# One for the kids



## AcesFull (Jan 6, 2008)

Well it didn't take much time before changing what I thought was a good temporary layout to a new temporary layout. After marshalling for my kids, I determined the 6" turns had to go. Thanks to Crimnick who hooked me up with some more track I was able to put together this layout while I await the rest of the parts for the final, which by the way, I have no idea how you guys do a final layout. I seem to want to change it every week. Maybe I should build the track I originally intended and run it for quite a while to make sure I am satisfied before going permanent. Anyways, tell me whatcha think? It's pretty fast and fun with minimal de slots.


----------



## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)

I like it -- some nice straights for the throttle junkies plus a couple of twisty bits for some challenge. Looks good!


----------



## AcesFull (Jan 6, 2008)

Well, I just got in from 2 hrs of racing with the kids and it's a great layout for them. My 3 year old can even keep it on the track. We had a blast.

doba - I know it's not much to look at considering that beauty you've got, but it'll do for now. Your track rocks and the more pics I see of it the more inspired I get to go all the way with it.


----------



## Dragula (Jun 27, 2003)

Your kids will never forget the times you guys spend laughing and racing,memories like that you cant buy.
God Bless!
DRAGjet
Christian


----------



## RiderZ (Feb 19, 2007)

*!!!*

Sweet layout.As long as your having fun-thats the main thing.Everytime i go and race it reminds me of the fun my brother & i had when we were younger!!!:thumbsup:


----------



## bobhch (Apr 22, 2007)

*Looks like fun to me!*

Yeah that looks like a fun track to run on AcesFull. You can run lots of different types of cars on it and long straights are always fun! Zoom baby....Zoooooom!

Nice job, Bob...zilla


----------



## AcesFull (Jan 6, 2008)

bobhch said:


> Yeah that looks like a fun track to run on AcesFull. You can run lots of different types of cars on it and long straights are always fun! Zoom baby....Zoooooom!
> 
> Nice job, Bob...zilla


]

Right now I've only got 3 different cars to run. I've got the 8 Super G + cars, a Racemaster GT-40 and SRT car. There seems to ba a huge difference in the way these cars drive. The Super G's stick like glue and are very fast. The GT-40 was actually the fastest on the track because of the way it fishtails and hangs on through chicanes. The SRT just sucks. I cannot keep it on the track no matter what layout I do, seems like the frontend is light and it deslots easily. They're all fun though.


----------



## Pomfish (Oct 25, 2003)

AcesFull said:


> ]
> 
> Right now I've only got 3 different cars to run. I've got the 8 Super G + cars, a Racemaster GT-40 and SRT car. There seems to ba a huge difference in the way these cars drive. The Super G's stick like glue and are very fast. The GT-40 was actually the fastest on the track because of the way it fishtails and hangs on through chicanes. The SRT just sucks. I cannot keep it on the track no matter what layout I do, seems like the frontend is light and it deslots easily. They're all fun though.


Your SRT may have a wobbly front end, try putting the front axle and tires form one of the Super G's into the SRT and see if that doesn't solve the light front end/deslot problem.
Also, try some lower profile rear tires. Those SRT's will stick very well when set up properly.

Nice track!
Thanks,
Keith


----------



## AcesFull (Jan 6, 2008)

Pomfish said:


> Your SRT may have a wobbly front end, try putting the front axle and tires form one of the Super G's into the SRT and see if that doesn't solve the light front end/deslot problem.
> Also, try some lower profile rear tires. Those SRT's will stick very well when set up properly.
> 
> Nice track!
> ...


Right now I just run em' outta the box as is. I do not have the experience or tools required to work on these little guys. Once I finish the "big" track I'm working towards and run it for a while, I'll have an idea as to how the cars handle and can work from there. I do not want to make a bunch of changes to the cars as I change layouts while waiting on parts. Can anyone give me a parts/tools list of items that I will need to aquire to work on the cars though?


----------



## Crimnick (May 28, 2006)

:thumbsup:


----------



## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Compare the "SRT" setup to the GT-40, which is also an SRT (unless it's an Aussie release, which are Super G's). 
They best initial investment in tools you need would be a wheel puller and a wheel press to get rid of the Super G hubs. Outside of that, you really don't need anything much to work on inline cars. With a set of hobby needlenose pliers and flat screwdriver you could take either of those two cars down to pieces.


----------



## AcesFull (Jan 6, 2008)

SwamperGene said:


> Compare the "SRT" setup to the GT-40, which is also an SRT (unless it's an Aussie release, which are Super G's).
> They best initial investment in tools you need would be a wheel puller and a wheel press to get rid of the Super G hubs. Outside of that, you really don't need anything much to work on inline cars. With a set of hobby needlenose pliers and flat screwdriver you could take either of those two cars down to pieces.



You are correct, the GT-40 is also an SRT car. I swapped bodies between the GT-40 and my other SRT (Cobra Daytona Coupe #9), just to see if the body had anything to do with it and it definetely does. No matter what chassis the Cobra body is on it just handles much differently. The GT-40 just power slides around all the corners on either chassis, but it stays in slot. Love that GT-40, gonna have to buy some more.


----------



## roadrner (Jul 21, 1999)

Nice layout. Looks like it's gonns be a fun run! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: rr


----------



## christos_s (Jan 16, 2008)

*Cross-over?*

It is a very good track for all the reasons, all said so far.

To give you one additional consideration, and reason to change once again...LOL, only crossover tracks have equal inside/outside lane lengths. This has a shorter inside lane and a built-in advantage thereof... 

Have fun


----------



## Ligier Runner (Nov 29, 2004)

I dig it. You've got that nice long straight plus 3 or 4 other areas to "goose" it. I really like it. Also, you've got some nice open area to work with for scenery if you desire.


----------



## christos_s (Jan 16, 2008)

And a trick:
by adding banks at the ends of long straights you can effectively elongate the run because you can keep up speed (almost top speed) into the next straight

This layout had 3 straight sets separated by 2 banks, adding up to a total of 12 9" straights and the 2 banks = 11'6" of throttle.. on a table 5'7" long!


----------



## AcesFull (Jan 6, 2008)

christos_s said:


> It is a very good track for all the reasons, all said so far.
> 
> To give you one additional consideration, and reason to change once again...LOL, only crossover tracks have equal inside/outside lane lengths. This has a shorter inside lane and a built-in advantage thereof...
> 
> Have fun


Yea, the inside has a shorter run but also has to go slower into the corners. But, I really am not concerned as this is only temporary. The layout I'm building towards has crossovers that should equal out lap length per lane. Where can I get info on the length of the inside and outside lanes of Tomy AFX track pieces, that way I can figure it out on paper?


----------



## Ligier Runner (Nov 29, 2004)

Go here to Greg Brauns' site, click on the Track link (under the Track section) and scroll all the way to the bottom of the page.

http://www.hoslotcarracing.com/index.html


----------



## christos_s (Jan 16, 2008)

*Measure by string*



AcesFull said:


> Yea, the inside has a shorter run but also has to go slower into the corners. But, I really am not concerned as this is only temporary. The layout I'm building towards has crossovers that should equal out lap length per lane. Where can I get info on the length of the inside and outside lanes of Tomy AFX track pieces, that way I can figure it out on paper?


The old empirical method is to lay string along the curve length, mark it, pull it straight and measure. Still works :thumbsup:
String-measure one piece or many at a time, add and multiply, etc


----------



## AcesFull (Jan 6, 2008)

Wow, the difference is pretty big. I measured each lane lap length. They are as follows

Lane 1: 39.90'
Lane 2: 39.12'
Lane 3: 38.04'
Lane 4: 37.84'

Should I try to make my final design track have equal lap lenghts for each lane even though the outside lane is much easier to drive than the inside lane?


----------



## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

> Should I try to make my final design track have equal lap lenghts for each lane even though the outside lane is much easier to drive than the inside lane?


In my opinion, no, don't try to make the lap lengths equal. Several reasons. First, the more differences between the lanes the more different driving challenges you'll face on the track. If you are running alone, you versus the clock, this will give you four unique driving challenges to test yourself against to obtain the best time or most number of laps for each lane. 

Second, other than on a dragstrip (and some may argue not even then) no two lanes are exactly the same. The gutter lanes always provide the most variability between minimum and maximum radius turns per lap, and the sequence of the lanes and their relationship to the straights where you gain speed matters a great deal. For example, when you have the tightest inside lane at the end of the longest straight you probably aren't going to be able to squeeze as much speed out of that straight as the cars outside of you. Or maybe you can, through superior driving skills.

Finally, when you race against others you will always want to move from lane to lane so that over the course of the whole race every driver races for the same amount of time in every lane. This pretty much equalizes the track conditions for all racers. Using lane rotation everyone faces the same challenges over the course of a race and everyone gets to experience the unique challenges that each lane offers. 

Does this make sense and help quell the desire for equal lane lengths?


----------



## AcesFull (Jan 6, 2008)

AfxToo said:


> Does this make sense and help quell the desire for equal lane lengths?


Makes perfect sense to me. It would probably be difficult to get them exact anyhow. I like the idea of a lane rotation for drivers as well.

One thing that I have noticed also is how changing your view of the track (i.e. standing at the corner of the table vs standing at the side), impacts the way you drive the car into and out of the turns. Now I think I have to reconsider how I build the driver stations. I think I would like every lane to be able to be run from any of the 4 driver stations and maybe even hooh up some stations at the table ends. This would give drivers the option of driving from what they feel is the best veiwpoint to drive their particular lane the best. This may add quite a bit of difficulty to the overall wiring, but I think it would be worth it.


----------



## Ligier Runner (Nov 29, 2004)

AcesFull said:


> One thing that I have noticed also is how changing your view of the track (i.e. standing at the corner of the table vs standing at the side), impacts the way you drive the car into and out of the turns.


It very much does affect the way you drive. It's something to definitely consider.

Also, I had the pleasure of running on my track against someone else who had some real talent for driving. He was in the next to farthest outside lane and I took the very inside lane. It was definitely fun for me to try and keep up knowing that I had some tight turns to negotiate. It would constantly go back and forth as to who had the lead.

Just for info purposes on my track, the difference between the outside lane and the inside lane is 2.356 feet. You're showing just over 2 feet.


----------



## christos_s (Jan 16, 2008)

AcesFull said:


> ...
> Should I try to make my final design track have equal lap lenghts for each lane even though the outside lane is much easier to drive than the inside lane?


I dont agree with Afx and Ligier. I would try to equal them out - nothing will make them identical, they'll always have character but I'ld bring them as close as possibe. Crossing lanes or a cross in the layout apart from evening out lap lengths would distribute inside and outside turns. With careful placement of the crosses you can give both drivers similar challenges.

And to counter the point of a "worse" driver keeping up with a "better", what if the drivers are of the same skill?

On a personal note, I got tired of lane differences when I did have them built in. Even though I get little competition time, basically with my kids, I found the "unfair" or "let me try this one" distracting from the racing. Car differences and driver characters were plenty variations.


----------



## rudykizuty (Aug 16, 2007)

I used to think that all lap lengths had to be the same too. But I have learned two things in this regard in my short time with the hobby:

a) having all lanes the same length is tough to accomplish. It sorely limits design possibilities (not to mention, the track design I'm interested in building has no overs and unders)

b) as has been already pointed out, each lane provides a different driving experience. I have found this to be a source of added interest when I am running my cars. 

All in all, I've come to the conclusion that differences in lap length from lane to lane are okay, provided that the longer lengths are for the lanes easier to drive and offset the tighter driving required on the shorter lanes. 

Just my $0.02


----------



## Scafremon (Dec 11, 2006)

AcesFull said:


> One thing that I have noticed also is how changing your view of the track (i.e. standing at the corner of the table vs standing at the side), impacts the way you drive the car into and out of the turns. Now I think I have to reconsider how I build the driver stations. I think I would like every lane to be able to be run from any of the 4 driver stations and maybe even hooh up some stations at the table ends. This would give drivers the option of driving from what they feel is the best veiwpoint to drive their particular lane the best. This may add quite a bit of difficulty to the overall wiring, but I think it would be worth it.


The view is something to consider, and if feasible, address with the locations of your driver stations. For example, if your longest, fastest straight is right under your driver's noses, it makes it more difficult to follow the car, and requires lot's of head movement. If your drivers are on other side, they can follow the car mostly with moving eyes.

But even knowing that, my current track build does not follow that logic. It was the lesser sacrifice, compared to other track features.

As far as lane selectivity at each station, it would be a nice feature, and one I was considering on previous track build. I was even going to wire up (8) drivers stations, each with lane selectivity, so you had many choices of where to stand. And as much fun as it is to run the wiring, I think you might be surprised at what the lane selection option will entail, especially if you decide to do more then a single power tap. 

I'd suggest you keep that option in mind, but start by wiring a single lane to each station area, and from each station to each power tap. When you get done with that, if doing the same wiring three more times sounds like fun, then carry on.

On my last table (2-4x8's in "L" shape), I used approx 1000 feet of wire, just for my stations and multiple lane taps. When I was done, I was, well, done with wiring.


----------



## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

I'd have to agree that creating even lanes is limiting to track design and generally a waste of time. Of all the tracks I've had, maybe a few have asked "How long is it?", never "How long is each lane?"...generally I think it's a track owner's phobia 

For a different track "feel", I think directional switching is plenty, like having two completely different layouts. Although having raced on Hiram Durant's Bowman track does provided an interesting albeit frustrating perspective...2 stations on the front, one on the left end, one on the back towards the left end. :freak:


----------



## Scafremon (Dec 11, 2006)

SwamperGene said:


> Of all the tracks I've had, maybe a few have asked "How long is it?"







> For a different track "feel", I think directional switching is plenty, like having two completely different layouts.


Gene, quick question:

On my last track, I put a reversing switch at each station. For my new track, I want to just have a single main reversing switch for all lanes. I haven't yet went back to wiring diagrams to see how this might be accomplished, but I am thinking it should be fairly easy. I'm running all my track wiring to a central terminal box cabinet (track taps, controller stations) and this box will also house my power relay (with a switch), and the input for my PC and P/S. 

What type of switch will I need to reverse all lanes, and where would it be in the schematic?


----------



## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Scaf you'd wire it the same way, just put a single switch before the lane wires split off. Just remember that by doing it with one switch you are changing the track's polarity. Personally, I'd be a little leary about doing it that way these days with so many affordable but usually positive gate electronic controllers on the market. 
You can still use individual switches and consolidate it all into one location...it's a so-so image but here's a six-lane setup I did:


----------



## Scafremon (Dec 11, 2006)

Hmmm...I need to school myself on the polarity issue.

I think I will just wire up for one direction at this time, and save adding the reversing option for a future enhancement. 

While I am all for designing everything _and _the kitchen sink from the start, if there is one thing I learned from building my first track, it is that plumbing it for the kitchen sink was not worth the effort.

One more question: What size wire do you use when wiring up a track? I'm using 16ga stranded (salvaged from my first track) and it is a PITA to work with. I just mounted a 12x12x4 terminal cabinet under the table to house all my TB's, but I can see now that while this should be big enough for the number of TB's I am installing in it, the wire size is going to make it tough to try and do a clean wiring job. With 4 stations, 3 power taps, and 1 timing track, I have 45 wires coming into this box from the table, and then still ahve to jumper them all together.

I'm doing something wrong here.


----------



## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

I use 14 stranded, with short (12" or so) 16 AWG jumpers soldered to the track for power taps. Getting late here on the East Coast :freak:, I'll try to throw some tips together tomorrow...terminal blocks are the key here.


----------



## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

> What size wire do you use when wiring up a track?


I use 10 awg low voltage outdoor lighting wire for the main feeds and 12 awg version of the same wire for jumpers. Inexpensive and a lot of current capacity.


----------



## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

> I have noticed also is how changing your view of the track (i.e. standing at the corner of the table vs standing at the side), impacts the way you drive the car into and out of the turns


Absolutely. I've also observed that drivers tend to drive slower the further away the car is from them. When most of the technical parts of the layout are on one end of the table the drivers who are at the drivers stations nearer the technical end will typically handle the technical section better. Distributing the degree of difficultly around the layout to the extent you can seems to make sense, especially for larger layouts.


----------



## Scafremon (Dec 11, 2006)

SwamperGene said:


> I'll try to throw some tips together tomorrow...terminal blocks are the key here.


I look forward to the tips, and your preferred choice of terminal blocks. I'm using barrier TB's, and I can see where using a different type of block could make things much easier.


----------



## Scafremon (Dec 11, 2006)

AfxToo said:


> I use 10 awg low voltage outdoor lighting wire for the main feeds and 12 awg version of the same wire for jumpers. Inexpensive and a lot of current capacity.


Good idea! Even at the larger gauge you are using, the insulation on that wire makes it much easier to work with then the TFFN wire I am using.


----------



## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

With the low voltage lighting cable you can also get insulation displacement (IDC) style quick connectors, or "t-taps," (http://www.elights.com/p8651.html) that will allow you to connect the power jumpers from your track rails to the 10 awg cable without soldering or the need for terminal strips. The tap connector shown can accommodate 18 awg taps hooking into the 10 awg cable, which is just fine even though I tend to use a heavier gauge tap. 

You could literally run one 10 awg cable for each lane right down the middle of the underside of your table and use IDC taps to connect these to the track jumpers for each lane. I think this would result in a very simple and clean looking wiring installation.


----------



## Scafremon (Dec 11, 2006)

If we were limited to the type of connectors that come with malibu light kits, then I could see having connectivity problems, but those look much more solid.

I'm really liking this wiring idea AFXToo - thanks for sharing!


----------



## TK Solver (Mar 18, 2004)

If four children of roughly equal ability raced on this track, the driver in the outside lane would consistently win because they could take most of the turns much faster. So the question becomes, would you rather try to convince the kids to rotate between lanes so that they could take turns winning (sounds kinda silly when it's put that way) or design the track with a single overpass so that all lanes get roughly equal time in the faster lanes around the curves. Seems to me that an overpass is much simpler to implement, especially on a temporary layout where you're not concerned about landscaping issues.


----------



## AcesFull (Jan 6, 2008)

TK Solver said:


> If four children of roughly equal ability raced on this track, the driver in the outside lane would consistently win because they could take most of the turns much faster. So the question becomes, would you rather try to convince the kids to rotate between lanes so that they could take turns winning (sounds kinda silly when it's put that way) or design the track with a single overpass so that all lanes get roughly equal time in the faster lanes around the curves. Seems to me that an overpass is much simpler to implement, especially on a temporary layout where you're not concerned about landscaping issues.


Since it is only temporary I really don'y care about who will have the advantage. As far as my kids go, they are not equal, as a matter of fact only my 7 year old really cares to compete, while the 5 year old will just drive paying no attention to where she is in a race. Then there's my 3 year old who cannot look at the track and operate his controller at the same time. I built it this way because it gets rid of 6" turns and they can all keep their cars on the track now. The final design I'm building towards also will not have 6" turns, but it does have overpasses and a closer overall lap length.


----------



## TK Solver (Mar 18, 2004)

3 little racers... You're a lucky man! Enjoy every minute.


----------



## AcesFull (Jan 6, 2008)

TK Solver said:


> 3 little racers... You're a lucky man! Enjoy every minute.



I actually have 4 with another in the oven.:thumbsup:


----------

