# General Lee kit pulled?



## bigdaddydaveh

I just heard a rumor that Round 2 has been asked to pull the General Lee kits from production? Of all the stupid PC .... can anyone confirm?


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## Richard Baker

Haven't heard of it, but anybody who wants to jump on that bandwagon can request every thing they can find offensive. Today it is a flag which is an issue, but there will always be some trendy outrage for people to task themselves with purging.

Ironically it has spiked sales of that flag instead of diminishing them.


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## slotcardan

...........


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## Richard Baker

It is a lot easier to attack some symbol than deal with the fact you can't pump a disturbed mind full of drugs and pretend he is cured.


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## bigdaddydaveh

Seems stupid to pull the kit because of the flag. I don't care for the flag myself but the vehicle is historically significant. Why not do like Revell Germany and issue the decal with a big red rectangle?


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## djnick66

Probably because Warner Brother (I think its them) has said they will not license any Dukes cars (they were talking about die casts but I can assume models would be affected) with the Confederate Flag. I suspect the kits will hang around just not with the decal.

This reminds me of when my shop got in a shipment of Japanese made German plane kits via a European importer and all of the boxes had been opened and the swastikas punched out of the decal sheet with a hole punch.


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## RMC

welcome to the land of the easily offended !.....(wimps)


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## SUNGOD

Ridiculous. I saw something about this on the news and I wasn't even aware it was regarded as a racist flag by some people. All I remember it from is the Dukes of Hazard. 

Ok the show was pretty awful (except for Daisy and the General Lee) but I hope the car isn't cancelled too.


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## apls

I was at Walmart yesterday and the kit was still on sale, even though Walmart said that they would stop selling confederate flags. Remember Captain America, the first Avenger? You would have to real real hard to see the swastika on the Nazi uniforms. Not a fan of insurrection, since that is what the flag stand for, since. But our P.C. runs amok at times, the General Lee should continue it's a part of Americana. The question is, how will this effect the reinactors? The ban is for public property, I thought.


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## swhite228

POSTED ON YAHOO...


Yahoo Autos reached out to Warner Bros. Consumer Products, the branch of the movie studio that licenses toys from the series, asking about the General Lee’s status. This was the official reply:





> Warner Bros. Consumer Products has one licensee producing die-cast replicas and vehicle model kits featuring the General Lee with the confederate flag on its roof–as it was seen in the TV series. We have elected to cease the licensing of these product categories.
> 
> 
> At the time the “Dukes of Hazzard” premiered in 1979 on CBS-TV, the placement of the Confederate flag and the naming of the 1969 Dodge Charger driven — and often flown — by Bo and Luke Duke after the South’s most famous general drew few if any protests, a state that persisted through the end of its original run in 1985. The show was based in part on the real-life exploits of bootlegger Jerry Rushing, who had named his old Chrysler “Traveler” (with one “L”) after Lee’s horse


The one they are talking about would be Round 2


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## finaprint

You guys know how chicken retail is of losing customers due to limited thought processes......................it is what it is. 

That flag really needs to go, it's historical to be sure but it also reminds people of a place we don't need to go to again. There will of course be collateral damage to match the overreaction. Think of the ones who already got one of the kits, instant investment there. The sky's the limit with unnaturally shortened runs like this.


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## BatToys

I was at the hobby store and two different boxes for the General Lee both obscured the roof.

I suppose they could replace the Confederate flag with the American flag?


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## hubert

I came across a random article yesterday which mentioned _Round 2_ in it - just laughed waiting for this thread to be created. Remember now, no political talk fellows. Because well, you know...

But seriously, I disagree completely with this move. We all know the flag represents itself to people differently and certainly we need to be sensitive. It is not, in and of itself bad. I don't own one but it is of historical significance where Richard and I hail from. I love it for that reason alone.

Let's outlaw New York Yankees ball caps next. The _Crips_ have long used this as a means to help identify themselves.

I've seen where this will lead. And it isn't pretty.

We've made anyone (non-black) who uses the '_N_' word today less than human - at least labeled a racist. Yet just days ago, headed home, at an intersection I hear a young ladies loud car stereo next to me pumping out a popular song laced with vulgarities and the refrain.... _N N N N N N N_.

Won't sell a model/toy car. Really?

There is a flip side for retailers like this as well. For each Company (Warner, Walmart, eBay, Amazon, etc.) I take note and will exact my revenge --- LOLOL (less money for you). 

Really is something to watch these days...


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## John P

Well, I'm not so much offended by the flag as confused. My southern friends say it's a symbol of pride. I don't get what there is to be proud of about a war fought in insurrection against the United States; that was, in part, to preserve slavery; and, moreover, LOST.

More to the current point, the flag flown over the SC state house was raised in 1961 to protest _against _racial integration and civil rights! It should come down for that reason alone!


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## 72challenger

Unfortunately, the war that ended 150 years ago only ended government-sanctioned slavery in the US. As with most anything outlawed, the black market will deal in it.

The current conversation of the flag is nothing more than modern "feel-goodism" in my opinion. After the flag is removed in SC and state flag changed here in MS, what will be next, the removal of the battle flag from all Confederate monuments? What about the removal of all Confederate monuments period? After the TN legis removes the bust of General Forrest, then what, removal of every mention of him anywhere? What about Forrest County, MS and institutions such as Forrest General Hospital? If we completely rid ourselves of any mention of the Confederacy, will it stop homicidal maniacs like Roof? 

This country has many more important issues to deal with than this in my opinion. And taking it off General Lee model kits is lunacy at it's finest.


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## Rob P.

The model building community here can do what governments and political movements can not and that is have a polite discussion of a subject (The Confederate battle flag) with out erupting into heated righteous indignation. If the folks going crazy right now with its erasure from society can't see the Orwellian side to this and other issues they are pushing, then we all may be in for some trouble. What ever happened to polite disagreement and where is the tolerance that the powers that be want Americans to have for everything but traditional American standards? I find some other things very offensive, (not the Confederate flag, to me its a history item from troubled times ), But I am not out demanding the things I don't like be utterly erased and stricken from the history books, people have rights here in America which (supposedly)recognizes the right of the individual, not mob rule. Folks with differing views and values need to be more polite to each other across the nation, and just be observant that we treat the other folks we interact with with respect and dignity, even when the two sides have an opposing view of something. I am glad to see that here the discussion is polite! Kudos to you Ladies and Gentlemen.

Rob


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## hubert

72challenger said:


> ... As with most anything outlawed, the black market will deal in it.


define _Irony_


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## hubert

72challenger said:


> ... If we completely rid ourselves of any mention of the Confederacy, will it stop homicidal maniacs like Roof?


Of course not. Those good people who died were easy prey for a lunatic. There's a reason he didn't do this where a gang was located or at an urban police station. 

And he is no different than the idiot who shot ten Amish girls (killing 5) in Pennsylvania. He follows the other Sandy Hook man/child who killed more than two dozen elementary school children. Before that were two punks in Colorado. The list goes on. It's easy to target the most defenseless of us. The act should be reviled and taught as the most cowardly, heinous crime a person could commit. They are sick individuals and should be treated that way.

Now he will probably make a few attorneys wealthy while costing the State of South Carolina taxpayer's millions for a trial -- in the end to incarcerate him till the end of his (probably natural) life.


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## djnick66

The funny thing is Wal Mart, Amazon etc say they don't want to offend anyone. A quick look at Wal Mart's web site shows they sell Stalin posters... and Amazon sells ISIS flags, Nazi flags, replica Nazi caps, etc. They also sell the actual "Confederate Flag" ie the blue flag with a white star. Pretty funny, really.


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## Rob P.

I would disagree with the term "sick". Sick implies that they are not aware of their predatory actions and could or should be helped. Evil is what Roof and others that commit these acts are and should be swiftly tried and executed. 

Rob


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## nautilusnut

The model company could easily get away with it by issuing the kits with the flag decal Minus the stripes of stars, which would be separate decals you lay over the larger one to create a rebel flag. Glenco did something similar with it's re-issue of the TWA Moonliner kit. The weren't allowed to use TWA on the decals. The decals were modified to say, "FAST-TA-WAY" You just eliminated some of the letters to get TWA.

Being from Mississippi I'm in the middle of the flag debate. Personally I feel this is concentrating on the tiny stuff and missing the big picture. Lets solve the big stuff FIRST. If the flag goes away forever tomorrow, nothing will have changed to solve the actual problem.


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## hubert

Rob P. said:


> I would disagree with the term "sick". Sick implies that they are not aware of their predatory actions and could or should be helped. Evil is what Roof and others that commit these acts are and should be swiftly tried and executed.
> 
> Rob


Though I believe some are sick, you're correct -- Evil is the more appropriate description. 

I don't even care anymore about the execution (because it doesn't happen much) but again you're right. Unfortunately, neither will happen. The only reason one of the Oklahoma City bombers was executed quickly - he rejected any appeals. Funny how most of these (father-less types) will exploit the system to no end.

Let his name no longer be mentioned. I don't even want Google indexing on him (though I need to sweep the top of mine from recent storm debris) -- LOL.



nautilusnut said:


> If the flag goes away forever tomorrow, nothing will have changed to solve the actual problem.


This is truth. Someone on these forums will start making good money on decals. I'm not worried about that. It won't change anything, in the end.



djnick66 said:


> The funny thing is Wal Mart, Amazon etc say they don't want to offend anyone. A quick look at Wal Mart's web site shows they sell Stalin posters... and Amazon sells ISIS flags, Nazi flags, replica Nazi caps, etc. They also sell the actual "Confederate Flag" ie the blue flag with a white star. Pretty funny, really.


If you don't laugh, you have to cry. I am ashamed of what my country has become at times.


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## BobbysMonsterModels

finaprint said:


> ...it's historical to be sure but it also reminds people of a place we don't need to go to again.


But it does appear we are going there again, or hasn't anyone noticed??


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## nautilusnut

Apparently there's a petition to remove the gigantic carving of the three confederate Heros from Stone Mountain. This is just too much PC for me. Following this line of thinking, shouldn't we DEMAND they tear down the ancient Coliseum in Rome? I mean, thousands of slaves and Christians and animals died there- just for amusement. The faces on Mount Rushmore have to go too- they are on sacred Indian ground. If the people whose lives depend on these sites are out of a job-who cares? We did the CORRECT THING, and isn't that important?


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## iamweasel

I think Warner Brothers is overreacting a bit but no business wants to get pulled into an issue such as this. Some people seem to think its some big ban on the flag which is also an over reaction, its simply an issue of State/Govt owned property not flying it. It is a symbol of treason, plain and simple. I have nothing against the flag, I have several types in my Civil War collection. While it may represent "Southern Heritage" to some, it has been allowed to be used for far more despicable reasons. Hopefully at some point Warner Brothers may change their minds on this issue.


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## Trek Ace

I would imagine that if the model is reissued without the accompanying roof decal, that third-party aftermarket decal vendors will provide the required artwork to finish the model to match the car. Such has been done with WWII German military vehicles.


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## mcdougall

nautilusnut said:


> Apparently there's a petition to remove the gigantic carving of the three confederate Heros from Stone Mountain. This is just too much PC for me. Following this line of thinking, shouldn't we DEMAND they tear down the ancient Coliseum in Rome? I mean, thousands of slaves and Christians and animals died there- just for amusement. The faces on Mount Rushmore have to go too- they are on sacred Indian ground. If the people whose lives depend on these sites are out of a job-who cares? We did the CORRECT THING, and isn't that important?


Isn't this what ISIS did in Nimrud ?
Destroying History doesn't erase it.....
Mcdee


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## nautilusnut

My daughter is archeology major. She cried when she saw the news footage of ISIS destroying the ancient statues.


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## aurora fan

Although the Confederate Battle Flag is a racist symbol flown by traitors who took arms against the United States of America, The Fictional Toy car General Lee isn't a racist car it is a racing car.

It's a damn shame some people hold dear the leaders and symbols of the Confederate States but history has shown they were wrong and its time to bury the past and the excuses for it. 

That doesn't mean you can't have a Dodge Charger or a Stuka Dive Bomber on display. Just don't glorify it or pretend its something it isn't.


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## Matthew Green

I didn't know there were libtards here. Being a native Georgian I am bowing out of this one. I already complain enough about it on Facebook.


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## John P

There's _all _sorts of people here!


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## bigdaddydaveh

Well, I ordered a 1/16 scale kit from an online retailer Wednesday who happened to have it on sale. I had been planning a parody build using some of the parts and decals from the kit for some time now and thought I had better get it while it was still available. It showed in-stock before and after I got email confirmation on Wednesday. Last night I got an email from the company saying the order was canceled and I was issued credit. No explanation other than "item N/A"  WTH? The irony is I just wanted the kit for parts to make a parody kit making fun of the whole General Lee car thing. While I personally cringe at the thought of a confederate flag used outside the historical context of a re enactment group, military cemetery, or museum setting, this is just stupid. I also feel my freedom of speech is being limited here. If people want to hoist the thing in their front yard or stick it on their car, that's their right and they should be able to do it. It does not make them racists or killers. It may be insensitive to others and I may not agree with it but they should have that right just as much as I should be able to purchase a stupid car kit if only to poke fun at the whole issue via parody. This whole thing is just plain stupid.


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## Y3a

Someone can make a fortune providing Confederate flag decals in a wide variety of sizes!


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## bigdaddydaveh

Funny thing is, this same retailer is still selling these:







I just ordered another 1/16 General Lee kit from another online distributor. I'm voting with my feet. Let's see how it goes this time.


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## djnick66

What bothers me the most is when someone or a group of people get together and arbitrarily decide to ban something "for the public good". Be it flags, salt, 18 oz sodas, etc. There is usually an agenda behind it, and not any real need. I see the National Park Service is now pulling Confederate items for sale from places like Gettysburg. Gone With the Wind is in the cross hairs now... I'm amazed at how fast and thorough this route of American history has been. It can't be totally spontaneous... has to be planned to some extent. People need to wise up because I am pretty sure the American flag will be next. It already is in a lot of areas... can't wear American flag shirts to school, can't fly them at your house, can't fly them here or there because someone might be offended... 

I went to Hobby Lobby to buy the big General Lee kit (they had a crapton last week). The flag issue sort of pushed me over the edge to make the purchase but I had been looking at the kit a long time just because it seemed like a cool big kit. I can't say I ever watched Dukes of Hazzard much as a kid, even. But, HL had pulled them all. They weren't on clearance either. Funny thing, though, is they had Lindberg's "Value Pack" Nazi plane set with the Messerschmitt 262 and Stuka... which even includes swastika decals. Go figure...


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## Richard Baker

If all the Confederate flags were removed two years ago would anything have changed?
A psychotic nut will do what a psychotic wants to do, even with a load of 'adjusting' prescriptions in his system. 
There is a driving need to do 'something' after a terrible incident- pass more gun controls is usually first. What he had was a semi-automatic pistol, not an assault rifle, Too many of that type of gun out there in the hands of normal citizens to try and ban that. Next best thing is to attack a symbol he chose to pose in front of in several pictures.
Everybody will feel grand about this and convince themselves they had made a difference.

Until next time.


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## nautilusnut

I make my living printing t-shirts for parks and museums mostly. EASTERN NATIONAL (the National Park Service) is my largest client. I supply many of the gift shops in the National Battlefields, and many have the Confederate Flag in a historical context. If they stop buying I might as well close shop.


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## SteveR

In the words of Confederate leaders:
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/what-this-cruel-war-was-over/396482/


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## swhite228

Nothing to see here...move along


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## Rob P.

Interesting article SteveR, yet lets not forget that the Civil War was not fought to end slavery or keep it. An early victory by the North would not have freed slaves, in fact the Emancipation Proclamation of 1863 did not free any slaves in States loyal to the Union. It was done to gather support from the anti slavery European Nations. It was not until the Thirteenth Amendment of 1865 that slavery was abolished officially, and the last slaves of that era were not freed until 1867 in Texas. 

The Civil War happened because of how the different sides interpreted the right of succession. And that argument is still as interesting and heated a topic today as it was then, because although the South lost, the right of succession for each state is still very debatable and has many supporters for and against that right. This article makes for an interesting read ........... http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/is-secession-legal/

The only good thing to come out of that conflict was the abolition of government recognized and supported slavery. Sadly, unregulated and criminal slavery continues in many countries and is very prevalent in prostitution here in the good ole U.S.A. 

Both sides lost in that war when it came to our government and the issue of centralized power in the U.S. yet both sides won, in that by remaining together, we became the dominant world power standing up for freedom and fighting tyranny. Which for my purpose brings us back to whether the Southern men and women of the era were "traitors" (A rather harsh term to just throw around, given what others have done since)and I would argue that NO they were and are not traitors. They were moved to act by patriotism to their state in most cases, not loyalty to a weak Federal Government. In losing, the Federal Government gained authority, and Nationalism propaganda became fervent in an effort to unite as a nation and lesson the loyalty to a state. However, the South did suffer under the Norths invasion, and the reconstruction after, which was rife with unjust and unfair occupiers. For the South, the Battle Flag became a way to symbolize or at least hold together some dignity,that unlike any other state or states in the Union, had made the attempt to challenge Federal authority over state rights. Its subsequent adoption by hate groups is sickening, and personally in that regard it offends me that neo Nazi, KKK, Aryan groups etc. abuse it to their vile ends. But as a symbol of southern pride, and yes a reconnected loyalty to the U.S. with its own distinctive regional history, it holds my respect, as it should for every American. It reflects the horrible trials we have endured in our continued growth as a Nation. There are far more flags with actual evil behind them that the media bandwagon could jump on. Why desecrate this one over an evil a$$hole who obviously never understood what it really represents? Not too different from those who revile and desecrate "Old Glory" which was the flag of a slave nation until 1865 and the thirteenth amendment. Should we pull it down as well?

Rob


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## mcdougall

All Politics aside for a moment...These Models are a 'HOT' item on ebay right now....
Denis


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## Buc

seems, in the end... he is getting EXACTLY the fall out he wanted to
achieve. Sad world, esp today.


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## Jimmy B

Well if Al Sharpton said it, it must be true. 

I'm going to back out of this thread now because if I get started I'll get kicked off this board forever


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## hubert

mcdougall said:


> All Politics aside for a moment...These Models are a 'HOT' item on ebay right now....
> Denis


Thanks for pointing this out. eBay is preparing to remove them ...


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## John P

Rob P. said:


> The Civil War happened because of how the different sides interpreted the right of succession.


Do you mean "Secession"?

Anyhoo, when this crapstorm kicked up, I looked up South Carolina's declaration of intent to secede (they were the first state to do so), and it's just choc-full of complaints that the North was trying to interfere with their slave industry, and providing sanctuary for their escaped slaves, and trying to emancipate their slaves and rob SC citizens of their "property" and their _right _to own slaves...

So don't anybody try to claim slave-owning wasn't a factor. I know it wasn't the ONLY factor, but it was a BIG factor. Even if someone claims it was over "states' rights" - yeah, the states' rights to keep slavery legal.

I know a guy in Alabama on another bboard who says he has four ancestors who fought for the confederacy, and even HE admits the war was about slavery, and the battle flag should be relegated to museums.


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## mcdougall

hubert said:


> Thanks for pointing this out. eBay is preparing to remove them ...


right now there are 672 listings in all categories.... How will they govern it? 
Mcdee


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## Richard Baker

John P said:


> Do you mean "Secession"?
> 
> Anyhoo, when this crapstorm kicked up, I looked up South Carolina's declaration of intent to secede (they were the first state to do so), and it's just choc-full of complaints that the North was trying to interfere with their slave industry, and providing sanctuary for their escaped slaves, and trying to emancipate their slaves and rob SC citizens of their "property" and their _right _to own slaves...
> 
> So don't anybody try to claim slave-owning wasn't a factor. I know it wasn't the ONLY factor, but it was a BIG factor. Even if someone claims it was over "states' rights" - yeah, the states' rights to keep slavery legal.
> 
> I know a guy in Alabama on another bboard who says he has four ancestors who fought for the confederacy, and even HE admits the war was about slavery, and the battle flag should be relegated to museums.


Moved to Birmingham Alabama in 1970- back that flag was everywhere, not seen very often these days. Most of the time the war is referred to as "the War of Northern Aggression". My brother in law was in the reenactment groups for a while, he would get all fixed up and as he left my sister would tell him sweetly- "Now remember honey, you're supposed to lose"

One thing I have noticed- a region of people will remember the last conflict fought on their soil in a special way, regardless of how they feel about the causes. When I lived up in New Jersey everything was about the Revolutionary War. Landmarks, plaques, museums, it seemed George Washington slept everywhere two trees grew...


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## iamweasel

There was also the issue that slave States wanted new States to be allowed to decide if they could/would/should have slaves when joining the Union. The whole Slavery issue has been downplayed to the point where people except it as fact that the Civil War had little to do with slavery.
Tip of the hat to Matthew for trying to derail a civil discussion.


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## Crimnick

mcdougall said:


> All Politics aside for a moment...These Models are a 'HOT' item on ebay right now....
> Denis


Slot car prices for the flagged General have doubled on Ebay....AutoWorld carries the Duke line in slots and die casts...they already started selling the General lee sans flag while ago...

And I read today that Memphis Mayor A.C. Wharton wants to dig up the bodies of Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forrest and his wife and remove them from a city park. 

Political correctness run amok....plain insanity....yeah lets desecrate a grave yard and toss out their corpses....:freak:


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## SUNGOD

Back to the car for a minute. Is this the new tool snap kit we're talkin here? I've read it's better than the old glue kit but it's still not that great.


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## apls

Yes, let’s get back to the car because ANY discussion about race is way above the pay grade of most. This sight is not managed by Fox News, sorry Matthew. There needs to be and should be a serious discussion about race, but here? The flag is a distraction from the real conversation, conversation not code words from those who fear the unfamiliar. I grew up in the 1960’s Dr. King was slain on the night Batman came on, Robert Kennedy was shot on my birthday, not to mention other terrible things that will continue to happen until people begin to talk about and not pretend that they don’t happen. The one constant in all of this from 1964 until now is, my love for model building, and that is why I am on this site, some of the posters have taken themselves from the thread and rightfully so. I see enough hatefully angry comments in other places, most distasteful, I never thought I would read the name Al Sharpton on this site and hope to never again. There doesn’t always have to be a boogie man, when you see the support from white Americans, during these events, it’s hopeful and it makes me proud to live in this country. Now back to the car, the top of the car is rarely shown in a commercial with Tom Wopat and John Schnider playing the Dukes. Just buy the decal from an after market dealer, banning this hurts the hobby. Next thing Lenard Skinnerd album covers will be banned.


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## Havok69

That definitely sucks for Round2 - didn't they just spend the money to re-tool a new version? I was planning at some time to build a General Lee diorama, jumping over something or other. 

We're really turning into a nation of wimps.

Good thing I will still be able to build it - I'll pick up a a '69 Dodge Charger kit, and print my own decals. Job done. Suck it Warner Bros...


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## SteveR

Havok69 said:


> We're really turning into a nation of wimps.


Are you referring to those who can't handle seeing that flag or can't handle losing that flag?


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## aurora fan

My Great Grand Parents were German but I don't honor statues of Hitler or Pledge to a Nazi flag!

Succesion is funny! The Texan Article of Secession was particulary offensive and when Tex Gov Sam Houston was called upon to pledge an Oath to the Confederacy he didn't answer 3 times and the crowd began to grumble and boo and he said

"When the rabble hiss, True Patriots tremble"

Houston was removed from office and died before the war was over but he died a True Son of the South. 

I do like the Dukes of Hazzard Car and the Movie The Outlaw Josey Wales among my favorite cool things and don't know what libtard means

God Bless Texas.


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## Havok69

SteveR said:


> Are you referring to those who can't handle seeing that flag or can't handle losing that flag?


I am referring to the reason why this kit is being pulled, and many other reasons why the US is losing it's spine. Anywho, I don't want to descend into a political thread, so I won't elaborate.


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## Model Man

clip.


SUNGOD said:


> Ridiculous. I saw something about this on the news and I wasn't even aware it was regarded as a racist flag by some people.


:wave: It's complicated. But no less 'ridiculous' than the nazi flag banned in Germany or the imperial flag of Japan, Apartheid S. Africa and similar. I just learned of 'Rhodesia' in the last weeks, under regrettable circumstances. I don't expect the distinguished flags of Britain, France and neighbors fly too well in some parts of the world, even these days.

Being a Northerner/Yankee/Nutmegger/Colonial (the _original_ rebels, but to your Crown), I don't speak for or fully understand all the nuances expressed by the Stars and Bars or any other flags mentioned. But for historical purposes alone, flag and symbols should not be censored.


It's easily understandable the Germans would want their symbols banned. But is it right to do so? These flags and still others unmentioned represent multi-generational wounds on all sides affecting hundreds of millions if not a billion people or more. Reflexive censorship drives that down rather than brings to light the underlying issues for resolve and understanding.

My question would be then, do military models have nazi/imperial japan decals/symbols? I imagine our civil war kits do have flag decals? They're not my thing, so don't know. If the nazi/imperial symbols are there, then the rebel or any other flags stay. If not, they go like the others. 

However, what then is the criteria? Stalin's Russia? Napoleon's France? How many other dictator and would-be world-conquerors are off limits? Saddam's Iraq? Does the entire historical tabletop gamers hobby and niche industry 'go underground'? The civil war re-enactor groups? 

The Dukes car is simple corporate appeasement and marketing. When the market shares turn, so will their whim. The more corporations try to emulate or express emotions and influence control beyond their scope, the more our society and the world suffers. Everything else is scatter to keep us distracted while their stuff goes down...

Speaking of specific corporations, this makes a couple blows for Round 2. Dukes must have done semi-consistent sales for them, they produced enough differing editions of the kit over the last few years alone. Perhaps they'll get a close-out payment of some kind from WB. Being a massive corporation, I'm sure WB will weasle out of anything they can, despite their ultra-billions. ... After this, it probly strays into topics beyond the hobbytalk purview. This has been a thoughtful thread to read.


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## djnick66

The odd thing is that slave states were part of the union too (Maryland and Delaware) but no one complains about them and their flags or the US flag in relation to them.


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## Owen E Oulton

Pulling this kit is a travesty and clearly shows that the marketing people do not6 understand the difference between a government building where peopl are forced to see this flag in an official capacity, and a model from an old TV show where you are completely able to NOT buy it... Truly, south of the border can be called the Benighted States of Hysteria. The banning of the swastika in Germany is not at all a valid comparison, as many have been doing in other places on the 'Net...


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## GordonMitchell

I'm saying that todays PC brigade are killing our heritage,we have Europe saying we cant have a Swastica on our German model aircraft depicted during WW II,its historically accurate why delete it we should be learning from it,same has to be said about the confederate flag,its too easy to condemn an image but once its gone we cant bring it back,and this is happening in the middle east where they are destroying human history and we are doing nothing about it but give an idiot a gun and an excuse to murder and we'll persecute every one of the populace because its the easy way out,nothing to do with the way the person was brought up its all to easy to blame a flag, a film,being in Britain I half expected the recent film Kingsman to get the blame for him going on a rampage in a church,I respect guns,I have used many in the right environment and miss being able to go to a range and fire one,I have watched many a gory film and read many history books,I was facinated by the French revolution but I didnt build a guilltine and cut folks heads off, as modellers we need to vote with our feet if they pull a license because of public oppinion hit Warner or any other producer where it hurts and dont buy the DVD or go to the cinema,its not the model or the toy or the flag or the emblem that killed it was the dissillusioned nutcase that pulled the trigger
I hope I have not offended any members here at HT but I am so fed up with the current society not standing up and taking the blame for its own misgivings

regards
Gordon


----------



## apls

Well put, Gordon. If this keeps up all Nazi references from Raiders of the Lost Ark, will be digitally removed. It all comes down to education, because if we were, Pancakes and rice would be effected. The term "aunt" and "uncle" were used in the south at one time to degrade African Americans, southerners at the time felt that they weren't good enough to be called miss, mrs. or mr. or sir. These are the last symbols of the Jim Crow era, think about that when you eating your "Aunt Jemima" pancakes and "Uncle Ben's" rice. Tom and Jerry blu rays, last year weren't released because of the maid. WE can't pretend that this didn't excist. I plan on concentrating on the outburst of humanity I've been seeing in recent weeks, if this keeps up, we will earn the name The United States of America.


----------



## Bubba 123

BatToys said:


> I was at the hobby store and two different boxes for the General Lee both obscured the roof.
> 
> I suppose they could replace the Confederate flag with the American flag?


hi,

a little history lesson here..
the "Stars-n-Bars", was a N. Virginia Militia Battle Flag.....
the "REAL" Official Confederate States Flag......
has 3-stripes; Red, White,Red & Blue Square in the upper left-hand corner.....
with a "Ring" of stars inside it, depending on where (time) during the War,
it had; 4, 7, and finally 11 stars ... 
1 for each state that joined the Confederacy...... 

I'm originally from Upstate N.Y....
But now live in West TN....
"I've" always been a "Rebel" fan... just that, no Race, Creed or Natl. Origin..

you can thank Hollywood, for making the Stars-n-Bars "THE" Confederate Flag..
An early 1900's movie; "A Nation Is Born" (I believe is the title, but may be off on a word or 2... PLEASE, feel free to correct me :thumbsup 

"Gone With The Wind", sank it into our culture.....

lesson over :thumbsup:
have a great time ..

Bubba 123 :wave:


----------



## BWolfe

Bubba 123 said:


> hi,
> 
> a little history lesson here..
> the "Stars-n-Bars", was a N. Virginia Militia Battle Flag.....
> the "REAL" Official Confederate States Flag......
> has 3-stripes; Red, White,Red & Blue Square in the upper left-hand corner.....
> with a "Ring" of stars inside it, depending on where (time) during the War,
> it had; 4, 7, and finally 11 stars ...
> 1 for each state that joined the Confederacy......
> 
> I'm originally from Upstate N.Y....
> But now live in West TN....
> "I've" always been a "Rebel" fan... just that, no Race, Creed or Natl. Origin..
> 
> you can thank Hollywood, for making the Stars-n-Bars "THE" Confederate Flag..
> An early 1900's movie; "A Nation Is Born" (I believe is the title, but may be off on a word or 2... PLEASE, feel free to correct me :thumbsup
> 
> "Gone With The Wind", sank it into our culture.....
> 
> lesson over :thumbsup:
> have a great time ..
> 
> Bubba 123 :wave:


Birth Of A Nation.


----------



## John P

So it's the _battle _flag of a failed insurrection against this country from 150 years ago.
An important piece of our national history, to be sure, worthy of a place in any museum.
Why would it be flown on a flagpole at a government building today, as if it was representing a current ideal?


----------



## ChrisW

Since we are talking history....
From what I've read, one of the reasons why the battle flag was adopted in the first place was to reduce battlefield confusion. In the smoke and haze of battle, soldiers would rally around the flag (you've heard the term, "Rally 'round the flag, boys!") but because of the similarity between the two, soldiers would often rally 'round the wrong flag.


----------



## ViperRecon

I searched the thread and didn't see this, so forgive me if I'm repeating, but you guys know that if you really want to build a General Lee you are much better off converting a Revell 69 Charger rather than buying any of the kits produced as Dukes merchandising, right? Accurate wheels are available in other kits or in resin from Fireball Modelworks and the decals are available in the aftermarket also. No big loss if Round2 stops production, whatever you may think of the decision politically...

Mark in Okinawa


----------



## Y3a

Somebody can make a fortune printing up some decals........

And....

Think of yourself as a farmer with a several hundred acre spread, and $1.8 million tied up in farm equipment (Tractors etc) and the Gov't said you no longer own your farm equipment you paid good money for. How would you feel?


----------



## Richard Baker

After Spielberg digitally cleansed 'ET' (replacing guns with walkie talkies) nothing would surprise me.
Let's just go full 1984 and remove anything which might be remotely disturbing from our past and shove it down the memory hole. 
While we are at it, remember the wonderful solution Kurt Vonnegut had where if anybody could do something better that you then you could report them to the government and they would make that stop so you could feel better about yourself.

Our world is turning into a bad TV movie parody of the future- gleefully...


----------



## Lou Dalmaso

lets discuss the irony of looking for replacements for this symbol of discrimination on the _BLACK_ market


----------



## bigdaddydaveh

Bringing this back on track here to the original question at hand, the second online retailer who had this listed as in-stock just emailed me an order cancellation. That makes two online retailers who had it in stock cancelling after confirming they had it in stock and letting me place my order.


----------



## bigdaddydaveh

ViperRecon said:


> I searched the thread and didn't see this, so forgive me if I'm repeating, but you guys know that if you really want to build a General Lee you are much better off converting a Revell 69 Charger rather than buying any of the kits produced as Dukes merchandising, right? Accurate wheels are available in other kits or in resin from Fireball Modelworks and the decals are available in the aftermarket also. No big loss if Round2 stops production, whatever you may think of the decision politically...
> 
> Mark in Okinawa


Thanks for the tip. What I need are the 1/16 Vector wheels and they only have 1/24


----------



## Zombie_61

Richard Baker said:


> ...Our world is turning into a bad TV movie parody of the future- gleefully...


If you haven't seen the movie _Idiocracy_ yet, you should. Not because it's a great movie--it isn't--but because it's sadly prophetic.


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## finaprint

'Think of yourself as a farmer with a several hundred acre spread, and $1.8 million tied up in farm equipment (Tractors etc) and the Gov't said you no longer own your farm equipment you paid good money for. How would you feel?'

John Deere already attempting that, saying in effect you are now leasing their farm equipment rather than owning it due to software copyright issues now before the copyright office.


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## starduster

I just bought two General Lee kits at Michael's and they have several more as well as the Sheriff's cars here in Oregon, and I've seen some at several Walmart stores as well. Karl


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## jimkirk

Now TV Land has pulled The Dukes Of Hazzard from the lineup.


----------



## Havok69

This is getting ridiculous...


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## bigdaddydaveh

No dice here. Michaels and Hobby Lobby have both pulled the kits. Hobby Lobby did have the stock car version but it does not have the wheels I need. So, does anyone have a 1/16th scale kit they'd be willing to loan me some parts from? I want to make resin copies of some pieces for a project. It's the only reason I wanted the darn kit to begin with. I'd gladly pay shipping both ways and provide some extra copies for your own use etc... PM me... 
Let the recasting flame wars begin, I don't care. Normally I wouldn't condone recasting but it but in this specific case...the licenser already shot himself in the foot.


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## Guy Schlicter

I think pulling the General Lee model and Dukes of Hazard is grossly overblown


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## Richard Baker

Guy Schlicter said:


> I think pulling the General Lee model and Dukes of Hazard is grossly overblown


?-
As is in a corporate over-reaction or as in being discussed online as a bigger deal than it really is?


----------



## MEGA1

Definitely not getting into a political discussion here, but here's the actual hobby news from what we know:

Warner Bros. is indeed pulling the license, as we know, which includes the Dukes cars made by Round 2. However, the license does not expire until the end of 2015, so Round 2 will continue to make these cars until the end of 2015. Everyone is currently out of stock of them, but we're expecting our restock over the weekend. So all of them are now available on our site to buy and we'll ship them next week. We'll continue to get restock until the end of Christmas this year, and at that point they will be discontinued.

Of course, at that point the best option, which I've already seen posted here, is to just buy a '69 Charger and then buy Confederate flag aftermarket decals that already exist, and make your own car. Same thing right? :tongue:


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## eradicator178

*Good Grief......*

Let's all just get a box of kleenex and pass it around. I have never heard such ridiculous hog wash in my life. You can't change history, this will be a part of this countries history forever. Like it or not. 

I live in a city in Northwest La where the flag was removed years ago from the confederate monument in front of the courthouse. Now there is a movement (which has only statues of confederate generals) to remove the monument itself. Anytime people has tried to suppress something it usually just makes it more desirable.


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## eradicator178

*Check Ebay....*

Check Ebay and see what this controversy is doing for the price of the General Lee replicas.


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## scooke123

If you ignore history you don't learn any lessons so history tends to repeat itself. A lot of narrow-minded people out there.


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## John P

Oh, I'm big on not ignoring history. I've complained many a time when a model kit company leaves the swastika out of a German airplane kit. But of course, I never want to see said swastika being displayed in ANY context other than historical.

Which is why I'll never understand why anybody would want to fly the _battle flag _of a failed insurrection against the United States anywhere but inside a museum.


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## Buc

probably bcuz there's alot of people who wouldn't mind starting ANOTHER one
soon!


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## John F

I was in the local Michaels recently. there were 2 General Lee kits on the shelf, the box art had no flag on the roof.


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## scooke123

I was mainly referring to the Duke's General Lee, I see no reason to exclude or quit selling it. It is an entertainment historical model and should be displayed as such. I don't see why anyone should be offended by a model. I understand the flying of the flag today - not really any reason to display a flag of a defunct country. I just want the people who would want to erase it or other references to the Civil War to be aware that trying to erase history isn't a good idea.


----------



## Jodet

John P said:


> Well, I'm not so much offended by the flag as confused. My southern friends say it's a symbol of pride. I don't get what there is to be proud of about a war fought in insurrection against the United States; that was, in part, to preserve slavery; and, moreover, LOST.
> 
> More to the current point, the flag flown over the SC state house was raised in 1961 to protest _against _racial integration and civil rights! It should come down for that reason alone!


You might want to bone up on your history: 

http://www.amazon.com/South-Right-J...436201078&sr=8-1&keywords=the+south+was+right


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## John P

Riiiiiight.


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## Jodet

John P said:


> Riiiiiight.


In the revolutionary war you would have been a Torie.


----------



## finaprint

'...probably bcuz there's alot of people who wouldn't mind starting ANOTHER one...'

Boy howdy.................beginning to wonder if I'm going to have to leave Texas, where I've lived for 60+ years. Some of these people are talking some pretty crazy talk around here nowadays. 

On the other hand, waiting to see our vaunted ex-governor blow it again on the national scene, he never did get it and he never will LOL. Stashing popcorn snacks and can't wait...............


----------



## SUNGOD

Bring Boss Hog back out of retirement (and his funny sidekick). He'll sort things out!


----------



## Y3a

This is no different than ISIS destroying antiquities.


----------



## ClubTepes

People should write to Warner Brothers and make their positions known.

Does anybody have an address?

I'd write.


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## ClubTepes

Y3a said:


> This is no different than ISIS destroying antiquities.


Interesting point.
Not sure I would agree with the severity when applied to the General Lee.
But I would agree when it comes down to removing statues and such.


----------



## Frankie Boy

Y3a said:


> This is no different than ISIS destroying antiquities.


LOL. Not even close.


----------



## Richard Baker

Not sure if it has been mentioned here or not, but the owner of the original General Lee used in filming is having the flag replaced by the Stars & Stripes.
Don't know if he is also replacing the name painted on the roof with a more PC one or plans on changing the signature horn sound...


----------



## 72challenger

Richard Baker said:


> Not sure if it has been mentioned here or not, but the owner of the original General Lee used in filming is having the flag replaced by the Stars & Stripes.
> Don't know if he is also replacing the name painted on the roof with a more PC one or plans on changing the signature horn sound...


Last I saw, the owner of a "star cars" museum was attempting to purchase it from Bubba Watson before it was repainted. I hope Bubba sells it instead of repainting it. He's got enough money he can buy any '69 Charger and paint it orange with an American flag on it. The "01" 01 should be in a museum so everyone has the chance to see it.


----------



## DCH10664

I think it's absolutely pathetic that anyone would change the General Lee just because some PC types are whining. The Dukes was never a show about hate. But some folks "choose" to see hate where none was ever intended. Basically it was a somewhat silly show, that was centered around two good looking guys, a really cool car, and Daisy in her famous "short shorts".
There was no hate about it. Unless you count Boss Hogg hating the Dukes. But if some people would bother to get educated, they would know the war between the north and south was NOT fought over slavery.


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## SUNGOD

It is pathetic and funnily enough I can't remember the General Lee with the flag being used for any racist purposes or for that matter anything remotely racist in the show. As you say it was just silly.


----------



## bert model maker

I saw somewhere that someone took 2 69 chargers and painted 1 orange and made a clone of the GL but replaced the flag & name on the roof with the stars & stripes & changed the name to GENERAL GRANT then on the 2nd. Charger, they did the same thing however, the car was painted a nice light blue. I read a few of the review comments on it and there were people WHO STILL COMPLAINED ABOUT A 1969 DODGE CHARGER WITH A FLAG ON THE ROOF AND A GENERALS NAME. There have been incidents where someone at a car show bri gs their GL replica cars and some idiot thinks its ok to vandalize the guys expensive car. It is A TRIBUTE TO A FAMOUS TELEVISION SHOW CAR, NOT A RACIST STATEMENT OF ANY KIND, BUT THERE ARE THOSE IDIOTS OUT THERE WHO THINK IT IS OK TO DAMAGE OR HURT OTHERS TO EXPRESS THEIR OPINIONS OR BETTER YET EXPRESS SOMEONE ELSES OPINIONS THAT THEY COPIED BECAUSE WITH YOUR "AVERAGE , EVERYDAY, MORON ", they ONLY FOLLOW WHAT SOMEONE ELSE DOES OR THINKS BECAUSE THEY CANNOT THINK FOR THEMSELVES, THEY JUST JUMP TO THE SIDE THAT IS WINNING AT THE MOMENT. In my opinion.


----------



## irishtrek

People tend to over react, it's a human thing. And some times those people are narrow minded.


----------



## Owen E Oulton

It still makes me wonder how they thought that the battle flag of the Army of Tennessee was a good symbol to fly over a South Carolina state house rather than one of the three actual Confederate national flags. They're claiming "History, history, history" when they're displaying an astounding lack of knowledge of said history.

In the case of the Duke boys, they're a couple of moonshine -running ******** who used the image as a statement of rebellion against all authority, not the Union per se. And they're fictional, not meant to make any political statement. The kids (and big kids) who buy the models and toys aren't politically motivated and the flag *on the car* is just a bright, shin
y piece of graphics devoid of any meaning. It's not like tha swastika in Germany where any display of the symbol at all is an open incitement to relive the horrors of 70-76 years ago. It's all in context.

Last year my IPMS chapter had a WWI theme for a contest and I entered a Mk. V tank done up as a Confederate tank from Harry Turtledove's _Great War_ alternate history series - just a simple olive drab colour scheme with a red panel covered by a blue saltire (no stars)... I took third place and no-one thought I was making a political statement (mind you, I'm in Canada, not the Southern US).


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## 72challenger

According to this graphic, looks like the SC flag is a mash-up of the Virginia and Tennessee flags.


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## iamweasel

Frankie Boy said:


> LOL. Not even close.


 Exactly!! But people thrive on knee deep hyperbole these days.


----------



## John P

Knee deep hyperbole. I like it. :lol:


----------



## Owen E Oulton

72challenger said:


> According to this graphic, looks like the SC flag is a mash-up of the Virginia and Tennessee flags.


Close, but no cigar. Flags have their own heraldic descriptions, which include the shape of the flag. The flag of the Army of Virginia is distinctly different in heraldic terms from the flag of the Army of Tennessee. Thy're very close, but the flag of the Army of Tennessee is the exact flag they were flying and is on the General Lee. Speaking of which, why is the car named after a Virginia officer with a Tennessee flag? Only Hollywierd knows... Maybe the Dukes have been sippin' too much of Uncle Jesse's 'shine, eh? Bragg, Polk, Hardee, or even Forrest would have been more appropriate. But then again, Hazzard County is set in Georgia.. Meeso confused!?!


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## irishtrek

Can't help but wonder about the reactions if that guy had been wrapped in an American flag. Would people be calling out for it to be removed from all state capitol buildings and such???


----------



## spawndude

I saw the MPC Dukes today. It didn't have the flag on the roof. Is this already a "PC" reissue?

Does this have this flag decal?


----------



## bert model maker

I bought a GL 1:18 diecast 2 years ago and it LOOKED like there was NO flag on the roof, but all it was ,was an orange square piece of vinyl used to cover the flag. This PC GARBAGE IS JUST GETTING TO BE TOO MUCH, I MEAN A FEW DICTATING TO THE MAJORITY WHAT WILL BE. Too many PC people who feel it is their lifes mission to come out of the woodwork because THEY FEEL OFFENDED BECAUSE A BASEBALL TEAM HAS THE NERVE TO CALL THEMSELVES THE TEAM NAME THEY HAVE HAD LONGER THAN THE WHINER HAS BEEN BORN. YOU GET THE MINORITY FEW WHO THINK THEY CAN HAVE EVERYTHING THEIR WAY. SOME PEOPLE WHINE AND CRY FOUL when they feel offended, enough IS enough


----------



## Y3a

Thin skinned is so transparent. Those 'easily offended' are immature and over-react easily. They aren't very good Christians, being unable to turn the other cheek.


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## irishtrek

Y3a said:


> Thin skinned is so transparent. Those 'easily offended' are immature and over-react easily. They aren't very good Christians, being unable to turn the other cheek.


Bingo!!!!


----------



## djnick66

spawndude said:


> I saw the MPC Dukes today. It didn't have the flag on the roof. Is this already a "PC" reissue?
> 
> Does this have this flag decal?


No the flag was removed from the box art years ago but was always in the kit... until now.


----------



## bert model maker

The people who CLAIM to be offended or at least SOME OF THEM dont even know what the real issue is, they just follow whats trendy at the time so now they are jumping on this bandwagon. You can spot these people as they are the ones always seem to have issues WHERE EVER they go the ones who always demand to see the manager.


----------



## Richard Baker

People seem to be in a hysterical frenzy about purging this symbol- now they are tearing down monuments and digging up graves. 

Personally I think it is easier to get mad and active about something like this instead of dealing with the really tough problems we currently have that have no clear solution.


----------



## djnick66

Now Fort Lee and Fort Bragg are up for renaming... sheesh. 

I guess this means too there can never be another Haunted Tank comic book or movie... Although the Russian version of Haunted Tank pretty much sucked.


----------



## wolfman66

I have couple of the MPC General Lee model kits and all come with the flag just look underneath the box and you see all contents that are listed inside the box and one being the decal Confederate flag for the roof of the car.Now all toys Dukes of Hazzard and dvd's and ect will no longer be in stores.Whats in stores noW that's it so get it while you can.Pretty freaking sad the world has come to this BS.In an us-versus-them world, someone puts up a flag, another person tears it down and puts up his own. Pretty soon no one remembers what started the war in the first place and the fighting becomes all about those stupid flags.


----------



## finaprint

Shouldn't we be more worried about the 1800+ people who each control separately roughly 3,833,500 people to get whatever they want?????

Or......................the billionaires who literally own us, despite how much we think they don't.


----------



## wolfman66

finaprint said:


> Shouldn't we be more worried about the 1800+ people who each control separately roughly 3,833,500 people to get whatever they want?????
> 
> Or......................the billionaires who literally own us, despite how much we think they don't.


Actually today and still climbing(see below) not that counting.But the only thing that going to worry about is me and what my plans are when go on Vacation soon:dude:.
Births today
350,759
Deaths today
144,727
Population Growth today
206,032
THIS YEAR
Births this year
73,847,508
Deaths this year
30,470,367
Population Growth this year
43,377,140


----------



## mcdougall

wolfman66 said:


> I have couple of the MPC General Lee model kits and all come with the flag just look underneath the box and you see all contents that are listed inside the box and one being the decal Confederate flag for the roof of the car.Now all toys Dukes of Hazzard and dvd's and ect will no longer be in stores.Whats in stores noW that's it so get it while you can.Pretty freaking sad the world has come to this BS.In an us-versus-them world, someone puts up a flag, another person tears it down and puts up his own. Pretty soon no one remembers what started the war in the first place and the fighting becomes all about those stupid flags.


Good advice Danny....I managed to pick these up the other day...

:thumbsup:
Mcdee


----------



## Jimmy B

So I wonder what the name of the football team in Washington is going to be now 83 years later...The Washington Rainbows?


----------



## aurora fan

Some of these posts are laughable. Now with the Redskins. We have to go there? My wife and kids are of Seneca Cayuga Heritage. I'm German like so what? But I always imagined if my buddys came over to visit my Inlaws, say for dinner and said "Hey, you Redskins cook up a good meal" They'd get beat senseless! These people don't play. 

Trouble is people sometimes don't know the stuff they say (name calling) and do (waving racist flags) hurt other people and they just can't figure it out I guess. 

The flag got popular again when white people didn't want their kids sitting next to black kids in public schools and to even think its cool to refer to a group of people as Redskins? Man, that's just crazy. 

I like the Washington Redskins but they could easily be the Warriors and General Lee is cool because its a cool Charger, not because its got a flag on the roof. I wish everyone could take a deep breath. It's going to be okay.


----------



## Frankie Boy

aurora fan said:


> I like the Washington Redskins but they could easily be the Warriors ...


No, you couldn't do that. The word _warriors_ would be obviously suggesting a pro-violence, male-dominated hierarchy.


----------



## aurora fan

That's pretty funny because I am a life long Raider fan. I always wished we could have a skull in the leather helmet instead of the white guy on the insignia. It would be more Pirate / Raider looking.

Funny nobody ever complained about Pirate Flags.


----------



## 72challenger

My question is why is there a hierachy of how offensive certain things are? I and many others are offended by what the rainbow flag represents, yet we are told we have to live with it because the small minority of people that it represents were able to gain a huge media push to normalize it. I also would like to know where the line is drawn in the purge of offensive things? I've already seen where the push has begun to remove the carving in Stone Mountain, GA. 

The best quote I've seen in this whole debacle stated that one of the prices one pays to live in a free society is the fact that one will be offended from time to time. Of course, it's quickly becoming debatable as to whether or not we still live in a free society.


----------



## Y3a

People who are immature are the ones most offended and over react. Removing the flag isn't going to stop people from being immature.


----------



## Frankie Boy

72challenger said:


> My question is why is there a hierachy of how offensive certain things are? I and many others are offended by what the rainbow flag represents, yet we are told we have to live with it because the small minority of people that it represents were able to gain a huge media push to normalize it. I also would like to know where the line is drawn in the purge of offensive things? ... one of the prices one pays to live in a free society is the fact that one will be offended from time to time. Of course, it's quickly becoming debatable as to whether or not we still live in a free society.


If I may ... 

You or anyone else in a free society — we can debate "a free society" later — does not have the right _not_ to be offended. Let me repeat that: you do not have the right not to be offended. However, there are some caveats to that, which I'll return to in a minute.

This most recent nonsense of eliminating the rebel flag from the Dukes of Hazzard model, et al, is just that: nonsense. PC nonsense run amok. “Best not offend anybody at all costs”, so must the corporate thinking go. Because contrary to my initial statement, society, and not just in the US but in Canada and many other first world nations as well, has seemingly come to believe that people possibly _do_ have the right not to be offended. That is a dangerous move. That’s what they hold to be true in places like Iran, Afghanistan, and China. 

The whole issue of the Confederate battle flag, albeit most recently ignited by a racist Neanderthal, is and rightfully should be about whether or not such a flag should be flown on government or public service buildings. That’s it. 

Why is this the issue? Because a democratic government should not only be, but _appear_ to be, the representative of _all_ its citizens. It must, therefore, be, and appear to be, neutral, egalitarian and inclusive. The flying of the rebel flag on a government building is the antithesis of that and, in that context, it is _rightfully_ offensive. That’s why the argument to bring it down is justified. 

Display the rebel flag, if you wish, in a museum, sew it as a patch on your jacket, get a tattoo of it, put it on the roof of your Dodge Charger. That’s First Amendment, free society stuff 101. But when it comes to a government building, no. Freedom of expression does have its caveats, as I mentioned earlier. It is a criminal offence to yell, “Fire!” in a crowded movie theatre, for example. It is a justified curtailment of your right to free speech. Flying the rebel flag on your front lawn? No problem. Flying the rebel flag on the front lawn of City Hall? Sorry. 

It’s unfortunate that the PC crowd has conflated the inappropriate _government_ rebel flag flying with every other _private_ display of the rebel flag.


----------



## irishtrek

People do not have the right to be offended??? BULL CRAP!!!!!


----------



## John P

^Quite reasonably expressed, sir.
(To Frankie Boy)


----------



## Frankie Boy

irishtrek said:


> People do not have the right to be offended??? BULL CRAP!!!!!


I did not say that, sir. I said, people do not have the right NOT be offended. 
It is the very underlying principle behind the First Amendment.


----------



## 72challenger

I appreciate your insight, Frankie. I, too, believe it was the right thing for SC to take down the battle flag from the government display. Now, whether or not it should have been just for a time or permanently I believe is up to the citizens of SC, who were not directly consulted on the decision. 

In my state, the citizens were consulted on whether or not to change the current state flag that incorporates the battle flag. We as citizens voted not to by a margin of 2-1. However, some elected officials have now passed ordinances to no longer offically display the flag in their cities. Others across the South have expressed forcing the removal of all Confederate memorials. 

My concern with this is two-fold. One is that I believe history should not be eradicated nor revised, no matter how uncomfortable it is, in order to learn from the mistakes made. Two is that the actions of certain MS elected officials and possibly more across the South give precendence to those Americans, no matter the number (as we've seen with the gay lobby), that are offended by Old Glory to remove it. Certain Native American tribes are just a few of the groups that come to mind.

So again, how far does the purge of all things offensive go, both in government and the private sector?


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## Frankie Boy

Under normal circumstances I would agree with your assertion, that a democratic, majority vote in favour of this, that, or whatever, is the right way to go. However, there is such a thing as "Tyranny of the Majority". 

The US Constitution has within it a number of sections that address this issue. James Madison wrote: "It is of great importance in a republic not only to guard the society against the oppression of its rulers but to guard one part of the society against the injustice of the other part." What that means is that under certain circumstances the federal government has the right, indeed the obligation, to step in and "do the right thing" irrespective of the wishes of the majority.

Just to give you a simple example, lets go back to 1860. Suppose the federal government said, "Okay, all you folks in the southern states, how many of you would like to keep slavery? Hands up." (tick, tick, tick) "Right, majority says, yes, so slavery stays." 
You see how that wouldn't work?

This obligation of the government to overrule the majority is almost exclusively restricted to issues of civil rights, not when it comes to the regular day-to-day administrative business of municipal and state governments.

The removing of Confederate memorials (unless on government property) I would, personally, be against for precisely the reasons you yourself state: "... history should not be eradicated nor revised, no matter how uncomfortable it is, in order to learn from the mistakes made". 
That is exactly why Germany, for instance, has not bulldozed Auschwitz.

As to your last question ("So again, how far does the purge of all things offensive go, both in government and the private sector?"), when it comes to the government, the purging by the government will of necessity continue as long as offensive things persist, which basically means forever because new, unanticipated offences will certainly arise. When it comes to the private arena, the government should have no business in that at all, ever. That's why you guys have the First Amendment.

“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” 
― Thomas Paine


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## Jimmy B

aurora fan said:


> Some of these posts are laughable. Now with the Redskins. We have to go there? My wife and kids are of Seneca Cayuga Heritage. I'm German like so what? But I always imagined if my buddys came over to visit my Inlaws, say for dinner and said "Hey, you Redskins cook up a good meal" They'd get beat senseless! These people don't play.
> 
> Trouble is people sometimes don't know the stuff they say (name calling) and do (waving racist flags) hurt other people and they just can't figure it out I guess.
> 
> The flag got popular again when white people didn't want their kids sitting next to black kids in public schools and to even think its cool to refer to a group of people as Redskins? Man, that's just crazy.
> 
> I like the Washington Redskins but they could easily be the Warriors and General Lee is cool because its a cool Charger, not because its got a flag on the roof. I wish everyone could take a deep breath. It's going to be okay.


Laughable indeed - my father's full blooded Native American and myself half. He was a passionate fan of the Redskins and could care less about the insignia or the logo - He had enough REAL worries to stress over like supporting a family on a limited income. Yep - I agree laughable


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## Havok69

Sums it up quite nicely:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbvDRY0O30E


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## hubert

72challenger said:


> ...
> 
> My concern with this is two-fold. One is that I believe history should not be eradicated nor revised, no matter how uncomfortable it is, in order to learn from the mistakes made. Two is that the actions of certain MS elected officials and possibly more across the South give precendence to those Americans, no matter the number (as we've seen with the gay lobby), that are offended by Old Glory to remove it. Certain Native American tribes are just a few of the groups that come to mind.
> ...


This kind of thinking is sadly missing from most of our electorate and I weep knowing you (we) are in the minority.


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## Frankie Boy

Much of what this (former?) Canadian (in Havok69's video clip post) has to say I agree with ... except point #2. Sort of.

I think it would be fairest to say that the American Civil War was not _just_ about slavery, or perhaps not _exclusively_ about slavery. 

Ostensibly, the Civil War was about States' Rights, which happened to include, among other things, a state's right to allow slavery. The two concepts are as immune to disentanglement as a Gordian knot. It would be like saying _Mein Kampf _was only about extolling the virtues of German pride and not about anti-Semitism.


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## Frankie Boy

I also agree with what much of what 72challenger has to say. I think that it's best for all concerned in the long run, that if you (your society, community, country, nation, whatever) has done something ignoble in the past, then it should be out in the open, seen for what it is, so as to be able to deal with it. Which means, learn from it, fix it if the thing's still broken. If you try to you hide it, then that sort of discussion cannot take place. That doesn't mean the issue has gone away, however.


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## Frank2056

Frankie Boy said:


> Ostensibly, the Civil War was about States' Rights, which happened to include, among other things, a state's right to allow slavery. The two concepts are as immune to disentanglement as a Gordian knot. It would be like saying _Mein Kampf _was only about extolling the virtues of German pride and not about anti-Semitism.


According to the source:

http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/declarationofcauses.html

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Cornerstone_Speech

Slavery was at the core, if not the principal reason why Southern States wanted to seceded - "States' Rights" was just a euphemism for "we wanna keep slaves" despite modern revisionism.

It's sad that the South identity is still stuck in the 1860s.


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## Frankie Boy

Excellent links! :thumbsup:


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## djnick66

I live in the South and the flag doesn't bother me one way or another. The current tempest in a teapot is just a feel good move by people who wont or cant do anything substantive. Blacks fought for the Confederacy. Slave states fought for the Union... it's easy to turn the Civil War into a simple us versus them, good versus evil type of argument, but it is not so simple. Plus, people forget that it was Americans fighting Americans. Literally brother versus brother in many cases. 

I can see not flying a Confederate flag over the governor's mansion or government building, but to try to totally remove it is absurd. Now they want to sandblast Stone Mountain... It's the same as Destalinization in Russia. Trying to erase one history and replace it with a new politically correct one. It reminds me of when I visited Soviet Georgia (Stalin's birthplace) and traveled up a mountain to Stalin Park. After a cable car ride and many many stone steps, I arrived at the top of the mountain, only to find a big concrete stand with two rusty footprints where a giant Stalin statue once stood. Ironically, there were many many bouquets and wreaths of flowers heaped up around the pedestal, indicating the true feeling of the residents versus the sanitized state feelings.


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## Frankie Boy

I had no idea what you were talking about, "sandblasting Stone Mountain". What's Stone Mountain? Thank gawd for google.

Holy crap. You being closer to the action, and hopefully closer to the reality of it, is this a serious suggestion, to sandblast Stone Mountain? 
If it is, _that_ is ISIS crazy.


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## aurora fan

In Oklahoma City, the President of the United States was greeted by hundreds of white folks waving dozens of Rebel Flags. Nice way to greet the President of the United States of America. 

Since he is the first black man President and Oklahoma wasn't even part of the Confederate States what more proof do you need the flag was used as a symbol of straight up racist hate against our President? Why else would you wave it in a black mans face? That's some sick @#%&

And Frankie Boy if your dad is full blood native American and your are half and you enjoy being called a ******* I don't have a retort. I'm sorry for your self loathing.


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## Frankie Boy

aurora fan said:


> And Frankie Boy if your dad is full blood native American and your are half and you enjoy being called a ******* I don't have a retort. I'm sorry for your self loathing.


What? I think you're confusing me with Jimmy B.


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## Jimmy B

First off Frankie Boy didn't post that, I did. So before so before making idiodic judgmental comments toward someone you know nothing about at least get the names strait. Second can you please tell me where in my post did you interpret me "enjoy being called a *******"? Third "self loathing" has nothing to do with it. It's called being resilient and not sweating the small stuff. Just because I don't get my ass out of joint over a football team's name doesn't mean I'm not proud of my heritage and who I am.


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## Frankie Boy

aurora fan said:


> In Oklahoma City, the President of the United States was greeted by hundreds of white folks waving dozens of Rebel Flags. Nice way to greet the President of the United States of America.
> 
> Since he is the first black man President and Oklahoma wasn't even part of the Confederate States what more proof do you need the flag was used as a symbol of straight up racist hate against our President? Why else would you wave it in a black mans face? That's some sick @#%&


As offensive as you may find it, and as offensive as it indeed is, those rebel flag wavers have the right to do that.

On the issue of the flag symbolism itself, we could be generous and say that the rebel flag has _become_ what you say it has, and did not necessarily represent that at its inception. But we can say exactly the same thing for the swastika. It is, in fact, an ancient symbol, representing well-being and good fortune. But I don't think too many regular folks are going to want to wear it as a pendant because of what it has _become_ after Adolph & crew decided to make use of it.


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## aurora fan

I am sorry I got the name mixed up and I apologize I'm just glad Carolina picked the Panthers and not the Cotton Pickers after all who could find offence at that. I don't care what ignorant people call each other but my wifes people take offence so I get it if they don't like the halfbreed ***** buck ******* white derogatory words and I'm sorry I can't get behind the flag of a failed insurrection against the United States of America. 

Frankie and Jimmie I am truly sorry for confusing the posts and am sorry for my bad language and remove my self from this embarrising argument. I want no further part of it. Please accept my apology.


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## Jimmy B

Ok bye


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## Frankie Boy

This a hot button issue. Emotions — on both sides — are bound to flair. 
Apology accepted.


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## djnick66

There is one in every crowd... this is why we can't have nice things in the USA any more.

I rest my case.


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## Richard Baker

I have lived in Birmingham Alabama most of my life and locally here it is not about the flags, it is about being gathered up in a sweeping judgement by those who know nothing about things here. It is still common to see file footage of the firehoses when covering a story about this city even though that era has long past.
Personally I do not care two whits about the flag issue- it is part of history and should stay there. What I do care about is that as a country we have some serious issues to deal with and the only thing people get motivated to do is yell about the flag.


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## Buc

Jimmy B said:


> First off Frankie Boy didn't post that, I did.


Go Jimmy!! 

Like you, my father didn't have any problem w/ the name either.
As he would say if he was still here, "If names tear you down so
easily, you just weren't built up right to begin with!"

People need to get over thinking they can go thru life NOT being
annoyed by someone and, omg, just keep truckin'!

I hear the pyramids have to come down now!! Dang Egyptians!!


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## irishtrek

Frankie Boy said:


> I did not say that, sir. I said, people do not have the right NOT be offended.
> It is the very underlying principle behind the First Amendment.


I stand corrected. 
Got an e-mail from Auto World today about a sale which included info on the General Lee, the license for these kits expires at the end of the year and cannot be renewed.


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## mcdougall

Yeah MEGA posted that info back on page 6...on July 3 Post 79....
Mcdee




MEGA1 said:


> Definitely not getting into a political discussion here, but here's the actual hobby news from what we know:
> 
> Warner Bros. is indeed pulling the license, as we know, which includes the Dukes cars made by Round 2. However, the license does not expire until the end of 2015, so Round 2 will continue to make these cars until the end of 2015. Everyone is currently out of stock of them, but we're expecting our restock over the weekend. So all of them are now available on our site to buy and we'll ship them next week. We'll continue to get restock until the end of Christmas this year, and at that point they will be discontinued.
> 
> Of course, at that point the best option, which I've already seen posted here, is to just buy a '69 Charger and then buy Confederate flag aftermarket decals that already exist, and make your own car. Same thing right? :tongue:


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## Zombie_61

irishtrek said:


> I stand corrected.
> Got an e-mail from Auto World today about a sale which included info on the General Lee, the license for these kits expires at the end of the year and cannot be renewed.


I think "_will not_ be renewed" is a more accurate phrase in this case.


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## Buc

in this hobby, take 'never' w/ a grain of salt!


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## irishtrek

Maybe they'll issue it minus the Dukes of Hazzard art some day.


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## f1steph

Won't be a bad thing to not re-issue this kit. The Charger in this kit has the wrong back window shape. The only thing you can use are the ''now banished General Lee and Confederation flag'' and the tires & Crager mags. So instead, I bought a Revell '69 Charger and built the Lee1. . But I've just found on Wikipedia that the current owner of Lee1 (remember, he paid around 300.000$ for it) said via Twitter July 2:
On July 2, 2015, golfer Bubba Watson, current owner of LEE 1, announced via Twitter that he would be painting over the Confederate flag on the car's roof
Gee, there goes his investment down the drain.... all markings on Lee1 were hand painted by the original guy that did it in the '78 for the pilot..... some people are really loosing it....


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## ThingMaker

Frankie Boy said:


> I also agree with what much of what 72challenger has to say. I think that it's best for all concerned in the long run, that if you (your society, community, country, nation, whatever) has done something ignoble in the past, then it should be out in the open, seen for what it is, so as to be able to deal with it. Which means, learn from it, fix it if the thing's still broken. If you try to you hide it, then that sort of discussion cannot take place. That doesn't mean the issue has gone away, however.


It's not about hiding our history. In fact the people who claim the flag is about "heritage" are actually the ones hiding the history of the flag. A heritage of what, should be the next question. The call for removing the flag is about acknowledging what the flag stands for- in this case white supremacy and a defense of slavery. No one wants to see that in public, especially on government property or public places. 

We all know the Civil War happened. No one is denying that. But we don't need to see a flag still flying today that represents a treasonous racist rebellion against the US to defend slavery. That's what the calls for taking down the flag are about.

It's like if the Nazi flag were still flying. It's offensive. But it's fine on a model kit representing the era. The confederate battle flag was more recently pushed into the public eye in the late 50s when the Civil Rights movement was gaining momentum. It was a not-so-subtle sign to African Americans to "know their place" and a thumb in the eye of the US government who may ask for equal rights and desegregation. So yeah, racism is behind it's modern usage as well as it's origin. That's why it's offensive.

However, its use in a historical context, in museums, or on products known to display it (like the General Lee car) shouldn't be an issue any more than a model of a Nazi tank with a swastika. 

By the way, slaves didn't build the Egyptian pyramids:
http://news.discovery.com/history/ancient-egypt/pyramids-tombs-giza-egypt.htm


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## Y3a

Does anyone care that blacks owned slaves too? Revisionist BS is making me sick. I researched the development of the mid-atlantic railroads and specifically the Norfolk & Western. To do this I spent many weekends at the countys' main libraries reading old microfiche copies of the newspapers. The civil war was much more complex than is portrayed today. I'm not going to fill you in, but you might just want to read of those times to see what I'm talking about. Also the advertisements are a hoot.


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## ThingMaker

Y3a said:


> Does anyone care that blacks owned slaves too? Revisionist BS is making me sick. I researched the development of the mid-atlantic railroads and specifically the Norfolk & Western. To do this I spent many weekends at the countys' main libraries reading old microfiche copies of the newspapers. The civil war was much more complex than is portrayed today. I'm not going to fill you in, but you might just want to read of those times to see what I'm talking about. Also the advertisements are a hoot.


The Civil War was pretty much about slavery (link has secession statements from many states that indicate slavery was the main factor, including the president and VP of the Confederate states):
Just summing up the article: "Others have made similar attempts to explain away the significance of slavery to the war. But like accused shooter Dylann Roof, whose manifesto clearly outlined his hatred for black people and his desire to start a race war, Confederate states and leaders at the time unabashedly declared that the Civil War was about maintaining the institution of slavery and propping up a system of genocidal, white supremacist oppression."

Also:









In any case, to your point (which doesn't apply to this conversation or the conversation in general), *wealthier* people owned slaves. If you owned land and money, well... you probably had some slaves. And it's said a smaller number of African Americans owned slaves (though there is evidence that some black slave owners bought relatives in order to protect them), but the majority were white. 

Anyway- back to model kits.


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## Y3a

Did you MISS THIS?

"The civil war was much more complex than is portrayed today."

I've read all this. There are much more informative and detailed threads at some other sites I read.


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## ThingMaker

Y3a said:


> Did you MISS THIS?
> 
> "The civil war was much more complex than is portrayed today."


No, why? That's what I responded to, so obviously I didn't "MISS THAT".  It really wasn't all that complex, according to the actual people who started the Civil War (read my link).


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## irishtrek

f1steph said:


> Won't be a bad thing to not re-issue this kit. The Charger in this kit has the wrong back window shape. The only thing you can use are the ''now banished General Lee and Confederation flag'' and the tires & Crager mags.


Actually R2 corrected the back window and it now has the tunnel shape. As for the wheels being mags they are not, instead they are supposed to be vectors, I think.


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## HabuHunter32

Ah..well. I guess we won't be seeing the Dukes of Hazard on CMT anymore either! It's hard to believe that in the 21st century. In a free country where presumably anyone can say what's on their mind. People can wear an American flag on their bottom that this is what we can't tolerate ! The Confederate Battle Flag ? History is just that...History. It can't be changed. Positive or negative it is in the past. Model kits that have made a lot of money for over 30 years can't be PC so now you won't see them in their original form anymore ? A sad state that confounds the logic of my way of thinking. However, this is a free country and business is business. I don't agree but like it or not it's their choice and Round2 can do as they wish. 

Mike


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## starduster

At least we here at Hobby Talk can discuss this not like the owners at Starship Modeler locked their thread I guess they are against people er ...... modelers discussing the General's being pulled, it's a shame that some people can't handle the hot model related topics anymore. :dude: Karl


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## irishtrek

Went out to Tammies Hobbies yesterday and they had 8-9 kit of the General Lee on their shelves, the original MPC box art that is.


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## John P

starduster said:


> At least we here at Hobby Talk can discuss this not like the owners at Starship Modeler locked their thread I guess they are against people er ...... modelers discussing the General's being pulled, it's a shame that some people can't handle the hot model related topics anymore. :dude: Karl


There's a pretty strict "no politics" rule at SSM. John lets it go sometimes, but if things start to get contentious, he'll lock the thread. The board is about modeling, after all, not politics.


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## starduster

irishtrek said:


> Went out to Tammies Hobbies yesterday and they had 8-9 kit of the General Lee on their shelves, the original MPC box art that is.


I went to Michael's on 82nd and found several there so I bought two, and they have the police cars too.

BTW do you have any idea where the game piece of a ruined factory ever went to after Bridgetown hobbies closed in Portland Ore ? that was one fine game piece. Karl


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## irishtrek

No I don't know because I'm not into game pieces like that. My nephew who knew the employees better than me might know if you're interested.


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## starduster

Yea I'm interested I'm also not into gaming only in how it was made, I'm thinking of making something like it to photograph some models in it, thanks. Karl

PS. And I really miss Bridgetown hobbies, was a great hobby shop.


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## irishtrek

Tammies has building supplies for rail road structures as well as Whistle Stop out there on 117 and Division. Just take your pictures in and look around comparing them to what they have available.


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## starduster

OK, no problem I was just wondering what he used for inspiration to build that diorama, thanks. Karl


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## david-5877

Well Round 2 says the General Lee is in and ready for purchase, they also said get them before the license expires at the end of 2015.


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## Jimmy B

Well I took the wife to Michaels and while there I strolled over by the models. Wadda-ya know. There was one MPC General Lee. And I had a 50% off coupon in my pocket. Got the General for 12 bucks. Carma got me though. Strangest thing. The chrome part sprue was bagged but one of the valve covers was still missing. I had to go through the whole R2 part replacement hassle but received the part in a week


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## rja

Did it have the flag decal?


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## Trek Ace

I just purchased one of the reissued kits from a local hobby shop a few days ago. Upon inspection, the box art has been altered to remove any sign of the flag on the roof of the car. The decal sheet, however, DOES include the flag.


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## Jimmy B

rja said:


> Did it have the flag decal?


Yes the flag is included


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## Owen E Oulton

They changed the box art years ago, over the last big kerfuffle over the Confederate battle flag. I've even seen boxes with the flag-less box art and a sticker saying "Flag decal still included!".


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## Havok69

This used to be comedy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHO1PprfmkY

Now it's almost reality...


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