# Seaview girder question



## Admiral Nelson (Feb 28, 2002)

Are the girders behind the window braces suppose to touch each other? I glued the control room onto the flying sub bay where the tabs are and the window braces are away from the girters. I always thought the braces were supports for the windows and thus had to contact each other. Am I wrong? I also noticed that there is no speaker and red light behind the flying sub hatch. I guess this is the outside shot reference and not inside as much.


----------



## Paulbo (Sep 16, 2004)

It doesn't look like you have the "glass" in place yet (or you were able to take your shot with zero reflection). The glass will fill in a large portion of that gap.


----------



## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

But not all of it!
Yes, the girders should be right up against the hull.


----------



## Admiral Nelson (Feb 28, 2002)

John P said:


> But not all of it!
> Yes, the girders should be right up against the hull.


I guess I'll have to reposition the control room. Drat, it's already glued.


----------



## gareee (Jan 1, 1970)

So was that a model error, or just a mistaken build?


----------



## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

gareee said:


> So was that a model error, or just a mistaken build?


I havent gotten that far but the kit is pretty fool proof as far as its engieering goes. The FS bay locks into the lower hull panel so there is nothing to screw up there. The bridge locks positively to the top of the FS bay with pins molded to the bay roof fitting into holes in the bridge floor (that need to be puttied in). So basically when you fit the bottom of the hull in place, that locks the bridge into position. If its too far back... thats an engineering problem or was done to avoid the possibility of too snug a fit (a little slop is better for a mass market kit sometimes). It should be easy to test fit the parts first then make any adjustments. :thumbsup:


----------



## Dave Metzner (Jan 1, 1970)

The two center girders touch one another while the other four rest on top of the the opening in the front wall of the control room then the horseshoe shaped girder fits into notches in the six L-shaped girders.

Dave


----------



## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

Ok there is going to be a "gap" between the girders and the glass in any event.

The way the kit is engineered is very good and the main parts for the Flying Sub bay, bridge area, lower hull, upper hull and window cap all fit very nicely. The position of all those parts is very positive and you really can't goof up.

The front girders fit fairly well. There is a little slop in the fit, which is good. I found the center two girders tended to want to lean a bit to the ship's right side. The upper horse shoe girder isnt the best fit, mainly because its pretty thin and due to its thinness it cant really lock well into the other girders. 

The reason you will get a gap no matter what is not because of the fit of the control room floor, how the girders assemble, etc. Its because the girders are flat along the front and the nose is curved. The nose bulges out away from the girders in the middle of the windows. 

_ (/_______ kit girders and floor behind curved nose

_((_______ curved girders behind curved nose


Here is my model taped together...


----------



## gareee (Jan 1, 1970)

That sounds like a design flaw then. Wonder if there would be anyway to heat them, and bend them into shape? Unless that's actually accurate to the actual models?


----------



## Trekkriffic (Mar 20, 2007)

Among other sources, I plan on using the FX Models studio scale miniature as a reference for shading and painting. Here's the link:
http://www.fxmodels.com/seaview.shtml

This photo shows how they got around the curvature issue. 








Looks like the window frames are straight instead of curved. 
From photos I've seen of the actual interior girders they are straight and flush with the windows. 









So... should we conclude that the curved windows in the kit are mistake ?


----------



## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

*Model of a model, set, or real sub*



> So... should we conclude that the curved windows in the kit are mistake ?


I think this gets back to what the aim of the/your model is... 

1) is it a model of a "real sub", assuming the Seaview was real. 

2) is it a model of one of at least two filming miniatures, known to differ from each other in various details

3) is the interior a model of again the "real" interior as it would be on the actual Sub, versus a simplified studio set with size, proportion, dimensional issues.

4) a mix of all of the above


I would assume a real sub would have formed, curved glass.
The miniatures might have had either. I think the Movie sub glass was curved and that big model had a large budget, was being crafted for a movie, and a lot of time went into it.

From this photo (cropped for discussion purposes) the front windows look flat. There is no curve to the top and bottom frames, and little or any to the vertical framing. 










This makes sense too from a model makers point of view.... They quickly lopped off the 8 window nose and made a new four window nose. With all the work for the Flying sub, sonars, etc. Im sure they didnt waste a lot of time on the windows.

The set photo posted shows the set girders to differ substantially from the kit girders in detail and shape. The FX girders are also a bit different.


----------



## Paulbo (Sep 16, 2004)

Good analysis, DJ. Here's another shot that shows the flat windows and surrounding nose area in the 17 foot miniature:


----------



## gareee (Jan 1, 1970)

Well, assuming the curved windows are a livable mistake, shouldn't the girders have also been modeled curved as well to match them?


----------



## solex227 (Apr 23, 2008)

In my opinion why not just shim the girders as close to the windows as possible with thin plastic? This would be a simple way to eliminate that gap.... If not you will have to get the curve inside of the window and make new girders which isn't impossible. Or wait till someone makes a resin set to correct this issue.

Solex227


----------



## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

gareee said:


> Well, assuming the curved windows are a livable mistake, shouldn't the girders have also been modeled curved as well to match them?


Yeah that would be the case. The interior of the kit is also probably based on the set/prop with flat windows and straight girders.

Shimming would be kind of odd. I'd just leave them be or remake them. Making new ones would be really pretty easy. You only need three pairs of girders for a total of 6. That way the holes would be in the proper location versus shimming.


----------



## Admiral Nelson (Feb 28, 2002)

I had an idea of sanding the tabs down and moving the control room forward until the girders touched the window braces. Or maybe someone could photoetch a new set along with the radar dish.


----------



## gareee (Jan 1, 1970)

That solution sounds like the easiest.


----------



## Paulbo (Sep 16, 2004)

Admiral Nelson said:


> I had an idea of sanding the tabs down and moving the control room forward until the girders touched the window braces. Or maybe someone could photoetch a new set along with the radar dish.


Are you just trying to give me more work? 

Let me finish what I've started before adding more stuff to add to the etch frets!

Actually, an alternative I thought of (and this might not work as I haven't dry fitted that part of the ship yet): Add small fillets between the existing kit girders and the front of the hull. This would simulate the interior window frames as seen in the interior set. I think it might require cutting the windows into individual frames so the pieces can fit and look right.

I'm thinking some Alves globbed onto the front of the girders and then squished against the hull might be the way to do it - once it's set up a little it could be shaped back to make it the right width.

Does that sound doable?


----------



## kit-junkie (Apr 8, 2005)

Sheet styrene and a drill bit wouldn't do the job? One could make a cardboard template. Sounds simple, anyway.


----------



## Admiral Nelson (Feb 28, 2002)

Shouldn't be any harder than making the landing gear wells for the Jupiter 2. Styrene is a wonderful tool and very forgiving.


----------



## Captain Han Solo (Apr 5, 2002)

Of course everyone is right in their opinion of the girders.

However we all forgot about the "Collision Sheilds"!

For the collision sheilds to work, they would need to slide between the Glass and the Inner Hull, which would in effect, have the girders NOT be but up against the window frames!!!

In my humble opinion that is.


BP


----------



## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Aren't the crash doors OUTSIDE the glass? What would be the point of them not protecting the glass from shattering, and flooding the ship when the doors open?


----------



## Ignatz (Jun 20, 2000)

BP makes more sense than the show ever did. 

I wonder who cool it would look with the crash doors closed...


----------



## Captain Han Solo (Apr 5, 2002)

John P said:


> Aren't the crash doors OUTSIDE the glass? What would be the point of them not protecting the glass from shattering, and flooding the ship when the doors open?


Isn't that what I said???


----------



## kit-junkie (Apr 8, 2005)

beatlepaul said:


> Isn't that what I said???


No.


----------



## Captain Han Solo (Apr 5, 2002)

"FOR the collision sheilds to work, they would need to slide between the Glass and the Inner Hull, which would in effect, have the girders NOT be but up against the window frames!!!"

Well, BETWEEN THE GLASS and the INNER HULL, would imply that THE GLASS IS ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE GLASS.


BP


----------



## solex227 (Apr 23, 2008)

Does anyone have a photo of there kit with the windows in place to see how much of a gap there is. Sorry I would dry fit my own but Im working to finish another kit so I can move to this project. I know the part for the window seem pretty thick but flush with the inside surface of the hull when put in place. Without the window it seems like there is a lot of space between the girders and the window frame.

Solex277


----------



## Admiral Nelson (Feb 28, 2002)

beatlepaul said:


> Of course everyone is right in their opinion of the girders.
> 
> However we all forgot about the "Collision Sheilds"!
> 
> ...


I think you have something there. I'll drag out my copy of the 2nd season and see. I may make some just for fun.


----------



## kit-junkie (Apr 8, 2005)

beatlepaul said:


> Well, BETWEEN THE GLASS and the INNER HULL, would imply that THE GLASS IS ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE GLASS.


Hey! Don't pop a string in your Hofner, pal. Sheesh! :freak:


----------



## Captain Han Solo (Apr 5, 2002)

kit-junkie said:


> Hey! Don't pop a string in your Hofner, pal. Sheesh! :freak:


 

No string popping here Sir(LOL)!

I wasn't sure you understood. My apologies if it was taken the wrong way.


High Regards,
BP


----------



## gareee (Jan 1, 1970)

So the glass is on the outside of the glass?

I thought the glass was also on the inside of the glass as well?


----------



## scotpens (Sep 6, 2003)

I thought the glass was half empty . . . or is it half full?


----------



## Capt. Krik (May 26, 2001)

It's half full...but with the wrong stuff!


----------



## Ignatz (Jun 20, 2000)

Are we on the outside--?


--looking in?

The crash doors _should_ be between the Outer hull and the Glass. So there would still be a gap between the glass and the girders. But that would be inconvenient to explaining why there's a gap. Maybe we can shave off the registration pins that are on top of the Flying Sub bay and just scoot the obs deck/control room forward a skooch.


----------



## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

Ignatz said:


> Are we on the outside--?
> 
> . Maybe we can shave off the registration pins that are on top of the Flying Sub bay and just scoot the obs deck/control room forward a skooch.


That still wont really fix it. If you look back at my pictures you will see the girders can only get so close to the glass as the glass and front of the sub are curved (so they bow away from the girders) but the girders are flat. You can only get a flat girder so close to something that bows out away from it.


----------



## Ignatz (Jun 20, 2000)

Blast. You are right. Is the "glass" in the miniature also curved? Or is it a flat piece that was bent to match the curve of the bow--more or less? If it's straight, maybe a thin piece of PEET could be bent to match the curve formed by the girders.


----------



## otto (Jan 1, 1970)

Could you just cut out some clear flat styrene and glue that to the girders? Making a double layer of glass?


----------



## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

otto said:


> Could you just cut out some clear flat styrene and glue that to the girders? Making a double layer of glass?


I wouldnt bother with that... it will just make the windows more reflective and glarey. And it would be odd having a flat window behind a curved window. 

Like I said, I think I would 1) leave it be or 2) make new curved girders to match the curved kit windows.


----------



## Y3a (Jan 18, 2001)

IRWIN ALLEN brand crash doors did NOT have the dimension of thickness. They were installed on the front of the Seaview, and upper and lower windows of the Jupiter 2 even though they only used the ones on the lower level. They found out in the 1st episode that even smashing into Aluminum foil asteroids in that 'Meteor Swarm' while going faster than light, that the windows held, and didn't even crack! Perhaps the Unobtanium hull helped hold the frames in alignment?


----------



## Admiral Nelson (Feb 28, 2002)

Watch "And The 5 of us Were Left." Crash doors were between the windows and the girders. Thus the gap between.


----------



## scotpens (Sep 6, 2003)

The crash doors would have to be on the inside of the glass, or the windows couldn't be flush with the hull.


----------



## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

beatlepaul said:


> "FOR the collision sheilds to work, they would need to slide between the Glass and the Inner Hull, which would in effect, have the girders NOT be but up against the window frames!!!"
> 
> Well, BETWEEN THE GLASS and the INNER HULL, would imply that THE GLASS IS ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE GLASS.
> 
> ...


No, between the glass and the OUTER hull would put the shields outside the windows.


----------



## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

scotpens said:


> The crash doors would have to be on the inside of the glass, or the windows couldn't be flush with the hull.


Depends on the model you look at... the smaller underwater miniature has big raised frames around the windows that aren't flush.


----------



## gaetan (Apr 6, 2005)

I don't think that you would be able to to fit the whole door in the frame a round the window....:freak: It is impossible for the glass to be flush with the outer hull if a crash door can deploys in front of it..... But with fairy's dust , you never know......

Gaétan


----------



## Ignatz (Jun 20, 2000)

Irwin Allen had _bags_ of fairy dust!


----------



## Ignatz (Jun 20, 2000)

I'm not talking about those little sandwich bags either. These were like contractor-grade garbage bags. He used to drive around the SFX shop in a golf cart with one of these bags in back and he'd throw handfuls on the miniatures.


Meh. I'm not going to worry about it. Allen didn't!


----------



## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

http://flickr.com/photos/modern_fred/2092902387/

Well according to the Seaview's own blueprint its all wrong on the kit...

The drawing doesn't match the miniatures (sonar housing on top of hull) or the sets (control room inst in the bow).


----------



## Admiral Nelson (Feb 28, 2002)

What color is this?

http://flickr.com/photos/modern_fred/2092904583/in/photostream/


http://flickr.com/photos/modern_fred/2092902643/in/photostream/


----------



## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

Admiral Nelson said:


> What color is this?
> 
> http://flickr.com/photos/modern_fred/2092904583/in/photostream/
> 
> ...


Grey...

Honestly trying to match a color for a model based on a screen grab of unknown quality, based on what quality of film stock or transmission, and vieded on what monitor res is useless. Unless you viewed the miniature first hand anything else is jsut a guess. Its sort of like a dark gull grey. IN those shots it has a slight, slight, brownish tinge. But I personally don't think the sub had brown in it...


----------



## gareee (Jan 1, 1970)

rust?


----------



## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Definitely Ghost Gray


----------



## solex227 (Apr 23, 2008)

Admiral Nelson said:


> What color is this?
> 
> http://flickr.com/photos/modern_fred/2092904583/in/photostream/
> 
> ...


I dont know if this is of any help but this was on CultTVmans site about the color using what was left of the 8' model

http://www.culttvman2.com/dnn/Default.aspx?tabid=948

Solex227


----------



## Captain Han Solo (Apr 5, 2002)

Very Cool.

However Gary says.. And I quote..

To me, these colors are spot on for the movie-version Seaview (and perhaps for the earlier paint job on the Flying Sub version).

Gary 

IMHO, The colors of 50% Dark ghost Grey/50% Light Ghost Grey are the colors needed to replicate the Movie/First season Seaview Paint scheme. Not the Flying Sub Version.

Again I am just offering an alternate opinion on this, To each his own.


Regards,
BP


----------



## gareee (Jan 1, 1970)

Different solutions are always good options...


----------



## Admiral Nelson (Feb 28, 2002)

John P said:


> Definitely Ghost Gray


I just painted mine Ghost Grey and it isn't anywhere near that dark. Mine has a kind of blue tint to it.


----------



## solex227 (Apr 23, 2008)

To each their own.. I agree

Im not an expert by no means but I understand the problem really well from modeling f1 cars and the color red. So I know when I get to this particular kit I will model something looking like what I see. I guess this is a good thing cause everyone will have their own version of what they see.

They say Ones perception is ones reality!


----------



## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

Well if you use Testors Ghost Grey its a definite blue shade. One thing you will notice is that while an FS number might be a match (or close) ,FS labled paints might be wayyyyy off. For example, you could get Poly Scale, Testors, Humbrol, Xtracolor, White Ensign paints for FS 34XYZ and everyone one can be quite different from both each other and the FS chip. So saying the real thing matches an FS number and saying you painted it with brand X FS paint is totally different thing. If in doubt match the paint to the chip in the FS book and just dont blindly follow the lable on the jar. Note also a few Testors paints have the wrong numbers or labels. Like they call one color something else...


----------



## kit-junkie (Apr 8, 2005)

Here's an idea: Eyeball up a nice gray and just go for it. 

I'm doing an Operation Petticoat version, dammit! :devil:


----------



## modelgeek (Jul 14, 2005)

If you ask me the color in the screen grab and Beatle Paul's sub is Grege' Ave.. A Benjamin Moor Classic color ..Same color as my dining room it changes to a darkish gray to a warm gray depending on how the light hits it ... But i sell paint for a living i look at colors and mix paint everyday..So when i get my Seaview I may custom mix me something from the Ben Moore color charts and tweak it a bit...LOL ... or I may just go with the flames and chrome.....Jeff


----------



## Moebius (Mar 15, 2007)

djnick66 said:


> http://flickr.com/photos/modern_fred/2092902387/
> 
> Well according to the Seaview's own blueprint its all wrong on the kit...
> 
> The drawing doesn't match the miniatures (sonar housing on top of hull) or the sets (control room inst in the bow).


Interesting blueprint. Is that a cross between 4 and 8 window? It has the Flying Sub, but it definitely isn't the 4 window version. Looks like a screen capture from somewhere, but it sure is a different mix of sub!


----------



## gareee (Jan 1, 1970)

Speaking of which.. are there any seaview blueprints on the web anywhere? might make an interesting printed addition on a wall in there or on the table.


----------



## Admiral Nelson (Feb 28, 2002)

djnick66 said:


> Well if you use Testors Ghost Grey its a definite blue shade. One thing you will notice is that while an FS number might be a match (or close) ,FS labled paints might be wayyyyy off. For example, you could get Poly Scale, Testors, Humbrol, Xtracolor, White Ensign paints for FS 34XYZ and everyone one can be quite different from both each other and the FS chip. So saying the real thing matches an FS number and saying you painted it with brand X FS paint is totally different thing. If in doubt match the paint to the chip in the FS book and just dont blindly follow the lable on the jar. Note also a few Testors paints have the wrong numbers or labels. Like they call one color something else...


I used Tamiya.


----------



## gareee (Jan 1, 1970)

While possibly inaccurate, I found this excellent resource for interior paint scheme possibilities.

http://www.fxmodels.com/seaview.shtml


----------



## scotpens (Sep 6, 2003)

This website is loaded with hi-res DVD captures of the Seaview interior.

http://www.robertdowdell.com/VTTBOTS/


----------



## scotpens (Sep 6, 2003)

kit-junkie said:


> Here's an idea: Eyeball up a nice gray and just go for it.
> 
> I'm doing an Operation Petticoat version, dammit! :devil:


"We sunk a TRUCK!"


----------



## Captain Han Solo (Apr 5, 2002)

Thats the best paint scheme yet!

Can you add yellow poka dots??


----------



## scotpens (Sep 6, 2003)

And a Navy nurse in an itsy-bitsy teeny-weeny bikini?


----------



## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

It looks like the Spice Girls sub...


----------



## Y3a (Jan 18, 2001)

Anybody look closely at the windows on the kit?? They are not flat plastic, but lenses that make the interior look like it goes further back into the hull than it actually does. Very cool!


----------



## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Admiral Nelson said:


> I just painted mine Ghost Grey and it isn't anywhere near that dark. Mine has a kind of blue tint to it.


What I'm actually thinking of doing is giving it an overall light ghost gray coat, then using dark ghost gray to do some creative shading and shadowing. The overall look should blend to something in between the two shades.

Now, I'm also wondering if I should pencil on some hull plate lines - nothing extensive or obvious, just, say, a light line around the hull every 4".I know the model didn't have anything like that, but a real ship would.


----------



## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

scotpens said:


> This website is loaded with hi-res DVD captures of the Seaview interior.
> 
> http://www.robertdowdell.com/VTTBOTS/


Wow, according to this, Chip Morton had more screen time than anybody! :lol:


----------



## kit-junkie (Apr 8, 2005)

scotpens said:


> "We sunk a TRUCK!"


*PERFECT!!* :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------



## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

Admiral Nelson said:


> Watch "And The 5 of us Were Left." Crash doors were between the windows and the girders. Thus the gap between.


I watched that the other night. The effect of the crash doors closing was merely an interior POV of a black animated "wipe" over the view port windows. There was no detail at all to indicate "where" those doors were.
And certainly no "exterior" shot that would have answered the question.


----------



## AJ-1701 (May 10, 2008)

This is whats on the Fred Barr blue prints I have . Hope it helps. It looks to me like there is a very slight curve. from a model enginering aspect maybe whats been done is a good comprimise?? But I only say this in retrospect as my order is still on its way down under.


----------



## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

Y3a said:


> Anybody look closely at the windows on the kit?? They are not flat plastic, but lenses that make the interior look like it goes further back into the hull than it actually does. Very cool!


I hadnt noticed the lens aspect but they should be flat... the prop windows are not curved


----------



## gareee (Jan 1, 1970)

AJ.. could you use a digicam, and take a pic of the full ship blueprints, and post it here? I could use it for a printout to put inside the control room inside the model. (Haven't decided where yet, but I haven;t been able to find any blueprints online anywhere.

That would have been a nice kit inclusion.. a 8 1/2 x 11 blueprint set, and maybe even a set for the flying sub.


----------



## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

BTW I used Gator Glue to fix my windows in place. Awesome stuff. Its a sticky acrylic glue for clear parts but it also works great on photo-etch. Its sort of like the old Micro Crystal Clear or Testors Clear Parts glue... but it actually will glue plastic and metal, not just sort of stick to it a bit.


----------



## Admiral Nelson (Feb 28, 2002)

John P said:


> What I'm actually thinking of doing is giving it an overall light ghost gray coat, then using dark ghost gray to do some creative shading and shadowing. The overall look should blend to something in between the two shades.
> 
> Now, I'm also wondering if I should pencil on some hull plate lines - nothing extensive or obvious, just, say, a light line around the hull every 4".I know the model didn't have anything like that, but a real ship would.


Just hurry up so I can paint my boat.


----------



## scotpens (Sep 6, 2003)

John P said:


> Now, I'm also wondering if I should pencil on some hull plate lines - nothing extensive or obvious, just, say, a light line around the hull every 4".I know the model didn't have anything like that, but a real ship would.


Real modern subs have all the hull welds ground smooth and the whole hull painted or covered in sound-absorbing material. Can the hull plate seams be seen on a real sub? Would they be visible at all on a 1/128th-scale model?

That's why I always hated the way Aurora engraved those heavy, ugly, way-out-of-scale panel lines on the 1975 _Seaview_ reissue.


----------



## Y3a (Jan 18, 2001)

Flat in that the sides were parallel, but the inside of the clear window seems like it's a concave or fish-eye type lens. It's very clever. The outside IS very close to flat while the inside matches the curves of the nose. Perhaps it wasn't specifically designed to have that effect but it works for me. Great subtle effect.


----------



## enterprise_fan (May 23, 2004)

gareee said:


> AJ.. could you use a digicam, and take a pic of the full ship blueprints, and post it here? I could use it for a printout to put inside the control room inside the model. (Haven't decided where yet, but I haven;t been able to find any blueprints online anywhere.
> 
> That would have been a nice kit inclusion.. a 8 1/2 x 11 blueprint set, and maybe even a set for the flying sub.


Is this what you are looking for?

http://www.nimr.org/seaview3.html


----------



## gareee (Jan 1, 1970)

That could work, tinted blue in photoshop... thanks for that link!

Snooped around, and found lots of great resource material.. looks like monsters encountered page 3 is gone though/


----------

