# help with slow thunder storm



## gordonmoney (Jan 15, 2002)

Hello all. I got a thunder storm off of Ebay a little while ago and found it to be very slow. I addressed the usual culprits-new p/u shoes and springs, new brushes and springs, new arm, check gear mesh, check track clearance. Still slow. It will jump quickly off the line and then settle into a low top speed( by FAR the slowest car I have).Nothing is binding. I have a Tomy track with one wall wart per lane, on which I can run 3 ohm poly mag cars OK. They might be better on a better power supply but my point is that they run pretty well on what I have. This is the only Wizzard car I have so my experience is limited. Is there something I'm missing here. I'd appreciate any input. Thanks
Gordon


----------



## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

you are probably not getting enough amperage out of walwarts for that type of car. although you claim to run other cars well enough on your power supply. lets us remember the dissapointment many young men had when they got their first Aurora Supper II and it ran like crap on their home track. it was designed to run on commercial tracks with better power than home tracks. I was one of those dissapointed youth. I may be missing the mark here. do you have a commercial race track to try the thunder storm on?


----------



## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

edit.


----------



## SuperFist (Aug 7, 2005)

What was the ohm measurements on all 3 windings on the armatures ?

Consider changing the WS01 Vortex armature to a A3P01 Patriot armature.
The A3P01 arms have been consistently better than the WS01 arms I have.

__________________


----------



## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

edit.


----------



## gordonmoney (Jan 15, 2002)

Hornet said:


> How'd you tune the brush and pick-up shoe tension,also what gear ratio are you running.


The brush tension on this car is new to me, so I screwed in the brush screws till the rpm's dropped off and then backed off a hair. Pickups are light/med. Gear 7/25.


SuperFist said:


> What was the ohm measurements on all 3 windings on the armatures ?
> 
> Consider changing the WS01 Vortex armature to a A3P01 Patriot armature.
> The A3P01 arms have been consistently better than the WS01 arms I have.
> ...


 Don't know the ohmage. This is the second Wiz arm, performance is the same as the first.


Hornet said:


> Check the guide-pin clearance too.
> If the guide-pin is a hair too long it'll cause all kinds of head-aches


Guide pin is fine.


----------



## gordonmoney (Jan 15, 2002)

alpink said:


> you are probably not getting enough amperage out of walwarts for that type of car. although you claim to run other cars well enough on your power supply. lets us remember the dissapointment many young men had when they got their first Aurora Supper II and it ran like crap on their home track. it was designed to run on commercial tracks with better power than home tracks. I was one of those dissapointed youth. I may be missing the mark here. do you have a commercial race track to try the thunder storm on?


No. However, I'm considering getting a 5 amp variable power supply. I'm also mindful that this is a stock tyco arm with no traction magnets so amperage demands should not be too high(I don't think. Course, it's not like I've never been wrong before)


----------



## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

edit.


----------



## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

What's the Arm ohm out at?


----------



## gordonmoney (Jan 15, 2002)

Hornet said:


> Sounds like you're doing everything right
> Check inside the hook on the pick-up shoe,if there's any traces of arcing,it'll show up as black looking burn marks.
> You could have a problem with the back of the shoe trying to lift itself off the barrel.
> If other cars work,there shouldn't be much problem with running this car,especially if you're running it as a "Jet" style car
> ...


Thanks for your insights. 18?volts(tomy wall wart)


Bill Hall said:


> What's the Arm ohm out at?


Not a clue


----------



## gordonmoney (Jan 15, 2002)

I appreciate the input you folks have given me so far. I'm sure between all of us, I will get this figured out. It's not like it's rocket science(then again, I failed algebra---twice):hat:


----------



## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

I'd check the arm...

Based on your description and what you have already tried; it's beginning to sound like you might have a lame pole. I'd eliminate that possibility right away.


----------



## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

edit.


----------



## Boosted-Z71 (Nov 26, 2007)

Does it get hot when you run it very much?

We ran stock Patriot's & Storms on wall warts for a little bit & they ran poor & got hot, once we upgraded to a good power supply it made all the difference in the world, cars ran cooler & much faster than the Wall warts. If it is getting hot, pull the arm, then check the chassis for wheel drag, Friction etc, if nothing install the arm without the mags & rear axle check for drag, if nothing here install the mags & check again to see if the arms hitting the mag. If nothing here shows up I tend to agree you either have a bum arm or you have a car with the wrong style arm installed.

Also something to consider a 5 amp power supply is going to be marginal on 4 cars of this type running at once, it should handle it but you can usually find a 10 amp supply for near the same money. I picked up an HP lab grade 0-25 volt & 0-10 amp power supply for $40 shipped from e-bay, works just perfect for slot cars, we have ran some neo cars that pull 2.5 - 3 amps & it does just fine, although I swear you can feel the heat in the rails.

Boosted


----------



## H.O. Slotrods (Jan 30, 2009)

i have had some fast cars i wanted to be faster so i put some STRONG mags in it, result was the same as you are describing. take off like a shot but had no speed. i would try different mags. just a thought.


----------



## gordonmoney (Jan 15, 2002)

Boosted-Z71 said:


> Does it get hot when you run it very much?
> 
> We ran stock Patriot's & Storms on wall warts for a little bit & they ran poor & got hot, once we upgraded to a good power supply it made all the difference in the world, cars ran cooler & much faster than the Wall warts. If it is getting hot, pull the arm, then check the chassis for wheel drag, Friction etc, if nothing install the arm without the mags & rear axle check for drag, if nothing here install the mags & check again to see if the arms hitting the mag. If nothing here shows up I tend to agree you either have a bum arm or you have a car with the wrong style arm installed.
> 
> ...


You have me reconsidering my power supply purchase. Although most of the time it's just me running, having greater capability would be nice and it sure wouldn't hurt.


H.O. Slotrods said:


> i have had some fast cars i wanted to be faster so i put some STRONG mags in it, result was the same as you are describing. take off like a shot but had no speed. i would try different mags. just a thought.


Thanks for your response. I too have noticed on my magnet cars that you better have enough power for stronger traction mags. This car however is a brass weighted, no traction mag car, so probably doesn't apply here.
--------------------------------------------------
All of my cars up till this one have been AFX of one sort or another. Tweeking the pickups has been helpful, but not critical. This does not appear to be the case with Wizzard. Started playing with the tweek on these puppies and WOW, like night and day. Still some ways to go but it appears to be a conduction issue(more amps probably wouldn't hurt either). Thank you all so much for your valuable input and knowledge. What a great forum.:thumbsup:

Gordon


----------



## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

edit.


----------



## H.O. Slotrods (Jan 30, 2009)

H.O. Slotrods said:


> i have had some fast cars i wanted to be faster so i put some STRONG mags in it, result was the same as you are describing. take off like a shot but had no speed. i would try different mags. just a thought.


sorry i was not clear, my bad. i was referring to the motor magnets. looks like your getting it figured out.


----------



## gordonmoney (Jan 15, 2002)

Hornet said:


> Storms also don't mind a little more pressure on the shoes then the other guys.
> Try bending the spring out straighter so it applies more pressure,and make sure it's running flat or slightly nose heavy.If the shoes got any black marks on them,they need more pressure.Stay away from the round nose "Elf" shoes,they weigh too much and will give you bounce problems
> Also make sure the shoe itself isn't lifting off the brush barrel.If there's any carbon traces between the inside of the hanger part and the top of the barrel,the shoes lifting itself off the barrel
> I round the back of my Wizard shoes,so they actually clip over the barrel.
> ...


I value your input, as I've noticed you seem to have a lot of knowledge on Wizard cars. Thank you.


H.O. Slotrods said:


> sorry i was not clear, my bad. i was referring to the motor magnets. looks like your getting it figured out.


No problem! I appreciate the effort on your part. I first got into slots back in the sixties when there were the various King tracks around. I was young and never raced, just went and rented time occasionally, whenever my mom would take me. I had an HO set at home, but it wasn't the same. Partway through my first(bad) marriage, I got an AFX g+ F1 set. That was a reliving of my youth thing, but totally on my own. Now, a couple/three/years/decades later, with a wonderful marriage, more money and the internet, I can ask stupid questions to a group of knowledgeable people and get all kinds of earnest answers to questions that probably would have stopped me before. I'm aware that many of the folks on this board probably have stories(and ages) similar to mine, but I just wanted to say how nice it is to have this resource available. Thank you for replying.
Gordon


----------



## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

edit.


----------



## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

I have a Thunder Storm with the brass weights instead of tracion magnets. it runs great on commercial power and is fun to play with because it has to be driven. all the suggestions are valid. I would still take it to a track that has more amperage available through a better power source than wall warts and see how it runs. before sticking parts in and out of it.


----------



## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

edit.


----------



## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

mine runs very well. I am not a regular roundy-round/circuit track racer. I usually drag race, but, I like Bob Lincoln and his Wizzard products and when I saw a great deal on this Thunder Storm with a nice blue Willys body, I had to have it. again, I mostly drag race, but a couple good friends have nice circuit type tracks with commercial type power and there is a commercial track nearby. my Thunder Storm works well on all of them. I have not tried it on a track with wall warts. but, when I commisioned Bob Lincoln to build me a drag car, some decades ago, it didn't run so well on wall warts that the guys were using then. so, I bought a 12 volt and a 6 volt automotive batteries and ran then in series for a total of 18 volts and nearly 1000 cold cranking amps. then the custom built Wizzard car was ballistic and the other racers insisted that a new class had to be prescribed for it and like cars. anyway, my point is that many of those cars will run best on the proper type of power and maybe not so well on toy transformers. when I bought a brand new Aurora Super II through an advance program by mail order, I was dissapointed in the car on my track and my friends track with standard Aurora power packs. my properly tuned AFXs with tune up kit magnets (yellow and blue) ran better than the Super II. it was only many decades later that I figured out the Super II was intended for commercial tracks with better power supplies. I know it sounds like I am beating a dead horse here, and I probably have repeated theSuper II story. but, that is my thought process. tuning the running gear is, of course, necessary and that will improve any slot car. but having a good power source is the best bet for longevity and happy racing. my drag racing experience has been just that. provide superior power and everyones car runs to it's potential and the racers are happier.


----------



## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

edit.


----------



## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

hornet, good point. I am spoiled and I frequently forget that few folks have the advantages I have. thank you for grounding me again. at least for a little while!


----------



## E-Force-1 (May 31, 2007)

> Written in post #6
> 
> ....so I screwed in the brush screws till the rpm's dropped off and then backed off a hair.


gordonmoney,
My experience with the small brush cars is I try not to adjust the brush screws while the car is under power. For me, and it has happened enough times, while trying to adjust the set screw in, it will put enough pressure on the spring and brush assembly causing the brush bounce and to rotate off of the curved part of the face of the commutator. This will cause servere arcing, and a tremendous loss of power. Power at first, but no top end.


Replace the brushes with new ones, make sure the curve part of the brush is making a flush contact with the commutator. Set the screws with two or three threads sticking out on each set screw. Break-in the brushes on a power supply at 3 volts for 20-30 minutes. Once broken in, ramp up the power to 6 or 12 volts to your liking, if the need more tension, disconnect the power and turn in the set screws as you wish. Then add power again and see if it made a noticable difference for you.


----------



## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

edit.


----------



## slotking (May 27, 2008)

couple of things to try

it seem you have other cars, I think you may have 1 with a stock arm, give some power with the rear axle in the air, listen to how it sounds.

then try the problem car
do they sound close enough to each other? then it may not be the arm!
or
place the arm from the problem car into another car and test? any slow down?

if the arm test ok, re-look at the brushes, make sure none are broke.
check the brush springs to make sure they are full length and springy
heat can cause them to collapse

also as stated before on the shoes & springs

last thing i can think of, get a sheet of paper(grid is best), place the motor mags from a good car on either end, the slowly push one towards the other 
when the stationary mag get pulled to the other mag pushed mag is., mark where the pushed mag was.
now repeat with the bad car mags if they get a lot closer, they may be to weak and need to be zapped


----------



## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

edit.


----------



## slotking (May 27, 2008)

thanks, how are the tropics up there?

This global warming is sweet, went swimming last night, it way to hot here in NY


----------



## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

edit.


----------



## slotking (May 27, 2008)

if you did the bloody dishes when the wife told you to, you would not have broken ribs:freak::wave::lol:


----------



## sjanny01 (Jan 22, 2011)

new brushes and springs, new arm, check gear mesh, check track clearance. Still slow. It will jump quickly off the line and then settle into a low top speed( by FAR the slowest car I have).Nothing is binding. I have a Tomy track with one wall wart per lane, on which I can run 3 ohm poly mag cars OK. They might be better on a better power supply but my point is that they run pretty well on what I have.


funeral eulogy


----------



## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

edit.


----------



## slotking (May 27, 2008)

did you swap stuff as i suggested?


----------



## shipsgunner (Sep 6, 2008)

I typically set my Shoes on these to 2.5-3.5 Grams near what I use for Tjets... The arm brushes are turned in equally and then backed out on a Amp display of .14-.17 amps on 6.0 volts after breakin. I dont always win with them but I won 5th at last years Thundercup if that helps... I also own the track so there was some home track advantage as well... 

Dan


----------



## slotking (May 27, 2008)

> The arm brushes are turned in equally and then backed out on a Amp display of .14-.17 amps on 6.0 volts after breakin


I think sound is better than using the above method, but a dyno is the best way
in my opinion.

what I have found for inline cars is that 1st most often the brush tension does like to be even. looking at amp draw alone does not really let you know if you are at peak performance.

I have been at races with some top races that use your method for years and 9 out of 10 time I get more speed out of their cars using a dyno


----------



## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

edit.


----------



## slotking (May 27, 2008)

> 2.5-3.5 Grams near what I use for Tjets


wow that heavy for t-jets, I try not to go over 2 and most often around 1.75


----------



## shipsgunner (Sep 6, 2008)

slotking said:


> wow that heavy for t-jets, I try not to go over 2 and most often around 1.75


Actually, that is for the Fray cars I use... 1.75 is great for T-jets without "heavy" Fray Front ends.

Thanks
Dan


----------

