# A Disturbing Revelation



## dlw (Aug 17, 1999)

I read on a popular email list, that a collector would bid on a car that he has in his collection to preserve his cars' value. Frankly, I think that sucks. I checked the auctions I won to see if he did that to raise the price on my bids. Thankfully, his name didn't appear in the bid history. I'd have been a little peeved if this guy bid against me because I had a shot at a nice piece at a lower price. Why must anyone pay the same amount, if not more for their rare piece as he did when he bought his car?


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## Mad Matt (Dec 16, 2004)

dlw said:


> I read on a popular email list, that a collector would bid on a car that he has in his collection to preserve his cars' value. Frankly, I think that sucks. I checked the auctions I won to see if he did that to raise the price on my bids. Thankfully, his name didn't appear in the bid history. I'd have been a little peeved if this guy bid against me because I had a shot at a nice piece at a lower price. Why must anyone pay the same amount, if not more for their rare piece as he did when he bought his car?


Well, technically it isn't against e-Bay policies, unless it is considered shilling, which it sounds along the lines of, but then you have to prove this guy is bidding just to raise the price or just bidding..If he has alot of bids that end in 99 cents and numerous (like bids going up in dollar increments) it could be classified as shilling, depends on e-Bays stance and how seriously they go after someone suspected of it. But Im guessing it will be hard to prove, I mean the risk is to him if he wins it 
Look at it this way, if you catch him doing it in an auction of yours, you could always retract the bid and make him eat the auction


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## rodstrguy (Feb 14, 2002)

Dlw,
The value of something is just like beauty... it is all in the eye of the beholder. If you already have a price you would pay for something (i.e. your max bid) that is it's value to you. There are things sold on Ebay and other sites for prices I would never pay. If you are not willing to pay a certian price you do not have to pay it.


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## Montoya1 (May 14, 2004)

dlw said:



> I read on a popular email list, that a collector would bid on a car that he has in his collection to preserve his cars' value. Frankly, I think that sucks. I checked the auctions I won to see if he did that to raise the price on my bids. Thankfully, his name didn't appear in the bid history. I'd have been a little peeved if this guy bid against me because I had a shot at a nice piece at a lower price. Why must anyone pay the same amount, if not more for their rare piece as he did when he bought his car?


Is there anywhere that this guy states both his name and ebay ID? If yes you could try reporting him to ebay.

The other thing is to name and shame him, im sure there will be guys who don't have a problem with this behaviour - but for those of us who do it would be nice to know who we are dealing with....


dw


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

If the person is placing legitimate bids, is not affiliated with the seller in any way, and could actually win the auction and have to pay up, I don't see what the problem is. If there's no collusion then it's entirely legitimate and would not violate any E-Bay policies. How could you possibly regulate something like this, require every bidder to submit a list of what's already in their collection, its appraised value, and condition? 

When you bid on an E-Bay auction you have no idea what's in the head of the people you're bidding against. The mind of some hard core collectors is the realm of twisted, illogical, and incomprehensible motivation that's devoid of all rational thought. Otherwise how could you explain why mature adults pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for low cost toys that were cranked out for 50 cents each in Hong Kong 30 years ago to sell to 8 year old kids?

I don't see a problem here. Do I think it's stupid? Of course. But proving that someone is colluding with themself in an attempt to "preserve their investment" cannot be done and shouldn't even be attempted. You don't even want to go there.


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## dlw (Aug 17, 1999)

Perhaps, I was a bit vague on this, after reading my post. I don't mind bidding on an item that I like. What I should've said is that this guy would bid up an item to where he got his car for to 'preserve' his cars' value. 

For example, if I were winning an auction on a Rebel Charger for $20, and he found this auction, he would put a max bid of $300 because that's what he paid for his. He really doesn't want the car, but would buy it if he won.


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## Blutto (Nov 29, 2005)

I bid on stuff that looks like a good deal all the time, I don't need it but it might look like a deal too good to pass up, I usually lose because of the bidders who wait for the very last second to bid. I don't see anything wrong with this guy bidding $300 if hes willing to pay it.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

As long as he would buy it if he won - what can you really do? Going up against a deep pockets bidder is no fun either.


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## TK Solver (Mar 18, 2004)

Sooner or later he either controls the market for that item or he runs out of money and a new market value emerges. If there is enough supply, he's in trouble if the demand doesn't keep up. Seems risky on slot cars but I often see the same people winning auctions for the same type of car over and over. It's actually a pretty small group, for example, that bids on Tomy and Tyco GTP and F1 cars. What they need with half a dozen or more Toyota Densos or taka-Q's is a mystery...

I would think that this would happen more for commodity items like Tomy track where there could be a handful of bulk buyers doing reselling. If anyone started selling off club tracks, the bigger players would be smart to step in and buy to preserve their pricing, knowing they could always resell it at their price.

If I'm a seller, I think I'd check prior auctions of similar items and notify the winners of my upcoming auction. I'd also contact the top sellers of the item and let them know. I don't see a problem with that. If someone wants to try to control the market, that's their business. If I'm a seller, I want top dollar and I'd be happy to see someone trying to corner the market for my item.


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## noddaz (Aug 6, 1999)

Further along that thread the person that was involved in that statement did aknowledge while that was what he said it was not exactally what he meant......
(No, it was not me.)
I had also read the original statement and was upset/perplexed/miffed as well.
But I found the person's response acceptable and left it at that.
(Even if I kan't spell)
scott


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## ParkRNDL (Mar 20, 2002)

I do my best not to get into stuff that can become an argument, and this isn't an argument yet, so I'll put in my thoughts and hope I don't send it in the wrong direction...

That discussion spanned a couple of different boards. I saw it on the Yahoo HO World list. I'm pretty sure that this was the passage from the original post that set some people off:

Great to see that HOPR bought the truck. Kind of secures the value of rare
stuff when key players step up........I have that one myself......

It is tough for me to step up publicly because people tend to bid items I am
interested in up more than it appears I am willing to spend. Actually that is
not true. *When I bid an item up it is mainly to get it to where it's value*
*belongs and if I win it, great....If not, oh well*. (emphasis added) I know I can not
have/get/own everything. I am more than happy with what I have already and it
is great to see the wealth be spread around.

I actually thought at this point, Did he say what I think he said? He bids stuff up to make sure it sells high?

Then, at one point, I saw this from the collector:

> Fellow Slotters,
>
> Here I am in a thread where discussion on-line is dangerous.
> Mis-interpretations and the like. My original comment in my first
post
> reflected that if I lost the item I was bidding on, at least it
went for the
> value I considered it was worth. What that means is first off:
>
> 1) I wanted the item for myself, not for re-sale
>
> 2) I was willing to spend the amount I bid as that is what I
consider it to
> be worth.
>
> 3) If I was outbid, no problem, no hard feelings, it went for the
price I
> considered it to be worth.
>
> 4) We all want a bargain, me too, but I would be mad at myself if
I did not
> bid and the item sold cheap and I wanted it.
>
> I would NEVER bid an item up just to keep prices high.
>
> Those are my criteria.
>
> When I sell on 3bay I usually do not put a reserve on items. I
know what I
> have into the item and I want to give buyers a fair chance at it.
More
> often than not, the buyer gets a good deal from me or people
scrutinize the
> car closely looking for defects because the price was too low.
>
> Right now on 3bay







there is a MOC AFX Alitalia in the SP1000 card.
I have
> this item for sale and have had it to the past 3 shows. I am
asking $350
> based on the thoughts of other collectors and what I have into
it. I am
> watching that auction and if it goes considerably less, I WILL
adjust my
> price accordingly. (some stuff about a Super II deleted)

I posted the following in response:

Thanks for clarifying that. I actually did get the wrong idea
from your original post. Your words were:

"When I bid an item up it is mainly to get it to where it's value
belongs and if I win it, great...."

To use your example about the AFX Alitalia, that quote makes it
sound like you'd bid that current auction up to $350 just to protect
your investment in the one you have, and if it nets you an extra
car, then so be it. In your current post, as I understand it, you
make it clear that that's not the case... for example, if you see an
auction for a blue El Camino and you want it, you'll start out
bidding at what you think is the full value (probably over $200,
no?) as opposed to someone like me, who will throw out a $20 bid
just to be in the action for a couple of hours. If you DON'T want
the El Camino, you don't bid on it, but you might watch to see where
it ends up. I do that all the time, I still watch orange Makos and
gray Corvettes just to get an idea where the value is, even though I
don't have the means to play at that level...

--rick

His response:

Rick, and all..........

Correct.
I ain't bidding unless I want it.
I do not need two alitalias at $350 to protect my investment.
If I need the blue Elcamino I bid my max, if I don't need it I might watch
the auction but never ever bid it up.

My original comment, dissected:

"When I bid an item up (because I want it) it is mainly to get it to where
it's value
belongs(to me, to buy it) and if I win it(because I want it), great...."


As I said before many times in many forums........................

I am not in this for the investment (many are and that's ok)
If investment happens, so be it, but the HOBBY is what I love.
(some more stuff deleted)

Before anyone gets too worked up, read the above carefully. What was originally stated wasn't worded very well and got LOTS of people riled up. Was the later response spin control? My personal feeling is no, but you can decide that on your own...

--rick

(ps yeah Scott, I thought that should be clarified too, but I guess it took me longer to get it put together...  )

(pps I changed his word to 3bay to avoid the goofy link that was making it impossible to edit this post together...)


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## dlw (Aug 17, 1999)

*Misunderstanding*

I get it now. He only bids what he's willing to pay for said car. Seeing his first post, I thought what you did.


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## ParkRNDL (Mar 20, 2002)

Yeah, and he bids the FULL AMOUNT he's willing to pay from the git-go. Unlike me... I'll nickel-and-dime myself up sometimes, but ya never win that way... :tongue:

--rick


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## car guy (Nov 22, 2003)

ParkRNDL said:


> ... I'll nickel-and-dime myself up sometimes, but ya never win that way... :tongue:
> 
> --rick


Doesn't work in Vegas either, belive me.... :drunk:


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## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)

TK Solver said:


> It's actually a pretty small group, for example, that bids on Tomy and Tyco GTP and F1 cars. What they need with half a dozen or more Toyota Densos or taka-Q's is a mystery...


 AIN'T THAT THE TRUTH.

Just once I'd like to win one of those auctions but it will NEVER happen.

Personally I'd like to see Racemasters come across a few ship containers of these and just start selling them outright. I'll laugh as these same three or four jags choke on their $100 Densos and Taka-Qs.

'doba


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## boss9 (Apr 19, 2002)

Yes, this is disturbing—unless I don’t get it.

I have no problem with anyone bidding to win. If they win, that’s fine—no matter what they spend.

I also believe what this person is doing is perfectly “legit” and for the most part, in context with auction practices. Good for him that he can afford so many high-buck auctions.
But that doesn’t make it right.

On the other hand, just bidding to “protect” his investment is plain ridiculous in my opinion. 
Does this mean if he gets a Mach 1 for say $40.00 he will only bid that high for another?
I think not. 
Why should he bid more if that’s all he paid?

What if he buys cars in a multiple auction? How does he place the value on a certain car? Does he add the total, then divide it amongst them? I doubt it.

That is the double-edged sword.

What I get from all this is just a guy who hates to see someone pay a “normal” or market price for something he might have paid too much for. 

I could just see this guy at a show—looking over everyone’s shoulders to make sure their “deal” was in line for what he’d paid. 

He should have no concern whatsoever of the price of a piece, unless he plans on purchasing everyone he bids on, and plans on keeping multiple pieces in his collection. I guarantee he sells all his multiple’s for at least what he'd paid for the original. Hence the reserves. If he gets a duplicate piece for a song, does he sell it as so? Don’t kid yourself.

He stated he didn’t want multiples, but on the same note he doesn’t want anyone to get a better deal than him—because then it looks like he paid too much. So he bids to keep the price in check with his original purchase. What a crock! 

Again, I have no problem with him bidding on whatever he wants or feels like. 
But to run bids up for the “value” reason, is just pure spite and not in the hobby spirit of slot collecting. A poor sport and sore loser in my eyes. I don’t believe he is a collector—more like an investor with some envy problems.

Most people have some idea what their stuff is worth. If not, then it is the lucky finder/buyer who makes out. Guys like this don’t want that to happen, and go to this type of extreme to make it so. He needs to face up to the fact that everyone doesn’t need to pay top dollar just because he did. 

If this is the best reason he can come up with, that’s too bad. 

I hope he pays through the nose for every piece he can acquire. Soon enough he’ll either run out of “savior funds”, or have so many of the same pieces that he’ll have to sell them at a discount just to get up more “protection” cash for his other purchases. 

Two sayings apply to him and his "lifejacket" auctions here:

“May the best man win” 
&
“ A fool and his money are soon parted”

His ludicrous contentions are a pure waste of time.

Cheers..


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## Mad Matt (Dec 16, 2004)

dlw said:


> Perhaps, I was a bit vague on this, after reading my post. I don't mind bidding on an item that I like. What I should've said is that this guy would bid up an item to where he got his car for to 'preserve' his cars' value.
> 
> For example, if I were winning an auction on a Rebel Charger for $20, and he found this auction, he would put a max bid of $300 because that's what he paid for his. He really doesn't want the car, but would buy it if he won.


Well then he isn't doing anything wrong. I mean if he is prepared to win the item for that price then he wins the item.... It is sour grapes if he wipes out a good deal....
It stinks, but you cannot really stop him.


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## noddaz (Aug 6, 1999)

Mad Matt said:


> Well then he isn't doing anything wrong. I mean if he is prepared to win the item for that price then he wins the item.... It is sour grapes if he wipes out a good deal....
> It stinks, but you cannot really stop him.


Yep...
It's hard to beat a deep wallet.
But I do keep hoping that the collectors will miss something...
Like the Super II arm and gearplate I saw in a bunch of parts
on EEEBay awhile ago...
Scott


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

> Personally I'd like to see Racemasters come across a few ship containers of these and just start selling them outright


That's not out of the realm of possibility at all. You never know when something considered long gone can suddenly pop up in quantity again. I saw vendors selling the Leyton House Turbo for $80-$100 bucks at a show and Bud's had several of them for $18 an aisle away. I'm not a stickler for minute and subtle variations. If the Taka Qs suddenly appear again I'm going to jump on one real quick and I'll put out the word.


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## Pomfish (Oct 25, 2003)

AfxToo said:


> That's not out of the realm of possibility at all. You never know when something considered long gone can suddenly pop up in quantity again. I saw vendors selling the Leyton House Turbo for $80-$100 bucks at a show and Bud's had several of them for $18 an aisle away. I'm not a stickler for minute and subtle variations. If the Taka Qs suddenly appear again I'm going to jump on one real quick and I'll put out the word.



I remember when Tomy Colectors were paying $100+ for Mercedes Circuit Board Imports, Then Tomy released them as regular American Releases for $20.
Never Trust Tomy, they are the worst at that.

As far as Taka Q's, why not score one of the Tyco versions and use Bud's Buddy clip to run it on a Super G+?

Thanks,
Keith


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## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)

Pomfish said:


> As far as Taka Q's, why not score one of the Tyco versions and use Bud's Buddy clip to run it on a Super G+?


 Because we want the Toyota 88CV, not the Porsche 956. 

'doba


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## Pomfish (Oct 25, 2003)

1976Cordoba said:


> Because we want the Toyota 88CV, not the Porsche 956.
> 
> 'doba


Details! 

Keith


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