# Bob Beers TJET Factory



## vaBcHRog

Hi guys,

Over on HOWORLD list we are seein if we can get enough commitments on paper to raise enough money to have the TJET chassis reproduced. Share will be $50.00 each. A share will allow you to buy TJET chassis at whole sale prices. As of 6:00 we had 60 shares committed to with 940 to go. If you are intereseted post on HOWORLD and let everyone know. So are there enough hobbiest to do this? That is the question

Roger Corrie


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## martybauer31

Hey Roger, tried looking through the massive pile of posts over there and couldn't seem to find the start of the thread, maybe you can answer a few questions?

So what do you get for $50 and what will the whole sale price be?
Does that $50 per share actually go towards the chassis purchases?

I would LOVE to be able to buy the perfect recreation of the t-jet, but have obviously seen the attempts made the last few go arounds and they have not been good (MM, JL/AW), what makes this version a better investment?

Are they going for an EXACT reproduction, or are they going to try and improve a few things (i.e. pop in rear axle)?

Inquiring minds would love to know, thanks!


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## vaBcHRog

Here is whated started everything. We are now seeing if on paper we can raise enough to get the chassis made.

Fellow slotters,

A new chassis would be nice and I have thought about it a number of times.

Here are some problems, and trust me, i know from what I speak!

start up costs for a duplicate of a solid rivit tjet chassis. $35,000.00 That means no testing yet and no purchases yet. That means after your 35K investment offshore, you now have to buy product, say at $3.00 per complete rolling chassis. If I wanted 1000 it would cost me $3000.00. If I sell them for $10 each I made $7000.00 back and to get out of the red so to speak, I would have to buy 5000 total chassis.

My total investment would have to be$50,000 (35K tooling 15K product) to produce 5000 chassis at $3.00 each..

What if the ohms and performance were not up to par? No guarantees on my $35K tooling costs. Word would spread on the internet so fast I would be H.Woodrow II in about one minute. My investment would be gone and no chance to turn a profit.

TOO RISKY in todays market.

consider the alternatives: original tjet chassis ARE available. AW makes a decent replacement. Why re-invent the wheel?

Anyone want in? I will not risk the chance for a return.

Bob Beers


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## resinmonger

*Focus on Key Information*

A number of people have asked for exact detail. Please see the quote below. Bob was referring to a match of the genuine article. 



vaBcHRog said:


> ... a solid rivit tjet chassis...


 :thumbsup::thumbsup:

Hutt says this is an honorable way to hit 1000. :drunk::hat::freak::dude:


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## micyou03

You only need to buy like 10 chassis at $6 each to recoop the $50 investment.


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## AfxToo

Are there 2 proposals on the table? Bob's posting sounds like he's soliciting opinions, not investors. Where's the 1000 investors proposal coming from and who is the person running the deal forthe 1000 investors? Getting 3 guys to agree on something is hard enough, 1000 sounds impossible.


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## vaBcHRog

Here is how it got started Geoff anwsered Bobs post and I anwsered Geoff's post then Bob came back In order Geoff, Roger then Bob shown below. It will be interesting to see how close can we get to what is needed to produce the TJET Who knows if we keep it going we might just get there 

Fellow Chassiphiles....

Okay, add your name and number of $50 shares for investment.
ROI (return on investment) is chassis purchase at cost.

Bob Beers 10 shares
Roger Corrie 4 shares

CUT AND PASTE YOUR REPLY IN THE BODY OF A NEW EMAIL RESPONSE!

thanks,

CEO Bob



I'll kick in  Lets take a head count and see how many would be willing too. Say 50.00 a share in Bob Beers TJET Factory I'll take 4 shares Who else lets see how close we can get to the money needed on paper. Fringe Benefit of buying stock is TJET chassis at wholesale? What do you say CEO Bob

Roger Corrie



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 11:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [HOWL] new chassis?



Hey Bob, 
Using your math, there are almost 1000 guys on this list. I'm sure there must be 1000 hardcore Thunderjet fans left on the planet. If 1000 organized, elected a committee, and pitched in $50, we have a tooled chassis (and maybe a sample in everyone's hands).

I guess the biggest catch is the "no guarantee" on the tooling, which there must be either some way around, like finding a machine shop sympathetic to the cause(?).

Doesn't seem an impossible amount of money to raise, but you are correct that there are still lots of original chassis to be had. I think a bunch of them were hoarded toward the end of the end of the REH supply, but I don't see them appreciating much in the current economy, so they may get sold off fairly cheap.

Geoff


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## resinmonger

Bob stated that one could get the T-Jet reproduced for $35,000 and could produce (or have produced) 5000 chassis at $3 each for an additional $15,000. The investment would be $50,000. If the 5000 chassis were sold by Bob at $10.00 each, he would break even (if one ignores the cost of money). He further speculated that any error in the part of the manufacturer (like 50 ohm arms when your requirement was for 16 ohm) would tank the investment in a heart beat ala the Model Motoring Thunder Plus. 

So, one of the HOWorld members suggested there were 1000 guys (and some gals) who would plop down $50 apiece to see a new 100% T-Jet reproduction made. This led to guys "commiting" to anywhere from 1 to 10 "shares" of $50. 1000 investors is not the true requirement. A collection of people willing to throw down a combined $50,000 is the theoretical requirement to get a chassis into production. One person risking $50K could do this in theory as could 2 with $25K each or five with $10K each. The larger the number of investore, the lower the risk per investor.

Think of this as more of a survey as to how many people are truely interested in having a fresh supply of NNS (New New Stock) chassis.


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## mr_aurora

*CEOBOB speaking.....*

resinmonger said it right....... I have established that a complete new chassis may be $3 to make. It might be as much as $5. Your investment gets you those chassis back at cost. In other words, invest $100 anf get 20 chassis at $5 each or 33 at $3 each. all in fun but who knows......... CEOBOB


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## AfxToo

Even though this sounds more like one of those Friday night beer logic (FNBL) schemes, I am interested in seeing how many people actually "sign up" for the shares. I've always wondered how large the market really is. I suspect the market is fairly small but this small number of people purchase a disproportionately large amount of product compared to some of the more mainstream hobbies.

If I'm doing the math correctly, at the $3.00 per copy cost, the out of pocket cost for each investor is still $10.00 per chassis for the first batch of chassis. If subsequent batches are $3.00 each, you would have to manufacture vast quantities of chassis to get the actual price per chassis down a lot. If the second batch was for 50000 chassis, the total out of pocket cost per chassis would still be $3.64. What would the effect be of flooding the market with 55,000 new chassis?


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## afxgns

mr_aurora said:


> resinmonger said it right....... I have established that a complete new chassis may be $3 to make. It might be as much as $5. Your investment gets you those chassis back at cost. In other words, invest $100 anf get 20 chassis at $5 each or 33 at $3 each. all in fun but who knows......... CEOBOB


I would propose a test run.......
Why not see if you can get enough capital to do just the gearplate?

This is an easy mold and is a good way to see if you get the matchup and fit required. It would also be a great way to build on success and investors. 

I would also propose that the mold work and the manufacturing be done in country. There are THOUSANDS of little mold shops and plastic houses that would love to get in on this.
Try looking in the rural areas of the U.S. and not in the great northeast. No offense, but the manufacturing base has shifted a little to the west.:wave:

http://www.rucoproductsinc.net/main.htm
This is a little place just up the street..... many more like this one.

Just a few ideas.....
I will lend a hand if you need it, I can do the dwgs if reqiured.

Tim Leppert


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## docsho

*T-Jet Factory*

To Roger Corrie, I dont know how to post on the HOWORLD List, but you can include me in for 10 shares
Thanks


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## mr_aurora

*we need a full real name please*

DOC: to be included we need to know who you are.....

Tim: good ideas, let's let the shares theory run first.

In country is my preference too......... I also have manufacturing abilities in both design and fabrication of molds.

CEOBOB


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## Crimnick

You guys should get up a separate website and see if you can get that many real people together...

I might not interested in the chassis per-se...but my share could be raised by someone selling me some inline stuff they dont want...etc..

I'd imagine quite a few people would be in for more than one share...that will cut down the number of people need by quite a bit...

:thumbsup:


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## tjettim

After my experience with trying to get a chassis
made in China,I think you will end up with a whole
bunch of JL/AW lookalikes.


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## Crimnick

tjettim said:


> After my experience with trying to get a chassis
> made in China,I think you will end up with a whole
> bunch of JL/AW lookalikes.



I believe the intent is to produce them "in country"...meaning here in the US...

And I concur..with the current state of the economy I'm sure there are quite a few small shops that would like to do the work...:thumbsup:


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## Bill Hall

Interesting can-o-worms.

Given the current state of affairs; whether or not the project stays in the good ole USA might affect this project's outcome in more than one way.

Certainly one cannot throw too many stones at modern inlines produced out of country. Problem is that the complexities of the pancake's monkey motion have arguably left us O-fer-two in the reproduction area. Corners have been cut in the past with no guarantees of accountability.

I will concede that the original T-jets werent perfect either. BUT! Until someone can, at a minnimum, reproduce their ORIGINAL quality, let's not change ANYTHING. In order to build a better mouse trap one must first complete the original mouse trap.

On the upshot though, who better to ramrod the project than the godfather, Bob Beers, backed by last bastion of Pancake fanatics. I'm in. :thumbsup:


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## afxgns

mr_aurora said:


> DOC: to be included we need to know who you are.....
> 
> Tim: good ideas, let's let the shares theory run first.
> 
> In country is my preference too......... I also have manufacturing abilities in both design and fabrication of molds.
> 
> CEOBOB


I will participate in the shares thing soon. This is a great idea.

The place were I just started working is willing to talk about running the electrics. ( they specialize in minature electrical stampings) I can draw up the dies for the hanger plates, Both brush springs and the shoes pro bono (sp). I can also get a pretty good line on springs if needed.
I would hope to get these done for $1.50 per chassis. This is not a quote, just a goal, would this be doable number?
We also have a very accomplished assembley crew, they could be very handy.


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## rodstrguy

I would be in it for two shares, but wonder what kind of deal do you get after that on chassis pricing? I would much rather have a US made chassis as well.


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## martybauer31

Hey CEOBOB, put me in for 2 shares, thanks for the answers! Sent you a PM with my info.

Thanks,

Marty


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## coach61

I'm in.. And Make them in the U.S.A because we all know darn wellif you go to China they will just use AW Molds and stamp your name on it.. they won't even tool a new mold. leaving you with zero way to prove it either.. Just look at all the offshore Tyco's that have come into the country the past few years..Plus we employee a bit of Made in the USA pride.. lol...


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## afxcrazy

If we make it here in the USA you can count me in for at least a share. I don't use t jets but whats another box in the closet if it helps to put Americans to work.
Besides when you use China your supporting Communism. Seems people forget that little fact these days(myself included).


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## tomhocars

OK,You guys are trying to torture me.Now when we head to Ohio I'll have to listen to Bob talk for 8 hours about the new BOB-JET.I guess it will be better than listening to him sing.He is one of if not my best friend but there limits to what I can put up with.Dream on.
Thanks Tom Stumpf


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## resinmonger

tomhocars said:


> OK,You guys are trying to torture me.Now when we head to Ohio I'll have to listen to Bob talk for 8 hours about the new BOB-JET.I guess it will be better than listening to him sing.He is one of if not my best friend but there limits to what I can put up with.Dream on.
> Thanks Tom Stumpf


Ohhhhh, now you've done it. CEO Bob will spend the trip taking about the B-Jet* AND *singing "Dream On"!






Please be sure to record Bob's cover of Steve Tyler's crooning. :drunk::hat::freak::dude:


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## tjd241

*Here it is Bob....*



tomhocars said:


> when we head to Ohio I'll listen to Bob sing Dream On


.... You've just had your first request for the looong roadtrip ! ! nd


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## lenny

AfxToo said:


> If I'm doing the math correctly, at the $3.00 per copy cost, the out of pocket cost for each investor is still $10.00 per chassis for the first batch of chassis. If subsequent batches are $3.00 each, you would have to manufacture vast quantities of chassis to get the actual price per chassis down a lot.


With a $1.50 'non quote' thrown out there for just springs, shoes and hangars, the chances of getting to $3/chassis are slim to none. I''d love to see the estimates come back for this 'US Made' armature, magnets, gears, axles, tires, brushes and last but not least, assembly.



AfxToo said:


> If the second batch was for 50000 chassis, the total out of pocket cost per chassis would still be $3.64. What would the effect be of flooding the market with 55,000 new chassis?


Keeping in mind that there are probably well over a half MILLION JL/RC2/AW T-Jet chassis out there, and that they still sell for a decent buck in spite of their lame out of box performance and total lack of quality, the affects of 55,000 more chassis would be minimal.

As far as manufactured in the USA, keep that in mind the next time you shop at Wal-Mart for a screw driver, T-Shirt, DVD, television set, camera, iPod, X-Box, spark plugs, backyard pool or water slide, socks, jeans, car tires, yada, yada, yada... 

As much as you hate to admit it, our economy is propped up by goods and services provided by third world or communist countries. It's the truth. 

And it's absolutely a riot that some of you guys want to 'rebuild' the Aurora factory in New York.


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## resinmonger

*Dashmeister!*

Lenny,

If my memory is correct, you've spent time seriously looking at the effort required to produce a direct copy of the T-Jet as well as the Slim Line and the HP7. If I may ask, what was your experience with trying to work with Chinese companies?

BTW, please keep producing your awesome line of bodies. I've got a far share of them but it's like an itch: the more you scratch, the more you itch. In the case of Dash bodies, you more you have, the more you NEED. Say, there wouldn't be a little crack in that plastic compound...

:drunk::hat::freak::dude::tongue:


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## afxgns

lenny said:


> With a $1.50 'non quote' thrown out there for just springs, shoes and hangars, the chances of getting to $3/chassis are slim to none. I''d love to see the estimates come back for this 'US Made' armature, magnets, gears, axles, tires, brushes and last but not least, assembly.
> 
> 
> 
> Keeping in mind that there are probably well over a half MILLION JL/RC2/AW T-Jet chassis out there, and that they still sell for a decent buck in spite of their lame out of box performance and total lack of quality, the affects of 55,000 more chassis would be minimal.
> 
> As far as manufactured in the USA, keep that in mind the next time you shop at Wal-Mart for a screw driver, T-Shirt, DVD, television set, camera, iPod, X-Box, spark plugs, backyard pool or water slide, socks, jeans, car tires, yada, yada, yada...
> 
> As much as you hate to admit it, our economy is propped up by goods and services provided by third world or communist countries. It's the truth.
> 
> And it's absolutely a riot that some of you guys want to 'rebuild' the Aurora factory in New York.


Hell I was just guessing at a price, with no idea of quantities. I'm pretty shure I'll beat that.

I'm pretty shure that the $3.00 chassis won't happen, but why not try?


I guess I'll just crawl back in my hole now.


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## oddrods

put me in for at least 1 share.


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## lenny

resinmonger said:


> Lenny,
> 
> If my memory is correct, you've spent time seriously looking at the effort required to produce a direct copy of the T-Jet as well as the Slim Line and the HP7. If I may ask, what was your experience with trying to work with Chinese companies?
> 
> BTW, please keep producing your awesome line of bodies. I've got a far share of them but it's like an itch: the more you scratch, the more you itch. In the case of Dash bodies, you more you have, the more you NEED. Say, there wouldn't be a little crack in that plastic compound...
> 
> :drunk::hat::freak::dude::tongue:


I've spent about 2 years so far trying to get quotes, samples, prototype parts, etc. Last year right around this time I was probably the closest, I actually had magnets and armature samples that I sent to SwamperGene. The magnets were great, there were some things with the arm that needed to be worked out. The factory was less than willing to do any further work on the armature until I paid 50% of the tooling. I was unwilling to pay anything towards tooling until I had a solid, good to go prototype. So it went nowhere. And I've approached other companies and have received better estimates and lower tooling costs, which will sting alot less if the product truly sucks.

Overall, I've had great success dealing with the Commies. Their communication is better than what I've experienced with US companies. In particular, I approached Paramount, the US company that produced the chassis for Model Motoring. If their communication with me was any indication of how they dealt with Harrison Woodrow, I feel very sorry for Harrison. They are probably one of the most unprofessional outfits I have ever dealt with. 

The same is true for some companies that I've approached in the past 2 years to try to do some of what I do, back to the US. It would literally take weeks to get a reply, after multiple emails. I haven't had that same lousy experience with overseas companies. If anything, they are a bit too aggressive in trying to get business.

I just think it's hilarious and hypocritical and way too easy to dump on overseas firms and to jump on the 'Made in the US' bandwagon. There's a reason US firms are outsourcing production overseas, mostly to cut costs.

Tonight I took my daughter to gymnastics and spent an hour walking around a local Wal-Mart noting where items were made. Here's a brief list, in no particular order other than where the items were as I walked around:

PAAS Egg coloring kits - China
Stuffed Bunny - China

Nicoderm gum - Denmark

Various pet toys - all China
Pet beds - China
Aquarium filter - China
All Glass Aquarium - US (actually Milwaukee, I've heard the founder/owner drives a yellow Saleen)

Brita water filter - pitcher made in China, other parts made in Canada. Assembled in Canada.

Black and Decker Hand Vac - China

Black and Decker Coffee Maker - China

Black and Decker power drill - China

Stanley crescent wrench - China

Master Lock padlock (a milwaukee company) - this surprised me. Masterlock had a production facility in Milwaukee for years. The lock I picked up was made in China

Here's another WI company that puts out a quality product that many people on this board use. Dremel. For years these were made in the US, in Racine, WI. The one I picked up today was made in China.

Peerless faucet - China

ATV Battery - China

I was finally able to find some US made items in the paint aisle, and Goodyear tires were marked as made in US

Bosch Spark Plugs - Germany

Fram oil filters - US

Champion spark plugs - Mexico

Shakespear fishing reel - China

Almost all toys - China

Magnavox DVD player - China

and on and on...

US made items were few and far between. 

How did we get to this point as a country?


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## lenny

afxgns said:


> Hell I was just guessing at a price, with no idea of quantities. I'm pretty shure I'll beat that.
> 
> I'm pretty shure that the $3.00 chassis won't happen, but why not try?
> 
> 
> I guess I'll just crawl back in my hole now.


This wasn't an attack, why react like it was??? 

You said your 'goal' was $1.50. To me, that would imply that you would be working down from a higher number.

But regardless, if $1.50 is spent just on some stampings, consider what the cost will be for the other items. I've received armature estimates from overseas that range anywhere from 40 cents to $1.18. I've approached US companies about this pancake arm and the tooling costs alone would put me into a well made American car. And the kicker with some of these american companies estimates is that they would STILL outsource much of the work overseas. So much for 'made in the US'.

Ferrite Magnets. estimates from overseas companies have been 16 cents a set to 50 cents a set. So if I take the higher of the arm and mag estimates from overseas companies, that's over $1.50 right there. Then there's machining, molding, rubber wheels, gears, brushes, assembly, testing, etc.

I'm not trying to say you CAN'T make this chassis in the US, but I seriously doubt that you could do it for much less than $10. And the $35,000 that Bob estimated for tooling was probably not considering using US companies.


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## afxcrazy

Still you would have to admit .To have the first made in the USA chassis ever be born right here would be cool as heck!


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## lenny

afxcrazy said:


> Still you would have to admit .To have the first made in the USA chassis ever be born right here would be cool as heck!


Wizzard makes his stuff in the US, I believe. 

And if that's your goal, then go for it!


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## mr_aurora

*what a concept.....*

Hi Dan, What a concept having a hundred or so people funding a project and taking a collective risk as opposed to one guy sticking his neck wayyyyy out there. If it fails, everyone lost a little bit. If it succeeds then everyone wins. This is more fun than watching my 401K disappear. CEOBOB


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## afxgns

mr_aurora said:


> Hi Dan, What a concept having a hundred or so people funding a project and taking a collective risk as opposed to one guy sticking his neck wayyyyy out there. If it fails, everyone lost a little bit. If it succeeds then everyone wins. This is more fun than watching my 401K disappear. CEOBOB



Bob: This was my take all along.


Lenny: I'm sorry that I took your terse attempt at a response as an attack. I'm just a tooling guy GUESSING at costs with no real numbers. You have way more knowledge of the marketplace and what it will handle than me. 

I just know what it will take to do the stamping side of this deal, and I'm trying to help as I can. As I would for you if you wish.


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## partspig

If any of you are interested in adding your name to the list please contact me. CEO BOB has kind of assumed that I am the "recording secretary" for this. Please give me your name and how many shares you would like and I will add you to the list ASAP. And please first, last name, and board were you can be found, just Dave or Fred is not going to cut it, especially when we come to look you up later. Thanks much, partspig


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## tjd241

*I'm in PartsPig... PM sent*



lenny said:


> They are probably one of the most unprofessional outfits I have ever dealt with.


Seems to be a lot of that going around lately, but I'm all in favor of finding one that isn't and giving them the business. nd


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## fordcowboy

Hey Dan are you still trying to get a t-jet chassis made or not?


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## lenny

mr_aurora said:


> Hi Dan, What a concept having a hundred or so people funding a project and taking a collective risk as opposed to one guy sticking his neck wayyyyy out there. If it fails, everyone lost a little bit. If it succeeds then everyone wins. This is more fun than watching my 401K disappear. CEOBOB


Hey Bob,
It's a GREAT concept. Good luck with it. :thumbsup:

The 'made in the USA' posts seem to be picking up steam. 

As CEO are you prepared to go back to the investors and tell them that your original $35,000 offshore tooling estimate will now actually be in the $70,000 to $100,000 range, if made domestically? And that instead of a rolling chassis possibly costing $3 to $5, it will actually be more like $10...

Or are you a strong enough CEO to stick to your original plan of doing this offshore, the costs of which are the basis for your $50 share price?


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## lenny

fordcowboy said:


> Hey Dan are you still trying to get a t-jet chassis made or not?


I can't really answer yes or no. It's been a 'part time' activity in the past two years with nothing really coming from it except some magnet and gear sets, some armatures with great potential and tons of estimates, which in itself has been very time consuming.


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## afxgns

lenny said:


> Hey Bob,
> It's a GREAT concept. Good luck with it. :thumbsup:
> 
> The 'made in the USA' posts seem to be picking up steam.
> 
> As CEO are you prepared to go back to the investors and tell them that your original $35,000 offshore tooling estimate will now actually be in the $70,000 to $100,000 range, if made domestically? And that instead of a rolling chassis possibly costing $3 to $5, it will actually be more like $10...
> 
> Or are you a strong enough CEO to stick to your original plan of doing this offshore, the costs of which are the basis for your $50 share price?


I would add one more to this list:
If you do go offshore, have the fortitude to SEND IT BACK if it's not right. I believe that is what got Harry.


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## AfxToo

Good points about price and volumes Lenny. I understand the sentiment on both sides of this proposed venture. Spreading the risk across many investors makes it more palatable financially but you still need a single, strong, driven project leader to get the work done, make real time decisions, make real time corrections, and make sure the manufacturer delivers on the promise without coming back with more cost adders or delays, regardless of the circumstances or who is considered to be at fault. 

Basically, it comes down to, are you the investor willing to fork over $50, $500, $5000, or whatever, for an outside chance that you'll hit a home run on the first swing of the bat and recoup you initial investment and position yourself for proportionate downstream rewards? At the $50 level, maybe. At higher levels, hmmm, maybe not so certain. As an investor I'd expect my allocation of the downstream "at-cost" production would be proportional to my up-front investment. If I invest 25% of the up-front cost I'd expect to have 25% of the downstream production volume, at 25% of the downstream production cost, of course. If the big investors are looking to make a profit on their investment then this could put the big investors in a situation where they are competing against one another with the same exact product in the same exact market.

My gut feel is that those who have been down this path are no dummies, especially Tom Lowe, and that getting the kind of quality that you expect at the cost you are willing to absorb, and doing a better job than what Tom was able to do, will be extremely challenging. I'd expect that Tom made a trip or two to China at some point in the negotiations or follow-up. While not his sole responsibility, the project oversight was clearly part of his regular job and not something done as a side hobby. He probably has some expertise in dealing with overseas manufacturing and import/export compliance laws and other such gritty details. He also could not afford to dump mass quantities of marginal product like Aurora did back in the day, or go through many revision cycles on the designs and prototypes.

All this starts sounding more like a business than a hobby to me. I can live with the minor "imperfections" of the products that are currently being manufactured by AutoWorld, Tomy/RaceMasters, Life-Like, Wizzard, BSRT, Slottech, MM, et al, if it means my hobby stays pure and simply a hobby. I don't need a perfect rendition of a piece of history to achieve a state of perfection in the hobby. 

Best of luck with the venture.


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## tomhocars

When people have a passion for something or someone,we are often blind to what's right in front of us.I know from experience.The most diehard group of HO enthusiasts are the t-jet fans.I think there was a song out years ago "When a man loves a t-jet" it can do no wrong.This is not a ompetition between Bob Beers aka.Mr Aurora aka Tonto and my personel roadie and Dan Cashmere aka Mr.Dash aka lenny.Everyone would like to see a t-jet chassis that would be less then $10.The price of these little gems is climbing every time you look around.Both of these guys know what they are talking about.Bob has set goals in this hobby and reached them and more.Ford Aurora King.Dan set out a few years ago to become a name in manufacturing for the hobby we all love.Dan and I have discussed this chassis for 2 years.The search for a company that could make this chassis exact has been very difficult.He knows that if its not perfect he will be just about tarred and feathered.Trying to find competent manufactures is just not that easy.He gets crazy sometimes when people think it's so easy to do.If it was Bob.Danny Esposito and myself would have done it years ago.Dan is spending everything he has to accomplish his goal.He is extremely anal about this.If he wasn't it would haVe been out already,but it would have faults..I cant think of a better person than Bob to have a new chassis named after them.The B-jet.Who is going to run this new group of investors.Who will be accountable for collecting the money ,meeting the reps,paper work,shippping,warehousing and future products.Will he be compensated.Its a great idea on chat talk but I just need to have something to talk to Bob on our next trip.I'm an optimist and would love to see a new product come out but there is a lot to think about..I lost thousands of dollars a few years ago with the best caster out there but i didn't have it in writing..Get it all in writing. Good luck.Tom


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## copperhead71

Man!this post is to advanced for me!but i'll read- on i'm very sure i'll need it!(love this sight!):thumbsup:


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## Crimnick

Hell...I've spent 50 bucks many times over on the lottery....never got a damn thing for it...

You know...the first thing you guys are going to do with them is dissassemble them and put them back together...

As long as the parts are all good...why not just send them as a kit and save of assembly costs?

Just throwin it out there...


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## mr_aurora

*offshore vs USA*

I work for a major helicopter company and they know you can not be competitive in business without manufacturing and assembling offshore. We may not like it but it's a way of life. Designing and manufacturing quality into the product is the most important thing and then getting the cost down. The best way to get the quality in and the cost down is make the manufacturing shop accountable for their work. Step payments usually can do this. One of the problems dealing with China or other offshore locations is they are cutthroat and never loyal. They would make chassis for me and use AW molds. The market is tight over there and they are extremely clever, cunning, and devious. 
Making an item in the USA is attractive to me. Of course costs are the biggest factor but the capabilities and controls are there. I, too have the ability to design and manufacture and there is a vast hungry pool I feel I could draw on. I would love to keep the process in the USA but it's all about cost, quality, and delivery. all this is moot anyway. We are miles away from actually acting on this fun thread. CEOBOB


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## win43

Here's a novel idea...... What if Dan (aka Lenny) who has already done a lot of leg work on getting a new tjet chassis made and Bob (aka Mr. Aurora) and his selling shares to reduce risk of loss factors joined forces??? They always say: "Two heads are better than one". I know nothing of manufacturing costs, so i won't throw numbers around. I just think that the more people with knowledge of this type of venture the better chance for success.

This is a business venture, with the outcome being making a profit, so maybe a partnership of sorts is not so far off base. 

Just an idea from the depths of my abused mind.


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## tomhocars

Crimnick said:


> Hell...I've spent 50 bucks many times over on the lottery....never got a damn thing for it...
> 
> You know...the first thing you guys are going to do with them is dissassemble them and put them back together...
> 
> As long as the parts are all good...why not just send them as a kit and save of assembly costs?
> 
> Just throwin it out there...


That's how you get ideas and solutions


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## resinmonger

*God Bless The United States of America!*

I work for a major aerospace company. My program is based in California. I have heard that "we can't do business in the USA" and "we can't do business in California" all due to cost. An awesome supplier of machined parts is in Gardena, CA. They fabricate parts for Airbus as well. The owner has top notch equipment and top notch people. He can go toe to toe with anyone, anywhere. During the downturn of the early 90s, he invested when others went out of business. Much of the aerospace work sent to other companies is for offset. Since the B-Jet is not an airframe, this is a little tangental. However, I have experienced what can be done on-shore and it is good.


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## lenny

win43 said:


> Here's a novel idea...... What if Dan (aka Lenny) who has already done a lot of leg work on getting a new tjet chassis made and Bob (aka Mr. Aurora) and his selling shares to reduce risk of loss factors joined forces???


On the surface, this is a great idea. But now you have 50, 100, 200 (or whatever the final number turns out to be) 'investors' who have expectations to buy rolling chassis _at cost_. So now you essentially have that many 'distributors'. The chances of me making any cash on a 'partnership' like this is zero.


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## martybauer31

lenny said:


> The chances of me making any cash on a 'partnership' like this is zero.


How about doing something cool for the hobby and breaking even?


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## Bill Hall

*Lets not and say ya didnt.*

Ha ha (in yer best Nelson Muntz voice)

Thanx just the same, but no thanx. The vast majority here would like to see the screw posts in the right place, wheel wells with representational radii, and wheel bases that actually line up.

D'Oh!


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## AfxToo

I have colleagues worldwide, including China, Korea, Malaysia, Singapore, and other countries in the Asia Pacific region, that I deal with nearly on a daily basis. All very good people, as smart as the best and brightest from any country on the planet, radically divergent from the stereotypical views presented in too many places. If you think that it is only manufacturing and assembly jobs that are being moved to lower cost (for now) production areas of the world, think again. If you are working for any company today that sells products worldwide, is not on the public dole either directly or indirectly, and if you are hoping to achieve continuing growth rates, then you have to *be* where the greatest growth potential exists, and be there with jobs and a market presence that spans all levels. You can't just use offshore capabilities if you hope to tap into those same markets for your own growth opportunities. The world has changed, and we are living in a global economy. Try as you may to preserve or recreate the past, in the long run you'll find yourself getting in line behind the Dodos and the Dinosaurs or basking in the tar pit.

This is a niche hobby, and it will stay a niche hobby in a continuously shrinking way unless something changes radically, in a massive Benjamin Button kind of way. There's nothing inherently wrong with it being niche, because we have some excellent manufacturers still pumping new products into our little hobby. It's a nice niche! As long as there is enough demand, there will be supply, and supply is usually driven by the ability to make a buck. 

On the pancake slot car front, I am more than happy to keep buying and playing around with AutoWorld TJets and XTs and whatever else they keep pumping out at incredibly affordable prices and in decent volumes. I can easily adapt to the differences between the new version products and the vintage ones. Makes no difference to me whether it has AutoWorld or Model Motoring molded into the chassis. When it's on the track or on display, it still brings pleasure to me and a hobby that is a captivating diversion, totally immersive, and great way to share time with friends. 

Bring on the BobJets, bring on the DashJets, bring on the WizzJets, bring on whatever jets you can muster up. I will buy them. In the meantime, I'll be playing with my slot cars.


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## SplitPoster

Crimnick said:


> Hell...I've spent 50 bucks many times over on the lottery....never got a damn thing for it...
> 
> You know...the first thing you guys are going to do with them is dissassemble them and put them back together...
> 
> As long as the parts are all good...why not just send them as a kit and save of assembly costs?
> 
> Just throwin it out there...


Ditto.

Don't quite get the notion on investors becoming distributors. Expectations laid out beforehand - is it a group purchase agreement or venture startup costs? I mean, I can buy stock in Ford or McDonald's, but it doesn't mean I get employee pricing, products at cost and/or resale/distributor rights. Actually doing the latter would severely undercut the business model - if that model means building a self-sustaining business. Buying a share means I own a little transferable piece of the company and get a dividend if they decide to pay one. It gives me one vote per share on certain issues, not a right to object to every single day to day issue, real or trumped-up in a post somewhere. A "company store?" for shareholders? Another issue entirely, and a complex one at that. There would have to be limits.

What any venture needs is objective, level-headed, goal oriented leadership at the top. Obviously this topic elicits quite a passionate response, but decisions and commitments need to be made in an impassionate, reasoned and, unfortunately sometimes, a pragmatic fashion. Can't please everyone every day. I don't know the slot car business, or the band of brothers, or H Woodrow or T Lowe. I do know that one can't run a business trying to keep every single guy on a webforum happy. I've seen some very good top execs in my company, and some awful ones who were shown the door. The good ones explain their rationale for doing what they do, and treat everyone by the golden rule. They don't lay out every decision in front of a focus group before making it. T jet chassis venture - talk about being under the microscope 24/7.

This *COULD* lead to something really cool, I think the potential pitfalls are very evident.

Count me in for a share or two.


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## slotcarman12078

What you would lose in profit on the chassis could be made up on the body end. I have a bunch of your bodies, Dan, and no chassis to put them on. The price of NOS keeps going up, and for some strange reason :freak: I keep buying more bodies and not chassis!?!?! I don't understand it myself!! :lol: The falcons, and fairlanes, etc are absolutely in need of an Aurora style tjet chassis. Skinny tjet tires on AW chassis just don't cut it. Even when I replace the pinion with a 9 tooth. Breaking even on the chassis may be a technicality, but having an affordable good chassis available would boost sales of bodies and make you a hero in our eyes..


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## AfxToo

Overlooking the current state of investing (arrggghhh!) in our tanking economy, investing in a company gives you a share of the company's profits and value, whether they are reflected in dividend payments, increase in share price, or increase in the number of shares over time if they split. So Lenny's points, which clarify the ones I made, are entirely relevant in this situation. The ROI in this case is exactly tied to how many additional chassis you are able to obtain "at cost" and there will need to be a proportional allocation and it will create a pseudo distributor network.

The only way that you can keep this as a purely cooperative, pure hobbyist, and non competitive effort is to prohibit resale of chassis obtained at cost. That starts sounding really goofy besides being totally unenforceable. 

I hope this dialog continues along the friendly lines that it is following at this point. I appreciate the underlying sense of camaraderie and commitment to a common cause that we all share, as reflected in the openly professed support shown for the Idea. At the end of the day, however, when it comes down to business and pleasure, and where our friendships and allegiances orbit around these areas, it is very easy to find ways to start butting heads and losing sight of the original intentions. Interesting to chat about nonetheless.


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## lenny

martybauer31 said:


> How about doing something cool for the hobby and breaking even?


Why??


----------



## lenny

Bill Hall said:


> Ha ha (in yer best Nelson Muntz voice)
> 
> Thanx just the same, but no thanx. The vast majority here would like to see the screw posts in the right place, wheel wells with representational radii, and wheel bases that actually line up.
> 
> D'Oh!


Well, gee Bill. Try it yerself, bubba. you have lots of snappy comebacks and retorts but you're a little lame in the actual idea and follow through department.

Bozo...


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## lenny

AfxToo said:


> I hope this dialog continues along the friendly lines that it is following at this point. .


No chance of that happening. The vocal morons are already taking shots at me for voicing an opinion and actually (MY GOD!!!!) wanting to MAKE MONEY!!!!

This is why I don't come to this board. You have Billy Bob Hall Monitor with nothing good to say and people who just expect you to give this crap away.

Good luck with your committee, Bob. You'll need it with most of the whiners on this board.


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## lenny

SplitPoster said:


> Ditto.
> 
> Don't quite get the notion on investors becoming distributors. .


It really doesn't take much thought. Investors are being promised the ability to buy chassis at cost. That's the bottom level price. If you have 50 or 100 investors all buying at cost, you have 50 or 100 people who are able to potentially sell at a profit. The person doing the leg work (Bob, ME, whoever) is left with nice warm fuzzies for doing the hobby a great favor and little else, except all the potential exposure and negativity if things go wrong...


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## resinmonger

*You made me do this*

Dang nabit, mesa was wanting some thoughtful discussion. Now. I am gonna have to resort to WMDs! I am really sorry but y'all drove me to this point.






Will y'all never learn that violence begets violence in a never ending, vicious circle until somebody goes Truman and uses the ultimate weapon. Please don't make me do this again.

Hutt


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## Dyno Dom

It's great to see enthusiasm & optimism for an idea such as a replacement
chassis. An endeavor of cooperative investors would provide a challenge
onto itself. Based on his previous research, it would appear that Lenny has the most knowledge for what the task entails. Hutt, I do enjoy your Elton
intermissions.


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## martybauer31

lenny said:


> Why??


Geez, I don't know, the thought that this is a community and not just a money maker for all. I don't mind buying folks stuff and understand people want to make something for their effort, but is it always about that?

I don't think anyone was expecting folks to just donate and not get a return, much like if I plunk down $100, i'd like to see something back....

You're response of "Why?" do something for the community speaks volumes.... I'm sure that will help you in the sales department. 

Funny you told Tim not to take your comments personal, and here you are getting yourself all lathered up and stepping in and stirring the pot. It seems to me people were coming up with some good ideas and were positive about the project.... right until you posted. Interesting.....


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## vaBcHRog

Hey lets look at something totally different. Lets say things keep moving along and we get a successful chassis  Now lets export our great Hobby to China and India using the Aurora way. Have national racing championships where they win a in country manufactured car. I believe both companies are working on a new low priced car for the people. Just think of the HO Slot Car explosion than could result if we got the TJETS and our love of the Hobby in the young ones in these countries. Just some food for thought.

Do you know what makes this hobby great? Its the people sharing with one another that makes it so great and nothing more. Without us sharing this hobby would have died.

Having all kinds of fun with where we might be headed 

Roger Corrie
Virginia Beach VA


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## AfxToo

Roger gets it. That's exactly the kind of radical change I'm alluding to. Instead of just looking to China, India, Malaysia, etc., as places to build stuff for US on the cheap, why not look at them as the next big market for consuming the same products that we're looking to obtain? Those economies are definitely on the rise as far as discretionary spending is concerned. Slot car racing is affordable and could potentially become more popular as more people own cars in those countries. The fact that the F1 series has races and racing fans in those countries is a potential catalyst, but the slot products have to play well into those markets and some tie-ins between slots and real racing has to take place to get the sets out into the hands of future fans. If slot cars are going to survive much beyond the current generation of fans, it will be in these emerging markets where automobiles in general, and racing in particular, are starting to have a much bigger impact on the day to day lives of ordinary people.


----------



## 1976Cordoba

Interlude --


----------



## rodstrguy

If you can get the parts to me, I'd be happy to assemble them all... I think the Thunder Jet+ chassis was good, just those crap armitures...

Dan, I thank you very much for the great bodies you put out and appreciate the price point you have them for. EVERYONE deserves some kind of reward for hard work, that's why I have purchased many of the bodies you sell.


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## tjd241

lenny said:


> This is why I don't come to this board


Well thanks just the same for thinking of us this time... it was nice. :thumbsup: nd


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## afxcrazy

lenny said:


> No chance of that happening. The vocal morons are already taking shots at me for voicing an opinion and actually (MY GOD!!!!) wanting to MAKE MONEY!!!!
> 
> This is why I don't come to this board. You have Billy Bob Hall Monitor with nothing good to say and people who just expect you to give this crap away.
> 
> Good luck with your committee, Bob. You'll need it with most of the whiners on this board.


I noticed you always have a chip on your shoulder when you post.Why is that??
If you can't be decent then be gone! 
I get enough tantrums from my children,I don't need yours as well.


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## resinmonger

*Apology*

I find myself in a difficult position to deal with. In post #27, I basically invited Lenny to share his experience in trying to bring a T-Jet (as well as HP7 and Slim Line) to life. I knew he had a couple of years of experience in this area. I knew some of his insight wouldn't be a fluffy "sure, it's as easy as pie" type of response. I more or less expected to hear tha it is not easy and the devil really is in the details. We have been having fun with this B-Jet survey but I wanted to ground it with some current experience.

After all, two guys have tried to duplicate the venerable T-Jet with less than desired success. One supplier put Model Motoring out of the game. As to JL/AW, do you really think Tom went into the process with the goal of making some of the part not quit fit? I would wager he got the same kind of fastone pulled on him that Woodrow did. Tom was just lucky that his stuff would run and not burn up.

Anyway, I posted: 

"If my memory is correct, you've spent time seriously looking at the effort required to produce a direct copy of the T-Jet as well as the Slim Line and the HP7. If I may ask, what was your experience with trying to work with Chinese companies?"

So what happened. He made some comments we didn't like and got his butt kicked. I basically invited him into a "Dan Bash". Now I feel like a total butt wipe. I know I'll hear about _terse comments_ and _thin skin_ and all that. So what? Like none of us have an ego? We let people slide for a lot of other stuff. Shoot, you guys even put up with me. That proves a near infinite potential for tolerance.

At this point, all I can do is this.

*Lenny, I apologize for inviting you into this discussion.*

Hutt.


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## slotcarman12078

I just don't get it!!!! The technology in the early 60's is pretty much stone age compared to what is available today. CAD/CAM, robotics, the highest standards in quality control, and we can't replicate 46 year old technology???? What is wrong with this picture??? 

A little ways back I saw an episode of breaking Vegas. Some dude from RI had an idea. He was a machinist. He counterfitted casino tokens in his basement. He got a machine that would read the stamping of the tokens and replicate it on tooling. Cost for the machine, about 80K. Now if this retired machinist can do this, and get away with it for as long as he did (he fleeced casinos from Atlantic City to Vegas and only got caught because he put too many "new" tokens in a casino at one time) why can't we get tooling and get these chassis done?? Did we as a country get that dumb in the last 45 years that we can't make this happen???


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## Dyno Dom

Well, Dan is a businessman. Why should he consider any other perspective??
He did respond to the topic. For someone who has significantly stepped up for the betterment of the hobby, he does take a lot of c**p and critique. 
I often see his bodies for sale by others @ shows & on the net. His products
are being sold in various stages, right up to customs w/chassis. Are the
motives of these vendors driven for love of hobby or profit?


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## Dyno Dom

Slotman, good point & we're back on track! :thumbsup:


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## SplitPoster

Interesting..... just goes to show you. You want to start a business, you come up with a plan and execute as best you can. What you DON'T want to do is float too many trial balloons and hypotheticals that may not come to pass - just the plan please- Nor do you let people believe that they are "owed" more than they actually are. If a few hundred "investors" or "friends" think they are owed anything they want at cost, then somebody has overpromised, or just told people what they want to hear. The polite line is "this is a business, not a charity." Ah, the potential pitfalls of partnerships among friends, family - or a group of hobbyists with varying degrees of tunnel vision. The entire customer base can't cash in. 

Also demonstrates the risk of a lot of volatility at the top - it niether inspires confidence nor loyalty, both things a public company needs to survive, let alone thrive.


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## Bill Hall

*Wow! A Promotion!*

Gee thanx Baggy! Yer generousity is only out done by yer world reknowned customer service skilz.

Are you sending me a Hall Monitor sash? ...or is it coming from China?

Probably wont fit my chassis anyway. I've bulked up over the winter.

You keep it and bandage up that delicate ego.


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## AfxToo

> I just don't get it!!!! The technology in the early 60's is pretty much stone age compared to what is available today. CAD/CAM, robotics, the highest standards in quality control, and we can't replicate 46 year old technology???? What is wrong with this picture???


Here's what I believe is wrong with this picture. We're looking for an exact copy of a product designed around the manufacturing capabilities that existed in the late 1950s, which involved more manual steps and some degree of human intervention. If we were looking for a functionally equivalent or superior product, one that could be manufactured to great precision and at low cost using modern machinery and techniques, I believe that design for manufactureability and assembly considerations would compel you to redesign the product at least in some subtle way, which is unacceptable in this case. Could it be done without altering the design, sure, but at much greater up-front expense.

Just because a capability exists doesn't mean it's applicable or practical to apply it in all cases. The tooling and automated manufacturing capability used for wafer fab would not be cost effective to apply to making a toy race car chassis, well not unless they were demanding $500 a copy and you were selling a couple million a month. Plus, wafer fabs cost between $1.5 B - $2.0 B to build. 

You could just manufacture the individual parts and skip the assembly altogether. Or like others have mentioned, just make the core pieces like the gearplate w/arm and the bare chassis w/electricals. All other parts could be sourced through other channels, ideally ones already in the hobby like JWs, RTHO, MM, JBs, WHP, BRP, just to name a few, for things like axles, gears, pickups, brushes, springs, wheels, tires, guide pins, etc. If just the core is single sourced through China, each of the "investors" would be free to kit out or assemble a full rolling chassis that's personalized to their needs and potentially a slightly different target market. This opens up the possibility for differentiation across "brands" while still maintaining the same common core. What you give up is the universal cookie cutter copy model.


----------



## slotcarman12078

Dan does raise a valid point.  Beyond the actual tooling and manufacturing costs, there is the leg work and intellectual costs. Those guiding and controlling this endeavor should be compensated for the time and effort to achieve this objective. And they will be... in the long run.. I believe an at cost chassis limit per share should be discussed now, to avoid any confusion at a later date. I, for one, would be using my chassis for my own personal use... as it is I'm hopelessly behind over 100 chassis for the bodies I've accummulated in the past 6 months. I can only imagine the discrepency by the time these are released.. There will be an initial risk of the market being flooded with chassis when these little gems hit the streets, but that will wane shortly after the release. I realize the tooling has a life expectancy of a certain number of parts before they would need to be replaced, but I'm also sure there will be more than enough made in the long run to compensate those holding the lions share of the investment to make a profit well into the future. Remember, the main objective of this project is having a refueled supply of T Jet chassis to keep us going for another 20 years... at a decent price.. I guess this means basically.... I'm in for a share!!!


----------



## slotcarman12078

I'm not suggesting these be assembled robotically..:freak: I believe the same methods should be utilized as Aurora did. But the mold making process for the base and top plate can and should be done using CAD/CAM vs. hand milled as it was in the 60's. Higher precision can be achieved this way, and it would certainly speed up this part of the process. I do like the some assembly required option to not only keep costs down, but make the chassis "personalized" for the new owners intended use. I'm certainly not knowledgeable in manufacturing processes, other than what I've observed from a 4 1/2 year stint as a gopher in an engineering dept. Let's keep this discussion going!!! I sure am liking the concept!! :thumbsup:


----------



## win43

:beatdeadhorse:


----------



## mercury09

I understand that tooling only lasts for a certain amount of cycles, but what ever happened to the original tooling for the t-jet?


----------



## triple20

If an endeavor of this sort were to develop,I would be interested.
With no details available,it's hard to say how many shares I would go for.If it were a sure thing we would end up with a quality product,I would be inclined to purchase more shares.With varibles involved that could have a negative effect on quality,less shares would be purchased.


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## SplitPoster

Uther Joe, you raise a lot of valid points - certainly the legwork behind putting the project together is labor intensive and time-consuming. Gotta compensate for it at some point with proceeds from sales - that would be profit - except you really can't accurately project the total cost of the product beforehand, much less the profit margin. Therein lies the danger in promising product at cost to "investors" - at the outset you don't know what the cost will be, when the product will be available (delay = additional cost), or how many more you need to sell at list/distributor price just to recoup the cash outlay. That does not take into account if something else has come on the market and reduced demand. A ton of variables - and if the first run comes out at "cost" of $20 a chassis how many would howl? 

Kinda like the AIG execs and "bonuses" - to manage when things fell apart the govt appointed CEO (making $1 a year) retains and hires a bunch paying them $1 a year to do a grim job, salvage and sell profitable divisions, and not jump ship until they get their carrot in a lump sum. Then when the lump sum is paid they are demagogued and crucified. Somebody managing a startup in this environment could fall in the same hole - if many of the investors are really just consumers who want their own personal motherlode of high quality chassis at cost. That is a very valid point made (in a caustic way) by Dan. Cost does include compensation for time, expenses and repayment of and/or service on debt, not just materials and machine time. The most important item on the agenda is to sell product and make money to sustain the business - otherwise it's not an investment, it's a donation. 

I hope the B jet moves forward, but the direction must come from the people who sign their names on the licenses and contracts. If somebody cuts corners to cut costs, they'll get cut to ribbons by some here as has happened with the hit-n-miss stuff that we are all familiar with. But they will get run throught the mud just as well if the list price of a t jet is $25, even if the darn thing is perfect.


----------



## afxcrazy

triple20 said:


> If an endeavor of this sort were to develop,I would be interested.
> With no details available,it's hard to say how many shares I would go for.If it were a sure thing we would end up with a quality product,I would be inclined to purchase more shares.With varibles involved that could have a negative effect on quality,less shares would be purchased.


I feel the same way.I even tell my lotto sales person if you only sell me winners I'll buy more.If you want to mix losers in there I'll buy less.LOL!!
If only it were that simple.

To invest in anything you must assume risk.


----------



## slotcarman12078

*I pledge allegence to the slots...*

While I can't afford to buy alot of tickets, I do buy some. *IF *I ever get lucky enough to match the correct 6 numbers, I promise to take over or completely back this chassis endeavor 100%, and follow through no matter the loss of my investment into it. I will also pledge to buy out Model Motoring from Harrison Woodrow, (provided he'll sell it to me) and carry on his fine job of making bodies for these chassis. :thumbsup: And I know it sounds crazy, but I'll spend the extra $$$$ to make them here.. after all.. I'll be loaded!! :lol: And some really cool non wobbly wheels too!!! :thumbsup:


----------



## Dslot

*Mercury09* asks the question I've been wondering ever since I started reading this thread: 


> _... what ever happened to the original tooling for the t-jet?_


Can't we take advantage of the work that has already been done?

If the dies still exist, even in poor shape, they might be bought or leased, and refurbished at lower cost than creating from scratch. If not, then surely the dies for the ill-starred Model Motoring chassis still exist. If the armature was the main functional problem, could we get enough subscriptions to get proper armatures made, and come to an arrangement with Mr. Woodrow to restart production using the new arms? Or if he has (understandably) lost his enthusiasm for the project, buy his parts stocks and buy or lease the tooling from him and produce our own chassis. 

I understand that not all the MM chassis parts were absolutely interchangeable with the originals, but if we could get a consistent, good-running functional equivalent of the T-jet chassis made for a retail price of ten bucks, that might just be more satisfactory, and a lot less work, than doing everything from scratch, getting a perfect replica, and having to charge twenty.

Then, with a few more subscriptions, plus the profits and practical experience gained, go for the gold. Not a perfect copy of the '60s chassis (much as I love it), but an updated version - snap-in axles, better ventilation, narrower front rails, adjustable length, magnetic posts, whatever - that retains the same measurements (or is maybe a bit slimmer), will take the same bodies and is generally interchangeable with the original chassis, even if all the parts aren't.

-- D


----------



## Scafremon

I'd buy a share, but...
I live in California, and we have banned slotcars. 

Still, I'd buy a share if...
SplitPoster was was running the show, as he has smarts, but he would need to promise to stop listening to Rush (not the band). 

Even still, I'd buy a share, because...
Slotcarman is only in for one share, and he needs a lot more then one chassis, and I could give him mine. 

But truthfully, I'm not going to buy a share, because this is the strangest group-buy-disguised-as-a-business-plan ever!

It's a fun read though! :thumbsup:


----------



## fordcowboy

iAM SURE bOB HAS A PLAN.


----------



## afxcrazy

Dslot said:


> *Mercury09* asks the question I've been wondering ever since I started reading this thread:
> Can't we take advantage of the work that has already been done?
> 
> If the dies still exist, even in poor shape, they might be bought or leased, and refurbished at lower cost than creating from scratch. If not, then surely the dies for the ill-starred Model Motoring chassis still exist. If the armature was the main functional problem, could we get enough subscriptions to get proper armatures made, and come to an arrangement with Mr. Woodrow to restart production using the new arms? Or if he has (understandably) lost his enthusiasm for the project, buy his parts stocks and buy or lease the tooling from him and produce our own chassis.
> 
> 
> 
> -- D


When you have a mold made in China it is my understanding that they retain the Die/tooling.
Of Course they swear never to produce it without proper authorization from the owner but still they retain possession of it. And whoever heard of china Knocking off a product !! Thats absurd!! LOL!!
Just another reason to stand clear of China.
But alas it's all up to CEO Bob.


----------



## afxgns

*Just can't help myself...........*

I understand/accept the concept of the investor based system of getting this done. I also understand that it flies in the face of a "normal" buisness model.
Lenny is trying to keep a buisness afloat, not support a hobby based group of collectors/racers. I do understand his side of the equasion. 
I also have a tremendous amount of respect for Bob and his acumen (sp) in this hobby. At This moment, I am trying to decide just how much I will throw at this deal, but I will throw.....when I'm ready.

I still think baby steps are what's needed to get this deal afloat. One thing at a time. Do a component, if that's succesfull..... move on to the next, and the next........
With this model, the proceeds from early ventures have a chance to help fund the tooling for the next thing in line. The snowball effect may help in this case.
The first thing that may be looked at for a funding opportunity would be armatures.
If you could supply a number of good arms to this hobby, I am CERTAIN there would be a large number sold. You can't NOS arms.


There's your goose laying the golden egg guys..........:wave:


----------



## SplitPoster

Scafremon said:


> I'd buy a share, but...
> I live in California, and we have banned slotcars.
> 
> Still, I'd buy a share if...
> SplitPoster was was running the show, as he has smarts, but he would need to promise to stop listening to Rush (not the band).
> 
> Even still, I'd buy a share, because...
> Slotcarman is only in for one share, and he needs a lot more then one chassis, and I could give him mine.
> 
> But truthfully, I'm not going to buy a share, because this is the strangest group-buy-disguised-as-a-business-plan ever!
> 
> It's a fun read though! :thumbsup:



Scaf, can't say that I am smart enough to run the show, but I am probably smart enough not to. But you sure are smart enough to hit the nail on the head! I think it would be best if the whole affair was run by a complete stranger - and that person would probably need to have an alias, and only appear to shareholders in a mask and cape. :thumbsup:

BTW, sound of baseball (MLB.com for me) makes an evening workbench session all that much better, doesn't it?


----------



## bumpercar88

If this is an example of a shareholder meeting, then I'm in for a couple of shares just for the entertainment value. I would however like to see some details before I sign the check. If I wanted to throw money away I'd it give to the misses, she's far more experienced than I. Let's face it labor costs preclude this item will be made overseas. Will Bob be in China or India to keep an eye on QC? How else could you prevent the Thunderplus armature or JL/AW enlarged axle hole problems from sinking the investment? Are we talking about a replication of the original to include metal gears or are we looking to improve the original design? Needless to say research and development costs to improve the original can once again sink this ship before it ever leaves the dock!


----------



## Crimnick

bumpercar88 said:


> If this is an example of a shareholder meeting, then I'm in for a couple of shares just for the entertainment value. I would however like to see some details before I sign the check. If I wanted to throw money away I'd it give to the misses, she's far more experienced than I. Let's face it labor costs preclude this item will be made overseas. Will Bob be in China or India to keep an eye on QC? How else could you prevent the Thunderplus armature or JL/AW enlarged axle hole problems from sinking the investment? Are we talking about a replication of the original to include metal gears or are we looking to improve the original design? Needless to say research and development costs to improve the original can once again sink this ship before it ever leaves the dock!


Ship in kit form at regular price....assembled and tuned for extra.


----------



## bumpercar88

I agree w/ shipping unfinished will save labor, however the workers manufacturing the parts will most likely not be familar w/ the finished product. (This is probably just as well since they would just steal the intellectual property) They may not understand the need for such close tolerances.


----------



## afxgns

As far as a shareholder meeting goes, let the CEO get here before you start

Let Bob do the QC, he has the technology and the knowledge base to get the thing done. He also has the past No-Nos of others to keep him on the right track. He knows what to look for.

I happen to know he will pay for NOTHING that isn't right.:wave:


----------



## tomhocars

NOTHING.I know Bob when he wouldn't pay for ANYTHING.Now he pays for EVERYTHING.My buddy.You may or may not want to hear it,but here goes.Right now the person who has done the most research to get this chassis into production,spent the most money and time is Dan Cashmere aka lenny from Dash.Love him or don't love him,he is anal about this project.This is not the place to take personal shots at someone either.There are alot of tough guys 1,000 miles away.This is not a side job for him.This is his living.Like everyone that has an interest in HT he is intitled to make a living.I argue with him also.We don't talk for awhile then we start again.He is trying to get this thing perfect because we all know how crazy t-jet guys are.Just ask any AFX or Tyco guy.The idea of some t-jet type of cartel with Hombre Beers at the helm is nice but you need someone with deep pockets to fall back on.I think it's 8 out of 10 new businesses fail because of money problems.Everyone who is involved with this hobby already knows about this project and I don' see a big gold rush to join in.Harrison's chassis had production problems and he tried to fix it but he was slaughtered.AW's Tom Lowe was given the chance to fix Tom Lowe's JL/AFX chassis.I'm an optimist by nature but I think this won't fly.So whoever comes out with the chassis give them a chance.Thank's Tom Stumpf


----------



## oddrods

tomhocars said:


> Right now the person who has done the most research to get this chassis into production,spent the most money and time is Dan Cashmere aka lenny from Dash.


I personally would rather buy chassis from dash than invest in another but from his posts as of late he seems very pissed off at the HO community as a whole. It would seem as if his chassis project has stalled. I like the majority of the Dash products and have bought a bunch direct and from venders. They are much better in my opinion than offerings from AW. I have no doubt that if Dan produces a chassis it will be very high quality. I just hope he will not give up on the HO community and actually produce it.
Rob


----------



## SplitPoster

thanks Tom, that post clarifies quite a bit. The other thread with the pledge list raised more questions than it answered - this puts things in a bit clearer light. I do think "shareholders" are a good idea - some of them would be the ones to drive awareness and demand in their own locales. That is if they actually had reason to care if the company succeeded. There's that yet-to-be-announced business model again. Yes, There is a place in your local hobby store.... 

But how does seeing the potential CEO pledge only 10 shares strike anyone else? Not that I am trying to determine what amount is appropriate for whom, but who would have a better idea of how the plan would play out? And it's not worth more than a 1% stake? I mean, the grand national prize vintage T bird was how many multiples of that? I don't know, but I would guess substantially more than 25x. Of course the T bird has lasting, broadly appealing (ie. liquid) value: aesthetic, functional and investment grade..... This is like Chinese food while it's still in the wok - a lot of steam, hard to see if there is any meat (or fish...) there.


----------



## AfxToo

Tom, thank you for standing up for Dan and his Dash venture. I agree with everything you said and implied about Dan and his dedication to his business. He's laid it all on the line with his venture, and if he comes across a bit intense, it's because he wears his heart on his sleeve and wants nothing more than seeing his efforts and dedication result in products that make us happy to spend a tiny bit of our discretionary income on. He probably takes negative feedback about as well as any of us would, negative scrutiny is hard to deal with, but you learn, move on, and step up to lay it all on the line the next time around. He's still taking his swings and delivering value. What's a lighthearted diversion for us is a very serious, bread and butter, family money on the line, business situation for him, and I might add, all of the vendors and manufacturers that contribute to this small hobby.

Creating something, anything really, is 1000 times harder than destroying something. It takes a trained architect with many years of education, experience, and a small army of highly skilled workers to build a bridge, but it only takes one idiot with a box of TNT to blow it up. My hat's off to the creators, the builders, the highly driven businessmen, and those who seek to bring something better to our lives. They deserve their rewards.

I wish the BobJet venture all the best. For it to be so he has to go in with both eyes wide open and run it as a real business, not an online fantasy game. If someone who's been down the same path offers up some pointers, listen up and learn from their hard earned experiences.


----------



## tjd241

SplitPoster said:


> .... how does seeing the potential CEO pledge only 10 shares strike anyone else?


Personally, I don't mind. This is a mere discussion to seek out hypothetical fannies for seats. Besides that, I could only ever look at this from the perspective of my own personal use and needs (which are small potatoes with a 1 share) and under my own personal budget constraints and exposure to loss (obviously also small potatoes). 

This all might just be a moot point anyways. With only about 50 committed it is becoming clear that Bob's assertion that there would not be even 100 out there... is apparently true. Which is also fine by me. I'll just continue getting them like I do now... only as I can afford them. 

nd


----------



## PumaT

*Great Thread -- Curious though ...*

While I am primarily a reader on this board, as opposed to a frequent contributor, I have found this thread to be one of the most interesting, ever. I believe the original point was to prove the potential T-Jet “exact clone” market was insufficient to support the initial capital outlay and the eventual on-going production business model. 

What I have gleaned from these posts is that, for most of these folks, this is a hobby; and, they would like to find a good, true replacement for T-Jet chassis at a reasonable price (less than $10 ?). They are not specifically interested in becoming shareholders of a “for profit” business that produces these chassis. Others are looking at the proposition as a business and, as we can read, that is a whole different scenario.

As I have just recently become engrossed in accumulating and tinkering with these old T-Jets (which I had as a young teen in the late 60’s), I am not as aware of the recent history as the majority of the frequent posters are. As such, I have some gaps in my understanding as to why the current market does not have the “exact clone”. Is there a chance that some of you could help me understand a few things?

-	The ThunderPlus chassis seems to be the closest attempt to recreate the original T-Jet. Other than the noted problems with the bad armatures, is there something else about this version that would make it unacceptable? I have a few of these – if you replace the armatures, they seem fine. 
-	Why are the JL/AW T-Jet 500’s copies of the Tuff One instead of the original? Couldn’t they rather easily change the gearing from a 15 to a 9; replace the magnets with some a little less powerful; and put thin tires on? That’s what I do with them. It could open another piece of the market to them.
-	Both the ThunderPlus and the JL/AW gear plate don’t quite fit the original T-Jet chassis. Is this possibly a patent issue? If that is true, wouldn’t any attempt to make the “exact clone” run into the same patent issue?
-	Whatever happened to the boxcars full of NOS chassis that some company (R.E.H.?) has stashed somewhere? Is this urban legend? 
-	Why are replacement parts so expensive and hard to find? Idler Gears for $1.50, Pick-up shoes for $2.00+ a pair, Springs for $1.00, Small Hubs 4 for $2.00 – heck, if you tried to build a complete chassis from parts it would cost about $50.00. I think there are some sellers on the bay that bought a bunch of complete ThunderPlus chassis and have stripped them down to sell for parts. 

Just curious.

Dave.


----------



## vaBcHRog

My biggest gripe about the Tunder Pluss and JL/AW is that the wheelbase is not the same. It is off on both of them enough taht when you mount one of these chassis on an orginal body you can see the difference. You can fix a bad armature crappy wheels, bent axles etc but the only wat to correct the wheelbase is to modify the chassis which is taboo for most TJET folks.

Roger Corrie


----------



## afxgns

tomhocars said:


> NOTHING.I know Bob when he wouldn't pay for ANYTHING.Now he pays for EVERYTHING.My buddy.You may or may not want to hear it,but here goes.Right now the person who has done the most research to get this chassis into production,spent the most money and time is Dan Cashmere aka lenny from Dash.Love him or don't love him,he is anal about this project.This is not the place to take personal shots at someone either.There are alot of tough guys 1,000 miles away.This is not a side job for him.This is his living.Like everyone that has an interest in HT he is intitled to make a living.I argue with him also.We don't talk for awhile then we start again.He is trying to get this thing perfect because we all know how crazy t-jet guys are.Just ask any AFX or Tyco guy.The idea of some t-jet type of cartel with Hombre Beers at the helm is nice but you need someone with deep pockets to fall back on.I think it's 8 out of 10 new businesses fail because of money problems.Everyone who is involved with this hobby already knows about this project and I don' see a big gold rush to join in.Harrison's chassis had production problems and he tried to fix it but he was slaughtered.AW's Tom Lowe was given the chance to fix Tom Lowe's JL/AFX chassis.I'm an optimist by nature but I think this won't fly.So whoever comes out with the chassis give them a chance.Thank's Tom Stumpf


All I was doing was trying to stand up for a friend. I didn't badmouth anyone. It very apparent that Lenny is doing is own thing and we all have an idea of what he thinks and why.
There are those who choose to try this coarse of action. You have stated that you think it will fail, and I hope you are wrong. 
We all look forward to the day Lenny starts selling his product, I can promise you I will buy many of them.

:wave:


----------



## A/FX Nut

lenny said:


> I've spent about 2 years so far trying to get quotes, samples, prototype parts, etc. Last year right around this time I was probably the closest, I actually had magnets and armature samples that I sent to SwamperGene. The magnets were great, there were some things with the arm that needed to be worked out. The factory was less than willing to do any further work on the armature until I paid 50% of the tooling. I was unwilling to pay anything towards tooling until I had a solid, good to go prototype. So it went nowhere. And I've approached other companies and have received better estimates and lower tooling costs, which will sting alot less if the product truly sucks.
> 
> Overall, I've had great success dealing with the Commies. Their communication is better than what I've experienced with US companies. In particular, I approached Paramount, the US company that produced the chassis for Model Motoring. If their communication with me was any indication of how they dealt with Harrison Woodrow, I feel very sorry for Harrison. They are probably one of the most unprofessional outfits I have ever dealt with.
> 
> The same is true for some companies that I've approached in the past 2 years to try to do some of what I do, back to the US. It would literally take weeks to get a reply, after multiple emails. I haven't had that same lousy experience with overseas companies. If anything, they are a bit too aggressive in trying to get business.
> 
> I just think it's hilarious and hypocritical and way too easy to dump on overseas firms and to jump on the 'Made in the US' bandwagon. There's a reason US firms are outsourcing production overseas, mostly to cut costs.
> 
> Tonight I took my daughter to gymnastics and spent an hour walking around a local Wal-Mart noting where items were made. Here's a brief list, in no particular order other than where the items were as I walked around:
> 
> PAAS Egg coloring kits - China
> Stuffed Bunny - China
> 
> Nicoderm gum - Denmark
> 
> Various pet toys - all China
> Pet beds - China
> Aquarium filter - China
> All Glass Aquarium - US (actually Milwaukee, I've heard the founder/owner drives a yellow Saleen)
> 
> Brita water filter - pitcher made in China, other parts made in Canada. Assembled in Canada.
> 
> Black and Decker Hand Vac - China
> 
> Black and Decker Coffee Maker - China
> 
> Black and Decker power drill - China
> 
> Stanley crescent wrench - China
> 
> Master Lock padlock (a milwaukee company) - this surprised me. Masterlock had a production facility in Milwaukee for years. The lock I picked up was made in China
> 
> Here's another WI company that puts out a quality product that many people on this board use. Dremel. For years these were made in the US, in Racine, WI. The one I picked up today was made in China.
> 
> Peerless faucet - China
> 
> ATV Battery - China
> 
> I was finally able to find some US made items in the paint aisle, and Goodyear tires were marked as made in US
> 
> Bosch Spark Plugs - Germany
> 
> Fram oil filters - US
> 
> Champion spark plugs - Mexico
> 
> Shakespear fishing reel - China
> 
> Almost all toys - China
> 
> Magnavox DVD player - China
> 
> and on and on...
> 
> US made items were few and far between.
> 
> How did we get to this point as a country?


Those Goodyear tires you can buy at Wal-Mart have the letter "W" stamped on them. They are of a lesser quality than the ones you can buy at a Goodyear retailer. 

Wal-Mart went to Cub Cadet and told them they wanted to sell their Lawn Tractors. Wal-Mart gave them a list of lower quality parts to use in the tractors Wal-Mart would sell. Cub Cadet refused. Randy.


----------



## slotcarman12078

Sadly, this is why stimulous checks only work so far.. The retailers get a little boost from the sales, but the lions share of the stimulus $$$ goes out of the country.. The more dependant we become on imported goods, the weaker a nation we become.


----------



## T-Jet Racer

lenny said:


> I've spent about 2 years so far trying to get quotes, samples, prototype parts, etc. Last year right around this time I was probably the closest, I actually had magnets and armature samples that I sent to SwamperGene. The magnets were great, there were some things with the arm that needed to be worked out. The factory was less than willing to do any further work on the armature until I paid 50% of the tooling. I was unwilling to pay anything towards tooling until I had a solid, good to go prototype. So it went nowhere. And I've approached other companies and have received better estimates and lower tooling costs, which will sting alot less if the product truly sucks.
> 
> Overall, I've had great success dealing with the Commies. Their communication is better than what I've experienced with US companies. In particular, I approached Paramount, the US company that produced the chassis for Model Motoring. If their communication with me was any indication of how they dealt with Harrison Woodrow, I feel very sorry for Harrison. They are probably one of the most unprofessional outfits I have ever dealt with.
> 
> The same is true for some companies that I've approached in the past 2 years to try to do some of what I do, back to the US. It would literally take weeks to get a reply, after multiple emails. I haven't had that same lousy experience with overseas companies. If anything, they are a bit too aggressive in trying to get business.
> 
> I just think it's hilarious and hypocritical and way too easy to dump on overseas firms and to jump on the 'Made in the US' bandwagon. There's a reason US firms are outsourcing production overseas, mostly to cut costs.
> 
> Tonight I took my daughter to gymnastics and spent an hour walking around a local Wal-Mart noting where items were made. Here's a brief list, in no particular order other than where the items were as I walked around:
> 
> PAAS Egg coloring kits - China
> Stuffed Bunny - China
> 
> Nicoderm gum - Denmark
> 
> Various pet toys - all China
> Pet beds - China
> Aquarium filter - China
> All Glass Aquarium - US (actually Milwaukee, I've heard the founder/owner drives a yellow Saleen)
> 
> Brita water filter - pitcher made in China, other parts made in Canada. Assembled in Canada.
> 
> Black and Decker Hand Vac - China
> 
> Black and Decker Coffee Maker - China
> 
> Black and Decker power drill - China
> 
> Stanley crescent wrench - China
> 
> Master Lock padlock (a milwaukee company) - this surprised me. Masterlock had a production facility in Milwaukee for years. The lock I picked up was made in China
> 
> Here's another WI company that puts out a quality product that many people on this board use. Dremel. For years these were made in the US, in Racine, WI. The one I picked up today was made in China.
> 
> Peerless faucet - China
> 
> ATV Battery - China
> 
> I was finally able to find some US made items in the paint aisle, and Goodyear tires were marked as made in US
> 
> Bosch Spark Plugs - Germany
> 
> Fram oil filters - US
> 
> Champion spark plugs - Mexico
> 
> Shakespear fishing reel - China
> 
> Almost all toys - China
> 
> Magnavox DVD player - China
> 
> and on and on...
> 
> US made items were few and far between.
> 
> How did we get to this point as a country?


I seem to recall that the Aurora t-jets were made in Hong Kong, please correct me if I am mistaken......


----------



## SplitPoster

Thoughtful discourse and entertainment value near and dear to everyone's heart... can't be beat. 

Some silliness afoot. I don't think you can draw any conclusions whatsoever about the future of the B Jet or whatever from the "pledge list." In this case one is pledging dollars (about as soft a pledge as can be) toward a product that hasn't been re-designed, sourced or prototyped from a company that does not exist, or is it an individual, or affiliated group? Fun to knock around and conceptualize in a thread. Less than meaningless in a financial/business sense at this point. If somebody is sitting on $500 or $5000 of money to put to use somewhere, where is the incentive to pony up? Forget dividends, appreciation, etc. - there aren't any assets at this point. 

If the project is offered by an existing company - that could be Dash - with a track record of actually producing and distributing merchandise that would change, wouldn't it?

My point on investment is this - the big players in the vintage slot car world have single slot cars and prototypes easily worth more than $500 a piece, and loads of semi-priceless memorobilia. All that stuff has secure worth, as the market goes. The logical progression is that these folks will spend money, sometimes major-huge money, when there is gratification and value. So what are we lacking here right now? When this project reaches that threshhold maybe more folks will want to be involved in a bigger way.


----------



## bearsox

bumpercar88 said:


> . Will Bob be in China or India to keep an eye on QC? How else could you prevent the Thunderplus armature or JL/AW enlarged axle hole problems from sinking the investment? Are we talking about a replication of the original to include metal gears or are we looking to improve the original design? Needless to say research and development costs to improve the original can once again sink this ship before it ever leaves the dock!


 *IF you make a product in China or India you TRY to do the best you can to stack the contract in your favor production wise. How ? By insertion of right of 1st refusal. What that is would be you pay upfront for tooling and once setup is done they run a short run of product and samples are sent back for 1st approval. If good you start the initial run. If bad right of 1st refusal allows you to either quit and recoupe ALL tooling costs ( written in contract ) or force a rework of tooling to fix problem. Next again as part of contract you have right of random sample reviews . In this senario they pull a piece at your selected interval for inspection . If out of tolerance or other problem exists ... again they must fix problem for run to continue. If you write a solid contract SOME of the chance for problems is minimized. Now before someone says that won't work ... it does has and will as i have done just that !!! BTW some American co's will likely use a similar contract but likely not refund all tooling cost. All the same it never hurts to ask or try ! 
Dennis :wave:*


----------



## noddaz

*Good to hear...*

Good to hear that there are people here with expirence with these sorts of things...


----------



## bumpercar88

Enforcing a contract or protecting intellectual property in China? Good luck, companies w/ deep pockets have had problems such as Callaway golf clubs. However maybe our items would be too low budget to worry about knock offs. Still think you would need a company man on site to watch the broth.


----------



## bearsox

bumpercar88 said:


> Enforcing a contract or protecting intellectual property in China? Good luck, companies w/ deep pockets have had problems such as Callaway golf clubs. However maybe our items would be too low budget to worry about knock offs. Still think you would need a company man on site to watch the broth.


 *Contract enforcement is possible and infact likely . However as you say intellectual property is another story. Seems they will want your hopefull repeat business so they would honor the contract basics. On the other hand they are not above using your dies or tools on other projects. A point to remember though is that the chassis for a JL or AW is not an exact match for the orig Aurora chassis so right of 1st refusal and subsequent production checks would find that switch were it to be made against you. Best as you say to have a man with abilities you trust on scene to monitor.

Dennis :freak:*


----------



## tlowe

Could you guys agree on what exactly needs to be modified on my existing T-Jet chassis?

Tom Lowe


----------



## dlw

The only 'major' problems with the chassis (both XT&TO) are untrue rims & gears, and occasional crooked axles. One thing I'd like to see tweaked is to use the same rubber/silicone mix recipe you use for the XT's on the Thunderjets. The TJ's tires are a bit hard and doesn't grip at all.

The trucks are a hit. Only artistic problem........needs stripes. Only Technical problem, the connector pegs are too small and too thin for the holes. The trailers ride so wobbly in the curves and fall off to easily.

The 4-gears problems are again, the bad rims and occasional gears. Bodywise, another hit. 

P.S. Nice to see you're lurking and posting, Tom. One more thing, need 4-gear pitkits.


----------



## martybauer31

tlowe said:


> Could you guys agree on what exactly needs to be modified on my existing T-Jet chassis?
> 
> Tom Lowe


Go back to the original T-Jet gearing with the 9 pin driver pinion gear. With the 14 tooth in there it's like an on/off switch.

I also agree on the above comment on gears and rims being untrue. I am admittedly not a fan of the nickel electrical either.

On the upside, the armatures are great, I haven't had any that are bad, and I do like your bodies.

Thanks for asking!


----------



## A/FX Nut

tlowe said:


> Could you guys agree on what exactly needs to be modified on my existing T-Jet chassis?
> 
> Tom Lowe



My biggest problems have been with bent axles and out of round rims. Sometimes the chassis is warped. 

Magnets and armatures are great. Pick up shoes, brushes, electrical from brushes to shoes are great. Randy.


----------



## slotcarman12078

*Holy Moley Tom's here!!!*

Nice to have you on Tom!!! 

1). Absolutely agree with the 9 tooth pinion and the brass gears!!! These would be a welcome change to the runnability of the T Jets!!! 

2). Tighten up the tolerances on the gear train

3). Some nicer looking wheel/tire sets would be great also!! 

4). I for one am quite pleased with the quality workmanship on your bodys. We do have a tendancy to nit-pick the fine details on some, but we also realize there's only so much you can do working around the dimensional constraints of the chassis. There is one awesome thing you could do that would really tickle a bunch of us.. We customizers go through a great amount of labor to strip paint off to have a clean slate to work with. The BTTF Delorean and the White corvette just didn't cut it. What are the possibilities of getting unfinished kits complete with chrome bumpers, window glass and plain white bodys?? I mean good cars.. like the novas, the suburbans, etc..


----------



## 1976Cordoba

tlowe said:


> Could you guys agree on what exactly needs to be modified on my existing T-Jet chassis?
> 
> Tom Lowe


Ditto to what has been mentioned, plus I would add that the axle holes in the chassis are far too big. It is less of a problem on the front, but at the back it can, and does, cause gear train binding which has a negative effect on how the chassis runs.

Thanks for listening.


----------



## bearsox

tlowe said:


> Could you guys agree on what exactly needs to be modified on my existing T-Jet chassis?
> 
> Tom Lowe


* Hi Tom ,
thanks so much for dropping in and actually taking the time to ask this question. All to often guys don't ask the clients or worse yet berate or belittle them when they do and give an opinion. I sincerly hope guys appreciate you dropping in and asking and i hope you take with you some constructive critiques . There are allways options to improve most anything but at what cost ? Well i think just a couple of what i would call soft tweaks would make huge gains. Folks are correct that the axles are a major issue so a good fix would be using a drill blank ( .0635 dia ) as the replacement rear axle as it would aleve bends and run true at a fair cost swap. Next would be rims as if you get rid of the molded rims in favor of machined ( CNC / screw ) single or double flanged rims made from delrin ... again they would run true and smooth. Now there are other things you could do but if you did ( in the name of cost ) only these 2 things the chassis would run sooooo much better you would be amazed. Now if you happened to have just a tad more you wanted to put in to the chassis then a change of tires to straight silicone ( not standard rubber or silicone and hard rubber mix ) slipons would top off the iced cake ! You have a very good arm and magnets and a workable chassis and while changing the the plating away from nickel would help or the gearing back to a 9 tooth would be nice i think the biggest fix is in the porifery items like axles , rims and tires. Anway once again i wish to say thanks so much for asking and good luck.

Dennis Rutherford
Road Rage HO :wave:*


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## resinmonger

*Hutt's Point of View*

Tom, 

Thank you for the opportunity to discuss the Auto World (AW) chassis. My likes are given first:

1) The armatures and magnets in both the Thunder Jet 500 and X-Traction are excellent. These AW parts are asignificant improvement over the original Aurora chassis in terms of over all performance and consistancy of performance. 

2) The move to the medium with front tires and wheels in the last few releases is good IMHO. It gives the cars a more realistic appearance realitive to the rear wheel width. 

3) I am good with the pick up shoes, brushes, and their respective springs. I have given live to NOS chassis using these JL or AW parts as well as the armatures and magnets. 

Of course, there are some things that I would be happy to see revised. I think your sales would improve if the following items were addressed.

1) While it may increase cost, I would like to see copper chassis electrical components. I would pay more for this versus the current chassis.

2) Work with your suppliers to improve part and assembly quality. One of the recurring themes you will find on this forum is new people having trouble with gear mesh, tight/loose chassis holes for axles/armature and wheel/axle wobble. Guys that have been running pancake chassis for decades know how to work these issues. People new to the hobby don't have these years of expeience and either find help or end up thinking the product is poor. This hurts your sales and reputation.

3) Wheel style is an area where you have an opportunity to improve sales. Look at the Aurora AFX/Magnatraction's variety of wheels and your find people will select one NOS car over a similar one based on the wheels. I assume a significant number of your sales go to collectors. Collectors and racers alike would be happy to see your cars have different wheels. Colectors woul have a new goal for their collecting - get the different wheel options. Racers would love it. Kids seem to focus on wheels as well. You'll see young men put as much in their 1:1 car's wheels as they spent on the car.

4) Personally, I am OK with the gear ratios. Many other prefer converting to a 9 tooth pinion gear. Aurora gave people the option to change the ratios on the T-Jet chassis. You could make a gear "tuning set" for your cars with different cluster gear/crown gear sets: a 9 tooth pinion/matched crown and 12 tooth pinion/matched crown. A crown gear with more than 15 teeth might also be an option. The Super II had a 19 tooth crown. Perhaps 17 teeth would be a compromise for different tracks. The cluster gear would benefit from a little more robust cluster gear shaft and the "tuning kit" could include a small tool for swaging the shaft to the chassis just like Aurora included a small screw driver in their kits.

5) You have released some very nice bodies. My only issue is they tend to ride high on the chassis. The design team would serve your product image well by making future release bodies come close to the bottom edge of the chassis. Note that there is a art of compromise here. If one simply make the heigth of the body side taller, the cars will look cartoonish. The current bodies have good proportions IMHO. They just need to sit lower even if it means tubbing (covering the very tops of) the tires.

6) If you had a way back machine, I would ask that the chassis and gear plates match their Aurora counterparts. If you made that change, you would lose interchangeability with all of you previously produced product. We can lament over this for the rest of time unless you want to offer Aurora chassis/gear plates as stand alone parts. This would give you product interchangeability for the current line and fill a need of the owners of some of those millions of chassis Aurora produced.

7) Please make spares parts available to your suppliers. While Aurora, Tyco, Mattel and Tomy each sell or sold "pit kits", they also had individual parts available. These collectively cost more than a complete out-of-the-box chassis and this was acceptable. I think the lack of spares was a significant point in the buy/no-buy decisions people made on the Super III chassis. I know it affected my own decision.

I firmly believe that there is one more opportunity to improve sales. You have a line of cool cars. Pick up an old Faller AMS catalog or look through the old Aurora catalogs and you will find each offered series of model building kits to enhance the appearance of an owner's track. Collectors seek these out today and significant prices. The 1:32 slot car business models used by Carrera, Scalextric and others have made these offerings integral components of thier total line up. The 1:32 companies also offer figure sets to complement the structures and enhance the overall experience for the customer. These would have collector appear as well. Lastly, you make track. Consider making turn aprons for the available families of trck and for the available turn radii. This is another component of the successful 1:32 business model. 

Thank you for taking the time to read my thoughts on your product. Please feelfree to PM or email me if you would like to discuss this further.

Russ the Hutt


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## micyou03

9 tooth pinion and skinny tires, and the quality issues mentioned above. I too like the arms, magnets, and bodies, although most of them should be lower.


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## AfxToo

Tom, thank you so much for posting. I hope that you get some thoughtful responses. You do bring up a good point though about getting general agreement about what exactly needs to be modified. There's a wide spectrum of opinions on this as you will undoubtedly see. 

1) At one extreme are the Aurora TJet purists who will say, _make it an exact clone of the Aurora TJet_, warts and all, as long as it's exactly the same all is well with the TJet universe. Some deviation from purity is probably allowed in area of magnets, since your magnets are pretty much the standard for even those purists who allow for no other changes from The Standard. As others have said, this would mean standard gearing in brass, standard 2-lam arm at the standard resistance, copper electricals, skinny wheels and tires, exactly cloned chassis dimensions from stem to stern. 

2) In the middle, I think you'll find a lot of folks who would just like to see the current version AutoWorld TJets tightened up a bit in the tolerances so they run a little truer and smoother even without the UltraG magnet to keep them planted. Metal gears, standard ratio rather than TuffOnes gear ratio, less free play in the axles, maybe some variations with skinny wheels and tires, more wheel options, just to name a few subtle tweaks that would raise the bar, albeit with a probable increase in the price. 

3) At the other end of the spectrum are the TJet progressives, those who see a new run of TJets as a primo opportunity to correct all of the blemishes and flaws in the original, ancient design, to maybe make it something better than its Neanderthal ancestors while preserving Pancake Essence. These radicals would want to see things like double flanged rims, perhaps with realistic wheel designs, tighter tolerances on all bearing surfaces, maybe some different arm combinations to differentiate "stock" from "SS" variations, modern arm construction techniques like on the Aurora Super II QuadraLam, lightweight metal gears, non magnetic axles, maybe even something totally insane like a snap-in rear axle. 

The BobJet contingent is definitely more aligned with #1 than the other parts of the spectrum, and no matter the tweaks you make to your current chassis, if it isn't the #1 option there are a number of folks who will never accept it. I'm more of a #3, still praising the day the A/FX arrived on the scene to replace the archaic TJet, and would love to see the 21st century arrive to Pancakeville, but I still like your existing products a ton and there's no denying the incredible bang for the buck they deliver.

Thanks again for being open to constructive feedback.


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## slotcarman12078

I guess I'm a type 2 person!! I'm just tired of buying 9 tooth pinion gears and the shuffle of swapping out the plastic 14 tooth. I would like an exact copy for the ease of having a chassis that does what I want without having to buy extra parts to slow it down. (ok I'm the oddball :lol: ) If Tom was able to even make a 9 tooth kit with the 9 tooth pinion and corresponding crown gear I would be happy. It saddens me thinking of all the NOS Aurora chassis getting parted out nowadays. 

On a positive note since I assume you will see this here, Tom, I just received my first 2 Semi's today. I was a pleasure to open them up, oil them, trim the guides and have them run great right off the bat!!! No tweaking, no fighting to get them moving, and the finish is awesome!!! They may have been delayed, but obviously the wait was well worth it!!! Nice job!! :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## SplitPoster

Great to see TL reading and posting - thanks! Always opens you up to a lot of criticism and late-night rants, but I guess that's part of the game.

Closer tolerances and true running gear of course, and all the comments about wheels and tires apply for me too (I don't care for T/O stance if I am looking for more scale appearence), but availability of loose parts/hop-up mods/and a manual (pamplet I guess) for retail dealers would really help. The hobby shop guys around here are used to troubleshooting/fixing/tuning/hot rodding all kinds of r/c stuff, but when somebody walks in with a poorly working (for whatever reason) t jet there is nothing to fall back on - maybe the shop exchanges it, maybe they won't and the customer gets mad and walks out - I've seen the latter happen. Like it or not, for various reasons pancake chassis have a lot more potential issues than inlines. People buy from a good full service retailer, they expect help if they need it. Plus, the hobby shop guys where I go like to fool around with stuff, understand it, and be able to explain it to customers. Place a "factory" parts kit (little plastic compartment box) at retail stores with loose replacement parts (provides a place to introduce those new ones too) and see if retail sales/orders/inquiries pick up. Let people add or mix and match parts - it helps improve the "use it and throw it away" attitude too.

I think you could sell loose bodies too.

Once again, thanks for asking.


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## Gear Head

Tom,

Ditto on axle, wheel, tire and rear axle hole improvement.

Change only rear gear plate gear to brass, tighten up it's shaft hole, use 9 tooth brass pinion gear and equip with narrow rims and tires of silicone compound such as xtraction rears and make sure they too are true.

Armatures, brushes, shoe springs are outstanding. Magnets could be a little weaker. Brass chassis hardware would be nice but not mandatory.

Don't mind stance of bodies because I lower every car of any brand anyway and it gives people that option. Likewise, utilizing narrower rims and tires as mentioned above adds to the ability to lower the car and add a realistic look to it.

Bodies, colors, and selection are awesome!

Your patience, perseverance, and willingness to listen are second to none.

Thanks for all that you do for the hobby,

Jason


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## T-Jet Racer

One thing I would really like to see is the wheel base match up with the original Aurora T-jet. with other body manufactures out there, it is upsetting to have to pick and choose what will fit who's bodies. I think everyone would agree that your tjet chassis is powerfull enough, and I personally like to use them on all my cars but there is the wheelbase problem. The other things are like the other people have stated, the axel holes need to be tighter to eliminate the excess play. Would I like metal gears sure, but it would drive the cost up and that is something I dont think would be well tolerated. Perhaps a gear kit as a "hop up" kit. 

Now for the x/tractions
The front axel holes are too large and the axels have a lot of play in them.
the medium wheels should get dropped in both the t-jet and x/trac chassis. the tires on the 4 gear fronts are great, use them on the xtraction with a proper hub to fit them. 

Thanks for comming in Mr. Lowe, I know everyone is glad to see your interest in H.O. scale is still there.
Regards 
Chris Marren


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## Dslot

*Slimlines, please*

Tom,

Not quite what you asked, but I'd like to put in a word for a new *slimline* chassis with performance on a par with a _standard_ (not Slimline) NOS T-jet . Or better. Demand for Slimline chassis is low because of the original's poor performance. Hotter chassis would increase demand greatly. They've been hard to find for years, so there is some pent-up demand. I think an initial release of
four '60s F1s to complement the old Aurora Brabham and BRM,
four front-engined Indy cars, and
four older open-wheeled racers ('30s to '50s)
 would sell out instantly, and open new markets to boot. Next release could include open-wheel '50s street rods.

Desirable features:
1. As narrow or narrower than the original Slimlines.
2. Will accept original Slimline bodies.
3. Performance equal or better than NOS standard T-jet.
4. Removable dot-magnet.
5. Ground clearance, without magnet, same as original.
6. Narrowed and skeletonized front end so '30s cars and hotrods won't look so clunky.
7. Eliminate or minimize "running board" brush mounts on sides.
8. Wire-styled large wheels with proper old-style tires and racing spoke wheels with wide F1 tires.
9. Separate period-appropriate glue-in/snap-in driver figures included.

I'd love to see a spread of these five lines:
1. *X Traction* (as current)
2. *X Trac Specialty/Truck* (as current)
3. *ThunderJet 500* (Tuff Ones, as current)
4. *ThunderJet SS* (Street Stock - 9 Tooth gearing, narrow silicone rears, about twice the width of the stock ribbed tire, but still will fit inside orig. Tjet bodies)
5. *ThunderJet SL* (SlimLine) as discussed above.
Thanks for listening.

-- D


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## rodstrguy

Tom,

Thank You for asking our opinion on the products that you graciously produce. As most before me have stated... Gears,Tires, and Axles need to be true. I have over 300 of your cars (love 'em/hate 'em) and I would say a 1/3 of them have bad axles or wheels. The ones that run well are great, the others just become a challenge to me to fix. I'm glad I have axles and tires/wheels and other parts. 
Please put out more parts in pit kits, add to your current choices to a kit with custom wheels/tires, maybe the thin wheels like Road Race Replicas. Changeable rear gears would be good too.


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## PumaT

Mr. Lowe,

I, like many others on this board, would like to thank you for posting and asking the question, 

_“Could you guys agree on what exactly needs to be modified on my existing T-Jet chassis?”_

From the responses, I don’t know if you can get “total” agreement, but at least you have the opportunity to hear from this group of rather intense, all-in-all great bunch of knowledgeable folks, who understand not only what they would like but, that you have a business to keep profitable. It’s pretty clear to me that most of us generally like your products and believe you have done a wonderful job of keeping the prices low enough so that we can afford them.

For what it’s worth, put me in the category of a 9 tooth gear, thinner tires, and weaker magnets. Hopefully, that is something that can be produced with a minimal investment on your part and just be another product in your line. That is, after all, close to the original intent of this thread -- maybe not an exact T-Jet clone -- but something that might be possible within reasonable investment parameters. 

I have lots of your ThunderJet 500’s (many of which have been “downgraded” to 9 tooth gears with thin tires and weaker magnets). I think they are wonderful product for the price. Thanks, again, for your interest. 

Dave


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## resinmonger

Tom,

One additional opportunity comes to mind. Several people have mentioned a "customzing kit" with different wheels. This is a great idea. Let's build on that oncept. How about selling a customizing kit with engines, headers, drivers, induction and ram air scoops, wings (for the kids) and other items we all see put on 1:1 cars every day. This would appeal to diecast types as well as slot heads, young and old. 

Check out this thread over on the Diecast Customizing section to see their extreme make-over efforts.

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=251814

People ae buying Hot Wheels just to get parts for their customizing projects. You could get a share of those sales and expand them by offering a new set of parts a couple of times a year. Kids are into tuning so wheels and detail parts would help pull them towards your product. Us old skool types could do without wings but the kids drool over them. 

Some nice sheets of water slide decals would also let people make their cars more unique. Numbers and sponsors would be nice. The original Auto World sheet would be a gret base line to work from. But you could also have some carbon fibre segments that could be trimmed for hoods and other parts that 1:1 modders replace with bare carbon fibre. A sheet of stripes of various colors, widths, and patterns would also be sweet.

If you decide to take the weaker magnet, 9-thooth pinion, skinny tire chassis to heart, you almost have to brand it as _Old Skool T-Jet 500_.

Thanks for listening.

Russ


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## Grandcheapskate

tlowe said:


> Could you guys agree on what exactly needs to be modified on my existing T-Jet chassis?
> 
> Tom Lowe


Tom,
If I were to throw in my two cents worth, I would say complete interchangability (size wise) with the Aurora Thunderjet, and parts of high enough quality that they did not have to be replaced and/or corrected right out of the box.

There are of course tradeoffs. Making higher quality parts would raise the price of the car but attract more serious racers. A low priced lower quality chassis, such as we now have, appeals to solo home/basement racers who don't mind tinkering with the chassis, and those who use the chassis for display only. 

It's a decision you have to make as the manufacturer. Which market do you want to go after? You could probably have it both ways if that was your goal. Produce a high quality, higher priced chassis (brass gears, tighter tolerances) that would really appeal to those looking for an Aurora quality (or better) clone, while keeping the existing quality chassis (with some quality improvements as mentioned in earlier posts) for those who only race by themselves, for fun, or have a couple hundred chassis tied up in display cases.

The charm of the pancake chassis to me is it's overly complicated design and all the tuning you need to do to get it working just right. Inline chassis are much sleeker, having only two gears (pinion and crown). The T-Jet has five gears to do the same job. A lot more can go wrong with five gears, and there are a lot more tuning opportunities. The difference between a poorly tuned T-Jet and a well tuned T-Jet is far more noticable than any other chassis I've played with.

Interchangability, quality and easily affordable spare parts. Those are the three main areas I would address if I were King.

Thanks...Joe


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## coach61

Now is tom reading these or did he just stop in to stir the Beers project up? Seems he told us all in no uncertian terms we didn't have to buy his product if we didn't like it last time anyone suggested anything...just curious hope its with sincerity this time...

Dave


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## AfxToo

Keep the motor magnets strong. 

Strong magnets mean cooler running motors, especially on pancake powered cars that have too little magnetic mass in the arm. The JL/AW magnets have been a godsend to anyone who has raced a TJet in the past 5 years. Asking for weaker magnets is like asking for one of your lungs to be removed before running a marathon. No thanks.

Keep those *answers* coming, boys.


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## coach61

why is this in bobs thread? who has the hidden agenda this time? ANSWERS? hows this one?

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=185812


And Gee Dan posts and everyone gets on his butt, Tom Posts and its becomes the love boat.. not fair guys not fair at all..

BTW Look at Toms profile.. he has not been back on as I suspected, just stirring the pot..I stuck up for him HUGE last time and took a lot of flack. now that BOB wants to build a new chassis, he comes in with his sarcasim well tell Whats wrong then.. its all fine till we all take our lil, cars and go home.. Now BACK on the TOPIC...


Bob, how is the idea forming up? have you interested enough investors? Please start a new thread this one has bene highjacked by somone a little nervous....


Dave..

Pointing out Bull since 2005


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## AfxToo

> Dan posts and everyone gets on his butt


Not true, not everyone. Anyone who has anything positive to contribute to the hobby is always welcome. Both Dan and Tom have been major positive influences on the hobby, as has Bob Beers, who is very much respected and admired in the hobby. There's plenty of love to go around, you don't have to pick sides.

These threads can and do evolve as new ideas are presented and assumptions are challenged. This particular topic is very much a _thought experiment_ as Bob himself alluded to. One of the tenets of the scientific method is to form a hypothesis (_def: # Something taken to be true for the purpose of argument or investigation; an assumption._) and then to test the hypothesis. Tom's question is merely testing the hypothesis that the current TJet chassis offerings that are on the market do not fulfill the need. As users of Tom's products we've been _conducting the experiments_ that test the hypothesis and our answers are the results of those experiments. This is an even better outcome than the _thought experiment_ that launched this thread could have hoped for, because now we're talking real data from real lab rats. 

What more could someone looking to jump into a market ask for? Free market research, free "voice of the customer" obtained for a pittance. So yes, answers are the key factor here, for everyone involved. Picking scabs off old wounds: big waste of time, very predictable outcome, and serves no purpose. Answers: they have value, they can be cashed in, they should not be squandered, collect them and put them to good use.


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## coach61

AfxToo said:


> Not true, not everyone. Anyone who has anything positive to contribute to the hobby is always welcome. Both Dan and Tom have been major positive influences on the hobby, as has Bob Beers, who is very much respected and admired in the hobby. There's plenty of love to go around, you don't have to pick sides.
> 
> These threads can and do evolve as new ideas are presented and assumptions are challenged. This particular topic is very much a _thought experiment_ as Bob himself alluded to. One of the tenets of the scientific method is to form a hypothesis (_def: # Something taken to be true for the purpose of argument or investigation; an assumption._) and then to test the hypothesis. Tom's question is merely testing the hypothesis that the current TJet chassis offerings that are on the market do not fulfill the need. As users of Tom's products we've been _conducting the experiments_ that test the hypothesis and our answers are the results of those experiments. This is an even better outcome than the _thought experiment_ that launched this thread could have hoped for, because now we're talking real data from real lab rats.
> 
> What more could someone looking to jump into a market ask for? Free market research, free "voice of the customer" obtained for a pittance. So yes, answers are the key factor here, for everyone involved. Picking scabs off old wounds: big waste of time, very predictable outcome, and serves no purpose. Answers: they have value, they can be cashed in, they should not be squandered, collect them and put them to good use.


Fair enough, and I truly hope your right.

Dave


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## resinmonger

AfxToo, I agree with 90% of your thoughts. However, my personal observation is that Coach is 100% on target when he says any discussion with Dash Dan (AKA Lenny) quickly becomes a Dan Bash Fest. 

Look at my posts #27 and #70 in this thread. Dan commented on an estimate for some parts and I asked him to weigh in on the overall topic. Followers of the HO forums know that Dan has been investigating this topic for awhile and it is his business not his hobby. By post #70, I felt like a total *butt wipe *for dragging the guy into _bashville_ and gave my apology for doing so. You guys know I mostly kid around but I really did feel pretty bad about what went down and felt some responsibility (real or imagined - it's all the same to me) for getting Dan in a cross-fire.

I'm in no way saying that is products are pure perfection. But we do have a lot of cool options for our hobby thanks to Dan. Also, having personaly failed in a hobby business, I can identify with his sensitivity. Call it thin skin or what ever. When it's you major dough on the line, negative comments seem a lot less humerous than they would if you were just dabblying around making your own stuff on weekends.

So, I just ask that we give some respect to any manufacturer or budding entrepreneur (like CEO Bob if he does launch an manufacturing effort versus the current study) that shows us respect by dropping by our forum. I beg your indulgence on this issue.

OK, I'll get off the structurally einforced soap box and go back to Hutt humor now.


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## Jetracer

*new chassis question Lenny, Beers, Lowe*

Im all for a new chassis but can understand how much of a risk it is both finacially and how it is accepted by all in involved in this hobby.
My question is this. Why is it so important to do a complete chassis to bring to market? Why not start with something like the top plate and base chassis? If done right it would be a good jumping off point and would generate revenue to develope the arm ect.
Use the resources available such as the avaid racers/builders as they are more likely to be able to tell you what is needed for the chassis to be "right". Someone such as Rick Terry who has proven that he will take the time to make the items needed correctly.
I would think if a chassis/top plate combo was made that was high quality and accepted original parts it would be very viable right out of the box from both a racer and collector standpoint and would be a success. 
No one is pickier than a racer when it comes to these chassis and their tolerances. Make the racer happy and the collectors should easily fall in line.
I posted this on the howorld board and recieved no response, curious as to whether I will get one here.
Let the grumbling begin!


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## partspig

*Chassis question answer?*

I went back and looked for your post on the HOWL list and could not find it. Can you find the post number so I can look back and see. The only other explanation that no replies were given is if you buried your query under some other subject line. Instead of being read everyone could have deleted the posting. On the other hand, I received this email from GrayBeard about that very subject, and I quote in its entirety: 

"<<< sell the chassis' without front or rear axles, hubs, tires, pick up
shoes etc. thereby saving a bit on the cost and allowing the racers to
customize them to the class of racing they are participating in. >>>> 

I too am a collector/racer. But I'm rather "casual" about both pastimes. So
my personal desire would be to have complete chassis available as close to
original Aurora as possible in both looks and performance. I'll even go a
step further. Although I understand using a different color plastic will
discourage unsavory characters from passing them off as geniune Aurora,
wouldn't it be just as easy to have "B-JET" (or some other mark) pressed
into the plastic chassis somewhere? 

Since I'm pretty casual about racing, I don't have hundreds (or even
dozens) of spare parts like pickup shoes, axles, tires, etc. laying around.
I understand the needs of racers. In the past, we'd buy NOS chassis very
cheaply and modify them to racing "specs". Sure, that leaves piles of extra
parts. But I'm equally sure there's a market for those "junk" parts on
ebay. The same thing will apply to B-jet parts.

I doubt the added expense of "un-needed" parts like pickups, pickup
springs, and axle/wheel assemblies will add substantially to the overall
production cost. Sure, those parts won't be free, but the real cost is in
the initial tooling. Once the manufacturer is geared up to build a chassis,
they become less and less expensive based on the amount of units made. A
second run of chassis will be FAR less expensive than the first.

Should Bob decide to have "partial" chassis manufactured, I honestly
believe he'll seriously reduce potential sales. But that's just my opinion.

Bottom line, I believe a better mousetrap is not what's needed (there's
plenty of those already in production). Just replicate what's now running
out at a price comparable to those sold in the past. Offer them individual
and/or in box lots. Just like the old ones. Was it really that long ago
that a NOS chassis could be bought for a few bucks each? Just a few years
ago I bought chassis for about a hundred bucks per box (and used, traded,
or sold every one of 'em!). Honestly, wasn't finding (or building from
mixed parts) a winning car part of the fun of racing? Thers's always gonna
be a few guys who are willing to spend ANY amount of money to win. That's
racing! In any scale! 

I for one say keep the cost low, the quality high, the chassis complete
(even guide pins and body screws!), and the market will be there. The
hard-core racers will create a supply of spare parts for collectors and
"po-boy" racers just like in the world of 1:1 cars!

Again, just one opinion among many..."

partspig


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## bearsox

resinmonger said:


> AfxToo, I agree with 90% of your thoughts. However, my personal observation is that Coach is 100% on target when he says any discussion with Dash Dan (AKA Lenny) quickly becomes a Dan Bash Fest.
> 
> Russ ,
> to a degree i agree with both you and Coach on Dan but attitude and behavior plays a huge role in the bashing. Pointing out that this is your business and livelyhood is one thing we can respect . But berating and belittling anyone with contrary views , thoughts and ideas is not usually the best way to endear yourself to your potential customers regardless of who you percieve started it ! Likely some of this comes from frustrations and that's understood on both sides of the isle. A better approach would likely be to let folks post wants and thoughts etc , ask an occasional clarity question . Answer those questions posed to you without taking offense or being offensive. Thank folks for participating and go back and sort thought it all to see what is useful and doable based on you as a businessman and your companies plans and needs. Just a guess here but i suspect you will accomplish more in the end and have some good will towards you too versus animosity now present by some.
> 
> Later , Dennis :wave:


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## resinmonger

Thank you for posting your wise comments, Dennis. Every coin has two sides. How did you get so smart - do you hang out with Yoda?

I supose I also may be guilty of over-sensitivity in this particular issue due to my own experiences. 

If I have gone over the top and stepped on anyones toes, I am sorry.


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## Dslot

Jetracer said:


> ...Why not start with something like the top plate and base chassis?


 Which brings up the question again: Where are the original '60s-'70s Aurora dies for the chassis and top plate?

If Tomy owns them (and knows where they are), could they be leased, or one of the sets purchased (surely there must have been several die sets, considering the rate of production at Aurora's sales peak)? Or could Tomy be contracted to make dedicated production runs of those parts? If some third-party owns them, couldn't a deal be struck with them.

It's possible the dies have been destroyed, or lost - sitting forgotten in the storeroom of some former injection-molding shop in Singapore. It's possible that Tomy would refuse to help put a "competing" slotcar on the market. But if not, then the tough part has been done - nobody has to reinvent the wheel, and dimensions will be perfect as long as they're molded in the right sort of plastic.

When I mentioned this before, I expected someone to say "Don't you think we thought of that, Dumb-butt? All the dies were sold for scrap in 1981." Since nobody has, I'm assuming the possibility is still on the table. And if it is, then it seems that would be the way to go, if we can.

-- D


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## Jetracer

The post I put on the Ho world board was #58790 on 4/11 and was as follows.

Im wondering if it would be more feasible to release individual parts of the chassis one at a time and build up to the final complete chassis. Obviously magnets axles brushes ect are the easy part. Maybe do a blank top plate or bare chassis and go from there? This would introduce a product that would have immediate demand and would help get some return on the initial investment thereby freeing up more funds to invest in the development of the arm.
I have been told that the arm is by far the toughest part to come up with.
Just a thought,

Brad


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## Grandcheapskate

Jetracer said:


> My question is this. Why is it so important to do a complete chassis to bring to market?


 If it were my dime, I think I would go at it a few pieces at a time. Think of the parts which are most in demand because they have worn out on the originals and aren't readily (or affordably) available. Is it gears? The bare chassis? The top plate?

Figure out what parts from the JL and AW chassis (both T-Jet and Magna Traction) are 100% interchangable with original Aurora and make a determination as to whether their quality is as good (or better) as it needs to be. Magnets and armatures may be the best example. If the JL/AW magnets and armatures are really good, no need to make them for a new chassis unless/until you get to the point of manufacturing the whole thing.

Maybe you could even modify the bare chassis to accept both an Aurora and JL/AW top plate.

I think I'd go first with the bare chassis, brass top gears and crown gear(s). Combined with JL/AW parts, this would probably be enough to create an Aurora clone.

Based on my experiance with the track, a $3 price tag for a complete chassis, based on limited production numbers, doesn't even seem like it would be in the ballpark.

Joe


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## bearsox

resinmonger said:


> Thank you for posting your wise comments, Dennis. Every coin has two sides. How did you get so smart - do you hang out with Yoda?
> 
> I suppose I also may be guilty of over-sensitivity in this particular issue due to my own experiences.
> 
> If I have gone over the top and stepped on anyones toes, I am sorry.


*Hey Russ ,
 i think we all have been down this type of road at times . I know i have for sure LOL . Actually i kinda get on the road and off it much like my racing style and hope i don't rub to much paint off the guy in the other lane during the process ! 
Dennis :freak:*


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## 1976Cordoba

coach61 said:


> . . . BTW Look at Toms profile.. he has not been back on as I suspected, just stirring the pot . . .


Actually he was on the day after he asked the question originally. I was browsing this thread and noticed he was too at the same time. I'm sure he has read our answers but has elected to remain below radar.


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## fordcowboy

Maybe someone on this boad has the molds??? fcb


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## slotcarman12078

If I had them, I'd be using them.... BIG TIME!!:thumbsup:


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## noddaz

*Oh no!*

Here come the stories about what happened to the old Aurora molds....
Of course the old stories are about the body molds...
No one ever wondered what happened to the chassis molds.... :lol:

My guess is that the molds were melted down and the metal reused to make new molds for something else... (McDonalds toys? :freak

Scott


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## partspig

*Molds, Molds, Molds*

Egad! A plastic injection mold from the 60's? I worked at what was Harrison Radiator for 35 years in and around injection mold machines, 50 to 200 tonners, big Cincinnati's they were. Back in 2000 we still had some molds from the 1970's laying around to make service parts. Every time we had to make a run of service parts, from one of those old 70's to 80's molds, we had to send the mold to the tool room to "fix it". Seems that when a mold sits, and these used to sit in a heated building to keep moisture at bay, HA HA , moisture would always get into the cavities and corrode the polished surfaces, and everything else, the slides, pins, gates, etc. So, if those old Aurora molds are still sitting around somewhere................. well, you can imagine what they would look like. EEEEEEEEEWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!


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## Dslot

partspig said:


> Egad! A plastic injection mold from the 60's? .... well, you can imagine what they would look like. EEEEEEEEEWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!


[Chuckle] Yes, injection-molding dies do deteriorate in storage, and need to be refurbished. But "re-pops" using original dies from the '50s and '60s are common in other areas of the toy and hobby business. 

The Marx dies, to this day, are somewhere in Mexico or the Orient, busily churning out repros of the 1950s plastic playset figures and accessories for the toy and collector markets. Glencoe, Aurora, Revell and other manufacturers have re-run many, many of the classic plastic kits that you and I grew up with. Some dies were so deteriorated that they shouldn't have been used (Glencoe's Willy Ley wheel space station) or couldn't be used and had to be remade (one of the Marx dinosaur groupings). Still, refurbishment is easier than cutting new dies, or Red Box would have remade the dies for ALL the dinosaur groupings.

The T-jet chassis dies are very simple in comparison - the only dimensionally critical parts are the pins that form the axle and shaft holes. Replacement of pins is a simple process. Perfect replication of the surface texture (the expensive part) is relatively unimportant.

-- D


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## partspig

Dslot said:


> The T-jet chassis dies are very simple in comparison - the only dimensionally critical parts are the pins that form the axle and shaft holes. Replacement of pins is a simple process. Perfect replication of the surface texture (the expensive part) is relatively unimportant.
> 
> -- D


I disagree most heartily! If t-jet dies are not dimensionally critical, you will end up with crap chassis, ala Model Motoring and Johnny Lightning, AND if you look at a t-et chassis really, really close, you will be able to see the mold marks from pins, slides and maybe a gate, not the makings of a simple die. And that mirror finish that you usually see on the inside of a mold cavity serves two purposes, it gives you a nice finish on the part surface and keeps the plastic from sticking to the mold. Then again on the other hand if you like your t-jet chassis to look like toad skin, well, leave the rust on. This is just my opinion, so don't get all worked up about it.

partspig


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## Dslot

> *Partspig* sez: _ I disagree most heartily! _


Hi, Partspig - no prob, but we _*do*_ both realize that we are debating the relative costs of refurbishing vs. remaking dies of whose actual condition we have no knowledge at all, right? If they even _exist,_ that is. Rather like asking: if my great-aunt were to buy me a classic car, would it need a valve-job?  However, in the spirit of argument for fun (a sport I somehow sense that you enjoy as much as I), I'll play.  


> If t-jet dies are not dimensionally critical, you will end up with crap chassis...


 But I never argued Tjet dies were not dimensionally critical. I said the critical parts that the refurb would affect, are mainly the pins that form the bearing holes (which are easily and cheaply replaced). Whether the chassis walls, gear plate, etc. mold out a few thousandths thicker or thinner because of the refurb, doesn't significantly affect the chassis' operation. Everything else is in the right place, because these are the original dies, remember. Now, the little hub-knob for the idler gear - okay, we _*do*_ want to get that the right diameter.



> ... pins, slides and maybe a gate, not the makings of a simple die.


Thanks mostly to the need for axle holes, the die set cannot be _mechanically_ simple, but the surfaces are geometrically simple - flat, smooth planes or simple curves that require far less handwork to put back into original shape than, say a Marx human or dinosaur figure with its compound curves, wrinkles, textures, and so forth. Yet those dies are constantly refurbed and rerun.



> And that mirror finish ... keeps the plastic from sticking to the mold.


 True, Partspig, but not a problem at this scale, I think. Most molded plastic pieces have texture, but pop out of the die just fine. That's what ejector pins are for. My old company in the '80s used to roughen small parts intentionally, to keep them from demolding prematurely (i.e., before the ejector cycle).


> ...if you like your t-jet chassis to look like toad skin, well, leave the rust on.


 Well, you wouldn't have to spend the money on special markings to distinguish them from the originals.:lol: But of course, I didn't advocate leaving the rust on, just not having to carry the surface refurb all the way to the 100% perfect reproduction stage.

To sum up, I'm still of the opinion that it's highly likely the dies (if they exist) are in good enough shape that refurbing will be much cheaper than creating new ones from scratch. To quote *Partspig*:


> Every time we had to make a run ... , we had to send the mold to the tool room to "fix it".


I respect your experience with molding dies, but I notice you did not say, "we usually had to recut them from scratch because the old ones were just too icky." Your company refurbished them, just as I've been suggesting. The refurb process is essentially filling imperfections and polishing - that's the final stage of making a whole new mold anyway. But you don't need to purchase the big block of vanadium steel, grind out and refine the basic cavities, cut the sprue channels, surface and key the meeting faces, drill the cooling tubes, machine the ejector mechanism, and so on. All of that's been done.


> This is just my opinion, so don't get all worked up about it.


Hey, no fear of that, buddy. Worked all up about an intellectual fencing match over a hypothetical point about an unlikely eventuality in an improbable project concerning little toy cars? In the words of the Great and Powerful Oz, "Why, Child, you cut me to the quick!" I'm just trying to keep you and me entertained so you'll give me a discount when I get round to ordering a pile of your Atlas track. By the way, what's the auction site your store is moving to, now that you're leaving eBay?

Well, it's been fun, but now, if anybody besides you and me is still reading, :beatdeadhorse: they can get back to the more immediately relevant aspects of the topic.

Cheers, D :wave:


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## pshoe64

Dslot said:


> Which brings up the question again: Where are the original '60s-'70s Aurora dies for the chassis and top plate?
> 
> If Tomy owns them (and knows where they are), could they be leased, or one of the sets purchased (surely there must have been several die sets, considering the rate of production at Aurora's sales peak)? Or could Tomy be contracted to make dedicated production runs of those parts? If some third-party owns them, couldn't a deal be struck with them.
> 
> 
> 
> If Tomy did own them wouldn't Steve Russell be all over these and getting them to market? Aurora went bankrupt 3 times before the final throws of closing the doors. In that time, tons of molds went to various manufacturers, like Monogram and Tomy. Some were sold as scrap and is the most likely end of the story for a lot of the used dated units. As too the overseas and foreign manufacturing sites...It would be a true challenge to locate the casts. As much as some of this stuff migrated around the world, if they did still exist, would you start in Singapore, Hong Kong, Mexico or Canada. I have a lot of the factory records on production runs, material purchases and shipping dates for Tyco and Aurora. The one thing I have never been able to turn up is maintenance records for equipment or tooling or export records on where tooling took place or shipped. That may be the best place to start looking if the original molds are going to be the starting point. Then again, they may be in someone's basement, with a grandkid asking "what are these things???"
> 
> -Paul


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## slotcarman12078

Here's a thought noone has mentioned but will make sense when you think about it. Every NOS chassis I've secured is supposedly from the final run before the Tjet was phased out. A gooey Hong Kong sticker denotes the country of manufacture. Knowing the tendency of asian companies to repop goods for a quick buck (the red T'bird and that funky green indy car come to mind) it would stand to reason if the tooling was out there, the market would be flooded with lime green and pink T-Jet chassis. 

There is a good possibility the tools were scrapped and are now part of a few hundred '85 toyota engine blocks..Or them old sets of cheapy tools we all picked up at the dollar store 20 years ago. I can't see them being used for anything else other than slot car chassis unless they were melted for scrap. While it would be a great cost saving advantage, the odds of finding the tooling are slim. The one saving grace to this subject is that CEO Bob has connections, and if anyone could locate them, he would be the likeliest to do so. Scrap steel is an asset when a company is being liquidated. And these tools won't exactly fit in one's pocket to be smuggled out past the guards.. 

When Aurora bit the dust, AFX and newer were hot, the T Jet not. With what could only look like a 1000 year supply of chassis sitting in warehouses, the odds are nobody would have thought twice of saving the tools. Just my feeble thoughts and observations....


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## resinmonger

Somewhere in Bob's comments, he mentioned that he had or had access to the original Aurora blue prints. That being the case, the new tooling could be accurately reproduced.

Regarding the original tools, I agree with the thought that there would be current product if the tooling existed. We've seen the stories of guys coming from Hong Kong or Singapore to US shows offering _rare_ Tyco product that in truth were new product made from the Tyco tooling that various suppliers still had. Where tooling exists, it gets used.

The Rotofast chassis is an attempt at a Magnatraction clone with T-Jet styling. The Fast chassis bears a very strong resemblance to the G-Plus. I really doubt that these chassis would have been developed if the company could have gotten their mitts on the Aurora tooling. Why would they spend the development costs if they could take a short cut?

The T-Jet tooling is similar to racing cars in the sixties and seventies. Teams would sell their cars at end of season for a few thousand dollars _if_ they could get a buyer. They needed a new car for the next season not last season's car. Now these obsolete vehicles can fetch a million dollars or more. Who foresaw that at the time? The T-Jet was yesterday's news, the nostalgia for it hadn't started and it would not have been perceived to be worth keeping.

Hutt out. :drunk::hat::freak::dude::tongue:


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