# TOS Enterprise "windows"



## modelmaker 2001 (Sep 6, 2007)

Here's a thought that I think is interesting. What if the primary purpose of the "windows" on the TOS Enterprise is not just to let people gaze out into space? After all, 3-D monitors could let you do the same thing more safely than a window in the hull.

What if the "windows" are actually mountings for passive sensor and active scanner pallets? This allows crewmen from inside the hull install and swap out various mission-specific scanners and sensors as needed.

This reasoning also follows Matt Jeffries' contention that space is a dangerous environment, that EVAs are an unnecessary risk, that repairs should be able to be carried out from inside the hull, and that scanners and sensors should integrated into the hull, too.

This is also a good reason to explain why some "windows" are lit, some are unlit, some are white, some are orange, and some are backed by screens. Gary Kerr suggests that one window in the secondary hull was green. And why would anyone want a window on the nacelle pylons looking into or out of a Jeffries Tube? Except for "The Mark of Gideon" and "The Conscience of the King" we never did see any "windows" actually used as windows until STTMP.


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## RSN (Jul 29, 2008)

But we did see them in the two episodes you mentioned, so I would say the intent was that they were windows.


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

They are windows and its pretty obvious that is what they are IMHO.


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## Steve H (Feb 8, 2009)

And I suspect the different colors are more a function of the history of the miniature. It's easy to forget that all the lighting was put in post-build. That means they had to work around existing internal structure.

I *suspect* the 'orange' window was more due to light being 'piped', or reflected, into a hollow spot and thus 'tainted' by bare wood. 

I have no idea about the 'screened' window, if it was an intended design look or if that's a mesh that was glued to the surrounding wood to beef it up some. I lean towards it was a repair or strengthening of some kind.

Either way, if the old girl had been designed to be lit from the first and that incorporated in the construction, I think we'd see some surprising changes.


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## harristotle (Aug 7, 2008)

Even if that's not how they were intended, that's a very interesting theory that makes a lot of sense.


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## Proper2 (Dec 8, 2010)

modelmaker 2001 said:


> What if the "windows" are actually mountings for passive sensor and active scanner pallets? This allows crewmen from inside the hull install and swap out various mission-specific scanners and sensors as needed.


 Guess I need to brush up on my sci-fi, Trek-tech jargon. They look like windows to lighted interiors to me.


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## wjplenge (Apr 14, 2011)

If for no other reason than human desire I'd have to say they were windows, even people with out claustrophobia would feel shut in on a 5 year mission of staring at walls except when planet side. Even the space capsules had port-holes/windows, though they were much more of a cramped space than the Enterprise.


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

If they were not intended to be lit windows they wouldn't have gone to the trouble to light them for the actual series either. Likewise, at least in the pilot, the top dome is clear and you can see in/out of it.


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## scotpens (Sep 6, 2003)

^^ My take on the "through-the-dome" composite shot at the beginning of "The Cage" is that it was meant to give viewers an idea of the size of the ship and the location of the bridge, and not to be taken as a literal transparent dome. I mean, why would the command center of a starship have a transparent ceiling? For stargazing while on bridge duty?

However, the redone CGI version of that shot in the remastered Blu-Ray edition _does _take it literally as a clear dome. But the turbolift doors still don't line up right!


Franz Joseph's blueprints show a lighting cove in the bridge ceiling. Above that is a sensor platform with the dome over it, presumably as a protective structure like a radome. There's another sensor platform above the saucer's bottom dome.


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## RSN (Jul 29, 2008)

I have said it before and I will say it again here. When Gene was approving the bridge design for the Enterprise-D he said one of the elements to tie it in with the original series bridge was the clear dome in the ceiling. It was seen as clear in "The Cage"/"The Menagerie". It is only fan speculation over 50 years that tries to reconcile all sorts of filming requirements for the set that say it was not clear. It is what it is for however we want to see it. For me, it was clear.


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## jheilman (Aug 30, 2001)

They are windows to me. Unlit ones for empty quarters or work areas unoccupied.


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## Proper2 (Dec 8, 2010)

scotpens said:


> ^^ My take on the "through-the-dome" composite shot at the beginning of "The Cage" is that it was meant to give viewers an idea of the size of the ship and the location of the bridge, and not to be taken as a literal transparent dome. I mean, why would the command center of a starship have a transparent ceiling? For stargazing while on bridge duty?
> 
> Franz Joseph's blueprints show a lighting cove in the bridge ceiling. Above that is a sensor platform with the dome over it, presumably as a protective structure like a radome. There's another sensor platform above the saucer's bottom dome.


I also always saw that transparency scene as not to be taken literally. But I could be wrong.

This is how I picture it, as the main light source for the bridge: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/8769444926/


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## irishtrek (Sep 17, 2005)

Interesting and reasonable theory.
Another reason for the different colored windows could also be due to the atomosphric conditions in those rooms because after all not every person on board is human.


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## robn1 (Nov 17, 2012)

I gotta go with windows as well. People will always prefer a direct view through a window, over a video display. The different colors make sense, since what you would see through a window is the color of the interior. Orange and green walls etc. The mesh may be a decorative screen, as was seen in many of the sets.

I also believe the clear bridge dome is not to be taken literally, it was just a clever "wipe" effect.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Go with the simplest explanation for a ship designed by normal humans in 1964. Windows.


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## Proper2 (Dec 8, 2010)

John P said:


> Go with the simplest explanation for a ship designed by normal humans in 1964. Windows.


 Yep, good point.


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## Sparky (Feb 21, 2004)

Even on the later Enterprise D you can see Picard from the outside of the ship in this clip:


http://www.google.com/imgres?q=read...&ndsp=25&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0,i:84&tx=123&ty=67

Looks like a window to me.


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## jheilman (Aug 30, 2001)

Voyager also had that awesome zoom in from the full ship to closeup of Janeway looking out the window of her quarters.


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## Sparky (Feb 21, 2004)

While windows make sense on starships, I always thought Probert's TMP shuttle design which omitted front windows was a good idea. 

Starship windows would be protected by the ship's massive deflector system and shields while under attack. Shuttlecraft/fighters with front windows have always looked like a disaster waiting to happen. 

For example the windowed cockpit of a BG Colonial Viper looks cool but the pilot also looks like a sitting duck to space debris.


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## irishtrek (Sep 17, 2005)

There are several exterior shots from TNG and Voyager clearly showing some one inside the ship and the same thing in ten forward clearly showing the Enterprise-D orbiting the planet of the week, and it does not stop there.
And yes some of the windows could be sensors, after all what I thought was a set of 4 windows directly in front of the captains yacht was the navigational deflector for the saucer section.


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## MOSUGOJI (Oct 26, 2010)

Sparky said:


> While windows make sense on starships, I always thought Probert's TMP shuttle design which omitted front windows was a good idea.
> 
> Starship windows would be protected by the ship's massive deflector system and shields while under attack. Shuttlecraft/fighters with front windows have always looked like a disaster waiting to happen.


Starship windows also have metal crashdoors/shutters that close over them like in the episode Mark of Gideon when Kirk and Odanna are looking out one of the viewports. Maybe some of the unlit windows on the model could be windows with the crashdoors closed.


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## RSN (Jul 29, 2008)

irishtrek said:


> There are several exterior shots from TNG and Voyager clearly showing some one inside the ship and the same thing in ten forward clearly showing the Enterprise-D orbiting the planet of the week, and it does not stop there.
> And yes some of the windows could be sensors, after all what I thought was a set of 4 windows directly in front of the captains yacht was the navigational deflector for the saucer section.


I am pretty sure they were supposed to be windows, until someone pointed out that when the saucer is separated, there was no deflector dish on it! Even at impulse, they would need to plow the road ahead of them, so windows became deflectors. Just my theory, otherwise, why wouldn't they make them blue, just so it was clear what they were?!!


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## kdaracal (Jan 24, 2009)

I'll chime in because I'm doing windows on the 350 right now. Windows are a human thing. Even the shuttle has real windows. I think humans will always want real windows. It's a human thing.


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## Chrisisall (May 12, 2011)

kdaracal said:


> I'll chime in because I'm doing windows on the 350 right now. Windows are a human thing. Even the shuttle has real windows. I think humans will always want real windows. It's a human thing.


Windows are like practical or optical FX; viewscreens are like CGI.


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## The_Engineer (Dec 8, 2012)

You would always need windows. What happens when the power goes out, with a viewscreen it would go blank. A window would always work. Reminds me of a scene in one of the Next Generation episodes, where the Enterprise goes out of control and Riker mentions that the only way they knew that the ship was no longer traveling at warp was because someone looked out a window.


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## Steve H (Feb 8, 2009)

And let's not forget probably the most important function of windows on the Enterprise. To give it a sense of scale.

The human mind is always measuring, comparing, sorting whatever the eyes see. It's automatic. It seems to be tied to 'fight or flight', where we have to judge if something can be confronted or needs to be run away from. 

nature gives us plenty of material to gauge distance and size/height. 

Space, on the other hand, has no instantly recognizable reference points. How big is that? How far away is that? You can't tell, it's like creating an infinite optical illusion. 

We all know, deep inside, how big a window usually is. Seeing a glowing rectangle leads us to assume it's a window, and see all those windows man, that Enterprise is a big ship, isn't it?

Logically, the Enterprise should be smooth with as few openings cutting thru the hull as possible, and the bridge should be buried in the very deepest part of the ship. This would be the most boring thing in the universe to watch. 

(this is why on old shows like Rocky Jones Space Ranger the otherwise cool looking ships look like toys. There's no obvious, instinctive visual reference to create the illusion of size. )


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## kdaracal (Jan 24, 2009)

Remember how Jim Lovell had to pilot Apollo 13 home with a window?


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## irishtrek (Sep 17, 2005)

RSN said:


> I am pretty sure they were supposed to be windows, until someone pointed out that when the saucer is separated, there was no deflector dish on it! Even at impulse, they would need to plow the road ahead of them, so windows became deflectors. Just my theory, otherwise, why wouldn't they make them blue, just so it was clear what they were?!!


Actually TNG tech manual said they were a deflector and I also saw the marked as a deflector in TNG Enterprise blueprints as well.
And I would not be surprised if the windows were made of transparent aluminum.


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## jheilman (Aug 30, 2001)

kdaracal said:


> Remember how Jim Lovell had to pilot Apollo 13 home with a window?


Keep the cross hairs on the night/day divider during the burn.


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## Proper2 (Dec 8, 2010)

jheilman said:


> Keep the cross hairs on the night/day divider during the burn.


One of my fave movies!


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## Paulbo (Sep 16, 2004)

Speaking of windows on Enterprises ... I never got why Kirk didn't position trainees at every window searching to Kahn rather than rely on the dodgy sensors. They must have the equivalent of binoculars for away teams that would have helped them out.


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## Steve H (Feb 8, 2009)

Paulbo said:


> Speaking of windows on Enterprises ... I never got why Kirk didn't position trainees at every window searching to Kahn rather than rely on the dodgy sensors. They must have the equivalent of binoculars for away teams that would have helped them out.


Because that would have made sense and might well have spoiled the scene where the Reliant sneaks up from behind for a shot. 

Also, I don't think, no, I know there wasn't a standing 'corridor flat' with exterior windows. I know the Rec Room scenery was dismantled and re-purposed post-TMP, I'm pretty sure the window space from the 'officer's lounge' was dismantled as well. 

I had the impression that TWOK was on a really tight set budget.


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## modelmaker 2001 (Sep 6, 2007)

I'm thinking that TOS Star Trek windows were indeed made to give a sense of scale on the set model and we all pretty much accepted that they were just ordinary windows. When anyone talks about windows on Star Trek, we all understand right away what they're talking about whether it's TOS windows, STTMP windows in the rec room or botanical gardens, STTNG tall narrow windows into the ready room or crew quarters, or windows on Voyager.

However, if I'm projecting into 200 years from now then these windows may serve other purposes than just as simple windows alone. They might be transparent areas of the hull that do much more than just creating a sense of scale or allow gazing out into space. Their window function may be very nice, but only secondary. I think that only a few observation windows are actually dedicated to the Mark 1 eyeball.

Some of the unlit black windows might not even be windows at all like on the nacelle pylons. Rather, I'm hypothesizing that some of the unlit black "windows" are actually vents for electro-plasma, warp intermix, coolant blow-off valves, gases, phasers on overload, excess tribbles, and gravity boots and other rubbish. They might even be access ports linked to airlocks for crew ingress and egress. They could be umbilical ports for use in space docks.

Just me re-imagining things...,


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## SteveR (Aug 7, 2005)

In that future, the ship designers may have realized that humans (at least) require a long view. In other words, a sealed ship with cameras allowing any view can't just beat a bunch of old-fashioned windows.

... included to give the miniature scale.


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## Proper2 (Dec 8, 2010)

modelmaker 2001 said:


> Some of the unlit black windows might not even be windows at all like on the nacelle pylons. Rather, I'm hypothesizing that some of the unlit black "windows" are actually vents for electro-plasma, warp intermix, coolant blow-off valves, gases, phasers on overload, excess tribbles, and gravity boots and other rubbish. They might even be access ports linked to airlocks for crew ingress and egress. They could be umbilical ports for use in space docks.


Or they could just be windows--since they're the same size and shape as the rest--but the lights are out. :tongue:

G'night, John-Boy...


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## scotpens (Sep 6, 2003)

At warp speed, would you even be able to see anything through conventional windows? Even at sublight speed, there probably wouldn't be much to see unless you were in low planetary orbit.



Steve H said:


> . . . (this is why on old shows like Rocky Jones Space Ranger the otherwise cool looking ships look like toys. There's no obvious, instinctive visual reference to create the illusion of size.)


Also the models were fairly crude and usually flown about on wires.


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## KUROK (Feb 2, 2004)

The model makers were using the lighted windows for a sense of the ship's scale.


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## gobbledegook (Nov 3, 2009)

> I think humans will always want real windows. It's a human thing.


Which is why even some washing maschines have windows.


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## TrekFX (Apr 15, 2004)

gobbledegook said:


> Which is why even some washing maschines have windows.


Those allow the socks to visualize their escape route, as well as give the laundry room a sense of scale.

Or perhaps a greater purpose, allowing all things fabric a chance to understand there may be something beyond the spin cycle.


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## whereisanykey (Sep 25, 2011)

Were they actually windows or a force field clear view as in a TNG movie.


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## RSN (Jul 29, 2008)

whereisanykey said:


> Were they actually windows or a force field clear view as in a TNG movie.


That was just about the stupidest thing I have ever seen in "Star Trek" film or series. "Lets put thousands of holes in the ship, sealed off by force fields so when there is a massive power failure there are thousands of holes exposed to deep space!" Sounds like a plan to me Starfleet, sign me up!!


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## Richard Baker (Aug 8, 2006)

Same guy designed the Bridge consoles with 50,000 volt interfaces...

IIRC the three round 'windows' on the front of the TOS saucer were some sort of X-Y-Z navigation sensors - anybody remember?


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## RSN (Jul 29, 2008)

Richard Baker said:


> Same guy designed the Bridge consoles with 50,000 volt interfaces...
> 
> IIRC the three round 'windows' on the front of the TOS saucer were some sort of X-Y-Z navigation sensors - anybody remember?


I would say that was more "After the fact." designation. A designer/model builder in 1965, putting a big bronze dish on the front of the ship would feel it would visually be enough to do a number of "Scientific Stuffs" and any clear backlit openings, either round or rectangular, would be just plain old windows! :thumbsup:


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## jheilman (Aug 30, 2001)

RSN said:


> That was just about the stupidest thing I have ever seen in "Star Trek" film or series. "Lets put thousands of holes in the ship, sealed off by force fields so when there is a massive power failure there are thousands of holes exposed to deep space!" Sounds like a plan to me Starfleet, sign me up!!


Ha, ha. Agreed!


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## Paulbo (Sep 16, 2004)

Richard Baker said:


> Same guy designed the Bridge consoles with 50,000 volt interfaces...


The concept of fuses and circuit breakers was lost at some point during the eugenics wars. :wave:


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## kdaracal (Jan 24, 2009)

Taboo post: JJprise had some very cool exterior shots looking into the bridge from a "window".

Additionally, Abrams loves his catastrophic hull breach scenes. He loves showing us folks going about their daily business, suddenly being exposed to the vacuum. I think "Into Darkness" had a scene with a hull breach going at warp. People being sucked out....

**now I'm going to run and hide under the kitchen table and watch the replies**


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## charonjr (Mar 27, 2000)

kdaracal,

agreed to all of the above re: JJprise. Have the kit and wishing it was bigger! Wondering if I should use it as a basis for a 4 foot scratch build. Of course, with a tiny bridge....


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## charonjr (Mar 27, 2000)

Regarding First Contact, that was a airlock/dock, not a window. Only after Picard opened the doors could be see the air force field in place, but there was a set of doors. Also, I thought it interesting that the holographic viewscreen used in the film was replaced with a standard viewscreen in later films. I know I thought it was neat tech, but wondered about having "only" a blank wall there when the holographic screen was off. Seemed oddly claustrophobic to me....


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## vulcangodoffire (Oct 7, 2009)

some very interesting ideas


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