# Something NOT RIGHT at my local Hobby shop.



## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

OK.....I wuz just hitting the ol' Hobby shop to pick up some goodies for my R2D2 and like always I check out the WHATS NEW end cap to see 'WHATS NEW' or re-released....anyway I see this kit that just didn't seem right...in fact I was kinda offended ....at first.

It's a kit by Pegasus Hobbies and its called 'Padres and Indians' and the first thing that struck me was ..."Thats horrible!, talk about a sad and very dark thing in the worlds history!" and then I couldn't help think about the funny side as well....the pic on the box just about says it all....SICK!! :freak: 










When I think about the history of Missionaries going around the world, robing people of thier Identity, life style and Culture and then think about all the scandles we all have heard about that GO WAY WAY WAY back.....well this model kit just cought me off guard! I'm 1/16th Charokee and have a few Native American friends and this kind of stuff just gets me sometimes.

Its kinda funny and it makes me sick at the same time.

Thats all....

Dances with glue signing off.


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## Brent Gair (Jun 26, 1999)

Get over it.


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

No problem.....but it's still going on. 

"They just keep on SPREADING ALL THAT LOVE!! and WISDOM" 

If Gene Roddenberry were still alive and here, he would AGREE.

I'll get over it when they teach in Schools about HOW the west was really won! 

They keep making big deals about the Nazi party in WWII but not much is ever said about the U.S. history, at times it was pretty dark and bad from the beginning.

I'll get over it when people stop making the same mistakes over and over and when the people of the planet GROW UP and move on! .....Thats when I'll get over it.


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## cobywan (Oct 27, 2001)

I just came back from a trip to Joseph Oregon. Talk about being on topic. Chief Joseph was given that name when he was baptized. He renounced Christianity later in life but will always be Joseph.

Get over it....


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

I work as a Lead Building Engineer at a Hotel and we had some Missionaries with thier children visiting family before they go back to Africa and few other places.....well most of the time they could not even show common courtesy to us or other guest and they had NO control over thier children ages 5 to 12, they were PIGS! and they go out preaching to others?  

I'll get over it when people give and show just a hair of respect for other people. 

I'll get over it......when.......when.......

OH MAN! I GOTTA DIE first *TO GET OVER IT!!!!?????* RATS!!!!


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## MitchPD3 (Dec 27, 2001)

Now Troy...tell us what you really think?
You're only 1/16th....I'm 1/4 Cherokee and I can think of many ways to rectify this model....."Indians reclaiming thier Land" with little arrows sticking in the padres, etc.,etc...


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

I could go on for ever brother.... but this is not the place.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Only 1/16? I think I have about that much Delaware blood - a great great great grandmother nobody talks about. But mostly I'm 1/4 Scottish. I think Groundskeeper Wille is hysterical.

Anyway, yeah, the kit's pretty rude. But consider it a historical vignette. Like if someone did a diorama of German soldiers herding people off to ... Hm, that'd be pretty rude too ... :freak:


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## Paraclete1 (Nov 27, 2000)

John P said:


> Only 1/16? I think I have about that much Delaware blood - a great great great grandmother nobody talks about. But mostly I'm 1/4 Scottish. I think Groundskeeper Wille is hysterical.
> 
> Anyway, yeah, the kit's pretty rude. But consider it a historical vignette. Like if someone did a diorama of German soldiers herding people off to ... Hm, that'd be pretty rude too ... :freak:


You mean like the one featured here in a Digital Dioramas back issue?

http://www.digitaldioramas.com/2002/issue4/dd_final.htm

The thing is that anyone can find offense in "anything" modellers put together. As long as a score was kept or there was a losing side, people will be offended. 

That's why I create for me... I don't intend to offend anyone, but at some point, it's going to happen. 

I hope I didn't offend anyone with my opinion... but I'm sure I did.  

Don


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

Man what a dio......Thats heavy.....but it is a part of History.

I was going to say that to me It the Padre and Indian model would be the same as a diorama of a bunch of German School kids being tought The Theory of the third Reich in a 1938 setting but its all History like it or not.


So......its all history.......like it or not. 

I wonder if that Dio was accepted by a museum?


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## roadrner (Jul 21, 1999)

Fluke,
Love your Cherokee name. Fell off my chair when I read that DWG. Oh great one! :thumbsup: rr


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

now thats more like it! 

I would much rather make some dude laugh!


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## TheNightSky (Feb 5, 2001)

I agree with fluke!!! I am 1/4 Cherokee and was very into my Native American culture Several years ago and even went as far to join A.I.M But then I realized just how militant A.I.M is(imho)But I wish they would teach history the way it really happened,Not this White Euro centric crap thats taught in school these days(did you know the chinese were in Virginia several years before columbus sailed and the vikings before that)Yeah that dio is kinda sick n twisted but its the truth.....So when are the 120mm Klansmen coming out?


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## Brent Gair (Jun 26, 1999)

TheNightSky said:


> I am 1/4 Cherokee and was very into my Native American culture


NEWSFLASH: You ain't an Indian.

Listening to various ethnic groups complaining about how they have been shafted throughout history is a great source of amusement.

Listening to white guys complaining on their behalf is much less amusing.


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

It's not just a matter of a certian 'race' being 'shafted' its the fact that what happened then is still going on today in different forms by the same type of people who just don't care about anyone or anything but them selves!

Today is even worse....people are not too picky about who they use, walk on, steal from, hurt or kill....while driving to work, getting that promotion, getting higher up in government or what ever. 

........and the sad thing is that its only a small few who seem to set the pace of life and start our wars! why we the sheep just keep on accepting things as they come.....they feed us garbage and we call it ice cream and ask for more. 

So when I talk about my Indian blood I'm using that for example....I think were all getting shafted ALL people on this planet.

I wish that color, sex and religion *did not matter one bit* when it comes to decent living and quality of life.

As long as MONEY is the key to pretty much everything this worlds problems will not go away. Roddenberry knew this ....its obvious when you watch STAR TREK.

Man that guy had visions of a BETTER way of life!

Dances with styrene.


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## xr4sam (Dec 9, 1999)

I know how you feel, Troy. As soon as people realize I'm half-Sicilian, the Mafioso jokes start. Maybe I oughta rub one o'dem jokers out, ya seez? Personally, I identify stronger with my mother's ancestry--half German, and half Scottish/English/Irish (depending on who you ask...)

FREEDOM!


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

I demand reparations from England for my people's suffering at Culloden!

And no more sheep jokes!


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

well to me, looking at the poses, the patronizing nature of that kit is pretty apparant. yes its historic, but the poses tell another story on their own. the noble white christians bestowing the true religion on the poor deprived ignorant savages, who are thrilled to have been enlightened. we americans tend to try to do the same thing, pushing our form of "democracy" onto other countries around the world, whether they want it or not. its an arrogance thats born out of self righteousness and the deep held beleif that we are the superior culture. 

btw, mr roddenberry wasnt innocent of this. not by a longshot. how much of the original star trek was the good noble starfleet spreading the good news of the earth (read american) based federation to those poor deprived misled aliens?

i find the thoughtlessness (and by that i mean not intentionally rude, just totally clueless) behind this kit sad and somewhat amusing. how naieve can you get?


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## XactoHazzard (May 20, 2003)

Unfortunately History happens, and we never learn from it... As a Christian(Catholic) I am embarrassed by the means that SOME not all christians will and have gone to spread the good word... The thing is that most of the civilizations have a belief in a higher power and live their lives accordingly but that wasn't good enough for those who mission. Like most dibacles in history most mean well but never know how to go about it. It is a Christians job to evangelize, but at the cost of who? I try to tell people about my religion only when they ask me or when they say something about it that they are mislead in their interpretation. Just because you are Christian doesn't make you void of being evangelized... I have a Born-again Baptist friend that used to be Catholic and he constantly trys to convert me... So yes Fluke it still goes on today. I am sorry for those who have bad experiences in religion b/c it's unfortunate but everyone finds happiness in different places. I myself couldn't imagine my life without my beliefs... It's what makes me able to deal with all the crap in the world that you are all speaking of.

As for the model, I'm not sure how I feel about it...
I have native American Blood but not enough to matter. Navajo and Blackfoot.

Travis


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

Good words spoken here. 


History is history......I just wish that man would finally learn from it and that our leaders cared more about the people they govern and had more respect for other people from other countries as well.

I think that we have been on this rock long enough to know right from wrong and with or without religion the true basics of truth, justice and kindness should be prevalent in all aspects of life.

I'm tired of all this child like behavior I see in Governments and in people in general.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Have you found Wakantanka?
Let me tell you about him, Kimosabe....


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## Steve244 (Jul 22, 2001)

Brent Gair said:


> NEWSFLASH: You ain't an Indian.
> 
> Listening to various ethnic groups complaining about how they have been shafted throughout history is a great source of amusement.
> 
> Listening to white guys complaining on their behalf is much less amusing.


You find genocide and slavery funny? How about the holocaust?

Or is it the children of people that were so horrendously savaged by our ango-saxon ancestors that you find amusing?

memory is long. life is short.

empathy is a quality I respect.


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## Pygar (Feb 26, 2000)

If you go back far enough, everyone has ancestors that got shafted. Everyone had ancestors who did shafting, too.

The ability to let history *be* history, is worthy of respect as well.

The monks may have been wrongheaded... but they went to the far end of nowhere and risked getting pincushioned with arrows... because they didn't want other people to shriek in agony for eternity.

Yep, I can really see hating their guts for that.


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

Steve244 said:


> You find genocide and slavery funny? How about the holocaust?
> 
> Or is it the children of people that were so horrendously savaged by our ango-saxon ancestors that you find amusing?
> 
> ...


*Thank you Steve! I could not have said it better myself!*


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## Brent Gair (Jun 26, 1999)

http://www.keelynet.com/unclass/cauc.htm


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

I demand reparations from the Indian Nations for driving my caucasian ancestors out of the Northwest!!



(a small cut of the Casino profits will do, thank you.)

(ka-ching)


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## beeblebrox (Jul 30, 2003)

My recent ancestry ,a partial list:

Cherokee
German
Scottish
French
English
Irish

I have no personal claims to any action good or bad that these countries and/or races have committed past or present.

I will however answer to the following:

American
Uh-mer-kun
Hey you!
Mutt-boy
99/100ths breed

Everyone needs to lighten up. Have a cookie, you'll feel better.


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

Brent! you sneaky dude! 

Those darn native American Indians! They killed my ansestors and took my land!

*WHAT??!!........*I'm just going with the flow here!


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

Here's a different link with some substance and objectivity. You've got to be willing to read though.

http://archaeology.miningco.com/blkennewick.htm


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## Steve244 (Jul 22, 2001)

Brent Gair said:


> http://www.keelynet.com/unclass/cauc.htm


Interesting site, Brent.

Perpetual motion machines (free energy)


> But first, I would like to describe to you a short list of "free energy"
> technologies that I am currently aware of, and that are proven beyond
> all reasonable doubt. The common feature connecting all of these
> discoveries, is that they use a small amount of one form of energy to
> ...




Antigravity Machines.


> Back in 1988 he discovered anti-gravitational effects of the chitin shell of certain insects. But the most impressive concomitant phenomenon discovered at the same time was that of complete or partial invisibility or of distorted perception of material objects entering the zone of compensated gravity. Based on this discovery, the author used bionic principles to design and build an anti-gravitational platform for dirigible flights at the speed of up to 25 km/min. Since 1991-92 he has used this device for fast transportation.




Healing Machines


> The machine I want to tell you about first came to my attention through several emails sent to KeelyNet asking if there was any information about a fellow in Caldwell, Ohio named Lee Crock who was using something called 'Aura Therapy' to get amazing results with sick or ailing people with varied conditions, some given up on as beyond hope.




Oh and your link supporting the theory that Native American Indians "invaded" north america displacing the caucasoids.

By the way, are you interested in some FL real estate?


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

I demand reparations from the aliens that displaced my ancestors from Africa to Scotland. Or something.

yeah.


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## beeblebrox (Jul 30, 2003)

Yeah! And what about Scarecrow's brain?!


WARNING: Lame-a$$ joke ahead.

I had a perpetual motion machine once, but I forgot to set the parking brake.


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## Bobman (Jan 21, 2001)

What the Hell every happened to being an American? It's great that some of you are half this or that and be proud of it. It seams that you never hear anyone saying that " I'm an American". It's always "I'm African-American, Spanish-American, Indian-American, liberal-American...." That's all well and good to not forget where you came from, but I think it's just as important to tell people that you are an Amercian first. I mean this IS where you live, right? Not counting people who DON'T live here of course. Never forget the past, but LIVE in the present.

Bob


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## Brent Gair (Jun 26, 1999)

Bobman said:


> What the Hell every happened to being an American?
> Bob


That would require us to adopt the belief that we were created equal.

That would be unacceptable to the limp-wristed, white liberal guilt industry.

There MUST be a certain number of oppressed minority groups in order for white liberals to have a sense of purpose. These people harbor the racist belief that whites are inherently superior and that they must show their good character by acting as mouth-pieces for those oppressed groups whom they beleive are incapable of speaking for themselves.

The difference between the ACLU and Ku Klux Klan is like the difference between communists and fascists. They CLAIM to be at opposite ends of the political spectrum but when you peel away the red banners and the swaztikas, they are the same. Likewise, the ACLU, the NAACP, the Klan, and the Aryan Nation all MUST believe that the white race is superior or they have no reason to exist.

The concept of one, equal people cannot be tolerated by either the far right or the far left. These strange political bedfellows have a common interest in keeping racial groups separated.


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## Steve244 (Jul 22, 2001)

Well at the risk of stoking another hotbed of political controversy...

no: people are not created equal. Look at your neighbor and the fallacy of this statement is obvious.

However it is the job of government to ensure equal opportunities exist regardless of race, creed, religion, bla bla bla. It's up to the individual to succeed or not.

To compare the aclu with the kkk is disturbing. The former's charter is to ensure discrimination doesn't hold back any person. The latter exists solely to oppress.


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

Can't we all just get along?

*Even better.....instead of just being American how about just being HUMAN!? and GOD BLESS THE WORLD?*


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Bobman said:


> What the Hell every happened to being an American? It's great that some of you are half this or that and be proud of it. It seams that you never hear anyone saying that " I'm an American". It's always "I'm African-American, Spanish-American, Indian-American, liberal-American...."


 Don't forget "Gay American," like the governor of my fair state. :lol:

Hey Brent, can we start referring to you as an "Extremely North American?"


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

I especially like it when a news caster has a brain fart and refers to someone living in Somalia or Jamaica, or even a black person in England, as an "African American" because he's been so conditioned to not say "black."

Then there's the fact that Charlize Theron and Patricia Heinz-Kerry are in FACT "African Americans" but can't be called that....

:freak:


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## Bobman (Jan 21, 2001)

John P said:


> Don't forget "Gay American," like the governor of my fair state. :lol:


Sad but true.


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## Bobman (Jan 21, 2001)

Steve244 said:


> To compare the aclu with the kkk is disturbing. The former's charter is to ensure discrimination doesn't hold back any person. The latter exists solely to oppress.


Yes it may be disturbing, but it doesn't make it any less true.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

I'm a conscientious, law-abiding gun owner, and the ACLU opresses the _crap _out of me.


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## Dave Hussey (Nov 20, 1998)

Personally, I don't care what race or gender someone is; nor do I care what race or gender anyone chooses to spend the rest of their life with. 

Huzz


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

Amen Dave! You rock! :thumbsup:


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

fluke said:


> Amen Dave! You rock! :thumbsup:


As an agnostic, I'm offended by your use of the word "Amen"  .

Seriously Fluke, if you would like to see an excellent movie that addresses the subject matter of your original post, and which addresses it in a way that gives equal respect to both cultures and to their respective religions while addressing the inherent arrogance of one culture believing that it is "right" to impose it's beliefs and ethics upon another - I _highly_ recommend the movie "Black Robe".


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## BatFanMan (Aug 20, 1999)

> It's not just a matter of a certian 'race' being 'shafted' its the fact that what happened then is still going on today in different forms by the same type of people who just don't care about anyone or anything but them selves!


 That's humanity! It'll be that way until the end of time or civilization. One race killing another under the guise of "cleansing;" Chechnya, Native Americans, Jews, Czechs, Christians under Nero, etc., etc., ad nauseum. It's not one particular race that's guilty of all of it. It's one particular MINDSET found ACROSS the RACES that continues the debacle.

No matter how much we learn, we always manage to repeat our mistakes. I just hope you aren't holding your breath... 

- Fred


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

Thanks Fred,

Yep... Like I said later in another post.....I guess I'm gonna have to croke first  .....Oh well.

Zorro that sounds like a good idea, thanks!


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## F91 (Mar 3, 2002)

Troy, I hear you buddy. Count me as a person who cares about my fellow man. If that makes people want to call me funny names, more power to you. See you at Galaxy Troy.


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## terryr (Feb 11, 2001)

That is a strange subject for a kit. How about Conquistadors and Aztecs?

There is no such race as white. No religion, culture, or genetic marker. The word white is used by racists of both sides to make a stereotype. The people who talk about the superiority of their group are usually an example of the opposite.

The Norse Rus tribe kicked the Slavs out of their country and made them slaves. The Angles and Saxons called the people of Britain 'the Welsh' for foreigners. The Europeans kicked the First Nations out of their land. The First Nations kicked the Norse out of Vinland. The Japanese kicked the original natives off Japan.
Real Estate baby. It's all about real estate.


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

Man I see all this awesome thoughts here and I'm thinking.....wow..like....Modelers should run things for now on! 

Now.....why is this thread one of the longest I have seen in this section in a LONG time!

far out......


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

fluke said:


> Man I see all this awesome thoughts here and I'm thinking.....wow..like....Modelers should run things for now on!
> 
> Now.....why is this thread one of the longest I have seen in this section in a LONG time!
> 
> far out......


 Have you checked in on the 9/11 thread in the Movies section? :freak:


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## F91 (Mar 3, 2002)

Yes, I've seen it, I get called funny names there too.


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

Anybody see the news item about the little plastic toy that was included in packages of candy sold largely in Hispanic and Mexican groceries in the U.S.? The toy is made in China and appears to depict an airplane flying into the World Trade Center. The product number stamped on the bottom is 9011.


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

Richard.....Just no more anal Star Trek builders coments ok? heheheheh! :thumbsup: 

John P. Yes I have ......I meant for the modelers forum page.

.....and that toy sounds very wrong!


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## F91 (Mar 3, 2002)

I Never said anal, I said "Annual". As in, a long time to build...yes, that's it!


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

Nice Try Rich! :freak:


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## BatFanMan (Aug 20, 1999)

> Modelers should run things for now on!


 Exactly! Instead of a chicken in every pot, there'd be a model on every workbench! :thumbsup:

- Fred


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

Zorro said:


> Anybody see the news item about the little plastic toy that was included in packages of candy sold largely in Hispanic and Mexican groceries in the U.S.? The toy is made in China and appears to depict an airplane flying into the World Trade Center. The product number stamped on the bottom is 9011.


yeah i saw that the photos of the toy leave no doubt as to its intent. i believe the import company's story that they just bought a lot of "free prize inside" toys sight unseen from an asian manufacturer, but it should remind us of a couple things. a huge part of world hates us and sees the 9/11 attack as a good thing, and that they are conditioning their children, thru toys like these, to view terrorist tactics as something thats acceptable.


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## F91 (Mar 3, 2002)

On 9/12, most of the world was on our side. The French newspaper Le Monde ran the headkine "Today, We are all Americans".Qaddafi (sp) expressed his sorrow But you are right, now Most of the world hates us.


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

Can you feel the love?

Here.....this might help to cheer you up?
http://us.f537.mail.yahoo.com/ym/us/ShowLetter?box=Inbox&MsgId=2109_17613901_9940_1523_18587 

*Thats when you know you are driving too fast!*


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## sbaxter at home (Feb 15, 2004)

fluke said:


> *Thats when you know you are driving too fast!*


Nah! That's when you're starting to make good time!

I'm adopted, so I know nothing of my blood heritage. Therefore, I have no choice but to claim any and all that might garner me some financial benefit! 

Hey! I've been disenfranchised of my heritage(s)!

Qapla'

SSB


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

hate to disagree with you f91, but the part of the world that our papers report on (our allies) were with us, but a huge proportion of the planet thought we had gotten what we deserved...

btw in case you guys hadnt seen it, heres the toy in question (this should chill your blood)


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## Y3a (Jan 18, 2001)

Lemme See, I am MOSTLY English/Scottish and some German. Waaay back in the 1820's A relative had an offspring that was 1/2 Black. I am just an AMERICAN. a part of the great mixing bowl. The immigrants who come to this country and hate our society, are IMHO, vermin. The can JUST GO BACK WHERE THEY CAME FROM! 

I also think it's stupid to call ones self a (insert former nationality here)-American if your parents WERE BORN HERE.


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## dreamer (Jan 1, 1970)

As far as I can tell, the whole "something-American" thing began with the black community, and it was was an effort that had merit. Once the polite term was "*****", then "black". The problem with both of those is that they emphasize skin color. "African-American" was an attempt to escape that and instead emphasize the shared cultural heritage of a people. Right idea, worthy effort.

It didn't entirely work on a number of levels. A lot of black people didn't care for it themselves, in that it was too specific a focus on African heritage that they felt ignored or insulted their specific families' histories from the islands, Australia, or other parts of the world. Some feel it's still just as divisive: "I'm _American. Period._"

Also, it started an avalanche of everyone else jumping on the heritage bandwagon, which is not a bad thing - one should know one's ancestry, culture, and heritage. Just not at the expense of the culture you were raised into (IMO). That, naturally, creates a backlash sentiment.


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

... exactly. The adoption of the term African American within the black community was an attempt at _inclusion_ after 200 years of being referred to in almost exclusively derogatory terms. My genteel southern grandfather liked to have it both ways by pronouncing the word ***** as "*****". I loved my grandfather, but that wasn't very nice - and he knew it.


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## Y3a (Jan 18, 2001)

My Great Grandfather used the same term. His dad Owned slaves, and he had illegally taught them to read write and do math. After the Civil War, My Great Great Grandfather and his former slaves continued to run a cotton farm and also grew corn and tomatos. He had never mistreated them and they stayed in a copy of the same house HE lived in. He never split up families, and when they were too old to work they were able to "watch the young un's" They shared the land and property, and existed together as a working group for 40 years.


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## XactoHazzard (May 20, 2003)

fluke said:


> Can you feel the love?
> 
> Here.....this might help to cheer you up?
> http://us.f537.mail.yahoo.com/ym/us/ShowLetter?box=Inbox&MsgId=2109_17613901_9940_1523_18587
> ...


The sad thing is that MANY people have Rosaries hanging on their mirrors... Most have never used them and some don't even know what they are for... If everyone prayed the Rosary as Mary told us, we would not suffer as much as we do as a race. I try to say two a day and I have never been closer to the Lord, it's very enlightening but you have to remember the more you pray, the more you are tempted away from God. That's how "the dark one" works, he already has the unfaithful. It's the "faithful" ones he wants.

Travis


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

XactoHazzard said:


> That's how "the dark one" works, he already has the unfaithful. It's the "faithful" ones he wants.
> 
> Travis


... which gets right back to the subject matter of the kit Fluke originally posted. Those Native Americans were "faithful" to their gods.


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## MonsterModelMan (Dec 20, 2000)

fluke said:


> Can you feel the love?
> 
> Here.....this might help to cheer you up?
> 
> ...


Fluke,

Where in the world did you see this? I laughed at first but then...wasn't sure what to think about it....I certainly understood what they meant by it but I think it might have been a bad example to use...!

I am surprised someone isn't trying to sell them...

MMM


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## terryr (Feb 11, 2001)

"Those Native Americans were "faithful" to their gods."
Too bad their gods were live and let live kind of people, unlike our gods, who want us to kick everybodys' ass, apparently.


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## Pygar (Feb 26, 2000)

Are you kidding? If they weren't gathering food or hunting, they were out trying to kill each other.


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## XactoHazzard (May 20, 2003)

Those early Missionaries were doing what God told them to do. "Go Out amungst(sp?) the sheep" "spread the good word" "preach the gospels" Unfortunately they were never briefed on the ethical ways to deal with people who had a total belief in God but not the way the missionaries knew God so they tried to force it instead of a gradual approach... Man is just a product of his environment and we act as what was acceptable at the time, unfortuanately.

T.

Travis


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

XactoHazzard said:


> Those early Missionaries were doing what God told them to do. "Go Out amounst the sheep" "spread the truth" Unfortunately they were never briefed on the ethical ways to deal with people who had a total belief in God but not the way the missionaries knew God so they tried to force it instead of a gradual approach... Man is just a product of his environment and we act as what was acceptable at the time, unfortuanately.
> 
> T.
> 
> Travis


Again, for a beautifully balanced look at this very story, I can't recommend the movie "Black Robe" highly enough.


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## iamweasel (Aug 14, 2000)

XactoHazzard said:


> Man is just a product of his environment and we act as what was acceptable at the time, unfortuanately.
> 
> T.
> 
> Travis


Man's belief in a/which God is also a product of his environment and what part of the world he/she grew up in as well. That might explain why there are so many God's and contrary to what some believe, there is no "RIGHT" God.


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

"There are some who believe that life here begain out there......" nah just kidding!

Some might say that John P. is a modeling GOD? :freak:


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

iamweasel said:


> Man's belief in a/which God is also a product of his environment and what part of the world he/she grew up in as well. That might explain why there are so many God's and contrary to what some believe, there is no "RIGHT" God.


In the movie "Black Robe", the French Jesuit Missionary demonstrates to a group of male Huron Indians the craft of writing. They are duly impressed as the ability to write thoughts on paper seems "supernatural" to them. The priest sees this as an opening to persuade them that his Christian God and his Christian heaven are "the true way". They are interested in what he has to say until he informs them upon questioning that there is no tobacco in heaven, and more importantly, that sex with women will not occur in heaven. The Hurons look at one another for a second, then burst out in derisive laughter at the thought of this "heaven" which is so clearly inferior to their own.


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## iamweasel (Aug 14, 2000)

Lets see if I can put this right. If there is a God, and I like to think there is, he is supposedly above human frailties/vanities and as such couldnt possibly care if someone or a certain group didnt believe in him. He would not pick and choose a people he would side with or not with. That should all be beneath him.
Folks will get into heaven by either being a good person or not getting in by being a bad person (dependant upon heaven existing), suffering for ones "God" proves ones belief to oneself and not much more then that.
And, God was created in mans image, not the other way around as many wish to think.


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

Zorro said:


> The Hurons look at one another for a second, then burst out in derisive laughter at the thought of this "heaven" which is so clearly inferior to their own.


Now that you gotta love! hehehehe!

I believe that there is a positive and negative side to our being - spiritual, wordly, in nature and throughout the universe and I sure HOPE that there is much more beyond this mortal coil than we can possibly understand....but we decide every day which side we will walk on or use. ( were not perfect )

but after being 'alive' for 40 years and knowing, watching and listening to many people as well as once being a 'Born again Christian' for 15 years or so myself and just looking at our Human History in general:

I am pretty sure that the creation of a GOD or Gods and the Devil is very HUMAN in nature..... cuz Man has always needed security and ANSWERS to his questions - Who am I?, Where did I come from?, Where am I going? and what happens after I die? ( the big one ) 

Just be fare and just and do the best you can to be nice....and try not to make the same mistakes twice.....everything in MODERATION! 

Basically the ten commandments are very good building blocks to a decent civilization...common sense thats all.

I do not believe that *wars *are religious based at all.....its always REST about unhealthy and angry individuals ( with a bad past ) Hitler to name one! ....then its about what its always been about...Land, Wealth and power. Very *HUMAN* indeed. 

but all through history *who* has always been there right besides the Kings and Queens?....*the CHURCHES!, *The religious leaders, the medicine men etc etc...just making sure all is right with God or who ever  and that its OK to kill each other ...( go figure ) 

Why the masses still tolerate all that crap?....who knows....The common persons have more power today than ever!....just lazy I guess.

Thats all.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

fluke said:


> "There are some who believe that life here begain out there......" nah just kidding!
> 
> Some might say that John P. is a modeling GOD? :freak:


 I've been called an Internet God, back when I had my own little web group on the Sci Fi Channel bboard. But, please, don't embarass me. Just send tribute.


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

fluke i agree with much of what you say except one crucial point. some of the worst wars in human history have been started because of, and inflamed and popularized by, religious beleifs, including our current struggle with fundamentalist islam. yes land and power were part of the mix as well, but when a powerful leader is a zealot, look out.

update on the 9/11 candy toy: they also found in the same brand of candy, toys which depict bin laden between the two towers a la king kong.


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

I would imagine that God gets real tired of being called down on both sides of every war - and football game.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

_Gott Mit Uns!!!_


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

That whole TOY thing is just NOT RIGHT!

I wonder.....If all the Western countries just got out of the middle East in general....would all this crap end?

If everything 'WE ARE' bugs the hell out of most Muslums....maybe we should just leave them alone and just maybe they might leave us alone....

Lets face it....our presence in the Middle East is all about OIL! ....don't kid yourselves!


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## Brent Gair (Jun 26, 1999)

fluke said:


> If everything 'WE ARE' bugs the hell out of most Muslums....maybe we should just leave them alone and just maybe they might leave us alone....


There's a brilliant plan.

Maybe if the Jews had just left Germany and not bugged Hitler so much, he might have left them alone.

Get serious.

The problem isn't us. Islam is a religion founded on priciples of violence and hatred. They hate us with a psychotic passion. Islam exists to conquer the world. Their history is based on the violent overthrow of existing societies and the extermination of infidels. They hate us because hate is their nature.

If we just left the middle east (perhaps the strangest foreign policy idea I've ever heard), they would come looking for us. And they would be more emboldened and more brutal than ever.

Talk about kidding yourself!

We have to fight these people and we have to fight them somewhere. The choice we have is exactly the same as we had against the Germans and the Japs. We can fight them on their land or we can fight them here. 

The left wingers have got to get those blinders off! We are dealing with the most dangerous and fantical hate group in history and the solution is not to be found in out attempts to "feel their pain".

Don't kid yourself. We aren't in the middle east because of oil. WE are fighting for exactly the same things that we fought for 60 years ago: our right to exist safely in our own land, free from the tyranny of fanatical hate mongers.


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## Steve244 (Jul 22, 2001)

Gee Brent, thanks for the uplifting speech.

Personally I'm more concerned about the fanatical hate mongers over here.


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

Brent Gair said:


> The problem isn't us. Islam is a religion founded on priciples of violence and hatred. They hate us with a psychotic passion. Islam exists to conquer the world. Their history is based on the violent overthrow of existing societies and the extermination of infidels. They hate us because hate is their nature.
> 
> If we just left the middle east (perhaps the strangest foreign policy idea I've ever heard), they would come looking for us. And they would be more emboldened and more brutal than ever.
> 
> ...


Brent - who, exactly, is "they"? _All_ Muslims? Or just fundamentalist Muslims? Because from your description of the religion of Islam, it sounds like you're talking about _all_ Muslims. About 25% of the world's population is Muslim. It's the fastest growing religion in the world. Can you be clearer about who "they" are? And who is kidding who by saying that we are not "in" the middle east because of oil? We didn't just arrive there after September 11th, 2001.


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## terryr (Feb 11, 2001)

Islam was around since about the 8th century. When europeans were sitting in the mud in the dark ages 'they' had a highly evolved society that saved Greek concepts like the number zero. Where would our computers be if not for zeros?

I don't think they really care what we do in our countries, but what we do in their countries. Probably, if not for the greed of oil, neither side would care about the other.

"free from the tyranny of fanatical hate mongers." I'm all for that.


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

Down with HATE! I say!

I'm sick of people who didn't have such a happy childhood, were driven slowly mad by thier parents and who only care about ratings, bank accounts and a cumfy life style: *WALK ON ...AND* *TAKE IT ALL OUT ON THE REST OF US!!!*

AHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Its time for the Common sence, middle class, every day joe REVOLUTION!!!


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

When El Cid invaded Moorish Spain to cast out the "Barbarian Muslim Hoards" occupying it in the 11th century, there were four HUNDRED public libraries in the country. France, at the time, had two, and they were restricted to church use.


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

terryr said:


> Islam was around since about the 8th century. When europeans were sitting in the mud in the dark ages 'they' had a highly evolved society that saved Greek concepts like the number zero. Where would our computers be if not for zeros?
> 
> I don't think they really care what we do in our countries, but what we do in their countries. Probably, if not for the greed of oil, neither side would care about the other.
> 
> "free from the tyranny of fanatical hate mongers." I'm all for that.


terry, they DO care what we do in our country, because it offends their sensibilities, and their dogma states that those that are not believers must either be converted or exterminated. 

the problem with the 2 offshoots of judeism, christianity and islam, is that both take the position that their religion is the only true one, and that everybody else is either misled or evil. (this attitude may be an offshoot of the jewish beleif that they are god's chosen people.) with any religion, there will be zealots, and as long as those concepts are contained within the holy texts of those religions, some believers are going to take it literally, and tyranny will follow. 

yes islam is the worlds fastest growing religion, and unforunatly it seems that its a fundamentalist breed of islam thats doing the growing, much of it driven by a hatred of the united states. (coincindentally, fundamentalist christanity has enjoyed a resurgence in this country, and it seems driven by what some people see as offenses agianst thier sensibilities, in the form of civil liberties that they disagree with). the united states has become the focal point for islamic hatred mostly because of our support of isreal, which consistantly acts in a very belligerant manner towards the rest of the world. if the u.s.a. would cut off the flow of money to isreal, it would dry up and blow away, and much (but by no means all) of this trouble would evaporate. 

the thing is... that we simply cannot have these religions without fanatics and zealots appearing, and those people whipping up the believers.... as long as the beleif exists, so will the trouble.


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## Dave Hussey (Nov 20, 1998)

I know people who have visited this part of the world at length. I have heard first-hand accounts from trusted, respected professional people of the public beheadings on Friday, thieves losing a hand for some small burglary, the deplorable treatment of women and the absolute revulsion expressed towards Westerners and our culture. Suffice it to say that many people, not all, but a significant number, over there are just not wired the same way as Westerners.

Regardless of whether historically these folks have had advanced cultural concepts, any culture that continues today to condone public beheadings on Friday in the town square, the treatment of 50% of the population as property (women) and the slaughter of thousands of innocent men, women and children on September 11 2001 simply because those people do not share the same religeous beliefs is brutally and totally barbaric and quite deserving of a firm, decisive and devestating response from the Western world.


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

Dave Hussey said:


> Regardless of whether historically these folks have had advanced cultural concepts, any culture that continues today to condone public beheadings on Friday in the town square, the treatment of 50% of the population as property (women) and the slaughter of thousands of innocent men, women and children on September 11 2001 simply because those people do not share the same religeous beliefs is brutally and totally barbaric and quite deserving of a firm, decisive and devestating response from the Western world.


So you prefer your execution of criminals done in private at 2 am with a hypodermic needle. Fine. That's a _cultural_ thing. You are painting 25% of the world's population with a _very_ broad brush. They're all middle eastern, they're all Muslim - therefore they are _all _responsible for 9/11. 25% of the world's population. Yeah, boy we really taught _the_ _Saudis_ a lesson by our invasion of Iraq.


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## Dave Hussey (Nov 20, 1998)

Zorro. I did not say that.

Re-read the post. Note the words "many", "a significant number".

I did not say I agreed with capital punishment in any form.

I did not say that all Muslims are responsible for 9/11.


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

Politics and Religion :freak:  ........ were screwed!


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

Dave Hussey said:


> Zorro. I did not say that.
> 
> Re-read the post. Note the words "many", "a significant number".
> 
> ...


Sorry if I misunderstood.


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## Dave Hussey (Nov 20, 1998)

No sweat, but I think you are hitting on a good point - it is easy to have an angry emotional response in view of everything that has happened in the last three years. 

I just wish cooler heads could prevail and the world could get along.

Huzz


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Zorro said:


> So you prefer your execution of criminals done in private at 2 am with a hypodermic needle. Fine. That's a _cultural_ thing.


 Personally, I prefer the execution of convicted felons, convicted of a capital crime by a jury and sentenced to death by a judge, to public headwhackings of kidnapped contractors by religious fanatics done to make a political point.


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

John P said:


> Personally, I prefer the execution of convicted felons, convicted of a capital crime by a jury and sentenced to death by a judge, to public headwhackings of kidnapped contractors by religious fanatics done to make a political point.


So do we all, John.


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## Steve244 (Jul 22, 2001)

then there's the preferred method in my neck of the woods...


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

Steve244 said:


> then there's the preferred method in my neck of the woods...


Then there's the preferred southern method of suicide. Get drunk and go to sleep on the railroad tracks.


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

SICK!!!! :freak: .......some people shpuld not drive at all ...let alone drink and drive!


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Often heard to be the last words of many a southern person:
"Hold my beer and watch _this_!"


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

John P said:


> Often heard to be the last words of many a southern person:
> "Hold my beer and watch _this_!"


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

an additional rebuttal to the idea that the fundamentalist muslims are only concerned with actions in their homelands: there are currently 2 french jounalists being held hostage in iraq because the french are about to enact a law that would ban the wearing of overt religious symbols (head scarves, crucifixes, etc.) in their public schools. these muslims are trying to bully the french (one of the strongest opponents to the invasion of iraq) because they do not like what the french are doing in france. like fundamentalists of any stripe, they dont only want control of their own lives but everyone's everywhere. 

the civilized world cannot afford to capitulate to these people. personally i feel that those countries which have knuckled under to terrorists in recent months are at fault. we have been far to soft on them up till now because we are afraid of being seen as bigots, but we must deal with them like the bullies they are, using the only language they understand: violence.


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

razorwyre1 said:


> an additional rebuttal to the idea that the fundamentalist muslims are only concerned with actions in their homelands: there are currently 2 french jounalists being held hostage in iraq because the french are about to enact a law that would ban the wearing of overt religious symbols (head scarves, crucifixes, etc.) in their public schools. these muslims are trying to bully the french (one of the strongest opponents to the invasion of iraq) because they do not like what the french are doing in france. like fundamentalists of any stripe, they dont only want control of their own lives but everyone's everywhere.
> 
> the civilized world cannot afford to capitulate to these people. personally i feel that those countries which have knuckled under to terrorists in recent months are at fault. we have been far to soft on them up till now because we are afraid of being seen as bigots, but we must deal with them like the bullies they are, using the only language they understand: violence.


I completely agree that there should be _no_ capitulation to terrorists or Jihadists. Unfortunately, in Iraq right now, you've got every backward yahoo and wannabe jihadist from half the countries in the middle east having one big party at the expense of American soldiers and members of and contractees to "the coalition". Why are they there? 18 months after we diposed the "secular" dictator Saddam Hussein, who _now _is the most powerful political figure in all of Iraq? Muqtada al-Sader, a fundamentalist Muslim Jihadist. We need to pick and choose our battles wisely. And our bullies.


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

i agree completly. bush opened up a hornets nest that we are now caught in.


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

fluke said:


> SICK!!!! :freak: .......some people *shpuld *not drive at all ...let alone drink and drive!


Also....Some people should not try to *SPELL *as well....Sorry, My brain stem or something is all screwed up from alll those years of model building :freak:


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

*UPDATE ON LOOSER DRUNK DRIVER with HEADLESS friend:*

She described her son as a "wonderful boy" and said Brohm's death was like losing a member of her own family.

"It's just a horrific accident, and we are all just in mourning right now," Ms. Hutcherson said. *( the drivers Mom )*

The two had gotten in trouble together before. Cobb County State Court records show that Hutcherson had a previous charge of drunk driving while underage and that Brohm was in the car with him and also was charged with underage drinking.

According to Georgia law, one does not need to be found drunk behind the wheel to be charged with DUI. Police can file changes based on circumstantial evidence, such as the case with Hutcherson in which he was found inside his home with his truck in the driveway and evidence, including a broken side mirror, indicated he had driven the vehicle while impaired.

*( GOOD LAW TOO!...dang GOOD LAW! )* :thumbsup: 

Smith, whom records show represented Hutcherson the first time he was in trouble, confirmed Tuesday he had been in touch with his client but could not go into any detail about the case.

He said Hutcherson had just been released from the jail's infirmary, where he was being treated for depression.

"To be honest with you right now he's devastated," he said. "He's lost his best friend. He's in jail. He's just emotional and suffering."

*AWH...poor wittle fella.....I feel so bad for him right now.....tisk tisk... *

*The Highway Patrol records show that for every 'first time' DWI offense citation given...that they have probably have driven while intoxicated 300 to 400 times before being caught! ( Thats over a period of a few years of course )*

*.......and I'm sure that this idiot has done the same thing MANY TIMES and had just gotten lucky ..till now.*

*The best thing that can come from this is that the ROCKET SCIENTIST does not breed AND!...that he goes around to schools and tells young people first hand about what he has done. ( his age alone will help the younger kids relate better )*

_*PEOPLE WHO DRINK AND DRIVE ARE TERRORIST! they are a real threat to scociety! *_

_*One time is too much! the second time?.....SHOOT THEM! before they kill some poor child or person who is INOCENT!*_

_*( heck....John P. would do it just for target practice! )*_

_*I'm sick of what we tolerate! *_


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

fluke said:


> _*PEOPLE WHO DRINK AND DRIVE ARE TERRORIST! *_


 Okay, Thaaaaat's a bit overboard :lol:_*




they are a real threat to scociety!

Click to expand...

 *_On THAT we agree. 


> _*One time is too much! the second time?.....SHOOT THEM! before they kill some poor child or person who is INOCENT!*_


 Not before I shoot the SUV drivers on their cell phones cruising at 50 in the passing lane.


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

*Overboard?.......not when the chances are ten times higher of someone being hit and killed by DRUNK DRIVER than a stupid idiot from another country with some half a_ _ed crazy political or religious ideas!*

*I would much rather die from a terrorist who believes in what and why they are doing it......... than from some jerk with no brains and a drinking habbit!*

HeyJohn!

If you do......get it on video ok?.....I would pay $ for that kind of entertainment!


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

fluke, words are important. they are frequently misused to muddle issues and mislead the public intentionally, and terrorism is one of those words getting slung around very carelessly these days. while those people that drive drunk are equally as vile, and even more of a menace, they arent terrorists. by lableing them as such, we dilute the seriousness of terrorism.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

They're idiots, perhaps criminals, but not terrorists. "Terrorist" carries with it the implicit notion that they are commiting an act explicitely to cause death and terror to the person or people they specifically hate, usually for a political agenda. A drunk driver is not OUT to cause harm, he does so thru ignorance and negligence, and never to make a statement.


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

Very true but drunk drivers *are sober before they choose to do what they do.*

Terrorist do not know who they will kill or how many ....nor do drunk drivers.

Anyone who harms or kills inocent people are terrorist in my book!


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

No, it has to be *ON PURPOSE* and for *POLITICAL ENDS*. Not just because one is a stupid hick retard with less judgement than three dead sheep.



> _*terrorist*_
> 
> terrorist (tèr´er-îst) noun
> One that engages in acts or an act of terrorism.
> ...





> *terrorism*
> 
> terrorism (tèr´e-rîz´em) noun
> The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property _*with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.*_
> ...


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

fluke said:


> Very true but drunk drivers *are sober before they choose to do what they do.*
> 
> Terrorist do not know who they will kill or how many ....nor do drunk drivers.
> 
> Anyone who harms or kills inocent people are terrorist in my book!


*I understand all that I was just saying : "in my book"

My point is: That Drunk drivers or any distracted driver is more of a REAL threat to my life than any stupid terrorist.*


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

fluke said:


> Very true but drunk drivers *are sober before they choose to do what they do.*
> 
> Terrorist do not know who they will kill or how many ....nor do drunk drivers.
> 
> Anyone who harms or kills inocent people are terrorist in my book!


not neccesarily. drunk drivers are sober before they drink. they choose to drink booze when sober. any choice after that, like whether or not to drive, is made while their minds are impaired. (im am not excusing or condoning their actions, just pointing out a major flaw in your argument.) 

terrorist DO know who they plan to kill, not idividually by name but by group: nationality, ethnicity, religion.. and have a pretty good idea of how many when they make their plans. and they are stone cold sober when they make the decision to do so. they do so coldly and purposfully to further their agenda, that is the crucial difference.

fluke, dont you see that by lableing other common criminals and killers as terrorists, you arent just heaping further condemnation on them, but you are also reducing the terrorist and his special brand of evil to the level of a mere thug or chuclehead.


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

Good Point!

I'm just saying that its all the same to me! 

and ( given the choice ) that I would much rather be killed by some idiot with some kind of political or religious belief than some jerk who had too much to drink, talking on the cell phone, eating a hamburger or what ever! 

Chances are ( and I hope so ) that the so called 'terrorist' truly believes in what they are doing and that they doing it for thier families and preservation culture.

We were once considered 'terroist' by the English way back when....remember that silly skermish called the war of independence?

But then again.....I would much rather die while playing spin the testors glue tube with two or more super models! ( and NOT the kind you don't get on line, on ebay or ay the HOBBY SHOP! that is )


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

"Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta said that *42,643* people died in traffic crashes in 2003" 

*Thats what I'm talking about!*

*I'm just saying that all that crap and WAR is SAD, STUPID, WRONG and we should not toloerate it!*

*'From this point on'.....If NO guns, rockets, jet fighters, missles or mines were manufatured ( AT ALL! by anyone )....it would eventually over time be fist, clubs and rocks....right? and in the long run only a handfull of weapons would still be around. *

*NOT every person within a religious group or in ONE country wants war or wishes death to others....only some....*

*So Why do we let so few play GOD with our lives and why we let them do so is beyond me.*


*Am I thinking like a child?....GOOD!.....maybe we all should once in a while.*

*Where is GORT when we need him?*


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

imagine all the people... living life in peace.... lennon said it decades ago....

fluke, i think youve been a bit too near that testors glue tube for a bit too long there, buddy. j/k

please understand, we know you equate the threat and hold both types of idiot in contempt... and dont disagree with the assessment. it is just as we said : words and lables matter.

now take a chill pill, put on some lennon, and relax......


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Personally, I'd rather be killed by Selma Blair in an accidental sexual aesphixiation. 

But that's just me.



Oh, and - _*I demand reparations from Islamic terrorists who enslaved my drunk-driving ancestors!!!!

*_No, wait.....


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

:lol: :lol: 

John.....get that on tape too ok? :freak: 

Its the *Moody Blues* for me man....though I love the lads from Liverpool almost as much! That and some YES and E.L.P. and I'm cool....OH and some *Smirnoff twisted green apple!*....If you havn't had that stuff yet you gotta try it! 

Now lets get back to some MODEL BUILDING! 

Man that 1977 MPC C3PO kit SUCKS!!!! .....How can they have done such a good job on R2 and just said screw when it came to 3PO??


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## grantf (Feb 2, 2004)

look back to page 1 of this thread and the first picture posted: To me it is bigotry pure and simple, I cannot stand it when some one thinks that they are good or better than others based upon there beliefs (I will not use the word "faith"), rather than what they do or achieve in life, that's all I need say.


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

*Grant! You ROCK!* :thumbsup:


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## Swamp Skunk (Jul 15, 2000)

Ah yes .... Nothing like checking the Modeling Forum for model building tips and then I find a thread like this. Well, guess it's time for the Skunk to say something.  

********

To Brent Gair and Pygar .... THUMBS UP TO BOTH OF YOU!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: I couldn't agree with you more. 

To everyone else .... Please, spare me. I guess that none of you sensitive model builders have a Tiger tank, a T-55 tank, a Me262 [ Fluke .... You have a Me109. ], and/or a Mig 23 in your collection. And certainly none of you figure model builders have a monster oozing with gore or a bimbo warrior bearing oversized breast .... With or without chain-mail panties. 

The Third Reich slaughtered millions of innocent people .... And they, especially a guy named Hitler, put their faith in these weapon systems so that they could continue the slaughter. Hmmmm .... How could anybody build a model with a cross AND/OR swastika on it? Never mind the crew or pilot .... IT WAS A WEAPON CHRISTENED BY DIRTY, STINKING NAZIS!!!! How could anybody build a Soviet T-55 tank or a Mig fighter .... These weapons were used to enslave millions of innocent men, women, and children behind a Soviet built Iron Curtain. With any of these or similar models in your collection .... How could you be comfortable with a Jewish or Polish person viewing your collection. ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE ONE OF THOSE WHO THINKS THAT THE MONK AND INDIAN DIO IS SO DISTASTEFULL. Hmmmm ..... I'm sure that many of the critics who took offense with this dio would have no problem with a dio showing Indians ravaging a white farmer's wife on the Great Plains. Oh .... Sorry .... Hope I didn't offend anyone. 

By the way, I have plenty of German [ Nazi ] and Russian [ Soviet ] tanks in my collection. I have a few gory critters in my collection .... But no babes, I prefer the real thing when it comes to that. So .... Is the Skunk a hypocrite? No, cause I have no problems with with a dio showing some monks PEACEFULLY sharing their religion with some Indians. Again, those who are offended by it .... TOSS OUT YOUR NAZI PLANES BEFORE YOU START PREACHING TO THE REST OF US!!!! Hmmmm .... Amazing how so many people can be offended by a simple dio depicting a non-violent scene of monks and Indians gathering and praying together. Yall need to quit hating God so much .... And get over the last Presidential election. God isn't going anywhere .... God will reign for eternity. George W. Bush ..... Well, by the looks of it .... He will be in the White House for another four years. 

Skunk


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

Far out Skunk!

Good thoughts for sure....but Not such a fare comparison though:

*The difference here is SIMPLE:*

FEAR & Prejudice *....VS....* all out INTIMIDATION AND TOTAL CONTROL BY A WAR DRIVEN POLITICAL PARTY.

The Nazis gained power at first by preaching false hopes and big talk and big dreams ( and some muscle ) but then later by pure fear, intimadation and brute force...If you did not like it or dared say anything at all against it....you were just one of the many numbers slaughtered!

In our early history it was political proaganda and the CHURCH that carved the early American cictizens view towards the Native American! ....sure they may have eventually seen and felt the fear first hand of what the native American could do....and why not! they were upset and defending thier families and country! ( *who wouldn't!?* )

So ...the early American person had a choice!......... the many people ( including MOST German people! ) who were murdered and threatened by the Nazi party did not! and lived in fear and in silence.

It was simple....We needed the space, They were in the way.....We were children of GOD, THEY WERE NOT!....oh yeah....those same decent, God fearing folks also had no problem sleeping at night during the inslavement of the African people as well. 

Thats the part of our history that I am NOT proud of....I believe the decendants of those wonderful loosers are still with us today.....They run big corperations, talk on cell phones while driving and *JUST DON"T CARE ABOUT ANYONE BUT THEMSELVES!!!*

There I said it!

*Thats the major problem I have with ANY organized 'GROUP' religion.....If someone is not of the 'same' faith.....its ok to kill them or what ever....cuz after all.....they are not Gods children and they are savages!*

Sure there are many GOOD religious people ....but in a group....WATCH OUT!

I hope this makes some sence.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Hmmmm.... Indians savaging a settler's wife...
[runs to check Historex figure catalog]


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

Hey John were trying to be serious here!



( really?...is that for real?....hmmmm )


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## dreamer (Jan 1, 1970)

Fluke, I'm right there with ya. Skunk, ya gotta watch the hyperbole - you blow your credibility when you fall back on telling people to "stop hating God". Fred DeRuvo hates God??? Troy hates God? Zorro? These guys are deeply spiritual people and good Christians. Has nothing to do with "hating God". Being frustrated or angered with the actions of those who _claim to speak for God_, now, that's a whole new ball game. I've seen you put hype aside and draft smarter arguments than that. Apply it here, you're close to a valid point.


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## Steve244 (Jul 22, 2001)

Well, Skunky does have a good point. We build models of things that aren't socially acceptable: where do you draw the line?

I don't care for the indian diorama; it doesn't appeal to my sense of esthetics. If someone else likes it for whatever reason, fine. If not it won't sell and that's the end of it.


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## dreamer (Jan 1, 1970)

Steve244 said:


> Well, Skunky does have a good point. We build models of things that aren't socially acceptable: where do you draw the line?


Exactly. And where do we let ourselves begin to support censorship for the sake of personal comfort? I'm not disagreeing with ol' Stinky, but those last few sentences were over the top!


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

Thanks Jeff or should I say Jauque the Monkey?  

Its all about what people 'can do' in the name of something and whats in thier hearts or what maybe what is NOT in thier hearts?

I hear ya Dan!.....but ....its just not a good comparison.....It is all history anyways...and I wish that we could just learn from the past and GO FOWARD!


----------



## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

Good piont Steve!

I may not like it but another person may see it as a group of good souls helping people.

But thats what *real* FREEDOM is all about ........Freedom to do what you feal is right as long as you do not cause harm to other people! 

I like it when folks can discuss things and still be cival....in a way thats how you learn and make your own decisions....by listioning and giving things time.


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

well, i think the skunk showed his true colors in the last couple of sentences. and gee, we all know how the religious right has never ever tried to censor anything they disliked, unlike those p.c. fanatics..........

therein lies the difference. i do find that diorama kit distasteful, but i will defend the sculptor/kit manufacturers right to produce it to my dying day. between the rabid right and the looney left, it gets tougher for those of us who do believe in such liberties as each day goes by. 

theres another difference, one which skunk so ably demonstrates. notice how he equates critisizing the actions of the christian church with being anti-god. many christians believe their actions, no matter how offensive, should get a blanket pass because they believe they are acting "on god's side" and if you knock them for those actions you must either be misled or *gasp!* evil. (its the same sort of thinking that, when taken to the extreme, leads to little things like crusades and jihads.)

liberties come with a pricetag. if you do something, like this kit, that someone finds distasteful, you'd better be prepared to take the heat for it, because the sacred freedom that permits you to do it is the same freedom that permits others to critisize you for doing so. and if you become a pariah because a bunch of people dont like the thinking behind it, that's the breaks. a wise person might find it a clue that it's time to honestly re-assess ones own thinking.


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## dreamer (Jan 1, 1970)

razorwyre1 said:


> liberties come with a pricetag. if you do something, like this kit, that someone finds distasteful, you'd better be prepared to take the heat for it, because the sacred freedom that permits you to do it is the same freedom that permits others to critisize you for doing so. and if you become a pariah because a bunch of people dont like the thinking behind it, that's the breaks. a wise person might find it a clue that it's time to honestly re-assess ones own thinking.


Well said. Exactly my view. We cannot claim freedom to express ourselves and then deny that same freedom to those who would respond.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

I'm gonna toss in the idea, here, that the person who created the diorama in question did it in the spirit of showing a historical event, and may in fact despise that event himself. "Look, here's an example of people forcing their beliefs on others." It's a valid modeling subject.


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

YUCK! ALL THIS COMMON SENCE AND MATURE DISCUSSION IS MAKING ME SICK!

LETS GET TO SOME NAME CALLING AND MODEL BUILDING!


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

*VERILY, I SAY UNTO YA'LL* 

RENT "BLACK ROBE"!!!!


----------



## dreamer (Jan 1, 1970)

Already done, years ago. Good call.


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## Swamp Skunk (Jul 15, 2000)

Dreamer .... You tell us that you and others are frustrated with those who justly or unjustly speak for God. Then, you proceed to name members of this board who are " deeply spiritual and good Christians ". Dreamer, only God knows who among us are really Christians and good ones at that. How do you know who is real and not real when it comes to Christianity .... Are you not speaking for God Dreamer?

Fluke .... You mention REAL FREEDOM. I agree, it's great unitl someone really gets hurt. But .... Uh .... What hurt you so much about that diorama Troy? How could that diorama hurt anybody? I guess if you are like Razorwyre1 and other far left, thin skinned PC folk here .... That could be offensive. People who desperately fight their wars of good and evil in pages of history books, and not the current and real world. 

Razorwyre1 .... The Skunk has never tried to hide his colors here. I HAVE BEEN, AND WILL ALWAYS BE .... A PROUD MEMBER OF THE VAST RIGHT WING CONSPIRACY!! GOD BLESS AMERICA AND PLEASE GET THE HECK OUT OF HERE IF YOU DO NOT LIKE IT!!  

Now Razorwyre1 .... Why don't you be honest and tell us how far left you really are. Notice how Razorwyre1 still does not get the point with my first post. It was not people attacking the church .... It was people who take a well done dio of a peaceful scene between monks and Indians, and then hype the political correctness concerning an issue which the dio does not depict, and at the same time take pot shots at organized religion and anyone who supports it. Right wing zealots like myself believe in hearing all points of views. Hmmmm .... Maybe you guys are further right than me. You preach about freedom. respect, getting along .... And then get in a silly nine page thread about finding offense in someone's work .... And then take offense when a few members [ A member the Skunk will always be.  ] who question your bleeding heart logic. You know .... That's the standard practice every Fascists uses on their climb to power and/or respect. I'm really glad none of you have an army to do your bidding .... I believe that would be a knock on my door pretty soon .... Or a tank through my living room.

Hmmmm .... Before I go, let's take a look at that highly offensive diorama. Could someone please answer the following questions [ No one has yet in nine pages of posts. ]:

01. Where is the FEAR in that diorama? Neither the monks or Indians seem to be afraid of each other .... Where is it?
02. Where is the PREJUDICE in that diorama? Would it help if the monks were black and the Indians white .... Or what if the monks were Asians .... Would that help? Gee .... I've looked at it at least ten times .... And still I see no Confederate flag. Fluke and Dreamer, buds .... Where is it?
03. Where is the INTIMIDATION in that diorama? Someone please tell me which one of those monks is holding a sword or pike at an Indian's throat? Also point out which Indian is in chains please. Hmmmm .... Does anyone see a monk getting his throat cut by an Indian?

To those people who are still haunted by bad things that happened in history .... PLEASE FIND A MODEL OR DIORAMA THAT CLEARLY DEMONSTRATES YOUR GRIPE BEFORE YOU AGAIN START PREACHING TO THE REST OF US MERE MORTALS!!

Oh, by the way. TO WHOEVER MADE THAT DIORAMA .... Very nice job on the figures! :thumbsup: It's nice to see a diorama that shows man at peace with each other, instead of at war with each other. Night folks ....

Skunk


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## dreamer (Jan 1, 1970)

Swamp Skunk said:


> Dreamer .... You tell us that you and others are frustrated with those who justly or unjustly speak for God. Then, you proceed to name members of this board who are " deeply spiritual and good Christians ". Dreamer, only God knows who among us are really Christians and good ones at that. How do you know who is real and not real when it comes to Christianity .... Are you not speaking for God Dreamer?


:lol: Good lord, Stinky, yer lookin' for fights where there aren't any!

A. Debate 101 tactic: attempt to deflect a question by attempting to put the other guy on the defensive. Not gonna fall for that one. Did you or did you not accuse these guys - not any few specifically - of "hating God"? Yep, ya did. Some of these people you said that about, I've seen them avow their love of God throughout their stays at these BBs. They've participated in threads about religion, and affirmes their beliefs. They've also behaved throughout in a manner that I, an uninitiated atheist, have come to believe from my Christian friends to be a manner that their religion proscribes. I'm not the one to assume they are lying. How about that - even an atheist can behave in a Christian way!

These guys are talking about events in history that were the result of actions taken by human beings - so how do you get from that to "hating God"?

Oh, right, organized religion. You do realize that organized religion is led by people? people who, even as they act in good faith, are inherently not God? People prone to the failings of humankind? Church leadership can be influenced by human failing. Like it or not, not everyone trusts that institution for that very reason - and it's got nothing to do with a hatred of religious belief in itself, let alone God.

And if you hadn't been so busy trying to spin my post, you'd have noticed my point was that you had a good point of your own - then blew it with the silly accusation. 



B. Ya mighta noticed, I didn't take any position _on this diorama itself_ one way or the other. These guys are responding to what they read into it. The makers have a right to produce whatever they want, everyone else has a right to think of it what they will and voice an opinion. What's the problem?


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

The Dio or kit does not bother so much as the ideas behind it....

The Missionarys throughout history and even today did and do what they do with the best intentions I'm sure. 

There is no fear, intimidation or force in that model / diorama..... just tricky words that promise peace and wisdome while at the same time "You don't mind while we take your land and bring the Buffalo to near extinction"...... and ......in the future girdle the globe with concrete highways and through our trash out of our windows as we pass by.

I have five senses working overtime...and its not fun at all  

See, hear, smell, touch and taste.

Mostly SEE and HEAR.


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## dreamer (Jan 1, 1970)

Late night, Troy? That's pretty melancholy stuff.


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

Hi Jeff....yep one of those nights....

Dreamer is mostly talking about the lryics I posted from an XTC song 
called 'Dear God'.....I decided to remove it because most of the song did not really apply to what I was trying to convey.

I think that we all have put down some good thoughts here. Skunk has alot of pride and that is good. 

We are all Americans and we are all proud.

How we got here is not as important as where are we going.

Moderation is what this world needs now more than ever MODERATION.....not too far this way and not too far that way and all we can do is to try to learn from our mistakes and go foward.


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

man i just spent a half hour typing a response and somehow deleted it with one mis-stroke on the keyboard ARRGH! ok here we go again... i'll try to remember everything i wrote...

fluke... looks like you got your wish about the name calling.. and dreamer, thanks for your reply.. saves me some time here.

ok skunk, as to my political leanings i am quite centerist. some of my ideas are quite leftish, yes, but an equal, if not greater, number are just as far to the right. me? p.c.? perish the thought! im an equal opportunity offender! alas in this country the term "conservative" has been hijacked by certain idologies, when they are in actuality, right wing liberals. and yes i did address the point of your first post. while you may believe your point was in support of the freedom of the sculptor/kit manufacturer to produce that kit, it was actually to chastise those of us who critisized it. 

fear, prejudice, intimidation.... lemme see now: the crusades, the inquisition, the scopes monkey trials. while those events arent depicted by that diorama, the thinking that led to them most certainly is. while you tell the other members that they should throw out their nazi fighter kits before knocking the diorama, the two are not paralells. the diorama linked to earlier in this thread depicting the herding of the jews into the trains leading to the concentration camps is much closer (one crucial difference between them is in that case the modeler knew he was depicting an atrocity.) i own an old aurora hanging cage kit. so what? its just a thing, an inanimate object. its the depiction of what was done with it, or those nazi planes, and why it was done, that is the difference. 

i certainly did not accuse you of masking your right wing philosophy. you were masking exactly what you accuse me of: facism. did you ever hear any of us say that the kit should be pulled from the market? no. of course not. however, with your "love it or leave it, never question or show dissent, shut up and sit down, march in lockstep or get trampled" attitude, by equating critisizing something with hating it, it is you, sir, not i, that violate the ideals of open discourse, debate, and tolerance for the ideas for others, even when we dislike them, that this great nation was founded upon. it is you we should fear having a private army, not the other way around. (maybe ups has some used brown shirts you could get cheap). 

i have a question for you, skunk. what did you think of that piece in an art gallery several years ago that was a crucifix in a mason jar full of urine? (i dont recall whether they displayed the object itself or just a photo of it... im too lazy at the moment to google up the particulars.) im not interested in your imaginings of what i think of it, but your thoughts about the piece, its creator, and what, if anything, you believe should be done about them. i look forward to your answer. 

btw, a "zealot" who considers (and hearing is not the same as considering) "all points of view" is an oxymoron. i have no doubt you hear the words. the ideas they carry, however, bounce off you like an antibiotic does on a germ that has developed a resistance to it. 

now, while skunk's blood pressure rises to the point that his head explodes a la scanners, the rest of us will notice how he accuses me of doing exactly what he did... avoid the actual point of my reply... and then clouds the issue with a lot of self righteous posturing. (a typical tactic.) it seems that in his world all is black or white, with no shades of gray. unilateral and unconditional. it is a point of view that all true americans should fear.


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## Swamp Skunk (Jul 15, 2000)

Razorwyre1 .... I believe that piece of art [ If you want to call it that. ] was titled " Piss On Christ ". Could be mistaken .... Something you guys will never do, classic left winger syndrome. I did not like the piece, along with many conservative and liberal critics .... But the artist [ Again, if you want to call him that. ] has the right to show his work.

Oh boys .... :wave: .... When are you going to tell us what is so offensive about that diorama? Or can you? If yall do [ Which I seriously doubt you can at this point. ], please be specific. No sermons from Fluke on world peace, sermons from Dreamer about what it means to be a good Christian, or sermons from Razoryre1 about the nasty right wing and high blood pressure.

This ought to be good .... Better go pour myself a drink.

Skunk


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## terryr (Feb 11, 2001)

Fluke said "We are all Americans and we are all proud."

Not everyone is American....or proud. Anybody can use this dang internet thing.


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

well skunk, youre very close to correct as to the title. its "piss christ" (ahhh google is a wonderful thing). you'll notice i didnt call it art (we could have a rousing debate about that in and of itself.) it is unquestionably a statement however, and i too defend it's creator's right to create and display it. (y'see we can agree on something!)

you truly cannot see what's offensive here or havent gleaned it form the previous posts? on one hand thats amazing, on another its not all that surprizing, considering the perspective that you see the world from. well, specifically, its the patronizing nature of the piece. the "enlightened civilized monks" indoctrinating the "noble savages" into the ways of the "true religion". 

now that is of course a matter of interpretation. now some here can, and have, interpreted it as simply kindly men of the cloth spreading the good word to the new world. however, that interpretation ignores the devestating effects that the influences of european civilization, including christianity, had on the native american peoples and their culture, and the similar ills spread by the church when it has tried, as it has so often, to push its way into the lives and affairs of others. others see it as merely a chunk of history, and ignore any sort of interpration of its meaning altogether.

the artists point of view on it is pretty plain. the condescending nature of it is apparant in the poses of the group as a whole. all of the natives poses are passive/submissive, while the monks are posed in a dominant/superior manner. the artist takes it as read that the white monks are the superior race/culture/religion, and that nothing but good could come from the natives exposure to it.

i dont think i can explain what is objectionable in the piece any more simply than that.

by the way skunk, i hold the far left in the same distain as i hold the far right. whether i think one side or the other is right or wrong depends on the issue at quesion.


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

terryr said:


> Fluke said "We are all Americans and we are all proud."
> 
> Not everyone is American....or proud. Anybody can use this dang internet thing.


terryr, i am an american and quite proud to be so. i am particularly proud of the fact that we have the freedom to speak our ideas and opinions on topics in an open forum.


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

*"When are you going to tell us what is so offensive about that diorama? Or can you?"*

I thought we already did?

Ever since the rise of Christianity and the fall of the Roman Empire the 'NEW' church has been seeking out those poor people all over the world who needed 'OUR GOD' in thier lives so bady and we gave it too them no matter what!...We shuved our religion down thier throughts with a nice side of guilt and all the things that are now WRONG, INMORAL and againts God! In northen Europe the 'CHURCH' destroyed anything that was not of GOD....the druids, natrualist and any group that based thier beliefs on nature and science rather than on the ideals of 'ONE GOD' or 'ONE DEVIL' like Razor stated above its all history! The crusades, the inquisition and the scopes monkey trials. Its all there in black and white........well not so black and white....there has been... and always will be two sides to any war like action....WEALTH, LAND and just simple power....religion is always the 'excuse or reason'.....more like the bandaid or rationalization.


The Diorama is offensive because it reminds me of all of this and while we tought them of our loving God we stole thier land, broke almost every treaty we made and robbed the native Americans and the African people of thier way of life and pretty much everything they had.

Thses are not accusations or theories just plain HISTORY!

The 'CHURCH' has always stood along side of the world governments, condoning, rationalizing and helped us all slept at night knowing that its done in the name of God.

Most major political wars and revolutions we see today in the USSR, Africa and in the middle east are ALL results of people messing around with other peoples beliefs, freedoms and ways of life.......One group says "We don't like you! or your religious ideas and gee....we want your land"......same old same old! *AND ITS GETTING VERY OLD!!!*

I thought that The good Dr. Seuss covered all this... like in Sneetches on the Beaches and in a few other books?

We as Americans are in a bad spot right now....We are very proud of who we are and we should be....yet at the same time we can see that something isn't right. Ever since 9-11 We can see and feel a big difference the way people are treating ech other. I feel less community now than ever before. People have thier flags and supportive bumper stickers on thier cars while they still cut you off, drive too close and just really don't give a hoot about you at all....So don't try to tell me how proud you are to be an American while talking on your cell phone, eating your mc'sauge sandwhich and not paying attention to who is around you. 

So they say that 90% of this planet believes in a God in one way or another....hmmm....So why is everything so MESSED UP!!??....If people TRULY believed in a better way....you would think that they would *try* to do so...no matter what thier government or group says!

I'm tired of excuses! and don't give me that old HUMAN FACTOR crap! 

*We behave and act as our religious, social and political leaders want us to! People are like children and well......there you have it.*

*SPANKINGS for everyone! BAD! Children! Bad!*

As the common folk....I still don't see why we just put or leaders in pens and let them battle out thier differences! Why should inocent people keep dying for what a small group believes in? why? 

*BAHHHAHHHHH!!!! BAHAHHHH!!!!!!!*


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

After he had journeyed, 
And his feet were sore, 
And he was tired, 
He came upon an orange grove 
And he rested. 
And he lay in the cool, 
And while he rested, he took unto himself an orange and tasted it, 
And it was good. 
And he felt the earth to his spine, 
And he asked, and he saw the tree above him, and the stars, 
And the veins in the leaf 
And the light, and the balance, 
And he saw magnificent perfection.

He thought of those he angered, 
For he was not a violent man, 
And he thought of those he hurt, 
For he was not a cruel man 
And he thought of those he frightened 
For he was not an evil man, 
And he understood. 
He understood himself. 
Upon this he saw that when he was of anger or knew hurt or felt fear, 
It was because he was not understanding, 
And he learned compassion. 


And with his eye of compassion 
He saw his enemies like unto himself, 
And he learned love. 
Then, he was answered. 

*Compassion, Undersatanding, caring and patients are just a few of the basics that MOST people have failed to keep in thier lunch box on a daily basis since the begining.....these days it seems like even less*


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

fluke, youre bringing out the bluto blutarski in me.....


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Food fight?


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

OK! Johns first!! Green eggs and ham coming up!


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## Swamp Skunk (Jul 15, 2000)

Thanks for your answers .... I still think you guys are still reading way too much into a simple diorama, but each his or her own. Fluke, if you should ever come to the Skunk's den .... And you make one smart remark about most of my armor collection being mostly " dirty Kraut stuff " or " stinking Commie stuff " .... I'M GONNA SMACK YA UPSIDE THE HEAD!!!!  

Hmmmm .... Shocking .... Me and Razorwyre1 actually agree on one point. There goes the neighborhood.  

Happy modeling folks .... Gotta get ready for a model contest and the ol Skunk here is way behind schedule. See ya at the next debate Dreamer .... Take care dude.  

Skunk

P.S. - Every fight should be a " food fight ". Yes, yes ....


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

Swampy, Don't I have a *BF109E*, a *German VIIC sub* and a *Rommel's Rod* on my home page? plus Dan, If we ever get together I think we would have more fun chasing the local college girls around over at the fire fly bar and grill right?  


All wars suck! some have better reasons than others....It was more simple when one group said were coming over there to rape your cattle, herd your women and take your land! ....then again....maybe things havn't changed over the years at all?...maybe its the rules and guidlines that are more complicated?

I think its easy for us modelers to romanticize war especially if we never had the chance to serve in a combat roll. 

Lets call this thing off and get back to that food fight!


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## Swamp Skunk (Jul 15, 2000)

Heck with the food fight .... LET'S GO CHASING COLLEGE GIRLS FLUKE!!!! Yes, yes ....  

Skunk


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

Now thats more like it!!


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## MangoMan (Jul 29, 1999)

My god's bigger than your god
My god's bigger than yours,
My god's bigger
And he chases satan
or anyone who might be 'im,
My god's bigger than yours,

My god's better than your god,
My god's better than yours,
He'll blow you into oblivion
your wife n your chilluns
My god's better than yours.

My god's tougher than your god,
My god's tougher than yours,
My god's tougher
yours is but a silly idol,
yours can't even the read the bible
My god's tougher than yours.

My god's louder than your god,
My god's louder than yours,
he'll shock and awe ya
Make you scream and holla
My god's louder than yours.

My god's richer than your god,
My god's richer than yours
He'll outspend ya
til there's nobody left to defend ya
my god's richer than yours

My god's older than your god,
My god's older than yours,
besides he speaks English
And yours eats with his fingers
My god's older than yours.

My god's better than your god,
My god's better than yours,
He'll blow you into oblivion
your wife n your chilluns
My god's better than yours

:devil:


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## F91 (Mar 3, 2002)

Cool song, too bad there's no music video! That would be cool, and violent as any War!


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

Cain slew Abel, Seth knew not why
For if the children of Israel were to multiply
Why must any of the children die?
So he asked the Lord
And the Lord said:

"Man means nothing, he means less to me
than the lowliest cactus flower
or the humblest yucca tree
he chases round this desert
cause he thinks that's where I'll be
that's why I love mankind

I recoil in horror from the foulness of thee
from the squalor and the filth and the misery
How we laugh up here in heaven at the prayers you offer me
That's why I love mankind"

The Christians and the Jews were having a jamboree
The Buddhists and the Hindus joined on satellite TV
They picked their four greatest priests
And they began to speak
They said "Lord the plague is on the world
Lord no man is free
The temples that we built to you
Have tumbled into the sea
Lord, if you won't take care of us
Won't you please please let us be?"

And the Lord said
And the Lord said

"I burn down your cities--how blind you must be
I take from you your children and you say how blessed are we
You must all be crazy to put your faith in me
That's why I love mankind
- _You really need me_
That's why I love mankind"


----------



## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

No one likes us
I don't know why.
We may not be perfect
But heaven knows we try.
But all around even our old friends put us down.
Let's drop the big one and see what happens.

We give them money
But are they grateful?
No they're spiteful
And they're hateful.
They don't respect us so let's surprise them;
We'll drop the big one and pulverize them.

Now Asia's crowded
And Europe's too old.
Africa's far too hot,
And Canada's too cold.
And South America stole our name.
Let's drop the big one; there'll be no one left to blame us.

Bridge:
We'll save Australia;
Don't wanna hurt no kangaroo.
We'll build an all-American amusement park there;
They've got surfing, too.

Well, boom goes London,
And boom Paree'
More room for you
And more room for me.
And every city the whole world round
Will just be another American town.
Oh, how peaceful it'll be;
We'll set everybody free;
You'll have Japanese kimonos, baby,
There'll be Italian shoes for me.
They all hate us anyhow,
So let's drop the big one now.
Let's drop the big one now.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

I don't care if it rains or freezes
'long as I got my plastic Jesus
Ridin' on the dashboard of my car.

I can go a hundred miles an hour
'long as I got the Almighty Power
glued up there by my pair of fuzzy dice.


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

Holy Cow John!

HA!! I havn't heard that in years! :roll: :lol: 

Isn't there something about the whole entire Holy family on top of yer TV with rotating, glow in the dark halos improving your tv reception?

Post the whole thing if ya can?

*UPDATE!*

*Scratch that John, man what a long ass song!*

The second part must have been something else by the same guy?


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Heck, those two verses were all I know! There's more!?


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

I did a google on that and the lrrics list was really long!....I myself have never heard the whole song....I just remembered what a Highschool buddy was always singing :freak:


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

hey guys remember that sick litle 9-11 toy we were dicussing earlier in this thread? well seems like the toy importer who put that out, along with another toy which had osama standing between the towers, is at it again! now in floridian bags of candy is the latest "free prize inside": a toy picture cell phone... and guess who's picture's on the screen? you got it.. osama....

details of the story are here: http://www.wftv.com/newsofthestrange/3749246/detail.html


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

^Well, if that's the extant of Al Qaida's current attack campaign, I can stand it :lol:.


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

yeah right john... the asians portrying osama as a hero to their children. flipping hilarious. what theyre doing is indoctrinating their kids that what he did was a good thing, an accomplisment to be admired, and that his tactics are not only acceptable, but laudable.

funny? its terrifying


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Well, jeez, if ya put it THAT way.....


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## ChrisDoll (Sep 2, 1999)

Ya ever get the impression that killing these people by the bushels isn't such a bad idea?


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

ChrisDoll said:


> Ya ever get the impression that killing these people by the bushels isn't such a bad idea?


Who? Chinese toy makers? Hispanic grocers? All Muslims? The 14,000 to 20,000 Iraqi non-combatants who have died already? Who is it that we should kill "by the bushel" - and how will that solve this problem?


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

Oh please! not again!


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## ChrisDoll (Sep 2, 1999)

It was a mere yes/no question. To which I say YES.

MWAHAHAHAHHAA, look I PUSHED THE BIG RED BUTTON!

How do I get my quarter back?


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

"14,000 to 20,000 Iraqi non-combatants" ??

Funny ....in the fims I have seen it sure looks like avearge every day Iraqi citizens that are throwing stuff at U.S. and other foreign vehicles while they burn! 

*You know....All this and 9 11 would not have happend in the first place if we have never gotten involved with Isreal after WWII, get the hell out of the Middel East ( where we do not belong! ) and find better and smarter ways to HEAT and POWER things like scienteist were trying to tell us as far back as the early fifties!* 

What is this??!!....do we live in Gothem City?...What kind of world do we live in when we have nic'names like Ms. Anthrax and Ms. Germ for serious or not so serious criminals?

Instead of admiration, reverance and seen as a leader of peace, We are being laughed at. 

I'm not laughing.

We can buy oil without having a presence in the Middle East!

*We should NOT be there!....*It's that simple.

Could anyone! in simple terms explain to the young people today why we are there? past or present?

I would like to hear that.


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## dreamer (Jan 1, 1970)

Uh-oh! The 9/11 thread has spread like a virus! It's taking over!



fluke said:


> Oh please! not again!


Oh my god, it's the _Night of the Living Thread!_



fluke said:


> "14,000 to 20,000 Iraqi non-combatants" ??
> 
> Funny ....in the fims I have seen it sure looks like avearge every day Iraqi citizens that are throwing stuff at U.S. and other foreign vehicles while they burn!


Exactly. Anybody catch Richard Clarke on The Daily Show? His book "Against All Enemies" is about to hit paperback, and I can't recommend it strongly enough to everyone who takes Iraq and the War on Terror the least bit seriously - whatever side of the political fence you're on. Conservatives and Republicans have hailed the book as well, at the risk of incurring the wrath of Bush's people. It's th inside story from the guy on Bush's team (formerly) who knows the Middle East and al Quaeda better than anyone.

He was pointing out that the people we are fighting with now in Iraq were never a part of al Quaeda or other terror groups, they were never a threat to America in any way. Yet it's them we're now at war with. Why? Jon Stewart: "Uhhhh....we're seting them free??"


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

Dreamer your OK.... I don't care what those young girls said about you from last years Science fiction contests, Hotel fire and police thing!  

Good point! 

Remember that whole thing earlier in this thread about Religions and how they can form barriers between peoples just because of what or how they believe? and it too easily justifies our actions good or bad?

Well my parants are a classic example of this....They are very good people but they are very 'Christain' and support all this war stuff 100%! 

*"They are the bad guys!...We are the good guys"*

*...*its that simple...very black and white....and I'm afraid that most of America are pretty much the same way....just like most people in the Middle East think about us!

*Government, TV news and Religion are the MAIN reasons why we think we hate each other! *

Bin Ladin must be thinking..."wow...Martha Stewart is going to jail and I'm safe here in my cave...hmmmm...Man! do those people have thier priorities messed up"

Thats if the $#@& ^&%$# Jerk is in a cave at all!.....Whatiya bet hes in a nice safe home or Hotel some where in the Middle east miles from where we THINK he is!


*Don't get me wrong! I love my Country, I have served in the U.S. Army and I believe in FREEDOM ( for those who EARN IT! ) and freedom was and is NEVER FREE! But Don't send our Troops off to die for oil and some crap like:*

*FUBAR!!!*


*and*

*SNAFU!!!*


*Wouldn't be nice if we went to war for a GOOD reason and for people who actually asks for our help for a change?*

*Keep in mind that for many people in many countries WE have been and still are the 'Terrorist' we have been stepping on toes for along time.....*

*Who are we to set polices and to say what is right or fare...heck...WE can't even fight organized crime or DRUG LORDS in our own country, gangs, etc etc.*

*THIS WORLD NEEDS TO STOP, LOOK, LISTION and SEE WHAT WE ARE DOING TO EACH OTHER! *
*WE ARE MOVING WAY TOO FAST.*


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

Eye wuz gonna post sum stupid song lyric butt changed my brain.

*SAVE FERRIS!!*


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