# G3 SS build



## mking (Apr 25, 2000)

hi. i race the G3 platform locally; G3 SS and G-jets.

Recently a hobbytalker contacted me about tweaking a G3 SS. this thread will be about the progress of the G3 SS build. 

Car arrived today. 

_Looks like Wizzard front, Wizzard 440 rears, and Wizzard 24T crown. Shoes are well worn, chassis has a lot of miles, but that’s ok as the G3 chassis can take a beating. _

_Cleaned shoes and oiled. Track tested. Best lap 2.79. For comparison, my worst G3 SS has a hot lap of 2.615, my best has a hot lap of 2.223, and most are well under 2.40. The better plastic grey Tomy chassis usually will do a hot lap of 2.68 or so after tweaking. My SS rear end set up is usually a BSRT 22T crown, Ti axle and 436 ASTs. _

_Tear down chassis and true stacks and com using dremel and emery board. Replace front bushing with a bored out bushing and use rear beedle bushing. Drill rear of chassis (by hand, glued in body posts prevent use of fixture) to enable the rear axle to be pinned (having a rear axle pop out during a race costs precious seconds, especially if the person popping the axle in place is not careful with any shims/washers used to space the crown gear). Tear down notes: Rubbing on arm shaft at rear bushing indicates arm is not well balanced. Endbell is worn and copper contacts very discolored (looks like heat). Wire brush the contacts. Replace shoes with gold shoes, 8 gold springs, and gold shoe hangers. Reassemble, oil; track test. Not much improvement. _

_Closer look: the crown doesn’t mesh well with the new pinion. Could break in with rubbing compound/toothpaste, but instead I swap rear ends to use a BSRT 22T crown, Ti axle and 440 ASTs. Improvement. Hot lap 2.68. Seems to run hot. _

_Replace 335 fronts with 340 fronts. Lap times go up to 2.80. Go back to 335 fronts and lap times drop back. _

_Try different rear end: Zone 2 342 tires, Ti axle, 22T crown. Lap times go up to 2.80. _

_Hmmm. 58 minutes into tuning. Plan to go to 9 springs and lower ASTs. Not happy with arm or end bell, will try replacing those next. May also replace beedle bushing with reamed rear bushing. I have a stack of bushings to ream (I do a lot of bushings at once production line fashion to use for later). _

_More later. _


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## mking (Apr 25, 2000)

*post dinner tweaks*

_went to 355 fronts, and got the time down to 2.594 with the 440 ASTs and 22T crown._

_went to 9 springs and handling went south. tried the 432 Zone 2 tires and couldnt get under 2.60_

_still not happy. put a gray tomy chassis i tweaked earlier this week on the track and did a 2.595 with 450 black ASTs and 350 fronts. the G3 chassis ought to do better. _

_tomorrow i will be replacing the end bell and maybe the arm _


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

Mike, this looks like the start of a good article. 

It would be very worthwhile to summarize your track configuration, like type/brand of track, length, rail type, and maybe even a picture of the layout. Some of the sizes sound a bit out of the ballpark for say, Tomy track. Also, a summation of the cost of the parts used for the build, assuming you had to buy them new, would be very informative once you get the right combination figured out. It would be extremely interesting to see the cost/performance ratio for the various parts, especially the bigger ticket ones. 

What size reamer do you use for bushings? 
Truing a comm with a Dremel and an emery board? This sounds very, very dicey compared to say using a comm lathe. What kind of jig are you using?

Thanks and keep it coming.


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## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)

mking said:


> _ . . . __still not happy. put a gray tomy chassis i tweaked earlier this week on the track and did a 2.595 with 450 black ASTs and 350 fronts. the G3 chassis ought to do better. . . . _


Ya think? - lol. :lol:

Love those box stock bullets that were built on the perfect day, with perfect conditions, with the perfect parts, at the perfect factory, on the day when the planets aligned - perfectly. :thumbsup:

Sometimes you just gotta shake your head at the randomness of mass-produced toy products. :freak:


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## mking (Apr 25, 2000)

*Testing conditions*

The track is a maxtrax, about 9 years old. i bought it used from a hobby shop in michigan off ebay, and stored it for 7 years. pulled it out in 2007 and with the help of friends from the local racing group (HOPAC) built a table and set it up. Several pics on hobbytalk, just search for Talbot or Talbot Hills (the name of the local neighborhood). Optical timing using trackmate. 

Dremel vs com lathe. No doubt a com lathe would be optimal compared to a dremel, but i have had good luck dremel and emery board trick. no jig, just handheld. simple, but effective for reconditioning an arm. im not the only one that uses that trick, i was at scale auto one day buying parts and had brought in a car that i wanted Gary Beedle to look at. It was a polymer car that had overheated (i was running too soft of a tire). He stripped the car down quickly, pointed out signs of overheating in the end bell, and then chucked the arm in a dremel to polish up the com to see if the arm was ok). Note that Scale Auto does use a com lathe for their production arms, Gary was just doing a quick test to evaluate the arm. But it did validate the concept. 

Bushing reaming: 0.0605 reamer from Rabbit Racing. Before I ream a bushing I chuck a 0.0610 piece of drill rod into my dremel. that size is too large to pass through the hole in the bushing. i place the bushing onto a fine emery board. then i put the end of the drill rod (the end has been tapered) into the bushing (holding the dremel vertically). turning on the dremel causes the bushing to spin on the emery board, polishing one of the faces. during assembly, i put the polished side facing in toward the armature stacks. if the arm shifts as it spins, any contact with the bushing will be on a polsihed face of the bushing. Then i ream the bushing with the 0.0605 reamer, and then i wet a piece pipe cleaner with Brasso or polishing compound, and polish the inside of the bushing. finally i soak the bushing in rubbing alcohol to remove the polishing compound, and dry. i do this for the front and rear bushing. 

End bell tweak: described here. http://www.supervipersystems.com/VargoSpeedway/Racing_Tips/racing_tips.html 

look for super G+ tips. basically i focus on bending the tabs that contact the shoe holder, and the tabs holding the brushes against the com. 

you really need the HT394 endbell tool from scale auto/bsrt to get the bushing out of the endbell. to get the bushing back in the endbell, place the bushing on the arm, spread the tabs holding the brushes, and push the arm and bushing into the endbell. 

more later.....


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## mking (Apr 25, 2000)

*tire sizes*

so this morning i played more with tire sizes. 

previously i said i was using 440 ASTs. shame on me. i measured them this morning and they were actually 436. 

i tried fronts ranging from 335 to 355, and rears ranging from 434 to 438. 

so far the best time remains 2.594, with 345 fronts and 436 rears.


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## martybauer31 (Jan 27, 2004)

Did you ever replace the end bell Mike? Like you mentioned earlier, you may have an arm that just isn't that good as well, might want to swap it out with a known good one to see how that helps....

G3 or G3R chassis? Also, the magnets might need a good zap and match...


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## mking (Apr 25, 2000)

*got a little more*

went to #9 srpings from #8. a little more power but the corners are tricker. overall no change in lap times. 

the front end was tight. i like just a little play. i reamed out the front axle holes using a piece of 0.051 drill rod with a tapered tip. chuck it into a dremel and ream the front axle holes. 

it felt faster. got several hot laps. dropped from 2.954 to 2.576!

now at #9 springs, 436 ASTs, Ti axle, 22T crown, 345 fronts


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## Blitteer (Sep 12, 2008)

Mike,
Do you use the blue bushings or the brass? I have had better luck with the blue ones in my S/S. 
Bob


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## mking (Apr 25, 2000)

*bushings*

i have some of the blue bushings, but ive been warned that if the car ever runs hot the blue bushing will warp and bad things will happen

so i have stuck with the brass long bushing in the rear and the stock bushing in the front

next up is to change the end bell as martyb suggested. the chassis is a G3, not a G3R, so i dont have any zapped magnets handy. before i mail this off i will take it to scale auto to zap the magnets, time permitting

had to take a break and get groceries (i.e., beer and cornuts) to continue.....

btw, a big green bird told me that HOPAC will be racing a 905 class this sping (a G3R chassis, 6 ohm arm, ceramic motor mags, the new compression molded BSRT traction magnets in the stronger flavor, and indepdent fronts). basically, a superstock with the new traction magnets.


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## mking (Apr 25, 2000)

*new end bell no joy*

replacing the end bell has not improved laptimes. the car is easy to drive, but cant break 2.60 now, regardless of tire sizes or spring sizes. i did replace the rear beedle bushing with a stock bushing. switching back to the beedle bushing had no appreciable effect.

the increase in lap times may be a function of the brushes, which are not well broken in on the new endbell. im going to break in this endbell arm combo overnight and see if there is an improvement


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## martybauer31 (Jan 27, 2004)

Hey Mike, tell that Big, Green, dopey bird to stop speculating on what we're going to race....


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## mking (Apr 25, 2000)

*success!!!!*

i tried a bunch of used end bells and arms, trying to find a sweet combination. wasnt getting anywhere so i pulled out a known good arm (2.40 lap time in a G3R) and tested that arm with various endbells. no joy

pulled a NEW BSRT 098 endbell out of the package. JOY!

2.554 laptime. 

by now ive turned 1086 laps on this chassis. the traction magnets are chipped, and do not seat well. about 30% of crashes result in the traction magents moving out of position, slowing laptimes significantly until fixed. 

this is the older G3 chassis that only accomodates the notched magnets. i happened to have 1 set of notched magnets so i put them in the chassis. 

put the arm the car came with back in. 

went back to 009 springs (power!).

*hot lap of 2.448*
original hot lap 2.79

improvement 12.4%

current set up

345 fronts
436 AST rears, 22T crown, Ti axle. 

parts list

car as arrived 

902 chassis used (was probably about $40 with stock tires and fronts)
wizzard fronts ~$7
wizzard rear 436 tires, wiz 24T crown (does not mesh well with BSRT pinion), steel axle

new parts:
BSRT gold springs 009 ~$1
BSRT gold shoe hangers $4
BSRT gold shoes $2
BSRT beedle bushing rear $4
BSRT HT098 end bell $7
Ti axle ~$2 (cut from rod stock from smallparts.com, 30 inches =$11)
BSRT 22T crown $2
BSRT 436 ASTs $14
BSRT flex timing bracket $4

total new parts: $40

probably dont need the rear beedle bushing or the timing bracket, so i could reduce the cost by $8

the arm is actually pretty good for a stock arm. 

i dont think i can get more out of this chassis, mostly becasue it is a G3 vs a G3R. The G3R enables you to use the full width traction magents, which are better. 

to upgrade to the G3R you need the chassis ($10), body posts ($8), and magents ($16 for ceramic, $6 for the new compression molded magnets). 

if the compression molded magnets are legal for this racer, i would suggest going to the G3R chassis. 

the HT098 end bell has the twisted brushes. i actually think the HT092 end bell ($2 less) would have worked just as well, but i didnt have any in my parts bin.

*HT098**-**G3** "Twisted Brush" Gold-Plated Endbell with reamed bushing - NEW!*




*$7*


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## neorules (Oct 20, 2006)

"i have some of the blue bushings, but ive been warned that if the car ever runs hot the blue bushing will warp and bad things will happen."

Mike--- if the car is running that hot, Bad things have already happened.

The blue bushings are far superior and lighter.


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## mking (Apr 25, 2000)

*more tweaking*

removed beedle bushing at rear and replaced with reamed stock bushing. removed flex timing bracket and replaced with stock timing bracket

ASTs, Ti axle, 22T BSRT delrin crown

432 rear, 335 fronts: hot lap 2.468
432 rear, 340 fronts: hot lap 2.542
432 rear, 345 fronts: hot lap 2.552

434 rear, 335 fronts: hot lap 2.499 
434 rear, 340 fronts: hot lap 2.506
434 rear, 345 fronts: hot lap 2.541

436 rear, 335 fronts: hot lap 2.535
436 rear, 340 fronts: hot lap 2.599
436 rear, 345 fronts: hot lap 2.559

(getting tired now)

Zone 2 tires, Ti axle, 22T BSRT delrin crown

434 rear, 335 fronts: hot lap 2.641
434 rear, 340 front: hot lap 2.713 
434 rear, 345 front: hot lap 2.865

zone 2 seems stickier, so i propbably need to go to a larger size


just to prove im not so tired i cant drive, i put a G3R SS on the track, earlier today i got a 2.445 lap with this car. now i got a 2.449, so im tired or the tracks dirty, or both


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## Blitteer (Sep 12, 2008)

Thanks for all the testing info!!! With all the tips, mabe I can be better in July!!!! The only thing I didn't see is the pinion size. I saw you race I feel you can drive just fine tired or not!!Do I hear Pro S/S on the horizon??:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## mking (Apr 25, 2000)

*pinion size*

7T for all.

to get an idea of how well this SS compares to the fleet i built up for last years G3 championship, here are my build notes from b4 the race:

*SUPERSTOCK BUILD SHEET*​
All chassis tested with titanium axle, 22T crown, 436 rears

# Hot Lap Arm R Bush FB Pinion B-head Other
1 2.223 HS BB S D F
2 2.615 HS BB S T F still poor handling
3 2.298 S BB S T F
4 2.376 HS S S D F
5 2.456 HS BB S D F lacks speedl
6 2.288 HS BB S T F handles! 
7 2.352 S BB S T F prefers 247 shoes
8 2.387 HS P S T F G3 chassis
9 2.394 HS S S T S Silver electrical
10 2.366 HS S S T F
11 2.336 HS BB S D S Silver electrical
12 2.329 S BB S T F 

S=stock HS=hot stock BB=beedle bushing D=BSRT delrin pinion T=tomy pinion P=poly blue bushing F=flex bulkhead/timing bracket


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## hrnts69 (Apr 12, 2007)

Hey Mike, great buildup on the car. Get to see everything your doin to it. And giving me setups that i could use and what times they would prolly run. Do i need to send you some more money for the parts we didnt plan out. (Endbell, and traction magnets)?

Thanks for doin this Mike!
Blake


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## mking (Apr 25, 2000)

*more testing*

Zone 2 tires, Ti axle, 22T BSRT delrin crown

438 rear, 335 fronts: hot lap 2.548
438 rear, 340 front: hot lap 2.578 
438 rear, 345 front: hot lap 2.711 (wow)

440 rear, 325 front: too low, tires dont touch
440 rear, 330 front: hot lap 2.606
440 rear, 335 fronts: hot lap 2.618
440 rear, 340 front: hot lap 2.650 
440 rear, 345 front: hot lap 2.700

note: Zone 2 tires dont like to be scuffed before using like ASTs. i scuffed the 440 Zone 2 tires but not the 438s. big difference in feel

back to 436 ASTs, 22T crown, 9 springs 2.502. 8 springs 2.634

so i am preferring the 436 ASTs, 22T crown, 9 spings, although the 438 Zone 2 are good too


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## mking (Apr 25, 2000)

*G3 vs G3R*

i prefer the G3R chassis to the G3 chassis

BSRT has made 3 types of ceramic magnets for the G3/G3R chassis

Type I has a cut out as the rear of the magnet letting you use wider tires. It will fit the G3 chassis

TYpe II is a full width magnet that requires the use of narrow tires. It will fit the G3 chassis

TYpe III is full width magnet with a step on one end that requires the use of narrow tires. It will fit the G3R chassis.

Blake sent a G3 chassis with the Type I magnets. I forgot till this morning that I have a few Type II magnets. So I swapped the Type I with the Type II, and the chassis handles much better. So I will stick to the chassis Blake sent, and will play around with a few more arms. I am consistnetly turning low 2.4s and the car is very drivable.


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## mking (Apr 25, 2000)

ASTs, Ti axle, 22T BSRT delrin crown

432 rear, 330 fronts: hot lap 2.454 easy to drive
432 rear, 335 fronts: hot lap 2.537 twitchy
432 rear, 340 fronts: hot lap 2.576 felt faster than it was, easy to drive

434 rears, 330 fronts, hot lap 2.453 fast but dragging a bit
434 rear, 335 fronts: hot lap 2.472 *boy thats fun to drive* 
434 rear, 340 fronts: hot lap 2.528
434 rear, 345 fronts: hot lap 2.568

436 rears, 330 front: hot lap 2.579 having trouble in one corner
436 rear, 335 fronts: hot lap 2.545 much better
436 rear, 340 fronts: hot lap 2.690 yuck
436 rear, 345 fronts: hot lap 2.656


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## Blitteer (Sep 12, 2008)

*Time Difference*

Yesterday you reported a time of 2.448 with:
Front .345, Rear .436, 22T pinion Ti axle.
Today same setup only 2.656
What changed besides the endbell? I'm assuming his chassis with the updated parts and arm was used both times. 
Bob


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## mking (Apr 25, 2000)

*2.448 hot lap*

im not sure where that went. 

if you look over the laptimes, you can see that ive gotten into the 2.4s multiple times, so a lap that fast isnt a fluke.

but your right i havent been able to duplicate the 2.448 with the same set up. 

i did change the shoes after about 1500 laps, but that shouldnt have made much of a difference. 

it was just a magic lap. the fact ive turned other laps in the 2.4's multiple times makes me comfortable with the car. 

its breaking right now at 4.5V, ill break it in for 24 hours and see whats up


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## mking (Apr 25, 2000)

*after 24 hours of break in.....*

i put the car on the track and without any warmup was able to rattle 4 laps under 2.5:

1:2.603
2:2.549
3:2.587
4:2.594
5:2.588
6:2.565
7:2.526
8:2.475
9:2.518
10:2.487
11:2.447
12:2.437

thats without running any laps at all today. im sure if i warmed up id break 2.3

i am going to step away now. ive messed up cars b4 trying to get just a little more.


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