# Fact or Fiction?



## rudykizuty (Aug 16, 2007)

Banked turns and T-Jets don't play nice together. Fact or fiction?

I don't own either at the moment, but I definitely plan to have the latter in my stable at some point. In the meantime, I'm finalizing plans for my track design. Once I drop the chunk of change it will take and it's built, there's no going back. Err, at least I hope not. 

Your thoughts will be most helpful.


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## Crimnick (May 28, 2006)

IIRC..either Model motoring or aroura had a "monza" curve that was banked....but no where near as much banking as modern tyco 9" or Tomy 9"&12" banks...

I think the life like has banks with less degrees of pitch....and a built in outer wall too...12" I think...


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## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)

Crimnick said:


> I think the life like has banks with less degrees of pitch....and a built in outer wall too...12" I think...


Yeah -- it's 12" with a wall on the outside. The problem is there is no similarly banked 9" curve for the inside lanes if you are planning on building a 4-laner.


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## neophytte (Sep 14, 2006)

Fiction - as long as you have a decent straight going in and coming out of the bank. We run these quite regular:

http://neophytte.mine.nu/photo/2006-09-30-HO-slotcars/

Cheers

Richard


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

1976Cordoba said:


> Yeah -- it's 12" with a wall on the outside. The problem is there is no similarly banked 9" curve for the inside lanes if you are planning on building a 4-laner.


 Pretty hard to build a four lane Lifelike track - the curve variations just aren't there.

Actually Lifelike did make a 9" banked curve which I had forgotten all about until I was going through my old eBay listings and found the picture and description.

They did not sell them on their website (when they had a website) or directly and I got mine via sets (another one of those head scratchers). It's possible they came out of the Disney set, but without one here at the moment, I cannot conform that.

In any case, buy using adapters (if you are so inclined) you could use the Tomy or Tyco 9" curves with the Lifelike curves.

Joe


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## rudykizuty (Aug 16, 2007)

Sorry I didn't clarify.....the track will definitely be Tomy.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

If you put some decent silicone tires on a stock TJet you can get it around the steep banks with practice. With stock rubber tires, yeah, it's possible but you'll need to practice a lot and it's a race between you taking the time to figure it out or you getting sick of picking the car up off the bottom of the bank. The wider the car's track and the stickier the tire, the better. A Fray style TJet, no problem at all. Magnet cars, XTs, UltraGs, on up, no problem unless you're running a body whose nose scrapes on the banking. It's primarily the 9" turn and the unrealistic degree of banking that is the bugaboo.

Now ... if somebody would just do a 15-20 degree banking, 4 lane capable (with clips to lock them together), banked turn set that basically fills a four foot width for a 180 degree turn and mates with Tomy track I'd buy at least two sets of them in a heartbeat. This would probably come out to 21" and 24" banked track sections. This would at least allow for something closer to a Bristol type track. But alas, even with the massive popularity of NASCAR (welcome F1 and IndyCar drivers) nobody has stepped up to provide these much needed pieces despite selling sets that feature NASCAR type vehicles. To me this is a huge oversight, equivalent to trying to garner support from drag racers without selling any straight track pieces. 

I love tracks with banked sections, but none of the current track manufacturers make a banked track piece that even closely approximates what you would find on a real race track. But if you are interested in them you can give them a try and if they don't work out swap them with flat pieces. As you can see in the pictures, some people really enjoy them and maybe you will too.


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## vaBcHRog (Feb 19, 2003)

Fiction,

Gary Butner of WV has a great looking track that I have run on a few times. He has a bank curve just before the main 24ft straight and another one mid way. I took a couple of may Fat Fender cars a 47 Chevy and 49 Ford that were slammed down. They did have my fat fender wheels and slip-on silicones on the rear. They had no trouble at all with the banks. Now you can not go full throttle through them you have to let off the throttle then get right back on, almost a blip as you enter the curve but they will go right on through every time. Now if a faster car is outside of you he may just take you out when your rear end is hanging out 

Roger Corrie


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

SlottV,has made his own banked curves,maybe Scott will re-post his pic's of his banked curves,they look pretty good as far as a realistic banked curve :thumbsup:


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

AfxToo said:


> Now ... if somebody would just do a 15-20 degree banking, 4 lane capable (with clips to lock them together), banked turn set that basically fills a four foot width for a 180 degree turn and mates with Tomy track I'd buy at least two sets of them in a heartbeat. This would probably come out to 21" and 24" banked track sections. This would at least allow for something closer to a Bristol type track. But alas, even with the massive popularity of NASCAR (welcome F1 and IndyCar drivers) nobody has stepped up to provide these much needed pieces despite selling sets that feature NASCAR type vehicles. To me this is a huge oversight, equivalent to trying to garner support from drag racers without selling any straight track pieces.


 I don't think banked curves will happen for a simple reason - no way to sell enough to make it profitable. In order to make a piece of track that will sell, you need one of two things; thousands of people to buy a couple each or a few people who buy a lot - and I mean a lot - the equivilent of those thousands of people.

On any given racetrack, just how many banked curves is anyone going to use? Compare that to the number of straights and/or flat curves in that same layout. See the problem. If we could not get great sales numbers out of the the pieces we made (6", 15" and 18" curves), what chance have you got with a specialty piece like a banked curve? And then only people with four lanes (which knocks out the 2 lane and 6 lane folks) would be interested in four lane banks.

Lots of different track pieces would be nice; got a whole list I'd like to do. However, the economics just aren't there.

Joe


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## Dslot (Sep 2, 2007)

If the Tomy banking is too steep, you could look for some old AFX banked track pieces and use adapters to transition to the Tomy straights. You could even use Lock and Joiner pieces, but you'd have to make a pair of adapters by chopping a L&J straight and a Tomy straight in half, and gluing+soldering the mismatched halves together.
-- D


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## BewstdGT (Jan 4, 2005)

I'll warn you, unless you are a "tuner" and know how to make the t-jets work well you wont get around a 9" radius banked turn if its longer than 90 degrees AND you have a long straight going into it. My setup looks like this: http://www.designbydan.com/pt/HOTRACK18.jpg

Out of the box none of the t-jets will be able to build up enough speed to carry thru the banked turns, and I have a few 8 ft straights. I even tried good sticky silicone tires and it didnt help much. Working on the pickups and using shrink rap on the posts can help, as well as cutting the oem plastic slot pin down about 1mm. At least thats what I did for my tyco track. But honestly I dont see any chance of running them on a track like mine. Ive tried everything and no go. The faster the t-jets go the easier it is but they arent exactly a superG+. I have been able to run old aurora afx cars and they run great with the ocassional slip on the low side of the banked turns. But usually they go fast enough to make the turns when the T-jets dont. 

I would rather have a flat track if I were racing T-Jets because even if you can manage getting them around a bank a half the time it means you have a lot of running to do to retrieve cars. Its better to just have a flat track and not worry about them unslotting all the time! I got sick of walking around every other lap to get the car heh but Im lazy like that.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

BewstdGT, I definitely know what you're talking about. I use my home track basically for testing, tuning, break-in, and playing with scenery. I found the banking too much trouble for much the same reasons, I'm lazy, and having to get up and retrieve my cars too often required too much work. 

I can still dream about realistic banked turns. I think anyone who is a NASCAR fan and looking for a race set would love to be able to build one that models the real NASCAR experience. Considering NASCAR runs 34 of 36 points races on ovals / tri-ovals, the fact that none of the NASCAR themed race sets resemble the real thing leaves much to be desired. 

I agree that making a lot of money on sectional track pieces is a tough deal. It's a razor/razer blade scenario with tracks/cars. I'd say that most enthusiasts have 10X or greater in their car collection than in their tracks. All the more reason that if I were trying to sell a lot of NASCAR style cars I'd want to be able to provide a track that inspired people to buy more of these cars. Yeah, I can imagine my NASCAR stockers are tooling around Infineon or Watkins Glen, with replacement road race specialists too I suppose, but that's such a small part of the NASCAR theme that I feel like I'm missing out on the vast majority of the NASCAR experience. My two cents worth. 

Maybe a revolutionary improvement would be successful where evolutionary improvements have come up short? It appears from the lack of Tomy compatible 18" turns hanging on pegs that they sold pretty well. They were somewhat revolutionary at the time. Perhaps following those up with 21" Tomy compatible turns would have built on the success of the earlier Tomy piece and continued a trend of pushing the edge of the envelope? It seems like going with Tyco pieces for the second round of aftermarket track pieces was a big gamble, with Tyco's much lower market share and all. The 6" and 15" pieces are gap fillers, but only for the rare few people who haven't given up on Tyco track altogether. The 18" Tyco curve is definitely above and beyond anything Tyco did, but again, what is the percentage of people building Tyco based layouts? Tomy has already won the sectional track battle.


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## Crimnick (May 28, 2006)

You want a NASCAR experience....help me bug Tomy into producing an 8 car slotless digital set.... :thumbsup: 

Bumpin is racin!


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## old blue (May 4, 2007)

The purists will not like this answer, but the tjets with one tiny magnet from Radio Shack glued underneath will do anything most modern magnet cars will do.


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Just a tidbit for you Dave,our group dumped all our Tomy tracks,only kept our Tyco sectional tracks.
I wouldn't say Tyco is dead yet,too much of it still kicking around garage sales,and if you go by garage sales,it would seem Tyco track is still very popular


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

> if you go by garage sales,it would seem Tyco track is still very popular


That's very interesting ...

... so this also means that used children's clothing, old VCR tapes, ash trays, electric typewriters, toaster ovens, animal figurines, and velvet Elvis paintings must also be very popular. Hmmm, a vast untapped market potential.  

Sorry, I couldn't resist.


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Damn,you found a velvet Elvis :wave: :wave:


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

AfxToo said:


> Maybe a revolutionary improvement would be successful where evolutionary improvements have come up short? It appears from the lack of Tomy compatible 18" turns hanging on pegs that they sold pretty well. They were somewhat revolutionary at the time. Perhaps following those up with 21" Tomy compatible turns would have built on the success of the earlier Tomy piece and continued a trend of pushing the edge of the envelope? It seems like going with Tyco pieces for the second round of aftermarket track pieces was a big gamble, with Tyco's much lower market share and all. The 6" and 15" pieces are gap fillers, but only for the rare few people who haven't given up on Tyco track altogether. The 18" Tyco curve is definitely above and beyond anything Tyco did, but again, what is the percentage of people building Tyco based layouts? Tomy has already won the sectional track battle.


 If by revolutionary you mean something that does not already exist, then that is the way to go.

I can tell you I will not drop another penny into Tomy compatible track. When Tomy copied our 18" curve, it made our mold and investment worthless. Never again. If you want more Tomy track, it will have to come out of Racemasters.

On the Tyco side, I think there is still a lot of Tyco being used out there. I'm guessing the amout of Tyco track/sets sold over the years dwarfed Tomy. Sure most of them probably hit the landfill or garage sales, but I'll bet there is a lot still out there.

Seems there are folks who genuinely prefer one brand over the other. Therefore, one must conclude they each have their good and bad points.

I had to do the Tyco 6" and 15" curves in order to build the base for being able to go beyond that. No sense in an 18" Tyco if there was no 15". However, if fortune shines on me and I am able to ever get the finances neccessary to do more pieces, the Tyco compatible 18" and 21" curves will be in the top five along with a 3" intersection, 3.5" terminal/jumper and a really long straight.

Has Tomy won the track battle? At this point, that may be true only because Mattle isn't pumping out product like they used to. If the old Tyco line was reinvigorated, it would be a whole new ballgame. 

Joe


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## rudykizuty (Aug 16, 2007)

Umm........Thanks to everyone who posted. I think I've arrived at a decision.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

Joe, yeah I guess you did end up doing some advanced R&D and market research for Racemasters, for free. That's a raw deal because they appeared to be dormant on the new track front, until of course, you stirred them up with your product that was widely popular. The newly awoken regime at Racemasters does seem to be very engaged with new product development so perhaps some greater good for all of us has come of it, but unfortunately, at your expense. If it's any consolation, those of us who race on your track still find it to be an impeccable piece of work. A remaining caveat is that Mattel could do exactly the same thing to you, although they appear to be in a much more lifeless state than the slumber that Tomy/Racemasters was in a few years ago. With all the scrutiny Mattel is under now just to build toys that aren't toxic or lethal, I don't see them reviving, much less expanding, their old slot car line anytime soon. But you never know, they could surprise us.

I still run on Tyco tracks occasionally and they are fine. At least Tyco is finally viable for building multi-lane tracks with the variety of turns that are now available. I do see more people moving up from set track to the large format modular track systems, e.g., Wizzard and MaxTrax. That will be the route I will most likely take with my next track.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

> Damn,you found a velvet Elvis


What can I say, it was signed and on sale just for that one day. The seller said he had three other bidders waiting in line for it. I still think I got a good deal, even with the finance charges and the extended warranty. It looks great next to my velvet Dogs Playing Poker piece, and my special edition velvet Last Supper with the extra dinner guest, who looks suspiciously ... like Elvis, holding a deep fried turkey drumstick. Who'da thunk that Art and Fuzziness would go so perfectly well together?


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## coach61 (Sep 6, 2004)

Joe,

I think you did get a raw deal, so when I get my bottom in gear and setup the big track I plan on only buying my 18" from you. My Way of saying thanks for leading the pack. Mind you I am kind of a like a dog and stay pretty loyal. Plus I do enjoy bucking the system appeals to my grumpy side...(Even my Grand-daughter calls me grumpy lol).


Coach


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## Slott V (Feb 3, 2005)

*Extreme banking*

Hey gang-
I just browsed through this thread in a rush but Rick (Hornet) wanted me to post some pictures of the banked turns on my 17 year old track. I saw this post during the week but didn't want to jump in because my banked turns are pretty extreme. I have TJet '67 Camaro with silicones front and rear that will make it around but just barely. The banked turns on my track are the main reason my group has never realy ventured into AFX racing or TJets. So many guys have approached me to get involved in Fary and Nitro races but I have very limited cars for this and can't practice any way. There is one member in our group that does have a track without banked turns so occasionally we'll race AFX/Magna's.

My track is all Tyco except for the banked turns which are Tomy. Originally the corner in the mountain range was flat but in the final design went to banks. Some may think you could go balls out through these banked sections but not the case. You have to drive them. The banking actually upsets the handling of the car a bit, especially as you get into the lower lanes.

That needle is pointing to 50°! Geez, no wonder I can't run those TJets! We also finally measured the mountain peak when I moved ther track: 5' 6" tall. Know of any other HO tracks with a mountain peak that tall?










Drivers View:  









Here you can see the thin veneer wood strips (paneling reversed) that curve into the angled blocks and allow the track to naturally form the curve into the mountain.










Cross section of the seperated high-banks/mountain area module when the track was moved in 2004. (The track was originally built in 4 modules)










Gives you some idea how high the banked turns are;










You wouldn't believe the trouble I went to to dig up this old relic. I had to hunt down the old FTP info for my website. (Hey at least I have it now...) This is a great method for banked turn supports:










-Scott


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Thanks for digging up your pic's Scott,i like your support system,and figured other guys would like to take a look at your ideas on track support for a banked turn.
How many wobbly pops do we have to send your way,for you to dig up your old tips :wave: 
Scott's got some good tips here on his tech site,for anybody interested. :thumbsup: 

http://www.supervipersystems.com/VargoSpeedway/HO_Tech/ho_tech.html


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

AfxToo said:


> Joe, yeah I guess you did end up doing some advanced R&D and market research for Racemasters, for free. That's a raw deal because they appeared to be dormant on the new track front, until of course, you stirred them up with your product that was widely popular.


 I want to thank all the guys who have, or will, buy the tracks we made.
The good thing for us is that almost all the 18" curves we made have sold. At least we have made our money back on them. If I end up keeping the 200+ that I have left, it won't be a big deal. The really bad part is that you can really start to make some money on the second and subsequent run because the first run has to pay off the mold cost. Now we'll never get that opportunity and therefore the money which would have gotten turned over into new track pieces just won't be there.

Joe


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## neophytte (Sep 14, 2006)

Grandcheapskate said:


> I want to thank all the guys who have, or will, buy the tracks we made.


I bought 2, and another guy from our group bought 2 - I know it's no consulation to the bitter pill you had to swallow, but your track made it to the most remote city in the world 

Cheers

Richard


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## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)

I got my local hobby shop to order quite a few of the 18" turns. I think I used 10 on my track -- I'd have ta go and count -- and I know he ordered several more and sold thru them pretty quick. :thumbsup: 

He hadn't even heard about them until I started bugging him about it and I heard about it through this BB.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

Joe's T-18s were a big hit and caused more than a few people to recast their layouts to incorporate the new pieces. The best one I saw was a track that could be converted from a road course to an oval by replacing two track pieces. The conversion took less than 30 seconds. In the oval configuration the outside lanes used Joe's 18s. The oval configuration was wildly popular with the kids and old farts as well for box stock hardbody racing. The magnet speedsters loved the 18s in the road course configuration as well because you felt like superman being able to power hard through the big sweepers. 

Plenty of good times were had on those track pieces. So, Thank You Joe.


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