# Low-Cost ESCs - Novak Please Respond



## BSRBOY (Nov 11, 2009)

I'm curious what everyone's thoughts are on the ESCs offered at www.hobbyking.com. After browsing their web-site quick this morning I found $100 ESC / motor combo kits that include a hand-held programmer. Granted these parts are coming from China (most likely) - but I'm curious what Novak (or LRP - or any other major name ESC mfg) would have to say about these products.

It seems to me that a $100 combo kit that can run sensored / sensorless is a pretty sweet deal. The only thing that comes close (for cost and functionality) is what Castle Creations offers - and I suspect their motors are also coming from China. In contrast to Castle and other "no name" mfgs - Novak and Tekin sell their product at a premium price - so are the hobbyists actually getting a better product for their money? The same could be asked of the low-cost LiPo batteries coming from overseas. Many people have had success with Hobby King LiPo batteries, which sell for 50% the cost of "name brand" packs.

A decade or two ago, before the world wide web came about, it was tough, if not impossible, to compare what Novak / Tekin / LRP offered, to anything else around the world. In contrast, today, hobbyists have companies like EZRun and the Hobby King 'store brand' that are much cheaper and seem to maintain the same functionality.

Are they comparable products? Or are they in fact "cheap" junk? Novak - I'd be interested in your thoughts. This is a good opportunity to remind the RC community why buying American makes sense.


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## ta_man (Apr 10, 2005)

I'm not Novak but I'm going to say something.

The main difference (and I realize this doesn't apply to every prodcut) that I see is that for the Chinese stuff you buy from a Chinese vendor, you have essentially no warranty and support. If one of their products goes bad, assuming they will actually do anything, you could spend as much getting service as buying another one.

Yes, Castle motors are made in China (at a Castle-owned factory), but you are dealing with an American company.

Two examples from personal experience:

1) Friend bough a Caster RTR 1/8th scale with a Chinese ESC and motor. Motor runs hot, had problems with ESC, but nothing he can do about it. He bought a Tekin system and it is all good

2) I bought some of the Hobby City LiFe packs to try. After 3 months, they puffed, for no reason I could come up with (including two that were mostly sitting with 50% charge). Others report the same situation. Nothing can be done: once the packs are used, there is no warranty.

On the other hand, I've got some good LiPos from Hobby City (and I'd buy more if it weren't for the 8 guage wire coming out the end). But if they weren't so good I would have the same situation as with the LiFe packs.

For American manufactured products you are paying more for the American labor. But you are also paying for the American support. That is part of the price of the product. Some people believe it is worth it, others don't


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## BSRBOY (Nov 11, 2009)

Insightful and fair enough. I was hoping to get some input from a mfg on how they see things. So far: no takers.

What I find odd is that an imported product can STILL be cheaper than something made locally, after taxes and whatever international fees are applied. For a labor intensive product like a RTR truck or car kit, yes, I see where the cost delta comes from. But for motors and ESCs that have GOT to be manufactured by an automated assembly line...it should all come down to materials cost, no?

As far as the cost of support / warranty - that is a tangible worth considering. But if you can buy 2 systems from China for the cost of one US system, you could have a 50% failure rate and still come out even...

I can't help but wonder what the true markup on U.S. hobby electronics is...


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## NovakTwo (Feb 8, 2006)

Thanks for starting the discussion. I also believe that it is important to understand why US made items can be more costly. I have prepared a short list:

US MFG prices include:

...original, innovative designs
...quality materials
...timely, phone/email/tech support
...forum support
...race support (prizes, attendance)
...availability of accessories, service items
...fast replacement/exchange programs
...manufacturing in US (high OH and labor)

Most of these points are pretty self-explanatory, so I will only address a few.

R&D/design of innovative electronics is very costly, but the Chinese mfgs simply copy either entire designs, or various circuits/features from American proprietary designs. When we examine these knock-offs, we can identify entire segments, and discrete components, that we designed, tested and sourced. It's much easier to copy if the K-O company does not have to spend months sourcing the perfect component to make the circuitry work. We designed the first MOSFET esc for model cars (early '80s) and the first sensored BL motors. Extremely costly for us---R&D, proto-typing, tooling, testing, manufacturing etc.

As for materials, many Chinese escs use cheap plastic for their casing and programming boxes. Our cases are sturdy---I don't remember any reports of either broken cases or cases falling off in use. We design our products to be customer repairable, to save returns back to the factory. Our Ballistic motor is the best example, but our escs are also fixable--input harness, switches, fans, cap modules. Best of all: _these service parts are always available_.

We maintain two comprehensive Trade/Upgrade programs so that Novak customers can always trade old (burnt-up) items for the newest technology. We have a RMF store so that customers have access to bargains with new factory warranties. In this store, we offer a number of affordable items including 97.99 Club Combos---prices competitive with Chinese imports. We also provide customized equipment and support to USVTA, which has incorporated our electronics into their series.

We have been promoting and offering prizes and support to various segments of R/C racing for thirty-three years---longer than any other mfg in our product segment. Even though offering all of these programs and support is extremely expensive, I understand that many of these things may not be important to purchasers of R/C electronics.


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## NovakTwo (Feb 8, 2006)

I can't speak for others, but labor costs and over-head relating to mfg in the US are extremely high. The relatively small volume of any one item means hand assembly, not automated. We have robotic pick and place machines, but most of the assembly and all testing is performed by people. And working conditions---American workers would not accept either the pay or environment found in Chinese factories.

Same with motor assembly and all phases of work in process testing. Don't underestimate the amount of labor dedicated to both customer service and technical support; the wages of all non-mfg employees must be included in the price of the finished product: engineers, programmers, accounting, marketing, management, sales, CS, tech support, team/race management.



BSRBOY said:


> Insightful and fair enough. I was hoping to get some input from a mfg on how they see things. So far: no takers.
> 
> What I find odd is that an imported product can STILL be cheaper than something made locally, after taxes and whatever international fees are applied. For a labor intensive product like a RTR truck or car kit, yes, I see where the cost delta comes from. But for motors and ESCs that have GOT to be manufactured by an automated assembly line...it should all come down to materials cost, no?
> 
> ...


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## BSRBOY (Nov 11, 2009)

I must admit, my outlook going into this discussion was very different than it is right now. NovakTwo - your point about the Chinese companies ripping off US suppliers ESPECIALLY makes sense. 

As an engineer I've worked with companies like Eaton. They will NOT do business with certain Chinese / Japanese auto manufacturers because they KNOW that their technology will get stolen. Sound familiar?

Considering the support Novak and other companies provide to the race community it seems pretty clear what the "right" thing to do is.

If I buy a brushless system in the near future it will be US made and mfg'd. All the K-O companies can go hungry.

I wonder if the same logic applies to LiPo batteries? (I thought even the "domestic" batteries are imported from overseas anyway - is that true?)


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## nutz4rc (Oct 14, 2003)

The Chinese companies do not respect US Patents or laws. You see them making clones of items that had a lot of development by US companies. They copy them and thus avoid the cost of early testing and corrections made as they are used and re-evaluated by the originators. The clones then use the the final product and there cost is reduced. 

I tried one of the "other systems" it failed at a low temperature, with little stress, and no obvious reason. I still have it in a box to remind me of why I will not buy again.

I will pay more for a better product and support. My $.02 and IMO


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## racin17 (Sep 24, 2008)

in general you get what you pay for!!!!


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## Lohrr1 (Aug 24, 2003)

The simple answer is that if you care about the future of our hobby, then support the american companies that support us . . . if you don't care about the future of our hobby, then buy the knockoffs.
If it wasn't for the development, innovation, research, etc of the american companies like Novak, Tekin(and many others) the overseas companies wouldn't have anything to copy. The support we get from the American mfg is second to none and greatly appreciated


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## BSRBOY (Nov 11, 2009)

Lohrr - I see your point. But for some that's not always possible. Look at how many low-cost "me too" companies there are. Flip through an issue of RC Driver or Radio Controlled Car Acation - there's a TON of knock off companies that may be the only thing some can afford. But they do nothing for the local race scene. It's frustrating.

It bothers me too that companies like Associated and Losi have sold out to off-shore brands.

I don't think it comes down to "do you care" so much as "what can you afford"

But like I already said, my mind is made up. And I can afford plenty.


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## titan29 (Mar 6, 2011)

Sounds like I'll be sticking with my Novak Products:thumbsup:


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## nitrolegend (Dec 1, 2005)

Yes there American companys but where are there parts made ? I dont like knocking american products but EVERY american company supports overseas some how.I would bet either there tools,some equipment or raw material was imported. What type computer are you typing on ? What type of TV are you watching ? Just something to think about. I was stationed overseas and let me tell you theres alot of rebadgeing that goes on by this i mean that alot of stuff is made in one factory with different labels put on them and shipped to the states.
For what its worth I have raced the 1/18 scale EZ Run systems and have had zero problems. Im a disabled vet aand cant afford to spend 1/4 of my pay on a name. JMO


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## brettweir78 (Apr 11, 2010)

As a union member I try to buy american any time I can. My electronics are Tekin and Novak. My cars are Losi, Associated, and Calandra Racing. My question is for the manufacturers, What are you having made over seas? I know Novak had some issues with the "Made in America" claim a few years ago. It was due to imported parts.I am sure all the others have the same problems. I understand that there are a lot of things we cannot buy that are made in the US. Just make sure you try. 

Buy American the job you save may be your own


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## NovakTwo (Feb 8, 2006)

I have addressed this before, but the way the _California Court ruling interpreted "Made in USA"_ meant that absolutely nothing in the product could be made/sourced outside the US. Most manufacturers cannot know exactly where each component is fabricated---so even using a foreign made .00025 cent transistor, heat shrink, solder, cardboard, etc would make any product sold in CA (and marked "Made in USA") in violation of the court ruling. So, we had to change all packaging, printed materials and web-site and refund money to any customer who felt we had "defrauded" him by using the phrase. 

As for manufacturing, we do not import finished goods (except our brush, Crawler, Sagami-mfg motors) from China; we do have many sub-assemblies made there (in different factories), but all final assembly and testing (of both escs and BL motors) is done here in our Irvine facility. There are many components which can no longer be sourced in the US because they are only mfg in Asia.


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## Lohrr1 (Aug 24, 2003)

brettweir78 said:


> As a union member I try to buy american any time I can. My electronics are Tekin and Novak. My cars are Losi, Associated, and Calandra Racing. My question is for the manufacturers, What are you having made over seas? I know Novak had some issues with the "Made in America" claim a few years ago. It was due to imported parts.I am sure all the others have the same problems. I understand that there are a lot of things we cannot buy that are made in the US. Just make sure you try.
> 
> Buy American the job you save may be your own


:thumbsup:
even though some of the components might be from overseas, the R&D, customer support, racer support, mfg support at the races(including door prizes), etc comes from the american mfg as opposed to someone copying all the work that these mfg have spent so much time & money developing and getting a free ride from someone elses work and not being there to support us


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## NovakTwo (Feb 8, 2006)

nitrolegend said:


> I was stationed overseas and let me tell you theres alot of rebadgeing that goes on by this i mean that alot of stuff is made in one factory with different labels put on them and shipped to the states.
> *For what its worth I have raced the 1/18 scale EZ Run systems and have had zero problems. Im a disabled vet aand cant afford to spend 1/4 of my pay on a name. JMO*


We do not have a service-member program; however, we have a number of programs that serve the same goal. Our major budget-friendly offering is our unique RMF Store, where many products are offered at deep discount---all with new factory warranties. Check out our prices. No one should need to purchase cheap Chinese-mfg electronics, when our RMF items are backed by all of our customer service, race support and Trade-In programs I listed in the OP.

There is a reason the OP asked "Novak" to respond---not Castle, Tekin, LRP or EZ-run---because I could be counted on to comment.


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## KnR-Racing99 (Nov 6, 2009)

*It's tough to buy strictly American these days. The average American worker makes sometimes 3 to 4 times higher wages that their overseas counter part. That makes that $4 product cost $10 to $12 if made in America. I support the good ol USA whenever possible but got to watch the budget also.:thumbsup:*


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## brettweir78 (Apr 11, 2010)

I did not intend to suggest that Novak products are made overseas. I prefer them because they are "made here". More and more companies are sending the manufacturing to china. When I find one that hasn't I try to support them. Thank you and keep up the good work.


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## BSRBOY (Nov 11, 2009)

What's important is that companies like Novak have given us the RC industry as we know it. They support the hobbyists and the race scene. How many of us have been bailed out by a tech at a national event? Or had pro advice from sponsored drivers? I don't see that from the knock-off companies. They want one thing: your cash. Then you're S.O.L if things go wrong

Again I say - I'll support the people that support my people.


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## bojo (May 6, 2002)

You cant get people to work for 2.25 a hour. like over seas. 



quote=NovakTwo;3706217]I can't speak for others, but labor costs and over-head relating to mfg in the US are extremely high. The relatively small volume of any one item means hand assembly, not automated. We have robotic pick and place machines, but most of the assembly and all testing is performed by people. And working conditions---American workers would not accept either the pay or environment found in Chinese factories.

Same with motor assembly and all phases of work in process testing. Don't underestimate the amount of labor dedicated to both customer service and technical support; the wages of all non-mfg employees must be included in the price of the finished product: engineers, programmers, accounting, marketing, management, sales, CS, tech support, team/race management.[/quote]


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