# Tycopro buttons heating up



## bobwoodly (Aug 25, 2008)

Guys,

I've been fooling around with some TycoPro button chassis. I've had to rewire them - used conductive silver epoxy instead of solder on the buttons and connected them directly to the brush tubes with shunts. The car runs fine but I find the buttons are getting hot (as does the motor). Suggestions as to what to troubleshoot? My test track is a lifelike track with a wall wart.

Thanks!


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## joegri (Feb 13, 2008)

i cant speak as a pro , hoever the tyco pro,s i have run cool as november at 16 volts it,s posible too much voltage!!! i,m just sayin.


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

bobwoodly said:


> Suggestions as to what to troubleshoot?


The epoxied connections, because they should be soldered. You could tell for sure if do a load test across the "glued" points and see what kind of voltage drop you get.


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## bobwoodly (Aug 25, 2008)

SwamperGene said:


> The epoxied connections, because they should be soldered. You could tell for sure if do a load test across the "glued" points and see what kind of voltage drop you get.


I was wondering about that. I've used it before in slightly different way (and less of it) without any heating issues. Is the the conductive silver epoxy serving as a capacitor? How does it differ from solder as a conductive material? As you can see my knowledge here is limited. Thanks!


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

bobwoodly said:


> I was wondering about that. I've used it before in slightly different way (and less of it) without any heating issues. Is the the conductive silver epoxy serving as a capacitor? How does it differ from solder as a conductive material? As you can see my knowledge here is limited. Thanks!


Solder is made up entirely of conductive material (flux burns out), electrically conductive epoxies (and greases, etc) are made with microscopic bits of conductive material mixed into the base material. Electrically, it creates a resistor. If you look at various data sheets for these epoxies the "quality" could be determined by the resistance listed, and that number could come from the wet (lower) or dried (higher) data.

By design it would have a small electrical cross-section, thus could only safely carry small currents. Imagine a pile of BB's, each one is only touching the next by a pinpoint.


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## twolff (May 11, 2007)

I never got as far as soldering a shunt wire to the button barrel. The buttons are supposed to spin and I figured that they would wear a groove in the face of the button and wear out in no time. I've gotten the button chassis to run, but not consistently. The inconsistency in speed can be considered "tire wear effect". We only run 'em for fun anyway.

FWIW: They do have to be very clean to run w/o stopping or stuttering severley. When clean and adjusted (as much as they can be) usually by gentley bending the chassis plate tab to set the front ride height they run as I described above.


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## joegri (Feb 13, 2008)

hey swampa g bob did mention wallwart so my theory of too much voltage is off? i always thought warts were 22 volts.i,m just sayin.


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## bobwoodly (Aug 25, 2008)

*Thanks*



SwamperGene said:


> The epoxied connections, because they should be soldered. You could tell for sure if do a load test across the "glued" points and see what kind of voltage drop you get.





SwamperGene said:


> Solder is made up entirely of conductive material (flux burns out), electrically conductive epoxies (and greases, etc) are made with microscopic bits of conductive material mixed into the base material. Electrically, it creates a resistor. If you look at various data sheets for these epoxies the "quality" could be determined by the resistance listed, and that number could come from the wet (lower) or dried (higher) data.
> 
> By design it would have a small electrical cross-section, thus could only safely carry small currents. Imagine a pile of BB's, each one is only touching the next by a pinpoint.


Thanks for the note. I never gave it much thought but I guess the stuff is designed for extremely low voltage situations? I thought it would be a good solution in tight spaces like Tyco Pro pickup buttons where soldering is difficult.


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

joegri said:


> hey swampa g bob did mention wallwart so my theory of too much voltage is off? i always thought warts were 22 volts.i,m just sayin.


HO wall warts and power packs are all over the place in the voltage department. I had a box full that ranged from 14 to as high as 24. I could be wrong but I think most LifeLike are around 18? The car should run fine on any available stock-type wall wart.



bobwoodly said:


> Thanks for the note. I never gave it much thought but I guess the stuff is designed for extremely low voltage situations? I thought it would be a good solution in tight spaces like Tyco Pro pickup buttons where soldering is difficult.


The voltage isn't the issue, it's the amount of current vs the type of conductor.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

I was just looking up the properties of some of these conductive epoxies and they do in-fact create nice little resistors, and ones that are not insignificant for the conditions we are concerned with. The ones I saw were in the 4-6 ohm range, which is close to the resistance of the motor windings.

When I feel heat in a motor the next things I always check for are binding in the drive train, bushings that need oil, and motor brushes that are too tight.


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

*It could be useful.....*

Put some in a little tube and label it "High Performance Comm Paste"...prominently display it in your pit space by all your go-fast stuff, and tell your competitors they're welcome to use it. 

Works best if you apply it _right _before the race. :thumbsup:


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

*Spark-a-saurus*

No two ways about it, the darn button pick ups are icky. That's the technical term anyway. Immediate euthenasia required.

1. Poor contact patch (half what it should be) and doesnt use all of that lesser amount anyway. See below.

2. Virtually unadjustable or serviceable: (unless you quick swap the entire module)

3. Overly complicated (the intermediate contact surface is of poor design) Most all HO slots have a second moving contact that is often forgotten. Modern inlines have the intermediate contact someplace around the brush barrell and they are easy to clean. Pancakes have a shoe hook... yada yada. It was the beauty of the earlier Tyco "foil" or Riggen type setup (IMHO). Adapted from the bigboys, 1/24 & 1/32; it eliminated that extra piece of monkey motion with potentially hidden resistance. 

4. Impossible to clean: (unless you baptize them in tarnex)

5. Geometry compromised: (they dont skim) Forever "toed", they drag along canted in the holder in the "lame" position, like a stick jammed in yer sway bar. This does not optimize the contact patch. In addition, and perhaps more importantly, the buttons are in a state of continuous bind on their barrels created by the force of forward motion. This preload on the buttons horizontal axis compromises the intended up and down float of the buttons on the vertical axis. As the speed increases, the added force causes the buttons to react slower as they attempt to respond to variations in rail height. This makes them surly in general and down right cantankerous when they encounter anything but skookum rail joints, due to the fact that they are leading with severe toe and slow to respond. The faster you go the tighter and lighter things get in the front end till you snag a joint. Under hard acceleration the chassis front lifts, the tail squats, the buttons bind hard, any contact travel is stiffened up right about the time you really need it to float the nose down into the slot. Sorta like ya yer highcentered on compacted snow in a big car. 

It's little wonder that these glorified sparklers might generate some heat. In practice, I always found that the button cars always got warmer, and got there faster than foiled or braided set ups. With the added resistance of magic epoxy and the Tyco button syndrome in general, I'm not surprised that there's some heat build. After a good hard run the silly buttons will sizzle your thumb on the best of days.

Admittedly I long ago traded all of my button units off in frustration and disgust because I couldnt get what I wanted from them. Some times it best to just walk away. HOWEVER!, since Jeeper posted his nifty Tyco pick up mods/conversions AND this recent posting. I've given some thought to the idea that you could snife off the buttons, let the springs fly away and thread a piece of braid up through the hole and fold it back.

Should a Sparkasaurus cross my path again, I'll give it some house room and attempt to bring it back from extinction via a braid adaptation....just for giggles.


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## bobwoodly (Aug 25, 2008)

*Bought the right stuff*

Swamper Gene you advice shamed me into buying the right soldering iron and associated stuff. My new iron has a nice tiny tip that allows soldering in tight places and so far so good. Thanks for letting me know my band aid was not going to work!

Tom


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

bobwoodly said:


> Swamper Gene you advice shamed me into buying the right soldering iron and associated stuff. My new iron has a nice tiny tip that allows soldering in tight places and so far so good. Thanks for letting me know my band aid was not going to work!
> 
> Tom


Anytime Tom, hope it works for ya 
.


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

We have a big pile of soldering info some where around here...

The more ya do it the better ya get at it. With practice I've become somewhat marginal and I'm not near as horrible at it as I used to be.

If your not comfortable Tom, snip up some small sacrificial stock and take some batting practice.


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## slotcarman12078 (Oct 3, 2008)

I can tell you this much. Do the practice thing first! If you have a totally junk chassis to mess with, try soldering on that first. You will want the iron as hot as possible, and you will more than likely want heat sinks at the very least. Hot enough to melt solder is more than hot enough to melt plastic.


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## twolff (May 11, 2007)

I you are extending broken stock shunt wires, then there shouldn't be many problems with the soldering. A shot or two of your favorite can help steady the hands.

If you want the cars to RUN to their potential then get a few guide flags for wipers. Greg Braun sells replacement wipers http://www.hoslotcarracing.com/

Soldering shunt wires to the wipers is snap and done before they are installed in the guide flag so you don't have to worry about nuking the plastic parts.


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## slotnewbie69 (Dec 3, 2008)

i converted my button chassis to braids,thereby reducing the amount of connections the current travels through.my next step will be to solder shunts directly to the brush barrels.i dunno why they weren't braided to begin with...


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## grungerockjeepe (Jan 8, 2007)

Bill Hall said:


> Admittedly I long ago traded all of my button units off in frustration and disgust because I couldnt get what I wanted from them. Some times it best to just walk away. HOWEVER!, since Jeeper posted his nifty Tyco pick up mods/conversions AND this recent posting. I've given some thought to the idea that you could snife off the buttons, let the springs fly away and thread a piece of braid up through the hole and fold it back.


Funny you mention that, Bill. I recently snagged some Riggen's off of the Bay for fairly reasonable prices. I had to re-do the guide flags and I got photos of a start to finish Riggen resto. I show how I re-furb the wipers as well as convert to braids. I have some tycpros on the way too with some similar ideas on how to re-do those as well. Stay tuned. I have a half baked idea on ditching the buttons for braids. Actually, it'll be my 2nd attempt.

But I agree, the buttons units are garbage. What you forgot to mention is that the spring tension is entirely too strong and raises up the front end of the cars like the auto-jacks on the Mach 5. The real bad thing is, I know of no way to adjust them.


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## slotnewbie69 (Dec 3, 2008)

i fooled with mine to the point i put a big blob of my kids plasticene on the flag,and that crushed the springs.thing never ran right though.so i ripped out the buttons,and pushed some old artin braids through the ferrules,and soldered the shunt wires to the brush barrels.a little messy,but next time i will use your hotglue method and save the mess


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## bobwoodly (Aug 25, 2008)

*Braid alternative?*

Ok I've switched to soldering and it's going okay. I'm trying a technique similar to braided wire but not quite. 

The chassis with the red wires I swapped out some pickups (from god knows what brand) I had floating around that were of upbraided wire and it seems to work better than anything else I've tried. On the second chassis with black/white wire I used used a loop of stranded wire glued to the pickup. So far it also works well. Next time I'll try a couple of loops for better wire density. Still need to fashion a weight for the pickups on the second chassis and secure the guide pin.

I've also tried braids but the material I had was too firm and is not working as well as the stranded wire is (so far).



















Tom


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## bobwoodly (Aug 25, 2008)

*Retainer for pickup guide*

I found a way to retain the pickup guide. I cut open a small wire nut like the attached pic and a bit of the wire small end made a nice snug but removable retainer. I have a washer for a weight and I'm ready to go!


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## TjetBill (May 8, 2010)

Necessity is the mother of invention. Nice job inventing the retainer! :thumbsup:


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## slotnewbie69 (Dec 3, 2008)

cool to see other guys here trying these conversions!i will tear mine down again and do a cleaner job.


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## resinmonger (Mar 5, 2008)

Thanks for the great info. Several button chassis will be given a second chance now.


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## slotnewbie69 (Dec 3, 2008)

hey hutt!long time no read!nice to see ya back on the boards!


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