# Questions about the 1/350 Enterprise *master*.



## Otto69 (Jan 2, 2004)

I periodically find pictures of the master of this being developed. It's always grey, taped up, etc. but still looks just top drawer. My question as a longtime kit builder but newbie scratch builder is:

1. what is the saucer made of, and how did you build up the shapes? Is this some sort of CAM buildup, or is it made by hand?

2. if these things are made from a mold, who made the master for the mold and what is IT made of? 

3. are there any pictures of it unprimed where we can see how it was made more?

Thanks much!


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## cobywan (Oct 27, 2001)

1. What we saw was photos of a urethane resin casting. What the original was made of was probably a meterial like Ren Shape. A pattern makers material that is quasi-foam like. It works just like basswood in traditional patternmaking but without the problems wood has with grain. For these simple forms hand work is the easiest way to approach this ship. (I had given a lot of thought as to the best way to pattern the Refit Enterprise for a scratch build project.)

2. The mold for the casting is, almost certainly, silicone rubber. Once you have the outside form you then can build up a wall thickness and incorporate internal structures into it. (All of this is moot if the molds were CNC manufactured. The shapes can be cut into alluminum blocks for test shots.)

3. I couldn't tell you that.


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## Otto69 (Jan 2, 2004)

Ahh, thanks, that clears it up for me. I've been sitting here looking at what iI thoght were masters and wondering how they got that nice smooth finish on them using hand formed plastics. Why, they almost look like resin .


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

Ummm... exactly what are you guys talking about?

The 1/350th refit?

If so the latest pics are simply styrene. The molds were cut into aluminum I believe.

The second run of the "master" has been sent to Paramount. As soon as they approve it production can begin, according to Thomas.

For the latest pics see here:
http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=95128

For the most comprehensive info see here:
http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=95362 

and here:
http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=81793


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## cobywan (Oct 27, 2001)

You're off track. The "master", or rather prototype, was the grey parts from the first batch of photos.

The parts you are talking about are test shots of the production mold.


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

Otto,
The pics of the master were _not_ of a resin casting. It was the one and only original shape created for proofing the kit design. It was milled and hand shaped from ABS, styrene, and a form of resin, but was not molded until the mock up was proofed and approved.










After approval, each shape was 'molded' with an industrial epoxy to serve as a template for milling the steel tools. The master is ripped out of the epoxy molds completely destroying it. RTV rubber never touches the master at any stage.

The initial master has very little value when compared with the whole project and is only the first step in completing the goal which is a functional steel tool for production use.

I gotta stop. My eyes are welling with tears....


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

But at least you got to hold her before she died....


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

^^^As always, thanks for the in depth info Thomas. I was pretty sure that the taped together parts were the first test shots from the incompletely cut steel tool.

Also glad to hear that PL invested in a steel rather then a less expensive aluminum mold.

Now get back to work on that 1/350th TOS E!!!

I know PL may or may not have chosen it as the next 1/350th and that you, unfortunately don't get to chose the order of the subject selection. But it wouldn't hurt to have a prototype finished and ready to ship on your shelf.


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## cobywan (Oct 27, 2001)

So the one and only master was shipped back and forth from and to China? Talk about playing with fire. ANYTHING could have happend to that valuable pattern.


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

Chuck_P.R. said:


> Now get back to work on that 1/350th TOS E!!!


Chuck, you might as well drive a stake in my heart, than to keep making me think that the 1/350 TOS E is coming. :devil:


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

Lloyd Collins said:


> Chuck, you might as well drive a stake in my heart, than to keep making me think that the 1/350 TOS E is coming. :devil:


I think the powers that were/are at PL making the subject selection aren't smart enough to have Thomas do the 1/350th TOS Enterprise as their next 1/350th.

They are more concerned with trying to prove something by sticking to bad subject selection decisions then they are concerned about giving us the most logical, popular and wanted subject as the next 1/350th.

So I don't see a 1/350th TOS E coming anytime soon from PL.
Putting it ahead in their "master plan" might be seen as fixing a mistake.
Can't have that!

However, PL isn't the only company with a Trek license.
Perhaps if they ruin any chance of proving Trek's profitability to RC2 by continuing with decisions like putting the Scorpion ahead of the most popular Trek subject in the history of the franchise - the TOS Enterprise, and the RC2 shuts them down because of poor sales... Then perhaps some other company with a Trek license like Master Replicas will be willing to cash in and produce the TOS E in 1/350th.

Wouldn't hurt for a certain person to have a master ready to roll either way.


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## Storvick (Jan 21, 2003)

problem with master replicas is does everyone want to pay $300-$400 for a trek kit from them? Their phasers go for as low as $150. I can find better phasers from other places that charge less then they do.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

Storvick said:


> problem with master replicas is does everyone want to pay $300-$400 for a trek kit from them? Their phasers go for as low as $150. I can find better phasers from other places that charge less then they do.


The ironic thing is that the Refit will probably sell like the dickens and create a TREMENDOUS ANTICIPATORY DEMAND for a 1/350th TOS Enterprise.

Then, if PL's Trek line folds before they are smart enough to stop sitting on their hands and make the TOS Enterprise in 1/350th they could end up seeing *EXACTLY THAT HAPPENING!*

No one *wants* to pay $300-400 dollars for a kit when they could have been paying $50-60 bucks to Polar Lights.

But if PL's marketers continue to play it "cute" and out-think themselves and continue to put off *the most wanted subject* they could very well likely see themselves loosing all that potential profit as someone else *who is smart enough to do the obvious* beats them to the punch.

They might go defunct and end up seeing someone else making money hand over fist on the model they *refused* to cash in on.

Sometimes the most *obvious* decision *is* the *best* one.

*Come on Polar Lights!* Stop being afraid of building the model that everyone really wants! *Stop out-thinking yourself!* It is okay to change your mind, make your customers happy, and make tons more profit! *No one will be at all upset and you will make more profit!*

*If you let this chance to produce a 1/350th TOS E slip away because of pride - that will truly be an unforgivable sin!!!*


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

^^^Nevermind. I keep forgetting... 

Dave's unlikely to change his mind and may have no authority to change plans anyway. Besides him, it's unlikely that anyone else at PL/RC2 even knows this forum exists...


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

Chuck_P.R. said:


> No one *wants* to pay $300-400 dollars for a kit when they could have been paying $50-60 bucks to Polar Lights.


 Or worse - pay $1300 for a prefinished replica that's never delivered.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

Trek Ace said:


> Or worse - pay $1300 for a prefinished replica that's never delivered.


Yep!

That was sad. But I don't see it impossible that a year or so in the future, after Polar Lights has dragged butt long enough to have the Trek line shut down, that some other modelmaker or even GK manufacturer comes out with one that easily sells for many times what PL would have sold them for -- had they had the good sense to put them into production.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

The Scorpion's probably too far along to stop now, but the decision to make the next 1/1000 kit the NX is just ... dissapointing.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

John P said:


> The Scorpion's probably too far along to stop now, but the decision to make the next 1/1000 kit the NX is just ... dissapointing.


Agreed. With the exception of the Refit, it's as if the people making PL's subject decisions are hell bent on giving us all the stuff we couldn't care less about first. Cram that down our throats, then eventually they'll get around to selling the stuff everyone *REALLY WANTS*.

God forbid they make a decision that doesn't make us say, "why the hell would they try and sell us _*that*_ before doing a 1/350th TOS E?"

The most obvious and simplest choice is often the best. It's not rocket science. If anyone at PL has any sense they'll make the 1/350th TOS E while they still can. It's as if they are determined to stick to a failed decision to avoid making what would be the most popular Trek kit in history!


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## cobywan (Oct 27, 2001)

Not everybody has the same point of view as you on the subject. Most of my friends and I are of the opinion that the Refit is the one and only Starfleet vessel worthy of the 1/350th scale treatment.


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## LGFugate (Sep 11, 2000)

While I, too, would prefer a 1/350th scale TOS Enterprise, it gets a bit hard to take reading every day how everyone in the world wants one so badly, and that PL is going to go under because they "made the wrong decision" in making the Scorpion and making the NX-01 the next 1/1000th scale kit. 


Sorry, fellows, but just because that's what YOU want doesn't make EVERYONE want that, too. Sure, the 1/1000th TOS E's flew off the shelves in most stores (I haven't seen one in Illinois for months), but a 1/350th kit selling for $50-$70 dollars is NOT going to be as popular! Distributors will buy them, and sell them to hobby shops and chains, but your average Joe isn't gonna bite. I've seen many people pick up the 1/350th NX-01 in fascination, then put it down suddenly when they get to the price tag. At my local HobbyLobby, they have over a dozen each of the BIG Revellogram B-1s, B-36s, B-29's, and some other large-scale planes. I've never seen anyone outside of a 12-year old kid stop to look at them. Why? Too complex, and too expensive. Even during 50%-off sales! The cheaper, smaller-scale kits of the same subjects sell well, so it's not the subjects that are scaring folks off.

So, please go ahead and make your wants known. I'm interested in all of the ideas that come up in these forums, as they provide input for kit-bashing and such. But please! Don't proclaim the world's wants, or the death of a company just because it suits or doesn't suit your own desires.

Larry

:freak:


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## TrekFX (Apr 15, 2004)

I dissent with the "nobody wants a 1/350 TOS... look at the NX" argument.

Let's face it. I like Enterprise, I like cool ships, and I like BIG cool ships even more. So I bought some NXs.

Let's also face that Enterprise has a FRACTION of the public awareness factor of TOS.

Most people "remember" the TOS E, even if they can't quite put their finger on why they remember. It's just part of the culture, internationally even. I would bet that with a lot less fiddly bits and pretty simple overall shapes, the masters, the molds and the kits would be less expensive. And to the Average Joe, of which I am not one  , it's a simple paint scheme, pretty much monochromatic with decals ya can just slap on if you don't care to paint it.

I smell hotcakes... please pass the syrup.

PS: I concur that the Scorpion... The SCORPION???? A bit-player in a movie that generally disappointed, both critically and box office? I hate to be blunt, but the Kazon Torpedo precedent comes to mind.


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

You know you would think they would know which model to manufacture by which TV series or by which movie is most "watched" or which one made "more money" at the box office. (does this make any sense ?) :dude:


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

There can only be one "original".


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

Trek Ace said:


> There can only be one "original".


Of course ! :thumbsup:


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

I don't think everyone wants everything I want LGFugate.

But the TOS E is by far the most popular Sci-Fi model in history.
Only on this forum among sci-fi modelers was the Refit able to come neck and neck with the TOS E in popularity. Most of the people who made up the votes allowing it to be as or a vote or two more popular then the TOS E stated flatly in past poll threads it was because of the technical prowse ILM showed in building the model.

Among the general population TOS has become a part of our very culture.
Everyone makes Trek jokes these days, but even those who are attempting to laugh at the phenomenon have to admit that if people didn't really like and/or love the show the jokes would be pointless - no one would get the punchlines or even be able to laugh at them.

TOS Trek has had a model of the TOS E sellling off the shelves for most of the last 35 years. People remember it from their childhood. Relate it to fond memories, even if they are not Trekkers.

You just can't compare that kind of popularity to the series "Enterprise."
"Enterprise" has been so poorly written and mishandled that many long-time Trek fans actually *DISLIKE* it! This is not the fault of the cast, and other Trek series have gotten worse and worse. It really began about the fourth year of "Voyager."

I don't mean to get into the minutae of the later series, other then to point out that comparing such a tremendously popular subject as the TOS E to a subject from a series that many long-time Trek fans actually *DISLIKE* is not a valid comparison.

Besides, think of it in terms of how many units can be sold in the time period of PL's ten year contract. Ten years is a *finite time*.

I can see PL selling both the Refit and the TOS E heavily every year all the way to year ten. Meaning that had they done that one or those first they would have been able to both make and sell many many more models. Does anyone see the NX-01 being sold heavily for just as long?

That's tons of lost sales!

I am not saying that it had anything to do with whether or not PL perishes in terms of Trek offerings.

What I do say is that everyone here was told time and time again that PL had to make the kits we really did *not* want(like car kits) to be able to eventually afford to make the kits we really *did* want.

This was repeated time and time again. What I'm saying is that now that the crap has hit the fan, if they don't *now* make those kits *we really wanted* they *may never make them*.

The sad part is that the kit they put off time and again would have made them tons more profit then the NX-01 or any other subject they decide to make after the Refit and before the 1/350th TOS E.

It's as if they are determined to not do it for some reason. A K'Tinga is a good subject, but any other subject in 1/350th after the Refit should have waited their turn behind the 1/350th TOS Enterprise.

Sometimes the obvious decision is the best decision, not just for fans but also for profitability.


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## cobywan (Oct 27, 2001)

ILM didn't build the Refit Enterprise.

How's that carpal tunnel cumming along.


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

this touches some of the points in the "pl's drawing board" thread. these decisions arent arbitrary. theyre influenced by what the distributors are saying to pl, and what the studio is pushing at the moment. for all the bashing of the series enterprise, a lot of the forum members seem to have bought the model. if those sales are indicative of the model building public in general, then its no wonder that the distributors are telling pl to do another nx-01. you also have to realize that if the distributors arent into trek, then to them new is going to trump classic every time. simalrly, for the studio, the original series and its movie incarnations needs no more promotion, but enterprise needs all the exposure it can get. (years ago i had a hookup with an oriental manufacturer, and wanted to do tos uniform shirts for the halloween market. this was years before rubies costume got the license for them, and just after tng had premiered. i called paramount, and was shut down cold, being told that they "werent interested in licensing that property at this time." im sure if that i had been asking about tng jumpsuits or movie style jackets my reception would have been quite different.)

besides, ive never heard anyone from pl say that they arent doing a 1/350 tos e eventually.


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## LGFugate (Sep 11, 2000)

Chuck, you've misunderstood my rant. I'm just dead tired of the constant PL bashing. I'm tired of the RC2 bashing. People have tried, convicted, and executed PL/RC2 with no evidence on the Trek and figure kit issues. (Does anyone here have access to the sales reports from PL?) My example using the NX-01 kit was to show that in general, the *common* person (not you, John, or anyone who frequents this board, as we are avid modelers, not just someone off the street looking for a time killer...) is not interested in an expensive, and complicated model kit. They are not, in general, interested in models like we are, or as people were in the 50's, 60's and 70's. *That* is why the model companies, like Revellogram, RC2, etc., make what they make. They make product that sells, and that sells well. Cars, especially NASCAR cars, sell. Why did TRU pretty much drop models? They don't sell well enough. Sure, *we* bought them when they had them, but if they were selling as well as, say, Hot Wheels, they'd still have them. Same goes for K-Mart and other mass merchandiers who no longer carry models. WalMart carries primarily cars now, and of those, most are NASCAR. Why? They sell, and sell well. That is what their experience tells them. Their customer surveys tell them the same. If the kits we all want were so darned popular, and were guarenteed to sell bunches, don't you think someone else would have jumped into this void that PL is leaving? (The Japanese companies like Bandai and Konami are doing relatively well here in the US, though their license is for Japan and points east...) I'm certain that Paramount and other licensors would grant specific licenses to companies that guaranteed them large, steady incomes from their properties. That's what they exist for, to make lots of money to return to their stockholders.


Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and I'll fight for that right for everyone. I'm just tired of the constant beating of these obviously dead horses. Can't we just build models and anticipate the new kits that *are* coming? If not, I think I'm going to just stop coming here. I'd rather just sit and enjoy the hobby rather than get upset constantly over things I have no control over. Let's talk more about the features of the Refit, how we're going to build, light and display it. Let's talk more about Captain America's faces, and how we can make him look like whichever version we think is the correct one. Let's bash some Klingon D-7s into new varients that Gene Roddenberry never thought of. Let's just have *fun*!

I'm truly sorry if I've offended, but now I've had my say and will shut the hell up.

Larry


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

razorwyre1 said:


> this touches some of the points in the "pl's drawing board" thread. these decisions arent arbitrary. theyre influenced by what the distributors are saying to pl, and what the studio is pushing at the moment.


 Ah, but that's not what Mr Metzner said when we asked "why the Scorpion? Did the studio order it?"

Dave said "Nope. Paramount doesn't tell us which model to do. I just thought it was neat-looking."


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## Mike Warshaw (Feb 23, 1999)

hey, we can second-guess all we want. even amt made a refit and a tos e and a d7 and even the k7, for cryin' out loud. don't we want the model companies to experiment beyond the obvious subjects?

besides, it seems to me the horse has long left this particular barn.


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## LGFugate (Sep 11, 2000)

Not to argue, John, but did Dave have a straight face when he said that? Or was he making a sarcastic comment to hide his irritation at all of the griping going on? Hard to tell on a forum when the person "speaking" doesn't use the smileys.

I'm sure he went to Tom Lowe and said, "Tom, let's make a kit of the Scorpion from Star Trek Nemesis because I think it's neat-looking", and then Tom said, "Sure, why not?  

Larry


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

LGFugate said:


> (Does anyone here have access to the sales reports from PL?) My example using the NX-01 kit was to show that in general, the *common* person (not you, John, or anyone who frequents this board, as we are avid modelers, not just someone off the street looking for a time killer...) is not interested in an expensive, and complicated model kit. They are not, in general, interested in models like we are, or as people were in the 50's, 60's and 70's. *.... *I'm truly sorry if I've offended, but now I've had my say and will shut the hell up.
> 
> Larry


I've taken no offense Larry. We are are here to discuss. That's what I believe we've been doing...



LGFugate said:


> (Does anyone here have access to the sales reports from PL?) My example using the NX-01 kit was to show that in general, the *common* person (not you, John, or anyone who frequents this board, as we are avid modelers, not just someone off the street looking for a time killer...) is not interested in an expensive, and complicated model kit.


But Larry, that's the kind of kit we are discussing. We aren't discussing snap kits but the 1/350th line. A 1/350th scale model. And as Trek Ace has pointed out, the TOS E is a far simpler kit to both manufacture and build then either the NX-01 and I would add the K'Tinga.



LGFugate said:


> My example using the NX-01 kit was to show that in general, the *common* person ... is not interested in an expensive, and complicated model kit. They are not, in general, interested in models like we are, or as people were in the 50's, 60's and 70's. *....*


The people who buy 1/350th scale kits are not the "common person." They aren't the ones walking into Walmart and buying $9.99 snap kits.

The statement: "They are not, in general, interested in models like we are, or as people were in the 50's, 60's and 70's."

is indeed true. How many people under the age of 30 years build models? Under the age of 20 years? I'd say the percentage compared to those over 30 years old is very low.

Unless you've personally taken some survey(you'd need about 200 dealers for it to be a truly representative survey) I'd dispute the claim that dealers are telling PL they want another NX-01. The three hobby shop owners I frequent would jump at the chance and buy tons of TOS subjects. They can't keep the 1/1000th Enterprise in stock.

At the Hobby Hut here in Metairie, Louisiana one of the guys told me they've sold two NX-01's since they came in. Also, when Ertl stopped making Trek models from TNG, Voyager, etc they had inventory almost *TWO YEARS LATER*!

He is buying lots of TOS E's and even a good deal of D-7's even though customers know the D-7 was fudged up at the factory.

He told me if AMT re-releases their old TOS Enterprises and other TOS subjects he'll probably by a half dozen cases of each subject, but he's not at all interested in the newer Trek stuff.

While I only was able to directly asked one other shop worker the same thing(haven't gotten to the one other one in my area), Hub Hobby said basically the exact same thing - they'll buy one or two at a time of the newer stuff, but the TOS stuff is what moves, if AMT ever re-released they would buy multiple cases even if the owner had to stock it at his house(they don't exactly have a lot of room in that store).

As unscientific as that poll is, I seriously doubt dealers were telling PL "don't make any of that older stuff. We just want recent Trek." As John P has pointed out, there are many stores that still have unsold TNG, Voyager, etc inventory. You won't find many that have TOS stuff.

Besides, as John P said above, 


John P said:


> Ah, but that's not what Mr Metzner said when we asked "why the Scorpion? Did the studio order it?"
> 
> Dave said "Nope. Paramount doesn't tell us which model to do. I just thought it was neat-looking."


We've been told time and again that they make these decisions independently.

More importantly, how many times were we told they were making stuff we didn't want to pay for stuff we did want?

Okay, so now that the company's future is questionable, I think that it's time to both make the most profitable 1/350th model they can after the Refit. That would both perhaps convince RC2 to keep the line alive AND give us a kit we really want.

Win-win.


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## Otto69 (Jan 2, 2004)

Well, not that the thread has been effectivey jacked I guess it's unlikely that I might get an answer from a PL rep showing some pics of the original master before it was destroyed? I think the one posted so far is of the reverse mold, not the master?


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

Otto69 said:


> Well, not that the thread has been effectivey jacked I guess it's unlikely that I might get an answer from a PL rep showing some pics of the original master before it was destroyed? I think the one posted so far is of the reverse mold, not the master?


Your best bet is to simply go to the forum that the actual person who made the master owns, Thomas of Thomas Models, along with Capt Locknar of Starfury models.

Make a request in one of the two or so threads he has going there, probably best to make the request in the "sticky(non-moving)" thread at the top of the forum about "Refit Test Shot Preview Pics." Best not to email him as he's way busy right now.

I suggested doing it that way earlier but you must have missed those links.

Here you go: http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/forumdisplay.php?f=99

Since Thomas co-owns that forum he's way more likely to see it.


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

Ugh.

The pic I posted on page 1 is of the inside surface of the saucer top master prior to any molding.

Pics of the original master prior to molding or destruction can be seen here:
http://thomasmodels.com/refitmockup.html
and here:
http://www.thomasmodels.com/refitproof/

These pages and my site are not paid for, supported, or endorsed by RC2 nor ever by Polar Lights. The image are placed there and paid for with my dime. Those pages each have over 2000 unique hits a day. Much more on peak days and times.

Please enjoy them!


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## Otto69 (Jan 2, 2004)

*Thanks Chuck!*

Yes indeed I did miss the earlier post you mention


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

John P said:


> Ah, but that's not what Mr Metzner said when we asked "why the Scorpion? Did the studio order it?"
> 
> Dave said "Nope. Paramount doesn't tell us which model to do. I just thought it was neat-looking."



well the studios never dictate pre se, but they can advocate rather strongly. 

and while yeah the average consumer isnt interested in the 1/350 kits, the nx-01 was still sold at suncoast and lobby hobby. if the modle kit market is anything thing like the halloween market (and dispite the difference in the products there does seem to be a lot of similarity) , manufacturers tailor their line to suit the needs of the larger chains, not those of the mom and pop retailers, and the thinking of the buyers for those chains is quite different than those of the independants.

regarding the master of the refit, its destruction to create the molds is really no big deal, as its merely a means to an end. a lot of people seem agast when they figure out that when i make the molds for a mask the sculpture is destroyed, and equally agast that to me its no big deal.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Lost wax?


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

Yep yep.


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