# O/t F1 Usa



## Anti-Cop (Jan 25, 2005)

Anybody else sitting in disbelief over the Grand Prix today? I cannot belief this.


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## coach61 (Sep 6, 2004)

I can. What I didn't like is the Michelin runners could have done 5 laps checked the tires to see then retire if nessacary instead of insulting the fans. I do understand the safety issue but this was a insult to my itelligence first time in a long time I have agreed with the FIA and was totally disgusted by the Michelin tire for being that stupid. I hate those balloons they call tires and I really dislike the new one tire rule although all teams had the option of chenging tires if they became unsafe ( The seperation of sidewalls) so no excuse at all fo not even doing a single lap.. ( Plus a single lap would have counted in the scoring and someone would have gotten the 2pts for 7th and 1 for 8th.. be ironic if one of those teams lost by that much to ferrari come the end of the year now wouldn't it.?)


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## jeauxcwails (Jun 13, 2000)

Local take. Many fans exiting polled indicated never returning to Indy, or attending any F1 race.
Indy press for several days has reported FIA unhappy with Indy Motor Speedway not promoting this race to the extent FIA wants.
One fan shown on local TV trying to return a (still in package) F1 t-shirt to the concessionaire where he bought it off-track.
David Hobbs calling all non-competing drivers (except Coulthard) spineless.
Local police presence was doubled in anticipation of trouble, but only a handful of fans were detained for disorderly actions.


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## car guy (Nov 22, 2003)

Did I miss something here?


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## DACSIGNS (Aug 18, 2004)

Them Michelin drivers forgot thier responsibility to the spectators big time! I'd switch brands if them tires are that bad! Glad the Cup boys were in action! Didnt have to "channel jump" today.

Circle Track DAC


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## coach61 (Sep 6, 2004)

car guy said:


> Did I miss something here?



I bet you already know this but just in case, 7 of the teams did the formation lap at the USGP then pulled into the pits and stopped. Seems Michlin got arogant and cokcy and brought a pile of useless balloons hmm rubber and deemed them unsafe and seeing as no one in F1 can agree on anything, instead of changing tires at regular intervuls as the FIA suggested they had a temper tantrum and make sure the USGP was a complete shame.. Mind ya it did spice up the drivers/contruction title races and allowed two teams ( Minardi and Jordon) to ensure thier share on the TV Money.( A Team must score a point to get a share.). So basicly we all got to watch a Bridgestone tire test, but at least bridestone brought a tire that worked.. hmm I wonder if my drag silicones will work in a 24 hour race..... :tongue:


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## buzzinhornet (Jan 20, 2000)

Wow. Is that messed up or what! On the surface it seems michelin really screwed up. 

Oh well, the champ car race in Portland went without a hitch. 

GP


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## Montoya1 (May 14, 2004)

It is much more complex than just the initial Michelin negligence.....


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## Montoya1 (May 14, 2004)

Most things that are wrong with F1 will have Max Mosley and Bernie Ecclestone at the root. Max runs the FIA, who govern Motorsport, Bernie runs Formula One management and they control F1 itself.

In the recent past, Bernie & Max did a deal with Ferrari which basically gives them preferential treatment from 2008 onwards. Bear in mind the other teams suspect that that is the case already (and there is certainly a lot of circumstantial evidence that suggests they are right), but this new deal would effectively write such actions into the secret document by which F1 is run.

As a result, Eccelstone was unable to force a deal through on Sunday to get the race run with all 20 cars. In the past he has gained a reputation for doing exactly that (making good, incisive deals & decisions), thereby making F1 a huge sport and himself very rich. But, having signed a deal with Ferrari, he has lost the trust of the other teams and they no longer co-operate with him.

The situation with Mosley is far worse. His running of F1 has been inept to a monstrous degree, and the fact the race started with 6 cars is down to him (through his flunkie Charlie Whiting, a drinking buddy of Ferrari's Ross Brawn) and Jean Todt (who runs the Ferrari F1 team)......

I can expound on this if anyone is interested?


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## coach61 (Sep 6, 2004)

You can expond but I just look at your handle and go here we go a Ferrari Basher...Michlin plain and simple...would you have prefered a chicane were the thin brakes on the car would wear out and have them explode on lap 40 at the end of the front straight and kill a coupleof dozen drunken fans? Michlin messed up let them take the blame. I think Max is a jerk and Bernie is a worm BUt they simply followed the rules and Ferrari doesn't have flexible wings like someone we know who suddenly going very fast now do they?

Go Jordan!


Dave


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## Montoya1 (May 14, 2004)

actually all the teams have recently been warned about flexible wings, there have been pictures in the quality press here (UK) showing Barrichello, Montoya and Alonso all with wings that seem to be curving under load and look very different to pictures of the car when static.

As for you other comment why does the fact I like Montoya automatically make me a Ferrari basher? The cause of the travesty at the weekend can squarly be laid at Michelin's door but the reason we had six cars is the machinations of Mosley and Todt. This is my reasoned view, I have been on the side of Maranello many other times but they have some blame here without a doubt.


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## Manning (Mar 2, 2004)

My love/hate of F1 continues...... Just when I was getting more excited about watching the races (i. e., someone other than MS winning), they go and pull a stupid stunt like this. 

I've only bought Michelins for my cars and trucks in the past. Will be more difficult in the future to buy Michelins.........


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## coach61 (Sep 6, 2004)

How is Ferrari to blame? The Tire rule was put in by vote by the michlin shod teams to stop ferrari's domination. It sort of worked but looks like maybe not...I realy fail to see why ferrari is to blame for any of this nonsense...Michlin Michlin Michlin...


Coach

And thats why I knew it would become a Ferrari's fault...


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## Montoya1 (May 14, 2004)

Coach, you seem to see this as a very simple issue when it is in fact pretty complex. You also seem to have a chip on your shoulder about Ferrari being badly treated in all this. And you don't seem to see a difference between the Ferrari of today and the one when Enzo Ferrari was alive. 

Enzo was a tough old bastard but he loved to race and would not have wanted the dishonour of racing four much slower cars. He would have agreed to a chicane (designed by his guys naturally) in exchange for the Michelin teams scoring no points.

The current Ferraris are just rebadged Fiats, and the current management saw a chance for to stick it to the other teams. They too could have allowed the chicane and made it very hard for the FIA to continue with it's hardline approach. The FIA may say that the chicane issue was not up to the teams but they are very good at spin (in fact it is all they seem good at).If all ten teams had agreed the FIA really would have had to yield.

So it is not Ferrrari fault alone, very few people came away this weekend with any credit. But they had a chance to avoid the six car debacle we got, and didn't take it. They could have saved the race and still got the 18 points but it was more important to stick it to the GPWC teams. That is a backstory that goes back weeks, months, years and may not of course be known in detail by (or of interest to) US fans.

As for Michelin, I hope that sales in the US drop sharply for a while, they deserve no better. But, ultimately, I hope they stay in F1 because a single tyre supplier is not what F1 needs. And the seven teams who withdrew should get severe punishment, despite the fact they will be 'punished' by being very slow in the next few races....

Regds - Dean


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

I just feel very bad for the fans who traveled from all over the country to see a race and ended up seeing a soap opera instead. No fan deserves to be treated like that. Someone needed to swallow their pride for the sake of the fans and give in a little. But F1 was lucky. If this situation had unfolded in Europe it would have triggered a bloody riot and they'd still be searching for survivors.


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## coach61 (Sep 6, 2004)

Yes but the six bridgestone runner could have parked for 71 laps and still won the race how well would that have been? The 7 got what they reaped they wanted the one tire rule to stop Ferrari.
I really feel there was no soultion. the two failures where not on the same corner.. would they have still blown at the end of say the front straight? just latter in the race? The Brakes where thin disk and you in the case of the chicane where asking for 3 new braking zones.. these cars are on the edge as the tires proved.. I hate to think of a brake failure at Indy Plus the fact Michlin failed to bring the safe tire.. No way you can blame any of the bridgestone runners. regardless if ferrari backed them or not it wasn't goingto happen. the FIA mearly governs the rules nothing else. No one has ever agreed with Ferrari and frankly I was surprized to see 7 of them agreed amongst themselves its not the nature of the beast. 

If all ten teams had agreed the FIA really would have had to yield. 

No they wouldn't of. the teams would have bene in breach not the FIA and I dreed next Wednsday as I think the reprucations will end the season..Yes end it.. I think Max the big Jerk and Bernie the worm will hand out huge fines and race suspesnions.. how you can suspend them all at once will be interesting but F1 is done. the WFc or what ever you call it will the same old same old in 5 years and rejoin just as we see Cart and the IRL doing now.. 



As for Michelin, I hope that sales in the US drop sharply for a while, they deserve no better. But, ultimately, I hope they stay in F1 because a single tyre supplier is not what F1 needs. And the seven teams who withdrew should get severe punishment, despite the fact they will be 'punished' by being very slow in the next few races....

Excellent Point Dean I mentioned it to my Wife this Am..If they are racing, which I am not so sure of. they will be very slow but Michlian was warned not to comprimise safety on June 1st they did and should be shown the door.

Regds - Dean[/QUOTE]


On a aside note.. do you think Michael will be a 8 time champ? I hate Renault so anyone is better then fred. LOL.. would accept kimi or Juan. But not Fred or Fisi. 

BTW I am a Jordon Fan..not a Ferrari fan its just my opion that blaming Ferrari is plain stupid. LOL

Dave


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## coach61 (Sep 6, 2004)

AfxToo said:


> I just feel very bad for the fans who traveled from all over the country to see a race and ended up seeing a soap opera instead. No fan deserves to be treated like that. Someone needed to swallow their pride for the sake of the fans and give in a little. But F1 was lucky. If this situation had unfolded in Europe it would have triggered a bloody riot and they'd still be searching for survivors.



Heck it was perfect for America.. we love shows like Survivor, the Bachelor why not a on track soap.. lol.. and I agree if they did this in Europe the stands would have been burning.. does that makes us whimps or self controlled? lol

In Canada we would have said ohhh Liberals..


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## Slott V (Feb 3, 2005)

Too bad the fans in the stands had NO CLUE what the F was going on.

The point being missed is that the FIA has been here (U.S.) for 6 years now and have basically treated the America fans like crap. F1 was just starting to mend it's relationship with US fans and attendance for this year was even up over last year. Now next year is looking bleak for Indy. But to say F1 is done because of this is going a bit overboard. F1 will survive this one.

I was pretty blown away when I watched the start. I think in this case you've got so many issues coming into play, it's like mixing bleach and ammonia. After thinking about the outcome, it's easy to say now that perhaps the FIA should have put in the chicane and made it a real race, EVEN THOUGH Michelin screwed up. Granted it would have been tough for drivers to adapt to this change, but that's my point; THEY ARE FORMULA ONE DRIVERS. It would have made much more sense and made for a much more interesting race for the fans. If Ferrari had a problem with that they could have not raced. Then they could bicker about the last minute change afterwards. Sure it's easy to be a Monday morning quarter back, after the game, but somebody (Mosley) should have had the experience and just plain *common sense* to know what the alternatives would be. It seems the FIA were calling the Michelin drivers' bluff in a dangerous game of poker. You can't blame the drivers who striked. You can't blame the drivers who raced. Tony George tried everything he could. (...he wouldn't even wave the checkered OR hand out the trophies at the end) But the stubborn FIA wouldn't change their rules for anyone. Not even the U.S. FANS!!!! 

I had an opportunity to attend the race but took a pass. Now I'm glad I made the right call. Seeing the "Bridgestone Tire Testing Day" as an example of my first live F1 race would have sucked. 

I had to laugh at Schumachers candor when interviewed after the race. When asked about track conditions when fans through stuff on the track, Schumie said with a slight smurk; "It wasn't too bad, some water bottles and cups- mostly beer on the track...from what I could smell."  

There's some good info in the Open Wheel forum of my BBS if you're into it:
http://planetofspeed.net/BBS/viewforum.php?f=12

-Scott


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## okracer (Mar 11, 2002)

you know i was thinkin the same thing about the chicane deal that they should have put it in but after listening to some of you i can see were it would not have worked 
those cars are built to run on the track they came to brakes and all so like u said the brakes would not have survived trying to slow down to make a chicane but i do not think that if the michellin guys were not going to run in the first place why tease the fans and make the formation lap that just well ill ticked but i wanted to use a p word lol


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## Slott V (Feb 3, 2005)

In order for the race to be considered "official" in the books all Bernie and Max needed was a full field in the formation lap. That took care of their legal obligation.

The people watching TV actually had a better seat than those that paid hundeds of dollars, took their vacations, drove their asses off, sat in traffic and got seats at historic Indy. Those watching TV got to see the melee that ensued between Mosley, Ecclestone, Tony George and heard the SpeedTV narrators report the controversy in horror, all while the fans were left without a clue. My boss was at the race and actually called me on his cell phone to find out what the F was going on.  

I really don't know what the FIA is thinking with some of their rules this year. Expecting these high tech ultra speed cars to run on one set of tires for both qualifying AND the ENTIRE race is an absurd expectation. Add to this the one engine/two race rule and you've got the makings for trouble. Michelin dug their own grave however by not supplying a back up tire for teams running their rubber.


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## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)

I am every bit a fan of F1 as anyone living in Europe. I was at the USGP on Sunday and what the Michelin teams decided to do was rediculous.

Michelin brought a gummy tire that flexed too much and could blow out. They should have had a B-Spec tire for the teams to use -- this is an FIA regulation, by the way -- but yet they insisted on a Mickey Mouse chicane being added to the circuit the morning of the race.

When Michelin and their teams did not get their way, they decided to pack it up and boycott, screwing about 200,000 fans at the track and millions more around the globe.

People come to Indy from Columbia, Japan, Finland, Italy, England, etc., etc. Travel expense, hotel accomodations, food, entertainment, tickets, etc., etc. It all adds up to a hefty weekend price tag and the fact that those teams did not give a DAMN about the fans disgusts me.

They can talk about wanting to race, being desperate to find a resolution, etc. but actions speak a lot louder than words. The teams could have started the race and checked wear and pressures after a few laps or at the first pit stop. If there were problems, they could have changed tires, taken any penalty associated with it, and continued on. NO -- they wouldn't win the race but you know what? That is for the teams to sort out with Michelin and why they brought a tire that couldn't hold up to the demands of the circuit.

The blame starts at Michelin for bringing a crap tire to Indy. The blame stops at the teams for not starting the race.

This will pretty much kill F1 in the USA I am afraid, and that is a shame because Indy, the track and the town, have worked very hard the last five years to develop this event.

'Doba


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

I've often wondered why the US F1 race isn't at Watkins Glen, Mid Ohio, Elkhart Lake, or one of the other fine permanent road courses. I'm not knocking Indy at all, but I'd just like to see the F1 presense increase in the US by rotating between venues from year to year. I hope that this deep wounds can be mended. F1 is the pinnacle of motor sports from a technology standpoint and I'd hate to see it bypass the US again.


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## coach61 (Sep 6, 2004)

AfxToo said:


> I've often wondered why the US F1 race isn't at Watkins Glen, Mid Ohio, Elkhart Lake, or one of the other fine permanent road courses. I'm not knocking Indy at all, but I'd just like to see the F1 presense increase in the US by rotating between venues from year to year. I hope that this deep wounds can be mended. F1 is the pinnacle of motor sports from a technology standpoint and I'd hate to see it bypass the US again.



I think the tracks you mention fail to pass safety standards. Same as Mosport in Canada which is a GREAT track, I agree the Glenn would be a awesome place to run the next GP I was not old enough to ever go to a F1 race when they did use it. I also loved going to the ORIGINAlL Detroit GP that was run downtown, I hated Belle Island the last year they ran.


Dave


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## Slott V (Feb 3, 2005)

June 29th will tell the tale of what those Michelin drivers face in penalties for the boycott.

F1 at Road America baby! What could be better than F1, bratwurst and beer? :thumbsup: 

Chicago strongly considered an F1 or Indy race years ago but that was shut down by the legendary Mayor Jayne Burne. Chitown has a much better traffic flow and more exits from the outer drive today. It could be considered if they could find a way to do it and not shut down the city. I can only imagine screaming F1 cars along the lake front! :roll:


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## blackroc (Mar 26, 2005)

As I started reading your post Slott V I started remembering my time in the Chicago area and was thinking the same thing. F1 cars flying down Lakeshore would be fantastic!


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## Slott V (Feb 3, 2005)

Think about Monaco. OK, the city of Monte Carlo can barely be compared to Chicago, but just keep the image of the Monaco GP in your head. Now think about a Chicago F1 GP;

After a pre-race fan appreciation party at the ESPN Zone, the race begins. The grid lines up on Southbound Lake Shore Drive near Grant Park where the road is wide and long. They dash into the first corner somewhere down by the Museum of Science and Industry and Soldiers Field. They come back towards the city down part of Michigan Avenue before the Eisenhower Expressway. The cars drop down into lower Wacker Drive, screaming through the tunnel-like road along the Chicago River as fans watch from Grandstands across the river. The cars find their way to Upper Wacker and dump out to the outer Drive of Lake Shore Drive and then scream across the bridge over the river. "Dicks Last Resort" and "North Beach" are packed with fans along the river in sidewalk cafe's. Fans in boats on Lake Michigan out sunning and drinking watching the cars race along the shoreline. F1 flags pepper all the boats in view. The cars make their way back at a hairpin somewhere down by the North Avenue Harbor and then coming screaming back past Millenium Park, past Grant Park, past Buckingham Fountain, then they loop back back around again by Soldiers Field and start over. Oh the fantasy....  :thumbsup:


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## Anti-Cop (Jan 25, 2005)

... and then a nice looking lady in a boat flashes her goods and causes a 12 car disaster, in which Michelin is blamed. 

Man that WOULD be awesome!!! I like your fantasy!


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## coach61 (Sep 6, 2004)

Anti-Cop said:


> ... and then a nice looking lady in a boat flashes her goods and causes a 12 car disaster, in which Michelin is blamed.
> 
> Man that WOULD be awesome!!! I like your fantasy!



I didn't know Michlin did Implants! :wave:


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