# A question about the Refitted USS Enterprise



## Guy Schlicter (May 3, 2004)

Hi,I have a question,In the Original Star Trek films did people like the Refitted Enterprise(I Did).I have another question,Is it possible the Original T.V.Series USS Enterprise sould have been redesigned to the degree it was as seen in Star Trek The Motion Picture,would people have preferred in stayed closer in design to the Original T.V. series Enterprise.I love the Old Enterprise,it was classic but I also liked the New Enterprise as well,Thanks,Guy Schlicter.


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## uss_columbia (Jul 15, 2003)

I love the original and the so-called refit. The original was simple and clean. The refit was beautiful. There are things I like better about each.
I wish they had either made it realistic for the original to have been converted to the refit (in something less than a total rebuild) or not claimed it was a refit, though.


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## Poseidon (Aug 30, 2004)

I like both designs. There's an elegance about the Enterprise from the Kirk era that the other generations failed to capture. I think the refit is beautiful, but I never did care for the look of the engines. They are boring. I've always thought they look like a vacuum cleaner attachment - the one that lets you get into tight spaces. When you are looking head on at the ship, the engines beg to have some sort of lighting effect, and these do not. Many people have said the dry-dock scene in ST:TMP is too long and boring. I think that's the best part of the movie! It's re-introducing us to our favorite character - the Enterprise. And we deserve to see her in her new glory. I agree that considering the extent of the refit, it's hard to believe it came from the same ship.


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

theres been a ton of stuff on the web justifying the refits change of proportions. and as much as a dearly love the original, there are things about it which, in relation to the refit, look awkward. there have also been many conjectural refits by fans which are mixes between the two versions (as well as the phase 2 version)

i agree completely about the warp engines. i really missed the bussard collectors lighting effect. it said that there was a mysterious power going on in there. im glad theve returned to something like it with the e-e, the pheonix, and the nx-01


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

I wish they'd kept the Enterprise pretty much the same as on TV except with some hyper-detailing and such. After it was destroyed in STIII, 1701A could have been something more drastic as presented in the movies.


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## Nova Designs (Oct 10, 2000)

I love both ships, in fact I go back and forth as to which I like more. But both are timeless and beautiful designs. I don't really see the refit as a truely refitted version of the original, but a radically new ship based on a very similar framework. But who knows, maybe in the 23rd Century, refitting will mean something different than it does now.


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## capt Locknar (Dec 29, 2002)

Well then again some people do consider the Refit to be an all new Enterprise Class versus a refit. I think it was mr scotts guide or maybe the old fasa stuff that insinuates that once the refit was done they decided to reclassify it as a whole new class because of the complete redesign.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Someone should do special editions of the first three movies replacing the movie version 1701 with a hyper-detailed (Jein version?) TOS 1701. THAT would be cool!


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## Richard Compton (Nov 21, 2000)

I do believe it was meant as a straight refit. The differences in proportions just looked nice to them, they weren't trying to justify it to the superfans!  You ever watch that show Pimp My Ride on MTV? This was sort of like Pimp My Starship.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Richard Compton said:


> I do believe it was meant as a straight refit. The differences in proportions just looked nice to them, they weren't trying to justify it to the superfans!  You ever watch that show Pimp My Ride on MTV? This was sort of like Pimp My Starship.


I agree. The refit used idealized proportions from the original ship.

However, it would be interesting to see a retro-fitted version of the TOS 1701 using the exact proportions inherent in the refit.


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## MGagen (Dec 18, 2001)

"Pimp My Starship." :lol: 

I contend that Jefferies intended the Phase II ship to be a true refit. His drawings have some very interesting points in common with his prevous design.

There is a section view showing deck structure that looks almost to have been traced from his original TOS section view -- right down to the turbolift pathways. And the primary hull looks like the original is still inside it. The flat AMT-style lip on the underside begins at just about the point where the old hull diameter ends -- making it look like an extension added on to the old hull. The top surface contour has been reworked to the point where it would require some rebuilding, but the bottom contour looks pretty close to MJ's drawings of the TOS-E. The dorsal and engines are, of course, totally new. The secondary hull is the same length and appears only to have been made fatter about the middle. The interior hangar deck is virtually unchanged from the series.

This was the state of things when MJ left the project. After the transition to a feature motion picture, Jefferies' design was revised by Andy Probert. This is where the continuity was broken when he began scaling the components to get what he perceived as a more pleasing balance. He made a deliberate decision to change it so it couldn't be a true refit, even thought the script said otherwise. Today we are left with no way to truly reconcile the "Refit" with the original ship.

This has always bothered me. As nice as the cosmetic refinements he introduced are (and I think they are great), it wasn't necessary to make it "a whole new ship." Most of us like to think of it as actually being Kirk's original ship, not a whole new vessel with maybe a nut or bolt of the original for old times sake.

I think they should have relooped some of the lines in the Director's Cuts of the various movies:

KIRK: "Scotty, they gave her back to... er-- another ship of the same name to me."

SULU (beaming with pride): "Any chance to go aboard The... er, a ship named Enterprise."

Mark


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## Nova Designs (Oct 10, 2000)

Richard Compton said:


> I do believe it was meant as a straight refit. The differences in proportions just looked nice to them, they weren't trying to justify it to the superfans!  You ever watch that show Pimp My Ride on MTV? This was sort of like Pimp My Starship.


Hahahahaha! Good one :thumbsup:


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## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

Poseidon said:


> There's an elegance about the Enterprise from the Kirk era that the other generations failed to capture. I think the refit is beautiful, but I never did care for the look of the engines. They are boring. I've always thought they look like a vacuum cleaner attachment - the one that lets you get into tight spaces.



LMAO. Vacuum cleaner.... :lol: 
I agree with you on this. They looked very dull, and I always liked the thought of the front lighting up like you see im most ST craft. Gives it a look of power. On the old "E" the engine nacelles were awsum and the way they had them lit and worked made the ship. the newer ones are great as well, but now that the CGI has come into play, they have that Cload effect that ticks me off in trying to duplicate in a model. They look look great, don't get me wrong. But wouldn't it be cool to have a starship design showed on TV that had the original rotating nacelles with the blinking lights in the back? A newer or different design. Maybe even in the TNG era?


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## spe130 (Apr 13, 2004)

I'm willing to play the "suspension of disbelief" game far enough to allow the refit from ST 1-3 to be a completely reconstructed version of the Big E. It isn't entirely without precedent even today - look at the Navy's Iowa-class battleships as originally constructed, as compared to their current look. They have been modified all over the place, including some hull reconstruction. 

Starfleet may have simply found it to be cheaper to dismantle and severly rebuild the Constitution-class ships than to start over with a new design, especially if they were in the early planning stages of a whole new class of heavy cruiser, such as the Excelsior-class.


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## TheYoshinator! (Apr 2, 2004)

I think the lack of a glowing Bussard on the TMP E was a result of time constraints and the indecision on how to resolve the new look. As can be seen in MJ's Phase II designs he had intended it to glow there as it did on the TOS E.

It just simply glowing there may have seemed boring in their eyes- if it didn't have some action to it and simply glowed. Even the new dish had some action to it. It was suposed to transition from a TOS-like Gold to it's final TMP-Blue (It just didn't read well the way they ended up showing it.). With the TOS Bussard it was spherical so it was easy to fit and spin some light effects behind it and make it interesting. However, after they may have not had enough time to decide on what action to do for the non-spherical new bussard, they abandoned it for time constraints.

After all, just look at TNG. The most they thought of was twin static lights and aren't nearly as interesting, visually, as the TOS's bussards.

I kinda like the grill designs though. If it had always been a glow there, there wouldn't be the uniqueness I LOVE and so many others LOVE about the TMP and TOS Movie Era Designs. And since we are here salivating over the most sought after design (the upcoming TMP-Refit) I have to say... I think, in the end, they got it completely right. :tongue:


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

Andy Probert intended the D's Buzzards to have similar lighting effects to the original _Enterprise_ miniature's power domes. He was disappointed that ILM dropped the ball and merely placed two static lights into the front of each nacelle on the 6' model.

My model will have them.


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## trevanian (Jan 30, 2004)

TheYoshinator! said:


> I think the lack of a glowing Bussard on the TMP E was a result of time constraints and the indecision on how to resolve the new look. As can be seen in MJ's Phase II designs he had intended it to glow there as it did on the TOS E.
> 
> It just simply glowing there may have seemed boring in their eyes- if it didn't have some action to it and simply glowed. Even the new dish had some action to it. It was suposed to transition from a TOS-like Gold to it's final TMP-Blue (It just didn't read well the way they ended up showing it.).


No, the decision on the engines was a very deliberate one (stupid in my view), absolutely locked in nearly two years prior to the film's release. Richard Taylor (no relation to the Richard Taylor at WETA now) was Robert Abel's art director, and he was in charge (over Probert) on the redesign from a time (roughly dec 77) BEFORE "in thy image" scaled up into TMP. He specifically took charge of certain areas, especially the engines, so they reflect EXACTLY what he wanted (except for the changes that were added after Abel's removal, mainly the spotlights.)

I dont' know where you've heard about the dish supposedly changing color in the same shot, but that's a new one on me. It is certainly two different colors in the film, but nobody I've talked with has ever copped to WHY that is the case (though if you figure warp power being online as being what makes the dish blue, the continuity holds up about 75% of the time.)


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

^^Further, IIRC, the MJ plans had no place for a glowing effect on the front of the nacelles since they were plain and had no grilles.


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## Zombie_61 (Apr 21, 2004)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is the only time in movie history where the re-design was actually an improvement over the original. Don't get me wrong, I love the original series design. But I have to give the nod to the refit when it comes to which version I prefer.

Oops, I just remembered the Sci-Fi Channel's Battlestar Galactica. Okay, maybe the _first_ time in movie history?


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

^You're wrong. 






Seriously, I love them both.


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## rossjr (Jun 25, 2001)

My personal opinion, with apologies to John P......

Growing up and watching the series I like the TOS E. For it's time it was realistic enough and had it's elegance. In my mind the Refit is no Refit but a re-engineered constitution class ship. To me it is much more believable to have had TMP start with the original being added to a museum someplace with the crew reassigned to what I think should have been the "A" all along. The only other acceptable transition would have been to put TOS E through a recycler. In my mind there is no way they are the same ship or even the same frame.

Just my 2 cents worth, again apologies to John P

BTW - The Refit is my favorite.....:dude:


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## TheYoshinator! (Apr 2, 2004)

trevanian said:


> No, the decision on the engines was a very deliberate one (stupid in my view), absolutely locked in nearly two years prior to the film's release. Richard Taylor (no relation to the Richard Taylor at WETA now) was Robert Abel's art director, and he was in charge (over Probert) on the redesign from a time (roughly dec 77) BEFORE "in thy image" scaled up into TMP. He specifically took charge of certain areas, especially the engines, so they reflect EXACTLY what he wanted (except for the changes that were added after Abel's removal, mainly the spotlights.)


Yes, but the Phase II model was built, which took time. According to the MJ Plans at http://www.cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/STMPEnterprise/Phase2Drawings.htm the design of it was ongoing up until Nov 77 at least. But then it took some time to build it.

But that design and model was abandoned and additional pre-production time was wasted up when they decided to re-design yet again around Dec 77. THAT wasted even more time. Now we know from Andy Probert's pics that the redesigned bridge/vip lounge, etc. was added sometime around mid '78 to finalize the ship. So that means the ship with all of it's pearl paint was done before this time, which btw, painting it took up most of that time according to Mr. Olsen. Designing and building was a vastly smaller timespan. In that respect (1.5 years from debut) it seems correct that they decided well in advance, as you say.

Keep in mind, the Phase II model was never finished. Yet all the plans show a definitive line for a Bussard. Production paintings based on the Phase II plans show a Bussard. Even pics of the Phase II model molds show the line. So the 'how to build it, internally, in this new lateral shape'' issue of a newer Bussard wasn't easily adopted into the new model since the Phase II model didn't even reach that point either. I don't think it was simply the idea on wanting grills there instead when the new crew came in. The Bussard was a character trait of the TOS Enterprise and wouldn't get easily abandoned if it were not for a sensible reason. Everyone likes the TOS E' s engines. It was the newer angular/lateral engine shape that was problematic. It was most likely that the change in the overall forward shape of the engine and how to resolve it's look that lead to the decision to just put grills there due to the lack of time to figure it out externaly or internally.

I admit that's just speculation, but it makes sense. The production was already experiencing the enormous delays and pressures that plagued ST:TMP. This was AFTER the studio's MAJOR concerns of switching effects houses. They had to get it done and I speculate the loss of the bussard was the casualty of that time constraint.

My point really is- despite the fact that it was a year and a half prior to film release, they didn't have a year and a half to get the ship done. They were on a schedule within schedules of redesigning, fabricating, wiring, painting, and test filming. All because time equaled money and plenty of time had been wasted already.


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

I read that Matt Jefferies wanted the nacelles on TOS 1701 to be like what was on the refit, but Gene Roddenberry got his way. I am glad, because that is what I like about
TOS ship. You can see the power.


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

I'd like to think the original Phase II (not that BBMM abomination being passed around as the Phase II) was to have Bussard Collectors with a lighting pattern similar or exact to the warp core in TMP. A blue/white (red/orange?) fluxuating effect behind the entire forward end dome.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

ThomasModels said:


> I'd like to think the original Phase II (not that BBMM abomination being passed around as the Phase II) was to have Bussard Collectors with a lighting pattern similar or exact to the warp core in TMP. A blue/white (red/orange?) fluxuating effect behind the entire forward end dome.


I've got some artwork from an old _Starlog_ magazine showing a preproduction illustration of the _Phase II _ version of the ship with the secondary hull registration numbers and such. I'll check that for signs of an effect there. I don't remember anything there, however, I don't think I ever looked for it.

I've seen a poster version of the _ST:TMP_ ship that has a bunch of details wrong but seems to indicate some sort of effect on the nacelles there.

I'd like to think there'd have been an effect there as well. I'd love to be able to document such for a _Phase II_ model kit. As pointed out, the line is definitely there for it. It'd be a cool effect to have.


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

Well....

At this point, should those forward domes be cast in red or blue?


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## TheYoshinator! (Apr 2, 2004)

Here's a Phase II Illustration:

http://webpages.charter.net/theyoshinator/images/PII.jpg

I'm guessing it would have been like the TMP impulse. It would be Blue in reality but maybe gelled red?

So it SHOULD be red!?

It's a shame the above pic is mono-colored.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

PerfesserCoffee said:


> I've got some artwork from an old _Starlog_ magazine showing a preproduction illustration of the _Phase II _ version of the ship with the secondary hull registration numbers and such . . .


Well, I'm flummoxed.  I know I've seen it somewhere but it wasn't in the old _Starlog _ magazine -- I looked and that was the early TMP version with vents.

Edit:

Found it! Page 61 of _The Art of Star Trek_. It's an earlier version of the Mike Minor illustration that appeared in _Starlog_. It shows a dish antenna, a couple of indentions under the saucer, _STO_S style insignia and lettering but no effect at the front of the nacelles. Of course, it doesn't really show the effect from the sides of the engines, similar to the movie effect, either so it's not conclusive.

Then again, the fronts of the nacelles of the model being build look solid so the major lighting effect may have been just the sides of the nacelles.


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## TheYoshinator! (Apr 2, 2004)

Okay one more pic.

This one shows the bussard seperation line in the mold:

http://webpages.charter.net/theyoshinator/images/PII_2.jpg


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

This is the Phase II thread from a while back:


http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=35177&highlight=Phase



Here is a concept design pic with no lighting effects on the nacelle fronts:












and another:











and yet another variation of the design with lights:

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/attachment.php?attachmentid=2351


If I were to choose a color, IMHO, I would go with the red-orange color depicted in the link above.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

http://www.stguardian.to/fed/constitutionrefit/phaseIIent.jpg

This is a color version of the poster showing a bluish effect on the nacelle front.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Trek Ace said:


> . . . and yet another variation of the design with lights:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Somehow that doesn't look kosher.


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## MGagen (Dec 18, 2001)

Lloyd Collins said:


> I read that Matt Jefferies wanted the nacelles on TOS 1701 to be like what was on the refit, but Gene Roddenberry got his way. I am glad, because that is what I like about
> TOS ship. You can see the power.


I'd like to see this in print somewhere. Can you find it?

I suspect it is a mistaken impression caused by an inaccurate photo caption in one of the Trek art books (can't remember which off hand). It showed a 3-view sketch of the Enterprise by MJ with TMP style engines and backswept pylons. The caption claimed it was the MJ's final drawing of the original TV ship. This despite the plainly read inscription on the drawing dating it to 1977! It was actually MJ's take on the redesign for Phase II...

Mark


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

PerfesserCoffee said:


> Somehow that doesn't look kosher.


PerfesserCoffee,

Your response to the link Trek Ace posted on the nacelle lights.
You are right. The image is from a poster inserted in Science Fantasy Film Classics Magazine July 1978. The poster on one side had that shot of the Enterprise, scene from Laserblast, and This Island Earth. On the other side had blueprints of Franz Joseph Design from the technical manual.

It was an original painting for the magazine. May have got idea from Phase II, but the main feature was TOS. Yes I have the magazine and poster. Part of my Star Trek collection started in the 70's.

I think the lights would look good and could also be what they had in mind for Phase II. I so far have not read anything to confirm that.

Lloyd :wave:


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

MGagen said:


> I'd like to see this in print somewhere. Can you find it?
> 
> I suspect it is a mistaken impression caused by an inaccurate photo caption in one of the Trek art books (can't remember which off hand). It showed a 3-view sketch of the Enterprise by MJ with TMP style engines and backswept pylons. The caption claimed it was the MJ's final drawing of the original TV ship. This despite the plainly read inscription on the drawing dating it to 1977! It was actually MJ's take on the redesign for Phase II...
> 
> Mark


Mark,

Finding the book I read that in will take some time. I have been reading a lot of my Star Trek books lately,and I do not remember which book. I will let you know when I find it.

Lloyd


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

Either _The Art of Star Trek_ or _The Star Trek Scrapbook_.


I can check when I get home.


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

MGagen said:


> I'd like to see this in print somewhere. Can you find it?
> 
> I suspect it is a mistaken impression caused by an inaccurate photo caption in one of the Trek art books (can't remember which off hand). It showed a 3-view sketch of the Enterprise by MJ with TMP style engines and backswept pylons. The caption claimed it was the MJ's final drawing of the original TV ship. This despite the plainly read inscription on the drawing dating it to 1977! It was actually MJ's take on the redesign for Phase II...
> 
> Mark


Mark,

An update. I found it. Star Trek The Magazine, December 2001 issue on the STMP Director's Edition. On page 84, redesigning the 1701, "He goes on to say that he had actually prepared drawings that showed the ENTERPRISE with flat nacelles when he'd originally created the ship. He had planned to present then if Gene didn't like the first version of the ENTERPRISE he saw but since they hadn't been needed he'd filed them away for future use. These drawings provided the basis for his redesign."

I knew I could find but not this fast. I am glad Gene picked what is our favorite starship. :thumbsup: 

Lloyd :wave:


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## NJFNick (May 22, 2004)

Yoshinator,
That shot of the moulds you posted is a beauty. Does anyone else have any other rare photos of the models or pre production? I think that the design for the Phase II ship would stand up well as a cannon interim refit - sort of a test prototype commissioned by starfleet. I agree with the atke on the blue / white lighting effect for the bussards. It just looked so cool.


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

NJFNick,
I noticed that you are from Nottingham, made me think of Robin Hood the series with Richard Green. Love that show. Good to see you here.

Your mention about the Bussards lighting, they would have to be red. If you think about it ,TOS,STNG,and the other series all have red so I believe a standard was been set that need to be kept.

LLoyd


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Lloyd Collins said:


> Your mention about the Bussards lighting, they would have to be red. If you think about it ,TOS,STNG,and the other series all have red so I believe a standard was been set that need to be kept.


Definitely. Though all we have is one inaccurate poster's suggestion of an effect on the front of the nacelle so far, I don't think it's much of a stretch to include one there in addition to the blue effect behind it.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Lloyd Collins said:


> Mark,
> 
> An update. I found it. Star Trek The Magazine, December 2001 issue on the STMP Director's Edition. On page 84, redesigning the 1701, "He goes on to say that he had actually prepared drawings that showed the ENTERPRISE with flat nacelles when he'd originally created the ship. He had planned to present then if Gene didn't like the first version of the ENTERPRISE he saw but since they hadn't been needed he'd filed them away for future use. These drawings provided the basis for his redesign."
> 
> ...


Thanks for clarifying that, Lloyd! I was curious about that, too! Fascinating little tidbit, there.


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## capt Locknar (Dec 29, 2002)

NJFNick said:


> Yoshinator,
> That shot of the moulds you posted is a beauty. Does anyone else have any other rare photos of the models or pre production? I think that the design for the Phase II ship would stand up well as a cannon interim refit - sort of a test prototype commissioned by starfleet. I agree with the atke on the blue / white lighting effect for the bussards. It just looked so cool.


That shot was also in one of the Enterprise Incidents magazine from a while back, I believe the late 70's. I have a copy of it but the pic in that magazine looks more like a photo that was redrawn with pencil. This copy is much more cleaner.


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## TheYoshinator! (Apr 2, 2004)

I can see why it's thought to be blue. It may in fact be, but in that same pic they show the physical non-glowing dish with the same blue in it. Honestly, I think the artist was just depicting a fill lit shadow and the fill light was blue. It looks to me as if the Bussards are there.. but just unlit. But that's just my opinion.

This is the only other pic I have of the molds even though it's not relevant to our discussion, here it is:

http://webpages.charter.net/theyoshinator/images/PII_3.jpg


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## MGagen (Dec 18, 2001)

Lloyd Collins said:


> An update. I found it. Star Trek The Magazine, December 2001 issue on the STMP Director's Edition. On page 84, redesigning the 1701, "He goes on to say that he had actually prepared drawings that showed the ENTERPRISE with flat nacelles when he'd originally created the ship. He had planned to present then if Gene didn't like the first version of the ENTERPRISE he saw but since they hadn't been needed he'd filed them away for future use. These drawings provided the basis for his redesign."


Thanks a lot, Lloyd! What a very interesting tidbit. Like all good commercial artists, he had a Plan B to sell his favorite design. Wouldn't you love to see those sketches to know how closely they resemble what he did later?

Mark


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## Bay7 (Nov 8, 1999)

Although it's a tenuous link to what the colour might have been, one of the design sketches of a propossed engine design (in the Phase 2 book) shows MJ directing that the colour should be "a blue/green effect - other than just blue". If MJ was going down the bluey avenue, it 'could' explain the blue tint in the painting.

And as we all know, although red was a dominant colour in the lit spinning collectors, there were also many other colours too - so perhaps it's not a foregone conclusion that they would have been red.

It needed something to brighten it up though! It would have been a rather boring miniature (IMO) without lit engines. Although I'm not too sure if a blue/green effect would have looked very nice.

Mike


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## TheYoshinator! (Apr 2, 2004)

^^ I really need to get ahold of one of those Phase II books sometime... I keep putting it off.

Which one specifically is the one you're quoting?


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## Bay7 (Nov 8, 1999)

Star Trek Phase 2: the lost series by Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens.

Please forgive the crude-ness of the attached image - I've fiddled with the un-finshed PII miniature picture to see what red or blue engines look like - red looks best - blue is horrible!!!

Mike


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

There would have been a blue lighting effect similar to TMP in the engine nacelle sides (inner and outer) as well. There is a sketch in the PII book indicating that blue-green light would have been visible through the brass 'slats' similar to the TMP engines. There's also a notation making the 'power pod' inset rather than protruding.

There's no real indication other than the one poster that I've seen of an effect at the front. The model under construction seems to contraindicate a lighting effect there. However, the delineations are clearly visible where, if there were to be a clear/frosted area for lighting, they would be.

Has anyone else found any references besides the one poster that may support a lighting effect there?


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

BTW: Anyone else catch the groove in the top of each nacelle on the forward top halves?


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Okay, I have a possible reference to nacelle dome lights:

PII, p.72, top reproduced memo dated 12/6/77:

'On engline pods [sic] add lights add either a "chaser light" system, or some other light effect to act as a "heat/energy field" when the ship is in flight.'

This note is made after TPTB looked at the existing model then under construction. It is also after the notes made on the sketch made some 6 months before by Jefferies indicating the blue-green nacelle lighting effects on the sides. Therefore, it seems reasonable to assume that this was an additional lighting effect and there'd be no other likely place to put it than the engine domes. In addition, the suggestion of 'chaser light system' would also harken back to the flickering lights in the domes of the TOS engines so that I have no real doubt as to that being what was suggested.


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

Thanks PerfesserCoffee, I have that book and never read that memo until now. I was looking in the magazine on STMP, and saw a promo poster that used the Phase II ship on it. The nacelle lights look blue. So I am still confused.


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## TheYoshinator! (Apr 2, 2004)

Bay7 said:


> Star Trek Phase 2: the lost series by Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens.


Thanks for the Info!


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Lloyd Collins said:


> Thanks PerfesserCoffee, I have that book and never read that memo until now. I was looking in the magazine on STMP, and saw a promo poster that used the Phase II ship on it. The nacelle lights look blue. So I am still confused.


What the ship would have looked like in final form is, unless we get more definitive info, anybody's guess. 

My guess is that, after reading that memo, there _would_ have been a lighting effect in the engine domes (in addition to the TMP like effect _on all four sides_ of the nacelles). Probably would have been some sort of chaser like effect in the domes similar to, though due to shape obviously not exactly like, the TOS effect. Perhaps, as Thomas suggested, a fluctuating effect similar to the warp core in TMP since that stayed pretty consistent from PII to TMP. 

I'd go with the reddish/orange look since that was reintroduced in TNG and indicates a possible nostalgia or attempt at consistency among TPTB at the time.


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## Bay7 (Nov 8, 1999)

During the released construction photo's of the 1701 E, you could have been forgiven for thinking that the engines would have been un-lit.


I'm not an expert but the PII construction photo's make it look like the ship being built would be the master from which the moulds are made.

Wasn't the refit made from a vac formed shell? The saucer looks like it's already been done as the stick supporting it is causing an indentation - the secondary hull looks like it's made from clay.

If it was the final ship, I would not have looked forward to shifting it!

I know this could be discussed until the cows come home but i kninda enjoy it - it's a bit like archaeology. If only someone could get hold of the original plans/moulds.....

Has anyone thought of contacting Brick Price? I don't like his so called PII but he did have/have access to the original parts didn't he?

Mike


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Bay7 said:


> During the released construction photo's of the 1701 E, you could have been forgiven for thinking that the engines would have been un-lit.


I think they were originally intended to be unlit _at the front_. There were notes at the beginning to the effect on the sides much like the TMP engine glow strips -- that being the only lit engine part _as originally intended_. 

I think the memo six months later means they would have added an _additional _ lighting effect _at the front of the nace_lles.




> I'm not an expert but the PII construction photo's make it look like the ship being built would be the master from which the moulds are made.


You may be right but I'm pretty sure that was the final ship being constructed, the moulds having already been mastered, created, and used.



> I know this could be discussed until the cows come home but i kninda enjoy it - it's a bit like archaeology.


Agreed. It is fascinating stuff.



> If only someone could get hold of the original plans/moulds.....
> 
> Has anyone thought of contacting Brick Price? I don't like his so called PII but he did have/have access to the original parts didn't he?


'Twould be nice :hat:


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

Here is some more fascinating tidbits. From Star Trek Communicator issue 133 June/July 2001,William McCullars interviewed Richard Datin model maker of TOS 1701. Roddenberry issued a memo April 7,1966 outlining the upgrade of the pilot 1701 to the production version. Besides the changes that were done he wanted to add lights to the domes on the rear of the nacells, and to have lights from the inside area panels on both nacelles that face each other. He mentioned to add more windows to make the ship look as if to have more decks. I have not compared the two versions to see if that was done.

So by the wanted changes, you could model the TOS 1701 to have the lights as if it had an upgrade after the 3rd season. I have a sheet of decals for the PL 1701 that has blue ligt panel for inside nacelles. I am thinking about using them on one ship.

Lloyd :thumbsup:


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

For a clear shot of the 1701 Polar kit:


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## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

Bay7 said:


> Please forgive the crude-ness of the attached image - I've fiddled with the un-finshed PII miniature picture to see what red or blue engines look like - red looks best - blue is horrible!!!
> 
> Mike


I am wondering, in a book I have called Ships of Star Fleet, it shows different conversions. And one looks like this. Did they use the design from Phase 2 in this book as well? I noticed that the original Constitution class is also in this book, and in keeping up with designs, they added an updated design that is exact to the AMT/ERTL 18" Enterprise model that was produced. At least I think it is exact.


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