# OT: History



## JeffG (May 10, 2004)

I know, I know. We like to stay on the topic we all come here for which is models and all things related, but last night history in our lifetime was made as Barack Obama won the election. As a 47 year old African-American myself, this particularly strikes a note with me. It tells me that we are growing as a people and that we can look beyond the color of a person's skin and find that we all share a common ground and are all, indeed, in this together.

I really hope that in the years to come, Mr. Obama shows the leadership that we so desperately need by reaching out to both parties and world leaders alike. America spoke yesterday, and we spoke loud. I haven't seen this many culturally diverse people celebrate since the Death Star blew up. Let's hope from this day forward that we begin to move in the right direction. Thanks for bearing with me and I'm coming down from my soap box. Now back to making models!


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## Prince of Styrene II (Feb 28, 2000)

JeffG said:


> I haven't seen this many culturally diverse people celebrate since the Death Star blew up.


Oddly enough, I think you're right. 

I just hope he will have the support to bring the change he's been talking about for the last 21 months. <fingers crosses>


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## MadCap Romanian (Oct 29, 2005)

Yes...and I'll be the first to buy the Resin kit!

Glad the US will finally get the President they deserve!


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## John Galt (Nov 23, 2001)

I was 17 when they got Dr. King and RFK.
I was camping in Montana when Mt. St.Helens blew next state over. 
I saw the Queen of England when she came to open the Olympic games in Calgary.

I never thought I'd live to see this.

Outstanding, America! Your makeover has begun. You gonna look fabulous!


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

This thread will get shut down eventually but before it does, I'd just like to say, *AMEN! *


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## Cro-Magnon Man (Jun 11, 2001)

I stayed up all night (UK time) to watch it, and it was worth it. 
And yes, this thread will probably get locked, but I was impressed by how throughout all yesterday, day and evening, no political posts appeared here; everyone stuck to posting about models, even on such a momentous day. So it was a day when the Modelling Forum showed its quality as well!




John Galt said:


> I saw the Queen of England when she came to open the Olympic games in Calgary.


I've never seen the Queen in real life!


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## Auroranut (Jan 12, 2008)

It's about time!! Maybe it will go a long way to breaking down the stupid barriers between races.
I wish Mr. Obama all the best in his new role.

Chris.


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## JeffG (May 10, 2004)

Maybe Roddenberry's vision is just a little bit closer now!


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## Scott Hasty (Jul 10, 2003)

It has never been the color of one's skin I was concerned with but with his system of beliefs.

I find it ironic that it is the man's color I hear referred to almost constantly, but not his political stances.

Had he been a blue-eyed, blonde-haired, fair-skinned caucasian, I would still be frightened because of his affiliations, lack of experience and liberal stances.


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## JohnGuard (Jan 13, 2008)

John Galt said:


> I was 17 when they got Dr. King and RFK.
> I was camping in Montana when Mt. St.Helens blew next state over.
> I saw the Queen of England when she came to open the Olympic games in Calgary.
> 
> ...


i met Diane Sawyer a month ago..............


my life is complete now :woohoo:


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

Scott Hasty said:


> It has never been the color of one's skin I was concerned with but with his system of beliefs.
> 
> I find it ironic that it is the man's color I hear referred to almost constantly, but not his political stances.
> 
> Had he been a blue-eyed, blonde-haired, fair-skinned caucasian, I would still be frightened because of his affiliations, lack of experience and liberal stances.


Fair enough. But the man's color is inextricably bound to 200 years of American history. The election of Barack Obama is an historic event which far exceeds the specific parameters of American "politics".


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## flyingfrets (Oct 19, 2001)

I think too much is being made of the issue. 

And the fact is that he is NOT the first African-American President.

He's the first bi-racial President.

But I still fail to see how the color of one's skin (or lack there-of) has anything to do with his political affiliation, qualification or ability.


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## JeffG (May 10, 2004)

People, or at least the overwhelming majority of them, did not vote for him simply because he was black. It was by far his views, accomplishments thus far, ideas and strength of character that got him where he is. To most that supported him, his color was a welcome side note-not the reason. Just because I'm black does not mean that I'll vote for Flavor Flav. It still takes more and it should. And did.

And Flying Frets, if it were 40 or so years ago and a young Obama wandered into a deep south and racially biased restaurant, how long do you think it would take before someone asked him if he were bi-racial? I remember many years ago when I was just a kid, my grandarents and my two brothers and I drove to California and there were places where we would stop and eat and had to use the bathroom marked 'colored'. Obviously not everywhere, but once is one time too many. The significance of this event should not be taken lightly.


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## Auroranut (Jan 12, 2008)

JeffG said:


> I remember many years ago when I was just a kid, my grandarents and my two brothers and I drove to California and there were places where we would stop and eat and had to use the bathroom marked 'colored'. Obviously not everywhere, but once is one time too many. The significance of this event should not be taken lightly.


I personally find that disgusting!! All races should be shown the same respect! People are all equal 'till they prove otherwise.

Chris.:wave:


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## superduty455 (Jun 21, 2000)

Since this thread hasn't been deleted. I'm going to add my two cents.
I based my voting simply on what each candidates merits were. I simply could not vote for Obama with some of the things he has in store. 

When he gave a keynote address at the Democratic convention four years ago I was certainly impressed. He speaks well. I certainly hope his actions match. I just don't agree with his views and some of the things he has on his agenda. Although with his speech last night he knows we need to focus on the tasks at hand at this moment in time. 
I will back him as president. 
So, lets hope he can drop the price of plastic, cause I'm having a hard time buying everything I want.

Chris


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## mcdougall (Oct 28, 2007)

Ever notice that we all are one on these forums? I can't tell if you're black, white, yellow or red...You could hate one race or another and without knowing it be a best friend on the forums to someone of that particular race that you think you hate  Which only goes to show that when you can't see that person there is no prejudice and we CAN actually , dare I say it...get along :thumbsup: To me the only Race I see here is the Best Race of all...the Human Race:wave:
Mcdee
Model on , my Brothers and Sisters!!!


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## flyingfrets (Oct 19, 2001)

Jeff,

I meant no slight or disrespect to Mr. Obama.

While I'm not a democrat and don't agree 100% with his policies, I don't *dis*agree 100% either.

That doesn't take anything away from his stature as a human being or character as a man. I've always found him to be intelligent, very well spoken and generally speaking, I think this country will be just fine under his leadership...and at the risk of incurring the wrath of the moderators, a damn sight better than it's been for the last 8 years.

And whether the media chooses to label him African-American, bi-racial or multi-cultural, I am *well* aware of the significance of his election regarless of whatever label is put upon him. And it *is* a great step forward.

But I still stand by what I said earlier...I think too much is being made of the issue. 

I think Mr. Obama is probably what this country needs at this point in time. But I also think that has far more to do with his eloquence, intelligence and ability to unify the masses than it does with the color of his skin.

I can understand the pride in his accomplishment. What I can't understand is the press' obsession with it. The man *does* have some other pretty significant talking points. I just find it rather lame that for the time being, it seems to be all they can focus on, but that's their shortcoming, not his.


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## JeffG (May 10, 2004)

Good points. I agree.


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## the Dabbler (Feb 17, 2005)

" Ninety per cent+ African Americans voted for Obama"..So much for race NOT making a difference. How many more Whites voted for him than Blacks for a white man ??

It was a historically significant event and I'm proud to be an American. I would gladly have voted for a Black man, ( several come to mind) but not THAT Black man. No-ones knows anything about him, and he keeps it that way. His only record is a tax and spend socialist who thinks robbing from the rich and giving to everyone else is fair. I'm afraid the economy will suffer and so will jobs under his leftist ideas. If so, it will give the Republicans a great chance in 2 and 4 years.

You are right on one thing, this is a modeling forum, and modeling will go on no matter who is in the Whitehouse.

The King is dead, long live the King !


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

Well. It was a good conversation while it lasted.


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## PhilipMarlowe (Jan 23, 2004)

When Kennedy was elected President, a reporter asked John Wayne how he felt about it. John Wayne said, "Well, he's not the guy I voted for, but I sure hope he does a good job."

John Wayne was a classy guy and a real American. A lot could learn from him.


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## F91 (Mar 3, 2002)

Well said Scott.
Personally, I have never been MORE proud of my country than I was last night. I had the misfortune of seeing the segregated water fountains and the Klan. Going to Georgia in the 60's every summer, you could see that kind of crap.
Now it's time for Americans to support our New President, right?
Respect the office, isn't that what you said? 
Walk the walk.


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## scotpens (Sep 6, 2003)

flyingfrets said:


> I think too much is being made of the issue.


I agree.


flyingfrets said:


> And the fact is that he is NOT the first African-American President.
> 
> He's the first bi-racial President.


Well, since NOBODY is racially "pure," it's largely a matter of perception, isn't it? (For example, Halle Berry is biracial but looks and identifies herself as "black.") In any case, it's what the man will do after he takes up residence in the White House that's important now.

Hmmm. . . Halle Berry for President?


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

PhilipMarlowe said:


> When Kennedy was elected President, a reporter asked John Wayne how he felt about it. John Wayne said, "Well, he's not the guy I voted for, but I sure hope he does a good job."
> 
> John Wayne was a classy guy and a real American. A lot could learn from him.


OMG, I agree with Phil! 




My only concerns are for my gun collection and self-defense rights, which I know Obama is actively against, and for the fact that I work in the defense industry, which historically takes a downturn during a democratic administration (Massive layouffs and sell-off of property here during Clinton). Otherwise, I echo The Duke's sentiment. Best of luck to us all.


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## PhilipMarlowe (Jan 23, 2004)

JeffG said:


> People, or at least the overwhelming majority of them, did not vote for him simply because he was black. It was by far his views, accomplishments thus far, ideas and strength of character that got him where he is. To most that supported him, his color was a welcome side note-not the reason. Just because I'm black does not mean that I'll vote for Flavor Flav. It still takes more and it should. And did.


Couldn't have said it any better myself:thumbsup:

I for one, am especially looking forward to a president that doesn't make me cringe or wince everytime everytime he speaks in public.

Not to mention, Obama is a great _American_ story. This guy came from not much and no where, and managed to work him way to President of the United States by hard work, determination, and some good ideas. This guy with "little political experience" out campaigned both the Republican and the _Clinton_ machines, again with hard work, determination, and some good ideas.

You don't get much more American than that, imho.


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## NeilUnreal (Feb 17, 2001)

JeffG said:


> People, or at least the overwhelming majority of them, did not vote for him simply because he was black. It was by far his views, accomplishments thus far, ideas and strength of character that got him where he is.


I think this is the most important point. Obama won because of who he is, not because of the superficial aspects of what he is. The American people were color-blind, looked at the man himself, and decided to cast their vote for him. 

Paradoxically, perhaps, this color-blindness itself makes it easier to celebrate this moment as a watershed event in African-American history. Because it extends so very far beyond just being a great moment for African-Americans. All Americans can truly celebrate the man and his accomplishment, free of politics and categories.

We talk about the American dream that any young man or woman, regardless of origin or circumstance, can grow up to become President. We woke up on November 5, 2008 to realize that the dream had become a reality.

-Neil


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## Steven Coffey (Jan 5, 2005)

I am glad we finally got a black President! Personally I can't stand the guy or his views. But hey that is just me. I didn't like McCain either. Either way I will cling to God and to my guns for as long as I can!


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## SteveR (Aug 7, 2005)

Apparently, there was also an election a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away ... here are some select political spots recently unearthed.


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## otto (Jan 1, 1970)

I agree with John Wayne! I hope he does a good job.


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## PhilipMarlowe (Jan 23, 2004)

SteveR said:


> Apparently, there was also an election a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away ... here are some select political spots recently unearthed.


"Lando Calrissian's only experience is as a community organizer in a city that's _not even connected to the ground!_"

Though I'm almost as tired of political satires as I am of pundits, that was pretty funny. I liked the "paid for by A-wing Pilots for Truth" as well.:thumbsup:


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## X15-A2 (Jan 21, 2004)

President-elect Obama has a lot of on-the-job training ahead of him, things like "reaching across the isle" and doing anything in a "bi-partisan" fashion which is something totally outside his experience to date. He talked a lot in the campaign about "uniting" but so far has never done anything to achieve that goal (not that a "united" government is a good thing, that way leads to tyranny) except within his own party (which is perhaps what he means).

Nancy Pelosi was talking about the same thing, what a laugh! She is the MOST partisan politician in DC right now but once again, maybe she means "uniting" within her own party as well.

His Presidency will be what it is. At least if he screws things up, we won't have to hear about it because there is no news agency that will say anything bad about "The One". Life will always be "beautiful" during his Presidency because nothing will be his fault. Just watch and see.

Now close the thread.


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## iamweasel (Aug 14, 2000)

I always enjoy having a good laugh. That first and last paragraph almost made me pee my pants. Thanks, I needed that today....I really did.


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## SteveR (Aug 7, 2005)

X15-A2 said:


> ...not that a "united" government is a good thing, that way leads to tyranny ...


Only if the government does things we don't like. Otherwise it's "now we finally have the chance to get things done without those other guys interfering!"


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## Cro-Magnon Man (Jun 11, 2001)

Weasel, where you been, haven't seen you here in ages...?


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## PhilipMarlowe (Jan 23, 2004)

X15-A2 said:


> President-elect Obama has a lot of on-the-job training ahead of him, things like "reaching across the isle" and doing anything in a "bi-partisan" fashion which is something totally outside his experience to date. He talked a lot in the campaign about "uniting" but so far has never done anything to achieve that goal (not that a "united" government is a good thing, that way leads to tyranny) except within his own party (which is perhaps what he means).
> 
> Nancy Pelosi was talking about the same thing, what a laugh! She is the MOST partisan politician in DC right now but once again, maybe she means "uniting" within her own party as well.
> 
> ...


Too bad Obama can't be more be more about being anti-divisive like the McCain/Palin ticket. Just because a senior McCain aide described his own running mate and her family as _*"Wasilla hillbillies looting Neiman Marcus from coast to coast"* _doesn't mean the Righties aren't all about love for their fellow man.:freak:

Hillbillies? What happened to all that love for the common man like good ol' Joe the Plumber?


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## JohnGuard (Jan 13, 2008)

if you watched SouthPark last night, you will know the REAL story behind the election!!!!!!!!!!


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## F91 (Mar 3, 2002)

I appreciate Hank and the mods leaving this open. People have been, for the most part, decent. 
I say we give the man a chance. 
If he screws up, I'll be the first to say so. Those of you who have already made up your minds, will you be the first to acknowledge his success?


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

X15-A2 said:


> President-elect Obama has a lot of on-the-job training ahead of him, things like "reaching across the isle" and doing anything in a "bi-partisan" fashion which is something totally outside his experience to date. He talked a lot in the campaign about "uniting" but so far has never done anything to achieve that goal (not that a "united" government is a good thing, that way leads to tyranny) except within his own party (which is perhaps what he means).
> 
> Nancy Pelosi was talking about the same thing, what a laugh! She is the MOST partisan politician in DC right now but once again, maybe she means "uniting" within her own party as well.
> 
> ...


Like to have the last word, eh?

Yeah, we all remember how the press never reported anything "bad" about President Clinton either. We all just collectively dreamed up Impeachment/Monica Lewinski/Whitewater/Travelgate/Cattlegate/Troopergate/Paula Jones/The McDougals/Vince Foster/Gennifer Flowers/Mogadishu/Wag The Dog/ etc, etc, etc, etc. 

Damned liberal media. All the time "filtering" things to make their man look good.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

^But the man _did _have great hair!


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## iamweasel (Aug 14, 2000)

I'm here every day, I just tend to enjoy reading more then posting...which is a good thing because since Moebius got going there is plenty to keep up with.


Cro-Magnon Man said:


> Weasel, where you been, haven't seen you here in ages...?


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## scotpens (Sep 6, 2003)

X15-A2 said:


> . . . (not that a "united" government is a good thing, that way leads to tyranny) . . .


Salient point. Confrontational and divisive politicking, even to the point of mudslinging and name-calling, is necessary to a healthy republic. It's all part of the messy business of freedom. Unity is good for getting things done, but too much "unity" can be too much of a good thing -- like having all your people wear the same color shirts, if you get my drift, and I think you do.


John P said:


> ^But the man _did _have great hair!


And lousy taste in women! :drunk:


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## Scheisseler (Jul 11, 2007)

flyingfrets said:


> he is NOT the first African-American President.
> 
> He's the first bi-racial President.


He's the son of an African man, I think he gets a pass on the hyphenate.



JeffG said:


> I haven't seen this many culturally diverse people celebrate since the Death Star blew up.


That's the funniest comment I've heard yet!


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## Seaview (Feb 18, 2004)

scotpens said:


> Unity is good for getting things done, but too much "unity" can be too much of a good thing -- like having all your people wear the same color shirts, if you get my drift, and I think you do. :drunk:


 
"Or like a team of horses beneath the same whip".
Mr. Spock, _Space Seed _


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## frankenstyrene (Oct 5, 2006)

Jeff, I know you'll understand what I mean when I say this: 

I've always been one to judge not by color of skin but content of character. A nice guy's a nice guy, and a scumbag is a scumbag. It's a mental or spiritual (if you prefer) problem; the amount of pigment means nothing.

That's why it struck me as odd during the campaign that almost 100% of comments having anything to do with race came from people firmly on Obama's side of the campaign, if not from within the O campaign itself. McCain - for all his faults, which I'll gladly list - never said a word about race until he was falsely accused of playing "the card."

My point is, yes, it's long past time many white folks looked past color. But I ask your heart on this: is it not also true that many black folks (and folks in between as well) refuse to do likewise, and some of them (national level figures I'll not name) continue to capitalize on it? 

Respect is reciprocal or it won't work, and if one side isn't holding up their end of the deal, what are the rest of us - black or white - supposed to do? This question is in no way aimed AT you; you just have a perspective I know I'd like to hear. Thanks in advance...

peace

PS To prove I'm all about the character, may I request some prime shots of Lt. Uhura? Or would that be sexist?


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## flyingfrets (Oct 19, 2001)

Scheisseler said:


> He's the son of an African man, I think he gets a pass on the hyphenate.


Indeed? He's also the son a a white woman...or doesn't that count?


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## scotpens (Sep 6, 2003)

frankenstyrene said:


> . . . yes, it's long past time many white folks looked past color. But I ask your heart on this: is it not also true that many black folks (and folks in between as well) refuse to do likewise, and some of them (national level figures I'll not name) continue to capitalize on it?


My experience is that the great majority of Americans of all races have, indeed, arrived at the point of looking past color. Those unnamed national figures who continue to exploit the "race card" are still living in the 1950s and ’60s. They're out of touch with the reality of modern America, and they will soon be historical footnotes.


frankenstyrene said:


> PS To prove I'm all about the character, may I request some prime shots of Lt. Uhura? Or would that be sexist?


You didn't mention which Uhura, so here's the 1968 version:









And the 2009 edition:


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## Auroranut (Jan 12, 2008)

How about both- at the same time? I'll supply the rubber chicken ....

Chris.


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## Scheisseler (Jul 11, 2007)

flyingfrets said:


> Indeed? He's also the son a a white woman...or doesn't that count?


My point was, he can claim something that most "full" African-Americans cannot. He is a direct descendant of an African -- as direct as you can get. Of course, if the term "African-American" means something other than an American citizen of African descent, maybe you can explain what that is. And then maybe we can go on splitting hairs finer and finer until we cause nuclear fission.


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## scotpens (Sep 6, 2003)

Seaview said:


> "Or like a team of horses beneath the same whip".
> Mr. Spock, _Space Seed _


The actual line is, "Like a team of animals under one whip?" But close enough for horseshoes.


[IMG-LEFT]http://img2.timeinc.net/people/i/2006/celebdatabase/charlizetheron/charlize_theron1_300_400.jpg[/IMG-LEFT]


Scheisseler said:


> My point was, he can claim something that most "full" African-Americans cannot. He is a direct descendant of an African -- as direct as you can get. Of course, if the term "African-American" means something other than an American citizen of African descent, maybe you can explain what that is. And then maybe we can go on splitting hairs finer and finer until we cause nuclear fission.


That's what the term is generally taken to mean -- meaning this woman is even more of a "real" African-American than Obama is!

Welcome to the tribe, sista! :wave:


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## JeffG (May 10, 2004)

Frakenstyrene (cool name by the way), You are largely correct. I was actually very proud of McCain when he had to tighten up that woman that called Obama an Arab, which I'm sure she saw all Arabs in a turban, curved shoes and wielding an arced sword. Racism does indeed suck and is still alive and well on all sides but thankfully through education and exposure to all different types of people, is, I suspect on the decline.

For blacks, where the fly in the ointment comes in is the unique history of oppression which on an historic timeline was not that long ago. There are obviously some blacks who don't like whites as well as whites who'll root for a black athlete carrying a ball, but won't accept one moving in down the street. 

Case in point; I'm a bit of a Formula One fan. Lewis Hamilton-the first black driver (or to be technically accurate, bi-racial) to ever compete in this sport was the subject of racial slurs while at the Spanish GP. Guess they didn't care that he was bi-racial or British, just 'black'. He went on to win the World Championship this year by the way.

It's a stupidity who's days should come to an end. That's why there's an undeniable significance to this Presidency. It shows that we are starting to take the much needed steps toward us all getting along. But those steps need to be taken by blacks, whites and everyone in between. Now, having said all that-you are correct sir! Oh, almost forgot; I wish I did have some decent pics of Uhuru in her prime-or indecent ones! Were it up to me, I would have pushed to have Beyonce be the new Uhuru, but let's just wait and see how their choice works out. :thumbsup:


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## SteveR (Aug 7, 2005)

Maybe the "first non-fully-white President" is more accurate?

Anyway, was Kennedy the first Catholic president? If so, I'll bet that was a big deal in the day.


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## mcdougall (Oct 28, 2007)

SteveR said:


> Maybe the "first non-fully-white President" is more accurate?
> 
> Anyway, was Kennedy the first Catholic president? If so, I'll bet that was a big deal in the day.


Yeah He was...and IT was...
Mcdee


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## JeffG (May 10, 2004)

Oooooh! Uhuru's looking pretty hot these days! Why she can raise my shields any day. She can set my phaser to stun. I'd like to be the Jeffries in her tube. She can launch my shuttle. She's the anti in my matter...etc, etc.:thumbsup:


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## scotpens (Sep 6, 2003)

JeffG said:


> Oooooh! Uhuru's looking pretty hot. Why she can raise my shields any day. She can set my phaser to stun. She can launch my shuttle. She's the anti in my matter...etc, etc.


Don't forget "She can open my hailing frequencies."


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## JeffG (May 10, 2004)

scotpens said:


> Don't forget "She can open my hailing frequencies."


Precisely!


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## mcdougall (Oct 28, 2007)

Beam me up Scotty 
Mcdee


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## flyingfrets (Oct 19, 2001)

Scheisseler said:


> My point was, he can claim something that most "full" African-Americans cannot. He is a direct descendant of an African -- as direct as you can get. Of course, if the term "African-American" means something other than an American citizen of African descent, maybe you can explain what that is. And then maybe we can go on splitting hairs finer and finer until we cause nuclear fission.


Understood. *My* point was that when people keep referring to him as African-American it sounds as though they're negating the *other* half of his heritage. That's considerably more than splitting hairs... 

Never the less, I'm still more concerned with his getting the job done than any other facet of the man.

Speaking of getting the job done...

Jeff, Lewis did a helluva job this year didn't he?:thumbsup: (serious F1 fan myself!).
Made Raikonnen look like a hack and put guys who've been doing that for 10 years + to shame. 

The racial garbage in Spain was revolting, but it's really nothing new. You should've heard the British back in '91-'92 when Schumacher exploded into F1. Though on some level I might understand the animosity toward the Germans given the history between them, but Schumacher wasn't even *born* when those events took place...on that level, I thought the behavior was inexcusable. To hear the talk at the time, you'd have thought he was single-handedly responsible for the bombing of England.

Same with Hamilton...what did he ever do to those people other than give them the great racing show they'd been complaining they hadn't seen in years?

The cream of the crop always tends to rise to the top...regardless how spoiled the milk under it might be. Here's hoping the same holds true for the Obama presidency...


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## scotpens (Sep 6, 2003)

So now this has turned into the Formula 1 racing thread?

I thought we were talking about Charlize Theron.


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## JeffG (May 10, 2004)

F1 cars have sleek curves too! See how that works?


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## superduty455 (Jun 21, 2000)

F1 I can get into. I'm a diehard Massa/Ferrari fan(or Torro Rosso). I also love to watch Kimi go at it. As far as his personality, iceman fits.

I was impressed with Hamilton last year, but you could see he was still making mistakes, as the China race proved. This year he was just as good as last however I feel he didn't deserve the Championship. He won it by pure luck as Kimi did last year.

Is LH a great driver? Yes, but he's not made many friends in F1 that's for sure. With that said, all the great Champions haven't made many friends on there way to the top. 

I'm hoping next year is a good season, the F1 sport needs it.
The FIA needs to just leave things alone. Toyota, Ferrari both talking about leaving if they change the engine programs to reduce costs(of course Ferrari says they are leaving every year). F1 to me is a very technological sport. I'd hate to see them driving all the same thing with the same spec engine etc. It would end up too much like the other big car sport.

I wonder how many more winglets they can jam on those cars! LOL

Chris


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## Seaview (Feb 18, 2004)

Voting for Obama because he's "black" makes about as much sense as voting for Mitt Romney because of his haircut. 
I voted against him not because he's african-american, but because he's a socialist, and socialism (in its many different forms) has cost the world far too much in human misery and death in the 20th century; the dead include 60,000,000 in Maoist Red China during the "cultural revolution", 30,000,000 in Soviet Union (including it's post-war occupied territories), 40,000,000 under German National Socialism (Nazism), 8,000,000 under Corporate Socialism (Italian Fascism). 
IF the Democratic Party was still the same party of JFK, whose immortal inaguration speech included the historic phrase, "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country", I would've been a democrat today. But because that once honorable party (with the exception of its segregation-tainted history) has been hijacked by the "what can my country do for ME" crowd, I proudly stand as an American, who puts the welfare of his country ahead of his party affiliations and loyalties. :thumbsup:


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## SteveR (Aug 7, 2005)

You're right Seaview, voting for him because of his race makes no sense. As much as voting against him because of his race.

But I don't think you know what socialism is, Seaview. You've cited Communism and Fascism under power-mad dictators. A little bit of socialism added to a capitalist system brings Social Security, government pensions and health care to it. See how you feel about that little bit of socialism when you're old, sick, or out of work.

Besides, if you'll listen to what Obama really says and does, he's motivating people to take responsibility to help solve the problem together. This isn't the same post-Kennedy democratic party.

And "what can my country do for me" sounds a lot like trickle-down economics and corporate tax breaks. We've seen how that works.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Si. I voted against him because I don't like his policies. I'm not exactly thrilled with the republicans these days, lemme tell ya, but they're somewhat less onerous to me than the dems. Lesser of two evils kinda thing.

Which kinda makes me sad, because I'd be delighted to vote for a non-old-white-guy candidate. I just need one I _agree _with! :lol:


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## iamweasel (Aug 14, 2000)

It's refreshingly funny to see people post old, worn out talking points....whats funnier is when they aren't even true...I quess thats okay or else the word sheeple would be useless.
Lets just watch and see how much more one party turns obstructionist. I'll say neither side is perfect but generally we have one party that at least does a little for the people and one party that runs them over. I'm not a one party person either, I vote for the person not the party.


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## F91 (Mar 3, 2002)

The problem with "socialism" is that it doesn't seem like people understand what it actually means. Today, you drove to work on a socialized road while being protected by your socialized Police force, Fire Dept. and Army.Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security ring a bell? 
Exactly how is that a bad thing?


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## otto (Jan 1, 1970)

A little socialism is ok, Like the Post office for example. To much of it may not be good. I'm also pretty sure that raising taxes on business large and small will mean many will either go under or have to lay people off. Also raising taxes on the top 5% will not pay for all the programs he's promised. I've got a feeling he will raise taxes on everyone making over 50,000 a year, and he still wont have enough to pay for the stuff he has said he will do. He says he wants to give tax breaks to 95% of the workers, but only about 60% make enough to have to pay taxes anyway. Of course thats pretty much politics as usual, promise things you cant deliver to get elected...LOL..


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

F91 said:


> Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security ring a bell?
> Exactly how is that a bad thing?


In the past three months, my elderly parents, both of whom suffer from Alzheimer's, have been hospitalized 3 separate times. My mother fell and broke her hip. My father suffered a major heart attack. The cost of those three hospitalizations alone? Over $100,000 so far and the bills are still coming in. My father was a teacher and my mother was a secretary. They both worked hard for 40 years, paid their taxes, and went to church every Sunday. But they didn't get wealthy.

You better believe Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security aren't a bad thing.


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## Scheisseler (Jul 11, 2007)

F91 said:


> The problem with "socialism" is that it doesn't seem like people understand what it actually means.


But that makes it much easier to throw the term around. 

The United States is still to the political right of every country in Europe. It's almost laughable -- no, strike the almost, it IS laughable -- to hear the policies of any American politician described as "socialist."

At one time there was actually a notion of sacrifice in this country. Giving a little extra back to the country whose system of capitalism allowed you to get stinking rich was actually viewed as a good thing. Then came the 80's with the "greed is good" philosophy and all that went out the window. Now we're fighting two wars and our economy is in the toilet -- yet asking the rich to help shoulder a little more of the responsibility is "socialism." Right. :freak:


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## sbaxter (Jan 8, 2002)

I'm breaking my silence on political posts this once, given that this thread has thus far remained civil, despite the odd wobble here and there.

Four years ago, I was one of the more passionate and vocal conservatives on these boards. This year, you haven't heard a peep out of me on anything political (other than a couple of posts asking that people keep politics off the boards). My experience four years ago was emotionally draining -- I had a daily headache. I even received threats of physical violence from one member of this board -- which really made me sad, to be honest, because he's a guy with whom I agree almost all the time on everything other than politics. We could be friends, but he is more interested in seeing me as a political enemy than anything else. Regardless, four years ago, my candidate won. When it was over, I was just glad it had ended and sent PMs to that effect some of those with whom I had sparred and yet remained friends.

In the four years that followed, my candidate revealed himself not to have been the president I had hoped he would be. He did some things right, and some things very wrong -- although what I see as his faults and missteps would probably be very different from the things those on the left didn't like about him. My party drifted away from what I had wanted it to be and what it had been. I am no less a conservative than I was four years ago, even though I can't say the same for my party. I discovered that though I had to bite my tongue from time to time, figuratively speaking, I felt better when I didn't spend hours a day crafting responses to some online political argument. 

In the just-passed election, again we were presented with a Republican presidential candidate who I knew would get some things right and some things very wrong. I voted for him because I thought he would do more things I agreed with than the other candidate. In other words, his policies were less troubling to me -- but I still approached this election knowing that whoever won, I wasn't going to get what I wanted.

So Obama won. It is historic, and I completely agree with the John Wayne quote posted earlier. I'm certainly not sorry to see a black man win the office. I would have been happy to vote for him if he had been a conservative -- I have voted for conservative blacks in the past -- I voted for Alan Keyes in the primary a few years ago, and I was tempted to vote for him again this time around in the general election, to be honest, but he was only on the ballot in Florida and something like three other states. I would have voted for someone like J.C. Watts or Condoleeza Rice. But Obama won, and now I wish him a successful presidency because he will be the president of the nation I love. And in four years, I hope the Republicans will give me a real conservative candidate (and not just a real conservative running mate).

Here's the thing I forgot to add here earlier, but I'll put it in now because it isn't about a political point, but rather about the role that politics plays in our lives ...

For those of us who are concerned or even fearful of what an Obama presidency will mean for our country, especially in terms of the economy. I share your concern; it is one of the reasons I couldn't vote for him. I'm not fearful, however, partly because I choose not to be -- I just refuse to live in fear. But here's the thing -- several years ago, I got into a considerable amount of financial trouble. The seeds of the specific trouble I had were laid when Bill Clinton was in office, but things really came to a head during George W. Bush's tenure. I wound up facing a foreclosure; it was breathing down my neck hot and heavy until I discovered a way out. But you know what? The trouble I was in wasn't caused by Bill Clinton or George W. Bush. _I_ was to blame -- it was my own stupidity with a dollar sign in front -- "$tupidity" if you like. Over the course of this year, I've discovered a plan to extricate myself from the problem I created for myself -- and this very day, I'm paying off the last of a nearly $15,000 debt that I first started attacking near the first of this year. I cannot overstate how good that feels, especially considering where I was just a year ago. Back then, if you had told me I would even be capable of paying off such a large debt in _two_ years (let alone the single year it has taken), I'd have said you were crazy. I got myself into the trouble, and I'm getting myself out. No president will take the blame for getting me into trouble, and no president will get the credit for getting me out. I did it myself, good and bad.

My point is this: _You_ are responsible for your own success or failure. Government policies _may_ affect the speed at which you can accomplish success, but you are responsible for whether it happens or not. Take control of your own future, and make it happen. Don't wait for the president or anyone else to do it for you -- and if it doesn't happen, don't blame the president or anyone in Washington. Accept responsibility, dust yourself off, and try again.

With that, I'll now return to political radio silence -- I like it there, overall. I have energy to spend on my wife and son that I wouldn't have had four years ago after a day of political posting.

Qapla'

SSB


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## Mitchellmania (Feb 14, 2002)

Seaview said:


> Voting for Obama because he's "black" makes about as much sense as voting for Mitt Romney because of his haircut.
> I voted against him not because he's african-american, but because he's a socialist, and socialism (in its many different forms) has cost the world far too much in human misery and death in the 20th century; the dead include 60,000,000 in Maoist Red China during the "cultural revolution", 30,000,000 in Soviet Union (including it's post-war occupied territories), 40,000,000 under German National Socialism (Nazism), 8,000,000 under Corporate Socialism (Italian Fascism).
> IF the Democratic Party was still the same party of JFK, whose immortal inaguration speech included the historic phrase, "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country", I would've been a democrat today. But because that once honorable party (with the exception of its segregation-tainted history) has been hijacked by the "what can my country do for ME" crowd, I proudly stand as an American, who puts the welfare of his country ahead of his party affiliations and loyalties. :thumbsup:


Well said! He's still a politician and let's see the promises he breaks (especially to the middle class). I work with many people who came from Eastern Europe- ask them how they feel about Socialism.


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## F91 (Mar 3, 2002)

Maybe you guys should perhaps READ ALL of the posts, not just the ones that support a specific ideology. That's what has gotten us in this mess. For all of the anti-socialists-
*
In the past three months, my elderly parents, both of whom suffer from Alzheimer's, have been hospitalized 3 separate times. My mother fell and broke her hip. My father suffered a major heart attack. The cost of those three hospitalizations alone? Over $100,000 so far and the bills are still coming in. My father was a teacher and my mother was a secretary. They both worked hard for 40 years, paid their taxes, and went to church every Sunday. But they didn't get wealthy.

You better believe Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security aren't a bad thing.*

You guys think that is bad? Caring for people, other Americans is bad?
Not in my country it isn't.


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## PhilipMarlowe (Jan 23, 2004)

I love all the guys throwing around "socialist" tags days after their President and Presidential candidate insisted we need to bail out Wall Street with 700 billion dollars that, once again, goes right into the pockets of the rich. Health care for kids, we can't afford it! Bunch of rich guys mismanage a bank into the toilet, Here's a few billion! 

I love all the guys talking about "family values" while voting for a guy that divorced his first wife while she was recovering from a auto accident to marry a younger richer beer heiress, while calling the Christian family man still married to his first wife a muslim terrorist.

I love all the guys talking about how Pelosi & Co are going to waste the taxpayers money, while refusing to acknowledge that we're bankrupt because we've spent a trillion dollars over the last seven years on a war and have absolutely NOTHING to show for it. Halliburton, Black Water, and the oil companies have lots to show for it, the taxpayers not so much.

What I love is that, for once, the majority of the country see's thru it all. 

And Barrack's a better man than me, 'cause the first thing I would have done was name that new puppy "Maverick".


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## SteveR (Aug 7, 2005)

sbaxter said:


> My point is this: _You_ are responsible for your own success or failure. Government policies _may_ affect the speed at which you can accomplish success, but you are responsible for whether it happens or not. Take control of your own future, and make it happen. Don't wait for the president or anyone else to do it for you -- and if it doesn't happen, don't blame the president or anyone in Washington. Accept responsibility, dust yourself off, and try again.


Excellent point, sbaxter, in addition to your other points. Thank you for a well-considered post.

I have a question for you though, not meant to be combative in any way. How do you define the word "conservative"? Do you agree with this definition?

On another note: it might be interesting for us to check our position on the political compass when we get a chance. It's a quiz.


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## sbaxter (Jan 8, 2002)

SteveR said:


> How do you define the word "conservative"?


When I click on the link, I get a long list of various definitions in different contexts. 

I'd have a hard time defining it, to be honest. It covers a lot of ground. I'd hesitate to choose another's definition without being able to expand -- at great length -- on what it means and does not mean to me. It's too easy to try to be succinct and have someone else fill in the blanks they perceive with things they think are true, but actually don't apply to me.

Not much of an answer, but I just really don't want to get into it too much here. I hope you understand -- no disrespect intended. :thumbsup:

And I see this thread is starting to go off the rails with the same "Us Good Guys vs. the Inhuman Monsters on the Other Side of the Aisle" stance that usually sinks such threads. 

Qapla'

SSB


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## otto (Jan 1, 1970)

PhilipMarlowe said:


> I love all the guys throwing around "socialist" tags days after their President and Presidential candidate insisted we need to bail out Wall Street with 700 billion dollars that, once again, goes right into the pockets of the rich. Health care for kids, we can't afford it! Bunch of rich guys mismanage a bank into the toilet, Here's a few billion!
> 
> I love all the guys talking about "family values" while voting for a guy that divorced his first wife while she was recovering from a auto accident to marry a younger richer beer heiress, while calling the Christian family man still married to his first wife a muslim terrorist.
> 
> ...


Well it was 700 billion, but they added 150 billion on to that for a total of 850 billion iirc. and Pelosi is hoping Obama will add a second 350 billion bailout on top of that. And I'm pretty sure hes given the go ahead on that. They havnt even spent the 1st bailout money yet. And now they need more? ..... He also wants to spend about 4 trillion on his "promises" The country is already heavily in debt. we need to CUT SPENDING..not spend more! Ahh well...


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## otto (Jan 1, 1970)

And a bunch of the 1st bailout was supposed to get lent to banks to free up the credit crunch. They have been using some of the money to buy up other banks! LOL.. And a bunch is supposed to go to buying up bad mortgages of guys who bought homes they couldnt afford and had no down payments and bad credit historys. A bunch of them were even illegal aliens!


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## frankenstyrene (Oct 5, 2006)

JeffG said:


> Racism does indeed suck and is still alive and well on all sides but thankfully through education and exposure to all different types of people, is, I suspect on the decline.


I agree, and thank you for your thoughtfulness and honesty. 

Let me clarify my earlier comment: we both know there are whites and blacks with multi-million dollar careers built on keeping racial fires stoked _even though they say they want the fires to die_. Thus they perpetuate racial tensions rather than help BURY them. It is the basest form of hypocrisy, and the term "race pimp" could not be more appropriate, white or black, because that's exactly what they are. 

But here's the real kick in the sack: if you dare point out their two-facedness, YOU (if you're white) are accused of being a racist, against racial healing, etc. If you're black, you're called a sellout, Tom, Oreo, traitor, house _______, etc. And all for just speaking the d*mned TRUTH! 

Am I the only one _*INFURIATED*_ by this? Please tell me I'm not.



> For blacks, where the fly in the ointment comes in is the unique history of oppression which on an historic timeline was not that long ago.


Granted, but imho it's unique only insofar as it was so recent...trace anyone's ancestry back far enough and someone in their family tree was a slave to someone else. I say that not to dismiss your point, as there are many who can't or won't let it go. I say it because the fact you pointed out brings us right back to MLK's point: do we continue to insist on judging - and BEING judged! - by our color, or by our character? Do we dwell on, even live in, the past? Or do we let it be the past and move on?

I'm probably asking questions for which there are no answers at present. I'll just go look at the Uhuras now...


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## sbaxter (Jan 8, 2002)

SteveR said:


> it might be interesting for us to check our position on the political compass when we get a chance. It's a quiz.


I took the quiz. Some of the questions were worded in a manner that was a little more absolute than I was entirely comfortable with -- but I answered them anyway -- so take that into account. But my scores were:

Economic Left/Right: 4.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.05

So I scored almost dead in the middle between Authoritarian and Libertarian. Between Economic Left and Right, I was on the right, not quite in the middle of the right side. Make of that what you will.

Qapla'

SSB


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

frankenstyrene said:


> Granted, but imho it's unique only insofar as it was so recent...trace anyone's ancestry back far enough and someone in their family tree was a slave to someone else.


Hmmm. I won't argue the second part of your statement because it's sort of impossible to rebut but the first part of it seems at the very least callously dismissive. 

Especially considering these words: _

"We hold these truths to be self-evident: That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness..."

_The racial history of America is "unique" indeed.


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## PhilipMarlowe (Jan 23, 2004)

On a lighter note, am I the only one here that thinks "The Wassilla Hillbillies" would be a _great_ name for a band?


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## sbaxter (Jan 8, 2002)

PhilipMarlowe said:


> On a lighter note, am I the only one here that thinks "The Wassilla Hillbillies" would be a _great_ name for a band?


A bluegrass band in the making.

I hear phrases on a daily basis that make me think, "That would be a good name for a band."

Qapla'

SSB


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## Seaview (Feb 18, 2004)

"The Naples Nitwit" would be a better sounding sit-com. :wave:


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## PhilipMarlowe (Jan 23, 2004)

Seaview said:


> "The Naples Nitwit" would be a better sounding sit-com. :wave:




You guys stick with that whole dismissive insult thing, it's working _so_ well for you.


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## Auroranut (Jan 12, 2008)

Oh, I feel the love........

Chris.


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## frankenstyrene (Oct 5, 2006)

Zorro said:


> Hmmm. I won't argue the second part of your statement because it's sort of impossible to rebut but the first part of it seems at the very least callously dismissive.


Not intended to be at all; I just see it as a fact.



> Especially considering these words: _
> 
> "We hold these truths to be self-evident: That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness..."_


Are you saying the Founders considered blacks to be men? I believe that _some_ of them opposed slavery as inhuman and evil, but that's as far as my knowledge on the subject goes. I've never read what any of them said on the matter either way...now you got me curious. But to speculate a bit:

If they did not consider blacks to be men, then owning and using slaves to build this nation while, at the same time, proclaiming liberty for all men is _in that context_ perfectly consistent behavior. The statement you quoted simply would not have applied to blacks _in the Founder's minds._ Whatever we may think it means today, it cannot reasonably be wielded as a club to bludgeon them for self-contradicting hypocrisy, if that is your intent, as they would have been neither inconsistent nor hypocritical. Likewise, my claiming American slavery is unique only in its relative recentness would not be callous nor dismissive, but simply factual. 

On the other hand, if they DID consider blacks to be men, thus "endowed by their Creator..." etc, then the Founders who supported slavery were nothing less than evil. 

Whichever is the case, implying 230 years later that "all men" was written intending to include black as well as white...which I believe is your point...well, I'd have to see that proved from the Founder's own writings, which I'm now very interested in reading.


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## PhilipMarlowe (Jan 23, 2004)

Don't know how many of you heard, but it was reported tonight that the voice and face of the anti-socialism crowd, good ol' Joe the Plumber, has been on welfare. Twice.

And the icing on the cake, the story was broke by Fox News.

Have a great weekend everybody


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## JeffG (May 10, 2004)

And the hits just keep on coming!


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## Prince of Styrene II (Feb 28, 2000)

He also got a speeding ticket a couple days ago.

Whoopdee frakin' do. Why is this national news?

Sometimes I'm so ashamed about being in news & the stupid arse stories that are done.


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## PhilipMarlowe (Jan 23, 2004)

Prince of Styrene II said:


> He also got a speeding ticket a couple days ago.


Nope, the cop let Joe off with a warning after he recognized him.

Two things ol' Joe can't abide are socialism and celebrity:freak:


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

frankenstyrene said:


> Not intended to be at all; I just see it as a fact.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you're the man who isn't considered to _be_ a man by the men who hold ultimate power over you, then the philosophical and intellectual "consistency" of those men indeed manifests itself as a very tangible "evil".


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## JeffG (May 10, 2004)

And on a lighter note; going back briefly to the subject of modeling AND Formula 1, here's a link for those interested to one of the finest sources of car kits available-Grand Prix Models.

http://www.grandprixmodels.com/

There are just tons of racing, exotic, antique and every type of car kit in between. Most however are in 1/43rd scale which seems to be the dominant choice in England; Here's some shots of one I made a few years ago of a Jordan Peugot. This is from a Manufacturer called Meri Kits. Keep an eye out also for Tameo who also produce fine 1/43rd scale kits. Generally these kits are in white metal with a slew of fine photoetch brass pieces for wings, struts, etc.

Eventually I'm gonna order a couple more from the recent season, but at approx $100 or so a pop for a 1/43rd scale kit, it'll have to wait a little while.


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## flyingfrets (Oct 19, 2001)

JeffG said:


> And on a lighter note; going back briefly to the subject of modeling AND Formula 1, here's a link for those interested to one of the finest sources of car kits available-Grand Prix Models.
> 
> http://www.grandprixmodels.com/
> 
> ...


WOW! They've more than *doubled* in price since I last built one! I had a pretty nice collection of 60's & 70's Ferrari road cars (plus a few assorted F1 & Can Am kits) in 1/43, which I liked because I could display a few more of them in the same amount of space...but gave it up because $35 - $40 a kit was "too much"!!! 

The detail on those smaller scale cars was nothing to sneeze at *then*. With the advances in casting & photoetch in the last 15 years, I can only imagine what they're like now.

Thanks for the link BTW. Surfing over there now...


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