# Always metalic blue TOS dorsal?



## Light23 (Jun 14, 2016)

I was a Kodak film tech / color specialist for 20 years and have worked in 35mm color film restoration for years. (Until digital took over.lol) 

The reason I am bringing this up is because I believe that the leading edge of the neck had always been metallic gray/skyblue.

I have heard that it was only this way for the pilot episodes...but... well look see...


























































I don't know if the restoration team even realizes this.
(I may be too late to warn them...)

The film stocks varied form shot to shot and the optical printing process for special effects made the image 'ca-ca' for lack of a better term...but...its staring us in the face.

I don't even think it was sprayed down to flatten the reflections as has been theorized before.
I think it was left unaltered from the 2nd pilot. Reflections and all.

I have more pics to post.
Discuss :|


----------



## Opus Penguin (Apr 19, 2004)

The blue dorsal has been discussed before on this forum, and in some shots during the pilot it is very prominent. I am pretty sure the restoration team is aware of this. But, and I am not an expert so maybe Gary Kerr can jump in here, I believe this was painted over when the model was lit up during the production.

Check out post #6 on this forum:

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/99-sc...5192-round-2-1-350-tos-enterprise-tamiya.html


----------



## Light23 (Jun 14, 2016)

Opus Penguin said:


> I believe this was painted over when the model was lit up during the production.


Everyone believes that. Thats the problem.

Most of these pictures I posted ARE of the series Enterprise and only two are of the pilot Enterprise.

I followed the link you posted and a user here by the name jaws62666 said: 
" the blue was only on the Pike pilot version. The production ship was gray with a grey/ green stripe on the front."

I don't know if he was told this by one of the original builders, but all of my years dealing with and color restoring 35mm negatives tells me this assumption is wrong.

The following shots are taken from the Blu-ray TOS episode 'Is there no Truth in beauty" with NO color correction:









Normal shot with the bluescreen key 'kinda off key' and blue light spill over.

Blue screen key has been dialed down by production but at the loss of blue in the neck/dorsal.









Series production shot unaltered that CLEARLY shows the metallic blue neck.


















If I had to pick a color for what it looked liked in real life WITHOUT the film stock color shifts, it would be Tamiya Polycarbonate PS-49 Metallic Blue Spray Paint 86049.

























Heres the Tamiya paint match









Although they probably did it this way in 1965...


----------



## irishtrek (Sep 17, 2005)

Never noticed that before and to my eyes the leading edge of the neck looks to be a blueish grey in the photos posted here.


----------



## Light23 (Jun 14, 2016)

The line that separates the colors looks slightly raised between the gray hull and blue. (Consistent of masking off the blue with tape and painting a thicker amount of gray hull color paint over it, creating a 'paint application thickness variable edge' that some might have taken for a drawn line...

I believe the only thing that was done to the model afterwards was light charcoal type weathering added to the base of the dorsal/neck and the front facing lower edge of the dorsal/neck. (See pictures in post 1)

I see greater amounts of reflection off of the blue dorsal edge than anywhere else. Thats why I believe it wasn't even dulled, but just left as is with minor weathering on the bottom front lower edge and lower sides.

Just a little amount of warm yellowish tungsten stage light of the 60's will make light sky blue look light gray green.









Restoration
Original Image









Color restored









Color corrected








How it would appear to the unaided eye on that late afternoon in 1965


----------



## SteveR (Aug 7, 2005)

Thanks for looking into that!


----------



## RossW (Jan 12, 2000)

Hopefully Gary will weigh in and add his expertise; I know he's busy updating the colour guide for PL as they prepare to release the 1/350 smooth saucer and re-issued full kit with the smooth saucer.

I think the blue leading edge has been known for some time; it's on the 1/350 PL paint guide and I think the 1/1000 kit has a groove there to indicate where it should be painted. What colour of blue is certainly very interesting to me, but I'd also like to know whether the trailing edge also had the blue; there was some indication of that a few years ago, but I don't remember from where.


----------



## KUROK (Feb 2, 2004)

Light23,
I think your theory is correct.
Seems like the metallic blue was left alone only on the leading edge of the dorsal.


----------



## Paulbo (Sep 16, 2004)

Considering that the leading edge of the dorsal was blue even for the crappy old restoration, and that Gary Kerr is one obsessive SOB when it comes to this ship, I'd have to say, "yes, the restoration team ... realizes this". (As an example of their obsessiveness, they even did cross section photo-micrographs of the paint that show the successive repaintings over the years - original, repaint for the second pilot, re-repaint for the series, and re-re-re-paint for the "restoration".)


----------



## lunadude (Oct 21, 2006)

Paulbo said:


> ...Gary Kerr is one obsessive SOB...


I raise a toast to obsessive SOBs!


----------



## Steve H (Feb 8, 2009)

As I believe has been stated before, Gary K is sitting on a MOUNTAIN of data, some of which is still being researched, that he can't talk about yet.

What we have here is what I call 'pottery shards' level of cinema archeology, trying to decode the past from limited information. I don't question the pedigree of the original poster, he's making some impressive observations and SCIENCE, but, what context might be missing? Gary should have the entire history of paint on the Enterprise soon, so let's not leap to assuming something that might prove absolutely false, hah? 

Datapoints I believe missing in this discussion are: 1. What kind of camera took the pictures? 2. What was the air quality like the day the photos were taken?

Camera. Was it a SLR or a cheap Instamatic? Was a filter used? The quality and kind of lens would be a factor,wouldn't it? What I see with my eyes are snapshots, not archival documentation. Quick pics taken to both show the client (Desilu/Roddenberry) that there is a finished product, but likely to also serve as an item in the builder's portfolio, to hopefully impress future clients.

Air quality. People forget just how bad the air was getting by 1965. While it wasn't quite the 'end of the world' look of the late '60s-early '70s, there was plenty of smog going on, skies over L.A. would have that yellow-ish or brown-ish tint we don't really see much of anymore (unless you're in China). I can't help but think that smog might shift colors a bit, maybe. 

Now, those 4 photos upthread are very interesting. Given what we've been told, I think that the 3rd one is likely more accurate and the bottom one, the 4th, maybe a bit 'overprocessed' and too light. 

One thing that jumped out at me was the old Bell Telephone sign in the background. I recall those being a blue color, maybe close to a navy blue. What color were California license plates circa 1965?

Context is my big bugaboo.


----------



## robn1 (Nov 17, 2012)

Well no filter, air quality issues or anything else would color the neck metallic blue and leave the rest untouched. The metallic look was less obvious on screen in The Cage, but the blue color was evident, and can be seen on the leading edge on the series version.


----------



## Steve H (Feb 8, 2009)

robn1 said:


> Well no filter, air quality issues or anything else would color the neck metallic blue and leave the rest untouched. The metallic look was less obvious on screen in The Cage, but the blue color was evident, and can be seen on the leading edge on the series version.


Certainly, going by the pictures, I can't disagree. 

I will say, and it's either my eyes or my monitor resolution, it sort of looks like the nacelle pylons, the inside face, are the same color. I'm assuming that's an artifact of shadow. 

I'm guessing the later 'leading edge only' color thing was due to the alterations made to install lights, I thought I saw a pic that showed that part was a single piece of wood, so the paint demarcation line may actually be the seam. Maybe. It's all in Gary's hands.


----------



## Light23 (Jun 14, 2016)

Steve H said:


> Now, those 4 photos upthread are very interesting. Given what we've been told, I think that the 3rd one is likely more accurate and the bottom one, the 4th, maybe a bit 'overprocessed' and too light.


Your right about the 4th pic being over processed as you say. I did that to account for the film and give the image a semi accurate representation to that of a human eye on that day which doesn't see the way a camera does.:wink2:






Steve H said:


> it sort of looks like the nacelle pylons, the inside face, are the same color. I'm assuming that's an artifact of shadow.


You are correct Steve, Its the reflection of the blue sky filling in the shadow. The blue from the sky is causing the shadow to appear blue.

Notice the shadows of the men are blue also...


----------



## actias (May 19, 2003)

I know this all speculation (it's fun) but I was in the camera repair business and have some education on filming and lighting. The idea that the neck was a metallic blue looks correct in the photos but also makes sense from a filming standpoint. That big dish would have created a heavy shadow over the neck (especially with the bright studio lights). This would take away from the illusion of size of the big starship. So by painting the neck a light metallic blue, the lighting would be altered enough to compensate for the heavy shadow. If it was then removed it may have been because the compensation was too exaggerated. A great example of what I'm trying to say is the Star Wars Darth Vader helmets. Originally people thought the helmet was all black. If the helmet had been painted all black, when it was filmed, all the facial and facet detail in the face would be lost in the shadows of the helmet from being all black. So, by painting it with alternating gunmetal and black, you FORCE the detail out of the shadows for filming.


----------



## Steve H (Feb 8, 2009)

actias said:


> I know this all speculation (it's fun) but I was in the camera repair business and have some education on filming and lighting. The idea that the neck was a metallic blue looks correct in the photos but also makes sense from a filming standpoint. That big dish would have created a heavy shadow over the neck (especially with the bright studio lights). This would take away from the illusion of size of the big starship. So by painting the neck a light metallic blue, the lighting would be altered enough to compensate for the heavy shadow. If it was then removed it may have been because the compensation was too exaggerated. A great example of what I'm trying to say is the Star Wars Darth Vader helmets. Originally people thought the helmet was all black. If the helmet had been painted all black, when it was filmed, all the facial and facet detail in the face would be lost in the shadows of the helmet from being all black. So, by painting it with alternating gunmetal and black, you FORCE the detail out of the shadows for filming.


You're absolutely correct. Depending on the subject and the desired appearance, coloring almost becomes 'stage makeup', shading used to accentuate curves and angles. 

Continuing with the Darth Vader helmet example, that thing NEVER looked as cool, as impressive as it did in 'Star Wars'. I had always assumed it was the switch from metal to fiberglass (and that likely IS a factor) but I think it has to do with the 'stage makeup' paint work. The planes and facets just don't seem as defined. 

Blah blah. We'll see much more about filming models and 'stage makeup' coloring when the discussion slides to the TV Series version of the 11 foot Enterprise.


----------



## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

Or even 1964!


----------



## Light23 (Jun 14, 2016)

(A couple of new pictures showing the unaltered blue neck)

















Let talk about reflections for a short moment.

It appears there is no clearcoat over the neck dorsal. (There might have been a THIN layer put on the 11 footer, but that would not translate well to a smaller sized model. (Scale people...scale:thumbsup

So when you paint your model use JUST the reflective Tamiyia paint. You don't want any clearcoat to make it super shiny. Juuuussst shiny enough that its more reflective than the flat hull gray color.
Using just the Tamiya Polycarbonate PS-49 Metallic Blue Spray Paint with out dulling it over and/or the other extreme, making it shinier with clearcoat.

Weathering: Most of the pictures on the previous page shows consistent weathering on the base of the dorsal on the side and front. Seek to imitate that specific pattern with perhaps a q-tip rubbed in pencil lead or powdered charcoal on your model whether its a 1/350 PL kit or a Diamond Select Enterprise.

































(Right click, view image to see more detail.) -Larger image-
The weathering appears to be half way up the front facing edge of the dorsal (in the middle of the front dorsal in a small 'strip'), with a little area of no weathering and then a small amount of weathering again near the saucer. (This shot of the 11 foot model from an episode is not for color accuracy, but rather for HD weathering detail examination.)












23


----------



## Light23 (Jun 14, 2016)

One more...


----------



## Gary K (Aug 26, 2002)

Paulbo said:


> Considering that the leading edge of the dorsal was blue even for the crappy old restoration, and that Gary Kerr is one obsessive SOB when it comes to this ship, I'd have to say, "yes, the restoration team ... realizes this". (As an example of their obsessiveness, they even did cross section photo-micrographs of the paint that show the successive repaintings over the years - original, repaint for the second pilot, re-repaint for the series, and re-re-re-paint for the "restoration".)


Not to worry. This obsessive SOB has actually touched original "blue dorsal" paint - without wearing purple gloves! To understand the colors on the model at any particular point in time, you have to play sci-fi archeologist and document the entire history of the model - and like I've said before, the subject of color is hard, even when you're staring at the original paint. We've had access to unpublished photos of the model, and have done test sandings all over the 11-footer. I think we've got most everything nailed down, colorwise, but we have to remember not to get too cocky. Seems like every time we think we know everything, some new factoid pops up & partially rewrites the story. Once the research is finally complete (for the time being), we'll get all the color & design info out to modelers.

Obsessively yours,

Gary

PS: Ross - there was NO blue on the trailing edge of the Production dorsal.


----------



## Light23 (Jun 14, 2016)




----------



## RossW (Jan 12, 2000)

Gary K said:


> PS: Ross - there was NO blue on the trailing edge of the Production dorsal.


Whew! Thanks for confirming that, Gary!


----------



## asalaw (Dec 23, 2012)

My only quibble with the blue + tungsten theory is that they would have been using tungsten-balanced film, which shifts the tungsten color temp back to white. The skypans that were lighting the bluescreen were tungsten also, and there's no evidence of color-correcting gels on them in any photos that I've seen, so their blue screen would've shifted to green as well, and the matte wouldn't have worked. Back then their mattes were created by reprinting the bluescreen footage on high-contrast B&W film, which turns blue into white and creates the matte. Green wouldn't have worked. 

I'm not saying the model had any green on it, just raising the question about the tungsten thing.

EDIT -- OTOH, if they used daylight stock, lit with tungsten, and didn't gel the lights or filter the camera, then you _would_ get green. Certainly possible, but that brings us back to the matte issue.


----------



## asalaw (Dec 23, 2012)

Gary K said:


> Not to worry. This obsessive SOB has actually touched original "blue dorsal" paint - without wearing purple gloves!


That's one small touch for a Trekkie, one giant paw for Trek-kind.


----------



## Light23 (Jun 14, 2016)

asalaw said:


> OTOH, if they used daylight stock, lit with tungsten, and didn't gel the lights or filter the camera, then you _would_ get green. Certainly possible, but that brings us back to the matte issue.


It comes down to the optical printer. Plus their film stocks were all over the place color wise.

Lets look at these screen caps unaltered from DVDs.

























Pick your color for the enterprise.:wink2:



On a cool side note...
In these two frames you can see the reflective nature of the blue leading edge of the dorsal/neck area go from light to darker blue as the ship turns, even though the film stocks/bluescreen key killed the actual color of the blue.


----------



## Steve H (Feb 8, 2009)

asalaw said:


> My only quibble with the blue + tungsten theory is that they would have been using tungsten-balanced film, which shifts the tungsten color temp back to white. The skypans that were lighting the bluescreen were tungsten also, and there's no evidence of color-correcting gels on them in any photos that I've seen, so their blue screen would've shifted to green as well, and the matte wouldn't have worked. Back then their mattes were created by reprinting the bluescreen footage on high-contrast B&W film, which turns blue into white and creates the matte. Green wouldn't have worked.
> 
> I'm not saying the model had any green on it, just raising the question about the tungsten thing.
> 
> EDIT -- OTOH, if they used daylight stock, lit with tungsten, and didn't gel the lights or filter the camera, then you _would_ get green. Certainly possible, but that brings us back to the matte issue.


I don't think they did much matte work. If they did, their optical printer work was above par for the time. I *think* most of the shots were simple superimposition and careful framing. 

I dunno, been decades since I've seen an original, unretouched episode, but I just don't recall the 'matte halo' effect. I fully accept that I could be really wrong on this. 

I do recall, long long long ago, at one of Roddenberry's college lectures, watching his B&W print of 'The Cage' (and how many dupes down was THAT?) and spotting right away stars streaking through the Enterprise.

No, geeze, there HAD to be some matte work. You can't do a pass over a planet circa 1966 and NOT get bleedthrough if you just super the ship over the planet. Hence, matte. But man, those mattes were TIGHT.

Hmmm. I wonder if this would have been a case of shooting 'single frame stop-motion' that Daiten claimed was the 'standard' way the 11 foot miniature was shot. You'd have great depth-of-field and a very steady outline.


----------



## asalaw (Dec 23, 2012)

Steve H said:


> No, geeze, there HAD to be some matte work. You can't do a pass over a planet circa 1966 and NOT get bleedthrough if you just super the ship over the planet. Hence, matte. But man, those mattes were TIGHT.


No, they shot bluescreen mattes. If you look at the Blu-rays with the original FX, the matte lines were far from tight. Now and then they're even out of registration, so the matte is actually trailing the model, creating an ugly black gap. Of course, they were never meant for high-resolution scrutiny. On regular 525-line analog TV they looked pretty good.

As far as stop motion, the American Cinematographer article says nothing about it. Here's the link to the copy I got from the Library of Congress archives:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2oupUwvgx5FbzRzcHRpajF0d1U/view?usp=sharing


----------



## jheilman (Aug 30, 2001)

The stop-motion topic came up before. There are issues such as blinking lights timing and the nacelle lighting that would prevent stop-motion shooting from working.


----------



## Steve H (Feb 8, 2009)

jheilman said:


> The stop-motion topic came up before. There are issues such as blinking lights timing and the nacelle lighting that would prevent stop-motion shooting from working.


Blinking light timing, that's surely not an issue with stop-motion, as that's how they did Star Trek:The Motion Picture but yes, in particular the nacelle domes and the spinning blades are indeed not really workable in a stop-motion environment.

Well, they COULD work with stepper motors and super carefully machined gearing but I don't think windshield wiper motors qualify as that.


----------



## Steve H (Feb 8, 2009)

asalaw said:


> No, they shot bluescreen mattes. If you look at the Blu-rays with the original FX, the matte lines were far from tight. Now and then they're even out of registration, so the matte is actually trailing the model, creating an ugly black gap. Of course, they were never meant for high-resolution scrutiny. On regular 525-line analog TV they looked pretty good.
> 
> As far as stop motion, the American Cinematographer article says nothing about it. Here's the link to the copy I got from the Library of Congress archives:
> 
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2oupUwvgx5FbzRzcHRpajF0d1U/view?usp=sharing


Fair enough. Then qualifier, mattes looked really tight for 1960's TV broadcast. I recall when Star Wars was new in '77 you could see the 'garbage matte' boxes around the TIE Fighters and I never recall anything approaching that watching Star Trek.

There, fixed and added context. 

And BTW, DAAAAAYYYYMMMMM, son, I don't think I had ever read that AC covered Trek back in the '60s!! Now there's gonna be a run on that issue.


----------



## pagni (Mar 20, 1999)

That AC article is pretty interesting, upside down pictures of the Enterprise and all.....


----------



## Light23 (Jun 14, 2016)

"Mr. Scott's Guide To the Enterprise"
"In order to save adding many tons of mass to the vessel, it was decided, for the first time ever (in Star Fleet history), not to paint a Federation vessel with the customary light-gray thermocoat. In fact, Enterprise's pearlescent, bare-alloy appearance was so favorably received that Star Fleet has eliminated thermocoat from all vessels of 90,000 tons and above."


Soooo by this logic, if the refit was dichroic/prismatic aztecing, then would the TOS Enterprise actually be a silver/skyblue metal color under the gray 'thermocoat'?


----------



## Gary K (Aug 26, 2002)

Light23 said:


> "Mr. Scott's Guide To the Enterprise"
> "In order to save adding many tons of mass to the vessel, it was decided, for the first time ever (in Star Fleet history), not to paint a Federation vessel with the customary light-gray thermocoat. In fact, Enterprise's pearlescent, bare-alloy appearance was so favorably received that Star Fleet has eliminated thermocoat from all vessels of 90,000 tons and above."
> 
> 
> Soooo by this logic, if the refit was dichroic/prismatic aztecing, then would the TOS Enterprise actually be a silver/skyblue metal color under the gray 'thermocoat'?


Umm - no. The blue dorsal paint wasn't metallic - just very glossy, at least in the 1st pilot. What the blue was *supposed* to be is anybody's guess, but I think a major factor in its selection was the fact that "it looked cool".

Gary


----------



## Steve H (Feb 8, 2009)

Light23 said:


> "Mr. Scott's Guide To the Enterprise"
> "In order to save adding many tons of mass to the vessel, it was decided, for the first time ever (in Star Fleet history), not to paint a Federation vessel with the customary light-gray thermocoat. In fact, Enterprise's pearlescent, bare-alloy appearance was so favorably received that Star Fleet has eliminated thermocoat from all vessels of 90,000 tons and above."
> 
> 
> Soooo by this logic, if the refit was dichroic/prismatic aztecing, then would the TOS Enterprise actually be a silver/skyblue metal color under the gray 'thermocoat'?


I have at times posited that Jefferies may have thought the Enterprise might be colored like USAF aircraft of the day (early '60s), mixtures of titanium and magnesium and steel and aluminum. Shiny and dull shades of silver. This, of course, would have been INSANE to try and film with '60s film effects technology. 

It would be practical now, of course. I think that would be a very interesting look, but I don't think it's how any active service Constellation Class Heavy Cruiser would look. OTOH, first of its class doing initial fitting and space trails? That could be very exciting. hah. Test markings. Large areas of red and white/black registration marks. 

Suddenly strikes me somebody actually did that once.


----------



## asalaw (Dec 23, 2012)

Light23 said:


> "Mr. Scott's Guide To the Enterprise"
> "In order to save adding many tons of mass to the vessel, it was decided, for the first time ever (in Star Fleet history), not to paint a Federation vessel with the customary light-gray thermocoat. In fact, Enterprise's pearlescent, bare-alloy appearance was so favorably received that Star Fleet has eliminated thermocoat from all vessels of 90,000 tons and above."


Right out of the space shuttle playbook. That's why the main tanks were all rusty orange after the second mission. That was the color of the insulation when they left it unpainted.:smile2:


----------



## Light23 (Jun 14, 2016)

Gary K said:


> Umm - no. The blue dorsal paint wasn't metallic - just very glossy, at least in the 1st pilot.











Gonna have to play the devil's advocate & argue the fact that I don't think it was high gloss that gave it the metallic look and color shifts.


















Take a look at these two pictures from the pilot enterprise when the neck was all blue.

It doesn't seem over glossy to me.

















It was only slightly more glossy than the gray hull. I personally believe the metallic appearance got washed out in the optical printing effects process. The smaller model was the one painted just skyblue while I believe the 11 footer was silver skyblue.

-The 3 foot model had the same amount of gloss on the 11 foot yet doesn't look metal. 

















But I of course defer to you, cause you are with the big E and not me.:laugh:


----------



## Gary K (Aug 26, 2002)

Light23 said:


> Gonna have to play the devil's advocate & argue the fact that I don't think it was high gloss that gave it the metallic look and color shifts.
> 
> Take a look at these two pictures from the pilot enterprise when the neck was all blue.
> 
> ...


I saw the paint in person, and it was not metallic. It had a glossy finish for the 1st Pilot, when the 3' & 11' models were filmed in front of a black backdrop, but was dull-coated for the 2nd Pilot, in which the 11-footer was filmed in front of a blue screen.

Gary


----------



## Light23 (Jun 14, 2016)

Gary K said:


> I saw the paint in person, and it was not metallic. It had a glossy finish for the 1st Pilot, when the 3' & 11' models were filmed in front of a black backdrop, but was dull-coated for the 2nd Pilot, in which the 11-footer was filmed in front of a blue screen.
> 
> Gary


Oh...wow. :surprise:
I'm sure I can cancel my order for all that metallic paint I just bought. Well then...if you will excuse me, I'll...just..


----------



## Steve H (Feb 8, 2009)

Light23 said:


> Oh...wow. :surprise:
> I'm sure I can cancel my order for all that metallic paint I just bought. Well then...if you will excuse me, I'll...just..


(snipped GIF for bandwidth, but that gag take never gets old. Kinda wish Frakes had been able to bring some of that manic energy to the actual show.  )

You know, there's no reason whatsoever to NOT use that paint. It's the look YOU see. If it looks right to you, it's right. Build it the way that looks right to you. 

Don't forget, trying to match EXACTLY the paint of the filming miniature is a suckers game. To do it RIGHT you also have to scale the colors, shift the tones by the appropriate amount to compensate for the reduction in physical size. (I can't recall the formula, but I think the 1/350 Enterprise kit is like 1/4 the size of the miniature, so...)

This is always a controversy in the modeling community, at least in some quarters. Use correct FS paint numbers on your Vietnam era F-105 Thud and it looks way too dark.


----------



## asalaw (Dec 23, 2012)

Yah. Gonna go with the original advice and not paint squat just yet. I've got the sinclair plans set up in Photoshop to start my Blender model, awaiting the unveiling so I can shoot better pix and update them as needed. If it's doable, I'm hoping to texture it with my own photo-comps of the real McCoy. By then, hopefully the paint info will all be out and I can get to scratch-building my own four-foot model. Big as I can go with my space. Believe me, if I had a big enough house, I'd go all 11' medieval on it. 

BTW, I just bought and read *The Enterprise, NCC-1701 and the Model Maker*. Wonderful read by the son and daughter of Richard Datin, full of lots of interesting history and info. Also some measurements and other info by some guy named Gary Kerr, whoever that is.


----------



## Gary K (Aug 26, 2002)

asalaw said:


> Yah. Gonna go with the original advice and not paint squat just yet. I've got the sinclair plans set up in Photoshop to start my Blender model, awaiting the unveiling so I can shoot better pix and update them as needed. If it's doable, I'm hoping to texture it with my own photo-comps of the real McCoy. By then, hopefully the paint info will all be out and I can get to scratch-building my own four-foot model. Big as I can go with my space. Believe me, if I had a big enough house, I'd go all 11' medieval on it.
> 
> BTW, I just bought and read *The Enterprise, NCC-1701 and the Model Maker*. Wonderful read by the son and daughter of Richard Datin, full of lots of interesting history and info. Also some measurements and other info by some guy named Gary Kerr, whoever that is.


Yeah, I kinda noticed that my private correspondence with Datin was reprinted in the book. Those emails were sent long ago, and I've accurized my plans many times since then.

Gary


----------



## Steve H (Feb 8, 2009)

Some further thoughts on color, and context. 

Might it be useful to once again take a look at the old promo reel for the mid-70s attempt to make a War of the Worlds TV series? 

There's that shot of the supposed production office (ha!) filled with random props that Paramount had laying about, and that sad, lonely nacelle from the 11 foot Enterprise leaning against the wall. 

Even though the condition of the show reel is less than prefect, you still get a pretty good view of that nacelle and man is that dark. 

Also of note, this had to have been just before the model was crated up and sent to the Smithsonian. 

anyway, link. Feature on George Pal's proposed War of the Worlds TV Series. War of the Worlds Invasion website.


----------



## asalaw (Dec 23, 2012)

Gary K said:


> Yeah, I kinda noticed that my private correspondence with Datin was reprinted in the book. Those emails were sent long ago, and I've accurized my plans many times since then.
> 
> Gary


Yikes. They didn't ask? Not cool.


----------



## Paulbo (Sep 16, 2004)

Gary K said:


> ... This obsessive SOB has ...


I'm sure you realize that I meant that as a compliment! :grin2:


----------



## Gary K (Aug 26, 2002)

Paulbo said:


> I'm sure you realize that I meant that as a compliment!


But of course. Otherwise, I'd get you, my pretty - and your yellow shirt, too! 

Gary


----------



## kekker (Mar 20, 2011)

Gary K said:


> But of course. Otherwise, I'd get you, my pretty - and your yellow shirt, too!
> 
> Gary


Don't you mean RED shirt?


Or is that a color shift, too?:devil:


----------



## Paulbo (Sep 16, 2004)

LOL! :grin2:


----------



## Zombie_61 (Apr 21, 2004)

kekker said:


> Don't you mean RED shirt?
> 
> Or is that a color shift, too?:devil:


You mean like the "gold" tunics that were actually green?


----------



## Steve H (Feb 8, 2009)

Zombie_61 said:


> You mean like the "gold" tunics that were actually green?


Phrasing! Oh, wait, this doesn't call for a Stirling Archer response, I've got something for this.

This is probably the single most bizarre yet true thing in Trek fandom, in TV even. That unbelievable difference between stage lighting and natural light on a specific material and color. 

I mean, you can't call it a MISTAKE because there was plenty of time for Roddenberry et al to shout "HEY! That shirt is supposed to be green! What's the deal?!" and that seemingly never happened. I've seen attempts to 'color correct' for the color shift but that just makes everything else look kinda strange. 

It does make Kirk's 'muscle shirt' stand out, because baby that is GREEN, no doubt about it. 

So, followup: Was there similar color shifting going on with the uniforms made for 'the Cage'? What about Kirk's 'mirror universe' muscle shirt? That seems a different yellow than the regular Velour shirt, was there an attempt to color match a different material to what's see on screen?

I know, nothing to do with the blue on the dorsal, but the whole color shifting thing always is fascinating.


----------



## Gary K (Aug 26, 2002)

Steve H said:


> Phrasing! Oh, wait, this doesn't call for a Stirling Archer response, I've got something for this.
> 
> This is probably the single most bizarre yet true thing in Trek fandom, in TV even. That unbelievable difference between stage lighting and natural light on a specific material and color.
> 
> ...


They used 5251 Kodak film stock for filming, and it had much better verisimilitude than earlier films. That is, it recorded the actual colors fairly accurately. James Cawley told me that some of the tunics were yellow, while others were greenish, depending upon the material. In spfx shots the imagery was degraded by multiple passes through the optical printer.

Gary


----------



## asalaw (Dec 23, 2012)

Gary K said:


> They used 5251 Kodak film stock for filming, and it had much better verisimilitude than earlier films. That is, it recorded the actual colors fairly accurately. James Cawley told me that some of the tunics were yellow, while others were greenish, depending upon the material. In spfx shots the imagery was degraded by multiple passes through the optical printer.
> 
> Gary


Hmm. I've seen and handled an original velour tunic in person, and others in photos, that were gold, but had green dye stains in the armpits, hems, and seams. I wonder if they didn't start out gold, get dyed that green color, and lose the dye with repeated washings? Given that background and guest actors got hand-me-downs, that would certainly explain the variations. Older tunics would have been through more washings and lost much more dye.


----------



## Gary K (Aug 26, 2002)

asalaw said:


> Hmm. I've seen and handled an original velour tunic in person, and others in photos, that were gold, but had green dye stains in the armpits, hems, and seams. I wonder if they didn't start out gold, get dyed that green color, and lose the dye with repeated washings? Given that background and guest actors got hand-me-downs, that would certainly explain the variations. Older tunics would have been through more washings and lost much more dye.


I'm no expert on costumes, so I can't answer these questions; however, I've heard that some of the dyes they used have faded and/or shifted color over the years.

Gary


----------



## Steve H (Feb 8, 2009)

asalaw said:


> Hmm. I've seen and handled an original velour tunic in person, and others in photos, that were gold, but had green dye stains in the armpits, hems, and seams. I wonder if they didn't start out gold, get dyed that green color, and lose the dye with repeated washings? Given that background and guest actors got hand-me-downs, that would certainly explain the variations. Older tunics would have been through more washings and lost much more dye.


Given that they were velour I believe that they were dry-cleaned, not washed in the conventional sense. That stuff shrinks like mad if you're not careful and still shrinks a bit even with care. 

I could believe they were more green that faded with time and cleaning. Exposure to intense studio lights could possibly be another factor. 

Well! Once we (OK, Gary. When Gary gets it all done. He's the man.  ) get all this Enterprise Coloring business cleared up and locked down, we'll have to start on the uniforms.


----------



## Richard Baker (Aug 8, 2006)

Regarding color correction-
They had a problem in the very first pilot with the Orion Slave Girl scene. Dailies would come with her pink instead of green. They kept reworking the makeup and nothing helped. They finally discovered a lab technician was looking at the film, saying "OMG!- this girl is green!" and kept correcting the film until she looked normal.


----------



## Steve H (Feb 8, 2009)

Richard Baker said:


> Regarding color correction-
> They had a problem in the very first pilot with the Orion Slave Girl scene. Dailies would come with her pink instead of green. They kept reworking the makeup and nothing helped. They finally discovered a lab technician was looking at the film, saying "OMG!- this girl is green!" and kept correcting the film until she looked normal.


That's always been a good story, and Roddenberry milked it for huge laughs at his lectures, but I've always wondered.

I mean, if you're color correcting like mad to make a green girl pink, shouldn't that SERIOUSLY mess up everything else in the shot? Don't I recall her costume was also a metallic green? 

I don't doubt it happened once. I find it hard to believe it happened again and again. But it makes a grand story to show the trials Roddenberry had to endure in the face of the many who didn't 'get it', right?


----------



## Owen E Oulton (Jan 6, 2012)

Gene never let the truth get in the way of a good anecdote...


----------



## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

Since we've touched on this topic:

Green velour shirt - 1st & 2nd Seasons:









3rd Season green synthetic shirt:









Green velour shirt at Seattle Sci-Fi Museum:









Replica 3rd Season green shirt next to "gold" 1701 Club shirt:









The colors all look how I remember them. I have seen some of the original uniforms where the dyes have "warmed" or "yellowed" significantly over the years. Even one of Spock's blue velour shirts turned quite purple over time. Probably because of the way they were stored.


----------



## Hunk A Junk (Jan 28, 2013)

Richard Baker said:


> Regarding color correction-
> They had a problem in the very first pilot with the Orion Slave Girl scene. Dailies would come with her pink instead of green. They kept reworking the makeup and nothing helped. They finally discovered a lab technician was looking at the film, saying "OMG!- this girl is green!" and kept correcting the film until she looked normal.


As someone who has sat in on plenty of feature film dailies and participated in color timing sessions, I'm highly skeptical of this story. Color timers are professionals and in my experience they are very good at their jobs (which is how they keep their jobs). The lab processing the dailies gets camera reports from the camera department on every roll to be processed so they know how the film was shot. Even if the first batch of dailies came back with the green girl looking strange, any reasonably competent DP (to say nothing of the director and producer) would instantly look at it and know the lab screwed up, not the makeup department. So Gene was spinning a tall tale for the fans.


----------



## asalaw (Dec 23, 2012)

Hunk A Junk said:


> As someone who has sat in on plenty of feature film dailies and participated in color timing sessions, I'm highly skeptical of this story. Color timers are professionals and in my experience they are very good at their jobs (which is how they keep their jobs). The lab processing the dailies gets camera reports from the camera department on every roll to be processed so they know how the film was shot. Even if the first batch of dailies came back with the green girl looking strange, any reasonably competent DP (to say nothing of the director and producer) would instantly look at it and know the lab screwed up, not the makeup department. So Gene was spinning a tall tale for the fans.


Awesome. I only ever sat in on a Da Vinci session. I'd love to see how it was done photochemically. Only read about it in film school. Sat in on lots of dailies in the 80's and 90's, and they always looked amazing.


----------



## Zombie_61 (Apr 21, 2004)

Steve H said:


> ...This is probably the single most bizarre yet true thing in Trek fandom, in TV even. That unbelievable difference between stage lighting and natural light on a specific material and color.
> 
> I mean, you can't call it a MISTAKE because there was plenty of time for Roddenberry et al to shout "HEY! That shirt is supposed to be green! What's the deal?!" and that seemingly never happened. I've seen attempts to 'color correct' for the color shift but that just makes everything else look kinda strange...


I've pondered this from a different angle--wondering if they chose that color and material _because_ it photographed the yellow/gold color they actually wanted.


----------



## Steve H (Feb 8, 2009)

Zombie_61 said:


> I've pondered this from a different angle--wondering if they chose that color and material _because_ it photographed the yellow/gold color they actually wanted.


That's not that different from what can be implied in my statement. But that's a question in and of itself. 

Do you think it was known that the particular color of green velour photographed more yellow/gold under studio lights? Would that have been seen as desirable by studio costume departments? I mean, generally speaking, colors are chosen for how they look to the designer and producers in an office.

So, like the Enterprise, there's some untold story about the green/gold business waiting to be discovered. 

Might it have been a case that once again time and money played their role, they made up the Command uniforms, started production, saw the color shift and went "Eh. cost too much to change. We're gonna roll with it" ?

Nobody piped up, is there any evidence that there was a similar color shift to the uniforms made for 'The Cage'?


----------



## asalaw (Dec 23, 2012)

Zombie_61 said:


> I've pondered this from a different angle--wondering if they chose that color and material _because_ it photographed the yellow/gold color they actually wanted.


I think they may have done that on Next Gen, but TOS I doubt. The intention was to go with green for command -- like Kirk's wrap-around, his dress tunic, and the green crew coveralls. But the particular shade of the velour just shifted in a way Bill Theiss hadn't predicted, or so he said in interviews.

The funny thing with TNG is that the gold Ops unis were the only ones that _didn't_ shift. When I visited the set, I was gobsmacked by the purple and teal of the command and science unis. I remember thinking the science color was a good match for Miami Dolphins teal.


----------



## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

The 1st & 2nd pilot command uniforms:

















The green command uniform in contrast to the beige engineering & support services uniform.


----------



## Steve H (Feb 8, 2009)

Thank you, Trek Ace. MAN those original uniforms sure looked uncomfortable! or maybe TOO comfortable! 

So, then, my theory now is they were seeking to somewhat match that Command color but the new velour had the unexpected color shift when filmed. How does that idea fit?


----------



## KUROK (Feb 2, 2004)

To me it doesn't matter if they shifted.
I like the "French gold" tunics better than green anyway.


----------



## asalaw (Dec 23, 2012)

Steve H said:


> So, then, my theory now is they were seeking to somewhat match that Command color but the new velour had the unexpected color shift when filmed. How does that idea fit?


That's certainly my educated guess, the operative word being _guess_.



KUROK said:


> To me it doesn't matter if they shifted.
> I like the "French gold" tunics better than green anyway.


It was a shock to me at first, but the green has grown on me over the years. There was a James Doohan quote -- it _may_ have been in TMOST, but I just can't remember -- where he said he'd lobbied unsuccessfully for departmental-color stripes on the pants. He said something like "Red for Engineering, green for Command, and so forth." That stumped me for years. If he was on the set every day, how could he not see that the uniforms were gold? Ah, youth.


----------

