# Nascar.....its only a matter of time



## Jim Norton (Jun 29, 2007)

Sorry for being mostly off topic but I watched the NASCAR race tonight from Charlotte.......Actually only tuned in the last 30 laps.

I would bet the seats were were not even half full! This is profound as tickets prices have been cut tremendously. 

But something of greater concern is that these last laps had nary a commercial. The cautions were covered without breaking away. ABC CAN"T GIVE THE AIR TIME AWAY FOR THE LAST 30 MINUTES OF A NASCAR RACE!

The recent Nascar Hall of Fame inductions included two of the France Family.....leaving driving legend David Pearson out! Is the Hall of Fame for driving or promoting?! You have to wonder about these guys......

You can defend NASCAR however you want....But the college football stadiums are packed. No trouble there with the economy and the weather! And...No slashing of ticket prices.

It has to only be a matter of time before the networks drop Nascar. Gone are the Waltrips, Allisons, Bonnets and Richmonds as well as the Ronnie Thomas's, Slick Johnsons and Buddy Arringtons. We no longer relate to today's pretty boy millionaire drivers like those of years past.

So there you have it. The night time race at Charlotte, once with sold out appeal, can't halfway keep the stands full. So, hold off on your Nascar slot car purchases. Chances are you'll find them in the clearance section of your favorite dealer. Soon.

First Nascar race in '79,

Jim Norton
Huntsville, Alabama


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## clydeomite (May 5, 2004)

I my self felt a wave of Nasuea when they started the megatron bull s**t. Why can't they market the product they have and sell it for whatever it is,Instead of repackaging it for a different age group/ Geographic location. Another questionable practice is when they break for commercials they almost always come back with the caution flag waving for some B/S debrie. Plus they have all thier slaves( drivers) brainwashed into political correctness with a tape recorder stuck in the corner of thier mouth fearing retribution if they speak out. And the crowds the Cameras did a decent job of not showing the grand stands and the sparce crowd. My first race was Phoenix in 1988.
Clyde-0-Mite


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

To sum it up - I switched from the dull race to watching a re-run of Larry the Cable Guy telling poop jokes on Comedy Central. The Chase format lack of popularity is evidence that no real thought went into it before it was instituted. 

- If you're going to have a "playoff" in NASCAR don't you think you would feature your 10 best, most challenging, and popular racing venues? Other than Martinsville and Talladega, which is a restrictor plate demo derby, they could not have picked a worse lineup of mind numbing, boring, and dull race venues. New Hampshire, Kansas, Homestead, Phoenix, Fontana, etc. What were they thinking? Oh, they weren't, it was just another knee jerk reaction to help boost popularity. Same old short sighted leadership, same old short sighted ideas.

- I know I'll get little agreement, but racing should be very heavily biased on winning. I was thrilled when I heard F1 was going to move to a format where the champion was the racer who won they most races. But then they backed down. Points racing is dull and it only serves a purpose for the runners-up. Championships should be based on wins, even if the champion only runs one third of the races, most wins should always trump points. 

- In NASCAR, they've completely taken away the car and technology factor so it's only about the driver. This leads to absurd situations with hugely popular drivers who rarely win and consistently winning drivers who are scorned by fans. In other words, the racing part of the equation is completely irrelevant. If the racing part is irrelevant, then what's the point of running the race? Just let the fans pick the champion, like some other sports pick All-Star Game participants.

- The mega teams like Hendrick (and its satellite team Stewart-Haas), JGR, and Roush are ultimately going to lead to the demise of the sport. NASCAR loves them because they bring stability and ensure a full field. In reality, these teams create in impenetrable barrier to anyone new coming into the series. This creates a virtual partnership between NASCAR and a small handful of team owners. One car teams don't have a remote chance any more. Even start-park operations need significant funding to get a field filler car on the track. I would like to see a two-car limit per team, with zero allowable funding, technology, parts, and R&D sharing between teams. 

- Time to beat the dead horse again - make the cars actually look like the models they are supposed to represent. If this leads to certain makes being non competitive, too bad. Don't try to sell me on the benefits of a certain brand on Sunday, and then on Monday at the dealer do a big 'ol bait and switch on me when I find out the brand and car that won on Sunday has no equivalence to any real car in the showroom. Why would anyone think that a generic blob with wing that's stuffed with 1960s technology would lead me to buy something 40+ years newer and generations different merely because it has the same manufacturers nameplate? I don't get it, any more than I can get a pushrod, carburated 350 cu in V8 rear wheel drive Camry, Fusion, Charger, or Impala.


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## Pomfish (Oct 25, 2003)

I watched a little of it because I was bored.
Anyway, those camera guys are good at cropping the picture so you can't see the stands very well.
Every now and then when they had a shot from the pits, you could make out the vast blue of empty seats.
It also looks like the newest Fad is to cover big blocks of seats with Ad Banners that make you think it is just empty space and not seat area.

I would love to know the actual head count. I am guessing less than 30,000.
Gotta say I love it, Na$car deserves it. They lost the real diehard fans that put them on the map long ago and now they can reap what they sowed.
If they thought today's youth would have the attention span to take them to next level, they just got schooled on that deal.
Thanks,
Keith in Rain soaked PA.


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## A/FX Nut (May 28, 2004)

*Discouraged.*

I have to agree with you guys. I turned the race on last night with 15 laps to go. J. Johnson took the lead and I turned off the TV. NASICAR or National Association of Stock IROC Car Racing as it should be known has pretty much lost the appeal that brought me to it.

I'm tired of seeing the same guys win year in and year out. As of now, I don't know who won the race last night. 

And ABC needs to fire that Brad " State the Obvious " Dorky. LAME, LAME, LAME! Why ABC needs 3 guys to commentate the race and 3 more to analysis it is beyond me.

The only good thing about going to a race and camping for a few days is to spend time with your friends and family. I've got to know some good people and that's what I missed about not going to MIS in August this year.

Randy.


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## Brian 1811 (Jan 17, 2009)

What Jimmie Johnson winning again no way. Nascar says that two specific teams are running near the borderline of cheating but there legal so they just warned them. I wonder which teams these could be. Da not the hendrick boys except for junior he is overated. So I think everybody else should be borderline too.


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## oldtoyguy (May 31, 2009)

*Nothing Lasts*

"Nothing lasts" , Ken Keseys pranksters said that.
I quit going to nascar races when Terry Labonte retired. Restrictor plates stink and I had more fun watching the Outlaw and All Star spring cars race at Eldora in Ohio, Dirt is for racing , aspault is for getting there.
Buzzy


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## LeeRoy98 (Jul 8, 2005)

Brian 1811 said:


> Nascar says that two specific teams are running near the borderline of cheating but there legal so they just warned them.


Since when is running as close to tolerance as possible without exceeding the tolerance considered cheating?

I watched the entire race and enjoyed it. I watched the Nationwide race also this weekend. 
I have a race from the 90's on DVR that I watch upon occasion for the nostalgia of the older cars and some painting reference. Perhaps some of you should watch the "race" where only 4 cars were on the lead lap half way through and explain to me how the "racing" was better.

I like the racing today, I applaud the efforts of NASCAR, and I think to many of the "good old days" memories can be attributed to poor memories. But I do remember when Toyota was on a winning streak and NASCAR responded to the outcry by applying a restriction to their engines. Amazingly, despite the domination of Chevrolet, no similar restrictions have been applied. Nor have I seen a similar outcry on these boards...

Gary
AKA LeeRoy98
www.marioncountyraceway.com


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## smalltime (Jun 3, 2006)

oldtoyguy said:


> "Nothing lasts" , Ken Keseys pranksters said that.
> I quit going to nascar races when Terry Labonte retired. Restrictor plates stink and I had more fun watching the Outlaw and All Star spring cars race at Eldora in Ohio, Dirt is for racing , aspault is for getting there.
> Buzzy


I'm right there with ya' BUzzy. 
I grew up with Jimmy Long, the crew cheif for Terry when he won the last "real" southern 500. We both grew up in sothern Mi. and enjoyed going to Eldora in the early 8os.
I do have to admit to enjoying NON wing shows much more than the fast guys. Now I live about threee hours from Knoxville, and got to go to the 360 nats this year. 
Awsome.

Is Millstream going? What a great track that is.


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## sbrady#0 (Nov 18, 2007)

LeeRoy98 said:


> Since when is running as close to tolerance as possible without exceeding the tolerance considered cheating?
> 
> I watched the entire race and enjoyed it. I watched the Nationwide race also this weekend.
> I have a race from the 90's on DVR that I watch upon occasion for the nostalgia of the older cars and some painting reference. Perhaps some of you should watch the "race" where only 4 cars were on the lead lap half way through and explain to me how the "racing" was better.
> ...


If you where a ture race fan you would understand having the field atleast one lap down you are probly one that think every one should win and like T ball dont keep score nascar is getting what thay need ten race play off what joke the NFL should let the detriot lion play in the play off too they cant fill there stands ether


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## martybauer31 (Jan 27, 2004)

sbrady#0 said:


> If you where a ture race fan you would understand having the field atleast one lap down you are probly one that think every one should win and like T ball dont keep score nascar is getting what thay need ten race play off what joke the NFL should let the detriot lion play in the play off too they cant fill there stands ether


Whoah.... 985 posts and you can't figure out how to punctuate yet?

Where in any of this thread did anyone post that everyone should win like in t-ball? And what does the NFL have to with this either exactly?

It's a little early in the day to be hitting the moonshine so hard, isn't it?


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## LeeRoy98 (Jul 8, 2005)

sbrady#0 said:


> If you where a ture race fan


Yes, I am not a "ture" race fan... at least I don't think so! LOL

I just agree to disagree. I like the side by side racing, 4 wide for position, not knowing on October 18th who has the championship locked up, not being sad because another driver died... I believe there are a number of innovations that have made for better racing. 
I enjoy NASCAR and have for almost 50 years... others may disagree. Just my opinion, which combined with a quarter will get you 5 cents (after taxes!).

Gary
AKA LeeRoy98
www.marioncountyraceway.com


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## Pomfish (Oct 25, 2003)

LeeRoy98 said:


> Since when is running as close to tolerance as possible without exceeding the tolerance considered cheating?
> 
> I watched the entire race and enjoyed it. I watched the Nationwide race also this weekend.
> I have a race from the 90's on DVR that I watch upon occasion for the nostalgia of the older cars and some painting reference. Perhaps some of you should watch the "race" where only 4 cars were on the lead lap half way through and explain to me how the "racing" was better.
> ...


So you have one race with 4 cars on the lead lap and that makes all the old racing that way? 

I have probably 30 races from the mid-late 80's and early 90's and I can guarantee you there are more than 4 cars on the lead lap on most of them. 

Point is, on the old races when they ran Bias Ply tires, you could have a team change the setup at the last pit stop and make a car very fast for the last run if you knew what you were doing.
That is pretty much impossible in today's COT Radial Tire Wing Special.

You pretty much "Got what you Got" when you start the race.
They all ride on the bump stops and the only real radical adjustment they have is pulling a spring rubber which usually does more harm than good.

The biggest thing is that small teams have very little chance of pulling the upset, in the old days they had some chance.

Bottom line, if today's format works for you, Great!
Me, I have found other things to do and I thanks Nascar for that.
My lawn has never looked better 

Thanks,
Keith


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## Roddgerr (Feb 8, 2006)

But something of greater concern is that these last laps had nary a commercial. The cautions were covered without breaking away. ABC CAN"T GIVE THE AIR TIME AWAY FOR THE LAST 30 MINUTES OF A NASCAR RACE

At the Dover race I think the last 100 laps were shown commercial free.


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## Gear Head (Mar 22, 2005)

For the last 10 years or so, I have "wanted" to like NASCAR but just couldn't do it, especially since the restrictors came into play. Coming from nearly 30 years of motorsports racing myself I can see both sides of the "racing" coin here. Not being involved in auto racing however, I can't give an answer here as to why it isn't working for me. But I will gladly watch a poor quality, grainy, race with goofy announcing from a 1970 NASCAR race any day, and many times, over a current race event. 

Just last year the American Lemans has really caught my attention. Between the baffling technology, aggressive driving, and the cool looking cars, I am enjoying it.


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## slotcarman12078 (Oct 3, 2008)

Roddgerr said:


> But something of greater concern is that these last laps had nary a commercial. The cautions were covered without breaking away. ABC CAN"T GIVE THE AIR TIME AWAY FOR THE LAST 30 MINUTES OF A NASCAR RACE
> 
> At the Dover race I think the last 100 laps were shown commercial free.


A situation like this can lead to severe bladder disorders!!!!  Something needs to be done about this!! :tongue: :lol: :jest:


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## LeeRoy98 (Jul 8, 2005)

A quick check at racing-reference.info website showed the following stats for lead lap cars in the first 5 races of 1970, 1980, 1990, 2000, and 2009:

1970
3
2
2
1
1

1980
5
2
4
2
3

1990
7
10
2
7
9

2000
23
4
19
6
12

2009
31
16
17
12
15

Now you can argue that NASCAR has gone too far with making the cars equal, but I still prefer having cars available to win on the last lap vs. watching a hand full of cars circle the track.
As far as the little guy having a chance, there are no "little guys" in NASCAR and there have not been for a LOT of years. But I would point out Brad Keselowski's win this year for James Finch racing was pretty close to the "little guy" winning a race.

But I will agree that the bladder stretcher at the end of the race needs to be addressed!!

Just my opinion...

Gary
AKA LeeRoy98
www.marioncountyracing.com


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## Gear Head (Mar 22, 2005)

Wow, the numbers do speak for themselves, don't they.


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## Jim Norton (Jun 29, 2007)

*If?*

If its better today why are the stands half full and no advertisers seeking air time? 

Lets remember when the 3rd turn meant that 1,2 or 3 cars might slingshot past the leader. And, if it happened once it certainly happened again!

Now, those who have been critical of Nascar as "just running round and round" have a point. Its true and Nascar has done everything so that it evolves into a flashy parade.

The Rose Bowl Parade would be more exciting if they allowed the floats to pass!

Jim Norton
Huntsville, AL


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## LeeRoy98 (Jul 8, 2005)

I would offer the half full stands of today still far exceed the attendance figures from the past. I believe that NASCAR boomed in the early part of this decade and multiple tracks over built their grandstands. 

Advertising dollars down? Give me an example of any industry where the economy has not hit the advertising dollars? Look at the numbers for corporate skybox renewals in the NFL, MLB, etc. The money crunch has hit everyone and not just NASCAR.

I too miss the slingshot, but as Bobby Allison proved by almost losing his life, it was imperative that speeds be reduced. I wish I had the answer for removing the restrictor plates, but they are only used at Daytona and Talladega. Unfortunately, aerodynamics have proven to be the biggest culprit in killing the slingshot. And the aerodynamic knowledge can now never be removed. Part of the current car design was to assist in making the cars less aero dependent and it has been only moderately successful. When Gary Nelson joined NASCAR, he stated his main objective was to find an alternative for the restrictor plates. Sadly, he retired without ever achieving the goal. And Gary was one of the brightest of all crew chiefs in NASCAR.

I would offer that one of the worst things in NASCAR is the TV coverage. I believe a lot of the mis-conceptions regarding the racing stem from the network desire to track nothing but the leader (and some guy named Earnhardt).

I love auto racing... all auto racing... but some more than others. I still love NASCAR but do understand the nostalgia of the past. I remember fondly Fireball, Tiny, Friday, Coo Coo, Spencer, Dr. Don, LeeRoy, and all the others I pulled for. But I still enjoy watching today.

Gary
AKA LeeRoy98
www.marioncountyraceway.com


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## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)

Remember that lead lap car numbers are skewed now, however, since they give the Free Pass to the first car a lap down when they yellow comes out. The more cautions in a race, the more cars that get the free pass.

The on-track RACING product was better before the aero era and before radial tires. And certainly before the COT car. Give me three or four cars on the lead lap with those guys driving their guts out vs. 25 cars on the lead lap and the race leader two seconds out front anyday.


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## LeeRoy98 (Jul 8, 2005)

When the cars raced back to the line, it was not uncommon for several cars to beat the leader to the line as the leaders would slow some to allow some of the lap cars to get a lap back. So those numbers might actually be higher in a race.

Average margin of Victory for the first 10 races of 1970, 1980, 1990, 2000, and 2009 from racing-reference.info website:

1970
3.5 sec
3 car lengths
15.1 sec
3 laps+
1 lap+
50 feet
3 laps+
44 sec
1.5 laps
1 lap+

1980
2.97 sec
Caution
1.2 sec
3 sec
9.55 sec
8.7 sec
3.3 sec
1 lap & 5 sec
Caution
3 feet

1990
1.5 car lengths
3 sec
26 sec
0.32 sec
0.25 sec
8 inches
0.95 sec
4.5 sec
2 car lengths
0.17 sec

2000
Caution
1.068 sec
Caution
0.010 sec
1.42 sec
2.622 sec
5.92 sec
1.505 sec
0.189 sec
0.3 sec

2009
Caution
1.463 sec
0.411 sec
0.332 sec
0.391 sec
0.774 sec
0.378 sec
0.734 sec
0.174 sec
2.751 sec

Gary
AKA LeeRoy98
www.marioncountyraceway.com


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## gonegonzo (Jan 18, 2006)

I'd like to see NASCAR race real stock cars again. In the 60's you'd still see wind up windows intact. While this might be a safety issue I could see a gutted interior, fuel cell and cage for safety but if the car came with front wheel drive and a V6 auto , that's a stock car. I guess I'm a stock car fan and not a NASCAR fan.

Also , with the economy, people are cutting into their sports and hobbies. They might still attend the races but just not as many. Some people attended more than just a few races a year. 

Ya know , nothing is Utopia. Everything has a life expectancy. However, with some logic and re-evaluating , NASCAR or just the racers could turn this thing around. 

Maybe it's a factor where NASCAR needs a competitor that races stock cars in a more creative manner . Maybe open the rules so the average racer could at least get a chance to qualify and compete. Competition keeps eveyone strait don't you think ? Everything doesn't need to be big buisiness. Face it , the early racers built their cars in the drive way.

Gonzo


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

LeeRoy98, I think you have done an excellent job of backing up your position with compelling data. Not that I still don't have issues with the race formats, spec cars, and which tracks got selected (or not selected) for the Chase, but I understand your points. 

I hate restrictor plate racing, as do most fans, drivers, owners, and NASCAR leadership, but I agree that nobody has come up with a way to provide a good show and maintain safety on the mega tracks. It's not an easy problem to solve. There are only so many knobs you can turn to try and make a difference. Over the years they have tried them all and none of them make a difference because the engineers will always figure out a way to get back whatever speed they take away.

As far as "small teams," I also pointed out that even the start/park teams require some serious cash just to show up. But I think the other end of the spectrum is more skewed than ever, not yet to F1 money standards, but starting to head in that direction. But the same could be said of the NY Yankees/Boston Red Sox versus the Pittsburgh Pirates operations. Bottom line is that the mega teams can afford to operate with huge engineering staffs and massive R&D because they have the on track performance to pull in the big sponsorship deals. 

Two things I would like to see NASCAR do first and foremost: first, rearrange the schedule so the 10 Chase races are at the 10 most compelling tracks, and second, reduce the race lengths substantially. Nothing longer than 250 miles would suit me just fine.


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## Crimnick (May 28, 2006)

I was done with NASCAR when they let toyota in.

But I'm sure they will try and hold on until they are racing Kia's and Hundai's...

And no...that wasnt an invitation to start a Kia debate...


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## clydeomite (May 5, 2004)

I have had a solution to restrictor plate racing for several years and it's really simple . Cut 50 cubic inches off and run a 305 max cu.in on Daytona and Talladega. Maybe Charolette and Atlanta too. That way the guy on the street gets filtered down technology and the cars aren't choked down per se on throttle response. With all the money they spend on Restritor Plate Motors ( I hate that term they are internal combustion ENGINES). They could do R&D on smaller engines and possibly pave the way to the future if they continue to mandate pushrod engines. If they went with overhead cams and fuel injection , whoa boy look out


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

I guess Tom Cruise needs to do another movie. He can play Mark Martin.

Nascar solved this problem before. They restricted the big blocks and brought in the small blocks. It took 15 years to get the speeds back up, and the racing was great. ASA used to run v6 engines. I think Nascar could do that with some success at Daytona and Talladega. Or they could just run parachutes on the back. 

If they really want the young crowd, run a Tuner series with all the rice burners.

Rich


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## grungerockjeepe (Jan 8, 2007)

NTxSlotCars said:


> If they really want the young crowd, run a Tuner series with all the rice burners.
> 
> Rich


Actually, the Japanese have the right idea. I think their version of NASCAR is called the Super GT series. Not only are the cars just modified versions of the actual production cars, they use cars fans of racing would actually WANT to own. The 500 hp series uses the 370Z, Skyline, RX-8 etc. Basically rwd cars with some serious mustard under the hood. Then theres the 300 HP series using more 'ricer' type cars such as the Celica, MR spyder, Civic etc which are mostly fwd and with smaller engines.

My issue with NASCAR is that for years they havent used one single car I would be caught dead owning. Who cares about a race series where the cars dont even exist, but the nameplate is used on mom's grocery getter, a cop cruiser or a taxicab? Thats just plain stupid. The rules once were that if a team wants to field something, the mfg has to sell it. So a 2dr, v-8 rwd impala or fusion is totally acceptable provided that gm and ford actually BUILD it. Thats the reason there ever was a superbird or charger daytona. Thats good for the consumer since we'd have a choice of more 'real' cars and not just a bunch of politically correct, politician designed family rides which are a feeble attempt to beat toyota and hyundai at their own game. When GM switched to fwd on the lumina and just re-bodied it for NASCAR, that was the first nail in the coffin. The second was when Ford dropped the T-bird and was allowed to use the fwd to rwd cheat, and push it even further by fabricating a bodystyle that doesnt even exist for NASCAR. 

Truth is, if NASCAR was smart, theyd do a major enema on both the rule book and the management. They should pretty much make it a modern clone of the old Trans-AM series, and take a hard look at Super GT. Make the courses more of a road course instead of the same tired all left turn oval and then base the rules for the cars around the challenger, mustang, and camaro, and work it in so nissan, BMW, mazda and even hyundai can field cars since they DO have cars that fit the bill for this kind of thing, maybe a different class for the lower hp. The races would be more exiting, the big 3 would sell even MORE of the only cars that they have in demand, interest in racing would rise considerably among all demographics. Most importantly, it would help insure that we the consumers will always be offered cars we really want to drive, not just an appliance to get from point A to point B.


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## Jim Norton (Jun 29, 2007)

*There is nothing the matter with the oval*

I remember years back when NASCAR was exciting and I would sneer at other forms of racing as boring. But isn't irony wonderful?!

For the record....Nothing is the matter with an oval track when drivers actually race. The "round and round" criticism did not become valid till the last few years.

Racing is the most exciting form of sport period. Whether its automobiles, motorbikes, skateboards or slot cars the thrill of a great race is unforgetable. The problem with Nascar is that racing takes a backseat to:

1) Speed limits on pit row
2) No racing back to the line at caution
3) Uninspiring COTs
4) Over exposed drivers
5) Stupid concepts like The Chase

In order for Nascar to continue they are going to have to start all over again. 

Jim Norton
Huntsville, AL


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## eastside johnny (May 13, 2008)

"Actually, the Japanese have the right idea. I think their version of NASCAR is called the Super GT series. Not only are the cars just modified versions of the actual production cars, they use cars fans of racing would actually WANT to own. The 500 hp series uses the 370Z, Skyline, RX-8 etc. Basically rwd cars with some serious mustard under the hood. Then theres the 300 HP series using more 'ricer' type cars such as the Celica, MR spyder, Civic etc which are mostly fwd and with smaller engines."

*AND also look at the Australian V8 Super car Series!!!*


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## smalltime (Jun 3, 2006)

I think it's a moot point. If Jimmy wins another cup, there won't enough people watching to make a difference. 
When a driver gets too agressive, they make his mind right. And when Danika starts in NASFARCE, look out. If you think it's rigged NOW.

And just to throw a grenade on the fire.......I Like Kyle Busch ! He's the best thing NASFARCE has had since they got to Tony.


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## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)

eastside johnny said:


> *AND also look at the Australian V8 Super car Series!!!*


 
Hell Yeah. :thumbsup:

Why do you think you can't watch it on SPEED anymore?


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

> I Like Kyle Busch


Nothing controversial there. I wish all 43 of the drivers drove with the single minded "win at all costs" approach that Kyle has when he is on the track. He ruined his own chances to get in the Chase by always going for the win and ended up in the fence one too many times. That's okay, he is still far more compelling to watch than the rest of the milquetoast drivers running for points.

NASCAR is no different than any other big time, popular, professional sport. Whether it's instant replay in the NFL, the DH and stubby fences in MLB, six months of playoffs in the NHL, or the too close 3-point line and traveling two-step of the NBA, at some point all "professional" sports lose some of the essence of what we love about them as they cater to a broader audience and move from sport to entertainment to investment. The surest way to kill interest in some pure things is to "Go Pro."

Applies to slot car racing as well.


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## SplitPoster (May 16, 2006)

The Nascar defenders are fewer and fewer, just like the people who buy tickets for the events. People can be entertained by and defend anything, but the majority of posts on this board reflect the broader sentiment. Gimics have made the series worse, not better, and the power brokers have circled the wagons.

My first race attended - Talladega 1984. The stands and the infield were packed, and the fans were rabid, thank you. The cars were tube frame of course, as any car running that fast had to be, but running stock body templates and still running stock steel roofs. 

Close racing is great, if it happens because there is actually close competitive racing. What they have developed for individual races - and the championship - is like an 8 quarter football game that comes down to the final possession every single game. Real sports, real competition doesn't work like that every time. That's why OT and sizzling comebacks are exciting, and Nascar is not. Sometimes blowouts are exciting too, like the Saints rolling over the Giants Sunday. Seeing the perceived front-runner getting schooled every now and then is pretty cool.

Now the interesting parts to come - car brand labels are fewer.... manufacturers are changing lines. Chrysler bringing in Fiats.... will Dodge be only trucks? Whose logo goes on a new CoT next season and the season after? Will they make Hyundai build a puishrod V8? How many people will care?


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## grungerockjeepe (Jan 8, 2007)

eastside johnny said:


> "Actually, the Japanese have the right idea. I think their version of NASCAR is called the Super GT series. Not only are the cars just modified versions of the actual production cars, they use cars fans of racing would actually WANT to own. The 500 hp series uses the 370Z, Skyline, RX-8 etc. Basically rwd cars with some serious mustard under the hood. Then theres the 300 HP series using more 'ricer' type cars such as the Celica, MR spyder, Civic etc which are mostly fwd and with smaller engines."
> 
> *AND also look at the Australian V8 Super car Series!!!*


But arent those all 4-door sedans? I mean if so, then who cares... Sorry, but I cant get excited about something where there's a few variations on the same thing.


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## kiwidave (Jul 20, 2009)

grungerockjeepe. You should check out some V8supercar racing before you write it off. You may be surprised how good the racing is????


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## Pomfish (Oct 25, 2003)

grungerockjeepe said:


> But arent those all 4-door sedans? I mean if so, then who cares... Sorry, but I cant get excited about something where there's a few variations on the same thing.


Uhh..... aren't Dodge Chargers 4 doors? 
So was the Ford Taurus.

Thanks,
Keith


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## coach61 (Sep 6, 2004)

Pomfish said:


> Uhh..... aren't Dodge Chargers 4 doors?
> So was the Ford Taurus.
> 
> Thanks,
> Keith


Pretty sure when I went to the store yesterday my Toaurus had 4 doors. Cop Car I passed had 4 doors.. V8 rules....


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## Ligier Runner (Nov 29, 2004)

The current state of Nascar is sad in my opinion. I grew up in a family that thoroughly enjoyed auto racing and even participated in racing. I've been a racing fan since I was old enough to figure out what was going on. First Nascar race attended was in '92. Went to MIS for years. This year, my dad offered up a ticket to the June race at MIS as a gift for Father's Day but I said no thanks. If he would have offered up a ticket for a good short track race somewhere I would have said yes. The chase format completely threw me off Nascar for good unless they revert back. Even then, I would have to figure out how to stomach a field full of spec cars running under the guise of being fielded by multiple makes like Ford, Chevy, etc. I miss the days of the cars looking like what you saw in the showroom. I miss the days of guys like Kulwicki, Earnhardt, Pearson, Baker, and all them cats who raced because they loved to race. Saturday night I was at Kokomo Speedway in Kokomo, IN to watch some real racing on dirt. Temps in the low 30's and your toes freezing but I enjoyed myself far more than sitting in front of a tv watching the Nascar deal.


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

I think the safer barrier is a bigger innovation than the COT.
Their have been no more fatal crashes since rolling out the safer barriers in '02.
The big wreck everybody points to to prove the COTs safety is O'Dowell's wreck at Texas, 
but O'Dowell hit a safer barrier, so how is that a good measure?
The only real test was when Jeff Gordon hit the inside wall head on last year.
In the modern era aero wars, the roofs kept getting smaller, making the car faster, 
but giving the driver less room inside the car.
The best thing about the COTs is more room around the driver, 
but that's simply going back to the size interior that cars used to have, not a new innovation.
So, to say the COT is a safer car based on its technology, is a misconception,
and saying the older cars were not safe is the same.
I mean, Steve Grissom literally walked away from this....






I think the safety has more to do with the safer barrier.

Rich


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## grungerockjeepe (Jan 8, 2007)

Pomfish said:


> Uhh..... aren't Dodge Chargers 4 doors?
> So was the Ford Taurus.
> 
> Thanks,
> Keith


Yup. Dont like either one, cept the Charger and only if its a cop car. 

KD, the racing may be great in V-8 supercar I dont doubt that. But Im a CAR guy first and foremost. If I dont like the hardware, you lost me. 2 doors, long hood, short deck and high performance are what its gonna take for a car (as opposed to truck or 4x4) to reel me in.


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## kiwidave (Jul 20, 2009)

Fair enough grungerockjeepe! Each to their own. I am a big fan of American muscle cars and see where you are coming from.


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## SplitPoster (May 16, 2006)

Wouldn't the Challenger look good in race trim, against Camaros and Mustangs? 

BTW, after drying up with the death of the previous generation Camaro/Firebird, the SCCA Trans Am series was reborn this year.







Commentary: starting from the back in a spread out, ragged start to boot! Coming through the pack is a bonus!


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## grungerockjeepe (Jan 8, 2007)

kiwidave said:


> Fair enough grungerockjeepe! Each to their own. I am a big fan of American muscle cars and see where you are coming from.


Exactly! But you aussies get some cool stuff too. I really wish Pontiac would've imported the Holden Monaro as the GTO about 10 years earlier when it wouldve been a huge hit. It was just behind its time and really wouldve fit in alongside the '90s era mustang a lot better than the camaro and firebird of the same time period. 

Sucks we missed out on getting the Holden utes, that was supposed to be the pontiac successor to the El Camino. Its a shame, since it offered a V-8, 6spd manual, muscle car performance and handling, some truck like utility with decent fuel economy. Something like this couldnt possibly fail if the price was reasonable.


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## LeeRoy98 (Jul 8, 2005)

AfxToo said:


> The surest way to kill interest in some pure things is to "Go Pro."
> 
> Applies to slot car racing as well.


I do understand the dis-illusionment with today's racing. I just think some of it is our own maturity vs. the idealism of youth and the remainder is the safety changes that cannot be rolled back. 
I thank all for a great discussion, I don't agree with a lot of people. But that is just my opinion and has no more value than any other. 
But I have to applaud AfxToo for bringing up this important point. For all that don't like where we are today with NASCAR... take your local slot racing group back to the roots and have fun!!

Gary
AKA LeeRoy98
www.marioncountyraceway.com


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

LeeRoy98, I truly appreciate your positive feedback. The points you made about NASCAR really did make me realize that we, myself included, very often do have an idealized perspective of the past and only recall the good parts and overlook the bad. Another name for this is nostalgia, and while it brings warm feelings and fond memories, it's not an accurate compass for directing our future endeavors, at least, not unless we can handle the consequences of reality that will soon set in and lead to "aha" moments of diminished enthusiasm.

I am also a proponent of amateurism. I think we experience the greatest joy when we are playing at that level. When we try to elevate to the next level we tend to narrow the focus, reduce the population of participants, reduce the participation, and transform what was once done for pure enjoyment into a task, a job, or worse, a spectator sport where we are only a spectator. I see this phenomena played out in so many areas from sports, music, leisure activities like cycling, and of course slot cars. Even computer uber geek John Dvorak of PC Magazine fame wrote a recent article about this phenomena, and he even brought slot cars up as an example!

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2341238,00.asp

So, not matter what we think about NASCAR and how we would certainly do a much better job with it than the crew who is running it today (uh huh), with slot cars and slot car racing we actually do have the ability to influence and control the game and how we play the game. We can set the schedule, we can pick the tracks and equipment, we can decide what's important, and we can decide the rewards and prizes. We get to decide whether to emphasize amateurism and wide participation or "Go Pro" and see the level of competition elevate along with all of the potential consequences, good and bad. We can do a bit of both or pick a point on the curve that achieves a good balance for you and your group. I prefer to actively manage the set point and keep it decidedly skewed towards the amateur focus. I never want to give up up the pure joy of "just doing it" no matter how shiny the prizes look on the other end of the scale.


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## Ligier Runner (Nov 29, 2004)

Well said. You reminded me of something as I was reading your thoughts on the amateur aspect and wide participation. That right there was the whole reason I enjoyed playing "schoolyard football" as a youth. I was pretty good (if I do say so myself) and actually had other kids trying to talk me into joining the school football team. I had zero desire to do that. In my opinion, most of the fun was sucked out of it when you joined in at that level. I prefer my hobbies/interests remain fun instead of work.


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## roadrner (Jul 21, 1999)

Ligier Runner said:


> I prefer my hobbies/interests remain fun instead of work.


Reminds me way back in the day when I started playing music, sitting around with a few friends and an impromtu jam session was a blast. Then we decided we would make some money doing what we liked to do. First thing you know, fun became work. Practice, practice, weekend gigs, your day job, family, practice, on and on. I understood the time was needed if you were going to keep busy playing, but it definitely lost the fun aspect after a couple years. 

Well, nowadays having a couple of old buddies over, some good food and drink, then get out the instruments. Total blast, even if we hit a few bad notes. When we get tired of that, we'll go down to the Batcave and pull out some TJets and go back intime 30 some years! Sweet. 

:thumbsup::thumbsup: rr


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## Jerzferno (Aug 19, 2007)

I hear ya. All my hero's are gone from racing. Tim Richmond. Dale Earnhardt, Bobby/Donnie/Davey Allison, Neil Bonnet, Ricky Rudd, Darrell Waltrip, etc. Just doesnt do it for me anymore. I used to go to Pocono twice a year. Havent done that in a while.


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## smalltime (Jun 3, 2006)

Wow,
I LOVE Martinsville.

I hate NASFARCE. After they give Jimmy three chances at winning the deal today, I need to say here that I'm SO CLOSE to being done with this crap.


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## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)

I'll watch 'dega yet, then I am done for the year. :thumbsup:


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