# The party is officially over



## Pomfish (Oct 25, 2003)

Just logged onto Paypal and lo and behold there is the new "Electronic Communications Delivery Policy (e-Sign Disclosure and Consent)

And what exactly is in there you might ask?
Oh..... just the part about getting a 1099 form sent to you and big brother.
That's right, why do you think they (epay) Forced everyone to use paypal a year ago?
If you chose "remind me later" a new window comes up and informs you your account will be suspended in jan 2012. So that must be the doomsday date to agree. I would imagine they will just send your 1099 anyway for the previous year after you consent. Don't know what would happen if you just let the account die.

Here's what I do not understand. If I buy a product with money I already paid taxes to earn, then sell it at a loss later, why does the gov't deserve an additional tax on those monies?

And how do you claim the profit and or loss versus the gross amount of the 1099?
These figures I would imagine are the amount before paypal fees.
So you are asked to be taxed on an amount of money you did not receive.

I saw this coming a few years back and invested the time and small fee to get a tax number so this will not effect me totally.
I guess what I need to know is this. Am I better to not withdraw funds and just spend from my paypal account on things I need to buy anyway, or does that not make a difference?

The real way to play ball with this is to do it the legal way and start your own business and document every stinking mile to and from shows, suppliers, post office, bank, etc. 
Had lunch with potential buyers? Discuss business at that dinner and Get a receipt and claim it.
You can show a loss for something like 3 years.

This will be good subject that will effect alot of us.


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## pshoe64 (Jun 10, 2008)

I continue to be amazed that I can walk around at a brisk pace with the government's hands in my pockets. Orwell doesn't seem so Sci-Fi anymore. Big Brother gets to see what I do, where I go, what I buy, what I eat, etc etc etc. Ooh, did I type that out loud????:freak:

"Any government that grants its citizens everything, can also take it away".

-Paul


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## plymouth71 (Dec 14, 2009)

already happening in canada...


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## videojimmy (Jan 12, 2006)

actually, from I understand... if you sell at a loss, you can write the loss off..

still, this sucks


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## Pomfish (Oct 25, 2003)

This will make the accountants happy 

What makes me angry is there was no warning. 
Look at how many items you buy something at a slot show or flea market and you have no receipt for it therefore no way to prove profit/loss. 
Why wait until april to inform sellers of these changes? 
Not fair.

Keep in mind also that the states will be getting this information so now they are going to want tax collected. PITHA.
Later


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## bearsox (Apr 22, 2006)

*I'm not sure how all this will play out but i have still used for both sides be it purchases and sales money orders in many dealings. Whenever possible i ask if the seller will accept a money order. Not because i can't pay with paypal but because i want to develop a mindset as often as i can amongst ebayers. Likewise if anyone asks me about using a MO to buy i allways say hell ya i prefer it ! Keeps fees from me and money away from ebay and paypals greedy little hands. By doing this they can't track via checkout and if they can't do that then is the deal officially done ? And if not done how can they 1099 ya ? So if ya work to do as many MO deals and spread the word to use ebay but deal in MO's as Ebay still allows it when the buyer asks .... Hummm then is ther major shrinkage in the 1099 ? This may work atleast temp till they slam it but then we can hope some smart guy figures another back door way to bypass the 1099 effort still.

Bear :wave: *


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## Sir Slotsalot (Jan 23, 2010)

This is why I prefer not to use Paypal. Although it gives your business "global exposure" to customers, it also gives unwanted exposure to the tax people and others who want to get their hooks into you for something. I don't mind paying taxes on revenue from my business but I prefer not to be monitored in such an invasive way.

"Every rose has its thorns"


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## Pomfish (Oct 25, 2003)

bearsox said:


> *I'm not sure how all this will play out but i have still used for both sides be it purchases and sales money orders in many dealings. Whenever possible i ask if the seller will accept a money order. Not because i can't pay with paypal but because i want to develop a mindset as often as i can amongst ebayers. Likewise if anyone asks me about using a MO to buy i allways say hell ya i prefer it ! Keeps fees from me and money away from ebay and paypals greedy little hands. By doing this they can't track via checkout and if they can't do that then is the deal officially done ? And if not done how can they 1099 ya ? So if ya work to do as many MO deals and spread the word to use ebay but deal in MO's as Ebay still allows it when the buyer asks .... Hummm then is ther major shrinkage in the 1099 ? This may work atleast temp till they slam it but then we can hope some smart guy figures another back door way to bypass the 1099 effort still.
> 
> Bear :wave: *


Well, when your customer leaves you feedback that would pretty much indicate that the deal did happen.

I look for Epay to narc you out to big brother as well.
Side deals without any electronic trace is your only avenue.
Or trades, the gov hates trades.


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## bearsox (Apr 22, 2006)

Pomfish said:


> Well, when your customer leaves you feedback that would pretty much indicate that the deal did happen.
> 
> I look for Epay to narc you out to big brother as well.
> Side deals without any electronic trace is your only avenue.
> Or trades, the gov hates trades.


*So far it has not hit my fees to indicate they have a non checkout remedy. Although i must confess i tend not to step into the feedback zone when doing a MO deal as that offers up a potential tracer element. I think i may have on occasion received a feedback from these type dealings in the past but don't think i got the fee then either but not sure ..... Hummm it has been awhile but if you don't do feedback it's off the table.

Bear :wave: *


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

If you're just a regular guy selling a few slots every so often, I don't know how anyone is going to tell whether you made a profit or a loss. I have thousands of new slots and no real record of how much I paid for them, although I have rough estimates. So if I decide to sell something, what is my profit/loss? The bad part about this is that the government will see only one side - the revenue side.

For the most part, I only use Paypal to buy. I haven't liked taking payments via Paypal and this will make me less inclined to do so. I just don't need the hassle.

So it seems that if you buy a car new for $20, use it for a year, and then sell it for $10, can you claim a $10 loss, plus your expenses in selling it? Hum?

Of course, if I was General Electric this wouldn't bother me since I wouldn't have to pay income taxes anyway. There's too big to fail and now there's too big to tax.

Joe


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## indyboy (Feb 5, 2003)

Grandcheapskate said:


> If you're just a regular guy selling a few slots every so often, I don't know how anyone is going to tell whether you made a profit or a loss. I have thousands of new slots and no real record of how much I paid for them, although I have rough estimates. So if I decide to sell something, what is my profit/loss? The bad part about this is that the government will see only one side - the revenue side.
> 
> For the most part, I only use Paypal to buy. I haven't liked taking payments via Paypal and this will make me less inclined to do so. I just don't need the hassle.
> 
> ...


Plus they get a freaking tax check back! talkin about GE


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## Pomfish (Oct 25, 2003)

OK, this may not be as bad as I first thought.
I just scanned over the "User Agreement" (yeah all of it)
and found this;

4.7 Taxes. It is your responsibility to determine what, if any, taxes apply to the payments you make or receive, and it is your responsibility to collect, report and remit the correct tax to the appropriate tax authority. PayPal is not responsible for determining whether taxes apply to your transaction, or for collecting, reporting or remitting any taxes arising from any transaction. You acknowledge that in starting in 2011, PayPal will report to the Internal Revenue Service the total amount of the payments you receive each calendar year into all the Accounts you own if you(i) receive more than $20,000, and (ii) receive more than 200 payments, in that calendar year.

Thoughts?


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## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

thoughts? that someone was yelling "FIRE" in a crowded theater before they realized it was part of the movie?


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## Pomfish (Oct 25, 2003)

Yeah OK, you win


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## wheelszk (Jul 8, 2006)

Feel the love.


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

alpink said:


> thoughts? that someone was yelling "FIRE" in a crowded theater before they realized it was part of the movie?


 No, it really wasn't yelling "fire". This may actually be a significant change for some people. Granted, most of us will probably not do $20,000 worth of business on Paypal, but it is important to realize that the rules have been changed starting in 2011. It is good to know and allows us to prepare for the potential of having to keep track of every sale.

Joe


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## pshoe64 (Jun 10, 2008)

And it will continue to snowball. Senator Dick Durbin from Illinois plans to introduce an Internet sales tax bill shortly after April 15th. http://news.cnet.com/8301-31921_3-20052999-281.html
I sell around $1000-3000 a year in resin bodies. The profits go right back to silicone and resin and new sculpting efforts. Guess that will thin down a bit after the govt takes their bigger slice.

The one place we have positive economic activity we'll strangle off. 

I think election day should be April 16th. Boy would that change things! I now work from Jan-to the 2nd week of May paying taxes before I start seeing money in my pocket. Sure does kill off the slot car purchases. I would sure contribute more to the economy if I could keep more of what I earn. Done ranting, putting the soapbox away. Thanks for the tolerance. 

-Paul


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## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

since way before computers were invented it has been the duty/responsibility of all persons living in the United States of America to pay Income Taxes. the key word is Income, regardless of source. there have always been deductions, which can easily be found in the tax code for expenses. pretending that this particular change at PayPal is the end of freeloading by those who prefer NOT to pay their share does not go over well with those who bear their burden quietly.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

Considering the US government is in the red by about 1.5 trillion this year - taxes could be a LOT worse. There are really only three things that contribute to national spending in a very big way: 1) defense, 2) medicare/medicaid, and 3) social security. Heck, the interest payment on the national debt is the #4 largest expenditure after the "big 3." 

Which ones are you going to cut? Which ones are you going to cut in a big enough way to stop the deficit growth and without crippling the economy and killing the recovery? 

Collecting taxes on E-Bay sales profits isn't going to make a tiny dent in the bigger problem, but things could be a whole lot worse than they currently are.


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## martybauer31 (Jan 27, 2004)

One more reason to stop selling using paypal and start selling to trusted folks on sites like this with money orders....


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## pshoe64 (Jun 10, 2008)

HIstory lesson: Federal taxes did not come into existence until 1861 to pay for the Union war effort. Only states and territories collected taxes at the local level. I pay my taxes. My paycheck from January through the 2nd week of May covers my tax burden. That's my whole paycheck from January through the 2nd week of May. My overtly high tax burden. If I were a "customer" of the services my taxes pay for, I'd ask for a refund. I fact I am the voter/employer of these jokers that take my money and spend it frivolously or foolishly. If I had the authority, I'd fire them all. Let them collect the unemployment check for a change instead of the regular citizen. Add up all the taxes you pay, every receipt, payroll, tariff, etc. It gets to be a scary total real quick. If I don't make my budget, I don't get to ask for more money (or take it) from my employer. Why does govt? And I didn't get a bailout. Shouldn't each tax payer get a refund of one GM vehicle of their choice? We paid for it already.

Okay, so I didn't get off the soapbox, but I took offense at the thought that someone may think I don't pay my obligations as a citizen.

-Paul


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

I was wondering if there was a minimum. 
You cant tell me that if you get 185 payments, and make $16,500, that that wont be noted.
The governments view is that everything in this country, including all you own and make, belongs to the government.
They are just trying to decide how much we deserve to keep. What a bunch of morons.
The hated King George, who we fought a revolution to get away from, wasn't asking for as much tax as we pay now.

I haven't sold on eBay in a few years now. I closed the account attached to paypal and attached a credit card.
This way, I have some recourse to dispute their fees, without just tapping and overdrawing a bank account.
They have recently informed me that I am approaching my 'sending limit' without being confirmed.
Confirmed means I need to attach bank account. Not gonna happen. Been fine without them.


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## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

and, you should take offense. you live in the freest nation in the world and your tax burden isn't any bigger than mine. if you don't like it in this country, MOVE. LEAVE. find a better place to live and go there. do it. do it now. you are free to leave. not many people on this planet have that luxury.


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## pshoe64 (Jun 10, 2008)

I spent 13 years keeping your freedoms available. You're welcome. I've seen the places that are not free, up close and personal.

-Paul


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## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

as a veteran, you should know, more than anyone, the value we get for our tax dollars. I respect all veterans and gratefully thank them for their service. this discussion was never about the sacrifice veterans of any service make for their nation.


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## micyou03 (Apr 8, 2003)

I have been reading that the bill was repealed. I am still trying to find it from a more reputable source though. It was part of the health care bill. Here is what I found so far.

http://blog.comptia.org/2011/04/12/new-health-it-coordinator-mostashari-will-stay-the-course/

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0411/52577.html

It just happened today.


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## plymouth71 (Dec 14, 2009)

Ya Know... We got a lot of room up here in Canada... Fresh Air, Fresh Water, Cheap Gas, Good Beer


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## [email protected] (Jan 31, 2010)

Big woman too ! 
They need the lovin also:thumbsup:



Just kidding Plymouth. I do admit you have good beer.


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

Well, we got our first electric car 'refueling' station in the DFW area last week.
The excited news reporter didn't mention the cost of 'refueling', or how long it would take.
The 'pump' looked like a gas pump, had multiple meters on it like a gas pump.
I wonder how much road and sales tax is on an 'electric gallon'.
Is it going to be illegal or too costly to have your own charging station at home?
Looks like going green means the green of money. The taxing schemes just keep getting more elaborate.
I'm telling you folks, this keeps up and we will have amp hour meters on our slot car tracks.
The tax codes change every year, and deductions have been gradually going away.
Deductions, are now being referred to as tax expenditures, meaning 
what it costs the govt to allow you to keep what you earn.
Taxes are necessary, and provide us with much needed government services.
But, with times this tough, the questions need to be asked by those paying: where is all the money going?
In Texas: the average car gets inspected for $40, and registered for $70 each year.
There are nearly 7.5 million households with an average of 2 cars per house.
You do the math. That does not include the tax on gas and tollways, and yet, 
they are building tollways everywhere. Built with Federal help. Where does the money go?
The North Texas Tollway Authority is in financial trouble. Is that funny?
This is the same NTTA that thought it would be a brilliant move to go cashless,
and let all their booth attendants go, in favor of electronic surveillance, to lower costs.
Shortly after that move, the NTTA CEO announced that they need to raise tolls,
because traffic was down. Hmm, makes perfect sense to a donkey.
One problem, the photos and videos are not always legible to computers, so, 
the NTTA is now employing the Oklahoma State Correctional facilities to run quality
control on its electronic surveillance. Sounds like a bad dream to me.
They call i30 between Dallas and Fort Worth "the old turnpike". That's because it was a 
tollway until it was paid for, then became a free interstate after that.
Governments no longer see paying for things anymore, they look for income streams.
That mentality is as bad as a mafia to me. Sure, you get protection as long as you pay.
Addiction: nicotine, crack, cocaine, it's all bad, but none bad as a Government addicted to your money.

WHERE DOES ALL THE MONEY GO?


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

revolt


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## Crimnick (May 28, 2006)

This thread should be jettisoned into the sun NOW before anyone says another politcal thing...

We should be able to play with toy cars without having to hear a bunch of politcal BS that I get to hear everywhere else...


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## tjd241 (Jan 25, 2004)

*Tip'o the iceberg...*



Pomfish said:


> OK, this may not be as bad as I first thought.
> Thoughts?


Please put your seatbacks and tray tables in the upright position and fasten your seatbelts. Every business, every govt entity and taxing authority, every single one... is now actively seeking to lower operating costs and increase profit. Everthing is fair-game and on the table. In this case Step 1 is to implement this process. Watch for Step 2 to be lowering the IRS reportable amount or a hike in the tax of these sales (or both). Then watch for a "fee" increase. Bet on it... They're betting you have no choice and you'll continue to bear your burden quietly. 

:hat:


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

Yeah, getting the camel into the tent is their first goal.

Once inside you'll never get it out.


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

Sorry about the political rant. Where did the edit button go?


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## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

my edit feature is working just fine, thank you.


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## Sir Slotsalot (Jan 23, 2010)

I wonder if the IRS really has the time or inclination to individually audit us hobbyists. For most of us, it's a "labor of love". We are not making a "killing" doing what we do. At best, we might make enough to pay for more toys. LOL! I'd like to think the IRS has bigger fish to fry but realistically, us little guys are an easy target. It's kinda like the police going after either dangerous felons or handing out speeding tickets. Which task is easier and generates more revenue? I think we all know the answer. The big rich guys who lobby (grease the palms of) the lawmakers are always looking for ways to glean money off the backs of the working class. Paypal & Ebay are just more venues for them to do it to us. It was just a matter of time before they latched on to it.

I'm not going to let all this spoil my day, I'm going to my "happy place" now... the slot car track. I can speed there and not get a ticket. LOL!!


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## Bubba 123 (Sep 10, 2010)

NTxSlotCars said:


> I was wondering if there was a minimum.
> You cant tell me that if you get 185 payments, and make $16,500, that that wont be noted.
> The governments view is that everything in this country, including all you own and make, belongs to the government.
> They are just trying to decide how much we deserve to keep. What a bunch of morons.
> ...




next year's 1040 will b dropped 4 the 1040-A;
"how much did U make/recieve in anyform of $$$,...send it IN 2 IRS.."

Bubba 123 :freak:


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## bearsox (Apr 22, 2006)

AfxToo said:


> Considering the US government is in the red by about 1.5 trillion this year - taxes could be a LOT worse. There are really only three things that contribute to national spending in a very big way: 1) defense, 2) medicare/medicaid, and 3) social security. Heck, the interest payment on the national debt is the #4 largest expenditure after the "big 3."
> 
> Which ones are you going to cut? Which ones are you going to cut in a big enough way to stop the deficit growth and without crippling the economy and killing the recovery?
> 
> Collecting taxes on E-Bay sales profits isn't going to make a tiny dent in the bigger problem, but things could be a whole lot worse than they currently are.


While i agree the big 3 need a look ..... ignoring the little stuff is truely why we are where we are 1st and foremost. The mentality is like sitting down at a picnic and being so concern that the dog will steal your sandwich that you forget the ants will invade and ruin the entire meal ! That's the gov for ya .... what's the recent Obamaisum tagline BS special Scalpel vs Machette ? Ya right. 

Bear :wave:


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

The problems I see if Paypal is going to send a 1099 to the IRS are the following:

1. The IRS will see only the revenue side (the money you took in).
2. The IRS will see any money collected for postage as revenue.

In our would of slot cars, I would venture to say that 99.999999999999% of us do not have receipts or records for the cars we've purchased. Therefore, determining a profit/loss on the money collected via Paypal if we sell some cars would be impossible. Of course, for those of us who simple dabble on eBay, we should stay well below the $20K threshold.

For those who run a business, or use eBay for business, record keeping is a must.

The hassle could come if you liquidate a large collection or actually sell a lot of old "junk". You already paid for that stuff and are just getting something for it. However, if all that shows up as revenue, it could just lead to problems you don't need. If you are making money, then you should pay taxes. If you're getting back half of what you paid for something, that shouldn't be considered revenue. The problem arises if you need to prove that because it shows up on Paypal as revenue.

Joe


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## tjd241 (Jan 25, 2004)

*Nuthin Personal...*



Sir Slotsalot said:


> I wonder if the IRS really has the time or inclination to individually audit us hobbyists. I'd like to think the IRS has bigger fish to fry but realistically, us little guys are an easy target. <<snip>>
> I'm not going to let all this spoil my day, I'm going to my "happy place" now... the slot car track. I can speed there and not get a ticket. LOL!!


A 1099 is a 1099 is a 1099... Yer just a number. They don't care if you got the income from your Nightcrawler farm or from the sale of Grandma's Civil War cast iron skillet collection... For the audit process there is a dollar amount threshold they zero in on, a set of "red flags" they determine are ones to watch for, and a list of tapayers that fall in that category. From there it's likely an Nth name selection from that list that determines who they are going to audit. Generally speaking they have 3 years from the date you file a return to audit you. 6 years in certain cases. 

The 800lb Gorilla is now in the room... He's not leaving and he's hungry. SO... run some cars, build some cars, buy/sell some cars, and flip the big ape a banana now and then... By all means though, don't let'em spoil yer fun. Just do like Joe Cheapskate says... Keep good records and be prepared to prove what you filed for (or didn't file for). It's a necessary evil. Pain in the arse and fundamentally unfair for the little guys?... yes. Likely to be reduced, repealed, or relaxed?... not a chance. Gorillas *love* bananas.


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