# Brushless and Lipos in Racing



## brandonizr

Just a post of frustration...
When are the older generation guys who run the races going to open up to the brushless 13.5 in stock and Lipos in modified??? It might be acceptable some places but this really needs to catch on, it is part of new technology which is a move forward...
One argument to the 13.5 in stock - it is suppose to be an entry class and cost minimizing but brushed motors do cost more in the long run with lathes, brushes etc...a great analogy is in supercross they race 2 strokes and 4 strokes together, the racer has a choice on what he prefers
To Lipos being dangerous, yes if handled incorrectly any battery will be, shorting out a charged NiMH could shoot a cell into a wall(i've seen pics) or a fire in the pits
Also to Lipos - some say the volts are higher, well, a lower turned motor will have the same affect, too much power won't always do it, but the ease of a Lipo and just recharging instead of all the time needed for proper care of a NiMH just makes sense
Just trying to get some points out there to get this moving, if i'm not heard at least the effort has been made....Feel free to add to this


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## RPM

brandonizr said:


> Just a post of frustration...
> When are the older generation guys who run the races going to open up to the brushless 13.5 in stock and Lipos in modified??? It might be acceptable some places but this really needs to catch on, it is part of new technology which is a move forward...
> One argument to the 13.5 in stock - it is suppose to be an entry class and cost minimizing but brushed motors do cost more in the long run with lathes, brushes etc...a great analogy is in supercross they race 2 strokes and 4 strokes together, the racer has a choice on what he prefers
> To Lipos being dangerous, yes if handled incorrectly any battery will be, shorting out a charged NiMH could shoot a cell into a wall(i've seen pics) or a fire in the pits
> Also to Lipos - some say the volts are higher, well, a lower turned motor will have the same affect, too much power won't always do it, but the ease of a Lipo and just recharging instead of all the time needed for proper care of a NiMH just makes sense
> Just trying to get some points out there to get this moving, if i'm not heard at least the effort has been made....Feel free to add to this



Its not because of the new technology, some guys just like working on brushed motors.

The lipo batteries are getting better in time as far as higher discharge rates (C).
The lipo batteries have a lot lower IR then Nimh batteries will ever have.

Soon the lipo batteries will take over and Nimh batteries will go like the Ncad batteries.

I say in a few years new lipo-poly???
You just never know...


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## brandonizr

i hear you on that they like working on the brushed motors, that's fine, but they shouldn't restrict it to only brushed, let the racer choose


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## McLin

brandonizer here is some reading for you: http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=174150http://www.rc-oval.com/lipobatteries.html


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## swtour

brandonizr,

The answer is easy...if you see/like a certain type of racing and you believe in it 100% then maybe YOU should create the NEWEST Racing Organization and set forth the rules..

Then you just have to get people to come and run it.


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## brandonizr

thanks for the links McLin, good reading


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## BIGKAHUNA

Originally Posted by brandonizr
Just a post of frustration...
When are the older generation guys who run the races going to open up to the brushless 13.5 in stock and Lipos in modified??? It might be acceptable some places but this really needs to catch on, it is part of new technology which is a move forward...
One argument to the 13.5 in stock - it is suppose to be an entry class and cost minimizing but brushed motors do cost more in the long run with lathes, brushes etc...a great analogy is in supercross they race 2 strokes and 4 strokes together, the racer has a choice on what he prefers
To Lipos being dangerous, yes if handled incorrectly any battery will be, shorting out a charged NiMH could shoot a cell into a wall(i've seen pics) or a fire in the pits
Also to Lipos - some say the volts are higher, well, a lower turned motor will have the same affect, too much power won't always do it, but the ease of a Lipo and just recharging instead of all the time needed for proper care of a NiMH just makes sense
Just trying to get some points out there to get this moving, if i'm not heard at least the effort has been made....Feel free to add to this 

I LIKE IT... I HAVE BEEN SAYING THE SAME THING FOR THIS SEASON. THE OLD GUYS ARE THE ONES THAT GET THERE BATTERIES FOR FREE.

LI-PO IS THE BEST AND THE EASY WAY TO GET NEW GUYS INTO RACING. THE COST IS SO MUCH LOWER IN THE LONG RUN. AND BRUSHLESS IS THE BEST ALSO. I WISH I HAD THE CHANCE TO GO ALL LI-PO AND BRUSHLESS I WOULD HAVE ALOT MORE MONEY.

I KNOW. 1500.00 IN CHARGERS AND 600.00 IN DISCHARGERS PLUS 600.00 OR MORE FOR BATTERIES AND 1200.00 FOR MOTORS. THATS JUST FOR BATTERIES AND MOTORS. I RUN 3 CLASSES.

ONE BATTERY ONE MOTOR. CHARGE THE BATTERY AT HOME. TAKE A CAR CONTROLLER AND TIRE GOOP AND GO RACE. WOW WOULD THAT BE EASY.

I WENT RACING LAST WEEK. RAN 3 CLASSES. I CHARGED BATTERIES FOR 6 HOURS AND I RAN 3 CLASSES FOR A TOTAL OF 36 MIN. OF RACING. NOW THAT IS WAY TO MUCH WORK TO RACE.


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## McLin

Let's see; Gary McAllister, swtour and me.....are some of the "old guys" that are leading the charge for the Lipo / Brushless movement. So it’s not ALL the old guys that are stuck on brushed motors LOL

Everything you guys are saying is true (except for the charge at home thing, they do run better right off the charger) and the time for making the change over at local tracks is now. Most of the organizations will not make a rule change or class restructure until they see an interest in any new deal on a large scale. ARCOR is the only organization so far that can see where this is going and is working on a brushless/lipo class.

Here is a quick breakdown on cost: $150 (or less) for a top of the line charger (must have for LiPo), $90 for ONE Orion 3200 Carbon pack (all the battery you will need). $2.00 for a set of banana plugs from Radio Shack to charge with and your brushless setup. That should hold you for about two YEARS of racing. There is just no comparison in money to brushed and NiMH battery racing.

Now, think about this; a 4300 brushless motor and the Orion LiPo pack is about as cheap as you can possibly get to run a mild modified class “every week” at your local track. That setup is about the same speed as 8 or 9 turn, 4 cell setup……..and did I mention, just ONE battery pack to race all day!

At the present time there is no brushless motor available to get it down to Stock speeds but keep the faith…….it’s on its way! And no I don’t mean the 18.5 motor.


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## The Stig

I know for me personally, brushless and Lipo has been the best thing to happen to this hobby. With a family now I don't have all the time I would like to have to enjoy my car. Now instead of tweaking and rebuilding the motors and soldering battery packs and blah blah blah I can just charge and race or charge and bash. Recently I sold off almost all of my Nicd and brushed motor stuff and replaced it with a Mamba setup and Lipos. No regrets!! Unfortunately it's limited my racing options, but I get more time doing what I like - running the crap out of my car.


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## gezer2u

I heard this week end from a race director that ROAR will insure Lipo's next year. So, things are moving forward there.

Oh, I saw this on FMA direct

 "All FMA electronic products are designed and produced in FMA facilities or associate firms in the US with minor exceptions. There are no US producers of competitively priced Li Po cells. However, Kokam has been most cooperative in developing cells that have been suggested from FMA. We leave that development to the true Li Po experts and make no claims of having designed or perfected Li Po cells. It is a costly process and Kokam spent over 10$ million US Dollars to perfect the HDR capability that they claim.

The need for high discharge rate actually comes from the power tool industry that purchases about one half billion Ni Cd and Ni MH cells per year. During marketing efforts to power tool manufacturers, the primary requirements are for safety and sanctity of intellectual property. From that, FMA derived the need for "locked -in" safety that had not been present in large Li Po packs that operate "open end" with only external protective devices that are not standardized. It may interest the reader to know that the Portable Power Institute reported that over 1.6 billion Li cells were produced in the past year. About 0.1% of those went to RC users.

Regarding the size of the BalancePro HD connector: a means is described in the manual to reduce the size of the HD connector by removal of the metal housing. When that is done, the connector is just slightly larger than our standard Deans Ultra connector. It is the users choice.

Design at FMA is done with professional input from all levels in the firm from the warehouse to engineering to marketing to management. All are competent modelers. Every product undergoes significant beta test.

Our thanks to Mr Jim Young for as thorough a review of the system as we have ever seen for any RC product.

Fred Marks, pres.
FMA, Inc."  

Interesting.


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## Ralf

Hopefully they will package the new motor with their new XBR Sport Esc for a reasonably priced package for the newcomer. NOVAK is really getting behind Oval Racing and Brushless, thanks. Ralf


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## JoeDirte

I am eagerly awaithing a lipo/BL STOCK replacement. But SLOWER than stock 4cell? Spec class?


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## swtour

Patrick,

Probably not quite as slow as spec, but maybe a tad slower than current 4 cell stock. 

Mainly because we know once guys figure these things out they will get faster than what and how we do our testing, so we don't want what looks like a good speed to be ruined right off the bat by some of the top guys getting a good setup and making them run as fast as a current 19t.

Some of the hurdles we face are track sizes and gearing. Where an indoor carpet track might only be 97 - 110 ft. run line and the Encino Velodrome closer to 900 ft. it might be very complicated to get a ratio for both types of facilities.

I can envision on a VELODROME this class needing to run about a 15% OVERDRIVE gear ratio..LOL (Meaning the Spur is smaller than the pinion by 15%) ...all joking aside, I'm very excited to see NoVAK taking interest in Oval racing again...and they WILL build what we need I believe. One of the nicest things is that the can, endbell and rotor can ALL be the same...


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## swtour

Ralf,

That would be a cool package for the NEW GUYS coming in.


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## JoeDirte

This will be great! 
I was hoping for a 13.5/4 cell type speed. They run this at my bro's track in MO. and it seems to be about 2-3 laps faster than brushed 27T. But I will run the most cost effective speed. I have always been a fan of Novak, customer service is key for me. 
Thanks Joe


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## McLin

While the COF class will have certain restrictions in regard to ESC, body, etc., the other two classes will be more open in reagrd to these. 

I hope by "more open" you will still just be sticking with Novak for the Speed Controls and motors.


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## Ralf

Please stick with the NOVAK equipment, level playing field, and we owe them for what they have done and are doing FOR BRUSHLESS OVAL. It seems all the other brushless mfgs have decided the largest market share is in offroad, touring, and bashing. NOVAK is listening and supplying Oval racing. My .02 Ralf


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## McLin

Personally, I have no interest in Spec type racing but I have been doing this for 20+ years. What we need is a better way for racers to get started and/or continue to race weekly with less expense. This is exactly what this new deal will be.

In my opinion, this is where this change over has to start, at the entry, Spec or Stock level. What I tested is great for what I do and it will catch on by itself as soon as people open their eyes and see how inexpensive it is while still keeping the speed.

As I have said many times in these discussions, brushless and LiPo batteries are our future. Don’t let you or your track be the last to find out how good it is. Support what ARCOR is doing and encourage your track to do the same.


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## gezer2u

This should help. It has a street price of $179.99 at Tower.

http://www.teamnovak.com/products/brushless/ex_systems/index.html


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## gezer2u

How is testing on the prototype motor from Novak going?


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## McLin

gezer2u - I'm not sure.......I think I got fired from the testing program. LOL


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## swtour

Scot Petitclerc (2006 SWTour Modified Champion and current record holder at the Encino Velodrome) came up to run with us at our local club race today and to help me do some testing w/ the NOVAK test motor.

After todays test...we found a legitimate replacement motor...for 4300/4 cell and/or 19t 4cell. 

We put Scot in our stock class and let him play through the 4 qualifiers and he just kept getting faster and faster.

In the mains we moved him into our mixed 19t/4300 4cell class. Scot was running the UNMARKED TEST MOTOR w/ his Peak / Orion LIPO and YES, it WAS Faster than the 4 cell 4300...AND the 4 cell 19t (ARCOR Legal Mt. Fuji based motor) ALL 3 were SOOO close on Top Speed and the mains DID yield the quickest lap times

NOVAK TEST MOTOR - Fastest Lap 6.235 (Scot Petitclerc)
4cell 19t - Fastest Lap 6.253 (Jamison Bartlett)
4cell - 4300 - Fastest Lap 6.305 (John Miles)

Scots car just kept getting faster and faster every lap, and his quickest lap was turned on lap 44 of 46 laps. Where both the 4 cell cars turned their fastest laps in the first 15 laps.

Good stock lap times were in the 6.56 - 6.71 range today. Track is about 300 ft. (Give or take...I didn't run the wheel on it today) and a little loose.

(Post note: Scot was on a good 47 lap pace, but collected a back marker 2 laps from the end causing him to drop from 6.2 on the 44th lap to 8.21 and 7.16 on the last 2 laps.)


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## Ralf

Sound too fast for old farts like me and other newbs, will NOVAK be trying another motor? Good luck, we need something to help keep oval going strong and I Truly bebieve that a brushless/Lipo combo is THE answer. I have jusy got back in (never was great but had FUN racing) and the brushless brought me back. Ralf


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## gezer2u

JB, was that with the orion 3200 pack?


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## gezer2u

Good report JB! Sounds like a winner.


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## Craps

TrueRC now has 8000 mah 2S2P packs for $75.

Check it out: http://home.comcast.net/~truerc/custom_pack.htm

Scroll down about 3/4ths way down the page!


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## Ralf

Problem with those are they look like the soft packs that fliers are using, a good wreck and the cells are damaged and useless unless you figure someway to pack them in a hard case. Ralf


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## The Stig

Easy solution - don't wreck


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## Ralf

The Stig said:


> Easy solution - don't wreck


 I'll have to look for you and remember NOT to pit within a hundred feet of you, don't want to catch fire if your uncased lipo explodes! Ralf


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## Craps

Ralf said:


> Problem with those are they look like the soft packs that fliers are using, a good wreck and the cells are damaged and useless unless you figure someway to pack them in a hard case. Ralf


3 1/2 years in stadium trucks with batteries ejected from the trucks and not one fire and no explosions that is alot of internet gossip and hype from the pro nickel battery crowd that has decieved the entire RC world that li-pos will blow up real easy. That is total garbage!!!!!!!!!!

There is over 50 off road 1/10th scale 2wd Pro Truck Racers in my area that uses 8000 mah 2S li-pos from several different manufacturers with no problems but maybe an occasional over discharge swell up. The class is gaining popularity and is growing very fast with 20 minute mains!!!

I don't want a shell around my li-pos. I want to see if they're is problem with swelling before it is a problem.

Li-pos are safer than NICKEL batteries when handled and charged per the manufacturers instructions. Nickel batteries will explode with no warning and throw hot metal casing like shrapnel from a granade. At least a li-po will give you plenty of warning by swelling up first!

Good luck!


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## Craps

JB said:


> Craps:
> 
> ARCOR has approved the Orion/Peak 3200 Carbon Edition Lipo's for the the saftey factor. These batteries are cased and not just shrinkwarpped. These batteries are designed exclusivly for R/C car racing. For this reason, I would highly recommend that tracks allowing lipo's only allow this battery or the Orion/Peak 4800 Platmuim edition, again, a cased battery.


Orion/Peak probably sponsor the ARCOR or is involved with the board in some way just like the way Ernie Provetti with Trinity controls ROAR's decision making not allowing li-pos because Ernie/Trinity does not sell li-pos yet!!!! Politics in RC racing!!!


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## JB

Craps said:


> Orion/Peak probably sponsor the ARCOR or is involved with the board in some way just like the way Ernie Provetti with Trinity controls ROAR's decision making not allowing li-pos because Ernie/Trinity does not sell li-pos yet!!!! Politics in RC racing!!!


Craps: "Know of what you speak, before you speak". 

It's comments like this that has helped promote the retirement of ARCOR. Feable minded people making statements that they know nothing about. Other's read things like this and think that the poster knows what they are talking about, when in turn they are the least informed. Now some may understand the contex in which I used the term: "lemmings".


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## gezer2u

Geeze... and you post started out so good. If you had done any reading on here you would have known that the orion case is designed to come apart if the pack starts to swell. It's cool that you have had good luck with your lipos, but to say that ARCOR is in with ORION is ridiculous! My questine to you is, Why doesn't the other lipo companies put their batteries in a hard case? It is nothing more then a safety feature.
Oh, ROAR is allowing lipos in 2008.


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## ReasonableDoubt

Roar is allowing lipos in 2008.........wow.......that's great........do you know what kinda classes there will be......for example will it be strictly brushless/lipos.....such as a 4300/orion 4800 class??? that's really great news......
HOORAYYYYYYYYYY.........


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## gezer2u

I haven't read it on the website but the owner of the track that we race at in the winter (Stockton) said that he was told by ROAR that they will insure tracks for lipo's in 2008. So, yeehaa!


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## BIGKAHUNA

yesssssssss li-po. i have the 3200 li-po i run it in off road and rug oval cars.

my li-po i charge at home. put in car turn the voltage down to 55% on controller and i run all day long and never charge again till i get home. now a mess around all day watching guys charge and discharge and charge some more. any one that says ni-mh is the battery to use... has batteries gave to them or they are just no brainers. i have beat my li-pos all day long around a dirt track at home. i meen beat it hard. i just recharge them and go again. 45 min at a time. and they are not even down to 7.4 volts after all that running. they will charge to 8.4 volts i have 2 of them and they both charge the same like clock work.
now the guy that races hard core will not like that because they have no advantage.
i have 5000.00 in chargers dischargers matchers. everytime i run a pack i throw at least one battery away. one battery in every pack will go out of resistance and drop voltage like a rock. and a battery matcher has told me the same thing. if you get 2 or 3 runs with out a battery going bad. you have a 4 leaf clover over them.
now take 50.00 to 100.00 a pack and throw it away after 4 runs. now you know why the pros sell the packs after a race. more than likely there is one in each pack that are bad. i do not race ni-mh but just once in a while when i want to go watch batteries charge all day long. 

with a brushless motor and li-po batteries. rc racing will be on its way back. 

thank you guys for building products to help reduce the cost of racing.


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## Ralf

gezer2u said:


> I haven't read it on the website but the owner of the track that we race at in the winter (Stockton) said that he was told by ROAR that they will insure tracks for lipo's in 2008. So, yeehaa!


 Yes this is GREAT news and I hope the other Organizations will follow suit. BUT they are only going to allow the HARD PACKED Orion packs, which I believe is a GOOD thing for safety. Ralf


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## apenn

Ralf said:


> Problem with those are they look like the soft packs that fliers are using, a good wreck and the cells are damaged and useless unless you figure someway to pack them in a hard case. Ralf


My T4's battery tray is a fairly "hard case".  

Do the fliers put them in hard cases? I'd think that crash durability would be more not less important for planes and helis. 

The Kokam-based packs from Orion and Peak are _really_ nice but they don't have the capacity required to run the longer mains Craps is referring to (at least not in a single pack).

FWIW - I've been running a 6000Mah MaxAmps pack for a couple months now and am getting about 20-25 minutes of run time (depending on the track). 15+ minute mains haven't caught on locally yet but I think we're headed in that direction. (crossing fingers)

I don't want to appear dismissive about safety (I am certainly not) but I think some of the safety concerns about modern LiPos described online are a bit overblown. I think it's no different than many other things; understand what you're doing and follow the directions and you'll be fine. Don't and you'll probably have problems.


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## swtour

apenn,

You may be correct with the safety of LIPOs, but in order for them to be accepted I belive we are better to error on the side of caution...

It's really easy to tell people "USE THEM SAFELY" but racers are racers and most of us know guys will do _WHATEVER_ it takes to get an advantage..especially in OVAL racing.


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## gezer2u

apenn- You are right about your T4 and probably most offroad vehicles have the battery better protected then oval cars and sedans. Both have the battery hanging out in the breeze. And fior Airplanes, I fly RC planes and if you crash you have more "crush zone" and foam padding around the battery. this adds to the safety of your pack. Now a heli is differant thing. I would venture to say that if you crash in a heli at speed, it won't matter what type of case you have. lol 
I do agree with the last paragraph all the way. Thanks for your input!

JB- All right!


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## LARCGuy

JB said:


> *LIPO MODIFIED 4300*
> 
> *5. BATTERIES: **A*: Team Orion Carbon Edition 3200mAh LiPo Race Spec Battery or *B*: PEK43301 Carbon Edition 3200mAh LiPo Race Spec Battery Pack. *ARCOR APPROVED for Sanctioned Lipo events, effective October, 2007*


The 3200 Lipo does not have enough capacity to run a 4300 for 5 minutes.
I stated it elsewhere, but will reiterate it here as well, I would like to see the Orion/Peak 4800 Lipo legal for the mod classes.


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## kevinm

Waaay back in the day, we raced 6-cell modified with 1700's. And 53oz touring cars (mine included) race 5 minutes with old, tired 3300's all the time.


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## Butch

If you go way back in the days, we ran 8 min. 12th scale stock and mod with 1000mah GE batteries.
Butch


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## glassdoctor

Not sure abou the 1000mah cells but I do recall the good ol 1200cells. The red 1200SCRs rocked back in the day!! lol....


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## LARCGuy

JB said:


> LARCGuy: The 3200's work just fine with the 4300 motor and all of ARCOR's classes are 4 minutes. Plenty of run time.


You're right, the four minute race length's that ARCOR uses should be fine with the 3200 lipo. However, my initial post about the 3200 lipo not having enough capacity for the 4300 was based on the racing that I do and have available to me here on the left coast.

Some tracks are very battery friendly and others are not. All the tracks/series that I go to run five minute heats & mains. With 4 cell 4200's, I will have anywhere from 30 to 120 seconds of runtime left depending on how battery friendly the track is. Using esc's with lipo cutoff's, which should probably be mandatory (When racers run down their packs now, they just lose some runtime. Imagine the racer that just wants to finish his race and turns his lipo into a big paper weight), I just don't think the 3200 will be enough. I could be very wrong and I'd love to see a 4300/lipo mod class. Hopefully Joe from the SWT will let us do some controlled testing this year before all the rules are set in place.


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## Stratus54

Wow... we run 3200's with the 4300 B/L in a touring car with foam tires and have plenty of run time.... I cant believe a pan car wont go 5 mins 
The 3200 actually has a little more run time than a NiMh 4200.... dont ask me why cause I dont know 

Heres a quote from Orion on a diff thread 
"The 3200 Li-Po's will give you the same runtime as that of a 4200mAh NIMH matched pack."


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## swtour

Scott,

I've have one 3200 already, and have ordered 2 more that should be here mid week.

Not sure if I'll make mothers day at BCRaceway or not...and I don't know if Raf would let us play with them or not...but I'd like to see them in action on the carpet.

As far as the run time - you sound like you've hung around with the SPONSORED MODIFIED GUYS too long.

What you need to know is - HOW MUCH CAPACITY do I have...and How do I gear to use 100% of that capacity in the time required to finish the race.

When I started racing Sports Mod we had to use 1400's where the Ex. Mod guys were using 1700's. We took our gearing very serious to get 100% out of our batteries, yet finish....this only allowed an average pull of 23 amps from a 6 cell 1400...that's all they had...(The 1700's at that time were closer to 30 amps. With the current 4200's we have what 450+ seconds at 35 amps, which would mean to dump them in 4 minutes you'd have to pull an average of 65-70 amps.)

We had a lot of guys running 'factory team' set ups but they were getting their gearing from guys running the better batteries...and when they listened to the advice they got from those guys....they ALWAYS dumped.

FAST cars are fun, but FAST cars don't always make for the best racing. LIPO/4300 for 4 minutes is as fast as EXPERT MODIFIED 4 cell. I'm hoping if we stay with the 3200's for 5 minutes they will be a tick slower. I'm also hoping that if there are enough guys wanting the speeds of the EXPERT MODIFIED guys..maybe we can reinact the EXPERT CLASS and either run only 4 minutes w/ the 3200s or allow the 4800 sealed pack....either way (3200/4 minute would be first choice to only have to worry about one battery type)

I do think for most of our guys..lipo 4300 will still be too fast, and most will want to run a bit slower...even if they won't admit it....


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## kevinm

How much runtime & speed you have isn't just a matter of milli-Amp hours, it's a matter of how much total ENERGY is in the battery. (That's why the power company charges you by killowatt-hours, not amps or amp-hours.) A 4-cell 4200 NiMh has 4.2 amp-hours x 4.8 Volts = *20.16* Watt-Hours. A 2-cell 3200mAh LiPo has 3.2 amp-hours x 7.4 Volts = *23.68* Watt-Hours. The 3200 LiPo actually has more energy in it at the start of the race, and should actually be able to run faster or longer once you figure out the gearing. 

Back when the 4-cell "movement" was first taking over here in Michigan (I think 3000's were the battery of the day), we ran 4-cell modified for the first time on a large carpet oval. Almost everybody (including sponsored guys and a multi-time national champion) dumped before the 4-minute mark, running mostly 7-turn motors. I think I qualified 2nd, running noticibly slower (but not dumping) with a 9-turn motor (lowest turn I could find on short notice). They eventually figured out the gearing and most finished in the main. At next month's race, the sponsored guys weren't there, and we ran 6-cell 19 turn. Us "amateurs" ran more laps than 4-cell mod the previous month, and nobody dumped. The same sort of math applies to this (long) story. It's easier to make runtime with more volts & less motor, without giving up any speed.


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## nicholcgn

Personally if you want the most safety you want a lipo battery that has more runtime than any guy can use. You said it yourself that people will do whatever they can. One of the biggest problems with lipos comes from over discharge. If you only allowed 4800-5000 Hard cased lipos then you can use orion or trackpowers. You talk about saftey then do something to ensure it. A 4 min race with 4800 battery gives you a margin of safety. I think you have more of a chance with an issues using the lower capacisty pack.

That is my opinion anyway.


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## swtour

nicholcgn

To a degree, I agree with the more power than you can use idea....except, knowing R/C Oval racers..they WILL USE IT...if they have to overgear 20 teeth to dump ALL the energy they have....THEY WILL and then they'll complain they can't go an additional minute because they don't have enough battery....as far as over dumping, as long as we are required to use a lipo cutoff, you will have to deal with the voltage and run time you have...but I much prefer the price of the $80.00 battery vs. the $140.00 battery. 

I've been so impressed w/ the 3200's I've already bought 3 of them...and I hope to get one more in the next few weeks, but I'm not in a hurry. (Then I'll be able to charge ALL 4 at home...and not even have to charge at the track.)


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## LARCGuy

swtour said:


> What you need to know is - HOW MUCH CAPACITY do I have...and How do I gear to use 100% of that capacity in the time required to finish the race.



I do that now already. I guess I was hoping that with the lipo's I could finally be freed forever from the battery dictating to me how I have to gear the car. In my apparently small little world ;-), I would love to be able to gear the car to the size of the track and how the car is handling and NEVER EVER have to worry about how much gas I have in the tank.

But I will use the 3200 lipo if that is the rule. The 4200 batteries the last few months have been killing me! And I cannot wait to say goodbye to them forever.


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## swtour

LOL Scot, 

I hope you didn't take that as being directed right at you...

It's the same arguement I've heard for 21+ years. When we ran 1200's and went to 1400's..(don't even want to talk about all the *1700's*..when we went from 2000's to 3300's (Because most of us SKIPPED 2400's, and alot of us skipped 3000's), it's just one of those deals..that no matter HOW MUCH POWER we have...we seem to find a way to KILL IT in less time than we race...

Funny thing is - the speeds don't increase equally to the amount of energy expended....and when guys get limited...and have to be resourceful...somehow they usually end up going *even faster*


----------



## Craps

I am an off road racer and do not understand the touring or oval car stuff, but you can buy an 8000 mah 2S li-po for only $75 from TrueRC. No hard case that I don't see is needed anyway unless you are planing on driving a screwdriver through a fully charged pack.

Here is a link to TrueRC for the battery: http://home.comcast.net/~truerc/custom_pack.htm

The battery is located about 3/4ths the way down the page under this heading "*Custom built TrueRC 7.4V 2S2P 8000mAh*"!

They are $75 plus $4 for a dean's plug and TP balancer tap added! Great price!


----------



## swtour

Craps,

We run on a bicycle velodrome at speeds w/ 4 cell nimh packs at over 65 mph. When these 40 oz cars hit a wall or pole in a corner, there is very little left of them.

With the lipos we'll probably get ever faster. Why take a chance?

We are known to explode nimh batteries, fry nimh batteries..and knock the batteries into separate cells scattered all over the track....not to mention all the other parts and pieces.

The difference in running and/or crashing a Off-Road truck/buggy at 15-30 mph is extreme.

For touring, I don't think you'd probably puncture a regular lipo however I know several concerned parents of teen age racers who are a bit nervous about their children being involved with them...and *PERCEPTION IS REALITY* in racing.


----------



## McLin

What may be confusing some people is the way we are indoctrinated to “numbers”. The Orion 3200 pack will actually yield more run time (and less heat) than a 4200 NiMH pack because of its lower IR’s. I have seen zero dumping problem with it and the 10.5 brushless motor. I do think for safety reasons the 4800 pack may be better for any Open Modified/Brushless class.

What I can’t understand Joe, is why you bought FOUR packs! Do you have three other friends that race with you? LOL


----------



## swtour

Lin,

I have 4 cars I usually try to play with (including my sons) 2 each. But, moreso I like to have things for guys to test/borrow/use w/o them having to jump in and make the purchase before getting a chance to try it.


----------



## Craps

At the WFRCCC in Fontana, CA, I watched Nic Case run 160+ mph with a 2wd 1/10th scale Custom Works Dirt Oval car and crash into a concrete wall stacked up with 8 li-po cells just velcroed in and that was after he used them in a 4wd 1/10th scale car he crashed at over 130+ mph...oh well it is better to be safe than sorry!!!!


----------



## swtour

Craps..

And Nic has hit the wall with those same cars a few times at our INSANE SPEED RUNS at the Velodrome...


----------



## BIGKAHUNA

I Love Li-po's. I Run At A Track That Just Run 27 Turn Motors And 4 Cell Ni-mh Batteries. These Guys And Me Charge Batteries For 5 Hours And Run 12 In. Oh What Fun It Is Charging Batteries.

I Got Tired Of Charging Ni-mh And Then Find Out After Each Race I Throw 2 Or 3 Cells Away Because There Go Bad That Fast. You Can Have A Ni-mh @ 1.2 Resistance Race It One Time And Be 12.0 And Drain In 4 0 Seconds. Throw 10.00 In The Can.

So I Purchased A 3200 Orion. The Others Ran The Ni-mh Bats. I Turned My Controller Down So I Only Had 5 Volts To The Motor. I Ran All Day Took It Home Took The Same Car Back The Next Week Never Charged It And Ran That Week. It Never Slowed Down. I Did Not Win Because I Did Not Want Them To Know I Had It In There. I Wanted To See How Many Times I Could Run It. I Stoped For The End Of Year Before I Could Drain The Battery To 7.4 Volts.

Li-po Is The Way To Make The Sport Come Back. One Battery At 80.00 And A 35.00 Charger And A New Guy Could Run For 2 Weeks And Never Charge A Battery. Just Put A Resistor In Line To Reduce The Voltage To 5 Volts And They Last It Seems Like For Ever And They Are Just As Fast As A 4 Cell Ni-mh At The Same Cost. But You Do Not Throw Away 10.00 Ever Time You Race.


----------



## nicholcgn

Trackpower has a 4900 lipo that is fairly cheap. 

You might want to look at that becasue it is as cheap as an orion 3200. I could care less about the guys that fudge on everything. I am talking about 95% of the racers out there that will stay within reasonable limits. The extra battery capacity room for them is great. If My pack did not finish charging am I in trouble? Also with extra capacitiy your voltage change over the lenght of the race is less. All batteries taper off. If you have enough capacity then the taper is less over the length of the race. Oh yea if I get an adjustable voltage cutoff I have extra mah that you do not. Yea we can always find fudging.


Personally you should be able to run almost any hard cased lipo that keeps your car within weight. 


You really think the guy that is spending bucks on the latest battery will not take the money and put it into something else? We know the type.


----------



## Craps

swtour said:


> Craps..
> 
> And Nic has hit the wall with those same cars a few times at our INSANE SPEED RUNS at the Velodrome...


But did he hit those walls at the Velodrome running 160++ mph???

The li-pos are tougher than people think they are. Internet Gossip and anti-li-po propaganda from those that don't want to lose sales of nickel batteries or the advantage of getting to cull through a huge gross of nickel cells to get the best ones for themselves or lose the sells of all those dischargers, zappers, high end expensive chargers, etc., etc...

It's real funny the arguements against brushless being allowed to race stop when certain companies finnally jumped on the bad wagon and started selling brushless too!!! Li-pos will be the same way and will end battery wars along with becoming more appealling to the masses who are tired of the hassles that go along with nitro, but want long runtimes with little maintence.


----------



## swtour

Craps,

NO, but he has at well over 80 mph (He has to turn at the VELO)

I agree on a lot of the negative hype on the lipos...and I've had to do a lot of reading myself to see past a lot of the smoke... but, like I've said in the past....better to proceed with caution...and stil move forward, then to jump too quick and go way off course.

I read something today...that was actually something I suggested years ago w/ 6 cell and a resistor to slow cars down...instead of switching to 4 cell.

It would/could be a pain...but if you were to use a 'handout' resistor (like a nascar restrictor plate) you could run the LIPOS with the exact same motor combos we use now w/ 4 cell...but you'd have to have quality resistors I'm sure or the +/- factor might make a difference. Something like that would be cheaper than having 2 dozen different motor choices...

But, I actually like the director some of the brushless motors are going w/ some slower motors being developed.


----------



## pmsimkins

swtour said:


> Craps,
> 
> NO, but he has at well over 80 mph (He has to turn at the VELO)
> 
> I agree on a lot of the negative hype on the lipos...and I've had to do a lot of reading myself to see past a lot of the smoke... but, like I've said in the past....better to proceed with caution...and stil move forward, then to jump too quick and go way off course.
> 
> I read something today...that was actually something I suggested years ago w/ 6 cell and a resistor to slow cars down...instead of switching to 4 cell.
> 
> It would/could be a pain...but if you were to use a 'handout' resistor (like a nascar restrictor plate) you could run the LIPOS with the exact same motor combos we use now w/ 4 cell...but you'd have to have quality resistors I'm sure or the +/- factor might make a difference. Something like that would be cheaper than having 2 dozen different motor choices...
> 
> But, I actually like the director some of the brushless motors are going w/ some slower motors being developed.


Resistors that can handle the type of current draw we have are large, expensive and the tolerance would be a huge factor.


----------



## swtour

...that's what I was afraid of...which I think is why we scraped it when we discussed it 7-8 years ago.


----------



## Craps

It looks like ROAR has lifted the Li-po ban by adding a new class at the Off-Road Electric Nationals this year that also includes any brushless system and any 7.4 volt Li-po battery in a 2wd 1/10th scale stadium truck with a 20 minute main!!!

Looks like ROAR copied the rules for our Pro Truck Class we race here in the Carolinas!

Thank you ROAR!


----------



## BIGKAHUNA

Well Here You Go! Read This.. Those Who Think Li-po Is No Good.

Freddies Hobbies In Revanna, Ohio Has A 430 Foot Run Line Black Top Track.

I Have A 4300 Brushless And A 3200 Orion Li-po In A Nastruck L4 Pan Car.

I Charged It At Home And I Ran The Truck For 1 Hour. I Did Not Have A Cut Off On The Battery So I Stopped At 1 Hour. I Took Home Put On Charger, 7.6 Volts Still In The Battery.

They Need To Make A Motor That Will Be Slow Like A 27 Turn Something Like 20.5 Maybe And Run Li-po 7.4 Orions, Becasue They Are Incased. And A Ice Charger. That Will Make It Safe For All.

I Have A 1/4 Scale And I Am Putting In A Orion Li-po And A Reducer For The Servo System To Maintain 6 Volts Constant. It Should Run For A Month Or Longer Before Charging.

I Am Telling You Once You Go To Li-po You Will Never Want To See A Ni-mh Battery Again. It Is So Much Cheaper And A Whole Lot Better. 

Battery And A Charger A Car And A Controller And Some Tire Goop. Can Walk In With One Box With Everything In It You Need Race All Day And Have Fun And Never Look At A Battery.

Now That Is Fun.

I Watch 6 Other Guys Charge Batteris And They Ran 2 Times For 10 Mins. And They Charged Batteries For 5 Hours. I Walked Around Ran My Car And Ran It Some More Walked And Asked Them If They Want To Race Yet? No Still Charging. Wow. I Had The Biggest Smile. I Will Convince Them Sooner Or Lator.

The Racers Have To Tell The Tracks Thats What They Want.... 

The Money Makers Will Not Controll The Money Spenders. Thats Racers Verses Battery Makers Or Matchers. 1000.00 For One Battery Matcher And Most Have 4 Or 5 Of Them. Wow Are They Making Money On You. Not Me.. I Quit The Ni-mh Money Pit Racing. 

Selling My Ni-mh And Getting More 1/4 Scale And Li-po Dirt Cars. Until They Get Smart And Let Li-po Indoors And Get More Racers.

I Can Not Believe That Business Owners Would Turn Down Racers That Could Afford To Race With Li-po And You Can Educate Them Because There Are New. I Have 5 To 6 Guys That Would Love To Race Say 3000.00 And They Say See Yea. Might Be Able To Squeeze Out 750.00 Out Of Them.

Let Me Here Why Li-po Is Bad Men. 

You Have To Do Alot Of Talking To Make Li-po Bad. I Did The Experiment They Last They Are More Powerful And You Do Not Have To Baby Sit Them. Charge Them Put On Shelf Come Back In The Fall Put It In And Go Racing.

I Lovem.


----------



## McLin

Not much you can add to that!

But it’s like I posted on my site…..what it will take to get this going is “doing it”! If we wait for your buddies to start it, we will be waiting next year this time.

My feelings are, let’s quit all the nay saying and cheap shots, the things are safe if you use the right equipment, no one will stop the idiot that abuses everything (NiMH or LiPo) and let’s go LiPo racing.


----------



## swtour

Scot Petitclerc ran his 3.5 MOD B/L car at the Velodrome w/ hs 4800 LIPO pack in a single test run. This was his one and only run w/ no gear test. He had two spins during the run and pulled it off when it started to dump. (NOTE: 4 cell B/L mod ran a quick lap today of 8.40 w/ a MAMBA MAX system, but dumped in 3+ minutes of a 5 minute race)

Here's Scott's lap times.
908
874
1180
930
873
876
884
884
885
884
880
893
877
881
888
873
891
888
879
903
880
881
1984
885
940
930
875
890
889
1865
901
876
881
882
892
874
889
875
871
884
889
932
875
876
883
891
______
432.21

That's 432.21 Seconds or 7.203 minutes...and 46 laps. Taking the DUMPED lap, and the two spin laps away the average lap times were 8.88 seconds. This track rolls out between 840 - 860 ft. depending on who rolls it.

It was geared around a 120/17 and purposely ran fairly conservative.

The battery pulled close to 4500 mah and took a full 6000 seconds to recharge. (That's what..and HOUR and 40 minutes?)


----------



## Stratus54

MrBlack from Orion just posted on RCTech that the Orion 4800's are now ok to charge at 2C or around 10 amps... that should cut down the charge time


----------



## swtour

that will surely help...6000 seconds...wow.

(We will only be using the 3200 cells most likely, except in our OPEN MOD class)


----------



## BullFrog

So what's the charge time on the 3200 pack and the 4800 pack from orion?Will the 3200 in brushless stock on-road make a 6 minute qualifier and a few hot laps?


----------



## swtour

Bullfrog,

I don't have the charge time for the 3200's, I forgot to write it down...I do remember in our 5 minute 4300 class that the charge took roughly 2650 mah's, after the first run...and that driver had a receiver pack and NO fan on the ESC.

His second run he removed the receiver pack, and put the fan back on..and it took closer to 2900 mah's. Batteries were ready to run by the next round of qualifying, and we only had a 8 heat race day.

With a STOCK motor, on-road I'd bet you could run 2 minutes worth of HOTLAPS - a 6 minute HEAT - and another 2 minutes + run after the end of the race...w/o losing more than .2 per lap. (This is with the 3200 - the 4800 I'd bet running stock you could run over 15 full minutes, maybe even 20 w/o losing .2 seconds per lap.)


----------



## McLin

When I did the 3200 LiPo/4300 Brushless testing it took from 40 to 45 min to re-charge the battery. Just about the same as a 4200 NiMH. With the 17.5 it averaged 37 min. This was with 4 minute runs.


----------



## BIGKAHUNA

Need Arcor To Make The Class. Then Li-po Will Move On And Take Over Ni-mh Batteries For Ever.

And 7 Min Run Time With A 3.5 Brushless Is Like A Hour Or More With A 13.5

I Just Set My 1/4 Scale Up With A Lipo It Will Run All Year Before I Have To Charge It Again.


----------



## BullFrog

Well I run a 13.5 in road course. We race 6 minute qualifiers and mains.I talked with Rick Hohwart and he said the 3200 charge at 2 amps. I forgot what he said the 4800 charge at.He suggested the Orion charger and that's what I'd get.That is unless Competition Electronics makes a charger soon. I guess I 'll have to get rid of the Turbo 35BL soon.
Since it will be sometime next month probably- I'd still like to know how long it takes to charge either pack and at what amps?


----------



## brian0525

3.2 FOR THE 3200 AND 4.8 FOR THE 4800!

Orion states it is safe to charge at 6 on the 3200 and 10 on the 4800.

3200 at 3.2 after a 13.5 6 min run should be about 50-60 min.


----------



## BullFrog

I just read about the orion charger- it only goes up to 5 amps.So what other choices for a charger do I have? Do I have to cycle these? What do you discharge them to ( between races) and what amps to discharge them?Do you have to wait until they are cool before re-charging.How long at 5 amps does it take for a 3200 lipo take(about the same as the old 3300's?).


----------



## BIGKAHUNA

here is the scoop on li-po charging.

you only need 3.2 for the 3200.

now there are the die hards that still have the ni-mh mentality. they want to charge tham all the time. well if they would have something to check there batter or just look at the voltage thye would see that the voltage only drops .1 of a volt. it has 135 amp thAt is double ni-mh batteries. so you brushless runs with voltage. 13.5 is 1350 rpm per volt. i run my 4700 brushless all day and never charge it. 3 heats and a main. for the main i may put on charger for what ever time i have and that usually only takes 40 to 50 min max. to charge. i just got more batteries.

and guess what. you can charge li-po 10000 times. thats 9950 times more than ni-mh

i use a ice charger. maybe they are better than the ones other people are using. but 1 hour will take a 3200 that i ran for over an hour to charge back up.

read this 4 times......
you never discharge a li-po. you can charge today and put it in your car a month from now and it is still charged to the max. if you want to be a die hard get 4 batteries and never charge at the track and have full batteries for all 4 runs. walk in with a car, controller, and 4 batteries. (((( no chargers, no discharger, no solding iron, no more watching batteries all day long, never get a dumped battery. never throw a cell away like ni-mh.. )))) how simple is that.

every one thinks like they still run ni-mh. WAKEUP. you do not have to do that any more. 

li-po will put ni-mh out to pasture very soon.

li-po is what they are using in the new hybrid cars. if they will take that, what do you think a 2.5# car will do. also the new tech for li-po will be 10 min to full charge for autos. small batteries will be right behind them.

they have new componuds out not so li-po does not burn or explode. when that happens i wonder what they will say is bad about li-po???????

li-po man


----------



## BIGKAHUNA

Competition Electronics said they will be making an update for there chargers.

right now they are making there new ni-mh battery matcher to charge you alot of money for cells that will die the first time you run them.

i have all the equipment to check batteries including a matcher.

believe me if you do not have the equipment to see each battery. then you are running a bad pack.

the pros run there batteries for one weekend and then sell them. why would they do that. it is because most the time there will be most of the batteries are not up to performance any more. the internal resistance will run high and that meens a fast discharge.

ni-mh is out for me. running gas and li-po now.


----------



## McLin

Bullfrog, all that is basically true, and I will say it again in case you didn’t read it four times LOL …..YOU NEVER DISCHARGE A LIPO ON A DISCHARGE MACHINE! The reason for that is if you try to completely discharge a pack you WILL ruin it and it will not charge again….. EVER!

When we all start to run LiPo’s, we really will have to re-learn most of what we know about batteries. These are different animals all together but man are they great! I haven’t tried running the same pack all day but I did measure the voltage after each run and it only fell off .75 of a volt after a four minute run with a 4300 brushless motor.

As for charging, the above posts were right again. You charge a 3200 pack at 3.2 amps and a 4800 pack at 4.8 amps. Most of the better chargers have a program set up in them to be sure they are being charged at the correct amperage for the pack you are using. LiPo’s use a slight amount of amperage and a steady supply of voltage to charge correctly but they charge at about the same time (maybe a little less) as the NiMH packs do.

Hope this helps.

OH one other thing, you store the packs between races with about 3/4 full charge.


----------



## BullFrog

Thank your for the great advise.


----------



## Manning

I gotta chime in here......... I've used lipos in RC airplanes for several years now. 

Lipos don't last forever as everybody selling them wants you to think. Some brands last longer than others, but expect to replace them at least yearly or more often if you want to be competitive. One brand of lipo I've used are awesome for about 10 cycles and then fall off a ton after that. Another brand didn't start out as powerful, but the performance change is barely perceptible over time. But it still falls off. Lap times would certainly go up. 

So don't be so gullible as to believe the marketing guys hype about "lasts for umpty-gazillion cycles with no performance change". Total BS. 

Lipo's are great, but not _that_ great.


----------



## McLin

Manning, I haven't used them long enough to find out for myself but I have a tendency to believe you. I think they are "much" better than what we have now and I think they will cut down a lot on cost but "thousands" of runs without losing some punch is a bit much to swallow.

However, If I have to replace one pack each year........I'm still a happy camper!


----------



## gezer2u

This charger will charge up to 10 amps. I have used their other charger and it works great. Also, it is a balance charger at no extra cost. 

Manning- On another site I read that only top tier lipo companies have the quility checks to assure that the packs they produce will stand up to the rigors that we put them through. Many Packs are made in China and are substandard. Kokam is a top tier company, maybe the packs you were speaking of were not. 

I agree with McLin, One pack a year would be nice!


----------



## Manning

I have only used two different brands of Lipo's, neither are cheapo's. I am very leery of buying the cheapest of anything. You always get what you pay for. 

Everybody knows the brand of battery that had the power of thunder (  ) for 10 cycles then falls off quickly (4 out of 5 packs fell off significantly, the one is still very good). The other is quite well known as high quality brand in the RC airplane world. I would buy from either vendor again. 

I have not used the Orion/Kokam car batteries. Someday. 

Please understand I am a big supporter of Lipo's, but don't want people to have unrealistic expectations that Lipo's are somehow perfect.


----------



## swtour

Manning,

Thank you for your insight...I hope EVERYBODY will understand....LIPO and BRUSHLESS is NOT going to be the second coming...

Things will change, things will improve, things will need to be replaced...and so on...

otherwise companies would have nothing to sell...so why would they bother in the first place? 

Hopefully we can keep a tight enough set of rules to keep some of the oddball stuff out...and have some control over the competition.


----------



## Craps

Been racing with li-pos/brushless now for 3+ years in 20 minute mains and we have guys racing with us with batteries over 2 years old now. They only have 1 battery and 1 charger with the battery never coming out of the truck.

The 8000 mah batteries are great!


----------



## Ralf

Craps said:


> Been racing with li-pos/brushless now for 3+ years in 20 minute mains and we have guys racing with us with batteries over 2 years old now. They only have 1 battery and 1 charger with the battery never coming out of the truck.
> 
> The 8000 mah batteries are great!


 What brand batteries are you guys running in Offroad? I guess they are NOT hard case LIPOs, glad to hear you are having such success with the LIPOs, hope we can get the Oval people ON board fairly quickly as I am tired of buying new Nihm packs every two three months. Thanks for the info. Ralf


----------



## Craps

Ralf said:


> What brand batteries are you guys running in Offroad? I guess they are NOT hard case LIPOs, glad to hear you are having such success with the LIPOs, hope we can get the Oval people ON board fairly quickly as I am tired of buying new Nihm packs every two three months. Thanks for the info. Ralf


Thunder Power TP8000-2S4P and the MaxAmps 8000-2S2P

No hard case needed and is over kill to blow off this unsafe hype scaring everybody about li-pos!!!!

The reasons they blow the hard case has nothing to do with the idiot using the wrong charger or charging after it has been over discharged. The hard case is hype!


----------



## BullFrog

The brushless right now is the second coming. I've gotten rid of all most all of my brushed motors stuff.Just have a few thngs left.Maintenance on the motor compaired to brushed- you can have the brushed.Batteries don't know yet but I like what I been hearing about.Heck I'm running the orginal 4200's I got over a year ago with my 13.5 proto type motor and it's running strong.Now in afew months I'll go lipo.Boy how R/C cars have changed in my time racing them (1980- to now). Electric is getting even better.


----------



## Robertw321

Craps said:


> No hard case needed. The hard case is hype!


I wouldn't discount the hard case. An uncased Lipo buried in the womb of your off-road truck might be OK. A Lipo hanging out in the breeze on the left side of my oval car............I don't know!


----------



## gezer2u

Yeah, off road is a little different then oval and sedan racing. The hard case is just insurance. What you are paying extra for with the Orion/ peak packs is the case and the name brand cells. 

Manning- Thanks for the input. I think SWT said it well.


----------



## Craps

If it make you guys feel better go to the Home Depot or Lowe's and buy a piece of plastic ceiling grid wall track that can be cut and configured to enclose the battery to save alot of money than buying those Peak/Orion packs with the big name brand you are paying for.


----------



## McLin

I think that some of you may be missing the point. The Peak/Orion cells are not just a "big brand name" but because they "are" they deal with a better battery company.. Kokam. The hard case is a plus for sure but it's the whole package of a hard case and higher quality cells that make them worth the money.

The other thing pertains to Oval racing and that is the Orion Carbon packs will be the only legal battery you can run. As time goes on, things may change but right now that will be the ball game for Oval.


----------



## BullFrog

The FSEARA is thinking about going to the lipos for next year. The one requirement is they have to come with the hard case.So presently the only legal stuff around is the peak/orion and the soon to be released Schumaker 5000's.But it's still early and who knows what will be out by the 2008 racing season.By the way that's the on-road electric series in Florida.


----------



## idbdoug

Hello, I hope you don't mind the private message. I just purchased used the same Lipo charger that you own. I also purchased a connector from FMA Direct to charge and balance the Team Orion and Peak Racing style Lipo's. My main question is do you use this charger with a different Lipo battery brand, if so how do you go about charging and balancing them.

Thanks for any further information


----------



## idbdoug

Bad post above. I just purchased used a Scorpion 2S Lipo charger. I also purchased a connector from FMA Direct to charge and balance the Team Orion and Peak Racing style Lipo's. My main question is can you use this charger with a different Lipo battery brand, if so how do you go about charging and balancing them. Any further assistance will be greatly appreciated since I am new to Lipo's.

Thanks
Doug Bryson


----------



## gezer2u

Doug, post the brand of battery are trying to charge. It might help us answer your question.


----------



## idbdoug

How about MaxAmps Lipo batteries? Just checking to see if I can charge different brands. Also, do you know if the 2s can use the adapters for the 6s. I will check with FMA direct about the adapters on Tuesday,

Once again thanks for any further information
Doug


----------



## gezer2u

Man, I've been thinking about this for a few days and I'm not sure what adapters they make for the Scorpion. Once you get an answer, post it so we will know.


----------



## Al Spina Fan

look here...

http://press.teamorion.com/press/cliff/lipo/balancingInstr.jpg


----------



## BIGKAHUNA

All You Need Is Plexaglass And Cut And Glue Together. Screw The Top On And You Have A Better Enclosure Than The Orion. My Orion Case Broke Allready. They Need To Make Them Out Of Abs Plastic It Is A Much Better Material. I Am Thinking Of Making An Aftermarket Box For Li-po.

Li-po Will Be The Only Battery Soon As Every One Opens Eyes.


----------



## swtour

The case on the 3200 is NOT indestrucible...it's just a protection device, AND something we can use to help CONTROL which batteries are being used.

I URGE Everyone using these batteries to securely fasten them in your car...PROTECT THEM, and MAKE Sure that the banana plugs can NOT come in contact with the rear cross brace on OVAL cars...so they don't short out.


----------



## Ralf

I thik some of the guys, like Craps, that race offroad where the batteries are more protested and the cars not as fast don't realize hat we sometimes put the batteries through in Oval racing, plus as usual, a lot of RC guys just dont like being told what they can or can't do. IMO Ralf


----------



## DLS II

Hi, I'm currently configuring a TC for racing.(vintage YR-F2) I'm going to set it up with a Novak XBR 10.5 and a M.E.C. SPT A123 2s2p pack. (6.6 volts) Is ROAR going to legalize A123 packs? If not, Why? They are ( according to everything I've read) safer than reguler lipos. Thanks, Don


----------



## BIGKAHUNA

the old guys will learn some day that li-po is the new game.

they will make racing rc cars fun, will let the begginer get into rc racing and not spend a s--t load of money on inferior batteries and multiple battery charges and dischargers and watch them like a baby. ((( alot less money and time for li-po )))

next comment.


----------



## kevinm

The A123 batteries seem to have several durability & safety advantages, but have a significantly lower voltage than the other LiPo batteries out there (3.3V/cell vs. 3.7V/cell). I'm not even sure if most of the chargers out there can be set properly for this, so you might be locked in to their charger. At 6.6V for a 2-cell pack, it may seem slow compared to NiMhs. I don't think I've seen anybody post their results here from using one of these.


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## DLS II

Actually for a charger I just added a Lipodapter to my AFI 110 Deluxe- works fine. A guy by the name of Batfish on another forum uses them in off road and gears up another 2 teeth(pinion) to compensate for the lower voltage.( he runs brushless). A123 Racing has a link to that forum. Don


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## BIGKAHUNA

At 6.6V for a 2-cell pack, it may seem slow compared to NiMhs. 
what is this?????

li-po has double the amperage of ni-mh, that meens more voltage longer....read up on electric,,, ni-mh is call the dinosour now.

all the new battery opperated tools and phones, ipods, lap tops and on and on are using li-po more and more.

the time they stay charged is triple or more of ni-mh. ni-mh will die in no time compared to li-po. ni -mh will have bad cells in no time, making the pack run short and not have a long run time and lower voltage.

with the new li-po cut offs out there they will be the battery.

novak has lo-po cut offs built into there esc's now.

most off roaders are running li-po. the indoor oval guys will take for ever to go to li-po. they have 1000.00's of dollars into chargers, dischargers are batteries. plus the big companies will try to keep ni-mh around to keep there sales going.

all the new ( hybrid cars ) run. guess what kind of battery. ( li-po )

why would you even think of ni-mh for anything any more.

it is like saying my horse is faster than your car, and we know who won that one.

quit stepping on road apples and get a li-po. :thumbsup:


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## Craps

The on road side of electric racing is what has been keeping ROAR back from approving the li-po batteries for Electric Racing. Notice that li-pos are approved for R/X and T/X packs in gas racing that is the worse guys around to let handle batteries and if it is ok for the guys with the least battery knowledge to use them why is it so hard to keep them from the guys who care about batteries when they are alot superior to the nickel battery technology!!!!

With ROAR allowing them in the upcoming ROAR Off-Road Electric Nationals as a promotional class is a huge step in the RC world for them to be accepted nationwide and is the future for electric racing to growing again!


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## Ralf

I wonder how much their decision was influenced by ARCOR starting a LIPO/Brushless class this fall in Oval racing? Ralf


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## Craps

Ralf said:


> I wonder how much their decision was influenced by ARCOR starting a LIPO/Brushless class this fall in Oval racing? Ralf


Is ARCOR the racetrack at Albuquerque, New Mexico you are talking about?

Albuquerque
Radio
Controlled
Off-road
Raceway

ARCOR is the name of the track where the ROAR Off-Road Electric Nationals is at in NM!!!

ROAR did almost copy the rules and race length to exactly what we have been racing here in the Carolinas for about 3 years now in the Carolinas point championship series and now the ECNS point series which is racing at the Farm II raceway where the ROAR off-road Gas Truck Nationals are this year and the IFMAR Worlds 1/8th Scale Buggy Championship is at next year.

I would say all the talk of li-pos on the net has got they're attention big time to help build back up and bring back Electric Racing with longer racing with li-pos and less maintence with brushless systems.


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## Ralf

You are kidding, right? ARCOR = Association of Radio Controled Auto Racing, they have their own thread on here and have been working with NOVAK on a motor to run with LIPOs....a class with a new motor and 2-cell LIPO that will give stock motor speeds and use a COT body. Can't believe you haven't read any of the threads that they have been discussing this in. Ralf


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## charger01

Hey ralf, go easy on the guy will ya?! At least he does not sign his name after every post! Dude, we can tell it's you, okay?! :wave:


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## Ralf

Sorry, didn't know I was being "hard" on anybody, was just explaining which ARCOR I was talking about, trying to give him some information.


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## Craps

Ralf said:


> You are kidding, right? ARCOR = Association of Radio Controled Auto Racing, they have their own thread on here and have been working with NOVAK on a motor to run with LIPOs....a class with a new motor and 2-cell LIPO that will give stock motor speeds and use a COT body. Can't believe you haven't read any of the threads that they have been discussing this in. Ralf


Sorry, but I am an off-road racer that likes jumps and bumps!!!!

ARCOR is the name of the track where the off-road electric nats are going to be at this month too!!! How about that!


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## kevinm

BIGKAHUNA said:


> At 6.6V for a 2-cell pack, it may seem slow compared to NiMhs.
> what is this????? ...


Calm down, dude. I was NOT defending NiMhs at all. (In fact I've already got some LiPos. I'm tired of rematching NiMhs too.) I was simply pointing out that the lower voltage of the A123 cells (compared to NiMh *and* standard LiPoly) might be slower. In modified, you could probably compensate with more gear or a faster motor, but I doubt if that would help in any limited motor (i.e. stock or 19T) class. And the A123 batteries are a special type of Lithium Ion batteries, NOT LiPoly.


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## Ralf

Craps said:


> Sorry, but I am an off-road racer that likes jumps and bumps!!!!
> 
> ARCOR is the name of the track where the off-road electric nats are going to be at this month too!!! How about that!


 Sorry here too, I just assumed that everyone in NC (NASCAR country) was an Oval nut...I started out in the 70's in offroad but the only track in the area (St. Louis back then) closed just after I got an aluminum tub RC-10. I had a resistor speed control as the esc's were not even on the market then. Converted it to dirt oval and then got away from the hobby for a couple of decades, I am an old fart of 60. Just like going left now. Where do you race ? Do you run any dirt Oval or just off road?


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## Flipper13

Ralf are you comming to paved nats at easly?


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## Ralf

My biggest problem with racing is the time/distance it takes to travel, not to mention the price of gas. I need track time badly as I have been away from racing a long time, I am about half way between Easley and Lail in TN and it is about a 2 1/2 hour drive to each track. Not sure when you all finish racing but I guess I would be leaving early mornings and not getting back home til midnight or later. I wish there were some guys racing at C&W that ran brushless so I could at least get back up to speed before driving down but the last few times I dropped by there to watch all I saw were nitro cars. I have a comitment this weekend but am thinking of making a day of it the 16th. Is there a regular group that runs 13.5?


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## Flipper13

Ralf drive for me is about 2 1/2 to 3 hr depending on traffic and wheither i am pulling a trailor or not. usualy racing is over about 6 to 7 depending on car count. will be there 16th also. live 1 hr east of charlotte. we are usualy home by 10 t0 11 at night. i am old fart to same age, we can blame mistake on age ha ha ha! 13.5 class is growing, they been running with stock i think? i run spec truck!


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## Craps

Ralf said:


> My biggest problem with racing is the time/distance it takes to travel, not to mention the price of gas. I need track time badly as I have been away from racing a long time, I am about half way between Easley and Lail in TN and it is about a 2 1/2 hour drive to each track. Not sure when you all finish racing but I guess I would be leaving early mornings and not getting back home til midnight or later. I wish there were some guys racing at C&W that ran brushless so I could at least get back up to speed before driving down but the last few times I dropped by there to watch all I saw were nitro cars. I have a comitment this weekend but am thinking of making a day of it the 16th. Is there a regular group that runs 13.5?


We are racing this weekend at The Farm at NitroFest with the Pro Trucks that 1/10th scale stadium trucks with any motor and any battery for a 20 minute main. The Farm is home to last years ROAR 1/8th scale buggy nats, this years ROAR Gas Truck Nats and next years IFMAR Worlds 1/8th scale championship....we have a very good choice of off-road race tracks with in 100 miles of Charlotte. There is at least 6 or 7 racing every weekend!!!!

Come join us!


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## Ralf

Flipper13 said:


> Ralf drive for me is about 2 1/2 to 3 hr depending on traffic and wheither i am pulling a trailor or not. usualy racing is over about 6 to 7 depending on car count. will be there 16th also. live 1 hr east of charlotte. we are usualy home by 10 t0 11 at night. i am old fart to same age, we can blame mistake on age ha ha ha! 13.5 class is growing, they been running with stock i think? i run spec truck!


 What time does signup end? and what time do the heats usually start? Thanks


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## charger01

ralph, sorry about the name thing, it was just a joke! I have read many of your posts and find them to be very useful. once again, sorry!


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## Flipper13

Ralf sign up starts about 10 stops at about 12-driver meeting at 12:30 race at 1 pm


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## DK47

Ralf,how do you go to Easley? It's only 88 miles from my house here in Waynesville,and i'm 15 miles from the 37 exit on 40.It should only be about 70 miles for you,unless you live way up on Pisgah.


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## Ralf

Out 151 to Davis Creek, Pisgah Mountain is in my backyard. Have Easley programmed into my Garmin and it says about 2 1/2 hours drive time. It is usually pretty close to the actual drive time.


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## DK47

LOL,must take you a while to get to the Cracker Barrel down there in Enka!


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## SuperReverb

I just found a super cheap deal on the Orion Carbon edition at russellrc.com so i picked one up. I'm running a t-4 with a 5.5(sintered rotor and everything) with an 86 spur, what should i gear it at going to a Lipo? Should there be any difference in gearing compared to a 4200 batt.? Maybe gear it different because of longer run times to keep the motor cool?


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## Hick

In my battery testing, I found a recurring pattern. For every 10th of a volt lost (used up) your motor looses 500 (brushed motors) rpm. So ... if your Nimih is putting out 7.2 volts, your Lipo will put out 7.4 volts. 

You have 1000 extra rpm to deal with at the starting line.

I guess this would be true with a brushless.

The battery power curve for both batteries are similiar, but a LiPo is approximately +/- 2ths higher than a NiMih. After 5 minutes the Nimihs start falling off pretty quickly, while the LiPo remains about the same.

With my MaxAmp 6000 mah batteries, I can run 2 - 4 minute heats and a 5 minute Main on one charge. Lap times for the 2nd heat and main are equivilant as the 1st heat!


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## Hick

Good for ARCOR. With ROAR approving brushless motors and ARCOR leading the LiPo Charge, we will all be running legally, sooner than we expected!


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