# Sticky  Fray car tuning



## afxgns

Hello all,
My name is Tim Leppert, Iv'e been racing fray style cars for seven years. and been to every fray since 2001.
I thought I would try to get you going on building a fray car from the ground up.
If you have a few tools, and a decent supply of parts, you should be able to build a pretty good fray car.

First things first:
Tools, 
You will need a fast way to remove gears. The R.T. gear removal tool is the answer
The R.T. gear press is also a required item. No better gear press made. Don't even bother with any others.
Wheel removal tool.
Good wheel press, Wizard makes a good one, and at a decent price.
Poising tool, You can make your own, just go to H.O. world for the article.
Tech block. Yes you will NEED this, (not just for tech)
Cheap dial calipers, A decent set can found at Harbor freight.
Other stuff after I think about it......

First up, Chassis choice.
You want to find a chassis that is flat on all four corners.
You will need:
Your tech block, two drill blank axles, uncut (about 2" long) and ALL your chassis (stripped of all removable parts)

Simply place the axles thru the rear and front axle holes and place on the tech block so that the ends of the axles are resting on the rails.
press on the corners of the chassis, and find the ones that are touching on all four corners.set these aside(they are very rare)
then begin to rate them based on how far out they are. place them in a line in order of straightness.

Next episode: Gear plates.


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## Dragula

I supply specific sought after parts that the FRAY guys need.I am probably the only dealer that will sell the hard to get gearplates,arms and such.Sorry to hijack your thread,just wanted to also help out the newbies and soon to be tuners.
DRAGjet
859-356-1566


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## afxgns

*Gear plates and matching.*

In this episode we'll cover two things, Choosing a gearplate and matching it to one of your chassis.

Gearplates:
I will admit to being lazy when it comes to gearplates. If I find one that fits a chassis well, I use it. I don't care if it's a lettered plate or not.
I never try to match a certain plate and chassis by number or letter. I just check the fits that are important to me.

What I look for is:
square topped Idler posts.
rear hole is not too big.
no cuts or grind marks that deam it illegal for the fray.

To prepare for the fitting process, you will need to dissassemble your plates. If you have any plates that read "pattent applied for", keep these gears seperate from the others, they are very early, and usually have better machined geartrains.
As an aside, I do not recommend removing the nine tooth from the shaft, if it's tight, leave it on!

When you have your pile of gearplates, it's time to start checking fits. This is easy, when you get set up.
You will need:
Your tech block,
The 2" long axles you had before
a gearclamp band, (not a tight one!)

Now take you best chassis, grab a plate and assemble it with the band. Install the drill blanks in both the main bearing holes and the cluster gear hole. They will be sticking out the top and the bottom.
Now turn the chassis so that the drill blanks are horizontal. and place it on your tech block the same way we did the axle holes.
They will not touch the same way that the axles holes did. but we are looking for the closest to touching all four as we can get.

Remember that feel and repeat with all the plates you have. When you find the top three or four plates, save them as your top matches and we'll move on to choosing the arm....
in the next installment.

Thanks
Tim Leppert


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## afxgns

*Arms*

Choosing the right armature

This is were it gets interesting. 
To find your best armature, we have to define "best". My definition is smooth, and fast in the midrange. Lots of folks look for that punchy, rip your throat out armature and all they get is dirty tires. The fact is that you need to difine your driving style and choose arms accordingly.
The other thing to remember is that with the tools available now, you can switch arms faster than rear tires. So if you have a doubt,pull it out. Try another one and see.

OK here goes,
you will need:
1 set of blue and yellow magnets.
1 set of old crappy pickup shoes.(try M/T shoes for this, they don't need springs)
1 set of decent brushes, cleaned and polished.
a power supply at your bench.

Now the trick here is that you have a number of chassis, and a number of plates, now your'e throwing in more stuff like arms.
Try doing one thing at a time and start with the chassis and plate combo you think is your best. 
Assemble the shoes and the magnets, then slip in the brushes, and pop in the arm.
Spool 'er up and listen, remember that tone!
Then turn the chassis the other way and run it backwards. it should run faster forwards than backwards. If not, no worries, we can fix that later.
Next,try switching plates. (remember the plate you just tried, you will probably end up with that one) You will hear a difference.When you figure out the the original plate is the best, mark the chassis with the plate # and the plate with the chassis #. 
Next thing is to try all those arms and find the one that feels and sounds the best. Set that combo aside.
Now you can grab another chassis and start all over and find the next best combo. 

Next installment:
brushes and brush tensioners.
:woohoo:


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## wheelszk

.. 

Next installment:
brushes and brush tensioners.
:woohoo:[/QUOTE]

WHEN? :thumbsup:


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## ubetrbqwik

Great step by step. Thanks! :dude:


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## afxgns

Next installment is in the works guys!
You will need:
your chassis, arms, brushes, and an AM radio!

Really

:wave:


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## Scafremon

Great thread Tim! :thumbsup: 

Based on your experience with these cars and the processes you describe, I bet this is second nature to you now, but if you had a video camera and taped some of these steps, I know a newbie such as me would watch it!


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## lbishov

Waiting with baited breath!!!


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## Bill Hall

lol- I use the radio too! Cant wait for the next exciting episode.


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## Xence

You know... I'm not trying to be funny here but would someone PLEASE explain what the heck a fray car is? No really, I'm not kidding. I've heard alot about these but what's so great about this car that I can't get with my SG+ or like a wizzard or something?

What does it look like? Is this based on something else? Does it cost an arm and a leg to make? I paid $40 or something like that for a wizzard awhile ago and I thought that was a bit high so any insight here would be helpful.

Thanks,
Xence


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## martybauer31

A fray car is a T-jet with an independent front end at 1 5/16" in width, typically a drill blank of 1 5/16" is used for a rear axle and silicone over sponge tires are used. The arm can be trued and balanced and each pole must not ohm lower than 16.0 on average. Resin bodies are used that have been lightened and lowered, also the newest thing is to use CNC'd gears as they are perfectly centered and straight and enables you to not have to go through dozens of stock gears to find the perfect fit. I'm sure more will add but that is the basics of it.

If $40 is a lot to you, don't bother with this car type, or much else that goes beyond stock for that matter.

The great thing about these cars is that they are not blindingly fast, but they are a heck of a lot of fun to drive.


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## Xence

I'm not against spending more than $40 but I would need a place to race this little devil. As it is now I can't say that I know a place here in ct. that races. I know there was a group of guys out here somewhere but I know they were at least an hour away. Normally I wouldn't mind this but I drive an hour each way to work every day. I really would rather not drive even more than I already do. I'm not deadset against it I would just rather not.


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## mking

*hey glenn*

check out this website, and look at the section where the bodies are sold. it shows lots of examples of fray cars. 

http://www.moonstonebodies.com/modern_car_bodies.html

also check out the fray (the race)

http://howorld.fsmra.com/archives/fray/fray/pgfrayst.html

yes, you could spend less and go faster, but for me fray cars are suich a kick because they are really tweaked for maximum performance. a big block chevy or ford in stock trim will blow away a tricked out VW bug, but tricked out VWs are still cool. at least ot me 

if you have any experience with stock tjets, its frankly amazing how fast a really well built fray car is compared to stock tjets


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## twolff

They're open wheel sedans 

Fast, yeah, but too silly looking for my tastes. Should either get the wheels back under the body or widen the bodies to cover them.

The tuning tips apply very well to the T-Jet chassis in general and are worth trying for sure.


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## AfxToo

Most of the TJet races I've been to also run a round of stock TJet races, so the stock form bodies and chassis are still represented. The Fray/VHORS style cars really grow on you once you realize just how much fun and fast they really are. I see them as really tricked out TJet Race Cars that would probably be something between a super stock and a modified in 1:1 racing. Since they are Real Race Cars the aesthetic concerns are allowed to take a backseat to the performance ones. I'm totally cool with their looks and even more so when racers trick them out with nice paint and decals.


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## Xence

I agree with twolff that they are really sorta odd looking. Now having said this I am NOT against doing this sort of thing even if the car costs me $100. I don't want to spend $100 a week on a car but if I jump into it and I end up with a few of these devils that I can race with .... so be it. I'm cool. 

I get back to the forementioned problem, and I'm working on fixing this now, of a nearby place to race. I've got another post going as well on 12'x4' track. Hopefully this will come to fruition and then maybe I can get some people over now and then and possibly even get to a place where we race these fray cars.


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## martybauer31

Yes, these cars are kind of silly looking, but you're really missing out on a great driving experience if you're basing them solely on appearance. The fray car is the most fun thing in my race case, bar none.


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## afxgns

Holy Crap!
You guys are taking over my thread!
L.O.L.

But Really,
I'm working on the next installment as we speak.


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## Bill Hall

afxgns said:


> Holy Crap!
> You guys are taking over my thread!
> L.O.L.
> 
> But Really,
> I'm working on the next installment as we speak.


LOL Tim!

We're just staying tuned in and filling your thread with "unholy crap" while waiting for the next exciting episode. :thumbsup: 

Just a bunch of squirmy kids during intermission.


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## afxgns

OK Here we go:
You will need:
The radio (AM and tuned to no station)

A power supply rated for 18-20 volts. Pluged in to the same recepticle as the radio.

Your parts and pieces

a small, sharp pointed probe, or toothpick

a set of sharp pointed tweezers.

some Wizzard brand brushes (do not scrimp on these. They are the ONLY brushes I use)
polish faces on a peice of paper setting on a hard, flat surface.

OK
Find That good chassis, throw on some shoes and let's get to it!

First, make SHURE you know which direction your power supply is running. and were to place magnets for proper rotation. the best way to do this is to take a car you know runs in the proper direction and test the supply.
the arm should rotate clockwise when all is right.
THIS IS IMPORTANT!!!!!!!!

Now that we have that done, let's start testing.
Grab that good plate, an arm and brushes, assemble with clamp
spool it up and remember the tone. Then turn the chassis around and spool it it up backwards, you should sound better forwards than backwards.

Don't change anything yet.

We want to "seat" the brushes.
We do this by getting the arm running and pressing the brushes against the com, GENTLY.
Try to stand up the chassis and get it running and use the toothpick to do this. Press in the center of the valley of the brush tensioner. You should feel the brush directly thru your fingers.
you will hear the revs go down a little,then release and repeat. don't allow the arm to stall when you do this. This should gain some revs for you.

The next thing to listen for is spinning brushes.This is something you don't want.If you have a good solid tone, your good.
if it sounds like you are slightly changing the position of your controller, you have a brush spinning. 
To stop this you will need to scratch an "X" in the bottom of your brushes. then reseat. this should correct the problem.

Now we get to the good stuff.
If your arm spins faster in the proper direction (clockwise) skip this next step.
If your arm spins faster anti clockwise, then we need to correct it.

Remove the arm but not the brushes. Align your chassis so that you are looking from the back to the front, you should be looking at the front brush. 
The right side should be higher than the left. To do this, remove the brush and grab the "v" with your tweezers from the side you want to be higher.
GENTLY tweek it up, and replace the brush and inspect.
this is a very delicate adjustment so go slow.
Simply turn the chassis around and repeat for the back brush. Try to get them looking the same.

When this is done to your liking, we will move on to adjusting tension. There are many ways to do this, and I will not get into all of them here.This is my favorite method,
Remove the arm and brushes. Looking from the top, place the toothpick in the valley of the tensioner and gently push up. this will bend the spring at the root of the "v"not back by the rivet. Do this a little at a time, checking your progress with the brush.


But try this test first.

Turn on the radio, turn the station selector to a spot were there is no signal.
Now spool up your chassis. You will hear the static change. This is a poor man's ocilloscope. It will let you know how efficient your little motor is running. As you play with the brushes, adjusting and changing, you will find that the static will get louder and softer, depending on your adjustments.
The quieter you can get the signal, the better your arm will perform.
You will also find that certain arms are quieter than others in that chassis.

Avoid over adjusting the brush tensioners. they are very delicate. if you get into trouble and bend one the wrong way, you can save some of them by making a little lasoo out of dental floss and pulling it back.

Never try to add tension with the chassis assembled. always remove the arm and brushes.

When you have it close, start changing out arms, looking for the one that sounds good.

Good luck! :wave:

Next installment:
blueprinting the geartrain.


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## Bro-man44

One silly question Afxgns, do you put the "X" on the brush towards the tensioner or towards the arm? I did this only one time cause I read about it somewhere else and I believe I put it towards the tensioner to keep it from spinning? Is this right? One thing I noticed was the car ran slower but I didn't do all the tweaking you mentioned!! Now will have to go back and do it right!! Great freakin' thread you got going here Afxgns!!!!!!!!!! Keep it coming!! 

Oh, could you give a quick explanation on why you "X" the brush and its benefits!! Pleeeeeeeeeeease!!
Thanks,
Tom


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## martybauer31

The X is put in the brush and placed down towards the holder and away from the arm. This way the brush is seated in the groove and won't spin when the arms spins across it. If the brush spins you will lose power and thus lose speed. Sometimes with the Wizzard brushes since they are really tall you may see a bit of slow down because you now have too much tension on the arm, sanding them down lower will reduce that tension and it should speed back up.


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## afxgns

Marty has it right,
Put the "X" on the side towards the tensioner.
If the brush is spinning, the acceleration is inconsistent. But the main reason is your braking the alost gone. Also, the brush will actually wear the tensioner in two, if you let it.


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## Bro-man44

martybauer31 said:


> The X is put in the brush and placed down towards the holder and away from the arm. This way the brush is seated in the groove and won't spin when the arms spins across it. If the brush spins you will lose power and thus lose speed. Sometimes with the Wizzard brushes since they are really tall you may see a bit of slow down because you now have too much tension on the arm, sanding them down lower will reduce that tension and it should speed back up.


Thanks Marty, much appreciated!! :thumbsup: 
Tom

Marty has it right,
Put the "X" on the side towards the tensioner.
If the brush is spinning, the acceleration is inconsistent. But the main reason is your braking the alost gone. Also, the brush will actually wear the tensioner in two, if you let it.

Ditto to you Tim!! :thumbsup: KEEP IT COMING!!
Tom

P.S. Tim...Kinda lost translation of this.."But the main reason is your braking the alost gone"  


Question...How do you put multiply "Quotes" into a reply


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## afxgns

Fat finger Freddy stikes again!

There are lots of reasons NOT to have brushes spinnig.
But the main reason is, how much braking you loose.
Traditionally, Fray cars don't run a brake wire. So all your braking has to come from the car. Either the geartrain or the brushes.
With the advent of the RT gears, your brush settup is even more important.

I Hope that covers it.


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## ebmjo

*Now I'm spinning anti-clockwise!*



> Now we get to the good stuff.
> If your arm spins faster in the proper direction (clockwise) skip this next step.
> If your arm spins faster anti clockwise, then we need to correct it.
> 
> Remove the arm but not the brushes. Align your chassis so that you are looking from the back to the front, you should be looking at the front brush.
> The right side should be higher than the left. To do this, remove the brush and grab the "v" with your tweezers from the side you want to be higher.
> GENTLY tweek it up, and replace the brush and inspect.
> this is a very delicate adjustment so go slow.
> Simply turn the chassis around and repeat for the back brush. Try to get them looking the same.


Interesting! What is the reasoning behind this? And whatever the reasoning, wouldn't it just work temporarily, until the brushes wear a bit?


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## Bill Hall

Yes your brushes will wear some, as they are a NWI (normal wear item).
The idea is to optimize performance in the correct direction of rotation within the brush wear limit. 

It's another leg of the current path. Chattering carbons rob performance... Carbons that are tighter than tree bark kill armatures! 

Like shoe tuning, it's a fine line that you have to sneak up on. Too much comm tension, and your asking for heat problems and excessive wear to the comm plates ...too loose and yer dogging the track with the potential for arcing damage on the comm plates.

A comm set up thats too tight is generally exhibits twitchy handling (off throttle skidding) and heat problems. A too loose setup is usually gutless often exhibiting erratic track manners or surging.

My rule of thumb is if you run a few laps and the arm pinion burns yer thumb it's too tight! LOL. sizzle....

Probably one of the most important and often overlooked step in the process is the "no load" break in period of your comm setup. This is where you should watch for "heat build up/no coast" (tight) or the "arcy/chattery" (loose) scenarios. Just do it!

Note: Every one has their own setup gadgets. For test poking the brush springs while radio tuning I use a sharp "cocktail" toothpick. For a brush spring adjusting tool a pocket screw driver that has been ground to fit the brush spring contour affords good control. I also use the toothpick as a tension removal tool from the topside should I over tease the brush spring.

If your new to process and worried about it, try it out on a clunker chassis first to get the feel of it. As Tim stated, GENTLY does it.


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## ebmjo

Thanks, Bill. But actually, the part I'm asking about is where afxgns says to make the right side of the brush higher than the left. Why, and how does it help the arm perform better when it's spinning clockwise?


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## afxgns

I think you're getting confused by the fact that as you look from the rear of the chassis, you are seeing the FRONT brush.
The trick is to get the trailing edge hitting first. As the arm is set into place, the preasure will flatten out the brush.


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## ebmjo

I think I understand what you're saying to do; put more pressure on the trailing edge of the brush if the arm runs faster when spinning counter-clockwise. 

What I'm trying to understand is why? What is the theory behind putting more pressure on the trailing edge of the brush? Why does this correct the problem?  


Thanks for the great thread!


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## Bill Hall

*It's a one way street*

I'm relatively sure DC current is directional from - to +

so follow the current path across yer comm

Flip over your chassis and follow with a pencil, the current flows from the rails to the comm in one direction or the other dependant on track polarity. 

Consider the looser side, whichever side that may be, like a current leak. If the leak is pre-winding (intake side) based on the current direction flow; then the arm cant do it's full potential of work. Ya got "current interuptus"

If the current leak is post winding (the exhaust side of the comm) then the arm poles get a better charge and she spins up faster, albeit it not quite optimum. AKA"current constipatus" 

It is important to note that whatever the polarity, the trailing brush must operate within its proper tension range for current to escape the comm thus completing the circuit and optimizing performance potential. Often an after break-in recheck will indicate that a slight touch is required on one spring or the other. Be certain you re-install the brushes in their correct "broken in position" after final tweaks. Once you've established your comm setup ...leave it be...replace brushes to correct performance drop off due to normal brush wear instead of chronically re-tweaking your set up.

It all depends on which way the electrons are driving across the comm.


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## afxgns

You're pretty handy to have around Bill.
What a great explanation of the concept.


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## Dragula

I think it is a very nice thing for you to give these tips,way to go!!
DRAGjet


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## Bill Hall

*On the Habitual Offender List*



Dragula said:


> I think it is a very nice thing for you to give these tips,way to go!!
> DRAGjet


Yeah Tim's letting the cat out of the bag...snicker...but "I" didnt cough up any secret Dragula tips under penalty of unga bunga!  

...cuz really I'm not nice...actually very naughty...just ask Santa. He says I'm very likely to re-offend. :thumbsup: 

Dunno if my line of comm blarney is kosher er not. Never gave the "why" a moment of thought until yesterday. I was hoping someone with a full compliment of braincells like "AFX Too" would chime in. Thus providing some proper electrical theory and bailing our butts out.

Just a caveman here..."Ugh... lil car no go! ... me squeeze brushes...makum car go faster!"

"Uh oh!..squeezum too tight and burn finger...me invent fire!" :woohoo:


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## Dragula

There very helpful to the new tuner,and the old guys who need a fresh spin on things they might not have picked up.Drag cars are a totally different tune though,more brush pressure good..uga buga!!
DRAGjet


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## afxgns

I have yet to find an original t-jet chassis that I can get too much brush tension with.

Tuff ones, AFX, JLs all can be over tensioned. But I would LOVE to get more tension from my Jets.

As you all will see in the next installment, when you get a really good set of gears, you need to stop the thing. And brushes do that real good.

Thanks for the compliments


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## ebmjo

Bill Hall said:


> Flip over your chassis and follow with a pencil, the current flows from the rails to the comm in one direction or the other dependant on track polarity.
> 
> Consider the looser side, whichever side that may be, like a current leak. If the leak is pre-winding (intake side) based on the current direction flow; then the arm cant do it's full potential of work. Ya got "current interuptus"
> 
> If the current leak is post winding (the exhaust side of the comm) then the arm poles get a better charge and she spins up faster, albeit it not quite optimum. AKA"current constipatus"
> 
> It is important to note that whatever the polarity, the trailing brush must operate within its proper tension range for current to escape the comm thus completing the circuit and optimizing performance potential.


OK, I get all that, but I'm still confused. 

Let me try again:
Why would I want a single commutator brush to have more pressure on one side of the brush than the other? Bill talks of the trailing brush, but Tim was speaking of each brush having more pressure on its trailing edge. Intiuitively, it makes sense to have equal pressure across the entire surface of the brush for best performance (assuming the overall pressure is right). Tim's suggestion seems counterintuitive, which is why I'd really like to understand.

Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse or wearing out my welcome,
but everyone else seems to get it but me!  

Thanks for your patience.


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## Brixmix

Tim 
Have you tired HO world brushes or Dennis Ruthfords 2mm brush they are pretty tall.

I get the most tension with out tweakin the "V" bend at the brush is to take a sewing needle and with chassis up side down and VERY carefully ,slide the sewing needle under the right side of the brush spring right next to rivet lift up to were the sping is out of the brush hole about 1/8" and with you finger nail press down on the brush sping. This tightens the spring buy the rivet giveing you a much more aggressive tweak and pulling up on the right side of the spring( with chassis upside down looking down at the bottom) will give you side tweak to spring that Tim was talking about so the comm gaps don't hag up on hard edge of brush with rotataion of the comm.Once this is done right you should have the end of the Brush spring ( before the "V" bend starts) touching the chassis and the "V" bend should be sticking through the brush hole. 

Now if you have to much right to left on the brush spring you can easily be fixed by useing that tooth pick and press very sightly on the brush spring by the rivet

You must remember the copper on these chassis are very thin and everything described above, are very delicate and aggressive steps take care and go slow


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## afxgns

Yes I've tried the needle method. It does work pretty good. But I hav'nt treid any HOW brushes and I didn't even know Dennis had brushes. I'll need to hit him up.


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## AfxToo

> Why would I want a single commutator brush to have more pressure on one side of the brush than the other?


You are correct that the ideal situation is to maintain a uniform and correct pressure across the entire brush surface. This will reduce excess brush friction and sparking, the two things that kill brushes and sap motor performance. 

The brushes in pancake motored slot cars have a precarious mechanical balance that affects their mechanical and electrical performance. The fact that the brushes are not firmly seated in their holders creates a number of problems. First, when the comm is moving the friction between the comm and brush wants to move the brush sideways. Second, if the brush is not sitting perfectly flat and evenly supported across the entire range of lateral movement, the friction between the comm and brush will tend to tip the brush on its side, and third, the angular force applied by the commutator at the friction point between the comm and brush makes the brush want to spin in its socket. All of these things move the brush around and create added friction,. Once the brush starts moving around the brush pressure is affected and this can cause additional sparking. 

Ideally, motor brushes are broken in at a specific contact point on the comm and assume a shape and form an interface that maximizes the wear characteristics of the brushes and performance of the motor. With inline motors this behavior is obvious because the brushes develop a concave shape to better mate with the comm. With pancake motors you want the same exact break-in thing to occur, and you want to form a perfect interface between the comm and the brushes. Stabilizing the brushes is essential. If the brushes move around they are never broken in and if they spark the comm-brush interface (or film) is destroyed, creating more friction, more heat, and even greater brush wear. It's a cascading failure effect. 

That being said, all adjustments made to the brush springs and/or brushes are made to counteract those three natural tendencies: lateral movement, tipping, and spinning. Using a brush that better fills the socket, like JB's, reduces lateral movement. Preloading the brush spring on one side can help offset the tipping tendency. Notching the brushes can help counteract brush spinning. Finally, once you get things as stable as possible, don't hesitate to use break-in your brushes for a few minutes before the start of a big race and after you have taken the car apart. And keep track of which brush goes in which socket.


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## ebmjo

*At last. Thanks.*

Afxtoo - Thanks for addressing my question with your excellent post.



> Preloading the brush spring on one side can help offset the tipping tendency.


So Tim runs the arm in reverse to determine whether preloading is necessary? From your explanation, it would seem as though some preloading might always be beneficial.


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## vaBcHRog

Brixmix said:


> Tim
> Have you tired HO world brushes or Dennis Ruthfords 2mm brush they are pretty tall.


Does Dennis have a website. The only tall motor brushes I have seen were Umphi's Tall Boys out of Germany

Roger Corrie


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## Brixmix

Yes Dennis's web site is http://thepitbox.4t.com/ and HO world's web site is http://www.howorld.net/


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## afxgns

Hey guys,
I'm home for a few days and I'll be getting to the next installment in short order.
Give me the skinny on what your problems have been in the previous segments. Too long, too short, wrong info, what gives?

Tim


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## martybauer31

Hey Tim, they have all been excellent. Maybe at the end, you could do a repost of them all at the beginning of a new thread, I think we've all mixed this up a bit by posting so much throughout.

Thanks!


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## Brixmix

Tim
I think tips are very informative and VERY helpful the only way it could be better is if it was in video so we could see what you are doing too. I really appreciate all the help you have given me with the tips and one on one build tech.
Travis


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## afxgns

Brixmix said:


> Tim
> I think tips are very informative and VERY helpful the only way it could be better is if it was in video so we could see what you are doing too. I really appreciate all the help you have given me with the tips and one on one build tech.
> Travis


I trying now to get some pics together for the next segment. That will have to do for now.


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## Bill Hall

*Knowledge is power*

Hey Tim, 

Thanx for the huge effort putting this all together!


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## afxgns

Bill Hall said:


> Hey Tim,
> 
> Thanx for the huge effort putting this all together!


You're more than welcome.
While I'm doing this Project, we're trying to put together a fray team. We've lost Three guys since the last Fray, so we need to find some good drivers fast.
If anyone is interested, try my e-mail:
[email protected]

Tim
Captain
Independence Fray team


----------



## Brixmix

Tim
I would love to run with you and Trek but I would not be able to get off work. I know you guys build very fast cars. 
Travis


----------



## afxgns

Hey Travis,
If you can get off work for thursday and friday that would do. We come back on sunday morning so we get home sunday night.

LMK
Tim


----------



## Brixmix

Tim
If I was working on the wall for a contractor I would be able to take the time off but I teach apprentice class durning that time and I can not take off during that time of the year. I wish I could I know it would very fun and a honor to drive for a KC team maybe if they change the fray date to before the new year or later in the March.

Travis


----------



## afxgns

Brixmix said:


> Tim
> If I was working on the wall for a contractor I would be able to take the time off but I teach apprentice class durning that time and I can not take off during that time of the year. I wish I could I know it would very fun and a honor to drive for a KC team maybe if they change the fray date to before the new year or later in the March.
> 
> Travis


No Problem Travis,
I myself was an apprentice in a former life.
Thanks for doing the lord's work in teaching apprentice training school.We need more of your kind to keep the skilled trades alive and kickin'

Tim Leppert
journeyman tool and die maker
class of 1989


----------



## afxgns

Thought I'd put this one back at the top.
The oil has been burning, and the next installment is close to being ready.

Tim


----------



## brownie374

GREAT very helpful and well written thread greatly appreciated!


----------



## afxgns

*Rear end gearing*

OK, 
For this episode we will need a few new things:

1: a supply of VERY small washers. I get these at the local hardware store, or the train store. These need to be around .010 thick and .065 I.D. It would be great to find a few that were different in thickness, so you could mix and match.

2: Rear axles.
This depends on your track. For sectional, I would go with a Tyco. They are .059 and have a spline. Good for rough tracks.
If you run alot of routed tracks, I would go with a drill blank. .063-.065 dia. Any smaller and the crown will be loose.
You can try a super g-plus axle. Splined and .0625 dia. good for all around stuff. just be SHURE it is straight.

If you want top of the line, then go for a tungsten/carbide axle. These put the weight back on the wheels and plants the rear end. They can be found at welding supply stores, in the TIG isle. They are expensive, but you can get Three axles from one blank.

Also, you will need the RT gear removal tool and the gear press. Also some of your 9 tooth gears still on the shafts, all of your rear driven gears and of course ALL of your crown gears.(only stock t-jet for this project)

And as an assembly aid, a spare tyco axle.(color the spline with a sharpy so you don't get it mixed up with your good ones.

Here we go:

First off grab your good chassis, and strip her down. remove the arm, mags and brushes.
Get your .059 axle and a crown, place the crown in the chassis and slip in the axle. Then place one of the 9 tooth gear and the shaft in the plate you want to use.

Now assemble the plate and the chassis and note the amount of left to right movment you have on your axle. This is the endplay.
Endplay is critical in meshing gears. You need to have some but not too much. Too much and it effects the preasure angles, too little and there is bind induced.

With a t-jet, you want as little as possible. The more endplay the more the rear end can move laterally. For anyone who has raced 1/24th cars, you know how important this is. It can GREATLY effect the handling of a slotcar.

Now, you need to start playing with the washers you have and get rid of the endplay. Luckily, the folks at Aurora did us all a favor, they made the gears pretty good. You should only need spacers on the inside of the gear, That is the side toward the 9 tooth shaft. usually around .020 is a good start. this does vary greatly.

As you rotate the crown gear slowly, watch the teeth for a wobble. If weebles wobble, they need to go. Replace and move on to the next one.

Get this close with your slip-in shaft, then try a prefit with the good one. You will probably be a little tight. Try to determine if the gear mesh is the culprit or it is the axle holes.
If it is the gears, you can loosen up by a good run-in with a dremmel, or you can try a lapping compound.

When you have this were you want it, protect it, 'cause you are that much closer to a good Fray car.

Next installment:
The rest of the drive train......Choooo-Chooooooooo


----------



## Brixmix

Tim 
Could you use a Super II axle like the Tyco axle? Why do those axles work better in sectional track ( is it because the fit looser in the chassis ) over a drill blank. In all my NITRO and Fray cars I have .0635 Tungsten axles but in my stockers I use just a .0635 drill blank. would it be better to use a smaller size in the stockers ( like super II or Tyco) and cut it down to 1.085?

Travis


----------



## afxgns

Brixmix said:


> Tim
> Could you use a Super II axle like the Tyco axle? Why do those axles work better in sectional track ( is it because the fit looser in the chassis ) over a drill blank. In all my NITRO and Fray cars I have .0635 Tungsten axles but in my stockers I use just a .0635 drill blank. would it be better to use a smaller size in the stockers ( like super II or Tyco) and cut it down to 1.085?
> 
> Travis


With the wide cars, I like the smaller dia axle in front and the back for sectional tracks. It seams to "walk" the bumps instead of popping them.
For stockers, I usually use drill blanks, simply 'cause I'm cheap. When you cut off a blank for a Fray car, the tag end can be used for a stocker.:wave:


----------



## Brixmix

You are right about the tag ends that is where I get mine:thumbsup:. I will have to try the small axle. I run on alot of sectional track.

Thanks Travis


----------



## afxgns

Bringin' this one to the top.
You all know what's comin'

Tim


----------



## tjettim

An armature has X amount of electrons in it's windings.You can move those
electrons by replacing the ones leaving with ones coming in,but you can
never increase the count.Even a 1 percent variance would vaporize the
copper.It is not a capacitor.


----------



## afxgns

Sorry guys,
Puter problems.
I'll be getting on it soon, I promise!:woohoo:

Tim


----------



## afxgns

OK, Here we go.
Up to this point, we have a rear end ready. We also enter into an area that is VERY hard to explain in full. You kind of have to see and hear what is happening. I will try to do my best to get you close.

Before I go into an explanation, I want to let you all know that there are alternatives to all this, That is CNC machined gears.
The two manufacturers that I know of are:

Wizzard http://www.wizzardho.com/Main.htm
R.T.H.O. http://rt-ho.com/index.html



Both are great products and have a place in the racing world. I have used both and I would rank them in order as I listed them. The RT gears are very high quality and have a head start on Wizzard. They are the main choice for most Fray racers.

The Wizzard product is a relative newcomer to the scene, but the quality matches the RT offering. Wizard also beats the RT price. This is why I feel the knod goes to Wizzard.

Both of these sets press on true and have a smallish center hole, making for a tight fit on event the most worn out arm shaft. When pressing on the drive gear (14t) don't press the gear on 'till all the play is gone. Only press on untill the shaft is flush with the top of the gear. This will prevent the gear from pulling the comm away from the brushes.(that one is VERY hard to diagnose)
If you use an unaltered press, you will be fine.

As for the driven gear(24), Take the rear shaft and pinion you chose from the last installment, and begin pressing. as you get close to home, stop and feel the play. You want this to be free spinning, but with little up and down movment.

Finally, install the idler, put 'er together, oil and spool it up.
STOP.
Install the idler upsidedown, and repeat. 
STOP.
If one way sounded smoother, mark the top with a skribe.

That's all for now.
Next installment, choosing stock gears and lapping/polishing the geartrain.

Tim Leppert


----------



## Brixmix

Tim
I have not used the Wiz gear yet, but they look like they need a like work? Do you have lap them in any or just put them on and go like with the RTHO?

Travis


----------



## afxgns

Brixmix said:


> Tim
> I have not used the Wiz gear yet, but they look like they need a like work? Do you have lap them in any or just put them on and go like with the RTHO?
> 
> Travis


I just pressed them on.

As a test, I took out a fray car from '07. Tuned it up, and ran ten laps on the oval. it took me 37.25 seconds to run ten laps (3.725 per lap avg.)
(I do not need to lift running a fray car on my oval)
Then I took off the stock gears,and pressed on RTHO gears.Ran ten laps in 31.78. (3.178 per lap avg.)
Repeat with the wiz gears, 31.80 (3.180 per lap avg)

That's increadibly close in my book. That 1/100th is not worth ten dollars to me.
Again, all I changed was the gears. everything else was the same. Oil,tire cleans, shoe burnishes, everthing.

Now this is not to say that the RTHO products are to avoided, he makes a GREAT product, and set the standard for all that will follow. I just happen to prefer Wizzard.

Tim Leppert


----------



## LeeRoy98

Excellent article Tim, 

Thanks for sharing.

Gary
AKA LeeRoy98
www.marioncountyraceway.com


----------



## Mexkilbee

Com'on Com'on, let's go! I keep checking in to see the latest Tim. We still got Shoes, Springs, Front Ends, Tires, Bodies, Screws, Pins, let's not pat ourselves on the back yet, get crackin, it's almost summer and the end of season up here in Buffalo. Sorry, I mean please forgive me for my impatience. Please can we continue? I wont get obstreperous again. I will say this to everyone else, you can save yourselves alot of time if you drop one of Mr Lepperts arms in.


----------



## afxgns

Water in the basement keeps me from posting a bunch right now. I am just finishing up that mess.

I will try to get the next installment this weekend. 
In the meantime, I am trying a new VERY interesting product and it pertains to the geartrain, so patience.........

AS I read the list you have there, I am kringing about the shoes intallment(s)

Thanks for the arm plug, I havn't been doin' too many lately. I still think that the way to go is to allow JL arms.

Comin' Soon........
Tim

Do I know you Mexkilbee?


----------



## Mexkilbee

We have never met. I have read a lot of articles and postings, everyone at the tracks in and around Buffalo have done the same, a few E-mails with Slotpro? Racers I know that have gone to the Fray, and Vagas. 
I agree with the JL Arms, and LEXAN tooooo...
Sorry about the basement, I wish I had an excuse. (I'm glad it's not flooding though).


----------



## afxgns

*Stock Gear settup*

Here we go with the stock gear stuff.

We will need:
The RT gearplate disassembly tool
The RT gear press
Some 1000 grit sand paper
Your Dremmel with the wire wheel (don't forget your safety glasses)
Some Lapping compound (Simichrome, Novus#2 or Mothers will work.)
A center punch and small hammer.
A hobby size "C" clamp, or a micrometer.
ALL of your brass gears.

To start off, line up all of you 14 tooth gears next to each other. You will notice that they do not look the same, we want to look for the gears that have the deep tooth valley and skinny teeth.
Set these aside.

Next we want to do the same thing with the driven gears. These are the 24 tooth gears that have the small hole. These are not as easy to seperate, but do your best. 
As an aside, if you still have some of the gearplates that say "patent applied for", keep these 14s and 24 drivens seperate. They are usually better quality than later gears.

Next thing is get all of your idlers. Guard them with you life. I don't even let my wife know were I keep my idler stash. They are VERY important to a smooth geartrain.

Now we are supposed to be building a Fay car. so a word about rules.
The pinion must be 9 tooth.
The idler may not be a hollow back. I know it's stock, but that's the ruling.
Also, there is a ruling regarding the outside diameter of the gears. I can't tell you what it is or when they will tech.
Some of the techniques I will share will alter the OD of the gears, so you can make up you own mind if you want to follow them.

I will tell you now that the rulings I have seen made were not what I deem to be in the bounds of fair play. To have folks traveling THOUSANDS of miles and spending MONTHS to practice and prepare, then to spring an unwriten rule on them is a dealbreaker for this writer. I will not return untill this stops or somthing is writen in the rules.

Sorry guys, I've got lightening here!!!!!
I'll be back tomorrow


----------



## afxgns

OK, Enough of rules already!

A few things before we get started swapping. This will take you a while. A LONG while. This is entering into the "hours of labor" Part of making a fast T-Jet.
Don't get discouraged (SP) Just walk away and come at it agian tomorrow. But The more time you spend swapping and polishing will pay off.

For the 14 tooth, find a good TIGHT gear. If you have a loose one, then peen the hole on both sides with the center punch and a SMALL hammer. GENTLY tap the punch as it sits in the hole until it creats a very small bevel. Then turn it over and repeat. This should tighten the hole to a point were it will stay on the motor shaft.
Then assemble the driven gear on the shaft, also peening if you must. Press this gear to a point were it has a small amount of play up and down. This should be at the stop, but not always.
Assemble the chassis with your settup shoes and everything else needed to run the geartrain. I would not put on the rear tires yet.We will need to clean this thing and the tires will get ruined by the cleaner.
Place in the first idler, and attach the band. 
Spool 'er up and listen to that box of rocks!
Now turn the idler over and see if it is any better. Repeat this with ALL of you idlers. You will find three or four that will sound better and rev higher than the rest. set these aside.
Now if you want to start pressing and swapping 14s and drivens you can do that or you can take what you have. The more work you put in, usually the better. You will find that the "Patent applied for" gears are usually better,especially the 24 tooth drivens. 


Now for oils.
I try to use the lightest oil I can. The old AFX oil is great for running the geartrain in, but is too thick for racing apps. Larry Thomas, John Habernal, Wizzard and trinity all make good oils.
Wizzard has a new product the I'm experimenting with right now.It is a product that is a coating for the metal pieces of the chassis. You simply apply the product and warm it up with a hairdryer. It adhears to the gears and will last MUCH longer than plain old oil. In any case, it is worth a try.

Oil all of the usual spots and note how much quieter the gears get. Also, and more importantly, note how much more RPM you get. A regular oiling schedule is paramount to smooth steady performance.I usually oil every 6 mins of running.

Ok Now for the tricks:

#1 I'm assuming that you all know how to lap in your gears. But there are a few things to do while you do this.Use your AFX oil, or any thicker oil you have, Place it on the plastic idler gear shaft before lapping. it will keep the center hole from getting too big. 

#2 Before lapping, take your 1000 grit sandpaper while the chassis is running, slip it under the 14 tooth gear as far as it will go without stalling the motor. Remove and listen to the difference. Repeat a couple more times.

#3 do the same thing to the 24 tooth driven gear. Get as deep as you can.

#4 Double over the sandpaper and start to hit the od of each gear.

#5 Stay ontop of the center hole oiling. This is very important!!! 

When you go to clean up, I've discovered that CRC makes a great product called "QD Electronic cleaner" This stuff is great and will not react with the platsic.
To put the finishing touch on your work. Try a final lap with "Novus #2" plastic polish. This stuff washes off with warm water, and is a very fine grit.

If you all want me to give the particulars of lapping, just say the word.

Tim

Next installment:
Finalize the geartrain


----------



## desototjets

afxgns said:


> If you all want me to give the particulars of lapping, just say the word.
> 
> Tim


Personally, I'd like to know. Thanks in advance.


----------



## wheelszk

I'm in for lapping.


----------



## waltgpierce

*Gear Lapping*

Here is one way to lap gears:

http://frhoracing.com/hop-up-hints/Slot-Car-Gear-Lapping.asp


----------



## afxgns

Thanks Walt,
I forgot about that one. I know that HO World has a fine installment on the subject also.
Just Remember Keep that Idler shaft oiled up good!


----------



## Bill Hall

Speaking of the stock idler gear.

Once I put on my readin' glasses and looked at the center bore...ugh! From that day forth I've been using a tightly rolled piece of twelve hundred to clean the snaggles from the bore of stock idlers.

Ya dont have to go hog wild, just pull the paper roll through a coupla times and a give it a few twists.


----------



## afxgns

Wheels and tires:
For this installment you should prepare yourself to spend some money at the shop. You will need to first determine what type of track you will be running on. For sectional tracks I would recommend a looser style front end set using a .059 axle. Wizzard, JWs, Or RTHO all make great products that fit this bill.
For Routed tracks, many folks like a tighter front end set. One that has a larger diameter axle and a tighter wheel set. All three listed above have this type also. You may want to make your own axle as described in the rear end installment, and this is fine also.
Next is the tire size. I always start at around .310 dia. Depending on the type of wheelset you choose, you can find o rings that go from .302 thru .324. You will need to adjust the sizes from right to left to achieve the stance for the front.
If you use a Wizard type you can simple grind you tire to size by chucking up the shank of the wheel in your dremel.
For the rear tires, There are many different manufacturers and compounds. The Wizzard green sponge silicones are a good place to start. They are a good compound for a track that starts clean and gets dirty. If you run in a place that gets very dirty during the race, a harder sponge compound works better. For a place that stays clean, you can run softer, like the Wizard blacks This just a rule of thumb. Start at around .350 diameter and go from there
Once you have the rears mounted up, it’s time to adjust stance and ride height. For this you need a very flat setup plate. I use a piece of 3/8 thick plexiglass with a 1/8 hole drilled for the guide pin. This is very important, If you use a piece of track for this, BE SHURE it is flat. The adjustments you make will be very small and you need a repeatable surface to rely on.

The plate with a hole simply means that you will be using the same contact points every time


As you place your car on the surface, look at it from an ant’s point of view. You want all four tires touching. If you have that, you’re halfway there. Now you want to work the pressure points. These points are right were you think they are. They are directly above were the axles are located. 
As your chassis sets on the plate, you press down GENTLY on these points and watch what happens to the opposing tire.

If your stance is close, you will not be able to se ANY lift from the opposing tire. If you do see lift, adjust your fronts accordingly. 
When this is were you want it, then we are ready for the BIG installment, Shoes.


----------



## wheelszk

Thanks again :thumbsup:


----------



## martybauer31

Nice Tim, thanks.


----------



## oldraceral

This is good stuff, Tim. Thanks for taking the time to post. The next installment should be a good read.


----------



## NTxSlotCars

I thought FRAY was just gluing the frayed braids onto the pickup shoes.


----------



## afxgns

oldraceral said:


> This is good stuff, Tim. Thanks for taking the time to post. The next installment should be a good read.



Ive been dreading writing that stuff down for months. The shoes are so important to almost everything.
I will need to get the camera out for that one though.


----------



## Mexkilbee

OMG, it's like I slept through Christmas and awoke just before New Years, Glad to see you picking this back up Tim. I hope this means the Basement is dry, and troubles are in the rear view.


----------



## afxgns

Mexkilbee said:


> OMG, it's like I slept through Christmas and awoke just before New Years, Glad to see you picking this back up Tim. I hope this means the Basement is dry, and troubles are in the rear view.


Dry for now, Soon to be for good!:woohoo:

I'm working on the shoe episode as we speak. I may do it in multiple parts. There's alot of stuff to cover.........
Stay tuned.


----------



## sethndaddy

God, Tim, can we do a breif retart version that doesn't require tearing up the gearplate?


----------



## SwamperGene

sethndaddy said:


> God, Tim, can we do a breif retart version that doesn't require tearing up the gearplate?


lol

Hey Ed, why don't ya get sick on Saturday and take the gang down to Maryland. This is a family event, wife and kids welcome. Hiram even rents a big moon bounce thingy for the kids. Crab fest, barbeque, racing, hangin'...it's a great day!


*http://echorr.com/page23.php*


----------



## wheelszk

O/T
Gene, hope everything goes good today. See you Sat AM. Leaving around 1:00PM today.
Bill


----------



## wheelszk

P.S. Ed, if you want to race this is the place to do it right.


----------



## afxgns

sethndaddy said:


> God, Tim, can we do a breif retart version that doesn't require tearing up the gearplate?



Sorry,
I don't get this one.
LMK what you want.


----------



## afxgns

Here we go guys, Let’s talk shoes.

Tools needed:
Flat settup plate
Tweezers
Duck billed pliers
Shoe Sanding block
Small flat blade scewdriver




First off: choices, choices.

Let’s list the options we have.
#1 stock Aurora shoes, We all have a bunch of them, heavy weight, won’t get bent in a rail hook, legal pretty much everywere.

#2 early Aurora small window. These are VERY hard to find, but they are different. I’m not shure they are an advantadge, but they do weigh a little more than stockers.

#3 BSRT: The first to repop shoes. They are very light weight and can be easy to set up. They also can be delicate in a wreck, and require and totally different spring settup.

#4 Slottech: The second to try his hand at the shoes. They are very similar to BSRTs offering. The hook area is different, but they also are delicate and thin.

#5 Wizzard: The most recent entry into the sweepstakes, and the most different from any came before. They are wider, and thicker gauge copper. The hook area is VERY similar to what I will try to get you to do with the other offerings.

( In the spirit of full diclosure, this writer had a small hand in the design, and manufacturing recomendations of the Wizzard offering. I will try to be as evenhanded in my tips and adjustments.)

The main goal here is to lower lap times, and make your car more of a winner. So you need to try different things and think outside the box. Don’t be afraid to mix it up from left to right. And from manufacturer to manufacturer. 

The first thing to star with is the hangers. Be shure they are tight on the rivets, and they are clean.
Let’s do stockers first: ￼
Choose a set that has not been screwed with and is clean and free from corrosion. We will need to pay very close attention to the hook area. 
Find a stock shoe spring, unmolested, and install your shoe. Look at the chassis from the side, there are three area we will be changing. The hook, the area where the spring makes contact, and the very front, or “window”.
We will also be adjusting the hanger in two ways. As you look from the side, the gap between the plastic and the copper, and as you look from the bottom, the “twist” of the hanger.

Now as you can tell by now, there are multiple adjustments. Just do one thing at a time, and you will be rewarded.
First thing to try is the hook. Remove the shoe, take your pliers, and grab the tail. Bend the tail so it points straight down. Reinstall the shoe and check your adjustment by trying to move the shoe from left to right. You want this movement to be as minimal as possible.

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh259/ssrinkc/DSC005831.jpg


If there is too much, you will need to bend the hanger down, towards the plastic. Remove the shoe, Place your screwdriver into the hanger window and gently bend the front end of the hanger down. Just go a little at first, at try the shoe for fit, repeat as needed, until the shoe has free up and down movement and small side to side movement.
Be VERY carefull when you are bending the hanger, it very easy to break the hanger so go slow!
This adjustment can be maddening, so be patient. You will probably go thru a couple of shoes before you figure it out, That’s why we start on stockers, they are cheep.

Once you get this where you want it, it’s time for the limiting bend. This limit’s the travel and is also a very important adjustment. Once again, grab your pliers and stand the shoe on the tail, pointing straight up. You are looking down the shoe, thru the window. Grab the very top of the copper, lining up the tip of the pliers with the top of the opening, then bend the tag so it points forward, bend it as far as you can, 

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh259/ssrinkc/DSC005841.jpg

we will end up with this tag folded over, forming a hem. 


http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh259/ssrinkc/DSC005861.jpg


Now, you can simply install the shoe and spring and adjust for contact as normal. At this point be sure to get the twist right, this sets the flatness in the left to right plane. Then manipulate the tag so you have the limit you want. Be sure that the front tires are the size you want. If you change the tire sizes, you will need to adjust the shoe limit accordingly.
As you lift the front end and set it back down, you want to see the smallest movement. 

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh259/ssrinkc/DSC00589.jpg


As you get this close, you need to get out the shoe sander and get that contact patch flat. The last adjustment is for spring tension. I always leave the spring alone and adjust tension on the shoe. Try to run the lightest tension you can. This will increase cornering speeds, and reduce the braking distance. The better the chassis/power combination, the lighter tension you can run.

Your tension is too light if:
Power is intermittent
Shoe(s) get a black residue
Right and left turns react differently.

Your tension is too heavy if:
Car deslots on entry of a corner,
Off the corner, or at the start. Car “front end hops” 
Front tires are off the setup plate.


To adjust the spring tension,remove the shoe. Place the tip of your pliers in the bend closest to were the spring sets. then close down and bend the hook down, increasing the distance between the chassis and the shoe. to increase tension, simply bend the other direction.
Now it may be easier for you to play with the spring. If that is a more comfortable adjustment for you that's fine. As you play with that, keep in mind, that the JL springs are a little heavier in tension. This can come in handy.

This is the basics of shoe adjustment. From here on out, we will simply use these basics to adjust the other brands.

As for American Line shoes, they are my “go to” shoes. If nothing else is working, I go to these. They are VERY close to stock shoes in weight, thickness, and shape. You can tell them by the sharp corners on the hinge end. 
You will want to bend the rear tang, and limit the fronts as usual. You can usually get away with a little less spring tension on these. Also, they tend to stay adjusted and not get tweeked in a wall shot, or by hooking a rail.


OK,
That does it for now. I will get into the BSRT and Slottech shoes in the next installment.


----------



## AfxToo

Pictures?


----------



## afxgns

Tired of photo bucket and the like. I already typed this thing and inserted pics, but they don't come thru, I'm tired of typing so give me a few days to get the pics figured out


----------



## LeeRoy98

*pictures*

Tim,
I am mirroring this tutorial on my website (remember, I asked for permission) and would be happy to host the pictures if you send them to me.

Thanks,
Gary
AKA LeeRoy98
www.marioncountyraceway.com


----------



## vaBcHRog

Tim you left American Line out of your Choices even though you mention them later  They actually are the first re-pops. Also for some reason AL are the best choice for magnetic braid on a Bianci track

Roger Corrie


----------



## afxgns

vaBcHRog said:


> Tim you left American Line out of your Choices even though you mention them later  They actually are the first re-pops. Also for some reason AL are the best choice for magnetic braid on a Bianci track
> 
> Roger Corrie



Hell Roger, I can't even remember my name sometimes. They are THE choice when it comes to t-jet shoes. I just assume that folks know them and they don't need to be mentioned.

And how would you know of such a thing, Braids and Bianchis and all? You don't happen to own a Bianchi do you?


----------



## LeeRoy98

*Shoes??*

As Michael Jordan (and Dorothy) said... it's gotta be the shoes!!!

Can't wait for the next edition Tim!

Gary
AKA LeeRoy98
www.marioncountyraceway.com


----------



## afxgns

Now that we have gotten comfortable with the stockers and the AMLs It’s time to try a different animal, the BSRT and Slottech shoes.

These are different from stockers in a few important ways. The first is weight. They are 30% lighter than most stockers, and they have a very different hook area. These two main things make them a great alternative for the fray racer.

As far as the hook area goes, I usually try to make it look like the stockers. Bending the hook and getting the tension close. The front is pretty close to a stock also, in the way you adjust for travel.

Many folks have used these with great success by leaving the hook alone and using it stock. You may want to experiment with both ways before you decide.

The main difference in the settup is the flatness adjustment. Get these very close BEFORE sanding. You can bend these while sanding them, causing a false reading. You will also find that these tend to want more tension. Be careful when adding tension, this will tend to lift the front end, causing deslots.

Also, Pay very close attention to the twist of these shoes, they are ALL twisted,. I find that I need to adjust this on every pair I use.
You will probably find that these shoes will improve your overall H.P. at the expense of handling. If you get them adjusted PERFECTLY, they are VERY fast. But it is very time consuming to do. And they tend to bend easily in a wall shot.

Overall, I use these shoes on many of my routed track cars, They do work great on sectional tracks, but the tendency to hook on track sections is too great and I have begun to avoid them for this.


Next issue:
Wizzard shoes, and on track adjustments.


----------



## oldraceral

Thanks for the tips, Tim.

I've been mainly using the Slottechs, but a couple nights ago took the time to adjust some stock shoes and was rewarded with a faster, better handling car. So, tonight I decided to try the same on another car. After totally mangling 2 pairs of shoes, the car was a bit slower than with the Slottechs. I guess that is just part of the fun of tjets.


----------



## SwamperGene

afxgns said:


> Now that we have gotten comfortable with the stockers and the AMLs It’s time to try a different animal, the BSRT and Slottech shoes.
> 
> These are different from stockers in a few important ways. The first is weight. They are 30% lighter than most stockers, and they have a very different hook area. These two main things make them a great alternative for the fray racer.
> 
> As far as the hook area goes, I usually try to make it look like the stockers. Bending the hook and getting the tension close. The front is pretty close to a stock also, in the way you adjust for travel.
> 
> Many folks have used these with great success by leaving the hook alone and using it stock. You may want to experiment with both ways before you decide.
> 
> The main difference in the settup is the flatness adjustment. Get these very close BEFORE sanding. You can bend these while sanding them, causing a false reading. You will also find that these tend to want more tension. Be careful when adding tension, this will tend to lift the front end, causing deslots.
> 
> Also, Pay very close attention to the twist of these shoes, they are ALL twisted,. I find that I need to adjust this on every pair I use.
> You will probably find that these shoes will improve your overall H.P. at the expense of handling. If you get them adjusted PERFECTLY, they are VERY fast. But it is very time consuming to do. And they tend to bend easily in a wall shot.
> 
> Overall, I use these shoes on many of my routed track cars, They do work great on sectional tracks, but the tendency to hook on track sections is too great and I have begun to avoid them for this.
> 
> 
> Next issue:
> Wizzard shoes, and on track adjustments.


While I agree that many of these points are valid with the 504's, I don't believe the Slottech shoes have these difficulties. They are thicker than 504's, have a different rear hook, and a smaller window (and they are not all twisted). "Pros" have been using these without issues since their release.


----------



## waltgpierce

More opinions and tests on T-jet pickup shoes (read all of the posts in the thread):



http://www.slotmonsters.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1318


----------



## wheelszk

Did spring tension come up in this thread, or does it not matter? I need help with this.


----------



## afxgns

SwamperGene said:


> While I agree that many of these points are valid with the 504's, I don't believe the Slottech shoes have these difficulties. They are thicker than 504's, have a different rear hook, and a smaller window (and they are not all twisted). "Pros" have been using these without issues since their release.


I'll be the first to admit to not having much success with the Slottech offering. I also should be trying to use them more than I do. I always found them to be "softer" and thinner than stockers. As for them being twisted, I have found them needing a tweek in the twist department, but that is also on a car that has had other brands of shoe on it. 

I will try to get a better feel for them this season and report back. If you have any tricks you would like to share, please feel free. It sounds like you have them figured out, so let's hear it.


----------



## vaBcHRog

afxgns said:


> Hell Roger, I can't even remember my name sometimes. They are THE choice when it comes to t-jet shoes. I just assume that folks know them and they don't need to be mentioned.
> 
> And how would you know of such a thing, Braids and Bianchis and all? You don't happen to own a Bianchi do you?


I have small Bianci oval but its in the attic. I did run on a very nice Bianci oval last Memorial Day weekend in NY at the Livonia 500 and AML were the ticket.


Roger Corrie


----------



## Mexkilbee

The only thing i would add to the conver. so far is about the corian shoe sander, .99c will buy you a knife sharpening stone at most hardware stores, you can "True" you contact patch with this before putting it on the car. Once on the car, a few minor adjustment tweeks and your "Swipe" will run from front to back.


----------



## SwamperGene

Mexkilbee said:


> The only thing i would add to the conver. so far is about the corian shoe sander, .99c will buy you a knife sharpening stone at most hardware stores, you can "True" you contact patch with this before putting it on the car. Once on the car, a few minor adjustment tweeks and your "Swipe" will run from front to back.


 
THIS! :thumbsup:


----------



## SwamperGene

Actually, when doing this you can test before putting power to the car. On a test track, with the car in place (ready to push forward), coat the top of the rail - 4" long or so - with a sharpie then push the car over it. You will see your results.

I've been doing this for a couple years now. Look at an untouched shoe under magnification, every brand is full of pits and scratches from manufacturing...invisible to the naked eye buy they are there.

Stone first then polish the patch to a mirror finish with a buffing wheel. If you do just this to a car, the difference is tremendous. _This_ is why I never dremel my race-prepped shoes. (and the stone will show you the damage a dremel can do)

This stone thing, by the way....more than just for shoes. :thumbsup:


----------



## SwamperGene

afxgns said:


> It sounds like you have them figured out, so let's hear it.


Actually Tim, aside from adjustment for rail height, we find them to be pretty much "plug and play", especially when you're around a .325 front. Good full lines on the shoes, and the stone trick verifies their overall very good flatness. As with any performance part, care and handling is important and I know sometimes lacking in some pits. My cars have been checked by numerous "real Fray" team mates and race buds, the only time any of my shoes were ever touched was when Steve Ward restricted them for me the first time I raced a "big race" with them, and he was leary about doing it as they were tracking so well. These shoes were simply installed on the car, no tweaking required.

We did have an issue the other night with a pair hitting the bottom of the chassis, but I'm leaning towards plates or an odd chassis problem as this happened with three pair of shoes on the thing, including a pair off another car without a clearance problem. :freak:


----------



## afxgns

Hey, thanks for the report.
If Ward said they were good, then they were GOOD. That guy is topped only by Royal when it comes to shoes. I know that Trek uses them alot. maybe I could get him to show me the ropes on them.

What kind of tension were you running? softer or harder? 
Do you ever run any smaller dia. fronts, say around .305-.300?


----------



## SwamperGene

Tension was likely on the high side as I kept launching if I approached the overpass too hard. I do like good tension, taking advantage of restricting shoes, and I probably could've controlled it better with a slightly heavier front. My biggest problem is time/distance, every time I've raced with the great east coast guys (VHORS/ECHORR) I usually end up with an hour or less prep time before the race. Still always fun though, and I enjoy the fact that while not in the winner's circle yet, my self-built cars are definitely in the hunt.


----------



## afxgns

Running with that crowd you will need the ponies! Take the advice of a prooven race looser: lighten up on the tension, and work with the patch. You want that washed out "X" pattern on the patch. 
When that shows up, then reduce tension and watch your laptimes. I know, it feels slower,but it's really a quiker lap, and you stay on for a larger lap total.

As an aside, I HATE time/distance racing. It's the lowest common denominator of race formats. A sellout for the promoters.
I like shorter spint races, and I think it gives the newbees a chance.


----------



## bearsox

bump it up !


----------



## afxgns

Ok,
Ok,
Damn, can't a guy get any sleep around here!


----------



## slotnewbie69

ebmjo said:


> Interesting! What is the reasoning behind this? And whatever the reasoning, wouldn't it just work temporarily, until the brushes wear a bit?


trust these guys,i got the same hints from slotmonsters,another great forum.these guys are saying the same things as jet one of their forum admins at slotmonsters.i have followed every tip i could with my limited tools,and my"ear dyno"and my cars have never run better!my stock tjets almost keep up with my m/t's!lol! not quite,but alot smoother than when i got my first vintage tjet and ran it with no oil,stock magnets,loose brushes,and tight wheels!i thought to myself,wtf?this thing sucks!i was used to magnet cars,however...i followed some sage advice,and over the next couple months bought some basic hop up parts.like knotched and bevelled brushes,mean green arms,gold ski shoes,and silicone tires.deburred my gear train,etc.now my aurora tjets are almost as fast as my aw/jl tjets...almost....the jl 's have a different gear ratio,and plastic gears and better matched magnets...anyway,i digress...ahem.there's tons of truth in what these threads advise,so happy motoring!and thanks to old y'all out there helpin us newbies relive our childhood!btw ;the jls seem faster,but my auroras stay on the track better in the turns!


----------



## slotnewbie69

afxgns said:


> With the wide cars, I like the smaller dia axle in front and the back for sectional tracks. It seams to "walk" the bumps instead of popping them.
> For stockers, I usually use drill blanks, simply 'cause I'm cheap. When you cut off a blank for a Fray car, the tag end can be used for a stocker.:wave:


that's a GREAT tip!thanks!i am always on sectional track!so,drill blanks are available at any hardware store?or would i hav eto go to a machine shop?looking to cut down on shipping costs,as i am in victoria b.c. and there's no ho suppliers here,really at all,so evilbay is my usual source/last resort!lolwe are popping out quite abit getting our four lane tomy going,so those kind of tips are great!btw,do i really need a wheel press,or can i get away with elbow grease?oh!would you recommend filing down the track rails where they meet?


----------



## afxgns

slotnewbie69 said:


> that's a GREAT tip!thanks!i am always on sectional track!so,drill blanks are available at any hardware store?or would i hav eto go to a machine shop?looking to cut down on shipping costs,as i am in victoria b.c. and there's no ho suppliers here,really at all,so evilbay is my usual source/last resort!lolwe are popping out quite abit getting our four lane tomy going,so those kind of tips are great!btw,do i really need a wheel press,or can i get away with elbow grease?oh!would you recommend filing down the track rails where they meet?


As for the drill blanks, I would go with a known supplier. Many of the on line slot car guys have them cut to length, or you can go to McMaster-Carr and get them yourself(This is cheaper.) Machine shops probably won't have drill blanks, but they way have .0625 drill bits they will parts with. These can be used if you cut off the shank and use it. But these will not be long enough for a FRAY style settup.
As for the Tomy track settup, two things to remember:
#1 Make shure your shoes are flat, as you look at them from the front, (twist)
#2 Lighten up on the spring tension. It sounds like you all are running too much tension. Also be shure to keep a good supply of guide pins.:woohoo:

And Yes, buy a wheel press.


----------



## slotnewbie69

afxgns said:


> As for the drill blanks, I would go with a known supplier. Many of the on line slot car guys have them cut to length, or you can go to McMaster-Carr and get them yourself(This is cheaper.) Machine shops probably won't have drill blanks, but they way have .0625 drill bits they will parts with. These can be used if you cut off the shank and use it. But these will not be long enough for a FRAY style settup.
> As for the Tomy track settup, two things to remember:
> #1 Make shure your shoes are flat, as you look at them from the front, (twist)
> #2 Lighten up on the spring tension. It sounds like you all are running too much tension. Also be shure to keep a good supply of guide pins.:woohoo:
> 
> And Yes, buy a wheel press.


i haven't changed the spring tension on the shoes,just the brushes.think my shoes are flat ,but he's working on his track and i guess there's still some rough spots...ditto on the guide pins,the jl ones are shite.maybe ican slide a wheel press past the wife ,they seem super practical,as i have skewered my thumb/finger removing tjet wheels by hand...plus why risk bending that rare straight jl axle?lol:thumbsup:thanks againi think maybe the slot joints could be sanded once we get our permanent layout going to help with pin stutter...


----------



## afxgns

Right now Wizzard has a great deal for mail order stuff. He carries the lucky Bob's wheel presses. These are some of the best around. 
Ask about the Christmas special.

http://www.wizzardho.com/Main.htm


----------



## slotnewbie69

afxgns said:


> Right now Wizzard has a great deal for mail order stuff. He carries the lucky Bob's wheel presses. These are some of the best around.
> Ask about the Christmas special.
> 
> http://www.wizzardho.com/Main.htm


thanks again!


----------



## mking

slotnewbie69 said:


> i am in victoria b.c.


 
hey newbie, if you ever get down to seattle let us know. there are a handful of us in the seattle area (martyb and myself from hobbytalk, and a bunch more who dont post here) have tracks and tools and controllers and can show you what we like. 

drill blanks make great axles, but you can also use drill ROD. drill blanks are hardened and heat treated. drill ROD is the bar stock used to make drill blanks, but before the all the heat treating. for a slot car axle, you really dont need the heat treating. you can buy drill rod in 1 foot or 3 foot sections, its easy to cut using a cutoff wheel and a dremel, and its CHEAP. 

heres a link to a thread about drill rod

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=209386&highlight=drill+blank

mike


----------



## Mexkilbee

I am not knocking anybodys tools, but from what I have seen with the presses and pullers I have bought, RTHO.com is the BEST for tools for T-jets. No wobble, precision you feel in your finger tips. .02cents (but I am still mad he came out with the idler post expander, and the magnetic arm balancer. I have been doing for some time now, i stole the magnetic arm balancer from the Radio control airplane guys a long time ago, they use it to balance their props., i stole the idea fair and square, o well, I am glad he did, he did an excellent job on it).


----------



## martybauer31

Mexkilbee said:


> I am not knocking anybodys tools, but from what I have seen with the presses and pullers I have bought, RTHO.com is the BEST for tools for T-jets. No wobble, precision you feel in your finger tips. .02cents (but I am still mad he came out with the idler post expander, and the magnetic arm balancer. I have been doing for some time now, i stole the magnetic arm balancer from the Radio control airplane guys a long time ago, they use it to balance their props., i stole the idea fair and square, o well, I am glad he did, he did an excellent job on it).


Seconded, RTHO makes great stuff, everything is always A+ quality and I have every darn one of his tools.... I also really like my Scale Engineering tire and gear press, but it appears he's not making them at the moment.


----------



## shlbsnake

hello, I am going through this tutorial, getting ready for the fray and I am curious about the older chassis you mention that may have a better machined gear train.I went through all my chassis's and found five that say PAT APPLD. are these the gear trains I want to set aside? They don't say "for" as you mentioned earlier.
Tony


----------



## afxgns

shlbsnake said:


> hello, I am going through this tutorial, getting ready for the fray and I am curious about the older chassis you mention that may have a better machined gear train.I went through all my chassis's and found five that say PAT APPLD. are these the gear trains I want to set aside? They don't say "for" as you mentioned earlier.
> Tony


Yes, These are the ones.

As a rule, these have a better cluster gear. I avoid taking the shaft apart if at all possible. I also think the older chassis are better overall. Just a crisper mold and better Q.C. Try to keep these gaers with each other if you can.

Good luck at the Fray this year. You will have a ball. Which team will you be with?


----------



## shlbsnake

afxgns said:


> Yes, These are the ones.
> 
> As a rule, these have a better cluster gear. I avoid taking the shaft apart if at all possible. I also think the older chassis are better overall. Just a crisper mold and better Q.C. Try to keep these gaers with each other if you can.
> 
> Good luck at the Fray this year. You will have a ball. Which team will you be with?


I am not sure what team I will be on I have been to the last 5 of them minus 2007 and just fill in where I am needed. Just there for the fun.
Tony


----------



## afxgns

*last installment*

Wizzard shoes:

Ok, here we go sports fans.

We will need :
Duck billed pliers
Tweezers.
Small, flat blade screw driver.
A pair of wire cutters.
A pair of the Wizzard shoes.

For another perspective on this same subject, try going to the Wizzard website for his tips and tricks with these shoes. He’s the master!
http://www.wizzardho.com/Main.htm

The first thing you will notice about these is that they are VERY different looking. And much heavier than the other aftermarket offerings. If you watching the weight on your finished car, (as you should be) you will be able to adjust the overall weight when running these shoes. This places more weight BELOW the C.G. Thus lowering it considerably.
They also may require a different set up on the hangers. Although, I usually try to run them without changing the hangers, just in case I need to go back to something else.

Before mounting:
We will be limiting the travel on these the same way we’ve done on all the other brands. By bending over the front. The only difference being, don’t go as far. Because they are made from a different alloy, and they are MUCH thicker, these shoe will break if you try to hem the top. That’s is fold them all the way over and crease them. So we need to simply place a 90 deg bend toward the top of the window with the tag facing towards the front of the car. By now you should be able to do this easily.
Using the same stock spring, mount one of the shoes and be shure it travels freely. If not, you may need to rotate the hanger plate so that it does. The hook at the back of these shoes is MUCH different than the other brands. It envelopes the hanger, and provides a very bullet proof set up.
Try running the spring tension these give you in stock form. In many cases I have left them as is. But because they are heavier, you may need to increase the tension. Do this the same way as you would with any other shoe. Just don’t go too far, you don’t need it.
When you get tension close, it’s time to set the travel in front and get them flat front to back. Now comes the tricky part, what I call, “Setting the camber.” This simply means twisting the shoe so it sets flat as you look at it from the front. This is hard to see with a sander, so it needs to be done by eye. If you don’t do this with these shoes, they will not run right. 
Please refrain from doing this on the chassis. Look at the shoe from the front, and note the “camber”. Remove the shoe and adjust the twist, then replace. 
If you try to do this on the car, it could bend the hanger and negate all of your other adjustments. With the other shoes, you can do this on the car, but because these are so much heavier, they could damage the chassis.
I have begun to use these shoes extensively on sectional tracks. They are so much smoother and they NEVER catch an edge, even on Tomy track.


I have really enjoyed sharing this whole thing with you all. I hope that it will help you enjoy this great hobby. Please remember to help the new folks that come to race with you in the future. Show them how to do this stuff for themselves. It will bring them back.

Thanks for reading,
Tim Leppert


----------



## Brixmix

Tim 
This whole report has been very helpful. I have used many of the tips you have posted with great success. I have also had the pleasure of racing with your group a couple of times and the support in person that the group as a whole gives is totally one of a kind. My building has improved everytime I race with them. Tim you have been a big help to me in building NOS t-jets with your one on one and your written how toos.

Thank You Travis


----------



## LeeRoy98

*Thanks Tim!!*

Thank you Tim, 
I'm sure I speak for the entire list in appreciating your sharing. With these tips and Travis' help, I might actually get a car out of last place

Thanks,
Gary
AKA LeeRoy98
www.marioncountyraceway.com


----------



## bearsox

bump bump bump:thumbsup:


----------



## afxgns

Yep.....
The guys are getting ready for the trip in haste. This comin' wednesday the shooters will start arriving in heaven (AKA Ferndale Ca.) Sadly I cannot make the trip this year,But I'm shure a good time will be had by all.

So what have you all learned from the last year of tuning? 
Have you gotten faster, or not so much?
Have you figured out the key for a good night at the track? (besides beer)
What tuning questions have you not gotten answered?

:wave:


----------



## Brixmix

Tim
I for one have gotten much faster ( at least faster cars anyway) this last year with your tips and Steve's tips and Jocham's tips. I think a few more trips down to KC and I might learn to be a desent buider or at least more consistant. 

Thanks Tim:thumbsup:

OH I have one question. How the heck do you build cars that are the same speed every time one is built?


----------



## bearsox

*Hey Tim ,
i have learned alot but yet to put much into practice ! Too busy with other things and have not had time for what once was more a passion than the BUSINESS of slot cars ! Ya gotta do me one favor and hold back something from Travis as he's just gotten way too good LOL ! The mans a sponge with info and puts it into cars that turn into bullets that handle . Actually Trav is just a good egg and loves the hobby and has lots of fun at it .I'm happy he has all kinds of enthusiasum and you sharing info helps that cause in all of us so thanks ! BTW one of these days i'll make it down your way for that beer we talked about way back when . I know i owe Trek a few and suppose i owe you atleast that ! 

Take care , Dennis :woohoo:*


----------



## Mexkilbee

I can't believe Tim is done, but going back through the thread it seams everything has been covered to some degree. I'm glad it didn't end like The Sapranos and just fade t


----------



## afxgns

Mexkilbee said:


> I can't believe Tim is done, but going back through the thread it seams everything has been covered to some degree. I'm glad it didn't end like The Sapranos and just fade t



Hell no I'm not done........

I just want to get the ball rolling for thew rest of the tuners out there. 
What are your biggest bugaboos?
Did you get it fixed? How? 
What is the best way to get good practice?
Those are trick tools, but can I make them cheaper and still do the same job?

That's just the start. There's a ton of folks out there that love to build these things and love to share.:woohoo:


----------



## Mexkilbee

Well all right then, Pick up shoe spring tension. I have seen a tool, and have seen guys just use a digital scale and something to push the shoe down (screwdriver). But how do they get the Chasis not to move around and the measurements to be accurate? I tried to do it with my digital scale the chasis was flopping around, the scale measurments were bouncing all over the place, so how do you do it? I have had guys tell me you need 5 grams on one side and 2 on the other or such and such, i end up replacing with new untouched or "Stretched" just a little until i get good contact, then i have to tweek for handling. It's quite the process for me now, looking to go about it in a way that when I pull the car off the trailer at the track i have a good baseline allready under it.
I'm so happy that was not the end of this thread.


----------



## Brixmix

If your front wheel & tire combe are the same on both side you what to have your shoes the same tension on both shoes. This is for a road course setup. If you run oval you shoe set might be different of optimal handling. I use a force tension gram scale to check tension. I use 1.8 to 2.2 grams depending on the shoes I'm running and the track I'm running on.


----------



## martybauer31

Mexkilbee said:


> Well all right then, Pick up shoe spring tension. I have seen a tool, and have seen guys just use a digital scale and something to push the shoe down (screwdriver). But how do they get the Chasis not to move around and the measurements to be accurate? I tried to do it with my digital scale the chasis was flopping around, the scale measurments were bouncing all over the place, so how do you do it? I have had guys tell me you need 5 grams on one side and 2 on the other or such and such, i end up replacing with new untouched or "Stretched" just a little until i get good contact, then i have to tweek for handling. It's quite the process for me now, looking to go about it in a way that when I pull the car off the trailer at the track i have a good baseline allready under it.
> I'm so happy that was not the end of this thread.


You need to take off your top plate and leave the magnets in place, this will keep the chassis steady when you have it upside down and are trying to take your measurements. Make sure you are taking the measurement from the same point on each shoe as well.

The problem with having a baseline measurement is that these are t-jets we're talking about, they are each an individual entity unto themselves. I have tried in the past to get each shoe to match up at 2.5 grams of tension on each side or what have you, but since each car is different (i.e. magnet strength, balance of arm, ohmage of arm, twist in chassis, etc.) it's impossible to use the same measurement for each car.

I find it easier to adjust for each car individually. If you run a few laps and the shoe is turning black, you don't have enough tension... either stretch the spring slightly or add a .003 or 5 teflon spacer under the spring until it goes away. If you are coming out of every single corner and the car feels jumpy, squash the spring down a bit.

Hope that helps a bit, you just really want that nice, clean, hourglass mark on your shoes from front to back and you know you have them dialed in.


----------



## Mexkilbee

Brixmix, what does a "Force Tension Scale" look like? I have seen a tool that has a plunger that is used for Shoe Spring Strength, is this it?

Marty31, i never thought of that, afraid the Magnets would screw up the calibration of the scale, but since you mentioned it, i do wiegh complete chasis on the scale so i don't see why that wouldnt work, Thanks for the heads up, going to try it tonight. 

I have noticed and been told that the Driver side (Left side of chasis) was the shoe that needed the tension, and that was the side to have stiff. I often do have the shoe springs set up the same. A lot of the racers do have the left stiff and the right just danglin, they win so it's hard to argue with them. I run the springs light, just hard enough to get the "Mashed Taters" off the spoon. It is the left side that has the tendancy to show soft springs the most. I do like the spacer trick alot more than stretching the spring, but in the heat of the pits it's old habit to just yank the spring a little bit more. i have had springs completly collapsed in on themselves do to to many spacers, or to thick. espescially when the shoes are restricted, I thought this was a bad thing, is it?


----------



## afxgns

Mexkilbee said:


> Well all right then, Pick up shoe spring tension. I have seen a tool, and have seen guys just use a digital scale and something to push the shoe down (screwdriver). But how do they get the Chasis not to move around and the measurements to be accurate? I tried to do it with my digital scale the chasis was flopping around, the scale measurments were bouncing all over the place, so how do you do it? I have had guys tell me you need 5 grams on one side and 2 on the other or such and such, i end up replacing with new untouched or "Stretched" just a little until i get good contact, then i have to tweek for handling. It's quite the process for me now, looking to go about it in a way that when I pull the car off the trailer at the track i have a good baseline allready under it.
> I'm so happy that was not the end of this thread.


There are three ways of measuring tension:

A Tension gauge, These are a guage made for piano tuners to measure the force required to depress a key on a piano. They are available on epay and cost between $100-$300.

There is a fixture being made that afixes to your gram scale that can measure tension. I've never even seen one, let alone used one. If they were a great thing, I think one of my fellow racers here in KC would've gotten one to play with.

Then there is the method I use, my "eyeball and a pair of tweezers method"
If your car deslots when it changes direction, you have too much.
If your shoes get black you have too little.
if you can't get the speed without loosing handling....change brands of shoes.

A few wivestales regarding shoes that need to be dispelled:

If you spend a ton of money for a tension meter, you will suddenly win races.
You must run the same brand of shoes on both sides.
If you use more tension, your car will have lower laptimes.

All of these are untrue.....so get to work:thumbsup:


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## ohno50

How does stretching the spring increase the tension. Are you increasing the active coils or changing the diameter of the spring? What is the math to the magic?


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## martybauer31

The number of coils nor the diameter of the springs change. You are changing the length of the spring (extension). Hookes law of elasticity states that the extension of a spring is linearly proportional to its tension, the force used to stretch it. It also works on the inverse for compression...

No magic, just mechanics of materials in action...


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## ohno50

I thought Hookes Law is a reference for the force in consideration of the spring returning to equilibrium.

Isn't a semi-permenant distortion occuring is this instance?


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## martybauer31

Sigh..... really? We're going to debate over a spring in a t-jet? For goodness sakes, take a spring, stretch it out a little bit and tell me it doesn't have more tension..... You have to do ZERO math to figure that one out.


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## afxgns

martybauer31 said:


> Sigh..... really? We're going to debate over a spring in a t-jet? For goodness sakes, take a spring, stretch it out a little bit and tell me it doesn't have more tension..... You have to do ZERO math to figure that one out.



Thanks for putting out THAT fire.

Maybe we need to come up with "Brand's law". If you talk about toy cars and you're over 30, you will be challenged with minutia 'cause you play with it.:woohoo:


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## hrnts69

Who does good motor building (balancing) for the pancake arms? Iam looking to get some of my arms done. Theyll be for Xtraction cars.

And thanks for the thread Tim! Iam already becoming a better builder for these pankcake cars!

Blake


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## Bill Hall

*I'll have the combination platter*

Math?! Minutia?! Magic wands?!

Oh dear lord. Just put the darn car on the track and tune the silly thing...certainly you'll have to tweak it at the next track you race on and so on and so forth.

Shoe voodoo presumes that one knows the basic difference between stutter and sputter. Stutter is over sprung....sputter is undersprung!

Marty pretty well spelled it out. If ya stutter and clean up you then need more weight or less spring. If you continually sputter and puke you need more spring. If you added more spring and you start to stutter and the rules allow...then add some weight! If you high side in the turns repeatedly you need less spring. If your carbon fouling you need more spring. If your patch is toed or heeled just adjust it to hourglass...ya dont need an advanced degree in mathematics and an taxpayer funded impact study to sort it out. You look ....you bend ....you recheck. 

Does your front tire profile set the shoe windows in the middle range with equal up and down travel limits, with in the range of your shoe restriction, when the car is at rest on the track? I would hope so.

The shoes are supposed to FLOAT! Ideally the shoes must be have a hair more travel than the difference between the highest and lowest points of your rail across the track as a whole. Otherwise your plowing the shoes. So add a smidgen at the top and bottom limits.

It aint brain surgery...it's a t-jet...there is NO MAGIC number merely a ball park setting with fairly deep fences and it's up to the tuner to get it into the base path. IMHO it's about finding the correct combination of variables on a given rig, on a given track, on a given day. To presume that a scale, meter or micrometer will provide the needed alchemy to create a screamin' banshee presumes that there is no magic in the equation. Repetition, observation, and persistence are directly related to the actual FEEL...slide rules are not.


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## T-Jet Racer

The Two Side Of An Isosilees Triangle...oh Never Mind!!


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## waltgpierce

*arm balancing*

HRNTS69,

The best armature balancer for pancake motors is Dynamic Armatures. He is the only one that has the capability of doing electronic/machine pancake armature balancing. 
While there are many that do a very good job of hand-balancing (including our own AFXGNS !), they cannot meet the performance specifications of a machine balanced arm.

http://dynamicarmatures.com/Armatures.htm


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## slotnewbie69

thanks for the link!they're cheaper than ag&g,are they not?


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## Mexkilbee

Wow all that that for "Stutter or Sputter", and no one even touched on the possible anealing effects of heat cycles or sun spots.

Here's one for the "Master" builders:
Lets just say for arguments sake. You have a really fast, great handling, broken in to perfection T-Jet. Now it's time to tear apart and clean for the big race. My question is, how do you put it all back together, and have it run as well as it did on the bench/test track as it did before the cleaning? Has anyone pulled this off? I'd like to think i have but i think it's a case of a "Broken Clock" is right twice a day. 
I have kept the gears lined up, i have kept the brushes seperated (Front and Back), the same Mags, Shoes on the same side and possition, everything the same, assymbled the same, at the same time of day, ate the same meal, and seldom does the car stay the same. Any ideas?


----------



## martybauer31

Mexkilbee said:


> Wow all that that for "Stutter or Sputter", and no one even touched on the possible anealing effects of heat cycles or sun spots.
> 
> Here's one for the "Master" builders:
> Lets just say for arguments sake. You have a really fast, great handling, broken in to perfection T-Jet. Now it's time to tear apart and clean for the big race. My question is, how do you put it all back together, and have it run as well as it did on the bench/test track as it did before the cleaning? Has anyone pulled this off? I'd like to think i have but i think it's a case of a "Broken Clock" is right twice a day.
> I have kept the gears lined up, i have kept the brushes seperated (Front and Back), the same Mags, Shoes on the same side and possition, everything the same, assymbled the same, at the same time of day, ate the same meal, and seldom does the car stay the same. Any ideas?


Ahhhh yes, sun spots! I have a chart in my box for that as well.... it's right next to my tide charts. 

On occasion I will get lucky and remember which sandwich I ate before the last good race and my car will be ABOUT the same, but typically they need some work. I think it mostly has to do with the brush holders and the fact that the flimsy little copper strips are weakened with the constant pressure on them. I also am sure that the wear on the shoes plays a significant effect.

Guys have posted here in the past that they will take their cars apart after a race to avoid weakening of springs, brush holders , etc. Seems like a good thought to me.


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## Bill Hall

*Ya just had to go there*

In general... 

If I had to choose, I'd say brush wear is probably first with upsetting the brushes and having to have them break in again after disassembly a close second. I believe Tim was quite specific about careful re-indexing of brushes after dis-assembly. 

Unloading the brush and pick up springs for prolonged storage sounds pheasible...but doesnt that just lead you to the clock being right twice a day again? Certainly heat fatigue plays a role on the comm springs but I figure if your barbecuing comm springs ...you have uther problems!

Coagulated goo is up there on my list. You know that oily brass paste that builds up... if you let it.

Pick ups oxidize just sitting there so it's a no brainer that they should be scuffed before use. Unless your contact patch is wacked they should last a while. Keep in mind that the brushes and shoes are NWI's (normal wear items) and as such have a somewhat limited life span. 

I seem to have the best luck keeping cars running by.....wait for it....leaving well enough alone! hahahahahahahahaha.

For service I remove the wheels/tires and hose the FULLY ASSEMBLED chassis thoroughly with contact cleaner. Then it is blasted it with compressed air before the cleaner evapaporates and taking care not to directly blast the comm springs or pick ups. I do blast the gear rack, axle holes and pinion areas directly to ensure any residual particals are removed. Careful not to hit your windings. Duh!

Then I re-oil as normal and spin them up on the power source. I seldom break them down until it's time to swap brushes.


----------



## slotnewbie69

martybauer31 said:


> Ahhhh yes, sun spots! I have a chart in my box for that as well.... it's right next to my tide charts.
> 
> On occasion I will get lucky and remember which sandwich I ate before the last good race and my car will be ABOUT the same, but typically they need some work. I think it mostly has to do with the brush holders and the fact that the flimsy little copper strips are weakened with the constant pressure on them. I also am sure that the wear on the shoes plays a significant effect.
> 
> Guys have posted here in the past that they will take their cars apart after a race to avoid weakening of springs, brush holders , etc. Seems like a good thought to me.


so i should keep my tjets in little baggies and assemble them prior to a race?or just insert the brushes beforehand to prevent spring wear?i think bill's idea is the best.leave well enough alone!don't over oil,and you won't have to over clean,yadayada....


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## martybauer31

slotnewbie69 said:


> so i should keep my tjets in little baggies and assemble them prior to a race?or just insert the brushes beforehand to prevent spring wear?i think bill's idea is the best.leave well enough alone!don't over oil,and you won't have to over clean,yadayada....


I don't think I said that at all.... I did say some folks out there take everything apart between races to try and reduce tension on brushes, springs, etc...

Even with leaving well enough alone, not over oiling and yadayada, anyone who has ever run a t-jet knows that if you stare at it the wrong way it's going to run different than when it was running hot laps on your home track before the big race.


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## Mexkilbee

I think/believe that a clean T-Jet runs better than an oily/dirty one does. Even though I know it isn't going to be the same I Have to take the risk. I would leave it alone, but it is most likely going to get torn down for tech afterward anyway so what the hey. i just wish it would stay the same, or get better which has happened also. i wish the later would happen more often than not but.... 
Right now the big monthy race is less than a week away and I know i am going to need new brushes and shoes thrown on, and i am dreading it. It has to be done so i will, and then number two will most likely come off the trailer for the actual race. I do think there is magical brushes out there probably in your box right now, it would be nice to know for sure, like if they came with lot numbers and production dates, that would make things simple. (not!)
And that Brass Goo that Bill mentioned, does it ever stop? I have semicromed or flitzed, even brassoed many a gear train, torn down completly, sonic washed, bristle brushed, ionized, boiled, cleaned with alcohol, and lighter fluid even Lava (Hah) over and over again and cant get rid of it on some chasis. i have read that if this takes place the compounds used to lap gears is still in the chasis, but I tell you this, i have cleaned the car beyond beyond and still it rears it's ugly head. I have come to live with it, but should I? 
Tim thanks again for this thread. I have less troubles now,and more answers than I would have gotten anywhere else, it seams these guys don't even mind me being the spoon that sturs the pot here or there. GOOD STUFF for sure!


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## slotnewbie69

martybauer31 said:


> I don't think I said that at all.... I did say some folks out there take everything apart between races to try and reduce tension on brushes, springs, etc...
> 
> Even with leaving well enough alone, not over oiling and yadayada, anyone who has ever run a t-jet knows that if you stare at it the wrong way it's going to run different than when it was running hot laps on your home track before the big race.


i know,i was being a smartass!sorry!they are definately quirky little buggers!i am sure if i competed at your guys level i would take it that much more seriosly.didn't mean nothing by it...


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## martybauer31

slotnewbie69 said:


> i know,i was being a smartass!sorry!they are definately quirky little buggers!i am sure if i competed at your guys level i would take it that much more seriosly.didn't mean nothing by it...


Yasee? this is what happens when you leave a smiley face out of the comments... No worries, I forgot mine too. :wave:

And I may compete (if you want to call it that) at that level, but I get my butt kicked at that level as well.....


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## Mexkilbee

Ok Tim here are my cheap tools list:
Philips Screw Driver with the head worn out became my shoe adjuster. I cut off the philips head, cut a slot into the end bent it and now I have a shoe adjusting tool that BRP sells.
Knife sharping stone became my "Corian Shoe sander" (explained earlier in thread)
Old axel became my idler gear post expander.
Bought a sheet of .005 steel (@ hobby store (K&S Metal) became feeler gauges for me and a lot of guys at the track. Punched a 1/8th hole and cut a slot into it. (Didn't want to ruin my real feeler guages).
Kids chunk of playdough with two razor blades at one time was my Peazing(?) tool, arm balancer. (With help of bubble leveler)
Dremel cut off tool mandrel (for fiber cut off wheel) became stock tire/front tire turing mandrel. 
old battery powered tooth brush became a body sander (Put a wad of glue on the bristles, and when that was dried glued a small chunk of 80 grit to it) ossilates pretty good, good for sanding the inside of a body for clearance and lightining/thining of body, probably could expand it's uses with differant grits. (uhmmmmm grits with butter uhmm)
Stereo knob got sanded down to .700, now it's my arm plug for setting up magnets. 
and there you go, hope someone gets an idea off this, anyone got any other homemade tool ideas out there?


----------



## afxgns

Mexkilbee said:


> Wow all that that for "Stutter or Sputter", and no one even touched on the possible anealing effects of heat cycles or sun spots.
> 
> Here's one for the "Master" builders:
> Lets just say for arguments sake. You have a really fast, great handling, broken in to perfection T-Jet. Now it's time to tear apart and clean for the big race. My question is, how do you put it all back together, and have it run as well as it did on the bench/test track as it did before the cleaning? Has anyone pulled this off? I'd like to think i have but i think it's a case of a "Broken Clock" is right twice a day.
> I have kept the gears lined up, i have kept the brushes seperated (Front and Back), the same Mags, Shoes on the same side and possition, everything the same, assymbled the same, at the same time of day, ate the same meal, and seldom does the car stay the same. Any ideas?


I usually do the "one thing at a time" method.

Remove the plate, do the stuff underneath. (don't get the cleaner on your rears)

Hose off the plate. Leave the idler on, if you're worried about such minutia.

Soak and swab the brushes. remembering front and back.

Remove the shoes and burnish as needed.

Inspecting all the while for hairs. (not those kind!)

Wash the body with dish soap and water.

Inspect guide pin for wear.

When you're done, run the chassis and re seat brushes. If they don't seat, replace.

I clean my stuff all the time. If it's dirty, it's slow. I treat it as a chance to check for wear and and hairs. These can rob a good car of HP.:wave:


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## afxgns

Mexkilbee said:


> Ok Tim here are my cheap tools list:
> Philips Screw Driver with the head worn out became my shoe adjuster. I cut off the philips head, cut a slot into the end bent it and now I have a shoe adjusting tool that BRP sells.
> Knife sharping stone became my "Corian Shoe sander" (explained earlier in thread)
> Old axel became my idler gear post expander.
> Bought a sheet of .005 steel (@ hobby store (K&S Metal) became feeler gauges for me and a lot of guys at the track. Punched a 1/8th hole and cut a slot into it. (Didn't want to ruin my real feeler guages).
> Kids chunk of playdough with two razor blades at one time was my Peazing(?) tool, arm balancer. (With help of bubble leveler)
> Dremel cut off tool mandrel (for fiber cut off wheel) became stock tire/front tire turing mandrel.
> old battery powered tooth brush became a body sander (Put a wad of glue on the bristles, and when that was dried glued a small chunk of 80 grit to it) ossilates pretty good, good for sanding the inside of a body for clearance and lightining/thining of body, probably could expand it's uses with differant grits. (uhmmmmm grits with butter uhmm)
> Stereo knob got sanded down to .700, now it's my arm plug for setting up magnets.
> and there you go, hope someone gets an idea off this, anyone got any other homemade tool ideas out there?



This should be a thread untu itself.

There's some great stuff here!:woohoo:


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## shlbsnake

I haven't bought a magnet matcher yet and I read about using a compass and ruler. I was working on it this weekend and all of the rear magnets seemed quite a bit stronger than the fronts no matter if I used JL's or originals. How do I match them if I can't get a consistent reading?I was using millimeters's and the difference is consistently 20-30 mm diff between the front and rears. any idea's or should I just wait and get the machine?
Tony


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## brownie374

Get the brp matcher


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## slotnewbie69

martybauer31 said:


> Yasee? this is what happens when you leave a smiley face out of the comments... No worries, I forgot mine too. :wave:
> 
> And I may compete (if you want to call it that) at that level, but I get my butt kicked at that level as well.....


at least the guys yer runnin with can keep it in the slot.thank goodness we are running a timer now i was losing track of my laps waiting for everyone to reslot.faster is not always better when ya gotta keep everyone waiting...


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## BigMike

Man do I appreciate this thread. I'm getting back into the hobby after a long time away. I have never raced competitively but did have regular races with my dad and Brothers back when I was still in high school. Our cars came to resemble the fray cars with the extended axles and aftermarket tires we used. I had them all till about ten years ago when a flood destroyed everything. My favorite car was a 69 AMX with the setup like I mentioned. Dad had a Cougar and my brothers had a camaro and mustang. I want to get some cars set up to run smoothly and as equally as possible as my daughter and new son in law would like to race with me once in a while. 

Long winded but I do have a couple of questions. First are these cars more smooth accelerating and braking and do you run brakes on them? Guess that was two but one more question is what controller specs would best match these cars again for smooth acceleration etc.?

I'll post a pic of the layout I plan to build later. Just a home track but I want it to be fun for the kids. BTW Mandi my daughter did spend hours running cars I bought later when she was about 8 and she loved to bump me off the track on the corners. It will not be made as easy as it was back then.

Mike


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## slotnewbie69

follow the tuning tips threads here and on slotmonsters.HOWORLD has great tuning tips aswell.bottom line REDUCE FRICTION!these things are 40 years old in some cases,so any little tweak that will get ya a bit more out of your motor is good.lap those gears!all the fray guys i have talked to can not stress this enough.have a nice lapped set of gears for each motor/gearplate assembly,and once you work it in,keep those gears together and always use them together.matched magnets is another big one.see if you can find one of the guys to balance your fastest motor,as this will improve your performance alot.having an equally matched set of magnets,and a balanced motor will ensure your motor is spinning in the most even magnetic field possible.also check to be sure pinion shaft and armature shaft are straight up and down.out of round gears and out of round wheels are a common issue aswell,and there are plenty of threads here to show you how to race tune your old tjet,magnatraction,afx,etc...have fun!


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## afxgns

BigMike said:


> Man do I appreciate this thread. I'm getting back into the hobby after a long time away. I have never raced competitively but did have regular races with my dad and Brothers back when I was still in high school. Our cars came to resemble the fray cars with the extended axles and aftermarket tires we used. I had them all till about ten years ago when a flood destroyed everything. My favorite car was a 69 AMX with the setup like I mentioned. Dad had a Cougar and my brothers had a camaro and mustang. I want to get some cars set up to run smoothly and as equally as possible as my daughter and new son in law would like to race with me once in a while.
> 
> Long winded but I do have a couple of questions. First are these cars more smooth accelerating and braking and do you run brakes on them? Guess that was two but one more question is what controller specs would best match these cars again for smooth acceleration etc.?
> 
> I'll post a pic of the layout I plan to build later. Just a home track but I want it to be fun for the kids. BTW Mandi my daughter did spend hours running cars I bought later when she was about 8 and she loved to bump me off the track on the corners. It will not be made as easy as it was back then.
> 
> Mike


Lot's more stuff is available now thru mail order. Just look around and start setting up a favorites page for the stuff.
Controllers are very important for a newbee to get the feel. Try the Parma 90 ohm for starters. You won't need brakes for your layouts for now. And be prepared to spend $ and have a good time!:wave:


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## BigMike

Sounds good. I've been doing just that. I still like the Tjets best and that is why this interested me. I remember some of our cars were much better than others. The tuning makes sense.

My little AMX was lightened and tweeked as much as I knew how. Got some stuff from Auto World back then and the slicks I picked up along with speed secrets I found somewhere made us lighten everything to the limit. No windows cooling holes in the hood. no bumpers. Just loved to slide them around. I had aluminum wheels all the way around the AMX with silicones in the back and orings in the front. both the front and rear wheels were drilled to lighten them. Tried a brass pan but it didn't help. 

It just sounds like the kind of tinkering I like to do to set these cars up.


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## slotnewbie69

that tinkering makes a huge difference.my first tjet was a standard nos,red/grey armature,and the black magnets with a white stripe...it ran like a pile!so began my quest for tuning tips!i ended up doing alot to it,everything short of balancing the arm.(i only do fun races)here's what i do to mine
jl notched brushes
jl blue/white magnets
true wheels/tires
oil in all the right places(not too much!)
wirebrush all electrical contacts with dremel at low speed
adjust pickup shoes to rest flat on rails of track
polish comm plate
tweak brush springs(again,not too much)to improve contact to comm plate
gently ream axle bearing points(if necessary)
wire brush gearplate with dremel,keeping gears oiled during the process,to remove any burrs on the gears..check,brush again,get into all the teeth here,the goal is not to get everything spinning at a million miles an hour
and i guess thats about it!
also make sure your axles are nice and straight!:thumbsup:


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## shipsgunner

afxgns said:


> Hell Roger, I can't even remember my name sometimes. They are THE choice when it comes to t-jet shoes. I just assume that folks know them and they don't need to be mentioned.
> 
> And how would you know of such a thing, Braids and Bianchis and all? You don't happen to own a Bianchi do you?


He has one..lollol


----------



## shipsgunner

slotnewbie69 said:


> so i should keep my tjets in little baggies and assemble them prior to a race?or just insert the brushes beforehand to prevent spring wear?i think bill's idea is the best.leave well enough alone!don't over oil,and you won't have to over clean,yadayada....


Actually, that isnt a bad idea but you would need some dessicant in the bag (little bag that comes in coffe to keep moisture absorbed...) in the ziplock.. this will help prevent any oxidation commensurate with moisture in the air when sealed....


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## slotnewbie69

shipsgunner said:


> Actually, that isnt a bad idea but you would need some dessicant in the bag (little bag that comes in coffe to keep moisture absorbed...) in the ziplock.. this will help prevent any oxidation commensurate with moisture in the air when sealed....


hahahahahahahahah!i will go get some silica gel today!


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## bearsox

deserves a big bump !


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## smalltime

I've given AFXGNS the heave ho, so to speak. 
I'll be goin' by the regular "smalltime" from now on.


Just to get you all thinkin'
If you could change ONE Fray rule........What would it be and why.


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## bearsox

*Hey Tim ,
glad your back to your original handle as i have allways liked it best. As for changes in fray hummmmmmm...... well not a rule per se but i would prefer that all tires both front and rear be under the body ( lets get em looking like a car again ) . So that would say the current rules regarding both front and rear setups would be pitched and reworked . How's that for a start ? *

Later , Dennis :thumbsup:


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## twolff

What Dennis said. You could even widen the bodies, just get the tires and wheeels under the body. Or go to only open wheel body styles.


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## smalltime

bearsox said:


> *Hey Tim ,
> glad your back to your original handle as i have allways liked it best. As for changes in fray hummmmmmm...... well not a rule per se but i would prefer that all tires both front and rear be under the body ( lets get em looking like a car again ) . So that would say the current rules regarding both front and rear setups would be pitched and reworked . How's that for a start ? *
> 
> Later , Dennis :thumbsup:


The first rule set I saw (2000) stated any hard body. There were many teams using wide bodies and mounting screw posts in them. I do miss that.


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## Brixmix

I would say to make the cars more of a spec car. Like when all the teams get there to the fray they get a front ends with spec front tires and spec slip-on tires and wheels. I think it would save teams a lot of money that don't make there tires and let those team be more on the same planning field with the better elite teams.I still think the elite teams will still rise to the top but I think they will have to work a little harder to get those wins and that makes the bottom dwellers feel a little better about spending all that money to make the week long trip.

Travis


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## wheelszk

I have to agree with twolff, wider bodies, get the wheels under the car.
Bill


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## smalltime

OK let me restate the question:
What rule changes would it take to get you to go to the Fray?


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## wheelszk

Well we have our version of it on the East Coast and we follow your rules, so why go to Calif. Not trying to be smart but most of us race for fun.You guys that race the fray are pretty intense, so I have heard. This is my opinion only.
P.S. I have learned a lot from your post here and I do thank you.
Bill


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## smalltime

Brixmix said:


> I would say to make the cars more of a spec car. Like when all the teams get there to the fray they get a front ends with spec front tires and spec slip-on tires and wheels. I think it would save teams a lot of money that don't make there tires and let those team be more on the same planning field with the better elite teams.I still think the elite teams will still rise to the top but I think they will have to work a little harder to get those wins and that makes the bottom dwellers feel a little better about spending all that money to make the week long trip.
> 
> Travis


I would love to have the REAR tires be spec. And the fronts be spec sized. If enough of you relay this stuff to the Ricks, you never know what would happen.


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## Brixmix

Tim I don't think the rules as they are, are keeping me away from the fray it the time of the year and the money it cost to make the trip. I by no means am an elite driver or builder I'm at best a fill in driver and a ok tuner, but I would like to make the trip one time to race those tracks and see some of the people I only see once a year.


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## smalltime

Brixmix said:


> Tim I don't think the rules as they are, are keeping me away from the fray it the time of the year and the money it cost to make the trip. I by no means am an elite driver or builder I'm at best a fill in driver and a ok tuner, but I would like to make the trip one time to race those tracks and see some of the people I only see once a year.


I do understand about the $ thing.

But I also want to let you know that you are a great racer and tuner, and would be a fine addition to ANY team. You came down to the KC area and ran with and beat the best of 'em.

But the main reason I return to The Fray is to see Ferndale. I love the place and I really think I will retire there. So I need to pick out my house. (they tore down the one I had my eye on).
If you have never been to northern Ca. you need to go, at least once.


----------



## bearsox

smalltime said:


> But the main reason I return to The Fray is to see Ferndale. I love the place and I really think I will retire there. So I need to pick out my house. (they tore down the one I had my eye on).
> If you have never been to northern Ca. you need to go, at least once.


*Hey Tim ,
i agree the area is an awesome place to enjoy. I lived in the bay area twice. 1st in Vallejo ( north bay ) then a few years later in the south bay ( SanJose foothills ). Tons of stuff to do and the weather...... no snow unless you want to Trek ( no pun ) to higher elevation in mountains ! Oddly enough being in the area it was before the fray ever got going and i was out of slots and into fishing tourneys ( Red man circuit ). So i spent all my weekends chasing bass up and down California instead of chasing tiny cars . My wife is also from Fairfield in northern CA so when she's ready to retire there's a chance we will end up out that way if not in some other warm place.

Dennis :wave:*


----------



## smalltime

OK enough of the lovefest........No offense intended Dennis.

What new products are you all using that are/aren't working?

The new lighter Wizzard shoes are a big hit around here. 

Has anyone tried the Kniffen front end set?

Does anyone miss the BSRT shoes?


----------



## Brixmix

Tim 
I KNOW the BSRT shoes will be missed I still have 6 or 7 pairs left and really don't race Fray cars near as much as you you guys do so they last me longer. The new Wizzard shoes are much nicer but on some track the BSRT still make more power. Its the same for Slottechs they work real well to but on on certain track the BSRT are better.

The Zoomin front end is REAL nice and works very well. I know people have been taken his weights and modifing then to run different from wheel so changing tire size is easier. I personally you them on most of my Fray style cars. He makes two style one has rubber tires and the other uses O-rings. 

I think the big thing with these cars is the rear tires. Some tires work well on this track but don't on that track. It like real racing you need a stock pile of tires if you race in a lot of different place that prepare there tracks different and have different climate. Thats why I think a spec tires is the way to go as far as cost saving and everyone is on the same plane ( as fare as tires go)


----------



## bearsox

*Well how far should spec go ? Rears , fronts , shoes , brushes , crowns , bodies etc ? Just curious as to where the line is drawn ? I also wonder what that would do to pricing ? For if you spec things out to the point you have one product and vendor supplying say all crowns... i just wonder about costs ? Could be an interesting scenario. BTW last winter i was approach with the idea of making such a tire for three of the major race conductors ( fray , Quarrel , Echorr ). I basically told them to see what others thought while at the fray. They at 1st said it would likely pass but then after more discussions it failed to take. When i was told that's what happened i felt relief. After thinking about it i would have turned it down anyway.

Dennis :wave:*


----------



## Brixmix

I would say in my opinion just the front and rear tires should be spec. as far as the vendor I would say who ever steps up to the plate and makes the best produce ( put the time in to test) gets the bid. The price would have to be fair or the racing sanction would not let them be the spec wheels and tires


----------



## smalltime

Hey Dennis,
This is how I look at it:

If you mandate a rear tire, this provides ALL the grip for the car. 

If the tire has a limit on grip (it slides around a little) you have now placed a limit on the cornering speed and acceleration of the car. This would tend to limit the usefull h.p. of the car. In turn, this would level the playing field. (more motors and chassis settups would be competitive) 

I understand your question, but I really think that the rear tire thing would render the fancy fronts and crazy bodies obsolete (sp)

Slip ons also tend to really like short wheelbase t-jets

And just so you know that I've been thinking of this for a while, my idea for the procedure would be as follows:
Find a tire manufacturer that will supply tire for a given event.

Publish that manufacturer in the rules, along with a way to get practice tires for your team.

When you get to the event, your team is issued tires for your cars on the day of the event, and they are of a different color than the practice tires. Otherwise they are identicle.
(this eliminates most of the tire doping that will happen when folks can take them home)

The manufacturer not only sells tires for the race, they sell all of the practice tires also.


----------



## Brixmix

Well said I conquer


----------



## bearsox

smalltime said:


> Hey Dennis,
> 
> When you get to the event, your team is issued tires for your cars on the day of the event, and they are of a different color than the practice tires. Otherwise they are identicle.
> (this eliminates most of the tire doping that will happen when folks can take them home)
> 
> The manufacturer not only sells tires for the race, they sell all of the practice tires also.


*Hey Tim ,
i like the premis on the tires and it likely would work anyway but that said i should point out something for you. The color change would also change how the tires react / handle . Any time you displace part of the silicone with colorant the compound is changed and the tires will react different. Example is .... i sell white , black , orange , blue , red , and yellow .360 slipons. Each color handles a tad different due to the colorant mixed. The black and the white are sized the same BUT... the whites are the prefered tires due to how they handle for most racers. Same holds true for the white vs red or orange vs yellow etc. The only suggestion i would offer is to use white as the race tires and any other as the practice tires ? I just wonder how guys may react if they had all kinds of lap work on a given tire and then had the rug pulled with another even if the tire is a better tire ? Don't have an answer but gotta wonder just the same.

Dennis :wave: *


----------



## smalltime

bearsox said:


> *Hey Tim ,
> i like the premis on the tires and it likely would work anyway but that said i should point out something for you. The color change would also change how the tires react / handle . Any time you displace part of the silicone with colorant the compound is changed and the tires will react different. Example is .... i sell white , black , orange , blue , red , and yellow .360 slipons. Each color handles a tad different due to the colorant mixed. The black and the white are sized the same BUT... the whites are the prefered tires due to how they handle for most racers. Same holds true for the white vs red or orange vs yellow etc. The only suggestion i would offer is to use white as the race tires and any other as the practice tires ? I just wonder how guys may react if they had all kinds of lap work on a given tire and then had the rug pulled with another even if the tire is a better tire ? Don't have an answer but gotta wonder just the same.
> 
> Dennis :wave: *



Oh they would hate it, but they would do it for the Fray (I think)

You need to find a way to mark the race tires so you KNOW they are the ones given out, or this won't work. There are too many ner-do-wells out there who will dope the tires. 
Maybe a dot or a mark on the sidewall? I can also tell you now that Phillis will want black tires.He HATES the colored tires.

I think this is all moot anyway, Machado will never give in to the spec tire thing. I've hounded them for years on it. What needs to happen is NITRO needs to host a big bang up team race and show the world this can work. Nitro has a great set of rules.


----------



## Brixmix

Tim
I agree with you on the rules that Nitro has I have see the RTHO has a new wheel and tire combo out that is more Fray freindly. if he can get his tires to be a little less bittie so they don't pick up dirt as bad he might have something. 

As for NITRO holding a big race I really dought that will ever happen there is way to many hurt feelings for those guys to pull something like that off. There is really only about 6 core racers, Beside half of the guys HATE slip-ons. There might be enough NITRO races to make one Team. But I really do like the concept.


----------



## fsmra

*Great in theory only*

Great in theory only. You can't tech for a spec tire - so why change the rule. I agree that something should be done with tires but slip-ons got shot down last year for 2010 so... If you find a single manufacturer that would be willing to make your spec foam tire, (1) you will alienate all other manufacturers, (2) you would damage the home grown industry for foam tires (3) you can't tech it - because if you spec'd a manufacturer and forced a color to "prove the spec" all that will happen is that the other manufacturers will use the same foam or same color (dye) and make the same "looking" tire - so while great in theory - not practical.

If you could get slip-on tires approved it would certainly lower cost - and may to some degree help level the playing field, but even if you were able to pull off this unlikely miracle for the major team events - someone would develop new technologies to alter history anyway trying to find the elusive advantage. Not to mention you would have created a new issue with the hot tire dope of the day/week/event. You can't tech for that either so again, great in theory but difficult or impossible to tech. Although I would admit that doping is cheaper than number of foam tires required to practice/race with for a team event. Also those "newer" high tech parts that already exist would either (1) still work or (2) be modified and probably approved for use so I don't think that is a solution either.

While I agree that the cost of "Fray" style racing is somewhat "out of control", I have yet to see or hear a practical solution to the issue. I am however open to any solution or idea you may have.

IMHO

Mike Block


----------



## smalltime

Shure you could tech the tires, if you're handing them out on race morning.

A spec foamy defeats the purpose, it would be too expensive.

As far as new technology, they reject it all the time now. No arms, no weights, no plastic idlers.

As for the doping thing, I know this is a problem. All I can say is, if you suspect doping, hand them a new set of tires, and take the old ones.

I know you are passionate(sp) about this Mike, You moved the bar with the idler thing this year,and I commend you for that. I want to thank you for being part of this discusion.


----------



## fsmra

Tim

You're one of the passionate ones as well, I truly respect your thoughts on this. I just don't see this as being practical for (handing out tire et al) mostly for the amount of time required to make the change for 15 team cars each or so. And if suspected making the change is fine but again its a time waster unless you have a way to make snap in axles readily available and long lasting.

I agree that something needs to be done, I just haven't come up with or seen the "best idea". Slip ons are a potential solution but I think it would difficult or impossible to legalize for "ALL" team Fray style races. It was offered up last year when there was a healthy discussion at the "Fling" but there was just TOO much resistance to the idea. I can't state specific reasons but it was just not in the cards.

Now with the added cost of expensive travel - racing costs should be limited to help - I haven't yet figured out how to do that yet (successfully)

Lets keep the thoughts flowing something may work out

Thanks again

Respectfully

Mike Block


----------



## brownie374

What do ya dope em with I want dopey tires!


----------



## smalltime

For starters you can try:
WD-40
pure silicone shock oil (for rc cars)
belt dressing
pvc pipe cleaner
rainX

that's just what I've heard about, I've NEVER done it, ya' understand.

there are a few things in that list that can harm track surfaces, so be carefull out there..........


----------



## bearsox

smalltime said:


> For starters you can try:
> WD-40
> pure silicone shock oil (for rc cars)
> belt dressing
> pvc pipe cleaner
> rainX
> 
> that's just what I've heard about, I've NEVER done it, ya' understand.
> 
> there are a few things in that list that can harm track surfaces, so be carefull out there..........


*Rain x ! Try it for recapping tires too ! Wiper treatment rejuvinates rubber so to speak . :freak:

Dennis *


----------



## fsmra

Tiger Milk (if you can find it)
RC tire treatment
Wintergreen Oil
Coleman fuel oil

and the list goes on and on

But I haven't tried them either



Mike


----------



## smalltime

Dennis,
You are a Guiness:thumbsup:


----------



## bearsox

smalltime said:


> Dennis,
> You are a Guiness:thumbsup:


ahh geez that would say pigs do fly ! LOL:freak:

Dennis


----------



## smalltime

Bumpin' it ti the top!

LMK what you need.


----------



## bearsox

*Tim ,
any new tips or even better pics to help with the wiz shoes ? I've had guys ask me about them and so i steer them here . That said they still can't quite get em done. Tips and pics brother tips and pics LOL ! Thanks !

Dennis :freak:*


----------



## brownie374

I cant do anything with them.My cars are faster with stock pickups.


----------



## bearsox

brownie374 said:


> I cant do anything with them.My cars are faster with stock pickups.




:freak:


----------



## bearsox

*Tim ,
i'm covered now and don't need the help.

Bear / Dennis :wave:*


----------



## mike39

*wizzard shoes*

wizzard has posted a nice article with pics at: www. sccbb.com under t-jets

Mike

found out if you don't type the www. it will take you to a differant site. sorry for any problems it caused

site name is SlotCar Center Bulletin Board, not much traffic but also has the fray tuning guide with pics.

Mike


----------



## martybauer31

Bump.... Why has this not been stickied?


----------



## LDThomas

Bump for joegri...


----------



## bearsox

should be a sticky :thumbsup:

Bear


----------



## LDThomas

Agreed, should be a sticky...


----------



## wheelszk

Should be a sticky:thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------



## slotcarman12078

Did any of you guys send a PM to the Hankster?? He can't read all the posts on here!! :lol:


----------



## joegri

i dont know what stickey means ? so i,m gonna go along with what u guys say !


----------



## Bill Hall

Rather than a sticky....sticky this sticky that...ya know?

Why not make it a subforum within tuning???

IMHO I think the topic warrants it.


----------



## partspig

Sorry to let you guys know but the SCCBB board has been gone for a while now. That is, unless they moved it to another server with a new URL.


----------



## bearsox

partspig said:


> Sorry to let you guys know but the SCCBB board has been gone for a while now. That is, unless they moved it to another server with a new URL.


Ok I'll bite and excuse my ignorance but what is the SCCBB ? Does it have to do with Fray car tuning ? SCCA racing ? I guess if it's gone i missed it completely but just the same i'm curious.

Bear :wave:


----------



## smalltime

I probably linked to it in the middle of the article.

I really should redo the whole thing and include pics and maybe even a video or two huh?

Maybe Bill will help with that one:wave:


----------



## bearsox

smalltime said:


> I probably linked to it in the middle of the article.
> 
> I really should redo the whole thing and include pics and maybe even a video or two huh?
> 
> Maybe Bill will help with that one:wave:


*Dude .... pics and video in living COLOR ? sign me up to watch that channel ! Break out the camera and help out Billiam !

Bear :wave:*


----------



## joegri

evenin fellas i just had to back and read fray car tuning again.just when ya think ya know how to ya realize ya don,t know anything. tuning yer lil cars to get the most hp and to make,em handle are what makes this hobby so much fun.for the guys that hav,nt read this you really should,it has helped me to no end.i have never raced 1 lap but, that does,nt mean i dont want a fast jet.this was burried 5 pages back and i thought that it deserves a front page! cuz i had a day off today and it was kinda cold i got a lg honkin coffee and sat back and read it.so go ahead tjet boys read on and enjoy!!!


----------



## alpink

bump, bump, bump


----------



## alpink

bump up for obvious reasons


----------



## Dyno Dom

Thanks for the reminder Al! :thumbsup:
I should have reviewed this thread before my run yesterday.


----------



## Dyno

Dyno Dom said:


> Thanks for the reminder Al! :thumbsup:
> I should have reviewed this thread before my run yesterday.


LOL...Probably, regardless of that, Dave still hooked you up, just change the rear tires and it will probably be even better :thumbsup:


----------



## MINIFREAK

*chassis boiling*

When attempting to build a Fray chassis, is it better to search for a perfectly straight chassis that doesn't need boiling? Or is it better to boil a chassis even if it is straight? Thanks.


----------



## Brixmix

Its always better to start with a straight chassis than having to boil a chassis straight


----------



## MINIFREAK

Brixmix said:


> Its always better to start with a straight chassis than having to boil a chassis straight


Thanks. Now that we have that out of the way...should I avoid boiling a straight chassis or are there benefits?


----------



## alpink

I don't think there is any advantage to boiling a good straight chassis. 
if it has any use, put it in an utra-sonic cleaner bath and get all the dirt out of the electrics.


----------



## slotking

the only other reason would be to soften up the chassis.
but boiled or not, it still stiff!
so no.

I have also had some boiled chassis go back to not being straight


----------



## Mexkilbee

what do you "boil" a chassis in? do you boil it in water? or oil? what temp. of liquid is required for softening up the chassis?


----------



## slotking

Most do it in water, I have also tried oil

I no longer boil, I look for straight chassis.
if it is a hair off, i use a bigger tire where i need it


----------



## joegri

*chassis building season*

it,s been awhile since i read the good book on tjets and now that slots are back in my mind i have to read this agin for the umpteenth time !! i believe that it,s been said before " this should be a page topper/stickey it is a must read. now after squirreling parts away all summer i gotta build something. so first on the bench is gonna be a skinney tire tjet powered by a 16 ohm yellowjacket armature. but to get me in the mood i,m reading from the start!


----------



## slotking

I just added new vids on the tips site,
will see how well they transfer here


----------



## bearsox

Bump back to the beginning ! 
http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=197364


----------



## smalltime

There's been ALLOT of water under the bridge since I undertook this project.

Hell my screen name has even changed.

I will endeavor to update this in the the next couple of months. I am going to the Fray this year, so my time is pretty full right now, but I promise to get started on the re-write.

Thanks for the bump,
Tim Leppert.
AKA smalltime.


----------



## bearsox

smalltime said:


> There's been ALLOT of water under the bridge since I undertook this project.
> 
> Hell my screen name has even changed.
> 
> I will endeavor to update this in the the next couple of months. I am going to the Fray this year, so my time is pretty full right now, but I promise to get started on the re-write.
> 
> Thanks for the bump,
> Tim Leppert.
> AKA smalltime.


*Ageless in it's beauty like my wife Tim and both deserve the occasional bump ! LOL !
Bear:wave: *


----------



## Hornet

Bringing back up to the top.


----------



## smalltime

bearsox said:


> *Ageless in it's beauty like my wife Tim and both deserve the occasional bump ! LOL !
> Bear:wave: *


Well....Um.....Thanks there Bear....I think.

Bumpin' right back at ya'


----------



## SDMedanic

*Pickup shoe block*

Looking at getting a Scale Engineering pickup setup block. Wondering what rail heights to get. There is one from say .008" to .011" and one from 0.012" to 0.015" any thoughts on which one is best?


----------



## LDThomas

Mine is .012" / .014" / .016" / .018" and it works great. I would expect the .012" to .015" model to best fit the tracks you run on.


----------



## SDMedanic

LDThomas said:


> Mine is .012" / .014" / .016" / .018" and it works great. I would expect the .012" to .015" model to best fit the tracks you run on.


Thanks Larry!

Just contacted Mark and sent the order. 

Steve


----------



## smalltime

SDMedanic said:


> Looking at getting a Scale Engineering pickup setup block. Wondering what rail heights to get. There is one from say .008" to .011" and one from 0.012" to 0.015" any thoughts on which one is best?


I'm thinking that one^ is perfect.

The one I have is .012,.014,.016,.018. I would LOVE to have one around .009/.011......But I do know a pretty decent machinist.


----------



## brownie374

I tune my shoes to the .014 hieght


----------



## slotking

with so many different rails heights on various tracks, i mic the track rails (at various locations) and set my shoe travel to the lowest height.


----------



## Rich Dumas

If you go here: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/HOCOCSLOTCARRACING/info and look in the Files section you will find an article on tuning T-Jets that you may find useful. You might have to sign up to see the files.


----------



## Bubba 123

slotking said:


> with so many different rails heights on various tracks, i mic the track rails (at various locations) and set my shoe travel to the lowest height.


"IF" I ever make it 2 a Fray race, can the folks there do the w/in specs adjustments 4 me??? yes I have Fray chassis/bods...
TY...
Arthritic "Ol Fart"

Bubba 123 :wave:

again Rich, Great info!! :thumbsup:


----------



## slotking

i do have a couple shoe setup tip videos on the video library site.
at lest maybe 2


----------



## Bubba 123

slotking said:


> i do have a couple shoe setup tip videos on the video library site.
> at lest maybe 2


links ???

Bubba :thumbsup:


----------



## beast1624

Here's his general Fray build vedeos
http://www.ho-tips.net/showthread.php?tid=1810

I think this is the one he's talking about on the shoes
http://www.ho-tips.net/showthread.php?tid=2040


----------



## rholmesr

I have the scale engineering shoe set block with 012 - 015. If you need to go smaller its ez. Knowing that scotch tape is about 002" thick, if you put a single thickness on the block where the wheels go you can convert a 013 tall pad to 011 tall effective height.

Most of the time i set for 012 tall and that seems to work pretty good.


----------



## slotking

http://ho-tips.net/showthread.php?tid=1784

shoe travel and tension are big keys on handling of any slot car


----------



## Rich Dumas

*Updated T-Jet Tuning Article*

Here is another article on tuning T-Jets: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzLR42NthGeCaDVSOEhLOVRybkE/view?usp=sharing
Note that there are clickable links included.
There are also other similar articles on tuning JL/AW ThunderJet 500s, T-Dash and Magnatraction/X-Traction cars.


----------



## rholmesr

This is a great thread. I had an hour of free time and just read thru the whole thing again.

I don’t think actual fitting of magnets in the chassis was brought up in this thread before beyond maybe a brief mention or two.

Tight magnets can tweak the chassis and really hurt the handling of a car. I have seen some guys that have the magnets jammed in so tight that it is hard to get them out - that can't be good - having them that tight could even spread the chassis out and make the top plate fit all weird. I have come to the conclusion that for best / most consistent performance the magnets should push in with very little force or even just drop in.

Sand your dash magnets until they can push in with some force, then slowly sand a little and trial fit until they go in nice and easy. Best not to make them overly loose though – but if they do get a little too loose, most rules (Fray in Ferndale included) will allow shims behind the magnet as long as they are plastic type – BUT you have to make sure you still meet the .700” minimum magnet gap.

Ron


----------



## slotking

they are t-jets! So nothing is normal!! LOL
I have had cars where the tight magnets help the car!!

I do not have videos of that :-( but maybe once I get a place to live, I can start
making more videos for the video library.


----------



## Mexkilbee

Wow! This thread is almost ten years old and just as useful as it was when it was started. However, the cars I built ten years ago that where guarenteed to get on the podium, wouldn't make it past qualifying today. My cars from five years ago that won races wouldn't make the podium today. A lot has changed. Or I should say the bar has gotten very high. 
I have seen some pictures of the Fray and Ohio cup winning cars. I also just hosted a Saturday race and a few guys that competed in those races attended and what they had to say about it scares me from going to a "big" race now. They all smashed my track records (they had set them a few years ago), and stated the cars that they used to do this where junk compared to the compitition at the other races. 
A lot of speculation that the winning arms where rewinds (wires where just to flat, neat and tidy to be stock), and the shoes, the shoes! You either have them figured out or your last. 
A lot of racers slapping their fro wondering where all the speed and handling has come from. Every year the bar gets set higher, a lot of good/great builders are dumbfounded as to how some are clearing it. 
Anyone able to refresh the info on this thread regarding armatures and shoes? Especially shoes and shoe setup? I know a lot of it has to do with the new scales for shoe spring tension, force meters... Anybody willing to share spring tension measurements? Com spring measurements ?


----------



## Milton Fox Racing

I am still learning about slot cars and this section, but I will ask -

Has this thread lost its relevance then? Should it be unstickied then?

Is there another thread that can take its place? If not - does anyone want to create one?

Let KITT or I (MFR) know about any other threads or sections that needs some clean up / updating and we can take care of those needs for you!


----------



## Rich Dumas

T-Jets are still very popular, I suspect that as people get older their fascination with modern high performance HO cars starts to fade. A good T-Jet Fray/SS car can turn my track in 5.4 seconds. I was testing a Wizzard Storm SS the other day and I got that down to 2.455 seconds. I have not raced that sort of car in quite some time, I am not sure what would happen if there were three other cars on the track at the same time.
In any case here is an updated copy of my T-Jet tuning article: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzLR42NthGeCaUFGVVhlQnV4eTQ/view?usp=sharing


----------



## Mexkilbee

This thread is still viable information. Still great for the new guy, and as a refresher course for old dogs.


----------



## alpink

woof, woof


----------



## Rondo1234560

Hi Mex. I used to be rholmesr (a few spots down in this thread).

If you could do me a favor, please provide some detail on the accusation that the arms at the fray and ohio cup might have been suspect. As a guy who was on the winning fray team and on the podium at the ohio cup, you have truly piqued my interest.

Thanks,
Ron S.


----------



## Smalltime20

Rondo1234560 said:


> Hi Mex. I used to be rholmesr (a few spots down in this thread).
> 
> If you could do me a favor, please provide some detail on the accusation that the arms at the fray and ohio cup might have been suspect. As a guy who was on the winning fray team and on the podium at the ohio cup, you have truly piqued my interest.
> 
> Thanks,
> Ron S.


I would call it speculation, not accusation.

To be competitive at these big races, you must live and breath T-Jets.

The top teams, not only have great drivers, but their chassis programs are top shelf. Lots of sorting arms, balancing, truing, commutator plate truing, and shaft inspection, or you purchase a number of dynamiclly balanced armatures from a reputable shop.

I really don't think there are rewinds being used by any top team/drivers. If they were caught with illegal stuff, it would result in pariah status for that person/team.

I know many of these folks personally, None of them would cheat to win.

All of them take the rules to brink, but that is their job.

I personally think there are a few things that could be done to make it easier to compete at this level:

#1 Allow 9,12,and 14 tooth pinion gears to be used. this will bring MANY more arms into competition.

#2 Do something about the tires. If you don't spend ALLOT of money on tires, you're at a BIG disadvantage.

#3 Come up with a magnet tech that limits downforce to realistic levels. And doesn't require a team/driver to buy a Gauss meter.

That's only my opinion. 
Your mileage may vary.

smalltime
AKA Tim Leppert
2014, 2015 KC Fray team captain.


----------



## Rondo1234560

You make a lot of good points, Tim. And he did use the term 'speculation' so I misquoted. My bad.

A few thoughts...

The setup of pickup shoes is absolutely critical. I have seen so many cars not performing up to snuff with shoes that were not properly restricted, not flat, or running way back on the heel. Ten minutes of work and the car is light years from where it was. All of a sudden it is faster down the straights and no longer annoyingly does a wheelie and popping out coming out of the corners. I worked on a LOT of shoes at the Ohio Cup.

Many racers seem to think that the key to speed is in the armature, and specifically in how the arm was wound. Sure, that is at least somewhat important but there are so many other things in the mix to getting a top contending car. Comm flat and clean, Shoe setup, gear setup and mesh, tires that are round, brush tension right, all four tires touching the track. Mags that are reasonably matched and not so tight that they tweak the hell out of the chassis. Body fitment. Brushes that are not all worn out or oily. General housecleaning to keep the critical comm/brush interface nice and clean. Heck, even the guide pin if it is worn out or bent can degrade the handling. All of these things are important.

One thing that continues to baffle me but I have learned to live with is how the arm and the chassis have to get along with each other for good performance. Take a good arm out of one car and put it in another and it runs like a turd, but a different arm in that car runs great. When building a new fray car I have several arms at the ready and pick the one that runs the smoothest IN THAT CAR.

You are right that a lot of the top builders live and breathe this stuff. Many hours are spent in initial build of a car and then often times further tweaks are needed first time or two at the track to optimize it.

To the guys coming up thru the ranks: you gotta ask questions at the races. Learn from the guys that are fast. By and large, they will answer questions and show you things to help get you better as a builder or driver. After all, that is what we all want... if everybody is fast then the race is more challenging. And more fun!

Of course, having a good car is only half of the total picture and a fast car alone does not mean you will do well at the race. You still have to drive it. Practice, practice, practice. Master driving the gutter lanes...if you can do well there then the mid lanes ought to be easier. Run and practice against drivers that are better than you if you can. Learn where they are making up the time. Observe how they are driving the difficult sections of the layout. Is he blipping that little straight? Is he actually driving the esses in the gutter lane or just holding a constant speed? What type of controller is he using and might that be a better match for me than what I have?

Ron S


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## Mexkilbee

Of the ten racers that came to my race after the Ohio cup, two attended. The others had spoken to others from the east coast that had attended. They didn't acuse anybody of cheating, just made the comments that their arms where "tight". Not a misplaced wire to be had. The lams where perfect, the com plates and solder was perfect as if there was some shady shit going on with them. I guess that does sound kind of accusatory. LoL. Other than the two that attended the other eight chiming in had gotten their info second hand from the East Coast guys.
And they too, or the conversation also was about the shoes and comm/brush springs also. Basically this is the jist of the conversation they had. Some people have it figured out, to bad for you if you don't. (That's what I got from the conversation, and also this is more important than the arm, or mags, or tire size...). Basic track gossip. I threw it up on here to see if is true, or not. And also get some info on it in general. Especially the shoe spring tension. But so far I haven't found anybody that wants to share their baseline, or race setup. I know the setup is different for every track....


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## Rich Dumas

In my opinion people that have been in the hobby for a long time usually have a stash of good armatures that are not always available to new racers. Just a good armature is not going to win races, the rest of the car must be optimized as well.
I got back into pancake cars in 2000, all of the cars that I had back in the '60s had been stolen, so I had to start from scratch. I bought some NOS rolling chassis and aftermarket parts, but the cars seemed to be slow. I thought that perhaps my memory was not serving me well. The track that I raced on in the '60s had a 17 foot straight and many of my cars were accelerating most of the way down that. All of my cars had the 9 tooth drive pinion switched to a 14 tooth. 
I bought a couple of worked up cars from a decent builder, they handled well, but were not as fast in a straight line as my old cars were. I also bought worked up arms from several makers, but those were not much faster. During races I was doing OK in the corners, but I was mostly getting gobbled up on the straights. Over the years my tuning skills improved, but I still did not have first class cars. Eventually I was able to buy a very fast car and see what parts were used. Using the same parts and those tuning skills I was able to build cars that are just as fast.
Getting back to armatures, most of what is available now is junk. You can work up junk armatures and at least make them better, but it is not likely that you will win a race with one unless you race against inexperienced people.


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## Smalltime20

Mexkilbee said:


> I threw it up on here to see if is true, or not. And also get some info on it in general. Especially the shoe spring tension. But so far I haven't found anybody that wants to share their baseline, or race setup. I know the setup is different for every track....


I'll tell you EXACTLY what I do.

I have a Dave Lockwood shoe tension gauge,and I use it often.

At big T-Jet races, the rails get super burnished after about a day of practice, I usually start with 2.7-2.9 grams per side, adjusting for flatness, and limiting travel to very slight movement on a flat surface.

As the day(s) go on, the rails will get better and better and you can adjust your tension lighter and lighter. At the Fray, I've NEVER run a shoe more than 1.6 on Saturday. That's how good the rails get. 

Get good at small tension adjustments. If a shoe is getting black, change brands. And remember, stock shoes work well, if you flat sand them. 

Hope this helps


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## Rich Dumas

Thanks for your reply, I have your recommendations saved. Is there a source for the Lockwood tension gauge?
I would have thought that at a major race like the Fray that the rails would be burnished before the racing even started. When there is a race on my track the rails get polished and the track is perfectly clean.
I have raced on tracks that were not prepared and the people in the earlier heats had a handicap.


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## Rondo1234560

Hi Mex. Here ya go.

Shoe setup:
First ensure the shoe is flat and is sitting properly on the scaleengineering or rtho shoe-setting block to make sure it is riding flat on track and is not twisted, heel-heavy or toe-heavy. Adjust shoe as necessary until it is sitting properly on the block. Select height of the shoe block based upon the rail height of the track you intend to run on. I generally use .012" height but there are exceptions to that rule. 

Make sure that the shoe is not hanging up in the shoe retainer or on the chassis front retainer post - this should be done whenever you put on a new shoe just to make sure you do not get a false tension reading. Also make sure that the chassis shoe hanger is not loose. If it is loose then your shoe setup will not remain consistent - carefully peen the rivet if the shoe hanger is loose.

I use a force gauge applied at the tip of the shoe to determine spring tension force. With car upside down, push with the force gauge to move the shoe to be approximately the height where the rails would place it. My base setup is about 2.3g on the driver side shoe and about 2g on the pass side shoe. If conditions permit, less tension is going to help with handling, but too low of tension and shoes will arc and speed/punch will be reduced or will be inconsistent. Shoe tension can also be increased for better speed/punch if necessary - Dirty tracks, inconsistent rail height, etc. sometimes require a little more shoe tension to best navigate.

There are other meters and gauges that can be used and as long as readings are consistent, you can obtain what you feel is an optimal setup using whatever gauge you prefer to use. Just keep in mind that force readings will vary depending on what sort of gauge you use and where it is measuring. For example, the VRP gauge works very well and it measures at the CENTER of the shoe, not at the tip. So it will give a higher reading for the same amount of tension due to the fact that it is reading closer to the location of the spring. So for example, I might read 2.3 grams with my force gauge at the tip but you might read the same shoe as 3 grams at middle of the shoe. It's all well and good - just use the tool consistently and you will arrive at a reading and method that you best prefer.

I generally set the shoe travel such that the shoe is just touching down on a flat block - so that means that the shoe travel is approximately the same as the rail height. This can also be altered -- If the track has very consistent rails, shoe travel can be reduced which will moderately improve the handling. If rails are all over the place or there is a lot of camber in the track sometimes you need more travel to avoid sputtering.

To rephrase the opening paragraph, because this is very important: Shoe spring setup and shoe travel setup are totally meaningless if the shoes are actually running heel heavy. Always confirm shoes are flat and sitting properly before making adjustments to shoe tension or travel.


The other thing:
I think the speculation of arm tampering is untrue. I am pretty darn sure that the arms at the major events are on the up n up. 

Ron


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## alpink

wow, 

the guy said "there was speculation" and asked for some up to date advice.

the advice has been forthcoming and I applaud THAT.

the apparent 'reading into the speculation remark' response sounds a tad defensive, like someone feels accused.

I have no dog in this fray!
so maybe we can tone down the tone a tad?

.


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## Rondo1234560

alpink said:


> wow,
> 
> the guy said "there was speculation" and asked for some up to date advice.
> 
> the advice has been forthcoming and I applaud THAT.
> 
> the apparent 'reading into the speculation remark' response sounds a tad defensive, like someone feels accused.
> 
> I have no dog in this fray!
> so maybe we can tone down the tone a tad?
> 
> .


Okey dokey. Took yer suggestion and did some editing ?


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## Rich Dumas

The famous Henry Harnish has a set of four pairs of springs with different tensions. They are rather expensive at $16.50 a set but they may be helpful if you are trying to get a good handle on things. I don't run in big events where the condition of the rails will change with time, I use Dr. Oogan springs in all of my cars. If you are looking for more tension you can either stretch your springs a little or put shims under them. The shims may not be legal, but they a quick way of seeing if a little more tension will be useful when you don't have a set of graduated springs.


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## slotking

yeah, springs/shoes are interesting pain in the butt!
I used to race on 2 tko tracks, i track i could run 1.6, on the other i had to about 2.3.

I try to make sure front to back is flat as well as side to side.

I use the VRP spring tool because it not only does shoe tension but it does brush spring tension as well.


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## Boosted-Z71

While were talking about shoes one of the most important things about shoes and hangers is cleanliness, any oxidation or crud in the shoe hook or hanger will give you poor electrical performance. I always clean my stuff with a vinegar/water solution then a light scrub with a scoth brite pad as best as you can. I then use a DROP of Tri-Flo on the shoe hook where it sits in the hanger when I assemble it


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## Rich Dumas

I do the hook on the shoes from time to time using a Dremel with a wire brush attachment. The shoe hangers are harder to get at, I clean those with folded 1500 grit sand paper. There are also burnishing tools for cleaning electrical contacts that should work well for that application.


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## Johnson

slotking said:


> yeah, springs/shoes are interesting pain in the butt!
> I used to race on 2 tko tracks, i track i could run 1.6, on the other i had to about 2.3.
> 
> I try to make sure front to back is flat as well as side to side.
> 
> I use the VRP spring tool because it not only does shoe tension but it does *brush spring tension as well.*


How do you set the height back down to do the shoes? Should that screw not be set a rail height, like .012-.014"? What do you use to ensure the screw is set that low? I have one an want to ensure it's set correctly. Thanks


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## slotking

> How do you set the height back down to do the shoes? Should that screw not be set a rail height, like .012-.014"? What do you use to ensure the screw is set that low? I have one an want to ensure it's set correctly. Thanks


some folks will not move the screw, Others of 2 of the tools, 1 for shoes and 1 for brush springs.

I just use micrometer to set the screw to the rail height. If I was smart, I would simply write down how many turns for each rail height I want.

but yes, I screw the screw all the even with the bottom of the chassis per the VRP directions. Then I will do a group of chassis which will hold me for a whole. Then I screw it all the way down and then back up to the height I want using my MIC to checy the height,


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## Mexkilbee

Al, I knew I was sturing the pot a little posting "track gossip" , speculation, conjecture, unfounded rumor. I was and am pleasantly surprised over the backlash. Happy that offense was taken, rather than "oh, well, those guys..." Does my hart good.
I have been a member of several 1:1 race teams in a few classes of cars. And in the pits it was common knowledge, " If your winning, your cheating" "If you don't step over the line, how do you really know where the line is?" Sorry if I busted anyone's bubble. But even in the big leagues, NASCAR, F1, Indy Car, it happens. And the sectioning body knows it. Again sorry.
Over twenty years of slot car racing I have seen some shady things. A wire from a wire wheel shoe cleaner magically worked it's way behind a magnet, both magnets as a matter of fact. Dumb luck that it shimmed those magnets so nice (in a class where shimming was illegal.)
Dot magnets on the back of shoes, nail polish on the front wheels, front ends with just enough of a mushroom on the end of the axle to make it an independent front end. My favorite was the "pocket" car. Race an illegal car, come tech an exact copy of a legal car comes out of the pocket. Or vise versa. I have bought bodies from racers and swap meets, taken them apart to paint and found lead sheet stuffed behind the grill, headlights, or under the hood (Pontiac judge). 
I do not condone cheating, but I know people are people and competitive people sometimes become corrupt because the disire to win at all cost. (and the cost of attending a big event, in time and money, well, I wouldn't be surprised) (but am pleasantly surprised as stated earlier)
Like I said before, I do plan on traveling to some big events. I know my race program has suffered, and I am behind, but very glad to hear that most if not all are on the up, and up.


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## Mexkilbee

Thanks to all that shared their spring rates. my shoes are good to go, along with my shoe hangers/plates. I can get the swipe perfect front to back every time on any track (provided it isn't a banked track or a track with multiple elevation changes, but I do get them as good as anyone can). It was the spring rates that had me searching. The comm brush springs I have a grip on and can adjust for maximum torque or speed, depending on track. Just need to get back on the shoe springs and squeeze the extra hundredths of speed from them. Thanks again to everyone for sharing their numbers. 
Again I apologize for stirring the pot, my mouth is like my trigger finger, I know I should lift, but....
Also, again, glad that it ruffled some feathers and people took offense to it. Hard to explain in a post, so I'm lifting for the turn...


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## slotking

glad your moving in the right direction.

when I race, I do not care if people cheat, if they have to cheat to feel good about themselves, then I just assume they have mental issues like a lack of pride and or self confidence. But the enjoyment of beating them is nice as well


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## Rich Dumas

I went crazy and bought both a micrometer and a VRP gauge. I probably could have just used my certified calipers to set the screw height, but I had been lusting after a good digital micrometer for some time. It looks like 3 1/4 turns brings the screw to 0.018, which is the rail height for my MaxTrax. I did experiment a little with setting the screw a quarter of a turn low and that did not seem to affect the readings. All of the cars that I checked had their shoes adjusted to have their shoes riding flat both front to back and side to side. I do limit shoe travel, but I do not like to cut that too close. I had readings between 2.6 and 3.2 grams. I found that the Oogan springs vary a bit in strength, I swapped springs around to get 2.4-2.8 grams with the cars that I have done so far. The only track that I am likely to run on that has perfectly clean rails is my own. Most of my T-Jet SS cars have Anchor front ends, possibly a little extra shoe tension will not hurt. Oogan springs come on a loop of wire, so they do not get interlocked in the package. I put all of the high tension springs that I removed from the cars on their own loop, I may have to put those back at certain tracks.
I am guessing that you might also be able to alter the shoe tension by tinkering with the hook end of the shoe, no one has ever mentioned doing that, so I guess that I should experiment a little.
I should say that I hate to tinker with my cars at the track before an actual race. Most of the time I will have four cars for each class and I will run the one that seems to be best. If I get really desperate I might try an adjustment or two however.


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## slotking

> I am guessing that you might also be able to alter the shoe tension by tinkering with the hook end of the shoe, no one has ever mentioned doing that, so I guess that I should experiment a little.


I think I have a video of that in my video library at ho-tips.

I will look it up and PM the link to you if you are interested


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## Rich Dumas

I did experiment a little with altering the hook end of a pickup shoe. A tiny change in that area can alter the reading by a fair amount. For a particular car you might have an extra set of shoes to get a different amount of pressure. Those might be a little easier to manage than the springs if you need to make a change before a race. It was mentioned earlier that you need to take a number of readings of each shoe if you are using the VRP gauge. If the hook end of the shoe is not fully seated when you take a measurement your reading could be way off.


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## slotking

when bending the hook, you have to recheck if the shoe is still flat.
when you bend the hook, the angle of the shoe changes.

I used this method with great success for years until my eyesight has gone down and I found out what looked flat was not really flat. So some dollar store mag glasses fixed the SOFM issue I was having.


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## slotking

Here are the videos on youtube


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## Rich Dumas

I think that I have this right.


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## wheelszk

Hell ,i'm still having a hard time restricting my shoes.


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## slotking

heck, at 1 time I used the hook to restrict shoe travel because we could not bend the front of the shoe to restrict travel.


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## Rich Dumas

Here is the latest update of my T-jet tuning article: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzLR42NthGeCWlVzTmFFSlAxWjg/view?usp=sharing


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## wheelszk

That's a lot of info......Thanks


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