# The ultimate scratchbuilt!



## slotcar58

See the 7/15/11 9:30 am post. This car was built by Joel Pennington, former National Champion, with some motor technology from Pat Dennis, the developer of the original Tyco Pro. It was raced at the Brass Car demonstration race at the HOPRA Nats. The car was based on a similar design from the Tyco skunk works in the early 70's. The original car was featured in Car Model Magazine, but never released, since the price, at that time, would have been in the $8.00 to $12.00 range.

This is one beautiful piece of workmanship!

Planet of Speed posting:

http://www.planetofspeed.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5713&start=135


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## Rick Carter

Leo,

If you think that shot gives you goose bumps, you ought to see how clean the underside looked and with the body on, I would have paid $200 for it just to sit it in my display case. I'm one of the biggest(get this one)antigravitist,LOL but Joel put his foot in that one!


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## AfxToo

I recall seeing the Tyco prototype sidewinder when it first appeared in Car Model years ago. That would have been one heck of a car for the HO scale. 

The tiny motor seriously intrigues me because it would allow for incredibly realistic body styles without resorting to HO Scale Bloat (HOSB) which is a very serious issue given that set track lane spacing and minimum turn radius has not gotten any larger in nearly 50 years as the cars have grown. Imagine a new line of HO cars with a modern chassis design that is actually smaller than the A/FX and TycoPro lines. We may never get back to sub 1:64 and TJet size for open wheel style cars, but we need to be heading in that direction rather than the direction we have been heading in for the last couple of decades. The other aspect of the smaller motor is that it would likely have much less torque, which would bring even more realism to certain forms of racing.


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## partspig

Yes a very good idea! I have been working on something quite similar, but in a different sort of way. Thing is, are they looking to actually produce that beast? Or is it just a pipe dream? I sure would like to know where they got those motors from .............. sigh.... pig


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## Boosted-Z71

Really cool car & a ton of work in building that motor.

I really like it 

Boosted


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## slotcar58

*Scratchbuilt*

Each part of the motor was made by hand including the comm and the armature laminations! Pat Dennis was making a small run of 5 to 10 of a very similar car, a copy of the Tyco prototype, but I do not know if that is still on or has been sold out.


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## Bill Hall

*Mommy mommy buy me a slot cah twack!*



AfxToo said:


> I recall seeing the Tyco prototype sidewinder when it first appeared in Car Model years ago. That would have been one heck of a car for the HO scale.
> 
> The tiny motor seriously intrigues me because it would allow for incredibly realistic body styles without resorting to HO Scale Bloat (HOSB) which is a very serious issue given that set track lane spacing and minimum turn radius has not gotten any larger in nearly 50 years as the cars have grown. Imagine a new line of HO cars with a modern chassis design that is actually smaller than the A/FX and TycoPro lines. We may never get back to sub 1:64 and TJet size for open wheel style cars, but we need to be heading in that direction rather than the direction we have been heading in for the last couple of decades. The other aspect of the smaller motor is that it would likely have much less torque, which would bring even more realism to certain forms of racing.


Blashphemer!!!

I will pray for your dream!

I think it's pretty clear that my Thundersaurus cobblings are evidence that the old school Tyco can motor can be crammed into some stylings that are near 1/75. Even though they are built down and dirty in Fred Flintstones back yard using stone knives and bearskins; it's proof positive that it could happen fairly easily if someone REALLY wanted it too. 

Imagine what could be done if things like open minded slot car experiences, forethought, and engineering prowess were applied to the concept.

IMHO that little can motor is surely the missing link. The mere thought of a readily available, entry level, versatile, inline chassis that swings the scale pendulum back on the other side of a buck seventy five makes me swoon...fetch the smelling salts....I'm having one of my spells again! :freak:

Sadly the kind of coin required to really blow it open will never be spent to develope such a thing. The safe money is in geeked up gaudy over hyped media stylings that lil' Johnnies folks can buy at Christmas to asuage their guilt and filling his little stocking with the type of magic anti gravity slot cars that will stay on the track while he's simultaneously play stationing, eating a sandwich, and blankly staring out the window as he's tripping on ritilin.

...but I'm still praying with fingers crossed! :thumbsup:


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## joeslotcar

*Small DC motor from Radio Shack*

I have used this motor from Radio Shack (part #273-047) in a scratchbuild with good success. It is less than 1/2" high and 3/4" long.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2911245

Good thing is that it's available in stock at most stores for $3.99

-Joe S


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## TGM2054

I would love to get my hands on a couple of those tiny little motors. I keep having this dream of building a couple of HO scale-ish slingshot dragsters.


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## NTxSlotCars

If only these were readily available at a retailer so we could all build them?


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## partspig

There may well be a light at the end of the tunnel! And it is not the Radio Shack motor!


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## Ralphthe3rd

ROTFLOL @ Bill's statement below 



Bill Hall said:


> .......The safe money is in geeked up gaudy over hyped media stylings that lil' Johnnies folks can buy at Christmas to asuage their guilt and filling his little stocking with the type of magic anti gravity slot cars that will stay on the track *while he's simultaneously play stationing, eating a sandwich, and blankly staring out the window as he's tripping on ritilin.*


:thumbsup:


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## sidejobjon

slotcar58 said:


> Each part of the motor was made by hand including the comm and the armature laminations! Pat Dennis was making a small run of 5 to 10 of a very similar car, a copy of the Tyco prototype, but I do not know if that is still on or has been sold out.


I have one coming. Heard they are sold out. I love Brass . Wish TYCO would have made these. But lucky Pat Dennis is & thats just as good. Whats the differents if he made then or now?


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## Pat Dennis

Just how much would you be willing to pay for one-or more of these?[/
Although I can understand your desire to have this new tiny-sized motor readily available at some price that you deem reasonable, you fail to understand that the total universe for for such a niche market item is estimated at approx. 500 people. Let’s assume that each of you may buy 25 of these over a three year period – bringing the total to 12.5K pieces. How much are you willing to pay for each of these – $5 or $ 250? Even at that maximum price, this would not generate sufficient cash to cover the cost for the laminate prog-dies, much less the housing drawing dies, the brush plates, the injection molds for the end-caps, etc, and then the jigs & fixtures to produce it. Although I would dearly love to see a major manufacturer jump on this need, as it's use is only for HO slot cars, the economics just aren’t there. 
I have agreed to produce just the 12 copies of the original Tyco Mk II prototypes of 1969 and 70 as a project. I have spent over a year and a half designing this product, machining the masters, making up the proto-grade molds, photo-etching parts, plus designing & building the jigs & fixtures to accomplish this (any fool can make one item, try to exactly duplicate that 12 times!).
For reasons that I won’t get into here, I have enlisted a collaborator in Joel Pennington, who has built a couple of prototype that you have seen – proving the potential of the design.


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## alpink

Pat, I applaud your tenacity and product.


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## Joe65SkylarkGS

Boy oh boy i'd love to get my hands on one Pat


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## gonegonzo

I'd like to see a tutorial on building these cars . Are there any instructors available ?

Gonzo


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## sidejobjon

*copy Joels Chassis*

I was trying to copy Joels Chassis. But i need picture of bottom. Also mine will need to be a side winder for the bigger rear tires. The motor is from RC.


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## slotcar58

The only two people who could give you a tutorial or pics of the bottom are Pat Dennis and/or Joel Pennington. It looks like you have a really good start. You probably don't need a tutorial. Look at a retro 1/24 car to get an idea on where to spot solder the motor. Cover any openings, while you solder to prevent rust from the soldering flux vapor. I would love to find the motor you are using. If they were affordable enough, I would buy a half dozen!


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## sidejobjon

*Piano wire*

Slot car,
I went to RC store found them in parts bin. If i don`t see picture off bottom soon, heres what i`ll do There is three piano wires each side. One on each side will hold the side pans, 2nd will hold motor, 3rd will hold rear axle each side.
I ran one of these motors on a formula chassis i was building ran great on power pacs. I burnt it out on Battery powered track.
Pat Dennis told me there is some kind resistor or limiter to put on that motor that will stop it from burning, I did not write down what he said. Have to ask again.
Thanks John


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## Pat Dennis

sidejobjon said:


> Slot car,
> I went to RC store found them in parts bin. If i don`t see picture off bottom soon, heres what i`ll do There is three piano wires each side. One on each side will hold the side pans, 2nd will hold motor, 3rd will hold rear axle each side.
> I ran one of these motors on a formula chassis i was building ran great on power pacs. I burnt it out on Battery powered track.
> Pat Dennis told me there is some kind resistor or limiter to put on that motor that will stop it from burning, I did not write down what he said. Have to ask again.
> Thanks John


To all that are following this thread:
The motor that John (and a few others have found) is from an old RC servo. As it exists, it is too long to be used as a sidewinder, unless you use fairly narrow rear tires. A major headache is that it is designed to operate on a max of 4.0 VDC. To make it short enough and live, and perform on the power found on most HO tracks requires a great deal of effort and very tiny parts that have to be fabricated. I do not know the extent of the miniature maching shop tools plus photo-etching capabilities that you have - but you should consider this before making any quantity purchases. I don't claim to be anything extraordinary, but I have had a "few weeks" of experience in this
Pat Dennis


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## joeslotcar

*My Anglewinder*

Here is an anglewinder I built for the Brass Wars race in Horseheads NY at SCCOTTT Raceway. Tycopro Mabuchi motor, Aurora 15T pinion, Aurora 24T crown (driven) gear, Wizzard fronts and rears. Pickup shoe system is a "quick change" system I designed that has small rectangular tubing as a holder and copper shim stock PU shoes folded/bent to pressure fit into the tubing. White Plastic .125" stock is the base for the shoe holders. This system works quite well but the car is so fast with the 1:1.6 gear ratio that the car wheelies out of the slot on the straight. I am having a front weight machined to fit in front of the front axle to help to hold it in the slot. More testing to be done...
-Joe S


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## NTxSlotCars

Wow, Joe, you make it look so easy.


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## slotcarman12078

That looks  Joe!! That angle winder is a wild creation!! :thumbsup::thumbsup:


Just a thought... Has anyone tried using double sided circuit board proto board material up front to hold the pick up shoes? The bottom can be soldered right to the chassis, the insulation of the board itself would keep the juice on the topside only. The top can be etched with a small milling drill to insulate the + from the -, and the center can have a short stack of brass strip soldered to it to add weight to the nose. The pick up shoes and wires to the motor can be soldered to the left and right edges of the board on top. Clear tape can be used to insulate the shoes on the underside, or the brass can be removed from the underside up front on the board to eliminate short circuits.

I've never built one of these, but I've hand etched plenty of this board material... If you're not familiar with what proto board is, it is a fiberglass circuit board material with a thin copper layer applied to either one side, or both. The user etches the circuit path into it. If the idea sounds off the wall, chalk it up to my inexperience, but if I were to try to build one of these chassis, this material would be my first choice for the pick up set up..


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## K.L. VanAtta

Slotcarman12078,

Prototyping board played an important role in the evolution of slot car construction in the 70's, as did many other materials. The question has not been so much how to get, insulate, and construct and wiper system as how to make one that provides the proper contact and make it "marshal proof" when racing.

Be good,

Keith


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## K.L. VanAtta

Gonzo, Leo, and All,

One must define what sort of tutorial one wants. Speaking from the point of view of an experienced chassis builder, 1/24th and HO, duplicating Joel’s sidewinder design is easy. Having known Joel for way too many years than I care to admit, I feel confident in saying that this chassis/car is only the first step, better things are ahead, and like all of you, I am eager to see what Joel does.

For me, the same can be said of Mr. Dennis’ motor. It doesn’t represent a great technological leap forward nor does it require that many specialized parts to be made; I feel that a very similar motor could be constructed with off the shelf parts and the machining of a new endbell. But, Mr. Dennis’ motor is a brilliant example of his vast knowledge and skill and passion for this hobby/sport and should be taken as inspiration for all of us.

Tutorials for projects like these leap ahead of some of the skills that need to be developed so that when one sees a chassis that someone has built the basic ideas behind the chassis are already understood. Some of the basic tutorials that are needed include one about tools and uses, chassis layout on metal ( scribing the lines ) and cutting, and basic techniques with power tools. Then pulling these together into a tutorial where a chassis is built. 

Next, more advanced topics can be addressed, chassis design, chassis theory, motor theory and rewinding, and chassis setup with the goal of designing and building a car from the ground up. The premise of these tutorials would be that the reader would have a general knowledge of slot car racing and has only minimal tools but is willing to learn and grow.

I am willing to try to put together such a series here on HobbyTalk. I would like to hear from other members if this is something they would want or not? If I do the tutorials I give Leo full rights to copy and reprint the articles in HORCTC.

Be good,

Keith


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## joeslotcar

Keith,
I think a tutorial written by someone with your experience would be very helpful to me (and other scratchbuilders, of course). Many cars I have built have suffered from a small flaw or two that have kept them from top performance. Trial and error scatchbuilding is a great way to gain experience but the frustration level can by very high. Just when you think you have drawn something up that will work great, putting the idea to a brass model can bring out the small flaws that hinder smooth operation. I would love to see a professionally built car done step by step. Just like a 1:1 scale car builder, I get the greatest satisfaction from seeing my work tear up the track, and the competition. You have a yes vote from me.
-Joe S. 

PS Attached are 3 more inlines I have built in the last few years.


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## slotcar58

Keith

I would love to publish your series on building a scratchbuilt in HORCTC. This is just what people are asking for!!


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## sidejobjon

Joe,
Great Job alot work iam sure. Nice Collection Send some pictures of your bench & Tools.


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## slotcarman12078

I'm just amazed at all these brass chassis builds!! I have some brass stuff to mess around with, but nothing wider than 1/4" strip. I am also lacking a jig, and I seem to have a really hard time in the precision department. Keep posting this stuff up, please. One of these days, the urge to make something is going to be overwhelming!! :lol:


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## Pete McKay

About 5 years ago I tried to do something similar to this using a RS Zip-Zap motor with a plastic sheet chassis and 440X2 gearing. As you may suspect, a motor designed to operate on 3 volts doesn't last too long at 12 volts, it's like putting nitro in a Model A motor. But, for the 5 or so minutes it worked it was pretty cool. I never considered brass, I suck at soldiering, but I definately love the concept.


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## sidejobjon

sidejobjon said:


> I was trying to copy Joels Chassis. But i need picture of bottom. Also mine will need to be a side winder for the bigger rear tires. The motor is from RC.


Not wired yet & Motors not mounted yet but getting there.


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## joegri

jeez it just hit me!! i gotta check out the motor that runs power sideview mirrors ... i,l bet theyre close to what might work in a scratchbuild and have 12 volt capacity? ya think?


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## slotcarman12078

Anything is possible, Joe. They're tough enough to handle road shock too. Keep in mind though, power mirrors don't usually run for more than a few seconds at a time. Those motors may not handle being run for long periods. Also, there could be a dropping resistor in the wiring to knock the motor voltage down. Good thinking though, and worth scoping out to see! :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## NTxSlotCars

What about the motors that raise and lowers the windows?


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## dtomol

Power window motors are huge I work in the auto parts industry they are about 2/3 the size of a 1/25 model car.


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## Hornet

Think of the torque they'd have:wave:


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## sidejobjon

*Got it running*

Well i got it running & i had to put on some red rears to match Joels. Fun build


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## joegri

nice job jon am watching and will get started on something when i get home jobs and workvan finished


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## chaparrAL

Hey John. Right on!
The N20 and M20 Mabuchis are going to open a whole new horrizon in scratchbuilding HO cars. Right now Surplus Trader has a couple K of N20's in stock.
The M 20 is the motor that has the same size can as Joel and Pats collaboration. The M20 weighs just 4G , the N20 5G , while the old fashion HT 50 and Sh 030 is 11G.
Power? PLENTY! The M20 has NEO mags and propels the car around the track nicely. The N20 apears to have a polymer type magnet. These can be found for 10 for ten bucks on the internet.
REMEMBER! Never free rev on full power without a load. Like a 1/24 G7 wing car, you will blow it up.


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## chaparrAL

The trick is to use a 10 ohm resistor in place of the pos lead wire. This tones down the motor and improves drivability. :thumbsup:


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## alpink

chaparrAL, I have looked and cannot find that specific set of motors. would you be kind enough to post a link to the proper page?


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## ParkRNDL

Hmmm. Very interesting. What consumer products use that motor? Just so I know what to salvage them from if I see it...

--rick


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## lbishov

*cool build*

Hey John, Is the basis of that chassis a TCP brass pan for AFX cars or did you cut it out of brass stock? Also, where do you get those motors?
Thanks, Larry


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## chaparrAL

For N20 motors check out www.mpja.com for .99 
Also www.alltronics.com has them 10 for $10
www.hosfelt.com has them for .49 .
www.alltronics.com has the smaller M20 motor for 2.75. Now some of these do not come with the NEO mags, so be forewarned.


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## partspig

Al, those surplus N20 and M20 motors are long gone from Surplus Trader and All Electronics!! It appeared that someone bought them all out!! pig


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## alpink

thanx pig!


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## akahollywood

Just got some cute little N20 motors from MPJA in the mail yesterday. S&H cost more than all the motors, but it was worth it. I think. Fire up the iron!


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## Joe65SkylarkGS

Same here. I got 10 but in looking around the site, I found a nice temp controlled iron for 15 bucks!!! Got some extra tips too.


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## co_zee

Dave, are those part #12798 MD? And are you guys running a brass car class(es)?


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## akahollywood

Yes, that's the part number. At the present time, not locally, but there's talk and we probably wouldn't be using these tiny motors.


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