# Engine Room, Report!



## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

A couple of people have asked if I was going to post this on the forum.

So, here it is to date:

http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/engrm10.jpg
http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/engrm11.jpg
http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/engrm12.jpg

This model is 1/8 scale. The central room is about 40" across, 35" deep, and 30" tall. The entire model including the forward room and the engine core, measures about 6 feet long from one end to the other


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

*WOW!!!*  

Beautiful, fantastic!!! :thumbsup:


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## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

Awesome Thomas.


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

Oooh! More purty pikshurs! I think this is turning out great, Thomas. Can't wait to see the finished version with teensy-tiny _Exeter_ in the window. 

- - - - - - 

Jeffrey Griffin
Griffworks Shipyards
 
* * * * * *

Star Trek Scale Modeling WebRing


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Cool! PVC pipe, end caps, wooden balls, a domino(?), even a green transluscent template! I've got most of those things right here at work!  

Seriously, it looks *great! * Keep us posted! :thumbsup:


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Oh, _PLEASE _label one of the pipes "GNDN" for old time's sake .


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

Pretty neat , pretty neat !!! :thumbsup: 
"GNDN" ?


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## spe130 (Apr 13, 2004)

Truly incredible! Are you going to add the mesh across the opening between the main room and the engine core?

(Earlier, I tried to just post "Wow!" - but I quickly learned that posts must be more than 5 characters. :freak: )


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## Ziz (Feb 22, 1999)

JGG1701 said:


> "GNDN" ?


Goes Nowhere, Does Nothing


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

Oh, I knew that.


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## beeblebrox (Jul 30, 2003)

Don't forget the access panel where they keep the easily stolen Dilithium crystals (and Scotty's emergency Scotch bottle).


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## vinyl fan (Jan 1, 2005)

That is a thing of beauty. It looks like an actual sound stage & not a miniature !! 

If you made one in 1/6 scale, you could have stuck the AMT Scotty model in there (lol)


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## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

vinyl fan said:


> That is a thing of beauty. It looks like an actual sound stage & not a miniature !!
> 
> If you made one in 1/6 scale, you could have stuck the AMT Scotty model in there (lol)


Yea, but if Thomas did it 1/6, it would take up his whole shop, not to meantion how he would be sleeping outside when the wife saw how much more room he is taking up. :lol:


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## Nova Designs (Oct 10, 2000)

Ziz said:


> Goes Nowhere, Does Nothing




HAHAHAHA!! Awesome 

Thomas, I don't know what else to say other that *GREAT F'ING JOB!!! *:thumbsup:


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## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

ThomasModels said:


> http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/engrm10.jpg



Have to ask Thomas. I don’t ever remember a scene where they looked up at the ceiling. Most likely because the studio lights were up there. I noticed that you added some type of Windows. Or I am at least assuming those are windows, but you may answer my next question by answering if those are windows or not.
But if they are, isn’t the Engine room supposed to be located at the Tail end of the Saucer section? And if so, there were no windows that you could see in the studio model that I can remember. Or are you adding this for the Exeter only? Just curious because I like the design, and trying to figure out what your doing there. :wave:


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

Sure wish I still had that 1/8 bridge I did back in '79. It would have been a good companion piece.


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## Ziz (Feb 22, 1999)

The engine room was in the secondary hull, so those windows and the curvature of the ceiling would be correct.


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## John O (Mar 8, 2000)

Tholian said:


> ...isn’t the Engine room supposed to be located at the Tail end of the Saucer section?


Tholian, you've been spending too much time with your FJ plans and tech manual. Try taking a look at the cutaway poster.

Thomas, what were your construction materials? Btw, I _love_ the drafting template in the high bay windows.

John O.


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## Rogue1 (Jan 3, 2000)

Wow if it weren't for the circle template in one of the windows, I would have thought it was a full sized room! 

Nice work!


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## Four Mad Men (Jan 26, 2004)

Fantastic work. And it's nice to see the USPS is still around.


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## jheilman (Aug 30, 2001)

*Engineering*

Awesome work as usual.

Although there has been much debate over the years, I believe there is enough evidence in the show itself to conclusively state that main engineering was indeed located in the secondary hull forward of the shuttle bay. There are many dialog clues sprinkled throughout the series and a couple graphic hints leading to the location. 

FJ did some incredible work, particlularly given his limited source material. I still love my old tech manuals. However, it must be conceded that he just got some things wrong. Look at his schematic for the Phaser II. Now look at the far more accurate Art Asylum toy.

Back to engineering. How will this mini set be used? Will they composite the actors into it, or will it be used for an FX sequence without actors?

Looking forward to seeing this completed.


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## KUROK (Feb 2, 2004)

Awesome mini-set, Thom!
Can't wait to see it in the movie...


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## Dr. Brad (Oct 5, 1999)

Very cool. Captures the look of the TOS set very well.

Brad.


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## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

John O said:


> Tholian, you've been spending too much time with your FJ plans and tech manual. Try taking a look at the cutaway poster.
> 
> Thomas, what were your construction materials? Btw, I _love_ the drafting template in the high bay windows.
> 
> John O.



I don't have that Poster.  

I can see what you mean if the Engine room is in the secondary hull. And like you said, The FJ designs have it in the saucer. That’s what I grew up on. Plus the Triangular tubing that goes towards the back, you do have to say that it looks like a dead ringer for Impulse drive engines.

Always saw it that way. And the Di-Lithium chambers you would think head down and then back to the Warp nacelles.

I will have to look for this Cut-Away poster. Is it still selling? Or is it done with?


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Get the poster HERE










Engineering is right where the pylons enter the hull. What you see thru the grille at the back isn't the impulse engines (as the show made obvious, since it pulses and glows when the warp engines are working), it's conduits from the pylons entering the hull. Franz Joseph just reinterpreted it to what the impulse engines look like, and moved it to the wrong place.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

^^I love that poster! I have it framed and ready to hang as soon as my house painting is finished.

I don't agree with it on all the details on it (for example, I prefer the angled bridge explanation FJ uses) but it's a great work of art and does seem to make most everything fit. I especially like the inclusion of the gym facilities glimpsed in _Charlie X_.

I thought FJ was correct on engineering for a long time until I got to studying up on the question of location. The most definitive factor in locating the engineering room in the engineering hull is the curvature of the top of the set, IMHO.

_TMOST_ actually refers to a duplicate engineering room up in the saucer section where most of the functions could be handled remotely and where the engineering personnel would routinely meet. This is not the way it worked out in terms of set construction and storylines and such on the show, however. Most everything points to engineering that we are all familiar with being exactly where the cutaway poster shows it to be. (If they needed a remote station for engineering, there was always Scotty's station on the bridge.)


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

It's really funny, that this thread was started to share Thomas's Picture. Now it's a debate on where engineering is. I am sure that the engineering room is at Thomas's house.


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## Prince of Styrene II (Feb 28, 2000)

ThomasModels said:


> http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/engrm12.jpg


_Hey!_ The Post Office exists in the 23rd century!


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## John O (Mar 8, 2000)

Ya. Those don't look like _FederationExpress_ boxes!!! LOL! I slay myself!


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## BATBOB (Jul 14, 2003)

Tholian,

Watch "The Day of the Dove".

At the end of the show the alien leaves Kirk and the Klingons in engineering. The outside shot of the alien leaving engineering is clearly the secondary hull....Bob


But it was closer to the sensor/deflector dish.


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## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

Thank you all for correcting me. And do not mean that Sarcastic. I have always followed the FJ designs and never really strayed from it. Not saying he is right, and not saying this poster is right. But the concept of it being in the secondary hull makes it sound like that is where it should be.
BTW, who is the Author of the print of that poster? And was it recognized by any ST upper big Wigs as being the *TRUE* Design of the Starship Enterprise? Just wondering if he was endorsed by whomever as saying that is the true one.

I will have to watch the “Day of the Dove”, but I have only got the first season right now. Soon, “I hope”, I will have them all.

And I will be buying that poster. Thanks :wave:


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

From what I've heard, it's the official Paramount version of the STOS Enterprise.


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## X15-A2 (Jan 21, 2004)

Okay, here's another item to consider in the where-is-Engineering puzzle:

In "Alternative Factor" we are shown the "Engineering" section in the Primary Hull. Or at least we could assume that is what it is because it's primary access is via a curved corridor (regretably on the INSIDE of the curve, oh well...), as opposed to Main Engineering's straight-corridor access (kinda-sort-of). Mr Jefferies intended Main Engineering to be in the Secondary Hull at the base of the Warp Drive pylons and this is how he consistently drew it when making section views of the ship, up to and including his work on STMP.

As always, these details were not consistent as seen in the actual show so it is still left to our own interpretations, but I agree with Mark Gagen that Mr Jefferies wishes should trump other factors. His vision was consistent, even if the same cannot be said of the film makers or effects people. Just my opinion here.

There is no "right" answer I freely admit.

BTW, correct me if I'm wrong here but I believe that "Alternative Factor" is the first time we actually see the Dilithium crystal installation (?). If so, then it was only later that they were shifted to Main Engineering.

Now butting out,

Phil Broad


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Phil,

Your input is more than welcome! Always great to hear from you! :thumbsup: 

I think we can dismiss the curved corridor as due to budgetary limitations of an 'integrated set' and the carelessness of the folks filming it. It's something akin to a throway line referring to decks that can't be correct. Anyway, that's the way I look at it.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

X15-A2 said:


> . . . BTW, correct me if I'm wrong here but I believe that "Alternative Factor" is the first time we actually see the Dilithium crystal installation (?). If so, then it was only later that they were shifted to Main Engineering.


I much prefer the location in engineering, even before the later incarnations of ST made it a consistent feature. It just made more sense with the crystals being part and parcel of all that 'throbbing power'.


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## Captain April (May 1, 2004)

Here's what I managed to cook up thus far. YMMV, of course...


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

^ I must opine that the "cylinders" we see thru Scotty's grill are conduits that lead up thru the pylons to the nacelles, and _must _be directly under the pylons. Seems odd to move them way the heck forward like that. 

Indeed, YMMV.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

The poster was originally done by a company called SciPubTech. They issued cutaway posters of all the major Trek and Star Wars vehicles. I assume they had licensing and approval for all. Their Enterprise-E poster came out concurrent with its first appearance on screen as a tie-in.

I just checked my link to SciPubTech, and the domain is for sale. Guess they're gone .


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## justinleighty (Jan 13, 2003)

The problem with trying to figure out exactly where engineering goes in the secondary hull is that the set for engineering and the shuttle bay interior mockup don't work right. I agree with JohnP that the logical place for engineering is at the base of the pylons, and that the conduits run straight up. But then the problem is that the shuttle bay is too big for that to work. It's one of those issues where you're never going to find strong consensus around here, other than that, despite FJ's efforts, engineering is almost definitely in the secondary hull (the set is too high to fit in the primary hull around the impulse engines, even if you ignore the on-screen clues that point you to the secondary hull).

I do like your interpretation, though, Capt. April!


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

I like Phil Broad's interpretation of the shuttlebay. He makes it fit pretty well.


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

http://www.stguardian.to/fed/constitution/constitutionmsd.jpg
A cutaway view to debate. :thumbsup:


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## Nova Designs (Oct 10, 2000)

John P said:


> ^ I must opine that the "cylinders" we see thru Scotty's grill are conduits that lead up thru the pylons to the nacelles, and _must _be directly under the pylons. Seems odd to move them way the heck forward like that.
> 
> Indeed, YMMV.


You know John that's interesting because as a kid I had always envisioned that red engine thingy behind the grill that Scotty was always hanging off of as one of the two vents to the Impulse engines. I thought that since we never saw what was screen right of there that it must just be another one of those devices. That would also be consistent with the curved hallway outside engineering.

But I do agree that it makes more sense to have engineering in the Secondary hull, and it does seem that is the place that the designers and writers intended it to be.


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## zysurge (Sep 6, 2002)

PerfesserCoffee said:


> I like Phil Broad's interpretation of the shuttlebay. He makes it fit pretty well.


 For those of us not familiar, can you expound or provide a link?

Thanks,
Eric


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## X15-A2 (Jan 21, 2004)

Hi Eric,

Here is a link to an image on my web site of the secondary hull inboard profile (section view). 

http://www.cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/STEnterprise/EnterpriseRenderings/WindowComparison.jpg

It must be pointed out however that this version of the E is based on scalling the 11 foot filming miniature to be 1/96th scale. At that scale the ship works out to be 1080 feet long or about 4% larger, based upon the actual dimensions of the model. That difference does not really impact the size of the Hangar Deck in any meaningful way but it does provide a tiny amount of additional space.

This chart was created for a discussion about what scale the big filming model was built to. I think we all agreed that it was originally built at a scale of 1/48th to represent the smaller (540 foot) E as originally envisioned but was quickly changed before filming to represent a larger ship by basically adding additional rows of windows. My theory was that they simply doubled the size of the ship, thus changing the model to 1/96th scale (movie miniatures were built to known scales back in the day, who knows what they do now in Hollywood). If true, this would indicate that the dimensions seen on the Writers Guide plans were wrong, which was my point at the time. Right or wrong, the difference between 947 feet and 1080 feet is almost negligible. I built my computer model to the larger size because frankly, I wanted that extra space inside. The ship is just too damned small so every little bit extra helps!

When you look at this chart you will see a light blue line indicating the bottom edge of the Warp Drive pylon where it meets the Secondary Hull. This will show that my Hangar Deck intrudes about halfway into the space marked by the front and rear edges of the pylons. The Main Engineering space is also shown in this drawing, just ahead of the Hangar Deck front bulkhead, at the top of the hull. This works for me.

I also like the 1080 length because it also provides a smidge more space to shoe-horn the Bridge into the blister on the Primary Hull. Purests will disagree with this approach, which is fine too.

Phil Broad


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

X15-A2 said:


> Purists will disagree with this approach, which is fine too.


I _like_ your approach. :thumbsup: It makes too much sense to try to ignore.

I would also like to point out Phil's fantastic 3D artwork showing the hangar deck fitted very nicely into the engineering hull:

http://www.cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/STEnterprise/EnterpriseRenderings/EnterpriseRenderings.htm

Great stuff! I've saved the pics to use as reference.


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## rossjr (Jun 25, 2001)

What happened to the bowling alleys???


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

I have always liked Phil's work. On my never endind search for any pictures of the great lady, I found Phil's pictures. I never get enough of TOS. Thanks Phil!


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

John P said:


> Get the poster HERE
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is that the poster included with the cuttaway TOS E kit? I have one of those kicking around at home if it is...


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

^^^ The warp engine layout seems to differ from that seen in TASeries?
Who drew the poster above?


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## Four Mad Men (Jan 26, 2004)

Yes, that's a nice poster. Any chance of seeing the shuttle cutway in a little more detail? I know "gimme, gimme".


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## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

Since we are talking Engine room, any chance of getting a close up picture that part of the poster?


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## Ignatz (Jun 20, 2000)

I'm just gonna get me that poster!


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## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

Ignatz said:


> I'm just gonna get me that poster!


So am I, just waiting to get paid.


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

Closeup hanger deck.


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

Closeup engineering.


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## X15-A2 (Jan 21, 2004)

Poster Engine Room is a little wacky.

If those pipes were contained anywhere inside the Warp Drive pylons, the apex of their intersection would be nearly on the centerline of the secondary hull, well below the area occupied by Engineering itself. :O


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## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

[William Shatner on SNL] Get a Life,,, it's just a TV show.[/William Shatner on SNL]LMAO :jest: :lol:


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Chuck_P.R. said:


> Is that the poster included with the cuttaway TOS E kit? I have one of those kicking around at home if it is...


 No, it's a poster you have to buy, made by people who have nothing to do with Ertl models.


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## zysurge (Sep 6, 2002)

X15-A2 said:


> Hi Eric,
> 
> Here is a link to an image on my web site of the secondary hull inboard profile (section view).
> 
> ...


 Thanks!

I, too, had never seen these, and always subscibed to the FJD idea of main engineering being in the primary hull. I like the idea of it being in the secondary hull much better. It just makes sense and carries better to the refit.

One thing I don't understand, based on the drawings and the cutaway poster images linked here. Several of your renderings show two large doors at the front end of the shuttle bay. Wouldn't these just end up opening into the back of the engine core then?

Eric


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## MGagen (Dec 18, 2001)

X15-A2 said:


> Poster Engine Room is a little wacky.
> 
> If those pipes were contained anywhere inside the Warp Drive pylons, the apex of their intersection would be nearly on the centerline of the secondary hull, well below the area occupied by Engineering itself. :O


Phil,

There's often a fair amount of cheating that goes on in these cutaway posters. You've hit on a prime example here.

Try the following on for size. It's my proposal for one _possible_ solution to the "conduit problem." In the drawing, the conduits from the pylons match the configuration of the "eleven-footer" and the deck level of Engineering is set to match the Jefferies section view in TMOST. 

If I drew it today, I'd sacrifice the 90 degree connections to more closely match the angles visible on the set behind the mesh. The rest of the drawing would remain the same. FYI: The diameter of the hull at this bulkhead is about 70 feet. If those opening in the ceiling of Thomas's gorgeous miniature set are supposed to be windows, they must be _really deep ones..._

Mark

CLICK TO ENLARGE


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

zysurge said:


> Several of your renderings show two large doors at the front end of the shuttle bay. Wouldn't these just end up opening into the back of the engine core then?


I was wondering if anyone were going to bring this up.  Maybe there's a little bit of room at 1/96th scale? Tool storage area? Parts?


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## KUROK (Feb 2, 2004)

MGagen said:


> Phil,
> 
> There's often a fair amount of cheating that goes on in these cutaway posters. You've hit on a prime example here.
> 
> ...



That rocks!


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## X15-A2 (Jan 21, 2004)

Hey Mark,

I like your Engine room. I always put it up at the top of the hull so the ceiling becomes the inside surface of the outer hull but it works lower down too. After all, there is no telling what is between the inner and outer hulls. I could envision all manner of things, besides structure, that might make parts of the hull quite thick.

Guys, 

About my inboard profile view, if you study it more closely you will see that the floor of the Engine Room is well above the floor of the Hangar Deck. The large doors at the back of my Hangar Deck open into the space below Engineering. I've attached a little thumbnail image to show what I mean. The upper yellow box in the thumbnail view is showing the location of Engineering while the larger yellow box outlines the space the large hatches on the Hangar Deck open onto.

Back to the purpose of this thread, are there any new progress shots of the Engine Room model?

Phil


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## Captain April (May 1, 2004)

John P said:


> ^ I must opine that the "cylinders" we see thru Scotty's grill are conduits that lead up thru the pylons to the nacelles, and _must _be directly under the pylons. Seems odd to move them way the heck forward like that.
> 
> Indeed, YMMV.


Besides the angles being all wrong, I've never liked the idea of having all that plumbing right up against the hangar deck. Also, I'm trying to take into account all those markings on the underside of the hull and figuring out appropriate functions for them. Long story short, yellow circle with red outline says "warp core ejection port" to me, which means putting the sucker right in the middle of the secondary hull (which is where something like that should be anyway, if ya think about it). Figure in the placement of the dilithium crystal housing (right in the middle of the room), and it just works better to have it set up the way I have.

Plus, making those big orange tubes (and that's all they were considered on the set, big glowing orange tubes that had something to do with the ship's engines) into the power transfer manifold allows just enough flexibility to account for the times when it looks like the warp core and the other times when it looks like the impulse engines (making it the point where the power is transferred to the rest of the ship allows it to fit into either scenario).


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## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

Captain April said:


> Besides the angles being all wrong, I've never liked the idea of having all that plumbing right up against the hangar deck.


I remember my Brother telling me how when he took a shower on his ship, that if he would lean against the wall, or bend down to wash his legs, and touched the wall, he would yelp, because they had the Steam Pipes right next to the showers and it was HOT. So sometimes you have to make do with what you have. :freak:


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

It makes sense to have engineering right next to the hanger deck. If pressure builds up, you open the hanger doors, and let the pressure out. You know "FART". :freak: Great weapon to use on the klingons! :devil:


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Lloyd Collins said:


> It makes sense to have engineering right next to the hanger deck. If pressure builds up, you open the hanger doors, and let the pressure out. You know "FART". Great weapon to use on the klingons!


"Seriously" it could be handy to have the engineering section next to the hangar in terms of replacing large engine components. The larger openings and shuttle access could help the process.


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## Nova Designs (Oct 10, 2000)

I thought that was the purpose of the marked hatches along the bottom of the sechull? Maybe we should see if those can guide in the placement of the engine room. I know one was supposed to be for getting at the deuterium storage tanks and another was for ejecting the warp core, IIRC.


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

Nothing of the reasoning was ever stated for the markings along the bottom of the secondary hull that I've ever been able to find. As such, "Captain April's" labling of the hatches is purely conjectural. Most of it makes sense, tho. Well, up to the point of moving the engine room 180 degrees from what is generally accepted as the configuration, anyhow. I just don't see a need to swap it around like that, but it's his drawings, so ain't gonna argue it beyond general fan acceptance.... 

- - - - - - 

Jeffrey Griffin
Griffworks Shipyards

* * * * * *

Star Trek Scale Modeling WebRing


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## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

Griffworks said:


> Nothing of the reasoning was ever stated for the markings along the bottom of the secondary hull that I've ever been able to find. As such, "Captain April's" labling of the hatches is purely conjectural. Most of it makes sense, tho. Well, up to the point of moving the engine room 180 degrees from what is generally accepted as the configuration, anyhow. I just don't see a need to swap it around like that, but it's his drawings, so ain't gonna argue it beyond general fan acceptance....


I always assumed that the front one was the Tractor Beam. The others could be Garbage hatches.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

I think the white square on the bottom is the warp core ejection panel.


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

I think that the idea of a "warp core" for this ship design wasn't invented in the mid-1960's, so it could be just about anything you desire. 

- - - - - - 

Jeffrey Griffin
Griffworks Shipyards
 
* * * * * *

Star Trek Scale Modeling WebRing


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

I know this will not help, but look anyway. :freak:


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## Ziz (Feb 22, 1999)

Heh - interesting how the "Hangar Landing Target" is *under* the Hangar bay...


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Ziz said:


> Heh - interesting how the "Hangar Landing Target" is *under* the Hangar bay...



That's for the visual sighting computer that calculates the exact landing coordinates based solely on that visual cue. Well, at least that's _my_ technobabble explanation.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Griffworks said:


> I think that the idea of a "warp core" for this ship design wasn't invented in the mid-1960's, so it could be just about anything you desire.


 If you're following some of the discussions in the tech section at TrekBBS, you'll see some of the giants of technical fandom arguing about that. Most agree that the original intent was that the nacelles have the M/AM reactors in them, which is supported by dialog in the show.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

John P said:


> If you're following some of the discussions in the tech section at TrekBBS, you'll see some of the giants of technical fandom arguing about that. Most agree that the original intent was that the nacelles have the M/AM reactors in them, which is supported by dialog in the show.


But that was then. This is now.

"Seriously", :freak: I have no problem with that. It is still obvious that there were the dilithium crystals that performed a function vital for the engines and they were located in the engine room (eventually). Whatever their purpose was back then, the associated equipment had to be there or routed through there. It may be that the crystals performed their functions with the m/am chambers being remotely located in the nacelles. In any case, there was a centralizing aspect to the engines in the engine room in terms of the power being routed through the engines. 

It is possible that instead of a warp core being ejected, the engines containing the chambers were ejected instead.


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

I thought the very first warp core (as in "linear intermit chamber") was installed in the _refit_ Enterprise?


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

John P said:


> If you're following some of the discussions in the tech section at TrekBBS, you'll see some of the giants of technical fandom arguing about that. Most agree that the original intent was that the nacelles have the M/AM reactors in them, which is supported by dialog in the show.


Yes, John. If you'll recall, not only do I occasionally pop in, but have engaged in those conversations in the past. I realize I'm kind of a nobody, for the most part, but c'mon, man.  

Anyhow, a M/AM reactor is just a scosh different than a warp core. As "Trek Ace" says, the first linear intermix chamber (warp core) was first installed on the Refit. As you said, it's all supported by dialog and there's really no reason to have a warp-core in a pre-TMP ship, IMNSHO. At least, not in Kirk's original _Enterpris_e, pre-2270. 

- - - - - - 

Jeffrey Griffin
Griffworks Shipyards

* * * * * *

Star Trek Scale Modeling WebRing


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Griffworks said:


> Yes, John. If you'll recall, not only do I occasionally pop in, but have engaged in those conversations in the past. I realize I'm kind of a nobody, for the most part, but c'mon, man.


 I know, I know, I was just kinda doing an intro narration for the sake of the folks here who may not know about the other board so I could interject the information. :wave:


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## MGagen (Dec 18, 2001)

Maybe that yellow circle on the bottom is the drain plug for the Cetacean Navigator Tank...

:tongue: I crack me up!  

Mark


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

They could be targets for alien ships to shoot at. Kind of a "I dare you" thing.


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## starmanmm (Mar 19, 2000)

Well, to bring this back to the reason for this thread, Thomas, any more shots of this model? I remember when I was a kid, I made a model of the engineering room out of different colored putty. Alway thought of making one in scale with the Mego dolls that came out way back when.

Question for Thomas, my take was that there was a second level or mezzanine to engineering, which ran along both sides. What gave me this idea was from the Doomsday Machine and By any other Name episode (not certain about the last show by name). But there were shots of another level to engineering in the Third Season. Is this something that you will be putting in your model?


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

No, that room was built as a practical set. The reason for the main room being modeled is to shoot it for use as a background plate to be seen while the actors are up in that room looking down into main engineering.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

^^That will be cool!


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## Nova Designs (Oct 10, 2000)

I think that yellow circle under the sechull is the Enterprise's belly button


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Nova Designs said:


> I think that yellow circle under the sechull is the Enterprise's belly button


You know, that actually may be an umbilical connection! GREAT THINKING! :thumbsup:


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

I finally finished building that fully lit 1/350 scale Exeter! Here it is unpainted:










There's something 'off' about it, but I cannot figure out what it is...


























Oh yeah, it's only 1/8 scale....
http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/miniex2.jpg


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

Awwww... LOL Ain't it swwweeeeett? 

Kewel, Thomas! I never would have thought it possible to light something that small. How'd you do it? LED's, I guess? I've never lit anything before, so am somewhat curious. 

- - - - - - 

Jeffrey Griffin
Griffworks Shipyards

* * * * * *

Star Trek Scale Modeling WebRing


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## Four Mad Men (Jan 26, 2004)

Wouldn't 1/8th scale make it somewhere around 118 feet long?


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## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

Why is there all that light by the interconnecting Dorsal?


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

*sputter!* HOLY CRAP!

Let's see, 1/8 of 1/350 makes it ... uh ... really little. :freak:


1/2800?


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

It's the ERTL 1/2500 kit. 

- - - - - - 

Jeffrey Griffin
Griffworks Shipyards
 
* * * * * *

Star Trek Scale Modeling WebRing


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## KUROK (Feb 2, 2004)

Griffworks said:


> It's the ERTL 1/2500 kit.
> 
> - - - - - -
> 
> ...


Yep, I bet you're right. Thom are you selling the corrected B/C deck piece for that and a light kit? :tongue:


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## beeblebrox (Jul 30, 2003)

I don't see any blinking navigation lights. Don't tell me you're slackin' off Thomas!


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

*Cool little ship, Thomas! :thumbsup:*


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

Thanks! That kit (and a different kit from Tholian for another ship) was supplied by Griffworks who will get prominent screen credit!

It is a 1/2500 scale kit:
http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/miniex3.jpg


The nacelle domes were cut off and the front ends were thinned out:
http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/miniex4.jpg


Channels were cut into the pylons and the wire was glued into them:
http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/miniex5.jpg


Tiny holes for optical fibers were drilled into the saucer halves. The halves were sanded thin and a clear plastic disc was cut to shape. A mini maglite lamp was placed in the center of the saucer:
http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/miniex6.jpg


The saucer was glued together and tested:
http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/miniex7.jpg


A piece of clear plexigalss was sanded to shape to form the neck. The saucer wire was run down the front of the neck and puttied to shape. The engine assembly was attached to the secondary hull, the saucer wiring and another mini maglite lamp was soldered at the connection:
http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/miniex8.jpg



The secondary hull was assembled completeing model assembly:
http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/miniex9.jpg

The model will be painted and the windows will be made visable by drilling thru the paint. The lamps are very bright to show up under the lighting that will be needed to shoot this. How long will the lamps last? Hopefully thru the shoot!


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## KUROK (Feb 2, 2004)

Thanks for the detail shots, Thom! Looks like the show will have an interesting mix of CGI and real model shots. Can't wait until March!!!!

I've always wanted to light up that little kit too. Now you've shown it can be done well.


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

Does this mean that you will be getting back to the shuttle ??
huh ? Does it ? huh ??


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

Is that the 1/2500th scale kit from the "Legendary Encounters" kit?


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## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

Chuck_P.R. said:


> Is that the 1/2500th scale kit from the "Legendary Encounters" kit?


That kit I think is bigger than 1/2500. Am I wrong?


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

It's from the "3 Spaceship Set".


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

Chuck_P.R. said:


> Is that the 1/2500th scale kit from the "Legendary Encounters" kit?


The TOS E from that set is 1/2200. Star Trek Scale Listing on Starship Modeler lists the scales of almost every Trek model ever produced. 



Trek Ace said:


> It's from the "3 Spaceship Set".


No, the "3 Spaceship Set" is 1/1600. The "Mini Exeter" is from the first "3 Enterprise Set" from ERTL, which contains the TOS E, E-A & E-D and is 1/2500 as Thomas said. That model is about 4 1/2" long, if that helps folks with a better idea of its size and didn't get that from the pics w/Thomas holding the Mini. 

- - - - - - 

Jeffrey Griffin
Griffworks Shipyards
 
* * * * * *

Star Trek Scale Modeling WebRing


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

Hey, my guess' scale was closer!!! Do I win a year supply of jelly beans or something?


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## beeblebrox (Jul 30, 2003)

You have a choice of Rice-aroni or a set of Funkin' Wagnals!

And an extra $100 if you've got a hard boiled egg in your purse! :wave:


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## Nova Designs (Oct 10, 2000)

Awww, its so CUTE!


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## scotpens (Sep 6, 2003)

beeblebrox said:


> You have a choice of Rice-aroni or a set of Funkin' Wagnals!
> 
> And an extra $100 if you've got a hard boiled egg in your purse! :wave:


I'm curious about these Funkin' Wagnals. Do they have any connection with the Funk & Wagnalls encyclopedia and dictionaries, or are they a retro-70s rock band?


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## scotpens (Sep 6, 2003)

P.S. Shouldn't Thomas's Post #88 have been the start of a new thread?

Fantastic work, BTW!


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

I guess I forgot to mention that this mini will be in one of the windows in the upper section of the wall. So it is essentually a model within the model engineering room.


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## spe130 (Apr 13, 2004)

Ah - you answered my question before I could ask it - which was "why the heck are you using that peanut of a model as a lighted prop?" I think lighting a PL Enterprise will be difficult enough...


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## Stimpson J. Cat (Nov 11, 2003)

PerfesserCoffee said:


> You know, that actually may be an umbilical connection! GREAT THINKING! :thumbsup:


Maybe a refueling port?


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

The engine conduits module isn't positioned correctly. It will be a little higher up so you won't be able to see above the top. I guess the scale of the grill is okay, single layered....




Sorta what I had in mind, but will be positioned much higher in the window. I can almost see Holly from here....


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## Four Mad Men (Jan 26, 2004)

Now THAT is cool!


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## Stimpson J. Cat (Nov 11, 2003)

*Very* cool!


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

Awesome! Can't wait to see the completed scenes. 

- - - - - - 

Jeffrey Griffin
Griffworks Shipyards
 
* * * * * *

Star Trek Scale Modeling WebRing


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

From that view out the window, shouldn't you see the nacelle pylons? if, of course, one subscribes to the theory that the room behind the grille is at the root of the pylons.


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## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

John may be right Thomas. If these tubes in the engine room go into the warp Nacelles, then you would be able to see the pylon.

Just a suggestion :thumbsup:


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

Very nice Mr. Thomas !!! :thumbsup:


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## Ziz (Feb 22, 1999)

John, Thol....this isn't the completed shot, remember? Maybe they're going to draw in the pylon with CG later...


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## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

Ziz said:


> John, Thol....this isn't the completed shot, remember? Maybe they're going to draw in the pylon with CG later...



Ahhhh My Bad! Didn't think about that. :drunk: :freak: 

My Humble Apologies.


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## KUROK (Feb 2, 2004)

Thanks for the pic! Looks like the view of Exeter from Kongo's engine room?


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## Nova Designs (Oct 10, 2000)

Wow that is really looking cool Thomas! I think that they are right about the pylons being visible though. Assuming that you agree about the location of the engine room, of course.


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## ClubTepes (Jul 31, 2002)

ThomasModels said:


> The engine conduits module isn't positioned correctly. It will be a little higher up so you won't be able to see above the top. I guess the scale of the grill is okay, single layered....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very nice Thomas.
What did you use for the 'grill' material?


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

Thanks!

I used a perforated steel from Marco Specialty Steel. They carry all of the TOS steel stuff! (Did anyone click the engine core image?)

The angles the set will be shot at will not show any pylon. 










IF we see the windows in full and IF we see Exeter in the window, we'll be doing pretty good!


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## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

It looks good Thomas. Real good. You still haven't fixed that blemish from the fall. LOL:thumbsup:


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

ThomasModels said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I used a perforated steel from Marco Specialty Steel.


Got a link? I could use some of that for a different application.


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## Admiral Nelson (Feb 28, 2002)

Now I know why Cults site is dead these days. He would have killed this thread a long time ago.


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

Huh? It's a scale modeling thread and a scratchbuild at that. Why do you say it would have been deleted? 

- - - - - - 

Jeffrey Griffin
Griffworks Shipyards
 
* * * * * *

Star Trek Scale Modeling WebRing


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## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

Thomas, I have heard that with some miniatures in movies, they do not add window glass to it because it distorts and looks horrible. Will you be leaving the glass out of this one as well?


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## Four Mad Men (Jan 26, 2004)

Wowsers, that is really nice man. Any chance of seeing a picture from outside the model? To see how it's all set up in relation to each other (if you know what I mean).


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

*RED ALERT!*










Thanks Jimm, that worked GREAT!

I'll post some shots of it from the outside as it nears completion.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Griffworks said:


> Huh? It's a scale modeling thread and a scratchbuild at that. Why do you say it would have been deleted?


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## aridas sofia (Feb 3, 2004)

Griffworks said:


> Nothing of the reasoning was ever stated for the markings along the bottom of the secondary hull that I've ever been able to find. As such, "Captain April's" labling of the hatches is purely conjectural. Most of it makes sense, tho. Well, up to the point of moving the engine room 180 degrees from what is generally accepted as the configuration, anyhow. I just don't see a need to swap it around like that, but it's his drawings, so ain't gonna argue it beyond general fan acceptance....
> 
> - - - - - -
> 
> ...


On Jefferies' *Phase II* cutaway that I supplied to *Mark* and now is on *Phil's* website, the markings on the bottom of the hull are labeled cargo hatches, IIRC.


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

Ah. OK. I wasn't able to find anything on the markings up to this point. I guess that one would assume the same markings for the TOS mean the same thing, neh? 

Thanks, *Aridas*! 

- - - - - - 

Jeffrey Griffin
Griffworks Shipyards

* * * * * *

Star Trek Scale Modeling WebRing


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Hey Aridas is here! Cool! 
Welcome aboard.

John P/Forbin


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## ClubTepes (Jul 31, 2002)

ThomasModels said:


> *RED ALERT!*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is that the correct number of ribs in those red alert lights?:thumbsup:


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

ClubTepes said:


> Is that the correct number of ribs in those red alert lights?:thumbsup:


Actually, the number varied somewhat depending on whether the translucent red panels were cut starting on a rib or in between the ribs. Therefore, there are varying authentic numbers of ribs on red alert panels. :drunk:


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

What the...?

_Of course_ it's correct!!


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

You're asking the man who knows how many corrugations there are on the aft cowls of the TOS Enterprise if he has the right number of ribs?


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

Let's see the degree from Starfleet Academy, Thomas.


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## KUROK (Feb 2, 2004)

John P said:


> You're asking the man who knows how many corrugations there are on the aft cowls of the TOS Enterprise if he has the right number of ribs?



uh.... so how many are there on the aft cowls???


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## jheilman (Aug 30, 2001)

*Cowls?*

I put 140 on my CG Enterprise based on photo research.










Was I close?


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## Ignatz (Jun 20, 2000)

Almost...


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

I believe Tom told us it was 156.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

I definitely appreciate the attention to detail from the creator of PL's Star Trek kits :thumbsup: but, personally, I'm not that picky myself if scratchbuilding or bashing.


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## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

John P said:


> I believe Tom told us it was 156.


I have to get my Tape for in between my Glasses! :freak:  


_Just busting chops. Don’t take me seriously!_


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## jheilman (Aug 30, 2001)

*geeky*

I'm not a geek, I'm not a geek, I'm not a geek...oh forget it...I'm a geek.

But I'm pround to be a Trek geek. But I refuse to dress up at cons and where pointed ears.


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## KUROK (Feb 2, 2004)

Jheilman,
That is a nice CG model. What application do you use?
I'm thinking of getting into CG modelling but hate to steal time away from real modelling.


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

Hey geek! I like your CGI TOS 1701. I for one will not count, because I keep losing my count. 

What if I dress in my ST uniform everytime I post.:jest:


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## jheilman (Aug 30, 2001)

*geeky*

That was made years ago with a discontinued program called Infini-D. I have Lightwave but have never had sufficient time to master it. I should be getting Carrara in a couple weeks at work which is the result of merging Ray Dream Designer and Infini-D and will make the time to learn that.

I still like my E model even though it's innaccuracies become more apparent each year as better info becomes available. Here's a better view.


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## dsscse (Dec 19, 2004)

X15-A2 said:


> Hey Mark,
> 
> I like your Engine room. I always put it up at the top of the hull so the ceiling becomes the inside surface of the outer hull but it works lower down too. After all, there is no telling what is between the inner and outer hulls. I could envision all manner of things, besides structure, that might make parts of the hull quite thick.
> 
> And it sort of matches the layout in the PL 1701 Refit


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## Warped9 (Sep 12, 2003)

jheilman said:


> I still like my E model even though it's innaccuracies become more apparent each year as better info becomes available. Here's a better view.


Very nice model! :thumbsup:


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

I agree! It is a beauty.


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## Dr. Brad (Oct 5, 1999)

jheilman said:


> I still like my E model even though it's innaccuracies become more apparent each year as better info becomes available. Here's a better view.
> 
> 
> Inaccuracies or not, that is a very nice 3D model!


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## jheilman (Aug 30, 2001)

*Tos E*

Thanks guys. OK, one more for fun. This is the "The Tholian Web" view without the Tholians.


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## Captain April (May 1, 2004)

:thumbsup: [Cartman]Sweeeeeeeeeet![/Cartman]

Now, just to take a momentary glance back at the actual subject of this folder, I think we might want to pause a moment and take another look at the real thing...










I don't think those are windows up top.


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## jheilman (Aug 30, 2001)

*engineering*

True - if those four windows are in fact outside windows, there are not any exterior windows on the 11 foot miniature which match up to them. So, maybe they are not exterior windows? Or maybe the creaters had no thought of someone nearly 40 years after the fact scrutinizing their work so closely?

I will repeat that Matt Jefferies was methodical in his design work and I cannot fault any lacking in the screen presence of the Enterprise with him. Others were not as dedicated. I really wish I could have met Matt. Just give me a few hours with Matt Jefferies and George Pal and I would die happy.


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## Captain April (May 1, 2004)

aridas sofia said:


> On Jefferies' *Phase II* cutaway that I supplied to *Mark* and now is on *Phil's* website, the markings on the bottom of the hull are labeled cargo hatches, IIRC.


It should be noted that the markings were _*not*_ present on the refit. They didn't show up until the model was repainted as the E-A.

And since the -A's engineering setup was radically different than the refit (courtesy of shamelessly reusing the E-D's engineering set), there's no contradiction in moving the warp core back to correspond with those markings like I did in my layouts.

I explain it as the Yorktown being one of the last of the old Constitution class ships to be refit, after certain design elements had changed and upgraded, while the Enterprise, being one of the first to be refit, was stuck with the older layout (dialogue in ST III clearly indicates that she was due for another refit).

But this is a discussion best tabled for when I attempt my next magic trick, layouts for the Enterprise-A.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

^^^ The same logic could be applied to the engineering room windows.
This is not supposed to be the TOS Enterprise's engineering room, I don't think(though if that's the Exeter seen through the window it's obviously not the Exeter's engineering room either...).

So one might argue when whatever Constitution class ship this was was built there wasn't strong enough "translucent aluminum" or whatever to withstand phaser fire.

Then later, as that technology improved, they added windows to make the room feel a little more *SPACE-ious*. If you'll pardon the punn... :lol:


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## Captain April (May 1, 2004)

That doesn't change the unassailable fact that, for those to be windows, the upper level would extend outside the exterior hull.


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

If those are windows or not, who really knows. Thomas might have information that other might not have. As for windows, in each officer/crew quarters, there are two windows. I was watching THE MAN TRAP last night and saw one window, but I saw no stars.I know the set has windows, because it is on the blueprint of the set.


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## Captain April (May 1, 2004)

When did they ever show Engineering in "The Man Trap"?


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

In my post, I was saying Crew Quarters not Engineering.


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## Captain April (May 1, 2004)

Well, since we're talking about Engineering....


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

I like the idea of their being windows. They may not be there on other _Constitution_-class ships but each ship is bound to be a little different, IMHO.


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

It could have happened, as each of the 12 Starships in the fleet were built, changes were made to reflect opinions at the time of construction.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Lloyd Collins said:


> It could have happened, as each of the 12 Starships in the fleet were built, changes were made to reflect opinions at the time of construction.


Such same-class anomalies are quite common in the construction of naval ships.


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## woozle (Oct 17, 2002)

What we REALLY need is an exterior shot, looking IN.


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

You might have to wait till Starship Exeter comes out next month.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

PerfesserCoffee said:


> I like the idea of their being windows. They may not be there on other _Constitution_-class ships but each ship is bound to be a little different, IMHO.


You are right, of course Perfesser. But I have to admit that he does have a point about the second level not fitting if that's the top of the secondary hull.

Plus it just occured to me that the pylons coming together at the angle they do would probably also indicate a deeper engine room.

But that's just a guesstimate, I'm certainly no expert. Phil's positioning of the engineering room seems very logical to me, which puts it a good deal lower.

I love the idea, but considering the strategic importance of engineering, it does seem kind of vulnerable that high in the secondary hull.

Perhaps the windows could be done as crystal clear transparent shafts. 

But again, it still looks great and it's not our model...

I like it either way.


----------



## MGagen (Dec 18, 2001)

FYI: The centerline of the pylons on the "eleven-footer" actually converge at a point lower than the centerline of the secondary hull. 

If the conduits visible behind the "Chief Engineer Retaining Mesh" lead directly up the nacelles, then Engineering would have to be very low in the hull. This is because the conduits would have to cross each other to form the upward pointing triangle configuration. 

Engineering can also still be on the deck drawn two feet below the centerline in Jefferies' TMOST cross section and have the conduits link into the pylon conduits. The proposed layout I posted earlier is one way to do this.

Either of the above two configurations would have the compartment much too low in the hull for the windows seen in Thomas' model to work.

It seems we are left with the conclusion that they are instead placing Engineering higher in the hull, closer to where we see it in the the movie Refit. This is not an unreasonable interpretation, however it does make one wonder how the ladder leading up from the room off the upper level can work. 

Hopefully Thomas will enlighten us about their interpretation of the layout and scale issues.

Either way, the model is awesome and I can't wait to see it in action.

Mark


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

I agree! The model IS awesome.
Worse case scenario would just end up blocking those areas out as they are on the TOS set and the model wouldn't be affected in the least.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

MGagen said:


> . . . it does make one wonder how the ladder leading up from the room off the upper level can work.


Would it work as a hatch to the exterior of the ship?


----------



## BEBruns (Apr 30, 2003)

I don't have my copy handy, so I can't verify it, but I seem to remember that THE MAKING OF STAR TREK included a memo in which one of the producers suggested creating a matte painting for engineering showing a window in the ceiling with the nacelles looming above them. Of course, since this was never actually done, it doesn't count as canon, but it does give some indication on what the thinking was during the series' production.


----------



## Ziz (Feb 22, 1999)

*PAY ATTENTION, PEOPLE!!!*



Captain April said:


> :thumbsup: [Cartman]Sweeeeeeeeeet![/Cartman]
> 
> Now, just to take a momentary glance back at the actual subject of this folder, I think we might want to pause a moment and take another look at the real thing...
> 
> ...


----------



## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

Did somethig move? I guess I missed it.


----------



## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

PerfesserCoffee said:


> Would it work as a hatch to the exterior of the ship?


Nope. Still have the depth problem. 

The only convoluted explanation I can think of is making them shafts for escape pods that end in transparent aluminum. Perhaps space would be visible once they are launced.

Quite convoluted an explanation(not to mention that they clearly aren't that deep and not shafts currently, plus - square escape pods?)

But it's all I got...


----------



## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

They are windows. And of course, they have Hull shutters on them to close in case of an attack. That way engineering is kept secure. And it is plated with more armor, also so the enemy can’t see where engineering is as well. You just happen to see the ship with them closed when the views are from the outside. So locating them is harder. 

As for where the Pylons meet up with the Triangle in the engineering area. That is because the conduits run up and then out at a slight angle to meet the pylons and then returns to the angle of the support pylons on the outside of the ship. This way the engineering area is in the correct area, and does not need to be dropped for any reason. The angle is off a tad because again, it distracts the enemy from targeting the engineering area. That way they try to shoot lower, which a non-essential deck that has no engineering components except the warp core. Which is shielded with heavy amounts of armor as well, and it centered in the hull away from the outer areas.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Does that sound good?

Now back to talking to my imaginary friend.

:freak: :drunk:


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Say hi for me!


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## MGagen (Dec 18, 2001)

Ziz said:


> *PAY ATTENTION, PEOPLE!!!*
> 
> 
> Captain April said:
> ...


So let me get this straight, Ziz. You repost Capt. April's image of the real engineering set where he points out that there were no windows there (and *yell at us* for not "paying attention"). 

All the while, none of us are discussing whether the original set had windows. It's not even at issue. 

We're discussing the new miniature set having windows; and Thomas himself stated they are windows:



ThomasModels said:


> I guess I forgot to mention that this mini will be in one of the windows in the upper section of the wall. So it is essentually a model within the model engineering room.


I don't think it's the rest of us who are not paying attention... :wave: 

Or are you saying that the holes in the ceiling of the set (barely glimpsed in the linked image), which we see from some behind the scenes photos were used to admit extra light to the set, were actually windows? In that case, your point will be easier to understand if you omit April's "don't think those are windows" comment.

Mark


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## Four Mad Men (Jan 26, 2004)

This is probably too little to late for this line of discussion but...

Oh, and please overlook the angles, proportions, etc. This is purely for simple illustrative purposes.

Question: Why can't the pipe configuration be more like item 2 instead of item 1? Ignoring, of course, the true answer which is "It can because the true location/configuration was never fully established"...


----------



## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

Four Mad Men said:


> This is probably too little to late for this line of discussion but...
> 
> Oh, and please overlook the angles, proportions, etc. This is purely for simple illustrative purposes.
> 
> Question: Why can't the pipe configuration be more like item 2 instead of item 1? Ignoring, of course, the true answer which is "It can because the true location/configuration was never fully established"...


I concur !


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## Ziz (Feb 22, 1999)

MGagen said:


> So let me get this straight, Ziz. You repost Capt. April's image of the real engineering set where he points out that there were no windows there (and *yell at us* for not "paying attention").
> 
> All the while, none of us are discussing whether the original set had windows. It's not even at issue.
> 
> ...


You need everything spelled out for you, don't you? No one wants to read between the lines.

Maybe they were never intended to be windows. Maybe Thomas just called them "windows" because that was the easiest way to describe them.


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## MGagen (Dec 18, 2001)

Ziz said:


> You need everything spelled out for you, don't you? No one wants to read between the lines.
> 
> Maybe they were never intended to be windows. Maybe Thomas just called them "windows" because that was the easiest way to describe them.


I looked between the lines but there was nothing there.

Even now what you're saying make no sense: That they're probably not windows, and Thomas is only calling them that because it's the easiest way to describe an open frame in the set _through_ which we will see the miniature starship model. 

In short you're saying "It's not a window and he's only calling it a window because it's a window." 

Mark


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## MGagen (Dec 18, 2001)

Four Mad Men said:


> This is probably too little to late for this line of discussion but...
> 
> Oh, and please overlook the angles, proportions, etc. This is purely for simple illustrative purposes.
> 
> Question: Why can't the pipe configuration be more like item 2 instead of item 1? Ignoring, of course, the true answer which is "It can because the true location/configuration was never fully established"...


I like solution 2 even better now than when I originally proposed it back in Post # 60 of this thread...  



MGagen said:


> ...Try the following on for size. It's my proposal for one _possible_ solution to the "conduit problem." ...
> Mark
> 
> CLICK TO ENLARGE


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

Everybody play nice. It's not even our model. 

Some of us just like the idea of the windows and the shot Thomas posted earlier looked great. We're just trying to grasp at a straw or two in order to whip up a logical explanation for the shot he posted earlier being reasonable.

I haven't been able come up with any explanation that is not patently lame(my own "escape pod" nonesense excuse seems lamer to me with each passing second), but there's no point in getting genuinely upset over it on either side of the issue.

It's just a TV show afterall...
[ducks and runs for cover]


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

I think that Thomas just gave us hints, so we can debate this, while he has fun.:jest:


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## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

Chuck_P.R. said:


> It's just a TV show afterall...
> [ducks and runs for cover]


Sounds like Shatner on Satarday Night Live. :lol:


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## Barry Yoner (Mar 6, 1999)

Well, I for one am thrilled with Thomas' "take" on that Main Engineering room!! I think we all should wait to see how it looks in the production rather than argue endlessly about whether the location of Main Engineering is "right" or not and whether windows are appropiate... it would be majestic to see those huge engines and nacelles while looking up through those windows!

Interesting discussion on the specifics of whether M.E. could actually have that sort of arrangement!!


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

Wise words. The way Engineering changed from season to season, it is hard to know what it really looks like.


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## Captain April (May 1, 2004)

I don't recall Thomas saying one way or the other regarding the existence or nonexistence of any actual windows.

Just pics of an unfinished miniature set with openings in the upper reaches, through which we see a miniature starship model. Nothing about whether or not those openings were gonna stay that way.

As for that upper level, let's take the assumption that those _are_ windows, and that's the contours of the hull.

Follow the curve downward.

The exterior hull would come down right about where that railing is, leaving the rest of that upper level completely outside the friendly confines of the secondary hull.

I'll leave the matter of whether or not those big orange tubes really do lead up to the nacelles for another time (and probably another forum entirely).


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

MGagen said:


> I like solution 2 even better now than when I originally proposed it back in Post # 60 of this thread...


Yours is the superior! :thumbsup:


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Captain April said:


> The exterior hull would come down right about where that railing is, leaving the rest of that upper level completely outside the friendly confines of the secondary hull.


 I agree. Tom, whadda ya think?


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## MGagen (Dec 18, 2001)

Chuck_P.R. said:


> Some of us just like the idea of the windows and the shot Thomas posted earlier looked great. We're just trying to grasp at a straw or two in order to whip up a logical explanation for the shot he posted earlier being reasonable.


Given how thorough Thomas is about these things, I don't doubt for a moment that there is a logical explanation about how the windows work. It's probably that the producers have asked him to put Engineering high in the secondary hull where the windows would be an option.

Time will tell.

Mark


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## Ignatz (Jun 20, 2000)

Regardless of whether everything fits or not, it would make a very cool shot in the movie. Also, it would be very nice to be able to visually inspect the nacelles right from engineering--if they were visible through the skylights. I blame the original designer/model makers for omitting this feature.


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

Wow, you guys really get into this!

Like all work I have done for this film, everything I made and detailed is at my discretion, except for the bridge display graphics, the shuttles and this engine room. All of that stuff followed what was seen on screen. Granted, those and everything else I built are 'interpreted'. For instance, the engine room model. 

As seen in this image:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/CaptApril/Miscellaneous/entengin.jpg
There is an upper level with a thin wire ladder and handrails. Right above the upper level alcove we see supperstructure supports. As you can see in that image, the superstructures do not maintain a constant depth. They are taller at the base. The backside of the super where it meets the wall, if we follow the contour of that wall, will intersect at the base of the wood structure above the door in this image:
http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/engrm12.jpg
(Assuming that wall is the exterior hull and it is of consistant thickness.)

I read here some opinions that this room is in fact deep within the secondary hull. I disagree, because of those superstrutures mainly, but the openings between them. In a clearer shot, they are shaped as I built them on my model:
http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/engrm09.jpg
The only thing not in that area are the tubes which run across each window top/bottom as seen in the actual image above. I believe they were designed as windows. On the shooting model, right from the start, there were a row of windows on the secondary hull that could be seen as matching the engine room windows. Granted they are lower on the hull contour in an area close to where this room could be, but they are there.

Something else to consider is that this room had a couple 'small' nooks, with doors, handrails, etc. It is clear from viewing this model from multiple angles, that this set was designed and built to be shot from many great perspectives, but we never got to see it from those perspectives. Production design executions are tighter now, but 40 years ago when the room was designed and built, those opening were probably intended to be windows. For what ever reason, it was decided they wouldn't be shown as windows and instead were shown dimly lit. If we were standing at the consoles and looked up, you'd have a great view of the nacelle above you. Jimm suggested that one of the windows be 'closed' and lit similar to the way the real set appeared. That may satisfy some. We'll shoot it several different ways and pick the best shot for the final cut.

Since this model was built to be photographed as a static background plate for live action, we won't get to move around in the room and see up above to view the nacelle. Jimm did like the progress of the model and I sold him on an establishing shot which will start at Scotty's station and pan around to view the engine core.

You can interpret this in many, many ways, but one thing remains; *It's a forty year old TV show! * It is doubtful the producers and set designers intended their sets to be scrutinized many years later with such intensity.


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

You are right about the windows. I tried to tell everyone that the crew quarters have windows, but I never saw stars otside. But the windows in the Hanger observation deck, you can see stars. Just because you can not see out does not mean that they are not windows.

Remember the observation deck windows in the hanger deck? They were just white lights coming out, but if the had more money they could have shown crew members.
Watch The Conscience of the King to see what I mean about the windows.


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## Ignatz (Jun 20, 2000)

It's what we love, man. It's what we _love_!

Can't wait to see the finished production!


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

You are thinking of leaving them as windows and NOT showing a view if the spinning nacelles!?!

What a freakin' crime that would be!!!

How about a panning shot from a personal perspective starting out with the background lights behind the enmeshed pylon/tube area starts to flicker, then one looks up at the nacelles to see them change rotational speed or whatever, then back down to see the pylon/tube area loose lighting, then back up to see darkened nacelles?


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## woozle (Oct 17, 2002)

You could just.. you know.. casually drop the camera, accidentally getting an expensive CGI short of the the Nacelles that an animater just _HAPPENED_ to make, just in case it was needed.. nobody has to know. We'll keep it just between us.


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

Three things wrong with your suggestions:

1-The 'windows' are almost on the side wall of the secondary hull. You can not see any part of the nacelle standing mid-room looking up towards the windows. You could only see a portion of the nacelle while at the control console, leaning forward and looking _up_ and towards the centerline of the ship.

2-This isn't the _Enterprise_ or _Exeter_. It's the engine room from another ship.

3-Did you see these concept illustrations?
http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/crash5sm.jpg
or this?
http://homepage.mac.com/starshipexeter/exeterstudio/images/concept/Thomas-Tressaurian/kongo1.jpg

So guess what kind of shape this room, not to mention the nacelles will be in?

http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/debris23.jpg
http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/balls12.jpg
http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/balls14.jpg
http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/balls16.jpg


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## starmanmm (Mar 19, 2000)

Love the detail work!! :thumbsup:


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## beeblebrox (Jul 30, 2003)

Ya broked it.


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## Stimpson J. Cat (Nov 11, 2003)

Excellent work Thomas! I can't wait to see the film.


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## MGagen (Dec 18, 2001)

Thomas,

The window concept will make a wonderful visual in the episode. And you may very well have a point that the spaces in the original set were intended to be windows. I think the objection about part of the set existing outside the hull (I don't recall who raised it) stems more from seeing Scotty and crew climb down into the Constellation's engineering room in Doomsday Machine. They come down a ladder in the small room on the aft end of the upper level. This ladder would necessarily have to come in from outside the hull in this configuration.

Of course, your point is valid about it being a 40 year old TV show. Also this this is the Kongo, rather than the Enterprise (or the Constellation).

What I find more interesting is what these possible windows say about the early set design process. The windows appear so large. What size would the ones on your model be in "real life" ?

We know that the Engineering set wasn't built until the series went into production; but I wonder how early its configuration was sketched out. I have documentation which shows that by the time the first scale drawings of the ship were prepared the eventual 4X model (the "eleven-footer") was planned to be in 1:48 scale. In it's final configuration, this would have made the _real_ ship only 540 feet in length. When you place the engineering set into that size ship you notice a very interesting thing:

CLICK TO ENLARGE
 

If this was what was on their minds, then windows do indeed make sense here -- at least in the original configuration. Early on, Roddenberry stated he wanted big overhead windows where we could see the engines overhead. I just never suspected they tried to give them to him.

If we turn to how the set fits into the final 947 foot version of the ship, and we place engineering in front of the hangar deck and 2 feet below the centerline of the hull (per Jefferies explicit directions on the Phase II cross section) we still find that the ceiling of the engineering room is at least concentric with the outer hull. 

CLICK TO ENLARGE
 

Of course, this places it too deep within the hull to allow windows; but it doesn't present any difficulties to coming down the access ladder onto the upper level.

The Kongo, as depicted in your model, obviously has a much higher engineering room than this; and it will make a very striking impression on the viewers when it makes its appearance. I look forward to seeing the finished product in the next episode.

And thank you for putting me on the scent of another of those fascinating early set design details. 

Mark


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

To coin a phrase, "fascinating!"


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## jheilman (Aug 30, 2001)

*Tos E*

And the evidence for 540' continues to mount.

Bravo.


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## Captain April (May 1, 2004)

And if you put aside the assumption that those tubes somehow connect to the nacelles, then you can put the engine room anyfrellingwhere within the hull you want, with the added bonus that you don't have to explain why the tubes go /\ while the pylons go \/.


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## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

MGagen said:


> CLICK TO ENLARGE


This is a wonderful Concept. I would say that where they intersect at the bottom \/ is where the Di-lithium Chamber from the front intersects and makes the Matter - Anti-Matter reaction. Maybe someone can draw that in! :wave:


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

This quote is from Gene Roddenbery to Matt Jefferies, May 24,1966. "Also suggest we consider having on the ship a large port,*possibly overhead, which uses an Anderson painting or something, to give us a view of the ship's nacelles thousands of feet long and hundreds of feet over our heads."

* This idea was later dropped, in view of the theoretical size established for the Enterprise. It was also decided that such a "viewing port" would not be in keeping with ship's technology, since a scanning device could project this on any one of the ship's viewing screens.

This information came from THE MAKING OF STAR TREK book. Just a little FYI!


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## MGagen (Dec 18, 2001)

Tholian said:


> This is a wonderful Concept. I would say that where they intersect at the bottom \/ is where the Di-lithium Chamber from the front intersects and makes the Matter - Anti-Matter reaction. Maybe someone can draw that in! :wave:


Thanks, Tholian.

I'm no Warp Technician (nor do I play one on TV), but that's exactly how I picure it: A conduit emerging out of the bottom of the lower "V" and coming forward under the deck. It would attach from beneath to the big thingamajig with the dilithium crystals in it that appears in later episodes in the middle of the floor.

Mark


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

MGagen said:


> A conduit emerging out of the bottom of the lower "V" and coming forward under the deck. It would attach from beneath to the big thingamajig with the dilithium crystals in it that appears in later episodes in the middle of the floor.


 :thumbsup: Perfect!


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## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

MGagen said:


> Thanks, Tholian.
> 
> I'm no Warp Technician (nor do I play one on TV), but that's exactly how I picure it: A conduit emerging out of the bottom of the lower "V" and coming forward under the deck. It would attach from beneath to the big thingamajig with the dilithium crystals in it that appears in later episodes in the middle of the floor.
> 
> Mark


Exactly, The Di-Lithium chamber conduit will run to the Thingamjig. Then those will go into the Matter/Anti-Matter reaction chamber, following the Whosewhatsits to the Triangular Thingamabobs. Thus inducing Plasma radiation to the support Pylons and introducing a Warp envelope.

It's so simple, a child could do it. :freak:


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Somebody get a child, quick!


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

Thomas has a pretty kewel theory worked out for main engineering. I hope he'll share it with us one of these days, as I think it's a pretty sound version of how things were set up for teh show, IMO. I never would have occured to me, had he shown the drawings he worked up, tho! 

- - - - - - 

Jeffrey Griffin
Griffworks Shipyards
 
* * * * * *

Star Trek Scale Modeling WebRing


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## Four Mad Men (Jan 26, 2004)

In another life I started a project to model the interior of the TOS nacelles. And thanks to some series dialogue input from someone who shall remain nameless (they are free to speakup here if they so wish) here's my take on how it all works:

In Kirks's time there is not anti-matter storage. Much too dangerous even for the technological advances of that era. So...

1) Reactor #1 which is located in the secondary use it's single dilithium crystal to turn a matter stream into an anti-matter stream.

2) The resulting anit-matter stream is split in two and each one is sent to it's respective nacelle. Each nacelle is also fed a matter stream.

3) Reactors #2 and #3 (one in each nacelle) uses a single crystal each to process the two incoming streams into warp plasma. Here is where the M/AM reaction takes place. Well away from the habitable areas of the ship.

4) The resulting warp plasma is then used to power 1) The warp coils to create a warp field and 2) The (as yet un-named) wave coils that produce "motion". The wave coils are simply special warp coils. In my project these wave coils are located just being the domes and the spinning blades you see are part of this system.

Now... Any escess warp plasma that the coils are not using can also be fed back into the ship itself as an additional power source. The main power source on the ship being a set of fusion reactors.

That's my take at this point so feel free to accept or deny my thoughts on this. The process of course changes by the time you get to the movie era and beyond.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

ThomasModels said:


> Three things wrong with your suggestions:
> 
> 1-The 'windows' are almost on the side wall of the secondary hull. You can not see any part of the nacelle standing mid-room looking up towards the windows. You could only see a portion of the nacelle while at the control console, leaning forward and looking _up_ and towards the centerline of the ship.


I didn't say the view between the rear engine section and the nacelles above have to be taken from mid-room.

Obviously there aren't people small enough to sit at the control console of your miniature. So just make the mouse holding the pinhole camera lean forward to get the shot!

What's he gonna do? Call his union and complain about a backache? :lol:


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## Captain April (May 1, 2004)

John P said:


> Somebody get a child, quick!


Yeah, so he can explain just what in the frell they're talking about. :drunk:


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## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

I like that one Four Mad Men. Neat explaination. Want a job on my starship? LOL


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## Four Mad Men (Jan 26, 2004)

I've been looking for a job in space since I was 3, so I accept. When do I start?


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## spe130 (Apr 13, 2004)

I was always under the impression that the warp engines did the dimensional space folding or whatever, and the impulse engines provided the thrust to move through the warped space.


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

Four Mad Men aboard!
*Red Alert!*

This file is about 740kb in size.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Oh, that's loverly.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

That is too cool!


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## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

I need some of those in my house for when my Children are coming up the walk. To let me know they are almost here.

Awesome effects Thomas. Kudos!!


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

That was way cool, Thomas!


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## Four Mad Men (Jan 26, 2004)

Impressive. Most impressive. I've never had anyone call red alert just because I showed up. Well not too many. OK, a few. Oh, who am I kidding...


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## Nova Designs (Oct 10, 2000)

Hahaha, very sweet, Thomas!


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

:thumbsup: Awesome dude , awesome !!! :thumbsup:


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

Very kewel, Thomas! Can't wait to see how they work that in and how good a job they do working the live action in w/the miniature set. 

- - - - - - 

Jeffrey Griffin
Griffworks Shipyards
 
* * * * * *

Star Trek Scale Modeling WebRing


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

Dylithium circuits online, Captain!


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## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

ThomasModels said:


> Dylithium circuits online, Captain!


Did you use Miniature Soccer balls like the original? LOL


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## scotpens (Sep 6, 2003)

*An Impulsive Reply*



spe130 said:


> I was always under the impression that the warp engines did the dimensional space folding or whatever, and the impulse engines provided the thrust to move through the warped space.


I don't recall any indication in the original show that the impulse engines were used for anything other that sub-lightspeed propulsion. In fact, it's one of the few technically consistent points throughout all three seasons of TOS. There was always the explicit distinction between warp (faster-than-light) and impulse (slower-than-light) power.


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## trekkist (Oct 31, 2002)

Actually, the original series -- and indeed, all sequels save "Enterprise" -- offer a number of "proofs" of impulse's being a hyperlight-capable system. Was it meant to be that? No. But dialogue tells a different story:


*Original Series*

 In “Mudd’s Women,” the ship is fourteen hours out’ve Rigel XII at an uncited warp speed when the failure of her last lithium crystal leaves her reduced to “auxiliary impulse engines.” Needless to say, she arrives in short order – hardly as though she’d been denied faster-than-light speed.

 In “Balance of Terror,” the cloaked Romulan ship’s power is “simple impulse,” but identical ships easily surround _Enterprise_ as it penetrates the Neutral Zone at warp speed in “The Deadly Years.”

  Impulse thrust is added to warp in an effort to escape Balok’s tractor beam in “The Corbomite Maneuver,” as though a system capable of applying less than one multiple of the speed of light could add a useful increment of thrust.

 Matt Decker’s crippled _Constellation_ both overtakes and outdistances the title “character” of “The Doomsday Machine,” a device which must have been capable of hyperlight speed, what with the imminent danger it presented to Rigel.



 *Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan*

Five hours out from Regula spacelab at warp 5, Enterprise is stripped of warp drive by Khan’s attack, but completes the trip on impulse before rigor mortis sets in among Khan’s previously-killed victims.





 *Star Trek: The Next Generation*

 The pilot episode, “Encounter at Farpoint,” has the _Enterprise-D_’s saucer separate from the battle section at warp, and complete on its own an interstellar journey (though this could arguably result from a “residual warp velocity,” the episode “Arsenal of Freedom” has Geordi LaForge leave Engineer Argyle in command of the saucer, his orders being to proceed to another star system – despite the combined ship’s being brought to a dead stop).

 In “The Battle,” Picard’s old ship, the _Stargazer_, approaches the _Enterprise-D_ from well outside normal sensor range on impulse. The order is then given for an “impulse tow.” Presumably, Picard did not intend to tow the ship to the edge of the star system…

 In the first minutes of “Conspiracy,” the order “warp six” is given. Geordi’s reply? “Aye sir, full impulse.”

 “The Mind’s Eye” opens with Geordi being kidnapped in deep space by Romulans. He is flying a shuttlepod – a small craft said to have only impulse propulsion.



 *Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country*

This film opens with Captain Sulu taking the _Excelsior_ home from a three-year mission on impulse power. It would be a long trip…

"Voyager" has a reference similar to the above (though I can't quote it). IMHO, "warp drive" was a more efficient, and most likely faster-capacity, FTL system that superceded -- but did not replace -- hyperlight-impulse.

David Winfrey


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

^^ Interesting. I've long thought that impulse was at least capable of warp 1 but never realized there were references to impulse being routinely used for FTL.


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## heiki (Aug 8, 1999)

In the first/pilot episode of Deep Sleep 9, the space station became warp capable when they wanted to move closer to the worm hole.


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## KUROK (Feb 2, 2004)

Tholian said:


> Did you use Miniature Soccer balls like the original? LOL



I thought TOS was a big user of painted bowling balls... in the engine room and also in the shuttlecraft scanners?


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## woozle (Oct 17, 2002)

I get the impression that the Impulse Engine's drive plasma can be added into the Warp Reactor, to power the warp field and also that the Warp Reactor can create a warp field without the fine refinement of the dylithium crystal. 

In DS9, they create a fairly low level warp field and used it's station keeping thrusters to go about a quarter lightyear in two hours (or so, I forget).

A Warp Field seems to both warp space around the ship, reducing it's mass in the physical universe and also alter the value of the speed of light inside the field. 

In the end, the warp drive is a litarary plot device and has no technical specifications or scientific theory that can be set in stone.


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## BEBruns (Apr 30, 2003)

woozle said:


> In the end, the warp drive is a litarary plot device and has no technical specifications or scientific theory that can be set in stone.


I remember on one of those Making of programs, they were discussing the transporter. In real life, they wouldn't work because of the the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle (basically, you can't determine both a particle's position and it's velocity with a high degree of accuracy). So the technical consultants came up with the Heisenberg Compensator. If someone asks how that works they would reply, "very well, thank you."

Any futuristic technology is essentially B.S. The best you can hope for is consistent B.S.


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## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

BEBruns said:


> Any futuristic technology is essentially B.S. The best you can hope for is consistent B.S.


Lets hear it for the BS! Wooo whoo!!!


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## beeblebrox (Jul 30, 2003)

BS makes the world go round. It's fed directly into the GNDN crossover access manifold. If that doesn't work, try 50/1 ratio in yer 2 cycle quadrilithium chamber.


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## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

beeblebrox said:


> GNDN crossover access manifold.


LMAO. Now I remember the abbreviation. Loved that when I heard what it meant on the Second season TOS DVD collection.

Need some of those at work. :wave:


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## woozle (Oct 17, 2002)

It means _Goes Nowhere, Does Nothing_ by the way.


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## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

woozle said:


> It means _Goes Nowhere, Does Nothing_ by the way.


Darn, I was waiting for someone to Ask ! LOL


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

Sounds like a load of Fetid Dingo's Kidneys to me!


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## beeblebrox (Jul 30, 2003)

:lol:


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## Stimpson J. Cat (Nov 11, 2003)

My Brother, who is a Dr. of the scientific sort, told me once that any time engineers need a substance that doesn't exist they call it "Unattainium". He said 3/4 of the stuff on the Enterprise must surely be made of this rare element. LOL


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## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

Stimpson J. Cat said:


> My Brother, who is a Dr. of the scientific sort, told me once that any time engineers need a substance that doesn't exist they call it "Unattainium". He said 3/4 of the stuff on the Enterprise must surely be made of this rare element. LOL


I like that one. Have to remember that!


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## beeblebrox (Jul 30, 2003)

Stimpson J. Cat said:


> ... "Unattainium". He said 3/4 of the stuff on the Enterprise must surely be made of this rare element. LOL


AKA styrofoam.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

It's usually called "un*ob*tanium," (as in you can't obtain it) and that joke's as old as engineering .


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

And a company selling Enterprises! :freak:


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## scotpens (Sep 6, 2003)

beeblebrox said:


> BS makes the world go round. It's fed directly into the GNDN crossover access manifold. If that doesn't work, try 50/1 ratio in yer 2 cycle quadrilithium chamber.


Quadrilithium? Never heard of the stuff. Is it anything like quadrotriticale? Or is it a medication for treating quadrophenia?

BTW, maybe the big black slab in "2001: A Space Odyssey" was made of monolithium.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

And all this time I thought it was made of stars!

That's what I get for listening to delusional astronauts about to be transformed and assimilated into detached shells of their former selves...


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

A few test shots....

http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/engrm25.jpg
http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/engrm26.jpg
http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/engrm28.jpg
http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/engrm29.jpg


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## spe130 (Apr 13, 2004)

Let me be the first to say...wow! Great pics! :thumbsup:


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

Let me be the second one to say WOW !!!  (How big is this anyway ?)


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Can't wait to see it painted!


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

At any moment I expect Scotty to walk in. Beautiful work!


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## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

Didn't know they had Post-its that big. Must be a future thing.  

Great job as always Thomas!


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## X15-A2 (Jan 21, 2004)

So COOL!!!

Could you tell us a little about how you are photographing the the model (camera, mm lens, exposure time, etc)?


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

Thanks again, guys!

Those pics and everything else I post, were shot with an Olympus 2mp cheapy digital camera with a 4.5mm 1:4 lens. No flash and the lighting comes from the shop's overhead florescents off to the sides. Nothing was intentionally lit except for a mini florecent put into the power tube area to throw some light in there.

The footage will be shot by a professional local photographer and lighting guy with their equipment. I have no idea what they're going at use.


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## guartho (May 4, 2004)

trekkist said:


> Actually, the original series -- and indeed, all sequels save "Enterprise" -- offer a number of "proofs" of impulse's being a hyperlight-capable system. Was it meant to be that? No. But dialogue tells a different story:...


There's also Scotty's line in Elaan of Troyius that seems to indicate that they don't routinely use impulse at all. I am at work and don't have the ep on me, but I believe he says something like "Ordinarily we use the warp engines exclusively..." referring to the fact that they're taking it slow on impulse so the blue ambassador dude can have the extra time he wants. 

Since Scotty is not prone to throw words like "exclusively" around when he doesn't mean them, (when he's talking about his engines at least) I take his word for it. To me, this indicates that they use the warp engines for sub-light as well and that impulse is just a back-up.


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

The monster is base coated with a light blue-ish gray:
http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/engrm39.jpg

In that pic you can see some of the outside of the model.

On to detail painting the loose bits!


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Whoo-hoo! Gettin' there!


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## woozle (Oct 17, 2002)

Didn't we see another room, in the Engineering complex, that is above the main room? Mirror Mirror comes to mind.. IIRC, it was in the Mirror Mirror scene where Scotty is trying to re-rout transporter power. 
Would that be via the mezzanine we see on the starboard side of the set? or would it be off camera, to the port?


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## Ziz (Feb 22, 1999)

It's "over" the wall that isn't built on the model because that's where the camera has to go.

http://www.trek5.com/caps/tos/39_MM/pages/39_MM-083.htm


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Tom, did you use foamcore for the walls, or is that all plastic?


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

Ziz said:


> It's "over" the wall that isn't built on the model because that's where the camera has to go.
> 
> http://www.trek5.com/caps/tos/39_MM/pages/39_MM-083.htm


Good find, John. That puts an interesting perspective on Engineering, tho. Makes it look a lot smaller than the standard "long lense" scenes we get make it out to be. Helps that they can move all those "stationary" items around on wheels, to include the walls, tho, don't it?


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

Ziz is right. The small room overhead is where the camera will go. The live action will take place in this small room with the engine room mini as a background plate.

This model is built with foamcore over a wood furring strip frame. It is light and damages very easily. Fortunately, the room will be shown damaged and a lot of the unintentional dings and dents will become weapon discharge hits. The central dylithium chamber is built from foamcore that is covered in sheet plastic with large resin cylinders and wood balls. There will also be many strips and tubes of styrene added after they are painted with dark gray, blue, red and yellow.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Foamcore is god's gift to hobbyists and craftsmen.

My wife is building a gorgeous 1/12 San Francisco townhouse. The shell is entirely 1/2" foamcore, which is then covered with wood siding:
http://www.inpayne.com/dollhouse/dollhouse11.html

On the boring side of foamcore, I spent a couple days last week mounting 18 A2-sized posters on foamcore at work.


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## Stimpson J. Cat (Nov 11, 2003)

Wow, tell your wife she does beautiful work! :thumbsup:


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## TrekFX (Apr 15, 2004)

I'll give you all a BIG tip about foamcore.

If dimensional stability and maintaining good "flatness" isn't critical, go ahead and use the regular ol' paper-clad foamcore.

BUT, paper-clad will respond dramatically to changes in climate (humidity) in nasty and unpredictable ways. Your work may start off flat or with structure perfectly-aligned, but come a humid week in summer, you'll be pissed!

I have come to depend on plastic-clad foamcore for more critical work. Cladding is very thin polystyrene, so it will work well with a variety of solvent/non-solvent adhesives (be careful with solvents, don't use too much!). It is almost as easy to work as paper-clad, with the added benefit of being able to cut through to the second clad and then just do a simple score-n-snap rather than cut all the way through. A minor thing, but handy. It is highly resistant to warp/expansion/contraction due to environmental changes. It costs a fair bit more, but the savings in aggravation and re-work makes it worthwhile in critical applications.


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

I looked for the plastic clad stuff but could not find sheets large enough and quanity to build based on what I wanted to spend.

Do you have a source for that stuff?

I just hope this room lasts long enough to get the shots we need. It's big, but looking at it in person is much different from seeing it in photos. Hopefully, the moving camera and lower frame rate will 'hide' some things that are visable in the stills.


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## TrekFX (Apr 15, 2004)

I think my sheets were around 2 foot by four foot... I'll have to go measure. I had them custom-cut.

I got them from a place called Charrette in Woburn, Ma. I'm sure that if you dig you can get them at any decent artist-supply house.

I was wrong about the cladding. It's PVC. And they're available in HUGE sheets!

https://www.charrette.com/scripts/wgate/zshop77cf4456/~flN0YXRlPTE1Mjc3LjAwNS4wNC4wNw==?area=0000001352&~okcode=AREA&~target=FRAME_4&~forcetarget=yes


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

OH yeah! There are a few posters on the walls at work that are double layers of foamcore (using black behind as a frame/matt effect) that are nicely curled, with the top board peeling away on some. They were meant to be temporary for a CEO visit, but then the managers like 'em and they stay up. Well, mostly up.

And as for structural foamcore warping, well, here's a lovely basswood staircase mary built on a dollhouse made from 1/4" foamcore:
http://www.inpayne.com/dollhouse/dollhouse01b2.html

that's why she got the 1/2" stuff for the latest house.


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## bccanfield (Nov 17, 2002)

You know when I first looked at those pics I thought it was a life size set (Scale=1 to 1). The wood supports look like 2x4s. It was not until I saw the ruler in one of the earlier pics that I realized it was actually a model.


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## heiki (Aug 8, 1999)

Do you know if they have sheets of plastic or PVC that can handle the heat in a laser printer?


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

None that I know of. The fuser can get up to about 400° and warps or melts most soft plastics.


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## jheilman (Aug 30, 2001)

*boards*

Have you guys ever used gator board? Still foam-based inside, but structurally stable surface on the outside. I used it for years when I mounted posters at work. I have one at home that has been mounted for at least 10 years and is still perfectly flat.

http://www.artgrafix.com/boards.htm

I'm sure it's more expensive, but for projects that have to last, it may be the way to go.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

heiki said:


> Do you know if they have sheets of plastic or PVC that can handle the heat in a laser printer?


How thick does it have to be? Can it be transparent?
Epson inkjet printers can print on their plastic transparency sheets and they use no heat. Don't know what the thickest transparencies they have available, but they have tons of different options on their papers, perhaps they have thick transparencies too...

checkout Epson.com


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

ThomasModels said:


> I looked for the plastic clad stuff but could not find sheets large enough and quanity to build based on what I wanted to spend.
> 
> Do you have a source for that stuff?
> 
> I just hope this room lasts long enough to get the shots we need. It's big, but looking at it in person is much different from seeing it in photos. Hopefully, the moving camera and lower frame rate will 'hide' some things that are visable in the stills.


Plastruct sells it. And on most of their stuff you can call and special order larger sizes then what is in their catalog.


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## dru (Dec 18, 2003)

Chuck_P.R. said:


> How thick does it have to be? Can it be transparent?
> Epson inkjet printers can print on their plastic transparency sheets and they use no heat. Don't know what the thickest transparencies they have available, but they have tons of different options on their papers, perhaps they have thick transparencies too...
> 
> checkout Epson.com


There are transparency sheets specifically made for laser printers. Here's a comparison chart at 
staples.com


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## heiki (Aug 8, 1999)

What would be better than transparency sheets are white plastic sheets which could be glued to other materials. One could printout 2-D images and glue together a model.


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

The handrails and stairs are primered and placed to check alignment/fit:
http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/engrm40.jpg

Captain Archer investigates:
http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/engrm41.jpg


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Neat! I never realized those stairs were so steep!


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## beeblebrox (Jul 30, 2003)

ThomasModels said:


> Captain Archer investigates:
> http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/engrm41.jpg


"Found it! Over here Tripp! It's the Plot Contrivance Switch." :devil:


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

LOL!

Support structures are painted:
http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/engrm42.jpg


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## woozle (Oct 17, 2002)

Don't get me wrong, it's masterful work and I can't wait to see the finished version... but This is just a thought.. how can you have a row of windows on the curved outer hull directly above rooms like that? On the (unseen) port side, there is an upstairs room where the port-side windows would be. Hmm.. I suppose that woul dexplain why they where never fleshed-out on screen.


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

Thomas has a theory on that. I wishe he'd share it, tho, 'cause it's killin' me to know about it and not be able to say anything! :roll:


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

OK, here it is!


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## X15-A2 (Jan 21, 2004)

I had similar thoughts but my version was not so wide. The Engine Room "as designed" actually fits (pretty close) inside the Engineering Hull when that hull is scaled to the original 540 foot length of the ship. When that is done, the floor is just about on the horizontal centerline of the secondary hull or in other words, on the same level as the Hangar Deck floor. The ceiling arc just about matches the outer hull line at the point where the warp pylons attach to the hull too. This doesn't really matter in the case of this model project but it is interesting I think. So that makes the grill at the back of the room actually on the centerline of the smaller ship, as one would expect when watching the show. The bigger ship's Engine Room is another story altogether...


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## X15-A2 (Jan 21, 2004)

BTW, I love seeing the progress on your model, it is so cool!


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## KUROK (Feb 2, 2004)

*Great model*

Thom,

Love the model! :thumbsup: Now hurry up - chop, chop! I want to see the new Exeter episode....


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

Great model,Thomas. When are you going to sell kits of it?


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Griffworks said:


> Thomas has a theory on that. I wishe he'd share it, tho, 'cause it's killin' me to know about it and not be able to say anything!


Well, you just said something about it!


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

ThomasModels said:


> OK, here it is!


That does explain quite a bit of what has been seen in the various episodes. :thumbsup:


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## trekkist (Oct 31, 2002)

Darnit! That was "my" theory!

So...how close is a ship with "adjacent" engine rooms to being big enough to contain a hangar large enough to dwarf-as-depicted a 31-odd foot shuttlecraft?

David Winfrey


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

ThomasModels said:


> OK, here it is!


 AAAARGH!! That's ... that's ... a whole new idea. Brain. Must. Explode!


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

trekkist said:


> Darnit! That was "my" theory!


Now that you mention it, it seems we discussed this at some point in the past.

Well, no matter how many people come up with it, it's still an excellent idea. :thumbsup: 




> So...how close is a ship with "adjacent" engine rooms to being big enough to contain a hangar large enough to dwarf-as-depicted a 31-odd foot shuttlecraft?


Have you worked that out yet? Inquiring (and lazy) minds want to know


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## Nova Designs (Oct 10, 2000)

hehehe, I love that pic with Archer in it... and the following comment!


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## starmanmm (Mar 19, 2000)

Now there's a kit idea... engine room, transporter room, (already have a bridge kit), sickbay, shuttle bay area. If I could dream, RC should jump on this kit while the patterns are still fresh.


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## woozle (Oct 17, 2002)

Like this one?
http://www.trek5.com/lowerdecks/stage_model/


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## MGagen (Dec 18, 2001)

A very interesting proposition, Mr. S.

I must take a while to thoroughly digest this... :roll: 

If I may ask, at what point on the hull is the section cut? Also, I'm still curious what the real world size of the windows would be according to your set.

Mark


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

The loose parts are painted.

http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/engrm43.jpg


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## Stimpson J. Cat (Nov 11, 2003)

Those look great. I can't wait to see the whole thing together.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Looking great!


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

That photo proves that it is a kit. It will be for sale at Thomas Models retail store by Christmas.:jest:


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## Steven Coffey (Jan 5, 2005)

I want one!! :thumbsup:


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

Say uh......
When your done with that, I'd be glad to take that off your hands. :thumbsup:


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

Status panel:









Control panels:
http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/engrm44.jpg


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## Stimpson J. Cat (Nov 11, 2003)

Wow! Will those all be lit?


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

Nope.

The only lit areas will be the red alert indicators and the engine core. There may be a few lit indicators on the main room status boards. I don't know yet.


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## Nova Designs (Oct 10, 2000)

Hot damn that is looking so COOOOOOOOLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!! :thumbsup:


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## Steven Coffey (Jan 5, 2005)

Thomas, as always your work is incredible ! :thumbsup:


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

Thomas,

You should do a slot gag like on the original panel.


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## Four Mad Men (Jan 26, 2004)

I'm sitting here looking for John Davidson. That's Incredible!


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

If PL isn't able to do figure/stage set piece kits,
Wouldn't mind seeing this as an Art Asylum set.


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

Thomas is just showing off again. Good for us!! Maybe I should go to Birmingham to help Thomas.


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## Four Mad Men (Jan 26, 2004)

Would you please? I'm sure everyone involved would really appreciate that!


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## ClubTepes (Jul 31, 2002)

ThomasModels said:


> Thanks again, guys!
> 
> The footage will be shot by a professional local photographer and lighting guy with their equipment. I have no idea what they're going at use.


Thomas,

If they show up with a bag light and a couple of tota's, don't let them in the door. 

Some midgets and tweenies with lots of cookies in front is what this thing calls for.


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

Dylithium Chamber - Online!
http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/engrm46.jpg


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

Do ya have an Art Asylum "Scottie" to pose with your engine room ? :thumbsup:


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Wow! I want one of those to power my living room!


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

I see one of the construction crew is walking past for scale. :freak:


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## Bay7 (Nov 8, 1999)

Hey Thomas,


If you don't mind me asking - is this a commission jobby or a labour of love?

I tend to build quite ropey models and it costs a fortune - I was wondering how much this beastie has costed so far?

Cheers,

Mike


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

^^ Thomas will send you the bill!!


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## Treadwell (Aug 22, 2002)

Awesome!

Will the damage from the "crash" be reversible should you want to feature a pristine engine room in a future episode?


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

Egads! Now we know where the blood on the boards came from in the pic above that Thomas posted!  










*Reed:* Don't go near him, Captain. He might be rabid. 
*Archer:* I'll go get Phlox, then.


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

Four Mad Men said:


> I'm sitting here looking for John Davidson. That's Incredible!


The heck with Davidson !
I want Cathy Lee Cosby!!! :tongue:


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

^Id worry about what's on Reed's mind there... :freak:


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

JGG1701 said:


> The heck with Davidson !
> I want Cathy Lee Cosby!!! :tongue:


 Bill's daughter?


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

NO !
Bing's daughter, silly!  :roll:


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## Four Mad Men (Jan 26, 2004)

Who the heck is Bing Cosby??


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## beeblebrox (Jul 30, 2003)

You'll find him on the road to Morroco with Bob. :thumbsup:


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

Four Mad Men said:


> Who the heck is Bing Cosby??


Yer kiddin' me.........
Right ?


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## norge71 (Apr 13, 2004)

I think you mean Bing CROSBY.


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

^^^ You know what........... you're right.
I stand corrected. :drunk:


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

John P said:


> ^Id worry about what's on Reed's mind there... :freak:


What, advancement? 

*Reed:* I'd like you to meet our new chief engineer. You can call him Freddy. Nice chap. Go on, be a good chap and shake his hand....


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

Wait a minute I know who I was thinking of. 
Denise Crosby a.k.a. Tasha Yar.


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## Ignatz (Jun 20, 2000)

Engine room! Where's my drink?


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## spe130 (Apr 13, 2004)

Thomas, have you made a 1/8 scale bottle of Scotch for Scotty? :tongue:


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

JGG1701 said:


> Yer kiddin' me.........
> Right ?


 [smacks self on forehead]
This all started 'cause you said "Cathy Lee Cosby" instead of "Cathy Lee C_r_osby." I was riffing off the misspelling for the sake of humor. Everyone seems to have missed the joke. Never mind.

Crosby:









Cosby:









One letter can make a BIIIIG difference!


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## KUROK (Feb 2, 2004)

Joe Theisman left his wife and kids and ran off with her, at least that's what my dad told me at the time...


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## MGagen (Dec 18, 2001)

John P said:


> One letter can make a BIIIIG difference!


You're _right!_ Changing just one letter does make a difference. And that Cathy Lee Cosby guy looks just like Bill Cosby, too. I wonder if they're related?

[ducks for cover]


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## Steven Coffey (Jan 5, 2005)

This is what I truely love about this forum ! A thread starts in one direction and ends up where you never thought it would go!!!  Oh by the way ,I think Capt. Archer has other issues .........long space voyage locked up in his cabin with a......dog? Poor ,poor puppy!


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

Back to our regularly scheduled program....

The gray parts are expoxied in place:
http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/engrm48.jpg

Feature #5 of the Lloyd Collins Main Engineering Model Kit, the decals are applied!
http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/engrm49.jpg


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

Looking fantastic! :thumbsup: 

I get the first kit, right?  

Glad to see it coming along. July is still a long time till the film.


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## Four Mad Men (Jan 26, 2004)

This just gets better and better.

So how many is that now Lloyd? You've got Chuck building you a Galileo and a K-7, and Thomas building you an (ever so nice) engine room. How do you get all these people to do buildups for you?


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

You know how it is,if I tell you......


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

The yellow parts are stuck on:

http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/engrm50.jpg


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## Steven Coffey (Jan 5, 2005)

Great work Thomas ,I am going to have to befriend some of the guys from Exeter Studios just to see it up close!Do you think they would let me play a Klingon ,as an extra .You know something like Klingon #5 dies when the shuttle lands on him! :tongue:


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

ThomasModels said:


> The yellow parts are stuck on:
> 
> http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/engrm50.jpg


That room to the left visible through the open doorway looks like a miniature 21st century storeroom or workshop.


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## starmanmm (Mar 19, 2000)

It's almost like I am in the engine room of the set! Great job!!


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

"Stuck on," that's a technical modeler's term, right?


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

At this point I'm ready to brush some rubber cement on the loose parts, toss them in the general direction of this thing, and hope for the best.


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

Well what seems to be the problem Mr. Thomas ?


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

Hey, they fell into place!

http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/engrm52.jpg

Note the red circles on either side of the black recessed area, James. This is where the adjustable flip flop will show.


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## Nova Designs (Oct 10, 2000)

Wow! This just keeps getting better and better!


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

Thomas, you have good aim! I had noticed the flip flop. 

I noticed the engineering room changed during the series. So Thomas, does your model reflect the final set in the third season? Or just the average of what was seen?


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

My primary references were, "Doomsday", "Babel", "Changeling", and "Ultimate Computer".

I guess it reflects early second season as it does not have the comm viewer on the control console.

The consoles are attached:
http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/engrm53.jpg


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## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

remember, this is not the Enterprise. so it can be anyway and still be exactly correct!


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## jwrjr (Oct 31, 2003)

Actually, the "adjustable flip flop" refers to something that I'm building for Thomas.


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

It is good to have the DVDs to get the details. When I watched them I screen grabbed hundreds of shots. I hope one day to build the bridge model, and other rooms in the same scale. Engineering and the hanger deck are my favorite. That is why I am enjoying seeing the Exeter Engine room being built.


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

_*RARE*_
Behind the scenes image of a nearly complete redressed engine room.

http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/engrm54.jpg


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## Four Mad Men (Jan 26, 2004)

Brings a tear to me eye.


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## Steven Coffey (Jan 5, 2005)

Hey, Thomas the engine room looks great but I found it missing something so I added it. http://home.earthlink.net/~igonadie/engrm54a.jpg


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## Stimpson J. Cat (Nov 11, 2003)

Scotty looks right at home. I can tell by the expression on his face, he thinks everything looks ship shape. Great work Thomas! :thumbsup:


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Now that it's too late to repaint the walls - they look awfully white to me. Wasn't the set a bit of a darker gray than that?


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## Ziz (Feb 22, 1999)

That could just be the lighting Thomas used. It will be lit differently when photographed for Exeter.

C'mon, John. You take pics of your models all the time. You know the difference between "FX model colors" and "on screen colors". You know how lighting and exposure affect color. :thumbsup:


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## Nova Designs (Oct 10, 2000)

Yeah head on bright flash will wash out even dark gray sometimes.


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

The wall base color is a little light. Good catch John!
This model will be shot with little fill lighting and strong shadows.
http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/engrm55.jpg

The entire thing still has to be weathered, then have battle damage applied. It is the engine room to this ship:
http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/ks15.jpg

So the room will be weathered similarly. Also here is that same saucer prior to weathering:
http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/kongo/saucer/ksaucer09.jpg


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

You know when you're done filming , I have a place in my Star Trek room that it will go verrrrrrry nicely .  :thumbsup:


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

It, ah, would appear that ship doesn't HAVE an engine room .


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

Yet!


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## KUROK (Feb 2, 2004)

beauti-mous, Thom. Thanks for sharing the pics. This helps with the wait for the show's release this July...


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## woozle (Oct 17, 2002)

Thomas, what are we seeing, in the exposed bridge dome of the crashed primary hull? That doesn't look like a bridge.. does it make more sense in the video footage?


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## Steven Coffey (Jan 5, 2005)

I think I can tell you what you are seeing .The starship bridges where components that could be interchanged at will .So what you are seeing is where the bridge module plugged into the ship systems.


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

Give Thomas some time to finish. I like these step by step photos. 

Thomas,any plans for a book or how to video? Any making of on the official Exeter behind the scene DVD?


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## ClubTepes (Jul 31, 2002)

Lloyd Collins said:


> It is good to have the DVDs to get the details. When I watched them I screen grabbed hundreds of shots. I hope one day to build the bridge model, and other rooms in the same scale. Engineering and the hanger deck are my favorite. That is why I am enjoying seeing the Exeter Engine room being built.


I've always wanted to build an engine room in the same scale as the bridge kit.

I guess the next step is to build the entire sound stage complete with people, cameras, lights and ummmmm.......craft service.


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

. . . . Hey, craft services!


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

[Riker]Mmmmm....donuts...[/Riker]


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## starmanmm (Mar 19, 2000)

Modeling question for you Thomas, regarding the damage to the warp engines. Do you plan on thinning out the edges where the rips are to meet the correct scale? If not, would that not make the walls/panels looking too thick?

I have been enjoying your work tremodously!


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## portland182 (Jul 19, 2003)

Thomas

Get some one to shoot very high quality stills and/or video from many angles for stock footage before you 'damage' it! 
You may save yourself some time and effort in the future!

Cheers

Jim


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## Barry Yoner (Mar 6, 1999)

Really impressed how it's coming along, Thomas! I hope you get some pics of it finished but before it goes into action. So to speak.


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## KUROK (Feb 2, 2004)

Awesome, Thom!

Starship Exeter Minis


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## Stimpson J. Cat (Nov 11, 2003)

Hey Kurok, great link. I'm looking forward to seeing more of the shuttle bay. Neat stuff.


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## Trekfreak (Mar 26, 2005)

MASTER!  
WE'RE NOT WORTHY!
WE'RE NOT WORTHY!


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

Thanks!

Speaking of shuttle bays, does anyone have a shuttle kit they will be willing to donate, trade or sell? I am one or two short as they are needed for a shot within the bay.


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## Steven Coffey (Jan 5, 2005)

I have one .I PMed you about it.


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## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

ThomasModels said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Speaking of shuttle bays, does anyone have a shuttle kit they will be willing to donate, trade or sell? I am one or two short as they are needed for a shot within the bay.


They had a SHuttle Bay kit out? Who made it?


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

I see Thomas is showing off again. That is good for us! I really like the buildings. This will be good to see the difference CGI, and model look in the films. Max did the CGI in NV, and now Thomas's models. July is still a long time to wait.


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

A couple of small updates:

http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/engrmtake2.jpg

http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/engrmtake1.jpg

PLUS, a sneak peak at the conclusion of _Starship Exeter_!
http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/powerup1.wmv


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## JeffG (May 10, 2004)

Man does that bring back memories! Like when those two guys pretending to be Kirk and Khan were fighting and....oooops, guess they didn't need high resolution back then. Excellent work though.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

ThomasModels said:


> PLUS, a sneak peak at the conclusion of _Starship Exeter_!
> http://www.thomasmodels.com/exeter/powerup1.wmv


 
What, no Riker or Troi?


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## Stimpson J. Cat (Nov 11, 2003)

Wow, the engine room looks great. The bodies laying around give it a very dark feeling.


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

Say Mr. Thomas,
Can I have that engine room when yer done with it ? :thumbsup:


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## ccbor (May 27, 2003)

I'm breathless!

keep up the Great work! Please!!


Rob


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

Can't wait to see it in the film. 13 days and counting down to release date.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

Lloyd Collins said:


> Can't wait to see it in the film. 13 days and counting down to release date.


Film?


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## woozle (Oct 17, 2002)

Yup.. it's a direct to celulous release.


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

Direct to _what_ release?


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

And who is this "lous" of whom you speak?


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

I think he meant 'cellulite'....


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## Four Mad Men (Jan 26, 2004)

Wouldn't that be "celluloid"?


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## Four Mad Men (Jan 26, 2004)

Amazing Thomas. Simply amazing. I had the wife convinced the engineering set was full scale, and then unpaused the video and in walks the kitty. My arm still hurts over that one.


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## enterprise_fan (May 23, 2004)

John P said:


> Get the poster HERE
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All I get is a bunch of RED XXXXXXX's


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Hm. Me too.

Well, go to the main page:
http://www.intergalactictrading.com/
And search for "cutaway poster"


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## Captain April (May 1, 2004)

enterprise_fan said:


> All I get is a bunch of RED XXXXXXX's


Showed up fine for me.


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## KUROK (Feb 2, 2004)

I'm a firm believer that the main engineering is indeed in the secondary hull.
However, I was watching "The Ultimate Computer" the other day and they entered engineering from a curved corridor. Of course that's how TOS shooting sets were laid out. Maybe that's what Franz went off of to put it in the saucer, eh?


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

KUROK said:


> I'm a firm believer that the main engineering is indeed in the secondary hull.
> However, I was watching "The Ultimate Computer" the other day and they entered engineering from a curved corridor. Of course that's how TOS shooting sets were laid out. Maybe that's what Franz went off of to put it in the saucer, eh?


Logical deduction!


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## Captain_April (Oct 20, 2002)

How about an update on your site for the shuttlecraft, I would love to see the ship finished.


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## enterprise_fan (May 23, 2004)

KUROK said:


> I'm a firm believer that the main engineering is indeed in the secondary hull.
> However, I was watching "The Ultimate Computer" the other day and they entered engineering from a curved corridor. Of course that's how TOS shooting sets were laid out. Maybe that's what Franz went off of to put it in the saucer, eh?


Back when Star Trek was in it's hayday there was a paperback book printed. I am not sure of what the correct name of the book is but I think it was "The Making of Star Trek". Inside there were a few pages of what the sets looked like.

I don't have the book right in front of me to scan in the drawing. So I will try to describe what the drawings looked like from memory. I hope my memory is still good.

TOS was filmed on one sound stage so space was a premium. All the sets had removeable wall for ease of filming. The only sets they had were the Main Bridge and Main Engineering and about 45 degrees of curved corridor. 

The curved corridor that they had extended just out of camera range. Along this curve corridor were rooms that were used for various Crews quarters, Sick Bay and Medical labs, etc. Close to one end of the corridor, at 90 degrees angle, was a straight corridor with the tubolift at the end. The Rec room/Briefing room on left side of the corridor and on the right side was the Transporter room.

If anyone has the book could you please scan the page for the group to see.

Keep the above information in the back of your mind when you watch TOS.

They had to make an entire starship out of these sets. So what if there were inconsistancies (spelling?)  in the show we still watched it didn't we.


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## ccbor (May 27, 2003)

I have the book all right but I don't have a scanner, Sorry. But you described the two pages very well. Good memory!! I do have a friend who is going to scan the Refit aztec temps, so I'll bring along the book.

Rob
ps: pm me as to remind me please I might forget.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Better yet,look at the scale model of the stage layout that Matt Jefferies himself built.










Engineering is at the bottom left, behind the "set layout" placard.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

I think one must forgive necessity in this case. In addition, if you look at the drawings, you'll see that there's a straight walled, foyer-like, room or two which suggests that it was meant to be used instead of the curved corridor to suggest its location in the secondary hull. If the directors incorrectly used the set, it's no fault of the initial design and itsn't, IMHO, a glaringly obvious mistake.


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## enterprise_fan (May 23, 2004)

John P said:


> Better yet,look at the scale model of the stage layout that Matt Jefferies himself built.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you John P for ther link. I couldn't remember the location engineering in the sound stage but I knew it was there somewhere. :thumbsup:


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## Captain April (May 1, 2004)

It should be noted that the red lines on the edges of that model represent the walls of the soundstage. Space was at a major premium. I'm not sure how they could've put Engineering off of a straight corridor if they'd wanted to.

BTW, just for the uninitiated, that model was to show what Stage 8 would look like if all the sets were up at the same time, which they never were. The purpose was to help directors plan out their shooting schedule, figure out which sets they'd need, and which ones to take down.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

I was really disappointed when Thomas made it clear he wasn't going to make this engine room into a kit.

Is there any chance of maybe a set of blueprints?

(Sending this out via Subspace radio. Thomas is still a member I believe. Maybe he's close enough to hear this transmission and respond.)

Got your ears on?


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