# Reproduction? Or recreation?



## StyreneDude (Nov 16, 2012)

I recently purchased an original 1972 Aurora Glow Hunchback MIB and just for the heck of it decided to pull out my PL 2010 reissue and compare parts.

I was absolutely stunned by what I found. I fully expected to see some softening of the detail on the PL kit, but instead, I found that many parts of the kit had been completely resculpted...some unnecessarily IMO. 

For example...the deep woodgrain of the base and wheel on the original were completely eliminated and redone with a much lighter surface grain that doesn't even follow the original grain. The original nameplate was retooled as well...the thickness and spacing of the letters is completely different, and the coarse texture on the original clothing was erased and replaced with a much finer texture. Also, a mole was added to his upper left lip on the PL kit.

What I would like to know is why these changes were done and not disclosed, as I feel it takes the kit from being a true reproduction to more of a close approximation of the original. If they were done purposely to differentiate it from an original kit that's fine...just say so on the box. 
Don't get me wrong...I'm glad PL has re-released all the kits they have. It's just as a consumer, I'd like to know what I'm really buying. I'll definitely be seeking out more original Auroras now to see if the details have been similarly changed on other PL releases.


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

It is well known that Polar Lights had to cut an all new mold for their Hunchback (and Witch... and Bride of Frankenstein... and Lost in Space Robot, etc.) as the original Aurora molds are long gone.

Likewise, Moebius reverse engineered original kits to make new molds for the Aurora Moon Bus, Monster Scenes, Confederate Raider, Superboy and Wonderwoman, Dr. Jekyll, the MotM Creature and probably a couple of others.

Reverse engineering a mold from an existing kit is not really new. It's been going on for a couple of decades now. Revell did the same thing too when they reissued the old Monogram Rommel's Rod, as the original mold was scrapped in the 70s.

I posted some comparison photos of the original Aurora Hunchback and the PL kit here some years back. 

A lot of the differences you see come from just being cheap about the reproduction. Polar Lights didnt take as much time as they could and copy fine details like wood grain. Some minor differences like the mole may have been done to help prevent the new kit from being passed off as an original. Revell did that in their Rommel's Rod... it has a few slightly different parts than the original and is in a different color plastic. The name plate in the Polar Lights Hunchback has always been a bone of contention. Originally, PL was sued by Disney so the kit had to be sold as the Bellringer of Notre Dame. Later on, the Bellringer/Hunchback issue was worked out, and a new Hunchback name plate was quickly and cheaply tooled up for inclusion in the glow reissue.

A better recreation is the Atlantis Blackbeard kit. They went to great lengths to recreate the old Aurora kit. The Moebius kits are also really pretty well done. IN some cases the fit of the parts has been adjusted and the way the parts fit/lock together has been tweaked, but the finished models are a very good recreation.

And, in the end, it comes down to cost. You can buy a PL Glow Hunchback for $25 or a sealed original Aurora kit for $125...


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## Mark McGovern (Apr 25, 1999)

djnick66 said:


> ...in the end, it comes down to cost. You can buy a PL Glow Hunchback for $25 or a sealed original Aurora kit for $125...


Aye, there's the rub, deej! This issue came up years ago (ca. 1999?) and, IIRC, someone posted a comparison chart of the original Aurora monster models and their reissues. Regardless, I'd sooner have a reasonably priced close approximation than spend a fortune on an original kit. Let's also consider that only modelers of "a certain age" will be aware of the changes; these kits will all be new to younger modelers.

That said StyreneDude, you might have a point about stating on the packaging whether a model has been cast from original molds or back-engineered. I believe I've seen in PL's advertising that they've made such a statement. But it could also be done on the box with a "NEW AND IMPROVED!" blurb, which seems to work for dish soap and cereal...:freak:


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

*Reverse engineering was not new here in the United States, but was relatively new in Mainland China back then in the hobby plastic field, therefore the earlier PL repops were somewhat cruder, and got better as they went along. From what I was given to understand they did not use the copper inserts but straight swiss grade steel, hence less detail on the figure kits. As time went by and new orders kept rolling in, the process improved, as PL's later kits showed. Atlantis used a different factory than PL uses, and of course its 20 years after Tom Lowe started the repop genre so naturally the process is greatly improved from back in the beginning, In addition, The factory would make tooling suggestions that they believed were better ( but probably easier) for them and said the tooling could be improved with them...Sometimes Pl went along, sometimes they didn't..I never had any real issue with any of the repops,and was just overjoyed to get them.They were not all that far off, imo. Of course, most all the universal Monster long box repops were made using the original aurora tooling, and shot by Revell for PL so there was never a detail issue with them, or shouldn't have been.

Z *


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## StyreneDude (Nov 16, 2012)

djnick66 said:


> It is well known that Polar Lights had to cut an all new mold for their Hunchback (and Witch... and Bride of Frankenstein... and Lost in Space Robot, etc.) as the original Aurora molds are long gone.
> 
> Likewise, Moebius reverse engineered original kits to make new molds for the Aurora Moon Bus, Monster Scenes, Confederate Raider, Superboy and Wonderwoman, Dr. Jekyll, the MotM Creature and probably a couple of others.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info DJ....I wasn't aware of the all new mold for the Hunchback. I did know about the nameplate issue as it kept me from buying the "Bellringer" back in the day. I knew some kits were reverse engineered, and as I mentioned, expected some softening of details, just not details that were purposely altered/resculpted. 

The amount of lost/altered detail on the Hunchback makes me prefer an original even at the extra cost. If you know of any others that were significantly changed I'd love to know so I can seek out originals.


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

Well I never had an original Witch, Bride of Frankenstein, Confederate Raider etc so I can't say if the new kit is better or worse or whatever.

I will say the fit of the Moebius kits is really good. So I can't complain there... The new Moon Bus goes together easily and cleanly compared to the original. Same with Dr. Jekyll, although there was an issue with the first run of the kits some years back, as Moebius had copied a poorly cast original so the head was missing it's teeth (Fixed for the later runs). 

Honestly, the Hunchback kit, while "different" in minor detail (texture mostly) from the original, is not really recognizably different unless you get the two kits and look at them very very closely. Yeah the wood grain and cloth texture are different but that doesn't jump out at you from more than 2 feet away.


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

djnick66 said:


> Well I never had an original Witch, Bride of Frankenstein, Confederate Raider etc so I can't say if the new kit is better or worse or whatever.
> 
> I will say the fit of the Moebius kits is really good. So I can't complain there... The new Moon Bus goes together easily and cleanly compared to the original. Same with Dr. Jekyll, although there was an issue with the first run of the kits some years back, as Moebius had copied a poorly cast original so the head was missing it's teeth (Fixed for the later runs).
> 
> Honestly, the Hunchback kit, while "different" in minor detail (texture mostly) from the original, is not really recognizably different unless you get the two kits and look at them very very closely. Yeah the wood grain and cloth texture are different but that doesn't jump out at you from more than 2 feet away.


*I placed both the Original Confederate raider and the Moebius duplicate parts side by side, and could find absolutely no difference that I could see. Same case with the last PL repops paticularly the witch, guillotine, and the later Bride of Frank..I'm still very happy I got them when I did. 

Z*


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## Rob P. (Jan 26, 2004)

The only re-release that I have a personal dislike of is the latest Revell release of Dracula and its completely redesigned head. Small detail changes such as mentioned above haven't bothered me. Overall I am happy to have what has been reissued by the various manufacturers. With out them, building the monsters I like would be cost prohibitive! And since I like the C.O.P.P. conversion items for use with the aurora figures as well, having the inexpensive kits available is an additional plus. 

Rob


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

The Revell Dracula reissue is different. It's the original Aurora mold but due to a suit by Bela Lugosi Jr. they had to replace the original head. The new one is not great but is actually better than the version shown on the box art.


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## Marko (Jul 11, 2002)

That's all great information. Glad you guys posted it. I knew there were differences, but not the specifics. My modeling pal had to have an original Big Frankie. I was pleased with the re-issue and it looked great painted on my shelf. To each, there own.


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

The newer reverse engineered kits are really quite good. Especially if you want to build it. You can put a finished, painted, Moebius Big Frankie next to an original and it would be pretty much impossible to tell them apart. I've sold off quite a few of my original kits when I heard the reissues were coming.


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

djnick66 said:


> The Revell Dracula reissue is different. It's the original Aurora mold but due to a suit by Bela Lugosi Jr. they had to replace the original head. The new one is not great but is actually better than the version shown on the box art.


*The new Revell Dracula head sucks 100% as much as possible .whoever sculpted that head, never saw any other Dracula rendition other than Bela, and he just did it to get as far away from Bela's likeness as possible..To me it loooks like a cheap A** piss poor animation drawing.In fact, it looks like he got it from the sesame street muppet of the count.. Understandable that due to litigation it had to be changed, but they really dropped the ball on that "upgrade"...once I opened the box and looked that that abortion, I gave it away to a local neighborhood kid. I'm glad I built mine many years ago with the Lugosi head, and have a double in the long box PL reissue..I'm not an "aftermarket " upgrade guy. I'm in it for the nostalgia of it all..I absolutely HATE when they "upsize" or upgrade a repop..I prefer it as it was originally released..But that's me..

Z *


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

djnick66 said:


> The newer reverse engineered kits are really quite good. Especially if you want to build it. You can put a finished, painted, Moebius Big Frankie next to an original and it would be pretty much impossible to tell them apart. I've sold off quite a few of my original kits when I heard the reissues were coming.


*By the way, the factory sent some "improved tooling " suggestions to Frank as well..he rejected them..

Z*


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

Zathros said:


> *The new Revell Dracula head sucks 100% as much as possible .whoever sculpted that head, never saw any other Dracula rendition other than Bela, and he just did it to get as far away from Bela's likeness as possible..To me it loooks like a cheap A** piss poor animation drawing.In fact, it looks like he got it from the sesame street muppet of the count.. Understandable that due to litigation it had to be changed, but they really dropped the ball on that "upgrade"...once I opened the box and looked that that abortion, I gave it away to a local neighborhood kid. I'm glad I built mine many years ago with the Lugosi head, and have a double in the long box PL reissue..I'm not an "aftermarket " upgrade guy. I'm in it for the nostalgia of it all..I absolutely HATE when they "upsize" or upgrade a repop..I prefer it as it was originally released..But that's me..
> 
> Z *


Well it wasnt supposed to be an upgrade it was either not reissue the kit at all. You miss the point its NOT supposed to resemble Lugosi at all. Honestly, the original kit head isnt that great either. There are several better resin replacements out now, including a straight recast of the Aurora head. I used a Luminator head on my kit. I have maybe 15 various reissues of the Aurora Drac anyway to take parts from. I don't think the new parts were too bad for being a generic vampire head. It rather looks like Christoper Lee actually. Also spare Aurora heads are easy to come by off eBay.


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## spawndude (Nov 28, 2007)

You can reverse the process and make a mold from a cast (the model itself) and then another cast from this mold. True this requires special materials and skill but it can be done.
The main problem of course is like in the old days of dupping a video tape. Each generation loses some detail and the copied mold itself eventually wears out. I'm thinking this is how the recasters copy resin kits.


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

spawndude said:


> You can reverse the process and make a mold from a cast (the model itself) and then another cast from this mold. True this requires special materials and skill but it can be done.
> The main problem of course is like in the old days of dupping a video tape. Each generation loses some detail and the copied mold itself eventually wears out. I'm thinking this is how the recasters copy resin kits.


Well yeah resin kits are produced from rubber molds and you can make a new mold off an existing kit. A resin kit company would pull new molds off their master, but the process is the same.

But, plastic kits are generally cast from metal, machined, molds and the process is totally unlike what is used for resin kits. Plus the mold cutting process is vastly more expensive. True a few kits are run from cast epoxy molds or other methods to do limited runs, but most kits still come from fairly traditional metal plate molds.


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

djnick66 said:


> Well it wasnt supposed to be an upgrade it was either not reissue the kit at all. You miss the point its NOT supposed to resemble Lugosi at all. Honestly, the original kit head isnt that great either. There are several better resin replacements out now, including a straight recast of the Aurora head. I used a Luminator head on my kit. I have maybe 15 various reissues of the Aurora Drac anyway to take parts from. I don't think the new parts were too bad for being a generic vampire head. It rather looks like Christoper Lee actually. Also spare Aurora heads are easy to come by off eBay.


*No, DJ, I did not miss the point. I completely understand that it had to be redone to avoid litigation from Bela Jr. on his fathers likeness, I think you rather miss my point, that to me, it doesn't even resemble a reasonable likeness of a humanoid vampire, but looks more like a poorly done "animated characterization" of one. I can't see any resemblance to Christopher Lee, myself..as I said, they could have done a much better job than they did, imo.

Z*


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

djnick66 said:


> Well yeah resin kits are produced from rubber molds and you can make a new mold off an existing kit. A resin kit company would pull new molds off their master, but the process is the same.
> 
> But, plastic kits are generally cast from metal, machined, molds and the process is totally unlike what is used for resin kits. Plus the mold cutting process is vastly more expensive. True a few kits are run from cast epoxy molds or other methods to do limited runs, but most kits still come from fairly traditional metal plate molds.


*Except these Revell Universal Monster reissues. Aurora made them with steel molds and had beryllium copper inserts, since figure kits have alot of curved and rounded contours that cannot be cut well in Swiss grade steel. Virtually all of Aurora's figure kits had that kind of tooling, since copper was far cheaper back then,and Aurora was the leader at that time, in that innovation, which produced superior quality, detail and part fit.

Z*


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

Zathros said:


> *Except these Revell Universal Monster reissues. Aurora made them with steel molds and had beryllium copper inserts, since figure kits have alot of curved and rounded contours that cannot be cut well in Swiss grade steel. Virtually all of Aurora's figure kits had that kind of tooling, since copper was far cheaper back then,and Aurora was the leader at that time, in that innovation, which produced superior quality, detail and part fit.
> 
> Z*


Same difference. I mean that injection kits come from a metal mold (a lot of the Aurora stuff was hand cut actually) versus resin kits which are made from a rubber mold. The idea being that it is easier to make a recast of a resin kit than a plastic kit, as you need to duplicate the whole metal mold as PL and Moebius have done.

The Schiffer Aurora book explains how some of the Aurora molds were made and used too. Useful info.


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## SteveR (Aug 7, 2005)

When I saw the title of this thread I thought it would be about something else. 

Carry on!


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## Frankie Boy (Feb 28, 2002)

SteveR said:


> When I saw the title of this thread I thought it would be about something else.
> 
> Carry on!


LOL.:thumbsup:


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## Buc (Jan 20, 1999)

I'm still chuckling at them calling it 're-engineered'!


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## StyreneDude (Nov 16, 2012)

SteveR said:


> When I saw the title of this thread I thought it would be about something else.
> 
> Carry on!


Hey, what you do with your models when nobody is looking is your business.

:lol:


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

djnick66 said:


> Same difference. I mean that injection kits come from a metal mold (a lot of the Aurora stuff was hand cut actually) versus resin kits which are made from a rubber mold. The idea being that it is easier to make a recast of a resin kit than a plastic kit, as you need to duplicate the whole metal mold as PL and Moebius have done.
> 
> The Schiffer Aurora book explains how some of the Aurora molds were made and used too. Useful info.


*Every model kit starts out as an acetate (back then) hand carved pattern, be it resin, styrene, abs or whatever. Today of course, a pattern isn't even needed. It can be done simply from mechanical drawings..the difference is that a Steel mold will outlast the dinosaurs, and has a practically unlimited production life compared to RTV rubber,as we have seen from the many times the Aurora Universal Monsters have been re-issued. .

Z *


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

Zathros said:


> *Every model kit starts out as an acetate (back then) hand carved pattern, be it resin, styrene, abs or whatever. Today of course, a pattern isn't even needed. It can be done simply from mechanical drawings..the difference is that a Steel mold will outlast the dinosaurs, and has a practically unlimited production life compared to RTV rubber,as we have seen from the many times the Aurora Universal Monsters have been re-issued. .
> 
> Z *


well yeah, I know that...

Hasegawa used to do some of their masters from wood. They used to show some of the wood patterns in their old catalogues.


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

djnick66 said:


> well yeah, I know that...
> 
> Hasegawa used to do some of their masters from wood. They used to show some of the wood patterns in their old catalogues.



* What is interesting to me, is that injection steel molds for hobby kits were used primarily by the kit industry since back then, production numbers were always high. Aurora's runs would be generally 65,000 units to start, and of course, the hobby was massively more popular than it is today. With today's runs of 4,000-6,000 units at best on some kits, perhaps some manufacturers may do away with Steel molds for kit manufacture, if Rubber is cheaper and I am guessing it very well may be since large production numbers are no longer required,since demand is so low compared to the heyday of kit manufacture..To me the question would be...how many kits can be produced before a rubber mold "burns out"??

Z *


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## TAY666 (Jan 8, 2000)

Zathros said:


> * To me the question would be...how many kits can be produced before a rubber mold "burns out"??
> 
> Z *


Depends. Resin casting, you can possibly get 100 pulls from a mold. Depending on undercuts, type of rubber used, etc.
Can't really use rubber for styrene though. Styrene requires injection molding. Which requires high pressures that would blow out a rubber mold.

Now, I don't know if they could save a little money by making the cavities out of steel instead of beryllium. Steel is cheaper. But don't know if it would be cheap enough to offset the longer cycle times needed for the parts to cool properly. Also, not sure if there are any differences in cost between the two for the actual tooling up process.


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