# No handling pans. No weighted front wheels. Just a chunk of good ol' lead.



## ParkRNDL (Mar 20, 2002)

I LOVE the new AW Release 6 Tjets, but as I get to tuning them and removing the dot magnets from them, the problem I have is that they lift the pin out of the slot under power. I needed to drop a little weight in them to settle them down. But where to find heavy material that was easy to work with in small amounts?

After rummaging a little, I found an Atlas weight similar to this one that went with a '62 Impala. It cuts easily with a knife, so I cut a piece that would fit between the "frame rails" in the front axle section of the chassis. I folded and rolled it so that I had a cylinder-looking piece with a flat bottom that would fit behind the axle in LWB position:










Here it is in place. When the car is together, the underside of the hood keeps the weight from going anywhere...










It's a little trickier with SWB, but I put something together. I found a huge chunk of lead strips I used back when I ran 1/25 hardbodies, and sliced one up to make this work under the GT40. (If you're doing this, notice that I had to grind away a good bit of the headlight piece under the body to make everything fit):










So far it seems to have worked better on the Riviera than the GT...

--rick


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## ParkRNDL (Mar 20, 2002)

*Aaaaand it wasn't enough on the GT.*

Dunno if the GT is just all ate up with motor, or if the difference is those fat sticky Weird Jack's gumballs out back as opposed to the skinny silicones on the Riviera, but the GT continued to power its guide pin right out of the slot on straightaways. So it was back to the drawing board, or the lead pile in this case. I fashioned this little widget and trimmed it till it fit and stuck it over the front screwpost, and now the car can keep its nose down on acceleration.



















Does lead conduct electricity? I was a little nervous about the pickup shoes shorting across it, so I trimmed the sides away pretty good...

I realize, of course, that it would be significantly less Fred Flintstone to just restrict the pickup shoe travel instead of throwing all these bricks in the nose, but I've destroyed every set of JL/AW shoes I tried to modify by folding over the tops, and I haven't found heat shrink tubing small enough to do it that way...

--rick


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## T-Jet Racer (Nov 16, 2006)

yes lead does conduct, it is a component in solder.
I use aluminum wheel balance weights they are lead but have sticky tape on them to keep them put!


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## bobhch (Apr 22, 2007)

Hey rick great idea to keep the front end down. 

If you have any plastic goop you could put a fine layer over your Lead and that would stop any electrical problems.

Bob...goop her up...zilla


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

*Un-leaded from the stone age*

Just for the record I've always found AW's T-jets to be over sprung. For that matter many cars I build require something in the way of shoe voodoo. By the time you get everything dialed in and smoothed out they still hop the slot when ya whack the juice...or tip over in the corners. The better they run the worse the tendency seems to be. 

Over springing causes all kinds of aggrevation. So here's a review of my ancient trick. Maybe not for everybody but once you acquire a feel for it; you'll never have to cut springs, fart around with shrink tubing or bending hanger windows on normal ride height chassis. It requires no added or extra parts. Just bring your noodle knees pliers. 

[ame]http://s44.photobucket.com/albums/f30/modelmurdering/?action=view&current=MOV05621.flv[/ame]

Additional note: Remember to check your contact patch after you tweak the shoe hooks!!!

For a good read... check the HO-World Archives under shoe tuning.


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## SuperFist (Aug 7, 2005)

*"Get the lead out..."*

A GT40 loaded down with lead. :lol:

__________________


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## rideinstile (Dec 26, 2007)

T-Jet Racer said:


> yes lead does conduct, it is a component in solder.
> I use aluminum wheel balance weights they are lead but have sticky tape on them to keep them put!


Wow, I never thought of that, I'm going to have to try that. I've been messing around with springs with some good results. Sometimes just puting in Xtra traction springs helps. But I'm definitely going to try the weights. Thanks for the tip!!!


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## BrentCorvette (Jun 11, 2008)

Lead poisoning...


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## bobhch (Apr 22, 2007)

*Your way, his way, her way or any way that works...*

I'm going to try Bills ancient trick on the shoes...thanks Bill for the video. 

Bob...will try anything to make a car run better...zilla


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## LeeRoy98 (Jul 8, 2005)

Simple and easy masking tape to restrict the shoe travel, or the rubber bands as posted on my website should assist in keeping the nose down. Others bend the pickups to accomplish the same but I have never been proficient with that method.

Gary
AKA LeeRoy98
www.marioncountyraceway.com


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Just a refresher of an old post to compliment Bill's video...had some good side-by-side shots here:

It's been a few years now since the release of the Johnny Lightning (now AutoWorld) Thunderjet reproduction, and it seems we've pretty much found most of the ways to make these quirky little cars driveable. One of the problems has always been that when they do run good, the front end is very jumpy. Full throttle on the straights can often lead to a de-slot as the car starts doing "wheelies", in part due to the torque but as many of us who've raced them know the cars seem to be "oversprung", leading many of us to resort to shoe restricting and cutting or compressing springs to help alleviate the problem. Looking closer at the shoe/spring setup, we can see where the real problem lies....in the rear bend leading to the shoe's hook. As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words, so hear is another pictorial to demonstrate. 

Below is a stock Autoworld chassis. To help demonstrate this "tweak", one shoe has been replaced with an original copper Aurora T-Jet shoe for comparison. With the shoes unhooked and resting on the springs, notice how much higher the silver AutoWorld shoe (in back of photo) sits: 









The problem is the last bend before the hook: 










The angle of this bend affects the "preload" of the spring as the shoe is installed. As you can see below, with the shoes flush with the front tires, the Autoworld shoe (now in the front of the photo) has the spring fully compressed and that's not even accounting for rail height, which would put even more pressure on this spring's coils. Notice how with the Aurora shoe, in the rear, the coils are still slightly separated, allowing the spring to function. 










This picture shows the sloppy AutoWorld bend compared to the sharp, more pronounced bend in the Aurora shoe. 










To fix the AutoWorld shoes, you have to sharpen this bend. To do so, simply grab the shoe tightly at the bend and push the hook down. You only need to go a very little bit to make a big difference. The "after" pic is a little too much, but it demonstrates the direction you need to go. If you go too far you will end up will too little spring tension, resulting in a loss of speed. Like front contact patch setup, this area has a sweet spot that you'll find with a little practice. 










As you can see, the result leaves you with a spring that can do it's job correctly. 










It's very clear in this side by side before/after picture. 










After trying this on a few cars, all I can say is wow! With sticky tires the cars are still a little jumpy due to torque, but the overall handling improvement is phenominal and the cars are much smoother on the track! If rules allow shoe restriction to help cure the wheelies, combined with this tip you'll have a raceworthy and potentially winning setup!


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## ParkRNDL (Mar 20, 2002)

WOW. Between Bill's video and Gene's pics, this is AWESOME information. i'm gonna try this later; maybe I can use it to get the lead out... :lol:

--rick


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## BrentCorvette (Jun 11, 2008)

Stop messing around and get some slottech shoes.


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## Dslot (Sep 2, 2007)

*Thanks!!!!*

Rick's and Bill's and Gene's posts remind me why this is my go-to forum for slot info. Not only do these guys generously share their methods, knowledge and experience, but they go above-and-beyond, taking the time to create fantastic visuals showing exactly how it's done.

*HobbyTalk-Slot Cars* is a truly amazing place.
:thumbsup:  :thumbsup:
-- D


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

Great pics Gene, yer always numero uno with the great macro stills!


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

Thanks a bunch to Bill and Gene.

The shoe hook bend should work nicely even for Aurora shoes where the springs are too strong (or too weak), shouldn't it?

I'm sure not all Aurora shoes are bent exactly the same way either, so some tuning could also be done there.

Joe


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

Grandcheapskate said:


> Thanks a bunch to Bill and Gene.
> 
> The shoe hook bend should work nicely even for Aurora shoes where the springs are too strong (or too weak), shouldn't it?
> 
> ...


Absolutely Joe! Works on AFX as well; however due to the smaller shoe hook and over all smaller shoe dimensions in general, it is a bit more difficult to execute, and waaaay easier to muff it until you learn. I do them all the time without so much as a second thought.

Probably the easiest way is to do one at a time so you have a reference point to go back to if your unsure. Get one done and match the feel of the second one to it.

The "whoops point" would be when the shoe's upper hanger windowsill doesnt snap back against the front chassis tabs and the shoe just lays there lame. I dont worry too much about it so long as the shoe can snap itself back up when compressed and released... that's where I start. I run a few laps to scuff a burn into the contact patch and adjust the footprint. 

Once you attain the muscle memory of the bending the hook and what the shoe pressure should feel like, you'll chuckle to yourself. Ideally one would like to have a balance between the lightest amount of rail drag on the contact patch but still maintain enough current flow to meet the demand.


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

I was thinking that relieving some of the spring tension should aid in the smoothness you can get when going from piece to piece on plastic track. The less tension on the shoes, the less likely they would be to "plow" into the rail joints.

Joe


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Grandcheapskate said:


> I was thinking that relieving some of the spring tension should aid in the smoothness you can get when going from piece to piece on plastic track. The less tension on the shoes, the less likely they would be to "plow" into the rail joints.
> 
> Joe


 
Actually Joe, when I bend the hooks as shown I usually stretch the springs a hair, especially if rules allow restricted shoes. As long as you can see a sliver of light between the coils, the spring will be able to absorb the shock encountered across normal plastic track joints.

:thumbsup:


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

*skkkkkkkk er shhhhhhhhh*



Grandcheapskate said:


> I was thinking that relieving some of the spring tension should aid in the smoothness you can get when going from piece to piece on plastic track. The less tension on the shoes, the less likely they would be to "plow" into the rail joints.
> 
> Joe


No doubt! 

It MOST certainly helps in slowing contact patch wear, but shoes are a NWI (normal wear item) and should always be considered as such. 

There really is no substitute for massaging rail joints and proper toe of the frontal contact patch. IMHO the three techniques must work in unison to have the desired/maximum effect.

The first clue is auditory. Ask yerself....Do my shoes go skkkkkkkkkkk! or shhhhhhhhhhhhh...?


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## Dslot (Sep 2, 2007)

Would there be any additional benefit to limiting shoe-travel by folding/taping/shrink-tubing the top of the riser in addition to bending the hook? Or do the two methods essentially accomplish the same thing, so only one or the other is needed?


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

They arent the same. The traditional method of limiting travel at the top of the window ADDS preload to the spring. The shoe hook bend LESSENS the springs pre-load. One could use the bend to lessen the effects of restricted shoe pre-load.


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

I've always felt that the rear hook bend has less to do with spring tension and more to do with the fact that you are allowing the spring to function like a spring instead of a metal wedge that transfers the energy of any bumps directly to the chassis in an upward fashion. I think two points Bill hinted to are far more important in reducing the clickety-clack effect...joint maintenance and shoe geometry.

To the original topic, short of adding weight to the JL/AW tuffie, another good area to experiment is tires. The great Penn Valley tires and those like them can create wheelie problems on a sticky track...sometimes switching to something like a SuperTire with good but a little less grip can make a huge difference in how the cars handle off the line.

:thumbsup:


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## Joe65SkylarkGS (Feb 15, 2010)

I have a couple of those heavy brass bolt on bottoms in my stock. Are these junk nowadays?:dude:

Anyone use them?


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## Roddgerr (Feb 8, 2006)

Bill, Gene,
I tried the bending the pick up shoe thing today on a JL Thunderjet. It worked great! Thank you very much for the tip.


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

I glued a small magnet under my chassis, and that seemed to clear things up good.


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## Brixmix (Dec 2, 2007)

The tips on spring tension are very good. That is how I adjust my shoe tension on all the style of shoes. but you can limit the travel as well which will really help keep the car in the slot. I like to limit the stock style shoes ( AML, Stock, MM) in the rear hanger, and since the stock AW shoes are brittle this method is much easy than trying to bend the front. I don't have any pictures but if you use duck bill pliers and get a grip on the rear of the shoe with the tip of the pliers at the center of the radius and flatten the very back part behind the radius. Then a little at a time twik it up.This is going to be a lot of trial and error to get the shoe travel just right. but a good starter is with the car flat on a tech block looking from the back of the car to the front the shoes come up at the same time the front tires do.


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## bobhch (Apr 22, 2007)

Bill Hall said:


> Great pics Gene, yer always numero uno with the great macro stills!


Those pics realy helped my simple mind figure out what you are both talking about....Thanks guys!


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## noddaz (Aug 6, 1999)

*But no...*



BrentCorvette said:


> Stop messing around and get some slottech shoes.


"messing around" is how we learn how to make these silly cars more fun...


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## noddaz (Aug 6, 1999)

*Sure...*



Joe65SkylarkGS said:


> I have a couple of those heavy brass bolt on bottoms in my stock. Are these junk nowadays?:dude:
> 
> Anyone use them?


Sure, handling pans have their place... Most classes do not allow them, but the pans can be fun to run.
I have one for an AF/x somewhere...
Scott


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## Joe65SkylarkGS (Feb 15, 2010)

noddaz said:


> Sure, handling pans have their place... Most classes do not allow them, but the pans can be fun to run.
> I have one for an AF/x somewhere...
> Scott


Thanks Scott. I'll bolt it on something and see the results.

Sorry I was a little off topis guys but saw the thread title and foolishly posted before reading the whole thread.''Lots of great advice and I allready applied it and had great results with these little tweaks.

Thanks.


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