# What the Refit could've looked like.



## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

Just thought you guys would like to see what "The Refit" could've looked like.
This is the first "Star Trek The Motion Picture" poster (before the "rainbow" one) Notice the deflector dish... it still has the antena. Even the nacelles look a little different.
I believe this drawing was done by the same guy who did the Star Wars ships.


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## lonfan (Feb 11, 2001)

Oh Yeah- I used to see that Ad in the Back of Comics of the Time. I Liked it,Wonder if it EVER made it to A One-sheet (Poster)?

JOHN/LONFAN


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

lonfan said:


> Oh Yeah- I used to see that Ad in the Back of Comics of the Time. I Liked it,Wonder if it EVER made it to A One-sheet (Poster)?
> 
> JOHN/LONFAN


Yes this is a poster. I had it matted and framed.
Poster is about 26 years old.


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

JGG1701 said:


> I believe this drawing was done by the same guy who did the Star Wars ships.


It's not a Ralph McQuarrie painting... Mike Minor, maybe. Anyone know for sure?


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## BEBruns (Apr 30, 2003)

Ralph McQuarrie did do some pre-production work on the STAR TREK revival, but his redesign of the Enterprise was radically different.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

That's total Phase II, there. It's not a very accurate version, however.


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

I still like that painting. I think the 1701 would have looked good with more windows.


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## Warped9 (Sep 12, 2003)

I find myself in the minority again because I was never found of the Phase II version and feel the way she turned out in _TMP_ was a big improvement.


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

Yea, one in every crowd!:jest:


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Warped9 said:


> I find myself in the minority again because I was never found of the Phase II version and feel the way she turned out in _TMP_ was a big improvement.


I go the other way. While I like the _1701_ movie refit, I prefer the _Phase II _ version since it was Jefferies' vision of the refit and more faithful to the original in details and styling.

I think that the model, with some minor improvements for lighting effects, would have been a really great looking ship more evocative of the original _TOS_ version than the movie refit turned out to be.


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

Agreed.

The design for the Phase-II was much more reminiscent of the original than the movie. The only thing similar to the movie version was the general shape of the nacelles and the swept back pylons. The saucer and secondary hull were very much like the original. In fact, those shapes look to me to be closer to the way the AMT kit was shaped than the eleven footer was shaped.

http://www.thomasmodels.com/phaseIIentsm.jpg

I wonder if it was possible that there was some tie in that AMT had at the time that helped determine the configuration of that ship? Possibly as a simple modification to the eighteen incher with another sprue of nacelle halves?

http://www.thomasmodels.com/mattjeffriesconc02sm.jpg

Nope the shape of the saucer rim and the 3 dimples on the saucer bottom. The three sets of concentic rings are even there!


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

I think without a doubt the fact that the prototype was apparently made from the AMT kit is the reason for the inclusion of AMT details in the artwork associated with the project. 

The small gray model that is visible in some pics of the large Phase II model under construction utilised the kit's primary and secondary hulls with scratchbuilt nacelles and pylons joined further up the secondary hull.


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

That small gray model in those pics is stock. It has no modified nacelles.


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## jbond (Aug 29, 2002)

I'm pretty sure that poster painting was done by John Berkey--he was doing a lot of movie posters around that period (he did the '76 King Kong one of Kong astride the WTC towers and a few Star Wars concept posters) and was famous for a kind of impressionist style.


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

It's not Berkey (Berkey can paint circles around whoever did the Enterprise stuff). I'm almost positive it's Mike Minor; Phil Broad would know for sure. Phil, you out there?...


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

This poster should be in the FAQ. Somebody re-discovers it about once a month and posts it again .


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

John P said:


> This poster should be in the FAQ. Somebody re-discovers it about once a month and posts it again .


Actually I didn't "re-discover" it. I have always had it.
I just wanted to share it with my fellow Trekkers/Modelers.


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## Warped9 (Sep 12, 2003)

Actually I think it may indeed be Berkey if I recall correctly. But Berkey has done much better work. I'm a fan of his and have a couple of books and numerous trading cards of his work. One of his paintings called Our Universe inspired my idea of what my starships could look like in my own sf concept.


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## flyingfrets (Oct 19, 2001)

Admittedly, I'm no expert on the Enterprise (or even a particularly rabid fan of Trek in general), but I *do* remember seeing TMP in the theater and when we first see the Enterprise in spacedock, I thought, "Holy Sh_t!!! That looks awesome!"

Didn't get that feeling again till I saw the test shots of the kit. As I said earlier, I'm not a big fan of Trek, but I always liked the design of the refit and with the excellence in execution of the model, it'll go on my "Must Have" list...as soon as it's available  .


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

ThomasModels said:


> http://www.thomasmodels.com/mattjeffriesconc02sm.jpg
> 
> A later version of the same Mike Minor painting shown above was featured on the cover of Starlog #25. What's interesting is that Minor simply painted over the first version, revising and adjusting the placement of the hull markings, and reworking the engines and secondary hull to arrive at a version which more closely resembles the Enterprise as seen in the film.


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

By the way, I've confirmed the teaser onesheet (see #1 above) was also painted by Minor while he was working with Matt Jefferies on Phase II. So far as I know, John Berkey has never worked on any "Star Trek" advertising campaign.


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## trevanian (Jan 30, 2004)

Sorry, but it IS Berkey. I was very hard to convince on this matter (I was sure it was Minor, revising his PHASE II stuff), but there was a thread on some trek site a few years back that proved it WAS Berkey (I believe a poster contacted the artist directly, something I should have done since I used to correspond with his son.) 

I'm a total Berkey nut, and even so it just never occurred to me that it was him, even though the style is clearly not Minor's. 

Don't know if it was trekbbs or someplace else though. Starfarer. org, maybe?


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## Steven Coffey (Jan 5, 2005)

I like that design ! If we ever get a 1/350 TOS Enterprise to go with the Refit we could combine the 2 and come up with that design.


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## Four Mad Men (Jan 26, 2004)

Warped9 said:


> I find myself in the minority again because I was never found of the Phase II version and feel the way she turned out in _TMP_ was a big improvement.


Agreed. I like the painting as it reminds me of the old Blish-era book covers but the window arrangement really derails it for me. And the pylons look too stubby.


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

i seem to recall (my mind had a number of chemical additives in the late 70s so my memory is sometimes shakey) that poster as a large cardboard standee.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Four Mad Men said:


> Agreed. I like the painting as it reminds me of the old Blish-era book covers but the window arrangement really derails it for me. And the pylons look too stubby.


I wouldn't call that poster representation a fair depiction of what the final product would have most likely looked like. Refer to Minor's painting and the blueprints to get a better idea.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

ThomasModels said:


> That small gray model in those pics is stock. It has no modified nacelles.


You know, I think I've made this exact mistake before. I don't have the reference books handy so I'm working off my faulty memory.

IIRC this time, it was a TV special that had one of the special effects fellows handling the modified AMT kit.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

I think these are screencaps from the show:

http://www.stguardian.to/fed/constitutionrefit/brickpriseenterprise.jpg

http://www.stguardian.to/fed/constitutionrefit/brickpriseenterprise01.jpg


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## Guy Schlicter (May 3, 2004)

Hi,I am a fan of the Original show.I was 13 when STTMP hit the movie screens,it was a great time in my life and further enhanced with AMTs great Motion Picture USS Enterprise model.One of my prime concerns for the first film was That they had kept the Enterprise close to the T.V.series Enterprise.What wound up happening was I saw the drydock sequence and loved the movie Enterprise.Prior to the movies release I thought they changed the Enterprise too much.One problem is is it believable the refitted Enterprise is still the Original Enterprise, could the old Enterprise have been redesigned to the extent it was,is it believable its the same ship,Thanks,Guy Schlicter.


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

trevanian said:


> Sorry, but it IS Berkey.


I stand corrected!

The good news is, thanks to this thread my usually reliable source (a marketing VP at Paramount, no less) now owes me fifty bucks.


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## jbond (Aug 29, 2002)

Hey--what about me? 

One of the giveaways that it's Berkey is the look of the small planets in the background; compare those to Berkey's Star Wars space paintings. It's certainly one of the more obscure Trek facts and clearly Berkey was off the project early on. I'd love to see what a final Berkey poster for TMP would have looked like...


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

jbond said:


> ...clearly Berkey was off the project early on...


My New and Improved "Trek" source (Rob Burnett, "Free Enterprise" director and Trek fan supreme) informs me that the Berkey Enterprise was originally painted for PhaseII, hence the deflector dish and other TOS-related details.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Carson Dyle said:


> . . . the Berkey Enterprise was originally painted for PhaseII, hence the deflector dish and other TOS-related details.


Its very obvious that is the case if you compare the details to the blueprints, especially regarding the engine details, significantly different from the versions developed after the TMP project got into gear and made changes to the ship design.


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## alpha-8 (Oct 31, 1999)

I was skimming through this threat and I am wondering if there are any pics of the completed phase II Enterprise. I am talking about the model seen in the History of Star Trek book. Was it ever completed? Could a refit be converted into the phase II ship?

Oh well,
Dave


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

the pahse 2 ship was "finished" after the project was converted over to a feature film, but whoever had posession of it altered some details to make it look more like the refit.

the proportions of the refit are too far off to try to turn it into a phase 2. you'd be better off starting with the 22 inch amt cutaway and converting that


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

I"ll back up what "razorwyre1" said on both counts. I don't recall right now who it was that got possession of the Phase II model, but the guy decided to "refit" it to look more like a Refit, which is a crime IMO. Should've left it "as-is" since it was a piece of history. 

Same w/the conversion of an existing scale model. Start w/the 22" cutaway and go from there, if you want. I'd suggest the Cutaway and Refit kits from ERTL to make it approximately 1/537 scale. You could do the same very easily in 1/2500 scale, as well. 

- - - - - - 

Jeffrey Griffin
Griffworks Shipyards
 
* * * * * *

Star Trek Scale Modeling WebRing


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

razorwyre1 said:


> . . . the proportions of the refit are too far off to try to turn it into a phase 2. you'd be better off starting with the 22 inch amt cutaway and converting that


I'm not so sure about that. The basic refit proportions of the primary and secondary hulls look to be pretty darned close to the Jefferies' Phase II refit proportions.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Ignoring the different impulse engines and bridge/b/c decks, the overall shapes of the hulls are identical (with the one possible exception--the Phase II hull may have a shorter rim height):


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

The engineering hulls are very similar in shape with the obvious exceptions of the shorter deflector section and the extended shuttlebay on the refit:


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Griffworks said:


> . . . I don't recall right now who it was that got possession of the Phase II model, but the guy decided to "refit" it to look more like a Refit, which is a crime IMO. Should've left it "as-is" since it was a piece of history.


  Couldn't agree more!


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## Joe Brown (Nov 16, 1999)

BEBruns said:


> Ralph McQuarrie did do some pre-production work on the STAR TREK revival, but his redesign of the Enterprise was radically different.


 Yes, and I bash'd one together, using 1/72 scale XF-92A wings, and a resin 1400 scale Refit......

http://www.spacemodelmania.com/models/wfest2k3/veh1_008s.jpg

There was 2 McQuarrie versions, one with a smaller secondary hull, and nacelles on really tall pylons. Mine is based on the larger secondary hull, with the much shorter pylons. And I went with the Movie version warp nacelles rather than the odd tubes that McQuarrie used....


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## Roguepink (Sep 18, 2003)

I like to bring this ol' thing up during Phase II discussions.

http://http://www.calormen.com/Star_Trek/SouthBend/

I had one. I STILL miss this toy. But if you look at the shapes, it is close to the Phase II design, where I think it was designed as a tie-in before the actual model was far enough in production to be accurately copied.

...and good luck finding one.


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

perfessor, i usually agree with you, but this time, as spock said "you proceed from a false assumption"... if you overlay the tos e with the phase 2 as you have done with the refit you'll see the shapes and proportions are much closer


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

razorwyre1 said:


> perfessor, i usually agree with you, but this time, as spock said "you proceed from a false assumption"... if you overlay the tos e with the phase 2 as you have done with the refit you'll see the shapes and proportions are much closer



Sorry.  I just don't see it:

From this view, circles can obviously be made to coincide in proportions, however, it is clear that the engineering hulls have divergent contours:


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

The contours of the engineering hulls are clearly different in this view:


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Note the concave contour of the Phase II topside bulge--which matches the TMP refit-- as opposed to the convex contours of TOS topside deck bulge:


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## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

Don't they use the Phase II design in one of the Illustrated Star Trek Books on Ships. I know I have it here somewhere.


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## grantf (Feb 2, 2004)

but can we still get a close model combining the tos cut away and the bathtub-tile E-A I looked at two partial builds I have and I think a really cool model could result!
Really!!


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

I think the only things you can use from the TOS cut-away are the bottom of the primary hull, the deflector dish and mount, and the shuttlebay section if you want an accurate version. The rest needs to be STTMP. The engines would have to be heavily modified refit parts if not scratchbuilt.


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## Xavadis (Jan 10, 2004)

Roguepink said:


> I like to bring this ol' thing up during Phase II discussions.
> 
> http://http://www.calormen.com/Star_Trek/SouthBend/
> 
> ...


I think the Southbend toy referenced the TMP refit filming model that was built under Robert Abel before the model and effects were taken over by Trumbull for the final look of the refit. Abel had a different bridge and sensor dome on the refit from the final version.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Xavadis said:


> I think the Southbend toy referenced the TMP refit filming model that was built under Robert Abel before the model and effects were taken over by Trumbull for the final look of the refit. Abel had a different bridge and sensor dome on the refit from the final version.


The Abel version is a nice variation on a theme as well. :thumbsup: It would be interesting to see that one done.


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

Roguepink said:


> I like to bring this ol' thing up during Phase II discussions.
> 
> http://http://www.calormen.com/Star_Trek/SouthBend/
> 
> ...


Why can't I bring this link up ???


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## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

JGG1701 said:


> Why can't I bring this link up ???


I can't either! :freak:


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## jgoldsack (Apr 26, 2004)

JGG1701 said:


> Why can't I bring this link up ???



The link was input wrongly. It has an extra "http://" on it. Just remove it, link works.


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

Oooooooooo I want one !


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## grantf (Feb 2, 2004)

Is this the true phase II? Coffee where did you dig up the schematics?
I really do whan't to try and build a phase II for fun before the big e-e is avalible!


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## grantf (Feb 2, 2004)

oh, sorry, but any hi res of the obove pictures avalible?


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

grantf said:


> Is this the true phase II? Coffee where did you dig up the schematics?
> I really do whan't to try and build a phase II for fun before the big e-e is avalible!


STGuardian has a few schematics and such. If you have trouble finding them, PM me and I can send you some. The Phase II book has the blueprints in it as well.

The pics you have are about as far as the Phase II version of the 1701 got before being cancelled. There are some consistent artwork pics showing the probable markings using TOS style lettering and insignia.


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

well perfessor i stand corrected on the phase 2, i think... 

didnt someone post the jefferies refit plans here a few months ago? i know i had saved them but i recently had a major computer meltdown, so i lost all of it...

which reminds me i also lost the plans someone had done for a speculative refit, sort of a blend between tos and the refit ships.. anybody got that one?


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

What's funny about the two pics of the Phase II posted above is that they are the same pic, only flipped and cc'd.


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## grantf (Feb 2, 2004)

did not even notice they were the same. 
I also found a few pics at the cloudstrar site, really big:http://www.cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/STMPEnterprise/Phase2Drawings.htm


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

razorwyre1 said:


> . . . which reminds me i also lost the plans someone had done for a speculative refit, sort of a blend between tos and the refit ships.. anybody got that one?


PM me--I think I've got that one as well as most of the available Phase II diagrams and artwork.


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