# Fray Racing and Classes



## Mexkilbee (Apr 17, 2008)

Just wanted to get an idea of what I think out there to see if anyone else has them or can see any logic behind it. Am I sane in an insane world, or... so here it goes.
Stock Class, I think it should be stock, skinny hard rubber tires, stock brushes, stock bodies you know, other than oil, the car remains as it came in the box, blister card. The problem is, first brushes. How do you know that they are "Stock", and second is the Tires. Wurth makes a fine product called "Rubber care" that can turn forty year old tires into new. But not everybody can get it, so why not use the new rubber off a Johny lightning 500? Because thier not original AURORA tires and the purest don't like'm.
I would love to, and have raced this class, a figure eight on the back of a door my friend would take off the hinges every Tuesday night for some Door Knob 500 racing, It was a blast. But it out grew itself and was ruined by the treated and JL tires.
SUPER STOCK CLASS: Slip ons and anybrush (copper), and you can cut the post down for lower CG. Excellent class, one of my fav's. But the availibility of parts and cars for that matter are hurting it.
MODIFIED CLASS: I think this is where Fray racing should be at, however in our part of the woods here in New York it isn't. Most clubs run Fray as SS (Superstock). Modified should be all the stock parts of the T-Jet, do what you want to them, cut the post, hallow it out (the body), run with out glass, add the brass front end and law tires (or keep them as "slip-ons, just in Tyco AFX size), go crazy with whats provided and a few aftermarket parts thrown in.
SUPER MODIFIED CLASS: This should be all out comp T-Jet, I think this is where the Fray T-Jet belongs. Brass front ends, chasis cutting, resin body, feather light or as heavy as a brick (That is the one thing I always argue over with the guys at the races. why have a wieght Min. and Max. if I can't add it, or take it away. And for that reason why can I put a brass front end on? Is'nt that adding wieght?) Balance Arms, Trued Arms, CNCe'd gear train, dimpled, concave, hallowed, silver brushes all is fair. Keeping in mind it all has to stay "In the Spirit" of the T-Jet. Braids on the shoes if you want, bent however if you want, you know if it has a pancake arm in a t-jet chasis and the only two mags are for the motor, great! Run it. I think in this class a lexan bodie should be legal. 
I just threw this out there to see, and start some chatter about it to see if a re-organisation of classes is what should be done to "Save" t-jet racing. Tomarrow I let you know why I love Fray and hate it to. but I am out of time right now, goodnight! Thanks for your time.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

Technically, there is only one Fray race a year with rules imposed by a very small contingent of race organizers. If other groups large want to emulate The Fray race rules - no problem. Just don't expect that anyone outside of the immediate sphere of The Fray influence is going to cause The Fray organizers to change The Fray rules. It's their race, lock, stock, and barrel.

However, this should have absolutely no bearing on any other racing groups that race TJets. It's only important that you come up with rules that everyone in your group is happy with. If it's running quadralam arms and 24V track power, so be it. If it's copy catting The Fray, no problem. Just be prepared to publish your rules if you want others from outside of your group to join in on the action.

I think most serious racing enthusiasts like a class that allows them to tune at least 3 or 4 aspects of car performance. If the only tunable parameter is the tires, for example, then you'll be faced with a dilemma when one racer figures out how to get a clear advantage in that one area. Likewise, if there is a wide variation in the performance of parts that not considered tunable, then you have people buying a bunch of these parts just to find the freakishly good one. When there are a number of variables, different racers will try different strategies for gaining an edge. At some point however, when you limit your racing to a single platform that cannot evolve, there will be a few folks who will figure out how to optimize every tunable parameter on the platform and the interest level may fall off. 

If I had my way, which I rarely do, I'd like to see a race series where you didn't announce the construction rules and specs for each race until 30-60 days before each race, maximum. This would give builders a challenging window to build a car to spec, test it, tune it, and learn to drive it fast. Of course it would only include certifiably readily available parts. The rules would change throughout the series. Sounds totally insane, but I think it would be far more exciting than the current formats that seem rather stagnant and give racers many months to prep their cars. Some of the specs would include recycled parts that are collecting dust in pit boxes.


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

*We dont need no steenking bajes!*

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/howorld/message/53623


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

AFXToo is right, the Fray is it's own race and there ain't no changing it, 'cept by the guys that run it and they do so as they please without a care as you can see if you read their board or some of the various grumblings that have surface even here. The reason for it's large acceptance, besides the fact that they are so much fun, is that the teams are made up of individuals from all over the country, and the network effect that occured over the years is phenomenal. For that reason, I think Fray should stay right where it's at because it's great a bringing racers together. Locally we started out with a modified version of the International Rules, and I still abide by it when new guys join in. Our approach is to try to remove some of the "rules overhead", especially in equipment. For example, we don't enforce a body thickness, but do enforce the "no obvious" cast-in handling aspect of the rules. And we don't remove the correct rules, we append them so the original is there for everyone's reference should they decide to start racing at other venues.

So, to give my take on the original post, I like stock skinny tire T-jets, we run them stock with ribbed rubber, any similar height copper replacement brushes allowed (I try to keep wiz brushes out due to the height, but I know guys still run 'em), no Tuffie or AFX mags, no shims, no restricted shoes, etc. Generally it provides very close racing.

For what I'd consider SS, stock with skinny slip-ons, any non-ski shoe maybe with restriction allowed, any copper brush, ie, it's still a T-jet with a few simple and widely available performance add-ons. * I still wouldn't allow body mods because my belief is that if you allow one you have to allow them all to be fair, and that's a Pandora's Box.

For mod, I'd take it right to Fray/VHORS/Nitro stuff. These classes are track proven, and while tough and/or expensive to master, it doesn't take much to get started (unless you _expect _to win right away).

Personally, that's all I see for T-Jets. Throw in some themed classes and stuff which may require minor exceptions to the rules I listed above...our paper-body dirt mods(stock-class chassis, AFX Wheels, Paper Body) absolutely rock, almost the speed and handling of Fray for $25 or so. 

Whatever it takes to bring people in _and_ allow them to have fun. :thumbsup:


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

> Fray/VHORS/Nitro stuff. These classes are track proven, and while tough and/or expensive to master, it doesn't take much to get started (unless you expect to win right away).


I agree. If you follow Tom's excellent tutorial, with pictures I might add, (http://www.bat-jet.com/webspot/fraycar06.html) you can build a Fray style TJet in a couple of hours max. Assuming $12 for a NOS roller, $6 front end, $8 tires, $2 brushes, $2 shoes, $1 axle, $1 gear, $1 guide pin, $3 magnets, and $10 body you can probably get in for around $50 total, assuming you have all the tools you need. Chances are you'll end up with a car that's pretty darn good on your home basement track, at least compared to box stock TJets. Chances are also pretty good however that your $50 Fray car will not be very competitive when put up against the "regulars" running cars with 2X to 4X more $$$ into their cars. Still, getting a race car on the line for $50 is probably not outlandish and there's something to be said for the average builder/racer just being able to get the basic formula down. Going faster and truly being competitive always costs more time and money. If spending your time and money on a race car is something you like, then you will probably find this type of car very enjoyable.


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## brownie374 (Nov 21, 2007)

At our races at the hobby shop and my house we keep down costs by not allowing silly sponge and allowing aw/jl chassis in our mod. t-jet class in ss only copper t-jet


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## afxgns (Jul 6, 2006)

AfxToo said:


> Chances are also pretty good however that your $50 Fray car will not be very competitive when put up against the "regulars" running cars with 2X to 4X more $$$ into their cars. Still, getting a race car on the line for $50 is probably not outlandish and there's something to be said for the average builder/racer just being able to get the basic formula down. Going faster and truly being competitive always costs more time and money. If spending your time and money on a race car is something you like, then you will probably find this type of car very enjoyable.


This is were I need to jump in.
Only half of this statment is true. I firmly beleive that with Tom's list you can make the "a" main at the Fray. You need to tune and drive your way there, but you can do it, I know 'cause one of my teammates did it five times. (In a row)

Trek Lawler does all of his own stuff, tires, ballancing, gears, axles. the whole bit. If he has more than 40$ in his A main cars I'll eat 'em. 

Now I'm not sayin' that money doesn't help, it does. But there are many racers who can tune and drive their way to the top with decent equipment. That's why this class is so popular, you don't NEED to have the big bucks if you can adjust and drive your car.


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## Mexkilbee (Apr 17, 2008)

The guys in Ferndale should Trademark "Fray car" like the Nike "Swoosh". It has become so popular I forgot about that whole one race, in one place thing. Only goes to show you how big it is. And yet that is not enough to keep racers loyal to it. The non-mag Slot-it class is killing the local T-jet racing. On an AFX ten lane road course a year ago, you had to sit for a round or so to get back on the track, 17-18 racers on average (the high I think was 21) for regular friday night T-jet racing. Started at seven, and you finished around 11:30 to midnight. Now there are lanes empty, allmost to the point you wonder if the race will be held. And all the while kids and thier fathers comming in to have the 1/32 track turned on so they can practice for sundays Slot-it race. Here in the "Empire" state $50.00 is a little light, and like stated, you aren't going to win. For $10.00 more (five if you buy an unpainted/undecorated car) you can start in Slot-it 1/32 non mag. and be a front runner. all the parts are spec, so the chances of freakishly great are far and few (I'm shure it happens). 
One of the Best races ever, was "The Bag Race" all the racers had thier old ladys line up in the parking lot and.... Just joking. The Bag race was a new T-jet chasis in a bag w/silicones and a set of copper brushes, thats it you had a 1/2 hour to get it ready to race using only a Screwdriver, piece of sand paper, and some oil (that the track provided). It was a great event. Shop owner tried it again, can't get the chasis. No one wants to race JL's (because they aren't a T-Jet, I say just wait forty years or so and JL racing will be the ticket, we will be griping about black chaisis over grey, white and blue mags over faded blued and white washed mags, thick fronts and skinnies well I wont be, i will most likely be plant food in forty years). And that's the problem right there. Wondering about the future of T-jet racing when they have allready been done for 35 years. I think they will eventually fade back into the basement, I wont mind, that's where I started with them, and today, that is where i have the most fun with them. But I love the Big SS/Fray races every month, I like the tinkering and tuning, I like the compitition, and I like the racers i race with, never met a one i didn't get along with. 
Thanks for the feedback everybody, cant wait to see tomarrows 2 cents.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

I would be hard pressed to build a Fray/VHORS style car for less than $40 if I had to buy all of the parts. 

Fandango body (raw): $8.00
NOS TJet Roller: $12.50 (Jag Hobbies)
Wizzard Fray Cut Rear Tires: $9.00
BSRT Shoes: $1.75 (1 pair)
Rear Axle: $1.50
Wizzard Front End Kit: $6.00 (FR54 with 1 set of tires)
Wizzard Copper Brushes: $1.75 (JBs are more)
JL Magnets: $4.00 (estimated)
Guide Pin: $1.00 (estimated)

That's $45.50, which is pretty conservative. I'd more likely than not buy a basic body that is ready to use, drilled posts, fitted glass, which adds another $7.00 to the mix, topping the $50 mark. Throw in a spare set of shoes, brushes, and 2 or 3 different front tire sizes and the price goes up. I'm neither exaggerating nor complaining, I think this is a reasonable deal for a ready to race car. I still err on the conservative side in my expectation that a luck of the draw single chassis is not likely going to produce an A-main race car. Yeah, one of the arguably best racers and builders in the country can do wonders with average equipment, but I personally wouldn't set my own sights too high for hitting all the marks as the "average builder/racer just being able to get the basic formula down" which is what I was specifically addressing. The key point is that TJets are very approachable and have a relatively low entry point. You don't have to spend $75 for a Wizzard RTR TJet or $135 for a RTR KC-Jet to get in the game.

I have followed Tom's advice to the letter in building 6 Tjets and I still feel the vortex as the top dog cars blow by me on the straights. As a courtesy I do wave as they swoosh by me.

If there are some formulas out there for building a competitive Fray/VHORS TJet for less than $50 with parts that are comparable to what I've mentioned, bring them on. I'd love to see where the parts costs can be trimmed.


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## afxgns (Jul 6, 2006)

AfxToo said:


> I
> If there are some formulas out there for building a competitive Fray/VHORS TJet for less than $50 with parts that are comparable to what I've mentioned, bring them on. I'd love to see where the parts costs can be trimmed.


Well for starters:
Trek (and others) Have alot of chassis to choose from. He doesn't need to buy a NOS chassis to get started.

Make your own tires. ( there are many tutorials out there regarding this subject.) There is probably no better way to advance your progam than by learning this skill.

Buy stuff in bulk:
Find a couple of buddies and go together and buy your axles in bulk and cut them yourself. This will save about 70% of the costs.
This includes shoes,front ends, hell almost everything on the car.

The bodies are the rub, I'll admit to that. I think there is a real tendancy to be a member of the "body of the month club" this drives alot of the pricing out of reach.
We do have a great advantage of racing with Jack Rutherford of Fandago. He is very suportive of the local teams and we thank him for that.


After rereading my post, I do need to appologize for sounding contrarian(sp) I mearly was trying to say that fray racing is not as cost driven as other forms of slotcar racing. I think it comes close to striking to the proper ballance between tallent,tuning and equipment.
Please read it with that intent.


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## LDThomas (Nov 30, 1999)

*I know the guy...*

By the way, Trek makes his own bodies as well. His cars are definitely some of the "cheapest" ones out there. :dude:


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Good points by both of you, really. 

Coming off the ECHORR Anniversary race a little over a week ago, there was one observation I made that's relative to the discussion. I think one aspect where $$$ do come into play is not the cars themselves, but the sheer quantity of race-ready cars some guys have. I have one race-ready car and a decent backup, and this was a team race on four tracks. Some racers had a complete car and a complete backup set up for each track, even at a mid-range price that's $600 worth of cars. So yes, building _a_ Fray car can be very reasonable, but being competitive in the class can become very expensive. On the plus side though, it was a great bunch off guys and they will share their cars with anyone at the drop of a hat. But for someone who likes to build a run their own stuff, it can get frustrating.


One other thing that crossed my mind was that while the new and legal drop-weight front ends offer a major improvement in handling, they are not cheap. If they are good enough to create a new benchmark, which looks to be the case, the price of a competitive build goes up. Innovation is cool (as are these front ends), but if the cost results in fewer bodies around the track, it's all for nothing. 


I think what really matters for the long term is that the class remains fairly stable so that people have the time it takes to learn it all from both driving and building perspectives.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

> The bodies are the rub


Yeah, it pays to shop around for these, especially the ones that aren't the latest and greatest body de jour. I picked up some great deals on ready to race bodies from Tom Bowman after he made up a bunch for a big race and had some extras left over. I actually had to add a little extra weight to my car to meet the minimum weight requirement because the bodies are getting so light weight. I also bought a nice little weigh scale to add to my toolbox and it has come in quite handy. 

I must add that although I'm always struggling to find more speed (especially on the 100+ foot tracks) these little buggers handle like there is no tomorrow. I turned my niece and nephew loose with a couple of Fray setup cars on my basement track and they took to them as well as they took to the Super G+ cars. Throwing in some blue drag arms made for some very lively Outlaw TJet action. Hee hee hee. Tech be damned...


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## martybauer31 (Jan 27, 2004)

The frustrating part with the fray cars is you can build 10 using the EXACT same process and you will end up with 10 different cars...

Case in point, I took a little bag of strictly stock parts to build up 5 or 6 junker fray cars for running around the track at home. Obviously the only thing I added was an independent front end, better brushes and shoes, and the tires to each.

I ended up with one absolute screamer, 2 that were just ok, and 3 total piles. To make it more amusing, I took the screamer, and added the top of the line CNC gears to it, assuming it would run even better now.... nope. It ran worse... I put the old gears back in and it was flying again.

The car I build with stock everything, save a $6 front end, $10 tires, Wizz brushes and drill blank axles is every bit as good as a couple I have that have every after market part in the world on it.

What happened? I got lucky and just managed to put the perfect parts together. Hell, 8 times out of 10 I can't build a good one with the best parts money can buy. I measure parts in my alignment block, line things up, balance, tune, it doesn't seem to matter, it's luck of the draw essentially. Which is why I probably won't be going back.... Great group of guys, but I obviously don't have the building skills and the inventory to get that perfect match every time, or even more than one time.

If I could put them together like I can a G-Jet, where 9.5 times out of ten following the process gets you an excellent car, I would be more open, but there are just so many inconsistencies in every single part that it makes it extremely difficult to do anything with them.

It also doesn't help that where I run, we don't run the fray cars in our local group, if I run them at all it's with Mike King and a couple others on the side some weekend, and then not again for a couple of months..... that is the other big thing, you need to run them A LOT.


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## Mexkilbee (Apr 17, 2008)

I have experanced that a great car today, might be a dog on race day, and vise versa. The T-jet is a tuning nighmare compared to other slot cars. I store them with the brushes out of the car thinking I was loosing tension on them, sometime it works, some times it dosn't. I have been told that weather is a huge factor. Most of the racing here is in the winter, when you get to the track and your cars are frozen they fly, but come race time, they have become room temp and who knows how it will be. I'm trying to figure out how to add climate control to my box. After that I guess I'll have to find away to hermeticly seal it, you know for freshness. 
The cost of building one compitive "Fray" style car goes beyond the cost of that car. It would be great to buy all the parts and pieces, throw them together and have a front running car every time as stated earlier, it just isn't the case, not every time, but most of the time you have to build ten to get one. And then the weather changes and.... 
If it wasn't so tough to be good at it, I'd probably loose intrest in it. I know racing above all else takes time and $$ devoted to it, if you want to run upfront. The new generation of racers will spend the disposible income, but they want results now. My own kid will bitch and complain because it takes 4min to make popcorn in the microwave.
unfortunatly many older racers are the same way of thinking and after a weekly beating for a few months they stop showing up, on Fridays, they are there on (Slot-it) Sunday, Man i am getting sick of typing and saying slot-it.


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## tjettim (Nov 29, 2005)

Just say Nay to Fray.Put a fifty buck claiming rule on
all the cars.


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## Mexkilbee (Apr 17, 2008)

I think a $100.00 would be closer to the truth. The only problem is it takes more than money to get a good one, so how do you compinsate for that? It would be great to have a claiming rule on the books, but after the first person invokes it.... Trouble.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

> weather is a huge factor


Not to mention sun spots, solar flares, and the unexpected appearance of the Aurora Borealis during a nighttime race. They do represent technology from much earlier times, when life was simpler and hobbies satisfied our urge to tinker. There's a certain Rube Goldberg kind of whimsical charm to TJets. I still love them because they are familiar, fun, rugged, and sprinkled in there amongst the frustrations are the rewarding times when you somehow get them to work just right. They have always kept me interested and coming back for more no matter how many times I've declared these little beasties completely untamable and sought out the predictable comfort of a Tyco 440X2 or Tomy Turbo. But after a few thousand laps with the magnet cars I'm ready to tempt fate once again. I'm certain I can figure them out, it's only been 15,000 or so days that the TJet has exerted its will over me, so I think I'm just about ready to gain the upper hand. I can feel it... my day will come.


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## afxgns (Jul 6, 2006)

AfxToo said:


> I must add that although I'm always struggling to find more speed (especially on the 100+ foot tracks) these little buggers handle like there is no tomorrow. QUOTE]
> 
> One word..........
> Shoes.
> ...


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

*Light dem tires and get loose!*



AfxToo said:


> Not to mention sun spots, solar flares, and the unexpected appearance of the Aurora Borealis during a nighttime race. They do represent technology from much earlier times, when life was simpler and hobbies satisfied our urge to tinker. There's a certain Rube Goldberg kind of whimsical charm to TJets. I still love them because they are familiar, fun, rugged, and sprinkled in there amongst the frustrations are the rewarding times when you somehow get them to work just right. They have always kept me interested and coming back for more no matter how many times I've declared these little beasties completely untamable and sought out the predictable comfort of a Tyco 440X2 or Tomy Turbo. But after a few thousand laps with the magnet cars I'm ready to tempt fate once again. I'm certain I can figure them out, it's only been 15,000 or so days that the TJet has exerted its will over me, so I think I'm just about ready to gain the upper hand. I can feel it... my day will come.


So very true! I am currently entertaining a theory that the pull of the moon and tidal responses play an active roll in t-jet performance. This does not preclude the notion that the lil buggers readily traverse into the fifth dimension whenever they want and sit around and laugh at us.

I have a couple of handfuls of inline magnet racers and do run them from time to time. Certainly I enjoy tinkering with what ever car/chassis comes my way, but there is something mystically hypnotic about T-jet monkey motion.

Memberr RR sez it best, "Hello my name is RR, and I am a slot junkie." LOL

Words to live by. :thumbsup:



After a short moment of reflection, prior to pushing the submit button; I had a personal epiphany. I realized that part of the t-jets appeal is that they have a very realistic throttle response when ya hit the juice. They behave very much like a real car of the era. Ill handling, over powered for the tractive engineering of the time and the only thing keeping you off yer roof or out of the ditch was your nerves or common sense.

6yr old Jimmy was down for a coupla days. One of his favorite rides is an old T-jet dumptruck that emerged from the pinesol/easy off vat with some ghastly original looking patina. The chassis is a nicely broken in stocker that as been massaged using only tuning voodoo...IE: NO HOT ROD PARTS!

The only addition being a set of vintage skinny hotrod spongees. This bucket gives him no little joy. Powersliding the turns and fishtailing down the first half of the backchute. He was in that joyous state of t-jetdom that keeps us all coming back for more. In him I saw myself some forty years later. 

Secretly, when nobody's looking, Grandpa pulls out some of his nice old "Tuffy" cars and removes the modern silis. They are then shod with some original spongees and used in a vintage fry fest in lanes 2 and 3 where 360's and switchback 180's are the norm.

When waxing very nostalgic, gramps dials the "way back" to the days when T-rex roamed the earth. Vintage vibrator hotrods on trued original washer slicks are the special of the day. Full throttle powerslides with complete control around the short track will test your skill and controll rather quickly. Can ya hang it ...er are ya a complete Frankenstein? It takes a light touch and a quick finger! 

The rules are simple, marshal yer own pile, gerf yer buddy, and whoever gets to the required amount of laps wins...or whoever has the most laps when mom's kitchen timer dings wins! The KISS principle trumps all rules. In other words if it is subject to more than one interpretation or endless debate...then it's really not a rule...it's pork barrell legislation and a nonstop filibuster in the making. You talking? whining? or racing? 

I guess it's just the voodoo of getting loose, the razors edge if you will, that keeps me pulling the trigger on these little time machines. They say you can never go home...but when I drop it in the slot it makes stopping in for a visit all the more enjoyable.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

Good post Bill. Very entertaining. I've been running some of my AFX and Magnatraction cars on spongies lately and it does take you back. I got a whole bag of them as a freebie in an order from Tubtrack. Nailing the throttle, while having a slightly therapeutic effect on your finger muscles, does little to inspire the car to jump off the line the way you imagine it will in your minds eye or after witnessing the actual throttle response from a silicone-sponge equipped Storm or G3. Yeah, it's very realistic with the TJets and akin to what you get from a high powered real car running stock tires. Lots of noise, lots or mechanical exertion, but little immediate motion in the forward direction. It eventually gains a little bite, and then a little more, and so on, and eventually you learn that a much less spastic takeoff is indeed more productive in the long run. 

But we all knew that back in the day, that was the way we drove them because that was the only way they could be driven. Even with the Fray/VHORS setups I can see and hear these modern silicone-sponge tires struggling to get a solid grip at launch and when powering out of a corner. It's actually a confirmation in my mind that these Fray style TJets are actually very cool little race cars when I see the dynamics of how they respond to the driver and how the driver has to react and cater to them, especially on a good sized track where they can reach terminal velocity. Even my cars that I feel are lacking speed have a lot more power than what I am able to lay down on the track with impunity. Bottom line is that no matter how you set them up they still have to be driven. 

I look forward to the "shoes" tip. I've definitely got shoes, from NOS originals to BSRTs, Slottechs, and the new Wizzard shoes that I really like with the rear hanger and built-in restriction. I'm starting to think that maybe these ultralight bodies are what's hurting me. I'm so close to the minimum weight that I've had to add weights to the front end to bring it in spec. My front end is planted perfectly fine so maybe I'd be better off getting a slightly heavier body, more weight over the rear wheels, and taking the extra slugs off the nose. Hmmm. Something to try along with the pending shoe pointers.


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## tjettim (Nov 29, 2005)

Even if your club does not allow custom CNC'd gears,how do you
police it? Pandoras box has been opened and the top Fray cars
have less original parts in them every year.I wouldn't doubt that
hand wound arms are out there.I bet even a 200 dollar claiming
rule would piss alot of builders off.I think the cure might be to
run AW/JL cars with only brass front ends and pro rear tires added
to them.No other mods.The cars would be easy to inspect and
cheap to build.And you would be supporting an existing company.


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## Mexkilbee (Apr 17, 2008)

Hand wound, the Wiz has CNC wound and balanced, Allen Galenko has his arms out there. I agree with Tjettim, run Jl's, allow JL arms in the classes. but the die hards wont allow them A.they are not T-Jets, B. they dont have copper electricles on them. The racers in my area that are a little long in the tooth talk about the hey day and how you went to the hobby store, bought cars and parts, raced in the back room. If JL's were legal that would keep that cycle going. Support the shop/club and they will support the racers. It is still alive and well, it's just that the store/track/clubs are pushing the racers towards the 1/32 cars.


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Mexkilbee said:


> it's just that the store/track/clubs are pushing the racers towards the 1/32 cars.


That's just as much because most current big scale manufacturers police their distribution networks so it's actually worth stocking the cars. I've been to three major hobby retailers in the last month who either laughed at me or copped an attitude when I asked if they planned on getting the new AW release in.


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

Tycos


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

*Bad juju*



SwamperGene said:


> That's just as much because most current big scale manufacturers police their distribution networks so it's actually worth stocking the cars. I've been to three major hobby retailers in the last month who either laughed at me or copped an attitude when I asked if they planned on getting the new AW release in.


A very interesting tidbit there Gene. Thank you for sharing. Some real world data regarding what happens when a manufacturer breaks the sales chain.

The old end around comes around...does it not?


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## SplitPoster (May 16, 2006)

My local hobby shop has a jillion repair/tuneup/maintenance/upgrade parts for every kind of R/C vehicle known to man. Nil for pancake slots (or inline cars for that matter), and the AW boxes hawk the free collector club, not setting up a race track. No 1:32 at all, but the AW's are regarded as nostalgia pieces and toys, and nobody on the SUPPLY side in this distribuion chain has any interest in making them otherwise. And why would they if they can't even stock replacement parts in "eaches" for goodness' sake? Junior needs a new shoe? Ummmm.

Found out there are semi-local HO racers running a home track series, one even with routed track. Either box stock G plus or those cars that require protective padding in case of deslot.


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## tjettim (Nov 29, 2005)

Back in the day,getting replacement T-jet parts from the local
hobby shops in my area was about impossible.We just bought
extra cars for parts.Gee DeJaVu AW. Remember having to buy
an antire HopUp kit to get some slicks? The Fray style racers
will resist change because of the time and money spent to get
a performance advantage over the average T-jet racer.


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## Mexkilbee (Apr 17, 2008)

It';s funny how they are considered toys and nostalgia pieces, and "Junk" by most, and yet they are terrified to run against the JL arm.


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## tjettim (Nov 29, 2005)

All the JL/AW parts should be allowed.Readily available,
mass produced, and not 40 years old.


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## afxgns (Jul 6, 2006)

Mexkilbee said:


> It';s funny how they are considered toys and nostalgia pieces, and "Junk" by most, and yet they are terrified to run against the JL arm.


Terrified?
They are terrified of nuclear war.

They just don't want to obsolete all those arms with a stroke of a pen., 'cause that's what they think will happen. (But it wouldn't)

You need to realize that the Ricks are sold on keeping the thing as stock as possible, and still be able to tech it. (IE magnets)

I think the thing to do is to drop the ohm limit to ...say...14.5. This would do two things open up the AFX arms (like they used to be), and it would alow the JL arms, but not all of them, so you would need to pick thru and find one that met the rules.
Or..........
have two rule sets for two vs three lam arms.

You see, the powers think that dropping the ohm limit will render all the gray arms obsolete, nothing could be further from the truth.
Ask any of the top builders how they choose an arm. What is the list, in order of the things they look for?

I'll bet you find they don't even get out their ohmmeter 'till they are checking their stuff for tech. The BEST arm I own, is a christmas tree arm that ohms 20.0-20.3-21.0. And it will wax any red wire 16.1 arm you have.

You have to DRIVE these things, when you spin the tires, it's all gone dude!

But this is pie in the sky stuff,There will be no changes in this dept, 'till the Ricks can't get arms anymore. And that will be a while:wave:


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## brownie374 (Nov 21, 2007)

whats a Rick?


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## Mexkilbee (Apr 17, 2008)

Is a Rick, a Frank? 
the thing about arms I have found, and I could be a blind squerrel that found a nut here and there, is that like a real motor, it's all relitive. You can throw the biggest grind cam shaft into your engine and go no where, if you don't have the right carb on the manifold. You can throw an 900cfm dominator on top and go no where if you don't have the heads that can flow it. and it keeps going down the line. All the fuel in the world won't help if you don't have the spark..... . I had a perfect arm, 22 all around that ran like a raped ape, do to the track having magnet read switches for the timer, I couldn't run stock mags with it. (unless i wanted to deal with missing a few laps here and there). Dropped the JL's white and blue mags in, and the car went no where, put the white and greens back in and it was a rocket once again. 
I would like to see the ohm's around 13, but I could live with 14.5.
I would like to think everyone for chimming in, and offering good sound opinions on this thread. please keep them comming, and also the SWAG's to. I like those the best. 
I just hate driving 1/2 hour and burning $8.00 on gas for a maybe race, and the whole time watching the 1/32 crowd point and laff due to their class taking over the shop, and the T-jet slowly dying of cancer. does that sound dramatic, i think i might have gone over the top there.. Thanks everyone.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

That's a bit dramatic, yeah. I don't see the HO versus 1:32 or 1:24 thing. Plenty of people run 'em all. If you have a race place that has both HO and 1:32 tracks then run a mixed series where the winner is a combined result from both scales. Rotate the car types on both scales each round (weekly perhaps). I've found that a lot of the larger scale guys still like to mix it up on the HO track as long as the HO classes you run are stock or near stock so they don't need a lot of exotic parts or equipment. Same for the HO guys, buying a few 1:32 scale cars is a no brainer because they are so awesome looking you can display them at home as static models even if you don't have a home track. Slots 'r slots, no matter how big or small, they are always big time fun.


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## tjettim (Nov 29, 2005)

For HO to survive it will need realistic looking cars.I hope the
Mega-G is just the start.I like 1/32, but I don't have room for
a large enough layout to be any fun.I think a table length of
30+ feet is necessary to get the 1/32 cars up to speed. In
HO 16 feet is a good layout length and 20 foot is about the
longest to see the cars well.For Tjets to survive they also
need to go back to their realistic looking selfs.Lowering the
cost of a competetive car would'nt hurt either.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

The survival of HO is tied to two things: 

1) Those of us who support it now continue to do so.
2) The ability to attract new enthusiasts. 

The first one, continued support, is a no brainer for me - today. There are factors that could have an impact on this, especially the availability of parts. Parts availability is a huge issue when you run your cars on a regular basis and when you want to keep the cars fully intact. The artistic rendering of the cars is less of a factor when you run the cars. If you can't or don't run them them, well maybe then their appearance becomes a bigger deal. Not running slot cars doesn't cut it for me. But what the heck, maybe you are a savvy collector and have a master plan with perfect timing for how you're going to cash them out before the market for them crashes in ??? years when all of the people who yearn for them as mementos of their childhood are gone. While those of us who love the hobby will continue to support it as long as we can, the clock is definitely ticking towards an inevitable conclusion unless something radically changes with the second factor, attracting new enthusiasts. 

Attracting new enthusiasts is the wild card. I have no idea how well the hobby does on this front because there are obviously more people out there doing stuff in their basements than showing up at organized races and slot racing shops. At the races and at the shops I mostly see "vintage" enthusiasts who have been doing this stuff for decades. There are some younger people, few and far between, and some Moms and Dads bringing their kids to races and to use the track. But the slot car hobby is up against a endless gauntlet of competition for attention and money from television, computers, game consoles, stick & ball sports, and whatever it is that kids do these days that banish them to the indoors until they get ready to leave for college and you get an invitation to your neighbor's kids graduation party and you didn't even know they had kids because they've never been spotted outside the house. Go figure. If I was making HO race sets I'd be doing F1 cars with nationalistic themes and trying to sell them into the emerging world markets like India, China, Malaysia, eastern Europe, and the middle east. I think the US market has been on a long slow fade for decades and despite the recent resurgence from 60s and 70s returnees there is no way to reverse the inevitable. 

I've given up on trying to save the hobby from this or that or figure out what's going to keep it going forever. I'll just enjoy it while it lasts, make it fun for those around me, and hopefully I'll always have others to enjoy it with. So far, so good.


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

AfxToo said:


> I've given up on trying to save the hobby from this or that or figure out what's going to keep it going forever. I'll just enjoy it while it lasts, make it fun for those around me, and hopefully I'll always have others to enjoy it with. So far, so good.


Hey Too,
I think that is exactly what is going to save this hobby here. There is just no substitution for 3D real world stuff. As long as we all share the fun we are having with this stuff, we can't help but make an impression on other people. I can remember being a kid and just going nuts over slot car tracks at other peoples houses. And trains, how are trains surviving? The same way. When some kid comes over and sees the track and leaves asking his dad to build one for him, that's the whole deal in a nut shell. We all had that impression when we were kids, and somewhere in the back of our minds, it never left. Besides, slot cars and trains are always 110v compatible. I mean, if you remember some game when you were a kid, you have to have that system to play it. I have some computer games I used to love, but since I got a new computer with XP some years ago, I can't play them. There's always some dll file missing, and that's just one hurdle with the computer games. You can take your slot cars over to someone elses house and race on their track. You could do it ten years ago, and you can do it ten years from now(Lord willing). How can you beat that? So, give a kid a Coke, and a slot car.

Rich

www.myspace.com/northtexasslotcars :thumbsup: :hat:      :wave:


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## tjettim (Nov 29, 2005)

To realy attract young people, a digital system needs to
be developed for a Tuner car track ,where kids can plug
in their laptops and tune the cars performance.


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## joeslotcar (Mar 12, 2003)

"the Ricks are sold on keeping the thing as stock as possible"

I'm sure the "Ricks" are Mr's Rick Phillis and Rick Machado, the hosts and rulers of the Fray.

I don't post much but lurk a lot. I have to put in my $.02
I race because it's FUN and I want to win. Isn't that what it's all about? When it's not fun anymore, I'll stop, sell everything and take up a new hobby. BUT, this is a GREAT hobby that has brought me many years of enjoyment. I hope for many more.
I race with Mexkilbee (love the name, man) and we discuss this hobby for hours on rides to Ace Hobby, SCCOTTT and Crash n' Burn Raceways. We usually agree that racing has ALWAYS been about gaining an edge in some way. I think that's true in all forms of racing. Nobody races to come in second place. 

There is no making everyone happy with a set of rules. I think it's because there is a little rebel in the soul of every hard core racer. You know how it is, go flat out, push the envelope, bend not break, (or is it not brake?). Then there are those of us that build well within the rules and don't have a hope of winning (can I get little help, please Mr. Corner Marshall? Yeah, I was in blue). But the rule-makers are looking to make rules to support their class, that is, the class of racing they like to race. The Ricks (and their rules committee) will make rules for the Fray. Some parts will be allowed in, some not. It's their race and they will do what they want to do. I like it that way.

There will always be racers who complain about the rules and there also will be those who quietly go about building a car that will win, whatever the rules.

Every rule change ever made can be put into two categories: 
1. A rule made (or changed) for safety reasons (usually makes the car go slower) and 
2. A rule made (or changed) to accommodate a new part or design (usually to make the car go faster) 

#1 really doesn't apply to scale racing so #2 is the reason you have $50.00+ into little race cars. 

All racing organizations have changed rules for more safety and/or speed. F1, NASCAR, IRL, all made changes for new technology. Inventors are filling the need with new parts all the time. The Chevy small block is still powering many a race car, with hundreds of aftermarket parts, though. Tom Bowman and Philippe DeLespinay changed slot racing when they put traction magnets in their cars. That idea opened up new roads for slot cars. Now we have magnet cars that are almost to fast to see. Derek Brand and Joe Giammarino had (and still have) a great idea when they rolled out the Thunderjet chassis 45 years ago. Wizzard, RTHO, Luna, Kniffen, Davis, JL/AW and a host of others have kept the tjet hobby going and opened up new frontiers of performance. Nothin' wrong with that, I say. Keep going.

In some places 1/32 may be more popular than HO because, right now, it is more or less an even playing field. Cars can be built with plentiful spec parts (like that slot.it series at CnB and Ace Hobby) and racers can easily be competitive. That's why 1/32 racing is vastly more popular worldwide. Does that mean HO will die out? No, not as long as the parts still keep coming. It is scary to think that we have "run out" of NOS tjets, though. The lack of supply will not only increase the price, it will either push an inventor to build the exact duplicate of the tjet or force the rule makers to allow present similar chassis. 

There is talk over on the Fray board that some top racers won't attend the next race because rules have not been enforced or were changed at the race for the last 3-4 years. The "fun" is gone for some. But that aside, check the results of the last 5-6 years at the Fray and you will see the same names at the top 20 positions or so, year after year. These are the racers that are driving the inventors for more and better parts. Lap times get faster and faster. Is there a limit as to how fast? Probably. Time will tell...and it will be FUN to see how it will turn out.


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## tjettim (Nov 29, 2005)

To Fray or not to Fray,that is the question.Race HOPRA-expand
your options.


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

Tycos


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## Mexkilbee (Apr 17, 2008)

Joeslotcar, can't wait for the upcomming season, great to hear you made it thru summer. 
I guess it is all in the be-holder in this T-Jet thing. I just don't want it to go away, and I 'd like to see orginazations either push for a dead set replica, or allow the JL's. Because for it to stick around, it will need support.


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## tjettim (Nov 29, 2005)

Look at the bright side,REH and alot of hobby shops got to move alot
of old T-jet inventory.Lets do Tyco X2s next.Or AFX magnatractions.
Then in a couple of decades AW will be out of buisiness and we can 
race them.Or maybe we should support a company that makes cars now?


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## Mexkilbee (Apr 17, 2008)

I guess I was hoping for T-jets to be a universal chasis (like the non mag Slot-it) but just as the racers, it is not. I have learned my lesson, and appreciate the lesson tought by all of you. 
I am going to complain about some things that exist in all T-jet classes i have come accros on the evilnet. So bear with me. 
Weight, why is there a maximum and a minimum, when you can't add or subtract wieght?
Why can't you run indy car style bodies, when in fact with the way body rules are (Body 1 1/8th/ wheel base 1 5/16th) it makes all the cars "Open Wheel sedans" (I stole that from one of the threads on hobby talk). you can balance an arm, but cant true it, being lazy, I have found if you true the arm, it's balanced 98% of the time. The arm plug takes care of any excessive "Grinding" down of the arm. And why can't you run a chasis with non-copper electricles, does it really matter? and tuff on arm plates, I was told by a few people that you can't run them, because undernieth it has "Magnet Holder", "Buit in Shims" "Thingys that keep the magnets spread out".? 
Boss is comming, got to go!


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## tjettim (Nov 29, 2005)

Many have asked the same questions as you have.If you
race them at a local level have your club make your own
rules.Many clubs have done this and have far more sensible rules.


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## Mexkilbee (Apr 17, 2008)

Thats where i lost my head, You can talk to the world here on this site, and others, but you apply and race locally. It would be cool to have an event with world wide mass appeal, (like the Fray). only bigger........


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