# Pics of 3D printed BH Cygnus model test parts



## PrimitiveDave (Jul 10, 2009)

Hi -- I'm Dave. I lurk here all the time, but rarely post cuz I rarely have much to add. Well, here's something I think might be of interest. I found a website where you can upload 3D files and they'll print them out for you in various materials. I got the idea that this might be a feasable way to make a model of the Cygnus from "The Black Hole," so I made some test pieces to see how they'd come out. Here are some pics.

The white parts show how they look printed in "white, strong and flexible." The rest show what they look like painted with acrylic paint from the craft store.

Now that I've got these pieces done, I'd really like to find more reference material. It's not going to be a cheap process, but the results should be really cool. The last thing I want to do is spend the time and money to make the finished model and get a lot of comments about how the proportions are off!  I have a lot of pictures, but I'd like to find some good blueprints or working drawings. If anyone can point me to helpful materials, I'd appreciate it!

I'll be happy to share all of what I do. I can make the pieces available through my store on the website, if anyone is interested. Is it okay to post a link to the website? 

Anyways, let me know what you think so far...


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

Wow, this could be really cool.

Yes, by all means, please post a link to your site.

I'll see what I can do reference-wise. As you no doubt know, it's a tricky subject to model owing to the relative scarcity of material... but I may know someone who can help.


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## veedubb67 (Jul 11, 2003)

Holy Smokes - Look at all that detail!

Keep 'em coming Dave!

Rob
Iwata Padawan


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## PrimitiveDave (Jul 10, 2009)

Thanks guys! Yeah, this has a lot of possibilities -- the struts on the pieces are 1 mm in cross section. The minimum detail for this material is .07 mm but they have other (more expensive) materials that have minimum wall thicknesses of .04 mm and minimum detail of .01 mm. 

Here's the website:

http://www.shapeways.com/

I don't have my store set up yet, but will keep you updated.


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## Fozzie (May 25, 2009)

Those look great!

What is the website you are talking about?

How much did it cost to print out those pieces?


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## PrimitiveDave (Jul 10, 2009)

Hi Fozzie -- I must have posted the website just as you were. It's in the post above. 

Yeah, price -- they're not cheap! The small connectors are $2.19 each; the main truss sections are $8.63 and the tank sections are $16.62, plus another $3.99 for the tank bottom. I figure I'll be building this over a couple of years!


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## jbond (Aug 29, 2002)

That's fantastic--we recently saw a great kit of the Valley Forge from Silent Running using this technique for some of the more complex pieces--the Cygnus is another natural subject for this approach.


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## Fozzie (May 25, 2009)

Thanks for sharing. This is a technology I find fascinating.

Is the tank solid or hollow?


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## PrimitiveDave (Jul 10, 2009)

jbond - yes, you can print all sorts of shapes you could never make molds of.

Fozzie -- My pleasure! Check out the website. If you have access to CAD or 3d software, you can make all sorts of interesting things.


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## PrimitiveDave (Jul 10, 2009)

Oh, the tank is hollow -- they charge by volume, so if the shape was solid it would be much more expensive!


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## Model Man (Oct 1, 2007)

I figured if this kit was ever done well, it would have to be in brass. That's sharp!


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## electric indigo (Dec 21, 2011)

The parts look fantastic. Have you calculated what the overall costs for a full model would be?


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## Fozzie (May 25, 2009)

After reading about the materials on the website, how smooth was the surface of the tank? Did it need to be sanded, or was it smooth enough to be painted as delivered?


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## PrimitiveDave (Jul 10, 2009)

Thanks guys!

I haven't calculated the cost, because I still have so many pieces to make 3d files for. I'm hoping to find better reference material before I go much further. It would also depend on how much I can make from stock materials like plastic or metal and how much I need to print. My gut is that it'll cost about as much as buying the two vintage MPC kits you'd need to accurize them, but will look much cooler! 

The material has a definite tooth to it. It's kind of powdery, and feels like really fine grain wet & dry sandpaper. I don't think it sands down too well because it's actually plastic powder melted together with a laser. There's no "core" to sand down to, if that makes sense. It's porous as well and absorbs paint. I read that some people seal it with superglue and sand that, but that's too much trouble for what I'm doing. I stain it with thinned down black acrylic paint, then dry brush on gold, and finish with a raw umber wash. It looks like antique metal, which is what I'm going for. 

Bottom line, it definitely has its uses, but probably not for large, smooth, high gloss items like a Naboo cruiser, for example. For matte finish pieces like this, or maybe a Space 1999 eagle, it really seems like it could work well.


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## SJF (Dec 3, 1999)

That's really cool. It might be too expensive for me to have all the model done there, but it would be great to have certain pieces done for a kit-bash, or a scratch-build project. 

Thanks for the heads up, Dave. 

Sean


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## kdaracal (Jan 24, 2009)

Imagine a world where you make your own custom garage kits. Wow. Boggles the mind. Thanks for posting. And for those who want a kit not in production, I wonder how the copyrights play out?


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## PrimitiveDave (Jul 10, 2009)

Yeah, it has lots of possibilities. It still is expensive, but you don't have to buy a whole kit at once. You can buy pieces as you need. And as long as you have access to the files you never have to worry about the kit going out of production.

I can see replicating parts that are hard to find or aren't available in the scale you need. I don't think I'd try to cover a studio-scale OS Galactica with replicated parts - that would cost a fortune. But say you wanted to make a more accurate version around the size of the old Monogram kit. I think this could really be helpful.

Also, a lot of subjects could be done "open source," with different people making different parts from different materials. Resin, vacuform, laser cut, photo etch, etc.

I have no idea about copyright issues for making pieces or components though...


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## Fozzie (May 25, 2009)

This technology is still in its infancy. I wouldn't be surprised if, in 10 years or so, you'll be able to do this with a machine small and cheap enough to have in your home.


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## PrimitiveDave (Jul 10, 2009)

Why wait 10 years Fozzie?

http://www.makerbot.com/blog/tag/3d-printer/

:thumbsup:


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## Scorpitat (Oct 7, 2004)

I still have the original kit of the B.H. Cygnus, and never did get around to final assembly of it. It was my "grail" kit for years, and I found one at green models when they still existed and traded in on it. I wish they still existed. It was cool trading old, unwanted kits in on ones you really desired.

This build looks sweet! I'll be following with great interest.

Sincerely,
Scorp. :wave::wave:


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## Model Man (Oct 1, 2007)

PrimitiveDave said:


> Why wait 10 years Fozzie?
> 
> http://www.makerbot.com/blog/tag/3d-printer/
> 
> :thumbsup:


The new one is a big improvement over the cupcake. But at near twice the cost, I'm glad I got my cupcake. And it's relatively easy enough to mod it into a bigger print platform too! Also,the electronics can be swapped out and the new print head as well... That's the great thing about these makerbots is that you can mod them up the wazoo.


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## Frank2056 (Mar 23, 2007)

PrimitiveDave said:


> The material has a definite tooth to it. It's kind of powdery, and feels like really fine grain wet & dry sandpaper. I don't think it sands down too well because it's actually plastic powder melted together with a laser.


Dave,
Your parts look good. I've used Shapeways for quite a few models, and White Strong and Flexible is best for flat surfaces, like your parts. 

You'll never get a smooth surface (or high detail) with WSF; the only option is to seal it with several coats of primer (the material is like a sponge) then sand away at the primer to smooth it.

Here's a Leif Ericson bay I made with WSF:









After some primer:









For your framework, you may only need a couple of coats and some light sanding to make it look good.

A better material is the Transparent Detail. It can be sanded and polished to a glassy smoothness, but the way Shapeways prints Transparent Details means that you'll have to do a lot of sanding to get a smooth and glassy finish.

Their best materials are Frosted Detail and Ultra Detail (and they can be cheaper than Transparent Detail). In many cases, you only need a light sanding in spots or just a coat of primer. It's best for parts with complicated or detailed surfaces.

Finally, for really detailed parts, PCS Engineering can make perfectly smooth parts that don't require sanding. They're not much more expensive than Shapeways. I used them to remake the engines that Round2 used in the Leif Ericson re-issue:
http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=334133

Some of my Shapeways printed projects:
http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=292283

Bonestell Moon Rocket:
http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=324357

C-57 (I have a newer one coming in today)
http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=260959

Frank


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## PrimitiveDave (Jul 10, 2009)

Wow! Thanks Frank! So far my experience with WSF is that for the framework, I haven't done any sanding. I've painted and drybrushed it, and I like the finish as is. The tank is so so -- I may try other materials for things like engines, etc. And I'll definitely check out the other source you gave...


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## Frank2056 (Mar 23, 2007)

Dave, the framework looks good as is. The problem with the tank is that the straps will make it difficult to sand away the surface texture easily. I think you'll have this problem with almost any material that Shapeways has. The printing artifacts may be much less noticeable (or even acceptable) with the Frosted Detail, though.


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## steve123 (Feb 9, 2009)

This is very cool.

I like what I see.

Steve


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## PrimitiveDave (Jul 10, 2009)

Thanks Steve!

Frank -- yes, there is some stair-stepping on the tank, on the curved surfaces of the top and bottom exactly as you say. If I was doing a subject like the examples you showed, I wouldn't like it -- rocket ships and flying saucers should be gleaming and smooth!  But for this subject, it doesn't really bother me. After I paint and weather it, I can still see it if I look for it up close, but at arms length it kind of disappears into all the other visual elements that are going on. Or maybe it's just my eyes that are going.


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## Frank2056 (Mar 23, 2007)

Dave, sometimes you just get a shape and printing orientation that doesn't look bad, even close up. The advantage of shapeways is that they're relatively cheap; if you look at the process as a college level education in 3D design and manufacturing ("independent study") then it's not expensive at all.


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## PrimitiveDave (Jul 10, 2009)

*Finally! Some new parts...*

Hi -- it's been a while since I posted, but not because things haven't been happening. Long story short, I got in contact with a member of the Replica Prop Forum who has been providing me with an amazing amount of reference material. I had to start over from scratch, but it's going to be totally worth it. I then had some technical difficulties getting the parts in shape to be produced. Anyways, after a long delay here are my first new parts! 

I'm trying to get new pieces uploaded and produced on a weekly basis now. I've got some more parts scheduled to arrive in the next day or so, then more next week. Hopefully I'll be able to keep this thread moving along from here.

Please let me know what you think!


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## jheilman (Aug 30, 2001)

Wow, those look great!


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## jbond (Aug 29, 2002)

I'm assuming this is just a personal project, but I'd sure like to see this put out as a kit...


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## PrimitiveDave (Jul 10, 2009)

Thanks! 

Well, it is a personal project, but I'm going to make all the materials available too. I've already put some of the pieces up in my store:

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/primitive_dave

However, this will really be more of an "open source" project than a kit. There will still be a lot of scratchbuilding required -- mainly the underlying frame and light boxes. I will make all my plans and working drawings available as well. The beauty of this method is that you can buy what you like and build what you want...


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## Fozzie (May 25, 2009)

This is one of the most interesting projects going on right now. Please keep posting. What you've done so far is pretty incredible!


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## jbond (Aug 29, 2002)

Genius! I'm definitely down to try tinkering this together...


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## edward 2 (Oct 6, 2010)

how big will it be when built.?


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## PrimitiveDave (Jul 10, 2009)

Thanks guys -- the finished model should work out to a hair over 40" long. If I don't make any major mistakes... ;-)


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## Pun13 (Mar 19, 2008)

The detailing in some of those pieces are amazing. This is going to be one cool ship
once it is completed.

I checked out Shapeways site and they have a ton of cool stuff there.. thanks for the heads up..

Good Luck with the project.

Tom


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## jbond (Aug 29, 2002)

Already purchased the first batch of components...this should look great next to the Valley Forge, and they're fairly close in scale. Keep us informed!


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## Opus Penguin (Apr 19, 2004)

Are these parts to make up the whole ship? Any chance of doing the Valley Forge too, or even the Discovery from 2001?


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## PrimitiveDave (Jul 10, 2009)

jbond -- wow! Cool! Let me know what you think about the parts when you see them for real. I just wouldn't jump in too far yet -- it's going to be an ongoing project. 

Also, I need to be clear -- I intend to make all the framework available, but the underlying structure will still need to be scratchbuilt. Just don't want there to be any confusion!

Opus Penguin -- I think the technology could be used to make either of those ships as well. I've got my hands full with this one for the foreseable future, but you're welcome to jump in! ;-)

Here are some pics of the antennas and antenna mast bases. More to come later this week, hopefully!


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## jbond (Aug 29, 2002)

Cool--yeah, I understand some scratchbuilding will be involved. I already have the Valley Forge (some of which WAS created with rapid prototyping technology)--this is too interesting a project to pass up.


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## portland182 (Jul 19, 2003)

Hang on to your 3D files. The 3D printing technology will get better and cheaper over time!


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## PrimitiveDave (Jul 10, 2009)

^Portland182 -- Wow! It's just getting better and better. That's awesome! Thanks for posting.

Well, I've had another delay, but now things should be coming in soon. I had a couple of pieces rejected at production, but one order should arrive tomorrow and another shipped today, so maybe by the end of the week or Monday.

jbond -- I see your parts shipped the other day. Let me know what you think when they arrive!


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## jbond (Aug 29, 2002)

Will do; I got my shipping notice...


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## PrimitiveDave (Jul 10, 2009)

*New parts -- a mixed bag*

I finally got some new parts yesterday. Some came out great, others... a learning experience.

Fuel module A came out great at first glance. However, I forgot to anchor the middle tanks to the frame, and they all just fell out.  Oh well, they can be glued back in place easily enough. It made me rethink the part though -- I'm going to remake it with most of the fuel tanks on a separate piece for ease of painting. 

I jumped ahead and made parts for the observatories. I haven't made any of the bow structure they attach to yet, so probably not the smartest move, but I just wanted to see something different. The transparent dome was rejected at production for being too thin for the size. I remade it and the part is on order. The base and tower came out really nice; the leg and cap piece not so much. The legs bent, which can be fixed, but the antenna supports twisted and broke. I've made a (hopefully) sturdier piece and will order this week. 

Power center module is in production; hopefully will pass muster and be the next part I have to show. As always, let me know what you think!


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## jbond (Aug 29, 2002)

I got my first batch of parts today and I must say my mind is blown. Even with those first six big sections I can see a lot of the overall structure taking shape. I would love to see a diagram of where everything is going but I understand that might not be in the works for a while yet. Are the U-shaped pieces engine housings?


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## Fozzie (May 25, 2009)

This is exciting. Think of the possibilities...!


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## jheilman (Aug 30, 2001)

I have to say again how monumentally impressive this is. How cool is it that the tech exists than anyone willing to devote the time and energy to create something like this can do it? And, it's encouraging to know that the tech is continuing to improve as the prices fall.


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## PrimitiveDave (Jul 10, 2009)

The parts are pretty cool, aren't they! I'll try to get a diagram done soon -- I've been so focused on this thing that I forget other people might not see how everything fits together. The u-shaped sections fit between the outboard modules, the fuel modules, the power center modules (the big tanks on the center section) and the bow and stern. The clear buttons fit into the bowls on the bottom of the outboard module. They're the command capsules. The thing with the little legs goes on top of that. Or more correctly, underneath. The legs should align fore and aft and side to side. I will make diagrams of the light boxes that will have to be scratch built for the substructure. The modules and connectors will slide over the light boxes.


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## PrimitiveDave (Jul 10, 2009)

^jheilman: and don't forget money. Time, energy, and money! ;-)


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## Marco Scheloske (May 16, 2000)

Will you construct an in-scale PALOMINO, too?

I'ld order one immidiately...


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## jbond (Aug 29, 2002)

...I would be shocked if a Palomino isn't part of this...


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## PrimitiveDave (Jul 10, 2009)

Marco -- of course! I intend to. It wouldn't be complete without the Palomino and probe ship. I don't have as much reference for either of those yet, but I will get to them. Hopefully not too far off...


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## Steve H (Feb 8, 2009)

so, this is looking amazing, and it seems 3-D printers are evolving in leaps and bounds. I dig it. 

Technical question. How the heck does this thing hold together? It seems like it's gonna have iffy structural integrity unless it's got some kind of solid core or spine.


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## PrimitiveDave (Jul 10, 2009)

Steve H -- yes, these parts are basically the "frosting." The "cake" will be an underlying framework, and a series of boxes made out of translucent plastic sheet, lit from inside. The boxes will be the solid structure. These pieces will be attached to the outside and will not carry much, if any load. I've started to plot out the center section substructure, but haven't built any of it yet.


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## spawndude (Nov 28, 2007)

I forsee the day where you will have a 3D scanner connected to your 3D printer.
You would place your old built "insert name of your favorite model" into the scanning booth which would save the info to a file you could open with a CAD program, make changes then send to the 3D printer. At some point you would be able to add textures, colors, weathering, battle damage etc.


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## PrimitiveDave (Jul 10, 2009)

More parts arrived yesterday. I received the power modules and the observatory dome. You can definitely see some stair-stepping on the bottoms of the power modules -- that will need some sanding. Also, there were some weird artifacts on the observatory dome. I may need to remake it even thicker. Otherwise, everything came out great!

I've made some paper mockups of the substructure for the ship's center section. Hopefully it will give you an idea of how all these pieces will fit together. Next up are the pieces that go on top of this section, inbetween the outboard modules. 

Please let me know if you have any comments or critiques.


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## jbond (Aug 29, 2002)

Wow. If that's the worst stair-stepping I can certainly deal with that. What color are you painting the frames? I want to duplicate that...


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## PrimitiveDave (Jul 10, 2009)

I'm using acrylic paints from the hobby store. The ones in the small bottles or out of the tube. The material is so porous I use a brush, not airbrush. I paint directly on the material -- no primer or anything.

The original miniatures were made from brass and copper, and appear to be unpainted, just given a patina. Here's what I do to duplicate that:

The first layer is black. I thin it enough so it can flow into all the tight spaces. It ends up being more of a stain than a coat of paint. I basically want it to soak into the parts to give them a fairly even base color. Then I dry brush on a layer of yellow ocher. I put it on fairly heavily, but I still want some of the black showing through. Then I dry brush on a layer of metallic gold. Finally, I wash over it with dark green, like camoflage or olive. That's it! 

I don't worry about dry brushing the areas that are recessed or that are inside surfaces. You'll never be able to reach them, and it actually gives the part more depth.

Okay, now I have a question for you. Some of the parts as I've built them get expensive. Some people might prefer to scratchbuild things like the tanks themselves. Would you like me to make alternate versions without tanks, etc.? I would make diagrams of part layouts if you'd prefer to scratchbuild them yourself. Anyways, it's always an option. Just let me know.


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## jbond (Aug 29, 2002)

Well, how expensive? I don't see myself scratching those big tanks but maybe the tube-shaped, smaller ones that are built into some of the structure. I've already sunk over $150 into this but it looks like there's a lot more to go.


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## PrimitiveDave (Jul 10, 2009)

Well, the power modules work out to about $20 a piece. You need two. Fuel module A with all the tanks comes in at $30; you also need two. There's a fuel module B, which I haven't even priced yet, again times two. Observatories (two), engines (six, of different configuerations), and control tower will also probably end up in the $15 - $30 range. I'm kind of resigned to the fact that I'm going to be spending A LOT on this, over time. I'll be happy to make other options available...


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## Frank2056 (Mar 23, 2007)

Dave, overall, the prints look great. If it looks like a Moire pattern on the observatory dome, then it's probably a combination of not enough polygons, the printing orientation that Shapeways used and their reducing the printer resolution to increase the throughput. 

You can check the polygon issue with netfabb (which is free). Save a version of the dome with a higher polygon count, then compare the STL file that you had printed with the new higher polygon count version. 

You may also want to get a quote from PCS Engineering. They're more expensive than Shapeways, but you get 1:1 attention and they can really produce near-perfect prints.

Frank


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## jbond (Aug 29, 2002)

The pricing doesn't bother me (although if you went to a more expensive printer it might)--particularly if you're putting the sets out once a month or every other month, I can scrape that together. Although I can see that building the inner structure is going to be more complicated than I thought--I forgot about that long hexagonal corridor that runs through the center (count on me to forget one of the most obvious design elements of the ship).


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## jbond (Aug 29, 2002)

Not to alarm anyone--just wondering if any further progress has been made with this?


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## CLBrown (Sep 8, 2010)

jbond said:


> Wow. If that's the worst stair-stepping I can certainly deal with that. What color are you painting the frames? I want to duplicate that...


That's pretty much typical for this sort of process. While you can reduce it a bit, every time you increase the layer count, you increase the cost. The cost of the resin is a part of the part cost, but the "machine time" is by far the biggest element of the cost. Reduce layer thickness to 1/2, and you double the number of layers, which means you double the machine time, and thus effectively double the cost of the part.

There are also materials-related issues with this sort of process... every material has a "minimum layer thickness." When using a laser-cured epoxy fluid (which is what Shapeways normally uses... through the SLA process), for example, the surface tension of the fluid is the main defining factor behind the layer minimum thickness. When using "selective laser sintering, the minimum layer thickness is defined by granule size. And when using "3D printing" (the worst of the three I've mentioned) it has to do with the nature of the "wax polymer ink" which you're "printing."

It's possible to get an SLA part with "stepping" which is less noticeable and prominent than the human fingerprint is. You'll still need a light sanding to remove it entirely, but it's pretty trivial. With the other processes, "filling" almost becomes a necessity for complex shapes.


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## SteveR (Aug 7, 2005)

That's amazing, Dave. I'm looking forward to seeing more images!


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## publiusr (Jul 27, 2006)

Glad to see Cygnus getting love again.


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## Scorpitat (Oct 7, 2004)

Almost makes me want to dig out my U.S.S. Cygnus kit and start building it...almost. But hey, it's a grail kit, so that may not happen! LOL

Sincerely,
Scorp. :wave:


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