# Which clay is better?



## Dyonisis (Nov 11, 2009)

I know that this is a newbie question, but I don't use this type of clay usually so I need an answer to an 10 second question - OK 3 questions, but only 10 seconds to read this entire post: Which is better? Scuply, Miliput, of Aves Apoxie sculpt? Do you have to bake it to use it, and does it have any sulpher to react to silicone? I'm also aware of the old time plasticine clay, but WAAAYYYY to expensive for no more than I'm using at the moment. I just need enough to sculpt a fighter pilot for my X-wing kit. I might also sell copies of this for those who want a studio accurate TIE fighter pilot as the ILM team used the same one back in the day. 

~ Chris​


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## machgo (Feb 10, 2010)

Aves Apoxy Sculpt all the way. But I've never tried Milliput....

You do not have to bake it, and it cures to a consistency I find to be very much like styrene. It will give sharp, hard details unlike Sculpey, and it can be machined. I love the stuff. 

It did not inhibit Oomoo 25 or 30 silicone. I doubt it would give you problems regardless of what silicone you are using.


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## Mark McGovern (Apr 25, 1999)

Dio,

Aves Apoxie Sculpt and Milliput are both two-part epoxy putties. Both require that equal amounts of each part be mixed together; once that's taken place, you get maybe an hour's working time before the putty sets too hard to model. Although both can be smoothed with water, Aves makes a "Safety Solvent" that I find superior because it doesn't cause the putty to become grainy and lose adhesion the way water can.

I prefer the Aves product because it's much softer and easier to work than Milliput. The Apoxie Sculpt come packaged in plastic tubs, from which I can dig equal-sized pellets. Milliput comes in two hard rods of putty; equivalent slices must be cut off, then kneaded together.

Sculpy is a thermoforming polymer clay. It is formed into the desired shape, then baked in a low oven, around 250 degrees, until the putty has hardened. It's better for making parts to be added to a model than for modeling a feature onto plastic.

Each of these products have their own strengths and weaknesses, which makes each more suited for some jobs than others. Here's one example: I used Aves Apoxie Sculpt to hide the seams of Aurora's Creature From the Black Lagoon; Sculpy was used to make an interior mouth piece for the hollow lizard, along with a replacement snake. Some experimentation will help you decide which to use and when.


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## Dyonisis (Nov 11, 2009)

OK. I have another couple questions. How do you mould this without deforming the parts in the oven until baked, or do you have to bake it to make a casting from it? I'm not adding this to styrene - this is strictly for making a new pilot only. Everything else on the model is styrene, and woodfiller for cost, and ease of use.


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## Mark McGovern (Apr 25, 1999)

Dio,

I presume you're asking about the Sculpy. One way is to form the clay in a mold, then chill it in the fridge; it will become hard enough to hold its shape so it can be popped from the mold and baked. This was the technique I used for the interior of the lizard, holding the two body halves together with tape while I modeled the inside of its mouth. The whole assembly went into the fridge for an hour or so, then I separated the lizard halves, pulled out the insert, and baked it.

Sculpy can also be applied over an armature, which must be able to withstand the heat of the oven. I wrapped thin wire around a length of rolled aluminum foil and covered that with Sculpy to make the Creature's snake. The snake's jaw was modeled separately - a piece made from Sculpy can have more putty added to it and then refired in the oven. Be careful doing this, as too much heat can make the first hardened part get brittle.

I have seen molds made for Sculpy in the crafts stores. Apparently they're sturdy enough to have the clay pressed into them to form it, but flexible enough to be peeled off the clay prior to baking it. I've never used these molds, so that's all I can tell you about them.

Or, you could make a form from Sculpy and harden it, then once it has cooled, add details using epoxy putty (which was probably how I should have done the snake's jaw). It sounds like you're planning to make more than one pilot figure. If that's the case your best bet would simply be to make a rubber mold and cast the figures in resin. I like Alumilite's products for that.


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## Dyonisis (Nov 11, 2009)

Correct. I'm using Sculpey easy bake clay. I just want to use it to make a body with the head attached. The arms would be made separately. I wonder if I just make the parts then fire them if I could mould them in silicone rubber without worrying about sulpher ruining my mould. I can make an armature - no problem. I read that this gets hard as it sits even without baking, but still plyable. Not air hardened. This stuff is meant to be baked for durability. I just wonder if I have to bake it, or if I could cast it raw. If I have to bake it anyway I will. I just don't want chemical differences to cause a reaction that will ruin my rubber mould. Have you had experience with it doing this?


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## Mark McGovern (Apr 25, 1999)

Dio,

Ya got me there. I don't know anything about the sulphur content of hardened Sculpy. You could try coating your baked master with lacquer to serve as a barrier for your RTV material; that might solve any potnetial sulpur issues.


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## spawndude (Nov 28, 2007)

Gotta throw Magic sculpt into the mix too!

I have all of them but find myself reaching for the Milliput. In all honesty I believe its only because I've used it for many years and am going with something I know.

Reminds me of the question back in the old days "Ford or Chevy"?


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

plasticine is not expensive either although it does not harden and can get soft if the temperature goes up. You can get a pound box of it for $3. The epoxy modelling putties like Aves, Milliput etc will set you back $5-$9 for a small package. But its an apples and oranges comparison. Sculpy and Fimo are oven baked hardening clays. You can get a small pack of them cheaply at Hobby Lobby using their 40% off coupon. You can do some good work with that stuff. One advantage is you have forever to work on it before you bake it. And you can bake it, add more clay, bake it some more. Or make a core figure, bake it, and add detail with Aves etc.


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## Mark McGovern (Apr 25, 1999)

dj,

The concern here is that plasticine clay contain sulphur, which reacts unfavorably with RTV moldmaking rubbers. There are synthetic clays that circumvent the problem, but may be too soft for the application Dionysis has in mind.


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

I would not use plasticine anyway. It is too soft and variable to work with for any kind of detail work. But it is cheap.


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## rtbeuke (Sep 29, 2008)

I use sculpey all of the time to create various parts when I'm build. I had just recently made a base for my 1:350th Flying sub:



I have a twenty pound box of the stuff that is over four years old and although it gets firm just sitting there it does not harden. Needing it will make it soft and pliable again and ready for sculpting. Then bake to make it hard. Sculpey is a PVC based polymer clay and I have never had problems with it affecting the molds that I have made. Looked at their site but could not find if it contained any sulpher.


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## Mark McGovern (Apr 25, 1999)

rt,

I looked at some of your other pictures. Was that your Storm Trooper gal at the IPMS Region 4 contest in Dayton a couple weeks ago? I judged the Sc-Fi/Fantasy Figures category - you did very nice work!


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## rtbeuke (Sep 29, 2008)

McG, Sorry to say it was not my Storm Trooper gal, but I know the one and it was very nice! I have only been sculpting small items for now but have a few ideas for figures that I want to try in the future.


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## Mark McGovern (Apr 25, 1999)

rt,

Your work with figures has been pretty impressive thus far; I'll await your next creations with bated breath!


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## rat salad (Oct 18, 2004)

I used Milliput for the first time lastnight, and it worked out very well. I had to build a mound of dirt for my PL Wolfman's front foot peg. As it dried it allowed me to fit his foot peg into a perfectly shaped hole for it, and allowed me to texture the mound. And it dried beautifully. It also didn't stick to his styrene foot, allowing me to remove it for painting separately. I used the White Milliput. Have not tried any of the other brands yet. I'm probably going to be using it again for the tree. I have trimmed the main branch down and am going to have to rework the way it's connected to the tree trunk. This way he's lunging over the top of it, instead of lunging through it. And you'll get a better view of him....I hated the way it came up directly in front of him.


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## Mark McGovern (Apr 25, 1999)

rats',

Your Wolfie's looking good. FYI, the other Milliputs work pretty much the same as the white stuff. The color merely denotes that you have the finest-grain putty.

Here's a tip about working with epoxy putty that you might find useful, given the model you're currently building: it's easy to overestimate the amount of putty you'll need for a given application, so what to do with the excess? One thing you can do is apply the putty to some other project. For example, I started a Captain America and blanked the back of his wall of with sheet styrene; every time I had some extra epoxy putty, I'd use it to repeat the molded pattern from stones on the front of the wall onto the flat styrene back. 

Another thing you can do is form the extra putty into useful shapes. "Crazy Joe" Nejberger told me he molds leftover epoxy putty into teeth for the dinosaurs he's known for building. I mold my leftovers into rocks or stones, to be used on diorama bases or for walls. A folded piece of sandpaper or sanding stick helps make sharp edges on the stones while imparting a realistic texture to the putty.

A brand of epoxy putty that's easy to find and relatively cheap is a product called PC-7. You'll see it in the plumbing section of hardware/home improvement stores, often under a display that has a golf ball glued to a Coke bottle with the stuff. PC-7 is a very gooey two-part epoxy, not nearly stiff enough to hold detail. Buy when you want to use it inside a model where detail doesn't matter, to anchor a mounting pin perhaps, it's more cost effective than dedicated hobby putty.

It puts out more heat as it cures than the more expensive putties do, so you have to be careful not to pack a lot inside of thin plastic parts. On the other hand, PC-7 can be smoothed with water before it cures. It's one more example of how many different products can be used to handle different modeling jobs.


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## rat salad (Oct 18, 2004)

Thank you for the tips, Mark. Luckily, I cut off two little pieces of Milliput that happened to be the exact amount to build my Wolfie's front footing. I'll remember your tip when I'm using it again though. Some good ideas. I thought of making rocks too. Easy, huh? 

One of the things this Wolfman lacks is fingernails and toenails. Sadly, at this point I have to ignore that...he's already primer coated. I haven't worked that small yet either, with this putty. I know I could make the pieces, it's just a matter of getting them connected to him...smoothly. I would have loved to have given him pointed ears too. This guys ears are crappy. Oh, and his eye definition is horrid. The production of this kit seems to have been a good idea gone bad. Here's got all kinds of tiny bumps and blemishes. This is the longest I've spent prepping a model in years. I've been putting time into him every night for almost 2 weeks now. Crazy....but I am determined to make him beautiful, er uhh, ugly as he would have it.


Question:
What do I glue his styrene foot to the Milliput mound with?
Plastic modeling glue, crazy glue, 2-part epoxy?????? More wet Milliput, when I'm ready??????


Oh, and I broke out my trusty woodburner, and put the hair back into him wherever it got sanded down from cleaning up seams (top of his head and his feet). I used it on King Kong with great success. The thing about the woodburner is there is no room for error. It's like taking a toothpick to a stick of butter at room temp. You have to barely, barely press. Then you gotta sand it and clean it up with a needle nose file. But it works great for cleaning up seamed hair areas.


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## Mark McGovern (Apr 25, 1999)

rat salad said:


> ...This guys ears are crappy...


You said it. Plus I felt that his head was too shallow, looking from front to back. I made down-and-dirty casts of a set of Aurora Wolf Man ears, pressing the front head half into some modeling clay, then filling the "molds" with five minute epoxy. I Dremelled small craters on the sides of the Polar Lights Wolfie head and stuck the ears on with super glue. Once that had set up, I used Aves to blend the ears in and fill out the back of the head.




rat salad said:


> Question: What do I glue his styrene foot to the Milliput mound with?


Answer: Super glue or epoxy cement; either is good for adhering dissimilar materials. I think the adhesive quality of epoxy putty is overrated. Oh, it'll stick where you put it all right. But the putty's bond isn't strong enough to hold parts together under much of any stress.




rat salad said:


> ...I broke out my trusty woodburner...you gotta sand it and clean it up with a needle nose file.


I usually carve with knives and files to restore hair after puttying a seam myself, but if you're comfortable with a woodburner, more power to you! Whenever I have to shape details in styrene or ABS plastic with these tools, I go over the work with a brush that's moist - but not dripping wet - with lacquer thinner. The solvent melts the sharp edges of the carved areas, making them look more like molded-in detail. Liquid cement or MEK would probably work also.


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## rat salad (Oct 18, 2004)

Mark McGovern said:


> Whenever I have to shape details in styrene or ABS plastic with these tools, I go over the work with a brush that's moist - but not dripping wet - with lacquer thinner. The solvent melts the sharp edges of the carved areas, making them look more like molded-in detail. Liquid cement or MEK would probably work also.


Yes, I have some Plastruct Plastic Weld, and that stuff does the same thing. I never thought of using it for something like that. It paints on like water and slightly melts the plastic. Leaves it kinda shiny though, but I can cover it with more primer. Cool! I'll definitely try it next time.

I use files too for stuff like this usually, but I got this done really quickly as opposed to filing. I did have to go back in and do quite a bit of filing touchups after I used the woodburner.

What did you do about his lacking nails? I can't believe he's a clawless werewolf.

Thanks, Mark!


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## Mark McGovern (Apr 25, 1999)

rat salad said:


> What did you do about his lacking nails? I can't believe he's a clawless werewolf.


You can do a couple of different things and both are simple. The easiest would be to simply paint the nails on after you're done with the flesh tones. If you draw the nails in with a pencil it will provide you with an outline and add a little definition to the claws. After Wolifie is all done and clear coated, you could brush a dab of clear gloss over each nail to give it a little thickness.

If you wanted to go the extra mile, you might file a little flat spot on the ends of the fingers and toes, to further refine the claws' positions, then pencil and paint as I outlined above.


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## Mark McGovern (Apr 25, 1999)

Dionysis said:


> I wish that someone would've been decent enough to post a review on this BEFORE I bought it.


Dio,

If you'll refer to my first post (#3), you'll see that I said Sculpey wasn't the best for working fine details. In my response to your subsequent post I went on to say that Sculpey could be useful to make a basic form over which finer details could be added in epoxy putty. It's not bad stuff to work with, but it's not suited for every modeling application, either. 



You say that you're making a pilot figure. I would approach the project in one of three ways, forming the molding materials over a suitable armature:
Use Sculpey to create a basic form and harden it in your oven. After this first construction had cooled, I would add details like wrinkles in the clothing, etc. and fire the piece again (I've read that a hot air paint stripper gun can also be used to harden Sculpey). Finally I'd add equipment and fire one last time.
Make the Sculpey pilot form and add details using epoxy putty. Again, I prefer Aves Apoxie Sculpt smoothed with their Safety Solvent.
Just do the entire figure with Aves. This would take some time as I'd want to allow several hours for each application to set up before adding more detail to the soft piece.
There's no right or wrong way to do a job like this, only the method that you're most comfortable using.


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

THe thing with Scupley or any of the putties is you don't sculpt the whole thing at once. You make a core and add on to it. Most of the sculpting putties and clays are soft. You work in stages making a solid core you can add fine detail on top of.


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## rat salad (Oct 18, 2004)

Dyonisis said:


> OK. I tried the Sculpy, and IT SUCKS!!!  It's like trying to sculpt with poop - baby poop!


Sounds like you need to let it dry some before you start modeling with it. Milliput is gooey too when you first start rolling the two compounds together. I used rubber gloves. Once the compounds were mixed, and after rolling around and kneeding it with gloves, I was able to take the gloves off and start working with it like clay, not poop! Water helps smooth it, but at this point you need some little modeling toys.


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## Mark McGovern (Apr 25, 1999)

rat salad said:


> Sounds like you need to let it dry some before you start modeling with it. Milliput is gooey too...


Dear Mr. Salad,

Sculpey doesn't dry, it has to be heated, which solidifies it. Milliput doesn't dry, either - it cures as a result of the same type of chemical reaction that hardens epoxy cement. Poop (either that from babies or others) _does_ dry, when the water it contains evaporates.

You're welcome.

- Dr. Sheldon Cooper


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## mcdougall (Oct 28, 2007)

I thought Clay changed his name to Ali?
Ducks and runs...
Mcdee


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## rat salad (Oct 18, 2004)

Mark McGovern said:


> Milliput doesn't dry, either - it cures as a result of the same type of chemical reaction that hardens epoxy cement.


Dry, cure, evaporate.....how about when "it's done what it needs to be doing".
How's that?


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## Pun13 (Mar 19, 2008)

Guys, you can store unused Aves in the freezer. I had two tubs in the freezer for close to 5 years and just took them out. Fresh as the day I bought it.

Also, to keep it fresh on your workbench cover the openings with Saran Wrap before replacing the tops.


Tom


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## Dyonisis (Nov 11, 2009)

Mark McGovern said:


> Dio,
> 
> If you'll refer to my first post (#3), you'll see that I said Sculpey wasn't the best for working fine details. In my response to your subsequent post I went on to say that Sculpey could be useful to make a basic form over which finer details could be added in epoxy putty. It's not bad stuff to work with, but it's not suited for every modeling application, either.
> 
> There's no right or wrong way to do a job like this, only the method that you're most comfortable using.


I'm sorry, Mark. I bought this before I posted this thread. However, I didn't use it until after reading your posts. It makes more sense to do it the way you suggested. It worked out better. I can't resculpt this too much - it says not to over bake in the instructions. I don't know how many times you can do this until it's too brittle to use. I added a guitar string to this for detail while it was soft to make it permanently imbedded into the clay. It's easier for me to freeze this, then work it so that my details, and form aren't lost while handling this. I baked it a few days ago, but it stayed soft after the initial 15 minutes that it stated to bake for on the package. This made it more like a hard rubber than hardened clay.

I broke on of the feet off, but I'm not worried. After what I already went through this is the least of my worries. I was just going to mould this cut off at the knees, but I wanted to make this exactly like the ILM models. I could've saved a lot of time just using the original MPC dragster figure that they recycled for this kit, but I sent that to Texas for a member of another forum to use for his kit - he lost the original one. It doesn't matter either way since their version is a little too big. I'll post pictures of this when I get brave enough to do the rest of the detail on the helmet. 


djnick66 said:


> THe thing with Scupley or any of the putties is you don't sculpt the whole thing at once. You make a core and add on to it. Most of the sculpting putties and clays are soft. You work in stages making a solid core you can add fine detail on top of.


 I should've made an armature, but the stuff kept sticking to my hands. It was so small that the heat from my skin just softened it, and therefore made it twice as hard to work with. What you say about adding details after the major form is made makes more sense. That's what I'll do when I can get back to it. I just made cut marks in it to remind me where the creases are supposed to be when finshed. These depressions will make the creases deeper, and more realistic. I made the arms a little bigger than I needed to, but I did this with the entire figure so that I could sand as much deformation out after baking. We'll see what happens next.


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## modelnutz (Sep 21, 2009)

Hasbro toy sculpting trick number 7...

Add 20 to 25% Fimo ( firm ) clay to Super Sculpty for a firmer clay that is better at holding details

another helpful tip from the peanut gallery


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## Mark McGovern (Apr 25, 1999)

Dio,

Experience is the most effective teacher. Even if you foul the whole thing up the first time, your second try will be better. We have confidence you'll nail it sooner or later, lad! :thumbsup:


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## Dyonisis (Nov 11, 2009)

Honestly, I've been thinking about using another brand of clay that's a lot harder, but I have another question: Is Sculpey III any different, or better than original Sculpey? I've looked at Plasticina brand, Fimo, and a few others, but I wonder if there's a difference between the Sculpey makes. There's not a lot of clays available in my neck of hillbilly heaven. I'd have to search the internet for suppliers of Aves, or Milliput.


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## Mark McGovern (Apr 25, 1999)

Dio,

I can't speak to the differences in the Sculpey and Fimo brands because I don't use these materials all that much. You can order Aves directly from the company. Their prices and service are excellent.


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## SJF (Dec 3, 1999)

I prefer Aves over everything else. It's really the best two-part putty out there for sculpting. 

Sean


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