# Will we ever see the pirates of the Caribbean kits again?



## wolfman66 (Feb 18, 2006)

I was just wondering if anyone knows if they'll ever reissue these kits again and also who owns the molds to them?


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## rat salad (Oct 18, 2004)

I'll sign the petition. That and I want the Haunted Mansion series released again.
Hell, while we're at it throw in the whole Monster Scenes line...


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## DinoMike (Jan 1, 1970)

wolfman66 said:


> I was just wondering if anyone knows if they'll ever reissue these kits again and also who owns the molds to them?



They were originally MPC kits, which means that RC2 owns the molds.... which means there's slim to no chance of ever seeing them again.


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## Dave Metzner (Jan 1, 1970)

Pirates of the Caribbean kits won't happen as long as RC-2 owns the tooling. I'm pretty sure that RC-2 can't re-issue those kits and make money doing it.
Right now the Pirates Of The Caribbean license has got to cost REAL BIG dollars.
I can't believe that there is sufficient market for those kits for RC-2 to re-issue them at a profit after paying mega bucks for the license!

Dave


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## Capt. Krik (May 26, 2001)

If RC2 hasn't re-released them after 2 hit movies, it sems unlikely they ever will. This would be the time to release them but since they're not listed on RC2's new releases slate I wouldn't hold out much hope.

This is assuming that the tooling for those kits still exist.


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

It's a shame that Polar Lights couldn't go in a different direction with the right people and became *Aurora Models* re-born, of course the gathering of all the molds that have been sent in every direction the wind can carry and the major bucks that would take would have cost some major bucks.

As for RC2 ....I'm pretty sure they have gave it thought but looked at graphs and charts saying that plastic models sales aimed at certian ages have declined and are not worth the effort. 

I'm just happy that Polar Lights did what they did in the time they had while in business...what a fun ride it was and I salute all that was involved!! :thumbsup:


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## Dave Metzner (Jan 1, 1970)

Two hit movies means that the license will cost way too much money! I believe we're talking about Disney as the licensor here, trust me, they know what the property is worth. 
With the third movie on it's way this spring Disney will demand MEGA BUCKS for a license and RC-2 won't pony up that kind of money to do figure kits. 
(I wouldn't invest in this project either if I were in RC-2's shoes)

Also the kits are not even remotely related to the movies, so movie fans will not be motivated to buy them.
These kits will only sell to a niche group - not near enough volume to pay for the big hit a manufacturer will take paying licensing fees. 
Sorry these kits are not a profitable undertaking for a company like RC-2.

Dave


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## TAY666 (Jan 8, 2000)

I agree with Dave.
The only way these would even have a chance of coming out would be to change the name and just call them something like Dead Pirates or something.
But I doubt even that would work. As Disney isn't stupid. And would find a way to make RC2 pay for issuing them.
Besides, if they changed the name there wouldn't be nearly enough demand to make them worth issuing anyway.
One of the reasons these kits cost so much now, isn't just because they are popular with model builders/collectors. They are also interesting to Disney collectors.


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## F91 (Mar 3, 2002)

I guess my business sense is a bit more creative. Anyone notice the Peter Pan Pirate ship that was recently released had NO tie-in to Pirates of the Carribean? Like Trevor says,Just because the old models were tie ins to Disney doesn't mean the new ones have to be. However, If the liscense was used, I think the sales of those kits at all the Disney stores and theme parks would outweigh all the Hobbyshop sales combined. RC2 and Disney could have an argreement to divy up sales and offset initial liscense costs. It could be done and make money, you just can't use an old school business model. Take the Barris Batmobile, old school folks diggin their heels in and NOT making any money because of it. I don't want to hear why they won't do it, I want to hear why they will.


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## aurora fan (Jan 18, 1999)

Because the license cost is so high noone can enjoy the kits!!?? What a weird wacked out world this is. I sure see lots of 6.99 P.ot C. Halloween costumes out there for sale this year. Does Disney get like .30 per costume? How much money of a model kit (pre-existing model kit) is in the cost of the model? .10, .20 is it a dollar? Theres gotta be a better reason! The posters at Wal-mart are only a dollar!


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## Dave Metzner (Jan 1, 1970)

Trust me - Pirates of the Caribbean model kits in styrene won't be profitable for RC-2 

RC-2 is convinced that Styrene figure kits as a class of product is never going to be profitable. Their costs of doing business are too high for them to mess around with small volume products like figure kits. 
They need sales volumes somewhere in the 25,000 - 50,000 pieces per kit range. 
We didn't have many figure kits sell more than 20,000 pieces at Polar Lights - 
The Pirates of the Caribbean kits might sell 10-15000 units - that's WAY short of the numbers RC-2 would need.
Even with our low overhead @ Polar Lights I don't think we could have made money on those kits!

#1 There is NO comparison between the volume of halloween costumes sold annually and the number of styrene figure kits sold annually - Trust me styrene figure kit volume is a tiny fraction of halloween costume sales! 

#2 Disney Won't make creative licensing deals to do model kits - you either do it their way or you don't do it!

#3 "Dead Pirates" kits will not sell well enough to pay the cost of shipping the tools to China. The only possible way those kits could be made to sell any volume at all would be to tie them to the movies! 
Which brings us right back to the gigantic licensing fee that will come with the movie properties!


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## F91 (Mar 3, 2002)

AND...... The Barris Batmobile will never be a liscensed product for consumers ever again!!!!!!!!!


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## Dave Metzner (Jan 1, 1970)

I beg your pardon, but the Barris Batmobile is a bad comparison to Pirates of the Caribbean kits.
My guess is that Mattel probably spent big money for that Barris Batmobile liscense - they can afford to spend big money - they'll sell a billion Batmobiles probably in 12 different versions and 6 different die-cast scales over the life of their license.
THE TV Batmobile is an ICON and Mattel will make money with that license. 

There is no comparison between the level of demand for the TV Batmobile and the MPC Pirates of the Caribbean kits.
Three generations of TV watchers know the Barris Batmobile while a few hard core styrene figure modelers remember the relatively obscure MPC Pirates of the caribbean kits.

Disney will probably expect more money for Pirates of the Caribbean than Mattel paid for Batmobile - and the return on investment would be a small fraction of the Batmobile.

I return to my basic premise - Re-issuing the MPC Pirates of the Caribbean kits is not profitable enough for RC-2.

Dave


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## Ravenauthor (Jan 24, 2004)

They don't have to be re-released under the PotC license, they could issue them without the tie-in like Revell did with the Peter Pan ship, but I still don't see it ever happening.


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## PRE-SCENES 2 (Aug 16, 2005)

I know! I know Dave, licensing issue, BUT maybe our buddy here, 31 Racine Road, in the future could somehow finagle (sp?) a way to re-pop them!?!?!?!?
http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=141166&page=1&pp=15&highlight=racine


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## beck (Oct 22, 2003)

has anybody heard from Mr. Road lately ? i was wondering how things were going for him . 
hb


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## Dave Metzner (Jan 1, 1970)

How do you think Racine Road's going to work that deal????
Even if he gets RC-2 to run kits for him, he's still got to pay Disney!
I don't think he's got that kind of money.

The key to selling those kits is the NAME Pirates of the Caribbean. You won't sell really big volumes of the kits even with the name - without it you'll sell no volume!

I know this to be true because I saw how poorly the Bellringer sold for Polar Lights after the name change! We ended up selling Bellringers on a close out - never had to re-order that kit! I can assure you it was not a money maker!

This thread is going nowhere really fast. 

There are plenty of Pirates of the Caribbean Movie resin and white metal Garage kits out there - some real nice likeneses of Captain Jack - Davey Jones and some other movie characters.
All are priced a bit higher than styrene kits would be bit they are available!

The only way I can see that the original kits will be repoped is if a resin caster decides to do them - 

Dave


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## beck (Oct 22, 2003)

that's true . if someone like Retroresin might pick up on the idea . but with RC2 owning the tooling they'd probably C&D it if they caught wind of it . 
hb


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## AFILMDUDE (Nov 27, 2000)

So let's get this straight - RC2 would "never" release them because the line couldn't possibly be profitable. And yet the they would probably go after any one who recasts them because it would be stealing possible future profits. That makes sense.

Sure wish RetroResin WOULD recast them. I bought two kits from them in the past - both of exceptional quality. I think the Pirates and Haunted Mansion lines would really do well.


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## Dave Hussey (Nov 20, 1998)

Hey Dave,

I have never understood why RC2 doesn't sell off the model kit assets that it views as unprofitable. It seems to me that their prime focus is on other products and that they have no interest in plastic model kits.

Yet they keep those assets. I am perplexed by that. Can you help me understand what they are thinking?

Cheers Dave!

Huzz


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## ChrisW (Jan 1, 1970)

Purely hypothetical question - would Retro-Resin technically be able to do the Pirates/Haunted Mansion kits? The original kits were styrene and were notorious for breaking from the stress of the "snap action"- how would resin hold up to that kind of use? I suppose they could be done in resin with the caveat that they be kept static - but that loses some of the charm, doesn't it?


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## beck (Oct 22, 2003)

Dude , the model side of RC2 has really never made any sense to me . they may not want to put these kits out but the fact is they own the tooling . 
as CW said , if they won't release these or any of the PL kits then why don't they sell off the tools ? 
for one thing ,if folks are buying plastic kits that means they're not buying little metal cars .
hb


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## Dave Metzner (Jan 1, 1970)

Huzz, 
I have no way to explain why RC-2 won't sell old tools that they have no interest in placing in production...I can only guess that it's more trouble for them to find those tools and make sure that they're complete and in working condition than to just say "not for sale".
I'm also going to guess that the asking price for those tools will be higher than a small entreprenurial comapny will be able to justify
I personaly would not bet that any of those tools still exist - If they do still exist there's a chance that they're incomplete.

Chris, 
I'd guess that resin versions of those kits with operating features might be a problem. The resin used and quality of the castings would make a big difference - Operating features might work better if "Cold cast Porcelain" were used, as that material is harder and more ridgid than some other resin materials.
I've seen castings done in "Dental Resin" that would pass for injection molded styrene that resin might work well.
The quality of the finished product depends on the ingenuity and quality control of the resin caster doing the kits. 
Well done resin kits will be alot more costly than mass produced styrene kits - my view is that the'll probably be less expensive than good originals bought on E-Bay

As for the concern that RC-2 would slap a C&D on a resin caster who repoped the POC kits, the probability is that Disney would be the more likely source for a Cease & Desist order.....
I know something about the costs of doing resin kits - the level of risk for a garage kit manufacturer is pretty low - it takes several thousands of kits to repay the investment in producing a styrene kit (even if the tooling still exists) while it should take less than 100 kits to turn a profit on a resin kit!

I keep coming back to the fact that anybody who wants to produce MPC Pirates of the Caribbean or Haunted Mansion in styrene again will need to strike a licensing deal with Disney.
Those kits without the original box art - original names - original Pirate of The Caribbean or Haunted Mansion logos will sit on the shelves.
That Disney license agreement is the big dollar stumbling block that I see in this.
I am convinced that there is insufficient demand for those kits (Even in the original boxes) to justify the financial risks that would be involved. 

Dave


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## rat salad (Oct 18, 2004)

I just don't understand the greed of Disney...
what's so wrong with letting a model company pop out old Disney models?(regardless if it ties in with the new movies). So what if it doesn't sell gazillions.
Why can't Disney just say, "Okay, we're giving you the rights, do whatever you want, put our stamp on it, and this is the share of profit we want? We both make money." If it's a small run and doesn't sell huge, who cares? It's not like one small line of models that didn't sell well is going to topple the Disney empire. I can see it now on CNN, "The Walt Disney Company has gone bankrupt, closed it doors and shutdown. No more Disney folks. It seems a recent line of styrene models didn't sell well and has ruined the whole entire company. Mickey and Donald, we bid you a fond farewell."
 
Disney is supposed to be about kids, imagination, fantasy, wonder, excitement.....not profit margins and "we're a bunch of greedy bastards. Nobody's getting these models, go away." What a bunch of scrooges.....


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## aurora fan (Jan 18, 1999)

rat salad makes the point well. No one should question your knowledge in this subject area, Dave. Thanks for the insight, it does come off like corporate greed to the highest degree.


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## xsavoie (Jun 29, 1999)

I agree with RAT.These kits might just increase the popularity and revive the interest of these old Disney creations,such as Haunted Mansion,Pirates of the Caribbean,as well as the Nautilus from 20,000 Leagues Under The Sea.The model kit company would be doing them a favor by reissuing these kits,and not the other way around.Especially if the kit companies make visible on the boxes that these kits are based on Disney creations.This is free publicity for Disney and they get paid for it as well.Let's face it,these old Disney creations are not as popular today as they once were in the past.This fact should be communicated to them.Maybe some of the Disney executives still have half a brain.


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## irvfrbsh (Oct 29, 2006)

The worst thing is, is what Disney sees as small we would see as huge. They're more than happy to work with companies to put product out, but it has to be worth their while. One thing companies like Disney look at first is the need to be guaranteed a minimum amount for time and expenses they initially put out. Lawyers, research and other factors come into play. They're a public company. They have stockholders to answer to as far as profit. As silly as it sound, they have to guard themselves against liability for products with their name on it, even if they don't produce it. So many factors go into getting a product like this out, it's hard to imagine. Not saying that I wouldn't like it if I could get my hands on a few more sets myself! Not trying to stick up for Disney, but I just know what their precautions are in just letting someone loose to use their name and intellectual property.


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## rat salad (Oct 18, 2004)

irvfrbsh said:


> The worst thing is, is what Disney sees as small we would see as huge. They're more than happy to work with companies to put product out, but it has to be worth their while. One thing companies like Disney look at first is the need to be guaranteed a minimum amount for time and expenses they initially put out. Lawyers, research and other factors come into play. They're a public company. They have stockholders to answer to as far as profit. As silly as it sound, they have to guard themselves against liability for products with their name on it, even if they don't produce it. So many factors go into getting a product like this out, it's hard to imagine. Not saying that I wouldn't like it if I could get my hands on a few more sets myself! Not trying to stick up for Disney, but I just know what their precautions are in just letting someone loose to use their name and intellectual property.


So, what's the worst that can happen if they let a "reputable" model company reissue these models? How can it possibly hurt them at all? Seriously, give me the worst case scenario. I mean, c'mon, Disney makes all kinds of novelty stuff that is not big selling. 

If they were smart they'd send kits like this out to places like Suncoast, Blockbuster, etc. They'd sell. Think of all the male baby-boomers who remembered seeing these kits advertised in comic books when they were growing up. Now they have money to scarf them up. How often do you see a Polar Lights kit in a model store anymore? I don't. They're gone. They've been bought. Anyway, Haunted Mansion and Pirates of the Carribean are super popular Disney properties with mass appeal (whether it's old-style or new-style). They are the 2 biggest fun rides in all the Disneyland parks. These kits wouldn't need to be released in conjunction with a movie. The real problem is we probably have a "higher-up" at Disney who has no interest in model kits. Which is a shame because Disney is all about the "childish imagination" and creativity.


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## irvfrbsh (Oct 29, 2006)

You missed my point. They WILL let any reputable company put them out, but there has to be a reputable company that can pay what they want. It's not a matter of them having novelty items that aren't big selling. They don't purposely put out something hoping it will sell mediocre. Most of it isn't put out by them anyways, it's licensed to other companies that wish it would sell as much as possible. You can blame it all on Disney's greed, but it's basic business sense that you have to have the expectation of making a profit to put something out. RC2 and Monorevell have both had huge overstocks of kits they thought would sell. You can't just send kits out to those mentioned companies. They have buyers. Most likely 20 something year olds that have no idea what it is. They have to see merit in it to spend the companies money on stock. As you know, Polar Lights kits aren't out there as RC2 discontinued 95% of them. They would still sell. But if you talk to Dave Metzner about it, I'm sure you'll realize that some of the kits didn't fly off the shelf, and weren't big money makers. Ever go to one of the warehouse sales at Playing Mantis and see how many kits were sitting at some points in time? There's always a risk. I agree that those are 2 extremely popular licenses. Disney isn't stupid by any means, or they wouldn't be where they are - rich and successful. They just want what they feel they deserve for letting someone use their property, who wouldn't? Disney and all the styrene companies are for profit companies, not garage kit companies that do it for the love of it. Like I said, don't get me wrong I'd love to be able to buy them again, but I understand the world revolves around money.


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## rat salad (Oct 18, 2004)

irvfrbsh said:


> You missed my point...........
> but there has to be a reputable company that can pay what they want.............
> They don't purposely put out something hoping it will sell mediocre..............
> but it's basic business sense that you have to have the expectation of making a profit to put something out.............
> ...


You can dress it up anyway you want but it's still "business" greed. Anyway you spell it, it's called greed. Plain and simple. They could pop these things out and it would barely put a dent in their wallet. Like I said before these models would not topple the Disney empire, right?


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## irvfrbsh (Oct 29, 2006)

Why is it greed when you have to make money to stay in business? I don't know of too many companies that make decisions based on anything other than profit. If you think Polar Lights was doing it out of love and not profit, you don't know Polar Lights very well either....


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

irvfrbsh said:


> Why is it greed when you have to make money to stay in business? I don't know of too many companies that make decisions based on anything other than profit. If you think Polar Lights was doing it out of love and not profit, you don't know Polar Lights very well either....


It's always "greed" when we greedy little modelers can't get what we want. I never thought those POC kits were all that cool in the first place.


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## rat salad (Oct 18, 2004)

irvfrbsh said:


> Why is it greed when you have to make money to stay in business?


It's greed when you're "already" filthy, rich and powerful. Now if you're a business struggling to stay afloat that's another story. This is not the case with Disney. They're already making money; they're already staying in business. Again, do you seriously think if this line flopped that it would hurt Disney? The answer is "no" it wouldn't hurt them at all. Because Disney will stay in business no matter if this line would sink or swim. Having a small model line fail would not hurt them at all, and to be honest I seriously doubt it would flop or injure their profit margin.......a product like this is only pennies in the bucket to Disney. If anything the failure of this line would hurt the model making company and not Disney. It would have little to no effect on Disney at all. 

If Walt was alive today he'd probably still be issuing Disney kits, but the powers that be who operate Disney today......well, let's just say Walt's most likely rolling in his grave at who operates his company now.


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## Dave Metzner (Jan 1, 1970)

Every time we have this discussion, it degenerates into the same ill-infomed name calling. Licensors, big companies, corporations - Disney, RC-2, Warner , DC Comics (or insert whichever name you like here) are all filthy rich and greedy. They're also all stupid because they won't make, or license whichever obscure or eclectic kits we want this week! 

I must remind everybody that I have some experience with the production of obscure kits - Dick Tracy's Space Coupe - Customizing Monster Kits just to name a couple of the bigger DOGS! 

First and foremost, Disney is a corporation. (So, by the way are most other large companies today)

Disney is actually owned by stockholdes and investors. When Disney does not make sufficient returns on investment (PROFITS) Disney Stock prices drop stock dividends shrink and investors buy stock in other corporations that provide a better return on investment.

This is the way big companies exist in America and the world today.

Greed has nothing to do with it!!!!! 

If you are a corporate manager that does not produce profit for your stock holders you will likely soon be an EX- corporate manager.

Secondly; Disney never made any model kits--------MPC made the kits, and they paid Disney a licensing fee for the priviledge! 
If Walt were running Disney today the Corporation would still demand pretty healthy licensing fees for Pirates of the Caribbean.
Disney was a big licensor when Walt was running things, just like they are now. Licensing is the way Disney controls the quality of everything produced in their name from model kits, to collector paltes, to stuffed toys and kiddies jammies! Licensing protects Disney from shoddy products on store shelves with Disney's name attached to them.
Licensing fees for the use of "intellectual properties" are a standard practice through out the entertainment industry and they have been standard practice for quite some time. 

In my opinion, calling licensors greedy or kit producers stupid because they won't do what we want, just amounts to a refusal to see reality.

Oh, just one more thing Playing Mantis and Polar Lights were in business to make money not just because Tom Lowe thought it was fun! 
This I know to be a fact because I was there!

Dave


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## rat salad (Oct 18, 2004)

Again, there are plenty of goods stamped by Disney to keep the empire afloat.

Sorry Dave, I'm new around here and I wasn't aware this was a sensitive subject. So what you're saying is these kits wouldn't make Disney any money? Not enough public interest? Is that it? I find that hard to believe. These models could sell outside of model shops (which is the only place I saw Polar Lights kits). Disney has more money (then Polar Lights did) and could advertise, fund and could mass market these. Like I said...think Suncoast, Spencers, Blockbuster, etc.; heck, even the Disney Store. Not to mention selling these in the Disneyworld park shops around the globe. They'd sell.....

"Secondly; Disney never made any model kits--------MPC made the kits, and they paid Disney a licensing fee for the priviledge!

This I don't understand. If both companies make a profit then why doesn't Disney give the model company the Disney stamp and say, "go to it guys, this is the share we want......." End of story. Why the licensing fee? Why should someone pay to make Disney money? Why can't Disney say, "you have our license just send us our share when all is said and done." This licensing fee garbage reeks. 

At least with models, your not paying some sweatshop in China the time to glue, assemble and finely paint an action figure. And yet Disney manufactures action figures. Heck, models are just sculpting, making the mold, pouring, popping the mold and packaging (I know there's lots of work in between, but not like an action figure). No assembly, no painting.....it's gotta be way cheaper then making a fully articulated action figure. Am I right?

Since you were in the business......Answer me this, do you personally feel these kits would "hurt" Disney? Seriously.

P.S.-Didn't mean to name call at all. I just see all the garbage they sell in the Disney Stores and can't comprehend how a model line could hurt them. I'm perplexed!


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## daikins (Jul 24, 2003)

This kinda thread always drives me nuts. Whereas I can appreciate fan enthusiasm, it always ends at the same place: nowhere.

My family has been involved on both sides of a very similar situation, either the "license-holder" or the "license-buyer".

Rat Salad, The Disney Co. needs to keep the fee substantial to make the POC models and any other Disney-related product in order to make a profit on failed license ventures as well as maintain a high standard in quality, 'cuz when the models suck, folks will blame Disney, not the company that made the kits. The shareholders perceive this as an instance in which a product "hurts Disney".

In reality, it's the license-buying company that is at largest risk. They have to put up all monies for the product, in all of it's aspects (development, advertisement, distribution, etc.) and then, on top of it, pay for the license and meet all product standards and demands of the licensing agreement. For most small companies, if the product is not a "sure thing success", the fee of the license will wipe them out.

Greed has nothing to do with it. In the case of the POC models, there just aren't enough people who want them. I have one of them, and I gotta say that they're just not that great. Fun? yes; Reflective of the Ride or the movie? No. 

We all have our kits that we're passionate about. For me, Polar Lights made the BEST batmobile kits on the market. I would cast the molds myself to get more of them. Sadly, the cost-benefit ratio proved me wrong.

Please, can we post more pics of models soon? Post a halloween model?

oy!
deane


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## Dave Metzner (Jan 1, 1970)

Daikins has it right. 
Bad product on shelves with Disney's logo will hurt Disney. 
Disney Licenses are expensive I know that to be fact.....Playing Mantis had a Disney License.....for Memory Lane collectible figures it was BIG dollars.
Disney is a VERY demanding licensor they exercise very tight control over the likenesses of their characters and even control the way their licensed products are packaged.
I'm trying to tell you all that MPC Pirates Of The Caribbean re-issues are NOT likely to be profitable. Even if you could use the existing tools for free.
Licenses are a big gamble for the licensee because he's obligated to pay the licensing fees even if he never sells the first licensed product. The licensor gets a guarantee the licensee gets an opportunity to produce an item attached to a big movie or comic book.
Dave


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## rat salad (Oct 18, 2004)

daikins said:


> Rat Salad, The Disney Co. needs to keep the fee substantial to make the POC models and any other Disney-related product in order to make a profit on failed license ventures....


Ahhh, so they do make failed license ventures then.
Seems to me these kits would make an excellent example to observe.
:tongue: 
Just kidding....


I think the problem in a nutshell is that Disney knows not enough young kids build models anymore. Which is just sad, because instead of learning a skill, being creative and establishing a hobby, most little boys nowadays would rather plug into an iPod, X-Box or Playstation and turn their brains into zombified, multimedia mush.


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## Dave Metzner (Jan 1, 1970)

Time to close this thread. I think the horse is dead - we can stop beating on it now.

Before I lock the thread - 
I Just want to say a quick word Regarding production in China. 
Everything that had a Playing Mantis logo on it was made in China - Johnny Lightning, Polar Lights, Memory Lanes - Slot Cars all were made in China. 

If RC-2 were to repop POC kits they'd be doing it in China

Revell and RC-2 model kits are produced there - as far as I know all the die cast cars on the store shelves come from China, 
Trumpeter and DML model kits come from China! Barbie dolls too!

Toys made in China are another of today's realities, I wish there was another answer but there isn't.

Dave


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