# Brushless Basic info



## X man (Dec 31, 2004)

Hi Been hearing about these systems. Would some one give me the low down on these systems. Cost set up and performance. Really tired of messing with motors. Racing in Upstate NY have not see any yet.
Thanks 
Dan


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## hankster (Jan 1, 1998)

The Novak system is what most tracks are now running. Novak has two motors available, the 4300 and the 5800. Those number refer to the RPM the motor puts out per volt. From what I have read the 4300 is slightly faster then a stock motor and the 5800 is slightly faster then a 19 turn motor.

The cost is as follows:
ESC & 4300 motor = $180
ESC $ 5800 motor = $220
4300 motor = $65
5800 motor = $80

The ESCs are the same so you can run either motor with the same ESC.


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## X man (Dec 31, 2004)

*thanks*

:thumbsup: 
Hank Thanks for the info so these motors do not wear out and need very little maintenance.
The Soldering Iron is really working very well. Going to build a scale system this week
Dan


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## hankster (Jan 1, 1998)

Really about the only thing to go wrong is a bearings going bad.... they can be repalced. The motor is completely sealed so 99% of dirt stays out of them.


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## DynoMoHum (Sep 25, 2001)

There is also a Novak SS+ controler for like $159... it's just a Novak SS witn new software that allows it to run both brushless and brushed motors, as well as allowing it to have some adjustable parameters such as drag braking strength, minimum throttle, dead zone, etc... 

LRP is on the verge of releasing their controler and motor... the motor should be a little stronger then the Novak 5800, and the controler should handle a little more power as well. It remains to be seen if the controler itself will allow Novak motors to go any faster... (it will be able to work with both of the Novak motors) Novak says their controler is not able to run a motor with the power of the LRP/Reedy, so you won't be able to use your Novak SS with the LRP motor... Since these aren't out yet, we don't know for sure what the street prices will really be. Right now tower is saying $179 for the controler, and $99 for the motor.. Late April is the current target date of availablity, but their targe has come and gone several times previously...

There are also many ohter brushless systems out there... ones that mostly have origins in Europe. There are some in the US who've been using these other systems and most report good things. Generaly they are more pricey then the Novak system, and you may have to fiddle with it a bit more... but I have not actualy experiance and haven't even read much about the other systems that are available. My personal feeling is tht if they were all that good, they'd likely have made more headway into the US market... but then maybe we just don't know what we are missing...


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## starluckrc (Feb 18, 2005)

Price and service is why they don't have more headway here. Perfomance is worlds apart. There are some well made US brushless motors, but the controller department is still lacking.......but that will be changing soon.


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## Craps (Mar 22, 2005)

The Schulze U-Force 75 ESC with the Plettenberg Extreme motor is the finest equipment money can buy for a 1/10th scale 2wd stadium truck. Jamie has the combo for $450.

You on-road guys would like the Plettenberg Shadow that is a little hotter motor than the Extreme that has more torque.


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## DynoMoHum (Sep 25, 2001)

So, who out there besides Novak and LRP(soon) have a brushless controler that will operate on 4.8 volts or so? I'm a dedicated 4 cell carpet oval racer, and we need controlers that operate on 4.8 volts or slightly less, yet handle at least 80 amps. It seems most 'high performance' brushless controlers out there are geared for at least 6 cells, but there are still alot of racers in the USA that are runing just 4 cells and having loads of fun and not wanting to run any higher voltage.


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## starluckrc (Feb 18, 2005)

Perhaps the Castle Creations Mamba 25 coupled with a 400 sized brushless will work well for 4 cell carpet oval. I think some of the German controllers can be had with a 3.6V cutoff as well. I'll have to look into it.


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## DynoMoHum (Sep 25, 2001)

I'd asked CC if the Mamba-25 could potentialy be used in a 12th scale car... they didn't seem too optimistic. But then I suspect with a mild motor and a small pinion it might be OK... I may try it this summer for kicks... I know that the mamba-25 system I have is too powerfull for any reall good in a M18... so I suspect that maybe it could push a 12th scale pan car around with a small pinion...

Typicaly we are averaging over 30 amps in our 10th 4 cell oval racing... this with a Novak 4300 brushless system or say a 19 turn brushed motor. So... I don't think the Mamba will quite handle it that kind of stress... The Novak 5800 system surely pulls more then 35 amps average when they are used in this type of racing.... If any brushless were ever to be truely competitive in a 4 cell oval open modified class it would have to handle at least 45 amps continious I think... Mod 4 cell oval guys regularly dump 3300mAh packs in 4 minutes with brushed 10 to 6 turn motors, that's a average of 49 amps. With 3800mAh NiMH packs they'd dump those too I'm sure, which would be up to 57 amps continious... Hard to imagine you'd ever need more then 60 amps though... but that's just a educated guess.


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## rcavenger (Aug 28, 2002)

dyno,

well, i do know that i can dump a 3300 non deadshorted pack (appr. 420 @ 30 amps) w/ a 4300 system in 5 min, racing 4 cell on carpet oval. basically, from what i am seeing, the 4300 will pull about any gear in a well setup pan car, to the point the battery dumps. what have you noticed?


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## DynoMoHum (Sep 25, 2001)

I've noticed that you can indeed put just about any gear on... however we have sort of figureout out that a rollout of 2.460" is about the maxiumum that does any good... that is you do start to slow down when you go any higher then that... I personaly have never dumped in a 4 celll 4 minute oval race yet... I typicaly come back with at least 90 seconds left at 30 amp discharge on my year old GP3300s. Newer GP3300s tend to have more run time then the older ones, so if I ran newer cells I'd have even more left... 

Incedently this is almost the same run time as I'd have left if I ran 19 turn brushed... but with those my lap times would be slower, perticularly at the end of the run.

We have also determined that a really good 19 turn setup will match a 5800 SS in overall number of laps in a 4 minute oval race. Right now, the fastest guys at our track are running within one lap of the 5800s with 4300 motors. That is, the track record for 5800/19T is like 64 laps, and the 4300 class is running like 63 laps... Personaly... I think the guys with 5800s could probably still squeek out some more, but at this point they haven't and most of them seem to prefer 4300s because tires last a little longer then they do when they run 5800 motors. 

No one I know of has dumped in a 4 minute race with either of the current Novak brushless systems.


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## rickk5 (Jan 20, 2003)

Hey Hank, My Question To You Is If I Want To Race Brushless Which Do Most Tracks Accept The 4300 Setup Or The 5800 Setup And Can You Interchange Between The Two Or Will The Esc Be Able To Run Either A 4300 Or A 5800 Motor Or Will I Have To Have Two Complete Systems????
Thanks
Rickk5


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## hankster (Jan 1, 1998)

Well... you would have to check with your local tracks. I have seen where some run the 4300 and others run the 5800. You can use either motor with the Novak SS(+) ESC.


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## starluckrc (Feb 18, 2005)

Besides bearings wearing out, the sensored motors also seem suseptable to having the sensors damaged in the rough rc environment. That's one of the reasons most companies went away from that technology and developed better sensorless controllers to compensate.


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## pmsimkins (Nov 4, 2004)

Dynomohum,

How long is your track there in Michigan? We have been rolling out in the neighborhood 2.80 on a 175' to 185' flat ovals around here. This seems to be the fastest. I run a 2.30 ish rollout on a smaller 125' track in the area as well. If the motor and controller aren't coming off the track smokin' hot then you aren't geared high enough. At least that is what I am finding.


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## Echeconnee (Nov 14, 1998)

all this heat must be a carpet thing, we run on a 305' concrete oval with very little banking and the 5800 set in the stock mode will run right with the 19t cars and the motor might get lukewarm with a 70 deg outside ambient temperature.

www.echeconneesuperspeedway.tk


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## DynoMoHum (Sep 25, 2001)

I think someone said our track was like 165'.

Funny thing... our 4300 class is running within 2 laps of the 5800 class(when people run 5800). It seems that maybe people never really quite got all there is out of the 5800s at our track, because it would really seem like they should be a little more gap between the two classes. 

I suspect that in 5800, maybe people wouldn't need or want to gear up as far as they tend to with the 4300. With 4300, it seems that in 4 cell carpet racing, it's like you can use ever single watt of power you can get, yet with 5800 you don't have to go looking for more power. Most everyone at our track actualy has both the 4300 and 5800 motors, so many people have run both around here. Most people decided that the extra tire ware of running the 5800s was not worth the amall amount of speed differance we were seeing between the two, so our biggest group of racers tended to be 4300. There are still those who really like more power and speed, and well I don't think the higher power brushless will go unused next season.


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## rowdyrj (Jul 23, 2003)

Echeconnee said:


> all this heat must be a carpet thing, we run on a 305' concrete oval with very little banking and the 5800 set in the stock mode will run right with the 19t cars and the motor might get lukewarm with a 70 deg outside ambient temperature.
> 
> www.echeconneesuperspeedway.tk



Raced in Daytona at the Speedway Spectacular with foam tires and the motor got a little hot around 100 deg. but car set the pole during the hottest part of the day and the motor did not get that much hottor even after throwing more gear to it. When we race with Cliff at echeconneesuperspeedway the motor is supper cool. Keep the bearings lube and don't set the gear mech to tight the motor will be fine.


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## Echeconnee (Nov 14, 1998)

I really don't think there is much difference between the 58 and the 43 in 4 cell but when you step up to 6 cell the difference very noticable


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## pmsimkins (Nov 4, 2004)

rowdyrj,

Flat carpet racing and large concrete, asphalt racing are very different. The motors absolutely do get very hot in flat carpet racing and believe me it has nothing to do with gear mesh or lube.


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## Echeconnee (Nov 14, 1998)

The few times I have run on carpet, I found that no matter how "free" the car was, it still felt bound up to me.


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## rowdyrj (Jul 23, 2003)

pmsimkins said:


> rowdyrj,
> 
> Flat carpet racing and large concrete, asphalt racing are very different. The motors absolutely do get very hot in flat carpet racing and believe me it has nothing to do with gear mesh or lube.


Every little detail comes into play when you are racing on carpet with foam tires. If gear mesh is to tight it bends the motor up a little if the car suspension is to tight it makes the motor work harder. It's not one thing but a lot of little things that adds heat to the motor makes the battery heat and there goes first place finish.


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## Jamie Hanson (Dec 3, 2002)

I have made my brushless system shut down three weeks in a row. Once gearing at 2.47 and once at 2.86. motor comes off at 130 and the speedo at 110. It is still shutting off. I can assure you my car is fairly free. Any ideas? Does anyone know how to kill the themal shutoff?


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## Bob Wright (Sep 25, 2001)

A couple of guys I've raced with also had this problem no matter where they geared the speedo sut down.They both sent them back for new systems.

I'm don't have ant facts to really back this up but I think the protection circuitry may be getting weak from constant wide open thottle.Just MHO.


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## kevinm (Jan 16, 2002)

Jamie Hanson said:


> I have made my brushless system shut down three weeks in a row. Once gearing at 2.47 and once at 2.86. motor comes off at 130 and the speedo at 110. It is still shutting off. I can assure you my car is fairly free. Any ideas? Does anyone know how to kill the themal shutoff?


Jamie - According to Novak, the shutoff for newer units should be around 200 degrees for both the motor & ESC (older models had the motor shutoff at 170). Is the blue LED blinking when it stops? The 5800 system I had last summer started doing the same thing. I sent it in and got a replacement that hasn't ever shut down.


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## Jamie Hanson (Dec 3, 2002)

Kevin,
As far as I know I have the new one. I guess I could be wrong. I bought mine at the same time everyone else did. Who knows though. It was fine the first couple weeks of racing then shutdown one time. Now it does it everytime. I might have to call Novak and see what they think.


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## DynoMoHum (Sep 25, 2001)

I can't find any refferances to how people have been disabling it. I did find the ROAR description of the connectors...

(old document) pin #5- blue wire temp control, 10 k Thermistor referenced to ground potential...

I'm not up on the operation of Thermistors... perhaps someone else here is... but it would seem that you could take that blue wire and make it think that it was connected to a thermistor that was at a constant 70 degrees F and your controler would never shutdown due to the motor overheating, since it would never know the motors temp...

This wouldn't do anything to stop the controler shuting down due to it's own internal temp...

Perhaps kevin or someone could tell us how to simulate a cool 10K thermistor.


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## patcollins (Sep 29, 2001)

A termistor changes resistance as its temperature changes. You only have to take a resistor with the value of the temperature you want to simulate and bypass the termistor and use that.


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## DynoMoHum (Sep 25, 2001)

So, would that be a resistor of 10K ohms in the case of a 10K Thermistor? or somehting else? 

I supose it would be easy enough to measure the resistance of the thermistor on the motor at room temp, and then just use that size resistor... Presumably you'd measure from that pin 5 to ground(what ever pin ground is...) Does this sound correct?

Now if you do this, you'd risk melting down your Motor... but then on the other hand... many people I'm sure are willing to risk it to avoid shutting down...

What really would be nice is if you could adjust the shutdown temp yourself and leave the thermostor in place... (at least if your were a advanced user who had a clue as to what the risks are)...


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## DynoMoHum (Sep 25, 2001)

Come to think of it... maybe the first thing to try would be to simply disconnect the blue wire... If the system will run like that, it might be all that's nessasary to overide/eliminate the thermistor and thermal shutdown related to the motor side of things...


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## patcollins (Sep 29, 2001)

10k ohms is the nominal value of the thermistor, so yea thats what I would try. 

When I calibrate systems with thermistors in them I use a decade box dial in a resistance that cooresponds to a temperature.


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## patcollins (Sep 29, 2001)

As the temperature of a thermistor goes up the resistance decreases. You could stick a resistor inline with the that wire and that would raise your temp cutoff.


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