# Big Block pancake Arm



## SouthLyonBen (Mar 14, 2012)

I was tearing apart an old broken HO Life Like train I had in a box looking for parts to use in a US-1 re-power I'm contemplating and looky what was inside the one set of remaining drive wheels. It's too thick to fit in a normal pancake chassis without mods but holding the top plate in place on A TJ I got the arm to spin when I put power too it. Possibly this train was an Aurora product being sold under license at one point because the motor magnets are exactly the same size as Thunderjet/AFX size. Haven't exactly figured out what to do with it yet, and that big a$$ gear is too big for my puller.


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## SouthLyonBen (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm new to Photobucket, I screwed that up but here's a "not too big, not too small pic"


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## kiwidave (Jul 20, 2009)

That is a monster looking arm!! Can you ohm the arm??


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## SouthLyonBen (Mar 14, 2012)

No, I don't have a meter at my disposal currently. I suspect it's more just "monster torque" than speed since it came out of a train.


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## joegri (Feb 13, 2008)

big n fat just how i likem. man that thing is wild lookin thanx for post pics of fat chix/arms!! better back away from that thing could bite ya!


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## Boosted-Z71 (Nov 26, 2007)

Are my eyes playing tricks on me or is that the infamous Quintalam, 1 better than the Quadralam. That is a monster.

Gotta go, looking for my train stuff, and have an idea on how to get this stuffed into a pancake chassis, I need to get it ready for the next drag build off. That is Big Block power.

Boosted


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## JordanZ870 (Nov 25, 2004)

Al Galinko BUILDS wicked fat arms and
machines top plates to match.
Have a look. Might be apples to oranges
but this is what your find reminds me of!

http://agg.fsmra.com/prodlist.html

Have a look at the *“XL 5" “Pro Drag” Armature *


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## Ralphthe3rd (Feb 24, 2011)

Oh Man, that Loco Arm is just Wicked Cool ! :thumbsup: I gotta find me one for my Pancake Arm collection. So you say it came from a Vintage Lifelike HO locomotive ? Was it from a Diesel for Steam Loco ? Do you think it was made in the 70's or 80's ??


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## SouthLyonBen (Mar 14, 2012)

Boosted-Z71 said:


> Are my eyes playing tricks on me or is that the infamous Quintalam, 1 better than the Quadralam.


How Spinal Tap-ish "1 better, goes to 11" I was thinking of a double decker ish gear plate for a thunderjet. I do wonder if MR G maybe uses these as a basis for the xl 5. NOW bad news is 1) that big brass gear is proving really hard to get off 2) The shaft seems to be 1.5mm. It came out of this sort Life Like train see the tall black thing in the back? the wires lead to a motor brush cup gearbox deal. I think it's a Life Like train from the early 80s mine was a Sante Fe just like this one, all I know. I take no resposibility for people going to train shows ripping the top off of Life Like trains looking inside

http://www.ebay.com/itm/180951946035?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649#ht_500wt_969


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## Ralphthe3rd (Feb 24, 2011)

Awesome info !...and thanks for the eBay Link.....now i know (4 sure) what to look for. And I never knew that those Life-Like Diesels were actually Pancake Powered - SWEET !


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## Ralphthe3rd (Feb 24, 2011)

As found/seen in the Loco Gearbox/Motor Housing....








Cool Stuff :thumbsup:


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## tjetsgrig (Nov 1, 2009)

*Done it already!*

I've got a custom 6 laminate blank I made sitting on my bench waiting to be loaded into my next personal build! I've built the 5 laminate motors before in my competition Outlaw Tjets. Actually pulled a 0.299 et @ 80.01 mph! Yes.......with a Tjet!! I'll make that sucker work in a chassis!!


Jim Sgrig


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## JordanZ870 (Nov 25, 2004)

tjetsgrig said:


> I've got a custom 6 laminate blank I made sitting on my bench waiting to be loaded into my next personal build! I've built the 5 laminate motors before in my competition Outlaw Tjets. Actually pulled a 0.299 et @ 80.01 mph! Yes.......with a Tjet!! I'll make that sucker work in a chassis!!
> 
> 
> Jim Sgrig


Wont be much of a chassis left after final fitting?


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## SouthLyonBen (Mar 14, 2012)

Some quick and bad way too big pics of it actually sitting in a chassis


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## Ralphthe3rd (Feb 24, 2011)

Too Cool- Scrig and Southlyonben ! :thumbsup:
And guess what, I went into the Flea Market/antique Mall where I work, and what do you think i Found there!? Yep, I found the exact same Life-Like Sante Fe Diesel Loco selling for $5 as-is... so i just Had to buy it....and I did pop the body off the chassis before I bought it just to make sure it had the same motor, and it does. I'll be disassembling it tomorrow when I get the chance. 
But FYI, I have no plans to ever convert for use in a slot, i just wanted it for my Arm collection. So you guys really think that Aurora made these motors for Life-Like ???


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## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

prolly the same manufacturer. I am not sure Aurora ever had a winding facility, but used existing, established businesses for arms
Faller and maybe Bauer had the same type arms too.


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## slotcarman12078 (Oct 3, 2008)

I'm pretty sure Aurora used multiple vendors to keep up with demand during the T jet's heyday. Vibes according to this wiki totaled 1.5 million produced, and then the T Jet came about. By the early 70's, production numbers totaled tens of millions!!! 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slot_car

To give you an idea... You'll need over 2700 armatures a day to make 1 million T Jets a year.. That's a lot of winding!! No doubt one of those manufacturers made other pancake arms for other applications, the Lifelike diesel being one of them.


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## Boosted-Z71 (Nov 26, 2007)

slotcarman12078 said:


> To give you an idea... You'll need over 2700 armatures a day to make 1 million T Jets a year.. That's a lot of winding!!.


I am sure Tjetsgrig could wind that many easily, Right Jim.

Never dreamed they made a million of these T-jets, that means I have a lot more collecting to do.

Great Info

Boosted


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## slotcarman12078 (Oct 3, 2008)

Reread that... If that source is correct, we're looking at 10s of millions of T Jets!!! Bare minimum we're looking at 20 million + T jets produced..


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## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

I wanna know where the train cars full of original t-jet chassis are parked! there is no way all those chassis have been distributed, is there?


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## Boosted-Z71 (Nov 26, 2007)

Al I dont know where the full train carloads are parked at, but we can make a deal, if we find one we split it.

Amazing numbers.

Boosted


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## Omega (Jan 14, 2000)

You all know that as you rip apart the trains you need to take pictures and leak them over to the train section to see how many train guys to can make faint. 


Hey you got train on my slot car, no you got slot car on my train.


Dave


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## SouthLyonBen (Mar 14, 2012)

Ralphthe3rd said:


> Too Cool- Scrig and Southlyonben ! :thumbsup:
> And guess what, I went into the Flea Market/antique Mall where I work, and what do you think i Found there!? Yep, I found the exact same Life-Like Sante Fe Diesel Loco selling for $5 as-is... so i just Had to buy it....and I did pop the body off the chassis before I bought it just to make sure it had the same motor, and it does. I'll be disassembling it tomorrow when I get the chance.
> But FYI, I have no plans to ever convert for use in a slot, i just wanted it for my Arm collection. So you guys really think that Aurora made these motors for Life-Like ???


Yeah I am on the fence on if I'll actually use it in a car, I was actually tearing apart the train because it was missing enough parts it was unusable and I have this idea in my head for a pulling truck so I was looking for other sources of drivetrain parts. NOW as far as Aurora making these for Life Like, if you look at these page http://tycotrain.tripod.com/pemcorailwaysystem/id33.html 
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r132/tonycook1966/Pemco/PEMCO_F40PH_Page_2.jpg (to service your motor!) it looks like maybe this Pemco made these trains for both Life Like and some were sold as Auroras, if you snoop around A bit you'll see the exact loco. It does seem like a coincidence that the mags are actually identical to a set out of an AFX chassis I have. Which also lends credence to the Alpink thought of "some supplier made 'em for everybody" but I would hypothesise even A supplier to Aurora would need the big A's blessing to use the configuration in other applications to avoid like some other company coming out with clones of Aurora cars with the same motor


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## Ralphthe3rd (Feb 24, 2011)

My Turn to RIP apart a Diesel and Steal the Arm :

As she rolls in, already minus the EMD F9 Diesel Body....









Below, I've just removed the Power Truck from the chassis...









Below,I've just yanked the Arm from the motor/Gearbox casing, I didn't feel the need to show the split cases as it was shown earlier. BTW- there is "5" laminates in the stack.









Just hauled the the Big Block Arm back to the shop...









The Guys are discussing what to do next...note the odd looking Com face, in what looks like it might be stainless steel ? Oh yeah, I ohm checked this arm, at approximately 23ohm's










Everyone seems to be wondering what the Hell they're gonna DO with this Big block ?!


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## SouthLyonBen (Mar 14, 2012)

You rule Ralph! I had to show my wife, you trumped me on presentation :thumbsup: I'm debating on putting mine in a T-jet truck (if I ever get that stupid giant gear off) still not sure what to do about the pinion since the shaft is small. I'm sure something can be figured out, not sure if there is a 14 toother for an inline car (guessing no, never looked)


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## Ralphthe3rd (Feb 24, 2011)

*Spec's ~n~ Stuff*

Oh Ben, you're da man, for originally findin' this Big Block :thumbsup:
Ok, here's some points of interest from your discovery.
#1) The Loco motor's ceramic magnets will indeed drop right into a T-Jet(or Non MT A/FX) chassis, BUT, they are much too loose and should be shimmed inward to keep them from rattling about if used in a car chassis. But on the plus side, I actually found these magnets to be quite strong, maybe as strong at Super II's ?
#2) As Ben noted,the central shaft is a smaller diameter than the Aurora shaft. This loco shaft mic's out at .059 dia., while an Aurora shaft measures .063 dia.
#3)About the comm brushes, they appear to have a high silver content, and (just cuz I was in a measuring mood), their diameter mic's at .110(is that closer to Slim line?), and mine were .0885 thick.
#4)This Arm was built super heavy duty and looks to be made Better than a standard Aurora arm. The Arm shaft rode on Spherical brass bushing/bearings in the black plastic gearbox/motor housing, and that was a nice touch. The comm face is silver colored, and although it could just be silver plated or pure silver, I'm guessing it's either stainless steel or plain steel? But it's hard to tell if a magnet is attracted to the comm face, or is pulling toward the stacks or the central shaft ? But there is some pull around there.
#5) This Arm uses a "5" plate/stack laminate. And when measured for ohm's(with my Crappy Harbor Fright) Multi-Meter, I got approx 23ohms from each of the three poles, and every one measured exactly the same.


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## cwbam (Feb 8, 2010)

Great Photos & Details!!!!

Penta Lam?


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## tjetsgrig (Nov 1, 2009)

That is based on the Faller design, the commutator is a dead giveaway. I've got a crapload of them.........
Measure the shaft diameter, it should be smaller then the Aurora.
Jim Sgrig


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## SouthLyonBen (Mar 14, 2012)

tjetsgrig said:


> That is based on the Faller design, the commutator is a dead giveaway. I've got a crapload of them.........
> Measure the shaft diameter, it should be smaller then the Aurora.
> Jim Sgrig


It is smaller, is there a 14 tooth pinion easily found that fits A faller arm and is the same gear pitch as Aurora? I didn't really pay close attention to the magnet fit in A car chassis other than "they do" I was more focused on the arm.


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## Ralphthe3rd (Feb 24, 2011)

*Doh !*

Update : For aesthetic reasons, I wanted to remove that Big Brass gear, so the Arm would display better along side my normal Aurora Armatures. Ok, I got good news, and bad news. The good news is, I was able to safely remove the gear using a friends gear puller- after I just cut down the long protruding shaft a little. Now for the bad news, while i was handling the arm, I accidentally musta gave it a slight twist, and Duh ! Since the commutator plate/disc is NOT secured with locking tabs as are the Aurora Arms, the comm plate/disc rotated and sheared off all the windings ! !$%^@$&!!! *
....on a positive note, it still displays nice 
So a word of advice, don't man handle these arms...coz the only thing holding the comm plate/disc in place, is just a little friction on the shaft itself


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## gomanvongo (Jun 12, 2010)

*lionel's got 'em too!*

I had a junked lionel engine here, so i decided to take a look inside.

Again- a pancake motor, but these magnets seem to fit really well in a t jet chassis. Similar 5 stack set-up (quintalam? pentalam?) but different comm plate (more brassy like the aurora stuff - not silver). I'll get some pics tonight, and do some closer inspection/figgerin'.

john


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## XracerHO (Feb 6, 2008)

Very interesting idea SouthLB & great shop story presentation Ralph3! This is why HT is so great so much creativity! ..RL


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## SouthLyonBen (Mar 14, 2012)

Ralphthe3rd said:


> Update : For aesthetic reasons, I wanted to remove that Big Brass gear, so the Arm would display better along side my normal Aurora Armatures. Ok, I got good news, and bad news. The good news is, I was able to safely remove the gear using a friends gear puller- after I just cut down the long protruding shaft a little. Now for the bad news, while i was handling the arm, I accidentally musta gave it a slight twist, and Duh ! Since the commutator plate/disc is NOT secured with locking tabs as are the Aurora Arms, the comm plate/disc rotated and sheared off all the windings ! !$%^@$&!!! *
> ....on a positive note, it still displays nice
> So a word of advice, don't man handle these arms...coz the only thing holding the comm plate/disc in place, is just a little friction on the shaft itself


The only puller I have is an RTHO one meant for Pinion and Cluster gears on Auroras and the Diameter of this gear is what's been the obstacle, I guess I should have elaborated that I meant "I can't get the gear off and not ruin other stuff"  I haven't had real time to mess with it though as me and the missus have been busy. And a question for Gomanvongo: Was it a Lionel HO or a Lionel 027 that had the arm in question? I still have my 027s from when I was a kid, I could imagine I'd kick myself later for ripping them apart.


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## gomanvongo (Jun 12, 2010)

SouthLyonBen, it was a ho locomotive. I can't find the camera (my lovely wife had it last - who knows where it'll turn up) but when I do I'll post some pics. The setup looked much like the one in pics posted by you and Ralph, but it's slightly different in physical makeup. the magnets fit nicely into a tjet, although the arm's shaft may be a tiny bit smaller (not sure - no micrometer, and poor eyesight!). As I said, the plate is brass, although it is more dissimilar to the aurora arm than I'd originally thought. it does fit nicely in between the mags in a chassis though!

thanks for inspiring this - it seems to have created some neat thoughts for lots of folks!

john


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## SouthLyonBen (Mar 14, 2012)

I got the big gear off and the arm is still in working order, but without a suitable pinion gear I'm kinda stumped. You could just try pushing a pinion gear on as sort of "******* gauges" even a fresh never mounted pinion intended for an Aurora will just drop right on. Wonder if the Lionel HO were made by the same supplier as the Life Like


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## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

Sgrig said " That is based on the Faller design, the commutator is a dead giveaway. "
he mentioned a European manufacturer that likely uses the same shaft diameter.
if you can find some of the steel 14 tooth gears they will have the diameter hole you desire.


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## SouthLyonBen (Mar 14, 2012)

alpink said:


> if you can find some of the steel 14 tooth gears they will have the diameter hole you desire.


Right, but that's proven easier said than done for me thus far. Ranch Designs has a 12 tooth for A 1.5mm shaft but I'm thinking it's still gonna be "close but no cigar" Oh well no rush


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## slotcarman12078 (Oct 3, 2008)

One other option is to sleeve the shaft. There are makers of brass tube in both US and metric sizes. Sleeving the arm shaft might be an option, not only for the gear, but for the journal too. Another possibility is swapping the shaft from a T jet/AFX into that arm... Just rattling ideas off the top of my head...


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## Ralphthe3rd (Feb 24, 2011)

Like I noted earlier, in my Specs~n~Stuff post, the loco shaft mic's out at .059 dia., while an Aurora shaft measures .063 dia. I don't think a sleeve is made thin enough to make up the Miniscule dif.
Have you thought about just soldering on the gear ? You can first tin the inside hole of the pinion gear, and that might close up the gap, then drop or push it over the shaft, and then just a touch more solder should do. BTW- I have done this to a few of my used pinion gears to take up the slop and make then totally secure.


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## Ralphthe3rd (Feb 24, 2011)

Oh, I almost forgot. I took the magnets from the loco, and dropped them into a t-jet chassis, and I just shimmed them with some business card stock, and then they fit nice and snug. I then took the car for a test ride, and it pulled nice and strong, even stronger than with the original green/orange mags I had previously in the chassis.


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## SouthLyonBen (Mar 14, 2012)

I had thought about the soldering idea but I was afraid that it would be wobbly because of the slop, but then again it is just a slot car and the original Aurora stuff was hardly produced to NASA specs  I'll have to pick a donor for the magnets in the time being


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## Ralphthe3rd (Feb 24, 2011)

SouthLyonBen said:


> I had thought about the soldering idea but I was afraid that it would be wobbly because of the slop, but then again it is just a slot car and the original Aurora stuff was hardly produced to NASA specs  I'll have to pick a donor for the magnets in the time being


 LOL....ummmm...actually, Aurora specs might have been closer to NASA specs, compared to Auto World Specs, which IMO are closer to Caveman Specs (no disrespect 'Doba 
Seriously...try using flux in the pinion hole and on the outside of the shaft and tin them first, it might totally close up the gap and make it a friction fit, and then just a touch of solder on top of the gear.


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## Jisp (Oct 19, 2008)

Regarding the shaft size difference, might be worth peening the gear (yes, it's not the correct term but let's not fluff around with semantics).

Place a small steel ball bearing over the gear hole and give a few taps with a hammer. Repeat on opposite side. With any luck it should create a nice friction fit. Finish it up with solder.

Ralph, beautiful photos mate, thank you. The arm looks brand new....... I have to get one of these little suckers!

Cheers,
Michael. :thumbsup:


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## SouthLyonBen (Mar 14, 2012)

Jisp said:


> Regarding the shaft size difference, might be worth peening the gear (yes, it's not the correct term but let's not fluff around with semantics).
> 
> Place a small steel ball bearing over the gear hole and give a few taps with a hammer. Repeat on opposite side. With any luck it should create a nice friction fit. Finish it up with solder.
> 
> ...


I was thinking of that too but I wasn't sure if there would be enough material to push .003-ish into the shaft hole. Funny Ralph should mention the AW/JL stuff, I ventured to "The Land Of Misfit Toys" aka A pile of chassis parts from above mention manu and worked on these this morning. This pic being the top of an X-traction gear plate and the bottom of a JL TJ gear plate filed flat








these are them joined together 








My tenative plan is that I'll attach the two and removing a bunch of material from the X-traction plate to clear the big arm with the top TJ plate acting as a brace and then the shaft down from the cluster at the rear of the TJ goes into the hole where the rivet was on the X-traction gear plate turning a 14 tooth motor pinion in the stock position of where the bottom half of the X-traction cluster gear sat. And if it totally sucks I ruined two JLs not two Auroras :thumbsup: I already know this is going to be a slow torquey odd ball but I just haven't been able to get this idea out of my head since I found this arm. I can blame the builder of the original Awesome Kong monster truck for using an Airplane engine and giving me a life-long love of oddballs :dude:


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## Ralphthe3rd (Feb 24, 2011)

WOW- Ben ! you're more clever than I am, as that's a cool idea with the stacked top plate conversion, and should provide a much stronger/tighter bearing for the long top arm shaft. :thumbsup: 
And here I just my cut my Top shaft down, but like I said earlier, my arm is kinda toast now, since I slip/rotated the comm plate disc and sheared the wires, although I could just unwrap one wind from each of the three poles and re-attach and solder. Which btw opens up another thought, since the comm plate rotates so easily now, i could either advance or retard the timing a bit to change the torque and/or power characteristics of the arm. But I'd just have to make sure I dabbed some Super Glue on the comm plate friction/joint area to make sure it's locked in place. Which btw, I think is the weakest LINK in this arm, and would make it very prone to high RPM failures, should someone think of going in that direction.


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## SouthLyonBen (Mar 14, 2012)

Haven't had time to do anything else on it today, if this arm fails I do have another Life Like Locomotive that's way more intact than the original one I tore apart but as I work this out, and have no train track set up, it's days are numbered muahhahahahah (maniacal laugh) Not sure what I'm going to do for a gear clamp yet, and the holes don't line up as straight as I'd like on the two gear plates and chassis, not sure if that's my eyes, JL tolerances, or if there's a bit of a design difference between the spacing on the Magnatraction versus the Thunderjet (they looked similar before I started) so I may end up doing this with a thunderjet.


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## plymouth71 (Dec 14, 2009)

SouthLyonBen said:


> I can blame the builder of the original Awesome Kong monster truck for using an Airplane engine and giving me a life-long love of oddballs :dude:



Maybe that would be the idea build... A Monster truck


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## SouthLyonBen (Mar 14, 2012)

plymouth71 said:


> Maybe that would be the idea build... A Monster truck


Jisp built a really cool one I saw elsewhere on the net.


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## SouthLyonBen (Mar 14, 2012)

Since work wanted me to come in EVERY day in exchange for a paycheck and throwing a birthday party for my wife I didn't get a chance to work on this again until last night, here we are. Frankenstein gear plate, chassis dug at with a screwdriver and exacto knife until the clamp fit, good times. I found a Faller guy who's going to send me some smaller pilot hole pinions, still up in the air if I'll have the patience to wait until they arrive, sorry the picture stinks.


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## bobhch (Apr 22, 2007)

Very Interesting!! Bz


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## SouthLyonBen (Mar 14, 2012)

I couldn't take it, I soldered the pinion on. I wish I had good news but it's as many predicted, this thing was kind of a waste of time I'm afraid. It runs really hot and slow. I'm not sure if I still have some binding issues or if it just wasn't meant to be. Maybe I got the arm too hot when I soldered? It seems to run ok for a few minutes if I take the driven gear out and it just runs but I dunno.


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## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

the ohms of that motor and the gearing it used in the train drive which make it a completely different animal. I got three of them and took completely apart. they are completely enclosed in the housing for the train and have much thicker brushes that are backed up by very big springs.

how did you remove the gear from the shaft?


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

I'm also a Marklin Train collector. Marklin's designers used the hell out of the pancake design, albeit vertically mounted.

Yeah....train stuff....engineered differently (pun intended). Big ohm pancake arms that are designed for realistic low-speed operation and geared for enough lug to drag an entire choo choos worth of train around the track.

Kinda apples and oranges when compared to the requirements needed to meet our slotcar expectations. 

Perhaps more suited to a monster truck build using a big tired 9 tooth or worm drive...?


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## SouthLyonBen (Mar 14, 2012)

alpink said:


> how did you remove the gear from the shaft?


Very technical process.... ....I took some wire cutters so I could get in between the big gear and the arm and hopefully not destroy anything and hit the com shaft with a brass headed hammer (to not mushroom the com shaft) I made in the machine shop of A community college 15 years ago :thumbsup: I saw a gear puller in the train section of A hobby shop that might work but it was 20 something bucks, which could probably buy you a pile of these junk trains. Regarding Mr. Hall's comments about the Marklin trains, I was reading this old book about HO Scale Model Railroading by Robert Schleicher I got 2nd hand, it was published in the late 70s and it looks as though sever "diesel" locos of the era from Tyco, Life Like, and Bachmann all used the configuration of one powered truck and one dummy with the big vertical mounted pancake motor. I'm suspecting the brush set up may be part of the problem. But anyway at least I got the thing to move, that's been something in itself :dude:


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

Second thought (s)...

Any chance of poking it into a T-jet accellerator conversion? Big magnet benefit might help. Maybe some brush cups-n-shunts?


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## SouthLyonBen (Mar 14, 2012)

Bill Hall said:


> Second thought (s)...
> 
> Any chance of poking it into a T-jet accellerator conversion? Big magnet benefit might help. Maybe some brush cups-n-shunts?


That was my first thought when I stumbled upon this thing but Xcellerator parts are a p.i.t.a. to find, This chump got stuck with one of those Quadralam arms with the gear on it thinking "How hard could it be to find that top stuff?" It ended up in this pile of AW plastic as these are cheap and plentiful so if it never worked No big loss. So I was in my lair looking at this utter failure and I noticed the train brushes are farther apart, like a .330 spread as compared to a .250 spread in the JL chassis, should this matter? I was thinking maybe I should use the case from the train and line it up with the magnet pockets and an axle from hole to hole and drill (gently by hand as it will hit the original holes) out some new holes for brush cups with the proper spacing?


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## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

the gearing in the train truck allows the arm to spin easier at high RPMs and not get lugged down easily by additional weights or grades.
try to think of it like a semi with 18 gears to go through to get to speed. that big diesel has a limited RPM/torque range and does great with in those parameters.
take that engine out of the big rig and put it in a light weight car with the standard gearing the car uses and it can never get to full speed and certainly not anytime soon
this analogy is probably going to be shot full of holes, but I learn from that. have at em
LOL


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

Only reason I brought it up was "cwbam" (dats Chuck) had a pile of that stuff flash by in our BST. I think Parts Pig now has the goods.

When you first popped the pic, my original thinking was that the train armature sorta looks like one of those "Dork-u-lam" quads from the Xcelerators. Just eyeballen' mind you, but the height seemed doable based on my experiences with the "Xcelerator guts on a T-jet Chassis" conversion. I rekon an A-dubya chassis would be fine too. 

As long as the brushes are tracking somewhat in the "approximate 3/5ths" center of the copper somewheres I think your OK. I'm thinking the wider brush spacing may help cooling.


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## SouthLyonBen (Mar 14, 2012)

alpink said:


> the gearing in the train truck allows the arm to spin easier at high RPMs and not get lugged down easily by additional weights or grades.
> try to think of it like a semi with 18 gears to go through to get to speed. that big diesel has a limited RPM/torque range and does great with in those parameters.
> take that engine out of the big rig and put it in a light weight car with the standard gearing the car uses and it can never get to full speed and certainly not anytime soon
> this analogy is probably going to be shot full of holes, but I learn from that. have at em
> LOL


Hmmmm well when I drive A semi tractor bob-tail with no trailer I can actually get by using a lot less gears, kinda like how a diesel car or pick up has the same number of gears as the gas version eras and options aside, need more holes?  Wouldn't you still think that this train arm should still have as much a$$ as say a christmas tree arm? I'm thinking maybe I need to try A thunderjet chassis with AFX tires, with the extra space underneath maybe I can get a brush arrangement closer to the original. I'll have to put some serious time aside and properly trouble-shoot the Mk1 version before I write it off. I assume the brushes have to be in orientation with the magnets and deviations from that center plane bring up issues with motor timing?


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## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

a car or pickup truck engineered for both gas and/or diesel engines is not the same as dropping a BIG RIG diesel into either of the previously mentioned.
I respect what you are saying about bobtailing, but you still have a very limited RPM range and have to change gearing according to speed. 
a car with a diesel designed for it works better because the computer is constantly adjusting fuel and air flows to optimize power.
I think i am not able to explain what I mean in terms you understand, so i think i will quit trying. 
suffice it to say, for whatever reason, that 5 lam arm isn't going to be the equivalent of a two, three or four lam designed for a t-jet. 
i do have enough parts for an Xlerator conversion and I have various strength magnets which i will test in the set up. I will give it my very best shot to make something that runs reasonably, regardless of the OHMs of this 5 lam arm.


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## slotcarman12078 (Oct 3, 2008)

Just a thought, but wouldn't the brushes spaced out wider (in the train chassis) power each leg of the arm longer than the narrower brush spacing of the T jet?


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## SouthLyonBen (Mar 14, 2012)

alpink said:


> I think i am not able to explain what I mean in terms you understand, so i think i will quit trying.


Ouch! I was just messin around, I know what you mean


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Big magnets might not be the way to go.
I'm no pancake expert,but with 5 lams,i think you'd be better off with a smaller mag field,not bigger.
Big mags will just enhance the heat and torque factors.
I think a weaker magnet might free the arm up and let it spin the 5 lams through the field easier,decreasing heat and torque,and letting the arm build some RPM,just a thought.
Heats gonna be a killer with 5 lams and a strong mag field.

Like Al says,the gearings gonna be totally whacked for that combo.

You're pretty limited on gearing choices,and i doubt you'll find tall enough gears to actually utilize the arms inherent torque.

Something llike that is gonna need Bonneville salt flat style gearing,in other words highway gears, not the tractor gears you have stock.

I thought i read somewhere years ago,about somebody swapping the driveline gears around in a pancake car,if that's do-able,that might give you more gearing options.
Big pinion and small rear gear = tall gears.

You're gonna want to basically overdrive the gearing.

Have you given any thought to trying a belt drive or silent drive set-up,and getting rid of the stock top end gears.
A belt drive conversion might be something you should consider on that combo.


Bigger tires will compensate somewhat,but you're also raising the center of gravity


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

*High rise*

Rick, 

I was just thinking that the field should actually align to the rotor. More of a spacial relationship thing than an actual magnet strength issue. Hard to tell in Bens pix, but magnetic alignment it is a core issue relative to driveablility and a fundamental design requirment.

My thought was that the Magnatraction tall boy magnets might help center the added rotor lams in the field. Additionally, I was thinking that Maggies ran arms in excess of double the ohm-age of A/FX (6). 14 er 16 ohms (arent they?) is a lot closer to 23 than 6 is. 

No reason a guy couldnt shim up the stock mags too. I'm just applying the basics of the conversion I'm familiar with because it looks close, AND trying have some vicarious fun with Ben's build.


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Bill,i think if he has a pair of weak stock mags,i'd drop them on the floor a couple times and cook them in the oven,then drop them in the chassis,lol:thumbsup:

5 lam motors are designed to develop torque,lots of it,so i think he's gonna have to free the arm up as much as he can to get it to develop any RPM.
With-out some RPM,the arms gonna run hot.
A DC motor needs RPM to stay cool,so anything he can do to free it up will help.

I'd seriously look at belt driving that sucker,and getting rid of the gears.

Opening up the chassis to air flow would also help,the more air the lams have to cut through the cooler the coils or lams will run.

SCM's idea of moving the brushes out might help along with weaker mags.
Keeps the coils engerized slightly longer to offset the weaker mag field.
Back EMF will probably be his biggest enemy with 5 lams


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## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

*big block monster arm attempt 1*

OK, have been trying the Xlerator clamp and rear gear with the monster 5 lam arm.
it runs pretty good with no load and I have yet to install an idler gear. but it looks like I will be able to use an AFX small hole gear that looks to fit properly in this arrangement.
for now, on this build, I left the huge train gear on the armature shaft and transplanted the bushings from the train engine into the t-jet chassis and the Xlerator over head gear and clamp thingy.
anyway, enough BS, have a gander. ..... 




































http://s293.photobucket.com/albums/mm46/alpink/monster armature and drag strip/

and a couple of those 5 lam arms with a larger multi lam arm that is about the same diameter and has a nearly identical commutator and OHMs at 5. shaft is way too big to try in any of these chassis, but something might be arranged using the left over train motor halves from the 5 lam monster arms ....










I'll get back to this when i have installed the idler gear in the strange arrangement above.
.
:tongue:


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

*Walking tall*

Cool Al!

Looks like it was made to order. Very nice work! 

Wondering about the giant arm gear :freak:


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## Ralphthe3rd (Feb 24, 2011)

Al, that's very clever thinking there. It'll be interesting to see how it turns out


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## SouthLyonBen (Mar 14, 2012)

Hmmm I've kinda walked away from this project for because 1) I got frustrated by the motor sounding cool till "go time" 2) I got A few old AFX chassis in the mail (I do mean the non magnatraction pancake ones) that I have been playing with, older than me and they still work! 3) Put all my US-1 stuff away for a while and built a big road course and couldn't stop running laps :thumbsup: Anyway Al's version was what I first envisioned when I stumbled on this arm but I didn't have any Xcellerator parts so I worked with what I had. All the magnet theories sound valid but there's something to the smaller magnet theory since the mags in the train are closer to the size of a thunderjet than Magnatraction size. Possibly this weekend I'll give it A thorough going over and maybe for starters try some older bottom of the box Aurora magnets and see if I do any better. I'm not sure if all my problems are electrical or just a series of too many things being slightly out of alignment do to the fact that most of this stuff started out as Auto World (you know I'm not saying anything but.....) then was cobbled together with a serious lack of precision :freak:


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## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

LOL Ben, I certainly ain't tryin to out do your build. just tryin what Bill suggested and I am a little held up on the idler gear. but I'll have something tomorrow night. got sidetracked with painting drag track and fixing kitchen outlet for neighbor. I'm sure with a little tinkering that yours will free up and run like a champ. yeah, I do have quite a lot of parts from all kinds of slot cars. even have some of those steel 14 tooth gears with the smaller diameter hole in em.


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## SouthLyonBen (Mar 14, 2012)

alpink said:


> LOL Ben, I certainly ain't tryin to out do your build. just tryin what Bill suggested and I am a little held up on the idler gear. but I'll have something tomorrow night. got sidetracked with painting drag track and fixing kitchen outlet for neighbor. I'm sure with a little tinkering that yours will free up and run like a champ. yeah, I do have quite a lot of parts from all kinds of slot cars. even have some of those steel 14 tooth gears with the smaller diameter hole in em.


I'm jealous!! Thoughts of that elusive that 14tooth has consumed way too much of my waking hours the last couple weeks. I've been thinking that maybe version 2.0 needs a piece of the train housing grafted into a chassis somehow because the train had a depression below the magnets, not flat like and aurora car. I've got a hacksaw, dremel, and a pile of Auto World chassis to throw on the altar


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

Sacrificing A-dubyas...?

Now thats a worthy endeavor! I love these scratchbuild threads with no obvious outcome. The suspense is killing me.


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## SouthLyonBen (Mar 14, 2012)

Bill Hall said:


> Sacrificing A-dubyas...?
> 
> Now thats a worthy endeavor! I love these scratchbuild threads with no obvious outcome. The suspense is killing me.


They are a good buy sometimes for tune up parts alone and the bodies I like usually end up on another companies chassis..... ANYWAY I was thinking, you fella think the slop from running the .059 armature in the .062 hole would be that much of a problem, I was thinking the hula hoop effect can't be helping anything.


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

*Hypno wheels*

Well, honestly? I dont get all wrapped up in blue printing lil toy cars. Especially 'sperimental projects for fun. After a lifetime of building stuff, clearance becomes a feel thing. 

We always presume a lot. 003 dead cold, providing that that's what the clearance actually is, + however much the other three plate bores are out of whack, anchored and possibly skewed whatever way at two points on the chassis, + or - how accurately any of the bore centers are registered, + applying the same out of whack factor for the gear centers that tie it all together....:freak:.....

I wouldnt worry about it. If you add it all up, there's quite a bit of hula-ing, flexing, wandering going on in our silly lil toys. Some of my best slot cars are sloppy old nags that are really run in and loose. 

For the most part I use my god given micrometer> my finger tips, squinting through one eye, with my tounge out the side of mouth and saying to myself, " yeah....dats about right".


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## gomanvongo (Jun 12, 2010)

Bill Hall said:


> For the most part I use my god given micrometer> my finger tips, squinting through one eye, with my tounge out the side of mouth and saying to myself, " yeah....dats about right".


Bill, you reminded me of my Dad with this one - he was an industrial arts teacher, and his favourite form of measurement wasn't metric or imperial, but rather the "T.L.A.R." system, which he would expound upon to his classes as being the most accurate form of measurement yet developed. At the end of his monolog he'd explain that it stands for "That Looks About Right".

I find myself using it all the time, and whaddya know - it works pretty darn good!

john


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## SouthLyonBen (Mar 14, 2012)

The only time I used an actual Micrometer was one time measuring the shaft to see if it was small or I had put on a faulty gear, at no time did legitimate precision enter this equation and if it did it was by accident and without my knowledge :freak:


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## Ralphthe3rd (Feb 24, 2011)

SouthLyonBen said:


> ....at no time did legitimate precision enter this equation and if it did it was by accident and without my knowledge :freak:


 That sounds about like how Auto World builds their T-Jets anyway :tongue:


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## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

*amateur photos for your pleasure*

got my gear "plate" worked out.
need to understand that I left the giant drive gear on the armature shaft from the train set up. it is a 21 tooth brass gear. 
using a plastic idler gear from an AFX with the small hole, I resized the hole to fit the pin for the Xlerator idler and moved it back some from it's original position. it is a 24 tooth idler plastic gear.
this caused me to use the Xlerator cluster gear upside down so that the 24 tooth idler gear is now interfacing the 9 tooth portion of the one piece cluster gear.
this is a little noisy running, but still getting to a decent RPM spin on a used 9 volts battery.
this leaves the pinion being a 14 tooth and meshing well with and AFX crown that has been polished on the shoulder with Crocus to reduce friction and allow a little breathing room for the gear mesh. 
using an .063 drill blank axle treated with green 640 sleeve retainer Locktite to help keep the gear from slipping on the non-splined shaft this arrangement spins pretty well also and actually quieted the rest of the gear train somewhat.
I have used JB Weld in places that I would rather not solder and I am hoping it lives up to it's legend.
tomorrow, pressing on the wheels, assembling the front axle and wheels, gluing a guide pin in place, fitting the rest of the electrics and tuning them. then Sunday testing at Hank's place on his Max Track to see how this contraption runs on 18 volts.
while not strict precision, i have tried to keep rotating parts on the same plane and make everything fit nicely without a lot of slop.
pics














































http://s293.photobucket.com/albums/mm46/alpink/monster armature and drag strip/

using original Magnatraction magnets to help space the the gear assembly properly and also center the magnetic field on the laminations seems like a good fit so far. 
the brass bushing engineered into the bottom of the chassis made the brush holes squash a little so I used a tapered reaming tool to customize the brushes to the new contour of the holes. 
this might not even ever reach the speed of a stock t-jet, but it will be interesting to see what it can do.

ideas, concerns, suggestions, criticisms and comments all welcome.
al :tongue:


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## Ralphthe3rd (Feb 24, 2011)

Al, whether it gets up to speed or not, it's pretty cool engineering you got there :thumbsup:


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Looks good Al.

Al are the arms neutral timed.

If it's do-able,i wonder if cranking a bunch of advance into the arm wouldn't help it RPM a little better.
On that monster i wonder if throwing 20 or more degrees of timing advance at it might help widen it's narrow RPM band slightly


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## vaBcHRog (Feb 19, 2003)

If it doeen't get good top in it could be used as a track towe truck, water tanker, or track cleaner. No matter what it is really cool

Roger Corrie


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## rholmesr (Oct 8, 2010)

*Cool!*

Wow -- The arm will need to be super torquey to drive the high gear ratio!

In a standard 9T t-jet the arm spins 2.87 times to turn the rear axle once.
In a 14T AFX or tuffy, the arm spins 1.85 times to turn the rear axle once.

IIRC the rear cluster on the XLerator is really a 15/9. Assuming that, In your setup the arm spins 0.43 times to turn the rear axle once, or in other words, it's geared about 6.67 times higher than a stock t-jet and about 4.3 times higher than a tuffy.

I like the engineering you've done to get this to fit together. Can't wait to hear how well it works. This car might be a real rocket but maybe needs a 100 foot straightaway to come to speed.

Amp draw may exceed what you can easily get out of normal pickup shoe setup. And the lights might dim when you punch it!


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## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

*continued torture with camera!*

update with maybe a little better pics.
still haven't run it.

http://minus.com/l1cFrUuGtyp3w
http://i.minus.com/i1cFrUuGtyp3w.JPG









http://minus.com/lbq9SNu5ncTdOd
http://i.minus.com/ibq9SNu5ncTdOd.JPG









http://minus.com/lQ5QAL2cUHvRH
http://i.minus.com/iQ5QAL2cUHvRH.JPG









http://minus.com/lbyHUpvt2aZHaW
http://i.minus.com/ibyHUpvt2aZHaW.JPG









http://s293.photobucket.com/albums/mm46/alpink/monster armature and drag strip/

photobucket must be down so I am trying minus.com.
hope this works.

:wave:

hope photobucket is up soon, I cannot figure this minus thing out.


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## slotcarman12078 (Oct 3, 2008)

I too am having issues with PB... Minus works though! :thumbsup: 

That chassis looks mean as hell!! I'm anxious to see how it performs!! Might make a good HO stump puller!! :lol:


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## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

the arms are neutral timed. I'll consider whether to break the wires and re-solder if I try another one. surely I will change the gear on the shaft if I build another.

the cluster gear on the Xlerator is 9/14, embedded it in clay to be able to more certainly count the teeth.
anyone with a 9/15 .... I would be very interested in obtaining it.

the ohms on these arms is in the 20-23 range and if I want a hot 5 lam, I know who to hire to wind one.
this was an experiment to try to adapt the train arm into a pancake chassis.
I had the same idea as Bill and just took the time to try it.
I admire SothLyonBen for his innovation "outside the box" and his feedback on what occurred with his build. likely mine will just sit and hum or let the smoke out. 
like I said this was a fool around and I was in no way trying to upstage or "one up" anyone with my attempt.
being that I have the materials and the time, I thought I would give it the old college try and see what happens.
more news after test trials Sunday if Hank is available.


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## SouthLyonBen (Mar 14, 2012)

alpink said:


> the ohms on these arms is in the 20-23 range and if I want a hot 5 lam, I know who to hire to wind one.
> this was an experiment to try to adapt the train arm into a pancake chassis.


EXACTLY!! I got a pm on another board saying "it's just gonna be slow...." it's like how many times am i going to build the same "mean green arm in a thunderjet chassis" I think I may still be having drag issues with mine, not sure, I messed around with it for like 20 minutes on Thursday, if only it could just talk to me and tell me what's wrong. Now I know how a veterinarian feels. Yours may run just like a train, slow to get going and hard to stop


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## rholmesr (Oct 8, 2010)

*xlerator combo gears*



alpink said:


> the cluster gear on the Xlerator is 9/14, embedded it in clay to be able to more certainly count the teeth.
> anyone with a 9/15 .... I would be very interested in obtaining it.


You had me doubting myself. 

I looked at a couple of mine and they are 15T/9T. I counted them multiple times and finally to make extra sure I took a photo of the high side and numbered the teeth.

Ron.


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## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

*quite right*



rholmesr said:


> You had me doubting myself.
> 
> I looked at a couple of mine and they are 15T/9T. I counted them multiple times and finally to make extra sure I took a photo of the high side and numbered the teeth.
> 
> Ron.


Ron, my apologies, you are absolutely right.
I did the clay thing again I concur, 15 teeth.
I don't know how I could have miscounted so many times. thank you for your diligence and evidence to the contrary of my statement.

we shall see if my buddies Max has long enough straights to get this thing to speed. I used .338 rear tires to allow the arm to spin up some. 
and I do understand your math and explanation.
so far it runs really free on a beat 9 volt battery, but we shall see what it does under load. thanx again for your inputs and advice. al. :hat:


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## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

OK, report on actual running this contraption.
I can confirm that it runs hot, very, very hot, 125+ degrees Fahrenheit.
we were surprised that it achieved top speed about equal to a t-jet with same size wheels and weighted front axle on a 13 foot straight away.
being that the center of gravity is much higher it didn't handle well in corners and had to be driven much slower.
despite the great heat being generated by the armature it didn't fall off speed wise during extended runs.
a few were astounded that it moved at all.
I can see no reason to replicate this build although I can see room for improvement, mainly in gearing. 
I destroyed one of the other arms like this when removing the top gear by breaking a few strands of wire and in the process of de-winding, losing the one end, so re-soldering the wires is not an option. I then pushed the shaft out and removed the comm plate and all the parts will be given to Sgrig for evaluation and what ever he decides to do with them.
the third arm that I have will be stored for hysterical (historical?) reasons.
I certainly had fun with this and I am glad it was introduced.
thanx for reading and having fun with me and if anyone else embarks on trying to use this arm, I will certainly encourage their attempts.


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## Ralphthe3rd (Feb 24, 2011)

Al, thanks for the follow up and conclusion to this saga 
:thumbsup: -for all your efforts


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## rholmesr (Oct 8, 2010)

*Nice work Al!*

Glad to hear it runs. The heat makes some sense - thanks probably to the high gearing.

I'm surprised it could hang with a stock t-jet on short straightaway. That arm must really have a lot of torque capacity.

Nice job. Thanks for keeping us in the loop on your progress. :thumbsup:


It might be beating a dead horse ( :beatdeadhorse: ) but:
If anybody would want to mess with the concept further, changing the top idler to about a 20T (i.e. the smaller of the two 4-gear idlers) and the rear gear to a 14/14T combo (two 14T brass gears soldered together with small spacer between them - I made one once for a "tuff ones/xlerator" build - boy is that a fast car!!) or maybe a 12/12T and a 19T super-II crown might fit okay and would reduce the gear ratio of this unit about 50 percent - maybe that would be enuf to make it run cooler.

Once you decide to go with hand-made combo gears, you could even make a 14/9T and get the ratio back close to t-jet land.


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## SouthLyonBen (Mar 14, 2012)

Well you were more successful than me, I got mine to run a few laps but nothing to write home about, though the gearing in mine was essentially stock AFX ratio, so maybe that's all there is.... I felt some sense of victory when I got it to move at all so yeah :thumbsup:


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