# Large Excelsior Project



## Tracy Mann (Feb 13, 2004)

This started out with a few parts from the old Lunar Models kit as a base, but so much has been changed and corrected using detailed images of the studio model during its NX configuration, it is no longer anywhere near the same kit. A complete re-shaping of major sections that includes profiles, lengths, widths, and comparative size ratios from one hull section to another has all been corrected. The 'masters' will allow new hull sections to be vacuum formed in clear very much like Trek studio models were made at ILM.
The Excelsior was started in 2013, worked on through 2018, then shelved for a couple of years - Life gets in the way...
I recently started picking at it again with collaboration with a 3D modeler helping out with some smaller sections of the ship I didn't care to scratch build. We worked great together to bring back the most accurate details possible in areas such as the dorsal torp launchers, aft torp launchers, the deflector dish, the warp nacelle greebles what were originated from a Darth Vader TIE Fighter hatch. The Main Shuttle bay Observation dome is also 3D printed along with the Impulse crystal. You will see a LOT of scratch built sections cut and lathed by hand as well.

Here is the masters in their current state. Hope you like my progress so far.


----------



## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Wow! Looking great so far  What is the scale on that monster?


----------



## FlyingBrickyard (Dec 21, 2011)

PerfesserCoffee said:


> Wow! Looking great so far  What is the scale on that monster?


Assuming in the first pic the parts are laid out in proper relation, and the originally intended length of the NX-2000 at 467m, it appears to be roughly 1/460 scale.

Looking forward to seeing more of this one!


----------



## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

Oh boy, this is gonna be great!!!!








-Jim G.G.


----------



## charonjr (Mar 27, 2000)

There was a fellow on youtube who had 3D printed a 1:1 scale model. It was impressive, but at 8 feet, too big for this 30 foot RV! LOL! I am hoping you plan on duplicating this model for sale. I look forward to parting with my limited income to obtain one from you!

Oh, BTW, Tracy, did you correct for outer ring of the upper saucer so that it is slightly angled upwards from outer to inner edge? Both the LM and The Collective had it completely flat. (HOPING!!!!)


----------



## Tracy Mann (Feb 13, 2004)

No, but I will NOW! Thanks, and nice catch! Not a hard fix to make.

Tracy


----------



## charonjr (Mar 27, 2000)

Hi Tracy,

You are welcome. I become a self taught expert on Excelsior by using pics of the shooting model to build a 3D Lightwave model of it. That was 20 years ago and I was hoping to do what you are doing now. But, my lack of income meant not having the means to sculpt it and vacuform it. I look forward to your endeavour's completion, as I would love to buy it!
Thanks!


----------



## irishtrek (Sep 17, 2005)

Back about 15 years ago Starseeker had posted some drawings of the Excelsior with 100 percent accurate window placements for the secondary hull. I know they're accurate because I printed them out and compared them to photos from Star Trek the magazine series from the '90s as well as images off Trek Core's web site.


----------



## electric indigo (Dec 21, 2011)

Are you aware of Bill George's picdump on imgur?



http://imgur.com/a/V98w5


----------



## irishtrek (Sep 17, 2005)

Yes I am aware of his post, I also save several of his images from there for reference and when I move to a larger place hopefully I'll get me on made from scratch in a scale of 537.


----------



## Tracy Mann (Feb 13, 2004)

OK, Great, Juuuust GREAT! 

While looking deeper into fixing the slant in that section on the top of the primary hull charonjr pointed out to me, I noticed something wasn't quite right. That ledge isn't wide enough! I scaled up studio model images to my scale to check the size and shape of the hull. My over-all hull diameter (lower lip) is dead on. The diameter at the upper lip of the side of the hull is dead on - making the angle of the side of the saucer dead on... Turns out... The diameter at the base of the primary hull's dome is 3/16" too big! That is A LOT in this scale, and throughs off the entire side profile of the saucer.

Plan B: The entire dome of the upper saucer is trash - has to come off. I have already traced out a wax paper template in scale to make a butt load of shaped frames for a new dome.

The way this is going, I should have just went ahead and completely scratch-built my own in 1/350! LOL ;-)


----------



## charonjr (Mar 27, 2000)

Sorry about the wrench I tossed into your project! but, I am very glad of your decision to remake the frames of the upper half of the saucer to make it even more accurate. When you have finished the project and decide to sell, I shall be a proud owner!


----------



## Tracy Mann (Feb 13, 2004)

Re-doing the upper half of the saucer. Turns out this is a good thing. discovered some dips-n-valleys in the dome that will also be corrected.

Removing the dome section...




Material being removed down to the domes correct diameter.



1mm sheet styrene cemented to the bottom of the dome to re-establish its height and profile.



A hole cut in the center of the dome's base to pour resin re-enforcement...



The resin is slosh cast to get is in all the nooks-n-crevasses...



The hole is sealed closed with painters tape, then hand roto-casted for a few minutes. As the resin began to set, the dome section was clamped down to a flat surface to prevent warping from the heat of the resin curing inside.



Once this fully cures (about 48 hours), I'll begin refining the shape of the edges. I have a very good profile of the dome from some plans scaled to this project. You can see it at the top of the last image. I'll be making a screed blade from that to level and smooth out the surface of the dome.

Tracy


----------



## Dr. Brad (Oct 5, 1999)

When this is done, it's going to be amazing!


----------



## Gunstar1 (Mar 1, 2007)

Looking amazing! That compass you were using for trimming down the diameter….what product is that? I'm looking for the most reliable way to rescribe the entire surface of the PL 350 refit (after major recontouring) Because of the curves involved I may just end up doing all sorts of goofy rigs using clamps, but always looking for something more stable.


----------



## Newbie123 (Sep 7, 2016)

What a wondeful project. I still haven't begun mine, but years ago I spent quite a lot of time drafting some blueprints for my prospective build. Somewhere on this site there should be my (Starseeker) old thread about how I made these drawings and my rationale behind the scaling. A while ago, I uploaded them to Imjur for another builder. They are here, tho' after a couple years, being a complete Imjur novice, I'm not sure how to open them at their actual size. Maybe you have to download them?

There are very few photos of the original Excelsior miniature online. The best, most detailed shots you'll find are of Greg Jein's version, which differs significantly from the original filming miniature.



http://imgur.com/DpWPY4A




http://imgur.com/j3o7PcJ




http://imgur.com/FlEDxMF




http://imgur.com/ygCwgLK




http://imgur.com/6tlI3Y8

imgur.com
imgur.com
imgur.com








imgur.com


Imgur: The magic of the Internet




imgur.com





Great build so far. Best of luck on your/my dream project!!


----------



## Milton Fox Racing (May 27, 2014)

If you click on your user name to left of one of your posts - it will open a pop up window that will show all the posts you made and all the threads you started. Click on the appropriate one and it will show each list of those types made under that user name. "Your" stargazer posts are there but not sure which post the drawings are (were) in. 🤙


----------



## Tracy Mann (Feb 13, 2004)

Well, a little bit more done fixing the upper saucer...

The ledge ring around the dome is cut with 1mm sheet styrene.


The ring was cemented to a sheet of .5mm, then the downward tapper was roughed in by hand with a Dremel tool and drum sander.


Fillers were added to level the surface and smooth it out.


... then sanded smooth.


On to fixing the shape of the dome, a screed blade was made from my ILM plans scaled to this project.


The first layer of screeding is always the roughest. This is to get the build up needed to raise it up to the correct profile. Several more screeding layers to come until it's built up, and a smooth surface is obtained.


Expecting more 3M Green filler in the mail today. Will add another layer and let it cure while I'm out on a 5-day trip.

Tracy


----------



## irishtrek (Sep 17, 2005)

Newbie123 said:


> What a wondeful project. I still haven't begun mine, but years ago I spent quite a lot of time drafting some blueprints for my prospective build. Somewhere on this site there should be my (Starseeker) old thread about how I made these drawings and my rationale behind the scaling. A while ago, I uploaded them to Imjur for another builder. They are here, tho' after a couple years, being a complete Imjur novice, I'm not sure how to open them at their actual size. Maybe you have to download them?
> 
> There are very few photos of the original Excelsior miniature online. The best, most detailed shots you'll find are of Greg Jein's version, which differs significantly from the original filming miniature.
> 
> ...


Back about 5-7 years ago I think it was some one either here or on SSM provided a link to Bill George's imjur post which has several images of the ORIGNAL Excelsior filming model taken out doors showing some great detailing.


----------



## Newbie123 (Sep 7, 2016)

Tracy: Sent you a pm, or started a "conversation", if that is what passes for a pm here these days. It's been a while, and I truly do feel like a Newbie here again. Hope it works.

My original thread, from long ago:








My 1/537 Excelsior Sketches


[November 23/09 This is a third edit of my original start to this thread, done to repost my updated “final” versions of my 1/537 Excelsior sketches. Final in quotation marks because I know that they’re not, that with any luck a lot of you out there will spot mistakes, add new information...




www.hobbytalk.com


----------



## Tracy Mann (Feb 13, 2004)

The process of building up the dome continues. This is the first sanding.









Checking the profile to the screed blade.









Creamier self leveling filler is applied.









Then sanded and blended in.









Red filler is added to fill in scratches an shallow dips in the surface.









As the dome cures, back to the saucers base. Here a centering jig is installed to make sure everything aligns when I put it all back together.









The saucer's base is then fill with resin. This will support its shaped and give it strength for the vacuum form process when making the hull parts.


















just a little more to go.









With the base slightly over-filled, this allows me to feather the resin into the shape of the hull.









Next, I start to stack the upper saucer back together....


----------



## Tracy Mann (Feb 13, 2004)

Here, the new downward tapered ledge ring is glued into place. Once cured it will be feathered into the hull.









After the ring is shaped into the hull, a little more refinement to the dome is needed before it goes back into place.

Tracy


----------



## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

This is exciting!
A true labor of love.
- Jim G.G.


----------



## charonjr (Mar 27, 2000)

Tracy, watching your work is Amazing!


----------



## Tracy Mann (Feb 13, 2004)

Well, The remaster of the upper primary hull half is done!

The layers and layers of filler to raise and reshape the dome.









First coat of primer...









After a few tweaks in sanding, filler, and more sanding, it's finished. This image shows the new dome profile, and the downward taper of the edge ring using the screed blade as a reference.









Thinking about what to tackle next... looks like fixing the shape and detail of the nacelle struts.

Tracy


----------



## Tracy Mann (Feb 13, 2004)

From this...









to this...


----------



## charonjr (Mar 27, 2000)

Tracy Mann said:


> Well, The remaster of the upper primary hull half is done!
> 
> The layers and layers of filler to raise and reshape the dome.
> View attachment 311444
> ...


Beautiful! Beautiful! Nicely done! I love your skillset and your attention to detail, Tracy! Looking forward to the neck and its 20 plates!


----------



## Tracy Mann (Feb 13, 2004)

Oh, that's already done dude!... You need to revisit page one of this thread. And it's not 20, it's 41. You forgot to add the spacer plates.

All the hand cut plating is done for the neck, the nacelles, and the nacelle conduit blister.

Tracy


----------



## Tracy Mann (Feb 13, 2004)

The Nacelle Struts are next. These parts are badly shaped, and lack a LOT of detail. I will be starting on these very soon...









After finishing the new masters, I will be making molds, then casting them with brass tubing for wiring, and steal rods to give them strength to prevent sagging.

Tracy


----------



## StarCruiser (Sep 28, 1999)

Basically - you've scratchbuilt the whole thing... Admit it (not like that's a bad thing)!


----------



## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

Very nice work on this, Tracy. It is fun following your progress on this project. Your work in fabricating the new parts and rebuilding old parts into a more accurate reflection of the studio model is exceptional. This has definitely piqued my interest in pulling out my own kit that I bought from Mike back in the 90's and giving it a go. Maybe I can apply my new-found skills at 3D printing to create some new parts for mine and finally get it into shape.

Keep up the great work!


----------



## ExLunaScientia (Mar 25, 2020)

Tracy Mann said:


> This started out with a few parts from the old Lunar Models kit as a base, but so much has been changed and corrected using detailed images of the studio model during its NX configuration, it is no longer anywhere near the same kit. A complete re-shaping of major sections that includes profiles, lengths, widths, and comparative size ratios from one hull section to another has all been corrected. The 'masters' will allow new hull sections to be vacuum formed in clear very much like Trek studio models were made at ILM.
> The Excelsior was started in 2013, worked on through 2018, then shelved for a couple of years - Life gets in the way...
> I recently started picking at it again with collaboration with a 3D modeler helping out with some smaller sections of the ship I didn't care to scratch build. We worked great together to bring back the most accurate details possible in areas such as the dorsal torp launchers, aft torp launchers, the deflector dish, the warp nacelle greebles what were originated from a Darth Vader TIE Fighter hatch. The Main Shuttle bay Observation dome is also 3D printed along with the Impulse crystal. You will see a LOT of scratch built sections cut and lathed by hand as well.
> 
> Here is the masters in their current state. Hope you like my progress so far.


I'm glad you're accurizing the LM kit. I bought that monster back in the day, looked at the parts, and realized it was a hot mess. I ended up selling it.


----------



## charonjr (Mar 27, 2000)

I have a copy of the modified LM Excelsior. I think it was redone by The Collective (?). I am thinking of just making minor corrections to it and make it an Excelsior Class variant. When yours is complete and is, perhaps, available to buy, then I will make an accurate scale version of this fine ship.


----------



## Tracy Mann (Feb 13, 2004)

Have not worked on this since before the holidays. Hobby Room is getting a face lift before I can start into building again.

I found a vacuum form table with heat box big enough to do pulls on any of my hull masters. I need to mound all my hulls on 3/8" to 1/2" MDF bucks to get them elevated off the table to ensure clean results without wrinkles in the pulls. The table should be here in March.

Tracy


----------



## charonjr (Mar 27, 2000)

WONDERFUL!!!!! I am soooo looking forward to this!


----------



## Tracy Mann (Feb 13, 2004)

Pulled some of the Excelsior off the shelf to figure out something that has been bothering me for quite a while. The Primary Hull's superstructure just didn't seem quite right to me, but not enough to look closer at it until late last night. This is a big hunk of resin from the Lunar Models kit that has already been heavily modified.

I scaled a Studio Model image up to my scale and started really looking at what the problem is and traced it out on printer paper... 










Everything seemed right. Length, width, crystal location, then I laid the master down on the tracing. The Chines were too short! They didn't come forward enough...










Easy fix to something that's been bugging me about "what's missing" for a few years now. I'll male a template off the tracing to make sheet styrene plates to glue to the upper surface, then fill in below to where the saucer's surface will be with Apoxie Sculpt. 

Pics for this fix to come!

Tracy


----------



## Tracy Mann (Feb 13, 2004)

Chine corrections are in, as well as a little dressing up of the bow of the superstructure forward of the bridge.

A small piece of sheet styrene for the shape back filled with Apoxie Sculpt.

Top









Bottom


----------



## StarCruiser (Sep 28, 1999)

I'll say it again - you've made so many changes that you might as well make a new kit out of it!


----------



## Tracy Mann (Feb 13, 2004)

Here you can see that I have chiseled and ground specific details 1/4" more forward to meet the superstructure's profile.

The chines are now feathered in and the bow of the superstructure is more refined.

This is a master that will also be vacuum form in clear for lighting.


----------



## Tracy Mann (Feb 13, 2004)

Progress on the Superstructur Master.

Here, a clay plug is fasioned off the shape of the Impulse Crystal insert.









Apoxie Sculpt added to the Leading Edges of the Impulse Crystal recess.










The clay plug is pressed into place.


----------



## Tracy Mann (Feb 13, 2004)

The resin is poured in to back-fill the new surface of the upper plate profile.

















The clay plug is them pulled out to reveal the new recess for the Impulse Crystal trench.









The entire super structure is sanded, and blended with the new profile, cleaned up and now ready for a new primer coat.









Pics on the primer and the templates for all the raised detail to come.

Tracy


----------



## Tracy Mann (Feb 13, 2004)

Here's the master fully primed. The scratch built bridge dome and 3D modeled Impulse Crystal are in place. The paper templates are also place where that raised plate detail will be glued to the clear vacuum form pull of the superstructure.


----------



## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

Tracy Mann said:


> Here's the master fully primed. The scratch built bridge dome and 3D modeled Impulse Crystal are in place. The paper templates are also place where that raised plate detail will be glued to the clear vacuum form pull of the superstructure.
> 
> View attachment 319200


Gorgeous!
-Jim G.G.


----------



## Tracy Mann (Feb 13, 2004)

Finished up the Masters for the Superstructure section.

Raised and recessed Impulse Crystal detail plating made using 1mm X 1mm Tamiya grid tape.









Tracing out the raise bridge dome and spine plate with a paper template on 2.5mm thick sheet styrene.









Grinding away anything that isn't the plate detail.









Everything done and set in its place the the Superstructure Buck except the two vertical fins awaiting 3D printing. The Impulse engine exhausts will be scratch built when the ship actually goes together.









Eventually, I have to tackel the warp nacelle pylons...

Tracy


----------



## charonjr (Mar 27, 2000)

Tracy, this is truly wonderful craftsmanship! I used to have the patience and motivation to do work like this. Now, I forget most things, am highly distractible, and leave projects begun and don't remember they exist. If your Excelsior is someday obtainable, I will have to write a series of re-"minders" to guide me on procedure, timing, etc. Remind me that there's a build in progress and what to do at that time. 

I envy your tenacity and skill. I look forward to following your progress and the completion of the final piece. It will be a testament to your artistry. I can only hope to accomplish a final build of Excelsior, should she become available for me to do so.


----------



## Tracy Mann (Feb 13, 2004)

Lil' update... 3D printed fins arrived today.


----------



## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

Wow!🤯
-Jim G.G.


----------



## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Gettin' really real, now! 👍


----------



## charonjr (Mar 27, 2000)

In the hopes of reviving this thread: Tracy, it is now 2/28/2022, nearly 9 months later.... How are you and how is your Excelsior build? 

Hoping you are well!
David in Tucson


----------



## EPITOME_A&D (10 mo ago)

irishtrek said:


> Yes I am aware of his post, I also save several of his images from there for reference and when I move to a larger place hopefully I'll get me on made from scratch in a scale of 537.


Did You know there are is very Limited Edition of 1/537 scale USS Excelsior Kits signed and numbered by george takei being pre-sold shipping in the next 60 days. You can build one of three version out of box, NX, NCC, 1701-B.


----------



## edge10 (Oct 19, 2013)

charonjr said:


> In the hopes of reviving this thread: Tracy, it is now 2/28/2022, nearly 9 months later.... How are you and how is your Excelsior build?
> 
> Hoping you are well!
> David in Tucson


Since Tracy hasn't replied here yet, I will copy his post from Feb 15th, over here:



> I took a break from modeling due to friends n family issues. I’ve been getting back into it slowly with smaller projects. Work on the secondary hull’s cargo bay have had some forward progress, and the Warp Nacelle pylons have been planned out in my head. Hope to pull her down off the shelf soon.
> 
> Tracy


----------



## irishtrek (Sep 17, 2005)

EPITOME_A&D said:


> Did You know there are is very Limited Edition of 1/537 scale USS Excelsior Kits signed and numbered by george takei being pre-sold shipping in the next 60 days. You can build one of three version out of box, NX, NCC, 1701-B.


No I did not know that. Where can one find them and what's the expected price rang also will they be resin or styrene??


----------



## charonjr (Mar 27, 2000)

edge10 said:


> Since Tracy hasn't replied here yet, I will copy his post from Feb 15th, over here:


Thank you, IrishTrek. It's been a while since I have been here. It's good to know that Tracy is okay and that, while delayed, his Excelsior Project progresses!


----------



## Tracy Mann (Feb 13, 2004)

I discovered another flaw in the LM saucer's profile. The outer edge of the saucer is at the incorrect angle. Here are images on how I corrected it. If I had noticed this when I made the earlier corrections, I would have done this all at one time.

Angle differences, The disc was not made wide enough to correct the outer side angle...









Here, the ring area is sanded and cleaned up to prep for a new ring.










The new ring is cut, cemented into place and feathered into the base of the dome with fillers.



















Seen here, you can see how the wider ring will correct the profile at the saucer's edge.










Smooth-On Filler Dough is haphazardly pressed into the saucer's edge.










Then smoothed into place with water-wet fingers.










Another application of the Smooth-On dough was applied, smoothed in, then sanded to prep for the first layer of putty.


----------



## Tracy Mann (Feb 13, 2004)

Here, the filler was sanded to begin leveling out the new profile.









Next, the fine red filler was applied to fill in small scratches and further level out the final surface.










Then sanded and blended in.










First coats of primer have already been applied. More pics to come.

On a side note, digital modeling of the main cargo bay has begun for the 3D printed part.

Tracy


----------



## Tracy Mann (Feb 13, 2004)

Satisfied by the results. Calling the saucer masters complete.


----------



## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

That looks great! Can you make me one? The whole ship that is.
🙂
-Jim G.G.


----------



## Tracy Mann (Feb 13, 2004)

As I get closer to start the build, I've finally began looking deeper into the vacuum forming process. In doing so, I discovered that it's highly likely that the heat from the hot styrene will most likely damage if not destroy my masters due to the materials they are made of. I just ordered a large amount of molding and casting material to copy my masters. The molding material can take up to 450deg F. Plastics require up to 375deg F to successfully soften the plastic to form properly. I'll have the option to pull the plastic down into a mold or cast copies of the masters and use them as bucks.



Before all that, I have to start the corrections to the nacelle struts. This will be the last of the corrections, but there is a list of smaller scratch-builds to accomplish. In addition, the work on the 3D print for the main cargo bay is already in the works by Bob Morgan.



Tracy


----------



## Tracy Mann (Feb 13, 2004)

Just for fun, I was digging around and found the Collective's version of the Planetary Sensor Dome at the bottom of a scaps box. Here it is compared to my scratch built verson. This master will be molded and cast in resin. But the dome part will be cast in clear due to two of the radii's emit light.


----------



## charonjr (Mar 27, 2000)

edge10 said:


> Since Tracy hasn't replied here yet, I will copy his post from Feb 15th, over here:


Thank you, Edge10! Apologies for not thanking you earlier. Usually I am very tired when on here. 

- David in Tucson


----------



## charonjr (Mar 27, 2000)

Tracy Mann said:


> Just for fun, I was digging around and found the Collective's version of the Planetary Sensor Dome at the bottom of a scaps box. Here it is compared to my scratch built verson. This master will be molded and cast in resin. But the dome part will be cast in clear due to two of the radii's emit light.
> 
> View attachment 331335


I have the Collective's Excelsior (2nd Version). There is so much to do to make it look good, that it sits under the bed waiting for me to decide to start it! I've had it for 20 years. I used to have the first version. I wish I could get a hold of the saucer section. The structure of the bottom half was similar to the Enterprise. 

Anyway, I am seriously looking forward to being in the universe where you sell a copy of it to me! LOL!
-David in Tucson


----------



## Tracy Mann (Feb 13, 2004)

Some modeling of the "greebled" parts has had significant progress.
Main Cargo Bay shown upside down.










The forward Warp Nacelle greebles made from the Darth Vader MPC TIE Fighters kit's cockpit hatch.

















As seen on the studio model









Significant upgrades to the aft torpedo launchers is underway as well. Pics to come.


One final shape fix to the super structure's distinguished tapering's... The top horizontal one is already done.
The side walls are not pure vertical. They flair out slightly wider at the bottom of the structure.









Tracy


----------



## charonjr (Mar 27, 2000)

This is beautiful work! The warp engine greeblie was the last work I did towards accurizing the Excelsior mesh I was making in Lightwave 3D. I started this mesh in 1999. I got to the point with later iterations of Lightwave where the mesh filing system I was using in Lightwave 6 became unwieldy in 9, 11, 2015. I haven't finished it, yet. That greeblie was the last bit I started working on, but had trouble doing accurately. Now, I have 2020, which I will have to relearn, a steep curve, and convert my filing system for the mesh to the Photoshop-like one that Lightwave has used since Lightwave 7.5 (IIRC). Your work is like a dream come true!


----------



## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

That's the Darth Vader TIE fighter piece, isn't it?


----------



## Tracy Mann (Feb 13, 2004)

Small update.

The aft Torp launcher 3D modeling has been improved with better detail. Happy with the final results and can't wait to see they it print.

Instead of ordering from Shapeways, I have purchased a Elegoo Saturn 2 8K resin printer. I think this will be much nicer that the Shapeways products I've been spending a small fortune on all this time.



















In addition, just torp launcher tubes were included. These go in the recessed ports just under the dorsal neck in the secondary hull.

Tracy


----------



## electric indigo (Dec 21, 2011)

The prints I've seen from the Saturn seem to be impressive, looking forward to hear your experience.


----------

