# Track Borders - Let's Get Serious



## Dslot

In the Track Building Forum's "40-year wait" thread, the subject of Tomy's making track borders (AKA "spin aprons"; Aurora called them "speed corners") came up. What if we forum members went beyond simply calling for turn borders, and try to design a product that Tomy or others might consider producing. There are at least three questions to consider: 

1. What features would you want to see in pre-made turn borders? 

2. What features would a major manufacturer like Tomy need to see in an assortment of turn borders before they'd commit to developing and marketing it?

3. Is there any track-related product that you'd rather see Tomy put the development effort into, than a system of turn borders?​
Here are some aspects of the problem I mentioned in the thread:



> Injection-molded borders means a lot of new metal dies (molds) to carve - a 45° length in five curve diameters, plus probably a 90° for some, plus a straight piece or two tapered lead-in pieces (left and right hand).
> 
> I'm wondering if they couldn't just do a long flexible strip. It could be sold in a roll, (like Woodland Scenics flex-foam roadbed for HO trains), and the buyer just lays it around whatever curves he's using and cuts to length. Maybe red/white on one side, plain black on the other. Cheap to produce. Unfortunately, it's useful only for a permanently-mounted track. I'd guess temporary-setup buyers form the bulk of Tomy's customer base, and a product they can't use doesn't have the sales potential Tomy needs.
> 
> Could the product be done so that temporary-setup customers could use it easily?
> 
> Can Tomy's cars (all high-downforce magnetics) even _use_ fishtailing space? Would Tomy want to develop a product that's only useful for people to run other-makers' cars on their track?


Sounds like a decent subject for a thread. We haven't heard from our "friend at the bank", Steve (*Wahoo*) for a while. Maybe he could tell us what a manufacturer like Tomy or Racemasters would need to see, to make them seriously consider the idea.

-- D


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## Dslot

*Display*

From a manufacturer's viewpoint, one problem with marketing borders is display space.

Tomy/AFX displays its track products carded on pegs. Borders for five track radii plus straight or lead-in borders would take six pegs. That means Tomy will be looking for the border system to generate income equal or higher than six separate products. Yowch! 

It looks like borders might have to be a mailorder/internet-order only product; or else be sold in stores in boxed or carded assortments - say, a box of mixed 6", 9" & 12" pieces, and a box of mixed 15" and 18" and straight pieces, with individual sizes available by internet-order only. 

-- D


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## 1976Cordoba

I think if the borders were some sort of flexible, extruded rubber material AFX could just sell a roll of material instead of going thru the hassle of making a curve mold. Would take up one peg spot, and that is basically what is happening anyway when people buy border material from McMaster-Carr or Greg Braun anyway.

I think putting money into a track piece that could read a unique chip on each car and calculate fuel mileage / make pit stops / etc. would add to the home-set racing experience.

My $.02 worth.


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## Joe65SkylarkGS

I'd rather see a 5 or 6 in wide 2 lane track for the drag strip. I think it sucks that it's going to be the same old track.

But I just use the Aurora speed corners, but you can use some flexible cork kinda stuff to make them.


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## oldraceral

Dslot, I understand Tomy's reluctance to put money into a small demand item like turn borders. Your point about high-downforce, combined with multi-level tracks would mean they really don't need borders. I'm building a new track and have the materials to build my own borders, but looking forward to the time and effort it will require had me wishing for a simpler solution.


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## resinmonger

Carrera, Scalextric, SCX, etc. have all developed a successful model for manufacturing and selling turn aprons. That pretty much proves it can be done. The question is basically would it work in HO scale? I think you need to follow the patterns set by the large scale companies.

Look at a basic figure-8 Scalextric set's components. It has aprons for 180 degrees of the corners and guard railing for the remaining 360 degrees as well as a pair of straight apron transition pieces. So, the aprons are offered in a set. If you like them, they are available to buy separately. Putting aprons in the sets for at least some of the turns ensures that you are going to 1) sell some and 2) get some buyers hooked on the idea.

The same practices should work in HO. The HO manufacturer who is the first to introduce aprons would have a possible advantage. In the larger scales, all track types have aprons. In HO, it would be something new. One could claim thier track system to be more _professional_ or more like the larger scales. Selling the aprons in 1/8th (or even 1/16th for the larger radii) would be a way to minimize the tooling cost. 

All that being said, I am not a marketing firm... :freak:


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## Dslot

1976Cordoba said:


> I think if the borders were some sort of flexible, extruded rubber material AFX could just sell a roll of material instead of going thru the hassle of making a curve mold. Would take up one peg spot, and that is basically what is happening anyway when people buy border material from McMaster-Carr or Greg Braun anyway.


As I said in the message above.


> I'm wondering if they couldn't just do a long flexible strip. It could be sold in a roll ... Maybe red/white on one side, plain black on the other. Cheap to produce. Unfortunately, it's useful only for a permanently-mounted track. I'd guess temporary-setup buyers form the bulk of Tomy's customer base, and a product they can't use doesn't have the sales potential Tomy needs.


The other problem is, as you say, that Tomy's making it doesn't give us anything we don't already have. What could Tomy add to the product that would give us something new and/or would give Tomy a reason to want to make it?

To make a flex-strip usable in a non-permanent setup --

- it has to curve horizontally without popping up vertically, so it can be used without having to tack it to the table.

- then it has to have a means to attach it securely to existing Tomy track, and ideally, a means to attach a Tomy guardrail on the outside edge.

Maybe something like this clip that attaches permanently to the border with an adhesive patch, and temporarily clips onto track like guardrails.


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## Rolls

Now that's something new. Interesting idea. Slick!


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## noddaz

Wow Dslot...
Nice...


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## 440s-4ever

I think you could attach with magnets and avoid having to produce a clip or modify the track tooling. It's already supported on the bottom by the floor or table, and any clip is going to cause track twist by lifting the outer edge.

What's in my head right now is a couple neo's epoxied under the track, along it's outer edge. Have a curved piece of medium gage sheetmetal that inserts into apron from the bottom, thus doing double duty as a magnet attractor and a curve-former. 

The nice thing about the sheetmetal piece.....if you were careful choosing the natural curve of the apron, and careful with thickness of the sheetmetal, you might be able to form the same apron to 2 different curve radii. But the same thing could be accomplished with a rigid plastic forming strip that contained magnets or metal bits

To comment on your #3...Personally, I think the market for stunt track and fancy curves is under-developed. I'd sure like to see a lot more oddities like 3D corkscrews, etc. If you look at ebay, there's much more demand for stunt sections than plain track, and the stunt sections are what drive the value of used track sets (other than the cars themselves). 

If the stunts were released and marked in an annual fashion, it would ensure a base level of sales. Not just collectors, but each sale would also be a commercial to the buyer....saying come back and get next year's stunt. Every year make X amount then stop. Maybe after a pause of a few years, or after selling out the initial "collector" lot the stunt could be released in a set, but it would need some kind of color or marking difference so the collectors do not feel cheated. 

When you look at how far the car-collecting side of this hobby has been pushed, it's suprising the track market has not been explored further. We've got all these wonderful cars, give us new things to do with them!

good luck!


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## ParkRNDL

FWIW, I am sure Tyco has made 9s and 12s because I have some of each, and I seem to recall they made 6s for their rare 6" curve sections, but I have never run across any. (I am fortunate to have bought 6 original Tyco 6" radius 90 degree turn sections from the late, great Kipp.) The 12s are from the Jeremy McGrath dirt bike set and have a rocky-looking outer edge, which you can see in the Track Building section under Rich's Thunderbird Speedway or my Inspired By Thunderbird Speedway. The Tyco 9s and 12s seem to work pretty well, so they might make a good starting point if a cottage industry manufacturer wanted to start somewhere...

--rick


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## resinmonger

While turn aprons would now doubt be made from new tooling, it is worth noting that an apron for any given radius turn is very similar to the inner quarter or third on the next largest radius turn. For example, an apron for a 12 in turn has the same inner dimensions as the inner portion of a 15 in turn. IMHO, this means the new tooling would be a modification of the existing turn tooling. The one exception is an apron for an 18 in turn since there isn't a 21 in turn.

Again, I believe the larger scale track manufacturers have proven that aprons are viable products.


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## slotcarman12078

Being given this info makes me wonder.... What is the possibility of one of our resin casting gurus modifying a 9", a 12", a 15" and an 18" curve and make molds of these? They could be secured to the track via track clips and have a lip set into the outside edge to accommodate an optional guard rail. I can't see a company like Tomy AFX making these, even if they make them part of a set, and then make them available separately. Retail peg space is at a premium, and from what I've read and been told, if something doesn't sell in a week, it usually doesn't get room on the pegs. To make it profitable for them, tooled correctly, they would have to sell a huge amount. For a caster to take on the project, they could probably be profitable by the 10th set provided they hit the nail on the head first time out. A little curve cutting, a little styrene strip and goop and you'd be 90% there. The raised arch like the old Aurora speed corners might be tricky, but then would it even be required? I would think a flat apron would be fine.


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## ParkRNDL

slotcarman12078 said:


> (snip) I would think a flat apron would be fine.


The above mentioned Tyco aprons are flat, they work great.

--rick


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## resinmonger

slotcarman12078 said:


> I would think a flat apron would be fine.


Right you are Joe! All of the curent types of user made borders are flat - railroad cork, insulation strips, or Greg Brauns neoprene strips. Home made resin parts would work. 

As to peg space, the aprons wouldn't take any more space than a pair of turns as they are currently packaged.


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## Grandcheapskate

Wishing for a manufacturer to produce aprons is probably just that - wishing. You must first understand that track itself is not a big seller. You would be surprised at the low volume of track sales worldwide. Laying out the money to produce a mold that will not produce a profit for (potentially) years is not very enticing. 

Auto World produces 5,000 cars during a release and they can sell out in a couple months, or quicker. Believe it or not, selling 5,000 pieces of track, not sets but an individual track piece, could take a year or more. When I made the Tyco curves (and yes, I know most people want Tomy, but can you imagine how much Tyco is out there), I figured there had to be 500 people worldwide who would take 10 pieces each. That would have turned a profit. Either I was wrong or those people don't know they exist.

How much track have you purchased in the last year not counting sets? How many of your favorite vendors even sell track?

So, aprons are in the same situation. In fact, when you consider you need both inside and outside aprons for 4 or 5 different radius curves, plus the lead in/out straight, you need to make 10-11 molds. And in looking at your layout, how many would you buy? Then multiply that by the small number of people in our hobby and you'll see why aprons aren't being produced.

It's the same with new banked curve sizes. Realistically, how many would you buy? Would you invest $20,000-$25,000 minimum for each apron size or banked curve? If you were a vendor, would you buy aprons if you only sold a few a month?

It's much better to look at other options such as rubber strips. I think that is the way to go. There's a couple good suggestions in this thread and maybe someone puts it all together with an idea that is simple and works.

Thanks...Joe


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## Rolls

I must be one of the biggest fans of the old yellow Aurora speed corners. I used them as a kid on MM L&J track running tjets for years, then original AFX cars in the mix for years after that. Still, with even a little magnetic downforce, I'd have to say I'd probably prefer flat aprons now. Upsetting the car's height from the rails and track surface just seems to introduce unnecessary abruptness to the sliding behavior of anything more magnetic than an original AFX car with moderate to weak motor magnets. Bring on the flat borders. Flat is good. Flat is where it's at. Flat is all that.


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## Dslot

> _*440s-4ever* sez:_ I think you could attach with magnets and avoid having to produce a clip or modify the track tooling. It's already supported on the bottom by the floor or table, and any clip is going to cause track twist by lifting the outer edge.


I don't think a clip will cause significant track twist. It's lifting the outer edge no more than guardrail bases already do, and much less if you stamp the clip from sheetmetal. The sheetmetal clip couldn't be as complex in shape as the plastic clip. But it wouldn't have to be - you could use a little magnet in the guardrail base to stick it to the metal clip. Ta-dah!



> What's in my head right now is a couple neo's epoxied under the track, along it's outer edge. Have a curved piece of medium gage sheetmetal that inserts into apron from the bottom, thus doing double duty as a magnet attractor and a curve-former.


I doubt any major manufacturer is going to sell magnets as part of a new product and say, "Epoxy these to the inside of the track." They're not hobby manufacturers; they're toy manufacturers. Everything's got to be instant gratification snap-on or stick-on. It's *us* who turn the toys into hobbies. Now, they _might_ make peel-and-stick self-adhesive neo magnets, and suddenly the metal-edged flexible border idea is back in the running.



> To comment on your #3...Personally, I think the market for stunt track and fancy curves is under-developed. I'd sure like to see a lot more oddities like 3D corkscrews, etc.


Well, I'm not much for corkscrews or loops, but I like some of the hazard tracks from the old Aurora lines. I'd be interested in a Tomy-compatible version of these Aurora classics:
- rough track section (like Aurora's Cobblestone Track),
- chicane track, where the slot makes a small wiggle and back.
- lane-crossing track on a curve (if and only if they can engineer one that doesn't stub the car's toe when the centrifugal effect forces the pin against the outside edge of the slot - has anyone ever gotten these things to work with pin-cars like Thunderjets? I haven't.).
- bump track and bridge tracks (not usable by modern low-clearance magnet cars, so I might as well forget any commercial production).
- banked esses (like the old AFX ones - pretty, but likely a problem for min-clearance magnetistas).

These all seem like fairly reasonable representations of actual features on the older style road-course tracks, and present the driver with fresh problems to solve. But it's a problem for manufacturers, too. One person's small layout might have six to twenty-six identical straight or curve sections, but only ONE hazard track. Are they gonna tool up for something that will return only a fraction of the sales of the next ten items in the product line?

Guess I'll just have to use old lock & joiner hazard tracks and epoxy Tomy ends on them. 

-- D


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## 440s-4ever

Dslot said:


> Are they gonna tool up for something that will return only a fraction of the sales of the next ten items in the product line?


Give em the handle, they'll buy the razor heads :thumbsup:

Even if the track is lower profit than the cars, the products are intertwined. And I don't think the stunts/hazards are comparable to normal straits or curves when talking sales. When my track gets a new hazard, it's the star of the show for a couple weeks until all my buddies have a chance to race it. My friend's kids all have a favorite hazard and ask me to put it in the track when they're over. New straits or normal curves are considered consumable supplies since the tips break sometimes. When they show up in the mail, I don't call friends over to race. 

Point being, that hazard gives us a reason to use the track. We're wearing out cars and buying new ones. We're making future slot car fans. 

Please tomy, make the annual stunt/hazard release part of our christmas list every year. We can't buy it if you don't make it. 

PS- 2-level jump. Go slow, drop onto the lower landing strip. Go fast, hit the upper landing strip. Landing strips tie back together. The harder the stunt is on cars, the more cars get sold


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## Dslot

> _*440s-4ever* sez:_ Give em the handle, they'll buy the razor heads :thumbsup:


A very good point, *440s*. Something I lost sight of.

-- D


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## twolff

Most of the kids (and adults) that I've had use my track don't need stunt or gimmick track sections to wreck cars


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## buzzinhornet

Tyco 9" inside/outside turn borders. I wonder if Mattel acquired the molds and still have them from the Tyco buyout.


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## Rolls

'doba is selling a set of those Tyco borders right now, btw.


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## Rolls

I'm no resin guy, but wouldn't those make a nice mold for casting? Or is resin inappropriate for some reason?


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## Dslot

Rolls said:


> I'm no resin guy, but wouldn't those make a nice mold for casting? Or is resin inappropriate for some reason?


Many years ago, I cast polyester resin borders in a plaster mold I took from the Aurora dished/banked borders ("speed corners"). I cast them solid - I'd guess for commercial production, they'd be cast hollow, with some internal bracing. The main problem was the little clip-extensions that held the border to the track piece. They broke very easily - resin is brittle. A wire inclusion would have helped - mini re-bar.

Actually, if I were thinking of making borders commercially, I _would_ try casting them solid. But in foam, not in resin, and with add-on metal clips. 

But I'm inclined to doubt that track borders are suited to small-volume production. Car bodies in resin cost between $10 and $20. Borders are simpler to mold, but use much more material. Let's say these factors cancel. I can't imagine anyone paying $10 a border section. $40 to do a 12" R 180° curve section? 60-80 bucks if you want to do the insides, too? When cork can do the inside _and_ outside (and have some left over) for about $5, is usable for any radius - and is always in stock at the local hobbyshop?

It's going to take mass production and mass marketing to bring down the unit price to the couple of bucks a section that hobbyists or set-buyers will be willing to spend.

That's my guess, anyway.

-- D


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## slotcarman12078

I can understand the brittle resin problem, but there are different types of resin out there. The stuff Bad Dawg uses is nice and flexible. The silicone would be the biggest expense. From what I've read, there's maybe .50 - 1.00 worth of resin tops in a body. Because of the simple design, with no undercuts, I'm pretty sure the molds would last a decent amount of time. Maybe someone who resin casts on a regular basis can chime in here. The masters would be fairly simple to make. I can almost visualize them. Locking tabs on the ends to latch them together.


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## JWL Slot Cars

Here's one option. this is a jiada 1/43 R1 border that is the same radius as jjslots 1/64 r2 curves. so probably Jiada 1/32 r1 border would also fit 1/64 r3 curves. I know that they fit 1/43 R2 turns










-Jeff


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## kiwidave

Those look cool Jeff!! Do they clip to the track??


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## JWL Slot Cars

Yes they do clip to the track. The guardrails also attach directly to the borders via peg into hole instead of the normal clip on. the rumble strips are raised slightly above the surface of the track and green portion of the border. 

















-Jeff


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## NTxSlotCars

*... outside the slot car box.*

Hmmm....

something moldable, temporary or permanent, and inexpensive....

How bout this stuff???


























Just roll it out and WALLA...
It comes in a variety of colors, and at $3 a block, I can't complain.


















Rich
www.northtexasslotcars.com :thumbsup:


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## resinmonger

Hey Rich, the package sez it never hardens. How does that work for boarders?


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## Rolls

And what's the slidyiness of the modeling clay?


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## NTxSlotCars

resinmonger said:


> Hey Rich, the package sez it never hardens. How does that work for boarders?


It's not really that soft to begin with, and stays in place good.

Rolls,
Once some dust collects on it, it's just as slick as the track is, but not too slick.
It starts out pretty grippy.


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## Rolls

Thanks, NTx! There's definitely a few places on my track where that might be just the ticket. And inexpensive, too. Always helps.

I don't want to interrupt the excellent border brainstorming DSlot started, though. We're still at a little bit of a disadvantage wrt the bigger scales. The more border ideas, the better.


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## Dslot

Thanks to Rich for the clay idea, but I'd like to keep this discussion on the possibilities of *manufactured* borders. 

There are plenty of methods for cheap, effective do-it-yourself borders, but people keep calling for manufacturers to make sectional borders, so I thought a discussion was in order on the features people would want in *pre-made borders*, and the considerations for the manufacturer.

Personally, I'm a bit surprised at the continued call. It's easy enough, and much cheaper, to make your own, but they need to be glued or nailed to the table, so they're not for the normal race-set buyer who sets up on the floor or table temporarily.

For those who want to make their own -- 
this thread has a pretty thorough discussion of the options. If you're considering using cork, be sure to read Swamper Gene's post #47. 

There is followup here.

Tight inside-border technique with cork here.​
Looking over old threads makes me wonder - what happened to *Scafremon*? He was one of my favorite posters. Haven't heard from him in a long time now, and it's just not the same HobbyTalk without him.

-- D


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## OhioSlotter

*Viable?*

I've always made my own borders and have visited this thread before using this advice. I have successfully cut my own skid aprons out of SCX plastic 1:32 borders but they are alot of work and it makes a mess out of my basement. It looks like someone is now making these and selling on ebay (search for HO slot borders) - just curious to see if anyone besides me thinks these are viable?

The SCX work fine - but no cement median. These have got the median or guard rails

The pics are great.

Thanks


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