# OT: "Edith Keeler Must Die!"



## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Considering Spock's cold-hearted chastisement when Kirk saved Edith Keeler on the stairs, I wonder what might have happened if this episode, _The City on the Edge of Forever_, had been spun off into a separate series that explored the myriad possibilities of time travel and more greatly detailed Spock's efforts to save the future:

One thing that always bothered me about the episode was the convenient timing of that truck. Perhaps there was more to that incident than first revealed to us:










Upon close examination of this screen capture it is obvious that there is something funny going on:










It looks as though Mr. Spock "double-backed" into time to help history
along a little bit.


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

That green blooded.....


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## idman (Apr 11, 2004)

Lloyd Collins said:


> That green blooded.....



It's his revenge for all those arguments he lost :lol: :tongue: ROTFLMAO


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## REL (Sep 30, 2005)

Spock driving a sideboard. :lol:


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

PerfesserCoffee said:


> Considering Spock's cold-hearted chastisement of when Kirk saved Edith Keeler on the stairs, I wonder what might have happened if this episode, _The City on the Edge of Forever_, had been spun off into a separate series that explored the myriad possibilities of time travel


 
B & B had the same idea, 

It was called Enterprise.

I guess great minds think alike... :tongue:

It did so well the fifth season should be premiering any day now...


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## Samurai_Chris (Oct 11, 2006)

Just started watching part two of "A Mirror Darkly" from season 4 Enterprise.. 

Say what ever you want.. I think its a great show!... 

Canon or not, its got great effects, with a great yarn.. Its no Battlestar Galactica, but still a great filler when you have a spare hour.. 

Babylon 5, Farscape..... Now there are two pretty bad show's!

Chris


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

:lol:


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

I've got another picture I'll post as soon as the photo gallery is back on line.


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## sprue guy (Oct 1, 2006)

...funny stuff! How about McCoy driving the truck..."Murderers! Assassins!"


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## terryr (Feb 11, 2001)

How about John P running down B&B? And then pumping some 5.56 into them for good measure!


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

terryr said:


> How about John P running down B&B? And then pumping some 5.56 into them for good measure!


I don't want to be accused of conspiracy in case he actually does it one day.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

terryr said:


> How about John P running down B&B? And then pumping some 5.56 into them for good measure!


 I must have forgot to put on my alpha wave helmet when I came up with that. :freak:


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

sprue guy said:


> ...funny stuff! How about McCoy driving the truck..."Murderers! Assassins!"


   :lol:  :lol:


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

In another episode, Spock asks Edith Keeker to help him with his "science experiment."

SPOCK: All that I require is that you hold these two wires together while I turn this dial . . .


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Thanks alot Perfesser , I just spent the past 15 minutes cleaning of my monitor after spewing Pepsi all over it from laughing so hard!
Thank you for the *BEST * laugh I've had in a looooooooooong time! :thumbsup:


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Thank-you, good sir! More to come!


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Just in case the truck didn't kill her . . .


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

Perfessor, you have a twisted sense of humor!

YOU ARE SCARING ME!! :freak:


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

These are great, Lee! Nice diversion from the Dra-muh! Keep 'em c'mon.


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

:roll: :lol: :roll: :lol: :roll: :lol: :devil:


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Was it just an innocent fall on the stairs or was there something more sinister involved?










I appears that someone's burned out tricorder was used to entangle Miss Keeler's feet on the landing. If Kirk hadn't been there . . .


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

LOL :lol: 

Spock, murderer! Who'da thunk it!


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Griffworks said:


> LOL :lol:
> 
> Spock, murderer! Who'da thunk it!


For a Vulcan, he looked _awfully disappointed_ that she hadn't croaked right then and there.


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

More likely that his good friend is the one who foiled his plan! LOL 

Y'know, for a Vulcan, he's rather inept at it, tho. I imagine, however, that he's got a great, quick climbing learning curve.


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## CessnaDriver (Apr 27, 2005)

I dont suppose it occured to either Kirk or Spock to just be honest with her and say, hey babe, nix the peace crap until after the war, kay? were from the future, see here is a phaser as proof. 

Oh well. Less dramatic I guess. And Kirk DEMANDS drama.


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## BEBruns (Apr 30, 2003)

Griffworks said:


> LOL :lol:
> 
> Spock, murderer! Who'da thunk it!


Actually, in the early episodes, Spock is pretty cold-blooded. Remember, he was the one urging Kirk kill Gary Mitchell before he got too powerful. And in "Balance of Terror", he was arguing they destroy the Romulans.


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

What do you expect, he is only half Vulcan! His human half rears it ugly head from time to time.


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

BEBruns said:


> Actually, in the early episodes, Spock is pretty cold-blooded. Remember, he was the one urging Kirk kill Gary Mitchell before he got too powerful. And in "Balance of Terror", he was arguing they destroy the Romulans.


Right, I remembered all that. However, there's a difference between being a killer in self-defense and a murderer.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Spock is at his best when he argues for the destruction of others because it is the *logical *thing to do.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

CessnaDriver said:


> I dont suppose it occured to either Kirk or Spock to just be honest with her and say, hey babe, nix the peace crap until after the war, kay? were from the future, see here is a phaser as proof.
> 
> Oh well. Less dramatic I guess. And Kirk DEMANDS drama.


I think she was too idealistic to ever trust her for that long. She HAD to die! :thumbsup:


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## Richard Compton (Nov 21, 2000)

Great pictures. By the way, what's your guys' opinion on Ellison's contention that the "only" possible way of telling the story correctly is to have Kirk try and save Edith but having Spock stop him. In other words, Kirk, who follows his emotions would have "given the world" for love, but Spock, the logical one, would have stopped him.

I reject this idea. For one, it suggests that Kirk is governed by his emotions and by impulse and could not make the difficult decisions like this scenario required. Kirk, though human, is a heroic person. I can see him make mistakes, but this didn't seem like one of them. I also think that it takes a huge proportion of the drama out of the scene/episode....quite in contrast to Ellison's idea that having Kirk let her die robs the story of it's worth. He likes that Kirk would have sacrificed the world for love, I like that he would have sacrificed love for the world, so much more. I love that moment where Kirk holds back McCoy and almost can't bear it and McCoy scolds him, asking if he knows what he did, and Spock just says, "He knows Doctor." .....that's how the scene is right? Anyway, I guess I'm saying I disagree with Ellison's contention about the which version of the story is better, at least in terms of plot.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

I could have lived with the other ending. There are times in many people's lives when one attempts to make a big mistake and someone forces him to not make it. Kirk is only human and such a move by him would have been very humanizing.

Besides which, can you imagine all the talk THAT would have generated among fandom all these years?


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## Richard Compton (Nov 21, 2000)

But it's not Star Trek to me, I guess.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

^^Yeah, it's a big what if. It didn't happen that way so it doesn't count. Trek would have been changed somewhat if it had been more to Ellison's liking.


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

And don't forget the drug dealing that was supposed to be going on in Ellison's version. What next, Uhura having a red light on her door and Chekov or Sulu as her pimp...? 

So... No more kewel pics, Lee...?


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

I'll probably put a few more out. I've run out of resource photos so I have to get the DVD out and make some more screen grabs.

I've also been busy the last couple of days making up some MkII Deep Space Probe decals and some reproduction CDVs as well as priming and sanding a PL Klingon and Michael Keaton Batmobile. :thumbsup:


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## scotpens (Sep 6, 2003)

Griffworks said:


> And don't forget the drug dealing that was supposed to be going on in Ellison's version. . .


NBC's Broadcast Standards people (aka censors) would surely have nixed that angle. ("Mudd's Women" had the Venus drug, but I guess it passed muster because it turned out to be more of a placebo.) In Ellison's version it wasn't McCoy, but a crewman named Lt. Beckwith who jumped through the time portal and changed history. He was peddling an illegal drug called "jewels of sound." Sounds like an oldies collection.

Read more about Ellison's griping here:
http://www.amazon.com/Harlan-Ellisons-City-Edge-Forever/dp/1565049640


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

The drug dealing I'm glad they left out.


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

PerfesserCoffee said:


> I've also been busy the last couple of days making up some MkII Deep Space Probe decals and some reproduction CDVs as well as priming and sanding a PL Klingon and Michael Keaton Batmobile. :thumbsup:


You are a model builder,too? :jest: 

Looking forward to your latest. :thumbsup:


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

*Lightning? Looks like a phaser blast to me!*








:wave:


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

:roll::jest::roll::jest::thumbsup:
-Jim


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## Dr. Brad (Oct 5, 1999)

Love those pics of Spock in the truck! That's great!


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Dr. Brad said:


> Love those pics of Spock in the truck! That's great!


It was the only logical thing to do.


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## Jim NCC1701A (Nov 6, 2000)

Just as an aside, anyone read the novel *Crucible: McCoy*?
An interesting, poignant take on what happened when Kirk and Spock _didn't_ show up to stop McCoy.
I haven't read the other two Crucible stories - Kirk and Spock - so I don't know if they all start from that point in time.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Jim NCC1701A said:


> Just as an aside, anyone read the novel *Crucible: McCoy*?
> An interesting, poignant take on what happened when Kirk and Spock _didn't_ show up to stop McCoy.
> I haven't read the other two Crucible stories - Kirk and Spock - so I don't know if they all start from that point in time.


I've never heard of that series of novels. Fascinating concept, however.


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## Lou Dalmaso (Jul 13, 2004)

scotpens said:


> NBC's Broadcast Standards people (aka censors) would surely have nixed that angle. ("Mudd's Women" had the Venus drug, but I guess it passed muster because it turned out to be more of a placebo.) In Ellison's version it wasn't McCoy, but a crewman named Lt. Beckwith who jumped through the time portal and changed history. He was peddling an illegal drug called "jewels of sound." Sounds like an oldies collection.
> 
> Read more about Ellison's griping here:
> http://www.amazon.com/Harlan-Ellisons-City-Edge-Forever/dp/1565049640


and that's exactly why the changes TPTB made to the original story make it stronger, IMHO. Since we had just seen Spock recommend killing Gary Mitchell, then the emotional stakes are higher if McCoy is the one who must not only be stopped, but rescued. If it were Lt. Redshirt who did it, It would be nothing but an simple matter to kill him on the spot for the sake of the greater good of keeping history in tact. Something , that while regrettable, is in keeping with Spock's character at that time.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

The Venus drug was _not _a placebo.
Krik and Harry gave Eve a placebo _in the last scene only_, to make the point that she didn't need the actual drug any more.

Interesting, this same misconception came up on TrekBBS this week too.


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## Jim NCC1701A (Nov 6, 2000)

PerfesserCoffee said:


> I've never heard of that series of novels. Fascinating concept, however.


What, am I the only one who reads around here? 

Written by David R. George III for the 40th anniversary. His brief was to come up with three stories, each one focusing on one of the Trek "big three".
If the other two are as good as _McCoy_ then he did his job.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Jim NCC1701A said:


> What, am I the only one who reads around here?


I gave up on Star Trek novels a looooong time ago. The early published original fiction was really good I thought at the time--I was in my early teens. After reading many that came after during the mid and late '70s, I just couldn't seem to find anything that grabbed my interest. Not saying that there aren't any--I really haven't been looking since my college days in the early '80s.

Books I'm reading now:
_
The First Psychic_ (for the 19th century historical aspect) by Peter LaMont

_The Vampire Economy_ by Gunter Reimann (analysis of failing fascist economy in Germany written in 1939!)
_
Varney the Vampire_ by James Malcolm Rymer (1840s penny dreadful serial about a conflicted vampire--the basis of many later such creations)


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## Jim NCC1701A (Nov 6, 2000)

Well, I was just kidding about no one else reading :thumbsup:

I used to buy the Pocket ST novels fairly religiously, back in the late 80's. Then I got more selective, just going with stuff from authors I liked - Peter David and Michael Jan Friedman mostly - and avoiding fanish stuff like, IMHO, the Diane Carey books where she'd write herself in as the heroine... I gave away 'Ship of the Line', another of her novels. Did she even watch _Cause and Effect_ before writing that book?!? I don't think so.

Nowadays I only get the occasional ST book, if the back cover really grabs me.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Yeah, after decades of not, I tried to read a couple of Trek novels recently because I know Christopher Bennet and Margaret Wander Bonano via TrekBBS.com, and thought it would be nice to sample their work.

I didn't hate the experience, but it just convinced me I don't care to read Trek novels any more. Which is strange, I guess, 'cause I enjoy writing my _own _Trek fanfic.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

^^Yeah, Jim, I knew you were kidding. :thumbsup: I was just trying to emphasize how _far away_ I've gotten from reading _Star Trek_ fan fiction. 

Not that I'm reading stuff that's necessarily high brow (especially _Varney_--very good trash fiction but inventive and precedent-setting historically speaking in the vampire genre) but it is definitely different.

I'm glad you've found some _ST _authors you like. I agree with you about Carey. In fact, it as Diane Carey who helped turn me off _Trek _books.

Have you found any novels better than _Spock, Messiah_ or even _Spock Must Die?_ They're probably hokey by today's standard but I ate those books up!

John: Maybe you just write _better _fan fiction than the novels. Have you published on line at all?


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

I thought William Shatners book "The Return" was pretty good! Could have made a good movie after "Generations" IMHO
-Jim
P.S. I know he had some co-writers.


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## Trekkriffic (Mar 20, 2007)

LMFAO. Classic stuff Perfesser !


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## WarpCore Breach (Apr 27, 2005)

I like Diane Carey's books! Other than writing herself into a few of her books, that is. I always thought she had a good handle on the characters; no better or worse than other writers.

Several writers annoy me: one has the same basic formula she uses in EVERY novel she's written: The well-knit _Enterprise_ crew get into a huge bind that CANNOT be solved w/o the highly evolved/ultra intelligent non-human alien or Earth creature (who is friendly and likes humans) to save their sorry butts and all is well again with the universe afterwards.

(Actually, all the novels have to end that way. Not fair to single out one specific author on that)

There is one Diane Carey book I have thoroughly enjoyed: _First Frontier_, which is a collaborative effort w/ Dr. James L. Kirkland. It melds _Star Trek_ w. dinosaurs and the extinction event 65 million years ago.

Now, before you go "grooaaannnn", give it a read. While there are some annoying plot conventions, they're there for a reason. And despite some of the predictable elements of novel, it's a fascinating read. Even the obligatory run-in with T-Rex. Besides.... who knew that the Federation owed it's existance to that extinction event?? I certainly rate this book as one of my top most-enjoyable reads.

Other _Trek_ books I've enjoyed: _Doctor's Orders_, _Uhura's Song_ and even _Spock's World_ (skipping out the chapters of Vulcan history).


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Trekkriffic said:


> LMFAO. Classic stuff Perfesser !


Thank you, sir! I do it all for the fans:drunk:


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

WarpCore Breach said:


> Several writers annoy me: one has the same basic formula she uses in EVERY novel she's written: The well-knit _Enterprise_ crew get into a huge bind that CANNOT be solved w/o the highly evolved/ultra intelligent non-human alien or Earth creature (who is friendly and likes humans) to save their sorry butts and all is well again with the universe afterwards.


Oh, that _does_ sound absolutely _SICKENING!_:drunk:


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## Jim NCC1701A (Nov 6, 2000)

WarpCore Breach said:


> There is one Diane Carey book I have thoroughly enjoyed: _First Frontier_, which is a collaborative effort w/ Dr. James L. Kirkland. It melds _Star Trek_ w. dinosaurs and the extinction event 65 million years ago.


Been a while since I read it but yeah, it was a good read. And no annoying Piper character 
IMHO, and just off the top of my head, some of the best would be _The Final Reflection_ and _How Much for Just the Planet?_, both by John M. Ford, _The Pandora Principle_ (stayed up one night and read it cover to cover), _Strangers from the Sky_, and _The Romulan Way_. And the Peter David one that featured some of Pike's crew (can't remember the name of it though). YMMV 

Perf, I've never read either of those Spock books, sorry. Only really got in to the novels around the time that Pocket really started ramping up the number of titles being published. Which of course did lead to some mediocre books...


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

PerfesserCoffee said:


> John: Maybe you just write _better _fan fiction than the novels. Have you published on line at all?


Yup. Here's the only two I've managed to finish:
http://www.inpayne.com/trekfanfic/trekfic.html
Both were brainstormed with a friend.

Please keep in mind it's just a casual hobby.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

John P said:


> Please keep in mind it's just a casual hobby.


Riiiiight!

Just like making models is a _casual _hobby for you!


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## Jim NCC1701A (Nov 6, 2000)

John P said:


> Yup. Here's the only two I've managed to finish:
> http://www.inpayne.com/trekfanfic/trekfic.html
> Both were brainstormed with a friend.
> 
> Please keep in mind it's just a casual hobby.


Prolly never told you John, but I thought the _Brietling_ (sp?) story was great. Been a few years since I last read it.

And nothing personal, but I've never really been much of a TNG novel fan so that might've been why I couldn't get into the USS Wolf story.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Thanks Jim!


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## scotpens (Sep 6, 2003)

WarpCore Breach said:


> . . . Besides.... who knew that the Federation owed it's existance to that extinction event??


Well, it follows, since the entire human species owes its existence to the extinction of the dinosaurs. Without that cataclysmic event 65 million years ago, mammals would never have proliferated and evolved as they did, and we wouldn't be here!

And yes, I should have known better about the Venus drug. I deserve ten lashes with a wet noodle.


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## Jim NCC1701A (Nov 6, 2000)

John P said:


> Thanks Jim!


John, just curious but the mobile drydock that came to rescue the Yorktown (I think it was her) at the end of _Sound of Distant Thunder_ - did you have a design in mind for that or would it have been like the FASA mobile dock?


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

No particular design in mind, but I was thinking of some of the Jackill designs.


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