# Rumor control, PL/RC2 facts -- big first post



## Mike Warshaw (Feb 23, 1999)

There's a Web site called Myrc2.com. Retailers sign up and they get company news, yadda yadda. That site recently changed to say the refit kit should be expected in February. 
 

Now for the more difficult news. I have a 10,000-word transcript of, as it is officially known, the RC2 Third Quarter Earnings Release Conference Call. It was made a little more than two weeks ago between the CEO, CFO and president of the company, and a bunch of industry analysts who will spread the word. The point of such calls is to spin the official financial reports issued by a public company like RC2. It's like a press conference. 


What I'm going to do is list a few quotes and offer what I think they MIGHT mean. 

First: _The strongest category in the industry is the infant and preschool category. And this area represents about 65% of RC2's product portfolio... On the flip side, the industry-wide vehicle category is soft and we have been impacted. About30% of our business falls into that category.We believe that we have new innovation in our Joy Ride and our recently acquired Johnny Lightning product line for next year that will help reinvigorate the category._


I take that to mean car toys and collectibles are tanking, but there are plans for expanding JL into new areas.


_The second positive area that I want to point to in terms of opportunity for this year and next is new media exposure for both Thomas the Tank and Bob the Builder._ _We have a lot of new product for 2005. Pete will give you a summary in a little bit of our successful fall toy show in New York. We featured a number of new products, but our *key launch* there was our new Bob the Builder product line and we received a very, very positive response._



Throughout this whole release, these two licenses are talked up as oviously the biggest properties RC2 is going to push. Polar Lights is not mentioned in this entire transcript. It's the only brand that isn't; even Memory Lane is discussed.


_The third area I want to talk about is our strong platforms that we're building in the infant and pre-school play area. Our recent acquisition, The First Years, gives us a strong platform to continue to grow our infant care and play business._ 


Infant products are the next priority.


_I'm happy to report that our teams have been working diligently to *integrate the current year acquisitions* and that we're on track. We remain confident that *within 18 to 24 months we will realize annual integration cost savings of $10 to $15m* from these current year acquisitions._


To me, that means that PM and PL will cease to exist as coherent organizations. That kind of integration and cost-savings are all about mushing everything together so that nothing is independent and it's all run in a streamlined fashion. That makes it easier to launch new brands -- and fold old ones, since people are assigned to the larger company, not the brands themselves.


_We estimate that our cost of sales will continue to be impacted by higher input costs in the range of 150 to 200 basis points. And that's subject mostly to the price of oil._


Cost of oil = cost of plastic. 


_Additionally, we are working with our suppliers to mitigate, where possible, cost increases... *We are also closely examining, as we have for quite some time, our lower margin and lower volume skews so that we can eliminate no or low-profit activities.*_


This could be very bad news for any specialty or relatively low-volume products, and it's reasonable to think that from the point of view of a company like RC2, PL's stuff is very low-volume and very specialty. remember, PL was happy with any kits that made a few bucks because Tom and Dave did them from love at first, but had to justify them business-wise, and had JL as a cash cow. Now RC2 says just making money isn't enough. Anything they bother to keep has to be high volume and highly profitable.
 

Continued next post:


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## Mike Warshaw (Feb 23, 1999)

_Finally, we believe that in the areas or the locations where Toys 'R' Us stores are ultimately closed, our multiple channel distribution model helps ensure that we will reach consumers in those areas through other big and small retailers, and we know from our meetings with both big and small retailers, they are all focused on increasing their market share in that area. _

Well, at least they're still interested in smaller retailers.

_*...continuing decreases that we see in NASCAR products.*

_We talk about the kits that PL already had in the pipeline when RC2 took over, such as the refit and Scorpion. RC2 is obviously bringing out the stuff for which PL spent money on developing and tooling, although there's been no announcements at all that RC2 is developing new PL kit properties (it does own AMT, which is releasing the Star Wars stuff, right?). Beyond the stuff we liked, the Trek and Cap, PL was working on a bunch of cars before the sale, including, I think, some NASCAR stuff. If NASCAR sutff is soft, and PL needs to sell well to keep the brand going, oops.

_Selling, general and administrative expenses, as a percentage of net sales, increased to 30.4% in the third quarter from 29.7% in the third quarter of 2003 ...which, remember, has not yet been materially impacted by the *planned integration cost savings*.

_More about the way they're cutting staff to the bone and eliminating anything that looks like a separate division or company named PM.

_Now I'd like to shift gears and provide some early top line feedback from the 2005 Toy Preview that concluded in New York late last week... *Now this show was our first opportunity for RC2 to showcase both the Playing Mantis and The First Years product lines with plans on how we're going to integrate these brands into our consumer and product strategies.*
But most importantly, this show is also our *official debut of our 2005 product lines* and specifically, our efforts geared at the *second half of 2005*.

_Which probably means we've seen every announcement they plan to make for any PM (or PL) products through the end of next year.

_*Johnny Lightning goes large in 2005 with the introduction of the first ever 24 scale muscle car series.*

_They talk a lot about JL. They don't mention PL.

_*We don't operate our acquired companies as standalones*.

_There you have it. Plenty of tea leaves to read in that. 


Just for extra credit: RC2 had some 'splainin' to do, as earnings per share were down significantly from the same quarter in the previous year. They explained some of that by pointing to a one-time writeoff associated with a change in credit lines. Net income was up, but that was because of the acquisitions.


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## ChrisDoll (Sep 2, 1999)

Excellent homework, Mike. The last such Earnings Release I read (I have access to these via a massive service at work) was for Q2 and was a bit more optimistic regarding "new ventures" and mentioned frequently the need to mine new properties. This one is definately more pessimistic.


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## ChrisDoll (Sep 2, 1999)

Reading across the boards - you'd have to be a total wanker to think this type of information is, in any way, a bad thing.

No matter what happens to this line of great kits, I'm going to continue to live a happy, sarcasm-filled existance. I'm looking forward to the refit, and beyond that I'm investing in more tools for scratch-building.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

The upshot is, Tome Lowe is off my Christmas list.


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

Thanks Mike for the report.

It is hard to guess what RC2's plans for ST, but I expect more Johnny Lighting stuff, and AMT rereleases of old kits. They have the molds, why go to new stuff if you can save money on what you got in house. I like a lot of AMT stuff,so I don't care.

I will buy any ST models they come out that I like, and forget the rest. Why buy to support the company? Polar Light was good for us, and we got spoiled. Reallty is now set in, so we have to get over it, and go on. My opinion, like it or not.

I still want to see the 2005 catalog when it comes out. So enjoy what we got, and hope the aftermarket as alway will fill the gaps. I plan to scratch build when I can, but with my stock of kits, I will stay busy even if no more ST kits come out.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Ohhhhhh! I thought this was a political thread. I thought it said "Rumor control, PL/RC2 facts -- *bill frist  * post "


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## Arronax (Apr 6, 1999)

Mike Warshaw said:


> We talk about the kits that PL already had in the pipeline when RC2 took over, such as the refit and Scorpion and K'Tinga and Cap. RC2 is obviously bringing out the stuff for which PL spent money on developing and tooling, although there's been no announcements at all that RC2 is developing new PL kit properties (it does own AMT, which is releasing the Star Wars stuff, right?).


K'Tinga? Are you referring to the 1/1000th D-7 or letting slip a piece of information we didn't know about?

Not that it matters. Nice work, Mike. Sorta brings it all down to earth.

But let's look on the bright side. When RC2 has the sudden urge to repop old releases without having a large investment, they have 6-7 years of PL subjects to choose from.

That is unless the molds get lost in a train wreck. 

Jim


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## Ziz (Feb 22, 1999)

Honestly, Mike - THANKS. This is the kind of *factual *information I'm personally interested in. I'd rather have the honest, albeit negative, *truth* rather than a hopeful dream filtered thru rose-colored glasses.

I've been accused of taking this whole RC/PL situation harder than I should and worrying about things I can't control and overreacting and seeing conspriacies where there aren't any and so on and so on and so on.

Well, having been in sales the majority of my working life, I can understand - although not completely agree with - info like this that is essentially derived from a spreadsheet. Corporate types are like that - live and die by the numbers, that way when something goes wrong, they've got a non-human to point fingers at to deflect the blame away from themselves. It saves them from having to take responsibility for their actions, or putting thought into things, or making decisions.

From reading this, I wouldn't be surprised if PL continued to exist beyond 2005 as anything more than a logo to stick on boxes for the old same stuff RC has been overproducing and clearancing for the past 20 years, then complaining they can't make a profit on it. Any product lines they decide are "failures" are most likely because they simply over-estimated the demand and produced too damn much physical product (Episode 1 kits, anyone?), then turn around and say "consumer interest is down"...again, shifting blame away from themselves.

"The Almighty Corporate Spreadsheet Holds The Truth."

Yeah, right. What's that old saying, something about the relationship between figures and lying?


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## Steve CultTVman Iverson (Jan 1, 1970)

Ziz said:


> Well, having been in sales the majority of my working life, I can understand - although not completely agree with - info like this that is essentially derived from a spreadsheet. Corporate types are like that - live and die by the numbers, that way when something goes wrong, they've got a non-human to point fingers at to deflect the blame away from themselves. It saves them from having to take responsibility for their actions, or putting thought into things, or making decisions.


John, there is a big difference between what Mike posted and what you have been ranting about. You've been consistantly villianizing RC2 for purchasing Playing Mantis portraying them as baddies out to screw us poor little SF modelers. You make it to be some sort of crime.

Reality is, RC2 is acting in their best financial interests. That's why they bought PL and that is what will dictate what they do with the company. You can bet that they will do what they can to make sure it is profitable. And if they can't make money on it, they'd be fools to keep it going. 

So far, Polar Lights is still going. They've got kits scheduled to come out between now and next June. Not just SF, but 9 or 10 cars too. 

The full report quoted by Mike makes reference to a number of issues that affect the industry including closing of TRU and declines in NASCAR sales. All of this is out of the control of any of us. Not only do they fail to mention Polar Lights in the report, but there are a number of other company divisions that are not mentioned. This does not mean they are all being closed down. On the plus side, they do mention AMT and the Star Wars lines.

So, while 4th Q prospects are not compelling, there is still a lot of life in Polar Lights. 

For what its worth

Steve


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## Dave Hussey (Nov 20, 1998)

While this is not encouraging, I'd still be intersted in Dave Metzner's coments on this, if he feels that it would be appropriate to post them.

In any event, I count myself lucky that I got over my fear of resin kits. And it looks like I'll still have a big selection of styrene kits too, as long as I don't mind building cars and cars and cars and when I get sick to my stomach of cars, RC2 will offer some more cars!

Huzz


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## Mike Warshaw (Feb 23, 1999)

Real quick, for Steve and Ziz - the changes from the PL we knew are not RC2's fault. They don't know about us. They're on such a whole different scale, it's just like a different business. The changes are 100% the result of Tom Lowe's decision to sell, so lay it all on him. 

There's nothing evil about a business making a profit. It creates jobs and stimulates the economy, even if it means we don't get the exact kits we want in the future. The people there are not evil devils in burning caves, laughing and stirring cauldrons. It's reasonable to assume they have faces; they take pride in what they do; they support families; they have hobbies. It's easy to villify them, but cartoonishly unrealistic.


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

Mike Warshaw said:


> The people there are not evil devils in burning caves, laughing and stirring cauldrons.


They do that _after_ work. :lol:


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## Dr. Brad (Oct 5, 1999)

Mike Warshaw said:


> The people there are not evil devils in burning caves, laughing and stirring cauldrons.


That's a relief!


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## Thall10000 (Mar 31, 2004)

Just to be on the safe side, I think I will be purchasing as many 1/350 refits and NX-01's as I can. I just hope they do one more 1/350 kit at the least, hopefully two.


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## Brent Gair (Jun 26, 1999)

ChrisDoll said:


> ...beyond that I'm investing in more tools for scratch-building.


Which is exactly what I'm doing. I think I've bought two kits in the last year. I quite literally can't remember the last Polar Lights kit I bought.

All of my kit money has gone into tools for several months. With or without PL, it became obvious that models that fullfilled my wishes weren't going to be forthcoming.

I've made the move from all wood to fiberglassed foam. Below is my first attempt at a glassed foam model: Uncle Martin's Spaceship from MY FAVORITE MARTIAN. This photo is brand new tonight and hasn't been posted in any previous update (still in progress).

There is little chance that I'll buy a sci-fi kit again.


http://groups.msn.com/Margaret6547/miscellaneous.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=51


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

Great job, Brett. 

I'm currently in the process of assembling reference materials for what will be my first fiber-foam scratch-build; the spaceliner Rising Star from "Battlestar Galactica" (another subject unlikely to hit the hobby shop shelves any time soon). Actual construction won't commence for another couple of months, but rest assured I'll be bugging you for tips when the time comes. 

Congrats again on your steadily evolving "Martian" model, which is shaping up to be a swell rendition of a refreshingly obscure subject.


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## Brent Gair (Jun 26, 1999)

I must say that I'm EXTREMELY impressed with the glass over foam construction method.

I have previous glassing experience with WOOD. I used to build plank-on-frame ship models which would have fiberglass applied over the wooden skin. But this was the very first time I've used the method on foam and it's working much better than I expected.

If you note the cockpit section, it seems a bit "splotchy" looking. That's because portions of it have been hollowed out in order to accomodate the rudimentary cokpit and windows...so portions of it are transparent and reveal the interior cockpit framing. What I found so impressive is that, even when the foam was removed, the glass remains very strong and maintained it's shape.

And, of course, I'm using epoxy resin which won't attack the foam and has extremely low odor. I see the use of foam as a new staple in my collection of large model building techniques.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Damn, Brent, that's the second biggest clown shoe I've ever seen!


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Mike Warshaw said:


> The changes are 100% the result of Tom Lowe's decision to sell, so lay it all on him.


 I will simultaneously curse him and not blame him. We all have our price, and 24 million bucks is very close to mine too.

I thank him for all he gave us, don't blame him for taking the money, and villify him for doing it and ripping the rug out from under us. I'm whatchcall "complex."


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## Darth Bill (Oct 5, 2004)

Excellent information, Mike, thank you. I have no idea why those bozos over in the self-proclaimed "Science Fiction Modeling and Hypocracy" forum axed it.


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## Brent Gair (Jun 26, 1999)

John P said:
 

> Damn, Brent, that's the second biggest clown shoe I've ever seen!


That's why I put myself in the picture (actually, that's my homely twin brother "Brett" ).

I've mentioned in the various updates that the model is over 24" long but none of the photos previously posted have anything to convey a sense of scale. People looking at the photos and not reading the text in detail might well think they are looking at a 6" model.

The "airframe" is now complete and it's on to the landing gear. As I said at the start of this project, however, it might not see paint until spring because that's a big model to paint indoors...and nobody paints outdoors in Winnipeg at this time of year.


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

http://q.webring.com/hub?ring=startrekscalemod


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

John P said:


> Damn, Brent, that's the second biggest clown shoe I've ever seen!


Gawdammit, that's funny!!! :lol:


I had just looked at the photo when I read your response. I laughed out loud so hard that my co-producer stopped what she was doing and came running in wanting to know what the hell was so funny, and _why_ I wasn't sharing it with her!

She took one look and laughed out loud, too!


Thanks, John. We both appreciated a good laugh!

Oh, BTW, nice job, Brent!


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## NTRPRZ (Feb 23, 1999)

*What to do with all that cash*

Folks, I'm the first to claim total ignorance when it comes to business affairs, but I've got a question for those of you more savvy than I.

What's to stop Tom from taking all those millions of bucks and starting up, say Polar Lights II and continuing on with what we all have come to know and love? Unless there's something in the contract Tom signed preventing him from ever touching styrene again, what could his limitations be?

Jus' wonderin'

Jeff


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

Darth Bill said:


> Excellent information, Mike, thank you. I have no idea why those bozos over in the self-proclaimed "Science Fiction Modeling and Hypocracy" forum axed it.


You might wish to get your facts straight, as neither the thread nor his posts were "axed". 

Oh, and interesting that you see fit to use of the word hypocracy, "Darth Bill". I thought you were "just here to build models" at one point a couple years back. Seems you've changed your tune....  

- - - - - - 

Jeffrey Griffin
Griffworks Shipyards

* * * * * *

Star Trek Scale Modeling WebRing


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

Hopefully we will see many more years of Polar Lights products.

Please God....


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## Mike Warshaw (Feb 23, 1999)

It's pretty common for someone in that position to have a clause in the contract in which they promise not to compete with the new owner.


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## Mike Warshaw (Feb 23, 1999)

la de dah


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## Mike Warshaw (Feb 23, 1999)

Hey, how about some real news along these lines: Licensing. I heard someone mention that PL had a three-year trek license; if that's true, the three years should be about up. The Batman license was lost to mattel; now, accoridng to Playthings magazine, Mattel is the licensee for both the cartoon show The Batman and the movie batman Begins.

_"Mattel will be our first toy licensee to launch toys in conjunction with Batman," says Kelly Gilmore, vice president, toys and theme park licensing, Warner Bros. Consumer Products. According to Gilmore, the line will include basic and deluxe figures, along with a Batboat featuring a pull-out battery operated motorcycle.

In summer 2005, Warner Bros. releases the live action film Batman Begins and Gilmore tells PLAYTHINGS that Mattel will be the master toy partner. "Look for the complete line of Batman movie product. There will be a highly posable large-figure Batman and some action-packed powered vehicles," she says. Other key partners include Thinkway Toys for role-play and Art Asylum for construction toys._

As for this other business, you guys who are interested read what I wrote. I'm down in the basement taking a break from a batman project I;ve been noodling with. Jeff, whatever it is that's bothering you like that, brother, it can't be me. Nothing here's that important.


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

http://q.webring.com/hub?ring=startrekscalemod


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## Mike Warshaw (Feb 23, 1999)

Thanks, Jeff.


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## ChrisDoll (Sep 2, 1999)

Man, this has gotten ugly


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## xr4sam (Dec 9, 1999)

How can it be ugly? I haven't posted...oh, the discussion. Never mind...


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Ummm....


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Brent Gair said:


> http://groups.msn.com/Margaret6547/miscellaneous.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=51


Durn, Brent! You look enough like (a young) Ray Walston to really spook me out looking at your picture! How about putting on a silver suit (or tie and sweater) and raising your antennae for a pic? :jest:


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## jtwaclawski (Aug 7, 1999)

Man, what's with all the edits? What did I miss?


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## Brent Gair (Jun 26, 1999)

PerfesserCoffee said:


> Durn, Brent! You look enough like (a young) Ray Walston to really spook me out


I don't know why it is...but I always photograph about 40 lbs. LIGHTER than I really am! Seriously. I'm a pretty beefy guy and I'm about 20lbs. overweight right now. However, I seem to look like somebody who just spent 6 months in a P.O.W. camp whenever I appear in a picture.


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## Dave Hussey (Nov 20, 1998)

I would blame that on your lathe. You're making so many bowls that I suspect that each one needs to be tested with a full load of munchies.

Knock off the bowls!

Huzz


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## Steve244 (Jul 22, 2001)

Brent Gair said:


> I don't know why it is...but I always photograph about 40 lbs. LIGHTER than I really am! Seriously. I'm a pretty beefy guy and I'm about 20lbs. overweight right now. However, I seem to look like somebody who just spent 6 months in a P.O.W. camp whenever I appear in a picture.


I admit I was fooled by its scale. Unless of course you're really only 4 feet tall.

Any theories about its propulsion? I always figured it was the motivating martian inside that made it fly. It was merely a shell to protect the occupant.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Are ya make it R/C?

How much is an antigrav drive and gyro that small?


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## Just Plain Al (Sep 7, 1999)

Dave Hussey said:


> I would blame that on your lathe. You're making so many bowls that I suspect that each one needs to be tested with a full load of munchies.
> 
> Knock off the bowls!
> 
> Huzz


Now that is a novel theory


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

Steve CultTVman Iverson said:


> John, there is a big difference between what Mike posted and what you have been ranting about. You've been consistantly villianizing RC2 for purchasing Playing Mantis portraying them as baddies out to screw us poor little SF modelers. You make it to be some sort of crime.
> 
> Reality is, RC2 is acting in their best financial interests. That's why they bought PL and that is what will dictate what they do with the company. You can bet that they will do what they can to make sure it is profitable. And if they can't make money on it, they'd be fools to keep it going.
> 
> ...


*Good Ol' Steve..Always as usual, hoping for the best..And thats NOT a bad thing,mind you..However, its MORE than OBVIOUS, that RC bought Playing Mantis MAINLY for the JOHNNY Lightning line..Because that is what is the MOST Profitable..and if they were SO interested in PL, I believe they would have MENTIONED it somehow in a positive WAY in thier report..and they DIDNT...If PL does survive, ( & I believe it will)*
*I believe it will be NOTHING MORE than a "watered down" version "mainstream" model kit company:..cars, cars, and MORE cars, a BIT of Star trek ( BIG DEAL..Its been around for 40 years) and maybe a few military subjects..they will NOT put the dedication and LOVE into PL that Tom Lowe & Co did..& I believe..case closed*


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Zathros, how do you determine which words to capitalize? It seems to be totally random, and doesn't follow any speach pattern I've ever heard. And it give me a headache. .


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## flyingfrets (Oct 19, 2001)

I'm actually surprised that we're even still discussing / assigning blame / arguing over the Polar Lights sale issue. 

As soon as I heard of the sale I knew the party was over (Steve's optimism not withstanding).

I swear, I almost feel 16 again...Aurora had just folded and I was more interested in cars anyway at that point. Didn't bother with models again for 15 years. 

I'm rebuilding 2 Dodge Avengers now (notice a pattern here?). 

Creativity always finds an outlet...


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## Steve CultTVman Iverson (Jan 1, 1970)

Zathros said:


> *Good Ol' Steve..Always as usual, hoping for the best..And thats NOT a bad thing,mind you..However, its MORE than OBVIOUS, that RC bought Playing Mantis MAINLY for the JOHNNY Lightning line..Because that is what is the MOST Profitable..and if they were SO interested in PL, I believe they would have MENTIONED it somehow in a positive WAY in thier report..and they DIDNT...If PL does survive, ( & I believe it will)*
> *I believe it will be NOTHING MORE than a "watered down" version "mainstream" model kit company:..cars, cars, and MORE cars, a BIT of Star trek ( BIG DEAL..Its been around for 40 years) and maybe a few military subjects..they will NOT put the dedication and LOVE into PL that Tom Lowe & Co did..& I believe..case closed*


Zathros, I'm not really going to disagree with much of what you said. 

Polar Lights reissued somewhere around 40 or 50 different Aurora kits, pretty much the best of the lot. Far more than any of us ever expected to happen. There weren't more than a handful more they could have realistically done. You didnt really expect the Guys and Gals of the workd did you? Or Great Sports moments? If Polar succeded in doing as many Aurora kits as they did and still disappoionted you, then I don't think you could or would ever be totally satisfied. If not doing mediocre Aurora leftovers is "watered down," then you're doomed to disappointment.

Polar did the best of Aurora... and they did much much more.

Polar Lights, all along, produced more than just Aurora kits. Think Jupiter 2. Bowen Wolfman. Big Godzilla. Michael Meyers, Robby the Robot. The Trek kits are just a continuation of this. The Trek kits were on the Polar Lights wish list at least 5 years ago. Long before they depleted the Aurora kits. Its all part of the Tom Lowe dream/plan/love.

Yes, RC bought Playing Mantis for Johnny Lightning. No doubt about it. Its important to realize they didnt close Polar. They let the people go, but they kept the brand. They're continuing to produce kits. They've just run more Seaviews and Spindrifts. 

I always said that someday, someone would look around and say "we got all these AMT/Ertl molds, why don't we release something." Now they are doing Star Wars kits. At some point, someone will realize they can make money from the Polar molds. Maybe someone with a little vision will be able to make something again with the Polar brand. Maybe something with the Aurora "dream."

Then again, maybe it is the end. Maybe we'll never have another Aurora reissue. Man, I still have Aurora kits I bought 20 years ago I have not built. 10 years ago, I never dreamed I'd have a Munsters Living Room or Bride of Frankenstein. I do now. An incredible number of holes have been filled. Between the reissues, bargains on ebay, and some reasonable resin kits, there is not much Aurora I really want that I am missing. Sure I would have like to seen Dr J/Mr H or the Voyager. But if those are the only things they missed, then I really can't complain. Aurora got a good run.

Beyond next June, the future of Polar is a big QUESTION MARK. We haven't seen the cards in RC's hand. But you know what? That's the way it is with ALL their brands. They don't tell. And given that RC is still sorting out the Playing Mantis product lines, I don't think its fair to sound the death knell. Maybe we'll be disappointed. Maybe not.

Zathros, for you, Polar Lights lost its luster when they moved away from lots of Aurora kits. But that started some time ago, long before RC came into the picture. From a business perspective, it was inevitable. That book started to close long ago. Nothing lasts forever.

For what its worth.
Steve


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

PL should have started their Star Trek line by making the most popular subjects/scales first.

They got too damned cute for their own good, if the statements we heard in the past from company officials that they had total control of the subject selection order are true, yet they CHOSE to release the NX-01 and K-7 before a 1/350th Refit or TOS E.

If that's true they screwed the pooch with their smarter-than-thou marketing plan.
Maybe the great sales of a Refit or TOS E 1/350th would not have kept RC2 from making an offer Tom Lowe couldn't refuse.

However, at least then RC2 would now be looking at sales figures for the Refit and not the NX-01.

Moral of the story for the future(if there are any new future sci-fi model companies) - don't get cute when you buy a license: Make the stuff people want to buy the MOST *first*.


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

RC2 states on their web site, 

"RC2 builds consumer loyalty by fulfilling the passions of the targeted consumers with branded toys, collectibles, hobby, or infant products that encourage repeat purchases and are fun to own and use."

So how do they know what we want, as targeted consumers.


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

Steve CultTVman Iverson said:


> Zathros, I'm not really going to disagree with much of what you said.
> 
> Polar Lights reissued somewhere around 40 or 50 different Aurora kits, pretty much the best of the lot. Far more than any of us ever expected to happen. There weren't more than a handful more they could have realistically done. You didnt really expect the Guys and Gals of the workd did you? Or Great Sports moments? If Polar succeded in doing as many Aurora kits as they did and still disappoionted you, then I don't think you could or would ever be totally satisfied. If not doing mediocre Aurora leftovers is "watered down," then you're doomed to disappointment.
> 
> ...


*Steve, My Astute Friend*,

I agree & disagree with you..and here are the points:
Yes, I agree with you 100% that PL did for the most part, the very Best of Aurora kits that I could have ever hoped for..The best part of that, was how affordable they were and easily obtainable..Going into a hobby shop during the glory days of Pl's original production days, was practically like stepping back in time..It was a wonderful period for all of us that remembered, bought, built & loved Aurora kits..Especially since we no longer had to deal with the Frustration of dealing with the GREEDY kit dealers or had to remortguage our homes to get a Munsters kit, etc...I bought them in numbers, like an addict who had to get his fix. 

No , I did not expect PL to reissue the guys & Gal of the world, and certainly NOT the Great moments in sports, and I am quite sure you were attempting to be HUMOROUS by asking that question..However I'd HARDLY call the 2001 Moonbus, Or the Orion Space shuttle "Medoicre" that Aurora did, that I think would have been winners for PL, had they taken a chance with them, but in all fairness to PL, I believe the reason they were not repopped was due to licensing difficulties..And I had said MANY Times, in MANY posts, that If PL closed or ceased re-issuing kits AFTER the long box horror, and Irwin Allen kits, they would have pretty much fulfilled my dreams..& I am NOT that hard to satisfy, my friend..The entire point of my post replying to you is that RC (again) I don't believe will ever TRULY follow in Pl's footsteps, and that is NOT just specifically directed at Aurora Repops..One of the GREAT things about PL was ALSO the fact that thier Original subjects were TERRIFIC and far exceeded what we thought PL would do..My disappointment

with PL, was simply what they Thought "had no mass appeal", I believe they were WRONG in , since they issued repops that had FARR less "mass appeal" hence thier Failure to sell, yet they could not see kits that had they taken a chance with , that I believe would have sold better than the ones they issued in that case, & I am not alone in that opinion, & I do NOT specifically mean the Voyager OR the Jekyll & Hyde..And Lastly..I really HATE repeating myself ..BUT..RC is a TOTALLY Different Company than PL..PL was aware of US, here on this Board,,and DID on many an occasion, take our opinions & requests into consideration..RC is simply a "Numbers & Bottom Line company"..Do YOU, REALLY think that RC would have taken the TIME & Dedication to issue a VINTAGE JUPITER 2 from Lost in Space???..I think NOT.THAT, as an example, is the CRUX of the matter I am trying to put forth.
They probably would not even have Given it the most MINISCULE thought..
PL did , because that was the KIND of Company they were,They had the TRUE VISION..And knew what classic kits that those in our age category 
craved..

I dont believe that RC has ANY interest in how we think or feel..They will issue a kit, and if it sells, Fine..if it doesnt, then out of the lineup it will go..Thier "marketing " is still limited to "KIDS"..and I dont feel they have the VISION to notice that PL'S sales were geared to ADULTS from the nostalgia market..And thier REPORT reflected that..they Reran the Spindrift & the seaview, since They SOLD well originally, when PL repopped them..and that was ORIGINALLY why Aurora reissued them in the mid 70's..NOT very hard to figure out..
I too NEVER thought Id have a Munsters or a Bride of Frank kit..And we are all very lucky that they were reissued..& I sincerely hope I am wrong about RC..But judging by Thier report, & what they are coming out with in 2005, I feel , bears me out.."Star Trek" and car kits..(You, Steve, seem to think that the Star Trek Kits are the best thing since SLICED bread..yet they have been around practically as long as Prostitution..I prefer a bit MORE variety than a 40 year old franchise myself that IMO, has been BEATEN practically to DEATH). we need more car kits, like we need an extra rectum(no insult to those of you that collect them, I'm just pointing out how PREVELANT they are)..But again, if it sells, then they will make it..PL took chances, and they took them in the vein we all knew and LOVED..RC, I feel will NOT..NOT in the way PL did..So Unfortunately, I still stand by my original Contention that RC will keep PL..But it will be that "Watered down" Company with "mainstream kits " rather than those that we ( or I) prefer..
Yes, Steve..Nothing lasts forever..I just find myself wishing PL would have gone out with a "bang" instead of a "whimper" when they were sold..But at the risk of repetition, the _MAIN REASON _foremost on RC'S plan in purchasing Playing Mantis, was Johnny Lightning..PL, was just a MINOR drop of icing on the "die cast" car Cake..


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

John P said:


> Zathros, how do you determine which words to capitalize? It seems to be totally random, and doesn't follow any speach pattern I've ever heard. And it give me a headache. .


Sorry, John..LOL...between my OLD keyboard "sticking" and my new "progressive" bifocals...That I have to get used to..sometimes causes this..I will ENDEAVOR to be more "typographically" correct...:freak:


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## cobywan (Oct 27, 2001)

Zathros said:


> *Steve, My Astute Friend*,
> 
> *I agree & disagree with you..and here are the points:*
> *Yes, I agree with you 100% that PL did for the most part, the very Best of Aurora kits that I could have ever hoped for..The best part of that, was how affordable they were and easily obtainable..Going into a hobby shop during the glory days of Pl's original production days, was practically like stepping back in time..It was a wonderful period for all of us that remembered, bought, built & loved Aurora kits..Especially since we no longer had to deal with the Frustration of dealing with the GREEDY kit dealers or had to remortguage our homes to get a Munsters kit, etc...I bought them in numbers, like an addict who had to get his fix. *
> ...


I can't ever read this. Can you edit out the bold or something.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

cobywan said:


> I can't ever read this. Can you edit out the bold or something.


He'll have to break down into paragraphs for me. I read his other post but this one is making my over forty eyes (yes ALL forty-something of them) see a _blur_.


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## Edge (Sep 5, 2003)

Here's some good news: Oil prices have been falling
since late last month:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/prices.html

Edge


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## SFCOM1 (Sep 3, 2002)

Edge said:


> Here's some good news: Oil prices have been falling
> since late last month:
> 
> http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/prices.html
> ...


 For a moment I tought you were going to say "I just saved a bunch of money by switching to GEICO!" 

Sorry I could not resist! 

John Nelson
Glendale, AZ


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## jtwaclawski (Aug 7, 1999)

Chuck_P.R. said:


> PL should have started their Star Trek line by making the most popular subjects/scales first.
> 
> They got too damned cute for their own good, if the statements we heard in the past from company officials that they had total control of the subject selection order are true, yet they CHOSE to release the NX-01 and K-7 before a 1/350th Refit or TOS E.
> 
> ...


Face it. Playing Mantis was basically a small comopany. There is a logic to their releases. You and I may not agree with it but it's there. 

Stores like Target, Walmart and TRU are not interested in the 350 scale kits and since they probably paid up front for the product (giving PL the capital to go ahead) or committed to a specific quantity, PL did kits to put on those stores shelves. Why the NX-01 in 350 first? Probably because it's the current show. As for the D-7, I like having a 'bad guy' ship and a 'good guy' ship. I believe that's what they are doing with thr 350 refit and the 350 k'tinga.

As modeler's most of us don't think like business men. They don't see a cool kit. They see a chunk of plastic. Should they put out what we want and will buy? - Absolutely, but they also have other issues to address when considering product. You can put 4 1000 scale kits in the same shelf space as one 350 scale. They look at making major profit by volume sales. Now one would think that if they put out the 350 TOS it's gonna sell big time - and it will, but only at the begining. Price and home storage space is going to limit sales. How many of us really have the space to build and display 3 TOS Enterprises (2 pilots and 1 series) PLUS a Destroyer/Scout, Tug and Dreadnought? And at $60.00 a pop? 

My take is to be happy with what ever they produce. At least it's something as opposed to nothing.


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## DinoMike (Jan 1, 1970)

My view of the Trek choices PL made:

1/100 TOS E and D-7.... great! 1/350 refit E... excellent! 1/350 NX-01... meh. 1/1000 NX and the Scorpion... you MUST be joking. Those are. IMO, on par with the "Dick Tracy Space Coupe" repop.

As far as PL's future... I really, really hope this silence from RC2 doesn't bode ill for the future of the brand. I'm not reassured by their idea to reiissue certain SW kits... the Ertl vinyl Rancor kit was a great model... but it's not on the list... but that junk Death Star is? I do like what I've seen posted around as the "new box art" for the SW reissues... the thumbnails I've seen appear to be on par with Chris White's work. (Chris, was that your stuff?) I just wish what was IN the box lived up to the art. About the only kit I'm planning on getting out of that entire run is the Snowspeeder. If they had spent even a LITTLE on some retooling of the issues of the old kits (like the too-tall Falcon sidewalls & rudimentary cockpit) it would be a different story.

Another tack I hiope they DON'T take is to finish up what's in the pipeline as regards all-new Trek kits, then start repopping old AMT/Ertl stuff under the PL label. That will kill the brand faster than anything.. to have someone buy something like the 1/1000 TOS E, or the 1/350 refit... and then run into something like the Ertl Reliant in a PL box.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

jtwaclawski said:


> Face it. Playing Mantis was basically a small comopany. There is a logic to their releases. You and I may not agree with it but it's there.
> 
> Stores like Target, Walmart and TRU are not interested in the 350 scale kits and since they probably paid up front for the product (giving PL the capital to go ahead) or committed to a specific quantity, PL did kits to put on those stores shelves. Why the NX-01 in 350 first? Probably because it's the current show. As for the D-7, I like having a 'bad guy' ship and a 'good guy' ship. I believe that's what they are doing with thr 350 refit and the 350 k'tinga.
> 
> ...


The 1/1000th TOS E I understand, however I can't agree about the NX-01.
Just because they are businessmen doesn't mean they're geniuses when it comes to marketing.

The main reason their first 1/350th should have been a Refit or TOS E is simple - they had(have) a limited ten year contract.

That's a limited amount of time to produce kits. Opportunity time, to put it in business terms.

If they would have made the most wanted kits first, their sales and profits would have been greater, and they would have had more time during that ten year period to produce them.

They would have also have had more operating cash for future projects because of the increased sales.

It's not that complicated, make the kits people want first.


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## cobywan (Oct 27, 2001)

It really makes the most sense to produce a product for a show that is still currently in production. The NX-01 kit was under way before the rabble about how bad the show is started. I love the kit.

I could care less about the classic Enterprise. I love the Refit version far more. I was going to scratch build that one before the announcement of a series of 1/350th scale starships was made. I am thrilled that I don't have to do that one now.

PL made fairly good decisions as to Trek subjects. (Ignoring the Scorion of course.)


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

cobywan said:


> I can't ever read this. Can you edit out the bold or something.


Consider it done..look above..


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

cobywan said:


> It really makes the most sense to produce a product for a show that is still currently in production. The NX-01 kit was under way before the rabble about how bad the show is started. I love the kit.
> 
> I could care less about the classic Enterprise. I love the Refit version far more. I was going to scratch build that one before the announcement of a series of 1/350th scale starships was made. I am thrilled that I don't have to do that one now.
> 
> PL made fairly good decisions as to Trek subjects. (Ignoring the Scorion of course.)


You may care LESS about the Classic Enterpries..BUT statistics of sales showed
that even up to PRESENT, it has OUTSOLD any other Star Trek Kit..as well as the fact that whenever a classic Character was advertised as guest starring in a current Star trek Show..RATINGS SOARED...Bottom line is : CLASSIC STAR TREK SELLLLLS!!


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## JamesDFarrow (Sep 18, 1999)

1/4 scale Orion Slave Girl please. Thanks!

James


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## Ziz (Feb 22, 1999)

JamesDFarrow said:


> 1/4 scale Orion Slave Girl please. Thanks!
> 
> James


1/4 scale? Ppphhhttt.

Gimme 1/1 scale for subjects like that...


and make sure she's LIVE, not a kit!


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

Yep..She was a BABE...Green or NOT... ,,But I think that actress ( Susan Oliver) is no longer with us..


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Zathros said:


> . . . we need more car kits, like we need an extra rectum(no insult to those of you that collect them, I'm just pointing out how PREVELANT they are) . . .


*Ewwww!* Who collects _rectums?_  





:jest: (Or is that _recta_?)


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## tripdeer (Mar 7, 2004)

PerfesserCoffee said:


> *Ewwww!* Who collects _rectums?_


My God, you guys are great for a laugh every now and then!

Dan


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

tripdeer said:


> My God, you guys are great for a laugh every now and then!
> 
> Dan


That's Cause we are a FUN GROUP!!!


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## Just Plain Al (Sep 7, 1999)

I believe that would be _rectii_


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## cobywan (Oct 27, 2001)

Zathros said:


> You may care LESS about the Classic Enterpries..BUT statistics of sales showed
> that even up to PRESENT, it has OUTSOLD any other Star Trek Kit..as well as the fact that whenever a classic Character was advertised as guest starring in a current Star trek Show..RATINGS SOARED...Bottom line is : CLASSIC STAR TREK SELLLLLS!!


Well THE original kit was released A good ten years before any other Enterprise kit WAS. That effects THE total numbers sold.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

cobywan said:


> Well THE original kit was released A good ten years before any other Enterprise kit WAS. That effects THE total numbers sold.


I believe either the Refit or the TOS E would outsell the NX-01. There is a larger installed base of fans wanting in. My main point is that the sooner during their 10 year contract they tooled either the Refit or TOS E the longer they could have sold it. More units produced = greater sales.

I could see steady solid sales of the Refit or TOS Enterprise lasting over a 8-10 year period. AMT has proven that's possible.

I don't see interest in the NX-01 or Scorpion being sustainable over an 8-10 year period.


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## jbond (Aug 29, 2002)

Ah well...whattayagonna do? The standard marketing approach to Trek merchandise for a long time has been that, when you have a new movie or TV show out there to promote the line, you do subjects from that--and a TV series has always been considered to be more consistent, broad exposure than a one-shot movie. So that explains the NX-01 (which was probably in development well before people realized that Enterprise the series was going to be one of the least popular Trek efforts) if not exactly the Voyager.

I'm still stunned beyond belief over what we got out of Polar Lights and if we make it to the K'Tinga I'll be pretty damned thankful. If not, the Refit is still one of the greatest miracles in sci fi model kit history. And the C-57D, and Big Godzilla, and all those great repops. Miraculous. Am I bitter that it's probably all going to end? Yep. But I expected it to end a lot sooner! And my garage will be full of great big PL kits for a long time to come.


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

cobywan said:


> Well THE original kit was released A good ten years before any other Enterprise kit WAS. That effects THE total numbers sold.


The original Classic Enterprise was first released in 1966..So I think you were off by 11 additional years, if you count the "Topheavy" Enterprise D release as a kit that came out in 1987 ..As to your comment that That would affect the numbers:Maybe..Maybe not....but that STILL doesnt explain that EVERY time The classic Enterprise gets re-released, or released by any other company in any form as long as its classic..it SELLS OUT, and SELLS WELL..!


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## Cajjunwolfman (Nov 15, 2004)

Wow what a discussion. I have enjoyed everyone's input very much. If I may graciously put in my opinion.
The PL phenomenom followed the model industry trend. As the consumers grew more educated and selective, the complexity and cost of the product increased. I believe the largest group of consumers in this hobby are post 40 year old men who already have a house full of models. If you check out kits in the model store, Fine Scale or other well known sources of model industry information then you see the same trend towards larger, more detailed, more expensive kits. Hence NX-01 in large scale. Absolutley awewome work of engineering, marketing and a true labor of love. However I think the product has already tanked in terms of sales. I do a lot of window shopping at various vendors in a wide geographic area from North Carolina to Texas. Its the same everywhere. The kits are still sitting in stock. Even at the 1/2 sale for Hobby Lobby you can not give them away. My friend who owns a Hobby Shop only sold one....for $40. When the kit was new. Ask someone you know who sells them, how many they stock and are they selling?
The 1/1000 Enterprise was succesfull because:
1) Well known subject with large fan base
2) Small scale/less complexity
3) Very moderatly priced. 
The profits were probably good, and maybe the sales figures bolstered the books for the upcoming sale. But I doubt the sales of this item were enough to carry PL . 
As far as the upcoming retrofit goes, lets buy it, revell in it, and enjoy it. It looks like a tremendous kit. I think its the one and only that we will see in styrene. There is just no money in this industry anymore.
I work with a lot of big companies for goods and services. Big companies do not pay their bills in advance. Most of the time they do not even pay the full legitimate bill. Frequently the product is so heavily discounted the supplier is struggling to make ends meet. Big companies do not have to care. If you can not supply, then they just go to one of another 100 people begging for the business. Based on this experience, I cannot believe that TRU, Walmart, or anybody else paid for their kits in advance. Hence the 6 month to a year time frame to get your money could have created a tremendous cash flow problem for PL. 

I think Tom Lowe sold the company because events in the industry made it the only viable decision. The effort, love, committment, drive, ambition, and desire to found PL and make it successful are not something you just give away. I believe that man had and probably still has some part of his soul in that company. He sold his company for finances sure, but he had to let his creation go while he still could. Before it perished and damaged him in the process.


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## lonfan (Feb 11, 2001)

Zathros said:


> The original Classic Enterprise was first released in 1966..So I think you were off by 11 additional years, if you count the "Topheavy" Enterprise D release as a kit that came out in 1987 ..As to your comment that That would affect the numbers:Maybe..Maybe not....but that STILL doesnt explain that EVERY time The classic Enterprise gets re-released, or released by any other company in any form as long as its classic..it SELLS OUT, and SELLS WELL..!


AH But ZATH, You're forgetting about that beautiful TOS Enterprise that a Company called uh, "Unobtainium" (I think) WAS selling, Apparently this Beauty came with a Hefty Pricetag and a Self-Destruct Mechinism that caused the whole thing to Actually Fall apart!! But it probly sold Very well until word of mouth spread. Ah I'm just bustin' your Chops, Your Point was well taken. I do wonder though, What did become of the "Unobtainium" Ships? They looked Fantastic I think you could even get Diffrent Versions Like The "Deluxe" with the Lighting or for a few THOUSAND less you could get it W/O Lights! Sheesh Anyone here get one of these?

JOHN/LONFAN


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

I was one of the unfortunate many that placed a preorder for one of the lighted Unobtainium ships and never received a model nor a refund, despite many efforts to attempt to receive one or the other.


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## lonfan (Feb 11, 2001)

Oh Sorry Ace, Did'nt mean to open an "Old Wound" I did hear that the folks who DID get the Ship ended up with a Worthless Pile of Slag later on. They say it was due to something wrong with the Molding Process? Anyhoo Again sorry to hear that.Well If you feel like even discussing it, I'd be interested in Any details you might wanna share about the whole "Unobtainum" Nightmare.
JOHN/LONFAN
BTW I went ahead and "Preordered" the "Re-Fit" from Doll & Hobby in Deland FL. They're Saying they aren't really sure of the Release Date (Street Date) but figure on Dec. or Jan I REALLY hope this one makes it to Reality.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Cajjunwolfman said:


> As far as the upcoming retrofit goes, lets buy it, revell in it . . .


Shouldn't we be _polar lighting_ in it?




> . . . Based on this experience, I cannot believe that TRU, Walmart, or anybody else paid for their kits in advance.


I'm in the retail biz and from what I've seen of the way companies work, the manufacturers get paid up front or within a few weeks after billing the retail company. There's no kind of commission system based on sales, I'm sure.

When retailers are stuck with product and put it on 1/2 price sale, it's not hurting the manufacturer when you buy it below cost. The only time it's hurting them is when a product _isn't _ bought in large quantities to begin with.


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

*Unobtanium mess*



lonfan said:


> Oh Sorry Ace, Did'nt mean to open an "Old Wound" I did hear that the folks who DID get the Ship ended up with a Worthless Pile of Slag later on. They say it was due to something wrong with the Molding Process? Anyhoo Again sorry to hear that.Well If you feel like even discussing it, I'd be interested in Any details you might wanna share about the whole "Unobtainum" Nightmare.
> JOHN/LONFAN
> BTW I went ahead and "Preordered" the "Re-Fit" from Doll & Hobby in Deland FL. They're Saying they aren't really sure of the Release Date (Street Date) but figure on Dec. or Jan I REALLY hope this one makes it to Reality.


From what I had heard from a friend of mine that purchased his Enterprise from Unobtanium, The Material that the Enterprise was constructed out of, had reacted with the adhesive that was used to construct it, causing it to warp,crack at majot stress points, and even in many cases, fall apart, and even have the paints and decals break down..In short, they used an adhesive that was NOT compatable with whatever the Enterprise was molded out of..The owner of the company had told my friend that..Many returned thier models, and were promised replacements, once they corrected the problem..But the problem was SOO GREAT, and the majority of the run was returned to unobtanium, and a New run basically would have bankrupted them, so they decided to File Bankruptcy anyway, basically SHAFTING all those that purchased it, so anyone that kept thier ship, no matter how bad it was , at the VERY LEAST, had something for the LARGE outlay they lost..All that returned them..were S**T out of Luck..
THAT is what happens, when a new Company does NOT take the time to do the proper Manufacturing R & D..and since Unobtanium was such a Small & fledgling company..They simply could not afford to do a second run right, and decided to go the the unethical way of bankruptcy...


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## lonfan (Feb 11, 2001)

Nothing to say Zath But Thanks for the Info. Man I really Feel for you guys that got Hosed.

John/Lonfan


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Zathros said:


> . . . They simply could not afford to do a second run right, and decided to go the the unethical way of bankruptcy...


I'm kind o' glad they priced it way up there since it discouraged me from buying it. I might have bought a kit at half the price but I emailed them and they stated there were no plans to make it in kit form so I decided to do without, thankfully!

The people involved in that company have got to be some of the most worthless business folks I've ever heard of. How they could sell something of that nature that they hadn't tested is beyond me. (Thomas was, at one time at least, refurbishing one for the _Starship: Exeter_ series.)

There are (were) some places on the net that have described the poor execution and criminal (IMHO) actions of Unobtanium.


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## BATBOB (Jul 14, 2003)

How much were they selling for? There were several models. Just curious. Thanks...Bob


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

I think the baseline no frills model was c. $700.

The lighted one was $1200?


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## lonfan (Feb 11, 2001)

PerfesserCoffee said:


> Shouldn't we be _polar lighting_ in it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So Lemmie Ask you this Just How soon BEFORE a Kit is Released would the Retailer need to Pay for the Stock? I guess what I'm Really asking is Do You Think Retailers Like Doll & Hobby or Mega Hobby Or Hi-Way Hobby has ALREADY paid up front for the Refits? I know I would feel MUCH better about the Whole thing if I knew the Deal was already done!lol

JOHN/LONFAN


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Oh, okay, I see what you're asking now. 

There may be orders already in for the refit. Those are like money in the bank pretty much. The manufacturer can count on that money. He can look at that as a positive sign towards the future sales if there is a lot of demand up front for the refit.

However, the manufacturer only actually gets his money after he has shipped the product and billed the retailer (that is in, I suspect, most cases though some retailers may operate on a cash basis, lacking credit or whatever and send payment along with the order). 

I'm just speaking in general terms here. The model retailers may operate differently from other retailers but I doubt it.


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## lisfan (Feb 15, 1999)

PerfesserCoffee said:


> *Ewwww!* Who collects _rectums?_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 rectum !!!! dam near killed em


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## justinleighty (Jan 13, 2003)

I think with hobby shops it's a little different; they don't buy directly from the manufacturer, but go through distributors. Now Wal-Mart and Target may well buy directly from RC2, but my local shop buys from a couple of different distributors, who buy (presumably) from the manufacturers. 

The distributors also allow the hobby shops to pre-order, so I'd assume the distributors pre-order with the manufacturers.


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## flyingfrets (Oct 19, 2001)

Just out of curiosity...who would buy *ANYTHING* from a company called "Unobtainium?"

Uhh...wasn't the name kind of a clue?


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## lonfan (Feb 11, 2001)

flyingfrets said:


> Just out of curiosity...who would buy *ANYTHING* from a company called "Unobtainium?"
> 
> Uhh...wasn't the name kind of a clue?


LOL Dat's Exactly What I was Thinking Frets! lol UNobtainABLE Should have been their Moniker!!!LOL 

JOHN/LONFAN


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## schmidtjv (Apr 7, 2004)

As one of Unobtainiums victims, I really do hope that Polar Lights comes out with a 1/350 scale TOS Enterprise. Not only will it be cheaper, but if Thomas does the master, it will be far more accurate.

John


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## TAY666 (Jan 8, 2000)

justinleighty said:


> I think with hobby shops it's a little different; they don't buy directly from the manufacturer, but go through distributors. Now Wal-Mart and Target may well buy directly from RC2, but my local shop buys from a couple of different distributors, who buy (presumably) from the manufacturers.
> 
> The distributors also allow the hobby shops to pre-order, so I'd assume the distributors pre-order with the manufacturers.


Yep, that's the way it works. At least for toys, so I think models fit the bill.

That is one of the reasons that PL never did that swimming creech kit. They wanted to do it, but the distributors didn't have any interest. If the distributors don't want something, it is really hard to sell it in any quantity.


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