# oval brushless



## mbeach2k (Sep 14, 2004)

Ok need a little info, anybody with experience with 4 cell oval gearing.
Just bought brushless system and i would like to go racing friday, but need help on the gearing


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## rcgen (Jan 20, 2004)

I geared a 4300 Novak running with 19t trucks 100s 35-38 pinion tire size 2.25 able to check up.


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## David Washburn (Aug 26, 2004)

if i was u i would show up and ask people what they think


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## TOYMINATOR (Apr 21, 2004)

mbeach2k said:


> Ok need a little info, anybody with experience with 4 cell oval gearing.
> Just bought brushless system and i would like to go racing friday, but need help on the gearing


Talk to John Sparks he is running brushless and is in Big Rapids. :thumbsup:


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## mbeach2k (Sep 14, 2004)

went to gr on friday did a little test and tune, so far so good


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## TOYMINATOR (Apr 21, 2004)

mbeach2k said:


> went to gr on friday did a little test and tune, so far so good


WAY FAST???????????????


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## mbeach2k (Sep 14, 2004)

yes it is pretty darn fast


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## Promatchracer (Sep 28, 2001)

Hey Guys we will be running Brushless Pan car at the Soo Trophy Race on NOv 13th 
Come on up and have some fun 
AS for gearing I would think you could run what 19t pan cars are


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## Joe Novak (Apr 11, 2003)

At are local track,we ran four cell modified brushless ss-5800 and we could not keep the tires on the rims,the cars were very very fast and kept ripping the foams,it got very costly and the class died,sometimes the tire would just totally come off the rim,it was fun while it lasted


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## Promatchracer (Sep 28, 2001)

So Joe is anybody getting rid of there BL ??
I need a couple more


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## mbeach2k (Sep 14, 2004)

haven't seen that problem


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## Joe Novak (Apr 11, 2003)

Most of the guys are keeping them for outdoor season,we run brushless custom works sprints and they flat out fly,I think Tom Murray had one for sale,but he may have already gotten rid of it,if I find any I will direct them to you Casey!


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## rowdyrj (Jul 23, 2003)

Practice with mine today and all I can saw is (@#$$%) this thing is to fast. After I figured out a good to run in the stock mode. I'm just messing with a good suspension set up know. It's way faster than my 19T truck. It flys around the track like I had a 10T in it and its only set in the stock #6 setting (5800).


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## mbeach2k (Sep 14, 2004)

ok how many people are running 5800 and how many people are running 4300


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## rowdyrj (Jul 23, 2003)

I'm run a 5800 with a 4.20 gear ratio in our 6.5 class. The track has a 310 ft. drive line. With a regular brush stock motor I ran a 110/36-40 gear combo to get around the track.


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## bojo (May 6, 2002)

This might be a stupid because I am thinking of buying one But I dont know any thing aboult the brushless motor. can you dyno a brushless motor?


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## mbeach2k (Sep 14, 2004)

yes they can kevin did one it is on , carpet racing in northern michigan thread


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## Snookie (Jan 13, 2004)

I found a post awhile back, not sure where. It had lap times and race results comparing 4 cell brushless vs 4-cell 19 turn in oval racing. Hope someone can help.


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## Bob Wright (Sep 25, 2001)

http://triclone.net/roarfinals.htm


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## Snookie (Jan 13, 2004)

Thank you Bob.That is very helpful. Do you know which brushless they ran?
The post I'm looking for was on HobbyTalk. The member posted both A-Main results to show the something the same..


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## pmsimkins (Nov 4, 2004)

They ran the 5800 at the Nationals in West Bend. At that track with caps it was essentially identical to 19T. Indoors we are now running the 4300's on carpet. We are just a bit slower than 19t and a bit faster than stock. Probably more towards the 19t side of things as we get better with them. On flat carpet the 5800 system would be significantly faster than 19t. I would say close to full mod.

Bojo, you can't dyno a brushless currently and there would be no need to if you could.

There are also some results for our indoor racing at www.trackside.com. Basically the fastest guy in 19t did a couple 4.4's and I TQ'ed brushless with 4.7's. But keep in mind that the 19t drops off 4 tenths as the race goes on and the brushless only 2 tenths so things even out a bit later.


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## mbeach2k (Sep 14, 2004)

i beg your pardon but yes you can dyno a brushless motor!!!!
and they dyno out virtually identical to a 19 turn, wattage is a bit higher


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## pmsimkins (Nov 4, 2004)

I beg your pardon but!!!!!!!! LOL

How exactly would you go about dynoing a brushless motor? The motor (Novak) nas a sensor harness so no dyno currently avaiable can make it run. The only thing I know of that you could do is put your car on a Thor chassis dyno and dyno it that way. I've never know anyone who actually had one of those and they were made years ago.

What, I think, Bojo was asking is can you throw a brushless (Novak system is what we're discussing) on a Fantom or Turbodyno and dyno it. The answer is a resounding no.


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## mbeach2k (Sep 14, 2004)

all you have to do is hook up the brushless motor in the dyno, hook up the leads that come out of the dyno and are suppose to go to the motor and hook them to your wires coming out of the speed control that normally go to the battery. switch the speed control switch on the radio transmitter on and tape the throttle down temporarily. now wen you turn on your dyno and do a cycle the power goes thru the speed control out to the motor and the dyno will give you the results.


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## kevinm (Jan 16, 2002)

For the curious....


```
NOVAK SS5800 MOTOR SPECS (FROM NOVAK):
POWER RATING : 196 Watts
SPEED : 5800 RPM/Volt
TORQUE : 0.45 in-oz/Amp 
 
ACTUAL SS5800 TURBO-DYNO NUMBERS at 6.7 Volts 
RPM TORQ WATTS EFF% AMPS
29767 3.6   80	80 14.9
27893 5.1 107	79 20.0
26406 6.6 130	77 24.8
25166 8.2 153	75 30.0
24106 9.5 170	72 34.9
23062 10.9 186	68 40.0
22244 12.1 199	65 45.0
```
A Reedy Kr 10-turn I dyno'd the same way was only about 5 watts higher at 45 amps (but at a much higher RPM). Above 45 amps the 10-turn probably would have shown more of an advantage, but the TurboDyno won't go that high.


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## pmsimkins (Nov 4, 2004)

LOL yeah I guess that would work. It's a really bad idea, but I can see that it'd work. I don't think I'll risk the $180 speed control doing that. Also, the numbers you would get are completely useless for the sake of comparison to any normal motor. Here are the reasons.

The resistance would be way off. This is critical and it's why Fantom tells you not to shorten any of the dyno leads.

Speed controls do not feed the motor pure DC power. They switch on and off (even at full throttle).

So essenitally like I said there is no way to dyno a brushless motor (in a remotely normal manner). There was no need for such a snotty sounding reply to my original post as I was correct for the sake of what he was asking.


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## pmsimkins (Nov 4, 2004)

It must have taken some guts the first time you tried your method not knowing if it'd ruin the speed control, dyno or both. Especially since dynoing a brushless has no use whatsoever. Congrats!


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## mbeach2k (Sep 14, 2004)

the only person laughing is you, and if was intended to be snotty you would have gotten a lot worse, but i refuse to lower myself to that level so just get over it. the whole point is for comparison and for information. and as for normal that would be the normal way to dyno that particular motor, just because someone is inovative enough to figure out a way to do sometghing does not mean it is not valid, you need to learn that.
oh ya, and lighten up francis!!!!!!!!


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## hankster (Jan 1, 1998)

Well, IMHO, the Fantom dyno is pretty much next to useless anyways... but that isn't the subject of this thread


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## kevinm (Jan 16, 2002)

pmsimkins said:


> LOL yeah I guess that would work. It's a really bad idea, but I can see that it'd work. I don't think I'll risk the $180 speed control doing that.


Risk the speed control?? You mean you never hit full throttle from a standing start? Besides, all ESCs have built-in current limiting these days. The Novak will even protect itself from a locked rotor condition (no, I haven't been brave enough to test this).



pmsimkins said:


> Also, the numbers you would get are completely useless for the sake of comparison to any normal motor.


Since I also ran the "normal" motor through a speed control, the comparison is NOT useless. In fact, it's a MORE VALID test of what happens in the car.



pmsimkins said:


> The resistance would be way off. This is critical and it's why Fantom tells you not to shorten any of the dyno leads.


A) Not using a Fantom dyno. The TurboDyno doesn't just slam the power on 100% on start-up.
B) Did it occur to you that Fantom tells you not to shorten the leads to protect the DYNO from high inrush current?



pmsimkins said:


> Speed controls do not feed the motor pure DC power. They switch on and off (even at full throttle).


Full throttle = 100% on for any properly set brushed motor ESC. If it's switching, then it's not going as fast as it can. The brushless is constantly switching because it has to swap polarities of the windings to keep the motor turning.


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## philb1 (Sep 29, 2001)

*B/L dyno*

What he said!

Thanks for posting your results Kevin. Had considered testing my B/L in this manner, mainly to compare the 5800 to the 4300.


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## pmsimkins (Nov 4, 2004)

[edited] TOS violation... language


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## hankster (Jan 1, 1998)

The above message was edited due to a TOS violation.


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## philb1 (Sep 29, 2001)

Sorry if I instigated some angry typing, back to the subject of gearing. I have run both the 5800 and 4300 about the same rollout as 19/stock, any other opinions?


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## SLOWPOKE (Feb 20, 2004)

Phil
Are the 4300 brushless ROAR legal yet, I am wondering if they are going to be run at the Region 8 oval races at HobbyPlex in Omaha on Mar 4,5, & 6.
Jim


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## philb1 (Sep 29, 2001)

Jim, legal in 2005, am sure they will be run @ regionals, 6 of them in the area already.


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## hyperdriver (Dec 2, 2004)

Brushless is listed on the entry form for the regional race,so I dont know why it wouldnt be legal. Any one here seen anything on the new LRP system?? What I am really wondering is how it will compare to the novak.


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## rowdyrj (Jul 23, 2003)

Good we can get enough people to come down to Daytona in March to race them.


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## SLOWPOKE (Feb 20, 2004)

Hyperdriver
Specs on the new LRP Sphere ESC look good, there does not seem to be any available. I have been trying to order one and nobody has one in stock


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## hyperdriver (Dec 2, 2004)

Only thing I dont reaaly like about it is the price. 230 for the controller and a hundred for the motor, seems kinda pricey to me.


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## kevinm (Jan 16, 2002)

Reedy claims the motor runs like a 9-turn  , but this brings up another question. Does it meet the ROAR "modified brushless" rules? I'm thinking probably not, but they really haven't mentioned it in their ads or web sites.


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## mbeach2k (Sep 14, 2004)

i'm not posative but i beleive that only the novak units will be roar approved, and the novak units are so much less money


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## mbeach2k (Sep 14, 2004)

i've been running the 5800 since sept. and recently tried the 4300 in 4 cell oval
and by far is the way to go they are faster than stock slower than 5800 of course
and the tire wear is minimal to say the least.
my personal opinion that arcor should at least run a 4300 exebition class at all the races to see what the draw is and to get more information so that they can make an informed and intelligent decision!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Bob Wright (Sep 25, 2001)

Just food for thought Pat Simkins ran 1 lap slower that open 19T with a 4300 motor at the Triclone carpet track track yesterday.It's a 130 foot oval and we were rolling out at 2.40.Just FYI.


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## Robertsons R/C (Sep 12, 2002)

i found out today the controllers will be in the states around march.
Haven't heard on motors yet
lrp/reedy motor =255watts
Novak 5800 = 196 watts

I was also told the lrp controller can handle there motor like it is nothing. PLUS you also get the option of running brushed motors with out another speed-o. And they say it is equivlent to the QC2. 
So you figure price up it is very fair
QC2-150
Brushless control say-140
total-290
and you get it for 200 plus not bad price for what you get


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## DynoMoHum (Sep 25, 2001)

The specs they gave me aren't quite up to the specs of a QC2 ESC. They said .026 volt drop at 20 amps in brushed mode for the Sphere... the QC2 is .013 volt drop at 20 amps. In brushless mode they say .035 volt drop at 20amps, per phase. If I'm not mistaken, for a brushless controler to drive a motor, then two phases have to be turned on at the same time, this would give a total voltage drop of .075 at 20 amps. 

These specs are not horrible, but I think they were exagerating a bit when they said this controler would operate simmilar to a QC2 when in brushed mode...

Also... Are you saying the street price of the controler is going to be $140? Currently the places that list it and/or are taking pre-orders are asking at least $200 for the controler.


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## Mac The Knife (Jul 23, 2002)

The prices he gave were for seperate contollers,,,, compared to the sphere being two contollers in one package. He also left out the cost of the servo tape that you won't need to use for switching back and forth from a brushed motor, to a brushless.


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## mbeach2k (Sep 14, 2004)

once you swicth to brushless you'll never want to go back
i have sold everything to do with brushed motors
i have one controler one 5800 and one 4300 and thats all i need, no turning back
and i couldn't be happier i have time to enjoy the race day and work on my setup


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## kevinm (Jan 16, 2002)

DynoMoHum said:


> The specs they gave me aren't quite up to the specs of a QC2 ESC. They said .026 volt drop at 20 amps in brushed mode for the Sphere... the QC2 is .013 volt drop at 20 amps. In brushless mode they say .035 volt drop at 20amps, per phase. If I'm not mistaken, for a brushless controler to drive a motor, then two phases have to be turned on at the same time, this would give a total voltage drop of .075 at 20 amps.


Very interesting.... Where'd you see the Sphere specs? The Novak MOSFETS are rated at .0019 ohms (typical), which works out to .038V at 20 amps. You are correct that the voltage drop for an individual MOSFET needs to be doubled, so the Novak would actually be .076 volts. Seems like the only way the LRP could handle hotter motors is if the .035V @ 20A spec is a total number, because otherwise it's not any better than the Novak.


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## DynoMoHum (Sep 25, 2001)

I asked how many cells they would handle and for the the 'on resistance' of the Sphere over on LRP's international forum. Here is the response I got...

"it works from 4 to 7 cells. We never give resistance figures for our products, we always give the rating "voltage drop @20A". Which is as following for the Sphere:
- brushless mode: 0.035V/phase
- brushed mode: 0.026V"


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## DynoMoHum (Sep 25, 2001)

I should also note that I sent Novak a message asking for the specs for their controler a couple days ago, and so far have not recieived a answer... 

Kevin, where did you get the specs for Novak? I assume you took it appart and found part numbers and looked up the specs on those? Do we really know that the Novak controler couldn't handle the LRP motor or anohter of that type/wind? 

Oh, anohther thing Kevin... When you going to come race oval brushless with us in Lansing? My Novak system is on it's way, and I hope to have it in a car and racing this weekend....


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## mbeach2k (Sep 14, 2004)

which one 4300 or 5800


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## DynoMoHum (Sep 25, 2001)

I ordered both... my wife called earlier today and said a package arived at the house, so I assume that my order has arived. I wasn't sure what to put in there first... I was kinda leaning toward the 5800... but who knows.... I guess it's just three wires to unsolder and a couple screws to change it... but Hey... I sure hope that we can settle this to one motor soon... cause I really don't want to have to keep removing my motor since part of the whole reason for going brushless for me was so I didn't have to do work...


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## hobbyten (Apr 5, 2004)

*4300 or 5800*

hope to have enough for both classes at lansing this fri. if you don't like the idea of changing motors just pick up another car and set one up for 4300 and the other up for 5800 sounds easy but is expensive


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## kevinm (Jan 16, 2002)

DynoMoHum said:


> Kevin, where did you get the specs for Novak? I assume you took it appart and found part numbers and looked up the specs on those?


Lucky guess. :lol: Actually, the spec sheet and the web site have specs for on resistance, but I think they listed the resistance for a single FET. It should have been doubled. (unless the exact FET they're using is better than the similar one I found info on. The part number wasn't an exact match.)



DynoMoHum said:


> Do we really know that the Novak controler couldn't handle the LRP motor or anohter of that type/wind?


Beats me. I'll let someone else test this out.



DynoMoHum said:


> Oh, anohther thing Kevin... When you going to come race oval brushless with us in Lansing? My Novak system is on it's way, and I hope to have it in a car and racing this weekend....


I've been working overtime and on saturdays, so haven't been able to make it to Lansing for oval night. I also have retired from pan car racing, so when I come it'll be for Legends.


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## Mac The Knife (Jul 23, 2002)

Yeah Kevin, Put a brushless in a legends,,, That oughta make Colosky roll his eyes!!!


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## DynoMoHum (Sep 25, 2001)

Actualy... I think 4300 brushless Lengend would be cool... but so would a 4300 spec pan car class... Maybe even using those truck bodys... 

I still haven't seen the specs for the Novak at their site... I've looked a couple differnt times. I guess I'll have to go back and look some more...


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## Mac The Knife (Jul 23, 2002)

Specs for what, http://www.teamnovak.com/products/esc/ssplus/ssplus_esc.htm


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## kevinm (Jan 16, 2002)

With the LRP/Reedy system coming soon, this was exactly what I expected from Novak. All they had to do was change the software (and the sticker) and you've got a brushed ESC. The electrical specs are the same. Notice how all 3 phase wires go to the minus terminal on the DC motor. The LRP is probably the same. Now we just need Deans to come up with a high-amperage 3-phase connector to make swapping motors or running brushed mode more convenient.


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## DynoMoHum (Sep 25, 2001)

Now... if they'd just offer firmware updates and let the SS owners upgrade for free...  but that wouldn't make them any money... 

I think I'll wait for the fully programable features to show up in a controler... timing, throttle/brake curves, etc... This new Novak doesn't seem to offer anything that would be a competitive advantage to anyone who already has the SS... and quite frankly I don't see the ablity to run a brushed motor as being very interesting, but then hey it doesn't cost the manufacture much if anything to throw it in... One of those marketing things I think.

You know Castle Creations already has timing, throttle/brake curves, etc... in there 18th scale brushless stuff. It really is just a matter of time before it shows up in higher power stuff... Castle Creations even plans on making upgrades to firmware available, in fact they already have in the Mamba-25 product. They are talking about traction control and anti-lock braking... They have a HV car system announced with no release date yet... I like Castle's approach so far, and really hope they enter the performance 4-7 cell car market soon.


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## hobbyten (Apr 5, 2004)

*state champs race*

over the weekend we had our first state champs race with both the 4300 and the 5800 classes included there were 10 4300's and i believe we had 6 5800's. these were some of the best races of the day. in the 4300's ernie p. won by a lap on the field but the rest of the drivers put on quite a show in the 5800's it was one of the best races of the weekend with jamie hansen taking the win both ernie and jamie were running leading edge cars congrats to all the winners in all the classes i would like to thank nick and the hobby hub crew for putting on another great race day


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## DynoMoHum (Sep 25, 2001)

Actualy I'm pretty sure Ernie was running a KSG chassis with his 4300 brushless. I think he was running LE with his stock brushed car... I also beleive he will soon be moving from the KSG to the LE in his brushless... Lord help us if he's even faster with a LE and his brushless 4300...

Another noteworthy thing is that Walter Henderson TQed 19 Turn brushed class with something like 64 laps, and the TQ for 5800 brushless was like 63 laps. Now, there were only two cars running in the 19T brushed heats, so, he had a clear track the whole time, but then most of the 5800 qualifers were also pretty clean... but still, it pretty clearly shows that a 19T brushed setup can be every bit as fast as a 5800 brushless setup... and well, they are very close really.


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## Qual_shen (Feb 12, 2005)

Thanks for getting back to me Hobby


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