# Stitching Wire Rail / 18G Copper wire



## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Decided to see how the .020 X.103 stitching wire we're using compares to 18G solid core Radio Shack hook-up wire.

A few things showed up that surprised me.

Hooked up (3) 1156 style automotive signal lightbulbs to both.

18.36 volts was my test voltage.

I ran off 20 ft of both wire and rail,made them the same length.

Copper wire:dropped to 17.86 volts from 18.36 volts and supplied 7.21 amps to the bulbs.Lightbulbs were very bright.

Stitching wire rail: dropped to 17.90 volts from 18.36 and only supplied 6.09 amps to the lightbulbs.The lightbulbs were noticably dimmer then when they were hooked up to the copper wire.

The rail also warmed up slightly to the touch,not hot,but noticably warmer then the copper wire,which didn't seem to change temp.

Something for you guys to mull over.

My conclusion:stitching wire isn't a real high quality conductor,it's got a fair bit of resistance by the looks of it
Rick


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

Rick, Isnt it one of those trade offs we have to live with?

Stitching wire, in general, cannot be allowed to stain the product that as been stitched; say, after aging or exposure to humidity. 

A trait that we like....?

The copper although seemingly a better conductor would appear to be housekeeping nightmare due to it's quick tarnishing character and the propensity for verdigris under humid conditions.

A trait we like not so much...?


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## Boosted-Z71 (Nov 26, 2007)

Looking for test projects for the new load tester huh!

Good info, I also think that copper would really tarnish up, especially in a non stable environment. I have a routed oval that has a round, spring steel type wire, I have never had to clean it to get the cars to make a lap, it just works every time and is very easy on shoes in terms of wear. I wish I could find out what it is, as it would definitely be on my list to use in building a routed track.

Boosted


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

LOL,Bill,my rails are glued ,so i'm sure not changing them.

This was more a test to satisify my curiousity then anything.

I remember reading somewhere yrs ago that the average rail,compared to 18G solid core.
What the "average rail" is,i'm not sure,i don't ever remember reading if that was explained,don't even remember where i read the article
So i wanted to see how the stitching wire Todd and i are using compared to 18G.
Didn't come out as good as i'd hoped,aarrgghh,but not as bad as it could of been for it's cost factor,it's not really that expensive per foot:thumbsup:

If it seemed like i was bad mouthing stitching wire,i didn't mean it that way.
I was only trying to pass on my findings.

LOL,you should of seen this test B,trying to keep everything seperated and laid out on the cement part of my basement floor,with lighbulbs and meters clipped every which way,led to some mumbling:thumbsup:
Rick


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

Naw man, no way; I didnt see it as badmouthing.

Without questioning conventional wisdom and mad scientist projects, slot cars would be awfully darn boring!


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

What if you used copper wire on the supply rail, and stitching wire on the negative rail?


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Rich,if i ever do another track,i'll be looking alot more closely at using 14G solid core wire run alongside the rail as my lockwire and also as an electrical conductor to the whole length of the rail.
14/2 household wire isn't overly expensive for the amount of copper lockwire you can salvage out of it,if you're willing to do a little wire stripping
The first issue i can see though,is handling the copper wire and rail together,both on their own are a pain to work with,and combining the 2 and getting them into a rail slot,probably compounds that greatly,.
I experimented with the idea on short 27" sections of sintra,and that was my biggest obstacle,getting the 2 into the slot as a unit with-out one of them trying to kink
That's if i ever build another track,for now i'm pleased with this one,and this was more a curiousity test then anything:thumbsup:


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

Hornet said:


> 18.36 volts was my test voltage.
> 
> I ran off 20 ft of both wire and rail,made them the same length.
> 
> ...


 I know I'm going to hate myself for asking this question (because of my lack of electrical knowledge), but....

I was under the impression that the amount of amps at the start of a circuit equaled the amount of amps at the end of a circuit. If the power source was the same for both the wire and rail, then the input voltage and amps were equal. The only variable was the resistance of the wire and rail. And I thought the resistance only affected the voltage.

I know this is going to lead to more aspirin taking....

Thanks...Joe


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

Rick, i've some more wire for you to try. They sent me the wrong stuff when I first ordered the stitching wire. I don't remember the size off the top of my head but it's round stitching wire if I'm not mistook.


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Hokay bring some out with you Todd.

Joe,as far as i know both should drop under load due to resistance.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

> i'll be looking alot more closely at using 14G solid core wire run alongside the rail as my lockwire and also as an electrical conductor to the whole length of the rail.


Rick, this sounds interesting from a current perspective since it would be like having a continuous jumper system. Under ideal environmental conditions this would work but in practical use it would likely be a problem over time because of galvanic, or bimetallic, corrosion. In the presence of humidity and moisture the bimetallic junction would cause the rail to corrode. The degree and rate of corrosion would be dependent on the humidity and moisture levels, so folks in Phoenix may be less concerned than say folks in Seattle. Something to think about. It may even be worth building a prototype and subjecting it to the same environmental and cleaning regimen that you use with your regular track to see what the corrosive effects are over time.

I have some personal experience with this effect from my days of working in a marine environment because saltwater spray forms a perfect electrolyte for galvanic corrosion topside. Here's an article that discusses this topic in more detail: http://www.npl.co.uk/upload/pdf/bimetallic_20071105114556.pdf


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## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

AFXtoo, makes a great point and one to consider. corrosion is our biggest enemy and halting it seems futile!


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

*Rick and Rick - input please*

So, Hornet and Rick Carter are using copper wire as jumpers to wire their tracks. Have you guys seen any kind of galvanic corrosion yet? Or corrosion of any kind, particularly of the copper. Rick (Hornet) I know your track is brand new and in a pretty dry environment so I wouldn't expect anything on yours yet. How about you Rick (Carter)? Your environment probably has a higher humidity. How old is your track? Do you have any corrosion occurring at your jumpers? Just curious.

Todd


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

Here's a second question. If you did use the copper wire as your lock wire, would you be able to seal it into the slot with glue or paint of some kind (on top of the wire)? Would this reduce or eliminate verdigris. It would be sealed on the top. Would MDF or Sintra seal it enough to prevent oxidation? Not necessarily galvanic corrosion but oxidation? If you had some kind of plastic paint you could use it for lane colours as well.


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## Rick Carter (Dec 2, 2008)

Toddinator,

No corrosion and all is well in the Carter Camp. I do clean my taps and try to stay on top of things -although Rick has pictures of my dry spell.

I am in the process of treating my taps with Conducto Lube just to prevent any ill effects down the line.

I'm going to send it up after I hit my track with it because I'll have way more than I'll ever need.


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

Thanks Rick. How long have you been using copper taps?


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

I'd thought about the corrosion element.
But if you have an interferance fit between the rail and copper wire,i wondered if it might cut off enough oxygen to prevent corrision,then i also thought about electrolylis between the 2 dissimiliar metals,and i wondered if railzip,or conducta style lubes might prevent or slow that from happening..

Ricks taps aren't solder'd to his rails,i've been after him to look things over closely with a decent magnifying glass,for a real close inspection:thumbsup:


Al,you bring up a good point,i have a piece already assembled with rail and 14G lockwire.
I'm not sure how to go about giving it a continous salt test,but i could mix up a salt spray solution in a spray bottle and give it a spray.
I'm not sure how to speed up the process ,but i'll spray the piece later this afternoon,and at least get some sort of test going on it.

I only tried the idea to see if it could be done,and it appears to be do-able,but it'll take some s'perimenting if it's applied to a whole track.
Rick


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## Rick Carter (Dec 2, 2008)

Toddster,

For 2 years. I like the look of them better than how I see most tracks whose taps are soldered. Maybe those doing the soldering aren't as anal as me in being neat???


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

A good soldered joint would eliminate the corrosion problem. 

A bit of trivia: In fact, the US Navy for a long time was "bolting/riveting" aluminum superstructures on steel hulled warships to save topside weight and they ran into into major corrosion problems. As it turns out, aluminum superstructures turned out to be a bad idea for both fire protection and shock/damage protection and they went back to all steel construction. Before they returned to all-steel that they did reconstruct at least one ship that had a special alloy material that allowed welding to steel on one side and welding to aluminum on the other side. This solved the galvanic corrosion problem. A few inches of kevlar armor on the inside of the aluminum provided the required fire/shock protection while saving weight over a conventional steel superstructure. Later warship designs reduced the size and bulkiness of the superstructure to allow a return to the better all-steel construction. If you want to see what became of the vast majority of the steel+aluminum warships search for "sinkex" on YouTube.


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Started a corrosion test,not sure how it'll work,but it's the best i could do with-out the boss kicking me out to the doghouse.

I used tape and divided the chunk of sintra i have that has copper wire as the lockwire into 5 sections.

Then i made small puddles out of differant liquid combo's on the rail and lockwire.

Puddle #1: Warm salt water.

#2: Vinegar

#3:Windex

#4:Salt water and vinegar mix

#5:Salt water / vinegar and windex.

I was figuring on trying to keep the puddles wet for a week or so,then i'll pull the rail out and see how it looks.
If anybodies got any ideas for upping the anti for the corrosion test,i'm open to ideas:thumbsup:

Do you guys think a week is long enough,or should it be longer


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

I'm thinking longer. Do you have a control? No liquid? Just the humidity in the air? Just don't breathe or fart around it. That would contaminate the sample.

I think AFXtoo has it. Kevlar Armour for lock wire!

Rick C. Thanks for the update. Do you see anything happening between those two metals? Is the copper oxidizing at all? 

Todd


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

Rick, here's the other stitching wire I have. It's 25 thou in diameter. Shiny silver stuff. That's all I know about it at the moment. When I ordered the flat stitching wire they sent me this by mistake. Told me to keep it and then sent the right stuff.


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

I'm not one of them....but a lotta guys use 409 Rick...probably the windex is close enough though.


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Looks like it'll fit my welder:thumbsup:.

Bring it out with you Todd and we'll give it a test.

Is there any specs on it.

Lyle looked into mig wire quite a few years back,i forget why we didn't preruse it any farther,and it'd slipped my mind till now.
I have .025" and .035" unshielded mig wire, we can give it a test to,if you want.


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

I didn't have any 409 on hand,but i'd thought about it.

I'll try to get some tomorrow Bill,as i figure it should be included too.

While i'm out shopping for 409,anything else you guys want me to throw onto the test section,fire away,and i'll see if i can include it

The salt solution mixes are already turning the copper slightly green,while the vinegar solutions are pulling something out of the copper that's staining the sintra,so far that's all i've been able gather up

Rick


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## Rick Carter (Dec 2, 2008)

Toddinator,

I threw a change-up and didn't buy the Conducto Lube but instead, the Cool-Amp. It's a silver coating poweder and I'm going to coat my taps with it. Too bad I don't want to expend the energy to push them all up, clean and coat them.

I know that my stunt double Rick would, but not a chance here -LOL!

I'll shoot it up when I'm done. I'm not sure how much is needed yet.


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

Rick Carter said:


> Toddinator,
> 
> I threw a change-up and didn't buy the Conducto Lube but instead, the Cool-Amp. It's a silver coating powder and I'm going to coat my taps with it. Too bad I don't want to expend the energy to push them all up, clean and coat them.
> 
> I know that my stunt double Rick would, but not a chance here -LOL!


HA!



> I'll shoot it up when I'm done. I'm not sure how much is needed yet.


Rick, do you even need anything? After a couple of years you'd think that if it was going to corrode you'd know it by now. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But if you're doing it, let us know how it works.


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Rick,i never ran into cool-amp,now you've got me curious,lol.

Bill,i'm gonna have to dig harder for 409,i couldn't find it today,but i did grab some CLR and some Spray Nine,and they're in the mix now.

Todd:Lyle donated some .0625 " unshielded mig wire for a load test,it might be worth looking into it a little more.
I know a guy who's sitting on a 60lb roll of it:wave:
Rick W


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

Rick, how's that different than what Ted was using? How'd that stuff test out? Do you remember?


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

We only did the blower motor test on it last year,remember it was a cold and windy day.

I was thinking of getting Ted to send a 20 ft chunk of it down,and we'd re-test Kihm's rail where it's warm,and under a little better control.


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## Rick Carter (Dec 2, 2008)

Todd,

You're right but you know that we ALWAYS just have to do something when we have nothing but time on our hands. 

I hope that it doesn't turn out like some of my races where the car is hooked and I JUST have to make it a little better and then wind up F'ing things up -LOL!

I'm definitely going practice on a piece of wire first to see how it turns out.


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Rick is this the stuff

http://www.cool-amp.com/cool_amp.html


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Wasn't overly happy with the way i did the first test,it was a bit rushed,poorly set-up,and Joe got me thinking:thumbsup:.

Set-up 5 meters for the test,(3) with alligator clips,and (3) 1156 lightbulbs with alligator clips.

I did volts in / volts out /amp draw in / amp draw out before bulbs and amp draw out after the bulbs ,and i also ohmed them with my good OTC meter which is self zero'ing 

Everything was cut to the same length,approx. 20 ft,and all layed on my cement basement floor,to keep the temps fairly consistent.

The power supply was set at 18.05 volts for the whole test,after setting it,i left it alone

Tested the 7 differant wires and rail listed below

: Radio Shack 18G solid core hook-up wire.

: 0.020" X 0.103" listed size (i measure it at 0.019" X 0.99") stitching wire.

: 14/2 household copper wire

: 0.0625" Lincoln Electric Super Arc mig wire

:18G stranded wire

:14G stranded wire

:12G stranded wire


Test numbers below:

18G solid core wire 

: 0 ohms on 20 ft

:17.61 input volts 
:16.59 output volts

:1.02 volt drop

:6.90 input amps 
:6.90 output amps.

:wire stayed cool,i couldn't detect any heat change
:lightbulbs were very bright


0.020" stitching wire:

:bounced between .7 and .8 ohms

:17.73 input volts
:12.06 output volts

:5.67 volt drop

:5.83 input amps
:5.83 output amps

:rail started to have a very noticable rise in temp during test
: lightbulbs were quite a bit dimmer then they were on 18G test


14/2 Household wire:

:0.00 ohms

:17.60 input volts
:17.20 output volts

:0.4 volt drop

:7.06 input amps
:7.06 output amps

:no change in wire temp and bulbs were very bright


0.0625" mig wire:

:0.9 ohms

:17.76 input volts
:12.06 output volts

:5.7 volt drop

:5.8 input amps
:5.8 output amps 

:noticable rise in wire temp,and the bulbs were quite dim again.
:it seems virtually the same as the stitching wire under load


18G stranded wire:

:0 ohms on my meters,lol

:17.62 input volts
:16.67 output volts

:0.95 volt drop

:6.94 input amps
:6.94 output amps

Bulbs were very bright,and no measurable rise in wire temp

14G stranded wire:

:0 ohms

:17.62 input volts
:17.19 output volts

:.043 volt drop

:7.06 input amps
:7.06 output amps

:same as above,bright bulbs,no temp change

12G stranded:

:0 ohms

:17.64 input volts
:17.35 output volts

:0.29 volt drop

:7.10 input amps
:7.10 output amps

:bright bulbs ,no change in wire temp

.025" Round Stitching Wire:

: 2.7 ohms 

:18.20 input volts

:5.70 output volts

:2.8 input amps

:2.8 output amps

Bulbs were very dim,and wire got quite hot during test.
Not really a feasable rail alternative in my opinion.

Joe: you're right,the amps stayed the same on both ends of the load,just the volts dropped

Then did a rude and crude finger pull comparision test using a Neo bar magnet.

The mig wire generates slightly more magnetic pull then the stitching wire does.
Not much ,but a little more.

And that was my afternoon project,hope the info was somewhat useful:wave:
Now i'm gonna go clean up my mess and run some cars,yee-ha
Rick


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## Rick Carter (Dec 2, 2008)

Slickety Rickety,

Yup-Yup, dats it! I should have it by Tuesday I guess.

The ambassador of HO is signing off. Over and Out! LOL!


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

Hey can you guys please stop posting stuff. How am I supposed to get any work done on the computer if I have to keep checking in here to see if Hornet, the Envoy Extraordinaire and Ambassador Plenipotentiary of HO and other members of the proletariate keep posting little nuggets of wisdom and information that may pertain to the two tracks I (sort of) have under construction at the moment? Sheesh! :wave:


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

Hornet said:


> ...and Joe got me thinking.


Really? Usually I just get people to boo and throw things.

My electrical knowledge is pretty limited, but the one rule I remember is amps in equals amps out. This was a good test, thanks for taking the time and posting the results. It certainly looks like you get quite a voltage drop with the stiching wire. I guess to overcome the resistance you'd have to tap it every 5-10 feet.

If you get the time and feel like setting up again, might be interesting to see how long a stretch you can go with the stiching wire before you get significant voltage loss. Since your track uses stiching wire (I believe), this might be important info for you.

Now, I wonder how braid would stack up to the copper wire? Hummmmm

Joe


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## Rick Carter (Dec 2, 2008)

You know that we dont have a life Toddster. And mines was done while I was at the Movie Theater as I was sending pictures and sending emails ta ya boy.


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

You guys bust me up,lol:wave:

LOL,i'm doing this more for Todd and you guys here on HT.
My tracks built,and i ain't changing it now,that's like work,i'm dead set against work,lazy that's my middle name,lol.

Jeez Joe,you don't ask for much,lol.
I don't know if i got enough wooden stools to go much longer on the wire run.
You should see the way i use them to keep the bare wire stuff seperated,lol.

Todd's gonna bring some stuff out to test inawhile,maybe when he's here and i got another set of hands available,i'll see what i can do.

Anybody got any wooden stools they're not using,lol


Darn,i don't have any braid on hand,phew,lol (as he wipes the sweat off his brow)

Rick


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

Rick, I think Ted's got (or is getting) some braid. Tell him the details and maybe he could run your test up north. Might be worth retesting Khim's wire too eh.


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## Tsooko (Oct 15, 2009)

Hi guys. 
You got too much time. LOL!
I can send you some of Kihms wire to test and I also got some of the same size stiching wire that is copper coated. I actualy used it on the Suzuka track ay my place. I found the track needed sevice after only a couple of days being left alone. It took several laps of pushing the cars about to get them going well. Not fun. 
Yes I do have some 1/4" braid but that stuff is very expensive. We can talk about that. 
Interesting tests you got going there.:thumbsup:

Cheers Ted


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Morning ya old bandit,i was wondering when you were gonna show up,lol:wave:.
How's things up North,you guys got lots of snow by the looks of it,suns shining down here and it's 50F lol:wave:

Ted if you got enough of Kihms rail on hand,i'd get about a 20 ft piece if you want to me to give it a test.

I wrote the stuff off maybe a little fast last fall,i think it's worth maybe re-visiting Kihms stuff and re-testing it.

Keep your braid Ted,as i know how expensive it is.
If anybody wants braid tested,somebody send me some,and i'll test it for you guys here on HT.:thumbsup:
Rick


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

lol Rick you knew this would drag me out didn't ya 

For the most part your observations are exactly what would be expected, copper is generally a better conductor than most alloys that were not designed with conductivity in mind. But....a couple things make me go hmmmmm.

First noticable question mark would be meter accuracy. 20' of 18AWG should show around .12 +/- ohms resistance, not 0.

Temp coefficient - many alloys beat copper here. Not sure of the temp of your basement floor but testing like this should be done at a "normal operating temp" like 68 degrees.

Also, rather than use light bulbs, why not use resistors? This way you could easily compare your results to calculated expectations across a wide and realistic range. Results at say 1 maybe 2 amps would be much more meaningful, a split-second 5 amp spike from a dead stopped car is only a problem if the car doesn't move. And if you're running cars that pull 5A running...well, your name must be Rick lol.

For our purposes it's really all about trade-offs here and there. Bill is right about stitching wire, galvanized steel is used specifically for it's non-corrosive properties because it is often used in clothing and food industries and it is very cost effective. This serves "us" well and for our purposes, it is nearly identical if not exactly the same type of mild steel that was used for HO rails by all the major manufacturers. Non-corrosive with decent electrical properties for a non-copper "wire". The term "stitching wire" has nothing to do with the material it's just what it's being used for.


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

Good to here from you Gene. Welcome back. Was talking with Rick last week and the thing that came up was, if you have you power taps evenly spaced on all lanes then everyone is playing on an even field. If we all lose a half a volt or whatever then it makes no never mind as we are all losing it evenly. You're right about the stitching wire. It works well. All the routed track manufacturers seem to use some form of it so it can't be all bad. Is there anything better? Rick'll find out. 

Now how's that Snakepit running? Got her done?

Cheers eh,

Todd


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Hey Todd :wave:

The Snakepit was fully functional a year ago, but I'm not gonna say it's "done" til I get my proper sides and driver stations up (and crash walls)...which I've actually been working on this weekend. Work has really limited my time over the last year 

Back on topic, yes galvanized mild steel has long been the standard choice for HO rails. Are the better conductors? Sure there are. With everything being equal (length, power taps, etc) will you notice any differences when running cars on an average HO track? As long as your rail material is "in the ballpark"...not likely.

It's fairly easy to get "in the ballpark" really. Research. Metals have very specific properties that are documented and listed all over the web. In the big picture of wire materials, mild steel is actually not too bad compared to copper in terms of resistivity...and this is the parameter that's important to us. If you are looking for wire on a purely conductive basis, all you need to know is ohm-cir mil/ft. That's it.

The fact that after what...60 years....there has been no revolutionary deviations from plain old galvanized steel for rail material speaks volumes. It IS the de facto standard because it works well when purpose, specs, and price are all factored in.


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Gene a light bulb is basically a resistor,that's what gives you the light factor.With no resistance you're not gonna get any light.And they're very stable on load draw once they hit full brightness.
I haven't sent my meter out for calibration for a few years,but i usually trust it,it did bounce around,but i basically called it zero,as it wouldn't lock onto .1 ohms.

Basement floor is roughly 66 to 68 degrees,that's why i had everything laid out on it,i knew the temp i wanted to deal with,so i covered that variable too

Out of curiousity have you checked your track for drop since it's been up and running.
I'd also be curious about Bills track,if he's only got 2 taps on a 14ft Max.
A high carbon content style spring steel rail would be the way to go,but you'd never get it to stay put in a slot probably,and it'd be just about impossible to work with,so we're stuck with something that we can work with and that's usually a lower carbon content style mild steel,that has some flex and give to it

Gene,i stand by my tests,always have,remember theory doesn't always work that great in the real world,lol
I prefer actual numbers,not a sheet listing it's factors,that'll give you a ballpark idea of what to use,i actually want to know how the stuff works in my specific application
Good to see you back:wave:


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## Tsooko (Oct 15, 2009)

Gene:wave:
Good to see you back posting.
Rick, I'll get some wire into a box and send it down to you later this week. Do you want some of the copper coated flat wire also?
Cheers Ted


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Sure send some down if you have enough Ted.

Kihm's supposed to send you some stuff for me to test for him in a week or 2,wait till then to send it down Ted if you want,send everything down as one.

Gene you did make me go back and re-test the 18G,it still comes out at 0 ohms,then i picked up on the mistake,this is solid core 18G not AWG stranded:thumbsup:


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

I love testing things too but a light bulb is not an "ohmic" resistor, it's a very poor reference and you measurement kinda proves that. If they were 1/2-ohm resistors, your load would be around 12 amps at 18V. That said though, an 1156 bulb's spec is 2.1 amps at 12V, so your numbers are...again...near what's to be expected. 

Actually you could run the test at 12V to match the design of the bulb for more precise observations, from a technical standpoint you are overheating them which would be considered very unstable.

And yeah, I looked up the word ohmic :tongue:


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Hornet said:


> Sure send some down if you have enough Ted.
> 
> Kihm's supposed to send you some stuff for me to test for him in a week or 2,wait till then to send it down Ted if you want,send everything down as one.
> 
> Gene you did make me go back and re-test the 18G,it still comes out at 0 ohms,then i picked up on the mistake,this is solid core 18G not AWG stranded:thumbsup:


My reference was to solid...look up any AWG chart :thumbsup:


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

LOL,i just dug out what i have on hand for 18G stranded,not enough,so i'm gonna run over and get more just for a comparision test.

Gene,build yourself the same style load tester and try it out,then come back.
You're working off ideas which you haven't actually tried,might be worth giving the lightbulb tester a try first,then come back and tell me it's a poor load tester for our application.

The bulb is plenty fine for our applications,and alot easier for most guys to get and work with,you might be getting a little to technical for our applications.

I highly doubt you'd get much differant results by using a resistor,or dropping the volts,other then the numbers will be smaller,the outcome will still be the same.
Build a lightbulb tester and compare it to a resistor tester,i'd almost lay money on the results being virtually the same from both styles of tester:wave:


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

BTW,watch the video,the bulb is shown under load,and it's pretty stable after it's at full brightness,18 volts isn't gonna make it anymore unstable then 12 volts.
Design factors on automotive lights are usually higher then 12 volts,the average alternator will give you 14 volts or more,and alot of the new systems are even higher.

Build a tester first Gene, even the simple version the single bulb:thumbsup:

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=340565


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

BTW:the post was just about passing info on,not about arguing whether i did it right or wrong.
You can do the test damn near any way you want,and i bet you're still gonna get roughly the same info.
All i was trying to do was give a comparision between differant rail materials for our applications,and i think i accomplished at least 90% of that for most guys:thumbsup:
Sorry if i'm not in a great mood,but i stand by my results Gene:wave:
Rick


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## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

ruh roh


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Gene:i apologize,i wasn't in the greatest moods earlier,i'm sorry for being cranky today.
Al actually made me realize i owed you an apology
Rick


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Hornet said:


> BTW:the post was just about passing info on,not about arguing whether i did it right or wrong.
> You can do the test damn near any way you want,and i bet you're still gonna get roughly the same info.
> All i was trying to do was give a comparision between differant rail materials for our applications,and i think i accomplished at least 90% of that for most guys:thumbsup:
> Sorry if i'm not in a great mood,but i stand by my results Gene:wave:
> Rick


why you....I outta...lol 

Al, Rick and I do this all the time really. Just two guys who probably get more technical than we need to who sometimes go about different ways to meet the same end.

Rick I did say (twice now) that your results were pretty much what would be expected per calculations :thumbsup:


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

LOL,yea Al nothing to worry about with me and Gene,but i was being cranky pants this morning.

Gene i re-tested the 18G and realistically with 3 differant meters and 4 differant test leads,it basically comes up as 0 ohms for this test.
In a lab under lab conditions and using lab grade equipment,yes you'll probably measure a tenth of an ohm resistance,but in the real world using readily available meters that the general public has access to,she's coming up as 0 ohms.

I tested a few more wire sizes,had them on hand,and figured i might as well test them to,while i got everything spread out on the floor.

I'll post todays results ,back on the post that has the yesterdays results on it.:thumbsup:


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

Here's the only test I've made. I've driven on Rick's track with 0.020" X 0.103" stitching wire and 493 copper wire power taps (or however many you've made Rick) and it works great. So, I've got two tracks planned, started or somehow being worked on and I'm sticking with the stitching wire. Definitely for sure. Unless of course someone can show me an easier, better way of doing things then I may start waffling and change my mind. Unless of course I don't. Thanks for all the testing, arguing and thought provoking conversations boys. OK now back to report cards.


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

LOL,it's up to 19 power taps now,blame that on Carter though

If he hadn't sent me pic's of his taps,i'd stayed with the orginal 11 little 18G taps it orginally had.

Gene,have you seen Rick C's taps,they're so simple they're ingenious:thumbsup:.


Gene:I want say thank-you for your advice and tips on building my track,i haven't been able to thank-you since it's been done,and i owe you one for your help:thumbsup:
Thanks Gene
Rick


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## Boosted-Z71 (Nov 26, 2007)

Rick or Todd can you post the info on the wire taps, that might be something I think about doing to my new layout later on.

Boosted


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## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

boosted, imagine a copper staple right next to the rail and soldering the power tap to it on the underside. you drill two holes right against the side of the rail and insert the custom made copper staple next to the rail. if you can get it tight enough to the rail, you don't even have to solder it to the rail. a picture would better detail.


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Al nailed it,good way to describe them Al, here's Rick C's pic's,to help with the mental image
About 1/2 way down page 6

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=331698&page=6


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## Boosted-Z71 (Nov 26, 2007)

Man those are very nice and easy to install, I am going to keep those in mind, again Thanks for the info.

Boosted


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

And Rick (Hornet), didn't you put yours on the lock wire side of the rail? Since your lock wire is epoxied in it didn't affect it at all if I'm not mistook.


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Todd's right,i added mine in on the lockwire side.

It actually worked out really easy on my set-up,and they were done after the track was operational.

I used .065" plastic weed trimmer line as lockwire,and all i did was drill 2 small holes through the plastic trimmer line,to match the legs of the "U" shaped tap,and pried the piece of lockwire out,between the holes,and the 14G taps dropped right in beside the rail,with a snug fit:thumbsup:

I solder'd mine to the rail,but it's definitely not a requirement.

I wasn't happy with the power the track had before adding Rick's "U" style of taps,it always felt soft on throttle response,compared to my old high powered Tyco track.
After adding the 14G taps,it definitely had an improvement in throttle response,but not sure if that's because of the bigger style 14G tap,or the fact that there's just more of them.

You could easily make the "U" longer then i did,and i think you'd gain even more from them:thumbsup:


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Hornet said:


> LOL,it's up to 19 power taps now,blame that on Carter though
> 
> If he hadn't sent me pic's of his taps,i'd stayed with the orginal 11 little 18G taps it orginally had.
> 
> ...


You're welcome Rick, always glad to share what I can and have gotten alot of tips from you as well. 

Lurnin iz fun! 

Oh yeah I did see those taps, nicely done. I did mine very similar, solid 14G but I made a simple "L" and bent them at a 90 under the table. Mine are on the insides of the rails and soldered as well. 

One note about not soldering them...there is no such thing as a flat wire or rail...the surfaces are full of tiny potholes. Under stress (heavy loads) arcing will occur around those pothole...invisible to us, but it will accelerate corrosion much like what happens to Tyco rail joints (passive connections as I call them). If you don't solder, a great treatment...although expensive...would be to occasionally add a few drops of Stabilant 22 to the joint. This stuff actually creates like a microscopic electrical connection at the spot any arc would occur...fantastic stuff.


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

I remember your's now.I should of remembered your's earlier,as i was amazed at how straight you got the short 14G taps:thumbsup:
Memories not as good as it used to be

Thanks Gene for the compliments


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Added another test for anybody interested,it's back on page 3 with the other tests.
This one is .025" round stitching wire.
Rick


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

By how hot that 0.025" round stitching wire gets, it'd be the ideal candidate for making a hot wire foam cutter. I've got enough kicking around to make about 43,000 of them. :woohoo:

Todd


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