# The Elephant in the Room



## Serge (Jan 4, 2014)

In the summer of 1973 I pitted for the #6 Plate (Motto Cross) here in Colorado. The bike was a 125cc Penton. By 1974 the same bike was relegated to junk by the introduction of the 125cc Honda, Elsinore. It's easy to see why every Joe in America was interested in the new, fast and dependable Honda. It's hard to ignore a superior new product. 

The parallel I'm trying to draw is the introduction of the new Dash chassis and armatures. You can't deny the potential of these newcomers. In my opinion they will eventually become the mainstay of T-jet racing across America, for many reason. Of course the "powers that be" are the ones that will ultimately decide. If we are truly focused on keeping T-jet racing alive and well, isn't it in everyone's interest to introduce a resource of new parts. Innovation is what keeps racing interesting on all scales.

That's All!
Serge


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## Paul R (Nov 3, 2009)

I agree the armatures are better, but the chassis and gears seem about the same and in fact I think the brush spring design on the T-Jet is better. What makes the DASH so much better when basicly it's the same design? What group do you race with that doesn't allow them? For the clubs I race with there has been no clamoring for the DASH car in our T-Jet only classes. We do have classes that allow the DASH chassis and some, including myself have built cars using the DASH cars. It seems the clamoring for the DASH chassis in online and not at the races.


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## Rich Dumas (Sep 3, 2008)

The Dash chassis is not necessarily better, that is not the point. I had very fast T-Jets that I bought back in the '60s, those were all stolen while I was in the Army. I got into organized HO racing about thirteen years ago and there were classes for T-Jets included. I struggled for twelve years trying to build competitive cars, the final stumbling block was finding good armatures. Once I did that I had good cars, but most people would have given up long ago.
As time goes by people will drop out of the hobby for many reasons, one of those reasons is that they have gotten tired of getting lapped a few dozen times in each race by people with faster cars.
NOS Aurora chassis have gotten expensive, $20 and up for a rolling chassis with an armature that is usually only good to put in a shelf queen. I know at least three people that have bought a thousand chassis to find a few good ones. A number of people that used to sell worked up Fray style armatures have stopped doing so because they had to buy a hundred armatures to find a few that were worth working on. In my view the hobby cannot be sustained on that basis.
HOCOC has a class where Dash cars with 14 ohm 3 lamination armatures are legal and a Dash chassis with a Dash 16 ohm 2 lamination armature can be run in the T-Jet SS class. The 2 lamination armatures can be run in any class that uses a 16 ohm armature.
A few people have started to enter Dash cars in HOCOC races. I does not seem to me that a Dash car is going to be faster than a well tuned Aurora based car, but the Dash cars were not intended to be faster in any case.
Right now some people are hesitant to allow Dash cars. Consider this, the number of people in the hobby is going down. If we keep on doing what we have been doing things are not going to get better.


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## Dyno Dom (May 26, 2007)

Some of the members of our inline club have gotten an interest for T-Jet racing
and originally acquired AW/JL and more recently available Dash chassis.
Between these 2 chassis, I believe the T-Dash to be better quality. 
My opinion for these chassis is that they will not be accepted for mixed competition at a nationally
organized race but will be popular among regional racing clubs and basement racers. 
The investment of original accumulated parts by many racers and the belief that an abundance of the same are available thru several means are to be considered. 
Also, the factor of available original parts as a ratio of what was produced in relation to the # of chassis recently manufactured and the question
of what the future production can be is vastly different.
The two new chassis are a boon to the hobby as they have created a renewed interest by many racers who might not have previously desired to purchase and sort thru the older items for race quality parts but can now compete within an even plane. 
The aftermarket parts industry hopefully benefits with a larger customer base.


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## urnuts (Jul 3, 2012)

*Dude....*

You had me at "Penton" and "Elsinore"....... after that I stopped reading! 
I rode with John Penton at the ISDT RR last Summer- AWESOME!


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## Serge (Jan 4, 2014)

*Clarification*

Paul, 
Please let me clarify my earlier comments. I run with FRHO (Denver). We race a few classes in which the Dash chassis has been adopted. The most notable is the "Spec Class". This class is essentially a stock out of the box Playing Mantis/ Johnny Lightning/AW 3 lam, 14 tooth car, in which after market slip on tires and simple axle weights are allowed. This class was designed as a budget racer for about $20. Unfortunately it took weeding through cases of cars to find even a few suitable to build. It defeated the whole purpose of the class. With a Dash arm/chassis you can buy only one, blueprint it and be competitive.
We have also found that a 2 lam Dash arm, with a little balancing can be used in a "Super Stock" and be competitive as well. In the same way it eliminates the cost of cherry picking through boxes of NOS chassis. Now whether the Dash Chassis is superior to a suitably prepared Aurora chassis, I agree, is yet to be determined.
I love our hobby, but frankly I don't have the inclination or the wherewithal to sort through cases of cars. It's everything I can do, to budget for annual attendance at the Fray.


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## Paul R (Nov 3, 2009)

Rich,
I don't know why it took you 12 years to find good armatures. I've only been building T-Jets for the past few years and I've fund plenty of usable arms. And if you're paying $20 for a chassis, you're looking in the wrong place. Who has bought thousands of chassis to find a good one? I'll take the ones they don't want. Consider this, the number of people racing in Outlaws is going up. The guys showing up to race are happy with the rules. We have classes that allow the DASH chassis and in a field of 19 cars, 8 were DASH. At the same time nobody seemed to have a problem fielding a competitive car in the T-Jet only classes. In many cases the top half or more of the field is within a few laps of the winner. We've got some of the best racing going on right now. Why would we want to mess with that?

Serge,
We have a similar class that we now allow the DASH chassis in. I completely agree that the DASH chassis is a welcome addition to this class. The JL/AW chassis and gears are a complete hit or miss. We've had one race this season with this class. The DASH cars did very well considering we were on a pretty open track and JL/AW have a 14 tooth pinion while everyone running the DASH stuck with the stock 9 tooth pinion. 

It seems to me the approach being taken now is let the local clubs experiment with the car. It's what our club is doing. At our next rules meeting in the summer we will discuss the DASH chassis and armatures again and decide where it fits in and where it doesn't. I think the Fray and ECHORR Challenge have some of the best competition our there right now. I don;t think it hurts to give it some time before looking for those events to open up to the DASH chassis and arms.


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## Boosted-Z71 (Nov 26, 2007)

I think where the Dash chassis made its mark is in quality control, the arms (especially the new 17 ohm) are more consistent than Aurora units, and yeah I agree the brush springs need a little work, but they needed it on the Aurora's as well for a true race car. 

I guess the big deal for me was seeing the Dash come out verse the "quality" of the AW offering. Miles apart and good to see the Dash car was a great build platform and pretty much all the chassis I bought were consistent right out of the box. 

Its very easy to get a Dash to a level that will be competitive as a decent fray type car, I have built several, there all on par with some of the fastest Aurora fray cars I have along with my gage car built by K-C Tjet, every build goes against the K-C and I tweak to match that cars on track performance. Building one of the dash cars is just like a recipe, and it can be done on the next chassis and so on, again very consistent.

We tried building fray style cars from the AW offering for some of the local kids to race and the only way to keep them running at par was to change gear sets to Aurora, and we burnt at least 6 arms in 10 cars. 

All these cars were lapped gear sets and very free rolling resistance, no binding, the arms just gave up when ran mostly wide open on a large track @ 22 volts on a 10 amp supply, so no shortage of power either. Just not good longevity at that voltage, they seem to do better at 18-19 volts.

Boosted


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## lenny (Feb 29, 2000)

Paul R said:


> I agree the armatures are better, but the chassis and gears seem about the same and in fact I think the brush spring design on the T-Jet is better. What makes the DASH so much better when basicly it's the same design? What group do you race with that doesn't allow them? For the clubs I race with there has been no clamoring for the DASH car in our T-Jet only classes. We do have classes that allow the DASH chassis and some, including myself have built cars using the DASH cars. It seems the clamoring for the DASH chassis in online and not at the races.


I won't say my chassis is better, because we set out to replicate a 50 year old chassis and for better or worse, we mostly accomplished that goal.

I DO think the plastic we use is better. It's a delrin/glass fibre as opposed to nylon. nylon has a tendency to absorb moisture which could mess with tolerances.

I also would put forth that we accomplished one of the main goals which was interchangeability with legacy aurora t-jets.

Our gears are loud, and I discovered it's because the brass we use has a very high zinc content. The next batch of gears will address that.

We are getting away from the domed brushes as soon as possible.

Our axles are stainless steel (non-magnetic). I consider that a plus.

The rims and tires will eventually be upgraded to something 'not skinny'.

All in all I'm happy with the product we put out there. I'd also like to add that there is not a car that leaves my desk that hasn't been assembled by hand by me.

Dan


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## bearsox (Apr 22, 2006)

lenny said:


> I won't say my chassis is better, because we set out to replicate a 50 year old chassis and for better or worse, we mostly accomplished that goal.
> 
> I DO think the plastic we use is better. It's a delrin/glass fibre as opposed to nylon. nylon has a tendency to absorb moisture which could mess with tolerances.
> 
> ...


*HI ,*
* Very good response Dan ! Your answers were pretty much right on the money . You comments were humble in the accomplishments your fine chassis has made AND better yet when commenting on limitations or needs for upgrades , you pointed out the issues and the coming solution ! IMHO one of my favorite posts yet to read as it was short and to the point with plenty of meat for those who read close !*

*Well done , *
*Dennis Rutherford *
*Balls Out HO Racing*


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## Bubba 123 (Sep 10, 2010)

lenny said:


> I won't say my chassis is better, because we set out to replicate a 50 year old chassis and for better or worse, we mostly accomplished that goal.
> 
> I DO think the plastic we use is better. It's a delrin/glass fibre as opposed to nylon. nylon has a tendency to absorb moisture which could mess with tolerances.
> 
> ...


Please leave the "Skinnies" as an "Option", for some of us that prefer them :thumbsup: 

TY :wave:
Bubba 123 :wave::freak:


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## Paul R (Nov 3, 2009)

Excellent to hear Dan. Great refinements to an already excellent product. As I have said in the past our club is very happy with the DASH cars.


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## tomhocars (Oct 19, 2005)

Having been with Dash since the start has been rewarding.The bodies were the first products that came out but the objective was always to manufacture the chassis.Lots of hard work and believe me $$$$$went into the development of the T-Dash chassis.Refinement will continue with the chassis as time goes on.10,000 have been produced and sold.10,000 more are being put togeher now.T-Dash is here to stay.Thanks Tom Stumpf


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## oldraceral (Dec 1, 2005)

Dan, thanks for the info on the gears. Our group has been racing your chassis on a rotating basis in our stock class this year and have noticed the little extra noise. We've been pretty happy with the close racing and almost all the racers have been trying your chassis in our other classes. Makes for a lot of interesting 'bench racing'.


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## Dyno Dom (May 26, 2007)

Good news for updates on axle, brushes and gear material. 
Congratulations & best wishes for your successful chassis. :thumbsup:


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## plymouth71 (Dec 14, 2009)

I gotta get me some...


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## TomH (Jan 17, 2006)

tomhocars said:


> Having been with Dash since the start has been rewarding.The bodies were the first products that came out but the objective was always to manufacture the chassis.Lots of hard work and believe me $$$$ into the development of the T-Dash chassis.Refinement will continue with the chassis as time goes on.10,000 have been produced and sold.10,000 more are being put togeher now.T-Dash is here to stay.Thanks Tom Stumpf


10,000 sold :thumbsup: Hope you guys are making a buck and having fun while doing it.


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## bobhch (Apr 22, 2007)

I have some....Good Stuff Man!! :woohoo:

Bob...Dashing along...zilla


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## lenny (Feb 29, 2000)

TomH said:


> 10,000 sold :thumbsup: Hope you guys are making a buck and having fun while doing it.


I'm barely breaking even. It's actually a PIA doing this chassis because I'm too much of a control freak to let the factory assemble it. It's time consuming and annoying. I'm seriously considering pulling the plug on the complete chassis and just selling armatures and maybe gear plates. 

The 'decision' by fray to allow my 2 lam armatures in the IROC event was disappointing. There are simply too many people with vested interests in legacy Aurora crap to allow a full fledged acceptance of the T-Dash chassis. For whatever reason, Hiram Durant is part of the decision making process for allowing parts into fray. While he has any sway with fray, the chance of full approval is going to be ZERO. ECHORR could give a rats a$$ about the Dash chassis. 

I had more fun just making bodies. I really think that's where I'm headed again.

Dan


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## lenny (Feb 29, 2000)

bobhch said:


> I have some....Good Stuff Man!! :woohoo:
> 
> Bob...Dashing along...zilla


Thank you.


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## Gareth (Mar 8, 2011)

I've got four of your T-Dash chassis Dan and I have to say I think they are superb. I've only driven one so far as I've yet to paint up the four bodies I got with them so the one I have has an AW Mustang on it. 

It has gained a huge amount of interest when I've taken it along to a couple of race meetings and it is a real pleasure to drive. 

We don't have a Tjet race culture here in the UK but my friend Andy and I are looking to put together some races over the next year or so. 

The UK "scene" has a very forward looking perspective so our inline classes tend to be geared towards what chassis are readily available to buy for new drivers coming into the hobby so we have Mega G Open Wheel, LMP1 and Micro Scalextric racing for example along with the usual mix of SG+s, Lifelikes and Tycos. 

For us to build a successful Tjet series, it makes sense to use what people can buy brand new and what they can race with the minimum of fuss but the most potential for victory. To my mind, that is your chassis as it is going to be quick, reliable and hassle free out of the packet unlike the AW offering with its well documented quality issues. That isn't to say that we wouldn't be happy for someone to run one of those or indeed an original Tjet if they owned one. Inclusivity is a big goal of mine.

I completely understand your frustration with the slow progress being made with the sanctioning bodies in the States. I only hope as more people get to own your chassis, run them and enjoy them that you will see more of a groundswell of support for it to be made race legal with more groups.

Anyway, thank you for the superb product and for having the vision and tenacity to make it happen. 

Cheers

Gareth


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## 41-willys (Jan 7, 2000)

lenny said:


> I'm barely breaking even. It's actually a PIA doing this chassis because I'm too much of a control freak to let the factory assemble it. It's time consuming and annoying. I'm seriously considering pulling the plug on the complete chassis and just selling armatures and maybe gear plates.
> 
> The 'decision' by fray to allow my 2 lam armatures in the IROC event was disappointing. There are simply too many people with vested interests in legacy Aurora crap to allow a full fledged acceptance of the T-Dash chassis. For whatever reason, Hiram Durant is part of the decision making process for allowing parts into fray. While he has any sway with fray, the chance of full approval is going to be ZERO. ECHORR could give a rats a$$ about the Dash chassis.
> 
> ...


 So will that KILL the chance of the slim line chassis for us customizers


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## Dyno Dom (May 26, 2007)

Dan, what you have contributed for the HO Hobby is to be greatly commended.
:thumbsup: Our club T-Jet race program is based on the T-Dash chassis. 
As someone not affiliated with National rules and simply an outside opinion I agree that "vested interests" are a strong factor as per my prior post #4.
I wish you the very best with your future decisions and endeavors.


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## Shadowracer (Sep 11, 2004)

I picked up a bunch of your chassis Danny and I'm thrilled with them. If I can throw my 2 cents in.

- We now have a decent, solid, and most importantly, CURRENT Tjet platform for home racers, customizers, and basement clubs. Don't let the FRAY business get in the way of understanding that you have really started something magnificent here. This is the "Tjet of the future" if you will. Forget the FRAY. I can't say for sure but I'd bet it doesn't represent most of your customers anyway. Hell they've started referring to stock skinny tire Tjets as "nostalgia cars" 

- Man I just can't imagine putting 10,000 chassis together. You gotta get some help man. People will pay for awesome. AW Tjet chassis go approx 10-12 bucks (depending where you go) and are pretty much considered crap. You could charge a bit more. People will pay for quality. Especially now that the word is out that this stuff is good. 

You've ushered in a new golden age of of tjets man. Congratulations. I hope there's a way to keep the chassis plentiful, and profitable for you.


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## tjcdas (Oct 6, 2004)

Shadowracer said:


> I picked up a bunch of your chassis Danny and I'm thrilled with them. If I can throw my 2 cents in.
> 
> - We now have a decent, solid, and most importantly, CURRENT Tjet platform for home racers, customizers, and basement clubs. Don't let the FRAY business get in the way of understanding that you have really started something magnificent here. This is the "Tjet of the future" if you will. Forget the FRAY. I can't say for sure but I'd bet it doesn't represent most of your customers anyway. Hell they've started referring to stock skinny tire Tjets as "nostalgia cars"
> 
> ...


100% on the mark forget the 1% market of Fray racers and sell to the other 99% of non-offical Fray type and T-jet racer. 

By not allowing the DASH chassis the Fray and other groups will die off as the tiny group of racers are aging and will be dead as will be precious racing programs that only allow cars that were made before many racers were born.


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## tasman (Feb 17, 2007)

lenny said:


> I'm barely breaking even. It's actually a PIA doing this chassis because I'm too much of a control freak to let the factory assemble it. It's time consuming and annoying. I'm seriously considering pulling the plug on the complete chassis and just selling armatures and maybe gear plates.
> 
> The 'decision' by fray to allow my 2 lam armatures in the IROC event was disappointing. There are simply too many people with vested interests in legacy Aurora crap to allow a full fledged acceptance of the T-Dash chassis. For whatever reason, Hiram Durant is part of the decision making process for allowing parts into fray. While he has any sway with fray, the chance of full approval is going to be ZERO. ECHORR could give a rats a$$ about the Dash chassis.
> 
> ...


Dan,
Have you considered selling in a kit form? Let the consumer do the final assembly. I think a lot of the folks who have purchased your chassis would be willing to pay the current price and do the final assembly themselves. You have already proven the quality of the parts by the reviews. Just a thought.

I don't know if that would make it more profitable, but it could free a lot of your time.


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## tjcdas (Oct 6, 2004)

Great idea!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Bubba 123 (Sep 10, 2010)

tjcdas said:


> 100% on the mark forget the 1% market of Fray racers and sell to the other 99% of non-offical Fray type and T-jet racer.
> 
> By not allowing the DASH chassis the Fray and other groups will die off as the tiny group of racers are aging and will be dead as will be precious racing programs that only allow cars that were made before many racers were born.


not 2 mention, every year, less of those originals are still around...
let alone affordable.....

the slim line version will even be a bigger market for :thumbsup:
especially, if you can make as many parts of your standard T-Dash possible...
interchangeable with your slim lines (??)

just selling the T-Dash chassis components, as replacement parts for the original Aurora's...
will be a strong market, along with the better magnets you make :thumbsup:

just a thought.. :freak:

Bubba 123 :wave:


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## ruralradio (Mar 11, 2011)

Bubba 123 said:


> .....along with the better magnets you make :thumbsup:


Yeah, Dan, don't lose the magnets!


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## ajd350 (Sep 18, 2005)

Dan, I think you are putting too much emphasis on the chassis being 'Fray legal'. Not to minimize the prominence of The Fray and ECHORR Challenge, but they are only two race events. The rest of the year there are THOUSANDS of races all over the country where your chassis ARE approved and being used. Yes, it would be a nice feather in your cap, but it is far from the mainstream market you seek. Beyond those race groups that are running them, the Dash chassis is popular with collectors who want them to put under bodies as well as casual racers who don't have any club affiliation. 

Don't take it personally, Dan. There are many parts and bodies that don't get the blessing. Doesn't mean there is a reason to deprive the people who want them from getting them. You've made a fine product and it deserves it's due. 

I would agree with the non-assembled chassis offering. As racers, the first thing many of us do is to take it all apart and blueprint it anyway. It would be a nice option. I've built up 100+ batches of T-Jet chassis and it's pretty tedious. Couldn't imagine doing 1000, let alone 10,000!

Please don't bail out after coming this far.


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## Serge (Jan 4, 2014)

*Yess....*



ajd350 said:


> Dan, I think you are putting too much emphasis on the chassis being 'Fray legal'. Not to minimize the prominence of The Fray and ECHORR Challenge, but they are only two race events. The rest of the year there are THOUSANDS of races all over the country where your chassis ARE approved and being used. Yes, it would be a nice feather in your cap, but it is far from the mainstream market you seek. Beyond those race groups that are running them, the Dash chassis is popular with collectors who want them to put under bodies as well as casual racers who don't have any club affiliation.
> 
> Don't take it personally, Dan. There are many parts and bodies that don't get the blessing. Doesn't mean there is a reason to deprive the people who want them from getting them. You've made a fine product and it deserves it's due.
> 
> ...


very well said Mr.D


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## beast1624 (Mar 28, 2009)

Yes indeed.


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## Tuxedo (Dec 14, 2011)

lenny said:


> I won't say my chassis is better, because we set out to replicate a 50 year old chassis and for better or worse, we mostly accomplished that goal.
> 
> I DO think the plastic we use is better. It's a delrin/glass fibre as opposed to nylon. nylon has a tendency to absorb moisture which could mess with tolerances.
> 
> ...


 Your "Happy" with your product? You should be! 

Congrats to you on the T-Dash Chassis. I buy them all the time. Just scored 3 off of the Bay today and I'm going to keep buying them. They're FRIGGEN AWESOME. Thank you for what you have done for us and speaking for myself ....Looking forward to more.
:thumbsup:


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## mrtjet (Dec 3, 2013)

Dan don't stop now! Several makers have tried to remake the tjet. I don't feel that any of them got it right. It seems that they are hit or miss at best. Where as you got it right the first time. No building a Dash car.any one can be a winner ! Good job! The only issue that I see IMHO is the pick up shoes seem to be to thin. That is my opinion ONLY. It is also an easily fixed problem should someone see it as a problem. Should you choose to do the slimline from what I have read there. Seems to be quite the market for them also. Several people are making bodies for them. People have discussed how they would love to race cars that would look better on a chassis that would allow a better proportioned body. I hope other people after reading this will chime in and echo my feelings.


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## wheelszk (Jul 8, 2006)

ajd350 said:


> Dan, I think you are putting too much emphasis on the chassis being 'Fray legal'. Not to minimize the prominence of The Fray and ECHORR Challenge, but they are only two race events. The rest of the year there are THOUSANDS of races all over the country where your chassis ARE approved and being used. Yes, it would be a nice feather in your cap, but it is far from the mainstream market you seek. Beyond those race groups that are running them, the Dash chassis is popular with collectors who want them to put under bodies as well as casual racers who don't have any club affiliation.
> 
> Don't take it personally, Dan. There are many parts and bodies that don't get the blessing. Doesn't mean there is a reason to deprive the people who want them from getting them. You've made a fine product and it deserves it's due.
> 
> ...


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## Bubba 123 (Sep 10, 2010)

mrtjet said:


> Dan don't stop now! Several makers have tried to remake the tjet. I don't feel that any of them got it right. It seems that they are hit or miss at best. Where as you got it right the first time. No building a Dash car.any one can be a winner ! Good job! The only issue that I see IMHO is the pick up shoes seem to be to thin. That is my opinion ONLY. It is also an easily fixed problem should someone see it as a problem. Should you choose to do the slimline from what I have read there. Seems to be quite the market for them also. Several people are making bodies for them. People have discussed how they would love to race cars that would look better on a chassis that would allow a better proportioned body. I hope other people after reading this will chime in and echo my feelings.


I'm HAPPY just the way they come, I don't race :-(
but I take LONG drives around the track :thumbsup:

IF you can make a "Slimline" better than the originals....
I'ld shoot 4 that, don't worry "IF" the parts are interchangeable w/ Aurora's..
THAT, may be the problem 2 begin w/ (Aurora's design)...

heck, go "Can" motors, if you can :drunk: 

we still need Dash Bodies also....
TY 4 ALL U've done :thumbsup:

Bubba 123 :wave:


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## Tuxedo (Dec 14, 2011)

I would add to those comments that I don't race in a group/organization either. Just with friends. We love the T-Dash Chassis. If you make a Slimmy - we'll buy that too, and bodies and.....anything else you got coming down the pike.


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## rodstrguy (Feb 14, 2002)

Dan,
I would love to help you assemble chassis free of charge, I live close enough that I can pop up to Milwaukee easily. I think that putting them together and hearing them run is the best part of having T-Jets...
All of the Dash chassis I have so far have been great runners, so I know how well you know how to put them together, but I would be glad to help out.


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## slotcardan (Jun 9, 2012)

...........


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