# Mattel's Speed Racer set...What a joke of a track!



## Jim Norton (Jun 29, 2007)

I just stumbled over news of Mattel's new Speed Racer set on Slot Car Illustrated.

I could not believe what a "rinky dinky" track was a part of the set. It is the smallest figure 8 that can possibly be built.

Boy, this could have really done a lot for the hobby had Mattel figured that an exciting track layout is meritted for what will be a huge summer hit! Sometimes you really got to wonder..............

Jim Norton
Huntsville, Alabama


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

I agree with your sentiments Jim, but the movie has been pretty much labeled a flop, the studio is already calling it a loss. I'd bet by summer, it'll be on DVD.


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## grungerockjeepe (Jan 8, 2007)

Well as lame as that track is, its no different than what Mattyco has been putting out in the past 4 or 5 years. Batman begins, Cars, Police Pursuit, and that one with the charger and superbird wearing those ugly Dubs have the same setup.


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## medic57 (Mar 3, 2008)

Interestinly enough though, the cars have a Tyco wound 4 ohm arm. Might be usable for something. A very cheap low ohm arm could be used for something.


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

Mattel actually seems to be going out of their way to kill the slot car line. It's not just ignoring the product line, it seems to be purposly sabotaging it. You couldn't do more harm to the product if you let your competitors design and market it.

I wish they would just sell off that part of the company; obviously, they want nothing to do with it.

I was speaking to a volume vendor who will sometimes work large deals with a manufacturer. I asked if he could work a deal with Mattel. He said no way; Mattel wants you to take other product lines as well as slot cars if you want to purchase from them.

Idiots.


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## tjettim (Nov 29, 2005)

I wish Mattel would make an updated X2 with longer lower traction magnets.
Their F1 bodies over the years have been great,and I wish they would continue
in that direction.If they want to attract a younger audience they need to make
the types of cars they identify with-the (yuk) ricers with wings and blooie pipes.
The AW versions seemed to sell.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

More tuners, now we're talking.

Mattel gave up on their slot car products years ago. When there is an opportunity to tap into some gimmicky movie or event they will crank out some novelty sets to make a few bucks. Most of these are dumpster fodder.


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## dhamby123 (Jan 6, 2007)

well what do you expect in a technolgy world if it doesnt work its self or play on a tv or computer kids want nothing to do with it heck im only 26 and i c how things have changed so much since i was 10 to 15 im just glad i got on the slot car wagon when i was young its a shame you cant go out to toysrus or wallmart AND buy cars or anything anymore i remeber when i was 10 you could go to the local toysrus and they had all the lines of cars in a case to choose from.. now they have nothing . not in nc anyway want to have some fun ask our local wallmart employee if they have and slot cars most likely they will ask you what it is and when you tell them what it is they still dont understand what you are talking about but will go on a wild goose chase to find them for you hahaha .. its a shame


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## grungerockjeepe (Jan 8, 2007)

Grandcheapskate said:


> Mattel actually seems to be going out of their way to kill the slot car line. It's not just ignoring the product line, it seems to be purposly sabotaging it. You couldn't do more harm to the product if you let your competitors design and market it.
> 
> I wish they would just sell off that part of the company; obviously, they want nothing to do with it.
> 
> ...


I seriously wish I had the money or at least the investors to make a serious offer to buy the slotcar line off Mattel. Even with minor tweaks to the chassis or none at all, just producing cars would result in immediate sales. Go back to the old type tires (the ones that were NOT lopsided), crank out some tune up kits and design some fresh paint schemes on existing and new bodystyles is all youd really need to get it off the ground and then once the money rolls in it'd be time to develop some new stuff.


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## noddaz (Aug 6, 1999)

*Buy the slot line from Mattel? WHY?*

It would be cheaper to start your own slot line than to buy what Mattel has ruined....
Nothing personal,
just my .02......

Scott


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## jstudrawa (Mar 20, 2008)

dhamby123 said:


> well what do you expect in a technolgy world if it doesnt work its self or play on a tv or computer kids want nothing to do with it heck im only 26 and i c how things have changed so much since i was 10 to 15 im just glad i got on the slot car wagon when i was young its a shame you cant go out to toysrus or wallmart AND buy cars or anything anymore i remeber when i was 10 you could go to the local toysrus and they had all the lines of cars in a case to choose from.. now they have nothing . not in nc anyway want to have some fun ask our local wallmart employee if they have and slot cars most likely they will ask you what it is and when you tell them what it is they still dont understand what you are talking about but will go on a wild goose chase to find them for you hahaha .. its a shame


No offense, but that hurt a lot to read.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

> No offense, but that hurt a lot to read.


Yes, instant messaging and phone text messaging have returned us to hieroglyphic forms of written communication.


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## Scafremon (Dec 11, 2006)

AfxToo said:


> Yes, instant messaging and phone text messaging have returned us to hieroglyphic forms of written communication.


Or, they could be the path that helps us evolve toward a more advanced form of communicating.


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## Montoya1 (May 14, 2004)

If writing m8 instead of mate is advancement, count me out


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

> Or, they could be the path that helps us evolve toward a more advanced form of communicating.


u ma b rit


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## rudykizuty (Aug 16, 2007)

AfxToo said:


> u ma b rit


You crazy kids


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## grungerockjeepe (Jan 8, 2007)

noddaz said:


> It would be cheaper to start your own slot line than to buy what Mattel has ruined....
> Nothing personal,
> just my .02......
> 
> Scott


I see your point, but think it thru. Mattyco hasnt so much 'ruined' the line as just let it sit and languish. There's nothing wrong with the actual product short of the fact that they dont damn well put much out there. Since they obviously arent commited to HO slots, you'd likely be able to buy the line for a few hundred grand. They've put out 1/43rd scale sets made by Artin before and for a little extra merchandising cash in on a summer blockbuster, thats just fine. So its not like theyd really be giving up much of anything. OR, they could always subcontract you to make so many cheap-o figure 8 sets for them like they do now and theyd cash in like that.

In buying the line off Mattyco, youd get tooling for a whole slew of bodies and chassis that are tried and true eliminating the need to design and develop a brand new piece that could well be riddled with bugs--S3 anyone? Any patents and licensing are long since paid for. Just as important the Tyco name is instantly recognized and would once again be a hot commodity in the slotcar market. They put it on their RC line so likely you could get away with changing the name TycoPro all over again. If not, then Magnum would prolly do just fine. Either way they already have the factories lined up in china right now and with some small changes it'd just be ramping up production.

The first thing Id do would be to tweak up the 440 X2 narrow chassis with stronger magnets, indy front end and mandatory silicone rears essentially revitalizing the 440 X3. This would make for my high performance offering so the widepan 440 would be gone. Id do a little research to determine which of the existing narrow body molds make the most sense to re-pop, although id change the molds molding the glass right in making for a lighter, stronger setup similar to what lifelike and tomy currently do. Then develop new ones keeping in mind whats popular. Like lifelike and Tomy, theyd have good detail but the focus would be on the performance.

For the widepans Id bring back the HP-7, with a few tweaks as well. That'd be my offering for entry level slotters as well as for those who like traditional style racing with lots of slide. Since the chassis is simple and cheap, and the level of speed wont be so quick to destroy the much more detailed bodies which would be a bit more focused towards the collectors and customizers. 

single cars, unfinished kit cars, and the return of the twinpacks for both X3 and HP-7 cars would be offered. A few full sets, small medium and large would be offered and of course pit kits as well as paks of wheels and tires to customize and upgrade the cars.


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## Montoya1 (May 14, 2004)

All we need now is 100 slotters to chip in $2000 each!


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## lenny (Feb 29, 2000)

grungerockjeepe said:


> For the widepans Id bring back the HP-7, with a few tweaks as well. That'd be my offering for entry level slotters as well as for those who like traditional style racing with lots of slide. Since the chassis is simple and cheap, and the level of speed wont be so quick to destroy the much more detailed bodies which would be a bit more focused towards the collectors and customizers.


Really? that sounds like my plan. Weren't you always the guy that posted that you always liked the curvehugger much more than the HP7??


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

grungerockjeepe said:


> I see your point, but think it thru. Mattyco hasnt so much 'ruined' the line as just let it sit and languish. There's nothing wrong with the actual product short of the fact that they dont damn well put much out there. Since they obviously arent commited to HO slots, you'd likely be able to buy the line for a few hundred grand.


 What you would be "buying" would be the physical (and intellectual) tools necessary to make slot cars, including the molds. There is really no other value to the line. You could no doubt start from scratch and easily copy any existing bodies and track. But designing, testing and making the molds would be where the bulk of the initial costs would be incurred (as it was with our track). However, if what you "buy" would be the plans, technical info, molds, decals, deco and anything else that would allow you to simply start producing merchandise, then you did get value for your dollar.

However, somehow I doubt it would be just a few hundred grand. If it were, I would say it was within the realm of possibility. Anyone, or any group, willing to spend that kind of money would need to sit down and figure out just how much value is really embedded in the package you would receive from Mattel. Plus, would you need to hire any of the designers (if there are any left)?



> In buying the line off Mattyco, youd get tooling for a whole slew of bodies and chassis that are tried and true eliminating the need to design and develop a brand new piece that could well be riddled with bugs--S3 anyone? Any patents and licensing are long since paid for. Just as important the Tyco name is instantly recognized and would once again be a hot commodity in the slotcar market.


 I would doubt the licensing is paid for. That, I believe, would be an ongoing expense and probably something that may or may not be transferrable from Mattel. But you may be able to do away with licensing if all you do is produce generic cars and paint schemes. Producing a generic Indy or F1 body doesn't have to actually be a repro of a real car, just by coincidence look a lot like it.

As far as the track goes, the new style Mattel track is on a par with Tomy in terms of tightnss of fit and electrical connectivity. With some improved QA and three small adjustments (remove the molded letter, get rid of the flare in the slot and eliminate the 90 degree bend), I think Tyco/Mattel style track could become the industry leader.

Thanks...Joe


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## mking (Apr 25, 2000)

*i think that was me*



lenny said:


> Really? that sounds like my plan. Weren't you always the guy that posted that you always liked the curvehugger much more than the HP7??


 though i do have to admit the pick up system & front end assembly of the curve huggers leaves something to be desired


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## lenny (Feb 29, 2000)

grungerockjeepe said:


> Since they obviously arent commited to HO slots, you'd likely be able to buy the line for a few hundred grand.


You're kidding, right?? Dude, they probably made a 'few hundred grand' on the Speed Racer sets in the first few minutes they were available. And it all tied into their Speed Racer marketing scheme. And think back to the 'Cars' set they did. Believe it or not, that was a HUGE money maker!

As lame as Mattel is and as badly as they are botching the slot line (in our eyes), it's a money maker for them, and that's all they care about. A 'few hundred grand' ain't gonna cut it.

You'd be better off starting over. All of their chassis are public domain, the protection has expired. Even on the 440-2. If you're THAT ambitious, find a factory and send them the 440-2 to copy. It'll cost you roughly $15,000 for the tooling and stampings. The HP-7 is even cheaper to produce. Buying body molds doesn't buy you licensing. Body molds can be done for $4,000 to $8,000. 

You can have your 'slot empire' for alot less than a few hundred grand.


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

lenny said:


> All of their chassis are public domain, the protection has expired. Even on the 440-2.


Lenny,
Is this a fact or just a guess? How do you find out such information?

On another topic. If you are working on the HP-7 clone (hooray!), have you decided whether or not you will move the pickup "spring" to the shoes or leave it on the metal base? Although I suggested the move, it may not be doable if the area which is cut out of the shoe for the spring affects the area where the shoe meets the rail.

In either case, hopefully you can design the metal base so it can be used on either the original Tyco HP-7 or your version. That would allow someone to change/repair an old HP-7 chassis with a new pickup system. Both parts (shoes and base) are needed as replacements for older chassis. 

Thanks...Joe


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## lenny (Feb 29, 2000)

Grandcheapskate said:


> Lenny,
> Is this a fact or just a guess? How do you find out such information?


Patent protection expires after 25 years. Trademarks don't. So the actual chassis is public domain, but you have to name it something else. Aurora, TOMY, Tyco... Nearly all of them are public domain and can be copied.

Dan


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## Montoya1 (May 14, 2004)

Can PP be renewed though?


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## lenny (Feb 29, 2000)

Montoya1 said:


> Can PP be renewed though?


google it and find out


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## Montoya1 (May 14, 2004)

I did (very briefly) and it seemed to me it can be.


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## lenny (Feb 29, 2000)

Montoya1 said:


> I did (very briefly) and it seemed to me it can be.


I think you better keep googling... Make sure you're looking up patents, not trademarks.


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## Montoya1 (May 14, 2004)

Dan mate, as long as you have done the due diligence, I will take your word for it! When will the new chassis be on sale?


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

*The Happy Meal Principle*



lenny said:


> Big snip*....
> 
> ....As lame as Mattel is and as badly as they are botching the slot line (in our eyes), it's a money maker for them, and that's all they care about. A 'few hundred grand' ain't gonna cut it.......


There in lies the crux. We are not the target market! The target market is 'lil 
Johnny P. Whine, whose parents buy whatever it may be just to shuttem' up.

A few ten thousand picky grumpy oldschool slotters worldwide vs eight jillion infatuated kids hyped up on special effects and twizzlers?....hahahahahaha!.....A no brainer in the dollars and sense department.


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## LeeRoy98 (Jul 8, 2005)

Bill Hall said:


> picky grumpy oldschool slotters


I'll have you know I resemble that remark!! 

Gary
AKA LeeRoy98
www.marioncountyraceway.com


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

Bill Hall said:


> There in lies the crux. We are not the target market! The target market is 'lil Johnny P. Whine, whose parents buy whatever it may be just to shuttem' up.
> 
> A few ten thousand picky grumpy oldschool slotters worldwide vs eight jillion infatuated kids hyped up on special effects and twizzlers?....hahahahahaha!.....A no brainer in the dollars and sense department.


 No argument here as to Mattel's intentions. If, and it's a big IF, Mattel is actually concerned about any of it's products, the list probably starts and ends with Hot Wheels (diecast) and Barbie dolls. Maybe Fisher-Price.

The best line I ever heard about American corporate mentality came from someone who used to work in a small company which had recently been bought by a corporation. The guy left soon after that and became a real estate agent. He told me that once the corporation took over, what had been a good company "Got real stupid, real fast".

The slot car line is a self promoting money maker. Without any advertising whatsoever (have you seen/heard a slot car commercial in the last 30 years?), any decent slot car offering from Mattel sells out quickly. It's the junk offerings that end up in the discount stores. I doubt Mattel sells out of anything else. Try to locate one of the decent sets issued 5-6 years ago; they have been gone for years.

In the money worshiping world of corporate execs, I'm sure slot cars are not the mega stars of the Mattel universe. However, you would think that if you make a product and it sells out quickly, you might just have enough active brain cells to realize that if you made more, you might sell more. But then again, if you had an active brain cell (or two), you wouldn't be a corporate exec.

Joe


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## grungerockjeepe (Jan 8, 2007)

lenny said:


> Really? that sounds like my plan. Weren't you always the guy that posted that you always liked the curvehugger much more than the HP7??


Yup, and I ripped you off! Its a good plan, what can I say? And speaking of that, check your personal messages. I recently found a quick and very effective HP7 tweak I you'll want to know about before you release your version.

I do like the HP2 and even the older curvehuggers better than the HP7 but for a quick re-boot of the whole line to get people interested, get the cash flowing, and get the product back into the mainstream, the two pronged HP7 and 440 approach would be the hot ticket. The CH and HP2s are my faves, but there are a few more issues that would need to be addressed with those in order to perfect them, IMHO and once established, Id add these to the line as well as a revamped version of the matchbox (YES, matchbox) chassis as well. Why the MB? Well take a look at that yellow Jeep on the right in this pic. That handsome devil is made possible by the MB chassis since it can be easily fit with some fat honkin tires for a proper looking jeep, pickup, or other 4x4 vehicle. And they handle great whether used in a regular type car, or like this.


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## grungerockjeepe (Jan 8, 2007)

lenny said:


> Really? that sounds like my plan. Weren't you always the guy that posted that you always liked the curvehugger much more than the HP7??


Well crud, Dan. Apparently you cant get PMs. But what I was gonna tell you about a couple hopups I developed for my HP7 chassis that I think you should seriously consider integrating into your repop of this piece. 

Mod 1: This one is the most important, and Ive done this to every last HP7 I own and will do so to every one I get hereafter, it works that good.
What you do is remove the motor, slot pin, front axle, pickup skis and the spring/plate assemblys that retain the pickup skis from the chassis. You'll see those 2 raised 'slopes' under the leaf springs that seem to put all the pressure on the springs about 1/2 way down, resulting in WAY too much tension, not enough flex, and little adjustability which causes your car to deslot too often. Take a razor blade or even a dremel and shave those puppies off altogether. Now you'll see a pair of 'nipples' to the insides of the slopes, whatever you do, do NOT cut those off! I found out the hard way that they keep the springs/plates located on the chassis. 

Once you reassemble the chassis, the springs will have the full range of flexibility and your cars handle MUCH better without near as much deslotting and the pickups wear better as well since all theyre doing is picking up juice from the rails instead of bearing part of the weight of the front axle.

Mod2 is a real no-brainer and as soon as I have the parts, Ill be doing this to every HP7 I have as well.
Ive been buying homemade gear savers from a guy on Ebay. His product is very high quality, cheap and works like a charm. Once you mount one on an HP7, all the gear skip is gone. Tyco saved what, a tenth of a cent by cheaping out on this part?

And mod3 is one that Ive done here and there, depending on how I use the particular car.
First off, the motors in Ideal TCR racing cars (not the jam cars), Ideal slotted cars, some tyco command control racing cars and the Jeep-type HP2 chassis all use variations of the same mabuchi motor. usually the arm uses green windings but can be red in some cases. Those johnson motors are NOT the ones Im talking about here. It seems that the motor magnets are VERY comparable to whats in a stock tyco 440. I dont have a guass guage to prove out how equivalent they are, but what I do know is that theyre a LOT stronger than whats in any stock HP7. Ive been swapping those magnets into my HP7s and the difference will leave you wide eyed. If you're working with a wide gap gold or green arm HP7 motor then its a real screamer. Effectively, it puts the motor on par with a Tomy Turbo.

Dan, dont take my word for it, grab an already stout HP7 and try this stuff out for yourself. The magnet mod is probably best reserved as a hop up, but the first 2 should be standardized, in my opinion.


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## grungerockjeepe (Jan 8, 2007)

lenny said:


> You're kidding, right?? Dude, they probably made a 'few hundred grand' on the Speed Racer sets in the first few minutes they were available. And it all tied into their Speed Racer marketing scheme. And think back to the 'Cars' set they did. Believe it or not, that was a HUGE money maker!
> 
> 
> You'd be better off starting over. All of their chassis are public domain, the protection has expired. Even on the 440-2. If you're THAT ambitious, find a factory and send them the 440-2 to copy. It'll cost you roughly $15,000 for the tooling and stampings. The HP-7 is even cheaper to produce. Buying body molds doesn't buy you licensing. Body molds can be done for $4,000 to $8,000.
> ...


My point is, theyd make the same profit if theyd have just done a 1/43 scale artin set for speed racer and the rest. Id bet they only used the Tyco tooling since itd just gather dust otherwise.

Dan, clearly you know more about the business aspect than I do seeing as how youre in the middle of doing it yourself. Im full of ideas as opposed to experience. Truth is, if you were in the northwest you'd probably be armpit deep with my requests for a job!


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## lenny (Feb 29, 2000)

grungerockjeepe said:


> Mod 1: springs...


The shoes will be modified so that they have the spring, instead of the plate having the spring. Since this area wears out, it makes more sense to have it on a part that will be replaced anyway...


grungerockjeepe said:


> Mod2: gear saver


Already part of the plan


grungerockjeepe said:


> mod3: motors


Different grades of motors are in the works including a grade 45 neo motor.


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

lenny said:


> The shoes will be modified so that they have the spring, instead of the plate having the spring. Since this area wears out, it makes more sense to have it on a part that will be replaced anyway....


Dan,
I hope the plan is to make both the pickup shoes and plate compatibile with original HP-7 chassis, and to have those parts available seperately (in bulk). In this way, any worn out HP-7 chassis could be revived by simply swapping out both the shoes and plate.



> Different grades of motors are in the works including a grade 45 neo motor.


 Different grades of motor, and different grades of traction magnet would allow for a large variety of setups. I'd even include a "dummy" traction magnet to allow the chassis to be used without any downforce.

Joe


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## Montoya1 (May 14, 2004)

I think DC has that covered too Joe!


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## grungerockjeepe (Jan 8, 2007)

Grandcheapskate said:


> Dan,
> I hope the plan is to make both the pickup shoes and plate compatibile with original HP-7 chassis, and to have those parts available seperately (in bulk). In this way, any worn out HP-7 chassis could be revived by simply swapping out both the shoes and plate.
> 
> 
> ...


Likely, the pickups would work on older HP-7s with some mods. I know what he's talking about, it'll be like the pickups on the tyco command control and TCR jam cars. I kinda doubt he's going to offer the plates themselves in bulk, but maybe he'll have them on his parts list.

I remember Dan saying he's going to have brass wieght kits for making slider type cars. This interests me WAY more than the super sucker versions although Im sure Ill have some of both.

What I want to see addressed is the wheel issue. Tyco really dropped the ball on the standard 5 spoke mags used on the HP2 and HP7. They lack detail, are hard to repaint and the overall design doesnt make much sense. It'd be idiot-simple to do a slight re-tool on and repop all the variations AFX made. Ive managed to mod HP2 and HP7 chassis to accept tomy rear axles fitted with classic AFX 5 spoke wheels and the fronts just pop right in. If dan were to make a kit that had a set each of the Ansens, 5 spokes, T/As, turbines, and stockers modded to fit tycos Ill bet he'd be doing all he could to keep up with the demand. The shoulders on the insides of the wheels need to be adjusted or shaved clean altogether, depending on the application and the rears just need to be drilled/molded to fit the smaller diameter tyco axles. Which would allow sneaking them onto lifelikes also. And if thats not enough motivation, some direct repops for restoring or upgrading older AFX's, and tomys as well as customizing his versions of the turbos would only double that demand. 

If you guys like that idea, be sure to voice your approval. Dan seems very willing to listen to us and if he knows the demand is there then the response will come accordingly. 

And Dan, anytime your ready to move to Oregon or Washington and hook me up a job, Id be happy to be your idea man!


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## grungerockjeepe (Jan 8, 2007)

So you guys DONT like the idea of being able to get set of repopped AFX wheels to restore and customize your cars? And to upgrade those tycos?


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## grungerockjeepe (Jan 8, 2007)

mking said:


> though i do have to admit the pick up system & front end assembly of the curve huggers leaves something to be desired


Agreed. But there are 2 ways to correct it. The main problem is that the pickups dont have the range of motion to fully retract into the assembly and so the front wheels drag the rails. Those 2 brass tabs on the newer models are the first culprits. The front one has to be bent back to curl around flat and lay parrallel to the track. Then the rear tab has to be filed down, which is easiest if you first razor off a thin layer of the little 'buckets' that hold the springs and file them down together. Only takes a few minutes to do this. Then you flatten the pickup as much as you can using a pair of pliers and you have the pickup system the way it SHOULD have been done all along. On earlier Curvehugger setups, the spring bucket has the brass lining inside so you have to just file it down but at least there's no brass tabs to fool with.

The other way to REALLY rock an HP-2 is do the same process on the pickup assembly but then do away with the pickup skis and springs altogether. The problem with the stock setup is that continuity from the pickups to the brush barrels has too many interruptions. So get a spool of desoldering braids from Radio shack and make your own pickups. I curl mine around the little tabs that contact the brush barrels (sometimes those tabs are broken, and this method salvages an otherwise junk pickup assembly if not TOO much of the original tab has broken off), run it over the top of the brass plates, and down thru the front opening in the pickup assembly. The only issue here is that the front axle is right over the braids, so Ive been sleeving the front axles with plastic tubing on the outter ends. This works great on LWB HP2s but for the SWB, its too tight for the axle to turn freely. Im going to try insulating the braids with a couple pieces of lexan rather than the Billy Bob method of using electrical tape. When you go to braids on the HP2s and Curvehuggers the amount of power gained is incredible!


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## tjettim (Nov 29, 2005)

What Mattel needs is a new car.The Hp7 platform and even the HPX440
are so outdated the average racer won't bother with them.Low mass and
a low center of gravity is in,modern magnet materials are cheaper and
stronger.The Super G+ showed the advantage of a long narrow traction
magnet.A smaller diameter armature could realy boost the cars handling.
And make a bunch of bodies the young people identify with.


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

tjettim said:


> What Mattel needs is a new car.The Hp7 platform and even the HPX440 are so outdated the average racer won't bother with them.


 The idea behind a reintroduction of the HP-7 is to have a basic, simple, easy to work on chassis which can be put into the hands of someone new to the hobby and which runs good right out of the box. The idea is to make a good first impression.

The HP-7 has to be the easiest chassis to assemble and disassemble; it can be completely broken down without tools and (almost always) without cursing. It has no small parts to get lost and doesn't need the type of tuning necessary to get a pancake car running well.

To me, the HP-7 is the perfect introductory chassis, and one which I'm sure is enjoyed by many long time hobbiests. I like it a lot.

Not everyone wants a super speedster which sticks to the track like glue. For myself, I have no desire to run a car that's so fast I can't see it. But, to each his own. Variety is the spice of life (you can quote me on that).

Joe


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## tjettim (Nov 29, 2005)

Come on,when the 440 came out,nobody around here
bought HPs anymore.In fact,I don't remember anyone
successfully running a HP7 in a stock class at all.


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

tjettim said:


> Come on,when the 440 came out,nobody around here
> bought HPs anymore.In fact,I don't remember anyone
> successfully running a HP7 in a stock class at all.


Can't argue with that. If anyone does reissue it, I sure hope they make it interesting enough to stop the rolleyes it usually causes when brought up for discussion. Of course, then it wouldn't really be an HP7 anymore. :freak:


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## tjettim (Nov 29, 2005)

I have been looking through some of our old records
and remenising.We started a club in 1970.I have no
records before the G+,just memories.The magnum 440
took over after that in the stock class but a few G+
wins did pop up.Super Magnatractions also had a few
wins.Back when the Tyco Pro came out,the hobby shop
got in some Aurora Tuff Ones also.It was speed verses 
handling.Many gave up on the Tycos because the wipers
wore out so quickly.We went to a 100 ft 4 lane all banked
track just when the Riggens came out.They ruled until
AFX cars came out.The Riggens were still winning most
of the time and then we went six lane with flat corners
to get more people on the track.The Super 2 came out.
They sucked stock but everyone started puttimg the
older shoes on and they were competetive.The flat
track phased out the Riggens.Then the Magnatraction
cars came out and ruled the roost untill the G+ showed
up.On the 22 foot track the magnatractions suprisingly
still won a few races.Alot of the early Gs had misaligned
motor bushings and were slower topend.Once sorted
though,a G+ with an Indy body was the way to go for
a long time.


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## tjd241 (Jan 25, 2004)

*I'll quote ya Joe....*



Grandcheapskate said:


> reintroduce an easy to work on chassis... runs good right out of the box... make a good first impression.


_Game... Set... Match_ IMHO. You want fannies in the seats? ... Do this and you'll eat the other guy's lunch. You cannot sidestep initial quality and expect too many accolades down the road. nd


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## tjettim (Nov 29, 2005)

Does anyone remember the Maxx car?


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## Montoya1 (May 14, 2004)

The Jim Russell car?


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## tjettim (Nov 29, 2005)

Yep,wouldn't make a lap.


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## rudykizuty (Aug 16, 2007)

Interesting discussion…… it’s made me curious about something.

Setting aside for a moment the performance aspects of the HP7, is it possible that the reason experienced slotters are less interested in it is, as Joe has pointed out, the ease at which it can be maintained? In other words, how much does the skill required in keeping a more complex chassis in good running order matter to those with long time experience in competition, or the hobby in general? Is it that it's thought of too much as just a "beginner's" car?

Thoughts?

I have to admit, other than the SG+ F1 cars I have, I like the lone HP7 I have best of all. The speed seems truer to scale and I like the slider action when it maneuvers through the curves. Of course, being that I AM a newb and have only been in the hobby less than a year, it’s probably no surprise that ease of maintenance has a certain appeal to it. I would be very interested in acquiring more to run as I develop my "pit" skills with my other cars.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

Racers want speed and a large selection of aftermarket speed parts. The HP7 is not in active production, it's not fast, and aftermarket speed parts are basically non existent unless you really dig. If all of those things were addressed, especially the active production part, I'm pretty sure they would find a place. But I wouldn't place too much emphasis on whether they are popular with racers as long as you enjoy running them with your group. There are plenty of cars available today, like the XT, LL, Turbo, SG+, etc., that aren't run at the big national races.

I've never felt that complexity was an attractive virtue with anything. One could argue that the SG+ and Tyco 440 are needlessly complex and I would tend to agree. The can-on-a-cracker design of the HP7 does emulate one of my all time favorite chassis, the Boss Riggen. However, the HP7 has always struck me as a chassis produced with one thing in mind; to minimize the cost of the chassis as much as possible. As long as it moved the car it was good enough, and Tyco didn't expend a whole lot of energy taking it beyond its minimalist design.


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## tjettim (Nov 29, 2005)

My opinion also.My first HP7 lost it's body when crashed,and then
blew a gear.Spare pickups were hard to get. Can motors are hard
to service and heavy.On 12 volts though, many of these cars can
be fun to drive.Paint some cars lane colors and have an Iroc race.


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

AfxToo said:


> But I wouldn't place too much emphasis on whether they are popular with racers as long as you enjoy running them with your group.


 This is exactly the point of remaking the HP-7. It is not directed at those who want the ultimate in speed, downforce, etc. It is not meant to compete against them. It would be directed as an introductory chassis, as well as those whose tastes do not include the mega-magnet chassis.

Pancake chassis are great, and I love them too. But it takes a certain amount of commitment to get and keep them running well. It's not like it was in the 60s and 70s when a lot of kids had slot cars and you could learn to work on pancake cars with your buddies. Now you have to figure that a kid, if he gets a slot car set, is pretty much on his own to learn. Giving that kid an easy to use, easy to maintain, chassis is the only hope this hobby has of attracting youngsters. Give him a chassis that needs a lot of work to run well (let's say a JL or AW T-Jet or XT) is a sure way of losing that kid quickly.

For me, just running around my track, by myself, the HP-7 is great. Granted, there isn't a lot you can do to it, but then again, there's not a lot you HAVE to do to it. And I love that. You either like it or you don't.

If you like to race garbage trucks and somebody says that his Ferrari could beat you in a race, of course he's right. But the point is you like racing your garbage truck against other garbage trucks.

Can a lot of different chassis beat an HP7? Of course. But that's not the point. The point is do you like running them and are they fun to race against each other.

Joe


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## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)

Grandcheapskate said:


> . . . _*If you like to race garbage trucks and somebody says that his Ferrari could beat you in a race, of course he's right. But the point is you like racing your garbage truck against other garbage trucks*_.
> 
> Joe


Now _THAT_ is a great quote. :thumbsup:


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

rudykizuty said:


> Setting aside for a moment the performance aspects of the HP7, is it possible that the reason experienced slotters are less interested in it is, as Joe has pointed out, the ease at which it can be maintained? In other words, how much does the skill required in keeping a more complex chassis in good running order matter to those with long time experience in competition, or the hobby in general? Is it that it's thought of too much as just a "beginner's" car?


 I would venture to say that a lot of the appeal of a pancake chassis, whether T-Jet or AFX, is in the fact that tuning of those chassis is big part of the enjoyment and challenge. Sure many like them because of the more realistic speeds and lack of magnetic downforce. However, there is a wide range of performance that you can get out of a pancake chassis based on your tuning skills. Therein lies the challenge.

The HP7 is great at what it is designed for. Ease of maintenance and consistancy of performance. Because of that, it is very possible that those who like to tinker and tune cars may find the HP7 boring and not worth the time.

It all comes down to what you are looking for in a chassis and what market you are trying to address and what need you are trying to fill..

Joe


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## rudykizuty (Aug 16, 2007)

Grandcheapskate said:


> If you like to race garbage trucks and somebody says that his Ferrari could beat you in a race, of course he's right. But the point is you like racing your garbage truck against other garbage trucks.


Yeah 'doba, that IS a good one. Thanks, Joe :wave:


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

Mattel is in a unique position because it has the resources to dominate the slot car market if it really wanted to. Unless you've been asleep at the wheel for the past few years you may have noticed that digital has caught on in the larger scales, and caught on in such a way that commands much higher priced sets (and profits) for the manufacturers. Mattel has the financial and technical wherewithal to bring digital to HO. Ironically, a modified HP7 type of design would lend itself to digital control better than many other designs because it leaves real estate under the body to add the necessary electronics. The RaceMasters Mega G could also work as could the Life-Like T. 

The one thing that would really help with digital control and potentially bring more realistic speeds to HO would be a smaller form factor motor. Even the HP7 and Tomy "cans" are too large. The standard arm used in the Mega G extends outside the extent of the motor magnets. Chassis and body designers are virtually begging for a new form factor motor when the current ones don't really fit into their current generation designs without compromises. 

The digital control part, even on HO, is not that hard from a technology or fabrication perspective. The recipe is already in place thanks to mature, proven technologies like CAN (and others). There are CAN chips needed for control and transceivers needed for power line communication available in sizes that would easily fit "under the hood" of an HO slot car. Chassis like the HP7 would be more accommodating, more so if the motor didn't take up so much space. If the current HP7 design were modified to use a split-axle front end setup like the Aurora G-Plus and Life-Like T the necessary electronics could certainly be located in the space between the front wheels. 

What would be a serious challenge in HO, unlike the larger scales, would be a kit that allows digital control to be retrofitted into existing cars. Could be done by hobbyists, but don't expect a kit.

While the technical part of Digital HO is straightforward, the manufacturing pieces would be more of a challenge. A company that has experience in electronics manufacturing and embedded software development, say through RC products, would be at a distinct advantage. The lane switching track pieces would be needed too. I can think of few companies other than Scalextric, Mattel, and Tomy (the real Tomy not the small piece of Tomy we see through RaceMasters) are positioned to pull off the total solution (cars, track, and controllers) in HO. 

Frankly, I would be surprised if one of the companies capable of doing Digital HO is not already working on it because the solution is very straightforward and entirely doable with technology that has been around for more than a decade. If they are not, it's probably due to them determining that it's too small of a market for the investment. I contend that with the proper use of existing technologies the up front investment is not as large as they think, especially if they reuse current electronics manufacturing capability. The beauty of HO is the fact that you get a ton of racing into a small amount of space. Since most of us will never be allotted larger houses without paying dearly for them, the race-per-space situation will never change and there will always be a market for HO. 

Mattel, wake up and smell the money!


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