# Tekin vs Novak ESC



## darksider5

Just wondering if the Tekin is that much better than a Novak GTB ESC.At our local track most of us are running Novak and have one car that is running a Tekin and is running times in the 17.5 gearbox class as fast as some cars in the 13.5 direct drive class.If the speed control is that much better then I will buy one,just trying to figure where all the speed is coming from.He is only on the thottle for about half the straight away and then is off and then brakes for the turn because he has so much speed then hits the throttle coming out of the turn then lets of and coast's past everybody.


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## tweakedt3

There is alot to a gearbox car, if built right can be as fast as a dd car. Compare apples to apples. Tekin has the hotwire option which is nice.......


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## Jesse Bean

I give the edge to the tekin b/c the foot print. not really head and shoulders above the gtb but such a compact unit and the hot wire is tits!


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## darksider5

So there is not a huge difference in speed between the two of them?This car has a lot of people scratching there heads,I would say if this car ran a straight line with another car for 200 feet it would win by 75+ feet.If not speed control is there that much difference in motors?I'm new to brushless but I thought they were all somewhat close.


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## hankster

I would guess it is not the ESC that needs to be looked at.


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## tweakedt3

You can build a gearbox and driverrain that spins forever. Or he has a big motor in there pulling the wool over everybodies eyes.


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## CClay1282

Are you guys all running the same motors?


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## OvalTrucker

I would suspect a motor inconsistency. To put it nicely.


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## ToddFalkowski

You're not going to find that any production brushless ESC is gonna put laps on another one. The LRP currently has the most timing advance. Novak and Tekin, I believe, are at the same point (again, production models). Where the Tekin stands out is footprint (like Jesse said, as well as the hotwire capability). Tekin is also upgradeable with downloadable updates.


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## darksider5

All 17.5 some are Novak some are Trinity,his being a Trinity.Nothing is even in the same zone.Everyone is just trying to figure out what he is running that is so much better so we can get it and be a little more competitive but he is as fast as us and at least half again.I thought all this stuff was supposed to be close to the same.


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## ToddFalkowski

OvalTrucker said:


> I would suspect a motor inconsistency. To put it nicely.


LOL! Kinda what I'm thinkin...


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## ToddFalkowski

darksider5 said:


> All 17.5 some are Novak some are Trinity,his being a Trinity.Nothing is even in the same zone.Everyone is just trying to figure out what he is running that is so much better so we can get it and be a little more competitive but he is as fast as us and at least half again.I thought all this stuff was supposed to be close to the same.


You were told wrong... sorry.... It's a stone myth that brushless is going to make for an IROC-style race. If anything, it's made it more of a chassis-tuner's game. Setup is more critical (IMO) on the brushless motors than it ever was on brushed motors.

By the way, the Trinity-based are outrunning the Novaks pretty handily on the ovals.


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## darksider5

We all understand that setup and driving is very important.Myself I could use a lot of improvement but there are other guys that run a much better line and cleaner laps only to be lapped many times because of outright speed.I never like to say someone is doing something they should'nt and I always try to improve my driving and equipment but I as well as others are at a loss as to what equipment to get.


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## OvalTrucker

Next time you are at the track with this fast guy, go check out what he's got. We can beat this issue like a dead horse and not get any answers until you see what you are running against.

You'll find one of two possibilites.
1. He's running a totally legal setup and you have alot of homework to do or maybe some new equipment to buy.

OR,

2. He's running a illegal setup and he has some new equipment to buy.


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## signman501

Might want to see if that motor came out of Putnam's shop.


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## darksider5

The motor is one of Putnams.Are they that much faster?If so then Novak might as well stop selling motors because they are not even close to the same thing.This car is so fast that he only hits the throttle for half of a straight away and coasts the rest and then is all over the place in the turns and still runs way faster lap times than the guys that run a good line.


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## OvalTrucker

If that motor is legal at your track. Then I guess you have to go with option #1 in my post above.


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## darksider5

Sounds like it.It's really hard to believe that there is that much difference in motors,I guess Novak better start doing a lot of homework because if thats the case there motors are'nt even in the same league.Guess I'll be calling Todd Putnam Monday morning.


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## crewchief

We started running putnam's 13.5 w/tekin rs in d.o. edm,had novak motors and esc all outdoor season,last night at bumps n jumps in pa.,we tq'ed by a lap ,only to have bad luck in the main w/a lapper while leading. 2nd qual. was all novak and he did run some faster laps then us but we really nailed the set-up also a putnam chassis, gearing what we were running compared to novak guy was so different its really wierd! My point is there seems to be alot more choices as far as rollout and timing with brushless its crazy.We are still new to brushless and after talking to todd putnam on the phone helped me understand a little more about it, and just the fact that you can leave the motor and lipo batt. in the car all day is awesome.


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## OvalTrucker

I'm not sure Novak has to do any homework. They set the standard and have an incredibly loyal customer base here in the midwest and elsewhere too. Especially with the brushless equipment. The other companies have done what they are supposed to do too - they made a product that is faster although that doesn't do any good for the racers when you have to buy a new motor every time company X makes a motor with the same "specs" and is faster. 
Faster motors are not always the answer. Like you said about this guy with the faster motor - he's having trouble putting a clean lap together and is just really faster down the straight's. It's easy to make a car go fast in straight line.


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## darksider5

Yea sounds like the same old money game as it's always been.I got out of the hobby for about 7years and then heard brushless would equal things out but I see it's still all about the money.It's no wonder why you don't see young kids starting out in novice classes anymore it's cheaper to just buy a video game and stay at home.To bad money is ruining a whole hobby.I just hope I can make some of the money back I have wasted in trying to get back in a hobby I started out haveing so much fun at.


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## hankster

If what you claim that the car is 30% faster then all others then I would guess that it has NOTHING to do with the motor. One Novak motor of a like wind IS NOT that much faster then others. As you have been told before, look elsewhere.

One other possibility is that a few Novak motors got out to customers that had wrong wind in them. You can check the inductance of the motor to make sure it has the proper winds.


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## CClay1282

hank, he said that they have open motors. You can run whatever motor you want as long as its xx.x winds.


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## hankster

Yes, and if that 17.5 Novak motor is really a mislabeled 13.5 motor I suspect it would run 30% faster then a 17.5 and be as fast as the 13.5 direct drive motors.


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## nutz4rc

Hate to say it but just like the fact that all brushed motors are not equal even if they are the same type, ie, stock or same turn mod; same is true of brushless. Also batts can make a big difference. Are you all running the same type, ie, 4 cell NIMH or Lipo or is it a mix? All these things can make a huge difference.


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## kevinm

Are we comparing a 17.5 on 6-cells/LiPo to a 13.5 on 4 Nimh cells? If so, I wouldn't be too surprised if the gearbox car with the 17.5 was _slightly_ faster on the straights than a 13.5 pan car on 4 cells. But if his turns are as messed up as you say and he still kills them on the straights, I'd say someone should be shopping for a cheap LCR meter to check his motor (or ask me how to build a simple resistance tester). Also, the Trinity motor design has completely removable ends with the windings in the center section, so you don't even need a soldering iron to put the 17.5 red color ends on a 5.5 turn motor and have something that LOOKS legal.


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## Promatchracer

darksider5 said:


> running times in the 17.5 gearbox class as fast as some cars in the 13.5 direct drive class.


Please give more info 
Like Kevin said is it a 4 cell vs 6 cell 
types of cars 
There is something missing somewhere


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## harringBONE

i can tell you right now this guy is not the kind to be doing anything illegal...


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## josh1_420

the cars being compared are a 17.5/lipo gearbox and 13.5/4 cell dd.I understand that more voltage is gonna give you more power but with the type of laps this guy is running the is no way he should be putting up the lap times he is with a 17.5/lipo gearbox car.I can believe a 17.5 gearbox/lipo could be slightly faster in terms of staight away speed but 13.5/4 cells usually run alot cleaner a smoother through turns.And on top of it all the gearbox is 3/4 of a pound heavier.This gearbox has way more speed than the driver knows what to do with he hits the throttle for half the straight and brakes in the turns still almost hits the outside wall in the turn and he still runs the same lap times as a 13.5/4 cell.Other guys in the gearbox class that are running alot cleaner a smoother and can only get 3.5 lap times this guy is running 3.3s and sometime 3.2s.Also took a look at his car last week his gearing is way off compared to the other 17.5 gearbox cars he's running around a 100 spur with a 55 pinion everyone else is starting at around a 80 spur with a 55 pinion which winds everone else's motor right out most have gone up with there pinion.I do expect him to slow down though the track owner is getting an inductance meter sometime soon souly because of this car.


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## darksider5

harringBONE said:


> i can tell you right now this guy is not the kind to be doing anything illegal...


What guy are you talking about?


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## Todd Putnam

I found this thread and thought I would address it with facts instead of opinions. :thumbsup:

The racer that this thread is speaking of is Ned Vanderwerken. Let me give you a brief backround of Ned...

He has been around full scale racing for 40+ years. He is an extremely accomplished combustion engine guy, and has built many race-winning engines dating back to the Tommy Corellis/dirt mod days. As of late, he is most recognized as Brett Hearn's former "at the track" engine and carb guy. He no longer works with Brett, as he now has some engines on the NE truck circuit and spends his efforts tuning and traveling on occaission to the races where his engines compete. Point being, he's a very established racer.

Now, for his R/C equipment: He has had me build, setup and maintain the majority of the cars in his fleet. In fact, he even owns the EDM that I club raced the majority of the 2008 season. His cars are on my scales and surface plates weekly, and no stone goes unturned. He spends whatever it takes to have the best equipment, for himslef, me or any other driver he lets run for him. He attacks R/C racing with 110% devotion- week in, week out.

Every motor that he has in his arsenal is one of our full-blown blueprinted and dyno-tuned brushless motors. Every one of his packs are cycled, and he only races the best packs. 

The program he has assembled is second to none. 

Let me also make one additional point. I am all for the Lipo/Brushless movement. The misconception that all motors, speed controls, and packs are close in performance is just that - *a total misconception*. The majority of the racing community is aware of this, and Ned and I have worked extremely hard to eliminate all performance variables. There is no gray area regarding any of Ned's cars, speed controls, motors, or batteries. Simply put, there are no faster speed controls, motors, batteries, etc; than what Ned has assembled in his arsenal.

As for anyone who may have insinuated that he is cheating, I am sure he will let you tech anything he has - even welcome it. He works harder than any 2 racers I know, and the results show this. 

I hope this clears a few minds. Besides, it's a lot cheaper route to cheat than the path Ned has chosen - and both my accountant and I can attest that the path Ned has chosen to win isn't a cheap one...:thumbsup:

If I can be of any assistance to help anyone find some speed, feel free to contact me.

Regards,
Todd Putnam
Putnam Propulsion
518-452-0422


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## KDarc

Does not appear by the names dropped that he likes to hang around SLACKERS!


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## Tommygun43

Todd,

Ned is MUCH slower since the motor in question "blew up". It was really humorous watching his car.

Everyone should have just kept quiet until the motor was checked for inductance.


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## josh1_420

he slowed down once an inductance meter was mentioned by the track owner.also tommy if I kept my mouth shut the inductance meter would not exist Ned is the main reason they got that thing.There is no doubt in my mind that he was Cheating I know you can build a fast motor Todd I've been in the hobby for quite awhile too but theres no 17.5 out there that can turn the rpms that motor was turnin.One other thing that is humorous he acts like a 12 year old girl if you get him 2 laps down.


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## Todd Putnam

Inductance away - he will pass with flying colors. I check each and every one of our motors on my LCR meter for inductance as well as guass each rotor - it is part of my blueprinitng process. I just may have some insight to why he was faster, and I can assure you that in no way shape or form was he cheating by the rules. 

To educate you guys a bit, I have had Ned testing prototype Lipo batteries at RCH before they were available to the general public, had the Tekin 1.89 upgrade installed prior to being available to the public, along with many other areas we are testing that I do not care to disclose. 

I have seen as much as a 15-20 watt difference when dynoing brushless motors. As a brushed comparison, the difference between the best and worst brushed motors was about 5-7 watts. As a benchmark, 27 turn stocks are about 80 watts, a Checkpoint 19 turn is about 100 while the Hemi-wound Komodos are about 115. 

I can't understand how a thread can have this many posts, and has rec'd this much energy but yet _*not one of you*_ has approached him regarding his car, nor had his car protested. If you feel certain he is/was cheating, and strongly enough to crucify him on a public forum over the fact you "think" he is, maybe someone should have stepped up and protested his car at the track first - or at least approached him and asked why he is so much faster - he probably would have jumped at the opportunity to tell you what he was running. 

Let's not forget that when he TQ'd and his car was teched, it passed. 

I do expect that his speed has decreased since the conclusion to some of our testing. We have learned that you can't run a motor at 50-60 degrees of timing with a pack that produces more than 2 tenths of a volt more than any other currently available pack, without smoking the motor every 1-2 runs. :thumbsup:

Next time before you crucify someone, maybe approach him or protest him at the track first. It would save all of you and him some unneccessary embarrassment and apologies.


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## Todd Putnam

Tommygun43 said:


> Todd,
> 
> Ned is MUCH slower since the motor in question "blew up". It was really humorous watching his car.
> 
> Everyone should have just kept quiet until the motor was checked for inductance.


Tommy, see my above post. 

I know you have been running BL for a while, but based on your post, may not realize how much these can actually vary. 

Shameless plug / infomercial / education time: There were (2) Putnam motors @ the ROAR Region 1 Carpet Oval Regionals @ The Toybox. They qualified 1-2 and ran 1-2, and Pace was accused by others of cheating. He wasn't.

At the Cleveland Indoor Champs, our motors swept, were thought to be illiegal, were torn down, inductanced, etc; and were found to be perfectly legal. 

Point being, brushless is far less work than brushed, and I love and embrace it. Are they all equal - uh, no, far from it with a performance variance 4 times that of brushed. 

I hope this helps shed some light on everything.:thumbsup:


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## Racin'Jason 8

T.P - 

This may be a question for your thread, but...what would you say is the biggest contributing factor to the variance that you have been seeing in Trinity's BL's? The reason that I ask is because we have never seen such a difference in motors unless they were mismarked by NOVAK - which I only am aware of two cases. Not diggin' for any proprietary knowledge...just wondering how such simple motors can be so different. We have found weak rotors can be just as fast with rollout adjustments so that leads me to believe that the quality of the wind tells the story? Thanks in advance for anything you're willing to share.

Josh, 

Ned is quiet...but really a nice guy when he wants to speak! You guys don't have enough racers to handle this in the way you have been. Talk it out with him. Maybe he'll bring some friends up if they hear good things.


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## josh1_420

well if everything you say is true then he has been cheating if they were prototype lipo batts then that is cheating since rch only allows roar approved lipo's.also we did say something to the track owner about his car but at that time there was no way of check inductance since they didnt have an lcr.Once the owner gotan lcr meter his car fell off by five laps on average compared to what he was running.I dont see any problem with the speed his car puts out now since its nothing compared to what it was before.Also I have really no interest in talking to ned so ask what he is running but have over heard other racer's ask him and his exact words everytime are "If I knew I would tell you".


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## josh1_420

jason
we had the racers they all went to s & h before they left they could'nt come close to keepin up either.


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## josh1_420

harringBONE said:


> i can tell you right now this guy is not the kind to be doing anything illegal...


just wanted to add one more thing nobody said anything about cheating or running illegal till this guy said something he runs down at s&h and nobody mentioned a name the driver or a track till you todd.


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## Dan

Clearly if you reduce Todd's post, to the relevant sentences, it
just goes along with what we should know already....
If you take 500 motors... there is one that really stands out.
If you take 1000 batteries... there is one that really stands out.

Some of us buy one motor, and one battery.
We play the cards that we're dealt.
Others... get the 500 motors, and the 1000 batteries...
Same game.. just played differently..

It's not cheating.
Speed cost money.... how much do you want to spend?

Read the shorter, edited version:


Todd Putnam said:


> The racer that this thread is speaking of is Ned Vanderwerken.
> .....he's a very established racer.
> 
> Now, for his R/C equipment: He has had me build, setup and maintain the majority of the cars in his fleet...... He spends whatever it takes to have the best equipment..... He attacks R/C racing with 110% devotion...
> Every motor that he has in his arsenal is one of our full-blown blueprinted and dyno-tuned brushless motors. Every one of his packs are cycled, and he only races the best packs....
> The program he has assembled is second to none.
> 
> The misconception that all motors, speed controls, and packs are close in performance is just that - *a total misconception*....Simply put, there are no faster speed controls, motors, batteries, etc; than what Ned has assembled in his arsenal.
> ..both my accountant and I can attest that the path Ned has chosen to win isn't a cheap one...:thumbsup:
> 
> Regards,
> Todd Putnam


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## Todd Putnam

Jason,

I believe the largest contributing factor is in fact the windings, assuming that the laminations are all made from the same material and that there are equal number of laminations from motor to motor, etc;

Here's the kicker: If you disassemble one of the top wattage-producing motors, they don't necessarily have the lowest, (or highest for that matter) inductance. 

We have found a correlation of data between components that, so far, yields more, higher performing motors than if they were just assembled randomly. 

As you and I have discussed in the past, there are many variables with any mass-produced product. Once guys spend a little time and effort to educate themselves and figure out what makes them tick, performance envelopes will be pushed, all within the constraints of the rules. 

A lot of what we are seeing is that the full potential of these motors is not unleashed as they come from the factory, much like an "un-tuned" brushed motor. 
My analogyy is this: If I returned to pan car racing today, and bought whatever car you are currently running, yours is tuned to be faster due to your effort and hard work. For me to scream, "But I have the same car as Jason" and expect it to be as fast as yours is ridiculous.

I hope this helps-

TP


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## nitro4294

*Looking at this from an outsiders point of view, I am going have to go with what Mr. Putman has posted.In my 20 plus years of playing this game, I have seen the difference between the guys that really work on their cars, look at every detail, and do maintenance during the week and the guys that pile their stuff in the corner and don't touch it till race day.
I have been in both camps, and I have found that putting some effort into this pays off on race day.This game is no different than racing full sized cars. It takes some effort amd this gentleman is beating everybody because he puts forth more than the rest of them. 
It's not about equipment, it's what you do with it.
Before you go calling a guy a cheater, make sure you know what your talking about.*


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## Razoo

He broke the rules running non-ROAR approved batteries, plain and simple. Theres no excuse for this as the track has the rules posted. His wins should be taken away as hes running in a points division with a cash prize as the payout.

"To educate you guys a bit, I have had Ned testing prototype Lipo batteries at RCH before they were available to the general public..."

Pretty much says it all.


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## Racin'Jason 8

Todd Putnam said:


> I believe the largest contributing factor is in fact the windings, assuming that the laminations are all made from the same material and that there are equal number of laminations from motor to motor, etc;
> 
> 
> A lot of what we are seeing is that the full potential of these motors is not unleashed as they come from the factory, much like an "un-tuned" brushed motor.


I believe this backs up what I was "thinking". Thanks for clearing the air. :thumbsup:

I look at it like this...

If NOVAK (our baseline of the original classes) had poorly wound motors but only a 5% tolerance that created close racing, then we would rightfully think of those as the golden standard for comparison. 

Along comes a mfg. with poor tolerances that someone figures out how to make every unit perform to its fullest within spec. and it looks "strange" - for better or worse.

T.P. - again, thanks for taking the time to explain.

Jason


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## darksider5

I started this post to find out if one part was better than another and if so get that part.Now that I find that someone is running illegal non ROAR approved parts I am very disapointed.These parts were used in a points series with cash and prizes involved and even if the parts were used for research it's still wrong they were not and are not ROAR approved period.For someone to do this is a disgrace to himself and the hobby we have enough problems trying to get more people in the hobby.As for Ned doing what it takes to win I see that every week as I have spent over $200.00 in broken parts from this car running over not around me and up until now I just excepted that as racing but now that I know what I do I am over the top POed.WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Todd Putnam

Josh,

Let me clear up a few things:

-According to Ned, the fastest he has run is 84 laps - which Dave Lareau has run as well in the beginning of the season. To quote Dave, "I changed my car all around and now I'm not as fast..." It appears as if Dave could compete, and beat Ned - Dave also has an incredible program and works very hard to go fast. If he was retired as Ned is, I am sure he would devote even more time than he already does.

-We have run 88 laps in 27 turn stock pan car there with 4 cell 3300's. 84 laps with a 6 cell/or lipo with today's equipment is not unheard of. In fact, I would think that if the track had ample bite, the gearbox cars should actually be faster than 84 - but I am speculating.

1)-The prototype pack is ROAR approved. You probably already know this, since you have raced for quite a while, as how things actually work re: ROAR approvals: Example: There were 4-5 different versions of the IB 4200 cell, with each new version of the cell obsoleting the last - all in the exact same blue IB 4200 shrink. This scenario also took place with the IB 4600's, 3800's, and virtually every other cell that has been ROAR approved over the last 2 decades. What is on ROAR's approved list has very little to do with what is actually inside the fancy "ROAR Approved" packaging... 

2) Another point I was attempting to make is if you start a thread asking if there is a performance difference of a Novak vs. a Tekin, (which there is a significant difference) but you have to ask since you don't know, how can you honestly judge the performance of _any_ of his equipment? Are you an expert on every other aspect of his racing equipment except speed controls?

Let me ask you a few questions:
1) What do your packs cycle out at? Runtime, voltage @ every 30 seconds, average voltage and resistance. At what temperature? Charge rate? Discharge rate?

2)How much timing is in your motor? How much timing advance in is your speed control? How many watts does your combination make on the dyno?

3) How much do you change your rollout with variance in voltage, resistance and tire wear?

4) How many RPM's do ceramic bearings add to your motors, and how much do you need to change your rollout to compensate for this increase?

The list of my questions could go on and on. Point being, there are many, many variables that govern how fast or how slow we go.

It appears based on your recent posts that you have a personal issue with Ned - maybe I am wrong - but you appear to be spending more effort on tearing him down rather than working hard, as he has done, to catch yourself up. You never mentioned his name, but when I did, you made a personal attack on him. Again, appears you have a personal agenda-

I understand how frustrating it can be in racing when someone is faster than you. Nothing in racing comes easy, and everything has it's cost. Again, I can offer to help you out if you want to focus your efforts on catching up in a positive manner vs. trying to paint a negative image of someone who is faster, and who is also my friend. 

If you wish to contact me, and keep it off public forums, you can PM me here or call the shop M-F, 9-5 EST.

Todd Putnam
Putnam Propulsion
518-452-0422


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## Todd Putnam

Razoo said:


> He broke the rules running non-ROAR approved batteries, plain and simple. Theres no excuse for this as the track has the rules posted. His wins should be taken away as hes running in a points division with a cash prize as the payout.
> 
> "To educate you guys a bit, I have had Ned testing prototype Lipo batteries at RCH before they were available to the general public..."
> 
> Pretty much says it all.


It's perfectly legal if it is already on the ROAR approved list- :thumbsup:


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## Dan

nitro4294 said:


> It's not about equipment, it's what you do with it.


Please.
That is so cliche.


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## Todd Putnam

Li - PolyTrinity IP 4200 mAhHW2S4200V1/TRI20551November 3, 2008Li - PolyTrinity Intellect IP3800CC2S3800V1 - TRI20620April 16, 2008Li - PolyTrinity IP 3200 mAhHW2S3200V1/TRI20550November 3, 2008Li - PolyTrinity IP 3800CC2S3800V3/TRI20807November 3, 2008Li - PolyTrinity IP 4600 mAhHW2S4600V2/TRI20552November 3, 2008Li - PolyYuntong 5000YT90018June 2, 2008


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## darksider5

If they were not available to the public then how can they be ROAR approved and how is that fair or legal it's just wrong.this is a points series with money and cash involved we all need to have the same parts available.As for Neds laps I believe he has the track record of 85 laps and when Dave stopped racing at RCH he was no competition for Ned.Todd if you saw this car the way it was running before it was unbelievably fast,we didn't even have enough time to get out of his way.I have not used the word before but he was outright cheating plain and simple no question.I do not have the experience in RC that a lot of you have and nowhere near as much as you Todd but I can tell when something is not right and that car was not right no matter how many hour or days he spent on it.I'm not the only person that has said something about this car it has been widely talked about.All I'm looking for is a level playing field and it has not been.The car did slow considerably when the threat of an inductance meter was brought up.I'm sure there are ways to get an illegal car thru tech but I'm nao that knowledgeable nor do I want to be I feel good every week when I go home knowing that I didn't break or bend any rules.


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## josh1_420

Alright let me put it another way rch allows any roar approved 7.4v lipo not any roar approved 7.6+vlipo.Plus racing any equipment that other people cant buy themselves is cheating anyway you look at it todd.


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## Todd Putnam

What part of ROAR- approved don't you understand? 

The battery was submitted to ROAR and approved before we rec'd it, obviously. I rec'd (2) packs the day after they were released, as it takes one day for my shipment to arrive vs. the 3-4 days it takes for the distributors to receive them, then the additional shipping time for the dealers to receive them from the distributors. Anyone could have ordered them directly from Trinity if they had their fingers on the pulse of what was on the horizon...

Whatever Ned utilized for his racing has been perfectly legal, by ROAR and by RCH. If you feel otherwise, then your issue is not with the racer, but rather with the race track. If you had this strong of feelings then, you should have adressed it at the track, not on the internet. 

Again, the car was teched and deemed legal after one of his TQ's by RCH, according to whatever rules they had in place. If you are unhappy with the rules that were in place, again, it sounds as if you have to take it up with RCH, not Ned...


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## josh1_420

Todd Putnam said:


> Josh,
> 
> Let me clear up a few things:
> 
> -According to Ned, the fastest he has run is 84 laps - which Dave Lareau has run as well in the beginning of the season. To quote Dave, "I changed my car all around and now I'm not as fast..." It appears as if Dave could compete, and beat Ned - Dave also has an incredible program and works very hard to go fast. If he was retired as Ned is, I am sure he would devote even more time than he already does.
> 
> -We have run 88 laps in 27 turn stock pan car there with 4 cell 3300's. 84 laps with a 6 cell/or lipo with today's equipment is not unheard of. In fact, I would think that if the track had ample bite, the gearbox cars should actually be faster than 84 - but I am speculating.
> 
> 1)-The prototype pack is ROAR approved. You probably already know this, since you have raced for quite a while, as how things actually work re: ROAR approvals: Example: There were 4-5 different versions of the IB 4200 cell, with each new version of the cell obsoleting the last - all in the exact same blue IB 4200 shrink. This scenario also took place with the IB 4600's, 3800's, and virtually every other cell that has been ROAR approved over the last 2 decades. What is on ROAR's approved list has very little to do with what is actually inside the fancy "ROAR Approved" packaging...
> 
> 2) Another point I was attempting to make is if you start a thread asking if there is a performance difference of a Novak vs. a Tekin, (which there is a significant difference) but you have to ask since you don't know, how can you honestly judge the performance of _any_ of his equipment? Are you an expert on every other aspect of his racing equipment except speed controls?
> 
> Let me ask you a few questions:
> 1) What do your packs cycle out at? Runtime, voltage @ every 30 seconds, average voltage and resistance. At what temperature? Charge rate? Discharge rate?
> 
> 2)How much timing is in your motor? How much timing advance in is your speed control? How many watts does your combination make on the dyno?
> 
> 3) How much do you change your rollout with variance in voltage, resistance and tire wear?
> 
> 4) How many RPM's do ceramic bearings add to your motors, and how much do you need to change your rollout to compensate for this increase?
> 
> The list of my questions could go on and on. Point being, there are many, many variables that govern how fast or how slow we go.
> 
> It appears based on your recent posts that you have a personal issue with Ned - maybe I am wrong - but you appear to be spending more effort on tearing him down rather than working hard, as he has done, to catch yourself up. You never mentioned his name, but when I did, you made a personal attack on him. Again, appears you have a personal agenda-
> 
> I understand how frustrating it can be in racing when someone is faster than you. Nothing in racing comes easy, and everything has it's cost. Again, I can offer to help you out if you want to focus your efforts on catching up in a positive manner vs. trying to paint a negative image of someone who is faster, and who is also my friend.
> 
> If you wish to contact me, and keep it off public forums, you can PM me here or call the shop M-F, 9-5 EST.
> 
> Todd Putnam
> Putnam Propulsion
> 518-452-0422


Ned hold the track record with 85 laps when the season first started he was running around 80 Dave at the begining of the season was running around 83 to 84 the reason for this was the cars were equal in speed but Dave has the ability to drive the hell outta his car ned does not have that ability.(If you wonder how I know this when the season started I was'nt running in EDM but was planning on getting one so I kept track of the class) around week 4 ned came out with and his car was so fast he could barely get it to go straight that is when Dave started changing things on his car but he never actually slowed down Dave continued to run 83 to 84 laps until he started going down to s&h.
1.)Ok the pack is roar approved but is it legal to race in competition before it is availible to the public no is this pack availible to the public now?If somebody......Say I went to a roar event with this prototype lipo and raced and won then I told them what battery I was using and that it was not availible to the public along with other things that were'nt availible would I be givin that win?
2.)As for performance yeah I'll take your word for it that the tekin is better I run a novak esc and motor and I've never used a tekin rs esc or a trinity motor so I cant say how much better one is than the other and maybe bl system all created equal but from what I have read on here and other place's alot of team racers do say they are atleast in the same ballpark I'll give you .1 sec. per lap running the 2set ups with 2 equal drivers add that the battery that it appeared he was running which looked like and smc 5000 28c pack thats what thought he was running and thats what Dave thought also.......one more quote to add here "I got my $$$ handed to me last week by an smc so thats what I am running this week" the week prior to makeing this remark Dave was running a Maxamps 4200 35c lipo he also tryed one of your motor in his car the only thing he had that was different was an lrp esc.So no I'm not an expert when it come to anything in rc but any idiot can watch one guy who is fast and drives a great line get beat by a guy who is extremly fast that cant control his car at all and know somethings wrong.
Now for the questions.
1.)This is will be a short answer I dont know.I cycle my lipos by racing them and from what ned says at the track thats the way he does it too one more thing I over heard "I've never discharged or cycled my lipo with my charger"This was a couple months ago so maybe he changed his method.
2.)How much timing do you get with a novak motor when it is cranked up......thats how much I got.I run a novak esc and as far as I know theres no timing boost on that.
3.)Dont quite understand exactly what your asking here I charge my battery between every race so its the same voltage everytime I take it out the only time the voltage changes is when I'm racing it.rollout really has been the only thing that I have to experiment with at this point I've got my car setup pretty good I have'nt changed anything on the setup in a few weeks now everything is very smooth and maintained so the onlything I have to experiment with on race night to get everything but my lap times dnt ever really change.
3.) dont know

I dont really have anything against ned I just dont like the way he drives if you go high for him to get around you in a turn up until Dec.5 his car was so fast he could'nt control somebody trys to race clean but they end up broken in the pit because he cant be patient.We are all in this hobby to have fun its kinda hard to do that when you are racing with someone who doesnt care about anything else but winning.

And yes it is frustrating knowing I've been racing in a class with someone who is breaking the rules if I had known I could run whatever I wanted I wouldnt have the equipment I got now.


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## Todd Putnam

Oh, and Josh, you still haven't provided me with any answers, so I am assuming you do not know the performance of your equipment either? Let me know-:thumbsup:


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## josh1_420

whats the product number for the battery?I cant find any battery on there site that is 7.6 volts.


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## darksider5

Lets put this way Todd you did not see Neds car run at the times we are talking about so you really can't say a whole lot about it.The car had something illegal thats for sure.Neds driveing ability is not that good and if it was that car was over a 90 lap car,he was always on the verge of out of control,and if you heard the motor he had in you would have known.I never wanted this to go this far this thread has been dead for a month and since the motor we all had in question is no longer in his car and things seem more legitimate now then we just let it go.As for Neds integrity thats another question after this past weekend and his actions at the track he showed that he is no kind of a sportsman.As for parts he was running being ROAR approved if they were and were available for me to have in my possession at the time he was running them then I would say they were legal,I will do some research and find out some dates of approval and when I could get these parts in my hand.That being said I know that there was something not on the up and up.I know you and Ned are friends and nothing will ever convince you that he did anything wrong but all of the people that saw this car run agree.And by the way I started this thread and I do have a personal problem with Ned when he purposely wrecks you just to win and when he can't win pulls his car from the track and packs up and leaves without turn marshaling leaving it to me and my son who is not supposed to because of a physical disability he really showed his behind and thats putting it as nice as I can.with as much as you say Ned has done he should have tried to get some morals and a little good etiquette.


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## KDarc

Post #35 tells the story. The question really is why RCH let this go on for more than one week. They are a couple of itelligent people who run that track and I am going to play devils avocate and say they wanted to meter than accuse or tech accurately. As for Ned. I don't know the guy but I will say this, nobody needs to be treated like this by anyone on public forum. This should have been done in person at the track between the people involved when it was happening. I would recommend this thread be done with. It will only hurt a division of this hobby locally that is already under stress. Learn from this and voice your observations to the people involved at the time it is happening. No facts or truths come out this way. Just broken friendships and another nail in the coffin of oval racing around here.


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## Razoo

I introduced myself to Ned a few months ago at RCH and hes a very nice guy and very approachable. If asked he'll tell you anything you want to know-IF he knows.
Ned is not a set-up man. As Todd said earlier, Ned drops his car off to him and Todd does all the work. Neds just a driver. 
Statements such as:
"To educate you guys a bit, I have had Ned testing prototype Lipo batteries at RCH before they were available to the general public..."
Are very, very misleading. Anybody would interpret this as to say these batteries are illegal. (Ken and Al will have the final say). To say this car was teched and passed is true BUT I've seen the way the cars are teched at RCH and its a joke. Batteries are not checked for voltage and the motors aren't even taken apart. So what was teched? This is an on going problem there and has been one of the reasons for poor attendance.
I was at S&H the day Neds motor burned up. All I know (and everyone else who was there) is that saturday at RCH he was 4-5 laps slower with a new motor. We'll never know anything about the burned up motor. 
So Ned if I insulted you, I apologize and will apologize in person also. But something seems very fishy here.
I think RCH needs to have a motor and battery rule like they have in Spec.-this will eliminate many problems but not all. They might even want to try true motor and battery techs once in a while also!!


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## OvalTrucker

Razoo said:


> I introduced myself to Ned a few months ago at RCH and hes a very nice guy and very approachable. If asked he'll tell you anything you want to know-IF he knows.
> Ned is not a set-up man. As Todd said earlier, Ned drops his car off to him and Todd does all the work. Neds just a driver.
> Statements such as:
> "To educate you guys a bit, I have had Ned testing prototype Lipo batteries at RCH before they were available to the general public..."
> Are very, very misleading. Anybody would interpret this as to say these batteries are illegal. (Ken and Al will have the final say). To say this car was teched and passed is true BUT I've seen the way the cars are teched at RCH and its a joke. Batteries are not checked for voltage and the motors aren't even taken apart. So what was teched? This is an on going problem there and has been one of the reasons for poor attendance.
> I was at S&H the day Neds motor burned up. All I know (and everyone else who was there) is that saturday at RCH he was 4-5 laps slower with a new motor. We'll never know anything about the burned up motor.
> So Ned if I insulted you, I apologize and will apologize in person also. But something seems very fishy here.
> I think RCH needs to have a motor and battery rule like they have in Spec.-this will eliminate many problems but not all. They might even want to try true motor and battery techs once in a while also!!


This could possibly be the most sensible/realistic post in this entire thread.
Thank you Razoo.

Excuse me while I go pop another batch of popcorn.


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## Dan

darksider5 said:


> I started this post to find out if one part was better than another


Did we ever get a dialog going on JUST this?
No personalities.... no accusations....
is the Tekin faster? Novak?
Let's hear from guys that have run both..
I'd like to hear 'bout those experiences... :thumbsup:


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## darksider5

RCH does have a battery rule for lipo it is 7.4 volt and no more and as stated by Todd himself in an earlier post Ned was using batteries that were 2 tenths of a volt more than any other currently available pack.


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## josh1_420

KDarc said:


> Post #35 tells the story. The question really is why RCH let this go on for more than one week. They are a couple of itelligent people who run that track and I am going to play devils avocate and say they wanted to meter than accuse or tech accurately. As for Ned. I don't know the guy but I will say this, nobody needs to be treated like this by anyone on public forum. This should have been done in person at the track between the people involved when it was happening. I would recommend this thread be done with. It will only hurt a division of this hobby locally that is already under stress. Learn from this and voice your observations to the people involved at the time it is happening. No facts or truths come out this way. Just broken friendships and another nail in the coffin of oval racing around here.


um once again todd through the name in there its kinda funny this thread was started nobody knew what track was being discussed or driver somehow by reading through people figured out who we were talking about seems kinda strange that without a name 2 people knew ned and knew he was fast than any 17.5 should be.

KDARC
we tryed taking care of this at the track and we never put anyone name on here if your unhappy about the way he is being treated then take it up with todd this thread was DEAD FOR A MONTH till todd got on here and confirmed that ned was cheating.


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## darksider5

When I started this post I had a legitimate question because I was and still am new to brushless and lipo,I never mentioned any names and never said anything then about cheating.As the thread progressed people knowing the car in question revealed the name.I just wanted to find out what parts to buy that would put me on the same page as far as parts then I could tune my car and driving skills from there.As things progressed on the thread things were brought out that through no fault of mine I believe should now be addressed at our track.I only started to respond to post on here after certain people tried to justify what was done and make me out to be the bad guy and all I did was ask a simple question.I admit I did believe in my own mind that something was up with the car but did not say that until things were revealed on this post.Like I said I'm going to see if this problem can be taken care of at our track and to date have still received no real answer to the original question.


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## KDarc

josh1_420 said:


> um once again todd through the name in there its kinda funny this thread was started nobody knew what track was being discussed or driver somehow by reading through people figured out who we were talking about seems kinda strange that without a name 2 people knew ned and knew he was fast than any 17.5 should be.
> 
> KDARC
> we tryed taking care of this at the track and we never put anyone name on here if your unhappy about the way he is being treated then take it up with todd this thread was DEAD FOR A MONTH till todd got on here and confirmed that ned was cheating.


Josh, point taken. I would feel the same if it was you being ripped apart and I don't know you either. The whole situation was handled wrong from the beginning. Razzo hit it the nail on the head!:thumbsup:


Oval Trucker: The popcorn statement is some funny sh-t right there! :thumbsup:


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## hankster

Looks like this thread has run it's course


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