# Super International



## manalex (Dec 28, 2005)

*Super International on a 4X8*

Given all the info on this forum I suspect I've come to the right place. I just purchased the Tomy AFX Super Inernational Challenge, in part becuase of many of the comments on this forum, and thus far my son and I are enjoying it thoroughly. However, it appears that none of the 15 sets that you can build will fit on a 4X8 piece of plywood-I'm sure you are all aware of this. 

I went ahead designed a track that uses all but one of the tracks included in the set, in addition, I would also need to purchase a few others to complete the design. My desire was to use as many of the tracks that came with the set as possible, and minimize the number of additional tracks I would need to buy in order to complet the design. 

Can you take a look and let me know your thoughts with respect to the design? First, I would like to know if it will work, that is, fit together as shown. I've included a picture and parts list of the tracks used in the design. If my design is valid, it appears that I'll need to find, purchase or trade for about eight more tracks (2 straights and 5 curves). Also, any suggestions you may have to improve upon the design would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance and I'm looking forward to building my track with your help,

Alex


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## JordanZ870 (Nov 25, 2004)

Nice!
If I were stuck with a 4'x8', I would run as much straight as I could on the diagonal for the longest length. (my back-straight is almost 17') SG+ cars need a bit of room to breathe. Your layout would be GREAT for Tjets & afx/xtrac type cars though! Looks great!


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## Heliopolis (Nov 24, 2005)

Let me preface my comments by saying that I am a novice, and have yet to build my first layout. I'm sure you'll get some good replies.

Being that your goal is to get the most efficient use of the International Set, I suggest that you take a look at the Tuckaway 25 on Gregory Braun's Web site. The url is http://www.hoslotcarracing.com. Click on Layout on the left hand side.

This layout requires eight additional track pieces, and fits on a 3'0" X 6'8" door. Even though it's smaller than your 4 X 8, it has a longer straight away. It also has no over passes, which is one of my goals for my first layout.

Everyone has recommended to me that I drive a layout for a while before mounting the track permanently. I'm sure you should do the same. Let us know what you decided. -- Greg


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## T-jetjim (Sep 12, 2005)

Joez- How about posting a pic of your track with the 17' straight?

Jim


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## manalex (Dec 28, 2005)

Thanks for the responses and insight. 

I saw the Tuckaway 25 and liked the longer straight away, but what turned me off to it was the differing lane lengths. On my design the calculations show the lengths to be the same-this happened purely by accident-but it was nice that it worked out that way.

I also prefer the longer straight aways, a diagonal run would be perfect, just couldn't come up with one that worked which used all of the track available. Also, I don't mind the over passes, actually prefer them. The added dimension adds to the overall look of the set. 

Thinking a bit more about this, it seems that the ideal track on a 4X8 would have many curves with a diagonal straight away elevated throughout most of its length.

I need to get this mounted and elevated quickly-I have kids, 5 small ones, and if its not nailed down, glued down or screwed down, it will break.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

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## TK Solver (Mar 18, 2004)

Don't worry about using all the track pieces to make a four-lane layout with the SI set. Better to have a smooth-driving track that lets you vary your speed several times per lap. I'm concerned that your current layout would result in just a single burst of speed on the straight. Other than that, you're just holding the controller steady to make it through all the turns safely and that's not as fun.

Consider going with the Oak Creek 36 layout on Braun's site and just have two lanes to get started. The racing will be smoother and your stock controllers will last longer and/or you will have two spares handy. The controllers are the weakest link in that they are most likely to be the first part to fail. You would just need to buy one 15" track section. If the track continues to be a hit with the kids, you can feel confident going out and buying more track to build something like the Ravinia 35.

That Oak Creek layout looks very fun to drive.


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## Manning (Mar 2, 2004)

A few comments......Already been said by Too and TK, but worth emphasizing......

*Don't worry about lane lengths, period.....

*Make as long a straight as possible, whether diagonal or along one edge, just do it. No matter what you do, a 4x8 doesn't allow for much of a straight. Your good running cars will be at full throttle for only a tiny bit. The slugs will be at full throttle for a while.....

*Break up the corners so that you aren't just holding the controller in one position. Use different radius corners, and put some straights between them so you can work the throttle..


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## manalex (Dec 28, 2005)

Okay, here's another design. Actually like it better. A couple of minor issues, two tracks in the original set are not being used and I still have to get four more curves. 

On this design the straight away runs diagonally which is a vast improvement. It's also elevated over the entire length. The track lengths are not the same, but given what AFX Too said, that's less of an issue or me now. Take a look and let me kow your thoughts.

One more thing, as on the orignal design, the program didn't quite fit the ends of the track together-how much should I worry about this?

Again thanks for your interest.

Alex


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## TK Solver (Mar 18, 2004)

*Two straights*

I'd be concerned that your drivers won't like having just one straight and then a bunch of noodles.

My diagram shows the center lines of the two tracks so each colored line represents two lanes. This layout gives the drivers two chances to get on the gas a little with each getting a turn on the outside at the end of the straights. One straight is 66" and the other is 57". The slop at the ends is a managable 0.88". I'd keep both straights on the table and elevate the short crossover. There are 6 J's, 4 I's, 2 E's and 1 H left over. The track piece sequence is in the text file. You can reposition the terminal tracks to fit your area.

All in all, I still think I'd prefer to drive the fast two-laner on Braun's site.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

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## roadrner (Jul 21, 1999)

Consider this. I bought two of the International sets when I built my layout on the 4' X 12' table. This gave me all the extra pieces I needed for a independent powered four lane trackwith the long straights I was tying to setup. Additionally, I had cars to sell (since I'm not into the Formula style cars) and track pieces to trade or give away as needed. After pricing out component pieces, this was definitely the better way to go from a cost perspective. Definitely made the track cost minimal once getting rid of the cars and some of the track. :thumbsup: rr


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## manalex (Dec 28, 2005)

I think the attached design incorporates most of the features previously discussed with the limitations of the 4X8 board. Didn't use 5 curves that came with the International Super Challenge set and have to get 8 straights and 2 curves more to make it work. I like the two diagonal straight aways. Your thoughts and comments are welocme.

I'm about half done and getting to the wiring stage. I think that I'll power each lane independently by using two extra terminal tracks and power supplies. Any advise here would also be welcome.

Ebay seems to have everything I need pretty cheap-if there is any place else I should look, please let me know.

Alex


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## JordanZ870 (Nov 25, 2004)

Now that layout looks like it would be fun to run!
Looks like there is plenty of room for gradual elevation changes too. It should be smooth and fairly fast! Nice work!


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## Manning (Mar 2, 2004)

4 independant power pack is definitely the way to go. If you use the terminal tracks, cut the common tabs from the terminal tracks to make them completely independant. Will eliminate the power surge problem when one car comes off.....

Looks like you used nearly all of the 6" radius corners. May I suggest trading some of the 6" curves for something bigger? At least the ones at the end of the long straight that will be elevated. A long straight going downhill into a hairpin 6" corner will be torture for a good running pancake car (i.e., fast with little braking power). You may spend a lot of time putting cars back in the slot......Even the SG+ cars can have some problems with the 6" corners if not carefully aligned and the rails smoothed out.

Looks like a 9" corner will fit at the end with the two 3" straights if you juggle the long straights around a bit....

And avoid using the 90 degree 9" radius corners, they are actually something considerably less than 90 degrees. I have some big gaps in my track because of them. Really need to be replaced with the 45 degree corners.

One more thing......grind down the locking tabs on each track piece before you get to laying track. There will be big bumps at each track junction if not perfectly aligned. And you will have pieces that won't align well......


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## Heliopolis (Nov 24, 2005)

Manning said:


> If you use the terminal tracks, cut the common tabs from the terminal tracks to make them completely independant. Will eliminate the power surge problem when one car comes off.....


Is cutting the common tabs really necessary, if you are using one terminal track, one controller, and one power supply per lane? -- Greg


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

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## Heliopolis (Nov 24, 2005)

Sorry to keep beating a dead horse, but you're saying that this setup would not be without surges when a car deslots, unless the common is cut? Correct? -- Greg


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## roadrner (Jul 21, 1999)

Heliopolis said:


> Sorry to keep beating a dead horse, but you're saying that this setup would not be without surges when a car deslots, unless the common is cut? Correct? -- Greg


Yes the commom needs to be cut from the lane not in use for the respective terminal track. rr


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## Heliopolis (Nov 24, 2005)

Thanks guys. RR, your specific comment about "from the lane not is use" made it click with me. -- Greg


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## manalex (Dec 28, 2005)

I was reading Grag Braun's web site and he mentions "4 inch Cove Molding" to create the retaining walls for the over passes. I'm not sure what this is; I went to Home Depot and they had what they call "Cove Molding", but it was not what was described on the web site. I didn't know enough about the product to describe it to them. Can you use foam board? Where can I get the cove molding?

I'm also having trouble finding the No. 3 flat head wood screws. The local Ace has No.2, but not long enough. Lowes and HO only go down to No.4-way too big. Any ideas on that?

Also, thanks for the clarification on the terminal tracks.

Alex


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## Slott V (Feb 3, 2005)

I believe Cove molding is a rubber base board. Comes in rolls or sections in a number of colors.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

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## TK Solver (Mar 18, 2004)

That McMaster site is a good one. They also carry little thread cutting/forming screws that could be used for JLTO body screws, although the jaghobbies price is slightly lower on those.


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## manalex (Dec 28, 2005)

What is the maximum incline/slope for a smooth run on an AFX track. I'm estimating about 15-18 inches for every inch increase in elevation. I searched under "slope" and "incline" but didn't get any relevant hits.

By-the-way, McMaster is awsome-put in an order today and you get your parts tomorrow with no shipping costs-an advantage to being in the same city as thier distribution center I guess.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

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## manalex (Dec 28, 2005)

Thanks for the link. Some of those layout's have pretty extreme "dives" and "ramps". I guess it requires some drving skill to keep the speed up and the car on the track. 

What will make me happy is a smooth track. I figure the smoother, the faster the cars will run. Since I'm not going to be melting any individual AFX tracks into odd shapes I was looking for a rule of thumb that allowed for the smoothest ride, i.e. minmize the clickety-clack while racing.

I started to layout the last design I came up with and the issue came up with respect to the curve at the end of the straight away. It looks like the rate of rise on this portion of the track will be greater than expected. Since it is a rather tight area I thought I would ask.

It's good to be able to ask a queston and get a quick reply about issues such as these.

As always, thanks

Alex


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

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## manalex (Dec 28, 2005)

I'm pretty far along now and I need a bit more help. As it turned out I needed to change my design slightly, but it looks as though it was for the better. Even though the Tracker 2000 program told me my layout shouldn't work, it did, not perfectly, but well enough to run pretty smooth. I think the program doesn't take into account elevations changes properly-just a guess, I could be wrong.

I've included some pictures just to show you how far along I've gotten. The most difficult part is keeping the kids off the track while it's still under construction. Still a lot of work to do, but it's coming along pretty well. 

Other than the update, the reason for the post is a few questions I need answered to finish out the electrical:

1) I want to include a power timer for the track. Since I'm a novice when it comes to electrical work I thought I'd seek advice here. The timer will be used to shut the track off after a certain period has elapsed. The kids tend to use the track then simply walk away after they are done and leave all the power on. I'm not sure this will hurt anything, but I prefer all the power off if no one is present. Should the timer shut the track down during use, then who ever is in the room would simply recycle it to turn it back on. I have a light switch from Home Depot that works this way, I thought of incorporating this switch some how. Note that I have 4 wall warts, one for each lane.

2) I would like to add reverse switch to EACH lane. As I understand it this is the only way to do it when you have independent power supplies, and that's okay. The problem is that I've wired for brakes and that's the part that is throwing me off. How do I need to wire the lanes so brakes work in both directions? Note that I rewired the stock controllers to use stereo jacks. An article on HO world says that you need to add a switch to turn off the brakes when you reverse the track-I want to avoid this.

As always, thanks for the great advise.

Alex


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

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## manalex (Dec 28, 2005)

Thanks for the advise on TrackMate. I'll look into it. Lap timer is on my list of to-do's. Any ideas or suggestions regarding the wiring?


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## okracer (Mar 11, 2002)

why cant you just wire a timed light switch into the outlet you are pluging the wall warts into


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## manalex (Dec 28, 2005)

Essentially that's what I was looking to do, except I want to make it a bit cleaner than that. I was thinking of installing the switch between the 2nd and 3rd driver stations. Also, all the wiring would be contained under the table, i.e. single power cord out of the table, wall warts and all underneath. 

Just wanted to make sure their wasn't a better way.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

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## manalex (Dec 28, 2005)

Can anybody help with the wiring for the reverse switch?


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## Manning (Mar 2, 2004)

manalex said:


> Can anybody help with the wiring for the reverse switch?


Here ya go.......

http://www.professormotor.com/wiringschematic3.shtml


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## manalex (Dec 28, 2005)

You da man!


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## Nightshade (Jan 15, 2006)

So....If you cut the common on a terminal track, then you have just effectively powered one lane. You just have to have a power source and a terminal track for each lane?

Along that thread.....if you run your power supply to a terminal strip and come off of that to your terminal tracks...then can you double up on terminal tracks per lane and place them equally in a couple spots in the layout and thus have created a couple taps for each lane?


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

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## Slott V (Feb 3, 2005)

If you plan it carefully you can do multi-power taps from a central grid that distributes feeds evenly across your track. It may look complicated, but if you break it down to the basic elements it's fairly easy to understand. I can almost guarantee that once you get racing you'll want to do away with those stock controllers and hook ups. Take a look at what I did for power distribution:

Here's the basics of the power panel:









Here you can se an early set up with 1 wall wart per lane that hooks into separate fuse blocks. The red wires are the positive leads. The wires below negative. From those feeds you would run to your lane stations or controllers hook ups. There you would hook in reverse switches. The output from your controllers would then feed back to the multiple screw terminals above, for each lane.









Here you can see some of the power feeds going to the track. Pay careful attention to rail power, with the left rail always negative. (the power and return outputs from the controllers still aren't wired in.) The reason there are multiple terminals is so you don't wad up too many connections on one terminal. You could consider all the terminals a "buss" the way they are bridged together. The white wall wart is just 1 of many for lighting or accessory hook ups.









Here is the final, more advanced set up we run on my track. The Lambda filtered power is piped into the negative feeds, and the positive is fed into a relay, and then bridged across the 4 fuse blocks fro the old wall wart set up. The relay allows Track Call switches, On/Off Control and computer control of the track through a 4 position switch. The secondary outputs coming out of the relay box come off the second set of NO/NC contacts on the relay. This controls track position lighting we have around the track when the track is COMPLETELYOFF/OFF WITH RED LIGHTS/COMPUTER CONTROL/ON. (red, yellow, green) The relay defintely adds complications to the project, but it gives you ultimate track control.

You can see the whole power conversion I did years ago on my website:
http://www.supervipersystems.com/VargoSpeedway/HO_Tech/Power_and_Wiring/power_and_wiring.html

-Scott V


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## T-jetjim (Sep 12, 2005)

Scott - very clean work. Don't look under my table!!!

Jim


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

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## Nightshade (Jan 15, 2006)

I think I'll make copies of these pics and tell my electricians I'll buy them lunch if they wire it up.  

That way I know I don't make an executioner's chair. I hate to see my 5 year old running around with his hair standing straight up....although I could have some fun with my 15 year old..... :thumbsup:


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

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## Slott V (Feb 3, 2005)

I wish we all lived near each other- I'd come wire your track Nightshade. :dude: I'm lucky in that I understand most electrical issues, except when it come to big 3 phase 240/480 stuff. I even like dabbling in electronics but didn't get farther than the NAND/NOR gates logic stuff and timer chip functions in my Radio Shack book.  

After I wrote the thing about the negative rail being "left" I realized it boils down to the direction you want, but in general it means left rail when your car is facing in the forward direction on the track. When dealing with multiple power taps you need to pay attention to this or you'll have shorts. Professor Motor gets into logic on this in his electronic controller area of his website and calls it "positive polarity". If you put direction switches in your wiring you have to make sure you are flipping the output after the controller and NOT before.

BTW- this is how the wiring used to look on my track for years until I revamped it:


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

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## Scafremon (Dec 11, 2006)

manalex said:


> I'm also having trouble finding the No. 3 flat head wood screws. The local Ace has No.2, but not long enough. Lowes and HO only go down to No.4-way too big. Any ideas on that?


What size screws did you end up using?


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## manalex (Dec 28, 2005)

Finally found some No.3s, went with those, they fit perfectly-Sorry, it was a while ago and I can't rememebr where I got them.

Alex


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## Dunk2011 (May 21, 2006)

my fron strech isnt even 8ft


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## Scafremon (Dec 11, 2006)

manalex said:


> Finally found some No.3s, went with those, they fit perfectly-Sorry, it was a while ago and I can't rememebr where I got them.
> 
> Alex


Thanks Alex. I think I'm going to try using the #4 screws, and posted a thread here regarding it.


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## hotrod 32 (Jul 20, 2006)

Just did a track with #4's into plywood. I used a dremel bit which allowed opening the holes to countersink the screw heads flush with track. I just have to color the hundred+ screws. 
BTW my layout fit 4x8 with only 2/3" straights and 10 curved pieces left over. There is room for more straights in the infield section, after xmass.


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