# A WHITE finish....AHHHHH!!!!!!!



## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

*HELP!*

OK...I'm a BUILDER......so after the interior details, super detailing and lighting is done ...for me...most of the thrill is gone.

I'm at the point where its time to start painting my current project and the final finish will be satin or semi gloss *white.*

When it comes to GLOSS, SEMI GLOSS and (some) SATIN finishes like Red, white or yellow is where I have had issues in the past....flats...NO PROBLEM....So...Is there a brand or type of paint that you have used with good results and no hassles when it comes to WHITE? maybe even from a rattle can? so far the primer is Rustolium grey auto primer....I'm pretty sure that is an ENAMEL piant correct? 

Any help would be nice.

Thanks dudes!


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## ClubTepes (Jul 31, 2002)

I hear great things about Tamiyas rattle can white.


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## Dr. Pretorius (Nov 17, 2000)

I like the Tamiya cans also.


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

Thanks!


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## PhilipMarlowe (Jan 23, 2004)

The Tamiya flat acrylic white is probably your best best for a smooth white finish, then gloss it up with Krylon or Future, depending on how glossy you want it to be.

White is hard, smooth and white is real hard.


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## MadCap Romanian (Oct 29, 2005)

I use Tremclad white paint. It's an Enamil that you can find at the Canadian Wal-mart for @4.55 - $5.00 a can.


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

I used Tamiya gloss white straight out of the can on my _Voyager_ and _Proteus_ models, and was very pleased with the results (it helps the application if you submerge the can in hot water a few minutes just prior to use). 

To achieve an even, smooth, new car finish I HIGHLY recommend going over the cured surface with polishing abrasives. I know there are many model builders who shudder in terror at the thought of sanding down (gasp!) a painted surface, but as long at that surface has been properly prepped the use of polishing abrasives is fun, easy and virtually fool-proof. If you're nervous about the results practice on a piece of scrap. I promise you'll see a big difference in the quality of the finished model.

BTW, if you want to achieve a semi-gloss without resorting to gloss paints this is easily accomplished via a combination of flat paint and polishing abrasives (see my _Seaview_ galery pix). In any case, unless you're dealing with top-of-the-line automotive products, DO NOT USE GLOSS COATS OVER A WHITE FINISH.


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## PhilipMarlowe (Jan 23, 2004)

Carson Dyle said:


> In any case, unless you're dealing with top-of-the-line automotive products, DO NOT USE GLOSS COATS OVER A WHITE FINISH.


Can you elaborate on that a little, Rob?


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## irishtrek (Sep 17, 2005)

You could always mix flat and gloss white to get a satin finish.


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

One of the biggest problems facing a white finish is yellowing. Clear glosscoats tend to expedite this process -- especially the cheap hobby-grade stuff. 

There's a common misconception that a clear glosscoat will make a glossy finish even glossier. That may be true if the initial (color) gloss coat has been poorly applied, but if you've taken care to lay down your color coat properly it shouldn't require any additional glossification (unless of course you're using flats). What a really smooth and even finish _will_ require is a good going-over with the aforementioned polishing abrasives.


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## PhilipMarlowe (Jan 23, 2004)

Carson Dyle said:


> One of the biggest problems facing a white finish is yellowing. Clear glosscoats tend to expedite this process -- especially the cheap hobby-grade stuff.
> 
> There's a common misconception that a clear glosscoat will make a glossy finish even glossier. That may be true if the initial (color) gloss coat has been poorly applied, but if you've taken care to lay down your color coat properly it shouldn't require any additional glossification (unless of course you're using flats). What a really smooth and even finish _will_ require is a good going-over with the aforementioned polishing abrasives.


Doh! I didn't think of yellowing! 

I have a LMG polishing pad system, I used it to great effect on my Mad Max Interceptor, but it never occurred to me to try it on gloss white for some reason. I'll have to give it a try, I've got several white models I need to redo because of yellowing.


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

BTW Troy, if the subject you're working on is the one I _think_ you're working on you'd do well to use an airbrush (as opposed to a rattle-can) in order to preserve the surface detail. On my _Proteus_ I had more latitude in this area owing to the curved lines and general lack of corners and small surface greeblies, but on your kit an airbrush would provide an extra measure of control.

In summation: get yourself a small can of quality automotive paint (I like DuPont) and an assortment of finishing abrasives.

Just my five 1/2 cents.


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## ShadOAB (Apr 29, 2007)

If you are airbrushing white...and want to avoid yellowing...then add a drop of clear blue to the paint.


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

Thanks guys! 

I like the idea of starting with a flat coat and polishing to the desired finish....thats what plan to do on my Flying Sub as well.

I'm on my way to pick up some Tamiya flat or satin ( if it exsist ) right now.


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## terryr (Feb 11, 2001)

Modern car finishes are a flat color coat and then a clear coat.


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## flyingfrets (Oct 19, 2001)

Fluke,

If you're gonna use an LMG (or equivelent) polishing system on a flat finish...particularly white, allow the paint to gas out thoroughly and then use the polishing kit under running water or at the very least, VERY wet. Flats tend to load up the polishing cloths quickly and if still tacky, you'll never get it out of the cloth which will make it unusable (you'll be polishing that color into whatever finish you're working on after that).

You could also destroy your finish altogether if the cloth loads up and you're still polishing away. Be sure to read the directions on the polishing set too. Most work best if each progressive grit is used in a different direction (across the grain of your last pass).

It's a great way to level "orange peel" finishes, but it's still better to aim for the smoothest finish you're capable of applying (and you're VERY capable...I've seen your work!)


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## rat salad (Oct 18, 2004)

I've had awesome results with Model Master White Primer (sprays on beautifully) and sealing it with Clear Semi-Gloss. Works like a charm!


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## irishtrek (Sep 17, 2005)

Never mind what I said earlier as gloss white will yellow even when mixed with flat white, was'nt thinking too clearly at the time. That said try mixing flat white with future floor polish, if done right you should end up with a decent satin finnish.


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## modelgeek (Jul 14, 2005)

Clear enamels will yellow ...Clear acrylics will not I sell paint for a living trust me on this one guys ... Jeff and a good automotive wax will shine that finish up real nice ...


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## flyingfrets (Oct 19, 2001)

trek-

I don't know if that mixture will get you semi-gloss, but the Future being clear acrylic might net you a semi-transparent paint.

The paint pigment is very fine to begin with and I wonder if there'd be *enough* to totally compensate for the clear.

I'd test this out on some scrap first....


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

OK guys....

The Rustoleum Satin White wins! 

With about 4 minutes between only 2 coats with good coverage and a nice finish. No polishing will be needed...I will cover with future, decal then seal using future again.

I will test with the decals etc etc...maybe tomorrow...depending on how the part tested with the rustoleum feels.

I should be careful...Iv'e heard that future can crack the surface of a uncured piant...though I have never had that happen to me before.

Hiya Frets! :wave: Thanks for the kind words!


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

I do not believe that all those IPMS dudes would dip thier canopies in future if they thought for one minute it would yellow.....never heard from anyone about 'Future' yellowing....though other clear products may do so?


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## flyingfrets (Oct 19, 2001)

Fluke,

Was the paint cracking issue you mentioned a case of Future applied over an enamel or laquer? That does happen frequently because the gas out period of the enamel/laquer is much longer (a week or more) than Future's (24 hours). If the Future cures and the paint underneath is not COMPLETELY gassed out (as opposed to "dry"...there's a subtle but important distinction), as the paint continues to cure, it releases gasses that are trapped under the acrylic. Eventually, it will rise through the Future and cause the "crackle" effect in your clear coat. I think the possibility is much smaller using Future over an acrylic paint because their gas out rate will be much more similar (even allowing for the difference in viscocity).

Man, I just realized how much otherwise useless knowlege I've picked up from this hobby...:freak:


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

Yeah....before all this I thought that 'Gas Out' was when your co worker let one go and the whole building had to be cleared! :tongue: 

I have heard that the cracking is when the clear coat literally pulls the uncured paint from the the lower surface causing a crackle like effect?


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## modelgeek (Jul 14, 2005)

Your right on that enamels need to gas out since they dry through evaporation.. acyrilics how ever dry through the colesence meaning that the molecules flaten out ..which is one reason future works so well at sealing decals in to any nooks and crannies on a kit ..Jeff .. Who thought that all that paint training would come in handy with models?


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## flyingfrets (Oct 19, 2001)

fluke said:


> I have heard that the cracking is when the clear coat literally pulls the uncured paint from the the lower surface causing a crackle like effect?


*That* scenario would be more likely if you applied an enamel, laquer or urethane top coat over a water soluble paint (acrylic, tempra, etc). 

In that case, the chemical base of the clear coat would disolve the paint - which once set will not disolve evenly...you'd have congealed little chips and balls of paint lifting off the surface. *NOT* a pretty sight...


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

Wow...a Model builder, a Guitar player and now a chemist! dude.....what else can ya do?


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## flyingfrets (Oct 19, 2001)

Well, on occassion, I actually *do* a few of those things...!!!


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

Say no more! nudge nudge, wink wink he says knowingly  

The *Rustoleum* is the BOMB! oh man... looking over the test piece again 4 hours after the two coats its beautiful and not even tacky! 

I'm still gonna wait two days before I decal or apply any future.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Okay, explain this - last night I put a second coat of Model Master flat white on Revell's old Convair shuttle concept kit. The first coat was perfectly smooth and left to dry 24 hours. The second coat - from the same bottle of paint, using Model Master airbrush thinner - dried looking like the cracked ground of a dried mud flat. :freak:


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

OUCH! That sucks!

It could be the same thing that Frets was talking about.

Testors 'enamels' can take 3 to 9 days to CURE....dry to the touch is one thing but curing is another when it comes to enamels.

But with a FLAT color...man thats weriod.

When it comes to enamel flats and airbrushing...I usually cover all my coats at the same session....for flats I have never had to come back for more layers....so far.


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## terryr (Feb 11, 2001)

The thinner reactivated the paint, and did something bad.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

^That's another thing that drives me nuts about airbrushing. The paint and thinner separate in the cup, no matter how much I stir! By the time I'm at the bottom of the cup, I'm blowing nothing but thinner. That's probably what happened here.


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

John,

If both products are indeed 'Model Master' brands....me wonders if the paint or thinner is old or wrong in some way? I have never experienced a seperation problem like that with enamals.

Man....one thing I do love to air brush is *HUMBROL*....that brand dries fast, smooth and even the gloss paints work well.

I'm lucky that my LHS carries the full line of piants like all the Tamiya paint brands, Testors - military, standard, Boyds Auto, metalizers and testors acrylic line plus the full line of Humbrol, Alclad II, pactra and Floquil.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Yup. Same paint and thinner used on both coats. :freak:


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## Mark McGovern (Apr 25, 1999)

Yeah but - if the paint and thinner are separating in the cup, then there's gotta be something wrong somewhere. Ordinarily you'd expect the paint to stay suspended in the solvent. I've had the heavy pigments in metallic paints settle some, but nothing like the issues you've described, John. Maybe some cleaner remained when you cleaned out your airbrush after the first application?

I've seen discussions about the yellowing of white paint elsewhere (_FineScale Modeler_, I think) where it was pointed out that light and/or heat will cause clear coats and white paint to yellow. My models are stored in the basement (due more to Mrs. McG.'s fiat than anything else) and haven't yellowed at all. Then again, there isn't much white paint to turn yellow, save items like Dracula's shirt or the sclera of some eyeballs...

Mark McG.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

I'm sure it all just falls under the heading "Nothing ever works right for John."


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

Now cut that out! there will be no self loathing here dude!

Damn it Jim! I'm a Doctor not a painter!


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## CJTORINO (Jan 20, 2003)

if I may chime in about white.......
Tamiya TS-26 pure white is probably the cleanest, non fading white I have ever shot. flows well, lays even and dries quickly.
The Tamiya TS-13 clear works real well with it, and doesnt yellow out the bright white.

a sample.......revell '67 Corvette:


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

Thanks CJ...btw the Vet looks SWEET! :thumbsup:


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## the Dabbler (Feb 17, 2005)

Nice finish on a nice 'Vette CJ !!


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## ClubTepes (Jul 31, 2002)

I have the absolute utmost respect for car modelers.

Car modelers have the hardest job in creating a realistic model because everyone knows what a car is suppossed to look like.


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## Mark McGovern (Apr 25, 1999)

John P said:


> I'm sure it all just falls under the heading "Nothing ever works right for John."





fluke said:


> Now cut that out! there will be no self loathing here dude!


Right you are, fluke! We're all John's friends here - we'll do the loathing for him. :devil: 



ClubTepes said:


> I have the absolute utmost respect for car modelers.


Me too - I think they should all be keep safe and secure and unable to do harm to themselves or others...:freak: 

Mark McG.


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## the Dabbler (Feb 17, 2005)

ClubTepes said:


> I have the absolute utmost respect for car modelers.
> 
> Car modelers have the hardest job in creating a realistic model because everyone knows what a car is suppossed to look like.


True. I definitely agree. They are a special breed ! But maybe we shouldn't let them ? (breed ) ??? :lol:


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## Mark McGovern (Apr 25, 1999)

the Dabbler said:


> ...But maybe we shouldn't let them ? (breed ) ???


Dabs, Dabs - we *need *the car modelers to keep buying gloss-finish paints so the manufacturers can stay in business to provide us with the flats. Or do you want to go back to the days when Testors had maybe two dozen colors in little square bottles?

Mark McGee, the horror...the horror...


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## the Dabbler (Feb 17, 2005)

OH My God ! What was I thinking ?? Car builders... go forth and multiply ! ! Buy those kits and paints, it's for a good cause...............we figure guys !!! :thumbsup:


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