# Smallest can motor assembly . . .



## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)

I'm sitting here and wondering what would be the smallest can motor assembly out there? What application would it be in and would it be adaptable to slot cars?

I was thinking N or Z-scale model train engines would need to be pretty small but I can't seem to find any sources online to even view one.

The reason I am wondering is because I always wanted to try an accurately sized HO sprint car or other open-wheeler with a really narrow chassis.

??????????????????

'doba


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## noddaz (Aug 6, 1999)

How about a Zip Zap type motor?
Of course 6 volts may be too much for them let alone 18 volts...


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## T-Jet Racer (Nov 16, 2006)

Just got an AW camaro from epay, it had a life like dot chassis conversion. the can in it looks pretty small


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

Dont quote me 'Doba, but I'm thinking that the train motors are engineered (no pun inteneded) more for torque than top end. I'm just lookin' down the track. Maybe they would work due to the fact that they wont be required to haul a bunch of freight, and you'll gain some R's. Heck might not even come into play on a short track where torque is the ticket. 

If I come across an N guage loco, I'll be sure and kill it, skin it, and let you know! Great concept 'Doba. It would really open some doors.

Bill


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## zig (Mar 11, 2004)

I looked into the same thing about a year age...

The Wingmaster sprint from HO Racepro uses a KATO n-scale train motor,and a GMP 1/50th scale diecast car.
When I started looking for one I soon learned that KATO is like the top of the line in n-scale trains and $alty! 
So I built my own wingmaster style car powered by a lifelike T Chassis motor.


The wingmaster is a 1/50th scale... I wanted to build a smaller one out of a 1/64th scale diecast car... that led to zip-zap motors.

I used the monster truck sized motor it runs pretty good on an 18 volt lifelike pack... but don't know for how long yet?

The tiny ones for zip-zap cars will really scream for about 3 seconds on the same pack...  They will need some kind of voltage regulator or voltage dropping diode because they were made to run on like 2 volts.
Radio shack has a 5 volt regulator but it's bigger than the motor .

I think the little motors were first made for use in pagers and cell phones to make them vibrate.

ZIG


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## grungerockjeepe (Jan 8, 2007)

You could always try turning a can motor up on its side if you need it narrower. Might create some height problems, but its an idea, anyway. OR, if you can score some fairly cheap, didnt the tyco motorcycles use some kind of narrow can motor? Never seen one up close.


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## mtyoder (Jan 3, 2004)

How bout a motor from a tyco motorcycle. Those are narrow xept for the brush tubes.


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## TX Street Racer (May 8, 2004)

I used to dabble with Zip Zaps and those types of micro RC cars 4-5 years ago. Radio Shack used to offer a hop up engine kit that included a motor known as the "NOS" (nitrous Oxide) motor. That motor was tiny, but powerful......in fact all of those little can motors were extremely small.

You'd definately have to design or build the car with the proper resistors or etc. ....otherwise these tiny motors would just nuke.


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## gear buster (Dec 1, 2005)

*small*

The smallest I dabbled a bit in was the LifeLike Tchassis can motor.
I have actually layed 1 flat in a JL tjet chassis. A little grindin here,cuttin there,and some tweeken and gear play to get it to line up. But presto.It fits :thumbsup: 
As TX said the zap motors are to small for the power.It would be like 3mile Island on 18 volts. Nuculer meltdown.


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## Pete McKay (Dec 20, 2006)

I have some old Z-Scale trains, pretty small in width but the arms are pretty long. These are some huge torque motors, not too much on speed. But the Zip zap motors are really durable, I've run the monster trucks on 9 volts before using aftermarket radio boards, talk about insane power and the Stage 2 motors will handle it if you can still find them.


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## videojimmy (Jan 12, 2006)

what resistor do you need to make a zip zap motor safe for slot cars?


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## T-Jet Racer (Nov 16, 2006)

gear buster said:


> The smallest I dabbled a bit in was the LifeLike Tchassis can motor.
> I have actually layed 1 flat in a JL tjet chassis. A little grindin here,cuttin there,and some tweeken and gear play to get it to line up. But presto.It fits :thumbsup:
> .


Do you have a picture of that chassis? I would like to see it....


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## Slott V (Feb 3, 2005)

I think you'd have to rewind those Zip Zap arms with heavier wire for 18v operation. Could be an interesting experiment.


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## zanza (Sep 23, 2005)

T-Jet Racer said:


> Do you have a picture of that chassis? I would like to see it....


I second T-Jet Racer too...

Gear Buster give us some pics of it


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## zig (Mar 11, 2004)

Slott V said:


> I think you'd have to rewind those Zip Zap arms with heavier wire for 18v operation. Could be an interesting experiment.


The one that I ran for about 3 seconds before it went POOF was disected,
It has no comutator brushes just wire springs to get the power to the com.

The com was OK... the little wire springs are what burned up!

I don't know if the bigger zip-zap motor for monster trucks has brushes or not, havn't disected one yet. But it really does run on 18 volts :thumbsup: 

ZIG


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## TX Street Racer (May 8, 2004)

gear buster said:


> It would be like 3mile Island on 18 volts. Nuculer meltdown.



HAHAHAH, now that's some picture that you've painted Steve :tongue:


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## zig (Mar 11, 2004)

*Kato Gm5*

Here is a KATO GM5 motor from an N Scale Train...









It probably is the smallest can motor that can handle the volts or HO Racepro wouldn't be using it in the Wingmaster Sprint. 

A lifelike T motor set on it's side will fit into the same 1/50th scale diecast car and probably turn a lot more RPM's

Zig


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## zig (Mar 11, 2004)

Lifelike T chassis motor / zip-zap monster truck / zip-zap car










In line Slimline anyone :tongue: 

ZIG


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## gear buster (Dec 1, 2005)

*can motor*

*Will post a pic tom.of the chassis. Need to get a clear shot ..*

This way the elders don't got blind trying to see the pic. 
ok where did the screen go:freak:


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## BKracer (Sep 25, 2005)

here's sumpun i stuck up here a while back,look in round 2/auto world pg6;"suggestion for tom lowe racing car release"page 3,#43.the chassis is a p-cicle stick and yes it runs!


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## f1nutz (Mar 26, 2007)

Cordoba
If you take a Tyco slot car motor assembly and glue the bulkheads and magnets together to make a pseudo can motor out of it you get a pretty small package if you trim the excess bulkhead parts off flush with the magnets. I started to make a more scale f1 car a few years ago that would have worked pretty well if I'd finished it. This assembly turned sideways might work for your sprint car idea. I wanted to also try a scale rail dragster but didn't get around to it.


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## noddaz (Aug 6, 1999)

*z?*

How about a Z train motor?
I found picures but no dimensions...


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## zig (Mar 11, 2004)

noddaz said:


> How about a Z train motor?
> I found picures but no dimensions...



I WANT ONE !!!!
ZIG


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## gear buster (Dec 1, 2005)

*lifelike T*

Here it is.The T chassis motor in a JL tjet chassis.
Will try to take a little clearer pics later. 

New pics posted.Enjoy :wave:


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## TX Street Racer (May 8, 2004)

gear buster said:


> Here it is.The T chassis motor in a JL tjet chassis.
> Will try to take a little clearer pics later.



WOAH!!! Now that'd be a smokin' fast Tjet for sure.....hmmm...might just have to try that soon :thumbsup:


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

Dig it! Looks really clean. Have you done one for a road course car?
BH


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## T-Jet Racer (Nov 16, 2006)

excellent job stuffin that t motor in a t-jet. I want to try both the zip and the t. The zip motor would let you drop the body down. Does anyone know what size resistor to use with it?


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## T-Jet Racer (Nov 16, 2006)

This looks interesting...Model Motor with Worm Drive 
http://www.technobots.co.uk/en-gb/dept_247.html


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## videojimmy (Jan 12, 2006)

the zip motors are so small, you could probably build an all wheel drive chassis... I just need to know, what kind of resistor would I need to knock the votage down?


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## zanza (Sep 23, 2005)

For your calculation of a voltage divider, try this http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/voldiv.html

For example, a resistor of 4.7kOhm and one of 1kOhm will give a result of 4V of output with an input of 16V


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## neorules (Oct 20, 2006)

Anyone know the dimensions on the zip-zap armature? Or have a photo of the arm only? Especially the car one.


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## afxgns (Jul 6, 2006)

http://www.nigellawton009.com/MiniMotors.html
This may be the smallest can motor assembley that "could" work for an HO car. It's 12 volt rated,so it will be the most likely to withstand 18v that most folks use.
It nets out to .390 dia. Not stated what the com/brush matl. is.
I think they could be pretty cheap.
If you all go to some of the surplus electrical sites, they have alot of interesting stuff.

Smalltime


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## afxgns (Jul 6, 2006)

http://www.nigellawton009.com/6VMicroMotors.html

Here's another one
MUCH smaller, sold with voltage adaptor.

smalltime


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## neorules (Oct 20, 2006)

Thanks for the replies guys-- is the diameter for the armature or the whole assembly? I'm looking for the armature diameter and shaft length if that is known.


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## zig (Mar 11, 2004)

zanza said:


> For your calculation of a voltage divider, try this http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/voldiv.html
> 
> For example, a resistor of 4.7kOhm and one of 1kOhm will give a result of 4V of output with an input of 16V


Back in the olden days of radio control car racing, Before electronic speed controls and BEC "battery eliminator circuit" there were voltage dropping diodes that could be soldered between the speed control resistor and radio reciever to reduce the power source down to around 6 volts to power the radio reciever.

I'm thinking that this type of diode may be what were looking for here, the diodes were real small. I'm not an electronics wizard by any means but I think a diode works kinda like a dam and only allows a certain amount of voltage thru it, without heat buildup like a resistor would have.

ZIG

Edited 4-1-07 diodes reduced voltage down to 6 volts equal to 4 AA batteries @ 1.5 volts each.


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## Slott V (Feb 3, 2005)

Zig-
You could be thinking of Zener Diodes. This subject is pretty complicated, but in simple terms; general diodes limit the direction of current flow to one direction. If the current is reversed it will not flow through the diode. Zener diodes are designed to allow the current to reverse once the current reaches a set limit. It will also reduce the reverse voltage going through it to some extent, though the diode can be burned up if this is not controlled to the spec of the diode rating.

An example of these diodes can be seen in the old Ultra 5 AFX slotless cars.










A burst of power from the Ultra 5 controller would allow the front wheels to turn and cause the car to lane change. The problem with this set up was everyone leaned on the turning button because it added more power to the arm too, forcing the diodes to get really hot. Makes sense since the only way you could pass was by going faster.  In some cases the soldered connections on the chassis's melted. I had one of those cars. The design was meant for brief bursts of "overload", not constant reverse current. 










Have I lost everyone now? :freak:


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## Slott V (Feb 3, 2005)

I guess to follow up on the diode idea:

A diode wouldn't be practical in a proportional (varying) voltage application like a slot car. You would still need a resistor to do that job.

Another good use for a zener diode would be adding LED lights to cars. You want a constant light to emit from the LED. (which is a diode itself) You could use a zenor diode to keep the voltage _constant_, providing you have a resistor to _reduce_ the power to the LED. Sort of a poor man's voltage regulator.


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## zig (Mar 11, 2004)

*Diodes*

These are the diodes I was thinking about...









They do look like the same zener diodes in the ultra 5's Hmmmm?
ZIG


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## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)

Any builders out there interested in revisiting this idea . . . ?


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## partspig (Mar 12, 2003)

I have been visiting it when time permits. One inherent problem with a motor that has a round profile is that it makes another problem when you need to mount it in a slot car chassis. I have had much better luck modifying "C" can type motors for slot cars. They are a hundred times easier to mount, and the end bells can be fixed to the can with screws, so the motors would be rebuildable. Not so with most of the cheaper round type motors you see out there now, i.e., pager motors, zip zaps. The zip zap monster truck motor holds the most promise, as the can is the best shape for slot cars, but has anyone found a viable supply of them?? If so they can be modified to use in slot cars. With a new end bell and armature wound expressly for HO slot car applications. Even the magnets would be upgradeable! JMOFHO !! pig


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## slotcar58 (Jun 21, 2007)

The smallest motors, I know of, would be the Z scale locomotive motors by Kadee and Marklin. You would have to replace the magnets and rewind the motor at a minimum. You may also have to install stronger brush springs and better brushes because of heat. The Z motors are probably a 40 Ga or higher and max. 8 to 12 volts in stock form.


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

Doba - We've been kicking it around in chat and the best seem to be the Tyco motorcycle motors.
They require the least modification. I think there could be other stuff out there.

Anyone have any pics of these train motors? Did I read that right? 
All you have to do is change out he brushes and magnets, modify the case and rewind the arm?
That's all???


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## partspig (Mar 12, 2003)

The Tyco motorcycle motor is small and compact, but the design just doesn't lend itself to stuffing it into a slot car chassis without major modifications. The train motors are just too expensive! The best bet is to find a manufacturer that makes a "C" can type motor that is relatively half the size of a the Tyco Pro Mabuchi motor. Getting a can close to those dimensions, makes the rest of the parts build relatively easy. The armature, chassis, gears and the end bell, but finding someone that is willing to do this is nearly impossible. Everyone that I talk to says they can't do that! It is the biggest line of BS that I have ever heard from companies that are screaming for business in this economy. I know that the slot car community would more than accept them with open arms. Matter of fact between me and Bill Hall, we will cover the first hundred easily! It is just a damn crying shame that companies will not work with you to help accomplish something that seems a no brainer to us. JMHOFO!! pig


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## slotto (Feb 9, 2010)

*Pager Motor Solution*

I did a pager motor install in a T-Jet Chassis.
http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showpost.php?p=3732477&postcount=304
I used a tyco gear in conjunction with the T-Jet crown gear. They mesh nicely and the resistor is 100 OHMs.


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## slotcarman12078 (Oct 3, 2008)

Motors, motors motors!!! Everyone's always looking for them!!! I was quite shocked to see this guy mentioned on the first page of this thread... http://www.nigellawton009.com/MiniMotors.html

I managed to get one of those small ( tiny even ) 12 volt motors from him. There is one other catch ( besides serviceable brushes) to think about. The smaller the motor, usually the arm shaft diameter is smaller too. The catch with the motor I got is it has a 1.0 mm shaft. You have to solder a sleeve on the shaft to get it to 1.5 mm. Even then, finding a pinion gear that fits is difficult. It winds up pretty fast... I never got around to mounting it in anything... One of these days..


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## TGM2054 (May 14, 2011)

If your looking for pinion gears to fit a 1.5mm shaft try Ranch Design. They have them. They mostly make stuff for 1/43 slot cars but some of it can be adapted to HO. Their good people to deal with too.


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## slotcarman12078 (Oct 3, 2008)

Cool, making a note of that!! There may be hope for that lil motor yet!!


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## Joe65SkylarkGS (Feb 15, 2010)

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2911245


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## partspig (Mar 12, 2003)

That Radio Shack motor is way too big!!


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## slotcarman12078 (Oct 3, 2008)

Nah pp.. That "shack motor is not so bad really...


Tech Specs

Dimensions
Product Length 0.77 inches 
Product Height 0.43 inches 
Product Width 0.58 inches

Smaller than a Mabuchi... And a reasonable 3.99...


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

I bought a train motor at my local hobby shop years ago. It's like a Tomy Turbo motor,
but with a green wire arm. That thing is a torque monster. So, I put some tall silis on it.
It pulls the front wheels off the ground, even with a traction magnet, but, if you work the 
launch just right, it's a rocket. Kinda fun to run, like a real drag car, kinda, in a small sorta way,
without the gas bill, beautiful roar, and sweet exhaust. I guess.


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## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)

http://www.ranch-design.com/axles.htm

Is the $2 box motor a Tyco HP7 model do you think?


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## TGM2054 (May 14, 2011)

I can't say for sure 'doba, but I think it's about the same size. Slot car Express has some also. Drop either one of them a note, their both great to deal with.


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## partspig (Mar 12, 2003)

Doba, you need a couple of motors for your HP-7's?? I have a couple that I can spare. Drop me a PM. pig


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## Dslot (Sep 2, 2007)

I have these two sites bookmarked as potential motor sources:

Micro-loco-motion

Electronic Goldmine

Amidst the big bucks coreless and instrument motors are more reasonably priced can motors. For instance, Microlocomotion's eBay Store currently has:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Flat-can-motor-...741366?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item2311a2dcb6

Remember, these guys buy production-overrun components from big market items like disk-drives and such. If you try one and like it, you may want to buy a bunch, because that particular item may will be unavailable in six months or a year.

-- D


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## Boosted-Z71 (Nov 26, 2007)

You guys keep adding info to this thread and your going to make me start building one of these scratch built chassis. 

Great Thread

Boosted


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## Joe65SkylarkGS (Feb 15, 2010)

Boosted-Z71 said:


> You guys keep adding info to this thread and your going to make me start building one of these scratch built chassis.
> 
> Great Thread
> 
> Boosted



I know!!!! Don't you hate these guys?!?!:freak: lmao!!:roll:


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## K.L. VanAtta (Mar 23, 2009)

Fellow Racers,

Some of my notes on the small motors that are currently available for use in HO slot cars.

Sadly, the supply of original Mabuchi HT-50 motors used in the Tyco Pro and all the derivations by other manufactures using carbon brushes, springs, and brush tubes, seems to be confined to auction sites. The newer motors of this type uses a rectangular carbon brush attached to a spring arm which rides in a position on the commutator that is rotated 90 degrees from the original design. These too are hard to find.

The last “improvement” to this type of motor was doing away with carbon brushes altogether and using metal fingers to ride on the commutator. Granted, for low voltage and lower current applications this works well, but, as a slot car motor this configuration presents severe limitations. These motors are still plentiful, several electronic supply shops on the internet stock them, Mabuchi still lists a part number for one, and many Chinese manufacturers offer an open, rectangular frame, mini motor in wholesale lots at reasonable prices.

Some of the standard features and measurements are:

*Two piece can and endbell
Can made of magnetic material or aluminum
Plastic endbell
Ceramic magnets, gauss about 500
0.715” wide x 0.750” long x 0.380” tall
Armature can Ohm from 7.0 to 17.0 plus
Some have bushings in both the can and endbell*

The second type are the small closed can type motors that are similar to a 1/24th scale motor in shape. I believe that these are the “servo” motors that Mr. Dennis is referring to in his post about his very cool project. Mabuchi lists the basic part numbers as FF-N20 and FF-N10. There are several versions of each motor available, and similar motors are had through Chinese manufacturers. 

These motors use a rare earth magnets and have an “in can” field strength of 600 gauss plus with minimal magnetic leakage. The biggest drawbacks are the small armature shaft diameter 0.5mm and the endbell brush system. The endbell employs the metal finger system to get electricity to the armature so anything above a few volts and a few hundredths of amps will burn the fingers out very quickly. 

Solving the endbell problem isn’t that difficult, finding the time to machine the new endbell and brush system is.


Be good

Keith


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