# Oval Death



## NCFRC (Aug 4, 2005)

If racers really want to save oval carpet racing from fading away then study the history of slot car racing . The bottom is exactly that ! The bottom line
got absolutely insane to participate ! 
When it takes thousands to compete then you won't have many new entry's.

Many a racer would comment , I havn't spent that much , well add it up and I bet you'll be surprised.


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## suckfish (Feb 25, 2008)

maybe if some of the manufactures would stop trying to create the latest and most expensive products for the extreme racers.. Some of us race just for FUN it would breathe life back into carpet oval.. 25c lipo, no wait 30c no wait 40c no 60c and lets not even start on why 1s lipos were made.. Rule changes every time you turn around..


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## Tommygun43 (Nov 17, 2002)

lol. It's not the manufacturers fault. It's sort of their JOB to make new stuff and get you to want to buy it. The problem is racers can't leave well enough alone. The racers are the ones "changing the rules every time you turn around", not the manufacturers.


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## c barsalow (Aug 15, 2002)

Tommygun43 said:


> lol. It's not the manufacturers fault. It's sort of their JOB to make new stuff and get you to want to buy it. The problem is racers can't leave well enough alone. The racers are the ones "changing the rules every time you turn around", not the manufacturers.


 
Bingo!

How's the flying going?


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## 440s-4ever (Feb 23, 2010)

The problem isn't just money. There's always entry level racing to be had. It's a multi-pronged dilemna

First you have technology. In order to do RC, you have to know red is plus, black is minus and be able to operate a screwdriver. Most parents lack those skills and think you've got to understand computer programming or be an auto mechanic to fix an RC car. To get the kid into it also requires the parent to learn something. Major setback.

Then you have the chemicals. Tire compound? Indoors? Really? I'm fairly versed in chemical exposure thru work and automotive hobbies but that junk is nasty, can't personally stand it and can't blame a parent for picking a sport like baseball where chemicals don't come into play til the scholarship years. 

Then there's behavior. It's just like full scale racing. There's a bunch of really good people and a few vocal idiots that are just looking for a reason to throw a tantrum. Unfortunately, unlike full scale racing it all goes down in a small scale area so no matter where the idiot is, everyone has to deal with his poor sportsmanship and immaturity. Full size pits that guy is usually at least 3 pits away and easier to isolate from your own good times. 

just a few thoughts off the top, will be an interesting thread


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## Diff Dude (Oct 2, 2004)

Tommygun43 & 440s-4ever,
You guys are hitting the nail pretty darn good. :thumbsup:
Dave


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## edward 2 (Oct 6, 2010)

look out now we have the carpit car wars. lol

but sadly thats what it is turning in to. 
maybe they should only have 2 class's , 
class A any pan car thats under 200.00[cars like the old bolink sport 2000]
batterys, 3300mah or less. motors, any brush under 50.00 or any BL under 30,000rpm.
class B for cars over 200.00


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## cobra22431 (Aug 27, 2006)

I have run what they call a break out class. I think every track should have one and make the rules only weight and body. Set the breakout time to what a 4 cell stock decent pan car can run. Now you can run any car and do well. if you breakout of the set time u loose that lap. At Trax 70 large concrete oval I have seen many different type cars and power systems run and do well in this class. I have a KSG Gen 1 with a 3200 lipo and 21.5 motor, basic non programable type speedo. I won the class twice and had allot of fun. This gives a place for that older pan car to compete and do well. Then you can have a few other classes for whats been running lately.


edward 2 said:


> look out now we have the carpit car wars. lol
> 
> but sadly thats what it is turning in to.
> maybe they should only have 2 class's ,
> ...


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## Jamie Hanson (Dec 3, 2002)

Oval around my area in non-existent. There are so many options out there now. 4 hours north and a local track has a good following of local racers. 5 hours south and you are in NC. They have a decent following also. 
- I loved when brushless motors were released. I went to a race where there were 92 entries all running the same motor and speedo. Then more motors came out, and more speedos.
- Lipos came out. Fantastic. I loved that also. Then it was 20c, 30c, 40c and so on. 
- Now speedos are programmable. I think that may have been a tipping point for a lot of racers. It just means an open can of variables. It honestly takes a lot of time to learn, play, and test all those parameters. 
- Keep brushless and lipo, but lock some things down. Spec speedo profiles is a good step. 
- I personally have started racing more Offroad. No matter how much power you have, it can't all be layed down. Our oval cars are so stuck to the racing surface, the more power we have, the faster the car is. That is just another problem. All this technology oval cars can use. Other forms of racing it doesn't help which is why I think people run those classes.

That is enough of my rant for the day.

I miss the old days of stock or mod.......................


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## Diff Dude (Oct 2, 2004)

Breakout class is the best solution for a beginner class. Set the lap times at a time that allows almost any chassis & electrics new or old be competetive. Breakout class @ Trax 70 is a blast to watch. They run any chassis, electrics, or body. There have been some strange bodies there, right coffeeman? 
Dave


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## NCFRC (Aug 4, 2005)

Jamie Hanson said:


> Oval around my area in non-existent. There are so many options out there now. 4 hours north and a local track has a good following of local racers. 5 hours south and you are in NC. They have a decent following also.
> - I loved when brushless motors were released. I went to a race where there were 92 entries all running the same motor and speedo. Then more motors came out, and more speedos.
> - Lipos came out. Fantastic. I loved that also. Then it was 20c, 30c, 40c and so on.
> - Now speedos are programmable. I think that may have been a tipping point for a lot of racers. It just means an open can of variables. It honestly takes a lot of time to learn, play, and test all those parameters.
> ...


When we started racing 20+ years ago , we ran in an armory on a painted cement floor. All we did each week was mop the floor to get the dust off and we had a blast. Horse power didn't mean a thing , an old RC10 or Tamiya something ran great. The only thing we allowed the racers to do was to roll their tires in a silicone gasket maker and of course let it dry for a day or two . Those were the Fun , inexpensive days 
Then somebody came up with the idea ,, Why don't we buy some carpet and we all know the story from there.


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## tweakedt3 (Aug 12, 2004)

NCFRC, I startded watchin at that track about 20 years ago, and it was carpet then, you dont mean pushing 25+ do ya?


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## sharkman1 (Sep 3, 2006)

carpet oval racing and beginners do not mix. End of story. Too much $$$, too much technology and too high a learning curve.
In order too have a spec or beginner class, you have to have those drivers who are at that level or are new to the hobby. Sorry to say but they are just not out there. 
Anyone who is already into this hobby have already moved onward and upward from any form that is truly beginner friendly in the oval community.
Even true spec racing requires serious set up knowledge, rc common sense, and expensive cars and equipment.
Show me where there is a spec class that uses a simple chassis, cheap brushed motor/esc, spec tires, 4 cell spec nimh. There is none around the northeast that I know of. Why? current racers do not want to go that slow or have limited adjustability, not to mention have "budget equipment". So who does that leave to fill out that class. Not beginners because they are not getting into oval racing at a level to have continued support of a class like that.
Bottom line is oval is not friendly to beginners because of the knowlege and equipment needed to get into it.

Slash racing is taking off because you can take it out of the box and already have the spec items already there and at a parent friendly price. Nothing needed to have fun. 
We have had 10+ kids join our weekly indoor racing since christmas. Now some of the parents are getting involved as well.
Not trying to make this comparison of oval vs sct, but the reasons sct racing is so popular are the reasons that oval racing is dying.


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## edward 2 (Oct 6, 2010)

i wonder how they would handle with out any compound on the tires.


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## OvalmanPA (Mar 21, 2000)

sharkman1 said:


> carpet oval racing and beginners do not mix. End of story. Too much $$$, too much technology and too high a learning curve.
> In order too have a spec or beginner class, you have to have those drivers who are at that level or are new to the hobby. Sorry to say but they are just not out there.
> Anyone who is already into this hobby have already moved onward and upward from any form that is truly beginner friendly in the oval community.
> Even true spec racing requires serious set up knowledge, rc common sense, and expensive cars and equipment.
> ...


I run in a series called the Hooter Chassis Outlaw Tour here in PA, NY, and OH. We have a class that is just that. It's called spec truck. Everyone runs a SMC 4000 1 cell LiPo (why you want to step back into the dark ages with NiMh packs is BEYOND me??), Novak GTB, a Novak 21.5 SS motor, and your choice of chassis. It has turned into pretty much THE biggest class on the tour. It's tremendously surprising just how much fun you can have going that slow.


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## NCFRC (Aug 4, 2005)

Originally Posted by sharkman1 View Post
carpet oval racing and beginners do not mix. End of story. Too much $$$, too much technology and too high a learning curve.


Your absolutely correct Sharkman and thats why there's no real growth
in this type of racing.

I think the 21.5 division is great but you have to get racers with the mentality that you don't have to go super fast to have fun.


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## Tommygun43 (Nov 17, 2002)

Well said sharkman1



c barsalow said:


> Bingo!
> 
> How's the flying going?


Good chuck. Pretty much..."Fly, crash, repair, repeat" lol


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## Al Schwarze (Nov 27, 2007)

just my opinion..
Pan car is like the sprint cup in NASCAR. it is the fastest class of RC racing.. THEY ARE SUPPOSE TO BE FAST. and yet some one is always trying to slow them down.. Stop trying to slow them down. pan car should be for the guy that wants to go stupid fast and isn't afraid to spend a little money to do it..

2 cell open mod pan car is what it should be..
Run any motor any speedo any battery you want..
no more motor wars, on more speedo wars, no more battery wars..
you will have way more power then you can ever use anyway..
if its to fast then just don't pull the trigger back so far.. 
And you may just have to learn how to let off coming in to the corner too... LOL
and that my Friends is called learning to drive.. 
If thats to fast for you, then race a truck..
The truck class is a great beginner class, and allot of fun to boot.. 

Again.. Just my opinion... LOL


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## reggie's dad (Sep 14, 2006)

*Nubee oval*

At our carpet oval track the nube progression has been short coarse trucks, legends, "with a 4 sec break out", rj speed cot cars, and so far 17.5 spec trucks. This isn't rules just the way things go, and we had 16 legends last week. Another thing to remember about parents, at least in our area is they are pushing sports like lacrosse / soccer /and basket ball in the hopes of college scholerships and have little time for fun sports. Just my $.02 :dude:


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## 440s-4ever (Feb 23, 2010)

One of the ways the money issue is addressed in full scale racing is engine claims. Top ten finishers get the opportunity to buy the winner's engine for something like $500. It generally keeps engine investment in the 2K to 3K range. 

Would it work for scale racers? $100 for a car swap, track official oversees both competitors unplug their receivers and a decent finisher "buys" the winning car for a hundy plus their lower finishing car. Maybe do it based on series points. 

??


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## tweakedt3 (Aug 12, 2004)

I just had a similar conversation with a freind about full size dirt racing. Claim rules and such are there as a deterent on spending too much money. We also got on the subject of crate motors. What the talk boiled down to was, you could give two guys the same equipment, bolt for bolt and spring for spring, and one will always be better. Some people just have a god given ability to go fast in whatever thay run.


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## BillSmithBooks (Jan 18, 2009)

Carpet oval is (or should be) much more than pan car.

I don't think pan car can have an entry-level, the cars are too sophisticated and that ship sailed a long, long time ago. 

But "carpet oval" can thrive regardless of the health of pan cars. 

Look at carpet oval racing in the UK -- over 200 club tracks, most tracks drawing 50+ racers a week, in some places you can race seven nights a week with less than an hour's drive, and over 90% of the cars in competition are Mardave-style suspensionless direct-drive cars ($100 kit) with brushed motors, (They have 4-5 major divisions -- Saloon car, Banger, MiniStox and Stock Car that are all virtually identical under the body shell -- the only difference is body style and the amount of contact allowed. But all of the cars cost <$200 in full race trim.)

The logical progression at most tracks seems to be an entry level division or two (Slash, Legend, Slider, BRP, Breakout/Bracket), then move up to NASTruck/COT 17.5 as the "sportsman" level pancar class (much like an IMCA Mod, Late Model Sportsman or 305 Sprint with full-size cars...it's a full-blown racecar, just not all out motor and cost wise). And then you move up to the "open pan cars."

The problem (as I see it) is that there is too much focus on pan cars, just as a lot of full size stock car tracks live on the philosophy of "if we have enough big Late Model/Sprint car races we'll be fine." And it turns out that they aren't because they've forgotten about "support" classes to groom their next generation of racers.

RC track operators who learn how to draw in new competitors with less sophisticated and less expensive divisions (Slash, Legend, BRP, etc.) are going to be much, much better off in the long run than the tracks that depend upon the small pool of drivers who have the time and commitment to run pan car. (Just as only a tiny percentage of mini-stock and street stock drivers ever move up to 410 Sprints or Late Models...and that's what pan cars are, the Sprints and Late Models of RC racing, for the best guys out there). 

There's not only room for both beginner and Pan Car, but both types of racers are important for the sport to survive and grow...but the pan car guys need the other types of racers (and the $$$ they bring in) to keep the tracks open. And the upper level divisions give the newbies something to work up to for those who have the time and drive to succeed at that level...even though the percentage of racers who will do that is small.

I don't have a vested interest in pan cars. I drive RC18s and Slash -- BRP is probably the ideal division for me but nobody in my area has it -- and I will be perfectly happy to stay at that level because I don't want to make the commitment to be a serious racer, this is just a hobby for me, not a second job. 

But from the outside looking in, I think Al nailed it on the head when it comes to pan car. Run what ya brung and have to adjust your driving style rather than restricting the cars "to save money" and "slow them down" and then spend a ton of time arguing about rules and hundreds of dollars on specialty ESCs, etc. to get just a little bit faster than everybody else.

With the technology today, it seems like it would be simpler and cheaper to let people run any motor, any cell and for a lot less $$$ the cars would be faster than anybody could drive...so that races are won not in the pit area, or by programmable ESCs and constantly buying higher C batteries. Opening up the rules would actually mean that guys can't buy a win, they can only earn one on the track with skill and throttle control.

It's just like wingless sprints on a quarter mile dirt track...when you got more motor than the track can handle, the driver means a lot more than the car.


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## Echeconnee (Nov 14, 1998)

You said a mouthfull! We should have stopped with the GTB. When we started letting the timing profile speedo's like the LRP we screwed up and the folks that let the dynamic timing speedo's in really really really screwed up and they know who they are. We need to go back to 2 cell, no timing racing.


Jamie Hanson said:


> Oval around my area in non-existent. There are so many options out there now. 4 hours north and a local track has a good following of local racers. 5 hours south and you are in NC. They have a decent following also.
> - I loved when brushless motors were released. I went to a race where there were 92 entries all running the same motor and speedo. Then more motors came out, and more speedos.
> - Lipos came out. Fantastic. I loved that also. Then it was 20c, 30c, 40c and so on.
> - Now speedos are programmable. I think that may have been a tipping point for a lot of racers. It just means an open can of variables. It honestly takes a lot of time to learn, play, and test all those parameters.
> ...


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## dizzy (Jan 6, 2004)

bravo Bill!!!!!!!!!

I said that a ew months ago but it seems nobody listened them either.


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## Al Schwarze (Nov 27, 2007)

You guys are on top of it alright..
Iv seen alot of changes over the years, and I agree 100 percent, things where allot essayer 20 years ago, but back then a RC car was a fiberglass plate and four wheels, or an aluminum tub and four wheels.
now we have technology that would make NASCAR envious.. LOL

So as I see it, no matter what class you run, You ether have to specify in the rules every aspect of the car or truck class that you are racing, Right down to springs, tires,battery, motor, body, every single part has to be a specific one to really make it a fare equal class,
I see so many classes where the specify motor and battery or now days, motor body and speedo, but not chassis and tires, which are two of the most important things..

it is human nature to always be looking for that little edge to make your car a little quicker..
nobody wants to hear that they only need to make a little better corner and they Will be right on pace with the fast guys, they would rather spend money on a new motor then focus on ruining a better line.
so as I said before, Ether you make it a true speck class with every part specified so there is no Grey area, Or you just run what ever you want and learn to drive it..
And just go have fun... LOL


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## Al Schwarze (Nov 27, 2007)

P.S.
Just think how much essayer it would be on your local hobby shop if every body ran exactly the same thing, One little shelve of parts instead of a whole building full.. LOL

Imagine all the manufactures fighting over your vote on which specific parts you where going to use each year, and knowing that there is no point in coming out with anything new until that specific time when the vote came up again on which specif parts will be used for that year
Or maybe we could even run the same thing for two years....
Its a nice dream.. LOL

I do also agree with the break out idea to a point, Putting racers together based on there ability makes more sense the putting them together based on what they are driving..
again just my opinion... LOL


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## Al Schwarze (Nov 27, 2007)

P.S. .5 LOL
And what is it with the veterans and the pros ruining in the slower classes these days ??
the slower classes are suppose to be for the new racers, the ones that are trying to learn... but the hot shots run with them and beat every one by four laps or more.
the better drivers should be forced to run in a class of there own..
That is the one thing that always amazes me the most when I go to some of the local tracks... I want to run in a pro or mod class but there isn't one because all the hot shots are running in the slow class with the beginers... ???

There are other people out there like me that race just because we love it..
but racing is allot more exciting if you know you have at least some chance of wining once in awile...
if your just starting out and trying to learn and getting past every few laps and getting yelled at for not getting out of the way, eventually your just going to give up...
once you improve in skill you should have to bump up and race with the other people at you skill level.. Period

Again, Just my opinion...


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## wrenchhead (Oct 26, 2007)

another nailed quote the pros running with the begginers cause they dont want to buy tires or esc or the like beating up on the new guy this happened at the track i run guys that have been racing for years ran the slowest pan car class that i thought wa for entry level drivers so i built a truck for my son to run and at first it was ok but when he runs 80laps and the pro runs 85 and i was trying to teach him how to work on a pan car he got mad and didnt want to race anymore so that forced me to buy him a slash so he would at least have fun again no matter how many las he id with it cause you had to avoid all the wrecks 


Al Schwarze said:


> P.S. .5 LOL
> And what is it with the veterans and the pros ruining in the slower classes these days ??
> the slower classes are suppose to be for the new racers, the ones that are trying to learn... but the hot shots run with them and beat every one by four laps or more.
> the better drivers should be forced to run in a class of there own..
> ...


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## edward 2 (Oct 6, 2010)

to make new people interested in racing, heres my 2 cents.
[this how all types of cars and trucks should be raced]
in all class;s carpit and dirt]
there should be only 2 main class;s.
beginers , 
motors,esc,battery under 50.00 only.

if a car wins 5 1st. place A mains ,they move in to the spec. class
where every one uses the same motor,esc,and battery.
of 19t brush motor and 3300mah nimh. battery.
till they feel ready to move into the more skilled class;s.
of brushless and lipo batterys. and higher cost cars or trucks.




edward


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## Echeconnee (Nov 14, 1998)

We all ran either stock or mod back in the day and if you were not running up front you tried harder or at least you were happy to win whatever main you ended up running in. The problem is more with racers than any thing else. Instant gratification is a killer, lol


Al Schwarze said:


> P.S. .5 LOL
> And what is it with the veterans and the pros ruining in the slower classes these days ??
> the slower classes are suppose to be for the new racers, the ones that are trying to learn... but the hot shots run with them and beat every one by four laps or more.
> the better drivers should be forced to run in a class of there own..
> ...


I have always said "if you want to get better at what you do, do it against people who are better at it than you" Again, this is more of a racer attitude problem than anything else. If winning is the only way you can have fun @ racing, then racing is probably not the way you want to spend your spare time.


wrenchhead said:


> another nailed quote the pros running with the begginers cause they dont want to buy tires or esc or the like beating up on the new guy this happened at the track i run guys that have been racing for years ran the slowest pan car class that i thought wa for entry level drivers so i built a truck for my son to run and at first it was ok but when he runs 80laps and the pro runs 85 and i was trying to teach him how to work on a pan car he got mad and didnt want to race anymore so that forced me to buy him a slash so he would at least have fun again no matter how many las he id with it cause you had to avoid all the wrecks


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## megasaxon (Jul 2, 2004)

carpet oval racing shouldnt be limited to pan cars only, there are plenty of cars that can be run on carpet ovals that can bring new racers in. my local track has run anything that you can buy foam tires for. I started carpet racing with a stadium truck and then moved on to EDMs and pan cars, along with running minis and other stuff in between. In the novice class at my local track, most of them run short course trucks, since they are plenty fast and really durable


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## peebles24 (Oct 24, 2010)

I had been out of racing for 15 years till last summer. So when winter rolled around I decided to try carpet again hated it years ago. Our track has a VTA class (kind of) it is vintage bodies but 21.5 instead of the novak only 25.5. The class is a blast I won't say that any chassis can win but it probably wouldn't be far fetched. I even put together another car for my seven year old son to run this winter. Now I have two dinasoars a FT TC4 and a Xray T1 evo 2. It is more of a basher class because we don't mind a little rubbing but it sure is a lot of fun. It really is not super expensive, the old stuff you can buy cheap, I paid 60 for my chassis.

Just a thought, the touring cars under powered is a blast.

Chad


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