# Seaview Four to Eight Window Conversion



## WarpeD (May 28, 2007)

With apologies to the esteemed efforts of Mr. Rick Teskey, I'm trying to figure out the cleanest way to get my Mobius Seaview converted to the movie version without going to the expense of an add-on kit.

I posted this proposal over on SSM too, and I'm looking for feedback, ideas, and the like. I would think Rick's conversion easier, but I like a challenge too!!

Comparing the kit to the eight window screen captures I've found, it seems that the whole bulbous nose of the boat was moved forward by the 8 to 4 modification. (Orne Montgomery stated earlier in the SSM thread that a plug was inserted in the effects miniature in the bow area as part of the Flying Sub accommodation. Given Orne's experience, I don't doubt this.) Wherever the plug was inserted, the result was that the center of the bow's most extreme width was moved ahead of it's original intersection of the deck and the hull. 

So....where to cut this lovely styrene? 

Proposal: 

Although the FS mod has been stated to have made the bow wider, reshaping the bulbous portion of the hull to make it narrower isn't going to happen. It doesn't appear that the difference was dramatic anyway, so we have a compromise. Given the differences between all of the filming miniatures, in spirit this is an acceptable situation. IMHO.

After determining how far to move the bow back, I would cut a plug of hull out from just behind where the manta fins begin. The cut would go all the way up to the deck parting line, and the deck would be separated from the hull. One result of moving this hunk of Seaview sternward will be for the bulbous shape to impinge on the deck, forcing a reshape, taking a bit out of the sloping sides of the deck. This reshape appears to be consistent with a comparison profile pictures of the eight window boat with the four. It's rough, I see it, but concede I may be seeing it because I want to. The gainer in this, of course, is that the bow length is retro-revised to the original profile to a degree that I think will end up being completely acceptable. 

The sonar blisters would need to be reinforced on the inside with heavy sheet styrene before getting carved off, bondoed and the hull reshaped. No biggie. 

The frameless bow insert is used, and the eight window framework is constructed by cutting and adding as appropriate using sheet styrene and chunks of the framed insert as needed. This is better than filling and reshaping with the clear inserts since we need to maintain the thinness of the hull in order to add an interior. Clear windows are cut from a two or three liter bottle of the soft drink of your choice. The upper part of these plastic bottles appears to have an almost perfect curvature. Since the windows are inset just a tad, any variation is okay by me, especially in light of the fact that both four window boats' windows were flat panes, and the kit has contoured. 

The area between the manta fins is built up with styrene, bondo...Aves...whatever. Here, the kit piece is discarded and the desired thinness of the new fins acquired by being able to stay closer to the upper contour. 

It just remains to determine the order of doing all of this so that a replacement interior can be crafted. Fortunately, the kit provides a lot of parts that can be used for this, taking cues from the movie as to what goes where. 

I'm going to test as much of this whole thing as possible in Photoshop first, and that study will determine whether or not I go forward. I'd be taking pix of the kit right now, were it not for the fact that I had it delivered to work....and I rode the crotchrocket to work today. 

If an eight window Seaview is possible without waiting, and especially without mixing resin and styrene, I would prefer to do that.


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## scotpens (Sep 6, 2003)

WarpeD said:


> With apologies to the esteemed efforts of Mr. Rick Teskey, I'm trying to figure out the cleanest way to get my Mobius Seaview converted to the movie version without going to the expense of an add-on kit.
> 
> I posted this proposal over on SSM too, and I'm looking for feedback, ideas, and the like. I would think Rick's conversion easier, but I like a challenge too!!


Calling it a "challenge" is a gross understatement. You're basically talking about re-inventing the wheel. Essentially you'd be completely rebuilding the front 10 or 11 inches of the _Seaview_. That's got to involve dozens of hours of work, not to mention a gallon or so of Bondo!

Frankly, I'd wait for Mr. Teskey's aftermarket conversion kit (which, I believe, will be the entire front half of the hull, minus the interior). However, I have thought of doing a non-canon "hybrid" sub by simply altering the window configuration to something approximating the movie version, while keeping the FS bay, twin sonar domes and lengthened bow just as they are. To me, the old tub just never looked quite right after the plastic surgery.


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## WarpeD (May 28, 2007)

I'm well aware of what Rick is intending to offer. No, this is nowhere's near "reinventing the wheel." I apologize for the length of my post, but this is not a complete recontour event, and I believe I've thought this through. Give it another read, I do appreciate the input...but not diversion to an alternative I've already stated doesn't work for me. If Rick offers the entire front half of the sub in eight window form, it's going to be a resin part subject to challenges of its own, not to mention what will no doubt be a fairly stout asking price, one which will likely equal or exceed the cost of the original kit. I'm proposing a suitable alternative for model builders that want to go it on their own.

A gallon of bondo would exceed the volume of the affected hull portion by at least a factor of two.


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## scotpens (Sep 6, 2003)

WarpeD said:


> A gallon of bondo would exceed the volume of the affected hull portion by at least a factor of two.


*hyperbole* (hī-pûr'bə-lē) *n.* A figure of speech in which exaggeration is used for emphasis or effect, as in _I could sleep for a year_ or _This book weighs a ton._:tongue:

Well, I certainly applaud your determination. If you can do it, go for it! 

Would the conversion include relocating the control room to its logical position under the sail? Compared to the major surgery you're proposing, slicing out a removeable section of the deck superstructure to display the interior should be a cakewalk.


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## WarpeD (May 28, 2007)

Hehe, I recognized the hyperbole, Scott.  

Once I've had a chance to compare the profile of the kit to the profile of the Seaview bow in the minefield scene in the film, I'll know if I'm "go" or not. That will determine the size of the plug I remove. Thanks for the encouragement - and perhaps even the unspoken challenge! 

As for the control room, while the task you describe is indeed easier than the bow mod, I'm just not into "interiors," and the display port would spoil the grey lady's lines. I'll do the observation nose interior 'cause it just has to be lit - no way around it.

I agree with you on the original act of conversion, by the way. I was aghast when I saw the first ep of the second season (on the original air date) and what they had done to the Seaview. Just wasn't the same sub. I guess 4th grade isn't too young to become a purist, eh?


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

Well to do the conversion on the cheap, the only practical way is to use as much of the stock kit as possible and live with any differences.

To do it this way, I would use the kit lower hull, but replace the corrugated Flying Sub doors with thickish sheet styrene. The lower hull keel contour can be built up easily with epoxy putty. I prefer this to Bondo, etc. as it sticks to plastic, and can be shaped and smoothed with water before the stuff cures. You can do 95% of the work without touching sand paper or files...

Cutting off the sonar blisters inst a big deal. I would back the holes with thin sheet styrene, then cut a blister shaped plug from thicker plastic to fill the hole in the hull itself as much as possible. Then top off with some more epoxy putty. I prefer to use more plastic for filler than putty, as there is less chance of it shrinking/cracking/ becoming dimpled from sanding, popping loose. Making the new sonar housing on the top spine is simple. More sheet plastic cut, shaped and sanded.

You will have to cosmetically reshape the bow a lot. The 8 window version is blunter without the central ridge. The search light housing in the front is less snout-like and more flush with the nose. You might be able to cut the housing free from the nose, remove some plastic behind it, cement it back into position, and then blend with putty. 

The windows will be the biggest problem. I can think of a couple fixes... this being maybe the best/easiest

I would probably take the kit's flush window nose cap, and glue the glass window parts in place. Then putty and sand it all smooth. Use this to vacuform or press form a new clear nose cap from thick styrene. Your new clear part should be big enough for all 8 windows. Just glue it in place, putty and sand the joints smooth, polish it clear again, and mask off the 8 windows before painting.


The actual show miniature was updated not by reworking the existing bow but by chopping it off and addng a whole new nose.


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## WarpeD (May 28, 2007)

While I don't necessarily agree with your version of the process, the simple truth is there: converting this kit without large expense and significant time investment will only happen if the bulk of the nose remains original plastic. There will be compromises to live with. Then again, when I think that all of the effects miniatures, not to mention every kit that's been released, have been different one from another, I don't think it unlikely that this conversion will succeed. 

The minefield sequence in VTTBOTS gives the best profile shot of the entire bow of the original sub. If I can reasonably match that, I will consider the job done, and well worth the effort.


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

How big is/was the Lunnar Vac kit? I have one somewhere... its the 8 window version. I wonder if you could use part of the nose?


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## WarpeD (May 28, 2007)

I've got one also. Too short by about a foot.

The bow on the Moebius kit is interesting. There appears to be a very gentle apex to the centerline of the bow, looking down from the top. Easing this ridge after backing up the inside with styrene will definitely help blunt the nose, as will removal and filling of the searchlight snout. There's trimming to be done on the manta fins as well. All of this must sound horribly scary, but what I see are still nips and tucks....no great sea of bondo slathered over the nose to be recontoured. The very top of the bow where the point of the deck intersects the hull should be a bit interesting. Might have to bring the point downward just a tad...about 1/16," or very, very slightly recontour the hull upward here, just to make it work.


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## WarpeD (May 28, 2007)

These three caps are my key reference. I will probably run the DVD through the PC for more angles.

Fun item to notice: this is the eight footer. If anyone wants to get persnickety about my mod, allow me to point out that the limber holes on this version angle aft, while on the 17 footer they angle forward. So...no way could one, in theory, use the frames on the Moebius kit without yielding to compromise. Not trying to get funny here or crit Moebius, just exposing a bit more of the rationalization for the results of my conversion attempt.


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## scotpens (Sep 6, 2003)

djnick66 said:


> How big is/was the Lunnar Vac kit? I have one somewhere... its the 8 window version. I wonder if you could use part of the nose?


Too much difference in scale between the two kits. The Moebius _Seaview_ is about 22 percent bigger than the Lunar vacuform. However, the Lunar kit is pretty accurate to the movie version in its lines and proportions. If you happen to have a Lunar kit lying around, especially an unbuilt one, it would be an easy matter to trace the nose profile and the plan view of the manta fins and enlarge them to have a guide for reshaping the nose of the Moebius kit.


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## jbond (Aug 29, 2002)

What everyone loves about the movie version is the sleeker, graceful contours--no one doubts that you can do some kind of version of this with tons of bondo and work, I think the skepticism comes in in reproducing anything close to the elegance of the movie nose without virtually starting from scratch. That's what the actual miniature makers did, after all--the TV nose was done by cutting off the movie nose and starting from scratch.


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## BigGuido (May 7, 2008)

*The smartest and least insanity inducing option...*

I think the best, smartest and least insanity inducing option for an eight window version of the Seaview would be for Frank & company to go back and simply retool a new front end and sail for the 4 window kit. They could release it as a complete kit with the Flying Sub thrown in for grins! I would much rather have a season 1 styrene version done-up in the same top-notch fashion as my currently "awaiting to be assembled as soon as all the 3rd party goodies hit the market" season 2-4 Seaview. I have 2 shelves that both versions would look boffo on!

From a marketing stand point, I think this makes perfect of sense for Moebius. They already have a hit on their hands with their current release. With a modicum of retooling, they can basically sell the same kit twice. I know that I will not think twice about purchasing one - as I believe is the case with the majority of rabid VTTBOTS fans that purchased the season 2-4 kit.

What say you?


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## WarpeD (May 28, 2007)

A modicum of retooling would equal a modicum of semi-skilled conversion effort. If I'm horribly wrong, and I don't think I am, I will end up with the movie nose that might have a little more rake to the profile and be a tad wide, and achieved with only a modest amount of filler. In contrast to the differences one sees between all the kits and between all of the effects miniatures of either version, it's not a big deal. The Seaview was apparently not blueprinted before the first keel was laid, which means every variation ever seen was done from a series of pictures. That is an estimation process at best, making each model a work of art unto itself.

Agreed that they lopped off the eight window bow to put in the FS crap, but that had to be done to add the FS bay, not grossly change the bow contours. To my eye, it's very difficult to see the difference width wise, although the profile is pretty obvious. Obvious differences will tell whether or not the job can be done with the styrene at hand.

I may be WarpeD, but I'm not insane, nor do I expect to be thus following this modification.


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## BigGuido (May 7, 2008)

The bow of the original version of the Seaview always had a really cool similarity to the flight decks of the Boeing B-29 Superfortress and the Boeing B-377 Stratocruiser. The original sub had an almost 40's retro feel to it so to speak. I always loved the eight window design and it wasn't until many years into my teens that I even noticed the difference in the bows. It was when the stock footage of the Seaview showed up in an episode of Wonder Woman that I noticed the four windows and the twin sonar radomes on the "temples" of the bow. I actually thought that they had made the mods to the model for the Wonder Woman episode (hey, I think I was only 14 or 15 at the time). With it being the mid to late 1970s, there was no web as yet to check this out. I finally learned about the history of the mods to the sub when I purchased the PL Seaview and started researching the best way to build it up.


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

WarpeD said:


> A modicum of retooling would equal a modicum of semi-skilled conversion effort.
> I may be WarpeD, but I'm not insane, nor do I expect to be thus following this modification.


I think your mods are quite within the average modellers skill... determination is the biggest thing... if you think you can do it... you can do it. 

Plus if you take the plunge and do it from scratch that means the plastic or resin conversion will just come along faster (thats a rule of nature!)...


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## gareee (Jan 1, 1970)

All accuracy aside, instead of the recessed windows front cap, if they had provided a 8 window cap instead, I would have been perfectly happy.


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## WarpeD (May 28, 2007)

They should have divided the hull into three parts, not two, and provided two completely different bows along with two completely different sails. Or perhaps split the hull ahead of the conning tower instead of aft. The cost would have bumped up another $20 at most, but I think that it would not have killed the market for the kit... not one bit.


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## gareee (Jan 1, 1970)

I think over $100 gets harder to justify cost wise. And I'd have preferred clear interior parts in the kit for lighting, instead of solid ones, rather then a whole new nose.

Maybe they'll do a rerelease, since the molds are already done? A cutaway seaview might be cool, or a glow of clear version.


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## WarpeD (May 28, 2007)

Maybe.... I'm sure if we polled 10 VTTBOTS fans, we'd probably get 10 variations on what they want in a kit! 

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I'm charging up the batteries for the digital pitchur taker so I can zap some pix of the hull to compare with the movie caps....and to charge ahead with a really spiffy extra large extra thin razor saw I bought at Wonderfest last year.:devil:

By the way.....one reason I'm so cocksure about this mod is that I'm very used to slicing and dicing 3D models in Rhino3D. This kit is just another bundle of NURBS to me, and I can visualize the whole process in my head rather well. Been doing the 3D thing for over 10 years, so the neurons are pretty well trained at this point. I have reason to be confident. I also have just enough money in the bank to buy another kit in case I make a complete a$$ of myself. Nothing ventured, nothing gained, tho.....and maybe this will help someone else too.


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## WarpeD (May 28, 2007)

Well, after some 200+ screen captures and the chance to really compare the two bows to a much larger data sample.....I must state UNCLE. My original plan will not work. 

Currently regrouping. And checking out the price of bondo..... :hat:


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## scotpens (Sep 6, 2003)

BigGuido said:


> The bow of the original version of the Seaview always had a really cool similarity to the flight decks of the Boeing B-29 Superfortress and the Boeing B-377 Stratocruiser. The original sub had an almost 40's retro feel to it so to speak.











There's some similarity, but the Stratocruiser's nose had WAY more windows.
An early _Seaview_ design had a 12-window nose, but the number was reduced to 8 so a practical interior set could be matched to the exterior. Of course, we never saw the inside of the upper windows anyway.


[IMG-LEFT]http://forbiddenplanet.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/Napoleon%20Solo%20Ilya%20Kuryakin.jpg[/IMG-LEFT]



WarpeD said:


> Well, after some 200+ screen captures and the chance to really compare the two bows to a much larger data sample.....
> I must state UNCLE.


Well, back to the old drawing board . . .


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## WarpeD (May 28, 2007)

scotpens said:


> Well, back to the old drawing board . . .


Indeed. The streamlining of the refit bow is too severe. What really bites is that I like that profile more - I just dig the eight windows. I'm so confused.

Nope. No drawing board. This model is really a replica of the 17 foot television shooting model, so thats how it will be built. Pretty much.... If my hack and slash would have given me something like a 95% solution on the eight window bow, I'd still go for it. But I'm more likely at 75% satisfaction, with a helluva lot of rationalization thrown in besides. Sometimes I can fool myself a bit, this is one of those times I humbly submit. I will build this one pretty much as is, although the windows will be corrected. Gotta put my stamp on it somewhere. Nice as it is, I don't want to just.....assemble. :devil:

Time for the Cone of Silence?? No, wait. Wrong TV show. _Sorry about that......_


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

I dont know what kind of tools or skills you have, but what about making a horizontal cut into the bow, below the kit window line, and taking it back close to the top fairing of the hull. Then make a vertical saw cut straight down, and remove that whole nose section. You will just be leaving the manta fins. Then shape a block of bass wood to fit the gap, and shape it to match the movie sub nose. First make it fit the model perfectly, then remove it from the model, and sand it down a bit overall, so its a touch smaller. THen use that as a master to vac form or press form a new plastic nose. Again, you can do it in say clear plastic, so all you have to do is mask out the windows when you paint the sub.


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## WarpeD (May 28, 2007)

The manta fins are pushed forward by the refit... the whole nose is about an inch and a half too long. This elongated the manta fins in the process. The only viable retrofit is to lop off the bow where the manta fins start and fabricate a completely new part. This is very similar to what Rick Teskey is doing, only he's making it a one for one part replacement with no cutting to existing kit parts. 

Ultimately, while I have no fear of playing chop shop and fairing the parts back together, carving a new bow is outside my skillset. I believe I could do it in Rhino3D and have the part printed in ABS, but the cost would be prohibitive. Aside from that, I don't have the time. The hack and slash that I described in my first post was no more than a weekend's worth of work. I have far too many other projects needing beaucoups time and effort. SO....I can live with the TV nose, and will have a nice model on display much, much sooner than otherwise. Thanks for the input!


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