# huh?



## nx-o1troubles (Jul 20, 2006)

who closed the thread about the pro built models? come on that was a funny thread


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

I would say one reason, is because of your remarks. You went too far.


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## GT350R_Modeler (Sep 6, 2005)

nx-o1troubles said:


> who closed the thread about the pro built models? come on that was a funny thread


Probably because you were "Bashing" his work and you referred to his paint choices as "gay." I don't really know why it was closed, but I didn't start the thread to rip on the guy or his work, just to point out that people should choose their words more carefully when describing stuff on Ebay. It's somewhat off topic, but it DID have to do with Trek kits. You probably should have thought of a different word to describe his work than "gay." What are you, 12?


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## scotpens (Sep 6, 2003)

Well, that thread DID seem to be getting a bit nasty and biyatchy -- not to mention repetitive.

It was fun while it lasted, though.


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## REL (Sep 30, 2005)

You guys are mean, I did the best I could on that model.


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

You guys who were outright bashing this guys work should be ashamed of yourselves. As I already mentioned in the other thread and as Tony pointed out, the person is obviously proud of their work. I can't comment on the work itself, but obviously it's not up to quite a few of ya'll's standard, which tells me it's likely average work in my estimate. However, that doesn't give us the right to blast it as some of the comments I saw were doing. Comment on his poor choice of wording for his work, but to do what some of you were doing...? 

Do you feel better about yourselves now? Some of you have mighty high opinions on your own work....

*Zenomorp*, I have no problems w/the reason you started the thread, tho now wish you hadn't, obviously. I'm not upset w/you at all. 

*nx-o1troubles,* do you even build models? For you to blast the guy as you did without providing us any sort of proof of your abilities is beyond the pale, IMNSHO. Put your work up here for us to see so we can critique it - and maybe you'll be lucky enough not to receive a dose of your own medicine.


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## Raist3001 (Oct 23, 2003)

zenomorp said:


> just to point out that people should choose their words more carefully when describing stuff on Ebay.


But to him, his builds are pro built. That's the beauty of innocence. Perhaps he has never visited this forum or any modeling forum. Why should we deflate his sails simply because we do not agree with his color choices or how accurate it is?

But expanding on your statement, perhaps a few folks here should have chosen their words more carefully when critiquing his builds? Some of the comments were really mean.


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## Xenon (Nov 2, 2007)

Raist3001 said:


> But expanding on your statement, perhaps a few folks here should have chosen their words more carefully when critiquing his builds? Some of the comments were really mean.


Aaaand I'm probably guilty of that with my own comments in that thread, and for that I have absolutely no problem apologising to you all. I know when my own work will start coming up in this forum after Christmas, there will be plenty ammunition for it to get roasted, so I do understand where you are coming from.


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## nx-o1troubles (Jul 20, 2006)

> *nx-o1troubles,* do you even build models? For you to blast the guy as you did without providing us any sort of proof of your abilities is beyond the pale, IMNSHO. Put your work up here for us to see so we can critique it - and maybe you'll be lucky enough not to receive a dose of your own medicine.


Actually, yes I do. I may not constantly have one to work on like many of you do, but that is because of money.

But, I am in fact working on one right now, its just there is a lot of masking involved and a lot of petty detail that is hard to take care of.
But I will get it done and show you.


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## nx-o1troubles (Jul 20, 2006)

zenomorp said:


> You probably should have thought of a different word to describe his work than "gay." What are you, 12?


No im not twelve. And a lot of people use the word gay that has nothing to do with the real "gay."


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

The main reason that this and other model related forums exist is to share our work and grow. We should always be able to take some criticism and I'm not saying that we can't offer some. When it's constructive in nature it's not at all a bad thing and as a builder we need to have thick skin if someone is offering us an honest critique of our work. Just because someone says our work could be better isnt' a reason to get upset and flame them for offering their opinion, especially in a positively critiquing fashion. 

However, works like "sucks", "idiotic", "gay", "dumb", "stupid" and others aren't at all constructive and are a lot harsher than are required. 

Again, put yourself in that person's shoes. There's no reason for people to get mean-spirited in their critique of someone's work. It sucks the fun out of the hobby - and a hobby, by definition, is something we're supposed to enjoy. I don't know about most of you folks here, but I don't get a lot of enjoyment out of someone insulting my work.

That's pretty much all I'm trying to say here, folks. Be honest, to be sure. But there's no call to be all nasty and ripping someone's work apart.


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## nx-o1troubles (Jul 20, 2006)

The thing is that this guy probably doesnt even know about this. At least we didnt PM him and tell it to his face.


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

Actually, if those of you who were outright bashing his work had any intestinal fortitude that's what you would have done. That's a primary problem w/the anonymity of the Internet - you don't have to face the person in the real world when you say what you're typing. A LOT of folks don't have the cajones to do that.


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## F91 (Mar 3, 2002)

Griff- I can't tell you how many times I WISH I could talk to some of these guys face to face!!!! A lot of the time, the internet takes away intent and inflection and the reader will interpret something entirely wrong. Happens all the time. That said, there's a couple guys around here I'd love to chat up in the flesh. Hell, We still need to have a beer together too!


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

Yeah, I know what you mean. I'm just as guilty of the whole mis-interpretation thing in the past and blowing up at someone over what amounted to a passing comment not intended to offend. I try to look at something someone has posted and re-read it, thinking that they likely meant no real offense - but even now don't always succeed. Unfortunately, it happens. 

Maybe the reader is having a particularly bad day and when they read whatever the post was it just pushed them over the edge. I can understand that and am not above accepting that as a reason for someone getting torqued off about something. Been there, done that and embarrasingly enough have a closet full of t-shirts. 

However, when someone goes out of their way to be a jerk...? There's just no excuse for it. Most of those folks who post stuff like that would never likely say that to someone's face. I might not be _quite_ such a jerk to someone's face, but you'll still get pretty much the same thing from me 9 out of 10 times. Not sure if it's how I was raised or how I've grown in my career, but there you go. 

Oh, well. We're none of us perfect beings and we live in an imperfect world. Still, honey works better than vitriol when trying to make for pleasant conversation.


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## Nova Designs (Oct 10, 2000)

Griffworks said:


> Actually, if those of you who were outright bashing his work had any intestinal fortitude that's what you would have done. That's a primary problem w/the anonymity of the Internet - you don't have to face the person in the real world when you say what you're typing. A LOT of folks don't have the cajones to do that.



Actually Griff, I _did_ send him an email, albeit a relatively polite one, containing a photo of his model next to the real thing. And I asked him if he really thought that his version was even close to accurate. I also suggested that he would likely not get any bids and should probably revisit his skill set before posting his work for sale at prices like that.

Strangely he hasn't responded.  

I have no shame. :wave: 

Not to defend anyone's poor behavior, but one doesn't need to be a master modeler to recognize garbage when we see it. That argument is gobbldygook. We all have eyes and brains and spend a lot of time here nitpicking each other's work. No one asks for anyone credentials when someone points out a flaw. 

But, when something this abysmally bad pops up, how can you defend it, really? Sure, its not really polite to call it "gay" or "stupid"... but _come on,_ you've gotta admit, its one thing to build a model that bad, its quite another to put it up for public display and _sale_ claiming its "professionally" built. That just opens you up for ridicule. Its a harsh world.


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## nx-o1troubles (Jul 20, 2006)

a mistake on a paint job is one thing...its when you build something that someone who has never even watched star trek could tell you that it is way off...


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

Nova Designs said:


> Actually Griff, I _did_ send him an email, albeit a relatively polite one, containing a photo of his model next to the real thing. And I asked him if he really thought that his version was even close to accurate. I also suggested that he would likely not get any bids and should probably revisit his skill set before posting his work for sale at prices like that.
> 
> Strangely he hasn't responded.
> 
> I have no shame. :wave:


At least you had the nads to do so. 


> Not to defend anyone's poor behavior, but one doesn't need to be a master modeler to recognize garbage when we see it. That argument is gobbldygook. We all have eyes and brains and spend a lot of time here nitpicking each other's work. No one asks for anyone credentials when someone points out a flaw.


When someone who posts here or elsewhere has never shown their work - be it a buildup or finished model - they've got no room to talk, IMNSHO. That's like someone at SciFi Meshes bagging on the work of someone who's showing their first work - yet has never once shown their own work. What's your basis for thinking you can blast someone elses work if you won't show your own? 

I'm not saying I'm a master modeler - far from it. However, I wouldn't dream of critiquing someone elses work w/o having shown my own. 


> But, when something this abysmally bad pops up, how can you defend it, really? Sure, its not really polite to call it "gay" or "stupid"... but _come on,_ you've gotta admit, its one thing to build a model that bad, its quite another to put it up for public display and _sale_ claiming its "professionally" built. That just opens you up for ridicule. Its a harsh world.


To a point I agree. Still, if you've never once shown us your work, you open _yourself_ up to the magnifying glass, IMNSHO. (not saying you, specifically, using the general term in this instance)


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## Xenon (Nov 2, 2007)

nx-o1troubles said:


> a mistake on a paint job is one thing...its when you build something that someone who has never even watched star trek could tell you that it is way off...


Well, it doesn't merit any of us resorting to personal attacks and denigrating vocabulary, that's for sure, particularly when the individual in question isn't here to defend himself.


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

That's another good point I hadn't thought of, *Xenon*.


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## nx-o1troubles (Jul 20, 2006)

did you at least look at the pictures?


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## REL (Sep 30, 2005)

I'm with you Nova Designs. I'm so sick of sugar coating my responses to something I think looks bad and having to walk on eggshells around these subjects, to the point I started my own board .

If it sucks, it sucks, telling someone it looks fantastic won't allow them to improve and will give them a false sense of achievement. One of the things I most appreciate is negative comments about my work, then I can fix it. 

If he presents his work as pro built, and it's not, I mean, not even close in that case. Then he's asking for it and deserves what he gets.


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## Xenon (Nov 2, 2007)

nx-o1troubles said:


> did you at least look at the pictures?


Of course I did. Many of them. I even offered my own less-than-charitable opinions on what I saw, for which I have subsequently apologised — and will again, if asked to, because I know I'm more mature, and ought to be bigger than that, internet anonymity or no internet anonymity.

Or supposed to be at any rate.

Fact is, I passed judgement, when I haven't myself stepped up to the plate, to have my own work examined under the bright lights of people I consider to be my modelling superiors.

Not yet, anyway ...


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## nx-o1troubles (Jul 20, 2006)

See I am normally a be nice about it person. And I will admit that my models are far from perfect. Now if he built that, fine. I'd keep the comments to myself or maybe make a suggestion, because that is just how he likes to build his models. But when you pull crap like that, and expect to sell it for $300? I dont feel like being nice no more.

Oh, and on the Voyager it says $300 or BEST OFFER. Im thinking about emailing him and saying "I offer you five bucks for it." haha


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

REL said:


> I'm with you Nova Designs. I'm so sick of sugar coating my responses to something I think looks bad and having to walk on eggshells around these subjects, to the point I started my own board .


I never said anyone should sugar coat anything they've got to say nor to walk on eggshells. All I'm sayin' is that folks should stop and think a bit before saying "what a piece of junk!" Tell why you think it's junk. 


> If it sucks, it sucks, telling someone it looks fantastic won't allow them to improve and will give them a false sense of achievement. One of the things I most appreciate is negative comments about my work, then I can fix it.


Yeah, but if all you get is "what a piece of excrement!" from people that doesn't help you to fix it, does it? An honest critique, as I said above, does. "Hey, man, the widget should look more this and I think that your thingmajib needs to be more slanted." 


> If he presents his work as pro built, and it's not, I mean, not even close in that case. Then he's asking for it and deserves what he gets.


To a point I agree with you. However, that's still no reason to get mean-spirited and say some of the nasty stuff that I've seen said about others work from time-to-time. That doesn't help the guy to understand that his work isn't nearly as great as he seems to think it is.


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

nx-o1troubles said:


> See I am normally a be nice about it person. And I will admit that my models are far from perfect. Now if he built that, fine. I'd keep the comments to myself or maybe make a suggestion, because that is just how he likes to build his models. But when you pull crap like that, and expect to sell it for $300? I dont feel like being nice no more.
> 
> Oh, and on the Voyager it says $300 or BEST OFFER. Im thinking about emailing him and saying "I offer you five bucks for it." haha


When you don't feel like being nice "no more", go do it somewhere else. I've no problems with constructive criticism, but bashing the works of others for no reason _other than to be a jerk_ about it has no place here. It's not what The Hobby is about and certainly won't be tolerated at this forum.


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## Raist3001 (Oct 23, 2003)

REL said:


> If it sucks, it sucks, telling someone it looks fantastic won't allow them to improve and will give them a false sense of achievement. One of the things I most appreciate is negative comments about my work, then I can fix it.


I can certainly agree with this, but don't you feel there is a positive way to critique a build although it may not be as well done as others? 

I really did not see any critiquing in the original thread as much as I saw tearing the guy down.



> If he presents his work as pro built, and it's not, I mean, not even close in that case.


Well, pro built to him might simply mean that he built the model himself. Or maybe he innocently thinks he is a pro for the amount of years he has been building. And maybe, it's possible, he has never seen any of the reference photos you and I take for granted


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

REL is right about honest comments, on a person's models. I don't build alot, but I can't improve if I made a mistake, and no one tells me. Only once did I get real comments on my work, and that was from David Merriman. What he told me, helped me to improve. 
Some modelers don't want to hear, that their work needs improvement. But getting really rude is not the way to do it.


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## Ohio_Southpaw (Apr 26, 2005)

I have yet to post pictures of any of my builds, there are as-of-yet none to post. I have been out out modeling for years and am getting back into it. Where I rent I have no room to build, so come next spring time that will change and I will finally be able to show my work. I know already from the hordes of beautiful builds I have seen here that my own work will be mediocre at best and I will welcome all criticism eagerly because I want to improve my skills so that I can at least hold my head up proudly around you guys. I have learned a lot already without having touched glue to styrene.

With that being said... at my worst any model I build would be far superior to what this guy is listing as "Pro-Built" and I think that is what is offending most people here. When I see those words, I expect to see close to studio quality work. Accurate, well crafted and representative the actual object being offered. 

REL is a fine example... his work is among the best I have ever had the pleasure of watching being created and built and his builds IMHO far surpass even "studio" quality. I could only hope to be about 10% as talented.

What this guy is showing I would expect from a 12 year old on his first model. I am reluctant to criticize any body's work, but when it is so obviously blatantly false advertisement as in this case then he deserves the harshest criticism we can hand out.


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## REL (Sep 30, 2005)

Raist3001 said:


> Well, pro built to him might simply mean that he built the model himself. Or maybe he innocently thinks he is a pro for the amount of years he has been building. And maybe, it's possible, he has never seen any of the reference photos you and I take for granted


Pro built, means pro built. If he doesn't know the true definition of what pro built means, then that's his issue and he opens himself to ridicule. The original thread poster was right, too many people throw pro built out there and it lessens the meaning of the word, and the result is no one will pay attention to it, especially when they click on the auction and see what passes for pro built.

Like a quote from the movie The Incredibles, "If everyone is super, then no one will be"


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## REL (Sep 30, 2005)

And the argument you have to show your work before you can critique doesn't work, I'm sorry. We can go see a movie and say it sucks without having to have produced a movie of our own, we can buy a car, it's a piece of junk, and say so, without having to have made our own car. 

We all know what looks good and what doesn't without having to have necessarily made one of our own.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Wow, a thread got closed and it wasn't my fault? 
WOOHOO!


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## nx-o1troubles (Jul 20, 2006)

exactly. i cant build a real car. or paint one. but if i see a rust in patterns of aztec patterns, i know it sucks. or if the tires are painted orange or something.
but it doesnt mean i can do that. but at least i have enough sense to realize its crap.


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## F91 (Mar 3, 2002)

Jeebus John- That was funny!!!!
To the point- When I saw those models, I thought "Hey, good starting point". I would lightly mist some white over the refit until the Aztec was toned down. The Voyager would get some grays applied to it in various shades until I liked what I saw. Silver is the perfect base coat for that ship. 
Criticize the guy? Gay?Why? The guy could be a Little League baseball coach, a volunteer for Special Olympics or an all around decent guy, you know, like US. Just because he feels the work is pro built and you don't doesn't give anyone the right to go after him. Personally, I appreciate when guys point out the mistakes in my models (thank you Mr. McGovern) It makes me a better modeler.


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## F91 (Mar 3, 2002)

I'm going with Griff on this one. If you can't do any better or you can't offer something constructive, what is the point? Seriously?



nx-o1troubles said:


> exactly. i cant build a real car. or paint one. but if i see a rust in patterns of aztec patterns, i know it sucks. or if the tires are painted orange or something.
> but it doesnt mean i can do that. but at least i have enough sense to realize its crap.


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

REL said:


> And the argument you have to show your work before you can critique doesn't work, I'm sorry. We can go see a movie and say it sucks without having to have produced a movie of our own, we can buy a car, it's a piece of junk, and say so, without having to have made our own car.
> 
> We all know what looks good and what doesn't without having to have necessarily made one of our own.


It's a whole lot different than you're trying to make out, REL. Obviously no one person works on a movie - it's a team effort. Same with building a car - not very many people at all build every component of a car, do they? I'm thinkin' not.... 

A model, on the other hand, is for the most part built by one person. Even if someone does as you do and builds a master. I don't feel that _I've_ got the right to say "what a piece of excrement" when looking at your master because I've never built one from scratch. How can I know what you put in to making the model if I've never done it before? 

It's a matter of opinion. You don't think so - I do. That's all there is to it. Our opinions differ and I doubt that either of us will change the others view on that particular opinion on the subject. 

Regardless whether you think it's right or not, it's what I think with regards to being able to bash someone elses work. I think it's wrong. Why should I believe you've got a lick of talen if you've never shown me your work, thus on what merit do you base your "it sucks" comment? You want to do that to someone elses work? Let me see yours so I can critique it, as well.


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## Raist3001 (Oct 23, 2003)

REL said:


> Pro built, means pro built. If he doesn't know the true definition of what pro built means, then that's his issue and he opens himself to ridicule.


Well, I am inclined to agree with you, but I still believe that he may be considering himself a pro based on the amount of years he says he has been building. 



> The original thread poster was right, too many people throw pro built out there and it lessens the meaning of the word, and the result is no one will pay attention to it, especially when they click on the auction and see what passes for pro built.


Well I do not think there is anyone in existence for example confusing your *pro builds* with those of this particular person, mine or anyone else's 



> Like a quote from the movie The Incredibles, "If everyone is super, then no one will be"


LOL...that was a great movie 


I have a question though. When is it appropriate to consider a build pro-built?


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## Nova Designs (Oct 10, 2000)

I agree that personal attacks on the guy are out of line. However attacks on his work... publicly displayed, offered for sale, described as "pro-built" (implying high-quality... are quite approriate.

I don't care what he thinks pro built means. I _KNOW_ what it means, most everyone does. His description is pure fiction.

If the guy posted here inviting critique as a modeler, the situation would be completely different and I'm sure many of the same people who are trashing this guy's models would be overflowing with helpful suggestions.

But this situation not that one at all. Its about someone who has finished something really poorly, offered it up for sale at a ridiculous price, and is advertising it using completely unworthy terms so as to increase its chances of sale.

Under these circumstances, its open season. :devil:


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## REL (Sep 30, 2005)

Griffworks said:


> It's a whole lot different than you're trying to make out, REL.


No it isn't. People can look at something and determine whether or not it's a thing of quality without knowing a thing about the process of how it's made. My mother could look at it and see it's bad, and she never made a model in her life. 

I do agree it could've been done with more tact, but that's just human nature.


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## Raist3001 (Oct 23, 2003)

Nova Designs said:


> However attacks on his work... publicly displayed, offered for sale, described as "pro-built" (implying high-quality... are quite approriate.


Why attacks though? As you said, if he posted here some of the same folks would be offering helpful suggestions. 



> I don't care what he thinks pro built means. I _KNOW_ what it means, most everyone does. His description is pure fiction.


I am just not convinced that he is listing his work as pro built to increase his sales. Anyone who knows anything about the refit will recognize immediately the flaws in the build. And will be inclined to pass. 

When is it deemed sensible to label a build pro-built?


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

Nova Designs said:


> I agree that personal attacks on the guy are out of line. However attacks on his work... publicly displayed, offered for sale, described as "pro-built" (implying high-quality... are quite approriate.


Not here. REL's already offered the link to the Resin Illuminati forums if you want to blast this persons work. It serves no useful purpose here, however, so it won't be allowed.


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## F91 (Mar 3, 2002)

So, I ask AGAIN- Why does anyone BLAST the guys work? What useful purpose does it serve? I would prefer to help.


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## Nova Designs (Oct 10, 2000)

Raist3001 said:


> I am just not convinced that he is listing his work as pro built to increase his sales. Anyone who knows anything about the refit will recognize immediately the flaws in the build. And will be inclined to pass.


When you post an item for sale, everything in its description is an advertisement. He may not know the meaning of the claim, but hs sure understands the implication of posting it.



Raist3001 said:


> When is it deemed sensible to label a build pro-built?


Easy, when the label fits the item, and the seller. I have a hard time buying that this guy made a 30 year _career_ out of selling models. More likely he's had the hobby for 30 years.


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## Nova Designs (Oct 10, 2000)

Griffworks said:


> Not here. REL's already offered the link to the Resin Illuminati forums if you want to blast this persons work. It serves no useful purpose here, however, so it won't be allowed.



Hey, I'm not the reason the thread was locked 

I'm just participating in an interesting debate. :thumbsup:


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## Nova Designs (Oct 10, 2000)

F91 said:


> So, I ask AGAIN- Why does anyone BLAST the guys work? What useful purpose does it serve? I would prefer to help.



Because he's trying to _sell it._ He's not asking for help, he's asking for money.


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

OK, I've seen one pic of the model. I agree that the guy is out of line with calling it "ProBuilt". It has at least one glaringly obvious problem that, as already pointed out, REL's mother could see - the aztec pattern is _much_ too prominent and needs to be toned down quite a bit. There are some other issues w/the build, as well, but I'm not going to go in to them. 

The point being that I could have just said "it sux", "the colors gay" and "the guy is an idiot for stating it's ProBuilt". However, there's no need for it when I could point out the problems the build has and then just question why the guy would call it "probuilt" when it doesn't meet the standards that most of us very likely feel it would need to be called such.


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## IndyRC_Racer (Oct 11, 2004)

The term "pro-built" also extends to other hobbies as well. I can't remember how many times I've seen "pro-built" r/c cars being sold here on Hobbytalk or "professionally painted" r/c lexan bodies only to be greatly underwhelmed by the product being sold. Don't get me started on the term rare for an obsolete piece of junk or giant parts lot that only contains left-overs and garbage.

As far as pro-built, what does that really mean? Does it mean that he is a pro at assembly? If that is the case then I'm a pro at putting together jigsaw puzzles since I've been doing that for 30+ years. Now if I have to dig up the last plastic model I did 10 years ago to have an opinion then I'll be happy to dig it up out of storage! 


BTW I found the kits on the bay, and even though I'm not a Trek modeler even a casual Trek fan can see that the paint scheme just isn't right.


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## Lou Dalmaso (Jul 13, 2004)

the best pro baseball player and the worst pro baseball player have one thing in common, they both get paid to play the game.

If this gentleman has been paid for his builds, he is by the loosest definition a professional. the degree of his talent is strictly in the eye of the beholder.

just as there are "pros" in any field of endeavor and "amateurs" .

the difference is that we seem to be in a position to want to draw those distinctions within our own hobby-world.


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## F91 (Mar 3, 2002)

Nicely done Lou.


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

Nova Designs said:


> Hey, I'm not the reason the thread was locked


And I didn't say you were. 


> I'm just participating in an interesting debate. :thumbsup:


And I have no problems with what's been said so far. Just sayin' that this isn't the place to attack someone.


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## Xenon (Nov 2, 2007)

Lads, lads ... can't we agree to disagree on how we critique someone's work, and all agree this guy's builds weren't so great based on what we're used to seeing?


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## El Gato (Jul 15, 2000)

Lou Dalmaso said:


> the best pro baseball player and the worst pro baseball player have one thing in common, they both get paid to play the game.
> 
> If this gentleman has been paid for his builds, he is by the loosest definition a professional. the degree of his talent is strictly in the eye of the beholder.
> 
> ...


Well said, Lou. My two cents is that the guy put his work _out for sale_ under the premise that it's _"pro built."_ Those two things make his work eligible for criticism, but not ridicule. On that count I agree with REL and Nova and we should not shy away from criticizing the work. The model is not accurate, not assembled well and the painting leaves a lot to be desired. 

The problem with the posts in the other thread bashed the modeler. There's a huge difference between the two statements:

"José, your model's hopeless: you painted it warm gray instead of using a cool gray, you have glue glops and these parts are upside down. If you tried this, that and the other, maybe it'll be closer to what you want."

"José, your assembly is ugly, your colors are gay and you suck."


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## Raist3001 (Oct 23, 2003)

Lou Dalmaso said:


> the best pro baseball player and the worst pro baseball player have one thing in common, they both get paid to play the game.
> 
> If this gentleman has been paid for his builds, he is by the loosest definition a professional. the degree of his talent is strictly in the eye of the beholder.
> 
> ...


Well said Lou. Well said. Which is why I have asked when a build is suitable to be labeled pro built. In the builders eyes, his auction contains a pro built item regardless of his skill set. 



> On that count I agree with REL and Nova and we should not shy away from criticizing the work.


I absolutely agree. But as you have said, there is a big difference between critiquing someones work and being mean.

This is what Jeff's point has been all along.


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## The Trekmodeler (Jul 21, 2005)

Lou Dalmaso said:


> the best pro baseball player and the worst pro baseball player have one thing in common, they both get paid to play the game.
> 
> If this gentleman has been paid for his builds, he is by the loosest definition a professional. the degree of his talent is strictly in the eye of the beholder.
> 
> ...



Lou, Well said! :thumbsup:


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## El Gato (Jul 15, 2000)

Raist3001 said:


> I absolutely agree. But as you have said, there is a big difference between critiquing someones work and being mean.
> 
> This is what Jeff's point has been all along.


True, but regardless of how well Jeff has said it, it appears the message is not getting through. That's why people like you, Lou, Raist, Rich and me have been sounding like Jeff's chorus. We're all saying the same thing, really.


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## Raist3001 (Oct 23, 2003)

Nova Designs said:


> When you post an item for sale, everything in its description is an advertisement. He may not know the meaning of the claim, but hs sure understands the implication of posting it.


Well in this case, the implication is that he believes he is a pro builder. My point has always been, regardless of how we feel about his skill set, why rob the guy of his pride by saying mean things?




> > When is it deemed sensible to label a build pro-built?
> 
> 
> Easy, when the label fits the item, and the seller.


Who is to say when the label fits the item and the seller?


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## Lou Dalmaso (Jul 13, 2004)

^^well, not to be too much of a smart-hole about it, but if you sell something
once it could be a fluke ( no offence to FLUKE  )

if you sell repeatedly, you are a professional. 

Now if your profession requires a cetification (doctor, Lawyer, plumber...)to be "legit" then you must pass certain mandated tests to call yourself a professional.

Lucky for us model builders (like most other artists) don't have to prove anything beyond the ability to sell our wares to be called professional.

and if you can make enough that the tax man comes a-knockin' , you can bet your caboose you're professional


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## REL (Sep 30, 2005)

Well, labeling yourself a pro also entitles you to all criticisms and praise that title entails; you have to take the good with the bad. 

Lou is right, if you make something and someone buys it, you're now instantly a professional model builder, technically by definition. But in this case we're not dealing with the actual definition of pro, but what someone would expect the quality to be that's labeled as such. 

As for being nice, if you're a pro and in it for business, there's no niceties in the business world, it's cut throat and only the fittest survive.


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## nx-o1troubles (Jul 20, 2006)

Griffworks said:


> Not here. REL's already offered the link to the Resin Illuminati forums if you want to blast this persons work. It serves no useful purpose here, however, so it won't be allowed.


Im not seeing it. All I see is a home page.


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

To step to *Nova Designs'* defense here, he's entitled to his opinion just like the rest of us. I don't agree that we should bag on this person and their work or reasons for the label that this person has put of "ProBuilt" for trying to sell his model. However, *ND* has just as much a right to state what he thinks as well as the rest of us - so long as he's not making attacks I have no problem with it. I might not agree with it, but I don't have a problem with him holding an opinion different from mine. There are a lot of ways that you can essentially "that sucks" w/o actually doing so. It just takes more words and effort than some folks are willing to put in to it. 

And I'm not saying that *Nova Designs* is one of those folks. Indeed not, because he's always expressed himself very well. It's just a general thought with the "that sucks" line of "critique".  

Besides, this'd be a really boring place if we all agreed on everything 100% of the time.


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## Lou Dalmaso (Jul 13, 2004)

one last thought. 
since we don't know the intent of this gent, whos to say that his goal was not to create a screen accurate rendition, but merely to treat the PL kit as a canvas to express his own ideas? think of it as Abstract Expressionism meets Starfleet Command.

I know, but the Devil's Advocate is so fun to play sometimes.


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## Raist3001 (Oct 23, 2003)

REL said:


> Well, labeling yourself a pro also entitles you to all criticisms and praise that title entails; you have to take the good with the bad.


I don't think anyone denies this. I am certainly not. If it weren't for folks pointing out what they did not like about my Aztec experiments, I may not have done any more. But again, there is a big difference in critiquing a guys work, and then being mean for the sake of being mean.


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

REL said:


> Well, labeling yourself a pro also entitles you to all criticisms and praise that title entails; you have to take the good with the bad.
> 
> *>SNIP!<*


 No arguments from me. It's how those criticisms are sometimes presented with which I take personal issue. 


> As for being nice, if you're a pro and in it for business, there's no niceties in the business world, it's cut throat and only the fittest survive.


But doesn't that "only the fittest survive" level of cut-throated-ness apply to those in competition? Are you saying that this person's work is in direct competition with your own...?


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## REL (Sep 30, 2005)

I understand that, and I wouldn't be mean to the guy. But when he put the label of Pro on something, he's in a way elevating himself above other people, and that will usually cause people to bring him down and try to look for even more flaws in his work than if he didn't use that label...as the previous thread demonstrated. 

Like I said, it's human nature.


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## REL (Sep 30, 2005)

Griffworks said:


> Are you saying that this person's work is in direct competition with your own...?


Ba Humbug. :lol:


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## mikephys (Mar 16, 2005)

El Gato said:


> The problem with the posts in the other thread bashed the modeler. There's a huge difference between the two statements:
> 
> "José, your model's hopeless: you painted it warm gray instead of using a cool gray, you have glue glops and these parts are upside down. If you tried this, that and the other, maybe it'll be closer to what you want."
> 
> "José, your assembly is ugly, your colors are gay and you suck."


Excellent. That perfectly illustrates what Jeff is saying. Any professional modeler would invite criticism in order to improve his work. However, the people on the giving end need to be professional too. If we all drop to the level of a "survival of the fittest," cutthroat mentality, life becomes a little darker and less enjoyable IMO. Be honest, but honest does not need to be tactless and rude to be honest.
Mike


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## terryr (Feb 11, 2001)

Professional simply means you make money at it. Amateur means you don't.

A pro streetwalker ain't neccessarily pretty, or good at it.


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

ROTFLMAO! :lol: Good one!


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## F91 (Mar 3, 2002)

A "dirty" version of the exact same thing Lou said.


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## El Gato (Jul 15, 2000)

terryr said:


> Professional simply means you make money at it. Amateur means you don't.
> 
> A pro streetwalker ain't neccessarily pretty, or good at it.


:lol: In college we used to refer to something that was half-_baked_ as a "$10 hooker." It meant it wasn't pretty but it got the job done.

Jeff, if you're going to edit my posts, I suggest spelling the replacement term correctly...  :tongue:


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## 1711rob (Mar 15, 2006)

We now return you to our Regularly scheduled model building project. ... :wave:


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## Nova Designs (Oct 10, 2000)

Raist3001 said:


> Well in this case, the implication is that he believes he is a pro builder. My point has always been, regardless of how we feel about his skill set, why rob the guy of his pride by saying mean things?


I don't see it that way. To me, his implication is to add glitter terms to his product in the hopes of generating as much cash for it as possible. This is eBay we're talking about after all. I get no sense of pride from his auction text, only sales gimmickry.




> Who is to say when the label fits the item and the seller?


Well, _me_ for one. I think I am qualified, as a genuine professional artist, to make that distinction for myself. Given the opportunity I would also advise anyone seeking my opinion that they should pass on this guy's work. I may not be a modeler of Richard's skill level, but I've made a pretty good living as an artist for more than 25 years--I know when something is done well or not. But I still don't think you 

And as much as I would concede that one could strictly define a "professional" as someone who sells their work, I don't believe that its anywhere _near_ that simple. I think there is much more to professionalism than simply selling an item. When it comes to selling works of art I equate a "pro" with an experienced, skilled artisan, one who has a keen eye, knows his subject and executes it expertly.

This person just doesn't meet any of those criteria.


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## Nova Designs (Oct 10, 2000)

El Gato said:


> :lol: In college we used to refer to something that was half-backed as a "$10 hooker." It meant it wasn't pretty but it got the job done.



Hahaha, I remember that term! :wave:


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

If as much attention is given to at least half the models posted here, we might get more models posted. 

I posted a model at another forum, it had 100 views, and no comments. I posted, "Links removed for lack of interest.", then I had interest.

Here you have a guy on e-bay, who will not read what is being said about his work, and we are on a second thread! 

I see some serious problems with the hobby, when the support is leaving. 

I agree that comments are needed, and I mean honest opinions, that help the modeler.
I would rather have some one say my modeling skills need work, than to read a "I don't want to offend" remarks.


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## WarpCore Breach (Apr 27, 2005)

"Hello, I'm WCB, and my modeling skills need work."  

I didn't have much issue with the Voyager model as I thought it looked pretty good. The colours were different, true, but they worked reasonably well together. Almost like an artistic interpetation.

The Refit however, was another matter. The blue was far too contrasty, and like most Ebay pictures, were too small to really get a good idea of details. Anyone notice that the hull number was up one ring too far? Looks like an AMT/Ertl model to me. 

Is he a pro builder? I don't know. His colour choices - unless he's going for a strictly artistic interpetation - are not screen or miniature accurate. One would expect a "pro builder" to at least pay attention to details like that; I know I would want to have a model (if bidding on it) to be at least decently represtenative of what I saw onscreen.

But I also did not contact the guy, like Nova did. He's selling, not looking for advice. My own building skills (like I mentioned above) need work, painting skills LOTS of work and I do not sell models - they do not meet my criteria for selling, unless they're still in the box, in pieces or mostly so. :wave:


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

How 'bout "Well, I don't want to offend, but you're modeling skills need a little work. I'd start off with...."  


Lloyd does bring up a good point, tho. I've seen a few threads here where folks don't seem to respond to folks posting pics of their models. Lots of views, but no one comments, even if it's to say "hey, that's not bad, but...." and add a suggestion or observation of the kit. That's just sorta sad - and this isn't the only forum at which I see a lot of that going on. 

The whole point I've been trying to make is that we shouldn't be afraid to show our work, nor should we be afraid to offer up some constructive criticism - or take said constructive criticism. We're here not only to drool over the works of our peers, but to grown as modelers, right? To learn new techniques and share ideas. Don't get angry if someone says "hey, dude, that doesn't look all that great, what you should do to fix it is..." Tell that person "thanks, I'll look at doing that". 

I hope that when I start showing some of my in-progress stuff (once I get back home) and start finishing some models that you guys will point out flaws and make observations on how to correct certain issues. 

Remember how a month or so back that REL was working on his K'T'Inga master and someone (Nova Designs?) pointed out that the top forward section of the secondary hull was flat when it should have been bowed upward slightly? And then he and/or someone showed pics of the studio model to illustrate the point? It wasn't done in a rude, biting fashion nor was REL's response negative. Someone pointed out a mistake and REL took it with excellent grace and said "thank you". 

You see, I *want* you guys to tell me when I've done wrong, what I might do to correct a mistake, a new way to mask off an area and the like. The only thing I really *don't* want to hear is "your work sux" 'cause that doesn't help me to grow as a modeler. I'm sure a lot of other folks feel the same way, both with regards to the critiques and the mean-spirited, unhelpful junk.


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## F91 (Mar 3, 2002)

I have a great idea!!! If you think his work is terrible, don't bid on the item!!! That'll teach him!!!!!
Oh- Here's my Voyager and I did sell it, but I wouldn't consider myself a professional, I don't make a living at it. Oh, and hack away, I got big shoulders-

http://groups.msn.com/AURORAMODELS/voyager.msnw


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## The-Nightsky (May 10, 2005)

You know..... I was following that thread and although I did not like the color choices His models looked to have been well built. Perhaps this person was excercising "Artistic Liscense" I have a metallic purple LIS robot that I built for myself because I wanted to paint it like a hot rod......I really liked his Reliant.....And he SOLD it. So I challenge ALL of you who made nasty remarks to post something of your own. Wanna see something bad?? I'll post my scratch built Deathstar....Now theres a threat!!!! NUFF SAID!


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## Nova Designs (Oct 10, 2000)

F91 said:


> I have a great idea!!! If you think his work is terrible, don't bid on the item!!! That'll teach him!!!!!
> Oh- Here's my Voyager and I did sell it, but I wouldn't consider myself a professional, I don't make a living at it. Oh, and hack away, I got big shoulders-
> 
> http://groups.msn.com/AURORAMODELS/voyager.msnw



That Voyager model is awesome. :thumbsup:


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

Smart aleck.


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## BARRYZ28 (Mar 3, 2007)

Ok guys, I’m going to throw out a hypothetical scenario.

You have a person who enjoys building models and has for the last 30 years. His dad introduced him to the hobby when he was young and it is one, if not the only thing he enjoys to do and gives him a great deal of satisfaction and pride. His father who always helped and encouraged him is long since gone but he continues to build, even to this day. His pear group has seen his builds and is impressed by what he has done. Because they are not model builders at all and have no real idea of what passes as “Pro built” but they still praise his work and encourage him to keep it up. 
He gets and idea from someone to sell on Ebay but does not have any computer skills to list an auction. Someone from his pear group has some computers skills and understands Ebay somewhat, and helps him out. Together they sell on Ebay, but the computer savvy person does all the descriptions and is aware that he has been building for 30 years. They come up with the idea to say “Pro Built” because of all the years of experience. He makes a few sales and sticks with the “Pro Built” description because it works, and if something works you don’t fool with it. The sales on Ebay supplement his income from his low paying job. It allows him to continue on with his hobby as well as other areas of his life. He is able to purchase other models or supplies that were out of reach due to the lack of funds.
Now comes the curve ball, let’s say this individual is mentally handicap. It would explain why he thinks after 30 years of building he is a “Pro Builder” even though in our eyes the models are lacking. It would also explain the incorrect colors and the less then perfect construction. If you try to look at it from his perspective, the models would be great builds and should be worthy of selling on Ebay. If he is also selling on Ebay and people are buying his build, more power to him. He’s making money off of his hobby and that is more then most of us can say.
Now if he isn’t mentally handicap, that Pro description should be changed, but what the heck, he’s still selling and making money. It only goes to prove what my father use to say, there’s a sucker born every minute and they are buying his “Pro Builds”.
Before you make comments that tear a builder a new one you should sit back and think a little about the person that made the build. This hobby encompasses a wide spectrum of people and not everyone fits into your ideal cookie cutter mold. Some are so far from the mold it is just great to see them trying to fit in with the rest of you guys.


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## F91 (Mar 3, 2002)

There are a million things wrong with it. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder AND the guy who bought it.



Nova Designs said:


> That Voyager model is awesome. :thumbsup:


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

BARRYZ28, that is quite a scenario. It does make one think, that respect of others skills, should not be forgotten. Thanks for the reality check!


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## user1127 (Jun 11, 2002)

*Pro-Built (revisited)*

I could have sworn the entire 'Pro-Built' scenario for Ebay models was visited a few years back - with obvious bashing, crashing, and deletion of replies made by several people for inappropriate remarks. If people desire to buy toast that look like religious figures for thousands of dollars, or Pro-Built puzzles of SciFi plastic, then why not join in? ...or even assemble something better and brag about it instead?


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## CaptFrank (Jan 29, 2005)

I haven't read this entire "huh?" thread yet, but I
can't believe no one liked my "Andorian chicken pox"
comment!


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## scotpens (Sep 6, 2003)

Actually, that WAS funny.

And to BARRYZ28: I wish I had your faith in people and your ability to assume that folks always have the best intentions!


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## PhilipMarlowe (Jan 23, 2004)

BARRYZ28 said:


> Ok guys, I’m going to throw out a hypothetical scenario.
> 
> You have a person who enjoys building models and has for the last 30 years. His dad introduced him to the hobby when he was young and it is one, if not the only thing he enjoys to do and gives him a great deal of satisfaction and pride. His father who always helped and encouraged him is long since gone but he continues to build, even to this day. His pear group has seen his builds and is impressed by what he has done. Because they are not model builders at all and have no real idea of what passes as “Pro built” but they still praise his work and encourage him to keep it up.
> He gets and idea from someone to sell on Ebay but does not have any computer skills to list an auction. Someone from his pear group has some computers skills and understands Ebay somewhat, and helps him out. Together they sell on Ebay, but the computer savvy person does all the descriptions and is aware that he has been building for 30 years. They come up with the idea to say “Pro Built” because of all the years of experience. He makes a few sales and sticks with the “Pro Built” description because it works, and if something works you don’t fool with it. The sales on Ebay supplement his income from his low paying job. It allows him to continue on with his hobby as well as other areas of his life. He is able to purchase other models or supplies that were out of reach due to the lack of funds.
> ...



Uh Barry, by the same token, he might be Osama Bin Ladin. Or the Fox executive that canceled _Firefly_ and _Futurama_.

Pro-built means pro-built. Like obscenity, it might be hard to define, but I know what it is when I see it. And those models were not pro-built. And if somebody advertises an amatuerly built model as pro-built, we of the rest of the world shouldn't have to worry whether he's Forrest Gump or not when declaring it doesn't meet the accepted standards.


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## SteveR (Aug 7, 2005)

Somebody might think that just because he sold a model kit he's a pro, and can call it "pro-built". A lot of folks with jobs don't realize that being a "pro" means you make your living (or a significant portion thereof) doing the activity in question. 

At any rate, I don't think the Bay listings are worth getting in a twist over. Does it make sense to call attention to it on a model board? I don't think so, because we don't need educating on what "pro-built" looks like. Who needs educating? The guys with the money who don't read these boards. <shrug>

Hey -- if you're a pro who sells on eBay, take great pictures of your models so it'll be obvious that they really _are_ pro-built. :thumbsup:


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## Zombie_61 (Apr 21, 2004)

I can understand and, to a point, agree with both sides of this discussion.

On one side we have a person who may or may not be using the term "pro built" in an attempt to receive more money for an item he's selling. Clearly none of us know his true intentions. However, when the product in question does not meet the definition of "pro built" by most standards, it is easy to assume he is being intentionally misleading. Also, in doing so IMO he is inviting all manner of criticisms; if a person is going to claim an item has been faithfully created to professional quality, that level of quality should be apparent to even the most casual observer.

On the other side, we have a moderator whose responsibility it is to monitor these forums who clearly believes the previous comments about this person's talents served no useful purpose and were not in keeping with the spirit of this particular forum, so he not only exercised one of his duties by discontinuing that discussion, but clearly stated his reasons for doing so.

IMO, the bottom line is this--this is not our playground, we've merely been given permission to play here. Griff is here to "keep the peace", and that's what he's done.


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## user1127 (Jun 11, 2002)

*Pro Built*

Non-Pro built (LOL):


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## F91 (Mar 3, 2002)

Nice Dime!! Looks real!


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## El Gato (Jul 15, 2000)

user1127 said:


> Non-Pro built (LOL):





F91 said:


> Nice Dime!! Looks real!


OMG, it looks so real!! But be very, very careful, user1127. You don't want to bumb up against counterfeiting laws. Granted, your dime looks HUGE, dwarfing those speedboat shuttles, so no one should be able to confuse your model against a real one. Still, you did a very good job of modeling one. :thumbsup:


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

I don't know. Roosevelt's nose looks a little large. Pretty good work for an amateur though.


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## Raist3001 (Oct 23, 2003)

Zombie_61 said:


> Griff is here to "keep the peace", and that's what he's done.


Well said


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## user1127 (Jun 11, 2002)

..no...no - you guys got it all wrong! Those are the large scale resin shuttles. If you noticed, they're sittng on the *CMDF *platform - they've been *pro*fessionally miniaturized.


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## terry9911 (Nov 5, 2006)

I'm just a diecast collector who happened to visit the modeling site. This thread reminds me of all the people cracking on each other in the Hot Wheels Collectors Club, but what do you guys define as "pro built?" 

Obviously it means more than just making a buck for putting a model together. Do years in the field building models make it so? Does it mean you make your own molds for a model? Can anyone explain it to me? And yes I build model cars (1:24) scale.


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## Hand Solo (Aug 1, 2007)

Doing buildups/paint-ups and some scratchbuilding puts food on my table, so I can say that my own stuff is 'Pro-Built'... but it took me 34 years to get to the point that I was being PAID for this and making a career out of it.

As to how 'good' it is, that's up to my patrons and my peers to decide.

Now this person referenced in the original closed thread... selling on E(vil)bay? Well... I guess they call the terms he uses in the Ad Biz as 'Buzz-words'. It's up to the buyer to educate him/herself on just what 'pro-built' means to them and weigh the risk of investment accordingly.


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