# TOS Enterprise 1/350th: Source for Quiet Electric Motors to spin Bussard Domes?



## taneal1 (Jul 27, 2014)

Is there a concensus as to the quietist motors to spin the Bussard Domes on the 1/350th Enterprise? I'm not finding anything recent...

Thanks for any thoughts!
Tom


----------



## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

I heard that Tenacontrols is supposed to be quieter than the Polar Lights lighting kit. But I can't testify to that.


TOS 1:350 Motor Fan Blade and Control Boards – TenaControls



-Jim G.G.


----------



## taneal1 (Jul 27, 2014)

JGG1701 said:


> I heard that Tenacontrols is supposed to be quieter than the Polar Lights lighting kit. But I can't testify to that.
> 
> 
> TOS 1:350 Motor Fan Blade and Control Boards – TenaControls
> ...


Thanks, Jim.
Tenacontrols includes all the lights except for the windows, and I already have these, so its an unnecessary additional expense. It appears that the remote control is required to alter the speed of the motors/lights, which brings the price up to $212.40! 

I'd prefer to just get a pair of quiet electric motors...


----------



## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

Wow! Quite pricey. 
Is this the type of motors you're looking for?:


Amazon.com : n20 motor 12v


-Jim G.G.


----------



## Milton Fox Racing (May 27, 2014)

Is there a motor you are already considering over any of the others with a reasonable price @taneal1


----------



## The_Engineer (Dec 8, 2012)

From what I remember, there was a couple of things that some have done to lessen the noise from the motors. One is the lowered the voltage and the second was they wrapped the motors in (I think) a foam pad as noise reduction.


----------



## taneal1 (Jul 27, 2014)

JGG1701 said:


> Wow! Quite pricey.


Thanks for link!

I have no idea how much the Tenacontrols motors cost, but your Amazon link gives many, many _possibly suitable_ motors for $10-$15.

Questions:
_Max motor size?_
It appears that the nacelle interior diameter is the only necessary dimension, but from experience I have to wonder if other factors further restrict motor dims...

_What is the actual RPM of the spinning domes that matches the TOS video?_
low RPM (IMO a higher than necessary RPM so the motor can be run at a minimal speed to reduce noise level and heat production)

_Would a long motor shaft produce too much vibration/noise?_
This would allow locating the motor at the position of the nacelle support strut for balance. Adding weight at the forward end of the nacelle would tend to move the nacelle out of alignment with the ship over time. An alternative would be to add ballast to the aft end, which of course would increase the total weight of the model and may be undesirable...

Motor requirements:
low noise/vibration (This seems to be the most important factor to everyone)
low RPM
low heat production
low weight (probably not much of an issue due to the small motor size required)

Any thoughts per the above are appreciated.


----------



## taneal1 (Jul 27, 2014)

Milton Fox Racing said:


> Is there a motor you are already considering over any of the others with a reasonable price @taneal1


Not yet. I have too many unknowns to contend with.


----------



## taneal1 (Jul 27, 2014)

The_Engineer said:


> From what I remember, there was a couple of things that some have done to lessen the noise from the motors. One is the lowered the voltage and the second was they wrapped the motors in (I think) a foam pad as noise reduction.


Yes. the foam decoupled the motors from the nacelle structure, and reduced the noise exacerbated by the hollow nacelle.


----------



## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

I wouldn't wrap the motors.
Would that promote heat?
Stuffing the Nacelle tubes with foam, I heard reduced the noise. 
-Jim G.G.


----------



## Milton Fox Racing (May 27, 2014)

The motor probably would not be run fast enough or long enough to cause it to over heat - unless you left it on for hours at a time. Wrapping the motor is more to prevent vibrations from it - to transfer to the hollow nacelleas as @taneal1 experienced.

Would painting the inside of nacelles with a sound deadner product or just a rubberized paint help? Or are there still some openings that the sound can still escape through?


----------



## taneal1 (Jul 27, 2014)

Milton Fox Racing said:


> The motor probably would not be run fast enough or long enough to cause it to over heat - unless you left it on for hours at a time.


Agreed. The motor would be unlikely to overheat during normal usage. 

But, I do wonder if it could do long term damage to the plastic, wiring, lighting, etc.



> Would painting the inside of nacelles with a sound deadner product or just a rubberized paint help?


Can you provide any additional info re "paint" that would deaden the sound?


----------



## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

taneal1 said:


> Agreed. The motor would be unlikely to overheat during normal usage.
> 
> But, I do wonder if it could do long term damage to the plastic, wiring, lighting, etc.
> 
> ...


Found this:








Amazon.com: Design Engineering 050220 Boom Mat Spray-on Sound Deadening to Reduce Unwanted Road Noise and Vibration : Automotive


Buy Design Engineering 050220 Boom Mat Spray-on Sound Deadening to Reduce Unwanted Road Noise and Vibration: Insulation - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases



www.amazon.com




Annnnd this:








Amazon.com: Rust-Oleum 248656 Professional Grade Rubberized Undercoating Spray, 15 oz, Black : Automotive


Buy Rust-Oleum 248656 Professional Grade Rubberized Undercoating Spray, 15 oz, Black: Undercoatings - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases



www.amazon.com




-Jim G.G.


----------



## Milton Fox Racing (May 27, 2014)

I was also thinking along the line of automotive sound deadeners they spray onto the inside of the floorboards and panels of cars now before the insulation, carpet and mats are installed.

Another source for this type of material might be an audio installation shop or supplier. They often add to the factory installed options. I also remember many speakers used to come with bead like, foam or styrafoam pieces inside of them.


----------



## taneal1 (Jul 27, 2014)

Milton Fox Racing said:


> I was also thinking along the line of automotive sound deadeners they spray onto the inside of the floorboards and panels of cars now before the insulation, carpet and mats are installed.
> 
> Another source for this type of material might be an audio installation shop or supplier. They often add to the factory installed options. I also remember many speakers used to come with bead like, foam or styrafoam pieces inside of them.


These are good ideas.

Anyone who gets, or already has their electric motors could measure and post the db levels at different speeds with a free cell phone app. This would allow a comparison of individual products. The quieter the stand-alone motor is, the better the final results of noise reduction methods.

When I can find some suitable motors, my plan is to compare the noise levels produced by each "quieting" method using one nacelle as a "control" and altering the second "test" nacelle for comparison. I'm thinking of starting with the motor installed and no sound reduction to establish a baseline with a db meter. With this method I can also listen to each configuration for a "by ear" comparison. Based upon the frequencies involved this _may_ be a better measure of the results than db measurements.

Next, isolate the electric motor from the nacelle structure, measure and listen. Repeat for foam insulation, sound-deadening paint, etc.

Also, thermal sensors could be temporarily installed inside the nacelles to measure the actual interior temps if it appears the temp is high enough to weaken/damage the plastic, etc.

Of course, if anyone else would like to do the above I certainly would prefer that method!


----------



## MartyS (Mar 11, 2014)

I found that the entire model becomes a soundboard so to get the stock polar lights motors quiet I had to decouple them completely from the model.

I used a plastic rod with a hole drilled down the middle for a mount that goes into the hole on the model, a small metal rod with small silicone tubing to couple the motor shaft to the spinning part, then used larger latex surgical tubing to couple the motor to the plastic rod mount.

The parts:









The parts assembled:









All together:









Since latex does get stiffer over time I did not glue the end caps on the nacelles, put some scotch tape on the parts to get a good press fit. So they can be pulled off and the rubber tubing replaced if/when it starts getting noisier or falls apart. 

This setup runs very quiet, you can just barely hear the motors running. I'm guessing that if I put foam around the motors it would be completely silent.

Edit: Forgot to mention that those gearboxes on the polar lights motors come apart easily, so I put clear shrink wrap around the motors to hold them all together. There are very small gears inside that gearbox, it was not fun when one came apart while I was fitting the rubber tubing onto one of them.


----------



## taneal1 (Jul 27, 2014)

Thanks, Marty!

This is a smart way to isolate motor from model...



MartyS said:


> I found that the entire model becomes a soundboard so to get the stock polar lights motors quiet I had to decouple them completely from the model.


The Polar Lights "Lighting Installation Instructions" state: _Insert the motor through the rear of the Bussard Housing part #41._ In this configuration, the electric motor is firmly inset within the circular opening in the Bussard Housing which in turn is plugged into the nacelle end.

If I understand this, your alteration now connects the motor to the Bussard Housing _only_ through the flexible latex tubing. i.e. There is an empty space between the Housing and the motor, and thus, they are no longer in direct contact. An elegant and effective fix for certain!

The Bussard Housing plugs into the front of the nacelle. This provides a path from the extended motor shaft/spinning dome to the hollow nacelle which seems to amplify any noise/vibration. Marty's fix decouples the motor shaft from the (separate) extended shaft which is connected to the spinning dome, so I doubt this results in much noise. However, every little bit helps, so it still may be worth decoupling these two components by adding foam, rubber or something similar to this interface joint.


----------



## RossW (Jan 12, 2000)

Some thoughts:

you want motors with metal gears; they last longer, can be lubricated and are generally quieter
are you just going to wire these up to a power supply directly? Ideally, you would use a pulse-width modulation (PWM) DC motor controller board to set the speed with a given voltage input (Which depends on the motor). I think the motors on the 11’ miniature spun at roughly 60 RPM but slightly slower is better for the scale of this kit
there are a number of threads here from modellers (including me) who’ve solved the motor sound issue in various ways - do a board search
i started my kit using some super expensive (but quiet) Faulhaber motors but ended up going with some stepper motors:

Faulhaber DC Motor

Stepper Motor


----------



## taneal1 (Jul 27, 2014)

Ross,

Thanks for the response.



RossW said:


> there are a number of threads here from modellers (including me) who’ve solved the motor sound issue in various ways - do a board search




Yes, I'm going through the threads, and have found a bunch of helpful ideas. It takes a while to plow through threads with dozens of pages to pull out just the pertinent info.

It appears you want to provide all the data for your Motor Controller, but I've been through your site and have been unable to find any schematic to assemble the TMC2208 driver board, Palolu Astar 32U4 chip, and Rotary Encoder. Can you provide a link, please?


----------



## Alien (Sep 5, 2001)

I am with Ross.
Mini stepper motors work great and are virtually silent. The downside is that you typically need a microcontroller to drive them. (They cannot just be connected to DC to make the motor spin.)
I have used some for my Enterprise (Yet to be completed) and have programmed a microcontroller to slowly speed them up and slow them down when they start and stop instead of them just always running at the same speed.
I used mini steppers with a 1:50 gear box like:6.88US $ |15mm Micro DC Precision Stepper Motor Mini Drive GearBox 1:10 1:50 1:100 1:298 DIY Monitor PTZ Lens scale driven design Dust pro|DC Motor| - AliExpress

The gear box is required as mini steppers step around 15 degrees per step and this looks very jittery if the fan blade dome is connected directly to the motor. (Yes, I have tried it!)
And you do have to do a little surgery on the kit part to make the motors fit. But that is the easiest bit.


----------



## taneal1 (Jul 27, 2014)

Thanks for the reply, Alien



Alien said:


> I am with Ross.
> Mini stepper motors work great and are virtually silent. The downside is that you typically need a microcontroller to drive them. (They cannot just be connected to DC to make the motor spin.)


Quite helpful information.

For an utter novice, how difficult is the microcontroller programming for this application?


----------



## Alien (Sep 5, 2001)

taneal1 said:


> For an utter novice, how difficult is the microcontroller programming for this application?


If you know how to program a micro controller then controlling a stepper motor is really easy.
You need 4 i/o ports configured as outputs.You sequence turning them on and then off in a certain order
Changing the order will reverse the motor direction.
Pulsing them faster will increase the motor speed.and vice versa.
So if you can use a microcontroller to flash LEDs, then you are almost there.

You can use a 1293D motor driver chip to interface the microcontroller with the motor as a microcontroller is unable to supply the necessary current to drive a motor of any kind. This chip can also be used to run normal DC motors as well as steppers.

Have a look at: All About Stepper Motors


----------



## RossW (Jan 12, 2000)

taneal1 said:


> Ross,
> 
> Thanks for the response.
> 
> ...


Here's the link to my Google Drive folder which has everything you need to build my stepper motor controller (PDFs of the schematic and board are in sub-folders):

TOS E 1/350 Warp Engine Stepper Motor Controller


----------



## taneal1 (Jul 27, 2014)

RossW said:


> Here's the link to my Google Drive folder which has everything you need to build my stepper motor controller (PDFs of the schematic and board are in sub-folders):
> 
> TOS E 1/350 Warp Engine Stepper Motor Controller


Ross,

Thanks for the link. I found these folders a couple of days ago using a link from one of your Youtube videos. Presumably, the "PDF" folder located several levels down from the "Eagle" folder holds the necessary files.
Rev4 - Google Drive

This folder will not open for me...


----------



## RossW (Jan 12, 2000)

taneal1 said:


> Ross,
> 
> Thanks for the link. I found these folders a couple of days ago using a link from one of your Youtube videos. Presumably, the "PDF" folder located several levels down from the "Eagle" folder holds the necessary files.
> Rev4 - Google Drive
> ...


How about this:





__





Rev4 - Google Drive







drive.google.com


----------



## taneal1 (Jul 27, 2014)

RossW said:


> How about this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks Ross, but that's identical to the link I posted above and produces the same results. i.e. It won't happen.


----------



## RossW (Jan 12, 2000)

taneal1 said:


> Thanks Ross, but that's identical to the link I posted above and produces the same results. i.e. It won't happen.


Do you not have a Google account? That might be the problem.


----------



## MartyS (Mar 11, 2014)

taneal1 said:


> If I understand this, your alteration now connects the motor to the Bussard Housing _only_ through the flexible latex tubing. i.e. There is an empty space between the Housing and the motor, and thus, they are no longer in direct contact. An elegant and effective fix for certain!


Yes, the plastic rod I made goes in the hole where the motor would go, and all physical contact between the motor and the model is through soft latex or silicone tubing (and the flexible power wires).


----------



## RossW (Jan 12, 2000)

I zipped up the folder - can you access this?






Warp Engine Motors.zip







drive.google.com


----------



## taneal1 (Jul 27, 2014)

Thanks for all the effort Ross! This worked. Everything necessary is there -- thanks for sharing. Not everyone is SO generous with their work. I _do_ have a Google account, BTW, so I still don't know what the problem is...

In lieu of your custom PCB I could mount the components to plexiglass and direct wire everything. So, all I need is something to program the controller. Given your experience with this, can you recommend a specific programmer?


----------



## RossW (Jan 12, 2000)

taneal1 said:


> Thanks for all the effort Ross! This worked. Everything necessary is there -- thanks for sharing. Not everyone is SO generous with their work. I _do_ have a Google account, BTW, so I still don't know what the problem is...
> 
> In lieu of your custom PCB I could mount the components to plexiglass and direct wire everything. So, all I need is something to program the controller. Given your experience with this, can you recommend a specific programmer?


No worries, taneal1. I'm a big believer in sharing work.

You don't have to use the PCB, but honestly it's really straightforward - you upload the .brd file from the Eagle folder to OSHPark and they manufacture it for you (min. 3). Costs about $15.

To program an Arduino, you just need to download the IDE program (from Arduino) and connect it via a USB cable to the board (available at https://www.pololu.com/product/3101).


----------



## taneal1 (Jul 27, 2014)

RossW said:


> You don't have to use the PCB, but honestly it's really straightforward - you upload the .brd file from the Eagle folder to OSHPark and they manufacture it for you (min. 3). Costs about $15.


Thanks again, Ross.

I was totally unaware that this could be done so inexpensively, and I certainly will do that! For future reference, how does one create a .brd file?

Tom


----------



## RossW (Jan 12, 2000)

taneal1 said:


> Thanks again, Ross.
> 
> I was totally unaware that this could be done so inexpensively, and I certainly will do that! For future reference, how does one create a .brd file?
> 
> Tom


You don’t have to create it - I provide that in the Eagle sub folder. I designed the board in Autodesk Eagle Cadsoft and luckily OSHPark uses that as the input.


----------



## RossW (Jan 12, 2000)

Here’s my presentation from my 2017 WonderFest demo on Arduino. Hope it helps.


----------



## taneal1 (Jul 27, 2014)

RossW said:


> Here’s my presentation from my 2017 WonderFest demo on Arduino. Hope it helps.


Thanks! Again VERY helpful. You are exceptionally thorough in your work. I'm going to start getting my order together for all the necessary components.

I'm thinking of mounting the rheostat on the base to allow outside control of the spinning effect...


Is this a 4-bladed cooling fan on the shaft? This is a photo from the NASM Enterprise restoration:


----------



## RossW (Jan 12, 2000)

taneal1 said:


> Thanks! Again VERY helpful. You are exceptionally thorough in your work. I'm going to start getting my order together for all the necessary components.
> 
> I'm thinking of mounting the rheostat on the base to allow outside control of the spinning effect...
> 
> ...


Huh. I’ve never seen that photo before. I don’t know what that is but a cooling fan blade would kind of make sense.


----------



## RossW (Jan 12, 2000)

BTW, I know you were asking about motors in this thread but in case you're interested here's my custom circuit for all the blinkies on the model (running lights [top/bottom primary hull], strobe lights [rear of secondary hull], and the warp engines).






Running Lights - Strobe Lights - Warp Engine Lights.zip

Warp Engine Discs.zip


----------



## taneal1 (Jul 27, 2014)

RossW said:


> Huh. I’ve never seen that photo before. I don’t know what that is but a cooling fan blade would kind of make sense.


The blade angles are right for moving the air - the blades would not affect the appearance of the lights - and back in the day I imagine the lights would create more heat than the motor. IMO, a cooling fan seems the most likely explanation.

I had a quick look in "The Enterprise NCC 1701 and The Model Maker" by Richard C. Datin, Jr. and daughter, for any clue to the above. Nothing there about this "fan" but I did find the following statement: "[Roddenberry] also considered illuminating the rounded domes on the rear of the nacelle pods, but these were withdrawn due to cost."

A few modelers have illuminated the nacelle trenches with blue lights, but I'm not aware of anyone lighting these "balls." Is there a concensus for the proper color? They appear to be white or light gray. I suppose they could pulsate in phase with the RPM of the Bussard domes and/or flashing lights...

When the Bussard domes spun faster, did the dome lights flash rate increase, also?


----------



## RossW (Jan 12, 2000)

If the blades were added during the previous restoration in the ‘90s then that makes sense. For the 2016 restoration they used LEDs for the lighting and that may not require cooling so much.

The balls are hull colour.

Hard to say about the lights. They had a big control board which may have had a motor speed controller, but the lights were Christmas tree bulbs and burned out and replaced. So, the blinking changed from shot to shot, it to mention if the editor sped up a clip as they often did.


----------



## taneal1 (Jul 27, 2014)

RossW said:


> BTW, I know you were asking about motors in this thread but in case you're interested here's my custom circuit for all the blinkies on the model (running lights [top/bottom primary hull], strobe lights [rear of secondary hull], and the warp engines).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hello there, Ross. Thanks for sending this. I finally got a chance to do a quick look at it. It appears that everything except the fan motors is controlled by that one round PCB. *True?*


----------



## RossW (Jan 12, 2000)

taneal1 said:


> Hello there, Ross. Thanks for sending this. I finally got a chance to do a quick look at it. It appears that everything except the fan motors is controlled by that one round PCB. *True?*


Yes, that‘s right - it controls the warp engine lights and the blinking lights on the saucer and engineering section. There are two round PCBs to go in the front of the warp engines to wire up the LEDs, and then there’s a separate board for the stepper motors.


----------



## taneal1 (Jul 27, 2014)

RossW said:


> BTW, I know you were asking about motors in this thread but in case you're interested here's my custom circuit for all the blinkies on the model (running lights [top/bottom primary hull], strobe lights [rear of secondary hull], and the warp engines).


Ross, some questions for you if you don't mind...

1. You have a total of 10 "blinky" lights on the Warp Engines, and the "real" Enterprise model has only 5. I'm curious why you doubled the number of blinking lights.

2. IIRC, you stated (somewhere) that your Warp Engine lights can be set for different blink rates and brightness. In this version, does that require changing the program code, or is there a 'manual' switch to accomplish this change?

Thanks in advance for any info,

Tom


----------



## RossW (Jan 12, 2000)

taneal1 said:


> 1. You have a total of 10 "blinky" lights on the Warp Engines, and the "real" Enterprise model has only 5. I'm curious why you doubled the number of blinking lights.


Not sure what you mean by that. The PL lighting kit only has 5 blinkies (partly because of the limitations imposed on using LED bulbs and the PIC microcontroller chip on their board) but we don’t know the actual number of C9 Christmas tree lights in the 11’ miniature, let alone how many of those blinked (I asked Gary Kerr about this once and he thought it was more than 5, but exactly how many he couldn’t say). And my board has 15 blinking LEDs.



> 2. IIRC, you stated (somewhere) that your Warp Engine lights can be set for different blink rates and brightness. In this version, does that require changing the program code, or is there a 'manual' switch to accomplish this change?


I think you’re referring to the blinking primary hull (“running lights”) in terms of changing the blink rate with a button (although that may only be on the supplemental board I used to sell which plugged into the PL lighting kit to fix their incorrect blink rates). For the warp engine blinking, you need to change the Arduino code (which is documented) although it already has randomization logic for both the rate and brightness.


----------



## The_Engineer (Dec 8, 2012)

From what I remember (reading articles), when the Smithsonian got the 11 footer, the controller box was lost. I can't remember what type of controls it had. Whether it change the motor speed for the nacelle end caps and/or it could control the speed of the lights flashing. They would also replace the light bulbs when they burned out and the colour of the bulb could change. Pretty sure it was mentioned that the effect would change from episode to episode.


----------



## RossW (Jan 12, 2000)

The_Engineer said:


> From what I remember (reading articles), when the Smithsonian got the 11 footer, the controller box was lost. I can't remember what type of controls it had. Whether it change the motor speed for the nacelle end caps and/or it could control the speed of the lights flashing. They would also replace the light bulbs when they burned out and the colour of the bulb could change. Pretty sure it was mentioned that the effect would change from episode to episode.


I think that’s right, or at least that’s what I remember. When the Smithsonian was doing the 2015/2016 restoration they asked for any photos or info on the control box, but didn’t get much. I would think they could adjust the motor spin from it but if they were typical Christmas bulbs then they just blinked at their own rate. In addition, editors would speed up or slow down a clip (sometimes in the same shot) so blink rates are really hard to nail down.


----------



## taneal1 (Jul 27, 2014)

RossW said:


> ... but we don’t know the actual number of C9 Christmas tree lights in the 11’ miniature, let alone how many of those blinked (I asked Gary Kerr about this once and he thought it was more than 5, but exactly how many he couldn’t say). And my board has 15 blinking LEDs.


The Smithsonian disassembly photos of the 11' show a total of 10 lights under each of the orange domes. I've always assumed this was the final answer. So, you're saying this is not the configuration used in the series?



> For the warp engine blinking, you need to change the Arduino code (which is documented) although it already has randomization logic for both the rate and brightness.


Got it.

Thanks!


----------



## RossW (Jan 12, 2000)

taneal1 said:


> The Smithsonian disassembly photos of the 11' show a total of 10 lights under each of the orange domes. I've always assumed this was the final answer. So, you're saying this is not the configuration used in the series?


You can see nails which were used to attach the strings of Christmas lights, but I’m not aware of a photo which shows 10 bulbs.


----------



## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

Not sure if this will help or not...




__





tos enterprise smithsonian - Google Search






www.google.com




-Jim G.G.


----------



## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

Not sure if the 1st two pics are after modifications. My apologies if so.
-Jim G.G.


----------



## RossW (Jan 12, 2000)

That setup is from the early 90s ”restoration” by Ed Mieracki (sp) - it’s not the original. The bottom photo shows the 11’ model in its arrival at the Smithsonian in the 70s but there are no lights, just nail posts.


----------



## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

I thought as much. 
Sorry about that. 
Other than that here's some great Smithsonian in progress pics....




__





tos enterprise smithsonian - Google Search






www.google.com




-Jim G.G.


----------



## RossW (Jan 12, 2000)

JGG1701 said:


> I thought as much.
> Sorry about that.
> Other than that here's some great Smithsonian in progress pics....
> 
> ...


No worries, Jim! Always good to see pics of the 11’ model!


----------



## taneal1 (Jul 27, 2014)

RossW said:


> You can see nails which were used to attach the strings of Christmas lights, but I’m not aware of a photo which shows 10 bulbs.


Thanks Ross,

Your setup looks absolutely perfect, and I intend to use it myself! So I'm definitely NOT criticizing your choice of 15 flashers. I'm just curious if it required 15 lights due to the simple fact that you are using LEDS as a substitute for incandescent lighting, or that 15 lights was required to optimize the rotating dome effect.

I'm aware of the photo with the 10 nails in a near circular pattern (with one exception...), but no lights present. Given the number and location of the mirror shards there doesn't appear to be surface space available to mount additional lights. With no information to the contrary, I had to presume a maximum total of 10 lights. From my experiments, I could not achieve a symmetrical illumination within the spinning dome with other than 5 or 10 steady amber lights. The most reasonable combination was 5 steady lights, and 5 flashing lights.

Did the 11-footer for certain arrive at the Smithsonian sans Bussard lights?

In the "nail" photo, on the port side of the motor shaft, am I seeing two electrical wires protruding? If so, these presumably attach to the "Christmas Tree" light string, which gives no clue as to the number of lights originally used...

Thanks for any thoughts,

Tom


----------



## RossW (Jan 12, 2000)

No worries, Tom. Everyone tackles this project with different ideas on how it should be done - it’s all good.

I started out using the kit-supplied disc that holds the 10 plastic bulbs (lit from behind) but was not pleased with the effect. And its true that LEDs provide a very different light cone (directional vs incandescent omnidirectional) so I mixed in different sizes of LEDs (including 7805 SMDs) to give the effect more “life”.

As to the nail posts in the Smithsonian pics, I don’t think we should assume one post equals one light tie-off; they used a string of store-bought Christmas tree lights so they probably tied the string to them more so than the bulbs themselves. That’s my thinking, anyway.

AFAIK, the string of lights were missing on arrival, although it’s impossible to know for sure as whomever was there did not document it well. When they did the 2015/2016 restoration they made a great effort to get as much info on the ship’s arrival as possible but I don’t think they got much.


----------



## rmpitzer (Mar 11, 2016)

Hi Ross,

I bought all the components for the engine bussard lights 3 (or maybe 4???) years ago, and successfully assembled one, then put the kit on the back burner. I love your new single board controller and the use of stepper motors. I'm fired up to resume work on the model now. It looks like the bussard disks are the same as they were 3 years ago? The boards I had made say V1 R1 Sep 2017. I just wanted to double check before placing my OSH Park order.

Thanks for this amazing project and for sharing it with us!

-Rich


----------



## RossW (Jan 12, 2000)

rmpitzer said:


> Hi Ross,
> 
> I bought all the components for the engine bussard lights 3 (or maybe 4???) years ago, and successfully assembled one, then put the kit on the back burner. I love your new single board controller and the use of stepper motors. I'm fired up to resume work on the model now. It looks like the bussard disks are the same as they were 3 years ago? The boards I had made say V1 R1 Sep 2017. I just wanted to double check before placing my OSH Park order.
> 
> ...


Yup, those are the latest! I’ve also uploaded this board as a project in OSH Park for everyone to use as they wish.

OSH Park Project

(it says v2_r4 but that’s just from my internal source code tracking; I think I modified the BoM at some point but not the .brd file itself)


----------



## star-art (Jul 5, 2000)

So, all this time, and still no one has tried using a stepper motor with something like a SilentStepStick? While I haven't had a chance to use one of these yet, it's my understanding they can render the motor almost perfectly silent. Buried inside the nacelle, you shouldn't be able to hear anything at all.


----------



## RossW (Jan 12, 2000)

star-art said:


> So, all this time, and still no one has tried using a stepper motor with something like a SilentStepStick? While I haven't had a chance to use one of these yet, it's my understanding they can render the motor almost perfectly silent. Buried inside the nacelle, you shouldn't be able to hear anything at all.


Um, me? I switched to stepper motors using a TMC2208 SilentStepStick a few years back.

TOS E Custom Stepper Motor Circuit


----------



## star-art (Jul 5, 2000)

Aha! OK, I looked through this thread and didn't see mention of that. Very glad to see someone got it to work!


----------



## rmpitzer (Mar 11, 2016)

Hi Ross,

I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask this, if there is a better place, please let me know! I am in the process of building your running light - strobe light - warp engine light rectangular board, and I see on the bottom of the board there is a D1 component location, but I don't see it listed on the excel sheet what D1 is. Is it by any chance the same DIODE-SCHOTTKY that is listed as D1 on the stepper motor board and if not, do you know what part I need? Also, speaking of the DIODE-SCHOTTKY, digikey is out of the MBRA130LT3GOSCT-ND‎, do you know if there is a substitute part that will work?

Thanks so much for all your help on this!

-Rich
[email protected]


----------



## RossW (Jan 12, 2000)

rmpitzer said:


> Hi Ross,
> 
> I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask this, if there is a better place, please let me know! I am in the process of building your running light - strobe light - warp engine light rectangular board, and I see on the bottom of the board there is a D1 component location, but I don't see it listed on the excel sheet what D1 is. Is it by any chance the same DIODE-SCHOTTKY that is listed as D1 on the stepper motor board and if not, do you know what part I need? Also, speaking of the DIODE-SCHOTTKY, digikey is out of the MBRA130LT3GOSCT-ND‎, do you know if there is a substitute part that will work?
> 
> ...


Yes, the D1 is the same Schottky diode as on the other board - I musta added it but forgot to update the BoM.

From digikey.com they say this one should be a direct replacement - just make sure it can handle at least 1A/ 30V and is the same physical size:

*STPS1L30A*


----------



## rmpitzer (Mar 11, 2016)

RossW said:


> Yes, the D1 is the same Schottky diode as on the other board - I musta added it but forgot to update the BoM.
> 
> From digikey.com they say this one should be a direct replacement - just make sure it can handle at least 1A/ 30V and is the same physical size:
> 
> *STPS1L30A*


Fantastic, thanks! One last question (I think, LOL). Can I use the same FTDI breakout board (DEV-09716 from Sparkfun) from your older SE66 warp lighting board for this newer one to connect the USB for programming?

Thanks again!
-Rich


----------



## RossW (Jan 12, 2000)

rmpitzer said:


> Fantastic, thanks! One last question (I think, LOL). Can I use the same FTDI breakout board (DEV-09716 from Sparkfun) from your older SE66 warp lighting board for this newer one to connect the USB for programming?
> 
> Thanks again!
> -Rich


If you mean this:










then yes. But, you need to follow the instructions on setting up a Pololu A-Star 328PB Micro board in the Arduino IDE as per their instructions


----------



## rmpitzer (Mar 11, 2016)

Here is my progress so far....


----------



## RossW (Jan 12, 2000)

Wow! Those look very professional!

make sure you set the current limiter on the SilentStepStick properly. I did my testing using one stepper motor ( using my voltmeter to read the millivolts while carefully adjusting the onboard pot) and then doubled that when I hooked up both motors.

Setting Max Current on SilentStepStick


----------



## rmpitzer (Mar 11, 2016)

Thanks!

I received the Schottky diodes for the boards and am about to mount them. I just wanted to double check before putting any power to the boards, it looks like I can supply it with either a 5 volt or 12 volt power supply, depending which input I wire to.... correct?

-Rich


----------



## RossW (Jan 12, 2000)

rmpitzer said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I received the Schottky diodes for the boards and am about to mount them. I just wanted to double check before putting any power to the boards, it looks like I can supply it with either a 5 volt or 12 volt power supply, depending which input I wire to.... correct?
> 
> -Rich


No, if there is a 5V & 12V input then it needs both. That’s why I have a 5V regulator set up on another board - you would use a 12V regulated power supply and it passes that on but also provides a regulated 5V.


----------



## rmpitzer (Mar 11, 2016)

OK, so for the lighting board that I built, I will need both a 5V and 12v power supply to power the board? And I tie both of the negative terminals together into the GND on the board?


----------



## RossW (Jan 12, 2000)

rmpitzer said:


> OK, so for the lighting board that I built, I will need both a 5V and 12v power supply to power the board? And I tie both of the negative terminals together into the GND on the board?


Correct. This is the part I use for a 5V regulator:

D24V22F5

And yes, all negative leads are tied together.


----------



## rmpitzer (Mar 11, 2016)

Well, I powered up the boards, they didn't explode.  I managed to program the lighting board and it seems to be working (I haven't attached lights yet, but the multi-meter shows life at the terminals). I'm having trouble with the motor board though, when I verify the sketch I get an error message saying "TimerOne.h: No such file or directory." Looking at the code I see this....

#include <AccelStepper.h> // GitHub - waspinator/AccelStepper: Fork of AccelStepper
#include <ClickEncoder.h> // GitHub - 0xPIT/encoder: Atmel AVR C++ RotaryEncoder Implementation
#include <TimerOne.h> // GitHub - waspinator/AccelStepper: Fork of AccelStepper

The AccelStepper.h and TimerOne.h both have the same URL after them, is that intentional, or do I find the TimerOne somewhere else? Doing a Google search it appears there may be a few different ones.

Thanks yet again!
-Rich


----------



## RossW (Jan 12, 2000)

rmpitzer said:


> Well, I powered up the boards, they didn't explode.  I managed to program the lighting board and it seems to be working (I haven't attached lights yet, but the multi-meter shows life at the terminals). I'm having trouble with the motor board though, when I verify the sketch I get an error message saying "TimerOne.h: No such file or directory." Looking at the code I see this....
> 
> #include <AccelStepper.h> // GitHub - waspinator/AccelStepper: Fork of AccelStepper
> #include <ClickEncoder.h> // GitHub - 0xPIT/encoder: Atmel AVR C++ RotaryEncoder Implementation
> ...


Good catch! That's a copy-paste error. The TimerOne library I'm using is here:

TimerOne

The above line should be updated to:


```
#include <TimerOne.h>       // https://github.com/PaulStoffregen/TimerOne
```
Note that I made a change to the TimerOhe.h file in two places as follows:


```
//****************************
    //  Run Control
    //**************************** 
    void start() __attribute__((always_inline)) {
    TCCR1B = 0;
    //TCNT1 = 0;        // TODO: does this cause an undesired interrupt?
    TCNT1 = 1;
    resume();
    }
```
This was necessary to make the whole thing work. I've uploaded my "TimerOne" library folder into my Google Drive under the "Arduino Code\Libraries" folder. You can see my change by comparing "TimerOne_ORIG.h" (downloaded from GitHub) and the my updated one "TimerOne.h"


----------



## rmpitzer (Mar 11, 2016)

Gosh, this is fantastic, thanks so much! Almost everything is working great! The stepper motor (the ones you used are no longer available, I am using ones I had kicking around here) is spinning nicely and so quiet you barely can hear it. The nacelle lights are working very nice. But I can't get the running and strobe lights to do anything. I assumed I connect the positive (longer) led lead to the terminal on the board, and run the negative lead to the common ground? And I also assume I use a resistor with the LED for 12v power? Perhaps my assumptions aren't correct? 

I have a really cheap multimeter and it's not responsive enough to get a reading on those terminals.


----------



## RossW (Jan 12, 2000)

rmpitzer said:


> Gosh, this is fantastic, thanks so much! Almost everything is working great! The stepper motor (the ones you used are no longer available, I am using ones I had kicking around here) is spinning nicely and so quiet you barely can hear it. The nacelle lights are working very nice. But I can't get the running and strobe lights to do anything. I assumed I connect the positive (longer) led lead to the terminal on the board, and run the negative lead to the common ground? And I also assume I use a resistor with the LED for 12v power? Perhaps my assumptions aren't correct?
> 
> I have a really cheap multimeter and it's not responsive enough to get a reading on those terminals.


No, the running lights and strobe outputs are -ve and you need to connect the +ve leads from the LEDs to either +5V or +12V, whichever you have the appropriate resistors for.

Glad you got the steppers working! That took me forever to work out. Please post a vid when you get it all working.


----------



## rmpitzer (Mar 11, 2016)

That was it! Everything is working!! OMG, I can't imagine how much work it must have been for you to design this, but I am immensely grateful that you are sharing your information to us!

Yup, once it looks a little prettier I'll post a video so you can see.

Thanks!
-Rich


----------



## RossW (Jan 12, 2000)

rmpitzer said:


> That was it! Everything is working!! OMG, I can't imagine how much work it must have been for you to design this, but I am immensely grateful that you are sharing your information to us!
> 
> Yup, once it looks a little prettier I'll post a video so you can see.
> 
> ...


Excellent! And congrats - these are the two most complicated boards I’ve ever designed, using non-standard Arduinos, and you’ve done it!

Looking forward to see the vids!


----------



## rmpitzer (Mar 11, 2016)

Thanks again! This is by far the best looking lighting/motor solution I've seen for the 1/350 TOS Enterprise and I couldn't have done it without your information and help along the way! I haven't made it look a little prettier yet, but here's a couple videos so you can see the boards in action.
The lighting board in action
The stepper motor board in action

-Rich


----------



## RossW (Jan 12, 2000)

rmpitzer said:


> Thanks again! This is by far the best looking lighting/motor solution I've seen for the 1/350 TOS Enterprise and I couldn't have done it without your information and help along the way! I haven't made it look a little prettier yet, but here's a couple videos so you can see the boards in action.
> The lighting board in action
> The stepper motor board in action
> 
> -Rich


Wow! That looks fantastic, Rich! And your steppers are whisper quiet.


----------



## rmpitzer (Mar 11, 2016)

RossW said:


> Wow! That looks fantastic, Rich! And your steppers are whisper quiet.


I have a couple different stripper motors. I don’t know much about them, I bought them off eBay years ago and didn’t save any specs. This one has a little bit of a clicking sound that you can hear in the video, it’s not bad but there. The other motors I have are very quiet but the gear ratio must be higher, they spin much slower.


----------



## RossW (Jan 12, 2000)

rmpitzer said:


> I have a couple different stripper motors. I don’t know much about them, I bought them off eBay years ago and didn’t save any specs. This one has a little bit of a clicking sound that you can hear in the video, it’s not bad but there. The other motors I have are very quiet but the gear ratio must be higher, they spin much slower.



The clicking sound might be that your max current setting is too low. You can’t adjust that with the motors attached but try bumping up the setting by 5mV at a time.
For the other steppers, can you not use my board to adjust the speed? I’ve found that most people have their spinners going too fast - it should be around 60rpm (Your vid looks about right)


----------



## rmpitzer (Mar 11, 2016)

RossW said:


> The clicking sound might be that your max current setting is too low. You can’t adjust that with the motors attached but try bumping up the setting by 5mV at a time.
> For the other steppers, can you not use my board to adjust the speed? I’ve found that most people have their spinners going too fast - it should be around 60rpm (Your vid looks about right)


I’ll give both items a try. I hadn’t tried speeding up the slower motor yet. I set the board to 220mV, like yours was set in your video, just as a starting point, then tried both motors. 

More updates to come!


----------



## RossW (Jan 12, 2000)

rmpitzer said:


> I’ll give both items a try. I hadn’t tried speeding up the slower motor yet. I set the board to 220mV, like yours was set in your video, just as a starting point, then tried both motors.
> 
> More updates to come!


Without the specs you’re running blind, but try increasing little by little to see if that click disappears.

To adjust the speed, you push down and hold the rotary encoder knob for 5 sec, and when you release the A-Star onboard LED will flash which tells you it’s accepting speed adjust by turning the knob. Once you get the speed you like, just let it go after a few seconds it’ll save the new speed to EEPROM which it reads on next startup.


----------



## rmpitzer (Mar 11, 2016)

I will be the first to admit I don't know much about all this stuff. I'm having a little trouble using your motor specs and the website you linked to calculate the mV to use, and how you came up with 220. I believe the motor I have in the video is this one... DC 5V 2-Phase 4-Wire Mini 15MM Full Metal Gearbox Stepper Motor 28MM long shaft | eBay and the specs listed are...
Phase resistance: 6.5 ohms
Current: @6v short circuit current 0.85A
Motor step angle: 18 degrees
Reduction ratio: 1:45.25


----------



## RossW (Jan 12, 2000)

rmpitzer said:


> I will be the first to admit I don't know much about all this stuff. I'm having a little trouble using your motor specs and the website you linked to calculate the mV to use, and how you came up with 220. I believe the motor I have in the video is this one... DC 5V 2-Phase 4-Wire Mini 15MM Full Metal Gearbox Stepper Motor 28MM long shaft | eBay and the specs listed are...
> Phase resistance: 6.5 ohms
> Current: @6v short circuit current 0.85A
> Motor step angle: 18 degrees
> Reduction ratio: 1:45.25


You need to refer to the SilentStepStick documents in my Google Drive folder to convert to mV. I did the calculation for one motor and then doubled it for using two, but needed to increase it a bit to eliminate the clicking.


----------



## RossW (Jan 12, 2000)

The applicable section in the TMC2208 FAQ is this:



> *How to set the stepper motor current?*
> The best way to set the motor current on TMC2xxx SilentStepSticks with a potentiometer is by measuring the voltage on the Vref pin (0…2.5V) and adjusting the voltage with the potentiometer. The maximum settable motor current is 1.77A RMS (0.11 Ohm sense resistors), but the TMC21xx/TMC2208 SilentStepSticks can only be used up to 1.2A RMS.
> Irms = (Vref * 1.77A) / 2.5V = Vref * 0.71
> Vref = (Irms * 2.5V) / 1.77A = Irms * 1.41 = Imax
> ...


I found this .... confusing. The calculator doesn't work, and if you try and follow the formulas they go in a bit of a loop. Here's what I did:

Take your max/short circuit current and half it (Me: 0.45A/2 = *0.22A*; you: 0.85A/2 = *0.42A*)
Plug that into the formula to get Irms (me: Irms = 0.22/1.41 = *0.16A*; you: Irms = 0.42/1.41 = *0.30A*)
Finally, plug that into the Vref formula to get what you need to set via the pin and your multimeter (Me: Vref = 0.16*1.41 = *0.22V*; you: Vref = 0.3*1.41 = *0.42V*)
Note that you can really skip the above and just convert your 1/2 max current to Vref (Me: 0.22A -> 0.22V = *220mV*; you: 0.42A -> 0.42V = *420mV*). I don't know why they make it so complicated.

As mentioned in their FAQ, increase the Vref by 0.1A (or 0.1V = 100mV) if steps are missed (that could be the clicking). I would adjust it in smaller increments to be safe, but whatever you do don't go above your max current (0.85A -> 850mV).

Remember, don't adjust the pot on the SilentStepStick with the motors attached to the board. Trust me 

Hope this helps.


----------



## rmpitzer (Mar 11, 2016)

Thanks so much for that info, it's most helpful! I've played around with tweaking both motors....the best results of each are linked below. Both are VERY quiet. Next step, mock it up in the nacelle and see how it looks!


----------



## RossW (Jan 12, 2000)

rmpitzer said:


> Thanks so much for that info, it's most helpful! I've played around with tweaking both motors....the best results of each are linked below. Both are VERY quiet. Next step, mock it up in the nacelle and see how it looks!


Incredible! I’m so pleased to see you’ve got it working so well. The gearbox ratio in Test #2 might be too high and as such is just a wee bit slower than you’d want, but I think the motors in Test #1 are perfect - no more clicking.


----------



## rmpitzer (Mar 11, 2016)

Hi Ross,

I got to thinking… How to possibly run all the needed wires up into the nacelles? (11 wires, plus 2 more if I decide to light the chiller grilles) I ordered some 30awg wire wrap wire, and it looks like that bundle will fit in the nacelle struts. That of course got me thinking about where to mount the boards. I’m thinking I may order your round blinkies board so it fits behind the deflector dish. I’m curious where you plan to mount the stepper motor control board? (and wonder if there is a reason for its shape?)

I‘m also thinking about ordering the stuff to make the IR board, but have a couple questions about that…

where does the 5 volt regulator board mount? Looks like it’s on top of the mini switch board?
I see a master and slave sketch, not sure what those are?
Where were you thinking of mounting this?
I also really like the power distribution board, and will likely order that as well.

As always, thanks so much for your help on all this!
-Rich


----------



## RossW (Jan 12, 2000)

rmpitzer said:


> Hi Ross,
> 
> I got to thinking… How to possibly run all the needed wires up into the nacelles? (11 wires, plus 2 more if I decide to light the chiller grilles) I ordered some 30awg wire wrap wire, and it looks like that bundle will fit in the nacelle struts. That of course got me thinking about where to mount the boards. I’m thinking I may order your round blinkies board so it fits behind the deflector dish. I’m curious where you plan to mount the stepper motor control board? (and wonder if there is a reason for its shape?)


Yeah, the reason I moved the blinkies board to behind the nav deflector dish is to reduce the wiring up my support post. I figured I probably wouldn’t be re-programming that board once I was happy with it, whereas I want to keep the others in the base for accessibility.

My base is a custom one I (roughly) designed and then was created and fabricated by a 3D artist named Steven Burns - he’s on FB. The boards were drawn so they could fit on the boomerang-shaped base, stacked on top if need be. Note that I’ve yet to finish my own kit so the final placement of the boards is TBD.


























This last pic shows where the IR receiver diode goes.



> I‘m also thinking about ordering the stuff to make the IR board, but have a couple questions about that…
> 
> where does the 5 volt regulator board mount? Looks like it’s on top of the mini switch board?
> I see a master and slave sketch, not sure what those are?
> ...


Yes, the 5V board from Pololu plugs into the mini switch board and sits above the A-Star board.










The Master/Slave thing is for future use - you don’t need to wire it.

The above goes into my base but attached to the side.

EDIT: Here’s a shot of the power/IR controller board. The 5V regulator bit isn’t soldered to my PCB, but rather it plugs into a tall 5-pin header. This is so that (a) it sits above the mini push button power switch underneath, and (2) gives access to the parts if needed.


----------



## rmpitzer (Mar 11, 2016)

Excellent, thanks! This is all very helpful!

-Rich


----------



## garyseven (12 mo ago)

I will be ordering the PL light kit shortly. Late to the game. Will probably use the included motors. My question is it possible to install a resistor or some other way to slow them down some? They just seem too fast. That might also help with the noise.


----------

