# New Track - Speak Up and Be Heard



## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

The unfortunate thing (or maybe not) about this or any other slot car discussion forum in which I have participated, is that there is a very small group of people who do nearly all the posting. If someone interested in producing anything slot related wanted to go out and seek input, these forums should be the perfect place to go. Unfortunately, with so few posters, no one could possibly make major business decisions based on so little input.
For example, I was reading one of the threads and some guys were saying how much they would like certain pieces of track - big banked curves, large curves, four lane sections, long straights, etc. But how could anyone decide to invest in producing track based on one, two or half a dozen requests?
I have always hoped that I would be able to get back to making more track. But the problem, if money was not an issue, has always been - "What track pieces not now available would be most in demand?". I have my list of what I would do and I'm sure you have yours as well.
The first hurdle would, of course, be which track system the new pieces would be designed to compliment. For HO, it really comes down to Tomy or Tyco/Mattel. Lifelike is not a serious contender due to it's lack of variety. All others are no longer in production or have a very small market share.
I personally eliminate Tomy because they are still apparently willing to produce new track pieces, as evidenced by their introduction of the 18" curve. This has made our mold, and the work we put into it, obsolete. Can't and won't be put in that position again.
So that leaves Tyco/Mattel. I think we can pretty much assume that Mattel isn't going to be doing anything that might actually add value to the slot car line it got from Tyco. They will continue to muddle along making some novelty sets (Battle Slam anyone?) or little useless figure 8s that will bore kids in no time. No chance on them actually doing something useful and intelligent.
So if you want to make new track pieces and do not want to design a new track system (and watch your investment go down the drain), Tyco/Mattel compatible, with any improvements you can make, is the way you have to go. Tomy users will not like that, nor will those clamoring for a four lane track, but it is the only option out there for a track maker that I see as having a reasonable chance of some success in the overall marketplace.
So, back to my original point. How do you go about gathering input on what would sell? And not just sell one of something, you need to sell a lot. After all, that is the driving factor for manufacturing. My list would be as follows:

3 1/2" terminal/jumper track with undertrack connections
- this allows for 7" (2 x 3.5), 9.5" (6 + 3.5) and 10.5" (3 x 3.5) straights 
18" 1/8 curve
21" 1/8 curve
21" or 24" straight
3" intersection
24" 1/12 curve (30 degrees)
21" 1/12 curve
18" 1/12 curve
15" 1/12 curve
12" 1/12 curve

Deciding to produce 30 degree turns would be an expensive gamble. Would they sell? How many different sizes would you need to have when they are first introduced? Should you go with 1/16th curves instead so they mesh with the 1/8 curves? Should banked curves come in somewhere? If so, just how many would any one person buy? What is the largest curve really necessary? Is there a really good piece I'm leaving out?
These are the questions I ask. If you ever want to see real innovation and investment in this hobby, you have got to let yourself be heard. Otherwise, no one is going to reach into their wallet. Above all else, whether it's track or bodies or chassis or parts, it is still a business to the guy laying out the money.
Ask yourself - would I lay out $10k, $20k, $50k or more for something 6 people requested? Is the hobby worth my investment?

Thanks...Joe


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## TGtycopro (Jun 1, 2006)

HO comprises what, around 20% of the Slot hobby
3% goes to 1/24 and another 3 or 4 to 1/43.

If i were thinking of investing 30-50,000.00 in TheSlot carhobby................I think i'd be looking at the numbers..........Where are they AND where are they Headed!!

HO seems to have become MORE the collectors scale with 1/32 becoming the Racers Scale.

I see HO Slots going after this COLLECTOR market...Its ALREADY begun with new releases specifically designed for the collector.

1/32 is after the collector Also, but NOT with ALOT of Serious Collector marketing...at least Not yet.....Oh theres some as there always is in ANY hobby.

Were it me, I would take a serious look at the newer trend of Scenicing tracks......What is needed by slot enthusiasts who are building these Scenic'd tracks.

Perhaps what is needed is SMART TRACK......Track that does somethingto enhance the realism of the home course.

That could be perhaps a Pit Track, one that times fuels and perhaps controls voltage Based on weight of the fuel and Condition of the tires ( # of laps without pitting etc.)

Another might be a Smart track that acts as a TRACK CALL.............It detects an OFF and cuts power to all tracks until reset.

These are just a couple idea's off the top of my head...........Can they be made?

Oh yea........they not only CAN be made, they are overdue to be made......in most cases track is the same as it was in 1960's (digital is an exception)
Analog can take advantage of new technology..........you just need to decide whats needed, gather the resources and JUST do it!! (oversimplification perhaps but you know what I mean


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Joe,

As I said before, the HO world should be thankful for people like you that stepped forward and tried to make a difference. Unfortunately, your post as well as your previous mentioning of tons of track left tells me you have learned a rather expensive lesson...the boards ain't where it's at in this hobby. Actually, it was a double whammy as you had vendors selling your product at shows, shows who's customers are made up mostly of..... people from the boards.

Without the investment of mainstream media, there is really only one place to start...the tracks. Racing sells racing stuff. *Period. *

Sadly, what the 'net - coupled with unscrupulous dealer networks - has done is either push brick-n-mortar stores out, or has led them to give up on HO. So, where do you go to market your product? In my opinion, it's gonna take a lot of effort at this point. Again, the JL/AW bug comes up. I give it one, maybe two more releases, before something big happens. Motor City Toys selling the new releases publicly at almost dealer cost (within cents) did not help one bit, I hate to say. That thread is still finding it's way to shop owners, most of whom then adamantly refuse to purchase future AW products. *Without an affordable entry-level lineup of cars, track will be useless.* Those of you who use the boards as their monitor of the health of the HO industry have _no idea_ how seriously this stuff is impacting the hobby, _because they only see the happy faces here on the boards_.

I don't think there's gonna be an easy answer for you, Joe. Until people can learn to step back, cast their own interests aside for a moment, and look at the big picture there will be little growth of this great hobby.


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## Scafremon (Dec 11, 2006)

Great thread!!!!!!!

I want to (and am working on) adding my 2 cents to this discussion.


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

Gotta go with the Gator (Gene) on this one. HO needs a huge transfusion. 

I will add that somehow fresh blood must be injected before it's too late. Perhaps it's already over?!

Like all savvy marketers you gotta hook the kids. What do you want to eat? Eight gazillion kids shout, "McDonalds!" What should we play? The same eight gazillion kids scream, "Xbox!"

Last week a couple of us Weds nite chat regulars were gabbing on Friday. A 15yr old kid comes on and says, "Whats a slot car?" I was flabbergasted!

Need I say more?

Perhaps some techno dude will hook a playstation game-troller to a track and bring some of these kids from the darkside and back into to the 3-D world.

A little off topic Joe, I do apologize, but I kinda see where Gene is coming from and had to put my own spin on it.

Unless they get a happy meal or some other form of instant gratification the majority of kids arent gonna play anymore. 

Sure you can sell a finite amount of track to us grizzled veterans, but the marketing plum and perhaps the future of the hobby is in fresh blood. Unfortunately for you multiple radii curves and your other cool track pieces that appeal to the veteran arent considered a happy meal by the uninitiated, potential tabletop racing masses who wouldnt know a radius from a radish; but if their kids were screaming for a radius they'd darn well run out and buy two just to shuttem up.

Sad as it may seem, a race set based on the nefarious and unwholesome video game Grand Theft Auto would undoubtedly be a best seller.


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## Ligier Runner (Nov 29, 2004)

Interesting isn't it? I could be completely washed up here but it seems the bell has been tolling for this hobby. And tolling. And tolling. What I'm getting at is the hobby never seems to die out but it never seems to get any closer to that light at the end of the tunnel. 

As for new blood, there are so many things competing for the attention of kids (and their parents dollars) nowadays that real life interactive toys seem to take a back seat. Sports are huge. Video games are huge. Surfing the net and wasting countless hours on MySpace. Unless you were brought into the hobby by someone else who actively participated in said hobby, the chances of you discovering it all on your own are slim. This could be said for ANY hobby like slot cars, model building, trains, radio control cars/planes/boats, etc. AND, in general, try to think of stores that sell real slot cars and sets to get them into the hobby. Not selling toys but selling the hobby. Not many if any.

I believe this is the reason slot car makers resorted to marketing toy tracks and using gimmicks to sell their product. I believe they were smart enough to realize that to keep their business alive, they needed to attract new blood. Get 'em hooked and they'll spend more money on more expensive products. 

I also think there is a bit of embarrassment involved with some people who would like to do what we do but they're afraid their friends will look down on them for playing with toys. A grown up hobby is collecting stamps or coins not playing with little cars.

Well, forgive me while I refuse to grow up. :wave:


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## TGtycopro (Jun 1, 2006)

Growing OLD is mandatory..................
Growing UP is optional............... 

The Slot hobby is not dying, in fact it is still in a growth cycle............BUT its shifted as its Hobbyists average age and income have shifted.
1/32 is King of the course at the moment..............BY FAR!!

Thats where i'd be putting my money......Sorry to you HO guys, I truly am but reality is the Squeeky wheel gets the grease and the HOT items get the investors!!!

Of course there are those investors who are stubborn and refuse to change with the market............Hence the term a fool and his money are soon..............you get the picture!!


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## noddaz (Aug 6, 1999)

*Joe, think bigger...*

Joe, I think that you are barking up the wrong tree.
You want to make track?
Don't make track sections for existing track.
Make a track system. Something along the lines of MaxTrax. (A 36" straight retails for $63 according to their site)
Make modern "professional" grade track.

Scott


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## *MAYHEM* (May 4, 2007)

I'd love to see 18", 21" and 24" flat and banked turns.

If you build it they will come.


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## Scafremon (Dec 11, 2006)

An infusion of kids into the hobby would be great, but I don't see it happening, and I surely don't see the manufacturing of a specialty piece of track having any impact on the growth of the hobby.

If a kid does want to get into the hobby, then Racemasters has the box that will get them all set-up. Only a few of these kids will then want to take the track to the next level, and purchase specialty pieces. Most will get bored with it like they do everything else, and move on. It's the parent that you have to get interested in the hobby now, so that the parent is still willing to allocate the space required in the house for the hobby. Otherwise, they will be happy to see the track go into the box, and reclaim the floor space it was taking up.

(got to head to work - will finish later).


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## wm_brant (Nov 21, 2004)

I'm getting depressed just reading the other responses. As the character 'Oddball' in the movie 'Kelly's Heros' said: "Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?" I love that movie, especially as an ex-Army tank crewman. Woof! Woof!

HO's strengths are:
1. HO is a racing scale. There is probably more organized HO racing going on than in all the other scales combined. Much of the racing takes places in people's houses on plastic sectional track, as a good-sized HO track can fit into just about anyone's house. Sure, people would like a routed track, but they're expensive.
2. It appears that Racemasters/AFX/Tomy/whatever are reinvesting significantly in their product. New cars and a higher level of detail, (and new cars more often), new track pieces (18" curve), new sets (the Long Beach Grand Prix is out now), upgraded SG+ chassis. They are moving new product out the door. They're putting their money where their mouth is. Keep in mind that their product line can be traced back to the original Aurora product line. Other than Tyco (I can't get the M-word out), nobody else -- in any scale -- has made it this long.
3. HO has a significant number of small businesses supporting it. 

While 1/32 scale is bigger and flashier, it's also takes up a lot of space in a home, and costs a lot. Cars keep getting more and more expensive. While 1/32 scale will always be around, I think it's bubble might be about to burst because of today's economy. It's too large for the average home, and too expensive to justify when things get tight.

So, Joe, where does that leave you? 

Mattel is unlikely to come up with new turn radii. So, that's an option. However, Mattel is not really selling any new non-toy slot tracks, so that leaves that market cloudy, and may explain why your Tyco curves did not sell well.

Lifelike certainly could use some new turn radii. Since their sets are sold everywhere, that's a big market. However, if people don't hear about your product, or can't justify your price, people might either just dump their LL sets and move to Tomy, or drop out of the hobby (which happens all the time in all hobbies, including slot cars)

AFX/Racemasters is THE HO track right now. Last I heard, Auto World is planning to sell either a clone of the Tomy track, or resell Tomy track, which makes Tomy an even more dominant track choice.

Want some suggestions?
1. (Blushing) Track borders. They could fit Tomy, Tyco, Lifelike, etc. Cheaper and simpler to make than powered track sections. Sell or provide shims to raise the height of the border so it fits flush with other makes. Racemasters has already said they were not interested in making borders.
2. 15" straights. Everyone complains about the quality of the Tomy pieces, but there is no alternative. It *could* be an opportunity *IF* you could find a way to sell them in a volume that would allow you to be competitive in price to Tomy (Talk to Auto World, perhaps?). Of course, the risk is that Tomy fixes their quality problems... Perhaps you could engineer them to have features that Tomy does not have -- like having an easy connection to power jumpers, and a better quality of steel, which would not corrode.
3. Make turn pieces for LifeLike. Again, you might want give them a call. If you do the design, and know someone who could make it at a competitive price, they might just buy the designs from you, or use you as a subcontractor.

-- Bill


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## *MAYHEM* (May 4, 2007)

noddaz said:


> Joe, I think that you are barking up the wrong tree.
> You want to make track?
> Don't make track sections for existing track.
> Make a track system. Something along the lines of MaxTrax. (A 36" straight retails for $63 according to their site)
> ...


This logic sorta grates on me. I already have a large layout built from Tomy track that I've invested a ton of time and money on. My only complaint wit it is I'd like to have some bigger turns. Now when someone comes along that is willing to try and give me what I want, you tell him he'd be better off building a whole new expensive track system to compete with a half dozen other people making them.

Understand, most people getting into HO are buying a set from the local hobby store and gradually adding to it. That is the backbone of HO. You want to say, "Screw them. If they want a decent layout they can spend $2-4000 like everyone else." That is why this hobby never really takes off. The average basement racer isn't willing to commit to that kind of money and no one is offering him anything better that he can add to what he has.

Offer some better track pieces for existing systems, pieces that will make layouts similar to those $3000 systems and put them in the hobby shops that people go to to get started and you will sell it. You'll also bring more people into the hobby, because now it can be reasonable hobby instead of just a toy without exorbitant cash outlay to get there.


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## TGtycopro (Jun 1, 2006)

> There is probably more organized HO racing going on than in all the other scales combined.


Bill, i'm going to have to disagree with you on this point.........While organized HO racing is doing OK in the USA, the USA is a very small part of The world.

1/32 is 5-6 times larger as a RACERS Market and 1/32 Organized racing is International.

1/32 is right now in its Boom in the USA and while the economy has shifted, Most slot racers will give up a case of Beer before buying their next slot purchase IMHO  

Ive nothing against HO, I OWN HO (probobly not near the amount you or any other serious racer/collector has) And I'd love to see ya'll get everything you want in your preffered scale.........................At the same time, I do not want to see another forum member Invest 50 grand and with ALOT of luck, MAYBE break even in 10-12 years............He'd do better buying vacation property or land as an Investment(which by the way its a buyers market at the moment  ) It would have a far better chance of a decent return.

The other thing is as you mentioned...a time when we are experiencing a turn in the economy and rising interest rates is NOT the time to go out on a limb with your venture capital...............Solid Investments that are proven to be successful during economic Hiccups would be a better bet.......Stash your cash in a lucritive/safe investment & ride out this Hiccup........at least until after the election...............maybe you can come back in 1 year with 80 grand and perhaps look hard at the Slot market and WHO survived the trying times.............Watch what TYCO & TOMY do.............you are going to see Inventories being drastically cut over the next 2 quarters and R&D dollars being allocated to marketing to keep from losing another 27 - 50 million dollars per year like happened in the late 90's

I'm not going out of my way to be NEGATIVE...............
I AM going out of my to be REALISTIC..........for the sake of the one who ASKED for Input, the same One who has tried to do positive things FOR this hobby, anything else but what I feel to be truth would be unacceptable and potentially damaging to the hobby in the long term!!

If you dont agree with this assessment, fine....you are entitled to your opinion.......

But do get some facts straight.. ( in other words, dont take my word or anybody elses word...Look it up for yourself).....

look at the overall dollars spent in this hobby worldwide....... and then look to see where those dollars are going.
I agree a new track offering in HO will sell................BUT.....will it sell enough........to make an overall profit?

Can you take a 50,000.00 investment, turn it Into *Inventory* and then Turn that Inventory over 2.5 times or more (called ROI or return on Investment) in the next 12 months 

These are the questions that need answering, and that is called RISK ASSESSMENT!!!!!!
Any new venture has risks.............some are higher than others. Based on the market and Economic conditions it would take balls of steel to invest 50 grand in HO track pieces at this time....... Of course the labor pool is there for any new start up business.......


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## noddaz (Aug 6, 1999)

*Well now....*



*MAYHEM* said:


> This logic sorta grates on me. I already have a large layout built from Tomy track that I've invested a ton of time and money on. My only complaint wit it is I'd like to have some bigger turns. Now when someone comes along that is willing to try and give me what I want, you tell him he'd be better off building a whole new expensive track system to compete with a half dozen other people making them..


I am sorry that my opinions grate on you. But look at the facts.
Joe came out with 18" Tomy compatible turns. That was a great thing.
Probably cost him a bundle. Now Tomy has released their own 18" turns.
I am sure Joe has lots of incentive to do something like that again.




*MAYHEM* said:


> Understand, most people getting into HO are buying a set from the local hobby store and gradually adding to it. That is the backbone of HO. You want to say, "Screw them. If they want a decent layout they can spend $2-4000 like everyone else." That is why this hobby never really takes off. The average basement racer isn't willing to commit to that kind of money and no one is offering him anything better that he can add to what he has...


"Screw them." Funny, I didn't see that in my post anywhere. In fact I agree with _most _of this paragraph. My home track is Tomy. And I have no complaints about it. But it is what it is. I have raced on Wizz tracks, MaxTrax, Brystal tracks and other high end race tracks. And I like them! I hope one day to upgrade to one.



*MAYHEM* said:


> Offer some better track pieces for existing systems, pieces that will make layouts similar to those $3000 systems and put them in the hobby shops that people go to to get started and you will sell it. You'll also bring more people into the hobby, because now it can be reasonable hobby instead of just a toy without exorbitant cash outlay to get there.


And this sounds like a great idea.
Except Tomy copied Joe's 18" turn. And I have heard (Joe, correct me if I am wrong...) that the Mattel/Tyco pieces are not selling as well as was hoped...

Well now. After work tonight I have to get ready to go racing this weekend...

Scott


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## f1nutz (Mar 26, 2007)

Hi Joe
Just happened to purchase several pairs of your 18" Tomy curves while visiting Buffalo the other weekend. I have never seen them up here in Canada and was surprised to find them in a hobby shop as I have only ever seen them for sale on line. I have to say they are very well made and they impressed me. It's unfortunate that racemasters have started making the same part in competition with you and I feel this probably would not have happened had you not got the ball rolling. I certainly hope you can continue to make more various pieces for the Tomy system as I believe it is the most popular and widespread system of track. 
I think you may be making a mistake by concentrating on Tyco track as I just don't think that many people use it. It's a shame you can't get a deal with racemasters and work together to release more pieces.
I think if you want a return on your money releasing more car bodies may be the way to go. Much as I would like to see more track.
Thanks for doing the track you have done.
Bill


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## f1nutz (Mar 26, 2007)

To answer your track question more specifically I personally have all the track that I need right now. My layout has been permanant for about 10 years now. The only pieces I would think about buying are the Tomy 18" and 21" 1/8th curves. These I would rework my existing track for. As far as other people I know who may build a track in the future the jumper tracks might come in useful. If you are thinking of making a longer straight I'd suggest going longer and making say a 30,36 or 48 inch straight. 21" and 24" aren't really going to eliminate many track joints so I don't see a great advantage over the 15" that are already out there. As far as 1/12th and 30 degree corners I don't think these would really be a huge seller and they would make it more difficult to plan your track.
A pitlane would be really cool but I think the price point might prove to be prohibitive for a lot of people.


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## Tycoarm (Jan 7, 2006)

When I decided to go four lanes last year I was happy with the way it came out. Luckily for me I had plenty of Tyco track, I didn't have any gap or uneven issues.

Since I hear so many comments on how the Tomy curves never quite line up right, why not just work on making some various radius 4 lane curve sections that the standard straight sections just connect to. Also create the curve sections like the 1/32 guys do when they rout were they squeeze the lanes tight at the apex. I think these would lead to some interesting and eye catching layouts. 


I would also second the notion on creating aprons/ borders. For those who just want to create setups for races without the flare.


Tycoarm


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## Scafremon (Dec 11, 2006)

Joe,

If you decide to start fabricating HO plastic track pieces again, here are my thoughts.

Go Tomy compatible. As someone who decided fairly recently to get into HO slots, it didn't take me long to decide to go with Tomy. Research on the internet pointed me in that direction, and the fact that the only hobby stores in my area (So Cal) that carry HO slot track sets have Tomy sealed the deal.

If you were to tell me today that all of the pieces you listed are available right now, the 3.5" track with a quality undertrack power connection would be one that I would seriously consider implementing into my current design. The rest of the pieces I would consider the next time I change my complete layout, which may be many months or longer away.

Bill mentioned borders, and I think that would be a good idea. I just recently spent a few long days standing at my bandsaw making my mdf borders. I made individual pieces for each curved track in my layout, both inside and outside. It was tedious work, but less then $20 in materials. For those without bandsaws or who just don't want to spend the effort to make them, if you priced these right, I would think you would sell alot of them.

Another idea would be to sell a group of pieces that can be used together to accomplish a specific purpose, and do so better then what is currently available in the boxed sets. For example: a set of pieces that form the largest curve possible for the end of a 4' wide table. Or maybe a 3-turn chicane with built in banking. Or.... maybe people more into 1:1 racing could think of something that is very much missing from current sets.

As to whether you should invest the time and money into another HO track venture, I don't have a lot of input. HO slot racing in So Cal seems to be virtually dead. If the potential market in the rest of the country isn't significantly better, then I can't see how it could be worth it.

Jeff


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## TGtycopro (Jun 1, 2006)

> I think you may be making a mistake by concentrating on Tyco track as I just don't think that many people use it.


I'm not so sure about that and I can see just exactly why it should be considered a PRIMARY candidate.............I use it and if you watch Ebay you'll find that TYCO track can be picked up Very reasonable and IT SELLS!!!

Somebody is using it because 1000's of feet are sold every week on ebay.

I own probobly 600 + feet of Tyco track and the newer track ( post tycopro era) is very good track IMHO.

Tomy has been chosen recently simply because you have More options with the selections they have made available..........Tyco track is the one Line that actually could use a boost. How much more desireable would the track become if you could make a 4 lane out of it........have Big Sweeping turns.........perhaps even have working Pit Lanes ( ones that actually work and are functional unlike those that were included with their toy sets of the mid eighties)....I still dont believe the timing is right though............


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## Scafremon (Dec 11, 2006)

Grandcheapskate said:


> I personally eliminate Tomy because they are still apparently willing to produce new track pieces, as evidenced by their introduction of the 18" curve. This has made our mold, and the work we put into it, obsolete. Can't and won't be put in that position again.


Joe,

Maybe this is the exact reason why you DO go with Tomy instead of Tyco/Mattel. Tomy must be thinking that the addition of the 18" curve is going to increase their track sales, otherwise, I can't think if why they would do it. That may be a good reason to go with them.

I'm going to ask some questions here, and I'm ok if you don't answer them. 

How much money do you make from selling track?
(just joking with that one). :wave: 

I'm thinking you were the only one making 18" tomy curves before Tomy just recently jumped in. Is that true?

If so, how long were you the exclusive manufacturer of these pieces?

When do you think Tomy started thinking about making them?

What I'm wondering is how long you will have an exclusive, if we assume that Tomy will eventually jump in. 

How much time do you think you need to generate enough sales, to make the investment worth while?

How were you selling your 18" curves? I bought 6 or 8 of them from you (thank you very much btw!) but I remember it was tough to find you. I remember Crimnick was almost being elusive as to who I should contact for them. Bill (f1nutz) mentioned he bought them in a hobby store, so it appears you were doing some marketing and sales outside of this forum. Maybe you could factor in that a little better marketing push would increase sales a few percent.

How many 18" curves do you have left? As I recall, your price for them was very reasonable, especially considering the tremendous benefit they provided. Maybe enough of us HT members could pitch in and buy out your current stock.

I remember how pleased I was when I got my 18" track pieces from you - might have been the best money I have spent so far. It woudl be exciting to see you do something bold like that again, and I only hope the numbers crunch out to where you see it as being feasible.


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

Hi Guys,
First of all, let me say thanks to those who have bought the new curves or give them a positive review when asked.
I have been reading all the responses with great interest and hope this thread stays active for a while yet. I started this document earlier today, so I'll have to reply to any later postings in a follow-up tomorrow. I can tell you a little bit about the curves which were already made, how the marketing and sales worked out, and what I see as the only way the HO hobby can get stronger - by that I mean gain more mass appeal and draw in the young kids that the hobby will need to sustain itself and grow.
The 18" curves were originally the idea of Dan Esposito. I saw them when Dan was in the process of getting the prototype made. His biggest concern was that if he were to put out the money do do this, would it sell? With my help, we were able to get a distributor to take a little more than half the initial run with Dan and I taking the remaining inventory (a vendor friend sold most of my portion). It is the distributor commitment that allowed the project to go forward. I think you would be surprised at how few curves I have sold over the years; the bulk of the sales originated from the distributor.
After that was done, I saw what I considered to be a glaring need in the track area. Tyco never made a 15" curve, and had only produced a 6" 1/4 curve years ago. At the time I was looking at the market, Tyco/Mattel sets were still plentiful and the amount of Tyco track out in the marketplace had to be enormous. Vendors were loaded with track they pulled from Tyco sets and would sell at great bulk prices. The biggest problem that I saw with Tyco track, aside from the weak center tab, was the lack of more than just a 9" and 12" curve. With a 6" 1/8 and 15" 1/8 curve, and the design improvements which eliminated the weak center tab and bent the rail for better electrical connectivity, the layout possibilities with Tyco could meet, and in some ways exceed, what you could do with Tomy.
Even today, I do not consider the making of the Tyco 6" and 15" curves a mistake. There are factors which have played into the slower sales. First off, I did not get the same distributor commitment on the Tyco curves as I had gotten on the Tomy curves (the distributor did not have the cash available to purchase more curves on the heels of the 18" curves - it took quite a while for them to pay off the order for the 18" curves), therefore lots more of the curves remain in my possession; plus I had more made so I could bring the price down. The 18" curve was a new frontier for curve sizes in HO, the 6" and 15" curves did not have that kind of impact. Mattel stopped making sets and cars - nothing kills you like the manufacturer going into hibernation. Mattel slots were no longer sold in retail toy stores, which is where a majority of their sales must have come from in the past; a place visited by the kids we are trying to turn into slotters.
And, I have not aggressivly marketed the curves. Just think, if I have 5,000 curves, all I need is 500 people worldwide to buy 10 pieces each and I blow through most of my inventory. Don't you think there are 500 people people in the whole world who use Tyco track and would like to get new curve sizes? It's a big world. I think if I could reach them, I could move the track very quickly.
Let me ask a quick question. If you were not on these boards, and did not attend slot car shows, how would you have known about the Tomy 18" curves? My personal sales of the Tomy curves are not much higher than those of the Tyco curves.
Tyco or Tomy, it doesn't matter - track is not a big seller for anyone. But it is something I think all of us understand - whether you're a novice or a grizzled veteran. Newby or expert, we can all build a track. We know what we like and the more track options we have, the more enjoyable the entire experiance can be. After all, it is all about the track and the layout; otherwise, we'd all be racing on ovals. It is the track that makes each of our layouts unique and special.
Those who point out that the future of HO resides in attracting the young are absolutely correct. Without appealing to the kids, the hobby will pass out when we do; and we can't have that because all my slot stuff ain't gonna fit in the box with me! LOL
What needs to happen is that slots have to be back in retail outlets. This is a must. Hobby shops are good, but their real purpose would be to continue to feed the addiction. Sets and cars have to again be available in TRU, Target, Wal-Mart and all other major stores. If slot cars do not reappear in retail stores, I do not see how the hobby can reach the kids. There needs to be an economical starting point and one with high quality.
The sets need to be big enough to hold the interest of a young kid, while not being a frustrating experiance - this is why I would push for the cars in any introductory set to be based off the Tyco HP-7. Pancake cars are great, but you really need to be able to tweak them and learn to drive without traction magnets (which means a smooth track). Rocket magnet cars are simply too fast and cannot easily be worked on; I often invent new ways to curse the heritage of inline chassis designers.
But the HP-7? Slow enough to control, fast enough to be fun and as easy to work on as any chassis ever made. It runs right out of the box and will run forever. Get the kid started with that chassis and a nice large layout and maybe you got a shot at keeping him/her interested. With a different can motor and different strength traction magnets (both of which can be changed in a minute by anyone) and you've got a chassis with a new set of characteristics.
I know I can get track made, and good quality track at that. While I want to rout my own track one day, having plastic sectional track is still good because I like to change layouts until I get them right - or build new ones. As a slot car hobbiest, I want more track options. I have lots of other ideas, some of which get touched on every now and then, but the best addition right now is more track options.
I'll be back....

Joe


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## *MAYHEM* (May 4, 2007)

Here's a couple ideas:

Make sections that lock together side-to-side, thus eliminating alignment prblens and giving the user four lanes or two as he chooses. This would also allow borders to lock in place.

How 'bout developing pieces that are flexible enough to follow terrain contours.


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## twolff (May 11, 2007)

Hi Joe,

First of all THANKS! for bringing us an 18" Tomy curve. I use four of them in my layout. I would have never know they existed if not for the online forums and e-mail lists. I found mine at the Detroit swap meet last year or the year before. Knowledge gained online also influenced me to go with Tomy track once it became apparent that the LifeLike stuff wasn't going to cut it. There are some slot car sets present in retail. Mattel and LifeLike. LifeLike being the most available and also found in most Hobby Shops. Hobby Shops are the only place you will find a Tomy set in this area and usually only around Christmas.

I've been seeing to it that at least two kids (and their friends) know what slot cars are about. They enjoy it, but I don't think slot cars are on their Christmas lists. Attracting youth to a hobby can be a double-edged sword. The Parkflyer craze that has struck the radio control airplane community over the past few years like a tidal wave is a good example. The majority of the new blood sees little value in joining the old guard and does things their own way. Most young people today have an aversion to paticence, organization and work which puts them at odds with traditional RC clubs who have put a great deal of all three into obtaining, improving, and keeping RC airfields. The avantguard RC flyer will have to come around eventually, as they are proficient at getting radio control of any type banned at one public park after another thorugh annoying, reckless, or unsafe operation or for just failing to clean up after themselves. Sorry that took so long to explain  The slot car community may get the infusion of youth too, but it may not be what or from where you expected.

I'd probably enjoy adding a couple of 21" curves to my layout. But, the lack of a consistenly straight and flat 15" Tomy peice and the gaps between the different radi curves has me thinking about moving to Tyco. The cost of buying a bunch of 15" Tomy straights in an attempt to cherry pick the straight peices (if they exist) is a bigger investment than I can make. In any event, I'm staying with plastic sectional track. I just can't justify the cost of a high-end setup. A routed setup would be a possibility if I thought I could rail it. I can get the CAD and routing work done for free where I work. I'm the "computer guy" and the CAD and Fab Shop both owe me several favors  With 925 sq.ft. of finished basement, a commercial track that is free for the moving is prob. my ultimate fantsay as far as tracks go.

Tim


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## TomH (Jan 17, 2006)

Hi Joe. 
What I always thought would be neat would be longer replacement pieces for new or existing layouts. instead of 2- 12" straights, how about a single 24" piece. How about a 12" and a 9" into a 21" straight piece, or a 6"and 12" combined into a 18" . I can look at my layout and see many places where I could buy a longer piece and make a better smoother track. I am not a manufacturer, so I don't know how hard or how much $$$ it would take to do that, but I would like to have the opinions of the rest of the board to see if that would be something others would like to be able to buy to improve their tracks. A simple adapter could be made for other makes of H.O. tracks to be able to take advantage of the longer straights.


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## Scafremon (Dec 11, 2006)

Grandcheapskate said:


> Let me ask a quick question. If you were not on these boards, and did not attend slot car shows, how would you have known about the Tomy 18" curves?


I have never been to a slot car show (I don’t think they have them in So Cal). I heard about the 18” curves on this forum. If not from here, I would’ve stumbled upon them somewhere else on the internet; maybe ebay, maybe an online store. Even then, without the ‘must have’ comments from the forum, I may not have seen the benefit of them as quickly as I did.

If the future of HO slots requires that kids take up the hobby in large numbers, then the future is bleak, because I just don’t see that happening. Slot car sets are large boxes and take up a lot of shelf space, and retail outlets (Target, TRU, Walmart, etc) are not going to invest that shelf space until a demand for the product is observed. The retailers will respond to the demand, not try and create it.

Tomy just released a brand new set, and I’m not sure anyone but the veterans have noticed. I don’t watch racing on TV – is there any advertising during races for slot cars?

If the manufacturers are going to try and reach the kids directly, they need to advertise to them, and I think they will need to add some techno-pop to the product. Include the software for lap timing, and an easy connection to the PC. But now the cost goes up, and the parents may direct their kids to a lower cost product, since they know the attention spans of their kids are short.

But let’s say that somehow a buzz is created about HO slot cars, and the kids are interested, and the perfect starter set is available at retail stores (a big enough layout to hold their interest, and cars like the Tyco HP-7). How many of those kids are then going to want to take it the next level, with a semi-permanent layout and the desire to include larger after-market curves? Now the parents really have to be involved and interested in it, because they have to allocate the space in the house for it. It’s not a Tuckaway anymore. We’re talking bigger then a billiard table, which is quite a commitment to an area of the home.

Without a major push by Tomy/Tyco/Lifelike to reach kids, the future is going to rely on more middle-aged folk getting interested in the hobby, and passing that interest on their kids and friends. And as such, any growth will probably be small in numbers, but based on current status of the hobby, could be a large percentage increase.

Keep in mind, my opinions are based largely because I live in So Cal. Aside from a couple groups of a couple dozen guys in their 30’s to 50’s running on some garage track, there is no real exposure here to HO slot cars. We do not have seasons, so the kids are outdoors year round.


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## SplitPoster (May 16, 2006)

Very good thread - as far as slot cars go I am geographically alone in the wilderness, but here are my observations.

TGTycopro makes an excellent point - 1/32 is hot. Cars are accurate, detailed and tunable. What is the disadvantage? Size, space, and, maybe to a lesser extent, cost. 

Look at trains, more scales exist I know, but look at O gauge vs. HO. Similar comparitive dimensions, space and cost issues, dissimilar situation. Big O gauge locomotives are highly detailed and do all kinds of electronic tricks. However, most all the serious modelers are in HO, which is still much more popular. Kids used to get train sets all the time too, now it's rare, but the railroad hobby hasn't lost near about as much ground. Toys and gimmick sets help make someone's season, they don't build the hobby.

There has always been a strong interest in accurate scale models in people of all ages. That is why I have 1/32 cars that might as well be diecast for all the action they see. Why not appeal to that?

Workable, switchable pit lanes, with pit walls. Borders? How about molded gravel traps with Armco, or tire barriers? Worker stands and flag stations. Concrete barriers and catch fencing, like at any temporary circuit. One thing I thought about was concrete surface track - wide and rectangular, lanes following the line, to simulate the runways and streets of some temporary road courses. If it were in Tyco and I have TOMY, big deal, doesn't somebody make adaptors? If not, couldn't I?

Maybe it wouldn't be the ultimate for the serious scratch builders and kit bashers, but it would play to the strength of small scale racing - the ability to have a lot of variety and scenery, even elevation change, with a very high degree of accuracy in a relatively small space. 

Just thinking out loud, guys.


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## wm_brant (Nov 21, 2004)

*Bill's take on the history of slot racing*

I believe that interest in slot racing mirrors the national interest in auto racing.

In the 60s, road racing was hot. Ford was challenging Ferrari with the GT40, Chaparral was turning out unique cars, and Carol Shelby was turning out various models of Cobras. US open wheel racing was exciting, with the change from front engined cars to the mid-engine. We had the STP turbine cars, the Gurney Eagles, and many other unique cars. The Can-Am, Trans-Am and other race series were exciting -- unlimited competition in one series, and cars you could by from the dealership in the other. F1 saw a rapid evolution of their cars, and participation by American cars and drivers made the series relevant to people in the US.

Commercial slot racing appeared, grew frantically, and crashed like all other fads. Auto racing crashed, too, when the gas crisis of the early 70s hit. 

Slot racing hung on, kept going by the 'true believers' in all scales, but mostly in HO scale, as they were the only sets available commercially for quite a while.

Time passed. Open wheel racing went through a messy 'divorce' and dwindled in importance. NASCAR started to grow, as the marketing engine behind it started to fire on all cylinders. A revived Trans-Am series appeared and generated some interest. GTP racing appeared, and while it lasted, it was fast, exotic, and exciting. WRC rallying is hot outside of the US.

Slot racing entered a mini-boom in the 80s/90s. Commercial tracks went up again, and more 1/32 sets were available. While I don't remember much about HO in this period, I still see a lot of Tomy and Tyco GTP cars, so it must have been a driver for them, too.

But GTP racing flamed out. Trans-Am faded. US open-wheel racing kept getting weaker. NASCAR ruled. 

While NASCAR is big, oval racing does not translate well to a slot track, although many have tried. Ditto for WRC rallying.

Which brings us to today. NASCAR is huge, but may be starting to decline. US open wheel racing is on life support. There are some small US road racing series out there -- Grand Am, ALMS, and the Speed Challenge, but outside of NASCAR and the remnants of US open-wheel racing, nothing generates much in the way of national interest. F1 struggles as a series, while it's marketing machine keeps pulling in the dollars. There are local series in other nations -- DTM, JGTC, and many others, but nothing with a worldwide pull.

Slot racing in the US is slightly warm. 1/32 outside the US is hot, driven by the ability to focus on local series, but again, in the US, oval slot racing makes for boring racing. In the meantime, commercial tracks come and go, 1/32 racing is higher than it has been in a long time, driven mostly by a large variety of new cars, and HO continues to hang in there as it always has despite a lack of new investment. 1/43 scale is starting to grow, but the 1/32 companies that make it view it mostly as a kid toy.

The US is in a period of fast muscle cars again. That tends to drive interest in racing. But no new racing series has really gained traction -- yet.

Tomy, and Auto World are reinvesting in their products. LifeLike focuses on the mass markets, but has an insufficient line of track, and their cars are generally ignored by racers and lack aftermarket parts.

-- Bill


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

Hi Guys,
Well, let me see if I can address some of the questions and opinions which have surfaced since I last posted.
As far as I know, we were the first to come up with an 18" curve for HO. I am guessing that we had the curve out for about 3 1/2 years before Racemasters decided to produce its version of the 18" curve. I also saw on another board that they might also be thinking about a 21" curve.
To answer another question, the length of time to recoup your investment depends on whether or not you get any distributors to take the bulk of the run. If a distributor took the entire run, you could charge them $.01 a piece over production costs and get your money back the same day. If you have to sell it yourself, you are probably talking years of work, but you’ll make a few more dollars.
Either way, you’re not going to buy a tropical island based on the profits.
As to making more Tomy compatible pieces, that is not going to happen from my end; at least not with any financial commitment from me. If, and it’s a big if, you want to create track which has a chance of being sold, the only option I see is Tyco compatible. The differences between Tomy and Tyco are not that great. Take away Tomy’s deeper slot (a feature used only by after-market pins and AFX blades), 3” hairpin, 3” straight and 18” curve, and the differences disappear. Personally, I have no use for the 3” hairpin or the 3” straight – the 6” curve is more than tight enough. In fact, factoring in the Tyco single lane option, and off road pieces, Tyco track selection is greater. With the design improvements, lower cost and maybe just a bit more tweaking (remove the molded letter) there is no reason not to use the new Mattel if you are going with plastic track.
If you use Tomy track, I believe your only source is going to be Racemasters. It will all depend on how much money they invest in track. If you go with Tyco, it really depends on how much inventory is left and whether or not someone picks up the slot car line or a third party adds to it. 
Turn aprons would be a great addition to HO slots, especially since one size should fit all three brands of track, and it is something I would consider doing as quick as possible were the resources available.
Four lane curve pieces, no matter how appealing, are just not going to get manufactured (I believe) for the simple reason that the customer base at the moment is already small. The market for four lane track would only interest a percentage of those who own or want to build a four lane track. That is a small subgroup of an already small group. And it’s possible that four lane track would not appeal to those with six lanes.
Producing pieces that lock side to side to produce 4, 6 or 8 lane tracks would probably be best accomplished by creating undertrack clips. This should be fairly easy and inexpensive and would work with all existing tracks. It is possible that all future track design could somehow incorporate an even easier way to accomplish this feature.
Producing a piece of track which squeezes the lanes together entering a turn is simple. However, in order not to have to make special curves, the squeeze would occur before the curve and then open up to regular spacing just before the curve. Basically, you would have a piece of track with the slots at normal width on one side and narrow width on the other. You then use the pieces in pairs – normal to narrow to normal to curve. Or, you could just use the already existing 15” squeeze tracks before a curve. To create two different curves – one with normal slot width and one with narrow slot width, would not be economically feasible. 
I addressed the issue of long straights in another thread on this board inside this category. Look up “Longest Practical Straight”. While a 21” or 24” straight might not be a big leap over the current 15” straight, the fact is that Mattel is not making any more track as far as I can tell. Therefore, the supply of 15” Tyco/Mattel straights is drying up. Instead of making 15” straights, I would jump right to either a 21” or 24” straight and make it terminal/jumper capable.
I think very long straights that some people want, like 36” or 48”, would be best accomplished by getting a fabricator to rout straights from 4x8 sheets of plastic. This should insure that the straights are straight. The ends of the straights would be squared off like Aurora Model Motoring and this may require a special adapter track to go from Tyco (and Tomy) to this long straight.
I would think lap timers and lap counters would best be accomplished by using already existing PCs and software. All you need in terms of readily made accessories is something along the lines of the old Aurora electric lap counter track (a piece of track isolated from the rest of the circuit or with LEDs), software and the connection cable.
There are two electronic goodies I think could be useful. One would be an electronic system which simulates tire wear and fuel usage, and varies the voltage to your car accordingly. I would also love to see an electronic system which detects a deslot and cuts power to that lane for a given length of time (user adjustable) and/or creates a caution flag situation in which voltage drops on all lanes. This would create a set time penalty for a deslot and not rely on the quickness of a turn marshal, as long as the time delay is greater than the time it takes for the marshal to reslot a car. Ten seconds should do nicely. Tyco and Mattel both produced Race Computers which did fuel and tire wear. . Although I have not used them yet, the idea has been done.
Pit lanes are a great idea. Two problems I see. (1) How many could you sell. (2) What design would you use.
Doing a very specialized piece like a pit lane would be a gamble. First of all, you don’t know how many people would actually redesign their layouts to take advantage of them, or decide to use them in a new layout. And even if they do use them, they only need one or two. At least with curves or straights, you hope to get a sale of at last eight to each person.
Second, what would the design look like? Some guys would want the pit lane to go inside the track like NASCAR and Indy. Others would want a lane coming off to the outside of the track so they could pick up the car and work on it (clean tires?) during a long race. Either way, you need to have one lane cross the other to get into the pits. The problem gets more complicated as you go to four, six or eight lanes.
It could be done, but I worry about the sales. Unless the hobby gets real popular, I don’t see how you could recoup your investment in a pit lane piece.
I am assuming that model railroading is not suffering the same type of growth problems or decline that seems to affect slots. I would be interested to hear theories on why that is.
I think we all know that in order to grow and keep this hobby alive, we must get kids interested in this hobby. Not being a parent, I can only observe the behavior of other kids or learn what kids are like from friends who do have kids. From all indications, kids today are not like the kids growing up in the 50s, 60s or even 70s. The amount of material things that kids get today seems to remove any appreciation for the things they have – it all comes too easy. They must have, and usually get, all the latest gizmos. This is just the world in which they were born. But let’s stay on topic.
Growing up when us baby boomers did, we experianced the era of mechanical automation. Everything in the 60s was AUTO something. Many of us became very mechanically oriented. It carried through to our tinkering with slot cars and working with our real cars once we saved enough to buy that first piece of junk. Many of us probably spent time in the backyard with dad working on the family car. I’ll bet a lot of us can no longer work on the cars of today; therefore your kid never gets that experience. Today everything is electronic. Once it breaks, get a new one. The only exception may be PCs; you can actually replace parts on them.
Plus, I notice a growing trend in our society toward a lack of appreciation for those with a technical skill. Our society here in the US rewards those who manage, not those who actually perform the fuctions necessary to keep our society running. I have a saying "Your salary is inveresly porportional to the importance of your job". If you were going to college today, would you want to become a technican with a skill (scientist, teacher, engineer, computer pro, etc.) or try to get into something like stock broker or lawyer? Our society rewards those who contribute the least. Is it really any wonder kids do not learn technical skills?
However, we can’t paint all kids with the same brush. Most of us are only exposed to the people in our general area. We really don’t know about people in other areas, or other counties. It’s a big world and I’m sure there are kids out there who would be interested in a hobby like trains or slot cars. The trick is finding them and once you get them, make them want to stay.
Keep the cards and letters coming....

Thanks…Joe


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## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)

If I were king, I'd ban those hand-held games that kids are playing everywhere -- what is that? Game Boy? PSP?

I was at Road America yesterday for the ALMS race and I saw kids all around the track totally glued to the screen in their hands and not even noticing the RACE CARS RACING RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM!

Times change I guess. When I was kid I could not wait to get to the race track.

'doba


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

1976Cordoba said:


> If I were king, I'd ban those hand-held games that kids are playing everywhere -- what is that? Game Boy? PSP?
> 
> I was at Road America yesterday for the ALMS race and I saw kids all around the track totally glued to the screen in their hands and not even noticing the RACE CARS RACING RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM!
> 
> ...


 :thumbsup: Consider yourself crowned!  Now let's get to it!

I'll bring hammers :wave:


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## TGtycopro (Jun 1, 2006)

The ability to do a track like this one below (just as an example) With HO track has Never been possible..................BUT, it sure would open up alot of possibilities.........2 lanes to 3 2 lanes to 1..........single lane straights and curves for lead ins and squeezes (or for hillclimbs and rally's or parking lot tracks)
Getting Kids interested in HO slots can only increase if you can increase realism and while many young kids are not Likely to give up their Gameboys.......Remember, they dont drive yet either.

Why does Model rring Not have the same issues as Slots

#1 - Manufacturer cooperation & A National Organization
#2 - National Standards that All manufacturers use so that everybodys stuff can operate with anybody elses stuff
#3 - Diversity 
but more imprtant than all of this is that Model railroaders go out and SHOW their stuff..they build Portable layouts that can be displayed ANYWHERE.

Model railroaders promote their hobby ENDLESSLY!!!

Now this can be built in 1/32 NOW, TODAY.............Why not in HO??

Which HO racer wouldnt love to have the ability to utilize all these track pieces?
This was a well thought out track System............Tyco could be made into this type system (as could tomy) The Basics are all there.. :thumbsup:


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## TurnNBurn (Mar 13, 2007)

Grandcheapskate, long time lurker, seldom post - but this topic interests me. I currently club race and have a 85' four lane Tomy track with four of your 18" turns (very nice) for my faster cars and am currently building a smaller 50' (+/-) Tomy track for slower my cars (Tjets).

Other than a 21" curve, the only thing I think I would want in plastic sectional track would be straight that allows jumpers wires to easily be hooked up to it. My large track has 12 jumpers or 96 soldered wire leads attached to terminal strips. And, I hated soldering each of those wires to the rails. It does get easier as you do them but it is still not a fun job (to me). It would be so nice just take a wire, strip, crimp on a olderless connector, and slide it on to an extended tab on the underside of the track. 

Other than that, if you haven't sold out your 18" Tomy and 6"/15" Tyco curves, I would wonder what, if any, track pieces could be economically produced that would have a broader appeal. I would have thought those curves would be the most across the board desireable by the majority of slot car enthusiasts. And, maybe that's the point... unless you're into this hobby, you wouldn't know about cottage industries producing other parts for slots - be it track or performance parts.

This will probably be that last Tomy track I build. Not because I'll leave the hobby but I'll either go custom routed Wizzard or Bowman or route my own. A couple of our club members have routed their own four lane tracks and laid the rails. The routing doesn't look hard and they have jigs to route the add'l lanes and grooves for the rails. But, gluing in the rails looks to be the toughest part.

And, here's a tool I'd love for someone to build. A tool to help lay rail to a fairly consistent rail height. I don't have a lathe/mill to create such a tool but can't image it would be too hard but I wouldn't know. If someone has seen such a tool or knows who sells one, let me know.

Steve


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## Scafremon (Dec 11, 2006)

I agree that 1/32 is hot. At my LHS, the aisle that holds slot car track is about 20% HO (Tomy sets), and 80% 1/32 (Scaletrix). 

The HO cars (Tomy SRT's) are hanging on pins above the HO track sets. The 1/32 cars have about 6' of glass case along another counter, a couple of shelves high.

I'm guessing that if you walked in and advised one the employees that you were interested in getting involved in slot cars, they would be setting you up with 1/32 stuff.

It seems to me that 1/32 is currently in a growth spurt, but I have no idea if there are people making aftermarket track pieces for that scale. If the manufacturer's are keeping up with demand for new pieces, then even if this is the growth area of slot cars, there may not be a viable play for aftermarket pieces.

HO on the other hand is seeing no such growth spurt. The major manufacturers of track and cars are still in the dark ages - taking years to crank out a simple larger curve, and cranking out the same old cars with different colors. If there is any type of resurgence in HO (which would need to be created by the majors) then this is the best opportunity for aftermarket specialty parts.

But like I said before - having a 21" curve available, or a 3.5" terminal track is not going to create the resurgence. The boxed sets need to start moving off the shelves before the add-on pieces are going to be needed.

Joe, you seem pretty much sold on going Tyco/Mattel as opposed to Tomy, and if you think this is where the growth is going to be in HO, then I think it is the right move. If 1000's of pieces of Tyco track are exchanging hands on ebay each month, and those poeple are actualy building race tracks and then looking for speciality pieces, then this sounds like the way to go. The sales of the Tyco specialty tracks that you already have I assume support your decision that this is where HO is going. 

While typing this I just read Steve's (TurnNBurn) post, and I think he brought up a good point. If you were to manufacture 21" Tomy curves, who is going to buy them except for those people that have 18" curves? As of today, you have a good idea of how many 18" curves are out there (pre-Racemasters), and at best you might figure 25% of those curves would be eventually complimented with a 21" curve. 

I guess the bottom line is that, as a manufacturer of specialty pieces, you need to ride the coattails of the product that is going to grow, or, adaptor tracks need to have an appeal to the new slot car hobbyist.


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

The reality is that unless you sell sets, you will not gain new (to the hobby) customers. Unless you are going to sell sets with cars, scratch new blood off of your marketing list entirely and focus on enhancing what's already out there. Power drops, long straights, things that are easily incorporated into existing layouts and will improve the racing experience 100-fold. Curves are hit or miss based on the racing skills and/or creativity of the buyer. Something you don't see often on the web: many groups outlaw 6" curves. That is something that probably could've impacted your decision to make them in the first place, and you won't hear it on the web. Joe you need stuff that will be talked about trackside...real word of mouth still beats the web many times over in our little hobby. I'd bet you could produce and sell a pair of 30" Tomy straights for less than the cost of four 15" Tomy pieces (and with better quality to boot). I'd be clamoring to save enough to rip out every 15" pair I could replace, and I'd need 24 30-inches to replace them. Curves? I'm not gonna rip up my layout to change one section (ie, add the 18" stuff), but I'd replace _every pair_ of 1/8 curves with 1/4 radius ones in a heartbeat. That kind of stuff, in my mind, is gonna be your target areas. And if it makes my track, already popular, even better, the racing experience alone will be your best marketing tool.


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## wm_brant (Nov 21, 2004)

I believe the reason that model railroading has been a more stable hobby than slot car racing is because model railroading is a CRAFT. You strive for the most realism possible in your layout. You plan, you revise, you create unique scenes. The incremental improvements can go on forever. It is something that you can do by yourself, but it also works by getting together with like minded people to help spread ideas and innovations. There is an active press, along with numerous websites devoted to model railroading.

And yet, like slot car racing, model railroading isn't hooking the young kids. It's the kind of hobby that an established guy will get into.

Slot car racing is not a craft, it's competition. You can't race by yourself very well, you need a group of friends to race with or against. Friendly competition is one thing, but often -- like most competition -- it gets more serious. Some people thrive on that, some don't. The ones that don't drop out of the hobby or become 'social racers'. I'm not even going to get into collecting.

As for the 'realism' that 'digital' brings to slot racing... I think the most realistic series is the one that '76 Cordoba is in. I was totally impressed by their rules and their focus on realism in the racing. Realism isn't limited to lane changing. Realism can also be found in having realistic limits on what you can do, particularly when it is structured around a real racing series' rules. 

There really isn't much of a slot car press. AFAIK, there are two US printed magazines on slot racing. Without mentioning names, one magazine covers the events going on around the US, but has next to no 'how to' articles. The other magazine features new cars and new technologies for the most part, with an occasional 'how to' on making a slot car go faster, or building your own slot car. And -- I just have to say it -- some of the most terrible track layouts imaginable. The layouts are unrecognizable, tiny, and uninteresting to drive on.

Compare that to the model railroading magazines. They are full of 'how to' articles. They have multiple 'how to' books. The books and magazines don't push new products, as new products are not the focus of model railroading; instead it's realism, planning, operating, and building.

And as for 'knocking' the kids for wasting their time on video games and the like... I don't know about you, but I think I heard just about the same speech from my parents -- only about about slot racing -- when I was a kid.

Slot racing in the 60s was relevant. It was the application of state-of-the-art miniature electric motors, precision molded plastic bodies, and innovative hand-built brass chassis in competition. Many of the best commercial racers went on to become machinists. 

Today, those 60s technologies are not very important. Understanding computers is relevant today. Looking for holes in the software of games is relevant, speeding up data speeds to give you an edge in an on-line game is relevant. How will today's kids transfer what they have learned by playing games to their life? I have no idea, just as my parents could not imagine any possible benefit of wasting my time and my money at the slot track. It happens to a few, and for the others... they will come away with fond memories.

Guys, we are playing with toy cars. Enjoy it for what it is.

-- Bill


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

SwamperGene said:


> The reality is that unless you sell sets, you will not gain new (to the hobby) customers. Unless you are going to sell sets with cars, scratch new blood off of your marketing list entirely and focus on enhancing what's already out there.


 Exactly correct. That is why I said in one of my earlier posts that race sets have to get back into the retail stores so they are seen by kids and parents. The hobby stores then become the place to go if you want more. The set has to have a good large layout and the cars, in my opinion, should be the HP-7 due to the simplicity of the chassis.



SwamperGene said:


> Power drops, long straights, things that are easily incorporated into existing layouts and will improve the racing experience 100-fold. Curves are hit or miss based on the racing skills and/or creativity of the buyer. Something you don't see often on the web: many groups outlaw 6" curves. That is something that probably could've impacted your decision to make them in the first place, and you won't hear it on the web.


 I'll bet of they don't like the 6" curve, the 3" curve is definitely out.
The power problem is one reason why I propose doing a 3 1/2" straight with undertrack connections. In addition to providing an odd size, you could stick them almost anywhere to provide easy jumper points. Actually I would hope that any straight we make will be jumper capable.
As I look back on the decision to make the Tyco 6" and 15" curve, I wonder whether I would have been better off doing the Tyco 15" and 18" first, and leave the 6" for later on in the process. However, my thinking was that for the person who doesn't have a lot of room, the 6" curve allows for more track in a smaller space.



SwamperGene said:


> Joe you need stuff that will be talked about trackside...real word of mouth still beats the web many times over in our little hobby. I'd bet you could produce and sell a pair of 30" Tomy straights for less than the cost of four 15" Tomy pieces (and with better quality to boot). I'd be clamoring to save enough to rip out every 15" pair I could replace, and I'd need 24 30-inches to replace them. Curves? I'm not gonna rip up my layout to change one section (ie, add the 18" stuff), but I'd replace _every pair_ of 1/8 curves with 1/4 radius ones in a heartbeat. That kind of stuff, in my mind, is gonna be your target areas. And if it makes my track, already popular, even better, the racing experience alone will be your best marketing tool.


 My understanding is that to produce a mold for a 30" straight would be VERY high, and when the plastic is that long, it could easily warp. I do not believe making track to be price competitive with factory Tomy or Mattel is possible. I once heard that Racemasters was surprised that we could run off as "few" curves as we did - their minimum run is 100,000 pieces. Don't know if that is true, but if I could run off 100,000 pieces I could get the cost down to Tomy/Tyco levels - only I'd be living out of an old refrigerator box. I don't have the resources (money and space) to have runs that large.

Let's face it, many people are not going to change or add to their layout no matter what comes out. But, I think everyone can agree that having more track options is good for the hobby.
One other thing that would be great if it could be done - a copy of the Aurora Terminal Anywhere piece for Tomy and Tyco. If you have never seen it, it worked with the original Model Motoring track. You put it underneath two adjacent pieces of track and it had the 4 screw terminals out the side like the standard terminal track. It had four tabs which contacted the electrical tabs of both pieces of track, thereby producing an easy jumper point. Designing one for the non-squared off ends of Tyco and Tomy would be tricky.

Joe


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

Scafremon said:


> Joe, you seem pretty much sold on going Tyco/Mattel as opposed to Tomy, and if you think this is where the growth is going to be in HO, then I think it is the right move. If 1000's of pieces of Tyco track are exchanging hands on ebay each month, and those poeple are actualy building race tracks and then looking for speciality pieces, then this sounds like the way to go. The sales of the Tyco specialty tracks that you already have I assume support your decision that this is where HO is going.
> 
> While typing this I just read Steve's (TurnNBurn) post, and I think he brought up a good point. If you were to manufacture 21" Tomy curves, who is going to buy them except for those people that have 18" curves? As of today, you have a good idea of how many 18" curves are out there (pre-Racemasters), and at best you might figure 25% of those curves would be eventually complimented with a 21" curve.


 I don't know if Tyco is where the growth is - there may well be no growth, just a somewhat slow steady stream of baby boomers buying a few pieces every so often. What I do know is that I will not take the chance of doing another Tomy piece which they may decide to do in the future.
It is a shame that with all that could be done, Tomy decides to replicate something that was already out there. Hopefully, AW is not wasting resources creating it's own molds of Tomy compatible track. Wouldn't it be a hoot if AW spent money to create the mold for a 9" 1/4r curve? 
All I am trying to say is that if you are going to do track, I just think that Tyco/Mattel is the only option open to you. It's not a great option, but it is the best option.
And it is very true about 21" curves. I also believe that a 21" would be the last 1/8 curve produced. Anything larger might need to be 1/16th because of the size of the mold. Besides, with a lot of race tables being four feet wide, a full 21"r 180 degree turn would be the largest turn you'd be able to accomodate. I think after a 21" curve, you need to start looking at either 1/16th curves for the 9"-12"-18"-21" curves, or at 30 degree (1/12th) curves for those same sizes.

Joe


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## Scafremon (Dec 11, 2006)

Grandcheapskate said:


> Exactly correct. That is why I said in one of my earlier posts that race sets have to get back into the retail stores so they are seen by kids and parents.


Joe, do you foresee that happening?


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## Scafremon (Dec 11, 2006)

Grandcheapskate said:


> What I do know is that I will not take the chance of doing another Tomy piece which they may decide to do in the future.
> It is a shame that with all that could be done, Tomy decides to replicate something that was already out there.


Personally, I think wahoo at Racemasters should have bought your mold, or contracted with you for those 18" curve pieces. I'm guessing that those conversations happened, but didn't work out, for whatever reason.

But whatever piece you decide to make, if it fills a niche, and has the appearance of profitibility, someone is going to eventually compete with you. 

If Mattel sets start flying off the shelves of your local walmart, then Mattel is your next Tomy.


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## TGtycopro (Jun 1, 2006)

> Exactly correct. That is why I said in one of my earlier posts that race sets have to get back into the retail stores so they are seen by kids and parents. The hobby stores then become the place to go if you want more. The set has to have a good large layout and the cars, in my opinion, should be the HP-7 due to the simplicity of the chassis.


I remember back when I decided to lay out my own hard earned cash for a new set back in the mid 70's.........I was right around 17......driving /working and going to school and Knew that my Old slot set was too small..........Tycopro had the largest set out at the time.........something like 57' of track.
Of all the sets i have seen over the last 4 or 5 years, I dont think any of them had more than 30' and most were in the 21-24' range.....many are gimmik sets ....by gimmiks i mean lop the loops and climb a wall and roller coaster type stuff and daredevil jumps.(i dont think gimmiks ever did sell that well).
Whats my point here..........you not only need sets in the stores, you need the RIGHT SETS.............and it needs to be Built and Displayed.........AND finally...
IT NEEDS TO HAVE A COMPUTER ATTACHED TO IT!!!

Manufacturers seem to think that they need to keep things simple.....what they dont realize is that most of these kids out there are SMARTER when it comes to Technology like computers and their uses...then THEY ARE!!

also........realism isnt JUST the ability to change lanes, If you havent raced on a Digital track than you cant Know what its like to race Slot cars IN TRAFFIC!!!!
6 cars on a 2 lane..............maybe 8 cars on a 4 lane squeezing to 2 then 2 then back to 3 then 4............Yes, you need a fair amount of room to be able to do this which brings up my other point.........Providing room to the younguns to be able to build and create a club.

How many of you have a local hobby shop providing space to ANY type of club???
This used to be normal....the hobby shop had an area for a Slot club or a model rr club or in some cases...BOTH!!
Now, money is everything and space is money and nobody gives anything for nothing........This is another hurdle that is difficult to overcome.

Also keep in mind that few sets are being made and of those that are, the hot seller is the one with SET ONLY cars........50% of these are purchased by collectors for the cars and the track & peripherals are peddled on ebay.

I think if you want to save HO, it needs to be brought into the new millenium, and very soon!!!
This means a New track System that can utilize the millions of pieces already available ans a few specialty pieces manufactured along with a New control system and controllers and Chipped cars with the ability to chip older cars.

It can be done.......they can digitally chip a Z scale locomotive.

So.........until someone moves HO into the future...I still just dont see it being anything resembling a good investment and its going to take more than 100,000.00 to create a digital system for HO and do it right.............I believe it will be done on the heels of success in 1/32......When and by whom is the question along with will it be too little too late!!!


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

Scafremon said:


> Personally, I think some wahoo at Racemasters should have bought your mold, or contracted with you for those 18" curve pieces. I'm guessing that those conversations happened, but didn't work out, for whatever reason.
> 
> But whatever piece you decide to make, if it fills a niche, and has the appearance of profitibility, someone is going to eventually compete with you.
> 
> If Mattel sets start flying off the shelves of your local walmart, then Mattel is your next Tomy.


 To answer a couple of Scafremon's questions:

(1) I don't know if racesets will again appear in retail stores. I think if anyone wants to try to get into slot cars, getting a footprint in retail stores is a must. When I see all the crap that Mattel sends out there for Hot Wheels, some of them in huge retail boxes taking a lot of shelf space, I can't help but believe that if that junk sells, slot cars would do quite well.

(2) As far as I know, there was no communication between Racemasters and anyone concerning the 18" curves. However, since I do not own that particular mold, I do not know that for certain.

(3) As I said before, when I'm in the local TRU or KB Toys, I see the most useless Hot Wheels junk you can imagine. I simply cannot believe that if some of that shelf space went to slots, that the slot sets wouldn't sell. This is especially true for Mattel. They already have the molds and manufacturing in place - there is no tooling necessary.

Also, consider this. If you have a copy of Dan Esposito's Mattel supplement, you'll see a lot of cars, mostly F1, which I'm sure most of us have never seen in person. Why? The sets those cars came in sold out before most of us even knew they existed. I think this clearly indicates that if Mattel puts out a set with desireable cars, the sets disappear real quick. True, the sets probably sell because a collector wants the cars, but the point is they sell, and sell quickly.
If Mattel (or someone buying the Mattel line) were to get the sets into retail stores, include some desireable cars, and have a good layout with all desireable pieces (no 9" 1/4 curves), I do believe they will move and move quickly.

Joe


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

TGTycoPro,
Some excellent points and I have no disagreement with any of them. Without question, if you put a set, or sets, into retail stores, the set must be a large, good layout. I would go as far as to say that the layout should cover a 4x8 board. There should be no gimmick track, nothing less than a 12" curve, no elevation changes and turn aprons instead of guardrail.
Whether you offer controllers and a power supply as part of the set becoms a trickier question than you may think. One the one hand, you want to provide a good controller and power supply to the person just starting; that will cost money. On the other hand, you don't want to include those items if this is the person's second or subsequent set. It may be the best solution is to either make two versions of the set (one complete, one without controllers/power), or have the set not contain these items amd sell the controllers and power supply as a seperate package.
Digital is something I have not looked into or have any knowledge of. However, I think I get the picture and if digital could be incorporated into existing track, that would open up a huge market that I could see being quite profitable (I'm starting to sound like a Ferengi), especially when you can use all your existing track.
Lastly, computer hookup. Without question a must.

Joe


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## Montoya1 (May 14, 2004)

If the 6'' is too tight/banned then what about a 7.5'' turn and a 10.5'' to go with it?


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## wm_brant (Nov 21, 2004)

Grandcheapskate said:


> To answer a couple of Scafremon's questions:
> 
> (1) I don't know if racesets will again appear in retail stores.


Ummmm... Actually, SCX has just started selling 1/43 sets at Target. Appears to be good quality, generous amount of track (25'), nicely detailed F1 cars, and no kid loops, wall climbers, etc. About $90. There is a smaller figure 8 tuner kit. They also sell extra cars (2/$20) (NASCAR, F1, Tuner), and extra track. You can make a 4-lane setup with this track.

The plan is for SCX to start selling the product line in hobby shops later, but the sets will be more elaborate.

It appears that several of the F1 sets have been sold at the Target store close to me, along with extra cars and track.

Here's a link to a poorly translated english version of a german review of the SCX Compact line:

SCX Compact Review 

-- Bill


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## Scafremon (Dec 11, 2006)

Maybe, to get kids interested, we need to re-think the standard controller we are used to.

Maybe this will get 'em interested:


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## martybauer31 (Jan 27, 2004)

Grandcheapskate said:


> TGTycoPro,
> Some excellent points and I have no disagreement with any of them. Without question, if you put a set, or sets, into retail stores, the set must be a large, good layout. I would go as far as to say that the layout should cover a 4x8 board. There should be no gimmick track, nothing less than a 12" curve, no elevation changes and turn aprons instead of guardrail.
> Whether you offer controllers and a power supply as part of the set becoms a trickier question than you may think. One the one hand, you want to provide a good controller and power supply to the person just starting; that will cost money. On the other hand, you don't want to include those items if this is the person's second or subsequent set. It may be the best solution is to either make two versions of the set (one complete, one without controllers/power), or have the set not contain these items amd sell the controllers and power supply as a seperate package.
> Digital is something I have not looked into or have any knowledge of. However, I think I get the picture and if digital could be incorporated into existing track, that would open up a huge market that I could see being quite profitable (I'm starting to sound like a Ferengi), especially when you can use all your existing track.
> ...


What's wrong with having an elevation change on a track? Real courses have them, that makes no sense to me.....

I also believe a good controller and power supply is key, I think that is the reason a lot of people end up shelving their week old purchase. It's not much fun to have your car launched because the car in the other lane comes off and now you have all the juice in your lane, and then have those crappy controllers that seem to come in EVERY set. A base 45 ohm Parma would be cheap enough to include in sets ($20 retail, should be less to stick into a set) but I do like the idea of selling them seperate as an upgrade to the sets. The other about power supplys, why can't a decent one be made for cheap? You can get a 12 volt variable power supply that will run 4 G-Jets for $10 and it works great even with cars flying off the track. Those other bricks have been around forever, you'd think somewhere along the way they could be upgraded.

If you give people a controller that will actually control a car and a decent power supply, that would go a LOOOONG way to keeping people in the hobby. Then throw in some fun cars that a newbie can just put on the track without having to tweak and shim half the components, you'd be set.

I also agree wholeheartedly about the computer hookup, dead on along the suggestion about power taps and you have something people can grow with and not stick in the closet out of frustration.


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

*Whats a guy to do?*

I tried to hop in the wayback machine and remeber the days. 

Like the masses today. We didnt have a dedicated slot room with deluxe benchwork. Sets were assembled, reconfigured and broken down many times.

Usually right on the carpet, the 'ole pingpong table, or your bedroom floor. We learned to scorn the Gimmick pieces, save for maybe the country bridge, until the chassis started getting lower and high centering became a reality.

Seemed like mom or dad would put up with it for a while. Then the time would come when it was time to "pick that mess up!" The beauty of HO was the table top aspect. The erector set factor was an important feature as well.
Lock and joiner for all it's faults was easy to assem/break down. Better be quick cuz Mom was on the warpath! LOL. It withstood the abuses of youth and test of time.

If there's one drawback to todays track systems it's the delicate nature of the tabs and wangs. A certain amount of prudence is required when setting up or tearing down. Frustrating to kids impatient to race or hustling to put it away cuz Mom sez so! Bust a modern tab or wang and the set is over unless ya got a spare. No kid wants the "Adult supervision required" clause invoked, nor do they have the patience to wait for someone to find time to help them. More busted track these days than there ever was...good for manufacturer's LOL

Cars are faster today and a skoshe bigger. As Joe said 6" radius is out of the question and 9" radius is pushing the edge as well. With todays hi-zoop cars track lengths need to be longer. The days of puttering skillfully along on a tight radius track with a t-jet are long gone. The track system suited the cars. A kid could take a few bites out of his sandwich while waiting for his t-jet to traverse a long basement back stretch. Kids will be kids. thats the law!
If a car does 1200 scale miles an hour their gonna go 1201! Twisty annoying courses just invite more "offs" and dont provide the oppurtunity to stretch the cars out. Providing bank turns at the end of a long chute would also help with the "offs" as well.

A set should come complete! Hence the word set. Perhaps a carefully thought out two lane that could be upgraded to four lane with the additional subset. An additional subset of just straights could be offered to stretch your layout if so desired, either stretching to a huge two lane or medium large four lane. This concept was used with good success by Model RR manufacturer's in Europe.

It may seem redundant, however the theme of the set is very important. No kid wants to be Quincy MD rushing off to yet another homicide! LOL Of course I softballed that for emphasis but you get my drift. Yet the cool factor is paramount to getting them off the shelves. Versatility and an easyway to tailor the set to the individual house hold conditions can only help the cause.

A well thought out expandable set thoughfully created by someone who has a clue would be prefferable to another box of plastic junk thrown in a box for the desperate Xmas crowd. I wish you all the luck in the world Joe!


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## Montoya1 (May 14, 2004)

Bill Hall said:


> A certain amount of prudence is required when setting up or tearing down. Frustrating to kids impatient to race or hustling to put it away cuz Mom sez so! Bust a modern tab or wang and the set is over unless ya got a spare.


Is this the answer?


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## SplitPoster (May 16, 2006)

Agree with Bill, love the 4 lane track. Cars are so fast and sticky that just making it around the track doesn't take the skill it used too. Remember, kids are playing video games that require a lot of eye/hand coordination and timing. Those games are all scored, kids try to beat each other.

I would guess that to appeal to a younger market a set needs a timing system included. Low score/high score, it's in everything they play, and without timing the subtle effects of tuning and modifying cannot be measured by eye. A few hundredths makes all the difference in racing and gaming, sure can't measure it "one-Mississippi, ".

I still say looking backward for an improvement on the same idea isn't the complete answer. The popularity issue isn't all with the track. It's what you integrate with it. Tell me if there was a raceable Daytona set that actually looked like Daytona (hmmm, road course and oval configurations) that it wouldn't sell even if it was $$$$expensive. All these diecast collectors would fall over themselves to have one....


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## amsra (Sep 21, 2006)

This thread seemed to have split into two discussions--one about track pieces and another about the relevance and profitability of sets.

As far as track pieces go. I would love to be able to add a "dogleg" to my 25' back straight; so I would be all for the 30° curves in 21" and 24" sizes. Plus they could be used on the outside of already available 18" pieces for 90° and 180° curves. The 3½ terminal also would be hugely useful.

As for the Tyco/Tomy debate--you have to make a business decision on this one. All of our club tracks are made from Tomy track. Most of our tracks have either a chicane or 3" hairpin in the layout because most real race tracks have some sort of either and Tomy saw fit to make these pieces.

If you made the pieces I wanted in Tyco and I wanted to add them to my layout, I'd find a way to do it. LifeLikes adapters anyone?


As for the set debate is concerned. I have been in the specialty retail business for over 30 years, not the hobby business, but a similar non-essential leisure activity and HO slot car sets have missed the boat for many of the reasons stated above. Too small in size, too rediculous of a concept and poor marketing are all reasons for a lack of continued success.

You need to have sets that appeal to retailers of all sizes and enough different sets that small retailers can carry different sets than mass merchants. Remember when Sears and JCPenney catalogs had exclusive sets? The same concept can work for Target (1 Target Dodge and another NASCAR racer, or a Target Indy car with another car) and the local hobby shop gets sets with ALMS cars and different track pieces, etc.

How well would a set sell, especially in Europe, with 2 current F1 cars, enough track of the proper length and radii to make a replica of Silverstone or Magny Cours with Lewis Hamilton on the box lid. Aurora used Sterling Moss to sell slot cars in the sixties. How about a set with a couple of current ALMS cars or Corvettes with track to make a Mosport or Watkins Glen with Ron Fellows or Earnhardt Jr. on the box for the North American market. Will kids know who these people are or what the tracks are? Maybe yes--maybe no. But if parents know and buy them for their kids then the learning process begins.

I think the problem with HO in regard to 1/32 is that the variety of cars available in 1/32 is much more based on current racing cars. They have very realistic NASCAR cars, ALMS cars are prevelent, as well as F1 and Indy cars. HO has lagged behind in offering new and correct graphics on cars--even if those graphics were used on old molds. How many different paint/graphic combos can you think of for just about any car?

Our club has been racing for 25 years and in that time there have been many people come and go. You can pretty well predict the life cycle of kids in the club. Between the ages of 8 and 11 they can't wait to race with the club regulars but have to be helped along. By the age of 12 they are really into it and participation and success is at its greatest until about 15 to 16 years of age and most move on to other things. Some come back again--in 10 years or so. But when they come back are there new/current cars to peak their interest? No--there are the same 57 Chevys, just now in pink and purple. Most of us left this hobby for a period of time while doing other life chores, but we all have come back. Keeping the hobby alive involves keeping it current with new product, not only for our generation (read as old guys) but for our kids who will come back to it when they are ready and able.


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## martybauer31 (Jan 27, 2004)

Montoya1 said:


> Is this the answer?


For those of us that are dedicated to the hobby, yes, if they EVER finish this. 

I can say without a doubt very few folks are going to want to spend the money it would take to get that setup without knowing if they are really going to enjoy it or not.

I started out with the Super International set a year and a half ago, it was fun and I enjoyed it and knew I wanted more than the $125 investment I started with, but it was a good start nonetheless. 

I now have a Brystal gracing my garage, along with participating in my local slot car group, Western States, the G3 Championships, and The Fray last year, so 5K plus later and I am definitely into it, but I don't think the GAR track is the place to start.


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## TGtycopro (Jun 1, 2006)

wm_brant said:


> Ummmm... Actually, SCX has just started selling 1/43 sets at Target. Appears to be good quality, generous amount of track (25'), nicely detailed F1 cars, and no kid loops, wall climbers, etc. About $90.
> SCX Compact Review
> 
> -- Bill


Bill, Carrerra has the same thing and this is in direct competition with Artin which has been coming on strong as an Affordable alternative to 1/32..........all the scales are making HO less and Less attractive because the Larger cars are running at closer to TRUE SCALE speeds instead of 2000 scale MPH.
Carrerra and SCX have also had a really difficult time cracking Scalextrics Grip on the 1/32 market.............the percentages are way one sided with 3 of the major manufacturers splitting 45% of the 1/32 Track & Set market..........Hornby's really grabbed the lions share of the market and its not because they have Better Track or even Better cars..........they understood 2 things VERY WELL...........NEW Technology & Marketing that technology on an International basis...............they were also the only ones who right off the bat said.............Our digital technology can be used with ANY of the other manufacturers cars!!!

So theres Artin all by themselves plodding along with this newly created scale (which by the way is Considered METRIC O gauge 1/43 where as American O Gauge is 1:48 )
So Artin creates this new system ( no doubt to go with the same dept 57 buildings that Bachmanns successful On30 line was originally designed for and hobbyists took to levels far surpassing even their dreams)and all by themselves in this little niche they started to HURT the struggling 1/32 manufacturers..................so what to do what to do......Hmmmmmmm if we cant crack the 1/32 market, lets go after the 1/43 market................and they will AND you watch...they'll make it Digital.....( i'm betting on Carrerra being first to introduce 1/43 digital and they Will make it compatable with artin so that all artin cars can be chipped......they may be slow but they are not going to makethe same mistake twice!!!

Now.............my point to all of this is...............1/64 Slotcars will either adapt Quickly OR they aregoing the way of the DODO because 1/43 is JUST NOW starting to be a force.

1/64 cars can be detailed far better than they are.............manufacturers dropped that ball

1/64 cars are too fast and need to be slowed down (HP7 chassis are a good example of the MAXIMUM and I'd weight the hell out of it...maybe by going Die Cast Body (for better detail)

Yes......the old T jets will be around for as long as there are Old die hard T jet people but you can bet that eventually all they will be is Collectibles

HO NEEDS new technology NOW..............agressive Marketing of that new technology YESTERDAY..............I would say that a manufacturer should be marketing what they dont even have yet.....start creating some Hype...start getting people excited...........THEN Spring the new HO Slot System on a Drooling Public on Nov 23rd (or whenever the day after thanksgiving is)

If it doesnt happen soon...........1/43 will never be supplanted and will become "the new HO" (just like 1/64 did to 1/87)......manufacturers wont even make 1/64 anymore...No need in the marketplace...........they may sell a few collectible 1/64th cars but you wont be able to get new track, new parts etc etc (unless a cottage industry feeds you)




> 7.5 and 10.5" radius track


.........

AHHHH WHAT?????????  

For radius's, the 12r and 15r go together right? ( i do not own any 15R curves so dont know....I assume this is why they were made so you could 4 lane using 12 as the inner Radius)
Now if you figure 12r and 15r as the smallest Radius curve and come up with 2 more radius's larger......(is that 18r and 21r??............maybe i dont want to know LOL )
these 2 additions could certainl eliminate all of those Small corners all together, and theres nothing like learning to drive through those increasing and decreasing radius turns.................a big sweeper that tightens up on you is a Daunting curve LOL :thumbsup:


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## Jim Norton (Jun 29, 2007)

*One track for all*

What I can't understand is what benefit manufacturers receive when their track will not mate up with another manufacturer's track? Model railroading corrected this problem with track and rolling stock 50 years ago which no doubt has helped to promote the hobby.

Now, with Tyco track in limbo and Life-Like so limited........It would appear to be a good time to select one track design. Walther's should began to include Tomy track with their Life-Like sets (along w/ a tomy/Life-Like adapter) and end production of Life-Like track.

Standardization of track will grow the hobby. It will increase the interest of kids if they can easily combine their set with a buddy's to make something much more exciting and larger than a figure eight.

But, the manufacturers of HO need to offer more realistic sets and some level of promotion. The model railroad industry has recently done this with their "World's Greatest Hobby" campaign.

One thing I still can't believe is what little impact NASCAR has had on slot cars. When Life-Like released its Fast Trackers in the early nineties, I just knew that it was a matter of time before one could buy a realistic NASCAR 4 lane set. It never happened.

Based on the popularity of NASCAR one has to wonder why something along the lines of Racemaster's recently released Long Beach set has not been produced for the Daytona 500. Why did Life-Like not create some 24" radius 4 lane bank turns for its NASCAR Fast Trackers and offer a huge tri-oval layout and sell it at Wal-Mart and Target? You just know this would have been a big seller! So, I blame the manufacturers for lack of innovation and vision.

Speaking of Racemaster's Long Beach set....This set should set the standard for future sets. What is so appealing is the huge size of this track. This has to be a selling point as today's homes are larger than 40 years ago. (1971 - 1,800 square feet.....2001 - 3,300 square feet). I just can't help from thinking that big, realistic sets with alternate smaller track plans is very marketable. Especially when compared to all the "spaghetti" sets of the past years. Now, if we could just get a four lane version of the Long Beach set!

As far as track pieces go clip on aprons would be a great and could be used on all tracks. Somebody really needs to offer these in black and in red/white.

History will record Joe's 18" curve as charting a new direction for HO slot racing. I first saw these on a website called Jay's Race Place and quickly bought 8. I could not believe these sweeping 18" radius tracks!

Promotion, realistic racing scenarios and large and appealing track layouts will do wonders for the hobby.

Jim Norton
Huntsville, Alabama


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## krazcustoms (Nov 20, 2003)

I know this is off the ORIGINAL topic, but as someone mentioned, this topic has split into to different, but still related directions.

Here's what I would propose to any manufacturer who is still interested in getting kids into slot car racing: 

a) The track should come pre-assembled in some sort of vacuformed tray so they can just open it up, plug it in and go. The track should still be modular (tyco, tomy, etc) so that IF the interest remains, they can take it out of the introductory tray and expand on it. Someone mentioned it already, but I think one of the biggest turn-offs for kids is the repeated setting up/tearing down of tracks. This is evidenced by the fact that 99 percent of the tracks I get at yard sales/flea markets are still half-assembled and jammed into the box. Even if a kid felt like digging out the race track on a Saturday, one look at that box jammed with track would change his mind. Something pre-assembled in a tray would be super-easy to slide under a bed and if a kid felt like racing, there wouldn't be an hour of figuring out wires and track - they would just plug in and go. It wouldn't need to be all that big, either. If they sustained an interest in it, they could add to it later (of course by then they would move up to a 4 x 8 piece of plywood or something).

b) It should have a lap counting/timing system built in for obvious reasons. It doesn't have to be expensive, either. Radio Shack made some simple little inexpensive system for their zip-zaps, so something similar (or the exact same thing) would work on this. If the interest grew, they could upgrade to a better timing system later, but there should be SOMETHING right from the get-go.

c) There shouldn't be any guardrails. Instead, maybe equip the cars with front and rear guide pins for starters, and put in the instructions or somewhere that as they get more comfortable they can remove the rear pin. Kinda like the bumpers they have at bowling alleys for little kids. At some point, the kids WANT them removed. If the "introductory" set comes in its' little tray, it would be counter-sunk so the cars could just slide around the corners. However, aprons should be made for all radius turns so that once the kid grows out of the introductory tray and onto the plywood the cars can still slide around the corners.

d) Introductory sets shouldn't have any elevation changes. When I would set up a track under the Christmas tree, I learned quickly that any over/unders would all end up on the same level as soon as one of my nephews would lean on it to reach for their de-slotted car. I would bet that's the cause for most of the broken track out there. Overs and unders can come later. For an introductory set, it should all be on one level.

e) Mattel got something right in the adustable settings on the controllers. It's simple, but it's a good idea for little kids.

f) No gimmicks. Keep it simple. Just throw in two street cars to start. If the kids want more detailed, more expensive licensed racing cars they should be available seperately to keep the cost down on the initial set.

g) It would need some killer box art. The newer stuff just doesn't have it. There's something about the old watercolor racing graphics that they used to use that grabs my attention and makes me want to race. Just a picture of an assembled track doesn't seem to cut it.

This is a great discussion!


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## vaBcHRog (Feb 19, 2003)

I agree with Kraz. But here something to ponder why not go smaller down to N gauge. Something along the lines of the Micro Machines. Take Kraz's idea and have it come as a complete ready to race package. But design it so it could be integrated with other complete package releases for a bigger badder set.

A new chassis design that would allow realistic bodies and speeds. Also have the chassis designed so the characteristics of different cars could be downloaded into the car you are racing. Kind of like the Hot Wheels Racing games the kids like. Let them build their own car. Also the track lap counting system should be able to download different racing scenarios where the cars characteristics would be taken into account. Have the ability to upload the results of your races.

Make slot racing a challenging game to the kids

Now for something made of plastic that is not track. How about dewsign some plastic wheels for HO slot cars that allow the changing of the face of the wheel like the 1/32 guys have. Good looking wheels will sell to everyone.


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## tjd241 (Jan 25, 2004)

*Okay then....*



Bill Hall said:


> It may seem redundant, however the theme of the set is very important. No kid wants to be Quincy MD rushing off to yet another homicide!!


How about the one below? :roll: 

Seriously... It can't be the same old same old. No more re-packaging of older releases with a johnny come lately idea. Fresh track designs and fresh cars from ALL genres of automobilia (new and old). Technology of TODAY (at the very least timing&counting), larger track sections, better controllers, adjustable power supply for racing and cruising, track s/b compatable with *all* ho cars (including my tired old tjets). They've been running since the 60's, so why stop now? I'd like to think I could pass them down to my grandkids someday (when I have some).... AND still run them myself in the meantime on some slick new track. 

nuther dave


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

I really like how this discussion has gone. There have been some intriguing ideas presented and a number of opinions. It is all good stuff.
One idea presented was a "raceset in a tray". At my house, I have a new Rokar set where they did exactly this - it was called "Crazy 8". It is a basic figure 8 mounted on a landscaped background. I think the track has guardrail, but I'm not sure. I have taken it to shows priced at $50 (the original dealer cost was $80!) with two cars and have never even had someone give it a second look. I took the cars out and brought it to a flea market for $5. I still have it. Artin also had a couple of these types of sets. I don't believe they ever sold well and I don't think this would be a way to go.
If you are going to do a race set and include controllers and power supply, I would use already existing products. Someone mentioned Parma controllers - perfect. And if you could include a nice little $10-$20 variable volt power supply that gets you started with clean power, terrific. You don't have to make everything. As I've said before, do not reinvent the wheel.
The HP-7 (or a clone) would be the best introductory car. By controlling the voltage, the speed could be controlled. Maybe even include an extra can motor (both faster and slower) and traction magnet (again, both weaker and stronger). That way, if they want to change the characteristics of the car, they can.
I do not believe the pancake chassis is dead. In fact, I have found out that I keep going back to my original Aurora pancakes because they are my favorite. But, pancakes are not good as an introductory car - not in today's instant gratification world.
In terms of bodies. Maybe I'm getting like all the old folks, but it seems to me that street cars back in the 40s, 50s and 60s, into the 70s had a style that hasn't been captured since. I know that it may be important to produce modern bodies to get the kids interested. My question is - are the cars of today exciting enough to get excited over?
However, I do believe that offering sets without controllers and power supply would be a good idea. I know I would have loved to have saved a few bucks over the years by buying sets without controllers and wall warts. Plus, I would not now have a mountain of controllers and wall warts. That was all just wasted material.
As Bill mentioned, supplementry kits like all straights could be sold to enhance the set. If you've got the room, make some of the straights longer.
I will need to see if there is a way to create repair clips for Tyco and Tomy. No reason a broken tab should be the end of a piece of track. Personally, I prefer the snap together track (except Aurora AFX) over L&J.
Computer hookups to a set would be mandatory and I would think, pretty easy. It's the software that would need to be designed to do what you'd like. 
I was thinking about the packaging for a set and the support provided. The set should have a nice picture of the layout and cars on the cover. Really nice box art would be a big plus. However, spending the money necessary for licensing and endorsement would probably be very high - I'm sure that stuff no longer is cheap. I would doubt a small company would or should do that.
Actually, that's a pet peeve of mine. Manufacturers will spend millions to get their logo on a car, buy they want you to pay them in order to put it on your toy car. My opinion - if you don't want the free advertising I can give you, I'll find someone who does.
On the back of the box, you would show all the track pieces and accessories available. Make sure your website is included.
You put together a section on your website for information - a place where kids can go to get information on tuning a car, building layouts, layout designs, club information, dealer information, links to other HO sites. Maybe have a board like this one for your product.
Bottom line is you don't just sell the kid a set, you sell him an entire hobby and support system. The website would be of almost no cost to the vendor and it's value would be enormous.

Joe


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## TGtycopro (Jun 1, 2006)

> But here something to ponder why not go smaller down to N gauge.


Dont Even think it.....  You must never have seen an N scale Car.......I Have several....they will sit on my thumbnail and are not as wide..most postage stamps have a larger footprint......N scale wouldnt be any fun in racing AT ALL!!

One thing was mentioned earlier about slots/Model railroading why model rr is growing and slots is not.

I forgot to mention (however somebody did say an active press) You all probobly do not know this but many have probobly been in their public Library and seen Model railroader on the magazine rack there............Did you know that Model railroader donates their magazine to Many libraries around the country and also to MANY school libraries??
Any Slot Car magazines do this?...............ahhhhh NOPE!!!

Also, Many Model railroaders like to promote the hobby and can afford to give something back to a hobby they have themselves enjoyed for many years.

Many private people buy subscriptions for their local library or school.........Any slot car guys doing this???

Many Model railroaders go out of there way to do community projects like building a display for a museum or perhaps the childrens wing of a hospital..........Many donate items to schools that use Model railroads as a Learning experience doing class building projects............I guess what I am getting at is this.
I have my feet in both worlds and I can tell you that the world of Model railroading and the world of Slots are as different as night and day.

you would think that slotcars would be the more social hobby but in fact, Model railroading is far more social not to mention FAR MORE VISIBLE!!!!


So what do slots have for publications

Model Car Racing.............(a very good magazine but predominantly 1/32 scale with very little for HO folks)

& Scale Auto Racing ( predominantly an HO Organized Racing Newsletter & some 1/32 & 1/24 for the few commecial tracks left)
Since I dont have a clue who any of the people in this magazine are and the tracks are hundreds if not thousands of miles from me, why should I buy it??

There is very little content in it that will make my slot car experience BETTER........BUT, I do buy it...........why....for the Ads AND because even though it does very little for me, it does something good for a portion of the slot car hobbyists..........instead of buying 1 more car each year i buy a magazine............and then I take it and drop it off in somebodies lobby somewhere (dentist/doctor/wherever) cant hurt , right 

If there are any others Ive missed (other than manufacturers newsletters) Please tell me about them because they certainly have failed to promote themselves in a way that got my attention LOL


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## Montoya1 (May 14, 2004)

TGtycopro said:


> AHHHH WHAT?????????


A 7.5'' curves instead of using 6''s. Tough without being too mickey mouse.

No reason for the curves sizes to go up in 3'' increments.


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

Montoya1 said:


> A 7.5'' curves instead of using 6''s. Tough without being too mickey mouse.
> 
> No reason for the curves sizes to go up in 3'' increments.


 Economics. If you want to nest curves together, they have got to be incremented by the width of the track - in the case of HO, that's three inches. If you make a 7.5" curve and do not make other curves at 3" intervals, they are only good for two lane tracks; or, you are willing to accept the gap to the 12" curve.
I would say that the curve sizes are fine. If you don't like the 3", 6" or even 9", you don't have to use them. With Tomy now having a 12", 15" and 18", you can do a six laner without even going to the 9" curve.
If there was going to be a change in curves, my opinion would be for either 1/12th (30 degree) or 1/16th (22.5 degree) curves. Either way, you would need to produce more than one size initially to accomodate four or more lane tracks. The 1/16th would mesh more easily with existing 1/8 curves, but the 1/12th curves open up new possibilities.
These are the kinds of decisions that get to be real tough becaue you have to dump a lot of money into either project.

Joe


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## Montoya1 (May 14, 2004)

Grandcheapskate said:


> Economics. If you want to nest curves together, they have got to be incremented by the width of the track - in the case of HO, that's three inches. If you make a 7.5" curve and do not make other curves at 3" intervals, they are only good for two lane tracks; or, you are willing to accept the gap to the 12"


Of course I can only speak for myself, but I would buy 7.5'' & 10.5'' curves is somebody made them. I see GAR are planning to do one, so thats good.


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

Jim Norton said:


> What I can't understand is what benefit manufacturers receive when their track will not mate up with another manufacturer's track? Model railroading corrected this problem with track and rolling stock 50 years ago which no doubt has helped to promote the hobby.
> 
> Now, with Tyco track in limbo and Life-Like so limited........It would appear to be a good time to select one track design. Walther's should began to include Tomy track with their Life-Like sets (along w/ a tomy/Life-Like adapter) and end production of Life-Like track.
> 
> Standardization of track will grow the hobby. It will increase the interest of kids if they can easily combine their set with a buddy's to make something much more exciting and larger than a figure eight.


 As far as I can tell, there is no benefit to multiple track systems. If we could borrow Mr. Peabody's Wayback Machine, maybe we could change the course of track design at the beginning. Unfortunately, that train has left the station.
The problem right now is that there is a difference in slot width between Tyco and Tomy (I think Lifelike uses Tyco spacing). Some like the closer Tomy slots, others the equal spacing, still others don't think it matters. Lifelike would be better served doing exactly what you suggest, especially since it's design is the weakest of the three.
If adapters could be priced really low so you could buy a boatload of them for an affordable price, available as 3" pieces and made with undertrack terminal connections, they would serve two purposes. One would be for combining track styles, the other as a jumper track. Make it a 3.5" piece and you could combine them for a 7" straight. If they were that plentiful, combining track would not be as big an issue. You would still need to stay within track style during curves, but could convert almost anywhere if the adapter is small enough.
Thoughts on this?



Jim Norton said:


> Speaking of Racemaster's Long Beach set....This set should set the standard for future sets. What is so appealing is the huge size of this track. This has to be a selling point as today's homes are larger than 40 years ago. (1971 - 1,800 square feet.....2001 - 3,300 square feet). I just can't help from thinking that big, realistic sets with alternate smaller track plans is very marketable. Especially when compared to all the "spaghetti" sets of the past years. Now, if we could just get a four lane version of the Long Beach set!.


 As we have hit upon, if you're going to do a set, do it right. A four laner out of the box would be great because you could offer alternate two lane plans. Also, the use of a single crossover on each pair of lanes turns a pair of lanes into a single lane - a way to have a four lane setup and use it as a two laner if it's mostly you and a buddy.



Jim Norton said:


> History will record Joe's 18" curve as charting a new direction for HO slot racing. I first saw these on a website called Jay's Race Place and quickly bought 8. I could not believe these sweeping 18" radius tracks!


 My mom is so proud!
Actually, credit goes to Dan Esposito. It was his idea, his communication with the fabricator, handling of logistics and mostly his money. My legacy will be the Tyco stuff - for good or bad.

I have a couple other questions for you guys to chew on and toss about.

1. How do you feel about non-magnetic rail in straights? How about double steel rails in curves?
2. Would you buy track without the rail installed, so you could install your own?
3. Would you use adapter tracks throughout your layout? Would you combine track types to get the best of all manufacturers?
4. Do you prefer small holes in the track for nails, or would you prefer countersunk holes for screws like on the original MM track?
5. Do you like the white lines on Aurora MM track?

Thanks...Joe


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## vaBcHRog (Feb 19, 2003)

Joe,

1. How do you feel about non-magnetic rail in straights? How about double steel rails in curves?

Don't know it would depend on how it would effect TJETs and AFX


2. Would you buy track without the rail installed, so you could install your own?

No, But then I do not build tracks for HOPRA style racing I build them to model and Race.

3. Would you use adapter tracks throughout your layout? Would you combine track types to get the best of all manufacturers?

I have in the past but in the long run I prefer not to mix track anymore

4. Do you prefer small holes in the track for nails, or would you prefer countersunk holes for screws like on the original MM track?

Countersunk holes

5. Do you like the white lines on Aurora MM track?

Most of the time know. But if I was building a 2 lane City scape or Country lane style track I might want some. It is fairly easy to add your own white lines though but a bigger pain to remove them

Roger Corrie


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## Scafremon (Dec 11, 2006)

Grandcheapskate said:


> I have a couple other questions for you guys to chew on and toss about.
> 
> 1. How do you feel about non-magnetic rail in straights? How about double steel rails in curves?
> 2. Would you buy track without the rail installed, so you could install your own?
> ...


1 & 2. I'm too new to this hobby to know why these might benefit me, but I am anxious to learn how they might.
3. After buying my first Tomy SI to start my track, and then realizing I needed a bunch more track, I stayed with Tomy, even though I knew these adaptors were out there. I think the newbie to the hobby will do same thing - stay with one track. Now however, I would be much more open to using adaptor pieces if I built a new track, or redesigned my current layout, even if it was just to cut costs. I like your idea of adaptor/connector combo track pieces.
4. Even though I used screws, and had to countersink a gazillion track holes, I might go nails next time. Gene's track looks clean with just nail-heads, and I think 'Doba used nails also. 
5. I prefer no factory stripes - I kinda enjoy adding my own paint to the blank canvas of track.

Your mention of adding rails to track reminded me of another track piece idea.

Keeping in mind that I have never seen one of those 'flexible' track pieces, but have a feeling they did not work all so great, it would be neat if there was a piece of track that was slightly adjustable, not only in length, but side-to-side, to be used as the final piece in a layout. I think it would be cool if after designing a layout that works on paper, you could just start laying down track, without having to keep everything loose until you put in the final piece, and then having to adjust a bunch of track connections to equalize the inherent gaps from slightly out of spec pieces.


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## Montoya1 (May 14, 2004)

Grandcheapskate said:


> 1. How do you feel about non-magnetic rail in straights? How about double steel rails in curves?
> 2. Would you buy track without the rail installed, so you could install your own?
> 3. Would you use adapter tracks throughout your layout? Would you combine track types to get the best of all manufacturers?
> 4. Do you prefer small holes in the track for nails, or would you prefer countersunk holes for screws like on the original MM track?
> ...


1. Awesome! when you see a G-Jet fly past a P3E you just know that non magnetic straights would be awesome for magnet cars. You would need to end very long straights with 3'' or 6'' of normal track though.

3. No sweat if what it got me was worth it. certainly I shall be doing that with GAR.....


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## noddaz (Aug 6, 1999)

*Doesn't count...*



Montoya1 said:


> Of course I can only speak for myself, but I would buy 7.5'' & 10.5'' curves is somebody made them. I see GAR are planning to do one, so thats good.


Doesn't count..
GAR is 4 lane track that has a built in border....
Different animal altogether...

Scott


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## TurnNBurn (Mar 13, 2007)

My 2 cents...

1. How do you feel about non-magnetic rail in straights? How about double steel rails in curves?

Wouldn't purchase either, would rather have consistent depth single rail for consistency.

2. Would you buy track without the rail installed, so you could install your own?

Only if track and rail were DIRT cheap and the rail was similar to Tomy/Tyco, but then, I would probably route my own and install rail or buy a Bowman or Brystal track not railed and rail it myself.

3. Would you use adapter tracks throughout your layout? Would you combine track types to get the best of all manufacturers?

Nope, prefer rail height and lane spacing consistency - whether it's Tomy or Tyco. Also, one can always Franken-track pieces of track to make oddball track lengths or non-standard 1/4 or 1/8 curves. It's not that hard. I'm surprised more people don't do this. And, it's a great use for broken track or to experiment with those gazillion 9" rad 1/4 turn on.

4. Do you prefer small holes in the track for nails, or would you prefer countersunk holes for screws like on the original MM track?

Nail holes, my large track is siliconed down and my smaller track I'm countersinking and screwing down. Nail holes just gave me more options.

5. Do you like the white lines on Aurora MM track?

Nope. And I don't think the 1/32 guys like them on Artin or Carrera track - seems like some of those guys paint them over.

Steve


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## TGtycopro (Jun 1, 2006)

1. How do you feel about non-magnetic rail in straights? How about double steel rails in curves?

Now you are talking about a New Track System........and while it has an Intriguing sound to it, its one of those gotta try before you buy kinda things and that means a ton of money getting it into the publics hands to use....
Questiono you think it would sell over used Tyco track at 1/10th the price (available all day every day on Ebay)

2. Would you buy track without the rail installed, so you could install your own?

NOT going to work IMHO....handlaid track in the model railroad industry accounts for less than 1% of modelers.......most dont want to be bothered with even painting track let alone having to install rail & ties.....i think you'll find this a negative from all but those who would probobly do a routed track anyways............If you have to lay the rail, you may as well cut your own grooves and have Exactly the layout you want!!

3. Would you use adapter tracks throughout your layout? Would you combine track types to get the best of all manufacturers?

Perhaps if these could be had as sets and reasonable......again, the advantages have to be pretty substantial.......Alot of folks buy adapter tracks simply because it saves them Money..........they can buy inexpensive Used track to add to their set purchase.

4. Do you prefer small holes in the track for nails, or would you prefer countersunk holes for screws like on the original MM track?
Slots with clips........small slot on side of track..clip slips into slot and has a hole for screwing down along side........even better have it so the clip site are indented to give a flush profile......(well, if we are designing track, lets design it so we dont have to introduce fasteners into the actual track surface or in and around the tabs which can make things difficult...fasteners come loose or can otherwise possibly cause problems!! Best to have them away from the tracks surface and/or track connections.

5. Do you like the white lines on Aurora MM track?
ahhhhhh...OK sure...Why Not!! ( i'd probobly paint over them anyways  )

All track pieces should include tabs to recieve electrical Plug for feeders.....
All tracks of over 15" should include 2 sets 6" or so from each end..........
All power supplies should have plenty of Amperege and variable voltage ability...
All rail should be polished nickle silver for resistance to rust and instructions on care and cleaning Included with every package to eliminate somebody taking sandpaper to it.......Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Any new track system should include short adapters for hook up to Tomy/Tyco

Track should be flexible enough that if it is stepped on it doesnt break (pretty much this means some type of Polyethylene Plastic similar to scalextric Sport track)

OK Did I miss anything Joe?? :lol:


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## twolff (May 11, 2007)

1. How do you feel about non-magnetic rail in straights? How about double steel rails in curves?
Don't run mag cars, dosen't matter.

2. Would you buy track without the rail installed, so you could install your own?
If I though I could rail a track, I'd already have a routed track.

3. Would you use adapter tracks throughout your layout? Would you combine track types to get the best of all manufacturers?
When I got serious about a layout a couple of years ago, I already had a ton of LifeLike track and EVERYTHING I read said using adaptor track was abad idea. I went to Tomy, starting with an SI set and adding from there.

4. Do you prefer small holes in the track for nails, or would you prefer countersunk holes for screws like on the original MM track?
Small holes

5. Do you like the white lines on Aurora MM track?
Prefer no marking of any kind.


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## bobhch (Apr 22, 2007)

Hi my name is Bob and I am a Tomy slot car track aholic...I jumped on a bunch of those 18" curves when Joe made them. Thanks and run my track several times a week.

My kids race cars also and my Cousins kid just raced for the first time last week at our house. He loved them but, his parents said they didn't have the room for a track layout. I was in awe......awe.......................................I then said that slot cars were the most fun thing in the world as a kid in Nebraska Winter months. Shoveled snow to go buy more slot cars. Those were the days.

I would like to see single lane Tomy pieces...just throwing in my 2 cents because "YOU ASKED FOR IT!" *bob looks around the room and sees everyone staring at him* Single lane Tomy Track...what kinda of freak are you bob? lol Everyone should have a slot car roller coaster on their layout...right?...guys....right...oh dang!

Bob...zilla


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Grandcheapskate said:


> 1. How do you feel about non-magnetic rail in straights? How about double steel rails in curves?
> 2. Would you buy track without the rail installed, so you could install your own?
> 3. Would you use adapter tracks throughout your layout? Would you combine track types to get the best of all manufacturers?
> 4. Do you prefer small holes in the track for nails, or would you prefer countersunk holes for screws like on the original MM track?
> ...


1.

No, it doesn't matter for non-mag cars, and for mag cars you'd have a hard time getting a good "flow" on the track.
No, again the flow of the track is affected.
No to both, too inconsistant with what's out there. People don't like to rebuild their cars to the track. Hell most people bitch if they gotta tweak shoes.

2. Same as above, I'd do a routed track if I was gonna go through the hassle.

3. I absolutely despise adapters. Track widths, lane widths, track _heights_ even are all different. They look goofy in a layout, and are always a problem when racing.

4. Small holes for nails. You can countersink them, too, with a 1/8 dremel grinding ball chucked into a pin vise. See pic below.

5. No preference.


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

This may be a first - - - record the date!
It seems nearly all the replies to each question are generally the same. You guys are in agreement! This could foretell the end for us all.....
Just so you know, I had no immediate reason for asking those 5 questions, I was just curious.
It seems like non-magnetic rail, if combined with existing magnetic rail track, is out. So are double steel curves for added magnetic downforce.
Laying rail? No one wants a part of that (which is what I suspected).
Adapter tracks seem to be something to use only if it cannot be avoided.
Nails vs. screws? I guess the nail holes could stay in any case since they are nearly invisable when not used. I like TGTycoPro's idea for side clips. I would think that is something that could be retrofitted to existing molds. It would eliminate the need to have a countersunk hole.
Lines on the track. Seems that is also something best left to the individual to add.
If you haven't replied and have an opinion, go ahead and voice it. The lines are still open....

Thanks...Joe


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## Scafremon (Dec 11, 2006)

Oooh! Oooh! I want to re-answer the questions!

On the 'install your own rail question', I agree with the posts that said you might as well route your track if you are going to that extent. I really thought you might be thinking about a 'final piece expansion track' which would require that the rail be set afterwards.

Maybe I just need to Franken-track some pieces - had never thought about that before.

On the adaptor tracks, having never compared a piece of Tomy track to Tyco or Lifelike track in my own hands, if they did not match near perfectly in color or outside dimensions, I would not incorporate them.


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

Scafremon said:


> Oooh! Oooh! I want to re-answer the questions!
> 
> On the adaptor tracks, having never compared a piece of Tomy track to Tyco or Lifelike track in my own hands, if they did not match near perfectly in color or outside dimensions, I would not incorporate them.


 Sorry, no do-overs.
In addition to slot width, there is a slight difference in track height and track width between brands.

Joe


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## TGtycopro (Jun 1, 2006)

> In addition to slot width, there is a slight difference in track height and track width between brands.


Thats why they make Sandpaper :thumbsup: 



> if they did not match near perfectly in color


Ive never seen a racetrack with a consistent color that was not JUST resurfaced.........Thats why they make Paint!! :thumbsup: 

And why Alc/Ink weathering is SO very cool... :thumbsup: 

I would say Adapter tracks are a Pain In the Posterior Only if you are constantly having to build & Take Down your track.......For any type of Permanent or even Semi Permanent Track setup they do not have any Issues that cant be dealt with quite readily..............BUT............HO slots isfast becoming a dinosaur................If youve never driven a 1/32 Slotcar do yourself a favor and FIND a track somewhere..............Powerslides have never been this good in HO :wave:


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

TGtycopro said:


> BUT............HO slots isfast becoming a dinosaur


 Do other believe that HO is becoming a dinosaur?
There are many different personalities on this planet. Some like constant change, others like things to stay the same. Some like to be stimulated constantly, others like to sit down in a quiet spot and read a book. We all look at things differently. We all enjoy different things.
So it is with HO. Like many others, I grew up with HO. I packed it away for a lot of years, partly because of the challenges of growing up (still working on that), but also because slots disappeared from a lot of the places I used to see them. I remember a friend telling me a hobby shop was clearing out their T-Jet stock in the late 70s while I was in college. Just to elicit a groan from you guys, the price was 89 cents each. Even though I probably hadn't done anything with my cars for years, I rushed over and bought as much as I could. That made me go home and put the track back up - I just needed a nudge.
But for me, I like things to kind of stay the way they are. Once something changes, it is no longer what I grew to like. I may like it more, I may like it less - I may actually like it just the same. But it always has to retain that element which I grew to like.
I love HO, always have. For me, all it needs is a little tweaking. Better quality track, a little innovation, more variety and new bodies. I don't need any other bells and whistles. I don't need flashing lights, loud music or computer software for me to enjoy this hobby. I still love T-Jets and AFX cars more than most other chassis. Sure I can get cars that have blazing speed and magnets that will suck it to the Earth's core, but that's not what I like. A simple car that goes around a smooth track is what I'm looking for.
We talked earlier about how to interest the kids of today. If we believed that all kids required constant stimulation and electronic gadgets to get them excited, then how do you explain the popularity of the Harry Potter books? There are all types of kids. Granted, the majority of kids are no doubt much different than we were 30 or 40 years ago, but there are the kids who will take to something simple like slot car racing. Clearly not as many as 40 years ago, but hopefully enough.
It doesn't surprise me at all that someone related their experiences with kids at their racing club. The kids come in around 10-11 years old and are gone by 15 or 16. Some might stay, some may come back some day. But you still have a constant influx of new 10-11 year olds who you can hold for a good 5 years. If that pattern stays true, I don't think it's much different than what most of us did when we were that age. And now we are back. Maybe they'll come back too once the newness of video gaming starts to wear pretty thin.
I have never run 1/32nd cars and I'm sure it is a wonderful experience. Maybe if I did, I would come back to HO with some ideas on how to improve, yet retain, what I like so much about these little cars. My buddy was over the house the other day looking over the JL part of my collection. He likes 70s muscle cars, so he liked a lot of what he saw. I then showed him some 1/43rd stuff and he liked that better. It was bigger, more substantial. But that's how it is. We trade off size for the ability to have a large track.
I don't think HO is a dinosaur. Maybe it hasn't changed much, and maybe that is what we like about it. It is that little island of stability in a world which seems to be moving at a fast-forward pace.

Joe


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## Slott V (Feb 3, 2005)

*Mainstream is missing HO*

I think TGtycoPro has a valid comment. As far as marketing in the main stream, 1/32 is booming and now 1/43 is following up. I've seen less and less HO in stores around my area. Seems HO can only be found in larger Hobby Stores and the internet and doesn't have the marketing gusto out there any more. You see SCX, Scalextric and Carrera banners flying all over the place. Most hobby stores near me have giant cases of 1/32 cars. HO is pushed off at the end of an aisle or a rotating display with sky high mark ups. Says a lot for what the consumer is interested in and the wholesale deals the distributors are offering between the scales.

I was in Hobby Lobby and Target recently and decided to scope out what is available in HO slots at each place. You know what I found? NOTHING. That is surprising.

*Hobby Lobby:* No slot cars or sets on shelves at all. They used to carry LifeLike and Johnny Lightning.

*Target:* Used to carry Mattel/Tyco but no more. I was however surprised to find the new SCX 1/43 cars and sets in an aisle. Pretty cool looking.

*TRU: * A couple of old LifeLike sets on the bottom shelf. No individual cars. No accessories. TRU used to have lots of Tyco/Mattel slots and accessories.

If I didn't have so much HO stuff I would seriously look into investing in 1/32 stuff. I do have an old Revell set that is fun to play with now and then. I bought a Sunoco Camaro and an SCX F1 car a couple of years ago and it was a blast to run.


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## wm_brant (Nov 21, 2004)

I don't believe that HO is a dinosaur.

While HO is not as 'hot' as 1/32 is right now, but I think that is because 1/32 is going through a fad phase right now. The cars, while very nicely detailed, are fragile and expensive. The cars are getting more expensive, not less. 

The 1/32 digital systems are incompatible with each other, and remain at an early stage of their development. There is a future for digital, but not until a single standard is adopted by all companies. Don't believe me? How many technology products have survived when there are multiple competing standards? Damn few. Look at Betamax vs VHS, Windows vs everything else, CDs, USB drives -- the list goes on and on. It will be true for slot cars, too.

Another aspect is the size of the setups. Over on HOSlotCarRacing, there is a nice comparison of the size and cost differences between HO, 1/32 and 1/24 scale. Using the same layout for all three scales, he presents the cost and size differences (see Slot Car Scales). The base Tomy HO layout fits on a 4x8' sheet of plywood, and would cost $340 to build. An equivalent Scalextric Sport layout takes four times the room -- 8x16', and would cost $1040 to build. The equivalent in 1/24 scale (Carrera) takes 10x20' and costs $1260.

How many HO people have just a 4x8 track?

HO scale has several strengths:
1. Compact in size. A small track is small, and a large track can still fit into a normal-sized room.
2. Reasonably priced. I think some of the prices are a little high, but all in all, they are a bargain. 
3. Sturdy. How many people are running cars and track made back in the 60s?
4. The focus is on racing, not merely running pretty cars around an undersized track. You can build a challenging track that allows the cars to stretch their legs in a reasonable amount of room.
5. Trackside detailing. HO tracks can tap into more model railroading scenic materials, as while are HO scale trains, there are no 1/32 scale trains.

The detailing of HO cars is about to take a jump. Here is a thread on SCI that has pictures of an upcoming HO GT40 from Racemasters. There is nothing second-rate about this car.

1/24 and 1/32 racing came about at the dawn of slot racing because that was the size the cars had to be to put the motors of the day in them. Now, these scales are bigger than they need to be. My personal belief is that the future belongs to 1/43 and HO scales. 

-- Bill


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## TGtycopro (Jun 1, 2006)

Bill.......First of...HEY. good to see ya  

Second off...I take a little Issue with some of the statements made on that site although it is a most excellent HO site......Now, I wouldnt say that without qualifying Why so bear with me here OK

First off. he is comparing LIKE Layouts to Scale
HO in a 4 x 8 and 1/32 in an 8 x 16

This is PURE FOLLY.........HO cars run at a MUCH higher scale Speed than 1/32 cars which run at closer to true scale meaning comparing SAME size Layouts is not relevent..............STILL, That said I do agree that 1/32 is going to cost more.......Its just not going to be NEARLY what is stated.

A closer comparison could be had if you took that HO set and timed an average lap....then did the 1/32 to the same average lap speed. :thumbsup: 
My Opinion of course but I bet since you do race 1/32 you'll agree this would actually make more sense for a Pound for pound comparison of FUN.
Cost.......Probobly double rather than triple (assuming you buy ALL NEW!!! )

DIGITAL - Now you know I am going to defend digital but i cant argue the points youve made because HEY...you are right on the money!!

BUT......everything must start somewhere and every dog has his day so I will support Digital until something better comes along.......AND just to be clear on this.....2 companies now have Layouts that ANYBODYS cars can be used on with chip modification.
Scalextric (who did this right from the start)
NINCO - who was a late comer to digital being the last to introduce a set and they pretty much copied Scalextrics basic marketing plan word for word.....WHY??? Because it Worked..........It got them 70% of the digital Market overnight while maintaining their death grip on the overall marketshare in 1/32.
Ninco would have been foolish to do anything differently.
That said it sure doesnt say much for the ALSO RANS does it (which is why you now see SCX and Carrerra jumping into 1/43.......companies cant survive an a minimal market share without finding some other means of income)

Cars cost more but I will put Like car in 1/32 against Like car in HO anyday for survivability.............I CANT KILL THOSE LITTLE BOXTERS EVEN IF I TRIED!!!
I plunged a Renault F1 Alonso car off my track a scale 115 feet and it popped the nose cone off............thats it..no damage.........popped the cone back on and began racing...........Ive broken HO F1 cars Wings off with the same type plunge.

IF you are a Collector of cars and youve got to have every 1/32 scale car ever made.............YEP, you had better be a very wealthy man because they do not come cheap (at least the good ones dont) BUT really, how much more are they for what you get?
I can buy a plain jane Porsche Boxter or Audi TT all day for 25.00 per car (and these cars are among the fastest scalextric puts in a box....they scream!!!)
The last G+ car I bought was 2 years ago and it cost me almost 20 bucks (inc tax).........Digital chips cost more but a digital chip for every car isnt really neccessary nd with the newer ones with Plug in Modules, 1 chip can be swapped into several different cars.

Digital Does have a long ways to go but even DCC in model railroading did not get where it is overnight...........Will we ever see standards in Digital.......I believe eventually the manufacturers will figure it out.

Based on the conversation I had a while back with *Robert Schleicher * (author of all those books and Editor/Owner of Model Car Racing Magazine) over the digital situation in slots I understand he was pushing for standards right away but Each company thought their System was the best system and would blow everybody else away.............well........Scalextric Won that one hands down and while scaley has some room for improvement, we need to go through the phase where first we try, then we change..then we do what they did...then MAYBE everybody gets on board with a single overall Program.( I did say MAYBE , right?  )

For the record Heres Mr Schleichers email to me last July when I asked about What he had done to try and get manufacturers to pick a standard.

_*Todd,

Frankly, it is way too late for standards. All four major manufacturers of 
track are committed to their specific systems and there's no way I have been 
able to see to make any interchange with any other.

What did I do? Everything I could imagine. I talked to each of the four 
manufacturers, literally years before the products were introduced (wehen it 
was still possible to consider a standard), explaining just what you suggest 
(that a standard was a must and the history of model railroad digital was 
the nightmare they could expect for the folly of going it alone). At least 
one even had experience with that nightmare of no standards with model 
railroading. Each manufacturer, it seems, believes that no one would even 
consider buying another brand, so why bother with attempting to interchange. 
Unfortunately, even when one manufacturer was willing, the others chose to 
create their own versions of the digital universe. At this point, no 
pressure from any group is going to change their course.

Since the track and lane-changers are the essential ingredients for a model 
car racing track, and those are proprietary with each of the manufacturers, 
you'll have to choose. We have published pros and cons of each of the three 
existing systems and will do so whenever NINCO ships theirs as well. And, as 
we have published, there is a strong case to be made for each manufacturer's 
digital system. You will simply have to weigh the pros and cons and decide 
which one works best. Remember, however, that it is relatively easy to 
changeover from digital to conventional, but only if you modify the 
lane-changers internally and replace the digital controller/connector track 
with a conventional to suit the type of car.

Yes, there are some other digital alternatives for wood tracks but this 
hobby is (and will remain, as long as it does remain a hobby) 95-percent 
plastic for a variety of reasons. You might get a group to standardize on 
something for wood tracks, maybe even one of the existing brands, but only 
one track in 50 would be able to use it so it would only be a "standard" for 
a select few---the closest you are going to come to a "standard" will be the 
brand that outsells the rest so the "standard" will be a vote by the buyer. 
And, you can certainly believe, each of the four manufacturers is dead 
certain they will be that "standard". So, no standards now, none are likely 
in your or my lifetimes.*_


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## TGtycopro (Jun 1, 2006)

One last thing.....Please keep in Mind...I own HO cars, I Run HO cars and I still enjoy them and think they are fun (except you can have them Johnny lightnings, they wont even stay on a track....reminds me of...................NO, i take that back, T jets were far superior.........I love the look of the muscle cars i bought in JL ( about 15 of them) BUT.........by far the funnest time ive had with HO in the last few years is an HP7 chassis and a Die cast body conversion!!!! ( And I have a gentleman Here on this forum to thank for turning me on to those possibilities..........)

Will I ever part with my HO stuff.....not just NO.....HELL NO!!!
But, It will forever be the sunday afternoon rug layout a couple times a year rather than my day in day out Slot FIX!!!!


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

I am not a fan of the high speeds of HO magnet cars, but many people are. Again, we are a very diverse group.
For me, the speed of T-Jets and AFX are good, and the HP-7 is as fast as I'd want to go. I don't like mega-magnetic attraction (which is any traction magnet chassis that glues the car to the track) - in fact, I don't run any mega-magnetic cars on my MM layout since they just don't work too well.
Speeds in HO can be controlled and moderated. However, there is obviously a market for those who want to go as fast as possible. I've never seen an unlimited car, but my guess is I'd hate them. The good thing is that you can choose a slower chassis if that is your preference.
I sometimes see a photo of someone's track. Looks real nice and real long. Then they will state that a lap takes 5 seconds with some magnet or unlimited car. And I think to myself, "What a waste that a huge layout like that yields a 5 second lap. I'd want to enjoy that layout for a lot longer than that."
For me, the details on a body doesn't mean that much. It doesn't have to resemble the decaling of a real car. Give me a good looking model (car model, that is), and a nice paint job and I don't need stickers and decals. Some of my favorite cars are simply one color.
We have options in HO and we can make it almost anything we want.
Do you have fun with it? That's all that matters.

Joe


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## Scafremon (Dec 11, 2006)

TGtycopro said:


> A closer comparison could be had if you took that HO set and timed an average lap....then did the 1/32 to the same average lap speed. :thumbsup:
> My Opinion of course but I bet since you do race 1/32 you'll agree this would actually make more sense for a Pound for pound comparison of FUN.


I'm not sure that this is a good way to compare them either, but then again, I have never raced 1/32.

But, if my average lap time on my 70' per lane HO track is 7 seconds with mag cars, and the comparable 1/32 track for a 7 second lap is a figure 8 on a 4 x 8, I'm thinking my 4 long straights and umpteen curves might be more fun.

Granted, and as Joe mentioned, I am having more fun running a slower type car and pressing it to get 12 second laps. And I like that I have both options on the same track. How much fun is that 1/32 figure 8 going to be if it takes twice as long to get around?

Just asking. These larger scales are interesting to me for sure, but I can't lift any more 4x8 sheets of plywood to my garage ceiling when it comes time to store the track.


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## Crimnick (May 28, 2006)

Lightspeeders will bring a grin to your face...no matter who you are...

Our season starts at the end of this month...


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## TGtycopro (Jun 1, 2006)

> But, if my average lap time on my 70' per lane HO track is 7 seconds with mag cars, and the comparable 1/32 track for a 7 second lap is a figure 8 on a 4 x 8, I'm thinking my 4 long straights and umpteen curves might be more fun.


First off it would Still be bhasically the same layout, Not a Big twisty vs a figure 8.
second......if it takes you 7 seconds to do a lap on a 1/32 4x8 figure 8 in 1/32 you need to turn up the voltage and get OFF the kiddie setting  

Heres the comparison for you.....I run a 15' long 1/32 track that is 4' on one end wide and has a short l shape on the left...its got plenty of curves and 2 straights..longest 11'...Lane length is aprox 44' average lap times about 5.5 seconds....Fastest single lap ive ever run was 4.887 with one of my Porsche Boxters (like i said..they are awfully fast for an inexpensive 1/32 car)

2 weeks ago I built a rug track in HO...different configuration but aproximately the same number of curves...3 straights.
!st one about 18' long
second about 14' long ...third 11' long.......Lane length all total was right around 60' or aprox 35% longer than my 1/32 course
Average laps 4.35 seconds overall (i ran 12 cars (10 Nascar + 1 AuroraG+ F1 and a tyco Porsche 917...all box stock.....3 heats of 10 laps per car.
I dont know about fastest lap since it was timed for 10 laps.

So 1/32 runs 5.5 on 44' ........Area of track space 15' x 7'
and 1/64 runs 4.35 on about 60'....Area of track space 20' x 7' (obviously this could have been tightened up but i would have sacrificed that very long straightaway) All cars were magnet cars

Using these figures i'm pretty close on my estimate of double the cost rather than triple and 2/3 the space requirements indicated on the HO site page.

You can argue this logic.........Just like I can argue HIS logic.....to me the reality is lap lengths between the 2 can not be realistically compared without taking into consideration scale speeds

If I put a 40' straght dragstrip down in each side by side which Box Stock car will Win the drag race??
No Contest...the HO will drill a 1/32 car everytime and I MEAN DRILL IT!!!
The 1/32 car wont be half way.

Thats why I say you can not simply say this layout is this much and the same in 1/32 is 3 times higher because its simply not a fair comparison

IF you built that 3 times more expensive track you'd have WAY more fun (pound for pound) than you would in the same 4x8 HO though :thumbsup:

Now I do believe we have strayed from the initial INTENT of this thread however so as a final suggestion let me just say this Scaf.

YOU really NEED to go Race on a 1/32 track......You'd be Impressed....Theres a reason WHY its the hottest thing going in Slot car racing......Do yourself a favor and find out first hand WHY!!! You will have to actually Learn to drive these big ol beasts though......... :wave:


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

TGTycoPro,
What would your test results be if you used T-Jets or pancake AFX cars rather than inline magnet cars? Surely the lap times for HO would go way up.
I'm guessing it is hard to compare the two. You can run HO on different voltages. Obviously the higher the voltage, the faster the car will go. I don't know anything about 1/32nd, so let me ask two questions:

(1) Do they have traction magnets
(2) Do they all run at a standard voltage or can you vary the voltage

As I said, there are many types of HO chassis, although they probably break down into two classes - non-magnetic pancake (I include AFX magna-traction in this category since the downforce is minimal) and inline magnet. The speed differences are significant, and probably very significant even within the inline magnet class.

Getting back to track, let me ask another question that I have often wondered about. HO uses a thin rail while all the other scales (as far as I know) use a wide flat rail. Why is that? Would the wide flat rail work for HO and lessen the wear on the pickup shoes? Is thin rail used because of the tightness of the turns?

Thanks...Joe


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## wm_brant (Nov 21, 2004)

A lot of people in 1/32 scale think the 1/32 scale magnet cars are too fast and are not very interesting to drive. What they do is remove the magnets, add weight, and turn down the voltage.

The same works for HO cars. I built a routed HO-scale 'slider' track a few years ago, and while I did not like the 'slide guide', I did find that the cars were fun to drive without magnets as long as you lowered the voltage to around 10 volts. I did not try 12 volts like the G-Jets use, but it's in the right neighborhood.

Pieces of self-adhesive lead make good weights. Remove the magnets from the back pockets of the HO car, and fill the pockets with lead. Stick some lead on the front, making sure it does not interfere with the pick-ups or the front axle. Brass can work too, but it's less easy to work, and not quite as dense.

Driving a magnet-free car makes a track a lot more challenging, and lap times drop a lot, and as Tgtycopro points, that makes a track seem a lot longer. 

Just because a car comes with magnets, does not mean you need leave the magnets in.

Cars still too fast? Remove some weight, turn the power down more. Run with the stock rubber tires. Pretty soon you are down to T-Jet speeds.

While a HO plastic chassis magnet car is faster than a 1/32 plastic chassis magnet car, a 1/32 competition metal chassis non-magnet car is much faster than a HO magnet car. However, competition 1/32 cars do need a much larger track than anything you'll find in a home to take advantage of the speed.

In regards to track design, the key is shoot for is the number of track elements that you need to react to. A series of back-and-forth curves that you take at a constant speed counts as only one element. A straight that is too short to accelerate on does not count as a separate element. A straight that you can accelerate on, and then need to brake for at the end is better. 

The goal is to build a track that required a lot of manipulation of the controller. The more times you need to let up, brake, or accelerate in a single lap the better. 

If you had a really slow car, you could have a track consisting of a simple circle, that would take you 15 seconds to make a single lap. While that makes for a good long lap time, it makes for a boring car and track to drive. You want a car AND track combination that you need to drive, all the way around. However, you don't want to make the track too difficult to get around, or you will scare newbies off. A great track will find a line between too easy and too complex.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Joe --

A few posts back, you floated the idea of unrailed track. What you did not state, but I suspect to be true, is that the unrailed track + rail pieces would be cheaper than the railed track. To me, the question is how much would I save by buying the unrailed track?

-- Bill


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## wm_brant (Nov 21, 2004)

Joe --

I think we wrote our responses at the same time.

I think the reason for the thin rail in HO is historical; nobody could make a braid/wide flat rail combination work for HO, so they went to something that would work -- the raised rail and the hard pickup. However, a lot has changed since then.

I believe that the rail/hard pickup design is not particularly good -- we all know it has it's problems. I would like to see someone come out with scaled-down HO version of the wide/flat rails on the tracks, and braided pickups used by 1/43-1/24 scale cars. However, since that requires a) new track, and b) new cars, so I don't think it will happen soon. And, based on my experience with the slide-guide, I'm not crazy about that product. It only works with certain cars, and the wire used for the pickups did not last particularly long.

I believe that the inventor of the slide guide used to make routed tracks with magnetic braid in place of the rail -- raised to the height of the solid rail -- which worked with standard cars and standard pickups. I don't know how well it worked, but I would sure like to know.

-- Bill


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

wm_brant said:


> Joe --
> 
> I believe that the rail/hard pickup design is not particularly good -- we all know it has it's problems. I would like to see someone come out with scaled-down HO version of the wide/flat rails on the tracks, and braided pickups used by 1/43-1/24 scale cars. However, since that requires a) new track, and b) new cars, so I don't think it will happen soon. And, based on my experience with the slide-guide, I'm not crazy about that product. It only works with certain cars, and the wire used for the pickups did not last particularly long.
> 
> ...


Bill,
I'll try to address three different things.

(1) When I asked the question about track without rail, my intention was to see how many people would want to buy unrailed track (with the rail slot intact) and then lay their own rail to create a continuous rail track. I am guessing the track would cost less, but that was not the intent of the question. It was more to guage interest in that approach. I always though that having track with easily removal rail would be great.

(2) I believe Ed Bianchi is the inventor of the slide guide. I bought Ed's homemade video on track building and he did lay down braid on his routed track. He sunk the braid a little, but it was raised above the board surface.

(3) I don't know if you would need a new track system in order to accomodate wide, flat rail. You could probably make the track compatible with Tyco and Tomy, but it would look funny with two types of rail mixed in the layout. The questions really was will hard pickups work on wide, flat rail or do they need the thin rail because there's not enough downward pressure for them to work on a larger surface area.

Thanks...Joe


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## vaBcHRog (Feb 19, 2003)

Grandcheapskate said:


> Do other believe that HO is becoming a dinosaur?


 
Yep it is if you base it on whe is being sold in the retail outlets. It is dying. However everything comes in cycles After the 1/43rd market gets to look like the 1/32 Market where are they going to go to grow their market back to HO 

Whats old becomes new again.

Now how long will this take? Who knows

Roger Corrie


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

vaBcHRog said:


> Yep it is if you base it on whe is being sold in the retail outlets.


 Based on that, I never see 1/32nd in any retail stores, yet it is apparently thriving. And so far, the only 1/43rd I've seen are those $10 Artin and/or Fast Lane sets. Well, there is one $19.99 or $29.99 set, but that's it.
Now I know that SCX is putting a 1/43rd into Target stores, but as far as I can see, other than a couple Lifelike sets (both HO cars and trains) I don't see any electric slot car or trains sets/accessories in any retail (non-hobby) store.
I also notice that the last four Mattel sets were battery operated and all the Artin 1/43rd I see are also battery operated. Do you think manufacturers are shying away from electric toys because of the fear of lawsuits? Or is it simple economics - making a battery case is cheaper than making a wall wart?

Joe


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Overheard at a mass retailer purchasing dept. meeting:

Man 1: Hey guys, we've had a few customers asking about these old school things called HO slot cars, supposedly they're making a comeback.

Man 2: Have you checked into suppliers?

Man 1: Yes, they move a lot of the products, and with the MSRP we will see a great margin, even if we discount by 5 or 10 percent.

Man 2: What about competition?

Man 1: Well, it's an emerging market, albeit a bit small. No major retailers carry the stuff as of yet, and very few specialty shops seem to have interest in it.

Man 2: What about on the internet?

Man 1: A few of the larger online retailers advertise it, but again it's not in the stores.

Man 2: But how about ebay, does this product make it into the hands of wanna-be retailers working out of their basements?

Man 1: I dunno, fire up that PC and we'll have a look!

_<crickets>_

Man 2: UH....maybe they think we're called "Fools-R-Us"? NEXT!


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## Scafremon (Dec 11, 2006)

TGtycopro,

I'm sure one day soon here I will run a 1/32 car. There actually is 1/32 slot car place about 20 miles from me.

Greg's comparisons at hoslotcarracing may be off some, but for the newbie getting into slots, I think it gets the point across ok - more room and more money is needed for 1/32. If space and budget allows the larger scale, I don't think anyone would regret going that direction. 

Back to the topic:

Look what you started Joe!  

I'm glad you received a lot more input from members then just 'a larger curve please'. 

I guess the question for you know is: When can I order my Tyco/Tomy/LL compatible 3.5"- 24" straight with power terminals, and which can be converted into a curve of my linking, albeit with the rail I insert into it?

Jeff


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

Scafremon said:


> I guess the question for you know is: When can I order my Tyco/Tomy/LL compatible 3.5"- 24" straight with power terminals, and which can be converted into a curve of my linking, albeit with the rail I insert into it?
> 
> Jeff


 I should have that done by sometime tomorrow afternoon. I've got the morning slated for my other two projects: world peace and time travel.

Joe


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## TGtycopro (Jun 1, 2006)

> What would your test results be if you used T-Jets or pancake AFX cars rather than inline magnet cars? Surely the lap times for HO would go way up.


Yes they would Joe.....BUT they would go up for the 1/32 cars also if you remove the magnets.

Yes, you can use variable voltage with the 1/32 cars. I have a Pyramid PS26 for doing just that!!

Whatever you decide to do Joe, I do wish you well and am hopeful you achieve at least a modicrum of success.
Its the cottage industries that truly make ANY hobby flourish by filling the holes and gaps that the larger manufacturers feel are simply not worth their time.
Good Luck to you!!! :thumbsup:


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## SplitPoster (May 16, 2006)

Joe, Battery powered toys don't carry the same cautions, warnings (and laibility) as electric ones. Look at the labels on the outside of the packages, can't have any pretext of marketing electric toys to younger kids. (LOL remember wood burning kits?)


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## noddaz (Aug 6, 1999)

*Pssst*



Grandcheapskate said:


> I should have that done by sometime tomorrow afternoon. I've got the morning slated for my other two projects: world peace and time travel.
> 
> Joe


Pssst...
Do the time travel first....

Scott


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

TGtycopro said:


> Whatever you decide to do Joe, I do wish you well and am hopeful you achieve at least a modicrum of success.
> Its the cottage industries that truly make ANY hobby flourish by filling the holes and gaps that the larger manufacturers feel are simply not worth their time.
> Good Luck to you!!! :thumbsup:


 Thanks. And thanks to everyone for their opinions during this thread.
I was thinking today about the discussion we had during this thread about getting kids involved. I still think that is a key for this hobby, but I was also thinking that those of us who grew up with Aurora (and Tyco) as kids are probably in the range of late thirties to late fifties. That means, knock on wood, we still have another good 30-40 years if just the current group stays involved. That would be about the same amount of time that has passed since the heyday of slots in the 60s and 70s. A lot can be done in that amount of time.
I was also wondering about the viability of actual model motoring. As I understand it, Aurora first produced slot cars to be used as accessories to trains; hence all the city-like pieces such as the intersection with traffic light. However, soon kids took to racing the cars and slot car racing took off.
What ever happened to model motoring? Did it ever get used by train people as part of a layout? It it still used today? Would such a product be viable today?
Started a new project today - cold fusion.

Thanks...Joe


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## TGtycopro (Jun 1, 2006)

Joe, as to Model Motoring.

First off, Slot scales are Wrong for most cars (j/l may be an exception but I still believ they are not quite 1/87 scale)

When slot cars went away from 1/87th they LOST any opportunity with model trains...................SO, IF you think J/L is 1/87th and that its functional enough for basic intermixing into model trains you would need to find a way to market it as an F/X (special effects or Animation).

Keep in mind there are 2 types of Model Train Layouts.
Scale Model Trains & Tinplate
Scale Model railroading is the modeling of true scale equipment and scenery and while some will use animation, the type of animation Slot cars represents lends itself better to TinPlate or toylike layouts......REASON: SLOTS in roadways are Not realistic...never have been and never will be which is WHY it never really took off in the first place.

There will always be a few that will do this type thing (mix scale models and toylike scenery) But to make it work you really need mainstream.

Animation can be achieved without slots in a more realistic setting so I do not see anybody but a tinplate modeler doing this and tinplate scales are all wrong.
So, theres my opinion on why it didnt work and why it Wont work still.

But a recipe for success might be to get the right scale and make it work with dept 57 buildings and make Old time cars..30-50's maybe early sixties...Norman Rockwell type stuff...........Worked for Bachmann....thier On30 Line's the hottest thing onthe market in Model trains right now and has been for the last 5 years.


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## f1nutz (Mar 26, 2007)

Hi Joe
Great thread. Took me a while to read and catch up.
Regarding your question about flat shoes on flat rails I've tried this and it just doesn't work well. I think the narrow rail bites into the pickup shoes better and that is why it works. Narrow rail also fits around tight corners better and doesn't kink like the older scalextric track. I've also tried the slide guide which worked reasonably well but I also added a piece of soldering braid instead of just splaying the wire to make contact as suggested. Sort of a mini 1/32 setup and it worked well.
TGTycopro 
Having raced all scales of slots over the years I can honestly say I enjoy them all. I race mostly HO but have probably invested more in 1/32nd track and cars. The only drawback for me with 1/32nd is the fact that it takes up so much space. I can have a permanent table set up in a room in my house for the HO and have a challenging layout that I am not going to get bored of. To do the same thing in 1/32 takes up my whole basement. I love it too but can only do it from time to time because it can't stay there permanently. You also have to walk a lot further to reslot your cars. Not sure if that is an up or down side.


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## tjd241 (Jan 25, 2004)

*Not sure if this was covered....*

Sometimes as I clickety-clack through the tighter radius curves and even the larger sized ones, I wonder if anyone would/could/should ever make curves that are "whole"?? *This would be in addition * to the 1/8, 1/4, and 1/2 pieces now available. How about just making the whole curve? That would really smooth things out. Add those to some longer straight sections (again in addition to what is made now) and that would be a strong step forward no?? nd


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

tjd241 said:


> Sometimes as I clickety-clack through the tighter radius curves and even the larger sized ones, I wonder if anyone would/could/should ever make curves that are "whole"?? *This would be in addition * to the 1/8, 1/4, and 1/2 pieces now available. How about just making the whole curve? That would really smooth things out. Add those to some longer straight sections (again in addition to what is made now) and that would be a strong step forward no?? nd


 One piece curves? Never going to happen. After all, what is your definition of a "whole" curve?
Even if you had the resources, could you even list the possible permutations of curves? Not a chance.
As to longer straights, I covered that in another thread in this section. Check out "Longest Practical Straight". There may also be a post or two in this thread somewhere along the line.

Joe


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## vaBcHRog (Feb 19, 2003)

Grandcheapskate said:


> T
> I was also wondering about the viability of actual model motoring. As I understand it, Aurora first produced slot cars to be used as accessories to trains; hence all the city-like pieces such as the intersection with traffic light. However, soon kids took to racing the cars and slot car racing took off.
> What ever happened to model motoring? Did it ever get used by train people as part of a layout? It it still used today? Would such a product be viable today?
> Started a new project today - cold fusion.
> ...


Joe have you ever seen a scale HO 57 Chevy? You would need the microscale track as it is that narrow plus a whole new chassis etc. Even at their smallest most of the early Model Motoring cars were between 1/72 - 1/76th scale still way too big for true HO

Roger Corrie


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## rudykizuty (Aug 16, 2007)

Grandcheapskate said:


> One piece curves? Never going to happen. After all, what is your definition of a "whole" curve?
> Joe


Good point, Joe. While not likely to be made, I can see where 1/2 has it's virtues. But I'm the sure my old high school geometry teacher would say that a "whole" curve is a "circle".


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

rudykizuty said:


> Good point, Joe. While not likely to be made, I can see where 1/2 has it's virtues. But I'm the sure my old high school geometry teacher would say that a "whole" curve is a "circle".


 Well, it's not just 1/2 curves you would be talking about. What about an "S" curve? Increasing or decreasing radius turns?
When dealing with track making, you have to try to get the most use out of every mold you make. While you can use the same body mold to produce bodies of different colors and decos, you don't get that option with track. Sure, you could make different color track, but there's no market for it. Well, maybe a market for certain colors, like gray or sand, but you would need the whole line available in that color.
So, you are left with producing the smallest section of curve that is reasonable and the end user needs to combine these smaller pieces to make the curve they desire. 1/8th has basically become the default standard. It allows you to make 45 degree turns, or any increment thereafter. The tradeoff for this flexablity is multiple piece turns.
If all curves were 1/4, the layouts would be a lot more boring. With all 1/2 curves, you'd be talking about nothing but back and forth.
I would think any future curves will continue to be 1/8th, or even 1/16th should the size become large enough. I still like the idea of 1/12th curves (30 degrees), but that would take a lot of up front tooling investment, and you need to know that market is there.

Joe


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## SplitPoster (May 16, 2006)

Read the reply on actual model motoring, ie. with a train layout. Having displayed at a weekend long train show two years in a row, I can tell you in no uncertain terms that there is an interest in "model motoring." As I belong to a club with a permanent 50' long HO train layout, I can also tell you that there are numerous "too large" scale trucks and cars, and a few "too small" sitting on it as well. The only slot car stuff these guys get exposed to is in the Walthers catalog, and those cars and track look like toys. Would you expect to see seriously out of scale cars on a "museum quality" ho railroad diorama. No. Could you cars that are pretty close on home layouts, some of which are equally large and impressive? Sure. Having found old slot cars on train layouts, somebody else thought they worked just fine too. Trucks would be even better, not only smaller body scale on the same chassis, but the whole point of ho trains is simulating moving freight and passengers. Look at the brand new and awful looking Lionel Roadways and see what the manufacturer thinks people will buy to go with their train layout (it is O gauge). 

The 3 rail guys use black center rails if they want a realistic look, is that any more conspicuous than a slot in the road? Would it work for everybody? No, but nothing does, does it?

You know, in the train hobby guys don't mind laying down cork roadbed, painting and gluing ballast down - it's labor intensive. If track were made and marketed so that it could be painted/weathered/whatever to look like real road would it be popular with some? Yes. Market potential? Sure. Huge growth for HO slot cars? Not likely, with trains it seems like it's relatively few people spending a lot of money, not the other way around. But when kids run up to see the big layouts set up, they look at the trains, but the first thing they want to put their hands on is to run the cars up and down the little streets and roads. 



Remember, Aurora abandoned all pretense of marketing to go along with HO trains almost immediately, as the cars and sets were wildly popular on their own.


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## TGtycopro (Jun 1, 2006)

OK, whatever........Ive only been a scale model railroader for 40 years so I bow to your superior knowledge Alabama.

Sorry Joe, just didnt want you getting sucked into a lose/lose situation, better to have the odds in your favor!!


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## [email protected] (Jan 25, 2007)

Great thread alot of diverging and interesting opinions. The hardest part of building my track was the scenery. Pit, and infield buildings, marshals stands, race center, bleachers, grandstands et. I had to scour ebay and pay way to much in time and money sometimes for little return. My race center i built by hand. So give me buildings, pit crews, and all. Throw in long straight sections and 15 and 18 inch banked turns and i'm a happy camper. mj


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

TGtycopro said:


> Sorry Joe, just didnt want you getting sucked into a lose/lose situation, better to have the odds in your favor!!


 If I wanted the odds in my favor, the last thing I would do is invest in slot car related stuff thinking I'm going to buy that little island in the South Pacific so I could retire on the profits.  

Joe


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## [email protected] (Jan 25, 2007)

*Answers- two more suggestion*

Answers: 1- Maybe 2- NO 3- NO 4- Countersunk 5- No
How about flexible track borders that clip to the track?? hmmmm. mj

My two cents as well: I see that you are looking mostly at bigger ticket/investment ideas. There must be many things that we builders/customizers/racers need that are: 1- not readily avaliable 2- low price items that many people can afford 3- a more modest investment for you involving less risk and more reward. Maybe you can pose that as a poll thread. mj


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## TGtycopro (Jun 1, 2006)

Grandcheapskate said:


> If I wanted the odds in my favor, the last thing I would do is invest in slot car related stuff thinking I'm going to buy that little island in the South Pacific so I could retire on the profits.
> 
> Joe


Point taken...........although there are degree's of risk....
Theres no Power on that Island anyways Joe.........


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## sltCARsimpleton (Jun 7, 2008)

*just my 2 cents*

Well I definately would like to see a 3" crossing This would be top on my list of wishes. 2nd would be a flexible track (even if only slightly flexible) that had a solid surface (latex track? maybe, or impossible)..
btw I'm new here but have read much, it has inspired me and have started to build my own 12ft.x 3ft. 4 lane track, maybe I'll start a thread and post pics..


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## roffutt (Jun 30, 2006)

sltCARsimpleton said:


> Well I definately would like to see a 3" crossing This would be top on my list of wishes. 2nd would be a flexible track (even if only slightly flexible) that had a solid surface (latex track? maybe, or impossible)..
> btw I'm new here but have read much, it has inspired me and have started to build my own 12ft.x 3ft. 4 lane track, maybe I'll start a thread and post pics..



Welcome sltCARsimpleton! 

Please do keep us informed in your build.. might inspire someone else to join our forum and contribute someday.. 

-Robbie


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## resinmonger (Mar 5, 2008)

*Getting "Real"*

Check out Ragnar's posts of his 1/32nd scale Arlington International Raceway:

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=217419

This series of posts shows where 1/32 has a _real_ edge on 1/64. 1/32 has readily available 1/16th turns, aprons, figures, buildings, and retaining walls/multi-level guard rails. One can build a _realistic_ looking track like Ragnar's with off the shelf items.

Of the items noted above, only the 1/16th turns are track system dependent. Aprons, figures, buildings, and wall/rails could all be made without regard to track system. I would like to add all of the items to my layout and kids coming in could make a more realistic track with these items as well - they work even for "on the rug" layouts.

Unlike 1/32, the 1/64 manufacturers have ignored this area. It would seem to be an open niche for one to invest in. The figures and buildings could also appeal to 1/64 die cast collectors as well if they want to display their best stuff in diorama settings. This is an area where copying what Scaley has done would work well in 1/64.


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## ScottD961 (Jan 31, 2008)

ideally what I would like to see is Tomy track that already comes as a four lane, in sectional peices. I do not want to install the rails my self and do not want double rails in corners. I would prefer small counter sunk holes and no stripes or lines. Also a pit lane feature would be great sinse I am dreaming.


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## dlw (Aug 17, 1999)

Since it seems Tomy track doesn't come perfectly straight, 4-lane sections look like a good idea, Joe. Lots of people are making layouts, and if you can make them straighter than the Tomy factory, you could have something here. Maybe even sell 6-lane sections, also. By offering both 4 and 6 lane sections opens opportunities of sales to hobby shops who'd want a layout, but don't have the money to invest in routed track.


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

I can assure you that there will be no more money invested in Tomy compatible track, at least by me or anyone I know. The big up front cost to producing track is the mold. You hope to recoup that cost in your first run and then make some money on subsequent runs. It's a very expensive process for people who do not do this as a business.

When Racemasters decided to "copy" our 18" curve, it made our mold worthless. We could never compete price wise with Tomy and that was not our intention. We wanted to contribute something to the hobby, not compete. It's unfortunate that with so many other possible track pieces/accessories that Tomy could have produced, they decided to copy something that was already available. Luckily, we sold enough of the curves to recoup our investment, but I will not take that chance again. If you want more track options for Tomy, you'll need to hope they produce them.

I can tell you that we are looking at the possibility of making something quite exciting compatible with Tyco/Mattel. If the manufacturing process that we envision can actually work, one of the pieces of track high on most everyone's wish list may become a reality. However, there's a lot to consider before any action is taken, not the least of which is the cost of producion now that oil is so high.

I can say that any new Tyco/Mattel compatible track will not have the slot flares or the 90 degree bend in the rail. If and when there ever needs to be another run of the 6" and 15" curves, the molds will be modified to incorporate these changes. The removal of the flares in the slot may cause some issues with older pieces (some filing may be becessary), but in the long run I believe these changes will make the basic Tyco/Mattel design the plastic track leader.

Of course, if Mattel actually awakened from it's hibernation and did start to produce track pieces we have already done, I would simply take my bat and ball, go home and leave the track part of the hobby to the big boys.

Joe


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## ScottD961 (Jan 31, 2008)

While we are all talking about this ( and I did go all the way back to the begining of this thread) I have a question. A lot of you said that you would prefer a nail hole over a counter sunk screw hole. I am curious as to why? I was in the building trades years ago and did it on the side for a few years as well. I have repaired sheet rock walls in many homes and I will tell you that a house ,settling and being exposed to cold and hot temps will make those nails pop in the sheetrock and it was the first thing I always had to fix in both new and old homes , this is why they now make sheetrock screws. I was thinking a small screw headed screw would hold the track secured better than nails and would be flush as well. Screws would keep it from moving side to side or horizontally. Nails on the other hand Would eventually loosen and allow movement right? I know alot of you heat the screw head and and this allows the track to "pop" up around the screw head making it flush but again wouldn't this leave the track peice even more loose as it expands and contracts? Not trying to start a controversy here just very curious.


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## blubyu (May 4, 2008)

Right on Scott!


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## ScottD961 (Jan 31, 2008)

Blubyu do you understand what I am saying then? I'm thinking small screws are better , right ?


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## blubyu (May 4, 2008)

I would rather use small brass screw or something non-magnetic for sure,I did when my track was inside the house. Now as it sits out in the garage I let it float inside the masonite due to the temp swings. I hear you on the nails and drywall!


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## ScottD961 (Jan 31, 2008)

Bubyu , you know what? Now that you mention the small brass screws That is EXACTLY what my father used when he put our original Model motoring track together and he used those to secure it to the plywood base. Funny thing . That track sat unused for @ 15 years in the basement where it was exposed to temp. differences. When I brought it up I put a new power supply to it polished the rails and the track WORKED !
Oh yeah fixing nail pops can be a bummer on sheetrock, sometimes it would look like I shot the walls with joint compound when I was done because of all the filling that needed to be done.


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## blubyu (May 4, 2008)

Ended up skimming my walls to avoid the smooth spots.


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## Dyno Dom (May 26, 2007)

I originally tried small brads on my layout. The track pcs.moved vertically as brads loosened.  I counter-sunk each track pc., drilled starter holes w/mini hand drill & 
secured with #1 X half-inch counter sunk screws. ( approx- 585 ) A bit of extra work,
but definitely the way to go!  Don't over tighten screws, to allow for expansion of track pieces. :thumbsup:


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

Joe,
Is their any chance of you making a custom track layout? I mean, with the quality issuse already out there (check out the 'filling track gaps' thread)and chance of big manufacturers stealing your ideas, couple that with the fact that anyone who knows how to make a good track is back ordered, why wouldn't you want to? My idea is, prefab four lane 4x8 or 4x16 layouts. Affordable track pieces compatible to that size. Something that any dad could go down to home depot and buy a couple of sheets of plywood to mount it on. Make a banked layout. People want to see Nascar in their garage/basement. I would by one. I think it would be a step beyond anything out there. People all over town are dropping $200 - $250 bucks for one of these 1/32 setups. Why not hit that market? Can it be done for that price? If its affordable, easy to assemble, and durable, it will be traded on ebay for years to come.
!!!!!!!!!!!! How about bringing the old Tjet track back?
I agree with the accessories too. I've spent a ton of time looking to realistic stuff for my layout. It sure would be nise just to go to the shop or get online and pick up some neat stuff when I wanted it.

Rich

www.myspace.com/northtexasslotcars


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

NTxSlotCars said:


> Joe,
> Is their any chance of you making a custom track layout? I mean, with the quality issuse already out there (check out the 'filling track gaps' thread)and chance of big manufacturers stealing your ideas, couple that with the fact that anyone who knows how to make a good track is back ordered, why wouldn't you want to?
> 
> Rich


Rich,
Not a chance. It took a LOT of money to get track made a couple years ago; it probably takes a WHOLE LOT more now that the price of oil has skyrocketed and the dollar has dropped. Plus I am still sitting on quite a bit of inventory for the Tyco/Mattel track.

To do as you suggest would take someone with the ability to put up a lot of up front money, have available storage space and then some way to market the track outside of our little community.

Just as an aside, one of my friends got me a ticket for the Friday session of the Pocono 500 a few weeks back. As I walked the grounds that day, I couldn't help but think - "Wouldn't this be a great place to showcase and sell slot cars?".

Joe


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## Montoya1 (May 14, 2004)

The fact you still have Tyco pieces to sell (but not Tomy?) rather suggests it would not be a good idea making more. Work with Racemasters, maybe there are some pieces for their system you can make without getting your fingers burnt.


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

Montoya1 said:


> The fact you still have Tyco pieces to sell (but not Tomy?) rather suggests it would not be a good idea making more. Work with Racemasters, maybe there are some pieces for their system you can make without getting your fingers burnt.


 There's a couple answers to this. I think the Tomy compatible 18" curve was a success because it was (a) Tomy compatible, (b) the first HO 18" curve and therefore unique, and (c) Tomy is still making large sets which instills confidence in staying with that track system.

The Tyco/Mattel 6" and 15" curves are not unique to the HO world, but were produced to address what I considered a shortcoming in Tyco/Mattel offerings. Because I made two different pieces, I had twice the inventory of the Tomy curves. I think the reasons for the slow sales on the Tyco/Mattel front are two fold - (a) Mattel isn't producing any quality HO products, which does not instill confidence, and (b) the word has not really gotten out that these pieces exist.

And I think both suffer from the fact that slot cars are not prevalent in retail stores.

Over the past half year, I have sold little of either the Tyco or Tomy track. A large part of that is the passive way I am selling; I am not going out and aggressively marketing the track. At shows, almost no one asks for track.

Track seems to be a tough sell. You really need some deep pockets, good marketing and a long time horizon to make it work.

If I were to make a new track system, I think I might go with 2'x2' sections that you put together to make any size layout you want. Along the lines of the S-Track system described on Greg Braun's website.

Joe


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## dlw (Aug 17, 1999)

It's been brought up before, but how about 4-lane sections? Tomy track seems to be notorious for having gap appear when making multi-lane layouts. 4-lane pieces could eliminate that problem.


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## Montoya1 (May 14, 2004)

A four lane curve for Tomy with a 24'' outer would be nice, but I doubt it would sell enough.


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

Most custom track builders require a down payment, and they're still back ordered. 4 lane Tomy compatible stuff would be neat too. A 48" outer would be great too. A 4 lane Tomy compatible banked curve with a 48" outer would just freakin be awsome.

Rich

www.myspace.com/northtexasslotcars


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

I've mentioned it before (maybe even earlier in this thread), but I'll do so again.

Our track building hobby community is pretty small, so you are starting with a small customer base. If you produce 4 lane pieces, you are only going to sell to a sector of that small market (those with 4 or 8 lane layouts). That's a tough thing to overcome.

Banked curves also only appeal to a subset of that small community. Plus, even those who use them only need a couple per layout. If you can't move the flat curves (which are used more often than banked curves), how will you sell enough banked curves?

Joe


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## Dslot (Sep 2, 2007)

*Think small ... or think BIG.*

Joe,
Just make the little doodadders that would fit between the various radii of Tomy track to eliminate the trench and the futzing around with putty and plastic strip, and make the geometry work out.

Or make a big equivalent of the T-jet chassis dewarping jig for T's 15" straights.

Or best of all, buy up the license and the old dies for Atlas track and tool up for some new radii, new straight lengths, and a lot of adapter sections. (One of these days I'll get around to buying some Atlas track on e-Bay, just to see if it's as smooth as I've heard).

-- D


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

Dslot said:


> Joe,
> 
> Or best of all, buy up the license and the old dies for Atlas track and tool up for some new radii, new straight lengths, and a lot of adapter sections. (One of these days I'll get around to buying some Atlas track on e-Bay, just to see if it's as smooth as I've heard).
> 
> -- D


 I have only seen one picture of Atlas track, but it looked to be a good design.

I believe it would be foolhardy for anyone to come out with a new plastic track design unless, by some amazing circumstance, our hobby gets as popular as it was in the 1960s and early 1970s (or someone wins the multi-million dollar lottery and wants to live the dream). For no matter how well you design it, most existing customers aren't going to dump their existing inventory and our hobby is just not mainstream enough to provide the necessary customer base.

However, in my experiance I have learned a few basic characteristics any HO track design requires:

1) Quality. Track pieces need to be made to tighter tolerances than we see from Tyco or Tomy.

2) Good electricals. Find the best method for connecting the rails. Maybe take a page from the 1/32nd tracks.

3) Tight connections. The pieces need to snap together tightly and stay together.

4) No slot flare. My biggest complaint about Tyco/Mattel track is the flare at the end of the slot. Get rid of it.

5) Undertrack screw connections for wires.

6) Straight rail ends. No "Z" or 90 degree bend in the rail.

7) Countersunk holes for screws, along with plugs which could be put into the holes to cover them up.

8) Deep slot depth.

9) Provisions for borders.

10) Four lane pieces right from the start. With the addition of a single crossover piece, a 4 lane track could be converted to a two laner for those who only want a two lane track.

11) Magnetic rail only for the curves????? 


My wish list would be:

1) Slot sleeves. The track would be designed so that a flexible sleeve could be inserted into the slot, thereby giving you a continuous slot track. This would eliminate what I consider to be the biggest problem with plastic track - the guide pin hitting or getting stuck in the track joint. There could also be different size sleeves with different inside diameters, thereby allowing for different width slots.

2) The possibility of having easily removable rail; and the use of both magnetic and non-magnetic rail. This would allow for you to rail your own layout - continuous rail. Basically, you could buy the track without rail and just insert the rail yourself. Track would be available railed and unrailed.

I'm sure there's more, but it's getting late and it's been a long day.

Thanks...Joe


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## oddrods (Feb 6, 2007)

" No slot flare. My biggest complaint about Tyco/Mattel track is the flare at the end of the slot. Get rid of it."


What's the problem with the "flaired slots"?


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

oddrods said:


> What's the problem with the "flaired slots"?


 Read through this thread which I started a few months back...

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=210466

As the warmer weather has arrived, I've spent less time with the track so I haven't updated this thread in a while. But everything there is still valid.

Joe


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## oddrods (Feb 6, 2007)

Thanks for the link. It was quite the read. I run Tomy myself and had very few issues. I should have taken off the locking tabs as that was by far the biggest problem. The slots were a bit noisy but I ran various grades of sandpaper through them at the problem areas and that quieted them up quite a bit. I also silver soldered all the rails and smoothed them up with a file and then a stone and my rails are very smooth. My buddy Bob Niswander has a decent sized Tyco 4 laner that was treated in the same way. It's fairly quiet and runs smooth in both directions. It was a little bit of work but not too bad. Of course now that the rails are soldered the track is perminent but thats the price one has to pay for smooth sectional track. My next track will probably be another Tomy track { The international or 4 way split} as I think it's the most affordable way to get a large quantity of track with other than 9"curves. Or I just might go with routing my own. Good luck in you endevors.


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## oddrods (Feb 6, 2007)

Just another thought on the slot issues..... What if the slots were manufactured with a slight pinched section at the end of each piece and supplied with a sanding tool to open the slot up after the track was assembled? Being that it seems that you are marketing to the more seasoned hobbiest this would be only a minor step in setting up a track. I can't think of a single thing to get consistant rail height easy. Just my .02 Rob


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## Dslot (Sep 2, 2007)

*Extruded Track????*

Joe,
Having gone back and read this whole thread, I find that one product generated actual enthusiasm - the long continuous straight piece. Unfortunately an injection-molded 30+" straight is a production and shipping nightmare, and essentially impractical. But when people say they would rip out their existing straightaways to re-lay with longer continuous track, that has to grab the attention of someone hoping to market a product.

Imagine a 34" piece of plastic roadway, with grooves for slots and rails, square ended, sold along with two 36" pieces of separate rail, and two injection-molded one-inch end-pieces with all the right tabs and prongs for your favorite brand of track plus easy power connections on the underside. The ends of the rail-pieces of course have the proper squiggles for the brand of track the end-pieces connect to. The customer puts down the three plastic pieces, and pops or glues the two metal rails in for an instant long, smooth straightaway.

But the 34" main section is not _molded_, it is _*extruded*_. 
*Advantages:*
-- Much lower tooling cost than injection molding,
-- Lower setup cost for each production run, meaning smaller runs are practical (maybe).
-- Infinite number of lengths available just by adjusting the cutter. Want a 54" continuous straight? How 'bout a custom 108" piece? Noooo problem.
-- Could be semiflexible, so could be packaged rolled up into a compact coil, as could the rail pieces. Could even be laid as a kind of flex track, but with limited curvability. Could also be vertically curved for smooth grade transitions, gentle _flugplatz_ humps, etc. (depending on the willingness of the rail).
-- Could be available with magnetic or non-mag rail.
-- Just the end pieces, back to back, with short rail segments, form a short terminal track section - another product at no additional cost.

*Downsides:*
-- The customer has to put in the rail. If it's a simple strip, he may have to glue it in. If it's got, say, small flanges on the bottom, it may just be able to thread or snap into the extruded plastic roadway.

-- If the customer wants nail holes, he has to drill them (or maybe the stuff is soft enough to drive nails directly through).

-- I'm not sure if there's a way to get texture on the top surface - perhaps passing thru a heat-stamping textured roller or a texture spray applicator after extrusion. Or maybe the customer sprays the top with a mild-texture paint made for the material, and available from the maker at a prodigious (but fair) markup, or he just puts up with a smoother surface. You can extrude stuff that has a grippy feel, but actual texture -- _that_ I'm not so sure about.

-- The end pieces still require injection-molding dies. But they're small and simple - and possibly the dies you've already bought (for your Tomy and Tyco curves) could be cheaply reworked to reclaim some of that investment.

I'm not knowledgeable enough about the extrusion process to say what's possible and cost-effective, but it might be worth looking into.
Best of luck. I'd like to see you get a product out there that would help the hobby, and make a decent return with a minimum of outlay and headaches. Maybe this suggestion has possibilities.

-- D


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## Dslot (Sep 2, 2007)

*More Extruded Track Benefits*

Another possible advantage to the extruded-track straights: 
Proof of concept for other products.

The idea of "rail-it-yourself" track got a bad reception when you proposed it earlier in the thread. If the extruded straights show that the railing process is easy, people who use or see them may be more favorably inclined toward rail-less (molded) trackbed sections - just snap the sections together and insert continuous lengths of rail and even lengths of extruded slot-channel material (available in black, grey or lane colors, naturally). They might more easily see the system's great potential - it could have the flexibility and most of the ease of sectional track, with maybe 90% of the smoothness of routed track (I know, there'd still be some wheel-bounce at the joints, but no problems with the pin or pickups).

Actually I had trouble _believing_ that multiple people said if they had to insert the rail, they'd just go ahead and rout the track. :freak: Which seems to me a bit like saying, "If I've got to add fluid, I might as well go ahead and rebuild the transmission." But maybe I've just got a case of routerphobia.

-- D


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

DSlot,
We are actually (casually) already looking at doing long straights by extruding them (all the great minds think alike). We are in the very early stages of trying to determine whether the process would work and what the costs would be. I'm thinking the price of oil may put a damper on any reasonable production costs.

The only issue with what you proposed is that Tomy/Aurora has a different lane spacing than Tyco/Mattel/Lifelike. Therefore you could not use the same extruded piece of track for all track systems, unless the "adapters" which connect at each end of the straight move the slots to the correct width to connect to the manufacturer's track. The end pieces would probably have to be closer to 2" long in order to gradually bring the slots to the correct width.

But the idea is a good one if it can be done.

Joe


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## Jim Norton (Jun 29, 2007)

*Speciality tracks...Creating a market*

There are so many desirable track pieces which could be manufactured. But, we hear the argument that only a few people would buy a 30" straight or a 48" radius bank curve set leaving a warehouse full.

One way these speciality tracks could cover the cost of production is by including them in slot car sets. If you are Racemasters, you have a huge market through set sells to move new track designs. If you are a small manufacturer of individual track pieces the idea would not work.

I would love to see a 45" and 48" radius bank turn. I and many others would pay to have two such banks for a 4 lane. Our purchases, however, would not justify the cost of production. But if these track pieces were produced for a set and at Christmas time...It would be a safe bet that set sales would support the creation of such new track pieces.

If you are a collector, a Dad or a racer it would be hard to resist something on the scale of Racemaster's Long Beach set but with four lanes, a Nascar theme and bank turns barely fitting on a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood.

There are so many track possibilities out there. Inclusion in 5,000 sets might be a mechanism to offer some of these. I would like a 21" radius squeeze track requiring 2 pieces! 

Jim Norton
Huntsville, Alabama


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