# Sector timing . . . ?



## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)

Do any slot car race programs do sector timing? Split the lap into three sectors with the sum total of all three sectors being the total lap time?

Would be neat to see where you are getting beat on the track.

Just thinking out loud. :freak:


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## AcesFull (Jan 6, 2008)

1976Cordoba said:


> Do any slot car race programs do sector timing? Split the lap into three sectors with the sum total of all three sectors being the total lap time?
> 
> Would be neat to see where you are getting beat on the track.
> 
> Just thinking out loud. :freak:



That would be pretty sweet. I would also be interested in one of those towers indicating position using the racecar's number. Ideas like these would require advanced software though. Mechanically, it's simple, but the software I imagine could be difficult, for me at least.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

I'd like to have sensors every foot. Better yet, make the entire track out of the same technology used for touch pads on notebook PCs. This would give you continuous tracking. I know, this is pushing it.

The sensor per foot timing and tracking requirement could easily be done with a low end PLC, maybe even a micro PLC depending upon its I/O capacity. Most of these have the ability to communicate with a supervisory PC acting as a user interface, or human machine interface (HMI). The mechanical connection of the sensors would be tedious but not overly expensive. 

In my mind the ideal race management system would have all of the real time functions in a headless data acquisition server (like a PLC, microcontroller, or single board computer) and all of the race management and archival functions in a separate PC. Using a PC for both is always a compromise situation. Regardless of the performance of the PC, dual core, quad core, whatever, no consumer OS is even designed, much less optimized, for real time data acquisition and control.

Currently, TrackMate comes a little closer to the ideal than anything out there, but its interface board isn't doing a whole heck of a lot. It probably serves more as a license key than anything functional. If the TrikTrax people had added a PC interface to their unit they could have extended the lifetime of their product by making it a peripheral for a PC based race management system. It does timing and counting very well.


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## rudykizuty (Aug 16, 2007)

Sorry for straying off topic a bit, but speaking of TrikTrax, are they out of business? Does anyone know if their units can still be obtained anywhere? I always liiked the way their units looked in the photos I have seen. 

Just curious


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## noddaz (Aug 6, 1999)

*Sector timing...*

I think that sector timing would be cool...
I imagine that it could be done by using a separate computer (with separate switches) to time the sections you wanted.

Scott


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## Dslot (Sep 2, 2007)

AfxToo said:


> I'd like to have sensors every foot. Better yet, make the entire track out of the same technology used for touch pads on notebook PCs. This would give you continuous tracking. ... The mechanical connection of the sensors would be tedious but not overly expensive.


Mechanical sensors, AfxToo? Touch sensors? Egad, dude! How very Last Century is that? Enter the now-a-go-go digital age, how 'bout it?

I see invisible index marks on the track every centimeter or two - invisible to you and me, but not to the UV-sensitive camera watching the layout and sending digital video info to the computer which simply recalculates when each mark was eclipsed by a car-nose and adds it to the database, displaying the most recent results on a course-map on the monitor. You can call up any lap and see exactly how it timed out. 

Of course, the typical layout-room ceiling is not high enough to allow the camera to see the layout without substantial parallax errors, so we have to borrow a bit of 17th Century technology to increase the effective focal distance, so the camera can see essentially flat-on.








(I guess you _could_ program a parallax correction into the software, but it wouldn't be as much fun). 

Let us see the results when you start to build it, Doba.

-- D


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## Slott V (Feb 3, 2005)

Wow now *that* is thinking out of the box.


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## Slott V (Feb 3, 2005)

*HO Tech*

Everything discussed here is do-able. 1:1 racing uses transducers in the cars to pick up signals in the track and the cars performance is recorded to Excel sheets at various points around the track. With today's miniaturization of electronic components one would think you could do the same in HO scale.

D- you're not far off either. There is web cam technology out today that sees movement in the camera view and can activate outside source controls from hot spots in the viewing range. 1:32 guys are already using this technology for lap timing, pit stop monitoring and more. Theoretically you could time lap segments this way but you'd have to be a wizz at the software coding to identify the separate segments in the recorded data.

Check this out:

http://users.skynet.be/bk274532/webcam_anglais.html

http://www.zonetrigger.com/


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## Dslot (Sep 2, 2007)

*Whoa!!! We're Living in the Future!*



Slott V said:


> Check this out:
> http://users.skynet.be/bk274532/webcam_anglais.html
> http://www.zonetrigger.com/


Hokey Smokes, Bullwinkle! I had figured there would probably be off-the-shelf software and hardware aimed at the scientific-lab market for precise analysis of motion, that could be adapted to slot car use, but I never thought digital-image motion-timing was already that close to home! (Almost sorry I spent that $4 on reed switches).

Thanks, Slott V.
-- D


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## Slott V (Feb 3, 2005)

LOL. I think retail stores have been using this technology for a while now with their in-store security cameras. They can outline merchandise in the view of the camera and if something moves off the shelf it alerts the sleeping security guard to wake up and watch the shopper.


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Slott and Dslot (lol, had to use them together)- Slottrak has had webcam input capability via zonetrigger for some time already.

:thumbsup:


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

I like it. I'm very intrigued by the web cam based system. I admit that I had not even considered the optical tracking approach, figuring it would be cost prohibitive. But the web cam based counter system seems to imply otherwise at least for a basic lap counting/timing solution. If the web cam solution could be adapted to recognize individual cars and not just presence sensing then I would be even more impressed. I think this would be doable by adding a learning feature to the detection system and software. 

I'm going to have to get me one of those. In addition to lap counting I've always wanted to have a system that detects crashes and lights a light on the track wall in the vicinity of where the wreck occurred, to both alert the marshal and help other drivers know what's going on. 

I'm liking the whole course tracker too. I think the aperture limitations could be better overcome by using an array of cameras rather than a fancy set of optics.


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## Dslot (Sep 2, 2007)

AfxToo said:


> ...I'm liking the whole course tracker too. I think the aperture limitations could be better overcome by using an array of cameras rather than a fancy set of optics.


Awwww. Sir Isaac's spirit will be so disappointed...

...and after all he did for you.


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## noddaz (Aug 6, 1999)

*That was interesting...*

I wonder if it would work on zoomy HO cars? Is the system sensitive enough?
I remember the webcam games that tracked movement and tranferred it to a computer screen... You could move too fast and the cam would not pick it up.
Scott





Slott V said:


> Everything discussed here is do-able. 1:1 racing uses transducers in the cars to pick up signals in the track and the cars performance is recorded to Excel sheets at various points around the track. With today's miniaturization of electronic components one would think you could do the same in HO scale.
> 
> D- you're not far off either. There is web cam technology out today that sees movement in the camera view and can activate outside source controls from hot spots in the viewing range. 1:32 guys are already using this technology for lap timing, pit stop monitoring and more. Theoretically you could time lap segments this way but you'd have to be a wizz at the software coding to identify the separate segments in the recorded data.
> 
> ...


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

> Sir Isaac's spirit will be so disappointed...


I think several of Newton's Laws are thoroughly demonstrated every time my car whacks the wall at high velocity. 

I think it would be very intriguing to consider some next-gen race management solutions that employ various sensor, data acquisition, and race data management technologies. Unfortunately, there are still a lot of folks out there who are perfectly content to run a DOS program (egad!) on a junkyard dog 486 or first-gen Pentium machine with dead strip sensors. Primitive and knuckle dragging yeah, but still fulfills a need.


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## AcesFull (Jan 6, 2008)

Dslot said:


> (Almost sorry I spent that $4 on reed switches).
> 
> Thanks, Slott V.
> -- D


I'm with ya on that. I've spent about $200 in hardware just to get mine up and running. Started with GB's system of emmitters and detectors, then reed switches and now finally photoelectric diffuse type switches connected with Trackmate's serial interface board and their software. After seeing that video, I'm going to have to try it.


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## roffutt (Jun 30, 2006)

I've been dreaming of building something close to all of these suggestions.. Some other thoughts I'd like to add.. 

First add pit boxes - I'd love to add switching track where the car could physically enter a pit area.. but for simplicity.. I was thinking of just a box outlined on the front straight, in front of the driver station. The box would not be much bigger then the car.. and the driver would have to park the car box, if they passed it.. then they'd be forced to do another lap before trying again. The system would know the car is pitted via a reed or Hall switch. I was thinking a led would go red when pitted, and the computer would control when the car was finished pitting and signal green.. if the driver leaves early.. maybe black flag, and try again.  

Gas Gauge - Detecting the amp draw of each car while racing, using that as gauge for when cars need to make a pit stop for gas. I was thinking about taking a few samples per/sec and averaging them out and subtracting from the overall allotted amount. When the car is pitted, the allotted gas amount is restored over time. I know sometimes faster cars pull more amps.. so, maybe force car builders to build more efficient cars? 

Tire Wear - The overall voltage would be controlled for each lane, so at the start of the race the all lanes start out with 18v or whatever.. each lap or maybe just over time.. the voltage is dropped at so many millivolts, down to some minimum. When the car is pitted, tire exchange adds back overall voltage. 

Crash detection - Using the amperage draw detection again, if the no reading is taken for longer the 2.5s, then a crash/spin out is assumed resulting in lost voltage as well. Until pitted for repairs.. or maybe so many detected crashes would force a pit stop. I'd also like to add sensors through out the track, but I was not thinking every foot, maybe 3 to 4 extra.. depending on the size of the course. I was thinking only coming out of the high crash areas, so cars are monitored to complete the whole track and not gaining by crashing and getting a favorable marshal placement. 

Random Race Conditions - The Computer would maybe keep the racing close, giving flat tires, overheated engines, oil leaks, etc.. forcing pits stops. 


I'm pretty sure this all within the realm of possibility.. I'm a software guy, and only know enough about electronics to get me into trouble.. but I'm learning. The only real problem I have is controlling the voltage per lane.. but have some thoughts how to make it work. 

Let me know what you think,
Robbie


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## Slott V (Feb 3, 2005)

*beyond sector timing...*

The new Scalextric digital systems can base "fuel" consumption on the users driving habits based on controller input. That's where that PC Lap Counter system seems to really take advantage of the Phidget board relay controls and race management with pit stops and "refueling". The software can call out when a specific lane needs a pit stop. The phidget board allows you to control the power to each lane. Theoretically you could have 2 power supplies hooked into the relay board and when a driver doesn't pay attention to the manditory pit stop called out by the software and goes beyond a preset amount of laps after the Pit Stop call, the power for the that lane would be greatly reduced. In order to perform a pit stop, the driver actually removes the car from the track and places on a spot at his lane station that records that to the software and clears his pit penalty and the power for that lane goes back to full. This again can all be done with the web cam and Zonetrigger software. The possibilities are endless. 

Gene, Mike Block went into great detail about SlotTrak and the web cam capabilities when I talked to him at the Outhouse Race last summer. I was amazed at what he was telling me and I downloaded the trial version of his software. After looking at SlotTrak I later discovered PC Lap Counter and found they were very similar. I haven't purchased either system but they both give me lots of ideas for a future system. At first glance it appears that PC Lap Counter offers a few more bells and whistles.


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## Slott V (Feb 3, 2005)

AfxToo said:


> I think it would be very intriguing to consider some next-gen race management solutions that employ various sensor, data acquisition, and race data management technologies. Unfortunately, there are still a lot of folks out there who are perfectly content to run a DOS program (egad!) on a junkyard dog 486 or first-gen Pentium machine with dead strip sensors. Primitive and knuckle dragging yeah, but still fulfills a need.


I'm with you on that one bud. I have been brain storming all the posibilities with SLotTrack and PC Lap Counter since last summer, but realize I would have to step up to the plate and get a faster CPU with an XP based operating system. That would mean dumping my LED Timing Tower set up since that is all controlled by a 10 year old DOS based Trakmate program Daniel wrote specifically for me. My track PC is a very old 286/DX33 minus a hard drive that actually boots from a 5 ¼ inch floppy. :drunk:  It still works but is soooo old. I may be able to incorporate the current LED starting tower into the newer software systems but I may just build a new starting light tower more like F1 count downs instead of the odd drag race type starting lights I built back then.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

I'm seeing a lot of great ideas here. I've wondered for a while whether there would be any interest in doing some sort of community-based, open source type of development for a next-gen race management and inventory management (for lack of a better term) system. Both hardware and software elements. I believe that we may have all the right skills represented on this board alone, not just from a hardware and software development point of view but from an understanding of the problem and generation of requirements point of view. 

I've always found that the "how" part of engineering is far easier than the "what" part of engineering. If you can do a good job of defining what it is that you want to built, i.e., "make sure you build the right thing," then following through on the actual development. i.e., "make sure you build the thing right" part is almost always easier and resolvable. If you build the wrong thing, no amount of technical wizardry is going to save you - you're doomed.

I'm not overly concerned about stomping on anyone's existing territory because I believe there are a lot of things that have not been attempted and most of what is already available is pretty basic stuff: count laps, time laps, and rank results. We could do much more.


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## AcesFull (Jan 6, 2008)

AfxToo said:


> I'm seeing a lot of great ideas here. I've wondered for a while whether there would be any interest in doing some sort of community-based, open source type of development for a next-gen race management and inventory management (for lack of a better term) system. Both hardware and software elements. I believe that we may have all the right skills represented on this board alone, not just from a hardware and software development point of view but from an understanding of the problem and generation of requirements point of view.
> 
> I've always found that the "how" part of engineering is far easier than the "what" part of engineering. If you can do a good job of defining what it is that you want to built, i.e., "make sure you build the right thing," then following through on the actual development. i.e., "make sure you build the thing right" part is almost always easier and resolvable. If you build the wrong thing, no amount of technical wizardry is going to save you - you're doomed.
> 
> I'm not overly concerned about stomping on anyone's existing territory because I believe there are a lot of things that have not been attempted and most of what is already available is pretty basic stuff: count laps, time laps, and rank results. We could do much more.


I'm in for hardware developement...that's what I do for a living anyways:thumbsup:


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## fsmra (Feb 28, 2005)

*Sector timing*

I believe that www.slotmaster.com already has this ability

If not - ours will in version 10


Thanks

Michael Block
www.slottrak.com
www.thequarrel.com


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## meccano (Dec 17, 2009)

Hi all,

A little up for that old thread...
I was searching the forum before asking my question and I think this is the best place since you guys seem already interested in this (or at least you were 3 years ago....).

First of all, and to answer 1976Cordoba's initial question, Slot Race Manager is a free DOS prog that does sector timing out of the box (with Reeds and other setups too....). Dos is much more reliable than Windows (believe my 20-year IT experience  ) and PCs are cheap for that.
This is actually one of the progs I'm running (with Reeds) and it's great. Works reliably with all chassis from TJets to superMagnet cars (with SwamperGene's nail trick for security....).

I also have another prog (SCUDM software package) which includes.... refuelling and start lights support !

I would like to use the refuelling option but the software was designed for photocells (you stop right on the photocell for refuelling) and it's pretty tricky to stop right on a reed switch.

So I started looking around the net on electronics forums for a solution (no luck so far.... Guys there are not interested in slot cars I guess  ).

I came up with that so far:

- 2 reed switches per lane to simulate a "pit" zone
- when you have to refuel (@roffutt: the software calculates fuel consumption according to your lap times - pretty neat), you pass the first reed, enter the pit zone and stop. This would activate a "circuit" to simulate the "shadow" on the photocell
- Tank is full, you start again, pass the second reed and leave the pit zone. That would stop the same "circuit" (as if you left the photocell) and end the refuelling procedure.

Now I need your help:

By "circuit", I mean an electronic device or set of devices (switch, relay, SCR, MAX6818,.... see, I did my homework.... or at least part of it) that would be able to "keep the signal up" (voltage variation) for the parallel port (like in the photocell setup) until the car passes the second reed.
I don't think an external power supply would be needed (but I may be wrong) since my current setup with one reed per lane (for lap timing / counting) does not have one (remember the 2 progs measure voltage variation between 2 pins - for each lane - of the parallel port).

I'm almost there but cannot exactly figure out the design and wiring of this.
I'm sure that for someone skilled in electronics it would take 5 minutes to design...

I'm waiting for your advice and help.

I don't know if we should make this post into a new thread or not - i'll leave that choice to the modos.


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## fsmra (Feb 28, 2005)

KSR had sector timing but had Tomy Timers at every sector. Computer software can do it but the cost of hardware would be high, and just how would you handle marshalling and minimum laptimes. But I digress, There are mechanical devices that can do pit lanes, Shaunadega has a switch for it but slottrak could be programmed to move the switch. It does not take photo sensors for pits any sesor will do you jut need to add one set of sensors. If you cross sensor X and never get to sensor y the software can assume the car has stopped in the pits or activate a switch. slottrak and others already do this.
It would be difficult for sector timing as one would need minimum times for each sector and for each class of car as well. And what if the car gets marshalled from sector 1 into sector 2. Doing F1 style sector times would be wonderful for long tracks such as KSR, HO LeMans etc but I think rather useless with 4x16 cookie cutter tracks. Especially for very fast cars like RO and unlimited class. SlotMaster has some data acq features that are pretty neat. Although I am not sure how useful but they are pretty cool. Under current technolgy (read CHEAP) technology web cams can be used for timing see slottrak and pc lapcounter but you need slow or BIG cars to work very well. Or you need to upgrade the software (not likely) or camera technollgy ($$$) to be truly useful however with the proper class of cars it works well and is kind of nice because you dont need sensors or a light bridge. I suppose you could do F1 timing with a 4 computer network - 1 for each sector, 1 for collecting the data the main could also be the actual timing computer. The other issue is hardware for timing sectors you wold need independent timing hardware for each sector, i would think. Say you used Trackmate hardware is has an internal timing system of sorts that sends data that the computer interprets for laptimes. You would need 3 or 4 of these and a failry signigicant timing program to coordinate the times and clocks............

Anyway - If any of you want to do it I would like to see it but i dont think, although i would be glad to be wrong here, it would be cost effective or practical. The pit stop switch and easy pit stops are already done by a few manufacturers and data acqq by 1 at least and for the guy looking for trik trax timers there are some for sale on the WIZ BBS, 1 4 lane and 1 6 lane....

And if any of you have great ideas for doing sector timing please feel free to submit them to me, we are always looking for new ideas at Slottrak

Thanks

Michael Block
www.slottrak.com
www.oconomowocraceway.com
www..thequarrel.com


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## Crimnick (May 28, 2006)

WOW...this is old thread...

The kids would call it "necro a thread"....bring it back from the dead....I like it myself....kids hate it...

Good ifno though...at 104 ft I've thought of sector timing myself.....but the added sensors could be used to do another track...so I kinda dropped the idea...

That brings up a question I have though...

How in the HELL does trakmate know when you have an off?

I've checked and counted....the crash count works...

It is done by referencing the average lap time?

or does it monitor each lap for an anomoly?

IE: if your are running 7 sec laps and then off...running a 9 sec lap...

I've tried backing off and running a slower lap...and it doesnt count as a crash...

Not really important....just curious if anyone knows how it works...


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