# The great Unobtainium disaster?



## dsscse (Dec 19, 2004)

*The great Unobtainium disaster? pics on pg 4 Matt houstons 1701*

Could anyone tell the tale? I had just got back into modeling a few years ago when on a web site I saw a 3' Studio replica of the TOS E for sale, lit or unlit, U build or built and was near or in excess of the NorthStar Refit price, It was V expensive in any form, was that it?
Wondering


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## bil4miller (Jul 30, 1999)

I lost $834 to that outfit for one never shipped TOS-E standard model. I finally got a Unobtainium deluxe model TOS-E in all its droopiness and split open glory last year for $700. I'm half torn between repairing it or leaving it alone.


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

The model, which came pre-assembled and painted, was available in two versions: an unlit version which sold for around $800.00, and a delux lit version that went for around $1,200.00. I saw the the unlit prototype at ComicCon, and it looked pretty good. Unfortunately, owing to the usual assortment of production problems, they didn't manage to sell very many before complaints from unhappy customers forced the company to suspend production for "re-tooling." Long story short, production never resumed, and it wasn't long before Unobtanium went out of business entirely.


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

...and took a lot of folks' good money with it.


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

I consider myself lucky... sort of. Having lost $400.00 to James Latta in the imfamous Icons Jupiter II Scam I was more than a wee bit wary of doing business with the folks at Unobtanium.


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## dsscse (Dec 19, 2004)

Ok! spill it "Icons Jupiter II Scam"?????????????????????????????????


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## Heavens Eagle (Jun 30, 2003)

Yeah I remember seeing the Unobtainium TOS E on the back of the Star Trek the Magazine. With good old William Shatner holding the original 30"er. The price of the unlit one was way more that I would have paid and the lit one was ridiculous. There was also (supposedly) a version that was signed by WS too. I think it went for something like $1800 (or maybe $2400) Don't remember for sure at this point. But there are a lot of crooks out there. Too bad we don't find out till we have already been bit.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Carson Dyle said:


> The model, which came pre-assembled and painted, was available in two versions . . .


Shouldn't that have been:

"The model, which came pre-assembled and painted, was* un*available in two versions . . . "?


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## PhilipMarlowe (Jan 23, 2004)

Carson Dyle said:


> I consider myself lucky... sort of. Having lost $400.00 to James Latta in the imfamous Icons Jupiter II Scam I was more than a wee bit wary of doing business with the folks at Unobtanium.


Me too. I guess I was lucky, I only got screwed out of the bargain-basement pre-order price of $300.00. Did _anyone_ actually receive one?


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## A Taylor (Jan 1, 1970)

I met the guy from Unobtainium at a show and pegged him for either a liar or an idiot within about 6 minutes.
Didn't the name "Unobtainium" tip any of you guys off?


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

Carson Dyle said:


> The model, which came pre-assembled and painted, was available in two versions: an unlit version which sold for around $800.00, and a delux lit version that went for around $1,200.00. I saw the the unlit prototype at ComicCon, and it looked pretty good. Unfortunately, owing to the usual assortment of production problems, they didn't manage to sell very many before complaints from unhappy customers forced the company to suspend production for "re-tooling."


There was no "usual assortment of production problems".

The very few people who did receive models had their models de-evolve and become twisted masses of useless resin.

The poor quality resin and/or insufficent design led their models to become twisted, ugly and useless.

That's not a "usual assortment of production problems."

No one who was ripped off by the junk they received caused themselves to be defrauded. Let's keep the blame squarely where it belongs.


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## PhilipMarlowe (Jan 23, 2004)

PhilipMarlowe said:


> Me too. I guess I was lucky, I only got screwed out of the bargain-basement pre-order price of $300.00. Did _anyone_ actually receive one?


Actually, as my wife so cheerily reminded me as she read over my shoulder, it was _$325.00_! In my defense at least, the J2 looked pretty good on the ol' Icons webpage in the pre-Polar Lights J2 days, and they had a decent-though-prone-to-delays reputation back then.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

I might have bought a kit version of the model but they responded with an email that it wouldn't be available in kit form which made me a little suspicious since, if they were REALLY serious about production, it would be crazy not to knock out some kits while they were at it where the lower price would drastically increase the volume of sales and lower labor cost would vastly increase the profit margin.


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## PhilipMarlowe (Jan 23, 2004)

dsscse said:


> Ok! spill it "Icons Jupiter II Scam"?????????????????????????????????


Icons used to make finished prop replicas with a emphasis on "Lost in Space " and science fiction movies. Way back before Polar Lights came out with the J2 (maybe even before Polar Lights was formed, it was a long time ago) on their web pages and catalogs they announced a 12" Jupiter 2 with full lighting,articulated landing gear and a visible interior, an exact 1/2 sized replica ofthe 2 foot miniature. They had some great looking pictures of a prototype, IIRC correctly the price started at $375 and went up to like $425. It was sold on pre-order, and for a long time after I paid I'd get "updates" on it's progress thru email and snailmail. I remember they even sent pictures of Jonathan Harris and Billy Mummy inspecting the J2 and LIS pistols they also sold. After about a year the updates started coming less and less frequently, and eventually stopped. Rumours ran wild for awhile and tempers were high (Icons stuff wasn't cheap, and a lot of people prepaid for a full sized B-9 robot and Disney Nautilus), eventually it was announced that Icons had went out of business. Some people (but very few) did get the orders honored on some replicas, but I never heard of anyone getting a J2.

At the time the Florida DA's were real responsive about internet fraud, I talked to ours, who said I had a excellent chance of getting a judgement, but little hope of any actual money. Plus it cost about hundred bucks to file and get papers served. A lesson learned.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

To clarify the problem with the Unobtanium Enterprise - they cast it out of resin that was too soft, and those few people who DID get one were treated to seeing it sag, sag, sag, and split open.

I don't doubt the Unobtanium folks went into the project with good intentions, but they bailed FAST went it went south.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

It's amazing how the bankruptcy laws in many cases seem to protect such scalawags who prey on folks through their businesses. 

It should be that one either turns out the product promised or returns the money or goes to jail for fraud. It should be a criminal offense like writing a bad check and not just the ability or lack thereof of paying one's bills that determines one's fate.


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## Lou Dalmaso (Jul 13, 2004)

*Thanks for reminding me*

I was one of the lucky ones. I was able to walk away with only emotional scarring. I was able to get my money back in full after I was able to convince the credit card people that the transaction was never completed because I never received the goods. IT took months and stacks of e-mails and faxes.

Never again. as a matter of fact, I feel bad for the honest Joe out there who wants to try to offer a pricey replica. Nobody is gonna want to take a chance again


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Thank god my wife clubbed me over the head and locked me in a closet until the urge to send those guys $1200 passed.


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

Chuck_P.R. said:


> There was no "usual assortment of production problems"


I was being facetious, Chuck. Next time I'll include a happy face.


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

John P said:


> Thank god my wife clubbed me over the head and locked me in a closet until the urge to send those guys $1200 passed.


Great wife ya have there. :thumbsup: 
Hope you took her out for dinner and dancin'.


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## dsscse (Dec 19, 2004)

I guess this thread has reminded people to keep their BS detector well maintained and listen to your partner (sometimes ;-) ). It is so hard to spot the ones like this, "Icon" was by the sounds of it, totally from left field. Unobtanium we could understand to a degree (before the lies started) because we are modelers and have cast stuff and know how long it takes to get just right and they had a finnished model at a fest on desplay and the advertising was good. But I guess the thing is buyer beware and I am sure that on the list of questions that we all should ask along with do you have an escro account? is what resin are you using? they in HINDSIGHT sound like a real bunch of amatuers! Did they do the display one in resin and then decide that there is resin alot cheeper than this stuff! lets save some $, and not bother to do a test cos resin is resin right? The awfull thing is even IF the maker is just a screw-up and not a con-artist, the loss we take hurts more than the $ because this is something we do for the love of it and to relax. This sort of thing leaves you fealing gutted! My thanks to all of you who contributed so far particularly the ones who have just had to relive that whole SICK making process to do so. Remember by telling the story you will help others not as knowledgeable as yourself, (If I had,had the $ at the time, I would have bought one! I remember thinking at the time they are a limited edition 1701 I wont have saved enough before they are all gone. :-( )
Thank you again


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## A Taylor (Jan 1, 1970)

PerfesserCoffee said:


> I might have bought a kit version of the model but they responded with an email that it wouldn't be available in kit form which made me a little suspicious since, if they were REALLY serious about production, it would be crazy not to knock out some kits while they were at it where the lower price would drastically increase the volume of sales and lower labor cost would vastly increase the profit margin.


Faulty logic.
A kit license is totally different than a "poured goods" or finished collectible 
license. To have knocked out a few kits would have cost the company another sizable downpayment and percentage of gross sales. Truth is, that would never have happened anyway since Paramount had awarded the model kit license to Polar Lights roughly a month or two before Unobtainium announced their Enterprise... if I remember correctly.
Ya gotta learn to be untrusting for the right reasons, dude.
AT


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

A Taylor said:


> Faulty logic.
> A kit license is totally different than a "poured goods" or finished collectible
> license. To have knocked out a few kits would have cost the company another sizable downpayment and percentage of gross sales. Truth is, that would never have happened anyway since Paramount had awarded the model kit license to Polar Lights roughly a month or two before Unobtainium announced their Enterprise... if I remember correctly.
> Ya gotta learn to be untrusting for the right reasons, dude.
> AT


Ignorance, as in lack of knowledge, is my excuse, here. Logic sometimes applies little in the business world--especially when government regulations and contracts get involved. You have supplied me with additional information about the situation for which I am grateful. 

What it came down to in my situation is that I wouldn't have paid those (at the time) big bucks for a product I could build myself if given a kit of the subject. It just seemed wrong to me that they wouldn't supply a kit of the version from what for me was, with the knowledge I had at hand, a practical viewpoint.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

A kit license vs collectible aren't mutually exclusive.
There have been at least two kit manufacturers that have been granted rights to make Trek kits concurrently with Polar Lights. Bandai for one.

Whether and what the additional cost would have been is another issue.


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## sbaxter (Jan 8, 2002)

Since the old wounds are reopened and oozing, there is a question I've long had about this but have never asked -- actually it is just a clarification: Is it the general perception that the Unobtanium _Enterprise_ enterprise (pun intended) originally _began_ as an honest effort to do as advertised, which only went downhill like a roller coaster when problems surfaced and customers started requesting refunds -- of money likely already spent?

That is the perception I have gleaned from following threads on the subject over the years. The fact that _some_ small number of customers actually did receive the product suggests some other original intent than simply scamming customers across the board.

Just curious.

Qapla'

SSB


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

Perhaps, perhaps not.
Who knows?

Perhaps the seller would have acted morally had it been more convient, and all had gone perfectly.

But I don't see the point in such guessing.

It doesn't change what he did.

The guy cut and ran with no attempt to even explain the problems he had, if there were legitimate problems.


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## sbaxter (Jan 8, 2002)

Chuck_P.R. said:


> But I don't see the point in such guessing.
> 
> It doesn't change what he did.


No practical reason in the sense of anything that helps anyone who lost money, no. It would, however, help to explain how he could pull the wool over Paramount's eyes in getting the license if he _wasn't_ trying to fool anyone at that point. Certainly you are correct that it doesn't excuse what he actually did, regardless of his original intent.

As I said, I was curious. I often am! 

Qapla'

SSB


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

The former president of Unobtanium is an attorney with studio connections who thought he could succeed where Icons failed in terms of delivering high-end sci-fi props and miniatures to well-heeled collectors at reasonably affordable prices. As it happens he was mistaken, but I don't believe his initial intention was to rip off his customers (there are, after all, easier ways to make money). The more likely scenario is that the ripping-off idea coincided with the first angry phone call from a disgruntled customer.


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## capt Locknar (Dec 29, 2002)

Carson Dyle said:


> The former president of Unobtanium is an attorney with studio connections who thought he could succeed where Icons failed in terms of delivering high-end sci-fi props and miniatures to well-heeled collectors at reasonably affordable prices. As it happens he was mistaken, but I don't believe his initial intention was to rip off his customers (there are, after all, easier ways to make money). The more likely scenario is that the ripping-off idea coincided with the first angry phone call from a disgruntled customer.


I would have thought the easiest way to make money was to be an attorney. Know what I mean. Charge exorbiant amounts of money for very little work lol


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

He probably realized that without redesigning and redoing each and every ship to be thicker and/or repouring with better resin there was nothing he could do.

At which point the guy probably quickly realized that that blew any chance of making a profit. Might have even cost him more money then he collected.

So he just decided to fold, even though he was stealing lots of people's money and not fulfilling his contractural obligations.

Hard to see how a lawyer can do that and keep his license to practice law, though.
Unless prosecutors have successfully convinced people that it is not worth pursuing the matter.(Remember, they are lawyers too and are getting paid whether they prosecute the guy or not - why would they play up the idea of going after him hard?)
I hope at least one or two people prosecute him for fraud.

If they do, he may be forced to settle, even at a loss, rather then loose his license to practice law.


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## bil4miller (Jul 30, 1999)

I should say that I least did get a bankruptcy claim notice in the case of my $834 dollar claim against Unobtainium, unlike ICONS that just disappeared into the night.

There was a fellow trying to sell an unfinished unobtainium enterprise replica on eBay







a couple years ago. Pretty pricey and his feedback was zero so it never sold.

My deluxe model that I purchased last year shows the typical faults

Drooping saucer

Split engineering hull

Resin oil staining

Decal splits


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## woof359 (Apr 27, 2003)

*Sci Fi Metropolis*

now we have Norm and Sc Fi Metropolis, after the Icons and Unubtanium feasco's, weather always ment to defruade thre consumer or not, i feel good about this vendor. if not a little anxious to see a finished 2 foot J2. 

it has taken him longer than a lot thought for his product to reach the market, but there are bigger companies having the same problem with an unname trek Ship (-:

Norm said from the start, he wood take no :hat: money before he had a product ready for delivery, how can you not like someone lwith that mind set.


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## A Taylor (Jan 1, 1970)

No problem, Perfessor... licensing is a game best left to fools and and lawyers. Usually they are one and the same.
The Bandai kits are not licensed for US distribution - which is why you only see them available from import distributors and the retail outlets they supply.
I agree with Carson that Unobtainium probably didn't set out to rip people off; I much more got the impression that the guy just had no clue as to what he was doing, or the realities of production for such a project. He gave me the blankest stare I've ever seen when I asked him if the model had a metal armature/infrastructure to support the obvious weight of the nacelles and primary hull. He was displaying an unfinished prototype at the convention which was in December, and told me he expected all editions to be sold out and delivered by Christmas of the same year... 
I thanked him for his time and moved quickly down the aisle.
AT


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## Cro-Magnon Man (Jun 11, 2001)

But like you said in your first post, AT, the name 'Unobtainium' was a a clue to something.


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## Tiberious (Nov 20, 2001)

*This whole topic is depressing*

I not only fought for over a year to see my $1500.00 returned for my Ultimate Enterprise, but I also had a space built into my new home for it and it sits empty to this day mocking me.

The whole fiasco left me quite annoyed, exhausted, and depressed. This was the holy grail for me and would've been the centerpiece to my collection until the end.

*sigh*

I hate Rick Cigel, the aforementioned "lawyer" for doing this to Trek fans and I'm no fan of Paramount for not intervening despite having heard from many of us in time to address it.

Tib


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Cro-Magnon Man said:


> But like you said in your first post, AT, the name 'Unobtainium' was a a clue to something.


 And a 3-foot TOS E remains unobtainable to this day, thanks to RC2 buying PL before it could happen. I had such high hopes! 

[quote-tiberious]I not only fought for over a year to see my $1500.00 returned for my Ultimate Enterprise, but I also had a space built into my new home for it and it sits empty to this day mocking me.[/quote]

PL's 34" refit will fill the space perfectly, if you're so inclined .


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

PL's 34" refit will fill the space perfectly said:


> Yep ! :thumbsup:


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## Bay7 (Nov 8, 1999)

Did the end product (before sagging) live up to it's name?


Mike


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

A Taylor said:


> . . . I agree with Carson that Unobtainium probably didn't set out to rip people off; I much more got the impression that the guy just had no clue as to what he was doing, or the realities of production for such a project. He gave me the blankest stare I've ever seen when I asked him if the model had a metal armature/infrastructure to support the obvious weight of the nacelles and primary hull. He was displaying an unfinished prototype at the convention which was in December, and told me he expected all editions to be sold out and delivered by Christmas of the same year...
> I thanked him for his time and moved quickly down the aisle.


You were lucky to have encountered him and discovered his flawed product. 

If what I heard about him going on an e-bay shopping spree with the money he received is true, it seems as though his lawyer's soul showed its true colors after he turned (if indeed he really had good intentions to begin with). 

If he'd been a truly decent man, he'd have taken what was left of the money (after any actual production costs) and paid as much back to everyone as possible instead of doing the sleazy act of declaring bankruptcy to protect his ill-gotten gain.


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## BATBOB (Jul 14, 2003)

You guys that lost money wouldn't have been the only ones. If I hadn't have been battling cancer at the time I would have ordered one for myself. During my recuperation, I discovered that it was way too late to order one to my dissapointment, so I started looking for models to build again (got me back into the hobby).

As for laws....laws are for putting poor people in jail. Rich people somehow don't do the hard time.


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## user1127 (Jun 11, 2002)

*Has anyone 'fixed' a TOS Unobtanium ship?*

Would you:
1) Spend many months to fix it (if at all possible)?
2) Spend many months and less dollars to build a DeBoer Hull's Refit?
3) Spray alcohol on it and set it ablaze, then post pics on HobbyTalk?


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## Rogue1 (Jan 3, 2000)

Oh #3 in a big big way!


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## Barry Yoner (Mar 6, 1999)

Didn't someone try to do that very thing?!?! I don't remember who it was other than it was quite a while ago (a year or more??) and it got as far as unassembled.

Anyone else remember?


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## AZbuilder (Jul 16, 1999)

I seem to remember that someone or several people Posted pics of their TOS Unobtanium wish I had copied them for reference.


AZbuilder


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

*Has anyone 'fixed' a TOS Unobtanium ship?* 



*No. But, I'd like to "fix" the owner of the company.  *


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

There are only a few people I'd wager money on being able to use the Unobtanium pieces in creating a decent replica (probably including building an internal skeleton for the ship). They all post on the HobbyTalk forums, maybe they'll speak up.


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## lonfan (Feb 11, 2001)

Hey Limmie Axe You This About the "Unobtanium" Piece, IF PL HAD/DOES Put out a TOS Enterprise And If They (PL) Made it the Size of The PL Re-Fit or NX , is/was The Unobtainium Bigger are the Same Size? just wondering on the Computer Screen It the Unobtainium,Looks Bigger than the One Shatner and Nimoy are Holding in those infamous Publicity Shots from Early in the Original Series

LON/JOHN


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Should be the same size. That was the idea: make a production version in the same size (34"?) as the smaller effects model used in the show.


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## MGagen (Dec 18, 2001)

PerfesserCoffee said:


> Should be the same size. That was the idea: make a production version in the same size (34"?) as the smaller effects model used in the show.


Exactly 33-3/4" if the original "3-footer" mirrored the construction drawing.

Mark


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## X15-A2 (Jan 21, 2004)

OK Mark, you just had to get your quarter-inch in, didn't you?


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

That's what _she _said!


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

[email protected]#* ... I'm sorry for ya Mr. John P


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## X15-A2 (Jan 21, 2004)

But its RAGGING!


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

JGG1701 said:


> [email protected]#* ... I'm sorry for ya Mr. John P


 I....didn't mean me ya know.


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

^^^oic


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## Matt houston (Mar 31, 2005)

I have the last surviving (intact) TOS Unobtainium Enterprise.
It has working lights, sounds and Shatners autograph on the base.


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## dsscse (Dec 19, 2004)

Well it certainly looks good, did you reinforce it or is it one that just works? 


and re the president of Unobtanium " If only he had used his powers for good and niceness instead of evil"


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## Matt houston (Mar 31, 2005)

It still looks and works great after nearly 4 years!










The model is reinforced and kept in a lucite display case.


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## Matt houston (Mar 31, 2005)

*Last surviving Unobtainium "Ultimate" Enterprise*

Here are a couple more pics.
I also have the "certificate of authenticity" signed by Matt Jeffries(sp?)


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## Arronax (Apr 6, 1999)

Ya know, it's a lot smaller than I thought. I've always seen pictures of this incredibly large scale model but it's not really very big is it? Either that or Matt is a ten foot giant and the perspective's all out whack.

And they were asking how much for this puppy?

Jim


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## Matt houston (Mar 31, 2005)

*Last Surviving Unobtainium Enterprise*

The model is a recreation of the 3 foot long Enterprise like the one used in the Shatner/Nimoy posters.
As for me, I'm 6'2" tall.
As for the price...I think I paid about $1,500 for it.

Matt


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

You mentioned it was reinforced........
How ?


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## Matt houston (Mar 31, 2005)

*Last Surviving Unobtainium Enterprise*

The model sits in a lucite "cradle"...basically 2 lucite strut supports.
The struts can be removed, and the ship can be displayed without them for days or even weeks at a time without any worries.

The model lines up exactly the way its supposed to.
No sagging or drooping!

You can see the removed struts in this picture.


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## MGagen (Dec 18, 2001)

X15-A2 said:


> OK Mark, you just had to get your quarter-inch in, didn't you?





John P said:


> That's what _she _said!


All right, gentlemen; it's not my _quarter-inch_, it's my _final_ quarter-inch...

...and for the record, articulate speech usually eludes her.


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

I can barely see the "lucite cradle" , do you have a pic. of it (them) by themselves ?
Thankyou,  
Jim (JGG1701)


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## Nova Designs (Oct 10, 2000)

I dunno about it not sagging, those engines sure look droopy to me.


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## Matt houston (Mar 31, 2005)

No drooping at all...straight as an arrow


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

O.K. I can see the saucer is supported from your last photo , but what is supporting nacelles ? 
BTW, It is a *beautiful* recreation (model) !


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## Matt houston (Mar 31, 2005)

On the left is the nacell support...
On the right is the saucer cradle
I realize that they are difficult to see.
They are very thin,clear pieces that don't detract from the model in the least.


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

Very nice. 
Thankyou Mr. Matt houston.


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## Matt houston (Mar 31, 2005)

Thanks for the compliments...
I'm glad I could share it with you.

Matt


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

Whoa! Dude, that's sweet! :thumbsup: 

I agree w/Nova Designs initial thoughts on the droopage, tho it obviously doesn't. Possibly an aspect of the tapering of the nacelles, I guess...? I've seen a few that from the right angle appear to have some droopage, but then other angles you can tell they're straight and level. Weird how that works out, huh? 

Thanks for sharing the pics! Nice to see someone who didn't get shafted on the deal.


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## Matt houston (Mar 31, 2005)

Thanks again.
I almost "got the shaft" like everybody else.
Unobtainium wanted the model back until a replacement was made.
I said no deal...I wouldn't give the model back until I had something in hand.
The rest as they say...is history.

Also, no droopage...The model lines up as it should!


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

I'm glad that SOMEBODY got what they paid for.

I did get "the shaft". All $1300+ worth. No model. No refund. Lots of lame excuses.

It looks great. It's good to see that at least one remains intact.


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## Steven Coffey (Jan 5, 2005)

I am sorry but I guess you guys have more disposable income than I do , but $1300 for a model?Hell $800 for it unbuilt ? $1300 is more than I paid for my first car!I mean no insult by this but that's a lot of money to pay for anything!In the words of Monty Python it's only a model!Maybe I am not hardcore enough ,I may not be the model builder or Trekie I thought I was.I hang my head in shame !Any way I found this on the net http://squaremodels.netfirms.com/ .


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## Matt houston (Mar 31, 2005)

Steven,

I understand where you are coming from...
This is the most I have ever paid for any collectible, but I knew when I saw this thing that I just had to have it. Now, being the only surviving model, it's probably a safe bet that it's worth considerably worth more than my initial investment!


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## Steven Coffey (Jan 5, 2005)

Matt houston said:


> Steven,
> 
> I understand where you are coming from...
> This is the most I have ever paid for any collectible, but I knew when I saw this thing that I just had to have it. Now, being the only surviving model, it's probably a safe bet that it's worth considerably worth more than my initial investment!


That is true!I know that if you are anything like me that you will never get rid of it now that you have it .I think it is a beautiful model ! Did you go to the website I posted ?The 5 foot Enterprise is incredible!!!


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## Matt houston (Mar 31, 2005)

Steven,

That is one heck of a model...
The only problem is...where the heck do you put it???
Believe me, I would love to get my hands on one of those!

Matt


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## Steven Coffey (Jan 5, 2005)

Well you park one of the cars in the driveway and put it in the garage!!  :jest:


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

Steven Coffey said:


> I am sorry but I guess you guys have more disposable income than I do , but $1300 for a model?Hell $800 for it unbuilt ?


The $800 version was actually for an _unlit_ version. It was never offered as a kit.


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## dsscse (Dec 19, 2004)

Griffworks said:


> Whoa! Dude, that's sweet! :thumbsup:
> 
> I agree w/Nova Designs initial thoughts on the droopage, tho it obviously doesn't. Possibly an aspect of the tapering of the nacelles, I guess...? I've seen a few that from the right angle appear to have some droopage, but then other angles you can tell they're straight and level. Weird how that works out, huh?
> 
> Thanks for sharing the pics! Nice to see someone who didn't get shafted on the deal.


Sometimes folks, apparent droopage or non-alignment can be an artifact of the camera lens, one of my previous hobbies was photography and I would look at some shots I had taken and see slightly bent buildings (not just the headquaters of the Australian gay rights movement :tongue: ) this might explain some apparent brewers droop with nacelles, there are technical optical physics reasons for this bending, including formula for the amount of distortion but I am a dummy and dont know them. But I am sure there are members that can tell us, that are in the film industry or are professional photographers......come on you know who you are, please give us a lesson in Lens refraction physics 101.


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## KUROK (Feb 2, 2004)

Hey, I wish I didn't have to bump an old thread like this but I can't find that post by Thom that showed pics of his Unobtainium restoration project. How's that coming along?


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## bil4miller (Jul 30, 1999)

KUROK said:


> Hey, I wish I didn't have to bump an old thread like this but I can't find that post by Thom that showed pics of his Unobtainium restoration
> project. How's that coming along?


I picked up a damaged Unobtainium deluxe model with the droop, stained resin, and cracked body and was excited about seeing a restoration attempt. I went to Thomas models web site and though the text is still up but all the pictures show as "red x's". Kinda curious about how one goes about dismantling one.


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

Restoration was abandon quite some time ago, hence the lack of any update.


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## bugs bunny (Dec 1, 2005)

Steven Coffey said:


> Well you park one of the cars in the driveway and put it in the garage!!  :jest:


LOL! But that thing was no small feat. I commend the builder! If I could get my hands on the cash I would gladly buy one of those monsters.


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## SteveR (Aug 7, 2005)

ThomasModels said:


> Restoration was abandon quite some time ago, hence the lack of any update.


It's easier to scratchbuild a new one?


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## dsscse (Dec 19, 2004)

Matt houston said:


> The model is a recreation of the 3 foot long Enterprise like the one used in the Shatner/Nimoy posters.
> As for me, I'm 6'2" tall.
> As for the price...I think I paid about $1,500 for it.
> Matt


I think Matt could just name almost any price due to its rareity being probably the only functional one left in existance and the *Matt Jeffries signed certificate*, (dont forget Bill Shatners sig  ) I hope you have an agreed insurance value on her and her paperwork


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## Bay7 (Nov 8, 1999)

Matt houston said:


> Here are a couple more pics.
> I also have the "certificate of authenticity" signed by Matt Jeffries(sp?)


I like that shot - it has that optical 'chubby saucer edge' effect that I've never been able to see on ERTL versions.

Mike


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## David Banner (Apr 30, 2002)

I posted this report about the Unobtainium Enterprise in April of 2002. It was taken down by the moderator. I guess he didn't want me giving my verdict on an item that was currently up for sale to the public. But now I see everyone and their mother has been posting the same info and agreeing with what I said in the first place. Had he let me keep this posting up I could have saved others from investing in this poorly built replica. I wonder if he will take my posting down again or is the info so old he won't care anymore??? God bless America.

Here is my original report:

Unobtainium Lighted Enterprise - a full report 
*** TO BOLDLY SAY NO *** 

Being a Trek fan since I was a kid, I have always wanted a huge Enterprise ship of my own that would be as big as a house. But since I have limited space, I was excited to hear about a new replica by a company called Unobtainium Ltd. They produce a lighted version of the Enterprise that is modeled after the original 33 inch miniature used in the original series. 

You may have seen Kirk holding this ship in a popular publicity photo from the 60’s. It was also seen in the episode “Requiem for Methuselah” in which a man named Flint with magically delicious powers removes the Enterprise from space, shrinks it, then kindly displays it on a custom made stand. Kirk then peers into it and sees his crew frozen in place. NEATO! 

After Trek was cancelled this original ship sat on the desk of Gene Roddenberry until at some point it became lost in space. No one knows for sure what happened to it. My money is on some kids knocking it over onto the floor. 

As a model builder I had questions about how Unobtainium designed their version of this classic ship. I had a chance to see their version at a comic book convention. It was held in Oakland California on April 20, 2002. I wanted to see first hand if the quality was worth the price they were asking of 1,295.00 + shipping. For that price, I would expect the ship to fly on its own power to my mailing address. 

My main concern was if there would be access into its interior to fix future mishaps such as loose wiring or an LED that needs replacing. What if a voltage surge occurs and it burns out the whole thing? It’s not as if I could take it to a local star base for repair. 

Once I got to the convention room and tripped over a few ewoks I spotted their table. I made my way through the crowd of Storm Troopers and Klingons. As I got closer I could swear the guys at the table were laughing and pointing in my direction. As if they thought another crazed fan with money to burn was about to blindly buy at warp speed. But wait, I hadn't taken my wallet out of my pocket yet. I still had $1295.00 + shipping of my hard earned dollars. Well, minus the cost of the vulcan plomeek soup and saurian brandy I had at the snack bar. 

As I approached the table my heart sank. Crap! I just laid eyes on the thing and my biggest fear about what could go wrong with it was staring me in the face. The main hull lighting was not working correctly! 

I asked the Unobtainium employee the question I already knew the answer to. ”Why isn’t the main hull lit?” I could hear a drum roll in the back of my mind as he picked up the ship with both hands and uttered the words: "uhmm.....someone bumped into it." If this were a game show I would have won whatever was behind door number 2. My fear about buying a pre-built lighted kit became a reality. This ship just got commissioned and already it needed to be in dry dock for repairs. 

I felt kind of sorry for the guy, standing there with a limp ship in his hands. (no pun intended) It’s not quite the best selling point, having to explain that if someone bumps into it, it will be “lights out” for the Enterprise and there is no way to fix it. Can you imagine if these guys worked at the Star Fleet shipyards and built Kirks Enterprise with such touchy wiring problems? Kirk would have died way before the mindless writers of “Generations” got a hold of him. 

Now that I have torn this ship apart about the lighting situation, let's tackle the color, details and features... 

Unobtainium told me that the ship was based mostly on the 33 inch model but the 11-foot model came into play as well. If there were any differences in color, features, and details, then the 33 inch original model took precedence. 

There is a problem with using the 33 inch original model over the original 11-foot model (now hanging in the Smithsonian Museum in Washington D.C.) when trying to duplicate colors and details. Anytime we as viewers of the series could distinguish details or colors it was because of the 11-foot model. Only the 11-foot model gave us a visual feast that we could remember or even research with clarity. In other words, making the ship exactly match the colors of the smaller miniature is fine, but it was the 11-footer that let us see the details and colors clearly on our little tv screens. So the 11-footer should’ve taken precedence "instead" when it came to differences in details and colors. 

Other problems: 

The impulse engine area on the rear of the main hull had some problems. The detailing was not all there as seen on the 11 footer and the color should have been more of a “purple” shade. 

The grid lines on top of the main hull were too prominent. (I know, I know, we could battle this point forever about the grid lines.) 

The sensor dish was poorly painted and looked like it had speckles of black paint all over it. Most of the other detail areas also looked like they were handpainted rather than given a professional airbrush job. I think it was a mistake that they used a satin\glossy topcoat over the whole ship. It made the ship look like a die cast toy. You know, the ones that little kids like to put into their mouths and choke on. 

There is an interesting detail that Unobtainium duplicated from the studio models that actually should have been ignored. This takes a bit of explaining. If you don’t already know this, the 11-foot model was never finished on the port (left) side of the main hull as well as the secondary hull. If they wanted to show the ship coming at us from the port side, they would flip the film around in editing. One episode shows the Enterprise coming right at the camera almost perfectly centered. If you freeze frame on it with a video player, you can see that the windows on the forward port side of the main hull don’t match the window layout on the starboard side. Even though these windows were missing in “real life” it was not meant to be noticed on film. It was to be assumed by viewers that the windows were evenly balanced on both sides of the ship. The Unobtainium modelers duplicated the actual studio model and eliminated these same windows. I guess in this situation it is a case of too much realism. 

To continue my rant, the windows are not evenly aligned especially on the main hull. For experienced modelers I don't understand why Unobtainium didn't come up with a solid method to make sure all the windows lined up properly. 

Another problem with the windows: they were not clear but translucent and had a blue tint coming from either the lights inside or it was part of the translucent material they used. I’d hate to be serving on this ship with no windows to look out of. Half the crew would stick a phaser in their mouth and call it a day. 

And don't get me started on the lighted windows below the shuttle bay doors. LED’s sticking through poorly shaped rectangular slots just doesn't hack it. I’ve seen electronic toy versions that looked better. A better way would have been to first make sure the windows were perfect in their rectangular shape and then place clear colored sheeting on the inside of the ship during construction. This would at least produce a flat surface, look more like navigational windows, and be more believable to the eye. I’m sure there are other ideas out there even better than mine. 

The lighted nacelles were not the best interpretation in how they twinkled and how the ribbing marks on the nacelle domes looked. I've seen better accuracy from those who construct store bought kits, some of which have been displayed on another website. 

I had asked if Unobtainium would ever sell this ship as a kit to be assembled. That way a modeler can setup his\her own lighting system and also create access panels to the lights for future replacement. I was told that they could have gone that route but decided not to. Bad choice fellas. The price per ship would have been less profit, but you would have sold more in the long run and made much more money. 

As a model maker who demands accuracy, the price is not worth the overall look of this ship. Don't get me wrong, if you are not into model making and don't know a thing about this ship, then the quality is just fine (cough cough). But if you are a advanced modeler or someone who demands exact detailing then you would be better off building a kit of this ship yourself or finding a model maker to do it for you. You will save hundreds of dollars and get better accuracy as well as be able to include hidden access panels to replace broken lights and loose wiring etc. 

I have never taken the time to write a report on a kit before, but I just had to speak up on this one. For the price they are asking, I surely expected nothing but the best. 

Remember, all because an item is “officially approved” by those who own the licensing rights, doesn’t mean that the item is going to be the best of the best. It only means that it is good enough for them to feel they are going to make a profit since certain criteria was met. 

I'm glad I paid the $15.00 to get into the convention so I could see the ship before I blindly bought it off their Internet site. I suggest you do the same if you think you want to buy one. 

I’d sure like to hear other comments from those who have seen this ship or have purchased one. You can post a message here or email me at the address listed below. 

If you have finished a store bought or scratch built kit of Star Trek or Star Wars ships I welcome you to send me a photo or two and any tips you may want to share 

Email me at: waitingtohear(at)hotmail(dot)com

Phase Pistols on Stun, 

David


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## Thom S. (Sep 28, 2004)

David Banner said:


> I posted this report about the Unobtainium Enterprise in April of 2002. It was taken down by the moderator. I guess he didn't want me giving my verdict on an item that was currently up for sale to the public....Had he let me keep this posting up I could have saved others from investing in this poorly built replica. I wonder if he will take my posting down again or is the info so old he won't care anymore??? God bless America.


That moderator no longer sponsors or moderates on this nor any other HobbyTalk forum. God bless America indeed. You will find it less stringent around here and pretty fair. We all pretty much get along and most everyone participates in the discussion at hand or shows their work. Welcome back! (Your defunct website links and your email address hotlink were removed from your post.)


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

David Banner said:


> I posted this report about the Unobtainium Enterprise in April of 2002. It was taken down by the moderator. I guess he didn't want me giving my verdict on an item that was currently up for sale to the public.


Yeah. Too bad. You would have placed a seed of doubt in many who frequented this board then and wound up getting cheated by those con-artists.


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## Matt houston (Mar 31, 2005)

The ship still exists...

Here's a recent mvi of it in operation.
Enjoy!

http://www.zippyvideos.com/9698123081930436/mov02177/

http://www.zippyvideos.com/4465235581930306/mov02173/

Matt


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## spe130 (Apr 13, 2004)

Good idea to brace it like that, with the reputation those things have for disintegrating.


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## DukeAlaric (Apr 26, 2006)

David Banner said:


> Once I got to the convention room and tripped over a few ewoks I spotted their table. I made my way through the crowd of Storm Troopers and Klingons. As I got closer I could swear the guys at the table were laughing and pointing in my direction. As if they thought another crazed fan with money to burn was about to blindly buy at warp speed. But wait, I hadn't taken my wallet out of my pocket yet. I still had $1295.00 + shipping of my hard earned dollars. Well, minus the cost of the vulcan plomeek soup and saurian brandy I had at the snack bar.
> 
> Phase Pistols on Stun,
> 
> David


Wow dude, sorry, but I don't recall laughing at you or pointing in your direction when you came to the table I was working at. You did have the unfortunate luck of walking up to look at the ship right after it had been bumped by some eager fans and the connection for the LED's on the hull had gotten messed up. Your thought that the LED system being inside the ship and difficult to get to was something that many of us on the staff thought might be a problem too, though.

When the product appeared to have been going well, which it was for some time, we were all very proud of it. When the resin began to fail on them, we all became disappointed. Weeks that could have been spent building models for shipment, were instead traded for time to figure out what other measures could be taken for the resin issue. Should this have never been an issue? Yes. But there wasn't much I could do about a decision that was made before I got to the company, as all I could do was try to work forward, and help make the product as good as we could. Ultimately, due to many factors, including a legal wrangle over who owned the company, who would be liable for the company's issues, and many other factors that would make a terrible soap opera, the company folded owing both customers and employees lots of money. It was sad for all of us, especally those of us fans who worked there and were proud to have gotten the opportunity to have worked with Mr. Jefferies, the Paramount Staff, and on one of the coolest projects we could ever have imagined working on. 

I am not going to try and defend certain aspects of Unobtainium's business practices, let's just say they screwed a lot of people including employees. I probably lost more money from them through their non-payment of paychecks, etc, than anyone on this board, by a warp factor of 25+ times the amount. 

To address certain other issues regarding the ship-
1) windows had to be frosted somewhat in order for the LED's to show up nicely. 

2) There was a metal substructure for the nacels, unfortunately the desginer didn't add one into the body as well for them to "plug" into, so their weight ultimately split them along the seam in the back of the main hull.

3) The resin that was used on most of the ships turned out to be defective. Ultimately, I think that the resin company had to fork over some money in a settlement. I honestly don't know though. (I haven't heard anything from them in years, not that they are going to call me anytime soon especially with how many $$$'s they owe me for working there.) Even though other resins were tried, and some seemed to work better than others (which is why I believe that there are a few models out there other than Matt's that still work) most were done with that horrible resin that didn't hold its integrity and then seeped oily patches in any part that was sanded too much. THe company that sold Unobtainium the original resin messed up. 

4) Kits were not an option. Unobtainium did not have the rights to sell them, and would have been shut down if they had. Maybe that would have been good for the company to have been shut down early on. The extra rights for the kits were too expensive.

5) I did not handle the books, but many expensive items were bought by Rick Cigel during this time period. I do not know if he bought them with personal money or company money. There is no law against an owner purchasing things with his own money, no matter how bad it looks or how much it pisses off the employees who see thousands being spent on collectibles but their salaries not being paid, nor how much it pisses off collectors who see same things bought, and they are getting told that their models that were paid for aren't done yet.

6) Numerous re-tooling attempts were made, including negotiating with a Chinese firm to have the model parts done in ABS to the same specs as the kit. That fell apart right before the go button was pressed, and likely would have solved many of the issues involved. 

7) Some of the best modelers and mold makers in Hollywood were hired to work on this product, and it was coming along well. When problems set in, and these individuals were still working at their high rates, when the work should have shifted to lower cost assembly employees, we all realized that there were going to be problems. People started leaving the company at that point, because paychecks started coming in later and later. 

If anyone has any questions regarding I can try to answer them. 

Regards,

George

Hi Matt. I'm glad you held onto your ship and it still works.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

Gee, one guy got a model that's still working, horray!!!

I don't blame allegedly screwed-over ex-employees for their bosses' actions.

But an offer from an alleged insider to answer questions *two years* after the fact isn't too impressive an act.

Call me cynical, but I'm willing to bet some sort of statue of limitations has recently passed. Or perhaps some previous Unobtainium employees are working on the MR effort and this info is on the verge of being leaked by someone?

Maybe my cynicism is entirely unwarranted and this is just a selfless act on the part of George's.

But such an invitation to discuss the issue would have meant a lot more two years ago then it does now. To be fair, perhaps it isn't your job to give explainations of what went wrong. But bad resin, while perhaps a major cause, doesn't cost that much to replace compared to what was paid per unit.

On the otherhand, if you have info that could still be used to put your former crooked employers in criminal or civil court. Then I think we're all ears.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

The apparent fraud and incompetency involved in that whole fiasco have certainly poisoned anyone associated with it.

It's one of those situations that one would have to admit the apparent wrongdoing/incompetency then add "BUT . . . " in order to explain his association with it.


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## DukeAlaric (Apr 26, 2006)

Chuck,

You are cynical.

The thread here is only two years old. I've been invovled with this topic since 2002, and have been helping people by answering questions about the company in order to help them to try and secure money from their credit card companies or other judgements. If this thread is only 2 years old, then it is the johnny-come-lately to the overall Unobtainium issue, not me. 

You question my having worked at Unobtainium? Why? Why would anyone want to lie about having been an employee there? In any case, I think Matt Houston can probably recall our talking on more than one occasion, setting up shipments through DSL, etc. 

Chuck, your cynicism is unwarranted and your attidude is rude. Your implications seem to me to be that I was somehow involved in illicit activity of some sort at Unobtainium, that I am lying now, and that I haven't been involved with this issue since the beginning. None of which is true. Why would I care if a statute of limitations has passed, especially in light that I have been putting this same info out for years? I didn't/haven't done anything wrong. Considering the idea of Akkam’s Razor, which states that the simplest explanation is often the best, maybe I really did just come across this board, and decided to post something. I get the impression from your post, though, that you would rather try and read a whole lot more into it, and create a scenario complete with a legal conspiracy, and add to the myth and mystery of Unobtainium. That would certainly make this whole thing a lot more interesting for you and other people who were not directly affected by it. Ultimately, however, where Unobtainium is concerned, it was a real world company that went bankrupt for many reasons, and I worked for them. 

If anyone would like to ask any questions about Unobtainium for any reason, whether or not you are "...all ears" because I "...have info that could still be used to put [my] former [so called as afaik they have not been charged with anything] crooked employers in criminal or civil court," or even if you are simply interested in what really happened, and would like to know rather than continue to speculate about it or put a sinister conspiratorial twist to everything that happened there, then I would be happy to answer them and clear up some of the issues surrounding the mess that was Unobtainium Ltd.

Chuck, if you want to take the time and apologize for your implications and rudeness, I'd love to get a short "Sorry for my tone" or something similar. If you feel that I have been too rude in my comments, I will offer a quick apology now, as they are not meant to be so, but only meant to address what you stated and I felt you implied.

Regards,

George

PS- Regarding resin:
Resin, in and of itself, isn’t all that expensive. The labor used in making the molds, putting models together, etc, is expensive, and irreplaceable. When the issues with the resin developed, much of the company’s working capital had already been shot in R&D and the first part of the production run. Models had to be recalled and replaced. Molds had to be re-done as they only last so long. I would guess that the model Matt has is one of the later resin ones, and not one of the earlier ones as they all developed the oil leaching issue. By the time this resin was found, it was too late in the ballgame. Many of the trained employees had already left, and getting production up to speed again would be no easy task, certainly not made easier by the lack of funding that the company faced. 

PPS- What is an MR effort? If it is a chance for me to get some of the money that they owe me I'd like to find out more.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

DukeAlaric said:


> PPS- What is an MR effort? If it is a chance for me to get some of the money that they owe me I'd like to find out more.



http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=144526


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## DukeAlaric (Apr 26, 2006)

Thanks- I hadn't heard that they were coming out with one.

What is funny for me personally is that Unobtainium went up against Master Replicas for the Lightsaber production rights. I wasn't with the pitch team, so I don't know how that all went, but Unobtainium obviously didn't get the gig. 

On the one hand there is the part of me that looks fondly on what could have been every time I am in Borders and see the lightsaber stand, but then again I also think that we probably would have foudn a way to mess those up as well, like rather than find someone to manufacture it, we'd keep costs down by keeping production in house and American!!! Ha!

Best of luck to them, the other products they have made turned out well enough.

George

PS- ironically there is a bit of weirdness with one of the original partners from Master Replicas. IIRC he was involved with a few companies that made unlicensed prop replicas. Obviously, though, the team he was part of and was put together for the company got a great business plan and model, and when they got the rights for the Sabers, they were set.


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

DukeAlaric said:


> Considering the idea of Akkam’s Razor, which states that the simplest explanation is often the best, maybe I really did just come across this board, and decided to post something.


I believe you're referring to Occam's (or Ockham's) Razor. However it's spelled I appreciate your taking the time to fill in some of the blanks regarding the collapse of Unobtanium. Such a waste...


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## Nova Designs (Oct 10, 2000)

Yeah it really is sad how some people use others to get rich quickly and without any care for their employees, customers, or the product they are producing. That ain't capitalism, its pure, evil greed.

Its even more sad that the people responsible are not legally held to repay all the employees and customers they defrauded.


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## Matt houston (Mar 31, 2005)

My Unobtainium Enterprise works and looks as good as it does because I took steps to insure that it wouldn't droop or deteriorate. The model sits in an enclosed lucite case in a lucite cradle. I must say that even after a few years...this thing still thrills me each time I flip the switch. It is not perfect and does have some slight paint issues, but until MR comes out with its version, it's the best looking tos E out there. I could have been just as easily burned by Unobtainium, as they wanted me to ship my model back for a replacement ship that would come later. I declined, saying you ship the replacement model first, then I'll return my original model. Also, after the company declared chapter 11, I asked the folks there to kindly ship me some extra decal sheets in the event I needed them down the road...and they did! My experience with Unobtainium was fairly good, and I love my replica. I do however feel awful for those folks who lost their money and their ships in the process. Hopefully the MR version will fill that void...


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## DukeAlaric (Apr 26, 2006)

Just as a note, frad, defraude, etc are pretty big words meaning that someone purposely set up a front to steal people's money under false pretenses.

Unobtainium, or at least while I was working there, had every intention of trying to deliver models and was working towards that goal, even as the ship was going down around us (or should I say drooping?).

We looked into many solutions, but due to the licensing agreement, and the advertising that had already been placed, Unobtainium was in a way "locked in" to delivering a model made in a certain way.

Could it have been done differently or better? Yes. Faster? Sure.

But some of the problems that we ran into, such as nit picked measurements, etc, are going to be issues that every model company will face. Not everyone will be 100% happy with any repro of this ship, as the original simply doesn't exist to be copied. 

see this link for an analysis of the Unobtainium Enterprise:

http://home.earthlink.net/~karltate/UE_DIMENSIONS.html

The resin droop can already be seen coming in the photos presented.

Fans are a very difficult bunch of people to please!

George


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## PhilipMarlowe (Jan 23, 2004)

DukeAlaric said:


> Fans are a very difficult bunch of people to please!
> 
> George


Gosh, how "difficult" of them to expect to actually get something good for their $1,200.

BTW, I was one of those "difficult" fans Icons screwed out of my hard earned money. I realize you had nothing to do with stealing money directly from people, but that's what happened to folks that bought Icons and Unobtainium stuff, they got stole from. Period. Out of not insubstantial amounts of money to those of us unluckly enough not be a lawyer or a exxon executive.

I love how business types always have a logical explanation about how they _really_ didn't mean to screw the consumer. It just happens in business....


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## toyroy (Jul 17, 2005)

PhilipMarlowe said:


> Gosh, how "difficult" of them to expect to actually get something good for their $1,200.
> 
> BTW, I was one of those "difficult" fans Icons screwed out of my hard earned money. I realize you had nothing to do with stealing money directly from people, but that's what happened to folks that bought Icons and Unobtainium stuff, they got stole from. Period. Out of not insubstantial amounts of money to those of us unluckly enough not be a lawyer or a exxon executive.
> 
> I love how business types always have a logical explanation about how they _really_ didn't mean to screw the consumer. It just happens in business....


Stop. Here's an idea: don't lay out money for something, unless you can take it with you, right then and there.


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## Ignatz (Jun 20, 2000)

That's a little unrealistic, considering how much the internet has made garagekits and other collectibles available to a much broader audience. There's no bricks and morter retail for this kind of thing, and unless you can make it down to one of the major conventions, you're not going to see anything before taking a chance and putting money down for something sight unseen.


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## REL (Sep 30, 2005)

Ignatz said:


> That's a little unrealistic, considering how much the internet has made garagekits and other collectibles available to a much broader audience. There's no bricks and morter retail for this kind of thing, and unless you can make it down to one of the major conventions, you're not going to see anything before taking a chance and putting money down for something sight unseen.



Exactly, unless you want to travel to their house and buy it in person, other than that the internet is the only way to get garage kits. 

Of course there's several steps to take as far as protecting yourself from being taken, pay by a means that gives you an option of getting your money back if you've been defrauded; like Paypal or a credit card.


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## PhilipMarlowe (Jan 23, 2004)

toyroy said:


> Stop. Here's an idea: don't lay out money for something, unless you can take it with you, right then and there.


 I'm sure if you ordered, say a washing machine from Home Depot, arranged to have it delivered, and they sent either a defective one, or nothing at all, you'd feel different. I don't think you'd be real happy if some store dweeb told you "Here's an idea: don't lay out money for something, unless you can take it with you, right then and there". And it's the exact same situation.

If that's how you do business fine. But I've been dealing online for years now, and it's the only pre-order where I've got nothing with no recourse. I've dealt with delays, production problems, etc, those things are part of doing business.

Most people are honest online because word travels quick when they aren't. Icons wasn't some overnight company, they delivered quality stuff for years before they suddenly folded.


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## DukeAlaric (Apr 26, 2006)

Philip Marlowe,

Perhaps you misunderstood what I meant by "difficult."

I was referring to the fans who argue with you about thread count on a costume, or how the grid lines were or were not raised on the hull of the Enterprise, etc. Every fan's definition of what is "good" is different, and they are indeed very hard to please in that fashion. That was/is one of the biggest problems in this field is how to make a mass product that makes everyone happy with it. When a piece is mass produced, though, not everything about it will be perfect. The pieces can be really, really good, but someone will invariably be unhappy, and much of that unhappiness results from the corners that you have to cut in order to make something profitable. 

Customers, whether or not they are fans, have a right to good service and to expect their products, and have a right to complain and be difficult if they are not getting the service they desire. 

If you were a "difficult" fan because you thought the sizing of the Icons' "Noisy Cricket" repro was a little off, then that is one thing, but if you "difficult" because as a customer you had sent them money for it, and weren't getting your goods, then that is a very legitimate issue that you had, and damn straight you should be difficult! 

These kinds of things do just happen in business unfortunately. I hate to break it to you that way. When these kinds of companies cross the line from fan sideline project to full grown business they will encounter all the problems and issues that any other business will encounter. Look how many of them have failed over the last 15 years alone. It is not an easy market to get into and stay solvent. Licensing is expensive, and design and manufacture aren't cheap either. 

I do believe that there was some legal action being pursued in this case in various venues, but I have not heard the outcome of it. 

I am sorry you lost money with Icons, I know quite a few people who did.

Regards,

George


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## PhilipMarlowe (Jan 23, 2004)

DukeAlaric said:


> Philip Marlowe,
> 
> Perhaps you misunderstood what I meant by "difficult."
> 
> ...


No problem George, I did misunderstand, and hope you get your money back as well.


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## capt Locknar (Dec 29, 2002)

Yeah take for example the PL refit Kit. How many were actually pulling out your micrometers the day it arrived to measure stuff. Sometimes fans can just be so nitpicky the model building hobby isn't even fun anymore. This is off by 1 one millionth of a millimeter, then they bad mouth it for that and then no one wants it. Its a model for crise sakes.


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## REL (Sep 30, 2005)

Yep, I agree with that Cap. The first time I saw it mentioned the refit studio model was "off" they lost me.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

DukeAlaric said:


> Chuck,
> 
> You are cynical.
> 
> ...


If you have been working since 2002 to help people receive refunds, etc then I do indeed sincerely apologize for characterizing you as someone coming late to our discussion of it. Though you have indeed come late to our discussion of it - that is not your fault.

I use terms like "alleged insiders" here because there are tons of pretenders that constantly show up on this board as well as others pretending to have inside info and new info only later to be proven quite wrong. 

Being new to this board you may not know too much about the incidences where that has happened here, but I'm sure you've probably seen the same thing over and over at countless other boards regardless of subject matter or genre.

Yep, like I warned, I'm probably overly cynical. 

But I always try to be unbiased as to trying to figure out why people decide to open up wounds like this one. 

A heck of a lot of people were burned for a product that many of them have been wanting to buy for decades

As I said, if you are just another victim of unscroupulous employer(s) you have no need to explain yourself here.

My conjecture as to perhaps ex-employees of the UnObtainium TOS E project working on the MR project was not meant to infer some deep dark conspiracy.

It arose from the statement you made that "Some of the best modelers and mold makers in Hollywood were hired to work on this product."

It seems likely that perhaps some of those people(probably guilty of nothing as far as the business end of the deal going sour) might also be employed on the MR project.

I was imagining some of the stigma that having been associated with UnObtainium may have caused their professional reputation.

I was *not* arguing that those artists *should* be stigmatized, only that it could have happened and still might happen to them in the future.


Yes, bringing up this subject in detail again did indeed arouse my suspicion. 
For that I do not feel I should apologize.

Since I granted in my own statement that these suspicions might be unwarranted, I don't believe I showed that there was any intent to be rude to you.

Considering how upset literally thousands of fans were about this, any attempts to even partially blame the failure on third parties like resin suppliers sets alarm bells off in my head. Bad resin that is too weak and *sweats* shows up pretty darn early in production.

That aside - I know sometimes people who notice such problems may not speak up early if it's not in their job description to do so, the idea that hundreds of sweating models got past quality control is mind boggling to me.

Again. You may not have had anything to do with that at all.
You may just, as you have said, be trying to shed more light on the process as it actually happened.

Something you have no obligation to do. I just hope the info is helpful and/or calming/satisfying enough to those who were ripped off for the wound to have been reopened.

This was clearly a case where both a licensee and Paramount stood by and allowed thousands of people to be screwed.

It's a testament to the effect that deregulation of businesses to the point where almost any business can be "self-insured"(i.e. have NO insurance) so that the heads of a corporation can still walk away with money while they screw their customers and employees.

Corporations need to be more tightly regulated or they will continue to become little more then state approved licenses to steal.

This was also a case where a licensor like Paramount profited from a license and yet was not held responsible for the acts of licensee, even though they are making a profit from them.

True, if the state of California had required Unobtainium to have proper reserves and/or insurance there might have been no need for Paramount to oversee the credentials of who used their name, but that didn't happen.

This entire Unobtainium fiasco has added to my cynicism, I readily admit to that. If that cynicism came across as rudeness for some reason I apologize for not being clearer.

I simply hope this info was satisfying enough for all of these issues/wounds to have been reopened. 

If it seemed to you I was attacking you personally rather then merely puzzled as to why it was all being brought up - even to the point of the resin issue being rehashed - let me assure you there was no attack. 

Only a healthy dose of curiosity and an attempt to understand where you were coming from. As well as a concern for what has become of the many fellow modelers and molders you spoke of as a result of their being involved with UnObtainium.

Some issues are very sensitive in the Trek community, and as you probably know this is one that sets people's radar off and gets people on edge every time someone discusses it.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

DukeAlaric said:


> Just as a note, frad, defraude, etc are pretty big words meaning that someone purposely set up a front to steal people's money under false pretenses.
> 
> Unobtainium, or at least while I was working there, had every intention of trying to deliver models and was working towards that goal, even as the ship was going down around us (or should I say drooping?).
> 
> ...


Intent is a curious thing. Nit-picked measurements should have never slowed down production. If it did that was the fault of UnObtainium's management, not the fans who didn't have the final say so. I'm not sure why you bring fan nitpicking into a discussion where so many countless cases of fraud occured. 

But back to intent.

The problem was that UnObtainium never reserved enough of it's income from sales to protect themselves from real-world hazards like "bad resin," for example.

Was the intent to defraud? Maybe it was from the beginning. Unobtainium's CEO and board certainly would never admit such a thing but there are fraudulent corporations and corporate practices that come and go each and every day. Did UnObtainium's corporate officers possess some unreproachable attributes that make this impossible to have been the case?

Was the intent to defraud? Maybe it wasn't.

Maybe it was a real world mixture where some of the corporate officers didn't get a damn as long as they got their salary and some did care.

Maybe the guys at the top didn't care and everyone else did.

No one can speak for everyone.

*What matters is the result.*

*Result does not prove intent - but it does prove where those who controlled the money's true CONCERNS laid.*

The result shows that not enough concern was given to quality control and real world production costs and not enough capital was devoted to fixing problems if problems occured in production.

If enough care and capital had been given to that end the defective pieces would have been replaced.

The only thing that can be measured is what CONCERNED the company the most. The results are clear evidence of what went wrong in the process.

A term you used earlier keeps echoing in my mind over and over. "... The best in Hollywood..." 

It's bugged me, but it hasn't struck me until just now as to why.

*You have not described a company of newbies who knew nothing about Resin model production and molding. You have described the artists working on the project as, in your words, "the best in Hollywood."*

*So they should have fully known the potential dangers of "bad resin" and/or insufficent armature.*

*These guys, "the best in Hollywood," should have tested their materials, resin, etc before going into full production.*

*If either they simply failed to do so, or failed to warn management about the dangers of not doing so, or if the management would not allow them the proper time to do tests they should have known should have been done, they all worked for the same company and UnObtainium was still responsible.*

*Had this been a company made up of newbies, who didn't know of the potential dangers of bad resin, etc, it actually would be more understandible*(though nonetheless still their fault for not putting aside enough funds for such mishaps).

Did the company assuming that everything would go rosily in the production process prove they intended to defraud people?

No. It does not.
But the intent to defraud doesn't change the facts.

If you promise someone a certain product and you do not produce it you HAVE defrauded them, whether you intended to or not - the result is the same.

A company can be guilty of fraud even if they didn't plan to defraud anyone.

Granted, if they also intended to defraud from the beginning they are also guilty of another seperate crime, but even if they could prove that they never meant to defraud the customer - if a company promises a certain product for a certain price and doesn't deliver they are still guilty of a crime.

Whether they intended to defraud someone or not a crime was committed in each unfulfilled sale(at least two I can think of).

The fact that no one can prove that they merrily intended fraud from the beginning doesn't lessen the severity of what they did.

*Again, these decisions might have been entirely out of the hands of artists such as yourself, George.*

Now that I have had time to think about your invitation, I do have a question: 

Did no one among the most talented modelers and molders in the business think to test their materials before going into mass production?

Or did they argue for time to do so and were prevented from doing so by UnObtainium's management?


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## toyroy (Jul 17, 2005)

PhilipMarlowe said:


> I'm sure if you ordered, say a washing machine from Home Depot, arranged to have it delivered, and they sent either a defective one, or nothing at all, you'd feel different. I don't think you'd be real happy if some store dweeb told you "Here's an idea: don't lay out money for something, unless you can take it with you, right then and there". And it's the exact same situation.
> 
> If that's how you do business fine. But I've been dealing online for years now, and it's the only pre-order where I've got nothing with no recourse. I've dealt with delays, production problems, etc, those things are part of doing business.
> 
> Most people are honest online because word travels quick when they aren't. Icons wasn't some overnight company, they delivered quality stuff for years before they suddenly folded.


No, your Home Depot analogy fails to recognize that the product is MADE, and ready to deliver. If defective, or undelivered, as you say, I have recourse.

What I'm saying is, don't lay out money for a product that does not yet even exist. Perhaps retail businesses feel it necessary to take such risks, but no end customer should. Even if the item is made, and sold out, there is always a secondary market. Better to pay more, and actually get something, than to gamble on getting nothing, with no recourse.


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## capt Locknar (Dec 29, 2002)

Does anyone know the company name that supplied the bad resin, I would sure hate to buy any bad resin.


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## Admiral Nelson (Feb 28, 2002)

*Dead horse*

Boy, if there was ever a thread in need of closing. Can you say dead horse beat to hell and back?


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

capt Locknar said:


> Does anyone know the company name that supplied the bad resin, I would sure hate to buy any bad resin.


Quite a good question.

I accidently mixed the wrong ratio of parts A & B once when I switched from resin mixed via volume versus weight. It sweated very slightly but almost immediately.

Doesn't resin that sweats usually sweat right from the beginning?

I'd honestly like to know as I haven't run in to the problem as much as perhaps some of you guys have.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

Admiral Nelson said:


> Boy, if there was ever a thread in need of closing. Can you say dead horse beat to hell and back?


There are a couple of good questions still hanging out there that could be usefull info on the subject.

I grant you, just a few, but since DukeAlaric has offered to give us some insider info I don't see the harm in a couple more questions being answered.

Capt Locknar is interested in not accidentally buying defective resin.

I'm wondering if the guys working on producing the UnObtainiums were ever given the opportunity to test their materials before ramping up production. Being the best in the business, they had to know of the potential problems in Resin model production to not want to make hundreds and hundreds of pulls without testing the materials they were using. 

If their managers told them the equivalent of "to heck with it, just put'em together as fast as you can" then that would say a heck of a lot about their management and owners' concerns about quality.


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## toyroy (Jul 17, 2005)

Admiral Nelson said:


> Boy, if there was ever a thread in need of closing. Can you say dead horse beat to hell and back?


With due respects, I'd like to hear as much as possible, from those involved.

My comments about not buying a pig-in-a-polk were not intended to shut down discussion. I just think fan-consumers have a tendency to disserve themselves, through their cash-throwing trustingness. 

My message is, let would-be producers secure their own capital, by way of bank loans, if necessary, and bring their finished product to market. Thus, THEY take the risk of failure, not the customer. That is the way for the fan to protect their own interests, and hold sellers accountable. :dude:


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## PhilipMarlowe (Jan 23, 2004)

toyroy said:


> My comments about not buying a pig-in-a-polk were not intended to shut down discussion. I just think fan-consumers have a tendency to disserve themselves, through their cash-throwing trustingness.


If all you're building is AMT or Revell car kits, you are in good shape. But if you looking for more exotic import, resin and garage kits pre-orders are a way of life. And the majority do get filled. People pre-order cars, electronics, DVD's, it's a fact of life. Having a house built is nothing but a pre-order.

But again, I don't think it's fair to blame the customer for taking advantage of a pre-order _offered from the buyer_. The fan-consumer has kept his part of the contract in the examples in this thread, the buyer hasn't.


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## DukeAlaric (Apr 26, 2006)

Ok there have been a lot questions asked, and I'll do the best I can to answer all of them, if I missed something, ask again.

Regarding the brand of resin- I can see the box (cans) in my head, but I can't remember the company name right now, I'll try and find out though. It was the same company that made the injection machine, though, and not a standard "buy a gallon of resin" company. 

Original ideas regarding the resin that were bounced around at various times were 1) to cast parts in clear, and then to paint them so windows didn't have to be added in, 2) use a resin that was tinted to be close to the appropriate color when dry, so some painting could be cut down on. Different ideas were offered by the employees regarding resin, but they were in deference to the "experts" at the injection machine company. Although I can't remember the name off the top of my head, I don't think this brand of resin is commonly used in the modeling hobby so I wouldn't worry about running across it too much, as I haven't seen it anywhere since.

The amount of time between prototype and attempts at ful speed production were not necessarily very long. Production molds on this project were made from Silicone, which everyone knows can either last for 1-2 pulls, or maybe up to 100+, but the silicone certainly has a limited lifespan. 

Production time frame on the project was something like-
Spring 2001- License gotten from Paramount. License has a limited time frame of 1 or two years, I believe to coincide with the 35th anniversary of the show. 

Summer 2001- prototype built and various production options explored. Prototype takes longer to build than expected (doesn't that usually happen?).
Decision made for production to be done in the United States by Hollywood professionals and people trained in the shop to work on the models. 
Prototype debuts at Comic-Con. This is an unlit model.
After Comic-Con the prototype is refinished, and final production decisions are made. Over the course of the summer, the design is finalized on paper, including internal structure, how the parts will interlock, etc. 

Summer/Fall 2001- Modellers continue to spruce up the originals for molding, right up until the very last minute.

The decision is made to purchase a resin injecting machine, and while working with the "experts" at the company a resin is decided on. Originally this resin was to be a gray color, but either the final decision or the because the company was unable to produce the color wanted, was that the resin was a reddish, bondo looking color (I am willing to bet Matt's ship actually has a resin that is white or off white, and I think it was made by silpak. I believe that somewhere out there is at least one ship that was done in alumilite). The resin, ultimately, will not perform as promised, not only does it leach, but its structutal integrity is lacking (droops and splits). Due to several factors the issues with it are not found until it is too late.

Fall 2001 Parts start being produced. Final electronics are worked out and start being added into the appropriate ships. Everything is moving much more slowly than originally anticipated. Orders start coming in for the Christmas season. For some reason the first bunch of ships (this is not a lot of ships mind you) don't work out right, so they re-do a bunch of the prototype parts and re-make the silicone molds, again- right when production should be at its highest. Gang molds were not produced for the larger parts (saucer, etc) so they could only be made "so fast," but not at a rate that was impossible to complete the run in a reasonable amount of time, but not fast enough to make up for any unseen delays...

Winter 2002- At this point, there was not time for continued R&D, or a long enough gap to have seen how the resin on these ships was failing. It was a long slow process. The leaching issue was first noticed on one ship, thought to be an isolated incident. When leaching starts, it turns out that it takes 2-3 weeks minimum for the leaching to be visible. On the tight production schedule that this is being done on, that is a long time. Middle of January, the leaching issue starts being obvious. It is around this period that I start working with the company full time. 

The first issue I have to resolve is one of shipping, as the ships keep getting busted in transit (something breaks of a nacelle, etc). Although specialized packaging had been bought, it had not been adequately tested. Shipping issue is mostly resolved.

Most production issues are resolved, and production can continue at speed, provided there are no more problems...

New resin tests start being done, production has to be slowed down to take this into account. The resin was really only leaching in areas that had to be sanded down. Advantage is taken of the slow down in production and several design modifications are made to make a better quality ship. 

Money gets tight for the first time. A few of the trained employees leave, resulting in another slow down in production. Several of the top guys go to work for Stan Winston on T3, and other big shows in town. First calls asking where the product is start coming in, and the first refunds are given.

Tensions between the employees and owners run high. Tension between the two "top dogs" at the company run high, and they eventually stop talking to one another in late winter. 

Late Winter/Spring 2002

Many of the production issues are finally solved, and it looks like production is able to start up again at full speed. Unfortunately cash is low, so many of the top employees leave the company. Production slows again. Alternate production means- having the ships made in China- are explored. Eventually the Chinese and their American reps turn the project down. I am unsure if this is due to their not liking the project, the time frame involved, or their realizing that Unobtainium might not have the $'s to pony up for everything up front to the tune of several hundred thousand dollars minimum.

At this time, the Spider Man products are being finalized, and I shift over to them. They turn out just fine, and I am sure that many of them are still out there. Although not as popular as hoped, the products look great, and work great as well. 

Spring 2002

Production is brought slowly back up to speed. The new resins that are being used look like they have solved the leaching issue. Spider Man money alleviates the money issue for a little while. Calls start coming in at a more rapid pace questioning where product is. It is apparent that there is not enough money in the kitty to cover the cost of all the refunds that are being asked for. 

(Sometime in March, early April) A moratorium on new orders of the ships is put in place- not that there were many/any new orders coming in at this point in any case.

Men In Black replicas are being worked on. Although everything is going well on them, lack of funding ultimately makes several of these products (J2 Neuralyzer) die on the vine, but over the next 6-8 months a Noisy Cricket model is produced that actually might have been one of the better prop replicas ever made http://www.monstersinmotion.us/statues/21mib01.html although I was no longer with the company when it came out, so I am not too familiar with it. 

Early Summer 2002

Company starts going downhill rapidly. The "Top Dogs" of the company are on terrible terms, employees are not getting paid. Rick continues to buy expensive original props even though everyone tells him that this is bad for business. The Spider Man stuff is working out fine, but sales are dismally low- probably because the web shooters that had been originally part of the film were cancelled and all that was available were pumpkin bombs and newspapers, and the goblin spear/trident. 

There is not much that can be done regarding the Enterprise at this point. More employees leave. Calls are coming in in droves wanting refunds, etc. After the purchase of yet another major prop and license by Rick, I resign from the company, and file with the Employment Department for back pay. Months later when my case eventually comes up, Rick decides to file for bankruptcy protection (same day) rather than have to appear at the proceeding and pay up.


One thing to consider is that Hollywood guys do not equal production guys. They can make great models and things that look good on screen, but then can fall apart 20 minutes later and no one cares. So even though they had skills, etc, their experience did not necessarily transfer over as well as could have been expected.

The company was in some ways rather small. The Corporate officers, owners, head of production, etc were all the same people. They were, in some ways very unapproachable. They both were very strongminded, and had their own ideas about how things should be done (my way or the highway types) and this ultimately lead to a brekdown in communication between the two. As I have said before I don't believe that the intent was to defraud. If sales had gone even reaonably well, the investestment should/would have paid off quite well, and was certainly worth pursuing. 

There were not long term tests made on the resin. The test pulls came out looking good, and there was some reason to believe that the resin sold to the company was "good" so the parts were put into production. There was a reasonably high level of quality control, but trying to play catch up ball, and the pressures put on the employees to achieve too much often compromised that. The modellers and moldmakers argued for many things, other resins, different processes, etc, but were overruled at the top. Using metal molds and either injection molded plastic or other resins were looked into, but the time frame on getting the molds made, and production started would have thrown off production and put the release date after Christmas 2001, so the in house method of production was used. In hindsight, if this process had been followed instead, I think that the Unobtainium story would have been very different. The anxiousness of the owners to get product to market pushed this possibility out of the way until it was just too late in the game to be the Cavalry saving the day.

Interestingly enough, after Fall of 2001, I do not believe that the the corporate officers did not pay themselves salaries. There wasn't enough money to go around. Now, I honestly have never sat down with the books and done all the math. I am not an accountant. So I don't know where all the money went. It could have gone anywhere. I think, though, when you apply for Bankruptcy, you have to turn over the books, so they may be a matter of record at this point.

George


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## DukeAlaric (Apr 26, 2006)

There were bank loans involved. The problem was that the product was not finished before orders were taken. Rather than suck it up and hold off until the product was done, the owners wanted to make sure that 1) they caught the Christmas market, and 2) put out product during the lifespan of the license, which they were obligated to do, and was a timeframe that they were not supposed to violate. This is part of what caused the rush, and the use of in house production methods rather than shipping off the prototype parts to a manufacturer to be made.

This is the area that Paramount did eventually come in on. I do not know if Paramount officially shut down production, but I know that that was a possibility around the time I was leaving the company.

George


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

^^Excellent points, Toyroy! :thumbsup: 

BTW: It's pig-in-a-poke (as in poke-bag).


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## toyroy (Jul 17, 2005)

PerfesserCoffee said:


> BTW: It's pig-in-a-poke (as in poke-bag).


Thanks, PerfesserCoffee. Aside from that expression, I never hear, or see, 'poke' used in that sense. Even the definition of 'pig in a poke' in my Webster's doesn't mention it.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

toyroy said:


> Thanks, PerfesserCoffee. Aside from that expression, I never hear, or see, 'poke' used in that sense. Even the definition of 'pig in a poke' in my Webster's doesn't mention it.


Glad to help.  You were using the expression correctly which is the main thing.


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## toyroy (Jul 17, 2005)

PhilipMarlowe said:


> If all you're building is AMT or Revell car kits, you are in good shape. But if you looking for more exotic import, resin and garage kits pre-orders are a way of life. And the majority do get filled. People pre-order cars, electronics, DVD's, it's a fact of life. Having a house built is nothing but a pre-order.
> 
> But again, I don't think it's fair to blame the customer for taking advantage of a pre-order _offered from the buyer_. The fan-consumer has kept his part of the contract in the examples in this thread, the buyer hasn't.


Yes, there are situations where a deposit is required up-front. In many of these situations, one has legal recourse. Dealing with a contractor, in building a house, is a good example. There are other situations, where no legal recourse exists. Then, it becomes a question of the solvency of the business.

I'm not blaming anyone. It's just that many pre-paying fans don't know they have no recourse, until it is too late. They don't know they are taking a gamble. 

There are conscientious businesses, who will take your name for a pre-order, but not accept a deposit. There should be some standard good business practices, like this, endorsed by fan, or hobby groups. It does no one good, when a fan gets burned.


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## DukeAlaric (Apr 26, 2006)

I think there is also a big difference between a good faith deposit, and paying in full up front. 

George


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## Tiberious (Nov 20, 2001)

I want to keep this going too. I'm one of the Unfortunate Unobtainiums. As it became more and more obvious that I was about to lose my money I called and emailed often. Rick and the entire crew assured me up until they vanished that I had nothing to fear. If for nothing else, I have issues with that dishonesty. Whether it was Rick's alone, keeping his employees in the dark, or an outright lie by all involved I'm willing to suspend judgement on.

In any case, my name's Jim Pierce, had an Ultimate Enterprise bought and paid for and never saw a thing except a letter proclaiming bankruptcy and letters from Paramount absolving themselves of responsibility as I pursued it through them, the BBB, the California Bar Association, etc.


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## toyroy (Jul 17, 2005)

Tiberious said:


> I want to keep this going too. I'm one of the Unfortunate Unobtainiums. As it became more and more obvious that I was about to lose my money I called and emailed often. Rick and the entire crew assured me up until they vanished that I had nothing to fear. If for nothing else, I have issues with that dishonesty. Whether it was Rick's alone, keeping his employees in the dark, or an outright lie by all involved I'm willing to suspend judgement on.
> 
> In any case, my name's Jim Pierce, had an Ultimate Enterprise bought and paid for and never saw a thing except a letter proclaiming bankruptcy and letters from Paramount absolving themselves of responsibility as I pursued it through them, the BBB, the California Bar Association, etc.


Sorry to hear that. For the sake of their name, Paramount should have some licensing policies in place, to see to it that no customer of licensed merchandise ever loses money, if the merchandise is not delivered, or is sub-standard.

So far, that is apparently not the case. Folks have been similarly burned, pre-paying Irwin Allen merchandise. I don't hear these sorts of complaints regarding Disney, or Warner Bros. merchandise. It just wouldn't do, for customer fraud, due to lax licensing, to stain the reputation of Mickey Mouse, or Bugs Bunny.


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## DukeAlaric (Apr 26, 2006)

I recall that Paramount did shut down the Palisades toys production of the Capt Kirk and Gene Roddenberry toys mentioned here: http://actionfigures.about.com/library/press/bl0701startrek.htm

I believe that they were unhappy with the product and their release schedule. This happened at the same time Unobtainium was having similar problems.

I didn't work with the Paramount people, only Rick did, so I don't know how or why he was able to keep the production gong for so long without getting shut down. With the Spider Man products we were able to hit our release windows and get everything out on time and at a very nice quality level. The Enterprise as a first product was probably too tough for them to have taken on.

As far as the Enterprise went, we all tried our best, Rick too for a time I am sure, but as it dawned on each of us that the project was going to fail for one reason or another, we all started leaving the company, all of us with a loss of wages, time etc. As many of the employees found out the hard way when they went to apply for Unemployment, Rick hadn't been paying into the unemployment fund, taxes, etc, so there was no record of our having worked there (short of checks written to us for partial pay, etc), and subsequently the employees were unable to get any sort of benefits. I know at least one or 2 employees who got in trouble with their divorce settlements because the wages that were supposed to be garnished through this system were not paid, and they suddenly found themselves several months behind on child support and similar payments.

It was a crappy thing for pretty much everyone involved. I don't know who ended up with all the real props, costumes, etc, but I bet it was Rick though.

Sorry to hear about your loss Jim, I don't remember who all got their money back and who didn't. 

George


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