# ST TMP Klingon K'tinga - Is it really purple?



## Sparky (Feb 21, 2004)

For my "warm-up" project before the 1/350 Refit, I am working on a 
lighted AMT Star Trek TMP Klingon Cruiser. My question is about the true
color of the studio model, is it mainly shades of green and brown or is there
a purple/violet coloration as shown in photo over at the Model Citizen site 
http://employees.csbsju.edu/rsorensen/modelcitizen/trekships/klingons/ktinga_deck.jpg

Purple/violet color looks kinda cool to me, but not sure if that is accurate
or just a color shifted photo. Thoughts?

Still might consider painting my model those colors even if that photo is not
accurate, but really curious nevertheless.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

Based on the shadowing it doesn't look like a flash was used.
Try first filtering for incandescent, then flourescent, then see if either of those makes the model look closer to the green/brown.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Don't think that's the correct color. Check out some of the other photos to get an idea of its true coloration.


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## phicks (Nov 5, 2002)

There are some photos of the STTMP Ktinga that have the same purplish hue as the photo you linked. But they were all photos taken before the model was redetailed for the movie - look at the round domes on top of the head in the picture you linked, and note the absence of greeblies on it. The purple shade may indeed have been its colour at some point between the Phase II TV project, and STTMP before Doug Trumball took over the SPFX, or it may just be an artifact of the lighting.

All reports I have read say the Ktinga model for STTMP was green, although it seems nobody took a picture outside in natural sunlight to nail down the colour. It looks rather blue in the scenes with Veejur, possibly from spill from the bluescreen, or from being contrasted against Veejur's blue clouds.


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

That photo had some hue adjustment. Another low rez version of it can be seen here:
http://www.thomasmodels.com/ktinga/320x2401.jpg

Ortho views of the model, before final detailing for TMP can be seen here:
http://www.thomasmodels.com/ktinga/ktinga-model2b.jpg


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## omnimodel (Oct 9, 2004)

Thomas, thanks for the awesome reference pic!

On a side note, while watching the Director's cut of TMP I noticed during a couple of the side shots that ther appears to be some aztecing on the K'Tinga as well. I think some interference green over that flat green may duplicate the effect...


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## Sparky (Feb 21, 2004)

ThomasModels said:


> Ortho views of the model, before final detailing for TMP can be seen here:
> http://www.thomasmodels.com/ktinga/ktinga-model2b.jpg


That second link is a great reference photo. My thanks as well. Would 
mixing slight amounts of silver paint to those colors produce a look that would
approximate the silvery looking Klingon ship as it appears on film? That silvery color on screen gives the Klingon Crusier a much more intimidating appearance.


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## Babaganoosh (Dec 16, 2004)

Ship adjusted for your viewing pleasure


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## Sparky (Feb 21, 2004)

Babaganoosh said:


> Ship adjusted for your viewing pleasure


Simply amazing what's hiding under there once the purple peel is performed .


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

omnimodel said:


> Thomas, thanks for the awesome reference pic!


Ditto! :thumbsup:


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## X15-A2 (Jan 21, 2004)

TMP model was various shades of green. I handled the model shortly after the movie had wrapped up so take my word for it.

Phil


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

^^ Can't do much better than that for confirmation of its true colors! :thumbsup:


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## jbond (Aug 29, 2002)

I wonder though if it was blue or purple before the new detail job--there are several photos of the ship (including the one used for the original ERTL model kit box cover) that have that look and that show the undetailed bridge dome. It does look like the overall paneling pattern was retained so maybe it's unlikely but remember that the original model always read as blueish on TOS so the first pass at the model might have been interpreted that way.


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## TheYoshinator! (Apr 2, 2004)

OKay, I didn't chime in before since Mr. Broad put it to rests. But now I'm not so sure?
Are you refering to the FINAL version (as filmed), the ALMOST FINAL version that has the all the same detail as the FINAL except the 'Dome' was smoother with less detail (as seen in the publicity stills), OR are you refering to it as it was made for Phase II?

They are all the same model underneath. However if you're refering to it as initially made for Phase II, I've only seen one pic of it and it does appear to be mauve (light purple). It's a very small pic in the '80 American Cinematographer ST:TMP issue.

The later 2 versions are as Mr. Broad described.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

^^ Is the Phase II Klingon ship photo available anywhere?


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## trevanian (Jan 30, 2004)

PerfesserCoffee said:


> ^^ Is the Phase II Klingon ship photo available anywhere?


You'd have to look at STARLOG 27 or maybe the AC piece to be sure, but I'm pretty sure the ship hadn't even been built when Phase II was cancelled. Magicam had the contract, but I think they'd only built the dock and a different vger and started on some other stuff when it got upgraded to movie status. The smooth skinned klingon ship was their first pass at it for TMP under abel and taylor, and the uberdetailing was done at Apogee more than a year later, months after Abel was off the show. This is supported by the magicam pics in STARLOG that show them painting a seemingly near finished klingon which is totally smooth.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

^^ Cool! Thanks for the info!


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## justinleighty (Jan 13, 2003)

It seems that I remember there was going to be a D-7 in Phase II, but that they repainted the original D-7 into a more varied paint scheme to get that effect (I could be wrong on that, though). The K'Tinga, of course, was an entirely new model.


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

Same model as Phase II. Completely reworked.


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

Sorry guys. That isn't quite right.

There was one model built which has been 'refit' three times for a total of four incarnations. The base model and the first was built and completed for Phase II. It has classic warp nacelles, lit bridge platform and scribed panel lines all over the top and bottom of the secondary hull. These scribed lines have remained on all versions of the model.

For TMP, the 'second' version was built on the same model with new surface detailing and nacelles added. This version was photographed and was shown on the original AMT box. The AMT kit was based on this version. Those pics can also be seen around the net including the one posted in this thread. It can be identified by it's smooth bridge area.

Additional close up work would be shot on the model, so Apogee added more detail for the 'third' version. It had additional detail added to the bridge area, to the secondary hull, front, top, bottom, and sides.








The engines were also detailed additionally. Separate larger close up model sections were built for extreme close ups on the Secondary hull top Hangar, and the forward section of the engine.









The 'fourth' version was the same base model refit for TMP. It had additional detail added, the engines were extensively modified. The model was completely repainted in grays and reds and fine photo etch detail was added all over the model's surface.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Any photographs of the Phase II version, Thomas? What details were lacking on the Phase II?


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## phicks (Nov 5, 2002)

Oooo! Thomas! Where did that middle picture of the enlarged hanger deck come from ? That's the first Ktinga photo I have seen that really looks green.


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

PerfesserCoffee said:


> Any photographs of the Phase II version, Thomas? What details were lacking on the Phase II?


I have one around here, somewhere.

I'll see if I can find it and post it.


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

Here it is:


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## trevanian (Jan 30, 2004)

What's your source for the construction of the phase 2 ship? I'm more than idly interested, given that Probert's visit to Magicam, relatively early (?) in the construction phase for the ship, was when he noticed the neck was crooked on the boom, and when he pointed this out he became persona non grata there. I figured that happening as early 78, since Abel wasn't on the show till xmas 77 or so, months after phase 2 was scrapped. 

Could magicam have built the first klingon ship version (and finish it before Don Loos/Brick Price even managed to finish the E, even though they had started much earlier) in fall of 77, and then nobody noticed the defect for six months? Given the folks in charge at Paramount at the time (at any time come to think of it), maybe so!


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

I believe that there's information on it's construction in "The Art of Star Trek", tho might be wrong. I'm at work right now, so can't verify immediately. 

Regardless, in my experience, Thomas usually comes by his information directly from the sources, thus comes by it honestly. He's told me a few things over the years that were later verified in print - not that I was doubting him early on. Where do you get _your_ information that one was "never constructed"...?


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Trek Ace said:


> I have one around here, somewhere.
> 
> I'll see if I can find it and post it.


I love you man!  

Thanks! That's great! :thumbsup: It's essentially a souped up TOS version but with K'tinga proportions to the body.


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## TheYoshinator! (Apr 2, 2004)

^^ Yes, that's the one from the American Cinematographer issue.

Btw, it would be very sensable that the K'tinga was built first, irregarless whomever did it since it wasn't going to be changed in design. Therefore they could have gotten to contructing it sooner. The Enterprise was going to be changed so it took longer to work out. But that's just speculation and rationalising on my part.

Thanks for your input, Thomas.

I'm also curious about the larger stand-in photo. It's reasonable to believe that they were painted the same color, but it's also possible they didn't- knowing the f/x industry. Can you tell us if the person you got that from or anyone else said they used the same paints?

The reason I ask is that all photos I've seen suggest it was painted sort or that oxidised penny look. You know, that blue-green color just not so pale as a penny?

Gah it's so hard to describe...

Most of those shots I've seen where taken in sunlight so that may be why.

*shrug*

-James

Btw, I just wanted to add. It's very interesting to see the colors on that stand-in look so much like the colors on the ST:III Bird of Prey. How neat!


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## trevanian (Jan 30, 2004)

Griffworks said:


> I believe that there's information on it's construction in "The Art of Star Trek", tho might be wrong. I'm at work right now, so can't verify immediately.
> 
> Regardless, in my experience, Thomas usually comes by his information directly from the sources, thus comes by it honestly. He's told me a few things over the years that were later verified in print - not that I was doubting him early on. Where do you get _your_ information that one was "never constructed"...?


There's precious little useful text in ART OF TREK, but maybe you mean those same authors' PHASE 2 book? That one is a little better, but still misses out on a lot of stuff, by focusing just on Brick Price's end and almost excluding Magicam altogether. The writers (the Reeves-Stevenses) are wonderful superb trek novelists, but their makingof stuff is, to me anyway, a real jumbled mess of errors (though some of that relates to printer errors I imagine, such as getting sequenced illustrations out of sequence.)

To answer your question, I get my info the same way everybody else does, by reading up on the stuff. 

Also, since TMP is a kind of fascinating train wreck to me (always has been, though it took me a few years to enjoy watching it), I've made a point of asking folks about it who worked on it anytime I had to do an article that required interviewing tmp vets. I've written for CFQ and Cinefex and American Cinematographer and International Cinematographers Guild and Markee and HOTDOG and the since-defunct CGI, mostly about fx work, so the same names do keep coming up again and again.

A couple years ago I talked to a freelance news stringer who happened to work on TMP under both Abel and Trumbull, and got some good stuff from him (at Abel's, he worked on Con 2001 Pederson's version of the bridge intruder probe, which would been something akin to a dimensional light sculpture); years before that, I'd often find folks running fx companies who 20 years earlier had TMP among their earliest jobs. It is a real RASHOMON thing, with most folks remembering the same events in a variety of different ways, at least on the fx end. 

Like most folks who seem haunted or entranced by TMP, I anxiously await the 25 year overdue treatise on the making of TMP by Preston Neal Jones, who was supposed to do a double issue of CFQ on TMP back in 1980, but didn't get paid. He has posted a few places about this, and I guess he has an 1800 page manuscript that covers damn near everything, but there is an issue with publishing it, since Pocket usually throttles rival publishers that try to do trek, and I can't imagine Pocket itself going for something that is probably a warts&all look.

EDIT ADDON: If the klingon ship was first finished for phase 2, I'm guessing it is based on the molds done from the Smithsonian loan-out? They did, what, a straight times-two sizedup, or something like that. Either on this board or elsewhere, there was something about the size of the TOS Kling being longer than advertised, so that may not ring quite true come to think of it. And I guess Taylor's wish at Abel to have a 7 ft kling might have been part of the idea of discarding all phase2 aspects to start fresh or make TMP into more of a 'Robert Abel production' than a 'Robert Wise film,' which has often been the claim in the past.


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## portland182 (Jul 19, 2003)

So starting with a basically green model, why is it tending to look metalic blue (To me) in the film STMP?

Also how come the Vulcan warp sled shuttle is violet and yet looks bronze?

I understand they may have lit it strangely, but if you want it blue, surely you paint it blue?

Cheers

Jim


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

portland182 said:


> I understand they may have lit it strangely, but if you want it blue, surely you paint it blue?


Depends on when you determine that you want it blue. If it's after the model is painted, then lighting may be manipulated to get the look one wants on film.


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## phicks (Nov 5, 2002)

Some colour changes are unintentional too. The TOS Enterprise appeared to have a blue shade to it because of splash from the bluescreen background.

Conversely, Andy Probert wanted the Enterprise-D to have a blue tinge to be evocative of the TOS appearance. So, the model was painted a blueish gray. But the way the lighting was done, it always just looked gray.


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## justinleighty (Jan 13, 2003)

portland182 said:


> Also how come the Vulcan warp sled shuttle is violet and yet looks bronze?


Bronze? Looks gray to me on screen.


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## trevanian (Jan 30, 2004)

Probert wanting the vulcan ship to look striking and different, imagining what that odd color would look like in vulcan airspace as I recall. I'm pretty sure they didn't repaint it, it was just color-corrected like crazy to get it back to the beige-grey whatever it wound up.

If you can find STARLOG's SFX VOLUME 5, there is a huge piece by him in it, covering TMP and TNG, with some good art (he supplied a ton of art for ART OF STAR TREK, but they printed a number of his pieces out of sequence. He has a website too, but I forget the name. Lotsa stuff there as well.)

As for the klingon ship color, I think some of it may involve pulling one of the color records to minimize matte lines. The TIE fighters in ANH only wound up looking white grey because the optical guy, Blalack I think, wound up throwing away the blue record to make the matte lines less noticeable. I guess they refined the process on EMPIRE, because suddenly the TIE ships are this (IMO) over the top tacky blue, which is how they stayed in JEDI too. 

If you look at the shots of the klingon ship in CINEFEX 2, the color doesn't seem to match the movie either ... the ship looks green or brown in the stills (of course, I'm colorblind, so maybe I'm seeing it differently.)


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## TheYoshinator! (Apr 2, 2004)

^^ I see an opportunity to ask. Does anyone have scans of the pics in CINEFEX 2?

All I have are the b&w photocopies that you can order from CINEFEX.


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## phicks (Nov 5, 2002)

Scans of the STTMP article from Cinefex #2 are available on Starshipbuilder.com under the Ktinga thread.


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## TheYoshinator! (Apr 2, 2004)

^^ Hah, I totaly forgot about that! I do have those, I just forgot about them. Thanks for the reminder.


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## portland182 (Jul 19, 2003)

justinleighty said:


> Bronze? Looks gray to me on screen.


Yeah, Sorry I was probably thinking of the picture on the kit box!

Jim


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