# If there was any doubt...



## Pete McKay (Dec 20, 2006)

...that he lucked into a Daytona 500 win, it should be pretty obvious this evening.

Matt Kenseth IS going to be the driver to watch. I know there's 30-something races to go, but this is Matt's season. 

Now. On to Las Vegas.


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## PD2 (Feb 27, 2003)

THAT was a race! Wow! I thought Gordon might be able to come back with the better car, but got as close as Matt's bumper and that was it! Definitely a proven and deserved win on Matt's part!

Only thing cooler would have been seeing Kyle pull the trifecta - 3rd is not bad for the weekend he had too.

AWESOME race!

PD2:thumbsup:


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## Crimnick (May 28, 2006)

So how long until the let KIA and Hundai race?


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## brownie374 (Nov 21, 2007)

after the big 3 go belly up!


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## Montoya1 (May 14, 2004)

And what harm would it do?


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## PD2 (Feb 27, 2003)

I doubt it will happen that the big 3 will go away, but, its nothing to put a new sticker on the front of these cars. LOL! Unfortunately, Toyota has proven that this is template racing and there is nothing stock about it any more. Anyone go to their local Toyota dealership and find a Camry that looks like the one at the races?

Regardless, as I've said before, as long as it has 4 wheels and races, I'll watch it and enjoy.

PD2:thumbsup:


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## roadrner (Jul 21, 1999)

PD2 said:


> Unfortunately, Toyota has proven that this is template racing and there is nothing stock about it any more. Anyone go to their local Toyota dealership and find a Camry that looks like the one at the races?
> 
> PD2:thumbsup:


Definitely not like the old days of early NASCAR that ran from the 50's through the mid 80's. You could tell those cars apart a mile away.  rr


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## rideinstile (Dec 26, 2007)

Just as soon as you can go to a Ford Dealership and find a Taurus *COUPE!!!*:wave:


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## tjettim (Nov 29, 2005)

I will have to admit,I have never owned a foriegn car.
But after watching Nascar and the Toyota comercials,
a Toyota will be included in the list of cars for comparison
for my next automobile purchase.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

> Now. On to Las Vegas.


The Great Sin City Sacrifice! Ouch. Time to put that smoky meltdown in the desert basin behind them. I'd say it's Hello Atlanta time! As the first hauler to arrive in Hampton, GA, due to their 3+ hour head start, finding a parking space should be very easy for the 17 team. If engine reliability was an issue in Vegas for the Sprint teams, and if they haven't found the root cause of the failures, it's going to be an even tougher weekend in Atlanta. But as the 48 team demonstrated last year, the regular season is just a 26 race test & tune for the playoffs. Work those bugs out now boys, while there is still time to make the real show.


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## tjettim (Nov 29, 2005)

I wonder what NASCAR will do to the chase rules if 
JR doesn't make the chase this year.


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## Grampa Ho (Feb 25, 2009)

My ? is what will NASCAR do to tweak the system if Matt wins a bunch and runs away with the title. Make second place the big point winner?


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## Crimnick (May 28, 2006)

Grampa Ho said:


> My ? is what will NASCAR do to tweak the system if Matt wins a bunch and runs away with the title. Make second place the big point winner?


Trumped by the magical mystery caution.


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## Pete McKay (Dec 20, 2006)

Yeah, well if Matt hadn't tortured his mill in practice. S'Ok, we're still in the top 5. 

I have been, AND always will be an advocate of "take 'em off the showroom floor and build 'em from there" racing. Ford has been talking about a Fusion coupe for a while but right now it's a good selling car (unlike the 500 which had to change it's name and is still tanking). I'd rather see a production based racing rule for NASCAR but much like fuel injection, it will never happen.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

> take 'em off the showroom floor and build 'em from there


That would certainly be something to see. Depending on what was allowed it could be very technically challenging. For the Ford Fusion, which is based on the Mazda 6, this would mean a 3.5L V6 and automatic at best. If a manual transmission was required, it would drop the engine down to a 2.5L four banger. Front wheel drive and four doors. The Toyota Camry would not be any better off. The Chevy and Dodge cars would seemingly have a big advantage with their V8s and rear wheel drive layouts. I have no doubt that the engine builders and engineers of the V6 cars could find a way to get some serious horsepower from their smaller engines, but it would depend on what modifications were allowed.

The real zinger would be if they required the cars to keep their stock seating configuration and carry as many passengers as the auto makers claim the vehicle can carry. That would add bathroom breaks to the overall race strategy.


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## slotcarman12078 (Oct 3, 2008)

AfxToo said:


> The real zinger would be if they required the cars to keep their stock seating configuration and carry as many passengers as the auto makers claim the vehicle can carry. That would add bathroom breaks to the overall race strategy.



Read using your best Bart Simpson and Homer voices.....

Can we pit yet? No!!!! Can we pit yet??? NO!!! Can we pit yet?!?!?! NO!!!! LOLOLOL


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

*Eeeeeexcellent (Mr. Burns Voice)*

Let's just make it mandatory that they have to fill all the seats by hauling their own pit crew around.

....OR ya have to change yer own tires with the factory knuckle buster!

"Now mash the velocerator Smithers!"


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## slotcarman12078 (Oct 3, 2008)

And add a required Chinese fire drill every 25 laps too.... :lol:


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## Pete McKay (Dec 20, 2006)

And a woman in the front passenger seat complaining on how they're going to get lost.


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## fordcowboy (Dec 27, 1999)

Dont forget the gps. screaming kids and you have to cell phone the pits no hands free.lol:woohoo:


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## Dranoel Dragon (Oct 9, 2007)

I think JJ summed up NAStyCAR perfectly when they interviewed him as he drove pace laps for the start. "Sit back, relax, and enjoy the *show*." He didn't say "race" he said "Show" and that is all NAStyCAR is now. And the whole Digger cartoon thing really put me off this week.

Racing is a sport. NAStyCAR is not.


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

Citi group reports a profit today. I guess Matt will keep them as a sponsor?


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## Mexkilbee (Apr 17, 2008)

I don't know if this fits here but since it was mentioned earlier about back in the day when NASCAR raced "Stock" cars. I just watched over the wekend two classics, "Six Pack" and "Stroker Ace" . It was nice seeing "real" stock cars from the end of the golden age (there is a lot of great stock footage, and personalities). The wife even said she would watch more races with me if that was what they were racing today. 
She asked me, "When did it go bad for Nascar". Thats when i hopped up off the couch and threw in a copy of "Days of Thunder" She new right away what i was talking about because even she said "Hey, arn't those Luminas' front wheel drive" She had one a while back. 
Sorry, I'll go sit in the back.


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

I guess Matt will be glad to be off the short tracks?


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## afxgns (Jul 6, 2006)

Dranoel Dragon said:


> Racing is a sport. NAStyCAR is not.



Racing has NEVER been a "sport" It's always been a show and always will be.

The fewer folks in the stands, the more it's a sport. SCCA, Bonneville, Go carts, Club racers, All of these are VERY close to "sport". All the rest is a show.

J.M.H.O.


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## TomH (Jan 17, 2006)

These are race cars? get it? Just like we do with our slot cars, they have restrictions as to size, weight, cubic inches on and on. In the interest of fairness there are rules. Times have changed. Do you still think you can drive a street stock to the track and back home after the race? Do Nascar drivers win a race with an average speed of 75MPH five laps ahead of the field anymore? Did you know that NASCAR wouldn't let Toyota use their successful Nascar truck motor in a cup car and they had to develop a completely new design? I am not a Totota fan, but I thought that was out of line. Doesn't stop me from watching. Do you think you can drop a formula 1 engine in a pick up truck or a Nascar motor in a Camary and drive it to work? Race cars people! Nascar is what it is, SCCA and Formula 1, INDY car and the rest are what they are. The race today in Martinsville as compared to F1 in Australia is comparing apples to oranges. I happened to watch them both. I thought the Nascar race was more exciting. But I have seen some great formula races. I don't hear anybody saying that formula one needs to start racing open wheel model T's, Stuts, and Stanley steamers, or indy cars go back to running offy's? Save all that for the nostalgia races.


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## resinmonger (Mar 5, 2008)

Ooooohhhhh, wouldn't be really cool if Formula One started racing old school cars with wire wheels and skinny tires like the 1908 French Grand Prix winning Mercedes? 

http://www.supercars.net/cars/2116.html

Or how 'bout Indy throwing down with the past like the Marmon Wasp? Ray Harroun burned up the brick yard with a blistering 6 hours, 42 minutes and 8 seconds time in winning the 1911 race. 

http://www.marmon.com/MarmonWasp.asp?wasp=true&About=true

Man, all the cool stuff is like a hundred years old!


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## martybauer31 (Jan 27, 2004)

afxgns said:


> Racing has NEVER been a "sport" It's always been a show and always will be.
> 
> The fewer folks in the stands, the more it's a sport. SCCA, Bonneville, Go carts, Club racers, All of these are VERY close to "sport". All the rest is a show.
> 
> J.M.H.O.


Yikes, hey Tim, if Curling is a sport, then this one is too man!


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## A/FX Nut (May 28, 2004)

Drag racing was good this weekend. Ashley Force Hood won her second NHRA Funny Car Event.


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## tjettim (Nov 29, 2005)

The new "booster" system in F1 sucks too.As in slotcar
racing,every form of racing now has rules designed to
profit somebody.As stated previously,the smaller clubs
where the racers make the rules,are where the real racing
is.Too bad most are not televised.


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## resinmonger (Mar 5, 2008)

tjettim said:


> The new "booster" system in F1 sucks too.As in slotcar
> racing,every form of racing now has rules designed to
> profit somebody.As stated previously,the smaller clubs
> where the racers make the rules,are where the real racing
> is.Too bad most are not televised.


Televising the "grass roots" level racing would bring sponsorship and eventually the "grass roots" would be no different than the current major leagues. It is infusions of money from non-racers into racing that drive it towards a "show" as the investors want a return on their investment which is generally measured by TV ratings. Appealing to a small audience of hard core fans allows a racing series (or any other event) to serve its won interests. Appealing to the public at large carries a number of strings...

Colin Chapman changed the face of F-1 forever when he brought in Gold Leaf to be a major sponsor for Lotus. No more cars in national colors with discrete fuel, tire and electrical component logos and certainly no more small race purses. In with corporate liveries (think Marlboro as the prime example) and mega race purses. In with driver specialization. In with competition based on business versus racing. Think of Roger Penske as the consumate business man whose business is racing.

The genie won't go back into the bottle so live with what we have.

Hutt :drunk::hat::freak::dude:


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## afxgns (Jul 6, 2006)

resinmonger said:


> Televising the "grass roots" level racing would bring sponsorship and eventually the "grass roots" would be no different than the current major leagues. It is infusions of money from non-racers into racing that drive it towards a "show" as the investors want a return on their investment which is generally measured by TV ratings. Appealing to a small audience of hard core fans allows a racing series (or any other event) to serve its won interests. Appealing to the public at large carries a number of strings...
> 
> Colin Chapman changed the face of F-1 forever when he brought in Gold Leaf to be a major sponsor for Lotus. No more cars in national colors with discrete fuel, tire and electrical component logos and certainly no more small race purses. In with corporate liveries (think Marlboro as the prime example) and mega race purses. In with driver specialization. In with competition based on business versus racing. Think of Roger Penske as the consumate business man whose business is racing.
> 
> ...



Amen brotha!
I remember growing up in southern Mi. in the late sixties and early seventies. The ONLY racing we saw was on saturday afternoon on ABCs Wide world Of Sports, That was IT! Once a month if you were lucky. 

I NEVER saw an F1 race 'till the late 70s. They didn't televise the Indy 500 till the late 70s. and there was NEVER a televised Trans-am, or Can-Am race on TV that I ever saw.

I LOVE the fact that we can watch all this great racing and support all these great drivers....BECAUSE WE CAN WATCH THEM ON TV!!!!!!

If I have to wade thru some corporate crap to do it, so be it.

But it's still a show........populated by sportsmen.


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## Jim Norton (Jun 29, 2007)

*Yawners*

As a "how it could be" find yourself a taped Daytona 500 race from the late 1970s to the early 1980s.

You had what you do today...cars, drivers, track and spectators.

But what is missing when you watch Nascar today is an almost certainty that there will be no passing. These guys are content to follow each other lap after lap. And, it shows and deep down you know not to expect much.

But years back, you watched with anticipation knowing that any lap Waltrip would pass Bonnett and bring 3 or 4 cars with him. These guys were not content to follow. For some reason lost today, these guys wanted to run in front of the driver they were following.

Its just a matter of time before the networks realize that golf is as interesting to watch, will draw more viewers and be more lucrative.

I just don't know how much longer Nascar will last on TV. We all know we are kidding ourselves to think today's Nascar races are anything but yawners!

Jim Norton
Huntsville, Alabama


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## slotcarman12078 (Oct 3, 2008)

I agree, the action is no longer there. And it sadly has turned into a game of follow the leader. But there is something else missing from the big picture though that really cannot be replaced, and to me it is the most important thing. The cars are all very similar aerodynamic blobs. They lack any redeeming charactaristics to make them appealing. My love affair with cars waned in the mid to late 70's, and there are very few big 3 products after that point that interest me. Since they can't run 30-40 year old cars around the track, I guess my interest in NASCAR is dead in the water..


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## resinmonger (Mar 5, 2008)

Jim Norton said:


> As a "how it could be" find yourself a taped Daytona 500 race from the late 1970s to the early 1980s.
> 
> You had what you do today...cars, drivers, track and spectators.
> 
> ...


Back in the day, guys drove (I guess) to prove something to themselves and/or to the world. Why did I puke my guts out after track practice every day and come back the next day. I wanted to be good at something not book related. Being the smart nerd got no respect and no women. If fact, people seemed to resent it if you got a better grade than they did. On the other hand, blow them away by three seconds in a 440 yd dash and you were da bomb. Many of you had a sport or three in HS. Why go to all the effort? You know why! Now think of that feeling blown up to world stage levels! What a way to show you had skillz, yo!

Old time drivers risked death every time they got in a car. But try to keep them out of a car. Jim Clark was killed in a _formula two _race. Here's a two time F-1 champion in a lesser series. He was only in Germany because his tire contract wouldn't permit to drive Alan Mann's Ford F3L prototype at Brands Hatch the same weekend. The F3L had about zero chance of finishing the race. Dude wan't to DRIVE. Pedro Rogriguez won more races in the 1970/71 season for Gulf Porsche than all of the other drivers combined. We're talking Jo Siffert, Jacky Ickx, Vic Elford and a lot of other serious talent. The other drivers either had the same Porsche 917 or were in the works Ferrari. P-Rod thrashed them. He had F-1 wins. So what was he doing in Herbie Mueller's clapped out Ferrari 512M in an _Interseries_ event (European version of Can-AM)? A 512M against Can-Am turbo Porsches and year old ex-works McLarens - Pedro would have to drive his A*s off to break the top ten. Dude wanted to RACE.

Now, drivers are part of a corporate team. Push the car and risk failing to finish? What would that do to the title chase? How would a dnf affect future sponsor dollars? At some level, it approaches being a job. I don't mean this to put down the current drivers out there. I think they have the same skills and desire. They are just in a system that chokes off those desires. 

Never underestimate the ready access to vast amounts of money's ability to radically alter a sport. If sponsorship were limited to only automotive products, budgets would drop to near back in the day levels. Good thing? I have no idea. Better the devil you know...

This has been a Hutt rambling. :drunk::hat::freak::dude:
Some tequila was killed in this process. Do not attempt this at home if you don't get called a crust old fart at least twice a day.


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

Well, Johnson's pass on Hamlin for the win was one of the most exciting happenings of the race.
The thing is, back in the day, that kind of stuff happened every lap, if the leaders were that close to each other. If Yarbrough, or Allison, or Petty, or Pearson weren't 1 or 2 laps up on every one else, you could call it a close race. Thing is, how they got to that position. It wasn't always the most dominant engine program, more than half the time it was strategy, or just the flat out want to. As the corporates came in, and workers in these organizations struck out on their own or joined start ups, what they learned went with them. The 80s races really showcase this era well. It just got way more competitive. As the corporate dollars grew, in came the radial tires, shock dynos, front wheel drive, Ken doll drivers, the Chase, Toyota, and finally the blob of tomorrow. No more attitude. Kinda sucks. Too robotic. Hamlin didn't want it bad enough. That's the thing.

Stay in the throttle.


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## noddaz (Aug 6, 1999)

*Well now, that about says it all as far as I am conncerned...*



resinmonger said:


> *SNIP*
> 
> Now, drivers are part of a corporate team. Push the car and risk failing to finish? What would that do to the title chase? How would a dnf affect future sponsor dollars? At some level, it approaches being a job. I don't mean this to put down the current drivers out there. I think they have the same skills and desire. They are just in a system that chokes off those desires.
> 
> .


Nuff' said...

Scott


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## Jim Norton (Jun 29, 2007)

Resinmonger writes:

"Never underestimate the ready access to vast amounts of money's ability to radically alter a sport. If sponsorship were limited to only automotive products, budgets would drop to near back in the day levels. Good thing? I have no idea. Better the devil you know..."



Jim adds:

Amen. Every driver out there today is guaranteed a life of luxury as long as he shows up to the event.

Years back, the majority of the drivers would find themselves back at the machine shop Monday morning at their real jobs. Making the "big time" was a great incentitive when one was faced with this.

Today, you are watching millionaires drive race cars. Its the opposite now. These guys are afraid to race because they might get killed or injured and can no longer enjoy the good life.

Why in the heck would a multi-millionaire want to drive a race car wrecklessly?

Jim Norton
Huntsville, Alabama


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

Amen. The leverage of money changes people, sports, governments, and the availability of slot cars.


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## TomH (Jan 17, 2006)

Jim Norton said:


> Resinmonger writes:
> 
> "Never underestimate the ready access to vast amounts of money's ability to radically alter a sport. If sponsorship were limited to only automotive products, budgets would drop to near back in the day levels. Good thing? I have no idea. Better the devil you know..."
> 
> ...


Yeah your right..now go watch your golf match:wave:


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## Jim Norton (Jun 29, 2007)

*Texas yawner*

After what I heard about the Texas race yesterday golf is becoming an exciting alternative.

Jim Norton
Huntsville, AL


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## Pomfish (Oct 25, 2003)

For Me, it changed for the worse the day they switched to Radial Tires.

I have old tapes from the 80's broadcast by ESPN and I'm telling you, these drivers had their hands full EVERY LAP!
They drove them loose and fast and it was exciting. On the last pit stop maybe the crew chief would call for serious tire stagger and crank out 3=4 turns of wedge so the driver could haul grocerys to the checkered flag.
Sometimes it worked, most times it didn't. But the point is you didn't know who was going to win until the last laps.

Also the day I saw Nascar on the front cover of Forbes. That was it, I knew in my heart that Big Money would ruin the sport.
And they have.

Anyway, thanks for the rant.
But on the bright side, my lawn has never looked better since Na$car stopped being fun to watch 

One other thing, EFF DIGGER!
Keith


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## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)

Pomfish said:


> For Me, it changed for the worse the day they switched to Radial Tires.
> 
> I have old tapes from the 80's broadcast by ESPN and I'm telling you, these drivers had their hands full EVERY LAP!
> They drove them loose and fast and it was exciting. On the last pit stop maybe the crew chief would call for serious tire stagger and crank out 3=4 turns of wedge so the driver could haul grocerys to the checkered flag.
> ...


 
Agree 100% on all points.


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## SplitPoster (May 16, 2006)

Little to add, you guys said it all. I don't watch NASCAR for all the previously mentioned reasons, my .02 - in SPORT some games/races/matches/etc. will be blowouts or yawners, others will be nailbiters or complete suprises. If every single one unfolds similarly by design it gets to be more like just another weekly episode of the same old show. 

On F1's season start I'll say this - the Braun F1 story this year is amazing. Taking those Hondas, forming a team in a very short time period and winning (with Mercedes power) says a lot. Some may not like the Kinetic Energy Devices - but their use is optional, and it was cool as S#!+ to see some teams use one on one car and not on the other to see if one would have an advantage, and to see the tradeoff in acceleration vs. weight/braking. Playing the variables and gambling (like Kimi taking on rains 4 laps too early) may not make for "close" racing, but it is pretty exciting if you care to keep up. Lots more for drivers, teams and fans to think about when there are few full course yellows/safety cars during a race instead of a dozen or more. 

Got opportunities to see some races this year in person - I have a hard time sitting still for a TV show anyway. Driving on ANY level is the best.


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

All's been said, but who woulda thought ole Mark Martin would be leading the Chase?
I haven't been watching much, but I have been keeping tabs on the results.
KY Busch, Kenseth out of the Chase? Who woulda thunk it?
Think Nascar will change something if JJ wins the cup again?

Just wondering what you thought.

Rich

Hey Split,
I got some friends coming there next week for the Cruisin the Coast.


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## oldraceral (Dec 1, 2005)

And Juan Pablo running strong? What's up with that? His interviews are fun, though.
Wasn't there talk about tinkering with the Chase again? Someone always has "a plan". Seems like they just Chase away more ticket buyers and viewers.


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

I thought this thread may deserve a bump in honor of Matt Kenseth's 2nd Daytona 500 win.


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## Shadowracer (Sep 11, 2004)

lol. He sure didn't luck into this one!


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## SmittyinFLA (Jan 3, 2012)

The only two NASCAR races I watch anymore are the Daytona and Talladega races...There is STILL something compelling about 200mph, bumper to bumper racing. I DO miss the 'stock' aspects of stock car racing...The cookie cutter cars bother me. It used to be that this is where innovation in aerodynamics came from (Ford Thunderbird, anyone?).

I will say, though...The LAST thing I expected to see last night was Juablo crashing into a helicopter engine!

Motorsports can ALWAYS surprise you...But I will stick to watching open wheel and sports cars.


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

I always think of this thread when Matt wins...


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

Just a footnote to this Nascar season.....

After his dominance last year, Matt Kenseth has no wins this year and is barely holding on to a Chase spot.

I think iiiii could take his ride from him this year...


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## mrtjet (Dec 3, 2013)

*nascar*

Mystery cautions. The Chase. Dumb. What is really dumb? Getting a lap back because you are the first one down a lap. When is the last time a racer had a lead of one lap or more? Used to be the champ was the guy who got the most points through out the season. I still like it and I still watch it. But it ain't racing as it should be. Just my opinion.


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## smalltime (Jun 3, 2006)

> What is really dumb? Getting a lap back because you are the first one down a lap.


The reason they started that rule is that the leaders were backing off under yellows and letting teammates get their lap back......team orders, if you will.

I actually think if they went to the old USAC/Indy style of freeze the field, it would be a better result. Race to get your lap back.

Until they lower ticket prices......NASCAR is in for a long road back.






Entire sections of seats weren't even sold.


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

Ah yes, the Danica rule....


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## mrtjet (Dec 3, 2013)

Backing off under yellow? I though there was no passing under a yellow!?


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## Super G Man (May 13, 2013)

I think it was Dale Jarret who was involved in a wreck in Atlanta on the backstretch and the emergency crews were delayed getting to him because the field was racing to the flag and it wasn't safe to be on track. Rule came into being shortly after.


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## smalltime (Jun 3, 2006)

mrtjet said:


> Backing off under yellow? I though there was no passing under a yellow!?


They used to race back to the yellow flag.

And Princess Sparkle Pony was never in a NASCAR race when this was a rule.


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## mrtjet (Dec 3, 2013)

In Nascers brilliant wisdom, the rules will change so Princess Sparkle Pony can be competitive and win. No I don't know how they will do it. But I'm sure that an organization that an come up with the O So wonderfull" lucky dog" rule can figure out a way.


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