# How accurate is this? Phase II 1/2500 scale



## Tyboy4umodels (Apr 26, 2005)

Hello I came across one of these on Eb..how accurate is it?










I have looked at some of the other topics related to this,and the blueprints,but does anyone have detailed pics of it?


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## frontline (May 4, 2005)

From what I can see, not bloody accurate at all. There are so many things wrong with this model its not even funny. The deflector is all scrwed up, so are the shape of the nacelles and their placement. The engineering hull looks droopy. The list goes on and on and on.


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

You're picking at the buildup. The actual kit itself is fairly accurate, especially for how few references there are out there for the Phase II _Enterprise_. I own a copy of this kit and recommend it.


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## Tyboy4umodels (Apr 26, 2005)

Hey Griff,
How big is this kit? Do you have pics of your kit? I want to get one of these kits.Thanks


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

Looks to be a nice version of the ship, and Griff would know. The 1/2500 ST modeler.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

My main problem is the saucer shape being identical to the ST:TOS 1701. It should in shape be similar to the ST:TMP. 

The bridge looks good. The decals look pretty good. The engines would be lit on both sides of the nacelles, however and blue/green in color if the original intent were to have been followed.

The main sensor/deflector dish has never really been firmly pinned down to my knowledge. There would probably have been an inset dish antenna as Thomas did on his U.S.S. Kongo model since that's similar to some of what's been depicted in PII artwork. Since the later artwork on the redesigned 1701 refit for ST:TMP showed a still to be worked out sensor dish, I doubt the glowing blue dish would have been used on the PII.

Still, for 1/2500, how picky can you get?


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

OK This is mostly going from memory, but as originally conceived the Phase II _Enterprise_ was only to have very moderate cosmetic changes. The main changes, to my knowledge, were to be the nacelles, pylons, upper decks (bridge & Decks 2/3) were to be changed slightly and a slight widening of the secondary hull. However, the intent was to have the primary hull remain largely unchanged. That's from some of the early concept art and commentary out there, such as from "Star Trek: Phase II". I would imagine that the deflector dish might have glowed had this series seen production, as there have been several comments that they wanted more lights on the _Enterprise_. It's also possible that a spike was to remain in the nav deflector area, tho at 1/2500 scale to portray it accurately you'd need to find a nice straight hair.... 

Regardless, Jay "cozmo" Curtiss' representation isn't any less correct or accurate than anybody else's interpretation, considering the fact that the Phase II model was never finished, nor was any art finalized, to my knowledge. His buildup has some alignment issues, sure, but that doesn't mean the model kit itself isn't accurate. All one has to do is as Jay did - look at the art work out there from "The Art of Star Trek", "Star Trek: Phase II" and several online sources to see where he got his intrepretation of the kit. There really is no 100% "accurate" version that could be built, to my knowledge. I think that Jay's is the closest to the early concept art, however. 

I'm sure that Thomas has studied the issue better than I have and welcome any corrections - either by him or anyone else knowledgable on the subject.


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

Tyboy4umodels said:


> Hey Griff,
> How big is this kit? Do you have pics of your kit? I want to get one of these kits.Thanks


I failed to respond to this... The kit is approximately 4" long - I'm at work and don't have mine available, but it's the same basic dimensions as the ERTL TOS 1701 kit in the same scale. I don't have any pics of mine.


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## Tyboy4umodels (Apr 26, 2005)

Well I have read the posts about this, I am going to get one of these.

Thanks Griff. :thumbsup: 

Now my next question,is the paint job accurate in the picture above? Or do I need a picture of the studio model to use as a guide? Does anyonehave a good studio picture of the Phase II? Thanks :wave:


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

^The studio model was never finished. The only pics I've ever seen were a couple of shots of the partially-completed model on a work table in the big trade paperback book about Phase II.


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

Which is what I said previously. Thanks for reiterating it, John. :thumbsup:


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## cozmo (Nov 29, 2004)

All y'all had to do was ask.

When I built the thing, all I had to go on was the book "Art Of Star Trek". 
It has the picture of the partially completed PhaseII. I also seem to 
remember a picture of a pre-release poster for ST-TMP that used the 
PhaseII Enterprise, but I could be wrong on that one. It is hard to imagine 
the world before the web, but we were able to do things then.

The art showed a dish, my artistic license didn't. I did make the "Micky 
Mouse" twin turbolifts to the bridge, but didn't like the larger lower bridge 
deck. From everything I could decipher, the PhaseII primary hull is (besides 
the bridge) identical to the TOS saucer. The secondary hull is enlarged 
towards the front like the TMP-E and the rear is the same as the TOS-E.

Okay, my fault on the miss-alignment. I can be impatient sometimes. I 
was rushing it together to make sure the decals fit.

See the ships 
in the top right photo 

I did a lot of experimenting with the PhaseII idea. These are just some 
of them.

And while y'all are at it, feel free to look at some other "itty-bitty" stuff.

Some other stuff

As for paint job, it is a representation of a variation of a fictional spaceship 
that was never finished.


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## Tyboy4umodels (Apr 26, 2005)

Sorry Griff,
I read it so fast,I had to re-read it. I will just try to do it like the Refit with a little difference on the nacelles when I get it. Thanks


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## Tyboy4umodels (Apr 26, 2005)

Oh,thanks Cozmo.
My daughter I think got me one of those for Christmas from you. :wave:


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Griffworks said:


> . . . However, the intent was to have the primary hull remain largely unchanged.





cozmo said:


> . . . From everything I could decipher, the PhaseII primary hull is (besides
> the bridge) identical to the TOS saucer.


I think that it is clear from a brief study of the blueprints and the partially completed model that the overall primary hull shape is pretty much identical (excepting the bridge and teardrop above and lighting device and sensor below) to the _ST:TMP_ version. The shapes of the bulges above and below are very different from the _ST:TOS _version. 



Griffworks said:


> I would imagine that the deflector dish might have glowed had this series seen production, as there have been several comments that they wanted more lights on the _Enterprise_.


Possibly. My best guess is that they would have lit the front of the nacelles to reflect the same area on the _ST:TOS_ version.


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## Tyboy4umodels (Apr 26, 2005)

PerfesserCoffee,
I sent you a PM, thanks.


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

PerfesserCoffee said:


> I think that it is clear from a brief study of the blueprints and the partially completed model that the overall primary hull shape is pretty much identical (excepting the bridge and teardrop above and lighting device and sensor below) to the _ST:TMP_ version. The shapes of the bulges above and below are very different from the _ST:TOS _version.


OK Gotta challenge you on this one - what are you basing that opinion on? From all I've seen of pre-production art in "The Art of Star Trek" and "Star Trek: Phase II", to include the promo poster, it seems pretty clear that the primary hull was to be the same. I seem to recall reading something from the production notes that this was originally what Matt Jeffries had intended to do, as well. 

I'll pull out my copy of the two books in question and verify that, but I have a very strong memory in regards to that since I did a visual comparison some years ago because of the designs seen in "Ships of the Fleet, Volume One/Revised" where I was trying to see where the Refit, _Tikopai-_ and _Constitution II_-class designs fit in to Phase II.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Griff:

Sent you some pics for comparison. 

I'm basing my observations on the PII model and the MJ PII blueprints. The artwork was somewhat inaccurate in those regards I believe.

The model of the PII followed the blueprints and it is clear from comparisons that the shapes of the top and bottom of the saucer are markedly different from the ST:TOS while being nearly identical to the ST:TMP saucer. 

The bulges on top of the PII/ST:TMP saucer are concave in outline while the bulge on the ST:TOS version is clearly convex in outline.


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## cozmo (Nov 29, 2004)

Hmmmm...

Been spending a while going over the three pics of the PhaseII in the book. There is a built up AMT TOS Enterprise in the background. The grid was even reproduced on the top of the saucer. Then compared the pics to the larger models of each Enterprise. As for the concave/convex on decks 3, 4 and 5, all three E's look to start out concave then change to convex. There may be something to those decks being changed though. When looking at the partially completed PhaseII model, the neck plates on the top of the saucer do appear to blend into the saucer differently. But that could be an illusion.

Something I hadn't noticed before, at the back of the table, is the sensor dish and what could be the hanger doors. The sensor dish has a concave bowl. That could mean there there wasn't going to be a dish mounted like the TOS Enterprise.

Never saw any blueprints though. Were they made at the time of the PhaseII planning, or did they come later?

And I don't think the nacelles were being made to be lit. Unless it was going to be done later. But it does give me thoughts...


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## aridas sofia (Feb 3, 2004)

Here is a comparison between *Matt Jefferies'* cutaway plans of the *TOS* and *Phase 2* ships. 

http://home.comcast.net/~aridas/JefferiesCutSm.jpg

The saucer is closer to the original than is that of the *TMP* refit. But it has been removed, and additional area added along the saucer edge. The bridge has been replaced. The lower dome and the deck above it, where the photorps were fired from on the *TOS* ship, were also removed, and a new dome attached.

Those are the biggest changes on the saucer.


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

PerfesserCoffee said:


> Griff:
> 
> Sent you some pics for comparison.
> 
> ...


I think that Page 61 of "The Art of Star Trek" gives an excellent rendition of what I'm on about, as well as where it would appear that *cozmo* got his idea from. The top image there shows a Mike Minor rendition of the new Matt Jeffries design and the underside of the saucer is shaped like the TOS Enterprise and not the TMP, tho I see where it would indeed have to be proportionally larger as *aridas sofia* mentions. 

I would also like to point out, again, that I'm talking about _early production art_ from when ideas were still being worked and nothing had been finalized w/the design. The very early TMP poster - which appeared on the back of some comic books marvel put out in prior to the final TMP design being worked out further illustrates where I think that cozmo got his ideas, as he says above, as well. Anybody have a link handy for that poster, BTW? I thought I had it saved to my Favorites, but appear not to.... 

And, again, I'm _not_ taking the studio model (that was never finished) in to account, nor finalized blueprints that the construction of said model was based on.


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

Griffworks said:


> I think that Page 61 of "The Art of Star Trek" gives an excellent rendition of what I'm on about, as well as where it would appear that *cozmo* got his idea from. The top image there shows a Mike Minor rendition of the new Matt Jeffries design and the underside of the saucer is shaped like the TOS Enterprise and not the TMP, tho I see where it would indeed have to be proportionally larger as *aridas sofia* mentions.


Something else I just noticed is that the cover for "Star Trek: Phase II" has a very similar set of artwork on the cover. This artwork is very similar to what was on the very early TMP poster that I mention above, as well. The lower saucer is definitely closer in shape to the TOS then TMP lower saucer.


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## genty (Mar 25, 2005)

I found these images of the Phase 2 Enterprise
http://www.robsacc.nl/images/concept_art/phase%202/phaseIIent.jpg
http://www.robsacc.nl/images/concept_art/phase%202/phase2ent02.jpg
http://www.robsacc.nl/images/concept_art/phase%202/P-2Ent-2.jpg


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Griffworks said:


> I think that Page 61 of "The Art of Star Trek" gives an excellent rendition of what I'm on about . . .
> 
> And, again, I'm _not_ taking the studio model (that was never finished) in to account, nor finalized blueprints that the construction of said model was based on.



I suspect that and some of the other work were based on the 18" AMT conversion that was created as a model prototype. The Minor rendition even shows the small holes in the underside of the saucer as only the 18" AMT model had.
*
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING* wrong with basing a model on the artwork. However, I'm not sure of the logic of dismissing the partially completed model which matches MJ's blueprints of the PII. And here, we may have to agree to disagree: "You say tom_ah_to . . . " :freak: 

IMHO, the model is the most developed version of the PII in terms of the details it reveals and, unless someone has evidence that it would have not been used, it must, IMHO, be the final authority on those basic shapes revealed. 

Admittedly the partially build model has its short comings but its achingly close resemblance to the STMP version in terms of saucer shape (again, minus the bridge and teardrop and the planetary sensor array/lights) and its striking differences in contours to the STOS version leave me no doubt about what the basic shapes of the ship would have been on screen.

As for the lighting, there are MJ drawings indicating the lighting effect for the nacelles wherein both sides would have been lit with a green/blue lighting effect.

In any case, as I said earlier, the little model doesn't float my boat but at that scale, it's still a pretty decent representation. :thumbsup:


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

Lee, 

I wasn't dismissing the art being worked on towards the end of the pre-production before it was nixed in favor of a movie, nor was I dismissing the model that was being built. I was only trying to clarify my thoughts on the issue of where I feel that *cozmo* was coming from w/his model. I have no problem with it, either way. My overall point, tho was that nothing was every totally finalized before production on "Star Trek 2" (re: "Phase II") was halted and everything was re-geared towards TMP. 

Personally, I'd love to see models made based off of the nearly-finalized artwork for the 2nd TOS show, as well as models based off of the "Ships of the Star Fleet - Volume One/Revised" _Tikopai_ and _Constitution II_ designs - which are both based off of elements of the late Phase II designs. 

There's plenty of room out there for everybody's own private Trek Universe. :thumbsup:


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Griffworks said:


> There's plenty of room out there for everybody's own private Trek Universe. :thumbsup:


Yea, verily!


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

I have reviewed the committee's finding, and further study of the photos, the the lower half of the model saucer is way wrong. It looks to be a copy of the AMT 1/2500 TOS model. You will never find a model 100% right to the movie/series. Never!


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## Tyboy4umodels (Apr 26, 2005)

I got it today,I got my 1/2500 scale kit. It is small but It will be a challenge. I have never done something that small. But it is a cool looking kit. I can't wait to dig in to it. :thumbsup:


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Keep us up-to-date on your progess, please, Ty!


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## Tyboy4umodels (Apr 26, 2005)

I will,thanks. :thumbsup:


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## Royal Aussie (Jun 1, 2006)

*phase two kit and phase two history*

The kit is off on the main, it really was a slightly changed version of the sixties ship, Brick Price built it at his shop, Don Loos a pal of production designer Matt Jefferies, Built the wood patterns at Brick Prices shop.
The final detail work was done by price and crew, the phase two ship was finished with the silimlar paint job as was done on the film minature.
When they switched to motion picture mode only some elements made the transition, the dish and the warp pods, if you look at the Starlog article about Magicam there is a shot of Robert Wise Leaning over the Brick Price Motion Picture model.
Also in that same article you can see the warp pods from the phase two model in the middle of their refit to become the final model.
The motion picture Enterprise passed through many hands before it became the final ship we know so well, but one thing that is for certain it started with Brick Price and the phase two.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

To be clear about the matter, the "finished" version of the Phase II is not accurate to the intent of the Phase II series team--it is not what it would have looked like if it had appeared on the series. 

The Phase II model was never finished as such. It was retrofitted with several pieces and painted to make it more similar to the motion picture version after the motion picture version was finished.

While it does share more general characteristics with the original TV version than the motion picture version does, the Phase II's primary and secondary hull contours match very closely those of the motion picture version. 

Both the motion picture and Phase II versions are a complete mismatch with the original TV ship in those basic contours. 

Compare blueprints of the Phase II and motion picture versions, overlaying or side by side, and you'll see what I mean.

Oh, yeah! WELCOME TO THE BOARD! :wave:


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## Royal Aussie (Jun 1, 2006)

*more details for you.*

:thumbsup: I think I know where your coming from if you are refering to the planet hollywood enterprise, well yes it has the motion picture profile, that model is somewhat of a frankenstiens monster,
It was put together with parts from two filming minatures for fun after the motion picture was finished back in 1979.
Now the thing is Brick Price made two very different filming minatures, yes their was the phase two, which was finished.
Then the production shifted to motion picture and the ship was redesigned at that point much of the phase two was junked..but not all, the dish remained but the mickey mouse eared bridge was junked, to see the first and not final bridge again go to the Starlog piece from 1979 about magicam, and you will see the fist version of the motion picture bridge that was built by Brick Price.
The next piece to change was the lower portion of the ship, the dorsal was different on phase two it had windows placed in the same position as the sixties ship, and it was a seperate peice of tooling.
The motion picture tooling had the dorsal part as part of its tooling, so these peice went over to Magicam another effects house, from there they turned the Brick Price parts into tooling from which they generated plastic forms that they then super detailed with the help of many model masters.
The ship was truely a refit in every sense of the word. now as for the blue print of phase two they are off in some critical areas, but they are spot on in others, so its a real toss up...oh and thanks for the welcome. :wave:


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## Captain April (May 1, 2004)

Basically, the process of the design went thusly:

The initial concept was, as stated earlier, the saucer would be essentially untouched, while the bulk of the changes would be in the engineering hull and the nacelles.

Then, as the design starts to take a more refined form, "design creep" seeps in, and more things start changing than were initially planned, eventually morphing into the TMP version we all know.

Sound 'bout right?


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## Royal Aussie (Jun 1, 2006)

*Phase two info.*

You know that sounds about right, although its interesting on the original phase two tooling their is no indication of the photon torpedo tubes, unlike when mike M, did the color painting of phase two, the other thing that's real odd is the shuttle hanger, on both the phase two and the first motion picture prototype they are about 3 1/2 inches shorter. 
Again closer to the sixties ships profile, when they were handed the tooling over at Magicam they vacum formed all the parts from the Brick Price tooling extending it and making some major modifications.
The final puzzle in the history was laid to rest by the Star Trek the motion picture special edition art director he confirmed having worked with the final filming minature..the trail leads back to model maker Brick Price.
Oh and by the by the warp engine while from the phase two were extended by about five inches in the back, also the first model kit tooling was made by Brick Price, so its accurate to his fist draft enterprise, that's why it's out of step with the final filming minature, the kit give you the first draft enterprise.
a :wave: to you


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## Royal Aussie (Jun 1, 2006)

*and as columbo said" just one more thing"*

The other interesting thing about the motion picture refit, and again look at the Magicam piece from 1979, they admit to the fact they over did it with the internal lighting to such a degree that it started to generate a signal that was throwing off their motion control computers.
When the ship was sent up to ILM ,I heard two of the key model guys bitching about the messy wiring job inside the ship, which even now it has a outside control panel to deal with all the internal lighting effects. :drunk:


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Royal Aussie said:


> . . . [T]he first model kit tooling was made by Brick Price, so its accurate to his fist draft enterprise, that's why it's out of step with the final filming minature, the kit give you the first draft enterprise.
> a :wave: to you


I meant to respond to this earlier: THAT is a fascinating tidbit! :thumbsup: I had noticed that there were some differences in the engine mounting areas between some of the models but had always figured the AMT model kit to be correct until someone on this board nicely pointed out that it was not after all accurate to the refit as seen on screen.

I find the original Phase II struts to actually be more appealing in terms of the engine mount and in the flat profile.


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## chris_in_japan (May 27, 2005)

Please Read the Rules for this forum as well as the Terms of service.
This was your first post and an outright violation of the Terms of Service and Rules of this forum. It will not be tolerated again. Ignorance of the rules is not a reason to not follow them.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Darn! I always miss the good posts 

:jest:


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## Captain April (May 1, 2004)

What'd I miss?


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

^^I have no idea but it sounds like it was a good one


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## Royal Aussie (Jun 1, 2006)

:freak:


chris_in_japan said:


> Please Read the Rules for this forum as well as the Terms of service.
> This was your first post and an outright violation of the Terms of Service and Rules of this forum. It will not be tolerated again. Ignorance of the rules is not a reason to not follow them.



What the heck is this all about, here's a man with way to much time on his hands.


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## Royal Aussie (Jun 1, 2006)

You know the one thing thats kind of odd is the rounded tube on the lower part of the warp strut. this appears on both the phase two and the final ship.
Very interesting.
And the engine support on the phase two, personally I think they changed it because it is less than a support more like a design. 
For the weight of the tooling, these struts would almost work, almost.
The original model was made from fibreglass and it was Very heavy at just under six feet long.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

^^Do you have a pic of the round tube you're referring to?


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## Royal Aussie (Jun 1, 2006)

somewhere, let me look for it. as well as some phase two pics


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

^^That would be very cool!


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