# Oval Track Car Handling



## gonegonzo (Jan 18, 2006)

Last night I was at our groups race and seen some oval cars that a member had built . All were T-Jet based and were fairground builds . Each one was a great build and was highly detailed . The detail is what prompts this post .

Each car had an independent front end with the left front wheel having a rear tire mounted as per old time fairground specs . 

I like the look and the added realizm but wondered about the handling that this might create . He couldn't reflect as he hasn't ran the cars as of yet .

Can anyone give input here ?

Thx ,
Gonzo


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## smalltime (Jun 3, 2006)

As long as all the tires are touching, you should be fine. If you have the LF hiked, it might do OK, but DEFINETLY have the RF solid. I have no idea of the track config, so I can't say any more. But you ALWAYS want the RF to be true, and touching first.


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## Pete McKay (Dec 20, 2006)

Gonzo, we run stagger on just about every car that turns a lap on my track. There's a few ways to do this, one is to sand the inside rear tire to a smaller diameter. This works great on hard rubber tires but for silicones it's not going to work. What we do instead is take a few wraps of wheel-width pin stripe tape to make the tire a bigger diameter. You only need two or three wraps, really aggressive guys will run 4 or 5. My tires mic out to being 0.08 to 0.13 over for the outside tire, the guy with the current track record runs about 0.16 over. That doesn't sound like much but consider that for every 6 1/4" the outside tire travels 1" farther than the inside. On a bullring like Three Palms, it works. 

The front tires aren't so much of an issue, I do stagger my fronts too but I'll run a low profile tire, like a narrowed G+ tire, on the inside and a normal tire on the outside. Another thing guys will do is glaze their fronts with thin super glue so that there is no traction with them, it's like having an independent front end.


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## SuperFist (Aug 7, 2005)

I have never staggered tires before on an oval ?

When you stagger rear tire size with a larger tire on the outside.
Does that let the full width of both rear tires grip the track.
Or is there just contact with the inside of the right tire and outside of the left tire on the track ?

__________________


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## Pete McKay (Dec 20, 2006)

Superfist, like having camber in your suspension it will run a little on the edges on the straights, but on corners the tire will roll (in theory at least) to have more of a contact patch. Around here we call this "420 Science" for obvious reasons. Years ago Tyco made these tires with a raised ridge in the middle, we called them 'humpers' because they had a hump. Clever, eh? We'd take those tires and sand that hump almost entirely off, leave maybe a hundredth or so of an inch. On the straights these tires would ride up on the humps and have less rolling resistance on the track, but in the corners would roll onto the solid rubber of the rest of the tire. We knew this because we painted the tire with a thin coat of white out, ran them a few laps and checked how much of the tire was making contact. We would sand until we got the contact in the curves we wanted.


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## gonegonzo (Jan 18, 2006)

Really it was the front right tire in question . I'm going to try it and see if things ge squirelly .

Thx guys 
Gonzo


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## joegri (Feb 13, 2008)

this oval trak racin sounds fun! with all the adjustments that can be made and hopefully some long straights. zoom zoom fellas. i have tried a jw,s speed fairgrounds set up out on my road course , but quickly had to change it out. go get,em gonzo.


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## Grampa Ho (Feb 25, 2009)

Oval left turns only in our little club and no problems with staggering the tires.
I have also not had a problem grinding or sanding down a tad on sillies for full patch contact. Yes they are camfered a little, but, a little sanding to true them up works for us on the black silicone tires. Some just use different dia. tires, some sand them down. The way I test for patch contact is to use a spare piece of track and look at the tires to make sure they all touch and true up to make the max contact. I keep different size tires for different tracks because some tracks have a longer straight and different radius corners which in my experience does make a difference. You just have to be carefull that you don't put to small of tires on the inside causing the rear gear to hit the rails when sliding through a corner. It will send you off right now. Keep checking for the maximum stagger that works for you.


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## Grampa Ho (Feb 25, 2009)

I should also mention that when you stgger the tires you also need to adjust the spring tension on the inside or lower side shoe to compensate for the lowness of the chassis and to adjust the contact area of the shoe itself.


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## Pete McKay (Dec 20, 2006)

I've always had problems sanding silicones that weren't glued on, the little buggers have too much flex in them.


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

We stagger tires on the ovals we run. There is no 'standard' for it. It varies from tires, chassis to chassis, body to body, and what type of chassis you are running. In our outdoor warehouses, dust, humidity and temperature factor in as well. (Silicone tires are worthless under 35 degrees.) Some cars run better with no stagger. I have more fun setting up cars for ovals than for road courses.

Oh yeah, you'll wanna stagger your magnets too.


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## resinmonger (Mar 5, 2008)

NTxSlotCars said:


> ...Oh yeah, you'll wanna stagger your magnets too...


Don't you stagger the amature and pinion gear shaft as well? Oh I forgot, no TJets for you...


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## neorules (Oct 20, 2006)

I even stagger when I'm driving an oval!!!


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## Crimnick (May 28, 2006)

Got the swagger of a stagger....


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## Grampa Ho (Feb 25, 2009)

to get back to the original question for the guy, As a kid I would do that but on both sides of the front Never thought about doing it because I feel I have learned it just did not make sence to do that unless the chassis was warped and warped in such a direction that it was on the correct side. Could also be an illusion with a different wheel holding the other tire and they more or less match each other. Can't seem to see why you would do the except if you run a harder inside and grind or find a very soft foamie so it looks bigger but has alot if sway. By the way, this does help "set" the car for the corner too, if need be.
Hope you all can digest that, it took me 20 minutes at work to do this small piece for you all to be educated in. LOL


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## mahorsc (Mar 26, 2008)

we have found on big sweeping corners the wide tires don't hurt much 
on tight corners its like the frt tires want to grab so i run the hardest tire i kind find it seems to help like tire is slipping instead of grabbing

as far as the back you need to try the larger tire on the inside if you watch most guys are looking to hammer the car coming out of the corner the car gets loose but with the large tire on the inside it takes that out and you can come off the corner harder which i turns gets you to top speed faster


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## LeeRoy98 (Jul 8, 2005)

mahorsc said:


> we have found on big sweeping corners the wide tires don't hurt much
> on tight corners its like the frt tires want to grab so i run the hardest tire i kind find it seems to help like tire is slipping instead of grabbing
> 
> as far as the back you need to try the larger tire on the inside if you watch most guys are looking to hammer the car coming out of the corner the car gets loose but with the large tire on the inside it takes that out and you can come off the corner harder which i turns gets you to top speed faster


Interesting... I can't disagree since I have never tried it, but it does go against everything I ever learned regarding the use of stagger. The last set of Super G+ that I setup had .410 inside and .415 outside running on Tomy track. 
I also ran a 440X2 where both tires were the same size but the inside tire was a slightly softer compound. I believe the magnetic downforce created a similar effect at the slower cornering speeds.

All ran on left turn ovals.

Gary
AKA LeeRoy98
www.marioncountyraceway.com


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## eastside johnny (May 13, 2008)

Way back in the early years (80's) of the North Coast H.O. running magnaTraction cars & inline cars too some of the fastest cars/drivers on the ovals were running a larger tire on the left rear. Just the opposite of 1:1 racing but it did work. If you think about this the idea in full size racing is that the stager will turn the car to the left. Our slot car have a guide pin turning the car & the reverse stager will hell keep the rear from wanting the drift out in the turns===faster cornering!


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## LeeRoy98 (Jul 8, 2005)

I guess I could see that on the cars without rear traction magnets, but on the Super G+ and 440X2 with the rear traction magnets I had more problems with a tight car rather than a loose car. It would seem the combination of centrifigal force and the effect of the reverse stagger to counter a potential loose rear would make the car even more prone to a tight condition.
I always felt that my setup with standard 1:1 type stagger worked because the load on the chassis due to the increased cornering brought the magnets down to the extreme on the right side of the car while the left was already at that height (remember, in my setup it was only .005 difference). If you set the car that low on both sides, you experienced reduced straight line speed and slower cornering.
I know a lot of cars chased my Super G+ and 440X2 cars. But I believe driving styles may play a factor also. My style was always faster entering the corner, smoother through and perhaps not as quick on the throttle exiting. I counted more on superior speed through the corner and a faster initial exit speed.
Again, not disagreeing. Just my thoughts... it does give me something to do over the next few weeks to occupy my time. And I have the large oval to do the testing!!

Gary
AKA LeeRoy98
www.marioncountyraceway.com


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## gonegonzo (Jan 18, 2006)

Ya see , this all started when I seen another racers T-Jet Fairground cars . He modeled 4 of them using AW chassis and bodies as bases . For modeling reasons he added the larger right front wheel as with the dirt track cars . I'm sure he did it strictly for the modeling aspect . The cars look great . 

I liked the look of realism that it displayed . I was thinking it would be amazing if this would make a slot car handle . Then again , as some of you mentioned , 1=1 cars and our slot cars aren't created equal in the geometry department . 

I understand the the physics of stager for rear tires . I run a larger left tire with soft compound and a .020'' smaller hard compound tire on my 1/24th scale oval cars . That works great . Ya'll are correct that it's opposite of a 1=1 cars mainly due to the live axle . Kind of like turning a go-kart . Ya gotta slide'm .

I also understand the concept of the larger right front tire 0n the 1=1 cars . Actually , the top of the 1=1 cars tire is tucked in about 8 degrees so the patch is layed down in the turns . Now , to try this on the fronts only without the 8 degrees . 

Thx 
Gonzo


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## Pete McKay (Dec 20, 2006)

mahorsc said:


> as far as the back you need to try the larger tire on the inside if you watch most guys are looking to hammer the car coming out of the corner the car gets loose but with the large tire on the inside it takes that out and you can come off the corner harder which i turns gets you to top speed faster


Actually the opposite is true. This is why any racing with a locked rear axle on an oval track uses the bigger diameter tires on the OUTSIDE, not the inside. Look at Sprint Car Racing, the most obvious in terms of tire stagger, huge tire on the outside. Indy car racing, NASCAR racing, every form of racing rins the larger tire on the outside. A larger tire on the inside will make the car turn right, and abruptly.


...unless of course, you're in Australia, in which case they race counter clockwise and you'd be right.


Gonzo, I takled with my buddy who raced with me a long time ago, mostly Magna-Tractions, and he said the rear on the right front was something he did regularly, so you're right on line with that you were trying to explain. I just never looked that closely at his cars.


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## mahorsc (Mar 26, 2008)

one thing you have to remember 1:1 car has real suspension which forces the car to stay planted in to the track and our cars don't 
the bigger tire on the left may try to make car turn right i dont know cars to fast to see it but 1 thing i do know is the car stays planted and hooked up and on most of my cars will clock 1 - 2 tenths faster the get to top speed faster and beats a car set up the other way out of the corners bad 
even on the same car or on cars that are pretty equal 

just try it it may surprise you 

but with stickys (sponge silicone) i set cars up as flat as i can


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## eastside johnny (May 13, 2008)

Bottom line is "What ever works best for you on a particular track" These little slot cars are VERY sensitive to the slightest of changes and driving styles will also dictate what may work best. One drivers rocket may be a toilet for someone else.

Also when dealing with inline motor cars on oval tracks, the direction of the arm rotation will effect the characteristics differently at BOTH ends of the straights, kicking the rear either to the left or right. One way will get you off the corner better & the other way will get you into the corner better. Again, whatever works best for your car & driving style.

It's all just a part of what makes these thing so much fun.


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## LeeRoy98 (Jul 8, 2005)

eastside johnny said:


> Again, whatever works best for your car & driving style.
> 
> It's all just a part of what makes these thing so much fun.


Exactly!! And now I have something to experiment with... which is something I truly enjoy. Now if I can just figure out how to get that suspension thingie in there...


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## blubyu (May 4, 2008)

I also saw better times with a larger left on are banked oval. This was with magnet cars and I think it helps the right side staying closer to the outside rail?


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

On a flat chassis, a larger left rear is another way of a larger right front.
Either way, you increase pressure on the LR/RF, which turns left better thank RR/LF.
1:1 would be to put a larger RF/RR to stagger the chassis, but as stated earlier,
whichever works better for whichever chassis, for whichever track.
It's fun as heck to figure out, because some folks best are two different theories.


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