# LL M Chassis



## wheelszk (Jul 8, 2006)

Are there any good tips for tuning this chassis? Did a search on this topic and couldn't find any.
Thanks, Bill


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## roffutt (Jun 30, 2006)

What kind of track and layout?


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## wheelszk (Jul 8, 2006)

4x16 Bucktrack Scorpion.


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## wheelszk (Jul 8, 2006)

anybody?


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## Dyno Dom (May 26, 2007)

I would believe a 2 magnet inline to have more critical track tolerances in height vs. a 4 magnet inline. I have not really run this car. However, if height adjustments were made, keeping the chassis parallel to rails would be an objective. IMHO, height adj. of all 4 corners to evenly raise or lower chassis.


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## neorules (Oct 20, 2006)

Sort magnets, ream and match the bushings, increase motor brush tension by stretching the springs, make sure pick-up shoes are flat, try switching the pole piece to see which way the set-up works best-- flip it front to back and sort arms to find fast one.


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## LDThomas (Nov 30, 1999)

*The best way to go...*

Listen to neorules. He makes those LL's rock! :thumbsup:


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## bearsox (Apr 22, 2006)

*Check with John Verbich ( verb here on HT ) . Guys a great builder in lots of classes . I do know he lowers the bodies by moving the mounts and swaps out the rear tires with Road Rage .360's which helps a ton with downforce . Hope this helps ya out.

Dennis :thumbsup::thumbsup:/B]*


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## jeremy1082 (Apr 27, 2004)

Make sure motor brushes are making good contact and brush springs are not sticking. This is too common with the M chassis. I replaced mine with springs from a Tyco...slightly narrower so they don't get stuck in the brush barrels.


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## wheelszk (Jul 8, 2006)

Thanks for all the tips guys.
Bill


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## ben naelitz (Feb 7, 2007)

Here is another collective of SS LL tips coming from none other than "The Lifelike Hater" LOL......Talk about WEIRD! 
Another big thanks goes out to the Canton crew, especially Ben Naelitz....He the man!

Find yourself a good LL chassis, usually a #2 works well and I've heard the black chassis is better than the grey but I haven't seen any difference. A good chassis is one where the traction magnets(and motor  are flush with the bottom of the chassis so the entire magnet surface is running off the rail. Not all magnets will fit well in the chassis so try different ones preferably ones that are evenly matched and strong. 
Take two bulkheads and pop the bushing out of them. Now that you have done this sand the outsides of them with light sandpaper so they fit loosely in the bulkhead but not so loose that they fall out(don't laugh, I've done it . Before you put the bushings back in the bulkhead ream both sides of them with a conical reamer(a counter sink) so the arm shaft will be running on less surface(resistance). Now take a tyco axle and press it STRAIGHT through the bushing. The threads on the axle create grooves within the bushing to hold oil.(This lovely tip is compliments of zipper)
Put the bushing back in the bulkhead, it should fit loosely with in the bulkhead. Now find one of those great arms and put ONE spacer up front, you want the arm to fit VERY loosely in the chassis. It should have plentiful play back and forth, this is much different than any other car, but what do expect from a two magnet car? 
Now get yourself a silver electrical kit. Ream the brush tubes. Take the brush and cut about 40% of it off. Use a .006 brush spring, try cutting it to make it shorter and try keeping it standard length, I've had luck both ways. I think a lot of it has to do with the track power and the arm present. 
Now the front end....... There are many ways of securing a LL front end but only a few ways are legal!  One way is to slip some tubing over the axle so the front end fits tight under the guidepin. Or you can make a clip out of plastic that will wrap around the guidepin and hold the axle snug against the bottom of the chassis so you can run low tires. I usually run about .355 fronts but the size can vary greatly depending on how you make the front end snug and chassis variances.
Use whatever gear makes you moist in the rear end but a gear that works well that most people overlook is the stock tyco gear.... Most likely you will want to use higher gears(7:25 or maybe 7:24) though. A Quicker 25 tooth gear work awesome, I've found! Use a hollow axle, this isn't necessary but can be beneficiary. Rear tires can vary but the chassis' that you can run lower tires on seem to work the best. You want the car to just barely be off the track but not hitting or the car will get hot which causes the bushings to sink low in the bulkheads causing it to slow down. That is why the LL will sometimes be really fast when you put it on the track and slow down, but after it cools again it will be fast once again........ 
Put the car together and break the brushes in on a power supply or battery. Everything needs to be free, this is a MUST! The lifelike needs speed and by freeing the car up you should have adequate speed! 

Now that the car is built run the car, if it isn't running too well try different magnets until it does(BTW, remove the white stuff from the top of the magnets). If you keep fidgeting with different magnets, brush tension, and pickup tension and it still doesn't run well....there's always the VICE!!! I've found the vice to be the best tool ever for the LL, and so have so many others!!! LOL


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## Montoya1 (May 14, 2004)

bearsox said:


> *Check with John Verbich ( verb here on HT ) . Guys a great builder in lots of classes . I do know he lowers the bodies by moving the mounts and swaps out the rear tires with Road Rage .360's which helps a ton with downforce . Hope this helps ya out.
> Dennis :thumbsup::thumbsup:/B]*


*

I think it is fair to point out you make and sell the tires that you recommended, right?*


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## Slott V (Feb 3, 2005)

*From my HO Racing Tips page-*

Blueprint the LifeLike:
by Greg Williams

1.) Wizzard silver electrical kit but use stock brush springs or cut longer ones to .150" 
2.) Tyco pinion for better mesh.
3.) Pop bushings out of housings, place on a shaft and file, sand till they rotate freely. Rummor is the #1 and #3 are centered better.
4.) Take a counterbit and chamfer the bearing to narrow the bearing to reduce friction. 
5.) Ream bearing to make sure it allows the arm to spin freely.
6.) Get the strongest magnets you can find (use a bolt with washers to gauge strength) and match them.
7.) Make sure the chassis allows the magnets to go to the bottom of the chassis.
8.) Make sure the chassis is straight for both the magnets and wheelbase.
9.) I like the 7/25 ratio but some run Scale Auto's 18 or 22 gears for better top end.
10.) Some buy batches of arms and go thru them to find the fastest this includes popping a Tomy arm in.
11.) Run an independent delrin front end if allowed. Also Scale Auto's O ring setup works well (~.350")
12.) If allowed "pin" the front axle, get rid of the high top guide pin and put a pro guide pin in. The Tomy or Auroras work here. Glue it in!
13.) If your magnets are painted under the flux collector remove the paint.
14.) Pro setup of .350 fronts and .440 rears works well on most tracks. 
15.) Avoid dragging the chassis on the rails as heat is the number one killer of LLs!
16.) The LL is a momentum car. It likes tracks that flow and you're not on the throttle, on the brakes, on the throttle type. Basically just building up momentum and going faster and faster just feathering the brakes every now and then to gently scrub off speed. A controller with coast is welcomed.
17.) This is from the collective minds of the Arizona HO Racing Association (no, we're not the Borg!) We have no secrets, share all our knowledge and then try to beat the heck out of each other and put of state biggie races!


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## bearsox (Apr 22, 2006)

Montoya1 said:


> I think it is fair to point out you make and sell the tires that you recommended, right?


* Monty ,
Yes i make the tires however if another was used on the setup rest assured i would point them out as well. John just happens to use these because of the height issue. I used no links to my site and no while you there on my site look at blah blah blahs ! Just trying to be of help without doing a commercial.

Dennis*


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## neorules (Oct 20, 2006)

Dennis--- I've tried some of your slip-ons on the t-chassis LL. They are great!!! They are the smoothest surface slip-ons I've seen.


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## bearsox (Apr 22, 2006)

neorules said:


> Dennis--- I've tried some of your slip-ons on the t-chassis LL. They are great!!! They are the smoothest surface slip-ons I've seen.


*thanks brother !*


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## martybauer31 (Jan 27, 2004)

If you don't know by now that Dennis sells some of the best tires and wheels around, you've been under a rock... 

I think his post was well within line, no need to police him on that.


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## Montoya1 (May 14, 2004)

I agree with all that. I only wish he made both items in more sizes and colors!

But I do think if you are recommending something that you make, it is best to be explicit about it.


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## JVerb (Oct 6, 2006)

Ok guys here’s how this happened. Over a year ago we (guys that I race with at Park Lane Hobbies in Dyer Indiana) were messing around with a LL t chassis and I started changing rear tires on them. We went through pvt and some super tires and the cars were getting faster and faster. I had some fray cars sitting in my box that had Dennis’s 360s on them. Now these tires are made to go on a .225 rim, but I stretched them over the LL rear rims. They are about .412 to about .415 on the LL. This works well on a Tomy track. You should have black marks on the traction mags but the car still will get up and run on the straights and sits down in the corners. We race these cars in a box stock class with the only mod being slip on rear tires and lowering of the bodies. I had to tell Dennis how good the tires ran on the LL and he did not pay much attention to it until he raced with us a couple of times. I took a brand new LL right out of the package and put some of his tires on it and gave it to him to race and he was right in there with the fast guys. The only trouble was his eyes could not keep up with the car. I have not messed with the m chassis that much, I do like it but we were trying to come up with something that the average guy could buy and race without getting turned off with all of the hop up parts. I think that goal was accomplished with Dennis’s tires on the t chassis. Oh yeah if you have some track pieces that have some higher rail heights you will find them right away with this set up. We ended up using a piece of wood to tap the high spots down or in some cases replacing the offending track section. 

Peace, Verbinator


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## wheelszk (Jul 8, 2006)

JVerb
Thanks for your input. As you will note on my 1st post we will be running M chassis, NOT my choice. Can I still use the .360 tires? We will be on a 4x16 BuckTrack.
Bill


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## resinmonger (Mar 5, 2008)

*History Lesson for the Day!*

Great post, JVerb! Thanks for the history on the tires. I knew guys were swearing by them but I didn't know the origins of how they came to be used on a Life Like chassis! 

Keep on rocking in *The Region*, Verbinator! :thumbsup::thumbsup:

Hutt :drunk::hat::freak::dude:


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## Montoya1 (May 14, 2004)

I have found both the Rutherfords I have adapt well to being used with .275 and .280 wheels and on magnet cars.


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## resinmonger (Mar 5, 2008)

Word at the track is Dennis has a realitve named Johnny...:tongue:


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## JVerb (Oct 6, 2006)

Resinmonger, I have to ask, how did you come to know about the Region?

Peace, Verbinator


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## resinmonger (Mar 5, 2008)

I lived in central Indiana before I became a Hutt. My high school guvment teacher was from The Region. Later, my best man's wife was from The Region. Ya just gotta know people to know The Region. :thumbsup:


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

Other than that, Hutts just know.

We run the LL M chassis with stock tires and have a blast. 
All we do is make sure you have the soft LL tires, and sand off the glaze with a nail file or sand paper.
The M chassis is a great high speed sliding car. 
The placement of the magnets makes for good balance, even when the tires glaze back up late in the heat.
Some of the best races we've had have been with the M chassis this way.
The T chassis seems to turn out to be a car buying contest, whoever has the fastest one is gonna win hands down.
Then again, our track is all long straights, not very technical.
Technical tracks would most likely be a whole different story.

Rich


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## bearsox (Apr 22, 2006)

resinmonger said:


> Word at the track is Dennis has a realitve named Johnny...:tongue:


*LOL Sure ....you and my father are saying that but he couldn't present the lineage to prove it. 

Dennis :freak:*


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## bearsox (Apr 22, 2006)

Montoya1 said:


> I agree with all that. I only wish he made both items in more sizes and colors!


*BTW just so you know i have tires for the mega G , AFX and occasionally mess with some tyco stuff allthough i don't advertise them and only produce them when i have time and desire. I MAY start to carry some regularly and put some on my site but as yet haven't decides for sure. Also again so folks know it.... i make the .360's in red , white , blue , yellow , orange , and black . So a fun guy may think there are tires for an IROC run since lane colors are covered.

Dennis :dude:*


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## Montoya1 (May 14, 2004)

If you made more slip-on sizes I would for sure buy them, and looks like many others would too. I would also buy the colored wheels if you made .275 OD versions.


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## SuperFist (Aug 7, 2005)

*The Lifelike "M" Chassis*
_By: Dennis Sieck_

http://howorld.fsmra.com/archives/howto/tuneup/lifelike/tune.html

__________________


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## roffutt (Jun 30, 2006)

SuperFist said:


> *The Lifelike "M" Chassis*
> _By: Dennis Sieck_
> 
> http://howorld.fsmra.com/archives/howto/tuneup/lifelike/tune.html
> ...


:freak:










Picture #9.... " I use a dremel with a brass brush to remove all of the carbon residue, and most of the burn marks on the com, and give the com a nice bath in rubbing alcohol to clean all the little bits of residue and carbon off, figure 9." 

I would think the dremel part would do more damage then good. 

-Robbie


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## martybauer31 (Jan 27, 2004)

Yeah, that sounds like a good way to shred your com..... I chuck my arm in my dremel and spin the com over either a very, very fine sandpaper or use one of those nail polishing sticks, those seem to work really well for me.


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

The com is so accessible in the chassis, I just remove the rear axle, turn up the juice and clean the com in the chassis with a nail file. You can hear the difference. I usually do that while I'm getting ready for a race for the intimidation factor.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

Get yourself a 2 mm fiberglass "micro or ultra-thin fiberglass brush" or "scratch brush" from a jewelry or electronic tools and supplies house. These chuck right into 2 mm lead holders to put in your pit box and are "the ticket" for cleaning and polishing the comm _in the car_ for any motor that has an exposed commutator like a LL/Rokar M car, Tyco 440/X2, Wizzard, Slottech, etc. This is the same exact material that is used in the BSRT pickup shoe cleaner (which is also sold as a fiberglass scratch brush under other brand names - but the BSRT version is actually a better deal in most cases).

Here are a couple of places to get these: 
http://www.micro-tools.com/store/item_detail.aspx?ItemCode=BRS-290-01
http://www.micromark.com/ULTRA-MICRO-FIBERGLASS-BRUSH,7850.html
http://www.micromark.com/ULTRA-MICRO-FIBERGLASS-REFILLS-PKG-OF-12,7872.html

If you have a 2mm lead holder, aka, "2 mm mechanical drafting pencil with replaceable lead," which are sold in Michaels and other places and look something like this: http://www.bindersart.com/store/product/46415/B-4-Lead-Holder-2mm-/ you have everything you need for producing a smooth and shiny comm without destroying it. You can pay quite a few bucks for a lead holder depending on how fancy you want to get. I used one I had laying around from my drafting class in college. 

These things work remarkably well. Do not be deterred by the "scratch" in the name. These will not scratch your comm. Remove the rear axle so the motor spins freely. A 9V battery is usually more than enough. Let the tool do the work, very little pressure required. Clean off the residue with compressed air or a fine brush. The tiny brushes included with electric shaver kits are often the perfect size and shape brush for cleaning the recesses of HO slot cars.


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## resinmonger (Mar 5, 2008)

Cool tip, AfxToo! Looks like this would work on pick up shoes as well. Is that correct?


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

> Looks like this would work on pick up shoes as well. Is that correct?


These micro sized ones will work on shoes but the larger sized versions are better for shoes because they are wider. Get the larger size version for shoes, like the version BSRT sells at a good price. 

The micro versions are also very good for polishing all of the electrical contact points on race cars, especially TJets. I use mine to polish the contact point where the shoes pivot on the hangers, the contact window area on the hangers, the top of the TJet brush springs, the underside of Tyco/Wizzard shoes where they rub on the brush barrels, the contact point on brush barrels, etc. Anywhere there is a moving metal to metal electrical connection is fair game. The micro size can get in where the larger sizes cannot. But like I said, these really shine at polishing comms.


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## resinmonger (Mar 5, 2008)

Sweet! Thanks for giving us the tip. I've picked up some less than minty chassis on the bay that could really use some TLC. Some look like they actually came from a bay... :wave:


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## wheelszk (Jul 8, 2006)

Just wanted to say thanks to all that responded.:thumbsup: I guess it all paid off as I took 1st place with a total of 269 laps. 
Thanks again
Bill


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## resinmonger (Mar 5, 2008)

That's awesome news, Bill! Way to go!!! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## RiderZ (Feb 19, 2007)

*"M" chassis*

I have 9 excellent condition "M" chassis cars with the Nascar bodies for sale in the swap/sell section!!!


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