# Payout or no Payput that is the question



## brownie374 (Nov 21, 2007)

*Payout or no Payout that is the question*

Do you think payouts are a good thing or a bad thing?


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## tjettim (Nov 29, 2005)

Never pay cash.Give credit towards parts at a local
hobby shop,or give out prizes based on the classes
of cars you are racing.


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## noddaz (Aug 6, 1999)

*racing for money?*

imho not a good idea...


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## mking (Apr 25, 2000)

*Hopac*

charges an entry fee, some of which goes to food and drink, and some of which goes to plaques (usually 1st through 4th get a plaque). i like the idea of plaques rather than cash.


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## blubyu (May 4, 2008)

Payouts are always a good thing. Who has a problem with cash? We have done it for years WITH NO PROBLEMS, 1/2 of the nights entries goes to the top 3 the other 1/2 into the pot for full payout to everyone who has made 4 or more races (12).


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## neorules (Oct 20, 2006)

Blubyu--- sounds like a good incentive program to get people to committ to racing. You can't argue with success.


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## martybauer31 (Jan 27, 2004)

In my opinion it seems like it would be a bad idea.... It just sort of seems like the lure of money to race turns it from a hobby and something fun into a sport where people are going to be trying to bend the rules (even more than usual). Especially if the same 3 or 4 guys are the only ones winning every time, I could see that getting old really fast....


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## blubyu (May 4, 2008)

Come on $5.00 is a lure? Theres not any real big Money like F1,NASCAR or IRL. It's still a hobby and everyone shares tips and setup.....It's still all about the race. The chump change if you make the podium is extra! I guess if you would have problems with any racers I wouldn't want them around anyway. Only 1 DQ in over 130 races (wide axle/tires).


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## brownie374 (Nov 21, 2007)

I like the payout but so far it dosent seem real popular.


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## Mike R (Nov 26, 2007)

I presume you are talking about payouts for getting a podium finish at your local raceway. The only logical way to do it, where everyone wins and the raceway stays in business, is a payout in track bucks where the money stays with the track. Every racer can always use spare parts and the raceway needs the support if you want somewhere to race.

Mike R


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## eastside johnny (May 13, 2008)

We just started our 29th year long season here at North Coast H.O. & we for the most part now run slip on silicone classes & not any high tech, higher dollar stuff. Trying to keep it simple & FUN. Most nights are two classes, but a few nights there are three. We also have several "House Car" IROC style classes that are mixed in over the 25/26 yearly dates. It costs $5 a night to race. $1 per person goes to the track owner, $1 per person goes into the club's general fund, & the remaining $3 goes towards the point funds for the classes where we run our own cars or to the "House Car" class to fund the cost of & maintenance of those cars. If there are two classes it's $1.50 to each, if there are three then it's $1 to each. at the end of the yearly season the funds are paid out for each of the classes that we run our personal cars in. $1 goes to each race winner and then 50% of each fund is paid out based on race attendance. For example, If 5 racers made ALL of the series races & another 5 made all but one race, the 50% would be divided into 15 "shares" with 2 shares going to each of the 5 who made all the shows and 1 share to each of those that only missed one time. Kind of a guaranteed return regardless of performance. The remaining 50% is paid out based on final point standings. Ultimately there is some reward for performing better but also some reward for participating. It works for us. Just paying the top tends to mostly go to the same racers that always tend to rise to the top and then you'll have some guys that are there every race & maybe never get anything back. In all of the years of doing this, not only with our club but traveling to run with other clubs & groups, I've consistently seen several levels within the clubs, with a few very good and involved racers at the top, a few that are there & having fun, but just not into making the cars or themselves run very well, and then the rest hovering in between. It's important to keep EVERYONE having fun and enjoying the races enough to keep coming back. I have seen some groups with very fast and intense racers that eventually drove everyone else away & then ended up without enough races to keep it going. 
Really what it all comes down to is to run classes and races that fit the interests of the majority core of the group that is there race after race.


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## bearsox (Apr 22, 2006)

*Rick ,
i'm also ok with a payout but as has been mentioned shop bucks may be best as the owner has a return. Perhaps since the same guys likely will be on the podium.... 50% of the payout goes to the top dog and 50% of the payout goes to a random hat draw . This would atleast allow the B , C and D main guys a shot at some shop bucks. Ofcoarse then the true split from monies collected would be 50% of total to shop / track owner and 25% to winner and 25% to random guy. Everyone then has a chance and the shop or track owner gets even more benefits when using the system as 100% comes back in 1 way or another. Just my thoughts and i've been wrong often so if it don't sound good no harm no foul LOL !:woohoo::woohoo::woohoo::wave:

Dennis *


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## brownie374 (Nov 21, 2007)

I like the 50% to the winner and 50% to random draw.That is a good approach.


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## blubyu (May 4, 2008)

brownie374, hows your wall material working out? Any luck on the strips from Menards? Remember it's not about the Money..


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## carl72 (Feb 13, 2007)

As far as Im concerned payoffs ruined our local raceway ,we started off with 30 to 40 entries per night with in a couple of months the track had to close down the hobby shop is still open 20yrs.and still going strong.What caused the fall off of racers was the pay off the same 3-4 guys would win every night I was told by someone they should just give there money to those 3-4 guys and just stay home which they did and finally more and more felt the same way and the track closed and sold.

Carl


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

> Do you think payouts are a good thing or a bad thing?


It's really up to: #1) the venue, and #2) the participants. If you are racing at a commercial track in a race series organized and run by the store owner then the lion's share, or the entire, entry fees should go to the shop owner, with the shop owner having the option of determining the prizes that will be awarded. May just be ribbons or bragging rights.

Other than that it's really up to the group of racers, racing club, organization, etc., to decide how the prizes will be awarded and whether cash and/or merchandise will be part of the incentive. No different than a bunch of friends getting together for a friendly game of poker. 

Some of the larger racing organizations, some race promoters, shop owners, and even some of the old farts in the hobby often come up with creative ways to make sure everyone goes home with some sort of a prize after a big race. If it was only about the cash and prize payouts then most of us would forever be in an insurmountable deficit situation when you tally the financial investment in the racing accoutrements that we're surrounded by. If you have a healthy race program going on, the non monetary rewards will far exceed the payouts.


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## blubyu (May 4, 2008)

Carl, sorry to hear about that! But your kidding me that the other 27 or 37 racers couldn't step up to the plate and hit one out? Were they trying?


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## brownie374 (Nov 21, 2007)

They werent trying hard enough,thats why they didnt win. I havent made it to menards yet,holidays and all.Hope to have it up by my next race.


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## TEAM D.V.S. (Nov 11, 2007)

*payouts*



blubyu said:


> Payouts are always a good thing. Who has a problem with cash? We have done it for years WITH NO PROBLEMS, 1/2 of the nights entries goes to the top 3 the other 1/2 into the pot for full payout to everyone who has made 4 or more races (12).


it reminds me of a bowling league. even if you do bad all year you know you will get $ back at the end of the year.


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## martybauer31 (Jan 27, 2004)

blubyu said:


> Come on $5.00 is a lure? Theres not any real big Money like F1,NASCAR or IRL. It's still a hobby and everyone shares tips and setup.....It's still all about the race. The chump change if you make the podium is extra! I guess if you would have problems with any racers I wouldn't want them around anyway. Only 1 DQ in over 130 races (wide axle/tires).


He asked for OPINIONS.... that was mine, you don't have to like it... I said not a word about your comments...

Your being argumentative and questioning everyone that disagrees or has had issues with it doesn't make you any more right, and isn't going to find you any new friends.

You clearly like making money for racing, good for you.


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

I would like to make a six figure living out of racing slot cars, the way just hasn't been discovered yet. When I find it, I'll let you know. All these percentages confuse me though, what percent goes to the Teamsters?

Donald Tyco Trump


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## blubyu (May 4, 2008)

I'm clearly not getting Rich Racing slotcars it's just a Hobby. Win some lose some....


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## TX Street Racer (May 8, 2004)

Would I like to make some money racing slots?? sure, I guess so....BUT, if I were to win a race I'd most likely be more excited about winning a plaque or award to keep forever in my hobby room----OR some track cash to use towards more parts or cars.

I would rather see a local track thrive and survive for the longterm, then a handfull of people raking in $10-$20 a week each for just showing up to race.

If I had 2-3 people that kept winning I'd work my arse off to beat them. Probably just working on one's driving skills is what was needed to beat those that keep winning-----car setup is important too :thumbsup:


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## tjettim (Nov 29, 2005)

A draw system for race prizes is a must.The race winners
will keep coming back if you have a point system and
year end trophies anyway.


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## Sundance (May 5, 2003)

I raced a raceway ( 1/24th cars) for cash for a number of years. During that time I saw two things happen. Race winner came down to cubic dollars and the racing became very bloodthristy to the point of fist fights. That's when I got out. I was there to have a good time and race, not to be purposly taken out. I myself ran a HO race program for a local shop. We used the tickets good for items in the shop. That worked ok but you still had the same set of guys winning. As for people not trying hard enough some people just dont have that little extra skill or the time to work on thier cars. We had a number of racers who didn't have home tracks to test or practice on. It showed. Lot of the top racers would build cars and give them away trying to help the racers that didn't have the skills or the track. We were as high as 20 racers and have dwindle to about 5 core racers. I just as soon race for bragging rights as anything. It keeps it fun and doesn't invite the cheaters in. And thats what I have to say. Tim :wave::woohoo:


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

> I just as soon race for bragging rights as anything.


I completely agree, personally, but i understand that others may not feel the same way and I'm cool with that. For me, the prize is in the participation, just being there, amongst friends and co conspirators in this cool little world that we get to enjoy. That's what it is all about. I feel exactly the same way about all aspects of the hobby. If you're making money doing it, it's a job. If you ain't making money, it's a hobby.


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## Mark C. (Dec 27, 2008)

correct me if im wrong but i always thought thier was legalities to why Raceways (a business) couldnt do payouts , example: a 10 year old kid races against 20 guys and wins and brings home 200 bucks? isnt that the same as gambling? i heard in the 60's when slot car racing was much like the world series of poker is nowadays that money was a part of the hobby perhpas laws werent so stirct about that stuff, but i have been racing for 8 years now and every single raceway i have been to only gives Track bucks to buy parts and other mechendise for placing on the podium


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## carl72 (Feb 13, 2007)

Sundance said:


> I raced a raceway ( 1/24th cars) for cash for a number of years. During that time I saw two things happen. Race winner came down to cubic dollars and the racing became very bloodthristy to the point of fist fights. That's when I got out. I was there to have a good time and race, not to be purposly taken out. I myself ran a HO race program for a local shop. We used the tickets good for items in the shop. That worked ok but you still had the same set of guys winning. As for people not trying hard enough some people just dont have that little extra skill or the time to work on thier cars. We had a number of racers who didn't have home tracks to test or practice on. It showed. Lot of the top racers would build cars and give them away trying to help the racers that didn't have the skills or the track. We were as high as 20 racers and have dwindle to about 5 core racers. I just as soon race for bragging rights as anything. It keeps it fun and doesn't invite the cheaters in. And thats what I have to say. Tim :wave::woohoo:


Tim you said it the way I should have stated it- Thanks

Carl


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

When did slot car racing become a game of chance, i.e., a gambling venture? Kids are routinely awarded cash prizes for things like writing contests and chess tournaments. Merchandise has a cash value, so it doesn't matter if it's a product or the cold hard cash that it would take to purchase the product. Now, if your kid is raking in major coin from slot car racing, the IRS will want to know about it.


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## Mark C. (Dec 27, 2008)

the quesion im asking is if a kid pays a $10 entry fee to enter a race and thier is a payout..isnt that the same thing as gambling in the mind of the "law" i still beleive thier is some legality there that raceways cannot pay out cash. whats the difference between that same 10 year old kid entering a race for $10 and winning a payout or going across the street and buying a lottery ticket for $10 and winning 100, or betting on the horses


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## brownie374 (Nov 21, 2007)

Tha question was not about cash payouts it was about PAYOUTS!


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## Mark C. (Dec 27, 2008)

some were talking about cash payouts, kenny piccola ( a racer at my raceway and a good friend of mine )who raced in the 60's said they use to race for cash, the bicentenal race they dumped 1,001 dolalrs in the middle of the track and said whoever wins gets it.(reminds me of what they do at the world series of poker when the last 2 guys are heads up but i guess raceways stopped that due to new laws? or something anyways

as for payouts such as raceway certificates,trophies and other things like thati ts what keeps racers like me happy, gives me something to work towards, then again i race ho cars at guys houses on a wed. night ,no pay outs of any kind nor any entry fee..just good old fun racing , but i think raceways need to have something like payouts and trophies to keep young and old racers alike interested, nothing like walking past someones slot car box and seeing several box plaques shining espically your own box :woohoo:


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## carl72 (Feb 13, 2007)

Mark your so right about plaques and trophies but for some reason when money is involved the mentality of some people change big time.We also race every Sunday as a club at my track and another members track no fees just have fun and race.


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## Mark C. (Dec 27, 2008)

lol slot car racing has enough drama with rule changes, cheating in some degree,same top dogs winning..etc. just for fun and or trophies and points ...putting money on the line as a prize would only make it much worse and most likely kill the hobby, 

but i honestly dont think enough people support each others raceways, for me and a group of guys that race in franklin square at slotsalot..you can always catch us at the 5 other raceways in the area when they have racing...spend $5 , buy a soda at the track or a few pairs of braid thier are far to few raceways out there we all need to race at different raceways, as for some track owners this seems like going over to the enemys camp...like drinkin pepsi in a coke cola factory, but without the support of other raceways, distrubators and slot car manf. die off ,the model car companys are a perfect example , and can anyone name more then 5 slot car companys that are going to still be around in another 10 years espically at this rate of the econmy? no more nascar decals for nascar not even Parma can get the licensing rights because thier arent enough demand for them to pay for, sure parma could buy some stickers but they would have to charge something like 35 dollars a sheet for a #3 or #88 dale jr. stickers, and ebay is the death of slotcar racing, instead of savin $10 by buying 100 pairs of braid on ebay..please spend the money at the racetrack or spend the extra 5 on a slotcar body at the raceway,unless its something very unique or something you cannot find at any raceway then by all means go on ebay and have a hoot but the rent for these raceways are too expensive ,the amount of room needed to run a decent slot car raceway is much more expensive then it use to be . if you want the hobby to be around for your grandkids then stop buying generic parts on ebay, or your grandkids will know slot car racing as much as video arcades or rollar skating rinks and drive in movies...im a little more up on the popular culture then most 19 year olds


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## neorules (Oct 20, 2006)

Marc said: "the quesion im asking is if a kid pays a $10 entry fee to enter a race and thier is a payout..isnt that the same thing as gambling in the mind of the "law" i still beleive thier is some legality there that raceways cannot pay out cash. whats the difference between that same 10 year old kid entering a race for $10 and winning a payout or going across the street and buying a lottery ticket for $10 and winning 100, or betting on the horses"

I think you are confusing retaining amateur status, with Gambling. Really, racing is a game of skill not chance. Winning $ beyond expenses jeopordizes amateur staus for possible other competitions.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

Mark, I think you bring up a lot of things that are legitimate concerns in the hobby, besides the one that is the focus of this thread. Each of them could be the topic of their own threads could spin for weeks on end without resolution. 

It's tough to come up with answers that make everyone happy. It's far easier to come up with ways to make everyone unhappy, and some organizations use this approach as a way to reach a warped sense of unity across a group bound together by mutual dissent against something or someone else. But that's a sad compatriotism and I think it's far better to try and do the right thing for the most number of people and recognize that there will always be a few who are not going to be happy, not matter what you say or do to accommodate them. All you can really do is to be supportive of your colleagues and respect the fact that they have different yet equal opinions. It's sometimes easier to influence change at the grass roots level than to make a public proclamation and try to steer everyone over to new ways, or your way, of looking at things.


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## Mark C. (Dec 27, 2008)

perfectly said AFXtoo


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## gonegonzo (Jan 18, 2006)

The raceway that my grandson race at gives you a ticket when you enter the race. At the end of the rcae he pulls one ticket per group of 8. The winning ticket gets a new motor or parts needed for his class of racing =ing the price of a motor 10/12 bucks.

We are happy with this and the raceway holds together for us to race next week. We all buy our parts there, not on E-Bay. E-Bay doesn't maintain racetracks for us to race on. 

I've also been to garage races where there have been sponsors from slot car vendors to the guy down the street giving a steak dinner. The prizes are given in order of the win. If you came in 1st, you come up and take your pick of the prizes on the table. It goes thru the whole group of racers and if there is anything left, it starts all over again until the prizes are gone. That's grass roots racing.

Bottom line is, there should be somthing other than bragging rites. Besides, there is a limit to plauqes. After the fifth or sixth on you box, your burned out on them.

Gonzo


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## pup1970 (Apr 2, 2008)

The track I used to race at would have a normal race line up and then would have one class for money payout. That way the ones who wanted to race for cash could in one class and the rest could just have fun. Amazingly, the money class dropped off real quick when it turned out to be the same guy or guys winning all the time.


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## fl_slotter (Jan 14, 2009)

In MNSHO payouts, when done properly, can be a great thing. However, when not done properly are nothing more than a subsidy to the fast guys to just go faster.

Most payouts work on a percentage of the entry fees collected. If a race takes in say $200 and the 40% is paid out, and 40% is to 1st, 30% to 2nd, 20% to 3rd and 10% to 4th, then the winner gets $32 of that money. It gives the racers a reason to try to win - cuts down their cost of racing. The new guy, who just paid all his hard earned cash to buy a car, controller and entry fee - you know the one that finished last because they thought RTR means "Ready to Race" walks out thinking they just got stung for a couple of hundred dollars.

The most innovative payout happens at The Raceway, which is coincidently where I race. Bill Pinch has come up with a way where EVERYBODY receives a payout from participating in a race. He has a system where he makes up cars - usually business cards for the raceway - that have the amount won on the back. The amount ranges from a "ZONK" where you get nothing up to a "FEFFR" (Future Entry Fee For Racing). After the racing concludes, starting with either the top or the bottom of the field - you never know and I don't think Bill does either - start drawing by your place of finish. It is a blind drawing based on "pick a card". To me that really works. I have seen new racers leave the building on a cloud as they have won a free entry to another race. They always come back!

Try it, you might like it!


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