# Questions from a photo etch virgin



## Aurorafan (Jun 16, 2001)

Hey everyone- I keep reading threads about photo etch kits for the seaview, and I've seen images of them, but I'm not 100% clear on the final result. Are these just paper-thin sheets of metal? I see PE antennas, beams and tiny seaviews, but are they merely flat? Is there a web site or link that can better show the benefits of PE? I'm very green in this regard.

thanks


----------



## Auroranut (Jan 12, 2008)

Hi Aurorafan,
Photoetched parts are 2 dimentional pieces of brass or stainless steel used to add detail to a kit. They can be half (relief) etched to give a roughly 3 dimensional look, but it's always flat. It can be bent or rolled to make boxes or cylinders. The beauty of most photoetch is that it can provide detail that's impossible to achieve with injection molded parts. Things like antennae can be given a more 3 dimensional look with white glue or paint.
There's heaps of info out there on working with photoetch- just google it.

Chris.


----------



## AJ-1701 (May 10, 2008)

Aurorafan said:


> Hey everyone- I keep reading threads about photo etch kits for the seaview, and I've seen images of them, but I'm not 100% clear on the final result. Are these just paper-thin sheets of metal? I see PE antennas, beams and tiny seaviews, but are they merely flat? Is there a web site or link that can better show the benefits of PE? I'm very green in this regard.
> 
> thanks


Like you I was a pe virgin too  but mate, let me say this I used Paulbo's pe set for the flying sub and it was a dream to use. It just is the way to go for extra dimension as Chris ^^ says. I found it easy to use and it practicaly made itself. My only little regret was that I did my Seaview before the big pe set that Paul did came out.  And if the flying sub set is anything to go on the big one would be just as sweeet to work with. :thumbsup:

Cheers,
Alec


----------



## Trekkriffic (Mar 20, 2007)

I bought Paulbo's Seaview set. The level of detail is amazing. I don't have much experience with PE either but his instructions are very thorough. The tables and chairs come flat so you need to fold the legs and such into the final position. CA glue (or solder) is used to glue pieces together and onto the sub. Some pieces like the radar dish need to be gently curved which requires heating the PE to get it to relax so it won't spring back to the original shape. Sounds daunting but the final result shoudl be well worth the effort.


----------



## Paulbo (Sep 16, 2004)

Thanks for the kudos Alec & Trek and thanks for the question Aurorafan.

Yes, the photoetch is flat ... to begin with. Whether it stays flat depends on the application. 

For the control panels and such for the LiS Space Pod, for example, all of the parts remain flat, but the mount for the front "radiator grill" are bent to create the box and locator tabs. 

On the Seaview set, some of the pieces ultimately need to be formed to the proper final shape - the antennae Trek mentioned, and the limber hole plates. Forming requires the metal be annealed (heated and cooled) ahead of time to make it softer and more pliable.

One of great advantages of photoetch is that it can have detail engraved down to about 0.003" in width, far smaller than any detail you'd ever find in an injection molded kit. For the Space Pod, I actually "drilled out" the holes for the individual lighted buttons - some as small as 0.02" in diameter which could never be molded in. (Well, it could, but I'm guessing not for a price that any of us would want to spend!)

A limitation of photoetch is that detail is either engraved either half- or all-the-way through. In some ways, though, this spurs ingenuity with the design - to get the design I needed for the Space Pod radiator, I ended up doing a 2 layer design to get the raised frame, inset grill, and solid backing.

On the major plus side - photoetch is completely opaque so it's idea for control panels and such as it blocks lighting while providing superior detail.

Your question prompted me to finally post the instructions for the Seaview set to my site: http://www.modeling.paragrafix.com/products/seaview-enhancements.asp - these can give you a good idea of how the material is worked with.

Also, check out the bottom of my Flying Sub page - http://www.modeling.paragrafix.com/products/flyingsub-interior.asp#photos . Alec kindly let me use pictures of his buildup and they show far more than simple words can convey.

John Lester of Starship Modeler has written a very good primer on working with photoetched parts: http://www.starshipmodeler.com/tech/jl_pe.htm

PE is not tough to work with - it's just different from what we're generally used to, so it looks a bit scary at first.

I hope this helps!


----------



## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

Photo etch is thin, but can be bent into shape. I am just now working on this Skif brand T-64 Russian Tank with an added Eduard photo-etch set










The various screens and grills simply glue over the molded plastic kit grills. They are easy to use and make the engine deck look much better. The white rod shaped item in the middle is a scratch build spanner, with small photo-etch brackets added. The brackets are folded into shape, and represent the clips used to hold the tool to the rear deck. You can't see it here, but there are TINY wing nuts on the clips. The housing on the right rear of the tank has a photo-etch top plate with opened louvers. The louvers are etched more thinly than the rest of the piece, and you form them into position by pressing them from behind to make them three dimensional. On the far left you can see a 3-d bracket made of p-e sticking up.

Photo etch is used for a variety of reasons. Mostly its to make fine details like screens and handles that you can't mold in plastic. The Seaview radar is a perfect candidate... Or it is meant to replace kit parts that aren't accurate or even included. You see a rectangular flat panel on my tank hull that replaces an inaccurate area on the kit. Some of the etch handles I added (the triangles) replace crude blobby things cast onto the kit parts. You may also find photo etch used to fold larger parts like boxes, the interior of the little Flying Sub, etc. 

I glue most of my etch in place with Gator's Grip Glue, a very sticky acrylic based glue. Larger parts I often solder and then file the joint smooth.


----------



## Aurorafan (Jun 16, 2001)

Thank you Paulbo and everyone else for such speedy and thorough information. my plans for a cutaway seaview may call for this level of detail.


----------



## Paulbo (Sep 16, 2004)

You're very welcome Aurora.

Not that I'm pushing you to buy my products (much  ), but I think you'll be well served with the interior add-ons - ceiling girders, furniture, etc., none of which are included in the original kit.


----------



## jbond (Aug 29, 2002)

I am curious about the "annealing" process since this is one aspect of photo-etch I haven't dealt with and it sounds a little daunting. If I understand it the entire piece has to be made red hot, then allowed to cool--and after that it will be easy to bend into shape? Or does the bending have to be done while the piece is heated (which really sounds challenging if not dangerous to me). I'm not sure what the best way to heat a large brass plate like the limber hole plates for the Seaview would be...


----------



## Admiral Nelson (Feb 28, 2002)

Do you have to sand the photoetch before applying the glue?


----------



## rondenning (Jul 29, 2008)

Let the PE cool COMPLETELY before you bend it to shape!!:thumbsup:
It should be easy to bend after the annealing, even placeing it over a part that has curvature and gently bending it to the curvature of the part it will cover. If it will be curved ALOT(or the part it will cover is to fragile to bend the PE on), then you may want to work the part over a metal form like the ball-end of a ballpeen hammer, or some other rounded/curved shape that will allow you to work it a little at a time till you have the shape you want!
Take your time(patience truly is a *must* in this process), and it will be fine!
Ron:devil:


----------



## Trekkriffic (Mar 20, 2007)

jbond said:


> I am curious about the "annealing" process since this is one aspect of photo-etch I haven't dealt with and it sounds a little daunting. If I understand it the entire piece has to be made red hot, then allowed to cool--and after that it will be easy to bend into shape? Or does the bending have to be done while the piece is heated (which really sounds challenging if not dangerous to me). I'm not sure what the best way to heat a large brass plate like the limber hole plates for the Seaview would be...


I got one of these Bernzomatic micro torches to heat the PE:
http://bernzomatic.com/PRODUCTS/TOR...etail/mid/1260/xmid/6950/xmfid/3/Default.aspx

40% off at my local hardware store. Runs on butane. Can also function as a soldering iron. I've thought about getting one for awhile for other uses so was really happy to pay under 10 bucks for it.


----------



## rondenning (Jul 29, 2008)

Oh yea,
Put the parts you wish to anneal on a piece of aluminum foil, on a cookie sheet, in your oven, then turn on the oven to around 400 degrees, and leave it for an hour. Then, turn off the oven, and let the parts cool *completely* before removeing them from the oven.
They should be ready to shape after that!
Ron:devil:


----------



## Trekkriffic (Mar 20, 2007)

rondenning said:


> Let the PE cool COMPLETELY before you bend it to shape!!:thumbsup:
> It should be easy to bend after the annealing, even placeing it over a part that has curvature and gently bending it to the curvature of the part it will cover. If it will be curved ALOT(or the part it will cover is to fragile to bend the PE on), then you may want to work the part over a metal form like the ball-end of a ballpeen hammer, or some other rounded/curved shape that will allow you to work it a little at a time till you have the shape you want!
> Take your time(patience truly is a *must* in this process), and it will be fine!
> Ron:devil:


Can you hammer it into shape after annealing ?


----------



## rondenning (Jul 29, 2008)

I don't know about hammering it!! Most PE parts are so small that would be all for that part!
After you have annealed a part it is really softer than you think and is quit easy to bend/form. You can heat the parts with a butane torch or over the stove-top burners, but be CAREFULL!!(I had a friend who accidentally melted an expensive PE part sheet with a butane micro-torch) the biggest trick here is to EVENLY heat the parts, so as to have a uniform softness to the part or sheet.
If only some of the parts on the sheet need to be annealed, I recommend removeing all the parts from the sheet *except* those you need to heat, and leave them on the base sheet to make it easier to not drop or otherwise lose them. I like the oven method the most, and depending on the PE sheet(thickness, and the metal it is made from) you may need to put the oven on broil at about 500 degrees to make sure, but you can put it in before going to bed, and after the hour time is up(plenty of time for the oven to come up to temperature, and bring the parts up to temp.) just turn off the oven and go to bed. In the morning it is all cooled down, ready to go!!:thumbsup:
Ron:devil:


----------



## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

I just hold the part in a tweezer and in the flame of a lighter or candle. No biggie. Unless you are annealing something like a fine mesh, you won't burn up or damage the part. The small louvered piece in the picture I posted was annealed.

Do not quench the part in liquid to cool it... that just resets the metal molecules again making the piece hard.

You generally don't have to sand the part. Most are too small and fragile to sand a lot anyway. They are as thin as a hair or so sometimes.


----------



## Paulbo (Sep 16, 2004)

Thanks for all the great advice on working with photoetch everyone. A quick thing to remember is that etch isn't tough to work with - a couple of extra new techniques, but nothing really difficult.

A quick note for the Seaview limber holes - since these are fairly large pieces of etch, I don't recommend the lighter or candle technique for annealing them as this can result in uneven heating. This can result in metal that doesn't bend consistently creating kinks or flat spots.

The oven technique is much better for something this large.

Also, never (ever!) try to bend etch while it's hot. You'll either burn the living heck out of your fingers or (if you're matching a curve on a model) melt some plastic.

As far as hammering into shaper after annealing ... yes, I suppose it could be done, but I can't imagine a time when it would be necessary. Once annealed the brass is quite flexible.


----------



## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

Why would you have to bend the limber hole parts? (I have not seen them) but it seems since the areas where the holes are is flat there is no need to bend them. There is a slight curve length-wise at the stern but that requires no bending.


----------



## Paulbo (Sep 16, 2004)

Although the limber hole area is flat in the vertical direction, it is curved horizontally at both the front and rear of the boat. Sure, you can bend the un-annealed etch to match that curvature pretty easily but you don't want to run the risk of the metal's natural springy-ness pulling the part away from the model several days or months down the line.

On a side note - just got this month's Fine Scale Modeler and there's an article on using PE parts to detail a destroyer. I haven't read it yet, but I don't think it goes into a lot of what we've been discussing in this thread, but it does show some nice example of PE detailing.


----------

