# My Ultimate, Maybe-Gonna-Be-Done-For-The-50th-Anniversary, 1/350 TOS Enterprise!



## Gregatron

It begins.


On a whim, tonight, I broke out my 1/350 TOS _Enterprise_ kit, and 
began washing the parts to clean off mold release.

Now, I still have a lot of other projects in the pipe, but, I felt that it's time to start on this. I'd like it to be completed by Sept. 8, 2016. And, with the elaborate plans I have, it's gonna take time. Need to start working on ideas for the display base/case, and planning out the electronics.


First things first. Will I show off the interiors (Bridge, hangar deck), or 
stick with a purely exterior model? Replace the Round 2 kit's nacelle 
motors? Gotta start making some decisions.

The base and electronics are the hard part, here. For starters, I'm not the most electronics-savvy.

I'm armed with a 3-ring binder full of tips, tricks, and reference materials, the weathering decals (though I'll likely use pastel chalks), the R2 and Paragrafix photoetch, and the R2 light kit. Been preparing for this for years, really.


My goals:

* Extreme attention to accuracy in detailing and weathering patterns. Possibly penciled gridlines, unless I can devise a way to fill/preshade the engraved grids so as to provide a very subtle look.

* Quieting/replacing the fan motors, and accurately replicating the lighting effects.

* A nice display base/case, with a backlit STAR TREK logo, and separate control buttons for the lights and engine motors (so that the lights can be run without the engine fans running all the time).

* Installing a speaker and USB sound module into the base, so as to play sound effects and/or "_Enterprise_ flyby" music cues taken from La-La-Land's complete TOS soundtrack collection.

* Moving the pcbs into the base, in case they fail. I'm leery about installing them into the model itself. I should be able to use a pin connector to attach the model to the base, right? Any suggestions for a good one?


So...first things first. Any thoughts from the experts on the electronics feasibility of what I plan? I haven't tested the Round 2 electronics, yet. Are the flasher blink rates reasonably accurate? Would separating the motor function from the lights with its own switch be a problem?

Any suggestions for alternate/aftermarket electronics, or a display case big enough to fit this girl?

I'm gonna need help figuring out the electronics portion of this project, guys! 


Slow and steady wins the race. I'm not jumping head-first into this (yet), but it's time to start working on it. (*deep breath*)


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## KUROK

Go - For - It !!!!


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## WOI

What kind of liquid did you use to wash off the mold release from the
parts of your 1/350 enterprise kit,and where can I get it?


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## Trekkriffic

If you want to run the motors separate from the lights with a switch in the base you'll need a 4-pin connector at minimum. 2 contacts for the lights and 2 to run the motors. There's plenty of space to run 4 wires up each nacelle strut so that's not an issue. As far as blink rates using the R2 lighting kit, they seem to be one second on, one second off. This applies to the strobes at the aft end of the secondary hull too although I went a different route (no choice really since the PC board socket for those blinkers didn't work) and mine blink much faster.

I'm going to enjoy following your progress. You do superior work.


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## Gregatron

WOI said:


> What kind of liquid did you use to wash off the mold release from the
> parts of your 1/350 enterprise kit,and where can I get it?


Just filled a wash basin (and a few bowls for the small parts) with standard dishwashing detergent, let the parts soak for a while, then rinsed and scrubbed them down.


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## Gregatron

Trekkriffic said:


> If you want to run the motors separate from the lights with a switch in the base you'll need a 4-pin connector at minimum. 2 contacts for the lights and 2 to run the motors. There's plenty of space to run 4 wires up each nacelle strut so that's not an issue. As far as blink rates using the R2 lighting kit, they seem to be one second on, one second off. This applies to the strobes at the aft end of the secondary hull too although I went a different route (no choice really since the PC board socket for those blinkers didn't work) and mine blink much faster.
> 
> I'm going to enjoy following your progress. You do superior work.



Not as good as yours, my friend! I just wing it. Research and planning is 70% of the work! and that's my strong area. Actual technique and build-cleanliness are areas I constantly fudge my way through. And, considering that electronics are a huge blind spot for me, I'm more than a bit apprehensive.

But, hey, that's why it's called a "challenge"!


Next step--light-blocking the interiors (with silver, then gloss white), examining the R2 light kit, and test-fitting the window inserts.


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## Richard Baker

Are you thinking about putting some random colors/shapes off set behind the windows to give them some depth?


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## Gregatron

Richard Baker said:


> Are you thinking about putting some random colors/shapes off set behind the windows to give them some depth?




My plan is to replicate--as exactly as possible, with minimal idealization (aside from things like symmetrical windows on the port side)--the specific appearance of the studio model as it appeared during the production run of the series. So, no aztecing, no lit impulse engines, no detail/shadowcasters behind the windows (aside from the colored windows and the mesh in the dorsal pylon).


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## Trekkriffic

Gregatron said:


> Next step--light-blocking the interiors (with silver, then gloss white), examining the R2 light kit, and test-fitting the window inserts.


When I built mine I had three layers of light block- black, silver, then white. Maybe overkill but it did the trick.


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## Gregatron

What about the smoked window inserts? I get the impression that they'll need to be light-blocked, too.


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## Trekkriffic

Gregatron said:


> What about the smoked window inserts? I get the impression that they'll need to be light-blocked, too.


The smoked inserts? I glued them in with 5-minute epoxy (won't harm your paint) then covered them with adhesive-backed aluminum mylar. Went all the way out and overlapped the edge too. The edge of the insert will transmit light if it's not blocked.


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## RossW

As Trekkriffic noted, the PL light kit doesn't quite get the running lights right and the strobes for the secondary hull are completely off (it's the same rate for both). I built this little add on to plug into the Pl board to fix the running lights while providing blink rate options, including the secondary hull strobe rate.

http://youtu.be/2ndWyKt7BOs?list=UUI2sKEjlHafqmcpsZ0rxbmA

The warp engines are going to be more tricky if you want to make the 5 blinkers more random. For the engines, Trekkriffic has the best solution with a DC motor - I'm working on using steppers which should be more quiet.


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## Gregatron

RossW said:


> As Trekkriffic noted, the PL light kit doesn't quite get the running lights right and the strobes for the secondary hull are completely off (it's the same rate for both). I built this little add on to plug into the Pl board to fix the running lights while providing blink rate options, including the secondary hull strobe rate.
> 
> http://youtu.be/2ndWyKt7BOs?list=UUI2sKEjlHafqmcpsZ0rxbmA
> 
> The warp engines are going to be more tricky if you want to make the 5 blinkers more random. For the engines, Trekkriffic has the best solution with a DC motor - I'm working on using steppers which should be more quiet.


Hmmm. I haven't done a lot of research on the blink rates. I get the impression that non-fast-moving/speciality shots (such as the footage shot for "Space Seed") are close to the real-time rates, as opposed to the sped-up/slowed-down footage so often used, elsewhere.

Any more info on your add-on, Ross? Or, are there any aftermarket boards out there which provide more accurate rates?

I'll have to re-read Steve's build thread for info on the motors. I see that Tenacontrols is also offering a set of motors. Anyone here try them?


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## Gregatron

Applied Perfect Plastic Putty to the etched markings on the upper rear of the B/C deck structure.

Filled the six misplaced window holes on the lower saucer with Aves. When that cures, I'll apply PPP, then sand flush, then use the Aztec Dummy templates to redrill the holes in the correct positions.

Started test-fitting the window inserts. Not a terrible fit, although there's some warpage. Cutting the inserts into multiple pieces will help with the fit, I think. I'm also wondering if I shouldn't frost the clear inserts from the rear.


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## RossW

Gregatron said:


> Hmmm. I haven't done a lot of research on the blink rates. I get the impression that non-fast-moving/speciality shots (such as the footage shot for "Space Seed") are close to the real-time rates, as opposed to the sped-up/slowed-down footage so often used, elsewhere.
> 
> Any more info on your add-on, Ross? Or, are there any aftermarket boards out there which provide more accurate rates?
> 
> I'll have to re-read Steve's build thread for info on the motors. I see that Tenacontrols is also offering a set of motors. Anyone here try them?


Trek Ace here provided a lot of info, then I went and watched a bunch of episodes and did the timings myself (being careful to exclude shots where they had been sped up or slowed down). Here's what I have:

The TOS E running lights flash at a base timing of 1-1/2 sec (36 frames) on, 1/2 sec (12 frames) off.

Alternate is 1/2 sec on, 1.5 sec off (reverse of above).

In "The Corbomite Maneuver", the lights were on for 18 frames and off for 20

For the 2nd pilot, the lights were on for 1 sec and off for 2/3 sec (Trek Ace)(http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showpost.php?p=4515070&postcount=10)

Last mode is a strobe: 0.02 sec on, 0.5 sec off

>> These modes are available via a momentary button on the board

I was going to sell this board through a friend who was starting up his own model kit business but that hasn't panned out. I've sold 10 or either at WonderFest or through members here.


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## RossW

Gregatron said:


> Filled the six misplaced window holes on the lower saucer with Aves. When that cures, I'll apply PPP, then sand flush, then use the Aztec Dummy templates to redrill the holes in the correct positions.


I used the Aztec Dummy templates to redrill the 3 holes but note that he doesn't replicate the curvature of the saucer - all three holes on his template are in a line, so you'll have to be careful to ensure they end up in an arc.



> Started test-fitting the window inserts. Not a terrible fit, although there's some warpage. Cutting the inserts into multiple pieces will help with the fit, I think. I'm also wondering if I shouldn't frost the clear inserts from the rear.


I did exactly that and it really does help with getting them in flush. I sanded the back of the clear inserts with rough sandpaper to frost them a little bit.


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## Gregatron

RossW said:


> I used the Aztec Dummy templates to redrill the 3 holes but note that he doesn't replicate the curvature of the saucer - all three holes on his template are in a line, so you'll have to be careful to ensure they end up in an arc.



A quick glance at the Orbital Drydock templates (which I also have) shows that they're in an arc, so I guess I'll be using them, instead.


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## Trekkriffic

Gregatron said:


> A quick glance at the Orbital Drydock templates (which I also have) shows that they're in an arc, so I guess I'll be using them, instead.


Awww just eyeball it. That's what I did!


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## RossW

Gregatron said:


> A quick glance at the Orbital Drydock templates (which I also have) shows that they're in an arc, so I guess I'll be using them, instead.


I got the OD stuff AFTER doing this work. Oh, well - mine aren't perfect but they'll do.


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## Gregatron

Some random thoughts:

* Been thinking about those pesky gridlines. Fortunately, I have two spare lower saucers to experiment with. I think it may be possible to flush-fill the lines with a dark putty after the priming/basecoat phase, then mist the basecoat over that. Essentially, it would be preshading with putty.

The etched gridlines are a valuable tool for aligning the markings, after all. Eliminating them in favor of a (likely) imperfect, penciled grid might throw things off. At the very least, drawing those concentric rings onto such a large surface will be tricky. Even moreso if the entire model is assembled at that stage. Hmmm.


* Still debating on whether or not to bother with the interiors. Ideally, I'd like this to serve as a nice, pristine display piece, carefully protected inside a case. Having, say a removable Bridge dome and hangar doors to show off the interiors would make the model more toylike, and would also be impractical, since the case would have to be removed whenever I'd want to show off those features. Additionally, the interior Bridge set had an opaque ceiling, so I'd tend to stick to the fictional reality of the design (the "Cage" zoom-in notwithstanding).


Been browsing around for a potential source for a display case. The base would need to accommodate the electronics and such. As long as Laserfire Creations is still in the game, I need to start thinking about what I want to do in terms of a plaque. Also looking for a nice speaker setup for the music/sounds. 

As noted, planning out the electronics will be the hardest part of this.


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## Disillusionist

Laserfire is always in the game, and ready when you are!


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## RossW

Gregatron said:


> The etched gridlines are a valuable tool for aligning the markings, after all. Eliminating them in favor of a (likely) imperfect, penciled grid might throw things off. At the very least, drawing those concentric rings onto such a large surface will be tricky. Even moreso if the entire model is assembled at that stage. Hmmm.


On one build-up video on YT I saw the modeller leave off the B/C deck piece until after drawing on the gridlines. This lets you lay a flexible straightedge across the whole saucer top to do the radial lines. Then, install the B/C deck but use a spare bridge top and draw the concentric lines.

Haven't done mine yet, so UAYOR.


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## Fozzie

You might want to consider this for the sound effects you mentioned. Brand new from Adafruit and it looks PERFECT for embedding in a model. Can't wait to get one to play with.

https://www.adafruit.com/products/2133


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## Gregatron

Thanks, Fozzie. That's just the sort of thing I'm talking about.



Anyway, upon examination, I see that some of the portholes on the model are a bit malformed. I'll have to reshape them with either Aves/PPP and a tiny drill bit. Some of the rectangular windows could also use a bit of filing.


Also, I gave the B/C deck square etchings a second coat of PPP and a thorough sanding. It now passes my "eyes closed, with fingers feeling for seams/etched lines" test, so they should disappear under a coat or two of primer.


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## Gregatron

RossW said:


> On one build-up video on YT I saw the modeller leave off the B/C deck piece until after drawing on the gridlines. This lets you lay a flexible straightedge across the whole saucer top to do the radial lines. Then, install the B/C deck but use a spare bridge top and draw the concentric lines.
> 
> Haven't done mine yet, so UAYOR.



My preferred style is to assemble a whole model, fill all seams, then prime and paint. I'm a bit leery of the prepainting subassemblies method. But, for this project, I'm keeping my options open.


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## RossW

Gregatron said:


> My preferred style is to assemble a whole model, fill all seams, then prime and paint. I'm a bit leery of the prepainting subassemblies method. But, for this project, I'm keeping my options open.


Same here, but I filled in all my grid lines and primered over them so I don't think I have a choice. Plus, the fit is so good with the B/C deck that some modellers are leaving it unglued so they can get to the PL kit's PCB (mine is a custom PCB and will be in the base).


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## Lou Dalmaso

Gregatron said:


> A quick glance at the Orbital Drydock templates (which I also have) shows that they're in an arc, so I guess I'll be using them, instead.


the new hole template was traced off of the window insert piece

if you create an artificial arc to those three windows, the insert will not line up without cutting it into pieces


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## orbital drydock

Lou Dalmaso said:


> the new hole template was traced off of the window insert piece
> 
> if you create an artificial arc to those three windows, the insert will not line up without cutting it into pieces


Well... I'm going to have to say different.

There is a very slight curve in the arrangement of the 3 windows. Put a caliper across all 3 window extrusions & there will be a reading of .138"-.140", measure 1 window diameter & there will be a reading of .128-.130. That means the middle window is .008"-.010" offset from the 2 outside windows. If the window piece is looked at while it's still in the calipers, there will be a small space under the center window visually indicating an offset. It may not seem like much, but .010" off is enough to make a piece not fit right

All of the drastic curve on the border of the 3 hole mask in my set, is for aligning the mask with the grid lines. There is only a slight curve in the extrusion layout of the insert, but it is there.


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## Gregatron

Well, I used Brett's masks, and, aside from one hole that became slightly misaligned (due to the bit slipping out of the pilot hole and cracking the Aves on the forward most filled hole), the results are great. Minimal putty and sanding should be needed. The inserts fit well.

Now, if you guys would like me to continue this little Pepsi Challenge, I can use Lou's masks on one of my spare lower saucers, and see how that turns out.


Either way both masking sets are great!


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## SteveR

Gregatron said:


> * Still debating on whether or not to bother with the interiors.


Yeah ... I was thinking that if I left out the shuttle bay, I could incorporate it into a tiny shadowbox. But it would look aft, out into space, not forward into the bay. That way, it could reproduce the angle seen in the show.

Thanks for keeping us up-to-date on your thought process! :thumbsup:


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## WOI

When are you going to post pics on the progress of your work on it?


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## Gregatron

WOI said:


> When are you going to post pics on the progress of your work on it?


Sure! There just hasn't been much progress, yet. Haven't had a chance to take any photos of the repositioned saucer holes. Not Earth-shattering stuff, anyway.


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## Tim Nolan

If your worried about board failure, the front mounting in the hull makes thse easily accessable. I mounted super magnets in the dish and the hull to hold it in place and make it easily removable. The boards slide right out.


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## Gregatron

Tim Nolan said:


> If your worried about board failure, the front mounting in the hull makes thse easily accessable. I mounted super magnets in the dish and the hull to hold it in place and make it easily removable. The boards slide right out.


That's a good idea! Although...one of the boards is intended to be mounted in the saucer. Would it also fit in the secondary hull? Would both boards fit in there, without interfering with the lighting (or each other)?


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## Gregatron

I find myself thinking that I should just go for building the Bridge and hangar deck, using Trekriffic's brilliant methods to make the dome and doors removable.

If I'm really doing this, I should go for the full experience, right?


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## MartyS

Gregatron said:


> I find myself thinking that I should just go for building the Bridge and hangar deck, using Trekriffic's brilliant methods to make the dome and doors removable.
> 
> If I'm really doing this, I should go for the full experience, right?


They are frustrating parts to do, but add a lot to the finished model, so yeah, go for the full experience. 

For me painting the bridge was a nightmare, eventually had to just say "good enough". But lighting the bridge was easy.

The shuttle bay is the opposite, I had no problem painting it but the lighting was a pain. I tried a lot of different combinations of LEDs and ended up with this custom setup that does require some micro-soldering skills, but it does light up the top of the bay nicely:









I cut the solid doors for the bay because I liked the top of that part better for light blocking and I liked the way the thicker part looked when open:


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## Gregatron

Started familiarizing myself with the lighting kit. Put the nacelle dome motor/light assemblies together. The motors aren't excessively loud, but there's gotta be a good way to quiet them. I'm letting them run for awhile, to see if they'll have any issues.

I'm still debating replacing the motors. We'll see.


I'm also wondering about the accuracy of the rotation speed. I know that some builders have added speed control setups to their electronics. At the very least, I think I'll want a separate switch for the motors, so I can the model's lights without also constantly running the motors. The LEDs should have a long life, but the motors are the thing I'm concerned about.

All in all the lighting kits isn't as complex as I'd feared. However, due to my inexperience, I need to take it slow.


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## Trekkriffic

I would definitely rig up a separate circuit for the motors.


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## JGG1701

Trekkriffic said:


> I would definitely rig up a separate circuit for the motors.


Steve,
It would be great if you show us how (in simple terms of course).
-Jim


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## Trekkriffic

JGG1701 said:


> Steve,
> It would be great if you show us how (in simple terms of course).
> -Jim


You can do it a couple of ways. If you are using the kit base you would need to install a separate switch either in the base or in the model. Either way, you would just need to split one of the wires (either positive or negative) from the power jack (the female coupler that the power supply male cord plugs into) into two leads and run one wire up into the ship to the main PC board in the secondary hull for the lights. The second wire would run to the switch either in the base or the model. From the switch the wire would be split again to power each motor with with one wire running up into the starboard nacelle and one running up the port nacelle.
If you want to be able to switch the lights off and on you could install a second switch so instead of running the second wire from the DC jack (the one that was either positive or negative that you spit into two leads) harness up into the ship directly you would wire it to the switch first. You would only need to do this with one lead (either positive or negative), the other wire from the power coupler would be commmon to all the circuits so no need to isolate it. For the motors then you have a wire connectd thru the switch for one terminal (+ or -) and the other terminal connected to the comon wire that feeds the bussard. Or you could split the second wire from the DC power jack harness in the base (the one that's common to all the circuits not the one running to the motor switch) and run two wires from there up into the ship with one connecting to the PC board and the other being split into two leads to feed each nacelle. So you'd have two + and 2 - wires running up each nacelle strut. That might be the best solution. Just make sure to reverse the + and - wires to the motor on the port nacelle so it spins counterclockwise from the clockwise spinning motor on the starboard side. As always test out all your connections before gluing the hull together.
For my build, I wanted the model to be removeable from the stand so I didn't use the kit stand. I installed a 4 pin mini-DIN plug (got it at Fry's Electrionics) in a metal tube from the 1/350 Enterprise Refit base (that I repurposed for the TOS Enterprise) and installed a mating 4 pin jack in the underside of the front of the secondary hull where the kit tube would have mounted. The mini-din plug and jack had internal solder cups for soldering the wires to. Then I wired two switches in my base and split the negative wire from a size M panel jack (got it at Radio Shack) that the wall adaper plugged into, into two wires and ran one lead to each switch. Then I ran the negative wire from each switch up the mounting tube and soldered them to two of the mini-din pins. The positive wire from the M panel jack in the base was likewise split into two leads. These two wires went up the mounting tube (not to the switches) and were soldered to the other 2 pins in the backside of the mini-din. The mini-din jack in the ship then had two positive and two negative wires soldered to the 4 sodler cups-one set to connect to the harness that powers the PC board (for the lights); the other set of positive and negative wires got split in two again with one set running up each nacelle to the motors reversing the polarity on the wires connected to the motor in the port nacelle from that of the wires running up the motor in the starboard nacelle so they spun opposite from each other.


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## jgoldsack

Gregatron said:


> Started familiarizing myself with the lighting kit. Put the nacelle dome motor/light assemblies together. The motors aren't excessively loud, but there's gotta be a good way to quiet them. I'm letting them run for awhile, to see if they'll have any issues.



Keep in mind that the motors running outside the model will be quieter than inside. Those nacelles are big long sound amplifiers....


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## Trekkriffic

jgoldsack said:


> Keep in mind that the motors running outside the model will be quieter than inside. Those nacelles are big long sound amplifiers....


One of the reasons I filled the nacelle tubes with foam pipe insulating tubing for my build.


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## MartyS

I posted a wiring diagram in my build thread for putting a switch just for the motors, here's the post:

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showpost.php?p=4753387&postcount=80

Where I put the switch:

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showpost.php?p=4751385&postcount=70

I made a tractor beam part that pushes in on a rod to switch the switch:

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showpost.php?p=4755318&postcount=99

And my solution to the motor vibration/noise issues:

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showpost.php?p=4758990&postcount=121


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## Trekkriffic

MartyS said:


> I posted a wiring diagram in my build thread for putting a switch just for the motors, here's the post:
> 
> http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showpost.php?p=4753387&postcount=80
> 
> Where I put the switch:
> 
> http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showpost.php?p=4751385&postcount=70
> 
> I made a tractor beam part that pushes in on a rod to switch the switch:
> 
> http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showpost.php?p=4755318&postcount=99
> 
> And my solution to the motor vibration/noise issues:
> 
> http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showpost.php?p=4758990&postcount=121


An elegant solution for the switch. You can find inexpensive pushbutton switches for this type of arrangement inside those LED push-on lights they sell at the Dollar Store. I used them for my latest Kingon BOP build.


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## JHauser

Gregatron said:


> It begins.
> 
> 
> On a whim, tonight, I broke out my 1/350 TOS _Enterprise_ kit, and
> began washing the parts to clean off mold release.
> 
> Now, I still have a lot of other projects in the pipe, but, I felt that it's time to start on this. I'd like it to be completed by Sept. 8, 2016. And, with the elaborate plans I have, it's gonna take time. Need to start working on ideas for the display base/case, and planning out the electronics.
> 
> 
> First things first. Will I show off the interiors (Bridge, hangar deck), or
> stick with a purely exterior model? Replace the Round 2 kit's nacelle
> motors? Gotta start making some decisions.
> 
> The base and electronics are the hard part, here. For starters, I'm not the most electronics-savvy.
> 
> I'm armed with a 3-ring binder full of tips, tricks, and reference materials, the weathering decals (though I'll likely use pastel chalks), the R2 and Paragrafix photoetch, and the R2 light kit. Been preparing for this for years, really.
> 
> 
> My goals:
> 
> * Extreme attention to accuracy in detailing and weathering patterns. Possibly penciled gridlines, unless I can devise a way to fill/preshade the engraved grids so as to provide a very subtle look.
> 
> * Quieting/replacing the fan motors, and accurately replicating the lighting effects.
> 
> * A nice display base/case, with a backlit STAR TREK logo, and separate control buttons for the lights and engine motors (so that the lights can be run without the engine fans running all the time).
> 
> * Installing a speaker and USB sound module into the base, so as to play sound effects and/or "_Enterprise_ flyby" music cues taken from La-La-Land's complete TOS soundtrack collection.
> 
> * Moving the pcbs into the base, in case they fail. I'm leery about installing them into the model itself. I should be able to use a pin connector to attach the model to the base, right? Any suggestions for a good one?
> 
> 
> So...first things first. Any thoughts from the experts on the electronics feasibility of what I plan? I haven't tested the Round 2 electronics, yet. Are the flasher blink rates reasonably accurate? Would separating the motor function from the lights with its own switch be a problem?
> 
> Any suggestions for alternate/aftermarket electronics, or a display case big enough to fit this girl?
> 
> I'm gonna need help figuring out the electronics portion of this project, guys!
> 
> 
> Slow and steady wins the race. I'm not jumping head-first into this (yet), but it's time to start working on it. (*deep breath*)


Hello, 

If you haven't had a chance to read through this thread : http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=378454, there's a lot of good advice on most of your questions.

Here are some of the ways I addressed some similar issue:

Motor noise:

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=378454&page=86 post #1281

Motor serviceability: 

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=378454&page=102 post #1526

On/off, Motor speed, turning on bussard lights with out motors running:

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?p=4480285 post #1278

and

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=378454&page=99 post #1478

Flashing rate:

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?p=4743617 post #1798 

Bussard lights;

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=378454&page=95 post #1425 and 1426

Here's a photo of the finished "fan" that I will be using with the bussard.

Hope this helps or at least give you some alternatives to think about.


----------



## Gregatron

This is all very useful info, gents. Much appreciated.

I've been reading about and researching these issues since the model was released, but it's different once you start actually working on the thing.


Anyway, I've been thinking about ideas for the base. I'm thinking about building a simple little control panel, with buttons labeled in a TOS set-accurate font. "Warp Engines" for the motor activation switch, "Warp Factor 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8" if I end up installing a rotary knob for controlling the motor speed, etc.


----------



## RossW

I'm using a programmable microcontroller and PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) to speed up/slow down the motors with a quad encoder knob:

http://youtu.be/07HdvMuHxKI?list=UUI2sKEjlHafqmcpsZ0rxbmA


----------



## Gregatron

Some quick 'n dirty photos...



Hole fix (with smoked insert in the new holes):











Engine lighting/motor test:


----------



## Gregatron

In regards to what people have done with the hangar deck, it seems that the fit is very tight, and the area difficult to light.

Now, am I missing something, here, or would it not be feasible to simply thin down the outer sides of the bay (which butt up against the inner sides of the secondary hull? 

I also see that the outer hangar walls are ribbed/grooved, for some reason. What's up with that?


----------



## Trekkriffic

Gregatron said:


> In regards to what people have done with the hangar deck, it seems that the fit is very tight, and the area difficult to light.
> 
> Now, am I missing something, here, or would it not be feasible to simply thin down the outer sides of the bay (which butt up against the inner sides of the secondary hull?
> 
> I also see that the outer hangar walls are ribbed/grooved, for some reason. What's up with that?


Those ribs I think may have something to do with helping to transmit and disperse light from the LEDs that fit in those ears at the back wall of the launch bay. Not sure how that works but that's my best guess. 

As far as thinning the walls of the bay, on my build, I ended up shaving most of the ears off the rear wall and filing down the sides of the LEDS where they butt up against the inner surface of the hull. I did that in tandem with removing about 1/16" thickness from the secondary hull in a strip about 1/2" wide in front of where the nacelle pylons mount. I used a grinder in my dremel and a seam scraper tool. I also removed some thickness from the spine of the hull over the bay. For LEDs above the bay I used surface mount LEDs glued into the recessed trench that runs along the top of the bay. They are thin enough to work with the limited clearances you have to deal with. I even removed the backing from the window inserts that fit into the hull along the sides of the bay so they were flush to the inner hull. 

Any removal of previously light blocked plastic from the inner hull surface will necessitate re-application of black, silver, and or white paint for light blocking purposes of course. Even then, I had to light block from the outside too to kill light bleed after my mods were done and the hull was glued together. 

You mention removing plastic from the launch bay walls themselves, that might work too, but I'd be careful; the clear plastic is brittle and will easily crack on you. 

Here are some links to my Flickr! album that may illustrate what I did:

https://flic.kr/p/eFpVCZ
https://flic.kr/p/eFpVB6
https://flic.kr/p/eFpVyR
https://flic.kr/p/eFpVuB
https://flic.kr/p/eFw3Fj
https://flic.kr/p/eFKsxw
https://flic.kr/p/eFDm9t
https://flic.kr/p/eFKsyy
https://flic.kr/p/eFDm5g
https://flic.kr/p/eFKsrs
https://flic.kr/p/eFKsqj


Shadow Casters:
https://flic.kr/p/eFw3Rf


Here's that light bleed I mentioned. This is why I had to spray the outside of the hull with black laquer followed by a nice thick coat of primer to kill the bleed:

https://flic.kr/p/eFKsnj
https://flic.kr/p/eJ7gxv

And don't forget to light block the underside of the floor too:

https://flic.kr/p/eJ7gtp

The completed bay prior to installing the control booth at the front of the bay over the doors. You can see the blurred glow of the LED that lights the booth and the beacon at the stern of the secondary hull:

https://flic.kr/p/eLsH6G

The finished product:

https://flic.kr/p/fPFKHq
https://flic.kr/p/fPpcGn

I hope you don't mind the length of this post. I really don't mean to take over your thread!


----------



## MartyS

I got the bay to fit without needing to do anything to the hull walls.

If you look at the picture I posted a while back of my lighting setup, I sanded those tabs that hold the outer 4 round LEDs way down, and also used a drill bit that is the size of the LED to shave down the bay so there were little round groves in the middle of the tabs. I did the stuff with the drill bit by hand, running it back and forth like a file to avoid cracking the clear plastic. Then the LEDs were glued in and sanded down to be flush with the ends of what was left of the tabs. 

The top of the bay needs to be flush since it butts very close to the hull, the stock wiring isn't great for that so I sanded down the top grove for the wire, and avoided the problem of the stock LEDs on the side groves being to big by doing my own LEDs there.

Another thing to think about is the clear plastic parts that go into the top of the hull above the bay. I didn't do that according to the instructions, left those parts off until close to the end of building. So I could fill the seams around them and paint without messing up the clear parts. And to leave extra room for the top of the bay. I then cut the clear parts so all that was left were 3 cylinders, and glued them carefully into the holes after painting.


----------



## Trekkriffic

Just goes to show there's more than one way to skin a cat!


----------



## Gregatron

Thanks, guys!


Anyway, I went out and bought some foam rubber piping to start experimenting with nacelle motor noise reduction.

I'm wondering if I couldn't rig up a "sandwich" setup--silicone tubing lining the inner nacelles, then foam tubing inside that, then smaller diameter silicone tubing surrounding the motor assemblies. Hmm.


----------



## JHauser

Gregatron said:


> Thanks, guys!
> 
> 
> Anyway, I went out and bought some foam rubber piping to start experimenting with nacelle motor noise reduction.
> 
> I'm wondering if I couldn't rig up a "sandwich" setup--silicone tubing lining the inner nacelles, then foam tubing inside that, then smaller diameter silicone tubing surrounding the motor assemblies. Hmm.


There are several types of foam pipe insulation, some are more suitable for vibration dampening than others. They were really designed for their insulation values. 

I used an anti-vibration foam like this :

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__26456__Anti_Vibration_Foam_White_Latex_Foam_.html

Decoupling the motor and using this foam it to absorb the motor vibrations has reduced the noise to minimum.


----------



## Gregatron

Wow! That advice really worked.

Decoupling the motor from the housing makes a huge difference. I rigged up a quick test by mounting one of the motors inside some of the foam pipe, then extended the shaft with some bits of brass tube that I hastily taped together.

It's crude, but, even so, the sound is significantly lessened--probably 1/3 to 1/4 of what is was, originally.


This is a step in the right direction. Thanks!


----------



## Gregatron

A video test--


First, the port nacelle, stock:


http://vid57.photobucket.com/albums/g212/GregKirkman/054F19CE-AC37-440A-9D62-37522552523A_zpslsal2nlz.mp4


Then, the starboard nacelle, with foam inserts, decoupled motor, and improvised brass rod assembly to bridge the gap between the motor axle and the spinner:



http://vid57.photobucket.com/albums/g212/GregKirkman/34094DB9-5687-4D84-B557-9CD8979DA76F_zpsbjtklpgp.mp4

(There's a bit of plastic scraping that's occurring in the second video, as a result of the fact that it's a crude improvisation.)


----------



## RossW

Impressive!

I'm going to try small stepper motors to see if the noise can be reduced further, but if not this looks to be definitely the way to go.


----------



## MartyS

Gregatron said:


> Wow! That advice really worked.
> 
> Decoupling the motor from the housing makes a huge difference.



Yes, any way you can prevent the vibrations from reaching the model is key. You'll find once the model is all together the entire thing acts like a sounding board, so any acoustic frequencies need to be dampened.

What I found was it didn't matter all that much if you filled the nacelles or surrounded the motor with foam, what really matters is dampening any physical contact between the motors and the model. Makes sense, sound waves coming off the motor are not strong enough to pass through the plastic, vibrations from physical contact to the hull are the problem. So foam or rubber tubing, anything that can hold the motor in place yet not transfer vibration is one solution. Using a different motor that has less vibration is the other.


----------



## Gregatron

JHauser said:


> Hello,
> 
> If you haven't had a chance to read through this thread : http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=378454, there's a lot of good advice on most of your questions.
> 
> Here are some of the ways I addressed some similar issue:
> 
> Motor noise:
> 
> http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=378454&page=86 post #1281
> 
> Motor serviceability:
> 
> http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=378454&page=102 post #1526
> 
> On/off, Motor speed, turning on bussard lights with out motors running:
> 
> http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?p=4480285 post #1278
> 
> and
> 
> http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=378454&page=99 post #1478
> 
> Flashing rate:
> 
> http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?p=4743617 post #1798
> 
> Bussard lights;
> 
> http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=378454&page=95 post #1425 and 1426
> 
> Here's a photo of the finished "fan" that I will be using with the bussard.
> 
> Hope this helps or at least give you some alternatives to think about.




Could you tell me a bit more about your use of diodes to connect the motors to the existing system? I've worked with resistors in the past, but not diodes. What type did you use? I'm considering switching out the motors with the ones you did. Thanks!


----------



## JHauser

Gregatron said:


> Could you tell me a bit more about your use of diodes to connect the motors to the existing system? I've worked with resistors in the past, but not diodes. What type did you use? I'm considering switching out the motors with the ones you did. Thanks!


As far as using a diode or not on the motor, from what I understand, it's necessary to reroute inductive motor spikes (kick-back/fly-back spikes) when using PWM.

See post # 1524:

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?p=4573231&highlight=diode 

The motor can be had here:

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16300

The bearings that I used were salvaged from some old hard drives, but this is very close to what I used: 

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16273

It's slightly under-sized in diameter (same as what I had), you will need to "shim" it for a tighter fit. I used self adhesive aluminum tape (HVAC). One wrap did it.


----------



## Gregatron

JHauser said:


> As far as using a diode or not on the motor, from what I understand, it's necessary to reroute inductive motor spikes (kick-back/fly-back spikes) when using PWM.
> 
> See post # 1524:
> 
> http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?p=4573231&highlight=diode
> 
> The motor can be had here:
> 
> http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16300
> 
> The bearings that I used were salvaged from some old hard drives, but this is very close to what I used:
> 
> http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16273
> 
> It's slightly under-sized in diameter (same as what I had), you will need to "shim" it for a tighter fit. I used self adhesive aluminum tape (HVAC). One wrap did it.





Thanks! I think I'll be ordering these parts, so I can begin experimenting.

Also, what's a good source for the diodes and pin connector terminals?


----------



## JHauser

Gregatron said:


> Thanks! I think I'll be ordering these parts, so I can begin experimenting.
> 
> Also, what's a good source for the diodes and pin connector terminals?


The diodes you can order from the same company as the motors and bearings:

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=A20434

These are the connectors I used, they match what's the circuit board:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JST-2-0-PH-...Control_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c417ca90c


----------



## Gregatron

Thanks!

Okay, all of those parts are on their way. This seems like a perfect setup, right down to the ability to screw-mount the bearings to the nacelle housings.


While I'm waiting for everything to arrive, I'll have to focus on other projects, like the saucer and hangar lighting.


----------



## RossW

Before I forget:


Skip the LED light strip connectors and solder directly to the two solder circles.
If you need to use your own wire I highly recommend magnet wire (Boyd's YouTube videos turned me on to these). You can get a 3-pack from Radio Shack or buy the rolls individually on eBay. The big advantage to this type of wire is you don't have to strip it - you just heat the end with your soldering iron and the insulation melts off. Plus, they're thinner than normal twisted wire of similar gauge.

Gregatron PM'd me about my blinky board (http://youtu.be/2ndWyKt7BOs?list=UUI2sKEjlHafqmcpsZ0rxbmA) to replace both the primary hull running lights and the secondary hull strobes (hence 2 boards needed). His concern is fitting 4 boards into the secondary hull (both PL's and my 2) and I was thinking that if you're not using PL's blinky feature then you don't even need the boards if you connect everything up yourself. More work, of course, since the PL boards make it very simple to plug all the different labeled wires in, but then you'd only have to fit 2 boards (my PCBs are actually smaller than PL's).

Thoughts?


----------



## Gregatron

RossW said:


> Before I forget:
> 
> 
> Skip the LED light strip connectors and solder directly to the two solder circles.
> If you need to use your own wire I highly recommend magnet wire (Boyd's YouTube videos turned me on to these). You can get a 3-pack from Radio Shack or buy the rolls individually on eBay. The big advantage to this type of wire is you don't have to strip it - you just heat the end with your soldering iron and the insulation melts off. Plus, they're thinner than normal twisted wire of similar gauge.
> 
> Gregatron PM'd me about my blinky board (http://youtu.be/2ndWyKt7BOs?list=UUI2sKEjlHafqmcpsZ0rxbmA) to replace both the primary hull running lights and the secondary hull strobes (hence 2 boards needed). His concern is fitting 4 boards into the secondary hull (both PL's and my 2) and I was thinking that if you're not using PL's blinky feature then you don't even need the boards if you connect everything up yourself. More work, of course, since the PL boards make it very simple to plug all the different labeled wires in, but then you'd only have to fit 2 boards (my PCBs are actually smaller than PL's).
> 
> Thoughts?



I'm already planning on soldering all the wires, and have used magnet wire before.. No worries, there.


As for your boards, would mods be needed to hook up all the steady-on lights?


----------



## JHauser

RossW said:


> Before I forget:
> 
> 
> Skip the LED light strip connectors and solder directly to the two solder circles.
> If you need to use your own wire I highly recommend magnet wire (Boyd's YouTube videos turned me on to these). You can get a 3-pack from Radio Shack or buy the rolls individually on eBay. The big advantage to this type of wire is you don't have to strip it - you just heat the end with your soldering iron and the insulation melts off. Plus, they're thinner than normal twisted wire of similar gauge.
> 
> Gregatron PM'd me about my blinky board (http://youtu.be/2ndWyKt7BOs?list=UUI2sKEjlHafqmcpsZ0rxbmA) to replace both the primary hull running lights and the secondary hull strobes (hence 2 boards needed). His concern is fitting 4 boards into the secondary hull (both PL's and my 2) and I was thinking that if you're not using PL's blinky feature then you don't even need the boards if you connect everything up yourself. More work, of course, since the PL boards make it very simple to plug all the different labeled wires in, but then you'd only have to fit 2 boards (my PCBs are actually smaller than PL's).
> 
> Thoughts?


I knew about the secondary hull strobes issue. Were there also a problem with the primary hull running lights timing with the PL kit?


----------



## RossW

JHauser: I spent a lot of time reviewing clips from the show and found the most common screen blink rate is 1.5 sec on, 0.5 sec off. The PL kit is 1 sec on/off, I believe. There were some other blink rates noted so I built in button to select the different modes:


The TOS E running lights flash at a base timing of 1-1/2 sec (36 frames) on, 1/2 sec (12 frames) off.
Alternate is 1/2 sec on, 1.5 sec off (reverse of above).
In "The Corbomite Maneuver", the lights were on for 18 frames and off for 20
For the 2nd pilot, the lights were on for 1 sec and off for 2/3 sec (Trek Ace (http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showpost.php?p=4515070&postcount=10)
Gregatron: the LED strips to light the windows run off of the 12V supply directly, so you'd just need to wire those up to the incoming J wire.


----------



## Gregatron

RossW said:


> Gregatron: the LED strips to light the windows run off of the 12V supply directly, so you'd just need to wire those up to the incoming J wire.


Wire up how? Literally splicing and soldering everything together, or installing connectors to the board?


----------



## RossW

Splice J to G & H wire to power the the lights in the neck and saucer. For the saucer, you would remove the connector and splice to all the LED strips in parallel.

Please bear in mind I'm not advocating this approach, just giving you options if you want to use my boards and not stuff 4 into the secondary hull (although I think they'd all fit since my board is smaller than theirs).


----------



## Gregatron

Either way, I'd still like to commission the boards. Once I have 'em in hand, I'll figger out what I want to do.


----------



## RossW

I've been charging $25 for a board but if you want 2 maybe we can do a deal. PM me if you're interested.


----------



## jgoldsack

Man all this makes my head hurt. Here I was thinking I'd be good if I could just separate the nacelle motors to run separately...lol


----------



## Gregatron

Started doing research on the colors and placement of the nacelle dome bulbs.


There are conflicting reports--the five big amber bulbs are pretty easy to spot, but some sources say that the other colored bulbs should also be C7-types, whereas the R2 kit depicts them as being much smaller. Hmmm.

Also need to get a cheap mirror to create the small shards.


----------



## RossW

I (and others) tried the mirror shards approach (you can buy small ones from Michaels - I put them in a paper towel and smashed them with a hammer to make the shards) but it doesn't make any difference. The incandescent C7 bulbs radiate in almost all directions, whereas LEDs are very directional (even if you sand them or frost them). Not enough rays are pointed down or behind the diode to reflect off the mirror shards. Or, it might be that this scale is too small. In the end, I wrapped prismatic mylar around the plastic disc (even the middle cone for the post to rotate the inner dome) but I can't say it really has an effect.

BTW, have you seen this site? Click through on the 11' miniature to see some interesting details.


----------



## Gregatron

RossW said:


> I (and others) tried the mirror shards approach (you can buy small ones from Michaels - I put them in a paper towel and smashed them with a hammer to make the shards) but it doesn't make any difference. The incandescent C7 bulbs radiate in almost all directions, whereas LEDs are very directional (even if you sand them or frost them). Not enough rays are pointed down or behind the diode to reflect off the mirror shards. Or, it might be that this scale is too small. In the end, I wrapped prismatic mylar around the plastic disc (even the middle cone for the post to rotate the inner dome) but I can't say it really has an effect.
> 
> BTW, have you seen this site? Click through on the 11' miniature to see some interesting details.



Yes, I'm definitely familiar with that site!



Anyhoo, I'm currently light-blocking the dorsal.

Also test-fitting the hangar parts, and am thinning out the hangar walls and the interiors of the secondary hull halves for better fit and light transmission.


----------



## JHauser

Gregatron said:


> Started doing research on the colors and placement of the nacelle dome bulbs.
> 
> 
> There are conflicting reports--the five big amber bulbs are pretty easy to spot, but some sources say that the other colored bulbs should also be C7-types, whereas the R2 kit depicts them as being much smaller. Hmmm.
> 
> Also need to get a cheap mirror to create the small shards.



Using the smaller "bulbs" didn't look right to me either. I drilled out the holes where the smaller ones went and used the clear large "bulbs" and painted them with Tamiya's translucent paints in red, blue and green. The large colored ones didn't seem to pass enough light. The orange/amber colored large ones I drilled out and inserted the small clear ones in them. it gives me the whiter hot spots that are visible at times. This was the best that I could come up with trying many combinations.

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/attachment.php?attachmentid=173643&d=1366816094

Here's a short video I took (the model is just in primer). I'm starting with the lights on, then using the RF remote, I start the motor at the 1st speed (14 rpm), 2nd (39 rpm), 3rd (54 rpm) and 4th (63 rpm) and then back down again. You only start to hear the motors at 54 rpm and a little more at 63 rpm. I like the look at 39 rpm the best and they're barely audible at that speed 


http://s598.photobucket.com/user/JDH_05/media/BussardTest.mp4.html

This one shows the colors more true to like. Photobucket's playback is not as nice as the original as far as smoothness though. 

http://s598.photobucket.com/user/JDH_05/media/BussardTest2.mp4.html


Also, I agree with RossW, I tried the mirrors too. I ended up just painting the base silver.


----------



## d_jedi1

That looks amazing. Having used the colored "bulbs" (I did them all as the tear-drop ones too), I can say that aside from the amber ones, the others DO NOT transmit light well.


----------



## Gregatron

As always, thanks for the info, guys. I'll have to conduct some tests.

So, you replaced the stick fan blades with tapered ones, JHauser? I believe there's been some debate regarding the blades. My gut tells me that the kit is right, and that parallel/non-tapered blades are accurate, but I'm curious as to what everyone else thinks.



I've received the new motors, bearings, ball links, and diodes. Should be ready for some tests with the new setup, soon. Depends on how long it takes the wire connectors to arrive.

How did you attach the diodes to the motors' terminals, JHauser? Soldering?


----------



## J_Indy

In that url starttrekhistory that JHauser posted (nice engine effect, BTW ) there is a black and white head-on shot of the E next to the Botany Bay sitting in the film studio and the blades are definitely tapered. 

(Also the starboard dome looks out-of-round, but it wasn't filmed at that angle anyway...)


----------



## Gregatron

J_Indy said:


> In that url starttrekhistory that JHauser posted (nice engine effect, BTW ) there is a black and white head-on shot of the E next to the Botany Bay sitting in the film studio and the blades are definitely tapered.



I'm still not so sure. In many shots, it almost looks as if the fronts of the blades (where they almost converge in the center of the domes) are being backlit more directly by the bulbs, while the outer edges of the blades are having larger shadows cast by non-direct light.


In other words, an optical illusion. You can see a similar effect in HDA's video, here, in which he uses a stock R2 dome--

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3aTdTbgX1gM


----------



## JHauser

It may well indeed be an optical illusion, but because of the difference in scale (11' to 3' model) we may not be able to reproduce it. I believe scale differences would also change how a color (darker/lighter) may look. I will probably lighten the JN Grey quite a bit when I get around to painting the hull.

I've tried both tapered and un-tapered. The tapered gave me the effect I was looking for more than the un-tapered. 

Yes, I soldered the diodes directly on the motor terminals along with the 2 pin connectors.


----------



## J_Indy

This grainy enlarged pic is the best I can find of the blades. To my eye they look tapered, as the edges in front of the bright spot are not the same at both ends and there is not enough distance between the two endpoints at each side of the bright spot to account for the difference.


http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=bgy41x&s=8


----------



## Trekkriffic

J_Indy said:


> This grainy enlarged pic is the best I can find of the blades. To my eye they look tapered, as the edges in front of the bright spot are not the same at both ends and there is not enough distance between the two endpoints at each side of the bright spot to account for the difference.
> 
> 
> http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=bgy41x&s=8


I've heard though that the reason the blades look wider at the base and tapered towards the center when the blades are spinning may have more to do with motion blur. Similar to the blurred ends of a spinning propeller blade. It's an optical illusion that makes the blades look wider at the outer end of the blades.


----------



## J_Indy

Trekkriffic said:


> I've heard though that the reason the blades look wider at the base and tapered towards the center when the blades are spinning may have more to do with motion blur. Similar to the blurred ends of a spinning propeller blade. It's an optical illusion that makes the blades look wider at the outer end of the blades.


Maybe....

However, some propeller's blades ARE narrower toward the center, so that may not actually be an optical illusion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propeller

Also - I think it was guesstimated they rotated about 60rpm, so it wasn't very fast.

BTW - this is all just opinion, of course.... 

This guy's posts on the TOS 1/350 are interesting (though just opinions also).

http://the-grey-ghost.com/round-2-1350-enterprise-or-why-did-they-do-that/

His stuff on building a really big TOS E are a fun read too.


----------



## JHauser

I've collected several photos off the web for study and to me the lines do look straight (at least they don't come to a point) in these shots. I do believe though that they look tapered as there're caught on film in motion (blur effect).

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt66/JDH_05/APL350TOS-260.png

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt66/JDH_05/f_00001d.jpg

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt66/JDH_05/letthatbeyourlastbattlefieldhd0564.jpg

While the PL kit may be correct based on the original 11' model, I think that it doesn't do very well on a smaller scale while looking at it in real time (not being played back on film). That's why I tapered mine.


----------



## SteveR

I did a little 3D simulation of some rotating Bussard blades here:

No motion blur:


Motion blur:


If I were to build mine without a motor, I'd taper the blades to create the illusion.


----------



## J_Indy

SteveR said:


> I did a little 3D simulation of some rotating Bussard blades here:
> 
> No motion blur:
> 
> 
> Motion blur:
> 
> 
> If I were to build mine without a motor, I'd taper the blades to create the illusion.


A definite 'maybe'.... 

I don't think there is a dispute on motion-blur - it just doesn't preclude a tapered blade since they are not mutually exclusive.

The relatively small angle of incidence for any taper in the blades makes it hard to determine, so I guess this is one of those personal "Call 'em as you see 'em" things.


http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2u7mxc2&s=8


----------



## J_Indy

I had a chance to tag on some questions to the end of an e-mail to Steve Neill, so I asked

1) How would he handle the grid lines - putty?
2) Were the fan blades straight (this would be his opinion), and did he know of any definitive pictures.

Answers:
No I would use high rise primer and spray a bunch of coats on and sand it down over and over until they are gone. Trust me this works better.

As for 2, no they should taper. My 6 footer does but then again I built that from scratch.
No pictures that I know of but if you look at the show you can tell I think.


Anyway, this is just another opinion. What matters when you do yours is what You think.


----------



## SteveR

J_Indy said:


> A definite 'maybe'....
> 
> I don't think there is a dispute on motion-blur - it just doesn't preclude a tapered blade since they are not mutually exclusive.


Yeah ... A tapered blade would give a similar effect. My images just suggest that in the absence of any static-bussard photos of the miniature, we can't rule out the use of straight blades. Yep! Definite maybe! 
But ... don't we have some of those static images somewhere? Hard to tell if the blades are static or not, though.


----------



## Gregatron

I believe in Gary Kerr. If he thinks that the fanblades weren't tapered, then I'm inclined to believe him! 

Been test-fitting and removing remnants of sprue from parts. Still waiting for the pin connectors and RC foam to arrive, so I can get back to engine tests.


Tender love and care is being given to each and every step. The 'old girl deserves no less than my best!


----------



## JHauser

Tapered or un-tapered, what to do? While some people want to make the most accurate model possible, deciding on what's accurate in hard to define. Is it what the static studio model viewed in normal lighting or what it looked like on film. At some point compromises or best guesses have to be made. A good point I've seen posted before was that if someone wanted to really be hard core on making their model look as close to the studio model as possible , they would have to remove the trim that wasn't on the un-filmed side of the model and to add the external wiring harness. I don't think that we'll see too many of those here.  It's up to the individual modeler to decide on what look they're after, and they will certainly find enough opinions here, and whether they want to use them or not.


----------



## J_Indy

JHauser said:


> Tapered or un-tapered, what to do? While some people want to make the most accurate model possible, deciding on what's accurate in hard to define. Is it what the static studio model viewed in normal lighting or what it looked like on film. At some point compromises or best guesses have to be made. A good point I've seen posted before was that if someone wanted to really be hard core on making their model look as close to the studio model as possible , they would have to remove the trim that wasn't on the un-filmed side of the model and to add the external wiring harness. I don't think that we'll see too many of those here.  It's up to the individual modeler to decide on what look they're after, and they will certainly find enough opinions here, and whether they want to use them or not.


Agree 100%.

"Accurate" is relative when there are unverifiables involved.

I didn't know Gary K's opinion was that the blades are straight. I thought they ended up that way in translation from design to manufacture (like sometimes things change to cleanly eject parts from molds more easily).

Or for other reasons.

For instance, I don't think if would have been his idea to have engraved gridlines on the saucer, but they ended up on there.

But, whatever is personal preference - "Make it so!"


----------



## SteveR

J_Indy said:


> But, whatever is personal preference - "Make it so!"


Yep! Above all else, this should be fun.


----------



## Gregatron

Hmmm.

So, I'd wanted to do a lighting test of the dorsal, but, after connecting LED strips to the board as shown in R2's instructions...nothin'.

I'm not sure if it's the connectors (I'm gonna end up soldering everything, anyway), the board, or the LED tape.



By the way, I forgot to ask--any thought on whether an armature is a good idea for this model? The general consensus seems to be that the model is well-engineered enough to not need one, but I still wanted to get some opinions. Thanks!


----------



## RossW

I haven't seen the need - this is one of the best engineered Sci-Fi kits I've ever worked on, and PL really thought about the size and weight involved and did a mighty fine job in working to make it structurally sound.


----------



## SteveR

Gregatron said:


> By the way, I forgot to ask--any thought on whether an armature is a good idea for this model?


Here are a couple of threads on that:

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=403297&highlight=armature

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=399939&highlight=armature


----------



## Gregatron

Okay, so, I soldered the diodes and pin connectors to the new motors, making sure to reverse polarity on one, so that they spin in opposite directions. These motors spin at 58 rpm, which looks to be a good match for the real model. I may forego installing a control for motor speed, as a result.


Still need to find a proper-sized nut and screw assembly to serve as the spindle that attaches to the spinner, as well as some silicone tubing to help with noise.


----------



## JGG1701

Gregatron said:


> By the way, I forgot to ask--any thought on whether an armature is a good idea for this model? The general consensus seems to be that the model is well-engineered enough to not need one, but I still wanted to get some opinions. Thanks!


Hey if you are concerned about support, do what I done to "My 22" Cutaway"
Transparent acrylic stands.
See:

-Jim


----------



## Trekkriffic

Regarding the need for a support armature, I've had mine sitting on a table in my garage for over a year with just the support rod under the front of the secondary hull. It's been exposed to temps ranging from 85-90 degrees in the summer to as low as 55-60 degrees at night and it has never sagged.


----------



## Gregatron

So, I snipped off the connectors and soldered the dorsal LED strip directly to the wires, then plugged it into the board.


Still nothin'! Could the LED strip itself be the problem?


----------



## Trekkriffic

Gregatron said:


> Still nothin'! Could the LED strip itself be the problem?


Possibly. Did you try it with a different strip? One you've plugged into a different port and know it's good? If you try that and it still won't work you've probably got a bad port on the board. A simple electrical tester would also tell you if the port is providing current. Also, forgive me for asking but, did you make sure to solder the red wire to the positive contact and the black to the negative contact on the strip? They won't work backwards.


----------



## Gregatron

Trekkriffic said:


> Possibly. Did you try it with a different strip? One you've plugged into a different port and know it's good? If you try that and it still won't work you've probably got a bad port on the board. A simple electrical tester would also tell you if the port is providing current. Also, forgive me for asking but, did you make sure to solder the red wire to the positive contact and the black to the negative contact on the strip? They won't work backwards.



Guess what? It's always the simple things.

You're exactly right, on that last part. I foolishly followed the R2 instructions, which clearly instruct one to attach the black wire to the positive tab, and red to negative.

Of course, that's backwards! Thanks to a quick fix, the LEDs work, now!


----------



## Gregatron

And, thanks to that little fix, I'm now doing light tests...


----------



## Trekkriffic

Looks nice! Those instructions have a few errors in them for sure. Glad you fixed it!


----------



## Gregatron

Question for JHauser--


I'm wondering just how you attached your spindle to the bearing. I note that you mentioned that your bearings can take a shaft from both sides, whereas the ones you linked to take a shaft on one side, while having a threaded post on the other (a detail I missed, before now).

Trying to attached a screw to a nut, and the nut to the bearing's post makes for a wobbly and unstable assembly.

I'm now wondering if I should try different bearings, or if there's a way to use the ones I have. Hmmm.


----------



## Trekkriffic

Deleted post.


----------



## Trekkriffic

Deleted post.


----------



## JHauser

Gregatron said:


> Question for JHauser--
> 
> 
> I'm wondering just how you attached your spindle to the bearing. I note that you mentioned that your bearings can take a shaft from both sides, whereas the ones you linked to take a shaft on one side, while having a threaded post on the other (a detail I missed, before now).
> 
> Trying to attached a screw to a nut, and the nut to the bearing's post makes for a wobbly and unstable assembly.
> 
> I'm now wondering if I should try different bearings, or if there's a way to use the ones I have. Hmmm.


The bearings that I used (both ends have female threads) were the only matching pair that I had. I only had one male/female bearing like the ones that I found later and provided you with the link. You already have the advantage of not having to add anything to attach the silicone tube to. Just push it onto the threaded post. For the shaft for the spinner, do the same thing that I did. You just need a long #4-40 screw and locking nut. If you are going to use the stock spinners, you will also need to remove the head and file off some of the threads.


----------



## JHauser

Here's a few pictures to help:

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/attachment.php?attachmentid=171188&d=1363045082

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/attachment.php?attachmentid=171186&d=1363045082

I ended not using the stock spinners and did this:

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/attachment.php?attachmentid=186070&d=1394935708


----------



## Gregatron

Thanks for the tips, gents!


As it happens, I'd already picked up some 4-40 socket head cap screws, and they fit the bearings perfectly. 

However, I still need to figure out what to use as a drive shaft, since the silicone tubing doesn't effectively link the bearing's threaded post to the motor's mounting post. Hmmm.


Essentially, I was previously trying to do the opposite--using the 2-56 threaded coupler as a drive shaft, while trying to attach a spindle to the bearing's threaded post.


----------



## JHauser

I just added a brass sleeve to the shaft.

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/attachment.php?attachmentid=171368&d=1363290959

If you had some small diameter shrink tube, you could build it up.


----------



## RossW

If the motor nub is attached to the spindle with some kind of flexible tubing, isn't there a concern about it not being centred and hence have some irregular motion introduced?


----------



## RossW

JHauser said:


> I ended not using the stock spinners and did this:
> 
> http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/attachment.php?attachmentid=186070&d=1394935708


What is that brass piece attached to the shaft? And how did you screw the dome to it? I think this would look better in scale than the ootb kit part - I think the centre part is to too wide in diameter when looking at the dome from the outside. How did you remove the spindle and clean it up so well?


----------



## JHauser

RossW said:


> If the motor nub is attached to the spindle with some kind of flexible tubing, isn't there a concern about it not being centred and hence have some irregular motion introduced?


No, the bearing is fixed in the housing and doesn't move or wobble. The silicone tube works like a universal joint between the bearing and the motor. Look close at my video, the small screw head has a minimal foot print and there is no wobble.


----------



## RossW

JHauser said:


> No, the bearing is fixed in the housing and doesn't move or wobble. The silicone tube works like a universal joint between the bearing and the motor. Look close at my video, the small screw head has a minimal foot print and there is no wobble.


I think I missed your video link - I'll have to go back and find it. But how did you remove the clear spindle and clean it up so well?


----------



## JHauser

RossW said:


> What is that brass piece attached to the shaft? And how did you screw the dome to it? I think this would look better in scale than the ootb kit part - I think the centre part is to too wide in diameter when looking at the dome from the outside. How did you remove the spindle and clean it up so well?


The brass piece is a threaded coupler that I turned down along with a torx screw on my drill press using a file. The threaded coupler is threaded onto the threaded rod and the dome is attached to the threaded coupler with the screw (man that's a lot of threaded stuff, lol) . The domes are not the originals. They were purchased here:


http://www.kitkraft.biz/product.php?productid=2568&cat=1346&page=1

The video is at post #76.


----------



## RossW

Thanks!


----------



## RossW

Deleted post.


----------



## RossW

JHauser said:


> The brass piece is a threaded coupler that I turned down along with a torx screw on my drill press using a file. The threaded coupler is threaded onto the threaded rod and the dome is attached to the threaded coupler with the screw (man that's a lot of threaded stuff, lol) . The domes are not the originals. They were purchased here:
> 
> 
> http://www.kitkraft.biz/product.php?productid=2568&cat=1346&page=1
> 
> The video is at post #76.


A brass version of something like this?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Stainless-Steel-Coupling-Nuts-Threaded-Rod-UNC-4-40-X-5-16-x-7-16-Qty-1-/200970809079?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ecacb2ef7


----------



## Gregatron

Still working on the drive shaft problem. Been playing with various diameters of brass rod, but haven't come up with anything satisfactory, yet.


----------



## JHauser

Gregatron said:


> Still working on the drive shaft problem. Been playing with various diameters of brass rod, but haven't come up with anything satisfactory, yet.


My bearings used a 2-56 thread. I had these laying around in my workshop:

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXK088

This is what I did with it:

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt66/JDH_05/Bussards012.jpg

The full piece is at the bottom of the photo. I cut enough off enough to fit on the motor shaft and push it on. It was a nice friction fit if I remember right, I may have put a drop of CA glue on for good measure. What was left over, I threaded into the bearing (which you don't have to do).

Your bearings have a 4-40 thread so I think that this would possibly work as well:

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXK089&P=M

If you had four of those and a 4-40 tap, you could use the extra two and fabricate a threaded coupling for attaching the aftermarket dome that I posted the link earlier.

The silicone tube can be had here also:

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXD728&P=ML


----------



## JHauser

RossW said:


> A brass version of something like this?
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Stainless-Steel-Coupling-Nuts-Threaded-Rod-UNC-4-40-X-5-16-x-7-16-Qty-1-/200970809079?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ecacb2ef7


Yes 

This is how I made the part to mount my spinner:

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt66/JDH_05/Bussards039.jpg

I modified this part:

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXD646&P=0

I drilled it out and tapped it. I also used a brass nut as a locking nut to keep it from spinning off. There are 4-40 brass standoffs use to mount computer mother boards that also could be modified. Or you could do as I suggested in the previous post.


----------



## Gregatron

Food for thought, JHauser. Thanks! I'll look into some of these options. I'm not really seeing a need to replace the stock spinners, at this point. It's just a matter of getting the motor/bearing assemblies to be strong and stable.


Anyway, I switched gears, and have begun doing some sanding (where necessary) to ensure that the various window inserts fit flush to the outer hull.

I've also begun light-blocking the saucer halves and the B/C deck structure. Decided to go with aluminum, then black, then gloss white, just to be sure. Putty, primer, and Tulip fabric paint should take care of any remaining leaks. I'll do light tests when everything is cured.

Still waiting to light-block the secondary hull, because I want to solve the hangar fit issues before I go to the trouble.



Also, I received Ross' blinker boards, and they are great! A nice assortment of accurate blink rates--subtly more "right" than the stock lighting kit.

Haven't had a chance to see how all four boards will fit in the forward secondary hull, yet. Fortunately, there aren't any windows in that section to potentially be blocked from lighting by the boards.

In theory, I could wire up the two new boards to be the ONLY boards, but that's probably more work than I'd need to do.


----------



## Gregatron

Soldered up the two main LED strip circuits for the saucer, and did a quick test of the light-blocking.

Pretty solid, although the locator pins are visible as dots of light around the upper saucer. I'd masked them off before light-blocking, thinking that an unobstructed, styrene-on-styrene glue joint would be the way to go. I may have to revise that plan.


----------



## WOI

Ooohhh La La La!


----------



## Gregatron

Need to start experimenting with my spare saucer pieces before I decide whether or not to fully eliminate the saucer's grid.

I'm a bit leery of drawing it on completely from scratch rather than preshading the grid with filler, but I may end up going that way.


----------



## MartyS

It is somewhat of a tough call on how how to deal with the grid lines.

I filled mine but then sanded so the putty was just a tiny bit lower than the plastic. After painting there is a hint of the grid still there, more so on the bottom because that grid is wider for some stupid reason... But the top on mine came out pretty much the way I wanted, most of the time you don't see the grid, only when you look at an angle where light is reflecting off the surface.


----------



## RossW

IMHO, they're just too wide. I also tried to fill them but leave them somewhat noticeable and it didn't look right.

If you don't glue the B/C deck part (God, I hate calling it that. They only started calling the decks by alphabetical letters later in the movie series but for TOS it should be deck 1/2) then you can use a flexible straight edge to draw the radial lines across the top. After attaching the B/C deck, you can use the black domes to set a compass to draw the circles. That's what I plan on doing, anyway.


----------



## Trekkriffic

RossW said:


> If you don't glue the B/C deck part (God, I hate calling it that. They only started calling the decks by alphabetical letters later in the movie series but for TOS it should be deck 1/2) then you can use a flexible straight edge to draw the radial lines across the top. After attaching the B/C deck, you can use the black domes to set a compass to draw the circles. That's what I plan on doing, anyway.


That's what I did too. Drew the lines on using a sharp lead pencil (I think it was a 2H) then oversprayed with the basecoat. The lines came out very subtle.


----------



## RossW

Trekkriffic said:


> That's what I did too. Drew the lines on using a sharp lead pencil (I think it was a 2H) then oversprayed with the basecoat. The lines came out very subtle.


And it came out beautifully!


----------



## Gregatron

Doing a bit of test-fitting. Even seeing photos and video of other people's builds, you can't really appreciate how impressive this model is until you have one in front of you!


----------



## Trekkriffic

It's like seeing a battleship or aircraft carrier up close for the first time. You really have to be next to it to realize just how BIG the thing is!


----------



## Gregatron

Been taking a bit of a breather. Gearing up to get back to engine testing.

I'm wondering if I should experiment with both frosted and non-frosted spinner domes. Seems like most builds frost both inner and outer domes.


----------



## RossW

To fully diffuse the LEDs so they don't look like, you know, LEDs, I think the frosting on both is necessary. I frosted the outside of the inner dome and the inside of the outer dome, and then sprayed a light mist of flat white inside the outer dome. I might go back and spray a thin coat of clear orange on the inner dome, too.


----------



## JHauser

Trekkriffic said:


> It's like seeing a battleship or aircraft carrier up close for the first time. You really have to be next to it to realize just how BIG the thing is!


Exactly.


----------



## MartyS

RossW said:


> To fully diffuse the LEDs so they don't look like, you know, LEDs, I think the frosting on both is necessary. I frosted the outside of the inner dome and the inside of the outer dome


That's what I did, but did both sides of the spinner. Frosting only the inside of the outer dome looks very realistic when the lights are off.

I did it using 600 grit sand paper, followed by green scotch bright scrubbing pad. Those pads are great for the insides of stuff like the spinner, conforms to the shape easier than sand paper.


----------



## Gregatron

Looking for 2mm lighthouse LEDs to replace the saucer running lights. The ones HDA offers look perfect, but they don't come in warm white, which is what I'm looking for. Any suggestions as to where I can find some in warm white?


Meanwhile, I'll probably order some SMDs from HDA so I can begin hangar deck lighting and fit tests.


----------



## Trekkriffic

Gregatron said:


> Looking for 2mm lighthouse LEDs to replace the saucer running lights. The ones HDA offers look perfect, but they don't come in warm white, which is what I'm looking for. Any suggestions as to where I can find some in warm white?
> 
> 
> Meanwhile, I'll probably order some SMDs from HDA so I can begin hangar deck lighting and fit tests.


Modeler's Brand sells them:
http://modelersbrand.com/html/item_pages/ledpack_2mm.html

He usually sells them in packs with other colors but if you email him he will sell you what you want to order.


----------



## RossW

I used HDA's SMDs for the saucer running lights - glued them over the hole pointing up and trimmed the post from the clear parts.


----------



## Trekkriffic

RossW said:


> I used HDA's SMDs for the saucer running lights - glued them over the hole pointing up and trimmed the post from the clear parts.


I bought the lighting kit which had colored bits for all the clear kit parts. So I drilled holes into the stems of the green, red, and clear plastic bits and inserted the lighthouse LEDs into them for the upper and lower running lights.


----------



## Gregatron

Question is--which method is more effective for lighting the blinkers?


----------



## Gregatron

In the process of light-blocking the secondary hull. Gonna order some SMDs, so I can start doing test-fitting and light-testing with the hangar parts.


----------



## Trekkriffic

Gregatron said:


> Question is--which method is more effective for lighting the blinkers?


I might be able to make a short video of my blinkers in operation in the dark. Of course, the only way to compare the two approaches would be if RossW did the same. And both vids would need to be made in total darkness to ensure uniformity of the test conditions.


----------



## RossW

I'm not using the PL light kit so my domes are the clear ones that I'll spray with Tamiya Clear Red/Green for the upper saucer (nothing for the lower other than some sanding/frosting. Those domes are glued in (since they are inserted from the inside, unlike the upper ones) and are plenty bright for my tastes).


----------



## edge10

This is a good source for prewired leds:

http://www.modeltrainsoftware.com/ledlights1.html


----------



## Gregatron

Glued the pylon support brackets into the secondary hull halves. The pylons slot in quite tightly. The engineering of the kit is indeed impressive.


----------



## Gregatron

Received a batch of 0402 SMDs from HDA.

They are RIDICULOUSLY small. I should have no problem fitting them in those tight spaces between the hangar and the inner sides of the secondary hull.


----------



## Gregatron

Doing more test-fitting while watching late-night reruns of some old, cancelled sci-fi show that no one's ever heard of.

It's amazing how well this model holds together with just a few pieces of tape!


----------



## Landru

Yeah I've seen that show, it sucks 

Enjoying your progress Greg


----------



## RossW

It always amazes me when I see the ship altogether. What an amazing kit of a beautiful ship.


----------



## Gregatron

Hmmm.


So, I'm trying to solder the 0402 SMDs, but I can't get 'em to light. Not sure what the problem is.

As I understand it, it doesn't matter whether the supplied 12-volt resistor is soldered to the anode or cathode lead, right?


I've soldered resistors to two SMDs, so far, but I get nothing when I touch them to the leads connected to the PCB.


----------



## Trekkriffic

Gregatron said:


> Hmmm.
> 
> 
> So, I'm trying to solder the 0402 SMDs, but I can't get 'em to light. Not sure what the problem is.
> 
> As I understand it, it doesn't matter whether the supplied 12-volt resistor is soldered to the anode or cathode lead, right?
> 
> 
> I've soldered resistors to two SMDs, so far, but I get nothing when I touch them to the leads connected to the PCB.


I've heard the same thing that polarity doesn't matter but I always solder the resistor to the negative - (cathode) leg or contact and it never fails. Soldering the resistor to the positive side usually hasn't worked for me in my own experience.


----------



## Gregatron

Still nothin'. Hmmm.


I mean, yeah, it's hard to tell which SMD lead is anode and which is cathode, but it should still work, either way. And, it's not as if the raw leads have insulation that's preventing a good solder, right?

I'd rather not run out of SMDs before I lick this problem, dagnabbit.


----------



## Gregatron

...wait. According to my research, these SMDs use micro litz leads. Which means they ARE coated with insulation, right? If so, what's the best way to remove that insulation?


----------



## Gregatron

BINGO! A light scraping of the insulation with a hobby knife, and we have a good solder joint.

And light!


----------



## Gregatron

That all said, the 0402s are just too small and too fragile. While wiring them into a configuration similar to line "R" from the R2 kit, several of them broke from their leads, and would be near impossible to resolder.


Think I'm gonna try some slightly bigger SMDs. 


All in all, this little experience has been an annoying failure, but also good for learning.


----------



## Gregatron

Okay, I ordered some 0805 SMDs from HDA. They should be easier to work with. Even better, they come pre-wired and pre-resistored, so it would just be a matter of splicing them together.


----------



## Gregatron

Light-blocked and/or frosted the rest of the window inserts.


----------



## RossW

Gregatron said:


> Okay, I ordered some 0805 SMDs from HDA. They should be easier to work with. Even better, they come pre-wired and pre-resistored, so it would just be a matter of splicing them together.


I used 0805's for the shuttle bay stuff as well as for the saucer running lights. The fact that Jerry (HDA) prewires them for 12V makes life a lot easier.


----------



## Gregatron

Been test-fitting the window inserts. I noticed a bubble in the middle one of the three round saucer bow ports. Gonna have to order a replacement part.


The fit is pretty good in some areas. I did a good amount of sanding work before light-blocking to ensure that most windows were flush to the surface. The light-blocking paint layers didn't mess that up too badly.

For certain areas, I think I'm gonna have to cut out individual windows so they fit flush to the outer hull, particularly in curved areas like the B/C deck and lower saucer underside. The clear windows might need another hit of frosting spray, too.


I'm also considering glue options for the windows. I'm thinking two-part clear epoxy, then coolshot (low-temp hot glue) around the edges to reinforce them. Then, some Micro Krystal Klear thinned with water and worked into any gaps on the outside, before painting masks are applied.


----------



## Trekkriffic

Gregatron said:


> Then, some Micro Krystal Klear thinned with water and worked into any gaps on the outside, before painting masks are applied.


I didn't do all the sanding to thin the plastic from the inside so to make my windows flush-er I trimmed thin pieces of clear styrene to the window dimensions and glued them into frames with Krystal Klear. I found that AVES was perfect for filling in around the edges of the frames. It matched my hull color exactly so no need to retouch with paint.


----------



## Gregatron

Applied a few dabs of Tulip Slick to a few spots inside the secondary hull that didn't get properly light-blocked.


Gave the clear window inserts a few more coats of frosting spray. Also sprayed the exteriors of the black/unlit windows with matte clear.

I'll leave the outer surfaces of the clear windows untouched (since, on the original model, they were polished blocks and rods of plexiglass), but the unlit windows will be flat (since they were just painted on the real model, and thus didn't have a sheen to them).


Also been working on squaring up the window openings with tiny files, which will make the openings a bit looser for inserting the windows properly (the paint build-up from light-blocking has made them a tight fit).

If it comes down to it, I'll cut every single window loose and insert them individually. Although, as noted, that'll probably only be necessary for the curved sections.


----------



## Gregatron

Installed the black window inserts into the engine pylons with styrene cement. Now, in the stock kit, the windows come in one long strip that sits in a trench along each pylon. Unfortunately, these strips don't fit properly, so I cut the window portions into separate pieces, and discarded most of the plastic strips.

However, I decided to make use of the white versions of the strips by splicing them in-between the black window sections. This will provide extra strength and thickness to an otherwise thin plastic trench, and to provide extra gluing surface area for when the two halves of each pylon are joined.


I also inserted the black windows into the dorsal with two-part clear epoxy. It took a good amount of filing to get them to fit flush. I then went around the edges of each black window insert with Tulip Slick to eliminate any possible light-leaks. A quick test with a keychain LED flashlight proved that to be successful.

I'm gonna wait a bit before inserting the clear dorsal windows. Wanna take my time figuring out how to handle the windows that have mesh and amber color behind them.

Once all of the dorsal windows are finally in place, I'll give them a hit of Coolshot around the edges to make sure they stay put.


----------



## MartyS

Gregatron said:


> However, I decided to make use of the white versions of the strips by splicing them in-between the black window sections. This will provide extra strength and thickness to an otherwise thin plastic trench, and to provide extra gluing surface area for when the two halves of each pylon are joined.


Did you leave enough room to run wires? That trench is where they have to go.

Don't worry about making the pylons stronger, they are well designed, as long as you put glue on all the surfaces that touch between the 2 halves and let them cure with a few books on top they will be straight and strong.

I remember having to cut that strip from windows as well, but I used the clear ones, painting the inside black after they were installed, gives them a natural "dark room" look.


----------



## Gregatron

MartyS said:


> Did you leave enough room to run wires? That trench is where they have to go.
> 
> Don't worry about making the pylons stronger, they are well designed, as long as you put glue on all the surfaces that touch between the 2 halves and let them cure with a few books on top they will be straight and strong.
> 
> I remember having to cut that strip from windows as well, but I used the clear ones, painting the inside black after they were installed, gives them a natural "dark room" look.


Mind you, I'm talking about the trenches that the window insert strips fit into, not the central trenches for the wires.


----------



## MartyS

Gregatron said:


> Mind you, I'm talking about the trenches that the window insert strips fit into, not the central trenches for the wires.


Wow, I don't remember 2 trenches, the old grey cells must be failing me, spend months working on something and only 6 months later forgetting stuff... 

Still, I wouldn't put any extra plastic in there to "fill in" you want that crisscross pattern to mate really well when you glue the two halves together.


----------



## Gregatron

Installed the black windows in the secondary hull, and went around the edges with Tulip Slick.


----------



## Gregatron

Installed the clear windows in the forward half of the portside secondary hull. I'm not gonna install the windows near the hangar until I can start test-lighting and test fitting with the SMDs.

As for the windows I did install, they had to be cut into sections--or even single windows--in order to fit flush. Once everything is cured, I'll seal 'em with Coolshot.

A quick light test with my LED keychain light reveals good, even light diffusion, and no light leaks around the windows.


----------



## Gregatron

...and here's a lighting test with the actual LED strips from the lighting kit.

I'm pleased with the results, although certain nooks and crannies need more light-blocking treatment.


----------



## Gregatron

Installed the B/C deck windows. Had to cut them into individual window pieces, and did a lot of filing to get them flush to the outer hull. Dabbed Micro Krystal Kleas all over them, then wiped them down with a damp towel, so as to fill in any gaps.


----------



## Gregatron

Man, this is getting exciting. I can barely wait until she gets further along in terms of lighting and construction. I've never seen a Master Replicas model--or one of these Round 2 kits--up close and in person. Must be quite a sight.











As for the additional light-blocking, I'm wondering if regular exterior primer and paint might not take care of the remaining leaks. Or, maybe spraying some aluminum over the leaks and seams before primering. Hmmm.


----------



## Trekkriffic

Are those actual gaps around the deflector housing or is the light just shining thru the plastic? Is the part even glued in yet?


----------



## Gregatron

Trekkriffic said:


> Are those actual gaps around the deflector housing or is the light just shining thru the plastic? Is the part even glued in yet?



None of the parts have been glued, yet. Everything is held together with friction and/or tape. It's just light shining through the plastic of the housing, since I haven't light-blocked that piece, yet.


----------



## SteveR

Gregatron said:


> None of the parts have been glued, yet. Everything is held together with friction and/or tape.


When I was a kid, that meant the model was done!


----------



## Trekkriffic

I got me some black Milliput last week at my LHS. Should be great for light blocking gaps and seams. Anyone tried it?


----------



## Gregatron

Trekkriffic said:


> I got me some black Milliput last week at my LHS. Should be great for light blocking gaps and seams. Anyone tried it?



I need to get some of this. I'd still like to experiment with using black putty and filler primer on my spare saucers to see if I both preserve/preshade the gridlines without having to draw them on.

Been holding off on filling the saucer grid, because. I really would like to try some of these tests before I commit to completely eliminating the scribed grid.

I'm thinking the test process would go like this:

* Apply a few coats of high-build filler primer, then lightly clean out the lines with a thin hobby knife so that their width is diminished along with the depth.

* Apply a basecoat of Gull Gray, which should be reasonably close to whatever color I end up using for the final model.

* Apply black putty to grid, then gently sand smooth/flush to surface.

* Reduce intensity of the grid by misting/over spraying with base color.



The result, in theory, with be a perfectly-spaced grid that is flush to the surface, rather than being engraved.


----------



## Trekkriffic

Gregatron said:


> I need to get some of this. I'd still like to experiment with using black putty and filler primer on my spare saucers to see if I both preserve/preshade the gridlines without having to draw them on.
> 
> Been holding off on filling the saucer grid, because. I really would like to try some of these tests before I commit to completely eliminating the scribed grid.
> 
> I'm thinking the test process would go like this:
> 
> * Apply a few coats of high-build filler primer, then lightly clean out the lines with a thin hobby knife so that their width is diminished along with the depth.
> 
> * Apply a basecoat of Gull Gray, which should be reasonably close to whatever color I end up using for the final model.
> 
> * Apply black putty to grid, then gently sand smooth/flush to surface.
> 
> * Reduce intensity of the grid by misting/over spraying with base color.
> 
> 
> 
> The result, in theory, with be a perfectly-spaced grid that is flush to the surface, rather than being engraved.


If that works it would certainly be a lot less nerve wracking than drawing them on with a pencil using a compass and a ruler like I ended up doing.


----------



## Gregatron

Cut apart and installed the clear dorsal windows (except for the orange ones, which are still drying after their coating of clear orange). Micro Krystal Klear was dabbed over them, so as to fill any gaps. 

Haven't placed the bits of pylon screen or window mesh behind the windows that have those, yet. Still have to paint the pylon mesh piece I'll be using, too.

For the windows that have non-pylon screen mesh behind them, I'm thinking of getting some very fine netting--maybe even from nylon pantyhose--which should provide a very slight diffusion effect.


Here's a quick lighting test, with one of the dorsal LED strips draped in through the top opening. Note that I also got around to light-blocking the deflector housing pieces. I think a few shots of aluminum on the exterior seams and then the first primer coat should eliminate the remaining leaks.


----------



## Gregatron

Testing the orange and green windows, which are not yet glued in. 












Also testing the green ports on the upper spine. I may end up tinting the clear piece with green--rather than using the green-molded piece from the light kit--for a more subtle look. Same with the inner shuttle beacon dome piece.

Also note that the shuttle door overhang section has not been light-blocked, yet. That area needs a bit of putty work, and then I'll be airbrushing some aluminum on it (rather than using rattlecan), since it's a visible part of the exterior, and needs a smoother, cleaner look than the roughly light-blocked interiors.


----------



## MartyS

Gregatron said:


> Also testing the green ports on the upper spine. I may end up tinting the clear piece with green--rather than using the green-molded piece from the light kit--for a more subtle look.


I cut those parts up so they were just green cylinders, and added them afterwards from the outside. So I could work on the seam without messing up those parts. Actually installed them after painting, used a drill bit to get the hole back to the proper size and very carefully glued them in (don't want to push them in too far without being able to get them back out). 

They catch just enough light from my bay lighting system to glow a little.


----------



## Gregatron

Glued in the orange dorsal windows, and applied Tulip Slick to the inner edges of the dorsal halves so as to block the light-leaks around the seams.


----------



## Trekkriffic

Gregatron said:


> Glued in the orange dorsal windows, and applied Tulip Slick to the inner edges of the dorsal halves so as to block the light-leaks around the seams.


You could also lay in a strip of adhesive backed foil to overlap the seams. You have to be careful though or the foil will fold over on you.


----------



## MartyS

The tongue and grove design of the seams makes them naturally good at light blocking if you paint the insides all the way to the edges. I had no problems with the seams at all, maybe because I didn't spray anything, painted everything with brushes.


----------



## Gregatron

As noted, I used rattlecans, and, as a result, the edges didn't get quite enough coverage. However, using Tulip Slick right up to the edges--combined with the tongue and groove design--fixed that problem nicely.


----------



## Gregatron

The fit of the raised rib that sits atop the linear accelerator piece on the rear saucer is not good! It took a bit of careful sanding to get it to sit down correctly before gluing it into place.


In other news, I'll soon be annealing the rear hangar fantail and observation tower PE pieces and bending them to shape. Need to start light tests in those areas, as well as the hangar proper, now that my pre-wired SMDs have arrived.


----------



## JGG1701

Gregatron said:


> In other news, I'll soon be annealing the rear hangar fantail and observation tower PE pieces and bending them to shape. Need to start light tests in those areas, as well as the hangar proper,


Hey Mr. Gregatron,
Would you mind showing pics on how you are going to do the fantail as well as the Obser. Tower PLEASE?
I have the photo etch but I am uncertain on how to make it "perminantly" stay in place.
Thank you,
-Jim


----------



## Gregatron

Glued the sensor/deflector dish to its mounting stem.

Applied Tulip Slick along the inner seam edges (and a few other spots) of the secondary hull to kill light leaks. Looking much better. Still needs some work.


----------



## CyberGolem

It's pretty exciting to have run across this thread. This is looking to be an amazing build and I'm looking forward to seeing it finished one day. Do you have any plans to exhibit it at a Trek convention or LMS?


----------



## Gregatron

CyberGolem said:


> It's pretty exciting to have run across this thread. This is looking to be an amazing build and I'm looking forward to seeing it finished one day. Do you have any plans to exhibit it at a Trek convention or LMS?


IF I finish it--and IF nothing goes horribly wrong, it'll be displayed in my living room! 

It's too early to say for sure, of course, but I daresay that there are other builds out there that are way better than what I've done, so far. My reach has a tendency to exceed my grasp. Of course, that's a good thing, since, in modeling, superior ambition (eventually) breeds superior ability.


----------



## Trekkriffic

JGG1701 said:


> Hey Mr. Gregatron,
> Would you mind showing pics on how you are going to do the fantail as well as the Obser. Tower PLEASE?
> I have the photo etch but I am uncertain on how to make it "perminantly" stay in place.
> Thank you,
> -Jim


Jim,
You need to heat the PE til it turns red and softens. After it cools you can bend it around the fantail lip and it won't spring back on you.


----------



## Gregatron

Speaking of which, I did just that. Used a small torch to anneal the fantail and hangar control room PE parts. 

The the very thin strut at the top of the control room PE was overheated, and slightly damaged. It'll need a bit of putty work, but I attached it to the clear piece from the lighting kit.

Also attached the fantail PE. Foolishly, I forgot to frost and/or paint the lit areas before gluing it on. As a result, clear paints had trouble sticking evenly.

So, I tinted some Micro Krystal Klear with the various colors (clear red, clear green, clear orange), then filled in the slots. After it was dry, I gave the slots another coat of their clear colors.

I'm kicking myself for making that mistake, but the results aren't too bad.

Here's a quick and dirty lighting test. I'll cut out a section of the rear flat piece that the curved fantail is molded onto, then frost the lit areas from the inside. This should allow for better light transmission.


----------



## Gregatron

So, I carved out a chunk of the plastic that sits behind the light slots, and frosted the rear of the slots with sandpaper.

Here's another quick lighting test. The difference isn't terribly noticeable in photos, but, in person, the lights are now brighter and more defined.


----------



## RossW

JHauser said:


> My bearings used a 2-56 thread. I had these laying around in my workshop:
> 
> http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXK088
> 
> This is what I did with it:
> 
> http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt66/JDH_05/Bussards012.jpg
> 
> The full piece is at the bottom of the photo. I cut enough off enough to fit on the motor shaft and push it on. It was a nice friction fit if I remember right, I may have put a drop of CA glue on for good measure. What was left over, I threaded into the bearing (which you don't have to do).
> 
> Your bearings have a 4-40 thread so I think that this would possibly work as well:
> 
> http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXK089&P=M
> 
> If you had four of those and a 4-40 tap, you could use the extra two and fabricate a threaded coupling for attaching the aftermarket dome that I posted the link earlier.
> 
> The silicone tube can be had here also:
> 
> http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXD728&P=ML


The 4-40 threaded coupler is too big for the Sayama motor spindle. I got some 3mm brass tubing and it's slightly too big, so maybe I can try using some shrink fit tubing to make it snug. I am worried about the motor's spindle spinning loosely inside, though - looks like you got lucky with your 2-56 threaded couplers. I would order some from Tower but the shipping cost to Canada is quite steep for such a small order.


----------



## Gregatron

Annealed and applied the brass PE set's ribs to one of the engine spinner domes.


----------



## Gregatron

...and just finished adding the ribs to the other spinner. Gave both domes a once-over with superfine steel wool to frost them a bit. Will give 'em a shot of frosting spray, too.

I'm leaning toward painting the ribs black, rather than silver or aluminum, based on Craig Thompson's eyewitness account of the original domes, as well as my own studies. 

Any additional thoughts on the proper color?


----------



## Trekkriffic

Gregatron said:


> ...and just finished adding the ribs to the other spinner. Gave both domes a once-over with superfine steel wool to frost them a bit. Will give 'em a shot of frosting spray, too.
> 
> I'm leaning toward painting the ribs black, rather than silver or aluminum, based on Craig Thompson's eyewitness account of the original domes, as well as my own studies.
> 
> Any additional thoughts on the proper color?


I went with silver. The thing is, when backlit by the bussard lights, the ribs will look black.


----------



## RossW

I painted them Tamiya Smoke, which looked better to me when the power is off than silver or black.


----------



## Gregatron

I finally managed to sit down and wire up five SMDs in series to resemble line "R" from the lighting kit.

Here's the first hangar lighting test with my new line "R" and the stock line "Q" crudely taped and forced into place.











Overall, the results aren't bad. The windows are a bit dim (and the green ones aren't getting enought light). I'm thinking that if I cut a narrow trench into each hangar sidewall, I can move one SMD further aft on each side to provide more light to those areas.


Also, an oddity--when I unplug the lighting kit's power adapter, lines "R" and "Q" slowly fade off, rather than immediately ceasing to light. Both secondary hull lines ("E") immediate turn off, but the hangar area fades out. What's up with that?


----------



## MartyS

Gregatron said:


> Also, an oddity--when I unplug the lighting kit's power adapter, lines "R" and "Q" slowly fade off, rather than immediately ceasing to light. Both secondary hull lines ("E") immediate turn off, but the hangar area fades out. What's up with that?


2 causes I can think of, the SMDs need less voltage to turn on so they linger as the capacitors in the power supply drain. Or they use a longer lasting phosphor, all white LEDs are blue LEDs with some material(s) that phosphoresce or fluoresce to make white light.


----------



## Gregatron

MartyS said:


> 2 causes I can think of, the SMDs need less voltage to turn on so they linger as the capacitors in the power supply drain. Or they use a longer lasting phosphor, all white LEDs are blue LEDs with some material(s) that phosphoresce or fluoresce to make white light.



The thing is, line "Q"--which currently uses the stock LEDs that go above the hangar--is ALSO fading off when unplugged. If it were just the SMDs, I'd be inclined to agree.


----------



## Gregatron

VERY carefully carved a trench in each hangar sidewall. Assembled both halves of the hangar and secondary hull for another lighting test.

As it currently stands, the fit isn't terrible--only slight gaps between the hangar walls and the inner secondary hull, and a slight gap between the hull halves.

I'm reasonably sure that cutting up the windows and installing them individually will go far toward eliminating any fit problems. We'll see!


I knew going in that, nacelle domes aside, this would be the most complex part of the build. It's tricky rigging all of that wiring and those loose parts together for test-fitting.


Meanwhile, here's the latest lighting test:


----------



## Trekkriffic

Nice illumination going on now. I think you are correct about trimming the window inserts to fit individually. When I did my hangar bay I took it a step further and cut off any flange from around the back of the inserts so the inside of the window plastic was flush with the inside of the hull. I was able to get the hull completely closed afterwards.


----------



## Gregatron

Cutting the windows apart was very helpful. There are only a few minor gaps, now. Need to slightly deepen the trenches for the wires.

Once the hangar is fully painted and detailed, then I can actually glue down the SMDs. Taped down as they currently are, they tend to wiggle around. I think that's messing with the fit, somewhat.


Tricky, tricky!


----------



## MartyS

Gregatron said:


> The thing is, line "Q"--which currently uses the stock LEDs that go above the hangar--is ALSO fading off when unplugged. If it were just the SMDs, I'd be inclined to agree.


Q is a 3V line, right? That would give it a little extra time as the voltage from all the capacitors drain.

Do you have the blinking lights plugged in? There's a good size capacitor in that part of the circuit. So you've got that as well as the ones in the power supply to drain, if you have less plugged in the voltage drops slower.

I guess brushing on my light blocking Tamiya aluminum resulted in thinner layers that still worked fine, to get the hull to close the only trimming I had to do were the tabs that hold the LEDs on the sides of the bay and shave a tiny bit off those LEDs, I even used the full clear inserts for the windows. Also I glued all the clear parts together first so there was no paint to make the seams larger, leaving off the base, then painted the bay from the inside only.


----------



## Gregatron

MartyS said:


> Q is a 3V line, right? That would give it a little extra time as the voltage from all the capacitors drain.
> 
> Do you have the blinking lights plugged in? There's a good size capacitor in that part of the circuit. So you've got that as well as the ones in the power supply to drain, if you have less plugged in the voltage drops slower.
> 
> I guess brushing on my light blocking Tamiya aluminum resulted in thinner layers that still worked fine, to get the hull to close the only trimming I had to do were the tabs that hold the LEDs on the sides of the bay and shave a tiny bit off those LEDs, I even used the full clear inserts for the windows. Also I glued all the clear parts together first so there was no paint to make the seams larger, leaving off the base, then painted the bay from the inside only.



Hmm. I plugged in the various other secondary hull lights, and lines "Q" and "R" still fade slowly.

Also--line "R" is a 3 volt line, you say? These SMDs are resistored for 12 volts. And, sure enough, they're much dimmer, now that the other lines are plugged in. ARGH!!!!


----------



## Gregatron

Quick video test of one of the nacelle domes with the blades attached and preliminary inner dome frosting. Used the stock lighting kit motor.

http://vid57.photobucket.com/albums/g212/GregKirkman/68D8262A-49DE-4790-95BF-5E02CB7CF9B6_zps0s2fstvo.mp4

Note that most of the lights are constant on, while one is blinking very fast. Something's up, because it was doing this even with the other motor and nacelle PCB (as well as most of the other secondary hull lights) attached and working. Huh.


As an aside, I'd like to thanks all the electronics pros who have chimed in, here! I'm like a blind man walking through a minefield!


----------



## MartyS

Gregatron said:


> These SMDs are resistored for 12 volts. And, sure enough, they're much dimmer, now that the other lines are plugged in. ARGH!!!!


That should not be happening, all the 12V lines are direct connections to the power supply. So the only way they should dim is if you have a bad (high resistance) connection somewhere. You shouldn't add too much to the 3V lines, they go through those big resistors on the board so are set for a certain amount of current. I'm probably not remembering the letters properly but there should be voltages listed on the board, each side by side pair is the same, top pair is 3V on both, next down is either 3V or 12V, and the bottom 2 pair are 12V.

I had way too many cold solder joints on my boards, ended up remelting every single one just to be safe. Before doing that I had one of the plugs pull out of the board pins and all, with barely any pressure. Ring cracks around the pins will drop the voltage as you draw more current.


----------



## MartyS

Gregatron said:


> Note that most of the lights are constant on, while one is blinking very fast. Something's up, because it was doing this even with the other motor and nacelle PCB (as well as most of the other secondary hull lights) attached and working. Huh.


Both bussard boards are doing the same? It would be somewhat unlikely to get 2 boards with identical problems....

Do you have a volt meter? I'd check the voltage from the power supply to make sure it's 12V.


----------



## Gregatron

MartyS said:


> That should not be happening, all the 12V lines are direct connections to the power supply. So the only way they should dim is if you have a bad (high resistance) connection somewhere. You shouldn't add too much to the 3V lines, they go through those big resistors on the board so are set for a certain amount of current. I'm probably not remembering the letters properly but there should be voltages listed on the board, each side by side pair is the same, top pair is 3V on both, next down is either 3V or 12V, and the rest are all 12V.
> 
> I had way too many cold solder joints on my boards, ended up remelting every single one just to be safe. Before doing that I had one of the plugs pull out of the board pins and all, with barely any pressure. Ring cracks around the pins will drop the voltage as you draw more current.



It's possible that it simply looks dimmer by comparison when the other lines are plugged in. 


Looking at the secondary hull board, the top two pairs (Q/R and E/E) have no voltage listed, the next two rows are 12 volt G/H and J/spare), with the blinkers (P/P) being 5 volt.

Now, I'm understanding this correctly, I need to replace the SMDs' resistors on line R so that they'll operate at 3 volts instead of 12. This would explain why they seem somewhat dim, to begin with.


Hmm. Now, I'm wondering if I should remelt the boards' connections, contact Round 2 for replacements, or ditch the boards in favor of a custom job.



See, this is the sort of electronic-nightmare stuff that I just have no real experience with. Again, thanks for the info and advice!


----------



## Gregatron

MartyS said:


> Both bussard boards are doing the same? It would be somewhat unlikely to get 2 boards with identical problems....
> 
> Do you have a volt meter? I'd check the voltage from the power supply to make sure it's 12V.


I guess I should invest in a volt meter!


What, you're thinking it's maybe a bad power supply?


----------



## MartyS

Gregatron said:


> I guess I should invest in a volt meter!
> 
> 
> What, you're thinking it's maybe a bad power supply?


With the dimming issue and the bussard boards acting up, my first guess would be something is wrong with how much power the board is getting.

Could also be a bad solder connection where the power supply plugs into the first board. Or bad crimp on the wires in the plug that supplies the power to the board. A volt meter would let you track it down by checking the voltage at every point along the way from the power supply to the LEDs.

I don't think they do any quality control on the boards, the other issue I had with mine out of box was a solder bridge between the pins on one of the 3V plugs, that was easy to see and fix, tiny ring cracks around the pins are less easy to spot. A good 10X magnifier can be as useful as a volt meter.


----------



## SteveR

(Not an electronics pro, but a video pro.)

For the next test video, if you want, try bringing up the ambient light in the room so it's just slightly dimmer than the LEDs. Right now, because the room is black, the camera is increasing the exposure to compensate for the dark room, so it's overexposing the LEDs, blowing them out.


----------



## RossW

Gregatron said:


> It's possible that it simply looks dimmer by comparison when the other lines are plugged in.
> 
> 
> Looking at the secondary hull board, the top two pairs (Q/R and E/E) have no voltage listed, the next two rows are 12 volt G/H and J/spare), with the blinkers (P/P) being 5 volt.
> 
> Now, I'm understanding this correctly, I need to replace the SMDs' resistors on line R so that they'll operate at 3 volts instead of 12. This would explain why they seem somewhat dim, to begin with.
> 
> 
> Hmm. Now, I'm wondering if I should remelt the boards' connections, contact Round 2 for replacements, or ditch the boards in favor of a custom job.
> 
> 
> 
> See, this is the sort of electronic-nightmare stuff that I just have no real experience with. Again, thanks for the info and advice!


The primary & secondary PCBs are almost identical (even the programmable chip for the blinkers is the same, loaded with the same code to blink the secondary hull's Ion pods at the same rate as the primary hull's running lights) - the only difference (I believe) is the E/E plugs on the secondary hull board - you can see there's no resistor directly to the left of them as there is on the primary hull board. That would indicate that E/E have 12V supplied as well as G/H & J/spare. Both board suffer from the voltage regulation approach to drop the incoming 12V to 5V for the IC - it uses voltage splitting via a zener diode, which isn't very reliable with varying current demands (that includes blinking lights).

It looks like Q/R are supplying 3V to the LEDs for the shuttle bay, so if you're using the ones from PL's lighting kit you should be fine. If, however, you're opting to use SMDs then you should connect those to the spare 12V plug as those SMDs have a pre-wired resistor that's sized for 12V (you can run them at lower voltages, of course, but they'll be less bright).

HTH


----------



## Gregatron

Yes, plugging the hangar SMDs into the spare 12 volt terminal corrects the brightness issue.


Meanwhile, I bought a multimeter, and began testing connections. Everything is running in the proper 12 volt range.

However, here are videos of the nacelle PCBs. They were hooked up one at a time for these tests. As you can see, the LEDs fire not at all, too fast, too dimly, etc. It's very odd.


http://vid57.photobucket.com/albums/g212/GregKirkman/31006EFD-7C0E-4475-8522-235CFDFAE653_zpszzklqfai.mp4


http://vid57.photobucket.com/albums/g212/GregKirkman/962B7587-1B21-46A9-89E3-68B435AE2A7E_zpsw044aaic.mp4


----------



## MartyS

OK, so the boards have different problems, pretty bad luck to get 2 bad ones.

Is the room really cold? If you got an old kit the early boards had issues with the cold, even at room temp some people reported they would take 5 minutes to warm up and start flashing normally. How long have you let them run?

The one that has a bunch always on (no blinking), get out a good magnifier and look to see if there are any blobs of solder between traces on the board.

But it's looking like you might need to contact Polar Lights and do an exchange.


----------



## Gregatron

MartyS said:


> OK, so the boards have different problems, pretty bad luck to get 2 bad ones.
> 
> Is the room really cold? If you got an old kit the early boards had issues with the cold, even at room temp some people reported they would take 5 minutes to warm up and start flashing normally. How long have you let them run?
> 
> The one that has a bunch always on (no blinking), get out a good magnifier and look to see if there are any blobs of solder between traces on the board.
> 
> But it's looking like you might need to contact Polar Lights and do an exchange.



As I write this, I've been running the boards for a few minutes. They've both sorted themselves out. The temperature factor may be the cause.


_Y'can't mix matter and antimatter cold!_


Yes, this is one of the early lighting kits, from the initial release. I'd hoped to avoid some of the issues that people were experiencing, but I may have to exchange them.

How are they handling that? Should I contact them, first? I presume that it would be an even-exchange, rather than the usual request for new parts.


And I hope that the later releases have fixed these problems.


That all said, I'm still open to alternative/more accurate/more reliable lighting systems, if anyone has any suggestions.


----------



## Trekkriffic

Gregatron said:


> As I write this, I've been running the boards for a few minutes. They've both sorted themselves out. The temperature factor may be the cause.
> 
> 
> _Y'can't mix matter and antimatter cold!_
> 
> 
> Yes, this is one of the early lighting kits, from the initial release. I'd hoped to avoid some of the issues that people were experiencing, but I may have to exchange them.
> 
> How are they handling that? Should I contact them, first? I presume that it would be an even-exchange, rather than the usual request for new parts.
> 
> 
> And I hope that the later releases have fixed these problems.
> 
> 
> That all said, I'm still open to alternative/more accurate/more reliable lighting systems, if anyone has any suggestions.


I have one of the early kit releases and the bussard boards can be finicky. I've noticed if the garage temperature was cool it could take 5 minutes for them to warm up and start flashing, the worst was the port bussard lights for some reason. On warmer days they usually fired right up right away.


----------



## MartyS

Gregatron said:


> And I hope that the later releases have fixed these problems.


The kit I got in March from Amazon had no problems other than the poor solder issues I mentioned, the bussard lights blink normally as soon as you turn them on no matter what the temperature, although I doubt I've had them in a room colder than 65 °F.


----------



## Gregatron

Hard to believe she's come this far in only two months! I expected to be going at a snail's pace!

http://vid57.photobucket.com/albums/g212/GregKirkman/54FF3CFC-FFE3-494F-ACDA-337BBF4EA039_zpsglpr74z5.mp4


----------



## Gregatron

One thing led to another, and...

http://vid57.photobucket.com/albums/g212/GregKirkman/0E981343-2AFC-4B1D-8FD2-064671231394_zpsikdfwsuq.mp4


It's quite a thing to see, even in its unfinished state. I'm thrilled that I have yet to make a catastrophic mistake. Constant test-fitting and planning has helped to avoid any serious issues, thus far.


----------



## Gregatron

Back to hangar work.


Deburred the PE hangar parts. Thinned down the clear hangar walls, to the point of removing the ribbing. Need to re-light-block the parts, as a result.

Did another test-fit with the lights and hangar installed in the secondary hull. The fit is now near-perfect. 


It's hard to tell, at the moment, but the aft observation posts on either side on the hangar doors don't seem to be getting a lot of light, if any. Any tips or tricks for making sure those windows get properly lit?


----------



## Rahn

I've been experimenting with the opaque shuttle bay walls, and my approach will be...

Drill a 2mm hole into the backside (the outside of the part) of the pods. It does not have to be deep, but you have a good depth of plastic behind the pod.

I got some insanely small prewired SMDs from HDA Modelwerx. The entire SMD will fit inside that 2mm hole.

Use a Dremel with an engraving bit and made a shallow trench up the wall to the trenches on each side of the ceiling. 

The wires on the SMDs are very thin.


----------



## Gregatron

Nearly finished the tedious work of masking and painting the hangar. Still have to frost the windows, add the photoetch, paint the teensy-tiny round lights with clear colors, and add the decals.


----------



## Gregatron

....so, I somehow completely missed the fact that the Orbital Drydock masking set includes masks for all of the hangar alcoves and windows.

Despite my looking at the set's instructions before painting, I somehow didn't notice that important little tidbit, and masked everything off the hard way, with little strips of tape.

Aaarrghh!


----------



## JGG1701

Gregatron said:


> It's hard to tell, at the moment, but the aft observation posts on either side on the hangar doors don't seem to be getting a lot of light, if any. Any tips or tricks for making sure those windows get properly lit?


http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=404075
-Jim


----------



## Gregatron

Attached the big PE parts to the hangar pieces. Still have to add the tiny window frames, then do some paint touch-ups. After that, a coat of Future, then decals.

I'm not real keen on the "NCC-1701" on the garage door that's located on the forward wall of the bay. I may omit it. Or, it might look better with the addition of "U.S.S ENTERPRISE", or maybe even just "U.S.S ENTERPRISE". I could whip up a custom decal for that pretty easily. Hmmm.


Anyway, I carefully painted the areas behind the PE hole with clear green and blue to match the miniature. Unfortunately, the PE doesn't get these details correct--the round lights under the windows should be rectangles. Also some of the smaller window frames are missing their lights altogether, perhaps due to the limitations of PE at such a small size.


And, yes, I did add the painted gray stripes that connect the observation booths on either sidewall, just like the miniature had. Most recreations of the hangar omit that little detail. More aesthetically-pleasing without it, perhaps, but I'm going for accuracy.





























All of this teensy detail work will serve me well when I get to...the Bridge. Which I have plans for.


----------



## Rahn

I noticed your gray stripe on the wall. I have this stripe on mine, as well.

Yours is the first other build I've seen to have it.

I've only seen one photo of the studio model that shows the stripe clearly.


----------



## Gregatron

In the process of attaching the tiny PE window frames with Micro Krystal Klear, and carefully light-blocking around them with dabs of metallic paint. After that, touch-up with the gray color, re-light-blocking of the outsides of the parts, then decals.


----------



## Gregatron

Hangar lighting test, with just the side lights (line "R"). The fit of the parts is off, since they haven't been glued, and the SMDs are loosely taped into place. Still a few light leaks to deals with.


But, overall, the fit is very good, and the effect is very nice. Just a few more tweaks are needed. Then, I can start testing with the upper lights, too (line "Q").


----------



## Gregatron

Finished touch-up painting and light-blocking. Sprayed a coat of Future on the parts to prepare them for decaling. Printed out a custom "U.S.S. ENTERPRISE NCC-1701" decal for the garage door.


----------



## Trekkriffic

Nice! How are you planning to block the light leaks under the walla?


----------



## Gregatron

Trekkriffic said:


> Nice! How are you planning to block the light leaks under the walla?


I presume you mean the light leaks under the walls--where the walls meet the floor.

Answer: The parts weren't quite properly aligned for that test. Once they're ready to be glued, I'll carefully file the connecting tabs and slots for a closer fit. Then, apply Tulip Slick from the outside around all the seams. That should take care of any leaks. Hopefully!


----------



## Trekkriffic

Gregatron said:


> I presume you mean the light leaks under the walls--where the walls meet the floor.
> 
> Answer: The parts weren't quite properly aligned for that test. Once they're ready to be glued, I'll carefully file the connecting tabs and slots for a closer fit. Then, apply Tulip Slick from the outside around all the seams. That should take care of any leaks. Hopefully!


Ahhh! Very good! When I built my bay there were still some minor light leaks in the corners where the rear and side walls met. This was after installing the bay and gluing the hull halves together of course! So I very carefully used a fine microbrush to apply Tulip paint where the light shone thru. Then I wiped the excess away that got on the walls and floor using another microbrush dipped in water. No leaks when I was done. That Tulip paint is great!


----------



## Larva

Really looks fantastic! Can't wait to see what you do with the bridge!


----------



## Gregatron

Decaled the parts. Once they're dry, I'll clearcoat 'em with Future, then Dullcote.


The custom decal for the garage door was tricky to lay down. It wanted to curl up at the edges even before I applied decal solvent. Good thing I printed a lot of spares.


I'd also initially placed the landing pad/turntable graphics too far forward--trying to match their alignment with the wall alcoves on the miniature.

It had slipped my mind that the kit's bay is supposed to be forced-perspective, and that the three landing rail lines didn't extend aft past the front edges of the sidewalls. That's what happens when you're decaling at 2 AM.

First photo is before, the second is after. Good thing I have a spare kit decal sheet. Planning and having backup materials is a must for a project like this. Thanks to those two factors, this was an easily-correctable mistake. Otherwise, I'd be kicking myself, and having to order--and wait for--another decal sheet from Round 2.































Next up: the shuttlecraft. Gonna need to find some tiny magnets to affix it in place on the floor of the bay. Also need to study up on the color scheme, and any other details needed to accurize it (such as the landing struts).

Probably gonna have to go with _Galileo_ instead of _Columbus_ for the markings. Really, how could I not?

If only the kit came with two shuttles, so those extra decals wouldn't go to waste. Ah, well!


----------



## Gregatron

Trekkriffic said:


> Ahhh! Very good! When I built my bay there were still some minor light leaks in the corners where the rear and side walls met. This was after installing the bay and gluing the hull halves together of course! So I very carefully used a fine microbrush to apply Tulip paint where the light shone thru. Then I wiped the excess away that got on the walls and floor using another microbrush dipped in water. No leaks when I was done. That Tulip paint is great!


Yes it is. It's like Liquid Light-Block!

I'm also wondering what the best way to assemble the parts is. Seems like using standard styrene glue might be tricky--and possibly mar the paint--when trying to get the parts aligned. Even dry-fitting has certainly been tricky. You get two or three walls in place, and another one falls off. Or the roof collapses. 

Any tips?


----------



## Trekkriffic

Gregatron said:


> Yet it is. It's like Liquid Light-Block!
> 
> I'm also wondering what the best way to assemble the parts is. Seems like using standard styrene glue might be tricky--and possibly mar the paint--when trying to get the parts aligned. Even dry-fitting has certainly been tricky. You get two or three walls in place, and another one falls off. Or the roof collapses.
> 
> Any tips?


I actually just carefully scraped the paint off the plastic where the walls and floor met using the edge of my exacto knife and used Testors tube glue. Any glue that might have squeezed thru on to the bay floor I quickly wiped away using a microbrush dipped in alcohol. The Future should protect your paint long enough to do a quick wipe. 

For the shuttle I drilled tiny holes into the front of the nacelles pointing straight down at the floor and at a 45 degree angle at the rear and inserted three small pins. The front pins were short and the pinheads made perfect little landing pads. The back one was longer to make the rear strut and I bent the end close to the pinhead at about a 45 degree angle so it rested flat against the floor. I epoxied a small rare earth magnet (they are the size of a children's aspirin) Radio Shack sells under the floor of the bay centered in the circle and the pins stuck to the floor so the shuttle sits right where it should in the circle. I even placed a magnet inside the shuttle but I think that may have been overkill. The attraction between the two magnets was so strong I had a heck of a time grabbing the shuttle with tweezers and pulling it out of the bay when I wanted to play (sorry-reposition) it. Now I tend to think the magnet in combination with the metal pins would have been enough. The only downside is the pins can scratch your floor so if you decide you want to move the shuttle or take it out so one needs to make sure to pick it straight up off the floor and not drag it across the floor; although Future should help some in protecting your decal.


----------



## Gregatron

Assembled the shuttle. Just head to clean up the seams with putty before proceeding. Carved out the "V" stuts that connect to the nacelles, for a more accurate look.

The shuttle's nacelles do indeed have landing pads molded on. While I had also considered the use of pins to represent them, I think they might look too out of scale, so I'll probably leave 'em as-is.

However, I'll be using a pin as a basis for the rear strut, which is not represented in the kit.

I also trimmed some magnetic tape to size, and stuck it inside the shuttle's body. This provides just enough pull when attached to a strong magnet to keep the shuttle in place, but not so much that the shuttle can't be removed by a gentle yank.

I'll also place magnets under the floor of the hangar, along the path the shuttle would travel to enter/exit the bay. That way, it can be displayed closer to--or even exiting--the doors, rather than just being stuck at the center of the turntable.

I'm also a bit bothered by the three black windows on the decal sheet. While I'm not lighting the shuttle, the solid black windows look a little too unrealistic. Maybe I'll print up custom decals of the outlines of the windows, to make it look like they're closed.


----------



## Gregatron

Dullcoated the hangar parts.


Test-fit of the parts, held up under a light. Looking good!


----------



## Larva

Looks absolutely gorgeous!


----------



## Gregatron

A familiar angle:













Driver's Education Day aboard the _Enterprise_:


http://vid57.photobucket.com/albums/g212/GregKirkman/A8ED8CDB-4DD5-48FB-8170-7E6489F07777_zpseftigzb2.mp4


----------



## SteveR

Gregatron said:


> A familiar angle:


Very nice! I'm toying with the idea of building the ship closed-up, making a separate shadow box showing the inside of the bay from exactly that angle. 

It would certainly be easier to light the bay inside a shadow box.


----------



## Trekkriffic

SteveR said:


> Very nice! I'm toying with the idea of building the ship closed-up, making a separate shadow box showing the inside of the bay from exactly that angle.
> 
> It would certainly be easier to light the bay inside a shadow box.


Love the shadow box idea. Not to stray OT but, along those lines, I wonder how a larger scale shuttle bay with Galileo and clear ceiling panels and gallery windows for lighting would sell. 
Maybe make it so the center section of clamshell doors could be removed. Same with the rear wall so you could get that shuttle launch shot with your camera.


----------



## Gregatron

Drilled a tiny hole in the rear of the shuttle, and inserted part of a straight-pin. JB welded a teensy rectangle of styrene to the end of it.

And, so, we have a landing strut!










Once everything is cured, I'll apply putty to the seams, then prime.


----------



## Trekkriffic

Gregatron said:


> Drilled a tiny hole in the rear of the shuttle, and inserted part of a straight-pin. JB welded a teensy rectangle of styrene to the end of it.
> 
> And, so, we have a landing strut!
> 
> Once everything is cured, I'll apply putty to the seams, then prime.


Showoff! Nice work!


----------



## Gregatron

Drilled a small hole into the center of the assembled sensor/deflector dish and its antenna to accept a brass rod, for added structural integrity.

Primed the shuttle.

VERY carefully removed the railings on the clear Bridge with a ball-cutter used in a Dremel. Proceeded to carefully mask the display screens, control panels, astrogator (using a small vinyl round window mask from the Aztec Dummy set) and schematic next to the turbolift, then light-blocked and primered.


----------



## Gregatron

Y'know, looking at the helm console, I'm just not happy with the way it's molded as an extension of the floor. That "T" shape on the real set is very distinctive, and, while paint can provide the illusion of it, I may have to perform some delicate surgery. Hmmm.


----------



## J_Indy

Careful about cutting too deep.

Becuz that's how that piece (as molded) transmits light to the top of the helm panel.


----------



## Trekkriffic

One trick with this clear piece is to mask off the negative spaces. For instance mask off the gaps between the handrails (unless you are using the PE rails) and the floor and the space under the helm console. The clear plastic is invisible and will give the illusion of empty space when unmasked after painting.


----------



## Gregatron

Trekkriffic said:


> One trick with this clear piece is to mask off the negative spaces. For instance mask off the gaps between the handrails (unless you are using the PE rails) and the floor and the space under the helm console. The clear plastic is invisible and will give the illusion of empty space when unmasked after painting.


That's a great idea! I may have to just remove the paint from the "knee pocket" sections, then.

Lemme ask ya, Steve--I know that you chopped your Bridge into pieces, including the helm. Did you sacrifice lighting the helm panels for an accurate shape, or did you find a way to light them, too?


----------



## J_Indy

I think leaving parts of the bridge in clear is ok if you only let ambient light from around/above shine into the bridge.

If you plan on lighting the panels from below, you would have a light source shining up thru any clear sections from the bottom.

Because light is transmitted through the whole piece, I think it may be very difficult (if not impossible) to selectively light-block those small/clear sections of it.


----------



## Trekkriffic

Gregatron said:


> That's a great idea! I may have to just remove the paint from the "knee pocket" sections, then.
> 
> Lemme ask ya, Steve--I know that you chopped your Bridge into pieces, including the helm. Did you sacrifice lighting the helm panels for an accurate shape, or did you find a way to light them, too?


I went back to the clear piece for the center bridge section after a disaster involving a hot lamp. As an afterthought I used some leftover instrument panel decal material (from a snap together F15 eagle kit) to add some button detail to the helm consoles. Then I drilled some tiny holes into the consoles using my pinvise. They light up some but it's not really that noticeable. I opted not to add an LED under the bridge which would have enhanced the effect but it also would have let stray light bleed through where I didn't get 100% paint coverage on certain areas of the bridge.


----------



## MartyS

Consider the angles you will see that part from once it is installed and you only have the round hole above to look through. I'd say you could get away with paint to give the illusion that it is a T. But if you want to cut the part you don't need to do the full cut out, an small indentation on the 3 sides of each station will give the proper look when you see it from above.

Examples of the farthest side view you'll get looking through the sensor dome hole:


----------



## Gregatron

MartyS said:


> Consider the angles you will see that part from once it is installed and you only have the round hole above to look through. I'd say you could get away with paint to give the illusion that it is a T. But if you want to cut the part you don't need to do the full cut out, an small indentation on the 3 sides of each station will give the proper look when you see it from above.
> 
> Examples of the farthest side view you'll get looking through the sensor dome hole:


After examining the part, I'm thinking you're right. Paint and/or thin notches would give the proper effect.


On the flipside of the "obsessive-compulsive disorder in very small scale" coin, I just scaled down the decals from the Round 2 Bridge kit to fit the 1/350 Bridge. Looks to be a good fit, at first glance.


----------



## starseeker

What about sanding off the floor from below? That would leave you with a free helm to modify as you wish, and you could even under-cut the toe-ins of the raised ring. Replace the floor with a piece of clear styrene. The light transmitted to the helm should should still be transmitted through the clear floor, tho' probably not as much as if the helm were a solid block.


----------



## Gregatron

Began painting the Bridge and shuttlecraft. May go cross-eyed, as a result.


----------



## Gregatron

After some six hours of paint and detail work, the Bridge is coming right along. Still need to do some touch ups, add the railings and decals, etc., but the bulk is done.











In order to get the red trim on the PE console parts, I painted them black, then flipped them over, and painted them along the edge on the undersides. The result is just a hint of red that isn't horribly out of scale.

For the turbolift doors, I sidestepped any tedious masking and painting, instead opting to trim some very thin styrene to size (with a line scribed down the center), then used Micro Krystal Klear to attach the resulting doors. The PE was also installed with MKK.

The outer floor is Testors' Gunship Gray, with the inner carpeted area being a mix of Light Gray, Sand, and Light Ghost Gray. The walls, steps, Captain's chair, and helm details are Light Gray.

And, yes, painting some shadows on the underside of the helm gives the right look much more easily than trying to notch out the "T" shape of the console.


I must've gone into a trance, or something, because I can't believe I got so much done in one sitting!


----------



## Gregatron

Painted the shuttle. Light Gray and Light Ghost-Gray for the main body. Insignia white for the nacelle domes. Neutral gray for the rear endcaps and louvered vents behind the domes. Dibby-dabs of Red (for the thingamajig on the rear), Gold (for the rear landing strut), and Silver (for the small part of the strut that is not Gold!).

I'll post photos when it's done. Just need to coat it with Future, then add the decals.

I've been playing with the idea of a custom decal to represent either two or three closed windows on the front end, but. I may end up going with the stock, black windows.


----------



## Gregatron

The Bridge isn't done, but I decided to do a lighting test.












Oddly, when I plugged Line "O" into the saucer board, it flashed once, then nothing. The multimeter confirms that the proper 12 volts are still coming out of the board's terminal. So, I used another 12v LED line in its place for the test.

I'm not sure how the LEDs on Line "O" got fried, but that seems to be what happened. Huh.


Anyway, I'm pleased with the overall look. Just need the time to get back to fine-detailing it.


----------



## MartyS

The stock bridge LEDs run off a 3V line.

The way they get 3V on the board means you can't test for proper voltage unless the circuit is under load. They use a resistor to drop the voltage, and you only get the voltage drop when current is flowing. A volt meter draws no current so you get no voltage drop across the resistor.

For the board that goes in the saucer the top 2 pairs of sockets are 3V, since you seem to have an older kit I guess they are not marked like this:










The 2 resistors next to the top 4 sockets drop the voltage for those so you can plug in single LEDs that run on 3V , the bottom 4 are 12V. Since the LEDs are still working and not burned out I'm assuming you plugged them into one of the other 3V sockets and not one of the Gs. Try the O line again but wiggle the socket a bit, if it flashes on and off you've got bad solder joints on the socket that need reflowing (touch an iron to the joint to remelt the solder), I had several like that on both boards.


----------



## Gregatron

Must've misread the board--yeah, line "O" is not 12v. That being said, the LEDs that plug into "O" don't seem to work in any of the other 3v terminals.

I'll have to experiment when I get a chance.


----------



## RossW

You may have damaged them by connecting them to 12V. Might need to replace them.


----------



## MartyS

Gregatron said:


> Must've misread the board--yeah, line "O" is not 12v. That being said, the LEDs that plug into "O" don't seem to work in any of the other 3v terminals.


So you were not using the "O" LEDs for that test? If you plugged those into one of the "G" 12V sockets the bright flash was them burning out. Even though there are 3 LEDs in that bundle they are connected in parallel, so they run off 3V the same as a single LED. Those are standard round LEDs you could get anywhere, even Radio Shack (while they are still in business)...


----------



## Gregatron

I plugged line "O" into terminal "O". At least, I thought I did. I suppose it's possible that I accidentally plugged it into a "G" terminal, by accident. That must be what happened, since the LEDs seems to be the problem.

I just tested line "L" in the terminal for line "O", since they both run on 3 volts, and it lights up fine.

I have a batch of spare LEDs. Just need to check and see if I have any warm white LEDs that are rated for 3 volt operation.


Fortunately, there's a Radio Shack literally down the street from me, so I can pop over there, if need be. I just hope they have warm white, as well as cool. I don't want to mix up my color temperatures, here.


----------



## MartyS

I forgot to suggest plugging in a 12V LED strip into O just to test if there was a short across that resistor (should be very dim on 3V). Glad to hear you didn't burn out another set testing it again. If you were plugging into O for the first test could there have been a screw or something else metallic touching the back of the board causing a short? You've got to be careful where you set down the board when you are testing stuff.


----------



## Gregatron

Finished the shuttle. Assembled the hangar, and light-blocked the seams with Tulip Slick.

I even added the "NCC-1701/7" decal to the rear of the shuttle, which came from my one of the nacelle decals from my spare decal sheet.

This has been a moment long in coming. Glad to have finally reached it!


----------



## RossW

Beautiful!

BTW, where do you buy Tulip Slick?


----------



## Gregatron

RossW said:


> Beautiful!
> 
> BTW, where do you buy Tulip Slick?



Any craft/fabric store, or a store with a craft/fabric section (such as Target or Wal-Mart) should have it.


----------



## RossW

Thanks! Is it clear? If so, how does it light block?


----------



## JGG1701

Great looking work!
Looks just like a screenshot!
-Jim


----------



## Gregatron

RossW said:


> Thanks! Is it clear? If so, how does it light block?


It's fabric paint. It comes in a variety of colors. I bought a bottle of black paint. It's opaque, dries pretty fast and blocks lights really well, especially when applied to seams. It took all of ten minutes to eliminate the light-leaks around the hangar seams. 


Anyhoo, I tested the stock line "Q" (which lights the upper hangar, the aft beacon dome, and the observation tower above the hangar doors. The parts don't fit well, with those lights in place. At the very least, I'm gonna have to replace the thick, stock wires with magnet wire, and may have to swap out the whole line with SMDs.

Light distribution is still solid, even without line "Q". I applied Micro Krystal Klear to most of the aft windows, rather than using the inserts.




















And, just for you, Ross--here's the stuff to look for:


----------



## Gregatron

Replaced the wiring on line "Q" with magnet wire.

Ground down the lens of the flat LED that sits under the beacon dome.

Test fitting the lighting rigs, observation tower, beacon dome, and doors.











Need to figure out how to light the fantail lights.


----------



## RossW

Thanks again!


----------



## Gregatron

Painted the hangar beacon insert with clear green, red, orange, and yellow. When illuminated, looks just about right--a pale green that's not too intense.

Glued the green spine lights into place, to see how well they light up.

Still need to work out a solution for lighting the aftmost observations posts on either side of the hangar.


I'm thinking of adding another LED strip to one of the line "E"s to help illuminate the whole hangar area. I currently have one of the strips temporarily in place, to see how it looks.

Still working on test-fitting everything into the secondary hull. It's darn tricky work.


----------



## Gregatron

Getting very close, now--


All of the hangar windows are well-lit. I won't need to add any LED strips from line "E". I will, however, solder a 12v SMD to one of the line "E"s to illuminate the fantail.

The beacon dome is well-lit. A nice, greenish tint.

Managed to sneak an SMD under the spine lights, so they're well-lit, now, too.


The hull fit is nearly perfect, with a minimal gap. Just a little more tweaking...


One question: It appears that part 137 (red spine light) is designed to key into part 136 (green spine lights). Yet, the kit instructions seem to show part 137 being inserted upside-down, so that it doesn't key-in, and with a "stepped" red light popping out of the hull.

Which orientation is correct for the part? I get the feeling that the instructions might be wrong.


Anyway, a few tweaks are still needed. Still need to figure out a way to get more light into those aft observation booths. Hmmm.






























Gotta say, I'm having a ball with this. Been going at it hardcore for some three months, now, and I'm pleased with how it's turning out. Just hope I don't screw it up!


----------



## MartyS

Gregatron said:


> One question: It appears that part 137 (red spine light) is designed to key into part 136 (green spine lights). Yet, the kit instructions seem to show part 137 being inserted upside-down, so that it doesn't key-in, and with a "stepped" red light popping out of the hull.


If you look at pictures of that area on the 11 foot model the red light is raised with the flattened (stepped) section sticking out of the hull. The green lights seem to be flush with the hull.

I cut mine into individual cylinders so I could insert them from outside after working on the seam, but isn't the hole in the green part round, not a rectangle like the top of the red part? I think the idea is to have the bottom of the red part go through the green part.


----------



## Gregatron

I may end up cutting apart the lights, and adding them after assembly. We'll see.

In the meantime, I hogged out more of the inner secondary hull walls with my Dremel, in an attempt to get more light into the aft observation booths. I created a bit of a trench, leading from the SMDs to the booths. This seems to also be helping with the fit--the secondary hull should close pretty easily, now, with no gap to speak of.

As a result, though, I need to re-light-block, and recoat with gloss white. I may even add a coat of Future for extra gloss.


----------



## Gregatron

After more careful grinding, the secondary hull halves finally fit together when the hangar is in place. There's only the most minimal gap, which should be eliminated when the hull parts are clamped together for gluing.

After a few minor touch-ups to the light-me locking and such,  I can finall move my attention to lighting the fantail, installing a pin-jack/mounting post, and making sure all the boards will fit inside the secondary hull.

I also need to come up with a system to make the copper deflector housing removable, in case I ever need access to the boards. Magnets, maybe? A tighter, friction fit? Hmmm.


----------



## MartyS

Gregatron said:


> I also need to come up with a system to make the copper deflector housing removable, in case I ever need access to the boards. Magnets, maybe? A tighter, friction fit? Hmmm.


I put some little bits of masking tap on the deflector housing for a pretty good friction fit, once you have enough paint on there for light blocking it's almost good enough without anything. Did the same thing with the bussards so I can get to the motors and boards easily.

Are you thinking of putting both boards in the secondary? I thought about that but while there's enough room for the boards once you add all the wires it gets a bit tight and unruly.


----------



## Trekkriffic

MartyS said:


> I put some little bits of masking tap on the deflector housing for a pretty good friction fit, once you have enough paint on there for light blocking it's almost good enough without anything. Did the same thing with the bussards so I can get to the motors and boards easily.
> 
> Are you thinking of putting both boards in the secondary? I thought about that but while there's enough room for the boards once you add all the wires it gets a bit tight and unruly.


I had barely enough room for one board myself. Of course I had to modify the mounting brackets to move the board higher up in the hull to accomodate the mini-din mounting jack at the front of the secondary hull.


----------



## MartyS

Trekkriffic said:


> I had barely enough room for one board myself. Of course I had to modify the mounting brackets to move the board higher up in the hull to accomodate the mini-din mounting jack at the front of the secondary hull.


If you tie wrapped or used some kind of coupler you could put the boards end to end and slide them in, there's plenty of room in the middle of the secondary hull, but with all those wires it would be a mess. If you replaced all the wire with magnet wire, twisted pairs, it might be doable...


----------



## Gregatron

Okay, I sketched out a diagram of the entire lighting rig--what goes where, and which terminals will and will not be used. It's that much more complicated, since I'll be using two of Ross' boards for the navigation lights.

After charting out which board terminals power each of the lines, I think it should all work.

In order to fit all four boards inside the secondary hull, I think I'll have to install the secondary hull board (and one of Ross' boards) in the middle of the secondary hull, where there are no illuminated windows.

After secondary hull assembly, the connecting wires can then be plugged into the saucer board (and Ross' second board) which will sit in the front of the secondary hull.

This whole plan will require a bundle of wires to snake up the neck and into the saucer (rather than all staying in the saucer, as they would if the board were to be mounted inside it), so I may have to swap them all out with magnet wire, in order to save space in the neck.


Also, I'm having trouble finding a matching 4-pin mini DIN jack/plug set for the main power hookup at the bottom of the hull. Any suggestions?


----------



## Gregatron

Decided to solder an extra LED strip to one of the line "E"s, so as to help illuminate the rear of the hangar.

Also soldered a 12v SMD to the other line "E", which will illuminate the fantail lights. Just tested it. Looks good!


----------



## Trekkriffic

Gregatron said:


> Also, I'm having trouble finding a matching 4-pin mini DIN jack/plug set for the main power hookup at the bottom of the hull. Any suggestions?


Do you have a Fry's Electronics near you? That's where I got mine. 

Panel mount jack:
http://www.frys.com/product/1880278?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG

Plug:
http://www.frys.com/product/17239?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG

Here's how I mounted the jack at the front of the swecondary hull"
IMG_4051 by trekriffic, on Flickr
IMG_4056 by trekriffic, on Flickr
IMG_4061 by trekriffic, on Flickr
IMG_4359 by trekriffic, on Flickr

There wasn't enough clearance under the Round 2 board so I had to make new brackets to raise the board up higher. With two boards it would be an even tighter fit. You might be able to mount the jack lower down below the hull and inside the piece that slides into the slot in the hull. Might gain you 1/8". You could also mount the jack so the plate is screwed into the underside of the model but you might not want it to be so visible. 

The plug mounted to an aluminum tube:
IMG_4062 by trekriffic, on Flickr


----------



## Gregatron

Still tweaking the fit and placement of lights around the hangar. Also started testing the hangar navigation strobes (using Ross' board).

May have to frost the clear "lights" that the navigation LEDs fit into--the strobes are quite bright.


Coming along nicely, though. The fit of the hull halves is now excellent. It's just a matter of planning and maximizing space before sealing the hull up. Still need to look into getting a mini DIN jack, too. Been busy, lately.


----------



## Gregatron

On the 11-footer, the pylon vent grilles sit very slightly below the surface of the pylons.

On the Round 2 kit, the stock plastic grilles sit flush to the surface, and, if you use the PE grilles, they sit slightly above the surface.

To rectify this, I've been playing with various bits of sheet styrene to place inside the slots, which the PE can then sit atop. I think I've now found the right thickness, because when test-fitting the parts, the PE grills sit very, very slightly below the surface, which looks right.


----------



## MartyS

Gregatron said:


> To rectify this, I've been playing with various bits of sheet styrene to place inside the slots, which the PE can then sit atop. I think I've now found the right thickness, because when test-fitting the parts, the PE grills sit very, very slightly below the surface, which looks right.


I put styrene rods behind the PE grills for the effect of pipes in there. But they were not thick enough to hold the grills just below the surface. So I simply used masking tape through the center of the grills to hold them in place and used a pin to dab tiny bits of CA glue around the edges. Let that dry and then removed the tape, dabbed more CA where the tape was and the grills are held in place pretty well.


----------



## Gregatron

Taking a break. Ordered a mini DIN connector, and am waiting for it to arrive.


----------



## Gregatron

For anyone who's been wondering--no, this build isn't dead!

I've just been recharging my batteries for the last few weeks. After all of the work that's gone into the hangar and the lighting, I've needed to step back and take a breather, so I don't get burned-out. This build should be fun, not a chore!

I'll be getting back to it when I feel I'm ready, sometime soon. Looking forward to it.


----------



## SteveR

Gregatron said:


> I'm also wondering if I shouldn't frost the clear inserts from the rear.


As others have done, I'm considering using the white windows: already diffused, and (mostly) white when the power's off.


----------



## RossW

SteveR said:


> As others have done, I'm considering using the white windows: already diffused, and (mostly) white when the power's off.


I started with the clear windows thinking I could frost them and have it look good, but the hull plastic is so thick that you can see the walls through the clear windows, which didn't look good to me. So now I'm tearing them all out and replacing them with the white ones, which should knock down the 12V LED light strip's brightness and also look good powered off.


----------



## Trekkriffic

I went with the milky white windows too.


----------



## Gregatron

Starting to slowly ease my way back in.


Still struggling to properly light the secondary hull lights. Still trying to figure out how to light the outer Bridge dome, while also allowing for the interior to be viewable (likely via either a removable or flip-up dome).


----------



## Trekkriffic

Gregatron said:


> Starting to slowly ease my way back in.
> 
> 
> Still struggling to properly light the secondary hull lights. Still trying to figure out how to light the outer Bridge dome, while also allowing for the interior to be viewable (likely via either a removable or flip-up dome).


On my build I used the translucent milky white dome since I wanted the dome to light up with a white glow. To light it I used a surface mount LED glued to a piece of thin clear sheet styrene itelf glued to a disc of thin grey styrene sheet with a hole punched thru the center to allow the light from the dome to shine down into the bridge. I ran solid 30 AWG wire from the LED out the back of the dome and thru two holes drilled thru a soffet I made to fit between the bridge part and the inside of the hull at the back wall of the bridge. The wires are flexible enough to bend but stiff enough so that the dome stays up when I pop it off the top of the bridge. 

SMD LED wired up:
https://flic.kr/p/eBRb9v
https://flic.kr/p/eBUnjW

Soffet:
https://flic.kr/p/eBRbaz
https://flic.kr/p/eBUnm9

Wires fed thru soffet and out the back of the bridge:
https://flic.kr/p/eBRb78

Bridge dome lit:
https://flic.kr/p/eBRb72

Dome flipped up:
https://flic.kr/p/eBUnc9


----------



## MartyS

I cut little tiny Vs along the top of the bridge, on the sides where the 2 LEDs are, you can't see them through the top hole, but they let a lot of light through and some of it hits the rim of the hole, the white plastic dome catches it and gets lit up, not as bright as the bottom dome, but pretty good. 

Looking through my photos I don't seem to have taken one of the bridge with the V cuts.


----------



## Gregatron

I'm thinking of crafting a fully-removable clear dome with an LED mounted inside, and brass tabs sticking out, which would make contact with corresponding tabs (mounted above the Bridge interior) that connect to the lighting system. This would eliminate the possibility of wires getting stressed and broken when flipping open the dome. Hmmm.


----------



## Trekkriffic

Gregatron said:


> I'm thinking of crafting a fully-removable clear dome with an LED mounted inside, and brass tabs sticking out, which would make contact with corresponding tabs (mounted above the Bridge interior) that connect to the lighting system. This would eliminate the possibility of wires getting stressed and broken when flipping open the dome. Hmmm.


I tried that and it worked for awhile but the dome tabs eventually would not make good contact with the tabs at the back top of the bridge; the pressure exerted by the tabs against the dome caused the dome to lift in the back just enough to lose contact. I knew this would only get worse the more times I removed the dome and the fit loosened up so I scrapped the whole tab idea and went with the wired approach. Perhaps you'll have more luck with it than I did.


----------



## Gregatron

I'm glad I took a break--I was getting burned-out on the hangar and Bridge, and was starting to get a bit sloppy.

In the case of the Bridge, I'm just not happy with the fit and finish of the console pieces. The result looks too wobbly and uneven, because I press-fitted the parts to try and get them flush against the consoles. I've ordered a new PE set, and will redo those parts. This time, I'll more carefully fit and adjust the PE parts--using the opaque Bridge as a testing ground--before installing them.

Then, I can get back to superdetailing the Bridge, and working on the removable dome problem.


----------



## WOI

Will there be more pics on the progress of this ship ?


----------



## Gregatron

WOI said:


> Will there be more pics on the progress of this ship ?



When there IS progress, I'll supply some photos!


----------



## WOI

That's all we want to know.


----------



## Gregatron

I think I'll be painting the PE Bridge crew, next, while I'm waiting for the new PE set for the control panels.

The anal-retentive question is--do I want to replicate a specific moment from a specific episode for the Bridge, in regards to placement of crewmen (which might also require a custom decal for the viewscreen)? Or, should I do a "general" display, with the main cast doing their thing, and a starfield and/or planet decal for the viewscreen. Maybe I could make use of the PE's 1/350 _Nomad_, which began, after all, as my joking suggestion to Paulbo!

Decisions, decisions...


----------



## MartyS

I'd say it's an easy decision, pick a scene from The Corbomite Maneuver when Balok is on the view screen... 

If you go with Nomad you'd have to figure out a way to suspend it that isn't ugly... But wasn't there one scene where it sets down on one of the bridge railings? 

I'd go with Balok instead of Nomad, better view screen image and a better episode to commemorate.


----------



## Gregatron

MartyS said:


> I'd say it's an easy decision, pick a scene from The Corbomite Maneuver when Balok is on the view screen...
> 
> If you go with Nomad you'd have to figure out a way to suspend it that isn't ugly... But wasn't there one scene where it sets down on one of the bridge railings?
> 
> I'd go with Balok instead of Nomad, better view screen image and a better episode to commemorate.




Here's the anal-retentive catch, though--the Balok decal in the kit features a still image of the puppet, without the shimmer effect seen in the episode (which obscured the fact that it was, well...a puppet!).

Inaccurate!


As for suspending _Nomad_, I don't think it would hard. Just sit him atop a blob of Micro Crystal Klear, or maybe a thin brass rod painted the color of the floor, which really wouldn't be viewable through the top of the Bridge dome's opening, anyway.


----------



## MartyS

The problem is if you keep that shimmer effect and then resize the image that small, you can barely tell it's Balok. You need the clean image to make him/it recognizable. Unless you can find just the right screen grab that works, but I think they would all have too much distortion over the face.

Same would be true for a star field, even a pin poking tiny holes in black paint makes them too large. The streaks they show when at warp might be doable.


----------



## Gregatron

Okay, I received the new PE set.

Test-fitting the brass consoles with the opaque Bridge (something. I should have done, the first time around), they clearly don't fit correctly.

I've been carefully filing them down for a proper fit.

Also, I'm going to fix an inaccuracy--the Defense sub-station (the one to the right of the viewscreen) had no console buttons, but the PE contains openings to simulate buttons. I'm gonna fill those holes.

The TOS GRAPHICS forum is proving to be very valuable in accurizing each station!


----------



## Gregatron

Still deciding what scene to recreate with the PE figures. Getting ready to paint them.


In the meantime, I need to replace the nacelle PCBs. Do I just use the standard Round 2 return policy (UPC cut from box), or do I need to send in the boards for an even-exchange?


----------



## Gregatron

Well, I decided to replicate the last scene from "Mirror, Mirror", since it's one of the few (non-third season, at least!) episodes to feature the entire main cast together on the Bridge.

To that end, I've been painting the appropriate PE figures the appropriate colors (light blue for Science, red for Engineering, a mix of yellow, white, and pale green for Command, and pale green for Kirk's wraparound tunic) to match the placement of the characters in that scene: Kirk in his chair, flanked by Spock and McCoy, Scotty overseeing an Engineer at his station, Uhura, Chekov, and Sulu at their usual posts, Hadley at the Environmental Subsystems monitor, and a few other crewmen. I'll have to fudge the number and placement of these starboard-side Bridge crewmen, since they're not visible in the scene.











In order to have something on the viewscreen, this hypothetical moment would be just before the scene starts, as the _Enterprise_ is departing Halka (or whatever the planet's name is). So, no Kirk putting the moves on Marlena Moreau!

Instead, I scaled down a screencap of the viewscreen from the episode, which features the planet in all its funky purple glory, and printed it on decal paper. I may also paint the dome base supplied with the kit to resemble the planet.


----------



## Gregatron

Phew!

There are a few bits that need final tweaking, but the Bridge is essentially done. I used both the stock decals, as well as scaled-down versions of the Round 2 Bridge kit decals.

The PE crew were all glued in place with Micro Krystal Klear, simulating the "Mirror, Mirror" tag scene. 

The PE railings were a true pain to install, and I ending up painting the red portions after they were already tacked in place with Krystal Klear.


The viewscreen/planet decal looks quite nice when illuminated. The magenta screams "TOS planet".


----------



## Gregatron

Still tweaking the Devil's Concubine--a.k.a the hangar deck. I just can't seem to get the SMD to evenly light the three spine lights. Sigh. There's gotta be a trick to it!


I'm also reaching a point where I'll be ready to install the pin-jack into the secondary hull. First, though, I need to check and recheck the many, many wires involved with the lighting and motors, to make sure I have everything planned out correctly.

I'm also thinking of picking up some square channel brass so as to give some structural reinforcement to the nacelle pylons, and some tubing to run through the dorsal--both for structural strength, and to keep all of the wiring as neat and condensed as possible.


----------



## RossW

I used 3:


----------



## Gregatron

RossW said:


> I used 3:



No, I'm talking about the spine lights just forward of the hangar beacon dome, not the fantail lights.


----------



## Phillip1

Greg,

Your bridge looks really nice. Good job.

Phillip1


----------



## RossW

Gregatron said:


> No, I'm talking about the spine lights just forward of the hangar beacon dome, not the fantail lights.


Oops. Shouldn't post late at night.

I bured a SMD right under the spine lights and it seems to work OK, but I haven't really focussed on how even the 3 are lit. Maybe some Scotch tape over the SMD will diffuse it and spread it out more?


----------



## Gregatron

Okay, so, the spine lights seem pretty evenly lit when. I place a tiny strip of Bare Metal Foil underneath the SMD in order to better reflect the light. More tests are necessary.


Meanwhile, line "Q" (the hangar beacon dome and the two LEDs that go in the hangar roof trenches) has gone dead, for reasons unknown. Sigh. Might be a loose connector, or something. I dunno.

I also light-blocked the forward secondary hull (the outer sensor/deflector housing).


I painted a spare piece of pylon mesh Medium Gray, and will soon install it behind the appropriate dorsal windows.

I also...discretely...bought a pair of black pantyhose, bits of which will be placed diagonally behind the appropriate dorsal windows so as to simulate the window screening on the 11-footer.


----------



## Gregatron

Installed bits of pylon mesh and pantyhose behind the appropriate dorsal windows.

The effect looks good--nice and subtle. The pantyhosed windows should look less gray when properly lit by LEDs (rather than by my holding one half of the pylon up to a distant light source, as seen below).


----------



## Gregatron

As you may recall, my nacelle PCBs are from an original release of the electronics kit, and take many minutes to begin their proper lighting sequence.

For those who are wondering--I contacted Round 2, and the standard part replacement policy applies (UPC code cut from box) rather than any sort of even exchange.

So, I'll be sending in that request (along, I think, with a request for a new LED line "Q").


----------



## Gregatron

Been working on the stand--or, more correctly, the mini-DIN jack that will allow the model to be removed from the stand.

Bought some thick-walled aluminum tubing. I figure I'll insert the male plug portion into a larger-diameter tube, then insert a smaller tube into the larger one for extra strength. I also bought some neoprene rubber washers. I'm thinking I'll attach one to the top of the stand tube where it meets the bottom of the model, so as to provide a spacer that will keep the bottom of the model from being scratched by the tube stand.

Meanwhile, I took the bottom hull piece that the mounting tube is inserted into, enlarged the hole, and removed the structural elements. The setup is similar to what Trekriffic did with his model, but my female mini-DIN piece will sit down inside the plastic part, to be glued in with JB Weld, and then covered with Apoxie Sculpt, for a very strong joint. This will also save on interior secondary hull space, since the connector fits perfectly into the existing secondary hull, without any need to modify the big hull halves to accommodate it.


----------



## Gregatron

My thoughts have been drifting back to the Devil's other concubine--the nacelle motors.

I still haven't found a satisfying motor/bearing setup to reduce to the noise. I'm also considering options--along with the necessary foam tubing--to help dampen the noise, like coating the interior walls of the nacelles with a spray-on rubber or silicone. Hmmm.


----------



## RossW

What motor are you using? Is it the Sayama one?


----------



## MartyS

My experiments showed you have to stop the entire model from vibrating and acting like a sounding board. adding sound dampening inside the nacelles will only cut down on some of the noise. You've got to stop the motor from transmitting acoustic frequencies to the model.

So, the 2 options are: A motor with less vibration. Or isolate the motor.

I built an adapter to move the motor out of the cap, so the only physical contact with the model was through rubber tubing. This cut the noise down to almost nothing without any other sound dampening in the nacelles.

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showpost.php?p=4758990&postcount=121

Noise comparison video a few posts above that one.


----------



## Gregatron

RossW said:


> What motor are you using? Is it the Sayama one?


Yes, that's right.


----------



## Gregatron

MartyS said:


> My experiments showed you have to stop the entire model from vibrating and acting like a sounding board. adding sound dampening inside the nacelles will only cut down on some of the noise. You've got to stop the motor from transmitting acoustic frequencies to the model.
> 
> So, the 2 options are: A motor with less vibration. Or isolate the motor.
> 
> I built an adapter to move the motor out of the cap, so the only physical contact with the model was through rubber tubing. This cut the noise down to almost nothing without any other sound dampening in the nacelles.
> 
> http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showpost.php?p=4758990&postcount=121
> 
> Noise comparison video a few posts above that one.


Yes, as you may recall, I was working to decouple to motors from the nacelles with some sort of adapter. Still trying to find the best configuration for that.


----------



## MartyS

If you don't have access to a lathe the alternative to the adapter I made would be to use half inch OD plastic tubing and get some bearings that fit inside the tube to hold the inner 2mm rod. Basically anything that lets you use soft rubber as the only connection between the motor and the model will work.


----------



## RMC

Gregatron said:


> Installed bits of pylon mesh and pantyhose behind the appropriate dorsal windows.
> 
> The effect looks good--nice and subtle. The pantyhosed windows should look less gray when properly lit by LEDs (rather than by my holding one half of the pylon up to a distant light source, as seen below).


did you use "ding all" for the windows ?????????


----------



## Gregatron

RMC said:


> did you use "ding all" for the windows ?????????



Nope. Just the kit-supplied window inserts.


----------



## Gregatron

MartyS said:


> My experiments showed you have to stop the entire model from vibrating and acting like a sounding board. adding sound dampening inside the nacelles will only cut down on some of the noise. You've got to stop the motor from transmitting acoustic frequencies to the model.
> 
> So, the 2 options are: A motor with less vibration. Or isolate the motor.
> 
> I built an adapter to move the motor out of the cap, so the only physical contact with the model was through rubber tubing. This cut the noise down to almost nothing without any other sound dampening in the nacelles.
> 
> http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showpost.php?p=4758990&postcount=121
> 
> Noise comparison video a few posts above that one.


Okay, Marty--I've been struggling with a few different setups, involving bearings, threaded couplers, and silicone tubing. Can't seem to get the assembly to work without significant wobble and noise. The bearings I found don't allow for a single axle to pass through, which is causing much of the problem, I think,

I'm more than a bit curious about the specifics of your setup, and how to possibly replicate it!


----------



## MartyS

It's pretty simple:












If you have access to a small lathe the large red part is 1/2 inch diameter acrylic rod, drilled out from each end.
Pretty sure you could find various sizes of styrene tube to nest together and create something similar if you don't have access to a lathe. I did have to wrap a few layers of scotch tape around the 1/2 inch rod to get it snug in the bussard cap.

The small red rod is a 2mm polished stainless steel rod. 

I only used Vaseline as lube between the 2mm rod and the adapter.

Motor rod and 2mm extension are held together with silicone tubing.

Adapter and motor are held together with natural rubber (latex) tubing, sometimes called surgical tubing. I tried some different types and sizes, best was natural rubber and not having it stretch much to fit over the adapter and motor. So 1/2 inch ID, 1/8 inch thick wall is what worked best. Motor should not touch the adapter, leave about 1/16 or 1/8 inch gap.

The gearboxes on the motors that come with the lighting kit will come apart pretty easily, so put some tape around them before trying to push and pull rubber tubing over them, I had one fall apart on me and luckily I found all the little gears and got it back together.


----------



## Gregatron

MartyS said:


> It's pretty simple:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you have access to a small lathe the large red part is 1/2 inch diameter acrylic rod, drilled out from each end.
> Pretty sure you could find various sizes of styrene tube to nest together and create something similar if you don't have access to a lathe. I did have to wrap a few layers of scotch tape around the 1/2 inch rod to get it snug in the bussard cap.
> 
> The small red rod is a 2mm polished stainless steel rod.
> 
> I only used Vaseline as lube between the 2mm rod and the adapter.
> 
> Motor rod and 2mm extension are held together with silicone tubing.
> 
> Adapter and motor are held together with natural rubber (latex) tubing, sometimes called surgical tubing. I tried some different types and sizes, best was natural rubber and not having it stretch much to fit over the adapter and motor. So 1/2 inch ID, 1/8 inch thick wall is what worked best. Motor should not touch the adapter, leave about 1/16 or 1/8 inch gap.
> 
> The gearboxes on the motors that come with the lighting kit will come apart pretty easily, so put some tape around them before trying to push and pull rubber tubing over them, I had one fall apart on me and luckily I found all the little gears and got it back together.


Thanks!


Hmm, food for thought, here. No, I don't have access to a lathe, but I'm sure I can come up with something.


----------



## Gregatron

So, I've been playing around, and the noise problem is slowly getting better.

I really do need to get some more materials, though. I wonder what a good and cheap source for multiple sizes of rubber and/or silicone tubing would be. Any suggestions?


----------



## Gregatron

Received the new nacelle PCBs from Round 2. Still need to test them.


----------



## Trekkriffic

Gregatron said:


> So, I've been playing around, and the noise problem is slowly getting better.
> 
> I really do need to get some more materials, though. I wonder what a good and cheap source for multiple sizes of rubber and/or silicone tubing would be. Any suggestions?


Silicone tubing for RC airplane fuel lines worked best for my own build. Most hobby stores that cater to the RC crowd will have it.


----------



## Gregatron

I've already been playing around with 5 mm silicone fuel tubing, but finding bearings that will both fit the tubing AND fit inside the plastic bussard housing is more than a bit tricky.


----------



## JHauser

Gregatron said:


> I've already been playing around with 5 mm silicone fuel tubing, but finding bearings that will both fit the tubing AND fit inside the plastic bussard housing is more than a bit tricky.


I know I posted this before, but maybe you missed it or disregarded it at first. This is what I did and am very happy with the results:

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showpost.php?p=4480337&postcount=1281

The bearing I used was salvaged from an old hard drive, but this is pretty much the exact replacement.

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16273

The diameter is slightly under size so I wrapped self adhesive foil tape ( the same was used for light blocking) around it until it gave me a snug fit.


----------



## JHauser

Here are the results:

http://photos.hobbytalk.com/data/553/BussardTest.mp3

If you turn your volume up high and listen for the background noise without the motors running, you can then get an idea of how much noise they both make once moving. In the demonstration, I change the speeds from off then 1 through 4 and then quickly back down to off. You can only really hear them at the highest speed ( 24 seconds in), which is the best effect I think watching the video, but one speed down looks better in real time. 

IMHO, much quieter and virtually no wobble as compared to stock.


----------



## Gregatron

JHauser said:


> I know I posted this before, but maybe you missed it or disregarded it at first. This is what I did and am very happy with the results:
> 
> http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showpost.php?p=4480337&postcount=1281
> 
> The bearing I used was salvaged from an old hard drive, but this is pretty much the exact replacement.
> 
> http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16273
> 
> The diameter is slightly under size so I wrapped self adhesive foil tape ( the same was used for light blocking) around it until it gave me a snug fit.



Oh, believe me, I didn't miss your posts. And I did get some of those bearings. Problem is, they only accept a shaft on one side--the other side has that threaded post. I've found no way to properly attach threaded couplers to the bearings and keep the whole thing perfectly straight and true. If I could find bearings like the ones you actually used, which could accept threaded couplers from both ends, then this would be going much, much easier, I think.

The closest I've come is by shaving down the bearings' threaded posts, using brass tubing and JB Weld to link them with threaded couplers, then covering the assembly with silicone tubing. It's a decent setup, but there's still a lot of wobble. There are just too many variables to keep the thing ramrod-straight.


----------



## JHauser

I don't quite understanding what you're doing looking at the photo.

Look closer at the second photo here:
http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showpost.php?p=4480337&postcount=1281

To duplicate what I did, you need to remove the threaded brass piece you have on the right side and attach the motor to the silicone tube. Then get a long screw (possibly 2") that matches the tread on the left side of the bearing along with a locking nut. Most hardware store like Ace should have them in stock. 

Then look close at picture #4 in the same above link. Thread the locking nut on to the screw and have about 3/8" exposed. Then cut the head of the screw and chuck the good end (with the locking nut) into a drill press or lathe. Turn it on and use a flat file to remove the threads and enough material so the stock spinners can slip on. When the screw is ready, remove the brass piece you have on the left and thread the new piece you just made into the bearing. Once it's tightened down you may need to bend the screw to straighten it if it wobbles. 

The bearing fits into the housing where the motor was originally suppose to go. The bearing is fixed tight and the motor is loose. The motor has to be supported with foam like I did or something similar.


----------



## Gregatron

Here's a quick mockup of what I was going for.











The bearing would sit inside the plastic bussard housing piece (where the stock motor goes). The threaded coupler on the right screws into the spinner piece. The brass coupler on the left is glued inside the bearing, and attaches to the motor.

The inherent problem is that the bearing has that threaded post on the right end, so getting the brass coupler piece to attach perfectly straight and true to the bearing is difficult. As noted I tried using various sizes or brass tubing to join them together, but the results still weren't great. If the bearing could accept a shaft on both ends, then it would be much, much easier.

I tried it the opposite way, with the bearing's threaded post attached to the motor with silicone tubing, and the result was very wobbly.


----------



## RossW

This is what I have so far (based entirely on JHauser's posts):



I found a screw that matched the one end of the bearing and cut off the head. I then had to drill out the clear plastic shaft to accept this larger diameter screw and I used a tap & dye set to add threads to the inside of the clear plastic shaft for a better fit.

I haven't yet figured out if I can get away with a shorter piece of flex tubing to connect the shaft of the motor to the bearing's shaft, and I haven't yet decided on a DC motor or even if a stepper motor might be quieter. Still a work in progress.


----------



## Trekkriffic

RossW said:


> This is what I have so far (based entirely on JHauser's posts):
> 
> 
> 
> I found a screw that matched the one end of the bearing and cut off the head. I then had to drill out the clear plastic shaft to accept this larger diameter screw and I used a tap & dye set to add threads to the inside of the clear plastic shaft for a better fit.
> 
> I haven't yet figured out if I can get away with a shorter piece of flex tubing to connect the shaft of the motor to the bearing's shaft, and I haven't yet decided on a DC motor or even if a stepper motor might be quieter. Still a work in progress.


You may have already considered this but when you cut the threads into he clear plastic "spinner" you'll want a right hand thread for the port side spinner and a left hand thread for the starboard side. That's if you want them to spin like an airplane propeller; that is, clockwise for the starboard bussard and counterclockwise for port. Your shaft threads would also be right hand thread for the port side and a left hand thread for the starboard side. That way when you screw them into the spinners the rotation of the spinners will keep them from wanting to unscrew.


----------



## RossW

Trekkriffic said:


> You may have already considered this but when you cut the threads into he clear plastic "spinner" you'll want a right hand thread for the port side spinner and a left hand thread for the starboard side. That's if you want them to spin like an airplane propeller; that is, clockwise for the starboard bussard and counterclockwise for port. Your shaft threads would also be right hand thread for the port side and a left hand thread for the starboard side. That way when you screw them into the spinners the rotation of the spinners will keep them from wanting to unscrew.


Thanks Trekkriffic. I had thought of that as that's exactly the directions I'm after, but I don't have a left hand thread screw, and I'm not sure if it would screw into the bearing even if I found one. Might have to use some Loctite to ensure they don't wobble out.


----------



## Trekkriffic

RossW said:


> Thanks Trekkriffic. I had thought of that as that's exactly the directions I'm after, but I don't have a left hand thread screw, and I'm not sure if it would screw into the bearing even if I found one. Might have to use some Loctite to ensure they don't wobble out.


I went with much the same approach you are using. I used these threaded couplers and bearings for my spinner shafts:

















r

The threaded couplings were too narrow for the bearings though so I ended up fitting them into a length of styene tubing for a snug fit. 
I also added an extender to the rear of the coupler using square brass rod hammered into the hollow end of the coupler for a tight press fit then forcing a short piece of styrene tubing the same diameter as the coupler over the square brass tubing. Then over that whole assembly I slid the wider diameter tubing that would slide inside the bearings:

























I wrapped the motor in foam pipe insulation and connected it to the shaft with silicone tubing:










Anyway, getting back to the lefthand thread versus right hand thread dillemma, I too couldn't find a coupler with a lefthand thread. I discovered the need for this after doing a test with the spinner and bussard dome in place and found out the spinner was unscrewing itself and butting up against the inside of the dome! Yikes! I ended up gluing the coupler shaft into the plastic spinner with 2 part epoxy. I didn't use CA for fear it would weaken and crack the clear plastic of the spinner as CA is prone to making clear styrene brittle.


----------



## RossW

Trekkriffic said:


> Anyway, getting back to the lefthand thread versus right hand thread dillemma, I too couldn't find a coupler with a lefthand thread. I discovered the need for this after doing a test with the spinner and bussard dome in place and found out the spinner was unscrewing itself and butting up against the inside of the dome! Yikes! I ended up gluing the coupler shaft into the plastic spinner with 2 part epoxy. I didn't use CA for fear it would weaken and crack the clear plastic of the spinner as CA is prone to making clear styrene brittle.


Good point about CA. Epoxy is a much better choice.

Ideally, if I need to glue the starboard assembly then I'd only use epoxy or Locktite on the thread in the bearing **or** the screw in the clear plastic spinner, so that it could be dissembled to get to the motor if needed.


----------



## Gregatron

*blows off space dust*

Okay, I've been taking a long break. For starters, I didn't want to get burned-out. This model deserves my best efforts, and I don't want to rush it, even if it means missing out on my self-imposed deadline of September 8th. Also, I needed to flex some different build muscles. So, for the past few months, I've been building a full-hero, highly accurate, TOS landing party prop set (phaser communicator, tricorder), as a companion display piece for the 1/350 kit. That project is 99% done, and I'll be posting photos/video in the future.

Also, I've needed a break from the nacelle motor noise problem. As it happens, I picked up a drill press unit for my Dremel, and I believe that will allow me to drill through the bearings in order to make them double-ended, and create a setup similar to the one JHauser recommends. More to follow, once I get fully back to work on this.


----------



## RossW

Can't wait to see more, Gregatron!


----------



## SteveR

Gregatron said:


> I'm also wondering if I shouldn't frost the clear inserts from the rear.


Maybe use the white inserts?


----------



## JHauser

Gregatron said:


> Also, I've needed a break from the nacelle motor noise problem. As it happens, I picked up a drill press unit for my Dremel, and I believe that will allow me to drill through the bearings in order to make them double-ended, and create a setup similar to the one JHauser recommends. More to follow, once I get fully back to work on this.


If you're trying to duplicate what I did, I don't understand why you would want to drill through the bearing. Just look at the photo in RossW's recent post #339 , he's got it right as far as I'm concerned. 

If you didn't want to take the risk of drilling and tapping your stock spinners like he did, you can chuck the screw in a drill press and as it spins hit it with a large file to remove the thread and taper it to accept the spinner. that's what I did before I decided to use the aftermarket clear domes.

Good luck with however you decide to do it.


----------



## Gregatron

JHauser said:


> If you're trying to duplicate what I did, I don't understand why you would want to drill through the bearing. Just look at the photo in RossW's recent post #339 , he's got it right as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> If you didn't want to take the risk of drilling and tapping your stock spinners like he did, you can chuck the screw in a drill press and as it spins hit it with a large file to remove the thread and taper it to accept the spinner. that's what I did before I decided to use the aftermarket clear domes.
> 
> Good luck with however you decide to do it.



I think that if the bearings had holes which ran straight through, rather than a blind hole on one end, and a threaded post on the other, then things would work much better. 

A single shaft passing through the bearing and connecting the motor and the spinner would allow the spinner to stay straight and true, rather than wobbling. As it stands, solidly connecting the bearing--with that blasted threaded post on the end--to the motor has proven very tricky. The whole assembly just loves to wobble.

Anyway, I attempted to dril through a bearing and eliminate the threaded post, and only succeeded in separating the bearing from its outer collar. Sigh.


----------



## JHauser

Don't take this the wrong way, but if you're getting any kind of wobble you're still missing something. The bearing fits solid in the bussard housing and shouldn't move, the motor floats behind it in foam. The only way you can have any wobble is if the screw (the black on in RossW photo #339) is bent. 

I accidentally bent one of mine and straighten it with no problem. The easiest way for me was to fix or clamp the bearing horizontally to something solid like a table top and slowly turn the shaft/screw until the end reaches it maximum height. Then it's just a matter of bending it down to straighten. Just keep repeating the procedure until you eliminate the wobble.

Keep in mind the stock spinners have some wobble in then. That's why I ended up not using them.


----------



## Gregatron

JHauser said:


> Don't take this the wrong way, but if you're getting any kind of wobble you're still missing something. The bearing fits solid in the bussard housing and shouldn't move, the motor floats behind it in foam. The only way you can have any wobble is if the screw (the black on in RossW photo #339) is bent.
> 
> I accidentally bent one of mine and straighten it with no problem. The easiest way for me was to fix or clamp the bearing horizontally to something solid like a table top and slowly turn the shaft/screw until the end reaches it maximum height. Then it's just a matter of bending it down to straighten. Just keep repeating the procedure until you eliminate the wobble.
> 
> Keep in mind the stock spinners have some wobble in then. That's why I ended up not using them.



Yes, the bearing/shaft/spinner assembly is solid, as you note. It's the connection to the motor that's the problem, I think. Using silicone tubing as a universal joint just makes the whole thing a lot floppier than it should be.

Also, properly seating the motor inside the nacelle is surely a factor in the wobble. As it stands, the foam pipe it's resting upon is not a snug fit, which means that the motor itself has a lot of room to wobble--almost as if the spinner (which is secured by the bearing/bussard housing) wants to spin the motor, rather than the other way around.


Thanks again for all of the advice and info. This has been a pain, and I appreciate the support. I'm determined to lick this problem. I'd already be done with this build many times over, but for the engine motors and the hangar lighting!


----------



## jgoldsack

Gregatron said:


> Yes, the bearing/shaft/spinner assembly is solid, as you note. It's the connection to the motor that's the problem, I think. Using silicone tubing as a universal joint just makes the whole thing a lot floppier than it should be.



I ran into that exact issue. The silicon would actually twist in spurts, causing my dome to spin in bursts, not smoothly. So I simply change it to have a shaft run through my bearings from the spinner to the motor, and connect directly over the motor shaft. I used another motor, not the kit motors for mine, so I just have to add a half round strip to the shaft to get a nice tight friction fit, and now I have no wobble, and the spin is true and smooth.

you can kinda see what I mean in this picture. I didn't take any of the whole process, because I just got too into it and forgot...lol


----------



## Gregatron

jgoldsack said:


> I ran into that exact issue. The silicon would actually twist in spurts, causing my dome to spin in bursts, not smoothly. So I simply change it to have a shaft run through my bearings from the spinner to the motor, and connect directly over the motor shaft. I used another motor, not the kit motors for mine, so I just have to add a half round strip to the shaft to get a nice tight friction fit, and now I have no wobble, and the spin is true and smooth.
> 
> you can kinda see what I mean in this picture. I didn't take any of the whole process, because I just got too into it and forgot...lol


I've considered that method, but wouldn't directly connecting the motor to the spinner transmit vibrations--and sound? I thought that was the whole point of using the silicone as a universal joint--to keep the motors as isolated as possible.


----------



## jgoldsack

I didn't notice any difference in sound.


----------



## JHauser

Gregatron said:


> I've considered that method, but wouldn't directly connecting the motor to the spinner transmit vibrations--and sound? I thought that was the whole point of using the silicone as a universal joint--to keep the motors as isolated as possible.


Yes, you are correct. The source of the noise is the motor. I did what I was to "de-couple" the source as much as possible. It also gave me the opportunity to eliminate as much wobble as possible. The two biggest complaints in this model. 

If you're getting "short burst", I found that the silicone tube was first too long and second, not seated properly. I have approximately a 1/16" gap between shafts. Next, to seat it properly, I did a slight parallel elliptical rotation (think of twirling your two index fingers) with the motor and bearing assembly allowing the silicone tube to seat properly without stress.

If you motor wants to spin, you may have two issues.

The first is there is some kind of resistance on the spinner side. When I was trying different configuration sometimes I would have the dome off. This allowed the assembly that holds the "bulbs" come forward and rub the backs side of the spinner causing the problem you described.

Second, my motor fits snugly in the foam. I also use a foam that is designed to absorb vibration. The foam that I see others are using looks like normal pipe insulation. It is designed for it's thermal properties and is much stiffer than what I used. You may want to look at that.


----------



## RossW

Since I'm building my own motor control circuit, I've programmed it to start off slowly and ramp up to the final speed (which is controllable). That helps to eliminate the 'cold fusion start' you see when a motor is just turned 'on' and immediately starts to rotate fast.



> I also use a foam that is designed to absorb vibration.


JHauser - where did you get that foam? And how did you go about wrapping your motor with it to ensure it stayed inline with the central axis?


----------



## jgoldsack

JHauser said:


> If you're getting "short burst", I found that the silicone tube was first too long and second, not seated properly. I have approximately a 1/16" gap between shafts. Next, to seat it properly, I did a slight parallel elliptical rotation (think of twirling your two index fingers) with the motor and bearing assembly allowing the silicone tube to seat properly without stress.



Yeah I thought that was the case, and had mine almost touching, but it still was causing problems.

The noise doesn't bother me too much so I simply said screw it and did it the way I did lol.

Luckily the way I have my built I can always pop them out and try again


----------



## JHauser

RossW said:


> Since I'm building my own motor control circuit, I've programmed it to start off slowly and ramp up to the final speed (which is controllable). That helps to eliminate the 'cold fusion start' you see when a motor is just turned 'on' and immediately starts to rotate fast.
> 
> 
> 
> JHauser - where did you get that foam? And how did you go about wrapping your motor with it to ensure it stayed inline with the central axis?


You can get the foam from about any hobby store/site that handles R/C planes. It's used for wrapping the receiver and/or fuel tanks to absorb vibration. Here's some made by Du-Bro:
http://www.amazon.com/Du-Bro-514-Protective-Foam-Rubber/dp/B0006NATDY

Look close third photo in this post here: 
http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showpost.php?p=4480337&postcount=1281

I just made a couple of "doughnuts" and adhered them together.


----------



## Gregatron

JHauser said:


> You can get the foam from about any hobby store/site that handles R/C planes. It's used for wrapping the receiver and/or fuel tanks to absorb vibration. Here's some made by Du-Bro:
> http://www.amazon.com/Du-Bro-514-Protective-Foam-Rubber/dp/B0006NATDY
> 
> Look close third photo in this post here:
> http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showpost.php?p=4480337&postcount=1281
> 
> I just made a couple of "doughnuts" and adhered them together.



...I think we may have a breakthrough.

I already have some of this hobby foam, and had been experimenting with it, during my first go-'round with this problem.

However, I'd settled into using the standard foam piping, because it's already round, and thus easier to sit the motor upon, when experimenting--unlike the hobby foam, which must be wrapped and taped in place.

I just switched the foam piping out for the hobby foam, and the results are much, much better. Gonna take some finesse, but I might finally be on the right track.

I'm also still considering spraying down the insides of the nacelles with liquid rubber "paint" to help contain the sound, but I'm not sure how effective this would be.


----------



## RossW

Gregatron said:


> ...I think we may have a breakthrough.
> 
> I already have some of this hobby foam, and had been experimenting with it, during my first go-'round with this problem.
> 
> However, I'd settled into using the standard foam piping, because it's already round, and thus easier to sit the motor upon, when experimenting--unlike the hobby foam, which must be wrapped and taped in place.
> 
> I just switched the foam piping out for the hobby foam, and the results are much, much better. Gonna take some finesse, but I might finally be on the right track.
> 
> I'm also still considering spraying down the insides of the nacelles with liquid rubber "paint" to help contain the sound, but I'm not sure how effective this would be.


Another idea would be to coat the inside with liquid electrical tape. It's kinda like rubber paint but comes in a small bottle with an applicator brush. Available in your local hardware store in the electrical section. It should be good to hold the foam/motor in place as the foam should 'stick' to the rubber.

http://www.amazon.com/Gardner-Bender-LTB-400-4-Ounce-Electrical/dp/B000FPAN2K/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1454442441&sr=1-1&keywords=liquid+electrical+tape

Did you notice any noise difference with the R/C foam?


----------



## jgoldsack

I retrofit one of my nacelles with that foam and redid my motor-to-spindle connection with the silicone tubing, only much closer this time. As my nacelles were already sealed, I had to stuff a disc of foam down into the tube, then filled with some pieces of foam, then stuffed down the motor with another disc of foam around it to help hold it in place, and then put some more bits of foam in.

Closed it up and held the cap in place with tape and turned it on.... it is now super quiet, I'd say about 75% quieter than it was. Much better. I am sure if I had not sealed the nacelles closed and done it with this foam from the start (why did I not read this thread first?) it would be even quieter. 

Alas, live and learn. lol


----------



## Gregatron

RossW said:


> Another idea would be to coat the inside with liquid electrical tape. It's kinda like rubber paint but comes in a small bottle with an applicator brush. Available in your local hardware store in the electrical section. It should be good to hold the foam/motor in place as the foam should 'stick' to the rubber.
> 
> Did you notice any noise difference with the R/C foam?


Most definitely. The trick, I think, is getting the motor to sit properly. It's tricky to get the motor to stay in alignment with the spinner assembly when I'm just wadding up the RC foam and smooshing the nacelle halves together. I think the foam needs to be carefully trimmed and fit so that the motor is properly centered, and doesn't accidentally make contact with any of the nacelle plastic.


----------



## RossW

JHauser said:


> You can get the foam from about any hobby store/site that handles R/C planes. It's used for wrapping the receiver and/or fuel tanks to absorb vibration. Here's some made by Du-Bro:
> http://www.amazon.com/Du-Bro-514-Protective-Foam-Rubber/dp/B0006NATDY
> 
> Look close third photo in this post here:
> http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showpost.php?p=4480337&postcount=1281
> 
> I just made a couple of "doughnuts" and adhered them together.


Picked up the Du-Bro 1/2" foam sheet from my nearest R/C hobby store at lunch.

Question: In the post you link to you mention having set screws to make the whole think serviceable (I plan on using some small rare earth magnets). But while you can remove the housing that holds the bearing, the flat part of the front of the nacelle will prevent you being able to extract the motor, won't it? Or did you do some modifications on that?


----------



## RossW

jgoldsack said:


> I retrofit one of my nacelles with that foam and redid my motor-to-spindle connection with the silicone tubing, only much closer this time. As my nacelles were already sealed, I had to stuff a disc of foam down into the tube, then filled with some pieces of foam, then stuffed down the motor with another disc of foam around it to help hold it in place, and then put some more bits of foam in.
> 
> Closed it up and held the cap in place with tape and turned it on.... it is now super quiet, I'd say about 75% quieter than it was. Much better. I am sure if I had not sealed the nacelles closed and done it with this foam from the start (why did I not read this thread first?) it would be even quieter.
> 
> Alas, live and learn. lol


Any photos?


----------



## RossW

Gregatron said:


> ...I think we may have a breakthrough.
> 
> I already have some of this hobby foam, and had been experimenting with it, during my first go-'round with this problem.
> 
> However, I'd settled into using the standard foam piping, because it's already round, and thus easier to sit the motor upon, when experimenting--unlike the hobby foam, which must be wrapped and taped in place.
> 
> I just switched the foam piping out for the hobby foam, and the results are much, much better. Gonna take some finesse, but I might finally be on the right track.
> 
> I'm also still considering spraying down the insides of the nacelles with liquid rubber "paint" to help contain the sound, but I'm not sure how effective this would be.


Any photos?


----------



## jgoldsack

RossW said:


> Any photos?


No, But I ended up redoing my redo with another redo, and it seems to be better now. I'll repeat it with my other nacelle and take pictures this time.


----------



## RossW

jgoldsack said:


> No, But I ended up redoing my redo with another redo, and it seems to be better now. I'll repeat it with my other nacelle and take pictures this time.


Please do!


----------



## jgoldsack

Here is what I ended up doing. Attachments are ... uh.. attached.

1. replaced my old shaft with a new shorter silicone one. Works better now.

2. Cleared out all the old black pipe foam.

3. I stuffed a disc of the hobby foam right down into the the nacelle, right where the pylon joins.

4. I then put 4 strips (the picture shows 3) along the edges of the nacelle, for the purpose of helping hold the motor in place, and obviously for sound dampening.

5. I taped a couple small strips of foam to the side of the motor, to help keep it from finding a way to rotate inside the nacelle.

6.Then I simply pushed in the motor and attached the cap. I still have about a 75% sound reduction. Not as quiet as it would have been if I had used this foam before I sealed up the nacelle, but you go with what you got.

Now when I said it was 75% quieter, that is true, when I am running on the full 12v. The motors won't be running on 12v, probably between 6v-9v, which after testing, if you are a foot away, you cannot hear at all.


----------



## Trekkriffic

jgoldsack said:


> 1. replaced my old shaft with a new shorter silicone one. *Works better now.
> *


*Yeah! That's what SHE said ! * :jest:




Sorry... just couldn't resist...


----------



## jgoldsack

Trekkriffic said:


> *Yeah! That's what SHE said ! * :jest:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry... just couldn't resist...



She would NEVER say that about shorter....


----------



## JHauser

RossW said:


> Picked up the Du-Bro 1/2" foam sheet from my nearest R/C hobby store at lunch.
> 
> Question: In the post you link to you mention having set screws to make the whole think serviceable (I plan on using some small rare earth magnets). But while you can remove the housing that holds the bearing, the flat part of the front of the nacelle will prevent you being able to extract the motor, won't it? Or did you do some modifications on that?


I don't quite understand what you mean by _"the flat part of the front of the nacelle"._ When I remove the housing that holds the bearing, the motor comes out with it.

Maybe this photo will help.


----------



## RossW

JHauser said:


> I don't quite understand what you mean by _"the flat part of the front of the nacelle"._ When I remove the housing that holds the bearing, the motor comes out with it.
> 
> Maybe this photo will help.


I meant this part:



If the foam is wrapped around the motor and secured to it, how will it slide out? You've obviously been able to remove your motor, but I was thinking of taping some of the foam to mine and then I can't see how it would clear that flat bit.


----------



## Gregatron

RossW said:


> Any photos?













Getting closer. With this setup, the noise is reduced by about 75%. More tweaking and testing is required.

Once this motor problem--and the hangar bay lighting--is solved, I can finally get back into this build, full force.


----------



## JHauser

RossW said:


> I meant this part:
> 
> 
> 
> If the foam is wrapped around the motor and secured to it, how will it slide out? You've obviously been able to remove your motor, but I was thinking of taping some of the foam to mine and then I can't see how it would clear that flat bit.


The foam is not wrapped around the motor. It stays in the nacelle. That's why I cut out "doughnuts" in the foam and adhered them together. the motor is snug but I can slide it out for service if needed. 

Here's a couple of photo's showing how it looked before closing it up. The second one shows the back of the "doughnut hole".

This last one is how I decided onto attaching the bussard so it can be service. The screws work well to keep the part tight with no vibration.
The micro connectors are for the circuit board and motor. I separated them so I could control the voltage to them independently.


----------



## RossW

JHauser said:


> The foam is not wrapped around the motor. It stays in the nacelle. That's why I cut out "doughnuts" in the foam and adhered them together. the motor is snug but I can slide it out for service if needed.
> 
> Here's a couple of photo's showing how it looked before closing it up. The second one shows the back of the "doughnut hole".
> 
> This last one is how I decided onto attaching the bussard so it can be service. The screws work well to keep the part tight with no vibration.
> The micro connectors are for the circuit board and motor. I separated them so I could control the voltage to them independently.


Excellent, thanks very much JHauser!


----------



## JHauser

You're welcome. 

If the proof is in the pudding, this is the end results on what I was trying for. The video was taken up-close with my smart phone. Any visible wobble is in my hand (lol) and not the spinner, and the sound is barely audible if you're a few feet back. 

I noticed on Photo Bucket it doesn't play as smooth as it should, but it can be downloaded if you like. Just click on the button on the top right corner and then play it with your own video player. 

The model is shown in primer and not finished in.


----------



## RossW

JHauser said:


> You're welcome.
> 
> If the proof is in the pudding, this is the end results on what I was trying for. The video was taken up-close with my smart phone. Any visible wobble is in my hand (lol) and not the spinner, and the sound is barely audible if you're a few feet back.
> 
> I noticed on Photo Bucket it doesn't play as smooth as it should, but it can be downloaded if you like. Just click on the button on the top right corner and then play it with your own video player.
> 
> The model is shown in primer and not finished in.


Brilliant.


----------



## Trekkriffic

That's a great looking effect.


----------



## Gregatron

Well, I sprayed down the interior of one nacelle with Plasti-Dip. Once it fully cures, we'll see if the rubber coating helps with the noise level.


----------



## RossW

JHauser said:


> If you didn't want to take the risk of drilling and tapping your stock spinners like he did, you can chuck the screw in a drill press and as it spins hit it with a large file to remove the thread and taper it to accept the spinner. that's what I did before I decided to use the aftermarket clear domes.


I've got some of those aftermarket domes, too, but I can't find a 4-40 screw long enough to reach the bearing and still have the dome sit above the PCB. Did you use a combination of screw and coupling?


----------



## jgoldsack

What replacement domes are you guys talking about?


----------



## JHauser

RossW, yes I did. Check out this post:

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showpost.php?p=4518448&postcount=1425

jgoldsack, check the same post, the link is for the domes.

Here's a photo of the dome finished.


----------



## JHauser

If anybody is interested in duplicated the effect I settle on, the text in the above post described the modifications I did to the bulbs.

I also modified the electronics (very cheaply I might add) so that I can turn on and control the lighting and motor speeds by RF remote control.
Here are the links:

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showpost.php?p=4480171&postcount=67

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showpost.php?p=4480285&postcount=1278

You can find it here:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-RF-IR-...hash=item25b0434e7a:m:mXGfE3IG_g8KLYHvpPUNg9g


----------



## RossW

JHauser said:


> RossW, yes I did. Check out this post:
> 
> http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showpost.php?p=4518448&postcount=1425
> 
> jgoldsack, check the same post, the link is for the domes.
> 
> Here's a photo of the dome finished.


That's what I'm after. Do you remember where you got the brass coupler that links the screws? Also, did you need a nut on the underside of the dome to hold it securely to the screw? Finally, did you drill a hole exactly the diameter of the screw or make it slightly bigger so you could ensure the dome spins on centre?

Edit: I have these threaded-on-one-end couplers and I tapped the open end to accept the small screw seen below. This works perfectly and the dome spins concentrically, but the coupler isn't long enough when screwed into the bearing and placed in the plastic housing part.



If I could find a coupler like this but longer overall it would work just fine.


----------



## JHauser

*"Do you remember where you got the brass coupler that links the screws?"*

The brass "coupler" really wasn't one. It' started out as this:

http://shop.dubro.com/p/e-z-connector-for-rod-or-cable-qty-pkg-2/aircraft_e-z-connectors?pp=12

*"Also, did you need a nut on the underside of the dome to hold it securely to the screw? "
*
Yes, if you mean as a locking nut.

*"Finally, did you drill a hole exactly the diameter of the screw or make it slightly bigger so you could ensure the dome spins on centre?"
*
It was a snug fit.

*"Edit: I have these threaded-on-one-end couplers and I tapped the open end to accept the small screw seen below. This works perfectly and the dome spins concentrically, but the coupler isn't long enough when screwed into the bearing and placed in the plastic housing part."
*
Looking at your photo it looks like you almost already have it solved. If you're having a hard time finding a long enough screw, why don't you just add another of your modified "threaded-on-one-end couplers" to extend what you have?

I just made use of what I had on hand. The bearing and the screw that holds the dome on were salvaged from a couple of bad hard drives. If you find some longer screws and would like to do what I did the photo below should help. 

The E-Z Connector is threaded but not all the way through. I had to drill it the rest of the way and re-tap it. Next I cut the head of the screw off and threaded the un-cut end half way into the new coupling with the locking nut first and tightened the two firmly. I wanted the smallest foot print in front of and behind the spinner so at this point I put the assembly (including the screw) in the drill press and trimmed it down with a file as far as I could.

I left the screw long until I check it for fit. You will need a locking nut at the bearing. I had one that uses a nylon insert. Could you use Loctite instead? Sure, again I just made use of what I had.


----------



## RossW

JHauser said:


> *"Do you remember where you got the brass coupler that links the screws?"*
> 
> The brass "coupler" really wasn't one. It' started out as this:
> 
> http://shop.dubro.com/p/e-z-connector-for-rod-or-cable-qty-pkg-2/aircraft_e-z-connectors?pp=12
> 
> *"Also, did you need a nut on the underside of the dome to hold it securely to the screw? "
> *
> Yes, if you mean as a locking nut.
> 
> *"Finally, did you drill a hole exactly the diameter of the screw or make it slightly bigger so you could ensure the dome spins on centre?"
> *
> It was a snug fit.
> 
> *"Edit: I have these threaded-on-one-end couplers and I tapped the open end to accept the small screw seen below. This works perfectly and the dome spins concentrically, but the coupler isn't long enough when screwed into the bearing and placed in the plastic housing part."
> *
> Looking at your photo it looks like you almost already have it solved. If you're having a hard time finding a long enough screw, why don't you just add another of your modified "threaded-on-one-end couplers" to extend what you have?
> 
> I just made use of what I had on hand. The bearing and the screw that holds the dome on were salvaged from a couple of bad hard drives. If you find some longer screws and would like to do what I did the photo below should help.
> 
> The E-Z Connector is threaded but not all the way through. I had to drill it the rest of the way and re-tap it. Next I cut the head of the screw off and threaded the un-cut end half way into the new coupling with the locking nut first and tightened the two firmly. I wanted the smallest foot print in front of and behind the spinner so at this point I put the assembly (including the screw) in the drill press and trimmed it down with a file as far as I could.
> 
> I left the screw long until I check it for fit. You will need a locking nut at the bearing. I had one that uses a nylon insert. Could you use Loctite instead? Sure, again I just made use of what I had.


Brilliant, thanks. I was thinking I'd need Loctite to hold the screws securely but I do have some of those nylon insert locking nuts so I'll try those first.

I think I'll try cutting the threaded end down on one coupler and screw it into another to get the length I need. Might have to solder them together to make sure they don't come undone.

You've been a really big help, Hauser, so thanks very much again.


----------



## RossW

Gregatron - if you feel like I'm hijacking your thread then please just say so. I'm only posting here because of the thread history and we both seem to be working on the engines at the same time.

So, I got the threaded couplers tapped and cut the thread of one so it can screw all the way into the other. Screwed into the bearing with a clear dome and tested it out. The bad news is that there seems to be a small (but noticeable) precession in the bearing - I tested all the ones I got from Electronic Goldmine and they all seem to have the same problem. Same thing if I use a screw directly into the bearing.





Any ideas?


----------



## jgoldsack

I also went ahead and got stuff needed to redo mine again using this method. I will post my progress once I have all my materials.

Another thought for the "spindle" connecting the spinner to the motor, why not use a 4-40 threaded rod? Can pick those up from most hobby stores, probably even Home Depot. Can get long enought to cut to size for both nacelles...

just a thought.


----------



## RossW

jgoldsack said:


> I also went ahead and got stuff needed to redo mine again using this method. I will post my progress once I have all my materials.
> 
> Another thought for the "spindle" connecting the spinner to the motor, why not use a 4-40 threaded rod? Can pick those up from most hobby stores, probably even Home Depot. Can get long enought to cut to size for both nacelles...
> 
> just a thought.


I've seen those, but then you would need two nuts to hold the dome to the rod. Not impossible but maybe not as clean as the button head screw.


----------



## Gregatron

RossW said:


> Gregatron - if you feel like I'm hijacking your thread then please just say so. I'm only posting here because of the thread history and we both seem to be working on the engines at the same time.


No worries, my friend! What benefits one benefits all! Working together, maybe we can get the best possible results.


----------



## RossW

RossW said:


> Gregatron - if you feel like I'm hijacking your thread then please just say so. I'm only posting here because of the thread history and we both seem to be working on the engines at the same time.
> 
> So, I got the threaded couplers tapped and cut the thread of one so it can screw all the way into the other. Screwed into the bearing with a clear dome and tested it out. The bad news is that there seems to be a small (but noticeable) precession in the bearing - I tested all the ones I got from Electronic Goldmine and they all seem to have the same problem. Same thing if I use a screw directly into the bearing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Any ideas?


These are the roller bearings I'm using (I think Hauser found them). All 4 I ordered have a slight recession/wobble in them, which is more pronounced the longer the screw. Any ideas of where to get higher quality ones? I've done some Googling but no joy.


----------



## jgoldsack

RossW said:


> These are the roller bearings I'm using (I think Hauser found them). All 4 I ordered have a slight recession/wobble in them, which is more pronounced the longer the screw. Any ideas of where to get higher quality ones? I've done some Googling but no joy.


old hard drives. I literally just picked up a box of about 50 from work that are dead, great for bearings.


----------



## RossW

jgoldsack said:


> old hard drives. I literally just picked up a box of about 50 from work that are dead, great for bearings.


Desktop (3.5") or laptop (2.5")? IDE?


----------



## jgoldsack

RossW said:


> Desktop (3.5") or laptop (2.5")? IDE?


desktop


----------



## RossW

I got an old Samsung IDE desktop drive and have disassembled it this far:



How do I pop out the bearing? And do you know what thread that would be? It's not 4-40


----------



## jgoldsack

RossW said:


> I got an old Samsung IDE desktop drive and have disassembled it this far:
> 
> 
> 
> How do I pop out the bearing? And do you know what thread that would be? It's not 4-40



You want the bearings from the actuator arms, not the ones from the disc platters. (#9 in image below)


----------



## RossW

Thanks jgoldsack. My IDE hard drive's insides look very similar, and I've extracted the actuator arm bearing:



But the inside of the bearing is smooth, not threaded. Was yours like that? What did you use in yours?


----------



## jgoldsack

RossW said:


> Thanks jgoldsack. My IDE hard drive's insides look very similar, and I've extracted the actuator arm bearing:
> 
> 
> 
> But the inside of the bearing is smooth, not threaded. Was yours like that? What did you use in yours?


I have about 15 that I have pulled out so far (still have another 10 or so to rip apart), most are 4-40 threaded inside, only 2 were smooth. Not all are the same of course. I didn't include all of them for brevity.. I got many duplicate types, so I have plenty to test with.


----------



## RossW

jgoldsack said:


> I have about 15 that I have pulled out so far (still have another 10 or so to rip apart), most are 4-40 threaded inside, only 2 were smooth. Not all are the same of course. I didn't include all of them for brevity.. I got many duplicate types, so I have plenty to test with.


Do you remember the details of the ones which had 4-40 threaded insides?


----------



## jgoldsack

RossW said:


> Do you remember the details of the ones which had 4-40 threaded insides?


Nope. the vast majority had them though. I had all sorts of drives from all sorts of manufacturers. I didn't really pay attention. Thought in hindsight I wish I did...


----------



## RossW

Bought 5 pairs of old 3.5" IDE HDs from a surplus shop. The first pair, Quantum Fireballs, were a bust - a smooth shafted bearing spinning on a post.

The other 4 pairs have torx case screws and I don't have a driver that small, so now I wait.


----------



## BARRYZ28

RossW said:


> Bought 5 pairs of old 3.5" IDE HDs from a surplus shop. The first pair, Quantum Fireballs, were a bust - a smooth shafted bearing spinning on a post.
> 
> The other 4 pairs have torx case screws and I don't have a driver that small, so now I wait.


Take the magnets out, they're awesome.


----------



## RossW

BARRYZ28 said:


> Take the magnets out, they're awesome.


Yup, got those.


----------



## RossW

RossW said:


> Bought 5 pairs of old 3.5" IDE HDs from a surplus shop. The first pair, Quantum Fireballs, were a bust - a smooth shafted bearing spinning on a post.
> 
> The other 4 pairs have torx case screws and I don't have a driver that small, so now I wait.


Good news, everyone! The other HDs were more successful, although IBM's thread isn't 4-40 and Maxtor's has a thread 'plug' in one end that won't come out (but appears to be threaded on the inside, but again not 4-40).

These are the 3 which had threaded bearings for the arm:







Just in case anyone else is crazy enough to do this too ...


----------



## Gregatron

Still struggling to achieve the Ultimate Quiet Nacelle. Man, this is a struggle for the ages! 

Perhaps the delays are meant to be, since more new info about the original model will be coming out, over the next few months. I should probably take Gary Kerr's advice and not rush this build, since the info will allow for an even more accurate model.

In the meantime, if anyone comes up with an easy solution for this nacelle nightmare, please let me know. I'll keep at it, otherwise!


----------



## Proper2

Gregatron said:


> Still struggling to achieve the Ultimate Quiet Nacelle. Man, this is a struggle for the ages!
> 
> Perhaps the delays are meant to be, since more new info about the original model will be coming out, over the next few months. I should probably take Gary Kerr's advice and not rush this build, since the info will allow for an even more accurate model.
> 
> In the meantime, if anyone comes up with an easy solution for this nacelle nightmare, please let me know. I'll keep at it, otherwise!


Why is a quiet nacelle so important?


----------



## Gregatron

Proper2 said:


> Why is a quiet nacelle so important?




A. Because noisy motors are distracting, clunky, and kinda destroy the scale illusion of a fictional starship.

B. Quieting the motors is a distinct modeling challenge, and I'm giving this build my all! No half-measures!


----------



## RossW

Gregatron said:


> Still struggling to achieve the Ultimate Quiet Nacelle. Man, this is a struggle for the ages!
> 
> Perhaps the delays are meant to be, since more new info about the original model will be coming out, over the next few months. I should probably take Gary Kerr's advice and not rush this build, since the info will allow for an even more accurate model.
> 
> In the meantime, if anyone comes up with an easy solution for this nacelle nightmare, please let me know. I'll keep at it, otherwise!


What have you got so far? That might help in offering suggestions. I'm drilling out a 1/2" hole in the piece that holds the motor to fit the bearing I have. Once that's done, I can connect the motor to the bearing with the silicone tube and the spinning dome to the bearing with some cut-down 2" 4-40 screws I got off eBay.

EDIT: Oh, and which motors are you using again?


----------



## Gregatron

RossW said:


> What have you got so far? That might help in offering suggestions. I'm drilling out a 1/2" hole in the piece that holds the motor to fit the bearing I have. Once that's done, I can connect the motor to the bearing with the silicone tube and the spinning dome to the bearing with some cut-down 2" 4-40 screws I got off eBay.
> 
> EDIT: Oh, and which motors are you using again?


Mostly just been fiddling with the setup I've been working with for awhile--the Sayama motors, with bearings in the stock motor housings, and silicone tubng connecting the bearing to the motor.


----------



## jgoldsack

I think the quiet part has less to do with the bearing and spinner, and more to do with insulating the sound from the motor itself. The bearings simply are used more to help have the spinners spin true and straight.

I do not believe there is a way to completely remove the sound.


----------



## Proper2

jgoldsack said:


> I do not believe there is a way to completely remove the sound.


No, there certainly isn't. I have an acrylic cover over my MR Enterprise display and it greatly diminishes the noise. In fact, it doesn't bother me at all. And your display is protected!


----------



## Gregatron

Proper2 said:


> No, there certainly isn't. I have an acrylic cover over my MR Enterprise display and it greatly diminishes the noise. In fact, it doesn't bother me at all. And your display is protected!



Speaking of which, I still haven't really had a chance to look into display cases. Any suggestion as to a good source for one?


----------



## Proper2

Gregatron said:


> Speaking of which, I still haven't really had a chance to look into display cases. Any suggestion as to a good source for one?


What area are you in? I made my own pedestal from mdf board and then had an acrylic cover custom made to exact specs by a local plastics company in the L.A. area. They charged me a couple hundred if I remember! Well worth it, I think, although honestly I wasn't very happy w/ the job they did: there are many fine scratches inside and out. But they cleverly covered it w/ a protective film and I couldn't see the scratches when I picked it up at the shop. I would have preferred a glass cover but that would weigh way too much and be very expensive.


----------



## RMC

I am about to start mine and I plan on using magnetic drive so the motor spins effortlessly,thus reducing drag on the mainshaft and eliminating the weight of the inner dome :dude:


----------



## RossW

RMC said:


> I am about to start mine and I plan on using magnetic drive so the motor spins effortlessly,thus reducing drag on the mainshaft and eliminating the weight of the inner dome :dude:


Can you please elaborate on what you mean by magnetic drive?


----------



## Trekkriffic

RossW said:


> Can you please elaborate on what you mean by magnetic drive?


Wasn't that the mode of propulsion for the C57D?


----------



## Gregatron

Okay. Since the nacelle motors are driving me nuts, I'm turning my focus back to the hangar lighting.

As you may recall, Line "Q" from the Round 2 lighting kit was burned out, or something. So, I got a replacement. I spent this evening splicing and soldering the wiring so as to replace the stock wires with magnet wire. However, the solder, liquid insulation, and dabs of hot glue used to hold everything together make the whole assembly too thick to get the hull halves to close properly.

I'm thinking I should just scrap the stock LEDs, and splice in some SMDs. Thoughts?

Also, I started wet-sanding the secondary hull and dorsal halves so that the window inserts are more flush to the hull. 


P.S.-- Sometimes ambition can be a curse. If I'd built this kit stock, with no concern for the engine effects, or omitted the hangar lighting, I'd have had this kit done a LONG time ago. But, no, I gotta be gettin' all fancy. 


She may not be done in time for the 50th anniversary, but this is a battle to the death, now. And I intend to win! At the very least, once I lock down the hangar lighting, I'll be much, much closer to actually building and sealing the secondary hull and dorsal, and can then focus on the nacelles and saucer.


----------



## RossW

Definitely go with SMDs. Jerry at HDA Model Worx (http://hdamodelworx.com/SMD-Lighting_c_31.html) has some pre-wired and those are what I used. Since my shuttle bay door will be closed, I carved out the sides to put in some LED tape.





The motors are tasking me, too. Still trying to work out the bearings and attachments.


----------



## Gregatron

Did some digging, and found some spare SMDs in my parts stash. I'll solder them up when I get a chance.


----------



## Gregatron

Successfully spliced in the SMDs. 

The hangar/fantail/spine lights are all pretty solid, now. About the only real issue is that the SMD illuminating the spine lights is WAY too bright. Gonna have to splice in a resistor or something to dim the intensity. Any thoughts or suggestions for alternative methods would be appreciated, as electronics and correctly calculating resistance are not my areas of expertise.


----------



## RossW

Did you use the SMDs with a series resistor, or did it come pre-wired? Mine had one set for a 12V source but I found they looked better at 9V source (in other words, less voltage applied across them so dimmer). To do that, try adding another series resistor of around 1k ohm and see how it looks. If it's still too bright, use a higher value. If it's now too dim, go lower.


----------



## ClubTepes

Gregatron said:


> A. Because noisy motors are distracting, clunky, and kinda destroy the scale illusion of a fictional starship.
> 
> B. Quieting the motors is a distinct modeling challenge, and I'm giving this build my all! No half-measures!


Easy solution.......


Turn the volume up when you play your TOS Trek sound tracks.


----------



## jgoldsack

ClubTepes said:


> Easy solution.......
> 
> 
> Turn the volume up when you play your TOS Trek sound tracks.


Another solution is to build a case for it that completely surrounds it.... and cuts down on the motor noise by large amounts (thicker the case, more sound dampening there is


----------



## Gregatron

jgoldsack said:


> Another solution is to build a case for it that completely surrounds it.... and cuts down on the motor noise by large amounts (thicker the case, more sound dampening there is


How did you build yours, anyway? Would building a case be easier/cheaper than having a pre-built one shipped to me?


----------



## jgoldsack

Gregatron said:


> How did you build yours, anyway? Would building a case be easier/cheaper than having a pre-built one shipped to me?


Mine is made of 1/8" Plexi, 36" x 16". Obviously need to adjust size based on how big your display is when you factor in thickness of the size pieces, etc (I didn't do that so had to trim my long pieces a bit).

I got my sheets from http://www.professionalplastics.com . I have used them before for other things, pretty quick, good prices, and I can pick up locally  All together for 3 16"x16" and 4 36"x16" pieces, it ran me about $55.

As far as making it goes, regular old glue won't cut it, need to use acrylic solvent, which will fuse the pieces together. Because it is a solvent, also have to be careful to ONLY get it where you want it because it will marr the plexi (learned this the hard way). Thicker sheets are easier to join than thin sheets, but also more $$$. The solvents ran about $20 together.

I used Weld-On 4, which is a water thin solvent, sets in 3 minutes, evaporates very quickly. Apply with a syringe applicator to the joint, and let it do its magic. It has to be smooth edges for the strongest seam, it doesn't fill gaps or rough edges at all.

if you do have rough edges (which I did from trimming my sides), you can use Weld-On 16, which is a much thicker solvent, but can fill in the imperfections. Again, only put it where you want it, as it will marr the plexi.

After my first seam, I learned that if I tape the edges from the outside, and glue the inside, it will not have any solvent leak out and cause problems. Also helps to hold the parts together, but I also used corner clamps and some old UPS batteries to hold the edges in place.

Take it slow, google some videos on how to do it, and order some extra pieces to practice on first.


----------



## Trekkriffic

I wonder how much a case that size would have run you if you'd had a place like TAP Plastics make it for you. I'll bet it would cost you a couple hundred bucks easy. Definitely saves to make it yourself. You did a nice job on yours j.


----------



## Gregatron

Well, I got some resistors, and spliced them in. I also snuck in another SMD, beneath the three spine lights. At last the lights are all pretty well-illuminated, and aren't overwhelmingly bright. A little more tweaking, and it should be good.

About the only lighting issue remaining with the hangar is getting some more light into the aftmost observation booths. They're barely lit, if at all. Still not sure how to properly tackle that.


----------



## Gregatron

I think I should now turn my attention to connecting the model to it's stand and power supply. As noted, many moons ago, I picked up a four-pin mini Jack to install in the bottom of the secondary hull. Just need to work out how to wire everything up so as to make the nacelle motor controlled by a switch, and to turn the main power on/off with a separate switch.

Also, I need to figure out what sort of TOS-appropriate push button/rocker/toggle switches I can find and incorporate into the base.


----------



## Gregatron

Minor update: After finally acquiring the proper size of brass rectangle-channel to place inside the nacelle pylons' wire channels (just for that extra bit of structural integrity--for my peace of mind, if nothing else, since the kit is so well-engineered), I glued the pylons together (after snaking two sets of wires through the channels, first).


----------



## Gregatron

...yeah, not gonna be done for the 50th anniversary. But, hey, all the new data that's come out regarding the 11-footer will make the delay worth it!


----------



## Hunk A Junk

Gregatron said:


> ...yeah, not gonna be done for the 50th anniversary. But, hey, all the new data that's come out regarding the 11-footer will make the delay worth it!


Well, the 50th anniversary is commonly held to mean the entire year, so you've got a little under four months to go! Get on it!


----------



## RossW

Gregatron said:


> ...yeah, not gonna be done for the 50th anniversary. But, hey, all the new data that's come out regarding the 11-footer will make the delay worth it!


Yeah, me neither.


----------



## JGG1701

Gregatron said:


> Well, I got some resistors, and spliced them in. I also snuck in another SMD, beneath the three spine lights. At last the lights are all pretty well-illuminated, and aren't overwhelmingly bright. A little more tweaking, and it should be good.
> 
> About the only lighting issue remaining with the hangar is getting some more light into the aftmost observation booths. They're barely lit, if at all. Still not sure how to properly tackle that.


Switches
-Jim G.G.


----------



## Gregatron

(Blows off dust)

...yeah, this was not done for the 50th anniversary.

I’ve been focusing on 1/1000 scale models for the past few years. My 1/350 build has been languishing. However, time has indeed passed, and my skillset has broadened since I stopped working on it. 

The main reason I stopped was because of those loud engine motors, and trying to figure out a way to minimize the noise. Well, it’s been a few years, so I’m starting to dip my toe back in the water. What’s changed? Have there been new aftermarket lighting kits issued with better motors and whatnot? My original plan was to use a combination of aftermarket motors with the stock Round 2 lighting kit, plus Ross W’s boards for the saucer and secondary hull navigation strobes. I may also start from scratch with the Bridge and hangar deck, since there are some new options for accurate and/or lighting-friendly parts on Shapeways, as well as HDA’s decals, based on the colors from the Smithsonian restoration and Gary Kerr’s research. I’d rather not have to buy the 50th anniversary edition of the kit just to get the upgraded Round 2 decals.

Has an all-in-one lighting kit been produced which has accurate strobe/nacelle dome lights timing (based on all of the new info gleaned from the 50th anniversary restoration of the 11-footer)? From TenaControls or TrekModeler, maybe? 

Whose lighting kit is currently the best and most accurate? Thanks!


----------



## JHauser

I’m surprised that you’re still having problems with motor noise. The solution I came up with and posted here, works quite well. I have just above a slight hum and no wobble. I believe Ross on this forum had good success with it also.


----------



## Gregatron

JHauser said:


> I’m surprised that you’re still having problems with motor noise. The solution I came up with and posted here, works quite well. I have just above a slight hum and no wobble. I believe Ross on this forum had good success with it also.


I need to review this thread and start from the ground up. I’ve had a lot more build experience in the years since I put this model on hiatus, and perhaps I’ll be able to rig up a good solution.


----------



## edge10

They aren't cheap, but Tena makes all kinds of options:





__





TOS NCC-1701 – TenaControls






tenacontrols.com


----------



## JHauser

After a lot of trial and error, I settled on a relatively simple and inexpensive solution for myself. I can post details for if you like. It require some fabrication, but not terribly too much. There are some purple flashes in the video that should be there.

P.S. The audio was retained in the videos to give you an idea of the level the noise. My phone was probably about two foot away.



http://imgur.com/d6LZwjm




http://imgur.com/Psj26w6

]



http://imgur.com/5L2AO3x


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## RossW

I don’t know about anyone else, but Im always keen to see other modellers’ solutions.


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## Trekkriffic

WowSa! Now that’s about as quiet as it gets.


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## Gregatron

Pulled the incomplete model out of storage and began going through the parts to recall where I left off. On the one hand, it might be better to just get a new kit and start from scratch using the skills I’ve sharpened over the past few years. On the other hand, I already did a heck of a lot of prep work on the kit, and the minor issues and errors can be pretty easily corrected.

in regards to the lighting, I decided to start from the ground up, and ordered Tenacontrols’ kit (nacelle motors, boards, blinkers) along with Paragrafix’s (for the window lights).

Need to start reviewing others’ solutions for decoupling the motors. I think enough time has passed that my skillset should be able to crack this. The nacelle motors and the secondary hull/hangar lighting were the two things holding me back, when I drifted away from this build. Simplifying the electronics with the new lighting kits (as opposed to the Frankenstein’s monster of the Round 2 kit, aftermarket motors, and RossW’s boards that I was previously working with) should help quite a bit, I think.


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## RossW

Gregatron said:


> ... Simplifying the electronics with the new lighting kits (as opposed to the Frankenstein’s monster of the Round 2 kit, aftermarket motors, and RossW’s boards that I was previously working with) should help quite a bit, I think.


Aw, nuts ...


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## Gregatron

RossW said:


> Aw, nuts ...


A matter of space efficiency, my friend. Nothing personal. The way I was going, I had the Round 2 board and TWO of yours, for the navigation blinkers. That’s three whole boards jammed into the model, and a lot of tangled wires.

I’d be happy to go with your current setup, but Arduino programming and whatnot is a bit beyond my skillset, to say nothing of the time and effort of acquiring/manufacturing and assembling all of the parts.


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## RossW

I get it. I just get a kick out of other modellers using my stuff, is all.


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## Gregatron

RossW said:


> I get it. I just get a kick out of other modellers using my stuff, is all.


Worry not. If I ever get around to doing a 1/350 second pilot version, those boards will work nicely.


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