# the evolution of battires



## chopper8984 (Apr 24, 2007)

With the new lipos coming into the picture how long do u think it will be tell most of the classes will be running lipos? I ask the question because I’ve been thinking about starting a matching company. But with the lipos come into the market place it seems like it could be a risk. I know that for at least the next 2 years there will be a place for nmhi but how big of a place I don’t know. From what I have read ARCOR is starting a class in Oct that will run lipos. Another question I bring up is when the lipos finally take over the cost of racing is going to up. For a person that want a good matched pack today it cost anywhere from $60 to $100 bucks. but when lipos take over I see the price of a good race pack possibly getting into the $200 range or if they don’t and keep them cheap I see pros and full time driver buying 20 packs at a time and running everyone to see what packs are best. Leavening the ppl with the most money a major advantage (of course that’s true today for the most part except in stock racing) I guess what the real question is what the lipo is going to do to our hobby


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## Ralf (Oct 19, 2001)

The beauty of the lipos is that you will only need one, two packs max. Friends who fly electrics have been using them for years, land, recharge, and take off again. So instead of 3-5 packs that have to be replaced every 2-3 months, one battery for a year or two, actually MUCH, MUCH, cheaper than the Nim's we now use. I think though that it will be years before you get eveyone to change over, you know how some people resist change, it took the flyers a while before they all saw the benifits and some still use the old batts. Ralf


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## ReasonableDoubt (May 17, 2004)

It's all maunufacturer Driven......it's all that TRAXXAS BULLSHIT......the manufacturers will be the death of this sport..
Looking through Magazine's it's hard to find anything competetive.....it's all bashing stuff which is great......but like G.I. Joe's when we were little for christmas.....played with it for 15 minutes...and there it goes never to be thought of again......
The racers are the people spending the big bucks.......
The racers are what keep this sport alive.......
The manufacturerers need to keep that in mind.........
Just my .02


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## ta_man (Apr 10, 2005)

ReasonableDoubt said:


> It's all maunufacturer Driven......it's all that TRAXXAS BULLSHIT......the manufacturers will be the death of this sport..
> Looking through Magazine's it's hard to find anything competetive.....it's all bashing stuff which is great......but like G.I. Joe's when we were little for christmas.....played with it for 15 minutes...and there it goes never to be thought of again......
> The racers are the people spending the big bucks.......
> The racers are what keep this sport alive.......
> ...


Racers may be the people who individually spend big bucks but the proportion of racers to bashers is so small that when you multiply it out, the [bashers times basher dollars spent] is much larger than [racers times racer big bucks spent].

A friend of mine is a mechanic and at two different dealerships he has worked at so far (since I have known him) he said there were quite a number of other mechanics who had RC cars to bash but would neover think of racing. That is why Traxxas sells so much stuff.


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## mredzadventure (Feb 27, 2006)

You don't have to look very far to which way the "Trend Winds" are blowing. Traxxas took out a 20 full page add in RC Car Action. How much was that? Look at all the adds in the mags. Bashing is selling. That is what manufactures are promoting. If racing was more popular, Associated and Team Losi, would have 20 page adds. The bottom line of any company is to sell what the people want whether they make motors, batteries, engines, RC cars or components. Everybody is expanding into different areas of business. When I started almost 20 years ago in this hobby, had you told me there would be 15 to 20 different RC manufactures to choose from, that more or less make quality equipment, and Traxxas would be on the top, I would have said your nuts.
Racing is big bucks, too many big bucks. It is a vital part of the hobby. I believe a lot of our new whiz bang stuff comes off of the race track. However it is getting too pricey, tires, batteries,motors,hop ups, the list is endless. The cool thing now is there is something for everybody. If you and your buddies want to rock climb with your trucks you can. If you want to race carpet road course or oval it's there. Clay oval,paved oval, drag racing the possibilities are as endless as are the parts to support them. Right now bashing in the gravel pits or back yard is on top, but the thing about the "trend winds" are they never settle for long. I'm sure something new is just on the horizon. :thumbsup:


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## TOME57 (Sep 27, 2001)

If RC cars are like motocross motorcycles, probably 95% or more never see a track. Bashers do make up the majority and most are off road followed by on road. Oval cars are really race specific. You never read a post about someone bashing with their HyperDrive 0700.

Also, there really is no RTR Oval car. The car,ESC,radio,motor,tires,body,etc are all combined by the end user. Most Oval accessories aren't even mass produced by the "big" companies, but usually by enthusiasts who try to lower their own cost to race, as well as providing custom parts for fellow racers. This is a niche market which is not serviced by the "big" companies.


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## gezer2u (Sep 25, 2001)

I bet by the end of '08 all most everyone will be running lipo. ROAR will allow Lipo's in '08. As more and more people run them, and more people see how simple they are they will switch over. It will be a snowball effect just like when a new NiMh comes out. It is a simple switch for everybody except oval. All other forms of racing is 6 cell, so it would be just a mater of buy a new battery. As in ONE battery, not FOUR batteries. The cost is way cheaper. You can get a great charger for $69.99 to charge with. Check out the test that was done with a lipo and a prototype motor from Novak. Novak see's the need for a motor to run in stock with lipo's. That should tell you something. every board that you go to you see threads about Lipos and the positive from people who have ran them. There isn't a downside to lipos as long as you follow proper charging methods as with any battery.


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## SuperXRAY (Jul 10, 2002)

That's funny, ReasonableDoubt, but I really don't see how you can fault Traxxas or call their stuff the name you did. Traxxas was once, and is now again, a major top-of-the-line competitor. Traxxas was there with Associated in the beginning, winning all kinds of races. Now, traxxas is winning all kinds of races with the Revo and T-Maxx (yes, still). Perhaps one could say that monster trucks are for those who can't drive, but that's just simply not true, as I've raced side-by-side with some big names that DO race monster trucks, and it is an ever growing class.

And, btw, running consistent 3.1 laps doesn't mean anything unless you put some more digits after that decimal.  An 80 lap oval race at 3.100 sec/lap is ~248 seconds, whereas an 80 lap oval race at 3.15 sec/lap is 252 seconds...that's over a lap difference and can be 3-4 mains (A Main to D Main) difference in placement.


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## ReasonableDoubt (May 17, 2004)

SuperXRAY said:


> That's funny, ReasonableDoubt, but I really don't see how you can fault Traxxas or call their stuff the name you did. Traxxas was once, and is now again, a major top-of-the-line competitor. Traxxas was there with Associated in the beginning, winning all kinds of races. Now, traxxas is winning all kinds of races with the Revo and T-Maxx (yes, still). Perhaps one could say that monster trucks are for those who can't drive, but that's just simply not true, as I've raced side-by-side with some big names that DO race monster trucks, and it is an ever growing class.
> 
> And, btw, running consistent 3.1 laps doesn't mean anything unless you put some more digits after that decimal.  An 80 lap oval race at 3.100 sec/lap is ~248 seconds, whereas an 80 lap oval race at 3.15 sec/lap is 252 seconds...that's over a lap difference and can be 3-4 mains (A Main to D Main) difference in placement.


I look in magazine's and see Traxxas ads...and i see plastic parts......i feel like it's the equivalent of tamiya....I think that Traxxas is a great way to have people enter the sport of R/c and hopefully, eventually moving on to racing....but being a racer myself..never previously being a basher.....It frustrates me to look in R/C car action or other magazines to find nothing but traxxas ads and nitro coverage...yes....they do pay for it...and yes if i raced nitro i would love it...but it harldy seems elctric racing, especially oval racing gets the recognition it deserves....I went to Borders recently and was going to subscribe to their magazine but after browsing through it...it was mostly nitro......the reviews, the race coverage....maybe I'm just ignorant to where I can find good electric coverage, good oval coverage, and places to buy competetion offroad equipment....

and btw our local track prints out lap times to the nearest tenth so i'm not sure how consistent they are down to hundreths and thousandths....and i do realize that it does make a difference....I believe the snowbirds 4300 B/L "A" main 1st and second place were only separated by 30 thousandths of a second....and I know I'm not the best racer, I'm not saying that....But according to the laptime printouts I get....I'm a consistent driver....


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## gezer2u (Sep 25, 2001)

Man, I haven't even looked at any of the mags in years! Once you have been racing for awhile there isn't anything to look at. If I want to know what's new or how to do something, I get on a forum and find out. Magazines are for killing time not real info. They just give the shortest version so they can sell advertising. Nothing wrong with that. I'm not just talking RC mags, but other types as well. It is too bad that we don't have a newspaper or mag that is devoted to RC racing. Back in the day there was a newspaper that covered RC racing. I can't remember the name. Bottom line is the manufacturers are the ones who sort'a control content.


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## ReasonableDoubt (May 17, 2004)

back to what i said previously....a new racer, or a new basher would most likely find out about this hobby by....a friend, ,a local hobby shop/track, or the magazines...if you were to buy what the magazines are telling you to buy.......and then decided to show up at the track. you would more than likely need to go out and buy a new car......maybe not so much nowadays but my pops bought a tamiya hornet years back....went to the track got crushed.....and then bought an rc10....


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## nate00 (Jan 14, 2007)

theres no reason to be talkin crap about tamiya stuff, in my eyes they are the most indistructable r/c cars on the market! i own 2 hornets, a frog, blackfoot, mad fighter, tl-01, and many others, just because they are all plastic and pasic doesnt mean they are chincy and are gonna break NO SIR! i love 'em and i race my SK and dirt oval car all the time but its still fun to go out and bash with your buddies with an old tamiya!


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## SuperXRAY (Jul 10, 2002)

ReasonableDoubt,

I hear ya...  Just wanted to point the lap thing out and what Traxxas used to be/still is whether they realize it or not. I don't get R/C magazines anymore for the reasons you've pointed out. In fact, I hate getting ANY magazines, except for my woodworking stuff, as advertisements have taken over most of the industries. Usually those companies that advertise a bunch are the ones with the lesser quality product. I'd much rather spend $1,000,000 in development of a product than $5,000,000 in advertisement for the product that has serious issues.


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## McLin (Dec 5, 2001)

Chopper8984, Let’s analyze what you said a little bit. I got two very good 4200 NiMA packs for the Oval Masters last November. Since then, the 4400 and now the 4600’s are out. Using your low price of $60 for even figuring; that would be $360 for only two of the latest packs, just to keep up. True the organizations have not legalized the newer packs yet but sanctioned events make up a very small percentage of the weekly races that allow anything.As I have stated numerous times, LiPo batteries are going to take a whole new way of thinking. Those that will go out and buy a dozen of them to try to find the “cream of the crop” are; One – foolish, because there is not much of an advantage to be looking for and Two; those are the people that will buy that many or more NiMH packs to do the same thing so what would be different?. And paying $200 for a “matched” pack of LiPo’s is pretty much out of the question. Even IF someone figures out a way to screw these things up and start matching them, there are only 3 cells in a 7.4 volt pack, how long could it take to match a pack?

If you have read any of my post in the Oval section, you know that I have only dealt with two packs so far in my testing but they are closer to identical as any VERY good matched NiMH packs that I have ever had and the two I have came right off the shelf, nothing special. Plus, LiPo packs cannot be “cycled” so how is anyone going to go thru a bunch to find the best ones? But like I said, give us time, we will find a way to screw all this up.

If you are thinking in the “next two years” for the LiPo’s to take control you are probably close to being right. It will take that long for them to be the dominant force but the descending curve of NIMH batteries is going to be steep and I would bet by this time next year, they will be as prevalent as brushless motors are now but growing even faster. Don’t look at these things as back yard basher batteries; they are “serious” race packs. At a charged voltage of over 8.3 volts, they make a 4300 brushless run like an 8 turn with 4 cells!

As for a matching business, I think I would give that some more thought.


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## dave w 1 (Apr 28, 2005)

Dont Do It Bad Investment .02


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## garyrcdoc (Oct 15, 2005)

I have to agree that NiMH are not going to sell as strongly in the future as lipo takes over racing. I also think the price of LiPOs will DECREASE, NOT increase. As an increasing number of manufacterers enter the market, the competition should drive the prices down. 

For example, max-amps sell their 6000 maH lipos for $89. This represents a DECREASE in price per milliamp over time. I bought the $150 and the $99 dollar peak 4800 and 3200 mah (respectively), but as more people buy from their competitors, then the price will definitely decrease.

From thetime our club saw it's first lipo to the latest race when 80% of the racers are using lipo in the 19t/4300 brushless class, was only 4-5 months. Lipo's have taken over at our track. It's been nothing but good for us.

Brushless have also taken over to a large extent. Both of these innovations are wonderful and are going to become cheaper (as evidenced by new companies getting into brushless and, for example, the new, lower priced LRP brushless ESCs coming onto the market. Novak and others will follow suit as the market is simply driven that way by the competition).

P.S. I forgot to mention that I also use ONLY ONE max-amp 6000 mah for all three classes I use during race night (st buggy, st truck, and 19t 4wd) and simply charge it at 6 amps between races. I rid myself of 4 3800 matched cell packs and the trade was the best thing I've done - besides brushless...)

gary


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