# USS George Washington



## Robert Hargrave

I've come to the conclussion I just loose intrest when building kits everyone else has in their collection, But find great enjoyment building that one of a kind project, so I have boxed up my snow speeder and turned my intrest to a kitbash type project, welcome to the USS George Washington Ballistic Missile Submarine. I started this model by searching the internet for photos and drawings, of the Polaris type ballistic missile submarines, using these references I worked up some drawings of the basic layout of the boat, this is my rough interior layout but the finished project will not be this detailed.

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/4922/sub1oi.jpg

I have a Revell 1/200 scale “Thomas Jefferson Ballistic Submarine” kit on hand, but very quickly found I would require a second kit, to make modifications and for spare parts to complete this build. The main building requirement was to keep most of the main interior bulkheads in their original positions, this would allow me to use most of the kit decks for the interior and reduce the number of items needed to be scratch built. Most of the changes will be just trying to improve the deck layout and look of the interior of the boat. After painting the exterior in several places over spray got through the masked areas and messed up the interior paint job, but a light application to the interoir will fix that. Getting started I removed all the cast on detail from the interior of the hull and main bulkheads “with the exception of the Torpedo Room forward bulkhead, I have plans for that”. I used a Dremmel tool with a round metal grinding head, to cut away all the cast on details and bulkhead guides I did not want, I used 360 grit sandpaper to smooth out the rough areas before applying filler putty to smooth it all out. I cut away the sail from the other half of the hull and cemented the two sections together “The detail inside the sail is very limited so I decided not to show it”. This is how she looks after assembling the main hull pieces, filling and smooth out any joint lines and painting the exterior and interior bulkheads. 

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/2118/sub2h.jpg
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/8647/sub3b.jpg


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## Cappy D

Sounds like a really cool project; I look forward to the build as I did your Jupiter 2.
This posting piqued my interest as I have unbuilt one of the original issues of the Revell George Washington (with fewer missile tubes than the actual boat).

Cappy D


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## djnick66

The 1/200 kit is not a George Washington class sub despite the name on the box. Its a repop of the old Renwal USS Andrew Jackson. Renwal and Revell both have sold it under different (and inaccurate) names.

Revell had their own cut away GW albeit in a smaller scale.


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## Roy Kirchoff

Robert, you have a PM. :wave:

RK


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## Robert Hargrave

djnick66 said:


> The 1/200 kit is not a George Washington class sub despite the name on the box. Its a repop of the old Renwal USS Andrew Jackson. Renwal and Revell both have sold it under different (and inaccurate) names.


All your points are true, but without a better shell to build my interior in, and being the First President sounded like a good choice of a name for my boat. I have both the Renwal "George Washington" which the hump on top of the boat curves down to meet the hull just in front of the sail. And the Revell "Andrew Jackson" on this boat the hump is slightly angled and flows out and meets the hull at the nose of the boat. May not be a GW class boat, but is the closest thing I have to model one with :thumbsup:


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## Robert Hargrave

Cappy D said:


> Sounds like a really cool project; I look forward to the build as I did your Jupiter 2.
> This posting piqued my interest as I have unbuilt one of the original issues of the Revell George Washington (with fewer missile tubes than the actual boat).
> 
> Cappy D


Thanks for the confidence vote, now here is hoping my grand ideas and build turns out half as good as my drawing.


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## djnick66

Both the Revell and the Renwal kits suffer mostly from being very old and also representing something both brand new and also top secret. Its not like either company was able to go down to Groton and measure a real sub. Both kits, Revell's in particular, were done using available published material and a lot of guess work.

You can make them into really nice, fun model kits. I wish I had another 1/200 Revell/Renwal sub. Revell Germany reissued it about 7 years ago and I passed on it... I really want one bad now!


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## Steve244

Robert! we may be twins. I've got 3 or 4 of these in my stash. Including an original Renwal Ethan Allen (I think they're all Ethan Allen class). My plan is to light the interior with fiberoptics and overhead fluorescents. Maybe redo the reactor and light it with a UV LED (cut-away of course).

Next to Johan's Chrysler Turbine this was my favorite kit to mess up as a kid.

Are you going to arm the missile?

I'll be watching this carefully: I plan on starting mine in 10 or 15 years...

here's a reference site I found about 5 years ago...

here's more (most of the links from that first site are dead).

This page of the Thomas Edison has some nice interior pictures (still Ethan Allen class).


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## Robert Hargrave

Steve244 said:


> Robert! we may be twins. I've got 3 or 4 of these in my stash. Including an original Renwal Ethan Allen (I think they're all Ethan Allen class).Are you going to arm the missile?.


Unfortunately the NRC turned dowm my licence request to purchase a small amount of material to arm my 16 missiles So looks like my boat will be firing blanks.


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## Roy Kirchoff

Robert, here's a link to a simple cutaway drawing that's fairly accurate. It's about half way down the page.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/08598.htm

RK

This is my third edit to get rid of the RED X and the tiny "perigrine falcon eyesight" thumbnail. :freak:

Edit #4: Let's see if this link works better......
http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/0859806.jpg

It's ALIVE........... :drunk:


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## djnick66

Yeah the Renwal kit is an Ethan Allan class while Revells is more or less a George Washington. It gets confusing sometimes since Revell owns the Renwal tooling and has issued both kits over the years.


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## Steve244

ahhh, I had no idea.

Here's George.









I'm not sure Revell did a better job than Renwal, maybe on the greeblees inside, but the profile still looks like Ethan Allen (missing a bunch of missile tubes in either case).

This is as far as I've gotten:









Here's Ethan:









The real George was pretty homely:









Here's an interesting picture. If the Navy couldn't get the profile right, how could they expect Revell?:










Here's an interesting paint scheme...

this bas relief gives some idea of the actual pressure hull on one of these things. This is from the later Lafayette class but I bet it has a lot in common with Ethan Allen and GW.


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## Vindi

WOW!!!

I remember those cut-away models. I had one with the spring-loaded ballistic missile that fired. It had a clear side that hinged on the base to close up the sub, iirc. The second one I bought didn't have the firing missile due the 'dangerous' nature of the firing (someone might want to see what it looked like coming out of the tube from the top view and end up with a tiny ICBM in the eye-ball!!!). 

Unfortunately I was about 10-11 at the time and was more interested in building them than detailing them.

I might have one than is un-built somewhere. Next time I'm at my folks I'll look around for it.

Vindi


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## djnick66

Both the Revell and Renwal kits have been sold in different forms. The Revell kit originally came with a solid hull side that could be removed, although most issues have a glue - on side with holes cut in it to show off the interior. The Revell kit had working missiles in the first couple of tubes, although that feature was dropped later on (all you needed to do was add springs yourself).

The Renwal kit had a hinged, opaque hull side to show off the interior, but the kits were also sold with a clear plastic side. 

Renwal's kit came with crew figures and was larger. Revell's kit was a bit more accurate (for guess work) inside, but lacked figures. It did come with a lot of decals for the interior. The kits came in various colors of plastic also, depending on which issue you got. I have seen the Revell kit in grey and light "hospital green" and also just all grey.


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## Steve244

Robert Hargrave said:


> I've come to the conclussion I just loose intrest when building kits everyone else has in their collection, But find great enjoyment building that one of a kind project, so I have boxed up my snow speeder and turned my intrest to a kitbash type project, welcome to the USS George Washington Ballistic Missile Submarine. I started this model by searching the internet for photos and drawings, of the Polaris type ballistic missile submarines, using these references I worked up some drawings of the basic layout of the boat, this is my rough interior layout but the finished project will not be this detailed.
> 
> http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/4922/sub1oi.jpg


hmmm after perusal of your drawing I see where you've hit on reality.

Hope my having this in my stash hasn't ruined it for you. If it makes you feel better they'll probably remain there until my estate sale. :drunk:


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## Roy Kirchoff

Steve244 said:


> The real George was pretty homely:


 
You have to remember that the GW was basically a Skipjack class fast attack that was cut in half with the missile compartment added in the middle.



RK


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## Robert Hargrave

Steve244 said:


> hmmm after perusal of your drawing I see where you've hit on reality.
> 
> Hope my having this in my stash hasn't ruined it for you. If it makes you feel better they'll probably remain there until my estate sale. :drunk:


Ode to Dr. Smith.
"Oh the humanity of it all, another Quest Quashed by a Quadrupled set of submarines, oh my delicate back, curse you Steve244"......


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## scotpens

Roy Kirchoff said:


> Robert, here's a link to a simple cutaway drawing that's fairly accurate.
> 
> http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/tn/0859806.gif


You've posted a link to a tiny thumbnail which would be useful to anyone with the eyesight of a peregrine falcon. Here's the full-size drawing:


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## steve123

Robert; You are doing an excellent job. I have always loved the looks of the pre-Ohio SSBNs..Have fun with your build! I can't wait to see more pics!

Steve


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## Roy Kirchoff

scotpens said:


> You've posted a link to a tiny thumbnail which would be useful to anyone with the eyesight of a peregrine falcon. Here's the full-size drawing:


You're getting the same red x i was getting. There must be something about that navsource dot org page.


RK


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## Robert Hargrave

Hi guys, no I haven't taken another break just a wealth of information has been dropped at my doorstep on the GW, and all my designs have gone to the shreader and new drawings and compartment layouts are coming very soon. So far nothing effects the basic hull layout I've already worked up with te exception of one item. The forward escape hatch is getting moved and all escape hatches are going to get a make over, while I'm working on the new plans I keep playing with small tasks like modifying the torpedo racks, enclosing the Reactor vessel and Pressurizer, and I keep finding lots of photos of submarine equipment, like punps A/C units and power generators to use as guides for the equipment on board the GW. Hope to have a new post early next week.


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## scotpens

Steve244 said:


> . . . The real George was pretty homely.


But he was tall!


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## Robert Hargrave

scotpens said:


> But he was tall!


But if you flip the photo on it's side he has the basic submarine shape with his head as the bow.


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## Robert Hargrave

*New compartment layout*

I've got the new forward compartment layout almost done, the Torpedo Room, Level 1 and Level 2. So before anyone looks at the design I'll Point out the following mistakes. First I am working from notes, general descriptions of compartment placement, rough sketches and a few photos. Second all compartments are flipped Port to Starboard Why? For a better overall model when viewed, if I had left the compartments in their correct location when you looked into the model you'd see the Kitchen, Reefer and Freezer but not the Mess area. The model will be full of sleeping quarters and no one needs to see another one so by flipping the compartments you see the Missile Firing Room instead of the Quatermasters Quarters. On Level 1 the Officers Head is in the wrong location, but I ran out of room moving towards the bow, and there are only 5 Officers Quarters instead of 6 again space limits. If you can over look all of those it is still going to be a far better kit than the original.

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/2505/sub2a.png


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## Steve244

What about the "sick bay"? What about the "brig"?!

Also for the months underwater did they have some kind of exercise room or did they just run around the missile room?

Don't we have any ex-boomers here?


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## Robert Hargrave

Steve244 said:


> What about the "sick bay"? What about the "brig"?! Don't we have any ex-boomers here?


As for a brig, I don't know, maybe they just sent them to their bunk without dinner. But the Sick Bay I'm told is in the center level of the Missile Room and looking aft would be on the right side of the boat, so hidden behind the missile silos or AKA Sherwood Forrest.


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## steve123

No Brigs in the Submarine Service if somebody really went nuts they would be restrained in the sickbay, or, in their bunk.

That's like asking where do they put prisoners in a B52...lol

I'm looking through all my books, and I only have two about US Navy nuc boats and they are both mainly about SSNs...


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## Roy Kirchoff

Robert Hargrave said:


> I've got the new forward compartment layout almost done, the Torpedo Room, Level 1 and Level 2. So before anyone looks at the design I'll Point out the following mistakes. First I am working from notes, general descriptions of compartment placement, rough sketches and a few photos. Second all compartments are flipped Port to Starboard Why? For a better overall model when viewed, if I had left the compartments in their correct location when you looked into the model you'd see the Kitchen, Reefer and Freezer but not the Mess area. The model will be full of sleeping quarters and no one needs to see another one so by flipping the compartments you see the Missile Firing Room instead of the Quatermasters Quarters. On Level 1 the Officers Head is in the wrong location, but I ran out of room moving towards the bow, and there are only 5 Officers Quarters instead of 6 again space limits. If you can over look all of those it is still going to be a far better kit than the original.
> 
> http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/2505/sub2a.png


Everything looks real good on your layout Robert. Good idea flipping everything opposite. You're right, it will make a better looking model. :wave:

RK


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## Robert Hargrave

Steve244 said:


> Don't we have any ex-boomers here?


After clearing it with the person offering me this wealth of submarine information, Steve we do have a resident ex-boomer say hello to Roy Kirchoff 4 years on board good ol George Washington, and a HUGE help in the design of this model project.


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## Steve244

Hi Roy! :wave:

Sorry about the George comment. I meant to say she's a jolly old gal!


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## Roy Kirchoff

Well compared to a Lafayette class I guess she was a bit homely. :dude: 

RK


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## Steve244

Roy Kirchoff said:


> Well compared to a Lafayette class I guess she was a bit homely. :dude:
> 
> RK


Hey Roy, something I always wondered since I was a tot making glue bombs out of Ethan: Is the sail part of the pressure hull? I mean do people enter that area when it's submerged? I suspect it's dry, but pressurized. If not pressurized, does the area serve any purpose (other than hydro-dynamic) when submerged? Did they have poker games up there? Watch sea monsters through the windows?










Not that this has anything to do with George, I just thought it's cool:


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## Roy Kirchoff

Steve, 
No, the sail was not part of the pressure hull. It was a free flooding area that served, as you put it, strictly a hydro-dynamic purpose. The water tight hatch up to the sail was just to the right of the dive station. The fairwater planes located on the sail assisted during diving.
We weren't allowed to play poker, but we had some high stakes cribbage games.

~RK~


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## Steve244

gee thanks. there goes another childhood fantasy.

How about the shark tank?

Next you'll tell me Barbara Eden never table danced for you.

Doesn't it seem kinda ghoulish to have George's dismembered head planted in a garden surrounded by nice shrubbery?


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## Roy Kirchoff

You should have seen the way the dismembered head looked after it banged into the Nissho Maru. :freak: OUCH! 

~RK~


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## Steve244

I remember the Ehime Maru from '01 but didn't know George had a similar accident.


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## Robert Hargrave

*Real GW floor plans*

Working with Roy's description and notes I started to wonder if a closer to true layout of the boat could be placed into the Revell kit body. Here are a couple of test drawings done to scale, These were just for fun and a what if project. Also thought some of you might be intrested in them while I'm waiting for more feed back from Roy. PS not a 100% true layput of the floor plans but very close, the 2nd level galley area is still under construction.

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/287/gw1a.png
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/4079/gw1b.png


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## Roy Kirchoff

Steve244 said:


> I remember the Ehime Maru from '01 but didn't know George had a similar accident.


http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...7ISAAAAIBAJ&sjid=WPkDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4689,2892645

~RK~


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## Robert Hargrave

*George looses his head*

At the very start of this project I wanted to make as few changes to the hull as possible. I did cut away a lot of the junk cast on piping and stuff on the inner hull, I removed one set of bulkhead guides in the rear of the boat and two small sets in the forward section. Then cleaned it all up and painted the hull, but now after working on all these drawings, and looking over photos of the real GW and some Ethan Allen class boats things just didn't look right. This morning I started comparing measurements of the Revell kit and my Skipjack sub model, and that's when I saw part of the problem. The George Washington is a Skipjack attack boat, the Navy wanted a missile sub but didn't want to wait for years in development so Admiral Rickover took a Skipjack sub "Scorpion" under construction and had it split apart just behind the sail and a tube of 16 missile silos inserted. This sub would still have the Skipjack style sail, so tonight George looses his head / sail and after some cutting and tweeking I hope to replace it, only now it will be 12 to 14 feet less of it pointed towards the bow. The diving planes have to be removed and lowered and last while I'm at it might as well remove the set of bulkhead guides aft of the forward torpedo bulkhead, since the torpedo room is getting extended to hold a second row of torpedo racks. While I'm playing around with the sail may as well make the hump along the ol boys back look more like it should, going to need a new tube of bondo.....


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## Roy Kirchoff

I guess I opened up a bigger can o' worms than expected. :tongue: 

~RK~


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## Steve244

obviously neither of you attended the Irwin Allen school of sub design.

Mine's going to have a shark tank.

Was George one of the boomers that got converted after SALT to be a special ops platform for the SEALs?

(sekret plans for arming polaris. shhhh.)


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## Roy Kirchoff

Not the GW. 

One was the Kamehameha SSBN 642, another was the James K. Polk SSBN 645.

~RK~


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## Robert Hargrave

*Ol George isn't quite himself*

The sail came off pretty easy, and cutting away about 11 feet out of the center of it also went smoothly. I cut away the bulkhead alignment guides without to much damage to the hull.

Anyone need a headless horseman for holloween?

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/5164/001gm.jpg


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## Steve244

Robert Hargrave said:


> The sail came off pretty easy, and cutting away about 11 feet out of the center of it also went smoothly. I cut away the bulkhead alignment guides without to much damage to the hull.
> 
> Anyone need a headless horseman for holloween?
> 
> http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/5164/001gm.jpg


A diorama with shrubberies would set it off nicely.

I wonder how the citizens of Arco feel about honoring the number of the beast in their park?


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## Robert Hargrave

*Drawing forward compartments*

The drawings of the compartments forward of the Missile Room are done, using Roy's notes and descriptions, and trying to push as much of the real boat into this shell, here is a side view of what the George Washington looked like inside. The crew berth area is short a row or two of bunks and the officers quarters are rotated 90 degrees. 

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/2577/gw1.png


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## Steve244

More trivia (it's slow at work today). Older subs had a conning tower that was dry and housed the periscopes and torpedo controls. This was above the control room. I had no idea: I thought the control room was where they peered through the periscope and yelled, "Fire one!" in all those movies. Nuclear subs have long periscopes that reached down into the control room proper, no longer requiring a "conning tower." So that became the "sail" and is free-flooding as Roy informed me. 

Here's a cut-away of a gato class.


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## Robert Hargrave

*Work on the shell continues*

Between working on the scale interior drawings for the GW I do manage to get a little work done on the hull, here the filler piece of .040 styrene has been cut and shaped, and sits in place with the first coat of putty, the sail is just sitting there to show its new shape.

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/7866/sub5.jpg

Here is the first draf of the Missile / Reactor section of the boat, using the kit supplied parts for the reactor I've cut down the length reactor and added control rods sticking out the top of the vessle. This is where I'm at today.
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/2669/missilerm.png


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## Robert Hargrave

*Last two rear drawings*

Here is the last two sections of the boat now drawn up, the Missile Room, Aux Machine Room 1, Reactor Room, Aux Machine Room 2 and Engine Room.
Finish up the over head views and I'll be off to more building.
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/2669/missilerm.png
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/9822/aux2.png


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## Steve244

Wouldn't the control rods be part of (inside) the pressure vessel itself? (Not that I know, but it seems a good idea.)

edit: seems like they are, but extensions protrude above the reactor, maybe allowing manual shut down or just visual inspection of their positions?


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## Robert Hargrave

*Reactor control rods*

Steve you may be correct, I just drew them that way it looked good to me, was not working from any known design. By the way love that drawing you used.


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## Robert Hargrave

*New GW interior side view*

Working with Roy, using his descriptions and drawings as my guide here is the new interior side view of the George Washington and what I hope to fill the interior of my sub with. I have 3 more sections of overhead deck views to work up and the design stage is complete, then it's on to building many, many many scratch built compartments.

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/6951/gwside.jpg


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## Robert Hargrave

*GW Birds eye views*

This is the 1st and 2nd level overhead views of the forward compartments, in the Officers Quarters the bunks have been moved from the outer bulkhead to make viewing the interior better. On level 2 the Galley and Scullery are laid out correctly but room size can be off.
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/287/gw1a.png

Next you have level 3 the Crew Berths and Head and laundry area with 2 washers and dryers. The next section is level 1 of the missile room upper reactor compartment and Aux Machinery Room 1 with A/C equipment High Pressure Air pumps and Motor Generators.
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/4079/gw1b.png

Next is level 2 of the Missile Room Central Reactor area, Battery Room and Main Missile Room.
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/6542/missle2.png


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## Robert Hargrave

*And the building begins*

Yesterday I got started building the interior of the New George Washington, I cut pieces of .060 styrene to fill in the 3 Escape Trunk Hatches. 
Sanded all the details off the 2 Torpedo Room Bulkheads, and Rear Control Room Bulkhead. As I was checking the new location of the Rear Torpedo Bulkhead I figured out it was going to take a lot of modifying, to make this bulkhead work in the new loaction. After playing around with it for a while I discovered the 2nd Control Room Bulkhead from the other kit, would fit in this spot if I did a small ammount of surgery to it. The Torpedo racks I altered from 2 torpedo cradles to three, to get my complment of 24 fish in the new area, seemed a little bit fragile so I cut piece of .015 sheet styrene and cemented these under each set of racks, to beef them up. This will also make adding the supports that hold the upper rack in position easier to position later.

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/2900/sub6r.jpg


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## Robert Hargrave

The forward bulkhead has been modified and is now sitting out in the garage with the glue drying around the now 6 torpedo tubes. I measured and laid out my template for mass producing groups of bunks to fill all those state rooms. Roy has provided me with what I hope are the last of the design changes in the layout of the boat, and has been a huge help in making this project come to life. Almost every change he's given me I have been able to squeeze into the interior of the boat, nothing is 100% spot on, but I'm hoping as the project moves on anyone who served aboard this boat would recognize it when they viewed the kit. I thought when I started this project the build would start in the aft end and progress forward, but now I've changed direction, and should have something to show early next week, with new finished interior layout art over the weekend.


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## Robert Hargrave

*New layout Revisions*

Anyone following the desig part of this build here are the newest revisions to the layout of the decks, awaiting approval from Roy.
Side view Missile Room.
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/2669/missilerm.png
Overhead view missile Room Level 2 and 3.
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/6542/missle2.png
Side view Aux #2 and Engine Room.
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/9822/aux2.png
Overhead view Engine Room Level 1 and 2.
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/9215/aux2a.png


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## Steve244

It's cool to see all the incongruities of the kit worked out after all these years. I think I'll do mine in an Irwin Allen motif though. Gotta have room for that shark tank.


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## Robert Hargrave

Steve244 said:


> I think I'll do mine in an Irwin Allen motif though. Gotta have room for that shark tank.


Ca'mon Steve think like IA, a panel in the side of the hull opens up, a force field keeps the ocean water out and you can reach through and pet the sharks as they swim by.


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## Steve244

If we remove "Sherwood Forest" the possibilities for a Vernian ballroom with pipe organ come up, with room left over for the captain's yacht!


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## Robert Hargrave

*Final Scale Drawing*

Okay looks like the final revisions have met with Roy's approval, and this mornning I played cut a tape with all the individual pages I printed of side and overhead views of the boat. Here is a photo of my 39 inch by 18 inch master I'll be using as my guide in the building of this crazy project, that's what my wife says I'm crazy to try and build this.

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/8605/sub6z.jpg


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## Roy Kirchoff

Just like being at home.............  
~RK~


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## hedorah59

I'm really impressed! :thumbsup:


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## scotpens

Robert Hargrave said:


> Here is a photo of my 39 inch by 18 inch master I'll be using as my guide in the building of this crazy project, that's what my wife says I'm crazy to try and build this.


That's okay . . . we all go a little mad sometimes . . .








That's a pretty comprehensive interior layout. What's the significance of the color coding on the missile tubes? Do the nuclear warheads come in different flavors?


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## Robert Hargrave

scotpens said:


> What's the significance of the color coding on the missile tubes? Do the nuclear warheads come in different flavors?


I read somewhere that the missile tubes were painted different colors as you moved through Sherwood Forrest. Is this the case on the GW or was this only on the older boats, is a question for Roy.


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## Roy Kirchoff

"I can hear a bubble bursting..."

Everything paintable on the interior: walls, wiring, missile tubes etc. was an ugly light beige color. No color coding of any sort as far as paint was concerned. Sorry! 

~RK~


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## Robert Hargrave

Roy Kirchoff said:


> "I can hear a bubble bursting..."
> 
> Everything paintable on the interior: walls, wiring, missile tubes etc. was an ugly light beige color. No color coding of any sort as far as paint was concerned. Sorry!
> 
> ~RK~


:freak: Say it ain't so Roy! What next no screen door on the sail to go out to the smoking deck? Also a PS, work has come to a grinding halt for a few days, seems a 2 year old little cutie has turned in an IOU for a play house for her birthday this month. Hope my build looks as good as the photo of a finished one, managed to build the base last night and didn't hit my finger once with a hammer, twice maybe but not once.

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/5146/ph1.gif


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## Steve244

Robert Hargrave said:


> :freak: Say it ain't so Roy! What next no screen door on the sail to go out to the smoking deck? Also a PS, work has come to a grinding halt for a few days, seems a 2 year old little cutie has turned in an IOU for a play house for her birthday this month. Hope my build looks as good as the photo of a finished one, managed to build the base last night and didn't hit my finger once with a hammer, twice maybe but not once.
> 
> http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/5146/ph1.gif


I've heard of "built like a brick out-house" but that just doesn't do George justice.


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## Robert Hargrave

Where I'm from that would be considered a "High Dollar Out House."


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## Steve244

Update required: either the commode or the sub.


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## Robert Hargrave

*Still working*

Work is still continuing on the GW project, several drawings later and some minor changes to improve the look of what I hope will be a good looking kitbash. There have been a couple of measurement problems, which caused a complete redrawing of the forward section of the boat. Then to improve the look of the kit when viewed I moved a couple of areas around, the galley food prep area has been flipped from Starboard to port and the ward room moved to the Starboard side of the boat, the ward room looks better than seeing a freezer and storage room. The Torpedo room forward bulkhead had to be moved right up against the nose cone to make enough room for the two banks of torpedo racks. Here is the finished side view drawing of the boat, the reactor area has again been scratched off the list of areas to model and the section from the 2nd hull half that covers the reactor will be cut out and cemented in place to cover up the reactor. 

A disclaimer on scale, I have tweeked the scale of the model to make measurements easier for this build I can use a common ruler for my scale measurements as 1/16th of an inch equals 1 foot taking the kit from a 1:200 scale model to a 1:192 scale.

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/draw4.jpg


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## Robert Hargrave

*new photo*

Here is a side shot of the hull with the main interior bulkheads sitting in their original and some in their new locations. The sails length has been reduced to be closer to a Skipjack attack class boat.

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/george.jpg


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## Robert Hargrave

*Forward Compartment layout*

The changes to the three levels of the forward compartments is finished, I would have liked to keep it as close as I could to the real boats layout, but viewing enjoyment also is a requirement.

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/draw2.jpg


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## Robert Hargrave

*Missile Rm Level 1 & 2 Layout*

Here is the corrected Missile Room floor plan of levels 1 and 2 for the GW.

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/GW1B-1.jpg


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## Robert Hargrave

*Engien Room floor plan*

The final set of drawings showing the Engien Room area and the 3rd level of the Missile Room with the Battery and Pump Room. Right now I am finishing the sanding off of cast on details on the last Main interior Bulkhead, and cutting out the section of the outer hull that will cover the Reactor area of the boat.

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/Aux2a.jpg


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## Steve244

I'll archive your drawings for my next mid-life crisis. Good stuff.


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## Robert Hargrave

Steve244 said:


> I'll archive your drawings for my next mid-life crisis. Good stuff.


I though I would be starting in the forward Torpedo Room and working my way back, but the sealing off of the Reactor Room means starting with the Missile Room and working both forward and aft. I so wanted to put off work on the Missile Room because of all the work patching all those silos together from 2 kits to get one full length silo assembly.


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## Robert Hargrave

After assemblying 1 missile silo so I could get some measurement, I found I can throw all "64 section of the silos from the 2 kits needed to build this mode"l away, the model silos measure .370 and I have a couple of packages of 3/8ths styrene tube that measures .375 and fit into the holes in the main floor perfectly. I can use this to scratch build new silos, I will use the first and second level decks from the kit, cut away the cast on parts on the second level and fill any openings with styrene plugs. For the third level deck I'll use the level 2 deck from my 2nd kit and cut it down to fit, again cutting away any cast on featuresand patching any holes with styrene plugs. Both level 2 decks are slightly warped and I will have to mark a ring around each silo and install a strip around the silo forming a 3/4 ring at the roof line between level 1 and 2. This will give the level 2 deck something to anchor to and help flatten it out, the same procedure will have to happen between level 2 and 3 also.
The 8 torpedo racks are built each rack holds 3 torpedos for a total of 24 "fish" the torpedos have been cleaned up and flashing removed so I can start painting them.
Here is the template I hope to use for building the numerious crew berths through the boat, some will be modified slightly but all will have these basic dementions.

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/CrewBerth.jpg


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## rkoenn

I don't want to throw cold water on your thread as the work you are doing is amazing. However I think this thread would be far better off in the Military/Aircraft models group. Most interested parties in this group are monster and classic figures and such.

Bob K.


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## Robert Hargrave

rkoenn said:


> I don't want to throw cold water on your thread as the work you are doing is amazing. However I think this thread would be far better off in the Military/Aircraft models group. Most interested parties in this group are monster and classic figures and such.
> 
> Bob K.


You are probably correct, but after 77 posts and 7693 views and you are the first person to point this out, it might be a little late to transfer the posting. But I'd be happy to move it How do you do that?


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## rkoenn

Well I don't think you can do that, at least as a simple user. It isn't exactly out of place here but would be more appropo in the other group. I suppose you'd have to start a new one there at this point and link to this thread for those guys to bop into the parts that are over here.

Bob K.


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## falcondesigns

The subject is fine where it is.


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## Roy Kirchoff

^^ I agree.^^ 

~RK~


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## Robert Hargrave

*progress*

The cast on escape hatch openings have been ground down flush with the rest of the hull, and the openings filled in with styrene and filler putty. The rear Engine Room bulkhead mounting ring along with both Reactor Room rings and the forward Missile Room ring have been left on the hull, all other mounting rings have been ground off with a Dremel Ball Grinding bit, then filled in with putty and sanded smooth. The sail has been cut down in length and a new solid base cut from sheet styrene making it solid instead of having a viewable interior. The original torpedo racks from both kits have been converted from holding 2 torpedoes to holding 3, the racks and torpedo bodies have been painted with Testor’s Aluminum paint and the heads of the torpedoes painted with Testor’s Insignia Red.
Missile Room news last night I built the bulkhead between the lower level missile silos and the battery compartment and attached the water tight door on side 1, started building the two batteries starting off with some square styrene tubing and now adding lots of little details. New pictures in a couple of days. 
I'm also working up a set of Photo etch templates to try and make missile silo hatches, chairs, counter tops, table tops and railings. Now to see if it works at all.

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/SUBPARTS.jpg


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## Roy Kirchoff

^^Mark 48 torpedoes were painted *green*.^^

That's all I remember we carried in 1981.

~RK~


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## Robert Hargrave

Roy Kirchoff said:


> ^^Mark 48 torpedoes were painted *green*.^^
> 
> That's all I remember we carried in 1981.
> 
> ~RK~


Well now you tell me:freak: Mine are now Red and cemented in place.


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## Robert Hargrave

*Battery Room*

The battery compartment is started I began with 2 pieces of 3/8ths square styrene tube and capped the open ends with .010 sheet styrene, and filed this flush when the cement dried. I used 2 pieces of Ho Scale photo etched roof walk and cemented 1 piece to the visible side of each battery. 9 pieces of .010 X .030 styrene strip were cut and cemented along the face of the etched roof walk and a piece of .010 sheet styrene was placed across the top of the battery with a piece of .040 strip as a top cap. The bulkhead is a piece of.040 styrene cut to shape and the water tight door is from Tom’s Models. In the back ground you can see the finished torpedo racks, a couple of timy detail parts to add to them to finish them off.

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/george3.jpg


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## Roy Kirchoff

Robert Hargrave said:


> Well now you tell me:freak: Mine are now Red and cemented in place.


Well, I guess you can tell folks they're "special" Mark 37's. Those were prior to the 48's. 

~RK~


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## Robert Hargrave

*Battery Room Work*

The Battery Room is done the scratch built Batteries are painted along with some custom control panels, I have to finish sanding down the interior of the hull where I have used filler putty, install the bulkheads and section of outer hull around the Reactor, and when that is done there is a good 1/8th inch gap at its widest point between the bulkhead and exterior hull, that has to be filled in. Then the fun begins attaching the new floor anchors on the Missile Room bulkheads, cutting new Missile Silos from tube styrene and scratch building all that machinery to fill the aft end of the second level.

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/george4.jpg


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## Robert Hargrave

The outer hull section that covers the reactor has been cut and attached, the Missile Room interior bulkhead needed to be trimmed down slightly to get a correct fit across the top seam. There are still some small gaps along the joint line between the outer hull and interior bulkheads, some styrene pieces and filler putty will fix that. “And just for Guy” (THE TORPEDO HEADS ARE NOW GREEN). Photobucket is down for updating so I can’t post a photo of the new look of the hull.


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## Steve244

Robert Hargrave said:


> The outer hull section that covers the reactor has been cut and attached, the Missile Room interior bulkhead needed to be trimmed down slightly to get a correct fit across the top seam. There are still some small gaps along the joint line between the outer hull and interior bulkheads, some styrene pieces and filler putty will fix that. “And just for Guy” (THE TORPEDO HEADS ARE NOW GREEN). Photobucket is down for updating so I can’t post a photo of the new look of the hull.


google's picasa is awesome for web albums. And they have a pretty damn good desktop client.

I just say this because I need my george visual fix.


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## Robert Hargrave

Here is the shot showing the installed missile Room bulkheads and the Reactor Room covered, the other bulkheads are just sitting in their new locations, I have to Missile Silo cap to attach and gaps around the reactor hull to fill. Will all the reworked areas she sure ain't pretty right now.

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/george5.jpg


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## Steve244

You can always put some multicolor pulsing lights behind a translucent panel to simulate the reactor!


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## Robert Hargrave

All the main interior bulkheads are installed, last bits of putty work are going on now. Hopeing Revell comes through with a new forward torpedo bulkhead so I can make some molds of the torpedo hatches to cement to the front of the tubes. 
And yes the sail looks crooked, the kit hull has a visible twist along the entire length starting just before the missle room, like the mold was pulled out to soon and curled as it cooled.

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/george6.jpg


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## Robert Hargrave

All bulkheads are in, exterior and interior areas are primed and sanded down smooth with 600 grit paper, next interior paint SP Lettering Gray, then exterior with Caboose Red and Engine Black.

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/george7.jpg


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## Roy Kirchoff

It's coming along nicely Robert. :thumbsup: 

~RK~


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## Robert Hargrave

If anyone is intrested I have been working on a improved design on the George washington taking measurements from the model hull and fitting the interior inside of those measurements having to paste the shot from photo bucket the image may not blow up enough to see all the detail. Still a few compartments to be done yet.

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/Polaris.jpg


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## Ductapeforever

I'm interested, I wanted to do the same thing. Correct arrangement, including the Reactor Compartment and Machinery spaces, shaft alley, etc.


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## Robert Hargrave

Ductapeforever said:


> I'm interested, I wanted to do the same thing. Correct arrangement, including the Reactor Compartment and Machinery spaces, shaft alley, etc.


Rounding off the scale and to get things in the ballpark this buld is using 1/16th of an inch is 1 foot so one inch is 16 feet, at this scale trying to get any details to show up it a big task, I built a first set of bunks a couple of weeks back and cemented them together, but when I went back and checked my measurements everything was off scale I used the wrong edge of my multi-scale ruler.
http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/002.jpg
This is tiny and still over sized.


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## Robert Hargrave

Here are the two battries before they were painted they are 13/16's of an inch long and 7/16's of an inch wide making the battries 13 scale feet long and 7 feet wide, with a lot of tiny details added to make them stand out.

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/george3.jpg


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## Ductapeforever

Very well executed. Looking forward with interest to see this to completion. Out of curiosity, did you alter the number of missile tubes to the correct number, or will they even fit?

LCDR Herb S. Hampton, WEPS (SS) USN (Ret.)
Qualified In Submarines 1985


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## Robert Hargrave

Ductapeforever said:


> Very well executed. Looking forward with interest to see this to completion. Out of curiosity, did you alter the number of missile tubes to the correct number, or will they even fit?
> 
> LCDR Herb S. Hampton, WEPS (SS) USN (Ret.)
> Qualified In Submarines 1985


The Revell 1-200 version has always had 16 silos, there is another smaller model that has I think it was only 2 rows of 5 or 6 silos.


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## Ductapeforever

Roger that. I understand this is the larger boat. You're drawings are spot on, Roy provided you with excellent resource material. Looks like it came directly from a TAB booklet.


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## Robert Hargrave

Started the crew's berth area again, this time with the correct side of my scale ruler, all parts right now are .030 sheet styrene cut and sanded down to the more correct sizes. To save time and my eyesight only areas that will be visible will be built, in this case the main row of bunks, crew head & laundry a couple of bunks against the rear wall that can be seen through the open walkway between the middle bunks and head.

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/GWA.jpg


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## Robert Hargrave

*Diesel Motor room*

More work done on the Engine Room and some of the Diesel back-up Motor Compartment, lots and lots of more thing to do yet.

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/Polaris-2.jpg


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## Ductapeforever

You wouldn't by chance have higher resolution pics of these magnificent drawings posted anywhere else where I can save them to my computer perhaps ?


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## Robert Hargrave

The first full section of bunk frames is completed but I still need to make mattresses and pillows to go in each box, there are several more bunks yet to be made. In the head the 3 shower stall divider walls are in along with the end wall of the laundry area, all these pieces are made from .030 sheet styrene with the exception of the base of the bunks. The bunks start with 2 pieces of .080 strip styrene with another piece of .020 x .080 strip sandwiched between, then the end caps are attached and they dividers and each level applies piece by piece. For any modelers thinking they would like to tackle a project like this I threw in a quarter in front of this 19’ x 64’ section for perspective on just how small all these parts are.

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/GWB.jpg


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## Robert Hargrave

Ductapeforever said:


> You wouldn't by chance have higher resolution pics of these magnificent drawings posted anywhere else where I can save them to my computer perhaps ?


I tried to save this and my drawing of the German U-Boat VIIC posted in the MILITARY / AIRCRAFT forum it in a bigger format so all the detail work could be viewed but couldn't without causing distortion. If you'd like a copy I can e-mail it to you currently it is a 24-color bit map but when it is done I plan to convert it to a JPEG and have it printed as a 20" x 30" poster just like I did with the U-Boat.


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## Ductapeforever

PM Sent !


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## Robert Hargrave

More work on the drawings of the interior, I’ve added the Missile Room escape trunk, in the Diesel Motor Room I changed the location of the Diesel Motor and turned it 90 degrees to make room for a Machine Shop, Maneuvering Room and salt water auxiliary tank. I pulled the AC and DC generators out of the Turbine Room and they will be moved to the upper equipment room.

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/Polaris-3.jpg


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## Ductapeforever

Robert Hargrave said:


> More work on the drawings of the interior, I’ve added the Missile Room escape trunk, in the Diesel Motor Room I changed the location of the Diesel Motor and turned it 90 degrees to make room for a Machine Shop, Maneuvering Room and salt water auxiliary tank. I pulled the AC and DC generators out of the Turbine Room and they will be moved to the upper equipment room.
> 
> http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/Polaris-3.jpg


Will anxiously await a revised, finished draft of your drawings. I have the reactor compartment arrangement (It's not classified anymore.) if you'd care to add it.


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## Robert Hargrave

Ductapeforever said:


> Will anxiously await a revised, finished draft of your drawings. I have the reactor compartment arrangement (It's not classified anymore.) if you'd care to add it.


I'll take any unclassified information that makes this a more true boat layout, just got several photos from Nav-Source today for missile room and ward room info. But it is to late for my model as the reactor section has been sealed like the drawing.


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## Robert Hargrave

*Machinery Area*

In the top side view of the boat the Maneuvering Room is in, the 2 A/C units above the Diesel Motor Room are in and the 1 A/C unit just aft of the Missile room is in place. In the overhead views the second drawing has the fresh water plant just aft of at A/C units, in the A/C Room the AC and DC generators are in place and this drawing is nearing the end.

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/Polaris.jpg


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## Robert Hargrave

*missile areas & escape trunks*

Escape trunks fore and aft are in and filled in, upper deck of the missile silos is filled in and the visible Polaris Missile has a new more correct paint job. In the middle section of the Missile Room the Oxygen Generator (DK GREEN) CO2 Scrubber (Lt. Green ) COH2 Burner (RED) High Pressure Compressor (ORANGE) have been added.

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/Polaris-1.jpg


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## Robert Hargrave

In the crew living space all the bunks are being finished up, they are painted, mattresses all 24 of them are cut, painted and installed. Pillows are started on 6 the rest to follow there are drawers in the base of the bunks (they are hard to see but there), base cabinets in the laundry area and head are done just a few more details before the main area can be painted.

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/GWC.jpg


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## Robert Hargrave

*Crew Quarters*

Crew bunks are done, I’m only working up the main ones that will be seen when viewing the model and the two sections at the very front, to give an idea where the Starboard side row would be. In the Head the first photo if you look close in the corner of the laundry area you’ll see the washer and dryer stacked unit, with a counter for folding clothes, the three shower stalls and last the counters that will have sinks. 

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/GWD.jpg
http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/GWE.jpg


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## Robert Hargrave

*Thanks for computer drawing*

Discovered a big measurement mistake in the Missile Room when I was moving machinery from an over head view to a side view drawing, now two days of reconfiguring the locations of the silos to their correct location and adding in some more equipment all over the boat shows lots of progress.

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/Polaris-2.jpg


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## Steve244

This is resolving all the niggling things that bugged me as a 10 year old, tilted decks, and how the hell did they load torpedoes? Thanks.


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## Robert Hargrave

Steve244 said:


> This is resolving all the niggling things that bugged me as a 10 year old, tilted decks, and how the hell did they load torpedoes? Thanks.


With the George Washington because of the size of the Torpedo Room they likely had the small torpedo hatch go directly into the compartment from above, just like the boats from WWII era. The new boats with the Torpedo Room located in the central section of the boat and the launch tubes angel out to the side of the hull. The Torpedo hatch now angles towards the control room opening into and above the central hallway the deck in this section is removable and the Torpedo’s drop right down into the Torpedo cradles below.


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## Robert Hargrave

The drawing is finished, some more changes were made to the interior layout in the missile rooms. Roy said there was a ladder going between a couple of the decks but I found a photograph on NavSource (that says it is the George Washington) showing two levels of the missile compatment and there is a narrow set of stairs in the background in both photos, so I put them in. Another omision I made level 2 of the missile room the control panels that are 4 to 5 feet tall look to go all the way across the compartment, so I only put in part of those panels so you can see the missile silos. Last disclamer because of a lack of real photos of the boat most of this interior layout is 90% guess work, the equipment is there but what it looks like is only a guess.

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/Polaris-4.jpg


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## Robert Hargrave

The crew living area is almost completed only the toilets and divider walls to make, here is shot one of the crew’s head area and laundry room.
http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/GWF.jpg

Shot two shows the end of the bunks with a study desk in the corner.
http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/GWE-1.jpg

Shot three shows how the unit will look with the next deck in place above it.
http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/GWD-1.jpg


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## Steve244

Very cool.

have you thought about overhead lighting? Some SMD LEDs with mag wire could be used.


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## Robert Hargrave

Steve244 said:


> Very cool.
> 
> have you thought about overhead lighting? Some SMD LEDs with mag wire could be used.


I have trouble changing a light bulb, let alone figuring out how to power tiny led's without a one second flash of light a buzzing noise and then blackness.


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## Tom Dougherty

*Just Joined*

I stumbled across this thread, and was delighted to find that there were others interested in attempting the same kind of project I have been comtemplating for some time: converting an old Renwal kit to higher accuracy. The work you have posted here the interior fittings is extremely fascinating and extraordinarily helpful.

At this point, I have (among my >100 submarine kits & finished sub models; and well over 160 submarine books & documents, technical and otherwise) three of the Renwal kits (Renwal # 652, Ethan Allen; Renwal # 653, Thomas Jefferson with clear side, and the rare kit Renwal # 651, the George Washington, with the shortened turtleback forward). I also have the reissued (from the old Renwal molds that Revell obtained, not the original Revell Polaris version) Revell 05010, Andrew Jackson (actually the Ethan Allen mold). 

A couple of questions and observations on the work this far. 

I noticed you started with the Ethan Allen kit; were you unable to find the Renwal GW kit? I know the Renwal GW version I have is very old (original late 1950's box), and while it does have the shortened turtleback of this class, the "generic, one size fits all" length (as it is with all of the Renwal Polaris sub kits) is 24 inches. At a nominal 1:200 scale, that is 400 feet. The actual lengths were GW class: 381 3/4 ft., Ethan Allen 410 1/2 ft., and Lafayette class 425 ft. Obviously not something that can be easily adjusted, but it may be a factor in some spacing of the internal fittings in your model. I think your drawings have very adequately addressed those, however.

Both the upper and lower rudders on all Polaris (and all US SSN and SSBNs) are one piece, all moving surfaces, but Renwal rendered the rudders as 2 pieces, a fixed forward piece and moving aft surface. The upper rudder is usually longer than the lower rudder on later Polaris SSBNs (pretty sure that is not true on the Washingtons, though), with the two rudders on the Renwal kit each of equal length. The stern planes are two sections, forwward fixed and aft moving, but there should also be a non-moving section outboard on the two stern planes. I couldn't tell if you had corrected those external Renwal errors on your build as yet.

I was curious as to why you shortened the sail on your build, and how you determined the appropriate length. Although the GWs were derived from the Skipjacks, the sails were lengthened somewhat for the additional masts of the star tracker periscope and the radiometric sextant, among other items. The later Polaris SSBN boats did have an even longer sail, and if that is what Renwal used as a measure, you were correct to shorten the GW build. The actual GW sail is not far from where I live, so I could always go down and measure it for you.

The drawings I have show the pressure hull "necking in" from the outer hull just aft of the reactor compartment, in the region aft of where the turtleback is located, over the AM area. This is labelled "Machinery Room" in your drawing, and the double hull area covers just the Machinery Room space; returning to a single hull aft of the region. This void creates a space for the aft ballast tanks, similar to the space between the pressure hull & outer hull in the torpedo room forward, which also is the bow ballast tank location. This was true of the SCB 180A, SCB 180 and SCB 216 SSBN designs. It was only in the Ohio SSBN design that the aft ballast tanks were moved to the tail cone area. The same is true for the contemporaneous Permit (SCB 188) and Sturgeon (SCB 188A) SSNs; they also had necked in areas over the Auxiliary Machinery Spaces for ballast tanks. The 688 SSN class went to the aft tail cone ballast tanks and did away with the necked in region, as well.

I have not seen it mentioned in the thread, but the Casimir Pulaski web site by Don Murphy has lots of interior color photos of that SSBN in the "Virtual Ship's Tour" section.

Again, sorry to be joining this thread late & raising these points, and I am very impressed with the work you have accomplished so far on this very difficult rework of the Renwal kit.

Regards,
Tom Dougherty


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## Robert Hargrave

Tom Dougherty said:


> I stumbled across this thread, and was delighted to find that there were others interested in attempting the same kind of project I have been comtemplating for some time: converting an old Renwal kit to higher accuracy. The work you have posted here the interior fittings is extremely fascinating and extraordinarily helpful.
> 
> At this point, I have (among my >100 submarine kits & finished sub models; and well over 160 submarine books & documents, technical and otherwise) three of the Renwal kits (Renwal # 652, Ethan Allen; Renwal # 653, Thomas Jefferson with clear side, and the rare kit Renwal # 651, the George Washington, with the shortened turtleback forward). I also have the reissued (from the old Renwal molds that Revell obtained, not the original Revell Polaris version) Revell 05010, Andrew Jackson (actually the Ethan Allen mold).
> 
> A couple of questions and observations on the work this far.
> 
> I noticed you started with the Ethan Allen kit; were you unable to find the Renwal GW kit? I know the Renwal GW version I have is very old (original late 1950's box), and while it does have the shortened turtleback of this class, the "generic, one size fits all" length (as it is with all of the Renwal Polaris sub kits) is 24 inches. At a nominal 1:200 scale, that is 400 feet. The actual lengths were GW class: 381 3/4 ft., Ethan Allen 410 1/2 ft., and Lafayette class 425 ft. Obviously not something that can be easily adjusted, but it may be a factor in some spacing of the internal fittings in your model. I think your drawings have very adequately addressed those, however.
> 
> Both the upper and lower rudders on all Polaris (and all US SSN and SSBNs) are one piece, all moving surfaces, but Renwal rendered the rudders as 2 pieces, a fixed forward piece and moving aft surface. The upper rudder is usually longer than the lower rudder on later Polaris SSBNs (pretty sure that is not true on the Washingtons, though), with the two rudders on the Renwal kit each of equal length. The stern planes are two sections, forwward fixed and aft moving, but there should also be a non-moving section outboard on the two stern planes. I couldn't tell if you had corrected those external Renwal errors on your build as yet.
> 
> I was curious as to why you shortened the sail on your build, and how you determined the appropriate length. Although the GWs were derived from the Skipjacks, the sails were lengthened somewhat for the additional masts of the star tracker periscope and the radiometric sextant, among other items. The later Polaris SSBN boats did have an even longer sail, and if that is what Renwal used as a measure, you were correct to shorten the GW build. The actual GW sail is not far from where I live, so I could always go down and measure it for you.
> 
> The drawings I have show the pressure hull "necking in" from the outer hull just aft of the reactor compartment, in the region aft of where the turtleback is located, over the AM area. This is labelled "Machinery Room" in your drawing, and the double hull area covers just the Machinery Room space; returning to a single hull aft of the region. This void creates a space for the aft ballast tanks, similar to the space between the pressure hull & outer hull in the torpedo room forward, which also is the bow ballast tank location. This was true of the SCB 180A, SCB 180 and SCB 216 SSBN designs. It was only in the Ohio SSBN design that the aft ballast tanks were moved to the tail cone area. The same is true for the contemporaneous Permit (SCB 188) and Sturgeon (SCB 188A) SSNs; they also had necked in areas over the Auxiliary Machinery Spaces for ballast tanks. The 688 SSN class went to the aft tail cone ballast tanks and did away with the necked in region, as well.
> 
> I have not seen it mentioned in the thread, but the Casimir Pulaski web site by Don Murphy has lots of interior color photos of that SSBN in the "Virtual Ship's Tour" section.
> 
> Again, sorry to be joining this thread late & raising these points, and I am very impressed with the work you have accomplished so far on this very difficult rework of the Renwal kit.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Dougherty


I was searching ebay for a Polaris kit and came across the Andrew Jackson first when I was looking to start the project then discovered it was going to take 2 kits to make the one, it was later after I was already working I found a damaged George Washington kit.
Yes the original kit length 24inches @ 1/200 comes out to 400 feet but I changed the scale, I have a multi-scale ruler and in trying to find a scale close to the correct scale of the kit that I would have a simple way to measure with I converted the scale of the boat to 1/16th of an inch is 1 foot. So now 1 inch is 16 feet @ 24 inches come out to 384 feet.
The stern controlling surfaces are just as the kit provided I have no photos or information on the layout for those surfaces.
As for the sail looks like another mistake on my part, looking at photos of the GW I thought it looked bigger than the Skipjack sail, but reading it was an attack boat converted at the last minute to hold the missile silos I went with the smaller sail design.
Pressure hull the necking in you describe I have seen in only one place a metal submarine cut-away piece of wall art but I could not find any such design in any other drawing I found so I went with what I had seen in this design, which is 85% guess work anyway.
I just found the bottom line of your post and checked the Casimir Pulaski site, I just put out a contract on you, so when you least expect it out of nowhere don’t be surprised to get hit by a half dozen big puffy marshmallows.


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## Tom Dougherty

*Drawings coming your way...*



Robert Hargrave said:


> The stern controlling surfaces are just as the kit provided I have no photos or information on the layout for those surfaces.
> As for the sail looks like another mistake on my part, looking at photos of the GW I thought it looked bigger than the Skipjack sail, but reading it was an attack boat converted at the last minute to hold the missile silos I went with the smaller sail design.
> Pressure hull the necking in you describe I have seen in only one place a metal submarine cut-away piece of wall art but I could not find any such design in any other drawing I found so I went with what I had seen in this design, which is 85% guess work anyway.
> I just found the bottom line of your post and checked the Casimir Pulaski site, I just put out a contract on you, so when you least expect it out of nowhere don’t be surprised to get hit by a half dozen big puffy marshmallows.


Robert, thanks for the response. Again, great work with this kit! Please check your email as I am sending a set of files (84 Mb worth) that I think you will find most interesting and helpful.

The files are 18 TAB drawings of the overall layout of SSBN 611 (which was a later design than the GW class; designed as SSBN from the start & using much of the Thresher/Permit technology rather than Skipjack). The "necked in" area with the aft MBTs is clearly shown in several of the drawings. Also depicted is the rudder and stern plane throws. Hope these are of some help! Again, wish I had found this site & thread earlier. I am usually over on the SubCommittee site (as I have written for the magazine for 12 years), Steelnavy, or Model Warships.

I'll look out for those incoming marshmallows, as well.

Regards,
Tom Dougherty


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## Ductapeforever

Robert, I should be blown out a missile tube as I wasn't aware you needed interior photos or that you did not know of the Casimer Pulaski website. I have had this material for years. Sorry.

Tom, you sound like a card carrying Bubblehead. Welcome. I would be interested in exhangeing any research materials you may have.


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## Robert Hargrave

*starting over*

The whole project is in dry dock, a (excuse the pun) whole boat load of information has been given to me on the Skipjack and Ballistic Missile boats and this is causing a total scrapping of the recent drawing (which is in the drafting shop being modified) of the GW, and the model is back in the body shop for a major overhaul. Tail section the rudders have been cemented in place and the putty applied to make the two piece rudder one unit. The lower rudder has been shortened is this correct not sure but too late to turn back now.
http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/GWG.jpg
The modified sail has been cut away and the sail from the second kit has been cut apart and will go in its place, the plate I attached under the sail to fill in the bottom had to be removed and a new one made from .060 styrene. The rear Torpedo Room bulkhead was removed as (another design mis-step by me) it has to be cut down or a new one made not sure which way I have to go yet, and moved forward shortening the Torpedo Room
http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/GWH.jpg
I couldn't find the cap for the sail so I took two of the inside decks cemented then together and have shaved them down to form a new sail cap, some sanding and body filled still needed.


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## Ductapeforever

It never ceases to amaze me that when nearing the end of a project, suddenly a door opens and one is presented with a wealth of new information and a decission must be made as to how to proceed.

You have done some briliant work, and Roy has gently guided your hand, but I concur,...take your time, make the corrections. Your perseverance will result in an astounding body of work. Of course if I may be of service, please do not hesitate to ask.


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## Steve244

I shudder to think about the cost overruns on this...


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## Tom Dougherty

*SSBN Diagrams*

I have given Robert permission to post the drawings & photos that I sent him, if he so desires. The 18 drawings are from the SSBN 611 Piping TAB. Nothing classified, but fairly detailed deck layouts and dimensions of that class. I tried to figure out how to post it here, but ran into problems pretty quickly. I apparently created an album, but I have no idea where it is located in this system. I am new on this forum, and actually spend most of my submarine modelling efforts over on the SubCommittee BB (I write for their submarine magazine), SteelNavy & Model Warships.

Tom


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## Robert Hargrave

*Torpedo Room*

This is so strange, I moved a bulkhead then opened a hole in the roof of the Torpedo Room, added a ladder to access this upper level, added some bunks for crew, modified the Escape Trunk to hold the Torpedo loading hatch and tube. Now the Torpedo Room suddenly looks like the one in the Renewal and Revell model kit if you turn your head to the left and look at it out of the corner of your eye.

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/changes.jpg


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## Robert Hargrave

Ductapeforever said:


> It never ceases to amaze me that when nearing the end of a project, suddenly a door opens and one is presented with a wealth of new information and a decission must be made as to how to proceed.
> 
> You have done some briliant work, and Roy has gently guided your hand, but I concur,...take your time, make the corrections. Your perseverance will result in an astounding body of work. Of course if I may be of service, please do not hesitate to ask.


Any time you see something I'm working on, and you have some extra information on or about it jump right in all information is welcome.


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## Tom Dougherty

*TAB Book References*

Robert,
If you look at TAB drawing #0005 that I sent you, you will note that the torpedo loading hatch is 180 degrees around from the direction you have it on your drawing. The torpedoes are loaded nose first from the deck, with the loading chute slanting down toward the bow, not away from it. Also note that in Drawing 0005, the access hatch for the torpedo room is at the back bulkhead of the torpedo room, and not forward as you have it. There is a small supply office on the port side at the rear of the torpedo room (TAB drawing # 0007). Also note that the torpedo room is surrounded by forward Main Ballast Tanks (MBT) 1A,B, 2A,B and 3A,B (A tanks are starboard, B tanks are port). 

I think one problem is you are trying to put standard bunks in the torpedo room, and I believe they are fold down bunks over the tubes.

*NOTE: For those of you that would like to play along at home. * Since I have not succeeded to date in posting some of the TAB drawings here, I have placed some of the key drawings on my SubCommittee home page. I tried to post the link, but I was forbidden to do so, as I don't have "enough posts". 

If you would like to see these drawings, I suggest you go to the SubCommittee web site (subcommittee.com), go to the "members homepage" on the left Main Page menu and select it, click D at the bottom on the resulting alphabetical list, and then select my name from the D member list. Scroll to the bottom of my member page for selected key SSBN TAB diagrams. Click on the thumbnails for full size. These are very high resolution, so you may need to back off your screen magnification in your browser.

I had no trouble posting these big files on the SubCommittee site. In contrast, since this web site seems to make it extremely difficult to post either photos or links, I will continue to email Robert with information & file materials, but will otherwise not return to this web site in the future. _Vios con Dios, Amigos!_


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## Robert Hargrave

*More Hull Work*

Took my Dremel tool with the round grinding bit and chewed out the old glue, left over filler putty and bits of styrene from the old bulkhead location. I was able to do a sight line down the hull with the bulkhead removed using one of the rudders as a level line and I could see the Torpedo Tubes were sitting at a slight up angle towards the outer hull. So I removed these and will put a new set in after the floor is in place and mount them to a thin sheet of styrene, then cement that to the forward bulkhead. The new base for the sail was dry so I put putty on both the top and bottom sections and sanded this smooth so there will be a solid ceiling above the Periscopes.

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/GWI.jpg


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## Robert Hargrave

Tom Dougherty said:


> Robert,
> If you look at TAB drawing #0005 that I sent you, you will note that the torpedo loading hatch is 180 degrees around from the direction you have it on your drawing. The torpedoes are loaded nose first from the deck, with the loading chute slanting down toward the bow, not away from it. Also note that in Drawing 0005, the access hatch for the torpedo room is at the back bulkhead of the torpedo room, and not forward as you have it. There is a small supply office on the port side at the rear of the torpedo room (TAB drawing # 0007). Also note that the torpedo room is surrounded by forward Main Ballast Tanks (MBT) 1A,B, 2A,B and 3A,B (A tanks are starboard, B tanks are port).
> 
> [/I]


Tom,
I have viewed all your attachments and saved several for reference later and in the Ballistic Missile boats yes the escape trunk is at the rear of the Torpedo Room, but as the George Washington started out to be an attack boat (Scorpion) you have to wonder the keel was laid, that means parts and equipment were ordered and sitting on site or in route for Scorpion. George Washington has 6 Torpedo tubes like an attack boat so I pondered if everything is there how much on the interior is an attack boat layout with changes made at the last minute to accommodate equipment that a attach boat would not have, like Missile Control Room. If the George Washington was built with an attack boat interior then the model layout and my drawing make sense, so I went to Nav-Source looking for an answer but only more questions came out of my search, I looked at build dates for the attack boats and missile boats and that only muddied the waters more. AT-attack Boat MS-Missile Boat
Date	Boat Number
05/29/56	Skipjack 585 AT
02/03/58	Sculpin 590 AT
02/24/59	shark 591 AT
04/07/58	Snook 592 AT
05/20/58	Theodore Roosevelt	600 MS	
05/27/58	Patrick Henry 599 MS
08/20/58	Scorpion 589 AT
08/25/58	Robert E. Lee 601 MS
11/01/58	Abraham Lincoln 602 MS
01/23/59	Scamp 588 AT
06/09/59	George Washington	589 MS

If you look at the date the keel was laid the George Washington was the last boat built but when you look at the boats number, okay now I’m really confused both Scorpion and GW are number 589. Now I’m not sure what to look at I was thinking 80 to 90% of the boat was an attack boat layout Tom Clancy even mentioned the GW had the hull dimensions of an attack boat and the turtle back was added to cover the bulge from the taller med-section of the missile room that was I think he said 34 feet and the rest of the boat was 31 feet. Any feedback on this issued would help.


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## Robert Hargrave

*Design modifications*

To start off I must apologize to Roy Kirchoff, Roy after looking over a tom of materials and photos, all the information you passed along just did not fit with what I saw in other boats, then the other day Tom sent me a drawing of the Robert E. Lee that backed up almost every part you had shown me, So I'm sorry I lost the faith and doubted your information.

With all the wealth of new information on the GW the drawing is being revised to more closely match the interior of the boat, this will never be 100% I’m looking at 80 to 85% some liberties are going to have to be taken here and there. Changes so far all in the forward compartments, Torpedo room cut down to two racks of torpedoes, escape / torpedo loading hatch moved forward, storage compartment added above torpedo room, small crew sleeping area added above torpedo room with ladder on bulkhead for access. Ballast tanks split to two sections with trim tank added, torpedo room narrowed and storage cabinets installed along outer walls.
Deck one: no real changes here Officer sleeping areas moved forward ballast tanks removed and sanitation tank added next to Officers head.
Deck two: Galley and crew mess moved forward still some work in this area to finish up.
http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/changes-1.jpg


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## Roy Kirchoff

No worries Bob, I'm sure there's a ton of info out there. 
My memories are hazy, that's the sad truth, sometimes I get mixed up about which boat I remember, GW or Tunny, but I'm certain the stuff I provided was for the most part accurate. :thumbsup:

~RK~


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## Robert Hargrave

Working on a project like this is like trying to put an elephant in a VW bug, just as I get one deck laid out and looking okay try to come close the plans and drawings, I move to the next level and everything falls apart. Deck one Control room, periscopes had to be moved further apart to fit hallway in level two. I wasn’t going to include the fan room in the drawing of the Robert E. Lee but when I had deck one laid out it is so big I had a huge hole in the corner of the deck and needed something to fill the hole, so the fan room is back in.
Level two lots and tweaking every where to get things to kind of fall in place galley moved around, then moved again, CPO room moved around had to add a machinery space because again a huge open hole in the corner, thank goodness this is a model. Forgot to move some of the lables.
http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/changes-2.jpg


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## RESINCRYPT

Excellant.


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## Robert Hargrave

The forward compartments from the forward missile room bulkhead to the torpedo room is finished, I’m not sure what the fan room and machinery room layout will look like so for the moment those are blank. As all this is for filling out a model some areas will have a little extra space such as the crew living area on deck 3. Now to work on the missile rooms and motor compartments and get this done before my shipment of styrene comes in.
http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/changes-3.jpg


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## Robert Hargrave

The three levels of the missile compartment are done to the best of my information and a lot of guess work, level one I have no information of what is in the far left compartment with the hatch topside. Level two with all the main air scrubbers and cooling equipment, missile service systems, work shop, infirmary, chief of the boat, yeoman’s office and nuke lab. Level three I am told the batteries for the boat are located in the far left compartment along with the pump room, not under the crew compartment so this is where I placed them. 
http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/changes-4.jpg


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## Robert Hargrave

*Bunk Template*

I started building the bunks in the crew space above the torpedo room, this is the build process weather you are making one bunk or three bunks high, then you just attach another section to the first when building rows. Starting with dimensions:
Bunks are 2 feet high and 6 feet long, there is a storage drawer in the base for each bunk unit, using 1/16th of an inch as 1 scale I used the following styrene sizes to build my bunks.
(2) .080 x .080 x .375 for the base of the bunks and (1) piece of scrap .020 x .060 styrene as a spacer for one end of the .080 x .080 base blocks.
(2) .20 x .188 x .562 for the end caps for the first bunk (any bunks that attach to this one will have only 1 
end piece.
(2) .020 x .188 x .375 these form the two bunks above the base unit (you need to cut spacers out of scrap styrene that measured .125 high and at least .300 long that can be set in place then removed when the bunk is dry.)
To start building the first unit set (1) .080 x .080 block in a jig ( I used small modeling square) put a dab of cement on one corner of the first .020 x .188 end cap put it in the jig and slide the .080 x .080 block into place, on the other end attach the scrap piece of .020 x .060 styrene spacer (see diagram). When this is dry put the other .080 x .080 x .375 block in the jig flip the bunk over and cement these pieces together and add the second end cap.
Set the first 2 spacers on top of the base section and butter the ends of the first .188 x .375 and cement it in place, do the same for the next piece. This will give you your 6’ long by 2’ high bunk space. Cut some .005 styrene to size to make the drawers in the base and paint.
The mattresses are made from .020 x.188 x .372 styrene and cemented to the top of the base then the two bunk pads above, pillows are made from .020 x .060 styrene cut to length.
http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/BUNKS.jpg


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## Robert Hargrave

*Finished at last......*

My design for the SSBN George Washington Ballistic Missile Submarine is finished, no more re-drafts this is the final design, after almost three weeks working on this I’m calling it a done deal. Now for several disclaimers:
1.	The design of the interior is done using information from several sources, and drawings from different boat designs to figure out the interior layout for the boat.
2.	The dimensions of the hull were taken from the Revell model of the boat, not from working plans of the real vessel, all of this was done to build a more realistic interior inside of a production model shell, so I am sure there are a number of things wrong.
3.	The interior layout again is from several sources, taking something from one source and another item from the next and so on, this is only my best guess along with guidance from other members providing drawings, and personal information from time on the boat, to all of them thank you for your time and information.
4.	All equipment is 100% guess work they are just items placed in the drawings to show where a piece of machinery or other equipment may have been placed and may have looked like.
5.	Ballast tanks, feed water tanks and oil storage tanks have all been simplified to just make them easier to add to the boat and fit below the beck in the voids below. In drawings these tanks can be seen along the bulkheads and up through decks and between bulkheads.
6.	Last disclaimer, this is just to build what I hope will be a great looking MODEL, it is not designed to be a 100% match of the GW.
With all that mentioned here is the finished boat design, time to get back to building. If anyone would like a big viewable file of the boat e-mail me I can send a zip file you can open, my plan is to print 2 20 X 30 prints for me and my Grandson Michael 1 for my work room and 1 for Michael’s bedroom.

http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/Polaris2-1.jpg


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## Ductapeforever

Beautiful work Robert, not to pick nits, but each bunk has a storage locker underneath (See photo). Go with what you've got.

The photo is enlisted mid level berthing aboard Ethan Allen class boat.


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## Robert Hargrave

Ductapeforever said:


> Beautiful work Robert, not to pick nits, but each bunk has a storage locker underneath (See photo). Go with what you've got.
> 
> The photo is enlisted mid level berthing aboard Ethan Allen class boat.


I'll save that tid-bit for when Moebius comes out with a 1/72nd scale George Washington class boat model......Well they have the Skipjack coming out whay not a GW class boat next..... Gotta stop eating those funny mushrooms.


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## Ductapeforever

I plan to do what your doing with the Skipjack. Can't wait, big boat equals lots of detail.


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## Robert Hargrave

Ductapeforever said:


> I plan to do what your doing with the Skipjack. Can't wait, big boat equals lots of detail.


Tom sent me a ton of information with drawings of the interior of the shipjack boats, ballast tank locations 3 D floor layout, but just like me and the GW all the good stuff like equipment and control panels you'll have to guess what it looks like. You can go to his sub committee site and view it I have a lot of it saved in a folder for future use.


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## Ductapeforever

Went to the Sub Commitee site and Tom's member page, but only saw the 611 class sub stuff, nothing on Skipjack.


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## Robert Hargrave

Ductapeforever said:


> Went to the Sub Commitee site and Tom's member page, but only saw the 611 class sub stuff, nothing on Skipjack.


I'll send you the stuff I have from his e-mails.


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## Ductapeforever

Robert Hargrave said:


> I'll send you the stuff I have from his e-mails.


Greatly appreciate the Skipjack info. It will come in handy for my project.


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## Robert Hargrave

*New crew compartment*

The new crew compartment main floor layout is finished this area has been cut down to 61 feet long and I took the kit end bulkhead for the crew compartment (the half moon piece) and will be using this for the end cap of the compartment. Crew head section has 3 showers (still a couple of parts to add here) a sink area (still to be built), 3 toilet stalls (3 N-scale toilets on order to fill this spot) and the laundry area (washer & dryer being built). In the crew compartment the structure surrounding the periscope housings is in along with all main walls, only need to build the bunks and paint.
http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/GWH-1.jpg


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## Robert Hargrave

*first 2 levels*

Here are the first two levels of the forward section with the main walls assembled, the areas that will be hidden from view are not going to be filled in. Lowest level crew sleeping area and head, the upper level is the Galley, dry stores, frozen stores, CPO sleeping area, and Mechanical room. Each level is 9 feet tall to make it all look more correct when fitted into the shell of the model. The bunks are only in the photo for looks. Now a ton of details yet to build.
http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx226/booker1067/George Washington/GWI-1.jpg


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