# If there were a class . . . .



## co_zee (Mar 28, 2005)

If there were a class, a national hard body inline class using your choice of G3(R), Tyco, Slottech, and or Wizzard cars, where one could earn a national championship title, would you attend?


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## noddaz (Aug 6, 1999)

Maybe.....
(Not that I would be a threat to anyone...)

Scott


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## coach61 (Sep 6, 2004)

I'd Go but then again most events even called Mid west are so far NORTH that mid is moot and If I drive 1200 miles for slots I am going to drive the next 200and visit family first.. so National would have be defined...


Dave


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## co_zee (Mar 28, 2005)

noddaz said:


> Maybe.....
> (Not that I would be a threat to anyone...)
> 
> Scott


LOL!!! You and me both!!!



> I'd Go but then again most events even called Mid west are so far NORTH that mid is moot and If I drive 1200 miles for slots I am going to drive the next 200and visit family first.. so National would have be defined...


Weeeeeeelllllll, if this becomes a reality, it will more than likely take place in Milwaukee WI.



Things are already in the works preparing the details for presentation to one of the national HO racing organizations (per their request). If it looks like a class the organization feels fits their vision for the hobby, and will draw enough racers to support it, it will become a reality, at least as a trial run so to speak. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

I don't think the type of body matters at all. It's all about the focus and quality of the venue, the quality of the racing, and the attitude and spirit of the racers and race organizers. 

I love running lexan bodies. The variety of available bodies, the ease of which anyone can paint then, the punishment they can take, and their very low cost. In the unlikely case that a lexan body gets trashed after some hard racing or over time, no big deal, I'll slap on another one that I've painted up myself.

I love running hard bodies too. Some of them are tanks so once racers figure out the best off the shelf body for a particular chassis then everyone tends to gravitate towards using it. Anyone seriously running Life-Likes is going to run the Datsun or Porsche 911 body. There are far fewer choices when running hardbodies than lexans. It's not like I'm going to pick one of my coveted collectible bodies out of a display case and see it destroyed for an opportunity to be the best runner in the C main.  With hardbody racing a soft wall shot can pop the body off unless it's tacky glued or taped in place, and a poor tape job can render a hard body uglier than a crudely painted lexan.

To get people to drive many hours, spent hard earned money for gas, hotels, and food, and get the time off from work and potentially be away from family and other loved ones for days, there has to be a lot more there than just being able to run your favorite hard body on a fast chassis for 20 minutes in the chaos of a national event. It had better be fun, and fun is not determined by the type of body slapped on a chassis. Bottom line: It's not about the equipment, it's about the racing and it's about the people. The spirit of racing, friendly competition, and camaraderie transcends the equipment and other props. The sooner all national racing organizations realize that they need to fix themselves from within, polish their own spirits, and not try to use the equipment as a crutch to compensate for internal deficiencies, the sooner the race attendance will start moving back in the right direction. That being said, I do like what I'm seeing from some of the new leadership, so I am hopeful that we are moving forward the right way. 

To address some of co_zee's inferences, I can say that last years 2007 UFHORA Nats at Lucky Bobs was a fabulous event at a great venue. The spirit of racing transcended the equipment, for the most part, and it was total fun and at times downright hilarious. Especially the awards ceremony. Lucky Bob is a gracious host and has a first rate shop and immaculate racing setup. Totally first class across the board. I have no doubt that the 2008 HOPRA Nats will be just as awesome, whether or not there is a hardbody racing class or not. The only thing that would make it better would be having even more racers show up, regardless of your affiliation or preference for some subtle nuance of a slice of the total picture. Show up, make friends, and have fun.


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## vaBcHRog (Feb 19, 2003)

The thing I would like the national orgabnizations do is have some kind of Team racing like the FRAY/ShootOut/QuadCityQuarrel there is no reason why this type of racing has to be limited to TJETS. Out of all the racing formats I have raced over the years this one is the most fun 

Roger Corrie


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## co_zee (Mar 28, 2005)

vaBcHRog said:


> The thing I would like the national orgabnizations do is have some kind of Team racing like the FRAY/ShootOut/QuadCityQuarrel there is no reason why this type of racing has to be limited to TJETS. Out of all the racing formats I have raced over the years this one is the most fun
> 
> Roger Corrie


Team racing is quite fun. There have been a few G-Jet team enduros in the Chicago area. The really fun part of them is when the house lights are shut down and the race continues with only the lights on the cars. Amazingly, these cars are quite easy to drive like this!! The marshals are equipped with small penlights!!!

I know that having something teamed based takes up a good amount of time and time is at a premium at most of the Nats now. Perhaps though, something can be done on it's own! :thumbsup:


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

Team racing formats are great but I think they command their own venue due to the time and space constraints involved. If a team race were added to the Nats something else would have to be dropped or more time added to an already full schedule.

There are some great recurring team events out there already, including the Fray as Roger mentioned, the 24 Hour LeMans race in the UK that Deane has talked about, and the 12 Hours of Ohio Enduro (12 teams, 12 hours, any SS car) which has been taking place for 5 years. 

Again, it's not about the type or car, type of body, whose brand of parts you're using, or where the venue takes place. It's all about the camaraderie and fellowship of the participants and the care and effort the organizers and host put into helping make the event an enjoyable and memorable experience for everyone involved.


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## afxgns (Jul 6, 2006)

co_zee said:


> The really fun part of them is when the house lights are shut down and the race continues with only the lights on the cars. Amazingly, these cars are quite easy to drive like this!! The marshals are equipped with small penlights!!!


I love the G-jets, but I would rather have my teeth drilled than run these things in the dark again.


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## co_zee (Mar 28, 2005)

afxgns said:


> I love the G-jets, but I would rather have my teeth drilled than run these things in the dark again.


I have only run them once in the dark, and that was at the Outhouse Invitational this past September. AWESOME is the only word I have for the experience :woohoo: . Steve Medanic did a great job with the lights and have heard he has improved upon them a bit more.



> Again, it's not about the type or car, type of body, whose brand of parts you're using, or where the venue takes place.


I agree with what you are implying but some clarifying needs to be made as it really isn't that simple. All of these issues are like bricks in a wall. The type of car does make a difference. There are many who don't wish to run a pancake class but would an inline, and vise versa. And the venue makes a difference also. Many choose not to drive several hours (5+ just a number) no matter what the class or classes are where if the event was "close to home" they'd be there with bells on. Body type does make a difference, especially if the difference is between a hard body or lexan. Brand of parts is a gimme since for the most part, they are brand specific. It is the "Ford vs Chevy" brand of car rivalry which can make the difference. One thing you forgot to mention was the track(s) which will be raced upon. At the existing national level events track construction and condition can also make or break an event. Throwing together a 4 lane on top of a couple of conference tables just won't cut it at this level.




> It's all about the camaraderie and fellowship of the participants and the care and effort the organizers and host put into helping make the event an enjoyable and memorable experience for everyone involved.


This is the mortar which holds the bricks together. The fellowship and camaraderie comes from attending a racing event and many have already in one way, shape, or form established these prior to a nationals. A race such as a nationals can form new friendships and create new memories but for the most part, simply adds to what has already been formed. At a national event, it seems it is many times over, about the racing.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

Cozee, you're characterizations are spot on with describing the prima donna behaviors that have helped set the *organized national slot car racing scene* on a steady decline in participation. I know there are so called racers who require everything at an event meets their pristine little definition of what qualifies something "worthy of their participation." I recognize the type...

... rails too high, rails too low, rails too uneven, power not good enough, can't run their favorite brand of this or that part, track layout not right, track layout not published enough ahead of time, don't like the venue, don't like the sponsor, don't like the payout structure, too hot, too cold, too humid, too dry, ... blah blah, blah, big ol' pile of excuses why they can't play the game, so they don't race or even show up. 

Of course I realize that everyone has a limit on how far they can travel, and how much money they can spend. I'm addressing qualities that attract racers to any race event, not specifically so called national events. Frankly, the national racing events that are part of the large organized associations/federations have never been less relevant than they are now and it is absolutely no reflection on whether there is a hardbody inline class at the "Nats" or where the event is held. What's keeping people away from the "Nats" is the fact that it's not just about the racing, the camaraderie, and the fellowship any more. If people were only showing up to race then they'd be leaving their excuses at home, and they would all be showing up to the same event , the same "Nats," and not just the ones that met their narrowly focused criteria. 

Trying to "fix" the national racing scene by tweaking the technical aspects of the sport is not going to work. We have to fix it by addressing much more fundamental human related issues.


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## noddaz (Aug 6, 1999)

*well!*



afxgns said:


> I love the G-jets, but I would rather have my teeth drilled than run these things in the dark again.


Don't hold back... Tell us how you really feel! :jest: 

But really, this is an example of why I personally like racing (term loosely applied to myself) slotcars. There are so many different kinds of cars and ways to run them. 
Heck... I just might give running cars in the dark a shot...
Can't hurt my driving.....

scott


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## co_zee (Mar 28, 2005)

> We have to fix it by addressing much more fundamental human related issues.


Ever been to a 1:1 nationals such as the NHRA Hot Rod Nats in Indy??????? Seems they are pretty serious about why they are there, and they still manage to have fun. Ever notice what the difference is between their nationals and any of the HO nationals???????????? 

Ours are run with toys! The attitudes you describe are seemingly dictated by what we play with. Whether purpose built or not, HO cars are still toys and toys are meant for children. So is it any coincidence that childish attitudes arise? But on the other side of the coin, to have to appease to an attendees "fun" desire, well, that is no different than trying to appease the prima donna. I have been to many a race where even though playing with toys, racers acted like adults.

Used to be one raced the rules set forth by the race promoter or else ya didn't race, plain and simple. Racing was thriving then because for the most part, racers were adult about it and simply did what was needed to compete. Nowadays, everyone wants what they want or else they won't race. Although biased, you've even made that clear with your posts. You say we need not tend to the technical aspects but rather we need to make sure everyone has *fun* or that their feelings don't get hurt. Hogwash!!!

True racing isn't always fun. Sometimes your car breaks, that suxz. Sometimes you lose and that suxz too! Nobody likes to loose. It feels real good to win :woohoo: . Why else do we keep score??!!!!! Or even have separate classes???? Competitive spirits can run high and sometimes things can be a bit on the harsh side but once the dust settles, all has been forgotten. Yeah, this is racing. However, it sounds like you are trying to entertain a group of children. I was recently invited a race that was attended by more racers than either of this years nats. Rules were black and white as was the racing formats. The racing was serious and when the times were there, so was the commaraderie. No whinning or crying about not having this class or that one. Everyone was there to race. If all we are left with is the prima donna or those who need their fundamental human issues tended to, HO racing definitely isn't what it used to be. 

Maybe we need to quit calling them races and rename them "play dates"!!!!!!! :wave:


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Deep breath's now Greg,and slowly back away from the putor :wave: :wave: 
Just giving ya a hard time,i applaud your efforts. :thumbsup: 
Hey move it over to northern Montana,and i'll probably show up


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

AfxToo said:


> Trying to "fix" the national racing scene by tweaking the technical aspects of the sport is not going to work. We have to fix it by addressing much more fundamental human related issues.


Actually, that statement pretty much says it all about the current large scale racing scene. 

Well put, AFXToo. :thumbsup:


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## co_zee (Mar 28, 2005)

> We have to fix it by addressing much more fundamental human related issues.


Okay, I'll bite. What fundamental human related issues need addressed?


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Geez, someone could write a book Greg. Here's a couple for ya.

"Holy Grail" rules that are written based on what the so called "top dogs" have in _their _boxes. (selfisness)

The "Epoxy Wars" where grown men had to decide whether a hot stock arm actually _had_ to be epoxied, and then had to determine what was _enough_ epoxy. (Semantics)

The "Glue Wars" where grown men argued for weeks over the definition of "Glue" vs "Adhesive". (More semantics)

Every time a manufacturer is publicly singled out in a rulemaking decision. (bias)


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## co_zee (Mar 28, 2005)

SwamperGene said:


> Geez, someone could write a book Greg. Here's a couple for ya.
> 
> "Holy Grail" rules that are written based on what the so called "top dogs" have in _their _boxes. (selfisness)
> 
> ...



And the answer to what ever is in that book is simply just do what is right, not what ya want!! 


I don't see those as fundamental human issues (this in itself needs defining!!!!) The majority of the arguing was done by a limited few. Three of these are simply the failure of an organization to _clearly_ state what their rules are and then enforcing them. And the other one could be the result of an organization having clear rules and enforcing them. It is sad though that definitions such as those above would need clarification. 

And you forgot the "Solder Wars"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I do know some of the history in which the basis for the arguing, and attitudes towards one mfg is based. But, right or wrong, it needs to stop as this is what is destroying the hobby. It is no wonder another mfg has begun to go offer chassis specific parts and established an organization to support with class racing.


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## rudykizuty (Aug 16, 2007)

AfxToo said:


> Cozee, you're characterizations are spot on with describing the prima donna behaviors that have helped set the *organized national slot car racing scene* on a steady decline in participation. I know there are so called racers who require everything at an event meets their pristine little definition of what qualifies something "worthy of their participation." I recognize the type...
> 
> ... rails too high, rails too low, rails too uneven, power not good enough, can't run their favorite brand of this or that part, track layout not right, track layout not published enough ahead of time, don't like the venue, don't like the sponsor, don't like the payout structure, too hot, too cold, too humid, too dry, ... blah blah, blah, big ol' pile of excuses why they can't play the game, so they don't race or even show up.


If each of us all grew up getting everthing our way, all of society would be nothing more than a bunch of big spoiled brats and babies. 

It seems to me that a really good racer is not someone who should be inclined to gripe and moan and complain about every little thing they encounter at an event. I would think that the "best" racers are the ones who can run anywhere and under any conditions. Whatever differences that are encountered from one event to the next, however large or minute, should be seen as challenges to overcome that will test the driver's skills and abilities. Only developing that kind of flexibility improves one's skills. It's kind of like what my father, an old baseball man, used to say. There are plenty of guys in the minors who can hit a fastball. But learn to hit a curve son, and you're going places.

But these guys you've mentioned sound to me like a bunch of frauds. I can't imagine any racer staying away from an event he thinks he can win. They pass because they know they can only win under certain conditions. If they were any good, they'd be there....challenging themselves to win. 

Thanks for opening my eyes to this. I'm not even sure I would want to go to one of these prima donna events even as a casual observer merely interested in the hobby. 

Just two cents worth from probably the worst slot racer ever....LOL But hey, I'm still challenging myself to improve!!!!


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## co_zee (Mar 28, 2005)

rudykizuty said:


> If each of us all grew up getting everthing our way, all of society would be nothing more than a bunch of big spoiled brats and babies.
> 
> It seems to me that a really good racer is not someone who should be inclined to gripe and moan and complain about every little thing they encounter at an event. I would think that the "best" racers are the ones who can run anywhere and under any conditions. Whatever differences that are encountered from one event to the next, however large or minute, should be seen as challenges to overcome that will test the driver's skills and abilities. Only developing that kind of flexibility improves one's skills. It's kind of like what my father, an old baseball man, used to say. There are plenty of guys in the minors who can hit a fastball. But learn to hit a curve son, and you're going places.
> 
> ...


*Please* do not for a moment think that national or major HO racing events are attended by nothing but prima donna's as stated. Quite the contrary. The prima donnas mentioned are just a small representation of the racers out there in the hobby. Sadly, as with many other things, it is they who cry loudest that establish the reputation. Try a nationals just once and I think you'll find that the vast majority of those in attendance are those who are there to not only challenge themselves, but also challenge you. And with that challenge, they will help you better yourself whether it be advice, tech help, perhaps a loaner car, or just plain old encouragement. Much of the arguing stems from attempting to make things fair and level across the board. 

And remember, there are those who stand on the other side of the fence and cry and whine just as loud. Whether it be technical issues or human related issues (still don't know what these are!!), it is coming from different perspectives and experiences.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

> Please do not for a moment think that national or major HO racing events are attended by nothing but prima donna's as stated. Quite the contrary.


Yes, I totally agree. For the most part the people who do show up are absolutely great. Which is all the more reason why racers should show up to race regardless of the technical variables. Thick bodies, thin bodies, this type of magnet, that type of magnet, ... doesn't matter.



> I would think that the "best" racers are the ones who can run anywhere and under any conditions


Absolutely! You've got my vote. Pack up your box with one of each type car that's being run and join in on the fun. I would add another thing too: If the only way you can have fun is to win, then stay home. Winning a race is part building skill, part driving skill, and part luck. You never know which combination will prevail on any given day so come prepared to enjoy it regardless of the way things happen that day. There is always another day and the best days are the ones that are at the track with your friends.

What about human related issues and organized racing? I think we all have something to chime in about in this area. The challenge is to do it in a way that doesn't come across as sounding preachy or inciting a flame war. Perhaps a good area for chat follow-up. 

It may be better to ask the question, what is it about the organized racing scene that scares you away in the first place or keeps you from attending an organized race? Based on my experiences, almost every race is a very enjoyable experience. Maybe we just don't talk about the Good Things enough? 

Certainly, an extreme commute or lack of funds are no-brainers, but if that's not the case then what are the inhibitors and what would make you feel differently and maybe give it a look see?


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## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)

co_zee said:


> If there were a class, a national hard body inline class using your choice of G3(R), Tyco, Slottech, and or Wizzard cars, where one could earn a national championship title, would you attend?


Nope. Sorry -- not my bag.


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## co_zee (Mar 28, 2005)

> Maybe we just don't talk about the Good Things enough?


All depends on who you're listening to. There are gathering places on the net that, for the most part, are all about the good things. Yes, there are areas there where one can go to vent frustrations but we don't have to go there and read them.

I'll be the first one to say that at times I can get frustrated with the antics of a few and can get vocal about it. But for the most part, all I want to do is to see this hobby, one I have known since 1969, to grow and continue on. I will also be one of the first to say that the laid back, basement type racing can and usually provides the most fun. I have run far, far more laps this way than I have under any type of organized rules. But I also enjoy the competitive atmosphere of an organized race. Call me an adrenaline junkie if you want. Sometimes I get so nervous I shake so much I can barely hold a car, and I like it. And I don't care what class it is I'm racing. And even if I don't race, I can find just as much enjoyment planning and hosting an event or just simply marshaling so others can concentrate on racing. To me, it is all about the hobby. :wave: :thumbsup:


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## rudykizuty (Aug 16, 2007)

AfxToo, co zee,
Thanks for helping put this in better perspective for me after my mini-rant. I think we are all on the same page that fun should take precedence over winning. I'll admit that I began to develop the impression that maybe it wasn't that way at these events. 

I've developed an interest in this hobby for a number of reasons, but first and foremost was because I wanted to just enjoy myself. When it's not fun any more, well............you know the rest. 

Thanks again :hat:


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## co_zee (Mar 28, 2005)

rudykizuty said:


> AfxToo, co zee,
> Thanks for helping put this in better perspective for me after my mini-rant. I think we are all on the same page that fun should take precedence over winning. I'll admit that I began to develop the impression that maybe it wasn't that way at these events.
> 
> I've developed an interest in this hobby for a number of reasons, but first and foremost was because I wanted to just enjoy myself. When it's not fun any more, well............you know the rest.
> ...


Like I said, you can have fun racing but racing isn't always fun. I was brought up that if you are going to partake in an event, do so to win. Quite frankly, losing sucks and winning is where the fun is at. And the fun above all attitude isn't what I am pushing for, in fact, I somewhat disagree with it as you cannot please every one all the time. 

Also, I find that that the competitive spirit of some is higher than that of others and so goes the fun factor. To many times those who are not as competitive have the tendency to belittle those who are more intense about the racing. 

I think the definitions have all ready been made and are clear, we just need to implement them. If an event is more about the fun aspect, then call it what it is, a "Fun Run". If it leans the other way and is meant to focus more on the competition aspect, the call it a "Race". With Fun Runs it doesn't really matter who takes what place but a race requires placements. Even the Bible says to ". . . run the *race* in such a way as to _*win*_ the prize. . . ." When it is about the fun, then it is about the individual. When it is about the competition, it is about the spirit of racing. :thumbsup:


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

co_zee said:


> Like I said, you can have fun racing but racing isn't always fun. I was brought up that if you are going to partake in an event, do so to win. Quite frankly, losing sucks and winning is where the fun is at. And the fun above all attitude isn't what I am pushing for, in fact, I somewhat disagree with it as you cannot please every one all the time.
> 
> Also, I find that that the competitive spirit of some is higher than that of others and so goes the fun factor. To many times those who are not as competitive have the tendency to belittle those who are more intense about the racing.
> 
> I think the definitions have all ready been made and are clear, we just need to implement them. If an event is more about the fun aspect, then call it what it is, a "Fun Run". If it leans the other way and is meant to focus more on the competition aspect, the call it a "Race". With Fun Runs it doesn't really matter who takes what place but a race requires placements. Even the Bible says to ". . . run the *race* in such a way as to _*win*_ the prize. . . ." When it is about the fun, then it is about the individual. When it is about the competition, it is about the spirit of racing. :thumbsup:


Greg, with all due respect...that's gotta be the biggest crock I've heard in a while. Like many others, I race for fun _every time_. I also race to win _every time_. Maybe it's another example of AFXToo fundamental thingy...the ability to keep one's ego in check.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

This thread started off by asking the question about whether allowing a specific type of car body would get people out to a big race. I replied that I didn't think it really mattered and that more people decide to go or stay home based on other reasons, most of which have nothing to do with simple things like a type of body allowed. 

I believe most people really want to go to races at any level to have fun and socialize with other people with similar interests. Competition laced with camaraderie can be a lot of fun, for any hobby. At the end of the race, win or lose, it's still just a hobby. The national level races should be a celebration as much as the pinnacle of competition for people with a shared interest. I think that when we didn't have constant, real time communication it was more of a celebration. Now we have this medium that allows us to reach out and attract more people who otherwise would have not known about the hobby and the races. Too often, and you can decide what this level is, instead of reaching out, opening doors to invite others in, we're just scaring people away and allowing the vocal minority to use this medium to send the wrong message. All I'm saying is that this has nothing at all to do with hardbodies vs. lexans.


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Greg,you off your "meds" again,lol :wave: :wave: :wave:


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## co_zee (Mar 28, 2005)

After reading and reading our posts, I believe the problem is simply our venue of communication. I can see where we are saying at times pretty much the same thing, just from different perspectives. We each are basing our opinions upon our experiences. I am in no way saying that an event can not be fun and competitive at the same time. In fact, some of the most serious competition I have seen was at races focusing on providing a good time and good competition (Thanks Zipp!!). Granted, they were one a year invitationals so the attendees were selected but good times were had on and off the track. 5 classes of racing in 2 days followed by a serious spread (ribs, burgers, brats and all the extras!!), fireworks, beverages, live band, and awesome prizes. 30 attendees all there to have fun!!! To me, this is racing!!!!!!! Well worth a 6 hour round trip drive and a $20 entry fee.

However, from the local races I have attended, being nothing like the ones mentioned above, is where my view point of a "fun run" and a "race" come from. Attitudes, politics, whinning, crying, and poorly run yet they say their having fun!!!!! Perhaps it is different in your areas with your experiences differing but as I said, this has been my experience.

I do apologize for not expressing my points better. :wave:


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