# Why no Harryhausen styrene kits?



## RB (Jul 29, 1998)

It has always seemed like a no-brainer that the Harryhausen film characters would ideal subjects for styrene figure kits. Plenty of vinyl and resin, but no "mass-market" styrene. The licenses can't be that difficult to obtain. Anyone have any thoughts?


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## MonsterModelMan (Dec 20, 2000)

I have always felt that way too...if they were available in styrene...I'd buy them!

MMM


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## SUNGOD (Jan 20, 2006)

There's a few of us who've often suggested it but to no avail. I'd love to see Talos, the Cyclops, fighting skeleton/s, Gwangi etc and I think they'd make great kits.


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## Solium (Apr 24, 2005)

Funny you should bring this up. Jason and the Argonauts was just on TMC a few days ago and I was thinking of the same thing. 

I think we can count out Round 2 and Moebius. Best bet would be Pegasus or Monarch.


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

To be honest, its probably not so much licensing, but interest. Vinyl and resin is cheaper to make and those kits are done in small numbers for the 19 people interested in a Ymir. As neat as some of those monsters are, they can't come close to subjects like the Karloff Frankenstein as far as mass popularity goes. And, those subjects have been well covered in limited resin, vinyl, and even pre painted plastic figures already, so in many ways a kit is nothing "new" especially to a limited audience.


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## Solium (Apr 24, 2005)

I think there would be a much larger demand for Harryhausen stuff, which ppl been asking for, over Cruises WOTW alien which no one was asking for.


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## SUNGOD (Jan 20, 2006)

djnick66 said:


> To be honest, its probably not so much licensing, but interest. Vinyl and resin is cheaper to make and those kits are done in small numbers for the 19 people interested in a Ymir. As neat as some of those monsters are, they can't come close to subjects like the Karloff Frankenstein as far as mass popularity goes. And, those subjects have been well covered in limited resin, vinyl, and even pre painted plastic figures already, so in many ways a kit is nothing "new" especially to a limited audience.




I don't think there's any way of telling whether they'd sell or not until someone does them. 

A lot of people who'll buy plastic kits won't touch resin or vinyl. 

As for mass popularity compared to Karloffs Frankenstein well maybe but they're still well known characters amongst the type of people and age group who'd but these type of kits.


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

Solium said:


> I think there would be a much larger demand for Harryhausen stuff, which ppl been asking for, over Cruises WOTW alien which no one was asking for.


Hard to say... my step son, who is 21, liked the new movie (which sucks). He hates all the old Harryhausen stuff because of the crappy special effects (compared to what he thinks is good... CGI). If you look at a lot of the reviews on Amazon of the Harryhausen movies they get panned for bad acting and crude (by modern standards) special effects.

But again the WotW alien isnt styrene anyway is it? Its vinyl like the George pal version?


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## RB (Jul 29, 1998)

I think Djnick66 makes a good point with his stepson, but I also assume that most people his age are not kit buyers. To be honest, a good deal of kits being produced these days are being done for, ahem, "Men of a Certain Age". They're really the ones propelling the industry these days. I imagine the larger scales from manufacturers these days are due in part to the eyesight issues of said "MCAs". Most younger people I know really couldn't give a damn about, say, Karloff's Creature. I would imagine the buying demo for the Moebius kit skews relatively mature. Today's kit builders and modellers grew up with the Harryhausen films. If there ever was a time to exploit their interest, it'd probably be now!


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## Solium (Apr 24, 2005)

djnick66 said:


> Hard to say... my step son, who is 21, liked the new movie (which sucks). He hates all the old Harryhausen stuff because of the crappy special effects (compared to what he thinks is good... CGI). If you look at a lot of the reviews on Amazon of the Harryhausen movies they get panned for bad acting and crude (by modern standards) special effects.
> 
> But again the WotW alien isnt styrene anyway is it? Its vinyl like the George pal version?


Yes it looks like Pegasus isn't doing styrene monster kits. But at least their vinyl kits are priced at a styrene price. 

I don't expect the younger crowd to appreciate the Harryhausen stuff, thats understandable, but I do think the majority of kit purchasers are still us older folks! :tongue:


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## Jodet (May 25, 2008)

My 'fantasy kit', the one kit I would like to see come to market....the Rhedosaurus.


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## wolfman66 (Feb 18, 2006)

SUNGOD said:


> There's a few of us who've often suggested it but to no avail. I'd love to see Talos, the Cyclops, fighting skeleton/s, Gwangi etc and I think they'd make great kits.


Gwangi in Styrene!That would be cool as hell to see get made and sure as hell will buy couple of them.:thumbsup:


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## IanWilkinson (Apr 23, 2010)

I think what scares a lot of companys off is the fact lots of Harryhausen kits have been issued before.. i myself have painted over 20+ cyclops and i own 3 different Talos sculpts.. then there is the hydra kit i have also.. this would make an interesting plastic kit..


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## SUNGOD (Jan 20, 2006)

Solium said:


> Yes it looks like Pegasus isn't doing styrene monster kits. But at least their vinyl kits are priced at a styrene price.
> 
> I don't expect the younger crowd to appreciate the Harryhausen stuff, thats understandable, but I do think the majority of kit purchasers are still us older folks! :tongue:




Those vinyl kits should be a lot less expensive than the styrene ones. It costs a lot more to produce styrene kits so we should be asking why the vinyl ones aren't a lot cheaper.


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## SUNGOD (Jan 20, 2006)

wolfman66 said:


> Gwangi in Styrene!That would be cool as hell to see get made and sure as hell will buy couple of them.:thumbsup:



Me too! I wonder if that could be done unlicensed and sold as a dinosaur.


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## miniature sun (May 1, 2005)

djnick66 said:


> Vinyl and resin is cheaper to make and those kits are done in small numbers for the 19 people interested in a Ymir.


Wow, you mean there's 18 others out there with an Ymir in their stash? I thought I was the only one...:thumbsup:


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## rkoenn (Dec 18, 2007)

It is like DJ said that you have to be realistic about the market and the market is simply not big enough to support the production costs of a styrene kit. While I think and hope, at least I suspect Moebius is making money, the market will support things like LIS, Battlestar, classic monsters, and some currently related vehicles and characters, the only likely purchasers en masse, most of us "old" guys mass more than when we were younger, are us "old" guys. I don't think you will find many of the already small number of young modelers too interested in Harryhausen creations. So from a mass market, styrene kit perspective without charging an exorbitant fee I think the business proposition would fail. Now the garage guys who must and do sell at very elevated prices might make a small amount of money. However they do it as much for the love of the product as the money and likely, unless they are really big, won't have to deal with licensing fees and other costs. As McDee so succinctly puts it, It's not just a hobby, it's an obsession! For the big styrene guys it is a business first and businesses are supposed to make money.

Bob K.


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## SUNGOD (Jan 20, 2006)

rkoenn said:


> It is like DJ said that you have to be realistic about the market and the market is simply not big enough to support the production costs of a styrene kit. While I think and hope, at least I suspect Moebius is making money, the market will support things like LIS, Battlestar, classic monsters, and some currently related vehicles and characters, the only likely purchasers en masse, most of us "old" guys mass more than when we were younger, are us "old" guys. I don't think you will find many of the already small number of young modelers too interested in Harryhausen creations. So from a mass market, styrene kit perspective without charging an exorbitant fee I think the business proposition would fail. Now the garage guys who must and do sell at very elevated prices might make a small amount of money. However they do it as much for the love of the product as the money and likely, unless they are really big, won't have to deal with licensing fees and other costs. As McDee so succinctly puts it, It's not just a hobby, it's an obsession! For the big styrene guys it is a business first and businesses are supposed to make money.
> 
> Bob K.




Didn't Monarch's Nosferatu sell out? I might be wrong but surely if a character from a very old silent film can sell then maybe Harryhausen subjects might be in with a chance even if Nosferatu was unlicensed. I'm not saying Harryhausen kits would sell that well but the simple fact is we don't know whether they would or not until someone tries.


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

Nosferatu is not hard to find in either issue. Im sure it sold pretty well to its intended audience. BUT Nosferatu is infinitely more sellable than, say, the Minoton or Quintopus hands down. Nosferatu is also in the public domain, which means no licensing fees


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## TAY666 (Jan 8, 2000)

Monarch does very small production runs. Only a few thousand I think.
Which can work without things like licesning costs.
But I am sure that Ray commands a decent amount of cash to sign off on a project.

Also, there is the fact that a lot of his subjects just wouldn't work well in styrene.
Lots of seams to clean up, no undercuts in the tooling, etc. Make it hard to translate his subjects well into a styren kit.


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## apls (Dec 5, 2005)

I am now working on a Geometric Cyclops that had been in my basement for over twelve years. I also see no need to bring these out in styrene. There too many underserved figures that have never seen the light of day model wise. Vinyl captures more detail than styrene. Dr. Phibes, Incredible Two Headed Transplant, celbrating their 40th anniversaries this year, how 'bout them?


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## Bruce Bishop (Jan 17, 1999)

A company called X-Plus put out quite a selection of Harryhausen vinyl figures and resin pre-paints a few years ago. Here are the ones I managed to get, when I finally learned they were out. They also had a set of larger vinyl figures but I didn't manage to get any of them. The vinyl figures I did get are all around 7 or so inches tall. The resin ones are smaller.

With all the items they put out, I don't know why either vinyl or styrene kits wouldn't sell. The ones from X-Plus seemed to disappear very quickly.

CENTAUR - X-PLUS VINYL 
CYCLOPS - X-PLUS VINYL
DRAGON - X-PLUS VINYL 
GIANT SQUID - X-PLUS SMALL RESIN PRE-PAINTS
GRIFFIN - X-PLUS VINYL 
IT CAME FROM BENEATH THE SEA - X-PLUS SMALL RESIN PRE-PAINTS
KALI - X-PLUS VINYL 
MINOTON - X-PLUS VINYL
PHORORHACOS - X-PLUS SMALL RESIN PRE-PAINTS
TALOS - X-PLUS VINYL
YMIR ON LAB TABLE - X-PLUS SMALL RESIN PRE-PAINTS
YMIR - X-PLUS VINYL


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## SUNGOD (Jan 20, 2006)

apls said:


> I am now working on a Geometric Cyclops that had been in my basement for over twelve years. I also see no need to bring these out in styrene. There too many underserved figures that have never seen the light of day model wise. Vinyl captures more detail than styrene. Dr. Phibes, Incredible Two Headed Transplant, celbrating their 40th anniversaries this year, how 'bout them?




You could use that argument about many other subjects....that they've been done in vinyl or resin. As I said, not everyone likes those mediums. 

And would Dr Phibes and the 2 headed transplant sell more than the better known Harryhausen subjects......I might be wrong but I seriously doubt it.


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## SUNGOD (Jan 20, 2006)

TAY666 said:


> Monarch does very small production runs. Only a few thousand I think.
> Which can work without things like licesning costs.
> But I am sure that Ray commands a decent amount of cash to sign off on a project.
> 
> ...




Apart from maybe the skeletons I really can't see why Harryhausen subjects would work less in styrene. In fact I'd say it's the opposite. Something like Talos or Gwangi looks no more difficult to mould to me than Monarchs kits. Look at the detail on Sinbad or the Ghost or Nosferatu.


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## SUNGOD (Jan 20, 2006)

djnick66 said:


> Nosferatu is not hard to find in either issue. Im sure it sold pretty well to its intended audience. BUT Nosferatu is infinitely more sellable than, say, the Minoton or Quintopus hands down. Nosferatu is also in the public domain, which means no licensing fees




Well Minoton and the Quintopus aren't really the better known Harryhausen characters are they....but everyone remembers the skeletons and Talos in Jason. Nearly everyone on the planet must have seen Jason.


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## IanWilkinson (Apr 23, 2010)

I have the X-Plus 7 skeleton warriors from Jason and the Argonauts - these are cold cast porcelain.. i allways wondered why they just never used them in styrene.. it would have cut costs i would have thought?


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

frankly, due to the cost of styrene, the character has to be so popular, so well known, that you could walk into any given store... a hardware store, donut shop, book store, etc..... mention the characters name, and have at least one person recognize it for it to be known well enough to justify a styrene kit. 
we here are the die hards. we KNOW all the harryhausen characters... heck we know who harryhausen IS, and that puts us WAY more familiar with them than the general public, and if a significant proportion of the G.P. isnt familiar with the character, its simply not viable as a styrene kit.


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## btbrush (Sep 20, 2010)

There's alot of subject matter that just won't lend itself to being produced in styrene partly due to molding restraints, undercuts, part count and the like. Then again is the cost. A typical mold costs on the average of $200,000. Have to sell alot of kits just to break even. I personally am glad there isn't a plastic Rhedosaurus because of the lack of detail we'd have to accept. And you have to be a bit of a psychic to produce a kit. Since it usually takes about a year to get it on the shelves, what's hot now may not be in a year.
I'm just saying.
Bruce


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

AFAIK molds cost more in the neighborhood of $800,000 based on a FSM article from at least 15 years ago when they featured the AMT factory.


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## IanWilkinson (Apr 23, 2010)

$800,000 for a mold?.. what is involved to put the price up this high?.. i used to work in a plastics factory with various molds and new ones produced for phone cases etc were only a fraction of that?


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

Yeah how many parts are in a phone case? two? I assume that total includes R&D, and everything from start to finish.


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## Solium (Apr 24, 2005)

I never understood why some figures can translate to styrene while others cannot. Why was there no problem with Aurora's Superman, Robin, Monarch's Sinbad, yet The colossal beast and Moebius Conan kits cannot be made in styrene? I read all about undercuts and such. But that's techie jargon to me. 

Harryhausen figures were not all that animated to begin with, and I don't see how providing a "classic" pose in styrene would be anymore of an issue than say Aurora's Robin, with that twisted body. 

Regarding what will sell and what won't. I think you just have to look at Big Franky and Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde. Two kits Polar Lights said would never sell well.


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## rkoenn (Dec 18, 2007)

I know production of the molds themselves is very expensive. Many years back a friend who had a small model rocket business said it cost about $50K for a mold to simply make a large model rocket nose cone. Now try and amortize that over a predicted run of nose cones. I tend to believe with the present day computer and 3-dimensional machining capabilities we have that costs for molds likely have gone down. But I am also certain they are still very high. I think DJ that you've said a good production run for somebody like Moebius or Monarch is 50K units? You certainly need to feel very comfortable about how many you will sell then to make certain you pay off those molds and production costs.

Bob K.


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## Moebius (Mar 15, 2007)

rkoenn said:


> I know production of the molds themselves is very expensive. Many years back a friend who had a small model rocket business said it cost about $50K for a mold to simply make a large model rocket nose cone. Now try and amortize that over a predicted run of nose cones. I tend to believe with the present day computer and 3-dimensional machining capabilities we have that costs for molds likely have gone down. But I am also certain they are still very high. I think DJ that you've said a good production run for somebody like Moebius or Monarch is 50K units? You certainly need to feel very comfortable about how many you will sell then to make certain you pay off those molds and production costs.
> 
> Bob K.


If we could have sold 50k units of everythign we've done I would have retired already! That's not a realistic number for any of the non-military/non-automotive kits out there. I would have to say that not even back in the Polar Lights heyday they ever sold 50k units of anything other than something extremely popular or automotive related.


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## rkoenn (Dec 18, 2007)

Well Frank that certainly says one thing about our society, all the electronics and gadgets that our instant gratification culture loves these days has played havoc with companies like yours. I know that all my nephews have no real interest at all in building and creating something themselves. They spend all their time on video games or Facebook or stuff. They want and feel entitled to be entertained. In our age we did most of that entertaining for ourselves. Unfortunately not much of that any longer. If I just bought premade models to set on a shelf I wouldn't do it. It is building and creating and putting my own effort into it that makes it worthwhile. And thank goodness you make enough to make it worthwhile for you and us Frank. I've picked up almost everything you've released so far and am anxiously awaiting your future products. You honestly have helped make that second childhood after 50 a reality.

Bob K.


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## ChrisW (Jan 1, 1970)

One comment about the X-Plus Harryhausen figures. You could find them at toy and collectible shows, usually at a discount (if the dealer was honest) because they were dumped into liquidation. In fact you can STILL buy many of the figures at M&J variety online. Prices will vary because M&J ups the price as their inventory goes down. Actually, you can buy some old Polar Lights stock there as well, but again, because of their low inventory, the prices are artificially inflated.
My point is, here is a company that tried to sell the Harryhausen figures (as prepainted figures - always more sellable than a kit) and ended up sell off their inventory to a liquidator...


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

rkoenn said:


> I think DJ that you've said a good production run for somebody like Moebius or Monarch is 50K units?
> 
> Bob K.


Uh no never said that at all. I know many kits now are run as low as 2000 for some of the Revell reissues. I think the norm is somewhere around 20K?


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## SUNGOD (Jan 20, 2006)

ChrisW said:


> One comment about the X-Plus Harryhausen figures. You could find them at toy and collectible shows, usually at a discount (if the dealer was honest) because they were dumped into liquidation. In fact you can STILL buy many of the figures at M&J variety online. Prices will vary because M&J ups the price as their inventory goes down. Actually, you can buy some old Polar Lights stock there as well, but again, because of their low inventory, the prices are artificially inflated.
> My point is, here is a company that tried to sell the Harryhausen figures (as prepainted figures - always more sellable than a kit) and ended up sell off their inventory to a liquidator...




I read before that those X Plus figures sold quite well and that's why they made a lot of different ones. If they didn't sell I don't think they would have produced so many different characters.


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## SUNGOD (Jan 20, 2006)

Solium said:


> I never understood why some figures can translate to styrene while others cannot. Why was there no problem with Aurora's Superman, Robin, Monarch's Sinbad, yet The colossal beast and Moebius Conan kits cannot be made in styrene? I read all about undercuts and such. But that's techie jargon to me.
> 
> Harryhausen figures were not all that animated to begin with, and I don't see how providing a "classic" pose in styrene would be anymore of an issue than say Aurora's Robin, with that twisted body.
> 
> Regarding what will sell and what won't. I think you just have to look at Big Franky and Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde. Two kits Polar Lights said would never sell well.



Exactly. Harryhausen figures don't look any more complicated to me than any of the old Aurora kits. Look at the Moebius Invisible Man too and how many parts that has, plus the clever way in which the bandages were done.


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## Solium (Apr 24, 2005)

SUNGOD said:


> I read before that those X Plus figures sold quite well and that's why they made a lot of different ones. If they didn't sell I don't think they would have produced so many different characters.


Very true. The New BSG line of action figures bombed. They didn't release half of what was actually announced. But I assume the Moebius kits are selling well.

Also I don't think its fair to base the saleability of a model kit based on its action figure counter part. How many of Monarch's generic Sinbad kits would have sold as a prepaint toy? I bet less than the styrene kit.


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

AFAIK while there may be some overlap the people that buy the pre painted toys dont buy and build models. I always found that to be the case at my shop. Same with die cast. A lot of people buy the painted stuff because they cant/dont want to build and paint a model.


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## TAY666 (Jan 8, 2000)

One thing about the X-Plus stuff.
I don't think it was ever licensed, so they didn't have to pay those costs.
What makes me say that is what I heard at WF the last time Ray was there.
I guess he wouldn't sign any of the X-plus items, and wouldn't even talk about the subject. So the rumor was they made them without his consent.

Tooling costs - while some of the methods of actually cutting the tools have advanced and become cheaper. The investment in those new methods add cost. The high price of the metals really add costs. Especially beryllium. Which is often used in molds for things like model kits, due to it's heat transfer characteristics.
And don't forget the labor costs, the R&D, the engineering, etc.

As to the subjects translating well to styrene.
Yeah, it can be done. But not very well. Figures are one thing, but when you start getting into creatures with scales and lots of texture, then you start loosing a lot of detail.
Figures, for the most part, are pretty smooth. Creatures, not so much.
Look at all the work that had to be done in the Gorgo WIP thread, to make that kit presentable.
Something like the rhedosaurus is going to have a big seam running down it's belly and through it's head. Not to mention through each of it's legs. Etc.
And everywhere there is a seam, there is going to be softer details near that seam so the part can be ejected from the mold. You cannot have deep details near the edges when doing styrene molding.
Yeah, if someone did make one, I would buy it if the price was low enough.
But I enjoy doing all that putty work.
But I would much rather do a well detailed resin or vinyl one.


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## SUNGOD (Jan 20, 2006)

TAY666 said:


> One thing about the X-Plus stuff.
> I don't think it was ever licensed, so they didn't have to pay those costs.
> What makes me say that is what I heard at WF the last time Ray was there.
> I guess he wouldn't sign any of the X-plus items, and wouldn't even talk about the subject. So the rumor was they made them without his consent.
> ...




Ignoring the pitfalls of resin and vinyl of course such as it falling apart after a while, vinyl disintegrating after a while (it does happen), sticking it together can be a right hassle, bits missing when you get them in the post, etc, etc. 

I've built a few resin and vinyl models and building most styrene kits is not 
only much easier (especialy the new ones) but it's a lot more enjoyable and the detail on most new styrene figure kits is often better than resin kits (take a look at some of the new 1/35 figures from Dragon). 

Gorgo might have a few seams but that's not to say all new models have bad seams. I wouldn't be surprised if Gorgo isn't too bad anyway.


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## ChrisW (Jan 1, 1970)

Ray didn't have any rights to his characters - they were licensed from the respective studios (Columbia?), and he wasn't included in the deal. So he wouldn't sign them.
Say you wanted to license an ET model. You'd arrange the license through Universal studio, not Carl Rambaldi. Same thing.


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## TAY666 (Jan 8, 2000)

SUNGOD said:


> Ignoring the pitfalls of resin and vinyl of course such as it falling apart after a while, vinyl disintegrating after a while (it does happen), sticking it together can be a right hassle, bits missing when you get them in the post, etc, etc.


Wow!
Didn't know you had so much trouble with garage kits.
I've never had one fall apart.
Also never had any vinyl disintegrate either. Now, it can have a chemical reaction when placed against certain other plastics and sort of melt. Never had it happen to me personally, but I have heard about it.

Sure, garage kits can be a little more involved when doing the assembly, but that balances out with less clean-up once assembled.


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## Dave P (Jan 5, 2005)

^^I agree. Most resin figures are 4-6 parts plus any extra details. Clean up of a good resin kit only requires scraping with the back of an Xacto blade and a little sandpaper. I've had some that were a nightmare because of poor castings, but I've also had quite a few that only took 10-15 minutes to clean up. Earthbound's Return of the Fly bust was so clean I actually spent more time finding the mold seams than it took to clean them up. I've never experienced that with a styrene figure! I know there are some very nice small scale plastic military figures out there, and some really terrific kits from Moebius and others, but overall flexible molds allow uncompromised sculpts and a lot more detail than is possible with steel tooling.

The only pitfall I've ever experienced with vinyl is the kit will sag over time if you do not fill it with something like plaster or expandable foam. The instructions for early kits such as Horizon, Screamin', Geometric, etc. even suggested stuffing them with wadded up newspaper.

For me, the only reason to prefer styrene is the cost. You could buy 3-4 plastic figures for the cost of one good garage kit. But it all comes down to personal preference and what you are comfortable working with.


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## TAY666 (Jan 8, 2000)

Dave P said:


> For me, the only reason to prefer styrene is the cost. You could buy 3-4 plastic figures for the cost of one good garage kit. But it all comes down to personal preference and what you are comfortable working with.


I do still enjoy styrene kits.
Both for nostalgic reasons, and for the fact that nothing beats the fealling of working with styrene.
But some subjects just lend themselves better to garage kits.
Godzillas are soooo much better in GK form. Better poses. Better skin textures. Better detail. Better facial expressions.
I still enjoy styrene zilla kits, because I enjoy the challenge, and I can get 10 of them (or more) for same price as one of the GKs.
But that is only on the secondary market. Where I can snag one for $10 or so. Not going to find them at that price when they are new.


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## Dave P (Jan 5, 2005)

Very true. I was never really bitten by the nostalgia bug. I grew up building cars and spaceships.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

I don't think any of my vinyl figures have ever sagged. Of course I'd need to compare them now to what they looked like 10-20 years ago, but I can't.

And when I tried shooting expanding foam into some, it expanded so much the parts swelled up. My Geometric Worf's face actually popped out like one of those squeezy troll doll's eyes. So I don't do that any more.


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## TAY666 (Jan 8, 2000)

I don't use foam either.
I use water putty in the bottom, and just stuff the top full of plastic grocery bags.


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## xsavoie (Jun 29, 1999)

When you put expanding foam,you are supposed to leave an opening large enough for the excess foam to spread out.Wait a couple of days to make sure the foam is cured before closing the figure.It might not be necessary to fill the figure completely with foam,but just mostly.


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