# Ot..a Tragedy....street Racing Deaths



## JordanZ870 (Nov 25, 2004)

I read this and I am still shaking.:freak:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080217/ap_on_re_us/drag_racing_deaths

Say a prayer, friends.


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## Crimnick (May 28, 2006)

More like poetic justice...too many times it's innocent passers by who get killed by these idiots...

Maybe next time someone mentions street racing they will get hate stares instead of rolling off to race....on public streets...

Racing is for race tracks and controlled conditions.....period.

Sorry...no sympathy from me...


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## [email protected] (Jan 25, 2007)

While i agree with Crim completely on street racing......... i don't believe in that kind of justice. They've got my prayers also.... mj


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## JordanZ870 (Nov 25, 2004)

Ok, so pray for the families who lost loved ones.


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

I've been at more then my share of street races over the years,and what i'd like to know,is how did a Crown Vic sneak on a bunch of guys that fast it could hit them.
When we we're street racing,somebody was always watching both directions of the road,so how could a white car,that sure looks like a cop car to me,even after dark sneak up that fast with nobody seeing it,i think there's more to this story then you'll ever get from the media.
Almost smells of a set-up if you ask me,the Crown Vic's running with no lights,and no charges were laid,somethings up with the story,and it smells slightly fishy


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## win43 (Aug 28, 2006)

I feel sorry for the innocent people and their families. These street racers should have taken some measures to keep the racing safe.

Back in the day I was privie to a lot of street racing that took place in Newark, NJ. Friends of mine were always racing for big bucks or more (pinks). BUT they ALWAYS had blocker cars driving real slow further back on the road to make sure no unwanted cars got through when the races were were being run. I never saw anyone hurt physically, but i'm sure some cried after losing their race. I'm not condoning street racing, BUT it can be done safely.


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## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)

OK I just read the story and those people were idiots. They were standing - standing - on a road with a speed limit of 55 mph in, the dark, in a cloud of tire smoke.

Duuuuuh.

The one guy was 61, his 27 year-old daughter was there, and she had _HER_ daughter there with her. So the whole family is a bunch of idiots, apparently, as no one thought for one second, "Hmmm, maybe this is a bad idea."

Unfortunate accident, sure. Sympathy, umm no way. If this many people wanted to watch a drag race they should have taken it to the local drag strip. Everyone would be still be alive.

Chalk one up to Darwinism.


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

*Assault with a deadly weapon*

Fast and Furious? Grand Theft Auto? 

I cant help but lay some blame on the "glamorization" of this behavior. More like "Fast and Finality" and "Grand Theft Death"

Guess what? No replays! Game over! Very sad... for the victims and families.

Cars can be a deadly weapon. Might just as well give them a loaded gun. Every schmuck thinks that they can just hop in a car and drive at speed like it's a GD playstation. Most of these morons can barely handle a box stock grocery getter let alone handle a hot car when it gets out of shape. Sorry! No reset button. Yer upside down, on fire and you've killed someone. 

No hand wringing here, I'm with 'Doba. Some where out there Darwin is shaking his head and glaring with reproach.


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## SplitPoster (May 16, 2006)

Hornet said:


> I've been at more then my share of street races over the years,and what i'd like to know,is how did a Crown Vic sneak on a bunch of guys that fast it could hit them.
> When we we're street racing,somebody was always watching both directions of the road,so how could a white car,that sure looks like a cop car to me,even after dark sneak up that fast with nobody seeing it,i think there's more to this story then you'll ever get from the media.
> Almost smells of a set-up if you ask me,the Crown Vic's running with no lights,and no charges were laid,somethings up with the story,and it smells slightly fishy


Ditto Hornet.

So sorry for all involved, but I have a cousin who has been involved with street racing over the years. Radio and cell phone spotters, deserted roads, the whole nine yards. I haven't done it, wouldn't do it, don't approve of it - but I agree with Hornet. At a local dirt track nearby somebody got angry, ran into somebody else with a 4 wheeler. Went to jail. Somebody decides to take matters into their own hands at an illegal street race? Call csi - one more reason to race, drift, whatever at a sanctioned event, not on the street. Liability, regulations, and country club tracks have made it a lot tougher to get on a race track legally, but it still beats the alternative.


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## Crimnick (May 28, 2006)

joez870 said:


> Ok, so pray for the families who lost loved ones.


Read the article again..

I'll start with undisputed facts:

These people were street racing or active and willing observers.

It was much later than 3 am....just before dawn in fact (according to the article)

The speed limit there is 55 mph.

There where adults present with children.

The crown Vic was in LAWFUL use of the highway (the reason for no charges)

The crowd of people rushed into the street.

I know it sounds harsh....but every out of all the people involved.....the only one not looking for trouble was the driver of the Vic...

As to the "families"...

here are some pertent quotes:

"There were just bodies everywhere; it was horrible," said Crystal Gaines, 27, of Indian Head, whose father was killed.

About 50 people were watching the race, Gaines said, and she saw the Crown Victoria approach without its lights on. She grabbed her daughter, pulling the girl to safety. But her father, William Gaines Sr., 61, had a broken leg, and was not able to get away in time. Afterward, she found his body on the road."

---------------------------------
Now read that again...slowly...

Gain is 27....she had to pull her DAUGHTER from the street....

You think her daughter might just possibly be a minor?
----------------------------------

More family:

Her brother, William Gaines Jr., was also there. The car came through so fast that "it just ripped people apart," he said.

"I didn't even see the car. All I heard was stuff breaking," he said.

-------------------------------------------

So it seems damn near the whole family was there...three generations...

---------------------------------

John Courtney said his brother, Mark, 33, of St. Mary's County, also was among the dead. He identified his brother from a digital image police had taken.

"He liked going to the race track, watching races," Courtney said. "It's going to take a toll on my family for a long time."

------------------------------------------------------

The race track!?!...this was a public street...

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Marion Neal feared her 42-year-old brother was among the dead and was awaiting images from the police.

"It's a tragedy," she said. "I don't like racing, but that was his hobby." 

-----------------------------------------

Street racing isnt a hobby...it's asking the reaper to cash your check.....sooner or later...he will...

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But relatives said some of the victims often went to see races held late at night on isolated stretches of road.

"It's a problem," said Denee Hines, whose mother owns a hair salon only a few hundred feet from the site of the accident. "Everyone knows about it, but I've never heard of it getting this bad." 

-----------------------------------------

Again..."they went often" and "everyone knows about it".....

Sorry...still no sympathy for anyone except the driver of the vic.

That person has to live with the death of these idiots.

And clearly law enforcment dropped the ball on this as well....as clearly the spot is known for street racing...

I'm no angel...I been riding motorcycles and driving fast cars damn near my whole life...I raced my share of street races...done my share of wheelies....but those days are long gone...too many dead friends...

I may still speed here and there..but only when conditions and locations warrant...

Anyone with half a brain, a couple bucks,a decent machine, and phone can get some track time these days...

My kids know if they get caught so much as trying to beat someone from a light their car wont just get taken away....well take a trip to the local boneyard and crush the damn thing...

If they want to race there is a local SCCA group and norwalk and miland are only 45 minutes away in each direction....

There is also a race track in the basement:thumbsup:

I've found one has to be very careful with what one looks for in life...life has a way of giving it to you .....just not in the way YOU intended...

These people made a series of bad choices, over and over....just because nothing bad had happened before....that reinforced their behaviour to make those same bad choices again...until tragedy strikes...

Then everyone stands around wondering what the hell happend...

Sometimes hindsight isnt the only thing 20/20....sometimes FOREsight is as well...

When Grandpa, daughter, and grandkid are turning up at a street race in the wee hours of the morning...that family has issues to start with...

They were looking for excitment....well...they got it in spades...

What a man wants...a man gets....


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## valongi (Dec 23, 2007)

If you're taking a car on a public highway to drive really really fast and wreckless, do it on a remote road. Don't put other cars in danger. I hear about 20 year old idiots who wipe out a car filled with a family because they feel invincible, and it pisses me off. One day that could be ANY of us.

I have no sympathy for the wreckless drivers, but do for the family they leave behind.


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## SplitPoster (May 16, 2006)

Sorry Crimnick, you have a very valid point but if I carry that logic out to its end, then anybody illegally jaywalking is fair game. That may sound outlandish, but I have met some self righteous folks at who thought that way. Those folks shouldn't have been there, but they did not deserve to die.

As for getting on the track, I have been an SCCA member for 25 years, and was licensed to race. I will be again. NASA came along trying to make it easier to get on the track, it is NOT. PCA, BMWCCA, all kinds of clubs.... Autocrossing, spend 6 hours for 2 timed minutes in a parking lot.... options to find something in the middle haven't been sucessful - that is a whole nuther discussion. There is no road course equivalent to local roundy-rounds and drag strips. Slots are fun, but there is absolutely no comparison whatsoever in a million light years with (legally) road racing.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

This is a complex subject. The city where I grew up tried to quell street racing by having legitimate, sanctioned events once a month where they'd block off a road and try to keep it safe. Needless to say liability and insurance issues associated with the city "backing" this initiative eventually killed it. Plus people still raced illegally. 

Street racing is going to happen no matter what you do to try and avoid it. There's a deep rooted desire for some folks to drive fast, and like it or not, there's a thriving industry supporting these activities. Nobody really needs a factory stock car with 400, 500, or 600+ HP under the hood for the 8 to 5 commute. Nobody really needs that turbo, supercharger, nitrous, or headers in their street machine. But stupid fast cars and the smell of burning rubber still matters to a lot of folks and is still part of the American (and other countries) embodiment of personal freedom. 

This incident truly shows that personal freedom does not come without a price, and tragic consequences can still occur when common sense and responsibility is replaced by adrenaline powered emotion. Very sad.


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

I don't know about the laws stateside,but up here in Canuckville,it's against the law to drive after dark with no headlights on,so as far as i can determine from the story the guy in the Crown Vic,should be the one held responsible,i'm pretty sure it's still against the law to run into pedestern,whether their standing in a cloud of tire smoke or not


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## [email protected] (Jan 25, 2007)

AfxToo said:


> This is a complex subject.


Yes there are many people who feel that "legal racing" Daytona, F1, Lemans ect. is dangerous, immoral, and wasteful. They have no respect for something that many of us here enjoy. And they have no sympathy for the people involved in it. They would say that the participants "deserve what they get" for being involved. We mourn Clark, Sachs, Mclaren, and others for their contributions to Motorsport. Others do not. Street racing is stupid and reckless (IMHO) but I am not willing to judge what people deserve. 

I'll stick to slot racing. The only thing getting killed is my wallet. LOL
mj


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## Crimnick (May 28, 2006)

SplitPoster said:


> Sorry Crimnick, you have a very valid point but if I carry that logic out to its end, then anybody illegally jaywalking is fair game. That may sound outlandish, but I have met some self righteous folks at who thought that way. Those folks shouldn't have been there, but they did not deserve to die.


No where did I say that anyone "deserved to die"....what I said is that their foolish actions resulted in a predictible outcome, and that doesnt generate any sympathy in me...


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## Crimnick (May 28, 2006)

Hornet said:


> I don't know about the laws stateside,but up here in Canuckville,it's against the law to drive after dark with no headlights on,so as far as i can determine from the story the guy in the Crown Vic,should be the one held responsible,i'm pretty sure it's still against the law to run into pedestern,whether their standing in a cloud of tire smoke or not


Police have allready determined the driver of the Vic not at fault....

NOR the driver of the Semi- truck that also drove through the crash scene...

"The combination of the smoke and the dark morning likely meant the unsuspecting driver could not see the crowd, police said. A tractor- trailer that came by shortly afterward may also have struck someone on the roadside as it tried to avoid the crash scene, according to investigators." 

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8URPU884&show_article=1

So tell me again who's fault it was....

And here's more on the area...known for 20 years as a problem..

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080217/ap_on_re_us/drag_racing_deaths


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## [email protected] (Jan 25, 2007)

Here is a question for every one: Today many of us will be watching Daytona. Driving cars at amazing speeds will be glorifyed. Men will be driving cars at speeds verging on 200 mph. Skilled professionals, but still a very dangerous sport, with a ever present probability of being seriously injured or killed. The participants know the risk, and embrace it as part of their job. Should we feel sympathy for these folks and their friends/family if they are killed. Some would call it a predictable out come of this activity. My vote would be yes. But i'm a softy.... I feel some sympathy even evolutionairly disadvantaged. Just my OP. mj


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## SplitPoster (May 16, 2006)

Hmmm, the story isn't the end of it. So because it's smoky or foggy, and I drive "beyond my headlights", or beyond the extent of visibility, it isn't my fault if I hit somebody or something? Don't think so. 

mj is exactly right, everything we do every day has some sort of risk, some more than others. No sympathy huh? Sports are one thing, last year a college coach was killed when he was hit in the temple with a line drive. Not a tragedy? I know people who are afraid to fly - would they argue that anyone killed in a aircraft accident gets what they and their families deserve, and scowl at the whole situation? Not likely. I drive over 40K a year working, I guess that means whatever happens to me behind the wheel is my fault, exposing myself to long hours on the road LOL. Most folks are just not that way.


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## Crimnick (May 28, 2006)

SplitPoster said:


> Hmmm, the story isn't the end of it. So because it's smoky or foggy, and I drive "beyond my headlights", or beyond the extent of visibility, it isn't my fault if I hit somebody or something? Don't think so.


When the diver of the Vic is charged with vehicular homicide...then you got a point.

I dont find it "reasonable" to find 50 people standing in the middle of the highway at 3:30 Am...

a deer maybe...

And that brings the point...would that driver be charged for hitting a deer in the middle of the night?

Der....no...

You are letting emotion play with reason because of what was hit...not the conditions in which it happened...



> mj is exactly right, everything we do every day has some sort of risk, some more than others. No sympathy huh? Sports are one thing, last year a college coach was killed when he was hit in the temple with a line drive. Not a tragedy? I know people who are afraid to fly - would they argue that anyone killed in a aircraft accident gets what they and their families deserve, and scowl at the whole situation? Not likely. I drive over 40K a year working, I guess that means whatever happens to me behind the wheel is my fault, exposing myself to long hours on the road LOL. Most folks are just not that way.


Strawman argument...

All this has nothing to do with the very real situation and deaths that resulted from these peoples foolish actions.....

Why the big effort to excuse these illegal acts that resulted in death?


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Correct me if i'm wrong,but i didn't know it was illegal to stand in the middle of a road,but i do know it's illegal to drive after dark with no lights,especially when you're coming up to a undetermined haze hanging over the road.
I'm still wondering,if a cop was driving the Crown Vic,and was he trying to bust up the activity that was going on,that would explain the running with no lights,and was he thinking he could catch the taillights disappearing up the road,and being as how he was concentrating on catching the bad guy street racers,did he even notice the people on the road.
Sure looks like a cop car if you ask me,un-marked white Crown Vic,they're a very common car in Police forces across North America,it would also maybe explain the fact no charges have been laid against the driver of the Crown Vic.
You guys spin it anyway you want,but i still figure the people in the middle of the road,had as much right to be there as a car running with no lights after dark.
I still think there is a whole lot more to this story then what you're getting from the media,like maybe it was a cop driving the car,just an off the wall theory,but it'd be about the only explanation i could see for the driver getting off scot free:wave:


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## gordonmoney (Jan 15, 2002)

Hornet, we'll have to see how it plays out but my first thoughts were like yours-that looks like a cop car and why was he driving with no lights. Beyond that-while I bet everybody on this board lives in a glass house in regards to cars and speed, sooner or later this becomes a predictable result of this activity.


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## Crimnick (May 28, 2006)

Hornet said:


> Correct me if i'm wrong,but i didn't know it was illegal to stand in the middle of a road,


Hornet...here in the states, in many areas it is illegal to be a pedestrian on a controlled highway...just as mopeds are illegal on a controlled highway...



> but i do know it's illegal to drive after dark with no lights,especially when you're coming up to a undetermined haze hanging over the road.


yet only victims have stated the car had no lights on....the police have not yet determined that is the case...

And yet you make no mention of the tractor trailer rig that also rolled through the crash scene and accoding to police..."most likey hit someone"...



> I'm still wondering,if a cop was driving the Crown Vic,


Oh yeah...lets run right into conspiracy theory....was a cop driving the tractor trailer as well?



> and was he trying to bust up the activity that was going on,that would explain the running with no lights,and was he thinking he could catch the taillights disappearing up the road,and being as how he was concentrating on catching the bad guy street racers,did he even notice the people on the road.
> Sure looks like a cop car if you ask me,un-marked white Crown Vic,they're a very common car in Police forces North America,it would also maybe explain the fact no charges have been laid against the driver of the Crown Vic.
> You guys spin it anyway you want,but i still figure the people in the middle of the road,had as much right to be there as a car running with no lights after dark.


I think you are grasping at straws....



> I still think there is a whole lot more to this story then what you're getting from the media,like maybe it was a cop driving the car,just an off the wall theory,but it'd be about the only explanation i could see for the driver getting off scot free:wave:


Oh ofcorse.....it couldnt be that the driver was within the law...and the street racers were not......nah...has to be a cop that did it...:freak:


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Crimmick i doubt we'll ever know the real story,but i bet my version won't be as far out in left field as you think
BTW:are you a cop,because i'm having a hard time swallowing the fact you think the driver was in the right,imagine if that was your son or daughter he'd run over,would you still think he was in the right
There's a bit of discrepnancy between your laws and ours then,about being on a controlled road.
Just to flip this around ,lets take the street racers outta the picture,the cops have already said they weren't involved and are not looking for them,now if this crowd of people was standing in the middle of a foggy road,trying to help somebody who had fallen down/had a stroke whatever,and was laying in the road,would it still be alright if the Crown Vic ran over the people then.
I'm done with this now,cause i'm firmly convinced there's more to this,then what's being reported,and i doubt we'll ever know the truth,i've got my theory,and you can have you'res,we'll just have to agree to disagree
Rick


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## roadrner (Jul 21, 1999)

I used to live in Indian Head about 30 years ago, and that problem existed then. Rt 210 for the most part is straight. All the way from the Beltway to the end. Back then there were fewer lights, but you had and still do, have sections that had their own races. Too many mile + stretches to run on with exits. Any Monday going back to work, you'd see the tire marks from burn outs heading up or down the highway. And we had kids killed too. Guess it was just a younger group back then doing their thing. rr


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## coach61 (Sep 6, 2004)

Funny only ones saying the car had no lights were the family who had a fatality.. the women with her kid and brother.. Now that sounds like I am gonna get me a lawyer and sue everyone cuz we were stupid to me.. read the whole artical guys.. stupid is what stupid does....


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## krazcustoms (Nov 20, 2003)

It IS against the law to stand in a roadway - it's called 'obstruction of traffic' 

Crimnick, you keep taking the words right out of my mouth. 

And if any of those people had been a relative of mine, my first thought would STILL be "what the hell were they doing standing in the road"

I just watched the video that's on the sidebar of the news article and they stated that there are NO streetlights on that stretch of road (and you can clearly see how dark it is in the video). So IF (and that's a big if) the driver of the car didn't have his lights on - I don't understand how he could have gotten down the road at all. I think they're going to determine that the car lights were on.


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## Crimnick (May 28, 2006)

Hornet said:


> Crimmick i doubt we'll ever know the real story


LMAO...I doubt you would accept the real story....you seem hell bent to dwell in coverup and conspiracy..

I'm sure well find out more as the investigation completes...the whole story...



> ,but i bet my version won't be as far out in left field as you think


Bet?...did you say Bet?

I'll take that bet....what are the stakes?



> BTW:are you a cop,


Oh yeah...sure...now I'm a cop too...



> because i'm having a hard time swallowing the fact you think the driver was in the right,


I said the driver was in lawful use of the highway.....as is born by the fact that the neither the driver of the Vic OR the driver of the truck are facing charges...



> imagine if that was your son or daughter he'd run over,would you still think he was in the right


Wow....so the law isnt the law depending on whom the victim may be?



> There's a bit of discrepnancy between your laws and ours then,about being on a controlled road.


And yet again...that has nothing to do with the law in Maryland.



> Just to flip this around ,lets take the street racers outta the picture,the cops have already said they weren't involved and are not looking for them,now if this crowd of people was standing in the middle of a foggy road,trying to help somebody who had fallen down/had a stroke whatever,and was laying in the road,would it still be alright if the Crown Vic ran over the people then.


Why do you resort to a fantasy situation when the real one clearly happened?

And why do you use terms like "alright"....when such term doesnt apply..."alright" is a matter of opinion.....The law is a matter of black and white...you are either in lawful use of the highway...or you are not..

If the Vic driver or the truck driver had broken the law..they would be charged...



> I'm done with this now,


Too bad...I was looking forward to the wager..I could use a new superstock Storm...



> cause i'm firmly convinced there's more to this,then what's being reported,and i doubt we'll ever know the truth,i've got my theory,


I have no doubt we'll all have access to the facts of the investigation.

You realise....your theory requires the driver of the tractor trailer truck to be a cop also...



> and you can have you'res,


Rest assured...I will not rest my opinion on theory or emotion...I will rest it upon facts.

If it turns out you are right...the driver was a cop....there is a cover up...the driver is charged...

Then I will freely admit that I was wrong..



> we'll just have to agree to disagree
> Rick


No thanks...I'll stick with the facts...not everything is a matter of opinion..

I'm willing to put 65 bucks on the facts as they lay now...

The driver of the vic wasnt a cop...there is no cover up...the Vic driver wont be charged as he was within lawful use of the highway....as was the truck driver who was behind him...

You game?


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## bobhch (Apr 22, 2007)

http://mefeedia.com/entry/7-killed-when-street-racer-plows-into-crowd/6695135/

The driver was not killed but, a passenger was among one of the dead. I am sure that the passengers name will be realeased and the driver will be interviewed later on probably....time may tell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOev95_Z8Yc&feature=related

Anyways.....just saying.

Bob...zilla


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Crimmick you're making me laugh,you sure seem to have a burr up where the sun don't shine don't ya lad.
I'm getting the feeling you don't much like me,cause i disagree with your ideas on street racing,lol
LOL,i don't run anything slower then a R/O,so trying to bet me a SS car ain't much of a bet now is it:thumbsup:.
Lighten up there Crimmick,you weren't involved and i wasn't involved,so lets just agree to disagree.
I work with a cop part time,i think he's in the shop tomorrow,i'll see if the Canuck cops know anything about this,doubtful,but you never know


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## Scafremon (Dec 11, 2006)

Hornet said:


> I'm getting the feeling you don't much like me,cause i disagree with your ideas on street racing


I don't get that feeling Hornet. It's just a conversation about what happened, and where responsiblities lie.

You could be correct in your theory that the C-Vic was being driven by a cop. Maybe it was being driven by a foreign dignitary, or a local politician, maybe even a presidential candidate. The cover-up going on is huge, and once all the facts come out, it is going to be a headline story across the country, with a made-for-TV movie out early 2009.

I think it is more likely that it was being driven by someone who knew about the races, and was arriving late, even though the report says that this driver was 'apparently un-connected' with the racing.

Of course, it could just have been someone driving by, wrong place at wrong time.

I find it strange that the police are not actively looking for the drivers of the illegal race. Not strange, as in some conspiracy, just strange that they aren't looking to arrest them.

The ages of the victims also surprises me. I thought illegal street racing was mostly a pre-twenties thing - the playstation crowd as mentioned previously. If the ages of those who died is representative of the approx 50 who were there watching, then I think Prince George County in Maryland has some education issues.

Or maybe it is the water.


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## Crimnick (May 28, 2006)

Hornet said:


> Crimmick you're making me laugh,


That's nice....



> you sure seem to have a burr up where the sun don't shine don't ya lad.


Why...becuase I wont subscibe to your conspiracy theories, and wont just go away?



> I'm getting the feeling you don't much like me,


Hmmm...first I'm a cop (would discount my opinion on why the driver isnt charged)...now I dont like you (discounts my opinion based on bias)...

Now really....I doint even know you....how can I really dislike you?

No Hornet...I dont dislike you...



> cause i disagree with your ideas on street racing,lol


My ideas on street racing....hmmm...that is illegal and kills people?

You think that is an opinion...as in...I like the color blue?

You arent even arguing with me....you are arguing with the law, reality, and common sence.....in that order...



> LOL,i don't run anything slower then a R/O,so trying to bet me a SS car ain't much of a bet now is it:thumbsup:.


Ok...how about an even hundred...or two...:thumbsup:



> Lighten up there Crimmick,you weren't involved and i wasn't involved,so lets just agree to disagree.


Lighten up?...what...I should just accept your coverup and conspiracy theory and shut up?

I should ignore reality, the law, and common sence....and just blow it off?

And again....how am I not being "light"?...I'm not mad..I'm not using profanity...hell...I'm not even breathing heavy...

Saying "lets agree to disagree" is like asking me to agree to disagree about gravity, the speed of sound, or the properites of an atom...

I can agree to disagree about things like politics where damn near everything is a matter of opinion...

But the law doesnt fuction on "opinion"...it functions sets of rules clearly defined that apply equally to all....or the law is unjust...

Asking if my opion would differ if my kids had been run over illustrates the weakness of your argument...as though the identity of who was hit matters more than the actions that placed them in harms way in the first place...

The law is the law...it applies to all....

The law doent use terms like "right" and "wrong"....in the eyes of the law...there is only "legal" and "illegal"..."right' and "wrong" may apply in a civil setting..but not a criminal one...





> I work with a cop part time,i think he's in the shop tomorrow,i'll see if the Canuck cops know anything about this,doubtful,but you never know


Please do so....it might enlighten you a bit...

I have nothing against you personally...I simply refuse to entertain conspiracy and cover up as a valid opinion, when the facts will clearly present themselves...

You mistake my firmness in the matter to be confontational only...when in fact...I'm only asserting the facts as they have been presented, how they fit with the law, and comon sence...

You seem to have latched on to an "non impartial" witness statement and made a whole string of assumtions based on that....such as your opinion that the driver of the Vic was a cop...

So...I'm calling you on it...That's all....

In the end..niether your opion nor mine will matter to the outcome...I'm merely attempting to explian in certain terms how the "criminal" law will not find fault in the driver of the Vic...

And that isnt to say that one or more of the rundown people might not sue the driver of the Vic in civil court...and win...

But without criminal charges...a civil case will be harder to win...but not impossible...just ask OJ simpson...

Peace....


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## Crimnick (May 28, 2006)

Scafremon said:


> I don't get that feeling Hornet. It's just a conversation about what happened, and where responsiblities lie.


Bingo..



> You could be correct in your theory that the C-Vic was being driven by a cop. Maybe it was being driven by a foreign dignitary, or a local politician, maybe even a presidential candidate. The cover-up going on is huge, and once all the facts come out, it is going to be a headline story across the country, with a made-for-TV movie out early 2009.






> I think it is more likely that it was being driven by someone who knew about the races, and was arriving late, even though the report says that this driver was 'apparently un-connected' with the racing.
> 
> Of course, it could just have been someone driving by, wrong place at wrong time.


I'm sure we will eventually find out...



> I find it strange that the police are not actively looking for the drivers of the illegal race. Not strange, as in some conspiracy, just strange that they aren't looking to arrest them.


That I also found strange...strange as in "if they werent racing..there would have been no crowd...yes they are involved"..

Not :

"Strange...maybe the racers were cops too..."



> The ages of the victims also surprises me. I thought illegal street racing was mostly a pre-twenties thing - the playstation crowd as mentioned previously. If the ages of those who died is representative of the approx 50 who were there watching, then I think Prince George County in Maryland has some education issues.
> 
> Or maybe it is the water.


Surprised me as well....until I did a little digging...then I'm like "Oh...the apple really doesnt fall far from the tree"...


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Well if nothing else your hilarious,i darn near split a gut laughing:thumbsup:.
I agree you're not upset,but have you ever seriously considered seeing a doctor about your blood pressure Crimmink,as you're on quite the tirade.There's also groups who can help you with your gambling problem too.
BTW:just to calm you down ,i'm getting a little scared you're gonna blow a gasket,i'll agree with you,then again maybe not:woohoo:


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## sethndaddy (Dec 4, 2004)

I wish there was tougher laws on street racing, I dunno, I never did it, never thought to do it. Buy a video game. And no video games don't lead to people becoming criminals.

Only on this board can anything be turned into a political like argument.

Joe asked for prayers and gets a debate, c'mon guys.


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## videojimmy (Jan 12, 2006)

I guess I'm a heartless man too... I don't feel sorry for dumb people who play wth fire and get burned. 

Stupid actions often lead to bad results and some mistakes are too big to forgive.
This tragedy was only a matter of time, anyone with a brain had to know this. 

And what kind of parent would bring little kids to celebrate an illegal event anyway?


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## Slott V (Feb 3, 2005)

Been watching this thread unfold-

Street racing has always been frowned on and has its dark reputation. I did a lot of it when I was younger and did have some bad crashes but nobody got hurt. And we didn't line up people and gather crowds beforehand- that's just stupid. It was more like Hollywood Knights or American Grafitti where you would be cruising around or parked on the main strip in town and spot a guy from out of town with something nasty. Or he would be out looking for you after hearing of your reputation. You would head to a secluded street that was away from the town and it was usually a 4 lane road with a higher speed limit. Your friends might follow in their cars but nobody got out and gathered. 3 beeps of the horn and you were off.









Today I don't even bother. Too many laws, too many gung-ho cops with guns drawn. I think movies have glorified street racing too much and encourage too many morons to go out and do this for attention. And there are a lot of guys out there with dangerous, piece-of-crap rice cars trying to prove something. They're all mostly way out of their league and drive like total a-holes in traffic. They usually know enough to leave me alone but every so often some clown needs a lesson in what REAL horsepower is...
:devil:


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## Slott V (Feb 3, 2005)

sethndaddy said:


> I wish there was tougher laws on street racing, I dunno, I never did it, never thought to do it. Buy a video game. And no video games don't lead to people becoming criminals.
> 
> Only on this board can anything be turned into a political like argument.
> 
> Joe asked for prayers and gets a debate, c'mon guys.


I agree partially. But this is a forum where anyone is entitled to their opinion. 

Video games? I'm sorry but you can't get the adrenaline rush from playing video games in your living room.

Racing vehicles is a risk, period. With all risk comes danger and excitment. It's a double edged sword. But if you want excitement and take risks, you better be on your game 100%! If you go out there with your head up your arse you're asking for big trouble. And street racing around innocent bystanders is just plain STUPID. Take it to the track or go somewhere away from crowds. :drunk:


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

I agree with Scott,the street racing that takes place these days isn't the same as when i was a kid doing it 20 yrs ago.
Like Scott says,we'd go to a lonely deserted stretch of highway,and always had spotters out on either end.
Never seen an accident or been involved in one while street racing,but we we're probably lucky.
There's still way to many places with no dragstrip access,so alot of young guys have to do their racing on the streets.
Maybe city/town councils with no access to a local track should be more open to closing down a public street so these kids have a place to race,but that just isn't happening.
No matter how illegal they try to make it,it'll still go on,it's human nature to be competitive,it's inbred into our make-up,so why city fathers can't grasp that fact is beyond me.
Sethand Daddy,you made the comment you've never done it,that one i find hard to believe,you've never impromputily stomped on the gas at an intersection with another guy beside you,that's street racing,and damn near everybody's done it at one point in time


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## [email protected] (Jan 25, 2007)

Hornet said:


> Maybe city/town councils with no access to a local track should be more open to closing down a public street so these kids have a place to race,but that just isn't happening.


Hey H, The towns can't do it even if they want to. They are legally (and morally) responsible for injury or death then. Imagine the insurance cost to cover any possible suits. Billions. I remember (back in the day)telling a friend about riding his motorcycle responsibly. I said "its easy". Then i got my 750 rice rocket and forgot all that. I'm lucky to be here still racing little cars. By the way isn't that why we're here?? mj


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## Crimnick (May 28, 2006)

sethndaddy said:


> Joe asked for prayers and gets a debate, c'mon guys.


Quite right...I come here for little cars..not idiots in big ones.


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## 70ss (Aug 22, 2005)

Crimnick said:


> Quite right...I come here for little cars..not idiots in big ones.


Your the one helping to perpetuate this. Why would you call everyone else a idiot if they have a "big one".  Matter of fact my interest in the little ones is what drove to the big one.


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## 70ss (Aug 22, 2005)

Crimnick you have some valid points but I think you have degraded yourself by resorting to name calling. jmo


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## Scafremon (Dec 11, 2006)

>>> I agree with Scott,the street racing that takes place these days isn't the same as when i was a kid doing it 20 yrs ago.

Hard to say. There may have been groups 20 years ago, taking it to the level these guys were - bringing their illegal race cars on trailers to a local store parking lot, then racing on a stretch of road nearby. 

>>> There's still way to many places with no dragstrip access,so alot of young guys have to do their racing on the streets.

Have to? Of course they do not have to. They can choose not to break the law. 

>>> Maybe city/town councils with no access to a local track should be more open to closing down a public street so these kids have a place to race,but that just isn't happening.

True, and it probably won't happen, for reasons that have been stated.

>>> No matter how illegal they try to make it,it'll still go on,it's human nature to be competitive,it's inbred into our make-up,so why city fathers can't grasp that fact is beyond me.

There are legal methods for a person to be competitive. Heck - people kill others out of competition - should the city fathers find a way to make murder more accessable to our citizens?

>>> Sethand Daddy,you made the comment you've never done it,that one i find hard to believe,you've never impromputily stomped on the gas at an intersection with another guy beside you,that's street racing,and damn near everybody's done it at one point in time.

Beating another car across an intersection is hardly what happened in Maryland, and not really what we are discussing here. I'm fairly certain you can see the difference.


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## Scafremon (Dec 11, 2006)

sethndaddy said:


> Joe asked for prayers and gets a debate, c'mon guys.


I'm sorry. I was just trying to figure out who to pray for.

Decided to pray for the passenger of the cop who was driving the Crown Vic. 

And hornet.


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## sethndaddy (Dec 4, 2004)

Hornet said:


> Sethand Daddy,you made the comment you've never done it,that one i find hard to believe,you've never impromputily stomped on the gas at an intersection with another guy beside you,that's street racing,and damn near everybody's done it at one point in time


AH, nope, never did it. I do drive over the speed limit most of the time, but if an asshole gets next to me revving his engine, by all means, I leave brainless pull out ahead and zoom off to his false win.
I am competative as ANYONE here on the boards, a car is a mechanical thing reacting to you, as opposed to say..........shooting basketball, or going deep and diving trying to catch a football, thats the competition I thrive for.

To each his own, where I'm from mommy and daddy didn't hand over a car, you worked your ass off to pay for the car, your insurance, sterio, steering wheel cover, (can go on and on) I remember sitting in my car just listening Ozzy and Judas Priest, loving my little "apartment".

Sorry to go on and on, and throw a few cuss words in, I should have expected comments to come my way, after all. there opinions, and everyones allowed to blert them out at will.


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## SplitPoster (May 16, 2006)

I_ am competative as ANYONE here on the boards, a car is a mechanical thing reacting to you, as opposed to say..........shooting basketball, or going deep and diving trying to catch a football, thats the competition I thrive for._

Scaf, you should try to run an autocross course through those little orange cones trying for faster time than the "lesser" cars, drivers and intellects you may compete against. Very competitive, more dependent on the driver's skill and control than on the car - saw a guy in a Testarossa at an event once who was among the slowest there, and HE couldn't believe it. I would wager anything and everything that you would find more skill and far more concentration is involved in driving a (legal) race car on a road course at its limits in wheel to wheel competion than shooting a basket or catching a football. All are fun, but there the similarities end. I let the idiots on the road go too, don't mind getting a hole shot away from the green light, but most people who drive very aggressively or recklessly in traffic are not to be trusted with my life, let alone their own.

The most dissappointing thing about this thread is that a few of you feel that someone who is simply not where they are supposed to be (spectating street racing) , doing nothing more offensive than a misdemeanor (standing in or next to the road), more or less got what they deserved. This attitude bodes well for those of you who might want to stealthily cruise city streets waiting for someone to step off the curb, or might look for a bicyclist or jogger flagrantly disobeying traffic law in your path. Flagrant lawbreakers all, so they should get whatever happens to them, up to and including death...? Not a stretch or a straw argument at all LMAO, a simple extension of the line of reasoning presented. Logic instead of emotional outburst, amazing concept. Try it. So if the same spectators were in the exact same spot EXCEPT they were watching a forest fire, or a comet, or a lightening storm, whatever; THEN the vitriolic reaction and discussion would be exactly the same? I think not. 

You boys have a wonderful evening :wave: I know I will.


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## Slott V (Feb 3, 2005)

What you have in this story is bad circumstances created by street racers breaking the law on a regular basis *and getting away with it*. Sounds like the town folk knew about it for a while and were pushing to get an end to it. I'm not sure why their voices went unheard, but the end came in the wrong fashion thanks to a lack of urgency by law enforcement. Seems they got their end to it. If it doesn't end, *I pray for the people in the town*. They need a new Police Chief. And Mayor. This was literally an accident waiting to happen.

Arguing about the validity of the deaths of these people is foolish. Yes that is terrible, especially in a small town. But it was an accident resulting from circumstances brought on by illegal activities that other people participated in besdies the people racing the cars. The people who were killed WERE NOT involved in the illegal street racing, but they were supporting it and were also breaking the law. The people that were not hit but were standing out there should have some responsibility in this as well.


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## Crimnick (May 28, 2006)

70ss said:


> Crimnick you have some valid points but I think you have degraded yourself by resorting to name calling. jmo


Oh jesus...who did I call a name?

Could it be I was refering to the street racers again?

Nah.....it had to be a personal attack...:freak:

Look...I come here for my hobby...talking about current events really has no place here...

I made the mistake of sharing my position...and then when when people start putting words in my text...I compounded my mistake by defending my postition with direct quotes and pesky facts....

My third mistake...I thought a dicussion on something as simple as basic traffic law was possible without devolving into a conspiracy fest, or a feather ruffling contest....

Well...three strikes....I'm out...

I stick to my guns when the facts are clear and present.....I'm not a big fan of ambiguity...I call em as I see em.....call it a charactor flaw...

You guys go right ahead with the pity party for the poor little street racers....I'm going to stick to slotcars....

:wave:


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## bumpercar88 (Feb 6, 2005)

I thought the article said that this stretch of road has been used for racing 20+ years? How do you blame the current mayor and police chief? Sounds like the road has caricteristics that attrack racers. Have there been prior fatalities? Sure most of us 50+ aged individuals will say how could they do that? But how many of us didn't race as kids? I personally ran the circuit in Asbury Park. I later became a police officer and enforced the motor vehicle laws. Am I a hypocrite? No, when I was racing on the street I didn't fully realize the consequences. (Especially civil) If this place was being used for so long the racers must have thought it was safe.
Let's face it if we didn't feel the need for speed we wouldn't be on this forum. We have channeled our need to compete and push the envelope to slot cars, however most of us have done the same in 1:1 cars. I'm not condoning recklessness however there will always be racing even if it's just from the traffic signal.
Maybe the car manufacturers selling the sports cars could address the problem. Buy our service plan and after 2 years we'll give you a pass to the nearest track? After all aren't they promoting the racing performance of the vehicles? 
Competition is only natural, Nascar was the result of bootleggers that out ran the law competing against one another. Tractor pulls? Monster trucks? last week Norm Wallace put my shopping cart in to the wall at the super market.


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## 70ss (Aug 22, 2005)

Crimnick said:


> Quite right...I come here for little cars..not idiots in big ones.


"Oh jesus...who did I call a name?" Right here "idiots in big ones"


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## Slott V (Feb 3, 2005)

*Bumpercar:*

My comment about the Police Chief and Mayor is taken out of context. Please read it again. I said if this tragic accident doesn't change/end this activity going on using the public highway, THEN they should find replacements for both. If you listen to the heart broken people in that news video, you clearly hear them saying they were trying to get someone to put an end to this for a while. Who else would they go to?


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## vaBcHRog (Feb 19, 2003)

Crimnick said:


> Oh
> 
> Look...I come here for my hobby...talking about current events really has no place here...
> 
> :wave:


Please note the Subject has OT for Off Topic 

Roger Corrie


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## bumpercar88 (Feb 6, 2005)

Slott V, point taken and I agree w/ you. You will never stop street racing and unfortunately until somebody gets hurt or killed it's usually not a priority to allocate resources. Sometimes a peaceful co-existence is the best solution. Back in the early 80s some friends from south jersey took me to Philly on a Saturday night. There was a street that fed the parking lots for stadiums, Front St? There were over 50 cars there and people would race down this otherwise vacant street (no events at the stadiums). The Philly cops came by and of course nobody raced in their presence. They would check out the cars and make sure there was no alcohol. They knew what was going to happen when they left. At two or three in the morning they would come and open a fire hydrant. That was the signal that it was time to go. I was told that the gatherings were tolerated because there were no pedestrians or vehicle traffic on these streets and it kept the racing off more congested streets. I understand that two spectators were killed or seriously hurt a few years ago and that came to an end.

I was wondering if this was a similar situation?

I can't stop @ a traffic signal in my Mustang w/o having some kid in a rice burner w/ one of those easy carry handles on the back pulling along side and reving his engine. When this happens I wait longer than usual after green to start, I don't want anybody thinking there was a race if this kid crashes, I just have too much to lose. However every once in a while there's an off or on ramp between interstates that has good visibility and no traffic!


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## Scafremon (Dec 11, 2006)

SplitPoster said:


> Scaf, you should try to run an autocross course through those little orange cones trying for faster time than the "lesser" cars, drivers and intellects you may compete against.


I have, and it was a blast!



> I would wager anything and everything that you would find more skill and far more concentration is involved in driving a (legal) race car on a road course at its limits in wheel to wheel competion than shooting a basket or catching a football.


You'd win that wager. But, I never said that shooting a basketball or catching football was equal to, or required more skill or concentration then racing. You may have misread what I stated, read something more into what I stated, or are attributing something someone else posted to me.

I'm not sure where the three activities mentioned (basketball, football, and racing) fall on the 'skill and concentration' scale, but I know that on the 'enjoyment' scale it would be subjective. 



> The most dissappointing thing about this thread is that a few of you feel that someone who is simply not where they are supposed to be (spectating street racing) , doing nothing more offensive than a misdemeanor (standing in or next to the road), more or less got what they deserved.


Woah....Time Out! Now I know that you are not referring to me, and I need to re-read this thread to find out who, other then you, has mentioned anything about people getting what they deserved.


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## bumpercar88 (Feb 6, 2005)

Autocross, man I would like to see more of those events come around. The closest I did to that was a Chevy promo event and it was a blast!

If you build it, they will come. (it'll get em off the streets)


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## Scafremon (Dec 11, 2006)

bumpercar88 said:


> You will never stop street racing and unfortunately until somebody gets hurt or killed it's usually not a priority to allocate resources.


But keep in mind, people _have _been getting hurt and killed by street racing for many years. These weren't the first. It's an illegal activity, that can result in death to innocent people. And while the police may have their resources spread thin already, if the people of a community are making the police aware of a problem, then the police need to address it - not tolerate it, waiting for someone to be killed.



> They (the Philly cops) knew what was going to happen when they left.


I understand that you are referring to something from years past, but this type of activity by police should not be acceptable. They know a crime is going to committed, and they leave to allow it to happen? If they cannot arrest the people for racing (since they haven't raced yet) then they need to create or enforce laws the prevent the people from getting together to stage an illegal race. Unlawful assembly, or ticket the cars for vehicle code infractions. 

Here in So Cal, the police impound the vehicles of the people who are being specatators of a street race. That should make someone think twice about going to watch a street race. And if no one is watching, I'm sure the motivation to race (for many racers) is lessened.


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## Scafremon (Dec 11, 2006)

bumpercar88 said:


> Autocross, man I would like to see more of those events come around. The closest I did to that was a Chevy promo event and it was a blast!


I think my experience was similar. It was a Mazda promotional event at the fairgrounds. Stood in line for over (2) hours to race a Mazda 3 around cones for less then 3 minutes. When I finished, I got back in line, and waited another 2 hours to do it again.


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## bumpercar88 (Feb 6, 2005)

Yeah that's it, however I would love to see events where we could put our own cars through similar events. 

In regards to law enforcement, not all laws are enforced equally and with the same enthusiasm. Obviously somebody speeding through a school zone poses a greater threat than somebody speeding on the Interstate @ 3 in the morning. There probably isn't a police chief in the country that wouldn't embrace additional manpower, however budgets are supported by taxes so manpower is limited. Since the situation in Philly had been going on for years w/o anybody getting hurt it probably wasn't a priority. The times indeed have changed over the past 25+ years and I don't see any agency condoning such activity in today's civil litigation environment. Eventhough the individuals were gathered for an illegal activity, you know the survivors are going to sue the government for wrongful death and that's when the facts will be learned such as how long the activity had been occuring, what knowledge the police had, and what the police did to stop it.

And it's because of litigation that we're not going to see facilities that will allow us to race our street cars w/o significant modifications.


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## Crimnick (May 28, 2006)

70ss said:


> "Oh jesus...who did I call a name?" Right here "idiots in big ones"


Well..since I have been directly addressed...I will reply:

Appearently..you self identify with the statement...I cant help that..it was clearly directed at the subject of the thread...street racers...:freak:

BTW...the driver of the Vic isnt a Cop....he's a 20 year old who was driving his brother home from band practice...

Wont be charged...

So much for conspiracies and cover-ups.

So..unless someone addresses me again....

:wave:


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## 70ss (Aug 22, 2005)

And watch and see what is going on this country. The not next to my house attitude. Some tracks are having to fight to stay open . Tracks that have been around before homes moved into the area are under attack and pressure from local municipalities. And if their not big enough to fight they are selling out to developers which is what started the problem for them in the first place. Someone decided to sell their land (who could blame them with the amount of money being thrown their way) next to the track the homes go in and the complaints go up.
I am lucky enough to have 4 tracks within a hour drive. Some people are not so lucky so they take to the street. Its only going to get worse as tracks close up under pressure. Not only from the township. But from the increasing insurance cost and regulations. People are only going to pay so much to make their pass down the track. The regulations or rules to meet requirments to make a pass down the track with a fast car gets more almost each and every year.


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## bumpercar88 (Feb 6, 2005)

Did the witness that said the car didn't have lights on see the vehicle prior to impact? It appeared that the headlights were damaged in the accident. Witness accounts often aren't reliable, vehicle examination and accident recreation using proven scientific methods will tell the tale.

Regardless of the degrees of culpability the loss of life is sad.


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## bumpercar88 (Feb 6, 2005)

True story 70ss, if your lucky enough to have a track near you, support them! I hope to visit Wall Stadium and New Egypt numerous times this summer. See you there?


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## 70ss (Aug 22, 2005)

bumpercar88 said:


> Did the witness that said the car didn't have lights on see the vehicle prior to impact? It appeared that the headlights were damaged in the accident. Witness accounts often aren't reliable, vehicle examination and accident recreation using proven scientific methods will tell the tale.


I think there is a possibility there could have been a head wind or breeze that took the smoke from the cars behind the people so oncoming traffic couldn't see them and they couldn't see oncoming traffic. Could have happened, only those involved could know for sure. And probably after impact the lights no longer were working. Just a theory on my part.


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## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)




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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

LOL,i think i know where the idiot comment was directed:woohoo:
Crimmick and Scaf,you're both assuming i didn't agree with you guys,better re-read everything i posted,cause you know where assuming leads to don't you.
I put out a theory and that was all.Crimmick not once have i said i disagreed with you,but you're a bit of a hothead,so it was kinda fun,watching you get all twisted up in knots.
Remember that assuming thing,i think ya both better put it on your plate,and study it close:woohoo:


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## 70ss (Aug 22, 2005)

Crimnick said:


> Well..since I have been directly addressed...I will reply:
> 
> Appearently..you self identify with the statement...I cant help that..it was clearly directed at the subject of the thread...street racers...:freak:
> 
> ...


Ill be your Huckelberry. You didn't state ...street racers... in your reply. You replied to a comment......... "Joe asked for prayers and gets a debate, c'mon guys." ........ This was your reply......."Quite right...I come here for little cars..not idiots in big ones." Which would include anybody with a big one. ............................... Now I know some of have a big one and others think they have a big one. But your statement still included us. By the way were did you read that the driver was coming home from band pratice? And was it in a another state seems kind of late or early to be returning from band pratice? :wave:


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Hey 'doba pass me some of that popcorn, this thread's gonna explode. 

I saw yesterday that the driver of the car was a 20 year old driving his brother (who was in the car at the time of the crash) home from band practice. The way it was worded it seemed more like "garage band" not "school band".

The driver was driving on a suspended license.

The suspension (I think it's his second one) was due to points.

The points came from, among other things ....multiple speeding tickets...I think one is reported to have been about 30 mph over the limit.

*So now we have a person who likes to go fast in spite of the law that shouldn't have been driving running into a crowd of people that shouldn't have been standing in the middle of a highway watching other people go fast in spite of the law.* 

:woohoo: :freak: :woohoo:


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## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)

SwamperGene said:


> *So now we have a person who likes to go fast in spite of the law that shouldn't have been driving running into a crowd of people that shouldn't have been standing in the middle of a highway watching other people go fast in spite of the law.*


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## Scafremon (Dec 11, 2006)

70ss said:


> I am lucky enough to have 4 tracks within a hour drive. Some people are not so lucky so they take to the street.


This may be true, but it doesn't make street racing right. And I'm not implying that this is what you are stating, I just see other ways to end that last sentence. Examples:

"Some people are not so lucky so they:

Have to drive more then 1 hour.
Have to make plans to visit a track during a vacation.
Have to find something else to do.

etc.

I'm curious as to how close an actual track is to where this accident occured. Maybe I will try and find out. But in any case, if the track was 6 hours away, or 30 minutes away, that in and of itself is not going to curb street racing. The track is probably going to have some rules, safety requirements, etc, and I have a feeling that is not going to be as attractive to some of these racers - maybe most of them. Part of their thrill is surely the law breaking aspect of it. 

If it wasn't, they would

drive more then an hour
make plans to visit a track during a vacation
find something else to do


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## Scafremon (Dec 11, 2006)

Hornet said:


> Scaf,you're ~ assuming i didn't agree with you guys...


I am?

Or are you assuming that I was assuming?


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## Scafremon (Dec 11, 2006)

SwamperGene said:


> this thread's gonna explode.


Not a chance. Even if it did get heated (which I don't think it has or will) history tells us it will be locked way in advance of that happening. Someone will hit the 'report post' button because someone else said something they disagree with. 



> So now we have a person who likes to go fast in spite of the law that shouldn't have been driving running into a crowd of people that shouldn't have been standing in the middle of a highway watching other people go fast in spite of the law.


Nicely done! I'd say that sums up some of the facts as we know them. Care to share an opinion of illegal street racing? Do you feel it is an unpreventable part of human nature? In our genes, and something we should just accept?

Heck - Is it more enjoyable then tossing a basketball through a hoop?


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## 70ss (Aug 22, 2005)

Scafremon said:


> If it wasn't, they would
> 
> drive more then an hour
> make plans to visit a track during a vacation
> find something else to do


I am not advocating that they should take it to the street, that is against the law. But for arguments sake. So if two guys want to prove who has a faster car in this case. But could have been in many other ways (which has been going on for some time Athens on foot comes to mind ) they should take a vacation together to visit a track that may or may not let them line up against each other? . Just asking

Because finding something else to do leaves allot of options legal and illegal and still wouldn't answer the question as to who is faster. Which is why they were breaking the law in first place. I am also sure that there was not a track open for them to run each other in wee hours of the morning.
Maybe we should start a movement for everyone to set up a slot track in there respected basement justfor proving who is faster(and having fun). It would be cheaper for most involved and safer for most (unless a argument  broke out).  Hows that sound?
There I tried to get this subject to pertain to slot cars. Lets se how long that lasts:wave:


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## Scafremon (Dec 11, 2006)

bumpercar88 said:


> Yeah that's it, however I would love to see events where we could put our own cars through similar events.


They have those too! Quite often, maybe monthly, here in So Cal. 

I enjoyed that the car was a Mazda loaner, even though my 350Z might have been fun to test on a course.

But, I sold the Z, and am now driving a Prius...something tells me Auto-xing a Prius, and my commute car to boot, may not be as much fun.


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## 70ss (Aug 22, 2005)

Scafremon said:


> I'm curious as to how close an actual track is to where this accident occured. Maybe I will try and find out. But in any case, if the track was 6 hours away, or 30 minutes away, that in and of itself is not going to curb street racing. The track is probably going to have some rules, safety requirements, etc, and I have a feeling that is not going to be as attractive to some of these racers - maybe most of them. Part of their thrill is surely the law breaking aspect of it.
> 
> If it wasn't, they would
> 
> ...


Your right the thrill of breaking the law allways will appeal to some. Thats why we have laws in first place. And in a street racers mind going to the track is just going to prove who has the faster ....Race Car ... not the faster Street Car. Track will be preped for traction (hopfully but not allways) sorta like magnets on our slot cars. Hey another slot car analogy.
The street is an equalizer.And to answer one of your questions ther are Three Nhra tracks in Maryland not sure about Ihra. Don't know if any are still open this time of year or opened up yet.:wave:


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Scafremon said:


> Care to share an opinion of illegal street racing?


My only opinion is that the tragedy was caused less by the racing itself and more by the type of people who seem to equate two blowhards risking their own and other motorists safety to a friggin' NHRA event. Something like this was bound to happen sooner or later...probably already has on a lesser scale. 

That said, I've worn the "blowhard" cap a few times in my life, as most of us have whether it's racing or whatever else, and in typical "can't believe I made it this far" fashion look back and feel lucky no one ever got hurt. Us humans generally feel invincible, stories like this are merely a reminder that our brain has yet to fully develop into a rational thinking machine. :freak:


Ok, I do have a second opinion. There is one charge missing that's already been admitted to. The 27 year old broad with her kid right in the mix...realistically, that kid's maybe 12 at most...now there's a crime.


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## Scafremon (Dec 11, 2006)

70ss said:


> But for arguments sake. So if two guys want to prove who has a faster car ....


Maybe the dyno could determine the faster car.

And if they did want to race each other, they may indeed have to resort to scheduling a trip to a track that allows the racers to select their opponents. Sounds like something tracks could cater to, but not sure.

Of course, they may just have to never know - and deal with disappointment. They were probably disappointed when their dads wouldn't fight each other also, to end the debate over 'my dad can beat up your dad'. 

It's not the end of the world to not know. 

And as for changing the discussion to slots...lol...c'mon: We've got a billion slot related threads here. :thumbsup:


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## 70ss (Aug 22, 2005)

Scafremon said:


> Maybe the dyno could determine the faster car.
> 
> And if they did want to race each other, they may indeed have to resort to scheduling a trip to a track that allows the racers to select their opponents. Sounds like something tracks could cater to, but not sure.
> 
> ...


Dyno would just prove who is making more horsepower. Lot of other factors come into play. Car weight,gearing, transmision,driver,traction just to name a few.


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## Scafremon (Dec 11, 2006)

SwamperGene said:


> My only opinion is that the tragedy was caused less by the racing itself and more by the type of people who seem to equate two blowhards risking their own and other motorists safety to a friggin' NHRA event. Something like this was bound to happen sooner or later...probably already has on a lesser scale.
> 
> That said, I've worn the "blowhard" cap a few times in my life, as most of us have whether it's racing or whatever else, and in typical "can't believe I made it this far" fashion look back and feel lucky no one ever got hurt. Us humans generally feel invincible, stories like this are merely a reminder that our brain has yet to fully develop into a rational thinking machine. :freak:
> 
> ...


Agreed Gene.

And I think it has already happened on a larger scale. As tragic as this event was, if the victims had not been willing participants in an illegal and dangerous activity, I would have more sympathy for them. And the gal with the kid and dad with a bum leg who died - why she would even put her child in that situation, and her comments to a reporter(?) about the event is just chilling to me.


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## Scafremon (Dec 11, 2006)

70ss said:


> Dyno would just prove who is making more horsepower. Lot of other factors come into play. Car weight,gearing, transmision,driver,traction just to name a few.


Okay, but I wasn't saying a dyno report is same as racing. I was saying make the competition _be_ the dyno report. 

If taking 10 paces, turning and shooting might prove who has the complete package (fastest draw, best aim, most matrix-like-moves), maybe the shooting range is a better, albeit disappointing, alternative?

Re-direct the competition to something legal. We shouldn't make excuses why the illegal way is only way.


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## 70ss (Aug 22, 2005)

Scafremon said:


> Okay, but I wasn't saying a dyno report is same as racing. I was saying make the competition _be_ the dyno report.
> 
> If taking 10 paces, turning and shooting might prove who has the complete package (fastest draw, best aim, most matrix-like-moves), maybe the shooting range is a better, albeit disappointing, alternative?
> 
> Re-direct the competition to something legal. We shouldn't make excuses why the illegal way is only way.


Just saying there are alot of factors as to which car would win the race. Illegal or not most people grow out of it. This group seemed to grow into it.


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## Slott V (Feb 3, 2005)

*Look at these idiots*

MAN I can't wait for summer! One of my all time favorite movies: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KifZ01yTCL0


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## 70ss (Aug 22, 2005)

*Exclusive! Did Mystery Drag Racer Flee the Scene?*

New sources have come forward who were at the illegal street race last Saturday that ended with the deaths of eight spectators.

Like all the others who were willing to talk with this reporter and not police, the latest witnesses insist their names and faces be concealed for fear of facing fines and possibly jail time for participating in the drag racing on Route 210.

The new witnesses insist that Darren Bullock isn't telling all that happened that early morning. Bullock of Waldorf was at the wheel of the white Crown Vic that mowed down the crowd that had gathered in the roadway after the two of the scheduled racing cars went by.

The latest witnesses claim Bullock had been part of the crowd that gathered in a parking lot before the first of two races took place. They say Bullock and another car, a green Crown Victoria, disappeared, only to reappear, speeding, with no lights on, at the tail end of the second scheduled race.

They claim Bullock's car was leading in an apparent impromptu race on the very same road--in the same direction as original races(which may be why some people earlier identified the second car as a police vehicle giving chase to Bullock).

His white Crown Vic plowed into the crowd with their backs turned (witnesses say they never saw him coming or headlights from the two oncoming cars). Other witnesses say if the two speeding vehicles had their lights on--they would have been spotted in the dark by the many spectators who were not in the road; but were standing atop Vans and SUV's further back and could have easily and quickly warned the others.

Bullock's Uncle, James Wade told me on camera today he stands by his nephew's account that he was not speeding, wasn't racing and did have his lights on. Police confirm Darren Bullock was driving on a suspended license;but they say they have no evidence that he was driving wrecklessly last Saturday.

The New Witnesses say the green Crown Vic stopped before it got to the crowd. The driver made a U-Turn and left the scene after Bullock's vehicle crashed into the crowd, say witnesses.

Meanwhile State's Attorney Glenn Ivey told me on Tuesday that it's too early to consider immunity for spectators who claim to have information but fear charges or fines for taking part in the illegal races. Ivey says he wants people to come forward and he's willing to talk to people anonymously.


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## 70ss (Aug 22, 2005)

Slott V said:


> MAN I can't wait for summer! One of my all time favorite movies:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KifZ01yTCL0


Not smart in town with parked cars. Anybody could step out in front. Then again this is just a movie. Notice the water in the 57's lane,would hate to be the one to hit that while racing. Also later in the movie the Cobra is racing a T-bucket and right after they pass the cameraman a car goes by just as fast as they were going. Funny movie on a low budget I guess. Hollywood Knights now has anybody seen my puffer?


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## bumpercar88 (Feb 6, 2005)

Who would want to race a Crown Vic? Way too much body roll, might as well race box trucks!

Hey wait, I only agreed to say that if my identity was kept secret!


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## Slott V (Feb 3, 2005)

*Movie trivia*



70ss said:


> Not smart in town with parked cars. Anybody could step out in front. Then again this is just a movie. Notice the water in the 57's lane,would hate to be the one to hit that while racing. Also later in the movie the Cobra is racing a T-bucket and right after they pass the cameraman a car goes by just as fast as they were going. Funny movie on a low budget I guess. Hollywood Knights now has anybody seen my puffer?


Actually that wasn't water in the '57 Chevy's lane, it was the radiator blowing while they were filming.. I have the DVD and want to play it with the Director's dialogue to see if he talks about it, but the guys in Hot Rod talked about a lot of scenes in that movie since the '57 Chevy is "Project X" from Popular Hot Rodding and has been around in publications forever.


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## 70ss (Aug 22, 2005)

*Two Men Indicted in Maryland Street Racing Deaths*

http://www.myfoxdc.com/myfox/pages/...n=4&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.1.1

Seems the driver of the crown vic was also street racing at the time he hit and killed 8 people.


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## Slott V (Feb 3, 2005)

Wow nice follow up.


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## fordcowboy (Dec 27, 1999)

we have lost kids just like this.end of story. emt & fire fight.


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