# New Dash Chassis Experiances



## Grandcheapskate

Back in Novenber I bought a large number of Dash chassis. They were back ordered and I believe I got them in January. They are using 2 lam armatures. I have looked through previous threads to read what others have had to do to get Dash chassis up and running. I don't see much other than your basic cleaning, oiling, shoe adjustments and maybe lapping of the gears. So I want to document what I am finding and ask for input on your experiances - especially if you have gotten the later 2 lam armature chassis. 

Because of all I have had going on for the past year, I have yet to use any. But this week I took them out and started to place them under Dash bodies. As delivered, I was surprised to find it is very hard, if not impossible, to
turn the rear wheels by hand. Granted I have not done anything with them, but I was surprised they are so tight. 

Looks like each one will need some significant "loosening" work if I decide to run them. There is no way I could put them on the track in this condition.

I have only disassembled two so far just to see why they are so tight. First observation is there seems to be an obstruction in one of the brush holes which prevents the brush from freely traveling up and down (and therefore
sometimes binding the armature). This I believe is probably some flashing and the brush holes will probably need to be cleaned out.

With the chassis disassembled, I tried to turn the rear wheels and discovered the crown gear teeth are hitting the chassis, so the rear axle cannot spin freely. I also notice the rear axle has no side to side play; the crown gear is a tight fit in the chassis. This could of course cause binding with the cluster gear unless they mesh perfectly (which is impossible). When I check an Aurora chassis there is the slightest side to side movement which allows the rear axle to spin freely and the crown gear to "adjust" it's position to mesh with the cluster gear. It appears either the Dash crown gear shaft is just a hair too long, or there is some excess flashing on the chassis. If it is chassis flashing (on the teeth side of the crown gear), it's in a spot I may not be able to access unless I remove the rear axle.

I am also getting some drag on the front axle. That may need to be removed and those holes cleaned up.

So I ask if anyone else has seen these issues, especially on the later chassis. Is there a known issue of excess flashing on the chassis which needs to be addressed? As I see it now, the chassis is so tight I will need to do more than cleaning and oiling to get the chassis running.

I believe I need to do the following to free up the chassis before even trying to run it:

1. Bore out the brush holes
2. Fix the crown gear issue; either shorten the crown gear shaft or file away a bit of the chassis
3. Clean the front axle holes

Thanks...Joe


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## Joe65SkylarkGS

Well Joe, I haven't tackled the latter chassis myself but the first run I didn't have any of the mentioned issues except the front axles in some were snug. 

I will check out some of the newer chassis' soon and report back.


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## Grandcheapskate

Joe65SkylarkGS said:


> Well Joe, I haven't tackled the latter chassis myself but the first run I didn't have any of the mentioned issues except the front axles in some were snug.
> 
> I will check out some of the newer chassis' soon and report back.


 I took another close look at the chassis today and there is definitely an issue with the crown gear. Because the crown gear is a snug fit in the chassis opening it cannot move side to side as I mentioned earlier. I am definitely seeing (and feeling) the teeth of the crown gear hitting the rear of the chassis. 

What's worse is since the crown gear can't move, when you put the gearplate on the chassis the pinion gear gets "pushed" to the side and I can see the cluster gear shaft is no longer straight but is on an angle - this is also seen as the top driven gear is now tilted on the gearplate. And this is where everything gets bound up to the point where I may not be able to turn the wheels by hand.

There is only one solution I can see. Remove the rear axle and crown gear, remove some material from the crown gear shaft and reassemble; all the while hoping the hubs and crown gear still hold tight . If I have to do this to 100 chassis, then...(maybe it's best left unsaid).

I can't help thinking this could be due to either the mold wearing out (whether that be the chassis and/or crown gear mold) or not being cleaned at the proper intervals. 

Joe


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## vickers83

I`ve owned 40 of the 2 lams & over 80 of the 3 lams didn`t have any problems like the ones you`re having. No binding brushes or problems with the crowns. After oiling with new thunder oil, I lapped the gears and the cars were nice & smooth, albeit some a little noisy. I think Dan said his gears have more zinc in the brass, which makes a harder gear. The only problems I had were a few loose chassis rivets. Nothing a couple of taps with the punch couldn`t cure....Gary


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## Grandcheapskate

vickers83 said:


> I`ve owned 40 of the 2 lams & over 80 of the 3 lams didn`t have any problems like the ones you`re having. No binding brushes or problems with the crowns. After oiling with new thunder oil, I lapped the gears and the cars were nice & smooth, albeit some a little noisy. I think Dan said his gears have more zinc in the brass, which makes a harder gear. The only problems I had were a few loose chassis rivets. Nothing a couple of taps with the punch couldn`t cure....Gary


Gary,
Can you turn the rear wheels by hand before you do any lapping, etc.? On many of them (so far) I can't turn the rear wheels even if I remove the brushes. On those which I can, there is definite binding.

Also, does your rear axle have any side to side play (can your crown gear move slightly) when the chassis is disassembled, or is it locked tightly in place?

Thanks...Joe


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## vickers83

Really no side play on the rear axle, but it does turn. The whole drive train is pretty stiff. But after oiling there is a big improvement. Try removing the idler gear first and see if the stiffness is in the rear axle assembly or the arm. There is no comparison to an aurora tjet, Which are normally loose. The tolerances in the Dash seem not to be as loose as an aurora. After you oil them run them @ 9-10 volts on a power supply, You should find they will loosen up. Don`t forget the dash arm & magnets are pretty stout, They`ll take the stiffness in stride...:thumbsup:


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## Grandcheapskate

vickers83 said:


> Really no side play on the rear axle, but it does turn. The whole drive train is pretty stiff. But after oiling there is a big improvement. Try removing the idler gear first and see if the stiffness is in the rear axle assembly or the arm. There is no comparison to an aurora tjet, Which are normally loose. The tolerances in the Dash seem not to be as loose as an aurora. After you oil them run them @ 9-10 volts on a power supply, You should find they will loosen up. Don`t forget the dash arm & magnets are pretty stout, They`ll take the stiffness in stride...:thumbsup:


 Removing the idler gear allows me to turn the rear wheels easily. The arm gear is hard to turn, but that could easily be either too much brush tension or strong magnets.

However, it still appears to me the crown gear shaft is a hair too long, which forces the tooth side of the crown gear into the pinion gear, pushing the pinion slightly to the side while the pinion also exerts force against the crown gear. This puts the pinion gear, cluster gear shaft and driven gear at a slight angle and no doubt affects the top plate gear smoothness.

I believe the chassis needs to permit slight movement of the crown gear to allow it to "adjust" to the correct position for the best mesh with the pinion gear without overly forcing each gear into the other.

Thanks...Joe


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## alpink

Joe, I feel for you buddy.
that is a lot of chassis to have to perform surgery on.
I consider myself to be fortunate that all the DASH-jets I have bought run fine right off the bat.
noisy, as has been said, and putting laps on them quiets them down pretty quickly.
I have one at Hank's house that he donated a trick rtuck body for and all we ever do is lightly oil it when necessary.
haven't even corrected the pickup shoes and they are toe down.
it is starting to wear those pickup shoes enought that they will have to be adjusted or replaced soon.
we encourage everyone who comes to Hank's place to take laps with that car and give their opinion.
it has well over a thousand laps on it and still runs very good.

"I" would have thought, that by now, in the course of this discussion, the person with the most interest in the success or failure of these chassis would have, at least, made some comment.

alas, that is probably expecting TOO much.

while mine all run good, I really do understand your consternation if you, indeed, purchased a large amount, made THAT kind of investment, and you are looking at "cleaning/tuning" every one.

looking forward to your progress reports and if there might be a magical solution that would prevent disassembly of all those chassis.


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## Grandcheapskate

Thanks Al...I can see you feel my pain.

It could be just excess flashing causing the tightness and rubbing (on both crown gear and chassis), and running the chassis would wear that down fairly quickly. Then the pressure of the crown gear on pinion gear would be reduced, and that looseness would transfer through the entire drive train.

However, I hesitate to run a chassis whose wheels I cannot turn by hand. I see many comments on the tightness of the Dash gears, but the gears run very smoothly when not on the chassis. This leads me to believe something is causing the tightness once the gearplate is installed, and my guess is it is the crown/pinion gear mesh and what it does to the top gear alignment.

If anyone is close to me in northern NJ and would like to take a look, drop me a PM. Maybe what I am seeing is normal.

Thanks...Joe


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## Rich Dumas

I have written an article on tuning the Dash chassis and I can send a copy of that to anyone that drops me a PM with their e-mail address. I bought ten of the original chassis and did not have any rear axle binding issues with those. Many of the cars had some flash in the bottom of the motor brush wells that needed to be removed. The gears in all of the cars need to be lapped and they do take a lot of time with an aggressive abrasive to smooth out. I have not checked the dimensions of the gears, there could be issues even if Aurora gears were substituted. I think that the gear plate spacing may actually be a tiny bit tight, so even CNC gears would not be perfect.
Looking at the Dash chassis that I have it is obvious that some filing has been done on them, I bet that at least a few of them may need a little more.
Dan is now working on the second lot of cars, I don't know if any new issues have cropped up.


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## Grandcheapskate

Rich Dumas said:


> Looking at the Dash chassis that I have it is obvious that some filing has been done on them, I bet that at least a few of them may need a little more.


Rich,
Where did you notice the filing? Was it on the chassis to give more clearance to the crown gear teeth?



> Dan is now working on the second lot of cars, I don't know if any new issues have cropped up.


I am in no way diminishing the work and commitment that went into this venture. In fact, I want it to suceed as much as anyone and the purpose of this thread was to simply point out an area of concern. I have shown my support by purchasing a large number of chassis and look forward to many more.

It always seemed to me that hand assembling between 5,000 and 10,000 chassis would be an massive undertaking. It is only human nature to be more careful with the first one than with the 5,000th. Plus we may have the issue of the mold - how good is the mold? As I pointed out above, I believe molds need to be cleaned at certain intervals and they also wear out. Are the latter parts coming out as clean as the earlier parts?

When I spin the top gears with the gearplate out of the chassis, everything is very smooth. When I install the gearplate without the idler gear, the rear spins somewhat freely (with a hint of roughness); although I can see the pinion gear being "pushed" to the side and the crown gear is being pushed the other way; this is probably enough to allow the teeth of the crown gear to clear the chassis. So the binding is coming from somewhere else. My guess - the "tilting" of the cluster gear shaft causes the driven gear to tilt and tightens the drive train.

The crown/pinion gear mesh needs fairly tight tolerances. Any flashing on either the crown gear teeth, crown gear shaft or chassis could cause binding. And this is where excess flashing may be the culprit. If the crown gear cannot "float" to allow a stress-free mesh with the pinion gear, the additional stress gets passed all the way down the line and it manifests itself in what appears to be a tight geartrain.

My thinking is the crown gear is the only issue. Fix that and the whole drive train loosens up.

Joe


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## alpink

I strongly suggest pulling that rear axle out of the tightest chassis and checking the "window" in the chassis where the crown gear resides for flash and such. carefully examine the crown. try an original NOS Aurora crown gear in it's place.
with the chassis completely disassembled (yes the pickup shoes and springs and the front axle), carefully inspect all surfaces and holes in the chassis.
also, try an original Aurora gear plate to check for similarities and differences and if the fit feels good how does it interact with the chassis as you are reassmbling it?
not having experienced the problems you are relating, it is hard to make long distance corrections and only these suggestions can be had.
feel free to send me as many chassis as your would like me to examine! 

LOL

.


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## lenny

Grandcheapskate said:


> Because of all I have had going on for the past year, I have yet to use any. But this week I took them out and started to place them under Dash bodies. As delivered, I was surprised to find it is very hard, if not impossible, to
> turn the rear wheels by hand. Granted I have not done anything with them, but I was surprised they are so tight.
> 
> Thanks...Joe


That is next to impossible. I run every single one before it leaves my house. I had NEVER had any where the back tires would not turn and have rarely if ever had any crown teeth hitting the chassis.


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## lenny

Rich Dumas said:


> Looking at the Dash chassis that I have it is obvious that some filing has been done on them,


Due to a molding issue, the front part directly under the front axle needed to be relieved a bit since it was interfering with the axle.

That was the extent of any filing that was done to these chassis.


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## lenny

alpink said:


> Joe, I feel for you buddy.
> that is a lot of chassis to have to perform surgery on.
> I consider myself to be fortunate that all the DASH-jets I have bought run fine right off the bat.


No Al, you were not 'fortunate'. that is how ALL the chassis shoul be and again, they are ALL bench tested personally by me before they get shipped out


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## lenny

Grandcheapskate said:


> It always seemed to me that hand assembling between 5,000 and 10,000 chassis would be an massive undertaking. It is only human nature to be more careful with the first one than with the 5,000th.


No Joe, i was as careful with #1 as I am with the ones leaving my house this month. 




Grandcheapskate said:


> Plus we may have the issue of the mold - how good is the mold? As I pointed out above, I believe molds need to be cleaned at certain intervals and they also wear out. Are the latter parts coming out as clean as the earlier parts?


Now you're interjecting your own editorial here with no basis in fact. The mold was cycled less than 15,000. Hardly enough wear to warrant that there are any wear or dirt issues. seriously????





Grandcheapskate said:


> When I spin the top gears with the gearplate out of the chassis, everything is very smooth. When I install the gearplate without the idler gear, the rear spins somewhat freely (with a hint of roughness); although I can see the pinion gear being "pushed" to the side and the crown gear is being pushed the other way; this is probably enough to allow the teeth of the crown gear to clear the chassis. So the binding is coming from somewhere else. My guess - the "tilting" of the cluster gear shaft causes the driven gear to tilt and tightens the drive train.
> 
> Joe


the problems you are experiencing are completely in a rare minority. I would be happy to buy them back or exchange them for you. Almost to a man, everyone who has bought one (or more) of my chassis has had none of the performance issues you are enumerating.


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## lenny

Grandcheapskate said:


> I can't help thinking this could be due to either the mold wearing out (whether that be the chassis and/or crown gear mold) or not being cleaned at the proper intervals.
> 
> Joe


Dude, 15,000 cycles does not wear out a steel mold. Seriously, it's comments like this that really have no place here. It's speculation on your part and invalid speculation.


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## lenny

vickers83 said:


> I`ve owned 40 of the 2 lams & over 80 of the 3 lams didn`t have any problems like the ones you`re having. No binding brushes or problems with the crowns. After oiling with new thunder oil, I lapped the gears and the cars were nice & smooth, albeit some a little noisy. I think Dan said his gears have more zinc in the brass, which makes a harder gear. The only problems I had were a few loose chassis rivets. Nothing a couple of taps with the punch couldn`t cure....Gary


We switched about 2500 cars ago to a brass with more tin, which resulted in slightly quieter gears but at a cost that was 50% higher. 

120 chassis later, Gary, and not a single issue like Joe is reporting.

I find that odd...


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## lenny

Grandcheapskate said:


> Back in Novenber I bought a large number of Dash chassis.
> 
> Thanks...Joe


A. how many is a large number?
B. and you have issues with every single one??

Please, I will buy them back from you first of all so I can do my own proper 'autopsy' on them, secondly because you are in the vast minority and I really am skeptical of all of them being unrunable.


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## lenny

Rich Dumas said:


> I have written an article on tuning the Dash chassis and I can send a copy of that to anyone that drops me a PM with their e-mail address. I bought ten of the original chassis and did not have any rear axle binding issues with those. Many of the cars had some flash in the bottom of the motor brush wells that needed to be removed. The gears in all of the cars need to be lapped and they do take a lot of time with an aggressive abrasive to smooth out. I have not checked the dimensions of the gears, there could be issues even if Aurora gears were substituted. I think that the gear plate spacing may actually be a tiny bit tight, so even CNC gears would not be perfect.
> Looking at the Dash chassis that I have it is obvious that some filing has been done on them, I bet that at least a few of them may need a little more.
> Dan is now working on the second lot of cars, I don't know if any new issues have cropped up.


Your experiences mirror what nearly everyine else has said about the chassis. Bob Marketos and Rick Phyllis (sp?) cant say enough great things about it. Neither would hesitate to tell me if they had any major issues, or even minor ones.


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## lenny

Grandcheapskate said:


> Back in Novenber I bought a large number of Dash chassis. They were back ordered and I believe I got them in January. They are using 2 lam armatures. I have looked through previous threads to read what others have had to do to get Dash chassis up and running. I don't see much other than your basic cleaning, oiling, shoe adjustments and maybe lapping of the gears. So I want to document what I am finding and ask for input on your experiances - especially if you have gotten the later 2 lam armature chassis.
> 
> Because of all I have had going on for the past year, I have yet to use any. But this week I took them out and started to place them under Dash bodies. As delivered, I was surprised to find it is very hard, if not impossible, to
> turn the rear wheels by hand. Granted I have not done anything with them, but I was surprised they are so tight.
> 
> Looks like each one will need some significant "loosening" work if I decide to run them. There is no way I could put them on the track in this condition.
> 
> I have only disassembled two so far just to see why they are so tight. First observation is there seems to be an obstruction in one of the brush holes which prevents the brush from freely traveling up and down (and therefore
> sometimes binding the armature). This I believe is probably some flashing and the brush holes will probably need to be cleaned out.
> 
> With the chassis disassembled, I tried to turn the rear wheels and discovered the crown gear teeth are hitting the chassis, so the rear axle cannot spin freely. I also notice the rear axle has no side to side play; the crown gear is a tight fit in the chassis. This could of course cause binding with the cluster gear unless they mesh perfectly (which is impossible). When I check an Aurora chassis there is the slightest side to side movement which allows the rear axle to spin freely and the crown gear to "adjust" it's position to mesh with the cluster gear. It appears either the Dash crown gear shaft is just a hair too long, or there is some excess flashing on the chassis. If it is chassis flashing (on the teeth side of the crown gear), it's in a spot I may not be able to access unless I remove the rear axle.
> 
> I am also getting some drag on the front axle. That may need to be removed and those holes cleaned up.
> 
> So I ask if anyone else has seen these issues, especially on the later chassis. Is there a known issue of excess flashing on the chassis which needs to be addressed? As I see it now, the chassis is so tight I will need to do more than cleaning and oiling to get the chassis running.
> 
> I believe I need to do the following to free up the chassis before even trying to run it:
> 
> 1. Bore out the brush holes
> 2. Fix the crown gear issue; either shorten the crown gear shaft or file away a bit of the chassis
> 3. Clean the front axle holes
> 
> Thanks...Joe


one more thing Joe... Why is it that this information gets posted online before you made any effort to contact me?


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## brownie374

I knew it was just a matter of time.LOL:wave:


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## lenny

brownie374 said:


> I knew it was just a matter of time.LOL:wave:


What do you expect? I DO support my product... :wave::wave::wave::wave::wave:


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## Grandcheapskate

lenny said:


> one more thing Joe... Why is it that this information gets posted online before you made any effort to contact me?


Dan,
You are taking this way too personally. In no way am I ripping into the product. No where did I say the chassis is no good - in fact, I even pointed out the smoothness of the gear train when standing alone. Which makes me 
wonder which component is causing the tightness.

You ask why I did not write you first? I could have, but what if you told me no one else has reported possible crown gear issues (which seems to be the case)? Should I then never check with anyone else? I believe I did this in a way which does not reflect badly on your product, but points out a possible issue and asks for input. Coming at me in multiple posts as if I was personally attacking you or your product is not the way to treat customers - past, present or future.

When I made comments about the molds, it was in the form of a question, not a point of fact or accusation.

On the chassis, I was simply asking if anyone is experiancing what I am experiancing. I have communicated with you in the past and you know I am a supporter (and appreciative) of all you are doing. The only issue I am pointing out is a possible fit issue with the crown gear. If I do not ask for other opinions, how am I to know? Many guys have bought these and tuned them up - am I not to ask for their input? If I am the only one pointing out an issue, then 
others will chime in and their comments will point out where I am wrong.

I have yet to run the chassis, I am just in the process of mounting them to bodies (your bodies by the way). However, when I could not easily "finger roll" the rear wheels I was trying to determine why the drive train is so tight. In doing more of the chassis today (I am up to about 30), I can in fact turn all the rear wheels (except for one) - some more freely than others which is to be expected. And if you carefully read what I wrote in one of the posts, 
I point out it the "issue" could simply be some flashing which gets cleared out once the chassis is running for a while (or in the case of brush holes, with a little touch-up). 

I have not disassembled every one of the 100 chassis so I cannot say every one of them will have the crown gear teeth hitting the chassis. And I am not talking about the crown gear not turning, it is just making slight contact with the chassis - enough so you can feel it. Any bit of flashing in that area can cause grief. And we are talking plastic toy parts here, not NASA level tolerances. So I expect some bumps along the way. 

You put a lot of time and money into this project and I wish you all the success possible. But there will be little issues which come up from time to time and you've got to learn to take comments in stride as long as they are not malicious. Not everything is going to be perfect, especially when dealing with the tight tolerances of HO cars.

Our interaction (all of us) on this and other boards is the only impression most of us will get of each other. We should all choose our words carefully and only post when we have a clear, cool head.

Joe


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## Bill Hall

After a careful reading, I'll lay a fin down on a longshot; that the whole dealio has something to do with the expansion/contraction of the chosen materials as they relate to environment/storage. Translation: I'm thinking both Dan and Joe are right. There's no way two guys with that much combined slotcar experience could both be out to lunch. It's gotta be something oddball.


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## wheelz63

Grandcheapskate said:


> Dan,
> You are taking this way too personally. In no way am I ripping into the product. No where did I say the chassis is no good - in fact, I even pointed out the smoothness of the gear train when standing alone. Which makes me
> wonder which component is causing the tightness.
> 
> You ask why I did not write you first? I could have, but what if you told me no one else has reported possible crown gear issues (which seems to be the case)? Should I then never check with anyone else? I believe I did this in a way which does not reflect badly on your product, but points out a possible issue and asks for input. Coming at me in multiple posts as if I was personally attacking you or your product is not the way to treat customers - past, present or future.
> 
> When I made comments about the molds, it was in the form of a question, not a point of fact or accusation.
> 
> On the chassis, I was simply asking if anyone is experiancing what I am experiancing. I have communicated with you in the past and you know I am a supporter (and appreciative) of all you are doing. The only issue I am pointing out is a possible fit issue with the crown gear. If I do not ask for other opinions, how am I to know? Many guys have bought these and tuned them up - am I not to ask for their input? If I am the only one pointing out an issue, then
> others will chime in and their comments will point out where I am wrong.
> 
> I have yet to run the chassis, I am just in the process of mounting them to bodies (your bodies by the way). However, when I could not easily "finger roll" the rear wheels I was trying to determine why the drive train is so tight. In doing more of the chassis today (I am up to about 30), I can in fact turn all the rear wheels (except for one) - some more freely than others which is to be expected. And if you carefully read what I wrote in one of the posts,
> I point out it the "issue" could simply be some flashing which gets cleared out once the chassis is running for a while (or in the case of brush holes, with a little touch-up).
> 
> I have not disassembled every one of the 100 chassis so I cannot say every one of them will have the crown gear teeth hitting the chassis. And I am not talking about the crown gear not turning, it is just making slight contact with the chassis - enough so you can feel it. Any bit of flashing in that area can cause grief. And we are talking plastic toy parts here, not NASA level tolerances. So I expect some bumps along the way.
> 
> You put a lot of time and money into this project and I wish you all the success possible. But there will be little issues which come up from time to time and you've got to learn to take comments in stride as long as they are not malicious. Not everything is going to be perfect, especially when dealing with the tight tolerances of HO cars.
> 
> Our interaction (all of us) on this and other boards is the only impression most of us will get of each other. We should all choose our words carefully and only post when we have a clear, cool head.
> 
> Joe


very well put there joe,


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## Grandcheapskate

Dan, I sent you a PM the other day...please get back to me. I have tested one of the tightest chassis and want to discuss it with you before posting the results here.

Thanks...Joe


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## Grandcheapskate

While I wait for Dan's reply, I just wanted to make a couple quick statements and set the record straight.

First off, nearly all the Dash chassis will allow me to "finger roll" the rear wheels. Only 2 so far are locked really tight - problem is, those were 2 of the first 10 I tried and I was worried it would become a trend. There's still about 60 chassis I have not yet touched, but almost all of the first 40 or so allow an acceptable level of "finger roll".

Secondly, I still believe there is some flashing in the crown gear area of some chassis, but I'm sure that would wear down very quickly and not be a long term issue. 

Thirdly, in looking at one of the "locked" chassis, I discovered I cannot roll the rear wheels when I install the gearplate clamp. With the magnets and brushes removed (or installed) I can "finger roll" the rear with no clamp installed. Once I install the clamp (or even hold down the gearplate) everything locks down even with no magnets or brushes. I don't see the problem yet (the clamp is not touching the idler gear from what I can see) but there are things I will check out.

Update: I unlocked the chassis (somewhat). I discovered the "lockdown" which occurs when the clamp is installed was because of the armature. With the clamp installed, it was really hard to turn the armature. Since I do not have a gear puller, I used a screwdriver to slightly pry up the armature pinion gear. This had the effect (although I don't know why) of loosening the armature to the point it would run - it runs hot right now as it still isn't fully "free", but it does run. Now at least I can try all the common pancake tricks.

Joe


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## 60chevyjim

Ralph your back I was wondering about you the other day . I liked looking at the car pix you post ..


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## Ralphthe3rd

Yes Jim, I'm on parole too  And thank you for fondly remembering me and my car pix....

















Sorry, these aren't slot cars, just 1/64 diecast, but I was showing off my Texaco station in a quickie diorama on another forum.


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## Boosted-Z71

I bought 20 of the chassis when they were first offered, later I bought another 20, then another group & I just bought 10 with the new 2 lam arms, so I have 80+ and all have been great, very minor issues, like one of the original group had some flash on the front axle hole that the splines on the axle would bind up a little bit, a super easy fix. 

I always take mine apart and blueprint them from front to back anyway, I lap gears, set all the free play on gears/shafts along with several other tweaks. 
When I get done they roll like hot wheels.

My experience has been that the "quality" of the Dash has only improved over time, and I thought it was damn near perfect to start with. I say this as Dan's chassis work in so much easier than a original T-jet, and I dont have to search for parts that play well together. On the Dash stuff I can swap an armature plate from one chassis to another with very little tweaking, and it runs like I want. 

Boosted


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## 60chevyjim

Joe 
I bought about 20 of the first kind of the dash chassis and haven't had any problems with mine. I just oil them and go , some I put custom wheels and tires on .

Ralph I like your gas station and the 56 chevy nomad . I have a real 56 belair HT.


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## Grandcheapskate

Well, I don't get it. I took mine over to someone's house today to get a second opinion. I took out one of the chassis that is locked tight and he confirmed it - the rear wheels would not turn. Granted I only found two like this so far, but some others are pretty tight too.

On the one I "unfroze" and got running, it gets hot really quickly. It still has resistance somewhere. Out of the box, they are no where near as loose as other pancake chassis and maybe that is by design; I just don't see how these could be "oil and go".

While the component parts are obviously good quality, somehow when they all come together (at least on some of mine) there is a lot of resistance. Now if the procedure requires the gears to be lapped before they run well, then that's fine. I wasn't expecting that to be the case, but if that is what needs to be done I would have expected everyone to make that comment.

I'm not knocking the product. I just don't understand how my experiance can be so unique.

Thanks...Joe


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## alpink

Joe, ....
and I think that is what is confusing most of us here too.
that, apparently, your experience is so different from everyone else.
I would have thought that by now, at least one other person could relate similar findings.
perhaps the rest of us have just been fortunate and you got many lemons?
or maybe others that have gotten "tight" chassis aren't members here so cannot relate their experiences?
possibly even, those here who have similar chassis just aren't vocal about it?
whatever .... I hope a conclusion can be reached and a solution to make your chassis run as good as mine found.

I still leave open my offer of sending me one of the problematic chassis to examine, which you will, of course, get back.


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## Grandcheapskate

Let me just say this...I am now getting private messages from guys about similar (and other) issues with the chassis (usually the later batches). They are either not members here or are unwilling to subject themselves to flaming.

I am not alone.

I could say more, but it is not my intention to sabatoge the chassis - I'm just trying to address the issues I have found in a constructive manner.

Joe


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## lenny

The plot thickens.... Joe, I would be more than Happy to buy your chassis back or exchange. Email me at [email protected], dont PM me.


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## tjd241

lenny said:


> one more thing Joe... Why is it that this information gets posted online before you made any effort to contact me?


I think the right question is why aren't *you* reaching out to *Joe* (the customer) and/or posting ... _*"Hey Joe thanks and sorry you got a couple bummers. Go thru what you have, send back what doesn't run and I'll swap them out no questions asked. I stand behind my product."*_ Period... DONE ! 

Multiple posts for nothing. Arguing for argument's sake and trying to prove it's everybody else. Everybody gets the whole pride in your work thing... do you? .... It doesn't have to go this far!!! Did you even notice in the course of this thread you didn't even thank anyone for buying dozens... no HUNDREDS of your chassis? ... unreal.


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## lenny

tjd241 said:


> I think the right question is why aren't *you* reaching out to *Joe* (the customer) and/or posting ... _*"Hey Joe thanks and sorry you got a couple bummers. Go thru what you have, send back what doesn't run and I'll swap them out no questions asked. I stand behind my product."*_ Period... DONE !
> 
> Multiple posts for nothing. Arguing for argument's sake and trying to prove it's everybody else. Everybody gets the whole pride in your work thing... do you? .... It doesn't have to go this far!!! Did you even notice in the course of this thread you didn't even thank anyone for buying dozens... no HUNDREDS of your chassis? ... unreal.


seriously? Wow. There's a reason I don't come to this board more than a couple times a week. I have email addresses that can be used by customers to address problems with me. Use them. I hate when I have to discover problems posted on bb's and then have to take shots from people who consider it a mortal sin that I haven't responded to a complaint within 20 minutes. Again, hobbytalk and other boards ARE NOT my customer service vehicles. Ok? Joe please email me. Thank you.


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## lenny

as of this moment, I will no longer address any comments or complaints about Dash that are posted here or other boards. This is an absurd way to handle customer issues. The fastest and best way to contact me is my personal email [email protected]. There are ways to contact me through my website and facebook page.
if you have any issues with any Dash products, contact me directly and I will bend over backwards to address and fix the issues.
Thank you.


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## alpink

I want to state here and now, that the only reason I originally came to this board is because a very good friend and expert custom armature winder told me that Dan/DASH was considering stopping making bodies because he was being criticized on BB boards.
I wanted to learn what the problem was and see if I could encourage Dan to keep making his superb bodies.
I learned that the actual bow out was another BB and had to search it out.
I am not sorry that I came to this fine BB/chat. I have learned a lot and met some very nice people.


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## lenny

alpink said:


> NOT OK!
> you advertise on BB boards and try to convince people to buy your goods on BB boards.
> you cannot have your cake and eat it too.
> provide customer service on all the same venues that you advertise on.
> period


I sell from my website and facebook. I don't sell, persuade, induce, convince,coerce, blackmail or even suggest to buy my products anywhere else. Show me where I have.


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## Grandcheapskate

lenny said:


> The plot thickens.... Joe, I would be more than Happy to buy your chassis back or exchange. Email me at [email protected], dont PM me.


Dan,
I will e-mail you in the next day or two and we'll see what can be done.

Guys,
I would like to clear something up for everyone as threads like this tend to wander wildly.

I did not start this thread as a "Bash the Dash" thread, nor was it started as a substitute for acquiring support from the manufacturer. I do not expect any manfacturer to provide support via a hobby forum. This thread was started to lay out my observations and ask about the observations of others who are running these chassis.

Only once I determined there *WAS* a problem would I need to contact the manufacturer directly. But I do not know if there is a problem until I gather information. And yes, there will be both valid and invalid information posted and it needs to be culled to pull out only what is valid.

Now Dan, if you wish to monitor these discussions and correct any wrong information, that is your right and possibly even your obligation to yourself and your product. However, there are ways to do this without coming across as a bully and degrading the opinion of others. You have every right to protect your investment and even call to task those who would maliciously try to harm your product and/or reputation. From my reading of my posts, I did neither. However, your replies seemed to indicate that there was *NO WAY* I could be experiancing these issues.

Getting back to using the forums for support, I would venture to say very few people report their experiances back to the manufacturer - good or bad. Those with good experiances simply accept the fact the product works as expected. Those with bad experiances may just toss the chassis into the parts bin and move on.

There are cheerleaders and bashers; all postings need to be read with a good dose of skepticism. There are those who believe Auto World can do nothing wrong...and those who believe they can do nothing right. It is the balanced review which give you the best chance of getting valid information. The manufacturer may well get their best feedback from user forums (as long as they can cut through the BS) rather than through direct communication. 

No product, I repeat *NO PRODUCT*, is all good or all bad. So if you think your are going to make a product and then get a parade down the Canyon of Heroes, I'm afraid you'll be disappointed.

And this is why we have forums. To ask questions and get answers from others who love this hobby. Those who have the experiance we are seeking.

In reading back through my posts on this thread, I clearly pointed out areas of concern - that's why I started the thread. But I also pointed out the good things I see such as the smooth grear train and apparent quality of the parts and never, I repeat NEVER, bashed the product.

Using this thread as an example, those posting their experiances have all been positive which makes my experiance seem unique. However as I said previously, I have recieved personal messages which confirm the types of issues I have seen. In some cases they are board members but do not want to post negative comments. All have either tossed the chassis into the parts bin, traded them for something else or sold them. None of them contacted the manufacturer or posted comments online.

And after reading through this thread, why would they put themselves through this?

So where does this leave the manufacturer? Usually no news is good news. But it can be very misleading. Just because you don't hear of issues doesn't mean there aren't issues guys are fixing on their own. If I had bought only one Dash chassis and found these issues, I may very well have simply tossed it aside and never bought another; or put in the time to correct them since I only had to do it once. But looking at having to possibly lap the gears on 100 chassis to free them up and maybe reset some gears is a very daunting task. It's very possible that doing those things makes the chassis better than the original, but it is more work than I was expecting (or want).

So bottom line. The manufacturer should not be expected to provide support via forums. If a customer determines there is a problem, it is the customer's responsibility to contact the manufacturer. On the other hand, the manufacturer must allow the unencumbered free flow of information amongst customers to determine if there is a problem. Protect yourself and your product? Yes. But do not shoot the messanger if you don't like the message.

Joe


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## Bill Hall

Joe, how about a round of independent testing for any units you deem questionable?


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## Jisp

Joe, hi mate. You have (possibly unnecessarily) explained yourself and re-explained a few times now. You have been polite & patient beyond measure and your integrity is firmly in tact. It’s an excellent measure of the kind of man you are.

I said unnecessarily earlier because, well, it was unnecessary. Wow, how’s that for a revelation! LOL. Joe, you did nothing wrong or incorrectly. You started a thread to discuss hic-ups with some chassis you had. It’s a very “slot” thing to do and I wouldn’t even like to try and guess how many threads like it exist here for every chassis type imaginable. There is one difference..... I don’t ever recall seeing the starter of such a thread treated in such an alarmingly disrespectful way by the manufacturer.

It’s not uncommon for manufacturers to have contact with their customers at a forum level and most of us would have seen it across all scales on multiple boards. The parallels are that those manufacturers also stand by & are proud of their products but I’ve always seen them treat their customers with due respect. Why? I think I perhaps know and it’s pretty simple. What’s a customer? A customer is a person who buys a product from you. Forget the buys bit and the product part because a manufacturer already understand all that. The key word is person. Who on Earth treats another person like this? It’s obscene.

Michael.


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## Grandcheapskate

Michael, again I thank you for your kind words.



Bill Hall said:


> Joe, how about a round of independent testing for any units you deem questionable?


Hi Bill,
While the suggestion is a good one, the implementation could be a real nightmare.

Who would do the testing? It may be very hard to find anyone without a prior prejudice - one way or the other. Or to find someone respected enough to satisfy everyone. And as a follow-up, who would put themselves in the position of being the tester, knowing the type of feedback and harassment their "findings" may provoke?

Think about this. Imagine giving one AW chassis to a pro-AW guy and another to an anti-AW guy. Do you think the reviews would look anything alike?

How many chassis would be involved in the testing? What benchmark is used as the "standard"? One man's opinion of (for example) a smooth gear train may not be another man's opinion. Hard core racers will look for one set of criteria while basement runners look for another.

The other factor when dealing with the Dash chassis is they are all hand assembled, which means each chassis is even more unique than had they been machine assembled. While the goal was to assemble each chassis identical to the next, we know that is impossible. Picking the most troublesome chassis to be tested isn't fair, nor is it fair to pick out the best. And if you get a mixture, then the testing doesn't mean much - it would come down to the luck of the draw and we'd be right back at the start.

Joe


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## Grandcheapskate

Had a little time today to work on the Dash chassis. And you are going to be very surprised to read this, but I had it running as well as any new, out of the box, pancake chassis. If it ran this well constantly and stayed cool, it would get two thumbs up from me if it didn't require a lot of work to get there. But...there are still problems.

It looks like I have loosened the drivetrain up fairly well. I don't think it's perfect, but it is a huge improvement from how it started because now with the magnets and brushes removed, the drivetrain spins completely free. The big question is how did I loosen the drivetrain? All I did was try to pry up the armature gear and I really don't know if I even moved it. So, one problem gone but the solution eludes me.

There is a lot of noise from the gears as others have mentioned. If this is just the nature of the material used it is only a minor footnote, has no effect on chassis performance and can probably be reduced or eliminated by lapping the gears. If the noise is due to friction points (thereby generating heat as I explain later) then those friction points need to be identified and corrected.

So, where is the real problem? While it's true I can get the chassis running well, it gets hot real fast. And as the armature starts getting hot, the car slows down to a crawl (about 5-10 laps). I tested the armature when it is cool and my meter read all three armature poles at around 17.3 ohms. Be aware my meter is showing about a 1 ohm reading when I touched the leads together so I may be off by about 1 ohm. Once the armature gets hot and the car slows, my meter is reading all three poles at around 22-23 ohms until it cools down. So something is definitely wrong.

I tried using flat brushes and old Aurora magnets (which should be weaker). The results were the same.

Now here's a weird scenerio. The last time I ran the car it didn't slow down even after about 20-30 laps although when I took it off the track, it was hot. I then decided to switch lanes, but first I had to run a magnet car around to get the other lanes cleaned, so the car sat around for about 3-4 minutes. When I put it on the track, it ran slow. Thinking it might be the lane, I put it back on the original lane and it did the same thing. I'll bet when it completely cools, it will run fine again until it heats up.

So, what is generating the heat thereby causing the ohm reading to elevate and the car to slow? What are the possible reasons? Obviously friction comes to mind. Could it be a bad match between armature and magnet strength?

If this scenerio was happening to one of your Aurora cars, what would you suspect?

Thanks...Joe


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## kriket

sounds like you burnt your armature. over heating the armature too much will short it out. Look for black burn marks on the windings. i had a armature burn out on me and when i checked the ohms it ohmed out good but still ran slow and stopped running after about 5 feet on my track.


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## Grandcheapskate

I just ran the car again and I think it ran close to as fast as before, although it did slow down the longer I ran it. The armature gets very very hot...so hot you can feel it right through the body. Can't be good for the arm or the magnets.

Another thought came to me on a friction point. Could the heat be getting generated at one or both of the armature shaft holes? Since these chassis are made from different material than original Aurora, could the material be abrasive on the shaft of the armature?

Thanks...Joe


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## rholmesr

What if the shaft diameter and the hole diameter are exactly the same. Then as the arm warms up the shaft expands and the hole heats as well and contracts a bit. The increase in friction would obviously cause things to heat up exponentially. You could maybe try changing top plate/arm with a different one and see if it still does this? Or ream out the hole a little bit. Good luck.


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## LDThomas

What a bunch of worthless, wasted bandwidth. If you have a problem with ANYTHING, you contact the manufacturer. End of story.


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## 60chevyjim

ldthomas said:


> what a bunch of worthless, wasted bandwidth. If you have a problem with anything, you contact the manufacturer. End of story.


 very well put !!!!


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## rodstrguy

Thank You all for entertaining me... 1% failure rate if it is a failure at all... You say you bought a 100 chassis and ONE will not spin by hand and one is tough to spin? Then you stop right there and are not curious at all about the rest??? You won't touch them to a 9volt battery or try them on the track. What, they have to spin easy like a 50 year old T-JET? I bought brand new T-JETs when I a kid... many of them didn't run right out of the package. It was usually a brush popped out from rough handling from shipping or stocking, it was just a challenge to get it to run then.
Thank god there was no Boards like this back then because no one would have kept buying them because you may have had to adjust them.
Amazingly there are people that won't comment for fear of flamings but will openly write what will be anonymous e-mails. They probably deserve to be flamed...

If had a problem with something I bought, I would go to where I bought said Item or the manufacturer, not here. But to stop after the first one or two and then give up... NOT BUYING IT!


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## Grandcheapskate

You know, it just isn't worth trying to be respectful on this board.

I'm done.


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## Bill Hall

*Consumer Reports meets Old Faithful*

So Joe supports a manufacturer by buying in bulk. Then he requests feedback from other buyers in a reasonably posted question. Rather than defusing the situation, the manufacturer swoops in and does little or nuthen besides polarizing the issue in his typically adversarial manner. 

Joe reached out to others, as is his right. Then he gets blasted with unsolicited, bellicose, if not outright belligerent customer service; that he never asked for. If you can call THAT customer service ... gulp. Then Joe was summarily jackbooted for his trouble. Wow! Shame on y'all! 

Anyone with a fair grasp of Dans permanent record of decorum, or the ability to use the archives; KNOWs that anything besides a corsage, a full bouqutte and a box of candy will frequently end in a gnarly, flame out. Ive actually lost count over the years, but it should suffice to say that if I gave a darn, I'd have to remove my shoes and yours to get a accurate count of his customer service atrocities. Naturally the grey backs are hysterically peeing themselves in laughter yet again. Dinner and a show. The only thing really missing is Doba posting the popcorn munching icon. He should be along directly. 

Here's a few examples of known trigger phrases to avoid being Dashed ... 

What color will the chassis be?

Will the axles be knurled?

What about wheel inserts?

Is the sky blue?

What the heck is wrong with you?

Oh dear me, once again Prima Danny wigged out, and flounced off yet another B-board like Shirly Temple in a hoop skirt. Over a simple question, or customer service/ QC issue? That makes HO-Whirled, SCI, and Hobby Talk in a three year period. Whatever shall we do?

Traditionally though everyone will forget and cuddle back up at the next Dash release and the cycle of customer abuse will continue without skipping a beat.

Joe's simple curative screwdriver jab under the arm pinion appears to have solved this particular issue. Bottom line is looking like the arm gear didnt have enough clearance to run freely. If in fact this is true, then its a SIMPLE assembly mistake. Sounds like the clearance wasnt checked after pressing...uhhhhh....duhhhhhh. We've all done it. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to follow a trail of bread crumbs. End of Story .... and hardly the end of the world.


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## LDThomas

Thank you, Michael, for proving me correct. Much appreciated.


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## tasman

*Blown out of proportion*

First, let me make it clear I do not know either party involved (Joe or Dan) but have bought products from both without any issues. Having said that I think this whole thread has been blown out of proportion.

I have re-read Joe's original post several times and every time I read it I come away thinking this is a problem with every chassis he purchased. It is not until much later in the thread that it becomes clear he was talking about 2 chassis of the first 10 he tried.

Had that been clear from the start I think the entire tone of the thread would have been different and perhaps the reaction from the manufacturer might have been different.

However, as is often the case on this board someone begins the escalation of the thread with unneeded personal comments and/or insults or digs. Then the piling on begins with the each side defending "their guy" and then the thread degrades to the point of being perhaps entertaining but not very useful.

Just my take on things.


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## rodstrguy

This is the point I was trying to make... if no one understood it from my words...maybe these are clearer:
"It's a really common practice among slotters to try and isolate and fix the problem themselves. It's a curiosity and determination that perhaps only a tinkerer understands."

Thank you JISP!

I also believed it was more than one or two chassis and that is why I posted what I did... As for Dan, A.K.A. Lenny Miss-handling this...Don't think so, but that is my opinion only.


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## brownie374

lenny said:


> No Al, you were not 'fortunate'. that is how ALL the chassis shoul be and again, they are ALL bench tested personally by me before they get shipped out


:wave::wave::wave:


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## Grandcheapskate

After more than two months of trying to work with Dan on the issues with the 2 lam armatures, I realized it is in vain. His e-mails turned angry (and profane) and I see no purpose in continued exchanges. On another board, a small group of us were able to discuss in a very intelligent manner the issues with the 2 lam armature and we have determined the problems are in both design and in quality. I will not lay out those conclusions here (the conclusions and proof are available to anyone who wants to know), but I will make this statement:

*Everything I observed in my opening post on HT, and more, has been confirmed. EVERYTHING!*

On SCI Dan accused me of being on a "witch Hunt"; of finding issues that were not there. In that thread he told me to mail back all the gear plates for his inspection. Fearful I might not get them back, two weeks ago I mailed him just the two gear plates you see in the attached photos (I can provide the tracking number). I e-mailed him when they were sent and sent a follow-up e-mail after he had them for over a week. I have received no response to either e-mail and it's an open issue as to whether I will ever get those gear plates returned.

I then offered him a public challenge in the SCI thread:



> I was not going to pursue this any further but I want to give you the opportunity to physically see the armatures. If you see nothing amiss in the windings, you'll have the chance to show I am on a "witch hunt". However, if you do find the windings are loose and were not pulled tight around the poles, you must concede the probability there are more like it.
> 
> There are reasons other than aesthetics as to why the loose and/or "fat" windings are an issue.



Since Dan has apparently either disappeared or stopped responding to me, here is my open letter to Dash:

I tried very hard to be civil and actually tried to help you identify issues. I spent a great deal of time testing and inspecting the various chassis, and writing detailed e-mails to you. I even tested five gear plates you sent me and wrote up my observations. Yet somehow you continue to bully me and are under some insane notion I am here to sabotage the chassis. News flash - I didn't buy 100 of your chassis and spend a lot of money just so I could spend my life arguing with you. I have far more important responsibilities.

Did I seek the advice and comments of others on various boards? Yes I did. Did I make suggestions, observations and offer opinions. Yes I did. Did I ever say the chassis was junk and shouldn't be bought? No. Did I agree with the assertion the chassis could be made to run well with enough work? Maybe.

The question has always been how much work and why is it necessary. And this is the question which has been discussed seriously on some boards. You consider it a "witch hunt", I consider it an honest technical discussion and evaluation.

What started this entire mess was a post I made on Hobby Talk where I asked if anyone was experiencing the same issues with the 2 lam chassis as I was. No accusations, just a question along with my observations.

What were my initial observations? Three main points:

(1) I had several chassis which were very hard to turn by hand. Much harder than normal.

(2) My test chassis was heating up and slowing to a crawl.

(3) I noticed the crown gear was very close to the chassis, maybe even making contact.

Eventually you swooped in and declared I was the only one with these issues and the issues don't exist. You say your vendors have never heard a complaint and I can see how that's possible; especially since even I did not complain to my vendor, You wanted me to contact you directly and I did, spending a great deal of time exchanging, what to me, were hopefully fact finding and informative e-mails. Well, it is time to bare out some facts.

Items 1 and 2 above are directly attributable to the 2 lam armature. Removing the lower bushing to reduce the height of the armature was something you may have discussed in private with others, but NOWHERE, and I mean NOWHERE, was that information posted on either SCI or HT. Before posting on HT I searched through the archives of both boards and the only mention I found of issues with a Dash chassis were possible tight axle holes, some minimal flashing in the brush holes and noisy gears. All of these are minor and no reason for concern.

The combination of lower bushing, lack of upper armature clearance, incorrect design and poor quality 2 lam windings are directly responsible for items 1 and 2 above. You know that and have known that for a long time. Removing the lower bushing, while it does not identify or fix the root cause of the problem, seems to relieve some of the heating/binding issue. That is why you started removing the lower bushing and supplying a seperate spacer when selling the armature seperately. If not for that reason, then why?

But then you still left the bushing in place on some (not all) fully assembled chassis. Why? If you knew the bushing was a potential problem and were removing it on stand alone armatures, why not on the armatures in all assembled chassis? Those who got armatures without the lower bushing may never have experianced severe heating/binding issues. Some guys who figured it out were removing the bushing on their own, some even filing down the bushing and adding an upper spacer. If someone, anyone, contacted you at any time about the bushing it was because they were having issues. The fact those issues were resolved privately does not invalidate my observations.

Yet did you come into the HT thread and mention the lower bushing as a potential problem and offer a solution? No, you did not. You came in spewing fire and brimstone accusing me of making stuff up. Anyone can look it up without even being a member, it's a matter of public record.

As to item 3. You privately confirmed to me that the opening in the chassis for the crown gear does have a rounded corner where it should have been squared off. This allows much less clearance for the crown gear. Can the crown gear hit the chassis? Yes it could, but certainly not on every chassis and probably not on most. You even mention to me in one e-mail you have rarely seen the crown gear hit the chassis...but you have seen it (I kept all e-mails). Did you mention that in the HT thread? No, you did not. 

You could have avoided all of this turmoil by announcing to me and everyone else the issues with the 2 lam armature and the rounded corner in the HT thread. Instead you went the bullying route. And it is sad because had you taken the route of laying out the potential issues, most everyone would have accepted it because in order to remedy issues you first have to admit them. Had you confirmed my observations in the HT thread we may have been able to come to some kind of arrangement and everyone would know what to expect. Everyone would respect your honesty and straightforwardness. You would have come across as helpful.

It was an opportunity lost.

Do you honestly believe every single chassis/armature you produced is perfect? There cannot possibly be differences in them? That some cannot have issues? You believe no one has contacted you because no one ever had a chassis which needed to be fixed? You can honestly look at the 2 lam armatures and see not just significant differences in the windings among them, but some which are simply terrible?

I looked at the twelve 3 lam armatures you sent me and each one is nearly identical. Nice, neat, tight windings. You claim to have sold 15,000 chassis and inspected every one. Nothing got past you? I never said every chassis (or armature) was bad and I made that point multiple times.

Any independant observer, if shown a large group of 2 lam armatures will be able to see the difference in them. It is very striking. Some are tightly wound and neat. Others look fat and uneven, wires hanging loosely and some having extra wiring hanging off the solder tabs. There must be a reason. If you gave the specs to the factory and the armatures did not come out as expected, it is not your fault. However not investigating after it is brought to your attention, or at least discussing it in an adult manner, is all on you.

That is one of the most baffling things to me, your apparent lack of curiousity as to the root cause of the issue. 

I have had discussions on another board with others about why the 2 lam has heating/binding issues which the 3 lam apparently does not. There was measuring and testing done and we have come to our conclusions based on solid evidence. I could lay out our findings but it's too late for that now and you seem to have no interest. Trying to find the root cause of the 2 lam problems should have been high on your list and you should have welcomed the help others were willing to offer you. Instead you lashed out at the messanger.

Another opportunity lost.

You say you have bent over backwards trying to resolve the issues with me. I ask you...what have you done? I sent you 10 chassis to test and all I asked was for them to be returned when you were done (you found at least 2 of the 10 heated up). You sent me five gear plates to test and I tested them, returned them and gave you my findings...you haven't even looked at them. You declare you inspect every armature before it leaves and that it is impossible I have a couple armatures with loose wiring. Yet I showed you pictures of those armatures - 2 of them in a sample size of only 7. Did you even read that e-mail? I doubt it because you completely misunderstood the problem and then asked me to resend the photos but wanted no explaination. Did you think I faked those photos? Even with pictoral proof you are in denial. Those pictures are included here for all to see and judge for themselves.

Now just recently you sent me a couple profanity laced e-mails because of a private e-mail I sent to one of your vendors which should have remained private but was forwarded to you. You fired off those e-mails one after another. My private e-mail was my personal apology to that vendor in the event going public with my findings were to hurt sales and to explain my reasons. It was not for public consumption but still does not excuse your boorish behaviour.

Would you like those profanity laced angry e-mails made public so everyone can see them? I have a record of nearly all our e-mails. Would you like them all made public so everyone can judge for themselves if I have been in any way unreasonable or lacked civility? I would not have a problem with all my messages being made public. How about you? Let everyone see how we treated each other.

I tried being civil and helpful in all our e-mail exchanges, keeping many things private. Somehow I think you mistake being civil and cooperative as weakness and figure bullying will get me to go away. Wrong. I am dropping this issue simply because it's not worth my time any more and I see no good reason to continue. Based on your last e-mails, you have now "jumped the shark" as they say in TV. You DEMAND, not ask, for me to tell you who has sent me private messages about having the same issues. I don't know where you get off DEMANDING anything, but I forwarded you the contents of those PMs when given permission to do so. The last time I did so you told me it was old news and you didn't want them anymore.

I cannot force people to come forward and tell you about issues they may have had. And after they see your online treatment of people, why would they? The only perception most people have of you, me or anyone online is the way we conduct ourselves through our posts and e-mails. I am proud of the way I conduct myself, both publicly and privately.

If I only had a couple chassis and one or two had issues, I wouldn't bother contacting you...I'd just fix them. But I saw a systematic problem and while it may not affect every chassis, it's there. And it deserves to be diagnosed and corrected. 

I have said this before and I'll say it again. If someone bought only a couple chassis there is no reason to contact you if there are problems. They either fix them as best they can or break down the chassis and use the components - components (except for the 2 lam armature itself) which I have always told you are of high quality. A couple people have told me they have fixed the very issues I brought up, but to a man they say they would not do it for more than a handful of chassis. There are even posts to that effect if you look through the threads. 

Now, can I really trust your offer to review all the gear plates, exchanging those which are questionable, and return them in a timely manner? You are going into this convinced every gear plate has already passed inspection. Are you really going to turn around and say "Hey, you're right. I screwed up. There are some bad armatures here". I don't see that happening and I don't think I can take that chance. Even with undeniable photo proof you insist it cannot be true.

Remember in the HT thread your offer to buy back the chassis if I wasn't happy? You rescinded that offer declaring you will not buy them back. Thing is, I never asked for a refund. I was open to an exchange for 3 lam armatures/gear plates since those appear not to have the same issues as the 2 lam armature. But you have closed the door on that one as well. Too bad. It cost you nothing and ends our discussions. Instead of looking at our e-mail exchanges as helpful you just got more and more angry and frustrated, finally ruining any chance we have of working cooperativly.

But you can relax. I'm done. Rather than take advantage of many minds working together, you can figure it out yourself.

It's another opportunity lost.

Joe


----------



## 1976Cordoba

I got one that's tighter than a nun on Sunday too. Builds heat like a mofo. Will definitely be checking the windings & other items mentioned in this thread - Thanks.


----------



## Bill Hall

"Demanda" has insisted that this is all very old news from 2014 and everyone is to shut up about this "non-issue". 

Joe's fubbared chassis were back ordered and delivered in 2015....thud. Hopefully that was the "never ending gobstopping" apologists feinting after finally accepting this one immutable fact.

Somebody has some serious 'splainen' to do Lucy!

****

I always wanted to know WHY the specially appointed Dash testers were playing Hopscotch with an armature bushing in excess of .200"; on a design that has been tried and true for over 50 years. Think about it! If yer twenty HUNREDTHS off, this means my mom can see the difference. 

Shows you what and idiot I am. It's not the same design, not even close. Well OK, it IS a pancake. This is why Dan has fought tooth and nail to minimize any knowledge escaping or open discussion from occurring. He didnt want you to know WHY.

Ever see the Dash 2 Lam and an Aurora 2 Lam side by side? FUNNY neither had anyone else.

It was high time for some independent testing with a proper side by side comparison. As I have 52 still photos, 7 videos, and a full page of measurements and notations from T-jet, AFX, Magna, Xtrac, JLTO, Playing Mantis, and Dash, I'll spare you the horror and give y'all the shorter pasteurized version. It's pretty simple actually.












Dash arms are JUST Autoworld 3 Lam units with copper commutator substituted. Dash is on the left. AW is on the right.













Any doubters? Dash is on the left. AW is on the right.














To make the 2 Lam they had to remove a Lam, but chose to remove the wrong Lam. They removed the lower of the available three instead of the upper one. This choice inverted the Lam stack as it would relate to what we all know as the 2 Lam T-jet. AW is on the left. Dash is on the right: Note the high bundles .












The inversion obviously leaves the unwound stack on the armature blank sitting high. Then Ohms Law snuck right up and slapped them on the chops! Add the extra windings required to get to 16+ ohms and the wire bundles become taller than the upper stop bushing on the armature shaft. With no upper stop, the spring thrust of the commutator brushes push the three sets of winding into the gear plate like a vegematic. T-jet is on left: the bupper bushing is free so there will be top clearance at the gear plate. Dash 2 Lam is on the right: the upper bushing is not free! There will be no top clearance at the gearplate. Note the huge stack height difference.

It didnt have to be like this. LOOK! There is an extra mile of WASTED clearance trapped between the commutator plate and the bottom of the wire bundles. See? They could have just pressed the stack down, had somebody caught it before they were all wound. 

Thats why the prototype testers were shuffling the spacers around in 2014.

***** 











So if it's all a non-issue that was corrected, why were Joe's 2015 chassis unretrofitted? If every gear plate is personally assembled and tested by the manufacturer why do Joe, myself, and others have windings look like a can of silly string blew up? 

It's been in excess of 3 months since the original enquiry and going on two weeks for a winding autopsy that simply requires an "uh hu". We can only assume that Demanda took a trip to Egypt and is still swimming in Denial.


----------



## Grandcheapskate

Bill Hall said:


> It's been in excess of 3 months since the original enquiry and going on two weeks for a winding autopsy that simply requires an "uh hu".


 By it's very nature, the silence speaks volumes.

I think it is VERY important to point out the removal of the lower bushing is not the solution to the problems inherent in both the 2 lam and 3 lam armatures. While the removal of the lower bushing may relieve some of the tightness and heat issues (especially in the 2 lam), the main problem still exists.

So the "retrofit" is only a way to mask the underlying problem. It would appear from measurements and photos the Dash armature's base construction is identical to that of the AW armature and is NOT identical to an Aurora. This is critical because if the relationship between the armature laminations, comm plate, upper and lower bushing is not correct, the armature is destined for failure. There is not a lot of wiggle room inside the chassis.

The decision to copy the AW armature's structure rather than use the Aurora as your template, compounded by the error of using a larger lower bushing and then using the 3 lam upper lamination for the 2 lam armature has doomed the Dash armature. No amount of retrofitting is going to fix these armatures, especially if you get one with loose windings.

We all know the AW armatures have QC issues of their own. You could ask the question as to why the Dash armature binds up but the AW, among it's myriad of issues, does not seem to have that particular failing. I believe there are two reasons:

1. The AW armature uses a very small lower bushing. To the naked eye it looks about the same size as an Aurora. This makes the AW armature shorter than the Dash, saving valuable space.

2. The AW gear plate has a raised circle on the underside. This raised circle mates with the upper bushing to create a built in spacer. It may well have been added once it was discovered they used too small an upper bushing. Without that extra spacer, we may well have seen AW armature wires rubbing the underside of the gear plate also. 

All this info, and more, could have been given freely to Dash in a constructive way had the interest to find the root cause of the issues been a priority.

I am truly sad this happened.

Joe


----------



## lenny

alpink said:


> " ... you CANT remove the top lam. It's not that hard to figure out why..."
> 
> no, you cannot, you must SUBSTITUTE one with a shorter tang that anchors to the commutator plate.
> 
> now, WHO has degenerated this thread into a PERSONAL bash?


You're like a freaking old wash woman, my God MUST you wiegh in on EVERYTHING???? The thread was degenerated long ago And just accelersted with more product bashing and name calling. You seem to be one of the people with issues about the arm. Send them back. If you"re unhappy with them, return them. If you're unhappy because I don't come to this board to address issues and prefer to handle them through one on one communication, get over it. I knew I was setting myself up years ago taking on this project and people like you keep reminding me how right I was.


----------



## Dyno Dom

What started off as a simple question for remedy unfortunately escalated with unnecessary bashing of a product.
I've met and spoken with Joe at HO shows and believe his intent to be genuine.
On the other hand there is a small manufacturer who is taking on a difficult project due to complexity of attempting to satisfy a dwindling market for a product to be historically correct, high quality amid the potential technical pitfalls.
Keep in mind that larger companies with far greater resources have directed their 
attention away from products with high return potential.
Dash has been successful to provide quality bodies and 3 lam chassis, possibly
product deficiency inquiries could be directed in a more patient and discreet manner.


----------



## alpink

I have been a great supporter of Dan Cashmer through many years of buying his excellent bodies and recently the DASH chassis.
many times in the past, when I have come to his defence publicly I have been damned by Dan Casmer himself.
the man should NOT try to do public communications as his patience is very short and his understanding of the spoken and written word is askew.
I have been very happy with ALL the DASH products that I have purchased.

but I also recognize when there is something amiss.

alas, it doesn't look like a slimline type chassis will ever be produced.

I do, indeed, recognize the difficulties in getting a product developed and to market successfully.
financially ....

in fact, I personally know one person with a great deal of armature knowledge, wisdom and understanding who was personally snubbd by Dan Cashmer when he offered his services in developing and trouble shooting the armature.

in spite of that, I continued to support Dan Cashmer in his quest and have bought many chassis and armatures along with a plethora of bodies.
again, I am quite happy with ALL the DASH products I own.

deficieancy possibilities were brought to Dan Cashmers attention privately long before any discussion was public.
he denied all possibilities, claiming that he assembled and tested every single chassis that was sold.

now that several people have done extensive research with quality instruments and provided detailed documentation of their findings along with photographic evidence, Dan Cashmer STILL denies any product limitations.

this is NOT a witch hunt.
this is a quest for the truth.

as I see it, "the Emporer has no clothes"!

I respect everyone involved in this issue no matter what their stance or loyalty is.
all opinions are valid.
facts, on the other hand, are difficult to hide.

I, absolutely applaud Dan Cashmer for his persistence in attaining the goal of a near perfect replacement for a very loved product.
perhaps a bit more understanding on his part would alleviate all this consternation and assist him in coming to a conclusion that is satisfactory to a majority.

one more thing, not nearly as many souls come to chat and bulletin bords as those who have bought Dan Cashmer's products.
this issue is sort of in a very closed enviroment and unknown to the masses.
many of whom have no idea how to get answers to questions they have about their purchases.

summarily, Dan Cashmer was offered some of the most expert advice and assistance along with huge financial support.
he has steadfastly refused to accept anything but money.

in closing, my posts are NOT editted in any way and I think it is quite clear that I made no dispersions as to Dan Cashmer's character.
on the other hand, his posts are quite clear, not only in language, but tone.
I keep an open mind that everyone can clear the air of this unfortunate outburst of emotion and get back to having fun playing with toy cars.


----------



## Bill Hall

On what planet is three months of discretion, tiptoeing, and cat and mouse not enough time to conclude a simple warranty claim; regarding a manufacturer's "old news retrofit" that knowingly was not completed to the product that was assembled, paid for, and then shipped well after the fact?

Dont potential consumers and investors have a right to know? 

Dans just mad because he has to retrofit or warranty them, and now everyone knows why. The festering band aid has been torn off, and I have been dutifully shot as the messenger. Like we didnt know that was coming.

Do we really need to go into why a manufacturer trying to strong arm "discretion" is wrong? :freak:


----------



## lenny

Bill Hall said:


> On what planet is three months of discretion, tiptoeing, and cat and mouse not enough time to conclude a simple warranty claim; regarding a manufacturer's "old news retrofit" that knowingly was not completed to the product that was assembled, paid for, and then shipped well after the fact?
> 
> Dont potential consumers and investors have a right to know?
> 
> Dans just mad because he has to retrofit or warranty them, and now everyone knows why. The festering band aid has been torn off, and I have been dutifully shot as the messenger. Like we didnt know that was coming.
> 
> Do we really need to go into why a manufacturer trying to strong arm "discretion" is wrong? :freak:


Dude, you really need to shut your freaking useless piehole... I'm not MAD I have to retrofit anything. You know this story from one side and as per normal for you you come up with some insipid witticism that seems to portend some BS higher intelligence. I cant say this any plainer, Bill. Eff you. I've had enough of your crap. you don't like my stuff, return it. I'd be more than happy to give your money back. You dont like my attitude, eff you again.


----------



## lenny

alpink said:


> in fact, I personally know one person with a great deal of armature knowledge, wisdom and understanding who was personally snubbd by Dan Cashmer when he offered his services in developing and trouble shooting the armature.


Really, who?


----------



## lenny

alpink said:


> I keep an open mind that everyone can clear the air of this unfortunate outburst of emotion and get back to having fun playing with toy cars.


an open mind, my ass. you revel in veiled slamming of me and my products.


----------



## Bill Hall

So you're gonna be room-mates with TL in the Ivory Tower? Or are you just moving in to the neighborhood? I hear it was built with real elephant tusks! 

Face it, you probably got stuck with (15,000 - the 3 Lam) copper grinders and you've been insufferably sulky and cranky ever since. We tried and tried to warn ya.

You ungratefully dont even appreciate ya got super lucky and dodged a bullet, considering that the retrofit actually works. It aint pretty, but it's a whole lot better than the MM2 result. Unfortunately YOU are still required do the retrofits correctly (or at all?) and maybe quit blaming everyone else.

The Factory pooped in your bed, and you quickly covered it with a sheet. Then you wiped it on Joes pillow and pointed at him after he kindly purchased your product. 

.... but now yer really mad because there's finally a hint of transparency for the consumer?


----------



## alpink

lenny said:


> again Al, eff you. dumbass





lenny said:


> an open mind, my ass. you revel in veiled slamming of me and my products.


like shooting fish in a barrell
more fun than a barrell of monkeys
"I yam what I yam"


----------



## lenny

No bigger monkey than u.


----------



## Bill Hall

lenny said:


> ******I'd be more than happy to give your money back.


Nawwww thats OK, but thanks anyway. I couldnt do that to you with a clear conscience knowing that I may have been somewhat at fault.












I honestly do think I really got my moneys worth.


----------



## Bill Hall

Not really


----------



## lenny

Bill Hall said:


> Not really


yawn.... Either return it for a refund, or shut up about it.


----------



## Grandcheapskate

lenny said:


> yawn.... Either return it for a refund, or shut up about it.


First of all, I sincerely want to express my condolences on the loss of your father-in-law. That transcends everything that is happening in this thread. 

Now, back to the issue at hand. WOW. Just WOW! From what I am reading, all civility has been tossed out the window. I want to make a couple comments in this thread before I'm sure it gets locked down tight. If I have time, I will add much more.

If anyone had any doubts about the type of treatment I got in my private e-mail exchanges with Mr. Cashmer, let the postings in this thread be your guide.

Dan, I can certainly understand having to deal with your loss and needing to put this issue on the back burner. But you didn't miss just one e-mail. You "missed" the e-mail informing you I was mailing in the chassis, you "missed" the follow-up e-mail about 10 days later asking whether you had looked them over, and you never contacted me even though you received a package from me. Unless you completely stopped reading e-mails or opening mail, a simple note to me about having more serious issues and I would have given you all the time you needed.

Dan, I will not be sending back any more chassis, nor will I attempt to get a refund. I have already made arrangements to sell the 86 complete new 2 lam chassis to a vendor for a loss. However, I would like to have back replacements for the two gear plates I have sent you. That will conclude our business. I will write you privately with that request.



lenny said:


> Joe, in the interest of cordial communications, I received your 2 'arms. And the 5 gear plates, 4 of which you marked as good and the other 'tight? Seriously, because it didn't fit like 100% smooth you have an issue with this? I knew that trying to make a product that was 'supposed to fit 100% with legacy crap' would be a problem, and it was/is. So tell you what, pack em all up, send them to Tom or myself and we''' refund you. OK? OK. Good.


 Whoa, let's get this straight. First of all, I marked 2 of the 5 gear plates as having issues; and these were 3 lam armatures. And it wasn't just the fit (in YOUR chassis, not an Aurora), it was the fact they were so tight in the chassis they would not turn under power. Did you even try to run them unmodified? Too bad I didn't take a photo of the review I sent you.



Dyno Dom said:


> Dash has been successful to provide quality bodies and 3 lam chassis, possibly product deficiency inquiries could be directed in a more patient and discreet manner.


 Dom, I spent nearly three months trying to work with Dan privately on these issues. However, as time went on the replies I received became more and more combative until I finally received what I consider to be a disturbingly angry e-mail...much like some of the posts you see above. At that point you realize working this out privately is impossible. You can see even in all the posts by Lenny in the last day or so, there is no admission of the poor windings on the armatures I pictured. Rather he throws it back at me as if I did something wrong or I am seeing something not obvious to everyone else. Nobody would be satisfied getting armatures like those I show.

Now I need to more carefully re-read the posts from the last day before commenting further.

Joe


----------



## lenny

Grandcheapskate said:


> I can certainly understand having to deal with your loss and put this issue on the back burner. But you didn't miss just one e-mail. You "missed" the e-mail informing you I was mailing in the chassis, you "missed" the follow-up e-mail about 10 days later asking whether you had looked them over, and you never contacted me even though you received a package from me. Unless you completely stopped reading e-mails or opening mail, a simple note to me about having more serious issues and I would have given you all the time you needed.


You asked if I looked them over and I said no I hadnt. Then I open the box a few days ago and in it were 4 plates you had labled as 'good'. and then another that was labled as 'fits tight, gets hot'. Seriously???? Tight? And the armature still had the lower bushing on it which has been identified A FREAKING YR AGO as a potential problem...
As far as fit, you have to be freaking kidding me. 'Tight'? I tried it and it fit well. 

Over the course of the past few months I have worked closely with you to resolve the seemingly endless stream of issues you had. This, AFTER I had to find out about these by being alerted to them from someone who saw your postings. Fat windings, skinny windings, bushing, no bushing yada, yada, yada. Your 'witch hunt' had people convinced that there were 4 separate versions of the 2 lam arm, and that they were made in separate production runs. There aren't and they weren't. And you had people on SCI doing the SAME EFFING MEASUREMENTS and TESTS that Mike King and Rich Dumas did over a year ago!!! And a few arms where the wire had walked. And this was all posted BEFORE you ever contacted me, where I could have told you EXACTLY what the situation was and why the bushings were removed.


Per your request I replaced 10 of the chassis with completely unassembled chassis and 3 lam arms. After your email to Tom Stumpf, I then got testy with you. Never beforehand. And only then because you appeared to be sabotaging my relationship with one of my dealers.


----------



## lenny

Grandcheapskate said:


> Dom, I spent nearly three months trying to work with Dan privately on these issues. However, as time went on the replies I received became more and more combative until I finally received what I consider to be a disturbingly angry e-mail...much like some of the posts you see above. At that point you realize working this out privately is impossible. You can see even in all the posts by Lenny in the last day or so, there is no admission of the poor windings on the armatures I pictured. Rather he throws it back at me as if I did something wrong or I am seeing something not obvious to everyone else. Nobody would be satisfied getting armatures like those I show.
> 
> Joe


Yes, after you emailed Tom Stumpf going on and on about how bad these chassis were. Dude, take some ownership for your own actions.


----------



## lenny

Grandcheapskate said:


> Whoa, let's get this straight. First of all, I marked 2 of the 5 gear plates as having issues; and these were 3 lam armatures. And it wasn't just the fit (in YOUR chassis, not an Aurora), it was the fact they were so tight in the chassis they would not turn under power. Did you even try to run them unmodified? Too bad I didn't take a photo of the review I sent you.
> 
> Joe


Woah, no you didn't. what you sent me were 4 gear plates, 3 marked 'good', 1 marked tight fit and a complete chassis with no label on it whatsoever. . Woah...


----------



## Grandcheapskate

lenny said:


> You asked if I looked them over and I said no I hadnt. Then I open the box a few days ago and in it were 4 plates you had labled as 'good'. and then another that was labled as 'fits tight, gets hot'. Seriously???? Tight? And the armature still had the lower bushing on it which has been identified A FREAKING YR AGO as a potential problem...
> As far as fit, you have to be freaking kidding me. 'Tight'? I tried it and it fit well.
> 
> Over the course of the past few months I have worked closely with you to resolve the seemingly endless stream of issues you had. This, AFTER I had to find out about these by being alerted to them from someone who saw your postings. Fat windings, skinny windings, bushing, no bushing yada, yada, yada. Your 'witch hunt' had people convinced that there were 4 separate versions of the 2 lam arm. There aren't. And you had people on SCI doing the SAME EFFING MEASUREMENTS and TESTS that Mike King and Rich Dumas did over a year ago!!! And a few arms where the wire had walked. And this was all posted BEFORE you ever contacted me, where I could have told you EXACTLY what the situation was and why the bushings were removed.
> 
> 
> Per your request I replaced 10 of the chassis with completely unassembled chassis and 3 lam arms. After your email to Tom Stumpf, I then got testy with you. Never beforehand. And only then because you appeared to be sabotaging my relationship with one of my dealers.
> 
> Let me ask you a question, do you know what youre doing regarding T-Jets? Because I really don't believe you do.


 First of all, since you are reading these posts, can you return or replace my two gear plates?

I have had T-Jets since 1969. Hundreds of runners and thousands in the collection. Original Aurora, Model Motoring, JL and AW. I have never had one burn out. They all run, some better than others. You are barking up the wrong tree here.

First of all, clearly 2 of the 5 gear plates I sent you are marked as having issues. I also sent you a Dash chassis. If I remember correctly, I had each gear plate in a separate plastic bag and a note inside each bag. One did say tight because it took a little work to get it seated properly, but it was the binding that was the real issue. 

Now let me ask you a question since I answered yours. Did you put each of those gear plates into THAT chassis and run them around a track?

And here is the big question. Do you or do you not agree the armatures on the last two gear plates I sent you have not been wound correctly? Careful with this because if you say those armatures are of a quality you accept, the photos do not lie. And we have pics of more armatures just like them.

Joe


----------



## lenny

Grandcheapskate said:


> First of all, clearly 2 of the 5 gear plates I sent you are marked as having issues. I also sent you a Dash chassis. If I remember correctly, I had each gear plate in a separate plastic bag and a note inside each bag. One did say tight because it took a little work to get it seated properly, but it was the binding that was the real issue.
> 
> Now let me ask you a question since I answered yours. Did you put each of those gear plates into THAT chassis and run them around a track?
> 
> And here is the big question. Do you or do you not agree the armatures on the last two gear plates I sent you have not been wound correctly? Careful with this because if you say those armatures are of a quality you accept, the photos do not lie.
> 
> Joe


careful with this? OK, whatever. No, those do not appear to be wound correctly. But to extrapolate this to say that this armature is a dud is an gross mis-statement. Because it's not. But do you appear to have a couple that are bad? yes, you do. 

And you're wrong, you have 3 gearplates marked as good, 1 with BS about the fit and that it gets hot, and then a complete chassis. There were not 5 gearplates, unless you consider the complete chassis as a gear plate. And that chassis was not marked as all. 

And no, I did not run them on a track. Sorry.

Did you or did you not try to sabotage my relationship with Tom, a dealer of mine?


----------



## slotking

Wow
Just to note, before I say anything, I am also guilty of the following:

Some comes out with a product and we have a tendency to complain if it is not perfect. 

I think if we see an issue, it may be worth contacting the vendor and providing suggestions. But like many companies that mold items, the molding is not always perfect. I remember sorting through a case of t-jets because they were all not perfect.

As far as the dash-jets and arms I have purchased, no issues yet.
Do I expect to have problems? Yes, I have had issues with t-jets, tycos, p3's, T1, g3, afx, mega-g, and some others.

So are some of you saying it would better if dan did not make the dash-jet??


----------



## Grandcheapskate

lenny said:


> careful with this? OK, whatever. No, those do not appear to be wound correctly. But to extrapolate this to say that this armature is a dud is an gross mis-statement. Because it's not. But do you appear to have a couple that are bad? yes, you do.
> 
> And you're wrong, you have 3 gearplates marked as good, 1 with BS about the fit and that it gets hot, and then a complete chassis. There were not 5 gearplates, unless you consider the complete chassis as a gear plate. And that chassis was not marked as all.
> 
> And no, I did not run them on a track. Sorry.
> 
> Did you or did you not try to sabotage my relationship with Tom, a dealer of mine?


 Okay, let's take this slowly. I'm even willing to walk this back and try to make the conversation constructive.

There were five gear plates and I may have shipped one in the chassis so the internal parts were secure. If so, there was a note included with the chassis. Two of the five did have binding and heat issues. Why is it "BS" when I point out it gets abnormally hot real quick?

You declared numerous times you inspect every armature and have NEVER seen a bad one like that. I never expected you to catch every bad armature that came out of the factory, but your insistence that those types of armatures cannot possibly exist was simply not believable. I only sent you the two worse ones from the first 7 armatures I closely inspected. I had another 80+ before I just sold them off. Do you doubt there are more?

What I have tried to impress upon you is the possibility the factory got more sloppy as time went on. I see vast winding variations on the 2 lam armatures; variations which cause problems. The three lams I have are neat and tight.

As to the armature being a dud, I never said that either. I pointed out the root cause of all the issues and why it cannot perform well without modification. More on this later.

And I did not try to sabotage your relationship with anyone. I wrote a private e-mail to my vendor explaining why I was going public with my observations AFTER it was obvious our discussions had hit rock bottom. I explained that in an earlier post. Regardless of what I may or may not have said in that e-mail, your relationship with your vendors should not be so fragile as to be destroyed by one e-mail from me. I simply don't hold that much influence.

Now the armature. Are you interested as to the root cause of why the lower bushing needs to be removed and the possible need to add an upper spacer? I can explain it in detail if you are interested. I make that offer because if you know the root cause of the problem, you can correct it going forward.

From the beginning I wanted the chassis to succeed, whether you choose to believe that or not.

Joe


----------



## Grandcheapskate

slotking said:


> So are some of you saying it would better if dan did not make the dash-jet??


Absolutely not. There is an issue with the armature which is why you suggested to Dan long ago the lower bushing should be removed. The question is *WHY* does that need to happen? And why are guys adding upper spacers?

It is the complete resistance and apparent lack of interest in uncovering the root cause of the problem, and the denial problems exist, which has caused all the turmoil.

Joe


----------



## alpink

slotking said:


> Wow
> 
> So are some of you saying it would better if dan did not make the dash-jet??


it is really amazing how a solution trying to be offered is interpreted as " it would better if dan did not make the dash-jet"

I think that shows how off base this discussion has become.


----------



## lenny

Grandcheapskate said:


> Now the armature. Are you interested as to the root cause of why the lower bushing needs to be removed and the possible need to add an upper spacer? I can explain it in detail if you are interested. I make that offer because if you know the root cause of the problem, you can correct it going forward.
> 
> 
> 
> Joe


It's a very small area to work within, the bushing on the bottom tends to be too thick and an upper spacer, like the teflon spacers that we included with many individual armatures in which we DID remove the bottom bushing, positions the arm lower in the chassis.


----------



## alpink

*absurd*



lenny said:


> as of this moment, I will no longer address any comments or complaints about Dash that are posted here or other boards. This is an absurd way to handle customer issues. The fastest and best way to contact me is my personal email [email protected]. There are ways to contact me through my website and facebook page.
> if you have any issues with any Dash products, contact me directly and I will bend over backwards to address and fix the issues.
> Thank you.


and, that is the way it is


----------



## Grandcheapskate

lenny said:


> It's a very small area to work within, the bushing on the bottom tends to be too thick and an upper spacer, like the teflon spacers that we included with many individual armatures in which we DID remove the bottom bushing, positions the arm lower in the chassis.


Agreed. But that is not the root cause of the problem. It is a remedy for those willing to modify the armature.

The Dash 3 lam armature seems to have taken it's basic design measurements off the AW 3 lam armature. We need to agree on this.

This is critical because once the wires are installed, there is a lot of room trapped inside the armature between the bottom of the windings and the top of the comm which makes the basic construction of the armature taller than necessary, leaving less room both on the upper and lower side. You cannot regain the space trapped inside the armature.

When you look at an Aurora 2 lam armature, note how little space is left between the windings and the top of the comm. There's almost none. That leaves much more room outside the armature for the bushings and any up and down movement. Compare that to the space left trapped inside a Dash 2 lam.

Now let's get back to the Dash 3 lam. The upper bushing is there to be a buffer between the bottom of the gear plate and the armature wire. The bushing prevents the wires from contacting the gear plate when the armature is "pushed up" (either due to acceleration or the force of the brush springs). The bushing can only do its job if it stands above the wire bundles. If the wires are higher, they will contact the gear plate causing wear and heat.

As I have noted before, AW seems to have recognized the upper bushing they used was not tall enough (or they got lucky). Therefore on the underside of the gear plate you will find a raised circle which acts as an upper spacer. So even if their wire bundle exceeds the height of the upper bushing, they built in a spacer. Not the best solution but it apparently does the job.

The Dash gear plate is like the Aurora gear plate and is flat on the underside. Therefore the Dash armature relies on the upper bushing to provide the complete buffer between the armature wires and the gear plate. This is fine as long as the wire bundles stay below the top of the upper bushing.

Now note the much larger size of the upper bushing on an Aurora armature. This is why the Aurora armature wire bundles do not hit the gear plate.

On the Dash 3 lam armature, it seems the wire bundles do stay below the upper bushing. I cannot comment directly on that because I have not yet used the 3 lam armature other than on those 5 test gear plates. However, there’s not a lot of excess bushing showing. Should the wiring on the 3 lam armature not be neat and tight, the wire bundles could rise above the upper bushing and you get binding, wire wear and heat.

Then it was time to create the 2 lam armature and here is where a critical error was made. The lowest lamination was removed but nothing else was changed. That means the overall height of a blank 2 lam armature is the same as a 3 lam armature. You saved no space by removing the lowest lamination. An extra step was needed. The upper lamination, the one with the tangs to hold the comm plate, needed to be replaced with an upper lamination with shorter tangs (the tangs shorter by the length of approximately one lamination). This would have made the blank 2 lam armature shorter than a blank 3 lam armature.

Why is this important? In order to get the additional resistance for the 2 lam armature, it requires more wire than a 3 lam armature. More wire means higher wire bundles. Since the starting sizes of the armatures are the same and the upper lamination on both is located at the same position relative to the comm plate, the additional wire required for the 2 lam armature causes the wire bundles on a 2 lam to be higher than on a 3 lam. The additional wire can easily rise above the top of the upper bushing and therefore it is the wires of the armature which contact the underside of the gear plate and not the upper bushing. This is especially true when the 2 lam armatures are not wound neat and tight but rather show an erratic winding pattern. This is the reason the overall height of the 2 lam, from the top of the wires to the bottom of the lower bushing, is greater than the 3 lam despite having one less lamination.

Now you can see the root cause for the need to remove the lower bushing. The space lost inside the armature leaves very little room outside the armature for both the upper and lower bushing, along with some free space. With both bushings installed and an erratic wiring job on the armature, it is very possible the overall height of the armature is greater than the internal space of the chassis; hence a complete bind.

By removing the lower bushing you are trying to regain some of the space lost (trapped) inside the armature where it serves no purpose. It may seem to get around the problem, but the wires are still exposed topside and nothing buffers them from hitting the gear plate unless you also install an upper spacer.

What are the fixes required to get the armature right?

First, in my view, both bushings are the wrong size. The upper bushing needs to be a bit bigger so there is no chance the wires will contact the gear plate. The lower bushing needs to be smaller because the larger bushing serves no purpose other than to use up valuable space.

Second, a separate upper lamination needs to be used for a 2 lam armature. You can’t use the same upper lamination for both types of armature.

Third, the internal construction of the Dash armature needs to use the measurements of an Aurora armature and not an AW armature. You need to minimize the space wasted inside the armature so you give yourself much more room outside the armature.

Fourth, you need to contact the factory and correct the way the armatures are being wound. If you seriously look at the 2 lam armatures you have to admit the quality of the windings varies far too much. And it matters. Those with loose wirings are not going to last and there is no way a racer would ever use one. Those with loose windings should never have made it out the door.

Joe


----------



## lenny

All really nice suggestions but none of them will be implemented. 

We're completely out of all arms, 2 lam and 3. Contrary to what *BILLIE the DONKEY* wrote before, we aren't stuck with 15,000 3 lam copper grinders, or whatever the hell she wrote. How that was even arrived at is a mystery to me. Also, disputing an ealier pic from *aforementioned useless excuse for a human being *, we have never used green wire, another attempt to discredit our product By picturing a pile of green wire along with what I assume are unassembled dash arms..


regarding this armature, the number of companies that make anything like it are a grand total of 1. 4 or 5 years ago I approached some motor manufacturers had some samples made. They all had to be hand made because no one makes this arm. . I approached 3 or 4 motor companies and all together I had perhaps 200 total samples made between them. As mentioned, all were hand made, lams were hand cut and ground and each was hand wound.. I posted pics here of some of them and one of the companies came very close to aurora size and shape. I believe I worked with Kevin McAvoy on testing these samples and overall they were very good. 

Sadly because of min order quantities and price I couldn't go with them. I also tried getting armatures made in the US. Only one company responded and their quote was $7.50/ea. 

So I found the company that AW used and approachedd them, reluctantly. I knew the quality issues with the AW arm and needed to make sure that I could make changes. The first change was a copper comm plate. They refused to do it. The AW comm plate is a 2 clad piece with copper under tin, maybe aluminum. I can't remember. The factory claimed it had to be this way so that the comms wouldn't oxidize. I was finally able to persuade them to change to all copper. The second change wasn't big but it helped make a huge diff in quality from the AW arm. There is a small plastic spacer between the comm plate and the lower lamination. This prevents the comm plate from being pushed up towards the stack when these are assembled. This is why some AW arms have concave comm plates. Thirdly, I went through about 8 rounds of samples with this company because the shafts were consistently skewed and the runout was nuts. Part of the reason for the lower bushing is if the solder jobs were bad, they wouldn't rub on the floor of the motor box. I also wanted to change the color of the lams and could not do so because the suppier for the silicon steel only offered it in one color.

After they made these changes, I decided to come out with the arm in the same 3 lam 14 ohm configuration. Again disputing what was posted earlier with the totally brain dead comment 'we tried to warn ya' bullshit, the armature turned out to be a very high quality piece. Because of the racers, that arm was modified to be a 2 lam 16 ohm piece. Which brings us to the present. 

Not dissing what you have experienced, we have sent arms to Lucky Bobs, Michael Block, Rick Phyliss and not a single complaint has come up. And I ask them occasionally. In fact Mike Block was preparing a number of cars this week with the 2 lam and I asked him again if he noticed any problems like what you described. He said he hadn't but would watch for it. Same with Jag Hobbies, Andy Tedesco and Tom Stumpf. Although I believe Andy told me this week that he had found 1.

All of our armatures are sold out. Because I want to take chassis dev in a different direction than something that will crossfit with existing Aurora stuff, the 2 lam and the 14 ohm 3 lam will most likely not be made again. 

On the dash FB page I posted pics of our upcoming 4 lam arm. As I posted here a few years ago, the 3 lam will be our standard arm and will be released in diff resistances. And the 4 lam is something we targeted for the dash evo. so there you have the history of my search for an armature and why I settled for the arm that is similar to the AW arm.

Any other suggestions related to any tooling changes to the plastic just aren't going to happen. The T Dash chassis pieces are final products and there is no compelling reason to change.


----------



## Ralphthe3rd

This last post from Dan is very interesting and informative :thumbsup:


----------



## Bill Hall

*I'll now excuse myself from Joe's thread.*

Here's why, you close minded insufferably abusive foul mouthed bully.











*Shoulder!*











*No shoulder!*

You got less than nothing if your defending the above; while discounting legitimate claims of binding, overheating, loss of power and eventual armature failure.

Everyone knows your a complete "Richard", so filibuster, flail, and call me anything you like. I've always been immune to your type. The pix illustrate quite nicely who the delusional dumbass really is. Im quite satisfied that most all of the guys get it; and that those who might need to can find it later. You on the other hand will never get it.


----------



## lenny

point made


----------



## lenny

point made


----------



## slotking

just to note
the dash arm will not sit that high if the bushing is removed from the arm as I suggested, which means the spacer is also not needed.


----------



## Bill Hall

*Thank You Dan*

"Sadly, I didn't do it for the assembled gear plates, so shoot me."

Naw, lets not. How about we just bury the hatchet and live to wig out another day?

Now that you have clarified, everything we're seeing makes complete sense.

I'll shut the heck up, shuffle to the back of the bus, and sit down.


----------



## Ralphthe3rd

Hey Dan, I dunno if you'll be reading this ? But since we estranged each other on Facebook a while ago, I cannot contact you there, but after viewing your Facebook -Dash Motorsports Page, and reading about your NEW 4 lam 5ohm arm, I'd like to purchase at least one from you, when they become available. I just wanted to put that out there.


----------



## tomhocars

I really need to know this.Who's hosting Thanksgiving the year.Please let me know.I promise I wont bring Bob Beers
Thank You,Tom Stumpf


----------



## TheRockinator

Glad I got to read this thread before it got axed and tossed. I had a post removed because I used the word Ach EE Double toothpicks.

Later The holy WOW Rockinator


----------



## lenny

Ralphthe3rd said:


> Hey Dan, I dunno if you'll be reading this ? But since we estranged each other on Facebook a while ago, I cannot contact you there, but after viewing your Facebook -Dash Motorsports Page, and reading about your NEW 4 lam 5ohm arm, I'd like to purchase at least one from you, when they become available. I just wanted to put that out there.


Ralph, they should be here in early Nov. I'll contact you when they are in. Thank you.


----------



## lenny

If the mods want to ban me, go ahead.i'd ban me too. I asked for them to cancel my account but that hasn't happened yet.


----------



## foxkilo

Sad thatthis tread will end sooner or later. It is something like stand-up comedy in writing. Although certain phrases and hints are only for the initiated or well versed in the peculiarities of the american version of the english language. Anyway I got sore tomy muscles from reading it. Reading certain articles showed attitudes which I hadn't encountered since my kindergarten days and therefore some of the protagonist gave me a reliving of that period of my life for free. Although in all honesty we might have dissed kids like them back then for behaving like a babies. You properly remember those kids you couldn't argue with as they stareted imediatly blaring out one syllable words like "na, na, na" or "bla, bla, bla" or in the worst case covering their ears with their hands while shouting on top of their voices "I can't hear you".
Could start writing now something about professional behaviour or respect or just simply how to behave like a mature person but I think it would take the fun out of it and anyway this is comedy if I'm not mistaken.

What leaves a bit to desire is the fact that the original topic of a seized up/to tight clearences in a number of chassis went somehow down the drain. Or was it just sacrificed for a laugh. But maybe I'm missing somethinghere but we can put that towards me being a foreigner not very well used and accustemed to the subtleties of the english language.

Mario

BTW: one last word. You all should now Dan's temper for ages plus that his choice words lets sometimes something to be desired to say the least. I'm not talking political correctness or that kind of crap, it is something about respect which he doesn't show to customers. But if you don't like his way ignore him and don't buy his products. Because knowing his way and still buying one should stop complaining. It is a take it or leave it situation.


----------



## lenny

foxkilo said:


> Sad thatthis tread will end sooner or later. It is something like stand-up comedy in writing. Although certain phrases and hints are only for the initiated or well versed in the peculiarities of the american version of the english language. Anyway I got sore tomy muscles from reading it. Reading certain articles showed attitudes which I hadn't encountered since my kindergarten days and therefore some of the protagonist gave me a reliving of that period of my life for free. Although in all honesty we might have dissed kids like them back then for behaving like a babies. You properly remember those kids you couldn't argue with as they stareted imediatly blaring out one syllable words like "na, na, na" or "bla, bla, bla" or in the worst case covering their ears with their hands while shouting on top of their voices "I can't hear you".
> Could start writing now something about professional behaviour or respect or just simply how to behave like a mature person but I think it would take the fun out of it and anyway this is comedy if I'm not mistaken.
> 
> What leaves a bit to desire is the fact that the original topic of a seized up/to tight clearences in a number of chassis went somehow down the drain. Or was it just sacrificed for a laugh. But maybe I'm missing somethinghere but we can put that towards me being a foreigner not very well used and accustemed to the subtleties of the english language.
> 
> Mario
> 
> BTW: one last word. You all should now Dan's temper for ages plus that his choice words lets sometimes something to be desired to say the least. I'm not talking political correctness or that kind of crap, it is something about respect which he doesn't show to customers. But if you don't like his way ignore him and don't buy his products. Because knowing his way and still buying one should stop complaining. It is a take it or leave it situation.


Mario,
This is all well and good, and the facts are that I WAS working with Joe to address and fix the issues. By MY recollection our personal communications were cordial until be emailed one of my dealers. Be that as it may, communications to Joe from me became 'testy'.

With that part out of the way, at least for now, lets REALLY look at what happened to this thread in the past few days. I get blasted from Al including some BS that I turned down help from someone he knows. When I challenged him on it, he failed to back up his claim. So there's that. Just because I may have turned down advice from someone he knows doesn't mean I didn't have competent advice. We knew the wire stack would increase height to the armature because of the extra wire. That's why we made .5mm teflon spacers that could be used to 'fine tune' where in the motor box the armature sat, as well as keeping wired from hitting the gear plate. This along with removing the lower bushing gives you a great deal of flexibility. When we shipped loose 2 lam armatures to dealers, we included some of these spacers. I will take the blame if they weren't installed on gear plates because I assemble every gear plate. Early on, many armatures were installed with these spacers. So that's my fault. 

Next, there is Bill Hall who for whatever reason decided to weigh in with what he believed was either correct info regarding our 3 lam armature as far as Dash being unable to sell 15,000 of them(not even close to true, we bought 10,000 and we are sold out), or a complete agenda-driven lie. 

And then he posts a picture of armatures that are disassembled amidst a few piles of wire. The insinuation here is that these are Dash arms. One of the piles was green wire. We have NEVER had a green wire armature. So then, one has to guess as to what his intentions are with THAT post. 

So looking at it from my perspective, Bill wasn't posting as a customer with a problem, he had an agenda. I think the same may be said about Al. Surprisingly Ralph came up with the best comment where he called my post 'informative' when I describe how I arrived at using the arms that I use.

So Mario, as a producer 'of stuff' would you sit back and let a couple guys slam you not from the point of view of a customer but something 'substantially less than'? And if that's true, how would YOU react?


----------



## Grandcheapskate

I think all of us can see posts #111, #115 and #116 are the real heart of this thread and have really brought it to a conclusion. At this point, any more is simply piling on and arguing for no good end. Take the information in those three posts and make your own determination of what you personally would like to do. You now have all the information you need to make an intelligent decision.

It's time to let this thread go as I believe all that can be said has been said.

Joe


----------



## slotking

good shoulder









good shoulder









ok, here is a pic of a t-jet arm and dash arm
all my dash arms are the same.

Not sure why or how an arm can sit that high in a car per the other photos.

also top bushing or not, the windings nor the bushing should should hit the top of the gear plate. if the t-jet arm bushing is hitting the gear plate, then there is friction and heat and slowness.

So it should not matter if the windings ar higher on the dash arm than the bushing, it will still run without touching the gear plate.

even if you place the teflon spacer on, it should not touch the gear plate or you have heat, friction and etc..


----------



## Bubba 123

lenny said:


> Ralph, they should be here in early Nov. I'll contact you when they are in. Thank you.


I bought 2 2-lam (new one's) from 'Drew... don't seem to have ANY "Issues".
"What" am I doing Wrong here ??? :drunk:

on these 5-Lam armatures, are they more powerfull/faster than the 3-lam'rs ???.. I used the 2-lams on Paul's Tucker's & no complaints....
don't want 'em going like "Bats Out of "H"..." anyways....

sorry for the stupid questions, but I got to learn sometime :freak:
TY,
Bubba 123 :wave:


----------



## Bubba 123

slotking said:


> Wow
> Just to note, before I say anything, I am also guilty of the following:
> 
> Some comes out with a product and we have a tendency to complain if it is not perfect.
> 
> I think if we see an issue, it may be worth contacting the vendor and providing suggestions. But like many companies that mold items, the molding is not always perfect. I remember sorting through a case of t-jets because they were all not perfect.
> 
> As far as the dash-jets and arms I have purchased, no issues yet.
> Do I expect to have problems? Yes, I have had issues with t-jets, tycos, p3's, T1, g3, afx, mega-g, and some others.
> 
> So are some of you saying it would better if dan did not make the dash-jet??


sticking my neck-out...
remember, Dan is sort of @ the "Mercy" of the overseas companies that are
making his products.... some folks take pride in doing a GOOD-Job , others just want to get the units "OUT" ASAP....

This is where the headaches come in, unless Dan can hold something over these companies, to "Insure" quality control....

Just like U.S. workers, got Pride & Lazy's .....

"MY" experiences with Dan, have been Great, on Replacing, Fixing OR Refunding...
Nuff said... :drunk:

Bubba 123 :wave:
however, I think this Only happened once :thumbsup:

I've only read this thread, any of it, just now....
I would like to offer my Deepest Sympathy, to the loss of your family member :-(
Sincerely,
Pete


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## foxkilo

Thanks Dan for your info. I definitly do not know how would have reacted as only part of the picture is visible to me as I only see whats happening in this very forum. I don't know the email traffic between the parties nor do I have any clue about threads in forums or personal conversations. Therefore I only see whats happening here. But that was to a certain degree a joke although a not very funny one. To see otherwise sound persons, a make an assumption here that these reputable and clear of mind, through punches at each other even below kindergarden level. 

I admit that not everybodies fuse is as long as it should be me included. The older the more impatient I get. But I think the whole think went out of proportion especially as it centers a round a common cause. One or two of us should calm down and maybe take a german proverb to heart which roughly translates like: 'What does it bother a german/american oak if a pig rubs itself at it' (sorry, but tried my best to translate it without losing any meaning).

But regardless of what happened in the tread, I think I can speak for many if not the most of us and thank you for your effort and endurance to keep the hobby alive by providing us with new stuff.

Mario


----------



## Ralphthe3rd

*How MANY Lams !?*

Bubba, Dan's forth coming Armatures will be "4" Lam- 5 ohm ! They will probably be very similar in performance to the Factory Aurora A/FX Super II Quadralam ! (but better balanced?)


Bubba 123 said:


> <snip>
> 
> *on these 5-Lam armatures, are they more powerfull/faster than the 3-lam'rs ???.. *<snip>
> 
> sorry for the stupid questions, but I got to learn sometime :freak:
> TY,
> Bubba 123 :wave:


----------



## Bubba 123

Ralphthe3rd said:


> Bubba, Dan's forth coming Armatures will be "4" Lam- 5 ohm ! They will probably be very similar in performance to the Factory Aurora A/FX Super II Quadralam ! (but better balanced?)


TY, R-3 :thumbsup:
Bubba 123 :wave:


----------



## slotking

sounds interesting
more torque and brake as well as a lot more top end I would think

I think the drag racers may be happy.


----------



## alpink

lenny said:


> I get blasted from Al including some BS that I turned down help from someone he knows. When I challenged him on it, he failed to back up his claim. So there's that. Just because I may have turned down advice from someone he knows doesn't mean I didn't have competent advice.


I didn't see the point of bringing another innocent victim imto this debacle.
I am sure the armature artist in question is well aware of these posts, including the editted versions.
I don't feel comfortable posting someone's name or Hobby Talk ID just to satisfy a bully.
further more only one person in this entire thread has typed foul language and outright insulted members.
that says all there is to say.

.


----------



## lenny

alpink said:


> I didn't see the point of bringing another innocent victim imto this debacle.
> I am sure the armature artist in question is well aware of these posts, including the editted versions.
> I don't feel comfortable posting someone's name or Hobby Talk ID just to satisfy a bully.
> 
> 
> .


innocent victim? Oh brother..... you really have no idea what you're talking about. Whether I had help from 'your dude' or not, what difference does it make. WHO CARES? 

The only one who seems to care whether I listened to one specific person or not, is you! I outlined exactly the reasons for why I went with this company. Previous to that and even during developing the current arms, I had all sorts of qualified help. And many qualified people helping test along the way.

Al, why didn't you report any issues or concerns with this arm prior to Joes initial post? If you did and I missed it, please direct me to your reviews where you had issues with these arms. You NEVER miss a chance to bash a product and voice your opiinion. Where was your outrage back in August of last year? Dare I call you an opportunistic hypocrite, who piles on just to try to show how 'smart' and in the know he is, after the fact? IIf I recall correctly, I believe your initial reviews were anything but negative. Why change your stance? 

Enough already.......... Im tired of having my products and efforts being misrepresented by someone like you. as for bully, look in the mirror. you're every bit as bad.


----------



## Bill Hall

*Yo, Crayola!*











Benchmark: The standard by which all others are measured.

You installed this armature and sent it to a customer! Not Joe! Not Al! Not me!

*Enough with the childish diversionary tactics and take it like a man you big baby!* 

I actually measured yer current offerings Dan, instead of quoting some run out, blow hard, gobstopper talk; and relying on what they measured at NASA two years ago. The windings are high and sloppy, the upper bushing is occluded by the windings and rendered non functional in my examples; so that the unprotected windings were grinding the lid. The end. VERY simple!

Do you even own a Mic? Calipers? Snap gauges? Feeler gauges? Machinists rule? Dividers? ..... Crayons?

With the top bushing at .198" and a total bundle height of .200" both measured from from the comm plate, even my 8 year old granddaughter knows the 2 Lam windings as sampled were .002" over the land. Include the comm spring and brush pre load, and whats the answer? I got mine in a matter of minutes. TOAST!

Not everyone is as dumb as you think they are Dan, mechanics and machinists know you dont just go flip flopping a .200" spacer when it's been benchmarked; unless you got it upside down. It's called physics and we dont get to have it both ways. At .200", you do realize that we're in the Tonka Toy realm with respect to accuracy? You might wanna check the definition and rethink throwing that term around. We have a lot of tradesman in the hobby, and it's really kind of embarrassing to watch you keep stroking that bull for milk.

If it was benchmarked, why did it need an immediate retrofit? It was so perfect, that your journeymen had to gnaw the .200" spacer from the bottom with pliers and you still had to source a top shim after the fact to get the spacing right. So after ALL that, it's now an official manufacturers retrofitted super duper T-Dash bench mark. Then how come people are still experiencing "critical" problems? It's been three months and you still have not provided one single shred of information to explain why. People who actually know and understand the craft are LAUGHING. 

The answer is in the field, where you left it, and all the qualified troubleshooters knew that instinctively. After three months of waiting for you to get off your schneide; we had the impertinence to conduct a randomly sampled, independent field inspection. Thats what real manufacturers do. You of course were not consulted or invited because your high centered on name dropping from the past, and your mind is not open or receptive to any relevant real time input. Yer the only life form on the planet that doesnt realize what a plebian leap of faith you are making.

Last time I checked, I was the grizzled and grumpy, antagonistic, greasy shop rat who has actually worked in an electric motor/machine shop and your just an impatient, ill tempered, foul mouthed, plastic toymaker. My armature pinions were on upside down. The relief goes down on an "officially benchmarked" installation. I put them back on correctly after ensuring that you had in fact forgotten to install the upper spacers on my "quality assured" product; so that I could test and document Joe's hypothesis of why they're fuzzing out in the here and the NOW!. We're really gonna have to see some credentials. Just because you say so hasnt been working very well for you of late. Did you file for your apprentice card yet, because most of those parts are a dangerous choking hazard?

Ya see Dan, it's YOUR craftsmanship thats bound, bird nested, and burning in the market. Given the photo documented evidence in this thread; it's little gol darned wonder some of your careless handiwork work is crapping out in the field. What difference would true benchmarking make when you're shown red handed to be either lacking or hacking the craft? I suspect both. See above. 

After vehemently denying the above examples existed for weeks, you still havent explained how this bench marked armature got through your "thorough bench test" and made it to Joe's house? Al's house? my house? It's gut wrenchingly embarrassing to watch you make a buffoon out of yourself. You need to seriously re-evaluate your haphazard bench test process, before you EVER impugn the credibility or abilities of anyone. See above.

Sadly, although you have been given every opportunity, you have not contributed one iota of truly useful or helpful information regarding the original thread topic. In fact you have intentionally done quite the opposite, by withholding information, being less than forthcoming; and yet again interrupting the free exchange of information, be it for better or worse. 

You bet I had an agenda:

1. Primarily, to exonerate Joe, who you shamefully abused harangued and humiliated. He was more than kind to you, and he was right all along. 

2.. To finally properly compare your offerings with the real and true benchmark. So that people may actually see things in the light of day.

3. To answer why the retrofit is necessary in the first place, which you have yet to disclose. 

4. To illustrate that you still refuse to be forthcoming, and prove that all the questions asked could be answered very easily.

Your position is that because I dont buy Dash products, I have no right to an opinion. No sir, I just dont buy them from you. I buy what I like or need from quality vendors who treat their customers with MUTUAL courtesy and respect. The fatal flaw in your ....er....uh....logic, is because you cant conceive of another way, that you must always be right. 

Point made!


----------



## lenny

Bill Hall said:


> Bill Hall


Derp....


----------



## lenny

Bill Hall said:


> Do you even own a Mic? Calipers? Snap gauges? Feeler gauges? Machinists rule? Dividers? ..... Crayons?
> 
> With the top bushing at .198" and a total bundle height of .200" both measured from from the comm plate, even my 8 year old granddaughter knows the 2 Lam windings as sampled were .002" over the land. Include the comm spring and brush pre load, and whats the answer? I got mine in a matter of minutes. TOAST!
> 
> after you had your cars for HOW LONG and never expressed an issue?
> 
> 
> Bill Hall said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not everyone is as dumb as you think they are Dan,
> 
> 
> 
> Read my statement above, apparently you are
> 
> 
> 
> Bill Hall said:
> 
> 
> 
> If it was benchmarked, why did it need an immediate retrofit? It was so perfect, that your journeymen had to gnaw the .200" spacer from the bottom with pliers and you still had to source a top shim after the fact to get the spacing right.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Dear Billie, on an Aurora arm you DO realize that brush tension will cause the 'shoulder to be pushed into the gearplate, right? No? figures... I'd rather have a teflon spacer between the arm and the plate instead of steel, but apparently that's just me. And if 2 are required for proper clearance, oh well. One of the problems with this whole configuration is that the armature is not in a fixed spot. It floats. So the spacing can be and is dynamic. But you knew that too. No? figures again. So the inclusion of spacers is meant to fine tune that 'space' for personal preference and clearance as needed since not all armatures are wound exactly alike. The only one laughing right now is me, and it's at you for your naivete at thinking that the armature doesn't float up and down causing biding problems with the UPPER bushing, or in the case of the Aurora armature, the shoulder.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bill Hall said:
> 
> 
> 
> So after ALL that, it's now an official manufacturers retrofitted super duper T-Dash bench mark. Then how come people are still experiencing "critical" problems? It's been three months and you still have not provided one single shred of information to explain why. People who actually know and understand the craft are LAUGHING.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Because the ONLY person who has come forward is Joe. So who are these other 'people' experiencing "critical" problems? If one of them is you, I offered you a replacement or refund and you proceeding to show me piles of wire that didn't come from one of our arms.
> 
> 
> 
> Bill Hall said:
> 
> 
> 
> The answer is in the field, where you left it, and all the qualified troubleshooters knew that instinctively.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Riiiiggghhhtttttt. these arms have been out for a year. Joe posted his concerns a few months ago. So where were all these 'qualified troubleshooters' in the interim? Waiting for Joe to unbox his chassis?
> 
> 
> 
> Bill Hall said:
> 
> 
> 
> After three months of waiting for you to get off your schneide; we had the impertinence to conduct a randomly sampled, independent field inspection.
> 
> 
> Thats what real manufacturers do.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Oh, now *you're *a REAL manufacturer. Volkswagen is a real manufacturer too. Just sayin. Hope you don't have one of their benchmarked diesels... So is GM, guess they benchmarked their ignition switch real well... Bill, you couldn't find your butt with both hands. you're a joke. and a liar
Click to expand...


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## alpink

*stance*



lenny said:


> innocent victim? Oh brother..... you really have no idea what you're talking about. Whether I had help from 'your dude' or not, what difference does it make. WHO CARES?
> 
> The only one who seems to care whether I listened to one specific person or not, is you! I outlined exactly the reasons for why I went with this company. Previous to that and even during developing the current arms, I had all sorts of qualified help. And many qualified people helping test along the way.
> 
> Al, why didn't you report any issues or concerns with this arm prior to Joes initial post? If you did and I missed it, please direct me to your reviews where you had issues with these arms. You NEVER miss a chance to bash a product and voice your opiinion. Where was your outrage back in August of last year? Dare I call you an opportunistic hypocrite, who piles on just to try to show how 'smart' and in the know he is, after the fact? IIf I recall correctly, I believe your initial reviews were anything but negative. Why change your stance?
> 
> Enough already.......... Im tired of having my products and efforts being misrepresented by someone like you. as for bully, look in the mirror. you're every bit as bad.


still have all the DASH products that I bought and haven't had any problems with them
my concern is for individuals that don't have the luxuries that I do and might get something that doesn't work up to their expectations.
having read Joe's concerns and discussed this with some folks, it would seem that there "is NO joy in Mudville"!
even my recent reviews have been positive. but that doesn't change facts about some products that others have and cannot use.
my point, specifically, is RESPONSIBILITY!

I do not find a need to edit my posts as I stand behind my WORD.
and my actions carry much more weight than my WORD!

actions always tell a more complete story than WORDS.

when I offer a refund, I refund. no questions asked.

have read much about offered refunds and nothing about actual refunds.

and, I have bought all of my DASH products from one source, a very well respected person that I am glad I have had the opportunity to make acquaintance.
in fact, I consider him a friend.

I applaud all your efforts Dan. you have brought a product back to viability that was thought to be lost.
there are minor issues which you continue to deny.

if my trying to stand up for those who don't have the courage or ability to stand up for themselves is bullying, then that is what I am.
in many circles it is called something else entirely.

personally, I wish you all the success you deserve


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## slotking

Please stop.

there is no point in rehashing what was already said.

ok, so some of you do not like each other, that is life.

Lets move on PLEASE


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## vickers83

Well said Slotking! Maybe we can stop :beatdeadhorse:


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## sethndaddy

I still want a slimline


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## Jisp

lenny said:


> .... Sorry, but in your haste to further discredit my products, and me, you pictured a pile of green wire. There has never been a dash arm with green wire. So Agenda Boy, why did you do that?......


Dan I think the green wired arm was an Aurora “Christmas Tree” arm being used for comparison. I also think you know this so I’m not sure why there is so much noise about it. It’s as clear as day to me. See here.

Another Aurora arm was used for comparison here. Study the pic, learn the difference and stop playing silly games.[/QUOTE]





lenny said:


> ....So who are these other 'people' experiencing "critical" problems?....


They say that truth is stranger than fiction.
They say never let truth get in the way of a fine tale.
They say rub a dub-dub, three men in a tub.
But what does it all mean..... it means shove over and make room for me!

I have no intention of thrashing this out with you but I want to dispense your myth that bad arms aren’t getting around. There are several possible reasons why people aren’t posting about them here..... flame being the most likely deterrent. Besides, the slot world doesn’t start & stop here.

Curiosity about the 2-lam jobbie got the better of me and so I recently purchased a couple from one of your stockists. One of the two purchased is a dud, see below. Yes, I know I can send it to you and I know you will refund me but I live on the other side of the planet and it aint worth the trouble or expense for a six buck arm. It is however worth stating that these arms are in the wild and it’s possibly a game of lucky dip with a purchase. So.... how best to use this arm? I think I’ll look into having it cast in a clear resin paper weight and send it to Joe for Christmas, as a token of my admiration for him. Actually, can I order a second dud please.... would like to send one to William also.

Michael.

Note the winding rising up and across the upper surface of the top bushing and the winding looped around the lam end on the far right.











Note loose windings on the right











Note loose windings, in particular on the right.


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## Ralphthe3rd

I just wanna 4 Lam- 5 ohm ARM !....Screw the Two Lams, that is sooo yesterday


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## alpink

nice Bob Hardin art.
shades of Galinko


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## Tuxedo

Ralphthe3rd said:


> I just wanna 4 Lam- 5 ohm ARM !....Screw the Two Lams, that is sooo yesterday


Where can I meet that chick??


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## Dyno Dom

Gee Tex, I just noticed her. I must have been focusing on the poor guy that blew up back at the tree.


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## Dyno Dom

Al, Bob's art is great, like many others my slot room has some too!


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## Tuxedo

Dyno Dom said:


> Gee Tex, I just noticed her. I must have been focusing on the poor guy that blew up back at the tree.


LOL, YEAH as soon as I saw (.)(.) bouncing I completely lost focus!

BTW, I really hate your slot room ! Pack it up and mail it here until you can improve your slot cave, Just kidding that is sure awesome.


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## lenny

Dyno Dom said:


> Al, Bob's art is great, like many others my slot room has some too!


nice track


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## slotking

yes 
nice track, but why do so many people ruin them turns!
Only banked turns let me stay on!!:hat:

Just kidding

Look like a lot of fun


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## Dyno Dom

Thanks guys, our Fracas class of AW/JL T-Jets had a lap track record of 7.86 by
Dyno of Ct. The current record holder by Gear Head is 7.58. Our updated rules 
will be including Dash 3 lam chassis. The little pancakes like to stretch their legs
on this fast track and could get very interesting with an upcoming Dash 4 lam. :thumbsup:


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## lenny

Jisp said:


> One of the two purchased is a dud,


So if you gently remove the wire from the top of the bushing so it doesn't get pinched between the bushing and gearplate, isn't something that you cant do, don't want to do, or shouldn't have to do? and if you DID remove the wire that seems to be looped on top of the bushing, does that take away from the performance of the arm, or is it a dud that just won't work? And what exactly qualifies as a 'loose winding'? One strand of wire not laid down perfectly on top of another? and is this one winding truly 'loose' and is a performance detriment? I am asking legit questions here because aside from the apparent wire over the top of the bushing (which is a new one for me) which can easily be slid off the bushing, I want to ascertain exactly what qualifies as a 'dud' in various peoples minds.



Jisp said:


> Another Aurora arm was used for comparison here. Study the pic, learn the difference and stop playing silly games


I guess you told me....


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## slotking

just to note:

When I run into t-jets arms with issues like loose wire, I just use super glue to keep the wire in place.


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## alpink

slotking said:


> Please stop.
> 
> there is no point in rehashing what was already said.
> 
> ok, so some of you do not like each other, that is life.
> 
> Lets move on PLEASE





slotking said:


> just to note:
> 
> When I run into t-jets arms with issues like loose wire, I just use super glue to keep the wire in place.


????????


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## slotking

I am not rehashing complaints

But I did give a suggestion for lose pancake arm wire


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## Boosted-Z71

Clear Nail polish works too, you can also use it to balance as well.

I always get funny looks from the cashier at the dollar store buying the nail polish, but at least it is clear

Boosted


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## Paul R

Using glue or nail polish to hold down winding is a great idea. If you plan to race, check the rules. If they state the arm or windings must be unmodified, you'll need to find another arm


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## Bill Hall

Reeeeeally Dan? "Dynamic Spacing"?

Uhhhhhhh......yeah. You should probably find someone else's homework to copy from and not return serve with this 4th grade terminology from the Chronicles of Narnia. If your spacing is truly dynamic it's called SLOP. Call me whatever you like Dan. It's a small price to pay to . Everyone is really enjoying that your finally providing some interesting, if not illuminating reading.


*****



... after you had your cars for HOW LONG and never expressed an issue?



_Why do you want to know? Is there shelf life for your products? How is this even relevant? Is immediately too soon or too late? If memory serves it was both

Your spacer juju was merely the tattle tale for the condition. Considering your "go to move" was abandoning a .040" chunk off the bottom of a time tested application; and then pointing your finger the other way, I knew intuitively that there was fertilizer in the mist. _

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDAmPIq29ro



****













Dear Billie, on an Aurora arm you DO realize that brush tension will cause the 'shoulder to be pushed into the gearplate, right? No? figures...

_It's called "preload" Homer, not "THAT TENSION WHICH PUSHES THE SHOULDER INTO THE GEAR PLATE" lmao! In particular, of the static, commutator variety. AKA "comm preload". Read back in my posts to see proper usage in context. It's due to the peculiar perpendicular arrangement of a commutator as it relates to the stack. Put it on your spelling and vocabulary list; then draw me a little picture with your favorite red crayon, after you pull it outta yer nose. _


*****













I'd rather have a teflon spacer between the arm and the plate instead of steel, but apparently that's just me. And if 2 are required for proper clearance, oh well.

_Then perhaps you should tell us why you dont put them on your 3 Lam installations ? Has the 3 Lam been naughty? As the 2 Lam and 3 Lam use the same location and material for the first lamination and upper bushing; and the 3 lam doesnt rub the gearplate, please elaborate on why the 2 Lam requires a spacer made from Magic Unicorn droppings but the three Lam doesnt, or do you just use Pixie dust for the 3 Lam?. _


******












One of the problems with this whole configuration is that the armature is not in a fixed spot. It floats. So the spacing can be and is dynamic. But you knew that too. No? figures again. So the inclusion of spacers is meant to fine tune that 'space' for personal preference and clearance as needed since not all armatures are wound exactly alike.

_ It's "fixed running clearance", not FIXED SPOT "AMATEUR" FLOAT, lmao! OMG! Yer killing me, hahahahahaha! Running clearance only becomes "dynamic" when the clearance is shot out of tolerance. The only reason you would have to" fine tune" the fixed running clearance is because it was never set correctly in the first place. If your 2 Lam stack was in the optimum location, you wouldnt have had to RE-SPACE anything; because the factory set bushings would function correctly just like the 3 Lam, and any reasonable 2 Lam winding variation would have been easily compensated for.

The problem with WHOLE configuration IS the configuration. Can you tell us why the designers just re-used the one size fits all keeper, left the ferrous mass unusually high, AND thus left a blimp hangers worth of much needed clearance trapped between the comm and the wind; when it was found that extra top spacing is mandatory with a vintage 16 ohm wind? Why wasnt this caught at the factory? 

Electric motors use bearings or bushings to fix the shaft spacing in their housings, not the "Magic of Dynamic Spacing imported from Rainbow Brite Land". The responses of the comm brush system is what is dynamic. The only reason that YOUR armature spacing became "dynamically spaced" is because you have intentionally pulled a needed bottom spacer in order to back shim the vertical index of your supposedly benchmarked armature. _


******


The only one laughing right now is me, and it's at you for your naivete at thinking that the armature doesn't float up and down causing biding problems with the UPPER bushing, or in the case of the Aurora armature, the shoulder.



_Yo Bullwinkle! AKA: "Torque thrust". Not "FLOAT UP AND DOWN CAUSE" lmao! It just doesnt get better than this! Also for your vocab list. Something that actually is dynamic within the fixed running clearance; as the armature responds to throttle inputs. It doesnt float. On throttle the arm is up, off throttle the arm is down. 

Are there binding problems or torque thrust problems with the 3 Lam? NO! No retrofit is required.

As the 2 Lam and 3 Lam use the same height blank, and you dont remove the bottom spacer on the 3 Lam or add an upper shim; please tell us what the significant feature is that creates enough difference between your two armatures so that the 2 Lam requires you to invert the spacing?

I know the viewership would like to know exactly how Dash Motor Sports created Dynamic Spacing Immunity, lmao, for the 3 Lam, but not the 2 Lam, and why in particular the 3 Lam doesnt need any "FINE TUNING".

As you advocate removing the bottom stop on the two Lam, can you please tell us what component(s) now establish the fixed running clearance and what the side effect of that condition is called ? _


Last time I checked, you're still a liar. And a bad one at that. Armature pinions were installed upside down??? Dude, there is no 'relief' on the pinion. They were made completely flat. If there WAS a relief it was a function of pressing the gear onto the shaft, creating a small 'deformity', like you. Still, they were made flat, and are flat. Like your argument. So if you flipped them around, you wasted your time. Another day, another lie, same Billie Goat...

_No Dan, Nice try. There really is a difference. The old guys are laughing again. When ever possible, and whatever the cause, an experienced builder ALWAYS flips the gear over and uses the champfer as an oil relief, if it has one. Yet another word for your vocab list. Better quit wildly tilting at windmills or you'll have your beans zipped over your frank yet again. If you are indeed galling that champfer onto your gears it just means you didnt buy the RTHO press as was recommended. 










It's the stuff you're supposed know as a journeyman T-jet builder, AKA ancient T-jet knowledge that you just dont know. It involves actually looking at what your doing. Just because you've done it 10,000 times doesnt mean it's right. It really wasnt a waste of my time at all. Twofold in nature, it verified that you "spaced out" on the spacers and thus confirmed my suspicions that your certified bench test proclamation is just "dynamically spaced" malarkey.

Your going to have to do a whole lot better than, "I think teflon spacers are groovy, and BTW, you'll have to pull the bottom spacer, but dontcha dare ask why!"_


_Lets add up your score for the written portion of your electric motor apprentice test. Below is the family rated version of your latest thesis:

THAT TENSION WHICH PUSHES THE SHOULDER INTO THE GEAR PLATE - FLOAT UP AND DOWN CAUSE - FIXED SPOT "AMATEUR" FLOAT.

You mean THAT FLOAT UP AND DOWN TENSION CAUSE WHICH PUSHES THE FIXED SPOT AMATEUR FLOAT INTO THE GEAR PLATE ?

Seriously dude? You need to climb back on your hoppity hop and catch the first Dynamically Spaced Rainbow back to the Bunnyfarm...because you aint gonna get back to Rainbow Brite Land on one of these.











PS: You might want to photoshop that hanging chad out of your Quad picture on face plant. LMAO!

... and you missed the obviously irretrievably snared loop on the Lam tip of Michaels armature. Fail!_


----------



## slotking

really?
so no one is able to stop?


----------



## Dslot

slotking said:


> really?
> so no one is able to stop?


I have. 
Halfway through the last one, I just quit reading.

Sorry, Bill; sorry, Dan. Whatever the technical virtues of your respective cases, name-calling and sarcasm won't convince your opponent, and by now all the readers have pretty much made their decision on how much of what to believe. It's mostly just sport-fighting and target-fixation now. 










Anything further gets a penalty for 










-- D


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## slotking

:lol::lol::lol:

pretty funny stuff about :beatdeadhorse::beatdeadhorse:


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## lenny

SMH.... :beatdeadhorse::beatdeadhorse::beatdeadhorse:


----------



## lenny

bill hall said:


> .....


derp...


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## Shadowracer

Holy shite....just discovered this thread. Apparently the moderators have left the building....and left the door unlocked. 

Maybe Deane should come back. Make it a party.


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## Dslot




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## Dslot




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## wyatt641

Dslot said:


>


wow..as usual..i showed up late..missed the action...darn..:wave:


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## fordcowboy

This has gone on long enough. Time to stop. -FCB


----------

