# An open letter to Round 2/Tom Lowe



## Tiberious (Nov 20, 2001)

Dear Round Two Models,

We, the Star Trek loving hobbiests request that you produce the long-awaited 1/350 classic U.S.S. Enterprise model from the original Star Trek television Series.

In the interim, we also respectfully request information as to the status of this project and its progress if applicable.

We also request that, if you do not plan to produce this kit, that you release the license for other interested companies (such as Mobius Models) to produce, perhaps as a joint venture.

The courtesy of a response is appreciated,

With all due respect,

Tiberious* 
*Note, this request is not sanctioned by the Hobby Talk staff, advertisers, or owners and is intended as stated, an open letter.


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## Paulbo (Sep 16, 2004)

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?p=3534525#post3534525


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## Tiberious (Nov 20, 2001)

*content deleted*


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## RSN (Jul 29, 2008)

I think that is ALL that needs to be said about the matter!


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## Steve H (Feb 8, 2009)

I don't... why this? It's something that's been explained time and again, R2 wants to do the kit but it's just not reasonable to make it in the current environment. I know there's one line of thought that's "if not now, when, because the future is always unclear and there's zero indication it's going to get better" and I understand the frustration. 

I want the kit too. I might never BUILD the thing but I want it. But I can wait. And maybe they have the time to work out those troublesome engineering issues that seem to always plague the NCC-1701, like the huge stress imposed on the engineering hull by the pair of MASSIVE hunks of plastic called 'warp nacelles', and the twisting thereof on the pylons. It would be nice to build it without discovering you need an aftermarket metal skeleton, ya know?

R2 knows we want this kit. I actually have faith that they WILL put it into production when the proper stars align.


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## James Tiberius (Oct 23, 2007)

yeah, i started a thread that asked about future kits, Phantom responded. Minewas a question, not a petition. I want the kit too, thats a reason I created the thread, he says maybe late 2011, good enough for mee.


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## Tiberious (Nov 20, 2001)

Steve, my intention wasn't a demand nor was it necessarily a petition, that's up to others here to decide. It was, as I stated in the post, an open letter. He can respond to it or not. It isn't about forcing them to move now, simply what are the companies intention toward the project. A recommendation of resources that could be made avaialble to share the costs, risks, and rewards. 

It's not about whether or not I personally want it....I do, but I also own the Master Replicas Enterprise so I have a 1/350 TOS Enterprise that looks pretty darn good, so I don't NEED one.

Essentially I took the anger and frustration of the other thread (you know people are upset when they jump on your spelling) packaged it into a (what I hope is) respectful letter that offers some insights I gleaned from the fan community.

It wasn't about what's been done before, James (or Paulbo), it was starting fresh with the kind of letter that I would respond to were I sitting behind the president's desk.

If the consensus here is that it's a waste of time, I'll delete it and move on, no skin off my nose.

Tib


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## Tiberious (Nov 20, 2001)

Moderator, please delete this thread. I shouldn't have bothered.

Thank you.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Well, they know we want it. We've certainly mentioned it enough. THEY want to do it. They're just waiting, apparently, for the financial environment to be able to do it and not go out of business. And we shouldn't be bugging them too much, lest we piss them off with the "are we there yet" syndrome.


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## Kit (Jul 9, 2009)

How do we know that they're waiting for better economic times, and it's not other considerations? I don't believe we should make that assumption. They haven't said that's a consideration -- correct me if I'm wrong -- and they're not being battered by the recession if sales have been strong, as Phantom said.


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## jbond (Aug 29, 2002)

It's been stated that the tooling would be incredibly expensive and that it is a gamble to do a kit that costs this much to the company and to the consumer in the current economic environment, yes.
Just to hit yet another controversial example, compare this to Avatar. A lot of the things people hated about that movie were in it precisely because a movie that costs $300 million to make MUST appeal to the broadest possible audience in order to recover its costs. So I'm sure Round 2 is doing the calculus on whether this enormous investment is going to make them or lose them money. That's a question only THEY can answer because only they know all the details about their business operation, its costs and capabilities.


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

I think that it is important to let Round 2 know that their product that is in development is in demand, despite the current economic times - that it will sell so that they can get a return on their investment.

What I understand to be the problem to be is that Round 2 is afraid that if they risk sinking the money into producing the large molds necessary to produce this kit, and, once released, the models sit on store shelves because no one can afford to buy them, that they may lose their "corporate shirt" and put the company in danger of financial ruin.

I think what is important for us to do, is to continue to communicate our desire to Round 2 for the kit, and our intention to purchase the kits once released. Be passionate, be sincere, and (most of all) be polite when expressing your desire. Write letters (remember those?), send emails and post messages in their blog. In eleven months since the original blog post announcing the kit on November 30, 2009, there have only been about twenty postings in response, and more than one is from me. That's a pretty paltry sum, considering how many of us are out there that would snatch these kits up immediately upon release.

What they need to present to their board of directors, is enough evidence to back their desire to produce the kit. That once out on the market, that it will immediately be profitable enough to cover the expense of production.

So, boys and girls, get busy and communicate your passions to them so they can rest assured that they will not be putting the company at risk by investing in the kit's production. The more letters and emails that they get in favor of the kit, the more ammunition they have to present to their board of directors, and the better our chances of getting it. If you think that letter-writing campaigns don't work, just look back to 1968 and the organized letter-writing efforts of some passionate fans to successfully convince NBC to renew a certain show for a third season. They didn't even have the internet back then.

Here is a direct link to the original blog posting for the 1/350 TOS _Enterprise_ from November 30, 2009 with comments:

http://www.collectormodel.com/round2-models/489-star-trek-model-kits-boldly-going…/#comments

Here is the contact information for Round 2 models:

http://www.round2models.com/contact


Remember, _all_ manufacturers want customers to buy their goods. That's what their in business _for_. To do this successfully, they need to know that their products _are_ in demand in order to make a profit. Don't be bashful in letting them know that you want their product, and it _will_ be profitable to them, if they take the risk.


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## Kit (Jul 9, 2009)

jbond said:


> It's been stated that the tooling would be incredibly expensive and that it is a gamble to do a kit that costs this much to the company and to the consumer in the current economic environment, yes.
> 
> 
> > You're helping me make my point. No doubt it's expensive, and Round 2 has said it's a big investment, so big that it would be the only release that year. But I don't believe they've ever said the bad economy is a factor in the decision. I think we're raising false hopes with that assumption, that the recovery will gain steam and it will be done.
> ...


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## Kit (Jul 9, 2009)

Oh, yeah, for Trek Ace: I believe you're right on the money, except that we need to remember how small a company this is we're talking about. I don't think there's any board of directors at all. I think it's Tom and a CFO, pretty much.

I'd be surprised if there are more employees of Round 2 there than there were at Polar Lights, which had 40 people working for it in its heyday.


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## Steve H (Feb 8, 2009)

TAce, you're kind of putting the cart before the horse.

Yes, consumer interest matters, we're the 'end user' as they say, so what we're willing to spend matters.

But just as iimportant, and this is CRITICAL, are RETAILERS willing to buy? The store has to stock it for you to buy it. 

Money is tight. Open-to-buy money is tight. And, I really don't mean any disrespect, honest, you're not going to buy at at the local hobby shop at full MSRP, are you? Kit this expensive, I suspect you'll shop the usual suspects, look for who has the best pre-order discount + shipping. And that's reasonable, your money is tight too.

But, that's one kit your LHS isn't going to order from his distro. 

Few local shops ordering means the distributor orders fewer kits. Might even completely pass on it if THEY feel they won't make any money on it. And that goes up the chain. 

And if R2 only gets orders for 1000 kits and they HAVE to sell 5000 to cover tooling costs, and it just doesn't look like there's going to be ANY re-order activity... 

Now do you see? It's not enough for US to say we want it, even if we put our money where our mouth is by pre-paying direct to R2. I mean, if I HAD $100 I'd surely throw it their way.

OTOH, buying the HELL out of their reissues helps, and that frees up capital and shows RETAILERS the vibrant cult of Trek Modelbuilding. 

Know what I would like? A new tool Enterprise in the 'classic AMT' size, but accurate. Fix all the mistakes. I like the size but in my modern, tired, worn out life I just can't struggle to make the old kit 'right' anymore. Maybe I'm lazy. 

Hey, they made a new TV Batmobile, so why not?


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## irishtrek (Sep 17, 2005)

But considering that R2 is a fairly small company do they even have a board of directors???


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## Tiberious (Nov 20, 2001)

He was making a point, the board of directors is irrelevant, it refers to whomever is in the driver's seat (no, they don't actually have a driver's seat) of the company in terms of financial and product decisions.

Really, do we have to nitpick this to death?

Tib


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## spindrift (Apr 16, 2005)

getting tired of this subject myself...isn't happening. Just deal with it, I have- as much as I craved this kit. What a glorious kit it would be, I know R2 would have given it justice had they produced it.
Howerver, why does Moebius continue to pour out BIG and small new tool kits??? My argument is they do this DESPITE NOT having the mother load of all franchises , Star Trek!!
Gary


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## Tiberious (Nov 20, 2001)

It's possible that the Trek license (at least at the time of procurement) simply sapped all the development money out of R2 I suppose, but that's just speculation.


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## derric1968 (Jun 13, 2003)

Kit said:


> -- correct me if I'm wrong --


Well, actually, Jaime (Phantom Stranger) did say *THIS*.

So, even if Round 2 is doing fine in terms of current sales, they would still need to borrow money from the bank in order to cover the tooling costs, and the banks are being very stingy these days. Whether directly, or indirectly, the economy has had an impact on their plans. Since the recession had a negative impact on their plans, it only stands to reason that an economic recovery would have a positive impact on their plans.

Personally, my gut instinct says that later in the year, assuming the economy continues to recover, this kit will get the green light, and will be the only new Trek kit for 2011 (besides the nuEnterprise, of course). My fear is that once the 350-E is delivered, the cycle will begin anew, only next time it will be about the 1/350 Klingon Cruiser.


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## derric1968 (Jun 13, 2003)

spindrift said:


> getting tired of this subject myself...
> Howerver, why does Moebius continue to pour out BIG and small new tool kits???


Personally, I'm getting tired of the Moebius vs. Round 2 retort. We don't have all the fiscal details behind these two businesses. As long as we don't have those details, making direct comparisons is unfair. It's entirely possible that if we opened up all their books, and did a thorough audit, it would become clear why Moebius releases more new kits than Round 2. 

However, as is true with most businesses, there are aspects of their operations and finances that both Round 2 and Moebius wish to keep private, and it's their right to keep those things private. I think Jaime has been as forthcoming as he can be. Actually, more forthcoming than many in his position would be.


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## derric1968 (Jun 13, 2003)

Tiberious said:


> It's possible that the Trek license (at least at the time of procurement) simply sapped all the development money out of R2 I suppose, but that's just speculation.


Possibly. Licensing isn't cheap, especially the Trek license. And don't forget to add to that the cost to Tom Lowe to buy his company back from RC2.


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## Kit (Jul 9, 2009)

derric1968 said:


> Well, actually, Jaime (Phantom Stranger) did say *THIS*.
> 
> So, even if Round 2 is doing fine in terms of current sales, they would still need to borrow money from the bank in order to cover the tooling costs, and the banks are being very stingy these days. Whether directly, or indirectly, the economy has had an impact on their plans. Since the recession had a negative impact on their plans, it only stands to reason that an economic recovery would have a positive impact on their plans.
> 
> Personally, my gut instinct says that later in the year, assuming the economy continues to recover, this kit will get the green light, and will be the only new Trek kit for 2011 (besides the nuEnterprise, of course). My fear is that once the 350-E is delivered, the cycle will begin anew, only next time it will be about the 1/350 Klingon Cruiser.


Now that makes sense.


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## mach7 (Mar 25, 2002)

Just a few things. 

These are just my opinions and thoughts.

The 1/350 Enterprise would probably retail for at least $150. At that price how many will you buy? How many will hobby stores stock? Will any large chain stores carry them? (they will take up a lot of shelf space) How much will shipping cost? (A lot fewer on a pallet). 

There is much going against this kit. I can't find the post now, I suspect it was edited out, but over at the Moebius board one of the 2 big guys at moebius said that the J2 was not profitable yet. 

I would buy this kit as would most of us here, but I would guess that they need to sell 10000 before they make money. I just don't see it at this time and every year the costs just keep going up.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Well, I'll certainly buy several, but not all at once.


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## irishtrek (Sep 17, 2005)

spindrift said:


> getting tired of this subject myself...isn't happening. Just deal with it, I have- as much as I craved this kit. What a glorious kit it would be, I know R2 would have given it justice had they produced it.
> Howerver, why does Moebius continue to pour out BIG and small new tool kits??? My argument is they do this DESPITE NOT having the mother load of all franchises , Star Trek!!
> Gary


did you read the post Phantomstarnger made? It is on the second page of the thread entitled 'Round 2 future models". In his post PS states that R2 STILL wants to put out the 350 TOS E. And what that means is the project is NOT 100% dead yet.
Maybe next year one way or the other.......


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## ClubTepes (Jul 31, 2002)

Steve H said:


> And maybe they have the time to work out those troublesome engineering issues that seem to always plague the NCC-1701, like the huge stress imposed on the engineering hull by the pair of MASSIVE hunks of plastic called 'warp nacelles', and the twisting thereof on the pylons.


I got a fix for that.


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## falcondesigns (Oct 30, 2002)

A honeycomb inner structure with a channel for wires(lighting)would prevent the sagging issue.


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## Steve H (Feb 8, 2009)

falcondesigns said:


> A honeycomb inner structure with a channel for wires(lighting)would prevent the sagging issue.


and a solid piece 'strongback' for the top of the engineering hull as opposed to the old AMT 'split down the middle' would be a huge help as well.

But part of the issue would be making the hull solid and strong to support those nacelles (and the lighting equipment) AND being able to have a nicely detailed shuttle hanger bay.

See? starts to get tricky, huh? 

(yeah, I know, everybody's been thinking this to death for years  )


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

ClubTepes said:


> I got a fix for that.


Please share.
-Jim


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## irishtrek (Sep 17, 2005)

falcondesigns said:


> A honeycomb inner structure with a channel for wires(lighting)would prevent the sagging issue.


But don't forget just because the PL refit had sagging issues don't exactly mean TOS E in the same scale will have the same problem, after all the pylons on the refit are of a different design and shape, which may or may not result in a sagging problem. All depends on how the kit is designed I would think.


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

*well, Here I go being the "bad guy";

With ALLThe kits that are stacked up in all our closets, and 
under our beds, garages or whatever, as well as all the kits announced that will be coming out this year...whats the big deal with this classic enterprise ( which I also love) ??? R2 already re released the Amt enterprise, k7, soon to be repopped Romulan, and for you JJ fans, another enterprise...I know speaking for myself, I probably wont live long enough to build all 250 kits I have stacked up, not to mention where I would put them once they were built..

My suggestion is that I am sure R2 already is well aware that this Large Enterprise is much desired by we, the modeling community...
I think the best we can all do that would better serve ourselves, is to 
start BUILDING the K7, and the romulan BOP when it comes out, and also attack some of those kits we have stacked up, before hounding R2 for something that if they were certain they could afford,it would be out , since they would like to turn a profit...

As long as we keep buying and building, the manufacturers will make money, and it might justify investing the capital to produce this subject..but to constantly lament R2 for not wanting to invest capital that isnt sure to gve them a viable return..isnt productive ..and we need to remember , that Classic Star Trek is 45 years old..and with this "new" movie, and a new "kirk and company"..it wouldnt have the massive general appeal that R2 would need to make it worthwhile at this point in time..

Id say sit back and see what happens....as you are surrounded by all your unbuilt kits as well as whatever you have in progress...**the R2 blog last stated that they are aware that this kit is in some demand.
give em a chance...with moebius, Monarch , and Atlantis..I'd say at least for myself..I have plenty to keep me busy.


Z
*


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## Shaw (Jan 9, 2005)

Zathros said:


> *With ALLThe kits that are stacked up in all our closets, and
> under our beds, garages or whatever, as well as all the kits announced that will be coming out this year...whats the big deal with this classic enterprise ( which I also love) ???*


Again, you are not all of us... I don't have tons of unbuilt models, nor am I interested in doing other subjects.

My interest is in the original Enterprise.



> *My suggestion is that I am sure R2 already is well aware that this Large Enterprise is much desired by we, the modeling community...*


No they are not, and...



> *Id say sit back and see what happens....*


Which is the worst thing we can possible do.

I don't think the manner in which you do this makes any difference... complain, berate, kiss-butt, plead... the most important thing is to not be silent on this. The moment we stop making noise, they'll start to think that there is no market for this model.


*Zathros*, as you have made clear in other threads, you don't care about this subject... you should really move on and start building one of those hundreds of kits rather than wasting your time on a subject you don't really care about.

Have you done any models recently? When was the last time you made a Star Trek model?

Just curious. :thumbsup:


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

Shaw said:


> Again, you are not all of us... I don't have tons of unbuilt models, nor am I interested in doing other subjects.
> 
> My interest is in the original Enterprise.
> 
> ...


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## Shaw (Jan 9, 2005)

That is a hard post to read, so I'll wait to respond to the rest until after you get a chance to clean it up a bit more...



Zathros said:


> Id go reread what you think you read I posted..


Well, you said this...*Zathros:*
_"...That said, I basically forego all the "minutae"that many lose thier hair over, on The classic enterprise"_

*-and-*​
_"..since it wasnt really a real spacecraft, I dont feel it necessary to constantly pick over tiny details.."_​I think that pretty much shows you aren't interested in an accurate Enterprise... of any scale.

Or am I miss reading you? 



*Edit:*
This last part isn't too confusing, so I'll respond to it...



> its actually a bit funny in a silly way, that youd ask me that as if to "prove "I am a modeler..well
> for your benefit here goes:
> 
> aside of over 70 9'' classic action figures, prip replicas, book, posters etc..I have the following
> ...


I wasn't asking you to _prove_ anything... I just hadn't recalled seeing any threads on your builds.

Yes, I'd like to see pictures (not as proof, but because I like pictures) of your Trek models.

As for what I've done... not much. I recently finished a model of the Enterprise (which you can see shots of here) and I have a partially finished practice model of a Klingon (which you can see here). But as I said before, I'm not really a model builder, my hobby is the Enterprise.


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

Shaw said:


> That is a hard post to read, so I'll wait to respond to the rest until after you get a chance to clean it up a bit more...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*that comment you quoted me on about not being too picky about minute details was in regards to a fellow modeler that was too *"*overloaded" with details from all the other builders here that want thier enterpries to be absolutely , positively 100% accurate..my advice to him was basically to build it as he would like it, without being intimidated by so much details, as I did...

If only the classic Enterprise is your main interest, I can understand your frustration at R2 holding it up..I'm not happy as well..but as I said before, I have an awful lot to keep me busy kitwise, and I am confident sooner or later , they will put it out...but then again, in my case, I still like the original AMT classic enterprise, and it will definitely hold me over until R2 gets going on it.

by the way..lol...I have no idea why my previous post showed up that way....


Z
*


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## SteveR (Aug 7, 2005)

Zathros said:


> by the way..lol...I have no idea why my previous post showed up that way....


Gotta have the bold text between a "B" tag and a "/B" tag. If one of those is missing, or there's an extra one, all heckola breaks loose, HTML-wise. The same goes for quotes and such. 

In other words, tags travel in pairs: first without, then with, a forward slash.


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## Dr. Brad (Oct 5, 1999)

Or you could just post without any bold at all. Might be a bit easier to read that way.


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## bigdaddydaveh (Jul 20, 2007)

Shouldn't we all be channeling this energy into something productive? If you want the kit produced, you have to go down to your local hobby retail store and ask for it. Talk to the store manager or whoever orders model kits from the distributor. Tell them you know the kit is in the pipeline and you want it. They in turn will talk to their distributor and that my friends is how you generate interest in a product. We don't need to convince Polar Lights that we want the kit, we need to convince hobby retailers and distributors that we will buy it when it hits the shelves.


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## Steve H (Feb 8, 2009)

irishtrek said:


> But don't forget just because the PL refit had sagging issues don't exactly mean TOS E in the same scale will have the same problem, after all the pylons on the refit are of a different design and shape, which may or may not result in a sagging problem. All depends on how the kit is designed I would think.


Ah, but knowing history is useful.

I wasn't even thinking about the 1/350 refit, I was going all the way back to the AMT Enterprise kit, with its famous, epic war over nacelle sag.

And. mind, it's old and beaten to death I'm sure, I'm still shocked that the refit had the issues it did, it's not *cough cough* rocket science to figure that big canoes of plastic + little narrow thin connection (relatively speaking) = structural instability.

Well, R2 has plenty of time to noodle it and get it right.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Shaw, trust me, they DO know we want a 1/350 TOS E. They've said it many times. It's even well into the planning stages. They just say they can't afford the tooling without dumping every other project for a whole year, and don't want to risk the company on it until they have more financial certainty.


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## Dave Metzner (Jan 1, 1970)

Obviously many of you just don't understand.....
Round 2 is much ,much more than a plastic model company - just go to their web page and take a look. That would be www.round2corp.com. I count 6 different product lines listed on the opening page of that site!

There are holiday action figures under the name Forever Fun,
They produce several different lines of slot cars as well as sets...(they continue to introduce new items to those lines (that means that they're spending money for new toolig for new bodies and chassis)
There is a line of 1/18 scale die cast cars that came from RC-2 (American Muscle)
They have both the AMT and MPC lines of model car kits - (an entirely different audience than Star Trek)(they've been investing a little bit of money in those tools as they add to their car kit lines)
They are re-entering the small scale die cast car business (that's going to involve an investment in all new tooling for each car in that line)
They also do promotional die cast for NHRA and NASCAR as well as other customers..there were some newly tooled large scale die cast pieces on display at I-hobby for that product line (Toyota Solara funny cars in 1/24 scale for one- those tools were not cheap!)
They also just re-introduced Captain Action dolls - I have no Idea which division of Round 2 will be producing that product line....



Tom Lowe has alot more places to invest money than just Star Trek kits. 
I'd suggest that he's looked at all the product lines he wants to support and has allocated funds in the way he feels will produce the best return on his investment.
You guys may not like his decisions it but it is his money and his company


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## bigdaddydaveh (Jul 20, 2007)

Amen Dave! Thank you for adding some perspective. Trek is a small part of what they do. The figure modelers out there (present company included) have been asking for product as well and they have come through with the Dark Shadows and strange change kits. None of those kits have seen the light of day in decades and I'm looking forward to those releases. I want a 1/350 Old Girl as much as everyone else but we have to keep in mind, these other product lines pay the bills for the model production. Tom Lowe is passionate about models. I have no doubt we will see the big 1701.


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## ClubTepes (Jul 31, 2002)

falcondesigns said:


> A honeycomb inner structure with a channel for wires(lighting)would prevent the sagging issue.


Great minds think alike.

Yes thats exactly what I had in mind.
Without including some kind of metal armature, the best way to increase rigidity is to increase the amount of gluing surface.

With a glue joint running simply along the length of the nacelle strut, the natural flexibility of the plastic would allow for was certain amount of twist.

But if you put a pattern in there (hexagonal or even cross hatch) you now have a glue surface in line with the twist angle.

Such a pattern should greatly increase rigidity.

Another way to help the twist, is to increase the weight of the front of the nacelle. 
Due to the struts position on the nacelle, there is a tremendous amount of weight stern of the strut.
Making the nacelle heavier in the front will also help with that.


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## ClubTepes (Jul 31, 2002)

Steve H said:


> and a solid piece 'strongback' for the top of the engineering hull as opposed to the old AMT 'split down the middle' would be a huge help as well.
> 
> But part of the issue would be making the hull solid and strong to support those nacelles (and the lighting equipment) AND being able to have a nicely detailed shuttle hanger bay.
> 
> ...


At WF I proposed an idea that I've had for a long time about having the nacelle struts come together inside the secondary hull and continue down to the bottom of the lower hull (basically forming a Y when viewed from the front or rear). The bottom of the Y would lock into a slot in the bottom of the secondary hull. The would bring the stress away from a seam between the hull halves and guarantee proper front to back alignment of the struts as well.
As for fitting in a shuttle bay, the inner part of the Y could be made to accommodate the front wall for the bay.

Yeah, I agree, we've all be designing this thing in our heads for years.


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## Tiberious (Nov 20, 2001)

I'm done with worrying what R2 does or does not do. If they make a product I want, I'll buy it. If they don't, I won't. I'll be satisfied with my 1/350 MR TOS Enterprise (which I'm ashamed to say, looks better than anything I'd be able to build with my mediocre skills.)

That said, I will also admit that I do have DOZENS of models, unbuilt, stuffed on shelves, in boxes, in corners, etc as well as about ten that are awaiting repair and refurbishment. With my up-close eyesight fading and my hands becoming less stable, I figure the unbuilt models will outlast me if I never buy another model.

How sad.... but I'll still buy more. Denial is the spice of life! 

Tib


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## phicks (Nov 5, 2002)

Dave Metzner said:


> Obviously many of you just don't understand.....
> Round 2 is much ,much more than a plastic model company
> .....
> They produce several different lines of slot cars as well as sets...(they continue to introduce new items to those lines (that means that they're spending money for new toolig for new bodies and chassis)
> ...


And it absolutely terrifies me that once again the company that holds the Star Trek model licence would produce so many die cast cars that it will be a takeover target for Racing Champions, who would then shutdown the Star Trek modelling part of the business. 

I don't really care if Round 2 makes the 1/350 TOS Enterprise or not. I just wish they would make SOMETHING, *ANYTHING* new with the Star Trek licence. They announced they had the Star Trek licence in the summer of 2008 at Wonderfest. After 2 and 1/4 years they have produced ONE new kit. A second kit will maybe showup in another 6 months. It's getting pretty hard to sing their praises. I wish Round 2 would either use the Star Trek licence, or put it back on the market for someone else.


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## James Tiberius (Oct 23, 2007)

Amen!


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## Capt. Krik (May 26, 2001)

Actually, if the large Enterprise doesn't get produced this year there may still be some new Trek kits. I believe one of the kits they've looked at producing would be a 1/1000 scale Reliant. While not the large Enterprise it would still be a welcome addition to the Trek line of kits. I believe in one of the surveys they mentioned a few other Trek kits though I can't recall right now which ships they had in mind.


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## irishtrek (Sep 17, 2005)

I was unaware of the web link you posted Dave, thanks for informing us of that!
As for any new Trek kits some where down the road I would like to see the Excelsior in 1/1000 scale again. Yes I know they are reissuing the E-B any time now.


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## Dr. Brad (Oct 5, 1999)

I would absolutely love to see a Reliant in 1/1000!


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## ClubTepes (Jul 31, 2002)

irishtrek said:


> I was unaware of the web link you posted Dave, thanks for informing us of that!
> As for any new Trek kits some where down the road I would like to see the Excelsior in 1/1000 scale again. Yes I know they are reissuing the E-B any time now.


Actually, they can't do the Excelsior, because those molds were altered to make the 'B'.

A number of parts would have to be re-tooled from scratch in order to make the Exelsior.


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## spock62 (Aug 13, 2003)

Looks like all the begging/pleading for the 1/350 TOS Enterprise has paid off!

http://culttvman.com/main/


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## Paulbo (Sep 16, 2004)

Drat! You beat me to it, Spock!

Awesome news ... even if it does get pushed back a ways.


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## spock62 (Aug 13, 2003)

Surprised that I was first with the news! Hopefully, I'll have a job by the time it's released so I can afford to get one!


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## irishtrek (Sep 17, 2005)

ClubTepes said:


> Actually, they can't do the Excelsior, because those molds were altered to make the 'B'.
> 
> A number of parts would have to be re-tooled from scratch in order to make the Exelsior.


All they would have to do is make new molds for the saucer top the bottom of the secondary hull and the 2 forward end caps for the warp engines.


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## CaptFrank (Jan 29, 2005)

Dave Metzner said:


> Obviously many of you just don't understand.....
> Round 2 is much ,much more than a plastic model company - just go to their web page and take a look. That would be www.round2corp.com. I count 6 different product lines listed on the opening page of that site!
> 
> There are holiday action figures under the name Forever Fun,
> ...


And there is the problem!
If Round 2 dumped all those product lines, and concentrated solely
on "Star Trek" plastic model kits, we modelers could have the kits
we demand!!


Kidding! it's just a joke!:jest::tongue:
Don't hurt me!


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## DL Matthys (May 8, 2004)

Really... who here on this *Models* forum gives a frack over die cast toys and slot cars? 


Don
I*PM*S 32708

(*P*lastic *M*odels)


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## irishtrek (Sep 17, 2005)

He's just saying that R2 makes products for not just us model builders but for other folks also like little boys who like to play with die cast cars, surley you remember playing with Hot wheels and Matchbox cars, don't ya?


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## Gemini1999 (Sep 25, 2008)

DL Matthys said:


> Really... who here on this *Models* forum gives a frack over die cast toys and slot cars?


Actually, when it comes to die cast toys and cars.....I do!

I've always collected die cast models in various sizes and genre. I enjoy it just as much as I do building models and collecting them. I usually go to the die cast forum here at HT to discuss it, but since you asked the question, you got an answer...

Bryan


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## eimb1999 (Sep 8, 2007)

Looking at many of the posts on this forum re Round 2's releases.... it's obvious that some of you get it, some clearly don't. The ones that don't have obviously never been successful at a business operation. Having said that, though I can relate to both sides of the arguement, as I have been on both sides myself, and continue to be there. Let me give you an example of the more learned side...

A while ago, people who had seen a model build up on my site were asking all over the place if I ever would make a kit of it. I knew it would be expensive to produce, so I tried to take a poll of sorts. I announced on various forums that if enough people were interested I'd produce a kit. I had to be able to sell enough of them to make it worth my while, as getting them molded and cast would cost me a lot of money. 

More than fifty people said they definitely wanted one. They were most enthusiastic and as gung-ho as all get out about getting one. So, I decided to do a run of a baker's dozen to see if I could satisfy the demand, knowing that at least some would change their minds. I'd make more if I sold them all and there was still a demand.

When the kits were all ready to go, I informed the fifty plus people on the waiting list that the kits were ready to go.

Some of the people replied saying thery were not interested. Three or four.

Know how many actually bought a kit?

One. That's right, ONE! Just one single individual from that list of fifty who were all supposedly bending over backwards to get one... just ONE actually came through. The rest never even bothered to reply to my announcement. So, I'm out all kinds of money because I can't sell the kits I manufactured. Cost me a pile of money too which I still have not recovered.

So, the point is, whatever Round 2 actually does, you can be sure that they will do a better job of market research than I did, and if they are smart, to take all the criticisms they recieve with a grain of salt, as all the bitching all over the blogosphere doesn't mean a hill of beans when the milling cutters hit the steel.


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## Kitzillastein58 (Jan 27, 2009)

eimb1999 said:


> Looking at many of the posts on this forum re Round 2's releases.... it's obvious that some of you get it, some clearly don't. The ones that don't have obviously never been successful at a business operation. Having said that, though I can relate to both sides of the arguement, as I have been on both sides myself, and continue to be there. Let me give you an example of the more learned side...
> 
> A while ago, people who had seen a model build up on my site were asking all over the place if I ever would make a kit of it. I knew it would be expensive to produce, so I tried to take a poll of sorts. I announced on various forums that if enough people were interested I'd produce a kit. I had to be able to sell enough of them to make it worth my while, as getting them molded and cast would cost me a lot of money.
> 
> ...


Maybe someone here might be interested in them if you have any left. What was the subject of the kit, and the price range? Also do you have any pics?


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## Dave P (Jan 5, 2005)

eimb1999 said:


> Just one single individual from that list of fifty who were all supposedly bending over backwards to get one... just ONE actually came through. The rest never even bothered to reply to my announcement. So, I'm out all kinds of money because I can't sell the kits I manufactured. Cost me a pile of money too which I still have not recovered.



And that about sums it up. Can't tell you how many times I've heard a similar story. Thanks for sharing your experience.


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

eimb1999 said:


> the point is, whatever Round 2 actually does, you can be sure that they will do a better job of market research than I did, and if they are smart, to take all the criticisms they recieve with a grain of salt, as all the bitching all over the blogosphere doesn't mean a hill of beans when the milling cutters hit the steel.


Great post.

No group in injection-molded sci-fi kit history has been more vocal than those clamoring for a Moebius Jupiter 2. Judging from the online chatter you'd have thought sales for that particular kit would be through the roof. In reality, the kit failed to meet Moebius' economic expectations.

I suspect Round 2 will eventually hit upon a financially sound way to bring a 1/350 E to market, but in the meantime I fully understand why they're treading as lightly as they are. Model kits as big and expensive as the one being discussed are extremely costly to produce, and there's no such thing as a sure-fire slam-dunk. Despite comments to the contrary.


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## moonbus01 (Jun 4, 2010)

So true. When all the yakking stops, where are the wallets?


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

My plan is to buy many, but at $150 I'll have to go slow. Like, buy one every couple of months instead of 2 or 3 all at once.

I somehow ended up with 8 of the first-issue refits, 'cause they were priced REALLY well.


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

There are a probably few differences between the sales figures for the _Jupiter 2_ kit and what would be the expected sales of the 1/350 _Enterprise_ kit.

I would imagine the majority of modelers who bought the _Jupiter 2_ only bought one. Other than the subtle differences in the appearance of the craft throughout the three seasons, and what is represented by the full-size prop and the studio models (in particular, the landing gear), there is only one _Jupiter 2_. Most modelers are satisfied with creating a single idealized "showpiece" display model. The other problem faced by Moebius (and Frank has commented on this) is that many modelers think that the Moebius kit is simply a reissue of the earlier Polar Lights kit, and have not purchased it due to that misconception. I bought just one, myself - and am very satisfied with it, even though it was just recently that I watched a complete episode of _Lost In Space_ all the way through for the first time.

The original _Enterprise_, on the other hand, has at least three significantly different versions that were represented on the show, which would greatly appeal to the hardcore enthusiast who wants to represent more than just the series' production version. There are also the sister ships in the class, plus all of the Franz Joseph 'tech manual' and other fan-produced designs that make the kit very attractive for kitbashing and aftermarket conversion kits. Even the Masterpiece Replicas display model of the _Enterprise_ (in the same scale) completely sold out, despite being priced at $1000-$2000 apiece!

I seriously doubt if Round 2 would have a major difficulty selling these kits, even if priced in the $120-$150 price range, as many of us will be buying many more than just one in order to satisfy all of the creative possibilities that this kit would offer.


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## rtbeuke (Sep 29, 2008)

I'm 57 and have always built models and collected die cast cars and still have a slot car set! I am very thankful for all of the products that Round 2 produces.

I even buy products from their Forever Fun line to give to my grandchildren!


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

Trek Ace said:


> I seriously doubt if Round 2 would have a major difficulty selling these kits, even if priced in the $120-$150 price range, as many of us will be buying many more than just one in order to satisfy all of the creative possibilities that this kit would offer.


I sincerely hope you're right.

My suspicion is that many of those demanding a 1/350 E would be lucky to get one version of the model done, let alone several (John P. notwithstanding). But, you know, hope springs eternal.


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## kangg7 (Jun 21, 2000)

I've got to chime in here and say that When I get one, it will be only one of these big kits. If I want to do several different versions I will be getting the 1/1000 version because it's the best, most economical way to do all the variations. I may be the only one here to say this, but I just couldn't afford to get more than one of the big guys. it'll have to be the production version and that's it. 

Model on...

Dave


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

Carson Dyle said:


> I sincerely hope you're right.
> 
> My suspicion is that many of those demanding a 1/350 E would be lucky to get one version of the model done, let alone several (John P. notwithstanding). But, you know, hope springs eternal.


It's not how many we may get done, but rather how many we buy that counts.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

That's MY philosophy! :lol:


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## miniature sun (May 1, 2005)

For every keen modeller on boards like this one clamouring for a TOS Enterprise there's probably a thousand more with no interest in buying one....and I'm talking SF modellers here, not the aircraft and tank fans.
I've been modelling all things space and SF related for over 40 years and yet I've no interest in adding the Enterprise to my collection, despite being a fan of both the TV series and movies.
I'm not saying that the kit shouldn't be made, simply that the actual market for it is probably not as strong as many would like to think.
It's also worth considering that Star Trek is possibly less popular today than it was when the bulk of the existing kits were produced in the 70's and 80's, and of all the ardent fans that remain, the majority of them are not modellers.
I guess it's a similar story for the large Spindrift that we'd all like to see.
So for people to say 'build it and they will come' I think is shortsighted.


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## Moebius (Mar 15, 2007)

miniature sun said:


> For every keen modeller on boards like this one clamouring for a TOS Enterprise there's probably a thousand more with no interest in buying one....and I'm talking SF modellers here, not the aircraft and tank fans.
> I've been modelling all things space and SF related for over 40 years and yet I've no interest in adding the Enterprise to my collection, despite being a fan of both the TV series and movies.
> I'm not saying that the kit shouldn't be made, simply that the actual market for it is probably not as strong as many would like to think.
> It's also worth considering that Star Trek is possibly less popular today than it was when the bulk of the existing kits were produced in the 70's and 80's, and of all the ardent fans that remain, the majority of them are not modellers.
> ...


I have a new hero!


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Frank, if I hit the powerball tonight, I'll finance the dern thing myself.


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## RSN (Jul 29, 2008)

Carson Dyle said:


> Great post.
> 
> No group in injection-molded sci-fi kit history has been more vocal than those clamoring for a Moebius Jupiter 2. Judging from the online chatter you'd have thought sales for that particular kit would be through the roof. In reality, the kit failed to meet Moebius' economic expectations.
> 
> I suspect Round 2 will eventually hit upon a financially sound way to bring a 1/350 E to market, but in the meantime I fully understand why they're treading as lightly as they are. Model kits as big and expensive as the one being discussed are extremely costly to produce, and there's no such thing as a sure-fire slam-dunk. Despite comments to the contrary.


I did my part! I have two Jupiter II's waiting for some TLC buliding. Should the Big E get made, I dare say I would be doing the same! At least with the Enterprise, you have the options of 3 different versions of the same basic ship to build. With the Jupiter, you just have gear up or gear down. If you are VERY brave, you could do some heavy mods and create a Gemini XII. (I am either brave or foolish, because I am planning a Gemini converson!) As for our "Gray Lady", 1st Pilot and Production version would be how I built my 2! I am in no rush, when it comes out, I will be ready, if not, there are plenty of other subjects waiting!


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## spindrift (Apr 16, 2005)

It would be a HUGE selller. R2 remains shortsighted in the dark about doing this kit. At $150 a pop they would still sell what with discounts and such. This would outsell all of the sci fi kits on the market, give it a year or two and watch those STEADY sales mount up. A vast tool resource for say, the next twenty years? At least? 
Gary


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## Kit (Jul 9, 2009)

Meanwhile, you can pre-order both editions at Tower Hobbies:

http://www.towerhobbies.com/plastic/listings/fiction_space_model.html

Scroll down for the premier and standard editions of the 1/350 TOS Enterprise.

That was some accidental release of a tentative plan. It was deifnitive enough for some distributors to list the kit, I guess.


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## Kit (Jul 9, 2009)

I found it on the second page.


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