# Changed my mind...



## LGFugate (Sep 11, 2000)

After all the years of reading posts here (and on other HobbyTalk modeling forums) where posters fuss and fight over tiny details and imagined slights, I've decided to renouce my hatred of Facebook, at least partially. The Moebius Facebook page will now be the only Facebook page I will visit, because I don't blame Frank and Dave at all for leaving these forums.

Please don't get me wrong...95% of the time, the camaradrie here is fantastic, and I can't help but LOVE the photos and descriptions of building techniques. I'll still be here watching these forums. But to get the information I want about Moebius kits without all the rancor that erupts whenever a new one is announced, I'll make a quick stop by Frank's Moebius Facebook page.

Please, those of you who do not troll, please do not take offense. I have been a member here since the Polar Lights days (I miss Lisa!!), and will continue to be a contributing member when I can. I just can't take the bile that spills so frequently and so undeservedly.

Thanks for reading. Model on!

Larry


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## Seaview (Feb 18, 2004)

Be well, Larry, we'll see you over at the Moebius FB page, then. Incidentally, did you get your copy of the new Time Tunnel book?


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## Ductapeforever (Mar 6, 2008)

Most folk here are well meaning. But the vitriol expressed here by others drove away
Frank and Dave from Moebius and is not being well recieved by the folks at Round 2. In my opinion, were I a kit manufacturer I wouldn't share anything about my products with anyone here ever again. It's the reason I don't post any of my work here anymore either. You made your bed boys, no one feels sorry for you.


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## RSN (Jul 29, 2008)

I have found it is best to check your ego at the door when posting anywhere on the internet. This board is no exception. Just because an opposing view is given on a subject, it does not mean ill will is aimed at that view. I can see why some would get tired of the round and round discussion on the same subject, (There is NO big Spindrift coming!), but I hope no one has gone out of their way to be the "School Yard Bully"!


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## Chrisisall (May 12, 2011)

I think the key is not to take stuff so personal. Ya got to have a sense of humour.

What? You think I'm _wrong_?

All right. I'm _outta here_. And I'm takin' all my toys!!!

JK...
I've stayed for years on sites that make this look like a love-in.
It's all good. Well, mostly. Mostly good.
Like 98.8325% good. Maybe .0735% more than that.
I have to check my figures.


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## RMC (Aug 11, 2004)

you folks are correct ...I AGREE.....


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## Chrisisall (May 12, 2011)

RMC said:


> you folks are correct ...I AGREE.....


That is wise.


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## steve123 (Feb 9, 2009)

Only a thousand posts and already you are upset?...Have you no concept of time?

The stars mock you, the Glaciers are.... cold....lol

Steve


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## Seaview (Feb 18, 2004)

No BIG Spindrift? It is what it is.


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## Chrisisall (May 12, 2011)

Seaview said:


> No BIG Spindrift?











I got mine; you get yours.


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## steve123 (Feb 9, 2009)

All the boring posts...all the blurry pictures....oh, wait, That's me...
The wife never calls My Spindrift little. She says it brings alot to the party.









Steve


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## RSN (Jul 29, 2008)

Seaview said:


> No BIG Spindrift? It is what it is.


 :thumbsup:


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## kdaracal (Jan 24, 2009)

Larry, I hope you continue to post your stuff now and then. I love your work!


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## Chrisisall (May 12, 2011)

steve123 said:


> All the boring posts...all the blurry pictures....oh, wait, That's me...
> 
> Steve


I get it- no, I do, that was directed at me, wasn't it? My last pic was blurry. Okay so sue me. Is this better?








That's it, I'm outta here.
I know when I've been insulted.


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## Chrisisall (May 12, 2011)

I'm sorry, I'm having too much fun here....:wave:


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## iamweasel (Aug 14, 2000)

Larry it was worse here waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back when but there is still the hobbytalk AKC who seem to need a new diaper every 10 minutes.


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## steve123 (Feb 9, 2009)

oooh, your drift is so,....orange..

Hey, My diaper is umm,...I'll be right back

Steve


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## Chrisisall (May 12, 2011)

steve123 said:


> oooh, your drift is so,....orange..
> 
> Hey, My diaper is umm,...I'll be right back











I know when I've been insulted!


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## Tim Nolan (Jul 9, 2008)

I wasn't aware that Dave and Frank bailed. When did that happen? Why did that happen? 

Forums of any kinds have thier ups and downs, just as peoples moods do, and that's what greatly affects what's going on. Sometimes I take a break from all of them, and just coast. But when I'm building, I like to share my work and thoughts. 

Just as we all had longings for many years for decent Lost in Space kits (for example), and now we have them. Although the Spindrift isn't a huge fascination for me, one of my good friends just loves it. He has built several of them, and he'd love to have a large scale one! So what people want, they are going to long for, and in an open forum with manufacturers reps on-site, they are going to ask for it. There's nothing wrong with that! This particular forum, Moebius Models, has enjoyed much praise and many a satisfied customer the last few years hasn't it? This is actually the only area I visit most of the time, other than Sci-Fi once in a while. Kit's from Moebius have become the kits of choice for not only myself, but for a lot of you as well! 

The big picture is you can't make everyone happy all the time, no matter what you do. That's just part of being human. If dogs built models, they probably be really stoked with the site! :tongue:


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## Chrisisall (May 12, 2011)

All joking aside for a second, most other sites I belong to & like so much have stagnated some recently... same old stuff over & over, but modeling sites like this one are _alive_, even when the shows are cancelled & the movies have no sequels!
Creativity RULES!!!!:thumbsup:

_*WE RULE!!!!!*_

As long as we, you know, _make_ stuff. 

ETA: cute alien there, BTW!


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## g_xii (Mar 20, 2002)

And this has what to do with Moebius Models? :freak:

OK -- this one time, I'll post a dog pic too.


Proof we can all get along. If a Rottweiler and a cat can do it, so can we. And she still gets along just fine with the cat two years and almost a hundred pounds later!

--Henry


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## Chrisisall (May 12, 2011)

That's great! 
"Cats and dogs, living together..."


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

My dog looks down her nose at you all!


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## geoffdude (Mar 31, 2009)

There are so many interesting points to address, and make, regarding this thread I don't know where to start. I think I'll scatter-shot my thoughts, and hopefully some will hit. Before I start though, no offense to anyone.

*(1) Seasoned* - I've belonged to many, many, many forums (or chat rooms as they were called) for almost 20 years starting back in 1992. Most of my experience has been positive, but there has also been some very negative experiences. Just like real life. This will never change, so the individual must either accept that or move on.

*(2) Forums have a "vibe" or "flavor"* - Some forums encourage complete honesty, allow curse words, no-holds bar exchanges, others stifle any free thought or true expression of individual commentary... most though fall somewhere in the middle. I tend to enjoy the more honest, no-holds bar, style forums as that's my personality type, I choose not to participate in really heavy-handed moderated forums. My choice... and the great thing about having so many forums about.

*(3) Generation Gap* - many forums I belong to would make members here have a stroke (I'm not joking). The pictures the members show, the language they use, the slang they invoke all generate from 20 somethings and younger. Yet, even at my age (48) I have no problem with how they communicate, illegal pics, teen-jargon or whatever. I feel more like I'm on the outside looking in, but I also am not 65 years old, and I have two teens at home... and I'm not a prude. I get where they are coming from.

Cut to another forum (not this one) where no member can use any curse words, such as a simple "damn", or show any disagreement with the "vibe" of the forum, question moderators or have an issue with another forum member or you will most likely be warned or banned. This type of forum makes me nauseous, as I'm not 5. Seriously.

I also enjoy forums that are squarely in the middle of those two extremes. However, a pervasive attitude at many of these forums is "proprietary guardianship". The older members feel they control the "vibe" of the forum, and are quick to interject subjective "control" via snotty replies or rat out other member via pms to mods attempting to reign in those members that don't "fit" their perspective ideals of what they want, or think, the forum should be. These are people very set in their ways, and think in fairly black and white terms. Which makes it very difficult to have variant thoughts and discussions within a forum category. I would say many of the "proprietary guardians" fall within the late 40s to 60s age range... as most of the other collector forums I frequent are much more accepting of off-shoot conversing, or topics, (within a specific thread) and skew much younger at about 20-30. Generally speaking, age does seem to affect how certain people view what a forum is... or "should" be.

*(4) Tolerance* - If everyone practiced it, then most hard-feelings would evaporate. The example of "leave the ego" at home is a good one. Forum member, model company owner, moderator, 65 year old pro-model builder, whomever... leave the ego at home. We all need to have thicker skins, ignore the comment that bothers, or address it, then just move on to other topics. Tolerance can go along way.

*(5) New world order* - This is the way things are. There is no putting the Genie back in the bottle. The premise of a "forum" is to encourage discussion, and provide an area for like-minded people to congregate. Getting upset because a kit is getting some negative comments, or people not building models, or that people behave differently is not healthy. Given that the world doesn't work like that, why should we expect any forum to be insulated from reality? Basically, if we all empathise with others thoughts and ideals then there would be much less drama or theatrics.

**And this thread needs less dogs and more cow bell...*










Regards,

G.


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## Chrisisall (May 12, 2011)

Geoffdude, you said it best!!!:thumbsup:


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## Chrisisall (May 12, 2011)

John P said:


> My dog looks down her nose at you all!












I know when I've been insulted!


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## sunburn800 (Nov 24, 2006)

this has been one of the best forums i have ever been a part of and i have felt welcome here. True i don't post alot but the people for the most part have been very friendly so thank you all.


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## LGFugate (Sep 11, 2000)

This thread is why I keep coming back! What a great sense of spirit, of fun, and of course, exceptional modeling!

Seaview, I saw the thread about the Time Tunnel book, but missed where to get it - can you fill me in or direct me to someplace?

Thanks, guys!

Larry

:wave:


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)




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## LGFugate (Sep 11, 2000)

John,

If I did that (panting and winking), I'd get thrown in jail!
:jest:

Larry


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## g_xii (Mar 20, 2002)

John P said:


>


After a few minutes... it feels like it's trying to hypnotize me!!! HELP!

--H


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## Solium (Apr 24, 2005)

How do you find your dog when it snows? 

Edit: I refuse to have anything to do with Facebook. When another member or Cult posts an update I will learn whats new and interesting.


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## Tim Nolan (Jul 9, 2008)

Solium said:


> How do you find your dog when it snows?
> 
> Edit: I refuse to have anything to do with Facebook. When another member or Cult posts an update I will learn whats new and interesting.


I agree. My daughter put me on Facebook a while back, telling me I was missing "everything" by not being on there. Let's see, got connected with dozens of dweebs I hadn't talked to since high school 30 yrs. ago and have no interest in talking to. I've had friend requests from some of the the strangest people I have ever seen and can't even begin to figure out a connection, and the few people I enjoy talking to I talk to on the phone or see regularly. Granted, I have connected with some other artists I would never have a chance to meet, but that's about it. "Hey, how about that Farm Game on Facebook?" NOT!!!!!! :freak:

These forums are much better....


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## LGFugate (Sep 11, 2000)

Believe me, I'm NOT in love with Facebook. I have not, and will not "sign up" for the service. I just go to the Moebius page, get the info I want, and get out. As quickly as possible. With as little interaction as possible! I still firmly believe that Facebook is nothing but a den of evil, with pedofiles waiting around every corner for an unsuspecting child to pounce upon. While the Internet is a Wild West sort of environment, Facebook is worse, with it constantly trying to sell or expose any information you unwittingly provide to it. I don't want to hook up with anyone, I definately don't want to find anyone from my sordid past. I have REAL friends, don't need virtual ones.

I dig why Frank and Dave moved there, it's free, and a LOT of folks already "live" there. Ready made for someone to promote their business. I just wouldn't do so myself.

Larry


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## RSN (Jul 29, 2008)

Seriously, Facebook is just a tool. I use it and my kids use it. It is no different than sending your kids out the door to school every morning. You do what you can to watch over them and protect them, but the biggest dangers in the world are the ones you never see coming.


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## steve123 (Feb 9, 2009)

I was hoping we'd get a laugh out of 'yas!

I got upset too in model cars a few weeks ago... You just gotta laugh and ignore the site for a few days.
Here's my obligatory pet pic..








Isn't he cute? but he's waaaay too smart for his own (or my) own good.
Oh, look we woke him up..








Chris, he just muttered something about you...

Steve


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## Richard Baker (Aug 8, 2006)

I am taking a few months away from a different forum because I found it was getting to me- I was reacting beyond what was called for and that was not fun. I am mostly lurking here and at EagleTransporter- keeping up with new releases but not really involving myself too much.
I have a couple of big personal things happening in my life right now which are taking up most of my attention, but I have not given up on the hobby or the people.

BTW- I had to join the FB collective to locate an old girlfriend I knew in college and have not done much with it since. I have used it to locate some smok'n hot babes to date though (and they were NOT pissed off 60yearold FBI agents when we met in person either)


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## Mr. Wabac (Nov 9, 2002)

What's Facebook ? :tongue:


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## Chrisisall (May 12, 2011)

Chris, he just muttered something about you...









I know when I've been insulted!


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## steve123 (Feb 9, 2009)

I think it was something like"copyright infringment" But, how would he know about that? it was probably "sloppy fight management" But that makes no sense....

Steve


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## g_xii (Mar 20, 2002)

I think a lot of folks are comfortable with forum usage over facebook because it is a "smaller" community. You eventually get to know even those that annoy you. 

Facebook is huge -- and I like aspects of it, but myself refuse to participate in any of the "games" or "apps" they are always pushing. I like how you do have some control over who see's what about you on a personal page, and how if someone annoys you, that person can simply be tagged as an annoyance and you don't even see their posts anymore, but they don't know you've done this so there are no hard feelings. I have a "friend" who is CONSTANTLY self-promoting himself, and leaves at least a dozen posts a day -- I got tired of reading his posts and blocked them! 

I started a facebook page for TSDS. I have to admit, they have the EASIEST method for uploading an organizing photos of all the sites out there. I had a "gallery" on my website, but to add or make changes to it, I literally had to re-upload the entire website, and with 40+ pages of text and graphics, it was time consuming and I found myself never updating the gallery. Now when people send me photos of their builds using my products, I post them at Facebook! I'm in the process of changing my website button that says "Gallery" to "FB Gallery" with the Facebook logo. Nice easy update for me.

However, all that said, I also agree with some of the comments above about how it is potentially a "den of sin" so-to-speak, and I'm always mindful of what I'm doing out there -- especially with my "personal" FB page!

Bottom line: To each his own!

--Henry


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## LGFugate (Sep 11, 2000)

I think Henry has summed this topic up nicely - "To each his own". A rule I like to live by whenever possible.

Larry

:thumbsup:


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## Solium (Apr 24, 2005)

FB has complete contempt for their members privacy. How they use or abuse members personal information is what I object too.


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## Lee Staton (May 13, 2000)

I probably agree with Larry more than disagree. There's a double standard on these boards. 

Modeler to modeler, we tend to encourage and overlook shortcomings. I've seen guys post photos of their work that are positively mediocre, but plenty of us chime in and give encouraging and supportive words...choosing any constructive criticism gently. After all, we want them to keep at it and get better.

Modeler to model company, we tend to tear apart and find fault. Sure, occasionally we gush. But then the company doesn't live up to some standard we assign it--after all, we're ENTITLED to everything our way--and the knives come out. Not diplomatically, and certainly not constructively.

If we did that to individual modelers, we know they'd likely quit the board and give up on modeling. What do we think our strong words will do to model companies?

These are not faceless, Time Warner-sized conglomerates. We know the faces behind Moebius, Pegasus, Monarch, Atlantis, Round 2. They talk to us, write to us, and share their kit ambitions. I've even had lunch with the much-maligned Tom Lowe, and guess what? He is a fan just like us (only wealthier).

I guess the real question is this: Is the hobby better off when we let fly without personal restraint?

Just askin'.

Lee


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## Chrisisall (May 12, 2011)

Lee Staton said:


> These are not faceless, Time Warner-sized conglomerates. We know the faces behind Moebius, Pegasus, Monarch, Atlantis, Round 2. They talk to us


And they DESERVE our respect, if not borderline worship for their *HARD* work!
They make our lives more interesting, and indeed, easier.
Imagine making some of these things from scratch. Yeah, most of us could probably do it, but think how severely that would cut back on the _number_ of fine pieces we'd have sitting on our shelves.

Personally, I'm way cooler with accurizing details I don't agree with, or feel were missed than scratching entire projects! 

*THANKS, YOU AMAZING MODEL-PRODUCING PEEPS!*


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## iamweasel (Aug 14, 2000)

Well when the model company guys posted, it seemed like a red cape waved in frontof a bull. Sadly my son at 2 years of age had far less tantrums then some grown men have had.


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## steve123 (Feb 9, 2009)

Lee said:Modeler to modeler, we tend to encourage and overlook shortcomings. I've seen guys post photos of their work that are positively mediocre, but plenty of us chime in and give encouraging and supportive words...choosing any constructive criticism gently. After all, we want them to keep at it and get better.
He's talkin about me again.. Aint 'e?...

As modelers we are in a "Golden Age" the models cost alot of "gold" and most of us,..are, .well, ....anyway.
It's easy, when guys get together and feel comfortable to "Bitch" it's what folks do. 
The Mods here do get weary of it.
But, for the most part this board is fun and helpful. I like being here, but, as with any interactions, there are bound to be weirdnesess..is that a word?

It's better to be here, than not to be here.. I think.

Steve


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## Chrisisall (May 12, 2011)

steve123 said:


> As modelers we are in a "Golden Age"


:thumbsup:


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## geoffdude (Mar 31, 2009)

Lee Staton said:


> I probably agree with Larry more than disagree. There's a double standard on these boards.
> 
> Modeler to modeler, we tend to encourage and overlook shortcomings. I've seen guys post photos of their work that are positively mediocre, but plenty of us chime in and give encouraging and supportive words...choosing any constructive criticism gently. After all, we want them to keep at it and get better.
> 
> ...


I understand some members here don't want to bite the hand of any model company, lest they may cease to make models . But, these are businesses like any other. Sure, they may be small, but they are still a business. If we have issues with them, or their products, then they should be brought up and discussed. And quite honestly, any company worth doing business with should be more than happy to hear that feedback and deal with it professionally and courteously... whether here or on Facebook. :thumbsup:

Regards,

G.


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## Seaview (Feb 18, 2004)

Larry,
Here is the link for ordering the Time Tunnel book:
http://fabgearusa.com/project_tic_toc_the_making_of_the_time_tunnel.html


No BIG Spindrift. Awwww, nuts.


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## zike (Jan 3, 2009)

Chrisisall said:


> And they DESERVE our respect, if not borderline worship for their *HARD* work!
> [/B]


I think that statement is way over the top.

They deserve the respect that they earn.

They also deserve our honest feedback.

Moebius is a great model company. I don't know if I can count the number of Moebius kits I own or the amount of money I've spent on them. I have purchased several of their kits in case lots and multiples. And I'm not talking about their little kits. I've bought a case lot of Seaviews and multiple Jupiter 2 kits. I've got five Space Pods. I got another Chariot in the mail six days ago. No, I'm not a business. I'm just a guy who likes building models. BTW, it's not just vehicles but I've also bought most of their figure kits.

I've praised their kits as some of the best ever made.

But, if they make a clunker, I'm going to call it a clunker. I'll be honest. It's not because I want to be nasty. It's because I want to give them feedback on what I want to buy and what I think can be improved. I have criticized two kits and I make no apologies. Their Frankenstein kit isn't very good. It just isn't. The likeness is off, the proportions are off and the diorama is dull and angular. The Von Franco Eye Gone Wild was phoned in. It looks nothing like the art; it's just a poorly conceived toy-like kit.

Do I feel bad or disloyal for offering an honest and even brutal opinion? No, not at all.

After buying perhaps three dozen Moebius kits and spending upwards of $1500.00, I don't feel obliged to suck up to them or curry favor. Talk is cheap. If Moebius wants my MONEY, I'll give them my honest opinon and honest feedback to help them get my money. That means I will praise their good kits (of which there are many) and I'll criticize their poor kits (of which there are a few).

My respect isn't free. It is earned. Worship is for fanboys.


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## LGFugate (Sep 11, 2000)

Thanks, Seaview! I've got it ordered, can't wait to get it!

Larry

:wave:


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## SUNGOD (Jan 20, 2006)

zike said:


> I think that statement is way over the top.
> 
> They deserve the respect that they earn.
> 
> ...



Well said. Apart from one or two blatantly silly comments (one of them was about suing) 99% of the comments about Moebius on here have been very positive including comments from me. I stuck up for their Spiderman, Green Goblin and Iron Man when some people criticised the poses and have often praised them on here. I also own 7 Moebius kits so far and will no doubt buy more.

I think they're a great bunch of guys and a great company......but whilst forums like this exist people are going to voice their opinions about various things even if it's not always what model companies want to hear. 

As long as people aren't being abusive and they put forward their views in a rational and intelligent way then we can't be blamed for doing that at all.

I know some people think we should be positive 100% of the time but I think that's unhealthy for these forums and model companies.


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## LGFugate (Sep 11, 2000)

I agree that companies need our feedback. that's one reason they come here! Having said that, we have to realize that there are two ways of saying anything.

The worst critism can be given gently, without rancor. What's been happening is that some folks just don't know how to express themselves in a public setting. Instead of saying "that stinks!" or something worse, it's much better to say "I have to disagree with the way that's done". When you bring negative emotions into a conversation, somebody's gonna get hurt and then we all suffer. If the other fellow disagrees, then agree to disagree and go on. If you don't like what's being done, don't buy it, or better yet, buy it and do it your way and show everyone how it's done! 

As an example, almost everyone agrees the 18-inch AMT TOS Enterprise is not accurate. However, many have taken the kit and re-worked it into great examples of the modeler's art. They have corrected the accuracies they perceived and produced models worthy of being in a High-Def movie.

Keep in mind that if you make the fellow you disagree with mad, and you will get nowhere. Try some sugar instead of vinegar, and you'll find that more often than not, you can make them see your side, too.

Larry :thumbsup:


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## SUNGOD (Jan 20, 2006)

LGFugate said:


> I agree that companies need our feedback. that's one reason they come here! Having said that, we have to realize that there are two ways of saying anything.
> 
> The worst critism can be given gently, without rancor. What's been happening is that some folks just don't know how to express themselves in a public setting. Instead of saying "that stinks!" or something worse, it's much better to say "I have to disagree with the way that's done". When you bring negative emotions into a conversation, somebody's gonna get hurt and then we all suffer. If the other fellow disagrees, then agree to disagree and go on. If you don't like what's being done, don't buy it, or better yet, buy it and do it your way and show everyone how it's done!
> 
> ...



You must be on a different forum to me. I've seen people (including myself) saying they dislike certain aspects of a model on a* rare *occasion (I don't think I've ever seen anyone apart from maybe once be abusive) but I get the impression that all you want is sugar. 

99% of the comments have been people saying why they might dislike a certain aspect of a model in a normal, non abusive rational way.


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## Chrisisall (May 12, 2011)

zike said:


> I think that statement is way over the top.
> 
> 
> My respect isn't free. It is earned. Worship is for fanboys.


Okay, you're right, I guess I just speaking for myself here. Some of my favourite models of all time are loaded with inaccuracies (the classic Viper being my TOP one), and I just rework them as necessary. I just SO appreciate the base from which to work. From scratch, these models would take MONTHS!
Fact is, I've never made a model that I didn't feel the need to augment a bit, upgrade, or substantially re-work. So that's why I guess I'm a little happier with whatever comes out than some.

(Oh, the MPC Millenium Falcon just came to mind, that was pretty much just a creative paint job with no structural changes...)


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## steve123 (Feb 9, 2009)

I'm just gonna say this,...they are toys. Lives will not end if they are not "perfect" These guys are letting us build stuff that nobody else was ready to market. I apprecate that. The kits have flaws...gee, so do I.

What's gonna change in your life if you spend more time on a kit fixing flaws? Is it gonna cut into your time dating swimsuit models? I think not.

Here is the new moebius Forum mod. Henry Just blew his brains out...after trying to ride herd on this bunch. 
I guess I was wrong about lives not ending...










Steve


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## dreadnaught726 (Feb 5, 2011)

As I indicated in a previous post, I think the reason why R2 and Moebius have avoided theses boards is because of the excessive nit picking of their kits that sometimes goes on. Lets face it, there is no such thing as a perfect kit and there never will be. Be thankful that these companies have provided us with a product that is as accurate as technically possible. When was the last time you built a perfect, 100 percent accurate model?


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## Chrisisall (May 12, 2011)

dreadnaught726 said:


> When was the last time you built a perfect, 100 percent accurate model?


Actually, never. Closest I figure I've ever come in on my classic Viper, and I'm _still _discovering things I can change on my next ones.
Even with the actual molds of the original props, it can never be 'perfect.'

And that's the fun of it. The 'accurization dance' as I call it. Always in flux.:thumbsup:

"Perfection is a road, not a destination." - Chiun


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## Seaview (Feb 18, 2004)

The point is to just be civil when criticising or disagreeing; simple enough to do as adults.


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## iamweasel (Aug 14, 2000)

Seaview said:


> The point is to just be civil when criticising or disagreeing; simple enough to do as adults.


Thats exactly it, but it tends to be over the top and needlessly hammered to death over and over again.


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## SUNGOD (Jan 20, 2006)

Seaview said:


> The point is to just be civil when criticising or disagreeing; simple enough to do as adults.



Which is what happens on here 99% of the time.


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## Chrisisall (May 12, 2011)

SUNGOD said:


> Which is what happens on here 99% of the time.











I know when I've been insulted!


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## SUNGOD (Jan 20, 2006)

dreadnaught726 said:


> As I indicated in a previous post, I think the reason why R2 and Moebius have avoided theses boards is because of the excessive nit picking of their kits that sometimes goes on. Lets face it, there is no such thing as a perfect kit and there never will be. Be thankful that these companies have provided us with a product that is as accurate as technically possible. When was the last time you built a perfect, 100 percent accurate model?



It's true there's no perfect kit but that doesn't mean some aren't much better than others or there isn't room for improvement sometimes. And kit making technology is improving all the time. 

Look at some of the new kits coming out from Tamiya etc. Their new 1/32 Mustang has partially come about because reviewers complained about the trench like panel lines on the recent 1/32 tooling from Dragon, so now Tamiya's released it's new Mustang with very fine more realistic panel lines. 

Moebius and R2 have released some brilliant kits over the years but this atitude some people have that nobody should complain about anything, just shut up and say nice things all the time is blatantly ridiculous.

Some people need to develop thicker skins and stop taking things so personally. 99% of the people on here are big supporters of these model companies from what I've seen and will continue to be. It's our money after all that supports them.


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## Chrisisall (May 12, 2011)

SUNGOD said:


> It's true there's no perfect kit but that doesn't mean some aren't much better than others or there isn't room for improvement sometimes.


I was kidding BTW, SUN.:thumbsup:


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## g_xii (Mar 20, 2002)

I think there are some factors here that some of you are not taking fairly into consideration. 

First, we are (and have been) in a recession. Consequently, any model kit coming out now is not only going to have to have a reasonable chance of selling well, it also needs to be economical to manufacture to even be considered. And we're talking a product that is going to need to be sold all over the country, not just to the 30 or so people here that swear if a kit of a particular subject is made, they'll buy a case of them. Purchasing a case of models is a drop in to bucket towards the cost of design, manufacture, packaging, shipping, and then discounting to the wholesalers who put them into the hands of the hobbyshops (both bricks and mortar and online stores). That's a lot of things to think about and plan ahead for if you are a small mom and pop company! 

So they do their marketing, and figure out what might be likely to sell, and figure out if they can get a reasonable price on the licensing. I don't know much about it, but do understand that it can be a slow and frustrating process. 

Once they have the license in hand, it's time to design and prototype. From the prototype, they can then hopefully determine an approximate cost for a model kit to be manufactured and decide if it is worth doing in the first place. 

Then, they need to do the fine-tuning -- what can they live without (to save on manufacturing costs) and what do they want to add and what will it add to the manufacturing costs and eventual sales price. Will it still be affordable from the consumer end? Once they know all that.. it's time to whittle down to compromising -- figuring out what they feel they can reasonably do.

Consider the PL Jupiter 2. From what I understand from talking to various people involved in that project, they found it would be much cheaper to manufacture if they went with a less detailed interior. The logic being that the casual modeler would be (and was) quite happy with the kit they ended up with, and the high quality builder would have a good base kit to start with and really build up something nice. We've all seen what people did with that kit. Some folks did a really great buildup indeed.

However, these forums can be difficult places at the best of times. And it is mostly about the language used. You don't have to baby people, but your choice of words will often determine if your "opinion" is to really be given any weight or consideration or if you are a lunatic. Someone who sits around and directly bitches at the manufacturer that something "sucks" has no tact whatsoever. If someone said that to me, I'd ignore them (at best) or ream them back (at worst!). Nobody wants to be told disrespectfully by some ignorant loudmouthed bully of a customer that their prodcut "sucks" or is a "piece of crap". These customers feels empowered and all brave and manly, sitting safely at the end of an internet connection, taking pot shots at the manufacturer. Maybe they just don't have a dog or cat to kick, and feel the need to be offensive or something. I don't know what their problems are, but they are problems indeed. 

These companies place their own hard earned money on the line every time they decide to manufacture something. Do they deserve to be told when something doe not meet the mark? Absolutely! If you don't like something, tell them. But don't beat them with it. They'll just go away. Until you've been in their shoes, you have no right to tell any of them "what they SHOULD do" as you don't know ANY of the circumstances and just showing your own blind ignorance. The day you sit around, and gamble with YOUR mortage money gives you a bit more leeway, but there is still no need to be rude. 

There have been several times over the last few years where my wife was between jobs, and I've been at the point of "should I pay the mortgage a few weeks late and eat the late fee so I can make [product] since people are asking for it?" If people were as rude to me about my products as they have sometimes been towards the model manufacturers, I don't think I'd be willing to gamble my cash or my home for their pleasure! I'm not getting rich here! Every time I have to replace the cartriges in my laser printer, it's $500.00. Every time I need decal paper, it's $400.00. People want more J2 fusion core light systems -- I need to pay $4,000.00 up front to get them made, and it takes at least 90 days to get them manufactured. They are not cheap, and that's my fault -- I did not make enough compromises -- but they ARE worth it! 

I'm not one-sided on this, and I'm not biased, either. The majority of the people here are very decent folks and true craftsmen. People have been extraordinarly kind and supportive of my few efforts, and I really appreciate that. However, there are a few that are downright rude to some of the manufacturers, and that kind of treatment will not be tolerated any more. Not when there are other methods of communication available. You can send an email directly to their customer service desk, you can call them on the phone if you want to be more personal, hell, you can write your congressman for all I care, but know this: anyone in MY HOUSE, in MY LIVING ROOM, has one main rule to live by: BE CIVILIZED. 

If the words you are typing are going to make someone feel uncomfortable, just take it private! It's in the RULZ that we all are required to agree and adhere to in exchange for the permission of being able to use this message board service. It's really so easy it's pathetic, but there are a few folks out there who just never seem to learn, and that is why a lot of the manufacturers do not bother with all these forums. Would you in their shoes? I think not.

Wow -- quite a soap box speech from me! I'll let you get back to your regular programming now.... 

--Henry


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## dreadnaught726 (Feb 5, 2011)

Once again, very well said Seaview. This is a hobby not one's lifeblood and as such,should be fun. When we start taking things personnaly, then it is no longer fun. In general I hate critics and the only one I ever listen to is myself. Accordingly I try not to force my own criticisms on anyone else. Look, given the decline of this hobby in recent years, lets be thankful for companies like R2 and Moebius for keeping the dream alive


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## Chrisisall (May 12, 2011)

Great post^


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## steve123 (Feb 9, 2009)

Henry!! I thought you committed Suppuku..

Glad you are still here..
The new Mod was pretty cool though..









Steve


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## LGFugate (Sep 11, 2000)

Sungod,

I never said we can't disagree with what the model companies are doing. My point, as Henry said, is to do it with respect. Don't like the way they are detailing a certain kit? No problem! Tell them about it. Just be respectful. Imagine you are the model company rep. How would you like people to tell you about problems they perceive with your product? Would you want them to tell you it sucks, is a load of crap, etc., or would you rather have some constructive criticism, like "the panel lines look too large", or "Those nacelles are not at the right angle to the secondary hull." I'd much rather hear details of what's seen as incorrect, with suggestions to fix it if possible. If I disagree with your proposal, I need to tell you that with respect, not "you're full of crap".

No sugar, just a little respect.

Larry


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## SUNGOD (Jan 20, 2006)

LGFugate said:


> Sungod,
> 
> I never said we can't disagree with what the model companies are doing. My point, as Henry said, is to do it with respect. Don't like the way they are detailing a certain kit? No problem! Tell them about it. Just be respectful. Imagine you are the model company rep. How would you like people to tell you about problems they perceive with your product? Would you want them to tell you it sucks, is a load of crap, etc., or would you rather have some constructive criticism, like "the panel lines look too large", or "Those nacelles are not at the right angle to the secondary hull." I'd much rather hear details of what's seen as incorrect, with suggestions to fix it if possible. If I disagree with your proposal, I need to tell you that with respect, not "you're full of crap".
> 
> ...




Ok, can somebody show me where people have said these things and not shown any respect?


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## g_xii (Mar 20, 2002)

SUNGOD said:


> Ok, can somebody show me where people have said these things and not shown any respect?


It happens here all the time. What do you think I am making this up? I don't keep a log of all the garbage. Spend a little time searching for it if you don't believe me and the others here. When these little "blow-ups" happen, they happen quickly and, if possible, taken care of quickly. It's possible that you have not seen it with your own eyes, but it does indeed happen.

Bottom line, if it gets abusive, I delete it. If it is merely annoying, I close (lock) the thread to halt it in it's tracks. 

Anyone that is going to behave like a jerk here will be asked to leave and/or shown the door. And I don't mean just towards the model manufacturers. Anyone lacking common courtesy will be shown the door as well. 

I think the best thing you can do at this point is READ THE RULZ at the top of the page and you'll never have to worry about it as long as you stay inside the suggested guidlines.

--Henry


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## Chrisisall (May 12, 2011)

g_xii said:


> Anyone that is going to behave like a jerk here will be asked to leave and/or shown the door.


As it should be, IMHO. :thumbsup:


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## g_xii (Mar 20, 2002)

Yeah -- it's not like we all have to swap spit or anything. Just simply watch what you post! 

Like if your MOM was in the room!! 

--H


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## SUNGOD (Jan 20, 2006)

g_xii said:


> It happens here all the time. What do you think I am making this up? I don't keep a log of all the garbage. Spend a little time searching for it if you don't believe me and the others here. When these little "blow-ups" happen, they happen quickly and, if possible, taken care of quickly. It's possible that you have not seen it with your own eyes, but it does indeed happen.
> 
> Bottom line, if it gets abusive, I delete it. If it is merely annoying, I close (lock) the thread to halt it in it's tracks.
> 
> ...







Well I'm talking about in regards to Moebius. Apart from someone talking about suing (which was stupid) I haven't seen any bad comments directed at them.

All I've seen is people voicing their hopes, wants, likes or dislikes in a normal polite way.


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## g_xii (Mar 20, 2002)

SUNGOD said:


> Well I'm talking about in regards to Moebius. Apart from someone talking about suing (which was stupid) I haven't seen any bad comments directed at them.
> 
> All I've seen is people voicing their hopes, wants, likes or dislikes in a normal polite way.


What do you think caused Moebius to stop hanging out here? And you don't see much of Polar Lights hanging about the forums either -- or a lot of the others!

--H


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## SUNGOD (Jan 20, 2006)

g_xii said:


> What do you think caused Moebius to stop hanging out here? And you don't see much of Polar Lights hanging about the forums either -- or a lot of the others!
> 
> --H




If you're talking about the clipper thread I saw one silly (non abusive) throwaway comment but the rest was just people talking about accuracy etc (which is perfectly acceptable).......I don't remember any bad abusive comments.


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## g_xii (Mar 20, 2002)

SUNGOD said:


> If you're talking about the clipper thread I saw one silly (non abusive) throwaway comment but the rest was just people talking about accuracy etc (which is perfectly acceptable).......I don't remember any bad abusive comments.


Who cares? I'm not going to search through pages and pages of forums just to prove a point to you. I don't have the time or the inclination! 

How about you just consider all of this a "from this point on" starting point? What's done is done, time to move on!

--Henry


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## SUNGOD (Jan 20, 2006)

g_xii said:


> Who cares? I'm not going to search through pages and pages of forums just to prove a point to you. I don't have the time or the inclination!
> 
> How about you just consider all of this a "from this point on" starting point? What's done is done, time to move on!
> 
> --Henry




No problem g_xii. I'm sure everyone will agree...healthy discussion = good.......abusive comments = bad.


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## g_xii (Mar 20, 2002)

And this entire thread is far beyond it's "use by" date... locked!


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