# Painting and priming the refit... HELP



## jimmy1701 (May 8, 2005)

OK I got the saucer primed and ready, and had laid down the first coat of flat white after waiting 2 or so hours for the primer to dry, The white went on no problem whatsoever. However this is where the nightmare begins. I had spent around 2 hours making masks for the aztec template and was ready to tape the pattern onto the saucer when all of a sudden i was applying the tape the paint started peeling as if there was air bubbles or something beneath it. I have just been through a day of it sofar and am hoping I can salvage something from this mess as I had a perfect white finish to the saucer. luckyly it was the upper saucer and I hope to respray it tomoro

So what did I do wrong? did I not give the paint enough time to dry or what. Im thinking it was the primer cuse when I overlayed the white on top of it, It seemed a slight bit stiky to the touch after about an hour or so of drying?

Any advice on this would be greatly appreciated I just hope I didnt ruin this kit.


----------



## Scott Hasty (Jul 10, 2003)

What type of paint are you using? If both primer and top coat were enamels, you may not have waited long enough to put the top coat on. With enamels, you have to put the second coat on reletively quickly [after the previous coat]. If you don't do this, then you have to wait for it to completely dry. I can't remember the exact timeframes, but it's like second coat within 15 minutes or after several days.

Scottie


----------



## jimmy1701 (May 8, 2005)

The primer was just regular humbrol primaer so i would assume its enamel paint. the white spray was enamel paint which was quick dry as its labelled on the tin. I think what I might do is sand the blisterd areas with wet and dry and re-apply primer in those spots and the re-apply the white paint afew hours later. God help me when I start aztecing this thing.


----------



## RossW (Jan 12, 2000)

Uh, if a spray can says 'Quick Dry' then it's probably lacquer paint, which may have reacted with the enamel primer.


----------



## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

It could be a couple of things. The primer probably wasn't anywhere near dry when you applied the white paint. Or, possibly the white paint was a hotter base than the primer and caused it to craze and lift.

Patience is really a virtue when it comes to painting this stuff, especially if you are using lacquers or enamels. Allow plenty of time for things to dry between primer and topcoats.

Other things could be moisture, mold release residue on the plastic, etc.

What type of paint were you using? Spray can or airbrush?


----------



## jimmy1701 (May 8, 2005)

Both were aerosol spray cans I cant afford a airbrush for the life of me at the moment, Both cans were from humbrol seeing they make models i tought i would get that brand. Both of the aerosols were also enamel based.

I rinsed the parts thorughly. I think maybe it was the primer wasnt dry enough cuse what i noticed was when the white coated air bubble bust the grey primer was a little tacky to the touch. I might just sand the whole upper saucer and redo the whole thing again.


----------



## lonfan (Feb 11, 2001)

Excuse me Jimmy- Since you brought it up (BTW I hope all is well with your Refit) I Buy ALL my Sprays from Wal-Mart I buy these Blue Cans of the 88 Cent Stuff. To Be Honest I don't know The Difference between Lacquers or Enamels BUT I do ONLY buy the more Expensive Krylon "Matte Finish" I've tryed the Wal Mart "Clear Coat" and It was NOT a Flat Finish, More of a Semi- Gloss,Well my question is this, I was Finished Painting a Screamin' Lon Chaney Vampire (he's Vinyl) and when I Primed him the Paint Remained Tacky for DAYS Finally I had an Idea I finally Got so Impatient I Tried Just Sealing the Still Tacky Primer with A Couple of Coats of Matte Finish, Long Story Short IT WORKED BUT then ANY Flat Color I applied Suddenly became Shiny as Glass! AGGRAH! I tried Repainting and btw it's ONLY in certin Areas and I did Wash ALL the Pieces Thourghly with a Mild Dish Stuff First. So what does that Sound Like? It's weird
JOHN/LONFAN


----------



## MartinHatfield (Apr 11, 2004)

NEVER apply enamels or any oil based paints to a vinyl model. It does not bond well with the vinyl. 

If you do spray enamel or laquer onto a vinyl kit, give it a week to dry before doing anything else to the model.


----------



## jimmy1701 (May 8, 2005)

Thats the only thing i HATE about modelling not the painting but the uncertainty of the drying times normally I wouldnt have applied the primer then applied the top coat little more than an hour later, Im still used to being under pressure from work and getting in early I forgot I was on holidays this week. lol. I think its the primer tho I just didnt allow enough time for the stuff to dry and the white top coat is peeling off like a lepers skin thanks to my impatientience. D'OH

I'll re-apply it all tomoro AGAIN, OH by the way, masking tape? will that do anything to the surface when its painted? Ive my masks done for the aztec and need to stik em on with some small amounts of tape, this wont peel the paint of will it? any alternatives that will be safer that you can recomend wud also be appreciated.


----------



## Dave Metzner (Jan 1, 1970)

Jimmy,
If both cans are Humbrol, then they should both be the same formula and should be compatible. 
I'd wet sand the whole part to make sure that I got any and all loose paint off before re applying the white.
Then I'd give the part a couple days to dry before re-masking.

I'd also make sure that I was using a "Low Tack" masking tape when I started back in to mask the pattern on the part.

If you can find a shop or other source for Tamiya masking tape, I would strongly recommend that you use it for your masking. It is designed for use by plastic modellers, and is a low-tack tape.

I'd guess you can find it at Hannants, probably at several other sources in Great Britain

Good Luck!
Dave


----------



## omnimodel (Oct 9, 2004)

Having been without an airbrush for far too long myself, I can feel your pain. However, you can get a very basic external mix airbrush for around $15. Granted, it will not have superfine adjustments, and the trigger will leak air before long, but it will get the job done. Walmart even sells a kit by Testors that comes with paint, a can of propellant, and sprayer for under $10.

I just mention this because much of the aggrevations mentioned in this thread can be cured by using acrylics. They are not toxic, and since the thinning solvent is alcohol based, it dries extremely fast. Applying subsequent coats can usually be done in a couple of hours, and you won't have to deal with the inevitable wrinkling / bubbling combinations that come come from mixing enamels with other kinds of paints.

And best of all, if you make a mistake or want to remove the paint, all it takes is a little rubbing alcohol.


----------



## BatToys (Feb 4, 2002)

Before you did any painting, did you wash the kit in soap and water to remove oily mold residue?

Then dry it with a hair blower as wiping it with a cloth will create static electricity attracting dust.


----------



## Prosta (Mar 23, 2005)

Will you get a better finish using a primer & a flat white coat rather then just using a white primer as your base?

Was going to use an auto white primer from Halfords


----------



## chunkeymonkey (May 4, 2004)

Prosta said:


> Will you get a better finish using a primer & a flat white coat rather then just using a white primer as your base?
> 
> Was going to use an auto white primer from Halfords


i have used the same paints prosta, i think that for this kit (externally) i will use grey primer first, let dry for a couple of days, wet sand (3000-4000 micromesh), clean/dry and then spary with white primer/flat white and repaet wet sand if required. then after that layer up the rest of the paint job.

found some really fine pearlescent white acrylic paint which i will thin down and experiment on the spare lower hull piece.


----------



## jimmy1701 (May 8, 2005)

Sware to god, lol for once I followed the directions because it was the enterprise -a and washed the kit with the directions given. Ive re-sprayed the gaps and it seems to be working out fine now however I will need afew more days cuse the coats have to build up where the rest of the hull was unaffected.


----------



## beck (Oct 22, 2003)

i always use Krylon sandable grey primer . best stuff bar none ! and always give it 24 hrs to cure ( whatever primer you use ) before doing anything else .
hb


----------



## jimmy1701 (May 8, 2005)

Funny you say that, cuse when those blisters bust last night on the saucer hull the primer was really cold and somewhat sticky so I should have used the advice of simple "Patience" LOL. I wont get to aztec anything today because of my lack of it yesterday sole have to wait till tomoro. On the other hand I received my episode 3 kits today and they are allready built. although they are only snap kits and are pre-painted they were a great piece of fun to spend afew hours with. I also got the tar destroyer from episode although not as big as its rival the ent-a it looks extremely well detailed for such a medium sized kit. Good thing was I received free paints glue an even a brush with it.


----------



## Mike1967 (May 16, 2005)

One thought, though it may be late in the thread for this, but goes along the lines of what *chunkeymonkey* said above in sanding the primer and/or layers of paint. I've on some models after the first cleaning of the surfaces sand them so that the paints have something to adhere to, then rince or clean again. Granted one has to watch out for not sanding down the surface details that are needed.


----------



## jimmy1701 (May 8, 2005)

Yeah that happened me on a build of a nemisis phaser from roddenberry.com I had sanded down like in total around 8 layers of primer and some top coat to get the correct finish. Ended up sanding the power buttons to noting at the end tho.... thank god for sheet stryene LOL


----------



## beck (Oct 22, 2003)

Mike , that's a good tip . ya can use a pretty fine grit for this and it just takes a light sanding to achieve . 
when sanding off paint sometimes one does have to put the elbow grease to it though . and ya might have to settle for having to re create some detail .
hb


----------



## jimmy1701 (May 8, 2005)

know exactly what you mean im going to have to scribe in afew hull lines on the kit, I did however get some aztecing done today and surprisingly all i did was add a heavy primer then 3 very light coats of flat white, this was with the masks I made on of course, surprisingly when I removed the masks I got sorta a twotone grey and white effect which reminded me of the wrath of khan so I left it like that and might add a light VERY LIGHT gloss coat and see how it looks overall after being set back a couple of days Im pleased with the time im making back up on the kit cuse I want to get this thing lit and assembled as soon as I can without comprimisng the effort I put into the kit..


----------



## Doggy (Jan 29, 2000)

You know, it occurs to me as I read all these posts about primer, that I've never used it in my life. I've been modelling for about ten years and I've always just used Testors Navy Agressor Grey enamel from a spray can as my primer. Adheres perfectly and acrylics bite into it very well.

What are the specific differences between primer and good ole enamel paint, 'cos I've sure never been punished for not using it.

D.


----------



## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

There's no hard rule about using primers. I haven't used it on every model, either.

Primers usually provide a neutral, uniform base for topcoats; are sometimes thicker than normal paint for aid in filling minute surface imperfections and is great for showing flaws where a lot of filling and sanding have been done. A good foundation.

Talk to twenty different modelers and you'll hear twenty different preferred primers and uses of primers.


----------



## chunkeymonkey (May 4, 2004)

Doggy said:


> You know, it occurs to me as I read all these posts about primer, that I've never used it in my life. I've been modelling for about ten years and I've always just used Testors Navy Agressor Grey enamel from a spray can as my primer. Adheres perfectly and acrylics bite into it very well.
> 
> What are the specific differences between primer and good ole enamel paint, 'cos I've sure never been punished for not using it.
> 
> D.



basically you are using your testors spray paint as your primer, so you have always primed your models. :thumbsup: 

i just use halfords (uk) grey/black primer cos it's cheaper for me and gives me the result i need. the last time i checked i believe the primer i use is enamel.

i just prep the surface, primer and then let it dry/harden in the airing cupboard for a couple of day until it is rock hard.


----------



## Flux Chiller (May 2, 2005)

I use primers where I have imperfections to resolve, filler to cover, etc. etc.
Where this isn't required Halford's spray cans (one pack acrylic) adhere straight off - for instance where I've sprayed a Tamiya car body - no need for a primer -hit it straight with the top coat (sometimes adding a lacquer later if metallic). The quality of the plastic A class surface doesn't need a primer in this case, and the results have always been staggering, with levels of gloss I'd expect off the line...I hear there are a lot of difficult gaps on the refit though, so I'll be getting some new sandpaper stocks in!


----------



## Dave Metzner (Jan 1, 1970)

In all my years building plastic kits I have almost never used primer on styrene kits.
I only use primer if I intend to paint styrene with lacquer, then I use a non- penetrating light gray primer to seal the styrene off against the lacquer paint.

I've built plastic aircraft for over 40 years and never bothered to prime any of them, most of the car models I've built over the years wear coats of testors hobby paints applied right to the naked plastic.

For resin and white metal figure kits, however I always give them a coat of gray Dupli-Color primer. With white metal it is absolutely critical because enamels won't stick to bare metal. And resin figures seem to hold paint better after a coat of primer as well.

If I have something that will be light colored and it has a ton of filler in it, I generally give it a coat or two of primer to give a uniform base color for the finished color. But I try to avoid priming plastic models if un necessary.

Dave


----------



## Ignatz (Jun 20, 2000)

I like to prime all my kits. IT'S FUN!


----------



## Flux Chiller (May 2, 2005)

Dave Metzner said:


> I only use primer if I intend to paint styrene with lacquer, then I use a non- penetrating light gray primer to seal the styrene off against the lacquer paint.
> 
> I've built plastic aircraft for over 40 years and never bothered to prime any of them, most of the car models I've built over the years wear coats of testors hobby paints applied right to the naked plastic.
> 
> Dave


Yes, completely agree Dave...by the way when I referred to 'lacquer' I was referring to the acrylic clear coat out of the spray-can I get here in UK- I suspect you are referring to Cellulose based lacquer paint? 
In this respect the primer is a barrier coat, as also on the metal kits? 

The Halfords spraycan high build primer (usually yellow) has been a fruitful tool over the years. Many a resin kit has been brought into line with it, also model boat hulls where I've been struggling to get a real smoothed out form, but it is a last resort as you wave goodbye to the detail...


----------



## Tordoc (Apr 27, 2003)

Can anyone tell me where to get Krylon Sandable Primer in Toronto. Home Depot and Canadian Tire only have Tremclad. Anyone have any experience with the Tremclad?

Ken


----------



## Brent Gair (Jun 26, 1999)

"Can anyone tell me where to get Krylon Sandable Primer in Toronto. Home Depot and Canadian Tire only have Tremclad."

If you have a Canadian Tire store, go to the automotive section and buy a can of MOTOMASTER SCRATCH FILLER AND PRIMER 47-1020-6.

I use it to prime everything. I'm not kidding...EVERYTHING. It's great stuff. I use it on virtually all of my plastic models (like the Flying Sub in the spray paint thread here). I use it on wood models (check my Beyond the Stars thread on the movies BB). I use it on resin. Hey, I even use it on my car.


----------



## Tordoc (Apr 27, 2003)

I'll try the Motomaster.

What about vinyl? I have a Halcyon Chestburster and I don'y know what to prime it with. The vinyl is soft and I need something flexible.

Ken


----------



## Brent Gair (Jun 26, 1999)

Yes!

This guy here is the 16" Masudaya Lost In Space robot and he's all vinyl:


----------

