# On time machines, nostalgia, and 'you can't go back'



## frankenstyrene (Oct 5, 2006)

For the longest time I'd fantasized of going back to my childhood and reliving all those warm, fond (if somewhat dim) memories of things '70s. Particularly monster kits, figures and rubber jiggly monsters at Kresge's; the busted Penn Plax Creature taped to my handlebars; genuinely Classic Coke; school friends; and most vividly, those cool Halloween evenings of crunching leaves, hot breath condensing behind a fluorescent yellow Ben Cooper Frankenstein mask, and "Chilling, Thrilling Sounds" blaring from hi-fi speakers lodged in every third front porch window along my street. That was the fantasy, a big part of it anyway.

But then, driving to work the other morning, it dawned on me that even if such a trip were possible, the goal would be impossible and I'd regret ever taking the trip.

I'm convinced of this for the simple reason that nostalgia - the main reason we're all here, and there's nothing wrong with that - lies not so much in the good memories we have, but in the good feelings we've since attached to those memories. That may seem like an obvious fact to you but it honestly never occured to me before Monday morning.

Were you and I to go back to that one idyllic, cherrypicked period of our childhoods - mine is around the fall of '73 - we could go back only one of two ways: with the mind of the child we were then, or with the mind of the grownups we are now.

If we went back with the mind of the children we were, it seems to me that we'd have no more appreciation of the things we now miss - or _think_ we miss - than we had then. We'd have no decades' frame of reference to cause us to be anything other than what we were then: kids. And kids, being perfect creatures of the moment, appreciate little, nor for very long. We would not have the melancholy separation of years which now casts those days in such an artificially soft light. The sense of rediscovery (what I really miss) would be lost on my child-mind; the old plastic friends I've dreamed of revisiting would mean no more to me than they probably meant the first time around. Those who won't learn from history repeat it; I would repeat history and learn nothing.

If, on the other hand, we went back with the minds of the adults we now are, the appreciation we'd have for the things we now miss could not even exist. A deep, crucial element of our childhood nostalgia is that constantly renewed 'oh wow' factor that only children possess. That naturally would be gone. We'd be researchers, intellectual curiosity seekers, museum patrons, grinning and sighing at frequent "oh, I'd forgotten that!" moments. But the sheer wonder of it all - which lies at the heart of the very thing we want to recapture - is longer be in us; we're not kids anymore, after all (sometimes it actually hurts to have to say that). 

Moreover, I have no doubt I'd quickly become distracted by period cars, Watergate, catching _The Exorcist_ on opening night, the wind-down of Viet Nam...annoyed by the rampant pollution and roadside litter of those days, jarred by the presence of the very same dirt, dog waste and human rudeness, shocked because I could have sworn the sky was bluer back then. I cannot imagine myself as glowingly, happily absorbed with the toys and TV and holidays and sunny days in the yard that my old memories have long revolved around. A trip back would reveal my favorite childhood moments to be far more mundane and magic-less than I want them to have been; proving that the more things changed, the more they really did stay the same after all. My fond, old memories - as warped and exaggerated by time as they no doubt are - would be replaced by very concrete and accurate but drab and disappointing ones. Can't go back? We already know that. But we should probably be glad we can't...the past is the proverbial sleeping dog. 

Well...unless we were able to bring back a U-Haul full of stuff with us, that is. That would be a whole other time-travel story and you would all be bowing before me as eebay's near-millionaire King of Auroraria and Other Ultra-Rare Seventies Stuff. :dude:


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

Dude.....that was like..deep...like wow ...but I dig it! and with that I'll lay this down on ya hip and open minded like chaps who are still free. Oh yeah and Hi and welcome to the HobbyTalk boards! :wave: 



*Remarkable Obituary* ​*
*Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend,​Mr. Common Sense.
Mr. Sense had been with us for many years.​No one knows for sure how old
he was since his birth records were long ago ​lost in bureaucratic red tape.​
He will be remembered as having cultivated​such value lessons as knowing
when to come in out of the rain,​why the early bird gets the worm and
that life isn't always fair.​​Common Sense lived by simple,​sound financial policies​(don't spend more than you earn)​and reliable Parenting strategies​(adults, not kids, are in charge).

His health began to rapidly deteriorate ​when well intentioned but
overbearing regulations were set in place. ​​Reports of a six-year-old
boy charged with sexual harassment​for kissing a classmate;​​teens suspended from school for using​mouthwash after lunch;​​and a teacher fired for reprimanding an​unruly student,​only worsened his condition.

Mr. Sense declined even further when ​schools were required to get parental consent​to administer aspirin to a student;​but, could not inform the parents when a student​became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion.

Finally, Common Sense lost the will to live ​as the Ten Commandments became contraband;​churches became businesses;​and criminals received better treatment​than their victims.

Common Sense finally gave up the ghost​after a woman failed to realize that a​steaming cup of coffee was hot,​she spilled a bit in her lap,
and was awarded a huge financial settlement. 

Common Sense was preceded in death by his parents, Truth and Trust, his wife, Discretion;​his daughter, Responsibility;​and his son, Reason.

He is survived by two stepbrothers;​My Rights and Ima Whiner.
Not many attended his funeral because​so few realized he was gone.

If you still remember him,​pass this on;​if not, join the majority and do nothing.​


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## the Dabbler (Feb 17, 2005)

Like man, you cats are layin' down some heavy tracks !


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## ilbasso (Jun 7, 2006)

I was thinking about places I used to play in 1962, when I was 6 years old in North Carolina. There was a small junkyard near my house and I used to sit in some of the wrecked cars and pretend to drive them. I'm sure they were full of broken glass and jagged rusty metal.

And then there was this overhang along a small stream where I had my own little "cave". I used to see copperheads and water moccasins around there.

And who could forget riding your bike along behind the DDT truck as it fogged for mosquitos, getting a good lung full of that sweet smelling cloud?

Maube I should be thankful I made it to adulthood. I'd never go near any of those places now. But I wouldn't have traded those experiences for anything.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

You guys gotta post shorter stuff, I got four bboards to visit before my boss comes in!


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## origAurora buyer (Jan 12, 1999)

"....these are the 'good old days'...."

OAB


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

The perfect year - 1964: 8 years-old. Mom and Dad, happy, young, alive. Aurora Monster Models! The Beatles. G.I. Joe. The Man From U.N.C.L.E. Combat! Mom's spaghetti. Famous Monsters of Filmland. DC Comics. Bazooka Bubble Gum. Shock Theater! Marvel Comics. Mad Magazine. Oreos. Mr. Magoo's Christmas Carol. Halloween. 7 Faces of Dr. Lao. Chef Boyardee Pizza. Little Giants. Johnny Seven! Big Caesar. Jason and The Argonauts. _More_ _Aurora Monster Models!_ Security, Comfort, Love, Bliss.


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

Far Out!


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## Y3a (Jan 18, 2001)

Ah, yes. That old desire to go back and do it again, knowing then what we know now. The question is when would you like to go back? What time of your life. NOT the very beginning, but perhaps around 5 years old? for me that would be 1959. The time of the beatniks, Bomb shelters like our neighbor had in his backyard. All my friends I had grown with. Johnny, the Ice Cream man who had the same route for 11 years. Going down to see trains just a few blocks away with my dad after he got home from work. Watching Romper Room, Popeye cartoons, Capt. Kangaroo, Beany & Cecil, Hula Hoops. I remember seeing my grandparents (both sets) most every Sunday. I remember kindegarten, Measles, Dentists, Haircuts, learning to ride a bike, and saying goodbye to friends who moved away. I remember 1st grade, and getting used to the schedule, and then it snowed, and then Christmastime when I got back in the old schedule, so it was even HARDER after January 1. I remember second grade when NASA did a presentation of what they had plans to do, and poured some liquid oxygen into the air and it vanished! I rememer report cards, and Charlottes Web, Stewart Little, and the other stories our teacher would read to us. I remember the Submarine model displayed in the Library. I remember getting baby teeth pulled out so I could wait for the tooth fairy!. I remember the Easter Bunny, and Santa too! I remember Tops Drive-in's and Food Fair grocery stores. I remember When the stores were closed on Sundays. I remember Sledding down the hills and making snowmmen. I remember the cookouts, and crappy little vacuform Halloween masks that came with those cheap costumes. The neighbors across the street would dress up and hand out cupcakes, had witches brew(dry Ice) and played scary music from their high-fi!. The next year my mom made a gigantic spider web that draped from the gutter to the plants around our front door. I remember when WE moved, and the house hunting I had to go on with my folks. 

For me, I'd go back to 1960, and start over with what I know now!


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## Frankie Boy (Feb 28, 2002)

I dig thinking about s*** like this! But it always raises some really difficult questions. If we could, there's only one truly satisfactory way to go back in time and (re)visit our past - if it is, in fact, OUR past we want to revisit. 
If we went back as a kid, and had the mind of a kid to participate in our own past as a kid, the "magic" of the moment would be lost on us (again) - as frankenstyrene already pointed out - because the magic only really becomes apparent from the perspective of time.
If we went back as a kid, but with an adult mind to then participate in our own past with our physicality disconnected from our psychology as it were, our resulting behaviour would undoubtedly present some problems and the "magic" would either be spoiled or non-existent - as fluke and ilbasso have pointed out (in so many words) - because the magic is in large part an aspect of the relative blissful ignorance of youth.
No, I think the only way to (emotionally) satisfactorily go back in time would be to do so as an inconspicuous fly on the wall. That way we could be in the physical reality of the past to observe, cherish, and "inhale" the details of our youth, to observe our intact innocent selves participating in it, while at the same time, from the vantage point of maturity, further distill the ambrosia of those childood experiences. 
As the songwriter Paul Williams once wrote in a song "you can get back to the place but not the time". And time, we would be wise to remember, is a conceptual construct.


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## Y3a (Jan 18, 2001)

Time - it's what keeps everything from happening at once!


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## beck (Oct 22, 2003)

Y3a ,lol , time is what i wish i had here at work to keep everything from happening at once . 
hb


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## frankenstyrene (Oct 5, 2006)

the Dabbler said:


> Like man, you cats are layin' down some heavy tracks !


It's the 45 minute drive to work I have and the mix of cold medicines in my brain as I lay flat on my back typing it. Blame them.  

Fluke: Two small things. That kid - or one like him - was busted for DRINKING mouthwash and bragging about it (at least one bonehead pulled that stunt), and many schools, including mine, are now requiring not mere parental but DOCTOR'S permission to take aspirin (lest there be any remote but possible med clashing between Tylenol and the many tranks, speeds and psychotropics schoolkids are on these days). Legalities, y'know. Apart from that, the obit is gold, consider it passed on.

Frankie Boy:


> No, I think the only way to (emotionally) satisfactorily go back in time would be to do so as an inconspicuous fly on the wall. That way we could be in the physical reality of the past to observe, cherish, and "inhale" the details of our youth, to observe our intact innocent selves participating in it, while at the same time, from the vantage point of maturity, further distill the ambrosia of those childood experiences.


Hadn't considered that and it would be the best option, and beautifully put. Might it be horribly sad, tho? My option B could be as well, I now see (can't stop thinking about Bill Murray seeing his mom again in SCROOGED  ).


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

Zorro said:


> The perfect year - 1964: 8 years-old. Mom and Dad, happy, young, alive. Aurora Monster Models! The Beatles. G.I. Joe. The Man From U.N.C.L.E. Combat! Mom's spaghetti. Famous Monsters of Filmland. DC Comics. Sugar Daddys. Shock Theater! Marvel Comics. Mad Magazine. Oreos. Mr. Magoo's Christmas Carol. Halloween. 7 Faces of Dr. Lao. Popcorn. Little Giants. Johnny 7! Big Caesar. Jason and The Argonauts. _More_ _Aurora Monster Models!_ Security, Comfort, Love, Bliss.


Not to mention race riots in Harlem, the Good Friday Earthquake, martial law in Seoul, the Gulf of Tonkin attacks, race riots in Philadelphia, sit-ins in Berkeley, and the escalation of bombing in North VietNam.


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

Carson Dyle said:


> Not to mention race riots in Harlem, the Good Friday Earthquake, martial law in Seoul, the Gulf of Tonkin attacks, race riots in Philadelphia, sit-ins in Berkeley, and the escalation of bombing in North VietNam.


I didn't know about _none_ of that stuff _then_.


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

Okay, but you also forgot to mention "Rudolph the Red-nosed Reindeer."


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## Rebel Rocker (Jan 26, 2000)

Some very good points being posted by all. I sometimes feel sorry for today's youth. In looking at the recent and current global situations, as well as the lifestyle in small town America today, and comparing it to when most of us grew up.......doesn't it seem like they're missing out on SOOOOOOO much. It seems to me that the youth of today is so immersed in video and computer games that.....ehhh, I'm probably just sounding like the stereotypical complaining old man, huh?

All I know is, when we were kids, during the summers, we were out of the house by 7AM, off on our bikes (with baseball cards in the spokes!) to the ball field, or the pool, or to friends. We didn't go home til Mom yelled for dinner! And WE WERE SAFE!!! Nowadays, you let your kid out of your sight at your own peril!

When's the last time you saw kids building a fort? Or a go-kart? Or a model, for that matter?

And another thing, when we did something wrong, we got spanked! AND WE KNEW NOT TO DO IT AGAIN!!! Kids today figure they have all the power! And thanks to a lot of mamby-pamby, PC-ers, to a certain extent, they DO!! Nowadays kids do what they want, and, for the most part, disrespect authority. Now we have to wait for them to kill somebody for a judge to sentence them to a twentyfive year 'time out'!!

But, to get back on topic, for me, I would go back to February of '64, and get that feeling again of seeing the Beatles for the first time on Sulivan!! It was shortly after that that my Dad brought home my first model kit, too!! Frankenstein. 

But, I agree with all the others who say, to go back as you were, would mean nothing. It is definitely the passage of time that makes the memories feel so good!!

GREAT THREAD!!

Wayne


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

Yes....there was some heavy stuff going on in the U.S. & some parts of the the world, major changes were taking place in tha sixties and seventies.....BUT! as younger kids and adults in our safe suburban or rural towns....in general people were a lot more happy and content. Kids were not killing each other in schools, sure there was always bullies but no one was ever killed or knifed. Man I miss the 70's....even early to mid eighties wasn't so bad.....then the disco, druged out ME ME ME generation started squeezing out todays selfish, uncaring, rude punks who drive up and down our streets with their stupid boom boom audio systems while I'm trying to relax after a day at work and eat dinner or watch TV with my family or build a model IN MY OWN HOME!  .....Its not the kids....its thier rotten parents fault for not having the right stuff to raise decent children....the children are only products of their invironment....in 'most' cases....for some...its bad wiring.

OOOPS! sorry....I got carried away 'again'.


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

fluke said:


> as younger kids and adults in our safe suburban or rural towns....in general people were a lot more happy and content. Kids were not killing each other in schools, sure there was always bullies but no one was ever killed or knifed.


Tell that to a black kid growing up in Mississippi or Alabama circa 1960, or a Puerto-Rican kid coming of age in NYC around the same time. 

Computer games have replaced comicbooks and TV shows. Ipod has replaced the hi-fi. Rap has replaced Elvis. Kids still ride bikes and skateboards (at least in my neighborhood), "punks" have been cruising the streets since the early 50's, and adults have been bitching about all of the above since the end of WW II.

What has changed dramatically in recent years is the way information is controlled and distributed. Kids and adults alike are exposed to much more "content" today than ever before, but owing to the dynamics of the new technology kids in particular are able to control the flow of that content in a way they never could before. 

Even so, I live in a neighborhood brimming with children, and I can assure you they still play basketball in the driveway, touch-football in the back yard, and Monopoly in the den. And yes, they still get the occasional spanking (at least in my home they do).

Every generation romanticizes the past (especially after they turn 40), but contrary to what some may say I submit America in the early 21st century is still a reasonably fun, safe, comfy place to come of age. And just like us, I suspect our kids will wind up with the memories to prove it.

Will those memories include gluing little bits of plastic together with toxic chemicals? Sadly, the answer is probably no.


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## Mark McGovern (Apr 25, 1999)

Well of course you can't go home again. Still, every once in a while at work I get a whiff of "Auroma" - the particular mold release agent that you could always smell when you opened a fresh Aurora model kit. That _smell _takes me back to my childhood more vividly than even the reproduction box art we've been seeing, thanks in no small part to Polar Lights.

Plastic modeling may be in a decline at present but when I think of models that were found in Egyptian tombs, I can't believe that the yen to own something by building it in miniature has passed away quite yet. Certainly there is a greater effort ongoing within the industry to recruit young modelers than there was when most of us got started. And we all had plenty of other things to compete with modeling - they just didn't have LCD screens attached to them then.

Call me a starry-eyed optimist, but when Polar Lights came along to reissue models that I never thought I would see again I realized that nothing was impossible. So I refuse to write the hobby off before I see the IPMS' death notice in the paper. Oh, and to paraphrase Woody Allen, I don't think Common Sense has died - he's just an underachiever.

Have a great weekend, everybody. Anybody here going to the IPMS show in Dayton, OH on Saturday?


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

Mark McGovern said:


> Plastic modeling may be in a decline at present but when I think of models that were found in Egyptian tombs, I can't believe that the yen to own something by building it in miniature has passed away quite yet.


I don't think it has either. I never meant to suggest the hobby was "dead;" simply that it had seen a drastic decline in popularity amongst young people. 

Once upon a time (way back in the twentieth century) building plastic model kits was a right of passage for adolescent boys. Like it or not, those days are over.

BTW, I know what you mean about the sense of smell being a powerful memory inducer. It never ceases to amaze me how a fleeting whiff of a certain chemical or type of plastic can prompt such vivid recollections of my childhood.

Ah, nostalgia... where would we middle-aged glue-heads be without it?


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## john guard (Dec 31, 2001)

i hear alot of you guys talking about what you got as kids. GI JOE, Aurora models, all the great stuff that was out in those days. well, i dont wanna be a downer but let me tell you about how i saw those days. first off all, i was in a large family with 6 kids, mom worked nights. i had an alcoholic father but he tried his best because we were poor (at one time on food stamps). so when i would watch tv or read comics, i was amazed at the quanity of great toys and models. man, i wanted a Johnny 7 rifle, hot wheels, Gi Joe, more comics and most of all Aurora models of Cap, Batman, Lost inSpace and all the rest. but in my childhood, all i could do was wish. i hadfriends that had lot of the "classic toys" you guys talk about. but all i could do was be envious.
my dad did by us, meaning four brothers, 1 Gi Joe. can you imagine 1 Gi Joe played with by 4 kids? my older brother got a Aurora Godzilla because at the time he was the best at model building. i still have that Godzilla as a reminder of what i an fortunate to have now. if i wanted a space capsule for Gi Joe, i made it out of cardboard. in fact i made lots of things out of cardboard to compensate for the lack of toys. i made a jeep, a bunch of buildings so Gozilla would have a city to smash. anyway, i just wanted to say that while there was some great stuff out there in the sixties and early seventies, some of us could only dream...........


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

john - I for one know how lucky I was both materially and emotionally. I had about as perfect a childhood as one can have. But as you point out and as Carson alluded to - not everyone _was_ or _is_ so lucky. It's important to always be cognizant of that fact.


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## beeblebrox (Jul 30, 2003)

Never too late to start your first childhood. :thumbsup:


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## frankenstyrene (Oct 5, 2006)

Carson Dyle said:


> Every generation romanticizes the past (especially after they turn 40), but contrary to what some may say I submit America in the early 21st century is still a reasonably fun, safe, comfy place to come of age.


Reasonably so, yes, but with one huge (to me) difference: things everywhere have recently gotten inexcusably, inexplicably coarser, cruder and more carnal - knowingly, even arrogantly so. Children are the most succeptible and as the twigs are bent...

Not saying the sky is falling and that we'll all die from it, but whatever it is, it's to be lamented.


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

One of the unfortunate things about being an only child is that, now that my parents are deceased, I have no one with whom I can discuss my childhood -- which is probably why I'm such a sucker for nostalgia. Many of the items Zorro and the others rattled off upthread serve as emotional links to a treasured part of my life. And while I can't afford to live in the past, I still allow myself to visit there from time to time.

The good news, Only Child-wise, is that what toys my parents _did_ bring home were all mine.  



john guard said:


> i made lots of things out of cardboard to compensate for the lack of toys.


Although my folks could afford to buy me the occasional toy or model, not even they could bring home the most coveted prize of all... an Aurora Jupiter II model kit. To realize that dream I resorted to paper plates, Scotch tape, magic-marker, and a plastic bubble from a gumball machine.

Suffice it to say we went through a lot of paper plates at our house.



frankenstyrene said:


> things everywhere have recently gotten inexcusably, inexplicably coarser, cruder and more carnal


When my father was a boy children by the thousands were still working fourteen hour days under horrid conditions in sweatshops all across America. You want carnal, _that's_ carnal.

I'm not saying we don't live in coarse times, but I do question the assertion that childhood today is a less pleasant, less "moral" place than it was back in the halcyon "good old days." And I say this both as a parent, and as the husband of an elementary school teacher.


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## frankenstyrene (Oct 5, 2006)

Carson Dyle said:


> When my father was a boy children by the thousands were still working fourteen hour days under horrid conditions in sweatshops all across America. You want carnal, _that's_ carnal.


We have different definitions of 'carnal,' then. But speaking of can't going back:



> I did live with a guy once, though, but that was just for a couple of years. Usual slurs, rumours, innuendos, people didn't understand. Ran him out of town like a common pygmy...Sure, he was a Physical Education major, but he had a mind, he could think, wasn't all muscle, all body, all sinewy limbs. He got married, you know, later, had three kids. Never cared for her, sent a nice gift, never got a note...I told him she was wrong. And that younger boy. Just like his father, football hero. Lived with him for a year. Wasn't the same. Can't go back.


- Frank Drebbin


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

Great speech, that ^. Isn't the original "Police Squad" TV series due out on DVD soon?

I think our definition of carnal is probably the same. Some pretty dreadful things occurred in those sweatshops, but this is no place to get into that. 

My point was that children have always been in harm's way, and I'm not sure the threat to innocence is any greater today than it has been in the past. It's simply assumed a different shape.

The very notion of the "innocense of childhood" is a Victorian invention, and it has always been a bit of a myth IMHO. What's not a myth is that parents need to keep an eye on their kids, and pay attention to their needs.

To paraphrase the Coen brothers, "The world is a hard place for the little things."


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

Did he ever eat chop suey?


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

frankenstyrene said:


> Reasonably so, yes, but with one huge (to me) difference: things everywhere have recently gotten inexcusably, inexplicably coarser, cruder and more carnal - knowingly, even arrogantly so. Children are the most succeptible and as the twigs are bent...


YES! What he said...sure kids are kids and yes there were 'punks' always BUT...they wouldn't pull you out of a car and beat the crap out of you cuz you looked at them wrong or honked your horn for almost driving you into a ditch or cutting you off! Todays kids have 3/4 less the pride, respect or humility that any other generation before them had! Its all from the HOME....not the music, video games or what ever....its the basic foundation....building blocks of life and decency that is lacking in todays children and remember I'm talking about the old fashioned rual, suburban neighborhoods....not the inner cities.


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## scotpens (Sep 6, 2003)

frankenstyrene said:


> . . . things everywhere have recently gotten inexcusably, inexplicably coarser, cruder and more carnal - knowingly, even arrogantly so. Children are the most succeptible and as the twigs are bent...


Hasn't it ever seemed thus? Today it's sexual and violent content in movies, TV, computer games and rap lyrics. Fifty years ago, horror comic books, rock ’n’ roll, and Elvis Presley's gyrations were thought to cause juvenile delinquency. And a century ago? 

Mothers of River City, heed the warning before it's too late!
Watch for the tell-tale signs of corruption.
The moment your son leaves the house, does he rebuckle his knickerbockers below the knee?
Is there a nicotine stain on his index finger?
A dime novel hidden in the corn crib?
Is he starting to memorize jokes from _Captain Billy’s Whiz Bang_?
Are certain words creeping into his conversation?
Words like . . . "swell"? And "so’s your old man"?
Well, if so, my friends —
Ya got trouble, right here in River City!
With a capital "T"
And that rhymes with "P"
And that stands for Pool!

And yet every generation says "But today, it's different."


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

My 7 year-old daughter told me this evening that she wants to grow her hair down to her "booty". I could have done without that particular appellation. On the other hand, she still believes in Santa Claus as a living, breathing, magical being. I had cynically given up on St. Nick by the time I was 6. When I was 7, everyone I knew in Raleigh, North Carolina was lilly-white - except for my grandmother's black maid, who lived _way_ on the other side of town. My daughter's two best friends are Hispanic and Chinese, respectively. When I was 7, the only professional women I saw were nurses and schoolteachers. My 7 year-old daughter fully believes that she can grow up to become President of The United States. Of course, she _could_ grow up to be Britney Spears instead.   

Ya' takes the good with the bad.


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## scotpens (Sep 6, 2003)

Considering the variety of other words she must have heard by now, be thankful she said "booty"!


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## john guard (Dec 31, 2001)

just to follow up, because i did'nt have the toys other kids had, i really appreciate what i have now. i have tons of vintage Gi Joe, lots of Aurora models, and tons of comics i always wanted as a kid. i dont feel like i want to relive my "good 'ol days" because for the most part i had a painful childhood. but being older and some what wise about material things, i'm not a flashy guy, i drive a pick-up truck and live in a nice town. i would not trade what i have today for my childhood. still, i evny you guys who had great parents and were able to live "the Aurora glory days" with a great sense of wonder. i envy you guys who can look fondly back at the "good ol' days"

thanks for letting me share!


John Guard


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## Rebel Rocker (Jan 26, 2000)

Hey, as a great way to see if you would want to go back in time to re-live a certain time _as you were then_ or _with the knowledge you have now_ , just watch some of the shows that you used to love as a kid that are available now on dvd. Case in point : Superman. I remember that, as a kid I was in awe of the show. I recently picked up the first season on dvd. Hhmmm, I don't seem to remember being able to easily see the difference between Reeves stand-in in the fight scenes and Reeves himself. Seeing it now, the difference is laughable. How many other things, viewed now through the haze of time, would lose that warm remembrance with which we now hold them? Seeing a lot of those shows I watched regularly as a kid, I do feel warmly toward them simply because they remind me of the times when they meant so much to me. Of course, to go back in time and yet see them with today's knowledge, would ruin the whole thing.

Wayne


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

Yesterday wasn't always good and tomorrow isn't as bad as it seems.

I'm also thankful and happy to have grown up when I did .....and can enjoy those little or big things that take us back while at our modeling desks, benches, kitchen table or where ever 

Did anyone ever see 'Jack the Bear' with Danny Devito....that was cool.....it brought back some childhood memories....If you have not seen it I highly recomend it....the original trailers did it NO justice.

Build on Garth!


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## frankenstyrene (Oct 5, 2006)

fluke said:


> YES! What he said...sure kids are kids and yes there were 'punks' always BUT...they wouldn't pull you out of a car and beat the crap out of you cuz you looked at them wrong or honked your horn for almost driving you into a ditch or cutting you off! Todays kids have 3/4 less the pride, respect or humility that any other generation before them had! Its all from the HOME....not the music, video games or what ever....its the basic foundation....building blocks of life and decency that is lacking in todays children and remember I'm talking about the old fashioned rual, suburban neighborhoods....not the inner cities.


I'm with you. Scotpens makes a good point, but for this generation it IS different and I don't have to be an old geezer to say so (but if 38 as of tomorrow is now considered geezerdom, send my my membership card and black socks to go with my sandals). 

Look, every generation has had its young trash, thugs and punks, no one argues that. Back in the '50s it was the downright violent greaser-types, f'rinstance...kids who weren't always theives because they were hungry, but were bullies and rapists for the sheer hell of it. Similar examples more recently could be mentioned.

And yet, in every generation prior to this one, the greasers and thugs and punks were always the exceptions, a relatively small minority...and as much as grownups might have griped about them, they still knew most kids were at least trying to be upright and so the future was, to that degree, safe. 

Can that be said today? Possibly...probably. But the margins have clearly narrowed and that fact alone is scary. 

Unlike today, it was NEVER as fashionable for kids to do whatever was right in their own eyes - all parental and societal influences be damned - on the scale we see today. It's disturbing to see their insane demand for 'respect' from everyone (or else!) while feeling free to refuse respect and even common courtesy for anyone they choose. Will they grow out of it by the time their 30? If the twig is bent long enough, why should they? 

The Leary drones were possibly the closest we've gotten to this but, again, they were a definite minority (this nation would no longer exist if they had the numbers to actually get what they were demanding between their frequent lays, joints, acid hits and baths. Wait, forget "baths"). And the Leary crowd, by and large, were never really violent, even potentially. 

Today it has become fashionable for boys to be thuggish, rude and disrespectful to the point of behaviors Fluke pointed out, and for girls to be slutty, trampy and have half a butt-crack showing on top of their own rudeness. Can you name me anything like this in our history? 

Bad enough this "fad" (?) is modeled by their sports and entertainment idols, now it's being marketed to them on several fronts - clothes, music, games, etc. And we know better than anyone how much kids are suckers for careful marketing.

Look, I'm not being grandpa here: Do all kids subscribe to this decline? No. But LOTS do on at least some level. And even if they don't truly buy into it and are just posing and putting up a front to fit in, the behavior result is the same. Thug is as thug does.

Elvis caught heat for - horrors! - wiggling his hips on TV..."Cop Killer" is old news...now a song about raping ones own mom and 10 year old girls wearing "You Know You Want Me" t-shirts garners the overall reaction of _"eh."_ And THESE kids' kids, when they inevitably start having their own within the next 5-7 years, will be that much worse twenty years on. Bank on it.

I don't want us all to live on Candy Cane Lane with the angels with puppy faces and the magic frogs in funny little hats, so I don't want any arguments that I'm wishing for something like that. I'm not. 

But since exchanges of ideas are always nice: if someone can point me to any time in the last 100 years where an otherwise civilized society allowed sensibilities as literally *BRUTAL* as today's to be so widely promoted to its youth and - for all I can tell - was so blandly ACCEPTED by its adults, call me a Vulcan cuz I'm all ears. Has anything quite like this happened before?  

PS

One boy came into my modeling class and immediately threw a fit...complaining that he didn't want to be in it, never signed up for it (that was true) and that this class was "a class for little b*tches" and that he wouldn't do a damned thing in it. 

Okay, I asked him, what WERE your elective picks? 

1. Weight training 

2. Scrapbooking

I later asked his teacher why he'd consider building plastic models to be for b*tches, yet his close 2nd was, of all things, _scrapbooking?_ (which to this day I associate only with women only because I know of no man who does it...not saying none do or that I'd care if they did...just don't know any)

The teacher told me that there are two reasons: first, the Scrapbooking teacher is a rather PYT so all the boys want to get in her class just to ogle her. Second, last year she allowed some of them to do some rather (not sure how to put this) gang-ish scrapbooks, presumably including some stuff that would otherwise be inappropriate in any school (colors, symbols, lyric refs, photos). 

Thug wannabees are usually among the most cattle-minded, conformist folk. This scrapbooking incident is further proof. 

If you have the time and money - I have neither - engage in this interesting social experiment: Publicize the rumor that Tupac and other dead saints of thugdom did macrame. Tomorrow all the toughs will be wanting to do macrame.

Better yet, say they built monster models. :tongue:


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Rebel Rocker said:


> Case in point : Superman. I remember that, as a kid I was in awe of the show. I recently picked up the first season on dvd. Hhmmm, I don't seem to remember being able to easily see the difference between Reeves stand-in in the fight scenes and Reeves himself. Seeing it now, the difference is laughable.


 Interestingly, we were discussing this recently over at TrekBBS, so i happen to have some screen grabs handy:

Curly-haired stand-in doing a wire-lifted takeoff, complete with crane shadow:
http://inpayne.com/temp/PDVD_277.jpg
http://inpayne.com/temp/PDVD_278.jpg

Same guy doing it again:
http://inpayne.com/temp/PDVD_279.jpg
http://inpayne.com/temp/PDVD_280.jpg

Fist fight stand-in:
http://inpayne.com/temp/PDVD_281.jpg
http://inpayne.com/temp/PDVD_285.jpg
http://inpayne.com/temp/PDVD_287.jpg

For some reason Supes had different hair when he grabbed the falling DC-3 than when he got his closeup:
http://inpayne.com/temp/PDVD_283.jpg
http://inpayne.com/temp/PDVD_284.jpg

Stand-in doing a leap from a rock:
http://inpayne.com/temp/PDVD_288.jpg

These were a result of some yahoo on TrekBBS saying "George Reeves did all his own stunts!!" when I mentioned how obvious the stand-ins were. So I said, "oh yeah?" and smacked him down with some solid evidence.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Oh, and:



> Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) car‧nal  /ˈkɑr
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Don't really see it applying to sweat shop kids. Just sayin'


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

Seems like this thread is becoming "political". A perfect example of "topic drift". I don't think anyone on this board would disagree that American culture has become "courser" over the years. The question is - what are the reasons and what should/could "we" do about it? What has let the genie "out of the bottle"? That's where a lot of us would disagree. I would argue that the _primary _driving factor has been _technology -_ pure and simple. Technology by itself is apolitical and amoral. But we're not supposed to argue politics or morality on this board. My daughter is certainly exposed to more coursness, at an earlier age, than I was. All her mother and I can do is teach her and guide her as well as we possibly can. And be politically active, both locally and nationally. That's the best we can do.


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## Y3a (Jan 18, 2001)

Our rememberences of being kids should HAVE NO politics. WE WERE KIDS!! Duh!

It was about cool toys, and that warm, fun feeling you had around your house, and family. Just because you HAD A GI Joe doesn't mean you were a fan of the Viet Nam 'police action'. It was because shooting the 'enemy' and all those cool explosions were fun.


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## Dr. Brad (Oct 5, 1999)

By the time I get to these threads, they're usually over. Oh well. A number of great points have been made. One thing I might have expected some of us would have made more of is just how different the current levels of space and transporation technology turned out to be from what we were "promised." I'm 45 years old, and I remember assuming that all the Major Matt Mason stuff would be real in my lifetime (or something like it). Boy was I wrong.  

Where are my moonbase, hotel in orbit and nuclear powered cars?


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## Cro-Magnon Man (Jun 11, 2001)

Great thread, about the personal motivations which lead us to build models, the first in a long time in which I've read every single post. Like many of you, I've found the past few years to be different somehow; I know that nothing was ever perfect and that things were always rough, but in the past few years I've found that I feel unsafe in any British city, even in the daytime. It used to be just at night that things were unstable.

When I was growing up in the 70's, here in the UK the big thing was 'The Year 2000'. It still seemed a very long way off, and there was lots of speculation as to what 'The Year 2000' would look like. Children's TV programmes encouraged kids to enter competitions to draw pictures of what they thought year-2000-society would be like, and all the ones that I remember portrayed a future with people in spacesuits, living on the moon or another planet, transported by personal jet-packs or flying around in space-cars; and cereal packets, books and comics also took up the theme of a silver-suited future.
Well, The Year 2000 arrived, and everyone I knew was living in the same house that they had been living in in the 1970's, sitting on the same furniture; none of us were living on the moon, and our Aunty Margaret was still driving the same car. The castle overlooking the city was still there, as dark and simple as ever; spacemen had not destroyed it with their rayguns after all.

In the year 2000 itself , I was working abroad as a teacher, and whilst tutoring a teenage student the subject of the future science came up. I asked her to tell me what she thought the future would look like, and she described a society of people in silver spacesuits, flying through the air in jet-powered conveyances, and living on an earth that looked sort of like the moon, or living on another planet. Some ideas never change!


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Oh, how well I remember the mystique of "The Year 2000!" Astro Boy was set in "The Year 2000!" when robots and flying cars were everyday stuff.

Boy, did we miss that mark!

btw, I dunno if things are less safe these days - a recently-retired coworker of mine went to high school in Manhattan in the early 1950s, and he remembers seeing a teacher thrown out of a second story window by some, eh, _unruly_, students. Followed by his desk.


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## beeblebrox (Jul 30, 2003)

BladeRunner's 2019 is not too far off. All we need is the flying cars and off-world colonies to make that vision come true. I mean, we've already got the Replicants. Isn't that right Mr. Payne? (if that really is your name) :lol:


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## scotpens (Sep 6, 2003)

Cro-Magnon Man said:


> When I was growing up in the 70's, here in the UK the big thing was 'The Year 2000'.


For Conan O'Brien, it still is!

(Or has he finally quit doing that schtick?)


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## the Dabbler (Feb 17, 2005)

Speaking ( at 66, having raised four kids now in their forties ) as the "old man" of the group, does anyone remember the flick "Blackboard Jungle", c.1955 ? (As re: the teacher-out-the-window story ) But, as has been said, that was in "the big city" and not 'normal' in the rest of the country.

However, this thread cannot continue _without_ getting "political"!! The expulsion of "morals" in the classroom, and society in general. The theory that 'kids' ( and adults ) have "rights' but no responsibilities. The discarded belief ( often encoded by law) that teachers had the authority of parents in school. Etc., etc., ALL brought about by "political" means via lenient courts, politicians, and laws. Even "patriotism" has been abandoned for the "me for me" attitude. Wasn't that way in the '40's Bub !

Plus the abandonment of "parenting" by parents who want to be thier kids 'buddies' instead of parents. Who 'buy' their kids favor with trinkets instead of demanding respect from them. ( And I might add, spending time with them ) I am NOT my kids 'buddy', even at their age, I am still "the old man", they have 'buddies' outside the family.
Parents who want their kids to "have it 'better' than I did", when 'our' generation didn't do so bad, and our experiences made us the responsible citizens we are.

One "problem" is that those 60's-70's "rebels/revolutionaries" of the "me" generation are now filling the political-proffessitorial-clerical roles that influence all of society today. Basically, even the personal responsibility of amusing yourself has been abandoned for the entertain-me-now with instantly gratifying toys/games has replaced the self satisfaction of building models, reading for learning, and other pastimes.  
Dabbler


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

frankenstyrene said:


> f someone can point me to any time in the last 100 years where an otherwise civilized society allowed sensibilities as literally *BRUTAL* as today's to be so widely promoted to its youth and - for all I can tell - was so blandly ACCEPTED by its adults, call me a Vulcan cuz I'm all ears. Has anything quite like this happened before?
> 
> I seem to recall Germany having a few youth-related problems back in the 30's. And then there was that unfortunate business in Rwanda...


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## Frankie Boy (Feb 28, 2002)

Oooo! Good call.


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## frankenstyrene (Oct 5, 2006)

Carson Dyle said:


> frankenstyrene said:
> 
> 
> > f someone can point me to any time in the last 100 years where an otherwise civilized society allowed sensibilities as literally *BRUTAL* as today's to be so widely promoted to its youth and - for all I can tell - was so blandly ACCEPTED by its adults, call me a Vulcan cuz I'm all ears. Has anything quite like this happened before?
> ...


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## frankenstyrene (Oct 5, 2006)

the Dabbler said:


> The discarded belief ( often encoded by law) that teachers had the authority of parents in school.


_In loco parentis,_ according to the lawyer at our legal meeting before school started, is still technically in force. Problem is, as you know, while teachers have the legal RESPONSIBILITY of parents while in custody of those parents' kids, we no longer have any of the AUTHORITY to back it up. And the kids know it. Not an enviable situation to say the least.

Great post.


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## frankenstyrene (Oct 5, 2006)

John P said:


> btw, I dunno if things are less safe these days - a recently-retired coworker of mine went to high school in Manhattan in the early 1950s, and he remembers seeing a teacher thrown out of a second story window by some, eh, _unruly_, students. Followed by his desk.


The breakdown (past and present) of the NYC public ed system was the worst and preceeded similar breakdowns everywhere else. The reasons are many, as would be the threads thereof. But I just dragged in a new kitten and my wife still has a b-day present hidden somewhere and she wants me to go find it.


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## the Dabbler (Feb 17, 2005)

frankenstyrene said:


> _In loco parentis,_ according to the lawyer at our legal meeting before school started, is still technically in force. Problem is, as you know, while teachers have the legal RESPONSIBILITY of parents while in custody of those parents' kids, we no longer have any of the AUTHORITY to back it up. And the kids know it. Not an enviable situation to say the least.
> 
> Great post.


I'm quite familiar with that situation. My kid brother ( now retired) was a middle-school teacher in a "depressed area" in Pittsburgh for many years, and came home daily with a throbbing headache from breaking up fights and trying desperately to impose decorum in the room. And as you say, with NO backup from superiors NOR parents, all of whom are gutless and afraid to take steps to curb the situation.

Funny though, in my youth we were "depressed" ( poor) too, but no-one kept telling us, so we came out alright and didn't riot or burn buildings down!!


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## THRUSH Central (Feb 20, 2003)

If I read, and understood, Stephen Hawking's book all we have to do is conquer two problems - gravity and heat - viola! Time travel.

As for me - November 22nd, 1963 - 12:25 pm Central. Sixth floor, Texas Schoolbook Depository, Dallas, Texas. T.U.C.


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## AFILMDUDE (Nov 27, 2000)

the Dabbler said:


> Speaking ( at 66, having raised four kids now in their forties ) as the "old man" of the group, does anyone remember the flick "Blackboard Jungle", c.1955 ? (As re: the teacher-out-the-window story ) But, as has been said, that was in "the big city" and not 'normal' in the rest of the country.
> 
> However, this thread cannot continue _without_ getting "political"!! The expulsion of "morals" in the classroom, and society in general. The theory that 'kids' ( and adults ) have "rights' but no responsibilities. The discarded belief ( often encoded by law) that teachers had the authority of parents in school. Etc., etc., ALL brought about by "political" means via lenient courts, politicians, and laws. Even "patriotism" has been abandoned for the "me for me" attitude. Wasn't that way in the '40's Bub !
> 
> ...


Wow! I think you nailed it, Dabbler.


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## ilbasso (Jun 7, 2006)

I worry about the effect that physical effects that TV and video games have on kids today. Sure, we watched TV when we were kids but we only had 3 channels to choose from, and not a lot of kids' programming except for Saturday morning cartoons. (When I was in Okinawa in 4th and 5th grades, we only had one English channel and one Japanese channel - we could watch Lost in Space in Japanese and hear the English soundtrack on AFRTS radio!) 

Studies have shown that for every hour of TV that kids watch per day when they're under 2 years old, their risk of ADD/ADHD goes up by 10%. Constant exposure to rapidly-changing images and scenes has a physical effect on developing brains, and our brains simply haven't evolved to handle this kind of rapid visual stimulation. Considering how many parents use TV as a baby sitter and the plethora of video and programming aimed at even 1 year olds these days, it's amazing to me that kids can focus on anything at all.


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

ilbasso said:


> Constant exposure to rapidly-changing images and scenes has a physical effect on developing brains, and our brains simply haven't evolved to handle this kind of rapid visual stimulation.


Interesting. What do you base this on?


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## ilbasso (Jun 7, 2006)

This was a controversial study published in the April 2004 issue of the scientific journal _Pediatrics_, entitled "Early Television Exposure and Subsequent Attentional Problems in Children." I may have remembered a few of the statistics slightly incorrectly (I hadn't looked up the article in 2 years until you asked the question) but that was the gist of the research. Quoting from the abstract:

"Results. Data were available for 1278 children at age 1 and 1345 children at age 3. Ten percent of children had attentional problems at age 7. In a logistic regression model, hours of television viewed per day at both ages 1 and 3 was associated with attentional problems at age 7 (1.09 [1.03–1.15] and 1.09 [1.02–1.16]), respectively.

"Conclusions. Early television exposure is associated with attentional problems at age 7. Efforts to limit television viewing in early childhood may be warranted, and additional research is needed."


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

Thanks, but I wasn't questioning the part of your post dealing with early over-exposure to television. Anyone who allows his or her infant to watch televison for hours at a time should have his or her head examined. My issue is with the assertion that the human brain "hasn't evolved to handle" the type of rapid visual stimulation found in video games.


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## ilbasso (Jun 7, 2006)

I was extrapolating from a well-known study by Halpern (1975), "Turned-on Toddlers." He documented the potential for over-stimulation of young children from watching TV. This over-stimulation taxes their still-developing neurological systems, and that may result in a short attention span and hyperactivity.

Call my statement on evolutionary brain capabilities speculation on my part. But think about what our ancestors grew up watching for 1+ million years. There wasn't the constant rapid movement and scene shifting that we see on TV. Unless they were hunting prey or running from something, nothing moved any faster than the scenes nature paraded by them. 

I do a lot of excutive coaching and I hear over and over again about people who try to do too much at the same time - sitting in a meeting with their laptops open, trying to focus on a discussion and reading the never-ending stream of messages constantly arriving on their Blackberrys. We can multitask to the extent that we are physically capable of doing all these things at once, but no one I have talked to says they feel they are actually fully present in this situation. Nothing gets their full attention. 

I think this is why many people feel a need to get into meditative practices, whether actual Zen meditation or something (like modelling!!) which requires your full attention.


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## frankenstyrene (Oct 5, 2006)

THRUSH Central said:


> If I read, and understood, Stephen Hawking's book all we have to do is conquer two problems - gravity and heat - viola! Time travel.
> 
> As for me - November 22nd, 1963 - 12:25 pm Central. Sixth floor, Texas Schoolbook Depository, Dallas, Texas. T.U.C.


And while Oswald is a couple floors down enjoying his sodapop, the odd sound your body makes as it displaces the air alerts one of the real shooters, who shoots you. You really wanna go back for that??


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## frankenstyrene (Oct 5, 2006)

I daily see kids who are diagnosed with ADD/AD-HD...note I don't say "kids who HAVE AD-HD," only that they're diagnosed with it. Anyway, it's obvious that there's SOMETHING wrong with these kids but, as to WHAT it is, there's a whole lotta voodoo and rabbits pulled from hats going on (and jobs secured) when it comes to the label and diagnosis industry. Sad, but no news there.

I can tell you this much, tho: show me a kid who has the attention span of a gnat on subjects actually below his known level, but who can stay up until 2 in the morning playing video games without blinking, and I'll show you a kid who DOES NOT HAVE AN ATTENTION DEFICIT. No, what that kid has is IDD (INTEREST Deficit Disorder)...he/she chooses what to be interested in and thereby invests attention only in those things that interest him/her. In far too many cases, it's just that simple...and the kids are shrewd enough to use the handy-dandy label as a crutch, excuse or both. 

Now before someone jumps on me with both feet, I'm not saying something like AD-HD can't exist or that there's never some biochemical malfunction involved with any of these kids - some had their brains pickled _in utero_ by Mom's drinking and drugs or by Dad's damaged sperm, and so are permanently wrecked and beyond any real improvement. 

But for the most part, even for those kids, it comes down to what all life comes down to: the individual's WILL and CHOICE. I've seen it too many times for it not to be true, at least some of the time if not most.

PS

One of the wisest things I ever heard in a school was the observation of a retired teacher/principal who now subs:

"When I was a kid, belt leather was our Ritalyn. And damned if it didn't work every time."


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

"If Man Were Meant To Fly..."

Nevermind.


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

I shot a man in Reno once, just to watch him die.


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## Frankie Boy (Feb 28, 2002)

There are indeed many kids who legitimately suffer from Attention Deficit Disdorder. That is, they don't receive enough attention from their parents!!!

On a more serious note, there are essentially two kinds of ADD: physiological and cultural. 

The former type is exceedingly rare, and is the kind that may very well require pharmacological treatment such as prescribing Ritalin. 

The latter type of ADD is far more common — certainly in North America. Indeed, some have pointed out that it seems to be almost an exclusively North American problem. In any event, as a cultural phenomenon, it has more to do with the quality of care and nuturance — or the lack thereof. Pharmacological treatment in this instance may address the symptoms, but not the cause.


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## the Dabbler (Feb 17, 2005)

I think Ilbasso, Frankenstyrene, and Frankie Boy have it right. And as for the quick-paced, flashing-light effects, it's been established for years that those can easily trigger siezures and 'blackouts' in epileptics by overwhelming the brain functions. These effects are rampant today in every TV commercial and rock song DVD. Personally they give me a headache because my brain has NOT evolved to handle such things. They are NOT PRESENT in naturally occuring events. Hence they have to be jarring to the brain and nervous system, especially for non-fully-developed brains. No wonder kids today are spastic !! Any kid with REAL nervous disorders ( unnecessary fidgeting ) in my day was said to have St. "Vidas Dance" ( They grew out of it !! )

As for the ADD and other aflictions being "medicated", that is a case of lazines by medical, legal, and parenting so-called experts. Children who are unruly in school just have not been trained or taught or DISCIPLINED to control themselves. The parents are just as afflicted because they don't "have time" ( or the guts ) to raise their kids if it takes more than 30 seconds.( Or they have to show 'authority' )
PATIENCE and DETERMINATION are what it takes to rear kids. For me, in very "un-normal" circumstances with ex-wife, etc., I had to be ready AND willing, to go one step further than the kids went so they realized "the RULZ was the RULZ" !!

THAT is the big problem today !! How many times do kids, politicians, rock stars, get "reprieves' from the laws & rules for "extenuating circumstanses" !!! Which merely means laziness/lack of 'zeal' by the enforcers of those RULZ !!! Or even that said 'enforcers' just DON'T LIKE the RULZ !! ??


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

Zorro said:


> I shot a man in Reno once, just to watch him die.


God I hate rap music.


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## beck (Oct 22, 2003)

I'm goin' ta Jackson ! 
hb


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## ilbasso (Jun 7, 2006)

We have BOTH kinds of music - Country AND Western!


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## the Dabbler (Feb 17, 2005)

Take it from the world's biggest Hank Williams (Sr.) fan, "country' ain't "country" no mo ! It's 'country' for people who don't like "Country" ! ( sigh ) "Western" is nearly obsolete !?
Now if someone made a "good" model kit of *HANK*, that may sell !!! (What a segue back on model topic, is the kid good or what ?? )


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

the Dabbler said:


> Now if someone made a "good" model kit of *HANK*, that may sell !!! (What a segue back on model topic, is the kid good or what ?? )


Wouldn't require much styrene. His guitar was wider than he was. I'd build it!


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## the Dabbler (Feb 17, 2005)

You got that right Zorro. I think when he was behind the mic stand he was invisible !


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

ilbasso said:


> Call my statement on evolutionary brain capabilities speculation on my part.


Fair enough. For my part, I think the human brain is more “evolved” than some might have us believe. Despite evidence to the contrary…



frankenstyrene said:


> "When I was a kid, belt leather was our Ritalyn. And damned if it didn't work every time."


Teaching a child to fear you is certainly one way to get him to behave, but I submit there are better ways to earn his respect and obedience (to say nothing of his love) 

Fortunately, I don’t rely on HobbyTalk for advice on child rearing.


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## ilbasso (Jun 7, 2006)

How can we talk about the human brain as "evolved" AND Hank Williams in the same thread???

(ONLY JOKING!!! I play banjo in a bluegrass band, so I ain't one to point no fingers at no one.)


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## Y3a (Jan 18, 2001)

(roadhog voice)AHHH!!! Don't wanna git no fight started....(roadhog voice/)

"It don't bother ol' Roadhawg none.."


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## the Dabbler (Feb 17, 2005)

ilbasso said:


> How can we talk about the human brain as "evolved" AND Hank Williams in the same thread???
> 
> (ONLY JOKING!!! I play banjo in a bluegrass band, so I ain't one to point no fingers at no one.)


Then your hero must be Bill Monroe
I slap on a little bit of rhythm guitar myself, got a 6 and a 12 string. Got two banjos too but haven't done much with 'em. Converted one 4-string to a 5-string.
Listen to some of *HANK's* lyrics, pretty deep for an uneducated "hillbilly" !


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

I'll take a Jerry Lee Lewis kit while we're at it. And a Screamin' Jay Hawkins with coffin and skull scepter.


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## the Dabbler (Feb 17, 2005)

Jerry Lee was on Leno or Letterman last week. Looked bad/old, lost his "fire".
Would that model include piano ?? that'd be cool !


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

the Dabbler said:


> Jerry Lee was on Leno or Letterman last week. Looked bad/old, lost his "fire".
> Would that model include piano ?? that'd be cool !


Well ... he's The Killer. And he's 71. And he shoulda' died about 50 times before now. And the model would _have_ to include the piano.











Screamin' Jay


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## the Dabbler (Feb 17, 2005)

If he's called "Killer", would that quailify him as a monster figure kit? (Ha, back on topic again !!)


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## frankenstyrene (Oct 5, 2006)

Carson Dyle said:


> Teaching a child to fear you is certainly one way to get him to behave, but I submit there are better ways to earn his respect and obedience (to say nothing of his love)


Such as?

Perhaps we're having another definition problem but I supsect we're not as far apart as we might think. 

However, you well know there are many areas of life - even for adults - where respect and obedience is unlikely if not impossible without some degree of fear...fear of this thing or that, not necessarily physical pain. Doubly so for children, who are far more creatures of emotion and impulse than creatures of intellect and reason (I know, I used to be one). So whatever those non-fear based ways of yours are, bottle and market them. You'll be rich overnight. If they work. 

Unless one is dealing with an unnaturally compliant child, no approach that does not include "fear of the [literal or figurative] rod" will **consistently** keep kids (esp boys) in line and train them up right. ESPECIALLY when those kids make no secret that they hate authority, mock foolish attempts to reason with them like "little adults," and despise you the more you try to bribe, reward, coddle, wheedle and beg them to behave themselves. 

On the other hand, I deal daily with embittered thug boys who have been neglected, screamed at and literally beaten by adults, who laugh at the threat of getting cuffed and going back to Juvie. Naturally, fear *alone* does not motivate them, except to more and more anger. So that alone is not at all what I was suggesting (especially since corporal punishment is out).

The one thing these boys DO respond positively to: male teachers who are not mean or threatening, but who take a fair, caring but strong "no B.S." approach with them...something many of them have never known in their lives. 

Got two in my class who are exactly like this with me - I'm not their Dad and I always have to keep one eye on the possibility that they're trying to game me, but they've warmed up to me noticibly (others have commented) because I treat them like I would my own sons - I'm perfectly fair with them and keep my word ALWAYS...I lay down the law and back it up. They know they can trust me to be square, so when I do have to yell and get in their faces they may get mad but they give in. Because I beat them? Belittle them? No, because I have EARNED their respect, have EARNED their trust, and so have EARNED the right to be the boss. They OWE it to me. Which is as it should be with fathers and sons. 

What's really nice, but sad: Mine won't admit it but lots of these kids hate to go home, especially on Fridays, because at home there's no strong, fair, loving male presence...often there's no male except the kid himself and he's expected to be "the man." That scares and angers him because he knows it isn't fair and that he's not ready for that responsibility. He's being cheated and he knows it. That's why Fridays are often the WORST behavior days of the week in my school...we have structure and safety and security, which kids CRAVE by nature, and so they don't want to leave it and go home to 48 hours of hunger, loneliness, drugs, ceaselessly blaring TV and music, dirty clothes, bad heat, dogsh*t on the floor, deputies face-planting a drunk brawling adult on the front porch at 2 A.M., or Mom whoring in the front room. Or worse. 

Stories have long abounded of some of these kids - boys and girls - desperately, sincerely asking staff to adopt them; not just to get out of a bad situation (no doubt) but because they perceive the teacher to be the only one in their lives who actually cares for them, accepts them, and will protect them. I'm misty typing this because too often they're right.

So in my room, and others like mine, they can feel safe, can relax, and be a kid. The guards drops, slowly, but eventually. And we never have to lay a hand on them in the sense I think you mean...but the element of natural fear (define that how you will but the sense of "being afraid of pain" isn't it) is vital; our success - small scale tho it is - would not happen without it. There's fear, but they know we cared first. For a kid, no 'fear' = contempt for the adult. Fear without caring = abuse = hatred. Caring + fear = trust, respect, obedience and love for the adult, who is also a necessary role model. That's how I sees it, anyway.

But if you know a viable alternative that will get me the same results without "fear," let me know. 



> Fortunately, I don’t rely on HobbyTalk for advice on child rearing.


Me either.

PS

Breaking out the PL Kongs next week! (back on topic)


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## the Dabbler (Feb 17, 2005)

Very good dissertation Franken, but one word we've all missed so far which occured to me is "consistentcy". Kids crave it. Even if they don't "like" the rules, they always know what they are. Unfortunately, too many parents/rulegivers waver, and that's where they lose 'respect'. Kids really DO want to know where the wall is so they can test and push against it, but they don't want it to give.


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## scotpens (Sep 6, 2003)

the Dabbler said:


> Take it from the world's biggest Hank Williams (Sr.) fan, "country' ain't "country" no mo ! It's 'country' for people who don't like "Country" ! ( sigh ) "Western" is nearly obsolete !?
> Now if someone made a "good" model kit of *HANK*, that may sell !!! (What a segue back on model topic, is the kid good or what ?? )


[IMG-LEFT]http://k92fm.com/images/acm2003/acm_shania.jpg[/IMG-LEFT]

She may not be "country" any more than I'm the Pope,
but Shania Twain is hot!!

As for nostalgia, the only thing I really miss
about the "good old days" is the price of model kits,
paint and glue!


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## the Dabbler (Feb 17, 2005)

NOW we're talkin' MODEL !


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

frankenstyrene said:


> Such as?
> 
> Perhaps we're having another definition problem but I supsect we're not as far apart as we might think.
> 
> ...


Your Attention Deficient students must adore you.  

I don’t dispute that fear can be a useful tool in the classroom, but I still maintain a leather strap is a poor substitute for properly prescribed medication. Then again, I’m not an educator. Just a parent who questions the wisdom of the quote you posted upthread, which strikes me as being the sort of thing Dirty Harry might say. Tough Love certainly has its place, but when it comes to dealing with kids I'm generally more the Fred Rogers type.

Now if you’ll excuse me, my son and I have a snap-fit X-Wing to finish.


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## the Dabbler (Feb 17, 2005)

Sorry Carson, I gotta chime in here. First, the definitions are personal to each individual. My one son, after having gotten his butt smacked, would call it " a beating". He doesn't/didn't know what a "beating" was. But anyone hearing that, assumed, as you do, that is WAS a severe "stomping-on", which it wasn't.

Plus, I still have a razor strop hanging on my wall. I won't bore you all with details, BUT if you had kids going SO FAR astray as mine were with the urgings and 'support' of a hostile and vindictive ex-wife you may understand better. My kids were literally heading for jail !!! I eventually got custody of even a step-son. This 'kid' has thanked me many times, now that he's 43, for the good wife, kids, home, job, life he now has. And it didn't come from 'bargaining' with him.

I've seen "time-outs" and such crap, but IF a kid is so bad ( or out-of-control) they have to "feel" a reprimand PERSONALLY.


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

the Dabbler said:


> My kids were literally heading for jail !!!


As I said, there is a time and place for Tough Love. Yours is an extreme example, and it sounds as if you made the right call. 

In my household, "crap" like the occasional time-out or negotiating session usually does the trick. On the occasions it does not, and I am forced to lower the boom, it is not something I enjoy. 

Suffice it to say blithe, cavalier quips about taking leather straps to children tend to rub me the wrong way as a parent.


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## the Dabbler (Feb 17, 2005)

I can see and understand that Carson. The same with me when someone pontificates on not giving a kid a "complex" by raising your voice or "physical" reprimands. Believe me, I have a daughter in law like that, and unfortunately my grandkids ( at least one of them ) is becoming more and more unruly, spoiled, and a general pain in the butt to society, with no social graces to endear him to the real world. Sadly, they're 1000 miles way from Grampap.

This reminds me of a quote-of-the-day I had on my fridge, paraphrased: " The biggest cause for the proliferation of support groups is the lack of a Grandmother in the home!"

IF you have a two-year-old running into the street frequently, how do you "rationalize" with him ? How does he understand dangers his mind hasn't "evolved' ( grown or experienced) to recognize? Most kids ( and many adults, sadly) are only capable of thinking of themselves and only 'react' when something touches THEM personally.

PS. By the way, my 'strap' has never been used on the grankids ( ages 12, 14, 17 ) it never HAD to be because they KNEW it would be. Testimony of their parents was suficient.


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

Please forgive me for resurrecting a thread that some may feel had run its course, but as fate would have it I just started reading a book that addresses the issue of "looking back" in a really insightful way.

Some of you may be familiar with Bill Bryson. The guy's one of my favorite contemporary writers, and he's just published a funny, loving, and beautifully written memoir about growing up in Des Moines, Iowa during the 50's. 

I've NEVER plugged a book on this forum, but if you're looking for a good read "The Thunderbolt Kid" comes highly recommended.

http://www.randomhouse.com/features/billbryson/bb_title/display.pperl?isbn=9780767919364


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

the Dabbler said:


> PS. By the way, my 'strap' has never been used on the grankids ( ages 12, 14, 17 ) it never HAD to be because they KNEW it would be. Testimony of their parents was suficient.


 It was interesting that, as an adult, I remember Dad taking his belt off and smacking me in the butt with it. I vividly remember immediately behaving the instant he started to take it off.

But when I mentioned it as an adult, both Mom and Dad swore he never layed a hand on me. The mere threat was always enough to let me know I done wrong and to straighten up. I guess my vivid imagination filled in the actual punishment when there was really only the threat.

Hm.


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

John P said:


> It was interesting that, as an adult, I remember Dad taking his belt off and s both Mom and Dad swore he never layed a hand on me.


I had a similar experience with my dad. 

I think spanking a child is (usually) harder on the parent than it is on the kid.

Human beings are very adept at blocking unpleasant memories. It's one of the reasons we've managed to survive as long as we have.


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## the Dabbler (Feb 17, 2005)

Well maybe he never did "lay a HAND on you" ? But then in this litiguous age they didn't want to admit it ??


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

Yeah. I'm sure that's it. John's parents were afraid John would sue them. Can we cease with the child-rearin' wisdom?


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

Sorry.

Not trying to rekindle any fights.

Just a good book I thought I'd try and pass along.

Bad idea.

My apologies.


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## the Dabbler (Feb 17, 2005)

Good call on Bryson's book Carson. I just read the blurbs and excerpt and it sounds every bit as good as Jean Shepard's "Christmas Story" ! And even compares to Erma Bombeck's style ! Being raised semi-poor in the '40's with working parents I can relate for sure.


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