# Laps limited vs. Timed heats



## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

I've been racing with friends for years We always run laps limited races, mainly due to the lack of corner marshals. We've had a blast through the years and countless close finishes that left us yelling at the top of our lungs with excitement at the end of the heat. 
Every commercial track we've ever gone to runs a timed heat. The only yelling that goes on is usually at an inexperienced volunteer corner marshal, on how he/she ruined the heat for the unfortunate soul who couldn't keep his car on the track in the first place. 
Are there any commercial tracks out ther running laps limited racing? I realize it may not be practical with more than eight racers. The program I run records the drivers fastest lap of the race and uses that info to place the driver in case of a tie.
Doesn't it seem like laps limited would be more exciting? Drag racing flourishes and Nascar continues to grow. First one to the line wins, isn't that real racing? Timed heats seem like one big test session to me.
_The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer. _
www.myspace.com/northtexasslotcars
Rich 43


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

Either format works. 

Timed heats were easier to automate back in the days where lap counting was done manually. Timed heats allow you to compare performance across racers easily. I'd have to say that timed heats are a product of legacy and tradition and the fact that it works well and cast majority of racers are very comfortable with it. I vastly prefer timed heats because you know exactly how long the race will be run and you know the lap totals that you need to beat to stay in contention. Also, because of the huge disparity in car performance you would have to set the lap total according to the type of car. Not a big deal, but a new twist.

Yelling at marshals is not a consequence of the race format. It is the consequence of poor sportsmanship and bad manners. If you don't wreck, you won't place your fate in the hands of the corner marshal.

Being flexible and adaptable is a virtue.


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## Pete McKay (Dec 20, 2006)

We used set lap races, have for 25 years and the program works perfectly. We generally have very large fields with drivers having several cars each so our heats are short. A 21 car field will take a 3 hour program to run start to finish.


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## afxgns (Jul 6, 2006)

CAUTION........ Rant Ahead!!

I HATE time/distance racing.
It is the lowest common denominator style of racing. Around here the magnet car guys from 30 years ago can't seem to upgrade the mindset. I've been riding this horse for years and it's going right in the crapper.
Lapped heats are the way to go.


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## martybauer31 (Jan 27, 2004)

Yeah, I have never heard anyone yell at a marshal in a fixed lap race like the fray.... 

We run timed heats up here in the NW (2 minutes in the prelims, 3-5 in the mains) and it works out just fine. There is plenty of excitement when you know you have just 30 seconds to catch the guy in front of you in the last heat of an A Main.

That being said, I have had fun at fixed lap events as well, it's the people that make an event not the race system.... Anyone who claims that one is better than the other is being a bit short sighted IMHO.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

> I've been riding this horse for years and it's going right in the crapper.


Nothing worse than a good horse ending up in the crapper, especially when you are still onboard. How many flushes does it take to get that thing to disappear down the hole and how do you keep from getting sucked down with it? English or western saddle?

Laps or time, either way works for me. Convergence around the space-time continuum racing format would work for me too. Quality time with controller in hand and racing buds standing alongside is all it takes for me to enjoy a day at the track. Minor details like formats and rotation schemes, clockwise vs. anti-clockwise direction, lane colors, and other such minutia is so far down on the list to be inconsequential. I just can't imagine anything resembling HATE entering into the picture where slot cars are involved.


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## rudykizuty (Aug 16, 2007)

I have never competed and never been to an event either. But I don't think format would matter to me. As AfxToo pointed out, it's about having fun. 

On that note, I would like to chime in and say that I think it's completely out of bounds to say anything cross to a marshall A) in acting as one, I would imagine there is a bit of pressure just in the fact that others are counting on you to get it done right and fast. Yelling isn't going to help that. B) even if they're not doing the greatest job, fool, you're dealing with them because you did a not so great job keeping your car in the slot !!! 

There's a reason why in sports, good code of conduct is referred to as sportsmanship. Healthy competition is wonderful, but no matter how "big" a deal winning may be, it's really about having a good time doing what you enjoy. After all, we ARE grown men playing with little toy cars here. Let's not take ourselves too seriously. 

Sorry for another rant.


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

I'm not sure how lap-limited is really scored. To me the term means the race stops after the first person reaches x-laps, but if you have more drivers than lanes the sitouts would never get a fair shot. If the final result is "scored" after everyone has run, it's sorta no different than a timed race, you're just using a different clock...counting laps instead of seconds. If it's in heat format, your score would be directly related to whoevers fastest in your particular heat as that would limit your track time, no? ie if you could run ten laps in a particular heat, that could drop to 8 simply by having a faster driver involved as it cuts down your time vs a heat with a slower leader. :freak:


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

rudykizuty said:


> I have never competed and never been to an event either. But I don't think format would matter to me. As AfxToo pointed out, it's about having fun.
> 
> On that note, I would like to chime in and say that I think it's completely out of bounds to say anything cross to a marshall A) in acting as one, I would imagine there is a bit of pressure just in the fact that others are counting on you to get it done right and fast. Yelling isn't going to help that. B) even if they're not doing the greatest job, fool, you're dealing with them because you did a not so great job keeping your car in the slot !!!
> 
> ...


 
Rudy you're right there is no place for yelling at anyone. Most of it that does get done though, in my experience, is when marshalls are not watching traffic and wreck running drivers...so the frustration is not completely out of their hands. Still not a reason to get all in a huff though. I always try to teach the new guys involved that when marshalling, the wreck in front of you is secondary to traffic. :thumbsup:


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Crash an Burns baby,no need for corner marshals and the attendent yelling that goes along with corner marshalling:thumbsup:


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Hornet said:


> Crash an Burns baby,no need for corner marshals and the attendent yelling that goes along with corner marshalling:thumbsup:


What if one guy wrecks into another's lane on the back of the track? :freak:

We added an interesting scoring system to our last few crash and burns that keeps the momentum going...scoring straight points on finish position with a 2-point bonus for hot lap per heat. Avoids the sunday driving you typically see towards the end of CnB heats. :thumbsup:


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## twolff (May 11, 2007)

Any ideas on running and scoring casual races on a small 4x8 with driver's stations on both the 8 ft. sides of the table? Other than the driver station configuration, I've done nothing so It's wide open.


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## martybauer31 (Jan 27, 2004)

SwamperGene said:


> I'm not sure how lap-limited is really scored. To me the term means the race stops after the first person reaches x-laps, but if you have more drivers than lanes the sitouts would never get a fair shot. If the final result is "scored" after everyone has run, it's sorta no different than a timed race, you're just using a different clock...counting laps instead of seconds. If it's in heat format, your score would be directly related to whoevers fastest in your particular heat as that would limit your track time, no? ie if you could run ten laps in a particular heat, that could drop to 8 simply by having a faster driver involved as it cuts down your time vs a heat with a slower leader. :freak:


You could run a round-robin style so no one is ever racing alone and the lap-limited would still work...

The flaw I see with lap-limited versus the timed system is that once a lap limited heat is over everyone goes back to the same starting line and essentially re-runs the same race. The guy that wins gets the most points, and then the rest get theirs in order, quite often the person in the best lane will come though (we all know the fast lanes on the track). The problem is, the guy in the gutter may not get rewarded for driving really well and keeping everyone within a lap of him, he just get hosed on points and moves on. In the timed system, he moves his car over into the next lane in the same spot, he's still down just a lap and gets to move into the good lane and make up some serious time. The reference to Nascar and real racing doesn't really apply to cars going 1000 scale miles per hour and can't switch lanes, but the the strategy is there, try to hang on in the gutters, and crank in the good lanes, avoid the wrecks and don't hit the wall and you have a good shot to win...

Yes, I realize the argument is there that everyone has to run the gutter and that the chances are they will all get less points as well, but you simply don't get rewarded for keeping the pack close to you.

Like I said in my last post, either way in fun, and it's the people that make the race....

As for marshals....  we've all gotten mad at them and we have all thumbed someone off putting on another car or gotten caught watching the rest of the race while someone is lying upside down and on fire in front of us, it just happens. But you gotta know it happens to everyone and it pretty much evens itself out, so drivers need to relax and stay on the track, and marshals need to pay attention, enough said. :wave:


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

I understand it would still work Marty, I just don't see it working fairly once the number of racers surpasses the number of lanes and/or lane rotation comes into play. 

I agree on the Nascar comment. A format which includes all participants at the same time can not be translated to a fixed number of lanes that can't support the total number of participants at the same time. Ironically, up to the moment the checkered flag drops, in 1:1 racing everyone has the same amount of time in which to compete. That could not be said for lap-limited scale racing involving heats, to me that creates an unfair environment.

It is all fun though. :thumbsup:


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

What if one guy wrecks into another's lane on the back of the track? 

That falls into the catagory of "That's Racing" Gene:woohoo:
All i got to say is shovel nose bodies:wave:
Rick


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## medic57 (Mar 3, 2008)

> and wreck running drivers


Gene, Have you ever tried to set a car down on the track with your thumb and forfinger? Stands to reason that your thumb and forfinger might be in 2 other lanes at the same time, since lanes are onlr 1/4 inch apart. Simple fact is, is that drivers need to stop before they get to the wreck.


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

medic57 said:


> Gene, Have you ever tried to set a car down on the track with your thumb and forfinger? Stands to reason that your thumb and forfinger might be in 2 other lanes at the same time, since lanes are onlr 1/4 inch apart. Simple fact is, is that drivers need to stop before they get to the wreck.


It is a two way street for sure, but reaction time doesn't always allow a driver to stop. In my opinion a marshall should never attempt to put a car on the track in traffic, and the consequences of that fall on the wrecked driver as it should.


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## Slott V (Feb 3, 2005)

*Cat hands*

Ever seen Tom Baker marshall a corner?  I need a slo-mo replay. LMAO

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v614/medic57/?action=view&current=MVI_0539.flv


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## blubyu (May 4, 2008)

Medic57 if your holding the car on the sides you will be in 2 lanes for sure. Try holding it in front and rear & drop it in the slot? I always let traffic go before putting there car back on - STAY ON and Quit Crying.


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

Well, another weekend, and we are finding out what is working best for us is laps limited with crash and burn and a point system. We have raced the lap and a half drag race for years and used a point system with that, so it's basically the same thing with a longer race. We don't have corner marshals, so we yell at other drivers on the street as we drive home from the race.
The NASCAR Comparison--- When nascar throws the yellow flag, everyone pits and gets lined up for the next green flag. That's kind of how we see each heat. At the end of each heat, you pit, and line up at the line for the next green flag. I can see how you could 'almost' lose a lap for 'almost' staying up with the lead pack, but, if you're fourth in the heat, you're fourth in the heat, so you get fourth place points for the heat. The DOS based program I use is very versitile. If you're racing ten laps, it finishes the race after the last car passes the finish line, or if the leader makes another lap after finishing the race. It then scores you by place and keeps points for the entire race. If it comes up a tie somewhere at the end, it gives the better place to the one who had the fastest lap time between the tied competitors. It's pretty straight forward. And, it's a blast!
My real question is... Are there any commercial tracks out there that prefer the laps limited format?

www.myspace.com/northtexasslotcars

Rich 43


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## Jim Norton (Jun 29, 2007)

*Scored racing*

Years ago, we faced the issues of trying to run a race with marshalls and keeping track of laps (i.e. before computers).

What we came up with is a method of "scored" racing.

What this means is as follows: We run ten "heat races" in each of the four lanes. A heat race can be how ever many laps you determine. We typically go 5 laps.

If everybody finishes the 5 laps, the heat race is concluded and first place is scored a "1", second a "2" and so forth. The goal is to have the lowest score after 40 heats (10 heats x 4 lanes).

Of course, it is rare 4 drivers will finish each and every heat without a crash. When crashes occur, the scoring is as follows: The first driver to wreck is scored a "4." He then sits out and the remaining 3 drivers start the heat again and race for the determined 5 laps. Should another crash occur in this same heat than that driver is scored a "3" and the remaining 2 drivers race for the win. Once a winner is determined the score is recorded and the next heat begins. After 10 heats the drivers switch lanes.

What this method does is:

Eliminates the turn marshalls
Eliminates complicated lap computation
Insures close and tight racing (new race every 5 laps)
Keeps track of position through scoring 
And provides a race typically lasting 2 to 2.5 hours

We have done this since I was 14 years old (1976) and have been very pleased. 

Jim Norton
Huntsville, Alabama


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## afxgns (Jul 6, 2006)

AfxToo said:


> Nothing worse than a good horse ending up in the crapper, especially when you are still onboard. How many flushes does it take to get that thing to disappear down the hole and how do you keep from getting sucked down with it? English or western saddle?
> 
> Laps or time, either way works for me. Convergence around the space-time continuum racing format would work for me too. Quality time with controller in hand and racing buds standing alongside is all it takes for me to enjoy a day at the track. Minor details like formats and rotation schemes, clockwise vs. anti-clockwise direction, lane colors, and other such minutia is so far down on the list to be inconsequential. I just can't imagine anything resembling HATE entering into the picture where slot cars are involved.


Wow,
I guess I need to watch it around this crowd.
Let's rephrase shall we:
*I STRONGLY DISLIKE TIME/DISTANCE RACING.*
HERE'S WHY.

We like to try to get new folks involved in the sceen around here (KCMO) If you have a guy that runs for the first time and you have him running 12 minutes against this crowd, they will end up 8-10 laps down, if they're lucky. Once they see the scores, they won't be back.
If you run lapped heats, you get folks thru quicker. You seed guys so that they can actually WIN a heat. And beleive it or not, there are many folks who drive better in a short lapped heat than a long drawn out distance run.
They both have their place, it's fun to see exactly how you match up to the guys up front, but it is also fun to WIN once in a while.

Our club has chosen to run ONLY time/distance and will not change, no matter what. That's were I'm comin' from.


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

You have a point AFX. For years I've seen slot car tracks come and go down here, and it's not for lack of interest. The fresh blood usually gets blown all over the track. Let me clarifiy. A track down here goes through this cycle, everytime.
First off- every race is run with timed heats. It's usually 5 to 7 bucks to run one car in a race. So, you have 8-10 people show up with a box of cars and a love for the sport. With more people watching, you run a race. People watching get involved, more people find out about it, more show up to race. The track owner is making money, people are buying parts and cars and decals, everyone is having fun. 
But, everyone starts to notice that the same 3 or 4 guys win the race every week. Even if one of them has a problem, it just means you place better, but they are so far ahead of everyone else, that it may not be possible. So, how are they running so good? Well, some people are just naturally talented, some just can't drive, but it's amazing how many interpretations you can get out of 'box stock'. As the weeks go by, the rules get bent further. 
All this, means that the guy walking in off the streets doesn't have a chance. And he may not be able to buy anything anyway. I know a couple of tracks where one guy would just buy up everything when a shipment came in, just so no one else could be competitive. 
The result, is the 10 - 15 racers that came in enjoying the sport, realize they don't have a chance to win, and the entry fee they pay every week is just padding the win slip of one of the few at the top, so, people quit coming.
Most tracks last a year or two.

(break)



Okay Im back. That was just too sad. I've seen probably twelve tracks come and go like that. There has to be a way to break that cycle.

Rich

www.myspace.com/northtexasslotcars


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

After racing for months at other peoples tracks, I still like the laps limited format.


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

Still an interesting topic...


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## slotking (May 27, 2008)

> You seed guys so that they can actually WIN a heat. And beleive it or not, there are many folks who drive better in a short lapped heat than a long drawn out distance run


I have not seen this!

To me, it's just psychological.
if you have a 1 lap race, everyone will think racing was real close!
"wow I only lost a by a few inches" but you will still find the same people winning.

or even racing fast cars vs slow cars
in a t-jet race, the guy my win by 1 or 2 laps
but at the speed of a super stock car, that 1 or 2 laps may be 10 or more.

I like timed races with marshals
it really helps the new racers stay in the race


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## gonegonzo (Jan 18, 2006)

I run crash and burn on my tracks . When I have a race for my group , I announce that it is non-sanctioned to allow the crash and burn format . I race with a basement/garage circuit club . The sanctioning body races timed events with a race management program . 

The reason I run crash and burn is that I do not have a race management program . However I am installing Track Mate soon .

Personally I like the crash and burn with the exception of one issue . When ya'll run crash and burn , who counts the laps ? We have a gentleman's agreement that we will all honestly count our own laps . However , we all know that in the heat of the race , you can easily loose your count .

Also , lately we have another member without race management that came up with a format he calls ''Last Man Standing" . If you crash after 1 full lap, your car leaves the track until there is only 2 competitors . When there is only two racers left , they continue to race until one crashes or the car in second place passes the car leading the race . That insures that both remaining racers will race rather than just sandbag it around the track .

Gonzo


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