# What the heck is it with these IPMS judges?



## OKCmike (Aug 22, 2010)

Hey Guys,
Please allow me to vent and let me know if I'm right to feel insulted or if I'm just being a sore loser. This past weekend I attended/entered my first model contest held by local IPMS here in OKC called SoonerCon. I entered my copy of the Model Builder I recently completed into the humor category which ended up having only two other entries in that area. Below are photos of first place, fat lil airplane and second place a surfboard with a decal on it. W.T.H.


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## Chinxy (May 23, 2003)

okomike, I agree with you about IPMS. Now I know how these guys work cause I've been going to my IPMS for 10 years now and I'm also one of the judges in IPMS. Now I remember the last time I judged one of the other judges got into a big argument with me over one of the kits to where the head judge had to jump in. For these guys Military or something to do with the military takes over. My Colossal Beast toke second over a little 48th indean figure that was really not that good. No weather like there should have been. So it's not you, it's IPMS. Now I also have a few thoughts on Wonderfest contest but I'll keep that to myself. 
For you all I can say is keep modeling. With my IPMS 10 years ago military models was all they did. Now they are wide open to our kind of stuff. So they can and do change. You just have to be very active in the group. I've placed 1 place in Sci Fi and Figures where 10 years ago that would have never happened. Things change with time. Keep building and take them to your IPMS.


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## Roy Kirchoff (Jan 1, 1970)

Just wondering since your model is so elaborate if it would have been better to enter it in the diorama catagory.

Great work by the way. :thumbsup:


~RK~


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## mcdougall (Oct 28, 2007)

Mike...You were ROBBED!!!
Mcdee


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## Chinxy (May 23, 2003)

mcdougall said:


> Mike...You were ROBBED!!!
> Mcdee


I agree!!!!!!


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## OKCmike (Aug 22, 2010)

Chinxy,
I get what you're saying about IPMS being all about military stuff. Besides myself and two other club brothers (not IPMS, but a rival club we have), there were only half a dozen or so figures entered into the thing. My Wrightson's Frankenstein, took third place behind a C.F.B.L. and B.O.F. which didn't bother me at all- they were really nice builds but those two shown in pic.s really burn my-well ya know. One thing I did notice/find peculiar and I'm not putting them down because they were really fine builds is that all the planes, tanks, ships were immaculate, looking as if they had just come off the assembly line. I don't think I saw one that had any weathering or battle damage.
Oh and another thing, tell me did the IPMS judges in your region go over each and every model wearing an opti-visor and using an LED light- these guys did. WTF!
Roy- On my entry form I wrote diorama/humor, the judges actually moved a lot of the models around into the categories they felt proper.


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## OKCmike (Aug 22, 2010)

Thanks McD, Chin, Roy for the sympathy, I really appreciate it! I think maybe the IPMS dudes in this region are a bunch of bigoted anti-figurites.


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## Mark McGovern (Apr 25, 1999)

Mike,

IF the judges did their job fairly, they may have felt that there were problems with your work that don't appear in the photos. Are any molding flaws removed from the items you used? Are the seams all filled as needed? Is the application of your paint smooth, with no drips or inappropriate texture (like dust or hair trapped in the finish)? I've judged at many IPMS contests myself, and can tell you that lots of extra work won't count for much if it isn't done competently.

But - is it possible that the judges did NOT do their job fairly? Yes. As hard as it tries, the IPMS simply cannot purge itself of nepotism. It could very well be that the box stock airplane took First Place over your diorama because the builder is a member of the host club. This kind of behavior stinks, but it happens - and not only at IPMS events.

My advice to you would be to take Chinxy's second paragraph to heart and attend all the other local shows in your IPMS region that you can. You'll show 'em! :thumbsup:


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## OKCmike (Aug 22, 2010)

Thanks Mark for your comments. It is true that no model of mine is completed without a dog or cat hair in it (lol) as the ol lady has three cats and I got a Chow. For this reason, I do look over my builds with an opti-visor and pick'em out/touch up as needed, also looking at seams etc. And of course there could still be things I missed, but how does a judge compare something that took as much work converting a figure as I did to a model consisting of two pieces with a decal and base (how hard to do a perfect job on that?) Looks to me like they would only resort to looking thru magnification as a finale determination on models looking equally well done to the naked eye. 
Maybe I'm just naive, only been back into this hobby two years and know nothing about contests but I'm definitely off to a start, learning- and by no means a quitter. 

Thanks again- all you guys


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## scottnkat (May 11, 2006)

My wife saw this and she replied "those judges have their heads up their @$#$%"

Granted, we can't see the quality of all three builds, but yeah - for sure enter it in other local contests


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## Facto2 (Nov 16, 2010)

Over the years I’ve been asked to judge at a number of shows. I usually say no. I just don’t enjoy doing it. Too stressful. But, any judge with a brain in his head had got to be able to look at a builtup and compare the amount of work that went into it to the other entries. Whatever problems they might have should be carefully weighed against how much work was put into the other entries. Just from the pics you showed, you should have won hands down.


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## Chinxy (May 23, 2003)

okomike - just keep modeling and showing your stuff at your IPMS. I did that for 10 years. At first I was not welcome and that's the truth! About 12 years ago I actually went there and they told me "We don't do that stuff so maybe you should go somewhere else". Then some of the member officers change in the club and 2 years later someone asked me to come back so I did. In 2003 someone in the club said "That's all he can do, you know the SciFi stuff". So in 2003 I bought a King Tiger Tank with zimmerit. It took Second Place in R2 of 2003 AND best of show for R2 so you just have to do things like that. After that they really starting to like my stuff. Sad thing about the Tiger Tank was I put little figure on the tank and made them look like ghosts. It only got a merit at Wonderfest in 2004 so I'm cursed at WF. Go figure!
Anyway, just keep going and do your stuff. It works for me. Now everyone at my IPMS along with two other IPMS clubs that are close know me.


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

The trouble with entries like yours is they really are not what "IPMS is all about". Ive been to IMPS shows off and on since my first one in 1983 or so, hosted my the club I belonged to back then. Right away you knew that was a military themed show as the head judge was Shep Paine. Most of the categories were set up for military vehicles and aircraft. There was ONE figure catagory, ONE ship category, ONE car category, and probably 40 military categories. Oh, and at that time IPMS was really IMPS with P meaning Plastic. Not that you had much resin but if the model was not polystyrene plastic it was not elgible for entry. The only exception there was that figures could be metal, as that was the traditional figure medium.

Today IMPS shows are still really geared toward the SGF's (Slobbering German Freaks) and people that build targets (airplanes). Sci Fi, figures, humor, etc. and even cars tend to be secondary or even tertiary as far as both interest goes and also attention when it comes to judging.

One thing too, is that it is still up to you to sell your kit. Why does it deserve to win. What did you do to make it better, etc. If you fill out your entry card and leave all the detail areas blank, the judge has nothing to go on. On the other hand, to play devils advocate, the surf board guy may have explained his idea, described how he carved and sanded the board, explained the painting and decaling techniques he used. Just saying...

IMPS is about color accuracy, adding minute details that no one can see, spending 40,000 hours on a three inch airplane, etc. Fun stuff really doesnt fit with their scheme. 

I cant say I am a sore loser or anything. I have won enough awards at various shows that I dont even enter any more. Not because of any one real reason but mostly been there done that and the main complaints I have with any show are about judging, and categories. So I go now, hit the dealers rooms, glance and the often mediocre stuff in teh show room, and go home. I see much better work online to be honest.


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## Mark McGovern (Apr 25, 1999)

Mike,

Two more ideas to consider:

Join the OKC chapter. Even though modelers like us are in the minority, most clubs welcome new members with open arms. IPMSers are like the members of this forum, in that they're always ready to share tips and techniques. After all, the same wash and drybrush techniques that make a Sherman tank or P-40 Flying Tiger look realistic can be applied to a Star Wars subject or a Mummy as well.
Volunteer to judge. Most IPMS contests need help with judging, and this is done in teams of three. So you'll have two experienced people to help show you the ropes. There's no better way to learn what judges look for than to be one yourself. Of course, you won't be able to judge the category you've entered, so you'll recuse yourself from that one and someone else will serve as the third member of the team.
It's good to hear that you're not letting one bad experience keep you from competing. I've been doing it for fifteen years; there have been ups and downs for me, too. But mainly it's been fun and helped me hone my modeling skills.

Good luck at the next contest!


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## Mark McGovern (Apr 25, 1999)

djnick66 said:


> ...Today IMPS shows are still really geared toward the SGF's (Slobbering German Freaks) and people that build targets (airplanes)...IMPS is about color accuracy, adding minute details that no one can see, spending 40,000 hours on a three inch airplane, etc...


That's pretty harsh, don't you think, dj? Yes, IPMS contests have more "Triple A" (Aircraft, Armor, Automotive) categories - that's only because the membership reflects the modeling community as a whole. Look at the choice of kits in any model shop and what do you see? Mainly Triple A subjects, with our kind of models off in one corner; we are indeed a niche market.

Nor does IPMS judging stress color accuracy. At every judges' meeting I've ever attended, we have been instructed not to knock a model because of its color scheme. Instead, the emphasis has been on checking that the basics of construction and finishing have been executed well. The model is supposed to look as much as possible like the full-size subject, with as little evidence of it having been assembled from a kit as possible. I can't answer for Shep Paine, having never met the man (but I've heard stories...).

And, as for adding minute details - how well will you really be able to see the tiny seats of the Paragrafix photoetch set inside the Moebius 2001 Orion Space Clipper? I'm sorry to hear you don't compete in IPMS contests anymore. If Sci-Fi/Horror subjects remain a tiny minority of their entries, why would they feel the need to add more categories?


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Was the canopy frame on that Egg P-40 even painted!? :freak:


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## Rondo (Jul 23, 2010)

Sure the surfboard seems simple but have you ever tried to raise a miniature shark? :roll:

I feel your pain but you just can't take contest results too seriously. Usually they make some kind of sense but way too often, there is just no explaining them. That looks like the case with your model.

I don't have much desire to enter anymore. I've won when I shouldn't have and placed lower when any fool with eyes could see... 

So the awards aren't much motivation. But if you think of it as a show and you are the "talent", well you realize that a lot of folks will enjoy looking at your work (definately the case with your diorama) and the awards are just a sideshow. It works for me.


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## jackshield (May 20, 2008)

he was definitely robbed, i was there. imho, he shoulda walked with 3 first place for those categories. the creature i brought was just for filler, as the figure category was not represented well last year. this was also my first time entering a con contest. i had two others in the horror that i thought were better than creech. and he got snubbed completely in sci-fi which was totally wrong!

i'll get those pics on website tonight mike, and you can post a link.


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## Disco58 (Apr 10, 2011)

That 'Model Builder' looks familiar -- I've seen close up pics (I presume it's the same one) in Amazing Figure Modeler or on a forum (here?) with a detailed explanation of how the kid was converted from a Hawk Models "Frantics" drummer I think. That thing rocks!:thumbsup::woohoo: It's funny, and the background details are absolutely amazing; it takes some real talent to make scale models of scale models! I like the Eggplane it was up against, and the surfboard idea was indeed very original, but.... This should have been a no-brainer.
As an aside, I'm President of the local IPMS chapter, and I try to recruit members all the time, but I keep hearing, "I build sci-fi or figures. Aren't you/isn't IPMS a military group"? My background is in Naval aviation (F-14's at NAS Miramar), and if it flew off the pointy end of a ship I liked it, but I'm not a military subject builder anymore. For various reasons I have just flat lost interest. I like a lot of the figures and the inherent creativity they allow.


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## OKCmike (Aug 22, 2010)

Thanks again guys for all your comments, suggestions, experiences, etc. You all have helped me gain a little more insight into how things go in the modeling world and I feel a little more recomposed now, so to speak. I just may volunteer next year like McG. suggested to see both sides of the coin and for the experience, I am a closet ww2 airplane lover, just haven't built one in a really long time. I really enjoy a wide variety of subject matter in modeling, however figures are my first love and always will be since I was a kid doing all those Aurora figures. Building and painting a cool looking figure just seems more like creating a work of art to me than a machine (IMHO). 
Disco, my entry was copied from J. Bertges article in AFM and not the original but I did post a thread on my copy of it here on H.T. I really love that model even though it was not an original ideal on my part and did give credit in comment section of my entry form to the original artist's concept.
Here's a link to some photo's from the contest, some nice builds shown, thanks Jack, for posting those. Check out the Galley and Paddle Wheel boat, guy's builds blew me away with all the detailing in it!

http://amsomodeling.webs.com/apps/photos/album?albumid=11784448


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## rkoenn (Dec 18, 2007)

I agree on IPMS contests and the definite bias towards the 3 As. I also agree with Mark that if we want more recognition from IPMS for our corner of the group we need to participate more. I admit some 6+ years ago I stopped going to the local meetings as all I ever saw were military subjects. I felt funny if I brought in one of my geeky subjects as most of the members were 10+ years older than me and a rather conservative bunch of guys, they were nice guys though. I once brought in a highly detailed Saturn 1B model rocket, a relatively big one, and that didn't get too much attention from them either. I never did bring in any figures or such so I don't know what the reaction would be to that.

I also entered the local contest last year with half a dozen figure models and would have to agree the judging was not too good in that category. I mean an Aurora Frankenstein with red and green clothing won a third place! I did win 1st with my Moebius Frankenstein but my other models, one of which got a Wonderfest 3rd place and others which got merits at the Fest, did not even place. I suppose giving all three places to me would have been wrong which I agree with but a Frankenstein with no sense of propriety in his clothing getting a place! The January contest in Jacksonville I got first with my MIM Phantom and some 2nd and 3rd places. I like it when they award multiple places to deserving entries which appears to be a trend these days. But it is definitely likely that the people judging our genre are three As people and have very little understanding of our work as well as having a negative psyche about our subjects. I thought your entry was great and extremely well done and definitely don't understand how the other two beat you but I am not surprised either. I build models for my own pleasure and contests are simply a sideline mainly to get them displayed to more people. But it is always nice to get recognition for a model well done.

Bob K.


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## Mars - 1 (Dec 6, 2002)

I havn't competed in a model contest for years, and no longer have any urge to do so. I have run into the problem of IPMS judges who have no interest or knowledge of the subjects that they are judging. These guys might, and probably do know every detail on an M4 or Panther, (or any make of automobile) but just consider sci-fi or many figures to be un-interesting enough to be shoved into the "misc." catagory. I have helped judge many contests and have always gotten into "heated" discussions with IPMS judges over this. I have nothing against modelers who will spend a month super detailing an insturment panel, but if it can't be seen on the finished model, how can it be judged? I've done a great deal of military modeling, and still dabble in pre- WWI aircraft, but figures have always been my favorite. As an interesting sidenote, I was once disqualified from a contest by IPMS judges because I used an airbrush to paint my 1/6 figures! But really, you should have won. I've got many more horror stories on this subject, but I'll just shut up now.


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

Mark McGovern said:


> If Sci-Fi/Horror subjects remain a tiny minority of their entries, why would they feel the need to add more categories?


Well I dont think they go out of their way to encourage growth in these areas. But it may be a two way street. There are national figure modelling shows and national sci fi modelling shows. In theory a couple of those could be combined with an IPMS show to make one big model show with a huge broad appeal to all kinds of modellers. But mostly the sci fi guys go to Wonderfest, the figure guys to to something like the Atlanta Model Soldier Society show, the tank and airplane guys go to IPMS... 

If IPMS did support some of the "fringe" categories more, perhaps they would get more entrants rather than discouraging modelers, ticking them off, etc.


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## Ace Airspeed (May 16, 2010)

OKCmike,

I'm willing to bet that there aren't too many modelers that work at your level of excellence.........why submit your work to rivet counting, uninformed, unappreciative judging?

I'm sure the viewing public had much more understanding and favorable impressions of your work than the judges.


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## rhinooctopus (May 22, 2011)

*Contests, Contests and more trophies to judge!*

Guys, I live on the Oregon coast and (to my knowledge) have no IPMS chapter. In fact, the closest other figure model builder to me (that I know of) lives 2 1/2 hours away! Consider yourself fortunate to have fellow figure modelers close by that you can "schmooze with". (You lucky guys!)
As for entering competitions...in the past (when I lived in MN and was able to compeat at Wonderfest, etc.), (along with winning numerous trophies) I was "shot down" by the judges where I thought my entree(s) were really good. A few times I was fortunate enough to get "feedback" from judges, which was helpful in showing me where I could "hone" my skills.
I've gotten to the point in "my" hobby where I enjoy showing my work rather than compeating. Judges are only human. They have their opinion (which doesn't always agree with ours). I'd be happy to bring some of my "work" to shows and just be able to "show" what I have done...as I enjoy seeing what other figure modelers (and those that build vehicles, etc.) have "created".
If you like to compeat...KEEP ON TRUCKIN'! Whatever...KEEP THE HOBBY FUN!

My 2 cents,
Phil K


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## Y3a (Jan 18, 2001)

I went to an IPMS meet in Annandale, VA. back in the early 80's. LOTS of kits on display. 10-15 Sci-Fi Kits were there. Most were lousy jobs. They were singled out as why the IPMS didn't take Sci-Fi seriously. The Non-military aircraft were also laughed at by the treadheads n such. I realized these snobs weren't that good of modelers in the first place. I still laugh at them whenever I see their work. I'm not impressed with them at all.


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## MadCap Romanian (Oct 29, 2005)

Enter this in the monster Hobbies Build A Monster Contest this year!

www.monster-hobbies.com


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## Mark McGovern (Apr 25, 1999)

Rondo said:


> ...you just can't take contest results too seriously. Usually they make some kind of sense but way too often, there is just no explaining them...if you think of it as a show and you are the "talent", well you realize that a lot of folks will enjoy looking at your work (definately the case with your diorama) and the awards are just a sideshow.


Now *there's* a healthy attitude! Plus, you still get the benefits of talking face to face with other modelers and seeing their work up close and personal. And leave us not forget the Vendor Rooms!




rkoenn said:


> ...a Frankenstein with no sense of propriety in his clothing getting a place!


Bob, this goes back to the remark I made above, about judges making their decisions with consideration for paint colors. I would hope that the red-and-green Frankenstein was better assembled and painted than the next best model that didn't place at all. Assuming that's true, the judges might've raised their eyebrows over the paint scheme but should've done no more; it's a slippery slope to say a color is *wrong* (the Aircraft and Armor guys will back me up on this, I'm sure). But let's suppose they were looking at _your_ model and red-and-green for First and Second places. Then - all other things about the models being equal - an argument could be made that the Monster in black clothing should get First Place on the basis that it was the most authentic representation of the subject.




Mars - 1 said:


> ...I have run into the problem of IPMS judges who have no interest or knowledge of the subjects that they are judging.


That's only happened to me once, and then when I was helping to judge figures. I had to step back when the team got to the Sci-Fi/Fantasy Figures category, at my chapter's own show. My entry was a Gigantic Frankenstein, and on the entry form I mentioned the fact that seams had been left or created on the model where they would appear on real clothing. Well a genuine dolt made up the third spot on the team, to debate whether Big Franky or another model should get First Place. The dolt read my note and said, "I ain't buyin' that - he's just makin' excuses", and awarded the other model First Place. The dolt appearently never noticed that there were no seams apparent on Franky's head, hands, or shoes - only the insides of his coat sleeves, his shoulders (but not the collar), and the sides of his pants. The other two judges were friends of mine and, like me, were constrained in the interests of impartiality from arguing with the dolt on behalf of my model.

This is the one instance in my fifteen years of competition where I've been pranged by someone who didn't know the subject on which he was judging. The usual practice at the judges' meeting at IPMS contests is for the Head Judge to get everybody sorted out according to the models they build, so the right judges are in a category they know something about. I admit that I've helped judge categories with which I've been unfamiliar, but always in the company of people who were well acquainted with the subject.

None of this means that the judging process isn't subjective or above corruption; I just want to state that the IPMS doesn't habitually send only Triple A builders to judge Figure or Sci-Fi models.




djnick66 said:


> If IPMS did support some of the "fringe" categories more, perhaps they would get more entrants rather than discouraging modelers, ticking them off, etc.


dj, It's a chicken and the egg situation: if a contest host sees many entries in a given class, the club will offer more specialized categories within that class. So, in the Aircraft class, you'll see a lot of categories because most chapters get a lot of aircraft entries. The only thing I hate more than competing in a generic "Sci-Fi/Horror, All Types & Scales" category is winning First Place because mine was the only entry there. Nothing would make me happier than to go to the IPMS Nationals and see a category like "Class 3: Figures, Horror Movie Subjects, Universal Studios, 1/8 Scale & Smaller". But nobody's going to spend the time and effort to make trophies to cover categories like that unless they think they're going to get enough entries to be worth it.

Which is why I keep encouraging members of these forums to enter IPMS shows, if not join their local chapters. It isn't a case of, "If you build it they will come". It's more like, "if we keep getting lots of Sci-Fi/Horror entries, we'll add categories for them".



rhinooctopus said:


> ...I live on the Oregon coast and (to my knowledge) have no IPMS chapter.


rhino, here are the chapters I found for your state on the IPMS web site: http://www.ipmsusa.org/ChapterDirectory/state_select.asp?ST=OR. You might want to visit the site yourself and see whether there are closer chapters in southern Washington or northern California. Happy hunting!




Y3a said:


> ...Most were lousy jobs. They were singled out as why the IPMS didn't take Sci-Fi seriously.


Y, that was thirty years ago; things might've changed a tad since then. The models may have been lousy, but the chapter can't pick who shows up to their contests. When modelers like us quit entering IPMS shows, the treadheads _win_.




MadCap Romanian said:


> Enter this in the monster Hobbies Build A Monster Contest this year!


That goes without saying, Trevor - but I'm glad you did! :thumbsup:


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## Y3a (Jan 18, 2001)

I would rather show my stuff through photos and Youtube than being a member of yet another club full of petty know-it-alls who really don't. I don't do ANY hobby clubs anymore. I was in a Scale RC Boat club, RC Airplane club, Model RR Club, and each had senior members who were jerks, or know-it-all's. I'm too old to be nice to those types anymore.


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## miniature sun (May 1, 2005)

It's a problem that isn't confined to the IPMS or to the USA. Here in the UK I gave up entering contests years ago due to the nepotism and backslapping that goes on at model shows here. I've seen awards go to friends of the judges, to people percieved as 'celebrities' because they once had a feature in a magazine, and, on one occasion, to a model that was 90% pre-built from the factory.
Not only are many judges not experts in the field they are judging, many of them haven't built a kit in years, preferring instead to pontificate over other peoples hard efforts as self-appointed arbiters of what makes a good model, yeah like they ever knew that in the first place.
I build for pleasure and part of that pleasure is sharing my efforts with likeminded folks on forums like this.
I guess the adage should be "If you can't build, judge"


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## Els (Mar 13, 2011)

My local IPMS group only has a couple of figure/Sci-Fi builders. If those couple of builders enter their kits in the local competition, they cannot be judges. That takes the few subject matter experts out of the judging pool, and leaves the judging in the hands of people who might have the best intentions but not the most expertise on those types of kits. It would be the same thing asking me to judge armor kits. I can look to see if the seams are filled and the paint isn't running, but other than that, I know nothing. They could add all the PE and extra details in the world and it would be lost on me.

So, when I bring a Sci-fi or figure kit to a meeting, I try to point out as much information as I can about the kit and techniques used so that maybe when it comes time for them to judge they will be more informed. Its just like anything else. The more of us that join the clubs, the more experience, influence and fun we will have there.
Els


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## frankenstyrene (Oct 5, 2006)

*A rubric would fix this.*

One of the very few good things about public education these days is the widespread use of rubrics on projects and large assignments students have to produce. 

A rubric, in case the term isn't familiar, is a set scale of specific criteria the "judge" (teacher) will use to grade whatever is turned in. It explains to students exactly how a project or assignment will be judged, so the person doing the work will know what's required for the best possible grade. 

Well-written rubrics give examples of excellent, good, fair and poor work in order (to as large a degree as possible) to eliminate accusations of favoritism, arbitrariness or lazy judging. At the same time, it gives judges the ability to defend giving bad grades. ("I gave you the rubric...did you read it? Well here's a new copy showing why you got a D- ...")

My point: I don't know if there's a rubric used by judges (IPMS, WF, wherever) but if there's not there should be one. 

If there are such rubrics, they should be publicized well in advance of all judged events so entrants can know exactly what judges will and won't be looking for. 

If, on the other hand, judging is all a kinda nebulous, arbitrary, gut-feeling thing (I have no idea and ain't suggesting it is) then no result should really surprise or impress anyone. Seeing superior work ignored in favor of clearly sub-par work should not anger anyone...nor should winning an award every year you enter be considered anything but meaningless IF you don't know exactly what the judges were looking for. If you can't know WHY something was or wasn't chosen as good or bad, the whole process really is meaningless, imho (as a two-time entrant at WF, bronzes both times, I have zero axe to grind and this is a belief I've only recently come to, btw). 

A standardized, publicized judging rubric would go a long way toward settling all uncertainties, arguments and hard feelings. You could still disagree with the judges, but at least you'd have a much better idea of why they decided as they did.


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## Roy Kirchoff (Jan 1, 1970)

^ Would this be considered a rubric? ^

http://www.wonderfest.com/hintsntips.html

And this?

http://www.ipmsusa.org/competition_handbook/CH_index.html

They both seem very clear to me.


~RK~


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## OKCmike (Aug 22, 2010)

Ok, what I've gleamed from you guys is: 

1. Keep it fun. 
2. Keep attending/entering IPMS contests with the mind set that's it's a show for the public and the awards 
are secondary. (I like this one a lot, and remember folks looking and crackin' a grin or giving a chuckle.)
3. Get to know IPMS members and volunteer to judge at contests. Learn what they look for and maybe not 
not take things so personal.
4. Keep it fun.

frankenstyrene- a rubric system would be a good thing to have implemented in the manner of feedback, however I suspect that it would be to much of a time consuming effort for them to do. Each entry form had a space for judges to enter comments which could have been used for that purpose but none did. It just takes them so long to look over each and every entry with their magnifier glass and flashlights. But what do I know, I'm just a third rate model builder LOL. Thanks a lot guys, it's been an interesting and informative thread, I've really enjoyed hearing all your thoughts on the subject.


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## frankenstyrene (Oct 5, 2006)

Roy Kirchoff said:


> ^ Would this be considered a rubric?


Indeed they would -- thanks for linking them, I'd not seen them before.


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## frankenstyrene (Oct 5, 2006)

OKCmike said:


> frankenstyrene- a rubric system would be a good thing to have implemented in the manner of feedback, however I suspect that it would be to much of a time consuming effort for them to do.


Possibly it would be; the main point of a rubric (in education world, which is rarely the real world) is for the student to grow as a result from getting the feedback, and that's a point I do agree with. But with 100s of entries, that could be...complex.

However, let's say the WF judges use some kind of quick and dirty checklist based on the rubric - instead of relying on their own memory of all the rules (especially something like that IPMS list, whew!), **and maybe they do that now, I dunno** then that checklist, with comments, could be placed with the judged entry while the decision is recorded elsewhere. Most questions in the mind of the entrant would thereby be answered because they're left with the rubric the judges actually used.

It COULD work that way...but then I'm not a judge so I don't want to be seen as telling anyone how easy their job could be if I'm not the one doing it.


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## Mark McGovern (Apr 25, 1999)

frankenstyrene said:


> Indeed they would -- thanks for linking them, I'd not seen them before.


And if I may add, the IPMS Competition Handbook is generally referenced in the Contest Rules that most chapters publish prior to the shows, and as the final arbitor if there is a dispute at the show.


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## TAY666 (Jan 8, 2000)

OKCmike said:


> Ok, what I've gleamed from you guys is:
> 
> 1. Keep it fun.
> 2. Keep attending/entering IPMS contests with the mind set that's it's a show for the public and the awards
> ...


Exactly!

I've been entering the contest at WF since 2003.
I never once have thought of it as a competition. (though that my in part be because the open judging system)
I look at is as a chance to share my work with everyone else.'
That is not to say I haven't been disappointed. Because I have been. I've put kits on the table that I thought for sure would at least earn a merit, and they didn't.
But the real prize for me, is when I see one of my models end up in someone else's photo album. If they liked it enough to take a picture of it, and then post it. I must have done something right.


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## Roy Kirchoff (Jan 1, 1970)

frankenstyrene said:


> Indeed they would -- thanks for linking them, I'd not seen them before.


I'm glad I could help. 


~RK~


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## PF Flyer (Jun 24, 2008)

At the risk of re-opening an old can of worms, do any of these rubrics (a term which, as a teacher, I detest almost as much as "assessment") speak to the issue of exactly what constitutes a "sculpt" or a "model?" As I recall from the other rather contentious thread, the major complaints about WF were about a prop that strained the definition of "model." Indeed, someone wondered--perceptively in my opinion--what would stop a taxidermist from entering his/her work in such a contest.


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## Mark McGovern (Apr 25, 1999)

PFF,

My take on your question is that, a model is a representation of some other object. It could be a 1/5hundred-something starship _Enterprise_, a 1/25 scale King Kong, or a 1/1 scale bust of Frankenstein's monster. These items you can get as kits, or they could all be done as original sculpts (as indeed the masters for the models were). If somebody were to make, say, a full-size replica of a _Lost in Space_ hand laser that would still be a model - unless it could really fire a laser! Such a reproduction could be entered in either a Science Fiction or a Miscellaneous category (since most Sci-Fi categories are broken down into Vehicles and Mecha) at an IPMS event. I can't answer for WonderFest.

To answer your last question, the work of a taxidermist is to preserve the outer parts of an animal. A model kit or sculpture could be made to represent that animal, but short of stretching a hide over the kit, it would not be an example of taxidermy. I'm not sure that the officials at any model show would allow a stuffed animal to be entered in the contest, any more than the officals at a taxidermy competition would allow a plastic model to be entered there.


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## Disco58 (Apr 10, 2011)

rhinooctopus said:


> Guys, I live on the Oregon coast and (to my knowledge) have no IPMS chapter.


1 in Salem, 1 in Albany, 2 in Portland. Of the two in Portland, one is for automotive, one is historical. Neither the Salem or Albany chapters list any genre preference. You always have the option of putting the word out and starting your own. To be an IPMS sanctioned/charter chapter you need a minimum of five IPMS members. There are no rules for what you build, or what you restrict your membership to building, at least as far as what they might enter into a contest, or to be representative of the chapter.


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

Mark McGovern said:


> PFF,
> To answer your last question, the work of a taxidermist is to preserve the outer parts of an animal. A model kit or sculpture could be made to represent that animal, but short of stretching a hide over the kit, it would not be an example of taxidermy. I'm not sure that the officials at any model show would allow a stuffed animal to be entered in the contest, any more than the officals at a taxidermy competition would allow a plastic model to be entered there.
> 
> Now, back to those thimble-rigging IPMS judges... :dude:


Modern fish taxidermy does not use any part of the fish. Basically you catch an X pound bass, take him to the shop (or even photograph him and realse the fish) and order a fiberglass/foam molded bass in the right size and weight range. The taxidermist airbrushes it up to match your fish. Its really very similar to noraml figure painting or some of those full size head busts like Frankenstein or the Thing. Actually you can buy the fish and paint him yourself!

http://www.mountthis.net/19-Bass-Largemouth-Full-Mount-Fish-Replica-p/basslargemouth19_30day.htm


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## ClubTepes (Jul 31, 2002)

Ya know, I've been in the IPMS for about 10 years and judged at contests for that same amount of time. And my primary interest is sci-fi.

I can't speak to what the chapter around you is like, but the work is/should be judged on how good it is, not how flashy or complex it is.

From the two pics you posted, one with your model in the background is not enough to tell if you were 'robbed' or not.

There could be a lot of reasons why your model didn't beat out the other two pieces.

For anyone claim bias against non-military subjects certainly isn't fair as I don't believe that is a military issue surfboard.

The hard reality might be that the judges simply found less wrong with the other two pieces.

Based on the photo with your piece in the background, it certainly looks like you put a lot of work into it. But that doesn't guarantee you an award.

Don't let this discourage you. Keep trying and I hope you win in the future.


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## Dave P (Jan 5, 2005)

^^^Well put. Another thing to consider is that you entered in the humor category. Is it funny? Or is it a diorama with a caricature figure? I do find the bitten surfboard with the seal graphic to be somewhat funny. Can't speak to the egg plane. Personally they don't do anything for me. And in any case, I echo what Tepes said. Can't tell anything from the photo, photos do hide a multitude of sins, and a flawless simple build will more than likely trump a complex piece that has flaws. Modeling basics come first.

Just my take. Not specifically judging your build. I can't see it well enough to have an opinion.


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## Jimmy B (Apr 19, 2000)

One really doesn't even have to enlarge the photo to see which of the 3 are superior. How can they make it that obvious they put the screws to you. If its any consolation great job. I wish the picture showed the rest of the top.


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## OKCmike (Aug 22, 2010)

Hey Jimmy B- thanks, everybody's entitled to their opinion and I'll not begrudge CultT and DaveP their's. I'm quite over it by now, like the teenie-boppers say: that was like so 5 minutes ago :lol:. There is a thread on the build in the Diorama area I did awhile back if you'd like to see more photos of it.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

I used to go to a local club, and they had a contest every month. I won a few, lost more, even won with sci fi subjects once or twice. Lost with airplanes that I thought were the best I ever did. But I developed a simple dislike for contests along the way. I build for my own enjoyment. The internet has brought me all the sharing I need - I'll post finished things here and at SSM, maybe at FineScale if I remember. At least I know I'm among people who actually know and like the subject I've built.


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## Lee Staton (May 13, 2000)

One thing I can contribute as "food for thought" in this thread, which comes from decades of IPMS contests and 22 WonderFests--sometimes as a judge in both. And I am not referring to the model pictured in this thread, as I can't see it up close and have no idea how it fits what I'm about to say!

When a modeler decides to create an ambitious, detailed scene, one thing I've noticed is the more stuff that's in it, usually the more likely you'll see uneven craftsmanship. Whether it's mechanics in a garage or a big street scene, the modeler tends to lose focus on quality and get distracted by trying to throw in everything and the kitchen sink. Maybe one or two items are well made and painted--but all of them? That's the real trick.

It's much easier to build one single item really well than fifty!

Again, I'm not referring to this scene's quality or the modeler. Just observing what is often seen as a judge and a discerning fan. Which doesn't mean I don't think the scenes are fun! But if you're judging craftsmanship, that's most often where it drops.

Lee


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## TAY666 (Jan 8, 2000)

Jimmy B said:


> One really doesn't even have to enlarge the photo to see which of the 3 are superior.


Not really.

Now, if you are judging by subject matter, size, or amount of stuff, or coolness, then yeah, the picture shows one is clearly above the other two.

But that isn't how a contest works.
The basics come first. Are all the seams invisible? No glue showing? Are there any brush strokes in the paint? Any hairs, pet fur, dust, etc?

Which is why they break out he optivisors, lights, and dental mirrors.
And why you can't fairly judge by photos alone.
If the basics are not up to snuff, then nothing else matters.
The amount of work put into the piece doesn't come into play, it is the quality of the work that matters.

I'm not dissing the kit.
I think it's cool.
I'm just being objective about the contest.
It's the same way I look at my own kits. I usually know my kits are not going to get anything when I enter them at WF. I know the flaws in them. The flaws that I chose not to go back and fix once they became apparent. Usually, because the fun of building the kit, outweighs the need to build at contest level for me personally.
Sometimes, I do bust my hump, pay attention to all the little details, and redo stuff as I find flaws. And those are usually the ones that earn a merit at WF. But other times, I personally can live with the little flaws. And that is all that really matters to me. That I am happy with the kit.


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## Bradleyfett (Jan 22, 2003)

I'm in the camp of not caring about the competition as much as having an opportunity to display, but one thing comes to mind:

I've never understood the divide between the different genres of modeling. The way I look at it, no matter what you build, there are things to be learned from builders in the other categories. ESPECIALLY if you are a sci-fi builder. Sci-fi in probably the genre that borrows the most from every other genre. After all, a sci-fi model can be an aircraft, spacecraft, car, figure, diorama, etc. I make it a point to take an interest in every other category at a contest/show; if you take the opportunity, you can gain much more from attending a show than you can ever get on the 'net.

M


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## Styrofoam_Guy (May 4, 2004)

I have lost contests where I thought I should have placed. I have seem home grown contest and I have won in cases where I didn't think I deserved it. It doesn't bother me any more.

The worst case against me was at an IPMS Regional contest where I was part of the judging for the Sci-Fi class. Because I entered in a category I removed myself from the judging but I heard everything they discussed. I had brought a scratch built, lit, model of Serenity from the show Firefly. They ignored all the documentation I had put down showing the build process. One judge said my weathering was terrible and so what if it was lit as other people have lit models before. Unfortunately the other judges did not bother to look at the model themselves but accepted that judgement.

Right after they finished judging that category I questioned their judging and asked why they didn't even bother to read any of the documentation I had put down. When they realized their error they tried to shoo me away and told me they had to rejudge the category. 

I told them they had made their choice and they can not change it just because I was there and pointed out their error. After that they were a bit more thorough reading what the modellers had included with their models. I really didn't care if I had won anything or not. On the plus side I hope those judged leaned something that day.

I did get the last laugh as I won People's choice for that model. It was also funny to watch some of the crowds reaction when I did not place in my category. The judges did go behind my back and got me an honorable mention for my model.



When I judge my first criteria is fit and finish. Seam lines, ejection pin marks, glue marks, paint finish etc. If you can not get these done right, I do not care how much aftermarket stuff you put on a model.


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## kit-junkie (Apr 8, 2005)

TAY666 said:


> Which is why they break out he *optivisors*, lights, and *dental mirrors*.


Am I the only one who thinks this is a bit "over the top"? :freak: Who, in the real world (a normal viewing environment), actually views the finished pieces with an optivisor and a dental mirror?


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

kit-junkie said:


> Am I the only one who thinks this is a bit "over the top"? :freak: Who, in the real world (a normal viewing environment), actually views the finished pieces with an optivisor and a dental mirror?


true, but in the real world one isnt trying to compare a bunch of pieces, a large percentage of which might all be of a similar, and very high, quality, and try to determine which one is "best".


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## RMC (Aug 11, 2004)

thats why I left IPMS years ago !.....
UNLESS ITS AN F-4 PHANTOM, VERSIONS "A THRU J"....THEY DONT WANT TO KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT !


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## kit-junkie (Apr 8, 2005)

razorwyre1 said:


> true, but in the real world one isnt trying to compare a bunch of pieces, a large percentage of which might all be of a similar, and very high, quality, and try to determine which one is "best".


 I "get" what's behind it. 

We're building plastic kits, not cutting diamonds. It's a matter of aesthetics and neatness, sure, but how far does one go with it? If something can't can't be seen from a normal viewing angle, it isn't meant to be seen. Why bother with a dental mirror? There is a point where it becomes ridiculous.


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## Disco58 (Apr 10, 2011)

kit-junkie said:


> I "get" what's behind it...There is a point where it becomes ridiculous.


Ridiculous he says...Ridiculous?! Well, you've obviously never been... oh, wait, yea, you're right, it really is sometimes. I've been both judge and contestant. It is a contest after all, and there is an expectation from the contestants that we do our utmost to find that 'one'. What exacerbates (my 'big' word for today!) the situation is when you're trying to find the best of a category, judging all against one another, and you have thirty-two Bf109's all lined up, next to a dozen or more P-47's, across from twenty plus P-51's, with eighteen Tiger/Panzers on the next table. That is a judge's nightmare. That's why the Bronze/. format for each entry was invented. Some like it, some don't, because they just have to have the "best" in the whole category, and sure as hell, if you didn't take note of every little detail they've added they whine like a two year old. I'm not crazy about judging for that reason, or at least I would prefer judging a category with more varied entries. We haven't had a show since I became club President a couple years ago, but we're looking at doing one next Spring. In my position I will be tasked with being a judge/head judge, and I can't begin to tell you how much I'm looking forward to that:freak:. I think I'll volunteer as the food judge!:thumbsup: We will definitely have a method for those who want to display their work, but don't necessarily want to be a contestant, which is where anything I do goes. Like anyone else, I like my ego stroked occasionally, but I don't want to get caught up in the award seeking mindset. I would just prefer an honest critique so I can improve my skills.


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## kit-junkie (Apr 8, 2005)

Disco58 said:


> and sure as hell, if you didn't take note of every little detail they've added they whine like a two year old.


 Hi Disco! Yeah, there are "those" people as well. Ugh... Different views of fun, I guess.


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## Jafo (Apr 22, 2005)

Dont forget that we here it the sci-fi/fantasy world have our share of "rivet counters" and as for judgeing, even WonderFest suffers. Ive seen more than a few "Gold" winners that clearly did NOT deserve it. In short enjoy the contest, or dont enter and enjoy it or get better!


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## dlots (Jun 14, 2005)

*judging ipms*

guys as someone who has judged in region twelve we go by the book and that is as follow
1. basis construction
2 paint application
3 decal application 
4 overall authenticity
when i judge it always get drummed in BASIC CONSTRUTION that is what makes the first pass so always remember that


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## jonfak (Apr 12, 2010)

I did judging yesterday at an IPMS contest. Point 1 at judges meeting, BASIC CONSTRUCTION. Seams, sanding, glue marks, etc. Sure the woo factor is there but if the simple parts are not done it gets marked down. I don't enter contests because my models SUCK, I hate filling and sanding. Our IPMS chapter has several sci-fi modelers, we are accepted. We just give grief to all the other categories.


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## Ductapeforever (Mar 6, 2008)

Having served as an IPMS judge, I can let you all in on our little secret. We judge on BASICS first and foremost ! That means, have all seems been taken care of? Holes and Gaps filled? Are there any irregularities caused by sanding? Are there excess glue marks? Are there silvering on the decals, are they intact and applied straight? Have pop out pin marks been removed? etc. If any ONE of these problems are found, sorry to say your model will not be conscidered for further competition ! No matter how nice the presentation or number of bells and whistles , aftermarket products or working features, big, or small. I have seen Dioramas that were incredible, and loaded with detail knocked out of competition because a decal had silvered on a vehicle used in the display. IPMS Regionals are the Big Leagues, like going to the playoffs in the sports world, you better bring your A game or be prepared for disappointment. If you are a Little League or Pee Wee level player you are asking for upset when you go to 'The Show' and don't belong there.


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## Chinxy (May 23, 2003)

Well I've judged in IPMS and it is hard. When I judged sometimes we would have a big disagreement and the pres would have to step in. But that was a long time (3 years ago). 
Now on a side note - My local IMPS this month just made me "Master Modeler in Science Fiction". Big title.


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## rkoenn (Dec 18, 2007)

Chinxy said:


> Now on a side note - My local IMPS this month just made me "Master Modeler in Science Fiction". Big title.


Congratulations Chinx, "Master Modeler in Science Fiction." Wow, that sounds dangerous! Do they have a "Master Modeler of Horror Figures" category?

Bob K.


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## BronzeGiant (Jun 8, 2007)

All I can add is that there's a reason why the IPMS judges are called "rivet Nazis" and around here IPMS stands for International Pi$$ amd Moan Society....

Steve


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## BronzeGiant (Jun 8, 2007)

TAY666 said:


> But the real prize for me, is when I see one of my models end up in someone else's photo album. If they liked it enough to take a picture of it, and then post it. I must have done something right.


That's my ultimate goal, is to have someone else take a picture of one of my builds because they want to remember it.

Steve


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## nautilusnut (Jul 9, 2008)

> Having served as an IPMS judge, I can let you all in on our little secret. We judge on BASICS first and foremost ! That means, have all seems been taken care of? Holes and Gaps filled? Are there any irregularities caused by sanding? Are there excess glue marks? Are there silvering on the decals, are they intact and applied straight? Have pop out pin marks been removed? etc. If any ONE of these problems are found, sorry to say your model will not be considered for further competition ! No matter how nice the presentation or number of bells and whistles , aftermarket products or working features, big, or small. I have seen Dioramas that were incredible, and loaded with detail knocked out of competition because a decal had silvered on a vehicle used in the display. IPMS Regionals are the Big Leagues, like going to the playoffs in the sports world, you better bring your A game or be prepared for disappointment. If you are a Little League or Pee Wee level player you are asking for upset when you go to 'The Show' and don't belong there.



ABSOLUTELY TRUE! I've been an IPMS judge myself and a small, out-of the box basic kit, perfectly made will beat the most elaborate diorama with a single basic construction flaw. That's the rules IPMS judges by and it's not a popularity contest. If you can't run with the big dogs, you stay on the porch.
Most grumbles come from those not judging and not privy to the flaws the judges often find. When submitting an entry to win, you need to ask a modeling friend to carefully examine the kit for ANY flaws, and be honest in his opinion. The builder is often blind to the problem as he LOVES the kit.
This is the best way to go into a contest knowing if you really have a chance and are deserving of the award. And if you do lose- for heaven's sake, be a good sport about it and resolve to do better. This bitch and moan society where everyone has to be a winner means no one is! My 2 cents.


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

*Those are the many reasons I don't enter contests..I build to please myself, not some group of judges...no offense to those that do enter contests, but as long as I am happy with the results, that's all that matters to me..

Z
*


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## Ductapeforever (Mar 6, 2008)

nautilusnut said:


> ABSOLUTELY TRUE! I've been an IPMS judge myself and a small, out-of the box basic kit, perfectly made will beat the most elaborate diorama with a single basic construction flaw. That's the rules IPMS judges by and it's not a popularity contest. If you can't run with the big dogs, you stay on the porch.
> Most grumbles come from those not judging and not privy to the flaws the judges often find. When submitting an entry to win, you need to ask a modeling friend to carefully examine the kit for ANY flaws, and be honest in his opinion. The builder is often blind to the problem as he LOVES the kit.
> This is the best way to go into a contest knowing if you really have a chance and are deserving of the award. And if you do lose- for heaven's sake, be a good sport about it and resolve to do better. This bitch and moan society where everyone has to be a winner means no one is! My 2 cents.


Well said, the best answer to this problem if you are serious and wish to compete is to build certain models for pleasure and certain models for competition. If building for competition then begin the build in that frame of mind and take extra, extra, extra, care in each and every step. Be hyper alert to seams, knock out pin marks, gaps and glue marks. Remove manufacturers molded information, fill motorization holes in armor kits, and ask yourself can I see through the model where I'm not supposed to? Pay special attention to preparation in applying decals, make sure they are straight, eliminate ALL evidence of silvering. Make sure graphics that appear on both sides of a model are uniform in their placement. I'm sure you get the idea here. Discipline and skill are required, practice, practice,PRACTICE ! Go to the IPMS web site download and familiarize yourself with rules for competitions. Click on Member Services , then Competition Handbook .It may seam like a lot of useless nit-picking, but it separates the Master Builders from lesser skilled builders. If you can make it through an IPMS Regional Competition you have truely accomplished something. There truly are no favorites, someone has to loose so it might as well be YOU ! Unless you proove'em wrong with your skill and discipline ! It's not impossible. But you better make sure you have what it takes to compete with National Talent, remember this isn't your local Hobby Show Here. If you want that Super Bowl Ring, you'd best play like a pro!


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