# brushless pan car



## mbeach2k

:dude: once again brushless pan car class is growing, this weekend we had 5 mains of brushless pan car alone. Seems like ever time we race we are picking up
more and more racers, i have not seen this much interest in pan car in years.
the brushless systems have breathed new life into pan car racing. gone is the intimidation to the new people of the dynos and com lathes and cases of motor parts. brushless has made it so much cheaper and easier to race, for the veteran as well as the new people!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## OvalTrucker

Brushless is the single biggest reason I am back racing pancars!


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## mbeach2k

i have heard that from a lot of people, it has put a lot more fun back in to the hobby and a lot less work, and a lot less money


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## Donn

We have been running the LRP Sphere with Reedy NEO motors here for since they came out. We are running in sportsman mod, with Nastruck bodies..


Its been great at this time there are 5 of use, but I have seen more and more interest in it...I hope it grows..we are running a Velodrome race on Dec 10 and we are going with Mod mode and seeing if we can kick it up a notch.


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## KenBajdek

I have been racing for over 12 years and have seen too many people shy away from pan car racing becasue of the difficulty in tuning motors etc. We have seen closer racing and more time to work on setup. Costs have dropped dramatically to race compared to bruhsed systems. Besides tech inspection is a whole lot faster with these systems. My SS brushless system is 2 years old and still running strong. Right now we have 2 brushless classes. 4 cell pan car with 5800/ss speedo , and 6 cell mod sprint car with any Novak System/motor.


Right now we are going faster with 4 cell BL than we were with 6 cell stock. Our fast guys were running 68-69 laps in 6 cell stock and now we are running 69-70 laps almost 71. Our Sprinters were turning 66-67 laps and now up to 69.


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## DynoMoHum

MBEACH2k, where are you guys running?


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## Slider

In the pancars.4 cell. Is the 4300 Brushless close to a stock brushed motor or would it be any faster?


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## mbeach2k

hi dyno, no lansing track yet, so we been moving to different tracks around the state toa different track each weekend, weekend before last was the soo, last weekend was mt. pleasant and this weekend we are going to kalamazoo on saturday,
next weekend not sure yet.


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## AJS

The 4300 brushless system is much faster than a stock brushed motor, it compares closest to a 19 turn motor at 0 degrees of timing, and now probably faster than that. Too fast for a beginner, but it sure makes for a very close and competitive class, with little maintenance.


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## Slider

Let me ask another ? Why then does Novak State the 4300 is equivilent to a stock 27 turn Motor? Need some input on this. Thanks


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## hobbyten

*4300*

i don't believe the 4300 is supposed to be the equielvant to a 27 turn stock motor but is to be considered the stock motor of the brushless systems as is the 5800 is the 19t size motor but in the brushless motor systems


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## kevinm

Novak's claim that the 4300 is equivalent to a stock motor is a very rare case of a company UNDER-hyping a product. It does compare fairly closely to a stock in terms of RPM, but the torque (and therefore power) is much higher, so you can hang a lot more gear on it. I'm not sure how the gearing compares in pan cars, but in a touring car (6-cells) I go UP about 5-6 teeth with the 4300 over a stock motor gear.


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## RPM

kevinm said:


> Novak's claim that the 4300 is equivalent to a stock motor is a very rare case of a company UNDER-hyping a product. It does compare fairly closely to a stock in terms of RPM, but the torque (and therefore power) is much higher, so you can hang a lot more gear on it. I'm not sure how the gearing compares in pan cars, but in a touring car (6-cells) I go UP about 5-6 teeth with the 4300 over a stock motor gear.


What about 4 cells and the 4300 motor?


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## Bob Wright

RPM said:


> What about 4 cells and the 4300 motor?


On our 132ft. carpet track the stock guys are rolling out at 1.80-1.90 and with the 4300 I'm rolling out at 2.30-2.40.

I have noticed with the higher voltage 3800 IB cells you need to back off on gear a liitle to prevent thermal shut down.


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## KenBajdek

We looked at the 4300 for our new rules but didn't want to slow down. We had a few 4 cell stock last year and they were not impressive. We had a vote to go with the 5800. The track has too tight corners for those ( stock type) motors. Our 4 cell 5800 has proven that we can drop the cost of racing and go faster and have more side by side racing!!!!


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## Krisfo

hmmm I thought it was 4 cell 19t that you wren't impressed with...Oh well I guess....


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## mbeach2k

the 4300 class is a little faster than stock but slower than 19 turn
also in 4 cell pan car the 5800 is only about a lap or two faster.
the best part about the 4300 class is there is alot less tire wear than 5800 class
and 4300 is abit easier on the batteries
no matter where i have been 4300 class seems to be the most popular and i like seeing a lot people allin the same class, in stead of thinning the driver pool over too many classes


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## KenBajdek

Krisfo, I thought you were running 4 cell stock. If that was 4 cell 19 I apologize.


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## DynoMoHum

I agree that the 4300 class is really a better choice for most racers then the 5800 is... Primarly do to the lower tire wear. 5800 can be fun, but you have to be ready willing and able to be wearing out and replacing tires alot more frequently. Therefore, the 4300 really seems to be the ideal middle of the road class... faster then brushed stock, but not nearly as much work.... 4300s are probably just a tick slower then a 19T brushed, and again ALOT less work... 5800s surely must be very close in speed to the 19 turn, less motor maintaince, and probably very simmilar tire wear to 19T.

If I were to advise a local track on what brushless class to run... i'd say 4300, with no controler rules... 

So how often are people still experiancing thermal shutdown due to the 4300 motor getting too warm? (as oposed to the controler getting too warm) I mean with the GTB...


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## mbeach2k

well let see, never!!!!!!!!!
as a matter of fact the motor and speed control both run cooler with the gtb, i was actually surprised.


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## Slider

*Good News*



mbeach2k said:


> well let see, never!!!!!!!!!
> as a matter of fact the motor and speed control both run cooler with the gtb, i was actually surprised.


 Well that is the news i have been wanting to hear.Motors and speed contol run cooler. Is that Both Oval and offroad?


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## Bob Wright

I've actually had more thermal shut down problems with the GTB than with the SS or SS+.I believe it's due to the lower resistance of the speedo and higher voltage of the new generation of batteries in combination with hanging a huge gear on it.More voltage to the motor=extra heat.I've had to adjust my rollout down .10-.20 at the three tracks I've run at with it.I also had to change from running pink/purple tires to white/gray/black tires.It's not because my car is ineffiecent either,at Vinton IA,I only dropped off .2 seconds a lap from start to finish in a 5 minute run.


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## mbeach2k

i have only had the gtb run in 4 cell oval, so i'm not sure about it in offroad.
and as far as more overheating that is not possable unless your seriously over gearing.
higher voltage with the same load would be lower amperage and less overheating.
and as far as the gtb usage we have been able to go up in gearing because the thermal level is much higher for shutdown than it was with the ss.


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## mbeach2k

oh ya and the speed control runs a lot cooler,even with out the fan


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## Krisfo

Ken,

Apology accepted....I guess we can assume that the technology we have now for these 4 cell classes wether it be 4 cell stock, 4 cell 19t, or 4 cell brushless has advanced way beyond the stuff we had back when we started racing years ago....remember those times Ken????

Krisfo


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## Bob Wright

mbeach2k said:


> higher voltage with the same load would be lower amperage and less overheating.


That is false. With resistance remaining constant if voltage goes up so will amp, draw it's simple ohm's law. Amps=Voltage/Resistance.

http://www.the12volt.com/ohm/ohmslaw.asp

Here's a link to a chart that shows the relationship between voltage, resistance, amps and watts.


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## mbeach2k

no the resistance dropped from ss to gtb, and yes do the math. ohms law with show that!!!!!!!!


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## hankster

If the resistance of the ESC has dropped, more voltage will be supplied to the motor. If more voltage is supplied to the motor the motor will draw higher amps.


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## Bob Wright

Thanks Hank for stating that in a simpler way.

Also the thermal shut down temp for the ESC has indeed gone up but the thermal shut down temp for the motor has remained the same.


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## mbeach2k

i'm sorry hank but that is not correct
watts divided by voltage will give you amperage
the novak 4300 is 175 watts and this would be the comparison at 4 and 5 volt
175 / 5 = 35
175 / 4 = 43.75


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## hankster

That IS correct. Try running a motor with 4 cells and the same motor with 6 cells. The motor running 6 cells will draw more amps and thus you will have less runtime. A motor supplied with more voltage will will create more power (watts). Try a dyno run of that 4300 on 5 volts and run it again on 7.2 volts... it will create more power (watts) at 7.2 volts and will draw more amps.

If a motor made the same power no matter what voltage was used then we could all go to using one cell packs


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## guver

I would agree, which one would go the farthest distance? the 4 cell or 6 cell?


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## kevinm

mbeach2k said:


> i'm sorry hank but that is not correct
> watts divided by voltage will give you amperage
> the novak 4300 is 175 watts and this would be the comparison at 4 and 5 volt
> 175 / 5 = 35
> 175 / 4 = 43.75


It's correct, but irrelevant. The motor's power is NOT a constant carved in stone. For ANY type of motor, more volts = more amps. Hank's got it right.



guver said:


> I would agree, which one would go the farthest distance? the 4 cell or 6 cell?


Although this question _may_ have been a joke, the answer is 6-cell (assuming you gear it for the same top speed) since the car starts with 50% more watts in the battery.

Now if a tree falls in the forest and there's no one to hear it...:lol:


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## DynoMoHum

Consider this however... With the power you get from a 6 cell setup you probably won't have to gear the 4300 motor so high... and well you probably can't put all that power down on the track all that effectively either.... 

So... in general... I bet the average 4 cell oval carpet racer sees more thermal(motor) shutdowns then does the averag 6 cell road course racer when both are using the 4300 motor... Now what would happen to a 6 cell TC carpet oval racer I don't know, I have a supiscion that they'd still see less thermal motor shutdowns then a 4 cell carpet oval racer would.

So... has anyone thought of any good ways to make the 4300 motor disapate heat better? and/or how many of you have actualy bipased or altered the connection to the thermal couple?


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## hankster

A motor heat sink should help a lot since the windings of a brushless motor are next to the can (unlike a brushed motor). I would bet no one is using a motor heat sink.


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## kevinm

I tried a heat sink (6-cell TC outdoors w/ 5800), but a fan worked better. And the heat sink didn't fit very tight on the brushless.


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## DynoMoHum

The novak brushless motors I've seen (4300 and 5800) have that little purple aluminum ring that covers up the steel inner portion of the mootors... Maybe someone should create a replacment for that ring, make it fit tight on the steel, and have some cooling fins, etc... add some thermal transfer goo and a fan.... I really wonder just how much more speed/power one might be able to gain by improving the cooling of these things. It seems pretty obvious that thermal shutdowns continue to be a issue, even with and perhaps even more so with the GTB contoler (because of increased power going to the motor causing more heat, etc...). It also seems pretty obvious that any racer who can find a way to significantly reduce the heat build up in their motor, could then in turn gear up even further, and perhaps gain a advantage over those that do not deal with the motor temps...


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## RPM

hankster said:


> A motor heat sink should help a lot since the windings of a brushless motor are next to the can (unlike a brushed motor). I would bet no one is using a motor heat sink.


I found the perfect heatsink for my car in Hong Kong with a fan connected to the heatsink....Life is good! :thumbsup:


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## David Butts

*Frequent flier miles?*



RPM said:


> I found the perfect heatsink for my car in Hong Kong with a fan connected to the heatsink....Life is good! :thumbsup:


 
Man you went all the way to China for a fanned heat sink, Pull was right, You are hardcore. Life must really be good! 


By the way, I'm thinking about gettind a bl setup to play with too. Not necesarilly for the FOCAR thing but just to have. 



It's starting:roll:


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## RPM

mbeach2k said:


> i'm sorry hank but that is not correct
> watts divided by voltage will give you amperage
> the novak 4300 is 175 watts and this would be the comparison at 4 and 5 volt
> 175 / 5 = 35
> 175 / 4 = 43.75


I agree...you are right! :thumbsup:

Watts = amps X volts

So, more volts will equal more watts!
As the formula will show above.


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## rcgen

David Butts said:


> Man you went all the way to China for a fanned heat sink, Pull was right, You are hardcore. Life must really be good!
> 
> 
> By the way, I'm thinking about gettind a bl setup to play with too. Not necesarilly for the FOCAR thing but just to have.
> 
> 
> 
> It's starting:roll:


All right another one seeing the light.....


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## RPM

David Butts said:


> Man you went all the way to China for a fanned heat sink, Pull was right, You are hardcore. Life must really be good!
> 
> 
> By the way, I'm thinking about gettind a bl setup to play with too. Not necesarilly for the FOCAR thing but just to have.
> 
> 
> It's starting:roll:


Awesome Dave...Glad to hear!

I have been for running a brushless class since the Daytona International Speedway Race in 2005.
Its been so SSSSSLOW trying to get FOCAR to run a brushless class
that I almost gave up!!!

Team Naples has been working on a new HUGE race track facility with Collier County to run brushless motors and more..
The new track will have power, concessions, restrooms, lights, grandstands.
Will be working with a few big companies to install a lighted scoreboard and more....

Will know more after the commissioners meeting on Wednessday Dec. 21st.

I will post pictures soon on FOCARS site. :thumbsup:


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## hankster

mbeach2k said:


> i'm sorry hank but that is not correct
> watts divided by voltage will give you amperage
> the novak 4300 is 175 watts and this would be the comparison at 4 and 5 volt
> 175 / 5 = 35
> 175 / 4 = 43.75


 The watts stated are at a certain voltage. If you reduce the volts then the wattage will be reduced. The smae motor will NOT produce the same watts at both 4 and 5 volts... ain't possible unless you do something to change the motor.

BTW, the vast majority of brushless motors are rated as RPM per Volt. So if you have a 10K/volt motor it is easy to figure out the RPM. What Novak chooses to go against the industry standards is beyond me... maybe for the FUD factor?


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## kevinm

Hank - I seem to be missing something here. The first 2 Novak motors are rated in RPM/Volt. It's only the 5.5 & 6.5 that don't specify a rating. And then there's Reedy, who refers to them using an approximate brushed motor equivalent number of turns, instead of RPM/volt or actual turns...


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## hankster

But they have moved away from that type of rating. Why? So you can't compare them to other brushless motors?


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## RPM

hankster said:


> But they have moved away from that type of rating. Why? So you can't compare them to other brushless motors?


That's right!!!

But you can hook the motor up to digital meter and compaire each motor by measuring the resistance in ohms.


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## ta_man

RPM said:


> That's right!!!
> 
> But you can hook the motor up to digital meter and compaire each motor by measuring the resistance in ohms.


Ohms is not a good comparison, You can have an armature (or stator for brushless) with (lets say) 10 turns of thinner wire that has the same resistance as another with 12 turns of thicker wire. Most RC motors have such low resistance that it is pretty much indistinguishable from ZERO with most common meters.

A better measure is inductance - that can be used to tell the number of turns on a brushed motor, so it might work as well on a brushless motor. You need an LCR meter to measure the inductance. I have one I borrowed from someone for a while, but I only own one brushless motor that I could measure so I cannot make a comparison with anything else.


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## DynoMoHum

Ohms and Henrys aside... I wonder if there would be ANY value to having a hand wound brushless motor... and/or if there is anything to be gained by having a special pattern to the wind, or having it wound really nicely as compared to wound really bad... My suspicsion is that there is not much to be gained, but also that it must make some differance, or at least that it could make a differance.


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## hankster

Just as in brushed motors I would guess there could be some eff. gains to a good hand winding as each segement would even winds and equal length of wire. I would also suspect that there would be a difference between wire sizes and counts too. I do believe that Novak offers brushless blanks for motor winders to use.


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## kevinm

Reedy's website says their motors ARE hand-wound. And the middle part of their motors look like they came from the same factory as Novak's, so _maybe_ they all are hand wound.


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## DynoMoHum

Well... if my Novak 4300 and 5800 are hand wound... they weren't very steady hands...


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## amainiac

Fella's, lets not kill another class of racing just as it seems to be gaining momentum!!!

Do you really want someone to mod up a B/L motor that now costs $60.00 and offer it for double that to gain a tenth? If the motor is too slow...get a faster motor and use it out of the box just the way its sold. Before you know it, someone will show up with a tank strapped to their car and run a water cooled motor than the next week a guy will have a pressure tank with freon because its more efficient. Heck, I'm working on a special set of hollow ceramic ball bearings filled with unobtanium gas to replace my oem motor bearings; the faster they run...the colder they get.

I'm not trying to flame anyone here, just trying to keep the hobby fun and affordable.

Take a look at the Novak brushless 4300 oval race at Allens Rc in February, it filled up (70+) in three days. I wonder if thats because its something new or because everyone feels one element of a race car has been eliminated that most people never master...the motor!!!

If you like tinkering with motors, thats fine...stick with the brushed motors (or the open mod brushless). Lets leave something alone for the people that dont want to fool around with the motor and still know that their motor is as competitive as the next guys. If we dont, maybe the next B/L race will have to be a handout race (for triple the entry fee) and only 20 racers show up.


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## hobbyten

*motors*

well said


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## AJS

*Kudos*

I couldn't agree more, leave the motor alone and the class will continue to flourish, if people start messing with it will die.


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## Slider

That is alot of wisdom. Leave it alone That is why alot of folks have left. Most ain't motor guru's. and Just want to be on the same level of playing. But if you turn it back into the same as stock, everyday we are trying to get more out of that little motor. For example you go to a handout race and get your motors. First thing we do is go spend countless of hours tweaking on the motor. We don't need that done in Brushless. That is One reason I have not got one yet. For I know good and well he who can figure out how to get more out of a brushless will. and then were right back at the same B.S. I realize it is the Nature of some of use to tinker with everything to find the most H.P. But sometimes it's best left alone. Let the Nascar come back. MERRY CHRISTMAS to all and have a WONDERFUL NEW YEAR!!!


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## RPM

Slider said:


> Most ain't motor guru's. and Just want to be on the same level of playing. !


That is why the BL class is growing to be so big!
More and more of beginner racers as well as season racers are joining in on the fun and the competition.

Life is good!


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## zoom jr.

has anyone tried running the Spektrum with a brushless motor?


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## kevinm

I keep reading posts from people who are worried that someone, somewhere will figure out how to make their brushless system faster than the next guy's. So far, I have seen *ZERO *evidence that anyone, anywhere has actually done it. STOP WORRYING! There isn't anything you can do to your Novak or Reedy/LRP system that will make it better than the designers at the factory made it (other than putting a fan on it, and the GTB comes with one). There are NO software "tweaks" to be found in there.


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## hobbyten

*motor*

i agree with kevin to prove how well brushless has caught on go to midwest brushless race in a matter of just a few days they have over 70 entries for one class i think that this is great to see it reminds you of the old days when the oval races were big i comend the people putting on the race they are taking a chance to hold a race for one class only and it seems to be paying off with big numbers


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## ekjohnson

I agree, some people have more things to do than set there with a dyno, volt meter, etc. trying to find the perfect motor, brushless freed up a lot of my time, let's not go and ruin it now


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## ekjohnson

Also, just when you think all the battery b/s is over with, like it has been since the 3300,s, here we go, again, 3800,s-4200's, makes a person racing on a budget wonder what and when to buy, buy, today- outdated tomorrow, lolllllllll it never seems to stop.


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## OvalTrucker

*uh-huh, yep, you betcha....*



zoom jr. said:


> has anyone tried running the Spektrum with a brushless motor?


I am running the DX3 with absolutley no problems. With a 4300 pancar and a 5800 MF2.

scott


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## mbeach2k

i wouldn't worry about 3800 and 4200, the design on the 4200 is suppose to be the same other than the higher capacity. so voltage and internal resistance are the same, and with so much battery left after a run i don't see were it would be an advantage.


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## DynoMoHum

Either way... I think the wise racers would go to their local tracks and basicly request that a rule be put in place to only allow certian batterys... like those that have ROAR aproval... or will soon have it. (that'd be the 3800s)


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## KenBajdek

I was just wondering if thermalling has been an issue for 4 cell pancars? I have never thermalled than the night I have the best run ever it thermals with 45 seconds to go. I even disconnected the blue wire for the thermalling issue. I didn't think 109 at the speedo heat sinks and 110 on the motor would be enough to thermal. I was running the same rollout, tires, springs, body and everything I have before. I ran the 2 previous races in qualifing with no issues and had the same temp readings at the end?????


Is there a way to bypass the false thermal shut downs?


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## OvalTrucker

I don't think you thermalled. The temps I have seen when suspecting a thermal issue were in excess of 200.

A few weeks ago in a 5800 truck race one of the guys I was racing with shutdown with about 20 seconds to go in a 5 minute main. Temps were "normal" at about 145 or something like that. Not sure what the deal was. He was running a GTB. The only time I have thermalled was when I had a bearing siezeing (sp) up. Of course, before I found the seized bearing I put a fan on my SS ESC and was able to finish the main. I found the bad bearing during my weekly maintenance. I have taken the fan off and not experienced any further trouble.

I have not researched the bypasses yet. I am not inclined to go that route yet. Mostly because I have not had performance problems that overriding failsafes will help me gain a tenth or so! LOL!!!

You are the second person I have heard of shutdowns that can not really be called thermal though. Very interesting.


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## KenBajdek

The wierd thing about it is that the red and blue leds were flashing on the esc. Telling me that the sensor is defective. This esc is only 4 weeks old. The blue wire that is the temp sensor was cut to the motor because of this problem we had before. Now it is becoming more frequent with other cars as well with very different roll outs. The idea of thermalling and keeping the equipment from burning up is a great idea but not if it is going to make you lose the A main and shut down during a track record run. This safety is to be for the inexperienced backyard basher who doesn't know how to gear properly not the oval racer who has 15 years experience in gearing. I have always used a temp gun on my motors to set gear ratios for the first time at a new place and have used the temp gun for all of my brushless racing for the esc and motor.


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## OvalTrucker

I would agree that if thermalling is what is stopping you from a track record than bypassing seems to be a reasonable fix. And I concur that the built in safety factor is for the backyard basher not necessarily those of us that try to squeeze every last drop of performance out of our equipment. 
But, your ESC/Motor is not over heating if your showing temps around 110.
I also think you have a sensor failure of some sort.

Is your ESC a GTB? 

I know none of this answers your concerns. I'm thinking you may have a warranty claim though. Since it is only 4 weeks old. I've been running two SS's with 4300 and 5800 motors with very little trouble. The only shutdown was the one I mentioned in my previous post.


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## KenBajdek

We have to run the SS esc in our class.


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## OvalTrucker

Is it possible that by cutting the blue wire that you damaged the sensor?


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## OvalTrucker

SS or SS+?


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## KenBajdek

We were told by Bob at Novak that this would prevent the problem of thermalling. This motor is 3 years old but the speedo is only 4 weeks old. I have 2 other motors and will try to get them to thermal by using the same gear and see if the thermalling is in the esc with the other motors. I also have 2 other new SS systems to try. I wish we could use the GTB in our class I think that the higher internal resistance is causing the problem.


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## OvalTrucker

I have yet to purchase a GTB because the SS is competitive in the classes I run and I own 2 of them. However, I have seen plenty of GTB thermal shutdowns also.
Guys running the 5.5's and simply gearing way too high are thermalling the GTB's.


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## KenBajdek

I will try my other ESC and motors next Friday and see what happens.


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## mc43

ken it sounds like there is a problem in the speed control


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## Jamie Hanson

Are you sure it is a problem with the speedo/motor? 
Do you run the Spectrum system? Maybe try running a receiver pack. 
110 should not cause a shutdown at all.


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## KenBajdek

I do run the spectrum but I still have steering when the car shuts down and the lights flash on the sec (blus and red). The fail safe didn't engage if that's what you are thinking.


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## kevinm

Assuming that you have the SS+, blinking blue and red means the ESC thinks it has overheated (not the motor). If it's only 110°F, send it in for repair. It shouldn't shut down until 200°. Mine routinely comes off the track in the 170's with the 4300 on 6 cells without shutdown.


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## KenBajdek

Do you think I damaged the ESC by cutting the blue wire? Where is the sensor at? I'm taking a reading at the top and sides of the speedo and using the max temp as a reference.


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## rcgen

I would assume its your ESC and the blue wire. I am still confuse about cutting the blue wire to prevent the shutdown. I've run the SS and SS+ in 4c oval and haven't experience a shutdown. Those speedos are now in my off road cars and still on shutdown. My oval car now has the GTB but have not had the chance to really race and push the GTB to it's limit LOL. This past weekend, I raced touring and watch the modified class running the GTB with the 5800, 6.5 and 5.5. The only shutdown that occurred was due to a cvd binding.


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## hobbyten

When My Speed Control Went I Had The Blue And Red Lights Also. Had To Send It In And They Replaced It . Al


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## KenBajdek

I wll probably send it in but they won't warranty it . I had to cut half of the heat sinks off of it to fit in my car. They may not cover it.


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## hobbyten

You May Have To Pay For It But They Are Pretty Fair With Their Repairs And You Can Opt To Buy A Rebuilt For A Good Price


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## kevinm

KenBajdek said:


> I wll probably send it in but they won't warranty it . I had to cut half of the heat sinks off of it to fit in my car. They may not cover it.


This new information brings up a couple of questions:
1-Why did you cut the heat sink off? I've seen many of them in 1/10th pan cars and no one has HAD to cut them. 
2-Do you mean you made the fins shorter, or did you remove the heat sink from 1/2 of the MOSFETs? If you did that, it's possible that you may have damaged the circuit board (Novak told me NOT to remove it because it's glued on) -OR- some of the MOSFETs might be getting hotter than the others. I'm not really sure where the temp. sensor is in the ESC, but it's probably on or near the heat sink. Removing the blue wire should only allow you to *fry* the motor, not the speedo.


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## KenBajdek

I removed half of the fins on the heat sink. I have a Custom Works Aggressor slider. The slider part of the tray would not move because of the 3X size of the speedo. I went back to the solid chassis and sandwiched the big slot in the middle around the crossbrace. When I cut the fins off I used a hack saw to prevent any heat buildup on the circuit board. It didn't matter what gear I ran or how long it ran it never got over 110F. I am now using a new SS speed control for this week. TQ runs are rare around here and a 3rd DNF in 3 weeks after having 3 front row starts isn't the best way to finish.


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## JSJ Racing

My local track is staring a pan car brushless class. We are going to run the ss4300 and open esc's.

Are these the only esc's what will work with the ss4300?
Novak: SS and GTB?
LRP: Sphere and Sphere Competition?

How much of a difference are there between the esc's?

Thanks for any help!


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## hobbyten

mainly size the sphere is the smallest than the gtb the performance is hard to tell the difference. more programs on the gtb and sphere


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## rcgen

We finally ran our first organized 4300 brushless class, any speedo w/novak 4300 motor. Our track is fairly large like a runline of 350' to 366'. I ran a 38 pinion, 100 spur with 2.21 tire size. I constantly pulled a 7.2 lap time. The fastest guy was able to pull 6.8 and 6.9 a couple time. I checked the temperature of the motor and it ranged between 110-115 degrees. How do I find more speed? Would gearing higher bog the motor or can you overgear a brushless? How's the gearing compared to a brushed motor? Our speeds are comparable to the 19t class but not as fast as the fastest guys in 19t.


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## mbeach2k

gear it till the motor is about 150 degrees after a full run


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## gtimax

did anyone try gtb for 4cell? 4.5/5.5/6.5 better?


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## OvalTrucker

I've seen the GTB's with 5.5's and 4cell. At CEFX in Westland, MI. WAY FAST!!!
I seen more than one car get air underneath it and leave the track!! Have not seen that in a long long time.


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## Donn

Well here on the West Coast, myself and several others have been running the LRP Sphere and Reedy NEO 1 or 3 Star (its new name) in pan cars since they released. 

We run them in a Nastruck class 4-cell (3300's) in Sportsman mod which is like a fast 19t brushed motor along with guys running 19t brushed motors. I have to say it has been great, and on any given day either a brushed or brushless motor can with the race.

In our Sportsman Modified class (non-factory drivers) we have run the same Sphere and Neo motor combination but we run them in Modified mode. The motors run like a 9t brushed, some of the brushed motor guys are now runnning 7 and 8 turn motors because of the new 3700 and 3800 battiers and they have an advantage on us but the same goes as in Nastruck any one of us can win the race on any given day. 

Now when the LRP Sphere Competition version speed control and 4 and 5 star motors arrive, we will be back on the same ground, being the 4 star is eqivallent to a 7t brushed and the 5 star will be like a 5t brushed...

All in all running the brushless has been great, for myself I have raced for nearly 20 years and I am tired of cutting motors and working dynos...this has been a breath of fresh air and has renewed my excitement for racing. In two weeks we will be running the Encino Velodrome, an olympic bicycle track that is 890' with 27 degrees of banking and I really look forward to seeing what the 4 star motor will do there, and maybe I will get a 5 star just to try it out to see if we can crack 70mph.

****I would like to know have any of your been running your motors and based on temps or are strickly going by gearing.**** I started to check the temp of the motors last time we ran and it was about 183 degrees....Have any of you found temp having any type of effect on your motors performance. 

With the LRP Sphere I have never had it thermal shutdown yet and it has a bit of temp in it when we are done with a 5 min qual or main. But I have wondered if you have been testing with motor temps for any type of performance enhancement? Let me know if you don't mind, I am really interested to know what you guys have found.


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## OvalTrucker

Most of us here in Michigan are running the Novak Brushless equipment. 

As far as temps and gearing go, I usually shoot for around 150 - 165 degrees after a full run.

However, I think the jury is still out on what works best. I have seen plenty of thermal shutdowns in cars that are way faster than mine. The Novaks thermal somewhere around 200. I am not sure but I think the usual suspect in these shutdowns is overgearing.


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## JSJ Racing

Has anyone gotten a Sphere competition ESC yet? If so what do you think of it?

Thanks.


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## bigbadstu

*Just for giggles...*

I've got a Mamba 5400 from my Mini-T, and a 12L3, seems like a perfect combination. The Mamba system's light weight ought to be an advantage over the relatively porky Novaks. I'll look in the helicopter section at the LHS for an appropriate pinion gear (might have to go 48 pitch) and I'll see if the Mini-T's 6-cell pack will fit in the car.

This isn't for competition, just to see if it's gonna work.

As for mounting it, I already make the adapter plates to mount outrunners in rock crawlers so it's a bolt-in :thumbsup:


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## jake86

JSJ Racing said:


> Has anyone gotten a Sphere competition ESC yet? If so what do you think of it?
> 
> Thanks.


I have been running one for several months now and I like it a lot. I went to the Mid west Brushless race a couple weeks ago. And the big advantage that I see to the sphere over the Novak speedo's is the thermal shut down temp. that is programed into the speedo. It is much higher in the Sphere than the Novak's. And that cost a few of the guy running the Novak's a win in there races. 

That's my 2 cents

Jason


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## hobbyten

if you disconnect the blue wire from the speed control it will stop this from happening. that wire is in the group of sensor wires. in that race there were a few unhappy guys who had that problem. one guy had it cost him a bump into the a main there.


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## rcgen

That blue wire is from the sensor wire, right? So how do you disconnect it from the esc? Do you just cut the wire, or pull it from the plug? Also, is this for all Novaks SS, SS+ and GTB?


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## rcgen

We ran our second 4300 brushless class last weekend. It grew from 3 to 7 racers. The track's runline is about 350 ft. I attempted to thermal the GTB but with no success. I ran a 48/100, 38/100, 45/100 and a 46/100. Tire size was about 2.19 to 2.15. Never got over 133 degrees. The lap times were very consistent 6.9 to 7.1. The question is can you overgear this thing for a fairly large oval track or is there a point where the motor reaches it's max rpm? So one mentioned it was like restrictor plate racing. My next race will be on a short track so I'll attempt to get close to thermalling it again.


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## hobbyten

its the same on all three also to rcgen we have done roolout as high as 2.70 and higher and not had them thermal. i doubt that the gearing that you are at would make it thermal. the temp usually has to get to 160 or higher before you will have a problem.


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## OvalTrucker

All of the Novaks that I have shot a temp gauge at after thermalling were around 200 degrees.

rcgen- It's possible that with a track that big [350'] you would really have to gear the snot out of it to get a Novak to thermal. Unless you had a very narrow infield and thus really tight corners. I calculated your rollout to be about 3.3. That is pretty high for the tracks we run up here. But, our tracks have runlines around 130' or so.
I say keep gearing up on that track!


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## Donn

There is a great talk about running a brushless class at the Velodrome Nationals this year in Indianapolis, the race will be on Aug 19-20th. If it all works out should be a great time. I went to the race last year and it was really fast and fun, and all the people are really friendly and helpful. Here is the link if you are interested or just want to get in on the conversation.


http://pdxracing.sytes.net/indexhome.html

It would really be great to get a large group of racers there this year with brushless and let them know that we are here to stay...and show what the LRP/Reedy and Novak systems can do. I got my Sphere Competition and 4 Star motor the other day and will be running it at our Velodrome on the 18th of this month. The Encino Velodrome is roughly 890 feet with about 27 degress of banking...with the new combo I hope to hit the really high 60's or maybe even the 70mph range... I will let you all know how it went after the race. You can check out the track the series that we run in at this web address:

www.southwesttour.com


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## shadow1208

I have a question about rollout...I run around a 2.70 with the 4300, about what sould it be with a 5.5? Just want to be close when I get to the track. Thanks


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## OvalTrucker

Donn,
That looks quite interesting. I have never ran at a Velodrome before. Where can I get some set-up info for an L4?
I'm usually quite busy with work that time of year, but if it works out I might try it.


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## davz

shadow1208 said:


> I have a question about rollout...I run around a 2.70 with the 4300, about what sould it be with a 5.5? Just want to be close when I get to the track. Thanks


I'd go with about a 1.90 to start, and go up from there.


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## Donn

Setup for the Velodrome for L3 and L4:

Front springs 20 lf and 22 rf or white lf and red rf
Center shock 40 weight oil with #2 piston center spring blue or green
Side shocks 40 with either blue springs both sides or gold on left and blue on right.
Batteries in the center of the car as far in as possible

You have to run cap tires on a velodrome, BSR would be the ones to get EVH is type and narrows all the way around with the max height and no stagger.

Bodies to run would be either the:
McAllister High Speed Dodge or Murdock has a Ford Turaus for HS Velodrome Racing

The only other changes would be, front king pin to 9110 and change your inline steering axles to trailing.

Let me know if you need more information.


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## riceman

I have some Brushless motors and controlers but I do not have novak or LRP can I run these motors at velodrome. I have not bean on a velodrom since the last thunderdrome in Carson. My pan car is about that old also but ir runn pretty good with the Hacker controler and lenar basic 5300 but I have other motors that I can run also thatt one just fits in the pod best.


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## bigbadstu

I ran my Mamba-powered L3 last night in a test session. The small cells (900's to test with) won't make a full 8 minutes. They dump after about 5. Using six of them, and an 11 tooth pinion, the Mamba is stupid fast, and handles like a go-kart. Motor temps never got over 110 degrees, so I know I left a lot of speed out there on the track. With some better cells I have no doubt it would pull a full 8 minutes. 1400's would probably do it.

Installation is a breeze with an airplane prop adapter and one of my motor plates.

www.freewebs.com/goatworks

click on the outrunner motor plates link for info. The car is so light it makes a 4-cell sub-C car with a brushed motor feel like a dump truck.

project thread:

http://s8.invisionfree.com/Scale_4x4_RC/index.php?showtopic=4444


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## shrabber

My question is overall wieght of car 10th scale, without body but with battery & motor what are your cars weighing in at?


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## OvalTrucker

My 4300 car weighs 36.4 ounces.


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## RPM

OvalTrucker said:


> My 4300 car weighs 36.4 ounces.


Is your car a KSG??


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## OvalTrucker

No, it's a Silva X-Factor.


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## Donn

Well guys, we ran our velodrome race this past weekend and even though the weather was a bit of a pain, we managed to get all the qualifing and mains in, even if we did run the Nastruck class in the dark...

Ran the new Sphere Comp and 4 Star in our sportsman mod class and what a blast....can you say rocket... Also ran the Sphere and Neo 1 or 3 star motor in Sportsman mode and it worked perfectly.

The new LRP Sphere Competition and 4 Star motor were very fast...just didn't have the luck of the Lexan gods to get a good finish.


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## jenzorace

OvalTrucker said:


> My 4300 car weighs 36.4 ounces.


Wow My brushless hypersled weighs 42.5+++++ No wonder im so slow :drunk:


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## OvalTrucker

jenzorace said:


> Wow My brushless hypersled weighs 42.5+++++ No wonder im so slow :drunk:


Without the body?

Mine is 41.4 with body/wing.


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## jenzorace

OvalTrucker said:


> Without the body?
> 
> Mine is 41.4 with body/wing.


Thats more like it. Ive heard some guys are pretty close to adding weight. I know i could shave some weight, but it wouldnt help me.....


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## davz

I have 2 brushless cars. 1 is 40.0 oz. race ready and the other is 39.8 oz.


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## Jamie Hanson

I can say that you can be under weight with 40oz being the rule. At a race recently I was at 39.2oz WITH a receiver pack. So it can be done.


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## shrabber

WoW Im a tank @ 43 oz race ready.But then again 2-3 oz is relative to driving and setup.Car is dialed driver isnt.


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## Donn

I haven't weighed my car lately, but I ran at Hot Rod Hobbies this past Sunday the 2nd of april with new LRP Sphere Comp and 4 Star motor and it was great! I didn't have to cut a com or replace a brush. Just clean the chassis and play with gearing. I ended up with a 120/19=6.00 and ran 58 laps in a 5 min main. Others here are starting to see the benefits and are really looking into changing.


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## jhseckinger

Has anyone had problems getting the GTB to work in brushed mode..


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