# More Phase II E pics



## trevanian (Jan 30, 2004)

http://www.probertdesigns.com/Folder_DESIGN/P-2_Enterprise.html

If you folks have already seen these, feel free to close this off, but I only just came across them, so they were new to me, at least the closer shots. 

I was never taken with Taylor's approach to the nacelle cap area (I like the TOS series nacelle caps best), but it does look better than the Phase II version.


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## Flux Chiller (May 2, 2005)

Interesting what might have been, yes. 

All this Probert work was certainly a good job at making the Ent look more technical, butch and yet somehow still within the spirit of Trek canon (ie: generally smooth and taut). Subtle work that was worth more than the sum of its parts. 
Pity later designs (eg: NX-01 and Sovereign Class) lost that simplicity. The Ent-E has many Klingon-esque triangles all over it. Still, I forget, they are part of the Federation now...


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

Looking mighty good !!! :thumbsup: 
Say uh.... when ya get tired of it , don't be afraid to give me a holler.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

There is a note shown on drawings in "Phase II: The Lost Series" that mentions upgrading the ship slightly with more lighting in the nacelle, which, my best guess, would mean they were going to add a lighting effect to the front of the nacelles.

There is plenty of description of the lighting effect for the sides of the nacelles using a blue-green light through horizontal slits much like the blue/purple effect on the inside of the movie 1701. It would have been a very interesting ship visually with much more in common with the original TOS 1701.


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## trevanian (Jan 30, 2004)

PerfesserCoffee said:


> There is a note shown on drawings in "Phase II: The Lost Series" that mentions upgrading the ship slightly with more lighting in the nacelle, which, my best guess, would mean they were going to add a lighting effect to the front of the nacelles.
> 
> There is plenty of description of the lighting effect for the sides of the nacelles using a blue-green light through horizontal slits much like the blue/purple effect on the inside of the movie 1701. It would have been a very interesting ship visually with much more in common with the original TOS 1701.


Taylor's notion for the warp effect was pretty cool ... he was going to build a black E that he could shoot and match to the regular model, but the black one would have fiber optics strung between the nacelles. There would have been a light ripple between the two inboards that was masked naturally as the ship moved by (hence the need to match the black ship to the regular one.) There was also supposed to be a warp shock bubble surrounding most of the ship. Somebody who worked on Forbidden Planet, Crewson or Freeson, was gonna do that part. There are some concept sketches in the middle of an old ENTERPRISE INCIDENTS, probably somewhere between issue 12 and 16, that shows this might have been pret-ty cool. 

Still wouldn't've made up for not having the spinny globes in front though.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

trevanian said:


> Taylor's notion for the warp effect was pretty cool ... he was going to build a black E that he could shoot and match to the regular model, but the black one would have fiber optics strung between the nacelles. There would have been a light ripple between the two inboards that was masked naturally as the ship moved by (hence the need to match the black ship to the regular one.) There was also supposed to be a warp shock bubble surrounding most of the ship. Somebody who worked on Forbidden Planet, Crewson or Freeson, was gonna do that part. There are some concept sketches in the middle of an old ENTERPRISE INCIDENTS, probably somewhere between issue 12 and 16, that shows this might have been pret-ty cool.
> 
> Still wouldn't've made up for not having the spinny globes in front though.


Cool info! I wasn't aware of all that. 

I agree about the spinny globes. :thumbsup: I think they are better than anything they've come up with since.


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

The spinny globes were to be on the 1701-D, as directed by Andrew Probert, but ILM did not do it. I miss that effect the most on the refit.


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## trevanian (Jan 30, 2004)

Lloyd Collins said:


> The spinny globes were to be on the 1701-D, as directed by Andrew Probert, but ILM did not do it. I miss that effect the most on the refit.


I don't think I've seen any REALLY good pics of it, but that PHOENIX model for FC was just incredibly cool-looking. That is one of the few miniatures from Trek I've seen in person (held it!!!), and the thing was REALLY small ... they were very happy to have been able to get the spinny things going in such a tiny model. Kinda made me forgive ILM for the FARPOINT era stuff (then again, they didn't comp those shots, just provided elements.)


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

I have designed a spinning fanblade effect for my large, studio-scale 1/350th _Enterprise_-D model. There are two sets of fan blades that slightly overlap each other, resulting in an "eggbeater"-type arrangement for each dome. The blades are shiny on the inside, just like the original _Enterprise_, which will reflect the flashing lights around as they spin and bounce them off of mirror fragments mounted in a random, non-planar arrangement behind the lights, resulting in multiple shards of light cast in different directions. Again, just like the original _Enterprise_, only doubled.


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

There was also a plan at one time early on to add a similar, though more subtle effect to the "deflection crystal" on the refit model, but it never really got past the idea stage. I think it would have looked neat. Certainly more interesting than just a static glow.

Hmmm, maybe that could be worked out for the 1/350 PL refit kit?

I'll have to give that one some thought.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Trek Ace said:


> There was also a plan at one time early on to add a similar, though more subtle effect to the "deflection crystal" on the refit model, but it never really got past the idea stage. I think it would have looked neat. Certainly more interesting than just a static glow.


That would have matched the warp core effect. Would have really tied together the miniature with the engine room set.


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## trevanian (Jan 30, 2004)

PerfesserCoffee said:


> That would have matched the warp core effect. Would have really tied together the miniature with the engine room set.


They didn't hit on the interior effect till production was nearly underway (engineering was the last major part of the schedule), so I'm wondering when this was considered for the exterior. Was it something Abel and Taylor were thinking of doing?


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## Flux Chiller (May 2, 2005)

Interesting stuff...

Personally I like the refit as it is - the problem with light effects is that they always change them between films - example the warp effect is tamperered with between ST1 and 2; then different to 3, 4, 5, 6 etc. What happened, did the laws of phsyics change?

Anyway, glad to see some real enthusiasm for TOS 1701 on here. Its not my favourite, but the purity of the design is still something to behold years later. I always find building one more therapeutic than other era starships somehow.


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

trevanian said:


> They didn't hit on the interior effect till production was nearly underway (engineering was the last major part of the schedule), so I'm wondering when this was considered for the exterior. Was it something Abel and Taylor were thinking of doing?


I don't know if the exterior dome effect was meant to coincide with any internal on-set engine core effect or not. One of the former Abel staff mentioned this to me a few years ago as having been discussed as a possibility while they were still involved in the design and effects development for the film. How the effect would have been ultimately represented had it been implemented I suppose is anyone's guess.


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## spacecraft guy (Aug 16, 2003)

trevanian said:


> Taylor's notion for the warp effect was pretty cool ... he was going to build a black E that he could shoot and match to the regular model, but the black one would have fiber optics strung between the nacelles. There would have been a light ripple between the two inboards that was masked naturally as the ship moved by (hence the need to match the black ship to the regular one.) There was also supposed to be a warp shock bubble surrounding most of the ship. Somebody who worked on Forbidden Planet, Crewson or Freeson, was gonna do that part. There are some concept sketches in the middle of an old ENTERPRISE INCIDENTS, probably somewhere between issue 12 and 16, that shows this might have been pret-ty cool.
> 
> Still wouldn't've made up for not having the spinny globes in front though.



I was going through my files yesterday and found the pages from that issue of ENTERPRISE INCIDENTS. They are in black and white and have the concept sketches for the warp shuttle as well. 

If anyone wants to see them, I can scan them and post them, but they feature commentary by Paul Newitt, and I don't want to offend him in any way. How do you want it handled - Paul, is this OK with you?


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## CaptFrank (Jan 29, 2005)

Flux Chiller wrote:


> Personally I like the refit as it is - the problem with light effects is that they always change them between films - example the warp effect is tamperered with between ST1 and 2; then different to 3, 4, 5, 6 etc. What happened, did the laws of phsyics change?


It's not that the laws of physics changed, the light effects grew simpler because the warp technology was refined.

As an analogy, the STTMP warp effect is bright and splashy, like a cannonball, or a belly-slam, into a swimming pool.

As the tech is improved, the ship enters warp more easily. STTWOK's warp entry is like platform diving feet first. Fairly smooth, but still splashy.

STTSFS, and STTVH have very simple, easy warp entry. 

The ultimate goal of the engineers in "Starfleet" is to perfect warp drive to the point where entry into subspace is like an Olympic dive: smooth, effortless, and no splash. 

A warp driven ship should just slip into subspace. No wasted energy blasting open a hole with warp power. 

If you can go watch STAR TREK The Motion Picture, the first time the Enterprise goes into warp, Scotty wasn't through building the ship. Warp entry was rough, and ultimately failed because an imblance created a worm-hole. After Spock arrived, and assisted, the Enterprise went to warp with correctly functioning engines. The light effect was the same, but listen to the sound. There is no "bang" as the effect begins. It has been reduced to a "slide"-like sound.

So, as warp drive is perfected, there will be less of a visual effect.

Hmmm... eventually, the ship will just vanish, with no effect.


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## Bay7 (Nov 8, 1999)

I really like these PII threads, seems something new is brought to the surface each time!


I always leave with a feeling of how great it would be to get to QA some of the original builders - I know it's sadly too late for MJ, but I wonder if he would have known about all the after effects or if Matt was just there to design the shape?

We need a star trek: phase 2 dedicated site!

Mike


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## Captain April (May 1, 2004)

Suppose someday somebody actually produces a 1/350 TOS Enterprise.

Who here is gonna go through the expense of kitbashing it and a PL Refit into a big honking Phase II E?


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## trevanian (Jan 30, 2004)

Flux Chiller said:


> Interesting stuff...
> 
> Personally I like the refit as it is - the problem with light effects is that they always change them between films - example the warp effect is tamperered with between ST1 and 2; then different to 3, 4, 5, 6 etc. What happened, did the laws of phsyics change?


Well, on TMP they did genuflect in the direction of physics by actually listening to their tech advisor some of the time (maybe TOO much?) Whereas ILM has nearly always followed the 'make it look cool' mindset. Also the Bill George remark about continuity being for wussies/wimps comes to mind. 

ILM's warp effect is basically airbrushed animation, though I think they tried slitscanning the animation on SFS, so it isn't ever going to have the weight of the TMP shots, where the ship is being physically streaked plus you have the big set of filters for the rainbow stuff. The BOP in TVH is a pretty good try though, where they track in on the tail. 

on TFF, Ferren -- or rather, Ferren's subcontracted model guy -- did the Trumbull thing but without any finesse, so you get a pretty laughable effect.


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## trevanian (Jan 30, 2004)

Bay7 said:


> I really like these PII threads, seems something new is brought to the surface each time!
> 
> 
> I always leave with a feeling of how great it would be to get to QA some of the original builders - I know it's sadly too late for MJ, but I wonder if he would have known about all the after effects or if Matt was just there to design the shape?
> ...


Richard Datin is probably still alive, but I don't know about Don Loos, who built the phase 2 ship. I'd love to talk with these guys myself! 

There is a phase 2 site or subsite that is done by somebody done in Mexico, but I haven't seen it in awhile, maybe it went away. A little bit of PLANET OF THE TITANS stuff there too (that is the unmade trek I'm most intrigued by, in part due to the talent involved -- Jordan Belson on optical fx, Ken Adam on production design, Derek Meddings on miniature, Phil Kaufmann directing, Toshiro Mifune as a klingon captain ... )


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## Flux Chiller (May 2, 2005)

Rather liked the McQuarrie ship myself and that shot of the ship going into the rocks. But then maybe he's seen the last season of Blakes 7 and the Scorpio - now that is a ship (English flag raised proudly aloft!!)

CaptFrank, thanks for excellent explanation to cover the lack of warp entry continuity in the films ;-) But please don't get me going on the soundeffects - I'm so depressed with the remix in the director's version in certain areas. Its just not cricket as we say in these parts. I'm starting a campaign to restore the correct Red Alert Klaxon. Thank the lord for my priceless Laserdisc of the film.


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## phicks (Nov 5, 2002)

Lloyd Collins said:


> The spinny globes were to be on the 1701-D, as directed by Andrew Probert, but ILM did not do it. I miss that effect the most on the refit.


My understanding is that there are actually two spinning globes at the front end of each of the Enterprise-D warp engines. They just never really had a closeup on the tip of the engines that showed them.


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## CaptFrank (Jan 29, 2005)

Flux Chiller wrote:


> But please don't get me going on the soundeffects - I'm so depressed with the remix in the director's version in certain areas.


I didn't know they had changed the sound. I have a video tape of the original theatrical release version of The Motion Picture that I watch. No DVD for me. (Not that I have anything against DVD's, I just haven't bought one for TMP.) I have never seen the director's cut.

Maybe I don't want to, now.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

phicks said:


> My understanding is that there are actually two spinning globes at the front end of each of the Enterprise-D warp engines. They just never really had a closeup on the tip of the engines that showed them.


I read that they had planned to do something similar to what was shown on one of the engine room diagrams like what you describe but were unable to get a satisfactory result (in the allotted time) so abandoned the idea.


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## NJFNick (May 22, 2004)

"Spacecraft Guy" i would like to see the scans from you copy of Enterprise incidents. Any chance you could mail 'em to me please?
"Trevanian" is right, these PH II threads are interesting. Perhaps it's 'cause the PhII En terprise is a mongrel cross between our favourite 2 ships.
If you check out the Topps cards, there is a shot of the Abel version refit without the radial lines on the blue dish. Wish there were more shots from this time. I believe they were taken during lighting tests at Magicam before she was delivered to Trumbull.

Nick


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## Bay7 (Nov 8, 1999)

Captain April said:


> Suppose someday somebody actually produces a 1/350 TOS Enterprise.
> 
> Who here is gonna go through the expense of kitbashing it and a PL Refit into a big honking Phase II E?


Well, IMO, the TMP refit model is all you need as a lot of the PII details are very much like the refit. I think there's only a few transferable items from TOS Ent - like the top of the bridge, planetary sensor, impulse housing and the shuttle bay doors - and they'd all have to be modified anway.

Not saying it would be easy tho! That's alot of cutting, sanding and scratch building!

Cheers,

Mike


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Bay7 said:


> Well, IMO, the TMP refit model is all you need as a lot of the PII details are very much like the refit. I think there's only a few transferable items from TOS Ent - like the top of the bridge, planetary sensor, impulse housing and the shuttle bay doors - and they'd all have to be modified anway.
> 
> Not saying it would be easy tho! That's alot of cutting, sanding and scratch building!


I think you're right, Mike! I'm planning to make a Phase II or two :thumbsup:


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## spacecraft guy (Aug 16, 2003)

NJFNick said:


> "Spacecraft Guy" i would like to see the scans from you copy of Enterprise incidents. Any chance you could mail 'em to me please?
> "Trevanian" is right, these PH II threads are interesting. Perhaps it's 'cause the PhII En terprise is a mongrel cross between our favourite 2 ships.
> If you check out the Topps cards, there is a shot of the Abel version refit without the radial lines on the blue dish. Wish there were more shots from this time. I believe they were taken during lighting tests at Magicam before she was delivered to Trumbull.
> 
> Nick


Nick - 

Be pleased to pass them on - check your e-mail, please. Anybody else want to see them, I'll post them, but want to be sure that I'm following proper board etiquette and respecting the author.


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## trevanian (Jan 30, 2004)

spacecraft guy said:


> Nick -
> 
> Be pleased to pass them on - check your e-mail, please. Anybody else want to see them, I'll post them, but want to be sure that I'm following proper board etiquette and respecting the author.


Not sure if it is the same issue or not, but in one of those EI blurb sections, they had a whole bunch of different Probert passes on the torp area too. Plus that is the first place I saw art for how Galileo was supposed to look (same lines on the bottom half as on the top, very curvy looking, I guess too pricey to build.) The pic was seriously overexposed, but I don't think I've seen it anywhere else ever.


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## Flux Chiller (May 2, 2005)

spacecraft guy said:


> Nick -
> 
> Be pleased to pass them on - check your e-mail, please. Anybody else want to see them, I'll post them, but want to be sure that I'm following proper board etiquette and respecting the author.


Well, I am very interested too, please Nick.
Thanks
Colin


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## uss_columbia (Jul 15, 2003)

I, too, would love to see them. It would be great if you could post them somewhere. If you don't have access to a web host, I could probably host them.


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## spacecraft guy (Aug 16, 2003)

Will post them ASAP - check this afternoon.


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

as to ilm using airbrushed animation rather than the streak effect in st3, it wasnt an aesthetic decision. apparently the shooting stage at the ilm facility developed a dip in it, which they didnt notice till they looked at their enterprise warp streaks. the streighline streaks suddnely had a dip in them as well! they had to tear out the floor and have a new one poured, and the warp streaks ended up airbrushed. 

ive read that they had wanted the tng type "stretchy" effect for tmp, but couldnt pull it off properly, so they went with the colorful streaks.


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## trevanian (Jan 30, 2004)

razorwyre1 said:


> as to ilm using airbrushed animation rather than the streak effect in st3, it wasnt an aesthetic decision. apparently the shooting stage at the ilm facility developed a dip in it, which they didnt notice till they looked at their enterprise warp streaks. the streighline streaks suddnely had a dip in them as well! they had to tear out the floor and have a new one poured, and the warp streaks ended up airbrushed.
> .


Yeah, but I think ILMers were also interested in making it more animationlooking, too. By the time of TUC, they never even considered streaking the model dimensionally, animation was the only thought. The thought was that with animation you could make the vanishing point more dramatic than with the actual model lights, and that you wouldn't have the distraction of window lights that SEEMED to streak in the wrong perspective (which is evident in TFF when the E does its freaky little right-left warp slide out of the torp's way.)

Presumably Trumbull's folks on TMP chose warp angles that didn't have these problems, since the TMP shots still look wonderful to me.


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## spacecraft guy (Aug 16, 2003)

Here they are:

members.aol.com:/rajnidds/EIscan1

members.aol.com:/rajnidds/EIscan2

Sorry about the quality and format - I have an old scanner. I tried to upload them as attachments, but for some reason they didn't upload. If anyone wants to repost them in a more convenient format, that would be great.


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## NJFNick (May 22, 2004)

Thanks Spacecraft Guy, tried mailing you but it kept bouncing back.
Dont worry about the quality, geeks like us will drool over anything! :tongue:


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## spacecraft guy (Aug 16, 2003)

Nick - 

I got your e-mail, e-mailed you the scans - if you didn't get them, let me know and I'll resend them.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

spacecraft guy said:


> Here they are:
> 
> members.aol.com:/rajnidds/EIscan1
> 
> ...


Thanks!

Those are great! :thumbsup:


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## NJFNick (May 22, 2004)

Got the scans on my mail. Many thanks.
I am really interested in getting hold of some good close up shots of the torpedo bays with the doors - pre Trumbull. There is quite a good one in the Topps cards set. I will try and post the shot.
Does anyone have any good shots of the ship as she was finished by Abel's spec? I am pulling as much detail together to do a full version in 1:350.


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## NJFNick (May 22, 2004)

Can anyone see this? Its my first Piccie post! :freak:


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Nice! I don't think I've seen that one before.


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## Richard Compton (Nov 21, 2000)

The pics don't work for me...

Speaking of the Planet of the Titans, yeah it would be interesting but be glad it didn't happen. Those McQuarrie ideas they were toying with make one a little scared. I don't know what they ultimately would have ended up with, but at least with it being a series again, they moved production back to the US and Roddenberry...otherwise, I don't know if Jefferies and Jennings would have been involved. Plus the series intention made it more likely that what they came up with had more in common with the series, so when Wise took over he was just polishing all the work that was already done instead of starting over.

By the way, was the Titans stuff actually done in England? I know they wanted to film it there because it'd be cheaper, but I guess I'm just assuming this early preproduction was also done there, and I don't actually know.


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## NJFNick (May 22, 2004)

No stopping me now!
Richard, i agree. The star destroyer style enterprise IMHO had no style or grace and had no place in the design lineage of the Enterprise.

Space ship guy, your scans of the torpedo bay doors seem to show the usual design but covered by the doors. The images i have attached show yellow lights - at least 2 per side. I remeber seeing something somewhere which suggested some kind of mine launcher next to each torp bay. I will try and dig it out!


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## trevanian (Jan 30, 2004)

Richard Compton said:


> The pics don't work for me...
> 
> By the way, was the Titans stuff actually done in England? I know they wanted to film it there because it'd be cheaper, but I guess I'm just assuming this early preproduction was also done there, and I don't actually know.


They never started production because the script by those british writers who did DON'T LOOK NOW never got approved, only the outline. So the effort was L.A. based for as long as it lasted, though if it had greenlit, producer Jerry Isenberg (I think this is the same guy who wrote a kid's book about the NFL) was going to see whether Pinewood was available. Would have been interesting to see how SUPERMAN turned out w/o Derek Meddings if TITANS had gone ahead. 

I don't like the McQuarrie art, but I gotta figure Ken Adam would have refined the lines a bit, and made things more curvy. Look at his work in MOONRAKER and you can see the cylinder craze that was going through his mind then. Also, if anybody finds the new book on Ken Adam's career, please post anything related to trek in it, okay? The book is apparently very pricey, but sounds awesome.


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## Bay7 (Nov 8, 1999)

NJFNick said:


> Can anyone see this? Its my first Piccie post! :freak:


Hey!

That look's like the deep deflector we can see in the plans for the PII!

Thanks for sharing it/them!

Mike


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## Richard Compton (Nov 21, 2000)

trevanian said:


> They never started production because the script by those british writers who did DON'T LOOK NOW never got approved, only the outline. So the effort was L.A. based for as long as it lasted, though if it had greenlit, producer Jerry Isenberg (I think this is the same guy who wrote a kid's book about the NFL) was going to see whether Pinewood was available. Would have been interesting to see how SUPERMAN turned out w/o Derek Meddings if TITANS had gone ahead.
> 
> I don't like the McQuarrie art, but I gotta figure Ken Adam would have refined the lines a bit, and made things more curvy. Look at his work in MOONRAKER and you can see the cylinder craze that was going through his mind then. Also, if anybody finds the new book on Ken Adam's career, please post anything related to trek in it, okay? The book is apparently very pricey, but sounds awesome.


 Are you sure about that? Because for one, they had writers, directors, and art people attached kind of putting out ideas for the CotT thing. (I don't mean full production, but a production team working out ideas preliminarily) Earlier iterations were mostly just the script or treatment, so it was a writer only. Also, Spectre was supposedly filmed in England around this time, and Roddenberry was supposedly over there....so, that might be a part of the whole film-it-in-england plan. However, I'm getting a lot of this info from the Phase II book, the accuracy of which can be questionable. But as far as Roddenberry being in England at this time, I got from another source.

The PII book also (IIRC) attributes those McQuarrie designs as being painted by Ken Adam's....which I hadn't noticed till the other day. Again, this might be a misattribution on the part of the author's. They don't seem to fact-check those books very well.


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## Orne (Feb 23, 1999)

Spoke with MacQuarrie personaly at a con once about the wedge-version Enterprise; he told me that Ken Adams solely designed it, and that he was only using the design in the paintings as requested.


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## portland182 (Jul 19, 2003)

NJFNick said:


> Can anyone see this? Its my first Piccie post! :freak:


More 'glowing stripes' on the inside of the warp nacelle too!

Jim


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## NJFNick (May 22, 2004)

Never noticed that before! There are 6 i think. Shouldnt there be 5? Also there seems to be a mix of blue and purple but that could be down to picture quality. Someone somewhere must have crystal clear shots like this. No?They were taken at Magicam as lighting tests before shipping to Paramount...least thats what i read.


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