# Scorpion Track Design



## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

Hi y'all,

I'm looking at routing my own Scorpion track using Sintra for the track surface (the same stuff Brad Bowman, Wizzard and others use for their tracks) and stitching wire for the rail. It's going to be 4' X 16'. Does anyone have a scale drawing of a 6 lane Scorpion track with the radii of the corners? Any help is greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

Todd


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Another good track plan to look at Todd ,is the old Velocity Dome layout,it's a easy simple track design ,that would probably work good for your middle school kids.:thumbsup:
When BuckTrax were around building routed tracks years ago,it was one of their layouts
How are things going with your project.:wave:
Rick


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## TurnNBurn (Mar 13, 2007)

Or, one I personally like - Dragon's Tail. I'm currently making something similar to this layout out of Tomy track and on longer table.


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

Hornet said:


> Another good track plan to look at Todd ,is the old Velocity Dome layout,it's a easy simple track design ,that would probably work good for your middle school kids.:thumbsup:
> When BuckTrax were around building routed tracks years ago,it was one of their layouts
> How are things going with your project.:wave:
> Rick


That is a sweet looking track Rick. Found a picture of it here:









You're making me have second thoughts on the Scorpion just when I thought I knew what I was doing! :freak:

As to the state of our track, so far we're still gathering supplies. I think I've found a local supply of stitching wire. I'll check it out tomorrow. They may even donate some, just have to see if it's the right size. Ted's getting the CNC up and running as we speak. We'll have to make a test track first and go from there. I'll keep you posted.

Todd


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

Frickin' fracken'!! Another good looking track. Stop it you guys are killing me!  :freak: But honestly, thanks for sharing. Hadn't seen that one before.

Todd




TurnNBurn said:


> Or, one I personally like - Dragon's Tail. I'm currently making something similar to this layout out of Tomy track and on longer table.


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

tossedman said:


> As to the state of our track, so far we're still gathering supplies. I think I've found a local supply of stitching wire. I'll check it out tomorrow. They may even donate some, just have to see if it's the right size.
> Todd


Todd,
If you can, can you tell me where you located stiching wire and how much it costs? I'm just curious.
I'm also going to guess magnets are attracted to it?

Thanks...Joe


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

Thanks for all the input guys. After playing around in Adobe Illustrator for a few evenings I was able to come up with two designs, a Scorpion and a Velocity Dome track. Thanks for that heads up Rick. Both are 4' X 16". 1.5 " lane spacing with a 1.75" gutter. I tried to squeeze a 6 lane track into this same space but it seems to get some pretty tight radius corners on the inside so I stuck with 4 lanes.

Has anyone raced on both and could offer a comparison? One (maybe both) will be sent off to the CNC router to make a school track.

Joe, I was in contact with http://stitchingwireproducts.com/ they have 0.020" or 0.017" wire for $2.00/lb and a 50 lb. minimum. That's about 7000 feet of wire. A local box maker offered to donate some to the school but they only had one width and it was 0.028". :freak: Too wide I think. Even 0.017" and 0.020" will have more magnetic force than plastic track.

Todd

Here they are:


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## demether (Aug 26, 2008)

that "pro" tracks are incredible. It must be so cool to race with the "tchac tchac tchac" noise of classic plastic tracks !


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

tossedman said:


> Joe, I was in contact with http://stitchingwireproducts.com/ they have 0.020" or 0.017" wire for $2.00/lb and a 50 lb. minimum. That's about 7000 feet of wire. A local box maker offered to donate some to the school but they only had one width and it was 0.028". :freak: Too wide I think. Even 0.017" and 0.020" will have more magnetic force than plastic track.
> 
> Todd


 That's pretty inexpensive if you can get the right size. Would it be possible to set the rail height lower to reduce the downforce?

Another thought. If you really wanted 6 lanes, would it be possible to squeeze the lanes in the curves? This would mean you could possibly keep the inside lane to a radius that is acceptable.

Joe


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## noddaz (Aug 6, 1999)

tossedman said:


> Thanks for all the input guys. After playing around in Adobe Illustrator for a few evenings I was able to come up with two designs, a Scorpion and a Velocity Dome track. Thanks for that heads up Rick. Both are 4' X 16". 1.5 " lane spacing with a 1.75" gutter. I tried to squeeze a 6 lane track into this same space but it seems to get some pretty tight radius corners on the inside so I stuck with 4 lanes.
> 
> Has anyone raced on both and could offer a comparison? One (maybe both) will be sent off to the CNC router to make a school track.


I have raced on a six lane Scorp and the gutter lanes do have tight turns...
Hmmm, how about a re-do and make the outside lanes a wider radius and make the whole track wider...?


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

I'd love to but the limiting factor is the width of the Sintra. It comes in 4' x8' sheets... wait...just checked online and you can get 5' x 10' or 2m x 10' sheets (never could figure out these metric and imperial measurement combinations). Now the limiting factor is the CNC router, it only does up to 48" wide sheets. Anyone got a bigger CNC router in their garage in Calgary? :tongue:

Otherwise a bigger track would be great.

Todd



noddaz said:


> I have raced on a six lane Scorp and the gutter lanes do have tight turns...
> Hmmm, how about a re-do and make the outside lanes a wider radius and make the whole track wider...?


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## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)

Save a little more up and then get two 4x8 sheets and cut the track wider using the second sheet for part of it.

If you do it right you could have enough left over for either a small oval or a drag strip.


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

Could do 'Doba but I think that if I'm going to go all out and make it bigger I'd get the 5' x 10' sheets of Sintra and find a bigger router. I'd have to price out how much it'd cost to route such a track but it's a lot less routing than a 1/32 track so probably would be a couple of hundred bucks.

Todd



1976Cordoba said:


> Save a little more up and then get two 4x8 sheets and cut the track wider using the second sheet for part of it.
> 
> If you do it right you could have enough left over for either a small oval or a drag strip.


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

*6 lane Scorpion*

OK so I took another look at the 6 lane Scorpion and the gutter lanes have a 4" radius on the tight corners. Not as tight as I thought it was going to be. Guess I ought to measure before spouting off about how tight things are. I'll really have to drive one to see what it's like I reckon. 

Here's what I came up with:










Did I get the lane colours right? Is it red,white, blue, yellow, green, and orange from the outside in? I can see why you'd put up walls or fences between some of the corners that run inside one another. The red lane is just over 62' long. The orange lane is a tad over 58' long. Wow! What a difference. Is that comparable to other 6 lane Scorpions out there?

Cheers,

Todd


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## wheelszk (Jul 8, 2006)

The one I race on is RED,WHITE,GREEN,ORANGE,BLUE,and YELLOW


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## martybauer31 (Jan 27, 2004)

wheelszk said:


> The one I race on is RED,WHITE,GREEN,ORANGE,BLUE,and YELLOW


Yep, with Yellow on the outside, Red inside...


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## blubyu (May 4, 2008)

*scorpion track pic*

Here is a picture of one.


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

wheelszk said:


> The one I race on is RED,WHITE,GREEN,ORANGE,BLUE,and YELLOW


No, that one's RED,WHITE,GREEN,ORANGE,BLUE!BLUE!BLUE!,and YELLOW 

:tongue:


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## wheelszk (Jul 8, 2006)

You had to go there :wave::thumbsup:


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## Tsooko (Oct 15, 2009)

Todd

I'm thinking the 4' wide track has 4" radiused turns on the gutter lanes , what would be the radius be on a track 5' wide?
The track I just built has 4.5" radius turns on the outside of the hairpin (blue lane) and I have to drive the corner, not go flat out with srt's and g-plus cars, but the mag force is higher than the stitching wire or AFX rails with the rebar wire power rails.
If you increase the radius would that not mean the course could be run flat out or near to it? 

Can you get Sintra in 4'x10' sheets? Then you could divide the track into 4' pieces and turn the pieces sideways to cut out on a 4' x 8' cnc in 4, 4' x 5' sections. 4 joints for a 5' x 16' track. If not then like 'doba said you could cut 1' off the long side and make a drag strip 20' long and still have the 5' wide track.

Cheers Ted


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

Just went into Illustrator and scaled everything up by 25% (gotta like drawing on a computer eh) This gives a track 60" x 240" or 5' x 20'. Apparently you can get 5' x 10' sheets of Sintra. Two sheets end to end for the 5' x 20' track. Scaling everything up changes the distance between lanes to 1.875". The radius of the tightest turn becomes 5" and the radius of the widest turn becomes a tad under 28".  

It's give more space between lanes and speed things up a bit as well. I'm sure either the 4' or the 5' would be fun to drive, just a different kind of driving experience on each.

Todd



Tsooko said:


> Todd
> 
> I'm thinking the 4' wide track has 4" radiused turns on the gutter lanes , what would be the radius be on a track 5' wide?
> The track I just built has 4.5" radius turns on the outside of the hairpin (blue lane) and I have to drive the corner, not go flat out with srt's and g-plus cars, but the mag force is higher than the stitching wire or AFX rails with the rebar wire power rails.
> ...


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

Seems like the consensus is red, white, green, orange, blue and yellow, from outside lane in. Sounds good to me! :thumbsup:



wheelszk said:


> The one I race on is RED,WHITE,GREEN,ORANGE,BLUE,and YELLOW


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## Tsooko (Oct 15, 2009)

tossedman said:


> This gives a track 60" x 240" or 5' x 20'. Apparently you can get 5' x 10' sheets of Sintra. Two sheets end to end for the 5' x 20' track.
> 
> Todd


The longer track would be awesome!:thumbsup:

Then the problem becomes finding a cnc router that you can fit a 5' x 10' sheet on. Most are 4' x 8' or smaller, although I have seen larger machines but they are few and far between and very expensive. Come on 6/49!! Back to the cnc forum, Todd.

Cheers Ted


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

I agree Ted a track this size would be a blast. Might have to look around for another commercial outfit. It'd be cheaper to route than my 1/32 Suzuka as it's only two sheets instead of 5. Might prove to be affordable if anyone can handle the small bit sizes needed.

Got my 6/49 ticket for tomorrow! :tongue:

Todd



Tsooko said:


> The longer track would be awesome!:thumbsup:
> 
> Then the problem becomes finding a cnc router that you can fit a 5' x 10' sheet on. Most are 4' x 8' or smaller, although I have seen larger machines but they are few and far between and very expensive. Come on 6/49!! Back to the cnc forum, Todd.
> 
> Cheers Ted


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

*OK, so I was bored...*

Got lots of friends? Got lots of space? How about an 8 lane Scorpion track in 5' x 20'? 1.5" lane spacing. Just wanted to see what it'd look like. :tongue: Can't see myself ever building one.










cheers,

Todd


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## wheelszk (Jul 8, 2006)

Check TKO tracks, this guy can build anything you want, www.cnccustomcutting.com
check it out


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

Ted's got a CNC router, I can make the design, so we can do anything we want as well. I think.  I hope! :freak: And for a lot cheaper than paying someone else to do it.  But thanks for the tip anyways.

Todd



wheelszk said:


> Check TKO tracks, this guy can build anything you want, www.cnccustomcutting.com
> check it out


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

*Table*

OK, I've settled on building a 4 lane Scorpion track. I was playing around in Google SketchUp and drew this table. The legs need more work but I wanted to see what drivers' stations would look like. I've designed it to be 28 inches off the floor so my young son can get at it without climbing all over it. For school, I'll make one higher. Anything I ought to be aware of in building a table for a track like this? 










Cheers,

Todd


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## martybauer31 (Jan 27, 2004)

I would build it with the drivers stations along the straightaway side... That way you can have the marshalls on the side where the most come offs will occur. That's how all the Scorpions I have raced on are set up.

http://www.g3championships.com/

Go to the tracks section, scroll down to the Neo Modified track, you'll the stations on the straight. Nice sketch up by the way!

Marty


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## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)

martybauer31 said:


> I would build it with the drivers stations along the straightaway side... That way you can have the marshalls on the side where the most come offs will occur . . .


Excellent observation.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

I agree with Marty on where the drivers stations should be.

If doing a 4-laner, I would go YELLOW, BLUE, WHITE, and RED (left to right) with the yellow lane the innermost lane on the front straight along the drivers station.

If I was building a table like that I would use plywood for all structural members and try to stay away from dimensional lumber. Do some research around "model railroad benchwork" to get some ideas about how to build a lightweight yet extremely strong and stable table using plywood.

http://rharden.com/RRBenchwork.aspx
http://books.google.com/books?id=KN...ood strips "model railroad benchwork"&f=false

The other thing to strive for is no sharp corners. If you can provide rounded corners on the table and drivers station the track will be much more user friendly. I would also come up with a design that allows you to easily access and clean under the table. The wall around the table should drop down to 2" above the drivers station in front of the drivers. A gradual transition looks best. The biggest challenge for a track table design is to keep it from looking like a "track in a box." I think that having curved corners and thinner side walls (not dimensional lumber) always looks better. Using 2x8 lumber for the side walls usually makes the whole table look big and clunky and enormously heavy. 

As far as drivers stations go, I'll tell you upfront that I'm very opinionated about them. I don't like any drivers station that uses metal posts that stick out. I also believe in the KISS principle, alligator hookups in a hole, wired for brakes, and a fuse or circuit breaker at every station. That's it. I prefer the drivers station to have a big pocket where I can place my controller. A flat shelf with no edge is just a place where something can get knocked on the floor. That being said, if you are primarily dealing with kids and if you are providing all of the controllers, then it would be fully reasonable to use a keyed/polarized connector of some sort, like a DIN connector and corresponding jack. Whatever you can do to ensure that the kids cannot come in contact with the conductors or hookup wrong will pay big dividends over the long run.

Bottom line is that it always comes down to personal taste and construction/fabrication ability. You obviously have an artistic touch and will no doubt achieve stellar results.


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

Good point Marty. Thanks for that link it was my original inspiration and I'd forgotten about it.



martybauer31 said:


> I would build it with the drivers stations along the straightaway side... That way you can have the marshalls on the side where the most come offs will occur. That's how all the Scorpions I have raced on are set up.
> 
> http://www.g3championships.com/
> 
> ...


Afxtoo, many good points as well. I'll change the lane colours. Seems to be the colours on the G3 Championship Scorpion as well.

Thanks for the table building links as well. I've got some ideas as to how to build the table but can always benefit from prior experience. What's in the drawing isn't how the final product will look but the darned thing needed some legs until I figure out the final design. Same goes for the drivers' stations. Still researching the best option for those.

So here's the revised table. Moved the drivers' stations closer to the centre of the track and dropped them down below the track surface to make wiring easier. I flipped the track around so the long straight is on the same side as the drivers stations. Changed the colours to what seem to be standard for a four lane track. Still need to change the lane colours on the track though. Dropped the front edge to give drivers a better view. Gave it a new coat of paint. I may add wheels so it's easier to move around. Whad'ya think? Anything else I need to think of? 










Cheers,

Todd



AfxToo said:


> I agree with Marty on where the drivers stations should be.
> 
> If doing a 4-laner, I would go YELLOW, BLUE, WHITE, and RED (left to right) with the yellow lane the innermost lane on the front straight along the drivers station.
> 
> ...


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

And here's a modified driver station - the blue one. With more of a box rather than just a lip. Ought to keep things in place a bit better.










Todd


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## martybauer31 (Jan 27, 2004)

You are really going to want to separate the drivers stations a little more than that for "elbow room". You get big guys that need more space, guys that weave back and forth, it takes all kinds, and the extra space between is nice to have....


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

Probably right again Marty. Here they are 36" apart instead of 25.5". :thumbsup:












martybauer31 said:


> You are really going to want to separate the drivers stations a little more than that for "elbow room". You get big guys that need more space, guys that weave back and forth, it takes all kinds, and the extra space between is nice to have....


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## martybauer31 (Jan 27, 2004)

Last suggestion....  Have a gap in the middle between white and blue so you can have a straightaway marshall, believe it or not, guys do come off heading into the straight...

Actually, looking at it, Yellow is the outside lane, followed by white, then red, tehn blue on the inside, if we are trying to be "official"


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## Tsooko (Oct 15, 2009)

martybauer31 said:


> Last suggestion....  Have a gap in the middle between white and blue so you can have a straightaway marshall, believe it or not, guys do come off heading into the straight...
> 
> Actually, looking at it, Yellow is the outside lane, followed by white, then red, tehn blue on the inside, if we are trying to be "official"


All the color cccccccodes I have seen make it Red, white, blue, Yellow for a four lane the red being the lane closest to the drivers' station. 
A 6 lane is red, white, green, orange, blue, yellow. 
8 lane is red, white, green, orange, blue, yellow, purple, black. This is the ???international standard and Brad Bowman writes about it in his booklet.
But your track, your colors, right!! 

Cheers Ted


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

Very nice. The basic table design looks pretty good. Maybe add some gussets at the table top to leg transition, or use plywood slab sides with an arched opening design. Simply dropping the wall in front of the drivers stations makes a big difference and reduces the track-in-a-box look a lot.

Very luxurious and spacious drivers stations. Just need to replace the sticky out pokey drivers station hookups with a flush or a polarized system and you'll be golden. I used a boxed design as well and put a rubberized matting on the bottom of my drivers stations boxes. Works great. Marty's suggestion was to leave a gap in the middle where there would be no drivers station and skinny up the size of the drivers stations. That's a pretty standard practice to allow a front side marshal. I find front side marshals to be very distracting but the other alternative is a track call, which is also annoying and breaks the race flow. There is a side benefit to making the drivers stations a little smaller. If you make the drivers stations really large the racers will drag way too much crap from their pit boxes to the track with them, especially when practicing. Next thing you know there's a couple of unhooked controllers, three rolls of tape, and a half dozen rear ends sets in the box. Clutter. Chaos. 

The lane colors from the wall edge inward are red - white - blue - yellow. Not really a big deal. You can do whatever lane colors you want but those are the colors that racers will usually have lane markers in their pit kits to work with. The only thing to avoid is having blue and green in adjacent lanes. Some people have a difficult time differentiating those two colors. 

Details ... details ... but you have a very solid grasp on the basics and are already well on your way to creating a great setup.


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## martybauer31 (Jan 27, 2004)

Yep, lane colors.... do them however you want, the way we do it in HOPAC with Brystal isn't necessarily how someone else will do it with a Bowman, it's all good as long as you tell the guys which lane to rotate to next. 

AfxToo's point of the blue/green lanes is a good one, I would also recommend yellow and orange separated if you go 6 lanes as well. Us color blind guys have a heck of a time with those 2 color combos.


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

*`11``*

Sorry, see the next post for what I really had to say...


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

*more...*

OK, so here it is again with the driver stations spaced out to allow for a marshall in the centre. Does this make it harder for the drivers on the ends to see the other end of the track and hit their breaking points? Or is this not a problem on a 16' track? Next question would be, are the driver stations in the right order? Is there a standard order to match the lane colours? Is the driver station for the inside lane as you face the track usually on the left?

Each driver station by the way, is 36" long. Still haven't decided on posts or plugs for the controller hookups Afxtoo. Plugs may make more sense for school as you say.

Added some wheels on the bottom. It'll probably need more and need to be beefed up a bit to withstand moving it around. It wouldn't be too hard to put cabinets under the table as well, adding some storage space. I'm going to build me one of these for home too so I'd probably add the cabinets there. Have to make it modular though or there's no way it'd ever leave my basement!












martybauer31 said:


> Yep, lane colors.... do them however you want, the way we do it in HOPAC with Brystal isn't necessarily how someone else will do it with a Bowman, it's all good as long as you tell the guys which lane to rotate to next.
> 
> AfxToo's point of the blue/green lanes is a good one, I would also recommend yellow and orange separated if you go 6 lanes as well. Us color blind guys have a heck of a time with those 2 color combos.


Marty, here's a picture from the G3 Championship tracks page. The lane colours are yellow, white, red, and blue on the inside. Is this a HOPAC thing? When you say "official" is that HOPAC official? Do different associations run different colours?  Inquiring minds want to know - well mine does anyway.

As an aside, I really want those 917's in that picture! I love 'em.  i want a whole set!

Like you say though, in the end I guess it all comes down to personal choice. I'm going to use red, white, blue and yellow in some form or another so I won't have to worry about yellow and orange and green and blue lanes beside each other. 

Thanks for all the input guys!

Todd











martybauer31 said:


> Last suggestion....  Have a gap in the middle between white and blue so you can have a straightaway marshall, believe it or not, guys do come off heading into the straight...
> 
> Actually, looking at it, Yellow is the outside lane, followed by white, then red, tehn blue on the inside, if we are trying to be "official"


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## martybauer31 (Jan 27, 2004)

tossedman said:


> OK, so here it is again with the driver stations spaced out to allow for a marshall in the centre. Does this make it harder for the drivers on the ends to see the other end of the track and hit their breaking points? Or is this not a problem on a 16' track? Next question would be, are the driver stations in the right order? Is there a standard order to match the lane colours? Is the driver station for the inside lane as you face the track usually on the left?
> 
> Each driver station by the way, is 36" long. Still haven't decided on posts or plugs for the controller hookups Afxtoo. Plugs may make more sense for school as you say.
> 
> ...


Heh, yes, that's the HOPAC official lane color order, and the drivers stations match that as well from left to right, not really sure how the other groups do it, it's all good really. As for drivers having difficulty seeing the other end of the track, I haven't ever really had a problem, the thing is, everyone has to deal with it so it evens out in the end.

I will say one last thing about the whole posts versus plugs, we use posts, because the majority of controllers out there have alligator clips, so people coming to race at your track in all likelihood will have that as well. If you aren't ever going to race with anyone but yourself and your kids, maybe a plug is ok, but you are dealing with a proprietary input and people will have to use what you have available and not get to use their own equipment. We have had 7 year olds race with us and they know that red goes to red and so on, it's not really that tough to clip on. Again... to each their own.

Hope that helps!


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

The wheels are a good idea but only if they have locks. The marshals will bump into the table when reaching for wayward cars. You do not want the table to move during the race. If you do go with wheels make sure they are rated for the proportion of the table weight they must carry. If your table weighs 200 lb. and you have 6 legs, each wheel should be rated for at least 200/6 or 33 lb. but engineering margin would tell you to go up by at least 25-50 percent. In this example I would use a wheel rated for 50 lb. minimum. Bottom line, check the weight rating on the wheels and don't undersize them.

I'm not a fan of the horizontal stiffening members along the bottom of the table. They are not load bearing and serve only to keep the legs straight. They add weight. There are other ways to keep the legs straight, like gussets and cross members. When I am working under the table, say to run wires for power taps, I want to be able to slide right on under the table, maybe using a creeper, with my legs free to hang out from under the table. The last thing I want to do is to crawl over and straddle that bottom horizontal member. Cue the "my back is aching" sound. Same goes for cleaning. Running a push broom or vacuum under the table is much easier without a built in obstacle. Cue the sound of wood banging against wood. I also prefer to use a cantilever design on the table top. Cue the sound of shin hitting the bottom of the table support. The ideal support points for minimizing bow and sag are to put supports at the 20% and 80% points of each dimension. If you have a 16 ft by 4 ft table, the base really only needs to be 9' 8" x 2' 5". I like to go with a little less overhang, say a 12' x 3' base. This technically makes it more susceptible to sag, but if you use 3/4" plywood to fabricate structural members instead of dimensional lumber, this is not an issue. If you go to 6 legs, you can pretty much put the legs wherever you want them at the cost of reduced under table accessibility. 

If you use posts for drivers stations, put them horizontally under a panel with a hole to reach through with the alligator clip. Don't have them sticking out where hands and other things can touch them. I can send you a design and pictures.


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

Don't discount using banquet table legs; I have them under my track. These are the legs used under folding tables and should be found in home improvement stores. These could come in handy if you ever wanted to fold up the legs and stand the table against a wall.

Joe


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

I'm leaning towards posts for my home track for that very reason. For school I think it may be plugs of some kind - DIN or otherwise because we'll be supplying the controllers. With Junior High students simpler is usually better. Lane colour order is still to be determined. And yes that helps Marty, Thanks again.



martybauer31 said:


> Heh, yes, that's the HOPAC official lane color order, and the drivers stations match that as well from left to right, not really sure how the other groups do it, it's all good really. As for drivers having difficulty seeing the other end of the track, I haven't ever really had a problem, the thing is, everyone has to deal with it so it evens out in the end.
> 
> I will say one last thing about the whole posts versus plugs, we use posts, because the majority of controllers out there have alligator clips, so people coming to race at your track in all likelihood will have that as well. If you aren't ever going to race with anyone but yourself and your kids, maybe a plug is ok, but you are dealing with a proprietary input and people will have to use what you have available and not get to use their own equipment. We have had 7 year olds race with us and they know that red goes to red and so on, it's not really that tough to clip on. Again... to each their own.
> 
> Hope that helps!


Here are the wheels I'd use. Can hold lots of weight. I'll use all locking wheels as well.

My home track is to be as light as possible, the school track will be as sturdy as possible. That's what'll determine the leg construction. With the table on wheels, cleaning under it will be easy but good point about crawling under to do the wiring.

I'd love to take a look at your idea for horizontal posts. Thanks again.



AfxToo said:


> The wheels are a good idea but only if they have locks. The marshals will bump into the table when reaching for wayward cars. You do not want the table to move during the race. If you do go with wheels make sure they are rated for the proportion of the table weight they must carry. If your table weighs 200 lb. and you have 6 legs, each wheel should be rated for at least 200/6 or 33 lb. but engineering margin would tell you to go up by at least 25-50 percent. In this example I would use a wheel rated for 50 lb. minimum. Bottom line, check the weight rating on the wheels and don't undersize them.
> 
> I'm not a fan of the horizontal stiffening members along the bottom of the table. They are not load bearing and serve only to keep the legs straight. They add weight. There are other ways to keep the legs straight, like gussets and cross members. When I am working under the table, say to run wires for power taps, I want to be able to slide right on under the table, maybe using a creeper, with my legs free to hang out from under the table. The last thing I want to do is to crawl over and straddle that bottom horizontal member. Cue the "my back is aching" sound. Same goes for cleaning. Running a push broom or vacuum under the table is much easier without a built in obstacle. Cue the sound of wood banging against wood. I also prefer to use a cantilever design on the table top. Cue the sound of shin hitting the bottom of the table support. The ideal support points for minimizing bow and sag are to put supports at the 20% and 80% points of each dimension. If you have a 16 ft by 4 ft table, the base really only needs to be 9' 8" x 2' 5". I like to go with a little less overhang, say a 12' x 3' base. This technically makes it more susceptible to sag, but if you use 3/4" plywood to fabricate structural members instead of dimensional lumber, this is not an issue. If you go to 6 legs, you can pretty much put the legs wherever you want them at the cost of reduced under table accessibility.
> 
> If you use posts for drivers stations, put them horizontally under a panel with a hole to reach through with the alligator clip. Don't have them sticking out where hands and other things can touch them. I can send you a design and pictures.


And yet another good idea Joe. Do you find your table to be pretty sturdy with the banquet table legs?

Cheers,

Todd



Grandcheapskate said:


> Don't discount using banquet table legs; I have them under my track. These are the legs used under folding tables and should be found in home improvement stores. These could come in handy if you ever wanted to fold up the legs and stand the table against a wall.
> 
> Joe


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

tossedman said:


> And yet another good idea Joe. Do you find your table to be pretty sturdy with the banquet table legs?


Todd,
The table I built at my parent's house (where I have to spend a lot of my time) was made from stuff that was just lying around, so it wasn't made to high standards.

The table legs are working out fine for me, but it's only me at the track. I don't have a bunch of guys pushing on it or being stressed from the weight of multiple sagging beer bellies. But, having said that, I find it to be completely sturdy. You might even be able to put wheels under the legs if you worked on it.

Just check out an existing folding table. If that's sturdy enough for you, then that's what your table would be like. 

My table top itself isn't that good either. If it was a solid piece of plywood, I'd bet it would be even better. I had two 7.5' x 2.5' foot pieces of plywood that I wanted to use as a table top. In order to use them, I had to put a piece of furring strip on the underside of the table to tie them together, and then screw the legs into the furring strip. Even with this convoluted design, the table is steady and firm.

And nothing stops you from putting multiple legs under it, even at right angles to each other.

Joe


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

I'm thinking about build a version of this track for home as well but don't have the same sort of space that I have at school. I want to make a track that can raise and lower from the ceiling but not swing around on cables. I want it to be unobtrusive and light weight (ie I don't want a 300 lb, 10" thick box hanging from the rafters).

Here's an idea I've had for a while.

What I'm thinking of is using extruded aluminum for the table frame, covered with 1/4 plywood. It would hang from the ceiling with one side against the wall. I know that makes marshalling more challenging but space limitations call for some compromise. The side against the wall would have garage door wheels attached and running in garage door rails recessed in the wall. I've drawn 5 but that's probably too many. Cables would run from a winch, over pulleys, to the front and back of the tables. The cables at the back would be in or in front of the rails. The three at the front of the table would be free hanging. There will be folding legs that will be hinged to clip up out of the way when the table is lifted.

I'd have plexiglass side wall that are removable when the track is lifted. T nuts in the extruded aluminum frame would allow for the plexiglass to be easily removed and attached using quick release clamps. Driver stations would be minimal, just a place to hook up controllers and maybe a hook or basket to hang them in.

Thinks it's possible?  Anything else I'd need to think of? Here's some diagrams:




























Cheers,

Todd


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

Very interesting use of a garage door opener. Definitely possible but complex.

I would think about something much simpler, like mounting the table on a hinge running along the wall and folding it against the wall for stowage. If you use a metal frame and thin wood top it should still intrude very little into the space when folded. The front legs can nest in recesses when folded up and the sheet plastic side walls can slide into sleeves on the underside of the table when stowed. You may even want to use some sort of mesh netting based side walls.

If you do go with an aluminum frame with plywood top I would fill every cavity under the frame with a high density foam rubber to knock down some of the track noise noise.

The potential complexity with the fold-up design comes when you consider the folding up operation. If you want it to be a one person affair you may need pulleys and counterweights. You also have to decide whether it hinges up or hinges down.


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## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)

The garage door thing is fine until the table bows in the middle and binds. Ever try to line up a garage door? It sucks.

I'd hinge it against the wall, folding up, with the legs folding under.


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

You know sometimes I can't see the trees for the forest. A hinged setup on the wall makes more sense. Simpler, easier to build, probably safer - I'm sure floor joists aren't engineered to have weight hanging off the bottom.

It would have to hinge down as 48" is too high for my young son to reach. I'll have to figure out how rigid this stuff is. I'm thinking because of its shape it ought not to bow or sag too much.

Has anyone got any experience in working with extruded aluminum? I guess I ought to price it out first. Could have a table worth thousands if I'm not careful. I'm waiting to hear back from the company that makes it for more information.

Thanks again for your input gents. :thumbsup:

Todd



AfxToo said:


> Very interesting use of a garage door opener. Definitely possible but complex.
> 
> I would think about something much simpler, like mounting the table on a hinge running along the wall and folding it against the wall for stowage. If you use a metal frame and thin wood top it should still intrude very little into the space when folded. The front legs can nest in recesses when folded up and the sheet plastic side walls can slide into sleeves on the underside of the table when stowed. You may even want to use some sort of mesh netting based side walls.
> 
> ...





1976Cordoba said:


> The garage door thing is fine until the table bows in the middle and binds. Ever try to line up a garage door? It sucks.
> 
> I'd hinge it against the wall, folding up, with the legs folding under.


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

So let's just forget that the idea of hanging the track from the ceiling ever existed. More playing around in Google SketchUp and I came up with these renditions of the track and the space that I have available to put it in. I still need to finish the basement but here's what I'm planning on doing.

I'd now like to hinge the track to the wall to keep it out of the way. Details as to how still to be determined.

Here's a view of the whole basement with the track folded down from the wall.










And here's a view with the track folded up. I actually moved the window up a bit to make it fit because that was quicker than resizing the table legs and moving it all. The frame underneath will need further study as I've not built with extruded aluminum before.










And here's a couple of closer views of the same thing.



















Thoughts always welcome,

Todd

ps I've been drawing up the basement plans for months, this all didn't happen this weekend, just added the track.


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## Tsooko (Oct 15, 2009)

*extruded aluminium*

You go first class Todd:

The aluminium is also called 80/20 and can be found here:

http://www.8020.net/PostalLookup.asp

and here

http://stores.ebay.com/8020-Inc-Garage-Sale

and there is a Canadian distributer here:

Rocky Mountian Motion Company
3063 - 27 a st.
Aldergrove ,BC 
PH. 604-607-6443

It is commonly used to make the framework for the cnc router kits and diy machines, as well as other things like shelving for warehouses. It can be pricey.

Just a concern I have and that is that the table, in the up position, has no way to fall down by itself as this could give a small guy a pretty big headache. Maybe a lock????

Things are looking pretty good. 

Oh yeah, is the jewel safe behind the bookcase? :devil:

My guess is Dr. Parma , in the study, with the controller wire.  :jest:

Cheers Ted


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

Hey Ted,

Thanks for the links. I found this one as well http://www13.boschrexroth-us.com/Framing_Shop/Product/Default.aspx?units=1 Apparently they have an office in Edmonton.

As for the drawing it's just the idea. There's actually no hardware in it. Just a table balanced on three legs and leaned up against the wall. Where it's folded up it's defying gravity and levitating in the air against the wall. The levitation is a safety feature. You have to cross your fingers and say a secret chant three times to make it come down. 

Actually, I'm thinking of a lock to keep it up and down. Perhaps some kind of counter-weight to make lowering and raising it easier and safer. Maybe hydraulic cylinders? How about the kind of springs used on a murphy bed? I dunno. Although I do like the levitation mode.

And how'd you know where the jewel safe is? You been prowling again? :tongue:

And lastly, it was Dr. Parma, but not in the study.... 

Cheers,

Todd

ps Did you get that -46.1° that Edmonton got? brrrrrrrrr











Tsooko said:


> You go first class Todd:
> 
> The aluminium is also called 80/20 and can be found here:
> 
> ...


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## Tsooko (Oct 15, 2009)

[quote Although I do like the levitation mode.

And how'd you know where the jewel safe is? You been prowling again? :tongue:

And lastly, it was Dr. Parma, but not in the study.... 
ps Did you get that -46.1° that Edmonton got? brrrrrrrrr







[/quote]

:lol: I like the little , tongue stuck to the pipe guy.
If you can do levitation, I can do ESP, that's how I knew where the Jewelry safe was.
It's so cold here that the bannanas are falling off the trees. Actually colder than Edmonton by a few bannanas. Makes it hard to walk about, as people keep falling down on the bannanas. I think I'm going bannanas! :beatdeadhorse: :wave:

Cheers Ted


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Aluminium is harder to weld then mild steel.The weight differance between sq mild steel tubing and extruded aluminium isn't enough to offset the cost differances and difficulty in my opinion Todd.
I should'a had you grab my table and give it a lift when you were out,it's all 1" sq steel tubing,and it's reasonably lightweight.Shop around the city,you can usually find recycled mild steel tubing fairly easily.
Rick


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

Hey Rick, 

I didn't even realize that your table had a steel frame when I was there. Couldn't get beyond marvelling at the amount of wire under that thing. I'll take a look at steel as well, everything still in the early planning stages here. The extruded aluminum pieces all bolt together like meccano. Thought that'd make you more interested in it. lol

How you guys doing? Started your racing season yet? I've been as busy as on Friday nights and haven't been able to make it out.

Cheers,

Todd




Hornet said:


> Aluminium is harder to weld then mild steel.The weight differance between sq mild steel tubing and extruded aluminium isn't enough to offset the cost differances and difficulty in my opinion Todd.
> I should'a had you grab my table and give it a lift when you were out,it's all 1" sq steel tubing,and it's reasonably lightweight.Shop around the city,you can usually find recycled mild steel tubing fairly easily.
> Rick


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

LOL,i haven't made it out since the night you were there.
Because of our beautiful weather on the last 3 friday's,i've held the couch down.
Don't worry you're not the first guy to miss the steel table frame,the wiring is just a bit overkill,it kinda takes your attention away from the table frame:wave:.
Don't worry about a welder if you don't have access to one,you can borrow my little 120V Lincoln mig if need be,any metal working tools you need,i should be able come up with (grinders/drillpress etc.).
When i bought the steel for my table,i bought recycled steel tubing,and at the time it wasn't much more then buying 2X4's,mind you that was close to 10 years ago .
Might have to have another Sunday afternoon bull session at my house,just so you can look the frame over,lol
Rick

As a side note,hey Gene it's good to see you again,missed your wit and wisdom lad.
Rick


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

Sounds good Rick, both on the welding and on another Sunday afternoon. Pick a day and let me know. I have to admit I didn't get far from home these past few Fridays either. Chinook's blowing in tomorrow though so that ought to thaw things out a bit. :thumbsup:

Have a good one!

Todd 



Hornet said:


> LOL,i haven't made it out since the night you were there.
> Because of our beautiful weather on the last 3 friday's,i've held the couch down.
> Don't worry you're not the first guy to miss the steel table frame,the wiring is just a bit overkill,it kinda takes your attention away from the table frame:wave:.
> Don't worry about a welder if you don't have access to one,you can borrow my little 120V Lincoln mig if need be,any metal working tools you need,i should be able come up with (grinders/drillpress etc.).
> ...


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Hornet said:


> As a side note,hey Gene it's good to see you again,missed your wit and wisdom lad.
> Rick


Well hey there Rick :wave:


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Todd any time you want to come out and take another look at my table,give me a shout,i'm kicking around the house today,more or less holding down the couch:thumbsup:
Hey Gene,hadn't seen you around in awhile,so it's good to see you back posting these days.
Rick


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

Hey Rick,
I'll take you up on that offer but not today. Today's not going to work, as you may already have already figured out. Couldn't make Friday either. Squash went late and then we had a few wobbly pops. Make sure that couch doesn't get away on ya!

Todd



Hornet said:


> Todd any time you want to come out and take another look at my table,give me a shout,i'm kicking around the house today,more or less holding down the couch:thumbsup:
> Hey Gene,hadn't seen you around in awhile,so it's good to see you back posting these days.
> Rick


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Todd how many spare rolls of stitching wire do you have,i might be interested in 1,if you've got any spares:thumbsup:


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

I can get one to you and to Lyle as well if he wants. Each roll is about 1400'.

Todd



Hornet said:


> Todd how many spare rolls of stitching wire do you have,i might be interested in 1,if you've got any spares:thumbsup:


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