# just a question about wizzard brushes



## joegri (Feb 13, 2008)

i,m reading that the wizzard brushes are the best for t-jets(horse power gains and such) but what is throwing me of is 3 different types. lets see there is e81 / e81 a/ e81b / and so on.i figuired i,d get the real lowdown here.also went back 18 pages nothin there.i dont want to beat an old subject. so any takers on this subject?also let me be long winded for a sec i tried the bill hall method of shoe bending last nite WOW!! try that for some power gains.:wave:


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## Brixmix (Dec 2, 2007)

The different part numbers are the same brush, but they are different quantity's the E81 is one pair, the E81A is for 10 pair, and E81B is for 100 pair.


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## SuperFist (Aug 7, 2005)

*Note:*

Wizzard E81 brushes have a top and bottom. Sometimes you can't see it
It's because the brushes are broached (stamped) to the diameter and not cut to length.
How you can tell is gently rub a new brush on a sheet of paper.
One side will have a sharp edge that catches on the grain of the paper.
The sharp edge side will go toward the spring and the smooth edge side toward the commutator.

__________________


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## joegri (Feb 13, 2008)

now dats what i,m talkin bout. i knew i,d get some clairity on this topic! thanx for straitining that out for me .


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

SuperFist is right, but it should be added that they will perform _much_ better if you smooth (flatten) the faces first, especially the comm side. That can be applied to any brand tjet brush.

:thumbsup:


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## waltgpierce (Jul 9, 2005)

*Brush comparison*

My apologies for this being difficult to read. I cannot seem to get the test results to format properly.

SYNOPSIS: A non-scientific comparison test of the Stock, HOWORLD, J.B. Thunderbrushes, and Wizzard High Performance motor brushes for the Thunderjet HO-scale slot car as it relates to performance, using a relative measure of revolutions per minute (RPM) at the rear tires.

Two new chassis were used for the testing. 
- Chassis #1 was a “F” chassis, “H” top plate, Black/Black magnets, and a gold wire arm.
- Chassis #2 was an “A” chassis, “G” top plate, White/Green magnets, and a gold wire arm.

Test procedure:
Both chassis were lightly oiled before each test.
The order of testing was randomly chosen.
Each pair of brushes was gently rubbed on a piece of 24lb weight notebook paper, to smooth the brush surface and edges.
For break-in, each pair of the various motor brushes were run in the chassis at 6 volts for 3 minutes, with the idler gear removed. Following this, the idler gear was re-installed and the chassis was run at 18 volts for 3 minutes. The motor brush/chassis was then tested at 18.0 volts. Power was applied directly to the pick-up shoes via small alligator clips. The armature commutator was cleaned between each test, using a rubber-type eraser followed by soft fiber bristle brush.
Each chassis/motor brush combination was tested on a homemade dynamometer, which provided a relative measure of the revolutions per minute (RPM) at the rear tire(s).
Following testing in the two different stock chassis, the motor brush tension was adjusted to yield the highest tested RPM. Thus, two tests were performed on each chassis/motor brush combination.

Additionally, two pair of each of the various motor brushes were measured for height. The results were averaged. 
Stock motor brushes - .062 inches in height
HOWORLD motor brushes - .084 inches in height
JB Thunderbrushes - .068 inches in height
Wizzard motor brushes - .071 inches in height


TEST results:
The higher the number the higher the RPM of the rear wheels

BRUSH type Chassis #1 Chassis #2	
STOCK	
Stock tension 605 545
Maximized tension	735 685

HOWORLD	
Stock tension 440/485* 540
Maximized tension	625/655* 605	

JB Thunderbrush	
Stock tension 680 610
Maximized tension	775 700

Wizzard	
Stock tension 690 615
Maximized tension	790 695	

* Due to the test numbers being significantly lower than the other tested brushes, the idler gear was removed and the chassis re-run on the 6 volt power supply for 15 additional minutes. This was done to further break-in/seat the brushes. The second number is the result of the additional time.

OBSERVATIONS:
The HOWORLD, JB Thunderbrushes, and Wizzard brushes deposited much less on the armature commutator, whereas the Stock brushes required more cleaning of the commutator surface.

CONCLUSION:
Due to the unscientific methodology and limited testing, no conclusions are being made.


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## T-jetjim (Sep 12, 2005)

Walt - although you don't risk a conclusion, I enjoyed your comparison. I haven't purchased HO World or Wizzards, but have certainly seen a lift in JB's over stock.

Thanks for running the test.

Jim


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## joegri (Feb 13, 2008)

walter has put in some time on this subject ,and i,ve read it 3 times now i think im seeing any brush that is aftermarket should and will perform better than stock and its a matter of choice.i did buy some wizzard brushes that should be in the mail. i guess i should get some ho world brushes too. i did read on the how site a review about their brushes and price is a factor too.i,ve been playing with these lil cars for 3 winters now and have learned so much from the guys here on ht.just when i think i know something i realize i dont know jack!i,m heading back to the fray tuning thread and read and comprehend whats there again. thanx for adding your knowledge to this thread its appriciated and i check back 2 times a day to get some feedback. now i,m gonna do some testing of my own and see what i come up with.if i see something earthshaking i,ll report back.


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## slotnewbie69 (Dec 3, 2008)

i run notched and bevelled silver brushes in my tjets.any thoughts?


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## waltgpierce (Jul 9, 2005)

The silver compound brushes (at least those from Alan Galinko) are far and above the best performing brushes. They exceed the Wizzard and JB Thunderbrushes in every car that I have tested them in. However, most Clubs do not allow them, except for drag racing. 
The problem with silver compound brushes is that they do wear very quickly and leave residue on the comm plate of the armature. This residue can fill the gaps between the comm plates and shorten the life of the armature. So, if you do run silver compound brushes, watch for brush wear and clean the comm plates (especially the gaps) on a regular schedule.


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## lenny (Feb 29, 2000)

joegri said:


> walter has put in some time on this subject ,and i,ve read it 3 times now i think im seeing any brush that is aftermarket should and will perform better than stock and its a matter of choice.i did buy some wizzard brushes that should be in the mail. i guess i should get some ho world brushes too. i did read on the how site a review about their brushes and price is a factor too.i,ve been playing with these lil cars for 3 winters now and have learned so much from the guys here on ht.just when i think i know something i realize i dont know jack!i,m heading back to the fray tuning thread and read and comprehend whats there again. thanx for adding your knowledge to this thread its appriciated and i check back 2 times a day to get some feedback. now i,m gonna do some testing of my own and see what i come up with.if i see something earthshaking i,ll report back.



So between Wizzard and Thunderbrushes, they seem to be fairly even performers with the Wiz brushes holding maybe a slight edge, and both provide a performance boost over stock.

Is this pretty much a true statement?

joegri, did you like your WIZ brushes?

Dan


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

Anybody else...

.... think the Wizzard brushes take a little longer to seat?

.... have a better service life?

.... I agree they produce way less crud!


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## bearsox (Apr 22, 2006)

Galinko is the best hands down for those willing to care for the arms as the performance is superior in every way. That said most of us prefer less maintenance so give some wizzards a good rub and a TREK-X and they do just fine. Stock brushes have just too much trash material blended into the mash causing loss of conduction and are too thin causing loss of tension range.

Bear :wave:


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## waltgpierce (Jul 9, 2005)

Lenny,
You are correct. The Wizzard and JB brushes out-performed both the HOWORLD and Stock brushes.
The Wizzard brushes were _slightly_ better than the JB brushes.


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## lenny (Feb 29, 2000)

waltgpierce said:


> Lenny,
> You are correct. The Wizzard and JB brushes out-performed both the HOWORLD and Stock brushes.
> The Wizzard brushes were _slightly_ better than the JB brushes.


Walt,
Thanks for the info. The reason I dug up this old thread and am asking is that I'm considering using one or both as 'original equipment' brushes for the Dash T-Jet chassis. 

Dan


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## joegri (Feb 13, 2008)

lenny i,m thinkin that wizard brushes are fine but if were to come down to cost go with the lesser and me as a buyer can change them out at anytime. what ever you deciede it,s not gonna stop the many of us that are eagerly awaiting the new chassis!i can only speak for me but i,ve been holding off from buying anything till the new girl shows up.


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

For a production product the JB's are _much_ more consistent. :thumbsup:


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## lenny (Feb 29, 2000)

SwamperGene said:


> For a production product the JB's are _much_ more consistent. :thumbsup:


How so? Please explain.


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## ParkRNDL (Mar 20, 2002)

lenny said:


> Walt,
> Thanks for the info. The reason I dug up this old thread and am asking is that I'm considering using one or both as 'original equipment' brushes for the Dash T-Jet chassis.
> 
> Dan


w00t! i noticed your post and was hoping it was something like that. can't wait to see the new product...

--rick


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Density, overall composition. While neither are 100% (none are) the variances are far greater with Wizzard brushes. While both have one concave face, I've literally had to take many a Wizzard brush down to stock Aurora height just to get 'em flat. And pitting....look at a few of each under a good 10x or better loupe, then try to smooth 'em out and inspect them again. It seems that on a Wiz brush, as you get rid of one layer of pits, a new layer, just as bad, is exposed. This looser density can also be noticable on the edges, sometimes to the naked eye. 

To take it to the track, I've built a lot of cars for a lot of guys, and I've never had to "try another" JB brush, where with Wizzards I'd estimate 25% of the time I'd have a bad "new" brush. In my book, the only attribute that makes a Wizzard brush a perfomer of any kind is it's height, at stock height they are complete dogs.


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## lenny (Feb 29, 2000)

SwamperGene said:


> Density, overall composition. While neither are 100% (none are) the variances are far greater with Wizzard brushes. While both have one concave face, I've literally had to take many a Wizzard brush down to stock Aurora height just to get 'em flat. And pitting....look at a few of each under a good 10x or better loupe, then try to smooth 'em out and inspect them again. It seems that on a Wiz brush, as you get rid of one layer of pits, a new layer, just as bad, is exposed. This looser density can also be noticable on the edges, sometimes to the naked eye.
> 
> To take it to the track, I've built a lot of cars for a lot of guys, and I've never had to "try another" JB brush, where with Wizzards I'd estimate 25% of the time I'd have a bad "new" brush. In my book, the only attribute that makes a Wizzard brush a perfomer of any kind is it's height, at stock height they are complete dogs.


that's the kind of feedback I can use. thank you


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

lenny said:


> that's the kind of feedback I can use. thank you


Anytime, Dan :dude:


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

Agreed Gene!

Fit, finish and consistency goes to JB's. I've had wizzards that look like chunks of tootsie roll ya busted off.


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## bearsox (Apr 22, 2006)

As i understand things a couple of years ago Wizzard had issues with the brush supplier. At that time they moved to a secondary contractor who made similar but somehow inferior brushes ( note some subtle changes to color and density ) . Then they found the brushes were not so widely accepted and folks complained about chipped edges among other problems. So they worked things out with the original guy to make them again. Now i have heard but cannot confirm they still had a lot of the inferior brushes they still sold but till when... who knows . Also who knows what shops or persons still have the inferior brushes floating around assuming the whole story here is true. This was a story told to me by someone else who i believe had no reason to deceive me and is a Wizzard dealer to this day.


Bear :wave:


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## SuperFist (Aug 7, 2005)

*bearsox*

What you say is true, I was there.

That's exactly what happened.

__________________


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## WooffWooff (Dec 23, 2009)

*I agree with "Swampergene"*

But the above test results makes we want to get that bag-o-wizzards outs and try again. If I ever get a pair to run like the JB's always do, it will be the first-time................wooff


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## partspig (Mar 12, 2003)

I use JB's. I have found they give me consistent flow even to the point where they are nearly worn out! Which takes quite a long time by the way. That just does not happen with any other brand. The only other ones that came close were the "Tall Boys" I used to get from Axel and Hidden Springs.


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## smalltime (Jun 3, 2006)

For what it's worth:
I know that the four best builders in these parts will only use Wizzard brushes.The "bad" batch of these is fairly easy to see, as they are a darker copper color.

As for the pitting, I have found that if your brushes are pitting, it's not because of the brushes, it's the com/spring settup. (probably a sign of float).

If the springs are firm, as I'm shure they will be, you should not have this problem on a new chassis.


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

smalltime said:


> As for the pitting, I have found that if your brushes are pitting, it's not because of the brushes, it's the com/spring settup. (probably a sign of float).


Tim the pitting I was refering to was "out of the bag".


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## smalltime (Jun 3, 2006)

I'm sorry, I guess I haven't seen that in any of the ones I've used.

It probably doesn't make any difference anyway, I read somewere that Dash will be using John Balson's brushes for his new venture.


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## bearsox (Apr 22, 2006)

There's room for both on the scene as allways and guys will pick and choose based on personal preference just as i do. Either of these 2 choices is a good one Dan so i don't see anyone making a fuss. 

Bear:wave:


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## lenny (Feb 29, 2000)

bearsox said:


> There's room for both on the scene as allways and guys will pick and choose based on personal preference just as i do. Either of these 2 choices is a good one Dan so i don't see anyone making a fuss.
> 
> Bear:wave:


I have to go with consistency. And that appears to be JB. Too much is at stake to go with any component that has had quality concerns.


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## bearsox (Apr 22, 2006)

lenny said:


> I have to go with consistency. And that appears to be JB. Too much is at stake to go with any component that has had quality concerns.


True enough as i don't recall a hicup from JB's . Even if it was but 1 i recall from Wiz that was 1 more than JB had and if the volume is big enough that's alot of $$$$.

Bear :wave:


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## resinmonger (Mar 5, 2008)

I count three smarts moves on Lenny's part:

1) Don't _reinvent the wheel _when there is already a sound part available.

2) Use customer experience to minimize risk of quality issues.

3) Let quality drive selections.

I'm looking forward to the new chassis. :thumbsup:


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## joegri (Feb 13, 2008)

resinman no truer words have been said. i agree with the above.


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## tjd241 (Jan 25, 2004)

*BIG JB fans here at Land HO....*

Where seldom was heard a discouraging word and the cars were all happy... all day. :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## mikeponiatowski (Jan 24, 2006)

*Moot point*



resinmonger said:


> I count three smarts moves on Lenny's part:
> 
> 1) Don't _reinvent the wheel _when there is already a sound part available.
> 
> ...




Great thread, now all for naught with demise of Dash. Bad news for all of us.


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## resinmonger (Mar 5, 2008)

Yes Mike. Kinda ruins the whole day.


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