# Need some info on Dragon Models' "Lunar Approach"



## flyingfrets (Oct 19, 2001)

Anybody know anything about Dragon Models' "Lunar Approach?" I mean the kit, not the diecast.

Exterior detailing looks excellent, but I can't find any mention or photos of cockpit detail anywhere online. By reason of that ommission, I'm assuming they're not represented in the kit. Anyone know for sure if this is the case?


----------



## miniature sun (May 1, 2005)

I was curious about this kit too. Dragon are notorious for showing great CAD images then not delivering in the actual kit.
I wonder whether this is simply a kit version of the assembled model.
They also list a landed version of the LM.


----------



## Xenodyssey (Aug 27, 2008)

I'm curious about the kits myself after seeing the announcments. I haven't read anything about interior detail though.


----------



## jgoldader (Mar 26, 2008)

I have both the kits, the lunar approach and landing. They are gorgeous, but not without flaws. Regulars over at the Yahoo space modelers group and on collectspace have been hashing them out, but I've seen no complete list. The CSM appears to be good, but the LM has some issues. I have yet to see a completed build, though I know at least a couple of people have started on it.

The biggest problem is that the descent stage is too short, by a significant amount (a couple of millimeters). The descent stage is molded in basically two pieces: a single large "tub" representing the sides and bottom, with a cover for the top. Since Dragon molded in the foil pattern (with textures), I don't know if it's possible (at least for me, given my skills) to blend in a spacer between the cover and tub to make up the difference. It's not obvious the legs are long enough to fit properly if the spacer is added, though there's a little slack, since the top supports for the legs have to be bent down on the kit.

There are some other issues; there is a scimitar antenna on the front of the LM ascent stage that should not be there, though it will be easy to remove. 

Myself, I haven't started on the kit yet. I need to find some way to replicate the different foils using only paint, so I can make use of the textured coverings on the descent stage. I'm going to try several mixes of the transparent Createx brown/yellow/red paints over various color basecoats.

So what's the bottom line? If all you want is a model that looks like the Apollo CSM/LM in 1/72, by all means get this kit. You will not be disappointed. The "landing" version has a beautiful base and nice little astronaut figures (reduced versions of the 1/24 Dragon astronauts). If you're a stickler for accuracy, you've got some work to do. 

I should note there's a 1/48 scale LM on the way from Dragon, but it could have the same flaws as the 1/72. Only in bigger scale! 

Jeff


----------



## flyingfrets (Oct 19, 2001)

miniature sun said:


> I was curious about this kit too. Dragon are notorious for showing great CAD images then not delivering in the actual kit.
> I wonder whether this is simply a kit version of the assembled model.
> They also list a landed version of the LM.


I'm pretty sure the kit is already out. I've seen several online retailers advertizing them as "In Stock." Photoetched antenae & docking probe are mentioned in most, but I've yet to see a parts lay-out photo anywhere.

Again, based on available information (in this case the price), one is left with the impression that the kit is plastic (retailing from $35 - $45) for the CSM *AND* LM while a single diecast (CSM *OR* LM) going $45 - $75.

There's also the Revell re-pop of the 1/48 CSM & LM (due this fall) to consider, but I'd rather not mess with trying to convert a Block I CSM to Block II. 1/72 is also a more managable scale for me, so I guess we'll just have to wait & see if any more info is made available.



jgoldader said:


> The biggest problem is that the descent stage is too short, by a significant amount (a couple of millimeters). The descent stage is molded in basically two pieces: a single large "tub" representing the sides and bottom, with a cover for the top. Since Dragon molded in the foil pattern (with textures), I don't know if it's possible (at least for me, given my skills) to blend in a spacer between the cover and tub to make up the difference. It's not obvious the legs are long enough to fit properly if the spacer is added, though there's a little slack, since the top supports for the legs have to be bent down on the kit.
> 
> There are some other issues; there is a scimitar antenna on the front of the LM ascent stage that should not be there, though it will be easy to remove.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the heads up Jeff. I'd seen some discussions on the possibility of the descent stage being too short but wasn't able to determine if this was a fact or not until now. Extending the height isn't too much of an issue (provided the legs are indeed long enough to accomodate the stretch) since I'd actually foil it (paint won't cut it for me, but that's just personal preference).

Small corrections like the scimitar antenna are no problem and certainly far less time consuming than a total conversion so this is good news.

Can you lay the original question to rest...are the cockpits represented in the kit or not?

Thanks again!


----------



## jgoldader (Mar 26, 2008)

flyingfrets said:


> Can you lay the original question to rest...are the cockpits represented in the kit or not?
> 
> Thanks again!



There are no interiors represented for the kits. There are no cutouts for the windows, just decals.

Jeff


----------



## flyingfrets (Oct 19, 2001)

Thank you kindly!


----------



## jgoldader (Mar 26, 2008)

I'll try to snap a couple of pics later. I spent a few minutes looking for accuracy issues, will summarize those as well.

It would be nice if somebody made a "clear" kit of accessories. A clear CM shell with interior and crew would be nice, and perhaps a clear panel or two plus interior for the LM.

Jeff


----------



## miniature sun (May 1, 2005)

Given the historical significance of the Apollo programme I'm really surprised that somebody hasn't produced a state of the art LM at 1/48 or even 1/32....this one from Dragon seems a little sloppy given the minute details they cover on their tank range.


----------



## flyingfrets (Oct 19, 2001)

jgoldader said:


> I'll try to snap a couple of pics later. I spent a few minutes looking for accuracy issues, will summarize those as well.
> 
> It would be nice if somebody made a "clear" kit of accessories. A clear CM shell with interior and crew would be nice, and perhaps a clear panel or two plus interior for the LM.
> 
> Jeff


The pics would be MUCH appreciated. 

I can't speak for Glenn or Tomas, but RealSpaceModels or New Ware would seem to be logical candidates since they've done similar kits for the Monogram 1/32 CM and the Revell 1/24 Gemini.



miniature sun said:


> Given the historical significance of the Apollo programme I'm really surprised that somebody hasn't produced a state of the art LM at 1/48 or even 1/32....this one from Dragon seems a little sloppy given the minute details they cover on their tank range.


No argument there, but I'm still glad to see this piece since the CSM & LM are in scale with one another. The only other larger kit with both in the same scale was the aforementioned 1/48 Revell, with the Block I CSM. Still, as you say, Dragon is capable of so much more than they seem to have put forth in this model. Balancing economic reality as any business must, I'd suppose they spent what they felt was proportionally feasible (based on their expected return) on tooling the kit. That seems fair enough...


----------



## bert model maker (Feb 19, 2002)

Frets, look at this, http://www.dragon-models.com/catalog/space/Space.htm
Bert


----------



## flyingfrets (Oct 19, 2001)

Yeah, I saw those a few days ago Bert. A lot of those appear to be diecast items (nice but not my cup of tea). I'm sure there's a way to tell which is which by their product numbers, but you can usually figure it out if you look close enough.

The Armstrong figure looks very nice but on the whole, as miniature sun remarked, the detail on the spacecraft isn't quite what I'd expected from Dragon (based on their attention to detail regarding other subjects), but better than what's been out there for years.

I'd like to see some of the other spacecraft they're doing as 1/72 diecast available in kit form though (Gemin for one), but RealSpace has an extremely nice resin kit of Mercury, Gemini & the Apollo CSM in 1/72, so there are alternatives. 

Bottom line is that I'd like to have models of the early US manned spacecraft in a constant scale. This offering from Dragon will go a long way toward that goal.


----------



## bert model maker (Feb 19, 2002)

Frets, they have the apollo 7 8,9 10 in 1/72 and the gemini as well. I bought those code 3 model displays of the command module, gemini & mercury all in the correct scale of each other. they are in smithsonian display condition. thehatches come off and the interiors are outstanding with the interior hatch detailed as well. The command module is OUTSTANDING and it is BIG. I wanted one signed by Charlie Duke but they were out of stock so i opted for the unsigned version. I know you would hold the CM and your jaw would drop, they are THAT good.
bert


----------



## flyingfrets (Oct 19, 2001)

I didn't mean to imply that the diecasts were inferior products, they are clearly *very* well done. I just prefer a kit that I have to assemble (even though the *kits* seem to be a little below expectation from Dragon) . I'm just an ol' fashioned kit builder...y'know, one of those odd little quirks that drives the wives crazy...


----------



## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

miniature sun said:


> Given the historical significance of the Apollo programme I'm really surprised that somebody hasn't produced a state of the art LM at 1/48 or even 1/32....this one from Dragon seems a little sloppy given the minute details they cover on their tank range.


Their tanks are equally as sloppy and shoddy. Most of them suffer from a lot of continuing faults. You can make them into nice kits but they are far from perfect.


----------



## flyingfrets (Oct 19, 2001)

Not looking for perfection, just a good starting point. And as you said, their kits can be built up into really nice display pieces (which I intend to do with "Lunar Approach"). Out of the box, in many ways, they're still *miles* ahead of what we've had to work with all these years. The lack of cockpit detail in a 1/72 air/spacecraft *is* puzzling, but it is what it is.


----------



## jgoldader (Mar 26, 2008)

Here's a short review of the Dragon 1/72 "Lunar Landing" kit. I compared the kit to the SIM books on the CSM and LM. I don't have David Weeks' drawings. I have uploaded images to my photobucket.

http://s240.photobucket.com/albums/ff38/jgoldader/Dragon Apollo 11 model OOB/

also at 

http://tinyurl.com/3jdu2vj

LM:
The descent stage is too short, when assembled, by approx. 2 mm (21.5 mm vs. 23.6 mm tall sides, not including the raised area around the descent engine bell). I have done a test-fit of the descent stage, and some puttying will be needed to fair in the top of the descent stage with the bottom, regardless. I will probably add 1-2 mm of styrene strip to the underside of the descent stage top, outboard of the “lip,” to act as a spacer, and do the best I can to match the foil texture using Aves.

There is a scimitar antenna on the “face” of the ascent stage on the STBD side above the rendezvous beacon. That should be removed.

The vents are represented as recessed areas, whereas there should actually be extrusions for the vent caps. Not all the vents are represented.

The EVA handrail running up the face of the ascent stage is not represented.

The interior of the engine has circumferential ribbing.

The RCS plume deflectors are thick, and will have to be sanded down from the backs (there is foil texture on the visible sides). Photoetched deflectors would have been nice.

The remainder of the ascent stage seems okay to me, though I did not check dimensions for the antennae.

The CSM looks good from cursory inspection. The details are indeed Block II. There are recessed panel lines on the SM, and the seams are placed at the panel boundaries, so little/no sanding should be needed. The scimitar antennae are on the SM as it should be, not on the CM as in the Block I representations of old kits. The HGA dishes are photoetched. Beware, the pieces can get stuck together in the package and it might appear your kit is missing dishes.

There is ribbing inside the SPS engine bell, as there was with the LM descent engine bell.



Again, there are opportunities for aftermarket upgrades.

Photoetched LM plume deflectors

Updates for later LM MESA hardware stowage

LM interior

CSM interior and clear exterior

Photoetched docking port details?

SM instrument bay

SM “Apollo 13” damaged bay

Jeff


----------



## flyingfrets (Oct 19, 2001)

Thanks for the pics Jeff. Overall, it looks very nice indeed.

If you don't mind my asking, where did you find "Lunar Landing?" The online retailers I've found who carry the kits all have "Lunar Approach," but "Landing" is listed as "out of stock."

For the extra couple of bucks, I'd rather have the lunar base & moonwalkers.

Hmm...now if I could find a 1/72 LRV!

Anyway, thanks again for the photos. Definitely the deciding factor on this kit being a "must have."

EDIT:
Found & bought one at Buy Hobby. $46 (including shipping).


----------



## miniature sun (May 1, 2005)

I find it really odd that they go to the trouble of including etched parts and then don't include parts that were ideal for the etching process.
Then again this is the same company that produced a 1/6 Kettenkrad with a gearbox but no engine....


----------



## flyingfrets (Oct 19, 2001)

Can't help agreeing with you, but I don't mind doing a little scratchbuilding. Cockpit bulkheads for the CSM and the crew cabin for the LM shouldn't be terribly difficult without losing scale, but control panels, breakers and such would be better served with photoetch. I'd bet ParaGrafix could do a really nice set, but I don't know that Paul would see enough demand to make it worthwhile.

On the other hand, I may just focus on the exteriors. You really wouldn't see much of the cockpits anyway. Foil wrapped wire will replicate the contact probes under the LM footpads well enough. Some of the antenna would probably look better with photoetch, but generally, I think it's a nice enough kit. Just thankful for what we we have and I don't see any point in bitching about what we don't, y'know?


----------



## jgoldader (Mar 26, 2008)

I found both Dragon kits at dragonusaonline.com. I believe John at starshipmodeler.biz carries them, and possibly Steve at culttvman.com as well.

Didn't the old Airfix astronaut set have a little rover in it? Of course, the only way to get the set now is probably to buy the bundle with the Airfix LM in it, sort of defeating the point, eh? 

Jeff


----------



## flyingfrets (Oct 19, 2001)

jgoldader said:


> Didn't the old Airfix astronaut set have a little rover in it? Of course, the only way to get the set now is probably to buy the bundle with the Airfix LM in it, sort of defeating the point, eh?
> 
> Jeff


Thanks for the reminder!!! I have a couple sets of those squirrelled away here somewhere! IIRC, they weren't styrene though, were they? I remember them as being some kind of soft, pliable poly-vinyl stuff. Still, the scale is pretty close (1/76 if memory serves me correctly) and should be easy enough to use as a pattern for a styrene replacement.

Say, by any chance are you in sales at Dragon? You convinced me to buy the kit...now you're gettin' me all stoked up to build the thing...mere coincidence???


----------



## jgoldader (Mar 26, 2008)

flyingfrets said:


> Say, by any chance are you in sales at Dragon? You convinced me to buy the kit...now you're gettin' me all stoked up to build the thing...mere coincidence???


No chance at all, sorry. I'm just a satisfied customer. It's a joy to see some new styrene real space stuff out there. I've ordered Dragon's 1/48 LM, even though I've got a good build of the old Monogram kit. I want to support their efforts, in the hope they put out more space kits!

My Dragon grail kits would be:
-- 1/72 Hubble, which might be possible, since they've got a pre-finished one in their planned lineup
-- 1/48 Block II CSM
-- 1/32 LM, to give me a reason to unwrap my Monogram CSM
-- 1/72 Apollo CSM/LM with the whole bleeping SIVB
-- any "New Space" stuff, especially SpaceX (come on--how awesome would it be if Dragon Models put out the SpaceX Dragon capsule in 1/48???)


Jeff


----------



## flyingfrets (Oct 19, 2001)

FedEx just delivered my copy of the "Lunar Landing" kit & I have to say, the moldings are beautiful...detail is crisp, no flash...best rendering of this subject I've seen yet in styrene kit form.

This would build up into a really nice, convincing display piece right out of the box (though I intend to update the CSM & LM to one of the "J" mission variants).

Jeff, thanks again for the info that convinced me to pull the trigger on this one. Not a disappointment by any stretch!


----------



## bert model maker (Feb 19, 2002)

Frets, How soon until you start on it ?


----------



## flyingfrets (Oct 19, 2001)

Not sure Bert. I'm on disability right now, (herniated disc in my spine) and I have to get all my supplies online since I can't sit long enough to drive anywhere but local.

I'll be ordering the paint & Bare Metal Foils within the next day or two. Oh yeah, and the Rolo candies for the gold foil for the LM :lol:...can't forget *those*! But I can get them local.

Hoping to start in a week or so, especially now that the heatwave has finally broken. The humidity was making airbrushing an execise in futility.

Definitely looking forward to this one though...


----------



## bert model maker (Feb 19, 2002)

How long will you be out of commission ? are you going to have surgery to fix it or did you already have surgery and are healing ? It must be tough trying to sit in front of a model. I wish you all the best Frets.
Bert


----------



## flyingfrets (Oct 19, 2001)

Long story, but I ended up on disability because against the doctor's orders, my employer kept having me do things that were aggrivating the issue. So the doc put me out till we could figure out exactly what the problem is & what to do about it.

The disc is herniated at L4/L5 (wherever *that* is) but it's also blocking the channel for the nerves to my right leg. No response when he whacks me in the knee with the rubber mallet and the pain across the belt line, down through the right thigh, into the knee is pretty intense. I've had my foot fall asleep for no apparent reason...been walking with a cane since April so I don't fall on my ass.

I *will *need surgery before the nerve damage is permanent, but the neurosurgeon isn't available for a consultation till September 15, so I guess I'm going back to work on the first until we decide exactly when to do this.

Who knew getting old would be so much fun? :freak: But thanks for the well wishes.


----------



## bert model maker (Feb 19, 2002)

I tried to pm you but your inbox is full, i also emailed you through HT but not sure that went through either. I hope you start feeling better. be careful of the things you do because you are walking a delicate tightrope right now when it comes to nerves. You do NOT want to get your self to a point of no return.Is it loss of feeling only or is pain involved as well ?


----------



## flyingfrets (Oct 19, 2001)

PAIN! BTW, you have mail too!


----------



## Zombie_61 (Apr 21, 2004)

flyingfrets said:


> The disc is herniated at L4/L5 (wherever *that* is)...I *will *need surgery...


Been there, done that. PM sent.

My apologies for going off-topic ever so slightly. Back on-topic, I was fascinated by the Apollo space program. To watch a sci-fi show like Star Trek which showcased the wonders of space exploration (albeit fictional) in a mostly positive way, then to watch the progress of the real world space program as it happened...it was truly a wonderful time to be alive. And since I started my model building hobby in the late 60s, the Revell kits--Apollo Astronaut on the Moon, the 1/96 scale Apollo Spacecraft--were incredible. Or so I thought at the time. I didn't know they were so inaccurate, and probably wouldn't have cared if I had known.

Needless to say, this thread caught my attention and I will definitely have to get this kit. I'm nowhere near as knowledgeable about the Apollo hardware as many of you are so I probably won't be doing as much accurizing (unless the inaccuracies are _really_ noticeable), but it'll still be fun to build them again! And I'll be viewing this thread with great interest!


----------



## rkoenn (Dec 18, 2007)

I am doing the 1/48 Revell LM and am fairly well along. Here is a thread where I have a couple of pictures of the LM.

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=326523&highlight=lunar

I used the Rolo foil and then used Tamiya clear orange paint to simulate the Kapton. I also have a complete article by a British guy about his build which is really helping me out with mine. I realize yours is 1/72 scale but some of the information in the PDF might be helpful. If anyone would like a copy of the LM build PDF drop me a PM and I will email you a copy.

Bob K.


----------



## jgoldader (Mar 26, 2008)

Bob, are you using a regular brush on the clear orange paint? How are you controlling the thickness and tendency for the paint to collect in low areas?

I've started on my Dragon LM, and am really going back and forth on how to do the gold and amber Kapton coatings. Gold and orange foil; gold foil and orange topcoat; paints over silver foil, etc.

Thanks-
Jeff


----------



## rkoenn (Dec 18, 2007)

jgoldader said:


> Bob, are you using a regular brush on the clear orange paint? How are you controlling the thickness and tendency for the paint to collect in low areas?
> 
> I've started on my Dragon LM, and am really going back and forth on how to do the gold and amber Kapton coatings. Gold and orange foil; gold foil and orange topcoat; paints over silver foil, etc.
> 
> ...


I used the Tamiya clear straight out of the jar. It is actually thicker than some paints so I didn't have much trouble with it pooling. I actually put it on rather thick as the thickness controls how much orange color it shows. And you put it on right over the gold Rolo foil. I thought it looked fairly accurate and was definitely easy to do. I also brushed on Freak Flex black for the black areas. It is a very thin paint so I think I usually applied to coats.

Bob K.


----------

