# Nascar - How to ruin a race before it starts.



## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

Okay, I know they want to avoid what happened at the end of the spring race, but COME ON!!!
They already choked the restricter plates down more, now they won't allow bump drafting in 70% of the track. The whole idea of the COT was to punch a bigger whole in the air to allow more old school type racing with better safety. The COT bumpers were purposely placed at the same height front and rear to allow bump drafting, by Nascars own design. Everyone was looking forward to this race after the spring race, because it's kinda the last glimmer of excitement left in this whole series. You could already feel the disappointment in the air, knowing that the restricter plates were choked off more. The whole air went out of the balloon this morning when they announced the rule change on bump drafting. The spring race wreck was caused by they're stupid yellow line rule. Next they're gonna put turn signals on the cars. The bump draft restriction rule sucks.
I really like how JR put it,"It's kinda like playing touch football".
Let's all hold hands and race safely.

Rich :beatdeadhorse:

I'm gonna go mow my yard.


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## smalltime (Jun 3, 2006)

I can't understand why you all can't have fun with this format.

It's lap 36, 43 cars are running single file. That's a race right?

We all run half thottle pretty much all the time don't we?

This is a joke. I just turned it off and won't turn it back on for the rest of the season. They won't show the grandstands for this race. I think this train has left the station.


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## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)

The stands were half empty. Or maybe half full if you look at like NASCAR.

Between the Johnson runaway and the crappy car again this year, I resigned myself to the fact that I was going to watch Martinsville and Talladega yet and then I was done for the year. Well, I watched Martinsville and fell asleep for about 100 laps of Talladega. I understand I didn't miss anything.

*yawn*


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## twolff (May 11, 2007)

You missed a decent wreck with 5 laps to go. And they couldn't last the 3 laps of a G/W/C restart, but that seems to have become the rule in NASCAR. The last 40 or so laps were commercial free as near as I can recall.


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## smalltime (Jun 3, 2006)

*I watched...........*

Ok
I Lied.
I watched the "race" today.

I watch as the "cars" went around the track. 
I watched as the "cars" went into the pits for a "yellow'
I watched as the cars couldn't pass 
I watched as the cars couldn't "bump" in the corners
I watched as the car bounced thru the infield and nearly killed the driver.
I watched as the driver exited the care center and questioned the rules makers as to why he was there.
I watched as another driver nearly was killed as his car flipped over.

I wondered why I wasted my time.

Never again.


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## clydeomite (May 5, 2004)

My question is how many cars is Brad Keisiowski gonna total out before they decide he's in over his head? This time he took out a team car too bad,soo sad. At least there was a Frod in Victory whatever and The #6 showed good promise with the new ? Ford engine. I hope they don't tape delay Drag racing for Little league badmitten!!!
Clyde-0-Mite


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## LeeRoy98 (Jul 8, 2005)

*Here we go again...*

So... don"t watch. You are not required to watch or discuss any form of racing. 

I thought you weren't going to watch after the last race?

Go mow your lawn.

Gary
AKA LeeRoy98
www.marioncountyraceway.com


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## Jim Norton (Jun 29, 2007)

Plain and simple....Nascar has ruined stock car racing.

Let them now reap what they sew. They are putting on a show not a race. The Ice Capades are now more exciting for the average man than Nascar.

Here in Alabama the race hardly merited a whimper. Watching paint dry has met its match!

Jim Norton
Huntsville, AL


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

Yep, funny about that Newman wreck. I never really thought of it, but,
the roof flaps don't work anymore with that big ol wing on the back.
As much downforce as it produces forward, it produces lift backwards.
Hmmmm....... drawing board anyone?


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## SplitPoster (May 16, 2006)

Talladega used to mean excitement, and HERE, with beautiful weather and the Tide having a bye week.... people didn't flock to the race because it isn't so good anymore. Have to say I flipped through the channel once since it's in my home state, saw two packs single file with the separation being described as race strategy, and didn't watch any further. At least the F1 race was pseudo-interesting, where Button and Webber were fighting it out at the end for 2nd- more contact than allowed with "stock cars" today. 

This thread is about people expecting better and being offered a caricature of good motorsport. As revenue falls with interest and viewership, things will likely change. And I suppose no matter what Nascar does with the rules in the future - be it mandated DOHC 4 cyl fuel injected normally aspirated 2 liter engines or required Chevy straight 6's with side draft Strombergs - whether innovated proprietary chassis' or spec car or ox cart - the select one or two will still say "it's the best racing ever known on the planet." 

For each his own. It's like music vs. musak.


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## tjd241 (Jan 25, 2004)

*ding ding ding !!!!!!*



SplitPoster said:


> This thread is about people expecting better and being offered a caricature of good motorsport.


I can't even see watching ANYTHING on the schedule except maybe when they race at Sonoma Infineon, Montreal Villeneuve, or Watkins Glen. :wave: As far as lawn mowing goes... if they over-regulate and water it down any further they'll be driving "cars" with Briggs & Stratton power plants :lol:. nd


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## Pete McKay (Dec 20, 2006)

People who go to Ox cart races just want to see an Ox hit the wall and catch fire. 

Move all the bleachers and grandstands back another 100 yards and lose the restrictor plates. You can see the race better that far away and if someone gets in the fence they have a long way to go before they get to the folks in the stands. 

Oh yeah, and while were at it anything that comes off between the track and the stands is up for grabs, sheet metal, tires, other assorted pieces.

I have to leave now, my Lithium prescription is ready at Walgreens.


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## DesertSlot (May 8, 2009)

Pete McKay said:


> People who go to Ox cart races just want to see an Ox hit the wall and catch fire.
> 
> Move all the bleachers and grandstands back another 100 yards and lose the restrictor plates. You can see the race better that far away and if someone gets in the fence they have a long way to go before they get to the folks in the stands.
> 
> ...


1 vote for best post on this thread.:hat:


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## LeeRoy98 (Jul 8, 2005)

SplitPoster said:


> This thread is about people expecting better and being offered a caricature of good motorsport.


I know... I have heard it before. 
"Back in the day"... which just proves our memories aren't very good. Cale Yarborough was a 3 time repeat champion "back in the day" and the same arguement was heard then. NASCAR changed from the full sized to the intermediate bodies "back in the day" and the sport wasn't going to last another 5 years.
Modern technology has surpassed the capabilities of NASCAR to create great racing at the superspeedways. There is no way to turn back the technology, but blaming NASCAR for slowing the cars down to keep them out of the grandstands is ridiculous. 
Attendance? The economy has kept me from attending any NASCAR events this year. Even my trips to the local short track are a lot fewer. I didn't make the trek to St. Louis today for the slot car swap meet. Auto racing is not the only sport to feel the impact.
I remember Cale's championships and the naysayers of the day. I will offer you the same advice. You are watching history in the making... enjoy it.

Perhaps we should go back to the car and tire design of the 60's and make you happy. Of course the multitude of drivers killed would be worth your enjoyment... no thanks. I'll watch the NASCAR of today. And I repeat... if you don't like it... don't watch.

Gary
AKA LeeRoy98
www.marioncountyraceway.com


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## SplitPoster (May 16, 2006)

LeeRoy98 said:


> I know... I have heard it before.
> "Back in the day"... which just proves our memories aren't very good. Cale Yarborough was a 3 time repeat champion "back in the day" and the same arguement was heard then. NASCAR changed from the full sized to the intermediate bodies "back in the day" and the sport wasn't going to last another 5 years.
> Modern technology has surpassed the capabilities of NASCAR to create great racing at the superspeedways. There is no way to turn back the technology, but blaming NASCAR for slowing the cars down to keep them out of the grandstands is ridiculous.
> Attendance? The economy has kept me from attending any NASCAR events this year. Even my trips to the local short track are a lot fewer. I didn't make the trek to St. Louis today for the slot car swap meet. Auto racing is not the only sport to feel the impact.
> ...


Pitiful, really pitiful = the arguement that going to a more realistic and liberal set of rules is automatically going back in time and is more dangerous. The whole CoT is regulated, not just the important safety aspects. 

To make things more dangerous, you would need to eliminate the HANS device, the roll structure specs, the 6 point harness systems, the racing seats, the closed cell padding, SFI spec ballistic fuel bladders in alloy cans, aircraft/mil spec fuel plumbing, the SFI specs for suits, helmets, window nets and everything else, onboard fire systems, not to mention the energy absorbing barriers on the track..... no one advocates the reversal of safety advances, and as far as I can tell those all are universal, not limited to the CoT, and they certainly don't have anything to do with restrictor plates. As for the problem Rich pointed out, don't you think that putting an electronic actuator on the rear wing to lower the trailing edge to provide downforce when airflow is reversed (ie the car is going backwards) would be a good safety idea? I do.

Look at F1, where the cars corner with very high g forces and are as fast as ever, yet incidence of serious injury and fatality is a tiny fraction of where it was "in the day." 

BTW, SEC college football tickets HERE are much more expensive than Nascar tickets, there are many more games than races, and the games are completely sold out. Same fan base, same economy - what gives? That's right, it's history being made, one way or another. :thumbsup:


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## Jim Norton (Jun 29, 2007)

The stands were not HALF EMPTY "back in the day!"

Jim Norton
Huntsville, AL


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## SplitPoster (May 16, 2006)

Jim, you're only from Alabama like me, and probably have only been to Talladega a few times, like me. We must not know enough to recognize good racing and form a reasonable opinion. One of the guys I have gone to Talladega and other races with in the past didn't go to Talladega this year either, but we are going to see the IndyCars at Barber Motorsports Park next April with 2 other equally naive people. Barber Motorsports Park, that's at the Leeds exit on I-20, 25 miles west of Talladega. 20 miles or so east of Hueytown, home of the Alabama gang.

Funny, somewhere around 30,000 people showed up to watch IRL spec cars PRACTICE on a Monday this year, and they went ahead and scheduled a race here for all of us uneducated race fans.


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## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)

Pete McKay said:


> Move all the bleachers and grandstands back another 100 yards and lose the restrictor plates . . .


I have been saying just this thing for over 20 years now, except I would say move the stands back 50 feet and make the bottom rows start at 20 feet above the deck. Or move the stands to the infield.

Dale Earnhardt once said anyone who doesn't want to run 220 mph can lift his foot. I agree.


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

I thought the *F1* race today was pretty good, but that might have had a lot to do with the track itself. I'm impressed. The COT. For all that's been said about the COT, my first post has no complaints about it at all. In fact, I thought the spring race at Talladega was interesting, and not just because of the wreck at the end. The COT has brought back a very important part of Nascar racing heritage, the BUMP. Whether at Talladega, Charlotte, or Martinsville, it has brought back excitement to some rather dull racing. Remember "Pops" Turner? Do you think earlier this year, Hamlin may have felt a victim of "Pops" when he lost the race to Jimmy Johnson in the same way so many lost to Turner back in the day? Whether its a 64 Galaxie, or todays COT, for that one lap, JJ and Hamlin captured the excitement of old school racing. By the 70s, bump drafting on super speedways had evolved into an art, partly for the simple fact that super speedways had been around long enough for people to master it. Of course, the masters with good equipment schooled the field in the early 70s. It was the very reason they were able to get laps up on the field in many cases. But by the late 70s, everyone was learning the trade. By the 80s, with the downsized and less aerodynamic cars, mastering the bump draft was a requirement just to stay in the race. The complaints about the instability of the cars sound like what we here today. Ford enters Nascar again. The second round of the aero war begins. By the 90s, the cars were losing their bumpers in favor of an air dam. Before the COTs it had gotten absolutely ridiculous. The cars looked more like a stubby version of John Forces funny car, and just as fragile. The "Bump" was long gone, due to the cars jacked up rear end, and on the ground front end, that angled sharply down in front of the front wheels like a Corvette. Harry Gant stated, "They wouldn't need a COT if they would just build a 'stock' car" But the bumping is back, and I was happier about it, until the announcement at the drivers meeting this morning. It just took a big strategy completely out of the race. Nascar didn't want 2 or 4 cars hooking up and leaving the pack behind on a long green flag run, but I did. If that kind of domination was allowed, Jimmy J wouldn't have hid at the back of the field all day. This is a champion? This is why I don't care if 35 cars finish on the lead lap every race. "_*The Numbers* show todays races are more competitive than ever_." No, the numbers show the races are better _funded_ than ever. When did they start keeping 'Lead Lap Finish' stats? I have never heard of this as something to brag about, and get marketed about, until recently. Go try to pat ol Curtis Turner on the back and tell him, "Well, at least you finished on the lead lap".
The technology is better, much better. They used to run 500 miles to prove the make of the car. To prove the manufacturer had the better technology to win the race. Back in the day, almost half the field didn't finish the big races. (So, all those lead lap figures are skewed) The cars are so durable now, so refined, the only way to break a motor is to have a defective part of some kind. (Hamlin, Oh what a feeling!) With all this well funded technology, why don't we turn the drivers loose and let them race. That's all this thread is about. I know there is good drivers out there, let em race!
Nascars getting to be like the UN.

Take it from SplitPost and Jim N. 
They live there and probably know more about the ins and outs of Talladega than anyone else on this board.
Jim, I think you have the quote of the thread.... The stands weren't half full back in the day!

Rich - Winston Cup fan


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## BRS Hobbies (Feb 16, 2006)

The biggest problem that I see with Daytona and Talladega is that the current cars are out performing the track. This along with the restrictor plates, allows the drivers to run wide open all the way around the track, which leads to almost the whole field bunched together in a pack, bump drafting to try to make a pass on another driver (since everyone is pretty much going the same speed). The racing on the track used to be awesome with 6 to 12 lead lap cars making slingshot passes while trying to negotiate cars one or more laps down. The Daytona 500 is just a name now. The racing does not live up to the name like it use to. I enjoy watching NASCAR races but feel strongly that NASCAR should make some changes at the restrictor plate tracks. Here is what I think they should do - 

1) Go to a skinnier, harder compound tire which will offer less grip and will force the drivers to let off the gas in the corners. 

2) Remove the restrictor plates, the cars won't be going as fast since they can't run wide open around the track with the skinnier tires so the racing will be safer without the need of the restrictor plates.

Another option would be to lower the banking of the track. 

The whole idea is to create some separation of the field which will lead to better racing as seen at the other tracks on the NASCAR circuit.

Best regards,
Brian


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

I've often heard it said that there's no reason to watch a basketball game until the last two minutes. I'm feeling that way about NASCAR now. There's really no reason to watch an entire race when the field keeps getting bunched up and reset for multiple restarts right at the end. 

I didn't start watching NASCAR until 2001, so I can't make a comparision to the good old days. I do however know what I like and don't like about NASCAR, and racing in general.

There needs to be a reason to watch, and drive, an entire race. Right now, I have no idea why you'd need to build a good lead when you know the next yellow flag is going to wipe it all out. Build a lead and the next thing you know, the guy you just put far behind you in the rear view mirror is restating right next to you.

There must be an incentive to building leads during the race that you are not going to lose because of a caution flag.

I'd make the following changes:

- No pit stops during a yellow flag.

- When lining up for a restart, place the cars in the order they were in at the time of the caution. If the leader had put 12 lapped cars between him and the second place car, then restart the race with those 12 cars still between them. No reason to penalize guys for running hard and putting distance (and cars) between themselves and any trailing cars. This would make running hard during the race pay off.

- Change the point system. Why do you get 5 points for leading a lap, and the same 5 points for leading the MOST laps? Isn't one of these just a little harder to achieve than the other?

- With computerized scoring, it's now easy to award points for each lap. Maybe you give out points for your position on each lap. That would make each lap count for something. No more "hanging in the back" at tracks like Talladega. You'd have to race every lap to get the most points.

- Award the same number of points to everyone 30th (or so) and back. This eliminates guys coming back on the track with a busted up car just to move up a spot or two.

Joe


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

You can be king of NASCAR on Sunday afternoon.

1. Turn off the TV.
2. Call your buddies.
3. Wipe down the slot car track.
4. Fire up the power supply.
5. Reboot the PC and launch TrackMate
6. Break out your favorite NASCARs.
7. Drive 'em like you stole 'em.

COTs you're thing? Life-Like is your friend.
Don't like COTs? Tycos, vintage A/FX, and vintage LLS will do.
Like restrictor plates? XTs and magnatractions.
Like really teeny tiny restrictor plates? TJets will fit the bill.


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## harleyman (Apr 7, 2009)

LeeRoy98 said:


> I know... I have heard it before.
> "Back in the day"... which just proves our memories aren't very good. Cale Yarborough was a 3 time repeat champion "back in the day" and the same arguement was heard then. NASCAR changed from the full sized to the intermediate bodies "back in the day" and the sport wasn't going to last another 5 years.
> Modern technology has surpassed the capabilities of NASCAR to create great racing at the superspeedways. There is no way to turn back the technology, but blaming NASCAR for slowing the cars down to keep them out of the grandstands is ridiculous.
> Attendance? The economy has kept me from attending any NASCAR events this year. Even my trips to the local short track are a lot fewer. I didn't make the trek to St. Louis today for the slot car swap meet. Auto racing is not the only sport to feel the impact.
> ...


Well said LeeRoy. I get tired of these whiners and criers on all the message boards. They claim "they don't watch" but after a race they fill up the messages boards like there was no tomorrow. All of them are upset because they want to see a Talladega with crash after crash after crash. Which is a shame. Fans like that are just morons. Someone on here said that everyone was excited for the race after the spring race. Why???? Cause there was a big crash??? STUPID, STUPID, STUPID. And no one thinks about the fact that these guys have 500 miles to race, why would they want to risk crashing & burning on lap 20. And as for the stands half empty. Yep, the attendance is way down but if you've ever been to one of those "half empty" races that all the whiners claim is the end, well there are still a buttload of people there. They still get more than any other sport and that's with attendance way down. So now they don't get 200 thousand, they only pull 110 thousand, still pretty high. LeeRoy, the whiners are afraid to move forward in time and realize that technology changes. They still want the fastback Monte Carlo, open face helmets, and racing at North Wilkesboro. Things change people, if you were all such great geniuses and had the answer for Nascar, well, you'd be in charge instead of on here whinning like little girls. Like LeeRoy said, if you don't like it don't watch. But of course, then you'd have to start knocking the NFL. Well, back in the day we had leather helmets with no facemasks.. Oh god, here they go again :wave:


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## slotcarman12078 (Oct 3, 2008)

OK. I'm a whiner.  And a moron too I guess. :freak: (These are improvements from what I'm usually called, so hooray!!! I'm moving up in the world!!) :thumbsup: Other than bits and pieces of this race or that I haven't watched a race since the early 70's. As the cars got uglier, the reasons to watch became fewer. Now I don't even bother at all, other than a peek at the highlights to see who wrecked this week. Obviously, there are a bunch of us morons watching simply for the crashes, because they have to instant replay them 20 times, from 8 different points of view, including in car from 3 different driver's cars. Once the cars lost their character, and became aero blobs with stickers on them to help you distinguish one blob from another, there simply was no reason to watch. I've got better things to waste my time with.. :tongue:


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## A/FX Nut (May 28, 2004)

LeeRoy98 said:


> I know... I have heard it before.
> "Back in the day"... which just proves our memories aren't very good. Cale Yarborough was a 3 time repeat champion "back in the day" and the same arguement was heard then. NASCAR changed from the full sized to the intermediate bodies "back in the day" and the sport wasn't going to last another 5 years.
> Modern technology has surpassed the capabilities of NASCAR to create great racing at the superspeedways. There is no way to turn back the technology, but blaming NASCAR for slowing the cars down to keep them out of the grandstands is ridiculous.
> Gary
> ...


Bobby Allison's crash at Talladega in 1987 was the reason restrictor plates were mandated to slow those cars down and to prevent them from going into the stands. 




NTxSlotCars said:


> Yep, funny about that Newman wreck. I never really thought of it, but,
> the roof flaps don't work anymore with that big ol wing on the back.
> As much downforce as it produces forward, it produces lift backwards.
> Hmmmm....... drawing board anyone?



That wing needs to come off and replaced with a spoiler. Two cars flipped into the air by that wing. Carl's in the spring and Newman's this past week. 
I don't like seeing that. Someone is going to get killed, and I don't want to see that.




AfxToo said:


> You can be king of NASCAR on Sunday afternoon.
> 
> 1. Turn off the TV.
> 2. Call your buddies.
> ...



Had one this past Sunday. We had the Talladega race on TV. Checked in on it between heats and classes. But 98% of the attention was on the Tomy 4' X 16' Oval. 5 classes ran. Two of the classes came down to who had more segments because two racers had ran the same number of laps.

I still like to watch NASCAR, but I've been watching other forms of racing lately. The Rolex and LeMans series, F1, and NHRA Drag Racing is cool.
Plus Top Gear on BBC America is a hoot.

Randy.


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## tjd241 (Jan 25, 2004)

*Gee... How do you really feel?*



harleyman said:


> Well said LeeRoy. Snip!!! (mercifully)


Actually I'm curious... The course you took??... The one on "Winning Friends and Influencing People".... What did that set you back anyhow? Just wondering because... It really isn't working for you. nd


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## Rolo9th (Apr 4, 2008)

I started watching Nascar big-time in the early 1980's, and was really into it for a good 12-15 years. Being a history buff, and a muscle car enthusiast to boot, I did a lot of research and studying of stock car racing in the 1960's and 1970's.

About 15 years ago or so, my interest in Nascar began to wane, as the guys I considered the "old guard" had all pretty much retired (Petty, Yarborough, Pearson, Baker, Parsons, etc.) and the guys I grew up watching (Rudd, Shepard, Allison, Elliot, Waltrip, Richmond, Bonnet, Kulwicki, etc.) were either dead or had their best days behind them. I was not all that thrilled with the new direction of Nascar, as the new crop of drivers were not a new generation of good 'ole boys, but rather polished, corporate mouthpieces. (Not taking away the talent some of them have, but they were just a different breed, so less colorful and seemingly so much more pampered and airbrushed, if you know what I mean). Nascar expanded into non-traditional areas (Kansas, Las Vegas) in the name of progress, but I think in the process, they lost their way a bit. To me, Nascar is primarily a Southern sport, and I don't think its that way anymore.

While I understand they grew the sport, I really feel it lost a LOT of what made it appealing for me. I just have about 0% interest in Nascar anymore, to me it is a shell of what it used to be. I feel like they sold the soul of the hobby out to become popular. 

I fully understand, time marches on, technology improves, and nothing stays the same. However, to me, Nascar just is no where as near as exciting as I remember it in the 1980's and early 90's. I seem to recall a lot more passing, a lot more variables, just a much better product overall. Today, it seems to sterile, so sanitized, so darn corporate, and just very bland.

So, Nascar has lost me as a fan, as like I said, my interest began to wane around the mid 1990's or so, eroding a bit each year to where I am for the last few, occasionally checking into a race, looking at the standings every now and again, just keeping tabs on things. I can not tell you the last Nascar race I watched in its entirety.


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

Bird nests in the carb...and spuds in the tail pipe.

...whats next turn signals?


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## Pomfish (Oct 25, 2003)

harleyman said:


> Well said LeeRoy. I get tired of these whiners and criers on all the message boards. They claim "they don't watch" but after a race they fill up the messages boards like there was no tomorrow. All of them are upset because they want to see a Talladega with crash after crash after crash. Which is a shame. Fans like that are just morons. Someone on here said that everyone was excited for the race after the spring race. Why???? Cause there was a big crash??? STUPID, STUPID, STUPID. And no one thinks about the fact that these guys have 500 miles to race, why would they want to risk crashing & burning on lap 20. And as for the stands half empty. Yep, the attendance is way down but if you've ever been to one of those "half empty" races that all the whiners claim is the end, well there are still a buttload of people there. They still get more than any other sport and that's with attendance way down. So now they don't get 200 thousand, they only pull 110 thousand, still pretty high. LeeRoy, the whiners are afraid to move forward in time and realize that technology changes. They still want the fastback Monte Carlo, open face helmets, and racing at North Wilkesboro. Things change people, if you were all such great geniuses and had the answer for Nascar, well, you'd be in charge instead of on here whinning like little girls. Like LeeRoy said, if you don't like it don't watch. But of course, then you'd have to start knocking the NFL. Well, back in the day we had leather helmets with no facemasks.. Oh god, here they go again :wave:


Alright, I'll bite.

Yes I still want racing at North Wilkesboro.
I could care less what helmet they wear, their choice not mine.
Don't care if it's a Monte Carlo, Lumina, Thunderbird, Gran Prix, Taurus or even a Celica, JUST ACTUALLY MAKE IT LOOK LIKE THAT FREAKIN CAR!

Next, technology, totally agree, you can not stand in the way of it.
Which is why it is probably time for electronic fuel injection.

Now, about those 110,000 fans showing up at each track...........?

Thanks,
Keith


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## smalltime (Jun 3, 2006)

harleyman said:


> Well said LeeRoy. I get tired of these whiners and criers on all the message boards. They claim "they don't watch" but after a race they fill up the messages boards like there was no tomorrow. All of them are upset because they want to see a Talladega with crash after crash after crash. Which is a shame. Fans like that are just morons. Someone on here said that everyone was excited for the race after the spring race. Why???? Cause there was a big crash??? STUPID, STUPID, STUPID. And no one thinks about the fact that these guys have 500 miles to race, why would they want to risk crashing & burning on lap 20. And as for the stands half empty. Yep, the attendance is way down but if you've ever been to one of those "half empty" races that all the whiners claim is the end, well there are still a buttload of people there. They still get more than any other sport and that's with attendance way down. So now they don't get 200 thousand, they only pull 110 thousand, still pretty high. LeeRoy, the whiners are afraid to move forward in time and realize that technology changes. They still want the fastback Monte Carlo, open face helmets, and racing at North Wilkesboro. Things change people, if you were all such great geniuses and had the answer for Nascar, well, you'd be in charge instead of on here whinning like little girls. Like LeeRoy said, if you don't like it don't watch. But of course, then you'd have to start knocking the NFL. Well, back in the day we had leather helmets with no facemasks.. Oh god, here they go again :wave:



Wow!
Where to begin.........
#1 I could care less what model of car is driven. As long as it's a car, not a blob.
#2 I think the safety measures have saved this sport from Govt. intervention more than once. (See LeMans '59) 
#3 I LIKE SHORT TRACK RACING.
#4 I NEVER WANT TO SEE A WRECK. For you to say otherwise is vapid.
#5 This is racing. It is supposed to be an equal part man/machine. When you take away part of that equasion with ill thought rules, you get fans that bitch.
#6 Yes, I think that NHL players should have the choice of wearing a helmet or not. I'm old school in that regard. I also don't think I should'nt be required to wear a seat belt, as I'm being passed by a guy on a motorcycle with no helmet, and right behind him is a busload of schoolkids whose driver wears a belt, but none of the kids do.

Let 'em race.
Make being a lap down mean something.
Move the grandstands to the infield and let 'em go!


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## shocker36 (Jul 5, 2008)

Plain and simple rubn is racing... I mean cause for black flag and DQ. What a bunch of tools they have become


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## sbrady#0 (Nov 18, 2007)

first off they WILL never get rid of the banking at the big tracks to fix nascar 

1. go back to stock cars( then what we have on the street will look better too) 
2. let the teams pick the car they run ( the charger does come all wheel drive and V8) 
3. lose the top 35 rule ( if your not fast you should not be in the race)


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## Montoya1 (May 14, 2004)

As we saw on Sunday motorsport seems to be determined to lose a part of itself in pursuit of something most fans don't want.

F1, WRC, Nascar, IRL - all pale shadows of what they could be.


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## Jim Norton (Jun 29, 2007)

*Tony Stewart?*

Was it not Tony Stewart, this past Sunday, that radioed his crew chief to ask him how best to make the time pass while he was out there driving around. Maybe even asked the crew chief to check to see if he was awake occasionally. That is how bad its got.

Mark Martin when interviewed could not bring himself to even answer any questions....he appeared disgusted with the whole thing.

Daytona 2010 will be interesting. I doubt they will fill the stands and I bet sponsors will "jump ship" in plenty between the end of this season and the start of the next.

Jim Norton
Huntsville, AL


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## LeeRoy98 (Jul 8, 2005)

Jim Norton said:


> The stands were not HALF EMPTY "back in the day!"
> 
> Jim Norton
> Huntsville, AL


The stands were much less than half the capacity. The boom of the last 10 years triggered the greed of the track owners to over build the seating capacity. Now with the tough economy the tickets are harder to sell.
It is real easy to blame NASCAR for all the changes in racing. It is also real easy to remember things as much better "back in the day". 

Gary
AKA LeeRoy98
www.marioncountyraceway.com


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## LeeRoy98 (Jul 8, 2005)

AfxToo said:


> You can be king of NASCAR on Sunday afternoon.
> 
> 1. Turn off the TV.
> 2. Call your buddies.
> ...


Brilliant!!!

I take back my statement that if you don't' like it then stop watching.

If you don't like it... go race slot cars!

Gary
AKA LeeRoy98
www.marioncountyraceway.com


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## LeeRoy98 (Jul 8, 2005)

SplitPoster said:


> Jim, you're only from Alabama like me, and probably have only been to Talladega a few times, like me. We must not know enough to recognize good racing and form a reasonable opinion. One of the guys I have gone to Talladega and other races with in the past didn't go to Talladega this year either, but we are going to see the IndyCars at Barber Motorsports Park next April with 2 other equally naive people. Barber Motorsports Park, that's at the Leeds exit on I-20, 25 miles west of Talladega. 20 miles or so east of Hueytown, home of the Alabama gang.
> 
> Funny, somewhere around 30,000 people showed up to watch IRL spec cars PRACTICE on a Monday this year, and they went ahead and scheduled a race here for all of us uneducated race fans.


I live close to Indianapolis and have attended races there for more than 30 years. That does not make me any more of an expert on the racing at Indy than you or anyone else...

BTW, seen the TV and attendance numbers for IRL over the past few years?

Gary
AKA LeeRoy98
www.marioncountyraceway.com


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## LeeRoy98 (Jul 8, 2005)

*Stepping back... and commenting.*

I have been offline for a week and just got the opportunity to reply. But I would like to make one thing clear...
I do respect others opinions. I disagree with many but I also believe it is a disagreement regarding the reasons as to the woes of racing more than the fact that the woes exist.
NASCAR and many other forms of racing are having to face the issues of technology exceeding the capabilities of the infrastructure. I don't have the answers, but I do disagree with people blaming the sanctioning bodies. 
IRL made some spectacular stupid decisions and are paying the price. I don't think they will ever return to their former grandeur. 
NASCAR boomed far beyond the capabilities of the sanctioning body. Now the individual tracks are paying the price of greed. I feel that NASCAR has tried to do what is best for the sport. There is no returning to the "good old days", there never was.
Racing has evolved... and will continue to evolve. Regardless of what we prefer, the majority dollars will prevale. That is why NASCAR stopped racing on dirt in the 60's. I wished they hadn't, but the reality was such that they had to evolve.
Racing fans in general will evolve as the racing evolves. Some of won't and will fall to the side. It is the natural evolution of any process... and the sad part is that it probably is the natural evolution of slot cars. Unfortunately, I can't see any future for slot cars. I hope I am wrong.

So I appreciate everyone's feedback and will continue to dispute some of the points. But please understand that I still consider you all my friends.

Gary
AKA LeeRoy98
www.marioncountyraceway.com


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## bumpercar88 (Feb 6, 2005)

You wanna see some racing? Check out F1s in the rain!


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## Jim Norton (Jun 29, 2007)

*1981 Nascar*

My Dad and I just watched the 1981 Daytona 500 on tape. If today's fans could see what racing was back then today's stands would be more emptier!

Back then, it was very exciting to watch them go lap after lap because any minute you know somebody in the lead pack will make a move! And sure enough, coming into the third turn you know that second place car is positioning himself for that pass.....whether it be this lap or the next. Somehow you know that those in the lead pack are working ever second to get up front.

Bobby Allison and Neil Bonnet put on one heck of a race. It was great to see Bonnets "boxy" shaped Wood Brothers T-Bird against Allison's streamlined Pontiac. 

Today's equal is not even close to being as exciting as it was then. Even though this race is 28 years old and I have seen it before I was on the edge of my seat lap after lap. If you get a chance to see an old race you will see that the whole thing is staggeringly different from today.

Jim Norton
Huntsville, AL


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## bobhch (Apr 22, 2007)

*Dreaming that they will bring back 70s cars to race in todays NASCAR...*

Jim Norton,

I agree with everything you just said....bring back the 70s Nascar races.

Can remember watching the NASCAR races and the IROC races as well. Those were the days! 

Bob...I want my MTV...zilla


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## LeeRoy98 (Jul 8, 2005)

*1981 Daytona*

I just watched the 81 Daytona race. I was curious to see if my memories were accurate or nostalgic. What I saw was a race where Richard Petty led the last 30+ laps with no contender in sight. He then pitted and took fuel only and won by 3.5 seconds over the second place car.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't see this as better racing. Great racing for it's day, but a lot has changed.
BTW, the recorded attendance for that race was 130,000. The 2009 Daytona 500 recorded attendance was 180,000. Looks like the fans are staying away in droves.
Sorry Jim, I loved the old days of NASCAR also. But I don't blame the sanctioning body because the teams learned about aerodynamics. I don't consider 5 cars finishing on the lead lap better racing. NASCAR is different today because the technologies of today are vastly different. I just don't rely on my nostalgia to guide my appreciation of todays racing. I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

Gary
AKA LeeRoy98
www.marioncountyraceway.com


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## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)

If there were still some short tracks like North Wilkesboro, Nashville Fairgrounds, the old Richmond half-mile, etc. and fewer of Kansas, California, Homestead, Las Vegas that would make today's racing better. Aero doesn't mean squat at the little tracks and it goes back to the drivers and chassis set-up, not the best motor and slickest cheater body.

Bristol and in particular Martinsville is what NASCAR should be played on -- shorter tracks with stands built high - you can still pack them in without all the cookie-cutter look-alike track stuff.

As for Talladega and Big D - Just move the stands to the infield, open up the plates and let the pack spread out. Or, hey, go to fuel injected 300 c.i. motors on the big tracks and cut back a couple hundred horsepower.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

I agree with both LeeRoy98 and Cordoba. Things always look better through time tempered reflection. And yes, more realistic looking cars and more short track fender banging racing would be nice. Shorter races too.

NASCAR is and will continue to be a product of the times and do what they have to do to keep the show going and pulling down big numbers. The long term trend of the numbers don't lie. Today's NASCAR is a slightly different product than what it was 30 years ago. There's much more emphasis on driver celebrity and the cars and technology are nearly a non factor. I certainly have no preference and see no benefit or detriment to one brand winning over another. If you're a fan of the driver who is winning, you probably think NASCAR rocks. 

As with any form of racing, the people who are getting the most of it are the drivers. The drivers are getting 1000X more excitement from it than any spectator. Most of the racers would be driving just as hard if they were only making regular middle class salaries. They are the ones having all the fun. The fact that someone would pay to watch them having the time of their life is pure gravy for them, the racers. 

It's all about participation man. I'd rather race a go kart around the cul de sac than watch someone else racing an Indy Car at Indianapolis. Even if the go kart has a governor on the Tecumseh 6 HP motor - damn plate racing. Same goes for slot car racing. Whenever you get to be the guy behind the wheel, no matter how big or small the scale, it's full-on fun and it's Real Racing. You can put the mass media auto race on the TV in the background, but it will always pale in comparison to Real Racing. Watching TV racing should pique your interest and make you want to do some serious hands-on racing yourself. Keeping it real means you are really doing it, not just watching it. 

Don't like what you're watching? Turn if off.


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

I guess the tracks just need to be wider. 
That way, when 35 cars finish on the lead lap, they can all be side-by-side. 
Yeah man, that's competition.

Let's really crunch the numbers....
What was the population of the US in 1981 compared to today?

What percent of the population travelled in 1981 compared to today?

How many dollars did Nascar spend on marketing in 1980 compared to 2008?

How many dollars did Nascar spend on marketing from 1970 to 1980?
How many dollars did Nascar spend on marketing from 1998 to 2008?

How many corporate advertising dollars supported Nascar and its teams in 1981?
How many corporate advertising dollars supported Nascar and its teams in 2008?

How much money did the fans spend on Nascar in 1981, compared to 2008?

I think you'll see that even if you use the Gross National Product and Average Earned Income for 1981 and 2009 as a gauge, you will find that much more money is pumped in to Nascar today than ever. Now, we all love Nascar, that's why we even care to talk about it, but, LR98, you've been talking about yesteryear as if all these numbers are the same, and they're not. 
The whole basis for today's 'talent' is that they are far better funded than the top teams of yesteryear. Back then, teams _raced_ for the prize money. Now? I guess Jim said it best in another thread. "Why would a multi-millionaire want to race on the edge?" The incentive has gone upside down. It's not just Nascar's problem. Why would a star player making 7 mil a year want to listen to a coach making 1.2 mil a year? It's all over the place and I've even seen star players get coaches fired over disagreements.
The point is, it just doesn't take a lot of talent to play follow the leader, and I'm not buying it as better competition just because the car at the back of the field is closer funded to the the lead car than is was back in the day. Jimmy Johnson and his team are very talented. Perhaps they have no equal these days, but they haven't led the points going into any of the Chases they've won. With Rousch having problems, there's just NO competition for JJ. It's all big money and big teams. It really is a whole different ball game now, and we miss the way it was. 
And this is the way it was.... Richard Petty was back in the pack, and waited until after Allison and the front pack had pitted before he did. The lead pack had pitted on green (back when there wasn't a speed limit for green flag stops), and got tires and fuel. (This was the first year of the downsized cars that were aerodynamically unstable compared to the cars the year before. So, Goodyear brought a harder compound, just to be safe, to avoid something like what happened at Talladega not too many years before.) With that, Petty came in and got fuel only, 1 can, a 6 second stop. This put him in the lead when he came back out on the track. But he was running alone, and what was the lead pack, was catching him. It is likened to a Hail Mary pass to go up by one touchdown in mid 4th quarter. The stronger team has the ball, and is driving downfield to tie it up. The pack catching Petty was inevitable, but would they have enough time? They never scored, Petty held on and won, running out of gas coming down to the finish, for his 7th Daytona win. It's a great story that can actually be written about. Sounds way better than "Matt Kenseth wins under caution because the field was bunched up and couldn't keep from crashing the last ten laps." He couldn't even race to the caution. Some of Nascars most famous finishes were races to the caution flag. They took that away too.

Rich
Winston Cup fan.


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## LeeRoy98 (Jul 8, 2005)

*Numbers*

Rich,
My perception of your point when you started this thread was to blame NASCAR for where we are today. Would you prefer the cars race back to the line under caution?? Would you prefer a driver be killed while the cars race back to the line?? I would agree that I don't like the rule, but I don't have an option that I consider to be acceptable.
I don't like the restrictor plates, but I don't see a viable alternative. 
I don't like the aero issues, but I don't see a viable method to resolve them. The teams have gotten smarter, I see no way to dumb them down.
The V-6 was tried in NASCAR, the fans disapproved.

The numbers don't lie. 130,000 in 1981 vs. 180,000 in 2009. That doesn't translate to nobody going to the races no matter how you attempt to justify the numbers. 

My point is that I like what NASCAR has been able to produce given the evolution of the sport. I like the fact they are willing to try to improve the sport with the COT, double file restarts, gas or tire pitting (granted that didn't work), and the Chase. If you find the racing to be unacceptable... don't watch. I will continue to watch until I am no longer interested. That hasn't happened.

Gary
AKA LeeRoy98
www.marioncountyraceway.com


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

Yes, the numbers don't lie, but it's nice to consider _all_ the numbers. There's just so many factors that are forgotten. I like the COT, safer barriers, and the double file restart. I don't like the Chase format, the wing, and the way Nascar has been handcuffing the competition at the super speedways. 
Of course, I had to watch Texas, because it's here. I thought the race was kind of exciting and old school. There was changes for the lead, and racing back in the pack. Only 6 cars finished on the lead lap. Still, I had a bad day with my fantasy league.
Yes, we agree to disagree, but, I don't like you repeatedly implying that I would like to see someone get killed just because I like an older rule. When has anyone ever been killed racing back to the line for a caution? You would have to go back to the 50s to find the answer, and I've never mentioned going back that far. That's just poor sportsmanship for you to say that I want to see someone get killed, so take that back.
These days, the truck series is my favorite racing. The last few years points battles have been epic. Ron Hornaday has this year all but locked up, and the racing has still been great. I would like to see more of that style racing in Cup. It's more aggressive, as it should be.
Maybe slot cars are doomed. I don't see any kids getting into them around here, no matter how hard we try. Maybe technology will help us further the cause.

Rich
Winston Cup fan, still.


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## LeeRoy98 (Jul 8, 2005)

Not poor sportsmanship, simple hard fact. If you are against a rule put in place for the safety of the drivers, then you are against the safety of the drivers unless you offer a better alternative. I heard no alternative offered, just we should go back. I disagree with you and offer no apology for that disagreement.


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## Jim Norton (Jun 29, 2007)

Rich:

Amen.

Jim Norton
Huntsville, AL


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## LeeRoy98 (Jul 8, 2005)

*I'm done...*

Watch or don't watch for whatever your reasons...

I will watch or not watch for my reasons...

I'm done discussing them.

Gary
AKA LeeRoy98
www.marioncountyraceway.com


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

As I said before, I think two simple rule changes would make the racing better and make the entire race matter;

1) No pit stops during a yellow flag

2) On a restart, cars are lined up as they were on the track when the caution came out. If there were 6 cars between the leader and the second place car when the caution came out, then that's how they restart.

These two changes would cause you to have to race the whole time. No pit stops during the yellow flag would mean no loss of position because of a caution. If you had put 6 cars between you and the next guy, that's the way you'd restart. You might lose some lead time (because the cars are bunched back up), but not position. If you fought to pass a bunch of cars, everyone behind you should have to do the same.

Now, if you fall behind the guy in front, a caution would no longer do a RESET and automatically bring you right up to his bumper; you'd still have to pass all the cars in between.

In fact, I would let the leader restart in a row by himself with the next row not allowed pass his rear bumper until after the start/finish line.

I think this would make it far more interesting to watch the whole race. It means a guy that fought for position doesn't lose that position because of a caution.

Right now, if a caution comes out with a few laps to go, it basically nullifies all that went on before.

Joe


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## smalltime (Jun 3, 2006)

That almost exactly describes my two favorite forms of motorsports:
F1 and Sprint cars.

Good ideas.


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## Pomfish (Oct 25, 2003)

Well the last race at Texas was just like the old days, only 6 cars on the lead lap, Margin of victory was a ton.

I watched the thrilling last 15 laps 

But the stands looked real sparse, anyone know what the "Official bogus inflated Nascar" attendance was?

Later,
Keith


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