# Polar Lights vs Monogram



## Frankie Boy (Feb 28, 2002)

Hello everyone.

Pardon my ignorance, but what are the differences, if there are any, between the Monogram monster repops of the erly 90's(?) and the Polar Lights repops? 
I'm talking about Frankenstein, Dracula, Phantom of the Opera and the Creature (were there more?).

Thanks in advance.


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## JamesDFarrow (Sep 18, 1999)

*They are the same*

All (I think) the last ones (except Phantom of the Opera - the last re-pop being a CineModels repop of the original Aurora mould which is now owned by Revell-Monogram) were either re-popped from the original Aurora moulds that Revell-Monogram still owns, or they were reverse engineered (to arrive at a mould that was the same as the Aurora mould that Revell-Monogram no longer has).

So, they are the same as the original Aurora kits.
The moulds just changed owners over the years.

I have a complete set (17 or 18) of MISB Monogram re-pops
of the original Aurora moulds. The newer ones are the same, just in different boxes.

I don't think there are any differences, although someone here will post if there was.

James


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## dreamer (Jan 1, 1970)

Just to add a little to that - of the ones mentioned, Monogram did no reverse engineering of their own, and when those were re-released under the Aaurora label, it was done through PL but still came from Monogram. So the only difference was the box and the inclusion of repros of the original instrux. PL has reverse-engineered some of the kits, buut not those that were released earlier by Monogram. 

If I screwed up some part of that info, someoene will correct it soon enough! :lol:


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## JamesDFarrow (Sep 18, 1999)

*Sorry, for the other part of your question*

When Monogram obtained the original moulds from Aurora they re-popped:

Godzilla in 1978 (Square Box - Glow in the Dark)
Dracula, Frankenstein, Mummy and Wolf Man in 1983 (Square Box - Glow in the Dark)

When Revell obtained Monogram (and hence the moulds) they re-popped:

Dracula in 1991 (Square Box)
Creature, Phantom in 1994 (Square Box)
Dracula, Frankenstein, Mummy, Wolf Man in 1994 (Square Box - Bonus Value Packs (Paint & Brush included))
Dracula, Frankenstein, Mummy, Wolf Man in 1991 (Square Box - Luminators (Blacklight) Series)
King Kong, Phantom in 1992 (Square Box - Luminators (Blacklight) Series

Then a company called CineModels had Revell-Monogram re-pop for them to sell:

Forgotten Prisoner of Castel Mare in 1992 (Long Box - Like the original Aurora one)
Phantom of the Opera in 1994 (Long Box - Like the original Aurora one)

Creature from the Black Lagoon, Dracula, Frankenstein, Mummy, Wolf Man in 1999 (Long Box - Like the the original Aurora one). These last 5 were only distributed by Polar Lights. They did not re-pop them.

James


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

Pl simply had Monogram shoot the Original Aurora molds and bag them & then PL recreated the original Aurora Boxes.However as I understand it, Monogram refuses to do this ever again for PL since the New managemant at Monogram Now considers PL as "The Competition"..
In addition, when Cinemodels had Monogram shoot the Forgotten Prisoner Mold, ALL they did was pull it out of Storage, and shoot it and bag it..it EVEN still has the ORIGINAL aurora logo and the year 1966 on the bottom base!!..


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## Frankie Boy (Feb 28, 2002)

So let me get this straight. The 1999 long boxes with the Aurora label were only distributed by Polar Lights but popped by Monogram. Yes?
With follow-ups like Kong and the Witch, with the Polar Lights label, are these then reverse engineered kits?
And if Monogram pulled the plug on the re-pop/distribution deal with Polar Lights, how — assuming Monogram still owns the rights to the original molds — is Polar Lights able to reverse engineer these models without breaking copyright laws? Or is reverse engineering a different deal that Monogram would have agreed to?
And while we're at it, what are the differences, if any, between a reverse engineered job and a regular repop?

Thanks.


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## Dave Metzner (Jan 1, 1970)

The kits which Revell-Monogram has run in original Aurora tools and distributed by Polar Lighs are:
Frankenstein
Wolf Man
Dracula
Mummy
Creature from the Black Lagoon
Godzilla
King Kong
Forgotten Prisoner.

These eight kits were all produced in the ORIGINAL Aurora tooling which is owned by Revell-Monogram. 
All the other kits produced by Polar Lights have been being produced in new tooling owned by Polar Lights. 
Though many of those kits are re-issues of old Aurora subjects they are being produced By Polar Lights in our own tooling. To my knowledge no other tooling for any of these kits exists.

I don't recall ever saying that Revell Monogram had refused to EVER again run anything for Polar Lights. I believe the tone of our discussion has been that Revell doesn't currently feel that they wish to run more product for us.

We continue to have a cordial relationship with the folks at Revell and even though there are no current plans for them to run more product for us there is no reason to believe that we might never find future projects where we might work together.

Dave


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## Cro-Magnon Man (Jun 11, 2001)

Frankie Boy asked some good questions, though.


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## Steve CultTVman Iverson (Jan 1, 1970)

Dave

You may want to add this question to the FAQ on the website as it seems to keep coming up...

Or maybe someone wants to start an "unofficial PL FAQ" somewhere

Steve


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2002)

*Don't forget*

the guillotine.

(Hi Steve)

Scott


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## Frankie Boy (Feb 28, 2002)

Thanks Dave.
I have all the original monster model line-up (except Dr. J and Mr. H. — hint, hint) but they're in storage waiting to be built. Most of them are Polar Lights kits, but the Crearture and Phantom are Monogram. 
After your post, I double checked the labelling and I realize I was wrong about some of the kits that have the Aurora label as opposed to those that have the Polar Lights label.
I think I get it now. Those kits with the Aurora label are from the original molds popped by Monogram and distributed by Polar Lights. Those with the Polar Lights label are new molds (reverse engineered) owned by Polar Lights and, hence, no copyright infringement. If I still haven't got it please let me know.
This all took a turn from the intent of my original question, but thanks for the additional insight.


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

Dave Metzner said:


> *The kits which Revell-Monogram has run in original Aurora tools and distributed by Polar Lighs are:
> Frankenstein
> Wolf Man
> Dracula
> ...



Hi Dave,

I was not quoting YOU, when I said that..I was quoting someone that had told me they had spoken to someone at Monogram some months ago, & whoever it was at Monogram, said that.I guess it could be considered hearsay, but there it is..


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## Mitchellmania (Feb 14, 2002)

Let's hope a future PL/Revell venture would be
Aurora's FRIGHTNING LIGHTNING series!!!
a win-win for both companies (and us!!!).
Dave?


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## Roland (Feb 4, 1999)

Just a nerdy comment from an egghead engineer:

A little bit of good friendly competion is usually better for everyone than cut-throat competition is. Companies that constantly want to destroy their competitors are usually insecure. Monopolies are illegal, so why bother trying to be the only one on the block. You need competitors in order to stay in business.

I hope both PL and RM stay friendly competitors! 

Roland


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## phrankenstign (Nov 29, 1999)

Frankie Boy said:


> *I think I get it now....Those with the Polar Lights label are new molds (reverse engineered) owned by Polar Lights and, hence, no copyright infringement. If I still haven't got it please let me know.*


Not quite.....

The Forgotten Prisoner has a Polar Lights logo. It is also the only one on Dave's list that is available through hobby shops but NOT through Toys 'R' Us.


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## heiki (Aug 8, 1999)

*The creature pit and dungen?*



Dave Metzner said:


> *
> These eight kits were all produced in the ORIGINAL Aurora tooling which is owned by Revell-Monogram.
> All the other kits produced by Polar Lights have been being produced in new tooling owned by Polar Lights.
> Though many of those kits are re-issues of old Aurora subjects they are being produced By Polar Lights in our own tooling. To my knowledge no other tooling for any of these kits exists.
> ...


Dave,
Since the original tool is available for the Creature pit/Dungen, and Dean Miliano did show test shots of it from R/M on his WEB site, where and when could we see it be produced?
I know the current claim is that clear parts would need to be gotten separtately but this would be a neat diorama when assembled.
Did the sales figures for the other kits figure into a decision for this?

Thanks


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## Frankie Boy (Feb 28, 2002)

So why is the Forgotten Prisoner the only oddball, that is, the only original Aurora mold with Polar Lights on the kit box (as opposed to an Aurora label like all the rest given in Dave's list)?

Thanks again.


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## JamesDFarrow (Sep 18, 1999)

I know, it is confusing. LOL!

Now, when Monogram obtained the original Aurora moulds they did not obtain the Aurora Logo. That trademaked/copyrighted logo was in the hands of Tomy America, Inc. They, IIRC, bought the logo from Aurora.

Next, Monogram re-popped some of the kits (as per my list above) with their Logo on them. When they were bought by Revell, they (Revell) re-popped some of the kits but also used the Monogram logo. They could not use the Aurora logo as the they did not have the rights to it.

Now, in 1992, CineModels approached Revell-Monogram and had them re-pop the Forgotten Prisoner for them. He (CineModels) also obtained permission from Tomy to use the Aurora logo on the kit box. If you have this kit on the side of the box it has "Aurora Logo Used By Permission From Tomy America, Inc. 1992" The rest of the box is the same as the original Aurora kit except that the "Famous Monsters of Filmland" logo is missing. I do not know who distributed this kit. Maybe CineModels themselves, or Revell-Monogram, or who knows.

Then, sometimes after that, Cinemodels bought the Aurora Logo from Tomy. So it belongs to them now.

Then in 1994, CineModels approached Revell-Monogram and had them re-pop the Phantom of the Opera for them. And CineModels used the Aurora Logo again and also re-produced the long box art. Also, this kit is the first time that CineModels is shown on the box. On one side it has "1994 CineModels Inc". Again, I do not know who distributed this one.

Then in 1999, CineModels approached Revell-Monogram and had them re-pop The Creature, Dracula, Frankenstein, Mummy, and Wolf Man for them. Again, CineModels used "his" Aurora Logo and also re-produced the long box art work. Now these are the kits that a lot of people still think are Polar Lights releases. But they are not. They were only the distributor. On the side of the box it has "CineModels kit distributed by Polar Lights. Polar Lights is a registered trademark of Playing Mantis, South Bend, Indiana. Manufactured for CineModels by Revell-Monogram, Inc. 1999. Aurora is a trademark of CineModels, Inc.". So, Polar Lights only distributed these, they did not have them re-popped.

Now, just last year, I believe, Polar Lights licenced (for 3 years) the Aurora Logo from CineModels. So, any re-pops that Polar Lights did before 2001 only have the Polar Lights logo on them. After they obtained the rights to use the Aurora logo from CineModels they have used it on some kits, but not all of them.

That is really a short version explanation. There may be some funny twists that I am not aware of mixed in somewhere but researching for info is difficult so that is generally what I could muster together myself.

Anyway, as I saud before, it is confusing.

James


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## JamesDFarrow (Sep 18, 1999)

Again, sorry. So, based on the above, any kit that Polar Lights released in 1997 to 2000 (approximately) will only have the Polar Lights logo on them. In 2001 with the Forgotten Prisoner (I believe) they used the Aurora logo (Which they licensed from CineModels). They also used it on Godzilla, King Kong, Rodan, and Ghidorah. 

Now, to further confuse things. In 2000, Polar Lights approached Revell-Monogram and had them re-pop The Creature, Dracula, Frankenstein, and the Wolf Man for them. They obtained permission from CineModels to use the Aurora logo and released these 4 kits in one big box called "Monsters Frightening 4 Pack".

So, CineModels relaesed the 4 individually, and Polar Lights released them in a set.

Are you really confused now? LOL!

Anyway, it is difficult to get exact info. Most companies involved will not give out any more info that what is written on the boxes.

Such is the life of a researcher. LOL!

James


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## phrankenstign (Nov 29, 1999)

JamesDFarrow said:


> *.... So, based on the above, any kit that Polar Lights released in 1997 to 2000 (approximately) will only have the Polar Lights logo on them. In 2001 with the Forgotten Prisoner (I believe) they used the Aurora logo (Which they licensed from CineModels).....
> 
> James  *


Sorry James, but I'm going to have to reiterate:

"The Forgotten Prisoner has a Polar Lights logo. It is also the only one on Dave's list that is available through hobby shops but NOT through Toys 'R' Us."


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## JamesDFarrow (Sep 18, 1999)

Perhaps a better, shorter way of telling who released a kit with the Aurora Logo on it is by the year it was released (indicated on the side of the boxes).

Aurora (195? to 197?)
CineModels (1992 to 1999)
Polar Lights (2000 to ????)

James (who thinks that's right)


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## phrankenstign (Nov 29, 1999)

Johnny Lightning just released this Aurora product in 2002:










So I guess you'll need to change it to this:

Aurora (195? to 197?) 
CineModels (1992 to 1999) 
Polar Lights (2000 to 2001)
Johnny Lightning (2002-????)


:hat: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :hat:


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## JamesDFarrow (Sep 18, 1999)

*I Stand Corrected*

You are right Phrank. The Forgotten Prisoner has the Polar Lights Logo on it.

I knew I would screw up the answer somewhere. LOL!

James (who thinks I have confused myself now)


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## JamesDFarrow (Sep 18, 1999)

Phrank, you're making the story worse! LOL!

James


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## Frankie Boy (Feb 28, 2002)

Jesus, Mary and Joseph!!!

Is it too late to say, Sorry I asked?

Honestly though, thanks for all the bother you went to to answer what I thought was a simple question.








Sooo..........who would like to see Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde repopped? — just kidding.


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## JamesDFarrow (Sep 18, 1999)

*That's O.K. Frankie Boy*

People like Phrank, and I, love this detail stuff.
Some people think we're nuts but it is fun doing the research. Even though we get frustrated when we can't
find out some info, we still do it. LOL!

BTW, Phrank has put together a fantastic Polar Lights list (with pictures too).

Phrank, post the URL for him.

James


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## phrankenstign (Nov 29, 1999)

Thanks for the compliment!

Here it is:

Phrankenstign's UNAUTHORIZED Playing Mantis Model Inventory


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## Special Teams (Sep 22, 2000)

So how does Toys R Us fit into the picture? Does PL approach TRU and then approach Monogram or does TRU approach Cinemodels who then approaches PL who approaches Monogram or?
Aren't these exclusive kits paid for up front by TRU? Who decides which kits to produce and which kits not to produce?


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## Steve CultTVman Iverson (Jan 1, 1970)

I don't thing there has ever really been consistancy as to how Playing Mantis used the Aurora logo. The stuck it on the Planet of the Apes kits, which were originally produced by Addar. Addar was actually a company formed by ex-Aurora employees!

At one point, it was stated on these boards that PL would use the Aurora logo on products distributed to the mas markets like K-Mart and Wal-mart. The Polar Lights logo would be used on kits for hobby shops. That pattern appears to have lasted the first year the Aurora logo was used by PL.

There's no magical formula or rule. Just marketing whims.

Steve


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## tornado1 (Mar 28, 2002)

Who...actually...OWNS...the...Aurora logo ?
Is it a REAL company nowadays ? Is it just a familiar title ?
Is it borrowed ? Public domain ? 

Who EXACTLY is Aurora now ??????


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## Frankie Boy (Feb 28, 2002)

Phrankenstign:

Woah, Dude! 
That is one impressive sight you have there. Obviously you got way too much time on your hands. Excellent job!


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## JamesDFarrow (Sep 18, 1999)

As far as I know, Tomy America bought it (the Aurora Trademark) from Aurora when the assets came on the market. (in the 70's?) They did not really have any interest in the Aurora logo. But Aurora was only selling their "intellectual material" (Trademarks, Copyrights, whatever) as a package deal. All or nothing. I think Tomy wanted something else (to do with toys maybe?) so they bought the package deal. They got what they wanted, and the Aurora Logo as well.
Someone else here may know better.

Then in 1993 or 1994 CineModels bought the Aurora Logo from Tomy. As far as I know about them (CineModels) is that it is one person. I have the guy's name somewhere. Can't find it at the moment. As far as we know, he still owns it.

The last we heard, Playing Mantis (Polar lights) licenced/contracted/obtained permission/whatever from CineModels that allows them to use the logo.

This is, we were told, a 3-year deal.

As to what the details are (what it can be used on, etc...) that is a confidential matter between the two entities.

So unless something has changed since last year, CineModels owns the Logo, but allows Playing Mantis (Polar Lights) to use it.

James


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## JamesDFarrow (Sep 18, 1999)

Again, sorry. I am really tired today. Can't concentrate very well.

Anyway, the original Aurora company is long gone. When they went broke in the 70's they sold off all the assets. (or the vast majority at least) The moulds (and maybe the other hardware such as machinery) went to Monogram, and the "intellectual property" went to Tomy America.

So then, all those people (at Aurora) were out of a job. Some of them may have gone to work for Monogram, but I don't know.

A couple of years ago, the grandson (I believe) of one of the original owners of Aurora tried to revive the company.
They were calling it LAPCO (Lost Aurora Plastics Company).
But that deal fell through. Don't ask, you will open a can of worms. LOL!

Anyway, so there is no more Aurora company. Polar Lights uses (by permission) the Trademarked Logo, but that is it.
And Revell (who now owns Monogram) has a lot of the old moulds. Which ones exactly, we don't know, and I think they don't really know themselves. Revell will, from time-to-time, re-pop an old Aurora kit (the USS Enterprise Aircraft Carrier being the latest one), but they concentrate mostly on their own stuff. And, of course, PL also, from time-to-time will have Revell re-pop a kit for them.
And if the mould no longer exists, PL reverse engineers an actual old kit to arrive at a copy of the original mould.

James


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## Cro-Magnon Man (Jun 11, 2001)

Heiki has raised an interesting question, about the Animal Pit and the Dungeon. But I don't think the molds exist, as Heiki says. I think the resin versions of these kits were produced from a single set of prototype parts. Who found them and how I'm not sure of, but there was something on the Aurora Onelist about something incredible being found in a dumpster! So maybe that was how. But I don't think the resin Animal pit and Dungeon kits came from the original molds.


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## Steve CultTVman Iverson (Jan 1, 1970)

The molds for the Pit and Dungeon do exist. At least they did until recently. When Revell/Monogram reissued the Frankenstein and Dracula Monsters of the Movies kits, they were also going to do these two kits. There were some production problems and the parts would not come out of the molds well. Also, the clear parts were missing. There were a couple full sets test shots that were produced and a number of incomplete parts as well. The set availible from Python was actually produced using some of the incomplete parts and a talented sculptor/caster. Great kit by the way.

Steve


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## Mitchellmania (Feb 14, 2002)

I believe Python also has the Hanging Tree from
original Aurora test parts.


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## Big Daddy Dave (Sep 30, 1999)

Okay, I've been dying to find this out. On the new repop of the Forgotten Prisoner, what does the bottom of the base say? Does it have the Polar Lights Logo and trademark on it, Monogram, or the origional Aurora logo and trademark? Any idea?


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## -phil (May 25, 2000)

In very tiny letters it has the copyright symbol and "RV-MMILLC.2001". There's quite a few spots that look like something has been dremeled off.


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## phrankenstign (Nov 29, 1999)

"*RV-MMILLC.2001*" could be translated:



RV-M : Revell-Monogram
M : Morton Grove
I: Illinois
LLC : Limited Liability Corporation
2001: last year
OR

RV : Revell
MMI : 2001
LLC : Limited Liability Corporation
2001: last year

Does anyone else have a better translation?


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

phrankenstign said:


> *
> Does anyone else have a better translation? *


"ReVell-Monogram Models, ILLinois, Copyright 2001"?


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## phrankenstign (Nov 29, 1999)

Looks good to me!


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## A Taylor (Jan 1, 1970)

James-
You are missing a step in the history of the Aurora logo and intellectual properties. They were originally sold by Nabisco to the Tycho Corporation who held them for a few years before selling them to TOMY. 
Niether company did anything model-kit related with them, they bought them for the rights to use the AURORA-AFX logo on slot cars.
AT


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## JamesDFarrow (Sep 18, 1999)

Thanks A.T.!

I knew there was something in the mix that was not
model related.

James


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## phrankenstign (Nov 29, 1999)

A Taylor said:


> _...They were originally sold by Nabisco to the *Tycho* Corporation who held them for a few years before selling them to TOMY...._
> 
> AT


I believe that should have been "...Tyco Corporation...".


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## lonfan (Feb 11, 2001)

*MAN!!!*

JAMES&PHRANK,
You guys REALLy are on your toes.This whole thread Reminded me of the time back around 1992-3 That after picking up a Complete set of the Monogram Luminators (Well I thought it was a Complete set!)But anyhoo I Called up Monogram to ask someone/Anyone if there was any other AURORA repops coming Our way.Well Iwas connected to A guy who I WISH I could remember the name of.Maybe Bill or Ben Anyway this GUY knew as much as you guys about MONOGRAMS AURORA Stuff.In fact This Guy Bless him even let me know that there HAD been A Luminator KONG produced But that for some reason it got lower distribution. Sure enough Although I had paid ONLY aBuck ea. for all the rest,When I did find the Kong He cost me $60.00 But I'm greatful Because by going in to a Collectable Store after seeing Kong in the window I discovered This WHOLE incredible Hobby!!I have To thank this fella at Monogram for giving me a few minutes of his Time.Kinda Reminds me of Dave Metzner So Anyway Please continue these type threads I LEARN SO MUCH !! and how can I see this UN Released Pit kit?

LON/JOHN


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## ChrisW (Jan 1, 1970)

*LonFan - look here...*

http://www.toys-n-cars.com/


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## A Taylor (Jan 1, 1970)

Yup, TYCO it is. I had craters on the brain!
Lon, you most likely spoke with Bill Lastovich at Monogram/Revell/ogram. He is a nice guy and very knowledgeable about Aurora, but a bit stingy with Batmobile test shots! 
AT


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## lonfan (Feb 11, 2001)

*UNREAL*

That Sounds Right AT, Now what BATMOBILE TEST SHOTS!?!


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## BatToys (Feb 4, 2002)

*Batmobile test shots*

To answer your question Revell made Batmobile and BatCycle test shots about 10 years ago. Batmobile molded in apple green. Excellent quality.
Maybe I should put an extra on Ebay?


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## Mitchellmania (Feb 14, 2002)

Battoys, Stop it I'm drooling!


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## phrankenstign (Nov 29, 1999)

BatToys, do you have either one? If yes, how did you acquire them?


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## BatToys (Feb 4, 2002)

Yes I have both and maybe an extra Batmobile. 12 to 24 were made to check the molds, which were fine, then they were given to an ex-employee. I didn't get them directly from him but through a trade.

Revell's BatCycle was molded the same color. Can't tell difference from Aurora cast.


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

BatToys - we all _hate_ you.


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## phrankenstign (Nov 29, 1999)

BatToys, do you mind if I help double-check a set of those just to make sure they were okay ? After all, you can't be too careful!


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## lonfan (Feb 11, 2001)

*Battoys*

AT LEAST APHOTO PLEEZE


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## Frankie Boy (Feb 28, 2002)

The convolution (or maybe that should be evolution) of this thread is quite entertaining — not to mention informative!


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## BatToys (Feb 4, 2002)

*Superman prototype*

It would take me a while to find, picture and scan the green Batmobile but til then here is a photo of Revell's canceled Superman illumnator prototype. Revell was going to make it, they produced 12 or 24 with boxes but at the last minute DC canceled it saying it did not fit in with what Superman looked liked. To me it could have been a red kryptonite Superman.

Also I hope Revell's new owners are taking care of those Batmobile and BatCycle molds. Ten years ago under different ownership they took good care of them. Maybe PL can buy the molds? It would save them 300,000.00 rather than make new molds AND the prestige of finally having a desireable repop from the original molds.

Trivia: When my Revell employed neighbor told me he was thinking of producing the Lincoln Futura. I went fanboy saying it'll sell well because its the Batmobile. Then there was a delay because they could not find the windshield molds. He said they weren't sure to put more money into making new windshields- new ones that would not have the bifocal line like the original shield. I was going enthusiastic for them to make new windshields that were clearer and line free. Worth the wait.


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## Mitchellmania (Feb 14, 2002)

BatToys are you a collector or a business? Sounds
like you want to now values of these to resell?
They are great pieces, if you're selling, E-mail
me a price for the Batmobile, and Superman.


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## BatToys (Feb 4, 2002)

Mitchellmania said:


> *BatToys are you a collector or a business? Sounds
> like you want to now values of these to resell?
> *


I'm a collector. I'm mainly interested in prices for insurance purposes.


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## docplastic (May 10, 2003)

A bit of shameless commercialism: "Aurora Model Kits" by Schiffer Books (2004) has a complete list of Aurora reissues by Revell-Monogram and all other companies. With pictures. And the story of the wanderings of the Aurora trademark. (OK, there's at least one omission on reissues: Skilcraft repoped two dinosaurs in the 1990s.)


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