# Which "Enterprise" do you like



## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

It has been posed in another thread of which Enterprise you like more of the E and the D. 

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=98882
Be sure to go to that thread as well to express your opinion on those two.

But I pose the question as to which Enterprise out of all of them in the Star Trek Series you like the most and why.

Enterprise (NX-01)
Enterprise (TOS)
Enterprise (Refit)
Enterprise A
Enterprise B
Enterprise C
Enterprise D
Enterprise E

I myself Love the Excelsior type Enterprise B because I always loved the Excelsior. I think it stays with the Original Enterprise (TOS). It has cool lines yet not as Aerodynamic styled like the “E” But it does have a bit too much in the extra Impulse Engines they put on the Primary Hull. That bothered me a little.
The next ship I like is of course, the Enterprise (TOS). You have to stay with the favorite.

Then comes the “C”, then the Refit and “A”, then the “E”, then the NX-01, then finally the “D”. The “D” was a good ship, but I think to large, and more of a Pleasure Cruiser than a Starship. LOL

That’s my opinion, but I could be wrong


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

My top three favorites: 
Refit/E-A - not sure why, but this design is just DaBomb for me. Nothing else in Trekdom's various designs excites me as much the Refit. 
E-E - to me, the logical evolution of what came before. Looks fast standing still, too! 
E-B - if you take the "saucer mounted impulse engines" and change them in to shuttlebays, I like it a whole lot better. The idea of the impulse exhausts dumping directly on the warp nacelles just boggles my mind. 

- - - - - - 

Jeffrey Griffin
Griffworks Shipyards

* * * * * *

Star Trek Scale Modeling WebRing


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

I would have to go with the Space Shuttle Enterprise, TOS 1701, Refit 1701, and 1701-E.

The SS Enterprise was the first space craft called Enterprise, and I always have like the old space program.TOS 1701 is my all time favorite Enterprise, because the series means so much to me. The Refit was a beautiful ship, and the most like the original. The 1701-E, I like the design, very graceful.

Lloyd (TOS FAN)


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## Nighthawk (Oct 13, 2004)

I cut my Star Trek teeth on the Constitution Refit, so by default the 1701-A (and refit 1701) are my favorites, followed by the Enterprise-E, the Enterprise-D, the Enterprise-B, and then the TOS Enterprise. The C and the NX-01 are designs I don't much care for, even though I currently have the PL NX-01 on the bench and haven't touched it in ages. Oh well.


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## 1701ALover (Apr 29, 2004)

I've said it before, and I'll saying again: Refit/A...don't care much which markings or paint color...just LOVE the design. She looks strong, sleek and sexy, like she could beat the crap out of the Klingons (or Romulans or whoever), then come home to port and with very little ado, be back out on the prowl, ready to take on the next bad guy or spatial anomaly.

After that, the E (almost tied with the refit/A for first place), then the B (actually prefer the cleaner lines of the original Excelsior, but we're talking about Enterprises, so...), TOS, NX-01, C, and finally in LAST place, the D (the USS Pillowprise!).


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

The original 1701.

Don't even have to think twice on that one. The "why" needs no explaining.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Love the simple, clean lines of (and Jefferies' design philosophy regarding) the _TOS 1701_. The original _Constitution _ class most reminds me of naval ships in the plain gray plating and no holds barred functional look.

My next favorite is the _Phase II _ refit since it kept cleaner lines and simpler stylings than the movie refit which follows in my line of favorites.

The next one I like is the _1701C_. It maintains some classic lines and the look of utilitarian functionality that appeals to me.

After that the _1701B _ (I agree with the comment about the hangars being a better choice than the impulse engines). I _do like _ the pregnant guppy.  

The _1701D _ and _1701E _ follow after those. The _D_ I developed some affection for but the _E _ I couldn't care less about.


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## El Gato (Jul 15, 2000)

The original and still the best: TOS E. After that it depends on my mood, but probably the A, D, C, B and E. Don't care for the design of the NX (or for the show, for that matter) even though I couldn't resist the Polar Lights and Bandai models.José


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## Warped9 (Sep 12, 2003)

Favourite _Enterprise_ is the series version of MJ's original design.
2nd favourite is "The Cage" version.
3rd favourite is the TMP refit without any suffix.
The 1701D is okay, but I don't care for any of the others at all.


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## Just Plain Al (Sep 7, 1999)

Scotty put it best in TNG.

N-C-C-1-7-0-1 no bloody A, B, C, or D.


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## Gerry-Lynn (Mar 20, 2002)

I like the NX -01 - Yes. It is ugly... Like most spacw crafts would be - less pleasing to look at, but has that "Early" appearence, too.







I know it is "Butt" ugly - But I like it.



Gerry-Lynn


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## capt Locknar (Dec 29, 2002)

I would have to say the Refit first, the lines are just graceful and she is just a gorgeous ship, followed by the TOS and the B.

I never cared for the Ent D though, she looks too front heavy and looks like she would always tip forward to me. Just one Blasted Ugly ship to me


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## robcomet (May 25, 2004)

Hmmm.

Refit/A, C, TOS, E, D, B, NX

I like the C. Preferrred Andy Probert's original design though.

Rob


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## Edge (Sep 5, 2003)

Best to Worst:

1)Refit/A
2)TOS
3)E
4)C
5)D

The other two are off the radar (errr sensors). Both
Generations and 'Enterprise' are non-entities for me.
I would place the Excelsior between the E and D.

Edge


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## toastie (Apr 21, 2004)

1. TOS, Refit/A
2. E
3. C, B
4. NX, D

Basically, I like the Refit and TOS equally, E is pretty good, B and C are just OK, and I can't stand the NX and D...


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## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

Just Plain Al said:


> Scotty put it best in TNG.
> 
> N-C-C-1-7-0-1 no bloody A, B, C, or D.


I loved that Line in the show! :jest:


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## Nova Designs (Oct 10, 2000)

TOS 1701
Refit 1701/A
1701-D
1701-B
1701-E
NX-01


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## Stimpson J. Cat (Nov 11, 2003)

In order starting with my favorite, 1)TOS Enterpise, 2)Refit/A, 3)Enterprise B, 4)Enterprise C, 5)Enterprise E, 6)Enterprise D. I'm not including the NX because I personally don't think it is truly a part of the established Trek universe. Having said that I do like the lines of the NX but it seems like it should be a stable mate of the Akira class and not the model T of starfleet.


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## DL Matthys (May 8, 2004)

What's it matter?

I just like the show(s) and the movies...and building the models of them best I can. I think comparison topics about designs done by Jeffries, Probert, Sternbach and Eaves in service to their studio overlords, are best served in the TV and Movie forums. This forum is about the craft and craftsmanship.

WWGJD?

(What would Greg Jein do?)


DLM


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## FoxTrot (Jan 27, 2000)

Refit 1701/A
Ent B, Excelsior
Ent E
NX-01
Ent D

Sorry to all you 'D' lovers... Fox!


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## scotpens (Sep 6, 2003)

For me, the ONLY Enterprise is definitely Matt Jeffries' original NCC-1701: Simple, clean and functional, yet powerful and graceful looking. All the later versions starting with the STTMP refit became increasingly over-styled and over-designed, with the worst offenders being Enterprise-D (looks more like a Henry Moore sculpture than a spaceship) and Enterprise-E (just plain silly looking). Give me your basic saucer and three cigars anytime.


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

tie for first: TOS, refit, 1701a
4th, 1701e
5th, nx-01
6th, 1701d
tie for the toilet, 1701b, 1701c


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

TOS is the best. You never forget your first love.

The refit is a beautifully artistic interpretation of the original. There are times when my opinion alters and like her better.

The D is a graceful progression of the original format expressed in gorgeous flowing lines. My second fave.

The others:

The B is bastardization of studio desk jockies' stupid ideas, and misconceptions of fans' intelligence. Its additions destroy the well-designed lines of the sleek Excelsior.

The C was a quick-and-dirty hack job using design elements from all the other ships. Still, despite bits and pieces that bug me, I like the overall look.

The E is sleek and mean-looking, but that's not what a Star Trek ship is supposed to be. I don't dislike the design, but I dislike that it was designed with less care than past "main" Enterprises, with less intelligence and more fanboy kewlness. Also, I resent it! I loved the D, and resent B&B's selfish destruction of her to insert their "own" new Enterprise into the mythos. And in the space of 3 really crappy films, I have had NO time or urge to gain any affection for it.


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

Yer obsessing, John. 

- - - - - - 

Jeffrey Griffin
Griffworks Shipyards
 
* * * * * *

Star Trek Scale Modeling WebRing


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

John P said:


> . . . And in the space of 3 really crappy films, I have had NO time or urge to gain any affection for it [1701E].


_First Contact _ was an excellent film, IMHO. Unfortunately, it wasn't enough to establish the ship as anything really special. I have no affection for the _1701E_, either.


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## F91 (Mar 3, 2002)

TOS -
Don, don't worry, I'm working on a 22" E and posting!!


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Griffworks said:


> Yer obsessing, John.


Is that not why we're here?  :devil:


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## robcomet (May 25, 2004)

robcomet said:


> Hmmm.
> 
> Refit/A, C, TOS, E, D, B, NX
> 
> ...



I thought that I had better clarify my last remark so, for those who may not have seen it, here is a picture of the original concept.

Any likelyhood someone might make it?

Rob


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Just a little tweaking and plastic and putty and you could convert a _1701D _ to that. :devil: 

Much more balanced design than the _1701D_. I _like _ it!


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## Ignatz (Jun 20, 2000)

I've always had trouble figuring out what's going on with the area right where the nacelle struts fair into the secondary hull. It doesn't look like it works. The engines look like they are set pretty wide apart, yet the struts look like they go directly into the secondary hull. So is the end of the secondary hull super wide? Is the secondary hull a delta shape? If the struts go in at an angle, would this mean that they angle backwards toward the rear of the secondary hull? I like this sketch too. The struts on the 1701-C look like giant angle irons to me.


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## El Gato (Jul 15, 2000)

ignatz said:


> I've always had trouble figuring out what's going on with the area right where the nacelle struts fair into the secondary hull. It doesn't look like it works. The engines look like they are set pretty wide apart, yet the struts look like they go directly into the secondary hull. So is the end of the secondary hull super wide? Is the secondary hull a delta shape? If the struts go in at an angle, would this mean that they angle backwards toward the rear of the secondary hull? I like this sketch too. The struts on the 1701-C look like giant angle irons to me.


^ It could be that the secondary hull has no taper in the back whatsoever, maintaining a straight line for the pylons to attach upwards from it.

And speaking as someone who has never done a kitbash in his life: "You can build from existing model parts".

José


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## robcomet (May 25, 2004)

Ignatz said:


> I've always had trouble figuring out what's going on with the area right where the nacelle struts fair into the secondary hull. It doesn't look like it works. The engines look like they are set pretty wide apart, yet the struts look like they go directly into the secondary hull. So is the end of the secondary hull super wide? Is the secondary hull a delta shape? If the struts go in at an angle, would this mean that they angle backwards toward the rear of the secondary hull? I like this sketch too. The struts on the 1701-C look like giant angle irons to me.



Andy Probert said that the E-C would have been an intermediate step between the B and the D. By looking at the picture, it has the D saucer and the neck from the D with the ribs from the B. The engineering hull to me looks like it has the top half of the D with the general outline of an Excelsior class lower hull - this was designed before they gave the B a glandular problem!

The nacelle struts look like nothing I've seen before, they're neither B nor D. The warp engines are mainly D-ish - it looks like they never bothered to alter the design of them for the completed ship. Strangely enough, it looks like there are a row of windows in the strut, something I've not really seen in normal Star Trek ship design.




El Gato said:


> ^ It could be that the secondary hull has no taper in the back whatsoever, maintaining a straight line for the pylons to attach upwards from it.
> 
> And speaking as someone who has never done a kitbash in his life: "You can build from existing model parts".
> 
> José



The B hull to me looks like it basically runs in a straight line down most of the hull before tapering to where the upper shuttle bay is like the Excelsior.

Kitbashing fills me with dread. :freak: I just don't have the confidence in my abilities to take what would be three seperate kits and chop them to bits before sticking them together. Still, would be a good looking ship though.


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## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

Hey does anyone know what the heck that opening is under the Enterprise B and Excelsior? Like it is a Hanger deck of some sort, but the shuttle bays are in the back. Anyone know?


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Supposedly the hangar deck is under there, the doors on the aft are the CARGO bay.


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

It's a nice place for an enemy to fire torpedoes into.


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## Nighthawk (Oct 13, 2004)

According to the diagrams in the Sketchbook for Generations and First Contact, that area is antimatter storage and generation, with decks above that. I'm not inclined to believe that these diagrams are entirely accurate, though...


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

I found at Wal-Mart tonight 2 PL TOS 1701's. These are the first kits that I have found in any stores. All the other kits I bought online. I am SO HAPPY HAPPY!

I thought I would share my JOY!


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## Captain April (May 1, 2004)

Never mess with an original...


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Tholian said:


> Hey does anyone know what the heck that opening is under the Enterprise B and Excelsior? Like it is a Hanger deck of some sort, but the shuttle bays are in the back. Anyone know?



The old Starfleet Academy computer game shows a hanger door there which is what I'm going to do with my model (whenever I get around to finishing it).


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

PerfesserCoffee, are you heading south for christmas?


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Lloyd Collins said:


> PerfesserCoffee, are you heading south for christmas?


Nah! My stepsister will be visiting at my father's and he told me I'd probably be put into a corner and ignored if I came at Christmas so I'm going down yonder in January when I can be a proper diversion for the family. :freak:

All I'm doing during vacation is painting the inside walls of my house. Nearly done with the kitchen and then just two (smaller) rooms to go! :thumbsup:


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## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

Captain April said:


> Never mess with an original...



But which Original? The Original Original? LOL 

I actually think the First Pilot series looked Looked Blah!

Second was kinda Blah!

Series was top notch!


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

I love all three versions:

From the First pilot version,










to the Second Pilot version,










and finally, the series production version.




















Even the three footer.




















With all these great variations on the one design, how could you possibly go wrong?


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## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

Trek Ace said:


> I love all three versions:
> 
> Even the three footer.
> 
> ...


Did you know that until you showed that picture, I had no idea that they used the three footer in the show?

I thought it was only for Gene for whatever he wanted to do with it, promotion or display, or whatever.

Or is this a picture mock up? Was it used in the show?


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

FWIU, the footage here of the three footer was shot for the first pilot and reused later.


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

You'll notice, too, that the shot is flipped L-to-R.


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## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

Trek Ace said:


> You'll notice, too, that the shot is flipped L-to-R.


Didn't even see that! :freak:


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## ClubTepes (Jul 31, 2002)

My Fav's.

Refit 1701/A. All said before. Sleek, very thoughtful continuation of the original.

TOS 1701. What can you say, its the original. Redone on DS9 and currently in various CG incarnations show that the design still holds up.

1701 'E'. The slickest of the designs. (maybe not the best, but the slickest).

NX-01. Unfairly slandered by those who can't accept something new and who might transpose their dislike of the show towards the ship itself. It has a good utilitarian design. I like the colorscheme and the added surface details add to the ships realism.

1701 'D'. Enh...... Saw it so much, its just in there. An interesting change to the TOS design.

1701 'C'. Its a design. Not very inspired.

1701 'B'. An abomination of the Excelsior design. I agree with everything John Payne said about it.


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## KUROK (Feb 2, 2004)

TOS E is my favorite... always has and always will. I like its simple, clean and very photogenic lines.

Refit is a close second. As someone said it is an appropriate modernized interpretation of the original.

Just don't like any of the others much. When they went away from the circular saucer section, it just didn't work for me. Although the Ent E is at least an improvement over the D...


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## cinc2020 (May 10, 2004)

*The Refit*

My preference is the Enterprise refit seen in ST: TMP and ST: TWOK (ST 3 through 6 sucked).

The design is a unique mix of grace and class combined with an incredible amount of power. It was filmed beautifully to convey its size and the wonder of spaceflight, without all those meaningless greeblies and randomly placed lights evident in ships of Star Wars and Alien. When I see the refit on the big screen, I gasp at the artistic talent that went into the thing. It also inspires me as a symbol of future spaceflight, of what might come to pass one day.... 

Put simply, it looked like something humans will build in the future, assuming we nail superluminal velocity, artificial gravity, and transporters (maybe the middle one, but probably not the others...).


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## Nova Designs (Oct 10, 2000)

Yeah she really is a beauty isn't she :wave:


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## cinc2020 (May 10, 2004)

*Orders*

Imagine you just pinned on captain, and you find your orders in your inbox. The orders indicate you've been assigned as commanding officer of a beast like that. Specifically, you have five years to romp around among the stars to find...anything of interest. You can use anything from the art of diplomacy to the art of war. You can eat whatever you want, take a stroll in a botanical garden, or watch cool movies on a jumbo screen with your crewmates. You can also feel ten feet tall taking the ship to interstellar ports of call...

That's my fantasy. And that's why I want to build the model - I live vicariously through my art.

Very nice image, BTW.


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## artic316 (Sep 12, 2000)

*mmmmmm*

The E hands down.Big,powerful ,slick and 1 hell of a$$ kicker.



improvise,adapt and overcome.we are the fellowship of modelers.


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## 1701ALover (Apr 29, 2004)

cinc2020 said:


> Imagine you just pinned on captain, and you find your orders in your inbox. The orders indicate you've been assigned as commanding officer of a beast like that. Specifically, you have five years to romp around among the stars to find...anything of interest. You can use anything from the art of diplomacy to the art of war. You can eat whatever you want, take a stroll in a botanical garden, or watch cool movies on a jumbo screen with your crewmates. You can also feel ten feet tall taking the ship to interstellar ports of call...
> 
> That's my fantasy. And that's why I want to build the model - I live vicariously through my art.
> 
> Very nice image, BTW.


Yes...beautifully put! I've had that fantasy since I was about 10 and saw this beauty (the refit E) for the first time. I, too, look forward to the 1/350 kit, to be able to finally have a model worthy of her!


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

artic316 said:


> The E hands down.Big,powerful ,slick and 1 hell of a$$ kicker.


 Too bad the show was supposed to be about exploration, discovery and the advancement of the human condition, not ass-kicking.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

John P said:


> Too bad the show was supposed to be about exploration, discovery and the advancement of the human condition, not ass-kicking.


That's the revised, politically-correct Gene Roddenberry version.
The Original Series was based on the old British Captains ala' Horatio Hornblower. Those old British Captains were indeed military men but also performed the tasks of traders, diplomats, policemen, and when necessary - were ass-kickers too. 

There's really no modern military equivalent these days as everything is explored and spheres of influence set. So it's hard to imagine an organization that would require all those tasks(ass-kicking too) - other then if faster then light space exploration were possible and we were to explore Space, the final frontier.

I like what Franz Joseph's daughter said about Roddenberry's move to make Starfleet seem less like a military organization: "Yeah right, that's why everyone salutes one another and calls each other Captain and Lieutenant." :lol:


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Chuck_P.R. said:


> That's the revised, politically-correct Gene Roddenberry version.
> The Original Series was based on the old British Captains ala' Horatio Hornblower. Those old British Captains were indeed military men but also performed the tasks of traders, diplomats, policemen, and when necessary - were ass-kickers too.
> 
> There's really no modern military equivalent these days as everything is explored and spheres of influence set. So it's hard to imagine an organization that would require all those tasks(ass-kicking too) - other then if faster then light space exploration were possible and we were to explore Space, the final frontier.
> ...


Good points, Chuck! The best idea we have of what Roddenberry wanted initially is _The Cage _ though there were definite concessions to current trends in cowboy action adventure series: Spocks impression of Chester, Pike's impression of Matt Dillon, and the doctor's impression of 'Doc'. It was really _Gunsmoke in Space_. 

What is really neat to look at is the cerebral nature of the first pilot. While it definitely had its action elements and borrowed character relationships, it was a 'makes you think' episode with some of the grand elements of sci-fi.

Excellent point about the 'military aspect' of _TOS_. It was more of an elite 'astronaut' corps of sorts in the relationships among crewmembers. There were definitely some 'I'm in charge' moments reflecting military tradition but that was only one aspect of Starfleet.


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

I really like that D concept, myself. 

The saucer looks to be near the final design, save for the leading edge. The pods look to be from the C. The engineering hull does appear to be a delta, with a huge fantail underneath, like the Excelsior, with the dorsal, again, looking like the C's.

Are there any ortho views or sketches available?


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## ThomasModels (Mar 8, 2000)

There is only _one_...










*All* others that followed are mere copies of this great design and execution.


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## El Gato (Jul 15, 2000)

artic316 said:


> The E hands down.Big,powerful ,slick and 1 hell of a$$ kicker.


_Space: The final frontier. These are the voyages of the starship Enterprise. It's five year mission: To explore strange new words, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly kick some a$$._ :freak:

Loses something in the translation.


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## Nova Designs (Oct 10, 2000)

*ROFL!!!!* :jest:


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## robcomet (May 25, 2004)

Trek Ace said:


> I really like that D concept, myself.
> 
> The saucer looks to be near the final design, save for the leading edge. The pods look to be from the C. The engineering hull does appear to be a delta, with a huge fantail underneath, like the Excelsior, with the dorsal, again, looking like the C's.
> 
> Are there any ortho views or sketches available?


Trek Ace - if you mean the picture I posted, it's the C concept as designed by Andrew Probert. I haven't seen any other type of picture available for this ship, other than the original.

Rob


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## Stimpson J. Cat (Nov 11, 2003)

Chuck_P.R. said:


> That's the revised, politically-correct Gene Roddenberry version.
> The Original Series was based on the old British Captains ala' Horatio Hornblower. Those old British Captains were indeed military men but also performed the tasks of traders, diplomats, policemen, and when necessary - were ass-kickers too.
> 
> There's really no modern military equivalent these days as everything is explored and spheres of influence set. So it's hard to imagine an organization that would require all those tasks(ass-kicking too) - other then if faster then light space exploration were possible and we were to explore Space, the final frontier.


That is spot on. I look to TOS as my touch stone for the Trek universe and there was a lot of butt kicking in that era. I didn't really start warming up to TNG until the Borg arrived. I often wonder what Kirk would say if he had to put up with Deana Troi on his bridge? On second thought she might look good in a Starfleet mini dress/uniform. :lol:


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## Nighthawk (Oct 13, 2004)

That's what she wore in the first few episodes. It's rather amusing.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

PerfesserCoffee said:


> Good points, Chuck! The best idea we have of what Roddenberry wanted initially is _The Cage _though there were definite concessions to current trends in cowboy action adventure series: Spocks impression of Chester, Pike's impression of Matt Dillon, and the doctor's impression of 'Doc'. It was really _Gunsmoke in Space_.
> 
> What is really neat to look at is the cerebral nature of the first pilot. While it definitely had its action elements and borrowed character relationships, it was a 'makes you think' episode with some of the grand elements of sci-fi.
> 
> Excellent point about the 'military aspect' of _TOS_. It was more of an elite 'astronaut' corps of sorts in the relationships among crewmembers. There were definitely some 'I'm in charge' moments reflecting military tradition but that was only one aspect of Starfleet.


When I mentioned the "Horatio Hornblower" series I wasn't just using a literary example. 

I have an old copy of an issue of Trek magazine somewhere from the 70's in which Roddenberry says he *literally* based Kirk on that character; and also based the nature of the Enterprise's mission being akin to that of a British naval captain's mission.

In those days a British naval captain was a genuine explorer, he was often tasked with making "first contact" and had the authority to make treaties on behalf of Britian, he was tasked with maintaining British miliatary supremacy in British controlled waters as well as policing the realm in order to protect loyal citizens of the federation ... eh, kingdom. They were often tasked with supplying, setting up, and rescuing colonies as well.

Not since those days has there been a naval tradition that required it's officers to have all those skills as well as the ability to "kick ass" when necessary...

Roddenberry said he read that series of books voraciously as a child and he based TOS around it.


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## Tholian (Oct 3, 2004)

Stimpson J. Cat said:


> That is spot on. I look to TOS as my touch stone for the Trek universe and there was a lot of butt kicking in that era. I didn't really start warming up to TNG until the Borg arrived. I often wonder what Kirk would say if he had to put up with Deana Troi on his bridge? On second thought she might look good in a Starfleet mini dress/uniform. :lol:


Kirk – Counselor?

Troi – Yes Captain?

Kirk – Would you like to join me in the Officers mess after this duty shift for dinner?

Troi – Captain, you may be feeling emotions related to your seclusion aboard this ship for so long. Trying to seek sexual relations may not be a prudent thing to seek since we are on a five-year mission. It may cause instability in bridge operations between us.

Kirk – (Looks at Spock) – What is she talking about Spock?

Spock – (raises Eyebrow)


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

Tholian said:


> Kirk – Counselor?
> 
> Troi – Yes Captain?
> 
> ...


I don't think Troi would ever make it to the bridge.
Kirk would take a crack at her, but even if he scored would quickly realize she talked too damn much to make the sex worth having to listen to all of her rambling touch-feely babble. 

Then he would stick her in a sub-office of Dr. McCoy's sickbay, who would then bribe Scotty to stage another ion tube accident. :lol:


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## terryr (Feb 11, 2001)

Yeah right, Deanna Troi. Someone was shooting at them and she says 'captain, I sense hostility'. Thanks for the insight. They didn't mention she was a fake because she wore the mini dress.

Have you seen the Movie Horatio Hornblower, with Gregory Peck? It even has a TOS klingon in it complete with a sash. I think he copied the movie, not the book.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Chuck_P.R. said:


> When I mentioned the "Horatio Hornblower" series . . .
> 
> Roddenberry said he read that series of books voraciously as a child and he based TOS around it.


I'm not disputing that. I've read the same comments. I'm just pointing out the borrowed elements from westerns and the characters' relationships being obviously based in part on the characters from _Gunsmoke_ were an attempt to appeal to television audiences from the period. The more 'cerebral' first pilot showed how Roddenberry wanted to combine the two different genres to make an exciting yet thought-provoking sci-fi series. It was more than just _Horatio Hornblower_ though that character definitely was a huge part of Kirk.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

terryr said:


> Yeah right, Deanna Troi. Someone was shooting at them and she says 'captain, I sense hostility'. Thanks for the insight. They didn't mention she was a fake because she wore the mini dress.
> 
> Have you seen the Movie Horatio Hornblower, with Gregory Peck? It even has a TOS klingon in it complete with a sash. I think he copied the movie, not the book.


I didn't know there was a movie!
He definitely read all of the books as a kid according to Roddenberry. There was series of books he named, not all of them had the name Hornblower in the title but they were all about Hornblower.

Maybe he even deliberately and/or subconsciously borrowed from the movie too.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

PerfesserCoffee said:


> I'm not disputing that. I've read the same comments. I'm just pointing out the borrowed elements from westerns and the characters' relationships being obviously based in part on the characters from _Gunsmoke_ were an attempt to appeal to television audiences from the period. The more 'cerebral' first pilot showed how Roddenberry wanted to combine the two different genres to make an exciting yet thought-provoking sci-fi series. It was more than just _Horatio Hornblower_ though that character definitely was a huge part of Kirk.


True, very true. I just didn't know if you knew about it, and even if you did I didn't want anyone else to think I was just using the book series as an example.

It's true that no ships captains of today have such all-encompassing responsibilities and latitude, but in the past of a couple hundred years ago many did. The only point being that the Enterprises' mission was indeed military in nature, just not in terms of how we think of our modern military commanders.

Because they are no longer required to negotiate treaties, act as ambassadors, explore uncharted areas, make first diplomatic contact with new people, establish, and supply colonies, etc., it's tempting to characterize a lot of what was done in TOS and TNG as non-military when actually it was.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

El Gato said:


> _Space: The final frontier. These are the voyages of the starship Enterprise. It's five year mission: To explore strange new words, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly kick some a$$._ :freak:
> 
> Loses something in the translation.


Hey, they only did it when someone forced them!
Though time and time again it seems like people where constantly forcing them to start the butt-kicking around minute 35 or so... :lol:


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Chuck_P.R. said:


> . . . Because they are no longer required to negotiate treaties, act as ambassadors, explore uncharted areas, make first diplomatic contact with new people, establish, and supply colonies, etc., it's tempting to characterize a lot of what was done in TOS and TNG as non-military when actually it was.


Military in general purpose a la Hornblower, emphatically yes. Militaristic in style, i.e. all action and no brain, no.


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

My favorite Enterprise is the now series. It is so original, great scripts, and Rick's leadership shows why Gene handpicked him to take over ST.





:jest: :roll: :devil:


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

ThomasModels said:


> There is only _one_...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Makes me feel sorry that you had to work on the models of the other Enterprises. NOT. :lol:


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## Nova Designs (Oct 10, 2000)

Lloyd Collins said:


> My favorite Enterprise is the now series. It is so original, great scripts, and Rick's leadership shows why Gene handpicked him to take over ST.



Don't make me slap you! :devil:


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## El Gato (Jul 15, 2000)

Chuck_P.R. said:


> Hey, they only did it when someone forced them!
> Though time and time again it seems like people where constantly forcing them to start the butt-kicking around minute 35 or so... :lol:


FWIW, I don't subscribe to the Kirk-is-all-action, Picard-is-all-about-touchy-feely-stuff because not once did you see Kirk kick a$$ without first trying diplomacy ("An Errand of Mercy", "Omega Glory" or "Friday's Child"), brainlessly firing phasers if he felt he needed to consult his officers first ("Balance of Terror" or "Star Trek II") or not once did you ever see Picard failing to take action when action was necessary. Notwithstanding the different personalities, both captains behaved similarly in carryout out their duty. What was different was the types of stories _told._ By the 80s/90s the audiences liked more nuance in their stories, so the plots were more nuanced.

Unfortunately by the late 90s the B&Bs intrduced the "hey here's a new alien species that wants to blow us out of the sky" type of plot that became more cartoony than any western from the 40s or 50s. All new aliens were hostile, so the Voyager/Enterprise plots depended less on exploration and new contact and more on the "we need to kick some a$$" bovine excrement.

And Kirk _did_ have a counselor on board. Their names were Spock and McCoy

José


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