# What Makes "Flow"?



## Dslot (Sep 2, 2007)

The *Unsuccessful Curve Combinations* thread made me wonder. 

We often say a course has good flow or poor flow, and I, like most everyone else I guess, like to think that I know good flow when I see it in a track diagram or when I drive it (even in my head). But what exactly is "flow," and what contributes to good "flow" and what detracts from it?

-- D


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

It's an interesting question and I'll bet everyone has a different answer. What I have always found interesting is how 6" curves can either be very bothersome or just "flow". I've put them in spots I thought would be great and they were a pain, and I've put them where I thought they would be terrible and they turned out to be fine. Haven't quite figured out why that is.

Joe


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## blubyu (May 4, 2008)

A car that is setup right seems to contribute to "good flow".


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## demether (Aug 26, 2008)

On my track, I've got 2 mixed turns (6"-9" inside, 9"-12" outside), and I like it. It stills quite fast, but it's technic, for both non magnet and magnet cars. 

But remember that I run nothing "wilder" than 440x2 f1s... :thumbsup:


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## mikeponiatowski (Jan 24, 2006)

Dslot said:


> The *Unsuccessful Curve Combinations* thread made me wonder.
> 
> We often say a course has good flow or poor flow, and I, like most everyone else I guess, like to think that I know good flow when I see it in a track diagram or when I drive it (even in my head). But what exactly is "flow," and what contributes to good "flow" and what detracts from it?
> 
> -- D


This is just one guy's opinion on the subject.

I consider track "flow" in the same way I consider a tracks rhythm. I define a track with good flow and rhythm as one that does not have a lot of slowing curves that require major shifts in car speed. Tracks with larger radius curves and/or minimal curves in my opinion constitute a track with good flow or rhythm. A highly technical course, such as a FRAY type course or difficult road course with lots of various curve types and radii would not have good flow or rhythm. 

Neither type is good or bad, just different types of layout styles. 

I have two tracks, a race course that I would consider to have good flow/rhythm with higher speeds and less difficult turns and a road course that requires much more driving skills and more varied speeds to execute.

Again, just one guy's opinion on an interesting subject.


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## mikeponiatowski (Jan 24, 2006)

mikeponiatowski said:


> This is just one guy's opinion on the subject.
> 
> I consider track "flow" in the same way I consider a tracks rhythm. I define a track with good flow and rhythm as one that does not have a lot of slowing curves that require major shifts in car speed. Tracks with larger radius curves and/or minimal curves in my opinion constitute a track with good flow or rhythm. A highly technical course, such as a FRAY type course or difficult road course with lots of various curve types and radii would not have good flow or rhythm.
> 
> ...



The thread "Unsuccesful Curve Combiniations" shows good examples of tracks with good flow (higher speeds, larger radius and less technical turns) and more technical tracks such as a "curvey" roadcours.


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## twolff (May 11, 2007)

Hard to tell what makes for good flow on a track, but it is very easy to tell where a track does not flow well.

Generally, a 6" curve at the end of a long straight, "squiggles" (I can't think of any layout feature I loathe more than squiggles), and "bus stops" flow poorly.


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## mikeponiatowski (Jan 24, 2006)

twolff said:


> Hard to tell what makes for good flow on a track, but it is very easy to tell where a track does not flow well.
> 
> Generally, a 6" curve at the end of a long straight, "squiggles" (I can't think of any layout feature I loathe more than squiggles), and "bus stops" flow poorly.


Agreed!


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## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)

What one person thinks has good flow, may be totally NOT good flow to someone else. It is kind subjective, in a way.

Typically, I find that multiple "S" turns, anything tighter than a 12" corner and too many turns crammed onto a table ruins flow for me. However, locally, the tracks I consider to have questionable flow, some others refer to as being "rhythm" tracks.

For me, I prefer a little technical challenge which opens up to a long-ish straightaway where I can bury the trigger and get a bead on the next corner(s). That is what *I* would consider to be a good-flowing track.


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## Lype Motorsport (Mar 14, 2004)

On our 4 lane road course, I have a couple decreasing radius carousels and one increasing corner leading onto the 14+ ft backstretch. Ya gotta have some HP under the hood, and a good handlin' chassis to cut a good lap! 

There are no curve sections smaller than a 9 inch radius. Like others have said, the "flow or rhythm" on a track is an indivdual feel, beit slot cars or 1:1 cars. Certain cars "feel better on some tracks, not so good on others for whatever reason.

I know we changed the curves on out 4 lane several times before we found a layout suited to our styles (the TM/RN and mine) the best. We have had friends over to run that were thrown for a loop with decreasing/increasing radius corners.............for a while.:thumbsup:

Just my .07 cents worth, adjusted for the current economy

Larry


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

twolff said:


> Hard to tell what makes for good flow on a track, but it is very easy to tell where a track does not flow well.
> 
> Generally, a 6" curve at the end of a long straight, "squiggles" (I can't think of any layout feature I loathe more than squiggles), and "bus stops" flow poorly.


As an example of "flow" being more a personal observation rather than a reflection of track design....I disagree with this 100%. 

Although maybe not 100%...not sure what you mean by "bus stops"


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## Rolls (Jan 1, 2010)

Gene - I think any funky combination of turns that resemble the "bus stop" chicane at Spa-Francorchamps. 

http://wikimapia.org/#lat=50.4416093&lon=5.9668422&z=17&l=0&m=b


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Thanks :thumbsup:

Doesn't look _that_ bad


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## twolff (May 11, 2007)

SwamperGene said:


> Thanks :thumbsup:
> 
> Doesn't look _that_ bad


Annoying as hell in the middle of a long straight.


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Benefit of 6" corners,is they teach you to drive,i purposely put mine at the end of my 13ft straight,to teach myself the fine art of braking:thumbsup:


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## Rolls (Jan 1, 2010)

One should always brake as late as possible before entering a tight turn - but no later. 

But seriously, folks... is this "flow" thing hard to define, or what?!


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## old blue (May 4, 2007)

I found that banked curves added a lot to the flow. It meant less interruption and more driving enjoyment. It also ment fewer crashes for the t-jets that I spend time polishing. Sometimes I think it dumbs down my driving, but other times it keeps my lazy butt on the seat and a smile on my face.

Old Blue


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## resinmonger (Mar 5, 2008)

The following is just a hutt's opion and does not reflect the opinion of actual, normal people:

First, what is good _flow_? I imagine it has different meanings to different people. IMHO, it means you can lay down a long series of consistent laps. In other words, you can run fast with few deslots. It seems to me that the typical 4 x 16 commercial tracks such as the scorpion have good flow. If racers can get cars to consistently run somewhere around .9c as happens in modified, ristrcted open, etc. class races, the track must flow well. See the track and possibly the cars in the link below.






At the other end of the spectrum, Fray tracks tend to be consederably more complex but they are designed to accomodate wicked fact Tjets. While these cars are pretty fast they do not compare with light benders (AKA high end magnet cars). See the link below for some Fray action.






So, both tracks appear to allow the drivers to get down consistent laps. I could see some Fray drivers becoming bored with the first track while some magnet drivers may become frustracted with the second track. Obviously, there will be drivers in both categories that like both tracks. In any case, I think flow is very much a function of the type of car you mostly run.

I'm just saying... :freak:


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Hornet said:


> Benefit of 6" corners,is they teach you to drive,i purposely put mine at the end of my 13ft straight,to teach myself the fine art of braking:thumbsup:


Same here, 6/9 combo then 6/9 reversed at the end of the long front straight, causes plenty of bitchin' but never a complaint. :thumbsup:


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## Tsooko (Oct 15, 2009)

Rolls said:


> Gene - I think any funky combination of turns that resemble the "bus stop" chicane at Spa-Francorchamps.
> 
> http://wikimapia.org/#lat=50.4416093&lon=5.9668422&z=17&l=0&m=b


Funny thing about Spa ,is that it is the fastest of the F1 courses. Even with all the sharp corners the average speed is over 160. (The race is on this weekend by the way.) 
Good flow to me means that the track can have a rhythm that you can get into and increase til you deslot. I have a short test track that is fun to run when you get into the rhythm and a longer track that was hard to drive at first but now is a lot of fun after learning how to drive the rhythm. Both are routed tracks and both have very sharp corners where you have to slow down alot. Both have good flow but the flow is different.
Here's a video of the last track, a copy of Suzuka in Japan designed by Tossedman. Cut out with a cnc router.







Cheers Ted


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

When you gonna get that CNC Router funtional Ted,there's a couple guys interested in it here too,besides Todd.:wave:
Rick


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## tjd241 (Jan 25, 2004)

*ding !*



Tsooko said:


> Good flow to me means that the track can have a rhythm that you can get into and increase til you deslot. Ted


I agree with Ted... I think this has ALOT to do with "flow". Big or small... light bender or stock tjet... You don't even have to analyze it too much more. My last track had a nice "look"... but one section was a constant problem. If you find yourself *constantly* re-slotting your car in a particular spot... even after you practiced on it... might be time to alter that section, cuz *that* ain't fun. It's important to challenge your skills... but it's brutal to put an element into the design that trys your patience. I kid you not, it gave me GREAT pleasure to rip THAT one up. :thumbsup:

btw... Russ.. That green car in your first video... Looks like one of the wheels is out of round. :freak:


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## resinmonger (Mar 5, 2008)

tjd241 said:


> btw... Russ.. That green car in your first video... Looks like one of the wheels is out of round. :freak:


Good catch Nuther Dave. I missed that. I guess I was distracted by the loose right rear body pin on the red car... :freak: :freak:


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

resinmonger said:


> In any case, I think flow is very much a function of the type of car you mostly run.


 I don't think it's just a matter of which type of car you drive. I think a number of factors come into play, especially when dealing with tight corners.

If your track is not wired for brakes (which mine is not), then the only way to ease into a turn is to back off the trigger. If using a T-Jet or AFX (no magnets to help slow you down), the amount of "coast" a car has can determine how far in advance of that curve you need to slow down, and this can vary from car to car if you don't tune every car the same. So those tight turns (like my 12-6-6-12) can be very frustrating because no two cars really take that curve the same way. Some cars can go through with some consistancy while others will deslot or spin-out more than half the time. Once you start to lose the back end, you're pretty much done.

I guess it's like the Tomy 3" hairpin curve. Some guys have little to no trouble while others wouldn't use it if it were free. Sometimes I read where some cars go through it while others will not. So when using such a piece, "flow" becomes difficult to define.

Does the track not flow because certain cars have a problem in certain locations? I guess if you're lucky enough that all of your cars of a certain type behave the same, then you can determine when your track has good flow. But when all your cars have their own little quirks, sometimes getting a good flow for all of them becomes impossible.

And this doesn't even take into account whether you have the proper controller for the layout you are driving.

Joe


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## Tsooko (Oct 15, 2009)

Hornet said:


> When you gonna get that CNC Router funtional Ted,there's a couple guys interested in it here too,besides Todd.:wave:
> Rick


Hey Rick
The cnc works great. I've cut out three of the Suzuka tracks so far and have sent one to Todd. I got one in the back of my van. I don't want to hijack this thread so if you are interested pm me please.
Cheers Ted


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## tossedman (Mar 19, 2006)

I've got a Suzuka and it's gonna have FLOW! Thanks Ted! :thumbsup:

Cheers eh!

Todd


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## ParkRNDL (Mar 20, 2002)

I am NOT a real knowledgeable source on this, but I really like this thread so I'll weigh in. I put a lot of thought into my layout when I ripped up the 2-lane and made it a 4-lane. A couple of things that stuck in my head, sorry if they're really obvious tenets of track design:

1. I like to have a couple of long straights connected by a relatively fast 180. My front straight is the whole usable length of the 16-foot table. It leads into a 12/15-inch 90-degree left hand curve, then a 9" straight, then a 9/12-inch 90-degree left hand curve, then another long straight that's over half the length of the table. The 12/15 slows you down just enough for the 9/12, and the one 9-inch straight between them doesn't leave you room to accelerate enough to get in trouble. I like having this big chunk of straights, especially at the beginning of the course; I feel like it makes for a good start for your lap. See 0:18 to 0:24 below.






2. If I'm gonna use a 6" curve, I want a 9" curve leading into it to slow me down. Decreasing radius curves should decrease gradually. Joe, when I read your post about the 12/6/6/12, my first thought was that it might work better if it could be reworked as a 12/9/6/9, or even a 12/9/6/6, though that might tempt you to get back into it too soon if it dumps out onto a long straight.

I have two 6-inch curves on my layout--one to the right and one to the left, separated by 13 inches of straight*. In both places, there's a 9-inch curve immediately before the 6-inch curve. At 1:26-1:27 in the above video, the cars first make a right at the car dealer, then a left around the white house. Both those curves are 12/9 into 9/6, though the first is 90 degrees total and the second is 180 total. I think it says something that my 5-year-old and my 8-year-old can navigate them pretty consistently on good attention span days. I'm not exactly sure WHAT it says, though... is it that I've created a layout with good flow, or is it just that my layout is too easy?

--rick

*Yes, 13 inches of straight track. Two 5s and a 3. I LOVE Atlas/Lionel track.


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## Tsooko (Oct 15, 2009)

Very nice track. I think it has enough of a challenge to it. 'kudos to your boys, they drive very well.:thumbsup:

Cheers Ted


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## Dslot (Sep 2, 2007)

> _Rick sez:_
> ... If I'm gonna use a 6" curve, I want a 9" curve leading into it ... when I read ... about the 12/6/6/12, my first thought was that it might work better if it could be reworked as a 12/9/6/9, ...
> 
> I have two 6-inch curves ... In both places, there's a 9-inch curve immediately before the 6-inch curve.


In tests I've run, cars can usually leadfoot through *a single* 45° 6" curve section without much danger. It's almost as if they are through it before the centrifugal force has time to spin them very far. You can go through a 9-6-9 almost as fast as a 9-9-9. But once you get two or more Sixes together, you have to sit up and take notice if you don't want to end up in the weeds.

What I run is mostly stock and mild-mod T-jets and JL Tuffs, with a few A/FX and AFX-Mags. Also, since I build small layouts with fairly short straights, I like to use reduced voltage - 12 or 16V. So I have no idea whether it's true for Uber-Mag light-benders at 18-22V.

-- D
p.s. -







Knockout video work, Rick. Where do you get the music files?


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## Rolls (Jan 1, 2010)

I agree, D. Lots of stuff you can get away with on a single 6" curve (45 degrees) will absolutely kill you if it's followed by another 6". I think it's even worse with a third, but a 4th 6" doesn't seem to aggravate the situation any more. I think it's a roll response time thing like you mentioned.


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## ParkRNDL (Mar 20, 2002)

Dslot said:


> p.s. -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


thanks man. short story on the music is it's from the Activision game Interstate '76, by a guy named Arion Salazar in a band called Bullmark. I could go ON and ON, since I love that music, but in order not to derail the thread too bad I'll send you here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arion_Salazar

http://www.discogs.com/artist/Bullmark

http://fongsongs.blogspot.com/2006/12/interstate-76-revisited.html

--rick


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Good flow has nothing to do with speed or difficulty, it simply means that the fact that you are riding in a guide slot becomes almost transparent. :thumbsup:


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Tsooka sent you a pm
Rick


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## smokinHOs (May 30, 2006)

*Sorry.. couldn't resist..*

Four terms come to mind...

Zone, groove, flow, rhythm... all of which I look for in a track and when I race.

Getting in the zone simply means that I am seeing the car much slower than it is really going. Therefore I remain in the slot and turn some consistent and fast laps... 

Rhythm is very apparent on some tracks.. at least is it to me. You can almost hum the track in your head like a song. It does not require a great deal of "pedaling" through various corners. More like a throw and catch in the corners. Run the car in, slow (brake), roll the car out and fly down the straights. As mentioned before, rhythm tracks have a very distinct trigger "rhythm". I used to be able to drive my old layout with my eyes closed listening to the car. 

Groove is just a state of mind... not quite the zone. Usual means the car is dialed in to the track, I am dialed into a Mich Ultra... Getting my groove on has nothing to do with being fast... LOL

and then there is flow... I too believe that tracks that lack flow, lack rhythm as well. Tracks that don't flow well is like watching an old godzilla episode. Everything is there, but something doesn't quite match up. Certain tracks have technical aspects that just interrupt my groove or zone.. LOL Sometimes it is a corner, or a section.. Typically I think it has more to do with an area of the track that fails to blend in with the rest of the track. It is usually an attempt to make a section harder, but tends to just be more of a pain in the rear...

Just my penny... 

-Marc and Marcus


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## Dyno Dom (May 26, 2007)

Dslot, Rolls & Smokin make points I agree with. My original Tomy layout
had a parabolic turn towards the backside of the track. There was a short angled straight leading into the 135 degree turn which consisted of 2-6" 1/8 R
& 1-9" 1/8 R on inside. The outer 4 lanes were 9 & 12 radius curves with one
15' R on outside.( lanes 5/6) This was the tightest turn on layout & made for hard braking on inside lanes. The majority of racers disliked the turn, but a few thought it was a unique feature for the track. I reconfigured the turn by 
replacing the angled straight w/an offset leading into a decreasing 180 degree
turn. The only 6" turns now were replaced & the track utilized a combination
of 9,12, 15 & 18" turns. IMHO, flow is a smoothness of controller trigger 
movement. My new layout uses 17,23 & 29" curves for increasing/decreasing
offsets and turns. A nice change of pace are lane switches for reversing direction. Each lane is independently controlled giving a different perspective when heats/races are run in opposite direction.


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## pshoe64 (Jun 10, 2008)

Perspective from the driver's station plays a role as well. I seen tracks with relatively easy turns but veer off 45 degrees from the driver's point of view. That adds time to the distance covered across the table, than if the track is 0 or 90 degrees from the driver's view. Eventually you get used to the rhythm, but that scenario has messed with my head in past races. Most every track I have visited are up the table and back, then 1/2 way and back, so you can get that swaying rhythm going. But you add that angled straight going away or coming toward you it breaks that rhythmic pattern. I enjoy having to adapt to those challenges, don't aways make it, but those are the tracks I remember visiting.

-Paul


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## Crimnick (May 28, 2006)

For me "flow" means "rhythm"...how good is the rhythm while running balls out...

I changed walker's glen around several times before I settled on the final lay out...

The infield was just too off putting from the rest of the track...small tight and twisty.....after running long straights...so I went with this instead:


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