# Differences between the NCC 1701 (refit) / NCC 1701-A



## fiercegaming (Jul 21, 2004)

I guess I have always been curious what the differences in the paint scheme are. I know they used the 7 ft model for movies one through six. The only thing is they had to paint battle damage on it for star trek 3, which means they must have repainted it for ST4-ST6. I am assuming it did not get a brand new paint job, rather just in the areas of the battle damage.


Green Debate (threads)
Time chronology of blue/green color switch?
Enterprise Engineer Green: Myth or Fact?

Enterprise Refit and A Photos
Cloudster Site
Enterprise A (close up shots)
Note: Starts on second page.


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## spe130 (Apr 13, 2004)

Search here, lots of info. It's been discussed round and round and round many times.


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## fiercegaming (Jul 21, 2004)

I am sure it has, I guess I could do a little research...thought someone might know off hand.


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## fiercegaming (Jul 21, 2004)

courtesy of cloudster

http://www.cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/STMPEnterprise/STMPent66.jpg
See the neck grills (not sure of the correct name) its dark here. Also here the neck is painted just white

http://www.cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/STMPEnterprise/ColorPhotos/cSTMPent17.jpg
not dark here on the grills. Here the neck is painted faint blue.

Just a difference I have found.


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## fiercegaming (Jul 21, 2004)

Can someone give the link to the other topics on this? I searched the forum and couldn't find much.


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

fiercegaming said:


> The only thing is they had to paint battle damage on it for star trek 3, which means they must have repainted it for ST4-ST6. I am assuming it did not get a brand new paint job, rather just in the areas of the battle damage.


in short, the battle damage for ST3 were decals, which seriously damaged the paint job beneath them when they were removed. the model was almost entirely repainted at that time. at some point after that, stresses on the models hull caused small cracks to appear in the paint so the paint was gone over once again. unless youre being extra-festideous, the main differences between the paint jobs is that the darker areas of the hull (deflector housing, the stongback between the nacelle wings) have a green tint to them on the original paint job, and a blue tint on the "A", and the original paint job is more pearlescent overall.

some physical details have changed from time to time as well, most noticably the 3 structures at the front of the secondary hull whee it connects to the deflector dish housing, and louvers added to the small recessed area at the bottom rear of the connecting dorsal neck between the 2 main hulls. there are others but those are the most apparent.

again there are other small differences, but thats it in breif. all of the differences have been kicked around on the forum in a great number of threads, so have fun digging.


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

The refit is 1701 and the A is 1701-A. Any other questions? :devil:


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## fiercegaming (Jul 21, 2004)

Thanks razorwye1, where did you hear that decals where used? Lloyd is that an attempted at saying there pretty much the same  or your not sure??


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

There are differences. I was being silly. It is alot of searching to see the difference. When I build my refit, it will be the 1701A. Photos of that version are all over the net.


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## fiercegaming (Jul 21, 2004)

Yeah thats very true. The pictures over at cloudster of the refit are in black and white. Oh well I will just have to see.


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

fiercegaming said:


> Thanks razorwye1, where did you hear that decals where used?


ive heard that from several sources. i think cinefex magazine was the first place i read it. 
the battle damage was peel-and-stick decals, the idea being that after the foilming of ST3, all they'd have to do is peel them off and the ship would be good to go again. however, they didnt bother trying to remove them until well into the making of ST4, and over time the decals had bonded to the paint, so when they went to peel them off, a lot of the paint came off with the stickers.


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

fiercegaming said:


> Yeah thats very true. The pictures over at cloudster of the refit are in black and white. Oh well I will just have to see.


well im sure the really fussy modelers would disagree, but when it comes down to it, the differences in the aztec pattern between the refit and the e-a are about negligable. the refit's coloration was far more pearlescent (in the lighter areas of the hull), but other than that, if you just go with greenish greys for the refit and a bluish grey for the e-a for the darker areas of the hull youre safe. 
(the pearlescence got toned down a lot during the making of ST2, because the ship was so reflective it made it hard to pull a clean matte shot of it.)
look for posts on the forum just prior to and just after the release of the polar lights model. everybody was gearing themselves up for its release so the topic was debated endlessly at that time


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## fiercegaming (Jul 21, 2004)

thanks again razorwyre1, you don't still have that article do you? It would be intresting to see. So the pearlescent got toned down in the making of star trek 2...I was going to say in the motion picture the ship looked rather shiny in some shots and images. I think I am going to go with the refits paint scheme and build up the refit. I am just in the planning stages right now...I still have that reliant to finish up, taken me awhile, just trying to profect somethings.


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## fiercegaming (Jul 21, 2004)

I have the directors cut of ST1 and behind the scenes of 1 and 2. I am sure it shows the model there--maybe I can see the color scheme from that. I will post pictures later.


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## Flux Chiller (May 2, 2005)

decals for battle damage? Seems crazy. They certainly don't look like decals as there is depth to the damage! And why bother when you are blowing up the ship at the end of the film. The idea to resurrect the Enterprise only came late in the day of ST4 production as far as I can remember, intention was for them to use the Excelsior.
When they turned the Excelsior into the Ent B they didn;t worry about being able to convert it back again. In the motion picture industry, you live for the moment and let someone else worry down the line.


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

Flux Chiller said:


> decals for battle damage? Seems crazy. They certainly don't look like decals as there is depth to the damage! And why bother when you are blowing up the ship at the end of the film. The idea to resurrect the Enterprise only came late in the day of ST4 production as far as I can remember, intention was for them to use the Excelsior.
> When they turned the Excelsior into the Ent B they didn;t worry about being able to convert it back again. In the motion picture industry, you live for the moment and let someone else worry down the line.


not always. the original refit model cost a small fortune, far more than a typical model of its size, and way more then the excelsior. (the budget for st:tmp was pretty much carte blance, and the modelmakers went berserk on it. get the cinefex and cfq issues on st:tmp and st2 for more about that) they knew they would want to use the model again, even if it wasnt appearing as the enterprise, and wanted to minimize the amount of repaint and repair work that would be needed. alas that backfired on them and the model neded a complete repaint. (remember they didnt actualy blow up the hero model for the explosion either..... nor was it one of the things up for grabs at the recent sothaby's auction, although the hero of the e-d was and the e-d hero model was also far more expensive and built to last in ways that your typical spfx filming model simply doesnt get.)

a side note: the guys at ilm hated the refit model because of its enormous weight. while a couple of guys could lift the largest millenium falcon filming model onto its mount for shooting, the refit required a forklift. 

perhaps the term "stickers" and "decals" is being used loosely... a 3 dimensional decal, while being more like a prosthetic appliance in spfx makeup, is still a decal. (i dont know this one way or or the other.. just speculating.) no matter what, the fact is that it was all superficial and intended to be removed easily, but it didnt work out that way.

i still have the magazine, but its buried deep in my storage unit. your best bet would be to order the back issue on star trek 4. there are other guys on this forum with a far more extensive knowledge of the history of the refit model than i have.


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## Flux Chiller (May 2, 2005)

razorwyre1 said:


> perhaps the term "stickers" and "decals" is being used loosely... a 3 dimensional decal, while being more like a prosthetic appliance in spfx makeup, is still a decal. (i dont know this one way or or the other.. just speculating.) no matter what, the fact is that it was all superficial and intended to be removed easily, but it didnt work out that way.


Yes, I can live with that explanation....

The fact that the model falls apart in storage, gets left under leaky ducts, all that sort of thing, they never really looked after it properly IMHO, despite the model makers' intentions on each project perhaps...the missing/broken impulse grilles at the Christie's sale didn't give a very good impression. Wouldn't it be nice,if it actually ended up in safe hands?


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## Flux Chiller (May 2, 2005)

By the way, the hero model was most certainly sold at the Christies auction, hence the masses of close up photos of it doing the rounds at the time (Oct 2006)


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## fiercegaming (Jul 21, 2004)

Flux I am fairly certain the model was not destroyed at the end of three (the physical model that is). Decals does seem odd--I am still alittle skeptical about that. Razor had an article that I would like to see. It looked to me that they painted the battle damage on there, but now since razor told me about the decals it does make sense. It was true that they didn't believe there would be another film after that. I think they just wanted to reserve the history if you know what I mean.


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## Treadwell (Aug 22, 2002)

Another by the way: the Excelsior changes were made to be temporary. Read it Cinefex or something like that. I don't think they were ever removed as it turned out, though.


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

Flux Chiller said:


> By the way, the hero model was most certainly sold at the Christies auction, hence the masses of close up photos of it doing the rounds at the time (Oct 2006)


the photos you saw from the auction were of one of the long shot models (actually an amt/ertl model kit built up!) NOT the hero. (if you read the caption it describes it as being 22 inches long.) 
http://www.startrek.com/startrek/galleryview?id=16835&count=0&ads=1&clicks=7&episodeid=0&expanded=true
if im wrong about that (but im pretty sure i'm not), please direct me to the links. at that time, the big sale at the auction was for the hero e-d. 
the model(s) used to depict the destruction of the enterprise were smaller plastic copies. the one larger duplicate section that was used was created for the shot of the hull under the registry number disintegrating. 
as an interesting bit of trivia, another duplicate section, much larger than the hero, was made for the shot in st2 of the torpedo bay getting cut open by the reliants phasers. it was made of wax, and a soldering iron was used to cut the gash in it via stop motion animation. 
btw, the e-a hero was quite nicely taken care of when not in use. it had its own special dust cover with embroidered starfleet arrowheads, a special storage mounting bracket and crate. they didnt just leave it laying around.
also by the time st3 was made, paramount knew they had a franchise and had learned the lesson that being economical was to their advantage, so im sure that they knew that even though the models role as enterprise supposedly at its end, that it would reappear as other ships later.


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## fiercegaming (Jul 21, 2004)

What a joke selling a amt build up for $15,000-25,000...its not even the real thing, wow how sly is that. It says a modified plastic hobby kit. 

By the way is there any color photos of the studio model ncc 1701 refit? Just wondering.


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

fiercegaming said:


> What a joke selling a amt build up for $15,000-25,000...its not even the real thing, wow how sly is that. It says a modified plastic hobby kit.
> 
> By the way is there any color photos of the studio model ncc 1701 refit? Just wondering.


theres bunches of color photos of it, you just have to do some digging. go back in the forum to the time when polar was gearing up to release the refit and you'll find links-a-plenty for photos.

and well, as it was a model that was used on camera as the enterprise, it IS the real thing, just not the biggest and best version of the real thing.. and dont forget, this is a fully lit build up by i.l.m.'s model shop, which is going to make it worth a pretty penny in and of itself.


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## fiercegaming (Jul 21, 2004)

Oh I didn't realize, I thought that 22" model was just made with a hobby kit and not from I.L.M. lol I guess the price makes sense now, I feel stupid. I guess they used it for probably some further away shots?


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## Treadwell (Aug 22, 2002)

Guys, there was indeed a smaller ILM refit model sold at the Christie's auction (not Sotheby's)...

...BUT SO WAS THE EIGHT FOOTER. A kajillion pics were posted of it. Went for $240,000.


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## fiercegaming (Jul 21, 2004)

Thanks for the insight trendwell. Razor I looked for some color photo's of the refit here on the forums for a good hour and couldn't find much. Does anyone remember the name of the thread I looked in the long 14 page painting and finishing thread and didn't find to much. Could someone point me in the right direction?


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## PixelMagic (Aug 25, 2004)

I would love to see these auction pictures, but they don't appear to be up ANYWHERE anymore.


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

holy moley! treadwell, i stand corrected. they did sell it!!!!!!!!! (those heathans!)

http://trekmovie.com/2006/10/07/enterprise-d-model-sells-for-500/

i like the fact that christies expected 1/10th of that..... who did their estimates? did that person ever look at what props go for on the internet auctions?


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## fiercegaming (Jul 21, 2004)

A ship of that quality and craftsmanship doesn't belong anywhere but a museum. I wish they would have put it in a Trek Museum. I hope she is in good hands, although for that price, I would probably go overboard to protect it.


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

i dunno, if i'd have paid 1/4 million for it, you bet it'd be well taken care of, and one of my first calls would have been to mr. paul olsen (who did its paint job for st:tmp) to arrange for a restoration of its original paint job. (hey if youve got that kind of $ to pay for the model, youve got enough $ to hire olsen to restore it!)


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## hell_fighter_8 (Oct 4, 2005)

*Links*

Auction Pictures
http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=160502&highlight=refit

Enterprise Engineering Green: Myth or fact
http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=163787&highlight=refit


Does anybody know if the bridge area was origanly green as well? To me it looks as if it could be and the A looks more detailed in that area then the refit, could just be the lighting though.

Also, how was the motion picture filmed? Did they use blue screens? My thinking is if they did they it would make sense that it was all done in green and then change to blue because of a shift to using green screens. Make sense to me but I'm just guessing. What do you guys think?


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

ok the auction pics linked to the forum thread you have linked to is down, at least at the moment.

the matte screen was blue for st:tmp and st2. (didnt green screen come along when most matte shots were done with computer rather than an optical printer?)

please lets not start the "was it green or was it blue?" debate again. that issue was bashed around ad nauseum. there are some doubters, but most tend to believe that the colors of those sections were indeed green until the repaint that converted the model into the e-a. 
its funny how things get into peoples heads sometimes. i had a debate with a very adamant fellow one time that INSISTED that godzilla always was and always had been green. in reality the godzilla suits were dark grey [the tone of the gray varied from dark medium to near black]. he was quite insistant, and he was also quite wrong. i had just finished a ton of research into the character, but this guy had it in his head that it was green and simply wouldnt listen, or believe what his eyes were saying. i think that same phenomenon is where a lot of the debate about the enterprise's color comes from.


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## DL Matthys (May 8, 2004)

As we enter the second decade of this comparison debate...
3rd page of dead horse kickin' I see.

DLM


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## fiercegaming (Jul 21, 2004)

Isn't it great .


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## Treadwell (Aug 22, 2002)

razorwyre1 said:


> holy moley! treadwell, i stand corrected. they did sell it!!!!!!!!! (those heathans!)
> 
> http://trekmovie.com/2006/10/07/enterprise-d-model-sells-for-500/
> 
> i like the fact that christies expected 1/10th of that..... who did their estimates? did that person ever look at what props go for on the internet auctions?


Thanks for that link! Some info there that I hadn't seen before. Most of the ships are staying in the States, but Voyager and Excelsior (Lakota) are off to Europe.

The Klingon BOP sold for more than the E-A. Neat ship, but more than the E? The hell?


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## fiercegaming (Jul 21, 2004)

I am not sure but the auction pictures are clearly blueish, and the model on the flikor site is clearly green. Here is some comparisons:




















Maybe I am just bored, but I compared these two images and I don't think the federation logo ring was repainted. I just don't get how the E-A could be blue and green, was it repainted later on?


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## Flux Chiller (May 2, 2005)

Don't trust those 'green' photos of the E-A. They have a colour shift there for some reason. The middle set with the blues is correct. Again, discussed to death elsewhere.

Raze, sorry you didn't know about the hero model sale. I was disappointed too (and apologies but the thing was pretty beaten up, not looked after at all). The detailed pics were here for several weeks, but are unavailable on any site at present. Let's hope someone treats it well.


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

it was changed from green to blue when it was repainted for st4, and it was later repainted at least once.
flux, i just keep hoping that is was paul allen that got it. i mean, hes certainly rich enough, and has a museum so we can all worship.. er,um.. enjoy them.


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## hell_fighter_8 (Oct 4, 2005)

I need to re-phrase my question as I was not looking to start a debate.

For those who did their refit in green, did you do the bridge and impulse crystal areas in green also or stay with blues?


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## Krako (Jun 6, 2003)

While the deflector, strongback, dorsal and pylon "blowaway' panels were shades of 'engineering green' for the first three pictures, the bluish gray shades for the bridge, B& C decks, impulse crystal, nacelle fronts and pylon forward edges were the same throughout all the various paint jobs of the refit. In fact, you can make out the blue-gray shades on these areas in TMP stills and publicity shots. 

At least, that is what has been shared here before.... many times...


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## DX-SFX (Jan 24, 2004)

The shots of the one showing a green hue were apparently taken with flash which generally gives an accurate rendition of the colour. If there was some colour filtration going on to change the blue to green, the other blue hues would be altered too. I wouldn't be that quick to write off the green colour.


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## Flux Chiller (May 2, 2005)

DX-SFX said:


> If there was some colour filtration going on to change the blue to green, the other blue hues would be altered too.


Agreed, and they have been.... check the deflector. Also, the photon exhaust seems to look a bit weird.


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## fiercegaming (Jul 21, 2004)

I guess the world may never know. Has anyone tried to contact the painters? I emailed Phil over at cloudster to see if he remembered, after all he did take pictures of the refit after TMP. I doubt I will get a reply.


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## mechinyun (Feb 23, 2004)

cool brb


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## Treadwell (Aug 22, 2002)

Note that the pattern is different. Proof of repaint. (if not of color debate)


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## mechinyun (Feb 23, 2004)

Treadwell, I was going to post a very similar comparison right when you did. I would have still but I cant remember how to post a pic from a outside link  You are right in the money though.

Anyhow, the picture with the green. I dont think its a color problem, I think its the real enterprise with green. Its definately not the original paint scheme from TMP though. Here is my theory. That is the TWOK first repaint by ILM. Keeps the green from TMP, with less detailed strong back, dull coat. Her next repaint is for Star Trek 4 with the intro of the Alpha and shes goes blue.


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## fiercegaming (Jul 21, 2004)

Yeah when I compared that picture I noticed one was the refit and one was the A and there is a different paint job on one. Does anyone know when those flicker pictures where taken?


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## Flux Chiller (May 2, 2005)

2001. And notice the A on the dish in one of the photos. Also, notice that there are missing red saucer separation lines across the blue vertical bar on the dorsal (the lines got covered over in the respray). 

then check this shot from prior the repaint( ST2, maybe ST3 which we know because of the position of the damage), and the red lines are still present. Conclusion, it is not TWOK version on the flickr site as it has been repainted by this point.

http://www.st-bilder.de/datein/bilder/Modelle/Constitution/V2/gallery/B_MODELL_CON_271.jpg


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

fiercegaming said:


> I guess the world may never know. Has anyone tried to contact the painters? I emailed Phil over at cloudster to see if he remembered, after all he did take pictures of the refit after TMP. I doubt I will get a reply.


yes. mr paul olsen who painted the ship for TMP (however he did NOT paint the areas in question, just the pearlescent white aztec parts) was contacted by several members of this forum (self included) at the time that the PL kit was about to be released, and he was quite graceous with responses, advice and information. however he doesnt remember a whole lot about it and has no personal pictures of the paint work (except for one taken while he was working on it, where the model is mostly covered with paper.) 
what he does remember is that he painted the aztek pattern with metalflake brand "flip-flop" laquers, which were new at the time and now cost about $35 per pint (available from speciality automotive paint suppliers). his reccolection about the parts in question is that they were greenish, and painted with model railroad paints. he has added some notes about the enterprise paint job to his website because of all the emails he was getting on the subject.
he also reminds us that the ship took him a couple of months to paint working 8 to 10 hour days, 6 days a week, so that any kit where a couple of huors a day is put into it with take a very very very long time to paint properly.


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## fiercegaming (Jul 21, 2004)

Who is the one that painted the strongback? Wasn't it Ray (forget his last name), has anyone contacted him at all? Paul thinks he remembers it was green though?



Flux Chiller said:


> 2001. And notice the A on the dish in one of the photos. Also, notice that there are missing red saucer separation lines across the blue vertical bar on the dorsal (the lines got covered over in the respray).
> 
> then check this shot from prior the repaint( ST2, maybe ST3 which we know because of the position of the damage), and the red lines are still present. Conclusion, it is not TWOK version on the flickr site as it has been repainted by this point.
> 
> http://www.st-bilder.de/datein/bilder/Modelle/Constitution/V2/gallery/B_MODELL_CON_271.jpg


Yeah one would think it would have had its repaint already since it is the A on those pictures and there are differences. So that green where seeing on those must be wrong some how?


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## Treadwell (Aug 22, 2002)

Another repaint in its history:

The guys who did the effects for STV complained (in Cinefex, Starlog, something like that) that when they uncrated the ship they were dismayed to find that an entire side had been painted a solid white. A repaint hadn't been planned budgetwise or timewise so it was a setback. I think they were under the impression that ILM had done it for the closing shot of STIV, but I read elsewhere that this repaint was due to the model being used for bluescreen shots made on videotape for the Universal attraction. The people doing that had trouble with spill, and in typical "let the next guy worry about it" fashion, slapped on their own coat with no fine detail whatsoever.


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## fiercegaming (Jul 21, 2004)

So when they opened the crate for ST5 they noticed one side was plain white, this should have been fixed though before 5 correct? So your saying after the ST4 shot at the end of the movie they then used it for that universal attraction and they had a hard time bluescreening so they painted one whole side white? Is that clear? What a bad deal for ST5.


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## fiercegaming (Jul 21, 2004)

my email from paul below.


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## fiercegaming (Jul 21, 2004)

Here is what paul wrote back to me. I emailed him last night.




Thank you for your kind words, I really appreciate them.


The engineering section was painted with Floquil railroad modeler's
paint...it was a sage green and was a flat paint, and it was straight
from the bottle and not mixed...so if you could find a sage green that
that they make, that would be it.

The real trick would be the pearlescent paints I used...they had only
just come out, were horrendously expensive ($45 for a 4oz jar). The best
thing I can tell you about that is to put you onto a German lawyer who
is doing the same model, and with typical German thoroughness, has
researched this to death...he can help you regarding what is available
out there. I used four pearl colors that were transparent: a blue, a
gold, a red, and a green...they all flip-flopped to their complements
when the viewing angle changed. Beautiful. By varying the amount of
color, and the mixture of several colors on top of each other, I
obtained myriad colors and depth of color. Just spray lightly and keep
adding...you don't want any drips. The trick with airbrushing is to
spray ever so lightly, then keep on adding color. Cut yourself lots of
stencils (friskets) of all different rectangular and square shapes
(except for the curved shapes on the dish) and apply them in a random
order and keep building them up. What you are doing is giving the ship
scale by having it made from "panels" that we understand as such...like
the engine nacelles of a commercial jet and the body panels.ddddd

The man's name is Dariush and his email is: (ask me) I know
he would be more than happy to help you and probably give you more
information than you will ever need. He's a nice guy, though.

I used a Paasche A-1 airbrush...the Chevy of airbrushes, but it worked
fine. I still have it, though I now use Iwata's when I paint. Any
airbrush will do because you will using lacquer paints that self-clean
as the thinner is also the solvent.

Good luck! Be sure to contact Dariush...he will be the expert on the
Polar Lights model!


all the best,


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## Bay7 (Nov 8, 1999)

http://fesarius.hp.infoseek.co.jp/index2.htm

Lists some of the differences in the gallery second from the end in the top menu.

Mike


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## Flux Chiller (May 2, 2005)

Hoorah for Iwaata, and lacquer paints! If it was auto stuff it is just being banned by the EU over here (just an aside that comment)

Appreciate the posting of that email, fierceg.

Fesarius's site is utterly bonkers. Quite amazing the lengths some guys will go to. Awaiting new updates there though...


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## fiercegaming (Jul 21, 2004)

No problem flux. Paul did end up saying the strongback was painted sage pale green so its official. He gave some good information, if you have not read it...check it out.


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## fiercegaming (Jul 21, 2004)

*What green though?*

Paul Olsen told me the green was a sage green from the Rail Road paints from floquil, however which one would best fit...there are a couple pale sage looking colors. What do you guys think. Link below.

http://www.testors.com/tes_cds/color_charts/110000_Floquil%20RR%20(Enamel).pdf


just thought I'd through this in here


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