# Making front tires harder for handling.... 101



## Ovalhead (Nov 20, 2010)

*All Points Bulletin​*
Hey guy's, if you don't mind sharing, what technique do y'all use to harden your fronts, if this is part of your set-up for getting faster through the corners with better handling during a racing event I would love to know. 

Right now, I'm dropping around 2-3 drops of finger nail hardener on small piece of glass and slowly rolling the fronts through them until they are covered evenly around. Two light coats mainly to help keep them round. Do they make rock hard independent fronts ? 

I got some racing to do against some stout competition and I need all the help I can find.

Thanks for your time, Cliff


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## bearsox (Apr 22, 2006)

*Hi Cliff , 
it would help to know what your racing chassis wise and class ? That said BSRT made a harder replacement rubber called NEO rubber . It was a kind of off white and fit and ran well on Wizz fronts for TJETS . So if you were looking for something to use on them ...there ya go ! They can work on the intended Mag cars obviously too so look into that as an option .

Bear :wave:
*


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## Ovalhead (Nov 20, 2010)

Thanks Bear, the chassis are Wiz & BSRT Super Stockers & 3 ohm Mod.'s with independents. I felt a couple of the guys front tires that I race against and their front tires felt like rock. I was wondering what they were doing before our next event.

I have hard tire already, just trying to find a tenth.... you know. Again thanks, Cliff


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Try a soft tire instead.
I've never made a rock hard front tire run as fast as a soft tire,even on Neo cars.
You want alittle give to the front tire to keep the shoes in contact with the rails better.
A hard tire throws the front end in the air anytime it hits something,while a soft tire will absorb some of the initial bump shock,and won't pitch the front of the car in the air.
Just another option to try if you're looking for another Hundredth,tenths are god awful hard to come by if your close on the set-up to start with:thumbsup:
Rick


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## mahorsc (Mar 26, 2008)

and besure car is flat all tires touching 
and from back of car sitting on flat block (i use tech block) raise the frt of car from backby pushing down so front tires raise up thet need to come up at same time if not the car will try to tri-cylce in the corners and tip out


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## Ovalhead (Nov 20, 2010)

Good tips guy's . Thanks


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## slotking (May 27, 2008)

here what I found

hard front tire = more speed, less grab

soft front tires = more grab, less rear end swing, also better on sectional track (absorbs bumps better)

other factors are independent fronts vs non-independent fronts


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## Ovalhead (Nov 20, 2010)

These are independent fronts but what's the setup on the nons Mike ? You know the more I think about it, it seems like the hard nons should work better in a corner.......

Positive traction does not like to turn without binding something or stagger to compensate for a given radius. Non-independents are positive traction and seems they would make a corner better with harder tires to help keep the chassis free.

I need to roll the window down and get some air. Then do some actual testing.

My best thinking is what got me here, thanks for your patience on this matter guys. Cliff


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

The tire is your only suspension on a slotcar.
Friction in a corner from the front tires is nill on an independent front axle.
A solid axle is another animal,when it comes to tire friction in a corner
You need the tire to give a bit in the corner if it hits a bump.
A minor bump upwards to the chassis in a corner when you're on the ragged edge of control,will de-slot the car, if it's on hard tires are my experiences
Guys claim tire roll over with soft tires,but that one is a bit out there if you ask me,the guide-pin prevents tire rollover in a corner

Go to your next race set-up with both styles of tires,is your best bet.
Small faucet washers make pretty decent soft front tires.
Room temp also plays into your tire set-ups,a cold room will make a soft tire seem harder,so keep that in mind

You hit the nail on the head with the comment do some testing,that's your best bet,as what works for one guy,might not work for you,everybody drives differant,finding what works for your driving style is the best thing you can do
Rick


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## slotking (May 27, 2008)

yep, car and driving style make a difference.

I will skip the "non", so
I have had cars that were tail happy, and made them more drivable by using soft tired, solid fronts!


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## Ovalhead (Nov 20, 2010)

Thanks a heap fellows ! I understand fixed front ends a little better now. Now let's see if the Difalco understands ? Happy Motoring.................

Cliff


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

You probably already know this,but Wizzards stock Storm front-ends use a narrow soft tire on a non-independent axle,if you're looking at trying a non-independent axle.
They use a hollow tire,usually in the .355 size range +/- a little.
They are true-able if you pay attention to how you mount them on a tire truing jig.
The tires are also relatively light for a front tire.

Depending on how hardcore you want to get,and how ambitious you are,there is some speed to be gained by lightening the rotating drivetrain components.
Gears and hubs can be scalloped and drilled to lighten them and used along with hollow axles,usually will gain you a bit,maybe not a tenth,but a couple hundredth's though
Rick


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## Ovalhead (Nov 20, 2010)

Rick, I have converted most of my racing chassis to independents. It's my understanding the clear Wizzards fronts are the hardest and that I don't need to harden them any more than that. 
I have not checked with my durometer yet but it came from a good source.

I have some clears in stock and will give them a try this weekend.

The track were racing this weekend is a 6-lane 6x20 super smooth TKO. I will have a few hours to practice before Tech. Maybe I will be able to notice something then ? If I had my rathers, I would like to be able to mount a set of stock racing tires and roll. 

I would hate to know that after 42 years of karting that I am back to doctoring tires, you know what I mean ? That's one of the reasons I like racing asphalt, Don't get caught messing with your tires or we will see you next year or $1000.00 which ever comes first. Karting on dirt is a blast but a tire nightmare, same as with the late models. 

After all the support I have received on this front tire issue and learning more than I thought, I'm staying with racing stock tires on the front. Thanks for helping me uncomplicate this. It was interesting though. Again thanks, Cliff


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Wizz's clear fronts are a urethane tire,they are hard,lol:thumbsup:

About the only thing harder is a wagon wheel,lol.

If you've got a pile of patience,and an extra set of fingerprints,you can sand them narrower to get a little less contact patch:thumbsup:


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## smokinHOs (May 30, 2006)

*Tires..*

I would only add that tire "patch" makes a difference too. It you run a gasket style front tire the patch is dead center and small. If you run a standard "flat donut" for lack of a better term on an independent front end you have narrow and wide. You can also set them up on edge, typically outside. I do this with my Tjets. Very little tire touches the track. 

Also take a look at the spacing from your hub to the chassis. Any travel? Or do you use washer to get spacing right and front end shift to a minimum?

Good questions and good answers. BTW- practice your gutters. 

Oh yeah.. and asphalt karting all the way. 103rd street WKA Jacksonville Complex, roadcourse.. Most fun I have had with my clothes on.. minus slot car racing of course.. 

-marc and marcus


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## slotking (May 27, 2008)

oval

do you manly run magnet cars or t-jets

because the silcone sponge tires provide a good amount of grip, rear we often so not need need a lot front tire drag, so for t-jets many use o-rings, and for mag cars, its 1 of the very hard tires.

on a routed track, very hard is cool

on plastic, I like bump absorption softer tires provide.

BUT

driving style and car characteristics are key


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## Ovalhead (Nov 20, 2010)

Mike, I have been running all mag chassis since I returned back to HO 1n "09" w/ the exception of " Wizzard's Brass Thunderstorms ". I ran T-Jets from 1966 - 73. I like the Fray style cars but just don't have the time these days. I'm blessed with a full plate.

The replies I have received are more or less my new rule of thumb. Again thanks guys !

Cliff


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## slotking (May 27, 2008)

cool

on the brass cars I like the solid axle with soft tires
on the full mag car, generally independent fronts, found no real differences on the front tires, unless it a bumpy track, and the softer tires seem to work better.

the fray cars are fun! and yes, they take a lot of time


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## bearsox (Apr 22, 2006)

slotking said:


> cool
> 
> on the brass cars I like the solid axle with soft tires
> on the full mag car, generally independent fronts, found no real differences on the front tires, unless it a bumpy track, and the softer tires seem to work better.
> ...


*I'm with ya on the softer tires for bumpy tracks Mike and another idea for TJETS anyway is to use a TYCO or similar independent front for some home tracks . WHY ?... is because the axle hole is large enough to allow the smaller axle to float some . This would allow the car a small mock suspension. Helps also not to have rock tires LOL ! 

Bear :wave: *


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

*Tight aint necessarily right*

I agree with both Rick and Bear. "Flintstones" may not be the ticket. 

Ya often hear folks say that their favorite or best running car is a sloppy well worn old nag as if they are surprised....but its something I took to heart years ago. 

I believe that allowing the "balance and blueprint" mentality to run amok in "set-ups" frequently creates tunnel vision and often leaves folks with setups in the "Rigid-ville" neighborhood.

A softer tire and a lil' give up front is often just what the Dr. ordered.


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## Ovalhead (Nov 20, 2010)

On plastic sectional track I agree with y'all. I'm as you know, trying to learn from y'all.

But to be honest, what made me ask this question to start with was the results after running on a super smooth fast routed track. They all told me this track loves hards up front, that's all. 

BTW All my race cars have independents.

I decided not to doctor my tires in slots and the stock racing tires will be just fine for me. Y'alls advice is what I needed to keep it simple enough.

I thank all of you for sharing your experience tuning front ends.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Years !

Cliff, Sam & Crew


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## bearsox (Apr 22, 2006)

*Hi Cliff ,
i think if there were to be a spot for a harder ( not rock ) tire it would be as ya say a super smooth routed track . Ideally the track would have as few seams as possible as well to limit even the slightest bump chances. The next thing i personally think may help would be to run a radius cut tire VS a squared edge. This would limit edging and increase speed IMHO .

Bear :wave: 
*


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## slotking (May 27, 2008)

> axle hole is large enough to allow the smaller axle to float some


:thumbsup::thumbsup:

been doing that 4 years!
I have some fray cars that are tight, and some that sloppy.

if you have a tight car (pancake or inline) and hit a bump, that bump affect the complete chassis. if you have some give or separate bulk heads, the shock of the bump is dissipated.


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## Ovalhead (Nov 20, 2010)

:wave: Guys, do you use a reamer or re-drill slightly larger. I know there are limits in the rule books of some clubs.

I suppose UFHORA and HOPRA rules would be what I would use as the limit if they are the same ???

But I would like to concentrate on this dynamic shock absorbing tip. I try to keep everything freed up for flex and such. 

Just sounds to me that something like this would help my handling ? I would rather have a better handling car than the fastest car most any day. 

Just want to push the limits a little harder to lower the lap times. 

I have not touched my cars in a week. Now the fever is rising and some slot projects are on hand. The Nikon is back home also. 

Let's see, I got some Mega / Wizzard brush work to do, shock work and bodies to paint. 

Now back to reading what Rick, Mike & the gang have discovered in their adjustable barrel R&D.


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Chuck an old axle in your Dremel and turn it on low,and very carefully and lightly run the axle in the chassis.
Go slow,and take your time,as an axle in a Dremel can really fubar a chassis if you're in a hurry.
But other then natural wear and tear,it's one of your best bets to loosen up the axle hole while burnishing it.
Another tip,is to use a 17G hollow axle in your SS's,it measures out at roughly .058" and frees up a few horsepower:thumbsup:
Somebody posted this awhile ago,and they're a bargain as far as axles go.
Although they taken quite a jump in price lately,they're still a bargain.
I converted my slower stuff over to these axles and so far haven't bent one.
My slower stuff are slightly tweaked Mega G's etc.,and i like the way the .058 hollow axle works in them:thumbsup:


http://www.amazonsupply.com/dp/B000FN0VGU/ref=sp_dp_g2c_asin

Rick


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## Ovalhead (Nov 20, 2010)

Hornet said:


> Chuck an old axle in your Dremel and turn it on low,and very carefully and lightly run the axle in the chassis.
> Go slow,and take your time,as an axle in a Dremel can really fubar a chassis if you're in a hurry.
> But other then natural wear and tear,it's one of your best bets to loosen up the axle hole while burnishing it.
> Another tip,is to use a 17G hollow axle in your SS's,it measures out at roughly .058" and frees up a few horsepower:thumbsup:
> ...


Your right, cheaper than I thought... :thumbsup:


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## slotking (May 27, 2008)

mainly with t-jets, I have axles that do not turn freely.

I simply rotate the axle in a wide arc, that compresses the hole bigger and I am off & driving!

but note, running a cat on a routed track is different.
a very tight car can be very beneficial

with mt slottech thunder cats, I change the clips to add more tension( making the chassis have less flex)

my fray cars are much tighter as well.


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Cliff if your rules allow it,sanding your chassis's can be very beneficial.
It'll allow you to drop the mags closer to the rails if you use a corrospondingly lower tire.
The Mega G's really benefit if you get them lower.
They're probably the easiest chassis on the market to sand,as you can do it with very little disassembly.
Just leave enough meat to hold the mags in, on whatever you're sanding.

A piece of plate glass,with a chunk of sandpaper stuck to it,makes a good chassis sanding block.
Sand in a figure 8 motion,that's the best way i've found to sand them.

A Mega G is harder then crap,and i used 80 grit to make my initial sand,then followed it up with 220 grit wet/dry.
But most other chassis are sand-able with just the 220.
The Mega G has a pile of glass in it's plastic mix by the way it sands,as it's hard to sand,and will almost polish to a glass finish with just 220,so be patient sanding one of them.:thumbsup:

If you're stuck using the stock hard bodies on anything,a ball or mill bit in a Dremel can be used to lighten a hardbody.
The 1.5 Mega's body clip can be glued into the body a bit higher up in the chassis,if you open up the notches on the inside of the body.
This'll drop the body lower,and if you cut the center out of the clip after it's glued in place,you loose a fair bit of weight off the top of the body,lowering the cars center of gravity.
If looks aren't all that important,you can drop the GT40 bodies down to where you'll have to clearance the wheelwells and sand the lower edges of the body to gain track clearance,but it'll really wake up the handling of your 1.5's
Usually most hardbodies will benefit from some body float,that entails a little trimming of the mounting tabs,and if you're doing it on the F1 bodies on a Mega G,you'll have to clearance the inside of the body slightly to give it some room to float
Rick


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## slotking (May 27, 2008)

hand snding!!
are u nuts! a nice belt sander with 8 grit paper!
it can also trim your nails!:freak::tongue::tongue:

sand till everything is flat (get jig wheels if u can)
then remove the mags, and sand a bit more. maybe 2k


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

LOL:What Mike says too:thumbsup:.

Another old set-up trick is to use narrow pieces of newsprint to slide under the car between it and the rails.
A piece of newspaper is roughly 2 to 3 thous thick,and it helps get your initial tire set-up close,the newspaper should slide out from between the chassis and rails with just the slightest bit of drag.
Then you can use a white sharpie/paint pen to mark the bottom of the chassis to check the wear pattern when you get to the track.
If you're new to the group,it's always wise to check with the track's owner if it's okay to paint the bottom of your car before doing it,some guys with fancy routed tracks might not care for fresh paint on their rails,but you can still usually use the newspaper trick,most track owners won't object to a piece of newspaper being used to aid in tire set-up
And use your ears,they're your best set-up and tuning tool going.
Listen to the car and what it's telling you,if it's noisy and seems inconsistent odds are it's a touch low,if the car is dead silent,but crashes lots,it can probably come down slightly on tire size
Rick


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## Ovalhead (Nov 20, 2010)

Good Stuff


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