# No new figure kits reason



## BatToys (Feb 4, 2002)

My neighbor told me a new reason big model companies shy away from figure kits aside from expensive molds is the royalties want to be paid upfront.
So if they say they can sell x number of kits, they have to pay all the royalties first instead of after the kit sells.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Isn't that the way it works for any licensed property?


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## Dave Metzner (Jan 1, 1970)

Every license of any size regardless of cars, sci-fi movie subjects or figure kits that we did involved a guaranteed amount and a partial payment UP FRONT.
In almost every case the licensor would not furnish any reference materials until the license agreement had been signed sealed and the check received for the front money.

This was not just the case with figure kits, it was pretty much universal for every licensed property.

The reason that the big guys won't do figures is that they cannot sell sufficient volumes to pay their overhead and return a profit.

RC-2 wants to see prospective sales in the 50-60000 unit range before they'll invest in development of a new kit. (Revell wants to see similar numbers).

A REAL GOOD figure kit might sell 20 - 30000 units over a three year period, and the average is well short of 30000.

Forget figure kits - except for military miniatures from the big model companies they can't make money doing figures and licensing is only a contributing factor NOT the cause.


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## Roy Kirchoff (Jan 1, 1970)

Shitake!


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## MightyMax (Jan 21, 2000)

You want to talk royalties. The companies like Chevy, Ford, etc all get a licensing fee.
Sci-Fi and movie/TV tie ins always have a fee attached. Now here comes some stuff.
Companies like Boeing now want or are trying to extort a licensing fee for military kits such as the B-17. Now mind you that most military hardware has been designed bought and paid for with your tax dollar. So instead of being public domain they want greenbacks. I only glossed over this issue. If you go over to the IPMS USA website I am sure you can find it there. I know there is something in the forums about it but you must be a IPMS member to access them.

Cheers,
Max Bryant

Cheers,
Max Bryant


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

MightyMax said:


> You want to talk royalties. The companies like Chevy, Ford, etc all get a licensing fee.
> Sci-Fi and movie/TV tie ins always have a fee attached. Now here comes some stuff.
> Companies like Boeing now want or are trying to extort a licensing fee for military kits such as the B-17. Now mind you that most military hardware has been designed bought and paid for with your tax dollar. So instead of being public domain they want greenbacks. I only glossed over this issue. If you go over to the IPMS USA website I am sure you can find it there. I know there is something in the forums about it but you must be a IPMS member to access them.
> 
> ...


They're just trying to save the taxpayers money - or so the mantra goes.


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## El Gato (Jul 15, 2000)

Dave Metzner said:


> RC-2 wants to see prospective sales in the 50-60000 unit range before they'll invest in development of a new kit. (Revell wants to see similar numbers).
> 
> A REAL GOOD figure kit might sell 20 - 30000 units over a three year period, and the average is well short of 30000.


Holy COW!  I didn't realize the gap between expectation and reality was that big. 

You'd think some companies would adjust their expectations when given real data like this.

José


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## Dave Metzner (Jan 1, 1970)

Reality is that the best selling kit Polar lights produced before the buy-out, was The Scooby Doo Mystery Machine!(about 190,000 kits produced)
The best selling FIGURE kit is way down the list at around #17 or 18 (about 25,000 sold at the time of my departure)
Dave


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## MightyMax (Jan 21, 2000)

Okay Dave don't leave me hangin. What was the best selling PL figure kit?
If I were to guess was it the LiS Robot or Bride of Frankenstein? Am I even close?

Cheers,
Max Bryant


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## MonsterModelMan (Dec 20, 2000)

Dave Metzner said:


> Reality is that the best selling kit Polar lights produced before the buy-out, was The Scooby Doo Mystery Machine!(about 190,000 kits produced)
> The best selling FIGURE kit is way down the list at around #17 or 18 (about 25,000 sold at the time of my departure)
> Dave


Dave, Were the main reasons that Scooby Doo did so well was the fact that Wally World and other retails were carrying them? I can't say that alot of PL kits were as easy found...

MMM


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## Brent Gair (Jun 26, 1999)

Yeah...let's be honest. Polar Lights customers aren't model builders. PL ain't a hobby shop. WalMart and Toys R' Us can order a jillion Scorpion kits and make it the PL best seller.

I was at a Best Buy last week and they literally had 300 copies of WEDDING CRASHERS on the shelf. I'm not kidding and I'm not exaggerrating. I counted 30 rows stacked 10 deep. If you were to ask the local distributor what was his "best selling" DVD, he'd probably say, "Heck, I just sold 300 copies of WEDDING CRASHERS".

And some studio exec is saying, "Hey let's make more movies like WEDDING CRASHERS...the DVDs are selling like hotcakes" .

I'm very suspicious when a manufacturer reports "best selling" on the basis of what large corporate customers want to use as loss leaders for their big box toy departments. The sale of snap together toy pre-paints is part of the toy market that was embraced by PL. It's also the reason I don't miss what PL was turning into.


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## ChrisW (Jan 1, 1970)

...so if your largest customer wants to order 100,000 snap together kits of a cartoon van tied-in to a current popular film, you're instead going to produce a figure kit with limited appeal and no tie-in to appease the 2000 or so completests requesting it? Good business plan...


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Plan? PLAN?! :lol:

I think the plan behind Playing Mantis was to build up enough of a business that someone would offer $24M for it, then take the money and run, regardless of who the carpet got yanked out from under..


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## beck (Oct 22, 2003)

so ...what was PL's best selling figure kit ?? 
hb


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## Brent Gair (Jun 26, 1999)

Chris, I wasn't commenting on the validity of the business plan. I'm sure feminine napkins outsell all model kits put together which makes kit production in itself a bad business plan. And I have no doubt that the DVD of WEDDING CRASHERS outsold CITIZEN KANE and CD's from L'IL BOW WOW outsell FRANK SINATRA.

I'm just tired of the constant misrepresentation of sales. When a modeler hears the words "best selling kit" he has a right to know what constitutes the real customer.

I know PL used their talents to produce top selling movie tie-ins like the DREG ALIEN and SCORPION (Good business plan, Chris?).

PL did what a lot of businesses do before they dissappear...they forgot where they were going and who they were serving. They found a sugar daddy with Wal Mart and TRU. They became addicted to selling snap toys to the big boys.

When people lament the passing of PL, they have to know that the PL of 1998 was not the PL of 2004.


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## MonsterModelMan (Dec 20, 2000)

Brent, 

That was exactly where I was going with that comment. Just because Scooby Doo sold alot doesn't represent what the modelers liked from hobby shops. 

I guess there needs to be a distinction between "best selling" and "most popular".

The hobby shop statistic would tell me what was more popular...not what Wally World bought.
I wonder what Anthony at Hi-Way Hobbies would tell us was the biggest seller from PL. If I had to guess...it might be Star Trek stuff or the Jupiter 2...but it would be cool to know what figure kit PL sold the best in his store...

BTW: I'm all for a good business plan....I just don't like the uglyness part of business...stepping on the ones that helped get you there...

JP...can you ask Anthony next time you see him?

MMM


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

For those of us who are Aurora/Figure Kit fans (of which I am certainly one) Polar Lights' original emphasis had a built-in expiration date. They pretty much issued everything they could in the re-pop department - there were very few figure kits left that likely would have been profitable. I've never felt like the rug was pulled out from under me. Quite the opposite - I'm just happy that that plush shag rug was ever proferred in the first place. It was a damned cool rug - whimsically designed and not made to last forever.


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## MonsterModelMan (Dec 20, 2000)

Zorro,

Agreed. I am very very grateful to what PL was able to produce or re-produce. I understand what they did to stay alive. We (Aurora-philes) are a very small niche that doesn't amount to as many units...to make it worth it for someone to take the risk but then again...maybe they just needed to adjust the pricing.

MMM


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## Dave Hussey (Nov 20, 1998)

For those of you longing for a new figure kit, CultTVMan has posted on his new forum a picture of his brand new "Fantasic Cora" resin 1/8 figure kit of Cora Peterson / Raquel Welch from Fantastic Voyage, complete with laser rifle.

http://www.culttvman.biz/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=10

I think it will be quite reasonably priced for a resin kit too.

I now return you to our regularly scheduled whining.  
Huzz


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## CaptFrank (Jan 29, 2005)

*Brent Gair* lamented:


> It's also the reason I don't miss what PL was turning into.


I came late to the POLAR LIGHTS Empire. But _I like _ what they 
were turning into:

1:1000 USS ENTERPRISE
1:1000 KLINGON D-7
1:1000 NX-01 ENTERPRISE
1:350 NX-01 ENTERPRISE :thumbsup: 
1:350 USS ENTERPRISE NCC-1701-A :thumbsup: 
1:350 KLINGON K'TINGA BATTLECRUISER
(They were _headed_ there.)


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## Dave Hussey (Nov 20, 1998)

For me, Trek kits are fine as long as they are not the only thing we would have gotten. And that's the problem as I see it - the focus seemed to shift entirely to Trek kits at the last stage of PL. 

My renewed interest in models began in the early 1990's. Back then, it was always possible to find a Star Trek or Star Wars kit. But what I really wanted was the different stuff, like a Disney Nautilus, a Proteus or some related figure kit. New Trek kits are great for the Trek fans, but personally I find the different sci fi subjects to be really exciting.

I'm satisfying that with some of the neat Wilco kits. But there is still a void - its 2006 and is there a nice affordable George Pal Time Machine kit out there? Nope.

Huzz


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

MonsterModelMan said:


> JP...can you ask Anthony next time you see him?
> 
> MMM


 Yuo. Might be a week or two - he just had another baby.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Yeah, I guess it's us Trek modelers who are the most "rug-pulled-out-from-under" types.


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## MonsterModelMan (Dec 20, 2000)

John P said:


> Yuo. Might be a week or two - he just had another baby.


Cool, I didn't know the missus' and he were expecting. Tell him Bob says congrats! Also, remember...figure kit that sold the best...not Trek kit...okay?
You can ask him about both...but I really want to know what PL figure kit sold the best.

MMM


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## Dave Hussey (Nov 20, 1998)

Well, at least the Trek modelers had a nice rug for a good while.

Unlike the modelers hankering for a styrene Proteus, Nautilus, Martian War Machine, Time Machine, Earth VS the Flying Saucers Saucer, Destination Moon Luna.....

We are rug-less! 

And don't get me wrong - I'm not against Trek models at all. I've had great fun with my PL TOS Enterprise that I built as the Defiant. I just think that any company making those models should have a broader portfolio of products than just Trek. Plus some related figure kits.

Huzz


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## Mark McGovern (Apr 25, 1999)

Zorro said:


> For those of us who are Aurora/Figure Kit fans (of which I am certainly one) Polar Lights' original emphasis had a built-in expiration date... I've never felt like the rug was pulled out from under me...It was a damned cool rug - whimsically designed and not made to last forever.


I feel the same way, except that I'm not convinced that the monsters have so definite an expiration date. They've been reissued at least once a decade since they were released in the 1960's. They're all simple, affordable kits that build up into nice models straight out of the box. Is there *anyone *on this board who hasn't built even one Aurora Monster?



MonsterModelMan said:


> I am very very grateful to what PL was able to produce or re-produce...We (Aurora-philes) are a very small niche that doesn't amount to as many units...


 True enough, MMM, and given Dave Meztner's assessment of the number of kits that have to be sold to be profitable, kinda depressing as well. But I take heart from the fact that, at the model contests I attend there's always a group of kids who seem fascinated by the monster figures - Aurora or otherwise. My collection of the Universal monsters even won the "Peoples' Choice" award at an IPMS show in Cleveland. So maybe there still IS a place for mass-produced Sci-Fi/Fantasy figure kits in the larger scheme of things.

There will be as long as I can wrap my bony old fingers around a tube of glue, at any rate...


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## ChrisW (Jan 1, 1970)

Mark McGovern said:


> My collection of the Universal monsters even won the "Peoples' Choice" award at an IPMS show in Cleveland. ...


Of course, a tiny bit of that credit might belong to the stellar job you did on them...


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## the Dabbler (Feb 17, 2005)

Oh sure, STELLAR, STELLAR, it's always space and STAR stuff isn't it !! .........LOL


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## 31 Racine Rd (Aug 9, 2001)

*Please don't throw in the towel (or rug) yet.*

At the risk of being thoroughly berated by Pagni, I will tell you this:

Don't give up. Don't stop your passion for the styrene hobby. Others with the $$ to make a dream come true, share your passion.

Just be patient and interested and involved. Things are happening.

But they do take time to accomplish (unless you happen to know the licensing executives at all of the major hollywood studios, then boy would I like to talk to you right now)

There is plenty of profit left in fun model kits. There are plenty of subjects that never made it to styrene. The use of internet web stores may potentially transform this niche of 3000 people into an extremely profitable venture.

Again, be patient but please don't give up your styrene dreams. 

See you in the fall of 2009. 

31


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## Mark McGovern (Apr 25, 1999)

ChrisW said:


> Of course, a tiny bit of that credit might belong to the stellar job you did on them...


Thanks, but I doubt that the workmanship was what impressed the kids so much. Think about it - can you recall a Halloween season with no Universal Monsters peeking out anywhere?

Speaking of monsters, my defibrillator and I will be poolside when you get to Louisville, CeeDub! :wave:


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## El Gato (Jul 15, 2000)

Mark McGovern said:


> Is there *anyone *on this board who hasn't built even one Aurora Monster?


 *cough*... meekly raises hand... *cough*

José


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

El Gato said:


> *cough*... meekly raises hand... *cough*
> 
> José


Light the torches.


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## El Gato (Jul 15, 2000)

AAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## CaptFrank (Jan 29, 2005)

> Is there anyone on this board who hasn't built even one Aurora Monster?


Hang in there, El Gato!

I'm with you!

I never built an Aurora Monster, either! :thumbsup: 

That's right, I'm *proud* of it!! :tongue: 

Give me an *ENTERPRISE*, any day!



Now, where did I put my body armour?


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## the Dabbler (Feb 17, 2005)

Fear not space infidels, the force shall be with you ! We will spare you the wrath of Kahn,.....er... KONG !!!
Although these ancient and bony fingers will never touch a Trek kit !

Um..... Mr. Mark, sir......do PL re-issues count.............please ? Luminators ?


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

There are plenty of non-copyrighted or expired copyrighted figures to produce if one were only creative enough to look for them and get a good likeness sculpted. 

I appreciate historical items and many of the horror icons are plenty old enough to be out of copyright so that faithful designs created from the clues in the text or from illustrations in the original works could be quite exciting. Frankenstein's monster, Dracula, the mummy, werewolves, etc. have all been around much, much longer than the Universal interpretations. 

The fact of no license fee could make these types of historically accurate figures quite reasonable to produce. If they're made well enough, there could be plenty of sales despite no identifiable movie connections.


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## Dave Hussey (Nov 20, 1998)

For a bunch of guys whining about the demise of figure kits I'm shocked no one commented either way on Cult's Cora figure!

Huzz


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## beck (Oct 22, 2003)

i took a look at her . looks pretty cool . i'd like to see a few more detail pics . 
i visit Cult's site on a fairly regular basis . there's a lot of cool stuff on there especially if yer lookin' to customize . 
hb


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## Dave Hussey (Nov 20, 1998)

I'd give it a 9/10. It looks like a nice sculpt and I expect teh casting quality will be very good too. The laser rifle is pretty close to the pics on Cloudster. I deducted 1 mark because the hair style is not the same as in the movie. 

Although I got the hair right on the litle 1/48 scale Cora I re-sculpted for Wilco's Proteus kit a while back! 

Anyone want a perm? :jest: 

Huzz


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## beck (Oct 22, 2003)

hey Dave , i finally picked up one of those Proteus kits . right on with the Cora fig there . 
i guess the sculptor on this one was going for a more sultry look ( i also noticed he has her blouse unzipped ) . 
i remember Ms. Welch in an interview once said she liked doing this movie because it DIDN'T over emphasize her figure . ( of course to hide that figure you'd have to put her in a pickle barrell ).
hb


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## Dave Hussey (Nov 20, 1998)

Hi HB! Actually I just finished painting my 1/48 Cora and sticking her and the rest of the crew in the cabin of my Proteus model. I've been working at that kit quite sporadically, hence the slow progress. I did modify two other figures to look more like the evil Dr. Michaels and the square jawed hero Agent Grant. I'll try to post pics over the weekend.

Overall though Cult's Cora kit is very nice. Its definitely on my short list of "want to get" kits. I wonder if Ms. Welch would like the model?

Huzz


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## beck (Oct 22, 2003)

lookin'forward to seeing those pics . 
hb


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## Mark McGovern (Apr 25, 1999)

El Gato said:


> *cough*... meekly raises hand... *cough*
> 
> José





CaptFrank said:


> I never built an Aurora Monster, either! :thumbsup: That's right, I'm *proud* of it!! :tongue: Give me an *ENTERPRISE*, any day!


 _(Giving a withering, steely-eyed squint worthy of Sean Connery coupled with clenched masseter muscles that would put Maria Shriver to shame):_You - don't - say... I think we'll just have to re-institute the Dremel Salute come May. You boys be sure to come. I'll have something special for you. 

Now if you'll excuse me, I've got to check and make sure that Dremel's latest Ream-A-Way Extra Large Bore Diamond Rasper will fit the collet on the ol' Magnagouger.



the Dabbler said:


> Um..... Mr. Mark, sir......do PL re-issues count.............please ? Luminators ?


 But of course! What *else* could have gotten us together so many years ago?


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## CaptFrank (Jan 29, 2005)

Magnagouger?


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

The first three rows should cover themselves with plastic now.


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## Capt. Krik (May 26, 2001)

Mark McGovern said:


> Now if you'll excuse me, I've got to check and make sure that Dremel's latest Ream-A-Way Extra Large Bore Diamond Rasper will fit the collet on the ol' Magnagouger.
> 
> Has anybody notified the paramedics yet?


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## ClubTepes (Jul 31, 2002)

31 Racine Rd said:


> At the risk of being thoroughly berated by Pagni, I will tell you this:
> 
> Don't give up. Don't stop your passion for the styrene hobby. Others with the $$ to make a dream come true, share your passion.
> 
> ...


31,

I'm sure a lot of us are wishing you well, with various expectations of what you might finally be bringing to market. 

Some will be overjoyed and I'm sure some will be disappointed. Obviously there is no pleasing everybody.

While your true identity still seems to be a bit of a mystery, I'm sure there is speculation as to who you are and where you come from.
Are you an existing business man who has decided to get into this end of things? Or might you be a guy who won a lottery and are living the "If I win the lottery, I'm going to do this" dream. 

Either way, please don't let any store chain or distributor 'Tell you' how to make your product. I remember (Vaguely - Dave please correct me if I'm wrong) Dave posting at some point that buyers/distributors want product packaging in certain 'sizes' to fit 'X' number on shelves. And that, that mentality had a little to do in the picking of scale for the TOS E, to get it to 'fit' in the appropiate box.

Its this 'refining' of preconcieved notions of how to sell something down to just a few parameters that in my mind stifles the creative process. One might start out with a cool idea. But by the time it's commercialized to satisfy these notions, ones left with a bland milktoast product. 

(Since I did cite the PL TOS E - I don't want people thinking that I don't like this kit, I do like it. But I will go to my grave thinking-for a bunch of reasons-that it should have been produced in 1/700 scale).

So I hope you do what you want and HOW, YOU, want to do it. I look forward to seeing your stuff.


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

Dave Metzner said:


> Every license of any size regardless of cars, sci-fi movie subjects or figure kits that we did involved a guaranteed amount and a partial payment UP FRONT.
> In almost every case the licensor would not furnish any reference materials until the license agreement had been signed sealed and the check received for the front money.
> 
> This was not just the case with figure kits, it was pretty much universal for every licensed property.
> ...


Dave,
Perhaps you could discuss what marketing/Licensing strategy went into re-releasing Dick Tracy's space coupe and the customizing monsters kits, or even Dick Tracey, as well as the Monsters on Hot Rods..I cant imagine even 10,000 of those kits each selling, Yet they were produced...


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## Mark McGovern (Apr 25, 1999)

CaptFrank said:


> Magnagouger?


I've been so lax, here of late. Haven't done the Dremel Salute in a ****'s age, so nobody's had the chance to see the Dremel 2006 Nuclear Conflagration Converting 1701-Megawatt Magnagouger - E at work. But you will...


John P said:


> The first three rows should cover themselves with plastic now.


 Actually, the instruction manual recommends Kevlar, and a little lead foil might not be a bad idea, either.


Capt. Krik said:


> Has anybody notified the paramedics yet?


 Y'know, I _*still*_ get tasteless Christmas cards from the Mishawaka F. D., even since the RC2 takeover. But for the next Dremel Salute, I'm thinking maybe an Army proctology specialist might be called for.

Just a hunch.


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## big-dog (Mar 16, 2003)

Brent Gair said:


> I'm just tired of the constant misrepresentation of sales. When a modeler hears the words "best selling kit" he has a right to know what constitutes the real customer.



Ever hear of Mariah Carrey? She had best selling albums, WHILE SHE WAS MARRIED TO THE PRESIDENT OF SONY RECORDS! Many times 'best selling' refers to what the company says is THEIR best selling. So a company can essentially pick anything they want as their best seller and report any sales they want. 

For the ultimate in Warhol Syndrome, check out the Irish Tenors. Best selling in Europe according to their ads (no one I know in Europe had ever heard of them) so you HAVE to buy their album here in NA. Now they're hugely successful. In North America.


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## Steve244 (Jul 22, 2001)

Mark McGovern said:


> _(Giving a withering, steely-eyed squint worthy of Sean Connery coupled with clenched masseter muscles that would put Maria Shriver to shame):_You - don't - say... I think we'll just have to re-institute the Dremel Salute come May. You boys be sure to come. I'll have something special for you.
> 
> Now if you'll excuse me, I've got to check and make sure that Dremel's latest Ream-A-Way Extra Large Bore Diamond Rasper will fit the collet on the ol' Magnagouger.


Me Me Me Me too! I've never built a monster/figure!!!! (nor much of anything else lately)


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## Mark McGovern (Apr 25, 1999)

No problemo, Steve...the 'Gouger has plenty enough power for all and sundry who might require some, ah, inspiration to give a classic Aurora monster model kit a try.


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