# Brushless ROAR Legal in 2005



## hankster

Just got my latest RevUp and I see that ROAR will make brushless motors legal in 2005. There will be two classes of motors limited by their winds... one is designed to perform about the same as a 10T motor and the other the same as a 27T motor.

Could be that within 5 years brushed motors will be a thing of the past!


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## katf1sh

only when trinity says so! lol


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## FishRC

Now that there are rules on the motor, I think Trinity better jump to or they may be on the outside looking in as many others have already got systems they now just have to tweek. This would be a great time for other makers to take a lead in the motor world. Looking at the future, it might be much less than 5 years to see brushless take over. Watch out for 2006. I know I'd much prefer brushless now that there is a standard.


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## hankster

This is one case where the consumer has the power. Stop buying brushed motors and there is nothing Trinity (or any brushed motor manufacturer) can do about it.


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## Slider

That's like telling people don't buy Gas for a week the prices will come down.Folks just ain't gonna do that.


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## hankster

I think they will now that there are set rules for them and set classes to race them in. Before this there were no rules for anyone to follow and very few places to race them. I'll bet by the first of the year the vast majority of tracks will have at least one brushless class. Once people see the advantage and that the classes are active it will draw more and more into it. By the end of 2005 you'll have more brushless racers then brushed racers.


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## Guest

Could Li-Poly Batts not far behind to be ROAR legal. Li-Poly will give the power for brushless..............Awesome.....The hobby seems to be goin in the right direction......Back to the future.....beam me up Scotty !!!!!!:wave: 

Henry E.


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## kevinm

Slider said:


> That's like telling people don't buy Gas for a week the prices will come down.Folks just ain't gonna do that.


Bad example. This is more of a Ford/Chevy choice than have gas or don't. Either type motor/esc combo will move your race car without any other changes to it.


Hankster - If you want to see a few in action, come up to Rider's in Grand Rapids on saturday. There's at least 4 of us running them.


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## Xpressman

I think that this is a great step. I also would like to know how much influence Novak had on the way the sensors are wired. I think it is very convinent that the rules are made so only the Novak motor is legal. 

I know that the one company that begins with a H (I can't remember the name) has a far better system but the snesor wires are not in the right order.

I've also heard that soem of the other companies are thinking about sueing because of the order of the sensor wires. Something about there is no industry standard so why should ROAR makes rules like that.

This is all stuff I have heard and would liek to see if others have heard stuff like that. 

I also think that maybe it is time to take away some of the rules on the brushed motors as I am sure there is something like a 5 pole motor that will beat all others of something like that. 

I'm not getting on anybody I would just liek to see what everyone thinks. After being at the Novak TC race earlier this year and seeing how long the cars can run I think the future is here and I would love to see what it has to bring.


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## Echeconnee

Jeep, what is a LI-Poly battery?


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## kevinm

Xpressman - I believe the Hacker system is sensorless (which the rules allow), so it wouldn't rule them out. (I thought we all tried to AVOID racing against hackers?? ) They list their motors as having 7 or 8 turns, not 7-1/2, so I don't know if they're wound as a "Y" or a "delta".

Not subscribing to the conspiracy theory, I think they specified the sensor connector details to CREATE an industry standard, which would make it possible for a motor builder to make motors to run on anybody's "sensored" ESC, and ESC makers could connect to anybody's sensored motor. This way, a company could compete without having to build both motor and ESC. None of this really mattered when all we had was 2 wires, but now it does. Imagine how bad it would be if 7 different brands chose 7 different connectors, pinouts, polarities, etc. It's bad enough now that speed control manufacturers have to ship 3-4 different hoods for the receiver plug.

5-pole motors? Sounds like the old Astro-Flight ones, which I think had (illegal) cobalt magnets. Personally, I think we already see too many motor design variations with minimal benefits and maximum hype. Unless someone can find a way to get 10% more efficiency or 10x brush/comm life, I say leave it alone. (Cobalt or rare-earth magnets might just be a worthwhile change.)


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## hankster

LI-Poly batteries can not yet supply the currents that RC cars require. I believe the last I read the maximum amp draw was 20 amps... over that and the results were "attention getting"!


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## hankster

Xpressman said:


> I've also heard that soem of the other companies are thinking about sueing because of the order of the sensor wires. Something about there is no industry standard so why should ROAR makes rules like that.


Who said that off-road rims have to be 2.2"? If I made 2.5 rims could I sue ROAR? What about my motors with Colbat magnets? Or bodies that are longer (or shorter) then the rules allow? Hey, my batteries are too big (remember the first GPs?) so I think I'll sue! My "stock" motors have quad magnets... time to sue! Only believe half of what you hear 

I agree with creating the standard now before brushless really gets popular and many racer's equipment doesn't conform.


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## XXX-SCapece

hankster said:


> LI-Poly batteries can not yet supply the currents that RC cars require. I believe the last I read the maximum amp draw was 20 amps... over that and the results were "attention getting"!


I've seen lipo's power brushless trucks, and the speed was amazing. The runtime was in the 45 minute range. The guy who had one, has also built a custom 1/8 electric buggy out of a nitro 1/8 chassis. It might have been a MP 7.5, but I'm not sure.


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## hankster

Thanks for the correction... I hadn't looked into them for awhile!


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## hankster

A quick search comes up with this:

Thunder Power "Dynamic Power" LiPo Electric Flight Pack
8000 mAh, 2S4P cells (7.4V), 13 gauge wires
Rating: 5C Max Avg. Discharge (40 amps)
Output:7.4V Nominal, 8200mAh
Applications: Sub C replacement for 3D aircraft and helicopters
Dimension: 50mm x 125mm x 28mm (313gr)
Price: $179.00


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## Danny B

I've said it before, i don't like the concept of brushless. Who wants to run with everyone having an equal motor. I take much more pride in tweaking a motor to run better than the next guy. Plus with the current brushless technology(i am pretty sheltered on what is really out there) it sounds like we are going to run 10t mod brushless motors?? Guess us oval Jockey's will have to go back to 6 cell!!

If the day comes when i have to run brushless, i'll probably watch the R/C world from the seat of a go-kart or something. 

Say it ain't so!

Danny B.


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## FASTALJR

I fly airplanes, electric of course. I am flying a GWS spitfire with a Himaxx 2015-5400 brushless motor, with a 3 cell 2100 lipo, I`ll tell you I flew it stock, with a speed 300 brush motor, and a 8 cell AAA, then I switched to the brushless. Its like I put nitro in it, the thing is incredible.


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## Trixter

I've ben running brushed motors since 1988, and frankly I am ready for brushless. So I bought one. This past weekend I ran it at a two day race. I got to go and visit with all my buddies while they were cutting coms and soldering brushes. All I had to do was put in another battery and I was all set. My lathe, brushes, serrator, motor cleaner, etc etc sat in the box. Let me tell you it was great. And the rules at this track are Mod is Modified as in other than 'Stock' 

Look this is going to happen, and maybe it will put some of the "FUN" back into racing and even attract some new folks. When something is simplified it usually becomes more fun, and this is why I do it. 

Toy cars racing for bowling trophies!

Just lighten up and enjoy it.


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## blueracer55

all i am going to say is. i don't like it. idon't think i have ever seen a brushless win in oval? call me old fashion, but i want to see the guinipigs run them before i waste my money. man did everyone see all the brushless systems in factory drivers cars? no because they won't use them either. it's a pointless arguement. brush motors still have all the power!


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## DynoMoHum

'oval jockeys going back to six cell' 

I too have not paid much attention to the brushless systems out there... Do any of them even work at 4.8 volts? If there are some that do, are they potentialy ROAR legal?


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## DynoMoHum

FYI

If you don't have the Revup handy... ROAR has some details here...

http://www.roarracing.com/rules/index.htm


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## DynoMoHum

I also answered my own question... I downloaded the manual for the Novak supersport brushless system, and the input voltage is '4 to 7 cells' (1.2 volt/cell)


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## FishRC

The brushless motors are just starting out. They are new and need a lot of on track testing and refinement. I'd bet you see a several different motors by each manufacturer. If you think brushed is going to last, your going to be mistaken. Brushed will end up a low end "RTR" and racing will move to brushless. The thing will be not do you have a lot of high dollar tools to work on motors, but can you program it well. I think the greatest pressure to go to this will be TCO (total cost of ownership). With no brushes, com cutting, little or no motor cleaner, brush tools, etc., you sure can see its cheep to go brushless. This puts it more on driving than $ in the pits. That will usually equate to more racers at the track, a good thing.


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## stebog

ROAR 2004 addendum
Brushless Electric
Note 2 / Note 3
"An inductance reading is very easily obtained from a Brushless Motor without unsoldering or taking the motor out of the car."

What exactly is the range that it's supposed to read? I've seen two iterations of this rule and neither has mentioned a value.


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## erock1331

I will admit I am clueless when it comes to brushless systems.
If another brushless motor comes out will you need another ESC to go with it?

I know in oval we pretty much average a different set of motors each year and usually need to buy a bunch to have a good select few.
Will brushless be the same way, motor of the month? cause if so that could get real expensive with the current prices?


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## hankster

The wiring specs should eliminate the need to buy matched sets of motors/ESCs. I suppose as with anything there will be improvements along the way. A brushless motor is about $80.00, a brushed mod motor is about $60.00. Now add in the brushes you have to change every couple runs, the brush springs, the comm lathe, the dyno, etc. and you can see that brushless is no more expensive.

If a new motor comes out, the old brushless is almost "in new" condition and you should be able to easily sell it for half price ($40.00) to some backyard basher or someone that doesn't need the latest and greatest to race with. How much are well used brushed mod motors worth... if you can even sell them?

Also, runtime should be less critical as you can easily get 7 minutes out of brushless "mod" motor.


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## kevinm

Danny B said:


> I've said it before, i don't like the concept of brushless. Who wants to run with everyone having an equal motor. I take much more pride in tweaking a motor to run better than the next guy. Plus with the current brushless technology(i am pretty sheltered on what is really out there) it sounds like we are going to run 10t mod brushless motors?? Guess us oval Jockey's will have to go back to 6 cell!!
> 
> If the day comes when i have to run brushless, i'll probably watch the R/C world from the seat of a go-kart or something.
> 
> Say it ain't so!
> 
> Danny B.


Unfortunately, this is the attitude I've come to expect from today's crop of oval racers (but not from Danny, who is widely regarded as a great driver  ). It's also the reason I've quit racing pan car oval. It seems that oval racers WANT to spend hours working on motors and tuning the chassis, with the race result much more dependent on what you do with the wrenches than with the transmitter.

Back when pan cars ran 6 cells, a 10-turn was considered a fast motor, and you had to actually let off the throttle in the turns. Today, most of the oval racers in Michigan run either 19-turn or stock, with the trigger planted all the way around on all but the smallest tracks. Running a 10-turn would be a big improvement.


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## katf1sh

it's all speculation..but i would bet with the advent of brushless motors will come a whole new set of ways we would tune our motors..at least in oval anyways...

for one..a brushless motor is tuneable..via a computer..wonder how many ways there are to hack a brushless motor to make it run like a 6 turn? what values can you tweak? will the pro's have access to such knowledge? 

if you think the brushless motor will perform like new after 15 runs on a oval i think you may be wrong? i think there will still be many ways to tweak these things...like i said as soon as trinity has a full color add in carhaction brushless still rides in the back seat. i'm willing to bet though that brushless motors will be just as easy to tune or cheat with as a brushed motor. and i'm willing to bet the oval heads would find ways to make them run faster and would also find they run better with some kind of maitenance as well? when a brushless system wins mod at the birds we all know it is here..otherwise hobby bobby and his monster truck will be the consumer for these things..your gonna have to beat me in mod with one before i go buy one...speaking as a oval racer...but i'm not gonna say i will never use one..nor will i say in the future we may all be using one..so far i'm not blown away with any of the current brushless motors.. besides i own a lathe,dyno and brushes now..i also own a keyence speedo or three..i guess they all just get thrown away? ouch


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## DynoMoHum

I'm deffintely in agreement with Kat's opion that along with brushless motors will come new ways to tweak motors... this time it will be done with software, and in the begining ONLY the factory guys will have access to the tweaks... Over time tweaks will become part of the package and/or available to the masses. Maybe there will always be some tweaks only available to those that have inside or excpetional knowlege of how the stuff works... at the very minimum, the guy who learns the most how to take advantage of the tweaking will go faster then the next guy... 

In my opion brushless should never be thought of a equalizer of any sort. There may be less maintaince and other bennifits, but I don't buy the argument that it will somehow even the playing feild as far as motors are concerned...

Quite frankly... I'd love to have a brushless system, and a slick computer program that allowed me to tweak every single parameter there is to tweak... and maybe even allow you to create your own tweaks... I'm a nerd by nature, and I love tweaking things wether or not it's tweaking brush hoods or software parameters, makes no differiance to me...


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## ddd

all you guys still have to remember that you must be able to drive that brushless motor. meaning car setup!
i have seen brushless motors in off road. i have had a better handling car and beat them. i also think that there will be tracks that the motor wont respond to as well as a brushed motor, where as you can tune the brushed motor the brushless you cant.
i am no where ready to start with brushless. orion has made big advancment with there v2 motors and the duration between rebuilds.


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## Danny B

First off, i was a little frank with my comments about brushless. The top drivers will always be the last to fold when it comes to something like this. Look how long it took 4-cell oval racing to be recognized nation wide! Much like 4-cell this isn't going to happen over night and it will definately happen in on-road and off-road first. 

My biggest concern is what happens to the smaller motor companies that have families and such to feed? Fantom, Putnam, Kisbey, KC etc etc. Trinity and Reedy have enough revenue from other areas to survive and the means to have their own brushless systems if they wanted to do it. What about the little guys???

Whenever i get to see a big on-road or off-road race it doesn't really look like Blackstock or Kinwald just sit around between rounds BS'ing. They work their butts off. Probably do more maintenance work for one round on a TC or off-roader than I do all day on an oval car. 

Another concern...say we are at the snowbirds, anyone who's anyone is there. we're all running brushless(putting aside possible tweaks) we all have pretty equal motors. The top group of guys is going to have their cars dialed and everyone can flat out wheel at a race like that. So whats missing from the equation?? BATTERIES!!! 

From what i've heard the efficency of brushless runtime issues would be down next to not a problem, so to make the motor run faster the only way is add voltage! Well, they'll probably make all races longer which should bring runtime back into the equation but since we can't really turn up the juice...yet...the most voltage and runtime will have an advantage! Bust out the 1400's BATTERY WARS are back!!!

I just want to see that the positives and the negatives are counted. I like the way cars are run now. Batteries are fairly equal and at least around me car counts have been going up. What's good for the goose may not be good for the gander!


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## Paperboy

Strikes me as the same wars, new things to fight over. Some mod motors run better than others, whos to say it wont be the same with BL? Will we have companies specially winding a BL motor? And if you want to run the new "Novak 8x2 BL", you have to buy the whole motor not just an arm. And from the looks of it, a BL motor is more expensive than a new arm.

And then there are gonna be all the same things that we have for brushed motors...magnets will still need zapping? If they really do make incredible power, will something we havent thought of wear out? Maybe the controller overheats and blows up when you run a 3:1 final drive in your TC "because I can".

Too much of an unknown for my taste


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## Herc Driver

I say Amen! Lets use the technology! Brushes are going to be a thing of the past! Thank you Novak for "sticking yer neck out"!


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## DynoMoHum

There are indeed good points and bad points to everything. As Danny pointed out some of the first people to be effected by this are the people who make their living building and tuning brushed motors. I feel for them... however the same type of thing happens in the rest of the world, some things become obsolete, and people need to change to accomidate the changes thrust opon them. It's not always fun, and some people will deffintely loose out. I'm not sure it's ROAR's obligation to keep things like this from happening however.

One interesting thing I've heard a little about... Big Jim claims that brushed motors could be just as effcient and/or powerfull as a bushless motor if things such as exotic magnets and 5 segment armatures were used in them... 

In the end, I beleive it is/will be the market itself that determins if or when the brushed motors go away... as long as people still buy brushed motors, someone will sell them, and more then likely ROAR will continue to allow them....

I'll likely stay out of the brushless game untill at least half of the local drivers switch...

I beleive the brushless controlers will change more frequently then the motors themselves will... and I also predict that once the brushless gets going full swing, you will see frequent changes in controlers as various companys try to out do one another and try to get more of our $$$...


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## DJ1978

I put one in my TC3 "O" and love it!!! I hate all the maintenance that goes with a brushed MOD motor. Performance is on par with any vehicle on the track. NOW if the driver could just "BRUSH" up on his driving skills!! LOL!


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## Skull & Bones

We are all sitting here and speculating. Who knows what will come about with the changes of the future. One thing will always remain constant, the best handling car will still be the fastest!

S & B


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## zsamples

Hi All,
It seems to me that everyone is starting to get on edge with this announcement. People are saying there are going to be so many more ways to cheat with brushless motors but I want to know just how many more ways are there to cheat with a brush motor set-up. Another question--just how are you going to change the programing in the speed control when there no where to plug it in? I suppose you could upgrade the components in the speed control but that is above my education level and i don't ever plan on trying it. I also believe that it will hurt the smaller companies like putnam and kisbey just to name a few but it will take time for this to develope into a cost effective situation with the current price of a NOVAK which is around $240 I believe. Around my local tracks i would say over 20-25 people have gone brushless and would never go back (I own two myself). My last point refers to the comment about how companies will release various speed controls trying out do their competition. Whats the difference between now and then? There are many companies that have an immense amount of speed controls that have become "absolete" do to competition. Take NOVAK for example how many speed controls do they have--fifteen different ones? My point is that it's the companies job to get their consumers money. I might be putting my foot in my mouth here but has there ever been any company that didn't want to make as much money as possible? I don't want to start any arguments about this as I am just stating what i think Later--Zack


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## FishRC

lets see....cost....
Brushed:
1) Mod motor: $60 (if you only use one... yea... right)
2) Brushes for motor over life of motor: $12+
3) Lathe: $120+
4) Brush hood tool: $10
5) Motor spray, com sticks, oil, etc. : $15+++++++
6) ESP: $110+
Total: $327 (plus additional arms and parts you might need to get
the same life span as brushless.)
Brushless:
1) NOVAK: $240
2) cleaning materials $15+
Total: $255
The cost factor alone (yes, debate all you want on line item costs, the point is the same) will push brushless to the front of racing as its affordable to more racers. The top guys typically do not spend as much or are just running sponsors equipment. It’s the average guy out at his small local track and the back yard basher that pays the bucks to keep the manufacturers in the in the black.


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## DynoMoHum

Alot of the profromance and operational issues of a brushless system are controled by software. Software can always be changed... maybe not easly by the average person in some cases, but for those who do the programing at the factory, they certinly can make modifications and/or one off versions of the basic software. Some very knowleable outsiders could also modifiy the software with enough desire and effort.

Many modern forms of electronic equipment allow you to update the software realtively easily. Many modern forms of electronics actualy run a version of DOS, that is fairly easy for a average programer to edit. Take for instance the Canon Digital Rebel SLR camera... It sells for around $1000... The Canon 10D sells for about $1500 and has some features that the Rebel doesn't have... well you can find hacked versions of the Rebel software that allow you to make a Rebel proform very simmilar to the 10D... This can all be downloaded over the internet and then you can update your Rebel yourself... None of this is endorsed or even desireable to Canon... but hit happens and like pirated music... there isn't really any way to stop it...

Many DVD players are being hacked these days as well... people do all sorts of things to modern electronics, simply because a large portion of the functionality of the product is based on software.

Back to Brushless... I bet there are ways to modify the timing advance within the software... there probably are ways to make it adjustable depending on load, or other factors... Traction control or something resembling it is probably also entirely possible with only software changes. Braking force and maybe even anti-lock braking is also probably realtively easy to achive with software changes to a brushless system. I beleive it's just a matter of time before we see these things happen, either direct from the manufacture, or possibly direct from some hacker. (not the company named hacker)


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## gezer2u

But with the tweeking comes a way to verify if tweeking has been done. By using a computer to plug into the speed control and "see" the software program. As simple as changing the profile in you KO speedo now. I like brusshless. It is all most unlimited HP.


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## Mark Recio

Lots of good points here. Taking a step back, it sure seems like we are headed toward an F1 mentality that has been prevalent in 1/8th scale for years. Judging by 1/8th scale numbers, and the domination exemplified by the 2004 FIA season, is this really the direction we need to be taking things???


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## Fred B

There will always be an advantage to having better batteries regardless of what motor you're using. The factory drivers will always get the better cells because they are factory drivers. Brushless won't make the battery war any worse. In fact, for the casual user it will make batteries less of an issue.

The current OEM's (mom and pops) will still buy motor "R" or "O" and wind the can to their specs. The two things that will hurt the small companies are longer lasting motors (we buy less) and the loss of consumable items like brushes and springs. These companies will have to start selling other consumable items to make up the differance.

With the current 8 turns (except the Orion) you're going to spend about $20 a race day on brushes. Even the Orion motors will use up a set of brushes in one day. The weekly brush savings is a huge improvement that can't be ignored.

BTW: The brushless motors (at least the Novak) use neodymium magnets and they won't demagnetize like the magnets in our brushed motors. When they say low maintenance, they really do mean it.


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## hankster

DynoMoHum said:


> One interesting thing I've heard a little about... Big Jim claims that brushed motors could be just as effcient and/or powerfull as a bushless motor if things such as exotic magnets and 5 segment armatures were used in them


And what would those cost? Look at current Colbat motors and they are priced at $200+, close the price of a full BL motor/ESC combo. Then you still have the consumables such as brushes and springs


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## Dawn Sanchez

now this is good... 

ok, here's the thing.. ROAR sets guidelines for ROAR sanctioned events. ROAR does NOT mandate to manufacturers how to make their products. If the company wants to make a product for a racer to compete in ROAR events, they can and will do so. Basically, ROAR is about a standard set of rules and guidelines to mandate the running of ROAR events - not to dictate what YOU purchase.

Hank, the wheel thing was a good example. ROAR rules state what the wheel size can be to be considered legal in ROAR sanctioned events - which, that one, follows IFMAR policies for Worlds event participation. Proline had a situation with their molding process and it came to light with the new wheels about a year ago. ROAR allowed these wheels a 180 day grace period to allow Proline to retool the mold, for those who plan on competing in ROAR events. Coincidentally, Losi had the exact same issue with 4wd fronts..... 

Brushless is here to stay. NOVAK DID NOT dictate the policies. There are 5 manufacturers following the basic set of guidelines we have established and will put into place for the next rule book. Again, these are basic guidelines that will be revamped as time goes on and technology increases and the needs and wants of the MEMBERSHIP requests it. 

I hope I put some of the negative aspect of this new class into ROAR aside? Growth in the sport is what will keep it around.. not negating a new idea....


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## FishRC

Dawn, given the rules as stated right now, what motors could meet this spec if submitted? Have any been submitted?


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## RickRussellTX

Some of the (proposed) Li-Poly solutions I've seen would put two or three cells in a parallel. Put a couple of those stacks in series and you've got something that produces 7.2V and can easily handle 30-40 amp draw. And the net weight would still be less than NiMH for the same capacity.

NiMH are still a great deal (from both a performance, reliability and price standpoint), so I don't see LiPoly storming into the land-based RC market any time soon.


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## hankster

Some have said that some manufacturers present BL motors do not follow ROAR wiring standard with a comment that they are thinking of suing. We have to look at ROAR's recent history and how they have worked with manufacturers to help them become compliant. In the case stanted above, Pro-line was allowed a waver. We also know that GP was allowed a waver.

Why wouldn't these motor manufacturers approch ROAR asking for a waver instead of talking about suing. Maybe they could offer an adaptor that would convert their present wiring scheme to the ROAR standard with the understanding that new products will conform. I bet ROAR would be open to something like this... they are not here to hurt manufactuers and in fact have worked with them to help them make their current products usable at ROAR races.


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## Fred B

LiPo cells are great for receiver cells and for smaller vehicles like mini T's but they can't source the current necesary for even stock racing at this time. Because of the high current spikes involved, the cells would heat up reducing their lifespan. 


Has anyone seen what happens to a LiPo cell when it's dead shorted? It's pretty impressive. Just one of the reasons that they aren't a good option yet.

There are cells in the works that would actually handle the current but they're not LiPo and they're a couple of years out.


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## kevinm

DynoMoHum said:


> One interesting thing I've heard a little about... Big Jim claims that brushed motors could be just as effcient and/or powerfull as a bushless motor if things such as exotic magnets and 5 segment armatures were used in them...


With all due respect to Big Jim, the brushed motor has a commutator, which puts it at an inherent disadvantage. The brushes have resistance and friction, and the comm wears and gets out-of-round, none of which is present in a brushless.

I personally find it doubtful that Joe Racer (or even Joe Software Hacker Racer) is going to be able to reverse-engineer Novak's software (in machine code, NOT DOS) and re-write it to make it run better than the guys that designed it. Most of the "tweaking" that goes on with brushed motors is finding the right brush/spring combo and keeping the comm perfectly round. The only brushed motor variable that might apply to brushless is timing, but I suspect the manufacturers have already found the optimal timing point and ship them that way. The other big variable in brushed motors is the magnets & can they're in. Ceramic magnets aren't as consistant as the rare-earth ones used in brushless motors. As already mentioned, the neodymium magnets in the rotor aren't going to lose strength, so magnet zapping isn't an issue.

I've been running a Novak brushless since the outdoor season started (8-10 race days), and it hasn't lost any performance that I can detect. The only complaint anyone has had with them (there are 4-6 of us using them) is that when you over-gear them, the ESC shuts down due to overheating. If you wait 20-30 seconds, it cools off and you can keep racing. Compare this to a brushed mod motor. When you over-gear one of them, what could happen is:
A-You dump the battery
B-The brushes fry
C-The comm gets torn up
D-The windings fry
E-The magnets get hot & lose strength
F-Any combination of A through E

And here's some fun info for Glenn (a.k.a. DynoMoHum)


Code:


[font=Courier New]NOVAK SS5800 MOTOR SPECS (FROM NOVAK):[/font]
[font=Courier New]POWER RATING : 196 Watts[/font]
[font=Courier New]SPEED : 5800 RPM/Volt[/font]
[font=Courier New]TORQUE : 0.45 in-oz/Amp [/font]
[font=Courier New] [/font]
[font=Courier New]ACTUAL TURBO-DYNO NUMBERS AT 6.7 Volts:[/font]
[font=Courier New] RPM  TORQ WATTS EFF% AMPS[/font]
[font=Courier New]29767  3.6   80   80  14.9[/font]
[font=Courier New]27893  5.1  107   79  20.0[/font]
[font=Courier New]26406  6.6  130   77  24.8[/font]
[font=Courier New]25166  8.2  153   75  30.0[/font]
[font=Courier New]24106  9.5  170   72  24.9[/font]
[font=Courier New]23062 10.9  186   68  40.0[/font]
[font=Courier New]22244 12.1  199   65  45.0[/font]

Hey Hank, how come the columns don't line up anymore when you use the "code" tags??


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## hankster

Code only prevented line breaks and not strip out or try to parse any code.


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## kevinm

??? I was wondering why the equally spaced text columns I used cut-and-paste with didn't line up after the paste. The "code" thing used to work when pasting from DOS or Notepad, but now it looks like space characters aren't the same size as normal letters.


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## hankster

I looked at your message and it seems you didn't have things lined up properly. I edited your messages so they do.


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## kevinm

Strange. The editor wasn't showing it to me in the same font as it displays in. I changed the text to courier new and now get the result I expect.


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## Trixter

I have enjoyed this hobby/sport since '88. As I age I am looking for more ways to make it more convenient to have fun. I am past the "I just gotta win" stage. Mind you I still really enjoy a good old 'Door to Door' race and have competed in many. Won some and lost some. To me the enjoyment is just being able to still pull the trigger. New inovations are cool, but the step from brushed to brushless is a giant leap forward. Many folks have wanted to and are telented enough to run modified but have been disappointed by the 'Maintenance' factor. "Gee I really want to run Mod but I don't have a lathe, can't solder too good, etc etc. Brushless opens up the opportunity of mod racing to many more people. 
The most asked question I get from observers is. "How fast will it Go?", the next question is, "How much does it co$t", and "How much does it co$t to get started"? Then; What is all that stuff for on your work table for"? If you look at this from the standpoint of the person who is wanting to get started, the brushless system makes a lot of sense. Look what habppened when RTR vehicles first came out, we all said that It wouldn't do much for the hobby, and my LHS sells RTR 9 or 10 to 1. The point here is I think we need to adjust our thinking forward to what will increase the amount people involved in our hobby/sport. I know that I for one try to get more people involved at every opportunity.


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## Off Road Racer

.....


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## wreckscuba

In GR saturday the brushless guys where have problems with the unit overheating and turning off.It was hot out but the guy they where chasing had a brush motor he was faster and never had to stop for 30sec to cool down.The week before when it was cooler out the brushless was looking great I was think of geting one but now I dont know.A few of the guys had fans on the esc to and they still had problems .


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## XXX-SCapece

Fred B said:


> LiPo cells are great for receiver cells and for smaller vehicles like mini T's but they can't source the current necesary for even stock racing at this time. Because of the high current spikes involved, the cells would heat up reducing their lifespan.
> 
> 
> Has anyone seen what happens to a LiPo cell when it's dead shorted? It's pretty impressive. Just one of the reasons that they aren't a good option yet.
> 
> There are cells in the works that would actually handle the current but they're not LiPo and they're a couple of years out.



I beg to differ, Lipo's can be extremely powerful and will last up to 45 min.s with a Brushless motor. Yes, they can explode or catch fire, but eventually that will be resolved. 
Lipo's and Brushless are the future of electric racing. They would make electric much more desirable than nitro. If someone can go just as fast, w/ No maintance, and run just as long, what keeps them away from electric racing?

We all know it's coming, and sometime we'll have to give up our lathes, dynos, serrators, ect... but it will be in best interest of the hobby.


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## MobileMikeV

What about Lithium Ion rather than Lithium Polymer?

I have had some experience with them in 1/18 scale. They were 2 cells and i believe had a 7.2v output. They were extremely light as well. They also had a problem with exploding into flames and burning down houses, but it was very rare, and the people it happenned to were probably using a NiMH charger rather than a charger designed to charg L-Ion cells.


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## Fred B

Like I said, LiPo batteries aren't there yet. That doesn't mean that they aren't going to improve. There are new chemistries and new constructions in the works that will make this type of cell viable for RC but they're years off.

Here are the three problems with LiPo cells currently:

1) A relatively high internal resistance means that the cells can't source the 100 amp spikes that mod racing puts on the cells (70 amps in stock) unless you use 3-4 packs in parallel.

2) High current draws and heat greatly reduce the life of LiPo cells. Not that the current GP's last forever but who knows how long these things will last at an average of 30-40 amps. The plane guys don't see the huge spikes that we do so this is less of an issue with them

3) The risk of fire after a crash is the one thing that will keep these cells out of the RC market. It only takes one person getting burned to kill these cells in RC. It's pretty easy for us to say that it's the user's fault for bad wireing but the insurance companies don't see it that way.



So, yes, new cell technology will make it's way into RC but not for quite some time. The LiPo cells are great and can be used in lower current draw stuff like receiver packs and MiniT's. But no, they aren't ready for 5 turn Orion motors yet.

Brushless motors may be better suited for LiPo but who knows...


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## DynoMoHum

So, how'd you get the TurboDyno numbers Kevin? Did you just hook the thing up with the controler set to full throttle? or what....


So how do those numbers compare to brushed motors? I would have thought the efficnecy would have been higher at the higher amp loads...

As for modifying the code... Someone will figure out how to... and I don't really beleive there is one single best way to set the timing advance. Differnt applications might work better with differnt timing... say for instance off road vs. on road... or maybe even differnt for Oval... 

I'm not against brushless... I just wish it was more mature technology and that all my wishes for a sytem such as configurable timing, and other parameters were already available in a system that was on the market today...

As for brushed motors running as well as a brushless... well I don't want to get into that kind of a debate... however... There is a $40 limit (or whatever it is) on stock motors with brushes... why is there a $129 limit on burshless motors? Clearly brushed motors and brushless motors aren't competing on the same $$$ level. Or is that $129 for a ROAR legal 'stock' brushless motor, include the controler in that price????


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## FishRC

DynoMoHum said:


> There is a $40 limit (or whatever it is) on stock motors with brushes... why is there a $129 limit on burshless motors? Clearly brushed motors and brushless motors aren't competing on the same $$$ level. Or is that $129 for a ROAR legal 'stock' brushless motor, include the controler in that price????


Well you can't compare $$$ unless you compare Total cost of ownership. If you look at the life span of a brushless and then calculate the cost of a brushed stock motor(s), my guess is you will have a huge savings. The Novak brushless is seling for $80 for the motor and $170 for the ESC. Thats like buying one high end ESC and one good hand wound mod motor. The diferance is you don't have to buy so many motors.


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## DynoMoHum

I wonder if there are going to be any limits on the price of 'stock' controlers?


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## DynoMoHum

What if commutators were replaceable somehow? If you could have a $129 limit on a stock motor, allowed bearings, and had replaceable commutators, more then 3 segment arms, etc... then the only real cost differnace between owning a brushed motor and a brushless would be the cost of replacement brushes...

Ok, so I don't know how you make a replaceable commutator... but my point is, that comparing brushless costs to brushed costs when you have already severely handicaped the stock brushed motor is not nessasarly fair either. Who knows what kind of brushed motors we might have if the technology hand't been restricted over the years...

but then you do still have other negitive things relating to brushes and mechanicaly locked timing.


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## kevinm

Glenn - I'm not sure where the $129 number came from. Like Fish said, they sell for $80 now. Maybe that's Novaks "suggested retail price" that no one actually pays. (When's the last time you paid $40 for a stock motor?) Hacker's list price for a motor is $179, ESC is $259. I don't know about any of the other systems out there (not even their names).

To dyno it I used:
1-A brushless motor & ESC
2-A radio system
3-A rubber band
The rest I leave to your imagination.  

Compared to standard brushed motors (run through a Quantum Pro Sport), the brushless had about 5-15% better efficiency at up to 30 amps, then fell off at the higher numbers (possibly due to voltage drop in the ESC). Power wise, it was higher than a 19-turn (188W max), and less than a 14-turn (212W max). The interesting thing was, the 10-turn I tested only made 2 watts more than the 14-turn when run through the speed control. Also of note: Monster stocks DO NOT LIKE being tested at 45 amps! Anything above 35 produced less power than the step before it.

My UNOFFICIAL scoring of the "A" main winners this season at Grand Rapids has: Brushless-8 Brushed-5


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## gezer2u

Here are price's for brushless.

http://www.teamnovak.com/products/price/price.htm

http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0091p?&C=CKF&V=NOV

http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0091p?&C=MJE&V=NOV

Not bad price's. 224.99 for a complete system.


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## hankster

Compared to the following:
LRP Quantum Comp 2 - $179.95
Trinity Mod Motor - $59.99
Total - $239.94


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## rcgen

Novak currently have two bl systems. Can you get one system and just buy the other motor that way you will have 1 controller a "stock" motor and a modified motor? Or will you need a system for each type of motor?


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## Fred B

The current Novak brushless ESC will run both of the motors that are out now. Look for a new ESC from Novak soon that will run the hotter motor outlined in the ROAR rules. I would assume that the new speedo would run the other motors as well.


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## DynoMoHum

The $40 and $129 comes from the ROAR rules and represents the maximum price of a stock brushed motor and a 'stock' brushless motor respectively.

The dyno numbers are impressive Kevin. It probably is the controler that is hindering the proformance above 30 amps... Which brings up the fact that there is likely still alot of room for improvement in controlers...

I also still wonder if ROAR has any intentions of regulating the cost and other items related to the controler used in the 'stock' brushless catagorey. I mean after all the controler really will be the biggest factor in proformance since all the motors are virtualy the same.


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## FishRC

I think you will see the manufactures have a lot of room for now in developing the controller. I would not expect to see a cost or even spec control on the controller as that would be very difficult to evaluate. It’s far easier to control the spec on the motor it self much as they have done with brushed motors.

What I think will be really interesting is to see if who is going to build what. Novak has built a complete system and has the marketing to get it out to the masses. Who else will? Most motor builders just build motors and not electronics, will they still build motors and let others build the controllers? Could be interesting seeing as there will be far fewer motors sold for brushless because of the far greater life span of the motor.


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## DynoMoHum

If (and I think it does) the controler is largely responsible for the overall proformance of the system, and your trying to create a 'stock' class... then I would think you'd need to find a way to regulate the controlers... I agree that is will be difficult, maybe even close to impossible... 

So, then will we have a controler of the month war in the future 'stock' brushless class? That sounds cheap doesn't it?


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## zsamples

Dyno,
If the controler has as much impact as you think it does (I'm just speculating as i have no idea either) then why when using the same controler with the 5800 and the 4300 you get two drastically different results? I know what some probably thought when they read that-- duh the 5800 is the mod and the 4300 is the stock. But with the same controler shouldn't the stock just destroy all brush type stocks? My answer is no because we had a person buy one and ran it against us and most stock motors running out ran the thing both in corners and straights. So what im trying to get at is that i believe the motor has a more significant resposibilty than the controler with brush type systems. Later--Zack


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## DynoMoHum

The motors you speak of have a differnt number of winds if I'm not mistaken. What I'm talking about when I say the controler will be the most significant source of proformance , is when the motor is heavily regulated and standardized... That is, when the motor is more or less equal, the only place there is room for improvement is in the controler... and in brushless motors, the controler is potentialy of very great importance...

With brushed motors, the function of the ESC is not that complex compared to the controler in a brushless system. On ESCs the only way to significantly improve the proformance is by using components that have lower electrical resistance and the ones we have now are extreemly small and have extreemly low internal resistance. With brushless, the controler is responsible for ALOT of stuff, including providing very precisely timed pulses that effectively determin the 'timing' of the motor... they also have the electrical resistance thing that ESCs have but it seems to me they have not yet started using the really high grade components yet... 

Meanwhile... I beleive brushless controlers have ALOT of room for improvements and the more popular the systems become, the more heavily companys will invest in development of these systems. Some of the changes will simply be software, and hopefully we can get software updates without having to buy a whole new controler... but there will also be improvements in hardware, making them smaller with less electrical resistance, etc... and you will have to buy a new controler to get those kinds of improvements. If/when a truely better controler comes out, you will need one if you want to go as fast as the other guy who has one, and thus begins the controler wars.


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## hankster

As was orginally stated in the "draft" ROAR rules, they will be tweaked as needed. I would guess if the controllers need to be regulated, they will be. Of course, at this time, all we can do is guess at what is and isn't important. A controller of the month is not much different then the past motor of the month era we went through. The only advantage is the old brushless controller still have value where it was hard to give away an old brushed motor.

Even if a new controller/motor has to be bought every year I think the TCO will even out. I was recently talking to an oval driver that generally does pretty well. I asked about what it costs him to race. He claims that at an average race he will use 3 pair of brushes changing them after practice (2 or more runs) and twice during the 3 qualifers and main (those Putnam brushes are hard on comms). After about 2 months the motor is shot and he has to buy a new one. Total cost for 2 months of racing (9 weeks) is $30 for the motor and $67.50 ($2.50 x 27 sets of brushes) for a total $97.50.

We'll be conservitive and say he only races every other week for a total of 27 weeks (or 6 months). Take the above times 3 and we come up $292 (and this doesn't include the cost of the ESC for the brushed motor)... well over the cost of a complete brushless ESC/motor combo.

I'll be even more conservative and say the cost is even over the course of a year. The next year starts and you need to purchase a new brushless motor/ESC combo. You can take the old brushless ESC/motor combo and should easily be able to get $100 out of it. What would those 3 old brushed motors sell for? Zip? Most likely. Then you are stuck with a year old ESC when a newer and better brushed ESC may have come out.

So in the end, even if a new brushless ESC/motor combo does have to be purchased every year, at the worse it's a wash with a brushed system. More then likely you'll come out ahead.


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## FishRC

Good to see some one else looking at TCO. And I think you were very conservative Hank. You never changed the springs, cleaned the motor, cut the comm, cut the brushes, and so on.....


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## kevinm

Fred B said:


> The current Novak brushless ESC will run both of the motors that are out now. Look for a new ESC from Novak soon that will run the hotter motor outlined in the ROAR rules. I would assume that the new speedo would run the other motors as well.


Fred - I'm about 99% sure that the motors specified in the ROAR rules ARE the 2 current Novak motors. The resistance of the windings is close to a "brushed" 15-turn, which is what I'd expect from a 7-1/2 turn "Y" winding. The "stock" brushless is spec'd as 10-1/2 turns, which _should_ make it equivalent to a 21 turn.

zsamples - I haven't seen anyone running the SS4300 motor, so I can't say for sure, but it seems unlikely to me that a motor rated at 175 watts would not perform significantly better than a brushed stock motor. (The review in Extreme RC tested it, and said it's speed was fairly similar, but the low end torque was way better.) Maybe the person running it didn't find the right gear, wasn't handling (or driving?), or maybe ran the speedo in one of the "limited" modes. (Maybe Novak ships the "stock" ones that way??) 

One of the "myths" about the Novak system is the belief that the speedo can be programmed to emulate any wind of brushed motor. The truth is that it really has only 6 modes, 3 with reverse (odd numbers) and 3 without (even numbers). The first 4 modes have no limit on acceleration or top speed, with the only difference being how much brake you get initially. The last 2 modes limit acceleration with a ramp function, and limit top speed with a (rather jerky) RPM limiter function.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned by anybody is that the Novak SS5800 runs about like a 12 or 13 turn, which seems to be more motor than most racers are used to having (at least in Michigan Oval and On-Road). So does it really matter to most racers if next month's ESC boosts it to 8-turn performance? (OK, so if it does, I WANT ONE!) They'll still be adjusting to the performance of the "base model".


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## zsamples

Dyno- I agree with you that the speed control is extremely important but i believe that companies will come out with "faster" brushless motors (i.e. less winds) first than speed controls just because i think it would be cheaper to produce something the that is more economical to the consumer then something twice as much--i.e. the controller. And if someone bought a $180 speed control just to get that extra .1 of a second I say let him (Just hope he can get all that extra power to the ground first).

kevinm- He may had been undergeared but i doub--it only because he owns the track and he can drive well also. I'm almost certain it was in unlimited because many people had this system before the stock motor release and i rember seeing another one in the package(just motor). So, i doubt he bought a whole system just to try it out. Later--Zack


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## Xpressman

At the Novak TC race they ran a brushless class. I know that Charlie (won it) told Erik Whippler (finished 2nd) to add some coast brake. This made the car easier to drive by not allowing the motor to freespin. It added enough resistence to make it feel more like a brushed motor that he was used to driving. The class was with rubber tires and they were geared to the moon. Not only for the top speed but it made the cars easier to drive by killing some of the bottom end torque.

I think that the biggest thing that needs to happen is for more people to take up this technology and to start develope it. Look at the current stock motors and how much faster they are now and they are pretty much the same rules that were introduced in 1991.


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## DynoMoHum

I think there is very little doubt that for someone who currently runs mod, the TCO is likely to be lower with a brushless system... 

I can even conceed that the TCO in the long run will be with brushless even for a 'stock' type class of racing...

I guess my only point in bringing up the issues of comparing the significant differance in $$ limits between the current stock motor and the brushless 'stock' motor. Is that it's not exactly fair to make sound like brushless systems are the answer to all the issues we see in 'stock' type competition... Brushless is NOT going
to be a equlizer like some people think it will be... you will have to buy new equipment from time to time to keep up with advancements... and while in the long run it might be slightly cheaper... I'm sure there will be some new items that we all will have to spend money on, if we choose to try and compete at the highest level... Racing has been and likely always will be at least somewhat dependant on spending significant amounts of money in an a attempt to go even faster then the next guy. Brushless isn't going to magicly change all that.


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## FishRC

I think your right that the money at the top levels will not change much be it brushless or brushed. But the top level buys very little and produces even less profit for the makers. Its the back yard basher and the more basic drivers that purchase most of the products. If they can buy one brushless that runs for 2 to 3 years and they barely, if ever touch it, its a far easier sell then what we have today with brushed motors. This is going to shrink the motor market and make the manufacturers adjust there business. This is a harsh reality but one all businesses face.


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## rayhuang

Here is where I think the biggest push for Brushless sould be-Monster trucks and RTR TOuring cars from Associated, Losi, Thunder tiger. ITs not affordable right now-so that hurts it!!

But in the long run this may very well encourage more bashers to enter racing as they will feel a lot more comfortable not owning a lathe or having a huge selection of motor brushes and springs.

As a side benefit-when those novices show up and the brushed guys watch how fast the novices cars are in a straight line-and how they do no maintenance, it might chnage some of their minds.


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## hankster

Dyno, I completely agree with you on that point. That also brings up an interesting point in my arguement against "handout" motors. With handout motors the person that invests 10s (or even 100s or 1000s) of hours learning how to best tune stock motors will have a decided advantage against the person that isn't very good at tuning motors. If it is a "bring your own" motor race, anyone can "buy" a high quality tuned motor from any number of motor tuners.

Not having handouts gives the racer a choice, they can save some bucks but invest a lot of time learning to tune a motor, thus have more bucks for tires, etc. but less time learning to drive or tune a chassis. Or they can spend the bucks on motors and have more time learning to tune a chassis and learning to drive.

Overall, let's face it, if we aren't spending the money on motors, we'll spend it elsewhere. The vast majority of us have a limited RC budget and we'll darned well spend that budget be it on motors, tires, chassis parts or whatever. What we don't have an unlimited supply of is time... it's how we best choose to use that time is what will make the difference!


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## fuzzchop

*novak 4300*

I believe the 4300 to very close to a stock motor when in a touring car .I found that it is totally different to drive since there is no braking when you leave off.i also raced the 4300 in offroad and there it is way better than a stock motor I had to run it in limited mode to get traction.


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## infrontracing

Our 2 local tracks have been racing brushless motors since Novak first made them available . It caught on like a wildfire around here. We have been racing them in Custom works sprint cars and intimidators, touring cars, stadium trucks, and pan cars. They have made racing so much better. We have shattered track records previously held by brushed motored classes. And its because we have the time and money to spend on set-up instead of constant motor maintenance. We have ran into a few rare problems like the magnet coming loose from the shaft but all problems were immediatly fixed free of charge by novak. In most cases they just send you a new sealed system new in the box. These systems are completely different as far as gearing is concerned. We found that in the sedans (which we ran 4 cell against stock 6 cell) we needed to stack and keep stacking on gear to get the speed up to par. The cars kept getting faster and faster and unlike brushed motors, the torque and low end just kept increasing. The drag of the magnets are an advantage in brushed motors for sure though. I guess thats where the got the saying "slow is fast" 
I hope to see brushless roar approved. Im sure it will hurt businesses like Trinity, but they have sucked enough money out of my(and every one else's) wallet to survive im sure.


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## okracer

we race them with the brushed motors here and people have used them since march and havent done anything to them cept run um and thats onroad and off


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## infrontracing

Yeah, for the most part we have not had problems with them. When the systems first came out we had a couple people set them up wrong and they burnt them up as soon as they turned them on. But as long as you follow the set up directions it no biggie. And like I said, novak is great about warranty work.


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## kevinm

Dawn Sanchez said:


> ... There are 5 manufacturers following the basic set of guidelines we have established and will put into place for the next rule book. ....


Would you care to name them? I'm sure the Novak is the one it's based on. The only other ones I've found or heard about are Hacker and Kontronik, but it's not clear from their web sites if their motors meet the spec. I can't even tell if Kontronik has one that's car-sized.


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## hankster

I believe that Orion also has a brushless motor.


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## OVAL4EVER

I for one am ready to give brushless a try, some day soon. I mean for $240, or so for everything, and motors last close to forever..a no brainer.
for those who claim this is expensive, who are you kidding, I just bought a new keyance speedo, for $200, a new sotcker will cost about 25-35 bucks, with one change of springs, and brushes, I am at a tie with brushless in cost. Now forget what I spent on the lathe an all, just figure the exra motor you need, or 2 or 3 etc. and cost keeps going up.
If Roar and the other bodies, if they follow, keep tight reigns on the spec for different class motors, we can probaly rest assured that peformance will be governed somewhat like they did when timing limits and all came into play.

LI poly really dosent have more rip at all BTW, it has major amps, for the size, IE run time, cuple that with the fact a lipoly you might run in a MINI T, which puts out 7 some volts, is about the size of 8-10 business cards stckd on top of each other, and weighs, less than one AA cell.
you can run all night in 4 min heats on a saturday when you charged on wedsday. ..basicly, if the technolegy comes to us, it will make bateries cheeper, races can only get to be a certain length, or you would spend all weekend to run the classes your track has now.
In theroy you would see the turbo 35 gfx's disaper, in favor of a simple LI poly charger, and you might have two bateries, just so you have a spare.
no more cycling, or zapping, deadshorting, etc, just tun the chassis, like electric was intended to be from the start, especialy stock. 
If ROAR and the other bodies got together and aproached the manufacture, to tell them, we want this for a stock class, in a tamperproff, form, this would be easy, to do. with a warenty, that is void if a seal is damaged or missing,
or through tech, a special seal, maybe with a holigram image, that if distorted, you canot run it..period.
Mow you have accomplished what stock racing was intended to be....a race of driving and tuning skills.....tires would be the only real cost factor..no dyno, no big expensive chargers, or battery mainteainence gear, just one system, a couple of batteries, and a charger.....hmm sounds kinds like back around 86' or how it seamed to be back then.

for those who say "if we go too brushless I will quite" well I say, "sorry you feel that way...mind the door on your way out".....I mean finaly something with a great potential to HELP the hobby grow....I know change bring fear, fear of the unknown, and all, but do you realize how many people come to a track, they heard about, that people have a bast racing little cars, to see if they might want to give it a try...then are scared away buy all the people, (my self included, I'm guilty) with thousands of dollars in high tech go fast gear filling a pit or two...most of those folks figure, man I might as well get into raceing real cars, for all that expence.
NOW eliminate the dynos, big expensive chargers, and battery trays, and what do we have left? a simple charger, some tools, and a soildering iron, for a repair, if needed....I for one have 15 stock motors in rotation, that is a lot of greenbacks in motors, I didnt buy them all at once, but I didn't buy them to impress people either, I bought them to help me stay competative, if they had cost 25 each, I have $375 invested just in motors, and as I said before $200..In one speedo, I have another I spent $180 one......that is $740 total, for two cars, one for paved, one for carpet.....for brushless I would have under $500 in both cars power plants...for an indentical investment as above I would have an entire spare system, that only requires, I not abuse it, for maintenance.
I alos sell motors, and accecories for a living, and have to admit, I'd feel like a chump, trying to convince other to stay away from BL motors...the hobby busniss will still be there, it will simply shift gears, bearing will be around for a long time, as will tires, tuning aids, parts, etc.
Hank and I rember the days when the family car had to be tuned up twice a year to keep it running right, now we have cars that go 100K mile on a set of plugs.....this is R/C's graduation into it's version of electronic ignition...thats about the size of it...people then scoffed, why replace a $4.00 set of point with a $200 dollar electoro gadget.......anyone one care to go back?


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## BradJ

You'll command more respect with some decent spelling skills.


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## b4wizard

oval4ever,
I wouldn't dump all those high tech chargers and dischargers just yet. From what I hear even if everybody goes brushless, then everyone will be wanting those high voltage cells and runtime, like they do now. So really if you think about it the only way your coming out is on the motors, brushes, springs. Not everyone has dynos.
I've heard of some people running the LI poly batteries in planes, only to have them start fires and burn up a bunch of stuff. Weather it was the charger or something else they did, I don't know. 
There may be a day when there is nothing but brushless, but until then I have no problem with the way things are. Sure they take the guess work out of the motor deal, but thats about all they do. You will still have people with good packs and people with great packs. Usually after I have run a couple of motors I give them to someone that may be a little down on power or theirs is just worn out.


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## hock

NO motor maintence how boring is that! This is a hobby, That means you spend time with it. I enjoy sitting in my basement to try and get the motor to work well. If I wanted to show up at the just put it down and run I would get a car from radio shack. I have not tried brushless but am not interested in it. I welcome a class for it but I am against the dumbing down effect RTR and maintence free motors are trying to racers today


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## Dustin

I personally would love to give brushless a try. The thing is that you can't tweak your motor, and there is no maintinence. I think it is great that it is maintenence free but that gets boring. Besides if you had $250 you my as well but a Matt Francis 2! :thumbsup:


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## Dustin

twitch0606 said:


> and u said i needed to pay attetion in class :jest: again here is u -> :tongue:


gee that made sence!

attetion? I hope you mean attention! :jest:


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## TOYMINATOR

hock said:


> NO motor maintence how boring is that! This is a hobby, That means you spend time with it. I enjoy sitting in my basement to try and get the motor to work well. If I wanted to show up at the just put it down and run I would get a car from radio shack. I have not tried brushless but am not interested in it. I welcome a class for it but I am against the dumbing down effect RTR and maintence free motors are trying to racers today


I respect your opinion,I look at it as a really fast!!!!!!!!! spec. class Having a brushless lets you focus on your vehicle's setup and driving versus building motors and maintaining them. I go to the race track to play, not work,like I do all week.
I have a dyno I like to go fast. But I also like to go to the race track and socialise and relax with my buddies. I like my brushless a lot, Especially Outdoors. This will save people lots!!!!!! of money Too!! 30+packs and still running good. I can run with the gas trucks and beat them on the race track!! :thumbsup:


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## TOYMINATOR

infrontracing said:


> Our 2 local tracks have been racing brushless motors since Novak first made them available . It caught on like a wildfire around here. We have been racing them in Custom works sprint cars and intimidators, touring cars, stadium trucks, and pan cars. They have made racing so much better. We have shattered track records previously held by brushed motored classes. And its because we have the time and money to spend on set-up instead of constant motor maintenance. We have ran into a few rare problems like the magnet coming loose from the shaft but all problems were immediatly fixed free of charge by novak. In most cases they just send you a new sealed system new in the box. These systems are completely different as far as gearing is concerned. We found that in the sedans (which we ran 4 cell against stock 6 cell) we needed to stack and keep stacking on gear to get the speed up to par. The cars kept getting faster and faster and unlike brushed motors, the torque and low end just kept increasing. The drag of the magnets are an advantage in brushed motors for sure though. I guess thats where the got the saying "slow is fast"
> I hope to see brushless roar approved. Im sure it will hurt businesses like Trinity, but they have sucked enough money out of my(and every one else's) wallet to survive im sure.


Well it's nice to see that it is catching on. I agree with you 100%!! :thumbsup:


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## TOYMINATOR

Novack GT-7 =$140.00
4 stock brushed motors =$120.00
misc. Brushes and springs =$60.00
total to conservatively race a indoor season =$320.00





1 $230.00 Novack brushless motor system =Priceless!!!!!!!!!!!!! :roll:


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## infrontracing

I used to go on about my brushless motors in these forums a year and a half ago when we first started racing them at our local track. And I would get critisized and laughed off the forum. They said - those are not roar leagal so who cares- and nobody runs them at my track- Well they are gonna be roar legal now! And more and more people at tracks everywhere are racing them. I think they can co-exist with brushed motors. We have made it work at our track. The die hard brush guys like thier brushes and thats fine. I can respect that. I like running against brushed mods because while im tweaking my chassis between heats an making it handle like a slot car, the brush guys are changing motors , brushes, etc...make my job that much easier.


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## infrontracing

Thats just outdoor racing though. Im sad to say that I cant make my sedan go as fast with a brushless as it will with brushed. I can gain a lap or so by using a stock brushed rather that a 4 cell brushless set up. Its actually slower and heavier but its faster on the lap timer. And thats what counts.


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## Dustin

TOYMINATOR said:


> Novack GT-7 =$140.00
> 4 stock brushed motors =$120.00
> misc. Brushes and springs =$60.00
> total to conservatively race a indoor season =$320.00
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1 $230.00 Novack brushless motor system =Priceless!!!!!!!!!!!!! :roll:


I would love to get a brushless system but man their expencive!


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## hankster

No more expensive then a new high end ESC and brushed mod motor (as shown above).


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## TOYMINATOR

hankster said:


> No more expensive then a new high end ESC and brushed mod motor (as shown above).


Thank you almighty hankster!! :jest:


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## Dustin

I know but I already have everything except for the 4 motors.


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## Dustin

[edited] 
Please stay on topic and take this private conversation to email. Thanks.


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## hankster

Please stay on topic and take this private conversation to email. Thanks.


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## AJS

I was able to talk with Charlie from Novak this weekend at the Paved Oval Nats, as well as watch the cars run and talk to the drivers as well. Novak brought several systems for a demonstration class and allowed those that wanted to run the system a chance to without having to purchase it. 

I was very impressed with the system, they ran flawlessly and all the drivers that I talked to that were running them said that it was great. Most said that they were probably going to get one. 

The system that Novak brought was the 5800 and the cars were withing 1 lap of the 19 turn cars, pretty impressive.

I'm going to do some more research and will probably join the Brushless generation.

There seems to be lots of false rumors about these systems, like being able to go in and change all the setting, according to Novak, NOT possible.

I would personally rather spend my time working on the chassis than rebuilding a motor and hope that it is a good one.


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## BradJ

That would probably keep me in the sport, but I want some proof that there's no tinkering or if there is I wanna know how.


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## kevinm

infrontracing said:


> Thats just outdoor racing though. Im sad to say that I cant make my sedan go as fast with a brushless as it will with brushed. I can gain a lap or so by using a stock brushed rather that a 4 cell brushless set up. Its actually slower and heavier but its faster on the lap timer. And thats what counts.


  Why would you run 4 cells in a sedan? Is the oval 4-cell disease spreading to touring cars? :devil:


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## hock

kevinm said:


> Why would you run 4 cells in a sedan? Is the oval 4-cell disease spreading to touring cars? :devil:


IMHO To keep sedan from getting anymore expensive it may have to go to 4-cell. think of all the more money you would save on broken a-arms and how much longer would the tires last. Run time is not a issue anymore also how much closer would racing be. 

Off subject I know so I step off ther soap box


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## infrontracing

Ok...We dont have a mod sedan class at our track. Our indoor carpet track is decent size but you have to have a huge track to take advantage of mod set up. So the brushless guys are forced to either run 6 cell with each other. Or run 4 cell and run with the stock brushed guys. We found that you can make a 4 cell brushless go faster (low end and top end) than a stock motor set-up. But with the loss of the weight from the other two cells, you cant put the power to the ground and the car is unstable. 

We were approx. a 25 or 26 pinion on stock brushed set-up and with the brushless we ended up running between a 39 to a 43 pinion. Those numbers are different with every car of course. But instead of the motor getting hot and losing torque, it just got faster and had more torque. 

The brushed set-up has the advantage of drag from the motor to slow you when entering a corner. The brushless is completely free spinning. No drag.


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## zsamples

Sorry this is off topic,
But is allen going to allow brushless again this year, infrontracing? Later--Zack


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## hock

Charlie From novak said it was imposible to change the setting on these units. I find that nothing is imposible. Leave it to americain ingenuity and shortly there will be a web site than you can download software or buy instruction or the the unit in for tweaking. Just Like cable boxes or copyrighted software. there is a way I'm sure just give it time


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## rhodopsine

hock said:


> Charlie From novak said it was imposible to change the setting on these units. I find that nothing is imposible. Leave it to americain ingenuity and shortly there will be a web site than you can download software or buy instruction or the the unit in for tweaking. Just Like cable boxes or copyrighted software. there is a way I'm sure just give it time


If the program is hardcoded on the processor chip, well, then yes it would be impossible to modify without physically changing the chip on the board. As for pirating it, then again, granted enoug time and resources, someone would probably be able to come up with a modified board. Would it be worth it, moneywise, is another thing. You would need a sizable bit of engineering, capability to modify SMT devices and on...

Martin Paradis


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## burbs

why not have novak make a checker.... something to hook up to it to make siuire it still holds the factory settings.. ie power ect.. would be easy to do that


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## schmelme

I hope brushless becomes the industry standard for racing period.


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## Carbon

I have the Novak system since it was first available and I would say it currently has around 350-400 packs through it. (i run offroad truck) Last weekend I finally had to do some motor maintenance... The bearing in the endcap gave up the mustard. I replaced the bearing, (about 5 minutes worth of work) and was back out in no time. I had to rob the bearing from a worn out brushed motor. So my total cost with the brushless system for the year or so I have owned it is only the initial cost of the purchace. The bearing was free.  Over that time frame, my driving has improved considerability. Less motor maintenance = more time tweaking the rest of the car = better driver = less breaking parts = more fun!!

I would like to also mention that the motor has never droped off on power. It has ran consisentaly (sp?) pack after pack, week after week, and month after month. Novak did a superb job with this system.


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## oval racer 2

*brushless pan car*

we have been running 6-cell novak 5800 in pan cars sat our track since the summer of 2003. we started a class shortly after the systems came out on the market. we have ran on 200 ft.concrete banked and 225ft. flat carpet.
from what we have noticed the novak in limited mode is still faster than stock brushed motors. we have had no failures with the system in the pan cars. we have noticed that the car will hesitate at times when you accelerate of the corner, in limited mode only. none of us have replaced bearings since we got them. we race 2-3 weekends a month so it has had its share of runtime. we all dropped 4-5 teeth on the pinion compared to stock brushed setup.
the modified mode is quick as well. we fought forward bite issues when we tried this mode. the rear tires would spin all the way down straight. we could have changed set up probably to get it better, but it is fast enough in limited mode for most people.

i love not having to work on the motor all the time!!!!
i can concentrate on driving and set up more now.
now we just need to vote it into "arcor" for next year, how bout it jb!!


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## sracingcells

I think it will be great having a bl class, so we can concentrate on chassis setup and driving skills. I personaly had a Hacker system and it was extremely powerfull and it was great on battery life and I didn't do anything to maintain it. Hopefully the factory drivers wont be able to alter the speed controls for only their own benefit. That is my only concern since there are a couple that are at my local track.


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## Intellion

*Good For the Hobby = +++!*

I have been in and out of RC Car racing since 1985. I have always loved this hobby, but hated the large expense. I started out with Tamiya plastic cars (Fox, Super Shot) and moved on to racers (RC-10, Top Cat, JRx2, JRxPRO, XXX, XXX4) with lots of other RC cars in between. 

I like wrenching on my cars. I have cut my own chassis out of graphite, scratch built cars from spare parts, experimented with new shock oils, wound my own motors etc. For me, half of the fun of the hobby is working on the car. Just like everybody else, I went through the process of buying graphite this, titanium that, 10+ motors, and a BOX full of tires. I thought driving fast was all about a "modified" car, with some driving skills.

I got into compeditive racing around 1988 or so. I'm from Chico Ca, which is close to Sacramento. So I used to race at the same Track as Mark and Matt Francis. I saw them on a regular basis, they were both sponsored by Team associated at the time. On one particular race, RC Mania III at Mini Wheels Indoor track in Sacramento, Matt was all about 2wd modified and stock, Mark raced 4wd. Both were totally dominant and well known even then. I remember Matt's red RC-10 speeding around the track and thinking "man that thing drives like it's on rails, I have to see what his setup is." Shortly after, I did see it...* it was box-stock.*

That blew my mind, no other way to describe it. I thought it was all about expensive parts and lots of $$. Matt destroyed everybody with driving skills and a perfect setup for that track. From that point on, my whole outlook on RC racing changed. All that cash I blew on my car was probably not needed. He had a car that cost 1/4 as much as mine, and beat me by 2 laps! I ended taking 1st in the Amateur class that day, Matt won 2wd, Mark won 4wd getting 15 laps, when NOBODY else did more then 14.

From then on, I started really asking myself "now, how much is this new part really going to help me?" Most of the time, the answer is not much. I have learned to dial in my car better and drive better, as well as spend less $$ on my car overall. I can tell you this much, my enjoyment of the hobby has gone way up.

These days, races last 5 min, not 4. Cars can run batteries and motors that are far too fast for most tracks, so it's more about learning to drive AT those speeds. Box stock cars are so well made that they are competitive on national levels box stock. All of this allows drivers to buy a car, and learn to set up and drive. Not throw hundreds of dollars at a setup before it's "race worthy."

The Brushless motor system is EXACTLY this same mentality. Lower overall cost, far less maintenance, and more motor then many tracks require. These are even the first generations of brushless motors! I'm married now, got a new house, lots more expenses then I had as a teenager. I have wanted to get back into RC Racing heavy for the last 3 years, but I didn't. I avoided it for ONE REASON!

*I did not want to drop hundreds of dollars on motors/batteries all the time to stay competitive.*

Brushless motor systems is my ticket back into RC racing. I can maintain a fast car, yet spend my money on "replacement parts" and "race registration money." I can maintain that lesson I learned from Matt Francis himself, years ago as a teenager... Get a solid car, dial it in right, and DRIVE IT.

It's my personal belief that anybody who wants to "spend extra $ and time tweeking their car" is the type of person who mainly wants an edge over everybody else, with their wallet giving them that edge. While it IS fun to win, and I DO understand that desire, I think it has a negative effect on the Hobby overall. Because people realize "If I want to have a chance at winning, I'll need to drop a grand into my stuff AFTER I buy the car." That keeps people away, and let's face it... what fun is it to win, when nobody is there to lose?

*I'm 100% in favor of Brushless motor systems becoming ROAR legal for the benefit of this hobby as a whole!*

Edwin Tracy
PASD BIOS Engineer
Intel Corporation


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## RcDinge

I know nothing about cutting motors let alone working on them. Sounds like the brushless system is for me!


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## pe_z

*I believe in brushless*

Hi,

I'm a complete newbie. I come from the computer hobby (An always changing hobby, u can't never be completely up to date there is always something new). And brushless seem to be the new frontier for motors. If they come standard, and you can't tweak them, well then races will be won for those who tweak better the rest of the car, and the best runners.:thumbsup:


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## David Washburn

yea they are the newest things on the market, and they dont need tweaking they are way to fast for any track pretty much, so in that case it is all about driver so here is the rule. he who drives the best wins!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Rob Mirsky

I am glad to see Brushless getting into the Roar system. It will only lead to better racing. People will be closer performance wise, you will have more time to work on car setup at the track, not getting your motor ready for another round. But the biggest thing I would like to see happen is longer race times. I think that would add more to the fun factor. 

I have been into r/c since '85, and I can say I have been ready for a long time. Off to pick up my Novak SS system for my B4....


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## rcgen

Do you guys know if the current brushless systems out there would be ROAR legal for 2005? I am/was running the Novak 4300 with 19t for three races but someone complained so I guess I have to wait  plus it doesn't help I am the only one with one.


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## rcgen

I guess no one knows...thats a bummer


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## hankster

Did you try emailing Novak?


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## kevinm

rcgen said:


> Do you guys know if the current brushless systems out there would be ROAR legal for 2005? I am/was running the Novak 4300 with 19t for three races but someone complained so I guess I have to wait  plus it doesn't help I am the only one with one.


I'm 99% sure that the ROAR specs are based exactly on the Novak systems, so they should be legal. Dawn Sanchez of ROAR stated (back on page 3) that there are 5 companies that agreed with the rules. Unfortunately, she didn't name them.


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