# Could Moebius Models make better star trek kits?



## miraclefan (Apr 11, 2009)

I saw their new Battlestar Galactica Viper and I wasn't going to buy it, but after seeing one up close I'm going to buy several! And a thought occurred to me, Could Moebius make better star trek kits?


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## HabuHunter32 (Aug 22, 2009)

I think Moebius would do just about any kit better than the compitition! We'll have to wait and see but from the people involved in the design of the upcoming Round 2 1/350 TOS USS Enterprise. I think she's in good hands. Could Moebius do better on that one....time will tell!


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## RSN (Jul 29, 2008)

*YES, they could!!!*


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## flyingfrets (Oct 19, 2001)

It seems to me that Moebius excels at what they do because their love of the subject matter is rivaled only by our own. 

Yes, it's a business, but producing kits that we not only want, but doing them *right* is a large part of their success.


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## Guy Schlicter (May 3, 2004)

flyingfrets said:


> It seems to me that Moebius excels at what they do because their love of the subject matter is rivaled only by our own.
> 
> Yes, it's a business, but producing kits that we not only want, but doing them *right* is a large part of their success.


Very well said!! I totally agree.


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## mach7 (Mar 25, 2002)

I think Moebius would do a fine job, But I have no complaints at all with R2.

They both produce nice kits. Moebius produces nice figures and expensive vehicles. R2 is re-releasing a bunch of kits from our past and a few nice new kits at much lower prices.

I don't build figures (except for the R2 Spock) and generally won't spend over $70 on a kit so I only have a few Moebius kits.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Well, I think the R2 1/1000 refit is darn near perfect, so I see no reason to think Moebius would do any better (or worse).


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## Model Man (Oct 1, 2007)

All the 'original' polar lights and R2 kits are as good as anything Moebius has done. That R2 is releasing piles of other companies old, and perhaps crappily engineered, kits cannot be factored in. If Moebius had the AMT license, for example, it would still be the same poor (or good) AMT kit.


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## Zombie_61 (Apr 21, 2004)

Model Man said:


> All the 'original' polar lights and R2 kits are as good as anything Moebius has done.


With all due respect, I disagree. I've built Polar Lights' Wolf Man (the Bowen sculpt) and Robby the Robot, and the engineering on both kits was seriously flawed--poor part fit, gaps, detail on one part that was missing from the mating part, soft or missing detail...you get the idea. The engineering on the Moebius kits, however, is nearly flawless--parts fit together so well that the seams almost disappear during test fitting, detail from one part matches perfectly to mating parts, etc.. Both companies produce great looking kits, but the Polar Lights kits I've built needed a _*lot*_ more work to get them there; by comparison, Moebius' kits put _themselves_ together.


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

Zombie_61 said:


> With all due respect, I disagree. I've built Polar Lights' Wolf Man (the Bowen sculpt) and Robby the Robot, and the engineering on both kits was seriously flawed--poor part fit, gaps, detail on one part that was missing from the mating part, soft or missing detail...you get the idea. The engineering on the Moebius kits, however, is nearly flawless--parts fit together so well that the seams almost disappear during test fitting, detail from one part matches perfectly to mating parts, etc.. Both companies produce great looking kits, but the Polar Lights kits I've built needed a _*lot*_ more work to get them there; by comparison, Moebius' kits put _themselves_ together.


in addition, I respectfully partially disagree that moebius is "always " better..case in point: the LIS space pod..At least my own, that I built,
was badly warped,and not "nearly flawless" and the instruction sheet left much to be desired..Mind you, I have just about every moebius kit thats been put out, and I love em, and I am a member of thier club as well, and am looking forward to thier future releases..but the point is that both companies are not perfect, and even moebius' kits may have a few inconsistencies..but in the end, its great that both companies are up and running...and I will keep buying what they put out, flaws and all..interesting about the PL robby kit...The one I built from its original release was Perfect, and went together like a charm...

Z


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## irishtrek (Sep 17, 2005)

they would have to be able to get the Star Trek license from Paramount first.
And right now R2 has it.


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## Zombie_61 (Apr 21, 2004)

Zathros said:


> in addition, I respectfully partially disagree that moebius is "always " better..case in point: the LIS space pod..At least my own, that I built,
> was badly warped,and not "nearly flawless" and the instruction sheet left much to be desired..Mind you, I have just about every moebius kit thats been put out, and I love em, and I am a member of thier club as well, and am looking forward to thier future releases..but the point is that both companies are not perfect, and even moebius' kits may have a few inconsistencies..but in the end, its great that both companies are up and running...and I will keep buying what they put out, flaws and all..interesting about the PL robby kit...The one I built from its original release was Perfect, and went together like a charm...
> 
> Z


I defer to your experience and knowledge. Quite honestly, I have very few Moebius kits because most of their kits are simply too large for my meager display space; as such, I have no experience with their _Lost in Space_ and _Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea_ kits. I wholeheartedly agree that no company or kit is perfect, whether it's the kit itself, the instruction sheet, or the decals. And I would buy any kit that gets my attention regardless of the difficulties involved in assembly and/or manufacturer.


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## Moebius (Mar 15, 2007)

It always makes me wonder why someone would get a warped kit and not return it or get replacement parts. Did everyone have this complaint? I don't recall any complaints on warped Space Pods, nor requests for any major parts due to warpage. The instructions are a different story. The vast majority of kits were sold with no complaints on this. We did receive some, and we changed the way we wrote and printed them. It was our SECOND kit. Things have changed. We have always asked that if there is a complaint, complain to the people that make the kit, not to the boards that have no ability to fix it or replace it.


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## Model Man (Oct 1, 2007)

I just got this kit saturday and posted the video review in the Moebius forum. I didn't see any warpage on this one, but the directions stunned me insofar as there are six pictures or so and, at a glance, none looked like obvious parts in the box. I'm sure more cozytime will elucidate what's there. 

I didn't read the text in between the few pix, but considering the amount of parts the directions seemed utterly deficient on the graphics level. Parts pix w/ part #'s and some arrows showing where they go are the expected norm, not a tome that is useless to anyone that can't read english -which is most of the world, but perhaps not most of the moebius audience.

Maybe assembly is so intuitive that imagery isn't needed?


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## harrier1961 (Jun 18, 2009)

*Could Moebius Models make better star trek kits*

Personally, the LIS POD was the first Moebius kit I got and I think it is fantastic. I plan on buying a couple more.

Could the instructions have been better? Yes, but I have seen a whole lot worse and they are doable. Besides, who reads instructions? WHIMPS!!

Frank, I would like to thank you very much for all the models that you guys produce. Not all of them are my cup of tea, but they are all apprciated by all who buy them I am sure and the reviews seem to be great.

Matter of fact, while I am not figure modeler, I did buy the Green Goblin and plan on Spidey some time in the future. Awesome kit.

Andy:thumbsup:

Also, can't wait to get my hands on the VIPER and will also get the BIG G when it comes out (or maybe two or three of them!)


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## Ductapeforever (Mar 6, 2008)

Why this thread still exists is strange in itself, for it must be understood how the kit industry works. 

Rule # 1.
First of all, it is a business. Manufacturers make products to make money. 

Rule # 2.
Make products that are likely to sell a lot of units, obscure subjects like the wierd vehicle that appeared in episode # 3 of "My Sister the Boat" that went of the air after the sixth episode, isn't likely to be produced as a kit I don't care how much you like it.

Rule # 3
Many subjects, especially anything from TV, Movies, Comic Books, and any other media for entertainment have to be licensed. Not just by the Studio who produced it, but by everyone who owns the rights, from the Company who made it, to the studio who distributed it, to the Network it aired on, to the actors who's likeness appears on the art work,or as a figure in the kit. This takes time and money,...lots of money. Some studios charge a pretty penney for the rights to some subjects and can be priced too high for a model manufacturer to make, no matter how popular it is.
Certain companies have exclusive rights to a property like Star Trek, and it doesnt matter that we think Mobius could make a bigger ,better, more detailed model kit than Company "X". If "Company "X" has the rights, then only company "X" can produce kits until such time as the license expires.

Rule # 3.
Models take sometimes longer than a year to produce. So, just cause they announce a kit doesn't mean it will be on the shelves anytime soon. Be Patient!

Rule # 4.
The more features a kit has the more expensive it is to make. The higher the parts count, the more complex the decal sheet, figures, photo etch, etc. all factor into the higher price of the kit. So, be happy the aftermarket folks do what they do, and the manufacturers keep the base price of a kit reasonable. That way those of you who want to build out of the box can do so, and those of us who want the bells and whistles can buy em if we want. It's no different than buying a brand new snazzy car, the base model is fine for most folks, and the limited edition sports model with the godawful big engine and low gas mileage is more for the aquired taste. Just be thankful we have folks like Moebius and Round 2 making the kits we all wanted as kids, shame it took so long.


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

Moebius said:


> It always makes me wonder why someone would get a warped kit and not return it or get replacement parts. Did everyone have this complaint? I don't recall any complaints on warped Space Pods, nor requests for any major parts due to warpage. The instructions are a different story. The vast majority of kits were sold with no complaints on this. We did receive some, and we changed the way we wrote and printed them. It was our SECOND kit. Things have changed. We have always asked that if there is a complaint, complain to the people that make the kit, not to the boards that have no ability to fix it or replace it.


Quite allright, Frank..I spent some extra time on it and fixed the issue...I'm not in the habit of "complaining"..I was just pointing out that kits from any company can have issues, and as an experienced modeler and one that enjoys the hobby,that one should try to fix the problem first, and only if it couldnt be fixed, then contact the company..I didnt start a thread about it, and I built it last year..this was the very first time I mentioned it..the Pod sits on my shelf in great condition..and I'm glad you put it out..


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## Magesblood (May 12, 2008)

I like Moebius kits. I like AMT kits as well. Of the kits I've done, I can't really tell the difference. I think I've done four Moebius kits as compared to countless AMT kits.

I don't like Moebius' instructions though they are printed in color. That's my only gripe. Some of the diagrams are way too small and of the kits I've built, a lot haven't been clear (a lot of trial and error, "oh, that's what they're telling me to do") and no color call-outs. Granted, the instructions _are_ printed in color but sometimes the photography is so dark you can't tell what color a part is. Hardly had that problem if at all with AMT.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Oh, I was vocal in criticizing the early instruction sheets. Thing needed to be a LOT clearer. And, on later kits, they are! So, no complaints any more.


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## Moebius (Mar 15, 2007)

Magesblood said:


> I like Moebius kits. I like AMT kits as well. Of the kits I've done, I can't really tell the difference. I think I've done four Moebius kits as compared to countless AMT kits.
> 
> I don't like Moebius' instructions though they are printed in color. That's my only gripe. Some of the diagrams are way too small and of the kits I've built, a lot haven't been clear (a lot of trial and error, "oh, that's what they're telling me to do") and no color call-outs. Granted, the instructions _are_ printed in color but sometimes the photography is so dark you can't tell what color a part is. Hardly had that problem if at all with AMT.


There is a color chart in every kit that is part of the instructions. With more than one type of paint listed. No need to look at the colors in the images to try and guess, the chart mentions the color used for each part.


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## Magesblood (May 12, 2008)

I knew it...


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## derric1968 (Jun 13, 2003)

Ductapeforever said:


> Why this thread still exists is strange in itself, for it must be understood how the kit industry works.


Please don't take this the wrong way, but I think you are completely missing the point of this thread. No one is suggesting that Moebius should start making Star Trek kits. It's a simple, hypothetical, "what if" question.

_IF_ Moebius made Star Trek kits, _COULD_ they do it better than Round 2?

It's that simple.

As for my answer, it's a tough call. The 1/1000 Enterprise and the Viper Mk II are pretty good proof BOTH companies are doing a great job with making *newly tooled* vehicle kits. Moebius seems to have the edge when it comes to figure kits, but that may simply be because they've done a whole bunch of them, while Round 2 has yet to produce any new figure kits (re-pops not included).


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## j2man (Jun 18, 1999)

My pod was a little warpy, but went together well enough not to have to glue all the parts together. Which leaves me great display with the ability to modify in the future. I really appreciate have the kit and all the LIS kits form Moebius. I told Frank that my chariot canopy had a small fracture in it. He suggested I return it. I said, no, it adds to the charm of a real chariot that's 40 years old! Just like it so much, it didn't bother me at all that it had a hairline fracture. Just happy to have the kits....................


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## PhantomStranger (Apr 20, 2009)

Could Round 2 make better Star Wars kits?


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## RSN (Jul 29, 2008)

I think what Moebius did with the Jupiter II, compared to the Polar Lights now Round 2, kit, shows their eye for detail is much better. I dare say if they were to have a whack at ANY Star Trek model, the difference would be obvious. The question is, are you willing to pay for the quality? For me, the answer is, YES!


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## Asmenoth (Feb 27, 2009)

PhantomStranger said:


> Could Round 2 make better Star Wars kits?


Than Fine Molds...no. Than AMT, very much so. I know this was asked in jest, just thought I would answer.


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## PhantomStranger (Apr 20, 2009)

The funny thing is that most of the Polar Lights models developed under Playing Mantis/RC2 were supervised by the same person doing the Moebius stuff now. You don't like the old PL Jupiter 2 compared to the new one from Moebius but both were handled by the same guy. I'm sure time and understanding has allowed him to do a better job the second time around. That's usually how it goes for everyone I think. 

The only Round 2 kit you can really compare anything else (Moebius, old PL, Revell or even Fine Molds) to right now is the new Enterprise Refit. Everything else minus a few tweaks here or there has already been engineered for Round 2 kits. We make fixes to things where we can on existing kits and hopefully that puts a nice thumb print on them.


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## jaws62666 (Mar 25, 2009)

PhantomStranger said:


> The funny thing is that most of the Polar Lights models developed under Playing Mantis/RC2 were supervised by the same person doing the Moebius stuff now. You don't like the old PL Jupiter 2 compared to the new one from Moebius but both were handled by the same guy. I'm sure time and understanding has allowed him to do a better job the second time around. That's usually how it goes for everyone I think.
> 
> The only Round 2 kit you can really compare anything else (Moebius, old PL, Revell or even Fine Molds) to right now is the new Enterprise Refit. Everything else minus a few tweaks here or there has already been engineered for Round 2 kits. We make fixes to things where we can on existing kits and hopefully that puts a nice thumb print on them.


Hey phantom are the snap kit trek kits on the way yet. Has the batmobile reached the states as well? please let me know . i am sure we are all really anxious to start our builds.


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## PhantomStranger (Apr 20, 2009)

jaws62666 said:


> Hey phantom are the snap kit trek kits on the way yet. Has the batmobile reached the states as well? please let me know . i am sure we are all really anxious to start our builds.


The 1:2500 snappers are still being fine tuned. Converting them from glue to snap has been a challenge in a couple cases. I would hope they reach stores by the end of May, possibly June though.

Standard Batmobile glue kits should reach our warehouse any time now. The collectors tin version should be out between mid May and mid June.

We are taking steps to correct our scheduling problems. By the fall, we should be caught up and back on schedule from then on barring anything weird along the way. (weird happens sometimes though)


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## jaws62666 (Mar 25, 2009)

PhantomStranger said:


> The 1:2500 snappers are still being fine tuned. Converting them from glue to snap has been a challenge in a couple cases. I would hope they reach stores by the end of May, possibly June though.
> 
> Standard Batmobile glue kits should reach our warehouse any time now. The collectors tin version should be out between mid May and mid June.
> 
> We are taking steps to correct our scheduling problems. By the fall, we should be caught up and back on schedule from then on barring anything weird along the way. (weird happens sometimes though)


thanks for the heads up, hey i almost forgot is the batboat and munsters on the same truck as the batmobile


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## miraclefan (Apr 11, 2009)

PhantomStranger said:


> The 1:2500 snappers are still being fine tuned. Converting them from glue to snap has been a challenge in a couple cases. I would hope they reach stores by the end of May, possibly June though.
> 
> Standard Batmobile glue kits should reach our warehouse any time now. The collectors tin version should be out between mid May and mid June.
> 
> We are taking steps to correct our scheduling problems. By the fall, we should be caught up and back on schedule from then on barring anything weird along the way. (weird happens sometimes though)


Phantom I wanted to know when we might see pics of the 1/2500 Nu-ENTERPRISE?


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## PhantomStranger (Apr 20, 2009)

miraclefan said:


> Phantom I wanted to know when we might see pics of the 1/2500 Nu-ENTERPRISE?


Me too.:drunk:


jaws- probably. Not sure though. They should all be out around the same time.


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## Moebius (Mar 15, 2007)

PhantomStranger said:


> The funny thing is that most of the Polar Lights models developed under Playing Mantis/RC2 were supervised by the same person doing the Moebius stuff now. You don't like the old PL Jupiter 2 compared to the new one from Moebius but both were handled by the same guy. I'm sure time and understanding has allowed him to do a better job the second time around. That's usually how it goes for everyone I think.
> 
> The only Round 2 kit you can really compare anything else (Moebius, old PL, Revell or even Fine Molds) to right now is the new Enterprise Refit. Everything else minus a few tweaks here or there has already been engineered for Round 2 kits. We make fixes to things where we can on existing kits and hopefully that puts a nice thumb print on them.


There's so much more behind the story on the Jupiter 2 than the same guy handling it. Dave of course was the New Product Manager behind both, but management decisions had much more to play into those kits than Dave would have been able to effect. They were also prototyped in different shops, based on very different designs and schedules.


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## Seashark (Mar 28, 2006)

I think Round2 has been doing fine. They have gone the extra mile by not only offering re-issues but also improving upon the original moulds. The only thing that puzzles me is the need to make or 'convert' the 1K and 2500K kits snaptite - I hate snaptite.


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## Zombie_61 (Apr 21, 2004)

PhantomStranger said:


> We are taking steps to correct our scheduling problems. By the fall, we should be caught up and back on schedule from then on barring anything weird along the way. (weird happens sometimes though)


Personal opinion: I'd much rather see Round 2 take the extra time to produce a kit to the best of their abilities than rush to release a sub-standard kit simply to meet some arbitrary deadline (licensing issues and such aside, of course).


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## Dave Metzner (Jan 1, 1970)

Pardon me, But just what exactly is the point of this question?

I've been around this business for a while now and it strikes me that there is no good answer to that one!

Who makes a better kit... well first let me ask who is the judge? 
Are we letting just anyone judge regardles of their experience as a modeler or shall we limit it to modelers with a certain level of ability and experience. 
Are we going to let the figure kit guys in on this or don't they count? 
Can we find sombody without any bias who will judge everything objectively (ha! good luck on that one!)
What are the criteria by which we're going to judge models against one another - price, size, fit, accuracy (which set of drawing is accurate???) color of the plastic-Box art - Instruction sheet -your favorite subject matter...
Have the kits we're comparing been produced at the about same time with the same level of research and the same budgetary considerations - No fair judging a 20 year old model against a newley developed kit...

Shall we limit the discussion to Star Trek kits? Then the answer is really simple Moebius can't make Trek kits because we don't have a license! So then, the answer is NO Moebius can't produce a better Trek kit!

Are we going to compare J-2 kits - that's not fair either because The PL kit was produced with a retail price target that is radically different from the Moebius kit and under budgetary and scheduling restraints that were entirely different than the the Moebius kit. I can swear to that, because I am the guy who "did both"

Comparing old AMT Trek kits to Polar Lights / Round 2 modern Trek kits is like comparing apples and oranges...
RC-2 would have never allowed the large NX-01 or Refit to get to production... and had no interest at all in doing any StarTrek when Polar lights got the Trek License . as a matter of fact the only reason Polar Lights was able to get the license is because RC-2 didn't renew it! (they couldn't make money with it!)
The big Refit only happened because it ws too nearly complete to cancell when RC-2 bought Polar Lights. 
I know that because I was the guy who handled finishing up the Polar Lights kits in process after the buy-out.

I am reasonably well acquainted with the model car community and I can tell you that most of Round 2's efforts to re-issue and update some of the old AMT car kits seem to be well received by that group of builders. ( I have a couple Round 2 car kits myself and they're very nice)

I've built models for over 50 years now and I can tell you thet I have yet to find a perfect model kit - you can always find kind of flaw if you know the actual subject well enough and want to be critical enough of the kit...

Having been involved in producing kits for several years I can say that I've always tried to put the best product that I could in the boxes.. Sometimes I've been more sucessful at doing that than others...But I'm not ashamed of anything that we've put on store shelves either while I was at Polar Lights or since I've been at Moebius Models.

Now I'm going to crawl back under my rock!


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## Spockr (Sep 14, 2009)

Dave Metzner said:


> Pardon me, But just what exactly is the point of this question?
> 
> I've been around this business for a while now and it strikes me that there is no good answer to that one!
> 
> ...


Seems like a very informed opinion to me. I for one am glad both companies exist and hope each are successful for a long time to come.

I know at the end of the day that these are "businesses" but the passion clearly shows through in the high quality of both Moebius' and Round2's fine products. Great job!

Regards,
MattL


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

i agree with dave m and matt l..... this really smacks of looking gift horses in the mouth.

roll back the clock just a few years and look at the time when none of this would have been on the market at all. 

im not sure if this is a new "golden age" for models, but if not, its sure comes close. models made by modelers for modelers of the subjects we have been aching to see for decades. 

"who's better than who?" is very much akin to "blondes, brunettes, or redheads?". my answer is always "vanilla, chocolate, or strawberry: theyre all ice cream to me!"


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## PhantomStranger (Apr 20, 2009)

Zombie_61 said:


> Personal opinion: I'd much rather see Round 2 take the extra time to produce a kit to the best of their abilities than rush to release a sub-standard kit simply to meet some arbitrary deadline (licensing issues and such aside, of course).


Your opinion and the realities of the business world are polar opposites. (no pun intended) Deadlines are set with much more consideration than to just get the thing out there. 

Frank & Dave, I hope you didn't read more into my comments than is there. No ill will meant at all by my incredibly simplistic summary. I was also trying to point out how ludicrous the whole topic is.

I'll return to my trusty rock as well.

See you at Wonderfest.


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## Moebius (Mar 15, 2007)

PhantomStranger said:


> Your opinion and the realities of the business world are polar opposites. (no pun intended) Deadlines are set with much more consideration than to just get the thing out there.
> 
> Frank & Dave, I hope you didn't read more into my comments than is there. No ill will meant at all by my incredibly simplistic summary. I was also trying to point out how ludicrous the whole topic is.
> 
> ...


Yes PhantomStranger, we will be looking for you.... See you in a few weeks!


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## Zombie_61 (Apr 21, 2004)

PhantomStranger said:


> Your opinion and the realities of the business world are polar opposites. (no pun intended) Deadlines are set with much more consideration than to just get the thing out there.


I was obviously over-simplifying all of the little details that go into creating a model kit from concept to finished product, and I'll admit I have no first-hand experience in such matters (and I'm not asking for an in-depth explanation here). But from a layman's point of view it seems most model kit producers will announce a brand-new kit (or even a re-issue on occasion) by stating something to the effect of "Due in October" or "Due late 2010", and nine times out of ten that "arbitrary deadline" comes and goes with no kit in sight. Now, I understand production delays can occur for any number of reasons, and no production schedule should be open-ended. But IMO the time estimate in the _announcement_ should be "padded"; i.e., if the producer thinks the kit will be on the shelves in October, the announcement should say they'll be on the shelves in December or January to allow time for those unforeseen delays. Most customers would never know the difference, and it would lessen the likelihood of people such as yourself having to answer the inevitable and repeated "Where's the kit?" questions from impatient and anxious modelers. Just a thought.


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## mach7 (Mar 25, 2002)

Maybe I'm completely off base, and this is drifting from the original topic, But one reason for delays seems to me to be that neither R2 or Moebius controls the production run. They both have to deal with companies half way across the
world. 

Back in the day of Aurora & AMT I think they controlled production from concept to shipping. And it was all done in one or two locations, in one language.

Reading Jamie's blog on his recent trip to China was very interesting and eye opening. It's amazing that everything from engraving to packaging is done overseas. Couple that with the fact that in a recent Email exchange I had with Moebius about the Moonbus, I was told that they get shipped to the distributors from the docks as they clear customs. The distributors get them before Moebius!

With that much of the production done out of shop, delays are inevitable.
But hey, if thats what it takes to get these kits released so be it. I just love building them.

Of course this is just the ramblings of a layman who really knows nothing about the whole process.

One question for Phantom Stranger and Moebius. I'll understand if you can't answer, but who owns the molds used in the production? Is it the company in China or R2/Moebius?

Thanks

Mark


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## Edge (Sep 5, 2003)

Looking forward to any announcements at Wonderfest.

Now for another question along the same lines: "What if Eleanor Roosevelt could fly?"


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## irishtrek (Sep 17, 2005)

Zombie_61 said:


> I was obviously over-simplifying all of the little details that go into creating a model kit from concept to finished product, and I'll admit I have no first-hand experience in such matters (and I'm not asking for an in-depth explanation here). But from a layman's point of view it seems most model kit producers will announce a brand-new kit (or even a re-issue on occasion) by stating something to the effect of "Due in October" or "Due late 2010", and nine times out of ten that "arbitrary deadline" comes and goes with no kit in sight. Now, I understand production delays can occur for any number of reasons, and no production schedule should be open-ended. But IMO the time estimate in the _announcement_ should be "padded"; i.e., if the producer thinks the kit will be on the shelves in October, the announcement should say they'll be on the shelves in December or January to allow time for those unforeseen delays. Most customers would never know the difference, and it would lessen the likelihood of people such as yourself having to answer the inevitable and repeated "Where's the kit?" questions from impatient and anxious modelers. Just a thought.


I think by now we all realize that just because a kit manufcturer say a kit will be out by October 2010 it may no be out for a couple of months after the announced release date.


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## Dave P (Jan 5, 2005)

I've never understood having so much angst over a kit delivery that it would drive someone to post their impatience all over the boards. I understand being excited by a new release, but it's a hobby, and we all have at least a 10-year backlog of stuff to build.

It's not like you're waiting for a new kidney....


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## Paulbo (Sep 16, 2004)

Dave P said:


> It's not like you're waiting for a new kidney....


LOL!!


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

I actually worked out my backlog as 84 years!


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## Dave Metzner (Jan 1, 1970)

"Not Like you're waiting for a new kidney"! 
LOL 
I love it! 
That puts new kit arrival schedules in perspective pretty well!


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

one thing that nobody has mentioned that can delay the release of any product coming in from china and is totally beyond the control of the manufacturer is product testing.
thanks to the chinese companies that used paints containing lead on kids toys, now a huge number of products have to be tested before they are cleared for import, and iirc, model kits are one of them.
i know form my job as a halloween product designer that this can really bog up a release schedule.


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## PhantomStranger (Apr 20, 2009)

Zombie_61 said:


> I was obviously over-simplifying all of the little details that go into creating a model kit from concept to finished product, and I'll admit I have no first-hand experience in such matters (and I'm not asking for an in-depth explanation here). But from a layman's point of view it seems most model kit producers will announce a brand-new kit (or even a re-issue on occasion) by stating something to the effect of "Due in October" or "Due late 2010", and nine times out of ten that "arbitrary deadline" comes and goes with no kit in sight. Now, I understand production delays can occur for any number of reasons, and no production schedule should be open-ended. But IMO the time estimate in the _announcement_ should be "padded"; i.e., if the producer thinks the kit will be on the shelves in October, the announcement should say they'll be on the shelves in December or January to allow time for those unforeseen delays. Most customers would never know the difference, and it would lessen the likelihood of people such as yourself having to answer the inevitable and repeated "Where's the kit?" questions from impatient and anxious modelers. Just a thought.


Here's how _we_ do it...

We brainstorm our plan for a year's worth of product, release months etc.
We base our business plan (budget) around that.
We release news of the planned release as well as the opportunity to preorder it which helps us determine how much of a given product we will be bringing in.
We work very diligently to create the product- what changes, new tools, packaging, etc. PLUS we manage a whole line of other products (for our Forever Fun brand)
Communication to the factory is a day away. If we ask a question today, we might get the answer tomorrow. Answers often bring up more questions which take another entire day to answer. What could be settled in a phone conversation could take a few days or a week depending on everyone's "understanding".
We end up having to juggle dates because FF dates are set in stone and the dates are very concentrated in one particular part of the year. In this case if we miss a ship date, we are stuck with the product and a wounded relationship with a mass retail account.
Meanwhile, back on the model kit side a digital file doesn't work, a mockup still isn't quite right, a decal proof comes in and the color is off, a licensor sits on an approval for 2 weeks, wants us to change a legal line on an instruction sheet which we fix and resubmit and wait two more weeks for an approval, etc. Then we find out about a new great licensing opportunity and we decide to go for it but at the sacrifice of something else. (ask me about the vintage Batmobile kit at Wonderfest and I'll give you the laundry list of reasons why it was delayed six months and missed the Christmas selling season- Ouch!)
It all adds up. The staff working on these lines work their butts off and we are all proud of the end products. We are limited in manpower and we all wear many hats.

I hope I don't sound defensive because I don't mean to be. I'm just trying to give a little bit of the background and this summary barely scratches the surface of the work involved. Despite any kind of delay, product not being sold affects our business. Believe me, it hurts us more than it hurts you guys and in more ways than one. We are striving to bring out great product and deliver it when we say we will.

mach 7- In most cases, the tooling belongs to the brand, not the factory.


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## mach7 (Mar 25, 2002)

Thanks for the answer!


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## ClubTepes (Jul 31, 2002)

John P said:


> I actually worked out my backlog as 84 years!


I think mine is 504 years, 6 months, and 19 days.

I sorta think this is somewhat a silly and insulting thread.

Both companies are doing great work.

And both are light years ahead in their understanding of their customer base.

The only 'bar' that I personally feel that either Moebius or R2 hasn't reached is that of the detail and crispness obtained in a Fine Molds SW kit.

Moebius and R2 seem to be using a much softer plastic and detail is also not as crisp (because of the softer plastic?)

Since reps from both companies have looked at this thread, I'd be curious to hear from them, if they agree, disagree and perhaps shed some light on what they feel the differences are.

But let me reiterate. 
I feel both are doing a great job.


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## James Tiberius (Oct 23, 2007)

my answer would have to be.... yes

but i would love to be proven wrong.


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## Moebius (Mar 15, 2007)

It's not as much the plastic as it is tooling detail. The FM stuff is great, but I also know what it would take to do tooling like that. The price increase would be too much to make it work. If it was Star Wars, and sold worldwide, we could probably sell enough to do it. But with what we currently sell, there's no way it would work. If we put out a FM comparable 1/72nd Viper in the $30 range, I would think compaints would be the biggest thing we'd see from it.


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## ClubTepes (Jul 31, 2002)

Moebius said:


> It's not as much the plastic as it is tooling detail. The FM stuff is great, but I also know what it would take to do tooling like that. The price increase would be too much to make it work. If it was Star Wars, and sold worldwide, we could probably sell enough to do it. But with what we currently sell, there's no way it would work. If we put out a FM comparable 1/72nd Viper in the $30 range, I would think compaints would be the biggest thing we'd see from it.


Thanks Frank.

Do you guys have any say in the formulation of the plastic in terms of hardness.

To me, with both the Viper and the R2 Refit coming out around the same time, it looked as though both had the same formulation in plastic

At the time, I was curious if it was a coincidence a choice, or neither.


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## Moebius (Mar 15, 2007)

ClubTepes said:


> Thanks Frank.
> 
> Do you guys have any say in the formulation of the plastic in terms of hardness.
> 
> ...


I would guarantee it's the same plastic on both. It's a generic polystyrene that nearly everyone uses. I don't think there's any durometer differences in this material, I would think it's a different material if softer or harder. Like ABS. Looks the same, but it's not, just a difference in chemical makeup.


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