# A question I don't think has been asked before...



## gomanvongo (Jun 12, 2010)

Hi folks

I like to build customs, and have been using the MatTyco chassis (the 440 style one available from mattell currently), as they are cheap, easy to use, and I don't mind hacking them up to make different wheelbases, etc.

That being said - I'm working on a couple of customs for an xmas gift for my father (Gonna make him box art, put a track set in, and include slot representations of his 2 classic cars) 

Now there'd be no problem if Dear ol Dad had something ground pounding, as those MatTyco chassis are smokey fast, but he's a little slow (only when it comes to driving cars!!!) and his cars of choice are a fully restored 1923 Model T Fordor, and a 1950 Ford Prefect in bone stock. _Look out at at the drags!!_

I've built the Model T up, using several components from a matchbox model T police truck including the high, spoked wheels (I used rubbers from a penny racer to help 'em hook up!) - and I've modified the pickups to accommodate the new ride height (about 1/8" off the track), and extended the guide pin to keep it tracking,but the car is just too fast to be any fun - it'll cook on straights, but the high centre of gravity, and distance from traction mags to track mean that it'll roll off every corner.

*The question then, is:*

Aside from letting my three year old use the chassis as a dinky on the living room rug and gumming it up with cat hair, is there any way I can slow this car down, and make it a more fun drive for dad?

Otherwise, I'll just lower the traction mags to help it stay on and upright - but it'd be more fun and realistic if you weren't doing a scale 150mph in a stock Model T!

I know usually folks want to go even faster - but I'm hoping someone here can help me lose a few horses from under that hood and still keep it a reliable running chassis.

Thanks! :wave:

john


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## slotking (May 27, 2008)

easy fix is to get power supply that runs 8 to 12 volts, that will slow it down

you can also use slip on silicone tires from super tires to drop the car lower, but it may not look as good?

there are also motors out there that ohm really high and will slow the car down.

last quick fix is adding a stop to the controller so that 1 can pull the trigger all the back


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## gomanvongo (Jun 12, 2010)

slotking said:


> easy fix is to get power supply that runs 8 to 12 volts, that will slow it down
> 
> you can also use slip on silicone tires from super tires to drop the car lower, but it may not look as good?
> 
> ...



Hi Slotking, thanks for the reply!

I do want to maintain the ride height and spoked rims (as that is what really sets the car off as a stock T) switching back to tyco rims and silis would undo a lot of the customizing i've done. As I said, crazy scale speeds look a bit out of place with a stock '23 T Fordor anyway - I think slowing 'er down would be better than increasing cornering ability in this case.

these motors that ohm high - would that be a case of switching armatures, magnets or the whole shooting match? do you know what type motor I should be looking for? 

Is there any way to de-tune an armature? I know you can hop them up, is it possible to hop one down? (can I just start whittling wires off with an xacto? )

I hadn't thought about a bump-stop on the controllers though... it's a neat idea and an easy one I may wind up using - but ultimately, it'd be great if I could de-tune the beast a bit, so it could be run on my track (huge 4 lane setup), the track I'm giving to dad (tiny figure 8), and the one I'm building at our cottage (decent sized 2-laner).

Thanks!

john


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

If it's one of the new style Tyco /Mattel chassis,odds are it might have a 4 ohm motor in it.
And it'll be fairly hard to control with a top heavy chassis.
If it does,you could install a stock 6.0 ohm or higher arm,that might help make it slightly more controllable
Do you know how to ohm an armature.


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## gomanvongo (Jun 12, 2010)

Hornet said:


> If it's one of the new style Tyco /Mattel chassis,odds are it might have a 4 ohm motor in it.
> And it'll be fairly hard to control with a top heavy chassis.
> If it does,you could install a stock 6.0 ohm or higher arm,that might help make it slightly more controllable
> Do you know how to ohm an armature.


Hi Hornet

I do not know anything about ohms, other than they are a measurement for electricity. How does one check something like that? - would an older tyco have a lower ohm, and are the arms interchangeable?

Thanks!

john


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

Drop the voltage, swap the arm, change the gearing.


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## slotking (May 27, 2008)

using a multimeter set to the ohm setting
then place a probe on each side of the tiny slot(air gap) on the commutator.

it will measure the resistance between each stack. But i would 6ohm may be to fast with the big wheels as well.

The only other option i can think of is making the shoe tension to light by compressing the shoe spring some (enough to slow it but not burn it)


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## slotking (May 27, 2008)

gearing should not affect it that much, and at 7/25 any gearing change will up the speed


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## partspig (Mar 12, 2003)

I agree with Bill on this one, drop the voltage. The 440X-2 chassis will run just fine on 9 - 12 volts. Change out the arm to a pre-Mattel arm. They ohmed between 6-7 ohms, I think. But I wouldn't mess with the gears, 7/25 is about as far as you can go. Have a good day! pig


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## slotking (May 27, 2008)

they tyco arms may be to fast as well
that's why I said that dropping the voltage or using a trigger stop may be the easiest things he can do:thumbsup:

my 6+ ohm tyco arm'ed cars are very fast


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## gomanvongo (Jun 12, 2010)

Thanks guys! trigger stop seems to be the way to go with my limited knowledge of the finer points of slot electrics (oooh look at the pretty blue sparks!).

I appreciate the responses, and the ideas. 

john


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## tjd241 (Jan 25, 2004)

*What brand track?*

Can you adapt the Tomy Tripower Pack to the track you plan to use?... Better still, since it's only a small figure 8, can you just use Tomy track? It has a deeper slot which would allow you to use a longer pin too (might help keep cars on). The Tripower pack does have it's advantages being that you can select 8/12/22 volts with a simple plug-n-play wall wart. The lower volt setting really does dull down the speed on faster mag cars too.


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## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

the style of the body, it being diecast and the inherent speed of the chassis will not lead to a handling dream. something major needs to be changed. maybe get an Aurora slim line chassis to put under it? almost all inline chassis are going to be too fast for that kind of top heavy weight. maybe a Tyco HP7 if it is narrow enough? given the tall wheels and the weight of the body, something else must be radically changed.


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

I don't normally reconmend this mod,for a stock arm,but you could try using Neo traction mags,they might give you enough rail attraction to keep it from being so top heavy and make it little more fun to drive.
There's lots of cheap Neo traction mags for the old Tyco:thumbsup:


http://www.hcslots.com/hardencreekparts/venomneomagnets.html


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

*Oh puh-leeze!*

Read again...cuz I'm gonna agree to REALLY disagree.



> I've built the Model T up, using several components from a matchbox model T police truck including the high, spoked wheels (I used rubbers from a penny racer to help 'em hook up!)
> 
> .....the car is just too fast to be any fun
> 
> ...


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## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

Bill, good idea on the worm drive. I have some of those TCR, or whatever they are, chassis that run. I would be willing to donate one to the cause. PM me.


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## ParkRNDL (Mar 20, 2002)

hey wow. that US-1 idea sounds like a step in the right direction. i used one of them under a camera truck, worked out real good. now the camera part, that was another story... :freak:

--rick


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

*Mule skinner*

So....ya gotta bear with me here.

The TCR would be too difficult but it is a cheap source of worm drive gears.

So a farted around with a US1 for a bit. Naturally I dont have the body, but what the heck I'm gonna pretend that nothing lines up correctly and throw out some eye deers. 

The US1 chassis isnt a thoroughbred....more of a plow horse....but it has some attributes you can exploit. The big ones here are mucho lug with the top speed of a stump puller, and extremely stable on the track/turns. 










With the simplistic frame rails, the front axle can be moved darn near where ever you please. You can pinpoint the correct wheel base easily. One could also move it up or down with some abandon as well. Note that you could shorten the WB to rediculous proportions if so desired.










As Vongo is already well versed in what it takes to modify the pick ups, it's a pretty simple deal to move the index holes back and bend those big skis into anything you want. Just so you keep the new index holes away from the front axle line. Even if you totally ruin it there's a second set out back LOL! If ya dont bone it, you could still use the stock dual shoe arrangement. 










The dual guide pin set up might be an added bonus; as Vongo noted stability issues in the turns. The cromagnon design of the chassis and specifically the front pan allows plenty of latitude should the chosen style of pin have to be relocated. In general the box design of the front pan allows you to put everything right where you need it given the amount of open real estate available. 










The body mount outriggers can come or go depending on what you need. When clipped away the remaining chassis rails are the same width as the 440.










There's plenty of fat to trim to get the body to fit AND still remain strong enough to do the job. If necessary both the back and front can be pared back for body fitment. It's possible that some of the slug weight could be modified and retained if required to offset the top heavy nature of the diecast body...again depending on the body fitment...the "T" has a notoriously short trunk that rolls off the back edge quick.










Certainly there are other forms of worm drive. I'm just spitballing cuz Pig sent me a bunch of US1 and TCR cores so they are fresh on the bench.


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## racer8nut (Mar 25, 2010)

I agree with you all about dropping the voltage. I find more fun to run on 9-12 volts on my small track. especially with a 20 month old who loves to drive the cars on the track. Yes... he actually pulls his own trigger and drives. Pretty cool in my book. Here is a power supply I found on amazon and has worked well on my slot car track and it will allow you to really sllloowwwww down the car. I am a school teacher and this is the one I will be using with my slot car club I have at school Hope it is useful and have fun racing.
http://www.amazon.com/Power-Supply-...QGI6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1315704047&sr=8-1


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## eastside johnny (May 13, 2008)

As I scrolled down through the thread, my thought was to go to a worm gear and then here I get to the end and TADA!...there it was. That would be my best guess for what you want.


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## slotking (May 27, 2008)

again the voltage drop or trigger stop are both easy, and not labor intensive!
both allow gradual speed increases if needed with a lot or work
just up the voltage or make the stop smaller!

No brain twisters needed


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Good idea Bill,but with no traction mags,even worm drive won't get it through a corner slow enough to prevent it from tipping over.
It'll be slow,but still not slow enough.
You're just compounding the top heavy factor by taking the traction mags out of the picture
He can add another guide-pin to the rear of his tyco chassis,with a little glue,and that'll help his situation more then anything.
Dual guide-pins will probably give him more benefit then anything:thumbsup:

A piece of tye wire or piano wire bent in a "U" shape,hooked over the back chassis wall and attached with a little glue,is the way i used to make dual guide-pins,that way you can adjust the length of the secondary guide-pin to match the bottom of the slot


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## partspig (Mar 12, 2003)

It would be ridiculously easy to add traction maggy nuts to a US1 chassis. There is plenty of real estate under there to drill a hole or holes in the plastic chassis and then glue in a of Radio Shack neo dot maggy nut to fill the hole. Be cheap to do also, as I don't think that they are very expensive. pig


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Why not work with what he's got first:thumbsup:
If he can't make it work,then by all means switch gears,but i think he should try some of the cheap fixes,before he goes off on another tangent,just my opinion.
Dual guide-pins,throttle stops etc. can be built for pennies,and aren't much work to experiment with:thumbsup:
Bills got a great idea,but lets see if we can get what he's already got to work first.
Just my .02


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## gomanvongo (Jun 12, 2010)

alpink said:


> the style of the body, it being diecast and the inherent speed of the chassis will not lead to a handling dream. something major needs to be changed. maybe get an Aurora slim line chassis to put under it? almost all inline chassis are going to be too fast for that kind of top heavy weight. maybe a Tyco HP7 if it is narrow enough? given the tall wheels and the weight of the body, something else must be radically changed.


actually, only the plastic fenders, wheels, grill and the diecast hood were used - the rest i fabricated out of sheet plastic (when was the last time matchbox put out a bone stock model t fordor?)

Please keep in mind that this is a work in the very initial stages - body lines not yet defined, fit and polish not up to par, I'm still very much in the fitment phase. I'll probably also be fitting rubbers to the front wheels to cut down on the hot rod look (those darn kids!) and give it the proper stance, but in the stance lies my problemo 








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the body is ungainly, to be sure, but certainly no heavier nor taller than an aurora rig, its just that to maintain a stock look, the ground clearance is pretty huge.








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I'm really liking the US1 idea, i just wish I'd have asked you guys before I got this far. I'll have to see what I can make work from where i am now. My boy may "lose" one of his fleet of dumptrucks!

Thanks for the input all! I'll keep you posted as this develops.

john


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## slotcarman12078 (Oct 3, 2008)

Dang, that looks cool!! I wonder if a US1 arm and mags would fit in a 440 chassis....


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## ParkRNDL (Mar 20, 2002)

hahahahahaha! Love the fact that you can see the basement in the background of your pics. Looks a LOT like my slot dungeon--er, I mean basement. And the Five Finger Discount store is pretty awesome. :thumbsup:

--rick


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

*Armature Vasectomy*



Hornet said:


> Why not work with what he's got first:thumbsup:
> If he can't make it work,then by all means switch gears,but i think he should try some of the cheap fixes,before he goes off on another tangent,just my opinion.
> Dual guide-pins,throttle stops etc. can be built for pennies,and aren't much work to experiment with:thumbsup:
> Bills got a great idea,but lets see if we can get what he's already got to work first.
> Just my .02


Hahahahaha....does everything have to be cheap? If so, ya cant get much cheaper than a US1 and you'd still have the good 440 platform in reserve. :thumbsup:

I think you inline missle guys are doing a good point of illustrating my point. Does Vongo have a variable power supply? How much does that cost?....and that's inexpensive how? Wouldnt you think that purchasing a variable power supply flies directly in the face of using existing. Sounds like quicksand to me given that my last US1 cost more to ship than I paid! 

Additionally, trying to turn a thoroughbred inline missle into a driveable tin lizzy powerplant when the tin lizzy platform already exists seems more like the tangent. 

Again guyz, I'm just spitballing and trying to point out that certain platforms are engineered for specific applications. The US1 was designed to haul loads in a stable controlled fashion...re: the dump truck. Notably with the load WELL above the beltline and ZERO traction assist. (If you've ever seen the set in action)

The tyco 440....well....not so much.

If it's really about cheap, easy, and using what is existing... why not just detune the EXISTING armature by clipping one pole of the arm and instantly turn it into a lame, rattiling tin lizzy? 

Presto! :tongue:


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

LOL,Bill,ya know i love ya,but how does a throttle stop on a controller,and a piece of wire bent in a "U" shape clipped over the back wall of the chassis to make a secondary guide-pin ruin the 440 chassis he's got.
He's already got it mounted on a Tyco chassis,i think he should try working with what he's already got.
If he can't make it work,he's out nothing but an hour or 2 of time and maybe a nickel in supplies,and he's learned something.
I'm going out on a limb in figuring he's relatively new to the hobby,he doesn't know how to ohm an arm,which usually indicates a fairly new guy.
So he's probably wanting to learn new things anyways
The US1's stability factor came from it's dual guide-pins,and they're easy enough to replicate on a stock chassis.
Don't believe me try it on a stock mag car,we even wrote no dual guide-pins into our rules way back in the early 90's,cause a stock Tyco with dual guide-pins is damn near impossibe to beat,it won't hardly de-slot

If you decide to try the throttle stop idea,don't do it on the trigger of the controller,use a small machine screw and go throw the side of the controller housing,drill a small hole in the controllers side ,screw the machine screw in,so it hits/stops the wiper arm inside the controller.
This leaves you with a smooth trigger,and you just back the screw out far enough to clear the wiper arm when you want to use the full sweep of the controller.
LOL ,Bill "Cheaps" where it's at,anybody can spend money.
I got more respect for the guy who does it on the cheap and makes it work:wave:


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## gomanvongo (Jun 12, 2010)

dual guides sound like a super easy trick to try! Thanks hornet! And Bill, your US1 idea has me thinking maybe some us1 style lead weights front and rear to keep er more rooted. I'll try those tonight, as it seems to be a no brainer that a bit more weight (as long as it's low) and an extra pin will help.

Bill - you laugh, but snipping some wires out of the arm was my very first idea - that's why I came to the experts! I have found out that there are three ways of doing things - The Right Way, The Wrong Way, and my way which is very similar to the wrong way, only faster, messier, more dangerous and ultimately more costly.


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## slotcarman12078 (Oct 3, 2008)

Be advised.. Unless it's a special wind, there is usually only one wire wrapped repeatedly around each pole of the arm, so one snip is all it should take to wipe out one pole, which is what happens when you snip one. Doing so will cause a dead spot on the arm which means the ole tin lizzy may need a push start to get moving. ( Think flat spot on a car's starter...)

The US 1 motor ohms way higher... The one I tested with Old Sparky, my unreliable bench meter ohms at 22.1,22.1, and 21.9. The US 1 motor revs lower and has a much different power curve than a 3 ohm Mattel arm. Couple that with a worm gear drive and you get creepy crawly vs blazing fast. There were a lot of things designed into US 1 trucks that made them a stable platform. Dual pins, front and rear weights, and the fact that they sat low helped too. The problem with them in this case is the US 1 platform is too wide.

The only thing I've been able to do with 440/ mattco is take them apart, usually breaking something or more in the process. :lol: Looking at a TYCO version I don't think the arm will swap out, as the shaft is shorter on the US1 at the brush end of things, which means the shaft won't make it to the bushing up front. Another thought is the 440"s design is totally different than a US 1 so sticking a worm gear out back is out unless you can lower the axle, and remove the magnets. The geometry is different, as the worm gear has to sit over the axle gear. 

There is another option besides the US 1 chassis that hasn't been mentioned... Atlas, Lionel, and Bachmann chassis utilized a worm gear drive. They are pokey chassis, which is more suited to what you're working with. I have one of them (not marked so I have no clue which brand it is!) sitting here on my desk, and it appears to be relatively close wheel base-wise, height-wise, and width-wise to a 440. This may be your best bet for a replacement power unit. The only major issue I can see with these is ( at least in my example ) the shoe springs are part of the shoe, so how you add on to them to make up the height difference has to take that into account. Also, you don't run across these shoes very often, so replacing them may prove a challenge. Best of luck with this project vongo. I think it's a neat idea!


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## slotking (May 27, 2008)

the trigger stop is super easy, no drillling, no need for us 1!
you can use almost any thing for the stop!
you can change the stop size as you people get better at driving!

That means as you get better you may get bored with the cars because the cars will seem to slow! so you make a smaller stop and wow, the cars are faster! and maybe get to a point where no stop is needed!

No reason for any car mods except the rear pin can help dad! lol

no need to buy other cars to cut up, or anything else

heck if you want to go slower, some tjets with slip on silicone tires will do the job!


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

Yeah yeah ... no need... 

Why even bother spending the extra time and effort engineering a specialized model that actually represents the spirit of the original model and the sentiments of the recipient?

Yeah yeah, just blow some cheese whiz on it and call her good.


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## gomanvongo (Jun 12, 2010)

what i've done so far is to use a rear pin (those chassis even have a molded in hole - i shoulda thunk of it) and find some better (less aged) tires for the rear. it goes pretty good round the track now - with some finesse. i think for now I'll call this chassis sorted, and move on to changing an anglia panel truck into a ford prefect ( see pic of my wife and project prefect here http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l6uxitGHhK1qayvoco1_500.jpg.

thanks guys!

john


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

LMAO,you're a lucky man,you sure she doesn't need glasses:wave:.
Just kidding G.

Glad it sorta came around for you.

I just figured with the amount of work and time you'd put into mounting it tastefully to a Tyco chassis,it was worth trying to sort it out a bit,before we sent you off on another tangent.
But if you got one of the old US1 chassis's laying around,maybe use it for your next project:wave::wave:.

Bill i wasn't trying to step on your toes,you've got a great idea,and i hope he uses it for his next project,i just thought it was worth trying a few ideas first,before we re-directed him.
Sorry Bill 
Rick


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

Oh geez Rick...

I know you understand my fight against the status quo and Vongo's project is down the road.

No worries!


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