# Classisc Movie " Le Mans " Type of car?



## Voxxer (Oct 25, 2003)

Hi All:

I watched the movie Le Mans last Thursday on TCM - Turnner Classic Movies and was wondering about a car. When the race first started a white car was in the lead followed by two Porsche and two Ferrari's. What type of car was the lead white car?

Thanks

Voxxer


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## GoodwrenchIntim (Feb 22, 2005)

Lola T70?????


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## resinmonger (Mar 5, 2008)

The white car that took the lead mid-way through the first lap is the long tailed version of the Porsche 917. The three Gulf cars were the 917K or kurzheck version. The white car's designation is 917LH or langheck for long tail. This design offered less drag and hence more top speed down the three mile long Mulsane straight that the K version. 

C&R Racing makes both the 1970 and 1971 versions of the car.

http://candrhoracing.com/html/c_r_bodies.html

Here is a slot site that has a section of the history of the Porsche 917 series.

http://www.imca-slotracing.com/Porsche917-1970.htm

Hutts are book worms. :drunk::hat::freak::dude:


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## GoodwrenchIntim (Feb 22, 2005)

resinmonger;2630845
C&R Racing makes both the 1970 and 1971 versions of the car.
[url said:


> http://candrhoracing.com/html/c_r_bodies.html[/url]


OUCH $20 for a resin...... They should be selling what they are smoking an not the cars


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## resinmonger (Mar 5, 2008)

I don't see that price as unreasonable. Somebody spent some time on mastering these cars - they aren't available as diecast as far as I know. The bottom of the sides curve inward which should significantly reduce mold life as the casting has to be pried from the female mold. The bodies look as nice as 1:43 kits I have from the now defunct Provence Moulage of France and those were highly regarded in the static model world. If a business takes Paypal or credit cards they are losing at least 5% to 10% of the sale to the Paypal or their credit card processor. Their time is worth something. Personally, I don't see how people that sell at $8 to $14 a body even recoup their expenses. Doing it for love only goes so far. That's just my humble opinion.

:drunk::hat::freak::dude:


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## GoodwrenchIntim (Feb 22, 2005)

I have to disagree
takes about 1/4 oz per resin body(that is with excess), $37 for 26oz of resin(micromarks CR-900 high strength resin),, thats about .35 per body for resin

my avergae rubber mold is 4.5 oz, $42 for 2 pounds of rubber(micromarks best 10-1 high strength) thats about $3.30 for rubber per mold

You can make hundreds of mold with this high strength rubber

you can make just over 100 resin cast with the 26 oz of resin
so 100 bodies at $20 a pop is $2000 - $37(resin) - $3.30(rubber) = 1959.70

Lets say a model to cast takes 40 hours( a good modeler can do this in less time) 1959.70 / 40 = $48.99 per hour

$48.99 per hour to make resin bodies = I want what he is smoking 

An we wonder why this hobby is dieing????


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## SplitPoster (May 16, 2006)

While recognizing the previous point, I have to agree more with RM. So somebody runs off a hundred of these fairly complex bodies. How many are blems? Having a tiny bit of exposure to commercial casters, more than a few are unsellable. Got several flawed "runners" that came gratis with bodies I bought. 

Secondly, how quickly do they sell? That profit margin is only realized if the bodies don't sit on the shelf. Somebody is paying to maintain that website whether stuff is moving or not, and for any other marketing done. In specialized stuff like this, at some point you have to figure what your time is worth - not just making stuff, but fooling with the hassle of stocking, communicating, packing, shipping and dealing with customers. 

Is $20 a bit high? Yeah, I think so too, but it's not highway robbery. If someone wants to try to sell a higher priced body, what's the deal? Haven't seen any other casters try this - if they do and can sell it for $10, and fool with some of the characters who like to buy cheap and still complain - more power to 'em.


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## GoodwrenchIntim (Feb 22, 2005)

SplitPoster said:


> While recognizing the previous point, I have to agree more with RM. So somebody runs off a hundred of these fairly complex bodies. How many are blems? Having a tiny bit of exposure to commercial casters, more than a few are unsellable. Got several flawed "runners" that came gratis with bodies I bought.


Even if 1/4 where flaws thats still $36.50 an hour 



> Secondly, how quickly do they sell? That profit margin is only realized if the bodies don't sit on the shelf. Somebody is paying to maintain that website whether stuff is moving or not, and for any other marketing done. In specialized stuff like this, at some point you have to figure what your time is worth - not just making stuff, but fooling with the hassle of stocking, communicating, packing, shipping and dealing with customers.


Time line shouldnt matter once they are made an sell they are profit, having a small website like that is cheap, you can have one hosted for under $5 a month. Packing shipping an dealing with customers is part of having a business



> Is $20 a bit high? Yeah, I think so too, but it's not highway robbery. If someone wants to try to sell a higher priced body, what's the deal? Haven't seen any other casters try this - if they do and can sell it for $10, and fool with some of the characters who like to buy cheap and still complain - more power to 'em.


If they were inject plastic they maybe worth the $20, resin no way!!! He dont even make the models to mold, some guy in Germany did

Why would someone just getting into the hobby want to spend $20 on a body at that price they may as well go to a larger scale with more realism like 1/43 or 1/32

an I repeat we wonder why this hobby is dieing


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## resinmonger (Mar 5, 2008)

Kevin, we have one major maufacturer, Tomy via Racemasters, who just released a car that is a quantum technological leap ahead of anything previously offered, the Mega-G. A second major company, Life Like, is now in the hands of a serious hobby player, Walthers, who may well avoid the Mattel model of treating slot cars like cheap toys. A third major company, AW, continues to release repops of classic Aurora items; the quality and timing aren't optimal but we are much better off with AW than we would be without them. There are three aftermarket manufactures manufacturing their own chassis and pushing new ground by replacing traction magnets with weights: BSRT, Slot Tech, and Wizzard. Another serious aftermarket company, Dash, pops out high quality injected plastic bodies. A large number of other companies make bodies, parts, tools, decals, etc. I don't think the hobby is dead or on life support. A lot of goodness came out this year _despite a year long recession_. Sure, Mattel has squandered the Tyco brand's potential but that is the one low point I can find. 

Resin bodies are offered at a variety of prices. One dude offering five or six bodies at 20 bones a piece isn't going to kill a hobby. If you think it's too much, don't buy. If everyone thnks it's too much, the seller will have to either lower his price or cease business. That is a fundamental law of economics. The fact that C&R is still in business suggests that there is a market for his product at the price he's asking.

Yes, packing, shipping, accounting, customer relations, inventory control, and manufacturing are part of running a business. Producing bodies is probably a small part of the operation time-wise. Should all of that other time be free? You can not just take raw material and figure out a wage from it. I've been in a hobby business (10 years) and am no longer in business because it's a lot of work, very little pay, and a fantastic chance to lose money. If you have a full time job, it gets old busting your rump after real work for little or no money and little or no appreciation of your efforts. You can't charge enough to break even on shipping 'cause people will bust on you. "Dude the postage was $3.50 and you charged $4.00, what a total rip off, you douchebag!" is a pretty standard response. Boxes, packing material, and time are free? Credit card processing is free? Of course not. So you have to bake this into the product cost or get crap for charging true shipping and handling. If you're in the hobby business, your not getting rich off it - Mattel's profits are not exactly setting Wall Street on fire. Personally, I hope everyone in the hobby is making some money as that is the goal of being in business: making money. Otherwise, people wouldn't be in business. If the HO hobby companies stop making money, the hobby _will_ die.

In 100 BC, Publilius Syrus coined the phrase _Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it_. Like the Speed of Light and other constants, this concept has not changed in 2100 years.

Russ


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## Voxxer (Oct 25, 2003)

*Thanks*

Well o.k. - everybody play nice!

Thanks for the info resinmonger. I had no idea about the 917LH. Also, thanks for the links.
I will have to paint a AFX 917 in the blue and yellow. If anybody is good at painting AFX
Porsche 917 bodies, please contact me at [email protected]

Thanks Again


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## slotcarman12078 (Oct 3, 2008)

*What is $20.00????*

Let's think about this rationally for a moment... If you make something unique it's up to you to set the market value. If it sells at that price, more power to you. Obviously, they are selling at that price. Would he sell more for a lower price?? Probably. If he has a real job, and this is a part time hobby, it's quite possible he doesn't want to have push out 50 of these things a week. As Resin quoted, it's worth what the buyer is willing to pay. 

Ponder this.. When you snag a deal on Ebay for cheap, it's great!!! But when you're on the selling side of the street and someone snags a "deal off you, how good is it?? I can't believe a chocolate brown Aurora camaro can pull $700.00, or a candy blue mustang can be worth almost $1300.00, but people will pay that much for them. Do prices like this help or hurt the hobby?? 

I don't believe the German guy made the bodies... as I read it he finished two of these cars and it was the decals he didn't need to make. 

Quote.."Stefan Riecker in Germany did the modeling on the two Porsches on the right using Patto’s decals. *The #25 decal*, he says are an almost perfect fit. (Guess I won’t have to make them, then.)"

Put yourself in the sellers shoes for a moment and think about it from his perspective. If you can successfully sell a body for $20.00, would you? I know I would.. Would I sell them to my friends here for that price?? Hayl no!! But on the open market, I'd sell them for as much as I can get. It's called capitolism (not necessarily a dirty word), and it would fund new projects.... If it isn't profitable to make something, other than for your own gratification, it isn't worth making....


UtherJoe


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## GoodwrenchIntim (Feb 22, 2005)

slotcarman12078 said:


> I don't believe the German guy made the bodies... as I read it he finished two of these cars and it was the decals he didn't need to make.
> 
> Quote.."*Stefan Riecker in Germany did the modeling on the two Porsches* on the right using Patto’s decals. *The #25 decal*, he says are an almost perfect fit. (Guess I won’t have to make them, then.)"
> 
> UtherJoe


reread what you posted here i never said that guy was making the resin, but did the modeling


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## resinmonger (Mar 5, 2008)

Voxxer said:


> Well o.k. - everybody play nice!
> 
> Thanks for the info resinmonger. I had no idea about the 917LH. Also, thanks for the links.
> I will have to paint a AFX 917 in the blue and yellow. If anybody is good at painting AFX
> ...


Voxxer,

Patto's Place have decals for nearly every Porsche 917 that graced a grid. The link is below. Go to decals and select "P". 

http://members.optushome.com.au/pattosplace/

Patto has decals for both the 917K and the 917LH for all of the major teams, Gulf Porsche, Porsche Austria, and Martini Porsche as well as most of the independant entrants. Available decals include the yellow and red "hippy car" livery that Martini ran at the 1970 9 hours of Kayalami and the similar purple and green scheme that they ran at the Glen 6 hours. These were variations of the purple and green livery run on the Martini 917LH that took second at Le Mans 1970. 

The #3 Martini 917LH makes one brief appearance in the movie; this is a shot from the actual race. A lot of the film uses cars that McQueen bought or leased for the movie. There are shots where 5 917s and 5 Ferrari 512Ls are chased by a Matra 650 and an Alfa Romeo 33T3 all grouped together. These were filmed when McQueen rented the track.

Kevin and I were playing nice. We were just looking at slot car economics from two different points of view. Public discussion is a healthy thing as it gets everyone to consider new ways of looking at an issue. Check out Splitposter and Slotcarman joining the discussion with their own good thoughts. We're all just slot heads. We all want to see our hobby florish.

Hutts are wordy. :drunk::hat::freak::dude:


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## GoodwrenchIntim (Feb 22, 2005)

resinmonger said:


> Kevin and I were playing nice. We were just looking at slot car economics from two different points of view. Public discussion is a healthy thing as it gets everyone to consider new ways of looking at an issue. Check out Splitposter and Slotcarman joining the discussion with their own good thoughts. We're all just slot heads. We all want to see our hobby florish.
> 
> Hutts are wordy. :drunk::hat::freak::dude:


Yes we were, we both have valid points, Thats why this hobby has such a diverse following


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## SplitPoster (May 16, 2006)

Nice civil discussion indeed. Having been in a family business way back when, all the stuff that is "part of running a business" is the stuff that costs money and time (really the same thing). That business went belly up with plenty of valuable inventory sitting on the shelf - unsold.

RM and SC are dead on - anything in this arena is a second or hobby business, not a job. If and when it starts taking away from your 1:1 (LMAO) job - time, productivity, distraction, imagination, dedication - then figuring the actual cost is not quite the same, is it? One simply cannot figure production time into the cost as "wages per hour", and *not count the much greater time spent afterward going through the process of MOVING the darn things*. I can't even begin to get into analogies...... Suffice it to say this looks like this is set up as a sustainable operation. That's way more than can be said for numerous other ventures.


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## resinmonger (Mar 5, 2008)

*Own the movie you can*

Just in time for after Christmas shopping, Amazon has Steve McQueen's "Le Mans" on sale at prices we can afford!

http://www.amazon.com/Mans-Steve-Mc...ef=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1230149808&sr=8-2

Porsches and Ferraris and Lolas oh my!


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## H.O. racer (Jan 21, 2008)

And they were right up there in the running, until they decded they better pit in to reload the film canisters in order to satisfy thier financial backers! REALLY!!!


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## Pete McKay (Dec 20, 2006)

I sell my vacuformed bodies for $2 when they are only drawn from only 35 cents worth of clear plastic. Resin casting is an art, just as I like to think vacuforming is, although I think what I do is easier than resin casting. I'd pay $20 for a resin body, and have. I've bought some really nice RRR early NASCAR bodies for $25, and I once bought a '64 Fairlane done up in Golden Boy livery from MEV for over $50. If it's a subject that can draw that sort of interest then the market will determine the price.


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

Nice discussion. Bump?


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## vaBcHRog (Feb 19, 2003)

GoodwrenchIntim said:


> Lets say a model to cast takes 40 hours( a good modeler can do this in less time) 1959.70 / 40 = $48.99 per hour
> 
> $48.99 per hour to make resin bodies = I want what he is smoking


40 hours. Hmmm I know one master modeler that spends at least that much time just on the finish ie, buffing and polishing.

Shoot you can spend 40 hours just on research not counting the cost of your reference material. 

The bodies you are talking about aren't made for the newbie but for the Model Racer and the modelers out there. $20.00 its a bargin when its a body you really want to model for yourself. 

I quit smoking a long time ago so I do not want what he is smoking 

Roger Corrie


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## pshoe64 (Jun 10, 2008)

great discussion guys! Good to see the different points of view. I have to agree with Roger on this one. I have sculpted for my own line of cars (very small line) and I've done work for slot car and model companies over the years. Depending on the project, research and initial sculpting (first cast) would run me over 100 hours and sometimes several dollars. Once again, depending on the project. Conversion of existing tooling or modeling off a similar design reduces that time quite a bit, but taking the square block of nothing and turning it into a respectable replica of a 1:1 takes investment of serious time. There are many who are gifted at being able to do this more quickly than I and of course I'm envious of that. Heck, I have at least 20+ projects in some level of completion, but still not done, some being weeks, others months in the works. but the end all be all is what will someone pay for the product. If it's good quality work, it will go for more and deservingly so. Now as to what the "collectible" stuff ratchets up to, well, I need to sell more resin casts so I can look at those!

-Paul


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## jobobvideo (Jan 8, 2010)

What material do you sculpt the original in clay, Industrial Plasticine, soft metal (alum.)?


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## JazzyJerome (Feb 14, 2012)

resinmonger said:


> The white car that took the lead mid-way through the first lap is the long tailed version of the Porsche 917. The three Gulf cars were the 917K or kurzheck version. The white car's designation is 917LH or langheck for long tail. This design offered less drag and hence more top speed down the three mile long Mulsane straight that the K version.
> 
> C&R Racing makes both the 1970 and 1971 versions of the car.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link.


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## vaBcHRog (Feb 19, 2003)

jobobvideo said:


> What material do you sculpt the original in clay, Industrial Plasticine, soft metal (alum.)?


 
I use resin and make a mold of a body that is close to what I want. Mainy for modeling Purposes I use Smooth Cast 300Q which cooks off in a couple mins. I also have used milliput which is an epoxy putty also.

Roger Corrie


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## pshoe64 (Jun 10, 2008)

jobobvideo said:


> What material do you sculpt the original in clay, Industrial Plasticine, soft metal (alum.)?


I work with everything. But I focus on woods, reinforced plasters, polymers, vac-formed styrene and PETG and solvent based fillers. I tend to avoid clays as they can shrink or distort during the curing process. There's a lot of modeling after the base body parts are sculpted. After that stage, anything goes as far as sourced shapes or parts. For example, I did a 1/24th scale IROC Camaro on commission and used the side vents from a pair of sunglasses to get the louvers for the hood. On the HO scale side, I use a lot of pre-created shapes. My wife likes craft stores, and I have discovered that the sewing and jewelry sections have a treasure trove of items that with a bit of tweaking become injector stacks, exhaust pipes, windshields, side view mirrors and anyting else that becomes a need. I has taken me a while to "look" for the shapes I want in a bag of jewelry findings, but it has saved a lot of time from sculpting everything as an unique piece.

-Paul

-Paul


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