# Briggs & Stratton tiller engine power drop after so called repair



## murraybummer

Best I can tell the numbers on the engine are...
92902 1590 01 7409189
or 
92902 1590 01 7409180 











Ive tried to get this old tiller running and it worked like a champ for a few years until one day when it was cranked it made a very loud screeching sound. I took it in for repairs and the tech said something like the clutch was bad. So after $60 in repair cost I brought it home and cranked it up without the screech but with a consider loss of horsepower. I couldn't even get the compost pile to turn..it was getting bogged down and not churning like it used to.

I had called the tech back and described the power loss and was told something about the governor and throttle and that it was set as recommended and that to get more power would mean setting things that might damage the engine.

So I gave up and its sat around and I tried again this spring and the same result, cranked up but couldnt turn loose ground properly.

Any ideas?


----------



## geogrubb

92902 150 01, the 150 needs another digit.
Post a picture of the top of the carb, with the air cleaner off so we can see the linkage. Have a good one. Geo


----------



## murraybummer

Sorry Geo, its 1590 01 left out the 9.

Heres the carb pics

















thanks for helping:thumbsup:


----------



## 30yearTech

The screeching noise was probably the starter clutch, which will have absolutely nothing to do with the power output of the engine. 

It looks like there may be an issue with the carburetor. The picture you posted with the air filter removed, shows the choke plate open while the engine is not running. It should be closed. There is likely a problem with the carburetor diaphragm and this could be causing the lack of power.


----------



## murraybummer

So is that diaphragm part easy to find? At Lowes/Home Depot?


----------



## 30yearTech

Maybe, I have not looked for them at either of those stores before. This engine is pretty old (36 years) and not as popular as it once was. So you may have to go to a lawn mower shop to find the diaphragm.


----------



## murraybummer

thanks again geo, ill post results


----------



## geogrubb

murraybummer said:


> Sorry Geo, its 1590 01 left out the 9.
> 
> Heres the carb pics
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thanks for helping:thumbsup:



Listen to what 30Years says, he is as good as they get. If the engine starts and runs fine except for the power, as you indicated, you can adjust it by bending the tang, the loop the big spring hooks into forward, after you have moved the throttle to full, however you do not want to run it beyond 3,000 rpm or a little less than what your lawnmower sounds like, remember it is 36 yrs old. It looks, in the picture, as though someone has already bent the tang as it is clean and some paint is missing, anyway.
The diaphragm you need will not be available from Lowe's etc. However procedures are pretty much the same, just make sure if you take something apart you draw a diagram or take a picture, the new carb kit will have a little arm on it that will hook onto the choke plate(I think). Have a good one. Geo

It seems the part Number you may need is B&S 391881. Have a good one. Geo


----------



## murraybummer

Thanks 30year and Geo.
Ill look for that part to replace.

Geo...the bending of the tang. 
Is the tang just the portion that the big spring hooks into?
So bend just that part?
And is that bending it laterally towards the blades?
Or upward?


----------



## geogrubb

murraybummer said:


> Thanks 30year and Geo.
> Ill look for that part to replace.
> 
> Geo...the bending of the tang.
> Is the tang just the portion that the big spring hooks into?
> So bend just that part?
> And is that bending it laterally towards the blades?
> Or upward?


YES
With it set a full throttle, you grasp it with pliers on the vertical part under the loop(the somewhat clean part in the picture) and bend it forward with a twisting motion, the idea is to move the loop forward so it stretches the spring slightly which will pull on the governor and increase rpm. Have a good one. Geo


----------



## murraybummer

I replaced the diaphragm and governor spring and sprayed out the carb and gas tank really well. It definitely cranked up easier and ran a little smoother.

But the rpms still werent high enough to break soft ground.
So I bent the tang as it was running at full throttle expecting it to take a just a tad of a bend to amp things up.

Well, I kept bending till it started to slowly increase some, but the tang seems way too bent now. I put my finger on the governor and pulled toward the front and the rpms started sounding more like my mower.

So it seems that the tang would have to be bent forward nearly an inch to power it up enough. Could it be the governor is the issue? Or age?

heres some full throttle pic










and here are pics of it shut down


----------



## 30yearTech

The lever is not in the "Full Throttle" position.

You need to bend the tab "A" up a little so it will slide over the bracket and stop at the kill switch that is snapped into the bracket.

Bend tab "B" back the way is was. If you still need to increase the engine speed, bend tab "B" out away from the carburetor in a clock wise direction when looking straight down on it. This will increase spring tension and engine speed.

Looking at your pictures, the throttle link from the governor arm to the carburetor throttle (the part the spring hooks to), looks like it's bent a little and this could also affect top speed.


----------



## murraybummer

thanks 30yr! 
the top photo I thought was full throttle, the A tab is stopping it though like you said so by restoring tab B to where it was and bending up tab A to slide fully will be my next move. 

On the governor arm, should I replace that if it looks bent to you? Im not sure whats the area of that part that would need to be rebent.


----------



## 30yearTech

murraybummer said:


> thanks 30yr!
> the top photo I thought was full throttle, the A tab is stopping it though like you said so by restoring tab B to where it was and bending up tab A to slide fully will be my next move.
> 
> On the governor arm, should I replace that if it looks bent to you? Im not sure whats the area of that part that would need to be rebent.


The linkage should look like this. You should be able to bend it back yourself. 

Caution: don't try and bend it with it installed. Remove the link first or you run the risk of breaking the plastic governor arm. 

http://www.m-and-d.com/RO-170.html


----------



## murraybummer

Ive made the following changes:


Restored tab B to original position
Bent tab A up so that it throttle meets the stop when opened fully
Removed governor spring and bent it to look like http://www.m-and-d.com/RO-170.html
Tried to crank at mid way between stop and full and nothing happend after 3-4 tries
Turned throttle to wide open and it cranked but still running pretty low
Moved the govenor by hand and hp increased
Cut it off
Tried to re-crank and nothing just vapor from carb after 3 tries

here are some more up to date pics of closed position top and front views

















here are open position pics


----------



## 30yearTech

When you are running the engine, do you have the air filter installed?

If not, then you need to at least install the air filter mounting screw back into the carburetor. The mounting hole for this screw is open into the fuel tank, and without the screw in place fuel can be drawn up into the carburetor and fed to the engine. This will make the engine hard to start and can make it run very rich and slow.

Everything looks pretty good as far as the linkages are concerned. You can bent the tab "B" I indicated in my previous post out a little to increase the tension on the governor spring.


----------



## murraybummer

The air filter was not on then, but after reading your post I did put it back on and it did crank and run smoother:thumbsup:

Then at full throttle I bent the B tab forward and it did increase the hp (or at least it sounded a bit louder and faster)

I then put in in gear and tried to break ground and it stalled.
Then I tried a softer compost pile and if I dropped it in it stalled, if I lifted the tines up it churned. It used to run much stronger two years back and broke ground pretty easily.

The only idea I have at this point is to sharpen the tines and see how that helps.


----------



## 30yearTech

Try opening up the adjustment screw on the carburetor 1/4 to 1/2 turn and see if you have a little more power.


----------



## murraybummer

gave it up to a half turn and its not improving the torque on the tiller spindle.
I have to wonder if some linkages have worn on the shaft that turns the tines, and that they might need to be sharper.

But the tiller used to at least hop when hitting a tough surface vs stalling.
I used to walk it up the hill with its blades digging in and pulling as I barely pushed.


----------



## 440s-4ever

Is that the original governor spring? It looks newer and may explain why the linkage was jacked up in the first place, somebody trying to compensate for the wrong spring rate. 

Just thinking out loud. 

BTW sharpening tines won't get you anywhere. 

good luck


----------



## murraybummer

440s-4ever said:


> Is that the original governor spring? It looks newer and may explain why the linkage was jacked up in the first place, somebody trying to compensate for the wrong spring rate.
> 
> Just thinking out loud.
> 
> BTW sharpening tines won't get you anywhere.
> 
> good luck


Yeah I replaced the spring after I mangled the one that was on it
Good to know on the tine sharpening not being much of a help..didnt want to deal with that anyway. But what should be the next step?


----------



## 30yearTech

When you say it stalls, do you mean the engine? 

Or does the tiller tines stop rotating?


----------



## geogrubb

murraybummer said:


> Yeah I replaced the spring after I mangled the one that was on it
> Good to know on the tine sharpening not being much of a help..didnt want to deal with that anyway. But what should be the next step?


There are 10 different springs for that engine, i went through the list and couldn't find one for type 1590, you need to sand the paint or rub it with a pencil to get the proper type code. If it is 1593 the part # for the spring is 261080 which is for 3100-3300 rpm max no load. Have a good one. Geo


----------



## murraybummer

Tines stop, not the engine. Engine still running normally


----------



## murraybummer

geogrubb said:


> There are 10 different springs for that engine, i went through the list and couldn't find one for type 1590, you need to sand the paint or rub it with a pencil to get the proper type code. If it is 1593 the part # for the spring is 261080 which is for 3100-3300 rpm max no load. Have a good one. Geo


Yeah I checked again and its 92902 1590 01 74094891.
I called Briggs and Stratton and told them that 1590 wasnt listed in that parts list matrix..it went from 1589 to 1591 across the data. They looked it up themselves and said that I needed

Diaphragm = 391681

Governor Spring = 260878

and a Governor link = 260878 (but I didnt mess with that)


----------



## 440s-4ever

If the tines stop then your problem isn't engine power, it's the tine clutch & drive mechanism. Investigate why it's not holding, sounds like you're looking at the completely wrong thing.


----------



## 30yearTech

When the type number does not show up in the list of parts, then the first part number listed is the correct part number. They only list the other type numbers if the part needed is different from the standard one used on the engine.

I think most of us were confused and thinking the engine was stalling when you applied a load. The problem is likely in the drive clutch. Either the friction ring is no longer bonded to clutch plate or if it uses a drive belt, the belt is probably worn thin.


----------



## ptmike

make sure you put the air filter screw back in the base of the carb or it may not start or run very well. that screw plugs a hole in the fuel tank, with out the screw it could draw fuel from the tank. mike


----------



## murraybummer

30yearTech said:


> When the type number does not show up in the list of parts, then the first part number listed is the correct part number. They only list the other type numbers if the part needed is different from the standard one used on the engine.
> 
> I think most of us were confused and thinking the engine was stalling when you applied a load. The problem is likely in the drive clutch. Either the friction ring is no longer bonded to clutch plate or if it uses a drive belt, the belt is probably worn thin.


Originally it was the clutch plate I believe that was the so called repair I paid for. Its such a pain to transport this thing I wouldnt mind trying to get my hands a little more dirty.

How do recommend checking to see whats likely wrong? I see that the casing has 4 bolts that hold it on but the engine of course is bolted to that. It would be a first for me to tinker with.


----------



## 30yearTech

Probably just remove those bolts and lift off the drive housing and see what's under there.


----------



## murraybummer

Well here is what is underneath...its a belt!
What next you think?


----------



## 30yearTech

The only thing I can see right off it the belt is on the wrong side of the belt guide on the right hand side. That could have happened when you lifted the engine off though. It also looks like the lower engine seal is leaking, but there does not appear to be any oil on the belt. The problem could actually be a worn or stripped helical gear on the tine shaft.


----------



## murraybummer

Yeah I was afraid of that. So, take a few more bolts out on the tine shaft and separate the housing in the center?


----------



## 30yearTech

murraybummer said:


> Yeah I was afraid of that. So, take a few more bolts out on the tine shaft and separate the housing in the center?


Yes, that's what I would do.


----------



## usmcgrunt

By looking at the rubber dust on the underside of the motor,I think the belt should be routed between the main pulley and the idler pulley.When engaging the auger the idler pulley should push down on the belt and tighten it against the main pulley.Worked on a few snow blowers with the same configuration.Just my opinion,it's worth a try.


----------



## murraybummer

That may be it

Ive rerouted the belt by removing the bracket on top od the pully and flipping both the belt and bracket to that side. Look right to you guys before I put the engine on it and crank it?

I have noticed that in doing that it is flip flopping the lever action as well.
Before I would have to pull all the way up and try to crank it, then lower it to get moving.

Since it was repainted in the 70's or 80's its not clear which is the right position. Judging by the wear pattern under the hood like you pointed out I think someone installed the belt wrong.

Heres the pics


----------



## geogrubb

murraybummer said:


> Yeah I was afraid of that. So, take a few more bolts out on the tine shaft and separate the housing in the center?


Why not turn the pulley to see if it turns the tines, taking it apart might not be necessary, maybe belt routing has been the problem since it came back from repair. Have a good one. Geo


----------



## usmcgrunt

Looks like it will work.Just make sure the belt is routed inside of the guide pins on both sides.The tension pulley acts as the clutch.Not sure what they charged you $60 for.Hope it works and am glad to have helped.Many thanks to all the senior members for all of their hard earned knowledge and helping ME in the past


----------



## murraybummer

I think they installed the wrong size belt as well cause when I set it up like this...










there is about an inch of slack that the belt has with the engine pully spindle when fully engaged with the lever up. I took off the back plate so I can feel for the contact when engaged.

Are the posts supposed to be on the outide of the running belt? I assume so cause if the belt runs around the red posts the belt wouldnt make contact with the engine pully and would burn up pretty fast I'd imagine.


----------



## 440s-4ever

By being outside the belt those posts help keep the belt on the engine pulley when the tensioner is slacked.

With the robustness of the tine's gear case I'd expect a noise like marbles in a coffee can if the gears were stripping out. Plus a high likelihood of having to rotate it backward to unlock the gearcase after it stops forward motion. That thing's from an era when gears were gears.


----------



## usmcgrunt

The rod that goes from the handle to the bell crank on the deck looks like it has threads on the bottom.You could try screwing the rod down to take up some of the slack from the belt.Looks like about two inches are now exposed,I would try to expose about 3 to 4 inches of thread.If the auger turns with the handle in the off position after making the adjustment,thread the rod out to give the belt a little slack.You may have to go back and forth to find the ideal spot.I would guess this rod is threaded to compensate for belt stretch.


----------



## murraybummer

Yeah I thought that might help. Its not too clear in the photo but I did pull out the cotter pin in the threaded bracket that holds that rod into position and threaded it up towards the handle up top to increase the tension. I moved it about and inch. Its still around an inch of slack on that pully when engaged so I wonder how much more I can safely turn that threaded bracket upward?
Thats why I was thinking maybe a smaller belt?


----------



## usmcgrunt

The rod appears to have alot of thread left.At some point the idler pulley may rub on the main pulley if adjusted to far.A new shorter belt would really help.Just trying to save you a trip to the auto parts store and a few bucks.


----------



## murraybummer

Im there constantly anyway, trying to restore a 63 4dr Nova:tongue:


----------



## 30yearTech

Belt is on correctly in this photo, with the exception of the one belt guide, the belt needs to be on the inside of these posts, or it will drag when the belt is tightened. The spring pulls the idler arm forward to keep tension on the belt when engaged. The center position on the handle should be neutral. The helical gear is made of brass, when they wear or strip, they don't sound like marbles they just mushroom out! It's possible that the belt is the wrong size, but the gear could still be an issue.

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/attachment.php?attachmentid=112932&stc=1&d=1279744827


----------



## 440s-4ever

A rule of thumb I use when figuring belt rounting....Typically idlers do not tension away from the drive or load pulley. Normal movement should maximize the linear inches of contact when engaged. Not sure if that makes sense the way I typed it, but points toward incorrect routing when you took it apart. 

Perhaps I'm wrong on the marble sounds, but would still expect some degree of jamming inside that gearbox if the teeth are climbing each other. 

Good luck with the ole chevy II.


----------



## 30yearTech

440s-4ever said:


> A rule of thumb I use when figuring belt rounting....Typically idlers do not tension away from the drive or load pulley.


Belts can be tensioned from either the inside or outside, makes no difference. In this case the design of the arm and the direction the spring applies tension to the belt dictates the route the belt should be installed. As you can see in the photo's when the spring pulls the arm forward, the pivot point is going to cause the idler pulley to move towards the outer left side and apply tension to the belt. There would be no need for the spring, if tension was was going to be applied manually by pulling up on the lever.



440s-4ever said:


> Perhaps I'm wrong on the marble sounds, but would still expect some degree of jamming inside that gearbox if the teeth are climbing each other.


Sometimes there will be some binding, but with a worm drive on a helical gear, you can have a spot on the helical gear where it just stops working and the input shaft will continue to easily turn.


----------



## murraybummer

Back to the drawing board. No improvement on torque after replacing rerouting and replacing the belt with a 29" vs the 30ish" belt. I tried to put on a 28" too and it wouldnt fit. So the 29 I tightened up with the threaded post and all and its still not digging in.

So I guess its time to break apart the housing on the tines and see whats there.


----------



## junebug1701

30yearTech said:


> Belt is on correctly in this photo, with the exception of the one belt guide, the belt needs to be on the inside of these posts, or it will drag when the belt is tightened.
> 
> http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/attachment.php?attachmentid=112932&stc=1&d=1279744827


Are you sure about that, 30year? That idler pulley is flat, and is resting against the V-side of the belt. Seems to me that a flat pulley would go on the back of the belt which is also flat.


----------



## usmcgrunt

Is the motor stopping or do the tines stop turning and the motor continues to run as in your original thread?If the motor stops,then it sounds like it's back to a govenor problem.


----------



## murraybummer

usmcgrunt said:


> Is the motor stopping or do the tines stop turning and the motor continues to run as in your original thread?If the motor stops,then it sounds like it's back to a govenor problem.


the motors still running, just no rotation of the tines when ground contact is made.


----------



## 30yearTech

junebug1701 said:


> Are you sure about that, 30year? That idler pulley is flat, and is resting against the V-side of the belt. Seems to me that a flat pulley would go on the back of the belt which is also flat.


Yes, I am sure. I see flat idlers used on the inside of pulleys all the time. Since they are only used to tension the belt it can ride on the inside of the belt without any problems, now using a v idler on the back side of a v belt is another story.


----------



## murraybummer

*How do you get this thing apart?*

Ive gotten off 2 sets of tines and taken the bolts off around the housing. I cant seem to free the plate on the right side after removing its bolts, and I dont want to pry it apart and break it. 

Whats the right way to remove the plate so I can get a view of whats going on in there?


----------



## 30yearTech

all the tines have to come off, then if there is any corrosion on the shaft it needs to be cleaned up so the end cap can slide off the tine shaft. Then the shaft can be pulled out of the side the cap was on.


----------



## murraybummer

The other set of tines came off by removing the bolt that attached it on the shaft, and then it slid off. Do the last tines have to have all 4 on each tine removed and then it breaks down and the shaft can be slid out?


----------



## 30yearTech

murraybummer said:


> The other set of tines came off by removing the bolt that attached it on the shaft, and then it slid off. Do the last tines have to have all 4 on each tine removed and then it breaks down and the shaft can be slid out?


No you have the tine pin removed already in your picture. the tine will slide off the shaft, but it looks like it's going to take some work due to all the rust and corrosion on the shaft.


----------



## murraybummer

Thanks 30yr,

Here is what it looks like broken apart. I dont know what to look for so I'll leave that to the pros.


----------



## usmcgrunt

The gears appear to be in excellent condition.Could be a sheared key that locks the bronze gear to tine shaft causing it to spin under load.I would try holding the tine shaft in a vise and using a strap wrench on the bronze gear to see if it spins on the shaft.


----------



## 30yearTech

The gears do look fine from what I can see in the pictures. Check the key like suggested in other post on the helical gear and make sure it's not spinning on the tine shaft. The worm shaft  looks like it could be kind of loose at the upper end where the pulley attaches.


----------



## murraybummer

Ive tried to rotate the bronze gear independently from the tine shaft in both directions and its not budging, it seems solidly connected.


----------



## 440s-4ever

If it churns dirt a little you're probably not going to be able to free the bad joint up by hand. Might be time to reassemble and use it with a helper, watch the shafts really carefully while trying to make it slip. See where the turning actually stops. 

Good luck


----------



## 30yearTech

Does the busing at the top of the worm shaft turn on the shaft ok?

If it's binding then when tension is applied to the belt it could be causing too much drag and causing the belt to just slip when the tines are dropped into the dirt.


----------



## murraybummer

440s-4ever said:


> If it churns dirt a little you're probably not going to be able to free the bad joint up by hand. Might be time to reassemble and use it with a helper, watch the shafts really carefully while trying to make it slip. See where the turning actually stops.
> 
> Good luck


Yeah, it did churn a little dirt, very little. Id have to tilt the handles down a good bit to keep the tines suspended just above the ground. The moment I drop it it stalls while the motor keeps running--and without any screeching or added noise which seems odd. I would think that the belt would be slipping around at that point and making a ton of racket.

Maybe I'm not understanding, but if I reassemble everything I would only be able to see the tine shaft stall since the top motor unit covers the rest of the action.



> Does the busing at the top of the worm shaft turn on the shaft ok?


If I stand the shaft up vertically and spin it at the top, its moving smoothly and turning the corkscrew gear that rests in its base.


----------



## 440s-4ever

Could you drill a hole that would allow you to see a pulley or belt? I think there's enough confusion here it's time to figure out for certain exactly where the slip point is and that's about the only way I know. To run it. 

Permanent marker or tape can be used to stripe a pulley or belt if you've got really limited visibility. 

Could somebody laying on the ground behind it see anything?

Just thinking out loud. Good luck.


----------



## murraybummer

*back at it again*

Ok so here is what has happened since I last posted.

I went with the belt arrangement so that the pulley pushed inward to engage the tines using a smaller belt gave the tiller plenty of grip when I pulled upward on the lever towards me as far as I could get it. So the tines and driveshaft were all working fine just not getting the right amount of tension from the belt. 

But the only way I could get the tines not to stall was to be constantly pulling up on the lever while I was tilling and also that there was no nuetral at all in either position, the tines were always moving. Which just seemed wrong but it was churning real good.

Having that to work right and the tilling chore done I figured it was time to break it all down and repaint it.

During the paint stripping process I found that the tiller was originally a Western Auto Wizard. I also saw that the indicators for the lever were neutral up top and forward in the downward position, which shows that 30Years was right as can be about the belt pulley needing to run so that the pulley pushed outward to engage.

Here is a pic









So after stripping repainting everything I have put it back together but its not turning over now. I did get it to crank up once but did so with the air cleaner off and opening the choke plate while cranking. I put the air cleaner back on and let it run a bit and turned it off. But now it wont crank.

I checked the arrangement of the choke plate and its in the closed position as it should be. Anything you guys can think of that might help me get this thing running right again?

Here is what its looking like.


----------



## 30yearTech

You need to at least have the air filter mounting screw installed when you try to start the engine. The carburetor is open to the fuel tank where the air filter screw goes in, and sometimes when you crank this type of engine fuel will get drawn up through the opening and cause the engine to flood out. Make sure the throttle lever is in the run position or you won't get any spark.


----------



## murraybummer

I have been cranking with the air cleaner on and the throttle lever in the mid area and even full throttle and nothing so far. In replacing parts I replaced the pull cable and left what extends to be nearly 2 feet of string. I had wondered if that might effect the firing?

The next step I guess is replace the spark plug.


----------



## 30yearTech

This engine is old enough to have points and condenser, unless it's been upgraded to solid state. If the point's are not gapped properly, you may have spark, but the engine may not start. Too short of a starter rope could make it harder to start, but if your pulling it fast enough then you should be able to get the engine started even with a short rope.


----------



## murraybummer

I have replaced the spark plug and taken off the air cleaner with screw installed, and it has not turned over again. Not even with the air cleaner on it. I had weeks ago been able to crank it and it ran for 3 min or more and I shut it off. Since then it wont turn over. I wonder if the diaphragm that I replaced before I broke it all down to clean and paint might need replacing again?


----------



## murraybummer

Back again, trying to get this tiller going and I am having no luck so far.
I took the top housing with the pulley in to have a pro install the proper amount of cord and to wind up the coil inside of the housing correctly. There is now plenty of rope to pull, but I cant get it to turn over.

I had it turn over once a while back as I mentioned in a previous post, but since then I get nothing.

What would be the checklist?

Its got gas and oil
new spark plug
and I had replaced the carb diaphragm recently.

If the points are needing adjusting I wouldnt know how to, so I may have to haul it back to the guy to get it running..charges $40 per hr.


----------



## dj722000

You have to remove the recoil shorud, starter cutch and flywheel. Under the flywheel you will see a little cover, remove it by taking out the one screw and your points and condensor is right there. Probably best to replace both for the age of the engine. 

If not, pull apart your points and there will probably be some corrosion in there. Take some fine sand paper and put in between your points, let your points close and gently rub it back and forth a few times. Blow it out pretty good when done. Should look pretty good when done. Did you by chance look for spark before posting?


----------



## murraybummer

Embarrassed to say that I have not checked for spark, and just looked this up here to find out how..
http://www.ehow.com/how_7735417_check-10-hp-briggs-stratton.html

hopefully this was right, cause I followed those instructions.
I even took a dremel tool and cleaned the metal loop that the spark plug connects to, attached the spark plug, and with a channel lock held the plug attached to the wire and touched it to the spark plug input on the engine as I pulled the cord several times but no spark.

The wire seems fine, no cracks or anything.


----------



## 30yearTech

Make sure that when you test for spark, the throttle lever is in the on or fast position. In the photos you have posted, the throttle control is in the off position, there will not be any spark if the throttle is in this position.


----------



## murraybummer

Yep, I tried the full range of positions actually on the throttle, but here is where it was positioned at last trial. I have the carb and tank off at the moment trying to see if I maybe slipped up putting all that together.










I had wondered if I didn't reconnect a wire properly to the throttle area with the plastic clip.
Here is a shot of how the wire is connected.


----------



## dj722000

murraybummer said:


> Yep, I tried the full range of positions actually on the throttle, but here is where it was positioned at last trial. I have the carb and tank off at the moment trying to see if I maybe slipped up putting all that together.
> 
> Most of the time you can just put it in the middle and check. I hope theres a holder for that recoil rope to use up the extra rope hanging out that you paid to have installed right.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Scrape some paint off one of the fins and try for spark again. It may or may not spark through the paint. Did you by chance have the coil off? If you did, did you put it back with a air gap of .010"?
> 
> 
> I had wondered if I didn't reconnect a wire properly to the throttle area with the plastic clip.
> Here is a shot of how the wire is connected.


This looks ok, however, where ever your throttle plate makes contact with the kill switch, scrape some paint off there so it can make good contact or it may not kill. Also make sure on your kill switch that the metal piece is not in contact with anything or it will kill your spark. I cant tell in the photo if it is or not.


----------



## murraybummer

Yeah the rope hangs a bit sometimes, I have to take the handle and lift it to fully recoil the last 1.5 inches slack.

I scraped some of the paint around the plug entry and tried it touching again there but nothing, hoping to keep the fins intact. It wouldnt surprise me if I painted over a connection that wont conduct now. 

As far as the coil goes, Im not sure where the coil is on this thing. I took the top off and took some more pics if it helps and also posted some engine diagrams of what looks to be my engine. I figure it might help giving me numbers to refernce since Im in over my head with this stuff.














































thanks a lot for the help fellas!!


----------



## 30yearTech

The *Coil (Ref # 333)* in your illustration is what the spark plug hooks up to via the high tension plug wire. The *points (Ref # 375)* are located under the *cover (Ref # 345)* which is under the *flywheel (Ref # 23)*. Since you are not getting any spark, it's likely that the points are causing the problem. If you don't want to tackle replacing them, you can replace the coil with a solid state unit. I would still have a look at the *flywheel key (Ref # 24)* on this engine, if the key is sheared, you will loose spark.


----------



## murraybummer

Im buying the solid state part at $37, hope its easy to install


----------



## 30yearTech

murraybummer said:


> Im buying the solid state part at $37, hope its easy to install


The Starter Clutch unscrews (Ref # 66) not the flywheel. Once the clutch is removed then the flywheel can be remove, there is a puller that can be used to pop the flywheel off.


----------



## murraybummer

Thanks 30 year,

I had first tried to get spark after installing the coil but before removing the clutch and flywheel.
It didnt seem to help, no spark

pics of the installed coil



















After that I did manage to get the starter clutch removed
The key was flush to the top of the flywheel when I removed the clutch.
I then popped off the flywheel and removed the key.

Here is a pic of the flywheel key 









pic of the key after I slipped onto the crankshaft to see if it stayed put









pic of the flywheel key slot










what should I test next?


----------



## geogrubb

I really think the problem is the color, I mean what working Briggs wants to be seen digging in the dirt dressed in purple and yellow, probably paint it black and red or red and white and the spark will come back, just a thought. Have a good one. Geo


----------



## 30yearTech

geogrubb said:


> I really think the problem is the color, I mean what working Briggs wants to be seen digging in the dirt dressed in purple and yellow, probably paint it black and red or red and white and the spark will come back, just a thought. Have a good one. Geo


That's too funny


----------



## 30yearTech

You need to be sure that the wire to the points, the one coming out from under the cover is *NOT* hooked up to the ignition module. This wire will not longer be used with a solid state ignition module, just hook the wire from that plugs into the side of the module to the kill switch, or for testing purposes, just leave it off and see if you get spark. Be sure the kill switch lead wire is not grounded anywhere as well. Just don't start the engine this way, or you will not have an easy way to shut the engine off.


----------



## murraybummer

So from the pics (other than the color) does the flywheel key seem fine? 
If so, when I put it back on..should the key rest flush with the top of the flywheel?

Also, on the wire you mentioned.
The instructions said to cut the two wires close to the dust cover(the original ones) off. So I cut those and took the new coil and hooked up the clip thats under, and lead the one wire to connect to the kill switch and the other to loop under the other screw that holds on the coil to the engine.

Did I install it wrong?


----------



## 30yearTech

Flywheel looks fine, as far as I can tell from the picture. I don't know about the kill wire, I can't tell from the picture, but as long as there is no contact to ground, you should be alright. Test for spark with this wire disconnected.

What is the Code number of your engine?


----------



## murraybummer

Best I can tell the numbers on the engine are...
92902 1590 01 7409189
or 
92902 1590 01 7409180

the part for the magneto armature is 793281.

I tried getting spark with the kill switch wire removed from its connection, and I dont get a spark. Ive tried touching the plug to the scraped paint area at the plug entry and tried a few plugs as well just to make sure its not the plug.

The only thing I havent messed with is the Plunger hole plug they had in the box. It reads "If engine is equipped to operate with Magnetron, or Magnevac ignition, install plunger hole plug."

Here is yet another pic


----------



## 30yearTech

murraybummer said:


> Best I can tell the numbers on the engine are...
> 92902 1590 01 7409189
> or
> 92902 1590 01 7409180
> 
> the part for the magneto armature is 793281.
> 
> I tried getting spark with the kill switch wire removed from its connection, and I dont get a spark. Ive tried touching the plug to the scraped paint area at the plug entry and tried a few plugs as well just to make sure its not the plug.
> 
> The only thing I havent messed with is the Plunger hole plug they had in the box. It reads "If engine is equipped to operate with Magnetron, or Magnevac ignition, install plunger hole plug."
> 
> Here is yet another pic


I meant for you to unplug the kill switch lead where it's plugged into the module, not the kill switch.

Anyways, I see an issue. The wire terminal you have attached to the screw that mounts the coil opposite the air vane, should not be attached here. This *GROUNDS* out the primary circuit of the coil and causes *no spark. * This wire is for engines that have a screw terminal for an externally mounted kill switch to attach to. This wire should not be attached to anything on your engine. Unplug the kill harness from the module and test for spark. If you have spark this way, then remove all the excess wire, with the exception of the wire that attaches to your kill switch by the carburetor.

Don't worry or mess with the plunger plug, as long as you leave the points in under the cover, this will not cause any problems.


----------



## GoatDriver

just thinking out loud...:wave:

Did you be sure and gap the coil correctly to the fly wheel?

also..if you haven't already, you may need to clean the magnet area on the flywheel. I have had units not fire correctly due to rust/corrosion on the magnet area of the fly wheel.


----------



## murraybummer

Once I get back home tonight I will remove the wire clip from the unit and test for spark. I hope that does the trick, I had attached that wire there since it looked like the same kind of arrangement that the older coil had. Plus it seemed weird to have a 2 wires on that clip and to leave the one wire with the loop type connector unconnected. Glad you spotted that 30 Year!

Goatdriver,
I used the tag card that came in the box to gap it, its printed on a card stock that says .010" thickness. Ill scrub the flywheel up as well and see if it helps.


----------



## murraybummer

Wire removed from the top right side of the coil mount, and we now have spark!:hat:

So now do I just seal off that loop connector wire and tuck it away, and attach the other straight wire to the kill switch?


----------



## 30yearTech

GoatDriver said:


> just thinking out loud...:wave:
> 
> Did you be sure and gap the coil correctly to the fly wheel?
> 
> also..if you haven't already, you may need to clean the magnet area on the flywheel. I have had units not fire correctly due to rust/corrosion on the magnet area of the fly wheel.


Rust on the flywheel will not affect spark generation or timing. It will however affect proper air gap setting.


----------



## 30yearTech

murraybummer said:


> now do I just seal off that loop connector wire and tuck it away, and attach the other straight wire to the kill switch?


You can, I just cut off the extra wire near the plug. However you want to do it, just make sure any wire you leave will not get caught in the flywheel when the engine is running, or ground out and kill the spark.


----------



## GoatDriver

30yearTech said:


> Rust on the flywheel will not affect spark generation or timing. It will however affect proper air gap setting.



Improper gap setting, in turn affects spark generation...correct??:thumbsup:
The rust has some adverse effect, because I have had it cause problems.


----------



## 30yearTech

GoatDriver said:


> Improper gap setting, in turn affects spark generation...correct??:thumbsup:
> The rust has some adverse effect, because I have had it cause problems.


Only if you were to remove and reinstall a coil or module. If it was never removed then the air gap would remain the same and the rust on the magnets would have no effect. In the case of most Briggs engines, the air gap cannot be adjusted to a point that there would not be any spark generation. It could slightly affect the ignition timing.

Click on this link for information from Briggs and Stratton on their Ignition systems.


----------



## GoatDriver

30yearTech said:


> Only *if you were to remove and reinstall a coil or module.*


Which is what the OP has done in this case :thumbsup: ....and it never hurts to carefully clean things like that up. 

Thanks for the link! :wave:


----------



## 30yearTech

GoatDriver said:


> Which is what the OP has done in this case :thumbsup: ....and it never hurts to carefully clean things like that up.
> 
> Thanks for the link! :wave:


Yes, it never hurts to clean things up a bit, and of course this helps to properly set the air gap. 

The point I eluding to, was in the course of trouble shooting an ignition problem, you need not worry about the rust on the flywheel magnets. The rust is not going to prevent spark generation or cause any ill effects to the ignition system. Look elsewhere to determine the issue. :thumbsup:


----------



## murraybummer

Good news and bad news, 
Good news is that you are all awesome and have helped me get the tiller running again. I hooked it all up and fired it up and it digs in now just fine! Many thanks to all who have helped me through this.

Bad news is the rip cord dangled out about 5-6 inches when cranked and I couldnt even feed the cord in. So I decide to cut the cord off at about 6 inches and while tying a knot at the handle eyelet it slipped through the eyelt and into the housing!!

Im hoping there is an easy way to explain how in the heck this sping coil and pull cord spindle can be properly rewound into the housing and save me the trip,dough and the embarrasment to have the mower shop deal with it again. I should have taken off the housing and took it back and had the shop remove the slack. Wish I had now.


----------



## usmcgrunt

Personally,I would take it back to the shop that did it so they can do it right the second time!They charged you for doing it and never wound it correctly.If the shop is to far away,here is a link that will help you understand how to do it yourself.Hope this helps .

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=donyboy73#p/search/0/YYk-Q2m6qLc


----------



## murraybummer

Thanks for the clip, mine is a bit different with the bend down tabs that are part of the housing vs the bolts. I took it back to the shop and he said its because the clutch is loose or something which is why it would not recoil. I havent taken the whole tiller in to him just the housing up to this point. So hes just guessing at why it recoiled fine while off the engine and slacking when I installed it.

He also said the spring needs to be replaced in the housing now. Cant wait to see what this will cost


----------



## dj722000

If you go to www.youtube.com, do a search for small engine recoil rope and small engine recoil spring, you will see several results on how to replace a recoil rope and spring. There pretty much the same as other recoils, no there not exact but should get you in the right direction. If you can tear apart the whole tiller and put it back together, you can do this as well.

Another thing to do to save a little money, take the clutch in with you and compare them. It might just need a little cleaning up on the inside.


----------



## murraybummer

So glad folks take the time to do these videos. I dug around and found a match to what Im working with. Very helpful, wish I would have seen this sooner. Ive made the mistake of bending down those tabs all at once and learned thats not right, cause one sides tab broke off already leaving only one on that side.






Ill remove the clutch and do what the fella in the video mentioned to do. Ill take it into the mower shop as well just so he sees whats going on with it.


----------



## 30yearTech

While that video shows one way to install the spring, it shows the hard way!

You can unwind the spring and feed one end through the housing and hook it to the recoil spool. Then just start winding the spool up in the housing and it will draw the spring into the housing and wind it up inside. When the other end of the spring gets near the opening in the housing, just make sure it slides up into the smaller end of the opening that holds it in place. Now your spring is wound up in the starter, just keep turning the spool to add the pre-tension, turn it until it stops and back off one full turn, install the pull rope and your good to go.


----------



## murraybummer

Yeah the guy at the mower shop explained thats how he did it the last time I brought it in to him, just winding it through like you said. I had tried that and I think where I went wrong (again) was that I had the rope already attached to the spool with the handle. I didnt see that I had mauled the spring so I wonder if I really need a new one. 

So if there is a next time ...



> just keep turning the spool to add the pre-tension, turn it until it stops and back off one full turn, install the pull rope and your good to go


...once you back off the one full turn, how do you install the rope? I assume it would already be tied onto on the spool and the spool stays in place (not moving) as you loop the cord onto the spool through the gap in between the housing and spool.


----------



## 30yearTech

You may need to make sure that the end of rope is not frayed, I usually melt the end and wipe it with a rag to smooth the end into a small pointed end. Then I feed it through the spool and out the eyelet of the housing. Tie a knot on the end to hold it in the spool, then tie the starter grip on the other end. release the spool and the starter rope should be drawn back into the starter.


----------



## geogrubb

SEE, JUST LIKE I SAID, it was the color, purple and yellow on a Briggs never works. Have a good one. Geo


----------



## murraybummer

Im trying to make it angry!!!!!!!










so far though its just been frustrating me


----------



## dj722000

murraybummer said:


> Yeah the guy at the mower shop explained thats how he did it the last time I brought it in to him, just winding it through like you said. I had tried that and I think where I went wrong (again) was that I had the rope already attached to the spool with the handle. I didnt see that I had mauled the spring so I wonder if I really need a new one.
> 
> So if there is a next time ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...once you back off the one full turn, how do you install the rope? I assume it would already be tied onto on the spool and the spool stays in place (not moving) as you loop the cord onto the spool through the gap in between the housing and spool.


If your not messing up, and learn from that experience not to do it again, then your not learning. Yes, i'm sure there will be a next time. Your hooked now. :thumbsup:


----------



## dj722000

I really didnt know about the color scheme, but it kinda works for it. I think?

I do like the way you have the Hulk in transposition for the tilling position, thats kinda funny.

Should have had the gear case powder painted...it would have looked kind cool.....


----------



## usmcgrunt

You did a great job on the restore,hope you get many years of use from it.


----------



## geogrubb

murrybummer;

It really does look good. Have a good one. Geo


----------



## jtills

i have been looking at your throttle linkage there.i have a troybuilt tiller, from about 1986, and have had a bunch of experience at working on this gauge of gas engines.lots of my experience has been in the reviving a dead one type,salvage operations.so, i'm glad there are good folks online to reply to your questions. anyway, i've just replacedthe winder cord on this troybuilt andput fresh gas in it. i started it up after a few pulls, and it seems to have full throttle capability. i'm hoping that in your case, the tweaking you're doing will turn out to be the cure.any of the old mowers, and other stuff i've gotten running again has been my gateway to lots of good feelings, lots of frustration, and lots of further questions.i'll be going over to a community garden plot sunday morning to take a look at all the spaces open, and make a flyer that i'll post there. i've been working on gardens for over thirty years, and here it is garden season again in northern virginia. i will tentatively plan to break up a plot by hand and mattock this sunday. afterwards i'll get the tiller cranked up and see how it does to begin this season.keep a dialogue open and i'll hope you get going right jtills


----------



## tfdoke

I don't mean to hi-jack this thread, but I have this exact same tiller and my dad and I have been working on it to "restore" it and it runs fine without the air filter on. Once we put the filter on....well let me back up...once we put the screw for the air filter into the hole through the choke and into the gas tank it dies. Just the screw causes it to die, not the filter. Does anyone have any ideas on the cause? I can post pictures if necessary....thanks so much!!!!

And another quick question....can you still buy parts for this tiller like the front plate, etc? 

Thanks again to anyone who can help!


----------



## 30yearTech

tfdoke said:


> I don't mean to hi-jack this thread, but I have this exact same tiller and my dad and I have been working on it to "restore" it and it runs fine without the air filter on. Once we put the filter on....well let me back up...once we put the screw for the air filter into the hole through the choke and into the gas tank it dies. Just the screw causes it to die, not the filter. Does anyone have any ideas on the cause? I can post pictures if necessary....thanks so much!!!!
> 
> And another quick question....can you still buy parts for this tiller like the front plate, etc?
> 
> Thanks again to anyone who can help!



The screw on this type of carburetor setup screws directly into the fuel tank. More then likely your carburetor is not supplying any fuel to the engine. With the screw out fuel is being fed directly from the tank into the carburetor, when you insert the screw all your supply is cut off. There is an adjustment screw on the side of the carburetor, open it up some by turning it counter clockwise and see if it will run with the screw in place. If not, then the carburetor needs some work.


----------



## Kastle Bravo

Hello,
Maybe I can help with something to try: Check for gas tank ventilation problems. The tank is usually vented through the gas cap. If the vent is clogged, it will eventually cause negative pressure to build up in the tank and prevent gas from flowing out.
Joel


----------

