# Dash Armature



## lenny (Feb 29, 2000)

We are close to production on the Dash Armature.

Please see the attached pictures. There are 14 'pancake' armatures. Twelve of them are original Aurora. Two of them are Dash prototype arms. The Dash arms *are not* made using old Aurora parts. They are made using all new tooling.

Post here which 2 out of these 14 armatures you think are the Dash arms, and why.

I'll post which ones are Dash in a few days.

Dan


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## fordcowboy (Dec 27, 1999)

last one top row and very last one bottom row. they look like new . lendell


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## tjd241 (Jan 25, 2004)

*From left to right....*

Top row *2nd *to last one.

_*and *_

Bottom row the very last one.

Could be the lighting, but wire looks almost brown, and the tips are grey. Looks "new" due to that. 

nd


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## LeeRoy98 (Jul 8, 2005)

Counting from top left, #1 and #9

Can't wait to get my own!

Gary
AKA LeeRoy98
www.marioncountyraceway.com


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## shocker36 (Jul 5, 2008)

Last one first row and second to last second row. I was thinking the last one last row but, after seeing the pic of the com side how the bad solder joint on the one tab is I know you guys make great stuff and wouldnt let that fly or maybe its just a bad pic.
Good Luck with them


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## bearsox (Apr 22, 2006)

*Slot Car General Discussion*

*I'm thinking it's the other one but if not it's the same one . That's assuming it's the right one which after i rule out the others is the only one left.:freak:

Bear:wave: *


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## mking (Apr 25, 2000)

top row, the middle arm with red tips
middle row, 2nd arm in from the left, the arm with red tips

why?

1: both arms should be identical in color/appearance since they are from the initial production run. both those arms have same color wire and same color stacks

2: in the picture of the bottom of the arms, the solder tabs on the com plate are much more precisely defined. the solder tabs on the other arms look crude in comparison


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## wheelszk (Jul 8, 2006)

Are they going to be FRAY legal?


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## coach61 (Sep 6, 2004)

I could guess, but that is all it would be...lol..7+9 just for giggles. Neat seeing them thought I take it they are very close to hitting the streets? Good Luck and thanks for doing this, hopefully we'll have chassis now till the trumpet sounds and we all go to the scale 12 mile Max in the sky...


Dave


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## smalltime (Jun 3, 2006)

If we are talking "T-Jet" arms..........
I hope that the green and the red painted ones will be DQd.

Other than that, They ALL look AWSOME!


BTW #2 and #8 ( counting from l to r) are the new ones. Just a guess.


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## tjetsgrig (Nov 1, 2009)

2nd to last top row, last one bottom row.


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## Hilltop Raceway (Feb 12, 2006)

top row - middle one
second row - middle one

Do I win a prize??? RM


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## Pomfish (Oct 25, 2003)

mking said:


> top row, the middle arm with red tips
> middle row, 2nd arm in from the left, the arm with red tips
> 
> why?
> ...


Nowhere does he say they are both "from the initial production run" so they can be any color/style.
He just says they are Prototypes.

Just sayin
Thanks,
Keith


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## lenny (Feb 29, 2000)

mking said:


> 1: both arms should be identical in color/appearance since they are from the initial production run. both those arms have same color wire and same color stacks


exactly what Keith said... These are *preproduction prototypes*


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## lenny (Feb 29, 2000)

wheelszk said:


> Are they going to be FRAY legal?


let me answer that with a question. If out of a picture of 14 armatures, people can't pick out the Dash arms from the original Aurora arms, how are they going to be teched out of a race, assuming that they meet all the other criteria?


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## tjetsgrig (Nov 1, 2009)

Lenny,
Could you please email me at [email protected] ? I have a question about comm plates.
Thanks!!

Jim Sgrig


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Fourth from left, top and bottom rows. Commutators look just a hair smaller. :thumbsup:


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

#4 and #14


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## slotcarman12078 (Oct 3, 2008)

I don't know the original stuff well enough to spot the new ones. I'm just happy a new chassis is getting close to another foward step! The arm and mags are much welcome as stand alone items too. Not to jump the gun here, but this could prove to be interesting... Manufacturing arms gives the ability to tweak resistance values down the road, making the possibility of hotter arms an option for the racing types, and cooler ohms arms for the cruiser type. Keep up the great work Dan!!! :woohoo:


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## wheelz63 (Mar 11, 2006)

*arms*

i think the middle row first and last on that row of arms. since they are both green and look original.


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## Brixmix (Dec 2, 2007)

I would say looking from left to right : top row the fourth one over and the very bottom row the fourth one over


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## SCJ (Jul 15, 1999)

tjd241 said:


> Top row *2nd *to last one.
> 
> _*and *_
> 
> ...


 
I agree with tjd241......looking forward to testing these.



--------------------------
www.SlotCarJohnnies.com


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## Tjettom (Jan 1, 2008)

*Thank you Dan/Dash*

Dan, 
Thank you very much! I have said many times during arguements and issues of releasing another t-jet chassis that before a complete chassis is offered there are two things needed worse. Those being magnets and armatures so that every enthusiast who already has a collection of chassis with worthless magnets and armatures can finally have a source for quality parts without having to keep canibalizing more chassis in search of efficiency.

So, thank you much for providing these parts so I don't have to keep buying more chassis with worthless parts. I now have a source. I own 50 pairs of your new magnets and look forward to some armatures soon. With the help of your new magnets and armatures I can probably rehab about 100 chassis.

Thanks again,
Tjettom Baker


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## smalltime (Jun 3, 2006)

lenny said:


> let me answer that with a question. If out of a picture of 14 armatures, people can't pick out the Dash arms from the original Aurora arms, how are they going to be teched out of a race, assuming that they meet all the other criteria?


Point taken.
Although, an internet pic of an arm and the real thing sitting in front of a tech guy with an optivisor are two different things. 

I shure hope that the "powers" will take these for what they are, OEM replacements. I have every confidence they will.

I too want to thank you for the effort. And to pass along the assurance that as soon as they become available, I will be throwing $ your way. I have been concerned for a long time about the armature shortage in T-jet racing. I feel very confident now that there will be a vibrant T-Jet racing community for a long time.


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## ParkRNDL (Mar 20, 2002)

Can't tell on my iPhone, and the truth is if they're that close it doesn't matter to me. I'm just thrilled as a pig in poop that there's a new source for chassis on the horizon...

--rick


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

I'd guess #4 and #14, but I'm not a TJet arm expert.

I don't think it really matters if they meet the spec's and are readily available without hacking old collector stock.


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## Gear Head (Mar 22, 2005)

If the new ones spin smooth, aren't "too hot" like the tuff ones, don't burn up like the model motoring ones, and don't cost an arm and a leg, I don't care which ones they are! I would, however, be grateful that you did all this work Dan, and would buy a truck load.


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

Hi Dan,
Thanks for putting in the time, energy and finances to do all that you do.

Just out of curiosity, what specs are you aiming for in terms of wire size and ohmage? Are you thinking about making armatures with different resistances? 

Thanks...Joe


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## slotnewbie69 (Dec 3, 2008)

i can't guess.if they look that close to the real thing,i am impresses.hopefully they turn out more reliable than the real thing and don't cost an arm and a leg.(pardon the pun)thanks for all your efforts.i like tjets,but they can be cost prohibitive to get a good one going.


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## LDThomas (Nov 30, 1999)

Top row second from right.
Bottom row far right.

The small tab that holds the comm is different on those two.


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## grungerockjeepe (Jan 8, 2007)

I just hope they have the guts to be used in AFX, MT and XT chassis. I have a few of those Id like to perk up. Dan, do you plan to have replacement pinion gears available also?


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

I have always wondered why the comm plates on the pancake arm are so large when there is only a need to provide a metal ring where the brushes actually ride??? From a performance standpoint it would seemingly make sense to find a way to reduce the size of the comm plate itself and bring the solder lugs in closer to the arm shaft to improve max RPM potential.


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## lenny (Feb 29, 2000)

AfxToo said:


> I have always wondered why the comm plates on the pancake arm are so large when there is only a need to provide a metal ring where the brushes actually ride??? From a performance standpoint it would seemingly make sense to find a way to reduce the size of the comm plate itself and bring the solder lugs in closer to the arm shaft to improve max RPM potential.


would you also reduce the diameter of the laminations?

it might affect torque... Depends what you're looking for. The closer you bring them in, the more you start looking like a slimline arm. 

I've actually been told by a prominent FRAY racer that I should make the arm heavier because that's where the torque is.

And then there's 'legacy' that needs support. If you make the T-Jet arm with a smaller diameter, then the gap between the arm and the magnets increases, which will affect performance. Unless you redesign the whole motor box, but then you'll lose interchangability with original Aurora, and you know how much screaming and yelling THAT will cause.

RPM potential isn't an issue with a T-Jet arm. If you need more RPM, play with the windings. If you reduce the size if the laminations, you reduce the area available for windings, so you would take the same length of wire for a given resistance and wind it on a smaller surface. The result would be windings that would bulge out more on the top and bottom. Then you might need to make the arm longer (more lams) to accomodate the windings but in doing so it might not fit inside the chassis.

The arm is better off left as is.


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

AfxToo said:


> I have always wondered why the comm plates on the pancake arm are so large when there is only a need to provide a metal ring where the brushes actually ride??? From a performance standpoint it would seemingly make sense to find a way to reduce the size of the comm plate itself and bring the solder lugs in closer to the arm shaft to improve max RPM potential.


For performance it would make sense but from an manufacturing standpoint you'd create a weak point in the thinner "ears" going out to the crimped tabs. Machinery today could be more precise in the crimping process but back then...I dunno. Looking at so many t-jet arms it's pretty obvious the process was anything but gentle. :freak:

There are pancake arms that have inline-style commutators, of course then we'd be talking a whole different chassis.


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

lenny said:


> The arm is better off left as is.


:thumbsup:


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## partspig (Mar 12, 2003)

Dan, Are you really going to listen to a Fray Racer's statements about how to build your arm? That does not sound like a sound business decision to me! Nor does it sound like what you would do. You need to make your arms as close the the original's as far as performance and the actual physical measurements. Three critical areas in building a good armature is using a good quality steel for the laminations, nice straight shafts, and flat commutator plates. If any of those three are bad, the arm will be bad! However, I would change up the colors of your arms or put id marks on them somewhere so that they cannot be mistaken for original Aurora's in any way. I'd like to see some nice pink windings or how about yellow laminations! You know as well as I, that unscrupulous sellers will try to sell them as originals. I see it now with the JL's, as they are real similar to the mean green's that Aurora made. Just my honest opinion! Have a good day!


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## lenny (Feb 29, 2000)

partspig said:


> Dan, Are you really going to listen to a Fray Racer's statements about how to build your arm? That does not sound like a sound business decision to me! Nor does it sound like what you would do.


I simply stated that a FRAY racer commented on how to create more torque. And it's something that I'll keep in the back of my mind when the time comes to create variations with different characteristics.



partspig said:


> You need to make your arms as close the the original's as far as performance and the actual physical measurements. Three critical areas in building a good armature is using a good quality steel for the laminations, nice straight shafts, and flat commutator plates. If any of those three are bad, the arm will be bad!


I realize all of these things, thank you.




partspig said:


> However, I would change up the colors of your arms or put id marks on them somewhere so that they cannot be mistaken for original Aurora's in any way. I'd like to see some nice pink windings or how about yellow laminations!



My intent is to make these as close to original as possible. If my magnets would not have received FRAY approval, I doubt I would have sold as many as I have so far. The same line of thinking will be applied to the arm. It will be done with the intent and hope that FRAY, ECHORR, VHORS and others will approve it. So it will be with the same resistance (or close) and the same color lams and wire as the original Aurora arms that are FRAY approved.



partspig said:


> You know as well as I, that unscrupulous sellers will try to sell them as originals. I see it now with the JL's, as they are real similar to the mean green's that Aurora made.


A JL arm has a silver color comm plate, 3 lams and is around 15 ohms. Who would ever mistake it for a Mean Green?

My samples were made with stainless steel shafts. This may or may not be how they are for production. I didn't specify stainless steel shafts for the samples, the factory decided to do that. That is certainly one way to tell my arm apart from Aurora, at this time. 

Aside from not working in a magnetic balancer, I'd like to hear some pros and cons of a T-Jet arm with a stainless steel shaft.


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## tjetsgrig (Nov 1, 2009)

lenny said:


> The arm is better off left as is.


Bingo!! Correct on the winding statement as well! I can wind a torquey motor, or a high revving motor, depending on how the wire is laid out. I can add epoxy for even more torque!! Sometimes inertia can be fun!!


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## tjetsgrig (Nov 1, 2009)

lenny said:


> Aside from not working in a magnetic balancer, I'd like to hear some pros and cons of a T-Jet arm with a stainless steel shaft.


Don't do it man!! You won't be able to solder the drive gear on!! That's a big deal for the drag guys. The regular steel shafts have worked just fine!! Besides, wouldn't it reduce the cost to go with the regular steel shaft??


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## smalltime (Jun 3, 2006)

partspig said:


> Dan, Are you really going to listen to a Fray Racer's statements about how to build your arm? That does not sound like a sound business decision to me! Nor does it sound like what you would do. You need to make your arms as close the the original's as far as performance and the actual physical measurements.


It depends on the racer.
Many racers/builders I know are VERY good at getting everything out of an original armature. They know which ones to avoid, and which ones are potential winners. They could have some good ideas. 
I do think Dan will do EXACTLY what Dan wants, and needs to do to grow his buisness. And from what I've seen,that is as close to an OEM replacement as he can get.
The performance advantage will come from assembly improvments and "cold" soldering technology not available 30 years ago. FLAT and concentric commutators, Perfect shafts, non-slip stacks, and machine wound wire that is very close to ballanced........
THAT is what will make these great arms.

Hang on for an awsome ride.:thumbsup:


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

Dan, I wouldn't deviate from your path at all. Doing a drop-in replacement makes the most sense. I was just wondering why the design was what it was from a technical and material consumption perspective. Increasing air gap would not be good, and I'm sure an experiment with a slimline arm would confirm this. Yes, stock TJets need all they torque they can get to offset all the mechanical inefficiencies. Once they've been freed up however, a little more rpm potential is also welcome. This can be achieved by detuning the magnets as the car's torque need is lessened. Ideally, it would be nice to have both high torque and high rpm potentially all at the same time. I guess that's the builder's challenge, picking the right trade-off point for the particular racing scenario.

One thing that may still be an issue from a "direct replacement" perspective is the _actual delivered performance_. Many slot car racers are overly infatuated with the static resistance of an arm. They forget that there is more to an arms performance than the resistance of the windings. How the windings are laid down, the magnetic performance of the laminations, the electrical performance of the laminations (eddy current losses), the static mechanical balance, the aerodynamics (windage) of the winding profile, the distribution of mass along the moment arm formed by the winding holder, comm timing, etc., all factor into the total performance. Granted, using Chinese Innovation (aka - copy cat manufacturing) will get you you pretty close to the original - but what do you do if your _drop-in replacement_ arm, while spot-on in winding resistance is consistently 20% or more better on a dyno in the same chassis than the NOS arms? 

At what point does the real delta in seemingly identical arms from a tech-inspection standpoint become potentially disruptive? The reason I ask this is not to raise a fuss, but to point out that striving to achieve an identically appearing replacement arm may not be in the best interest of the sport. In my opinion it would be more fruitful to have the physical appearance be very obvious and to seek approval as a fully sanctioned comparable replacement. This lets the sanctioning body decide how wide the allowable tolerance is on comparable performance. Having a blatantly obvious way to differentiate parts is totally above board and will be in the best interest of everyone involved. 

So to answer your question about tech inspectors, I say take any mystery out of play and go directly after achieving full sanctioning for your part and make the fact that the arm is a Dash Motorsports built part very obvious. The slot car community will be nearly 100% behind you and will lend whatever support and voice they can to the cause. The formula is the same as the Dash Motorsports magnets, filling an obvious need without having to part-out collector cars or sit on the sidelines while the traditional supply channels dry up. You are doing the right thing.


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## lenny (Feb 29, 2000)

AfxToo said:


> One thing that may still be an issue from a "direct replacement" perspective is the _actual delivered performance_. Many slot car racers are overly infatuated with the static resistance of an arm. They forget that there is more to an arms performance than the resistance of the windings. How the windings are laid down, the magnetic performance of the laminations, the electrical performance of the laminations (eddy current losses), the static mechanical balance, the aerodynamics (windage) of the winding profile, the distribution of mass along the moment arm formed by the winding holder, comm timing, etc., all factor into the total performance. Granted, using Chinese Innovation (aka - copy cat manufacturing) will get you you pretty close to the original - but what do you do if your _drop-in replacement_ arm, while spot-on in winding resistance is consistently 20% or more better on a dyno in the same chassis than the NOS arms?


Dave,
What's your opinion of a stainless steel shaft?

Dan


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

Dan, I personally like the stainless steel armature shaft. When you look at severe duty motors that's what you'll find for durability's sake. I'd prefer the arm shaft also be non-magnetic or low magnetic since I see no advantage to bringing the armature shaft into the armature magnetization/demagnetization cycle, especially if you are using a better than stock grade silicon steel for the lams that has a tighter hysteresis curve than what you get with the NOS or JL arms. Durability is good and reducing the probability of parasitic magnetic losses is good, so what's not to like unless you are paying an undue premium for the stainless?

I saw the post about the drag guys and soldered gears. I understand, but the drag guys are going to strip the arm down to the core anyway and lay on a custom wind, and there is an abundant supply of arm blanks. I'd be more concerned about providing the greatest value for the most number of people who are going to use the arm as-is right out of the package.


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

Man, this has turned into quite a discussion.


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## tjetsgrig (Nov 1, 2009)

AfxToo said:


> I saw the post about the drag guys and soldered gears. I understand, but the drag guys are going to strip the arm down to the core anyway and lay on a custom wind, and there is an abundant supply of arm blanks. I'd be more concerned about providing the greatest value for the most number of people who are going to use the arm as-is right out of the package.




Your point is well taken! So, everyone can start sending me all their dead pancakes now!!


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## partspig (Mar 12, 2003)

lenny said:


> > My intent is to make these as close to original as possible. If my magnets would not have received FRAY approval, I doubt I would have sold as many as I have so far. The same line of thinking will be applied to the arm. It will be done with the intent and hope that FRAY, ECHORR, VHORS and others will approve it. So it will be with the same resistance (or close) and the same color lams and wire as the original Aurora arms that are FRAY approved.
> 
> 
> What does the color of the magnets have to do with getting them approved for FRAY or VHORS or anywhere? Doesn't the main criteria for getting those racing groups approval have anything to do with the performance of said part? Or is it that you just do not want to put your name on the product?
> ...


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## Pomfish (Oct 25, 2003)

What is an AML knock off?
American Line?

Thanks,
Keith


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## lenny (Feb 29, 2000)

partspig said:


> What does the color of the magnets have to do with getting them approved for FRAY or VHORS or anywhere? Doesn't the main criteria for getting those racing groups approval have anything to do with the performance of said part? Or is it that you just do not want to put your name on the product?


Dennis, where did I mention ANYTHING about the color of the magnets? I didn't specify a magnet color, that's what the factory sent from the first batch of prototypes and I never asked them to change it.

But as for the armature, many rules state that they need to be grey tipped and a certain color wire. That's what they'll be. I'm sorry you have an issue with that... 




partspig said:


> Ask any newbie if they know the difference between the original mean green, the AML knock off, and a Johnny Lightning armature. I bet most will not know. We know because wee have been in the hobby for years and know what to look for!


Are there that many new people coming into the hobby that are confusing an AW armature with a mean green? If that's the case, then start emailing Tom Lowe to change the color of HIS armatures. 

While on the topic of AW, I DO plan on offering a AW/JL gear plate 'upgrade' that will have my arm and full brass gears, on a gear plate made out of much superior thermoplastic... 





partspig said:


> Is there a way to tell stainless steel from steel by eye? I would use steel, just like the originals!


Don't know, it might shine more. Obviously no one noticed it in the pictures...


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## slotcarman12078 (Oct 3, 2008)

lenny said:


> While on the topic of AW, I DO plan on offering a AW/JL gear plate 'upgrade' that will have my arm and full brass gears, on a gear plate made out of much superior thermoplastic...


Yes!!!!! :thumbsup: :woohoo: :thumbsup:


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## win43 (Aug 28, 2006)

Dan,
It's your armature ...... " If you build it ........they will come" (use it)

AS for the AW gearplate upgrade YIPPEE!!!!!

Are you also planning to to a gearplate with a 9 tooth pinion for us "Old Folks" who just like to putter a round the track??


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## Dslot (Sep 2, 2007)

win43 said:


> Are you also planning to to a gearplate with a 9 tooth pinion for us "Old Folks" who just like to putter a round the track??


Oh, I _reeealy_ hope so. And by my birthday, if it isn't too much trouble.
:hat:


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## tjd241 (Jan 25, 2004)

*RE the armature photos....*

Did we ever find out which were "live" and which were "memorex" ?? I'm getting on in years, so I may have missed it. :dude: thx... nd


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## brownie374 (Nov 21, 2007)

lenny said:


> Dennis, where did I mention ANYTHING about the color of the magnets? I didn't specify a magnet color, that's what the factory sent from the first batch of prototypes and I never asked them to change it.
> 
> But as for the armature, many rules state that they need to be grey tipped and a certain color wire. That's what they'll be. I'm sorry you have an issue with that...
> 
> ...


That gearplate upgrade sounds sweet!!!


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## bearsox (Apr 22, 2006)

lenny said:


> While on the topic of AW, I DO plan on offering a AW/JL gear plate 'upgrade' that will have my arm and full brass gears, on a gear plate made out of much superior thermoplastic...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*Dan ,
i'm happy your gonna offer up the gearplate upgrade and assuming the arms do turn out better that's going to be a nice help. As for the steel VS stainless debate 1st stick with steel and 2nd not to disparage your camera work but..... don't quit your day job LOL. Those pics would be hard pressed to win any photo awards . So picking one of these is not like the other is difficult at best and more leaning towards the impossible if color variations or wire size or worse yet what's in a shadowy areas is key . Still we thank you for your efforts and do hope for your success !

Bear :wave:*


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## lenny (Feb 29, 2000)

bearsox said:


> *...steel VS stainless debate ... stick with steel ...*


why?.


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## sethndaddy (Dec 4, 2004)

lenny said:


> why?.


?? I wonder too. Isn't Stainless steel an improvement over regular steel? I thought it was.
If it was me I would have went for the stainless steel myself.


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## lenny (Feb 29, 2000)

bearsox said:


> *not to disparage your camera work but..... don't quit your day job LOL. Those pics would be hard pressed to win any photo awards . So picking one of these is not like the other is difficult at best and more leaning towards the impossible if color variations or wire size or worse yet what's in a shadowy areas is key .
> *


the pics are fine and get the point across, but I'm relieved to know that if I need photo advice in the future, I can turn to you!!:dude:


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## bearsox (Apr 22, 2006)

lenny said:


> why?.


i suppose the most important reason would be the simplest one and that would be to benefit a large group of potential buyers . That would be the drag racers for the reasons mentioned earlier in this thread. Assuming the benefit otherwise would be minimal going to stainless if at all , then a drag racer may opt for staying with what he knows and can work with better. A soldered arm pinion just holds up better than a press fit in drag racing and stainless being what it is well...... 

Bear :wave:


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## bearsox (Apr 22, 2006)

lenny said:


> the pics are fine and get the point across, but I'm relieved to know that if I need photo advice in the future, I can turn to you!!:dude:


Yes u can LOL :freak:

Bear :wave:


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## lenny (Feb 29, 2000)

bearsox said:


> i suppose the most important reason would be the simplest one and that would be to benefit a large group of potential buyers . That would be the drag racers for the reasons mentioned earlier in this thread. Assuming the benefit otherwise would be minimal going to stainless if at all , then a drag racer may opt for staying with what he knows and can work with better. A soldered arm pinion just holds up better than a press fit in drag racing and stainless being what it is well......
> 
> Bear :wave:


thank you for your opinion...


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

How many drag racers are going to mount a 15 ohm arm? 

If drag racers were a primary target market for armatures than I would think that they would want a bare armature designed with drag racing in mind. For example something you could buy with specific comm timing, either advanced or retarded, a tougher comm plate, stiffer comm backing plate, perhaps some keys/slots to help the windings lay in and stay in better, tighter tolerances on the shaft dimensions, better mechanical balance, etc. Kind of like using a V8 with 4-bolt mains and cross drilled crank as a foundation for a drag car. If you're going to target a specific market you should cater to the needs of that market, which I think is what Dash is doing with its drop-in replacement parts for stock and superstock TJets. 

It sounds like there's a "large" market for drag arm blanks. Maybe someone who is looking to sell into that "large" market will step up and deliver. Galinko perhaps? The money is on the table. But until someone steps up with drag arm blanks because that's their calling, it sounds like Dan is following his calling to serve the needs of a different market. If he makes a profit maybe he will take some photography lessons. Say "cheese."


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## bearsox (Apr 22, 2006)

AfxToo said:


> How many drag racers are going to mount a 15 ohm arm?
> 
> If drag racers were a primary target market for armatures than I would think that they would want a bare armature designed with drag racing in mind. For example something you could buy with specific comm timing, either advanced or retarded, a tougher comm plate, stiffer comm backing plate, perhaps some keys/slots to help the windings lay in and stay in better, tighter tolerances on the shaft dimensions, better mechanical balance, etc. Kind of like using a V8 with 4-bolt mains and cross drilled crank as a foundation for a drag car. If you're going to target a specific market you should cater to the needs of that market, which I think is what Dash is doing with its drop-in replacement parts for stock and superstock TJets.
> 
> It sounds like there's a "large" market for drag arm blanks. Maybe someone who is looking to sell into that "large" market will step up and deliver. Galinko perhaps? The money is on the table. But until someone steps up with drag arm blanks because that's their calling, it sounds like Dan is following his calling to serve the needs of a different market. If he makes a profit maybe he will take some photography lessons. Say "cheese."


Drag racing as with road racing is about options and classes. Just as there is a baseline class or stock in road racing you will find similar in drag. From that point it's about variables to your builds to the point that road racing has Fray / VHORS etc and Drag has unlimited . Thus saying a drag racer will or won't use a good new arm for a class simply isn't true. If it's good it's good and if it fits the class rules great. Top that off with you being correct on a need for quality blanks and.... drag guys will likely ALSO buy these arms for blanks to do there own winds in the interum assuming a steel shaft is used. By maintaining the status quo regarding the shaft ( served well for years ) in effect you would be serving more people as no one could say they feel SHAFTED LOL ( sorry too good a line not to insert and use hehe ). Hope this helps to clear the confusion some. 

Bear :wave:


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## lenny (Feb 29, 2000)

bearsox said:


> Drag racing as with road racing is about options and classes. Just as there is a baseline class or stock in road racing you will find similar in drag. From that point it's about variables to your builds to the point that road racing has Fray / VHORS etc and Drag has unlimited . Thus saying a drag racer will or won't use a good new arm for a class simply isn't true. If it's good it's good and if it fits the class rules great. Top that off with you being correct on a need for quality blanks and.... drag guys will likely ALSO buy these arms for blanks to do there own winds in the interum assuming a steel shaft is used. By maintaining the status quo regarding the shaft ( served well for years ) in effect you would be serving more people as no one could say they feel SHAFTED LOL ( sorry too good a line not to insert and use hehe ). Hope this helps to clear the confusion some.
> 
> Bear :wave:


 there are literally MILLIONS of original 'status quo' Aurora arms that can be used by the drag racers. Really, if using a stainless steel shaft offers an advantage, I'm not going to create an inferior product just because a small niche of people in an already miniscule niche market might want to use the arm as a base for drag racing. It's just not a smart decision. 

But thank you anyway for your input!!:wave::wave::wave::wave::wave:

Now, are there any other GOOD reasons you can think of for not using a stainless steel shaft?


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## Brixmix (Dec 2, 2007)

What is the cost difference? Stainless is more expensive and would tend to cost more to machine since it harder. That would be something to look at


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## bearsox (Apr 22, 2006)

lenny said:


> : there are literally MILLIONS of original 'status quo' Aurora arms that can be used by the drag racers. Really, if using a stainless steel shaft offers an advantage, I'm not going to create an inferior product just because a small niche of people in an already miniscule niche market might want to use the arm as a base for drag racing. It's just not a smart decision.
> 
> But thank you anyway for your input!!
> 
> Now, are there any other GOOD reasons you can think of for not using a stainless steel shaft?


LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL ! Point was the original steel shafts served and continues to serve well for ALL types of racing . By changing to stainless you potentially could cut your sales as one group would be less likely to buy due to ability to use. Assuming bottom line sales is what your looking for then staying with steel is a valid point . So if additional sales are not a GOOD reason then by all means i see no other reason not to change

Thanks for your time :wave::wave::wave::wave:


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## lenny (Feb 29, 2000)

bearsox said:


> Point was the original steel shafts served and continues to serve well for ALL types of racing . By changing to stainless you potentially could cut your sales as one group would be less likely to buy due to ability to use. Assuming bottom line sales is what your looking for then staying with steel is a valid point . So if additional sales are not a GOOD reason then by all means i see no other reason not to change


Dennis,
This 'drag race' topic was discussed like back 3 pages when brought up by another member. We all understood it back then, but we REALLY understand it now that you've taken the time to verbosely beat it to death.:beatdeadhorse:

Again, thank you. I believe we've sufficiently covered the drag race issue.:wave::wave::wave::wave:


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## lenny (Feb 29, 2000)

Brixmix said:


> What is the cost difference? Stainless is more expensive and would tend to cost more to machine since it harder. That would be something to look at


No price difference, according to the factory. :thumbsup:


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## SCJ (Jul 15, 1999)

lenny said:


> Aside from not working in a magnetic balancer, I'd like to hear some pros and cons of a T-Jet arm with a stainless steel shaft.


 
I'm not sure this is a good Vs bad thing and of course you can make what you want, it’s your money. However, since you asked the open question I thought I would throw in my .02¢ worth as I see each material having potentials pro's and con's. Since I have not seen where you mention the type (austenitic, ferritic, martensitic or precipitation hardened) or grade of CRES or Inox Steel (Stainless Steel) your thinking of using nor did I see where you mention if it will it be hardened, polished etc. I will go off some assumptions in that you’re using a standard 300 series Inox and that each shaft will be machined.

Since I’m going with some assumptions as I don't have one to test with, below are my list of things to consider……you decide if they are Pro’s or Con’s.

*WHY:* Did the manufacture decide to use CRES in the first place, do they know or suspect something we don't?
*Cost:* Does CRES cost more, too much so, and it’s not worth it.
*Magnetism:* CRES is not magnetic does it make a difference?
*Weight:* Inox has a different weight (albeit minimal) does it change handling characteristics of the chassis.
*Heat Transfer:* Inox has a different heat transfer ratio does it make a difference.
*Gear press:* Inox is harder, does it make a difference, what about reusing gears, gear slip etc. as soldering is not an option.
*Polishing:* While most of us have polished our shafts at one time or another (Doh, did that come out right?)……how does the Inox you’re using react to this 
*Corrosion:* Inox doesn’t corrode as easily, it may spin easier/longer
*Lubricant:* Most racers use very light weight oil on their cars, does Inox temps effect this?

*OTHER: *Since your manufacture has presented you with alternatives, have you looked into Aluminum, CRES tubing (Even less weight), runs cooler etc., or maybe a Carbon steel?

Just thinking out loud. 


-------------------------
www.SlotCarJohnnies.com


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## lenny (Feb 29, 2000)

SCJ said:


> I'm not sure this is a good Vs bad thing and of course you can make what you want, it’s your money. However, since you asked the open question I thought I would throw in my .02¢ worth as I see each material having potentials pro's and con's. Since I have not seen where you mention the type (austenitic, ferritic, martensitic or precipitation hardened) or grade of CRES or Inox Steel (Stainless Steel) your thinking of using nor did I see where you mention if it will it be hardened, polished etc. I will go off some assumptions in that you’re using a standard 300 series Inox and that each shaft will be machined.
> 
> Since I’m going with some assumptions as I don't have one to test with, below are my list of things to consider……you decide if they are Pro’s or Con’s.
> 
> ...


Johnny,
Do you happen to know the type and grade of steel used in the original Aurora arms? All I know is that it's magnetic, and you can solder a gear on it.


Dan


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## SCJ (Jul 15, 1999)

lenny said:


> Johnny,
> Do you happen to know the type and grade of steel used in the original Aurora arms? All I know is that it's magnetic, and you can solder a gear on it.
> 
> 
> Dan


 
Dan-


Sorry, never had the need........it can be checked though, through a Vickers (and other) forms of testing. I have several NOS Tjet gear shafts if you need any, just LMK.


BTW, my personal opinion is it will work fine and if it doesn't cost anything extra, why not.......the HO "pro inline" and 1:24 guys use the CRES tubing, 300 series hardened needle blanks I believe.​ 


-------------------------
www.SlotCarJohnnies.com


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## tjetsgrig (Nov 1, 2009)

My opinions as a drag winder aside, stainless would be better for your target customer base. I know these motors intimately and I know how the shafts can wear grooves in them. The only motors I solder on are for my really hot setup. I've actually snapped a shaft off of a motor during launch before. If it is durability and performance you are after, go with the stainless!!


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

Hey Dan,

Perhaps the stainless idea is something that could be developed after the release of the plain jane replicant versions. 

Seems to me if you developed a solid status quo t-jet collector/fray arm that became successful, you could later offer a "Sportsman" armatures with stainless steel shafts, mechanically ballanced, in a few of the common/popular winds.

Just spitballen' ... dont stone me guys!


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## bearsox (Apr 22, 2006)

lenny said:


> Dennis,
> This 'drag race' topic was discussed like back 3 pages when brought up by another member. We all understood it back then, but we REALLY understand it now that you've taken the time to verbosely beat it to death.:beatdeadhorse:
> 
> Again, thank you. I believe we've sufficiently covered the drag race issue.:wave::wave:


 Dan ,
i didn't post to this subject till yesterday and when i did post that 1st time no mention of drag racing was mentioned . Your follow up post was to ask why i mentioned stick with steel . Well Dan if the response required mentioning drag racing it's a bit hard not to explain the what's and why's and give an answer. The later post was simply a followup as another poster could then see that classes exist in other forms of racing and why one shaft MAY or may not bring in more sales etc . Sorry dude but you did ask and so you got answers. :dude:

Bear :wave::wave:


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

Beating a dead horse is one thing, but beating a gift horse is quite another.

Whatever bits and pieces go into it, I know I can trust Dash Motorsports to deliver a top notch and high quality product at a fair price. I am just grateful to be able to enjoy the many benefits that devoted entrepreneurs like Dan, and Slot Car Johnny who is also on the thread, provide for our hobby. Thanks again Dan for doing all the heavy lifting. I wish you much success with this venture.


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## lenny (Feb 29, 2000)

bearsox said:


> Dan ,
> i didn't post to this subject till yesterday and when i did post that 1st time no mention of drag racing was mentioned . Your follow up post was to ask why i mentioned stick with steel . Well Dan if the response required mentioning drag racing it's a bit hard not to explain the what's and why's and give an answer. The later post was simply a followup as another poster could then see that classes exist in other forms of racing and why one shaft MAY or may not bring in more sales etc . Sorry dude but you did ask and so you got answers. :dude:
> 
> Bear :wave::wave:


enough already... Jeez, if you saw the post with my question regarding stainless vs 'status quo', the one regarding drag racing by tjetsgrig was right there with it. How you missed it is a mystery. So I asked, and it was answered. A few days ago. 

But as always, you're right Dennis. I'll make this to YOUR specifications, OK? Just...Let...It...REST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :beatdeadhorse::beatdeadhorse::beatdeadhorse::beatdeadhorse::beatdeadhorse::beatdeadhorse::beatdeadhorse:


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## brownie374 (Nov 21, 2007)

bearsox said:


> i suppose the most important reason would be the simplest one and that would be to benefit a large group of potential buyers . That would be the drag racers for the reasons mentioned earlier in this thread. Assuming the benefit otherwise would be minimal going to stainless if at all , then a drag racer may opt for staying with what he knows and can work with better. A soldered arm pinion just holds up better than a press fit in drag racing and stainless being what it is well......
> 
> Bear :wave:


Stainless can be soldered I have done it many times you just need special acid flux


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## bearsox (Apr 22, 2006)

Dan ,
i was refering to post #55 where you ask ME why . Hence I replied because you ask me to do so. The earlier posts and discussion may have been with Dennis AKA parts pig ? No horses were harmed in my earlier posts as i used my typical hand wave. You may however look into dropping the club ! Ahh what the heck here we go :beatdeadhorse: Now i got me one LOL . Ok horsey is dead bye !

Bear :wave:


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## lenny (Feb 29, 2000)

bearsox said:


> Dan ,
> i was refering to post #55 where you ask ME why . Hence I replied because you ask me to do so. The earlier posts and discussion may have been with Dennis AKA parts pig ? No horses were harmed in my earlier posts as i used my typical hand wave. You may however look into dropping the club ! Ahh what the heck here we go :beatdeadhorse: Now i got me one LOL .
> 
> Bear :wave:


Dude,
go back and read the whole sequence on the 23rd. You obviously read what you wanted to and jumped into a conversation half educated. 

It's impossible to 'harm' a dead horse, just ignorant to do so.

Now please, if you want to 'discuss' this further, email me. The address is on the Dash website, if nowhere else.

Thank you.


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## T-Jet Racer (Nov 16, 2006)

4th row top and bottom. But they do look great!! Going to do a quad too?


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## bearsox (Apr 22, 2006)

lenny said:


> Dude,
> go back and read the whole sequence on the 23rd. You obviously read what you wanted to and jumped into a conversation half educated.
> 
> It's impossible to 'harm' a dead horse, just ignorant to do so.
> ...


*email me if you like that would be fine as well . It's obvious you miss my attempts at humor IE LOL HEHE harming a dead horse etc LOL some more . Poking a bit of fun here and there is just what some of us do with each other . I included you in the taking pictures and don't quit your day job comment assuming you had a sense of humor ? Ahh well i tried but you failed to see and i guess i did miss whatever your point was as well. So email me as i say and i'll even give ya my phone number if you like . I'm easy going and joke around alot but if i can truely help ya i will do so. [email protected] 

Bear :wave: *


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## grungerockjeepe (Jan 8, 2007)

AfxToo said:


> Beating a dead horse is one thing, but beating a gift horse is quite another.
> 
> Whatever bits and pieces go into it, I know I can trust Dash Motorsports to deliver a top notch and high quality product at a fair price. I am just grateful to be able to enjoy the many benefits that devoted entrepreneurs like Dan, and Slot Car Johnny who is also on the thread, provide for our hobby. Thanks again Dan for doing all the heavy lifting. I wish you much success with this venture.


Ditto.


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## partspig (Mar 12, 2003)

What the heck does a dead horse got to do with armatures anyways?


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## hojoe (Dec 1, 2004)

I just reread this entire thread. When the hell are you gonna tell us which arms are your's?
hojoe


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

partspig said:


> What the heck does a dead horse got to do with armatures anyways?


Horse patte' is part of the tempering process when making stainless steel.


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## smalltime (Jun 3, 2006)

Bill Hall said:


> Horse patte' is part of the tempering process when making stainless steel.


Is that why they killed all of those horses in the Conan movies?


"You must learn its riddle, Conan. You must learn its discipline. For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men, not women, not beasts..............This, you can trust."


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## Ogre (Jan 31, 2007)

grungerockjeepe said:


> Ditto.


 +2 :woohoo:


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## tjd241 (Jan 25, 2004)

*No wonder he lost The Tonight Show...*



smalltime said:


> Is that why they killed all of those horses in the Conan movies?


.... seriously though... which 2 pictured were the new ones?  nd


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## lenny (Feb 29, 2000)

tjd241 said:


> .... seriously though... which 2 pictured were the new ones?  nd


4 and 14


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## SCJ (Jul 15, 1999)

lenny said:


> 4 and 14


 







tjd241....we won the prize :thumbsup:.

I'm doing the happy dance, where are you?



--------------------------
www.SlotCarJohnnies.com


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

dont be running off with my cut of that prize money!


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## tjetsgrig (Nov 1, 2009)

Hey.......I want a piece, that was my call too!!!


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

lenny said:


> let me answer that with a question. If out of a picture of 14 armatures, people can't pick out the Dash arms from the original Aurora arms, how are they going to be teched out of a race, assuming that they meet all the other criteria?


Actually, for one reason or another I think most of us did. :dude:


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## oldtoyguy (May 31, 2009)

I need some complete chassis CHEAP ! 
I AM POOR


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## tjd241 (Jan 25, 2004)

*Whaddya mean "WE" George Washington?*



SCJ said:


> tjd241....*we* won the prize :thumbsup:.


... Funny?... I don't remember all you guys being here with me as I typed the *first* correct answer to the question. .... Yer hangers-on and wanna-be's... every last one of ya's. :lol: nd


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## shipsgunner (Sep 6, 2008)

tjd241 said:


> ... Funny?... I don't remember all you guys being here with me as I typed the *first* correct answer to the question. .... Yer hangers-on and wanna-be's... every last one of ya's. :lol: nd


Whaddya mean "hangers on".... we are playing with 50 year old cars... All of us are "hangers on"...

LOL
Dan


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## LDThomas (Nov 30, 1999)

*Oh, really...*



tjd241 said:


> ... Funny?... I don't remember all you guys being here with me as I typed the *first* correct answer to the question. .... Yer hangers-on and wanna-be's... every last one of ya's. :lol: nd


Just because some people don't have a life and camp out on this board doesn't make the rest of us "wanna-be's". :tongue: :wave:


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## tjd241 (Jan 25, 2004)

shipsgunner said:


> Whaddya mean "hangers on".... we are playing with 50 year old cars... All of us are "hangers on


 True enough 'gunner... Especially in *my* case, because then yer talkin *antiques* collecting antiques... :lol:... LD, seriously?... No life?  ... Camping? ... I actually lead a full life and I hate camping... Rest assured, my post was written with tongue *(firmly)* in cheek... and a lucky guess on my part. :wave: nd


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## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)

All y'all suck. 

Just because.

:tongue: :wave::lol:


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## joegri (Feb 13, 2008)

any movement on the sale and availability of the new dash arms? kinda wantin to spool 1 up with the new dash mags!!!


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## Joe65SkylarkGS (Feb 15, 2010)

Some bunch here. I read alot of this and whew!!

Lenny, how did you make out and when are they going to be for sale?


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