# What's the appeal of pancake cars over inline?



## bemoore

I think I must be missing something. I don't understand the appeal of pancake cars over inlines for organized racing.

I've been around slots for a while. I was racing slots when the Fray started, and the whole tjet resurgence started. And I thought it was a good thing. Magnet cars had become supersonic blobs, and the realm of the speed freaks. However, it seems to me that tjet racing is going the same direction. When tjets started making a comeback, I thought it was great. Slower cars, better scale appearance, nice fishtailing action, etc. Then the Fray happened, and the cars started looking like blobs again. My 440X2's and SG+'s look better. I still LOVE some of the original and new tjet bodies of old muscle cars and old race cars, but these new racing bodies (that ARE required if you want to be competitive) have gone the way of 1:24 scale "thingies", and HO magnet car "blobs". The cars are finicky, they're not very robust, and they require lots of maintenance. In the local club races, every event sees much activity just getting the cars to get around the track smoothly. Every event sees tires falling off, and usually more than one case of squealing armature. One track is a very long, high HP track. I've only run on it once. According to the owner, tjet idler gears will last ONE race. After one event (four, three minute heats), the internals of his car are covered with brass dust. He buys idler gears in bulk. On the other hand, an inline car will run for several HOURS before needing replacement parts. And my inline experience is with magnet cars, which are MUCH faster, and put out WAY more power than a tjet, which SHOULD result in more wear and tear. So it would stand to reason that the new inline no-mag cars (G-jet, P-jet, etc) should go even farther and longer with less maintenance and repairs. And a competitive Fray car has become expensive. About $150 from a builder. And no, I'm not saying that this is a ripoff. Given what goes into making a competitive car, this is probably a bargain. But it seems like trying to turn a Model T into a Corvette, for more money than a Corvette costs. G-jets are $59, and as I understand, are similar in speed to a ECHORR SS tjet, but will be smoother, more reliable, and require less maintenance. I've run multiple endurance events with magnet cars, usually with something like a ceramic mag Super Stock. Generally no problems for anybody unless they experience too many hard hits. With tjets, I'm convinced that such an event would be an exercise in who could replace parts the fastest.

I still like pancake cars, and I think they're great for IROC racing, where you just need 4 cars of similar speed, and could be fitted with 4 cool (non blob) bodies. But once the mods are allowed to take these cars to the level they are now, they no longer seems to make sense.

So... given the current state of what's available... and what tjet racing has become... what's the appeal of pancake cars over inline for organized racing? What am I missing?


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## Ralphthe3rd

I Just LOVE T-Jets, the old school stuff, but I hate Blob bodies, and Hate Super-Sonic T-Jets(especially Fray type Cars).... just MY .02¢


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## Gear Head

The smell


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## LeeRoy98

bemoore said:


> The cars are finicky, they're not very robust, and they require lots of maintenance. In the local club races, every event sees much activity just getting the cars to get around the track smoothly. Every event sees tires falling off, and usually more than one case of squealing armature. One track is a very long, high HP track. I've only run on it once. According to the owner, tjet idler gears will last ONE race. After one event (four, three minute heats), the internals of his car are covered with brass dust. He buys idler gears in bulk.


Nostalgia for one... more realistic speed for another. 

But if someone is eating up the idler gears on a t-jet... then something is setup dreadfully wrong. 
My 24' X 6' oval is a horsepower track. We have run multiple 20 lap heats and 100 lap mains on it and I have NEVER had an idler gear failure on a T-jet nor have I ever seen the experience you are referencing. 

Gary
AKA LeeRoy98
www.marioncountyraceway.com


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## Boosted-Z71

I have built T-jets that have thousands of laps on them and gear set is still in great shape, its all in how you set them up, and if they are "right". The example you speak of comes from cheap gears, worn top plates, not lapping the gears together & too much run out on the crown gear. If I wasted a set of gears in one race on one of my built cars I would be finding out why before I slapped another set into it. Yes they are finicky, but once they are setup they will turn lap after lap with no problems with just a little care.

As for why I like the t-jets over the magnet cars, it comes down to the challenge to hang out that rear end around a corner or snap it out with the throttle on the exit, I know with the magnet cars that I may launch it off the track on a full throttle turn exit but that's about as exciting as its going to get. Just something about that T-jet wiggle that makes it real. For what its worth the T-jet Drag car I just entered in build going on here was waxing all my Super Stock in-lines including a very hot Life like chassis in heads up drag competition on my 15 foot straights with both cars at 25+ volts, so not all t-jets are slow by any means. 

Part of the lure is to be able to build your own little monster to be competitive. 

Boosted


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## Boosted-Z71

Here is what we run, and they are a blast, Jl's with the traction magnet, set up to Fray/Echor rules, JL stock arm, magnets etc, no chassis cutting etc. I am building 10 of these for my Son, his friends, and myself to race with, I doubt I will have $20 in each car when I am finished. I use any Lifelike full body that I can get cheap off of E-bay. The only thing that would make these chassis better is brush cup setup, as it takes forever to get the stock Jl brush arms bent correctly and then getting them to stay that way is another story. We just ran a 500 lap race on an 85 foot lane length course with this one last Sat. it ran the entire time & finished with lap times just as fast as when it started. I tore it down to see if it needed brushes and to look for wear, after polishing the com it looks like brand new. 

Boosted


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## alpink

there are various classes that have different rules for pancake cars. i pretty much only drag race them. but I have a few FRAY style cars for when I am in ROME and I haven't had to replace gears after easily a thousand laps and many hours of pleasure. 
on the other hand, the quickest inline drag cars i have eat parts: commutators(which generally requires replacing the entire arm), electrics(brushes, springs, shunts, pickups with braids) in the range of 3 to 10 passes. on occasion a completely brand new one, barely broken in, will grenade on it's first complete pass(which turns out to be incomplete in most cases). 
so, really, it is what turns you on that you will seek to compete with, not the endurance or value of parts and maintenance.


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## Marty

For me it is nostalgia mostly. The T-Jet pancake motor revolutionized HO slot car racing. Prior to them you REALLY had to work to get your car to make a decent lap, do it consistently, and stay reliable. Also, I don't care for unrealistic speeds of magnet cars.

MOO

Marty
Marysville, OH


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## bemoore

LeeRoy98 said:


> Nostalgia for one... more realistic speed for another.


OK. I can understand this... for stock class. But for the Fray type cars, the speed is only more realistic in comparison to magnet cars. Fray cars are several times faster than scale. And the bodies don't create any kind of nostalgia for me the way the original bodies do.



LeeRoy98 said:


> But if someone is eating up the idler gears on a t-jet... then something is setup dreadfully wrong.
> My 24' X 6' oval is a horsepower track. We have run multiple 20 lap heats and 100 lap mains on it and I have NEVER had an idler gear failure on a T-jet nor have I ever seen the experience you are referencing.


OK. That's good to know. I wasn't looking forward to doing a rebuild after each race.



Boosted-Z71 said:


> Yes they are finicky, but once they are setup they will turn lap after lap with no problems with just a little care.


OK. Glad to hear that. Maybe my sensitivity is due to myself and another mag car racer who are having teething issues getting our cars to stay running, with tires that don't come off....



Boosted-Z71 said:


> As for why I like the t-jets over the magnet cars,


Note that I didn't say tjets vs magnet cars. I said pancake cars vs inlines. G-Jet type cars would seem to offer everything a Fray tjet has, but in a more durable and reliable package, and at a lower cost.



Boosted-Z71 said:


> it comes down to the challenge to hang out that rear end around a corner or snap it out with the throttle on the exit,


Again, this type of driving is supposedly the same with the G-Jet type cars.



Boosted-Z71 said:


> For what its worth the T-jet Drag car I just entered in build going on here was waxing all my Super Stock in-lines including a very hot Life like chassis in heads up drag competition on my 15 foot straights with both cars at 25+ volts, so not all t-jets are slow by any means.


Yeah. I have a non MT AFX that will, with slip ons, spin the tires all the way down a 30 ft straight. I know that they CAN be fast. But it's still a cumbersome design. 4 gears, 3 gear meshes, and a gear plate. Compared to two gears, one gear mesh, and no gear plate. An electrical system that's not easily serviced (can't clean the top of the pickup hangars), or replaced (since it's part of the chassis), compared to one in which each individual part is easily replaced.

I won't deny the historical importance of the tjet. Without it, we may very well not have HO scale slot cars. Vibes probably wouldn't have generated the interest to expand the hobby. But just like with the Model T, we have much better options for racing.


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## Marty

bemoore said:


> But for the Fray type cars, the speed is only more realistic in comparison to magnet cars. Fray cars are several times faster than scale. And the bodies don't create any kind of nostalgia for me the way the original bodies do.


Fray cars are fast, but they are FUGLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MOO

Marty
Marysville, OH


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## tjetsgrig

Gear Head said:


> The smell


:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: For one! My personal feeling is they take more "skill" as a builder to get them to "go fast"! I'll put my pancakes up against anyones inlines anyday!! That is "if" thay can wind their own inlines, of which, I can do both!! Provided, I can get my hands on some good inline comms......


JS


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## A/FX Nut

Hi bemoore,

You can lobby for a Stock Thunderjet Class like we run in my basement. It's an Aurora Thunderjet Chassis with 4 skinny tires. No hop up parts. Just slip on silicone skinny tires. Basically a Box Stock Chassis. With an Aurora, Johnny Lightning/Autoworld, Model Motoring, or resisn hard plastic body. We don't want to drive up the cost with modified Fray cars.

As for the preference of the pancake cars, I think it's a reminder of our childhood. My first memories of the pancake cars is my older cousin's Thunderjets. I remember seeing those cool looking cars. And when I saw the gears through the back windows turning, I was blown away. I was 7 or 8 years old. 

The next Christmas my brother and I got an A/FX Golden Gate Raceset. We had so much fun with it.

Randy.


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## SpiderRPM

bemoore, 
I'm glad you brought this conversation/debate up. It's threads like this that help 
me fill in the gaps concerning the past 20 years of slot cars.

I played with slots in the 70's but spent most of my slot time in the early to 
mid 80's (I'm 37) when most cars were much harder to find and every hobby 
shop was closing up. For a kid, the inline Tycos were most abundant and
practically piling up at Toys R Us stores. It's good for me to learn the time
line of events..and threads like this really help. I love this internet thing.


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## pshoe64

Years ago we used to race 2 classes based on Winston Cup (Inline chassis) and Busch (Pancake chassis). Simple rules, I think the inline cars were allowed to use the HPS hop up kit which had a mild rewound arm, silver brushes and silicon rear tires for the bargain price of $4.95 and a Lexan body. The pancakes ran AFX Magnatractions with slip on silicons and a clear Lexan body and some of us used the 19 tooth crowns from Super II kits. Cheap, easy and fun. Some guys only ran the class that appealed to them, some ran both, but we all had a good time.

-Paul


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## Joe65SkylarkGS

AFXnut hit it on the head, it brings us back to a better time.

My childhood was great. I am just lucky I guess. Brooklyn in the lates 60's to the 70's was an unbelievable time. A ton of friends, never any trouble, and we did everything in giant groups!! We had a block football, baseball, roller hockey and whatever ewlse you could lump in there. Always a great summer, then in ther cold months, most of the guys raced Aurora T-Jets.

Thats how it is for me at least.

Oh and one more huge reason of coarse is that undenieable smell


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## SpiderRPM

Joe65SkylarkGS said:


> Oh and one more huge reason of coarse is that undenieable smell


When I was testing out my track the other night, it was the first time I did 
more than just a lap or two. I ran my car for about 15 minutes...then I finally
got the smell. I swear, a thousand memories hit me at once. Crazy how that 
works. And crazy how the smell is unique to almost anything..there is just 
nothing like it.


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## Slott V

Mmmm me loves the smell of blueberry pancakes yum lol :tongue:


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## bemoore

I get the nostalgia bit, and the smell. I love that smell, too. But the Fray cars just don't trigger the nostalgia. A Model T modified into a modern day Corvette doesn't have the nostalgia of a Model T anymore.


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## alpink

what is the intense focus on the FRAY cars? i think that I think that I get that YOU don't like them. no one is holding a gun to your head and making you play with them. what is the agenda?


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## bemoore

alpink said:


> what is the intense focus on the FRAY cars? i think that I think that I get that YOU don't like them. no one is holding a gun to your head and making you play with them. what is the agenda?


Why are you implying that I have an agenda? What is YOUR agenda?

I understand the appeal of stock and slightly modified tjets. They appeal to me, too, so long as they remain looking like real cars from the 60's & 70's. It's the Fray cars that I don't understand. That's my reason for focusing on those.


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## Dyno Dom

We started running inlines about 30 yrs. ago. Our club began with Tyco,
had a quick fling with Life Likes thru Tomy & currently to BSRT & Wizz cars.
Inlines offer a snap together durable fast car with limited tools.
I like the G-Jet car, a modern inline without traction mags that offers
nostalgic performance. Another benefit is the choice of Lexan or hard bodies.
Pancake racing is fun. Unfortunately, our club has little interest due to the
cost & time to hoard/sort original parts. I've attempted to offer an alternative
class called the "Fracas car." These run AW/JL factory stock armature,
chassis, gears & magnets. All other parts can be updated. Body choice
is any non-ballast manufacturer for screw post design. The intent is to have
a fair chance for everyone to compete with all readily available parts.


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## AfxToo

I don't get the "pancake OVER inline" assertion. If you're really talking about getting totally immersed into the HO slot car hobby you should really be talking about "pancake AND inline" because they are two different entrees on the menu that the total HO slot car hobby has to offer. Inline has never and will never be competing against pancakes because they are so widely divergent and offer a unique experience by themselves. I love the pancake cars every bit as I love the inlines, and I have a crapload of both types in my race case and collection. To me the pancake powered cars are wickedly appealing because they are ridiculously and overly complex Rube Goldberg contraptions that nobody in their right mind would see as "racing machines" yet we bend and morph the reality of these things to match OUR will and turn the little suckers into little speedsters nonetheless. I can't count the number of times I've seen a hot little TJet whipping around a track and not being totally amazed at what someone has been able to do to make the thing a real race car. To me that process captures and intrigues the same part of my brain that had me wrenching on 1:1 beaters back in the days of American Muscle Cars and trying to tweak a few tenths from persnickety old Detroit Iron.


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## alpink

I have seen several people mention that there are all kinds of people in the world with all kinds of tastes and preferences. 
how can anyone explain why they like something to someone who absolutely does not like that same thing?
I recognize that this is YOUR thread and I really shouldn't even have the temerity to post in it.
so, I guess my agenda is why do you keep on making insults to those that prefer something you don't prefer?
it appears to me, and this is purely my opinion and view, that you are intentionally trying to cause grief to those that do like their blob FRAY car bodies and chassis that are set up to handle almost like magnet cars but without magnets. 
I guess I don't really understand what you are asking? 
I thought some folks had, rather clearly, explained the attraction to specific types of handling characteristics.
but, i might have read between the lines and understood something that was not inferred!


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## Bill Hall

*Uhhhhh....gen....duh?*

The simple anwer is that they are apples and oranges...

both mechanically and philosophically.


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## Gareth

This is an interesting topic for me. 

I race at a club and nationally in the UK and the focus is very much on magnet missiles which I enjoy because we race on very large circuits with a small track being around 80 feet all the way up to the 215 foot new North Kent track which I know a number of few have seen and drooled over on its thread. On a track that size, an inline magnet car makes sense and is exciting to drive. 

But on my nearly finished home road track which is on a 6.5 by 4 foot board, a Magnatraction is definitely my preferred chassis of choice. You can really attack the track and make the most of every straight. At the moment I've only driven this track with stock Tomy controllers. I've just installed driver stations so once I've finished painting it, the track will be ready to rock with a variable power supply and I'm looking forward to trying my Tjets and also brass weighted Turbos and other chassis. 

I don't like the look of the Fray cars although the one with the LifeLike body posted earlier looked a lot better although slightly like a Drag car with its wheels not quite matching body. 

I think that the size of track dictates what car is going to be most enjoyable. The HP7s I own are as fun as the Magnatractions as they have similar slip and slide and aren't reliant on the magnet. I'll try and post more on this along with hopefully video and photos when the track is finished. 

Just my 2 cents! As long as everyone is enjoying racing HO, that's the main thing!


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## Sir Slotsalot

Please pass the syrup and the bacon. LOL!!!


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## Dyno Dom

Different strokes for different folks! 
You pay your money & make your choice!
I like the AW/JL chassis, everyone deals equally with it's idiosyncrasies
within a racing class. Possibly someday, a high quality T-Jet replacement chassis will be available.


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## alpink

still hoping DASH gets that chassis into production


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## Hornet

Jim,i'll take your challenge,if you figure you want to put a T-jet up against an inline,lol:thumbsup:
Not bragging but you'r gonna get whipped,lol

Rick


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## Gareth

Sir Slotsalot said:


> Please pass the syrup and the bacon. LOL!!!


Maple smoked bacon definitely! But bacon and maple syrup? Now that really doesn't make sense to me! 

As many others have said and as I tried to say earlier, different strokes for different folks!

Now if someone took the Fray Jets and added larger wheels and the LL-T body we saw earlier I think we'd have an attractive car with all the slide racing that is desired from the T-Jet, a good turn of speed and better looks....to my eye! Although would the bigger wheels make it less slidey? I don't know because I've not tried them! Add it to the never ending list of things to try!

That's what I love about slots. There is something for everyone.


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## NTxSlotCars

I cleaned the shoes and set the car on the track, put power to it but it wouldnt move. I rolled the back tires a bit and it started driving. It went for a couple laps, almost, then started to slow. I watched it roll to a stop and waited.... here it comes.... POOF!... there's the smoke.... and that smell everyone's so crazy about. Ah yes, the smell of burned pancakes. If I keep the trigger down will it catch fire? Yes, this brings back many memories of tjets in general. I don't know how the hobby got off the ground with these cars. Thank God for Tyco. =o)

My favorite chassis, by far, are the original AFX Magnatraction, and Tyco HP7.
They act more like real cars than any other, on any track.

The FRAYS are such a builders class, why not start another Brass War?


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## bemoore

AfxToo said:


> I don't get the "pancake OVER inline" assertion.


There are many more fans of Fray tjets than there are G-Jet type cars. So, the pancake cars are favored over inlines.



AfxToo said:


> If you're really talking about getting totally immersed into the HO slot car hobby you should really be talking about "pancake AND inline" because they are two different entrees on the menu that the total HO slot car hobby has to offer.


So, I have to embrace every aspect of HO slotcars to be a legitimate hobbiest? As I already mentioned, I have several tjets and AFXs. I run them occasionally for nostalgia, and they're a lot of fun, but I don't consider them suitable as hobby grade race cars.



AfxToo said:


> To me the pancake powered cars are wickedly appealing because they are ridiculously and overly complex Rube Goldberg contraptions that nobody in their right mind would see as "racing machines" yet we bend and morph the reality of these things to match OUR will and turn the little suckers into little speedsters nonetheless.


This is the part I don't get. Tjets make sense to me as a vintage car from the 60's. But when you mod it to within an inch of its life, it seems that it's no longer a tjet. It's a high end race car that's shaped like a tjet (well, except the body).



AfxToo said:


> I can't count the number of times I've seen a hot little TJet whipping around a track and not being totally amazed at what someone has been able to do to make the thing a real race car. To me that process captures and intrigues the same part of my brain that had me wrenching on 1:1 beaters back in the days of American Muscle Cars and trying to tweak a few tenths from persnickety old Detroit Iron.


OK. This may be the best explanation yet as to why someone would favor a highly modified tjet over an inline.


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## bemoore

alpink said:


> I guess my agenda is why do you keep on making insults to those that prefer something you don't prefer?


That is not my intention at all. If my comments came off as insults, I apologize. I'm just trying to gain some understanding.



alpink said:


> it appears to me, and this is purely my opinion and view, that you are intentionally trying to cause grief to those that do like their blob FRAY car bodies and chassis that are set up to handle almost like magnet cars but without magnets.


I am NOT trying to cause grief.



alpink said:


> I guess I don't really understand what you are asking?
> I thought some folks had, rather clearly, explained the attraction to specific types of handling characteristics.


Yes, but the typical claim is that they like tjets and dislike magnet cars. I never compared tjets to mag cars. I compared them to no mag inlines. Completely different.


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## slotking

> I get the nostalgia bit, and the smell. I love that smell, too. But the Fray cars just don't trigger the nostalgia. A Model T modified into a modern day Corvette doesn't have the nostalgia of a Model T anymore.


The fray car is a racers challenge, how fast can you get a slow car to go!
That is the 1 of the challenges I enjoy.

I still race inlines and they are fun! I just enjoy the learning of working on fray cars.

But if you really like the old cars, try to make a race at the greenbrier challenge!
Stock tires is the key: aurora, JL/AW, or new model motoring bodies.

That is some fun racing


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## Marty

slotking said:


> The fray car is a racers challenge, how fast can you get a slow car to go!


That is a builders challenge. A racers challenge is when all cars are equal, not matter how fast, and you have to prove your skills as a racer to win.

MOO

Marty


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## tjetsgrig

Hornet said:


> Jim,i'll take your challenge,if you figure you want to put a T-jet up against an inline,lol:thumbsup:
> Not bragging but you'r gonna get whipped,lol
> 
> Rick


Ok!! When's it goin' down??


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## joegri

i just love that video!! as a wanna be builder that is the gold standard to set yer sights to achieve. nicely done tjetsgriggs!!!


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## Boosted-Z71

I agree that would be an awesome race and worthy of a Road Trip.

Boosted


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## partspig

bemoore said:


> I think I must be missing something. I don't understand the appeal of pancake cars over inlines for organized racing.
> 
> So... given the current state of what's available... and what tjet racing has become... what's the appeal of pancake cars over inline for organized racing? What am I missing?


bemoore, ......JMHO, Is that the answer is a lot simpler than anyone has said so far. I am nearly 60 years old now. My first slot car was a 1/24th Cox kit. A very expensive car to run back then, not everyone had a track in their basement! Then one christmas I got an Aurora vibe set. The Thunderjets followed shortly after, along with other kids in the neighborhood getting sets. There were many tracks in basements, garages, etc. The main reason that they are so near and dear to my heart is that they are the first cars that I really raced competitively with my buddies! Just think back to your first bike or car or dog, or even the first home you bought, some fond memories, I am sure. Those things are all burned into my memories. They are fond memories, especially all the hours of fun we had at the slot car tracks back then with ,...... Aurora's pancake powered Thunderjets. AND those Thunderjet slot cars, were the cat's meow back then! There was no other manufacturer even close performance wise. And you can almost single handedly thank Oscar Kovaleski for the HO race scene that has evolved to this day! With all of those great hop up parts he used to sell in the Auto World catalog. Now this is all purely conjecture and 100% of an old fart's opinion, but I will be sticking to it! I was there, I lived it! It was great fun! Don't get me wrong here, magnet cars are great too! But there is not another chassis type that drives like a pancake powered car. They drive nearly like real 1:1 cars! :thumbsup: pig


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## ajd350

+1 Pig. I think you nailed it. We grew up thrashing on pancakes and the very best of my efforts, which I still have, will get it's butt kicked by any of my skinny-tired cars. I still marvel at that. Inlines may be very fine cars, but like quality BMX bikes, that's not what I grew up adoring. My cars are fast and reliable and I do NOT spend a ton of money building them. To my eye, the Fray bodies are not my cup of tea in general. Clearly designed to fit a profile, most tend to resemble little more than a generic blob with just enough details to assign a name to them. Fine if you like that sort of thing. Seems to be more of a challenge to try and get an existing production body to full potential without losing it's identity. Modern magnet cars? I tried racing them in the 90's and just couldn't fall in love with them. No beef with 'em, just not my personal choice.


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## neorules

Impressive run with the t-jet drag car. 60 mph is pretty good, although you should know the inline record is about 115 mph. I'm with Hornet on this one---- inline vs pancake under same open rules for each type = you lose.
Gareth brought up a very good point about track size influencing car type.
Run whatever floats your boat.


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## Hornet

Jim:you still gotta make a corner at the end of that straight
How's your T-jet do then,lol:thumbsup:
I think Bemoore was talking about a road coarse,on a road coarse,there's no T-jet in the world that's gonna stay with a full blown Neo magnet car.
You can stuff all the Neo mag you want into a T-jets motor box,but it's still only got 2 magnets,and it won't hang with a mag car in the corners.Not only that,it's mag set-up doesn't cover as much rail as the average inlines mag set-up does,even if you take the traction mags out of an inline mag car
Straight ahead on a dragstrip,you got a standing chance,but that's not what the orginal post is about
What's the T-jet record these days on a dragstrip:wave:
Rick


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## Grandcheapskate

AfxToo said:


> To me the pancake powered cars are wickedly appealing because they are ridiculously and overly complex Rube Goldberg contraptions that nobody in their right mind would see as "racing machines" yet we bend and morph the reality of these things to match OUR will and turn the little suckers into little speedsters nonetheless.


 In addition to the obvious attachment to pancake cars as the cars of our youth, the above statement is what I find appealing about the pancakes. They are over-engineered with too many moving parts and therefore open the possibility for so many areas of tuning. I think I enjoy getting cars to run well more than I enjoy running them.

I can work on a pancake chassis. I have disassembled/assembled maybe one or two inline chassis in my life and it's not something I want to do again. I'm sure it's not hard once you get the hang of it, but they already run well enough for me right out of the box. A badly tuned T-Jet barely runs while a poorly tuned inline still runs pretty good.

Now, were you to take out the traction magnets and make the armature less "hot" so inline ran like a pancake, would inline be more appealing to pancake lovers? Maybe as a runner. But I still think there is a great love of working on pancake style chassis - because they are so overly, unnecessarily complicated.

Thanks...Joe


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## Sir Slotsalot

I've raced every scale from Vib-Jets to 1:24 for the last 50 years. Each scale and car has its qualities and quirks. What's not to love about any of it? It's like spending a day at a 1:1 museum only "miniature". Embrace it all. Learn from it all. Try something different once in a while. Life is short, BELIEVE ME, I know! Don't waste time arguing about what you don't like, focus on what makes you happy and respect each others happiness while you're here on earth.


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## alpink

what sir slot said!


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## bemoore

Hornet said:


> I think Bemoore was talking about a road coarse,on a road coarse,there's no T-jet in the world that's gonna stay with a full blown Neo magnet car.


It's true that I was referring to road courses, but I wasn't comparing tjets to magnet cars. I was comparing them to no-mag inlines, like the G-Jet type cars.

For those who like the speed & handling of a Fray tjet, it would seem that a G-Jet type car would provide the same driving experience for much less money and MUCH less effort. I like tjets and AFXs, but I'm more of a driver than a builder. I guess that's the difference. Most of the tjet diehards are builders. If I want a certain amount of power and handling, I'll go about finding the cheapest and easiest way to get it. I'm not interested in taking the most challenging path to get there. Tjets and AFXs are nostalgic to me, too. But a Fray tjet, to me, is something completely different than the tjets & AFXs I ran all those decades ago.

There also seems to be a perception that inline = mag car, and tjet = no mag. With the Fray tjets and the G-Jet type cars, that distinction is gone. Those two cars inhabit the same performance and handling space, and one of them is much cheaper, simpler, easier to work on, etc. But the other one is the more popular one.


----------



## bemoore

Grandcheapskate said:


> I can work on a pancake chassis. I have disassembled/assembled maybe one or two inline chassis in my life and it's not something I want to do again. I'm sure it's not hard once you get the hang of it,


Yep. That's the case. Once you get used to them, they're no harder to disassemble than a tjet.



Grandcheapskate said:


> Now, were you to take out the traction magnets and make the armature less "hot" so inline ran like a pancake, would inline be more appealing to pancake lovers?


Like, say, a G-Jet, which has a 9 ohm arm & is intended to run at 12 volts? Apparently, the answer is no.



Grandcheapskate said:


> Maybe as a runner. But I still think there is a great love of working on pancake style chassis - because they are so overly, unnecessarily complicated.


That must be the appeal. I prefer simplicity over complexity.


----------



## alpink

does the vaunted G-Jet have brass weights where the magnets were removed?


----------



## bemoore

alpink said:


> does the vaunted G-Jet have brass weights where the magnets were removed?


Those type cars have brass weights front & rear. I think that all the designs are modified versions of mag chassis. They've been modified to accept weights. I think that other mods were done, too, for the pickup shoes, but I'm not sure about that.


----------



## tjetsgrig

neorules said:


> Impressive run with the t-jet drag car. 60 mph is pretty good, although you should know the inline record is about 115 mph. I'm with Hornet on this one---- inline vs pancake under same open rules for each type = you lose.
> Gareth brought up a very good point about track size influencing car type.
> Run whatever floats your boat.


Yeah....that's at 30 volts with a 0.2 ohm motor. That tjet run was with only a 2 laminate 0.8 ohm motor on 24 volts. I'll go against an inline with a 0.8-1.0 ohm motor at 24 volts and hold my own.....I've done it before.

JS


----------



## tjetsgrig

Hornet said:


> Jim:you still gotta make a corner at the end of that straight
> How's your T-jet do then,lol:thumbsup:
> I think Bemoore was talking about a road coarse,on a road coarse,there's no T-jet in the world that's gonna stay with a full blown Neo magnet car.
> You can stuff all the Neo mag you want into a T-jets motor box,but it's still only got 2 magnets,and it won't hang with a mag car in the corners.Not only that,it's mag set-up doesn't cover as much rail as the average inlines mag set-up does,even if you take the traction mags out of an inline mag car
> Straight ahead on a dragstrip,you got a standing chance,but that's not what the orginal post is about
> What's the T-jet record these days on a dragstrip:wave:
> Rick


Just breakin' 'em Rick! :thumbsup:

I've made a 0.299 et @ 80.05 mph pass. To my knowledge, no one else has gone that fast yet.

JS


----------



## ParkRNDL

I'm gonna weigh in here, though it probably doesn't count for much since I'm not currently involved in organized racing and I believe that's what the OP is asking about...

I've always thought Gjets sounded interesting and wanted to try one, but I currently have a 4x16 4-lane layout running one old Aurora DC-2 power pack per lane. I have a stable of a few hundred cars ranging from Vibes to Super G's and everything in between. Right now I can grab any car off any shelf or from any case I have, drop it on a lane, flip the switch on that ol' DC-2 and I'm racing. (OK, with the exception of the Vibes which like AC, but I digress.) As interesting as Gjets sound, I'm having a hard time buying a car (or two or ten) that I'll have to reconfigure my track to run. Sure, switching over a couple wires to hook up a 12v supply isn't all that big a deal, but what's the point if I already have lots of cars that run on my track the way it is? A good bit of my hobby time is a few minutes stolen here and there when I can sneak off to the dungeon between running one kid to cheerleading practice and picking another up from basketball practice. I want to spend those precious minutes running laps, not changing power supplies...

I'll probably still try them eventually, but I'd be a lot more likely to try that type of car if the car was all I had to buy and it didn't require diddling with power supplies. 

just my $.02

--rick


----------



## Hornet

Rick the Slottech and Wizzard versions of the brass cars,use normal style Tyco arms,and can be run on 18volts no problem.
As a confirmed magnet guy,i'm having a ball with my ThunderStorms,which 6 month's ago,i'd told you would never happen,but sum-bitch they can be fun:thumbsup:

Jim,i thought somebody had put a T-jet up around the 100mph mark a few years back,but i'm not sure,you're 80 MPH is impressive though,gotta admit that.
I know Rocky when he was alive,had the mag cars well over a 100 mph,and i thought he was using only (2) 12volt batteries,which would'va gave him around 26 volts on full charge,and a 32 wind drag arm from Bobby,which i haven't got a clue of what it ohm's at,but i know it'd be well under 1ohm,but whether it'd be down at .2 ohms,i'm not sure.

I'm only tugging on your chain,Jim,lol:thumbsup:
Those are impressive missiles you build:thumbsup:
Rick


----------



## Hornet

Rick,if you buy a Wizzard Storm Extreme and a weight kit,you've got 2 cars in one,run the traction mags when you want a mag car,and then swap out the traction mags for the weights and you've got a Jet style car.
You can do the same with Slottech's car.:thumbsup:
The G-jet from BSRT requires an arm swap plus traction magnets to make it a true dual purpose car, if you want to run the cars at 18 volts or more
Rick


----------



## Hornet

Jim you're MPH numbers got me thinking.
Have you ever figured out the RPM one of your arms are turning through the top-end.
I know there's formula's for figuring out a T-jets final drive ratio,if you get the final drive ratio and tire size,plug the numbers through the formula i posted awhile back.
I'm thinking your hitting some pretty impressive revs on the top-end
Rick


----------



## ParkRNDL

Hmmm. I had no idea there were G-Jet type cars that ran on "standard" HO scale voltages. Ya learn something new every day, I guess. :thumbsup: But are the speeds then as high as your typical 440/Tomy Turbo/other contemporary mag car, just with weights instead of magnets?

--rick


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## bemoore

ParkRNDL said:


> Hmmm. I had no idea there were G-Jet type cars that ran on "standard" HO scale voltages. Ya learn something new every day, I guess. :thumbsup: But are the speeds then as high as your typical 440/Tomy Turbo/other contemporary mag car, just with weights instead of magnets?
> 
> --rick


No. Your standard contemporary mag car has a 6 ohm arm and runs on 18 volts. A G-Jet has a 9 ohm arm and runs on 12 volts. A tjet has a 16 ohm arm, and runs on 18 to 20 volts.


----------



## partspig

bemoore said:


> No. Your standard contemporary mag car has a 6 ohm arm and runs on 18 volts. A G-Jet has a 9 ohm arm and runs on 12 volts. A tjet has a 16 ohm arm, and runs on 18 to 20 volts.


Just quantify and correct some misinformation that seems to spread all by itself. A t-jet will run on 9 volts and as high as you want to push it! Back in the day, we used old 12V or two 6V car batteries to power our tracks. Why?? The Aurora power packs sucked. pig.


----------



## Dyno Dom

Traditionally, model trains & slot cars have run on low voltage.
The complexity of the T-Jet brought the standard of 18 volts to HO slots.
IMHO, a well detailed hard body G-Jet at 9 ohm arm & 12 volts will sustain
a crash impact better than an inline or T-Jet running 18 or more volts.


----------



## ajd350

Those power packs sure do suck. I have dozens and there can be a considerable variation in voltage. I used to run seven wired in parallel to up the amps but keep the voltage even.


----------



## Hornet

Rick here's Wizzards version of a Jet style car. 

Stock Thunder Storm Cars

Stock # Description Qty
Price

WTS01
Thunder Storm cars - A brilliant combination of components to come up with a "non-magnet" version of the Storm car, including vibration dampening weights and new tires. Far from being simply a magnet car with the traction magnets removed, it's an entirely new concept in many ways.
1 Each
$59.95 
Please Specify Color: Blue, Green, Orange, Red, White, Yellow 



BSRT has coined the phrase G-jet for their car,and by the looks of it,i guess you better be letter correct or you're gonna get stepped on,Wizzard calls their version ThunderStorm.

Not sure what Tony call's his Slottech version,but yea all three of the aftermarket inline manufacture'rs offer a brass weighted version of their mag cars.
If you're looking at real cheap JW's sells weight kits for the venerable old Tyco too

If you're looking at Wizzards version you're better off buying an Extreme Storm and the weight kit,through somebody like Lucky Bob. 

LMAO,sure lots of controversary again

http://www.wizzardho.com/Main.htm

Lucky Bob's site,if you haven't found it

http://www.lucky-bobs-slot-cars.com/wizzard-storm.html

JW's site,halfway down the page is their "Pro Tyco" weight kits,and weighted front ends

http://jwhospeedparts.com/mprod.htm


----------



## tjetsgrig

Hornet said:


> Rick the Slottech and Wizzard versions of the brass cars,use normal style Tyco arms,and can be run on 18volts no problem.
> As a confirmed magnet guy,i'm having a ball with my ThunderStorms,which 6 month's ago,i'd told you would never happen,but sum-bitch they can be fun:thumbsup:
> 
> Jim,i thought somebody had put a T-jet up around the 100mph mark a few years back,but i'm not sure,you're 80 MPH is impressive though,gotta admit that.
> I know Rocky when he was alive,had the mag cars well over a 100 mph,and i thought he was using only (2) 12volt batteries,which would'va gave him around 26 volts on full charge,and a 32 wind drag arm from Bobby,which i haven't got a clue of what it ohm's at,but i know it'd be well under 1ohm,but whether it'd be down at .2 ohms,i'm not sure.
> 
> I'm only tugging on your chain,Jim,lol:thumbsup:
> Those are impressive missiles you build:thumbsup:
> Rick


Hey Rick!
I know man! That's why we're here....to have fun......right?? Too much goin' on in a Tjet drivetrain to hit 100 mark! The 0.299 @ 80.05 has proved to be very illusive! I've hit 0.301's 02's @ 76-78mph, but have never been able to duplicate that one "perfect" run! There's no way a tjet will EVER hit the 100mph barrier!!

JS


----------



## Bill Hall

*Never say never*



tjetsgrig said:


> ..... There's no way a tjet will EVER hit the 100mph barrier!!
> 
> JS


Awwww Jim...your just not trying! 

Every t-jet has 100 mph potential :thumbsup:

Squoosh one up in the vise... :freak:

load it into a 12 guage shell.  

Yer just underpowered...er....um...underpowdered! :tongue:


----------



## ParkRNDL

tjetsgrig said:


> (snip)
> 
> There's no way a tjet will EVER hit the 100mph barrier!!
> 
> JS


hahaha when i read this line it reminded me of a funny story/urban legend...

http://www.the-clearing.org/Jato/index.html

maybe someone needs to strap a model rocket engine to a Tjet with a JL '59 Impala body on it... :tongue:

--rick


----------



## Boosted-Z71

If I am not mistaken a Jato has a strong resemblance to an In-line. Is this just a coincidence? 

Boosted


----------



## SpiderRPM

NTxSlotCars said:


> I cleaned the shoes and set the car on the track, put power to it but it wouldnt move. I rolled the back tires a bit and it started driving. It went for a couple laps, almost, then started to slow. I watched it roll to a stop and waited.... here it comes.... POOF!... there's the smoke.... and that smell everyone's so crazy about. Ah yes, the smell of burned pancakes. If I keep the trigger down will it catch fire? Yes, this brings back many memories of tjets in general. I don't know how the hobby got off the ground with these cars. Thank God for Tyco. =o)
> 
> My favorite chassis, by far, are the original AFX Magnatraction, and Tyco HP7.
> They act more like real cars than any other, on any track.
> 
> The FRAYS are such a builders class, why not start another Brass War?


When I dug out all my old slots, there were two that I bought at Toys R Us in the early to mid 80's that were never used. A 440-X2 widebody and a HP-7. I just took the HP-7 apart the other night and oiled everything up. Cleaned the corrosion off the pickups...and WOW. I forgot about the torque these suckers had. When you're entering a corner and give it some juice, they do, in fact, respond like real cars. Sooo much fun.


----------



## slotking

> maybe someone needs to strap a model rocket engine to a Tjet


Already done by John peckham of the Greenbrier Challenge!
Why 

Just see the monster trucks and other stuff he makes


----------



## slotking

> A racers challenge is when all cars are equal


here i disagree
why

because people have different driving styles!
break vs no break
Float the car or slam it
more slide vs less slide
more torque vs more top end

it all favors 1 person vs another!

Thats why a good racer will build or have built a car that fits their driving style as well as the controller! 1 guy may want a 25ohm and the other a 35ohm controller!


----------



## AfxToo

> So, I have to embrace every aspect of HO slotcars to be a legitimate hobbiest? As I already mentioned, I have several tjets and AFXs. I run them occasionally for nostalgia, and they're a lot of fun, but I don't consider them suitable as hobby grade race cars.


No, not at all. It's not an all or nothing game, it's all about choice and personal preference. You don't have to choose one over the other, which is what I interpret as the point of your question, i.e., why would someone choose to run TJets when inlines exist and are in your opinion a superior alternative? My answer is you don't have to choose ... to which I add each one has its own unique appeal for a multitude of different and sometimes very personal reasons. 

The whole point of this hobby community is to bring people together around a shared interest. When we're hobby talking around the shared interest that is the HO slot car hobby we are being inclusive of everything that's on the menu from Vibes and TJets to neo mag MegaGs and all forms of consumption from casual collecting to hard core racing. I do think it would be very interesting to reach out to fellow enthusiasts who are doing something different within the HO slot car hobby (or any other multifaceted hobby) to get some insight into what they find appealing about the part of the hobby they are focused on and learn why they find it so appealing. I think that would be engaging. 

On the other hand, if you carve out a certain aspect of the hobby and erect a fence around it and start asking folks on the "other side" of your self imposed fence why the heck they are on their side, what's the appeal, and why they are not within your fenced-in boundaries, well I think that would be disengaging. 

Sometimes it's as much about how you ask the question as it is about question itself. I will assume that this is the case here and that the responses are insightful and give everyone an opportunity to express the reasons for their preferences, exclusive or otherwise, for TJets over inlines. However, I don't think you'll find a clear and quantifiable answer that has a basis in technology or efficiency or performance potential. It's like asking someone why they like chocolate over strawberries, or even why they like chocolate in the first place. 

We like TJets because we do.


----------



## alpink

AFXToo, well put and what I wish I had said!


----------



## bemoore

AfxToo said:


> No, not at all. It's not an all or nothing game, it's all about choice and personal preference. You don't have to choose one over the other,


Unless, say, you're racing in a club, and you have no choice in what class is being run. Yes, I could just not race, but despite my preference for more suitable (IMO) chassis, I still prefer to race vs not racing.



AfxToo said:


> which is what I interpret as the point of your question, i.e., why would someone choose to run TJets when inlines exist and are in your opinion a superior alternative?


Your depiction of my opinion is too general. I still like tjets. But their appeal to me is; nostalgia, cool 60's era muscle car bodies, realistic fishtailing action at more realistic speeds. The Fray tjets don't have any of these aspects.



AfxToo said:


> My answer is you don't have to choose ... to which I add each one has its own unique appeal for a multitude of different and sometimes very personal reasons.


If racing in a club, you DO have to choose.



AfxToo said:


> The whole point of this hobby community is to bring people together around a shared interest. When we're hobby talking around the shared interest that is the HO slot car hobby we are being inclusive of everything that's on the menu from Vibes and TJets to neo mag MegaGs and all forms of consumption from casual collecting to hard core racing. I do think it would be very interesting to reach out to fellow enthusiasts who are doing something different within the HO slot car hobby (or any other multifaceted hobby) to get some insight into what they find appealing about the part of the hobby they are focused on and learn why they find it so appealing. I think that would be engaging.
> 
> On the other hand, if you carve out a certain aspect of the hobby and erect a fence around it and start asking folks on the "other side" of your self imposed fence why the heck they are on their side, what's the appeal, and why they are not within your fenced-in boundaries, well I think that would be disengaging.


Which is why I haven't taken this discussion to the club. I figured (and it appears I was right) that this discussion would generate a lot of defensiveness. I prefer to not instigate ill feelings, However, if I tick off you guys... I don't have to race with you.



AfxToo said:


> Sometimes it's as much about how you ask the question as it is about question itself. I will assume that this is the case here and that the responses are insightful and give everyone an opportunity to express the reasons for their preferences, exclusive or otherwise, for TJets over inlines. However, I don't think you'll find a clear and quantifiable answer that has a basis in technology or efficiency or performance potential.


You're right. The only answers so far that make sense are, emotion, and the appeal of the challenge of building. I agree with the reason of emotion, but since I'm not much of a builder, the challenge of building a fast car holds no appeal to me.

Now, I don't mind tweaking a car. Adjusting this or that, etc. Pickup shoes, tires, brush springs, etc. But having to sort parts, and selecting the best out of 50 to 100 cars to build a single car... holds no appeal to me.


----------



## alpink

someone is overcomplicating the process to build a fast t-jet.
I never wear out parts as was depicted in one of, if not, the first post.
and if the only type car being raced is a FRAY, then you race or watch.
and I am really wondering who has actually become defensive?


----------



## ajd350

Bemoore, I race with a group that runs narrow T-jets, Wide T-Jets, Magna Tractions and Box stock modern magnet cars. On a race night, we run the T-Jets first. Those who don't run the MagTracs leave. Those of us who don't run the newer cars leave after the MagTracs. Not a problem. 

In the T-Jet classes, my cars are competitve with the best in our group, and there are some very good builders. Yes, some time is spent, but I did not go through 1000 cars to get them that way. Maybe low double digits total to build 15 cars. I really think that that number is exaggerated. Once set up and dialed in, they need little more than regular cleaning, oil and the replacing the occasional worn part. Learning is a huge part. Not everyone enjoys fiddling and tweaking. We are all different.

If it doesn't fit your idea of fun, you need to sell the idea to your racing group. Trying to get a handle on the points of view on here is not a bad idea, but we're not the guys you need to convince. The opinions here ought to let you see what you are up against. When our guys asked me to run modern cars, I did not get defensive. The answer was that I had no interest......period. If they decided to drop the T-Jets, I would likely look for a group that ran them or see about starting one. 

Someone has to make a choice. You or them. Remember, it's a hobby.


----------



## NTxSlotCars

I think we all know where this is headed....


----------



## tasman

After reading through 5 pages of this thread it is clear to me that nothing can be said that will change bemoore's mind or cause him to understand.

Which to me raises the question of why post the question in the first place?


----------



## bemoore

tasman said:


> After reading through 5 pages of this thread it is clear to me that nothing can be said that will change bemoore's mind or cause him to understand.
> 
> Which to me raises the question of why post the question in the first place?


I posed a question about why people like Fray tjets over no-mag inline cars. I got answers about why people prefer stock tjets over magnet cars. People keep answering questions I didn't ask.

Like most of you, I actually DO like tjets and AFX's. I just don't see the point of Fray tjets, and somehow I'm the uncivilized, uncultured, neanderthal who will "just never understand". But I do understand now how many just enjoy the challenge of building something fast out of something slow. Not my cup of tea, but I understand it better now.

"After 5 pages of this thread it is clear to me that nothing can be said that will change everyone else's mind or cause everyone else to understand."

An assertion that's equally valid as yours. Except, I wasn't trying to change anybody's mind, and I wasn't asking anyone to change my mind. I'm perfectly fine with my preferences.


----------



## LDThomas

bemoore said:


> I think I must be missing something. I don't understand the appeal of pancake cars over inlines for organized racing.


Hmmm... This sure reads like the original question was the basic pancake over inlines rather than the back-tracking FRAY T-Jets over non-mag inlines. :dude:

Yes, just pulling chains. :wave:


----------



## partspig

bemoore said:


> I think I must be missing something. I don't understand the appeal of pancake cars over inlines for organized racing.
> 
> So... given the current state of what's available... and what tjet racing has become... what's the appeal of pancake cars over inline for organized racing? What am I missing?


For all those that missed it in the very first post. there is the question! pig


----------



## bemoore

partspig said:


> For all those that missed it in the very first post. there is the question! pig


Yes, but if you read the entire first post, you'll see that the inlines I was referring to were the no-mag types like the G-Jet, P-jet, etc.


----------



## bemoore

LDThomas said:


> Hmmm... This sure reads like the original question was the basic pancake over inlines rather than the back-tracking FRAY T-Jets over non-mag inlines. :dude:
> 
> Yes, just pulling chains. :wave:


Hey, you're right. It does read like that... if you take it out of context, and ignore most of the original post.

I can pull chains, too.:wave:


----------



## LDThomas

By definition, it is impossible to take something out of context if you take the entire paragraph, which I did.

Want to pull my finger?


----------



## neorules

Ho Racing today = Tower of Babel


----------



## Bill Hall

*If you cant, wont, or dont wanna tuna fish*

T-jet vs inline? 

It's about tinkering with monkey motion and conquering the infinite pitfalls. Some guys like it. Some cant see it for it's ineficiencies and shortcomings. From the other side of the looking glass some may see the evolutionary refinement and logical economy of a design with less marbles and fidgeting. 

If there's any one thing I'm sure of, it's the premise that trying to rationalize anything about grown men playing with little toy cars; let alone trying to compartmentalize the governing philosophies, always seems destined to have the smoke let out of the windings by page 2.

Nonmag inlines arent a novelty! They were the roast beef of the golden age; just not in HO scale. Retro HO nonmag inlines are simply a spin off from modern antigravity units, they owe their existence to the quirkyness and irregularities of the pancake designs that many people arent able to overcome or choose not to. 

The retro nonmag inline provides the nostalgic tail out experience with longer service intervals and greater reliablilty. Most certainly this would appeal to those who can tuna t-jet; or if they can, lack the desire/time to have your head under the proverbial hood every weekend to remain competetive.


----------



## SpiderRPM

NTxSlotCars said:


> I think we all know where this is headed....


I thought my old Tycos would be a joke when getting back into slots...
I didn't really know what to expect. But they are my favorite cars still..
UNBELIEVABLE that after a tune-up, all my 440-X2s and HP-7s run like 
new. 

I did get a lot of history / gap filling out of this thread. So it was 
educational for me in a warped way. Hah.


----------



## Dyno Dom

Bill, well said. :thumbsup:
For whatever reason, to each his own preference, we are all to enjoy the 
many facets of HO slots!!


----------



## ggnagy

Whats the appeal of racing cars with carburettors and olid axles over fuel injection and IRS?


----------



## gomanvongo

No chassis preference here - I just like my little cars to look a lot like big cars, and I find the FRAY body style regulations/setup prevent that.

other than that, as long as it goes when I squeeze the trigger (and even if they don't!), I loves 'em all! 

If there were a league here in Nova Scotia, and all they ran was FRAYs, I'd certainly get one, just so's I could go and play too - It's just like when I was a kid - we all had the WWF wrestlers - i never played with them much at home alone, they just sat there, but we'd have big wrestling matches at my buddys house - sometimes it's just more fun to play with others, even if you don't like their toys as much as the ones at home!


----------



## Bill Hall

*Careful what you wish for*



gomanvongo said:


> No chassis preference here - I just like my little cars to look a lot like big cars, and I find the FRAY body style regulations/setup prevent that.
> 
> other than that, as long as it goes when I squeeze the trigger (and even if they don't!), I loves 'em all!
> 
> If there were a league here in Nova Scotia, and all they ran was FRAYs, I'd certainly get one, just so's I could go and play too - It's just like when I was a kid - we all had the WWF wrestlers - i never played with them much at home alone, they just sat there, but we'd have big wrestling matches at my buddys house - sometimes it's just more fun to play with others, even if you don't like their toys as much as the ones at home!


ah HA! 

Personal adjustments made to accomodate the preferences of a social group...?

Excellent analogy Vongo! Your bulls eye shot made me chuckle my coffee this morning. To be true, we have to admit that there's more to it than mere mechanical comparisons. 

Differences is what makes hoss racin' !

To me, Fray is the slotcar equivalent of NASCAR. Template vehicles bearing little resemblence to their ancestry, all mandated by a governing body implementing a manipulative cascading ruleset since the inception of the original class. Legislated by humans trying to control other humans, is there any wonder that it's completly inbred, twisted and bears no resemblence to the original template? Given enough time, under the right conditions, I'm absolutely certain that "slot-humanity" can also inbreed retro nonmag inlines into another excellent mutant racing class. 

Manipulation of the original genetics is a foregone conclusion; because there are those always seeking and finding an edge with tools. Conversly there are those tools who seek an edge, but find it easier to blunt someone else's edge with the pen. That said, I dont think it really matters if the breed is genetically altered by innovators with screwdrivers or legislators with pens. In fact it appears that both are required so that they offset one another. Racing diversity is engineered by man, his abilities; as well as his preferences. The fact that scale racing is just as pervertedly diverse as 1:1 racing, only serves to support the assertion that the human factor is the common denominator.

Bemoore, I believe whole heartedly that the out of the can, tail sliding, nonmag inline will have all the, economy, freedom, and fun sucked out of it soon enough. They just havent had enough generations to mutate it....yet.


----------



## bearsox

*Short and sweet .... the reason i like pancakes is the syrup ! 

Bear :thumbsup:
*


----------



## Omega

bearsox said:


> *Short and sweet .... the reason i like pancakes is the syrup ! *
> 
> *Bear :thumbsup:*


and the smell when they are nice and warm.


----------



## ajd350

mmmmmmm......pancaaaaaakes.


----------



## 1976Cordoba

I think we all know where this is headed....


----------



## tjetsgrig

I'm takin' Bill's advice and loadin' sumptin' into a 12ga.!! Unfortunately, I don't think my timing system will pick it up!!


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## NTxSlotCars

1976cordoba said:


> i think we all know where this is headed....


lmao!!!!


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## AfxToo

> To me, Fray is the slotcar equivalent of NASCAR. Template vehicles bearing little resemblence to their ancestry, all mandated by a governing body implementing a manipulative cascading ruleset since the inception of the original class. Legislated by humans trying to control other humans, is there any wonder that it's completly inbred, twisted and bears no resemblence to the original template? Given enough time, under the right conditions, I'm absolutely certain that "slot-humanity" can also inbreed retro nonmag inlines into another excellent mutant racing class.


Why pick on specific racing groups who have chosen to run a particular racing series using a specific Fomula of their choosing? Racers who WANT to voluntarily join in on The Fray or magnet car racing know very well that they must follow the formula and rules. If they want to join in they can. If not, they can stand on the sidelines and watch, or they can create their own formula, drum up support, build interest, deal with the logistics, deal with rules enforcement, deal with setting dates and times and getting a venue, deal with many things unexpected, deal with the naysayers, and deal with doing everything they can to try and make sure everyone who shows up has the opportunity to have a good time and and an enjoyable experience. 

I've grown tired of the negativity that seems to follow too many of these attempts to get things done and do things positive for the people who enjoy the social and competitive aspects of slot car racing. Due to the highly discretionary nature of the hobby and expense in time and money there are always many more reasons for not joining in or not showing up or for simply staying on the sidelines and living life as a spectator sport. Then there are the few people and groups who try and make things happen and create something, those who avoid the easy path and just get things done despite the many obstacles. I give the latter group my support even if I disagree with their formula.

Whether you like it or not, the people who get things done get to make the rules. It's both their prerogative and their responsibility. Whether you join in, support them, or criticize them is your perogative. If you don't like their formula, it's completely within your power to conceive, grow, and nurture your own formula. Lead, follow, or get out of the way.


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## partspig

1976Cordoba said:


> I think we all know where this is headed....


So what's so negative about pancakes anyways?? pig


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## 2.8powerranger

I think the attraction for myself as is with many others,,Im 47 yrs old,so These are what I grew up with,T-jet ,afx,and magna-tractions,They are what I remember getting for Christmas,They are what I remember me and my buddies playing with at overnights and at scouts.I had some g-plus cars,,nice fast cars but just not the same nostalgia.The old pancakes are what our older brothers played with and gave us when they were done with them.Most of you guys that grew up mainly in the 80's probably remember the inlines the same way .Although i do really like the old tycos with their can motors.Fray cars are cool,,I dont like most of the body styles as they look like an insect in my opinion.But the motor and history and nostalgia behind them are what i like. They arent the fastest but they are a hoot to see something of 60s tech still being improved upon,and still maintaining the a chassis made in an era that so many of us had the joy of growing up in.


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## Bill Hall

*Yer MO is dated*



AfxToo said:


> Why pick on specific racing groups who have chosen to run a particular racing series using a specific Fomula of their choosing? Racers who WANT to voluntarily join in on The Fray or magnet car racing know very well that they must follow the formula and rules. If they want to join in they can. If not, they can stand on the sidelines and watch, or they can create their own formula, drum up support, build interest, deal with the logistics, deal with rules enforcement, deal with setting dates and times and getting a venue, deal with many things unexpected, deal with the naysayers, and deal with doing everything they can to try and make sure everyone who shows up has the opportunity to have a good time and and an enjoyable experience.
> 
> I've grown tired of the negativity that seems to follow too many of these attempts to get things done and do things positive for the people who enjoy the social and competitive aspects of slot car racing. Due to the highly discretionary nature of the hobby and expense in time and money there are always many more reasons for not joining in or not showing up or for simply staying on the sidelines and living life as a spectator sport. Then there are the few people and groups who try and make things happen and create something, those who avoid the easy path and just get things done despite the many obstacles. I give the latter group my support even if I disagree with their formula.
> 
> Whether you like it or not, the people who get things done get to make the rules. It's both their prerogative and their responsibility. Whether you join in, support them, or criticize them is your perogative. If you don't like their formula, it's completely within your power to conceive, grow, and nurture your own formula. Lead, follow, or get out of the way.


I didnt directly impugn anyones effort's or credibility. 

You bet I used the FRAY/NASCAR comparison to illustrate the idea that all forms of racing are inbred and kooky by the hand of man; because it's a good comparison! duh. ESPECIALLY if you step back a few feet and look for paw prints.

Additionally it also irritates the nose to glass context snippers who get highcentered and fixate on brandname or loyalty and never absorb the entirty of the context. 

["...Lead, follow, or get out of the way..."] Really? That's a wearyingly NEGATIVE suggestion; hypocritical, but enitrely inkeeping with your traditional condescending school marm tone typically guarded in new age touchy feely. 

I'm very disappointed that you went personal, but still havent done the honorable thing by enabling your PM and Email. 

Bok bok bok


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## Boosted-Z71

After this thread I think we all need to hold hands and Post "kumbaya" 

Boosted


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## Hornet

Anybody watch the evening news lately,and how we're all doomed to extinction anyways,might be a moot point tomorrow:wave::wave:


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## NTxSlotCars

Don't throw rocks at the messenger, but Russ the Hutt has a message...


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## Gerome

Bill Hall said:


> T-jet vs inline?
> 
> It's about tinkering with monkey motion and conquering the infinite pitfalls. Some guys like it.


Count me as one of those guys that like it.

But I run at 15 volts too because it's more fun.


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## AfxToo

> You bet I used the FRAY/NASCAR comparison to illustrate the idea that all forms of racing are inbred and kooky by the hand of man ...... I'm very disappointed that you went personal, but still havent done the honorable thing by enabling your PM and Email.


Bill, I was addressing what I interpreted as negative sentiment, not you personally. I understand that everyone has their own vision of what's cool versus what's goofy. Racing at any scale is unique in the variation of different formulas used to create the field of competition. Compare 1:1 super modified to late model sportman and it's apparent that the formula for these two classes is hugely different. The same thing applies to Fray class versus classic/vintage class for TJets or hardbody pro-stock versus lexan super-stock. Different classes and different formulas that stand on their own - which is really what my take on this whole thread has been about from the point that I started contributing. 

I do want to promote the concept of people who do put forth the effort to try to lead something, whether it's a racing group or a modeling discipline like you Bill have brought to the HobbyTalk board, or anything else that contributes, to get the credit and respect they deserve based on their leadership and contribution, whether or not the thing they are leading is any particular person's cup of tea. So yes Bill, I do think that you are a leader and a contributor and a member of the "doers" community because you demonstrate it here on many levels. If you think that my throwing the caution flag about the side-liners and arm chair quarterbacks was a personal affront then please accept my apology. Maybe I'm overly sensitive about those kind of things because I've seen too many colleagues in the hobby simply give up because they don't get support or encouragement for their efforts. 

About the PM and Email, I didn't realize that I still had it turned off. But now I know why my Private Messages Unread number is stuck at zero. I will fix it.


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## torredcuda

I started out with a small t-jet set when I was a kid and expanded from there.When the A/FX cars came out I thought they were awesome as they handled great and were fast.I also had plenty of magnatraction cars and they were fun as you still had to control your speed and it required skill to get fast lap times without crashing.Later on after I put my cars away my buddies kid got a new Tyco set and man the cars were so fast you could barely keep your eyes on them.the only thing was it was no longer fun as there was no skill involved,you just held the controller wide open and the cars would never fall off = BORING!I don`t race as there is not much around my area but if it`s too fast to watch and the cars are stuck like glue it wouldn`t be fun for me-to each his own.


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## Bill Hall

"Maybe I'm overly sensitive about those kind of things because I've seen too many colleagues in the hobby simply give up because they don't get support or encouragement for their efforts."

Understood!

I too am sensitive due to SADS. I get extra bitchy when the days get short and dark. In retrospect, sharpening the tone of my post sent it a bit off the mark. Just as a well honed blade wanders errantly through a brick of cheese and cuts yer finger. :freak:

After more thought, I still go back to the apples to oranges idea and agree that the party of the first part is a builders class with heavy emphasis on a complex "build" technology. A tradition that has developed over many generations. 

The party of the second part is a relatively young class that is door to door competetive right out of the can that sports a great out of the box experience and very close lap times.

At this time the nonmag inlines appear to be paying their dues in the breech between the pancake classes and the magnet classes. Personally I think they're a gas....light quick and nimble!


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## Black Oxxpurple

I have raced scale cars from T-Jets to 1/8 scale high powered nitro 4x4 buggies to 1:1 off road vehicles. I have read this post from start to finish, Lived on God's green earth for 5 plus decades. I have one resolve to this question that rains true in any one of my mentioned cases of cars. Each Class 1/64 scale to 1:1 scale, each owner will tell you how that class is "Best st up" and that owner will stick to his story to the very end.

It is what you like, set up how you like it, and from all of the knowledge that you have learned along the way. It will not matter in the end what any one says here, you will build your cars and tracks your way. 

Take the time to ENJOY this hobby your way. Life is short enjoy it!


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## Ogre

:thumbsup::beatdeadhorse:


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## partspig

OK, let's get back to pancakes shall we!!  :thumbsup: :thumbsup: pig


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## TGM2054

I'm in for pancakes!!!!:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## gomanvongo

TGM2054 said:


> I'm in for pancakes!!!!:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


shouldn't that be_ inline_ for pancakes? :wave:

j


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## ajd350

Now there's an idea....an inline pancake. Make everyone happy. Or no one happy.


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## partspig

partspig said:


>


Notice the nicely placed lubrication!! A dollop of butter on the top and maple syrup just dripping all over! It should surely be tasty and slide all the way down to Mr. Stomach! YUMMY!!  :thumbsup::thumbsup: pig


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## Pat Dennis

gomanvongo said:


> shouldn't that be_ inline_ for pancakes? :wave:
> 
> j


Like this?


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## slotcarman12078

Thanks Pat!! Ya made enough for all of us!! :thumbsup: :lol:


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## Boosted-Z71

That truly is an "Inline Pancake" Great pic

Boosted


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## NTxSlotCars

Toasty....


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## ParkRNDL

yeah, that tends to happen when I try cooking...


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