# Another Dumb Question from Rudy....



## rudykizuty (Aug 16, 2007)

Okay, here’s what I’ve been up to…….

I’ve been adding border to my track using HO scale railroad cork. Then I took some orange Tomy plastic guardrails and cut off the clips at the bottom of the posts. Then I used Krazy Glue to set nails into the slot on the back side of the guard rail posts. I sprayed the rails the desired color and when dried, went to sink the nails attached to the rail into the outside edges of the RR cork. And that’s when Rudy’s experiment went awry. 

Apparently, and this has now been verified on their website AFTER the jig was up, Krazy Glue will NOT bond to polyethylene. I guess I now know what type of plastic Tomy guard rail is made of. 

So the question is what now? I’m thinking hot glue gun, perhaps. Will it bond metal nails to plastic guard rail? 

Opinions? Thoughts?


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## T-Jet Racer (Nov 16, 2006)

on ho sot car racing site he glues the tracks togeter, it should say what glue is used take a look


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## Slott V (Feb 3, 2005)

Yep same with painting them. It will flake eventually. Cyanoacrylate is too brittle. You need a glue with some flex like Gorilla snot or even silicone. Caulk might work too.


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## rudykizuty (Aug 16, 2007)

T-Jet Racer said:


> on ho sot car racing site he glues the tracks togeter, it should say what glue is used take a look


Yes, that is Plastruct Plastic Weld. I am familiar with it. But that is used to bond plastic parts together by partly melting the two pieces where joined, thus welding them together. 

In this instance, I am looking to bond metal nails to the plastic guard rail. I could be wrong, but I don't think the Plastruct will have any effect on the nails.


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## rudykizuty (Aug 16, 2007)

Slott V said:


> Yep same with painting them. It will flake eventually. Cyanoacrylate is too brittle. You need a glue with some flex like Gorilla snot or even silicone. Caulk might work too.


Yeah, I noticed some flaking of the paint as well in the areas where I handled them during install. I have a can of spray primer for plastic, but skipped using it this go round. I was looking to save a little time and just wanted to see how the nails would hold up. :freak:

I thought about trying Gorilla Glue, but the blah blah says that it expands and requires clamping, blah, blah, blah. But anything's worth a shot til I find a way that works.


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## twolff (May 11, 2007)

For all the trouble you've been through so far, you might as well just build some from Plastruct. They will no doubt look better than the Orange Tomy rails. I don't know of anything that bonds polyethylene well enough for your intended application. Gorilla glue or slicone is close, but it is going to part company with the plastic with use (impacts) too.


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

*Spike it. DOT approved!*

Pics Rudy! 

Need a visual, but I'm gonna swing at this blindfolded anyway... I think I see what yer up to.

Dunno what the profile of the guard rail posts are and/or they have been cheaped down to an unworkable diamemter; but it works for the old school rails.

How about you carefully bore the guard rail posts with a pin vise....say one size under size of an appropriate fine stainless brad...maybe even quality sewing pins if the post diameter wont allow a brad. Ya might think they are pretty whimpy but they are actually fairly resilient and I would guesstimate that a stand of them in a row would still be adequately rigid.

Nip the head off the brad and work it into the post with the requisite amount hanging out to get ya into your subgrade. A impinge fit of an internal splint if you will.

The poly is rather flexible by nature and if you warm it in water the brads should slide right in without splitting the rail. No goober required. 

At that point one could drill the layout to accept the rail with spikes so a snug push fit was had and you could dot the post bases with whatever goober youd like to further secure them to your board.

Sounds tedious, but the poly drills like butter. I would lightly dot the post bases with a hot iron to make a "quicky pilot" to help get the drill started and keep ya from jabbing yer fingies.

Even if ya have scads of them to do it would be better than having it go fubar again....'magine a guy could crank a bunch out during an extra innings ball game.

Side note: Although I havent tried it on guardrails, Marhyde (sp), vinyl paint works wonderfully on flexible stuff.


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## rudykizuty (Aug 16, 2007)

Sorry, Bill. I posted from work while on break and have no pics here.....I can cover that when I get home. 

Your idea sounds similar to mine in terms of the desired end result, it's just that I tried to use the slot already molded into the gaurd rail post as a semi-"bore" to hold the nail. I'll have to look, but with that slot already there, I don't think the posts have enough meat left to be further bored. 

I don't mind taking time to get the job done right. But maybe twolff is right. It might be time to take another approach.


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## rudykizuty (Aug 16, 2007)

Bill, 
Here is the visual for what I was trying to do step by step. Sorry for the bad focus. The last pic is kinda sorta where I wanted to wind up, but a lot less crappy 

Since coming home, I've also tried heating the nails with a bic lighter, then inserting them into the slot, in the hope that it would embed the nail a bit into the plastic and hold firm. Functionally, it has possibilities, but I have not managed to have two posts look the same afterward. :freak: I'm not even gonna bother wasting the effort in pushing the shutter button on that one.


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Rudy I hafta ask, are these for looks or functionality? If you run alot of fast stuff, you may end up picking lots of wrecks off the floor, a low guard rail can be pretty effective at making sliding cars go airborne.

If you are going for the look, try gluing small pieces of plastic tubing to the backs of the posts, then just nail through the tubing.


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## rudykizuty (Aug 16, 2007)

Gene, 
I hear ya. But, yeah, it is the look that I was actually going after. Old school, when tracks still actually had guard rails instead of concrete walls. For now, anyway......

I haven't had anything leave the table since I put up the side walls (see last pic), but if I start to because I've moved up in the world, well.........anything and everything is subject to change. 

Love the tube idea. I smell another winner from Gene. Thanks!!


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

*Toe nail*



SwamperGene said:


> Rudy I hafta ask, are these for looks or functionality? If you run alot of fast stuff, you may end up picking lots of wrecks off the floor, a low guard rail can be pretty effective at making sliding cars go airborne.
> 
> If you are going for the look, try gluing small pieces of plastic tubing to the backs of the posts, then just nail through the tubing.


I thought the point of this excercise was that glue wont stick?! LOL!

Rudy, I see you are bucking off the cleat at the post bottom. Any reason one couldnt just buck off the tangs and leave the little shoulder with the flush factory bottom intact? If ya predrilled on a slight angle through the shoulder you could spike right on through.

You'd have to use a gasket punch on your cork to maintain the correct height. By going a hair under size on the punch hole the posts would nuzzle right in like they were buried as the coark is flexible enough to allow some wiggle room. Put a dab of caulk or construction adhesive in each hole. Then use a nail set to drive in the brads.


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## twolff (May 11, 2007)

If the nail is big enough, a length of heat shrink tubing should hold it in the slot. Or the heat shrink would stay in place and some CA glue would hold the nail to the heat shrink. There would still be an issue with them holding paint though.


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## rudykizuty (Aug 16, 2007)

Bill, where the glue is concerned, it was a matter of not being able to get the metal nail to bond with the plastic rail. I'm guessing that Plastruct for the platic to plastic bond will be okay. 

You guys are great. Everyone has given me a lot to think about and there are several approaches I like. I have to figure out which one gets the first try. Thanks, guys!!


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## Slott V (Feb 3, 2005)

My track is filled with Tyco guard rails that are mounted into the wood inlays. All I did was nip off the clips, drill holes into the wood and force the posts into the wood with a flat blade screwdriver. They are also siliconed in.










Here is an example of doing realistic looking ARMCO barriers using Plastruct like Twolff referenced:



















-Scott


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## Slott V (Feb 3, 2005)

And for the paint- try to find a self etching primer as a base first. Then don't bend them too much when installing. You can also find flex agents to add to paint if you want to get really involved. Hobby Lobby or an automotive paint supply store would carry this.


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## Dslot (Sep 2, 2007)

*Gluing Guardrails*

Rudy,

There is an adhesive called *Walthers' Goo* that has been widely used in model railroading just about forever. You should be able to get it at any model-train hobby shop or order it from Walthers. It is a rubber based contact cement that sticks to anything and remains slightly flexible even after it has dried. It does a decent job bonding the Tomy guardrails to steel nails. I ran some tests on my little test-circuit. See the photos.

I found some small-head finishing nails in my "pins and brads" box. The original package is gone, but they mike out at .067" (about wire gauge 14) x 1.25" long. And they are a _press fit_ into the slot in the Tomy posts.

I tried driving the nail through the cork and into the table at an angle because I'd be too lazy to cut off all those nail heads. Then I popped the base of the cut-off post onto them. The nail head sticks out to form a sort of angled brace-looking thing in back. I removed the guardrail and made final adjustments to the nail angle with sideways taps from the tack-hammer. 

Once it was right, I put some Goo into the guardrail slot and onto the nail head. I pressed the two together, and then pulled them apart. This is the approved method for using Goo - get it on both surfaces and let it dry for a few seconds (I blow on it) then press the parts back together. This makes an instant-grip bond. I clamped the joint with a clothespin and went to the next one. 

Later I painted the nail orange with craft acrylics. The bump in the back looks a little odd, but probably won't be noticed by most folks.

That worked so well, I tried first cutting the head off the nail with a fiberglass cutting disk in the Dremel. I found it was no problem to drive the nail vertically into the cork and wood with no head, and the final installation looks so neat (last picture) that I might even consider all that head-cutting. My guess is that with that size nail, you might not even need any adhesive - just pop the shaft into the slot and count on the springiness of the plastic to hold it there. If not, the Goo works fine. I'll bet three or four nails per guardrail section would do it. 

Leave the posts clamped with clothespins overnight until the Goo reaches full strength.

There you have it - no fussy measuring or drilling and no extra pieces to add. I think the easiest way would be drive the first nail, place the first post and clamp it without gluing. Then the next post and the next. Then unclamp and pop off the guardrail, do the glue in all the slots at once. Then put back and reclamp. Since you have the clothespins to hold them, you don't need the instant-bond feature, so you could just skip the pull-apart-and-let-dry step. Just glue one side and clamp.
Have fun.

-- D


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## rudykizuty (Aug 16, 2007)

D,
Your end result is exactly where I was looking to get. However, my method in getting there was all wrong. Without doubt, your approach makes more sense. Thanks.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

What is it about Tomy guardrails? They have figured out how to manufacture a substance that is totally impervious to any paint known to man. Then they mold them a garish orange color that occurs nowhere in the spectrum of colors associated with any natural substances on the planet. If they would simply mold them in a color like gray, silver, or even white they would be entirely acceptable and even desirable. I can't imagine what they were thinking.


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## Dslot (Sep 2, 2007)

*Painting Flexible Plastic*



AfxToo said:


> What is it about Tomy guardrails? They have figured out how to manufacture a substance that is totally impervious to any paint known to man. Then they mold them a garish orange color... If they would simply mold them in a color like gray, silver, or even white they would be entirely acceptable...


I suspect the orange is just to set Tomy apart from other brands. If you hate the orange, there are plenty of white Aurora and yellow Tyco and Aurora guardrails available cheap on eBay (at least there used to be). Silver plastic would be a neat idea.

I'm not entirely sure the guardrails are unpaintable. The miniature wargamers have had this problem for years with the soft plastic 1:72 figures. Most paint forms a hard rigid crust, but is not well bonded to the plastic; when bayonets or rifles flex, the paint cracks and pops off. The plastic soldier guys say that the solution is to wash residue of the mold-release agent off the plastic and then use flexible primer and paint. They say, if done properly, you can bend the plastic almost double without losing paint.

First, you wash the mold release chemicals off the plastic with warm water and dishwashing detergent and a toothbrush (some say to use vinegar instead), then rinse with clean water and dry. Prime with a flexible spray paint, such as "vinyl and fabric" paint for car interiors (from the auto parts store), or spray acrylic or latex. Let dry and paint any parts that are not supposed to be the spray paint color with craft acrylic paints, which are flexible. I have done this with plastic figures, but haven't handled them enough to know if the claims are true. 

Two possible problems:
1. I think guardrails are generally polyethylene, while the small soldiers used by gamers are usually some sort of vinyl. Might make a difference, might not.

2. The impact of a car hitting the guardrail is sharper and more violent than anything a toy soldier is likely to receive in gaming. Even if the method stands up to handling, bending and dropping, it may not be enough to withstand a fast car hitting the rail.

But if guardrail color is important to you, it might be worth a test or two to find out. I just use Aurora white ones, myself, so I've never tried this.

-- D


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

I'm using the old Aurora yellow ones, which are "acceptable." But I have a big bag full of the Tomy orange ones that will probably survive into the next ice age looking as ugly as the day they were molded. I've tried chemical deglossers and etchers followed by Fusion paint. No luck. Whomever makes this mystery paint repelling substance ought to sell it to the manufacturers of products that are prone to graffiti vandalism.


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## Dslot (Sep 2, 2007)

*Etching Poly*



AfxToo said:


> I've tried chemical deglossers and etchers followed by Fusion paint. No luck.


I wondered about Krylon's Fusion paint when I wrote my post. They claim it's formulated to bond well to plastic, but I've never used it. Sorry to hear it didn't do the job on the polyethylene.

Just trying to think of what might etch polyethylene - I have some Muriatic Acid that I could dip a piece into. I hate working with the stuff, but it might be worth a try. Oven cleaners with lye might ruin its day (but I wouldn't bet on it).

Have you ever tried sandblasting the surface of the plastic to provide more texture for the paint to hold on to?

All this is going to a lot of trouble to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear - I guess the thrill of the abstract challenge has taken over from the practical problem. I'm okay with that if you are.:wave:

-- D


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

Blasting poly produces a rough suede looking texture. Some areas will almost shred. Other areas will be rather pocky. This is caused by the angle of attack of the blast nozzel. Been there done that.

Muriatic is generally stored in poly/plastic jugs for a reason. Impervious.

I've got some Marhyde left in the 1:1 shop and will try a test shot.


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## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)

I should've jumped in with my $.02 worth earlier on this but somehow I missed it.

I used 1/32 guardrail from Ninco (I think) and just hacked the posts down. Then, I hot glued a nail to the back of the post and drilled a hole through the table top for the nail to spike into. Simple and easy.

And where I have my guardrails you don't really see any of the glue work, so bonus right there.

Couple pics:


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## rudykizuty (Aug 16, 2007)

Dslot said:


> All this is going to a lot of trouble to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear - I guess the thrill of the abstract challenge has taken over from the practical problem. I'm okay with that if you are.:wave:
> -- D



LOL....I hear ya. Being the newer guy around here, leave it to me to start the whole thing. 

But that said, I consider HT the place where my experienced friends hang out. I've learned a lot since joining up here last summer and discussions like these on what works and what doesn't have immense value to me. So, I'm not only okay with it, I thank everyone here for it :wave:


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## rudykizuty (Aug 16, 2007)

'doba,
If I haven't mentioned it before, I've always liked how you dressed up that corner with the 1:32 Bridgestone decals. That's an awesome detail.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

While on the guard rail theme... I have a few areas around my track where the sidewall also serves as the crash wall. After a few hard whacks I found a weatherstripping material that's like a SAFER barrier in HO scale, a K-profile EPDM Rubber: 

http://www.mdteam.com/products.php?category=208

Picture to follow...


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## Dslot (Sep 2, 2007)

*Poly Guardrail Painting - Test*

To get off the mold release, I dipped a piece of orange poly Tomy guardrail in vinegar and scrubbed with a toothbrush, rinsed, and just for good measure, did the same with warm water and detergent. That made a difference in how much water beads up on the surface, so I figured it was a step worth doing, though it may not need both treatments.

I roughed up the surface a bit with a wire wheel at low/med speed in a Dremel tool. It did a good job in the groove, but I wasn't sure it was getting the whole surface on the rest. Then had an inspiration and folded a corner of a thin abrasive pad (that spongy horsehair type stuff) over the rail, pinched and sanded down the length. That scuffed it up pretty well on both sides.

I washed it again in detergent, rinsed, dried and sprayed the rail with Duplicolor's Vinyl and Cloth paint for auto interiors (tan - the only color I had). I let it dry until I couldn't smell the solvent (about 48 hrs). Then I painted the rail with silver acrylic craft paint (Delta Ceramcoat "Gleams"). Also painted the posts with a faded green acrylic craft paint and let dry 24 hrs. I didn't really trust it to stand impacts, so for half the length, I coated the rail (both sides) with Future acrylic floor polish to see if that would help.

I set up the guardrail around a 6" curve. I started cars at the beginning of an 18" straight, floored the controller and gunned them into the curve. They generally hit the rail at about the same point between the second and third post on the uncoated end of the guardrail. After a hundred impacts with a JL Nova T-jet and another 120 impacts with various mag-AFX bodies, there was a spot of slightly shinier silver at the impact point, but no orange or tan showing.

On the projecting "foot" of the posts, just above the surface of the cork,two posts showed a thin line of orange, maybe from the tires acting as a rotating sanding disk when the cars hit or ran along the rail. There was also a small scratch (1/16") on the lower bulge of the rail that appeared early in the test, but did not enlarge or start to peel. It shows as dark but not orange. There was a smaller (1/32") chip or scrape near the bottom of the guardrail, that _did_ show orange and a tiny flap of peeled paint under magnification.

Mounting - The guardrail posts were simply press-fit onto clipped-head nails driven into a solid wood tabletop just outside the outer edge of the cork roadbed. During the test the first post came loose from its nail. I tapped the nail slightly sideways to put more tension on the guardrail and it held until the end of the test.

Since the paint held so well on the uncoated end of the rail, I did no impact tests on the end coated with Future.

The Duplicolor vinyl paint also comes in silver, so a separate acrylic paint layer may not be necessary. Since I didn't test a section of rail with just the base paint on it, I can't say how well it would stand up. I think I'd coat it with Future, just for the extra insurance.

The abrasive pad was a red-brown color, bought in a hardware store. I don't know if a standard green dish-scrubber type would do the same. If it dulls the reflective shine all along the guardrail surface, I'd guess it would be adequate.

I was surprised how well the paint stood up to repeated impacts and scrapes. Still, I don't know how it will last over the long run. I think I'd just do a couple of pieces, and see how well they worked before investing the time in painting all of them.


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## tjettim (Nov 29, 2005)

In a pan of hot water black Rit clothing die can turn most plastics
black.Gorrilla is crap.After a few weeks my glued joints turned hard
and brittle and cracked,then fell apart.


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## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)

AfxToo said:


> While on the guard rail theme... I have a few areas around my track where the sidewall also serves as the crash wall. After a few hard whacks I found a weatherstripping material that's like a SAFER barrier in HO scale, a K-profile EPDM Rubber:
> 
> http://www.mdteam.com/products.php?category=208
> 
> Picture to follow...


That looks great!

Is that a Menards / Home Cheapo / Loew's type purchase?


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

Yup! I think it is intended to be separated into two thinner strips, but it comes mounted as a double K which I think makes a perfect barrier. I've been running with it in place and and it is holding up perfectly. I like the look.

My apologies for not wiping down my track for the photo op. I've been redoing my drivers stations and haven't run cars in a while. The power is turned back ON today, woo hoo!


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