# Kawasaki Lower Oil Seal Question



## Tamfan

Kawasaki FH381V-DS10-M 

Lower Oil Seal has a leak.

To replace it, can I take it off and install from the the PTO side (bottom side).
Surely I wouldn't have to split the crankcase and install from inside down???

Gonna check breather system to see if it's obstructed also to make sure crankcase pressure isn't building and causing lower seal to leak.

Thanks for any advice!


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## 30yearTech

You have to install the seal from the PTO side, it cannot be installed from the inside as the journal is a smaller diameter then that of the seal.


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## Tamfan

30yearTech said:


> You have to install the seal from the PTO side, it cannot be installed from the inside as the journal is a smaller diameter then that of the seal.


Thank You very much 30 yr!


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## Tamfan

Put in two seals over the past 2 weeks. Each time I'm still getting oil leaking from the lower seal.

I put a thin coat of oil on the inner part of the seal to prevent a dry start, but it still leaks pretty bad after start up.

Any ideas on the best way to install these? They go in tight and I know they need to stay straight going in.
I caught myself being extra careful on this second seal, but I'm getting leaking around the inner part of the seal where the shaft is.

Thanks for any help guys!


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## 30yearTech

I have one doing the same thing. I have not had a chance to look at it yet, but will soon. Customer replaced seal 2 times, but say's it's still leaking. I will be looking at it in the next few days, I will let you know what I find, perhaps your unit is having the same issue.


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## Tamfan

30yearTech said:


> I have one doing the same thing. I have not had a chance to look at it yet, but will soon. Customer replaced seal 2 times, but say's it's still leaking. I will be looking at it in the next few days, I will let you know what I find, perhaps your unit is having the same issue.


Yes sir, Thank you so much. I'm really curious how to go about getting these seals to work properly. Good luck


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## 30yearTech

Tamfan said:


> Yes sir, Thank you so much. I'm really curious how to go about getting these seals to work properly. Good luck


The engine I have for service is an FH430 v but very similar to your engine. After inspecting the engine, I can't see any reason for the seal to be leaking, but the engine I am working on also has a blown head gasket, so I am ordering some parts for it and will tear it down and have a look inside since I am replacing the head gaskets. I will let you know what I find out.


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## Don L

Blown head gasket building up pressure in the crankcase and causing seal to leak maybe?
Please keep us posted since Kawasaki engines are showing up on a lot of the Cub Cadets I deal with.
Thanks,Don


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## 30yearTech

Don L said:


> Blown head gasket building up pressure in the crankcase and causing seal to leak maybe?
> Please keep us posted since Kawasaki engines are showing up on a lot of the Cub Cadets I deal with.
> Thanks,Don


That's what I suspected, so I pulled one of the head's today, but at least on this model, there is no direct pathway for a blown head gasket to feed pressure into the crankcase. There is an open dam between the push rod galley and the cylinder that would prevent a blown head gasket from delivering any pressure into the crankcase


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## Tamfan

Hey guys,

Like I mentioned on my first post, I did end up pulling the breather plate off and inspected the breather chamber. Really no sign of anything wrong with it. I got the breather cover kit which comes with a new plate and gasket and put it on just to eliminate that as a source for pressure problems. 
I also replace the Dip Stick Tube assembly and had to replace the mounting bracket for the starter.

On my second lower seal install, it didn't take but a few seconds before I had oil coming out of the inner part of the seal against the shaft.

Just wanted to fill you in on everything I've done. I've got another seal on the way.


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## Tamfan

*Still no luck, oil pours out seal*

I solicited help from the leading dealer in the area here. I asked them to install the lower seal for me since the first two I installed still had oil leaking from the seal. We are all busy but they jumped right on it and put in on for me. I got the unit back to my shop to test it and it spewed oil right away and at a steady stream with the engine at idle speed. 

It's really got me stumped.
I want to think there's some kind of crankcase pressure issue but I checked the breather chamber and put on a new breather plate and gasket. 
I know 3 seals can be defective. There is no sign of the crank surface having burrs or deformation. The dealer as well as myself lightly oiled the seal surfaces to prevent dry startup. 

Did you have any luck 30 year?

This is a head scratcher for sure!


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## 30yearTech

Tamfan said:


> Did you have any luck 30 year? This is a head scratcher for sure!


I have not been able to get back to that engine yet. Crazy busy with other repairs, and this one still has some other parts on order. Will let you know as soon as I have a chance to get back on it.


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## Tamfan

*Could be Head Gaskets afterall.....We'll see*



30yearTech said:


> I have not been able to get back to that engine yet. Crazy busy with other repairs, and this one still has some other parts on order. Will let you know as soon as I have a chance to get back on it.


Decided to go a lot further. There's no way 3 newly installed seals could be bad and/or installed poorly by myself or the respected dealer that I asked to help.

So I decided to check behind myself regarding the breather chamber and go ahead and pull the Heads since: 1) Engine was very dirty 2) Air Box has light oil film and dirt around it and some inside. 3) This FH engine is on a Propane Buffer that is low to the ground and they run hot anyways---I've done Head Gasket work on almost everyone that we service for a chain in town.

I'm gonna try to show pics of the blown heads and show the debris they have collected. I'll also try to show a pic of the Breather Chamber with the plate and gasket off so you guys can see what I'm seeing. 

I keep FH Head Gaskets in stock and will have to get another Breather Gasket, but this baby is getting a good cleaning today and once I get it back together I'll update the forum.

Never posted pics here before but I'll give it a try...should be 4 of them.

Thanks!


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## Tamfan

Don L said:


> Blown head gasket building up pressure in the crankcase and causing seal to leak maybe?
> Please keep us posted since Kawasaki engines are showing up on a lot of the Cub Cadets I deal with.
> Thanks,Don


Don, I posted pics of both Heads and the Breather Chamber. 
I have to clean up the engine and replace both gaskets anyways and I'll update when I get it together and tested.

Thanks for your post!


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## Tamfan

*Update 5/4/2013*

Update:

Still Leaking from lower seal after:

Cleaning entire engine "Spotless"!!! Cleaned between ALL air fins on block and Heads. Made certain to clean all passages within the Heads.

Cleaned every single part that was removed.
Replaced Head Gaskets on both cylinders.
Replaced Rocker Cover Gaskets.
Replaced Breather Gasket.
Gapped Ign coils.
Adjusted Valve Clearances to Spec.
New Exhaust Gaskets.

Did NOT replace Lower Seal again, since it's on it's 3rd one within 2 weeks as mentioned before. 

Engine now continues to leak from lower seal and now it even burns a little oil as white smoke from the muffler.

I'm missing something on what could cause this crankcase pressure to continue.


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## 30yearTech

I am going to break the one I am looking at down and check all the oil passages internally to make sure oil under pressure from the pump is not causing the leak. I should be looking at this one this coming Wednesday, I will let you know what if anything I discover.


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## Don L

It's hard to tell from the photos but I think the cylinder head in the second photo looks like it has discoloration and possible leakage.If the engine has overheated it may have warped the cylinder head.
You can check it with a straight edge and feeler gage.


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## 30yearTech

Don L said:


> It's hard to tell from the photos but I think the cylinder head in the second photo looks like it has discoloration and possible leakage.If the engine has overheated it may have warped the cylinder head.
> You can check it with a straight edge and feeler gage.


Warped or not, if you look at the 3rd picture of the crankcase/cylinder on this engine, you will see an open valley that would prevent any leakage of the cylinder from entering the crankcase. I can't see how this would cause the lower seal to leak.


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## Tamfan

Service Manual for this engine states:
The function of the breather is to create a vacuum in the crankcase which prevents oil from being forced out of the
engine through the piston rings, oil seals or gaskets. A sealed-type crankcase emission control system is used to eliminate
blow-by gases. The blow-by gases are led to the breather chamber through the crankcase and the camshaft. Then, it is
drawn into the clean side of the air cleaner through the cylinder head and the hose and mixed with the clean air flow, and
subsequently comes into the combustion chamber through the carburetor and the intake manifold.
Oil is primarily separated from the gases while passing through the inside of the rocker chamber from the crankcase,
and secondly separated from the gases in the breather chamber, and then returned back to the crankcase cover.

I'm trying to understand were there could be a blockage in all of this.
It says "The blow-by gases are led to the breather chamber through the crankcase and the camshaft". 
Really trying to avoid cracking the crankcase open on this unit if possible.

How would the blow-by gases enter the breathe chamber via the camshaft? I can understand the camshaft having passages milled into it, but where is it entering the chamber at? (guessing it "could" be thru the round black thing centered opposite the deep chamber well of the breather.

Troubleshooting section speaks of a clogged breather valve under the "Excessive Oil Consumption" category. Trying to figure out where this breather valve is located.


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## 30yearTech

Tore my engine down today. Here is what I found. Something foreign down in the area of the bottom journal of the crankshaft (see the 2nd pic). I believe it may have been blocking the port in the crankshaft and preventing oil from the pump to flow up through crankshaft. This perhaps was causing too much oil pressure down around the lower journal and forcing oil past the seal. Looking at the sump and the filter screen in the oil pump there was some debris accumulated around the screen and well area of the sump. It looks like the oil pump delivers oil through the oil filter and then to the lower journal of the crankshaft, the oil then flows up through the crankshaft to the rod journal and continues to the upper journal and then I think the camshaft. This is an automotive type oil pump and can deliver high pump pressure, so any restriction in the flow through the crankshaft could result in oil being forced through the seal. There was some damage to the crankshaft that I noticed in the last picture, which was near the lower seal area, but after reassembly and testing it is no longer leaking (at least for now).


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## Tamfan

30yearTech said:


> Tore my engine down today. Here is what I found. Something foreign down in the area of the bottom journal of the crankshaft (see the 2nd pic). I believe it may have been blocking the port in the crankshaft and preventing oil from the pump to flow up through crankshaft. This perhaps was causing too much oil pressure down around the lower journal and forcing oil past the seal. Looking at the sump and the filter screen in the oil pump there was some debris accumulated around the screen and well area of the sump. It looks like the oil pump delivers oil through the oil filter and then to the lower journal of the crankshaft, the oil then flows up through the crankshaft to the rod journal and continues to the upper journal and then I think the camshaft. This is an automotive type oil pump and can deliver high pump pressure, so any restriction in the flow through the crankshaft could result in oil being forced through the seal. There was some damage to the crankshaft that I noticed in the last picture, which was near the lower seal area, but after reassembly and testing it is no longer leaking (at least for now).


Very Good 30yr! Glad your leak stopped.
Was it just a matter of cleaning or did you have to replace anything? Just wondering also if you had to replace the Crankcase gasket or did you use a sealant. I suspect the unit I have is gonna be crudded up inside too. 

On your unit, was the sump (base) plate all you had to remove to clean up the debris you saw? Just trying to prepare for any surprises when I crack mine open. 
I have a buddy who's a Briggs MST and he keeps steering me back to the Head Gaskets causing the High CC pressure...but I've done everything just short of totally replacing expensive heads. I'm thinking along the lines as you with blockages in the passages of oil flow internally causing high pressure.


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## 30yearTech

I did replace the pan gasket, but I did not tear it down any further then pulling the sump off. I cleaned up the oil pump well and filter screen, replaced the filter, and blew out the oil ports to make sure they were all open. 

The design of this engine does not allow pressure from a blown head gasket to enter into the engine at the push rod galley, so a blown head gasket is not going to pressurize the crankcase!

I don't know if this is the cause of your leak or not, but it was the cause in my case.


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## Don L

I have a buddy who's a Briggs MST and he keeps steering me back to the Head Gaskets causing the High CC pressure...but I've done everything just short of totally replacing expensive heads. I'm thinking along the lines as you with blockages in the passages of oil flow internally causing high pressure.[/QUOTE]

This has been a very useful topic for me since most of my experience has been Briggs,Koehler and Tecumseh.
I've worked on quite a few Kawasaki's but mostly fuel related issues.Always glad to learn,especially from someone else's experience.
(The first paragraph should have been a quote.)


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## Bodyguard38

*I know this is a old thread but*

i want to let people know what I found on mine. It was doing the same thing, and after a couple seals I tore it apart and found the bottom crank bearing had slid down and blocked the passage. It wouldn't let the oil get anywhere but by that seal. Check yours it may be the same.


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## carlsand

In Bodyguard38's reply to this post he mentioned that he found the bottom crank bearing had slid down and blocked the oil passage. I have a Kawasaki 15 hp FH430V that has a lower crankshaft seal leak. When I replaced the seal, I inspected the crank for any damage, nicks, etc. but found nothing. In fact, the seal lip didn't really look bad, or at least it didn't show any obvious sign of leakage other than the bottom of the mower/pulleys being covered with oil. While inspecting the crank with the seal removed, I noticed there was an item that *resembled* an automotive camshaft journal bearing (best way I know how to describe this item) to be positioned around the lower portion of the crankshaft journal. It looked to extend approx 1/2" past the face of the case, but did appear to be extending up into the case as well. I phoned an eXmark dealer and spoke to their service tech to inquire if this "camshaft bearing" and the manner in which it was found was a normal condition. The tech advised the item I was seeing was a "bushing" and it was in its normal position. With this information, I proceeded to replace the seal and re-assemble the pulleys/belts etc. I ran the mower (without the PTO engaged) for about 10 min and did not notice any further oil leak. Then, I ran the mower long enough (PTO engaged) to mow a small yard, and noticed oil being thrown around under the mower deck. Obviously, oil is leaking past the lower crankshaft seal again. To make long story short, I'm wondering if the "camshaft bearing" I noticed when replacing the first seal is actually the bottom crankshaft bearing that Bodyguard38 described above, and is blocking the passage as he described? Anyone having thoughts on this or experiencing a similar situation, please respond. Also, if this a case of a "slipped down" crank bearing, what is the best approach to get it back into position? Can it be gently tapped back fully into the case with a flat-faced punch? Thanks for any help anyone can provide.


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## finaprint

It can likely be moved back in place but once moving it won't stay there. You'd have to disassemble likely to loctite it in place (needs to be bone dry). Maybe there is some way you can pin it in place. No pics to work out the design there. 

Nobody ever mentions that if there is enough wear on shaft or bearing there the crank can deflect under load enough to possibly leak when one side of the seal does not contact the shaft any longer. Seals only have maybe .005"-.007" contact, more wear than that and they leak even if new. I've had push mowers wear that much to leak there.


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## carlsand

I thought I'd pay an in-person visit to the mower repair shop and try to speak with an actual technician familiar with the Kawasaki FH430V engine. He confirmed that what I found was in fact the PTO end of the crankshaft bearing and that he had seen it only one other time in his career. He suggested that if I was trying to do a "save" on this engine, I would need to somehow get the bearing all the way out and thoroughly clean away any traces of oil from the bearing surface and the bore in the engine case. Providing the surfaces of the bearing (I.D & O.D.), engine case bore and crankshaft journal were not damaged, he suggested obtaining a product carried by NAPA (Fel-Pro "Sleeve-N-Seal") and use the "cement" to hold the bearing insert into the case. If that's not successful, the next step is to order a new replacement lower engine pan from Kawasaki, which contains the bearing insert already installed. Apparently, the PTO end crank bearing is not available separately, but the crank bearing for the flywheel end is available. Not sure if this group has any interest in me continuing to post messages about this issue, but if there is and you give me a thumbs-up to continue posting my progress, I'll try to include some photos of the repair process. Just let me know...


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## granulawn

Tamfan said:


> Kawasaki FH381V-DS10-M
> 
> Lower Oil Seal has a leak.
> 
> To replace it, can I take it off and install from the the PTO side (bottom side).
> Surely I wouldn't have to split the crankcase and install from inside down???
> 
> Gonna check breather system to see if it's obstructed also to make sure crankcase pressure isn't building and causing lower seal to leak.
> 
> Thanks for any advice!


I've been through a few of them look at your sleeve with a crankshaft to the housing they like too fall can fall down when hot overheated and move .I put a couple dimpels around the housing and the Bearing basically four of them when I bearings are kind of locked in place


Tamfan said:


> Kawasaki FH381V-DS10-M
> 
> Lower Oil Seal has a leak.
> 
> To replace it, can I take it off and install from the the PTO side (bottom side).
> Surely I wouldn't have to split the crankcase and install from inside down???
> 
> Gonna check breather system to see if it's obstructed also to make sure crankcase pressure isn't building and causing lower seal to leak.
> 
> Thanks for any advice!


 a lot of time steel or bearing that's in the casing that the crankshaft ride on


30yearTech said:


> You have to install the seal from the PTO side, it cannot be installed from the inside as the journa leve that the crankshaft Rison


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