# New to dyno's



## rcman456 (Dec 19, 2005)

So I hear the ce td45 is the most accurate and best going. Prices for it are out of my price range. 
How accurate and easy to read is the buds motor analyzing dyno? 
How does it compare to the Tekin DYN 900 dyno? How accurate and easy to read is this dyno?
Is the Tekin TM900 the same dyno as the Tekin DYN 900? 
What are the comparsions between the two of these dynos compared to the holy grail "ce td45".


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## SJacquez (Sep 28, 2001)

Not really a comparison. Save the money and buy a TurboDyno.


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## rctazmanmc (Oct 8, 2001)

I went through what you are. I had a CS really nice dyno at one time and I have sold it off. I will be starting to deal with motor rebuilders like Eric at EA that will cut the com, install new brushes, align/polish the bushings, align the hoods, zapp the motor, and dyno it on a turbo dyno for $10. Basically a new motor as long as the com and bushings are not shot.

The cost I had wrapped up into it was not worth it and the amount of motors I was going through did not justify itself. I did not use it enough to keep it.

I agree the turbo dyno is the way to go but the prices are nuts and for what you pay you could get a ton of motors, batteries or whatever other gear that you need.

Just food for thought. Can not beat a $10 motor rebuild by a experienced hobbiest.

mc


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## mbeach2k (Sep 14, 2004)

do yourself a huge favor and don't get into the dyno game, buy a brushless system and all those worries are gone


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## pepe (Sep 29, 2001)

You really don't need a dyno,let the track be your dyno,but don't buy into the brushless is better game either.


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## mbeach2k (Sep 14, 2004)

it's not a game, it has been reality for almost 2 years now.
it has grown by leaps and bounds from 2 people to well over 30 in our area alone!
pan cars, trucks and buggies, and touring car
i'm not trying to tell anyone what they should run, they have to make that decision, but the brushless class is cheaper and easier and has drawn a lot of people


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## pepe (Sep 29, 2001)

the reality is called "laziness" or the lack of desire to learn about brushed motors and how they work.


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## mbeach2k (Sep 14, 2004)

neither, i been doing this for 16 years and i've done all the dynos and motors and brushes, ect., and i like brushless better.
and you don't even know me to pass judgement on me or what iam like!!!!!


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## pepe (Sep 29, 2001)

Not passing judgment at all,I just know see all the reasons people are giving for brushless,no more motor work,no more cutting coms, no more dynoing, no more this, no more that ETC ETC.It just sounds like a lazy group of people to me,imop


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## mbeach2k (Sep 14, 2004)

maybe we are overly social


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## Roadsplat (Oct 28, 2002)

pepe said:


> the reality is called "laziness" or the lack of desire to learn about brushed motors and how they work.





mbeach2k said:


> neither, i been doing this for 16 years and i've done all the dynos and motors and brushes, ect., and i like brushless better.
> and you don't even know me to pass judgement on me or what iam like!!!!!


 I gotta agree with mbeach2k on this one...I've been doing this since 1985 and I've done more than my share of rebuilding motors and learning about brushed motors. For awhile I was even winding my own arms (not that they were anything special ) . I switched over to brushless about the middle of last season and it's been great. The competion has been fantastic!! It's really forced people to "learn" how to tune their chassis instead of bolting in some HP to compensate for their poor chassis tuning skills. 

The fact of the matter is, that you can have what you percieve as a poor motor and give it to one of the fast guys at the track and have him run it without doing any tuning to it and I would bet that 85 - 90% of the time he would still be able to win. Why you may ask....cause he's figured out that it's not all about having the fastest motor it's about have a car that can hold the speed in and through the corners. 

Dyno's can be a great tool but they can also get you going in the wrong direction. Don't get to hung up on the numbers. If you do need to have a dyno I would do as suggested earlier and save your money for a TurboDyno as the other ones you mention really are no comparison.

Pepe is 100% correct with his statement...let the track be your dyno. It the best thing and it's free!!

RC


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## HookupsXXX4 (Dec 4, 2003)

I'd like to throw my .02 cents in...

Man, I have been thinking about brushless for along time. Not cuz I want one, I just know that someday that will be the main class to run in. 

I also come from way back, 1985, so I have been playing with motors for a long time. Trying to make them go faster, that was the fun part of it for me anyway. But it takes time. We all know that. There are too many little "tricks" you have to know as well.

With brushless, all that is gone. Everyone is running on the same playing field. Like the fella posted earlier, it comes down to set-up and driving.

I will stick with a brushed motor till it gets to the point where I have to go brushless to run in the main classs at my local tracks.

As far as dynos, I pit with rctazmanmc. So I was able to use the dyno he talked about. Dynos, they are nice, cuz there is no guessing what your motors are putting out. When it comes down to it, the track is the best dyno. I have had motors run some killer numbers, but when I got it on the track, the "slower" numbered motors blew them away.

Thanks, 
Jerry


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## rcman456 (Dec 19, 2005)

Well the info is good. Thank you guys for the replies. I would like to learn these motors better and how to do them up. I dont want to get too involved as the track is the best place to tell what your motor will do but I would like to do this stuff myself.
I've been searching a few sites for some time now for a cetd45 but havent had any luck in finding a decent price(why I was considering a Tekin or Buds dyno and finding out just how good they are or their comparsions) and one that did have a SOLD sign next to the text.  e/bay surprisingly has had nothing on it that Im aware of since I started looking. That or Im just missing them when Im not surfing.
Well I guess Ill just have to wait for one to pop up somewhere and take the plunge. 
Thank you for your responses'. Its a big help especially when I was considering a Buds dyno thats on e/bay right now. :hat: Which I dont like to get involved with bidding wars.


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## pepe (Sep 29, 2001)

Well,that's what I mean once you figure out that the real key to motor building is just keeping the motors fresh and not sitting there and spending hours upon hours trying to eek out that last little bit of HP then you will realize that motor building really isn't all that bad it's just kinda a part of keeping up the car,the fast guys know that the real speed is in the chassis not in the motors.I've been sayin for a while now that the best dyno on the market is the orion lap counter,it tells the real story.


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## EddieO (Sep 19, 2003)

Oh don't worry....

They will soon have Dyno's for brushless.....

And geeks like me will figure out ways to make them faster than the next guys.......

Just open up any Reedy or Novak brushless motor.......you can't tell me a with a straight face those windings look GOOD.......they look like Stevie Wonder wound them......

Little tuning tricks will find their way......so then people will have to find some other way to try to equalize racing......

I got an idea.....why not just answer the guys question about Dyno's instead of trying to steer him towards a different technology....

To answer the question.....The Turbodyno 45 is the best dyno out there.....the Robitronics works well also....

Later EddieO


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## mbeach2k (Sep 14, 2004)

you can dyno brushless with the dynos now, but there is no point they are virtually identical and i hate to have a guy buy hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of equipment that he won't use,and won't be able to sell in the very near future.
also the dyno results are on the northern michigan thread
http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=100873


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## pepe (Sep 29, 2001)

A dyno is not necessary for the avg or even above avg racer,this is what we need to be telling and emphasizing to new people wanting to get in the hobby.If a guy wants to buy a dyno it's because he WANTS to not because he HAS to.


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## DynoMoHum (Sep 25, 2001)

Wow... I can pretty much agree 100% with EddieO...

I had a TD45... I regret selling it when I did... simply because they sell for about 3 times what I sold it for two years ago... and maybe also a little bit of regret about selling it because... You can dyno a brushless motor on a TD45... 

I've still got my Robitronic but haven't used it in at least a year. I've not yet attempted to try and dyno a brushless motor on it... I think there's at least a 50/50 chance I can figure out a way to make it work with burhless motors...

It won't be long before somone markets a dyno specificly intended to be used with brushless motors... and as Eddie has said, there will be geeks like him and me who try to use one to figure out how to make a brushless motor faster...

I have NO regrets about basicly leaving brushed motors in my past... However I do not in anyway shape or form belive that brushless will somehow totaly equalize RC car racing... Basicly all brushless really does, is reduce the amount of maintaince you need to do on your motors (it virtualy eliminates maintaince). However... someday... if not already... people will start tweaking brushless controler parameters, and find ways to make their system work better then the next guys...(or at least suit their needs better)...

Dynos aren't nessasary... A cheap dyno, like a Tekin does almost NOTHING to tell you about your motor's ablity help to make your car go faster, and probably shouldn't even be called a dyno. A good dyno, can help you understand your motors better, but rarely will put you in the winners circle... I don't nessasraly buy the 'track is the best' dyno argument either... The track is NOT a dyno... it adds to many other factors in, and makes it much less usefull for evaluating a motor, then does a real motor dyno. That is not to say that a dyno will tell you how fast you can go on the track... or that a dyno is as important as the track... it's just that a track is not a dyno... and a dyno is not a track...

For 99.999% of all racers... the secret to going faster has little or nothing to do with getting couple watts or two more from a motor.


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## EddieO (Sep 19, 2003)

Wow.....50 page thread and I didn't see any dyno results for brushless motors.....maybe next time put the link to the actual page is it on...

And while you can dyno them....the results are not very accurate....the flywheel dynos are using a formula designed for brushed motors, which calculates the friction of the brushes into them to get torque.....and load dynos will over compensate.

A brushless designed dyno will hit the market within time......and people will buy it.

I've put the brushless stuff on a $15k dyno.....and there is differences....I will admit, its not as great as can be seen in brushed stock or 19t motors...but its still there......and will only get worse as people start figuring out things to do to them......

Don't worry....Novak might start selling OEM teardowns....wait till Joe blow who can buys everything gets a nice pattern wound unit.....basic physics says it will be faster....especially since there are less variables in a brushless motor....

Later EddieO


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## DynoMoHum (Sep 25, 2001)

I even agree with Eddie's last post... 

And actualy... I look forward to winding my own brushless motor someday... the great part is that I won't need a ballancer to do it.


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## pepe (Sep 29, 2001)

DynoMoHum said:


> Wow... For 99.999% of all racers... the secret to going faster has little or nothing to do with getting couple watts or two more from a motor.



​Exactly!​


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## EddieO (Sep 19, 2003)

Dyno's are not necassry at all....

At the Cleveland Indoor Champs.....I had a Turbodyno there.....didn't use it once.

I built Peter Robinson's stock and 19t motors all weekend......he made the A in all three classes....placing 3rd in Stock Touring and 2nd in 19t Touring (he broke in 1/12th scale)......he finished less than 1 second behind the leader in stock....and turned the fastest lap of the main (twice).....and in 19t, he finished second to multi time world champion Matt Francis.....again turning the fastest lap......

Personally....I dislike dynos....and only use them when I am trying to figure out if a motor is messed up.....rarely do I use them to try to make a fast motor, even faster....

The key with stock motors is just building the thing correctly.....lots of people are just lazy and don't put forth the effort (this often shows in other parts of their car besides the motor)........

Later EddieO


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## pepe (Sep 29, 2001)

EddieO said:


> The key with stock motors is just building the thing correctly.....lots of people are just lazy and don't put forth the effort (this often shows in other parts of their car besides the motor)........
> 
> Later EddieO


 
Again, I have to totally agree.


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## dave w 1 (Apr 28, 2005)

I JUST SOLD MY TURBO DYNO i use putnam green and blues and every motor i cut break in and use the same springs maybe id see one motor 80 watts one 82 rpm at 30 amps 12,350 to 12899

so i say to my self why do i have this high dollar piece for weekely stock racing putnam does my motors at big races so off it goes


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## pepe (Sep 29, 2001)

I have a TD45 but I never have carried it to the track,I generally use it to base line my motors,and when I've got a motor that really runs good at the track I will dyno it and save those #'s for reference points.


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## hock (Dec 31, 1998)

i think they should change the name from brushless to RTR racing. In my experence (in the area I live)the racers who don't want to do the motor maintence and run brushless are the same one who just put there race stuff in the closet after a night of racing. 

But as proved with every other class that is suppose to be "cheaper to run" someone will find a way to mess with it to get a advantage and the small amount of growth turns into brusless systemsd being sold in the swap and sell area


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## SuperXRAY (Jul 10, 2002)

I also have to agree with EddieO. I have a Fantom Facts dyno and love it, but only for general information. I rarely have time to swap out 5 or 6 motors at the track and when I'm at home I can try combinations....they don't always work the same on a track, though. It gets me in the ballpark, but the last stock motor I rebuilt took me a couple hours to get right and it still isn't complete, but it is fast enough to keep running with the other fast guys at our local track. It takes time and patience to build/improve motors...and a dyno doesn't do the work for you, period.


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## SuperXRAY (Jul 10, 2002)

DynoMoHum,

You will need a balancer to do it right. Regardless of how you wind it, a finished product cannot be balanced unless you balance it. Variances in wire diameter, variances in patterns, the linear distance from the arms centerpoint to any specific point on the wind, etc etc etc. Regardless of how much care is taken, to make it run efficiently, it will have to be balanced.

<END response to DynoMoHum>

Not specifically for DynoMoHum,

Why would you need to dyno a brushless? Most good brushless speed controls have RPM settings anyway, as they already have the feedback from the motor. Soon to come will be drive-controlled brushless, which means if you want 10k RPM at full throttle, the motor is going to give you 10k RPM, even if it draws 75% more amps to do it. It will strive to achieve a set rate unless it triggers a load breaker. Wheel chairs already use this technology, and most don't even used brushless motors!


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## EddieO (Sep 19, 2003)

Umm, the windings on a brushless motor don't spin.....they are on the outside......there is no way, nor need to balance them.....the rotor is the only thing that spins....and of course, some form of balance on it would probably be wise....from every motor I have seen, its done internally....

Later EddieO


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## rcman456 (Dec 19, 2005)

Thanks Eddie I was really set on a dyno from the start. Dont get me wrong I dont have anything against brushless I just dont want to update to that sort of system as you are limited to a certain esc to run that motor. 
I like what I have and just want rebuild,tweak, and get to know how to use a dyno for experience and knowledge and probably bug someone on how to use it and if Im correct in using it or not.  
If I dont find a cd td45 Ill have to check the latter one you mentioned. 

If I found a td 30 would that still be upgradable to the 45 from the manufacturer? Do they still offer to update it? 
Also are the printers the same for the td30 and the td45?


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## SJacquez (Sep 28, 2001)

Yes, it can be upgraded. There was a change in the printers, best to ask Competition Electronics.

Steve


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## Kenwood (Oct 18, 2004)

the printer can be used on ANY CE dyno>>>however to work without mods the dyno must be REV level 2.0>>>IE Infrared mod>>

CE can do the infrared mod for $50 OR they will sell you the parts to do it yourself for $25.. Apparently its just some minor soldering of a component involved...the printer itself they sell for $145>>>Which is about as good as Ive seen for it anywhere>>>Its just an HP thermal calculator printer.. 

the 45 upgrade can still be done>>>I dont know what the cost is though..


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## rcman456 (Dec 19, 2005)

Well thank you for the good information. I have a lead to a broken td30a. What is wrong with it I have no clue but I was thinking if the person wants to sell it broken I would jump on it as I would only be sending it in to CE for the 45a upgrade. But would that upgrade consist of trading out boards or just a few little electronic tweaks and cost major bucks to fix the broken unit? 
Anyone have an idea if this would be a good way to go?


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## pepe (Sep 29, 2001)

I would give CE a call and talk to them.


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## rcman456 (Dec 19, 2005)

Even Better Idea. Thank you!


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## DynoMoHum (Sep 25, 2001)

SuperXray...

As EddieO has said... brushless motors have windings that are stationary, and therefore do not need to ballance the part of the motor that has the windings... and the rotor wouldn't be effected by the winding process... so no ballancer would be nessasary to hand wind a brushless motor.

As for dynoing a brushless motor... and the comments about RPM, etc... There are currently some brushless controlers that allow the user to change parameters such as timing, and most likely the trend to offer user configurable firmware for the controlers will continue in the future. It may very well be usefull to a racer to be able to modify the brushless controlers operating parameters, possibly to suit a perticular track, or type of racing. Having a dyno to verify and/or show you what happens to the power output curve after modifying such parameters could be very usefull, or at the least very interesting to some people (like myself). 

Current burshless controlers don't have very good RPM limiters... that is they are rather jerky when they hit the limiter... These limiters are of almost no value in their current state, with the possible exception of maybe trying to create some sort of RPM limited class... but I really don't see much value in such a class, perticularly given the current jerky nature of a brushless system that's bumped up to the RPM limiter. Without RPM limiters... brushless motors, just like brushed motors, turn more RPM with increased timing, or with increased voltage... But really RPM has very little to do with the need or desire to have a dyno for a brushless motor. 

Having a dyno for a brushless motor/system is really much the same as it is for a brushed system... It gives you information about how well your motor/controler are proforming... What you do with that info is up to you... Over time, I think we will find that the need or desire to have a dyno is no differnt wether you run brushless or brushed motors.


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## SuperXRAY (Jul 10, 2002)

Sorry, Eddie...that's what I meant, but doing other things at work while posting got me sidetracked! Thanks for catching, though.


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## SuperXRAY (Jul 10, 2002)

Here's an idea!

As DynoMoHum talks about, and it is true, that brushless systems will become more configurable...what to do about ruled racing? Things like, stock motors, spec, etc. Brushless speed control mfg's should think about producing the control where the firmware to control the timing, rpm, etc of the motor is on a SIM chip like most newer cell phones use. That way, at sanctioned races the tech just puts in a SIM chip and everyone is the same. I'm sure there are many other things to take care of, but you certainly can't trust the racer to configure their own speed control to spec parameters.


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## Kenwood (Oct 18, 2004)

pepe said:


> I would give CE a call and talk to them.


Agreed>>>What I posted was what they gave me last week as a quote for getting mine upgraded with backlighting, IR, case and a front plate...I just cut/paste from the quote...Like I said the 45 upgrade they said they could do>>But did not get into costs>>>Because I already had the 45.. I asked if it could be done because there was one on ebay a week ago that was going for cheap...I was considering buying it and having it upgraded..


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