# OT maybe....do you like Batman costumes?



## Osgood Wickerwood (Jul 11, 2000)

I recently became aware of a forum on Runboards of folks who not only like Batman but are into great movie and comics batsuits and discuss improving them, etc. Some scratchbuild movie batsuits. 

The main forum has other areas of Batman related interests too. Anyhoo,it's BOTB, the Brotherhood Of The Bat. Maybe you already know about them? I don't know an URL if any. 

Os


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

as the person who sculpted the commercially available clooney version rubber batsuit and mask, i dont think ill be doing another unless i get a very high $ commission (btw, dont blame me about how the production versions are.. thats out of my hands)

and um os, the title of this thread sounds an awful lot like "do you like movies about gladiators?"


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## Osgood Wickerwood (Jul 11, 2000)

Hey, what's so sissyfied about gladiators or Batman? I have a Rubies 'Panther' suit as the guys on BOTB like to call the Clooney one and you mean your sculpt was what Rubies used but changed it? I'm attempting to improve some of the muscle armor. 

I'd wanted a Returns suit but though the seller claimed it was a Keaton, I figured it'd be a Clooney based on the catalog type pic he sent me and I never saw one in person. Most of the guys have Keatons it seems. I settled for a Clooney b/c maybe older Keaton batsuits may be getting rotten. 

Os


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## Darknight (Dec 1, 2004)

"What's sissyfied about Batman?" 

How long have you got?

In fact, for anyone interested in such a discussion, can I recommend Dr. Will Brooker's "Batman Unmasked" - I am reading it now and it is excellent.

Just for the record, I don't think Batman is gay - but some of his fans in the 50s did.

Darknight


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## Osgood Wickerwood (Jul 11, 2000)

A guy showed pics of his replica sculpt of Bale's tunic armor. Looks outstanding! He still needed the back pics of the movie one. It's supposed to be as detailed as the front. It's definetly differnt enough from previous batsuits in a way. 

Os


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## Osgood Wickerwood (Jul 11, 2000)

If Batman's gay,I was never sure about the Superman and Jmmy Olsen stuff LOL! Let's call this thread's title ' Batman impersonators, the Dark Knight Elvises '. 
Os


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

os, if you could post a pic of what you guys call the panther, i'll take the credit or blame for it.... as far as i know, any molded batman suits/chests/etc that rubies manufactured from "batman and robin" were sculpted by me. i also did their "batman forever" cowl (the sonar/antifreeze cowl). as to what i mean by things being out of my hands, its not that they changed anything in the sculpture, but ive seen some castings of parts that i cringe at. (flattened and folded over ears, etc.)


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## Osgood Wickerwood (Jul 11, 2000)

razorwyre, what I understand is the basic, all black Clooney batsuit is nicknamed a Panther suit (by the BOTB guys anyway). No offense, the cowl, belt, gloves and boots of the Rubies Clooney suit are great. Like with other batsuit boot tops, maybe the Clooney ones are a bit short. I just was'nt as thrilled with the blunted muscles tunic armor. 

I can add the trim lines on the cod piece. The leggings on MY batsuit had too subtle muscles but then they may've been flattened for years before I got them. If the tunic redo works, I'll do the leg muscles. 

I have a pic of that lifesize Clooney statue and so I'm trying to make my tunic more like the statue's but the methods I'm trying likely would'nt be good for a person to wear the suit. My batsuit's on amannequin for display purposes only. I'm taking pics of the project to show on a page later. 

Then again, I could fail miserably. I'm told not many have done this on a batsuit. 
Os


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## Osgood Wickerwood (Jul 11, 2000)

BTW, I have the replica Kilmer cowl and boots,real nice. Found them at a thrift shop. I read Morris or Morrisey had the licence for the Halloween rubber batsuits until Clooney's movie when Rubies got it. 

Os


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## Osgood Wickerwood (Jul 11, 2000)

were there bootleg rubber Clooney batsuits? Maybe mine's not a Rubies. Rubies name is not on any of the rubber pieces, only on the black thermal underwear things. 

Os


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

no offense taken. thats part of what i meant by out of my hands. the castings on the armor lose their form the second they take them out of the molds. its simply because that hollow latex isnt the medium for such a thing. if they made it thick enough to hold its shape, it'd be too heavy to wear, and making it out of a flexible foam, which would hold its shape, would be far too expensive for even the high end market. 

as to the history of the licenses, morris costumes had the exclusive license for the first film. morris and collegeville/imagineering both had in for the 2nd. (collegeville may have had it for the first as well, because they had the license for the kiddie dc charater costumes, but i dont recall a first film cowl from them.) then rubies bought collegeville. rubies and morris both had it for 3rd, and rubies had it exclusively for 4th, and presumably for the next one. (although the collegeville keaton and pfiffer cowls are still on the market) (rubies has bought a couple other companies in recent years, and their licenses are negotiated so that their subsidiary companies also are allowed to use the characters, which apparently is a 2 way street). 

i still have the approval letter for my deluxe 2 face mask somewhere because it mentions that tommy lee jones liked my sculpture quite a bit. 

as to bootlegs, i do not know. i do know of at least one guy who was attempting a d.i.y. version, so it might be. i didnt put a copyright notice on the sculpture because they never gave me the exact wording, and that is often done at the factory, so that may be a rubies latex suit. i assume (and i could be wrong here) that as long as the copyright notice is on one part, the cowl for example, then the entire suit is covered. 

i actually had to travel with the sculpture of the clooney cowl to the wb headquarters in burbank for them to check it out in the flesh before the molds were struck! (theres some amusing stories involved with that little trip which i was going to discuss here, but since i am still working for these companies, i'll keep them to myself for the moment.)


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## A Taylor (Jan 1, 1970)

razor-
I know Tommy Lee Jones signed 3 of the deluxe Twoface masks for a friend of mine who worked on a couple of films with him. Of course, he was grumpy when he did it, but I don't think it was because of your sculpt.
Heh.
AT


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## Osgood Wickerwood (Jul 11, 2000)

razorwyre, I'll e mail you pics of my batsuit before the redo started. Half will be sideways though. LMK if that's a Rubies. I read someone had a Clooney suit that had a latex cape. Mine's heavy satin, heavier than any big Dracula cape I've handled. I assume suits came with different capes or places offer various capes to buy separetly. 

Os


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

well at, those were probably the morris versions, sculpted by henry alverez, as the one he liked that i sculpted never made it to the marketplace.

oz, the pics somehow ended up in my brothers email account (possibly because im on his old computer at the moment as mines in the shop) i'll take a look at them as soon as he gets up this evening...


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## Osgood Wickerwood (Jul 11, 2000)

razor, I sent the pics to the homepage link for you. Halloween Brothers. I thought it'd be easier to send pics that way with my webtv.

Os


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

no problem... ok i just saw them and yes thats the rubies suit i sculpted. looking at it again a lot of the forms got flattened and distorted in translation. 

as to the capes i remember morris deluxe cape was satin with rods within it, but ive seen others, including pleather and other materiels.


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## Osgood Wickerwood (Jul 11, 2000)

How do you like the gold on the batsuit? Too much? 

Os


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## Osgood Wickerwood (Jul 11, 2000)

I'll have to take pics for my redo page of my progress on the batsuit redo. Sunday I cut out all the abs and ribs tunic muscles from carpet foam underpadding and Gooped them into place. A guy suggested rubber caulk so today I used it around the foam muscles. Caulk is black. 

Eventually the caulk will allow the foam pieces to blend in so it seems more like a cast piece. I doubt it'll look perfect though. I just hope for an OK effect. Arist acryllic matt varnish will seal the foam for painting. 

If the project's a bust, I'll find a 
Returns suit somewhere, those had nice forms. So did the first Keaton ones.

Os


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

i kinda wish youd have started this thread before starting on your redo.... i might have been able to steer you into some other techniques. as to the gold, its fine. 

in my own defense, the suit was sculpted while the film was in production, and warner brothers starved me for reference materiel. while the batman films are in production warners is very very tight with their secrecy, to the point of paranoia. to give you an idea, there i was at warners with my sculpt for the cowl, (by the way it was a 2000+ mile trip for them to do so), in an office where they had just given me the first good photos i had of clooneys original cowls. we're comparing my sculpt to the pics and i point out that the bat-shop is nearby, and we'd be far better off setting my sculpt next to one of the real things and analyzing the differences in 3-d. they told me i wasnt authorized to enter the bat-shop. (i really wanted to retort that the 7 figures rubies had paid wb for the advance on the license sure as hell authorized me, bit i thought it best not to get argumentative with someone who could make my life hell with redo after redos.) to give you an idea of how bad my reference materiels were, for the robin mask piece, they had simply dropped one of o donnels appliances onto the bed of a zerox machine, hit "copy", and sent that to me! it wasnt until i was standing there in the warner offices with my sculpture of it that i was handed a photo of odonnell actually wearing the thing, at which time we discovered i had sculpted the thing on the life mask upside down! (if you look at the masks shape divorced from the face, without knowing better, youd think that upside down is the proper orientation).

a grapevine story to futher illustrate the point. steve wang sculpted keatons second costume. he also sculpted the horizon model kit of batman from the second film. when he contacted warner to get photos of keaton wearing it as reference for the kit, he was told he wasnt authorized to see them... dispite the fact that he sculpted the suit keaton had on his back in those photos!


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## Osgood Wickerwood (Jul 11, 2000)

that's amazing stuff! I suppose the WB movie prepaint figures had the needed reference. 

I read that the Robin suits were pretty good though, better than the Kilmer or Clooney Batman suits, I don't know which. In quality I guess. 

BTW, I think Kilmers main batsuit (the one he wears most of the movie) is the same sculpt design Clooney has. Clooney's ice suit has the same cowl design of Kilmer's later suit. 

Os


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## Osgood Wickerwood (Jul 11, 2000)

razor, as to bette redo methods, te way I'm doing it is the easiest for ME. I suppose some would cast new rubber items and glue them onto the suit but I would never try casting rubber things. I've never cast a garage kit. 

I made plaster molds ages ago a couple times for puppet stuff but it's too much work. Sculpting the pieces I'd rather try though. I've moved clay around. I have no intention of wearing a batsuit anyway. I'm 315 lbs at 6 feet tall. 

Os


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

well i wasnt going to suggest anything as elaborate as recasting parts. 

who gets what reference stuff depends on the company and its relation to the studio (kenner has an office within wb itself), and how much the company itself cares. the studios themselves vary wildly in their level of co-operation. in the case of the coldcast figures, they were wb products, so being in house i imagine they had full access.

btw, i did the robin too.


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

Who will have the license for the upcoming film?


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## Osgood Wickerwood (Jul 11, 2000)

Zorro, I'd think Rubies will get costume replica rights but as far as models, who knows? razor, I wondered what tecniques you thought proper to redo a Rubies Clooney suit? Just curious. 

I know one standard tecnique of reinforcing a Keaton batsuit padding the inside back of the suit's hollows with layers of liquid latex and gauze bandage. I don't know if many bought a Clooney one. I read of only ONE guy who reworked a Clooney that ended up really great. 

I wish I had a lifesize statue of Keaton in the Returns suit (never made) or the Clooney one. I saw a pic of a man in a Keaton batsuit he painted GREY to reflect the comics.

Os


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

zorro, it will definatly be rubies. theyve had it, as well as all the dc characters for years (theyve also got most of the film licenses worth having)

os, that was one technique, with an addditional step: first stuff it with shredded paper and get it into the proper shape with that. using plaster bandage, make a thin shell jacket mold for it. remove the paper, then reinforce the inside with your latex and gauxe (or latex and loose weave burlap). once youre finished reinforcing, tear off the plaster bandage. 

what i was going to suggest is getting several yards of 1/8 inch thick polyfoam padding. (this is kind of rare and you'll have to hit the bet to find it, but its ouit there... but that thinness is crucial to this working.) you then start gluing in the foam (using 3m 77 aresol adhesive) in strips cut into shapes that will make the latex resume its original shape (the plaster bandage shell isnt neccessary for this, but would be helpful).

i once recieved a henry alverez elvira life size waist up figure, cast in latex. she was cast in latex at a thickness which would have been fine for a mask, but was way to thin for something of that size. after a few experiments and after hearing seeing some pretty warped elviras filled by others, used that plaster bandage shell technique, and reinforced her to 3/8" thick with moldmakers burlap and latex. it worked great, and would not have worked without that thin shell over her.

source for plaster bandage: davis dental supply, north hollywood, ca
source for moldmakers burlap: sculpture house, ny, ny.

when i get my regular computer back, i'll get you the source for the foam.


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## Osgood Wickerwood (Jul 11, 2000)

Well reinforcig the inside would'nt change the outer look of the suit so I knew stuff had to be used onthe outside. With a model, putty would be shaped to build out the details but with this suit I just had 1/2 inch thick particle carpet foam. 

A sense of roundness of each muscle is achieved by 'beveling' the edges. Not perfect but an OK effect. I tried for a more gradual effect on the two chest foams. I used the caulk to make the lines on the cod piece, over the painted ones I'd previously done. 

Actually, you did a decent job on this suit seeing as you had limited reference. I suppose many artists would'nt have bothered or would've done worse. Funny that the guy doing the Keaton Halloween suits must've had more reference unless they were done after the movies and merchandise came out. 

Os


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## Osgood Wickerwood (Jul 11, 2000)

I just published the batsuit project page today. The finished suit pics are'nt there but you should get the idea. http://community-2.webtv.net/modelart/BATSUITBATTYNESS/ 

I should put up a pic of the 1:1 Clooney statue to compare the before and after states with.

Os


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

Osgood Wickerwood said:


> Actually, you did a decent job on this suit seeing as you had limited reference. I suppose many artists would'nt have bothered or would've done worse. Funny that the guy doing the Keaton Halloween suits must've had more reference unless they were done after the movies and merchandise came out.
> 
> Os


ok you can reshape the skin with the foam, but thats another thing...

well, regarding the suit, the reason i did it was an ongoing relationship with rubies... in other words, the money. ive had to work with less than great reference materiel often, and its quite frustrating. very often i dont have contact with the studio or production itself, so i cant ask questions, or for more or beter reference. (the very best experiece i had was with disney on some nightmare before christmas stuff. very much a 2 way street. very strict, but very unambiguous about what they wanted)

as to the keaton suits, the first commercial one by morris was done by ed edmonds of distortions, and was, to be honest, a much simpler form. also i think the studio was more co-operative and cared more about the merchandise. the second keaton morris suit was prototyped by henry alverez, who is a wax museum sculptor in the l.a. area and has done a great deal of film work, including weller's robocop armor. steve wang sculpted the actual suit for the film, and id be amazed if they dont know one another. i dont know who did the collegeville cowls and armor parts, but those are the best of the lot, sculpturally.


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## Osgood Wickerwood (Jul 11, 2000)

I saw close ups of a fanboy made Clooney tunic, I saw that it was more involved than what I could see in the full page size pic of the lifesize statue. 

The Bale tunic is in some ways a Robocop version of Keaton's first tunic! There's at least one guy making one already I saw pics of. 

Os


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

Osgood Wickerwood said:


> I saw close ups of a fanboy made Clooney tunic, I saw that it was more involved than what I could see in the full page size pic of the lifesize statue.
> 
> The Bale tunic is in some ways a Robocop version of Keaton's first tunic! There's at least one guy making one already I saw pics of.
> 
> Os


well i was of the understanding that the clooney figure was from the original suit molds. there was also a kilmer, which was definatly from those molds, but i dont think it ever made the market.

by the way, when i was in l.a. i was told how clooneys suit was molded, which was pretty facinating, i'll relay the full storey later, but the only seams in the suit were running down the back, where the cape would hide them.


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## Osgood Wickerwood (Jul 11, 2000)

Had a disappointment using the rubber cauking. Last I used it,I needed to leave a smooth surface. Would'nt work. I thought about adding caulk remover to thin the next layer so it'd leave a smooth surface. 

A guy suggested hot water, have the spackle knife, etc wet with it. I tried hot water without the remover and EUREKA, it worked! Then several hours later it looked terrible. Seems no way to make it look smooth. 

I now have a solution: I'll forget the caulking stuff and do a specific thing that'll give an enhanced armor concept to the muscles idea. It's impossible to describe, you'd have to see it. Even if I could smooth the caulking, it would just be a generic looking armor INSPIRED by Clooney's. Look good enough though. 

Os


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## Osgood Wickerwood (Jul 11, 2000)

razor, how can I get a larger Kilmer sonar cowl? Your Clooney is a bit larger, maybe more and fits my mannequin. The Rubies sonar one I have is too tight probably and could damage the cowl in time maybe. Were there bigger sonars? 

Os


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

i was afraid of that with the caulking.........

alas oz, i no longer have the molds for the sonar cowl. latex shrinks anywhere from about 6 to 10 percent as it dries. when a commercial mask is prototyped, the designer provides the manufacturer with a foam filled copy to strike their molds from. somtimes the manufacturer will use that master copy, strike a new master mold, then make a few more masters, so to mask suffers a second generation of shinkage. for something like the cowl, too tight is actually better than too large, and i as the sculptor have to guesstimate with the shrinkage.

most people would be mortified to learn that the molds for most movie monster masks, appliances, etc. (the actually filming copies) are destroyed shortly after the shoot unless the artist is pretty sure hes going to use them again. its simply a problem of storage. i kept most of mine, and my garage was FULL at the time i sold the home (you had to open the big car door because you could no longer use the regular door due to the several laters of molds in its way.) when my home was sold, i had to toss most of them. so i only have one copy of the cowl from the master mold, and if i did do a mold from it, the resultant casting would probably be too small.


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## Osgood Wickerwood (Jul 11, 2000)

PLEASE FORGIVE that I did'nt consider how razor might take a page on reworking his sculpt of the Rubies Clooney batsuit. I never thought about it, just was a lifesize modeling project to me. I removed the URL to my batsuit redo page and we'll forget I brought it up. 

DO visit BOTB though, Brotherhood Of The Bat where reworking and having various Batman suits is popular. 

Os


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

?????????????????????? remind me to try to help/inform again......


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## Osgood Wickerwood (Jul 11, 2000)

Well the thing was after I put up pics of my GREATLY reworked batsut, I was certain I'd get x % response. NONE happened. I eventually assumed guys here did'nt respond b/c of respect to you. 

Then again, it might be less than dazzling webtv pic quality and they (if they even did see it) saw the pics, could'nt judge just what I did. 

Someone on another board told me I have every right to change the suit to how I like it. Hope you don't mind. 

Os


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

ok, i see. the comment sort of came off as a swipe at me. of course you have every right to customize it. os, if anybody knows the rubies batsuit needs help, its me! making that suit was one of those situations where i knew it wouldnt come out decently in production, but i knew the client had their heart set on the thing made in that way out of those materiels. ive been in that situation before, just gritted my teeth and told myself "the customer is always right, even when they are wrong!"


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## Osgood Wickerwood (Jul 11, 2000)

I decided to go the route of combining a couple movie batsuits with 'metal plating' added to the tunic and boots. The abs area is now covered with a row of shaped plates. Different than what's shown now. 

I want knee guards but none came with the suit but I guess fan boys make them. The boots will combine the Clooney with Keaton 2 boots plating idea. I even added a row of plates to the cod piece. I guess you'd say it's really a Dark KNIGHT! Likely even the guys at BOTB will think it sucks. 

One or more guys there made custom batsuits where the cowl covers the whole face. Really great and adds the mysterious and creepy flavor. 

Apparently they'd toyed with starting a contest where members design a BOTB Batsuit but NOT with a batsuit they already have. 

These are swell guys, some or more of them know GK kits, are into mannequins but maybe NOT fashion ones. One or more have special mannequins for the express purpose of using super hero and other adventure character costumes on I never knew about. Some have batmobiles but most have sports cars they put bat logos on. Some of them own several types of batsuits and super hero suits. 

Os


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## Osgood Wickerwood (Jul 11, 2000)

It dawned on me that my batsuit redo (not shown on my page yet)is reminiscent of the Keaton car's shields! Hey,if a batcar can have shields, why can't a batsuit? 

Os


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## Osgood Wickerwood (Jul 11, 2000)

My Batman dummy is no longer PC, he sports a ( paintball ) gun in fabric holster. I found that paintball guns look just like REAL ones but have the red noses. 

I was also surprised to learn that real guns are plastic these days! I guess one way to tell is if it has a shell ejecting slot. My paintball one does'nt. It's a copy of a basic size semi automatic Baretta? The kind The Shadow is seen using on the old pulp magazine covers except I guess those are larger. I figure Batman would use one if he used a gun. 

Os


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## Osgood Wickerwood (Jul 11, 2000)

I GAVE UP on accurizing the batsuit with the Kilmer/Clooney muscles. I had the same likelihood of it as building a 1:1 J2....with interior! I'm going with a Returns version as that seems much easier and probable. 

I ripped off all the carpet foam crap except for the chest that needs to stay.

Over time, I can get a Returns cowl from ebay and what not. I'll use a few things of this suit though. Gonna try making an '89 belt and buckle. 

Os


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## Osgood Wickerwood (Jul 11, 2000)

Well, my Returns attempt on this dumb batsuit FAILED too. Except for the belly plates, nothing else looked worth a damned, just thin foam sheeting shapes stuck on the front SUCKY look! 

Razor,please give my regards to WB for the kind assistance they gave you on the sculpting of this Rubies Clooney suit. NO such animal but had a rubber clay existed that could be permanently glued to the suit and sculpted, I'd have had satisfactory success. 

RANT: the new Begins movie.....sure like Batman would have this kind of stuff when he was starting out....BS! It's just a fifth Bat movie period. Don't matter wtf they title it!

Os


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

os, you have a p.m.


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## Osgood Wickerwood (Jul 11, 2000)

I saw a Rubies Clooney rubber one pics that only had been reinforced inside the nooks and crannies with liquid latex and gauze. It seemed to enhance the muscles on the outside AND the legging muscles stood out! I did'nt think it could've looked that way. 
Now I'm trying to peel off all the damned carpet foam and caulking but the results when done are uncertain. Some of it comes of OK while the rest won't and is a bitch. Looks like epoxy was used on some areas too. 

Not sure beefing up the inside would help on THIS suit anyway. Rumor is two Rubies Clooney suits were done, the older one being more accurate. The guy may be confusing it with a Keaton though. 

Os


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

not as far as i know. rubies holds the exclusive license, ive got their catalog sitting here, and the one in the pic is the one i did. he may indeed be thinking of an earlier version. 

yeah i think youre stuck with going back to square 1 and a whole new suit. i'll be amazed if youre able to get that stuff off to your satisfaction and leave the surface smooth enough to pass.


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## Osgood Wickerwood (Jul 11, 2000)

I had an idea that's derived from what you told me a guy did sculpting foam and attaching it to a suit. I could cut out a big piece of 1 inch or more thick of that yellowey furniture sheet foam. 

Make a tracing of where the muscles are on the tunic and draw more accurate muscles on the foam piece. 

Then sculpt it out with an electric carving knife and glue it to the tunic. Some plasti dip and paint and there it is. Do the same for the leggings. I probably won't bother though. 

Os


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

oz, while it worked for monsters like man-thing and the cyclops, that technique isnt goint to work for something smooth like a batsuit. end of story.


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

Osgood Wickerwood said:


> I saw a Rubies Clooney rubber one pics that only had been reinforced inside the nooks and crannies with liquid latex and gauze. It seemed to enhance the muscles on the outside AND the legging muscles stood out! I did'nt think it could've looked that way.


yep thats the way it looked in the molds...... and why sometimes i hate doing things that i know are going to simply not work out in production.


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## woof359 (Apr 27, 2003)

*latex and beer*

not sure who made mine, seems like I had it forever. think mine's a Keaton costume. first the pads and them all that rubber. bad enought putting on at home but taking a pottie break at the bosses home on Holloween and needing muttible trips to the can for a break was murder. And I thought this costume wood be better than my DVader rig, well at least i can see and drink, just not sure that was wise (-:


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## Osgood Wickerwood (Jul 11, 2000)

If your suit's chest emblem has a yellow disc, it's a Keaton. If it's all black but the emblem is sculpted on, it's a Clooney. If the bat emblem is sculpted on but big with no disc, it's a Kilmer. 

Os


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## Osgood Wickerwood (Jul 11, 2000)

correction, if it's a Keaton, the cowl has the chest emblem as part of it. 

Os


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## woof359 (Apr 27, 2003)

*emblem*

the emblem is part of the cowl. its yellow so im hoping its a keaton, hared the last 2 movies. not sure about this new one yet...............


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

woof its a keaton alright. does it have the traditional bat insignia or the 1st movie insignia, where the bat has little feet? if it has the little feet its a morris costumes cowl, manufactured for them by distortions unlimited. if not it then its a 2nd movie version and could either be a morris costumes cowl or a collegeville cowl.


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