# She CAN take the strain Captain!



## H.Erickson (Sep 1, 2005)

I hate seeing models sag under there own weight over the years so for my PL Refit I've taken a new approach. I made a new stand out of steel to help her stand the test of time. I'm planning on going all out with her with interior lighting and exterior flood lights so I'm hoping that she'll last for a while.


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

Building armatures like a filming model.That is a good idea. Should last for years.


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## bccanfield (Nov 17, 2002)

Great Idea. You should sell those.


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## H.Erickson (Sep 1, 2005)

Unfortunately they take to much time, this one took me nine hours to fabricate not including the plotting and scheming that went into it.


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## GLU Sniffah (Apr 15, 2005)

H.Erickson said:


> Unfortunately they take to much time, this one took me nine hours to fabricate not including the plotting and scheming that went into it.


 Well, as anyone should know, the first unit of anything always takes the most time to design, test and fabricate.

I bet if you applied some process engineering to this, you could aquire enough materials and build them in batches in a reasonable enough timeframe to make it financially worth your while.


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## Babaganoosh (Dec 16, 2004)

bccanfield said:


> Great Idea. You should sell those.


My thoughts, exactly!


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## frontline (May 4, 2005)

Babaganoosh said:


> My thoughts, exactly!


Ditto. Id buy one in a NY minute


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

make that another one sold if you started producing them... and i wouldnt be looking to get a bargain on it either.


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## hawk1999 (Jul 9, 2000)

i'll buy two for sure.


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## zysurge (Sep 6, 2002)

Damn, that's awesome. I'd buy one. 

If youdon't produce them, maybe you could share your drawings / plans?

Eric


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

I'll echo everyone else's comments about producing one of these. I'd purchase two, that's for sure!


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## frontline (May 4, 2005)

zysurge said:


> If youdon't produce them, maybe you could share your drawings / plans?


That would probably work for me as well. But what sort of metal working skills does one need to produce something like this?


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

I can tell you from experience that I have NO metal working skills.

Dad was a very skilled machinist/metalworker, but, well....


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## Prince of Styrene II (Feb 28, 2000)

Griffworks said:


> I'll echo everyone else's comments about producing one of these.


Double echo.


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## KUROK (Feb 2, 2004)

Very smart. No one likes droopy nacelles.
I'd buy one!


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## H.Erickson (Sep 1, 2005)

I had no idea that it would generate such interest. I was hoping that it would just be good inspiration. I hadn't thought of actually producing these things though taking GLU Sniffah's advice I'll contemplate trying to fabricate a jig so that I perhaps can produce some more. Time for me is the problem as I'm a full time student with a family but I'll see what I can do.
In the meantime for those like Sysurge, I'd be willing to help anyone with fabricating one themselves and post the schematic that I used. To make one you'll need access to the following:
-A mig welder (easiest to use)
-An angle grinder
-A bit grinder (or dremel tool)
-A metal band saw or a sawzall w/metal cutting blades
-A drill press or just a drill
-A torch (in case something warps)

As far as assembly goes it's not much differant then scratchbuilding or building a model, you take your time and keep fitting things and checking angles as you go. Instead of glueing styrene your welding steel, and instead of sanding you're grinding or using a dremel (for finish grinding). Also keep in mind that you can't weld anything within the model, you have to weld, cool, fit, weld, cool, fit. If you try and use the model itself to set angles while you're welding, slag/spatter will make your ship look like it went through a meteor shower with no deflector dish. Using the nacelle struts as an example you mount the secondary hull on the stand and then lay the steel strut supports in the strut of the model itself and mark where it comes in contact with the base. Remove everything from the model and "Tack weld" the strut piece to the base. Tack welds are welding just a very small part (about 1/8th of an inch) of the joint which allows one to bend and twist the part "a little" until the location and angles are right. Fit the part again in the model to make sure that it's right and then finish welding the joint. 
The steel that I used was a three foot rod of half inch tubing (which you use seven inches of) and a three foot piece of 3/4x3/16 flat stock (ripped down to 5/8x3/16). Most hardware stores will have an assortment of steel and I paid like eight bucks for all of the steel used in the stand. Hopefully you guys will be able to make sense of the diagram and the photos and be able to accomplish a stand of your own. I'd also be more then happy to answer questions if anyone needs help.


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## Ohio_Southpaw (Apr 26, 2005)

H.Erickson said:


> Unfortunately they take to much time, this one took me nine hours to fabricate not including the plotting and scheming that went into it.


You've done all the hard work already. You could source them out to a small machine shop to do a production run for you.. 20-30 pieces.. see what price they give.. I'm sure splitting the cost between the individual units plus a nice mark-up for your ingenuity would still be affordable to those who would buy them (me included).


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## H.Erickson (Sep 1, 2005)

"The rest of the story"


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## drewid142 (Apr 23, 2004)

I'd buy two as well!

Post the plans if you don't think you'll seel copies! GREAT WORK!


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## H.Erickson (Sep 1, 2005)

> You've done all the hard work already. You could source them out to a small machine shop to do a production run for you.. 20-30 pieces.. see what price they give.. I'm sure splitting the cost between the individual units plus a nice mark-up for your ingenuity would still be affordable to those who would buy them (me included).



I know of a few metal shops in my area and I'll check into whats involved and see what happens.


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## Y3a (Jan 18, 2001)

FYI - Sell them for 8-12 times the cost to produce. make at least 25 of them. 

I'm planning the same kind of thing for my Studio scale Jupiter 2's landing gear legs and feet.


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## Lou Dalmaso (Jul 13, 2004)

*keeping a stiff upper nacelle*

I'd buy one if you made them available. do you know anybody who could cast them in aluminum? or would that end up being too soft?


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## Babaganoosh (Dec 16, 2004)

Han, get a patent, fast!

Also, look up someone to make them for you. I'm sure they don't have to be iron or whatever, maybe something cheaper like tube aluminum and commission someone to make them for you after you've been paid by everyone who wants them.

Maybe the whole thing can be modular and just make individual pieces and drill holes where people can put a nut and bolt to attach them with a little thread lock?


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## Nova Designs (Oct 10, 2000)

Hell, I have some metal working skills and a freind of mine has the tools. Sell me you plans and I'll make my own!


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## GLU Sniffah (Apr 15, 2005)

Babaganoosh said:


> Han, get a patent, fast!
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe the whole thing can be modular and just make individual pieces and drill holes where people can put a nut and bolt to attach them with a little thread lock?


 Erector-set style? I like that. It would allow flexibility for different 'official' Starship Classes as well as the custom Kit-Bash stuff.


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## El Gato (Jul 15, 2000)

Count me in, too! That design is pretty neat!

José


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## H.Erickson (Sep 1, 2005)

I've started working on plans for an assembly jig using the original as a template so in a week or two I'll be able to have some manufactured. At present I'm thinking that I can produce three or four of them a week so you guys might have to wait a few weeks before I can get one to you.



> do you know anybody who could cast them in aluminum? or would that end up being too soft?


 Aluminium is "real" finicky to weld and to cast a piece like this would be to difficult as well as not being strong enough. Aluminium tubing thin enough to be used in the strongback/saucer wouldn't be strong enough where it attaches to the base in the secondary hull. I am going to look into bar stock aluminium though.



> Maybe the whole thing can be modular and just make individual pieces and drill holes where people can put a nut and bolt to attach them with a little thread lock?


 This would add a lot more fabrication (and cost if manufactured). For any other kitbashes I would think that one would almost have to fabricate something suited for the application. 



> You could source them out to a small machine shop to do a production run for you


 This would be ideal, only the tolerances are very tight for the armature to not only fit in the model but also be able to provide the necessary support in all of the right places. I have some concerns that a machine shop slapping them together might still make it necessary to do necessary finish grinding and to test fit each armature. 

I'll keep a scheeming and a plotting and we'll all see what transpires and the advice is VERY SINCERELY appreciated and I don't wish to inadvertantly offend anyone.


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## Quintillus (Jul 2, 2002)

Nova Designs said:


> Hell, I have some metal working skills and a freind of mine has the tools. Sell me you plans and I'll make my own!


I have the skills, tools, and material. If you're looking at over $100 for the stand built, I'd pay $15-25 for the plans to make the jig, a set of 1:1 scale drawings of the metal pieces, and comprehensive directions for installation.

I'd pay $5 for the jig plans and cut list.


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## H.Erickson (Sep 1, 2005)

Well I have some better news today, I found a local metal fabricator who has the ability to precision laser cut steel parts and build these armatures. He acted as though reproducing these armatures wasn't going to be a big deal, which I'm hoping will translate into a lot of savings for all of us. What's also nice is that I won't have to take the time to fabricate more of these on my own. I'll be receiving a qoute in the next day or two for thirty armatures.
I'll also see about transfering the rest of the plans from my head to paper for you guys who just want to try and build one on your own. Also please forgive me for being so new at all of this.
Again Thanks for all of the advice guys!


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## mechinyun (Feb 23, 2004)

IM definately in for one!!!


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## Boxster (Aug 11, 2005)

I am interested at well. I saw some saggy Refits and its not a pretty sight.

B


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## Spellbinder99 (May 19, 2000)

Is this reinforcement only necessary if lighting is added? My test build kit has been together for six months now and there is no sight of sagging in the nacelles or in the dish to neck joint, so I was wondering whether it is the added weight of light units and such that causes any sagging?

Nice work on the support and a lovely piece of design work, but I personally haven't seen any need for it so far. I can still pick up the whole model just holding the front lip of the dish or by holding the extreme ends of the nacelles and nothing creaks or moves.
Your mileage may vary depending on how securely the kit is glued together.

I feel I must be missing something.

Cheers

Tony


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## Boxster (Aug 11, 2005)

Oh it will sag, given more time you will notice! Even on my Ertl Refits, I will reinforce the pylon and saucer joint with brass plate.

Forgive my ignorance, but Oman is usually pretty hot there isn't it? Hot climate place is a good testing ground for this kit, ... with lightings.

B


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## Pwesty (Aug 30, 2002)

Count me in 2. I what one of thoes.!


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## H.Erickson (Sep 1, 2005)

Hey Guys, I'm still waiting on qoutes from the machine shops and I'll let you know what happens just as soon as I know. They won't be a hundred bucks for one either (hopefully a lot less). Also as soon as I finish a more detailed schematic I'll be offering them to anyone for $10+shipping. They might also be a little while as well as the machinist kept the original armature for measurements. Thanks for your patience.


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## Warped9 (Sep 12, 2003)

H.Erickson said:


> I hate seeing models sag under there own weight over the years so for my PL Refit I've taken a new approach. I made a new stand out of steel to help her stand the test of time. I'm planning on going all out with her with interior lighting and exterior flood lights so I'm hoping that she'll last for a while.


Great idea! I'd definitely buy one.


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## spe130 (Apr 13, 2004)

Hmm...My SE Ertlprise never sagged, even 10 years after being built. Of course, at that point one nacelle strut sheared off right at the strongback for no apparent reason...


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## WarpCore Breach (Apr 27, 2005)

That is an awesome armature design! If the price isn't too high, I'd love 2 of those myself!

Failing that, I hope you would make the plans available in some way. Just what the Engineer ordered!


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## H.Erickson (Sep 1, 2005)

Well the verdict is in. I received my estimates back today and they will be selling for $65.00 plus shipping and handling. The production models will actually be a little nicer then the one pictured as all of the new one's will be laser cut from 3/16inch steel plate and actually have less welds in them. The nacelle supports will be cut as a part of the base and then heated and folded up in a jig instead of welded on (pretty darn impressive). Also the saucer support will be laser cut as one piece (instead of three individual pieces welded together) and then attached to the base. It will be a lot cleaner looking though you guys will have to prime and paint them. The fabricator wanted an additional $5.20 per unit to paint them.
Also because I am in school and don't have the resources to pay for all of these in advance they will be manufactured as you guys order them so there will be a three to four week wait for me to get them to you after you pay for them (sorry). The fabricator was generous enough to understand my situation (as a student w/a family) and agreed to manufacture them in this fashion (so once a week I'll be putting an order in). I just can't afford well over a grand to slap down on the table for a production run. 
Anyway, there they are. Let me know what you think and if you still want them and THANKS for your patience.


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## drewid142 (Apr 23, 2004)

Just tell me where to send the check! I want 2 of them!


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## H.Erickson (Sep 1, 2005)

I suppose I should have added that information...  I can be e-mailed at [email protected] Once I have your shipping address I can calculate your shipping and get back to you. Also I've been in need of some extra PL 1/350 scale TMP Era shuttle craft so anyone who doesn't plan on using there's I'll give a $3 discount on the armatures.


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## Ignatz (Jun 20, 2000)

Hey that's pretty nice! Nice price too.


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## El Gato (Jul 15, 2000)

I'm the lead candidate for a job, so to celebrate I'm getting an armature! Expect an e-mail from me this evening. Thanks for doing all of this!

José


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## H.Erickson (Sep 1, 2005)

I also forgot to mention that I'm having the fabricator fabricate one armature based off of his computer computations to be fitted to be sure that everything is going to fit before the first order is knocked out. That way if something is off he can make the corrections in his computer design so the rest will be correct.
Again Thanks guys for all of your help and advice. Especially Lou!


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

:thumbsup: Me too, as soon as I get the $$$ Thanks !!! :wave:


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## EvilWays (Jul 21, 2004)

About the only thing I could see as a potential mod for this would be to allow for the part that would go into a display base to be mounted so that the "display base mount piece" would be able to come out the side of the secondary hull (kind of like the studio model setup) so that the bottom of the hull can be displayed.

I'd still buy a few anyways...I just wish this was available years ago with my ERTL-prises since I always had issues with the warp engine pylons.


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## H.Erickson (Sep 1, 2005)

> About the only thing I could see as a potential mod for this would be to allow for the part that would go into a display base to be mounted so that the "display base mount piece" would be able to come out the side of the secondary hull (kind of like the studio model setup) so that the bottom of the hull can be displayed.


That's an very interesting idea, I hadn't thought of that.



> I just wish this was available years ago with my ERTL-prises since I always had issues with the warp engine pylons.


I agree, I haven't got around to it yet though I'm planning on fabricating something for an OL' Smoothie project that I'm working on using 1/8inch steel plate.


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## H.Erickson (Sep 1, 2005)

My apologies with the wait guys, I'm still waiting on the prototype which I should have any day now. Once I'm sure they'll work I'll start submitting the orders. I'll also post photos of the prototype so everyone will know what to expect.
Also I've got a smoothie that I'm going all out with and I will be creating an armature for it. Would this be something that you guys might be interested in? If you are I'll be keeping that in mind when I make it, otherwise I'm just going to throw something together that'll do the job and be done with it.

AGAIN, Thanks for all of the advice.


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## H.Erickson (Sep 1, 2005)

I got the laser cut prototype today (actually prototypes, as they made two of them). They are fairly impressive as they are only three pieces with two welds each in them.
The computer schematics were off a bit so I need to figure out the necessary corrections and then they'll start running off the production pieces.
Thanks for your patience everyone  .


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## Nova Designs (Oct 10, 2000)

Its looking nice!


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

Sweet.


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## edwhitefire (Jan 23, 2004)

Count me in! I want 2 of them as well! (Probably won't be until after X-mas through... gotta have some $$ for presents first before buying more presents for myself.)


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## EvilWays (Jul 21, 2004)

I'd definately be interested in a few.


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## H.Erickson (Sep 1, 2005)

All of the computer corrections have been made and I finished the test fitting with one of the prototypes that was corrected and that all future models will be based off of.
All I can say is "Look Mom! No Hands! (or Glue)!"


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## spe130 (Apr 13, 2004)

What kind of a cost are we looking at here?


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## Nova Designs (Oct 10, 2000)

Here ya go...



H.Erickson said:


> Well the verdict is in. I received my estimates back today and they will be selling for $65.00 plus shipping and handling.


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## Refit (Oct 24, 2005)

Hello :wave:,

I'm new to the forum, so I wanted to take this opportunity to introduce myself, and to let everyone know _exactly_ what kind of person is Han Erickson. But first, a little background....

On June 17th, 2005 I lost my job. Due to the "circumstances" under which I left, I was denied unemployment insurance benefits. I live in northern New York State, about 35 miles from the U.S./Canadian border. There is very little in the way of industry here. So, the past five months have been rather rough going.

In anticipation of new employment, when Han announced his armature, I immediately fired off an email to him reguarding my interest in it. As fate would have it, I'm still waiting for the phone call to report to work.

Han sent me an email to let me know that if I wanted an armature, I should send the payment, as he needed the funds to be able to place the order with his manufacturer. I was, at this time, forced to tell him that I couldn't afford the armature right now and why, and not to wait for _me_, to place his order.

And, do you know what he did? He emailed me back to say that he was sending me one of his prototypes (free of charge, no less), and writes "Merry Christmas"! I could/can hardly believe it. I didn't think that there were people left in the world like this man. Kindness and generosity are alive and well _this_ holiday season, to be sure!

So, I would just like to say, where all can hear (read); Thank you Han Erickson! I _will_ have a "Merry Christmas", thanks very much to _you_. And, by heavens, you do the _same_!


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## CaptFrank (Jan 29, 2005)

cool.


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## F91 (Mar 3, 2002)

That's awesome! The Christmas spirit lives.
I'm going to need one of these now too!


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## SteveR (Aug 7, 2005)

Well done, Han! :thumbsup:


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## El Gato (Jul 15, 2000)

Coolness! That's a great gesture, Han :thumbsup:

José


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## H.Erickson (Sep 1, 2005)

Hey Everyone, just wanted to update the guys who have armatures ordered that I'm expecting them by the end of the week and will be shipping them out shortly afterward, just as soon as I have the directions finished up.


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## Richard Compton (Nov 21, 2000)

This is a cool idea/project. I'm not in the market for one, but just wanted to add my support (pun intended).

....I was reading through the thread and got to Refit's post, the way it started off, I thought "oh no..." expecting some awful story, but was delighted to hear how great a guy he is. Merry Christmas!


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## Refit (Oct 24, 2005)

Richard Compton said:


> This is a cool idea/project. I'm not in the market for one, but just wanted to add my support (pun intended).
> 
> ....I was reading through the thread and got to Refit's post, the way it started off, I thought "oh no..." expecting some awful story, but was delighted to hear how great a guy he is. Merry Christmas!


I gave the posts composition some thought, I admit. My first inclination was to simply tell what a great guy Han is. But, upon further reflection, I thought that perhaps more people would be inclined to read the entire post if I was to give it a hint of excitement and portent.

It's gratifying to learn that my "set up" served to pull people in! :devil:

I liken it to the proverbial, impending "car crash"; it might be a terrible thing to witness, but people just can't bring themselves to look away!


Wayne


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## tetsujin (Dec 12, 2005)

This armature is seriously tempting... It's frustrating sometimes to know that my ability to make a good model is sometimes dependent upon others' efforts, (feels like "cheating" in a way...) and that the result also increases the cost of the kit - but I think my interests are much better served by buying the armature than trying to learn to create something comparable right now. Certainly I'll have enough work to do in building and lighting the PL refit without learning to weld...

Any word on modifying the base to allow plugging into the stand rather than having it permanently mounted? (Seems maybe as simple as sawing off that tube at the bottom and plugging into that, eh? Though it might be more useful to have the connection to the base keyed so the ship won't swivel around too much...)

Anyway, looks awesome. I think it'll be a great enhancement to my PL refit.

*(EDIT)*: Oh yeah, I forgot to ask - how much does the armature weigh?


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## H.Erickson (Sep 1, 2005)

> ....I was reading through the thread and got to Refit's post, the way it started off, I thought "oh no..." expecting some awful story


Yah, It scaried me too. I was like Oh No! now what did I do (or not do).




> Any word on modifying the base to allow plugging into the stand rather than having it permanently mounted? (Seems maybe as simple as sawing off that tube at the bottom and plugging into that, eh? Though it might be more useful to have the connection to the base keyed so the ship won't swivel around too much...)



Ideally I always shoot for a detachable stand but the size and weight of the PL Refit made doing so really difficult. If one wasn't planning on lighting the model or didn't mind feeding power in a different way, one could just saw off the stand flush with the bottom of the hull and glue (or weld) in some tubing (plastic or steel) that's the same diameter as the inside of the stand tubing so that it's sticking out past the top about an inch. Then one could just plug the stand in. Personally I'm not aware of any electrical connections/plugs that could be mounted in the tubing and still be strong enough to stand up to the weight/balance stresses or any potential abuse. Though I'm always open to inspiration.

(Edit):They weigh about 8 to 12 ounces.


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## tetsujin (Dec 12, 2005)

H.Erickson said:


> Ideally I always shoot for a detachable stand but the size and weight of the PL Refit made doing so really difficult. If one wasn't planning on lighting the model or didn't mind feeding power in a different way, one could just saw off the stand flush with the bottom of the hull and glue (or weld) in some tubing (plastic or steel) that's the same diameter as the inside of the stand tubing so that it's sticking out past the top about an inch. Then one could just plug the stand in. Personally I'm not aware of any electrical connections/plugs that could be mounted in the tubing and still be strong enough to stand up to the weight/balance stresses or any potential abuse. Though I'm always open to inspiration.
> 
> (Edit):They weigh about 8 to 12 ounces.


Yah, in the end I'd rather have it well-mounted in a permanent way than poorly mounted but modular... But if I can get both that's keen, too. (I build Gundam kits and I think Gundam builders sort of build this mindset where they expect model parts to be modular to some degree... We're sort of a gimmick-happy bunch IMO.) I was thinking of mounting my power connection adjacent to the tube, rather than inside, if I do the cut-off idea. (Only real problem with that is there's nothing to keep the model from spinning on its base in that case...) I suppose another option (if one were so inclined and able to properly center things) would be a coaxial power connector near the top end of the tube, so the inner tube would slide in and its power connector would plug in there... That way the stand would have enough contact area to properly support things, but the power connector would still be happy inside the model... But the weight would have to be on the structure and not on the power connector. If I'm feeling brave maybe I'll cut the bottom support of the frame and try it. I'll have to really consider whether it's a good idea, though.


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## xr4sam (Dec 9, 1999)

Okay, I musta mised something...How much are the armatures gonna be? I am SORELY tempted...as soon as the paychecks start coming in...


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## tetsujin (Dec 12, 2005)

xr4sam said:


> Okay, I musta mised something...How much are the armatures gonna be? I am SORELY tempted...as soon as the paychecks start coming in...


I didn't see it right away either. It's on page 3.



H.Erickson said:


> I received my estimates back today and they will be selling for $65.00 plus shipping and handling.


I want to avoid using too many third-party refinements to the kit, but I think I'll have to get one of these for sure.


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## H.Erickson (Sep 1, 2005)

Hey Guys! Latest news flash for all of you guys waiting for your armatures (from the first order). There in, but they won't be going out until Saturday. The guy doing the assembly work didn't get the message that the hole at the top of the stand tube was to be left open and welded them all shut. So I'm told that they will all be ready either tonight or tomorrow after they've been corrected.

Thanks for your patience everyone!


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

Out of curiosity.... 
Are these supports still for sale ? I may be inclined to buy one here in the near future.
Thanks ,
Jim  :thumbsup:


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## frontline (May 4, 2005)

My thoughts as well. Now that the holidays are over, Id be interesting in purchasing a kit as well in the near future


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## H.Erickson (Sep 1, 2005)

> Are these supports still for sale ?


 The armatures will be available for some time to come. After this first order gets shipped out Steve over at CultTvMan.com will be carrying them there as I simply do not have the time with med school to be dealing with them. As he needs them I will continue supplying them. 
I am also developing an armature for my smoothie refit and if there shows to be any interest in that I'll look into offering it as well.

Also on a deferent note the fabricator didn't have the armatures ready on Sat. so hopefully I'll have them tomorrow (Tues.) and get all of them out to you guys. My Apologies for yet another delay.


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## Babaganoosh (Dec 16, 2004)

I'm suddenly reminded of the exchange between Kirk and McCoy in STTMP; "Well, for a man who swore he'd never return to the Star Fleet..."

Seemed like only days ago Han that you were saying you weren't interested in marketing the supports and look at you now - all entrepeurial and stuff.

Did you remember to get a patent?


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## H.Erickson (Sep 1, 2005)

> I'm suddenly reminded of the exchange between Kirk and McCoy in STTMP; "Well, for a man who swore he'd never return to the Star Fleet..."


 If I remember McCoy's response correctly:"Just a damn minute Admiral sir....you invoked some little know seldom used reserve activation clause...In simpler langauge, I was drafted!"
For a while there I was under the impression that I'd be linched if I didn't somehow make these available. And as Ohio_Southpaw stated:



> You've done all the hard work already. You could source them out to a small machine shop to do a production run for you


 Now that I have this fabricator available, to have anything else replicated isn't such a big deal, and with Steve carrying them making them available the whole venture is manageable.



> Did you remember to get a patent?


I have actually been looking into what's involved with regards patent's, that's another one of my works in progress.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

It's really a shame the people at Unobtainium couldn't have invested $50 a pop in something like that for those 3 foot TOS Enterprises. Then they probably wouldn't have become worthless, twisted piles of resin.  

For those who were lucky enough to even get one.

Who was it here who was just about to finish his wood master of a 1/350th TOS E?

He/we might need your services if he cranks any out in resin.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

tetsujin said:


> This armature is seriously tempting... It's frustrating sometimes to know that my ability to make a good model is sometimes dependent upon others' efforts, (feels like "cheating" in a way...) and that the result also increases the cost of the kit - but I think my interests are much better served by buying the armature than trying to learn to create something comparable right now. Certainly I'll have enough work to do in building and lighting the PL refit without learning to weld...


What a *sellout*!!!

I guess slackers like you even use *store bought* brushes!

Me, I had to chase a damn camel for 9 miles through the desert in 110 degree heat in order to get my last batch of brushes!!!

You kids, always taking the easy way out...


*N.B. I have now officially turned into my father.*


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## Captain April (May 1, 2004)

Brushes? You spoiled prat! I had to make due with bits of my own hair tied to a twig I got from a neighbor's tree!


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## CaptFrank (Jan 29, 2005)

_You had a *twig*?!!_

Lucky guy!


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## Lou Dalmaso (Jul 13, 2004)

*you were lucky*

Ah, we used to WISH we had neighbors...


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## Nova Designs (Oct 10, 2000)

Lou Dalmaso said:


> Ah, we used to WISH we had neighbors...



Well OK....


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## Lou Dalmaso (Jul 13, 2004)

Nova Designs said:


> Well OK....



don't cha mean "Well Gol-ll-eee" ?

:tongue:


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

[Seinfeld voice...]

Not that there is anything wrong with that...

But look at that picture!

How can the same man look so square and so gay all at the same time?... :lol:


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## Nova Designs (Oct 10, 2000)

Chuck_P.R. said:


> [Seinfeld voice...]
> How can the same man look so square and so gay all at the same time?... :lol:



Its a gift!


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

Shame on you!!!

SHAME!!! SHAME!!! SHAME!!!


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

:lol: This forum is just way too much fun :lol:


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## PhilipMarlowe (Jan 23, 2004)

Chuck_P.R. said:


> [Seinfeld voice...]
> 
> Not that there is anything wrong with that...
> 
> ...



The guy on the left looks pretty close!


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## tetsujin (Dec 12, 2005)

Chuck_P.R. said:


> tetsujin said:
> 
> 
> > It's frustrating sometimes to know that my ability to make a good model is sometimes dependent upon others' efforts
> ...


I'm just sayin' - I buy a kit from PL, and get all this stuff online to accurize and improve it - the armature, maybe detail parts, templates, etc... And at the end I have a model built on a lot of other people's work. How much credit for the model still goes to me and how much to these other people?

I know it's pretty silly, as I've not yet built anything completely from scratch, let alone without relying on others' work, but it's actually just a reaction. (And determining that doing everything oneself _is_ a good thing is a whole other matter. As a programmer, for instance, I was taught that code re-use is a goal to aspire for, but in practice and culture programmers tend to value new work much more...) It's just how I was feeling at that particular moment - thinking of trying to build (and do a good job with) the PL refit kit (which itself represents a mountain of someone else's effort to produce) without much in the way of aftermarket parts - and then was suddenly confronted with one I couldn't do without.


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## SteveR (Aug 7, 2005)

The original Enterprise was designed by other people, who built on that work for the refit, then the kit was designed and manufactured by even more people, and you're using tools and materials designed and manufactured by another army of people. You're always enjoying the benefits of others' labor unless you're using a broken stone to carve something (never seen before) out of part of a tree you've found in the bush. And from whom did you learn to carve that thingie? :drunk: 

Just think of the armature as a part of the kit that Thomas (or his team in China) forgot to include in the box. 

Another way of looking at it is as a compromise: sure, you could build the whole thing from scratch, or just cast the accurizing parts, but you might have other things to do with your time. That's why we buy anything that we can make: it allows us to do other things with our time.

Enough blather. Let's build something. Or assemble it. :thumbsup:


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## H.Erickson (Sep 1, 2005)

*The goods have arrived!*

I picked up the armatures (for the first order) today and my wife got them boxed up for me and ready to be shipped out tomorrow morning. A few of them have one minor defect as the assembler got a little over zealous with the grinder leaving a notch at the top of the stand tube. It doesn't affect anything so no one needs to worry with regards to strength or alignment. 

Plus I was sent the wrong boxes! It so hard to find good help these days!


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

tetsujin said:


> I'm just sayin' - I buy a kit from PL, and get all this stuff online to accurize and improve it - the armature, maybe detail parts, templates, etc... And at the end I have a model built on a lot of other people's work. How much credit for the model still goes to me and how much to these other people?
> 
> I know it's pretty silly, as I've not yet built anything completely from scratch, let alone without relying on others' work, but it's actually just a reaction. (And determining that doing everything oneself _is_ a good thing is a whole other matter. As a programmer, for instance, I was taught that code re-use is a goal to aspire for, but in practice and culture programmers tend to value new work much more...) It's just how I was feeling at that particular moment - thinking of trying to build (and do a good job with) the PL refit kit (which itself represents a mountain of someone else's effort to produce) without much in the way of aftermarket parts - and then was suddenly confronted with one I couldn't do without.


As you could probably tell by the tongue-in-cheek tone of my response, I don't see anything particularly noble in re-inventing the wheel.

As SteveR pointed out above, if somebody has taken the time and energy to get something just right, why should you feel guilty about benefiting from their offering to save you the time and headache?

The smartest people don't learn from their own mistakes, the smartest people study what others have done and try to avoid making them in the first place.


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## Krako (Jun 6, 2003)

What a beautiful sight, Han. Can't wait to receive mine!


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## tetsujin (Dec 12, 2005)

H.Erickson said:


> I picked up the armatures (for the first order) today and my wife got them boxed up for me and ready to be shipped out tomorrow morning. A few of them have one minor defect as the assembler got a little over zealous with the grinder leaving a notch at the top of the stand tube. It doesn't affect anything so no one needs to worry with regards to strength or alignment.
> 
> Plus I was sent the wrong boxes! It so hard to find good help these days!


Is it too late to get an order in? Do I need to wait for them to appear on culttvman's site at this point? I'd like to get one.


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## H.Erickson (Sep 1, 2005)

All of the armatures from the first order went out today (including the protoypes). Anyone who has any problems or questions _please_ feel free to email me. If you don't receive yours by the end of next week your armature probably is on the second order which will be going out in a week or two. Also feel free to email me to find out which order yours is on.

Also my apologies for the boxes, they are ridiculously huge as I was shipped the wrong sizes. One could probably fit a Refit in the boxes along with the armatures they're so big.



> Is it too late to get an order in? Do I need to wait for them to appear on culttvman's site at this point? I'd like to get one.


 Regrettably after this second order goes out you'll have to get yours through Steve over at Culttvman.com. With the spring semester starting up next week I just will not have the time to be filling orders (sorry). I haven't even had time to work on any of my models.  You guys are really high maintance.


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## actias (May 19, 2003)

Any chance of being able to purchase a template to make our armatures? To me the most difficult part would be desiging the shape and angle of the supports to fit snuggly inside the model. Hence the need for a template. You've already done the figuring.


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## tetsujin (Dec 12, 2005)

H.Erickson said:


> Regrettably after this second order goes out you'll have to get yours through Steve over at Culttvman.com. With the spring semester starting up next week I just will not have the time to be filling orders (sorry). I haven't even had time to work on any of my models.  You guys are really high maintance.


Sorry to be a nag about it.  I don't need to have mine right away, but I am looking forward to geting it ordered so it'll be taken care of. Do you happen to know about when they'll be available on culttvman's site?


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## H.Erickson (Sep 1, 2005)

> Any chance of being able to purchase a template to make our armatures? To me the most difficult part would be desiging the shape and angle of the supports to fit snuggly inside the model. Hence the need for a template. You've already done the figuring.


 Regrettably I haven't had an oppurtunity to do up any schematics or templates yet, and with the spring semester having started up it might be a while (sorry).



> Sorry to be a nag about it. I don't need to have mine right away, but I am looking forward to geting it ordered so it'll be taken care of. Do you happen to know about when they'll be available on culttvman's site?


I shipped out Steve's armatures with the first order though you'd have to contact him as to when they'll be made available.


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## zysurge (Sep 6, 2002)

I see that they are in Steve's store now:
http://www.culttvman.net/shopping/shopexd.asp?id=397

I wish I'd bought one from Hans when I had the chance. I'm going to have to pay an extra $25 for waiting.  Not that I'm criticizing Steve - he has to make a profit, too after all. Just mad at myself for waiting.

Eric


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## tetsujin (Dec 12, 2005)

zysurge said:


> I see that they are in Steve's store now:
> http://www.culttvman.net/shopping/shopexd.asp?id=397
> 
> I wish I'd bought one from Hans when I had the chance. I'm going to have to pay an extra $25 for waiting.


D'oh!


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## frontline (May 4, 2005)

Ough. Yeah another $25. Damn me not having any money when the time was right


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## Krako (Jun 6, 2003)

Got mine today, Han. I'm very impressed with the armature! I'm amazed at how light it is. The directions are pretty good too, although I'm a bit worried I'll screw something up in getting everything to align just right.

Thanks so much for your work in designing these and in getting them manufactured.


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## Lou Dalmaso (Jul 13, 2004)

*another reason down*

Got my SID yesterday and now there is one less reason to keep on stalling and get to building. gee, thanks :freak: 

Seriously, Great work, Han. I wish you well in your studies and hope the extra pocket change lets you let off steam when you need to

Cheers,
Lou


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## H.Erickson (Sep 1, 2005)

> Seriously, Great work, Han. I wish you well in your studies and hope the extra pocket change lets you let off steam when you need to





> Cheers, Lou


Actually I'm taking your advice and I'm going to try and make wonderfest. I'm also still holding you to that round by the way.


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## H.Erickson (Sep 1, 2005)

Also if you guys that ordered armatures would be kind enough to email me when you receive your armatures I'd be grateful. I just want to be sure everyone gets there's.

Thanks!


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## Lou Dalmaso (Jul 13, 2004)

*great news!*

You bet! Maybe we can start a "support" group..Get it?... support?...Hello? is this thing on? Beuller?..Beuller?..


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## tetsujin (Dec 12, 2005)

Lou Dalmaso said:


> Seriously, Great work, Han. I wish you well in your studies and hope the extra pocket change lets you let off steam when you need to


What he said.

There were some questions raised on starshipmodeler.com about the armatures and maybe we can get some answers...

For instance, the armature supports the nacelle pylon but not the nacelle itself. There was some concern over this due to the fact that the nacelle is long and slightly back-heavy (though my impression was that the top of the pylon was wide enough that, given a stable pylon - provided by the armature - and a good bond to the nacelle, the support would be adequate.) Is this a problem in practice?

I was also wondering about alignment of the supports for the nacelle pylon struts. How good is it in the armature? Will I need to adjust it?

Are the ones on Culttvman's site pre-painted? (IIRC the pre-orders weren't...)

Finally, a lot of folks over at starshipmodeler seemed to question whether the kit even needs an armature. My feeling (not having built the kit yet) is that probably it at least that it can greatly benefit from one and I believe that strongly enough that I'll put down around $100 for the armature, but others seemed to feel that if glued adequately, it could support itself. (But the kit-supplied base has the tripod support, suggesting otherwise...) I was wondering if anybody could share their experiences, one way or the other.


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## Lou Dalmaso (Jul 13, 2004)

the structural integrity device is the most elegant solution I've seen to the predicament of not wanting to use the three point support system that the kit's original stand provides. 

If you don't want to use the clear plastic rods shoved into the bottom of the saucer and the third point of support on the base, then yes, I think the kit does put some undo stress on the neck what with all of that weight from the saucer only being resisted by the skinny glue joints of the neck. that's just the nature of the ship's design. so an internal brace going up thru the center of gravity for the whole kit allows for a single pole mounting system and takes the weight off of that critcal joint. 

the pylons are more likley to "fail" (or droop) at the bottom joint to the rest of the ship than they are at the the top where they join to the engines. so the support helps out at that critical juncture.

is the use of metal overkill as opposed to another material? perhaps. but I imagine Han is only working with what he has the best access to.


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## H.Erickson (Sep 1, 2005)

> For instance, the armature supports the nacelle pylon but not the nacelle itself. There was some concern over this due to the fact that the nacelle is long and slightly back-heavy (though my impression was that the top of the pylon was wide enough that, given a stable pylon - provided by the armature - and a good bond to the nacelle, the support would be adequate.) Is this a problem in practice?


The steel nacelle supports of the armature were aligned to bear the load of the nacelle at roughly the half way point at the center of the nacelle (see picture), right where the support and nacelle come together. Once the nacelle is positioned where one wants it, epoxy or perhaps something along the lines of JB Weld packed inside of the plastic around the steel would "lock" the nacelle in position. Support from front to back along the nacelle is still provided by the nacelle's plastic support which is now receiving additional support from the steel. The whole thing "IS" overkill, but that was the idea from the beginning. Never having to ever worry about it again.



> I was also wondering about alignment of the supports for the nacelle pylon struts. How good is it in the armature? Will I need to adjust it?


 The alignment of the nacelle supports of the armature HAVE to be (with a little bit of muscle) "bent" to place the nacelle in its final location. No two modelers are necessarily alike which after fitting the armature in all of the other necessary locations may place the nacelle supports not quite exactly where you want them. Thus the need for final adjustments and fine tuning.



> Finally, a lot of folks over at starshipmodeler seemed to question whether the kit even needs an armature.


 The kit is very strong, but it is still just styrene. Which over time will begin to distort with a kit of this size and weight (especially if one starts loading it up with lights and stuff). Not to mention that the nacelle supports in stock configuration don't always necessarily align the nacelles where they should be.



> If you don't want to use the clear plastic rods shoved into the bottom of the saucer and the third point of support on the base


 I think Lou summed it up best here. Also there is a reason why this three point stand system is being used by Polar Lights and it does in part have to do with the stresses put on the neck.
Is the armature overkill? Probably. Is it to expensive? Personally after taking into consideration what I wanted to end up with, the time that I'm going to have to invest in its construction, and the desire that I do not wish to be noticing drooping nacelles ten years from know I consider the armature to be insurance.



> Finally, a lot of folks over at starshipmodeler seemed to question whether the kit even needs an armature.


 For all of the afore mentioned reasons given I built the armature, not to market it. I made it available at everyone elses request and I have to believe that there wouldn't have been so much interest in the armature unless there was valid reason for it.

The armatures were not painted as it would have costed an additional $6 per armature to have them painted and I didn't think that was an expense that you guys would have wanted to absorb. Especially since all of you guys are modelers.


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## spe130 (Apr 13, 2004)

H.Erickson said:


> Regrettably I haven't had an oppurtunity to do up any schematics or templates yet, and with the spring semester having started up it might be a while (sorry).


I'd be interested, if you decide to make them available in the future. I'm pretty handy with a welder.


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## El Gato (Jul 15, 2000)

Han, I got m ine today and she's a beaut! Thanks!!

José


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

tetsujin said:


> What he said.
> 
> There were some questions raised on starshipmodeler.com about the armatures and maybe we can get some answers...
> 
> ...


You could rely on the three rickety looking rods that come with the kit(they remind me of the sticks that people on talk shows used to use to spin plates).

To be fair, Polar Lights didn't design them to be very secure. It is your job to make sure nobody ever nudges the kit or stand slightly causing it to fall over - not Polar Light's responsibility.

People saying the armature is "probably" not necessary remind me of people with even less reliable guesses. I sell electronics. Often people will come in with a know-it-all neighbor or friend who tells them "you don't need to get a protection/maintenance plan on that new DLP TV."(that has the spinning color fly wheel that rotates 10,800 times a minute every minute the TV is on!)

I then take out a blank piece of paper and say to their friend, "Okay, do what we'll do, and write that due to your advice, in the event of your friend's TV failing causing it to need repairs, or needing cleaning/realignment or any other service for the next 5 years you will pay for it out of your own pocket and guarantee the work done to factory specs in a timely manner. Oh, and that you'll give them a free loaner TV in the meantime."

To which every single one of them replies "Why the hell should I do that? It's not my TV!"

To which I'm forced to respond, "If you back up the free advice you are giving your friend with absolutely nothing, that is exactly what that advice is worth."

Some people consider such questions to be too brutually honest. But people deserve to hear no nonesense bottom line advice if they are to be protected and adequatly evaluate advice they are giving.

If the know-it-all turns out to be right, at best he's kept a friend. If wrong that buddy wants to know why he ever let him be talked into having a $3000 useless boat anchor that's uneconomical to fix end up in his living room.  

*Advice from people who will pay nothing if their advice turns out to be wrong is worth exactly that - nothing.* 

If someone who is guessing that an armature is "probably" not necessary is wrong, are they going to replace the kit, the supplies, the shipping, the time, effort sweat and love you put into building the thing?

Nope.

Personally it is worth $60 bucks to me just to have a single, strong, reliable connecting point to display the model. Forget about the "guesses"(and that's exactly what they are) as to whether or not it's overkill.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

Heck, if Thomas hasn't already secretly strangled his shuttlecraft-destroying cat, even HE might want to buy one. :lol:

I haven't seen or heard of that cat lately...

Maybe he just waited until the obvious heat of the moment passed and took it out for a joy ride? 

Those Refit E sticks do sort of make the three stick stand look like those cat toy sticks they sell with the suction cup on the bottom and a bell on the top...


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## SteveR (Aug 7, 2005)

Chuck_P.R. said:


> Personally it is worth $60 bucks to me just to have a single, strong, reliable connecting point to display the model. Forget about the "guesses"(and that's exactly what they are) as to whether or not it's overkill.


Given a _proper glue job_, one camp is betting the kit will fail, the other camp is betting it won't. That's all.

Until somebody comes up with a free-body diagram or stress analysis outlining the stresses on the model and its calculated failure modes, _both _ camps are guessing, Chuck.


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## SteveR (Aug 7, 2005)

Chuck_P.R. said:


> *Advice from people who will pay nothing if their advice turns out to be wrong is worth exactly that - nothing.*


... in other words, all advice given on a web forum is worthless.


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## F91 (Mar 3, 2002)

That assumes that all advice that is given on a web forum is wrong...and it's not.



SteveR said:


> ... in other words, all advice given on a web forum is worthless.


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## F91 (Mar 3, 2002)

I was prepared to order a frame and was going to wait until the second batch. If the frame is still avaialble, but at an additional 25$ premium (for what?) I think I'll build my own.


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## H.Erickson (Sep 1, 2005)

> both camps are guessing,


When I originally test fitted my Refit the nacelles were not exactly where they were suppose to be (alignment was off a little) and I personally couldn't except that. Also I've been building starships for fifteen years and have seen (with my own two eyes) nacelles sag over time especially with added weight (ie:lighting hardware). I seriously do not like the looks of the provided stand and I didn't want to invest 80 to 100 hours building my Refit getting it perfect (in my eyes) and then take the "chance" of watching it sag over the next ten years. The armature is constructed of 1/2 inch tube and 3/16 inch plate "steel". Just one of the nacelle supports is capable of supporting the whole model.

I do not believe that I'm guessing anymore if the saucer or either one of the nacelles will be where I left them ten years from now. The armature for me anyway (from the beginning) is "insurance". Anyone else trusting the plastic are the ones who are guessing.

It really simply boils down to a matter of preference, and I "prefered" to play it safe.


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## SteveR (Aug 7, 2005)

F91 said:


> That assumes that all advice that is given on a web forum is wrong...and it's not.


Please read again:



Chuck_P.R. said:


> Advice from people who will pay nothing if their advice turns out to be wrong is worth exactly that - nothing.


... my assumption was that nobody giving advice on a web forum would be _willing to pay _ if their advice turned out to be wrong. Therefore, by Chuck's reasoning combined with my assumption, advice given on a web forum would be worth nothing because it carries no monetary guarantee.

I don't believe advice without a monetary guarantee is worthless, and I also believe that modellers will take whatever advice fits their own experience and makes sense to them. All advice here is given on a "take it or leave it" basis, in my opinion.

Sorry to fan the flames of controversy and waste bandwidth. Mr. Erickson deserves every consideration and he has created a fine product, well worth the price, by the way. I personally apologize to him if I have contributed to any distress.

I'll now exile myself for a week. :wave:


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## H.Erickson (Sep 1, 2005)

> I personally apologize to him if I have contributed to any distress.


No need to apologize, I don't mind a good debate.


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## H.Erickson (Sep 1, 2005)

Also, as it turns out I've ended up with a "few" surplus armatures from order #2. For all of you guys that already pre-ordered for Order #2, it will be here in about two to three weeks and after this order is finished I'll only have time to be taking orders from Steve. If anyone is interested in the extras it will have to be first come first serve, let me know if any of you are interested.


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## F91 (Mar 3, 2002)

Sorry Steve, Wasn't reading too good after several Molson Canadians last night......



SteveR said:


> Please read again:
> 
> 
> ... my assumption was that nobody giving advice on a web forum would be _willing to pay _ if their advice turned out to be wrong. Therefore, by Chuck's reasoning combined with my assumption, advice given on a web forum would be worth nothing because it carries no monetary guarantee.
> ...


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

SteveR said:


> Given a _proper glue job_, one camp is betting the kit will fail, the other camp is betting it won't. That's all.
> 
> Until somebody comes up with a free-body diagram or stress analysis outlining the stresses on the model and its calculated failure modes, _both _camps are guessing, Chuck.


Quite true, I don't dispute that at all.

But I'd like to evaluate what the result of each guess being wrong would be.

The end result of the guess about it "probably" not being needed being wrong is a model that falls apart or sags out of shape, losing a good deal of time, money and materials - not to mention a beloved subject.

The end result of the guess that the armature is needed being wrong is simply that you have spent $60 bucks unnecessarily. But there is no harm done whatsoever.


*N.B. Plus I think there is the added benefit of a single connection point that doesn't obscure the view of the lower saucer and isn't in danger of easily being toppled over. The single point stand to me is an added benefit. But that of course is a seperate point.*


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

SteveR said:


> ... in other words, all advice given on a web forum is worthless.


No. There is little danger in most of the advice given here. The process either works or doesn't work in most cases, or is even self evident on it's face. 

The problem with the particular piece of advice I was referring to is by the time you know the armature should have been used it will be too late to undo the damage.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

SteveR said:


> Please read again:
> 
> 
> ... my assumption was that nobody giving advice on a web forum would be _willing to pay _if their advice turned out to be wrong. Therefore, by Chuck's reasoning combined with my assumption, advice given on a web forum would be worth nothing because it carries no monetary guarantee.
> ...


No need to exile yourself. You make valid points, perhaps I should have been more explicit (although I am rightly often accussed of being way to verbose as it is).

I was talking about situations where advice is disputable one way or the other. 

It's usually not in dispute as to whether or not Squadran Green putty will warp styrene or not - it will.

Or whether or not Easy Off will damage regular styrene - it won't.

Most of the advice here has to do with methods we've already tried and seen through the process. 

This type of advice is different and debatable. 

All I can say is that considering how many hours it will take me(or anyone for that matter) to finish the model(not to mention expense) I would rather err on the side of caution.

Some might call the armature overkill - but if they are wrong by the time you find out they are wrong you're up the proverbial creek.

Whether or not the price of that caution is worth the money to you is something only you can decide.

Plus, as I said earlier, I prefer the look over the look of the three point design - even if fear of what the weight would do to the stress points had absolutely nothing to do with the design - I just like the look of the one point that will allow me to show the underside of the saucer in it's entirety without the holding points in the lower hull or the rods screwing up the view.

But everyone's got the right to their point of view. No need to apologize for it. I just like to think things through and weigh the consequences of one camp being wrong against the consequences of the other camp being wrong.

I'd rather take a chance of having an "overbuilt" model rather then take a chance of ending up with a sagging model.

But that's my own personal opinion, everyone's entitled to disagree or agree here as long as we don't get personal or flame one another.


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## CaptFrank (Jan 29, 2005)

:tongue: Just kidding!


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## Ruckdog (Jan 17, 2006)

Han, I was just over at CultTVMan and noticed that your armature is sold out. I definitely want one, and was wondering if you knew when it would be back in stock.


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## H.Erickson (Sep 1, 2005)

Steve should have a new supply in a week or two. His next batch goes out with the next order (Order #2). I myself now have four additional ones left that I'm trying to get rid of. Also after Order #2 all armatures will have to be purchased through Steve alone, regrettably I just don't have the time to be dealing with a lot of orders (sorry).


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