# How Do You Like To Race?



## KirkWH (Nov 19, 2014)

I've raced with a few different clubs and have experienced a few different ways of racing. The most prevalent has always been the traditional method where each driver gets X amount of time on each lane and once he's driven in each lane his total distance covered is measured against the distance traveled by the other drivers. This form of racing, although enjoyable, doesn't allow for a lot of variation in results. In other words, the fastest cars/drivers will always win. It's great for the few guys at the top who win all the races, but not so much for the guys chasing them week in and week out. It can lead to the guys who never taste success moving on to another hobby.

Another form of racing I've enjoyed is the crash and burn style. Cars are put on the track and when one deslots it is simply out of that heat. Points are awarded for the finishes in each heat, and then the overall winner is determined by adding up the points each driver scored in his heats. This form of racing is more exciting (in my eyes) and produces much more variability in results. Sometimes a big crash can wipe out two or three cars, leaving the slowest car to actually win a heat.

So what do you like and why?


----------



## Paul R (Nov 3, 2009)

I prefer the first method. To me each race is measure against the top guys and I can see my progression and I enjoy the challenge. 

I find Crash and Burn to be a great tool to hone driving skills. Learning to drive within your limits. Our weekly club will run C & B occasionally when we don't have enough guys to marshall.

In both cases, there is not a lot of variation in the results. The top drivers do better because they keep the car on the track more.


----------



## gonegonzo (Jan 18, 2006)

I like both formats . The first "managed racing" I like when there are enough drivers to marshal on down time . There are some requirements I'd like to see in the first format however . 
1. single resister controllers only .

2. All work on car is done on Green .

3. 3 offs per lane and your out .

The second format , "crash and burn" , I like for a small group of racers to eliminate marshaling . We do have a class "Outlaw Modifieds " that we race C&B exclusively . That was started when I didn't have any lap counters on my Oval track . Now ///// we have 2 variations of C&B .

I found it nostalgic working things out and running C&B . That's the most of us did it when we called slot car racing ( Road Rac'n ).

Gonzo


----------



## lynxer (Dec 5, 2014)

Crash and burn for fun, or if running Fairgrounds style non mag cars.

Round robin for everything else!


----------



## KirkWH (Nov 19, 2014)

lynxer said:


> Crash and burn for fun


But isn't it all supposed to be fun? 

My concern is simply in maintaining long term interest in the club. If you have the same four or five guys winning all the races week in and week out, it's going to get old pretty quickly for anybody not in that group. You have four or five racers who spend LOTS of time and money working on their cars, buying parts, tools, etc. while the rest may not have the resources to take it to that level. I'd hate for guys to quit racing because they're essentially priced out of the market. Maybe running crash and burn races where there's a bit more variability in the results will help to maintain interest.

Or, what we can do is run races the NASCAR way. Run 499 laps, say there's a caution, give every driver their lost laps back, and then have a one lap shootout to see who wins.


----------



## Paul R (Nov 3, 2009)

If it's all for fun, why get hung up on whether you win or lose? Just like everything else, what you put in is going to reflected in what you get out. The most critical thing is time. Cost can be controlled by what types of cars you run. In the clubs I race with the top guys are the ones who put in the most time. For them, and myself, this is my hobby. It's what I do for fun. You can have the fastest car out there, but if you can't drive it, it's a moot point. I think most people understand there is a difference in skills. You find yourself racing against and comparing yourself against the drivers closest to your skill level even if that is not a podium finish. I'm sure there are people who aren't happy unless they are winning, but my experience has been guys are happy to race, hopefully do a better over time, and enjoy the company of people enjoying the same things they do. Looking at it from the other perspective, if you've worked hard to get to a higher level are you going to be happy with a system that handicaps you?

That being said, I have seen clubs where there is a winner's handicap. For each race you win or place on the podium, a certain number of laps is deducted from your lap total at the next race.


----------



## Serge (Jan 4, 2014)

*When in Rome*

In these parts we run round robin but the championship style which is run at the Fray has it's merits. I've never run crash and burn, but I'd love to try it.


----------



## TK Solver (Mar 18, 2004)

I prefer "shoebox IROC" racing, where guys don't race their own cars. Cars are assigned to the lanes and you race with whichever car is in your lane for that race.

In our race league, I supply all the cars and they are randomly assigned to team shoe boxes. Each racer gets a box with 8 cars at the start of the event. Two races in each of four lanes. You have twice as many races as you have racers. I have race schedules set up in Excel for anywhere between 8 and 14 racers. We typically have 10 to 12 racers.

Each race consists of practice laps, two time trial laps, and then the actual race which is anywhere from 15 to 35 laps depending on the track and chassis type. Fastest qualifier scores 3 points and 2nd fastest gets 1 point. Race points are awarded as 7, 5, 3, 1. Total points awarded per race are 20 including qualifying. 80 would be a perfect score for the night. An event with 10 racers takes about 3.5 hours including a couple short breaks.

We have three different guys with tracks we rotate through during the season.

Everything is random. The cars for each race have similar lap times as logged in my spreadsheet. There are never any hard feelings about cars passing/failing inspection. The costs are minimal for everyone except me. You could also do this in a club environment where everyone pitches in and the club buys sets of five similar cars at a time -- the four with the closest lap times actually race and the fifth gets used for spare parts and/or practice.


----------



## FOSTBITTEN (Aug 1, 2013)

It is funny that this topic is on here. Because a buddy and I were kicking around an idea the other day of a modified crash & burn format. If you know about the Figure 8 World Championships they run a bunch of laps I cannot remember how many (w/o googling). And when a car drops out of the race there is another car ready to take the fallen cars place. 

Our idea was much the same if your car wrecks it stays nobody touches it. Then you quickly grab another car in the infield and go back to racing. Although we have not figured out if your laps reset or you just going until the laps are up, And how many and what kind of cars are available? Or if say a car wrecks in front of you earlier & are you able to use that car again?

Then we had another idea of a more traditional race type. Where you only have one chassis and then have races for Indy/F1's, Nascar, Sports Car's etc. This way you only need one chassis to race. 

These might work. The 1st one might be just something to do once in a while I dunno. The 2nd one is the more serious of the 2.


----------



## neorules (Oct 20, 2006)

We race Handicapped racing. Based on your totals at each track each racer is given a handicap. In theory all racers should be on the same lap with ten seconds to go. Your final Race total is determined by adding the number of handicapped laps with the actual total run. Highest total wins. This way all racers can win by improving.


----------



## TeamMadMarsupial (Dec 23, 2012)

We run C&B with qualifying heats, and a series of consolations, semis and a B-Main to whittle down the field to the final six racers that run the A-Main or feature.
Any night we have 24 or fewer racers, we run four qualifying heats. It usually works out to two qualifying heats for adults and two for the under 16 kids division. Heat winners go right to the "A Main". Second place in the heats goes directly to the "B Main". The rest go to consolation races. If twelve or less remain, two consi's take three each into the semi. Two from the semi go to the "B-Main", joing the second place finishers from the four heats. Two from the "B Main" move to the feature joining the four heat winners.

This ensures that at least two from the under 16 group, both heat winners will advance to the feature for every race. 

At the begining of the night, we draw cards to pick lanes. High card picks first and so on. To level the field, we handicap the top two in season points by elimnating them from the card draw. After all others have picked lanes, second place in points picks their lane, followed by the points leader. The handicapping is only used for the heat races. After that, everything goes by the card draw.
The handicapping is fairly new, the rest of the qualifying format has been in place for more than 20 years and although it may not be everyone's cup of tea, we have over 30 club members and have averaged anywhere from sixteen to twenty eight racers over the last 10 years.


----------



## RjAFX (Oct 26, 2014)

I never cared how it was run, as long as it was fun, as long as we were having a good time. I used to hold a a weekly race at my house. All the guys, kids, and wifes had fun. We were all friends before I got them into slot cars. Wifes would go shopping taking most of the Daughters along. We had 6 adult males, 6 teen boys, and two teen Girls that raced every week. At times that would double when everyone had Saturday off. We had four classes, four body types. I got all of the goodies from Scale Auto, I still buy from Scale Auto. Bought stuff from Race Sets Limited in Ohio, and a couple other places. Nope, as long as it's fun, I'd race it, race there. If people were to anal about it, I never went back...Have fun, or go home Ladies and Gentlemen.


----------



## FOSTBITTEN (Aug 1, 2013)

RjAFX said:


> I never cared how it was run, as long as it was fun, as long as we were having a good time. I used to hold a a weekly race at my house. All the guys, kids, and wifes had fun. We were all friends before I got them into slot cars. Wifes would go shopping taking most of the Daughters along. We had 6 adult males, 6 teen boys, and two teen Girls that raced every week. At times that would double when everyone had Saturday off. We had four classes, four body types. I got all of the goodies from Scale Auto, I still buy from Scale Auto. Bought stuff from Race Sets Limited in Ohio, and a couple other places. Nope, as long as it's fun, I'd race it, race there. If people were to anal about it, I never went back...Have fun, or go home Ladies and Gentlemen.


Amen, amen to that have fun. My daughter that is (exactly like I was) at her age which is 7. But she takes losing really hard but, the last time she raced with me & a couple other guys. She ran extremely well and won a couple Crash & Burns which is awesome for a kid to show that kind of caution and just willingness to slow down to go fast. I had never been more happy to lose in my life! I was so proud of her. She really did grow up a lot and show sportsmanship a whole lot better than she has in the past. Of course she lost races too but, it never bothered her! 

Amen to the fun, she enjoyed herself and that made me enjoy it more than I think I ever have. I cannot believe I did not think about this until you mentioned it above about the fun being the main reason to have slot cars and a track in the first place. Thanks:thumbsup:


----------



## Shadowracer (Sep 11, 2004)

I've had a lot of fun with both types of races.

In my opinion...and really its only an opinion, is that traditional timed heats w marshals are better on a bigger, more twisty-turny track. I find that the Crash and Burn style is a lot more fun if the track layout is very simple, like an oval, or something else really basic.

I have a friend who has an 8x4 layout with lots of twisty turny...and the chicanes drive me nuts. If my race was over everytime I went off there, it'd get old really fast...no opportunity to get a rythm down. If I was a rookie and running CnB on a track like that, I'd likely lose interest quickly.

But on an oval, look out. You can run CnB doing 5 or 10 lap heats...full rotation, then rack em up again. Its lots of little sprint races rather than one long one. (Look up the RCHORA Crash N Burn club if you haven't already)

There seems to be an old axiom among the few longer term slotters that I've raced with that you "race the track, not the other cars" CnB seems to support the idea that, no, you're actually racing against the other cars. I've also found that dyed in the wool long time slotters are a little tougher to bring over to the CnB side. They like the timed heats and pushing their cars a little harder because they know they'll get put back on if they go off.

Anyway, either is fun. As the other guys have said...whatever works for you and your group.


----------



## mrtjet (Dec 3, 2013)

I like to run a c and b race. Three races of two laps on each lane. Then we move over one lane. If you crash you are out for that two lap race.And your car stays where it lands until that race is over. And yes you may have to smash through crashed cars to continue. One track only gave a point to the first car across the finish line. Another gave points to all finishers. Always fun. No track calls. No Marshall issues.


----------



## Joe65SkylarkGS (Feb 15, 2010)

I have to say crash and burn would be best for around here.

The same few guys around here win every race and this is why the races only have the same group of guys entering and racing. Not much interest for new racers to join in.

They run times and yell and scream at marshalls. Not fun at all. They take all the fun out of it.

Doing crash and burn would put them all in check.

This is why I don't race in one of the most successful racing regions in the country. I have the 100 dollar plus SS cars here but why race if I know I'm not going to even come close to putting up a decent run!!! Not only that but once I walked I to Henry Harnesh's house for one of his awesome races and when me and my buddy walked in, a little late, one of these clowns actually said " Who the F--- are these Guys". Whats that about??? Bunch od idiots if you ASK ME., Henry was more than welcoming himself, great guy with some of the best tracks I ever ran on with HO [email protected]!!!!

You guys know exactly who I'm talking about too.


----------



## KirkWH (Nov 19, 2014)

Joe65SkylarkGS said:


> They run times and yell and scream at marshalls.


If I'm marshaling and they try yelling at me that's when I take my sweet time putting their car back on the track - or just throw it against a wall and tell them to go get it.

What you mentioned can be the downfall of some racing clubs. If the club organizes the races such that the same three or four guys win every race, then they'll have a hard time recruiting new racers. Nobody wants to go racing only to find out it'll take years of effort and thousands of dollars to possibly win a race. The trick is to mix things up enough so everybody can have some measure of success occasionally.


----------



## brownie374 (Nov 21, 2007)

When I host races I like to run a 1 min per heat qualifier race then break up into a 2 min per heat A & B Main with a bump up for the winner of the B main.It make for closer racing and most guys like to run with other racers that are close to them in speed.


----------



## gonegonzo (Jan 18, 2006)

I read a lot about running Crash and Burn to level the playing field so the same drivers don't win every race . That's not the reason for C&B . It's to simplify the marshaling when low attendance occurs .

As far as the same drivers winning , we / us that fall behind and lack the wins , need to work harder on our driving styles and detailed prepping out cars . Don't bash the winning driver . Use him as a tool to set your goals to . If need be , ask him for help .

I'm sorry , maybe I should have stared a new thread .

Gonzo


----------



## tjcdas (Oct 6, 2004)

My son and I also RC race, he is 10 and goes against the adults. When we get to the mains I just have him look at the other racers and show him who he is up against and who realistically the race against. 

In his last race he was 3rd for qualifying in the Mini Cooper class and the top two guys both were 2 laps faster during qualifying, meaning they were not within reach. His goal was to stay a head of the 4th, 5th and 6th qualifiers as they completed the same number of laps as he did. 

He had a fun time and all four of his guys he was really racing stayed on the same lap for the 8 minute main. The top two guys battled for first and the rest for 3rd.


----------



## KirkWH (Nov 19, 2014)

gonegonzo said:


> I read a lot about running Crash and Burn to level the playing field so the same drivers don't win every race . That's not the reason for C&B . It's to simplify the marshaling when low attendance occurs.


That may be a reason, but it's not the only reason. Crash and burn racing is more like real racing in that racing luck can play a part. If somebody deslots and takes out the leader, then somebody else might win. With traditional slot racing there's very little variability. The same cars and drivers usually win all the races. It's sort of like comparing NASCAR to F1. F1 racing rewards the teams with the best cars/drivers while NASCAR runs it's races to make the finishes as close as possible. With NASCAR the best car and driver don't necessarily always win, but the racing is usually more exciting than watching the same couple F1 cars drone around in the lead all the time.

It's a given that any racer needs to work harder and practice more if he wants to get better, but in NASCAR even drivers like Trevor Bayne can win a race occasionally. In the end the only real issue is whether everyone in the club is having fun. If they are then it's not an issue, but if not, then why not explore ways to make things better?


----------



## Shadowracer (Sep 11, 2004)

As Ive said, I am a fan of crash and burn racing, however its not because I see that style of racing as an "equalizer" No matter how you race, the cream rises to the top. Always.

The nice thing about CnB is that it gives an opportunity for "little successes" Yeah, the unpredictability of it (especially if you're leaving offed cars as they lay) is such that one of the slower guys can pull a rabbit out of their hat and win a heat every now and then. The fast guys will likely still win the evening, but for the little guy that little win can mean everything. Ask any 1:1 stock car racer...I once saw a 40 year old guy who'd been at it for 15 years finally won one. It was only a B main in a Street Stocker division, but the guy hopped out of the car and ran up and down the frontstretch waving the checkered flag like he'd just won the Daytona 500. Even the smallest victory can mean something. 

The trick is to make it possible, but without a format that makes race results COMPLETELY random. Victories fail to mean anything then.


----------



## sethndaddy (Dec 4, 2004)

Take stock cars, oil them, do 10-15 practice laps.

Everyone uses the same controllers. Clean the tires, pick out of the hat as to who races which car.
No marshalls, 10 laps, 3offs. If someone falls off the power gets cut and the guy who falls off goes 2 track lengths behind the last place car.

Repeat with other cars.


----------



## beast1624 (Mar 28, 2009)

Joe65SkylarkGS said:


> I have to say crash and burn would be best for around here.
> 
> The same few guys around here win every race and this is why the races only have the same group of guys entering and racing. Not much interest for new racers to join in.
> 
> ...


Good point, Joe. In our group I get tired of racing against "Hendrick Motor Sports"...you know, the guys who show up with 12 cars for one class when you have one or two and can't afford to build or 'outsource' more. The C&B races really p##ss them off 'cause they like to go 'all' out and count on the kindness of good corner marshals to put them back in and win. I have won more C&B races than any other in our group because it messes with their usual 'chi'. Whenever the C&B comes up for whatever...usually a lack of corner marshals...they say 'Oh, that means BEAST is going to win.'


----------



## beast1624 (Mar 28, 2009)

KirkWH said:


> If I'm marshaling and they try yelling at me that's when I take my sweet time putting their car back on the track - or just throw it against a wall and tell them to go get it.
> 
> What you mentioned can be the downfall of some racing clubs. If the club organizes the races such that the same three or four guys win every race, then they'll have a hard time recruiting new racers. Nobody wants to go racing only to find out it'll take years of effort and thousands of dollars to possibly win a race. The trick is to mix things up enough so everybody can have some measure of success occasionally.


My favorite thing to do is say "Oh, you mean this car here? You want me to put this car back In?" then toss it to them and say "Put it in your OWN 'dag'gum' self.' That usually puts a stop the the corner marshal abuse and gets the message across that we ain't gonna' put up with that stuff. Throwing it against a wall works pretty good too.


----------



## beast1624 (Mar 28, 2009)

gonegonzo said:


> I read a lot about running Crash and Burn to level the playing field so the same drivers don't win every race . That's not the reason for C&B . It's to simplify the marshaling when low attendance occurs .
> 
> As far as the same drivers winning , we / us that fall behind and lack the wins , need to work harder on our driving styles and detailed prepping out cars . Don't bash the winning driver . Use him as a tool to set your goals to . If need be , ask him for help .
> 
> ...


I see your pint to a point. In our group we have some guys that have almost unlimited resources to either build or have built for them amazing cars that most of the others can't afford. C&B evens out that playing field to an extent. Another way to even it out is using IROC cars. Only downfall to that is the same guys are the only ones that can afford to build an IROC class and they know and are able to practice with them. That's one thing I love about the DASH chassis...they make it a little more affordable to do an IROC class of your own.


----------



## beast1624 (Mar 28, 2009)

KirkWH said:


> That may be a reason, but it's not the only reason. Crash and burn racing is more like real racing in that racing luck can play a part. If somebody deslots and takes out the leader, then somebody else might win. With traditional slot racing there's very little variability. The same cars and drivers usually win all the races. It's sort of like comparing NASCAR to F1. F1 racing rewards the teams with the best cars/drivers while NASCAR runs it's races to make the finishes as close as possible. With NASCAR the best car and driver don't necessarily always win, but the racing is usually more exciting than watching the same couple F1 cars drone around in the lead all the time.
> 
> It's a given that any racer needs to work harder and practice more if he wants to get better, but in NASCAR even drivers like Trevor Bayne can win a race occasionally. In the end the only real issue is whether everyone in the club is having fun. If they are then it's not an issue, but if not, then why not explore ways to make things better?


Well said, Kirk!


----------



## leonus (Dec 17, 2013)

I am amazed by the whole idea of"corner marshals"

At my house, its spin out or deslot, you lose if the other racer finishes.

Just me I guess...

But where is driver skill if there is someone to put you back on track?

I admit I've never been in an "organized" race.


----------



## TK Solver (Mar 18, 2004)

leonus, if a car spins and is blocking your lane, your skill can't do much about it and another slower car in a lane that isn't blocked can beat you. So it's about making sure the most skillful drivers can actually race. If that isn't important, and giving everyone a chance to take out the more skillful racers sounds fun, then CnB works great.


----------



## leonus (Dec 17, 2013)

That's a good point...

Wasn't "bashing"...


----------



## plymouth71 (Dec 14, 2009)

Naked.


----------



## slotking (May 27, 2008)

> leonus, if a car spins and is blocking your lane, your skill can't do much about it and another slower car in a lane that isn't blocked can beat you. So it's about making sure the most skillful drivers can actually race. If that isn't important, and giving everyone a chance to take out the more skillful racers sounds fun, then CnB works great.


with the right body and setup, a car in your lan may not be an issue.
I have dealt with this from hard body t-jets & inlines to lexan pancake to inlines.

only takes sec to figure to blow through the car or slow down and deal with the car


----------



## leonus (Dec 17, 2013)

plymouth71 said:


> Naked.


Lol&#55357;&#56833;&#55357;&#56833;


----------



## tasman (Feb 17, 2007)

By myself. It's the only way I can win.


----------

