# Any News/Pics of the 1:35 Pod/Chariot?



## kdaracal (Jan 24, 2009)

Any new news or pics of these little gems?

:wave:


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## j2man (Jun 18, 1999)

I second that!


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## j2man (Jun 18, 1999)

Are we being ignored on this? LOL


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## kdaracal (Jan 24, 2009)

Moebius is awesome and probably busy as heck. I imagine the folks at Moebius are as excited as we are to get pics out. In any case, it was probably way too early to post this thread. 

I'm chomping at the bit and I haven't even started my J2! Apologies to Moebius if I'm being an irritant! 

The wife got ticked at me the other day for having a cabinet full of new Moebius kits and not even starting them, yet. I'm so misunderstood!

:wave:


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## mrdean (Aug 11, 1998)

kdaracal said:


> ...
> 
> I'm chomping at the bit and I haven't even started my J2! Apologies to Moebius if I'm being an irritant!
> 
> ...


That is why I open each kit and glue at least 1 part on every kit I get! It goes into the closet but officially started!

Mark Dean


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## Steve H (Feb 8, 2009)

I don't want to upset the cart, but I must have missed it in other discussions. Why are these kits 'mixed media' (plastic, resin, photoetch) and not all styrene? Or did that change?

I mean, given the smaller size the replacing of some parts with photoetch makes sense (handrails, ladder rungs) because you can get a better scale look and also reduce the work in cutting tooling but I'm at a loss to figure out what parts would be cheaper or better or whatever in resin. maybe this entire subject is in flux and that's a reason for no proto pics yet.


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## johncal (May 26, 2010)

Steve H said:


> I don't want to upset the cart, but I must have missed it in other discussions. Why are these kits 'mixed media' (plastic, resin, photoetch) and not all styrene? Or did that change?
> 
> I mean, given the smaller size the replacing of some parts with photoetch makes sense (handrails, ladder rungs) because you can get a better scale look and also reduce the work in cutting tooling but I'm at a loss to figure out what parts would be cheaper or better or whatever in resin. maybe this entire subject is in flux and that's a reason for no proto pics yet.


Now this is just a guess, but I know that the costs to tool a model kit can be quite high. When you sell a mdel kit, you hope everyone will buy it. This particular kit however will probably have a more limited market because it is made for those that have the J2 already since it is scaled to match the J2. I think Moebius is doing this more as a service to his customers than anything, for which I am greatly appreciative. But again that is just a guess. 

It is also absolutly true that photoetched parts will give much better detail in small sizes, and resin parts genrally require a much lower tooling cost and lead time. I'm very impressed and thankful that Moebius would do this for us and I know I'm getting one if for no other reason than to support the cause..... and it will look great in my display! I can't wait for the challenge of detailing something in that scale. Should be fun.


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## kdaracal (Jan 24, 2009)

mrdean said:


> That is why I open each kit and glue at least 1 part on every kit I get! It goes into the closet but officially started!
> 
> Mark Dean


25 years of marriage, but I'm not too proud to take a new idea! Thanks!


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## kdaracal (Jan 24, 2009)

> I think Moebius is doing this more as a service to his customers than anything, for which I am greatly appreciative.


I have to believe that the J2 didn't pay off as well as Moebius had wished. The economy was in the process of tanking when it launched. For Moebuis to do a scaled set for fans, knowing it will be a limited market, really shows the love they have for us and the genre.

I met Frank at Monsterpalooza in April, and he is just a great guy. I HAD to ask about the possibility of a big, accurate Spindrift. He answered that it just wasn't a good business decision at this time. But I could hear in his voice that he just ached to be able to say "yes, we plan to do it!" 

Aside from the $10,000 Armani suit he was wearing, the $100,000 Jag he was driving, and the 2 blonde chicks on his arms, he was just a regular guy!
*(JOKING!)* The suit was just a $5,000 Gucci.

:wave: :tongue:


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## jbond (Aug 29, 2002)

His name is Frank.


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## kdaracal (Jan 24, 2009)

jbond said:


> His name is Frank.


Had Randy Neubert on the brain.............Thanks for catching that!


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## kdaracal (Jan 24, 2009)

Seaview

PM sent............


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## mrdean (Aug 11, 1998)

kdaracal said:


> 25 years of marriage, but I'm not too proud to take a new idea! Thanks!


Working on 29 and still keeping her happy!

It is the little things that count!

Mark Dean


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## Ductapeforever (Mar 6, 2008)

I spoke with Frank last week by phone and it is my understanding that they had been underimpressed with the success of the J-2. The economy has had a big part in that. If the economy recovers I think we will see more of this type of kit. As such any hope of a 1/32 scale Spindrift is a very long way away.


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## johncal (May 26, 2010)

Ductapeforever said:


> I spoke with Frank last week by phone and it is my understanding that they had been underimpressed with the success of the J-2. The economy has had a big part in that. If the economy recovers I think we will see more of this type of kit. As such any hope of a 1/32 scale Spindrift is a very long way away.


Be VERY thankful we got the J2. That could be a once in a lifetime thing. There are NOT any other guys I know besides Frank that would spend that much money producing something for the love of it. Yeah, he certainly wants to make money, but you can see that it's a lot more than that. He actually cares. So do guys like Randy and Henry that do all of the great electronics and decal kits for a very small market. We have a lot to be thankful for. It's all dollars and cents with everybody else now days. 

That's why I snatched up my J2 the second I could.


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## kdaracal (Jan 24, 2009)

johncal said:


> Be VERY thankful we got the J2. That could be a once in a lifetime thing. There are NOT any other guys I know besides Frank that would spend that much money producing something for the love of it. Yeah, he certainly wants to make money, but you can see that it's a lot more than that. He actually cares. So do guys like Randy and Henry that do all of the great electronics and decal kits for a very small market. We have a lot to be thankful for. It's all dollars and cents with everybody else now days.
> 
> That's why I snatched up my J2 the second I could.


Agreed!! :thumbsup:


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## Moebius (Mar 15, 2007)

Not purposely ignoring this discussion, just not much to add to it. Mixed media is the only way we could do this kit. We had the larger kits in tooling before tooling prices went crazy. If we had to tool something like that today, I'm not sure we would. Even in this scale, it's a good chunk of money. Resin and photoetch is a necessity on these. The only reason there's any styrene in this is because of the canopy. There has been very little interest in these on the distributor side, so they have fallen behind, with no incentive to "rush them to market". They'll come, but they have fallen behind for sure! I would honestly say at this point to look for them in January.


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## kdaracal (Jan 24, 2009)

Moebius said:


> Not purposely ignoring this discussion, just not much to add to it. Mixed media is the only way we could do this kit. We had the larger kits in tooling before tooling prices went crazy. If we had to tool something like that today, I'm not sure we would. Even in this scale, it's a good chunk of money. Resin and photoetch is a necessity on these. The only reason there's any styrene in this is because of the canopy. There has been very little interest in these on the distributor side, so they have fallen behind, with no incentive to "rush them to market". They'll come, but they have fallen behind for sure! I would honestly say at this point to look for them in January.


Understood. Thanks for the info. January is perfectly fine with me! Appreciate all your hard work. You are pumping out so many awesome kits, it's kind of mind boggling! It is *GOOD* to be a model builder these days, for sure!

:wave:


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## Steve H (Feb 8, 2009)

Moebius said:


> Not purposely ignoring this discussion, just not much to add to it. Mixed media is the only way we could do this kit. We had the larger kits in tooling before tooling prices went crazy. If we had to tool something like that today, I'm not sure we would. Even in this scale, it's a good chunk of money. Resin and photoetch is a necessity on these. The only reason there's any styrene in this is because of the canopy. There has been very little interest in these on the distributor side, so they have fallen behind, with no incentive to "rush them to market". They'll come, but they have fallen behind for sure! I would honestly say at this point to look for them in January.


I feel your pain.

I can't help but ask the technical questions. What's happened? Is it the weakening Dollar? Tool blanks skyrocketing? Changes in Chinese labor pricing? All at once and more? 

So my crazy question: At what point does "maybe we should bring this whole thing back to the US, at least that's stable and we don't have to worry about customs and transit times and translation delays and..." become viable? I'd hate for you guys to be forced out of business because of all those uncontrollable variables.


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## liskorea317 (Mar 27, 2009)

Ductapeforever said:


> I spoke with Frank last week by phone and it is my understanding that they had been underimpressed with the success of the J-2. The economy has had a big part in that. If the economy recovers I think we will see more of this type of kit. As such any hope of a 1/32 scale Spindrift is a very long way away.


I was under the impression that the Jupiter 2 was a big hit. Guess I didn't realize the economy played a part. But I did my bit for the cause-I bought 3 Jupiter 2 kits, two for me and one for my brother, plus two pods and two chariots. And I'll be buying Moebius kits as long as they keep producing them.
As soon as possible, I have to get me that big Seaview!
Mike


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## johncal (May 26, 2010)

Steve H said:


> I feel your pain.
> 
> I can't help but ask the technical questions. What's happened? Is it the weakening Dollar? Tool blanks skyrocketing? Changes in Chinese labor pricing? All at once and more?
> 
> So my crazy question: At what point does "maybe we should bring this whole thing back to the US, at least that's stable and we don't have to worry about customs and transit times and translation delays and..." become viable? I'd hate for you guys to be forced out of business because of all those uncontrollable variables.


I'm the most pro-USA guy you'll find, but it is impossible to build these kits here. I can tell you from experience it would have cost at least $250 thousand just to tool that kit here, and you'd probably be looking at a amnufacturing cost of well over $100 in the US. That's cost, not sell price. Sell price would be in the $200+ range and more like $250+ not counting recouping the tooling costs.

For my own product, cost is less than half if I were to have it made overseas.

So these guys would just be forced out of business because nobody could afford or would want to pay probably in the range of $250 for a low production run plastic model kit.

It's unfortunate, but we just CAN'T compete with countries that have labor rates in the dollar an hour range and countries who's government subsidizes tooling and R&D costs to bring business into the country. Wow, there's a novel idea our govermment could try to encourage job creation. If that's what they really wanted to do.


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## Steve H (Feb 8, 2009)

johncal said:


> I'm the most pro-USA guy you'll find, but it is impossible to build these kits here. I can tell you from experience it would have cost at least $250 thousand just to tool that kit here, and you'd probably be looking at a amnufacturing cost of well over $100 in the US. That's cost, not sell price. Sell price would be in the $200+ range and more like $250+ not counting recouping the tooling costs.
> 
> For my own product, cost is less than half if I were to have it made overseas.
> 
> ...


John, I understand what you're saying perfectly well. (and I believe I understand the subtext of your thinking at the end there as well, and agree)

I'm not trying to be some jingoistic unrealistic daydreamer here, I'm the kind of person who when confronted with 'we can't' I tend to say "well, have you even tried lately or are you working based on experiences from 15 years ago?". I try to look at the balance sheet. If China is starting to squeeze their prices up, if the QC is of such unsure quality (date rape drugs? lead paint? harmful chemicals used in mold release? ), if the cost of doing business overseas has become a DAILY adjusted invoice so as what was costed out to be profitable is now a loss, if shipping costs are soaring due to fuel prices, if wait time for customs inspection at the docks is causing blown release dates and thus some vendors cancel orders... at what point do you say "hell, we can buy our OWN damn injection molding machinery!" and go back to the way, say, Aurora got their start making kits, to keep the factory running year round.

Because, I don't want to seem like a downer, but it isn't EVER going to get better. Even if oil prices stabilized and the Dollar magically regained its strength, all those issues regarding China will still be there.

(I can tell you there are quite a number of plastic injection companies here in Michigan who would be HAPPY to have a sideline, and a company that did prototyping and tool cutting for MPC and Kenner back in the '80s is still in business here in Grand Rapids)

And who knows, there may well be some tax incentives in the near future for 'bringing it home'. (not holding my breath but you never know)

Of course there's such a damn complex thing going on. If model building was more popular and the demand for kits was there, there would be more profit and more available money to start experimenting. As things are, as tight margins are now, it may be impossible to work any other way. Unless the Czechs make a bid.


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## Moebius (Mar 15, 2007)

It really has nothing to do with most of that. Prices went up a few years ago and have stayed stable. There is no worry about having to change prices on a daily basis. QC has never been a problem for us, EXCEPT quality shipping once it hits port here. We have more damaged product by mishandling between customs and the shippers here than anything overseas. Hate to bash the typical American worker, but I've received more damage by truck here, where the driver is pretty happy to tell me he's "only the driver" and "file a claim". If they were to pay it, the insurance by truck is based on the weight. And I'm sure most of you realize what a kit weighs. Not worth the time to even claim it. I don't think there will be the day we could move anything here. I don't have the time to get into it all, but we have priced things here. Yeah there are plenty of injection shops that could use the work. But so much more comes into play. Maybe some upcoming show I'll run another Q&A like we did a few years back at the IPMS Nationals.


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## Dave Metzner (Jan 1, 1970)

This is the wrong subject for discussion! 
Trust me if we could get it done here like it gets done there at anything that looks remotely like it makes sense money-wise we'd be doing it here! 
Where it's done has nothing to do with whether or not the 1/35 Pod and Chariot kit gets made or the economy in general. 
It's all about our understanding of demand for the kits and finding a way to fill that demand while still making some return on our investment!
Dave


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## j2man (Jun 18, 1999)

Yep, all I wanted to know if there were shots of it yet........Didn't know all this would come from a question like that. Although interesting, probably for another forum.........Pushed back until January, but would still like to see any test shots come down the pike.

Thanks.


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## Dave Metzner (Jan 1, 1970)

At this date there are no test shots just tooling mock-ups - no photos for awhile sorry.


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## Moebius (Mar 15, 2007)

We'll post something as soon as we have it, the mockups would just lead to a lot more questions. They don't have much of a look the way they sit right now!


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## Steve H (Feb 8, 2009)

Dave Metzner said:


> This is the wrong subject for discussion!
> Trust me if we could get it done here like it gets done there at anything that looks remotely like it makes sense money-wise we'd be doing it here!
> Where it's done has nothing to do with whether or not the 1/35 Pod and Chariot kit gets made or the economy in general.
> It's all about our understanding of demand for the kits and finding a way to fill that demand while still making some return on our investment!
> Dave


I do understand. I just get carried away with a train thought.

And yeah, damage by truckers unloading and the customs folks. That's something I know about all too well. 

So, tossing out a question that is sort of triggered by my thought process from before:

OK, major cost is the shell of the Chariot, the canopy and the tub. The canopy is the bugger because you need a big, deep hunk of tool steel for that. 

At 1/35 scale, why not go Vacuum Form for the canopy part? I don't think there were any undercuts, might have to re-design the chassis tub slightly.

Then maybe some (if not all?) of the resin parts might be cut into the tool for the chassis tub and thus shot in styrene and that would simplify the manufacturing process.

Bonus would be the vacuum formed canopy would be more 'scale'.

OK, it was considered and rejected for one reason or another. I had to give it a shot.


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## Moebius (Mar 15, 2007)

I don't think vac form is an alternative. Plenty of people hate it, we've already gone through rounds of questions on why these kits aren't completely styrene. To throw vac form in would make it even tougher for the average modeler to build. We really have no choice but to use as much styrene as possible to make it a somewhat simple build.


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## Steve H (Feb 8, 2009)

Moebius said:


> I don't think vac form is an alternative. Plenty of people hate it, we've already gone through rounds of questions on why these kits aren't completely styrene. To throw vac form in would make it even tougher for the average modeler to build. We really have no choice but to use as much styrene as possible to make it a somewhat simple build.


Thank you. 

I don't disagree, I'm the kind of lazy builder that just wants styrene and maybe some metal rods so wheels turn or something, that's the extent I'd want 'mixed media', right?

The issue with vac form is always the trimming, and that's the key issue. More work at the factory = more cost. Leave the trimming to the consumer and there's bitching and moaning and lost money in replacing damaged parts. And then there's trying to attach photo etch to the vac plastic...

(altho if the trim is designed to be overlapped by styrene plates to get the mating right..no, there's still a major issue pending with the dome on top, that has to be trimmed flawlessly due to its visibility and position. poo.)

So, good call. I hope you guys can crack it, it'd be nice to see.


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## fortress (Apr 1, 2006)

Ductapeforever said:


> I spoke with Frank last week by phone and it is my understanding that they had been underimpressed with the success of the J-2. The economy has had a big part in that. If the economy recovers I think we will see more of this type of kit. As such any hope of a 1/32 scale Spindrift is a very long way away.


I guess the bigger question is if subjects like the "Spindrift"
would be too costly to produce at this point, what would not 
be. What direction dose Moebius plan to go in 2011-2012

fortress


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## RSN (Jul 29, 2008)

fortress said:


> I guess the bigger question is if subjects like the "Spindrift"
> would be too costly to produce at this point, what would not
> be. What direction dose Moebius plan to go in 2011-2012
> 
> fortress


I imagine we will find that out in 2011, after their 2010 relases are complete. As for the Spindrift, I am pretty sure they know how we feel about the subject. In the words of Dr. Smith, "Are not two miracles a day sufficient?"


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## Paulbo (Sep 16, 2004)

RSN said:


> ...As for the Spindrift, I am pretty sure they know how we feel about the subject...


I'd say that's a true statement


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

*I can definitely say that at least in my case, I would not buy a chariot
with a Vacuum formed canopy....If I wanted that kind of "junk"...I would have kept my lunar models chariot back in the 1980's..Moebius , in my opinion, is a class company..Id hate to see Frank descend to that kind of quality, and it would be off my list of items that I would buy..But then again..I am perfectly happy with the moebius chariot that was already released by them, and if they chose to drop the smaller ones from the future production list...I could easily live with that..

Z
*


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## Richard Baker (Aug 8, 2006)

Vacuforming the greenhouse does not bother me that much- it is a hassel but with a choice of having or not having a kit the media is not as important as accuracy.


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## RSN (Jul 29, 2008)

Drop the vacuforming debate, as read into his comment, Frank said in his post the canopy would be styrene.


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

RSN said:


> Drop the vacuforming debate, as read into his comment, Frank said in his post the canopy would be styrene.


*I'm glad that the canopy is going to be styrene...and I said all I was going to say on that subject..
no point in "ordering " it to stop...

Z
*


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