# timing...



## tamiya_kid_ta04

is timing adjustable on brushless motors? just curious, thanks mike


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## hankster

Some ESCs allow you to adjust timing. The Novak and LRP do not allow that.


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## tamiya_kid_ta04

oh... thanks alot. i might get a brushless kit and wanted to know, also cann you adjust it with a hacker system?


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## hankster

Yes, the Hacker does allow you to change the timing.


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## patcollins

I was reading that Novak had planned on making their system with adjustable timing but couldn't tell any difference when they changed the timing.


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## DynoMoHum

That's interesting... where'd you read that at?

The Mamba-25 has adjustable timing, if you buy the USB interface... Suposedly Mamba is going to have a high power controler out in the future that should work for 10th scale. I'm assuming it too would have adjustable timing.

I never did buy the USB interface nor did I play much with my Mamba-25 setup.

Given how much impact timing has on brushed motors, it's hard to imagine why it wouldn't have simmilar effects on brushless...


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## patcollins

I read it somewhere on RC Tech in a post from Charlie from Novak.


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## yokman

some of the fast boys at the midwest brushless oval challange were turning there timing up on there 4300 motors.seen it with my own two eyes.


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## "Frank Ulbrik"

*.......*

Waz up J, I heard rumors of turning the timing down & gearing up. Have ya heard anything about that at all? I bought a 4300 system & I thought everything was supposed to be equal with brushless then I heard about the timing bs... 

O'well more like MOD, better for me!


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## briano_72

with the mamba, the usb set up is no differant, other than being easier. its got all the same options as it does when you do it with the radio and the speedo.


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## yokman

frank-hope everything is good with ya.i guess you are right they were turning them down now that i think of it cause they were running mad gearing that i couldnt even think of going to.but the times werent that much more.with out dynoing the motor how do you really no how much better and efficent it is.i am still sold on brushless though.i have really learned alot about my car since i have started running it.hope to race with you and your bro's soon.
jeremy


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## "Frank Ulbrik"

*...*

Yeah I ran BL at Josh's a couple weeks ago before I knew about the timing thing & was almost a lap quicker than cars running the timed motors, so It prolly dosen't do much. BL was alot of fun, it was nice not having to cut the motor after every round.


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## DynoMoHum

Hmm... this is the first I have heard about anyone tweaking the timing on a Novak... Perticularly if your speaking about the guys from Michigan. Now since I've not run this year, I haven't had much contact with the guys, but when I was there (at Josh's) a few weeks back(before the Novak race), no one even hinted that they had any way to adjust the timing of the Novaks which they all were running.

As far as I know, the only way you could tweak the timing on a current Novak brushless system, would be to get someone to modify the firmware for you. This is likely not a easy task unless you know someone from Novak who could/would help you. That is, there is no user software that I'm aware of that will allow you to adjust the timing on the Novak systems that are currently for sale over the counter.


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## Fred B

The timing adjustment is in the motors (reedy/LRP and Novak) The sensor moves on a ring.


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## "Frank Ulbrik"

*......*



> timing adjustment is in the motors (reedy/LRP and Novak) The sensor moves on a ring.


Yep, thats right. I raced at the last race at Josh's and didn't find out till after the race when one of his employees told me about the timing ring... I think people might be try'n to keep it on the hush. I've heard of people picking up a lap by fooling with the timing & gear.


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## Fred B

The funny thing is that for me it doesn't make a lot more power but it does move the powerband around a bunch. Especially on the hot motors. Retarding the timing seems to give you more punch (when geared properly) and advancing seems to smooth the motor out and give a little more at the top.

On the oval it may be totally different though.


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## hobbyten

yes the guys from mich. no about the timing. they found out at the novak race. you can only change a small amount and i don't see alot of difference. they did try it both ways retard and advance don't know if one is better than the other.


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## yokman

Frank Ulbrik said:


> Yeah I ran BL at Josh's a couple weeks ago before I knew about the timing thing & was almost a lap quicker than cars running the timed motors,


ummmm, i guess some things never change no matter what motor is being ran. :dude:


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## jenzorace

Retarding the timing is the way to go. At the bl race the fast guys were checked with some kind of meter. Im not sure what kind of meter it was but i was told that retarded motors had more power. the other trick is ceramic bearings. Less heat, longer power. 20 degrees cooler. In reality its still a battery war...


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## hobbyten

they used an inductance meter to check the motors. a 4300 is between 29 to33 on the meter. for more info go to novaks web site and they have all the info encluding the name of some meters you can get to check them. also the higher the number the worse the motor is.


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## mc43

timing doesnt matter,i have tried both ways no change


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## "Frank Ulbrik"

*timing*



> At the bl race the fast guys were checked with some kind of meter. Im not sure what kind of meter it was but i was told that retarded motors had more power.


 Thats the same thing I heard, and talked with a close freind that waz there that picked up a lap by doing it! In a good car I have to beleive there is an advantage to doing it.....I'll find out first hand this weekend in Iowa at the midwest champs & post the results.


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## OvalTrucker

Nothing like screwing up a good thing!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## "Frank Ulbrik"

*....*

Im totally against being allowed to adjust the timing in these things, but if people are going to benifit from it & it's legal I guess it's the only way to go.


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## tw78911sc

Frank,
A few months ago in Cinncy everyone got waxed by a guy when we were running the 5800BL class. Thinking back on it I bet he knew, no one else did. He had a great car but he could walk everyone in a drag race too.
Tom


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## DynoMoHum

I see... you're talking about physicaly changing the posistion of the sensors, not changing the timing in the software/firmware. I assumed you meant chaning the timing in firmware, which is also possible yet would require more knowlege and/or the abilty to modify the firmware... but then as was said early in this discussion, there are other (besides LRP and Novak) systems that allow the user to control the timing in the firmware/software.

I think it's a loosing battle to try and control these matters. I for one never assumed brushless would end this kind of thing... I think it's best just to accept that virtualy nothing has changed with brushless, except for the lack of brushes.


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## DynoMoHum

Now, to me where the gains could be made would be in some kind of timing that could change based on the RPM and/or other real time information, such as load, etc... Eventualy these controlers will be fully capable of realtime changes of many operating paramters... It's surely a matter of time before the firmware becomes much more advanced then it currently is. At some level it will be very hard, bordering on impossible to check for all the various possiblitys that could change related to the firmware.


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## hankster

At first I thought that being able to change the timing is a bad thing. Now more that I think about it maybe it isn't. What's the big deal anyways? As long as everyone knows it can be changed and how to do it then there is no advantage for anyone... the power the motor puts out is still limited by the "winds" of the motor. Unlike brushed motors advanced timing does not mean more wear and tear on brushes and comms. But advanced timing could mean premature motor failure due to extra heat buildup.

The only disadvantage that I see is that in the Novak and LRP motors you have to take the motor apart rather then just easily reprogram the ESC.


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## jenzorace

The only disadvantage that I see is that in the Novak and LRP motors you have to take the motor apart rather then just easily reprogram the ESC.[/QUOTE]
no needto take the motor apart loosen 3 screws and turn the timing ring on the novak.


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## hankster

Thanks for the info.... haven't tried it so didn't know. But reprogramming would be nicer


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## ta_man

jenzorace said:


> no needto take the motor apart loosen 3 screws and turn the timing ring on the novak.


What part exactly is the "timing ring"?


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## 67-4-fun

From my understanding If you run a higher timing on the 4300 it will shorten the life of it. any truth to that???

Jon


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## 67-4-fun

ta_man said:


> What part exactly is the "timing ring"?


The timing ring is the black ring against the can with notches in it, you losen up the three back screews and turn the ring to advance the timing..


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## jenzorace

67-4-fun said:


> From my understanding If you run a higher timing on the 4300 it will shorten the life of it. any truth to that???
> 
> Jon


Na ive raced every weekend since the bl race last week 3 days of racing. It still screams. another thing to do is replace the armature if you have got it super hot. Magnets fade, I heard of people zapping the arm. But that made them worse.


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## RPM

67-4-fun said:


> The timing ring is the black ring against the can with notches in it, you losen up the three back screews and turn the ring to advance the timing..


Although I knew about the timming ring ahead of this posting.

This is why I'm for running the current fastest brushless motor for a outlaw modified class. No need to tech or buy any performance parts...

The 4300 brushless motor $65.00
then upgrade performance kit $30.00

I don't know but the 4300 brushless class seems to be slowly morphing into a brush motor stock class. :freak:


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## MikeM

We were at the Novak Race at Allen's and with "stock" timing we held TQ for two rounds and set the fastest lap of the weekend. There is A LOT more to be gained in finding the correct gearing/temperature and having a car that will roll.


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## yokman

mikeM-you got knocked off the pole by a car with the timing changed.


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## Bob Wright

tw78911sc said:


> Frank,
> A few months ago in Cinncy everyone got waxed by a guy when we were running the 5800BL class. Thinking back on it I bet he knew, no one else did. He had a great car but he could walk everyone in a drag race too.
> Tom


If you're refering to my car at the 'birds warm-up race, the motor in my car was exactly like it was when it came out of the package.Never had it or the other BL motors I own apart or even oiled the bearings. Like Mike M said a couple of posts back it's all about roll speed in the corner. Even the best motor in a medicore car looks like a slug.

I don't even know which way to turn the timing ring to advance or retard the timing.


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## RPM

yokman said:


> mikeM-you got knocked off the pole by a car with the timing changed.



Now, that's funny....


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## MikeM

I guess I didn't make my point very clear, what I was getting at was just bumping the timing up isn't the total answer. I have seen guys at our local track bump up the timing and go slower.


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## yokman

mikeM-thats wasnt a knock on you at all.you did turn the fastest lap of the weekend and made the A main. i do agree that with the 4300 you have to have a free chassie.but in this case the timming was turned down and roll out went up.


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## MikeM

No problem I didn't mean to sound rude with my reply. I just hear alot of people always complaining about motors etc. that they don't have the latest or the "Team" edition. This class seems to be very fair for everyone to me and I just didn't want someone reading this thread to think all they had to do is turn their timing up or down and I will be as fast as the top cars.


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## jenzorace

I agree mike, and that race was won by one of the smoothest drivers out there. The 4300 brushless class is the most fun a guy could have...


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## OvalTrucker

I race with the Michigan Militia a couple times a month. These guys are fast. Anyone that was at the Novak/Allens race knows what I mean. 

If your chassis isn't right and you can't drive a consistant line, it won't matter what you've done to your 4300.


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## jenzorace

I was at that race, I agree. I thought it was the michigan mafia. The ulbrichs werent there. Hoping to see them this weekend. Are you coming ovaltrucker.


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## DynoMoHum

Militia, mofia... what's the differance...


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## OvalTrucker

mi·li·tia
n 1:An army composed of ordinary citizens rather than professional soldiers. 
2: A military force that is not part of a regular army and is subject to call for service in an emergency. 
3: The whole body of physically fit civilians eligible by law for military service. 

Mafia 
n 1: a crime syndicate in the United States; organized in families; believed to have important relations to the Sicilian Mafia [syn: Mafia, Maffia, Cosa Nostra] 2: a secret terrorist group in Sicily; originally opposed tyranny but evolved into a criminal organization in the middle of the 19th century [syn: Mafia, Maffia, Sicilian Mafia] 3: any tightly knit group of trusted associates [syn: maffia]

Dyno - I suppose you could take elements of each definition and secure a reasonable description! LOL!!

jenzo - I don't think I'm racing anywhere this weekend. I'm still trying to get my honey-do list completed!


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## RPM

OK!

The timing of the brushless motors is out!  
Any ,more ideas on the brushless motors??


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## NitroStar

Is there any way that I could have messed the timing up on my Neo One motor without knowing it? I have taken it apart and sealed the extra holes on the drive end. I think I oiled the back bearing also. How do I check to see if it is in the "stock" timing position? I have 2 Velociti 6.5 motors also.


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## tamiya_kid_ta04

how is the run time on the ss?


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## cola

tamiya_kid_ta04 said:


> how is the run time on the ss?


Before I sold my ss I was able to get around 15mins of practice with a GP3300.


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## NovakTwo

*Don't mess with the timing....*

....unless you _really_ know what you are doing! 

This quote below illustrates the problem. I discussed this "timing" thread with our (Novak's) senior Brushless Design Engineer. 

Novak uses sophisticated test equipment to set optimal timing on all of our brushless motors. Once that optimal timing is changed by the user, it will be difficult for that user to reset the optimal timing again.



NitroStar said:


> Is there any way that I could have messed the timing up on my Neo One motor without knowing it? I have taken it apart and sealed the extra holes on the drive end. I think I oiled the back bearing also. *How do I check to see if it is in the "stock" timing position?* I have 2 Velociti 6.5 motors also.


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## Rocksalt

I wonder how true this is. I agree that resetting it back to factory would be hard to get it exact. Is it the optimal setting from the factory, depends on what you want a motor to do. When you advance the timing you enhance one area while reducing positive effect at a different rpm. It all about give and take here. I would imagine they time the motors so that the broadest torque/HP curve is observed. If you want more rpm than rated you would need to advance the timing. In doing so you will reduce torque down low. If you advance past a certian point you will end up making the motor work against itself. Retarding the timing should make more torque down low at the expense of a good revving motor.


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## RPM

Rocksalt said:


> I wonder how true this is.
> I agree that resetting it back to factory would be hard to get it exact.
> Is it the optimal setting from the factory, depends on what you want a motor to do. .



NO....not true.

Optimal setting means that it was design and set to a certain timing degree.
The 5800 and the 4300 are all set to the same timing.

To say each motor was physically adjust to optimal timing is too funny.
The cost of the motor would increase dramatically due to the volume of motors that is produced.


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## "Frank Ulbrik"

*......*

Ok, I ran BL this weekend at a 60 entry race and played with timing a little. The races were 5 min races, I left my timing alone & qualified 2nd & had one of the top 3 fastest cars all weekend so I don't think there is much or any advantage to advancing or retarding the timing. Maybe if the races were 4 min there could have been an advantage but for now im leaving my timing alone. :thumbsup: 
But I did find out that in brushless good batteries make the biggest difference.


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## NitroStar

My question is - How do I make sure that I do not mess with the timing just because I clean and oil the back bearing? I do not want to mess the timing up. Is it easily changed without knowing it? Thanks


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## "Frank Ulbrik"

*.....*

Just don't play with the 3 screws on the endbell, if ya have to for some reason just mark where it currently is with a sharpie. :thumbsup:


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## Fred B

If you want to oil the rear bearing you just need to be careful that you don't turn the ring. It's not that easy to turn so it shouldn't be an issue. Might want to mark the endbell as Frank suggested.


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## OvalTrucker

Frank Ulbrik said:


> But I did find out that in brushless good batteries make the biggest difference.


 
Good batteries make a difference. But, you do not need the *best* batteries to be competitive and win.
I really believe a good chassis set-up and a consistent driver will beat the best batteries. really-really.:thumbsup:


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## MikeM

Frank, I have to agree with you on timing and the batteries. We played with it too this weekend both advanced and pulled back and found the stock setting the best for us. Maybe on a smaller track like Allen's it showed up more????


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## "Frank Ulbrik"

*....*



> I really believe a good chassis set-up and a consistent driver will beat the best batteries. really-really.


At big races everyone in the show has a well set up car and can prolly wheel pretty good, so if it's a clean race the big sticks are gonna win. I agree average cells can be competitive, but only to an extent. At regular club races average & below average cells will be fine. I club race with 1.19's @ 35amps, thats prolly below average.


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## kvrc

this question is for anyone who has had a 4300 and a 5.5 or 6.5 apart. are the motors basicly constructed the same except for the obvious winds and rotor? i have a 5.5 and have taken it apart to make sure it is clean and to oil the bearings. i cant figure out how anything can get twisted in the back to adjust the timing. if anyone has pictures of a 4300 apart maybee that would help me understand. or if anyone knows of a site that has a good explanation of them please let me know.


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## NitroStar

Please list the top choices for a 4500 to 8000 mah Li-Po battery pack for use in a RC10B4 with Novak 6.5 motor. Preferably 8000 mah. Max Amps is the only one I've found. Thanks for any suggestions.


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## cola

You can go to http://thunderpower-batteries.com/html/batteries.html and scroll down the page. There are 8000's there. I use there 2c pack with a gtb and neo motor. It runs great. I would recomend the 8000.


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## tamiya_kid_ta04

thanks for the help guys, although this threads just become a chat room j/k lol


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## Fred B

kvrc said:


> i cant figure out how anything can get twisted in the back to adjust the timing.
> 
> 
> 
> The timing ring in the back is the ring in between the solder tabs (PCB) and the can. The ring is the part that has all the notches in it. You loosen the 3 screws on the back of the motor and turn that ring like a mod motor. A .5mm shim will grab the notch pretty easily.
> 
> One notch will line up with the screw that is away from the solder tabs at neutral (half of the adjustment).
Click to expand...


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## NitroStar

Does this apply to the Neo One too or just the Novak Velocity?


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## kvrc

fred b thank you for the info. since i made that post i figured that out but wasnt sure it was the timing or not. i am assuming that since the motor spins the same way that a brushed one does that i will have to dial the ring the same way i would an endball? 
i want to retard the timing on my 5.5 so i can change the powerband to a lower rpm/more torque so i can run a little bigger pinion when i put it in my mf2 truck. i dont have it in anything right now, i am running the gtb esc with a stock brush motor.


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## Fred B

Both motors adjust the same way and it's just like a brushed motor on the direction.

For more punch it's more about gearing than timing. More gear is more punch to a point. It sounds strange but that's how it seems to work.


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## NitroStar

I want to keep mine in the stock position. My Neo One is just a tad off of the center of that bolt opposite the solder tabs, but I have not taken this motor apart yet(I'm talking just 1 or 2 mm off). The Velociti's are right on the money.


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## kvrc

im not looking for more performance. the 5.5 is way overkill in 2wd off road. when i have it in my bk2, it will not only pull wheelies it literally launches and lands in its lid. i just want to lower the powerband so i can run a little bigger pinion. i would hate to run a 16 tooth in my mf2 and that is what is needed according to novak.


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## vwal

Is it weird that mine lines up at almost full advance? I mean it is lined up at full advance. Then it moves like maybe 3/16" back in the other direction? Does that sound like I am doing the right thing? I am going to see what it does a on a dyno next week, if anything. Thanks.


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## RPM

vwal said:


> Is it weird that mine lines up at almost full advance? I mean it is lined up at full advance. Then it moves like maybe 3/16" back in the other direction? Does that sound like I am doing the right thing? I am going to see what it does a on a dyno next week, if anything. Thanks.


Becareful with moving the timing to much. There are controller wires that can
break off on the center sensor..


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## vwal

I figured there was something in there, it moves fairly easily between those points. It may not be that far but it is a lot more than I thought there would be.


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## rwkracing

lrp motors have ajustable timing on the motor


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## RPM

vwal said:


> Is it weird that mine lines up at almost full advance? I mean it is lined up at full advance. Then it moves like maybe 3/16" back in the other direction? Does that sound like I am doing the right thing? I am going to see what it does a on a dyno next week, if anything. Thanks.


Every motor is different when it comes to moving the timing up or down.

I have a few 4300 brushless motors and advancing the timing can help in a 4 minute race.
I would say NOT so much in a five minute race.

Turning your timing up moves the powerband on the motor gaining spool up time but at some loss in torque.
So it can help you gain a little more on bigger tracks. 

And that means NOTHING if you can't put the power down on the track!! 

_______________________________________

No, I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night!


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## CDW35

that is so true you can have all the HP in the world but if you cant wheel it doesnt matter!!!!!!!


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## cobra22431

hankster said:


> Thanks for the info.... haven't tried it so didn't know. But reprogramming would be nicer


do I smell another black book? lol


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