# t4 goin brushless



## sean cant drive (Feb 22, 2004)

i have a t4 which will be raced off road. my local track is allowing brushless this year and id like to get some input on which system to get


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## patcollins (Sep 29, 2001)

I ran the Novak SS5800 last summer, it held up well, and I won about half of the time. 

Now Novak has a better ESC out, but I believe for offroad the 5800 motor is more than enough.


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## Craps (Mar 22, 2005)

sean cant drive said:


> i have a t4 which will be raced off road. my local track is allowing brushless this year and id like to get some input on which system to get


If you are not on a budget!

1. Schulze U-Force 75 ESC with a Plettenberg Extreme motor that is a very fast smooth and reliable system that is almost bullet proof. Only downside is the cost of $450 for the system.

2. Novak GTB with 6.5 or 5.5 motor that is just as fast as the Schulze/Plett and is alot cheaper at around $220. The downside is the system is not as reliable and thermals easier running larger pinions.

3. Mtroniks Genesis Pro ESC with a Plettenberg Extreme motor that is as fast as the Schulze/Plett and is to date as reliable too. It is cheaper at around $325. Downside is the ESC is harder to set up.

Note: You can buy cheaper motors for the Schulze and Mtroniks ESCs that will knock off $100 from the system price, but it is not very smooth for racing purposes using the 2 pole Hacker, Feigao or Nemesis motors compared to the Plettenberg's 4 pole motor.

All can and have won the 20 minute Pro Truck Races in my area.

Good Luck!!!!!


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## ta_man (Apr 10, 2005)

I race at the same club as "sean can't drive" and there is one issue that, I believe, eliminates from contention all the motors you mention: Our club is only allowing ROAR approved Brushless motors.

We are only running 5 minute races (just this year up from 4 minutes) and LiPo's are not allowed because they are still perceived as too dangerous for the inexperienced racer.

[I wanted to get a brushless 1/8th scale buggy conversion but was told I couldn't race it on two counts: a) No LiPo, b) brushless is perceived to have an unfair advantage against nitro buggies because: 1) lighter, 2) instant accelleration.]


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## khyron (Apr 2, 2006)

ta_man said:


> I race at the same club as "sean can't drive" and there is one issue that, I believe, eliminates from contention all the motors you mention: Our club is only allowing ROAR approved Brushless motors.


http://www.teamnovak.com/news/roar_brushless/2005brushless_rule.htm
http://www.teamnovak.com/products/brushless/velociti4.5/

Team Novak's web site claims that all their brushless motor systems are ROAR legal, right down to the most powerful, the Velociti 4.5 - are you saying they just made that up?


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## Craps (Mar 22, 2005)

ta_man said:


> I race at the same club as "sean can't drive" and there is one issue that, I believe, eliminates from contention all the motors you mention: Our club is only allowing ROAR approved Brushless motors.
> 
> We are only running 5 minute races (just this year up from 4 minutes) and LiPo's are not allowed because they are still perceived as too dangerous for the inexperienced racer.
> 
> [I wanted to get a brushless 1/8th scale buggy conversion but was told I couldn't race it on two counts: a) No LiPo, b) brushless is perceived to have an unfair advantage against nitro buggies because: 1) lighter, 2) instant accelleration.]


Most tracks around here use ROAR rules as a guidline and let the racers decide what to ammend them with. I want to see a tech man determine if the motor is legal or not because visually most can not tell how many poles it has and besides brushless 2wd off road racing is more about driver than system anyway.

The big April Fools race in Utah this year made li-pos legal as long as the buggy/truck made minimum weight requirements. Just ask your track to ammend the rules for li-pos because the future is here. Been using li-pos at the Charlotte area tracks for around 2 years now with zero accidents. The li-po dangers are alot internet gossip blown way out of reason. They are just as safe as nickel batteries if handle per manufacturers instructions just like the nickel batteries and they are alot better quality wise too giving way more use cycles. For the money they are a better deal and will end battery wars!


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## ta_man (Apr 10, 2005)

Craps said:


> I want to see a tech man determine if the motor is legal or not...


I unfortunately missed this latest rules meeting, but based on previous meetings, I think the reason "ROAR Approved" was the rule is because we _don't want_ to tech motors. All we have to do now is have a list of ROAR approved motors. If it isn't on the list, it isn't legal. Very simple.



Craps said:


> Just ask your track to ammend the rules for li-pos because the future is here.


The future isn't here yet in the sense that everyone doesn't know how to handle LiPos. The specific issue raised as to why LiPos were not approved is the newbie factor. The guy said, yes, he is sure I (meaning me personally) will properly know how to handle and charge them. But they are worried about the guy who sees Mark S. (meaning me) using LiPos and figures, what the hell, Mark runs LiPos, I can do that, I don't really need a special charger, the manufacturers are just saying that to sell new chargers, I can charge this new battery with my old charger ==>>BOOM!

To be perfectly honest, after recently seeing someone melt the shrink wrap off a Sanyo 1500 pack because he didn't pay attention to his timer charger, I think the rules committee has a point. As much as I would like to run LiPos, I accept that point. There is no way we could enforce a rule that says "you have to know what you are doing before you can bring a LiPo battery to the track." There are simply too many people who just don't care to learn the intricasies of everything they have to deal with.


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## Donn (Jul 25, 2002)

I am a bit bias, I would get the LRP Sphere with the 1,2 or 3 star motors. With the standard Sphere you can run any of the above motors in Sportsman mode and they will run like a fast 19t. OR you can go to mod mode and the 1 = 13t brushed, 2 = 11t brushed and the 3 = 9 turn brushed. If you get the Sphere competiton version it does not have the sportsman mode, so you will have to run them in Mod only. And the Novak motors will also work with the LRP speed controls, if you want to run their motors.


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## Craps (Mar 22, 2005)

ta_man said:


> I unfortunately missed this latest rules meeting, but based on previous meetings, I think the reason "ROAR Approved" was the rule is because we _don't want_ to tech motors. All we have to do now is have a list of ROAR approved motors. If it isn't on the list, it isn't legal. Very simple.
> 
> 
> The future isn't here yet in the sense that everyone doesn't know how to handle LiPos. The specific issue raised as to why LiPos were not approved is the newbie factor. The guy said, yes, he is sure I (meaning me personally) will properly know how to handle and charge them. But they are worried about the guy who sees Mark S. (meaning me) using LiPos and figures, what the hell, Mark runs LiPos, I can do that, I don't really need a special charger, the manufacturers are just saying that to sell new chargers, I can charge this new battery with my old charger ==>>BOOM!
> ...


How much experience do you have with brushless and li-pos?

Is this you're opinion or facts from your experience with li-pos and brushless?


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## patcollins (Sep 29, 2001)

I think his point is you can make mistakes with NiCads and NiMH's but not really with LiPo's. I had a charger crap out on me once and the amperage hit the ceiling at 10 amps and it never stopped charging and all I got was melted shrink and a ruined battery pack.

Someone even sells a "battery bunker" for putting lipos in while they charge, its a large ceramic fire proof container.


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## ta_man (Apr 10, 2005)

Craps said:


> How much experience do you have with brushless and li-pos?


Very little with brushless and no personal experience with LiPos.



Craps said:


> Is this you're opinion or facts from your experience with li-pos and brushless?


Regarding the motor issue, my opinion [that they _don't want_ to tech but simply use a list of approved motors] based on previous experience at club meetings. BTW, this is a club I am talking about, not a commercial race track or store.

Regarding the LipPo issue, neither fact or opinion, but almost a direct quote from a person on the executive board of our club as to why LiPos were not approved at the most recent rules meeting.

An aside that shows the quote is not without merit: I saw the 1/8th scale buggy conversion that I wanted to buy at the WRAM show (big radio control models show in New York). They were being sold by Fine Design RC. They explained how safe LiPos are and the good experionce they had with them. A company called Radical RC was in an adjacent booth. They were selling lots of RC stuff including LiPo batteries. But the proprieter also had on display a military .30 caliber ammo can. It was fitted with banana jacks so a LiPo battery could be placed inside and charged. One side was bulged about an inch or so from a LiPo that had exploded inside. When telling about the ammo can story, the owner of Radical RC said he considers LiPo batteries like little baby food bottles of gasoline: Perfectly safe it treated properly but still _potentially_ dangerous.

I am not against LiPos. I might buy some soon just to try. But for now, I can't race them at our club.


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## mbeach2k (Sep 14, 2004)

been running brushless for 3 years now and the best thing would be a 4300 system
it is the best overall system and by far the most popular at vertually every track we go to.
the 4300 system plenty of power and is very fast in the dirt


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## Scoob (Dec 8, 2005)

ta_man said:


> Very little with brushless and no personal experience with LiPos.
> 
> 
> Regarding the motor issue, my opinion [that they _don't want_ to tech but simply use a list of approved motors] based on previous experience at club meetings. BTW, this is a club I am talking about, not a commercial race track or store.
> ...


Your saying he actually blew up a li-po in the box? I am at the point now that I just have a hard time believing all these people could be ignorant enough to do that with all the li-po info out now. In my area LOTS of people (like 30) have been using li-po in races for 2 years and no one has had a fire yet. I have 5 li-po packs of different sizes and brands that have given me excellent results over the past year. If they are charged on a li-po charger at the correct rate and not overdischarged there is nothing to fear. This is my experience anyway.  You just have to understand I, and Craps too, have used and seen lots of other people use li-po in our area with no problems. I won't argue the fact that they are potentially dangerous and not suitable for young children and immature adults or adolescents but with proper use there is no danger.

I hope you get a chance to use them because they are better in every way. The performance and runtime are known, but to me the ease of use was an unexpected bonus. They perform consistently by simply charging them! No discharging, balancing tray, cycling, waiting for them to cool all the time, and all the other non-sense it takes to get NIHM to perform thier best. Just charge and the performance will be there. Simple as it gets.

Good luck  If you go to li-po in the future I promise you'll be blown away  ( Not literally  )


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## Craps (Mar 22, 2005)

ta_man said:


> Very little with brushless and no personal experience with LiPos.
> 
> 
> Regarding the motor issue, my opinion [that they _don't want_ to tech but simply use a list of approved motors] based on previous experience at club meetings. BTW, this is a club I am talking about, not a commercial race track or store.
> ...


First off, I appreciate your opinion, but would rather have quoting from your experience rather than someone's useless fear of something they have zero experience with. As Scoob said, over 30 of us are going 2 years with no fires or explosions.

As far as Chris Fine with Fine Design, *BEWARE!!!* The man is a crook and is not a man of his word! Enough said! (I bought an Electric 1/8th scale from him)

Now as far as the gentleman who had the ammo box for the li-pos that had a dent in it, I'll bet he blew one up on purpose inside that thing. Even the video going around the net a couple of years ago took a guy over 20 minutes of over charging a small li-po at a huge charge rate to finnally blow one up. There are all kinds of warning signs way before it blew too, like swelling way up! Nickel batteries will give no warning except a little sizzle and bang with hot metal shrapnel thrown everywhere. At least li-pos have room to expand and swell up versuses being contained in a metal shell that makes it more dangerous. Nickel batteries are more dangerous than li-pos!

All batteries are dangerous if not charged and handled per the manufacturers instructions! They all must be charged with the correct charger as recommended by the battery manufacturer that includes nickel and li-po batteries.

What kind of RC Club do you belong to that would turn a racer away because of what kind of motor and battery he had? We race everything and everybody at most tracks around here. It is just a hobby and for FUN! These people that turn racers away from a club race have forgotten that! Off road is 80% driver anyway!


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## ta_man (Apr 10, 2005)

Craps said:


> First off, I appreciate your opinion, but would rather have quoting from your experience rather than someone's useless fear of something they have zero experience with.


As I said, I wasn't at that rules meeting so it is only opinion on why it was "ROAR approved" brushless motors. But here is what that opinion is was based on: Two years ago, the subject of what 19T motors we should use came up for discussion at a rules meeting. We were offered the choice of any 19T (which would mean hand wounds as well as machine wounds) or the Trinity Ultra-Bird as a club motor that could be purchased for $25. The choice of using the fixed timing machine wound motors was not available because they didn't want to tech them. Club membership voted on ultrabirds because they were cheap. Chameleons were given 1 year grace, but the year is up and I can't run them now in the 19T class. Mod is OK, but not 19T.



Craps said:


> Now as far as the gentleman who had the ammo box for the li-pos that had a dent in it, I'll bet he blew one up on purpose inside that thing.


The additional details are that the owner of that battery (and ammo can) had said the pack wasn't performing up to snuff recently. So maybe it was way out of balance and he charged it anyway.



Craps said:


> What kind of RC Club do you belong to that would turn a racer away because of what kind of motor and battery he had?... These people that turn racers away from a club race have forgotten that!


We (mostly) don't turn away people because of motors, but see note above on 19T. This year, I was told: yes, you can run your Chameleons in the 19T class, but since the rule is "ultrabird only" if you win and someone protests, you will be disqualified. Since I won the points series last year with C2s, I bought two club ultrabirds.

On the other hand, they specifically will not allow Brushless 1/8 scale buggies to run with the nitro guys because of the perceived advantages of electric motors.

The LiPos are a perceived safety issue because of the [possibly justified] concern that there will be newbies who won't know how to handle them correctly.

I believe [my opinion again] that the reluctance to tech has something to do with our extended racing schedule. On a good day, we might have 150+ entries and 20-24 heats in the schedule. That has taken from 11AM to 8PM or later to get through. I don't think anyone wants to extend the schedule for tech and to look over everyone's car. The reason for that schedule is that we *don't* turn people away. The club's policy is that if there are enough entries for any given category (now 5 minimum but as low as 1 for the Novice class) they will run just about anything.


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## Craps (Mar 22, 2005)

That's good to know that would not turn away any racer because of the equipment. It is sad some take the hobby way overboard taking the FUN right out of it. I would not race at a club track that was that picky with whoever shows up and ask everybody else to boycott a place like that.

It is all about having FUN anyway!


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