# So I wrote to Revell of Germany...



## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

... and told them I was happy they were making Star Wars kits, but I wish the second wave hadn't been ships we already have from Ertl, and that they'd make a Blockade runner and Medical frigate next.

Here's the response:



> Dear Mr Payne,
> 
> thanks for writing us.
> 
> ...


 Well, at least they wrote back, which is more than RC2 ever did.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Got to love that German version of English!  

I wrote to them about the USS Kearsarge kit a while back and got a response, too. It was not rude but very emphatic that the kit was going to be a reproduction of the refit version rather than the ACW version (in other words, just like the original kit from the '60s).

You're right: at least they write back.


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

A lesson RC2 should learn. I guess if they just got mad at the pestering, and said piss off, at least they would be responding.


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## SteveR (Aug 7, 2005)

It takes more effort to respond in a language that is not your own. Good on Revell Germany. And they were polite, too.


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## Nova Designs (Oct 10, 2000)

That's actually pretty cool. A very personal and not form letterish response. I can see they have a point too, and understand their market. We are, in fact, a very small minority. Although I bet everyone would be surprised if a really good and accurate Blockade Runner were released.

I wonder how well the FM Falcon is selling?


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## sbaxter (Jan 8, 2002)

Interesting that they not only replied _but_ actually addressed your request specifically _and_ even gave you a heads-up as to the existence of another company that might fill your request (given that unless you specifically mentioned the example of FineMolds, they couldn't presume you would know of them). Granted, FM isn't in direct competition with them, but it was still above and beyond for them to mention another company that might like your money. Kudos to them!

Qapla'

SSB


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## Dr. Brad (Oct 5, 1999)

Not what we wanted to hear, granted, but like everyone else I'm impressed that you got a personal response!

Brad.


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## capt Locknar (Dec 29, 2002)

Kudos on a Personal Response. RC2 should take lessons, I mean after all doesn't RC2 boast that customer service is their number one priority (yeah right and I have a body like the Incredible Hulk)


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

John P said:


> ... and told them I was happy they were making Star Wars kits, but I wish the second wave hadn't been ships we already have from Ertl, and that they'd make a Blockade runner and Medical frigate next.
> 
> Here's the response:
> 
> ...


 

Hmmm...

So they are basically saying:

We want to give you the kits you want to buy, but we have to make the kits that we think will sell even more - i.e. concentrate on the young child market.

Does this sound familiar?
Famous last words...



Has anyone ever proven that the young child market even exists?!?

Yes, if most of what you make and put in the mass market are simplified half-models, half-toys they will sell.

But that is because *that* is what they are making!!!
How can they tell what will sell if they don't make it????

Besides that, most of this so-called child market is non-existent.

It's really a market of adults buying models for kids most of whom can't sit down long enough to eat dinner muchless want to take the time to build them.

It consists almost entirely of *ADULTS WHO BUILD - OR USED TO BUILD - KITS AS A CHILD, BUYING KITS* for their children, grandchildren or friends' children.

They probably have fond memories of sharing the hobby with their dad or other family members/friends and are buying what they would like for the child.

How many of these kids actually ever take up the hobby and/or buy more kits, and on top of that are actively asking and clamoring for a certain kit?

Virtually none.

How many kids have you seen lately go over and look at and buy/talk to one another about model kits?

How many have the patience for the hobby?

Yet hear is another company making kit decisions based on questions directed to child focus groups when in fact the people buying the kits for them are the parents and grandparents.

People like you and me.

I've bought more then a few kits to give away to girlfriends and relative's children. While I have never bought a twelve year old a three foot long battleship with 500 pieces, I have never bought them something as simple and infantile as a snap together pre-painted kit. Even a twelve year old deserves something nicer and more challenging then that!

Why would anyone even consider that as much a model as a toy???

Why do these companies keep devoting huge amounts of effort to the child market, a market I seriously doubt even exists?

Modelers and former modelers buy virtually all the kits for the kids. 

I don't see anyone selling too many models made of balsa-wood frames and tissue paper - though I think Testors even made a couple of those of Star Wars subjects - I was shocked when I saw them. I'm not saying they should be making kit's that difficult to build.

But they could make the kind of kits that adult modelers like(the people actually making the buying decisions) without making them ridiculously complicated(but perhaps detail-able via add-on parts?) then modelers would buy those for kids as well as themselves!


Even if these companies believe that the "child market" is a huge part of the hobby(never seen any evidence of that) why are they constantly making them more and more pre-painted and snap together kits that you might literally be able to train a chimp to put together?

Is this just yet another example of the dumbing-down of America?


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

Nova Designs said:


> That's actually pretty cool. A very personal and not form letterish response. I can see they have a point too, and understand their market. We are, in fact, a very small minority. Although I bet everyone would be surprised if a really good and accurate Blockade Runner were released.
> 
> I wonder how well the FM Falcon is selling?


Agreed on the Blockade Runner and a couple more subjects.

The problem is these companies are probably only asking either kids directly or the general population about the kind of kits they would buy if they were to buy a kit for their child, grandchild.

I'm inclined to believe that very few people in the general public ever buy kits for kids.

It seem much more like that modelers buy the majority of models bought for kids.

Most of the people they are probably asking about what kind of models/subjects they would buy for kids don't do modeling. So not really being into the hobby, when someone asks "What kind of model kit would you buy for your son, nephew, daughter?" they're likely to think" Model kits? What those things you put together with that glue that the kids in the '60's and '70's were getting hopped up on?! Oh, I guess a car or a plane. And make it so they don't have to use that glue those crazy dope heads snort!"

Such people would rarely think to even buy a model for a kid and are only considering it because they were asked.


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## capt Locknar (Dec 29, 2002)

Ya know you should put that into a letter and send it to Revellogram or RC2 (like RC2 would even listen anyway but revellogram might)

You have some very valid points up there and I dont' want to steer away the thread but yeah your right, Kids today only think about video games or beating other kids up to feel more important.


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## PhilipMarlowe (Jan 23, 2004)

Nova Designs said:


> I wonder how well the FM Falcon is selling?


I haven't heard anything one way or another regarding sales, but it sure seems like everyone still has them available........


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

P.S.

It was nice of them to give you a personal response. Congratulations to them on that. I'm just sad to see that yet another company is giving in to the idea that the majority of the kits made need to be done simply enough for an 8 year old to snap together.

If they instead made kits that were more challenging and of subjects adults are interested in and would also like to buy for their children they would be surprised how many more kits they would sell.

The kids aren't making the buying decisions for the most part. Yes, perhaps if they were guinely interested in modeling they could pester their parents for it. But how many times have you seen the average joe's kid pestering a parent for a model kit in Walmart?

Toys, yes. Model kits, not so much.

They should decide if they want to make models or toys.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

capt Locknar said:


> Ya know you should put that into a letter and send it to Revellogram or RC2 (like RC2 would even listen anyway but revellogram might)
> 
> You have some very valid points up there and I dont' want to steer away the thread but yeah your right, Kids today only think about video games or beating other kids up to feel more important.


If John P. could email me the address(snailmail or electronic, whichever he used), I'd be glad to.

At least these guys seem to listen to their customers, even if they might not ultimately agree, perhaps they might consider changing how they do their consumer research, etc.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

capt Locknar said:


> Kids today only think about video games or beating other kids up to feel more important.


I think there are ways they could be drawn into the hobby.

Most malls with cinema-plex theaters and food courts attract thousands of teens over the course of a Saturday - Sunday.

An enterprising model shop that offered airbrushing art classes that included how to build models and airbrush as art could be used to draw lots of younger modelers.

Perhaps by spending a small segment of the class on body-airbrushing.

Have a 25 year old really attractive woman in a reasonably covering bikini as the subject and the instructor do the body painting at the end of the class in a picture window facing outward into the mall.

I know at 13 or 14 years old I would have been begging my parents to give me the cash to take an "art class" like that! :lol: 

And, as the great philosopher Bill Crosby used to say before each Fat Albert cartoon, "and maybe they'll even learn something before it's done!"


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## ClubTepes (Jul 31, 2002)

I would actually like to know what AMT/Ertl's and now RG's "market research" really is, and how do they come to the conclusions that they come to.

EVERYBODY, from us modelers to the hobbyshop people I know say that its not kids getting these kits, but more 'adults'.

What info are we missing, or what info are they 'ignoring' to get away with producing essentially cheaper kits.

Are kids truly buying more kits or do the manufacturers just say that they target kids because they don't want to invest in more expensive more detailed kits?

Perhaps, because only the 'kid' kits are available, and because of that, adults are forced to buy the kid kits, they percieve that only kids buy them.


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## ClubTepes (Jul 31, 2002)

When I sent my last letter to AMT/Ertl, I draged out two FSM 'most wanted kits' surveys where the Blockade Runner was listed in two back to back surveys.

I wonder how they can ignore things like this.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

ClubTepes said:


> Perhaps, because only the 'kid' kits are available, and because of that, adults are forced to buy the kid kits, they percieve that only kids buy them.


Or they buy none. Or buy kits that have already been produced but are out of production via Ebay, etc.

That also cuts down on the number of new kits adults seem to buy.

They can't measure adult sales they didn't make because the product was never brought to market.

I too have asked at hobbyshops around town and have been told the same thing - it's the adults buying kits. Sometimes they are buying them for kids, but the kids don't ever come in asking for a particular kit anymore.

In fact, at Hub Hobby in New Orleans several years ago they stopped letting kids come into the shop at all without a parent as kids were shop lifting glue, etc.

Their sales went way up after that as the regular adult customers came by more often and stayed and bought more during the hours when there used to be school kids in the store.

Again, after banning kids from the store without their parents, sales went UP - not down!

Go figure.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

capt Locknar said:


> (yeah right and I have a body like the Incredible Hulk)


 Me too, but it's getting awfully smelly out there in the shed. I'd better bury it soon.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

As to the address - I googled up "revell of germany home page", found the "contact us" link and filled out their email form.


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## capt Locknar (Dec 29, 2002)

John P said:


> Me too, but it's getting awfully smelly out there in the shed. I'd better bury it soon.


Thats Just so wrong LOLOL :freak:


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## Capt. Krik (May 26, 2001)

Chuck_P.R. said:


> Has anyone ever proven that the young child market even exists?!?


In defense of Revell of Germany, the market for kits overseas is a lot more kid aggressive than over here. One of the reasons the foreign model makers can produce more product aimed at youths is the kids over there buy more models than the kids in this country. 
While I also believe that the "young child market" for kits is indeed small here in the states, over there it represents a large part of their profits.


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## El Gato (Jul 15, 2000)

sbaxter said:


> Interesting that they not only replied _but_ actually addressed your request specifically _and_ even gave you a heads-up as to the existence of another company that might fill your request (given that unless you specifically mentioned the example of FineMolds, they couldn't presume you would know of them). Granted, FM isn't in direct competition with them, but it was still above and beyond for them to mention another company that might like your money. Kudos to them!
> 
> Qapla'
> 
> SSB


 Well said. It was mighty big of them to reply _specifically _to John's letter.

José


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## terryr (Feb 11, 2001)

Check out this site.
He is taking preorders for a kit of a 'consular ship' that you may like. 27 inches long- 350 bucks. As you may know I was scratchbuilding one, and his looks pretty accurate.

http://randycooper.blogspot.com/


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## 747 (Oct 11, 2001)

terryr said:


> Check out this site.
> He is taking preorders for a kit of a 'consular ship' that you may like. 27 inches long- 350 bucks. As you may know I was scratchbuilding one, and his looks pretty accurate.
> 
> http://randycooper.blogspot.com/


 Excellent - But where's the ambassador?


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## limbfilter (Jul 27, 2005)

lego didn't have any problem making a blockade runner...


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## TAY666 (Jan 8, 2000)

Capt. Krik said:


> In defense of Revell of Germany, the market for kits overseas is a lot more kid aggressive than over here. One of the reasons the foreign model makers can produce more product aimed at youths is the kids over there buy more models than the kids in this country.
> While I also believe that the "young child market" for kits is indeed small here in the states, over there it represents a large part of their profits.


Thank you.
As I was reading this thread, that thought kept going through my mind, and I was going to mention it if no one else had.
I know from several online friends, and also people that buy stuff from me, that over in the EU there is a very strong child/teen market for models.
That is why you see this stuff coming out from Revell-Germany not Revell.
Between what they can sell over there, and what they can export over to here, they can justify making more kits that we would be interested in.


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## Ensign Eddie (Nov 25, 1998)

Sorry to resurrect such an old thread, but I was wondering if anyone has actually taken a look at these kits. I know they are out there from several places.

Ironically enough, the best online deal I've found (except for the Falcon) seems to be from Hobbylink Japan. Whodda thunk?


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## Zombie_61 (Apr 21, 2004)

Ensign Eddie said:


> Sorry to resurrect such an old thread, but I was wondering if anyone has actually taken a look at these kits. I know they are out there from several places.
> 
> Ironically enough, the best online deal I've found (except for the Falcon) seems to be from Hobbylink Japan. Whodda thunk?


Yes. There are several on-line reviews of these kits and, so far, the response among adult modelers is not particularly favorable.

For the most part, there are too many similarities between these Revell Germany kits and their inaccurate MPC/AMT counterparts. These are new masters and molds and the kits are (for the most part) smaller than the MPC/AMT kits, but Revell Germany allegedly used the exact same source material from Lucasfilm as MPC/AMT to create their kits, and they were contractually obligated not to deviate from that same source material--in other words, they were not allowed to make corrections. So, even though they're smaller and have been engineered to simplify assembly (snap together), details and dimensions are just as noticeably wrong.


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## Ensign Eddie (Nov 25, 1998)

That's too bad. And strange. R/G needs to get the Fine Molds' contract writers.


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## toyroy (Jul 17, 2005)

Zombie_61 said:


> ...Revell Germany...were contractually obligated not to deviate from that same source material--in other words, they were not allowed to make corrections...


I wonder what the deal with Lucas is, here? I know he has kids. What DO parents today think of their kids building models?


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## toyroy (Jul 17, 2005)

PerfesserCoffee said:


> Got to love that German version of English!...


Especially, in comparison to the gutter-chic illitero-phonetic Pidgin English popularly foisted on the internet.


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

^^ In English for us !


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## Zombie_61 (Apr 21, 2004)

toyroy said:


> Especially, in comparison to the gutter-chic illitero-phonetic Pidgin English popularly foisted on the internet.


And they thought _Ebonics_ was a bad idea...


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## toyroy (Jul 17, 2005)

Capt. Krik said:


> In defense of Revell of Germany, the market for kits overseas is a lot more kid aggressive than over here. One of the reasons the foreign model makers can produce more product aimed at youths is the kids over there buy more models than the kids in this country.
> While I also believe that the "young child market" for kits is indeed small here in the states, over there it represents a large part of their profits.





TAY666 said:


> ...I know from several online friends, and also people that buy stuff from me, that over in the EU there is a very strong child/teen market for models...


I'm curious about the reason(s) why American kids have lost interest in models. Does it have anything to do with the emergence of kit collecting? Do Europeans collect kits? 

When I was a kid, a model kit was just a box of plastic parts; if the model didn't come out satisfactorily enough, you bought another kit. They were cheap enough, and there was _no_ thought about how taking the cellophane off, or taking the parts off the trees, or otherwise _playing_ with it would cost you thousands of dollars in ten or twenty years.


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## terryr (Feb 11, 2001)

Lucas doesn't even use models in his movies anymore.

Kids used to carve boats from a piece of wood, but we needed to have kits made for us. Todays kids have even less real skills, and pretending with a computer is just as good or better than playing with a model.

And manufacturing copies of a disc is much cheaper than building steel molds for injection.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Actually, Roy, my local hobby shop manager blames the rise of high-quality action figures, and video games. Kids want a replica of someone or something, there's generally a toy or action figure available that the lazy little bastich doesn't have to build and paint himself (and I understand that - I got amost of the AA TOS Trek figures and the Moore Buffy figures)(a lot of toys and figures are orders of magnitude better than they were just a decade ago). And of course no self respecting teenage boy is gonna have the time to build a model when he's too busy challenging his past scores on his X-Box.


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

I know how games can take up your life, I now have the internet to do that. But at least I build models!


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## toyroy (Jul 17, 2005)

Good stuff, guys. More pieces of the puzzle.

I, myself, got to a hobby shop today(!), and asked some people working there about what kids are into. They said: mostly, RC cars and planes.


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## ClubTepes (Jul 31, 2002)

John P said:


> Actually, Roy, my local hobby shop manager blames the rise of high-quality action figures, and video games. Kids want a replica of someone or something, there's generally a toy or action figure available that the lazy little bastich doesn't have to build and paint himself (and I understand that - I got amost of the AA TOS Trek figures and the Moore Buffy figures)(a lot of toys and figures are orders of magnitude better than they were just a decade ago). And of course no self respecting teenage boy is gonna have the time to build a model when he's too busy challenging his past scores on his X-Box.


I think I agree with the whole 'action figure getting better' mentality.

For me, look at the original SW action figures and toys. We complain about the inaccurate AMT models, look at the toys available then.
At the time, models offered a relativly more accurate representation of the subject.
Its a clear fact that action figures and other die-cast subjects are getting far more accurate and realistic out of the box. And for most people, thats just fine. I admit myself as my life gets busier to buying a few of these things.

But lets look at what got some of us into modeling in the first place. As I said, at the time models offered a more realistic offering of a subject that what a toy did. So I simply think that some of us are more demanding and have higher expectations. And thats what keeps us in models today, because we can still probably do a better job that what comes out of a box.


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## spacecraft guy (Aug 16, 2003)

ClubTepes said:


> I think I agree with the whole 'action figure getting better' mentality.
> 
> For me, look at the original SW action figures and toys. We complain about the inaccurate AMT models, look at the toys available then.
> At the time, models offered a relativly more accurate representation of the subject.
> ...



As action figures got better, the technology that improved them got applied to the toys that were released years ago - so the same molds get reused, but what comes out of those molds has a new, more elaborate paint job or new electronics. Compare the 1979 version of the Millennium Falcon (the action figure sized version) with 2006 version. Hasbro keeps getting asked for a Millennium Falcon along the same lines as their Power F/X X-wing Fighter - more accurate in scale and detail than the decades old "toy" version. As long as they can crank out more elaborate versions of the same toy that sell, they won't invest the money in new tooling for a better 
version. Same rationale applies with the models - model companies think that the North American market won't support models with new tooling, so we get the same inaccurate (but now more expensive) model from 28 years ago, and the European and the Japanese markets get the more accurate versions that we pay through the nose to get. At least the American companies that used to produce the old, inaccurate kits produced them in the USA and were pretty good about customer service - now they come from China, and if you need a replacement part, good luck. 

If you can rip a reasonably accurate, already built model out of a box that is a heck of a lot cheaper than the most accurate model that has to be built and painted (the Fine Molds Millennium Falcon at $200), some choose to be satisfied with the lower cost option. The Art Asylum versions of the Enterprise are a very good example of this trend. Revell Germany decided to follow this trend with their prepainted Star Wars kits - they decided to replace their assembly line worker in a factory somewhere in China with... you. 

Cost and availability are big factors. Models used to be a heck of a lot cheaper compared to their toy counterparts, and a lot more available - your local drug store or hardware shop had them as well as your local hobby shop and chain store. 

The chain stores where I bought models as a kid went out of business years ago, the ones that still exist either have stopped carrying kits (Target), or carry only certain kits, usually cars (Wal-Mart). Both stores set the scale of the kits they sell/sold (small, so they fit into small boxes that don't occupy much shelf space). Which means that any subject that is of a decent size and isn't a car that has an action figure sized super hero to ride in it gets "specialty market" treatment - it's hard to find, and if you do find it, it's expensive.

It's hard to get into a hobby if you aren't regularly exposed to it - hobby stores are becoming fewer and fewer, the few that do exist have to charge much higher prices than the Internet sources. This means that kids don't have a place to go see completed models, and if they see a subject they like, may not be able to afford the kit itself, much less the supplies to build and paint it. I live in the SF Bay Area, and in San Francisco, there is no mass market toy store in the city at all. Toys r Us had one store, and they closed it. There are 3 hobby stores, all in areas that you have to make a real effort to get to, and are small. The nearest reasonably well stocked hobby store is in San Mateo to the south, and Petaluma in the north. 

Who knows, when rapid prototypers come down in price so that a kid can design whatever he/she wants on the computer and then take the file to the local hobby store and have them crank out a model for them, things will change. Building a model will be like one of those "stuff your own teddy bear" operations. l


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## SteveR (Aug 7, 2005)

spacecraft guy said:


> Who knows, when rapid prototypers come down in price so that a kid can design whatever he/she wants on the computer and then take the file to the local hobby store and have them crank out a model for them, things will change.


Yep. Build the model on the computer. Digital scratchbuilding, with virtual drills, knives and lathes instead of the real thing. Design a texture map, and let the inkjet spraybooth paint on the texture map after the digital prototyper is done. Same thing as model building, but with 99 levels of undo! An amazing future, but something would be missing ...

I find kit assembly therapeutic, in that it slows down the hasty computer-driven instant-gratification mindset. It's like a governor for the mind, like meditation. I'll bet that scratchbuilding (or whittling!) is even more so.


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## DinoMike (Jan 1, 1970)

Y'know... I wonder if computer/video games really have had as much of an impact on the decline of the hobby in the US as some think... after all, Japan's just as tech-heavy as the US, yet th hobby seems to be doing much better over there.


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## Ohio_Southpaw (Apr 26, 2005)

The mentality here in the US now tends to be "instant gratification". People don't want to put the effort into doing anything that they can't get immediate results on. Every modeler here will attest to how much they enjoy the challange, but in the overall population we are a very, very miniscule group. That's why you see the pre-painted, snap togethers. That's why the modelling aisle in Toys-R-Us has gone extinct. Kids today don't want to have to invest the time or effort into something when they can go buy it already done for them.


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## toyroy (Jul 17, 2005)

John P said:


> Actually, Roy, my local hobby shop manager blames the rise of high-quality action figures, and video games. Kids want a replica of someone or something, there's generally a toy or action figure available that the lazy little bastich doesn't have to build and paint himself (and I understand that - I got amost of the AA TOS Trek figures and the Moore Buffy figures)(a lot of toys and figures are orders of magnitude better than they were just a decade ago)...


Good point, John. I remember the Remco Seaview and _Lost in Space_ Robot toys: _PEE-EEEEW_! On the other hand, I'm happy with my Playmates Enterprise E.

Another factor is the difference in quality between manufactured, pre-finished models(toys), and model kits. Pre-finished models have always been built robust enough to be handled. On the other hand, many kits, being nothing more than styrene plastic, break if you look at them wrong. Or melt, if you look at them under a light. 

Plus, there has been the attitude that models are an adult thing, because of their real-world engineering, architectural, sales, and museum usage(They're not toys! They're not!). This is similar to the schism between model railroaders(I'm not playing with trains! I'm not!), and highrail, or toy train operators.


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## Prince of Styrene II (Feb 28, 2000)

Chuck_P.R. said:


> Has anyone ever proven that the young child market even exists?!?


Ummm... yea. Just go & look in my daughter's bedroom. She has six built kits on her dresser.

http://planetmyhill.com/Modelmaster/PICS/model1.jpg
http://planetmyhill.com/Samanthaland/Pix/1stModel/SamAndModel.jpg
I love this shot!
http://planetmyhill.com/Modelmaster/MISC/SamTrekModel.jpg
This one is priceless! Look at that concentration!
http://planetmyhill.com/Samanthaland/Pix/1stModel/stickers.jpg
http://planetmyhill.com/Samanthaland/Pix/models/9_06Pose2.jpg

Granted, the kid market isn't what it was, but I do see it at home & even when I go to the store.


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## DinoMike (Jan 1, 1970)

Prince of Styrene II said:


> Ummm... yea. Just go & look in my daughter's bedroom. She has six built kits on her dresser.
> 
> http://planetmyhill.com/Modelmaster/PICS/model1.jpg
> http://planetmyhill.com/Samanthaland/Pix/1stModel/SamAndModel.jpg
> ...


 I think a lot of it has to do with the parents, too. You're willing to get your daughter interested in the hobby, and more importantly, help her build the skills. It was the same when I was a kid... my mom bought & built the old Aurora Spider-Man, Astronaut & Superman kits for me before I was old enough to do the job myself. One I was, there was no stopping me! (Until Real Life set in later on... work, etc.)

Most parents these days, whether outright or by example, discourage developing a hobby that isn't "instant gratification"... mostly by being unwilling to spend ANY time helping the kid.


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## Arronax (Apr 6, 1999)

toyroy said:


> I'm curious about the reason(s) why American kids have lost interest in models. Does it have anything to do with the emergence of kit collecting? Do Europeans collect kits?


Why is there a better market for model kits in Europe and Japan?

Economics. Toy shops have model kits. A model kit is cheaper than a video game. 

Environment. Neighborhoods are friendlier. Kids talk to each other, go outside and play and generally don't sit on their butts watching TV. They compare and participate in each other's hobbies. Can you imagine a kid telling their friends that they spend hours building a model kit? Can you say junior nerd?

TV. When they do watch TV (this applies mainly to Japan), they see the kind of things they can buy model kits of (and you can play with a lot of these kits).

Tiered targeting. There are model kits aimed at different levels so that kids can get into the hobby with a pre-painted snap kit and produce a good looking model before moving on to more complex stuff.

Families. In most other countries, the family is a more stable unit and parents take a more active interest in what their kids are doing. US parents tend to work hard (both of them), veg out when they're not working and when they do pay attention to their children, it's "let me see you do it" rather than a "let's do this together" experience.
Broad commentary, I know, but I'm sure there's some truth in there.

Jim


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## Cro-Magnon Man (Jun 11, 2001)

Even so, model shops are closing down all over the UK; those that stay in business are selling less and less models and more ready-made diecast vehicles, usually military, civilian and sporting vehicles, with realistic mud and weathering effects sprayed on! 
I know of a few people here in the Uk who collect kits, but I'm working my way through my Polar Lights and Monogram stash, and after that I don't know what I'm going to do.


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## Cro-Magnon Man (Jun 11, 2001)

I'm even having trouble finding the Humbrol glue and paints which I need now, too. Recently I drove around three towns looking for any shop which sold Humbrol cement, and in the end had to go to a fourth town to find the cement.


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## Prince of Styrene II (Feb 28, 2000)

DinoMike said:


> I think a lot of it has to do with the parents, too. You're willing to get your daughter interested in the hobby, and more importantly, help her build the skills. It was the same when I was a kid... my mom bought & built the old Aurora Spider-Man, Astronaut & Superman kits for me before I was old enough to do the job myself. One I was, there was no stopping me! (Until Real Life set in later on... work, etc.)
> 
> Most parents these days, whether outright or by example, discourage developing a hobby that isn't "instant gratification"... mostly by being unwilling to spend ANY time helping the kid.


Sadly, I do see this a lot when I'm at work. Too many parents are very passive. But even though, I am encouraged by tidbits I see in the hobby asiles. I saw a Mom who was clearly not educated in plastic, just stare in befuddlement at the displays as her son picked out a kit. At about 10 years old, he knew what he was doing. Granted, Dad may help him at home, but it was a nice thing to see.


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## spacecraft guy (Aug 16, 2003)

Arronax said:


> Why is there a better market for model kits in Europe and Japan?
> 
> Economics. Toy shops have model kits. A model kit is cheaper than a video game.
> 
> ...


Jim, 

Whole lot of truth here. 

I run the Marin County Fair Creatures and Models Exhibit, and I was the one who got a "make it, take it" started for the kids. 

Last one I did was with the snap together X-Wing Fighter kit. Simple kit, easy to build if you take your time and go step by step. Even made a cool certificate of honor for completing the kit. Told the kid's parents they could help, and I would even throw in a certificate for Mom or Dad for helping out. 

I get the event started, tell them it was going to take 45 minutes to an hour, please don't participate if you can't stay from start to finish. One and only one kit for each kid. The certificates are awarded when the kit is finished, not before. Don't jump ahead and snap parts together out of sequence, if you mismatch them you usually destroy both parts when you try to get them apart from each other. 

Half the parents wanted to leave with the unopened kit and a certificate before we started. I said no. Have to build the kit here. You get the certificate when you're done. They say OK. 

They then have the kids rip the boxes open and slap the kit together as quickly as they can, destroying the kit in the process. In about fifteen minutes into the build, they brought their kids up to me at the head table as I was demostrating the proper way to build the kit, each kid with a box of mangled, unusable parts that could have been a nice model demanding a certificate (which I needed to sign) so they could leave, ASAP. They told me that the rules didn't apply to them or their kid. 

I told everyone to stop for a minute and sand their seams and tab stubs. I had to tell these folks who wanted to bail that the certificates would be awarded when the kits were completed - no finished kit, no certificate. And if they wanted to go home now, they would have to pay for the kits - if they didn't pay for the kit now and they left with it, I would have Fair Security take the kits from them as they tried to leave the Fairgrounds. "Make it, Take it" means make it here, _now_, take it home. 

The parents didn't want to spend the time building a kit with their kids. But they wanted a certificate stating that they did. Boy, were they mad when they didn't get one. 

I have a bunch of mangled X-wing parts in my spares box, and this past summer I had the kids build cut out and paste together Space Shuttle Orbiter gliders. Takes 10 minutes to make. 

No certifcates.


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## Prince of Styrene II (Feb 28, 2000)

spacecraft guy said:


> I have a bunch of mangled X-wing parts in my spares box, and this past summer I had the kids build cut out and paste together Space Shuttle Orbiter gliders. Takes 10 minutes to make.
> 
> No certifcates.


Man, that's just sad. You go to a fair to spend some time & have fun with your kids. I'm just bewildered at the thought of parents not even wanting to stop & take 10 minutes to do something with their kids.

Just...... sad.


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

I feel sorry for today's kids. Their memories from childhood, will be the scores from games. Glad I grew up in the 60's and 70's.


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## toyroy (Jul 17, 2005)

spacecraft guy said:


> ...I run the Marin County Fair Creatures and Models Exhibit, and I was the one who got a "make it, take it" started for the kids...


What you were trying to do was really nice. It sounds novel enough, that I'm afraid I can see how there was misunderstanding about your program. I hope you persist, and find a way to make it work.

BTW, I think county and state fairs are a GREAT place for people to experience scale models. I can picture a _Make Your Own Scale Model_ booth succeeding, both in participation, and imparting basic modelbuilding skills.


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## spacecraft guy (Aug 16, 2003)

toyroy said:


> What you were trying to do was really nice. It sounds novel enough, that I'm afraid I can see how there was misunderstanding about your program. I hope you persist, and find a way to make it work.
> 
> BTW, I think county and state fairs are a GREAT place for people to experience scale models. I can picture a _Make Your Own Scale Model_ booth succeeding, both in participation, and imparting basic modelbuilding skills.


Thanks for the kind words. 

I thought along these same lines - but had so many problems. I had to deal with a mother who actually rippped open all the shipping boxes the kits were in and stole as many as she could hold, just after I had brought them out and went back for another load of boxes. She did this right in front of her kids and with the guy from Marin Recreation in the booth next door telling her that they weren't hers to take and that he would call law enforcement. She took off and was gone when I came back, but the guy in the booth next door identified her for the police, I got the kits back.

I went with the paper shuttle gliders because they were easy enough to do for the younger kids, and then they could take them to a nearby grassy field to fly them. They still got to do some basic model building, (they had to form the fuselage and the tail) they didn't take a whole lot of time, the parents could make one with the kid and they could toss them around together. 

This year I'm going to propose a monthly workshop to build a kit step by step before the fair, display the finished model at the fair. Prep and build the first week, fine tune (sanding/filling seams, etc.) the second, prep and paint the 3rd, gloss coat/decal the 4th, etc.


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## toyroy (Jul 17, 2005)

spacecraft guy said:


> ...This year I'm going to propose a monthly workshop to build a kit step by step before the fair, display the finished model at the fair...


Sounds great! Good luck. :thumbsup: I really think there is something exciting about models at the fair.


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## toyroy (Jul 17, 2005)

Arronax said:


> Why is there a better market for model kits in Europe and Japan?...Can you imagine (an American) kid telling their friends that they spend hours building a model kit? Can you say junior nerd?...


As I recall, building models with friends was something I did a lot of, when I was a kid. I don't remember it as a parent-child activity at all. Although, my first model experience was my dad building a Model T kit for me.


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## Roguepink (Sep 18, 2003)

It's the stories like the make-n-take that worry me. I blame the 80's and 90's. Its not the kids of today that I blame for lack of patience, tolerance, or focus. Its the PARENTS of the kids of today who were the first to grow up in an instant gratification and overly media saturated society. That applies to me as well. I thank my own parents every day for giving me the encouragement and TIME to help me develop some useful hobby skills that today are allowing me to support my family quite well. I'm also VERY encouraged that my daughter loves coming to work with me. It's her chance to get her hands on the BIG kids crafts, and at 8 years old, she's showing real talent.

Have to go to HobbyTown now and buy her some model car kits for Hanukkah.

I'm proud.


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## toyroy (Jul 17, 2005)

I still think there's _something_ to the idea that kit collecting has had an impact on the decline of the model making hobby.


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