# AW Update



## tlowe (Oct 11, 2005)

Hello everyone: I read most of the threads and replies on Hobbytalk. I don't have the time to reply to everyone individually but there are some common issues so I thought I would reply to everyone at the same time.

1) Quality Control: We are continuing to work with our factory in China to make the highest quality cars that we can for the money. Keep in mind these are mass produced and don't include expensive hop up parts. AW cars are far from perfect but I think they are a good value for the money.

2) AW Direct: We will continue to build the Auto World brand name by selling products direct to the consumer (we are not the only collectibles company doing this by the way). If you don't like that we are doing this (whether you are a distributor of AW or a consumer) then you don't have to buy from us. You are in COMPLETE Control!

3) Variations: Auto World is not telling you what you have to buy. In release 2 a lot of variations were produced in various LE quantities. If you don't like some of the colors or color combinations then don't buy the cars! If you think they are too expensevie then don't buy the cars! If you don't like the bodies we chose then don't buy the cars! If the quality does not meet your expectations then don't buy the cars! If you think we are wrong by selling products direct to consumers then don't buy the cars. I can tell you that a lot of folks ARE BUYING THE CARS but don't feel bad if you don't. It's YOUR MONEY SO IN THE LONG RUN YOU ARE IN COMPLETE CONTROL!

For those of you that are our customers, like what we do and purchase our products...Thank you for the business! 

For those of you who don't like what we do (for whatever reason) I welcome the criticism as long as it is POSITIVE (of course I realize that most of the "flaming" comes from a selected few with alias names with hidden agendas!). We will do our best to earn your business but keep in mind that it is IMPOSSIBLE to please everybody!

Thanks.

Tom Lowe


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## micyou03 (Apr 8, 2003)

You are right. And that is what I'm doing. I really like the cars and i want to see more coming. I am now just buying what I really like and enjoying the cars I do buy more than when I used to buy full cases.

Keep them comming!!!!!


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## coach61 (Sep 6, 2004)

Build them Tom and most will come, Those who don't can buy them from me in two years at inflated ebay prices because theyare missing them, I was kind of looking at this as a long term send my kid to University thing.. (Yes University not a college College is a trade school get it right people lol)

Dave Scott
Absolutly no agenda other then to race little toy cars.


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## rodstrguy (Feb 14, 2002)

Tom,

I agree with your post, only thing I would suggest is to Thank Those that buy your cars first... Beyond that, I just picked up 8 of the new cars and am waiting on two more, it seems they are selling well from what the Hobby shop owner told me and the fact he was out of several of the body styles. I for one would like to also thank you for the new cars I was able to purchase, and I think they are pretty darn good and look great as well. 

Thanks Again.
Tom


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## Bob Dugan (May 22, 2007)

( If you don't like some of the colors or color combinations then don't buy the cars! If you think they are too expensevie then don't buy the cars! If you don't like the bodies we chose then don't buy the cars! If the quality does not meet your expectations then don't buy the cars! If you think we are wrong by selling products direct to consumers then don't buy the cars. }

Hey Tom 
You seem to be getting alittle cocky..Remember if it was not for little guys like us there would be no you..If I was you I would think before saying THEN DON"T BUY so many times..Remember its your dealers who promote your product for free....Keep hurting them & you will have to spend your own money on advertising ..You say you did this iHobby thing for the collector..All you did was stick your hand in the dealers pocket for 75,000.00 plus $..Now the real collector will pay dearly once these things hit the bay....You say things are good but I see people shying away from your cars..Orders are getting smaller & smaller..Get advise from real people not the Butt sniffer you have around you now..
Remember Piss enough people off & Hobbytalk that always helped you can also turn around & hurt you..
Peace out
Bob Dugan


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

tlowe said:


> 2) AW Direct: We will continue to build the Auto World brand name by selling products direct to the consumer (we are not the only collectibles company doing this by the way). If you don't like that we are doing this (whether you are a distributor of AW or a consumer) then you don't have to buy from us. You are in COMPLETE Control!
> 
> 3) Variations: Auto World is not telling you what you have to buy. In release 2 a lot of variations were produced in various LE quantities. If you don't like some of the colors or color combinations then don't buy the cars! If you think they are too expensevie then don't buy the cars! If you don't like the bodies we chose then don't buy the cars! If the quality does not meet your expectations then don't buy the cars! If you think we are wrong by selling products direct to consumers then don't buy the cars. I can tell you that a lot of folks ARE BUYING THE CARS but don't feel bad if you don't. It's YOUR MONEY SO IN THE LONG RUN YOU ARE IN COMPLETE CONTROL!
> 
> ...


Tom,
I'm really disappointed at the tone of your post. I do not think you did yourself any favors with the attitude which is coming through. I have been reading and posting on a number of the threads. I do not really recall anyone saying the standard price of the cars was outlandish. What I have seen is questions being raised (maybe not in the most politically correct language) about the prices being charged, and the packages you need to buy, for the specialty cars. You have a right to charge whatever you deem is fair; the consumer has the right to make a determination on that price.
Many of us have supported you from the JLs through the latest releases. We bought at least one, if not more, of every car even if we didn't care for it. Personally, I have over 1,000 of your cars. Why? Mostly because we are collectors and have not yet been cured. But also part of it is to support your efforts so you can keep going and to thank you for doing something for the hobby.
However, if you did read through the posts, you should have realized that you made an error by making a White Thunder of every car in release 1 and giving the collector and SUPPORTER of your product no real chance of adding them to the collection. Of course, it's possible to get them all, but the time required and the price that would need to be paid is beyond what most people will be willing to do.
It should also be apparent that a majority seem to feel there are way too many "manufactured" variations in release 2.
So, you should have said "Hey look guys, thanks for buying all these cars all these years. I made an error by not taking into account that many people want to collect these cars and I made a marketing blunder. I've learned and let me find a way to correct this".
Instead, you posted a message which basically says "Hey guys, it's my company and I'll run it any way I want. If you didn't or can't get all the cars you want, too bad. You don't have to buy my product, I'll be fine without you".
It's a very small hobby and a very small customer base. It's an even smaller rabid customer base. I need this hobby to grow as much as anyone in order for our track sales to continue. You didn't do yourself any favors with your post.

Joe

P.S. No alias and no hidden agenda. Just a guy who wanted to continue his collection.


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## Jerome Bee (May 1, 2007)

*Variations and Collecting*

I'm not gonna' make any friends here, but I understand where Tom Lowe is coming from, and I'm not surprised that he seems frustrated. I've been reading this group for a long time. It doesn't matter what he does, somebody gets bent out of shape.

First of all, how many presidents of companies take the time to reply to the consumer??? Coke? Ford? NOT! Sure, Round 2 is a small company but still, Tom takes it upon himself to talk to us. Everybody talks as if he's the guy next door making slot cars in his garage. 

As for the variations, nobody is obligating me to buy them all. I just buy the ones I like and the heck with the rest. If you think a couple "manufactured variations" of each car is bad, look at what Mattel does with Hot Wheels. And look at the prices they want for $1.00 cars that they release in limited quantities in the Red Line club. It's crazy! If I really dig a car, I might buy both body colors and try to get one that I think has the more rare window color. But I don't take it more seriously than that!

I for one like the choice of being able to buy the iWheels directly from Auto World, rather than waiting for a dealer to rifle them from a case and put them on eBay. That SUCKS. The guys that are crying the loudest have something to lose by Auto World trying to level the playing field for consumers.

And I think they did the variations to at least keep something to look for in the regular cars, but in a way that makes it hard to rifle the good ones. I would think that hardcore collectors would try and find only the most rare version of each model - not take it upon themselves to buy each and every variation. I don't think that's the point.

I have now jumped into my asbestos underwear, ready for the replies. Remember, it's only MY point of view.

Jerome


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## RacerDave (Mar 28, 2006)

Wow. That is an interesting post by Tom. It doesn't bother me because I just usually buy two or three cars from each series that I like. But if I was one of these obsessive compulsive types who feel they have to have every car in every color, I think I might be offended and insulted at the tone of his rant. Bite the hand that feeds you. Dave.


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## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)

Thanks for the reply Tom. :thumbsup:

Keep making those X-Tracs and I'll keep buying them. The new GT is terrific! When are we going to see the C5R or C6 Corvettes?

Just a couple obvservations:

1 -- This is the Round 2/AutoWorld HobbyTalk area -- I think it would show a little more class to keep the negativity in check and just present any concerns about AW products in a constructive way.

2 -- I generally couldn't care less about variations and what perceived value they add to my slot cars. If I see a car with smoked windows, a car with blue windows and a car with red windows, I'll buy the one I think is the coolest looking. Tom is right when he says AW is not telling you what to buy. AW is actually giving us options. How many people would piss & moan if a Nomad or Ford GT only came with blue windows? All of the 'clear window' guys and 'black window' guys would be crying a river.

This is not a dig at anyone and I am not an AW cheerleader. I just think sometimes a little bit too much is made of some of this.

Flame me if you wish but that's my $.02 worth.

'doba


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Too funny. Tom I guess next you should offer a 12-step thingy like AA or something. 

:lol:


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## Pomfish (Oct 25, 2003)

Tom,

I understand how you may feel today. You just brought another batch of Slotcars with new molds to market, launched a new way (for you) of marketing and all you are hearing on this and probably other Boards are negative comments.

So your frustration is taken into account.

We here are, by and large, mechanical Geeks by nature, we will find something wrong with the wheel if you give us enough time/Beers 

That being said, I like the new cars overall, have bought some and will buy more, and have no problem with how you want to market them.

Now, here comes the constructive criticism concerning quality control of the AW Tjet chassis.
I, myself will Gladly pay $1 more for a chassis with better torlerances. Better/Thicker Gears, less slop in axle holes and rims that are mounted true.

$1 does not sound like much to most people, but if that $1 is spent at production level, it is a huge amount on a product in this price range.

I can tweak a car and fix most for little if any money, but people like my Brother-In-Law Steve would send a AW slot car back if it sat on the track and squealed because the gear is mis-alinged and either your dealers or you would get a return.

No-one likes returns. Say what you want about Life-Like/Mattel/Tomy, but 95% of the time if you buy their slot cars, it will run and run good the first time out of the package. 
No, they do not have the Pizzaz of the Tjets, but the kids spend more time driving them and Dad spends less time fixing them or hearing about it from his Wife.

Speaking of Wives, they LOVE to return anything that does not live up to their expectations. Just sayin.

Anyway, I hope China can step up and we can all enjoy driving your cars.
Thanks for all you do for the hobby,

Keith


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## sethndaddy (Dec 4, 2004)

No matter what way these cars are marketed, someone will whine and bitch. Tom, just keep making them. Sure I don't like every choice, but your lowest of ugliest cars (lets say the green Avanti) I would still buy before anything tyco/mattel, lifelike or tomy put out in the last few years.
I don't have to kiss Toms butt, he don't make me special cars or give me discounts, but he's doing a damn good job in the slot car world, And I agree, If you don't like it don't buy it.
I usually don't get pissed, and anyone who has met me or deals with me on a more personal level knows I am very fair, easy to deal with, ect. But it annoys me post after post to hear people bitch about Tom's cars or his marketing methods.

I'm glad he spoke up, now I'm off to order my white thunders and blue first laps from his website...........

Ed


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## Bob Dugan (May 22, 2007)

*Profit margin*



sethndaddy said:


> No matter what way these cars are marketed, someone will whine and bitch. Tom, just keep making them. Sure I don't like every choice, but your lowest of ugliest cars (lets say the green Avanti) I would still buy before anything tyco/mattel, lifelike or tomy put out in the last few years.
> I don't have to kiss Toms butt, he don't make me special cars or give me discounts, but he's doing a damn good job in the slot car world, And I agree, If you don't like it don't buy it.
> I usually don't get pissed, and anyone who has met me or deals with me on a more personal level knows I am very fair, easy to deal with, ect. But it annoys me post after post to hear people bitch about Tom's cars or his marketing methods.
> 
> ...


Ed I asume you are a distributor or a dealer..Can you honestly tell me that you don't mind that Tom has put his hand in your pocket with the iHobby Cars..I know my profit margin has dropped considerably..Then to hear him say if you don't like it to bad..That rubs me the wrong way..I have spent many of Hours, Days , Weeks , months & years getting his stuff out in public view at no cost to him..To have him stick in in our backs like this , its not right..At this point I feel all the distributors should cancell all their back orders & let him market & sell it all himself..If you so called distributors would show alittle backbone he would'nt be walking all over us like he is..Remember we are the guys getting it out there..He has forgotten this..He looks like he thinks this stuff sells itself , it don't..Let him sell it all himself , he don't have enough of a following , They could'nt even sell 150 sets of whites today..I'll bet you all of us could have..
Sorry if I sound hostile , but what he has done is outright wrong..
I'm done now..


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## sethndaddy (Dec 4, 2004)

I am not a distributor or dealer at all. I love slot cars, I usually buy a master case of each release, pick out one set for myself, let the kids pick out a few cars they like, then sell the rest for about one dollar over what I paid per car. thats it. I keep the whites I like, sell the ones I don't. thats all, the GOOD in all Toms efforts are always overlooked, and the micro wheel tolerance is thrown in his face. There are great slot car tips to easily tune these cars up that lots of people here share all the time.

The old saying applies, If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything. (but I guess I just went against that, whoops)

Its a hobby, enjoy it.


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## sethndaddy (Dec 4, 2004)

ps: my order just went to Tom for $518.75.

thanks


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

But it's ok for dealers to put the knife in the consumer's back by pulling white's and pricing them wayyyyy over SRP?

But if you don't like the price, you don't have to buy it, right? 

Why does that sound so familiar, like I just saw it somewhere else.... 

You want to sell product...promote racing, they are slot cars after all, not diecast. These cars are capable and it's done all over. How many JL/AW race reports are on this board? Anyone?




......(crickets)......


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## Bob Dugan (May 22, 2007)

Thats fine , but thats what I'm taking about..You just sent him 518.75 that should have gone to a dealer who just spent 20 or 30,000.00 on new inventory that he will now get stuck with usless he wants to sell it for cost..Thats not right..Yes dealers would sell the whites to the collectors for a nice price & then sell the others for an honest price to the real racers..Everyone was happy..Now Tom is scalping the whites hinself & at the same time forcing the collector to buy cars they don't want at retail..This forces the dealers to try to sell the regular cars at a higher price..Looks to me like he is sticking it to everyone ..Tom has really screwed things up now..I trully believe this is the beginning of a downward spirl for AW..
Done ranting..
BD


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## Bob Dugan (May 22, 2007)

Another big problem is the way Tom sells to so called distributors that really are not distributors..Take slots-n-stuff for instince..He is suppose to be a distributor but he only sells to the public not to Hobby stores or dealers..He opens every case he gets sells the whites at a crazy price , then dumps the rest..A distributor is not suppose to sell to the public .only to stores & dealers..That does not create a fair playing ground..Tom has really screwed things up with greed..These are slot cars not Kiddy Litter..


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## mamilligan (Feb 1, 2003)

Maybe we could explore both sides of this post.

I've been buying slot cars for three decades. I remember the bad old days of the mid 90's when all we had was NOS chassis from REH and one or two resin casters. The HO Slot Cars DL went nuts when the first set of pull backs came out. They were hard to get. I have been collecting Tom’s cars since then.

A funny thing happened along the way. I have about 1000 Thunderjets and Xtractions now. Every one of them is a runner. Every pull back has a JL slot chassis. I have about 1000 still in inventory and I've probably sold over 2000. 

It was not always easy to find the cars. I eventually found a distributor and started buying master cases and selling to the locals. It was a break even proposition at best but it kept the cars flowing. It was good to see the hobby grow instead of shrink.

The best part was the steady improvement in quality along the way. The bad part was the price increase. Eventually, the cars were showing up on Ebay cheaper than I could buy them from my distributor. Enough was enough, the local kids could get their own slot cars.

While I have been happy to collect the cars, I think there are a couple valid criticisms and they are both related to the difference in the slot car market and the die cast market. The slot car market is much smaller and most of the collectors are concerned with quality castings not odd variations. I think the high number of variations make it more likely that collectors will give up and stop buying sets of cars. Slot cars are also mechanical devices that are expected to work. If I need to spend a lot of time getting each car to run or buy a bunch of parts to make them work right, I'm inclined to stop collecting. 

Joe and I have traded JLs since we were trying to get all of the 57 'vette variations. I can relate to the large numbers of variations. I have enough of these cars for a life time. I only buy the new ones to keep up the set. 

I'm glad Tom is experiencing success with the new release. I'm glad my favorite memory from childhood can still be bought new. I just hope that he keeps in mind those of us that have been along from the start. It is much easier to keep a customer than find a new one, especially in a hobby as small as this.

-- 
cordially,
Marty Milligan PO Box 434, Falling Waters, WV 25419
http://milligansisland.com/ http://adventureswithbuck.com/ http://byteslinger.com/ http://creepinglunacy.com/ http://mopedia.org/ http://mill-co.com/ http://oarl.org/ http://virtualgarage.net/


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## pickeringtondad (Apr 14, 2005)

*My 2 cents*

Tom saw a need (producing slot cars at an affordable price) and took the steps to fill that need. Along the way Tom's company has had learning curves and it's own bumps and bruises, for which he has paid. Are the cars perfect? no, but their better than nothing, which is what we had until Tom popped on scene. Tom has earned the right to do things his way, with or with out your support and I applaud him for saying so and doing so. 

IMO - Distributors/dealers for the most part are in this business for the cash. Now some may be in this for the love of the hobby, but anyone that ponies up $25,000 or more for a set of cars is looking to recoup that and then some. I don't have an issue with dealers making money, but let's call a spade a spade, it's about the cash. I can understand how they may not like the new policies and how it may cost them some money, but if you take of the end users they'll take of you. 

Now for the end user, I just ordered a complete set of Whities at $25.00 per car or more importantly about $25.00 less than the dealers were requiring me to pony up per car. I have heard many dealers say, "If you don't like the price don't buy it" or "If you don't buy it someone else will". So tonight I feel like Tom saved me $300.00 dollars by removing the dealers from my pocket. Now, I still bought 36 cars from Motor City Toyz and picked up another 12 from another dealer. I have always chosen to support the fair guys in this business that I have meet along the way. (Motor City Toyz, Slot Car Johnnie, ect...)

As far as I'm concerned I buy what I like, from who I like, when I can and I have no issues supporting those that have my interest in slot cars at heart or a least fain that they do. :thumbsup: 

Bob


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## T-Jet Racer (Nov 16, 2006)

*Defective product*

When I buy my brand new slot car and it wont run out of the box can I return it for a full refund? In my experience with your product approx 20 % suck out of the box. It gets frustrating to have to fix a NEW CAR. I do like most of the cars you have made, I disagree with the new marketing plan, I will buy from a dealer or on e-bid, not from the factory store, my choice, I personally would pay 20.00 per car if the quality took a much needed LEAP forward. Also what is with pink was there a special on that paint??? I am not a dealer I am a elevator mech who likes his toys, no hidden agendas. I gladly pay 45 for the special cars on the road race replica site (nu-rora cars injected with color.) I am a customer who is starting to shy away from your product, unfortunatly if there are more like me you will find it dificult to sell your product, if you know what I mean. Please try and keep a level head, listen to the b.s. and try to be proactive. Good luck with your venture I hope thing improve for all of us.
Regards,
Chris Marren


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## Guest (May 23, 2007)

I will throw my 2 cents in here. 

I just bought the set of First Lap and iWheels from Tom and I am happy he offered them to us. I bought my regular sets from Jeff and am happy they will be here soon. 


I see where the "dealers" that make their money from selling the white thunders are going to be upset, but at the same time I don't think they were too worried about other smaller dealers when they turned around and sold the rest of the cars for 3 or 4 dollars less than cost because they made a killing on the whites. I guess it is only unfair when it is you personally, not when you are doing it to someone else.

And I don't believe that the dealers would have sold 150 *SETS* of iWheel cars either.. maybe broken up, but NOT as sets which is why I am happy Tom is doing it, I get the full set without being raped on "Ebay" by someone who pulled them from a case instead of randomly sending them out to their cusotmers in orders as was the intent.


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## micyou03 (Apr 8, 2003)

Ebey has changed everything, and business owners are going to have to figure how to deal with it. It seems to me that is what Tom is trying to do.


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## videojimmy (Jan 12, 2006)

As much as I like the AW's cars, I tend to agree ... the harder iwheels cars are to get, the less I want them. I don't like being forced to buy what I don't like, just to get the few cars that I do want. In the past, I always bought a complete sets of everything they put out, usually more than one set... but not anymore. Too many variations, too many restrictions, too much hassle. So instead of buying the usual 24-30 plus cars, I bought 12, spent almost as much as when I would buy complete sets, only this time I feel like I couldn't get the cars I really wanted, and it leaves a bit of bad taste in my mouth. 

I miss the JL days when you get a case of 12 for 110 bucks. Now, that same 12 will cost you 160 bucks, or more... so naturally OUR expectations are higher, as well they should be. The more money we spend, the higher our expectations are going to be.
We're WORKING class guys, get it? We're not uber rich men like Tom, who are also fortunate enough to make millions on the hobbies we love ... so cut us some slack. 

But Tom is right about one thing, it is our money and his "take it or leave it" approach is typical of most CEO's...so no one should be surprised by that. I for one, choose not to buy as many cars and I can see myself buying less and less ... not because of Tom's attitude, I expect CEO's to be unsympathetic and out of touch with the customer ... but because I don't have unlimited resources and as the prices increase, my money buys less. Now, add in AW's marketing tactics and the product becomes less appealing to me. So, like many others here... I will take his advise, and buy less. 

And here's the real kicker... have you seen what White Lightning have been going for on ebay lately? Cars that once commanded 75 bucks, like the JL WL Mustang, are going for as little as 20 bucks... so it might be best to wait a year or two, or even three years before paying extortionist's rates on ebay

Dealing with the "new" AW is like going to your favorite restaurant wanting to order a steak, and then being told you have to buy 4 orders of boiled squid and 2 tofu burgers before you're "allowed" to order the steak you came there for. 

Hey Tom ... instead of pushing people like me into buying complete sets when we only want one, two or three cars from that set, why not sell ALL the cars individually ... keep the standard cars at 15 bucks and make the first lap cars and iwheels at 30 bucks a car? In the end, I bet you will sell more cars, you can remake only the cars that sell the best, making the less popular cars more desirable to collectors for their rarity ... and everyone is happy. 

In my case, instead of buying the 3 first lap cars I REALLY wanted and the 3 iwheels cars I REALLY REALLY wanted... I won't be allowed to buy ANY of them, unless I pay for the other 6 cars I don't want ... and your response is "take it or leave it" ? 

Ok, it's your world rock star. 

But be careful, you might get what you wish for. Maybe the folks at Tomy will take notice of your booming business and get back into the game on a bigger scale.... then what? 

Will you still be telling us to "take it or leave it"? 

Also, man in your position should learn to have a thicker skin. Condescending attitudes to your loyal customers is the height of CEO arrogance.


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## micyou03 (Apr 8, 2003)

videojimmy said:


> But be careful, you might get what you wish for. Maybe the folks at Tomy will take notice of your booming business and get back into the game on a bigger scale.... then what?



There are posts about just this in another group. I will post links on the collecting forum.


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## T-Jet Racer (Nov 16, 2006)

videojimmy said:


> As much as I like the AW's cars, I tend to agree ... the harder iwheels cars are to get, the less I want them. I don't like being forced to buy what I don't like, just to get the few cars that I do want. In the past, I always bought a complete sets of everything they put out, usually more than one set... but not anymore. Too many variations, too many restrictions, too much hassle. So instead of buying the usual 24-30 plus cars, I bought 12, spent almost as much as when I would buy complete sets, only this time I feel like I couldn't get the cars I really wanted, and it leaves a bit of bad taste in my mouth.
> 
> I miss the JL days when you get a case of 12 for 110 bucks. Now, that same 12 will cost you 160 bucks, or more... so naturally OUR expectations are higher, as well they should be. The more money we spend, the higher our expectations are going to be.
> We're WORKING class guys, get it? We're not uber rich men like Tom, who are also fortunate enough to make millions on the hobbies we love ... so cut us some slack.
> ...


Well put, you obviously are better at expressing the feeling than I was...


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## TK Solver (Mar 18, 2004)

Total nonsense! We NEVER could buy just the WLs we wanted direct from the factory so we haven't lost anything. We now have the added option of buying ALL the WLs if we so choose. So we have more options now than before.

The steak dinner analogy is ridiculous. The AW restaurant NEVER offered steak dinners before. Here's a better analogy. We got their steaks in the back alley from scalping waiters who scarfed them off of plates before they were served to others. Now the waiters are PO'd.

With the popularity and ease of online auctions, AW could simply be acknowledging that people who really want a few of the chase cars can buy a set and auction off those they don't want as much. The choices are still ours.


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## sethndaddy (Dec 4, 2004)

TK Solver said:


> Total nonsense! We NEVER could buy just the WLs we wanted direct from the factory so we haven't lost anything. We now have the added option of buying ALL the WLs if we so choose. So we have more options now than before.
> 
> With the popularity and ease of online auctions, AW could simply be acknowledging that people who really want a few of the chase cars can buy a set and auction off those they don't want as much. The choices are still ours.


EXACTLY, well said. I am not loving throwing around 500.00 for a set of cars, but when you break it down to about 25.00 a car (about what you pay for tomys cars in the hobbyshops) I'll just sell of the ones I don't want at the price I bought them at.

And just one more thing we all have to keep in mind. Tom has been flamed and praised on this board from time to time, he has tried different marketing techniques to please everyone, and for once he speaks up to basically say "Guys I'm trying to please you all, buy if you want, keep your money if you want". I don't think he will lose his customer base.


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## videojimmy (Jan 12, 2006)

No Tk... they just hang steaks in the window, put up a sign that says steaks for sale, and then when you get inside you find out that you have to buy the tofu burgers and squid before you're granted the priviledge of buying the steak. Sorry, but if my mouth is watering for steak, tofu ain't gonna get it done. 

How could it hurt anyone... AW, hobby shops, collectors or racers if the cars were sold individually? AW could still offer discounts on complete sets, while still getting their mark up on chase cars. Hobby shops and dealers can decide which cars their customers want and stock up on those accordingly, the less popular cars would wind up being produced in lower numbers which would only serve to increase their value over time, making collectors happy and racers can buy only the cars they wanted.

Everyone wins, right?


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## videojimmy (Jan 12, 2006)

sethndaddy said:


> I am not loving throwing around 500.00 for a set of cars, but when you break it down to about 25.00 a car (about what you pay for tomys cars in the hobbyshops) I'll just sell of the ones I don't want at the price I bought them at.


It's great you have an extra 500 bucks lying around, so YOU have those options... but about those who don't have that kind of extra coin laying around? Does that make them, their opinions and desires for the cars they want less valid? Some of you guys sure make it sound that way. 

Also, for 25 bucks, you get a much better chassis from Tomy... so that point is moot. 

Also, what makes you think people are going to buy the cars you don't want?
I see the less popular cars going for as little as 6 bucks on ebay... so much for getting back what you paid for them, huh? 

Give the people what they want, cars sold individually and in discounted sets, that way EVERYONE is happy


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## sethndaddy (Dec 4, 2004)

videojimmy said:


> It's great you have an extra 500 bucks lying around, so YOU have those options... but about those who don't have that kind of extra coin laying around? Does that make them, their opinions and desires for the cars they want less valid? Some of you guys sure make it sound that way.
> 
> Also, for 25 bucks, you get a much better chassis from Tomy... so that point is moot.
> 
> ...


In trying to hit on every point, I don't have 500.00 laying around, I use paypal, which is essentially mastercard.
To me a white thunder car for 25.00 IS a far better deal then any Tomy car, but then again, I am all about the tjet/afx racing style. so this points a push.
If people don't want the white thunders I don't want, I'll keep them and pay mr.mastercard his money.

And your last point. sell cars individually and offer a discount for full sets. I agree, this would be a dream come true. And I would have bought 6 Nomads and 12 55 chevys.


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## Steve F (Apr 30, 2007)

My 2 cents
I see that more people are unhappy than happy about his new marketing..Hope Tom reads all the feedback..Hopefully things will get better for all.


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## Montoya1 (May 14, 2004)

I don't tend to the run the chassis as I modify and fit the bodies to Tomy chassis, so the QC issue does not affect me. But I will say if the Super III does not have better quality control then it will crash and burn.

I'm not saying that because AW chose not to incorporate my magnet idea into it, just that it an attempt at a seriously quick in line and should have QC and a price to match those asperations.

The other thing is the situation where occasionally a body ends up sitting way too high, such as with the recent Can-Am. I really would like to see that stop. I can see where a lot of Tom's frustration comes from, but on that one issue any criticism that comes is deserved.

When a company has the chance to see how bad a first article body sits and does nothing about it, it suggests they do not care. I'm sure that is not the case with AW, but you can see how it might look like it.


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## rodstrguy (Feb 14, 2002)

When in this world did it become nessasary that "everyone" was able to get just what they wanted? Your "happiness" is up to you. If there is something that you really want, it's up to you to do what you have to to get it, freedom doesn't mean it's free!


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

*The death of the pancake!*

I've been following along, meddling a bit, and really enjoying this thread. Perhaps order will come from chaos. 

Lets be real guys! The pancake design has more monkey motion than the ape house. Thats not Tom's fault, I credit him solely for keeping it alive.

Think about it. The pancake has many critical close tolerance points, and the whole shebang has to snap together like a perfect Oreo cookie. We all know that close tolerance work takes more time and therefore costs extra dough.

I've got some Tomy/AFX China chassis that just flat rip the track up right out'a the box. The tolerances are tighter than a frogs butt. So I'm not buying the whole blame it on "China Syndrome".

I will however concede that AW is trying to produce an affordable product and the kind of close tolerance work required to bring the ancient chassis design around could easily double retail cost. Lest we forget a looming, monstrous engineering and retooling expense. 

It came to me that AW is caught in the crossfire between the collector 
"leave it on the shelf types", the racers who expect some grunt and performance, the ever rising costs of trying to do business and still trying to keep it affordable for the average Joe slot head.

Again lets be real. There's always gonna be some nit picking over this car, or that color, and why in the heck did ya put blue glass in that one? It has always been such in slot land. Take a trip in the Wayback Machine and remember some of the abominations of the past, if you need a quick reminder. snicker.

There's no doubt that AW produces some finely detailed bodies. What you don't like can be painted, decal plastered, glass swapped to your own personal liking. Again as it has always been in slot land.

I'll now climb further out on a limb and proffer the idea that perhaps a retooled, closer tolerance chassis, for the performance crowd is in order. For myself, and from what others have stated, I'd be willing to pony up for quality. In essence you'd have a shelf version and a street/strip version of the venerable pancake design. Many guys already convert gearsets, arms & magnets, wheels and axles just like it has always been. The underlying problem is that no matter how many parts you throw at it, the chassis and the gear rack are the weak link. Yeah, I know it's a pipe dream.  

Seems like some newspeak Oxy-moron, so I'm not really sure what the term "positive criticism" means, but perhaps one of you new agers can educate an old dog and help me to candy coat my critiques to make them more palatable for the more sensitive types. 

We're not criticizing Toms humanity! We're pickin apart his little cars, such as slot heads have done since the beginning. If there was no whining we'd all still be racing vibes! The AW chassis are irregular and have been for some time!???? an' dat's da truth!  

How these cars are marketed is Tom's decision, we all live and die by the sword. Sins of omission and commission as it were. The ensuing chaos of circumnavigating the "sales chain of command" has ruffled the pecking order a bit.

Sure the gotta do this before ya do that marketing plan is too convoluted for a nimrod like me that wants what I want and doesnt like to navigate an obstacle course to get it.

Be it right or wrong, some how Tom got it in his head that he needed to excercise some control on scalping, stratospheric dealer markups, and auction piracy. As a former businessman I would see this more of in the perspective of what's right then what's wrong. "Hey people really like my cars!" 

I do not agree with trying to control whats beyond my own bottom line, in the thought that it could directly and adversly affect another affiliated businessmens bottom line. Provide a good product, make your sales, and go to the bank if your lucky!

In trying to please all of the people all the time, and police slotcar piracy;
Tom made some unpopular decisions, and only time will tell. 

I would like to point out that by enlarge, if you look back in the AW forum, you'll find an overwhelming amount of positive critiques and kudos. Myself included. I would hope that Tom takes the time to revisit this and realize that the bulk of the flak will pass.  

This forum is an oppurtinity to share ideas, techniques, and opinions. From time to time your gonna get a shot across your bow. I see fire, passion, intelelct, and experience gushing at all times. Granted it's not always politically correct, gracious or candy coated. 

I would again hope that Tom would see that like Bobzilla intimated, slotheads are his greatest development asset/focus group and find a way to glean the nuggets..... and then forgive us....after all we're only human....and like most slotters are goverened by that original ten year old child who got his first car. :tongue:


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## coach61 (Sep 6, 2004)

Bill Hall said:


> I've been following along, meddling a bit, and really enjoying this thread. Perhaps order will come from chaos.
> 
> Seems like some newspeak Oxy-moron, so I'm not really sure what the term "positive criticism" means, but perhaps one of you new agers can educate an old dog and help me to candy coat my critiques to make them more palatable for the more sensitive types.
> 
> ...


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

Well, I read through this thread and it would appear that more people are happy, or unconcerned, with the current marketing and production strategy than are bothered by it; at least from those who have written and expressed an opinion. The marketplace will be the true test.
I only wish to make a couple points:

1) I want to thank anyone who puts up their own money and time to produce something for this hobby. This includes Tom Lowe. He did something no one attempted in about 30 years - reproduce the Aurora compatible cars and chassis. I think he's done a fine job. We may bicker about the quality ( I really am not qualified to make a judgement), but they are mass produced toys and cheaper than any other slot car available.

2) I have no problem with the cost of standard cars. In fact, we should all expect significant price increases as the price of oil rises. Add to that the fact that the US dollar is falling in comparision with other foreign currency means that it costs more in US dollars to produce the same item this year as opposed to last. I remember less than 2 years ago a US dollar was worth almost $2 Australian. Now it's worth about $1.20.

3) I believe the new marketing strategy for AW will fail on a couple levels. And if it does, it could effect the future outlook for continuing production and bringing new product to market. This is just my opinion.

3a) Making the special cars only available as part of a package which needs to bought directly from AW will mean that sets of cars bought from vendors will not entitle you to buy the limited edition cars. This will mean less sales for vendors, vendors will buy less stock and the outlets for the cars will dry up.

3b) I go to a lot of shows. I have yet to see a vendor driving a Porsche he bought from the profits of a White Lightning. IF YOU HONESTLY BELIEVE THAT YOU CAN MAKE MONEY BY BUYING MASTER CASES OF CARS, TAKING OUT THE WLs AND SELLING THEM, THEN YOU SHOULD BE DOING IT. From all the posts, it sounds like a no-brainer. I personally never had a problem with being charged extra for a WL. It saved me from having to buy cases of cars I did not want. And I could decide what I considered to be a fair price.

3c) It seems the new plan for producing many variations is popular, as may be the upcoming policy of random case lots. However, I think you will find it is popular only with those who buy a very limited number of cars in each release. The guys who bought at least one, and maybe more, complete sets of cars will not be happy. So, you have ticked off the guys who were buying one or two cases of each release in favor of those who may buy three or four cars.

4) No one says you have to buy one of everything or even anything. You are in charge of what you buy. It's true. I am in charge.

5) When the slow selling cars start backing up on vendors and they no longer have the WLs to help bail them out, don't expect to see your favorite vendor carrying the next release.

6) When the vendors no longer have their regular customers buying case loads of cars, don't be surprised when they no longer consider it a viable product. At that point, the AW website may be your only outlet, which will mean full retail pricing.

7) I personally like to support my favorite vendors. After the manufacturers, it's because of them that we even have product we can buy. Some do it as a sideline, others do it as a business and have family to support. They have to make the decisions that are right for them, not me or you.


Only time will tell what will happen to the AW line. I could be very wrong and this marketing stategy will have either a positive or neutral impact. However, I just don't see that happening. Time and the market will tell.

Joe


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## mamilligan (Feb 1, 2003)

I think where you stand on these issues depends on how important you think the small dealer is to the hobby. If you came back after the internet you might not remember the days of small mail order companies or the guys that set up at the shows. It was guys like EJs Hobbies that kept a life line open. 

Now that Model Motoring is on the ropes and Auto World has changed direction so only the biggest dealers can survive, the fate of the small dealer is in danger. If you have only bought off of ebay or an internet dealer this might not matter to you. If you worry about who will sell cars and parts when the hobby eventually retracts, then you see things that hurt dealers as things that hurt the hobby and hurt you.

Nowhere is it written that Tom has to be in this for the health of the hobby or the health of the small dealers. Just remember that if the vendors aren't happy, as a consumer you are probably going to see your buying choices reduced.


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## 2.8powerranger (Dec 13, 2004)

how happy would we be if tom quit making these things? think about that.no buisnes will please everyone.people go into buisness to make a profit.bottom line.we're talking TOY cars here,not 10-100 thousand dollar classic cars their his product he can do as he chooses,,its your money ,,,do as you choose.


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## videojimmy (Jan 12, 2006)

rodstrguy said:


> When in this world did it become nessasary that "everyone" was able to get just what they wanted? Your "happiness" is up to you. If there is something that you really want, it's up to you to do what you have to to get it, freedom doesn't mean it's free!



true enough ... but it also means that we can speak out about the things we're unhappy with as well. 

No one is saying that AW can't do what they want ... we're just exercising our right to express dissatisfaction. I love AW's cars, but I won't pretend to be happy about their marketing tactics just to appease a multi millionaire who's fortunate enough to make even more millions off the hobby we all love. 

I think there's a real disconnect between the rich and the working the class in America ... and the "buy them all, or don't buy any" or the "take it or leave" attitudes expressed here is a microcosm of that gap.

"what if AW stopped making the cars, would you be happy then?"

Is anyone here actually dellusional enough to think that AW is making these cars just to make us happy? If they weren't making a profit, they wouldn't be making them at all ... so get real guys. Tom is not the Wizard of Oz, Santa or the Easter Bunny... he's a BUSINESS MAN, and profit is the bottom line. If he was the great benefactor some of you are trying to make him out to be, this thread wouldn't even exist.

AW is making us buy whole sets to get the fews cars we want because he's doing us a favor? Really? I have a bridge for sale for anyone who believes that.


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## noddaz (Aug 6, 1999)

*the thread takes a turn...*



> 1) I want to thank anyone who puts up their own money and time to produce something for this hobby. This includes Tom Lowe. *He did something no one attempted in about 30 years - reproduce the Aurora compatible cars and chassis.* I think he's done a fine job. We may bicker about the quality ( I really am not qualified to make a judgement), but they are mass produced toys and cheaper than any other slot car available.


I guess that Model Motoring was just chopped liver?

Scott


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## Bob Dugan (May 22, 2007)

Well Tom...Since you started selling them out of your Website on Tuseday dealer sales have almost completly stopped..By now I would have had to put in additional orders for more cases , but that is not happening this time..Looks like us dealers are taking a beaten..I trully believe that you have actually hurt sales with your new get rich scheme..Only time & you will know the truth..Sales for Rel 1 were very swift & lasted for months..Reorders were up , not this time..Hobby stores & speedways no longer want to carry your product..Guys like motorcitytoyz & Steve F are already dumping because they are taking a beaten on these & don't want to get stuck with multi thousands in dead inventory..Remember its the dealers that layout all the money to finance your operation..It looks like all the dead inventory will sit in your warehouse now instead of theirs....It looks like a domino effect here..Good Luck on screwing up a good thing....
Bob Dugan


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

noddaz said:


> I guess that Model Motoring was just chopped liver?
> 
> Scott


Scott,
I stand corrected, I forgot all about them.

Joe


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## coach61 (Sep 6, 2004)

Hi Guys one point and the reason I choose to stand were I am. Dealers have always pulled WL, and then marked the hell out them, Tom saw this and said hey my investment I get the majority of the profit I took the chance, you know what he's right... I Feel for Guys like Joe is a bonafide collector most of us are not we just like to bitch and moan. Lets boycot is about the stupidist thing I have ever heard, Lets only Buy Dash, as much as I dislike Dans Buissness practices and attitude you guys still buy and he used to post a lot worse crap then Don't buy 'em. But you all went liek sheep to him, Tom also saw this and is a smart guy whine all you want its smoke and mirrors. I was pushed off the fence as I truely do not care about what color my hchassis is or anything. by a SELLER on here that refused to sell me GT 40's Why? He wanted to try and sell them at inflated prices is all I can figure.. you shot yourself guys live with it...No pity party here...But Hey I do truely respect your right to say Hey I do not like this. I am unsure how this Plan works and have to agree its very strange and not likely to succeed. BUT I do know we'll all be buying again in 3 weeks.

Dealer tip... Log on to AW buy all the cases and Ipod wheels or whatevers and go sell them at inflated prices on ebay like you always have.. you may just not be able to make the product look bad by doing a dump of what ya have left.. Sell smarter not dumber...


Good luck guys.. peace and love.


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

2.8powerranger said:


> how happy would we be if tom quit making these things? think about that.no buisnes will please everyone.people go into buisness to make a profit.bottom line.we're talking TOY cars here,not 10-100 thousand dollar classic cars their his product he can do as he chooses,,its your money ,,,do as you choose.


 Not to be argumentitive, but how happy are you going to be if you have to buy a minimum of 6 cars at a time at full retail, including some you don't want? A collector would buy all six, I'm guessing most people would not. You'd sell the one's you don't like? My guess is that would get real old real fast. Plus, you'd have to sell the undesireable cars for far less than what you paid (otherwise, why buy from you?), thereby raising the cost of the one's you keep. You'll go through the hassle of eBay or buy a table at a show. Seems like a lot of work to get the one or two cars you wanted.
How happy are you going to be if no new cars are produced because there's too much dead stock lying around? Vendors need to make money (or at least break even) too. None of them are going to buy a full case just so you can get your favorite car.
Look how cheap the JL cars are and how many small vendors still have them. If Tom stopped making cars, it would be too bad. However, there are still untold thousands of JL cars still around. Maybe then those small vendors could recoup their investment.
Make it easy and affordale for the collector to buy one or two sets of cars and you move a lot of stock. Put the stock solely in the hands of vendors and watch the orders continue to come.
And remember, although vendors pulled WLs from the cases, you didn't have to buy them unless you liked the price. And then you could buy only the one's you liked. Personally, I think $25 is the highest I ever paid for a WL. That $25 was sure cheaper than buying another case hoping it contained the car I wanted. I passed on the release 1 WLs.
We'll see how it plays out.

Joe


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## rodstrguy (Feb 14, 2002)

videojimmy said:


> ?"
> 
> Is anyone here actually dellusional enough to think that AW is making these cars just to make us happy? If they weren't making a profit, they wouldn't be making them at all ... so get real guys. Tom is not the Wizard of Oz, Santa or the Easter Bunny... he's a BUSINESS MAN, and profit is the bottom line. If he was the great benefactor some of you are trying to make him out to be, this thread wouldn't even exist.
> 
> AW is making us buy whole sets to get the fews cars we want because he's doing us a favor? Really? I have a bridge for sale for anyone who believes that.


VJ, You make my point, Tom Lowe is a business man who has to look out for himself and is not doing this as a favor to us. I commend him for trying to make money at something he likes doing. No, I wouldn't want him to stop making cars and actually hope he comes through with 1/32 cars too. 
I guess it is because I don't have to have every variation that his marketing strategy doesn't bother me. I'm just glad he isn't forcing me to buy a slot car for $20 like Model Motoring did that wouldn't run at all when I can get a car for $12-15 that I can tweak to run really well. I'm also glad there is a deverse group of dedicated sloters such as yourself that believes we should hash out all there is in the slot car universe. 'Nuf said?


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## tomhocars (Oct 19, 2005)

Maybe the easist solution would be to stop making the whites.This is just a marketing tool to get you to buy every car made.No iw's,no dealers complaining about not being able to make a profit.No consumers saying they are getting ripped off by dealers or ebay.One of the things that you get stuck with as a dealer is that you have to order complete sets of cars, not single models.You can bet in the next few weeks you will see the Ford GT's on ebay and the Chaparral's on dusty shelves.I think the dealersshould be able to order 50 Ford GT's or 25 Nomads or 5 Chaparrals.Years ago the hobby shops could buy t-jets or afx 6 to a box.I ordered the whites just to get the nomad.I'll probably sell the other whites when they come in.The most important thing is to buy these cars because you like them,not as an investment. Tom Stumpf


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## videojimmy (Jan 12, 2006)

Bob Dugan said:


> Guys like motorcitytoyz & Steve F are already dumping because they are taking a beaten on these & don't want to get stuck with multi thousands in dead inventory.
> Bob Dugan



Same with Bud's. I just bought two cars from him, one t-jet chaparral and one X-trac yellow firebird... for 10 bucks each.

Listen, no one is saying that AW can't make a profit, or run their biz anyway they want... and we can choose not buy them. It's shame it's coming down to that though. All AW had to do was make every car available individually, charging different rates for standard and chase cars... and this thread wouldn't have a life. 

GIVE THE PEOPLE WANT THEY WANT! .... or face the wrath of we peasants :wave: 

And what are we debating... the ablity to spend MORE money with AW? 
They left at least 200 bucks of my money on the table with this new scheme, pennies to Tom... but that's real money to us working stiffs.


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## coach61 (Sep 6, 2004)

tomhocars said:


> Maybe the easist solution would be to stop making the whites.This is just a marketing tool to get you to buy every car made.No iw's,no dealers complaining about not being able to make a profit.No consumers saying they are getting ripped off by dealers or ebay.One of the things that you get stuck with as a dealer is that you have to order complete sets of cars, not single models.You can bet in the next few weeks you will see the Ford GT's on ebay and the Chaparral's on dusty shelves.I think the dealersshould be able to order 50 Ford GT's or 25 Nomads or 5 Chaparrals.Years ago the hobby shops could buy t-jets or afx 6 to a box.I ordered the whites just to get the nomad.I'll probably sell the other whites when they come in.The most important thing is to buy these cars because you like them,not as an investment. Tom Stumpf



I like that Idea..I have white paint and even white resin dye, who wants a white Porsche 500 spyder from Stinkwerks? lol.... :wave:


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## videojimmy (Jan 12, 2006)

coach61 said:


> I like that Idea..I have white paint and even white resin dye, who wants a white Porsche 500 spyder from Stinkwerks? lol.... :wave:



ME!.. got pics?


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## Bob Dugan (May 22, 2007)

coach61 said:


> Sell smarter not dumber...


When you layout $20,000.00 or $30,000.00 on a new line & the stuff stops selling in a week or two ,you can get hurt real bad..Your sell smarter not dumber thing does not apply here..A guy lays out this much money to AW & then has the rug pulled out from under him to be able to sell these things that wrong..Yes venders pulled the whites & sold them to the collector collector at an inflated price & then sold the rest at a fair price way below retail to the racers..Their are more racers than collectors..So in turn Tom hurt many more people doing this..The racers are the backbone of slotcars not the collectors..Things were barely working the way they were , now its really screwed up..If the dealers can not move product & make alittle profit AW will have to sell it all themself..


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## SplitPoster (May 16, 2006)

Interesting and frustrating thread.... many of you guys are so involved, so mentally, emotionally and fianancially "investesd" in AW.... There are other options, and more coming.

My own observation as a career salesperson on packaging, "bundling" and promoting in general. etc.

1. When your business plan involves trying to sell more and more to the same small group of people you are walking a fine line (see this thread!). That doesn't make the club more exclusive, somethin' just gets worn out quicker.... Kind of like trying to get twice the milk out of the same number of cows.... there are limits.

2. You can put a "limited edition" "first run" or whatever label on anything, but materials, workmanship, and originality should set it apart. The definition of collectible is entirely subjective .... I've got a Maisto diecast or two that say limited edition right on the label, so that must be true, right? If you're not appealing to a slightly broader market, your collectible may not be worth what you paid for it.

3. Any time I am required to buy a lot of something I don't want to get something I do, I reassess what I want. Not buying new items anyway. The very premise devalues the rest of the lot. (If you want the waterfront lot you got to buy the swamp and dump with it.... jokes on you, sucker)

I haved fooled with AW very little, I think I'll leave it to "collectors" to fight it out for the "choice" cars and I'll shake my and ignore the rest for now.


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## TK Solver (Mar 18, 2004)

Jimmy, I'm just about to call Bud's. How do I get the special $10 price?


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## videojimmy (Jan 12, 2006)

TK... I got them off ebay..it was his BUY IT NOW price


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## lenny (Feb 29, 2000)

My suggestion to the dealers/distributors is this: don't order the next release from Tom. Look at what HASN'T happened in the past two days and the past 6 months. The iWheels packages haven't sold out, and there were only 150 of each. The first group of First Lap cars haven't sold out yet (6 months later) and there were only 500 sets of those, reasonably priced at $20/car.

That tells me a few things. One is that the market that Tom is selling to is smaller than most people realize. The second thing is that I doubt that Tom can make a go of it if he needs to rely on website sales alone, and if he sticks to selling only packages without making individual cars available. 

So dealers, don't order the next release. Or the release after that. If you're losing money on these cars you should be happy to lay off for a release or two. Let Tom see if he can make it with web only sales after all his distributors/dealers leave. 

Many of you would be simply amazed at how many TENS of THOUSANDS of T-Jet series 3 and 4 and X-Trac series 1, 2 and 3 cases were in the warehouse when Tom sold to RC2. And that was AFTER Tom authorized the sale of thousands of these cars for $3.50/ea BEFORE he sold to RC2.

History is repeating itself.

Dan

Dash Motorsports


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## coach61 (Sep 6, 2004)

Bob Dugan said:


> When you layout $20,000.00 or $30,000.00 on a new line & the stuff stops selling in a week or two ,you can get hurt real bad..Your sell smarter not dumber thing does not apply here..A guy lays out this much money to AW & then has the rug pulled out from under him to be able to sell these things that wrong..Yes venders pulled the whites & sold them to the collector collector at an inflated price & then sold the rest at a fair price way below retail to the racers..Their are more racers than collectors..So in turn Tom hurt many more people doing this..The racers are the backbone of slotcars not the collectors..Things were barely working the way they were , now its really screwed up..If the dealers can not move product & make alittle profit AW will have to sell it all themself..



I do have a question, Did Tom do this at the last second or did he not post that this is how is was to be? I think maybe the dealers should have known this was going to happen, and ordered accordingly. Yes I know you want to take care of the customers and I applaude that. But the Iwheel complicated buy this to get this was a known I would have ordered a heck of a lot less to get a feel, unless of course there were limits in place for vendors. Interesting to see how that goes over, if you knew in advance how the deal was to go that was not selling smarter.

Dave


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## Bob Dugan (May 22, 2007)

lenny said:


> My suggestion to the dealers/distributors is this: don't order the next release from Tom. Look at what HASN'T happened in the past two days and the past 6 months. The iWheels packages haven't sold out, and there were only 150 of each. The first group of First Lap cars haven't sold out yet (6 months later) and there were only 500 sets of those, reasonably priced at $20/car.
> 
> That tells me a few things. One is that the market that Tom is selling to is smaller than most people realize. The second thing is that I doubt that Tom can make a go of it if he needs to rely on website sales alone, and if he sticks to selling only packages without making individual cars available.
> 
> ...


 I agree , Tom can't even sell 150 super limited sets ..From what I have found out, that is all he has sold of the Rel 1 1st lap cars in 6 months..What does that tell you..AW can not & will not make it without us dealers..We are the backbone of his business.We are the guys out there pushing his product..Setting up at shows , selling on the bay , going from store to store pushing them...Doing all the paperwork & shipping...If 1st lap cars were sold to us at normal price we would have sold 500 sets in 2 weeks for him ..Tom is like a stupid dog..A smart dog would never bite the hand that feeds him..Lets see if he can make selling 150 sets every 6 months..DEALERS , SHOW ALITTLE BACKBONE & BACK OFF THE NEXT RELEASES..Then see how Tom tries to kiss up to you guys with incentives..As of now there are no incentives at all..We have done such a good job selling his cars that he has forgotten who sells them & thinks they sell by themself..So let them sell themself..Show some cahounnnnerss..


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## Bob Dugan (May 22, 2007)

coach61 said:


> I do have a question, Did Tom do this at the last second or did he not post that this is how is was to be? I think maybe the dealers should have known this was going to happen, and ordered accordingly. Yes I know you want to take care of the customers and I applaude that. But the Iwheel complicated buy this to get this was a known I would have ordered a heck of a lot less to get a feel, unless of course there were limits in place for vendors. Interesting to see how that goes over, if you knew in advance how the deal was to go that was not selling smarter.
> 
> Dave


 We were promised new chase cars , but it was a big secret..Turns out its a couple of crappy red bottom cars you can't give away..Tom could'nt sell the red bottom cars , so inturn he dumped them on us..He must think very little of us..There's plenty of cars out there to race & play with..Let him sell the next couple of releases himself..


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## pickeringtondad (Apr 14, 2005)

*I agree with Lenny and Tom*

If you don't like what Tom has done, walk away from the product. If you don't like the quality, don't buy the product. If you don't like the changes in selling policy, don't invest in Toms companies products. If you want change, take a stand, and live with it. If you don't like Tom, don't buy his product, it's very simple. 

I follow this policy myself in all areas of my life, weather I'm dealing with folks that I think are two faced idiots, or folks that don't have the decency to return emails after I have placed an order with them or just not appreciative of my current business and past purchases. My wallet always speaks louder than I do. 

I will still chose to purchase what I like, when I like, from whom I like, but that's just me and my silly way of thinking. :freak: 

BTW - Has anyone ever asked Tom as to why he made these changes? Most will say money, but my experience with issues like this dictates that it is usually something much deeper. 


Pickeringtondad
a.k.a. 
Bob


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## videojimmy (Jan 12, 2006)

_BTW - Has anyone ever asked Tom as to why he made these changes? Most will say money, but my experience with issues like this dictates that it is usually something much deeper_

megalomania perhaps? 


just kidding, I couldn't resist :tongue:


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

videojimmy said:


> ME!.. got pics?


No @#$%@ way VJ. Get in line behind me!  

Hurry up Coach, I've got a land yacht, and a four way intersection. James Dean has a date with destiny! :thumbsup:


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## mamilligan (Feb 1, 2003)

pickeringtondad said:


> BTW - Has anyone ever asked Tom as to why he made these changes? Most will say money, but my experience with issues like this dictates that it is usually something much deeper.


My guess is that he was addressing a couple complaints that have persisted from the beginning. Customers complain that chase cars are not chase cars because dealers cherry pick and scalp them on ebay. This is related to the problem of the street price of the cars being much lower than the list price. The dealer can only make money by selling the chase cars at inflated prices. By selling sets directly at list price, sometimes you can boost the street price as customers get accustomed to paying list. 

I don't think it worked that way. The direct sales stole too many sales from dealers and without chase cars to insure the investment, dealers dumped their inventory after seeing slow initial sales. It might be hard to get them back next release. I didn't by any this release and my distributor is still trying to get me to buy his extras.

I don't think chase cars make a lot of sense in the slot car market. It is not like these things hang on pegs at retailers. They are too expensive even at street price and the market is too small for the average retailer to get involved. Maybe a better strategy would be to drop the list price closer to street price and go for volume. Maybe sell chassis and body kits to keep volume up. This is a small hobby but rolling chassis still sell in great numbers.


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## TK Solver (Mar 18, 2004)

MotorCity announced that they are sold out of the TJet sets. Are the cars selling or not? Is MotorCity making any money from this release? Bud's seems to be doing brisk business.

If AW's business sours, what impact would that have on Dash's business or Tomy's business? Seems to me that they should all be pulling for each other (big and small) in hopes that the entire market expands.


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## coach61 (Sep 6, 2004)

Bob Dugan said:


> We were promised new chase cars , but it was a big secret..Turns out its a couple of crappy red bottom cars you can't give away..Tom could'nt sell the red bottom cars , so inturn he dumped them on us..He must think very little of us..There's plenty of cars out there to race & play with..Let him sell the next couple of releases himself..


Thanks for sharing that Bob, it does sort of put a diffrent twist on things..I think it was bad decission on his part to try and do away with a lot of scalping on the dealers part, ( Sorry Guys but just being honest and trying to understand). I have a solution... BROWN PAPER WRAPPING.. order say a GT 40 you get what you get.. lol....no one can scalp, but it would add a extra dollor or two I am sure to everyones pocket all cars would sell for 14.95 or what ever the msrp is. and if you get a bonus car GREAT!. I worked a summe ron a injection mold in University. ( Crappy AVON containers...). and color is color no diffrence in price unless you add metal to it.. So a WL cost the same to produce as a puke green car. so why not? a thanks to all who buy, sell praise and bash.. Might even be fun.


Dave


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## coach61 (Sep 6, 2004)

Bill Hall said:


> No @#$%@ way VJ. Get in line behind me!
> 
> Hurry up Coach, I've got a land yacht, and a four way intersection. James Dean has a date with destiny! :thumbsup:



Inner poured.. still peeved at the detail so get the small engraver out lol..


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## coach61 (Sep 6, 2004)

*Local Hobby shops.*

One other thing, just something I see happening.

Neils Wheels in Plano is were I go to race, Neil is a straight up guy with a small hobby shop I like to supprt as often as I can. Neil knows my Family and I by name when we stop in which isn't all that often (6-8 weeks). Neil also will sell white lightings for the SAME price to regulars as regular releases.. if dealers had not have said OH MY I spent all this money dump dump.. the street price would have never colapsed anyways and this whole thread would be moot. Is 15 all that bad for a slot car? Tomys run around 25 with tax. Life like about the same , lets see Dash sells bodies for I think ten I have never bought one so don't really care to know. No wadd 10 bucks for a NOS chassis and you have 20.. MM and a few desiigners are all more then any of the above.. I think the comsumers nned to have the boycot.. not the dealers.. Boycot any dealer who sells above MSRP and watch the whole line stabalize. Tom hopefully will see what the market can really withstand and do more with less. I know I love buying the dumps as I love to repaint anyways so no big to me, If Jeff wants to have a WL good for him 15 bucks, I want to repaint well crap my idea will cost me a few more bucks at 15 but heck its still bargin. Tom does need to kick a few factory butts He's paying them his hard cash to produce its up to them to meet tolerances at least a bit closer.. No one is right no one is wrong.. I think a good check list of ideas is what we need to do.. and in saying that I will start.


1-If you can't behave, send me your slotcars.
2-If you can behave and are just as baffled as me at the mud slinging.. send me your slot cars.
3- If you won't send me slotcars I take cash, paypal check MO and Creit cards.


Glad to see everyone lightning up btw I was pretty embarassed for the hobby by some of the chest pounding.. lol.. 

Peace and Love brothers and Sisters.


Dave


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## aelancaster (Apr 8, 2006)

AMEN Coach. :thumbsup: 
Andy


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## mamilligan (Feb 1, 2003)

coach61 said:


> .. if dealers had not have said OH MY I spent all this money dump dump.. the street price would have never colapsed anyways and this whole thread would be moot...


I'm sorry but that is simply not so. Every slot car release has dropped in value and most of them have sold substantially below MSRP. I think the case can be made that these cars are over produced and can't sustain the MSRP. If this is true, the dealers have a legitimate gripe.

It is orders from distributors and dealers that allow manufacturers to invest in new products with the certanty they will sell.


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## ParkRNDL (Mar 20, 2002)

I like to play with little cars. Auto World has this cool line of little cars that they keep making new bodies for. I keep buying them. The ones I like, in the colors that strike my fancy. I like Auto World.

The slot car hobby is a tiny little niche, and the population of this bulletin board is just a teeny tiny little sampling of people who belong to that niche. Maybe I'm delusional, but I think that overall, there are more people like me in the hobby who just like to play with little cars than there are people with the Hot Wheels collecting mentality--"I gotta have every variation of every car that they produce or my life is incomplete. Dangit, if they dare make that any harder for me, I'm gonna go find something else to collect. That'll show 'em." And it WOULD show them, if the only people who bought these were complete-set-collectors.

But I think (and again, maybe I'm delusional) that AW gets plenty of sales from people like me, who buy little toy cars to play with. Giving them more choice is a good thing, I think.

I also recognize that AW probably gets lots of sales from people who buy complete sets, and these are good customers to have because they buy 12 or 24 cars at a time, whereas people like me buy 2 or 3 or maybe 5 if the paycheck was good this week. Maybe it's a bad idea to tick these people off by making them buy 48 or 72 cars to get a complete set, or making it impossible to know if you have a complete set in whatever you buy so now you have to hunt for 2 or 3 of them. Losing them as customers would mean losing some big sales.

But I believe (there's that delusion kicking in again) that this hobby is more about people who buy them to play with them, and that's where most of these cars end up finding homes. Does the brick-and-mortar hobby store that actually carries these sell more as sets or as singles? I wouldn't know because there are none of those stores around here. It would seem to me that people who buy sets probably buy them online anyway. And if the people browsing for a car or two in brick-and-mortar stores have a little more choice, then great for them. I'm not sure how the new policy will leave anyone stuck with anything, unless Joe's Hobbies gets a master case that has all Willys panel trucks and Studebakers in it... the fanatics will buy a few, and Joe will be stuck with the rest. But is that what the new policy is saying, that the actual models of cars in each case are random and you COULD end up with a whole case of the same thing, or is it just the colors (or the window colors) that are going to be random? Or is it some other distribution policy that's ticking people off?

I think I'm going to go play with my little cars now. :tongue:

--rick

(Afterthought: Okay, it's not entirely true that I only buy 2 or 3 cars at a time. I've been known to buy an inner on occasion when I have the dough. mamilligan has actually sold me a couple. hey marty :wave: But I don't think that not knowing exactly which variations are in a case would keep me from buying a case. If anything would keep me from buying, it's the daughter that needs braces... or the car that needs tires... or the kids that need sneakers... or that pesky electric company that keeps sending bills...)


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

Bob Dugan said:


> Show some cahounnnnerss..


 Please NO! I don't want to see anyone's cahounnnerss. LOL

It is not a bad thing that Tom offered the iWheels as a complete set; in fact it's a good thing. The problem, in my opinion, is he should have used his established vendor network to do it. If you want the whites, he is requiring you to also buy the regular cars from him - if you buy them from a vendor, it doesn't count. If you were a vendor, how would you feel about that?
I actually have no problem with having to buy a set of regular cars to get a set of iWheels. That makes it a lot easier to get them. I see the problem in that the vendors are getting shut out of the process and AW is asking near scalping level prices at the outset. When vendors have them, there is price competition and deals are offered.
I'm guessing that the iWheels will cost about $23 a piece when ordered directly from AW. That is in addition to the full retail price for the regular cars. When you figure that you used to be able to buy the regular cars at a discount, especially by the case, you really need to add the extra cost of the regular cars to the cost of the iWheels. If you compare what you paid for a WT before (during the age of scalping) to what you will pay now, I believe you will be paying the same, if not more.
And, how much more does it cost to produce an iWheels car? I'm guessing it's minimal. The iWheels could have been used as an incentive (and a thank you) for buying full sets of regular cars without charging such a premium.
I just looked at the website and there is a list of the variations for release 2 and how AW will not release production numbers. This is to "increase the fun" of finding chase cars and determining "rarity". I have to ask, who finds it fun to track down chase cars? Obviously, there is a rather large philosophy gap between AW and myself. I like collecting cars, but I'd rather spend my time running them. If you have cars and want me to buy them, don't make it difficult. Why would you do that?
And if you only sell the cars in lots of six, how am I suppposed to buy individual cars? Oh, that's when AW needs the dealers. Or I can wait for the cars to show up on eBay.
No one has to buy anything and if I don't like it I don't have to buy. Yes, I know. But if you wanted to see AW succeed, and have the flow of new cars continue, I just don't think this is the way to get it done.

Joe


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## videojimmy (Jan 12, 2006)

Again I ask.... how does selling the cars individually hurt anyone?
Frankly, I don't see it... and no one has addressed this question.

Anyone? 

Dealers can order the cars their customers want. 

AW moves more product and they can still charge more for the chase cars and other speical cars.

Racers and collectors can buy only what they want, without the resentment about being forced to buy several cars they don't want, just to get the few cars they DO want. 

If a collector wants to pay more for his little treasure, he can. 

Everyone wins, no?

If the goal is to expand the market, wouldn't creating a policy that puts more cars into more people's hands be the smart move?


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## T-Jet Racer (Nov 16, 2006)

videojimmy said:


> Again I ask.... how does selling the cars individually hurt anyone?
> Frankly, I don't see it... and no one has addressed this question.
> 
> Anyone?
> ...



If they sell them individually they can't make you buy all of them...I think they should have held 1/2 the i robots and last laps and gave the rest to the distributers. They could have sold them to the die hard buy all cars guys thru thier site, and with some in the master cases some would have hit the ebid.


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## RacerDave (Mar 28, 2006)

Jimmy, nobody can answer your questions because you make too much sense. Reading through this thread it seems Tom has alienated and agravated the very people who he has made the most money from in the past. These of course being the dealers and the completist collector. I am neither of those. It will be very interesting to see how this plays out. Dave.


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## lenny (Feb 29, 2000)

videojimmy said:


> Again I ask.... how does selling the cars individually hurt anyone?


Do you think Tom wants to get stuck with the dogs??


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## noddaz (Aug 6, 1999)

Well...
This thread has gone on and on.
What's next?
Scott


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## Piz (Apr 22, 2002)

Dan ,
How about some more 68 road runner teaser pics !


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## Jerome Bee (May 1, 2007)

For those of you wanting to buy single iWheels - this is straight from Auto World's press release, posted on their web site some time ago:

AFTER 30 DAYS has elapsed, and SUBJECT TO AVAILABLE REMAINING STOCK, collectors may also purchase iWheels Racers as follows: Order all six standard production cars at $14.95 each, and have the opportunity to buy up to five (1-5) single iWheels Racers at the price of $29.95 per car. One of each car only - no multiples of the same car will be allowed. iWheels Racers must be purchased at the same time as the qualifying set of standard production cars. Subject to remaining stock, collectors will still be able to buy complete sets of iWheels Racers through 'Option A' after 30 days has elapsed. Clams and jewel cases cannot be mixed. Standard release cars with chase elements are included at random and are NOT guaranteed.


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## coach61 (Sep 6, 2004)

noddaz said:


> Well...
> This thread has gone on and on.
> What's next?
> Scott


I thought we should have a get together at your house and admire your well disp[layed art work.. wink wink.... :thumbsup: 


Coach


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## videojimmy (Jan 12, 2006)

Yeah, but the "dogs" would become more valuable because they would only be produced in the first run... once they're gone, they're gone... Collectors love that stuff. Look at the Aurora Sand Van and see what a new one fetches now for an example of what I'm talking about. Bulky, top heavy, ugly... and worth big bucks.

Since AW is helping to create the "investment" aspect of the hobby with their exclusive marketing scheme... this argument should appeal to them. 

PLUS, the high selling cars could be have a second or third run, again... 
it's a win-win for AW, dealers and customers. 

AND... he could always offer complete sets to those who want them, AND charge double for the individual chase cars. In my case, I only want 3 of the first laps and 3-4 of the iwheels.... but no way will I submit to buying 12 cars when I only want 6 or 7.
I work way too hard to waste my money on things I dont want... so I took Tom's advice and didn't buy them. 

You know if it weren't his post, I might have broken down and given in... but there's somthing about a company telling me to "take it or leave it" that really pisses me off.


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

videojimmy said:


> You know if it weren't his post, I might have broken down and given in... but there's somthing about a company telling me to "take it or leave it" that really pisses me off.


 Agreed.


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Geez Joe, when people were suggesting to you what track pieces you should be making, you told them (politely, I'll note) what you would and would not do. Anything is possible, buy it's your product line and you made the calls. You should at least respect Tom's decisions regarding his products as you would expect people to respect your decisions regarding yours. I'd love to see an 8' Tomy straight, just cuz you won't do it for whatever reason you have doesn't mean I'd resort to attacking you, I still respect you for what you have done for the track side of the hobby.


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

SwamperGene said:


> Geez Joe, when people were suggesting to you what track pieces you should be making, you told them (politely, I'll note) what you would and would not do. Anything is possible, buy it's your product line and you made the calls. You should at least respect Tom's decisions regarding his products as you would expect people to respect your decisions regarding yours. I'd love to see an 8' Tomy straight, just cuz you won't do it for whatever reason you have doesn't mean I'd resort to attacking you, I still respect you for what you have done for the track side of the hobby.


Gene,
You are comparing apples to oranges. Can you actually compare me to Auto World? That's like comparing Auto World to GM (although AW may have a higher profit margin right now - LOL).
First of all, I have not attacked Tom's product line. Show me one post where I complained about, or actually attacked, his actual product. What you will find is my concerns about the marketing technique. I also had a bad taste left in my mouth from his intial post.
As I mentioned elsewhere, maybe one negative post too many set him off. Nobody likes to be bashed, especially when you invest your time and money. I'm guessing he now realizes that maybe he should have calmed down before posting. None us know how many negative e-mails he has received. It still doesn't excuse that tirade on a public forum where you are addressing your customers.
As to the track, you have to realize that I am not doing the track as a business. That is my own money taken from my own back account from a 9-5 job I work. They are stored in my house. There are no preorders. I have limited financial resources I can throw away and even less physical storage space. You also need to realize that track does not sell anywhere near the way cars sell and each piece of track requires it's own mold; a very expensive undertaking. I can't reuse a mold to make different color schemes or issue "special editions". (Well, I actually could make some special edition pink track, but I'm guessing it wouldn't go over very well). One mold - one piece of track.
I can't make a single piece of track that mates to Tomy, Tyco, Lifelike and Aurora. I need to make a seperate mold for each one and my customer base is limited to those who own that particular track system and actually want that piece of track. Most HO cars run on anyone's track - the entire customer base is open to AW and all the other manufacturers. 
Here is the biggie - vendors do not order track from me. In order to get the track out to the customers, I actually GIVE the track to certain vendors and only expect payment from those pieces that sell. They can return them to me at any time without charge. In 3 years, I have only moved a few hundred of the thousands I had to make in order to get the price into a reasonable range. My money, my basement space. Maybe years (decades?) until I recoup my investment.
That is putting my money where my mouth is and trying to make a contribution to this hobby.
If I could get preorders for certain pieces of track, I'd start on them tomorrow. Even if I only broke even. And I would listen to my dealers and distributors - they are the one's who make it possible for me to know I can move large amounts of inventory.
How many times have I offered to make any piece of track someone would like if they want to put up the money and store it? I don't have the money and I don't have the sales to make every piece of track someone wants. If there were a market for it, I'd make it.
Assuming I had good, brisk sales of track, there are things I would do:

1) Allow customers and dealers to buy only the products they wanted.
2) Never do anything to cause someone to come directly to me for the product instead of my dealers because they would get a better deal or special considerations.
3) Explain why I can't or will not do a certain product. (The mold for an 8 foot straight would be astronomical and the customer base would be very small).
4) If the product is having problems, keep an open line of communication into how the problems are being addressed.
5) Listen to my dealers. They are the one's who will initally buy the product and who are close to the customers. They are taking as big a financial risk as I am.
6) Never ever make it difficult for a customer to buy the product.
7) Don't artifically manipulate the market. I am in the business of selling track, not ticking people off.
8) Never tell my customers to take it or leave it.

Like I said, apples and oranges. These are all marketing techniques, not complaints or cheap shots at the product. I bought EVERY JL and Round 2 car at least twice. I have a lot of money into those thousands of cars. I have never bad mouthed JL or AW. I would have bought a lot of AW cars. I simply wanted an easy way to get the new cars through my favorite vendors without hassle, artifical prices and production manipulation. I wanted to continue to collect them and get some for runners. It really is that simple.
Will I go pout in the corner with my blanket because I can't get every car in every color combination. Of course not. I have a life (and pretty good one)outside slot cars. I like to collect the cars as a hobby, not an obsession. I want to see anyone who produces product for the hobby to succeed. I want to see the dealers succeed so there's more of them and the shows get packed. These were just concerns, constructive critisism if you will, about how I feel good customers (and good distibutors and dealers) should be treated.

Joe


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## neorules (Oct 20, 2006)

The real question here is when will the new chassis with the neos be released?


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Joe, I know you have done a lot to contribute to this hobby and applaud you for that. I am not comparing cars to track, merely the fact that you have your product limitations and so does Tom. Lucky for you, track is not "collectible", lol. (Maybe you shoulda made a few white curves each time).

When you said:



Grandcheapskate said:


> Agreed.


to VJ's post, you basically put your stamp of approval on his attacks, at least that's the way it comes across to me and maybe others.


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## T-Jet Racer (Nov 16, 2006)

Admin, I think it's time to close this post, don't you agree......This is getting real old.


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

SwamperGene said:


> Joe, I know you have done a lot to contribute to this hobby and applaud you for that. I am not comparing cars to track, merely the fact that you have your product limitations and so does Tom. Lucky for you, track is not "collectible", lol. (Maybe you shoulda made a few white curves each time).


What? You got something against pink track? LOL



SwamperGene said:


> When you said:
> 
> I agree
> 
> to VJ's post, you basically put your stamp of approval on his attacks, at least that's the way it comes across to me and maybe others.


 No, that is not what I intended. The post I agreed with simply stated that I would probably have bought the AW cars except for Tom's post which started this entire thread.
I like the product (actually, I love the product) and think the standard car price is very fair. I applaud Tom's efforts and willingness to produce these cars. I even like the fact that I can get a full set of iWheels by buying a set of regular or First Lap cars. That shows appreciation for buying regular cars. I just think the marketing stategy is the wrong one for AW, the small dealer and the customer .
And as I pointed out, I think there is a philosophy difference between myself and AW. I like collecting the cars but do not enjoy spending time trying to track them down. I don't enjoy the chase or figuring out which cars are the most limited. My impression is that Tom believes the chase and rarity game is part of the fun - I don't.
I'm guessing 95-99% of his customers do not care about the chase or the rarity - they find fun in using the cars. As long as they can buy their favorite cars, they're happy. And that's great. Who does care? The collector. Who did Tom really tick off in his initial post? The collector. Who got hit the hardest when there were 24 WTs in release 1? The collector.
That's the same collector who would be the only one to care about iWheels and rarity.
If I could ask - who does find fun in the chase? Maybe I'm alone in not liking the hunt.
I like asking my favorite vendor to sell me a complete set of cars (no matter how many that may be) and then being done with it.
For the collector, the release 1 White Thunders were a disaster. The new method is a big improvement. I just want an easy, direct way to buy a full set of cars for the display case. I still don't think this new method will allow me to do that because of the variations in the standard models. When you order a set of 6, you really don't know what you're going to get.
But if that's the way the company is to be run, that's okay. It is Tom's company to run as he pleases. I'm sure he's a better business man than me - he doesn't have cases of track using up most of his living space. However, he may have alienated many a large purchaser. Maybe that's a big deal, maybe it isn't.
But if and when the fast selling cars get sold out and all that's left in dealer inventory are the slow sellers at full price, and the fast sellers start showing up on eBay at inflated prices, then we are right back where we started.
I have enjoyed most of this discussion because it gives me a chance to see how everyone thinks. It really is surprising to sometimes see the wide disparity in opinion.

Joe


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

T-Jet Racer said:


> Admin, I think it's time to close this post, don't you agree......This is getting real old.


 I do not wish to be rude, but if you're not interested in this thread, why are you reading it?


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## T-Jet Racer (Nov 16, 2006)

Grandcheapskate said:


> I do not wish to be rude, but if you're not interested in this thread, why are you reading it?


I am interested in it but how long can you keep bashing a dead horse?
The more I read it, the more I am forced to agree with Mr.Lowe. It's your cash, do as you wish. I believe that if he is reading these threads he is well aware of the way people feel about his cars, business, quality, value for the dollar etc. If he wishes to make changes he will and it is totaly his decision to do so. 
I have stated how I feel about all of the above and the new marketing strategy, (notice I did not say scheme) I agree with the vendors and hope it doesn't have an adverse effect on them. I bought from 2 different vendors and not from the web site, my choice, also my voice. I will do without the so called collector cars, the same collector J/L whites that are getting dumped on e-bid for peanuts today. I have stated that I believe that he should have split the whites and laps in half and sent some out to his dealers to help offset the costs on the cases.
I think this thread is getting a little nasty , in my opinion. I have no axe to grind with anyone here so don't feel like I am upset by your reply, I am not.
You have the right to feel the way you do about the subject, as do I.
:wave:


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## blue55conv (May 23, 2007)

Gentlemen,

I am a compulsive collector. I started collecting slot cars in the 1980's at the end of Aurora's hey day. Over the years I have amassed a serious size collection. I remember buying a Tyco catalog each Spring and waiting in anticipation for TRU to have them on the shelves. I bought them all. There were only a dozen or so released each year. Later I discovered that I could submit a standing order with Scale Auto for all of the cars to be released. It was a nice feeling to know that I wouldn't be missing out. There were occasional odd variations that were discovered, but they were not planned.

I remember when the first JL pull-back cars were announced. I bought them from a local slot car track. (Yes, I bought them all.) The White Thunders were annoying to chase, but I managed to buy them too. When the local slot car dealer started having trouble getting the JL cars, I tried different mail order dealers. Over the years I have had to switch dealers several times. I buy 2 each of every car. One stays in the package and one goes into a display case. I was able to buy the white thunders from dealers at a premium price. I didn't mind paying extra as long as I knew that I would get them.

This last release was the first time I was unable to get the white thunders. There were way too many. The dealers could not guarantee that they would receive them all. The prices on ebay were way too high. I had to give up. There is a hole in my collection.

I just ordered AW package 3 and 8 to get the Iwheels. I have ordered the standard sets from a dealer. It comes to nearly $1000. There are a few cars in there that I am looking forward to, but a lot of it is unrealistic stuff with white wheels or see through bodies. I buy them to feed my obsession. I am not sure how much longer I can do this. My house is full. I have other collections.

I appreciate the cars that AW is giving us, but I don't want to play a lottery game with the variations. If I put out the money, I want the full set. I used to collect stamps. The US Post Office understood my type of collecting. They offered a mint set each year that had all of the stamps released that year. Other countries offered so many stamps that you couldn't buy them all. Thay had gimmick stamps with holograms and 3D images. I started with 2 albums. The supplements got so thick that I had to buy a new binder each year. I stopped at 12. 

Racers, modelers, and casual collectors may not understand this compulsive behavior. It is hard for me just to buy a few cars that I like. For me the chase is annoying if you can't reach the goal. If AW keeps increasing their release quantities and random variations, I will have to get out. There is no middle ground for me.

Mike


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## hartracerman (Jan 9, 2005)

I for one do not believe "he with the most toys wins". Ijust like to get the ones I like. And where I live I don't have easy access to any suppliers other than the net. I believe the value to the collector will be the ones us average joes run and thin out the collections making what ever more rare just like what happened to Aurora. I am also a muscle car nut so if the subject is not in the vehicle I dont want it. So you guys can have the hummers and tuners and the mom and pop cars. But dont buy the muscle so I can get them. LOL


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## ParkRNDL (Mar 20, 2002)

Grandcheapskate said:


> (snip...)
> I have enjoyed most of this discussion because it gives me a chance to see how everyone thinks. It really is surprising to sometimes see the wide disparity in opinion.
> 
> Joe


Hey Joe, while I'm not in your camp (I buy a bunch of cars from each release as I can afford them, open them, and run the wheels off 'em, and to heck with completeness of the collection), I have to say I really admire your ability to state your opinion in a neutral and articulate manner without resorting to insults or machismo. Thanks for not boldly proclaiming that AW is actually TRYING to alienate its customer base or boldly predicting its imminent demise, like some here have done. I don't know whether to be annoyed at some of the posts in this thread or just laugh. It just kills me that some folks take a change in a corporation's marketing strategy as a personal affront to them, and that they believe that their limited viewpoint of the market and hobby gives them enough knowledge to run AW themselves. I think my favorite giggles are the call-to-action ones... "Hey guys! Let's all boycott AW till Tom runs his company the way we want! That'll show him!"

I don't even really have a problem with Tom's initial post in this thread, though I personally wouldn't have made it myself in that position. If he had posted that message on the opening page of the AW site, then yes, I think that would have been rather inflammatory and condescending. But here in an open forum, where there have been a number of threads calling his practices into question, I don't think it was out of line to reply the way he did. He basically answered the questions with the opening post of this thread. Again, I wouldn't have done it that way, as I tend to avoid confrontation and discord, and I can see where his post would cause some of that. But then I don't know what I WOULD have posted... how do you tell a bunch of people who want you to run your company their way that it ain't gonna happen? I suppose you could just say nothing, but one of the things that people seem to appreciate about AW (and Playing Mantis before it) and these boards is that the company is present on the boards and listens to feedback, albeit in a necessarily limited fashion. From what I've read about the history of Playing Mantis and the bulletin boards that cropped up at its beginning, I have to assume that Tom knows what he's doing...

--rick


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

Ahh Rick,

The voice of reason and temperance. Where the heck where you when the bomb went off? We sure could have used your diplomacy skills! Still it would have been fun to watch them to strafe a few pacifists on their across the board torpedo runs. :wave: 

After a good hot shower and a few hours whittling up some collectables, it dawned on me that none of it matters. I have too many cars to finish anyway!  

What good are brand new pretty little cars to a butcher like me anyway? They're just another guilt bomb when they hit the operating table! :tongue:

Sales tactics, marketing plans, principles and opinions? Gadzooks I'm semi-retarded....er retired - the war is over for me.  Other than killing 'lil cars so's to increase everyone's collector values of course!


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## ParkRNDL (Mar 20, 2002)

I was there, I read it all, I just didn't know what I could say that would make a difference. I don't even really think that my last post did. Your point is actually the better one... none of it matters when you go down to the basement and run some laps...



--rick


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## blue55conv (May 23, 2007)

Gentlemen,

I think we need to understand the different types of people in this hobby. I have read all of the other posts. The dealers want to sell stuff. The racers like to play with the cars. The investers hope their cars will increase in value. The modelers like to create something unique from something common. I think everyone understands those perspectives. The collectors are the ones that are not understood. Even the collectors don't understand why they collect. 

Some of the posts characterize collectors as an oddity. If you don't play with your toys, there must be something wrong with you. If you want a complete collection, you need to get over it and enjoy life. Imagine saying that to a stamp collector. No one judges them for not mailing their stamps on a letter (which is the purpose of a stamp). No one encorages them to really enjoy their stamps by cutting on them or doodling on them. The goal in stamp collecting is to have full pages. We are fortunate that we have several ways to enjoy the slot car hobby.

Now why am I putting this in the AW thread? AW is marketing their cars to the collector. It says "Collect them all" right there on the package. Why do you think they are making limited edition sets of see-through bodies and white wheels? It doesn't make them run faster or handle better. They don't look like real cars. They are supposed to appeal to collectors! Unfortunately, as a collector I don't like all the unrealistic stuff. Maybe other collectors like them. I don't know.

Mike Cook


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## ParkRNDL (Mar 20, 2002)

blue55conv said:


> Gentlemen,
> 
> Some of the posts characterize collectors as an oddity. If you don't play with your toys, there must be something wrong with you. If you want a complete collection, you need to get over it and enjoy life. Imagine saying that to a stamp collector. No one judges them for not mailing their stamps on a letter (which is the purpose of a stamp). No one encorages them to really enjoy their stamps by cutting on them or doodling on them. The goal in stamp collecting is to have full pages. We are fortunate that we have several ways to enjoy the slot car hobby.
> 
> Mike Cook


Guilty as charged. I don't think that I used those exact words, but I can see where that was the message I conveyed.



ParkRNDL said:


> (snip) Maybe I'm delusional, but I think that overall, there are more people like me in the hobby who just like to play with little cars than there are people with the Hot Wheels collecting mentality--"I gotta have every variation of every car that they produce or my life is incomplete. Dangit, if they dare make that any harder for me, I'm gonna go find something else to collect. That'll show 'em." And it WOULD show them, if the only people who bought these were complete-set-collectors.
> (snip)


I was about to try to explain myself, but that wouldn't make it any better. I still don't really see why people are so angry at Tom. But whether I intended to or not, I implied that there's something wrong with collectors who strive for completeness in their collections, and in reading my own words, I see where "Hot Wheels collecting mentality" and its description sound pretty derogatory. I apologize.

Nothing like a little fresh perspective splattered across your windshield... 

--rick


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## blue55conv (May 23, 2007)

Thanks for the reply ParkRNDL. There is no need to apologize. I find it interesting discussing our different perspectives.

I am not angry at Tom Lowe. I really like the muscle cars he has produced. I just wish he would focus on high performance cars with realistic geometry and prototypical paint schemes and abandon the marketing gimmicks. I think racers and collectors would both benefit. If you want to make a special edition car, add more detail, better wheels, and hotter performance. I wish he would take a look at the 1/87 vehicle hobby for some ideas.

I like to compare hobbies. Some concepts and products cross over well, and some don't. The chase car(d) concept is part of the collector card and diecast car hobbies. I am not fond of it in slot cars. I wonder how it would work in model railroading? (You order a train engine and discover it has a white pearl paint scheme with red windows.) Model railroaders want prototypical looks. They don't want surprises. 

I am into both slot cars and model railroading. I am amazed at how the 2 hobbies don't understand each other. My train buddies ask if the slot car track has detailed scenery. My slot car buddies ask if we race our trains.

Mike Cook


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## noddaz (Aug 6, 1999)

*Aw nutz, now I have to wade in here swinging...*



blue55conv said:


> Gentlemen,
> 
> *snip*
> 
> ...


Anything marketed or sold as a "collectible" usually isn't a collectible.
It's just a marketing gimick.......
So, as I end on that note go do one of three things:
1)Go play with your cars. Race them around your track. If you are really feeling silly crash them into each other or make vroom vroom noises as the cars race by. We won't tell...
2)Take your cars off of their shelf or out of their cabinet and admire them.
Look at the fine detail. Admire the shiny paint. And if you want to make vroom vroom noises as you push them across the table go ahead. No harm done. We won't tell...
C)Do both one and two...
(We still won't tell...)

Enjoy your cars guys and gals....

Scott


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

Undeniably there are many strains of "little caritis". Any presumption or speculation as to which groups population is greater can only be acurately determined by a national poll/census.

Like a boulevard that is crossed by many avenues, products made by AW intersect more than one genre of the hobby. 

Distributors and dealers are concerned about the business end, collectors need that missing puzzle piece, racers want good tolerances and chassis QC. I rekon it all depends on whose ox is being gored. 

For Tom, AW's products have appeal to a broad swath of the market. Therefore any decisions made could create backlash in one or more of the intersections along the boulevard. 

If I took anything away from all of this, it was to reminded myself to look through the big end of the binoculars rather than the little end. Like I dont already now that! Duh! 

For me another reminder in the aftermath is to regard the entire context of posts and to read between the lines with broader focus rather than reading between the lines and scrutinizing everything literally.

None of us are Pulitzer prize winning authors, 'cept maybe Coach has a Caldecot award; but for the remainder, the written word and pics is our only method of communication. Sometimes it's hard to get the message or feeling across, and it only gets harder when we're passionate about something. 

I understood your post Rick cuz I've read about a thousand of your other posts. It wasnt what you said that was important it was what you meant that carried a different message. It seems that citing example often leads to misinterpretation of the overall tone of a post. The tree instead of the forest I guess.

You prefaced your comments with "Maybe I'm delusional", so I know not to quote you directly, or not take what you say as gospel. Merely a thought provoking hypothesis for speculation. I understood it as a topic of conjecture.




For Mike Cook: Race my trains? Youbetcha. The train manufacturers annually produce a whole slew of promotionals, special productions, and limited editions that is staggering. Often surprises pop up, but it's your choice to buy them or not. I collect Marklin HO trains, and have some Am. Flyer as well. I do believe/know the hobbies intersect on several levels, because I dabble on both sides of the tracks. Unfotunately the scales dont match up directly, but I feel there are more similarities than differences.

Afterall, landscaping/diaroma is more about illusion and perspective than scale uniformity. I find a blend of all three provides the best results for me.


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## ParkRNDL (Mar 20, 2002)

noddaz said:


> 1)Go play with your cars. Race them around your track. If you are really feeling silly crash them into each other or make vroom vroom noises as the cars race by. We won't tell...


 once again, guilty as charged :tongue: :wave: :jest: :hat: :lol:   :freak:

--rick


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

*True confessions*



noddaz said:


> snip*...1)Go play with your cars. Race them around your track. If you are really feeling silly crash them into each other or make vroom vroom noises as the cars race by. We won't tell...


LMAO Scott! Thanks to you and Rick this thread finally got an injection of much needed good humor.  

Truthfully I'm more of a "Wamba, Wamba, eeeyerch! - waaaah! - squawk- waaaah!, waaaah!, waaaaaaaaaaah!" kind of guy. Note: I add more "waaahs" for five and six speed cars respectively. :tongue:


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

blue55conv said:


> Gentlemen,
> 
> This last release was the first time I was unable to get the white thunders. There were way too many. The dealers could not guarantee that they would receive them all. The prices on ebay were way too high. I had to give up. There is a hole in my collection.
> 
> ...


 Mike's sentiments are very close to my own although I have yet to order any of the new AW cars - either release 1 or 2. I may, and I may not.
It's very possible that if I did not desire to collect slot cars, I might not buy another car. This goes for AW as well as Mattel, Tomy, Lifelike or any of the other manufacturers whose cars I own.
I have more than enough cars that I use as runners to last me the rest of my life. Every car from my childhood is still running (without chopped and mutilated bodies). There are a whole bunch more I've either picked up at shows or were given long ago from people who no longer wanted them. If I bought more cars to be used as runners, I'd probably never get around to using them. I've started selling some of the magnet runners and bodies I picked up in the last couple years simply because I don't get the chance to run them and keep them tuned.
The point I'm trying to make - if it were not for my buying cars for the display case, I wouldn't be buying at all. Certainly no where near the quantity I have in the past.
I have come to the conclusion that Mr. Lowe really puts a lot of emphasis on trying to chase and hunt down the variations and trying to determine rarity. When you read the website, that seems to come through pretty clearly. And there's nothing wrong with that if that is your marketing stategy. However, what works for something like Aurora, which has built up a kind of mystique after 40 years, does not work for everybody. The dollar stores are filled with collectables.
I'm guessing there are quite a few guys like me who don't ever need to ever buy another runner, but did always buy one or two sets for the collections. Time will tell whether AW has lost some collectors with this marketing stategy. At some point, most guys are going to have more than enough runners and then without the collectors, will the sales be good enough to continue to produce new cars?

Joe


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## noddaz (Aug 6, 1999)

*Thats the spirit!!!*



Bill Hall said:


> *snip*
> *Truthfully I'm more of a "Wamba, Wamba, eeeyerch! - waaaah! - squawk- waaaah!, waaaah!, waaaaaaaaaaah!" kind of guy. Note: I add more "waaahs" for five and six speed cars respectively*. :tongue:


Jeez.. I can almost hear you doing this... :lol: 

Scott


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

*I B weird.*



noddaz said:


> Jeez.. I can almost hear you doing this... :lol:
> 
> Scott


The scary part is when I catch myself doing the "wamba" with the wheel barrow or the fertilizer spreader!


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