# Big change at Ebay



## frankenstyrene (Oct 5, 2006)

Just got this email, as others of you probably did...I suppose it was inevitable...



> *Paper payments end this October*
> 
> Beginning late October 2008, all items listed on eBay.com must be paid for using one of the following approved payment options:
> Direct credit or debit card payment via a merchant credit card account
> ...


There's more but that's the gist of it.


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

I didn't get the email (yet?). Honestly I don't care. I use Pay Pal exclusively for my buys and specificlly DO NOT bid on items thatI can't use PP as payment. Likewise, 99% of my buyers use PP and the few that don't are alwyas the deadbeats that mail in payment two weeks late.


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

djnick66 said:


> I didn't get the email (yet?). Honestly I don't care. I use Pay Pal exclusively for my buys and specificlly DO NOT bid on items thatI can't use PP as payment. Likewise, 99% of my buyers use PP and the few that don't are alwyas the deadbeats that mail in payment two weeks late.


im a powerseller with feedback of nearly 16g, and i agree completly...except.. i just dont like having the option taken away.


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## Styrofoam_Guy (May 4, 2004)

Some people can not get a credit card or want to hook up Paypal to a bank account.

I guess the want to force people to use Paypal so they make more money.


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

Half the time I set up my acutions Pay Pal only anyway. I guess it sux if one person can't get set up on PP, but there are no shortages of buyers (and sellers) that do use it.


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## Just Plain Al (Sep 7, 1999)

I won't bid on an item that is PP only, if I can't use a postal money order I don't need it. My brother has a store, he's leaving as well Since I only buy 12-15 things a year I won't miss it, gives me more time for other things.


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## Jaruemalak (Jun 12, 2008)

this whole thing doesn't bother me at all. Whenever I sell, it is PP only... been burned way too many times before. And I prefer to use PP to buy as well. I think, in the past two years I've only paid with a money order once.

However, I agree... it is nice to have the option.


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## geminibuildups (Apr 22, 2005)

I already accept PayPal on most of my items. The problem I have with the new poilicy is being forced to accept PayPal on a high priced item and have them charge me the PayPal fees IN ADDITION to their final value fees ---- which they have just raised. I have never had anyone complain about sending money orders in the past. 

They are also going to start enforcing restrictions on excessive shipping fees which sounds like a GOOD thing. Nothing like seeing a nice little $10.00 item with a $50.00 shipping charged tacked on. But Ebay is being dishonest with all of this "positive buyer experience" stuff. It is purely for the purpose of making more money since Ebay owns PayPal. There is nothing wrong with making more money but they should just stop pretending that this is not the reason for the change.


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## UniversalFan (Aug 18, 2008)

As a ebay buyer I refuse to give PAYPAL access to my bank account routing numbers

so I guess me and ebay are going to be parting ways 

I'm sure if anyone emails a question to the seller and ask if they will accept a Postal money order would you refuse it? no pay pal fees taken from the sellers sale of an item
which means more money in the sellers pocket. 
UniversalFAN

TO:

djnick66 

99% of my buyers use PP and the few that don't are alwyas the deadbeats that mail in payment two weeks late.

Sir I assure you I am in the 1% that you quoted abouve and I have a 100% track record
you might put that at 99.5% yes there are some dead beats out there but in all not that many most dead beats will have a 0 - rating


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## kit-junkie (Apr 8, 2005)

I've used PayPal from the start. No issues here. I don't even look at auctions that don't accept PayPal. It's too much of a hassle purchasing a money order and you have to wait for checks to clear. I'd rather pay and have it over with. Plus, there is a record of the transaction, on both ends, that can be referenced later if needed. I don't mind paying a few extra cents for the transaction.


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

What is funny is the hypocricy that comes out in posts about eBay trying to make money. Its a BUSINESS and its THEIR business. Everyone here has gotten killer deals off eBay, which is why we keep going back. If you sell a $10 kit for $75 dollars, so what if you pay an extra .783% here or there. You still made a whopping profit. eBay is still very successful, despite all the bitching and moaning. People always have the option NOT to use it. I hear a lot of complaints that eBay isnt as good now becuase too many people use it... so maybe some of them drop out thats not a bad thing either. but in the end its THEIR business and they can set their own policies.


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## frankenstyrene (Oct 5, 2006)

djnick66 said:


> but in the end its THEIR business and they can set their own policies.


True and I agree 100%. But it IS nice to have that m.o. option. The fact that the (now) only real alternative is owned by ebay...well, it smells, but it's their biz.


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## geminibuildups (Apr 22, 2005)

Plus ...... those "killer deals" may become harder to find when the seller has to give up another 3% of his profit just to accept payment.


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## MadCap Romanian (Oct 29, 2005)

Ahhh....back to the good ol' Mail Order days.


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## TAY666 (Jan 8, 2000)

geminibuildups said:


> I already accept PayPal on most of my items. The problem I have with the new poilicy is being forced to accept PayPal on a high priced item and have them charge me the PayPal fees IN ADDITION to their final value fees ---- which they have just raised. I have never had anyone complain about sending money orders in the past.


Well, get ready, because they are also raising the FVF yet again.


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## TAY666 (Jan 8, 2000)

UniversalFan said:


> As a ebay buyer I refuse to give PAYPAL access to my bank account routing numbers
> 
> so I guess me and ebay are going to be parting ways
> 
> ...



The only problem with that, is that from what I am reading there will be no more direct contact between buyers and sellers other than through ebay.
No more emails will be given out for either one.
And ebay can monitor the correspondence and sanction those who go against their rules.
Also they will be looking at any sales that don't have a corresponding PayPal transaction.
Sellers found to be violatiing the rules will be kicked off.

So much for only being a venue.
Looks more like Big Brother to me.


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## PhilipMarlowe (Jan 23, 2004)

Yeah, @bays pushing this "give free shipping" because shipping doesn't figure in the FVF.........yet.


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## Jodet (May 25, 2008)

Anti-trust is using your power in one market sector (online auction) to FORCE people to use your other business (online payment). 

This blows. And ebay s/b ashamsed of themselves, but of course shame is pretty much non-existent anymore.


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

to those griping about ebay and paypals fees, try running a brick and mortar store, and paying overhead and credit cars services fees. suddenly ebay/paypal looks incredibly cheap. (heck just go sell something on amazon.... prepare for sticker shock.)

got an issue with giving out your bank info? fine. go to your bank and set up a checking account specifically for online transactions. really really paranoid? do it at another bank. that way anyone who hacks it gets that far and no further. besides its a good way to hold to a budget for online purchases. 

y'know i am sick to death of having to re-answer questions in my messages 
because buyers have their spam filter set up to include everything from ebay, even while they are conducting transactions on ebay. so i'll be very happy when all communication goes through the "my messages" system. 

again i dislike having the option of what sort of payment i can accept be taken away, but other than that i am fine with these changes, and i do more ebay in a week than most people do in a year.


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

geminibuildups said:


> Plus ...... those "killer deals" may become harder to find when the seller has to give up another 3% of his profit just to accept payment.


If you sell a $10 kit on ebay for $25 big whoop if you have to shell out 3%. What the average schlub doesn't realize is that when you do electronic transactions there are always fees. I run a brick and mortar store and it cost me way more than 3% to do a credit card transaction. You pay a fee just to run the card machine PLUS a percentage of the sale goes to the card company. Thats why I dont do any card or debit sales under $20. And if you ask for a discount on a large purchase or some odd item, don't expect to get the discount AND pay with a card. A friend of mine runs an RC shop and its strictly cash only. If you MUST pay with a card, he tacks on a 15% surcharge.

So paying 3% to ebay after you made a killer sale with 500% profit isnt a fair complaint.

How much would you get for the item at a yard sale?


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## mrmurph (Nov 21, 2007)

Good article on identify theft this morning on msnbc. http://redtape.msnbc.com Under "Dear John" letters. Take it for what it's worth.


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## Hooty (Mar 4, 2000)

Since I already have more "stuff" than I need, I'm not really bothered by all of this. But, if this is going to be the new policy why hasn't E-Bay posted this on it's website? I've looked for it there and can't seem to find anything about it. Are just the sellers getting this notice by email?


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## xsavoie (Jun 29, 1999)

Not everybody is crazy about Paypal.I'm not talking about buyers only,but some sellers as well.Since Paypal is mostly used on E-BAY,or so they say,they should let the rest of E-BAYERS make payments as they please.No one is forcing the sellers to use other types of payment than Paypal.They sould try to control their greed before it bites them back.And yes those of us who pay by mail are quite honest and do not hesitate to send payments right away.Unfortunately,we live in the age of instant gratification.Some people just can't wait a few days for the payment to reach them.From the looks of the E-Mail I've got from E-BAY,this seems to only apply to the sellers from Canada.Is this right.Is it possible to get paypal from E-BAY without a credit card.Would that mean for them to take the funds from someone's checking account.Or could a buyer set up a checking account on E-BAY with limited buying power,of course,up to equal of the amount in the account.Is there a fraud risk in this,and what would be the costs to the buyer for using this type of Paypal payment option.


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## frankenstyrene (Oct 5, 2006)

Jodet said:


> Anti-trust is using your power in one market sector (online auction) to FORCE people to use your other business (online payment).


Not quite; Ebay is not the only place on Earth we can buy or sell items. Also, Paypal is Ebay, and Ebay is Paypal. It's a business, and lots of businesses have policies that serve to increase their profit. That's the main reason anyone goes into business, large or small. I'm surprised Pay-Bay/E-Pal didn't do this sooner.

Nor is Ebay a monopoly - one hears this often - because 

(1) As stated, there are alternatives to Ebay...the desirability of using them is beside the point, which is that they DO exist and ARE viable. 

(2) Others with drive and ability are still free to create even better alternatives to Ebay than already exist - and they'll listen to disgruntled Ebayers and allow money orders, just wait! 

and 

(3) There is not one person on Earth who MUST have Ebay or its offerings to survive. True, it's a heckuva lot cheaper than selling from brick'n'mortar, as Razor is right to keep on pointing out. It's also a heckuva lot more convenient than almost any other way to buy. But this is not a life and death matter for anyone. "Adapt and overcome." "Find another way." "Do without." "There are always alternatives." 

etc

Now, when there are no alternatives, and the service or goods needed are life-or-death necessities, THEN it's a monopoly. That's just not the case here. Ebay is just the biggest (and presently the best, warts and all) game in town. But so was Ford Motor Company, once upon a time. 

Again, I'm not defending Ebay's practices, particularly this newest one. I am defending their right to run their privately owned business as they see fit. If you and I and enough people don't like what they're doing, we can suck it up and do it their way, try to get them to change their policy, or vote with our feet by finding alternatives, online or off. Or making our own.


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

Whats funny is the ebay and pay pal ads on this page...


right under where it says Post Reply


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

Hooty said:


> Since I already have more "stuff" than I need, I'm not really bothered by all of this. But, if this is going to be the new policy why hasn't E-Bay posted this on it's website? I've looked for it there and can't seem to find anything about it. Are just the sellers getting this notice by email?


they have. at the top click on "community" and then the top entry under "announcements". heres the link: http://www2.ebay.com/aw/core/200808.shtml#2008-08-20070116


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## Roland (Feb 4, 1999)

Ebay has had allot of BIG changes from it's start in 1996.

Paypal didn't exist when ebay started. Ebay was not always exclusively a money thing either. It used to be that allot of the time, the PEZ collectors used to trade as well as buy and sell. 

Ebay was originally created for the founder's girlfriend who collected PEZ dispensers in about 1996. My girlfriend was also a PEZ collector at the time and was the person that introduced me to Ebay. It didn't take long before you started finding other collectibles as well. It wasn't until several years later that Paypal started up and was used for ebay. Eventually Ebay bought the rights Paypal. Now it's part of Ebay and the only way to pay.

Some sellers and buyers can only work only with with cash. Paypal is fast and easy, if you can use it. It would be nice if people had other options. Not everyone qualifies for credit, as was stated in another post in this thread.


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## xsavoie (Jun 29, 1999)

In my opinion,a group of people that are familiar with the workings of E-BAY should start their own auction site that would resemble E-BAY in it's early days.Let's call it E-STORE for now.They could invite almost exclusively the sellers from E-BAY with great sales rating to try their auction site at first.They would also display the sellers E-BAY sales record to attract buyers to purchase from these same sellers.I think it's a fantastic idea since the new site would charge less to sellers,as well as allow many forms of payment,including the mail in types for the buyers.It's about time that the people from E-BAY get their just reward for their greed.


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

I don't know. Over the past 10 years I have made thousands of dollars that I never would have made if not for eBay, not to mention acquiring nearly every collectible grail I had ever dreamed of - which would have been an impossibility otherwise. Yes, they're a monopoly of sorts - but eBay has generated an entire new economy that has been overwhelmingly beneficial to its users. Its hard for me to get too mad at them.


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## kangg7 (Jun 21, 2000)

I'd have to agree with most of what has been said here, with the exception of being placed in the catagory of deadbeet because I've paid and prefer to pay via postal money order.
Every transaction I have had has been sent out within a day or two of the end of the transaction, and my feedback reflects that. If I have the option , I prefer to pay via money order for a couple of reasons. 
I also have a paypal account , but because it doesn't have a credit card attached to it then payments are sent via an "e-check" which takes aslong if not longer to conclude that it would sending a money order.(still don't understand this since everything is supposed to be electronic and thus faster) I make the deposite as quickly as if I were sending a money order, just takes an equal amount of time to finish the transaction, thus eliminateing any benifite.
But please , don't put everyone into one basket because of the actions of a few, in this case or any other. I AM NO DEADBEET!!! I would feel safe to say that MOST who have sent payment via money order are not deadbeets.

Thank you and have an awesome day !!! 

Dave A.K.A. Kangg7


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

xsavoie said:


> In my opinion,a group of people that are familiar with the workings of E-BAY should start their own auction site that would resemble E-BAY in it's early days.Let's call it E-STORE for now.They could invite almost exclusively the sellers from E-BAY with great sales rating to try their auction site at first.They would also display the sellers E-BAY sales record to attract buyers to purchase from these same sellers.I think it's a fantastic idea since the new site would charge less to sellers,as well as allow many forms of payment,including the mail in types for the buyers.It's about time that the people from E-BAY get their just reward for their greed.


its been tried. and its failed. time and time again
heres the problem with your idea. before the sellers go there, theyre going to ask "how many buyers will you attract?" if youre answer is "well we're just starting..." then the sellers will respond "well call me when you get up and running and then we'll see..." the buyers will ask a similar question. its a catch-22.
yahoo is one of the biggest guns on the internet and their auction site is a joke in relation to ebay. if yahoo cant get it together, i cant see independents doing so. 
im in complete agreement with zorro. i just broke 16000 @ 99.8% in feedback. am i an ebay butt-boy? you bet.


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## TAY666 (Jan 8, 2000)

I can see another site actually starting to take hold within the next year.
There are already a couple places that are starting to gain some traction.
What has changed to actually make it possible for these sites? Ebay itself.
It has become increasingly more hostile for the small time sellers.
It is almost like they are intentionally trying to drive them away.
And I can see why. It is probably much easier for them to deal with the large mega-sellers.
And the new CEO has even stated that he wants to get rid of the 'garage sale' aspect of ebay.
These sellers have to go somewhere if ebay is not a viable option for thme.
So many are branching out and going other places now. It is now worth the risk for them.
Especially since sell through rates have dropped through the floor for many of them with the new 'best match' search program on ebay.
Many are actually getting better sell-through rates at the new places (not nearly what they used to get on ebay, but better than what they are experiencing now)

I agree. Yahoo auctions are a joke. Always have been. And I am talking about way back when they actually were more auction like. Now if someone like Google stepped up to the plate with an auction place, I think they could seriously give ebay a run for their money.
They already know how to run a search engine, which is the biggest part of an auciton place.
But I don't see that.
I see a few specialized places gaining footholds in certain nitch areas. Jewelry, clothing, etc. Though there has yet to be a good one for antiques and collectables


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## Roland (Feb 4, 1999)

TAY666 said:


> I can see another site actually starting to take hold within the next year.


None of the other competing sites will be able to surpass ebay for a long time. Ebay was the first in the market and has been the most popular ever since. There have been other competing sites since probably 1997, or so, but, ebay is what comes to most people's minds. Eventually, Ebay will be surpassed in popularity by another company, but, I'm pretty certain it will take more than a year.


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## Roland (Feb 4, 1999)

xsavoie said:


> In my opinion,a group of people that are familiar with the workings of E-BAY should start their own auction site that would resemble E-BAY in it's early days.Let's call it E-STORE for now.They could invite almost exclusively the sellers from E-BAY with great sales rating to try their auction site at first.They would also display the sellers E-BAY sales record to attract buyers to purchase from these same sellers.I think it's a fantastic idea since the new site would charge less to sellers,as well as allow many forms of payment,including the mail in types for the buyers.It's about time that the people from E-BAY get their just reward for their greed.


I remember other auction sites pooping up early in Ebay's history, but, they never had as many simultaneous auctions as Ebay because they weren't nearly as popular.


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

roland touched on another point in ebays favor: branding. when youy sneeze do you ask for a facial tissue, or do you ask for a kleenex (no matter what brand of tissue it actually is)? same goes for jello, xerox, windex, and a number of other products. the name has become synonomous the item. if ebay isnt there, theyre knocking on its door.

tay, i hope they dont push out the garage sale aspect entirely, as ive found a few things there that i really needed. at the same time, the largest percentage of their sales come from their power sellers, so you really cant blame them for changing their policies to favor those sellers. i doubt they will do it anyway, because every power seller starts out with one or two listings and grows from there, just as i did. if they kill off the small sellers, they wont have any new big sellers. and they know it.

theyve had some el stinko ideas in the recent past, but drop them when they dont work. they just killed off ebay express, and i imagine some of thes other new ideas will go by the wayside as well.


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## TAY666 (Jan 8, 2000)

Roland said:


> None of the other competing sites will be able to surpass ebay for a long time.


Never said any of the new sites would surpass ebay.
I do believe that at least one, and possibly two of the newer sites will start really catching on in the next year.
They won't be great for everyone. But they will serve a modest portion of the current ebay market.
The only way I see anyone actually challenging ebay head-to-head in the next few years would be if someone big hits the scene. By big, I mean Google big. Deep pockets for advertising. Name recognition so people trust and know them. And it has to be something that functions reasonably well right out of the gate so people don't get scared off.


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## wiloldmn (Jun 12, 2008)

I also used MO only! with 100% feed back for over 5 yrs! I bought... went and got MO and mailed at PO the same day! this way, the seller would be 2 days ahead of the PO and get payment within 2 to 3 days! That (for the most part) beats a lot of Paypal customers that wait to pay! I just turned in my time to Ebay!! No MO's.. I dont need them!! I was on the site to buy a couple well chosen models from a seller, but seems Ebay wants to ding the sellers and buyers with CC and paypal fees, I didnt buy the kits by the way!!! Happy building, wiliam


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## xsavoie (Jun 29, 1999)

Of course model kits are on my mind,but mostly DVD'S and CD'S interest me as well,as many of you,I'm sure.I think that E-BAY is beginning to irritate the big sellers as well wth their stupid new policies.It's just too bad that the sellers and buyers don't all agree together to stop buying and selling for the next six months,except for the PEZ Dispensers,in order to remind them of their humble origins.


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## Auroranut (Jan 12, 2008)

I'm still buying and selling on ebay .au and I'm still able to accept all types of payment. Ebay keep putting off the "paypal only" policy they're trying to enforce because of the Australian Consumer Commission and the complaints they're recieving. I primarily look at the Aurora kits and the average amount 6 months ago was around 120-150 kits at any time. That number has fallen to around 50-80 kits. If they insist on enforcing their policy we're (the buyers and sellers) are gonna lose out big time!! 
As I've said in other threads, I'm on an extremely limited income due to health reasons and I'm also a very smalltime seller. If I had to rely solely on paypal payments I'd have to wait for paypal payments to transfer to my account (about a week) before I can afford to post parcels. At the moment it's good because I use the bank transfers (immediate payments) to post parcels and I can leave the paypal in the account for more kit buying. If it becomes paypal only, I'm done!!

Chris.


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

wiloldmn said:


> I also used MO only! with 100% feed back for over 5 yrs! I bought... went and got MO and mailed at PO the same day! this way, the seller would be 2 days ahead of the PO and get payment within 2 to 3 days! That (for the most part) beats a lot of Paypal customers that wait to pay! I just turned in my time to Ebay!! No MO's.. I dont need them!! I was on the site to buy a couple well chosen models from a seller, but seems Ebay wants to ding the sellers and buyers with CC and paypal fees, I didnt buy the kits by the way!!! Happy building, wiliam


if more buyers were like you, there'd be a much greater outcry over this. alas, you are exemplary.

xsavoie, basically youre proposing that half of the big sellers to shut down their businesses for 6 months (as ebay is their only outlet). um sorry but i'll pass. 

Auroranut, cant you get a paypal debit card and use that for postage? i have one and that means instant access to my funds. is that not available in au.?

the only change i am upset about is the inability to leave neutrals and negatives for buyers, because it unbalances the playing field and leaves me open to feedback blackmail. im far more upset by the post offices changes than i am about ebays.


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## Auroranut (Jan 12, 2008)

razorwyre1 said:


> Auroranut, cant you get a paypal debit card and use that for postage? i have one and that means instant access to my funds. is that not available in au.?
> .


I'm not sure. I'll have to check it out. Thanks for the heads up.:thumbsup:

Chris.


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

ebay is downplaying the "paypal only" policy big time. i received a phone call from ebay yesterday where the gent was telling me all about the exciting new changes ebay had in store for power sellers yada yada yada... but he didnt bring up the paypal only policy until i did. if i hadnt have mentioned it he wouldnt have brought it up at all. they know they are on thin ice with this one.


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## 420 Tech R/C (Sep 15, 2006)

I think alot of you guys are right, ebay is going to see an alltime low this quarter. I know just at looking at the listings in the catagoriy I sold in ( r/c, toys and hobbies) the amount of listings has decreased a bunch.Around 25% less I would say.I know alot of sellers quit when I did when the new feedback policy and the new seller protection policy went active. There's nothing like selling something and not getting paid for it for 2-3 weeks, or selling a NIP item and having it returned used and broken and having paypal grant a refund ,but deny your claim under seller protection. If ebay is really trying to do away with the whole garage sale image ,Then another site WILL prosper because there will always be a market for used items.ESPECIALLY in the r/c world where technology changes about every 6 months or so. As all of these changes take effect it WILL be harder and harder to find those great deals that made ebay so popular .


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## Auroranut (Jan 12, 2008)

That's right 420 Tech R/C. I buy and sell old kits and other stuff I find at garage sales. I'm not a big buyer or seller, but I deal with the collectible end of things. If there's no old kits to be had, I probably won't bother with ebay. I doubt I'm the only one who would drop them......

Chris.


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## xsavoie (Jun 29, 1999)

I didn't realize that some sellers were so dependant on E-BAY.I thought that it was only extra stuff they were trying to sell.Of course there is nothing to stop a seller from selling on another site first,which would offer the choice of paying by mail,and if the seller does not succeed in selling on that site,then try E-BAY soon afterwards.Of course,the idea would be to pass on the word on that other site.I'm surprise that nobody else has tried to imitate E-BAY on the way they post bidding items.


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## TAY666 (Jan 8, 2000)

xsavoie said:


> I didn't realize that some sellers were so dependant on E-BAY.I thought that it was only extra stuff they were trying to sell.


You would really surprised at how many people depend on ebay for their livelyhood.
That is their entire source ofincome. Or a significant second income for a household.

Another thng that is going to cause a ripple effect on ebay are the new shipping maximums.
In case you missed that part of the announcemnt, ebay is telling sellers how much they can charge for shipping in some catagories.
IF you list in those catagories they you have to offer at least one shipping option below the maximum set by ebay.
Good idea in theory to cut down on the sellers listing things like DVD for $1 and then charging $20 for shipping. Unfortunatly, most of the maximums ebay set are below actual costs.
http://pages.ebay.com/sell/August2008Update/MaxShipping/
Some of those are impossibly low.
Which is also turning sellers away. Sellers who deal in rare and hard to find books, albums, etc.
Many of the things that drive buyers to ebay in the first place because they can't be found on the mainstream sites like Amazon.


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## Auroranut (Jan 12, 2008)

Sometimes I wonder if ebay are intentionally trying to disembowel themselves...:freak:

Chris.


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

the shipping maximums only apply to books, videos, video games, and music.
in that case, the seller must offer one option within the minimum (media mail), but is free to offer other additional shipping services (priority, express, ups, etc.). as i sell how-to books and videos, this affects me, but in a minor way. all i need to do is add the media mail option, or add $1.00 to my book prices. i plan to downplay the media mail service, but must offer it. i think most people will opt to pay the additional $0.95 and get their book in 3 days rather than 10 days for media mail anyway. 

ebay is getting more totalitarian yes, but they are still the very best site of their type.


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## TAY666 (Jan 8, 2000)

True, they only have to offer one option that uses the minimum.
But some items will cost more than the minimum to mail, no matter how you mail it.
Example: catalog has a maximum of $4.
How are you going to ship a christmas catalog (like an old JCPenny's catalog) for that price?
It can't go media because it has advertisements in it.
For as much as tha is going to weigh, there isn't another option that will ship for $4.
Same for magazines. They also cannot ship media mail because of the ads. And some of the really nice ones are pretty heavy and will cost more than $4 via 1st class mail. Let alone trying to cover any costs for the packaging itself.

One that really gets me is bulk books. 
101-500 = $20.
So they are saying you should be able to ship 500 books for the same price you can ship 100.

Vinyl record = $4.
How the heck are you supposed to ship an old fragile (and thick) 78 for that kind of price?
You need to box it up with a lot of padding to ensure it arrives safely.

Basically sellers in these catagories have 2 options.
Either add in your costs to the item price (and pay fees on it). 
Or use media mail and risk damage to the package contents, and having dis-satisfied customers that don't like the long transit times.
Just because you tell them media will take a long time doesn't mean they will be reasonable and not ding your stars on shipping time.
And with the new policy that anyone who falls below a 4.3 on any star getting suspended, that is a real concern.

So, again, I see ebay forcing out the sellers that have the old, odd, and unique items that a lot of people go there for. Those are the sellers that won't be able to operate under the new rules.
The ones that sell a lot of the common stuff, basic DVDs, CDs, cheap books, etc, won't really feel these changes. But stuff like that can be found jsut about anywhere.

And the thing I think ebay still hasn't realized.
Every time they drive away a seller, they are also driving away a buyer.
Most sellers also do a lot of buying on ebay. They are there all the time, they are familiar with how it works, and they run acros a lot of stuff while doing searches to check out the competition.
Once you alienate them as a seller, it's doubtful they will be doing any more buying on the site either.


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## Revo-daddy (Aug 4, 2008)

I am done with ebay. I sold a Revo there to a guy in Canada. The buyer was nice enough and asked up front if I would ship to Canada, and I said that I would. The seller promptly paypals me the funds, and to my dismay I found that paypal is holding my funds for 21 days or until good feedback is recieved. So for as long as 3 weeks I have no use of the product or the funds! Unacceptable to me


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

tay, youve brought up some problems that i hadnt considered, and youre absolutly correct. im miffed that they couldnt have at least set the books minimum to $4.80, which is the minimum priority mail cost. 
y'know now that i think about it, im betting that whoever set these limits hasnt shipped any of these particular items anytime recently.


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## TAY666 (Jan 8, 2000)

Yeah.
At first I thought the limits were something of a good idea.
Not a great idea, but not as bad as some others.
That was until I started looking at some of the minimums, and hearing some of the sellers that deal in them.

Then I realized that some of these are just way out of touch.
The only conclusion I could come to is that ebay didn't do their homework on real costs.
Or, they are trying to force selllers in to putting part of the shipping costs into the item price to boost the FVF.
And frankly, I would not be surprsed to see ebay go a step further, and just start charging FVF on the total cost of winning bid + shipping.


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## frankenstyrene (Oct 5, 2006)

*Idea*

I know there are lots of sellers, maybe including some here, who believe that once a buyer pays, the buyer's job is done. That is, buyers do not HAVE to leave feedback if they don't want to. I never agreed with this, even before I sold a thing and only bought. 

So now that it's impossible for a buyer (even a dirtbag) to receive a neg, would it be of any use for eebay to require all buyers to leave SOME kind of feedback when they receive whatever they bought?

I know eebay won't do this but it seems like a good idea to me. Buyers are immune from retaliatory negs so they can leave feedback without fear. Sellers, most of whom do a square deal, will more than likely get a positive. Transaction's over, everybody's happy.

In the odd case of the dirtbag buyer, the burden of proof is on HIM/HER to show where the buyer was dishonest. Short of that, they have two duties (1) Pay, (2) Leave Feedback. If the buyer doesn't, the seller can file notice with eebay, who then asks the buyer "where's the feedback?" (yeah, I know the question then is, "What if they STILL won't respond?" Good question. I dunno.)

Anyway, it's just a thought. If eebay did do this - and they won't - how much happier do you think everyone would be, compared to now? Buyers who don't get ripped leave the required *+* and go on their way...sellers who do right get the good feedback and percentages they need.


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## frankenstyrene (Oct 5, 2006)

I post this b/c I sold a really nice vintage leather bag almost 2 months ago and the buyer (a newb) apparently has no intention in leaving me feedback. They paid right away and never contacted me about problems with it so I assume my listing was accurate. Just no feedback for me, when I held up my end of the deal. And no, I haven't left them feedback either.

If eebay is going to make buyers immune from negs, they should also REQUIRE they leave positives when the sellers earn them.


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## g_xii (Mar 20, 2002)

One thing I have not seen discussed much here is the "big brother" factor.

Think about it -- how long before ebay starts filing 1099 forms with the IRS for sellers? Then, since some people DON'T pay, and it's such a hassle to get things straightened out on ebay, how much money will you be paying the IRS that would / should not have to be paid?

Ebay is notorious for not researching disputes and taking too long when they do. A determination is made, and that's that. I recently purchased a very inexpensive item, which had $8.00 s/h tacked on to the $2.99 purchase price. The item the seller shipped was the wrong size and very cheaply made. I asked for a refund, including shipping as they shipped the wrong item in the first place. The seller said I could return it, but they would not refund my the original shipping fees and WOULD charge me a 20% "restocking" fee. Oh -- and the return shipping would be on MY dime! This was a power seller, too. The cream of the crop at ebay. What could I do? I disputed it. 

Two weeks later, the seller turns me in for NON-PAYMENT! I had paid through Paypal, and had a transaction number! I sent this to ebay (and paypal) three separate times, and it was ignored each time. In the end, they (ebay) told ME not to do it again - along with a lecture about bidding policy and all that! Unless you are a huge power seller, you can't even TALK to ebay on the phone to get something like this worked out. All emails sent to them go through some crappy automated system that focuses on a keyword or two from your email to them, and responds "accordingly" but incorrectly and always vaguely -- pointing you to "help" faq's on the main website! 

I also find that only about 2/3 of my buyers leave me feedback. Some way to force buyers to leave feedback would be nice!

I also do not agree with the new shipping policy. Who are they to say how much shipping costs? And it's supposed to be shipping AND handling. With gas as expensive as it is right now, what about sellers that have to travel great distances to mail something? In the town where my business is, there is a post office about 4 miles away. No great distance. But it is in a horrible location -- no place to park, and any time you go inside, the lines are terrible. Each trip to the post office involves the wasting of at least an hour of my time, even if I pre-print and pre-pay for the postage and are just going in, dropping off packages. Anything over 13 ounces has to be HANDED to a postal clerk! Well, my time is WORTH something to me! Lately, I've just been using the e-postage option when I sell something, and then I go online and have the post office stop by my office to pick up my packages. It's not like you can just drop things in the corner mailbox, as since 9/11, most of them are GONE! 

It's a shame -- there are more than a few sellers that inflate shipping costs to make more money -- and there are even more sellers that actually PROPERLY package things (which CAN take time!) in order for them to get to the buyer in one piece. I think we're gonna see a LOT of sellers packaging things as cheaply as possible, and buyers are going to get broken and damaged items in the mail. The seller will protect him/herself by disclaiming any and all liability and responsibility in their listings! All of this is going to add a further air of distrust to an already leary buyer environment. 

And is it just me, or do I seem to remember somewhere that NO ONE can refuse CASH? Something about the dollar saying "legal for all debts, public and private" ... Someone told me about this years ago (I think it was in regards to making purchases with the old "car ash tray funds" that sit in your car's ashtry, often consisting of a few singles and lots and lots of change -- well, "lots" depends on the size of your ashtray and whether or not it is being used for it's originally intended purpose, that is!) but I can't remember any specifics.

Is the ACLU gonna step up on this or something? 

Not to mention the sales tax dollars constantly being lost on ebay -- unless it gets sold in your state, you don't HAVE to collect sales tax! I really just can't see that continuing much longer. The states are gonna want to 'wet their beaks' as well. I feel sure of that, if nothing else!

And while ebay is not a monopoly, I think that at some point, out great government will step in and create some very interesting and unique regulations regarding ebay because of the large amounts of money exchanging hands.

It should all prove interesting, either way! I don't like the paypal-only bit, but as has been said, when you're the only game in town, and you make the rules ... !!! 


--Henry


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## frankenstyrene (Oct 5, 2006)

> And is it just me, or do I seem to remember somewhere that NO ONE can refuse CASH? Something about the dollar saying "legal for all debts, public and private"


I think we accepted cash one time, but that was for something we arranged a pickup for. There's no way I would send someone cash, though. No money trail, as with CC, PP, personal check or M.O. I can insure the envelope, get delivery confirmation and anything else I want. All the seller has to say is "Hey man, the envelope was empty - you must have rushed and forgot to drop the cash inside!" What am I supposed to do then? I can prove only that I mailed an envelope, not that anything was in it. Still, my wife thinks she saw somewhere that it'll still be an option if people want to use it in sales. Good luck to 'em, I says.


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## frankenstyrene (Oct 5, 2006)

Sorry to hijack my own thread but here's something else, while we're griping about eebay.

Several months back I sent an email on a seller who claimed to be selling sculpted works of art they made themselves. He/she would produce the same type of item every month or so...they're basically the same, only each one is supposed to be new and unique. 

After observing this person's sales for some time I noticed that he/she was using the same - that is, IDENTICAL - pics for recurring auctions of the same type item. For example, a "uniquely sculpted and painted, one of a kind" Breyer-type horse figure would pop up from them every month or so. And in fact do often sell. But the photos were who knows how old of one that he/she'd sold who knows how long ago. The photo of the one for sale today is the same photo of every one I'd seen him list for many months...identical paint scheme, shot angle, lighting, even the pile of junk in the background. I even saved different listings pics to make sure. Sure enough, the exact same pics. Seller was using a template, I guess. Hope you followed all that.

Anyway I dropped eebay a line, asking if it was within their policy to use the same photo for different examples of the same item, each of which is SUPPOSED to be unique and therefore could not be accurately represented by what amounted to a stock photo. I even sent them auction numbers of two sales using the same pics, to back up what I said.

I never got a response. And no, the person was nowhere near a power seller, so I don't see that eebay ran interference for them on this. They just decided to ignore it, tho in my book it's fraud.

IMO, if you're cranking out a "unique, one of a kind" piece every couple months, I want a pic of the very thing I might bid on today, not a stock photo that you show of that item every time you sell one, know what I mean? That really bugs me. Apparently it does not bug eebay, tho.


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## g_xii (Mar 20, 2002)

frankenstyrene said:


> Several months back I sent an email on a seller who claimed to be selling sculpted works of art they made themselves. He/she would produce the same type of item every month or so...they're basically the same, only each one is supposed to be new and unique.
> 
> After observing this person's sales for some time I noticed that he/she was using the same - that is, IDENTICAL - pics for recurring auctions of the same type item. For example, a "uniquely sculpted and painted, one of a kind" Breyer-type horse figure would pop up from them every month or so. And in fact do often sell. But the photos were who knows how old of one that he/she'd sold who knows how long ago. The photo of the one for sale today is the same photo of every one I'd seen him list for many months...


It sounds to me like the seller is trying to skirt copyright issues -- If it's a supposed "one of a kind" hand made item, you can pretty much sell anything -- And not get busted! 

I'll bet that's what's going on. So he does not get in trouble w/ Breyer...


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## 420 Tech R/C (Sep 15, 2006)

were any of you contacted by the Steele lawfirm about the class action lawsuit being pressed against ebay and paypal????I was . From what I understood it is due to claims being lodged and paypal doing nothing about it IF the purchase wasnt from ebay.


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## Auroranut (Jan 12, 2008)

Apparently, ebay has just been crucified to the tune of (I think) $62 million by a court in Europe....

Chris.


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## g_xii (Mar 20, 2002)

Auroranut said:


> Apparently, ebay has just been crucified to the tune of (I think) $62 million by a court in Europe....
> 
> Chris.


Awwwww.... now you're gonna make me cry and feel sorry for them!:woohoo:


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## Auroranut (Jan 12, 2008)

Sorry about that.  I can see how upset you are.........

Chris.


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## TAY666 (Jan 8, 2000)

g_xii said:


> I also find that only about 2/3 of my buyers leave me feedback. Some way to force buyers to leave feedback would be nice!


I wouldn't want that.
Sure they can leave a positive, but in the process they can also ding your stars.
And with the new policy, anyone who has any one of their star ratings fall below a 4.3 will be suspended. (even though when explaining the stars to buyers they tell them that 4 is good)
So, you aren't going to want newbies, that don't know the system, to be forced to give your feedback.



> I think we're gonna see a LOT of sellers packaging things as cheaply as possible, and buyers are going to get broken and damaged items in the mail. The seller will protect him/herself by disclaiming any and all liability and responsibility in their listings! All of this is going to add a further air of distrust to an already leary buyer environment.


That won't work either.
Doesn't matter what you say in your listing, if you take paypal, then you have to accept returns. As all the buyer has to do is file an SNAD with paypal. If paypal finds in their favor, they take the money from your account once the buyer shows proof that they sent the item back. And I have even heard of cases now where paypal refunds buyers without them having to return items.
Besides, as a seller, you should be responsible for the item getting to the customer in the condition they paid for. That is the way I always opperate.


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## deadmanincfan (Mar 11, 2008)

Y'all are reminding me why I don't deal with evilbay...


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

just a few notes about some of the recent subjects on this topic:
regarding original one of a kind works of art being exempt from copyright restrictions, iirc that is no longer true. part of the increasing corporatocracy we find ourselves in.

about 5/8 of my buyers leave feedback. this may have to do with the fact that my system is set up to automatically reciprocate for any positive feedback i recieve, beyond that i am terribly behind on leaving feedback. im extremely cautions about feedback, because of some of the stunts that buyers have pulled on me long after the fact. i absolutly do not want to see mandatory feedback.

taxes: well face it, this internet thing is just too good an just too free fore the government not to keep its hands off of it, once they figure out how. as we speak they are definatly working towards collecting the sales taxes they are missing out on. if im not mistaken the latest thing along those lines as redefining all internet sales as transactions taking place in the state that the seller operates in, therefore making them subject to that states retail sales tax. this doenst quite satisfy the powers that be though, because the feds want their slice of the pie as well. 

i havent been contacted by any law firm about a class action suit, and id certainly be a prime candidate. if they had, i wouldnt participate, because id be biting the hand that feeds me. id prefer to work for change from within the system. catching more flies with honey, that sort of thing. 

right now the problem is the same sort of thing that the movie studios and casinos went through: the accountants have taken over, forgetting the concerns of the participants in favor of the short term bottom line. it will eventually come back and bite them in the hinder, and then we will see things return to sanity.


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## frankenstyrene (Oct 5, 2006)

> regarding original one of a kind works of art being exempt from copyright restrictions, iirc that is no longer true.


My initial complaint does not involve copyrights at all, so let me rephrase it this way (bear in mind the following is just an example we all could understand - not the incident I contacted eebay about):

A seller of built and painted Aurora kits - each one listed as a unique, one of a kind job - posts a photo of an earlier paintup to represent later buildups of the same kit. 

Example: he painted and sold a Godzilla 2 years ago. He's listed five more Godzillas since then. Some sell, some don't, but that's not the point. This is:

Every listing for the following five showed the pic of the first Godzilla he sold -- not a pic of each buildup bidders think they're bidding on. The one in the pic - the one they want and assume they're bidding on - is long gone, sold two years ago. 

Question: Is that a form of misrepresentation/fraud that should be stepped on by eebay? 

I lean towards "it's fraud" but am curious what you all think.


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## bert model maker (Feb 19, 2002)

I agree ! each kit has it's differences and could look very different from the picture. After all, you are bidding on the represented picture, not a copy of the picture.


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## TAY666 (Jan 8, 2000)

While it isn't morally correct to do something like that.
Ebay won't do a thing about it.
Remember, they are just a venue. They don't screen the listings, and they accept no responsibility for listing accuracy.


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## g_xii (Mar 20, 2002)

TAY666 said:


> While it isn't morally correct to do something like that.
> Ebay won't do a thing about it.
> Remember, they are just a venue. They don't screen the listings, and they accept no responsibility for listing accuracy.


I agree -- while the seller is OBVIOUSLY a scumbag, Ebay will never do anything about it.

But, God help you if you DO violate one of their silly regulations! There really is no way to get anything resolved there!

--Henry


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## sbaxter (Jan 8, 2002)

frankenstyrene said:


> A seller of built and painted Aurora kits - each one listed as a unique, one of a kind job - posts a photo of an earlier paintup to represent later buildups of the same kit.


So he's doing this without mentioning in the text of the listing that the photo is only an example, and isn't of the actual item being offered? If he did that, I would think it would be acceptable, presuming the photo shows something quite similar to what a buyer would actually get. It doesn't seem all that different to me from people using stock photos when selling DVDs and CDs. 

If not, though ...

Qapla'

SSB


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## frankenstyrene (Oct 5, 2006)

sbaxter said:


> So he's doing this without mentioning in the text of the listing that the photo is only an example, and isn't of the actual item being offered?


Right, there was no such disclaimer anywhere last time I looked (that was some time ago). But there was no change after I sent eebay links on two auctions, so I can only assume it's still the same. 

I also assume he's good enough at duplicating his own work over and over that when the winners receive the items they don't notice it isn't the one in the pics.


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## sbaxter (Jan 8, 2002)

frankenstyrene said:


> Right, there was no such disclaimer anywhere last time I looked (that was some time ago). But there was no change after I sent eebay links on two auctions, so I can only assume it's still the same.
> 
> I also assume he's good enough at duplicating his own work over and over that when the winners receive the items they don't notice it isn't the one in the pics.


I see.

I can understand the desire not to take a photo every single time, though I'd certainly add the disclaimer. My wife an I are PowerSellers (and hardly a large company -- anything but). I take all the photos for our auctions, and I swear sometimes I feel buried in pixels. We reuse our previous photos as often as we can just so I can handle the workload, but we always make it clear when that's the case -- as long as a potential buyer actually _reads_ the description in a listing, which we've found is far from a given.

Qapla'

SSB


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## g_xii (Mar 20, 2002)

sbaxter said:


> I see.
> 
> I can understand the desire not to take a photo every single time, though I'd certainly add the disclaimer. My wife an I are PowerSellers (and hardly a large company -- anything but). I take all the photos for our auctions, and I swear sometimes I feel buried in pixels. We reuse our previous photos as often as we can just so I can handle the workload, but we always make it clear when that's the case -- as long as a potential buyer actually _reads_ the description in a listing, which we've found is far from a given.


I think something like this is really borderline. If we are talking about something that sells for less than $20-30 bucks, then I don't see a real problem with him not taking a photo of each buildup he is selling. For all we know, he did them all at the same time, with exactly the same paints and painting style.

If we are talking something that goes for over a hundred bucks, though, I think the buyer should be shown an ACTUAL photograph of what he is buying -- unless he has the disclaimer mentioned above. If it's something that sells for good money, it's pure laziness (at the LEAST) on the part of the seller. I'd be leary, that's for sure!

--Henry


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

personally, on a practical level, theres no way that i could possibly photograph each and every piece. today i will be packing up 4 of one style of item and 6 of another, of the the 35 items that sold yesterday. i cant imagine taking, cropping, and uploading 35 photos a day, especially since the 4 and 6 mentioned are mass produced and nearly identical to each other. one has to serve for all.

also when it comes to value as the arbiter, what about an expensive sideshow piece? you can have them that come in at over $500 each, but as they are mass produced, all looking the same. what if the seller in question "gang painted" the models, and they do look virtually identical?

technically, ebay rules state that the seller is supposed to photograph each and every individual item, but they understand the practicalities and are flexible with it. i think this is something that has to be considered on a case by case basis.


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