# Round 2s Movie Enterprise won't be happening



## Guy Schlicter (May 3, 2004)

Hi Folks, Round 2s Movie Enterprise from the movie 2 years ago won't be happening and its official now. I am dissapointed but they will still make the enhanced reissues as well as new Star Trek kits so thats good news. Guy Schlicter.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Well, sorry for those who wanted one, but I wasn't one of those people.
Hopefully this is more time and money they can spend on the 1/350 TOS.


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## SDF-3 (Mar 15, 2010)

I didn't want one either. I'm looking forward to the Revell releases. And I hope the 1/350 TOS is more of a possibility now.


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## Guy Schlicter (May 3, 2004)

Another big question I have is what went wrong that Round 2 had to scrap the Movie Enterprise model kit. The mold must be almost done by now.


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## USS Atlantis (Feb 23, 2008)

Several possibilities exist - no idea which is which

1) They lost the license - Paraborg may have wanted something a little closer to the release of the movie - almost 2 years ago now - and R2 took too long bringing it to market
2) R2 ran into production difficulties and realized they could not overcome them and canceled the project
3) Sales of other lines hasn't generated the cash to get another new mold created after the Refit and modifications of other molds (Reliant, R-BOP) - note this also bodes ill for the 350-TOS

What the real answer is, is locked in Tom's office - maybe even Jamie doesn't know the whole truth - though it would be nice to be thrown a bone


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## Lee Staton (May 13, 2000)

The greatest likelihood is they pulled the plug just BEFORE dropping the bucks on tooling.

Lee


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## cireskul (Jul 16, 2006)

Dissapointed..............again.


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## drmcoy (Nov 18, 2004)

yeah...I am also disappointed. would have bought this one. my guess is we won't see a kit until next movie comes out, if then.


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## falcondesigns (Oct 30, 2002)

I'm really getting fed up with their re-pop dance......and now this,First it was the Akira,now this,and still ring around the TOS Enterprise.Maybe they should go under,restructure and then have people running it who actually build models and know the business.


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## RSN (Jul 29, 2008)

falcondesigns said:


> I'm really getting fed up with their re-pop dance......and now this,First it was the Akira,now this,and still ring around the TOS Enterprise.Maybe they should go under,restructure and then have people running it who actually build models and know the business.


Or just let a company, that CAN get new product to market, have the license. There are several who have NO trouble with multiple new toolings each year!


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## ShotgunLebowski (Sep 12, 2003)

falcondesigns said:


> I'm really getting fed up with their re-pop dance......and now this,First it was the Akira,now this,and still ring around the TOS Enterprise.Maybe they should go under,restructure and then have people running it who actually build models and know the business.


Totally. I just bought one each of the new re-pops and they are nice but you know AMT released below average kits in the first place. I'd rather get one or two brand new kit's each year that atleast show an attempt at accuracy and quality.


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## Jodet (May 25, 2008)

Paging Revell Germany, Paging Revell Germany....


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## falcondesigns (Oct 30, 2002)

Understand that all those re-pop tools have been paid for allready,so what they are making is profit..........so remind me again why no 1/350 TOS Enterprise?


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## modelsj (May 12, 2004)

O.K., time to focus on the Akira...


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## btbrush (Sep 20, 2010)

Most of the molds were kept in an old building and left there to rust. R2 was set up to catalog the molds and clean up and test those that were thought to be salvageable. Alot of clean-up means alot of cash. Also sci-fi molds make up less than 10% of the total. Most are cars, duh. When Racing Champions bought ERTL they didn't know model kits and didn't care. They were into diecast and distribution. In the late 90s they were down to one injection molding machine, for testing. To "repop" it costs just as much as releasing a new kit, but without having to buy the tooling (molds). So, you see, we're actually quite lucky to see what has been produced. And if they don't choose the right repops and sell a bunch of them there's no revenue for the new.


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## Hunch (Apr 6, 2003)

Well, they are repoping the TOS klingon ship (amt) and its the most accurate one they (amt) has, so thats a big plus. Cant have enough of those. Even the little PL D7 got some things wrong, but this will make up for it. Great kit.


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## Marco Scheloske (May 16, 2000)

modelsj said:


> O.K., time to focus on the Akira...


:beatdeadhorse:


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## modelsj (May 12, 2004)

Yeh.... I know.... what am I thinking.......


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## Stu Pidasso (Apr 5, 2008)

I'd hate to be the guy manning their table at Wonderfest this year...


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## moonbus01 (Jun 4, 2010)

Probably be womann-ed, 'cause you cain't punch a woman....


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## Guy Schlicter (May 3, 2004)

Hi Folks, I heard from Jamie this morning and Round 2 themselves are very dissapointed this kit was cancelled


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## ClubTepes (Jul 31, 2002)

falcondesigns said:


> I'm really getting fed up with their re-pop dance......and now this,First it was the Akira,now this,and still ring around the TOS Enterprise.Maybe they should go under,restructure and then have people running it who actually build models and know the business.


Personally, I'm glad they dropped the Akira as that was simply a bad idea.
It would have sold even less than a JJ Prise. So I deem that a good decision on their part as it likely would have sunk them before they had a chance to get going.

I realize that there are those who wanted a JJ Prise and I would have bought 1 or 2 (but just for the nacelles for bashing). However, there is likely a silver lining.

Yes, its true that its been two years since the release of the film.
However, my money is betting on the likely hood that there will be some minor tweeks made to the CG model for the sequel and that there is no logic to make a model based on the '09' film.
So I also deem canceling the current kit a good decision if that is indeed the case.
Read between the lines as Jaime makes a point of saying that no model will be made based on the '09' film.

People who say that Paramount pulled the license are likely incorrect as more likely the license simply either lapsed or they simply chose not to follow through with the kit at this time. 

By canceling the kit, obviously that money is freed up and hopefully will be diverted to a 1/350 TOS E.

And it is also possible, that the JJ Prise may resurface in the future with the release of the sequel.


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## Stu Pidasso (Apr 5, 2008)

Guy Schlicter said:


> Hi Folks, I heard from Jamie this morning and Round 2 themselves are very dissapointed this kit was cancelled


Wait a minute... Round 2 is disappointed it got cancelled? Then who makes the decisions?


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

As much as I was disappointed in the movie, I might have bought one due to the interesting variation it represents on Federation styling.

I hate it for others who really wanted one. I think it would have sold well and provided a lot of fodder for kit bashing if nothing else.

Hopefully, fans of the new old ship will get a model of it eventually.


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## Solium (Apr 24, 2005)

Stu Pidasso said:


> Wait a minute... Round 2 is disappointed it got cancelled? Then who makes the decisions?


First no explanation for not doing the kit, now their disappointed? Why don't they just say "why", instead of all these encrypted messages? Really weird.


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## mach7 (Mar 25, 2002)

They either can not respond, or don't wish to respond.

Probably paramount put the kibosh on the kit for whatever reason, but that is just conjecture. Time will tell.


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## James Tiberius (Oct 23, 2007)

Because if they told us why they would show us how inept they really are.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

You guys keep it up and we're stop this car and make you walk home!


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## James Tiberius (Oct 23, 2007)

I'd love to hear one reason why they are the messiah of modeling.

They have mad ONE new tool, one. Even ertl and amt gave us more than that. Heck, they Still are.


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## Stu Pidasso (Apr 5, 2008)

I equate R2 to that hot cheerleader in school. She'll string you along, flirting and wiggling her butt at you, and then say "Sorry, I like you just as a friend."

There was an episode of "How I Met Your Mother" recently that explained how someone can be "On the hook" without realizing it. Seems apt here.


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## Tiberious (Nov 20, 2001)

Such anger, such frustration. Guys, they're a company in business to make money and hopefully please their customers along they way. Buy their products if you like them, but otherwise it's none of our business how they run theirs.

We wanted an answer, we got one.....WHY is their business, not ours. What difference would it make when some of us will just turn around and blame them for the next disappointment all over again......let go of your anger and focus on the joy the hobby brings you.....or don't, but I for one am tired of hearing the whining.

Stu, Amen brother, that line sure got old 

Let's move on! I have a Romulan ship to build!

Tib


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## Solium (Apr 24, 2005)

Well I am enjoying their repops, was never going to get the NuPrise or Akira ,and I would have to think mighty hard about forking out over a hundred bucks for a 350 TOS Enterprise when it could have been done 10 years ago for $50 dollars. So all in all. I am very happy with what they ARE releasing.


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## Fraley1701 (Sep 3, 2003)

Stu Pidasso said:


> Wait a minute... Round 2 is disappointed it got cancelled? Then who makes the decisions?


Probably, more accurately, the "model division" at Round 2 is disappointed. Round 2 is a manufacturer of more than just models. Word has it that Tom Lowe is more interested in their slot car division as opposed to the model division. I have little doubt that Jamie and others in the model division had much to say about canceling this project.


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## Ductapeforever (Mar 6, 2008)

Just a heads up, Golf crying towels are on sale at most local Sports Authority stores at a great savings!


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## Arronax (Apr 6, 1999)

Solium said:


> First no explanation for not doing the kit, now their disappointed? Why don't they just say "why", instead of all these encrypted messages? Really weird.


Ever wanted to do something and then found out you couldn't (money, spouse, children, time, etc.). You were probably disappointed.

OK. Quick review.

Round 2 bashing. Check.:thumbsup:
Whining about how R2 doesn't listen to us. Check. :thumbsup: 
Never any new Round 2 product. Check.:thumbsup:
Where's the Akira? Check.:thumbsup:
I hate the JJprise. Check.:thumbsup:
I like the JJprise. Check.:thumbsup:
Everyone wants the 1/350 Enterprise. Check.:thumbsup:
Belief that Revell Germany will make the best Enterprise ever. Check. :thumbsup:

I think we're done here. 

These aren't the droids you're looking for. Move along.

Jim


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## irishtrek (Sep 17, 2005)

That sucks.


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## mikephys (Mar 16, 2005)

Disappointing? Yes. But, it's certainly a business decision. R2 doesn't owe anyone this model kit. We may yet see it when the economy recovers and the new movie comes along.

On the other hand, I agree with the person in an earlier thread that kit companies should announce new kits just a day or two before they hit the shelves. Their advance planning should remain confidential. 

I hope they don't string us along on the TOS 1/350 for a couple of years before dropping it. 

Beating a dead horse? Probably. Those who are tired of this discussion probably shouldn't aggrevate themselves by reading threads about it on a discussion forum.


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## RSN (Jul 29, 2008)

mikephys said:


> Disappointing? Yes. But, it's certainly a business decision. R2 doesn't owe anyone this model kit. We may yet see it when the economy recovers and the new movie comes along.
> 
> On the other hand, I agree with the person in an earlier thread that kit companies should announce new kits just a day or two before they hit the shelves. Their advance planning should remain confidential.
> 
> ...


Well I disagree. If a company announces they are going to make a product, then they DO owe their customers a kit. By the same token, if they cancel an announced product, they owe the consumer, that was ready to buy it, an explanation of why. That is called GOOD BUSINESS! I also think that continually allowing the public to believe that if they purchase re-pops of 40+ year old kits they are going to help them afford to make new, eagerly awaited kits only to have them cancelled or "delayed", is called FRAUD. Sorry, just my view of it.


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## cireskul (Jul 16, 2006)

I agree with RSN. I will get a few re-issues but I am not in any hurry, just wait a bit and get them on clearance. 

As for "new kits" I have learned my lesson. Any announcement from R2 isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on.


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## spock62 (Aug 13, 2003)

Just my 2 cents:

A company has the right to alter/delay/cancel any product they announce. But, they should also respect the fact that the reason they exist (i.e. make money) is because of their customers. Upset your customers on an almost monthly basis and watch your sales take a nose dive.

Since Round 2 formed they have announced, then delayed and finally canceled 2 Star Trek kits (Akira and JJprise). They have announced and delayed the 1/350 TOS Enterprise. Now they continue to dangle a carrot in our faces saying "wait till Wonderfest for a final (?) announcement". To this day only 3 new-mold kits have been produced (1/1000 refit, Nascar car, upcoming 1/25 '66 Batmobile), everything else is a repop.

The repops are nice, but their just 30-40 year old kits that are inaccurate and ill-fitting. Not to mention their decals tear at the slightest provocation. Don't get me wrong, I like some of the repops, nostalgia is a strong motivator, but their going to the same well one to many times. For instance, their ready to release the 18" Enterprise again, this being the 3rd time! And don't get me started on the tin box releases.

Some of you seem to think that we shouldn't be "bad-mouthing" Round 2. Well, when a company decides to interact with their customers by using their own site or a forum such as this one, they should expect both positive and negative comments regarding their products and practices. There's nothing wrong with questioning or disagreeing with what a company does, as long as your respectful about it. But, if you don't like the "tone" of the discussion, why visit this thread or others discussing Round 2?

For those of you who say we should just be happy that we get "enhanced" AMT repops, I agree...to a point. These repops are better then what AMT put out back in the day. But let me ask you this, if Round 2 had, for example, produced a new-mold Romulan BOP that was similar in size or bigger and was accurate to the studio replica, for about $10 more, would any of you been asking for the original AMT kit? I know I wouldn't have. Hopefully, Round 2 will see fit to spend more effort/money on producing new-mold Star Trek and other kits, but, based on their track record, I'll continue to be skeptical.


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## falcondesigns (Oct 30, 2002)

Well said,and for those of you that don't like the whining,go build a model.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

I think it was the 1994 DML catalog that had about a half dozen really interesting kit announcements that was very excited about. The '95 catalog didn't have them. Not having an internet to whine on, I said "Oh well," and went on with my life.

Some of those kits eventually showed up about a decade later, under the Monogram ProModeler name. Some never showed up.

Whatever.


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## actias (May 19, 2003)

I dont know why people want to defend a company that continues to burn their customers with false promises. Do they think it might give them some sort of special favor down the road. Anybody remember R2 calling us jackasses on their site for daring to question the 1/350 TOS setback that is still hanging in the breeze. Seems like all the so-called whiners have been correct in the assumptions that R2 just likes to dangle carrots in front of us to get us to buy repops of the same old kits, 5 different times with a different color package or a tin or a free communicator sticker or some other packaging campaign to make the old seem new. Poop in one hand and put R2's promises in the other and see which one fills up first.:tongue: Does'nt the adage apply - Fool me once shame on you fool me twice, three or four times, shame on me.


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## Solium (Apr 24, 2005)

I don't think R2 ever said, if you buy our repops, we will give you new kits. The same was said about Polar Lights. I understand being disappointed with cancellations, but saying they are frauding the consumer is a bit much. They have released the majority of the kits they announced anyway.


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## James Tiberius (Oct 23, 2007)

actually some of Phantom Strangers posts did make it seem that the only way we would get these new kits was if and only if we bought kits to make them money. Dangle the carrot. They were frauding the consumer. And to say they released the majority of kits is a joke, somebody already did all the work for them. All those sculptors for AMT over the years did the legwork, not R2.

And yes, us "Whiners" have been right about everything so far. 

Also, found a Klingon BOP for $15 sealed, sure it didn't have 20 dollar landing gear but its the same model.


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## liskorea317 (Mar 27, 2009)

Ductapeforever said:


> Just a heads up, Golf crying towels are on sale at most local Sports Authority stores at a great savings!


Since I don't see that many posts from you lately, I just wanted to ask how you are doing? How is your health? Are you feeling OK?
Mike


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## Fraley1701 (Sep 3, 2003)

Arronax said:


> I think we're done here.
> 
> These aren't the droids you're looking for. Move along.
> 
> Jim


Definitely done here! :thumbsup:


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

falcondesigns said:


> Well said,and for those of you that don't like the whining, go build a model.


Yeah, I realize the intentional irony of the post and appreciate the humor, but you're right:

We will whine. 

We will applaud. 

We will cry. 

We will . . . whatever else one can do via writing and imagery possible that is not outside the rules here on this particular BBS.

I tend to agree that there's no use getting upset or bashing or excessively complaining but I'd rather see people ventilate some (psychologically helpful if not carried to extremes) and I enjoy some of their comments nonetheless. 

Most are not going overboard and are keeping it family friendly at least. Unless and until the moderator says otherwise (which may be right after this post for all I know) why not let them get it off their chests? If nothing else, it's feedback.


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## Arronax (Apr 6, 1999)

Think R2 is defrauding it's customer by cancelling announced projects? 

http://www.auroraplasticscorp.com/


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## James Tiberius (Oct 23, 2007)

Well for a company that wants to continue doing business it wasn't a great decision. Think of it this way. You want new modelers right? Well theres a new star trek. I'm not asking if the "old guys" like it or not. From a business standpoint younger kids are seeing the new movie and not the old show. My 5 year old son "likes" the old one but thinks the newer one is cooler looking, guess what, he now helps me build star trek models, but he wanted a new enterprise kit just like I did.

Younger people are more interested in the new stuff, not old stale done before star trek in different scales. I'm 27 and I love the old gray ship, but sometimes change is good, and some of the people posting about how "ugly" it is or just hating the movie are stale and stagnant. Star Trek was DEAD before JJ Abrams, now everybody's are anticipating the next one, not just guys who watched it on tv back in '67.

So for the good of the future of modeling, its time to let go a little and see some of the newer stuff.


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## irishtrek (Sep 17, 2005)

If all you whiners are unable to have an open mimd then go file a complaint with the better buisness bureau.


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## RSN (Jul 29, 2008)

irishtrek said:


> If all you whiners are unable to have an open mimd then go file a complaint with the better buisness bureau.


The only actual "whining" going on, is from people who don't like to hear a different, and apparently true, point of view! Otherwise I am just reading people posting their feelings, pro and con, about a company that chooses to operate by communicating with it's customers on this and other public forums!


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## Lee Staton (May 13, 2000)

I guess I don't mind the whining about a project we want not happening UNLESS it comes from an entitlement perspective. Our society is sick with people thinking they are owed something. Companies announce products and then change their plans based on market factors all the time. Accusing R2 of fraud and sinister motives is silly. They are probably just like you and me: Trying to do the best with what they have. The economy has not turned around, and they are making choices.

Sometimes model company choices happen because they've announced and shown a product at hobby trade shows but the DISTRIBUTORS don't show enough interest. If distributors don't buy 'em, my understanding from the past was that basically sinks the kit.

I, for one, choose to see their announcement in a positive light. The Abrams E is not as popular as the old E, and they well might be changing it for the next movie--who knows? I'm hopeful that the announcement R2 plans to make at WonderFest will be for the ultimate classic E that Gary Kerr put so much TLC into researching. I'd rather have that one!

Guess we'll find out in May.

Lee


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## Guy Schlicter (May 3, 2004)

Do you think another model company will get the license to do the Abrams Enterprise. Or is it a dead subject as far as becoming a model kit. It may not be the best looking version of a Starship but I was kinda looking forward to building a model of it from Round 2.


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## Ductapeforever (Mar 6, 2008)

Whoever has the current Star Trek license is the only company in this hemisphere who has the rights to do it. At this point, that appears to be Round 2. "I'm Sorry, he's dead Jim." as McCoy would say, seems to be the final nail in the coffin.


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## Lee Staton (May 13, 2000)

If it's a two-year license, it might go back on the block, though. It's been 2 years since the movie, and it seemed Round 2 announced their kit right away.

I seriously doubt anyone else will bite on a 1/350 size. But hey, I'm wrong all the time! 

Lee


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

PerfesserCoffee said:


> Most are not going overboard and are keeping it family friendly at least. Unless and until the moderator says otherwise (which may be right after this post for all I know) why not let them get it off their chests? If nothing else, it's feedback.


For the record, as a general rule of thumb, I try not to censor member comments on this forum. Obviously there are exceptions, e.g. one member attacking or deriding another member personally.

With regard to what some refer to as "Round 2 bashing" I find it personally tedious and unproductive. Nevertheless, as long as the members of this forum treat each other with a modicum of mutual respect I'll allow a significant degree of latitude as far as individual opinions and criticisms are concerned.

After all guys, we're just talking about a bunch of spaceship models here. Nothing to go to war over. My impression is that the Round 2 conversation is basically one vast stable of dead horses, but as long as the remarks remain civil I see little or no harm in letting it continue. 

To those members who find themselves unduly offended (or just plain bored) by Round 2-related criticism, I respectfully suggest you consider avoiding this thread. I can't really censor members for voicing a negative comment re: a given model kit or manufacturer, but neither do I have to submit myself to those comments if I choose not to.


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## derric1968 (Jun 13, 2003)

Ductapeforever said:


> Whoever has the current Star Trek license is the only company in this hemisphere who has the rights to do it. At this point, that appears to be Round 2.


That's not an entirely accurate statement. Round 2's original Trek license only included everything that had been done up to the point they purchased it (from TOS to Enterprise). The rights to do model kits from the new movie had to be negotiated separately and resulted in a second, more specific license.

Anything new that is created will not be covered by a blanket license. So, if CBS decided to do a new Trek TV show, for example, that new show would not be automatically covered by Round 2's license. It would also need to be negotiated separately. That's how Monogram was able to get the Voyager license in the '90s.

So, Round 2 holds (or held) 2 Trek licenses - one for everything that came before the new movie and a separate one for the new movie. The question at hand is does Round 2 still hold the new movie license or not? If they do, then no one else can touch it. However, if Round 2 no longer holds the new movie license, there is absolutely nothing to prevent someone else from picking it up. But if I were a betting man, I'd say that it's not likely to happen, so don't start chanting "Moebius, Moebius, Moebius" just yet.


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## kdaracal (Jan 24, 2009)

I'm hanging in their corner, if for no other reason than they managed to resurrect themselves from the dead. They make good quality re-pops and new material, as well.

Looking forward to the new Batmobile (new tooling). I'll get the glue version for me, the snap for my son.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

I'll just sit back and watch for now.


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## deadmanincfan (Mar 11, 2008)

Arronax said:


> Think R2 is defrauding it's customer by cancelling announced projects?
> 
> http://www.auroraplasticscorp.com/


:lol::lol::lol: Good one, Jim!


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## PixelMagic (Aug 25, 2004)

I saw a comment on Starship modeler that hinted Revell Germany may have also picked up the JJ universe license as well as TOS. This is NOT confirmed in any way, just a RUMOR, but from a reputable source nonetheless.


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## Marco Scheloske (May 16, 2000)

PixelMagic said:


> I saw a comment on Starship modeler that hinted Revell Germany may have also picked up the JJ universe license as well as TOS. This is NOT confirmed in any way, just a RUMOR, but from a reputable source nonetheless.


Let it say me this way: The license Revell Germany got is NOT only for TOS...


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

do any of those accusing R2 of bad business practices realize how much it costs a company just to announce it, at least in the manner that R2 has done with the JJprise? 
securing the rights to a project, making up proposed packaging and advertising, etc., costs many thousands of dollars. do you think they just spent that with no intention of actually seeing through to production? 
also it is not unheard of for a movie studio to change the rules in the middle of the game. i know of a situation from a few years ago whee a company had renegotiated for a license renewal. everything was agreed to, all hunky dory, and they (the manufacturer) were just waiting for the paperwork to be processed, when the whole studio merchandising department had a complete change of personnel. suddenly, despite the agreement and understanding they studio and the manufacturer had, and despite the fact that they had been successful with the agreement and products in prior years, the studio told them that the cost of the license would increase TEN FOLD! so the manufacturer dropped the license even though they had already announced that they would be continuing to produce those products. 
as to "owing" us any explanations, we have no right to know the inner workings of their company, including their sales figures, profit and loss statements, and many other facts that factored into their decision. 
R2 has been incredibly communicative and open with us, their die hard customers, already, more than any other company i can think of. as far as i can tell, the only thing they have gotten for their troubles is a bunch of grousing and accusations. i think the only thing that complaining that we arent getting enough information about things we have no right to know is going to get us is even less information about the things we would like to know in the future.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

I'm 100% convinced that R2 is responsible for Sarah Palin!


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## mach7 (Mar 25, 2002)

John P said:


> I'm 100% convinced that R2 is responsible for Sarah Palin!


Cool, when is the kit coming out!


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## SteveR (Aug 7, 2005)

Maybe the Black Widow could be modified ...?


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## cireskul (Jul 16, 2006)

No...... Sarah Palin is.......Bushes fault.


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## JeffG (May 10, 2004)

Needlessly provocative comment removed...though it was somewhat humorous!


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## RSN (Jul 29, 2008)

Cut the political crap, unless you want the other side to be heard, but on here that side seems not to be tolerated!


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## Captain_April (Oct 20, 2002)

deadmanincfan said:


> Not a fair comparison, R2 is a real company.


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## James Tiberius (Oct 23, 2007)

I agree with RSN, I don't mind otehr people standing up for R2, which I may disagree with, but I dont' want to hear any political trolling. That would cause real arguments.


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## cireskul (Jul 16, 2006)

I have purchased all the re-issues, I support the effort. I would like to see new kits. Time will tell.


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## JeffG (May 10, 2004)

James Tiberius said:


> I agree with RSN, I don't mind otehr people standing up for R2, which I may disagree with, but I dont' want to hear any political trolling. That would cause real arguments.


Very true. That's one of the best ways to get folks all torqued up.


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## Ductapeforever (Mar 6, 2008)

RSN said:


> Cut the political crap, unless you want the other side to be heard, but on here that side seems not to be tolerated!


Amen, I know, I got in trouble for it. You'd have thought I was drowning Kittens.


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

RSN said:


> Cut the political crap, unless you want the other side to be heard, but on here that side seems not to be tolerated!


I do my best to be fair and even-handed but, you know, nobody's perfect.

To restate what most of you should already know, political sniping -- from either side -- will not be tolerated on this forum. If you want to trade political barbs there are plenty of spots online where that sort of thing is appropriate. Suffice to say, the Hobbytalk sci-fi forum is not one of those places.

Let's try and focus on the stuff we have in common; that is, our love for building sci-fi-related model kits. You know, the_ important _stuff.


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## Ductapeforever (Mar 6, 2008)

Thank you Rob, finally a voice of reason!


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## Ductapeforever (Mar 6, 2008)

Does anyone hear crickets.........?


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## RSN (Jul 29, 2008)

Carson Dyle said:


> I do my best to be fair and even-handed but, you know, nobody's perfect.
> 
> To restate what most of you should already know, political sniping -- from either side -- will not be tolerated on this forum. If you want to trade political barbs there are plenty of spots online where that sort of thing is appropriate. Suffice to say, the Hobbytalk sci-fi forum is not one of those places.
> 
> Let's try and focus on the stuff we have in common; that is, our love for building sci-fi-related model kits. You know, the_ important _stuff.


Rob, I was not referring to your moderating, just an observation in general. Thanks! : )


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## DL Matthys (May 8, 2004)

cireskul said:


> I have purchased all the re-issues, I support the effort. I would like to see new kits. Time will tell.


Me too...All now is back to _status quo_ the universe now back in balance.
Case closed... I return to the work bench.


DL Matthys
www.dlmparts.com
[email protected]
Make it Glow!


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

RSN said:


> Cut the political crap, unless you want the other side to be heard, but on here that side seems not to be tolerated!


What political crap? I was making a joke about a celebrity.


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## Ductapeforever (Mar 6, 2008)

Re-directs attention to Ultimate PL Spindrift thread....

We now return to our regular programing already in progress.


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## mach7 (Mar 25, 2002)

John P said:


> What political crap? I was making a joke about a celebrity.


I got it. :thumbsup:


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## fortress (Apr 1, 2006)

Well the whole thing is no real surprise, hey let's face facts they more than likely bit off more than they could chew and now they are basically telling the modeling community after 2 years "sorry my bad", Many folks see that as a betrayal of buisness ethics others who really did not like the JJprise in the first place are more interested in a 1/350 scale 1701 which may or may not happen at this point. The alternative market over the past few years has been the one's for the most part that have been really breaking ground with Trek subjects and I feel that's the way it will be for some time unless the economy get's better. So No real surprises as far as Round 2 goes.

fortress


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## ClubTepes (Jul 31, 2002)

mach7 said:


> Cool, when is the kit coming out!


I saw the video................at least it kinda looked like her.


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## irishtrek (Sep 17, 2005)

RSN said:


> The only actual "whining" going on, is from people who don't like to hear a different, and apparently true, point of view!


That's only because those people are narrow/closed minded.


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## James Tiberius (Oct 23, 2007)

Well I think this will get angst out of everyone's system for another month until R2 makes another announcement in a month or 2. Then we'll all either praise or crucify them once again.

This has all happend before and will happen again.


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## BrianM (Dec 3, 1998)

...simply a business decision. The Trek section at TRU is marked down on clearance. The TOS 1701 kits were $7.48!


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## fernieo (Mar 22, 2000)

BrianM said:


> ...simply a business decision. The Trek section at TRU is marked down on clearance. The TOS 1701 kits were $7.48!


Movie Junk is Still clogging the shelves at TRU, even TOS stuff is not really moving.
Last October Got 2 Playmates Enterprises at Target for $7.00ea. and a Phaser and Tricorder for $2.98 each!


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## Ductapeforever (Mar 6, 2008)

Star Trek is dying a slow, painful death. Americans have a short memory. Unless it is running in reruns daily on mutiple cable channels it tends to be quickly forgot. Out of sight out of mind as they say. It's sad really.
The end of an era. In my opinion, no matter what the studios do, I feel that the magic that we once knew
is forever lost to the ravages of time.


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

I think that may be true of the original show, since it was embraced primarily by the WWII, Silent, and Baby Boom generations who were there to watch it first-hand, as well as those who actually worked on it's production. We are all getting way up there in age, and slowly dying off.

I still think that the original show is the best of the bunch. Even though all sales are down at the retail level, the original series products still seem to sell the best overall. Anyway, that's this old man's opinion. Probably getting senile...


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## RSN (Jul 29, 2008)

Ductapeforever said:


> Star Trek is dying a slow, painful death. Americans have a short memory. Unless it is running in reruns daily on mutiple cable channels it tends to be quickly forgot. Out of sight out of mind as they say. It's sad really.
> The end of an era. In my opinion, no matter what the studios do, I feel that the magic that we once knew
> is forever lost to the ravages of time.


When you stop putting out a quality product, just to put out a product, that is what you get. I am content to watch the original series on Blu-Ray, with no desire to re-watch any of the follow-up shows. Star Wars will suffer the same fate as people reflect back on the prequels, after the "thrill" of new Star Wars has worn off! As much as hardcore fans want to see Trek as something more than it really was, history will show that is was a TV show with a large group of dedicated followers. It will not be redone centuries from now as Shakespeare has been!


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## Ductapeforever (Mar 6, 2008)

As I rapidly approach the offramp to Gezzerville, I will fondly hold dear the memories of Kirk and crew. While TNG, Voyager, DS9,and Enterprise were interesting and entertaining, to me they were NOT Star Trek. There will always be only one true Enterprise, the one and only original...no bloody 'A' , 'B', 'C' or 'D' ! They, like I, am ever so quickly coming to my just reward. Star Trek seems to be doing it with more grace than I.


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## James Tiberius (Oct 23, 2007)

It must be a generational thing. I was born well after TOS was on air and have grown up with TNG and the following shows. To me all of them are Trek. I think that is why there is such a huge disagreement between older and younger gens on the subject of the NuPrise. 

I see every ship as having their own soul. Sure the Galaxy Class ship is named enterprise just like the Connie, but two very different ladies. I feel the same about the XI version. She's different, but she bears the name Enterprise and she should recieve just as much love as her sisters.

I also think its useless for people to endlessly bash a ship just because it looks "different". Wasn't the overall point of trek supposed to be the belief that diversity is a Good thing? The point of Star Trek is to embrace the change and not get caught up on dogmatic belief. And if you do honestly dislike another person's desing choice, you should at least respect their choice even if it is not your own.

Enterprise is the perfect example, it doesn't have the secondary hull, but it fit the idea of the series, it was a brand new ship, they didn't know they would need a larger ship with a secondary hull and larger warp systems, etc. We probably would have gotten there if the show continued much like the Starcrafts resin kit that is based of of the actual designs. It was an evolution of a ship to see what direction it would go in. To see the same ship all the time for 46 years does get old. Heck I would like to see the Enterprise B get more love, but since she killed Kirk it won't happen.


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## RSN (Jul 29, 2008)

Well, I for one grew up during the original series and I liked the new movie, and the Enterprise, more than any other version Trek since the original. (I include the real films of 1-6 in my "like" category as well!) I also don't buy the "Star Trek stands for diversity is a good thing" bunk. Through every incarnation, human characters are always trying to get Vulcans to be more emotional, and mocking them when they embrace their cultures control of emotion. That, to me, is racism and Trek is full of it! I truly hope the new Star Trek gets some traction, I enjoy the fact that they are not bogged down with 45 years of “geek lore” and can recreate their own universe!


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## Cajjunwolfman (Nov 15, 2004)

Heart rendering, heartbreaking news! However completely what I expected. 

I put forth the thesis that nothing requiring substantial financial investment will be done by R2 in the foreseeable future. Only products or retools (which I hear the Klingon BOP is really well done) or other items which can be done with a minimal investment which contain a high probability of Return on Investment (ROI). As further proof I would point to potentially disappointing sales of the 1/350 Retrofit, C-57D (even though these utilized existing tools they would require substantive financing due to size of the kit). I see these two items gathering dust at every location, frequently on deep discount sales, seems like they can not give them away. 

Strictly speculatively speaking, as in hypothetically, as in only table conversation, as in I accept no liability for putting forth this speculative fiction of an idea (I don’t have any insider information nor do I want any). I wouldn’t be surprised about anything about this.


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

^^^ So what are you trying to say???:tongue::devil:
-Jim


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Heart _rending_. Unless your drawing a picture of a heart, in which case it's rendering.


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## James Tiberius (Oct 23, 2007)

Well, I gave my explination, but cajunwolfman's made no sense


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## Cajjunwolfman (Nov 15, 2004)

John P, rending is correct. Guess that's what I get for allowing myself to be dumbed down by a spellchecker!


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## JeffG (May 10, 2004)

I'll be 50 in may. Grew up loving (and still do) TOS. Spent much time drawing the 'E' in school making sure to get all the proportions as correct as possible. I also found something to like in just about all of the variations of Trek-although the technobabble of some of the recent shows and button pushing that passed for action sometimes got old. Maybe that's why I was so pleased with JJ's movie. At least it got back to the excitement and life that was in TOS. As for the design of the new ship, no...it doesn't look like TOS Constitution, but ANYBODY can recognize it as AN Enterprise. And that's good enough for me.


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## ShotgunLebowski (Sep 12, 2003)

If Star Trek were dieing the movie would have bombed. It didn't, but the last TNG Movie did. What is dying is the over techno babled and predictable Berman and Braga trek. JJ Made a great movie, yeah there are a couple things there that are questionable mainly the engine room. People will always show up for a good story and soem action. 

I'm dissapointed that the kit was canceled. I've got all of the 1/1000 kit's in my office at work and I wanted this one there too. 

John


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## woof359 (Apr 27, 2003)

i bet they might rethink a new Enterprise kit is the second movie does well. the ship grew on me but I would have maybe used the TOS saucer section, ask 10 people and youll get 10 diff ideas tho (-:

bring on the 1/350 TOS ship !


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## deadmanincfan (Mar 11, 2008)

Captain_April said:


> deadmanincfan said:
> 
> 
> > Not a fair comparison, R2 is a real company.
> ...


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Cajjunwolfman said:


> John P, rending is correct. Guess that's what I get for allowing myself to be dumbed down by a spellchecker!


Well, you spelled _rendering _correctly!


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## robtrek (Sep 26, 2007)

Cajjunwolfman said:


> Heart rendering, heartbreaking news! However completely what I expected.
> 
> I put forth the thesis that nothing requiring substantial financial investment will be done by R2 in the foreseeable future. Only products or retools (which I hear the Klingon BOP is really well done) or other items which can be done with a minimal investment which contain a high probability of Return on Investment (ROI). As further proof I would point to potentially disappointing sales of the 1/350 Retrofit, C-57D (even though these utilized existing tools they would require substantive financing due to size of the kit). I see these two items gathering dust at every location, frequently on deep discount sales, seems like they can not give them away.
> 
> Strictly speculatively speaking, as in hypothetically, as in only table conversation, as in I accept no liability for putting forth this speculative fiction of an idea (I don’t have any insider information nor do I want any). I wouldn’t be surprised about anything about this.


I feel one of the reasons the 1/350 refit is gathering dust is the fact that the size is rather..well(sacrilege!)..... way too big. Where exactly do you put that thing. I have never had the room for a kit that big, let alone a series of them. Personally, i always felt AMT had the right size in '79. I would have prefered that Polar at the time had done a new kit in that approximate scale and run the series accordingly. Small enough to display, but big enough for nice detail and lighting. Instead, Polar made kits ridiculously big or Japnese style too small. What a shame. I look forward to the Revell kit. If it is just a tad better than the original 18", I will be thrilled and I would never buy the 1/350th OS Ent. No matter what. (I expect to catch hell for that!)


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

robtrek said:


> I look forward to the Revell kit. If it is just a tad better than the original 18", I will be thrilled and I would never buy the 1/350th OS Ent. No matter what. (I expect to catch hell for that!)


I'm just fine with that. It just means that there will be more for the rest of us.


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## RSN (Jul 29, 2008)

robtrek said:


> I feel one of the reasons the 1/350 refit is gathering dust is the fact that the size is rather..well(sacrilege!)..... way too big. Where exactly do you put that thing. I have never had the room for a kit that big, let alone a series of them. Personally, i always felt AMT had the right size in '79. I would have prefered that Polar at the time had done a new kit in that approximate scale and run the series accordingly. Small enough to display, but big enough for nice detail and lighting. Instead, Polar made kits ridiculously big or Japnese style too small. What a shame. I look forward to the Revell kit. If it is just a tad better than the original 18", I will be thrilled and I would never buy the 1/350th OS Ent. No matter what. (I expect to catch hell for that!)


I agree. A prototype is out, it looks like the Revel Germany kit will happen. I rescind my statement from a few months ago when I said I would buy 2 1/350 Enterprise kits. For the money I would spend on 2 "phantom" kits, I can purchase at least 2 or 3 of the actual kit produced by Revel. Sorry R2, nothing personal. I dare say that at Wonderfest 2013, when they make another announcement that the 1/350 Enterprise is still being debated by the "bean counters", I will have a production Enterprise and a 1st pilot Enterprise up on my shelf. Keep the faith boys, good times ahead!!


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## irishtrek (Sep 17, 2005)

woof359 said:


> i bet they might rethink a new Enterprise kit is the second movie does well. the ship grew on me but I would have maybe used the TOS saucer section, ask 10 people and youll get 10 diff ideas tho (-:
> 
> bring on the 1/350 TOS ship !


That should be 'IF the second movie does well':wave:


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## James Tiberius (Oct 23, 2007)

so, let me get this straight: You Don't think the movie did well?

It was the best recieved Star trek movie ever, by Everyone not just hard core trekkers. It'll do just fine despite what you think.

Some company will make it eventually, my bet is Revell for the sequel. R2 will only have the OS agreement and still won't make a 1/350 despite the wants.


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## USS Atlantis (Feb 23, 2008)

James Tiberius said:


> so, let me get this straight: You Don't think the movie did well?
> 
> It was the best recieved Star trek movie ever, by Everyone not just hard core trekkers. It'll do just fine despite what you think.
> 
> Some company will make it eventually, my bet is Revell for the sequel. R2 will only have the OS agreement and still won't make a 1/350 despite the wants.


I agree that JJ-Trek did well - much as I hate to admit it

Revell-USA would be my last pick to do a model - maybe Fine Molds or Moebius could pick up the Nu-Trek license

And I think, eventually, R2 will get the 350-TOS out - before or after more 1000-scale kits is the question (K'Tinga, Reliant, Rom-BOP still need entries in the styrene 1000-scale group)

And I'm sure the Act-Adv crowd will love what JJ does for the sequel - but if it IS like the first one, I won't be the only one NOT buying a ticket


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

If I were to place a bet, I would bet that the 1/350 scale original WILL be released by Round 2 this year. I think that they have dropped enough hints without an "official" announcement that it is coming. 

2011 is, after all, the 45th anniversary of the show's network premiere, Revell Germany is coming out with their two original series kits, R2 has dropped or postponed production of other new kits, and there certainly has been a very vocal desire expressed by the ST modeling community for support of the large kit, with probably a large amount of preorders out there (myself included).

I certainly have no animosity toward the latest film. I thought it was a lot of fun, and enjoyed it immensely, despite my dislike for some of the set design and the Enterprise. I imagine the next film will do quite well at the box office, and that the modelers who really want the kit of the JJ-Prise will get their wish at that time.


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## SUNGOD (Jan 20, 2006)

Unless something changes and we get some really neat looking ships in any future sequels I'm not bothered about them. 

There's so many other sci fi subjects model companies could do other than Trek. We're hopefully getting a nice OS Enterprise and Klingon ship from Revell and the only other ones I'll really want after those is a retooled K'Tinga (with a new front command section) from R2 and I'll possibly buy a 1/350 OS Enterprise or K'Tinga if they're ever made.


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## woof359 (Apr 27, 2003)

finding a place for my 1/350 refit did take some doing, I had to made a special self type thing for it and it did end up down stairs in what Michelle call's my man cave, I thought it was the family room ??? I just like the WOW factor of a big kit.


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## mach7 (Mar 25, 2002)

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if Polar Lights does produce a 1/350th scale Enterprise it might NOT be a good thing. With the Revell AG kits coming out the market should be diluted a bit. I also think that the costs are going up fast. The $$'s devaluation, cost of oil, rising labor costs in China all raise the costs. Every month the costs get higher and soon the market for this kit will start shrinking, as health issues start to limit us old geezers.

The as yet to be green lighted kit has a retail price of $149, that was from the non-memo sent out last fall. IF they announce it this May do you think it will still be $149?

I have heard rumors that the Moebius J2 was not the financial success that they hoped. 

Given all of the factors, I think Polar Lights is damed if they do, damed if they don't with this kit. If they produce it they run the risk of never making money. If they don't, they run the risk of alienating the prime market base.

It could be R2's Kobayashi Maru.


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## Fozzie (May 25, 2009)

I have had similar thoughts on the subject, Mach7. I'm afraid the risk of producing that kit is going up with every day that passes.


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## Ductapeforever (Mar 6, 2008)

True with any future kits from now on, the unrest in the Middle East will effect prices for a long time to come.


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## James Tiberius (Oct 23, 2007)

I think the bigger problem is that I can get almost all the kits they are "bringing back for us" can still be found on shelves. Went to a shop the other day and it had 90s issues of TOS Enterprise, Bridge Set, Klingon Battlecruiser, Defiant, KBOP. And they're still cheaper than the re-pops.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

But the repops all have improvements. 
They fixed the Reliant's saucer thickness, B/C deck shape and ridged sides.
They added landing gear to the K BoP.
They fixed the saucer bottom/neck attachment of the 1701-B.
And all have new decals.


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## spock62 (Aug 13, 2003)

While it's true that the repops have one or more improvements, their still 30-40 year old kits that are showing their age. Most are inaccurate, even with improvements (plus, IMHO, their decals are hard to apply, breaking apart too easily). And most can still be had on ebay and elsewhere, sometimes far cheaper. Plus there have been both resin and decal updates available from the aftermarket for years, if you want it.

Meanwhile R2 has, from the start, promised it's customers new-mold Star Trek kits, yet, after about 3 years, has only produced one (1/1000 Refit). They've talked about the Big E since '09. And while many would like to see it, the cost and size do put some of us off. 

Back when Polar Lights was started, they set out to produce new-mold Star Trek kits, they had no other option since they didn't have access to the original AMT molds. Now, they own/lease these (AMT) molds and seem to be content with repops, since (my guess) these are cheaper to produce then new-mold kits.

Repops are nice, I like nostalgia just as much as the next guy, but I'd much rather see new-mold kits. Hopefully, Revell of Germany will not only do a good job on their Star Trek kits, but will also do others. Based on the quality of their latest aircraft kits, I'm cautiously optimistic.


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## Ductapeforever (Mar 6, 2008)

Those of you with crystal balls must be seeing unannounced only dreamed of new lines of Star Trek models from the JJ Verse,and classic Trek plus starships never seen on screen magicaly coming from Revell of Germany. Stop drinking the bong water, they have only announced TWO kits with no indication yet of anything further. I like to listen to the Beatles 'Lucy in the sky with diamonds' backwards too !


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## Marco Scheloske (May 16, 2000)

John P said:


> But the repops all have improvements.
> They fixed the Reliant's saucer thickness, B/C deck shape and ridged sides.


...and they killed the windows...


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## Marco Scheloske (May 16, 2000)

RSN said:


> I agree. A prototype is out, it looks like the Revel Germany kit will happen.


The producition of the molds started last week.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Marco Scheloske said:


> ...and they killed the windows...


Ja, that's a drawback. You'll have to get either their decal set or JTGraphics' to get windows. But, IMHO, the windowless smooth sides are better than the staircase-sides with half-window shapes. And you had to kill the windows to smooth out the sides anyway.


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## RSN (Jul 29, 2008)

Marco Scheloske said:


> The producition of the molds started last week.


Very cool! Now that is the way to announce a new kit.......and actually follow-up the announcement with a model!!


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## RSN (Jul 29, 2008)

John P said:


> Ja, that's a drawback. You'll have to get either their decal set or JTGraphics' to get windows. But, IMHO, the windowless smooth sides are better than the staircase-sides with half-window shapes. And you had to kill the windows to smooth out the sides anyway.


So I pop $35.00 for a twenty year old kit that is "more accurate", yet to make it look like it should, I have plunk down another $10 dollars for windows?!!! Hmmmmmm.......


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## spock62 (Aug 13, 2003)

RSN said:


> So I pop $35.00 for a twenty year old kit that is "more accurate", yet to make it look like it should, I have plunk down another $10 dollars for windows?!!! Hmmmmmm.......


Actually, Round 2 would prefer you plunk down $30 for THEIR decal set which includes the windows plus aztec!


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## RSN (Jul 29, 2008)

spock62 said:


> Actually, Round 2 would prefer you plunk down $30 for THEIR decal set which includes the windows plus aztec!


Ohhhhhhh, it just gets better! $30.00 for decals!!! How much does it cost to have those made in China?!!


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## WarpCore Breach (Apr 27, 2005)

You know, my extremely sore neck isn't helping my response here... You don't like Round 2; we get it. Being sarcastic and making trolling comments isn't going to help. Unless you're a business/marketing genius, you don't know the how and why R2 is doing what they are. I sure as heck don't.

Suggestion: Don't buy the _Reliant_ repop. Or any R2 repop. You aren't offering anything constructive.


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## RSN (Jul 29, 2008)

WarpCore Breach said:


> You know, my extremely sore neck isn't helping my response here... You don't like Round 2; we get it. Being sarcastic and making trolling comments isn't going to help. Unless you're a business/marketing genius, you don't know the how and why R2 is doing what they are. I sure as heck don't.
> 
> Suggestion: Don't buy the _Reliant_ repop. Or any R2 repop. You aren't offering anything constructive.


Just trying to get a feel for what is out there so I can decide if I WANT to get a re-pop of a ship I really like. At $65.00 to get an accurate looking ship that I built 20 years ago, I think I will pass. Lighten up and stop trying to read into posts what isn't there. I thought we come here for info? Well I got what I needed, if you knew me, you would know I don't take life too seriously, it is just plastic. Oh, and I have run my own business, so I kinda know how it works, marketing, customer surveys, giving people what they want from a brand name, and so on! Peace and happy building!


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## James Tiberius (Oct 23, 2007)

RSN, it isn't that they can't lighten up, they just can't be wrong about a poorly run company and are just blind to it. Until R2 really fraks up that is and decides to release a glow bridge without any more new kits to be made, then they might get squirmish.

They're an older generation happy with simple and poorly made tools. Thats fine for them to be stagnant modelers who accept medocrity from a company who makes money off of them. Most of all, a change of subject from a ship that has been made in almost every scale. 

Ductapeforever, i have my crystal balls right here, and they're telling me that R2 is a joke of a company and that most star trek modelers would like to see ANYTHING new come out of them.


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## RSN (Jul 29, 2008)

James Tiberius said:


> RSN, it isn't that they can't lighten up, they just can't be wrong about a poorly run company and are just blind to it. Until R2 really fraks up that is and decides to release a glow bridge without any more new kits to be made, then they might get squirmish.
> 
> They're an older generation happy with simple and poorly made tools. Thats fine for them to be stagnant modelers who accept medocrity from a company who makes money off of them. Most of all, a change of subject from a ship that has been made in almost every scale.
> 
> Ductapeforever, i have my crystal balls right here, and they're telling me that R2 is a joke of a company and that most star trek modelers would like to see ANYTHING new come out of them.


Well, I am not going to attribute motives to someone when I don't know them. What I do know is, any quips I have made are due to the fact that I find R2 business practices to be rather peculiar. If someone else sees it different, that is fine, say it, this is an open forum. But don't tell anyone else that they have no right to make an observation. 

I just can't wait for it to get warmer out so I can prime my Seaview interior and continue my build!! Glue on my friends!!


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

Okay guys, I can see where this is going, and it ain't pretty.

Seems to me both sides have had ample opportunity to voice an opinion on the matter of Round 2's motives and business practices, and since I don't care to spend the rest of my week policing this particular thread for personal sniping I hereby pronounce this badly flogged horse DOA.


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