# Dave Metzner on why kits are expensive and imperfect:



## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

http://www.cybermodeler.com/special/kit_flaws.shtml

Mainly aimed at car modelers, but it applies to us all.



> I read some of the threads online - not all - and not completely, because my time for such activities is limited, so I don't see every comment on every new kit. There seems to me to be a feeling among some members here, that we are somewhat careless and sloppy in the way we go about researching and developing kits. I guess that you could say I have an interest in making an effort to provide some explanation of how / why some new kits have flaws.
> 
> I think that I can speak for all of us who try to put nice new kits on store shelves when I say that flaws in kits occur for many reasons none of which include intentionally sloppy research or a lack of caring about the quality of kits we work to produce.
> 
> ...


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## SteveR (Aug 7, 2005)

> Dave: "I'm sure I won't have changed any minds with my attempted explanation here."


Well, you haven't changed my mind, Dave: it ain't the sixties, and I've always thought that we were lucky to have these bloody things made at all. Thanks for the explanation, and thanks to you and your colleagues for your hard work. :thumbsup:

(Thanks for the quote, John.)


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## edge10 (Oct 19, 2013)

Even with it's imperfections, I want to thank Moebius for the classic Battlestar kit. It is well engineered and the detail is very nice.

Merry Christmas to all.


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## Dracula (Jun 5, 2005)

Dave hit the nail on the head. I for one appropriate all the hard work he puts into the kits that Moebius models. The Barman kit is fantastic. :thumbsup:


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## wjplenge (Apr 14, 2011)

No complaints here, yeah I wouldn't mind it if the new kits were cheaper but they're certainly more reasonable than trying to find and purchase the original kit I bought as a kid for 99 cents. Last time I did that was over 20 years ago for a kit I "just had to build again" I spent $125 for the kit. After all the story was the original molds got destroyed and it would never be reissued. Of course 2 years later the kit gets reissued for about $20. I'm happy paying the prices your kits go for not only are they a bargain over the collector market but you produce quality kits, maybe not perfect but if I wanted perfect I'd buy collector statues not model kits. However the best reason I see for supporting you company is <drum roll> You produce these quality kits of subjects we always wanted and never thought we'd see or never thought we'd see again on the reissues. Count me as self centered but it is my own best interest to buy your products and help keep your company in business and producing new kits.


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## GordonMitchell (Feb 12, 2009)

I've never had any complaints for any of the companies that I bought models from,I have more to be grateful for now than in the 70's for Sci-fi kits and figure kits,and I'm cetainly not looking for any company CO give us reasons why things are expensive or otherwise,models are still good value for money,still try our paitence and still relax unlike so many computer games that wind you up and stress you to the limit,so more power to Dave and Frank and all the other companies that are trying to keep our hobby alive,
cheers and a meery Xmas all,
Gordon:thumbsup:


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## RogueJ (Oct 29, 2000)

I just want to thank Dave, Frank and all of Moebius Models for the fine kits they produce. Without them, odds are we wouldn't have all the wonderful kits (perfect or not) we've wished for through the years. And the ones to yet to come.

Thanks again.


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## BatToys (Feb 4, 2002)

To think Aurora made 600,000 of each kit and today it's less than 10,000. But modern technology has improved kit quality.


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

*Mostly understood, but in the case of the LIS foot seams that would seem to have been an obvious easy fix.In addition, the factories I worked with, do not charge to fix mistakes, if it was misinterpreted by them..

Z *


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Everything is a compromise at some stage and everything has a deadline. I think it's cool that people are expert enough to spot the flaws and such and the internet allows them to give feedback. I LOVE reading their critiques and NEVER take it personally in defense of anyone as I've seen so many cybermartyrs attempt to do for their idols. 

I also think it's good when the customers concede to reality at some point, cool off, and accept imperfection instead of the Nomad solution.

What I hate to see is when company spokesmen get overly defensive and denigrate those whose passion may lead them to be a little more vociferous or even wrongheaded about something. 

It may be the result of a lack of understanding or even someone with mental problems attacking the manufacturer. But you know what? THE (POTENTIAL) CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT!!! Even when they're wrong, they're right. I say that to the effect that it is the producers' responsibility to do everything they can within reasonable limitations to please the customer. If they're unable to do so, they need to explain themselves as best they can and ALWAYS treat the customer with respect. 

I've seen plenty of examples of producers of kits who have acted like real jerks, to put it mildly. Patience may not always be a bottomless pit for these people (nor the rest of us) but they need to learn to at least fake it or to extricate themselves from discussions as nicely as possible instead of leaving in a huff. They frequently come off sounding like arrogant jerks in those situations and, as for me, if I don't respect someone due to the way I've witnessed them treating others, I won't even buy a perfect "grail" kit from them.

All that being said. I think Mr. Metzner's response above was very well stated, very calm, clear, and educational. Most importantly of all, it was respectful. Others could take a very good lesson from him in how to respond to critics and their critiques.


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## Schumacher330 (Nov 8, 2010)

Mr Metzner posted these same thoughts on a model car board and get got a whole different level of response and respect on there and not in a good way.

:thumbsup: to you guys!


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## SUNGOD (Jan 20, 2006)

Interesting to read that and I don't think many would argue with that but I can't help thinking there's a big difference between getting an old car accurate to something like a fictional ship from a sci fi series.

Obviously I'm not talking hundreds of Pounds/Dollars but I'd rather pay more for a more accurate and detailed Orion and Galactica for instance.


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## scooke123 (Apr 11, 2008)

I thought he stated his case in an informative and respectful manner.


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## spawndude (Nov 28, 2007)

I will never understand the "rivet counters". They fall into my "get a life" category. Like the real thing had 10 rivets not 9 like the model does! Or the movie spaceship was flat white not chalk white!!!

The real things are made out of metal, glass, rubber, wood, etc. all with a set of chemical and physical properties. The models are made of plastic. How do the rivet counters justify that?


The fictional items are not real, they were never and will never be functional. Many times they are a conglomeration of parts from tank, ship, aircraft, etc kits glued onto something the prop man made from some material just because he thought it would look cool.

Granted a kit maker should get as close as reasonably possible to the original but there is a realistic limit that involves time and money. I suppose it boils down to one's definition of "reasonable".

An inaccuracy due to a total screw up on the makers part is one thing. An inaccuracy due to the time and expense of making it right is very different.


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## DCH10664 (Jul 16, 2012)

Having just got back into modeling after many years. I find that these new Moebius kits are fantastic !! IMO the details and accuracy are light years beyond what I used to put together as a kid. And some of the old kits, from various makers, were near impossible to get together. And make them look right. And that's one of the reasons many of my old models ended up at the mercy of fire crackers etc.
If it didn't look right I didn't want it on my shelf. And so KaBooM !!!

I know there will always be those that will nit pick something to death. But in regards to the recent Moebius kits. IMO, most of the complaints I hear, aren't really worth mentioning.
When I take into account the countless dollars I spent on some truly terrible kits as a kid. And then also take into account the detailing, accuracy, and price of the average Moebius kit. I really have no complaints.


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## RSN (Jul 29, 2008)

Well said Dave! I have been posting those same points here for years and met with about the same response from the same people. I have NEVER been disappointed by a Moebius kit. Are they always "perfect"? No, but neither am I, so like myself, I deal with the imperfections, one way or another, and move on! I know some things that are in development, that have not been announced and I look forward to 21015 and beyond with Moebius!!!


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## irishtrek (Sep 17, 2005)

Thank you Dave Metzner for explain why some kits keep getting delayed time and time again, now I know why TOS Galactica kept getting delayed last winter.


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## WOI (Jun 28, 2012)

That thought had crossed my mind from time to time,mostly I believe it's
because the model makers and designers that the companies hire are a
lazy bunch of slackers who really don't care enough to put their hearts
and souls into their work,who also don't enough detailed research into
the kits that they design and plainly they just care more about the money
than the expectations of the model builders and the fans.


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## spock62 (Aug 13, 2003)

I think Mr. Metzner’s article was well written and clearly lays out what goes into the development of Moebius kits. It’s the first article I recall reading from someone that’s actually in the industry today and knows exactly how things are done. Based on what he wrote, it’s actually pretty amazing the we get quality kits from Moebius at all!

I feel Moebius, overall, does a great job with their kits. They’ve made many kits that I’ve wanted and never thought I would see. But, their not perfect, and shouldn’t be given a “pass” just because their the only game in town for a particular Sci-Fi subject you covet.

However you feel about Moebius and their products, the fact is that they make some major mistakes on many of their “hardware” kits. Some mistakes are minor and best left to the “rivet counter” guys to ponder, I’m more concerned about mistakes that stick out like sore thumbs. Take the BSG Colonial Viper Mk I for example.

The first photo is of the original full size prop. Notice the detail between the engine covers indicated in the red rectangular box. The second photo if of the Moebius kit. As you can see, the Moebius kit is off. To correct this would require redoing the entire area. A major surgery at best.

Based on the article, Mr. Metzner is not catching mistakes, even major ones like the example I gave because he does the product development for just about every kit Moebius produces, so he’s working on 20 some-odd kits at a time. Based on my experience, when you have one set of eyes going over a project, especially when your involved with multiple projects, your going to miss errors, including big, obvious ones. Maybe they should consider hiring another person to serve as a “error-checker”, after all, two sets of eyes is better then one!

As for the individuals here that feel that errors in these kits should be overlooked, and that we should just be thankful that we get anything from Moebius, I wonder how they would feel if other U.S. manufacturer’s were allowed to produce the same kits that Moebius does? The licenses for Sci-Fi subjects allow only the holder of the license to produce products in the U.S., which is why Revell can’t reissue BSG kits at this time. This is unlike other subjects, like military items. Competition between companies is a good thing, they know that if the screw up their kit, their competitor might produce a better version, and get the sales. Moebius _doesn’t have any competition_, if you want a BSG kit, their the only game in town. If another company also produced BSG kits, of the same subjects, at around the same price, but were more accurate, would people still view Moebius with such high regard?


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## JeffBond (Dec 9, 2013)

No, because that would prove that Dave Metzger was lying and Moebius models aren't perfect because they really don't care and it's all a conspiracy to tick off the Modeling Community.
They key phrase there is AT AROUND THE SAME PRICE. There is really no test case of this but perhaps you can take a look at the new Tamiya Star Wars kits versus the Fine Molds kits. The Fine Molds Darth Vader TIE Fighter is listed as $30.95 on starshipmodeler.com and the new Tamiya DV TIE is $27.95. Is that "around the same price"? We all know that the FM kits are the all-time greatest, most perfect SW kits ever made except for that issue with the Falcon mandibles, so for three dollars more you get a more accurate TIE, right? Except some rivet counter out there already pointed out that the Tamiya kit is more accurate in a lot of ways than the FM version. On the other hand, the Tamiya X-Wing, while beautiful in some respects, has some highly exaggerated raised panel details that drive a lot of people crazy.
I strongly suspect that these things happen on an individual basis. Some kits turn out perfect and everybody loves them. Some don't, and I seriously doubt it's because the people running model companies just don't care. As Dave said, they simply, at some point, run out of time and money and have to put the kit out. Right now I can't think of another domestic company that puts out the range of subject matter that Moebius does, and I also strongly doubt that there is anyone out there knowledgable enough in how to run a business to compete with Moebius, or we would have seen one already. Pegasus is also terrific working with a somewhat narrower range (although they've also done a lot of wonderful "golden age" subjects that Moebius probably wouldn't go after, which is great--the two companies complement each other's areas of expertise). But it's not a market that young investors are champing at the bit to dive into--it's a small market of notoriously picky people. It's funny that people look down their noses at preprinted and/or preassembled kits but then get outraged that they have to do any work to accurize some of these kits--I would think this would be where the fun is for a lot of people. We're also seeing a revolution in 3D printing that makes creating replacement/accurizing parts a breeze for people with the know-how. So in closing, MAN, what an awful time for this hobby? Am I right, ladies?


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## SUNGOD (Jan 20, 2006)

spock62 said:


> I think Mr. Metzner’s article was well written and clearly lays out what goes into the development of Moebius kits. It’s the first article I recall reading from someone that’s actually in the industry today and knows exactly how things are done. Based on what he wrote, it’s actually pretty amazing the we get quality kits from Moebius at all!
> 
> I feel Moebius, overall, does a great job with their kits. They’ve made many kits that I’ve wanted and never thought I would see. But, their not perfect, and shouldn’t be given a “pass” just because their the only game in town for a particular Sci-Fi subject you covet.
> 
> ...






I can see both points of view on this. Dave obviously knows his stuff but again I think a lot of it comes down to price and that's why we should be prepared to pay a bit more to hopefully get the kits we want. All manufacturers can do some annoying things from time to time though and even with an explanation like Daves you wonder wouldn't it have been easier and better to do it another way. That's also a good point about having more than 1 pair of eyes.


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## spock62 (Aug 13, 2003)

JeffBond said:


> No, because that would prove that Dave Metzger was lying and Moebius models aren't perfect because they really don't care and it's all a conspiracy to tick off the Modeling Community.
> They key phrase there is AT AROUND THE SAME PRICE.....


First, it's Bandai that is now making Star War kits. Fine Molds lost/didn't care to renew the Star War's license.

Second, your taking what I wrote out of context. What I wrote is: _"If another company also produced BSG kits, of the same subjects, at around the same price, *but were more accurate*, would people still view Moebius with such high regard?" _

By leaving out/ignoring the _"but were more accurate" _part, you end up missing the whole point I was trying to make. If I had said same subjects at around the same price, and left it at that, your example of Bandai vs Fine Molds kits would make sense. 

All I'm saying is that if another company was allowed to produce BSG kits at the same time Moebius was and _if_ that companies kits where _not only_ similar in price _but also_ more accurate, then I think that a lot of us would end up buying the other companies kit rather then the Moebius one. We would have a choice, just like we do with many military subjects, between different companies making the same subject, and would chose which we felt was better.

In other words if your going to spend $30+ for a 1/32 Viper Mk I, and the Moebius kit is, say 80% accurate, while Company Y's kit is, say 95% accurate, and they both cost the same plus or minus $3, you'll probably end up buying Company Y's kit. Unless your mission in life is to support Moebius no matter what.


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## SUNGOD (Jan 20, 2006)

From what I've seen the new Bandai Star Wars kits look a lot more accurate than the Fine Molds ones. It makes you wonder where Fine Molds got their info from?


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## WOI (Jun 28, 2012)

Whether you accept or disagree with my opinions about this,I was simply telling the truth,
nothing more.


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## Zombie_61 (Apr 21, 2004)

spock62 said:


> First, it's Bandai that is now making Star War kits. Fine Molds lost/didn't care to renew the Star War's license...


I find it interesting that the announcement about Bandai taking over the Star Wars license came not long after the announcement of Disney buying Lucasfilm. Personally, I think Fine Molds "lost" the Star Wars license simply because Disney already had a working relationship with Bandai; it was company politics, nothing more.



SUNGOD said:


> From what I've seen the new Bandai Star Wars kits look a lot more accurate than the Fine Molds ones. It makes you wonder where Fine Molds got their info from?


When Fine Molds first announced they were going to produce a line of Star Wars kits, many of the articles included comments to the effect that the folks at Fine Molds had been given access to the actual filming models stored at Lucasfilm (or wherever) so that they could take their own measurements and do their own research. But those articles also stated that they had a limited amount of time to examine each model, so that may explain the inaccuracies.

I'd be more interested in finding out what Bandai used as reference material. I don't know if the buyout included the original filming models, props, costumes, and what not, so I also don't know if Bandai had direct access to those items.


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## Paulbo (Sep 16, 2004)

WOI said:


> Whether you accept or disagree with my opinions about this,I was simply telling the truth,
> nothing more.


What, the post where you state that the people making model kits are a bunch of lazy slacers who don't care about models? How is that 'truth'?


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

There = A place. "Look over there."
They're = A contraction of "they are." "Look! They're over there!"
Their = Possessive form of "they." "Look! They're over there near their car!"

You're = a contraction of "you are." "You're going out tonight?"
Your = Possessive form of "you." "You're going out with your friends tonight?"
Yore = olden times. "You're going out with your friends tonight to celebrate days of yore?"
Yor = a hunter from the future, immortalized in a 1983 movie. "You're going out with your friends tonight to celebrate days of yore, and watch 'Yor, Hunter From the Future' on DVD?"


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## edge10 (Oct 19, 2013)

Paulbo said:


> What, the post where you state that the people making model kits are a bunch of lazy slacers who don't care about models? How is that 'truth'?


It is true that it is his opinion... nothing more.


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## RSN (Jul 29, 2008)

I would stay with Moebius, even if another manufacturer produced the same kit "better", just as I did when making boats, cars, tanks and planes in the '60's and '70's. I purchase out of brand loyalty, the same when buying spaghetti sauce or bread. I don't look at the price, I purchase what I know to be reliable. Sometimes I add more garlic or pepper to the sauce, just to make it my own, as I do with models. Now you can get indignant with me and tell me how I do things is wrong or just accept that I answered a question honestly, and move on.


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## Richard Baker (Aug 8, 2006)

A fictional ship is represented by a number of filming models in different scales and at times a 'full size' set prop- none of these completely agree with each other. A company has decide to merge all the references together of follow a particular representative model. Detail from glued on model kits on the filming miniature as to be scratch built or approximated in alternate scales and the 'full size' props are often fudged to fit on a sound stage and look good from just a couple of angles.

I completely understand the issues of trying to mass produce a replica of a complex subject. A something like Galactica's Morser (sp?) detail pieces are distinctive and very hard to duplicate on a mass production kit. They are approximated and if a builder has to have a better version there is always shapeways or photoetch. Some changes are necessitated by the production process and parts count- the more complex a kit is the more expensive it is and not many people can by a perfect kit at any cost. Finemold's choice of how they made the 1/72 Falcon followed the original production version- a basic hull and all the detail pieces are added on top of that. It creates a wonderful model but there is no way on Earth I can ever own one- far too expensive.
Things like the Mandible issue or the Galactica Bridge seem frustrating- you have perfection elsewhere why not have it everywhere? I think sometimes these are caught too late in the production process to fix without having to retool, a judgment call is made on whether it is going to be a real problem or if it is something that will not be a deal breaker for the buyer. If it really bothers you, there are solutions to it other have done that you can do also- that is part of the fun of building.
Moebius goes out of it's way to make a kit fun to build and enhance. They provide early copies to aftermarket people to prepare enhancements for in time for the kit's release, they have a parts breakdown and clear pieces if you want to add lighting or super detail- these are the kits I wished were being made when I was young.


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

*I know I'm gonna catch a bit of flak for this, but Dave is not a "figure/sci fi hardware " guy..He is a car kit guy, and never did have much regard for any of the Aurora kits that were repopped back in the day, or for much anything else not in his ballpark of interest, which I certainly think doesn't help in the R & D of these subjects we all like, since in my opinion, you have to have an interest in this for the best accuracy in the first place, since its no longer kids building, but a niche market, which are adults . My take on my example of the Moebius LIS Robot was him probably saying " oh, its no big deal..An experienced modeler will fix that", and left it in our capable laps, since it was not his area of interest anyway. What he failed to realize is what a pain in the butt it was to get rid of those deep seams, that could have been easily avoided, not to mention, it was not on the filming suit.He used to love pointing out aurora's enjineering mistakes" but in some cases, they did a better job on tooling than he approved from China, such as the LIS robot treads.Its not "rivet counting"..its practicality. And lastly, at the risk of repetition, as I have been involved in model kit development, the factory usually does not charge to adjust tooling due to design mistakes if they misunderstood them. 

To be clear in my view: I love most of Moebius stuff, and bought alot of em, and still intend to as long as it is a subject I am interested in..But they are NOT cheap. For those prices, a better ease of assembly would be nice, and some better instruction sheets would also be a plus. A "picture" of the kit built , is not as beneficial to the builder as a part diagram showing individual parts and where they go..I'm not saying that was done all the time, but in some cases, it was, which to me, showed a lack of interest and a just "hurry up and get it out" mode of thinking. I am assuming the reason for that post of his, is that he has received a fair amount of complaints. Of course it's impossible to satisfy everyone, but again, some issues can be avoided.

Now I am not saying Dave is lying, but he may be "exaggerating" just a bit, and looking to take a bit of the heat off him..my recommendation on that would be to have a more discerning eye on the test shots coming in from China..No kit can be 100% perfect..but some annoying mistakes can be avoided, if one looks at it from the modelers point of view.

Z*


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## RSN (Jul 29, 2008)

Never understood why such a big deal was made out of the tread seams. Took me under an hour of filler putty, supper glue and sanding to get rid of them. Guess it depends on your skill level?!!


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## teslabe (Oct 20, 2007)

RSN said:


> Never understood why such a big deal was made out of the tread seams. Took me under an hour of filler putty, supper glue and sanding to get rid of them. Guess it depends on your skill level?!!


I'm with you, it took me less the 10 minutes using Evergreen's 9010 plan white sheet styrene....


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## RSN (Jul 29, 2008)

teslabe said:


> I'm with you, it took me less the 10 minutes using Evergreen's 9010 plan white sheet styrene....


An even better solution! It used to take me way longer to get the top and bottom seam on a 747 filled and smooth, it is all part of the hobby.


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## irishtrek (Sep 17, 2005)

Yes it is frustrating having to deal with inaccuracies in model kits but the way I see it is it goes with the territory.


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## JeffBond (Dec 9, 2013)

I really don't even think it's an issue of brand loyalty; most of us buying this stuff are obsessive about the subjects and we'll probably buy ALL versions of a given subject we love regardless of who makes it. The point about BANDAI (my sincere apologies) vs. Fine Molds is that there is no guarantee ANY company is going to put out a perfect line of models that will please everyone. Fine Molds is always thrown up as the example of the highest achievement in this area yet even they have had "inaccuracies" (which are almost always arguable due to the many different versions of miniatures and full scale props the kits are based on) that drive people crazy. So what is this fictional competitor for Moebius--who has produced a broad, varied line of sci-fi kits that are "reasonably priced" and fantastically accurate and engineered so that no modeler would ever think of complaining about them? If they existed I suppose I'd buy models from them, but I'd probably also buy models from those other, imperfect model companies out of curiosity if nothing else.


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## spock62 (Aug 13, 2003)

Regarding fit of parts, I feel that Zathros is right, new-tool kits should be engineered to go together so as to eliminate major seams. I expect bad fit and inaccuracies in older kits made 30 plus years ago, but not from kits that have just come out.

Spending an hour of applying putty/sanding or having to use thin sheet plastic to cover up the seams shouldn't have to be done on a kit that came out within the last year. 

To say, in effect, that's the way it is, so live with it or imply that pointing out such issues reflects on the person's lack of modeling skill is missing the point. 

Dealing with ill fitting kits is nothing new, and most of us putty and sand away...but it doesn't mean we enjoy it. Especially when the kit in question is a new-tool kit from the last year or so. I think most expect a new-tool kit to have near excellent part fit given how much kit manufacture has progressed since the '50's.

If Mr. Metzner really isn't into the Sci-Fi side of model kits, it shouldn't matter since it's his _job_ to develop/oversee *ALL* the kits produced by Moebius. His preference shouldn't have an influence. But, I do think they should have someone who's into the Sci-FI side of things. Couldn't hurt, could it?

Moebius is like most companies, some products are really good, some have issues. I can say that I've never felt any of their kits I purchased were totaly bad. But, some have accuracy issues and fit issues that are puzzling, especially since other kits by them are pretty darn good in those areas. I think they simply need to focus more on finding errors in the CAD files BEFORE any tools are cut. Kind of a check twice, cut once sort of thing. Having another "pair of eyes" to look over Mr. Metzner's work wouldn't hurt either.


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

*In addition, as was said. with today's tooling technology, there should be no reason whatsoever to have badly misaligned pins on any parts..the only way that could happen, and get by to mass production, is that the test shot wasn't properly checked, and quickly approved, in the case ( again) of the LIS Robots left to right joining of the tread sections..The pins to holes on one inner plate was quite badly misaligned, so much so, it would have been impossible to set the robot down with both tread halves completely flat unless it was corrected by hand, or it would have been lop sided...are we all perfect? of course not, but again, that problem should have been easily seen,l if anyone built the pattern that was supposed to QA it..It is a $40.00 kit.

Z*


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

spock62 said:


> Regarding fit of parts, I feel that Zathros is right, new-tool kits should be engineered to go together so as to eliminate major seams. I expect bad fit and inaccuracies in older kits made 30 plus years ago, but not from kits that have just come out.
> 
> Spending an hour of applying putty/sanding or having to use thin sheet plastic to cover up the seams shouldn't have to be done on a kit that came out within the last year.
> 
> ...


*Something else comes to mind, now that I am on this (rant)..lol..The MOM creature aurora repop...I got three of them, and all three of them had very rough surface contour on the bases..Now that, is a manufacturer oversight. All it takes is a phone call or an e-mail to the manufacturer to let them know they did not polish  that part of the mold...It would not have been an extra charge...UNLESS...the QA man approved it , probably having never seen an unbuilt original. I know, to most of you, that's no big issue..I took care of it myself, but again my point is that I should not have to have taken care of that. It annoyed me that I had to.

Moebius is a small operation..anyone can become a Model kit company..all you need is a computer, phone, and rent warehouse space..Everything else happens in China mostly..Most of the time Frank unloads shipments from the dock to the warehouse himself, or he hires hands for the day for that. Dave learned about Kit production from working with Tom Lowe, and Polar lights.
back in the day..You don't need any engineering or hands on production experience, but many companies like this, try to be run as if they do.

Moebius has done a fine job for the most part, as for the cons, I have already stated them from my point of view. Any test shots of anything I ever got in for approval I always went over very carefully, and any issues, I immediately had rectified, as I always looked at it from the modelers point of view.

Z*


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

RSN said:


> Never understood why such a big deal was made out of the tread seams. Took me under an hour of filler putty, supper glue and sanding to get rid of them. Guess it depends on your skill level?!!


* No offense, RSN, but its surprising to hear for you, between putty drying time, and sanding it took that short of a time..I am assuming you used a blow dryer to dry the putty, and an electric sander..I have seen dozens of posts from other members in this, and other forums that it took them repeated applications of putty, as well as some sheet plastic to correct that poor molding design. it took me Three applications, and between as I said, drying time, and hand sanding, it took me much longer than under an hour to eradicate them on a $40.00 new kit, and I have been building for 45 years.. I don't think skill was the issue here. There was also a "gap" between the halves so that when joined, they were not a flush fit, causing the putty to "sink in", hence repeated applications, which was a "stellar" QA job on that test shot...( he says facetiously). I would have expected that from someone who had never seen the show, or the robot, or of course , had no interest in accuracy, or ease of assembly.

Z*


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## RSN (Jul 29, 2008)

Zathros said:


> * No offense, RSN, but its surprising to hear for you, between putty drying time, and sanding it took that short of a time..I am assuming you used a blow dryer to dry the putty, and an electric sander..I have seen dozens of posts from other members in this, and other forums that it took them repeated applications of putty, as well as some sheet plastic to correct that poor molding design. it took me Three applications, and between as I said, drying time, and hand sanding, it took me much longer than under an hour to eradicate them on a $40.00 new kit, and I have been building for 45 years.. I don't think skill was the issue here. There was also a "gap" between the halves so that when joined, they were not a flush fit, causing the putty to "sink in", hence repeated applications, which was a "stellar" QA job on that test shot...( he says facetiously). I would have expected that from someone who had never seen the show, or the robot, or of course , had no interest in accuracy, or ease of assembly.
> 
> Z*


No offence taken. I didn't sit there and wait for it to dry, I have a life! Let me describe it so you understand. I applied a generous amount of glue to soften the plastic so it fused thoroughly and let dry. Then a liberal amount of filler and let dry followed by a quick sanding. Then over coated the puttied seam with super glue and let it dry. then a final sand and some small clean up spots. All told, about an hour, if that, of work. Call ma a liar if you like, but each of my builds were done this way and in that time frame. As I said, it depends on your skill level!!


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

RSN said:


> No offence taken. I didn't sit there and wait for it to dry, I have a life! Let me describe it so you understand. I applied a generous amount of glue to soften the plastic so it fused thoroughly and let dry. Then a liberal amount of filler and let dry followed by a quick sanding. Then over coated the puttied seam with super glue and let it dry. then a final sand and some small clean up spots. All told, about an hour, if that, of work. Call ma a liar if you like, but each of my builds were done this way and in that time frame. As I said, it depends on your skill level!!


*I wouldn't call you a liar, RSN, as we each have our own methods. As I said, I ain't no new kid on the block. I fill as I always have done, and for the most part, with excellent results, but skill is not the issue...what I wrote earlier was....NO one should have needed a "special skill level" to assemble the bottom treads , and correct the misaligned pins on that kit.. case closed for me on that , as I have a life too!

Z*


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## RSN (Jul 29, 2008)

Again, every model needs seam cleanup, whether a person feels it is in the right place or not. Here are my two builds, that required no extra effort then I put into any other kit. One problem I did overcome, yet did not cry like a baby about, was the fact that not all of the tread section with the soil sampler was formed right. There was a large amount of plastic that did not fill the mold. Anyone could have called Moebius to request a replacement, of they could have come on here and whined about how they should not have to put up with this type of thing in 2014, but I simply created a plug out of a few sheets of laminated plastic. I also made a compartment inside the tread for the sampler so it was not just the hollow tread. didn't need to, just wanted to, 'cuz modeling is fun! I find it is more constructive, pun intended, to be positive, instead of acting like a victim!!


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## RSN (Jul 29, 2008)

Also notice that Moebius did a wonderful job on the dome seam. This was another area people complained about before the kit came out. As you can see, with just using clear canopy glue, it is almost invisible, even at close range in this photo. A great kit and I look forward to ALL Moebius has to offer in the future. Thank you Frank and Dave!!


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## Neo-uk (May 6, 2007)

Some people are never happy.


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

RSN said:


> Again, every model needs seam cleanup, whether a person feels it is in the right place or not. Here are my two builds, that required no extra effort then I put into any other kit. One problem I did overcome, yet did not cry like a baby about, was the fact that not all of the tread section with the soil sampler was formed right. There was a large amount of plastic that did not fill the mold. Anyone could have called Moebius to request a replacement, of they could have come on here and whined about how they should not have to put up with this type of thing in 2014, but I simply created a plug out of a few sheets of laminated plastic. I also made a compartment inside the tread for the sampler so it was not just the hollow tread. didn't need to, just wanted to, 'cuz modeling is fun! I find it is more constructive, pun intended, to be positive, instead of acting like a victim!!


*Well, obviously, you missed my point...As I said , for the most part, I have been satisfied with Moebius' releases, and if I was the only "whiner", then Dave would not have felt it necessary to have made that post.In fact, I believe this is the only time I have pointed out these kit issues, It's not "whining"..Its about what I said earlier..It gets very tiresome
whenever anyone mentions a design tooling issue we get accused of "whining", or a "crybaby"..I don't placate manufacturers..I point out issues that could have been avoided. I don't prefer to pay for kits and then have to create my own parts that should have been manufactured correctly..if that's the case, then why bother to purchase the kit at all?? just scratch build my own..We buy the kit so we don't have to!..we are not "victims!" we are customers. Gee, thanks for making me aware that every kit needs some cleanup..I never would have known that , since in the 40 or so years I have been doing this, I have over 100 kits built and finished on my shelves, and have about 250 unbuilt in my stash.. I am not talking about accuracy,or general cleanup and assembly, etc.....I am talking about fixing a mistake than many, besides me, found to be a pain in the neck, that again, could have been avoided from such a professional company, that charges $40.00 for the frickin kit . Yes, we are all skilled builders. But that does not mean we have to accept anything as is and say nothing for fear of hurting the manufacturers feelings..Yes, you are correct that its supposed to be fun..When it becomes work, then the fun ends...The manufacturer needs us more than we need them.So there should be no issue from them regarding any feedback, rather than them acting like the "victims", when issues are pointed out! Well, since we are obviously going to agree to disagree, that should wrap it up nicely.
Z*


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## GEH737 (Aug 9, 1999)

A model is simply a starting point. What you do with the contents, and how far you take it is up to you. Science Fiction / Fantasy / Figures are a small niche, in an ever shrinking hobby. I seriously doubt Moebius is getting rich off of $40 robot kits. Look at other genres of models - almost $100 for the new Great Wall 1/48 F-15C Fighter - and that one generated a poop storm for its inaccuracies when it first was released - and that's a kit of a real thing, that's very popular to a much wider audience. Every single kit released has its issues - every single one. Like my local hobby shop - I choose to support Moebius because it makes my quirkly little hobby that much more enjoyable. $40 for my pal B9 - and the hours of enjoyment I'll get out of it? I consider that an exceptional value. You'd be hard pressed to find a better enjoyment time / money spent ratio for any given hobby. Can any product by any company be improved? Of course - but how much are you willing to pay for it? If producing models was such an easy business, I'm guessing we'd see a lot more kits produced, by a lot more companies. Since we don't, I'm also guessing that it's a lot harder than it looks. I don't think that anyone doubted for years that the Aurora B9 was going to be the only injection molded kit they ever saw of that guy. I'm happy as can be that there's any interest in Lost in Space 50 years on. The only down side is - naaah, there isn't one. Anyway - here's my old Aurora Robot that I built about 15 years ago - and I was able to make him look OK...


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## seaQuest (Jan 12, 2003)

I had absolutely no issues building Moebius original series Battlestar Galactica kit. No fit issues and no seam filler needed, and I built two simultaneously.

However, the Batman 66 figure does have seam issues. 

Nobody's perfect.


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## RSN (Jul 29, 2008)

seaQuest said:


> I had absolutely no issues building Moebius original series Battlestar Galactica kit. No fit issues and no seam filler needed, and I built two simultaneously.
> 
> However, the Batman 66 figure does have seam issues.
> 
> Nobody's perfect.


I quickly discovered what I thought were seam issues on Batman were really seams in the actual costume that were incorporated into the sculpt od the kit. Gloves, boots and the back of the cowl.


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## hal9001 (May 28, 2008)

Boy, talk about a stinker of a kit. Look how there's too many points on the lighting bolt and the color of the moon in the background is the wrong color and how about the mountains? Way too far back. What was Aurora thinking? Too many grains of sand on the base even. Couldn't they get anything right? No wonder they went under.... If I spend a buck on a kit (back then) I expected it to be absolutely 1,000% accurate. After all, isn't that what 10 yr. olds were looking for back in the 60's?

When we got all _growed_ up we wanted more. More details better accuracy. More, more, more and the price went up, up, up along with the chance for the model companies to get stuff wrong.

So, I guess in the end *'we'* are at fault. Way to go guys....

Carl-


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## GEH737 (Aug 9, 1999)

Everybody would like to have the "perfect" kit, but I'd guess that will always be elusive. In the model aircraft world, Revell recently released a 1/32 Spitfire Mk.II, a very eagerly anticipated kit from a well respected kit maker with very deep pockets and lots of actual aircraft to look at. Well... lots of errors in the kit (retail around $30.00) - and guys are at a total loss as to how it could have happened. Eduard (a very well respected European model maker / aftermarket king) released a highly anticipated Bf-109 in 1/48th scale ($40 to $100 depending on the version). Over 34,000 real ones were produced - they have access to real ones in museums - and still - they got the measurements wrong. WWII German aircraft buffs are shocked and dismayed that the dimensions are incorrect. On every aircraft modeling forum - guys knock kits long before the plastic ever touches their hands. It's a common thread - we all have favorite subjects - we want them to be as close to perfection as possible - at a price we think is reasonable. I still want a 1/32nd scale Northrop T-38 Talon - and their isn't one. As a LIS fan since the airing of the first show - I've been envious of the Star Trek / Star Wars modeling fans because they've always had so much to choose from while LIS was left out. With Polar Lights and Moebius - obscure subjects that I've been a fan of are now possible, which I thought never would happen. It would seem (to me) that support and constructive critique along with getting the most out of the kit would be of the most help. I thought Dave's letter put it out there very well. I'm not trying to dog anyone, or suggest that critique isn't warranted. I'm suggesting that support for the kits we love, and how to improve on them will take us further down the path of enjoying the hobby, and producing better models for us to enjoy. I mean no disrespect to anyone's opinion - which we're all certainly entitled to.

George


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

GEH737 said:


> Everybody would like to have the "perfect" kit, but I'd guess that will always be elusive. In the model aircraft world, Revell recently released a 1/32 Spitfire Mk.II, a very eagerly anticipated kit from a well respected kit maker with very deep pockets and lots of actual aircraft to look at. Well... lots of errors in the kit (retail around $30.00) - and guys are at a total loss as to how it could have happened. Eduard (a very well respected European model maker / aftermarket king) released a highly anticipated Bf-109 in 1/48th scale ($40 to $100 depending on the version). Over 34,000 real ones were produced - they have access to real ones in museums - and still - they got the measurements wrong. WWII German aircraft buffs are shocked and dismayed that the dimensions are incorrect. On every aircraft modeling forum - guys knock kits long before the plastic ever touches their hands. It's a common thread - we all have favorite subjects - we want them to be as close to perfection as possible - at a price we think is reasonable. I still want a 1/32nd scale Northrop T-38 Talon - and their isn't one. As a LIS fan since the airing of the first show - I've been envious of the Star Trek / Star Wars modeling fans because they've always had so much to choose from while LIS was left out. With Polar Lights and Moebius - obscure subjects that I've been a fan of are now possible, which I thought never would happen. It would seem (to me) that support and constructive critique along with getting the most out of the kit would be of the most help. I thought Dave's letter put it out there very well. I'm not trying to dog anyone, or suggest that critique isn't warranted. I'm suggesting that support for the kits we love, and how to improve on them will take us further down the path of enjoying the hobby, and producing better models for us to enjoy. I mean no disrespect to anyone's opinion - which we're all certainly entitled to.
> 
> George


*I've supported Moebius and Polar lights, as well as Atlantis, and Pegasus since they all started, and worked as a consultant for some of them, and still plan to support them as long as they produce something I want. I bought at least 2 of each kit from them all that was in my area of interest. Of course anyone's comments in any forum will be agreed or disagreed with. Alot of times "constructive criticism" is misconstrued as "bashing". As I said in an earlier post, I believe this is the very first time I ever pointed out any issues from any of these manufacturers, and I have a two closets full of their products. and yes, I look for value for my buck, and as much accuracy as possible. Again, its not about accuracy for me, as much as it is tooling design. I'm primarily an Aurora guy, but since my Aurora collection is complete, I branched out and the LIS subjects that Moebius did were great choices. I still love the Aurora LIS robot for what it is..a great nostalgia piece from back in the day. I built 2 of the Moebius Robots. One was a paid job, and one was for me. and out of all Moebius' kits, that one had tooling issues that could be avoided, that one would have expected back in the 60's with their level of technology, and not with today's technology. If the point is missed, so be it...Isn't more to say on that than I already did.

Z *


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## SUNGOD (Jan 20, 2006)

Let's not forget that we're all customers or potential customers and we're perfectly entitled to talk about both the positives and negatives on what we spend our hard earned money on whilst forums like these exist and it's really annoying when people are called whiners if they talk about the things they don't think are so good.

Everyone I'm sure on here thinks Moebius are great and glad they exist but that doesn't mean they should be above any criticism like some people seem to think. The negative comments against Moebius are pretty small anyway.

Obviously no model is perfect but models have only got better over the years precisely because of the "whiners" and people pointing out how they think things could have been done better. Model companies aren't gods who know everything after all.


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

SUNGOD said:


> Let's not forget that we're all customers or potential customers and we're perfectly entitled to talk about both the positives and negatives on what we spend our hard earned money on whilst forums like these exist and it's really annoying when people are called whiners if they talk about the things they don't think are so good.
> 
> Everyone I'm sure on here thinks Moebius are great and glad they exist but that doesn't mean they should be above any criticism like some people seem to think. The negative comments against Moebius are pretty small anyway.
> 
> Obviously no model is perfect but models have only got better over the years precisely because of the "whiners" and people pointing out how they think things could have been done better. Model companies aren't gods who know everything after all.


*Nice to see someone finally  understood my point..

Z*


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## seaQuest (Jan 12, 2003)

RSN said:


> I quickly discovered what I thought were seam issues on Batman were really seams in the actual costume that were incorporated into the sculpt od the kit. Gloves, boots and the back of the cowl.


Yeah, I caught those. The cowl "gap" is a dart in the cowl's pattern.


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## irishtrek (Sep 17, 2005)

hal9001 said:


> Boy, talk about a stinker of a kit. Look how there's too many points on the lighting bolt and the color of the moon in the background is the wrong color and how about the mountains? Way too far back. What was Aurora thinking? Too many grains of sand on the base even. Couldn't they get anything right? No wonder they went under.... If I spend a buck on a kit (back then) I expected it to be absolutely 1,000% accurate. After all, isn't that what 10 yr. olds were looking for back in the 60's?
> 
> When we got all _growed_ up we wanted more. More details better accuracy. More, more, more and the price went up, up, up along with the chance for the model companies to get stuff wrong.
> 
> ...


Don't forget it's on an alien planet most likely.


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