# Theory on AW Poll



## Slots-101 (Aug 21, 2007)

Here's the theory
It seems that there are a lot of master cases out there missing the same 5 cars. I'll bet you would have no problem ordering those cars direct from AW. Just another plot by TL to sell more cars at 14.95 each. He claims to have stopped forcing the collector to buy the regular cars from him at retail , this seems to be a way to direct the collector back for the regular cars once again , You have to give him some credit for his slickness..
Just a theory..

I hope I did this poll correct


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## T-Jet Racer (Nov 16, 2006)

It is as they stated, it is a chase type marketing scheme. I am not fond of it and I am happy it will end with r5. I hope that they get more color options with future releases.


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## noddaz (Aug 6, 1999)

I don't think that there is anything slick there...
Just the way things work out...

Scott


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## A/FX Nut (May 28, 2004)

I'm not even going to vote. I don't think Mr. Lowe is trying to be " slick ".
He's a business man, trying to run a profitable company. Randy.


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## mrwillysgasser (Jan 3, 2002)

some of us really enjoy this forum .Please do not start crap here .take it somewhere else please .Hank will pull the whole slot forum if we dont police ourselfs .*how does this poll help our hobby?* Tom has said if you dont like the way he does his thing dont buy it. You buy a random packed case and ask for sealed you get what you ask for.*nuff said.*


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## videojimmy (Jan 12, 2006)

I'm just glad I got my Ford GT's for 14 bucks a piece, instead of the 24 bucks some dealers are charging... GO BUDS HO!


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## Slots-101 (Aug 21, 2007)

mrwillysgasser said:


> some of us really enjoy this forum .Please do not start crap here .take it somewhere else please .Hank will pull the whole slot forum if we dont police ourselfs .*how does this poll help our hobby?* Tom has said if you dont like the way he does his thing dont buy it. You buy a random packed case and ask for sealed you get what you ask for.*nuff said.*


I just find it funny that most cases are missing the same 5 cars & there is no problem ordering them at retail from AW..I am not trying to hurt this Hobby , I love this Hobby. Deceptive selling tactics are whats pissing people off & hurting this great Hobby..Read for yourself right here about how many people no longer buy cases , just a few loose cars with all the BS they have been pulling. I started this poll so TL could see what people are feeling. Hey maybe am wrong , but when I got my Masters in business they teach you to be deceptive & sneaky. Its all part of business. Trump 101
I don't mean to offend anyone in this Forum & apoligize to those I did. This is a great Forum for the hobby..

Slots-101


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

No offense taken.


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## Slots-101 (Aug 21, 2007)

videojimmy said:


> I'm just glad I got my Ford GT's for 14 bucks a piece, instead of the 24 bucks some dealers are charging... GO BUDS HO!


autoworldslots had them listed at 12.00 & sold them out in 2 days. I got 2 of each for 53.95 shipped. I think he had 15 of each available. Go autoworldslots


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## videojimmy (Jan 12, 2006)

I like autoworld too. I just bought a few from them today


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## JordanZ870 (Nov 25, 2004)

Tom isn't gettig slick, but I think his workforce is simply getting bored. "Pack them randomly, please."

Ok....lets see how many cases we can randomly pack the same with the least amount of brain-power used.

A supervisor says "Pack them like this." Gives one example and walks away......
It isn't too much of a stretch for the imagination to see some poor underpaid worker (not Toms employeees) wondering why this "Crazy American car guy" (Tom) wants them all packed the same way with doubles of some cars and missing others. *shrug*


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## SplitPoster (May 16, 2006)

You know, when I pack for a trip the items on top of the stack are the ones most likely to be packed. Same with packing a case, fill the box with whatever is lined up. How and why it got organized that way is anyone's guess. Maybe the first cars received got packed and shipped.

You can criticize the outcome, whether intentional or not, clearly not much thought was given to varying the contents of cases at their origination. 

If these were "toys" it would be no big deal, it's SOP, but they're not being sold as toys, are they?

It is more profitable for the company obviously - cars have been purchased that otherwise would not have been, and if returned/exchanged they are not going back to the source. Whether that was due to simple oversight, pure apathy, or somebody looking to maximize sales and profits is anyone's guess. You'll never know the truth one way or the other.


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

No one has wailed against the marketing stategy of AW more than I. However, the approach AW has taken is well publicized. They make no secret of the fact that not all the cars are produced in the same quantity. Dealers and vendors (and some customers) are also well aware of the fact that the cases are randomly packed.
While I think this approach is wrongheaded and counterproductive, there is nothing slick or devious. It is very straightforward, promoted on their website and actually considered a virtue by AW.
It is your decision whether you wish to spend the time and energy necessary to chase down the car you want. It is the dealer's decision as to whether they wish to order black-box cases and sort out the cars.
If you buy a sealed case knowing it is randomly packed, what did you expect? You could get a case filled with all the same car. Should you really be surprised?
I understand that you may believe TL is holding back some cars purposely. It's possible - anything is possible. But if a vast majority support AW's marketing stategy and "chase" scenerio by continuing to buy the product despite the difficulties, you then reap what you sow.

Joe


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## videojimmy (Jan 12, 2006)

I heard the brown Chevy's were hard to get. I bought one today for 12 bucks form Autoworld, so they can't be that hard to track down

Still, Tom is a sharp guy. I have a hard time believeing that anything AW does is by accident, but that's just me.


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## Slots-101 (Aug 21, 2007)

Grandcheapskate said:


> While I think this approach is wrongheaded and counterproductive, there is nothing slick or devious. It is very straightforward, promoted on their website and actually considered a virtue by AW.
> It is your decision whether you wish to spend the time and energy necessary to chase down the car you want. It is the dealer's decision as to whether they wish to order black-box cases and sort out the cars.
> I understand that you may believe TL is holding back some cars purposely. It's possible - anything is possible. But if a vast majority support AW's marketing stategy and "chase" scenerio by continuing to buy the product despite the difficulties, you then reap what you sow.
> 
> Joe


I just find it funny that you can go to their website & purchase the missing cars at retail with no problem..They don't seem to be missing any of the harder to find cars.. First the whites & now the regular cars too . What next ?


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

Slots-101 said:


> I just find it funny that you can go to their website & purchase the missing cars at retail with no problem..They don't seem to be missing any of the harder to find cars.. First the whites & now the regular cars too . What next ?


 As I said, their marketing stategy is wrongheaded and counterproductive. But dealers are ordering and guys are buying.
One could easily assume that AW makes sure that it's inventory is complete. Certainly, if AW is selling complete sets on the website, you can be sure they are not going through randomly packed cases and putting the sets together. They are insuring they have an equal number of each car; otherwise, how could they sell complete sets?
But like I said, it is all laid out there for everyone to see. You may consider it slick, and to a certain extent it is slick, but it is not secretive and it will not sneak up on you. It is slick in the sense that since it is difficult to find some cars with your favorite dealer, you may decide to buy from the website. It is really the dealers who lose in this scenerio and they are really the only people in a position to force changes.
It is certainly not the way I would do it, and I'm sure AW has lost many collectors because of it.
It's quite telling that only the release 2 XT iWheels have sold out; collectors are the guys who would have bought those cars. But since many collectors walked away, the "collectable/chase" cars don't mean that much.

Joe


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## Macs_Little_Car (Oct 25, 2003)

I would have bought the Release 3 iWheels, but two of them are the sa,me as release 2 and I didn't want to pay for 2 cars I already have.. they needed to change something on them, maybe leave the bird off the TA or something


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## Piz (Apr 22, 2002)

OH MY GOD ! Tom actually wants his product to sell for retail price. ! Who does he think he is ? Doesn't he know that it the God given right of every BB poster to buy NEW product at way below retail and sometime even below wholesale ! The NERVE of some people . If I were TL I would double the the retail price of my cars. You all pay dash $10.00 for a body with NO chassis and No packaging but B&M when you have to pay a penny over wholesale for a complete car . AND then have the nerve to cry that the product isn't any good. Maybe just maybe if these cars were sold at what they are supposed to be sold at , there would be enough profit to ensure better QC the first time around.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

Tom is undoubtedly a very smart guy. In fact, Toms break from RC2 is making him look even smarter now that RC2 has been caught up in the Dangerous Chinese Toys scandal. I'd imagine he is very pleased to have distanced himself from that potential train wreck, unless he still holds stock in the company. RC2 stock has taken a pounding over the past couple of months.

In the meantime, don't let the kiddies gnaw on your slot cars. You never know what's in them.


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## SplitPoster (May 16, 2006)

Joe hit the nail on the head, and it is a time tested, somewhat slick marketing strategy. Buy a sealer case, yes there is a certain degree of chance as to exactly what you will get, but there is also a complete certainty, known to the manufacturer and packager, as to what you will NOT get. Carton content/configuration is entirely done to order, not left up to chance. The only chance would be, as I said, if the manufacturer gave instructions to just pack what came through as it arrived, or however they wanted to. Unlikely, but possible.

The slickness is that it turns purchasers into resellers or traders - free promotion/advertising of the product. Raises the noise level, for free at that. That is, unless the buyer wants to keep duplicates, which is OK for AW but not as good as making product change hands and subsequently drawing a percentage of people in as new collectors or enthusiasts.

Not an unusual strategy at all, though the sealed case/"unknown only to buyer" factor isn't really a nice way to do it, as Joe said. 

I like old O gauge trains, and twice in the past month I have been presented with "sets" (not boxed, originally packaged sets) that contained a couple of things I really wanted, but they were for sale only with a bunch of stuff that I didn't want at all. I said no to both, fine if folks feel like they need to work that way, but I didn't want to take on the sellers' work for them in either instance. You make your choices. I don't want to become a defacto vendor for new slot cars, nor old train cars.


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

SplitPoster said:


> The slickness is that it turns purchasers into resellers or traders...
> 
> ...but I didn't want to take on the sellers' work for them in either instance. You make your choices. I don't want to become a defacto vendor for new slot cars, nor old train cars.


 Although it never occurred to me in exactly this way, it is a very interesting and valid point.

The real loser in the way AW markets the product is the vendor. When the manufacturer sells direct, and makes it easier or more efficient to get the product direct via the manufacturer, then the vendor loses. The vendor must be able to sell the product for a price less than or equal to the direct price, and have equal access to all the product. Otherwise, why would a customer buy from a vendor? Why as a vendor would you choose to carry a product if the manufactuer is either going to undercut the MSRP or make all the product more available if you buy direct?

Granted that AW is not undercutting the MSRP. That is good, ethical business. They are however making it easier to get complete sets direct from the website as opposed to your local or favorite vendor. That is a questionable practice, but one which is only of concern to vendors. If the vendors continue to buy the product as currently marketed, the consumer has no dog in that fight. It is the vendor who either must open and sort all the cases, or is left with too many slow sellers. The consumer can easily go to the website and order complete sets.

There's only two ways that changes. Customers stop buying the slow sellers or vendors stop ordering.

No one can argue that AW does not have more access to chase cars than vendors. Logic would dictate that they have every car in equal quantity in their stockroom.

As I said, it is not the way I would do business. I would consider my vendors and resellers the lifeblood of my business and would do everything I could to make them successful. More outlets means greater exposure and greater sales.

Joe


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## TK Solver (Mar 18, 2004)

By the economic law of supply and demand, if you want a complete set you are in the minority and you should have to pay a premium. That's the way things seem to be working out. Previously, anyone could buy cases and undercut vendor pricing by reselling via auctions. The effect was price erosion at all levels.

I believe that AW should stop releasing 12-car sets and just produce and release individual cars or small sets like Tomy does with the Chaparrals, Shelby Daytonas, etc. 

Are vendors forced to buy cases of Tomy cars which include all the different releases from the past year or can they order just the cars they want? I get the impression from some of my conversations with Bud's HO that he can order what he wants from there.


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

TK Solver said:


> By the economic law of supply and demand, if you want a complete set you are in the minority and you should have to pay a premium. That's the way things seem to be working out. Previously, anyone could buy cases and undercut vendor pricing by reselling via auctions. The effect was price erosion at all levels.
> 
> I believe that AW should stop releasing 12-car sets and just produce and release individual cars or small sets like Tomy does with the Chaparrals, Shelby Daytonas, etc.
> 
> Are vendors forced to buy cases of Tomy cars which include all the different releases from the past year or can they order just the cars they want? I get the impression from some of my conversations with Bud's HO that he can order what he wants from there.


I look at this from the opposite viewpoint. Customers willing to buy a complete set should be able to buy at a discount. Why would you charge a premium to someone for buying MORE cars? Just from a logic standpoint it doesn't make sense. The less you buy the lower the price?

As I have said before, if AW packed it's product as one car type per case, there would be no scalping or dumping. Vendors would order according to demand.

Vendors buying Tomy, Tyco or Lifelike products from distributors like REH can buy individual cars, sets, etc. There is a discount if you buy an entire case.

Joe


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## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)

I think if a dealer wants to buy a case of Ford GTs or a case of '69 Chargers he should be able to. Having an assortment case is fine to make sure you get all the cars in the set, but as a dealer if you know you are going to sell the hell out of a Torino Talladega, you should be able to order it that way.

My $.02 worth.

'doba

PS -- When are we going to get the C5-R and C6 Corvettes???????


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## 22tall (Jul 28, 2002)

Didn't Tom create iwheels to cut down on scalping? Then didn't he also create the new chase car scheme where he seems to be the main seller? Doesn't this place him on both sides of the fence?

Reminds me of when thousands of white lightning diecast cars were found in the Johnny Lightning warehouse.


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## micyou03 (Apr 8, 2003)

1976Cordoba said:


> I think if a dealer wants to buy a case of Ford GTs or a case of '69 Chargers he should be able to. Having an assortment case is fine to make sure you get all the cars in the set, but as a dealer if you know you are going to sell the hell out of a Torino Talladega, you should be able to order it that way.
> 
> My $.02 worth.
> 
> ...


I think this would be ideal.


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## sethndaddy (Dec 4, 2004)

I had to vote. Am I the only person who feels Tom is trying to please everyone with his little tweeks and twists with every release? ALL the tjets from release 4 were just AWESOME looking, and the little magnet helps Seth keep the cars on the track.
Thumbs up.


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## mrwillysgasser (Jan 3, 2002)

Ok guys, Talk about beating a dead horse .A hand full of you must do it for a living .No care about trashing in this place .This is not a place for you to come bitch about others business . You know who you are just check the locked threads from the AW board for the list of trouble makers.
*NEW RULE : If you don't have something good to say take it somewhere else!*









Again If you dont like the way people do their business .Dont give them your money!

I am asking Hank to close this thread hopfuly he dont close the whole thing down!


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

mrwillysgasser said:


> Ok guys, Talk about beating a dead horse .A hand full of you must do it for a living .No care about trashing in this place .This is not a place for you to come bitch about others business . You know who you are just check the locked threads from the AW board for the list of trouble makers.
> *NEW RULE : If you don't have something good to say take it somewhere else!*
> 
> 
> ...



Comment pending....


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## vaBcHRog (Feb 19, 2003)

Hank.

I reread all the posts and there is really no bashing going on just an adult discussion about perceived marketing strategies at AW. I don't see any reason to close this thread unless the participants start getting childish

My 2 cents

Roger Corrie
Virginia Beach, VA


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

mrwillysgasser said:


> Ok guys, Talk about beating a dead horse .A hand full of you must do it for a living .No care about trashing in this place .This is not a place for you to come bitch about others business . You know who you are just check the locked threads from the AW board for the list of trouble makers.
> *NEW RULE : If you don't have something good to say take it somewhere else!*
> 
> 
> ...


 First of all, let me say that I simply enjoy, as part of the hobby, the exchange of opinions I get on some topics. This is not serious stuff, it is toy cars. But there are times when the discussions are quite enlightening. 

I see nothing in this thread that warrants it being shut down. No one has gotten nasty, called anyone names, or challenged someone to a fight in the yard after school. There has simply been an exchange of opinions.

No matter what side of an issue you favor, a point of view can always be expressed in an intelligent, respectful manner. If you believe I am one of the posters who has a secret agenda or has not posted in the manner I described, please point out such a post to me.

However, a post such as the one to which I am responding does no one any good. The good thing about writing as opposed to an oral discussion is that you can choose your words carefully.

Obviously, you are a strong supporter of AW. Great. Your support can be expressed in a positive manner. Create counter arguments to the points raised. 

There has been both praise and criticism of AW. Deservedly so. That is the nature of opinions.

I have praised AW in a number of posts. I really appreciate the time, effort and money that Tom Lowe has invested in bringing back the old pancake cars. It has been an incredible contribution to this hobby. I think the bodies are done very well. Having never run an AW car, I can’t comment on the chassis. I have also been quite critical of the marketing techniques, although I believe it has mostly been constructive criticism - how I believe the product could be marketed better to the vendor and customer.

I collect Lifelike cars. In another thread I am trying to determine the new cars which were issued in 2007. It is not easy. Lifelike uses the same part number to issue different sets and cars. I am critical there of Lifelike's marketing technique. They should make new releases more obvious. By not doing so, they only hurt themselves with lost sales; and drive collectors nuts.

I criticize Mattel for the lack of commitment to the slot car line, the ridiculous novelty cars and track pieces they make and for the stupid letter they mold into the track surface.

Point is, I am an equal opportunity criticizer. However no one seems to take the criticism of Lifelike, Mattel or any other company personally. Only with the AW line does it seem that some take the criticism as a personal attack. Granted, there are a few who do take the criticism way too far and appropriate action should be taken.

But in a good many posts, there are valid points raised. To simply silence those criticisms, or censor them out, is not a counter argument. 

Now, if it's decided that only opinions that heap praise upon AW are appropriate and no criticisms are allowed, as appears to be the sentiment of the above post, then that new rule should be posted.

Joe


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## TK Solver (Mar 18, 2004)

Grandcheapskate said:


> I look at this from the opposite viewpoint. Customers willing to buy a complete set should be able to buy at a discount. Why would you charge a premium to someone for buying MORE cars? Just from a logic standpoint it doesn't make sense. The less you buy the lower the price?
> 
> Joe


If you wanted to buy a dozen of a common car, a discount would be appropriate, provided there was still ample supply. But with collectible cars, the idea of obtaining the entire collection in a single purchase implies obtaining something that would be of greater value (higher demand). Increased demand with limited supply = higher price.


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

Piz said:


> OH MY GOD ! Tom actually wants his product to sell for retail price. ! Who does he think he is ? Doesn't he know that it the God given right of every BB poster to buy NEW product at way below retail and sometime even below wholesale ! The NERVE of some people . If I were TL I would double the the retail price of my cars. You all pay dash $10.00 for a body with NO chassis and No packaging but B&M when you have to pay a penny over wholesale for a complete car . AND then have the nerve to cry that the product isn't any good. Maybe just maybe if these cars were sold at what they are supposed to be sold at , there would be enough profit to ensure better QC the first time around.


 The price at which a vendor/dealer sells a product has no effect on the profit of the manufacturer. The manufacturer sells a product to a distributor/reseller at a set price; what the distributor/reseller does with that product afterwards is inconsequential. The manufacturer can demand all dealers to sell on an equal footing (MSRP) - that would be in the sales contract.
The manufacturer needs to sell at a price which makes the profit necessary to continue doing business.
There is no connection between the price charged by dealers and the QC issue.

Joe


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

TK Solver said:


> If you wanted to buy a dozen of a common car, a discount would be appropriate, provided there was still ample supply. But with collectible cars, the idea of obtaining the entire collection in a single purchase implies obtaining something that would be of greater value (higher demand). Increased demand with limited supply = higher price.


 I see your point. It is not the way I would do it, but you do make a valid argument. If I could sell a complete collection at one time, I would consider that good for business and would not charge a premium. 

However, once you walk down that path, you are implying different prices for different cars. That is what started a lot of the firestorm - accusations that dealers were "scalping" the less common cars - in our case the WLs or iWheels. If it is scalping when a dealer does it, is it scalping when the manufacturer does it?

Joe


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## TK Solver (Mar 18, 2004)

For me, the issue was actually that virtually anyone could become a reseller simply by buying a sealed case, scalping the less common cars via on-line auctions and then dump the common cars well below the suggested price. This had the effect of crushing the profitability of the more dedicated resellers who actually added value to the supply chain and threatened the hobby as a whole. The tactics I'm seeing from AW seem to have stabilized things.

I understand how this topic might make others "tense" so if you want to continue, maybe we should take this to the private messages where we can exchange email addresses.


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## hankster (Jan 1, 1998)

The problem that we have here is both “beating the dead horse” and a perceived attempt to skirt the previous problems we have had on this subject. Also, the subject of the poll itself could be considered inflammatory. 

After some thought and feedback (see, I do consider your feedback) I am going to open this thread again. As long as the discussion remains civil and “non bashing” it will remain open. Pros and cons of any company is healthy and at the point where we only allow positive comments is the point where we become useless to our members.

I’ll be monitoring this thread to make sure we stay in the spirit of HobbyTalk.


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## vaBcHRog (Feb 19, 2003)

Now that cool

Thanks Hank

Roger Corrie


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## SplitPoster (May 16, 2006)

*So what is a good direction?*

I have been on the sales side, dealing with "marketing" for 25 years. Product managers and directors deciding we could or couldn't do something, and sometimes being proven wrong, selling everything from shoes to subcutaneously implantable osmotic pumps. The how and why people do what they do to promote their product does interest me. The notion that someone with major money invested in manufacturing and contracts, packaging and distribution, administration and inventory - that person operates without a plan, or outside of a set strategy? That does not make even a little bit of sense to me.

The other area of my interest is where will all this take the HO hobby? What is the value in trying to get a major piece of a small (and shrinking?) pie vs. trying to also appeal to a broader and expanding audience? A rising tide raises all ships, or instead are we fighting for the best cabin on the Titanic, while the ship goes down unnoticed? One comparitor is model railroading, as they started on this road years ago - the average age of enthusiasts, especially in large scales, is way up there - and when there are fewer and fewer operators left, what would happen to the interest of collectors, and the value of their collections? I look at strategies that model railroading has adopted to try to bring in fresh faces, the shows and operating displays, the "World's Greatest Hobby" promotion aimed at people who have never been exposed to it. Look at the success 1/32 slots have had, and it flies in the face of conventional wisdom. After all, they are too large to set up in modern homes, too expensive for cars and track, parts and acccessories, fallen out of sight years ago, they did LOL. 

I see where my son learned about what he wanted as a younger kid and now at junior high age. While everything leads to a website, TV (or internet) ads, promotion in store circulars/mailers, shelf frontage in stores, promoted contests/competitions, seeing the stuff in action, and what his friends like - all still there, like trading cards and diecast. Where is the stuff we discuss on this forum? In bits and pieces on ebay mostly. 

Everybody has their preferences and favorites - what does it mean if it ends up that a tinier and tinier handful of people are arguing inline vs flat, magnet vs fishtailers....... nuff said, there's hedges to trim and football on.


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## Crimnick (May 28, 2006)

The way I see it...we need every manufacturer we can get... :thumbsup:


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## 22tall (Jul 28, 2002)

I think the poll was directed towards collectors. How many of you no voters are or like me were collectors? I wouldn't have minded paying MSRP directly to AW if I could have gotten the car color and window combos I wanted. Now I only get what I like. Works out to be about 80 cars less for this release compared to previous releases. 

Since release 4 is out where are the numbers that AW said they would release for the R3 cars?

My other problem with AW is the constant litany of chassis problems. You can be sure that if Tyco, Tomy, Scalemaster etc continually turned out bad chassis you would be reading a lot of threads about them. Unfortunately quality control isn't very good at AW. At no time should anyone have to replace parts to get a new car working properly.

Not to sound totally negative the bodies are always very well done. Maybe AWs future is in selling bodies only.


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

TK Solver said:


> For me, the issue was actually that virtually anyone could become a reseller simply by buying a sealed case, scalping the less common cars via on-line auctions and then dump the common cars well below the suggested price. This had the effect of crushing the profitability of the more dedicated resellers who actually added value to the supply chain and threatened the hobby as a whole. The tactics I'm seeing from AW seem to have stabilized things.


 First of all, I want to thank Hank for reopening this thread. May I suggest that maybe a new forum for the business end of the hobby be opened up, where topics such as this can be discussed away from the nuts and bolts discussions of actual collecting.

TK,
The problem as I see it, from a reseller standpoint, is that when you have to order mixed cases, you either get an equal quantity of each car, or a random selection. In either case, you get (hopefully) high demand cars and low demand cars in the same box.

Let's say the high demand cars outsell the low demand cars 4 to 1 and there are no collectors who buy a complete set; all the customers are the "buy what I like" crowd.

If you put all the cars out at the same price, the high demand cars sell quick and the low demand cars hang around. Let's say there are 4 high demand (HD) cars in each case and 8 low demand ( LD) cars. Put them all out and the 4 HD sell quickly along with 1 LD. Now you need more HD cars, so you open another case. Bang - out go the 4 HD and 1 LD and you got 7 more LD cars lying around to keep the other 7 company. So, you opened 24 cars and sold 10. Now you are still sitting on 14 cars that are going to take a while to sell. Meanwhile, your customers want more of the 4 high demand cars. What do you do? Continue to stockpile the LD cars?

The only answer, when the cases are packed in mixed assortments, is to price the cars according to demand. That means some cars are going to sell for MSRP or higher, while others are going into the discount bin. You have to get the price to a point where all the cars sell equally. I do not consider that scalping. It is the only way for the dealer to have long term survival. The dealer cannot continue to accumulate slow sellers. Only by making money on the cars that sell well can the dealer continue to buy mixed cases.

The quick remedy for all scalping and price dumping, as stated a number of times, is to sell each car in it's own case. This allows the dealers to order each car based on demand and he can then sell all cars at the MSRP because he will not be stuck in the 4-to-1 ratio of the mixed cases.

On another list, the comment was made that the way a manufacturer packaged the product does not effect the consumer. It was mentioned that no one tells Coke or Anheuser-Busch how to package their product. I wrote a response to that, and why the manufacturer's packaging method does effect the end customer.

True, no one tells Coca-Cola or Anheuser-Busch how to package their product. Why? Because the product is sold to retailers by product line, not in mixed cases.
For example, let's take 2 liter bottles of the Coke family of products. Coke now sells each variety in it's own case of 6 bottles. A retailer buys the product by the case; however each case only contains one variety. The retailer is not forced to buy an equal quantity of each case. The consumer doesn't care about packaging because the reseller can order and stock product according to the demand.
Now, assume that Coke decides to package it's product in mixed cases only. Now the retailer must buy each product in equal quantity. Want a bottle of Coke Classic? You need to buy a full case which contains one bottle of CC and 5 bottles of other flavors (New Coke, Diet Coke, Coke Zero, Cherry Coke and one other random bottle).
The retailer knows that Coke Classic outsells all the other varieties, but cannot order more CC than anything else. So he orders a few cases, quickly sells out of CC (because of the demand) and is left with the other flavors. Do you order more cases to get more CC and be stuck with even more of the less popular varieties?
The customer now asks why the store no longer has CC but has tons of other flavors. The customer gets affected by the packaging stategy of the manufactuer.
This is the marketing stategy of AW. And it is why there is scalping (soon bottles of Coke Classis start showing up on eBay) and why, sooner rather than later, the retailer gets stuck with too many bottles of other Coke products and is unable and unwilling to buy more product.
And it is why people (and retailers) then switch to Pepsi, which still packs it's cases to retailers with only one variety per case. The customer likes the fact that all varieties of Pepsi are always available on store shelves and the price remains stable. The retailer likes it because he can order only the flavors he needs. The manufactuer is happy because the sales keep rolling in.
Meanwhile the Coke guy is wondering why no one is buying his product any more.

Thanks...Joe


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## sethndaddy (Dec 4, 2004)

I always disagreed with the closed thread issue, so thanks for leaving this one be Hank, I would prefer personal "time outs" and suspensions.
Big Kev, this board don't need more moderators, it needs all people to act civil. If you don't agree with someones opinion and want to cuss them out, send it to their email.

In short, on the topic at hand, I love most of autoworlds doings, the "I" wheels could stay, but would be nicer if we could purchase singles, and go back to a few white thunders as opposed to "they all come as rare cars". 
Ex: make the hummer, torino and broncos "case" white thunders, but make the ford gt, superbird and 55 chevy "dealer only" , or "I wheel" cars.


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## A/FX Nut (May 28, 2004)

I would have to agree with what Sethndaddy said about Mr. Lowe trying to make everyone happy. Unfortunately not everyone is. I don't think he could make everyone happy no matter what he did.

I buy the cars I like. I can't afford to collect. Just too much out there and more coming from Autoworld for me. They've had 3 or 4 releases in the last year if I'm right. Don't get me wrong, I like the frequency of the releases.

Mr. Lowe is probably going to try or do things in the future we do or don't like. I think with the IWheels he made it easier and less exspensive to get those cars without going through hoops and paying too much for them. 

As far as the red vs smoke windshields and rarer color cars now, Aurora did that in the 60's and 70's and I like it. History repeating itself. Slot cars were way more popular back then. You could go to major retailers or the local mom and pop stores and pick them up. Nobody had a clue what cars were rare. Most people were running them. Goshen, Indiana had 4 stores you could buy slot cars from. There was 0 for a while currently there is 1. And no major retailer is carrying single slot cars currently. Randy.


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## mrwillysgasser (Jan 3, 2002)

hankster said:


> The problem that we have here is both “beating the dead horse” and a perceived attempt to skirt the previous problems we have had on this subject. Also, the subject of the poll itself could be considered inflammatory. *That was the point in asking it to be removed what it turned into didnt matter. Civil or not later in the thread*
> 
> After some thought and feedback (see, I do consider your feedback) I am going to open this thread again. As long as the discussion remains civil and “non bashing” it will remain open. Pros and cons of any company is healthy and at the point where we only allow positive comments is the point where we become useless to our members*.As I said in the "We need mod thread" if something slot is bad post here for sure Pros and cons of any company is healthy but once you beat the dead horse for a wile burry it before it stinks the whole place up.*
> 
> I’ll be monitoring this thread to make sure we stay in the spirit of HobbyTalk.


*One more thing I do not work for TL or dan or any other slot co. I just like to see posts keep "in the spirit of HobbyTalk".*


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

A/FX Nut said:


> As far as the red vs smoke windshields and rarer color cars now, Aurora did that in the 60's and 70's and I like it. History repeating itself. Slot cars were way more popular back then. You could go to major retailers or the local mom and pop stores and pick them up. Nobody had a clue what cars were rare. Most people were running them. Goshen, Indiana had 4 stores you could buy slot cars from. There was 0 for a while currently there is 1. And no major retailer is carrying single slot cars currently. Randy.



Back in the 60s and 70s, no one had an idea what was out there. Now everything is common knowledge. It makes a difference. The internet, discussion groups and the ability to order online or access stores thousands of miles away has changed the marketplace.

If you carefully read though my previous posts, I am trying to point out that the marketing stategy of AW is eventually going to discourage vendors from carrying the product. Plus, and here's a very important point, Aurora did not sell direct. The only access to the product was via the mom and pop stores, or the retail outlets. Vendors for Aurora did not have to compete with Aurora.

If a customer knows that all the cars are more easily obtainable directly from the manufacturer than from a local vendor, they will go to the manufacturer. For a vendor to be able to carry a product, they have to know that they will not be price undercut by the manufacturer, and they have to know that the manufacturer does not have an advantage in access to the product. If, as a vendor, you know the manufacturer will sell for less than you can (which is not the case here), has acces to more desireable product than you, or allows special deals if you order direct from the website (like the procedure for the release 2 iWheels), then you are not operating on a level playing field.

Many guys bash the resellers and seem to consider them adversaries. Many believe they do not add "value" to the product. Buying the product from the manufacturer and making it available in multiple outlets, and taking it to local shows, is their contribution; just like any other vendor/reseller in any other industry. What "added value" does a Wal-Mart, Sears or any other store bring to a product? A standard is being placed on slot car vendors which is not applied to other resellers.

When you look back on the JL days and accusastions of "scalping", think about this. In order to get three WLs, a person had to buy a master case of 72 cars. Would you do that, no matter how much you could get for a WL? You still have to sell 69 other cars. It is no way to get rich. I would gladly pay extra to someone for the three WLs to save having to buy 69 other cars. 

If you think that the vendor/reseller network is not important to AW or this hobby, then all my arguments mean nothing. We would then need to buy all our slot car products direct from the manufacturers because the vendor network has disappeared. But if you believe that in order for this hobby to succeed, we need full time vendors able to make a living. And part time vendors need to make a profit.

If you are looking for product, do you call the manufacturer or your favorite vendor? What would you do if the vendors did not exist? Would that be good for the hobby?

I would really like to hear some counter arguments. Put yourself in the position of thinking about becoming a vendor for AW, or any company that markets a product the same way. Would you become a vendor? Would you accept and be comfortable with the way the product is packaged? How would you price the product if you are forced into buying product in equal or unknown quantities? How would you move both the desireable and undesireable product?

Thanks...Joe


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## Crimnick (May 28, 2006)

I'd end up with a garage full of slot cars...

I'm still looking for the downside...

/kidding


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## SplitPoster (May 16, 2006)

The marketing angle and what it leads to.... 

There is a highly effective strategy in place to sell a small group of people 48++ cars a year each. The high volume purchasers are securely in the fold.

Is there also a strategy to sell to people who might buy only 4 or 5 cars a year? Yes and no, the vast majority of this seems to be through the resale market. It would be interesting to know how many one or two car purchases are made through retail stores, dealers, or direct vs. ebay. Wonder how much advertising revenue is spent on each? Yes, your fees on ebay are dedicated advertising expenses. Not a publicly held company, I guess, or those internal numbers would be available.

Resellers can move the product for you. But, can they grow the brand, or are they just as likely to dump slower moving inventory and drag it down? The age old issue of counting on the agent, not on the company.....

In the short term, sales are sales, whether items are purchased in lots of one or 100.
If you're in it for the long haul, down the road would you rather depend on 100 potentially large purchasers to make your numbers, or would you like to have 25,000 to draw on? How many "outlets" - places to purchase cars from - is sufficient?


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## A/FX Nut (May 28, 2004)

Grandcheapskate said:


> Back in the 60s and 70s, no one had an idea what was out there. Now everything is common knowledge. It makes a difference. The internet, discussion groups and the ability to order online or access stores thousands of miles away has changed the marketplace.
> 
> If you carefully read though my previous posts, I am trying to point out that the marketing stategy of AW is eventually going to discourage vendors from carrying the product. Plus, and here's a very important point, Aurora did not sell direct. The only access to the product was via the mom and pop stores, or the retail outlets. Vendors for Aurora did not have to compete with Aurora.
> 
> ...


I've seen your point all along here Joe. Back when slot cars were king, it was a racer/children's hobby. Like you said, nobody knew what was out there. Sure some guys might've been collecting, but very few.

Now it's a collector/racer adult hobby. I've been looking at this from my racer viewpoint. Someone who just buys small parts of each release and takes them out of the package and puts the volts through them. 

The vendors have been working their tails off to get complete releases to those fortunate people that can buy them. I wanted to become a vendor but I've seen and heard from a couple of vendors their confusion and fustration over the current packaging, that nip my idea of being a vendor.

But with the added color of windows/low production of certain car colors it's kept the collectors in there buying.

If single slot cars were in the large discount stores like Wal-Mart, Target, and such. This thread wouldn't exsist. 

I hope it gets to a point where everyone is happy. I respect the vendors and buy from them at the shows when I can. I hope they all can make money so I can continue to see them at the shows. Randy.


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## SplitPoster (May 16, 2006)

_If single slot cars were in the large discount stores like Wal-Mart, Target, and such. This thread wouldn't exsist._ True.

To sell single slot cars in Wal Mart or anywhere else like that you'd pretty much have to sell a track set to run them on too. 

However, if sets were sold at Wal Mart (say at Christmas) with limited single cars, catalogs of current releases included, wonder what that would do for vendor business the rest of the year?


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## dlw (Aug 17, 1999)

Perhaps Tom was conducting an experiment on the 'limited chase car' among the regular issue cars. He sees that it is an unpopular concept, and R5 will revert to the old packaging procedures.

Just a thought.


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## JordanZ870 (Nov 25, 2004)

Tom can have his cars packaged any way he likes, yeah? It is a free country.
I am just as pleased to be able to get them. Being able to get a complete set in a case was really cool and a real time-saver for sure.

I think we all got used to the cars being sold that way.
If the current way of packaging these cars was the only way they were ever done, would anyone be complaining so much about it? 

Tom makes nice slot cars and offers them at a fair market price. I am greatful.

If it becomes easier to get complete sets from my seller, then I will go back to buying full cases that way. I like these cars and will continue to help build my favorite hobby with them, even if it is only 1, 2 or a few at a time.

just my buck and a quarter.....


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## A/FX Nut (May 28, 2004)

SplitPoster said:


> _
> 
> To sell single slot cars in Wal Mart or anywhere else like that you'd pretty much have to sell a track set to run them on too.
> 
> However, if sets were sold at Wal Mart (say at Christmas) with limited single cars, catalogs of current releases included, wonder what that would do for vendor business the rest of the year?_


_

I wish Wal-Mart and the other retailers sold single slots and sets year round. But there isn't enough money to be made for them. Kids today want Video Games, MP3 Players, Ipods and other high tech goodies.

I see men ranging in age from their 30's to 60's at slot car shows. All children there are with their parent or parents. Very few teenagers have an interest in slots but, with all the distractions they have will the stay in the hobby? Randy._


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## T-Jet Racer (Nov 16, 2006)

Here is my Theory, Autoworld is listening. They hear that their customers are not too excited about the Chase Program, so as any good business would do they are targeting their market with a new plan that seems to make the majority happy. I am glad they take the time to read the different bulliten boards and try to react in a positive fashion. Some companies would just say too bad deal with it. Autoworld has stepped up to the plate and is keeping in touch with the customer. There will also be a new blog on their site, I hope that this will be an effective way to contact them with wants and desires from the true slot car buyer. 

Thanks Mr. Lowe for hearing your customers and responding positivly!


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## TK Solver (Mar 18, 2004)

There are ways of getting the kids back into slots. I'm (slowly) working with a few college faculty members, trying to motivate them to create an applied physics course completely based on slot cars. Imagine taking Physics in high school or college and having all (even half) the labs involve experiments with slot cars. You couldn't wait to go back to class. Seems like it would work for big kids.

Ideally, I'd like to get one of the big toy companies to provide a grant to fund the faculty in developing the course materials. Seems like it would work well for all parties involved. THAT would be "slick".


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## SplitPoster (May 16, 2006)

_I see men ranging in age from their 30's to 60's at slot car shows. All children there are with their parent or parents. Very few teenagers have an interest in slots but, with all the distractions they have will the stay in the hobby? Randy._

Many of us didn't stay in the hobby, we got back into it after we grew up, quit acting like teenagers and started acting more like children again! 

I don't think you need to have a lot of competely dedicated teen hobbyists to make the hobby successful with a younger crowd - they have a short attention span anyway, some will be interested enough to maintain a set and keep some cars. 

Man, my son wouldn't be caught dead at a slot car show anyway - just like a 1:1 car show - I move too slow and talk to EVERYBODY - none of them his age and female either lol.


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## videojimmy (Jan 12, 2006)

well, after seeing AW's new website. I have to say I'm VERY impressed. 
They are listening


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## mrwillysgasser (Jan 3, 2002)

AUTO WORLD partners with Shopatron In an effort to increase support for "brick and mortar" retail hobby shops, AUTO WORLD has partnered with the high-profile Shopatron order fulfillment system.

The increasingly popular Shopatron company itself does not ship the orders of its manufacturer subscribers. Instead, the unique Shopatron system has been cleverly designed as a way for established retail hobby stores, stocking the manufacturer's product, to fill the orders coming in from the manufacturer's web site. It's a win-win situation for several reasons. First, the retailer gains an additional sales channel to profit from, alongside regular walk-in traffic. Second, as orders are often filled by the closest retailer to the customer, the customer receives their order faster. Third, with the retailer knowing there is a steady stream of additional orders optionally available for them to fill, they are more likely to stock more of the manufacturer's product.

AUTO WORLD's plan is to continue supporting the conventional distribution and retail model, while offering unique items directly to the consumer. The intent is to level the playing field on pricing and eliminate fly-by-night eBay dealers.

For more information on the Shopatron system, please visit the *Shopatron web site.* 




nuff said.


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## A/FX Nut (May 28, 2004)

SplitPoster said:


> _
> 
> Many of us didn't stay in the hobby, we got back into it after we grew up, quit acting like teenagers and started acting more like children again!
> 
> ...


_

I got out of the hobby a year or two after I got my Golden Gate A/FX Set. But when we were young you could by race sets and single cars anywhere and there was word of mouth spread by kids who had them.

Now it's the internet, vendors(online and at shows), and the retailers once a year at Christmas. 

We need new blood in this hobby. Ever seen a church with elderly members only. What happens when they all pass on? The church dies. Our hobby is like that now. 

Think about. If we don't keep attracting new blood, then Autoworld's, Life Like's, Tomy's, and any other business in this hobby will start to lose sales as we pass on or get out of the hobby. 

Then those business will close up and die. Even if there's old stock and people's collections out there. But because we didn't keep new blood flowing into the hobby, that stuff will be collecting dust of filling landfills. Randy._


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## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)

A/FX Nut said:


> I got out of the hobby a year or two after I got my Golden Gate A/FX Set. But when we were young you could by race sets and single cars anywhere and there was word of mouth spread by kids who had them.
> 
> Now it's the internet, vendors(online and at shows), and the retailers once a year at Christmas.
> 
> ...


OK That's a real buzz-kill.

True, but still. Dang.

'doba


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## Dragula (Jun 27, 2003)

They <Autoworld>already had a great couple of chassis to clone,then just make bodies that were never made.But they dropped the ball on the chassis bigtime,and a few of the bodies also.I see some improvements,so maybe they are gonna get things going in the right direction.I would love to see more old Mopars and Chevy bodies.DRAGjet


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## SplitPoster (May 16, 2006)

Hey AFXnut, I didn't say the hobby didn't need new blood, I said I don't think a bunch of teenagers are going to come on board and start another fad.

Hobbys have also been fads, some moreso than others. My comparitor is model railroading, and if you read their stuff, they were king and in the 60's slot cars about killed them. Somehow railroading has survived and thrived due to development - electronics, highly detailed models and scenery, even computer generated routing of traffic.

From what little I get to see of 1/32, it is a young adult crowd spending the money, amassing the collections and building the tracks, not the over 40 set.

If AW sells slot car sets aimed at a broad market, they may achieve it. If they sell NOSTALGIA t jets, X traction, etc (no matter how nice looking they are) they will get more nostalgic old guys than anything else. I mean, the Studebaker Hawk looks really great, as does the Suburban, but who is all that stuff aimed at? Are they going to sell a rice burner drift set, or a dukes of hazzard set? The optimal answer would be both.


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## A/FX Nut (May 28, 2004)

That's true SplitPoster. I forgot about the young guys we have racing with us from Topeka, Indiana. Larry the adult of the bunch brings his son and 3 other young folks with him.

We have our work cut out to keep new people coming into the hobby.

I'm a member of the Elkhart Model Railroad Club. HO Scale DCC locomotives are going anywhere from $100.00 to $800.00. Multiple locos running on the same track and operating independent of each other. And with sound. Horns, Whistles, engine, bells, steam, and etc.

Randy.


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## cagee (Apr 20, 2007)

SplitPoster said:


> Hey AFXnut, I didn't say the hobby didn't need new blood, I said I don't think a bunch of teenagers are going to come on board and start another fad.
> 
> Hobbys have also been fads, some moreso than others. My comparitor is model railroading, and if you read their stuff, they were king and in the 60's slot cars about killed them. Somehow railroading has survived and thrived due to development - electronics, highly detailed models and scenery, even computer generated routing of traffic.
> 
> ...


I'm 22 have only been in this hobby about a year , year and half tops my collection its not much but full of mainly tjets currently I have about 100 cars and still growing. The cars you said are aimed at the older crowd they were the ones I couldn't wait to get. The Suburban and Hawk now those cars were awesome! :thumbsup: 

But also like you said it is a much older crowd in this hobby. The guys I race with are all over 30 (so I stick out like a sore thumb). I've tried to get my friends into the hobby. They come over run some cars for an hour or 2 and have a blast running them cars, but thats as far as it goes.

I don't understand I LOVE IT but no one else really stays interested after they put the controller down.

Hobby shops close to me push the 1/32 but have only 90 ohm resistors for parma controllers available for HO. I have a few 1/32 cars to race with the local guys around here but my real love is HO.


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## micyou03 (Apr 8, 2003)

cagee said:


> But also like you said it is a much older crowd in this hobby. The guys I race with are all over 30 (so I stick out like a sore thumb).


I'm 43 and it seems I'm the young one when I'm around other slotters.


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## Slots-101 (Aug 21, 2007)

*Shopatron , another bad idea*



mrwillysgasser said:


> AUTO WORLD partners with Shopatron In an effort to increase support for "brick and mortar" retail hobby shops, AUTO WORLD has partnered with the high-profile Shopatron order fulfillment system.
> 
> The increasingly popular Shopatron company itself does not ship the orders of its manufacturer subscribers. Instead, the unique Shopatron system has been cleverly designed as a way for established retail hobby stores, stocking the manufacturer's product, to fill the orders coming in from the manufacturer's web site. It's a win-win situation for several reasons. First, the retailer gains an additional sales channel to profit from, alongside regular walk-in traffic. Second, as orders are often filled by the closest retailer to the customer, the customer receives their order faster. Third, with the retailer knowing there is a steady stream of additional orders optionally available for them to fill, they are more likely to stock more of the manufacturer's product.
> 
> ...


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## mrwillysgasser (Jan 3, 2002)

Slots-101 said:


> mrwillysgasser said:
> 
> 
> > AUTO WORLD partners with Shopatron In an effort to increase support for "brick and mortar" retail hobby shops, AUTO WORLD has partnered with the high-profile Shopatron order fulfillment system.
> ...


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## hankster (Jan 1, 1998)

I guess my question would be is why they don;t belong to Shopatron? Any retailer can and it is easy to sign up. I know if I was a retailer and I was worried aboput internet sales or wanted to expand the reach of store, I would join. Sounds like they don't know about it, just want to stick their head in sand and hope it goes away or are too lazy to go through the extra work.

Shopatron has been in use for a number of years and is used by a lot of RC manufactuers. It mainly helps the small manufactuer and the small retailer that does not have the staff, knowledge, money or time to have their own on-line store. It helps the customer in that they can buy a wide range of things from one place and not have to worry that one store carries all of the items they want to purchase.

If you are so worried about it I would suggest that you go to your local Hobby Shops and ask THEM why they do not use Shopatron.


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## Steve F (Apr 30, 2007)

hankster said:


> I guess my question would be is why they don;t belong to Shopatron? Any retailer can and it is easy to sign up. I know if I was a retailer and I was worried aboput internet sales or wanted to expand the reach of store, I would join. Sounds like they don't know about it, just want to stick their head in sand and hope it goes away or are too lazy to go through the extra work.
> 
> Shopatron has been in use for a number of years and is used by a lot of RC manufactuers. It mainly helps the small manufactuer and the small retailer that does not have the staff, knowledge, money or time to have their own on-line store. It helps the customer in that they can buy a wide range of things from one place and not have to worry that one store carries all of the items they want to purchase.
> 
> If you are so worried about it I would suggest that you go to your local Hobby Shops and ask THEM why they do not use Shopatron.


There's not to many Local hobby shops left.There are about 10 locally but non carry HO slotcars.They say its not worth the time space or monies to layout stocking product that you can't sell...The new big thing is these gas powered cars that do 65 MPH & costs run into the thousands...If there are no hobbyshops for shopatron to send the orders to I guess they bounce back to AW ..Again a win win for Aw & a Loose loose for all his distributors & dealers..Already when you go into the shop spot it directs you to them..Pretty Sharp..

Just my 2 cents
Steve


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## Xence (Oct 2, 2007)

Here's my thing concerning this topic. I'm 38 and I've had slot cars almost all my life. When I was 7 or so my dad brought me to the local store and bought me lionel's power passers which were returned about a week later because they were so bad. I don't remember this as I was only 7 (I think) when those were out. My father instead bought me a silver curve hugger set (tyco). Those were awesome and I held onto that set until the early 90's when I sold everything I had because I was going into the service and I needed the money. 

Now I'm back into it big time, I buy AW stuff because I know if I don't support these guys I'm going to be out of luck again. I have all of the white's save 2 because I just couldn't wrap my head around spending $180 or whatever it was for the white bronco's from release 1. I have around 400 cars and no kidding I'd say at least half are the AW stuff. There are some things I'm not real keen on concerning the way they are produced compared to the old AFX stuff. HOWEVER, they make a VERY nice product and as an overall I'm real happy with these cars. I wish I could get a job doing this but I would probably OD inside of a week. 

Now concerning the local hobby shop I know of only 1 that sells this stuff and he's always decent, fairly knowledgeable about the product, and he races the cars now and then he tells me. I have no idea if he's involved with this shopatron thing and I'm not real familiar with it but if it's going to keep my favorite hobby going then I'll be saying something to him next time about it.

Concerning new blood, outside of Cagee I've not heard of anyone younger than me or at least in my age bracket that was into this. Without new blood our passion will fade away like a warm summer breeze on an autumn day. Point being, we need to get others involved, I'm not sure how but we need to keep this rolling. The only way I really know how to keep this alive and make it thrive once again is to start either giving cars away or selling our kinda junky stuff for cheap so others can enjoy this hobby and let it march forward.

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers,
Xence


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## A/FX Nut (May 28, 2004)

Xence said:


> Concerning new blood, outside of Cagee I've not heard of anyone younger than me or at least in my age bracket that was into this. Without new blood our passion will fade away like a warm summer breeze on an autumn day. Point being, we need to get others involved, I'm not sure how but we need to keep this rolling. The only way I really know how to keep this alive and make it thrive once again is to start either giving cars away or selling our kinda junky stuff for cheap so others can enjoy this hobby and let it march forward.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.
> 
> ...


When I ran races at Maple City Hobbies Some of us gave one or two of our own cars away. I installed a Wizzard TYCO Silver electrical kit into a Super Stock with applied silicone tires and independent front tires for one of our teen racers. 

It's a challenge keeping younger guys in the hobby. They have school, after school activities, part time jobs, girls, maybe a driver's license, a car, and other hobbies.

Out of 8 younger racers we've had 4 have gone on to other things. Including the one I gave the Super Stock parts too. Giving cars and parts to the younger racers is like investing, even if they don't stay in the hobby it's still a good return because you make them happy and show you care. Randy.


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## Steve F (Apr 30, 2007)

A/FX Nut said:


> Out of 8 younger racers we've had 4 have gone on to other things. Including the one I gave the Super Stock parts too. Giving cars and parts to the younger racers is like investing, even if they don't stay in the hobby it's still a good return because you make them happy and show you care. Randy.


Randy sorry to say I think were in a loosing battle..I have been pushing these cars for about 10 year now..Have given 100% to it as everything I do..I'm loosing customer after customer with all this new AW stragegy ..What really sucks here is AW was the company that brought life back into it..Yes Model Motoring , Mev , RRR & a few others were giving it a go but Playing Mantis Tom Lowe Now AW was the guy that made it all happen starting with the pull backs..Whats killing it now are one of two things or maybe both..One Tom has gotten Greedy or Two he is surrounding himself with people giving very bad marketing advise.. The way it is now nobody but AW can make any money.. The distributors are undercutting each other trying to stay afloat..The dealers are praticlly giving this stuff away for cost..Its got to come to an end soon..Nobody but AW is making money.. See dealers used to buy tons of cases to get the whites..Sell them at a large profit to the real collector ( which most of us are not ) & then not be in such a rush to dump the rest.. They had time to let them sit on the shelf until they sold for retail..
Now stores can't afford to stock these without the whites..Distributors use to sell to Hobby Stores , now all they can sell to is dealers & I don't see that lasting much longer..I got into selling these cars for my love for slotting..Been slotting since I was 7 & my older Brother was 10 ..I'm 45 now & he is 48..He has 3 sons 22 , 16 , 13 & all they want are vidio computer games & girls..Last Christmas I put together a 40 foot 4 lane track that one side was a 40 ft straight & the other side zigzagged back all flat..A Really really cool track..Gave them an unlimited supply of cars , anything they wanted , I was feeling real good doing this. ( Had a few Beers that night ).Bottom line the kids played for maybe 2 days & that was it..After that it was my Brother , my Farther & me.... I really hate to say this but I feel like I'm swimming against the tide.. Its no longer as much fun as it once was.. It was nice to playing with a hobby you enjoyed & make a few bucks at the same time , plus give people enjoyment..All I hear now is complaining..No full sets , Not all window Colors , No whites.... It seems the fun part is over now..

Thats enough to chew on for now..
Peace out
Steve


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## JordanZ870 (Nov 25, 2004)

You can be my dad, Steve! 

I have brought 2 good buddies into the hobby and one of my two fine sons is as crazy about these cars as I am! (he will be 14) 3 for me, so far! 

I think the hobby will continue to grow and maintain itself. The people who are very attracted to it will see to that. People will always try it out, hey! Some will get hooked, some will not. I think that is ok because the ones that get hooked will be in it for the long haul and eventually bring more into the fold.

Tide in, tide out, tide in, tide out. The slot monsoon was very early on. Who knows, it may come again, yeah?!


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

Steve F said:


> I'm loosing customer after customer with all this new AW stragegy ..What really sucks here is AW was the company that brought life back into it..Yes Model Motoring , Mev , RRR & a few others were giving it a go but Playing Mantis Tom Lowe Now AW was the guy that made it all happen starting with the pull backs..Whats killing it now are one of two things or maybe both..One Tom has gotten Greedy or Two he is surrounding himself with people giving very bad marketing advise.. The way it is now nobody but AW can make any money.. The distributors are undercutting each other trying to stay afloat..The dealers are praticlly giving this stuff away for cost..Its got to come to an end soon..Nobody but AW is making money.. See dealers used to buy tons of cases to get the whites..Sell them at a large profit to the real collector ( which most of us are not ) & then not be in such a rush to dump the rest.. They had time to let them sit on the shelf until they sold for retail..
> Now stores can't afford to stock these without the whites..Distributors use to sell to Hobby Stores , now all they can sell to is dealers & I don't see that lasting much longer..I got into selling these cars for my love for slotting..
> 
> ... I really hate to say this but I feel like I'm swimming against the tide.. Its no longer as much fun as it once was.. It was nice to playing with a hobby you enjoyed & make a few bucks at the same time , plus give people enjoyment..All I hear now is complaining..No full sets , Not all window Colors , No whites.... It seems the fun part is over now..
> ...


Steve,
As a vendor, you have touched on one of the major points I have made concerning the AW marketing stategy. The marketing stategy will eventually cause the loss of the vendor network because vendors will not be able to continue carrying the product under current circumstances. I am really surprised they have been able to last this long. I'm sure your problem with AW has been the fact that either you need to buy all cars in equal quantities (when there was complete set packaging) or in random cases (where you did not know the contents). If you could have ordered each car type based on demand, I'll bet you would have been in a much better position.

It is the case packaging to the reseller that has caused some cars to go for high prices, while others hit the discount bin. When you get all cars in equal (or unknown) quantities, you have to make your money on the hot sellers and find a way to rid yourself of the slow sellers. That is a simple fact. There is no other way to survive.

As you say, it is a shame because AW did (does?) have the potential for breathing some long term life into the hobby. However, I do believe a vibrant, healthy vendor network is essential for anyone to succeed. And I have seen that vendor network get smaller as time goes on. The AW cars are just not generating revenue for vendors because the price cannot be maintained. This is not the vendors' fault; the root cause has always been the way the product comes packaged to the vendor going back to the JL days.

It seems there was a boom around the late 1990s - early 2000s when a lot of us (myself included) rediscovered the hobby because of the internet. Many probably started rebuilding their inventory, so there were a lot of sales during that time. However, there does come a time where everyone (except collectors) will get to the point where they have more than enough runners and the sales slow down.

This is one reason I believe collectors are so important - they will continue to buy as long as there is new product available. Unless you get new blood into the hobby to buy the newest cars and build their inventories, I do not think you can rely on sales to guys who only "buy what I like" - maybe 3-4 cars per release. Even at that, how long will non-collectors continue buying new cars every release? At what point do you have too many cars to keep running well? I know I do.

AW seems to have lost many collectors for a variety of reasons, probably starting with the release 1 WL issue. A good indication is that some of the limited edition cars are not selling out. Remember how quickly the release 2 XT iWheels sold out? After that, it doesn't seem that anything has sold out. If only 500 were made, and they do not sell, that is a good indication that collectors are just not interested. That cannot be good.

There are things AW could do. At the top of that list would be selling only the bodies. The bodies seem to get mostly positive reviews and they would probably do very well. Giving vendors the option to order only the cars they want would be another.

I can see from slot car shows I attend that the pace of buying has slowed down. This can be disheartening to those of us who set up at shows and hope to at least make enough to cover our expenses. But there is still the enjoyment of attending the show and being with others who have the same love of the hobby. That makes it worthwhile - even if I do have to drive to Long Island.

Joe


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## A/FX Nut (May 28, 2004)

Steve F said:


> Randy sorry to say I think were in a loosing battle..I have been pushing these cars for about 10 year now..Have given 100% to it as everything I do..I'm loosing customer after customer with all this new AW stragegy ..What really sucks here is AW was the company that brought life back into it..Yes Model Motoring , Mev , RRR & a few others were giving it a go but Playing Mantis Tom Lowe Now AW was the guy that made it all happen starting with the pull backs..Whats killing it now are one of two things or maybe both..One Tom has gotten Greedy or Two he is surrounding himself with people giving very bad marketing advise.. The way it is now nobody but AW can make any money.. The distributors are undercutting each other trying to stay afloat..The dealers are praticlly giving this stuff away for cost..Its got to come to an end soon..Nobody but AW is making money.. See dealers used to buy tons of cases to get the whites..Sell them at a large profit to the real collector ( which most of us are not ) & then not be in such a rush to dump the rest.. They had time to let them sit on the shelf until they sold for retail..
> Now stores can't afford to stock these without the whites..Distributors use to sell to Hobby Stores , now all they can sell to is dealers & I don't see that lasting much longer..I got into selling these cars for my love for slotting..Been slotting since I was 7 & my older Brother was 10 ..I'm 45 now & he is 48..He has 3 sons 22 , 16 , 13 & all they want are vidio computer games & girls..Last Christmas I put together a 40 foot 4 lane track that one side was a 40 ft straight & the other side zigzagged back all flat..A Really really cool track..Gave them an unlimited supply of cars , anything they wanted , I was feeling real good doing this. ( Had a few Beers that night ).Bottom line the kids played for maybe 2 days & that was it..After that it was my Brother , my Farther & me.... I really hate to say this but I feel like I'm swimming against the tide.. Its no longer as much fun as it once was.. It was nice to playing with a hobby you enjoyed & make a few bucks at the same time , plus give people enjoyment..All I hear now is complaining..No full sets , Not all window Colors , No whites.... It seems the fun part is over now..
> 
> Thats enough to chew on for now..
> ...


I think the hobby has plenty of time to keep new people coming into it to keep it going. Like Joez870 said, you get some into it and some quit while others get hooked.

And Steve, if you do adopt Joez870, I'll pay for the haircut.  :lol: Randy.


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## Steve F (Apr 30, 2007)

A/FX Nut said:


> And Steve, if you do adopt Joez870, I'll pay for the haircut.  :lol: Randy.


Thats it I'll get a hair cut & a new Job..


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## SplitPoster (May 16, 2006)

You guys have posted really thoughtful and enjoyable stuff on this thread. Have to throw in my .02 every now and then....  

I don't think kids in general are any less competitive than they were - if anything they are more competitive. They don't have to make up rules and points as every video game comes in one player or two player, levels, high score, etc. 

You want to get more of a younger crowd interested in slots - you sell sets with lap timing included, to the thousandth of course, with memory, multiple track configuration options, high quality chassis with a variety of tunability options. Aurora sold a bunch of hop up kits. If digital fits in a ZipZap, it would fit in 1/64, but maybe it doesn't need to be there yet. I mean, a drag race set up can get old pretty quick - but maybe not if reaction time and E/ T flash up at the end of each run. A piece of cake electronically, red light too. Road course Le Mans start, go at the drop of the green - cuts power to chip/lane for one second if you jump it - too cool. 

I went in a new hobby shop last week that had slot stuff, including AW tjets and Xtrac, and some racemasters too. But what really caught my eye were the Carrera and SCX endurance race sets. Man, the detail in the Porsche GT3R's..... but I resisted. You look at 1/32 on the shelf from 1970 vs now, lots of change. Just in appearence, forget 24K RPM motors and digital. You look at AW now vs t jet then, hmm. 

There is room for heritage, nostalgia, whatever you want to call it. How much is debatable. And modelling/customizing will be there too. But mass market HO has been caught in a 25+ year time capsule.

Yes, distribution and stocking are part of marketing strategy, as are new releases, and their timing and availability. So is the introduction of new features, options, and technology.


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

If you have never read the following thread, you might find it interesting as it evolved into a discussion on marketing the hobby to increase its appeal:

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=192633

It may just be that the slot car hobby is always going to have a "hole" in it in terms of the ages of the participants. Real young kids may get into it, they'll leave when they get to their late teens, and then return when they settle down (or their bodies start to break down) in their late thirties, early fourties.
How many of us followed that pattern?

Joe


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