# LiPo/Brushless testing this Wed night



## McLin (Dec 5, 2001)

For anyone in the Gordonsville, VA area; I will at Thunder Road again this Wednesday night testing the new LiPo/Brushless class for ARCOR. Everyone is invited to come up and see what the new class will be and "look" like.


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## Ralf (Oct 19, 2001)

I await your next report with much anticipation! As far as I am concerned the brushless motors are the best thing to hit RC since the ESC! I started back racing because of brushless and am currently getting back in with a 13.5 but would love something closer to stock motor speeds. Remember, I am one of the old farts! Looking forward to your report. Thanks for doing this testing and thanks to NOVAK for supplying the new motors, will be buying one when you guys finish testing and they start selling them ! Ralf


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## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

Lin

I'm guessing under load that motor should be close to 16,000 - 16,200 rpm with 8.2 volts... hmmm I don't know the track size but I'm going to guess 2.45 rollout...

HOW CLOSE DID I GET? LOLOLOL


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## McLin (Dec 5, 2001)

Actually, I ended up with about a 3.10 and may could have gone a bit higher but this was starting to get some heat in the motor and the Lap times were getting closer. I could turn some 4.2's up front, a lot of 4.3's and ended in 4.4's. A better "wheel" could have truned more 2's and 3's. (A good brushed Stock will start in the 4.2's for a lap or two, drop the 4.3's and 4's and end up in the 5's and maybe 6's.)

This put the total laps over the track record. I would certainly think that once we get more people racing this class, another lap, maybe two, will be done. 

Personally, I think this is right where this class should be, not 19 turn speeds but a tad faster than brushed stock. If it is not any better than Stock then why would anyone want to try it?

I am gong to email Charlie at Novak to be sure that I understand his previous emails to J.B. but if I am on the same page, he can wrap a different motor with more winds to slow it down but that will just build more torque into it and allow the racers to load it up with more gear and end up at the same speeds. These motors take so much gear now, that if we let Novak build one that will take more, we will probably run out of available gears before we get to the right one. (we have to keep in mind paved racing on big tracks)

I forgot to get the exact track length last night but I ended up with a 51/112 with 2.12 tires. I let the tires stay small to see how far I could go with the gear. Dropping to a 110 spur and running 2.17 or so tires would bring the gear choice back into an exceptable range for most carpet tracks. Paved racing on the big tracks is going to be another thing altogether though. We will just have to see how that works out. The tires will be bigger so that will help a lot.

All in all it was a good test and I think Charlie hit it just right on the motor and it was a 17.5 Sintered motor.


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## Ralf (Oct 19, 2001)

Thanks to you and NOVAK for all this testing, it will be great to have a little slower motor to bring new people in on, and for us older folk too. Thanks Again, keep up posted. Also looking forward to a more dtailer article on your web site.... Ralf


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## brian0525 (Jan 17, 2005)

Based on Mclin's feedback and Swtour's and the fact that neither pushed the motor to it's limit, I would think this motor battery combo will be faster than 13.5/4cell and that is pretty fast. I think that SWTOUR was correct when he said a 20.5 or so would be closer to stock speed if that is what you were looking for?


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## ta_man (Apr 10, 2005)

McLin said:


> I am gong to email Charlie at Novak to be sure that I understand his previous emails to J.B. but if I am on the same page, he can wrap a different motor with more winds to slow it down but that will just build more torque into it and allow the racers to load it up with more gear and end up at the same speeds. These motors take so much gear now, that if we let Novak build one that will take more, we will probably run out of available gears before we get to the right one. (we have to keep in mind paved racing on big tracks)


The Novak brushless motors I have seen have had the space for the wire pretty much full (what would be a "high circular mil" armature for a brushed motor). I wonder if it would be possible to just use thinner wire and the same number of turns. The thinner wire would have more resistance, reducing the current the motor can draw, thus reducing torque. Can anyone ask Charlie about that approach?


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## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

Lin,

After I Posted I went and looked up the track and saw it was carpet...

What you said about torque etc, I believe to be one of the reasons ALL the B/L motors have Faster Capability than what their supposed equals have.

...this is why, IMHO guys will be faster, and destroy MOTORS if it means WIN~

Good Test LIN - If we don't see something new from Charlie/Novak by tomorrow, we'll do another test w/ the 17.5 at the METRO R/C SPEEDWAY Saturday (weather permitting)


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## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

TAMan said:


> The Novak brushless motors I have seen have had the space for the wire pretty much full (what would be a "high circular mil" armature for a brushed motor). I wonder if it would be possible to just use thinner wire and the same number of turns. The thinner wire would have more resistance, reducing the current the motor can draw, thus reducing torque. Can anyone ask Charlie about that approach?


From what I'm being told about a brushless motor...that is exactly what one of the fears is... (Guys actually winding their own...since balancing ISN'T an issue) and that may be hard to detect on a LCR meter...

I haven't ripped one of these apart yet...so I haven't looked at construction.


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## ta_man (Apr 10, 2005)

swtour said:


> From what I'm being told about a brushless motor...that is exactly what one of the fears is... (Guys actually winding their own...since balancing ISN'T an issue) and that may be hard to detect on a LCR meter...
> 
> I haven't ripped one of these apart yet...so I haven't looked at construction.


So then the idea is that if the factory uses the biggest wire possible, there can be no advantage (that cannot be detected with an LCR meter) to rewinding them?


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## LARCGuy (Apr 18, 2004)

swtour said:


> Good Test LIN - If we don't see something new from Charlie/Novak by tomorrow, we'll do another test w/ the 17.5 at the METRO R/C SPEEDWAY Saturday (weather permitting)


Have I been rotated out of the Test Pilot Program or do I get another shot at it?


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## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

...don't know if you'll see this or not Scot, I've got another driver going to test the 17.5 at METRO (I was hoping to see something new intime...but as of 5:30...it doesn't look like it...) 

I'm more than happy to have you as a test pilot anytime...


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## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

Todays 17.5 run w/ the 3200 Lipo - INSANE

We held the 3rd event of the 07 SWTour Series today at the newly reopened METRO R/C SPEEDWAY in Bakersfield CA. This 280 ft. HIGH Banked Concrete Tri-Oval is the only CAP tire short track in CALIF.

Test Pilot for todays run was JOSH SMITH - from Team KGB Racing.

Josh was put in the Stock Class for the first round of qualifying - although the motor looked really strong in the early practice runs.

In this first heat, with a calculation for gear ratio based on a number I created for this motor based on the known rollout for the 4300 times and gear ratio, Josh came out of the box with the following results.

56/5:02.54 Josh Smith
51/5:01.33 Tim Twyman
51/5:03.15 Dane Hopkins.

The 51 lap run of Tim Twyman was the actual stock TQ after the first run, and the 17.5 LIPO had it 5 laps down on it's maiden run.

Compare lap times (First 10 laps)

17.5 / STOCK
5.15 - 6.01
5.28 - 5.92
5.14 - 5.81
5.08 - 5.69
5.24 - 5.70
5.20 - 5.84
5.36 - 5.80
5.30 - 5.82
5.22 - 5.70
5.18 - 5.71

Last 5 laps

5.47 - 5.91
5.45 - 6.19
5.36 - 5.94
5.30 - 5.79
5.39 - 6.23

So it was obvious that the 17.5/LIPO was TOO HOT for Stock...once again. So we moved JOSH to the 4300 class in the same round of qualifying...

Josh simply recharged the LIPO pack and had the car ready for the 4300 heat...which he won with his 58/5.03:25 to John Miles 57/5:03.00. After the first round Josh with his 17.5/Lipo was faster than the 4300 class TQ - Scot Petitclerc (Our last test pilot) which ran a 58/5:05.26

Here are some sample lap times between Josh and Scot.

First 10 laps of their 1st runs.

17.5/4300
5.13 - 5.27
5.13 - 5.19
5.14 - 5.36
5.06 - 5.12
5.07 - 5.15
5.11 - 4.96
5.14 - 5.05
5.25 - 5.33
5.08 - 5.12
5.07 - 5.10

And the last 5 laps

5.33 - 5.10
5.39 - 5.20
5.35 - 5.15
5.27 - 5.16
5.34 - 5.60 

In the second round, Josh and the test motor picked up to a 58/5:02.87, but smokin Gary Hamilton stepped up the 4300 TQ time running a 60/5:01.44. Hamilton spent most of the race running high 4.8's and low 4.9's, while Smith was able to run a few 4.9's but spent most of his time in the 5.0 - 5.1 range.

The third round times almost mirrored round two, Hamilton stepped the TQ to a 61 lap run going 61/5:03.

Josh would qualify 4th in the 12 car field while Hamilton took the TQ spot. 

In the main Josh pulled the tallest gear of the day, his times dropped off from 5.0's in the early runs to a consistant 5.2 from Lap 2 to the final lap on 57 with a handful of high 5.1's in the mix.

Hamiltons car also dropped a little speed in the main running mostly 4.9's and 5.0's with a 8 car field.

Smith's steady hand and collision avoidance ability let him beat Hamilton who got collected in a crash on lap 9. The hard charging Hamilton was able to pull of a 2nd place finish just 2 seconds behing Smith.

NOTE: Gary Hamilton pretty much OWNS the METRO track in Bakersfield. He's been the dominant MODIFIED driver and set the bar pretty high for the 4300/10.5 class as well. He spend a lot of time refining his setup and gearing for the 4300. Smith came in Saturday morning - I handed him the motor and told him where I wanted him to start the gearing, which is where it stayed most of the day. Smiths car seemed to have a slight push through the corners and I feel if we could have resolved that we would have seen his times equal those of Hamiltons. (Maybe we'll get Hamilton to do the next TEST w/ this motor) Josh also mentioned the balance of the car with the lighter lipo never felt quite right...and since the lipo is about 2/3rds the weight of a 4 cell pack we may have simply needed to add a couple oz's of lead weight to the LH side.


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## Ralf (Oct 19, 2001)

Long story, short, it is still faster than a stock motor? Ralf


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## McLin (Dec 5, 2001)

Only by 7 LAPS! LOL


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## gezer2u (Sep 25, 2001)

The motor was faster then stock by a long shot. But, it seems that it is the perfect motor/ battery to replace the 4300/ 4 cell! It didn't have an advantage over the other 4300's. Maybe even a very,very slight disadvantage. Could it have gone faster, yes if the setup was a little better. Which is what we expect in the 4300/ 4cell class.
The motor and battery performed flawlessly! We used a charger from FMA direct. Very simply but effective. We ran the battery and took it off the track and put it right on the charger. then repeat... again and again. The Orion 3200 fit in the car perfectly and didn't move a bit. Also, not having to solder your battery in and out was too cool. At the end of the day, not having to worry if our NiMh batteries would too late, would the race director take too long a break and cause our pack to peak too early, not having to dicharger and tray them.... We would just as soon quit if we had to run the _old school_ NiMh.

To be honest, there was some apprehension when we charged the battery for the first couple of times. but, after that it was no big deal. Practice good safety practices just like you do when you charge any battery and there won't be a mishap. I think that this is the way to go for the furture. I also think there will be some growing pains. But in the long run it will be better and help to bring back the fun. I beleive that even if you are completely against Lipo's and try it for just one raceday, you will not want to go back.


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## McLin (Dec 5, 2001)

gezer2u, well put and you are soooooo right!


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## BIGKAHUNA (Nov 27, 2006)

we need a motor that will be close to 27 stock 4 cell motors. with 3200 li-po batteries and be able to run a complete race with out charging the battery. i have tested a stock 27 motor with li-po and the li-pos last for 30 min and have the same voltage.
i want this so bad. i am so tired of watching batteries charge for 5 hours and racing 12 min. i fact i kinda quit racing because ni-mh is so expensive and time consuming. no fun at all and the ones that win are the guys that get the special high voltage packs. just need a motor that runs with li-po and not be to fast for smaller tracks. some one said a 20 .5 brushless. i hope it comes out soon.


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## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

I was hoping we'd see a NEW test motor last weekend...or at least this weekend, but I haven't seen it yet. (Heading to PHOENIX this afternoon for the RCSports Mania's PAN CAR SHOOT OUT) and this would have been another great location for a test..and we'll be with the FLAGSTAFF GUYS who basically got this LIPO ball rolling~


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## local nc driver (Mar 12, 2007)

*looking for an 8000 Lipo*

hey guys...I am looking for a good used lipo pack of 8000 milliiamps.my phone # is 704-323-0234 its my old cell so it will be on for around two more weeks.


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## Ralf (Oct 19, 2001)

Was hoping for some actual information....suckerd by an ad. HAVE YOU TRIED swap n' sell? Ralf


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## local nc driver (Mar 12, 2007)

the 13.5 novak brushless motors are as close to stock as you can get.Just remember guys...I fried two lipo's and called around to diferent manufacturers and the info i get is do not and I mean"do not" leave your battery on charge and walk off....check them every five minutes to see if they are getting hot or starting to swell up.I charge on a 109 astroflite charger and use an astroflite balencer which is recommended by my sponsor.the 3800 7.4 battery from "APOGEE"seems to be perfect for stock class racing as it is about the same size as a 6 cell pack.more testing to come...
Compliments of (BiG D)


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## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

Local NC Racer said:


> the 13.5 novak brushless motors are as close to stock as you can get


Well 19t speeds AIN'T close enough...and I don't plan to quit testing until I find a closer solution.

I was hoping to do testing on carpet w/ the 17.5 this weekend, but it didn't work out...but this carpet track held their first 13.5 race...and they ran a full 2 laps faster then the normal STOCK TQ (Who picked up a couple laps over his previous best run) 

I fully expect the 13.5 class to pick up at least another 3-4 laps on their run next month.

13.5 ran 78, 10.5 ran 85 (Both are 5 minute times) Fastest Stock guy ran 76


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## local nc driver (Mar 12, 2007)

sounds fast...I am testing offrad brushless now.as well as running it with lipo packs to see the difference in run times


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## local nc driver (Mar 12, 2007)

*Lipo...*

I Was Advertising For A Used Lipo.....got One.thx To Alland Good Racing To All......


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## Ralf (Oct 19, 2001)

NOT NICE to hijack a thread.....sorry you found one here Ralf


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