# runs 2 minutes dies, starts with starting fluid.



## brokenknee (Dec 22, 2008)

A friend of mine has a twenty year old John Deere riding mower he uses for blowing snow in the winter. He had trouble starting it this fall, so I drained the fuel, took the bowl off the carb and drained that. Replaced with fresh fuel. It then seamed to start fine. 

Now in the colder weather (+10 to -20 lovely Hoffman, MN weather) he says it will start, run for about two minutes then die. He then needs to use starting fluid to get it running. He has MS so any additional work he has to do is a real chore.

When I checked the spark this fall, it appeared to be a nice blue spark. The spark plug itself looked like it could be replaced but I thought he could get one more season out of it.

Being it dies after it is already running would this be a carburetor/fuel issue? He said that he replaced the fuel pump on it about 15 years ago. I didn't even know they had a fuel pump. If so, could this be getting weak?


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## Lawnmowertech (Nov 12, 2008)

very possible could be it also can be climate related as well the colder it gets if that engine was never runned under certain temps before could have something to do with it is it colder than years before ? that is something to look at its just like altitude makes them runn funny too 

well its time for me to get some breaksfast i am starving marvin today 


let me know if i can be soime more help on the advice maybe some others can help trouble shoot the system with you being our eyes for us 


its hard troubleshooting something if us techs are not there looking at the machine 

but with you giving us key points we can try to diagnose the problem for you

it can be the fuel pump if you notice how things as the weather changes gets cold you know how hard it is to keep a car running in the cold air ? 

a lawnmower is the same way and the colder it gets it like freezes up all the lines etc. how does it run in Summer months this past year ? 

that is something we need to look at also 

calvin


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## brokenknee (Dec 22, 2008)

He has another mower for cutting the lawn, so he only uses this for blowing snow in the winter. He said it has always been a little cold blooded since new, but did not normally kill once it started. He has had this machince since it was new (about 20 years) so it has seen the colder temps before.

How would one go about checking the fuel pump? Can it be checked with a fuel pressure gauge that you would use on a care?


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## Lawnmowertech (Nov 12, 2008)

yea any type of fuel pressure gauge should work what you trying to do is see if the fuel pump is pumping 

could be pumping too little and not enough


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## brokenknee (Dec 22, 2008)

Do you know what the pressure should be?


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## Lawnmowertech (Nov 12, 2008)

brokenknee said:


> Do you know what the pressure should be?


nope not right off what model engine is it ?


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## brokenknee (Dec 22, 2008)

It will try to stop by my friends house and get the model # tomorrow.


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## Rentahusband (Aug 25, 2008)

Yeah MN weather is Great. Has the carb ever been cleaned.
Dean


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## Lawnmowertech (Nov 12, 2008)

i got cousins in the twin cities suburbs


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## brokenknee (Dec 22, 2008)

No, the carb has never been cleaned. I did not get over to his house, but talked to him today. He said he stopped by the local John Deere dealer were he purchased the machine. They let him talk to one of the mechanics and they said it sounded to them like the fuel pump. He ordered one ($50.00) and it should be in tomorrow. 

So it sounds like I will be driving him to Alexandria tomorrow to pick it up. I will try to remember to ask what the fuel pressure should be. I am not sure they would know off hand as my friend asked how they would know if it was bad and he stated just take off the hose at the carb and crank it over. He then held his fingers apart and said it should shoot out about this far. (3" is about how far he had his fingers apart) I think I will at least do that test before I install the new one. Hopefully they will know the pressure and I will be able to test it that way. I hate wasting money, even if it isn't mine.

We have 2 to 6 inches of snow coming into night (depending on who you listen to), hopefully the roads won't be to bad. If they are we may have to wait a day and hopefully it runs for another day to clear the snow we get. If not I can always bring my tractor over and clear his drive for him.


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## Rpeters123 (Oct 19, 2005)

*Easy check for good pump*

The pump only has to refill the float bowl. So if you get gas each time you open the bowl then the pump is AOK. Some times you can check by taking the fuel line off the carb and just turning the engine over looking for a small flow of gas with no real preasure. If you have any dirt in carb or water it will die. Take a hair dryer no open flames and heat the bowl and carb plus fuel lines if no gas in bowl so it is warmed above 40 degrees may start then - good luck. I expect if you drop the bowl and take carb cleaner can plastic wand and blow all passages and bowl nut clean runs aok.


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## brokenknee (Dec 22, 2008)

When it wouldn't start this fall, (bad gas) I did take the bowl off to drain the fuel out of it. Also drained the tank.

He said it has always started after I put in fresh fuel, it just dies after he lets it run for about 2 minutes. He is not putting it under any load at this time. I also ask him if he tried "playing" with the choke. He said he did and it does not make any difference. It still died. After a couple of shots of starting fluid it will start again, then run until he shuts it down.

I will most likely check the fuel pump first since he already has it ordered. I am hoping I do not have to take the carb off. It doesn't look like a big job, but there is no heat in his garage. Also if I screw it up (the carb) I will have to clear his driveway until I get it fixed. Grass can wait a couple of days to be cut, snow needs to be moved now.

I would like to thank everyone for the responses and I will keep you posted of the outcome.


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## pyro_maniac69 (Aug 12, 2007)

definatly something carb related, I wonder if something might be freezing up inside the carb with the wind from the flywheel blowing by it..........that could be it as well, its possible that there is water in the carb, and maybe with it being so cold and the extra air from the flywheel, it may be freezing the water in the float bowl of the carb........

there are a lot of possibilities on a engine being used in the cold, when is wasn't set up for colder weather


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## Rentahusband (Aug 25, 2008)

brokenknee said:


> We have 2 to 6 inches of snow coming into night (depending on who you listen to), hopefully the roads won't be to bad. If they are we may have to wait a day and hopefully it runs for another day to clear the snow we get. If not I can always bring my tractor over and clear his drive for him.


1:40am, it is snowing big time right now. Know what I will be doing the next couple of days.
Dean


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## brokenknee (Dec 22, 2008)

pyro_maniac69 said:


> definatly something carb related, I wonder if something might be freezing up inside the carb with the wind from the flywheel blowing by it..........that could be it as well, its possible that there is water in the carb, and maybe with it being so cold and the extra air from the flywheel, it may be freezing the water in the float bowl of the carb........
> 
> there are a lot of possibilities on a engine being used in the cold, when is wasn't set up for colder weather



I don't think there is any water in the carb, when I drained the fuel in the tank this fall I also dropped the carb bowl and drained that. I should have taken the carb off and went through it then. I will take a look at the fuel pump and if that is not the problem I will have to pull the carb and go through that.

I don't think I will be going to town today, As Rentahusband stated it is snowing big time right now. I checked the national weather forecast and they now say we can expect 6 to 10. I would say we already have about 3" of the fresh white stuff and still coming down.


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## pyro_maniac69 (Aug 12, 2007)

just because you cleaned it in the fall and didn't find any water, doesn't mean that there isn't water in it now

you can get water in your gas as soon as you fill up your car or gas can


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## Rentahusband (Aug 25, 2008)

I am wondering if it might be due to the air cleaner. Walk behind blowers do not use a filter as the snow will clog the filter. Try running the unit without the filter, this will not hurt anything. Also make sure the gas cap is venting properly, may be frozen.
Dean


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## paulr44 (Oct 14, 2008)

I didn't see an answer to your question about pump volume, but we had a standard working on cars years ago of a quart a minute. I'm sure a pint a minute would be fine for any engine in this business.
Impulse pumps usually produce 1 to 3 PSI, while mechanical about 5 to 10.
Has anyone asked if you can keep it running (when it starts to die) on ether or carb. cleaner spray?
If you can, you know it's not spark-related.
Paul


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## dj722000 (Oct 29, 2008)

I have no idea what tractor this is, but here is a shot in the dark. Has anyone put a inline fuel filter in the fuel line that doesnt belong there?? These are notorius for making an engine run bad. I have a john deere 316 which use to have an inline fuel filter. Ran horrible, whole bunch of weird stuff when that was in there. Sometimes it would vapor lock the fuel pump, sometimes it would run then die, sputter at full throttle and not at idle, and sometimes it would run for an hour then just quit. Took it out, runs fine....Also check to make sure the filter in the tank is there and clean. Make sure there isnt any holes in the fuel line from tank to fuel pump which can cause a vapor lock and only run the engine until carb is empty. The starting fluid only allows the engine to run breifly, possibly enough for the vapor lock to disappear and allow the gas to flow in the fuel pump again and allows it to keep it running. Over time when engine is off, gas will flow up to the pump and sit until ready to start, then run until gone and from running previously, the carb is already full. So it may run a little bit before dying. Just an idea.


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## brokenknee (Dec 22, 2008)

I will be going over there later today. I spent most of yesterday clearing snow. Fortunately for him/me a neighbor came over and cleared his drive so that saved me a trip. The weather is much warmer today 17* compared to yesterday -10, so it will be easier to work on. 

I will recheck the fuel for water and the air cleaner. He also picked up a new plug and fuel filter which I will replace. The fuel filter he picked up is the in line type. I do not know if it currently has one, I was going to put it in if not. Would this be ill advised? I will check for a fuel filter in the tank, would I be able to temporary remove this to see if it were the problem?

Thanks for all the replies, and Happy New Year, will keep you posted.


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## dj722000 (Oct 29, 2008)

Personally I would not put in a inline fuel filter, if its not the problem, can cause other weird problems. As far as the tank one goes, you have to remove it to get a good look at it. "DO NOT" remove this to see if it is the problem, if there is any thing in the tank or you dont put it back in, you can be in a worse predicament then you are now. On some of these tractors, you can pull the line off and the screen is right there, others you remove the line take the fitting out and the screen is there. If there is a lot of crud around the screen then you found your problem. If not move on. Check your fuel line, take out an inline fuel filters and go from there......Unfortunately what ever kind of tractor you have, maybe a little difficult trying to remove tank. But if you had problems before it got cold, (You said fall, still moderate temperatures) then I dont believe freezing inside the carb or cold weather is your problem. You can also crack the gas cap loose and run it to see if it is the gas cap. Might even be some debri in the float needle seat. Use compressed air to blow to cure that. I'm just throwing ideas out what it could be, not what it is. It could be any one of these and something really simple. LOL Good luck.


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## dj722000 (Oct 29, 2008)

Sorry, forgot this one, take the fuel line off where it goes to the IN side of the fuel pump. Blow in it, if you hear it back up in the tank then dont worry to much about the tank filter. Might save you from taking the tank out. Also while its off, take another short hose put it on the IN side of fuel pump and blow in it. Not hard, but if anything in the fuel pump you might get it to pass. Might wanna take the bowl off to see if gas passes through the needle and seat cause float will hang down when you do this.


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## brokenknee (Dec 22, 2008)

Well finally got back over there to look at it. It is a John Deere 265 with a kawasaki 17 hp #s on the engine shroud FL540V C500 AND EIN FL54OV1601433 

I put on a brand new fuel pump, now the thing will not run at all. It use to run for a couple of minutes before dieing. I thought maybe I got a bad pump so I reinstalled the old fuel pump, now it will not even run with the old pump. 

I think it may be a priming issue since the old pump did pump some before I pulled it off, neither pump will pump at all. It does have an in line fuel filter installed, I ask my friend if he had the in line filter installed or it came with the machine, he claims it came that way and he bought it new. 

When I changed the in line fuel filter there was good gas flow from the tank.

Here is a picture of the fuel pump and in line filter.








I did try holding my thumb over the gold screen to see if it would help prime the pump but no luck.

Right now I am at a loss for what to check. He is talking about bringing it in as we have had a lot of snow lately and he can't always rely on the kindness of neighbors and friends.


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## brokenknee (Dec 22, 2008)

Just had another thought, dangerous I know. 

Would I be able to use a hand held vacuum pump connected to the outlet of the fuel pump to try to pull the fuel through the pump to prime it? Or would that damage the pump? 

I think I should also recheck the fuel line coming from the tank to the pump. I was thinking it was running OK, but on second thought maybe it should have been running a little better. I will take his air compressor and blow back through the line. Is there anything in the tank I should be concerned about?

This darn thing is keeping me up at night, I normally am sleeping by nine as I have to get up at three am to go to work. Fortunately this week I took off for the holidays.


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## paulr44 (Oct 14, 2008)

You say it won't pump. How are you deteremining this? Have you checked output from the pump itself, before the carburetor?


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## brokenknee (Dec 22, 2008)

paulr44 said:


> You say it won't pump. How are you determining this? Have you checked output from the pump itself, before the carburetor?


Yes, I took the fuel line off from the carb and put the line in a coffee can. I did this before I pulled the old one off to see how much it pumped so I had a reference for when I put the new one on.

I was getting fuel flow from the old pump, but not as much as the John Deere guy said I should (He said it should shoot out 2 to 3 Inches)

When I changed the pumps I no longer got any thing from the discharge side of the new pump. Put the old pump back on and no longer got any flow from that.


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## golftech (Jan 3, 2009)

I posted something but neglected to read the last page of posts first. :freak:


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## golftech (Jan 3, 2009)

HEY!!!!!!!!! I think you've got the lines attached wrong. I think the 2 bottom ones are reversed!!!! The one on the bottom with the fuel filter should go on the right side,and the other one to the bottom. If you look on the face of the pump,there should be an IN and OUT arrow. The one facing downward is the vacuum from the engine. The other two are fuel. The one on the upper front is correct that's going to the carb.


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## brokenknee (Dec 22, 2008)

DUHHHHH! boy do I feel STUPID, in my hurry to get his fuel pump on (his wife had lunch ready) I reversed the vacuum and fuel lines on the pump. Now I wish I could say that I found the problem, but I did not. He brought it in to the John Deere dealer and they caught it. Being the good guys they are they did not even charge him. So kudos to the JD dealership in Alexandria MN. 

So right now the thing is running, good thing as it is starting to snow, again I have heard anywhere from 2 to 9 inches. Those weather people really know how to narrow it down. 

Thanks everyone for the help and have a great day.


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## brokenknee (Dec 22, 2008)

golftech said:


> HEY!!!!!!!!! I think you've got the lines attached wrong. I think the 2 bottom ones are reversed!!!! The one on the bottom with the fuel filter should go on the right side,and the other one to the bottom. If you look on the face of the pump,there should be an IN and OUT arrow. The one facing downward is the vacuum from the engine. The other two are fuel. The one on the upper front is correct that's going to the carb.



I didn't read your post before I wrote my last post.

YOU are Correct and win the price. Again I must state how stupid I feel. Once I connected it wrong I did it the same when I put the old pump on. Then again when I put the new one on again. 

It just shows the importance of paying attention when you take something apart. Most of the times I will take pictures before taking apart, this time I was in a hurry and got careless.


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## golftech (Jan 3, 2009)

That's ok,and thank you for the prize. 
I deal with that style pump at work and caught it immediately.


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## brokenknee (Dec 22, 2008)

golftech said:


> That's ok,and thank you for the prize.
> I deal with that style pump at work and caught it immediately.


By the way, the prize is just bragging rights.


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## golftech (Jan 3, 2009)

OH shucks,and I was hoping for something more substantial. OH WELL,maybe next time.


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## dj722000 (Oct 29, 2008)

Yeah those little things will catch you every time specially when someone mentions food!! LOL Glad you got it fixed.


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## brokenknee (Dec 22, 2008)

dj722000 said:


> Yeah those little things will catch you every time specially when someone mentions food!! LOL Glad you got it fixed.


I'm hungry!!!!!


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