# accurizing the Chariot's Treads



## TOS Maniac (Jun 26, 2006)

I have tread dread. Though the rest of the kit is astounding in it's accuracy and detail, the treads leave much to be desired. Is anyone planning on an after market accurate set of treads, preferably made from styrene with an accurate level of detail?
there should be gaps between the "cleats"-


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

Probably resin tracks would be best. They can be cast flat and then heated to bend around the suspension. The type of track used on the Snowcat doesn't really work well with seperate links since the real track is a continuous band. The (poor) Lunar Models tracks ere done this way. 

Some new resin wheels and sprockets would be nice too. The real vehicle has the suspension mounted on torsion bars as well, and the long tubes that support the kit wheels are not on the real vehicle.


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## john_trek (Apr 13, 2000)

The two most obvious weak links in the model, IMHO, are the treads and the curtains. 

The treads in the kit look ok, but only if you don't directly compare them to a picture of the original. 

At the least I'm thinking I should weather the treads in some way, to tone down that dark black color. It makes the model look too toyish. 

Not sure how to go about it, as I said in an earlier post I am not that familiar with rubber parts. Haven't got a clue what paints would work on it.


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## Paulbo (Sep 16, 2004)

How many people would be interested in cloth curtains? I've got a buddy who does phenomenal scale cloth for various scale naval flags and ensigns. (His system eliminates all that pesky fraying one gets from just cutting plain old cloth.) Between the two of us, we could work up the perfect set - but I won't bother if there isn't enough call for it. Let me know ...


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## TOS Maniac (Jun 26, 2006)

I'm just planning on accordioning some lengths of grey duct tape to simulate the curtains. I will make them look a little more realisticallly "disheveled"/imperfect


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## gareee (Jan 1, 1970)

I liked the idea of cut and gathered "space blanket" type curtains.. there is also silver spandex like material you can buy from cloth stores, and in craft sections like walmart.


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## toyroy (Jul 17, 2005)

djnick66 said:


> ...Probably resin tracks would be best. They can be cast flat and then heated to bend around the suspension...


I think that sounds good, for a static model. 

For an RC model, tracks built much like the prototype would probably run best. That is, stamped or cast metal cleats, including the road wheel teeth, pinned or riveted to flexible plastic strip, using metal plates. Of course, the road wheels would need to be accurized also.


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## AJ-1701 (May 10, 2008)

TOS Maniac said:


> I'm just planning on accordioning some lengths of grey duct tape to simulate the curtains. I will make them look a little more realisticallly "disheveled"/imperfect


The only thing with duct tape is it has a possability of going "off" at least the stuff over here does.


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## AJ-1701 (May 10, 2008)

Paulbo said:


> How many people would be interested in cloth curtains? I've got a buddy who does phenomenal scale cloth for various scale naval flags and ensigns. (His system eliminates all that pesky fraying one gets from just cutting plain old cloth.) Between the two of us, we could work up the perfect set - but I won't bother if there isn't enough call for it. Let me know ...


Sounds good to me. :thumbsup:

I was thinking of using some thin a4 printer or craft paper sprayed with a light film of dull coat dry brushed silver then creased and folded up. And since my chariot isn't gonna be here for a couple of more weeks I can experiment. Something else I have used in the past is the foil from wine/champagne bottles it always did well to make capes n similar in my wargaming models.

Just my thoughts.:wave:


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## AJ-1701 (May 10, 2008)

john_trek said:


> The two most obvious weak links in the model, IMHO, are the treads and the curtains.
> 
> The treads in the kit look ok, but only if you don't directly compare them to a picture of the original.
> 
> ...


Most flexible acrylic paints work on rubber as long as it dosn't get moved about to much. Thin layers work better and make sure the rubber is really well scrubbed and dry. depending on how porus the rubber is you can use inks and stains as well.


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## Ductapeforever (Mar 6, 2008)

Aircraft tissue will work best and give the best scale effect, it's thin is easily workable into folds and can be hung along thin strands of bell wire. Tracks are another matter, I plan on making a master from cut strips of Evergreen styrene, adding the buttons between the tires, a six inch strip should suffice, then cast the thing in resin in two sections for the 12 inch length. Piece of cake!


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## toyroy (Jul 17, 2005)

Ductapeforever said:


> Aircraft tissue will work best and give the best scale effect, it's thin is easily workable into folds and can be hung along thin strands of bell wire...


Do the airplane coverings come in silver color?


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

toyroy said:


> Do the airplane coverings come in silver color?


Yes Easybuilt models sells it. But basically you can get silver tissue in Wal Mart, etc in with wrapping paper, etc. It is essentially the same stuff and cheaper. The Easybuilt stuff handles glue etc better. The Wal Mart paper discolors when wet or damp.


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

toyroy said:


> I think that sounds good, for a static model.
> 
> For an .


I don't see this making a good motorized model. If you did want to run it the vinyl kit tracks would be ok. Its not really practical to have super detailed AND workable tracks... one or the other but not both.


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## Lou Dalmaso (Jul 13, 2004)

*Curses...*

has any tried just using folded up aluminum foil for the curtains?

maybe with a light wash of black to bring out the detail?

seems to me the best approximation of foil is foil.:wave:


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## gareee (Jan 1, 1970)

That was my initial idea.. but I'd use the back side, (less shiny), and maybe even some of the aluminum foil with a slight texture to it.


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## Richard Baker (Aug 8, 2006)

I like the foil idea- it gives you the most control. A mist of dull coat should get the texture.


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## starseeker2 (Jun 13, 2008)

I posted a sketch of the Chariots tread at:
http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=181293
and my best picture of the Chariot's treads at 
http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/attachment.php?attachmentid=64565&d=1218994476


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## falcon49xxxx (Aug 4, 2008)

or use Bare Metal Foil.


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## toyroy (Jul 17, 2005)

starseeker2 said:


> ...my best picture of the Chariot's treads at
> http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/attachment.php?attachmentid=64565&d=1218994476


Is this picture series-contemporaneous? The tracks appear silver here.


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## gaetan (Apr 6, 2005)

Roy

Just look a the man's suit and you will get your answer..... It looks very sixtyish to me...

Gaétan


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

Note also the wheels are silver, and you can clearly see the wheels/tires are about 1/3 the depth of the bloated kit tires.

Notice also that about every three feet is a large bar across the track like a traction grouser.


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## woof359 (Apr 27, 2003)

i need to watch the Angry Sea tonight, probly the best shot of the curtans. i never relized they were silver.and dont forget the dent in the right front of the chassis


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## woof359 (Apr 27, 2003)

Hungry Sea?


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## starseeker2 (Jun 13, 2008)

He's the man who wrote the pilot. Would have been taken in 1964.


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## toyroy (Jul 17, 2005)

Thank you. 

Were any changes made to the chariot between the first pilot, and the series? Or, for that matter, during the series? For instance, were there any color changes?


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

toyroy said:


> Thank you.
> 
> Were any changes made to the chariot between the first pilot, and the series? Or, for that matter, during the series? For instance, were there any color changes?


I mentioned this before... its obvious there are some color and detail changes. Like the Robot, the Chariot was probably touched up for Season 2 when the show switched to color. If you notice in Season 1, the robot has silver claws, silver chest plate and the spinning things on his neck are silver. There are photos of the Chariot showing silver wheels. The box the scanner mounts on may have been orange at some point. The full size Chariot also did not nececarilly match the various filming miniatures.


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## toyroy (Jul 17, 2005)

djnick66 said:


> ...Like the Robot, the Chariot was probably touched up for Season 2 when the show switched to color...


Just what I was thinking! Lemme try this again: _what_ changes, specifically, were made to the full-size chariot, and when?


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## X15-A2 (Jan 21, 2004)

The tracks should be the same red color as the Chariot framing and chassis. Only the rubber belts that hold them together are black on the real snowcats. They should be rubbed silver on the edges and weathered with an earth tone dust for that "used" look.


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

Its obvious from color photos that the LiS Chariot tracks aren't red.


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## X15-A2 (Jan 21, 2004)

There is something wacky about the seats in this Chariot kit also. Not sure what they were based on but the full scale prop used a type of injection molded plastic patio chair for the passenger seats. If you watch the show you can see that the attachment points for the four metal legs are still hanging down under the seats. The studio removed the metal legs and mounted the seat to a single metal post which probably swiveled (I'm not certain that they swiveled). When I was a kid we had some of those same chairs so I'm quite familiar with them. They were molded in a vinyl-like plastic that was a good color match for "Irwin Allen Orange" (although they may have been sold in other colors too but ours were orange like the ones the studio used). In form they looked very much like the Burke chairs used on Star Trek but were flexible instead of being ridged. I'm not sure about the drivers chairs but the Chariot would have used whatever came standard in the original Spryte snowcats I'm sure. To me, this looks like another good opportunity for some after-market accurizing kit parts.


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## X15-A2 (Jan 21, 2004)

On the track color, look again. The miniature was built to match the full scale in color and red is how the Spryte tracks come from the factory. Once again, the belts that connect the cross pieces are black but the metal pieces are red.


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## X15-A2 (Jan 21, 2004)

Admittedly it is difficult to see clearly but I think you can see the red metal bars and the black belts in this shot.


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

The miniature does NOT match the full size Chariot, at least at all times. There are notable detail differences. The full size vehicle does not have red tracks. At least they weren't red by the time the vehicle was converted for the show. There are clear color photos showing silver or weathered tracks but no red.


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## starseeker2 (Jun 13, 2008)

I'll be darned. The red treads on the miniature are obvious, but I never noticed that in the full scale before. But if you look at the side shot of the Chariot with the kids sitting in it, there is a hint of red on the treads top front and top back. Of course, that probably would have been worn and weathered really quickly, but that is a very cool possibility. And would make for a spectacularly difficult paint job. I must try it as soon as I finish building the treads. Which may take years. Sigh.
No the miniature didn't match the full size all the time. The full size didn't match the full size all the time either. Just watched The Hungry Sea. The is no way they could get cameras, lights, sound, water hoses and drains into the "real" Chariot. There had to have been a second one, with wild sections, at least for the interior. Which explains why there are two interiors. 
Would they have built the "real" Chariot with all the computers, etc? Remember in an early episode when the giant electric tumbleweed runs into it and blows its circuits. Supposedly there is a classic LIS blooper there where the Chariots power cable(s) is(are) visible. Would the off-road Chariot have needed a giant extension cord or might it have been pretty bare bones and they have saved all the flashing lights and wild sections for a water resistant prop version? 
Okay, not going to mention anything more about 2 Chariots.


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

I have to wonder why the Fox miniature department would have bothered to put red tracks on the miniature if not for the purpose of replicating the paint scheme of the full scale mock-up.


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## gaetan (Apr 6, 2005)

Hey guys 

At first, I considered X15 track hypothesis heresy but I went to check my images bank and he is right the tracks looks red....... I don't know how to post pics here but I could send it to one of you, so he could post it for all....

Gaétan


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

gaetan said:


> At first, I considered X15 track hypothesis heresy


You obviously have no idea who you're dealing with, lol.

Send the images to me if you like. I'd be happy post them (PM me first, and I'll forward my email addy).

In the meantime, I stumbled upon this shot in a related HT thread...

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd222/idMonster/Chariot20w-kids.jpg

Seems pretty apparent the raised areas are (a dirty) reddish-orange.


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## toyroy (Jul 17, 2005)

First picture is another view of the same miniature. You're looking at rust. Second picture is of the actual Spryte tracks. The steel is either painted, or, more likely, chemically blackened. From Phil Broad's site.


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

Are you suggesting the orange coloration seen on the tracks in this image is due to rust?

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd222/idMonster/Chariot20w-kids.jpg

Knowing Phil, I'd be very surprised if he was pulling the info quoted below out of his, uh, behind. 



X15-A2 said:


> red is how the Spryte tracks come from the factory.


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## toyroy (Jul 17, 2005)

Carson Dyle said:


> Are you suggesting the orange coloration seen on the tracks in this image is due to rust?


No, it looks more like a reflection from shiny areas, where the blackening has worn off.


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## toyroy (Jul 17, 2005)

CARSON DYLE said:


> Knowing Phil, I'd be very surprised if he was pulling the info quoted below out of his, uh, behind.





X15-A2 said:


> ...red is how the Spryte tracks come from the factory...


The chariot was not a standard Snowcat that was modified; it was built special by the manufacturer- including the paint. I can't remember where I read that, unfortunately.


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

toyroy said:


> No, it looks more like a reflection from shiny areas, where the blackening has worn off.


Boy, are we reading that image differently. 

Ah, well, fortunately we're free to paint our respective Chariots whatever color we chose. 

Based on the info posted herein, the raised areas on my treads will be a weathered reddish orange.


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## starseeker2 (Jun 13, 2008)

Reflection in the kids photo was my first thought but the treads on the 24" are red. The second photo above of the tracks is of the inside of the tracks and in all photos (I think) the inside surfaces appear uniformly dark. It's the outer surfaces, the... what are they? - treads? cleats? that could be red. 
As for posting attachments, if you've got jpgs, just make sure they're less than about 80k (if they're bigger, go to Save As and save them as a different file name (to your desktop is the easiest way of finding them for posting) and when it asks you file size, go smaller), then go Post Reply, Go Advanced, Manage Attachments, Browse to find your attachment, click on it, and press Upload. Soon you will need 11 different identities and still be constantly deleting past attachments in order to squeeze in just one more. (I will clean up this mess someday.)
I'm constantly amazed by how many photos there are of things like the Chariot that crop up out of the blue. And I'm sure that most of these b&w photos we see everywhere exist in color, too. What happened to people like Phil Lubin and Flint Mitchell and why aren't they here?


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## toyroy (Jul 17, 2005)

Carson Dyle said:


> ...Based on the info posted herein, the raised areas on my treads will be a weathered reddish orange.


Mine will be black, with silver or steel dry-brushed on the steel high points. I want mine to look like the full-size chariot, at the time of the show. Although, it's possible that the tracks were silver colored, early in the series.


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## X15-A2 (Jan 21, 2004)

OK, hold your horses here everyone and take a breath.

First, the Chariot was NOT based on a custom-made chassis (nor did it have "custom paint". Don't where that "whopper" came from...)! It WAS however a custom BODY on a standard factory-made Thiokol "Spryte" chassis. As for color, these snow-cats came in any color the customer wanted, as long as he wanted it "orange" (to paraphrase...).

I AM "Phil Broad" of the aforementioned web site and the close-up shot of the tracks was taken by me around 1978-79 at the "China Peak" ski resort at Huntington Lake in the Sierra mountains. True, those tracks were NOT painted, they looked to be bare steel or possibly galvanized steel. It is very likely that Thiokol stopped painting the tracks by that time to save costs of manufacture. HOWEVER, old '60s vintage "Sprytes" HAD painted tracks. Obviously I'm the only one here who regularly searches for these snow-cats on Ebay. I highly recommend it as a source for photos of just about anything but over the years, many of these vehicles have been sold there and the sellers usually provide very nice pictures (which I save). This is where you can see these details most often. China Peak had another copy there of the Spryte that still had the painted tracks, this is not something that is in question, there are many other examples all around the country.

Finally, the miniature tracks are NOT red from "rust". Good grief, to you really think that they made the model out of steel?? How likely is it that it would rust so uniformly from one edge to another on EVERY piece? To me, this part of the discussion is like arguing with "UFO" or "Big Foot" believers over their latest "theory". Those miniature tracks were made of soldered brass or copper (most likely brass for better strength) but not steel. Even if they were made of steel, the rust would be much darker in tone and not coincidently a similar shade to that of the orange painted portions. Don't you guys think so? 

The reason the tracks frequently appear "black" in many photos is simply because they are usually in shadow.

Of course, this does leave us with a difficult detail to paint on the kit...


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

Jeez Phil, it took you long enough.


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## toyroy (Jul 17, 2005)

X15-A2 said:


> ...I AM "Phil Broad" of the aforementioned web site and the close-up shot of the tracks was taken by me around 1978-79...True, those tracks were NOT painted, they looked to be bare steel or possibly galvanized steel. It is very likely that Thiokol stopped painting the tracks by that time to save costs of manufacture. HOWEVER, old '60s vintage "Sprytes" HAD painted tracks...China Peak had another copy there of the Spryte that still had the painted tracks, this is not something that is in question, there are many other examples all around the country...


Hi Phil,

And thanks for all your support, to all us modelers. I must differ about the later tracks being bare or galvanized, as both finishes are a silvery metallic color. Until, that is, they start rusting- which would be quickly, if made of completely unfinished, bare(non-stainless) steel. No, they would have an industrial chemical blackening, or black paint.

I don't question, or care, that regular Snowcat tracks may have been painted red at the time the chariot was built. The chariot was a "special order", and understood to be a Hollywood sci-fi screen prop. If Allen wanted the tracks in glow-in-the-dark green, I don't think the maker would have said no- having accepted the rest of the project. 



X15-A2 said:


> Finally, the miniature tracks are NOT red from "rust"...(d)o you really think that they made the model out of steel?? How likely is it that it would rust so uniformly from one edge to another on EVERY piece?...Those miniature tracks were made of soldered brass or copper (most likely brass for better strength) but not steel. Even if they were made of steel, the rust would be much darker in tone and not coincidently a similar shade to that of the orange painted portions. Don't you guys think so?
> 
> The reason the tracks frequently appear "black" in many photos is simply because they are usually in shadow...


I posted the pic I did(which needs to be clicked for full enlargement) specifically to show the uneven finish. I don't know when those shots were taken, but if enough years had passed since the prop's making, even blackened steel would have a uniform "light" rusting, and likely patches of deeper rust, too- as appears to me to be the case here. The square tubular cleats are clearly made of a thin gauge metal. Mild steel that thin would not be that hard to work. On the other hand, K&S make such tubing in brass today(don't know about the time the prop was made.)

I will need more compelling evidence that the chariot tracks, or a portion thereof, were painted red or orange, and depicted as such typically on "Lost in Space" episode footage.


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

The bigger issue than what color the tracks were (I still don't think they were red or were red for long as color photos clearly show them NOT red) is the kit tracks bear absolutely no resemblence to the real thing, nor do the kit wheels and the whole design of the suspension itself. I'm not sure how the suspension of the kit was designed but aside from the number of wheels it is 110% inaccurate in scale, detail, proportions etc.


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## starseeker2 (Jun 13, 2008)

Duplicate post below:


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## starseeker2 (Jun 13, 2008)

Yet I find it interesting that in certain photos of the Chariot there seems to be some red on the treads, that in the sfx on the LIS Forever dvd there is a red haze around the moving treads that shows up on screen and in captures, that the miniature treads were definitely red, and that apparently at the time of the Chariot Thiokol tracks were red. Looks like a duck, walks like a duck...
That said, there are noticable differences in the paint jobs between the 24" miniature and the early full size Chariot. 
On the 24" the back door only opens to the bottom of the back window, where on the full size the door continues past the bumpers.
Both have silver curtains.
Both have a red panel under the radar dish.
Neither has a rear view mirror.
The 24" is red inside on the vertical surfaces under the front control panels and on both surfaces surrounding the cockpit. The full size is silver or grey all around the cockpit. 
The 24" is red under the scanner. The full size is silver or grey under the scanner. 
Both have an aluminum or grey floor.
Both have orange passenger seats with black cushions, snap on for the full size. 
The sides of the bench seats and all the interior trim are red on both versions. 
The tops of the bench seats are silver or grey. 
And the cushions on the bench seats are medium grey. 
And on the full size Chariot, there are two different sets of handles that appear on the ceiling beneath the scanner and fog lights.
For "red" read "orange" if you believe in the orange interior theory. 
As to tread accuracy, heading off to the hobby shop today for 12 miles each of the smallest Evergreen channel and square tube.


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

I was looking at making treads but each bar would have something like 15 parts by the time you make all the bolts, stiffeners, guide teeth, etc. And you can't make tracks like the real ones without making new idlers and sprockets. The kit wheels are three times as fat as they should be.


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## starseeker2 (Jun 13, 2008)

I know.
I'm wondering how my Seaview differs from a scratch-build. I haven't used any of the interior or any of the FS bay, and every single other part has been modified to the point where the only thing that's left is the sides of the sail, some of the top of the sail, the sides of the deck, and 3/4s round the hull. 
I look at the Chariot: add missing framing, open the back door, replace the side doors, heavily modify the interior, and the treads and wheels and tires, and light the thing. 
But boy it's fun!!


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

djnick66 said:


> The bigger issue than what color the tracks were (I still don't think they were red or were red for long as color photos clearly show them NOT red)


I am puzzled by the seemingly contradictory photographic evidence. In some shots the treads appear to be obviously red, and in some they appear to be obviously not.

I guess the main reason I choose to buy into the whole red thing (aside from my friend Phil's familiarity with the subject) has to do with Irwin Allen's mandate that as much color be crammed into each color-TV friendly frame of his shows as possible. The notion that Allen's art department would have toned down or eradicated the color of the treads (or the color of _anything_ for that matter) does not jibe with the otherwise color-saturated visual aesthetic of the series. 

A few months ago, at Gary Kerr's behest, I asked frequent IA art director Bill Creber if the Fox Art Department had utilized any sort of standardized color system as a means of coordinating the various tones and hues found on IA sets, props, miniatures etc. Gary's thinking was that if something like the Pantone system had been used, and a record had been kept, it would eradicate a lot of guesswork for IA model makers. Anyway, after pondering my question in his customarily laconic manner, Creber finally chuckled softly and said "Well... Irwin liked orange."

That's a true story, and even though Creber couldn't remember what color system (if any) had been used, I think his comment speaks volumes about late 60's art direction -- especially when it comes to sci-fi. 

When it doubt, just remember (say it with me), "Irwin liked orange."


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## starseeker2 (Jun 13, 2008)

Tho my favorite photo of the Chariot, of it being loaded with luggage, #19 or something on Phil Broad's site, shows no sign of red on the treads, the treads are in shadow and between lighting conditions and film sensitivity, etc, maybe this photo isn't accurate. A study done in cockpits showed that under low light levels, red becomes invisible. That's why since the 1970s emergency vehicles, warning lights, etc, are never red. In the right level of darkness, red becomes black, not good for fire engines or fuel warnings. Maybe my favorite Chariot photo was taken in just those perfect conditions???


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

I think the "red" on the track is either reddish dirt/dust or a reflection of the red chassis on silver tracks. 

On a practical note, if you painted tank tracks red and ran around in the gravel and sand for 5 minutes they would not be red any more...


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## john_trek (Apr 13, 2000)

I just bought Season 2, Volume 1 on DVD (I got a good deal, otherwise I wasn't willing to bother with Season 2). At the begining of "The Deadly Games of Gamma 6" the Chariot treads are either red or orange, but they are definately not grey or silver. 

Given that the Chariot is sitting on rather dull sand, I'm hard pressed to think I'm looking at red dust covered tracks. 

I wouldn't have ever spotted it if people hadn't pointed it out, but the darned things are indeed orange. 

I can't even imagine how I could paint the treads on the Moebius kit a red or orange shade and not have them look stupid, so from a modeling standpoint it's rather moot.


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## Ductapeforever (Mar 6, 2008)

Kind'a flogging a dead horse here aren't we folks?


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## TOS Maniac (Jun 26, 2006)

flogging a dead chariot.

oh the pain...


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## TOS Maniac (Jun 26, 2006)

that sounded more negative that i meant. tread problems or no, it's an amazing kit. I can't wait to build it. Who'd ever think that one day we'd ever have such an amazing replica of the chariot?


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## Richard Baker (Aug 8, 2006)

I would have been happy with a kit half this size with almost no detail- anything would have been better that the one inthe Aurora Cyclops Encounter model kit.

My only problem with the tracks is not about accuracy but display- they seem to wave and sag on the kit build-up inthe instruction sheets. I know those were rushed from the paint job issues, but has anyone fully assembled a Chariot yet? Are the tracks still wavy after you put yours together?

As to colors- I am going to build two kits- one will be using colors of my choice to make it look good to just me instead of trying to follow TOS scheme. The second will slavishly attempt to match the TV show prop/miniatures. That will be a later kit, by then I think the true colors might be finally determined.

.


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

Ductapeforever said:


> Kind'a flogging a dead horse here aren't we folks?


No harm in sweating the details as long as the discussion remains civil. If nothing else, it keeps us off the streets.


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