# The Real Thing vs. Reproduction



## wnovess99 (Mar 1, 2006)

I have not noticed this in my own auctions on ebay. Nice original cars seem to still sell for what they should. But I am sure over time that will change.

Do these Auto World (and eairlyer Johnny Lightning) reproductions of old AFX and T-jet cars make buying original Aurora cars less attractive to you? I still like the Aurora cars better, my self, but I was just curious what some of you other guys thought about this. 

I am probably opening the wrong can of worms on this topic lol

-- Elliot


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## micyou03 (Apr 8, 2003)

I like the JL and AW chassis better than AFX and Aurora. I put them under many of my AFX bodies.


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## noddaz (Aug 6, 1999)

*Interesting..*



micyou03 said:


> I like the JL and AW chassis better than AFX and Aurora. I put them under many of my AFX bodies.


Please explain why...


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## TK Solver (Mar 18, 2004)

I am rarely impressed with most of the original AFX bodies. The detail wasn't great. The paint jobs weren't crisp. There are exceptions (the bizarre paint scheme on the silver and black #30), but the Johnny Lightnings were nice looking. The detail on the Mopar releases was very impressive. Now I'm very interested to compare the new AW X-Traction Camaros against the popular AFX Camaros. If the AW versions don't look like 4WD Camaros, I think it could hurt sales of those originals.


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## Crimnick (May 28, 2006)

LOL...I been going the other way....any AFX cars I have I leave them be....I liked the johny lightning bodies...wasnt to impressed with the chassis....so I put SRT's and super G+ under them......

I picked up a couple auto world mopars last week and a couple of the t-jet bowties...I am very impressed with the body detail....nice paint...clear badges....etc...I havent run any of them yet...

Track is down at the moment for space needed to store some furniture...

Even my season is opposite...being in OHIO...and only having the garage left...and no heat....means I pretty much race spring ,summer ,and fall...


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## micyou03 (Apr 8, 2003)

noddaz said:


> Please explain why...



Especially the X-Tractions from the F&F release on I find the JL chassis to run much faster and smoother. Many of my AFX chassis sound like they are dragging when I run them. I have even noticed that on some of them the area between the pick-up shoes actually does drag and I had to grind that area down a bit. I have not had this problem with X-Traction. And I find the X-Traction chassis to have more power and speed then M/Ts.

Now for the JL Tuffones. When I was a kid Aurora Tuffones were my favorite cars to run. Over the last couple of years I was able to purchase about 15 different Aurora Tuffones cars and eventually sold all but I think four. None of those cars ever ran as good as my JL Tuffones. I simply open my JL chassis adjust the brush tension, remove one rear wheel, gob up the gears with crest toothpaste, attach a drill to the rear axle and run the drill to lap the gears until the weight of the chassis will stop the chassis from spinning when I let it go. Clean it with hot water, oil it up and it will usually run great. I haven't gotten many that have the bent axles that everyone complains about. I had a couple chassis where the rear axle hole was too big. On those I close the hole a bit with epoxy. I really enjoy the ones that I made skinny with Aurora axles and wheels.

I am running them at 20 volts with a 125 ohm controller. The JL Tuffones are miserable for mr to run with a 60 ohm controller.

I was racing in a Tuffones class a couple of years ago and we could run JL Tuffones or Aurora Tuffones and the Auroras could not compete with the JLs. Eventually everyone was running JLs.


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## micyou03 (Apr 8, 2003)

I am not a fan of the strong magnet cars. I can tolerate a Tomy Turbo or Tyco HP7, but more than that does not do much for me.


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## ParkRNDL (Mar 20, 2002)

JL vs. originals? Apples and oranges. Sure, I have loads of JLs, and many of them are replicas of originals such as Firebirds, GTOs, and Mustangs. That doesn't make me any less appreciative of the relatively few originals I have. When I go to shows, I still look for deals on original beater cars, even if they're cars I can get cheap replicas of. For example, say I'm poking through a dollar junk box at a show... there's a new JL Firebird body with all its pieces and an original Firebird missing bumpers and windows and with lightly shaved wheelwells, but it would look good with replacement parts... if I had only one dollar left, I'd go for the original car just because it's original. 

Same thing with Dash's replicas... I LOVE his new Galaxies and i have a couple, but I'd still jump on an original if I had the chance...

--rick


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## roadrner (Jul 21, 1999)

The great thing about all of this is what the ? We have old, new & more. They all have a rightfull place in slotcar history, manufacturing and future. I'm just glad someone had the $ and desire to bring it back. Thanks to all! rr


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## sethndaddy (Dec 4, 2004)

I like to mix and match some parts and get some frankencars. there both great. 
But to answer the original question, In a heartbeat I would buy a johnny lightning repop for 3 or 4 dollars as opposed to shelling out 130.00 or so for a brown nomad.


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## SplitPoster (May 16, 2006)

_JL vs. originals? Apples and oranges. Thank you.

That's kind of like asking if I'd prefer a 3 year old Mustang over a '70. Or if I want to chunk my prewar Lionel 225 steam loco for a new Chinese made one, because the new one runs better. (Yes, it does, and the train dealers tell me I need to put the old ones on the shelf and run the new ones. Why do you think that i$ ?) In an ideal world I'd have all, and enjoy them each in a different way.

Really, do you think just maybe a reproduction made 35 years later might benefit from some new manufacturing techniques and materials? Do you think Aurora could mass produce those crisp little logos back then? Why don't you try to post on this forum using a 1980 vintage computer, then enlighten all about how much better the new ones are..... 

Call them reproductions, copies, continuation, whatever. FACT IS the orignal 1970 (updated from 1962) concept, design and execution was good enough that someone is still selling it, profiting from someone else's brainchild. 

Values? "AFX cars as investment" is probably not going to buy you that condo in Boca.... But if you look at other things automotive tiny or 1:1, copies and retros have not hurt value of good originals. (I.E. Cobras vs kit cars, Hot Wheels new vs. '60's redlines, new Mini vs. original Mini, ...... just the opposite is true. Copying is the most sincere form of flattery.

However, if the "market" for beater UOP Shadows, wingless Lola T-260's, cracked Daytonas and sandblasted, crooked Camaros goes down in flames, so be it. 

An original Aurora Torino is still tops on my Christmas list!

Jeff_


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## TK Solver (Mar 18, 2004)

The analogy of a 70 Mustang and a current one doesn't fly. If Ford was now making actual replicas of 70 Mustangs today, we could ponder it and I would agree that they still really wouldn't be the same. There are MANY issues regarding complete 1:1 cars that aren't a factor with plastic slot car bodies. They'd feel different, drive differently, and even smell different and there's value in enjoying all those senses. But these are just painted plastic bodies we're talking about. Today's technology allows companies to make replicas and, in some cases, make them look even better than the originals. That's sure to shrink the market for the originals.


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## micyou03 (Apr 8, 2003)

The reproductions deffinatley shrink the market for originals. A few months before JL came out with their first release of Tuffones slot cars I was trying to get the Aurora Tuffones #21 Cougar, #5 AMX, #7 Firebird, and #1 Camaro. I couldn't get any of them for less tha $50 each. Soon after JLs first release came out they were selling for about $35. Now I see many of these sell for less than $30.

Before JL people who wanted cars to run on their tracks had to compete with collectors and nostalgia seekers. Now people who just want cars to run only need to compete with others who are only looking for cars to run, and there is no need to pay more than what you can pay to a store or online dealer.

As far as the Mustang analogy goes if I had the choice of 70 Mustang or a 70 Mustang body on a 2007 chassis I would without a doubt take the 70 Mustang body on the 2007 chassis. And even though I like the 70 Mustang body more than the 2007 Mustang body I would even take the 2007 Mustang over a 1970 Mustang because it would run better and be more dependable.


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## ParkRNDL (Mar 20, 2002)

TK Solver said:


> The analogy of a 70 Mustang and a current one doesn't fly. If Ford was now making actual replicas of 70 Mustangs today, we could ponder it and I would agree that they still really wouldn't be the same.


Maybe not Mustangs, but how about Camaros?

http://www.corbettsauto.com/1969_camaro_new_body_parts.htm

Would you prefer original over "crate"? There really is no right answer, it's all personal preference.



TK Solver said:


> (snip) But these are just painted plastic bodies we're talking about. Today's technology allows companies to make replicas and, in some cases, make them look even better than the originals. That's sure to shrink the market for the originals.


In some ways, but there are some things that the new bodies don't do as well as the originals. Maybe I'm crazy, but I think that original Tjets have sharper, smaller details (in some cases) than the new/replica ones. Two examples: The Aurora Firebird has very very small "PONTIAC" lettering on the trunk lid and "400" on the hood scoops. The JL leaves them off. Aurora's GTO has "GTO" lettering on the front fenders, JL doesn't. I wonder if the AW '68 Camaro coming out will have the "Chevrolet" and "Camaro" and "SS" scripts that the Aurora one had on the hood, trunk lid, and fenders, but I doubt it...

This is not to say the old ones were perfect. I wrote a comparison of Dash's Galaxie with an original Aurora where I pointed out places that he actually cleaned up mold imperfections that were in the Auroras.

I always kinda thought it had to do with the plastic being used. The old Aurora bodies, according to the history books, were made of the same stuff as old telephone shells of the '60s (remember turquoise Princess phones?). I think the chemical name is Cycolac, but i can't remember for sure. Anyway, it seems more brittle than the stuff used in bodies made today, which definitely seems more flexible (and therefore more durable, by the way, which is an advantage of the new ones). I always had the idea that something about the old stuff made it able to mold tiny details better...

Then on the other hand, modern produced bodies make up for all that in their painted or pad-printed details. The trim and emblems and logos on current JL (and I assume AW) cars are pretty amazing, and that technology didn't exist in Aurora's time, as far as I know...

sometimes it's amazing how long i can ramble on about little plastic cars. (well, the word my wife uses is definitely not "amazing"...  )

--rick


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## sethndaddy (Dec 4, 2004)

The only change I would ask Tom Lowe to make to his line (and I know it'll never ever happen)
Is to mold the cars in color instead of painting them, thats it.


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## T-jetjim (Sep 12, 2005)

Elliot- You were right, you did open a can of worms, but fun topic. Kind of like Jim Brown vs. Ladanian Tomlinson. Two different eras, different training, specialists and oxygen vs. every play and tough it out.
I will buy every new car that comes out (Dash, AW, etc.), but I will always want original Aurora. Maybe because I grew up with T-jets and experienced the roll out of AFX, that I will always lean towards the originals. 
I buy wrecks on eBay and try to restore them. It gives me great enjoyment to take a car that would be tossed and refill wheel wells, get new bumpers and glass and make them look almost new.
I would guess that those of us old enough to have sets in the 60's & 70's would prefer originals. 
Jim


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## wnovess99 (Mar 1, 2006)

*Interesting*

Well I am glad everyone kept it "civil" After I posted this I thought things could get violent.

After readying all of these posts it made me realize there are really 2 different subjects here. Some guys like the re poped bodys but original chassis, and whatever other combonation you can think of.

I am very excited about the repop of the 701/2 Camaro. I dont want to distory my original. And the new AW AFX chassis is nice. But I like the old chassis better. Maybe when my AW cars show up next week and I play with a few more of them I will change my tune. And the printing on the new bodies is sweet. The AW General Lee is my favorte HO slot car. 

Alot of the repoped bodies are heavyer too. For instance the 74 Chevelle. The Aurora one is a very good racing body. The JL one is a tank.


-- Elliot


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## Crimnick (May 28, 2006)

ParkRNDL said:


> I wonder if the AW '68 Camaro coming out will have the "Chevrolet" and "Camaro" and "SS" scripts that the Aurora one had on the hood, trunk lid, and fenders, but I doubt it...


Well....If I may bo so bold...I opened the 71' challenger from AW...

a Paint review...

the body paint in red....near flawless....nice gloss....even color from top down to fenders and rocker panels...

The only error I see in assembly is the the rear spoiler has a small gap on the driver side about the thickness of a human hair...and you can only see it when held up to a light source....

The glass is clear with no glue spots or finger prints visible...

The hood scoop in satin finish black is crisp and well defined...

Body badges...Challenger side body badges and clear in silver with no errors..and the R/T with the letter "outline" and hollow center is clearly defined with proper placement...

The side marker lights front and rear are clearly defined in orange and red with Silver frames even...

Door handles are painted only...but good enough IMHO..

Gas cap is raised and painted silver with no slop....

Window trim is molded and painted silver....again...with no over runs...even the side posts on the glass is painted...

Front clip...head lights are well defined...the sub grill has a silver frame...and the challenger badge is painted...(I had to get a magnifying glass to see it clearly...but it is there along with the R/T badge)...turn signals are molded and painted orange....the chrome bumber is nice as well....there is again a small gap between the hood and the from grill...the hood seems to be a separate piece that is attached in a recess... 

The only flaw/mistake I see is the the under hood got no paint...you can only see it if you flip the car over....

The back clip..

The challenger R/T is painted again on top of the rear spoiler...with the center of the R and T being red....not perfect...but VERY nice..

The rear clip...tail lights stips are burnt orange with a black backround...the DODGE badge in the center is clearly defined .....the top strip is painted silver...and bottom ,a chrome attached piece...the exhaust pipes are molded and painted white....

Final opinion? 9 on a scale of ten...

This is a level of detail I could never accomplish on my own....and I have been painting 25mm wargaming figures for almost 30 years...there is no way to paint those badges by hand in cursive...

I either got extremely luckey.....and got the one painter who actually cared...or the level of detail in general is a huge improvment over the JL line..

This is a level of detail I've only previously seen in the bigger scales...or the way out of my budget Bauer bodies....

As a comparison...I pulled out a teal mustang coupe from Aroura.....the badges are simply touched with silver paint and undefined...bumpers are oK...but nothing to write home about....the interior is handpainted with over runs on the seat tops...and none of the posts of window trim is painted...

The mold itself is very good...but the painted top and the teal molded body are a shade off...

The vette I have has no paint on it at all....just the molded body and two black attached bumpers...

Now I know there is decades of difference in technology here...and that speaks for itself IMHO...

But I find I often remember toys of my youth in greater detail than they actually where...Imagination often fills the quality gap...

BTW...the two Bowtie TJ 500's I got are almost as detailed as the challenger...and the paint on them is very Nice as well....

I know there are some issues with the current First lap body releases , sitting high, etc...But I am very happy with these purchases(the Challenger and bowties)....even though I paid a couple bucks for mark up to support my local hobby shop...for 19 bucks for the challenger and 16 bucks each for the bowties...I am satisfied...

I'll wait on the R2 of this series to see if they correct any issues from customer feed back....but I will definately be getting the rest of the MOPAR set...

Taking in account inflation adjustments...these cars are a steal...

I"ll still be adding to my AFX collection as opportunity arises...but these babies are as detailed as some of the new Hotwheels and JL collector releases...and the go zoom on theor own....how cool is that?

I'm niether a racer nor a studied collector...I'm just a shmoe to plays with toy cars in the garage....but this shmoe is delighted to get his hands on cars he could never afford as a kid...and with quality of detail he still cant afford as an adult...

My 2.5 centavos.... :thumbsup:

BTW....spelling is not my strong suit either....LOL...


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## micyou03 (Apr 8, 2003)

I had a lock and joiner set with Aurora and Tyco cars in the late sixties and into the seventies. I had AFX track, Tyco track and I still enjoy playing with the new pancake cars better than the originals. And after I run a car for a while and get the itch for more new stuff I sell much of my old stuff.


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## Crimnick (May 28, 2006)

The first set I had (besides a 1/43 oval....kids stuff) was the matchbox race and chase set with u-turn cars...a simple figure 8 with the flip bridge...

We ran the wheels of those two cars...

The next set (years later) was the AFX smoky and semi set....a hand me down from my step dad...added a lot to it for a few years...then it got packed away when I moved out....

fished it from the attic years later....and like a fool...left in the back of a hatch back for a week.....all the track warped...

I kept the cars and pitched the track...it was another decade or so, after the boys were born...that I bought a tyco set on clearance....I then added a cliff hanger set....and the then the lamborgini challenge...

I had never set up a 4 lane until I happened accross Greg brauns site and got the bug again...

Now....I'm hopeless...I add a car every few weeks....and browse eBAY when the wife isnt watching...the only one who will race with me is my 4 yr old daughter... :tongue:


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## SplitPoster (May 16, 2006)

The analogies from 1:1 cars were just generalizations. Things get hot and cold in everything "colllectible." " Collectability" itself draws a lot more to the market, and when more is made available the prices fall. Cheap things aren't worth cleaning up, fixing or restoring, and selling... LOTS of examples here

I think the value of little plastic car bodies is what people are willing to pay for them at any given time. If someone offers me a JL Brown Nomad MIB for $1, and a Brown AFX Nomad MIB for $20, I think I'll buy both, even though the second is 20x more expensive.

I am sitting here holding a Mopar Mania Challenger. Lots of detail, most of it straight and crisp, slightly crooked hood, painted not molded does detract a little from appearance under the valences. If it had been mass produced in 1968 with what was available at the time it would really have been an accomplishment.


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## rdavis8016 (Feb 11, 2005)

I had an Aurora set in the 60's. I spent a lot of time at the local hobby shop dreaming about the accessories I would buy. I added extra track pieces, spare parts and cars. When I look at an original Aurora car it reminds of those days.
I will always be fond of the original Aurora items and will always be interested in buying more. 

That being said, I also enjoy all of the new cars and will continue to buy them. I won't play with my original Aurora cars anymore so I need some new ones to play with.


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## ParkRNDL (Mar 20, 2002)

T-jetjim said:


> (snip)
> I buy wrecks on e*Bay and try to restore them. It gives me great enjoyment to take a car that would be tossed and refill wheel wells, get new bumpers and glass and make them look almost new.
> (snip)
> 
> Jim


I'm with you on that. I LOVE to get old beaters looking presentable again. I've often used JL parts on original cars, but I've also salvaged plastic pieces off of Hot Wheels and other diecasts to get old slot cars looking complete. Which reminds me, I have an old Tyco S Corvette downstairs that could use some attention...

--rick


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## Captain Fred (Feb 19, 2000)

I would go for the newer stuff in both slots & 1:1 cars. I would rather have something that I'm not afraid to drive (or wreck). The newer cars are easily replaced. There are a handfull of additional reasons why I would prefer a new 1:1 car over an old one. I don't care what brand. They all make something that I like. (Ford Mustang, Chevy Corvette, the Dodge Challenger, the Nissan 350Z, Acura NSX, ect... I also like all kinds of slotcars. Each one has something to offer.

I also like the updated versions of the old 1:1 cars. They run & handle better than the originals. If I had the space and the money to collect just for show, I might like to have some originals (both slots & 1:1s). I would still want to run them every once in a while. After all, that's what they were made for.


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## 41-willys (Jan 7, 2000)

_I am going to run both the originals and and repops. I bought them because I like them and they look good going around the track._


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## 1scalevolvo (Feb 5, 2004)

sethndaddy said:


> I like to mix and match some parts and get some frankencars. there both great.
> But to answer the original question, In a heartbeat I would buy a johnny lightning repop for 3 or 4 dollars as opposed to shelling out 130.00 or so for a brown nomad.



I would also like to add that a lot of us regular Joe's just don't have the money to spend US$130.00 on a little plastic car & in many cases our track manager's would have our heads on a plate if we did.With Bills, Mortgages,credit balance's & for our less fortunate compadre's ,alimony & child support,not all of us can plunk $ 1000.00 or more for a handfull of little HO cars. Johnny lightning, AW, Dash & the assorted crew of resincasters (that includes yours truly) are a Godsend to those who want to collect the slotcars we missed due to past toys being outgrown & thrown out,given away, abandoned during a move or just plain missed.


See ya' at tomorrows show,
Neal :dude:


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## A/FX Nut (May 28, 2004)

When I started collecting and racing back in 1997 I was excited about the shows and small companies making it possible to get cars, original and reproductions. 

I went to my first show in 1998 and recieved (sticker shock) when I saw the prices of an original Aurora Chargers, Willys, and Mustangs, T-Jets. 

Road Race Replicas sold the kits $25.00, and chassies $5.00. $30.00 a car. Not an unreasonable price. At the time.

Then in 1999 came Model Motoring $20.00 Willys, Mustangs, and Camaros with the chassies to boot.

Then the Johnny Lightning Pullbacks, Chargers, Willys, and Mustangs. $2.99 at Meijer stores. You could still get chassies Tjet or Tuff Ones for $5.00 to $10.00. Complete car cost was $8.00 to $12.99.

2001 and the JL complete slot cars for $10.00 to $14.00 hit the stores and shows. 

I like the reproductions because of cost. They're good quality and are plentiful. Although I think the production numbers of new cars by Auto World should be doubled.

I think the prices of the originals have been affected. I think the Willys, Mustang, and Camaro body prices have dropped somewhat. But Chassies prices have gone up. Original Tuff Ones NOS are just about gone. I saw some at the 1st Chicago Show (Mr. Coney) in October for $25.00 a piece.

I still like the originals, but I look for good deals. And they're out there if you look. Randy.


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## SplitPoster (May 16, 2006)

Oh Volvo 1:1

Haven't bought a lot of slot car stuff this fall either- mortgage, medical bills, child's college tuition come first. No slot car shows within 800 miles, so I save on gas and the admission charge too. 

Favorite finds: a very good original T jet Alfa for $30. Wings and paint near perfect. 
3 original '70's AFX cars with most of 2 1/2 chassis for $3. Some careful cleaning and polishing, a little repair, some engine parts, a guide pin, and tires out of the bin, and except for one bumper I still have to source, they all look very nice. 2 could be shelf queens.

Some may fan the "new" vs. "original" flames and get plenty of response, but the "big spender" vs. "us normal guys" stuff makes me laugh. The last 7 cars I bought (my total purchases since last August) add up to $65 including those listed above. Nothing close to new, all now very presentable. Average cost, that's cheaper than RRR, MEV, or even AW. I take some consolation that if I want to sell or trade for something else what I've got is always going to be worth at least what I paid for it. (I still want an Aurora Torino). 

AFX/nut is right all kinds of good deals are out there, I guess patience is part of it. I personally can't get excited about the whole new release thing, and I don't need a complete set and one in every color or to be the first on my block like some do. To each his own, but don't stereotype.


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