# Realistic Slot Car Track



## A/GS (Jul 10, 2014)

I've always thought plastic slot car track didn't look very much like the surface of race tracks. It's not even very good at representing the good old two lane blacktop. The track isn't wide enough; and it would be nice if skid marks were applied. The color is off as well. Wouldn't it be great if the sand track was actually the color of real sand. Is there a real reason why most of the track is completely flat ? It would be nice if the track surface was molded to represent the various elevations, etc. in race courses and road surfaces. What do you think ?


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## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

I would reiterate the same theory that I have mentioned about many other questions involving why manufacturers "DON'T" do this or that.
because it is simply too expensive.
bottom line.
what is the profit margin.
DASH Dan seems to be the only hobbiest willing to stick his neck out and create toys for big boys that meet desired specs.
his bodies have proven to be greatly desirable. now, why not ask Dan what his profit margins are and then ask an accountant if that meets the criteria of any industry.
Dan sought out financial backing from quite a few for the chassis and only a couple forked over capital. if his bodies had been a big enough money maker.profit margin, he would not have likely been willing to share the profits on the chassis.

it is amazing how such a thought provoking question can be easily answered with a minimal amount of thought effort..

now for all the other answers .................................................


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## Bubba 123 (Sep 10, 2010)

alpink said:


> I would reiterate the same theory that I have mentioned about many other questions involving why manufacturers "DON'T" do this or that.
> because it is simply too expensive.
> bottom line.
> what is the profit margin.
> ...


I have often "Wondered" about why the off-road tracks by Aurora didn't look
"Realistic"... 
LL seems to have done them better & Ninco (1/32 -1/24 scale)
looks even better... I have an Aurora dune-buggy track set & and 2"Realistically-Colored" Eldon 1/32 Dune Buggy track sets...

depending on the Brand U buy, "Hills", "Dips" & "High/Low Sides" come @ NO extra $$ :freak:

then, I have 2 agree w/ Al... no $$, No Make.......

I'm guessing "That's" w/ the Routed-Track Industry is for (???)

just a question; (Joe, could U put this in the right-thread area 4 me please??)

anyone have a Small LL off-road track (all dirt or sand color)...
to trade 4 an Aurora figure "8" ??? sorry the "Dunes" are gone & so is the transformer (may it Rest-In-Peace .. )
have the "Risers" for the overhead trestle, & power-anywhere terminal plate.. 
Just a wonder'n 
PM me...

Bubba 123 :wave:


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## slotcarman12078 (Oct 3, 2008)

Go back to it's roots Terry. Simpler times, and kid's that were able to fill in the blanks with their imaginations. The manufacturers thought they were way ahead of the curve by having 1/8 curves for track choices. Junction turn offs, service road turn offs added to the selection. Those added complexity to layout ideas. You have to keep in mind, when this whole HO slot craze started (not talking slots themselves, as they were already around in large format...) it was marketed as a child's toy, and it was considered a game! 

As Al points out, manufacturing costs were a huge consideration. Aurora never dreamed that 50 years later, their slot cars would still be in use. Remember, by the 70's, they were stuck with a surplus of T Jet chassis and had to get creative to try to get rid of them. The AFX and then Magnatraction were the latest and greatest. That's when stuff like snowmobiles popped up. 

As far as track color goes, see paragraph 1. Kids didn't care. Close was close enough. Faller, on the other hand, did a great job of picking up the ball and running way past what Aurora did. Their track selection included grey colored sections, had berms, had add ons like light poles, and the curve and turn off choices were crazy cool! Maybe it had to do with purist HO train types here rejecting Aurora's initial concept of slots being a train accessory due to scale variances... 

By the way, there is a reason why Viberators and T Jets are scaled as they are. You need to go back to the Playcraft days, and cross the Atlantic. Playcraft was a British company, and the small scale that dominated the market there wasn't HO.. 00 was the preferred scale (1:76 and was run on HO scale track) so that's the approximate scale Derek Brand chose to model the cars to. When Aurora bought the rights, they simply carried on as they were already being made. Once racing became the dominant factor in slots (the 70's) scale didn't matter so much, so they bumped closer to 1/64.

The reason Faller was able to push the envelope IMHO was scale variances were mostly overlooked by kids in their marketing area, and the train guys loved it. The market demanded more realistic looking track, more track choices, and more reliable connections and Faller gave it to them. I believe Faller is still limited to 1/8 curves, but I could be wrong (it's happened plenty of times before).


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## tasman (Feb 17, 2007)

I often wondered why HO track did not get wider when the predominate size of the cars changed to closer to 1/64 scale in the early 70's. If new track was made wide enough that inside and outside borders were not needed, I would replace my layout with it.

I understand the economics of why it wasn't done, just wish it would have been done. 

As far as appearance, how could anything look realistic with a slot and 2 pieces of metal running down the middle of each lane.:tongue:


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## Paul R (Nov 3, 2009)

I guess if you are looking to create a realistic road course, irregularities, etc are desired. I prefer a clean smooth flat surface to race on. Adding the details of a real road might be a problem for cars that rely on the firmness of the tires for suspension.


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## A/GS (Jul 10, 2014)

Paul R said:


> I guess if you are looking to create a realistic road course, irregularities, etc are desired. I prefer a clean smooth flat surface to race on. Adding the details of a real road might be a problem for cars that rely on the firmness of the tires for suspension.


Of course your correct about the flatness of the plastic track Paul R; I meant small deviations in track height and angle of track surface to more replicate a real racing course; that and color of the track as well as small touches such as skid marks being added. Tasman is right about the slot itself as well as metal rails; but they are necessary and you can go too far with anything in the replication of realism. I can't see how the changes I suggested Al would add to the cost of the track sections; and if they did the difference should be negligible . The rest is just using a more realistic color. It's simply a matter of using a different mold for variation on track sections. Aurora did this with the bump and bridge sections to add variety. I always thought Lionel's track looked odd using 3 rails; I've never seen railroad track with 3 rails. If you were not using the cars for racing; but just to run with a model railroad the Faller track system would be ideal. A wire under the track to allow for a slotless track; and the vehicles drive all over the road surface. As well they stop at rail crossings; or anywhere, and then proceed on. Works great for buses to stop at various places to pick up passengers. I have the same thing with the TomyTec N scale bus system. It's fun to watch; as well as add realism to a train layout. As always a very insightful post Joe.


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## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

" I can't see how the changes I suggested Al would add to the cost of the track sections; and if they did the difference should be negligible:

back to step one. you admit that you don't know or understand tooling costs.
this has been discussed in great depth on many threads that you have either started or participated in.
there fore, without the ability to understand or the refusal thereof, explaining again that tooling costs go against profit margins is really a waste of time.
you have said, again, that it doesn't matter to you what the costs are, you expect manufacturers to meet your requirements, wishes and demands.

so, I suggest YOU produce the product in the way you desire and we shall decide whether to buy it.

I have been told that arguing with stupid people makes ME look stupid.
could be!


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## A/GS (Jul 10, 2014)

" depending on the Brand U buy, " Hills " & " High / low Sides come @ NO extra $$ :freak: " Very well put Pete; much better than I wrote in my dubious attempt to present my point. :thumbsup:


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## A/GS (Jul 10, 2014)

alpink said:


> " I can't see how the changes I suggested Al would add to the cost of the track sections; and if they did the difference should be negligible:
> 
> back to step one. you admit that you don't know or understand tooling costs.
> this has been discussed in great depth on many threads that you have either started or participated in.
> ...


Good suggestion Al; I'll get on that right away. I'll contact the factory in HK and have them producing track ASAP. Tooling ? What the heck is that ? If it costs more money ... then forget about it ! Why is everything so complicated ??? :freak:


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## A/GS (Jul 10, 2014)

By the way Al, if tooling costs are so preventative to production; why do they bother making various radius sections of track ? How come Aurora was able to produce " bump " , " bridge " and various other sections of track ? I guess that's what put them out of business isn't it. If tooling costs are so high why bother injection molding anything to begin with ? It's not that I don't understand tooling costs Al; I'm just not buying into that lame old excuse for not producing product. Maybe as you insinuate I am stupid Al, that being the case it only provides intelligent folks such as yourself the opportunity to appear even smarter. Thanks for your insight into my intellectual faults Al I really appreciate it. BFF, .... Terry  :wave:


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## Rich Dumas (Sep 3, 2008)

By 1966 Aurora had sold 35 MILLION T-Jets, that is in just three years. At the rate that HO cars sell today it would take a VERY long time to sell that many cars. The hobby was a lot bigger in the '60's, you could introduce a new product and get your investment back quickly. Today if you are not very careful you would lose money on a new product.
As far as the track itself goes you can paint it to simulate seams, cracks and patches. Aftermarket tracks can be wider than standard HO track, MaxTrax have very wide lane spacing for example.


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## A/GS (Jul 10, 2014)

" you expect manufactures to meet your requirements, wishes, and demands " Absolutely, and rightfully so ....this is what every consumer on earth expects when purchasing any product. Those that refuse to do so; don't last long in business. Consumers will turn to those that do meet their requirements. The consumer has the right to only purchase what they like. Some people don't understand how a business is supposed to operate. Instead they compromise and take whatever is available. Companies want to make a profit; the consumer is the one with the power to make .... or break them.


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## A/GS (Jul 10, 2014)

Rich Dumas said:


> By 1966 Aurora had sold 35 MILLION T-Jets, that is in just three years. At the rate that HO cars sell today it would take a VERY long time to sell that many cars. The hobby was a lot bigger in the '60's, you could introduce a new product and get your investment back quickly. Today if you are not very careful you would lose money on a new product.
> As far as the track itself goes you can paint it to simulate seams, cracks and patches. Aftermarket tracks can be wider than standard HO track, MaxTrax have very wide lane spacing for example.


 " Today if you are not very careful you would lose money on a new product " No business is guaranteed success; it's a gamble to make money. Bringing out new product is simply a part of that process. Huge companies go under all the time like Pan Am, American Airlines, American Motors, etc. others lose Billions on bad ideas: New Coke, RCA selectavision video disc system. Life's a gamble. Now Sony's on life support' with only Playstation making a profit.


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## Boosted-Z71 (Nov 26, 2007)

I can speak a little on tooling costs from 20+ years experience as a tooling designer to a tooling supervisor in a shop working for a major automotive mfg. 

I have designed the simplest of molds, made from aluminum, and with a very limited life/part capability to the very large & complex 4 to 32 cavity molds where every piece in the mold was hardened, coated, cooled with water etc and these tools were built to run parts in the millions of pieces, at very strict tolerances. 

The costs for such tooling range from $3K for the aluminum unit to well over $700K for materials and labor, and that only paid for the tool build, not time or material for producing parts, mold maintenance, repair to the mold etc. 

And trust me you put your mold into the molding machine and 1 tiny error on machine setup or operation and once it closes you can have a big steel pile of junk in seconds. 

So tooling costs have always been and still are very high, many times that is why you only get part variety A or maybe with an insert change you get A & B parts. Inserts for part change are generally extremely expensive.

China hit the tooling market maybe 10+ years ago, cutting tool build costs in half and maybe more, but quality was awful. Many times tools struggled to make promised production run quantities, and the cavity blocks & inserts were so poor quality steel, that welding on them for repair was out of the question, many times the cavities cracked after any attempt to weld on them, and the problems went on & on. 

So for the expense of tooling, every added feature you ask for on the part is an additional cost, maybe not so much in terms of plastic in the end part, but in the tooling cost to produce the feature. 

Many people not associated with the tooling / MFG industry have no clue as to what it takes to produce a simple slot or hole in a surface perpendicular to a parting line, many times the totally custom cams, slides and gear driven entities it takes to get the feature are nothing short of works of art themselves, and generally never seen or thought about by the public. 

Boosted


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## kriket (Feb 15, 2013)

the market is so soft when it comes to this hobby the amount of sales of a product in the market place does not justify the tooling cost. Just not enough profit to be made if there is any profit at all. If this was 60 years ago then there would be more of a market for that sort of product, but this hobby is a dying hobby at least for the HO scale.it seems the little cottage industry is barely keeping it alive... look at tyco they are not making slot cars or track anymore, and i think life like is also out of the picture as well. Oh and not to mention the economy is bad right now , and theres not many people out there with disposible income like they used to have anymore


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## slotcarman12078 (Oct 3, 2008)

One other point, regarding bump and bridge tracks, and the problem with them. Back in the 60's, those tracks provided a little variety in the mix, but in reality were kinda duds. No traction tires coupled with drastic elevation changes made them more of a novelty (like loops) that didn't perform well, or added more challenge than the cars and the kids driving them could handle. Those added details helped a little from the modeling perspective, but once racing took over, they were the first to collect dust in the unused track pile. 

By the time AFX came around, the chassis were kinda too low to be used with them. The mistake Aurora made with the hill and bump tracks is they should have been made spread out on a 15" track instead of a 9"er, or even better split into 2 parts with 2 9" sections. 

Why they didn't make the track wider when AFX came out is a question with no answer. The cars got wider, the chassis did too. It would have made sense to do the same with the track.


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## A/GS (Jul 10, 2014)

Boosted-Z71 said:


> I can speak a little on tooling costs from 20+ years experience as a tooling designer to a tooling supervisor in a shop working for a major automotive mfg.
> 
> I have designed the simplest of molds, made from aluminum, and with a very limited life/part capability to the very large & complex 4 to 32 cavity molds where every piece in the mold was hardened, coated, cooled with water etc and these tools were built to run parts in the millions of pieces, at very strict tolerances.
> 
> ...


That being the case it's a good thing the Chinese have taken over the tooling business; because the U.S. costs were over inflated beyond belief. Along with over inflated claims of superior quality; comes over inflated prices. HO slots are made in Hong Kong and Singapore; and have been for quite some time. There appears to be no problem with the quality of the product they produce. In fact they produce most consumer products available today. The military contractors charge insane amounts for equipment that doesn't perform as stated; or is out of service half the time. A good example of the absurd costs is a coffee maker that costs $ 20,000. Made to survive a crash; while the crew of a B-52 wouldn't.


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## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

A/GS said:


> That being the case it's a good thing the Chinese have taken over the tooling business; because the U.S. costs were over inflated beyond belief. Along with over inflated claims of superior quality; comes over inflated prices. HO slots are made in Hong Kong and Singapore; and have been for quite some time. There appears to be no problem with the quality of the product they produce. In fact they produce most consumer products available today. The military contractors charge insane amounts for equipment that doesn't perform as stated; or is out of service half the time. A good example of the absurd costs is a coffee maker that costs $ 20,000. Made to survive a crash; while the crew of a B-52 wouldn't.


such a fount of info and facts.
I am fascinated.


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## kriket (Feb 15, 2013)

b-52? military? coffee maker? I thought this was about slot cars.


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## A/GS (Jul 10, 2014)

alpink said:


> such a fount of info and facts.
> I am fascinated.


I know a little about everything; and a lot about nothing.


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## A/GS (Jul 10, 2014)

kriket said:


> b-52? military? coffee maker? I thought this was about slot cars.


If you don't think about it much; it makes perfect sense


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## kriket (Feb 15, 2013)

A/GS said:


> I know a little about everything; and a lot about nothing.


I know little about nothing and alot about everything. I would admit when im wrong when and if that day ever comes...lol


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## super8man (Jan 29, 2013)

the track doesn't have to be wider, it simply needs to be sunk into a piece of MDF just like they show in my Aurora Handbook.


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## A/GS (Jul 10, 2014)

super8man said:


> the track doesn't have to be wider, it simply needs to be sunk into a piece of MDF just like they show in my Aurora Handbook.


Sounds like a good idea to me.


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## Boosted-Z71 (Nov 26, 2007)

You only know what you know, the only way to add to that is ones' willingness to learn, now back to slot cars. 

Its pretty easy to find a routed track, there have been many for sale between here and E-bay over the past several months, its an investment, but well worth it, if you enjoy the hobby. Plastic track can be made to run & look just as well, look for threads by Downtown Deco, he has an amazing realistic track and I think he is building another now.

Boosted


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## A/GS (Jul 10, 2014)

Boosted-Z71 said:


> You only know what you know, the only way to add to that is ones' willingness to learn, now back to slot cars.
> 
> Its pretty easy to find a routed track, there have been many for sale between here and E-bay over the past several months, its an investment, but well worth it, if you enjoy the hobby. Plastic track can be made to run & look just as well, look for threads by Downtown Deco, he has an amazing realistic track and I think he is building another now.
> 
> Boosted


Thanks Boosted-Z71, .... Terry


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## tasman (Feb 17, 2007)

In a recent poll on HT A/GS indicated that he thought there were over 100,000 people active in the HO slot car hobby in North America. So he probably feels the potential market and potential sales are big enough to absorb tooling costs for new products or variations on current products.

I do not agree, but that poll did show some interesting results as to the wide opinion of how big the hobby is.


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## noddaz (Aug 6, 1999)

*all good points of course...*

So let's toss something else into the mix...

If anyone would have made sectional 4 lane track back in the day... :lol:

"If", being the key word. 

Continue the discussion...

Scott


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## Rich Dumas (Sep 3, 2008)

I think that Strombecker made sectional three lane track back in the day. If you want sectional four or six lane track today there is MaxTrax or Wizzard.
Most aftermarket tracks are one or two pieces and can be difficult to move, let alone ship. Years ago I had a chance to get a 4X12 foot Bucktrack at a really good price, but I knew that I could not get it down into my basement. I ended up with a 4X16 foot MaxTrax. The Bucktrack changed hands several times before one of the HOCOC guys got it.
100,000 people active in the hobby? Possibly, but the hobby is quite diverse. There are collectors, modellers, casual runners and diehard racers. Some reople run by themselves or with friends on a casual basis, other people will travel a great distance to attend an organized race. Each segment has somewhat different needs, so the same product is not likely to appeal to everyone.
I try to recruit new members for both a 1/32nd and HO club with little sucess. I know people are out there. I do testing for Super Tires and I speak to the owner on a regular basis. He once told me that he has sold over a million tires. Years ago his his father asked him who was buying all of those tires and he replied the he didn't know.


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## super8man (Jan 29, 2013)

I would not make sense to make 4-lane sectional track since very few people would actively choose to buy it except for families like the Brady Bunch and that's only after they merged their families. Everyone else would buy 2-lane track and simply expand to four lanes with wider radius curves as needed. You might say the evolution of the sectional track back in the day was the most efficient business decision that still helps people to this day. 

And, if you investigate Atlas and Lionel slot car track, you realise the limitations of Aurora Lock and Joiner track. Specifically, since the track only joins with rail connector sleeves, you can slip the tracks by one lane and create any kind of track you want. Check out this Atlas track as an example. Pay particular attention to the single lanes next to the cross overs. Sheer genius!


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## beast1624 (Mar 28, 2009)

Steve at RaceMasters said on the other forum about 3 years ago they were planning to do some dark gray Tomy track maybe in a set to test interest. He talked some about it and why the lane spacing wasn't changed here:

http://www.slotcarillustrated.com/portal/forums/showpost.php?p=591329&postcount=12

Here he gave an updated timeline. Looks like not before 2015 now for a different color:

http://www.slotcarillustrated.com/portal/forums/showpost.php?p=783939&postcount=141

Seems the reasons for the delays & no major changes are the ones everyone has already stated as well as their China factory going bankrupt as mentioned in other posts. Looks like right now they are struggling to get cars and sets out to retailers. Hopefully they will be able to get back to working on some of the new stuff like gray track and borders soon.


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## slotcardan (Jun 9, 2012)

.........


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