# AMPs on a stock 27t motor at 2.0v?



## Widdy (Apr 11, 2004)

Ok guys got a question for you all.

Running a short track where drive line is around 100 ft +/- a few feet.
Lap times are average 4.50 sec 5 min race.
Revenge of the Monster
and P2k2

What would be a good AMP run on a CE turbo 30 at 2.0 volts for this track?


----------



## DynoMoHum (Sep 25, 2001)

I don't put any faith or trust in amp numbers that a motor pulls with no load on it. Some people do, most who do tend to feel the more the better...

I personaly feel that the number of amps can vary a great deal from one good motor to another and therefore it really doesn't tell you anything in perticular.


----------



## hankster (Jan 1, 1998)

Want a lot of amps? Just bind up the motor


----------



## me21 (Nov 7, 2003)

Amp draw can get you in the right direstion, Only if you know nothing is binding...
Monster's i like to see between 7.0-11.00 amps at 2 V, That will get you in the ball park, Anything lower either bad brushes or bad magnets, anything higher and it is either binding or something just isn't right


----------



## hankster (Jan 1, 1998)

My comment was a followup to Dyno's answer on one reason why you can not put much faith in amp numbers. Problem is, there is no way to "know" that nothing is binding. In me's case, you could have a 5 amp motor that is binding and it would give you 10.5 amps... the amp numbers look great but the motor would run like crap.


----------



## patcollins (Sep 29, 2001)

Fastest stock motor I ever had was a P2K that only drew 3 amps at 2 volts. 

I did some tests a few years back trying to correlate no load amp draw vs the performance that a motor gave on my Robitronic dyno and I got a fairly weak correlation, then I abondoned that as a viable method of checking motors.


----------



## burbs (Apr 21, 2002)

my two best monster stocks pull 12-13 amps.. Nothing binds on them either... they pull between 68-72 on the fantom on anu given day....

i use straight 767 brushes...

and they run like mad on the track


----------



## jonnycash (Feb 10, 2005)

Short Oval Racing? Why Are You Running A High Rpm Motor? You Should Be Running G3 Or Epic 2 Mag. I Race 1/10 Oval Flat Track The Fastest Cars Run Those Motors, Ive Tried Monsters But You Cant Get The Tourque Out Of The Turns With Them.


----------



## SlipNSlide (Jul 6, 2004)

The only good dyno is the track.

When I find a good motor I then put them on a Motor Checker and write down all the info.

I then note the brushes, springs and keep track of my runs.

With that information and the motor checker I can keep a good motor going but I still have yet to find out what a good motor is without purchasing one from EddieO or Putnam.

Maybe its just me, but using BigJim's Blackbook is not enough to get the same performance I can get from EddieO or Putnam out of the box.

If someone has some other secrets that do not involve a real dyno, I would love to know


----------



## erock1331 (Apr 1, 2002)

jonnycash said:


> Short Oval Racing? Why Are You Running A High Rpm Motor? You Should Be Running G3 Or Epic 2 Mag. .


Sorry but have to correct you here, an Epic 2 magnet has more RPM and less torque than a Monster.
It has 4 less laminations on the Stack so it is lighter than a Monster arm = more RPM

I have been using the Monsters for 4 years now and the Epic for about a half year, and every dyno pull in those years a Monster has more torque.
Now there are instances where a Monster with a small com might have more RPM than en Epic 2 magnet, but if you look at the 18-26 amp numbers the epic always has higher rpm than a Monster.


----------



## erock1331 (Apr 1, 2002)

oh and getting back to the original question, only thing I use amp draw to check is how good the brushes are.
If my motor always pulls say 9 amps at 2v no fan and I put a set in after a fresh cut and they only pull 5 amps then I know something is up with the brush.
I throw them out and start over with a new set.


----------



## Slider (Dec 7, 2003)

erock1331. I agree with you method.it is easyier to weed out a bad brush that way.and we all know we don't get any bad ones.LOL.


----------



## Widdy (Apr 11, 2004)

Slider , if thats the case i have alot of bad brushes then LOL. One of these days i'm going to find the right brush. Who makes the better brush? I use the putmans and the 767's.


----------



## The Jet (Sep 25, 2001)

Uhhhhh, a "MONSTER" _*is*_ an "EPIC".


----------



## erock1331 (Apr 1, 2002)

Jet
If we want to get critical a Monster is actually a Trinity motor.
But most use Trinity and Epic synonimously which I can see why they are both owned by Ernie.

Most everyone has been using the name "Epic" to refer to the Epic Roar Stock motor.
Which is a different motor than the Monster. Monster has 40 lams and the Epic Roar stock 36 lams.


----------



## The Jet (Sep 25, 2001)

LOL, 
Monster, Binary, Binary 2, P2K, P2K2, Green machine, Paradox, whatever the motor, they ALL have "EPIC" stamped on the can...They're ALL Trinity motors, they just have different arm configurations.

"I've been using the monsters for 4 years now and the "EPIC" for about a half year"

I believe your just talking about the sticker on the can, right??? That can cause some confusion.

Later, Bret


----------



## erock1331 (Apr 1, 2002)

The Jet said:


> LOL,
> Monster, Binary, Binary 2, P2K, P2K2, Green machine, Paradox, whatever the motor, they ALL have "EPIC" stamped on the can...They're ALL Trinity motors, they just have different arm configurations.


Agreed



The Jet said:


> "I've been using the monsters for 4 years now and the "EPIC" for about a half year"
> I believe your just talking about the sticker on the can, right??? That can cause some confusion.
> Later, Bret


Just so I dont confuse anyone.
Between Monsters and Epic Roar Stocks:

Yes the sticker on the can is different, one has a dragon looking thing on the sticker, the other just says "epic".

They both are Epic/Trinity brand motors.

The can and the magnets they use are the same just one is painted green and the other a gold/tan color

The arms are different


----------



## jonnycash (Feb 10, 2005)

Judging by the pull i get off the turns on the short flat oval i race on, the moster doesn't have as much tourque. I can stuff my car in harder and pull off quicker w/ the epic than i can a monster. And the epic will handle a higher rollout. Maybe I'm doing something wrong with the monster, or right with the epic but thats what i have found. I don't know if it matters, but our class of racing requires us to only use race-prep R brushes, and 6 cell 3300's.


----------



## DynoMoHum (Sep 25, 2001)

Lets just say that EPIC/Trinity has confused us all by first selling all EPIC stuff under the Trinity name, and then more recently started selling stuff under both the Trinity and EPIC names... My understanding is that EPIC originaly was the importing branch of Ernie's company... and now he's decided to expand the use of the 'EPIC' name/label... 

Generaly speaking... the amount of torque vs. RPM a stock motor puts out, has very little baring on how fast it might go, or how it will feel in the corners vs. the straights... If you gear two differnt motors correctly, the torque and RPM at the wheels will be very simmilar wether your using a GM3, a Monster, or a 'EPIC' stock motor... Now for some reason, it seems that the higher RPM motors keep allowing racers to go faster and faster, regardless of the fact that they have less torque, and generaly have simmilar overall power output... 

One of my theorys about why the higher RPM motors keep setting track records is that they tend to cool themselves better, allowing them to run slightly better over the course of a full race distance.


----------



## erock1331 (Apr 1, 2002)

DynoMoHum said:


> One of my theorys about why the higher RPM motors keep setting track records is that they tend to cool themselves better, allowing them to run slightly better over the course of a full race distance.


I'll buy that Dynomohum.

My thinking is the higher the RPM = the lower the rollout.
Even though you lose torque, By lowering the rollout you still get pull off the turns but the high RPM carries the speed in the straights. Not the most high tech theory but common sense seems to make sense.

I know some guys swear by High powered torque motors and once you find that ultimate gear factor that you can gear any motor based off that factor and it should run the same on the track. If this was the case oval guys would still be running P2Ks cause they are perhaps the most powerful stocker on my dyno at 18-26A where I feel stock motors run at. I know Big Jim G, has done alot of testing and he agrees the P2K is the most powerful stocker available.

To prove that theory wrong I took 2 motors
1 Epic roar stock 126 watts (96w @ 18-26A) and a P2K with 126 watts (111w @ 18-26A). So max power was equal but the P2K had alot more in the 18-26A range.
I knew where the Epic needed to be geared to be fast on the track.
I took the RPM from my Epic Roar stock motor and did the RPM equation and used it to see where the P2K should be geared (according to my calculations about 7-8 teeth higher)
I strapped the P2K in and lost 2 tenths the entire run each lap.
Epic ran 4.2's and ended on 4.6's
P2K ran 4.3's and ended on 4.8's (car about 2 minutes in just felt like I deployed a parachute)
The P2K never got hot so I dont think I missed the gearing on it.
Who knows...LOL


----------



## Todd Putnam (Mar 4, 1999)

Here's my take on amp draw...
More amps *does not* equal more power.

Amp draw is useful in determining the condition of a motor, brushes, comm, etc.
Example: if you have a motor that pulls 8.5 amps when it is race ready, (has just been cut, brushes broekn in properly, etc you can determine it's condition by monitoring the amp draw after the run. Also, if it is consistently pulling 8.5 amps when race ready, and you rebuild it and it pulls less, the brushes aren't properly seated. _This doesn't mean you have a bad brush(es),_ just that they aren't seated properly. Take them out, look at the face...you'll easily determine the problem. 

I don't suggest building a motor that pulls more than 9-9.5 amps,(@ 2 volts w/ a 2" fan). It may be fast up front, but isn't needed to run fast for an entire race. Higher amp draw motors will run fast, but may fall off late in the run. 
Remember, we race for 4-5 minutes, not just the duration of the dyno pull...:thumbsup: 

Hope this helps,
Todd Putnam
Putnam Propulsion
518-452-0422


----------



## OVAL4EVER (Jan 17, 2002)

Jet to back up erock and fact here...the acctual name of the motor is "epic roar stock" this came about because in the motor's origonal configuration it looked very similar, but had quad magnets, and was called the "binary"trinity/epic sort of pulled a boner and went into production before they attempted getting roar's approval for the new motor which bent more than just the 2 magnet limit rule...ROAR said..NO...the motor was then re-fitted with a single standard pair of magnets and other legit part and was rename, the "epic roar stock" to avoid concufion at the sales counter as to which motor was a legal motor under roar rules, and it is sold under the trinity name.
In short EROCK is 100% correct. 
in addition every motor trinity has sold with the exception of a select few low end mods, and very old stockers, of an exoctic nature have bore the epic name on the can and endbell, which has nothing to do with the nomenclature of the motor in question sir.

As for amp draaw to determine conditon and strength of the motor, I have not has good luck in reling on amp draw for this.
I have had great monsters draw well under 6 amps, and crappy ones draw over 12 amps, and vice versa, with no noticable difference in freedom of movement.
specific amp value tables obtained from the fantom dyno software has proved usefull to me though


----------



## The Jet (Sep 25, 2001)

Funny how so many people know so much...


----------



## Mr-Tamiya (Jan 24, 2002)

The Jet said:


> Funny how so many people know so much...


LOL
:thumbsup:


----------



## Poppa Ray (Feb 1, 2004)

Does anyone else just listen to the motors when they're just breaking in the brushes? I can't afford a dyno and don't have the time to constantly build and track test motors so I go by amp draw to a degree and I just listen for that high rpm note and make sure it's even after a 5 minute no load break in. If it pulls high amps and doesn't sound like it's singing along nicely obviously there's a problem! I'm not the best driver but I've been asked to loan out a motor plenty of times!


----------



## The Jet (Sep 25, 2001)

Years ago I saw Putnam spin a motor on his T-30 and said "This will be a good one", I said how do you know??? He said by the sound, the way it spun up sounded good, and sure enough it was fast.

So, yes I believe you can get a good idea by sound and amp draw combined :thumbsup: 

Later, Bret


----------



## Mr-Tamiya (Jan 24, 2002)

Poppa Ray said:


> Does anyone else just listen to the motors when they're just breaking in the brushes?


Yes as a matter fact! I build all my motors by sound(not the only thing though and not at only high RPM either) I learned the listening thing from "Alex" the motor man(god rest his soul) from PARMA years and years ago, When i used to run their motors in my 12th scale, he tuned all of them for me at the big races(most of which being the top gun serioes back in the late 80's and very early 90's) and it was all by ear, running them on his IQ senior!


----------

