# Sticky  1/350 TOS Enterprise Building Tips and Tricks.



## ClubTepes

Since everyone who is getting a 1/350 Enterprise is starting their own thread, we're quickly going to have a ton of threads going on regarding the same subject.

I'm starting this thread in the hopes that the mods will make it sticky and have it serve as a single source for tips and tricks in building this Enterprise kit.

So off the top of my head, here are a couple a quick notes to get everyone started.

#1. If you plan to light your model, wash the INSIDE of the kit as well as the outside before assembly. Give yourself a good clean surface for the LED ribbon to stick to.

#2. The 'toothy' texture that Model Man Tom referred to on the primary saucer is easily rectified if you don't like it. Before assembly, I suggest a light coat of either Tamiya Fine Primer or the Mr. Surfacer fine primer. (Any 'fine grit' primer should do)
Use a fine sanding pad (I found these 1,800 to 20,000 grit pads somewhere) go over the surface until you get rid of most of the primer.
I did this to one of the test shots and got it ga-ga-ga-LASS smooth.
This primer step also helps to illuminate any possible sink marks.
Don't spay too heavily or you might obscure a grid line.

#3. Use a solvent based model glue. Especially on the nacelle struts and their surrounding components. Any glue that binds based on 'surface tension' like 'epoxy' can pop off the plastic.

#4. When gluing the nacelle struts, compress them on a flat table with a board and a couple of books on top. This guarantees that there is no twist from over zealous taping.

#5. The compression rings on the nacelles are made as rings so there is no seam to sand. However, if you mess up an edge when removing them from the sprue, don't worry. The rings aren't 'keyed' so you can simply spin the ring to hide any mistake under one of the three boxes under the front of the nacelle.

I'm looking forward to seeing others tips.


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## Opus Penguin

Yep ... need a sticky on this subject. I am thankful for tip #2, that information will help me. I don't have my kit yet but will make a final decision on the gridline issue when it comes. From other posts, it sounds like it isn't that bad. I do plan on using photoetch, but I don't plan to light the nacelle trenches. I do plan to allow the impulse to light but as a separate unit. I am looking at adding a sound box to play music from the show and hope to be able to add a variable speed for the bussard domes, and include the power up sound of the engines to coincide with the fan blade speed.


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## ClubTepes

^^^^ If you get the engine sound effect to coincide with the fan motor.....please share.


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## GSaum

ClubTepes said:


> ^^^^ If you get the engine sound effect to coincide with the fan motor.....please share.


Yeah, this is going to be a tricky one. I've been racking my brain trying to figure out how best to "muffle" the sound. I really don't want so much as a whisper coming from the kit. If the motors prove to be loud, we'll have to share our thoughts on deadening the noise. Were one to use some sort of "insulation" to quiet the sound, I can already see issues in regard to the space inside nacelle and the fact that any motor should have adequate airflow so as not to overheat. I figured that by the time I get around to building mine, the more experience modelers will have come up with a solution. Fingers crossed!


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## tardis1916

I remember someone posting a thread a while back when putting motors in the 1:1000 scale enterprise and said the following motor worked well.

http://www.pololu.com/catalog/product/1096

I'm not sure how noisey they are but I'm thinkning of picking up a couple to find out.


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## Nova Designs

Put your speakers inside the nacelles, that way the warp engine sound should blend with the motors and help hide the sounds!


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## Opus Penguin

tardis1916 said:


> I remember someone posting a thread a while back when putting motors in the 1:1000 scale enterprise and said the following motor worked well.
> 
> http://www.pololu.com/catalog/product/1096
> 
> I'm not sure how noisey they are but I'm thinkning of picking up a couple to find out.


I used one of these motors in a medical scanner:






Hard to tell from the video as I added the sound effect to the device as well, but the motors are somewhat quiet. They seem quieter than the ones that will be with the light kit. I may end up going this route, and replacing the motors in the kit. However, I also want to hook up a variable speed dial to have the fan blades "power up".


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## Paulbo

To make the bussards "field repairable" do not glue the assembly in instruction step 10 into the warp engines. Instead, hold them in place with magnets and add a bit of extra wire, aka service loops, so you can get the assembly clear.

Also, domes 139 and 140 can be lightly glued in place with Micro Krystal Klear or white glue to hold them securely in place, but still make it possible to remove them for repairs.

The motor could be tacked in place with hot glue that can be picked off if necesssary.

I don't have the lighting kit so I dont know about how the windmill dome is secured in place for that option.


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## ClubTepes

Paulbo said:


> To make the bussards "field repairable" do not glue the assembly in instruction step 10 into the warp engines. Instead, hold them in place with magnets and add a bit of extra wire, aka service loops, so you can get the assembly clear.
> 
> Also, domes 139 and 140 can be lightly glued in place with Micro Krystal Klear or white glue to hold them securely in place, but still make it possible to remove them for repairs.
> 
> The motor could be tacked in place with hot glue that can be picked off if necesssary.
> 
> I don't have the lighting kit so I dont know about how the windmill dome is secured in place for that option.


Nice tips Paul.
I believe (Jim correct me if I'm wrong) Jim Smalls did just that with the magnets on his WF build-up.

The fan blade domes are pressure fit.

On preceding posts, I wasn't referring to the noise of the motors as the 'engine effect' but rather the sound effects of the warp engines ramping up and down.


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## ClubTepes

tardis1916 said:


> I remember someone posting a thread a while back when putting motors in the 1:1000 scale enterprise and said the following motor worked well.
> 
> http://www.pololu.com/catalog/product/1096
> 
> I'm not sure how noisey they are but I'm thinkning of picking up a couple to find out.


Before people freak out and plan on new motors, know this.

The motor in that link has a metal gear box.
We tried a motor with a metal gear box and it was noisier than the one in the light kit.
Also, if you start hacking away in there, you might get an alignment off in some way.

I'd say, get the light kit. Look it over. 
Take it from a guy who's already built one.....it's pretty cramped in there.

Seems like efforts are better spent on sound suppression rather than throwing out the 'baby with the bath water'.

Or there is 'The devil that you know, vs. the devil that you don't'.

Lets see, what other metaphors can I come up with.......


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## Trek Ace

I'm not at all worried about any sound the motors might make. My Master Replicas _Enterprise_ (which still works perfectly) makes noise, as do the large Custom Replicas and Steve Neill models out there.

I'm much more interested in making certain that the combined visual effect of the blades, LEDs and reflective surfaces come as close to resembling the original studio model as possible.


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## John Duncan

The light kit is already available??


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## RossW

I've used the same Polulu motors as galaxy_jason did for his 1/1000 kit. They are a little bit noisy so I'm still searching for quieter motors. You can see the first attempt here:







(The LEDs will be smaller in the finished version, and will have the appropriate dispersion via the sanded bulbs/domes and reflecting material. The repeating rubbing noise is from an overuse of hot glue to keep the LED disc in place)

ClubTepes - no offense, but my engine effect will have 5 independently blinkies (with some randomization in the on/off times, different every time its powered up) and the motor will slowly spin up (hopefully to match the warp sound effect). There's also the ability to speed up or slow down the motor to get the right speed, and I can change direction of the port engine from CCW to CW and back again.


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## Ductapeforever

Powdered Graphite Lube works wonders on quieting motors and is 5 time slicker than WD-40, if you can imagine that ! Graphite is 'DRY' also so no oily residue.

Available on the Pinewood Derby Car display at most fine Hobby Stores near you !


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## Lou Dalmaso

also,
don't worry about painting the fan blades..

my mask set will have black vinyl you can put in those impressions.

nice, crisp lines and no worries about getting the paint on thick enough to block the light


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## Ductapeforever

Lou Dalmaso said:


> also,
> don't worry about painting the fan blades..
> 
> my mask set will have black vinyl you can put in those impressions.
> 
> nice, crisp lines and no worries about getting the paint on thick enough to block the light




All hail the Aztec Dummie ! Hail Lou ! :thumbsup:


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## jaws62666

Lou Dalmaso said:


> also,
> don't worry about painting the fan blades..
> 
> my mask set will have black vinyl you can put in those impressions.
> 
> nice, crisp lines and no worries about getting the paint on thick enough to block the light


Mask set soon Lou?:thumbsup:


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## woof359

*glue*

are we talking Pro Weld like cement for the pylons or tube glue


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## Ductapeforever

woof359 said:


> are we talking Pro Weld like cement for the pylons or tube glue


I haven't purchased an 'Old School' tube of cement since I discovered liquid cement over a decade ago. However, I think in the case of the pylon supports ,tube cement is the perfect solution to an otherwise difficult problem. It has long drying time allowing for allignment and superior strength.


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## Nova Designs

Lou Dalmaso said:


> also,
> don't worry about painting the fan blades..
> 
> my mask set will have black vinyl you can put in those impressions.
> 
> nice, crisp lines and no worries about getting the paint on thick enough to block the light


I'm thinking I don't want mind solid black so I will probably fill the recesses with Tamiya "smoke"


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## Paulbo

Lou Dalmaso said:


> also,
> don't worry about painting the fan blades..
> 
> my mask set will have black vinyl you can put in those impressions.
> 
> nice, crisp lines and no worries about getting the paint on thick enough to block the light


Great minds think alike ... and so do ours  The PE set has little strips to drop into the indents.


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## jaws62666

Paulbo said:


> Great minds think alike ... and so do ours  The PE set has little strips to drop into the indents.


on cults site, it says your big e set has light masks for the bridge , hanger and windows. Is this correct?


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## SteveR

Now _this_ is a modeling thread! :thumbsup:


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## Nova Designs

Now that we HAVE a model! FINALLY! (THANK YOU R2!!!!) :woohoo:


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## Paulbo

jaws62666 said:


> on cults site, it says your big e set has light masks for the bridge , hanger and windows. Is this correct?


Yes, that's correct. It makes it much easier to light the bridge so that only the control panels and displays are lit.


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## woof359

*base measurment*

who can tell me the diameter of the round base ?


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## Trek Ace

While inspecting the kit, I found that the nacelle cylinders have a few sink marks on both sides along the length that will need to be puttied and sanded. Nothing major, though.




























Also, the saucer halves to not want to fit together completely. There is a consistent 3/32" gap all around the perimeter where the two halves join. It's either that the saucer top is a bit bowed up along the edges, or the structural 'wall' or 'ring' in the center of the lower saucer is a bit too tall, and prevents the saucer from closing up. In order to properly join them up, I might need to either remove that same amount from that inside ring, or heavily cement and use a lot of clamps to force the saucer halves together - or perhaps a combination of both.


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## RICHjm

7 1/2" diameter base...


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## ClubTepes

Ductapeforever said:


> I haven't purchased an 'Old School' tube of cement since I discovered liquid cement over a decade ago. However, I think in the case of the pylon supports ,tube cement is the perfect solution to an otherwise difficult problem. It has long drying time allowing for allignment and superior strength.


Thats actually what I did.


I still always keep the old tube glue on hand for times when I don't want a quick fix.


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## ClubTepes

Trek Ace said:


> While inspecting the kit, I found that the nacelle cylinders have a few sink marks on both sides along the length that will need to be puttied and sanded. Nothing major, though.
> 
> Also, the saucer halves to not want to fit together completely. There is a consistent 3/32" gap all around the perimeter where the two halves join. It's either that the saucer top is a bit bowed up along the edges, or the structural 'wall' or 'ring' in the center of the lower saucer is a bit too tall, and prevents the saucer from closing up. In order to properly join them up, I might need to either remove that same amount from that inside ring, or heavily cement and use a lot of clamps to force the saucer halves together - or perhaps a combination of both.


Not sure what your talking about here.
The ring is the intended height so there is no 'compression' in the middle of the saucer.
The test shot I built (version 3) taped up just fine.
No problem.


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## Paulbo

ClubTepes said:


> Thats actually what I did.
> 
> 
> I still always keep the old tube glue on hand for times when I don't want a quick fix.


The Testors (or is it Model Master?) liquid cement has a slow drying time and is good for large areas like this that can't be done with the other, quick dry liquids.


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## jaws62666

Paulbo said:


> Yes, that's correct. It makes it much easier to light the bridge so that only the control panels and displays are lit.


awesome and you have masks for all the windows as well? Also for those of us who havent really worked with etch and masks as well. will the directions be easily understood by us as far as folding and placement. Do we need a folding tool for this set?


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## Paulbo

jaws62666 said:


> awesome and you have masks for all the windows as well? Also for those of us who havent really worked with etch and masks as well. will the directions be easily understood by us as far as folding and placement. Do we need a folding tool for this set?


The set doesn't have masks for the windows - Lou "Aztek Dummies" Dalmaso is working on those (or will when his kit arrives) in self-stick vinyl.

Finger pressure will be fine for folding the few pieces in this set that need it (bridge consoles, displays, and railings). They're out of 0.005" brass with heavy-duty fold lines, so they practically fold themselves.

The only moderately-tough part for first-timers will be the parts on the exterior of the shuttlebay - the fantail and "control room" (at the top of the clamshell doors) as these will need to annealed or rolled to shape. They're not really difficult to deal with, though.

You can view the instructions HERE.


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## Opus Penguin

Paulbo said:


> The set doesn't have masks for the windows - Lou "Aztek Dummies" Dalmaso is working on those (or will when his kit arrives) in self-stick vinyl.
> 
> Finger pressure will be fine for folding the few pieces in this set that need it (bridge consoles, displays, and railings). They're out of 0.005" brass with heavy-duty fold lines, so they practically fold themselves.
> 
> The only moderately-tough part for first-timers will be the parts on the exterior of the shuttlebay - the fantail and "control room" (at the top of the clamshell doors) as these will need to annealed or rolled to shape. They're not really difficult to deal with, though.
> 
> You can view the instructions HERE.


From your video instructions I went ahead and purchased a hotplate to anneal the parts. One thing I should ask since I never did this before, do you heat the photo etch before removing it from the spru (so basically this will heat everything), or do you remove the piece and do it? The reason I ask is that smaller pieces (like the shuttle bay parts or the fan blade inlets) that will not fit on the hot plate.


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## Trek Ace

ClubTepes said:


> Not sure what your talking about here.
> The ring is the intended height so there is no 'compression' in the middle of the saucer.
> The test shot I built (version 3) taped up just fine.
> No problem.


I'm just simply documenting and reporting my findings on a production run kit. 
I added photos to my earlier post to illustrate my findings.

I applied blue painter's tape around the saucer edges, and it required considerable effort to get the top saucer to lay flush. The pressure caused some of the tape to break free.

I imagine that the saucer may have to be clamped and cemented in sections, gradually working my way around the perimeter, rather than all at once.


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## SteveR

Trek Ace said:


> I'm just simply documenting and reporting my findings on a production run kit.


Is it possible that manufacturing, transport, storage conditions may have changed slightly between test shot and production run kit?


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## RICHjm

Trek Ace mine does the same! I removed the extras from the b/c deck(teardrop) and lower dome so I could see inside more when together.It defiantly sits together well in the center without any pressure(pencil shaded area on drawing)but has the gap your talking about.
View attachment 163602

I'm thinking with careful,patient alignment,gluing and clamping it will "come together" fine.Don't really want to start shaving down glue point areas.
Pretty much what you've said already,just wanted you to know yours wasn't alone.
When the halves are sitting together the gap is even all around,doesn't look warped.
Just sitting high from center.

Okay I just keep adding on here.Want to try to find whats causing this.
Looking at bottom saucer,the highest point is the "W" shaped piece(the darkest pencil shaded area on drawing).
So I took a black Shapie and outlined the top of the W.
Took a file across the top of it evenly till the marks were gone.It doesn't take much though to remove. 
Tried the halves together again.
Repeated this about 4 times till when together I could look inside and see a gap starting (the thickness of paper)with the top of the W and the upper saucer.
Okay this doesn't appear to be the problem area,still have same even gap around when halves are together. 
Maybe the "ring" will be next.


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## galaxy_jason

tardis1916 said:


> I remember someone posting a thread a while back when putting motors in the 1:1000 scale enterprise and said the following motor worked well.
> 
> http://www.pololu.com/catalog/product/1096
> 
> I'm not sure how noisey they are but I'm thinkning of picking up a couple to find out.


That was me. These are very quiet unless they touch the nacelle (no choice in my 1/1000, its noisy). In the 350 I think they could be sound isolated with rubber or something.

http://www.galaxyphoto.com/jw_en1000.htm


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## Paulbo

Opus Penguin said:


> From your video instructions I went ahead and purchased a hotplate to anneal the parts. One thing I should ask since I never did this before, do you heat the photo etch before removing it from the spru (so basically this will heat everything), or do you remove the piece and do it? The reason I ask is that smaller pieces (like the shuttle bay parts or the fan blade inlets) that will not fit on the hot plate.


I typically take parts off the fret and file off the tabs before annealing. Mainly this is because the filing is easier beforehand when you're not prone to kinking a part. 

For small parts I use a pair of needlenose pliers* (with heat resistant handles!) to place the parts onto the coils* and move them around a bit to even out the heating, then I transfer them to a hotplate for a nice, slow cool-down to complete the annealing. (Don't quench/fast cool your parts or they will end up re-hardening.)

* I've got an old pair (30+ years) that I bought at Radio Shack when they still had good stuff. They're closer to being foreceps than pliers.

** I've found that a coil-type hotplate works better than the new solid surface ones - though my coil type is also way more powerful (1100W vs 800W).


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## Trek Ace

RICHjm said:


> Trek Ace mine does the same! I removed the extras from the b/c deck(teardrop) and lower dome so I could see inside more when together.It defiantly sits together well in the center without any pressure(pencil shaded area on drawing)but has the gap your talking about.
> View attachment 163602
> 
> I'm thinking with careful,patient alignment,gluing and clamping it will "come together" fine.Don't really want to start shaving down glue point areas.
> Pretty much what you've said already,just wanted you to know yours wasn't alone.
> When the halves are sitting together the gap is even all around,doesn't look warped.
> Just sitting high from center.
> 
> Okay I just keep adding on here.Want to try to find whats causing this.
> Looking at bottom saucer,the highest point is the "W" shaped piece(the darkest pencil shaded area on drawing).
> So I took a black Shapie and outlined the top of the W.
> Took a file across the top of it evenly till the marks were gone.It doesn't take much though to remove.
> Tried the halves together again.
> Repeated this about 4 times till when together I could look inside and see a gap starting (the thickness of paper)with the top of the W and the upper saucer.
> Okay this doesn't appear to be the problem area,still have same even gap around when halves are together.
> Maybe the "ring" will be next.


Thanks, Rich.

After carefully examining the top saucer, it looks as if the outside edge curls upward ever so slightly, causing the gap along the edges. This could be just because it is such a large piece being pulled from the mold while still warm. I'm not concerned with the height of the inside ring 'spacer' of the lower saucer any longer. Mike was correct when he stated that it was the right height - it is. 

The best strategy still looks like gradually clamping and gluing the outer edges a section at a time. Then, if the teardrop area is open, applying liquid cement with a brush to secure the inside 'spacer' ring to the top by capillary action - if you choose to do so.


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## RICHjm

No, thank YOU! That was as far as I went anyway with the filing idea.Didn't want to get started with un-necessary shaving of glue points. Alignment,gluing and clamping will do the job.
_RICH.


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## Spidey7

Paulbo said:


> The set doesn't have masks for the windows - Lou "Aztek Dummies" Dalmaso is working on those (or will when his kit arrives) in self-stick vinyl.


Ok, possible "stupid N0031E" question here, but why would anyone need to use window masks? If I understand correctly, the windows in the kit are made of clear and smoked plastic and can be inserted through the hull openings after the outer hull has already been painted. Why would anyone need to tape them off? I've never used window masks before so I'm not sure that I fully understand their use. They would make sense to me if the windows in a model kit were molded into the body of the model and therefore non-removable, but on a kit like this where the body can be painted independently before installing the windows, what would the masks be needed for?


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## Opus Penguin

The masks cover the windows so you can spray the model without getting paint on the windows. When you are done painting, you remove the masks. No paint on windows and model is color you sprayed on it. This way you can install them and glue the whole thing together before painting.

Also the windows on this kit you have to install before gluing the hull together. They can't go in afterwards.


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## johnF

Spidey7 said:


> Ok, possible "stupid N0031E" question here, but why would anyone need to use window masks? If I understand correctly, the windows in the kit are made of clear and smoked plastic and can be inserted through the hull openings after the outer hull has already been painted. Why would anyone need to tape them off? I've never used window masks before so I'm not sure that I fully understand their use. They would make sense to me if the windows in a model kit were molded into the body of the model and therefore non-removable, but on a kit like this where the body can be painted independently before installing the windows, what would the masks be needed for?


The windows are mounted from the inside out on the hull and saucer, so you need to install them before you seal up the kit and paint it. 
That’s where the paint mask comes in handy.

Fast typing there Opus penguin!


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## Captain April

The other option is a bit trickier, paint the parts first, install the windows and lights, glue it all together, and then do touch up work around the seams.


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## RICHjm

yes...its called "sub assembling".Putting all the mini puzzles together to create the whole. Touching up afterwards where they have all joined together._RICH.


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## Opus Penguin

Any recommendations on which Mr. Surfacer primer to use? I am thinking of using this.


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## tardis1916

Anyone know how many RPM the motors spin at in the engines? I've got everything to do my own lighting, just not sure if I should try the spinning engines or not.


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## ViperRecon

Someone told me that 60rpm would be about right. I picked up a number of Precision Mini Gearhead Motors by Sayama (12SM-AT3) for this a while ago. Nice and small (you could get one into a 1:1000 nacelle with a little work), very quiet...

Mark in Okinawa


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## tardis1916

That's a great help. I think I'm going to go ahead and start with my own electronics, order two of those motors and make the production version first. Then I'll pick up a standard kit later and do a non-lit mirror mirror universe version. :thumbsup:


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## neps

So, I'm curious about one thing: The build displayed at Wonderfest this year featured a lit hanger bay, along with fantail lighting. However, if you look at the kit, it's clear that it was not designed to facilitate that sort of illumination (at least, not without a great deal of work). Now, I don't mind putting in that kind of work, but I'd love to hear from the builder (E. James Small) regarding how he cut out the areas on the fantail, in particular.


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## jaws62666

neps said:


> So, I'm curious about one thing: The build displayed at Wonderfest this year featured a lit hanger bay, along with fantail lighting. However, if you look at the kit, it's clear that it was not designed to facilitate that sort of illumination (at least, not without a great deal of work). Now, I don't mind putting in that kind of work, but I'd love to hear from the builder (E. James Small) regarding how he cut out the areas on the fantail, in particular.


I believe the light kit comes with clear parts for the hangar and fantail to light it


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## Paulbo

jaws62666 said:


> I believe the light kit comes with clear parts for the hangar and fantail to light it


That's right. I pretty sure Tom highlighted that in one of his videos. My PE set has parts to fit over the clear bridge and shuttlebay parts to make light-blocking much easier.


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## Nektu

Just opened mine up... and it's awesome!
With all the clamor about grid lines, I never expected to see another issue. The secondary hull on my kit has some major dimpling from the internal structure... all over the upper part and some of the sides. Anyone else have this issue? Major filling to correct this! K


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## jaws62666

Paulbo said:


> That's right. I pretty sure Tom highlighted that in one of his videos. My PE set has parts to fit over the clear bridge and shuttlebay parts to make light-blocking much easier.


I just got your kit and it is great. I am an etch noob so can you tell me with the bridge etch what do i do paint the bridge first , leaving spaces for the console lights, or put on the etch and spray around the clear parts? Any help would be appreciated.


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## Trek Ace

Nektu said:


> Just opened mine up... and it's awesome!
> With all the clamor about grid lines, I never expected to see another issue. The secondary hull on my kit has some major dimpling from the internal structure... all over the upper part and some of the sides. Anyone else have this issue? Major filling to correct this! K


My secondary hull is fine, it is the engine nacelles that have all of the dimpling.


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## Paulbo

jaws62666 said:


> I just got your kit and it is great. I am an etch noob so can you tell me with the bridge etch what do i do paint the bridge first , leaving spaces for the console lights, or put on the etch and spray around the clear parts? Any help would be appreciated.


I just got my kit - I hadn't realized how dark the plastic is - my test shot was in pure white, which I'd install by:


Mask off areas where the photoetch will be installed.
Paint the bridge and PE separately.
Attach photoetch.
Add decals.

This is also how I'd do it for the clear lighting kit bridge.

If you're lighting the gray plastic bridge, I'd:


Drill out the areas to be lit (you don't have to be super-neat as it'll be covered by the PE. 
Attach the PE.
Paint the bridge.
Fill in the holes with Micro Krystal Klear of Testors Window Maker.
Attach the decals.

For the cutting and such I go through that (with a different kit) in this 




.


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## Model Man

Paulbo said:


> That's right. I pretty sure Tom highlighted that in one of his videos. My PE set has parts to fit over the clear bridge and shuttlebay parts to make light-blocking much easier.


Yes, it's in the light kit review video. It's too bad that is the only way to get those clear parts, too. I guess one could cast clear resin copies. A simple, clear resin, 'water' kit from Micheal's or similar might do the trick.


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## Nektu

Hey ModelMan,
Did the kit you reviewed have major dimpling on the secondary hull and nacelles from the support sectiion inside? It's bad in my secondary hull, like 40% of the surface needs filling/sanding. Al the worry about the primary hull and grid lines, never even thought this would be an issue! 
Thanks, K


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## Ductapeforever

I have the most *Awesome* girlfriend in the world. Until we can get the temperature controled museum glass display cabinet ordered next year, she has graciously donated a 300 thread count snow white Egyptian Cotton linen bed sheet upon which I am having the following graphic silkscreened on. She is going to sew me a custom dust cover to place over the ship with it . The graphic will appear on the two lengthwise sides and an Constitution Class Developement Project logo will be silkscreened on the opposite ends.


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## Trek Ace

Hey Tom,

On your lighting kit review, could you show the cycle time on the navigation lights?

I'm curious as to what on/off timing was used, or if it is selectable.


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## Fozzie

Ductapeforever said:


> I have the most *Awesome* girlfriend in the world. Until we can get the temperature controled museum glass display cabinet ordered next year, she has graciously donated a 300 thread count snow white Egyptian Cotton linen bed sheet upon which I am having the following graphic silkscreened on. She is going to sew me a custom dust cover to place over the ship with it . The graphic will appear on the two lengthwise sides and an Constitution Class Developement Project logo will be silkscreened on the opposite ends.


Cool!

Where'd you get that Constitution Class Development Project logo? I might want to put that on my base...


----------



## Ductapeforever

Fozzie said:


> Cool!
> 
> Where'd you get that Constitution Class Development Project logo? I might want to put that on my base...


Google "Star Trek Logos' with the search engine set for images, for random stuff.

Google 'Constitution Class Developement Project'

There are some amazing designs on the web. :thumbsup:


----------



## Fozzie

Thanks. I found where it came from and a host of others by the same artist. Incredible work!


----------



## Ductapeforever

Fozzie said:


> Thanks. I found where it came from and a host of others by the same artist. Incredible work!




I just stubled across the *'Mother Load'* of Trek artwork.....


http://www.st-minutiae.com/academy/anthropology114A/index.html


----------



## Captain April

Ya might wanna switch that Paramount logo for a CBS one. Paramount Studios hasn't had any control over TOS for the past few years.


----------



## Ductapeforever

Captain April said:


> Ya might wanna switch that Paramount logo for a CBS one. Paramount Studios hasn't had any control over TOS for the past few years.



True, but I'm choosing to use the 'Guardian of Forever' and depict the model during the series years, might even add a small Desilu logo as well. As for the Paramount logo I like the fact they're celebrating 100 years. Happy Anniversary !


----------



## tardis1916

And construction had begun on my Enterprise. Here's a few pics so far.

The black parts are areas that will have lights so that goes down before primer and paint.

http://tardis1916.com/models/thumbnails.php?album=60


----------



## robiwon

What was your final color choice for the kit?


----------



## Hunch

Trek Ace said:


> My secondary hull is fine, it is the engine nacelles that have all of the dimpling.


Ditto on the nacell dimpling. Small potatoes compared to the dish grid line filling that will be going on at my house. She will be perfect though. Greatest kit I ever bought!
I guess a shot here and there is pulled too quickly from the mold or the temp of the water that cools the plastic is not cold enough on some of the parts molds resulting in the dimpling on the opposite side of where a pin is located. Hard to believe though considering how thick the plastic is! Hurt my wrist the other day just carrying it in the box to another room. I'm getting old and weak! :lol:


----------



## jaws62666

tardis1916 said:


> And construction had begun on my Enterprise. Here's a few pics so far.
> 
> The black parts are areas that will have lights so that goes down before primer and paint.
> 
> http://tardis1916.com/models/thumbnails.php?album=60


you paint yours pre assembly? do you paint the insides too? what do you use as glue that sticks to the paint?


----------



## Spidey7

Wanted to ask for your opinions. What's the best "filler" to putty joins and cracks with? I've tried the Testor's putty in the grey tube, but never really liked it. Some guys have told me that they use Bondo, others mix their own putty out of "secret ingredients". 

Any advice from anyone? I've never had this much puttying to do before, so I want to use something good.


----------



## Trek Ace

I use a red automotive tube putty called Nitro-Stan. A single tube is big, cheap, and can last for years. It also dries quickly, can be thinned to the consistency of paint, and there is little or no shrinkage.


----------



## tardis1916

My "final" color was going to be IJN light grey by Tamiya but it is way to dark so I'm going to put a new final coat of Tamiya fine surface primer as the outer layer. Looks better.

I do have a habit of painting before assembly, since the plastic is so thick I won't need to paint the insides, but I usually do on other models that I put lights into. Part of this is because I do my electronics one peice at a time and then connect them together as I'm assembling the model. (Yes, I'm just weird)

This time I masked all the glue points (which took hours) so that I will have good mating surfaces when I'm putting it together. I use testors model master glue.


----------



## tardis1916

Anyone notice issues with part #140? Both of mine have problems with the center spindle.


----------



## mach7

Spidey7 said:


> Wanted to ask for your opinions. What's the best "filler" to putty joins and cracks with? I've tried the Testor's putty in the grey tube, but never really liked it. Some guys have told me that they use Bondo, others mix their own putty out of "secret ingredients".
> 
> Any advice from anyone? I've never had this much puttying to do before, so I want to use something good.


Bondo gold. It's 2 parts that needs mixing. Dries fast and can be sanded in about 10-15 min. Most importantly it does not shrink with age.

It's available at any auto parts store.


----------



## woof359

base seems heavy enough, seems like my kit might be a later pull with few probelms #1501


----------



## woof359

been checking over parts before it gets the all important bath, no dimples in the engines and the 2 saucers halfs fit fine


----------



## JGG1701

*...................................*


----------



## Opus Penguin

Okay ... gonna ask some advice here because I really don't want to screw this up. I hear of different ways to frost the domes. Which is the best? Do I use Frosted Glass or fine grade steel wool? I have both (I have a can of Rustoleum Frosted Glass and Grade #0000 steel wool). Which would the modeling group here recommend? I am leaning toward the steel wool, but is the grade I have fine enough to make an nice frosted even surface? Also, do you frost both the outer and inner dome, and do you only frost the inside or outside of each dome, or both? I plan to light this if this is a consideration.


----------



## ClubTepes

Opus Penguin said:


> Okay ... gonna ask some advice here because I really don't want to screw this up. I hear of different ways to frost the domes. Which is the best? Do I use Frosted Glass or fine grade steel wool? I have both (I have a can of Rustoleum Frosted Glass and Grade #0000 steel wool). Which would the modeling group here recommend? I am leaning toward the steel wool, but is the grade I have fine enough to make an nice frosted even surface? Also, do you frost both the outer and inner dome, and do you only frost the inside or outside of each dome, or both? I plan to light this if this is a consideration.


I suggest steel wool on the inside of the domes and a dull coat on the outside.
The fine steel wool may leave a trace of a sanding pattern, but would very likely be obscured by any dull coat. 

I'd suggest one step at a time, to determine the look you like best. 

And if you have the premiere kit, you can practice on the other set of domes first.


----------



## SteveR

Would it make sense to attach some steel wool to a low-speed Dremel inside the bussard collector ... to make any streaks all in the same direction?


----------



## Model Man

What about polishing any scratches with toothpaste afterwards? Maybe a coat of Future would even them out as well.


----------



## Captain April

I'm leaning towards some sort of dullcoat, simply because if you screw it up somehow, you can clean it out and try again, whereas with steel wool or sanding, there's no going back with that.


----------



## Opus Penguin

Captain April said:


> I'm leaning towards some sort of dullcoat, simply because if you screw it up somehow, you can clean it out and try again, whereas with steel wool or sanding, there's no going back with that.


That's the part that worries me which is why I am hesitant. But if that is better than Frosted Glass I am willing to risk it.


----------



## Spidey7

Model Man said:


> What about polishing any scratches with toothpaste afterwards? Maybe a coat of Future would even them out as well.


Wouldn't polishing the scratches out just remove the frosted look that the steel wool made? I would be afraid that if the polish gets out visible scratches, it will also smooth out all the microscopic scratches that make up the "frosting".


----------



## Model Man

Spidey7 said:


> Wouldn't polishing the scratches out just remove the frosted look that the steel wool made? I would be afraid that if the polish gets out visible scratches, it will also smooth out all the microscopic scratches that make up the "frosting".


That would be self-defeating, wouldn't it? lol. Hadn't thought of that.


----------



## Spidey7

So here's a question. In order to do a pattern of both lit and darkened windows, a number of the "window trays" need to be cut apart in order to mix up the clear windows with the smoked ones. Would it be any easier to simply paint the inside of clear windows with black paint, (or the outside)? If this worked then you could do a mixed pattern of lighted/darkened windows without sawing all the windows apart. It would also allow you to keep the structural integrity of the "window tray" since it would still be one large piece. That way you also could avoid having little individual smoked windows that might come unglued and fall inside the body of the model. 

My main worry is that by having lots of little "singles" all pieced in, there's a much greater risk of something coming unglued later down the road. The nice thing about keeping the "window trays" in one piece is that it's such a large component that even if a few glue welds broke loose down the road, it would still hold in place.


----------



## tardis1916

I am planning on the black paint to the backside and the front of the windows I want to have "off"


----------



## SteveR

Spidey7 said:


> In order to do a pattern of both lit and darkened windows, a number of the "window trays" need to be cut apart in order to mix up the clear windows with the smoked ones.


I think that allowed some modellers to assemble the kit without using paint, broadening the appeal.


----------



## Paulbo

One downside to only painting the backside of the windows is that you'd get light leak from the sides since the part that holds them all together will transmit light around.


----------



## Model Man

Paulbo said:


> One downside to only painting the backside of the windows is that you'd get light leak from the sides since the part that holds them all together will transmit light around.


Painting the sides of the windows should stop that though, no? No, now that i think of it more. You're absolutely right, Paul. One would have to slice the windows no matter what...

Additionally, I only briefly lit the nacelles for the upcoming last video review, but that quick test shows that even though the kit plastic is very thick, any lights inside are going to cause subsurface scattering, requiring the interior walls to be coated with paint or primer in whichever color one chooses. Maybe an interior coat can be avoided, but I think the ship is going to glow in all the wrong ways if it's not painted. ClubTepes will likely have the definitive word on that factor as he developed the lighting kit.


----------



## Steve H

Captain April said:


> I'm leaning towards some sort of dullcoat, simply because if you screw it up somehow, you can clean it out and try again, whereas with steel wool or sanding, there's no going back with that.


I have a most bizarre thought, and maybe this is completely stupid. 

Could a decal be made that could be laid in the dome to dull it? Something with a super fine dot screen of gray or white?

Or even just decal film by itself?

Yes, I know, trying to get something that lay correctly inside a dome is insane. It may well be impossible. Dullcoat is probably just easier. Or Tamiya clear smoke or something. I'm just wondering if someone might try it and see what effect it has. Given the size of the part, it's something that wouldn't have worked on any of the other scale Enterprise kits. 

Oh wait. The fan. Clearance. OK, never mind.


----------



## Nova Designs

Steve H said:


> I have a most bizarre thought, and maybe this is completely stupid.
> 
> Could a decal be made that could be laid in the dome to dull it? Something with a super fine dot screen of gray or white?
> 
> Or even just decal film by itself?
> 
> Yes, I know, trying to get something that lay correctly inside a dome is insane. It may well be impossible. Dullcoat is probably just easier. Or Tamiya clear smoke or something. I'm just wondering if someone might try it and see what effect it has. Given the size of the part, it's something that wouldn't have worked on any of the other scale Enterprise kits.
> 
> Oh wait. The fan. Clearance. OK, never mind.


There may be clearance in there but attempting to decal the inside of a domed surface with no mistakes is just madness. :freak: Just sand it and be done. Dullcoat the outside and it will look fine.


----------



## SteveR

How about dumping some really fine sand (hotel ashtray? etching?) into the bussard collector, taping up the open end, then shaking it up until it's dull inside?


----------



## Nova Designs

SteveR said:


> How about dumping some really fine sand (hotel ashtray? etching?) into the bussard collector, taping up the open end, then shaking it up until it's dull inside?


Actually you could do a sort of sand blasting of the inside if you have a setup to do that.


----------



## Spidey7

SteveR said:


> I think that allowed some modellers to assemble the kit without using paint, broadening the appeal.


I agree with you and I think that it was a good idea on Round2's part. I'm not finding fault with their reasoning behind making the windows that way. I'm just trying to brainstorm an easy way of using the windows provided to get the lit/dark effect without having to cut anything apart to mix and match. 

What about painting the back AND the front of certain clear windows with black paint? That way when you push the windows through the hull and into place there would be a double layer of light-blocking paint.


Also, for frosting the inside of the domes, would a light sanding with a small square piece of 800 grit wet/dry sandpaper attached to the flat rubber eraser of a new pencil do the trick?


----------



## Ductapeforever

SteveR said:


> How about dumping some really fine sand (hotel ashtray? etching?) into the bussard collector, taping up the open end, then shaking it up until it's dull inside?


Formula for success...

One Inexpensive External Mix Airbrush

Widest available tip for same

Large feed bottle for same

Fine craft sand - Large bag

Air compresser set for high output

Blast Away ! 

Might take several passes but should yield best results.


----------



## BruceDownunder

Alternative Formula For Success;

1 x Cup Of Sand
1 x Drinking straw
Above Average Lung Capacity


----------



## Lou Dalmaso

Spidey7 said:


> I agree with you and I think that it was a good idea on Round2's part. I'm not finding fault with their reasoning behind making the windows that way. I'm just trying to brainstorm an easy way of using the windows provided to get the lit/dark effect without having to cut anything apart to mix and match.
> 
> What about painting the back AND the front of certain clear windows with black paint? That way when you push the windows through the hull and into place there would be a double layer of light-blocking paint.
> 
> 
> Also, for frosting the inside of the domes, would a light sanding with a small square piece of 800 grit wet/dry sandpaper attached to the flat rubber eraser of a new pencil do the trick?


Or you could put painting masks over the window when you,'re done because they're perfect black rectangles.

Just saying


----------



## Prologic9

I'm not sure which thread to ask in, but it would be really nice if someone at Round2 could give use the exact diameters of the concentric grid-lines. 

I've got some tools on the way that I'll be able to measure them with eventually, but I doubt I'll get as precise as a CAD file.


----------



## Spidey7

Lou Dalmaso said:


> Or you could put painting masks over the window when you,'re done because they're perfect black rectangles.
> 
> Just saying


That's a GREAT idea! Now if only some talented individual out there would hurry up and make a masking kit available. :tongue:


----------



## Paulbo

Spidey7 said:


> That's a GREAT idea! Now if only some talented individual out there would hurry up and make a masking kit available. :tongue:


Hmm. I wonder who that could be :thumbsup:


----------



## SteveR

<Ted Baxter>LOOOOOOOU!!!!!</Ted Baxter>


----------



## Paulbo

Mary Richards said:


> Ohhh, Mr. Grant!


----------



## SteveR

Perhaps some Enterprising sort could cast a bunch of clear resin bussard collectors with frosted insides. Hey, a buck's a buck ... but it might be too close to recasting. Maybe not.

I might try DTF's sandblasting method.


----------



## jaws62666

I asked Jamie what could be done to work on the kits before the light kits arrrived. He has the directions for the accessory kit in the accessory section on Round 2 for those who want to strategize the build. It has the etch and weathering directions as well.


----------



## TrekFX

As far as "frosting" plastic, I've had really good results with kitchen scrubbing powders (I like Bon Ami.)

I just scrub it really well with a soft toothbrush or trimmed back/stiffer paintbrush (and I have a retired electric toothbrush for the little pieces and stuff with more intricate engraving....) It gives a somewhat subtle frost without an obvious scratch-mark pattern, but doesn't really eat away much fine detail.

For a more robust scrub, I toss in some 100 DM sandblasting abrasive or the stuff that came with my Paasche Air Eraser. Fine playsand would probably work too if you were gentle with the pressure and let time do the work. I don't use that material on anything with detail or where I want to keep crisp edges, as it is much more aggressive.


----------



## irishtrek

*Round 2 1/350 TOS Fixes*

Do we need a thread for fixes and inacuracies like we did for the refit 7 years ago??? If so then let this be it.


----------



## onigiri

examining my kit and having followed the development I've yet to find anything Id really consider an inaccuracy other than it being an idealized version of the 11 footer. The gridlines seem to be the only really contentious issue. They are a lot finer in person but Id still be interested to see what people do to deal with them


----------



## onigiri

I dont know if anyone has talked about this but on the 11 footer the bussards had broken mirrors around the Xmas bulbs to bounce the lights. Any ideas about how to recreate that at 1/350th effectively? Maybe aluminum foil?


----------



## Opus Penguin

Oh ... it's been discussed. Basically it is whatever you want to try. Some feel the area is too small to be worth it, and some are experimenting to see what they can do.


----------



## RossW

I'm thinking the inner fan blade clear part should be frosted/sanded as well as the outer dome to truly hide the individual LEDs.

Thoughts?


----------



## RossW

jaws62666 said:


> I asked Jamie what could be done to work on the kits before the light kits arrrived. He has the directions for the accessory kit in the accessory section on Round 2 for those who want to strategize the build. It has the etch and weathering directions as well.


jaws - do you have a URL? I couldn't find that area on the Round2 site and I would love to see the light kit instructions.


----------



## jaws62666

RossW said:


> jaws - do you have a URL? I couldn't find that area on the Round2 site and I would love to see the light kit instructions.


http://round2models.com/models/accessories/enterprise-accessories


----------



## Opus Penguin

Heh heh ... shows release date of October 2012.


----------



## Opus Penguin

RossW said:


> I'm thinking the inner fan blade clear part should be frosted/sanded as well as the outer dome to truly hide the individual LEDs.
> 
> Thoughts?


My plan is to frost the inside of the outer dome and see how that first diffuses the light. If more is needed, I will Dullcoat the inner dome, and the outside of the outer dome.


----------



## RossW

Thanks jaws!


----------



## actias

To replicate the broken pieces of mirror effect, how about using course grade glitter chips.


----------



## Opus Penguin

I don't even see the gridlines as being an issue. I plan to keep them there. They will become less intrusive after painting and weathering.


----------



## Steve H

I'm not sure the nacelles need mirror bits. I'm thinking that was one of those things in the studio model that was felt needed to help the effect stand out from the intense studio lights used in filming. Modern LEDS under normal home lighting should look fine. 

I mean, is anyone going to take it to the extreme of stripping detail from the left side of the kit and gouging a trench for the wiring in the engineering hull? Probably not.  

(altho recreating the effects stage complete with cameras and light stands and apple crates would be an awesome way to display the model... What would that make it? roughly 1/6 scale?)


----------



## Opus Penguin

Steve H said:


> (altho recreating the effects stage complete with cameras and light stands and apple crates would be an awesome way to display the model... What would that make it? roughly 1/6 scale?)


I seem to recall someone on this board was going to make a diorama of the studio miniature as it was filmed including the blue chalk stand.


----------



## TrekFX

Maybe the mirror bits helped to multiply/spread the number of apparent point-sources or otherwise spice up the lighting effect?


----------



## Havok69

jaws62666 said:


> http://round2models.com/models/accessories/enterprise-accessories


Ugh - those pdf's are crap. Looks like they pasted jpegs of the instructions and converted to pdf. They don't scale up at all. Oh well, at least we can see it...


----------



## jaws62666

Havok69 said:


> Ugh - those pdf's are crap. Looks like they pasted jpegs of the instructions and converted to pdf. They don't scale up at all. Oh well, at least we can see it...


ya but at least it can be seen well enough to pre plan your kit, and do some pre build maybe. i might start the hangar over the weekend. want oto see the galileo 7 built up


----------



## Lou Dalmaso

I wonder how these are being distributed.

Order # was 313. fairly early.

arrrived on Monday (which again, seems pretty standard across the boards)

Certificate # 1645 !

now I'm reading posts where folks are posting # under 500.

Not that It really matters, I wonder if the higher numbers were on the top of the "pile" and the lower ones are still to be bought

just askin'


----------



## Opus Penguin

I broke down and used the steel wool to "frost" the inside of the domes. It worked out real well that I did the same to the lower Planetary Sensor Dome. I will Dullcoat the outside as recommended as well which should hide any noticable lined abrasions as well as dull down the glare on the dome. It worked pretty well. Now I just need the light kit to test it out.


----------



## gman223

*PE tip*

Hi all,
Long time lurker here. Learned a lot from all of you thanks. Thought I'd chime in on the PE, since I havn't seen anyone mention it. For glueing PE I use Gators Grip hobby glue. Its acrylic, and stays slighty flexiable, doesn't get brittle like CA. Also doesn't dry immediately so positioning doesn't have to be perfect first try. I first used this on my 1/72 u-boat 5 years ago, glued PE to PE, PE to styrene, PE to wood, and small painted peices to painted pieces, also secured the rigging knots with it. Everything is still holding up very well, yeah I pull and push on peices from time to time just to see, personally I'll never use CA on PE again. 
Had a thought about diffusing the lights in the bussards, what about those LED gel caps? Havn't got my Big E yet to see space, not that it would matter can't even peek at it till 12/25 

Happy holidays everyone
Gerald


----------



## Nova Designs

Opus Penguin said:


> I broke down and used the steel wool to "frost" the inside of the domes. It worked out real well that I did the same to the lower Planetary Sensor Dome. I will Dullcoat the outside as recommended as well which should hide any noticable lined abrasions as well as dull down the glare on the dome. It worked pretty well. Now I just need the light kit to test it out.


I guess someone had to be first to take the plunge! I'm glad it worked out, should be easy enough to do.:thumbsup:


----------



## Ductapeforever

Who is going to be the first aftermarket company to produce red tinted outer nacelle domes for this beauty?


----------



## Nova Designs

You could always us Tamiya clear red on them.


----------



## Nova Designs

So far this thing is amazing and other than some surface sink marks, easily fixed, I don't see anything I'm going to change. She's beautiful!


----------



## Spidey7

Hot damn! I just managed to score the very last bottle of "Canadian VooDoo Grey" in the entire area!


----------



## mach7

onigiri said:


> I dont know if anyone has talked about this but on the 11 footer the bussards had broken mirrors around the Xmas bulbs to bounce the lights. Any ideas about how to recreate that at 1/350th effectively? Maybe aluminum foil?



I was going to use chrome bare metal foil on mine, but something just occurred to me. I have a stash of Swarovski black diamond jewels I got for my John Long Comm, They might fit and work great.

I'll check it out tonight.


----------



## ffejG

Spidey7 said:


> Hot damn! I just managed to score the very last bottle of "Canadian VooDoo Grey" in the entire area!


Anybody got a substitute for this color now that it is gone? I have been gathering the colors for the second pilot version and this is the last color I need.


----------



## Nova Designs

Is one bottle of that stuff going to be enough?


----------



## Trekkriffic

Nova Designs said:


> Is one bottle of that stuff going to be enough?


If it were me I'd lay down a shade of grey slightly darker than the CVG then lay on thin layers of CVG over the top of it. That would help stretch out the CVG and the underlying layer would act as pre-shading; leave it showing thru a bit for areas at the top of the dorsal and nacelle pylons; under the saucer where the hollow is. Give the impression of shadows like you'd see on something the size of an aircraft carrier when the light hits it from certain angles. 
Just a thought.


----------



## Trekkriffic

Opus Penguin said:


> I broke down and used the steel wool to "frost" the inside of the domes. It worked out real well that I did the same to the lower Planetary Sensor Dome. I will Dullcoat the outside as recommended as well which should hide any noticable lined abrasions as well as dull down the glare on the dome. It worked pretty well. Now I just need the light kit to test it out.


Probably a dumb question but have you tried shining an LED flashlight behind it to see how it looks? I imagine you must have.


----------



## BruceDownunder

Nova Designs said:


> Is one bottle of that stuff going to be enough?


According to the colour callout, Canadian Voodoo Gray is only for the intercooler accents, so yeah, one bottle ought to do it.


----------



## wjplenge

ffejG said:


> Anybody got a substitute for this color now that it is gone? I have been gathering the colors for the second pilot version and this is the last color I need.


Did Testors stop making it? They still list it on their site, though do have it marked "Limited Availablility" http://www.testors.com/search?q=voodoo&.x=0&.y=0


----------



## Nova Designs

BruceDownunder said:


> According to the colour callout, Canadian Voodoo Gray is only for the intercooler accents, so yeah, one bottle ought to do it.



Ah, ok! :thumbsup:


----------



## Steve H

TrekFX said:


> Maybe the mirror bits helped to multiply/spread the number of apparent point-sources or otherwise spice up the lighting effect?


Yeah, that would do that but, to really make that pop wouldn't gluing bits of mirror to the inside of the fan blades work better?

Of course that would probably only work on the studio model. With the 1/350 kit one would have to be more mindful of mass and balance. 

Altho...hm...bare metal foil on the insides of the fan blades? Or however they work it on the kit.


----------



## irishtrek

Over on SSM this morning I saw a thread for someones build and he had pointed out a problem with the windows on the B/C deck housing and on another thread a pic showed sink marks on the saucer bottom after he had painted it silver.


----------



## Opus Penguin

Just ordered all the paints for the colors recommended on the box (yes, even the Canadian Voodoo Gray). The only one I didn't get is the exterior hull color. I am not sure how much paint I will need to order to fully coat the model properly. I am still looking at getting a larger, pint size, amount. Perhaps I will bring in an extra spru or cut the color on the box cover and bring it in to see if I can get custom paint mixed to match.


----------



## starmanmm

Interesting to see how much of the base color is going to be needed for this project.


----------



## Spidey7

starmanmm said:


> Interesting to see how much of the base color is going to be needed for this project.


I bought a 5 gallon bucket.


----------



## Gregatron

I noticed that the pilot part instructions don't seem to have color callouts for the replacement inboard nacelle trenches or rear endcaps (both of which are molded in the main hull color).

Now, unless some new evidence which Gary found says different, I was under the impression that the pilot endcaps were hull-colored, and the inboard channels the darker accent gray.

Not to say I personally am confused, but it could be confusing for those not thoroughly versed in the variants of the ship.


----------



## Gregatron

Thinking about the gridlines...

They're really not a big deal. Very thin and subtle. Should be easy to remove, if one so desires.

I've been thinking about a few ways to tackle the grids...

1. High-build primer (like Rustoleum automotive primer) would likely fill the lines after a coat or three.

2. One could use a wash to define the lines, then lightly apply the basecoat, then another wash, then another pass with the basecoat. Eventually, the lines would be pretty much filled, with just a subtle suggestion of the wash underneath, right?


----------



## Sparky

ffejG said:


> Anybody got a substitute for this color now that it is gone? I have been gathering the colors for the second pilot version and this is the last color I need.


If interested:
I just ordered a bottle of the Canadian Voo Doo Grey through Amazon from a company called Wondertrail. Appears there are a few more bottles left for order: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008J6THIS/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i02


----------



## Calamus

*Anyone going to use Acrylic paints*

Anyone going to use Acrylic paints instead of the Enamels and if so, has anyone done a cross reference yet?


----------



## StarshipClass

Gregatron said:


> I noticed that the pilot part instructions don't seem to have color callouts for the replacement inboard nacelle trenches or rear endcaps (both of which are molded in the main hull color).
> 
> Now, unless some new evidence which Gary found says different, I was under the impression that the pilot endcaps were hull-colored, and the inboard channels the darker accent gray.
> 
> Not to say I personally am confused, but it could be confusing for those not thoroughly versed in the variants of the ship.


You know, I keep forgetting that Gary was involved in providing such detailed information. I normally ignore or don't give much credence to such color call-outs but this has got to be an exception.


----------



## mach7

Speaking of colors,

Gregatron, What color are you going to paint the neck on yours?


----------



## Lou Dalmaso

*the first results are in*

Hey gang,
I just wanted to update you that the templates are well underway and the first sets should go out the beginning of next week.

the set has been finalised and will include:

*all* windows - plus extras - just in case 
inner dome strips
masks for the gray shapes under the nacelles
masks to paint the "landing gear" triangles

Happy Thanksgiving


----------



## RossW

Lou Dalmaso said:


> Hey gang,
> I just wanted to update you that the templates are well underway and the first sets should go out the beginning of next week.
> 
> the set has been finalised and will include:
> 
> *all* windows - plus extras - just in case
> inner dome strips
> masks for the gray shapes under the nacelles
> masks to paint the "landing gear" triangles
> 
> Happy Thanksgiving


Hey Lou - could you double the fan blade masks so that they can go on the inside as well? I think that might help in achieving the total opaqueness I'm after.


----------



## ffejG

Sparky said:


> If interested:
> I just ordered a bottle of the Canadian Voo Doo Grey through Amazon from a company called Wondertrail. Appears there are a few more bottles left for order: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008J6THIS/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i02


Thank you Sparky. I made my post because someone on another forum said this color had been discontinued but based on what I see in this thread they appear to be wrong. Sorry if I created any concern about that.


----------



## Lou Dalmaso

RossW said:


> Hey Lou - could you double the fan blade masks so that they can go on the inside as well? I think that might help in achieving the total opaqueness I'm after.


I'll see if there is room, but the vinyl is plenty opaque with just one layer. I use it for light block all the time.


----------



## Gary K

Gregatron said:


> I noticed that the pilot part instructions don't seem to have color callouts for the replacement inboard nacelle trenches or rear endcaps (both of which are molded in the main hull color).
> 
> Now, unless some new evidence which Gary found says different, I was under the impression that the pilot endcaps were hull-colored, and the inboard channels the darker accent gray.
> 
> Not to say I personally am confused, but it could be confusing for those not thoroughly versed in the variants of the ship.


You're correct about the colors of the Pilot endcaps & nacelle recesses. I believe the auxiliary kit for the Pilot parts will feature Petri Blomqvist's color renderings, which should clear up the confusion. I'll see if Jamie can't add some clarifications to the next printing of the instruction sheet.

Gary


----------



## pagni

Would be nice to post a corrected color call out on the R2 website as a downloadable pdf.


----------



## RossW

Thanks Lou!

ffejG - Canadian Voodoo Grey **is** discontinued and hard to find, so I'm glad you Yanks can get from Amazon or Testors. Since it's an enamel, they won't ship it to me in Canada. Sigh ...


----------



## Lou Dalmaso

*Did I miss a very basic point?*

never mind. now I feel stupid. just watch the review videos next time


----------



## Spidey7

Lou Dalmaso said:


> I'll see if there is room, but the vinyl is plenty opaque with just one layer. I use it for light block all the time.


Lou, you had mentioned something about possibly including registry masks in the "deluxe" masking set. Would these masks be the kind where we apply them to the hull, airbrush over them, and then peel them back off in order to have a painted "U.S.S. Enterprise N.C.C.-1701" on the hull? Or would they be stick on letters & numbers that would just replace the decals? In other words, would they be raised from the hull surface?


----------



## jaws62666

Lou Dalmaso said:


> Hey gang,
> I just wanted to update you that the templates are well underway and the first sets should go out the beginning of next week.
> 
> the set has been finalised and will include:
> 
> *all* windows - plus extras - just in case
> inner dome strips
> masks for the gray shapes under the nacelles
> masks to paint the "landing gear" triangles
> 
> Happy Thanksgiving


Do we get these right from you Lou, or from suppliers. Those blade masks are used permanently as opposed to painitng?


----------



## Spidey7

ffejG said:


> Thank you Sparky. I made my post because someone on another forum said this color had been discontinued but based on what I see in this thread they appear to be wrong. Sorry if I created any concern about that.


To echo RossW, Canadian VooDoo grey HAS been discontinued. The Amazon link you posted is already "out of stock".


----------



## jaws62666

Spidey7 said:


> To echo RossW, Canadian VooDoo grey HAS been discontinued. The Amazon link you posted is already "out of stock".


testors has stock right on their site
http://www.testors.com/product/0/2039/_/16515_Canadian_Voodoo_Grey_(G)_MM_-_12_oz._Bottle


----------



## Spidey7

jaws62666 said:


> testors has stock right on their site
> http://www.testors.com/product/0/2039/_/16515_Canadian_Voodoo_Grey_(G)_MM_-_12_oz._Bottle


Yeah, but it's listed on their site as "limited availability". I've been told by a few others that they couldn't get it from Testors.


----------



## Lou Dalmaso

Here's the thing on the registry numbers.

What i will provide on the "advanced" set will be a positive/negative box. 

you can peel out the "positive" letter shapes and just stick them to the hull or you can peel them out from the rectangle box, stick the box down and spray paint the lettering on. You will need to apply the inside of the "0" as a separate piece, so be sure you center it correctly before you spray 

the fins for the inner bussards are meant to be applied and left there forever.

I'm offering these to my regular suppliers, but if there are any shops out there that y'all use that don't currently stock my stuff, I will certainly be happy to contact them to see if they'd be interested.

BTW I'm also investigating making the red and yellow markings in vinyl. those would be a specialty item and would be much more expensive because I would do all of the hand work needed to make them peel and stick individually. Just an idea at this point. I've done this for 66" versions, but this is more tiny :freak:


----------



## Gregatron

mach7 said:


> Speaking of colors,
> 
> Gregatron, What color are you going to paint the neck on yours?



Since I'm not building mine for a long time, and I'm not even sure if I'll do a pilot version, I dunno!


----------



## Gregatron

Speaking of colors, the instructions also don't make it clear whether just the "ball" on the tip of the deflector dish spike should be brass, or if the ball and the collar behind it should be brass (with the rest of the spike being metallic silver).


----------



## tardis1916

I happened to pick up the last bottle of Canadian VooDoo grey at my local hobby store; Piper Hobby in VA.


----------



## Spidey7

tardis1916 said:


> I happened to pick up the last bottle of Canadian VooDoo grey at my local hobby store; Piper Hobby in VA.


No WAY! When? 

Because I just picked up the last bottle of Canadian VooDoo grey at MY local hobby store which is Piper Hobby in Chantilly, Va. Those sneaky guys must just be putting out one bottle at a time!


----------



## tardis1916

And on another subject, I've ordered a second kit, this time the standard kit from MegaHobby. If you enter "hobbytalk" for a coupon code, you get $15 off your order. 

I think I'll pick up the lighting kit and registry decals later for my second one.


----------



## tardis1916

It was about a week ago. They're pretty good about keeping things stocked up in the paint section.


----------



## Spidey7

tardis1916 said:


> It was about a week ago. They're pretty good about keeping things stocked up in the paint section.


Ah, I just picked up my bottle yesterday, so I got the "real" last bottle! Lol


----------



## swhite228

There is a thread about the kit at the RPF where this was posted:









The feeling is the 3 windows are farther back than on the 11ft model.


----------



## Gary K

swhite228 said:


> The feeling is the 3 windows are farther back than on the 11ft model.


Crap! Here's one of the plans that we sent the factory. Looks like they mirrored the lights to the other side of the radial grid line. Methinks Jamie will have words with them.

Gary


----------



## Lou Dalmaso

*portside portholes*

Hey Gary,

was there ever any thoughts given to mirroring those tiny portholes from the starboard under saucer to the port side?

I mean since you mirrored the front quarter bank of windows on the rim of the saucer, then why not those ones? evenif only as indications to drill the rest of the way from the inside


just askin' the kit is tremendous, BTW


----------



## spindrift

Amazing how accurate the Master Replicas version is.....


----------



## Joeysaddress

spindrift said:


> Amazing how accurate the Master Replicas version is.....


I have one of the MR TOS E's and I love it. It's accurate enough for me. I believe Gary K. worked on it too.


----------



## wjplenge

Just a thought on the great Canadian Voodoo Grey shortage of '12. Since it's a military color (FS 16515) can't another paint manufacturer be used? I was just looking at a build up of a Canadian air craft that had it's base color painted with Xtracolor's Canadian Voodoo Grey. I'd say I couldn't see a difference between that model's color and the Testor's paint as shown in the 350 E's painting guide however that wouldn't be useful because I really am colorblind which is why I post this as an open question should I need to pursue that path. I'll be venturing to my local hobby shops tomorrow to see if I locate some, preferably Testors.


----------



## swhite228

Gary K said:


> Crap! Here's one of the plans that we sent the factory. Looks like they mirrored the lights to the other side of the radial grid line. Methinks Jamie will have words with them.
> 
> Gary


Hey Gary
Question about the dots/lights in front of the dorsal...
What are they and are there 3 like the MR and Polar Light kit have or 2 like the picture of the minature.

Also let me take a second to join those folks thanking you for the work you put in to the kit. I was impressed by how solid it was when I taped it up just to see it.
I was so impressed I took it outside and held it up to see it and stars together. It is the first model I've "wooshed"!


----------



## SteveR

Gary K said:


> Looks like they mirrored the lights to the other side of the radial grid line.


Looks like a simple modeler's fix. Maybe Lou could include a drilling template for the compass-impaired?


----------



## Gary K

swhite228 said:


> Hey Gary
> Question about the dots/lights in front of the dorsal...
> What are they and are there 3 like the MR and Polar Light kit have or 2 like the picture of the minature.


There were 2 ports under the saucer when Ed Miarecki received the 11-footer in 1991, but he uncovered a third port when he was sanding the saucer. There are 3 ports in screen caps & publicity photos from the 60s, so the third port was apparently accidentally painted over during a previous restoration. 

Ed also found another hidden porthole over the hangar bay area, but they must have had second thoughts about it because it was painted over before the Production version was ever filmed.

Gary


----------



## Gary K

Lou Dalmaso said:


> Hey Gary,
> 
> was there ever any thoughts given to mirroring those tiny portholes from the starboard under saucer to the port side?
> 
> I mean since you mirrored the front quarter bank of windows on the rim of the saucer, then why not those ones? evenif only as indications to drill the rest of the way from the inside
> 
> 
> just askin' the kit is tremendous, BTW


Thanks. I didn't mirror the stbd portholes because I figured they showed enough of the underside of the saucer during the run of the series that you could fairly easily see that there were no corresponding portholes on the left side of the saucer bulge. I did mirror the windows on the right side of the saucer onto the left side because they occasionally flipped the negatives to show the left side of the ship. 11-footer purists can always paint over the windows that aren't actually on the studio miniature.

Gary


----------



## Sparky

EA Hobby indicates 6 bottles in stock of the Canadian Voo Doo Grey for those looking:

http://eahobby.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=0&products_id=39774


----------



## Ductapeforever

I am looking to pick up an opaque bridge insert from anyone either not using theirs at all or someone who plans on using the clear bridge insert from the lighting kit in theirs.


----------



## Lou Dalmaso

SteveR said:


> Looks like a simple modeler's fix. Maybe Lou could include a drilling template for the compass-impaired?


sounds like a good idea to me. I'll see what I can do.
thanks Steve!


----------



## SteveR

swhite228 said:


> I was so impressed I took it outside and held it up to see it and stars together. It is the first model I've "wooshed"!


Maybe we should each buy two kits: one for lighting and one for wooshing!


----------



## SteveR

Lou Dalmaso said:


> sounds like a good idea to me. I'll see what I can do.
> thanks Steve!


Lou the Responsive! :thumbsup:


----------



## Opus Penguin

Ductapeforever said:


> I am looking to pick up an opaque bridge insert from anyone either not using theirs at all or someone who plans on using the clear bridge insert from the lighting kit in theirs.


PM'd you.


----------



## irishtrek

So exactly how many engraved lines are on the bottom of the saucer that run fron the center to the outer rim??? I'm asking because the pic swhite posted it looks like the 11 ftr. has an extra couple of lines where as the PL 350 has a couple less.


----------



## Gregatron

The incorrect port thingies on the saucer underside should be an easy fix for us modelers, but I would hope that future pressings of the kit can correct the error.

Really, any similar errors should be minor and correctable, based on what I've seen so far. I would just hope that people don't start complaining because of little imperfections like this. Nothing's perfect, folks. But this isn't a big deal. The 1/350 Refit, on the other hand, is like the death of a thousand papercuts, if one is going super-accurate. Right out of the box, this TOS kit should be a breeze by comparison.


And, so far, so good! I haven't even had a chance to fully examine mine, but I love what I'm seeing so far. A HUGE "thank you" to Gary, Jamie, and everyone at Round 2 for bringing this kit to life.

And a special thanks to Gary for his ongoing presence here!


----------



## SteveR

Gregatron said:


> And a special thanks to Gary for his ongoing presence here!


No kidding! :thumbsup:


----------



## Lou Dalmaso

*OK, so you tell me.*

do you think the vinyl sticks up too "think" from the surface of the hull?

I rushed the placement, so the position is a tiny bit off and I know the side pennant is supposed to be red, but I have the black loaded.

It's just a proof of concept at this stage.


----------



## StarshipClass

Lou Dalmaso said:


> do you think the vinyl sticks up too "think" from the surface of the hull?
> 
> I rushed the placement, so the position is a tiny bit off and I know the side pennant is supposed to be red, but I have the black loaded.
> 
> It's just a proof of concept at this stage.


Looks too thick to me. Can it be done in thinner vinyl?


----------



## Model Man

Lou Dalmaso said:


> do you think the vinyl sticks up too "thick" from the surface of the hull?


At most of those photo angles, yes. At scale, those would be a foot or two tall. At some angles of those photos, no. 

Personally, I'd melt the stock decals down with solvaset as best as possible or the superior option of painting masks -which I would prefer for my own build purposes.


----------



## Spidey7

Lou Dalmaso said:


> do you think the vinyl sticks up too "think" from the surface of the hull?
> 
> I rushed the placement, so the position is a tiny bit off and I know the side pennant is supposed to be red, but I have the black loaded.
> 
> It's just a proof of concept at this stage.


It's hard to tell because the pics are so magnified. In the pics the vinyl looks too thick, but from a normal viewing height they might look just fine. 

Personally, I would like to use the negative mask to airbrush on the registry stuff, (and anything else that can be airbrushed). I'm not sure how anyone else feels, but I think that airbrushing as much stuff on it in place of using the decals will make it look better. Regardless of how your masks are to be used, it's really nice looking work!


----------



## Lou Dalmaso

fair enough, I'll see if i can find a thinner mil on the vinyl


----------



## Spidey7

So, since we're talking about portholes, what's the deal with the large, round one on the upper hull, forward of the rust ring? I like it. I think it sets off the "nose" of the Enterprise rather nicely. I've just never seen it before. 

I researched it and read that it was never meant to be a "window", but was actually an access cover to the nose lighting that was lost prior to the Miarecki restoration at the Air & Space museum. As the story goes, the missing access plate was mistaken for a "window" during the restoration and was added onto the filming model in the early 90's. Consequently, it has begun popping up on the more recent Enterprise products including the Master Replicas version. 

So my question is this, it's obvious in pictures from the show that the Enterprise never had that huge, round "window" on its nose. If it really came about by mistake because of a missing access cover, why would Round2 include it on the kit? With as much work as they put into researching the Enterprise, I have to believe that the "window" was originally meant to be there. It can't just be a result of no one checking. I actually LIKE the way it looks, and will be keeping it on my build. I'm just curious as to why we never saw it on the show, and if it really did come about as a mistake due to a missing lightbulb access cover-plate. Anyone know anything more about this?


----------



## Prologic9

You can see it on the show. Best example is probably "the tholian web." 

I was pleasantly surprised to see the instructions tell you exactly how to handle it. It was visible, and some light came through, but it had some paint and/or weathering on it so it was very dim. 

The instructions don't bother debating on if you should do it as a window or whatever, it was there and it's here and you can do what you want with it. But they recommend you put a thin layer of hull paint on it and let some light come through for accuracy. 

(this might be the lighting kit instructions I'm thinking of)


----------



## feek61

In the photo from Dec 1967 you can clearly see the port hole. In the screen caps it is obviously painted over or has a "hatch" over it.









December 1967 Still


----------



## Gary K

Prologic9 said:


> You can see it on the show. Best example is probably "the tholian web."
> 
> I was pleasantly surprised to see the instructions tell you exactly how to handle it. It was visible, and some light came through, but it had some paint and/or weathering on it so it was very dim.
> 
> The instructions don't bother debating on if you should do it as a window or whatever, it was there and it's here and you can do what you want with it. But they recommend you put a thin layer of hull paint on it and let some light come through for accuracy.
> 
> (this might be the lighting kit instructions I'm thinking of)


I'm covering the bow light in greater detail in Pt 3 of my Sci-Fi & Fantasy Modeller article, which I believe will be published in January. I popped it out of the 11-footer's saucer in 1991, and it's simply a 1" diameter acrylic disk that's been sandblasted into translucence. It wasn't as brightly illuminated as the rectangles on the upper saucer due to the fact that the plywood structure below the bow light hindered light from the twin bulbs from reaching the frosted disk. 

In the first photo that feek61 has posted you can see that a streak of weathering half-covers the light. In the 2nd photo look how dimly the middle of the 3 lights at the bow are illuminated. I believe the bow light is still there (as is the streak of weathering), but isn't illuminated because the twin bulbs have shifted outboard of their intended positions. In the degraded image the frosted plastic disk is close enough to the hull color that it blends into invisibility.

I've got a flash-lit snapshot of the 11-footer taken during the series' production, and the bow light is plainly visible. The same photo reveals that the 3 rectangles on top of the saucer (the 4th was painted on) were made from the same sandblasted clear acrylic as the bow light & nacelle domes. Btw, the translucent white rectangles in ALL photos of the 11-footer on display at the NASM are replacements made during the first restoration. If you want to replicate the exact look of the 11-footer, you might want to hit the rectangles & bow light with some 600 grit sandpaper (or similar) to give them a frosted look.

Gary


----------



## Gregatron

Gary K said:


> I've got a flash-lit snapshot of the 11-footer taken during the series' production, and the bow light is plainly visible. The same photo reveals that the 3 rectangles on top of the saucer (the 4th was painted on) were made from the same sandblasted clear acrylic as the bow light & nacelle domes. Btw, the translucent white rectangles in ALL photos of the 11-footer on display at the NASM are replacements made during the first restoration. If you want to replicate the exact look of the 11-footer, you might want to hit the rectangles & bow light with some 600 grit sandpaper (or similar) to give them a frosted look.
> 
> Gary



Were the actual windows and portholes also frosted on the original? I'm not sure I've ever seen that discussed.


----------



## Gary K

Gregatron said:


> Were the actual windows and portholes also frosted on the original? I'm not sure I've ever seen that discussed.


No, they were polished blocks & rods of clear acrylic.

Gary


----------



## Gregatron

Thanks!


----------



## Spidey7

That's awesome info! Really interesting! So the whole "access cover" thing is a myth. I love finding out this sort of stuff. It's so cool knowing the "behind the scenes" stuff about all these little details. 

Gary, (if you don't mind another question), I've always been curious about the "double running lights" on the upper saucer. Each side has a large red or green blinking light right next to a much smaller red or green light. In some representations both larger and smaller are lit and in others only the large one is lit. 

What was the purpose behind having the double running lights on each side instead of just one large, lighted port/starboard blinker on each side?


----------



## irishtrek

Just in case noone else can make it out in that second pic Feek61 put up one can see the 'window' on the top front of the saucer as a little black dot.
On a side note I got a pm suggesting that I change the title for this thread but unfortunatly the soft ware for HT won't allow it. So can a moderator make the change or are we SOL???


----------



## Gary K

Spidey7 said:


> That's awesome info! Really interesting! So the whole "access cover" thing is a myth. I love finding out this sort of stuff. It's so cool knowing the "behind the scenes" stuff about all these little details.
> 
> Gary, (if you don't mind another question), I've always been curious about the "double running lights" on the upper saucer. Each side has a large red or green blinking light right next to a much smaller red or green light. In some representations both larger and smaller are lit and in others only the large one is lit.
> 
> What was the purpose behind having the double running lights on each side instead of just one large, lighted port/starboard blinker on each side?


The smaller running lights were added to the 2nd Pilot model, as were the two large, clear domes. I've never found any indication that either the larger or smaller "lights" were ever illuminated. I think they added the large, blinking red & green nav lights to the Production version to provide more visual "oomph", and simply left the smaller "lights" in place for reasons unknown.

Gary


----------



## Spidey7

Again, that's awesome trivia to know. My thanks, Gary.


----------



## Gregatron

Gary K said:


> The smaller running lights were added to the 2nd Pilot model, as were the two large, clear domes. I've never found any indication that either the larger or smaller "lights" were ever illuminated. I think they added the large, blinking red & green nav lights to the Production version to provide more visual "oomph", and simply left the smaller "lights" in place for reasons unknown.
> 
> Gary



My own research indicated that the teensy lights were there on the first pilot version. The 350 kit's instructions even say to move them inward and reposition them so as to replace the big blinkers in order to replicate the first pilot model.

Are you saying, then, that there were no faux running lights on the first pilot saucer?

I was under the impression that the smaller, faux lights were unchanged/unmoved for all three versions, with the clear domes (second pilot) and red/green blinkers (production) simply stuck next to them.


----------



## Gary K

Gregatron said:


> My own research indicated that the teensy lights were there on the first pilot version. The 350 kit's instructions even say to move them inward and reposition them so as to replace the big blinkers in order to replicate the first pilot model.
> 
> Are you saying, then, that there were no faux running lights on the first pilot saucer?
> 
> I was under the impression that the smaller, faux lights were unchanged/unmoved for all three versions, with the clear domes (second pilot) and red/green blinkers (production) simply stuck next to them.


As far as Petri & I have determined, they glued a couple 1/2" clear hemispheres to the non-electrified 1st Pilot's upper saucer. At 1/350 scale they'd be centered 5 mm from the edge of the saucer. The small, faux running lights on the 2nd Pilot & Production versions were teardrop-shaped and were positioned slightly further outboard.

Gary


----------



## Gregatron

Hmmm. Interesting!

Thanks for the info, as always!


----------



## Chris Pike

Spidey7 said:


> It's hard to tell because the pics are so magnified. In the pics the vinyl looks too thick, but from a normal viewing height they might look just fine.
> 
> Personally, I would like to use the negative mask to airbrush on the registry stuff, (and anything else that can be airbrushed). I'm not sure how anyone else feels, but I think that airbrushing as much stuff on it in place of using the decals will make it look better. Regardless of how your masks are to be used, it's really nice looking work!


yes, and use the low tack vinyl masking film with application tape, that's the way to go - separate masks for each colour of course and use the same bounding box for alignment


----------



## feek61

irishtrek said:


> Just in case noone else can make it out in that second pic Feek61 put up one can see the 'window' on the top front of the saucer as a little black dot.


I'm pretty sure that is grime on the film. I don't see them in any of the other captures from that sequence.


----------



## Opus Penguin

Gary K said:


> Crap! Here's one of the plans that we sent the factory. Looks like they mirrored the lights to the other side of the radial grid line. Methinks Jamie will have words with them.
> 
> Gary


So this positioning in this picture is correct or the way it is on the model is correct? This can easily be fixed with a Dremel and putty.


----------



## Gary K

Gregatron said:


> Speaking of colors, the instructions also don't make it clear whether just the "ball" on the tip of the deflector dish spike should be brass, or if the ball and the collar behind it should be brass (with the rest of the spike being metallic silver).


The deflector dish spike is another feature of the ship that has little in the way of clear, color documentation. In most screen caps it appears to be a brass or silver color. Based on some tantalizing glimpses of the spike in some unpublished photos of the model's rollout, I'm leaning toward painting the entire spike (including its cone-shaped base) silver or aluminum.

Gary


----------



## Lou Dalmaso

something like this?

since the red and black don't touch, you can use the same mask for both, just block off the section you don't want to paint.

and then a tiny one for the yellow chevron


----------



## Spidey7

Lou Dalmaso said:


> something like this?
> 
> since the red and black don't touch, you can use the same mask for both, just block off the section you don't want to paint.
> 
> and then a tiny one for the yellow chevron


Freaking beautiful, Lou! Absolutely beautiful!


----------



## robiwon

Gary K said:


> I'm leaning toward painting the entire spike (including its cone-shaped base) silver or aluminum.
> 
> Gary


Gary, are you going to build one of these? If so, we would all love to follow along!!!!!!! A Blog perhaps?


----------



## feek61

In this cap it appears that the entire spike and base are silver.


----------



## eagledocf15

*Agreed*



Ductapeforever said:


> I am looking to pick up an opaque bridge insert from anyone either not using theirs at all or someone who plans on using the clear bridge insert from the lighting kit in theirs.


Yes I agree with that!


----------



## ClubTepes

So it looks like someone found an inaccuracy in the kit.

Face palm.

Gary's notes were correct.
If your interested in the discussion you can find it here.

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=379232

In the meantime, here is a quick and simple way to create a template to drill new holes in the correct position.

One issue of note, is that the one hole position slightly overlaps.
So unless someone has a better idea, what do people think about filling the old hole with styrene rod rather than putty, so that the material density will be close and not cause the drill bit to wander when creating the new hole?



So here is the fix.

1.) Take clear packing tape and place it over the panel with the holes.


2.) Cut the panel out (leaving a little extra of the packing tape near the hole closet to the grid line).




3). Using a circle template and a fine marker, find the center of each hole and mark on the tape.


4.) Now remove that tape with the marks, and place it on the OPPOSITE side of the saucer (left for right and right for left).


Place it down on the opposite side as indicated using the grid lines as a guide.


Repeat the process for the opposite side.

You have now given yourself the marks for drilling holes on the correct side of the line.
The clear parts should fit in just fine.
I suggest when drilling, start with a very fine bit as a pilot hole and work up to the correct size, one bit at a time to prevent any unwanted 'drift' of the drill bit and from chewing up the plastic.

P.S. I KNEW those recessed panel lines would come in handy.
:thumbsup:


----------



## ClubTepes

SteveR said:


> Looks like a simple modeler's fix. Maybe Lou could include a drilling template for the compass-impaired?


Ok, ok, nobody freak out.

While its never a good feeling to discover that something got past you, here is the quickest way to start to solve the problem.

I'm posting a quick and easy way over on the 'tips and tricks' thread to get proper placement for drilling new holes for the 'compass-impaired'.

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=378454&page=6

P.S. I'm still hoping the mods will make that thread 'sticky' to consolidate all the build tips for this kit.


----------



## Steve H

aw, man, I knew the factory couldn't just...

Well, never mind. Paul will come out with a P.E. template to make drilling easier for us clods who can't master packing tape. 

Anyway, so those are meant to be portholes? I had thought them to be formation lights. I *suspect* to many the difference won't matter so much. It's not like some of the other things that could have happened.


----------



## TrekFX

Yep, silver.


----------



## Lou Dalmaso

my window template set will include a guide as well. just line the one edge against the grid line and the curved edge against the outer curved grid line


----------



## Trek Ace

I noticed that they were misaligned when I was examining and photographing the model parts last week. Easy fix, though - like the few other minor areas of concern with the kit.


----------



## ClubTepes

Trek Ace said:


> ..........Easy fix, though - like the few other minor areas of concern with the kit.


Whaaaaaaaa?
Bottom lip quivers.
Looking for Hari-Kari knife.


----------



## ClubTepes

Lou Dalmaso said:


> my window template set will include a guide as well. just line the one edge against the grid line and the curved edge against the outer curved grid line


Nice Lou,

I suggest though, you make the hole 1/16 as a center for a pilot hole.
I've seen it too many times where someone starts out with the full size bit and the darned thing 'drifts' half the bit diameter before it catches and digs in. Resulting in a misaligned hole.

Ok....... that 'someone' was me.


----------



## Prowler901

Hmmm.... could be. But, sometimes brass can appear very light colored. Depends on the brass. So, for me the jury is still out on that.


----------



## Spidey7

Prowler901 said:


> Hmmm.... could be. But, sometimes brass can appear very light colored. Depends on the brass. So, for me the jury is still out on that.


Really? If you look at TrekFX's screen-cap, I don't see how there could be any question about it. It's solid silver.


----------



## Prowler901

It looks like a light brass to me in that picture. It's very hard to interpret from these old screenshots.


----------



## RossW

That's happened to me more times than I care to count, too ...


----------



## Paulbo

I'm not making an argument one way or the other but ...

I posted a closeup photo of the TOS Enterprise (showing the mini NOMAD probe) with a dime sitting on top of it. One poster asked if the brass etch was stainless steel. Metalics can be difficult to pin down.


----------



## Steve H

Lou Dalmaso said:


> my window template set will include a guide as well. just line the one edge against the grid line and the curved edge against the outer curved grid line


Well, that's a nice idea! Maybe a little bit better than a PE template, because sticking it down is more foolproof than holding a brass plate! 

We live in impressive, amazing times. The old days, nothing, on your own, MAYBE if Paul Newitt did an Assembly Manual for the 1/350th there would be a page with templates to photocopy and lay out.

Now? *zoop zap* Aftermarket on the ball just DAYS after release!

Just amazing. I mean it. Good Job!


----------



## Prologic9

I used some frisket to make the guide so that it's a bit more durable, and some leftover sprue (klingon battlecruiser!) to fill the important hole. 

I figured the rod should be large enough that it's difficult to dry fit. When you put on the glue it will lubricate the rod and slide on through. (/snicker)


----------



## Lou Dalmaso

ClubTepes said:


> Nice Lou,
> 
> I suggest though, you make the hole 1/16 as a center for a pilot hole.
> I've seen it too many times where someone starts out with the full size bit and the darned thing 'drifts' half the bit diameter before it catches and digs in. Resulting in a misaligned hole.
> 
> Ok....... that 'someone' was me.


the set now includes "bullseyes" for the center of these holes. hopefully this will corral those errant drillbits


----------



## PixelMagic

Lou, forgive me as I have not been reading the whole thread, but will you be making painting vinyl masks to airbrush on the registry and stripes?


----------



## Lou Dalmaso

yes, but not right away. the first release will be windows and dome fins and a couple other basic things. 

the advanced set will have registry masks as well as some other stuff in addition to the basic set.

a lot of folks just want windows and they want to get started


----------



## woof359

dome fins ?


----------



## Steve H

woof359 said:


> dome fins ?


or "fan blades" if you prefer, for the rotating fan effect inside the Bussard Collector domes on the nacelles.

Unless I missed something.


----------



## Opus Penguin

Any idea when the windows and fan blade masks will be available for sale?


----------



## woof359

Steve H said:


> or "fan blades" if you prefer, for the rotating fan effect inside the Bussard Collector domes on the nacelles.
> 
> Unless I missed something.


thanks


----------



## feek61

Paulbo said:


> I'm not making an argument one way or the other but ...
> 
> I posted a closeup photo of the TOS Enterprise (showing the mini NOMAD probe) with a dime sitting on top of it. One poster asked if the brass etch was stainless steel. Metalics can be difficult to pin down.


Yes, very true but was is next to an aluminum or stainless piece? I personally don't think there is any debate here; the evidence seems pretty conclusive.


----------



## BruceDownunder

ClubTepes said:


> Nice Lou,
> 
> I suggest though, you make the hole 1/16 as a center for a pilot hole.
> I've seen it too many times where someone starts out with the full size bit and the darned thing 'drifts' half the bit diameter before it catches and digs in. Resulting in a misaligned hole.
> 
> Ok....... that 'someone' was me.


Yep. Never done that before. Said no-one. Ever.


----------



## Petri Blomqvist

feek61 said:


> Yes, very true but was is next to an aluminum or stainless piece? I personally don't think there is any debate here; the evidence seems pretty conclusive.


I agree - I went through dozens upon dozens of reference photos when building my 3D Enterprise model, and that whole spike was almost certainly aluminum/silver colored. The best evidence is in any good quality photo/screen cap of the 2nd pilot version that shows both the nacelle spikes and the deflector spike at the same time - the nacelle spikes have a distinct brass/gold hue to them while the deflector spike does not.

I think in any production version photos where the spike appears to have a brassy color, it's a result of color bleed from the copper deflector, or simply color shift in the film. But I could be wrong of course!


----------



## Hunch

SteveR said:


> No kidding! :thumbsup:


Absolutely! The kit is a thing of beauty and any further info that can be had is well appreciated!:thumbsup:
Thanks so much Gary and all who made this kit possible. Best kit EVER!


----------



## Lou Dalmaso

getting back to the tips and tricks portion of this thread...

I've found it easier to cut apart the window inserts and install them in pieces.

Even if you plan on going all clear (altho, I still think a mixture of clear and tinted looks better) , I've found the inserts lay flatter if you cut them up. something about the contours of the inserts not matching the contours of the insides of the hull exactly (different types of plastic after all) No sense in fighting trying to squeeze the inserts in "whole"


----------



## Paulbo

feek61 said:


> Yes, very true but was is next to an aluminum or stainless piece? I personally don't think there is any debate here; the evidence seems pretty conclusive.





Paulbo said:


> ...with a dime sitting on top of it...


Dimes are silver colored.


----------



## RossW

Good tip, Lou!


----------



## Fozzie

Does anyone know what the little notch on the outer rim (front)of part 42 is for? The instructions don't call it out and I can't determine why it is there.

Part #42 is referenced in Step 10. It is the round piece that holds all the lights in the bussard collector.


----------



## Spidey7

So, for those of us lighting our kits, what's the best way to pre-treat the hull? I've heard to primer just one side, primer both sides, paint the outside black, paint the inside black, paint the outside black and the inside white, paint both sides black, paint one side black and the other side silver, etc. :O

There are SO many pieces of advice on this particular issue. What's the general consensus on the best way to prevent light leak and pre-treat the hull for lighting?


----------



## SteveR

ClubTepes said:


> I'm posting a quick and easy way over on the 'tips and tricks' thread to get proper placement for drilling new holes for the 'compass-impaired'.


Nobody's freaking out; I'm fine with doing it by hand. I'm just suggesting that some people want accuracy but aren't comfortable with their own skill at achieving it, hence the suggestion of a template.


----------



## Gary K

Petri Blomqvist said:


> I agree - I went through dozens upon dozens of reference photos when building my 3D Enterprise model, and that whole spike was almost certainly aluminum/silver colored. The best evidence is in any good quality photo/screen cap of the 2nd pilot version that shows both the nacelle spikes and the deflector spike at the same time - the nacelle spikes have a distinct brass/gold hue to them while the deflector spike does not.
> 
> I think in any production version photos where the spike appears to have a brassy color, it's a result of color bleed from the copper deflector, or simply color shift in the film. But I could be wrong of course!


I'm voting for silver/aluminum, too. Like I said before, in one unpublished, good-quality color photo taken during the 11-footer's rollout the spike appears to be silver, without a trace of gold or brass. For what it's worth, Richard Datin told me that he painted the nacelles' spikes with gold lacquer.

Gary


----------



## Fozzie

The paper instructions say "brass" for part #17 and the painting instructions on the box say silver...so take your pick!


----------



## Ductapeforever

I am bothered by the 'Eyebrows' or landing leg doors on the lower saucer,
I understand that the 11 footer had the concentric deflector grid pattern drawn on with pencil, that is not my issue. What concerns me is the pattern on the kit has the grid engraved on the surface of the doors! 

In every production photo and screen capture, along with the restoration photos I've seen, evidence suggests the doors on the filming miniature are 'smooth'.

Any thoughts, sage advice, or educated opinions appreciated. I've consulted with Doug Drexler and Steve Neill on the subject and am waiting for reply.
Hopeing Greg Jein and Mike Okuda will chime in as well.


----------



## Opus Penguin

Spidey7 said:


> So, for those of us lighting our kits, what's the best way to pre-treat the hull? I've heard to primer just one side, primer both sides, paint the outside black, paint the inside black, paint the outside black and the inside white, paint both sides black, paint one side black and the other side silver, etc. :O
> 
> There are SO many pieces of advice on this particular issue. What's the general consensus on the best way to prevent light leak and pre-treat the hull for lighting?


I am planning on painting the inside black (probably a couple of coats), the paint white over it to help disperse the light. Unless anyone has some better suggestions.


----------



## Paulbo

Fozzie said:


> Does anyone know what the little notch on the outer rim (front)of part 42 is for? The instructions don't call it out and I can't determine why it is there.
> 
> Part #42 is referenced in Step 10. It is the round piece that holds all the lights in the bussard collector.


The tab (on the back of the part) indexes the part with part 41, which has a notch to accept it.


----------



## Lou Dalmaso

Opus Penguin said:


> I am planning on painting the inside black (probably a couple of coats), the paint white over it to help disperse the light. Unless anyone has some better suggestions.


I'd be cautious painting where the strip light modules are going to stick.
maybe put a smal piece of tape there and pull it up before you stick down the LEDs

also after lightblocking the insides, lightly sand any paint off of the mating surfaces. Glue sticks better to plastic than to paint


----------



## Fozzie

Paulbo said:


> The tab (on the back of the part) indexes the part with part 41, which has a notch to accept it.


According to step 10, the side of part #42 with the long cylinders (to hold the "light bulbs") goes forward. On that side of the part there is a little indented notch on the rim, not the side which touches part #41.

I just noticed something else, if I drop part #140 into the hole in part #42 and spin it, it wobbles badly. Either the spindle hole in #42 is off center or the shaft of part #140 is crooked. Anyone else seeing this?

Okay, let me pull out the other two parts. Whoa! Definitely the shaft on the clear parts (#140). The 2nd one is on at least a 10 to 15 degree angle. This will never work. 

Think I can straighten that out by heating the clear parts in hot water...?


----------



## Gregatron

Gary K said:


> No, they were polished blocks & rods of clear acrylic.
> 
> Gary



Oh, hey, what about the upper and lower saucer domes? were the originals polished, or frosted? Thanks!


----------



## TrekFX

Gregatron said:


> Oh, hey, what about the upper and lower saucer domes? were the originals polished, or frosted? Thanks!


The bottom one looks pretty frosty...


----------



## Gary K

Gregatron said:


> Oh, hey, what about the upper and lower saucer domes? were the originals polished, or frosted? Thanks!


Frosted, like the nacelle domes. The nipple on the Production dome is hull-color, with a silver stem & clear red tip. 

And before anybody asks, the Production hangar bay dome is frosted, with a hull-colored base. The Pilot version domes, on the other hand, are clear with NO paint around their bases.

Gary


----------



## TrekFX

As does the top...


----------



## RossW

For those of us who don't yet have the kit (and hence the illustrated instructions), what area are we talking about here? Sounds like the bussard collectors sub-assembly, but I'm not sure.


----------



## Fozzie

RossW said:


> For those of us who don't yet have the kit (and hence the illustrated instructions), what area are we talking about here? Sounds like the bussard collectors sub-assembly, but I'm not sure.


That is correct.

BTW, the instructions are available on the Round 2 web site. There's a link on the product's page.


----------



## RossW

Yeah, I grabbed those but the quality is low so when printed out you can barely make out the text.

If the fan blade clear part wobbles then that could explain what Tom commented on in his video review. I was thinking of replacing the stem with a brass rod to sit over my motor shaft ("That's what she said!") so I can try and align it better.


----------



## RICHjm

It has already been said the Pilot One version had the Canadian Voodoo Grey impulse deck housing color.
It looks like maybe the engines two back top and inner side inter-cooler tubes were of the same color ?


----------



## Gary K

RICHjm said:


> It has already been said the Pilot One version had the Canadian Voodoo Grey impulse deck housing color.
> It looks like maybe the engines two back top and inner side inter-cooler tubes were of the same color.


That's correct. I haven't seen Canadian Voodoo Grey in person because the nearest surviving hobby shops are almost an hour's drive from here, and they're not as well-stocked as they used to be. All you need is a light gray that photographs as white, like a lot of the studio miniatures from Star Wars.

When the 11-footer was delivered by the Production Model Shop the intercoolers and control reactors (to use the Franz Joseph nomenclature) were solid lt gray (except for the wedge-shaped front end of the control reactor, which was hull-color). Before the model was filmed, somebody added five 1/16" ribs to the center part of each tube. The ribbed centers were painted hull-gray, but the ends were left as "white".

Gary


----------



## RICHjm

"(except for the wedge-shaped front end of the control reactor, which was hull-color)"...
...yes and still hadn't received the two bumps on wedge yet.

"Before the model was filmed, somebody added five 1/16" ribs to the center part of each tube. The ribbed centers were painted hull-gray, but the ends were left as "white"."...
...yes,but was this change for the 1st, 2nd or production version? I see it for the second.
Thank you very much Mr. Kerr_RICH.
(sorry I had spelt your name wrong)


----------



## RICHjm

View attachment 164404


16515 Canadian Voodoo Grey


----------



## Gary K

RICHjm said:


> "Before the model was filmed, somebody added five 1/16" ribs to the center part of each tube. The ribbed centers were painted hull-gray, but the ends were left as "white"."...
> ...yes,but was this change for the 1st, 2nd or production version?


All the above. The Rollout version was the only one without ribs.

Gary


----------



## Lou Dalmaso

*the great 3 hole fix or 2012*

OK guys, when they said it was a easy fix, they were right!

even a hamfisted goon such as myself was able to make this change in a few minutes

first, take some sprue that's a little too big around and dremel it down to jam in the old "wrong" holes. 

cut flush to the outside with an xacto.

smear glue over the nubs from the inside.

take my handy-dandy new 3-hole template and position it on the other side of the grid line

mark the center of the new holes and drill. start with a tiny bit and work your way up to the finished size. A round file comes in very handy for this

check your progress with the 3 window insert. it overlaps one of the hole closing nubs, so you'll need to cut that one flush on the inside, too.

Voila! or as the french say...There you go!


----------



## Lou Dalmaso

I just posted my fix for those pesky 3 windows on the underside of the saucer

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?p=4366563#post4366563

pictures and everything:wave:


----------



## RICHjm

Yes and thanks again, 'cause this is the version I am doing before these mods ,the weathering and upper saucer navigation bands and panels were added as finally seen in the "Cage".

View attachment 164409


----------



## RICHjm

Good job and thanks for posting the fix! I'm not at this point yet but, when I am...


----------



## RICHjm

Doesn't look like the Rollout had the numbered position markers on the secondary hull yet either.
Okay I''ll stop now.

RICH.


----------



## swhite228

RossW said:


> Thanks Lou!
> 
> ffejG - Canadian Voodoo Grey **is** discontinued and hard to find, so I'm glad you Yanks can get from Amazon or Testors. Since it's an enamel, they won't ship it to me in Canada. Sigh ...


Not that it will help those in Canada, but if your in the Tucson ,AZ. area the Ace Hardware on 22nd street has 5 bottles left.
You in fact could pick up every color needed except clear red as of 9:30 this morning.

If someone would take the time to paint a small card and have it color matched would the mix ratios help you guys out?


----------



## Gary K

Here's an AutoCAD screen cap showing the exact dimensions & locations of the 3 lower saucer lights.

Gary


----------



## Nova Designs

Nice one Lou! Thanks!


----------



## Lou Dalmaso

ok, so it looks like my template needs to go a hair closer to the gridline

thanks SO much for your imput Gary! It's like having "the Almighty" on speed dial!


----------



## SteveR

Lou, since you're tweaking, are your centers on a straight line or an arc?


----------



## Gary K

Lou Dalmaso said:


> ok, so it looks like my template needs to go a hair closer to the gridline
> 
> thanks SO much for your imput Gary!


Remember, the location of features on the kit may not be accurate to 6 decimal places, like the AutoCAD drawing. I think all you need to do is to mirror the existing lights onto the other side of that radial grid line. That way the clear light inserts wil be sure to fit.



Lou Dalmaso said:


> It's like having "the Almighty" on speed dial!


Um, I don't know if I'd go THAT far! 

Gary


----------



## woof359

is there a site that tells what part number is called ? example I think #49 is an inter cooler but I'm not sure


----------



## onigiri

Grabbed 4 bottles of Voo Doo...just to be safe lol.


----------



## Lou Dalmaso

SteveR said:


> Lou, since you're tweaking, are your centers on a straight line or an arc?


The arc is so slight, it may as well be straight. It's made to match the insert.


----------



## Gary K

woof359 said:


> is there a site that tells what part number is called ? example I think #49 is an inter cooler but I'm not sure


I'm not sure about a website, but per the Franz Joseph plans, Part #49 is generally referred to as an "intercooler", while #47 is a "control reactor". Actually, a number of the parts don't have official names, so for the kit I solicited suggestions from both Rick Sternbach and Andrew Probert - both of whom know their way around a starship. The names are on the banner that Jamie created for Round 2's booth at conventions (and which may appear in Pt 4 of my article for Sci-Fi & Fantsy Modeller). If you have any other questions, just ask.

Gary


----------



## Calamus

Very nice Lou, I guess you could say you took the flaw and sprue-ed it up :lol:
From the looks of it, I think your fix should be no tribble at all...

Ok, enough with my bad attempt at humor and thanks again for this fix!


----------



## roboterkampf

Hi Gary - the rectangular window, highest up on the secondary hull and close to the end of the red line labeled"15" in this gif:

http://culttvman.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/c1a.gif

Is this window present on the First Pilot version? It doesn't seem to be on the Datin & Crew photo:

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/daytonward/9626364/47593/47593_original.jpg

I already cut the styrene out for them - truly a pain at that steep angle, but will merrily putty over if they don't exist on the First Pilot!

Thanks!


----------



## roboterkampf

Also, the group of four windows on the side of the saucer, flanking the three central portholes... two need to be puttied over (again, as seen in this pic)

http://culttvman.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/c1a.gif

Do you know which two should get plugged up? The two closest to the centered portholes?


----------



## Gary K

roboterkampf said:


> Hi Gary - the rectangular window, highest up on the secondary hull and close to the end of the red line labeled"15" in this gif:
> 
> http://culttvman.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/c1a.gif
> 
> Is this window present on the First Pilot version? It doesn't seem to be on the Datin & Crew photo:
> 
> http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/daytonward/9626364/47593/47593_original.jpg
> 
> I already cut the styrene out for them - truly a pain at that steep angle, but will merrily putty over if they don't exist on the First Pilot!
> 
> Thanks!


Not to worry. The window wasn't on the model during its rollout, but it was most definitely on the 1st Pilot version. One of the photos from William McCullars' secret stash clearly shows the window, and you can see it, yourself, in the zoom-in shot at the beginning of "The Cage" (which I believe is the only footage of the newly-constructed 11-footer in the first pilot episode).

Gary


----------



## Gary K

roboterkampf said:


> Also, the group of four windows on the side of the saucer, flanking the three central portholes... two need to be puttied over (again, as seen in this pic)
> 
> http://culttvman.com/main/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/c1a.gif
> 
> Do you know which two should get plugged up? The two closest to the centered portholes?


During the rollout there were only two dark gray windows painted on the front stbd quarter of the saucer, but somebody painted two WHITE windows flanking them for the 1st Pilot. They're almost invisible in screen caps, but they were painted white with a black outline. In a secret & very clear photo I have there are 2 gray and 2 white windows on the LEFT front quarter of the saucer of the 3-footer. The four windows were on the RIGHT front quarter of the 11-footer's saucer, but I'm not sure about the left side. I suspect that they never added the white windows to the left side, following their tradition of not doing any more work on the 11-footer than was necessary.

To recap, the right front quarter windows are white-gray-gray-white, while the left side is your choice of white-gray-gray-white or gray-gray.

Gary


----------



## hal9001

Lou Dalmaso said:


> I just posted my fix for those pesky 3 windows on the underside of the saucer
> 
> http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?p=4366563#post4366563
> 
> pictures and everything:wave:


Shear Genius Lou! Sear Genius.... I bet you had to slave over designing that for minutes and minutes!!  

HAL9001-


----------



## John P

Ductapeforever said:


> I am bothered by the 'Eyebrows' or landing leg doors on the lower saucer,
> I understand that the 11 footer had the concentric deflector grid pattern drawn on with pencil, that is not my issue. What concerns me is the pattern on the kit has the grid engraved on the surface of the doors!
> 
> In every production photo and screen capture, along with the restoration photos I've seen, evidence suggests the doors on the filming miniature are 'smooth'.
> 
> Any thoughts, sage advice, or educated opinions appreciated. I've consulted with Doug Drexler and Steve Neill on the subject and am waiting for reply.
> Hopeing Greg Jein and Mike Okuda will chime in as well.


Gary said (somewhere in all these threads) that they penciled the grid lines right over the "eyebrows," and the kit is therefore accurate.


----------



## StarshipClass

John P said:


> Gary said (somewhere in all these threads) that they penciled the grid lines right over the "eyebrows," and the kit is therefore accurate.


It's accurate to the filming model alright. Nonetheless, I might want to "correct" that particular feature--even if the actual special effects model had it--simply because it doesn't make sense. And this is coming from someone who wanted the grid lines. There are other features of the special effects models that I don't like as well. For example, it is out of round and there are few distortions visible if you study the photographs (and especially if you see it in person from what I've heard). There was also external wiring, etc. that I don't want to replicate.

In other words, my idealization is going to be different from others' idealization. It's all a matter of personal judgement of what is "right" and what is "wrong" to have on the model. It will be interesting to see the different interpretations in addition to all the mods and kit bashing that's going to happen. 


(Just bouncing off what you said, John. Not aiming my comments at you. :wave: )


----------



## roboterkampf

Thanks, Gary!! Putty time!


----------



## Lou Dalmaso

those eyebrows sound like an excellent opportunity for a brass replacement part

just sayin' :tongue:


----------



## jaws62666

Lou Dalmaso said:


> those eyebrows sound like an excellent opportunity for a brass replacement part
> 
> just sayin' :tongue:


Lou are your masks on your way to Cult yet? Any idea on prices yet? Im going crazy not being able to work on this until my light kit comes. My quick buildup is sitting on my table just teasing me.


----------



## Fozzie

The shafts on both of the rotating hemispheres (step 10, part #140) for my Bussard assemblies are severely bent, making them pretty much unusable. Is it possible to straighten them out by heating the clear plastic parts in hot water?

(My guess is they were removed from the mold too quickly, while still hot.)


----------



## StarshipClass

Fozzie said:


> The shafts on both of the rotating hemispheres (step 10, part #140) for my Bussard assemblies are severely bent, making them pretty much unusable. Is it possible to straighten them out by heating the clear plastic parts in hot water?
> 
> (My guess is they were removed from the mold too quickly, while still hot.)


Best bet is to request replacements.:thumbsup:


----------



## Lou Dalmaso

jaws62666 said:


> Lou are your masks on your way to Cult yet? Any idea on prices yet? Im going crazy not being able to work on this until my light kit comes. My quick buildup is sitting on my table just teasing me.


They're being rushed out in tomorrow's mail.

What Steve prices them at is up to him. I expect them to be around 15_20 bucks


----------



## jaws62666

Lou Dalmaso said:


> They're being rushed out in tomorrow's mail.
> 
> What Steve prices them at is up to him. I expect them to be around 15_20 bucks


are these the complete masks ? do they include masks for every window opening, the shuttlebay and fantail too. Also if lighting the nacelles, are there masks for the grills


----------



## feek61

Please post a link to them when they become available (not sure who "Steve" is, lol)


----------



## Gary K

Grrr... I found another minor correction that needs to be made. For some reason the factory made both hatches on the B/C deck (aft of the bridge) too short. Fred Barr's decals are perfect, though. Here's a graphic that shows the proper size & shape of the hatches. Dimensions are measured along the curve of the B/C deck.

Gary


----------



## Captain April

I'd say putty in the lines and trust in the decals.


----------



## Lou Dalmaso

*masks away!*

Here is exactly what is in the basic template set.

all windows are present and accounted for (plus extras)
strips for the inner dome
painting masks for the triangles under the saucer and under the nacelle fronts
3 hole replacement masks
impulse engine masks

in the weeks to come there will be an advanced template set that will include all of these PLUS 
pennant/registry painting masks
full azteks for the saucer and hull (mostly my own design, but with some basis in "reality")

Happy Modeling!


----------



## Paulbo

Thanks for the update, Gary.

Quick question - are the dimensions shown orthagonal or are they along the curve? I ask because if they're orthagonal, I'll convert them to along the curve for people who want to make the update - it won't take much work with an index.


----------



## jaws62666

Lou Dalmaso said:


> Here is exactly what is in the basic template set.
> 
> all windows are present and accounted for (plus extras)
> strips for the inner dome
> painting masks for the triangles under the saucer and under the nacelle fronts
> 3 hole replacement masks
> impulse engine masks
> 
> in the weeks to come there will be an advanced template set that will include all of these PLUS
> pennant/registry painting masks
> full azteks for the saucer and hull (mostly my own design, but with some basis in "reality")
> 
> Happy Modeling!


Thanks Lou are the masks cut out or do they have perforations so they just pop off the sheet


----------



## Paulbo

jaws62666 said:


> Thanks Lou are the masks cut out or do they have perforations so they just pop off the sheet


I don't mean to answer for another poster, but ...

Lou's masks are self-adhesive vinyl and stuck to a backing film. They're cut all the way through - just lift the mask from the backing and place it on your kit.


----------



## jaws62666

Paulbo said:


> I don't mean to answer for another poster, but ...
> 
> Lou's masks are self-adhesive vinyl and stuck to a backing film. They're cut all the way through - just lift the mask from the backing and place it on your kit.


Thanks Paul


----------



## Gary K

Paulbo said:


> Thanks for the update, Gary.
> 
> Quick question - are the dimensions shown orthagonal or are they along the curve? I ask because if they're orthagonal, I'll convert them to along the curve for people who want to make the update - it won't take much work with an index.


The dimensions are along the curve - the easy way to do it.

Gary


----------



## Epsilon

Now almost finished with my (perhaps first pass) of the entire kit, I can give you two HUGE notes:

1) Make sure to mask the bottom of the pylons (that fit into the secondary hull) before even priming it!!! To say that this is a snug fit is an understatement of galactic proportions!!! Had a rough time sanding and shaving back down these parts to even make them fit at all!

2) don't be a dumba$$ like I was. Be SURE that the stack of discs (parts 40, 39, and 38) between the bussard assembly and the rest of the warp engine are in the proper order, as they can be* reversed and still work *UNFORTUNATELY!)

That said, it still makes a very handsome kit, I have a few details yet to finish on mine so far (dull coat on most of it, deciding on what I should do with the Bussard main dome - either dull coat or scrub it underneath) and a few other details. 

Pics attached...


----------



## Trek Ace

Lou Dalmaso said:


> Here is exactly what is in the basic template set.
> 
> all windows are present and accounted for (plus extras)
> strips for the inner dome
> painting masks for the triangles under the saucer and under the nacelle fronts
> 3 hole replacement masks
> impulse engine masks
> 
> in the weeks to come there will be an advanced template set that will include all of these PLUS
> pennant/registry painting masks
> full azteks for the saucer and hull (mostly my own design, but with some basis in "reality")
> 
> Happy Modeling!


These are PERFECT, Lou!

You are getting these things out in record time. Have you even slept after receiving your kit?


----------



## jaws62666

Epsilon said:


> Now almost finished with my (perhaps first pass) of the entire kit, I can give you two HUGE notes:
> 
> 1) Make sure to mask the bottom of the pylons (that fit into the secondary hull) before even priming it!!! To say that this is a snug fit is an understatement of galactic proportions!!! Had a rough time sanding and shaving back down these parts to even make them fit at all!
> 
> 2) don't be a dumba$$ like I was. Be SURE that the stack of discs (parts 40, 39, and 38) between the bussard assembly and the rest of the warp engine are in the proper order, as they can be* reversed and still work *UNFORTUNATELY!)
> 
> That said, it still makes a very handsome kit, I have a few details yet to finish on mine so far (dull coat on most of it, deciding on what I should do with the Bussard main dome - either dull coat or scrub it underneath) and a few other details.
> 
> Pics attached...


wow that was quick. No lighting or shuttle bay detail? I hear you with the nacelle pylons. Even without putting the locks in the hull, it is a struggle fitting in the holes. Definately some trimming needed


----------



## Opus Penguin

Lou Dalmaso said:


> I'd be cautious painting where the strip light modules are going to stick.
> maybe put a smal piece of tape there and pull it up before you stick down the LEDs
> 
> also after lightblocking the insides, lightly sand any paint off of the mating surfaces. Glue sticks better to plastic than to paint


Good points. Thanks for the tips.


----------



## SusieQ

Fozzie said:


> According to step 10, the side of part #42 with the long cylinders (to hold the "light bulbs") goes forward. On that side of the part there is a little indented notch on the rim, not the side which touches part #41.


The notch in part #42 is for orienting part #139 correctly.


----------



## Fozzie

Magnificent! :thumbsup:


----------



## Fozzie

SusieQ said:


> The notch in part #42 is for orienting part #139 correctly.


Ah! And now I know why I didn't realize that. I've been testing fitting with the pilot nacelle caps instead of part #139--which don't have the key.

Thank you!


----------



## RossW

Lou - will you be able to sell the registry/pennant masks separate from the azteks?


----------



## Prowler901

Thanks for the tips Epsilon. And, beautiful build too. :thumbsup:


----------



## Opus Penguin

Gary K said:


> Grrr... I found another minor correction that needs to be made. For some reason the factory made both hatches on the B/C deck (aft of the bridge) too short. Fred Barr's decals are perfect, though. Here's a graphic that shows the proper size & shape of the hatches. Dimensions are measured along the curve of the B/C deck.
> 
> Gary


Where can you get the set of correct decals? Are the Fred Barr decals the ones that come with the kit?


----------



## Prowler901

Opus Penguin said:


> Where can you get the set of correct decals?


I believe that the decals that came in the kit are correct as those are the ones Fred Barr designed.


----------



## kenlee

feek61 said:


> Please post a link to them when they become available (not sure who "Steve" is, lol)


Steve Iverson, owner of CultTvMan, his hobby shop is here: http://www.culttvmanshop.com/


----------



## feek61

kenlee said:


> Steve Iverson, owner of CultTvMan, his hobby shop is here: http://www.culttvmanshop.com/


Thank you!!!


----------



## Spidey7

I'm not sure if my B/C deck windows are malformed. Just wanted to check with a few others. The smaller windows to either side of the 4 rectangular ones are shaped oddly. Instead of being circular, they're kinda shaped like the continent of Africa. I might be able to putty and re-drill them if that's just how they're coming out of the molds. On the other hand, if mine is just a bad pull then maybe I'll get another one. Anyone else have these odd shaped openings?


----------



## Trek Ace

You're just experiencing the limitations of the injection molding process. Most of the teardrop kit parts have misshapen round ports because of the molds mating top and bottom, instead of the angle matching the ports to make them perfectly round.

The simplest fix is to add a little material behind the ports and re-drill to make them round.


----------



## RSN

Seems like there a quite a few "problems" with the "Holy Grail" of kits. Lots of little things that need to "fixed". It looks great to me as is and I doubt anyone other than people on this board would ever notice them, but it just shows that no matter how much time and money is spent, nothing will ever be perfect.


----------



## BruceDownunder

Trekworks has three very informative videos up at the moment showing lighting and construction tips for the shuttle craft and secondary hull. 
http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=relmfu&v=18w_ib_gB0s


----------



## Spidey7

RSN said:


> Seems like there a quite a few "problems" with the "Holy Grail" of kits. Lots of little things that need to "fixed". It looks great to me as is and I doubt anyone other than people on this board would ever notice them, but it just shows that no matter how much time and money is spent, nothing will ever be perfect.


To me, "fixing problems" is part of the fun of building a model kit. I think what makes this kit a "grail" isn't that it's perfect with no flaws. It's that it's 1:350 scale, a whole lot of fun to work on, and a product in which it's obvious that a great deal of love and commitment went into it before it was even being sealed in plastic and set on the store shelves.


----------



## Chuck_P.R.

Gary K said:


> Grrr... I found another minor correction that needs to be made. For some reason the factory made both hatches on the B/C deck (aft of the bridge) too short. Fred Barr's decals are perfect, though. Here's a graphic that shows the proper size & shape of the hatches. Dimensions are measured along the curve of the B/C deck.
> 
> Gary


This 1701 Club stuff is all well and good young man . . .

But don't forget to do your 1/32nd scale Galilleo homework!!!

It's a school night and there will be a pop test this week!


----------



## ClubTepes

Prologic9 said:


> I used some frisket to make the guide so that it's a bit more durable, and some leftover sprue (klingon battlecruiser!) to fill the important hole.
> 
> I figured the rod should be large enough that it's difficult to dry fit. When you put on the glue it will lubricate the rod and slide on through. (/snicker)


The Sprue is a good idea that I didn't think of.
I was thinking of evergreen.
If you use the sprue from the kit, then the density should match as well as the color.

Nice guys.


----------



## Havok69

BruceDownunder said:


> Trekworks has three very informative videos up at the moment showing lighting and construction tips for the shuttle craft and secondary hull.
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=relmfu&v=18w_ib_gB0s


Thanks for the link. It's whack on computers though. Here's a better one for the computer users:

http://www.youtube.com/user/TrekWorks


----------



## Trek Ace

I've noted a lot of needed fixes, alterations and modifications over the past two weeks since I first opened the box. All of them are minor, and relatively easy to address. This doesn't take away my enjoyment in finally having this kit one iota. I have many more of these kits on order, and I will be fully prepared to take them on once they arrive.


----------



## Paulbo

Gary K said:


> Grrr... I found another minor correction that needs to be made. For some reason the factory made both hatches on the B/C deck (aft of the bridge) too short. ... *Dimensions are measured along the curve of the B/C deck.*
> 
> Gary





Paulbo said:


> ...Quick question - are the dimensions shown orthagonal or are they along the curve? ...





Gary K said:


> The dimensions are along the curve - the easy way to do it.
> 
> Gary


You know, if I'd read a little closer I would have answered my own question


----------



## woof359

*time to start*

got the day off, better half is at work so i decided to start cutting open bags and freeing parts,

almost cut off the mounting pin for the deflector dish mount, gotta be more observant,

found one of my plastic bags had been ripped open by hand and the ball for the back of the engine was rolling around loose in the box, maybe some one replaced a bad part along the line ?

Impressed with how heavy the parts are. This is the kit I have been waiting for !

Many Thanks:thumbsup:


----------



## woof359

I work under a flouresant light like a lot of you,and Am I the only one that think this looks a little to greenishhhhhhhh, I held an engine half up to the paint chart on the box and it matches 100%, so I took the engine outside into the sun light, its looks different, I was gonna use Tam AS-7 in a rattle can but IM not satified with that either, gonna take a piece of spru with me to the LHS to compare and get something a little more whitishhh


----------



## Trek Ace

A few years ago, I took my original _Enterprise_ color chip chart to a local custom automotive paint dealer, and had several pints of color-matched custom automotive lacquer paint made. They have lasted for many years, and I plan on using these same paints for the PL 1/350 models.

This is far cheaper than using those expensive, tiny jars of Testors or Tamiya paints and trying to keep consistent custom mixes from one to the next.


----------



## Gregatron

I noticed that the pilot part instructions' diagrams are slightly modified reuses of the decal placement diagrams from the 1/1000 kit.

As a result, there are a few accuracy problems (like too many windows in the forward-facing cluster on the lower saucer for the first pilot version, and no notation to fill the lights on the saucer rim at 3:00/9:00 or to remove the half-rounds at the base of each landing gear panel).


----------



## Gregatron

Captain April said:


> I'd say putty in the lines and trust in the decals.



Since (as I understand it) the landing gear hatches are the only ones scribed in on the real model, I'd say that's sound advice!


----------



## Gregatron

Lou Dalmaso said:


> Here is exactly what is in the basic template set.
> 
> all windows are present and accounted for (plus extras)
> strips for the inner dome
> painting masks for the triangles under the saucer and under the nacelle fronts
> 3 hole replacement masks
> impulse engine masks
> 
> in the weeks to come there will be an advanced template set that will include all of these PLUS
> pennant/registry painting masks
> full azteks for the saucer and hull (mostly my own design, but with some basis in "reality")
> 
> Happy Modeling!



Any plans for enhanced templates without the aztecs?

Alternatively, I think it wouldn't be all that hard to use wedge-shaped aztec-type masks as a template for penciling on gridlines, if one wants to go that route...


----------



## Chuck_P.R.

Did they mean to make this a sticky and something happened to it?

Updates no longer seem to bring it back up to the current thread list page.


----------



## MGagen

Trek Ace said:


> A few years ago, I took my original _Enterprise_ color chip chart to a local custom automotive paint dealer, and had several pints of color-matched custom automotive lacquer paint made.


Trek ACE,

I seem to recall a post where you mentioned matching the hull color circa '67 and found that Pactra Aero Blue was a good match. Is that what you had the auto guys match recently?

M.


----------



## Spidey7

I just spoke to someone at Round2, (AutoWorld). He said that they expect to have the "Complete Accessory Pack" in hand and shipping out within the next 2-3 days. He said that there's still NO WORD on when they might expect to have the solo lighting kits in hand or shipping. So Yay/Ugh, depending on what you've ordered.


----------



## Opus Penguin

I ordered the Complete Accessory Pack from CultTVMan. Hopefully they get it at the same time.


----------



## Spidey7

Opus Penguin said:


> I ordered the Complete Accessory Pack from CultTVMan. Hopefully they get it at the same time.


Yeah, I have no idea about that. The Round2 guy didn't mention it.


----------



## whereisanykey

Well that sucks. They're ready to send the accessory pack and I'm still in "Processing" mode almost a month now. Not only that, when I sent a couple emails, they come back Mail Undeliverable.


----------



## Opus Penguin

That's why I won't use Autoworld again. I don't trust their shipping department.


----------



## Opus Penguin

Well bummer .... I was going to Florida next week and one of my stops was going to be the Star Trek Exhibition across from Universal Studios in Orlando. I had hoped to get a picture in the command chair on TOS bridge wearing my 1701 Club T-shirt. Unfortunately, the exhibit closed and has moved on to Malaysia.


----------



## Prologic9

So I took a _Shady Cove _chip to Sherwin Williams to see if they could mix a flat oil. They couldn't, best they could do was an eggshell/satin finish. I figured it was better than gloss and had them mix a quart. It took a while to match the color but they got it perfect in the end. 

So here it is on my spare bridge module. I'm shocked (*shocked!*) to see how closely it matches the plastic. If not for the translucency of the model it would be near impossible to tell them apart.


----------



## SteveR

This looks interesting. Apparently they'll match your colour ... in spray paint. Hmm ...

http://www.myperfectcolor.com/en/color/71210_Ace-193-D-Shady-Cove


----------



## JGG1701

Yes but is it enamel , lacquer , or what???
-Jim


----------



## Opus Penguin

Which would be the best to work with? Enamel, oil, acrylic, etc. Especially for airbrushes? I believe the ACE one is enamel but am not sure.


----------



## SteveR

JGG1701 said:


> Yes but is it enamel , lacquer , or what???
> -Jim


If you click on the "select paint" button and scroll down you can choose alkyd, lacquer or primer in spray cans. Apparently.

(I didn't share a link to that because it's the same URL.)


----------



## Opus Penguin

Spidey7 said:


> I just spoke to someone at Round2, (AutoWorld). He said that they expect to have the "Complete Accessory Pack" in hand and shipping out within the next 2-3 days. He said that there's still NO WORD on when they might expect to have the solo lighting kits in hand or shipping. So Yay/Ugh, depending on what you've ordered.


CultTVMan reports they will have the combo kit is 1-2 weeks. He is about to collect preorder payments.


----------



## Hunch

Finaly got all the grid lines filled and am working on correcting the three holes on the bottom of the saucer. I should be ready way before the light kits actualy start shipping. Plenty of time to fix any other flaws that should show up.
By the way, the grid lines were a pain in the butt to make totaly dissapear! Glad thats over.


----------



## Trekkriffic

Opus Penguin said:


> Which would be the best to work with? Enamel, oil, acrylic, etc. Especially for airbrushes? I believe the ACE one is enamel but am not sure.


The ACE is a gloss oil-based enamel.


----------



## dreadnaught726

My main concern with the build is developing a painting strategy. I really don't cherish masking all the windows so I may use the same technique I used with the Seaview which was to paint the hull pieces before assembly, put in the windows, then cement the halves together. I woud then address the seams carefully, mask off the seam ares and piant. The key here is to be sure you use the same bottle/can/mix of color to be sure you can "feather" the color to match. Worked well on the Seaview and other kits I have built. Of course my main cocern is where to display this jewel. I have very little room for a piece this big.


----------



## dreadnaught726

Be careful using automotive paints. These can be very "hot" and unless you use a suitable plastic friendly primer, it could turn your pieces into soup.


----------



## wjplenge

Trekkriffic said:


> The ACE is a gloss oil-based enamel.


The gloss may be enamel, but they offer it as gloss, satin and flat. The satin is an acrylic, at least it just globs in thinner but water thins it out just fine. (Yeah I assumed it was oil too, hence thinning it with thinner and noticed it wouldn't mix.) I didn't get the flat but think that is probably acrylic also.

My other lesson learned when testing it on various primers was to not use it on a metallic primer coat otherwise if you mask it with masking tape it will pull off when you remove the tape. No such problems with automotive primer or plain old spray gloss (white or black.)


----------



## dreadnaught726

Has anyone had any difficulties with the supplied decals? I have noticed in previous PL kits the decals have a tendency to tear or split while applying.


----------



## dreadnaught726

wjplenge said:


> Did Testors stop making it? They still list it on their site, though do have it marked "Limited Availablility" http://www.testors.com/search?q=voodoo&.x=0&.y=0


Testors Light Grey seems to be a close match to Canadian Voodoo grey.


----------



## wjplenge

Xtra Color also makes a Candian Voodoo Grey, since it's a federal standard color they should match. If someone is trying to match the color this may help, Art-Paints.com list it's componant colors as:

CMYK # 16, 12, 17, 0
RGB # 212, 212, 204


----------



## Gregatron

My LHS had five bottle of Voodoo Gray in stock when I went today.

I snagged three. Just in case!


----------



## woof359

*paint for the hull*

i brought home 4 differant rattle cans of paint, differant shades of grey to try out on the hull


----------



## Fozzie

woof359 said:


> i brought home 4 differant rattle cans of paint, differant shades of grey to try out on the hull


Since I don't like the green tint, I brought home 4 Model Master jars and one Tamiya of different shades of gray...


----------



## jaws62666

Tamiya has a nice grey green shade spray AS29 that looks pretty good for the hull


----------



## dreadnaught726

Tamiya IJN light grey in spray can seems to be a perfect match to the molded color.


----------



## woof359

Tam AS2 inj , yep got it, seems to be close after lying the aft engine ball on top the cap, less green than the plastic color


----------



## dreadnaught726

It appears the controversy over the proper color of rhe Enterprise centers on whether you want it to look like the studio model or how it appears with lighting on screen. For example I have been told that the neck on the studio model was painted a pale blue but yet this is not really noticible on screen. As for my build I am going with the suggested grey/green (Tamiya IJN light grey)


----------



## feek61

dreadnaught726 said:


> It appears the controversy over the proper color of rhe Enterprise centers on whether you want it to look like the studio model or how it appears with lighting on screen. For example I have been told that the neck on the studio model was painted a pale blue but yet this is not really noticible on screen. As for my build I am going with the suggested grey/green (Tamiya IJN light grey)


I think the blue pylon was on the pilot versions only.


----------



## woof359

i think they knew under studio lights what color the prop would have to be to come out as white on Tv's of the 60s. It was ment to be white in the real world. Im watching the menagerie right now, there using the second pilot ship and it comes out as white on the CRT TV.


----------



## Fozzie

woof359 said:


> i think they knew under studio lights what color the prop would have to be to come out as white on Tv's of the 60s. It was ment to be white in the real world. Im watching the menagerie right now, there using the second pilot ship and it comes out as white on the CRT TV.


I'm leaning heavily towards Model Master's Light Gray (4765) as my base coat at the moment.


----------



## dreadnaught726

Captain April said:


> Ya might wanna switch that Paramount logo for a CBS one. Paramount Studios hasn't had any control over TOS for the past few years.


CBS and Paramount are owned by the same company, I believe it is ViaCom.


----------



## robn1

Prologic9 said:


> ...They couldn't, best they could do was an eggshell/satin finish. I figured it was better than gloss and had them mix a quart...


Gloss would be better for applying decals, it would save the step of a gloss coat. Whenever I do a build with decals, I use gloss paints when available. Then finish with clear flat.



Fozzie said:


> I'm leaning heavily towards Model Master's Light Gray (4765) as my base coat at the moment.


I've been thinking gull gray is closer.

I've used alkyd (oil based enamels) on phaser builds and it has a very tough finish. By combining with Valspar hardener the flat paints stay flat after handling, I can even scratch it with my finger nail and it stays flat. Thin it with odorless mineral spirits or acetone.


----------



## ffejG

Greetings robn1! It's a pleasure to see you here on HT now. I am a lurker over at the RPF and I have all your phaser builds bookmarked. Your advice and experience on those is invaluable. I'm sure you will have great things to show us on an Enterprise build too.


----------



## mach7

Agreed! It's nice to see you here robn1! 

I have one of your phaser1 parts packs and love it.

Welcome.

I'm leaning toward a very light grey. Possibly just the Tamiya grey primer hit with a gloss coat for the decals and then a satin or matt top coat after decals.
It won't have the green hints, but I think it will look good.


----------



## Opus Penguin

There is a thread on a problem with the inner dome warping at this link:

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=379930

Anyone got tips on how this can be fixed? Seems to be a problem in many of the kits.


----------



## BARRYZ28

Post # 11 in the following thread.
http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=379930



Opus Penguin said:


> There is a thread on a problem with the inner dome warping at this link:
> 
> http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=379930
> 
> Anyone got tips on how this can be fixed? Seems to be a problem in many of the kits.


----------



## Paulbo

Opus Penguin said:


> ...Anyone got tips on how this can be fixed? Seems to be a problem in many of the kits.


One could always request replacement parts: http://round2models.com/replacement/


----------



## Opus Penguin

Paulbo said:


> One could always request replacement parts: http://round2models.com/replacement/


Hopefully they don't replace with another one that is warped.


----------



## Hunch

OK, if you are going to fill the grid lines be prepared for some good work ahead of you. Because it takes up so much space on the surface of the discs you will find that there are areas that did not fill as well as other areas did. This means more work than you would usualy have to do to correct something like this. Its not hard work (well, it was for me as I have arthritis) just a lot of it. Add to that the normal three to four times of filling/sanding.
The end results are well worth it. I taped off the areas that I did not want the bondo (red body filler) to touch as it tends to melt plastic slightly and I wanted to keep a uniformity to the curve of the dish and the end result was this (for the straight lines only, one step at a time).

After hellish sanding and filling (we've all been there) I got a nice smooth surface that will realy capture the feel of the filming miniature.



And heres the bottom dish in progress. Its actualy finished now and looks great. Notice the three top circular lines that I have filled with tape so that they will remain on the finished model. I also taped over the landing leg/triangles so they will still be there in the end.
I did notice along the way some sink holes and what not but that is to be expected for a kit of this size. Great kit, now that it has no annoying grid lines!:wave:



So, all in all, it was certainly worth getting rid of the lines. I may decide NOT to even add the pencil lines later as they were not noticeable on the original broadcast but we'll see...


----------



## SteveR

Hunch said:


>


Sweet!


----------



## Opus Penguin

Need a little advice. I just called Ace Hardware and they can do the Shady Cove (D35-4) and they had a water-based Aklyd version. I have asked to see what other formats he has it in since this does not sound like it would work. What type of paint is recommended?

UPDATE: Ok I was also told they can mix an oil/based version (gloss only but I figure Dullcoat can be sprayed on afterward) which is Ruststop 225-A320. Does this sound like it would work? I will be using an airbrush so need to know what type thinner to use.

Also, I just ordered two spray cans of Mr. Surfacer 1000 primer. I tried for 500 but couldn't find it as a spray anywhere. I hope this one works ok.


----------



## ffejG

Opus Penguin said:


> Ok I was also told they can mix an oil/based version (gloss only but I figure Dullcoat can be sprayed on afterward) which is Ruststop 225-A320. Does this sound like it would work? I will be using an airbrush so need to know what type thinner to use.


Check out post 373 by robn1. He recommends odorless mineral spirits or acetone. If you check out his phaser builds on the RPF you will see he has a lot of experience - and success with this type of paint. 

robn1 - I have seen your recommendations about using the hardener before. From what I see it is made to dump the whole can in a gallon of paint. How do you mix it for painting in small batches? What ratios?


----------



## TrekFX

First, I reviewed this whole thread to make sure I wasn't repeating... 

I think we're going to need an index!

Make sure to completely remove the sprue tabs from copper-colored concentric-ring part 14 so it sets fully inside the well in hull part 12.

I was a bit unsure about the alignment of the parts of the forward engineering hull. The instructions suggest there's a key on part 14, but I didn't find any on the part. Proper alignment seems to be with the flat section on the mounting post (it mates directly to the back of the deflector dish) aligned horizontally. The hole in part 14 for the post will have the flat oriented horizontally, and the triangular pattern of ejector-pin marks inside will be with the "point" at 6 or 12 o'clock.

Any definitive call on this? I'd hate to mess up the polarity and have someone get zonked by an asteroid because of a deflector failure...


----------



## Gregatron

I believe the green and amber dorsal/secondary hull windows will be covered by the lighting kit's parts, but what about the mesh/screens behind a few of the dorsal windows?


Also, The kit's clear impulse engine vents appear to be completely smooth. Didn't the 11-footer have a ribbed/grooved texture on them, as can be seen in close-up photos?


----------



## Captain April

That wasn't a grooved texture, that was wood grain.


----------



## robn1

Thanks for the welcomes, fellas :wave:



ffejG said:


> Check out post 373 by robn1. He recommends odorless mineral spirits or acetone. If you check out his phaser builds on the RPF you will see he has a lot of experience - and success with this type of paint.
> 
> robn1 - I have seen your recommendations about using the hardener before. From what I see it is made to dump the whole can in a gallon of paint. How do you mix it for painting in small batches? What ratios?


The ratio works out to 16:1, but isn't critical. If you use the hardener only add it to the amount you plan to use at that time. After a 30min activation period, you'll have an 8 hour window to use the paint. After then it gets very thick. I had some left over about 1/2in deep in the cup, after a week it was as hard as cured resin.

These oil based paints need 12 hours to dry.


----------



## Prologic9

Captain April said:


> That wasn't a grooved texture, that was wood grain.


There was some kind of woven material that was placed inside the recessed impulse rectangles. You can see it in Smith. pics from the 70's and 80's. I think currently it's just painted a dark grey. 

Logically, I think they used it on the show because the material would absorb the light and appear very black. But there are no references available I know of that can resolve that detail from the production era.

--

If you're not going to light the impulse engines, a dark grey or even black will work fine. 

If you are lighting them, finding a way to add a grid texture will make it look a lot more interesting.


----------



## Prowler901

The photo-etch accessory pack from R2 includes grills for the impulse engines.


----------



## Prologic9

Well my hardware store oil paint didn't work out. It was not fully dry the next day (but I didn't use any kind of additive, didn't know they existed). And when properly thinned for modeling it was very runny and had poor coverage. I'm going to want something much more versatile. 

My plan now is to just mix the color myself using Model Masters paint. I feel silly now that I've wasted so much effort trying to find a simple solution (and $20!) when I should have just done this from the start. Lesson learned (probably not). 

Anyways, the shady cove chip was given to us by Richard C. Datin, who built the original filming models. 

His formula for a Model Masters mix was;


23-25 parts Insignia White, Testors# 1745
6 parts Flat Gull Grey, Testors# 1730
1 part Sac Bomber Green, Testors# 1793

I mixed this up last night and was very pleased. I added just a drop of blue as well and it's very close to Shady Cove. The best part is you can change it easily. If you want it a little lighter or darker, use a little less/more grey. Want more or less green? Well I'm not going to tell you how to do that one. :devil:


----------



## idman

Steve Neils 66 inch enterprise color was a 2 to1 mix of white and light ghost grey which looks great to me so I'm gonna go that way instead of trying to mix colors with the craft acrylics..He got this info from Doug Drexler..


----------



## Trekkriffic

Prologic9 said:


> Well my hardware store oil paint didn't work out. It was not fully dry the next day (but I didn't use any kind of additive, didn't know they existed). And when properly thinned for modeling it was very runny and had poor coverage. I'm going to want something much more versatile.


The ACE Shady Cove can take 3-4 days to fully cure. At least that's what I found out when I used it on my 1/1000 Enterprise build. I thinned it with airbrush thinner to the consistency of milk and it went on fine.


----------



## whereisanykey

idman said:


> Steve Neils 66 inch enterprise color was a 2 to1 mix of white and light ghost grey which looks great to me so I'm gonna go that way instead of trying to mix colors with the craft acrylics..He got this info from Doug Drexler..


I was considering the same thing. I haven't finished Steve's Big E yet to compare but considering the scale, the color May need to be modified for a smaller scale.


----------



## Prologic9

Trekkriffic said:


> The ACE Shady Cove can take 3-4 days to fully cure. At least that's what I found out when I used it on my 1/1000 Enterprise build. I thinned it with airbrush thinner to the consistency of milk and it went on fine.


That's what I imagined it would take (I stripped the paint off so I could use it for further experiments)

I'm planning on extensive weathering (in terms of effort, not appearance), and there's definitely going to be some trial and error. I just can't work with that. 

The model masters paint worked like... model masters paint. Here's shot of it sprayed on only the camera facing side of the bridge module. The other half is bare.


----------



## Opus Penguin

Trekkriffic said:


> The ACE Shady Cove can take 3-4 days to fully cure. At least that's what I found out when I used it on my 1/1000 Enterprise build. I thinned it with airbrush thinner to the consistency of milk and it went on fine.


I will be painting my model in an area where it can be left for a week before I would be able to get back to it, so this may still be fine for me. So it is oil-based what you used? I'd really like to use this color so am hoping it will be fine.


----------



## idman

whereisanykey said:


> I was considering the same thing. I haven't finished Steve's Big E yet to compare but considering the scale, the color May need to be modified for a smaller scale.


well since It's half the size of steve neil's enterprise perhaps then a 1 to 1 mix may work?


----------



## Gary K

TrekFX said:


> I was a bit unsure about the alignment of the parts of the forward engineering hull. The instructions suggest there's a key on part 14, but I didn't find any on the part. Proper alignment seems to be with the flat section on the mounting post (it mates directly to the back of the deflector dish) aligned horizontally. The hole in part 14 for the post will have the flat oriented horizontally, and the triangular pattern of ejector-pin marks inside will be with the "point" at 6 or 12 o'clock.
> 
> Any definitive call on this? I'd hate to mess up the polarity and have someone get zonked by an asteroid because of a deflector failure...


The definitive call is this: you can orient the deflector dish support either way. On the 11-footer the deflector housing (Pt 14 in the kit) wasn't keyed in any way, and I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't pay close attention to the way it & the attached dish were oriented. The wedge-shaped end of the support shaft (Pt 15) is supposed to represent a hinged backing that allows the dish to pivot back & forth. On the studio plans the wedge is oriented vertically, which would allow the dish to pivot up & down. In one screen cap I've seen (I forget which episode it's from) the wedge is oriented sideways, which would make the dish swing back & forth. I figure the orientation of the support shaft is the builder's choice.

Gary


----------



## Gary K

Gregatron said:


> I believe the green and amber dorsal/secondary hull windows will be covered by the lighting kit's parts, but what about the mesh/screens behind a few of the dorsal windows?


In the column of 5 dorsal windows the next-to-bottom window had window screen (oriented diagonally) behind it. In the row of five windows the 2nd window from the front had a piece of pylon grill (oriented sideways) behind it.



Gregatron said:


> Also, The kit's clear impulse engine vents appear to be completely smooth. Didn't the 11-footer have a ribbed/grooved texture on them, as can be seen in close-up photos?


The 11-footer simply had some dark gray cloth material affixed to 1/16" deep recesses in the wooden implulse deck. On the PL kit the original plan was to make one side of the clear reversible vent smooth and the other side ridged, so the modeler would have options for the appearance of the vents, but that got overlooked in the rush to make 1001 corrections/modifications to the kit. The standard kit includes decals of some hypothetical ridges I designed (based on the vent screens of the Refit), and the etched metal supplemental kit will include 3D versions of the screens. Paul Bodensiek's etched metal set includes "plain" screens.

Gary


----------



## TrekFX

Gary K said:


> In one screen cap I've seen (I forget which episode it's from) the wedge is oriented sideways, which would make the dish swing back & forth. I figure the orientation of the support shaft is the builder's choice.
> 
> Gary


I was trying to dig clues from this DVD grab. I wish I could get blu-ray into my Mac! This one looks like the forward "flat" is horizontal.

We could invent a solution by saying that the dish mounting shaft rotated, so it could sweep a full cone instead of an arc. 

Mike E


----------



## Lou Dalmaso

*Come and Get it!*

Just wanted to give a head's up that my basic template set is now for sale on the CultTVMan web store

Gentleman, start your Starships!


----------



## John Duncan

I always assumed it did allow for sweeping in a cone....why restrict it to just two dimensions? How it's mounted is up to the modeler.


----------



## Fozzie

Lou Dalmaso said:


> Just wanted to give a head's up that my basic template set is now for sale on the CultTVMan web store
> 
> Gentleman, start your Starships!


Ordered!


----------



## StarshipClass

John Duncan said:


> I always assumed it did allow for sweeping in a cone....why restrict it to just two dimensions?


Yeah, same here. It's the only thing that makes sense for a deflector.


----------



## jaws62666

Lou Dalmaso said:


> Just wanted to give a head's up that my basic template set is now for sale on the CultTVMan web store
> 
> Gentleman, start your Starships!


2 sets ordered. Now just need the accessory kit to commence building


----------



## ffejG

Trekkriffic said:


> The ACE Shady Cove can take 3-4 days to fully cure. At least that's what I found out when I used it on my 1/1000 Enterprise build. I thinned it with airbrush thinner to the consistency of milk and it went on fine.


For anyone interested in trying the hardener with Shady Cove, I will say I had trouble finding the Valspar brand of the hardener in my area but I did find the same thing at our area Tractor Supply store under their house brand. 

Also, if it doesn't cover as readily when thinned for model application I am hoping that will work to my advantage for pre-shading panel lines. I'm looking forward to experimenting with this.


----------



## Opus Penguin

Just ordered the window masks ... thanks Lou!


----------



## dreadnaught726

Captain April said:


> The other option is a bit trickier, paint the parts first, install the windows and lights, glue it all together, and then do touch up work around the seams.


This is the exact proceedure I used with my Seaview and other projects and it works great. Saves a lot of time masking and assures a clean sharp edged window. Just make sure you use the same paint mixture for touch up.


----------



## jaws62666

Lou Dalmaso said:


> Just wanted to give a head's up that my basic template set is now for sale on the CultTVMan web store
> 
> Gentleman, start your Starships!


Lou , the vinals for the triangles and the part under the nacelles, are they placed permanently in lieu of decals, or placed there to offset painted parts. PS they look great. I got 2 sets for my premier and my standard kits.


----------



## Lou Dalmaso

jaws62666 said:


> Lou , the vinals for the triangles and the part under the nacelles, are they placed permanently in lieu of decals, or placed there to offset painted parts. PS they look great. I got 2 sets for my premier and my standard kits.


they are to replace the decals. you would use these to paint those areas instead


----------



## jaws62666

Lou Dalmaso said:


> they are to replace the decals. you would use these to paint those areas instead


thanks


----------



## RossW

Just picked up Lou's set from Cult too!


----------



## Nova Designs

Thanks Lou, I just ordered!!!!


----------



## robn1

ffejG said:


> For anyone interested in trying the hardener with Shady Cove, I will say I had trouble finding the Valspar brand of the hardener in my area but I did find the same thing at our area Tractor Supply store under their house brand.
> 
> Also, if it doesn't cover as readily when thinned for model application I am hoping that will work to my advantage for pre-shading panel lines. I'm looking forward to experimenting with this.


I've only used this paint on resin and fiberglass, not on anything like a styrene model. So I'm not sure how it'll cover, but it worked fine for my uses. It works fine over Tamiya spray primer. But I don't know how it will perform with masking, if it will release cleanly, because the cured paint is very hard. Test it out first.

I also get the hardener from Tractor Supply, but in the Valspar name. Funny, it's not even mentioned on the Valspar website.


----------



## Trekkriffic

robn1 said:


> I've only used this paint on resin and fiberglass, not on anything like a styrene model. So I'm not sure how it'll cover, but it worked fine for my uses. It works fine over Tamiya spray primer. But I don't know how it will perform with masking, if it will release cleanly, because the cured paint is very hard. Test it out first.
> 
> I also get the hardener from Tractor Supply, but in the Valspar name. Funny, it's not even mentioned on the Valspar website.


When I built my 1/1000 I sprayed with Tamiya white Fine Surface Primer followed by a coat of flat black enamel for preshading. 
Here's how the Shady Cove looked over the flat black:

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r259/Trekriffic/TOS Enterprise 1-1000 scale/IMG_1372.jpg
http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r259/Trekriffic/TOS Enterprise 1-1000 scale/IMG_1374.jpg

It looks whiter in these photos probably because of the white backdrop. In person it was a light slightly olive grey as can be seen in this pic:

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r259/Trekriffic/TOS Enterprise 1-1000 scale/IMG_1387.jpg


----------



## Rahn

Anyone still looking for Canadian VooDoo Gray, I just picked up 3 bottles direct through Testors.com


----------



## wjplenge

Attached is a scan of my primer test of Shady Cove as a semigloss acrylic. It shows Shady Cove over automotive primer, silver spray enamel and gloss white spray enamel. It also shows that the silver is a bad choice because masking tape will pull the paint off of it, further examination showed that even after 5 days of curing masking tape will still peel the paint off the silver.

I originally intended to have rectangles of shady cove next to smaller rectangles of XF-12 lightened in 5% increments for a comparison but this test never got that far when I ran into the problem with the peeling. I may still complete that pain test when I get the chance. I'll need to pick up some Tamiya XF-12.

The testing was done by spraying some foam board first with the automotive primer, then with the other primer colors, then with the Shady Cove.


----------



## HabuHunter32

Just bought a set of window masks through cult's. Thanks Lou!

Mike


----------



## jaws62666

Guys I can tell you that before you assemble the nacelle struts into the hull, bring out the Dremel. Once the locks are inside you cannot get the tabs in the hull at all without dremeling plastic off the struts. They arent going anywhere once they are in . Absolutely no dropping down once in.


----------



## ffejG

jaws62666 said:


> Guys I can tell you that before you assemble the nacelle struts into the hull, bring out the Dremel. Once the locks are inside you cannot get the tabs in the hull at all without dremeling plastic off the struts. They arent going anywhere once they are in . Absolutely no dropping down once in.


I also found this to be true but I did something else to help them slip in. The sockets have ribs that provide an interference fit and once the brackets are glued in it can be difficult to impossible to get the pylon tabs started in the hole. I used an Xacto chisel to shave a little off the ribs at the opening. This allowed the tabs to get a purchase over the ends of the ribs and they could be inserted with some pressure.


----------



## woof359

according to the box tray the sensor dish and 3 ring collar behind it are both copper, I thought one was copper and one brass


----------



## Gary K

woof359 said:


> according to the box tray the sensor dish and 3 ring collar behind it are both copper, I thought one was copper and one brass


No, both are copper, and the entire deflector dish spike is silver.

Gary


----------



## Warped9

Something seems off to me seen in the drawings of the 1st and 2nd pilot versions. I don't recall the pilot versions having running lights (at least the the 2nd pilot version) under the saucer in line with those on the upper saucer. I recall them being set back some degrees on the underside.


----------



## Gary K

Warped9 said:


> Something seems off to me seen in the drawings of the 1st and 2nd pilot versions. I don't recall the pilot versions having running lights (at the the 2nd pilot version) under the saucer in line with those on the upper saucer. I recall them being set back some degrees on the underside.


You're correct. On the drawings there should be a notation to fill those holes in for the Pilot versions. I'll tell Jamie.

Thanks,

Gary


----------



## SteveR

Gary, to give us a gap so we can insert the clear windows, did you make the window holes slightly large, the clear inserts slightly small, or did you split the difference? (compared to the prototype)


----------



## woof359

Thanks for the info Gary, and Thanks for all your help and work. waiting for the paint to dry................

Uploaded with ImageShack.us


----------



## Gary K

SteveR said:


> Gary, to give us a gap so we can insert the clear windows, did you make the window holes slightly large, the clear inserts slightly small, or did you split the difference? (compared to the prototype)


None of the above. I simply gave the factory the exact dimensions of the windows, and they did their own thing. FYI, there are exceptions, but the typical windows on the sec hull should measure 0.076" (1.921 mm) x 0.181" (4.600 mm), and the portholes measure 0.061" (1.537 mm) in diameter. 

Gary


----------



## RossW

How exactly are the holes for the LEDs on part #42 arranged? They look like they're pentagons (with the blinking ones inversely oriented to the steady-on ones) but is each set centred on the same radius? I ask because I'm working on my own light circuit and my 3mm LEDs must line up perfectly with the holes so I need to draw them out. At first, I thought the inner, steady-on amber lights were centred at 29/64" radius while the blinking lights were centred on 33/64" radius, but when I draw that up they don't seem to line up.

Gary?


----------



## Warped9

Gary K said:


> You're correct. On the drawings there should be a notation to fill those holes in for the Pilot versions. I'll tell Jamie.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Gary


Could you give us (for those interested in building a pilot version) the exact position of those set back lower running lights? At what angle or degrees are they set back from the production version? I'm assuming they are the same type of light as the production version just set a bit aft ward.


----------



## Rahn

Warped9 said:


> Could you give us (for those interested in building a pilot version) the exact position of those set back lower running lights? At what angle or degrees are they set back from the production version? I'm assuming they are the same type of light as the production version just set a bit aft ward.


I believe it would be the center hole in the set of three holes (the same holes that need to be move forward) that are set further back from the production light positions.


----------



## Gary K

RossW said:


> How exactly are the holes for the LEDs on part #42 arranged? They look like they're pentagons (with the blinking ones inversely oriented to the steady-on ones) but is each set centred on the same radius? I ask because I'm working on my own light circuit and my 3mm LEDs must line up perfectly with the holes so I need to draw them out. At first, I thought the inner, steady-on amber lights were centred at 29/64" radius while the blinking lights were centred on 33/64" radius, but when I draw that up they don't seem to line up.
> 
> Gary?


First of all, keep in mind that the lights on the 11-footer probably weren't arranged as neatly as those in this model. Also, the inner & outer domes on the PL kit are proportionally thicker than on the 11-footer. With that in mind, I positioned the larger amber bulbs so they would fit inside the inner dome, but moved them out as far as possible so they wouldn't be crowded into the center. I didn't want the "random flashes of energy" from the blinking LEDs to be perfectly aligned with the always-on amber lights, so I scooted the smaller flashers a tiny bit further outboard. Basically, I wanted break up the pattern of LEDs a little bit. The factory may have adjusted these values a bit when they designed the 3D file, but on my plans the amber bulbs are on a 0.442" radius, while the flashers have a radius of 0.514".

Gary


----------



## Gary K

Rahn said:


> I believe it would be the center hole in the set of three holes (the same holes that need to be move forward) that are set further back from the production light positions.


Correct. The center hole should be located 66.740-degrees from the aft end of the saucer.

Gary


----------



## Warped9

^^ Thanks!


----------



## Shaw

Gary K said:


> You're correct. On the drawings there should be a notation to fill those holes in for the Pilot versions. I'll tell Jamie.


So does the kit include a bow light for the second pilot version? The one that was built by Small Art Works didn't include the feature, but I assumed that was because it was a pre-production version of the kit.


----------



## RossW

Gary K said:


> First of all, keep in mind that the lights on the 11-footer probably weren't arranged as neatly as those in this model. Also, the inner & outer domes on the PL kit are proportionally thicker than on the 11-footer. With that in mind, I positioned the larger amber bulbs so they would fit inside the inner dome, but moved them out as far as possible so they wouldn't be crowded into the center. I didn't want the "random flashes of energy" from the blinking LEDs to be perfectly aligned with the always-on amber lights, so I scooted the smaller flashers a tiny bit further outboard. Basically, I wanted break up the pattern of LEDs a little bit. The factory may have adjusted these values a bit when they designed the 3D file, but on my plans the amber bulbs are on a 0.442" radius, while the flashers have a radius of 0.514".
> 
> Gary
> 
> Gary


Thanks Gary.I know the nails in the 11' studio model were just where the string of lights were attached to so they were not so evenly placed, but I like what you did with part 42 and with the angled tear drop-shaped clear parts I think it will work nicely.

So, all 5 of each set are on the radius? And are they evenly spaced at 72 deg each?


----------



## Warped9

You know, another small bonus to this kit are the rather nice (albeit small) drawings of the ship in the instruction sheets. This kit is the most accurate representation of what the studio model was supposed to be that it would be awesome to have large drawings of it after all these years.


----------



## Gary K

Shaw said:


> So does the kit include a bow light for the second pilot version? The one that was built by Small Art Works didn't include the feature, but I assumed that was because it was a pre-production version of the kit.


There IS a bow light for the 2nd Pilot version. Jim Small was given a big box with enough parts for at least two kits, no instructions, and a short deadline. He did a great job, but simply missed the bow light.

Gary


----------



## Gary K

RossW said:


> Thanks Gary.I know the nails in the 11' studio model were just where the string of lights were attached to so they were not so evenly placed, but I like what you did with part 42 and with the angled tear drop-shaped clear parts I think it will work nicely.
> 
> So, all 5 of each set are on the radius? And are they evenly spaced at 72 deg each?


Well they'd BETTER be! 

Gar


----------



## Gregatron

Warped9 said:


> Something seems off to me seen in the drawings of the 1st and 2nd pilot versions. I don't recall the pilot versions having running lights (at least the the 2nd pilot version) under the saucer in line with those on the upper saucer. I recall them being set back some degrees on the underside.



As noted, the pilot version drawings in the 1/350 kit are recycled from the 1/1000 kit's instructions, which had both sets of lights (with the second pilot lights molded in, and the production lights as clear drop-in parts).


----------



## Steve H

Gary K said:


> First of all, keep in mind that the lights on the 11-footer probably weren't arranged as neatly as those in this model. Also, the inner & outer domes on the PL kit are proportionally thicker than on the 11-footer. With that in mind, I positioned the larger amber bulbs so they would fit inside the inner dome, but moved them out as far as possible so they wouldn't be crowded into the center. I didn't want the "random flashes of energy" from the blinking LEDs to be perfectly aligned with the always-on amber lights, so I scooted the smaller flashers a tiny bit further outboard. Basically, I wanted break up the pattern of LEDs a little bit. The factory may have adjusted these values a bit when they designed the 3D file, but on my plans the amber bulbs are on a 0.442" radius, while the flashers have a radius of 0.514".
> 
> Gary


Just thinking out loud, I wonder if a brass PE 'baffle plate' or 'bulkhead' might not be a bad idea to help with light leak and keep the blinking LEDS from washing each other out. I noted in a video of someone's build of that area (modelman tom?) a lot of light bled thru the plastic pegs. Of course paint is an easier solution but then we get into that goofy area of "just what is supposed to be inside the dome?" discussions. don't we? 

(wonder if anyone is going to try and make 'scale' Christmas Tree Lights cord to link all the 'bulbs', complete with tiny faux nails.  )


----------



## RossW

(removed)


----------



## woof359

*upper saucer part #6*

i need to reserch this, dont remember seeing it.:freak:


----------



## RICHjm

Rollout, for the mystery tour....

Was really hoping Gary could answer from his secret photos:
1)-Did this original version come out of the shop with t/b,p/s saucer
navigation light markers? Were they colored?
They seem to be present on 3 footer.
2)-P/S nav markers on top of nacelles.
Again present on 3 foot.
3)-Was lower saucer planetary sensor dome,like the top,
clear of any lines.Or was it like kit's part?
4)-Doesn't look as though the secondary hull had 
its numbered hull position markers as seen on
3 footer.
5)-Anything else might have missed?

When I was young and saw the pic of Spock holding the 3 footer
(album cover and poster) this is the version I wanted
to have if a model ever came out in that size. 
Its from these two pics(and a few others), and the available rollout pics,
that Ive been gathering info from.
Thank you for your time,knowledge and help on this
subject to all of us everywhere!_RICH.


----------



## seaview62

Yes...the nacelle struts. Mine were pretty warped but the book tricked worked perfectly.


----------



## santee

*Part Names?*

I have a question,

All the parts have numbers but is there a list which cross references the part number to the name of the part?

The obvious ones;
1-B/C Deck
2-Upper Saucer
3-Lower Saucer

It would be neat to know what all the parts are actually called.

Thanks.


----------



## Paulbo

RICHjm said:


> ...3)-Was lower saucer planetary sensor dome,like the top, clear of any lines.Or was it like kit's part?...


I can't remember if it was in the first SF&F Modeller article (I don't have the mag in front of me) but I have recently seen a photograph of the lower sensor dome *with* the lines.


----------



## woof359

*part names*



santee said:


> I have a question,
> 
> All the parts have numbers but is there a list which cross references the part number to the name of the part?
> 
> The obvious ones;
> 1-B/C Deck
> 2-Upper Saucer
> 3-Lower Saucer
> 
> It would be neat to know what all the parts are actually called.
> it wood help if the parts had names


----------



## RICHjm

Is this the pic?
This how it looked for first pilot,not sure for the "rollout".








And port side at the end of 1701 you can see what looks to be a red light.


----------



## santee

Paulbo said:


> I can't remember if it was in the first SF&F Modeller article (I don't have the mag in front of me) but I have recently seen a photograph of the lower sensor dome *with* the lines.


It's like anything on this "*$)(%#" model, so many changes were made.

No lines on the attaches photos. The first photo (before the model was completely ruined.....I mean "restored") shows the dome with a lip and had two slot screws counter sunk. The second is the current Smithsonian display version and what the R2 kit looks like and the way the dome fits, except of the nipple thingy.

I can not even begin to imagine what some of the meetings were like during the development of this kit.


----------



## santee

RICHjm said:


> Is this the pic?
> This how it looked for first pilot,not sure for the "rollout".
> View attachment 165102
> 
> 
> And port side at the end of 1701 you can see what looks to be a red light.


Hey it's warped!, so some of the R2 models are spot on! LOL


----------



## Prologic9

santee said:


> It's like anything on this "*$)(%#" model, so many changes were made.
> 
> No lines on the attaches photos. The first photo (before the model was completely ruined.....I mean "restored") shows the dome with a lip and had two slot screws counter sunk. The second is the current Smithsonian display version and what the R2 kit looks like except of the nipple thingy.
> 
> I can not even begin to imagine what some of the meetings were like during the development of this kit.


No, the first photo is just some piece the smithsonian put on there, it was never part of the original model. 

The second photo is of the 6 ft model from Deep Space Nine.


----------



## santee

Prologic9 said:


> No, the first photo is just some piece the smithsonian put on there, it was never part of the original model.
> 
> The second photo is of the 6 ft model from Deep Space Nine.


Trolling are we?


----------



## Prologic9

santee said:


> Trolling are we?


No, posting facts. There are plenty of other people here who can confirm them.


----------



## Paulbo

santee said:


> Trolling are we?


Huh? How is his comment trolling?

He's absolutely right - neither picture is of the Enterprise as seen in the original series. The first picture does not show the filming model as used in the series and the second shows the Trials and Tribbleations build (easily identified by its engraved grid).


----------



## feek61

On the production version the lower sensor dome was indeed segmented as it was on the pilot version. There is a great view in the third season episode "Let This Be Your Last Battlefield." You can also see the turret (or where it was) as a red dot on the nipple of the lower dome.


----------



## Captain April

You can also make out some faint grid lines there.

:::ducks::::


----------



## Gregatron

feek61 said:


> On the production version the lower sensor dome was indeed segmented as it was on the pilot version. There is a great view in the third season episode "Let This Be Your Last Battlefield." You can also see the turret (or where it was) as a red dot on the nipple of the lower dome.


Could it be that the cannon thingie was extendable? Sort of like how the sensor dish was designed to pivot?


----------



## Prologic9

Gregatron said:


> Could it be that the cannon thingie was extendable? Sort of like how the sensor dish was designed to pivot?


Possible but unlikely. I'm convinced they just removed it during the show's run. I think eventually there was just the hole where the rod inserted. 

I don't plan to include it, I think it looks like a tiny starship penis and it's one of the few details that doesn't hold up at the model's scale.


----------



## John P

Okay, my question: the little round/dome lights/windows on either side of the aft hull near the hangar doors... were they on the 2nd pilot version?


----------



## RossW

Gary K said:


> Well they'd BETTER be!
> 
> Gar


Here's my nacelle warp engine light circuit board laid out using Gary's dimensions:









It does indeed look like the factory kept the holes for the lights at 72 deg; I lined up this printout with part #42 and it looks pretty good.

Board has been uploaded to a BatchPCB to get some test shots made. Already submitted my supplemental running lights board (which lets you choose between 3 pre-prgrammed flash rates, plus adds fade in/out to the blinking to simulate incandescent lights). Once I get the Sayama motors I ordered (which look just like the ones in R2's Accessory Pack) and fine tune the voltage requirements, I can wrap up my main board. Exciting times!


----------



## santee

Paulbo said:


> Huh? How is his comment trolling?
> 
> He's absolutely right - neither picture is of the Enterprise as seen in the original series. The first picture does not show the filming model as used in the series and the second shows the Trials and Tribbleations build (easily identified by its engraved grid).


Well the first photo here shows it as is hung in the Smithsonian. The second photo shows is as it is at the Smithsonian now. The third shows it removed during it's restoration.


I don't see lines in any of these photos.


----------



## TrekFX

santee said:


> Well the first photo here shows it as is hung in the Smithsonian. The second photo shows is as it is at the Smithsonian now. The third shows it removed during it's restoration.
> 
> 
> I don't see lines in any of these photos.


That's because none of them are the original (lost) part used when actually filming!


----------



## Paulbo

Other than for overall shapes/sizes, the ship can no longer be used for reference. It's been repainted, parts have been replaced, the grills on the warp engines have been replaced with the incorrect pattern, etc. etc.


----------



## Warped9

Paulbo said:


> Other than for overall shapes/sizes, the ship can no longer be used for reference. It's been repainted, parts have been replaced, the grills on the warp engines have been replaced with the incorrect pattern, etc. etc.


Blasphemy! 

If I had enough spare cash to burn I'd offer to pay for a proper restoration...or fund Gary Kerr to oversee the construction of a new full-size replica, something between six to eleven feet in length and get it properly displayed.


----------



## feek61

Gregatron said:


> Could it be that the cannon thingie was extendable? Sort of like how the sensor dish was designed to pivot?


I heard that it broke off during production and wasn't there after the early shoots. Keep in mind that this thing traveled around to different effect companies during the 3 years (or two actually) that it was filmed. I also heard that the actual part was a grain of wheat (or rice; can't remember) bulb.


----------



## RICHjm

Thanks for the comments to my questions!
Hadn't known the lines on lower sensor dome were still there for the production version.
Thank you.
So anyone have other pics or info in regards to the original configuration, as it was finished and rolled out of the shop and photographed, before being delivered?
1)-Did this have t/b, p/s saucer navigation lights? 
2)-P/S nav markers on top of nacelles.
3)-Was lower saucer planetary sensor dome clear of any lines.
Or were they added on for Pilot1, like kit part?
4)-Did the secondary hull have numbered hull position markers 
5)-Anything else of interest,observations about this Rollout version?


----------



## actias

How about these to peel off and use as is, or to break the mirrors into chips to glue on the nacelle light tray. They are glass and as seen in the photo and they throw light well. Get them now because Christmas is the only time they are offered. These are from Hobby Lobby. They are 1" diameter balls and each mirror is about 4mm x 4mm.


----------



## RossW

I'll look for those, actias. How thin are they, btw?


----------



## Trekkriffic

RossW said:


> Here's my nacelle warp engine light circuit board laid out using Gary's dimensions:
> 
> View attachment 165175
> 
> 
> It does indeed look like the factory kept the holes for the lights at 72 deg; I lined up this printout with part #42 and it looks pretty good.
> 
> Board has been uploaded to a BatchPCB to get some test shots made. Already submitted my supplemental running lights board (which lets you choose between 3 pre-prgrammed flash rates, plus adds fade in/out to the blinking to simulate incandescent lights). Once I get the Sayama motors I ordered (which look just like the ones in R2's Accessory Pack) and fine tune the voltage requirements, I can wrap up my main board. Exciting times!


I look forward to seeing the final effect. Question...assuming your final effect looks like the on screen bussards will you be offering the finished boards for sale?


----------



## actias

The mirrors are 1mm to 1.5mm thick. They seem perfect for the size of the tray. They peel off easily too. My only concern is that LED's dont shoot light all over (360 degrees) like an icandescent bulb does. The LED's have a viewing angle where the light is more directional. So maybe the LED''s might have to be pointed at a slight angle. The idea is to have the lights reflect around the mirror pieces to give the illusion that there are more lights in the unit then what are actually there. I would love to hear others ideas about this......... One other thought is that you could break up one of the chrome colored glass Christmas balls and use those pieces (of course being careful -use tweezers to set - not to slice fingers). Those pieces would be paper thin.


----------



## Gregatron

Hey, is there a reason why we can't have some kind of running tally for the most common problems (and most agreed-upon) inaccuracies? Like ongoing revisions to the first post in this thread, or a sticky that presents a continually-updated, CliffsNotes-style list of the major issues?

Wading through page after page after page and trying to sift out information is a bit of a pain. The 1/350 Refit fixes thread alone was a HUGE chore to go through!


----------



## Steve H

Gregatron said:


> Hey, is there a reason why we can't have some kind of running tally for the most common problems (and most agreed-upon) inaccuracies? Like ongoing revisions to the first post in this thread, or a sticky that presents a continually-updated, CliffsNotes-style list of the major issues?
> 
> Wading through page after page after page and trying to sift out information is a bit of a pain. The 1/350 Refit fixes thread alone was a HUGE chore to go through!


It's kind of too bad there isn't a way to 'nest' forums, create a sub-page within a main topic page, so that all the different areas can be broken out into separate threads.


----------



## RossW

Trekkriffic - I'm in negotiations now with a model kit producer to release my lighting kit as well as a supplemental board to the R2 lighting lighting kit to select from 3 pre-programmed running light flash rates (1.5 sec on/0.5 sec off; 0.5 sec on/1.5 sec off; 0.789 sec on/0.893 sec off)


----------



## Prowler901

That's cool Ross. I've been following your progress on that. Nice work.


----------



## Lou Dalmaso

*Enterprise Azteks*

I know this won't be everyone's cup of Dilithium, but here's the first look at the aztek pattern I've whipped up for the 350 scale Enterprise saucer.

Please notice that it continues the fine tradition of being basically made up of upper case "E"' laying on their sides.

Remember, you don't have to make these any more contrast-y than just a shade away from each other. ( or just do it in the finish coats ..satin/flat)

more as this progresses

:wave:


----------



## Prowler901

Hmmm... I have a hard time visualizing the original with azteking. I'll be interested in seeing what others do with this. It could provide a very striking effect on the old girl.


----------



## StarshipClass

actias said:


> The mirrors are 1mm to 1.5mm thick. They seem perfect for the size of the tray. They peel off easily too. My only concern is that LED's dont shoot light all over (360 degrees) like an icandescent bulb does. The LED's have a viewing angle where the light is more directional. So maybe the LED''s might have to be pointed at a slight angle. The idea is to have the lights reflect around the mirror pieces to give the illusion that there are more lights in the unit then what are actually there. I would love to hear others ideas about this......... One other thought is that you could break up one of the chrome colored glass Christmas balls and use those pieces (of course being careful -use tweezers to set - not to slice fingers). Those pieces would be paper thin.


Perhaps drilling into the LED holder (part 42) and adding a few more small blinking LED's on the back side pointing forward through the drilled holes into some diffusing material (like clear silicone sprinkled with a little fine glitter?) placed inside the circle of light holders would help replicate that effect.


----------



## RossW

Thanks Prowler901!


----------



## SteveR

... or using narrow self-adhesive chrome strips on the _inside_ of the clear rotating dome? (where the black strips are)


----------



## kenlee

SteveR said:


> ... or using narrow self-adhesive chrome strips on the _inside_ of the clear rotating dome? (where the black strips are)


Add the broken mirrors or some irregular shaped pieces of the same reflective tape to the flat spaces around the base of the LEDs and I think you have the perfect solution


----------



## Trekkriffic

RossW said:


> Trekkriffic - I'm in negotiations now with a model kit producer to release my lighting kit as well as a supplemental board to the R2 lighting lighting kit to select from 3 pre-programmed running light flash rates (1.5 sec on/0.5 sec off; 0.5 sec on/1.5 sec off; 0.789 sec on/0.893 sec off)


Would your kit that include the motors too Ross?


----------



## Nova Designs

Lou Dalmaso said:


> I know this won't be everyone's cup of Dilithium, but here's the first look at the aztek pattern I've whipped up for the 350 scale Enterprise saucer.
> 
> Please notice that it continues the fine tradition of being basically made up of upper case "E"' laying on their sides.
> 
> Remember, you don't have to make these any more contrast-y than just a shade away from each other. ( or just do it in the finish coats ..satin/flat)
> 
> more as this progresses
> 
> :wave:



I did a VERY subtle aztec paneling on my CG model, much more so than in Enterprise on the Defiant. I'm still pretty happy how it came out. I might be taking you up on these...


----------



## John P

I would even think using Lou's masks with a second coat of the same color would give the ultimate subtle pattern. Just the thickness of the paint would indicate the paneling.


----------



## SteveR

John P said:


> I would even think using Lou's masks with a second coat of the same color would give the ultimate subtle pattern. Just the thickness of the paint would indicate the paneling.


Yep. It would be cool if it looked like something that was always _there_, but couldn't be seen due to the limitations of sixties TV. Subtle-like.


----------



## Nova Designs

John P said:


> I would even think using Lou's masks with a second coat of the same color would give the ultimate subtle pattern. Just the thickness of the paint would indicate the paneling.


Or even a touch of sheen change, like a flat and satin or something like that, but still the same color.


----------



## Trekkriffic

Nova Designs said:


> Or even a touch of sheen change, like a flat and satin or something like that, but still the same color.


Subtlety is the key


----------



## Nova Designs




----------



## Scotty K

With regard to what's inside the nacelle dome as far as light refraction is concerned, I thought that I'd share this to perhaps use as a guide. The photo comes courtesy of www.startrekhistory.com, with which I did a little bit of Photoshop to make it relevent here.

I think what I'm going to do is use some mylar, crumple it up somewhat, and place it on the light housing. Hopefully, this should give the same effect as using mirror shards.

Going to have to wait until I get the light kit, though, before I can check this out.


----------



## actias

Perfect Scotty K


----------



## Prowler901

Thanks Scotty! The caption says that the dome was a translucent orange. Is that true? I've been trying to figure out if I need to paint the domes or just frost them.


----------



## Scotty K

Prowler901 said:


> Thanks Scotty! The caption says that the dome was a translucent orange. Is that true? I've been trying to figure out if I need to paint the domes or just frost them.


Yes, the caption does indeed say that, although I can't definitively confirm it. My impression is that they were just translucent clear, frosted domes. I'm wondering if Gary can tell us for sure?


----------



## RossW

Trekkriffic said:


> Would your kit that include the motors too Ross?


Yes, it would. I got the Sayama motors today and have soldered in the noise-reducing caps to the leads and some twisted pair wire. At 12V, it seems to spin fast enough but I won't know until I can connect the spinning domes.


----------



## BARRYZ28

RossW said:


> Yes, it would. I got the Sayama motors today and have soldered in the noise-reducing caps to the leads and some twisted pair wire. At 12V, it seems to spin fast enough but I won't know until I can connect the spinning domes.


What kind of price range we looking at?


----------



## John P

BARRYZ28 said:


> What kind of price range we looking at?


I'd guess somewhere between one dollar and a million dollars.


----------



## Gary K

Scotty K said:


> Yes, the caption does indeed say that, although I can't definitively confirm it. My impression is that they were just translucent clear, frosted domes. I'm wondering if Gary can tell us for sure?


Just plain ol' frosted domes - no orange.

Gary


----------



## ClubTepes

Lou Dalmaso said:


> I know this won't be everyone's cup of Dilithium, but here's the first look at the aztek pattern I've whipped up for the 350 scale Enterprise saucer.
> 
> Please notice that it continues the fine tradition of being basically made up of upper case "E"' laying on their sides.
> 
> Remember, you don't have to make these any more contrast-y than just a shade away from each other. ( or just do it in the finish coats ..satin/flat)
> 
> more as this progresses
> 
> :wave:


Lou,
I'll be down for one of those.
Are you doing the whole ship or just the saucer?


----------



## onigiri

Lou, Im def in for a set.


----------



## Nova Designs

John P said:


> I'd guess somewhere between one dollar and a million dollars.


LOL! That outta cover it! :thumbsup:


----------



## RossW

Nova Designs said:


> LOL! That outta cover it! :thumbsup:


Depends - are we talking US$ or CA$? Might be less than $1 when converting. 

I'm only creating the boards; someone else will be producing and selling the light kit so I don't want to speak for them.


----------



## Nova Designs

Actually, US$ and Can$ are the same right now!


----------



## BARRYZ28

RossW said:


> Yes, it would. I got the Sayama motors today and have soldered in the noise-reducing caps to the leads and some twisted pair wire. At 12V, it seems to spin fast enough but I won't know until I can connect the spinning domes.


How does the "Sayama" fit into the kit part?
Is it a compression fit or a bit loose?


----------



## Prologic9

I have some questions/ideas about the saucer-rim lighting, using the R2 light kit. (FYI they updated the instructions on their website with high quality ones)

The kit was designed to either put the lights directly under the windows, which I think is far too bright and will give you lots of hotspots, or you can put them on the mid compartmental wall. I like this option, but if you look at my included pic you can see how this causes a shadowed area due to the concave of the saucer, that falls directly under the 4 'skylights.' 



The result is that the 'skylights' are way under-lit. Wait I'll get a pic; 



I tried a few things, like placing the light strips radially or putting in a piece of clear plastic to help the light reflect, but ideally I'd like to be able to add 1 additional led for each of the 4 'skylights.' 

I have no idea if this is feasible though. Each of the 3-LED strips has its own resistor or flux-capacitor or something, and I've no idea if I can just splice in an extra LED between the stripes. Can anyone tell me if this is going to work?


----------



## Steve H

Scotty K said:


> With regard to what's inside the nacelle dome as far as light refraction is concerned, I thought that I'd share this to perhaps use as a guide. The photo comes courtesy of www.startrekhistory.com, with which I did a little bit of Photoshop to make it relevent here.
> 
> I think what I'm going to do is use some mylar, crumple it up somewhat, and place it on the light housing. Hopefully, this should give the same effect as using mirror shards.
> 
> Going to have to wait until I get the light kit, though, before I can check this out.


That is AMAZING. I don't think I've ever seen that. The mirror bits were layered. fascinating. 

So, were they ever any pics of the fan blades mounted on the motor, sans the nacelle dome? I keep thinking that due to the size they may well have been flat like a propeller and just the shadow makes it appear curved against the dome (hence on the models the inner dome for the fan) or if it was really a dome-shaped cage that spun....or...something.


----------



## robn1

Here's another shot of the mirrors, without the added color.


----------



## SteveR

robn1 said:


> Here's another shot of the mirrors, without the added color.


To simulate this, it looks as if we could crumple some mylar or foil, poke holes in it for the light mounts, and glue it to the back wall with light mounts poking through.


----------



## Trekkriffic

Prologic9 said:


> I have some questions/ideas about the saucer-rim lighting, using the R2 light kit. (FYI they updated the instructions on their website with high quality ones)
> 
> The kit was designed to either put the lights directly under the windows, which I think is far too bright and will give you lots of hotspots, or you can put them on the mid compartmental wall. I like this option, but if you look at my included pic you can see how this causes a shadowed area due to the concave of the saucer, that falls directly under the 4 'skylights.'
> 
> 
> 
> The result is that the 'skylights' are way under-lit. Wait I'll get a pic;
> 
> 
> 
> I tried a few things, like placing the light strips radially or putting in a piece of clear plastic to help the light reflect, but ideally I'd like to be able to add 1 additional led for each of the 4 'skylights.'
> 
> I have no idea if this is feasible though. Each of the 3-LED strips has its own resistor or flux-capacitor or something, and I've no idea if I can just splice in an extra LED between the stripes. Can anyone tell me if this is going to work?


If it were me I wouldn't try to splice to the strips. Just run a dedicated circuit from the main saucer power leads up each side of the saucer (port and starboard) and run 2 LEDs off each circuit-one for the forward and one for the rear skylight on each side. Place them in series (negative leg to positive leg) with a 270 ohm 1/4W resistor on the negative leg of the first LED. Or if you prefer a parallel circuit use a 470 ohm 1/2W resistor on each LED; that way if one LED burns out you only lose one LED. This assumes you are running on 12V.

As far as hot spots go, I plan on painting my LEDs with acylic white fluorescent overcoat. Basically it makes the LEDs behave like frosted incandescent light bulbs as far as light dispersal goes.


----------



## SteveR

Prologic9 said:


>


How about attaching the LEDs to the _ceiling_, a little farther outboard? Then you'll get light bouncing off the floor for a more diffused effect.

(... using frosted mylar over the windows as well.)


----------



## ClubTepes

Prologic9 said:


> I have some questions/ideas about the saucer-rim lighting, using the R2 light kit. (FYI they updated the instructions on their website with high quality ones)
> 
> The kit was designed to either put the lights directly under the windows, which I think is far too bright and will give you lots of hotspots, or you can put them on the mid compartmental wall. I like this option, but if you look at my included pic you can see how this causes a shadowed area due to the concave of the saucer, that falls directly under the 4 'skylights.'
> 
> 
> 
> The result is that the 'skylights' are way under-lit. Wait I'll get a pic;
> 
> 
> 
> I tried a few things, like placing the light strips radially or putting in a piece of clear plastic to help the light reflect, but ideally I'd like to be able to add 1 additional led for each of the 4 'skylights.'
> 
> I have no idea if this is feasible though. Each of the 3-LED strips has its own resistor or flux-capacitor or something, and I've no idea if I can just splice in an extra LED between the stripes. Can anyone tell me if this is going to work?


First, I would suggest you paint the whole inside of the ship silver to get the maximum amount of light bouncing around the inside.

Second, Have you hit the back side of the upper rectangular windows or even the windows themselves yet with some steel wool?

'Clear' plastic isn't going to glow. Its just like any window, its only going to let light pass through it.

Any illumination of a window that you see at night is the room inside thats illuminated.

In this case, the inside of the kit.


----------



## Paulbo

Prologic9 said:


> ...ideally I'd like to be able to add 1 additional led for each of the 4 'skylights.'
> 
> I have no idea if this is feasible though. Each of the 3-LED strips has its own resistor or flux-capacitor or something, and I've no idea if I can just splice in an extra LED between the stripes. Can anyone tell me if this is going to work?


Yes, you can - what you'd need to do is add the appropriately sized resistor to the LED based on the input voltage, then solder it to the terminals on the strip. If you're daisy-chaining the strips, then you'll need to add the resistor/LED combination AND the wires to the other strips at the same terminals.


----------



## Trekkriffic

Paulbo said:


> Yes, you can - what you'd need to do is add the appropriately sized resistor to the LED based on the input voltage, then solder it to the terminals on the strip. If you're daisy-chaining the strips, then you'll need to add the resistor/LED combination AND the wires to the other strips at the same terminals.


So what you are describing is each strip of LEDs has one resistor and is daisy chained in serial on the same strip but then the strips are connected at their terminus's over a parallel bus circuit? Or does each LED have its own resistor and all are wired in parallel?


----------



## Paulbo

Trekkriffic said:


> So what you are describing is each strip of LEDs has one resistor and is daisy chained in serial on the same strip but then the strips are connected at their terminus's over a parallel bus circuit? Or does each LED have its own resistor and all are wired in parallel?


On the strips, each LED in the 3-LED group is in series with a resistor for that group. If you cut anywhere other than the cut points, the LEDs in that group won't light.

If you cut the strip (at the cut points) and then put a pair of wires between the individual strips it will still work. I should have called this "in series" above.

Doing this, you can solder both the wires to the next strip AND the LED with the resistor at the same point.

Check out this PDF: http://www.paragrafix.biz/instructions/Easy-LED.pdf to see what I mean about wiring in series (option D at the end).


----------



## Trekkriffic

Paulbo said:


> On the strips, each LED in the 3-LED group is in series with a resistor for that group. If you cut anywhere other than the cut points, the LEDs in that group won't light.
> 
> If you cut the strip (at the cut points) and then put a pair of wires between the individual strips it will still work. I should have called this "in series" above.
> 
> Doing this, you can solder both the wires to the next strip AND the LED with the resistor at the same point.
> 
> Check out this PDF: http://www.paragrafix.biz/instructions/Easy-LED.pdf to see what I mean about wiring in series (option D at the end).


Cool. Thanks for the instruction diagrams. They explain everything quite well.


----------



## RossW

ClubTepes - I used to spray bright silver inside my models to bounce the light around but I found flat white is better because it scatters the light in all directions. Have you every used that? I'm curious as to what other modelers do.


----------



## FyreTigger

Paulbo said:


> On the strips, each LED in the 3-LED group is in series with a resistor for that group. If you cut anywhere other than the cut points, the LEDs in that group won't light.
> 
> If you cut the strip (at the cut points) and then put a pair of wires between the individual strips it will still work. I should have called this "in series" above.
> 
> Doing this, you can solder both the wires to the next strip AND the LED with the resistor at the same point.
> 
> Check out this PDF: http://www.paragrafix.biz/instructions/Easy-LED.pdf to see what I mean about wiring in series (option D at the end).


Paublo, since you designed the wonderful PE and supplemental PE for the kit, and you really know lighting, you are the perfect one to ask this question.

I'm indecisive about lighting the warp inboards or not. I also don't particularly want to steal lighting from the saucer to do it. So question number 1: could after market LED lighting like yours be added to the R2 lighting kit without any electrical problems?

Question 2 is about the indecision aspect. It would would be ideal to be able to display the model with either lit or unlit warp inboards. Do you think it would be practical to add an external, switch for the inboards? And for the Impulse engines?

Thanks!


----------



## Paulbo

FyreTigger said:


> ...I'm indecisive about lighting the warp inboards or not. I also don't particularly want to steal lighting from the saucer to do it. So question number 1: could after market LED lighting like yours be added to the R2 lighting kit without any electrical problems?...


I've looked at the half-instructions posted on the Round 2 site (only page 2 of 2 pages) and it looks like the lighting kit comes with lights for the warp nacelles - they're optional, but the kit does include lights for them.



FyreTigger said:


> ...Question 2 is about the indecision aspect. It would would be ideal to be able to display the model with either lit or unlit warp inboards. Do you think it would be practical to add an external, switch for the inboards? And for the Impulse engines?...


I haven't seen the wiring diagram. My guess, though, is that it wouldn't be a problem to add some wire and switches of your own to do that. :wave:


----------



## Prologic9

^^ If you download the instructions for the Accessories pack, it has the full lighting instructions included.

Found here; http://www.round2models.com/files/instructions/mka005.pdf

It does say you have to omit 1 strip from the saucer to light the nacelles (but the nacelles use 6 stripes so it's not a huge trade off)


----------



## Paulbo

Ah, I'd only seen the 1 page shown on the lighting instructions pages.

_Guessing_ that you could bypass the circuit boards to add individual switches for the warp and impulse engines.


----------



## Prologic9

RossW said:


> ClubTepes - I used to spray bright silver inside my models to bounce the light around but I found flat white is better because it scatters the light in all directions. Have you every used that? I'm curious as to what other modelers do.


There was actually a Mythbusters episode about this (although that's not what I'm basing this on, rofl)

As a matter of physics, flat white is going to be the most effective surface for reflecting and diffusing light. The lighter the color, the more light it will reflect. The 'flatter' the surface, the more the light will disperse (making it more visible). 

Silver is A) grey and B) mirrored (essentially), so the color is going to absorb some of the light, and the surface is going to keep the light focused. 

In regards to model lighting both are useful depending on the situation.

---

I got a lot of replies/ideas about my lighting question, all of them were good. Thanks everyone. 

I have somewhat specific needs (I want to make sure the lighting photographs well in addition to looking good in person, and this is much less forgiving than the human eye), so I'm going to play around with adding some lights when my kit arrives. 

SteveR suggested placing the LED Stripes on the ceiling. I tried this out, putting them just against the border of the rectangular windows. This actually works quite well and I'd recommend people try it. The only downside is that the lower saucer has all of the channels for lighting so it'll probably be a little more frustrating to set up.


----------



## John P

RossW said:


> ClubTepes - I used to spray bright silver inside my models to bounce the light around but I found flat white is better because it scatters the light in all directions. Have you every used that? I'm curious as to what other modelers do.


I've heard this a lot too. Better to diffuse the light with white than bounce it all over the place with silver.


----------



## Spidey7

Since we're on the topic of how to best reflect light in both the hull and the nacelles, I was wondering if anyone had ever tried, (or thought of trying), this stuff. It's a "semi-transparent" spray that is supposed to give things the same sort of reflective surface that you would find on a street sign or bicycle reflector.

If it works, then it seems to me that it would reflect a LOT more light than just white or silver paint. It's made for spray-painting mailboxes, guard-rails, and other things that you would want to reflect a car's headlights. It seems like it could be a great solution to the nacelle issue as well as the interior hull.

Anyone tried it?


----------



## Paulbo

If it works the way street signs work, then it would be nearly useless - street signs employ a cool system that shoots light back to where it came from. Since your eyes are close (relatively) to the position of your car's headlights, the light flicks back to you.

Inside a model, it would reflect light back to where it came from rather than scatter it, which is what you want.


----------



## woof359

*part #120*

lower saucer, part 120....box shows them as being white, woodntthey be green and red nav lights like on top ?


----------



## Spidey7

Paulbo said:


> If it works the way street signs work, then it would be nearly useless - street signs employ a cool system that shoots light back to where it came from. Since your eyes are close (relatively) to the position of your car's headlights, the light flicks back to you.
> 
> Inside a model, it would reflect light back to where it came from rather than scatter it, which is what you want.


I don't think that it could work exactly the same as a street sign since they use a carefully made plastic coating to capture and reflect the light straight back in the manner you described, rather than using something that's sprayed on. 

I figured that this stuff might be more like a clear coating with flecks of mica or metal in it. I imagine that since it's sprayed on, it would diffuse and reflect the light in more directions than a street sign, but you're right. If it worked exactly like a street sign, it wouldn't be good at all.

If no one else has tried it before, then I guess there's only one way to find out.


----------



## woof359

now if I could just find some transparent orange to cover the inside dome to blur the shody workman ship


Uploaded with ImageShack.us


----------



## Captain April

Forget transparent orange, that was a myth based on degraded copies of the episodes. Outer dome was frosted, inner dome was clear. Only color was from the lights.


----------



## Gregatron

Hey, what about the bits of window screen behind the dorsal windows? And the bits of pylon grille? 

I presume one could just use the PE parts for the latter, although that would entail buying another whole set just for a few teensy bits!


----------



## SteveR

RossW said:


> ClubTepes - I used to spray bright silver inside my models to bounce the light around but I found flat white is better because it scatters the light in all directions. Have you every used that? I'm curious as to what other modelers do.


Yep. In other words, white gives you a more even (diffuse) reflection of light, while silver gives you hot spots (more specular reflections). Since we don't want to see hot spots in the windows as we move around the model, white would be better.


----------



## Prologic9

Gregatron said:


> Hey, what about the bits of window screen behind the dorsal windows? And the bits of pylon grille?
> 
> I presume one could just use the PE parts for the latter, although that would entail buying another whole set just for a few teensy bits!


I don't really understand what you're asking, could you elaborate?


----------



## Gregatron

Prologic9 said:


> I don't really understand what you're asking, could you elaborate?


As Gary Kerr has noted, several windows in the dorsal were backed by window-screen mesh and pieces of the same material used for the nacelle pylon grilles.


----------



## Prologic9

Gregatron said:


> As Gary Kerr has noted, several windows in the dorsal were backed by window-screen mesh and pieces of the same material used for the nacelle pylon grilles.


Okay lets start with the pylons. They have those rectangles of mesh on them. These are included as plastic in the kit, and also in the official Photo Etch set. Is that what you're talking about?


----------



## Gregatron

Prologic9 said:


> Okay lets start with the pylons. They have those rectangles of mesh on them. These are included as plastic in the kit, and also in the official Photo Etch set. Is that what you're talking about?


Yup. Some of the same material was used as window-backing on the 11-footer's dorsal.


----------



## Prologic9

Okay I totally understand now. Now the decals for the old 1/1000 kit make perfect sense. 

I would actually suggest trying a decal. If you stick PE in there its probably just going to cut your light output down a ton.


----------



## woof359

*update*



Captain April said:


> Forget transparent orange, that was a myth based on degraded copies of the episodes. Outer dome was frosted, inner dome was clear. Only color was from the lights.


i did not know that, thanks for the info. they money I have spent is starting to add up for paints, guess Ill just chalk it up to reserch and development :hat:


----------



## TrekFX

Spidey7 said:


> I don't think that it could work exactly the same as a street sign since they use a carefully made plastic coating to capture and reflect the light straight back in the manner you described, rather than using something that's sprayed on.
> 
> I figured that this stuff might be more like a clear coating with flecks of mica or metal in it. I imagine that since it's sprayed on, it would diffuse and reflect the light in more directions than a street sign, but you're right. If it worked exactly like a street sign, it wouldn't be good at all.
> 
> If no one else has tried it before, then I guess there's only one way to find out.


It may use microspheres, which would be good retro-reflectors. Just guessing.

Never mind. Just read the MSDS and it contains "glass beads." Confirmed.

BUT, I bet we could find some uses for it!!! :wave:


----------



## ffejG

Who will be the first to try it on the bussard domes?


----------



## TrekFX

ffejG said:


> Who will be the first to try it on the bussard domes?


Stop reading my mind. :hat:


----------



## RossW

I think I'm going to give the inside of the outer dome a light coating of thinned white paint to make it appear slightly 'milky'. To my mind, that would look better with the lights off.

Two snags with setting up one nacelle with my custom lighting circuit - the Sayama motors are 15/32" in diameter and the hole they slide into on part #41 is slightly smaller. I could force it, but I don't want to risk damaging the motor. I can enlarge it with a big round file, but I'm worried the hole will end up slightly off centre once the motor is in place which would make the inner dome spin eccentrically. I have a drill press, so I might try enlarging it that way and then casting the whole part for the kit. Sigh. More work.

Also, the 2mm outer diameter of the motor shaft must be slightly smaller than the ones provided in PL's light kit as there's a lot of play when inserted into the inner dome. Hopefully, a piece of 3m outer diameter brass tubing will work: slide it over the motor shaft and the extra thickness should make for a tight fit on the dome.


----------



## Trekkriffic

RossW said:


> I think I'm going to give the inside of the outer dome a light coating of thinned white paint to make it appear slightly 'milky'. To my mind, that would look better with the lights off.
> 
> Two snags with setting up one nacelle with my custom lighting circuit - the Sayama motors are 15/32" in diameter and the hole they slide into on part #41 is slightly smaller. I could force it, but I don't want to risk damaging the motor. I can enlarge it with a big round file, but I'm worried the hole will end up slightly off centre once the motor is in place which would make the inner dome spin eccentrically. I have a drill press, so I might try enlarging it that way and then casting the whole part for the kit. Sigh. More work.
> 
> Also, the 2mm outer diameter of the motor shaft must be slightly smaller than the ones provided in PL's light kit as there's a lot of play when inserted into the inner dome. Hopefully, a piece of 3m outer diameter brass tubing will work: slide it over the motor shaft and the extra thickness should make for a tight fit on the dome.


Well the outer domes were described as being "milky white" so I think you may be on to something with your idea. Bummer about the motor not wanting to fit without removing plastic.


----------



## RossW

Yeah, it's a bit annoying. The good news is that these motors are quieter than the Polulu ones I was using, so hopefully with the wrap of sheet foam around the inside of the nacelles behind this assembly it will be as quiet as can be.


----------



## ClubTepes

Spidey7 said:


> Since we're on the topic of how to best reflect light in both the hull and the nacelles, I was wondering if anyone had ever tried, (or thought of trying), this stuff. It's a "semi-transparent" spray that is supposed to give things the same sort of reflective surface that you would find on a street sign or bicycle reflector.
> 
> If it works, then it seems to me that it would reflect a LOT more light than just white or silver paint. It's made for spray-painting mailboxes, guard-rails, and other things that you would want to reflect a car's headlights. It seems like it could be a great solution to the nacelle issue as well as the interior hull.
> 
> Anyone tried it?


That stuff really only reflects light right back at the source.
Just like a road sign.
So an 'off-axis' reflection probably won't be that intense.

On white/silver.
You can use both to your advantage.
Yes, white diffuses light more than silver, but you can use silver to 'reflect' light a longer distance.
I use 'white' and 'silver' all the time in movie/commercial lighting.


----------



## SteveR

ClubTepes said:


> Yes, white diffuses light more than silver, but you can use silver to 'reflect' light a longer distance.


In other words, it depends on the application?


----------



## TrekFX

ffejG said:


> Who will be the first to try it on the bussard domes?


On a nacelle effect package I did for Mike Warshaw waaaaayyyy back (for an 18-incher), I used pearl powder in Future for diffusion on Plastruct clear acrylic domes. It came out pretty good, considering there are no moving parts! Let's see if I can find a link...

http://culttvman.com/main/?p=6068


----------



## Ductapeforever

I thought of going the self - lighting design kit myself, however I feel that the light combo kit is spendy but it's purchase offsets any headaches I will encounter trying to come up with something on my own. The additional clear parts alone are worth the price of admission,.....and no fudge factor in fitting subpar parts. Yep it's the factory set for me !


----------



## TrekFX

I agree! I'd spend more on aspirin.


----------



## robn1

RossW said:


> I think I'm going to give the inside of the outer dome a light coating of thinned white paint to make it appear slightly 'milky'. To my mind, that would look better with the lights off...


I would recommend testing this on some clear sheet first, before spraying the kit domes. Try clear flat first, it may be milky enough. If not, add some white to the clear.


----------



## SteveR

Ductapeforever said:


> Yep it's the factory set for me !


No kidding. :thumbsup:


----------



## Prowler901

Ductapeforever said:


> I thought of going the self - lighting design kit myself, however I feel that the light combo kit is spendy but it's purchase offsets any headaches I will encounter trying to come up with something on my own. The additional clear parts alone are worth the price of admission,.....and no fudge factor in fitting subpar parts. Yep it's the factory set for me !


Absolutely! Now, if they'd just start shipping them...


----------



## BruceDownunder

For anyone (like me) who can't wait... Pacific Hobbies have them in stock.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Polar-Light...196149796?pt=Model_Kit_US&hash=item3a7c751024
I just bought the Deluxe Accessory Pack. $249 shipped to Australia.


----------



## John Duncan

I see that we need "amber" leds....are you guys using orange or yellow for this? I haven't found any "amber" leds...


----------



## kekker

on the silver/white coating for the interior. I think that silver is used because it blocks the light more than white. Most white paints are fairly translucent, while the metallic pigments in silver block the light better.

Of course, the optimal solution would be silver first for blocking light, then white for scattering.


----------



## ViperRecon

RossW said:


> Yeah, it's a bit annoying. The good news is that these motors are quieter than the Polulu ones I was using, so hopefully with the wrap of sheet foam around the inside of the nacelles behind this assembly it will be as quiet as can be.


Is there any space between the shaft connection point on the inner dome and the motor for something like a universal coupler (like the U-joint on your car's drive shaft)? RC boat guys use these all of the time... If offset of the shaft and the connection on the dome is very slight a small spring would probably even work...

Love those Sayama motors...

Mark in Okinawa


----------



## RossW

ViperRecon said:


> Is there any space between the shaft connection point on the inner dome and the motor for something like a universal coupler (like the U-joint on your car's drive shaft)? RC boat guys use these all of the time... If offset of the shaft and the connection on the dome is very slight a small spring would probably even work...
> 
> Love those Sayama motors...
> 
> Mark in Okinawa


Mark - part #140 (the inner dome with the shaft) slides down thru part #42 and the PCB board to connect to the motor shaft. There is a space between that and the centre hole where the motor slides through (the PL instruction page is here). Unfortunately, I don't have any experience with RC models - can you elaborate on what a universal coupler would look like?

To be clear, I think the PL lighting kit is extremely well thought out and executed. My desire to do my own lighting solution is partly due to stubbornness (I've always done my own lighting stuff and I started the PIC microcontroller programming for this over a year and a half ago) and partly that I want a few features not offered in their kit (ability to select different running light flash rates based on 3 examples, variable motor speed and 5 independent flashing lights for the warp engines).


----------



## RossW

kekker said:


> on the silver/white coating for the interior. I think that silver is used because it blocks the light more than white. Most white paints are fairly translucent, while the metallic pigments in silver block the light better.
> 
> Of course, the optimal solution would be silver first for blocking light, then white for scattering.


I think this is the best solution. Paul M. Newitt suggested that very thing ages ago with his SFAM books.


----------



## Fozzie

I'd like to add a potentiometer to the motor circuit of the R2 lighting kit to control the speed of the spin. I know nothing about how to determine what potentiometer to purchase. Any help with that would be appreciated!


----------



## marc111

ClubTepes said:


> Ok, ok, nobody freak out.
> 
> While its never a good feeling to discover that something got past you, here is the quickest way to start to solve the problem.
> 
> I'm posting a quick and easy way over on the 'tips and tricks' thread to get proper placement for drilling new holes for the 'compass-impaired'.
> 
> http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=378454&page=6
> 
> P.S. I'm still hoping the mods will make that thread 'sticky' to consolidate all the build tips for this kit.


I am just now catching up on this thread. While I appreciate the fix. with the small number of windows on the TOS E, as a customer I do not view this as a small oops. I view this as a Round 2 should send me a new saucer bottom with the correct holes. It will be very difficult to get the same kind of precision the CAD would have given us done right.


----------



## Fozzie

marc111 said:


> I am just now catching up on this thread. While I appreciate the fix. with the small number of windows on the TOS E, as a customer I do not view this as a small oops. I view this as a Round 2 should send me a new saucer bottom with the correct holes. It will be very difficult to get the same kind of precision the CAD would have given us done right.


This is the most accurate _Enterprise _kit every produced, but there was never any guarantee made by R2 that it would be perfect.


----------



## jheilman

Agreed. Perhaps on a future run of the kit, the error could be corrected, but they are not going to rework the mold and pop off a couple thousand new saucer bottom pieces for the Premiere buyers. And think of the number of standard edition kits. Don't see that happening.


----------



## Captain April

In many way, it can be argued that this model is more accurate than the actual eleven footer, so let's resist the urge to live down to the stereotype of the terminally obsessed Trek modeler for at least a little while, 'kay?


----------



## Captain April




----------



## Fozzie

Well that's just silly. Everyone knows the homing beacon is in the saucer section.


----------



## Steve H

He got a PAINTBRUSH?! Damn! I never won a paintbrush.


----------



## Prologic9

Here's an idea. 

Instead of using the supplied 'Production Impulse Engines,' I'd like to use the 'Pilot Impulse Engines' and find an actual mesh to put on the sides. (The production version having the mesh molded in)

Just need to find a good source for the mesh. Any ideas?


----------



## ViperRecon

RossW said:


> Mark - part #140 (the inner dome with the shaft) slides down thru part #42 and the PCB board to connect to the motor shaft. There is a space between that and the centre hole where the motor slides through (the PL instruction page is here). Unfortunately, I don't have any experience with RC models - can you elaborate on what a universal coupler would look like?


Here's an example. It basically allows the motor and the shaft to be slightly out of line. a U joint on each end of a shaft would clear up any small alignment problem between the motor and the inner dome, but it looks like there isn't room for that kind of thing. You'd have to cut the plastic shaft on the dome off and install a customized one with the U joints, which is a lot of work...

Mark in Okinawa


----------



## 84crossfire

Now what color are the rings on the nacells and what color 
Are the fan blades? Where they silver or black?


----------



## TrekFX

When installing the shuttlebay, you'll need to fill/shim the right/starboard edge to get the rear bulkhead to meet the hull. If you dry-fit the two hull halves, you'll see that the left side has a crisp ledge molded into the side. The right side doesn't have that sharply-molded extension. Look at the interior top, and you'll see the break-point in that transition just after the join line.


----------



## ClubTepes

SteveR said:


> In other words, it depends on the application?


Yes.
Light is essentially particles (of energy).

If you take a mirror out doors and reflect the sun, you can imagine that the mirror is going to reflect the sunlight a longer distance than a white bounce of the same size.

That is because the mirror is NOT spreading out those particles (as much) and hence there more of them at the destination.

Since the white scatters those particles into more directions, there are fewer particles that arrive at that destination.

In the case of painting the inside of the saucer, I'm still going to paint 2/3 the distance from the inner wall to the windows silver, for sure.
To get the light over that hump from the bottom of the saucer.
The outer third I'll likely paint white in agreement with what others have said, as I want to get some of that light bouncing up into the rectangular windows on the upper saucer.

There is another thing in lighting called the 'Inverse Square Law'.
This is where light traveling (20 feet as an example) is only 1/4 the intensity as it is at 10 feet. (not 1/2 as one might think).
Imagine light originating from a point and passing through a 1'x1' (1 square foot) opening. At twice that distance (20 feet) that opening would be 2'x2'. Or, 4 square feet. So the quantity of light passing through any 1 square foot of that 4 square foot opening is 1/4 of what it was at 10 feet.

So, in regards to the lighting kit, I hoping to avoid a great disparity in light levels between rim windows and the upper saucer windows.
And also a disparity in the intensity of the windows in the secondary hull and the saucer. So I was suggesting to keep the leds at about the same distance from the windows wherever possible.

If anyone is thinking about using the 'translucent' white windows in conjunction with the light kit, thinking they will illuminate better....
When I built a test shot with the light kit, I found that those windows didn't light up that well.

IMHO, those windows are best for someone who isn't planning on lighting their kit.

HOWEVER - I thought that using the translucent white for the lower saucer was kind of cool.
Thats one of the great things about the kit are the options it gives you.


----------



## ClubTepes

Prologic9 said:


> Here's an idea.
> 
> Instead of using the supplied 'Production Impulse Engines,' I'd like to use the 'Pilot Impulse Engines' and find an actual mesh to put on the sides. (The production version having the mesh molded in)
> 
> Just need to find a good source for the mesh. Any ideas?


K&S makes a bunch of brass stuff. Any good hobbyshop has a K&S rack.

I don't know if its too thick to bend and follow the contours.


----------



## TrekFX

This might be in the "overkill department," but since we're looking to light some fairly tight "zones" in the outer saucer I wonder if those cheap credit-card-size fresnel magnifiers could be snipped down and stuck in there to help collimate the light and confine the scattering a bit. Keeping the center "bullseye" as the working component.

I don't have a light kit so I'm in the dark (so to speak) regarding the actual layout in there...


----------



## Larva

Random thought regarding lighting this kit: might be fun (and challenging) to build the TOS Enterprise with a self-illuminated option, a la the refit.


----------



## woof359

*kit prices*

just came back from stocking up on supplies at the LHS, I know I just bought thinner but you think I could find it > Grrrrrrrrrrr

standard kit 149 bucks, lighting kit 214, ouch !


----------



## Space Rat

Larva said:


> Random thought regarding lighting this kit: might be fun (and challenging) to build the TOS Enterprise with a self-illuminated option, a la the refit.


Check out Doug Graves Enterprise TOS.5. Can't post a link yet, not enough post. His version looks fantastic.


----------



## RICHjm

Does anyone know if these bridge decals were present on the rollout version?


----------



## Paulbo

Larva said:


> Random thought regarding lighting this kit: might be fun (and challenging) to build the TOS Enterprise with a self-illuminated option, a la the refit.


Tom (Tchail) Hendrickson has posted images of a CGI build he's doing that shows just that. They're somewhere here in HT.


----------



## irishtrek

Not sure if any one has asked this because I aint gone throught every page for this thread, but I went and picked this model up ;ate friday afternoon and when looking at it here at home I see there is a small clear piece that goes into the top of the secondary hull just aft of the warp pylons and I've never seen that detail in any pics, so my question is has it always been there????


----------



## Trekkriffic

irishtrek said:


> Not sure if any one has asked this because I aint gone throught every page for this thread, but I went and picked this model up ;ate friday afternoon and when looking at it here at home I see there is a small clear piece that goes into the top of the secondary hull just aft of the warp pylons and I've never seen that detail in any pics, so my question is has it always been there????


Is that along the spine about midway between the pylons and the dome over the shuttle bay doors? I haven't looked closely at my kit but it may be the insert that comprises the three small lights that reside there. The middle light is red and sits up higher than the other two which look to be flush with the hull with the one in front being green or yellow and the other being yellow on the other side of the red one. Perhaps one of the experts here knows whether the first light is green or yellow. I seem to recall one screenshot where it looked green to me.


----------



## Gary K

irishtrek said:


> Not sure if any one has asked this because I aint gone throught every page for this thread, but I went and picked this model up ;ate friday afternoon and when looking at it here at home I see there is a small clear piece that goes into the top of the secondary hull just aft of the warp pylons and I've never seen that detail in any pics, so my question is has it always been there????


Part 136 represents the two green lights that are flush with the hull, while Part 137 is the raised red light that's located between the green lights. I have no idea why they were molded separately. The lights were only found on the Production version.

Gary


----------



## onigiri

Gary- On Startrekhistory.com they list as one of the April 1966 changes made to the model that the wooden nacelle domes were replaced with transparent acrylic domes which were then 'frosted and painted transparent orange'. It also lists the other changes made for teh production model.


----------



## irishtrek

Gary K said:


> Part 136 represents the two green lights that are flush with the hull, while Part 137 is the raised red light that's located between the green lights. I have no idea why they were molded separately. The lights were only found on the Production version.
> 
> Gary


I never knew they were there until today. Looking at some pics online of the last refurbishment the 11 footer went through I can see them but I thought they had been added by who ever it was that refurbished it, now I know different. Thank you Gary K.


----------



## Gary K

onigiri said:


> Gary- On Startrekhistory.com they list as one of the April 1966 changes made to the model that the wooden nacelle domes were replaced with transparent acrylic domes which were then 'frosted and painted transparent orange'. It also lists the other changes made for teh production model.


When they were modifying the 2nd Pilot version of the 11-footer into the Production version Richard Datin bought two clear hemispheres for $15 and had them sandblasted into translucence for a whopping $2.50. Neither Paul Newitt nor I have found any evidence that the domes were painted with transparent orange. If any transparent orange paint was used, it was only on the inside of the domes. I wouldn't bet my life on it, but to me it looks like the domes were simply frosted, and the orange color was due to the glow of the 5 amber bulbs packed inside each dome. Of course, we're always on the lookout for new reference photos (hopefully in color!).

Gary


----------



## onigiri

Several of the pics on that site of the model on stage show it UNLIT with definite color to the nacelle caps. Theyre in a slideshow about the production model. Some are in color and some in black and white. Worth looking at.



Gary K said:


> When they were modifying the 2nd Pilot version of the 11-footer into the Production version Richard Datin bought two clear hemispheres for $15 and had them sandblasted into translucence for a whopping $2.50. Neither Paul Newitt nor I have found any evidence that the domes were painted with transparent orange. If any transparent orange paint was used, it was only on the inside of the domes. I wouldn't bet my life on it, but to me it looks like the domes were simply frosted, and the orange color was due to the glow of the 5 amber bulbs packed inside each dome. Of course, we're always on the lookout for new reference photos (hopefully in color!).
> 
> Gary


----------



## onigiri

Theres a very good shot of the 11 footer (production version) 3/4 forward view with a grip or somebody. NONE Of the lights are turned on on the model and the domes are orange. It wont let me copy and paste


----------



## actias

There are pictures of nails used as light support posts in the nacelle tray, that has the mirror chips in it. Since Christmas lights were used and Christmas lights have clips on the sides, it would make sense that the bulbs were clipped onto the posts sideways, which would allow the mirror chips to reflect the lights. Anybody know the correct positioning of the lights themselves.


----------



## woof359

startrekhistory.com


----------



## Gary K

onigiri said:


> Theres a very good shot of the 11 footer (production version) 3/4 forward view with a grip or somebody. NONE Of the lights are turned on on the model and the domes are orange. It wont let me copy and paste


To save these pictures you can always do Shift/Print Screen and then do a "paste from clipboard" command in a graphics program. I've seen these photos, but the problem with them is the fact that thay've been restored. I've been told that the color of some of these old frame enlargements was shifted so far into the magenta that the photos were desaturated and then colorized by hand. We can't say anything definitive about the colors in any of these photos unless we can see the originals - or find a photo that hasn't totally color-shifted.

Gary


----------



## woof359

http://www.startrekhistory.com/


----------



## RICHjm

Okay... maybe I should phrase this as a direct question;...GARY were these bridge decals present on the rollout version? Thank you?


----------



## Havok69

onigiri said:


> Theres a very good shot of the 11 footer (production version) 3/4 forward view with a grip or somebody. NONE Of the lights are turned on on the model and the domes are orange. It wont let me copy and paste


Ah, the old javascript block. Here, you can copy and paste this one:


----------



## onigiri

Thanks! All things being equal, from that before and after, Im going with the orange tint


----------



## charonjr

One thing nobody has noticed: the mirrors used are rear coated. This causes 5% of the reflected light to come from the front surface of the glass itself, hence a second reflection. Might not be "noticeable", but, By The Laws Of Physics!, it is there.


----------



## feek61

Havok69 said:


>


I would by no means call this any sort of conclusive proof. Keep in mind that the photo on the right was restored so basically the nacelles could have been any color and just restored to the orange tinted domes due to the restorers preference or "best guess." Personally I don't see how if the domes were orange tinted how we can see blue, green and particularly white flashes when you see it on screen. In certain third season episodes there clearly is a plane white flasher in the nacelle which if the dome was tinted orange we would not be able to see (because it would be orange due to the tint of the dome). Just my opinion of course but I do not think there was an orange tint.


----------



## SteveR

feek61 said:


> Keep in mind that the photo on the right was restored so basically the nacelles could have been any color and just restored to the orange tinted domes due to the restorers preference or "best guess."


Definitely. Orange has been added to the dome in the right shot. See how the dome in the left shot has a white area near the top; there's a gradation from white to pale orange. However, that gradation has been lost in the dome in the right shot; it's solid orange. This tells me that the "restored" shots are to be taken with a grain of salt.


----------



## RossW

ViperRecon said:


> Here's an example. It basically allows the motor and the shaft to be slightly out of line. a U joint on each end of a shaft would clear up any small alignment problem between the motor and the inner dome, but it looks like there isn't room for that kind of thing. You'd have to cut the plastic shaft on the dome off and install a customized one with the U joints, which is a lot of work...
> 
> Mark in Okinawa


Thanks Mark! I think that is too big for the available space but I'll keep it in mind.

On a separate note, the 2mm motor shafts on the Sayama motors have a email hole. I've ordered some 3mm brass tubing whose inside diameter should allow for sliding over the motor shaft, but are you aware of a way to make a better mechanical connection between the motor shaft and the brass tube (which will slide inside the clear inner nacelle dome)?


----------



## RossW

ClubTepes said:


> Yes.
> Light is essentially particles (of energy).
> 
> If you take a mirror out doors and reflect the sun, you can imagine that the mirror is going to reflect the sunlight a longer distance than a white bounce of the same size.
> 
> That is because the mirror is NOT spreading out those particles (as much) and hence there more of them at the destination.
> 
> Since the white scatters those particles into more directions, there are fewer particles that arrive at that destination.
> 
> In the case of painting the inside of the saucer, I'm still going to paint 2/3 the distance from the inner wall to the windows silver, for sure.
> To get the light over that hump from the bottom of the saucer.
> The outer third I'll likely paint white in agreement with what others have said, as I want to get some of that light bouncing up into the rectangular windows on the upper saucer.
> 
> There is another thing in lighting called the 'Inverse Square Law'.
> This is where light traveling (20 feet as an example) is only 1/4 the intensity as it is at 10 feet. (not 1/2 as one might think).
> Imagine light originating from a point and passing through a 1'x1' (1 square foot) opening. At twice that distance (20 feet) that opening would be 2'x2'. Or, 4 square feet. So the quantity of light passing through any 1 square foot of that 4 square foot opening is 1/4 of what it was at 10 feet.
> 
> So, in regards to the lighting kit, I hoping to avoid a great disparity in light levels between rim windows and the upper saucer windows.
> And also a disparity in the intensity of the windows in the secondary hull and the saucer. So I was suggesting to keep the leds at about the same distance from the windows wherever possible.
> 
> If anyone is thinking about using the 'translucent' white windows in conjunction with the light kit, thinking they will illuminate better....
> When I built a test shot with the light kit, I found that those windows didn't light up that well.
> 
> IMHO, those windows are best for someone who isn't planning on lighting their kit.
> 
> HOWEVER - I thought that using the translucent white for the lower saucer was kind of cool.
> Thats one of the great things about the kit are the options it gives you.


Mike - can you please elaborate on what you mean by using translucent white for the lower saucer?


----------



## SteveR

ClubTepes said:


> In the case of painting the inside of the saucer, I'm still going to paint 2/3 the distance from the inner wall to the windows silver, for sure.
> To get the light over that hump from the bottom of the saucer.
> The outer third I'll likely paint white in agreement with what others have said, as I want to get some of that light bouncing up into the rectangular windows on the upper saucer.


Indeed. I'm advocating the use of white in the areas that can be seen through the windows, to avoid seeing reflected hotspots through the windows. As for "before the hump", which can't be seen through the windows, then silver would be quite appropriate.

Ideally, I'd like to place the LEDs after the hump. Maybe attach the LEDs so they aim right at the main windows and run a thin strip of frosted clear plastic and around the inside about an inch short of the main windows, like a ring, to diffuse the LEDs? Hmm ... it might look almost like a fluorescent ring?


----------



## irishtrek

feek61 said:


> I would by no means call this any sort of conclusive proof. Keep in mind that the photo on the right was restored so basically the nacelles could have been any color and just restored to the orange tinted domes due to the restorers preference or "best guess." Personally I don't see how if the domes were orange tinted how we can see blue, green and particularly white flashes when you see it on screen. In certain third season episodes there clearly is a plane white flasher in the nacelle which if the dome was tinted orange we would not be able to see (because it would be orange due to the tint of the dome). Just my opinion of course but I do not think there was an orange tint.


That pic on the left side of my screen looks to be a very pale orange which suggests to me they were tinted orange. So then were they orange on the inside or the outside???


----------



## Gary K

RICHjm said:


> Okay... maybe I should phrase this as a direct question;...GARY were these bridge decals present on the rollout version? Thank you?
> View attachment 165495


Not so far as I can tell. It looks like they added more detail to the model prior to filming. The bridge markings and weathering/panel lines on the upper saucer were presumably added because those areas of the ship were prominently featured in the zoom-in shot at the beginning of "The Cage".

Gary


----------



## woof359

what was missing from the 11 footer when the Smithsonian got it ?


----------



## RICHjm

Thank you Gary.That is what I was thinking as well.Some details were added when they prepped for first pilot. As far as I can see the secondary hulls numbered position markers being one of them. Available pics are so old, grainy or badly restored to get true details.
And then with only so many limited angles to be seen. _RICH.


----------



## RICHjm

You know thinking about it the Enterprise rollout version was of a "rocket" spaceship.
I guess one could say,and perhaps thank,the "Cage" pilot for putting on and giving us our first star-ship with P/S navigational lights. _RICH.


----------



## MartinHatfield

Has anyone else come up with the colors for the Enterprise using Mr. Color paints? Is there a chart out there that will allow me to match up the colors that R2 lists on the box art?


----------



## RICHjm

There doesnt seem to be a cross match from Tamiya to Mr Color.







tamiya xf-12 jn gray

Perhaps Mr Color's #35-IJN GRAY and/or #56-IJN GrayGreen may be of help.







mr color chart (click able to enlarge)


----------



## onigiri

And yet you say yourself that the orange IS present in the unlit original shot. Taken with a grain of salt perhaps but even by your own admission you see the orange in the UN retouched shot. As to Feeks assertions it is stated PALE orange which a hot white light would certainly burn through. So we can all agree to disagree but Im going with the orange TINT as it makes sense to me.



SteveR said:


> Definitely. Orange has been added to the dome in the right shot. See how the dome in the left shot has a white area near the top; there's a gradation from white to pale orange. However, that gradation has been lost in the dome in the right shot; it's solid orange. This tells me that the "restored" shots are to be taken with a grain of salt.


----------



## RossW

Question about the PE instructions: for the warp engine grills, it says, "Form etch parts 45 & 46 over their respective kit parts (being 0.005" they will not require annealing, but should be taped in place to hold them steady)".

What does that mean, exactly? I've not yet worked with PE so this is new to me. Does it mane to tape the PE in place while bending over the ends? How to bend them when they're in place?

Also, it says to flip kit parts 31 on the pylons so there's a smooth face behind the PE. For the warp engine grills, though, I don't think you can flip parts 45 & 46 so I guess you have to sand off the existing plastic detail before gluing the PE?


----------



## BruceDownunder

I got this! :thumbsup:
Working with PE can be equal parts fun & frustration.
What you want to do is lay a 6" strip of masking tape sticky side up on a flat surface. Then put your PE part on the tape with the outward facing surface attached to the tape to hold it in place - you don't need to apply too much pressure. Get your plastic kit part and then apply either a thin layer of CA glue or clear nail varnish on the back of the PE part. The CA will not be as forgiving in placement as the nail varnish as it will 'grab' the plastic piece - so be sure of your placement first. If using CA, apply thin dots with a toothpick close to the corners and dotted intermittently across the surface to avoid clouding or blemishing of the PE. When the plastic is exactly where you want it (ie equal in distance around both of the edges), lift the tape while holding down the plastic part in the centre with a paintbrush or cotton bud so that the PE bends itself up and over the edge. You can apply glue to the edges with a toothpick if you want, but the PE should keep its shape.
Hope this helps.


----------



## Paulbo

That's a cool technique, I'll give it a try myself.

What we meant by taping the parts was to place the etch on top of the part, get it centered (or lined up along the one end for the long one which only has the foldover at one end) then tape it into position. Next, use the kit part as a form and bend the etch over the part to the right shape.

Then, remove part and the tape and attach it with super-glue as Bruce explained.

BTW - I think the parts were a bit different on my prototype. If you're lighting using the clear parts there's no need to flip over the parts. If you're not lighting, then I'd fill the holes in the kit parts (a quick swipe of Tamiya Fine White Primer then clear off the excess with a rubbing alcohol soaked Q-tip). If you're lighting with your own lighting, cut some clear plastic (don't have the kit parts nearby so I can't spec the thickness) and file the ends to match the kit parts.


----------



## RossW

Paulbo said:


> That's a cool technique, I'll give it a try myself.
> 
> What we meant by taping the parts was to place the etch on top of the part, get it centered (or lined up along the one end for the long one which only has the foldover at one end) then tape it into position. Next, use the kit part as a form and bend the etch over the part to the right shape.
> 
> Then, remove part and the tape and attach it with super-glue as Bruce explained.
> 
> BTW - I think the parts were a bit different on my prototype. If you're lighting using the clear parts there's no need to flip over the parts. If you're not lighting, then I'd fill the holes in the kit parts (a quick swipe of Tamiya Fine White Primer then clear off the excess with a rubbing alcohol soaked Q-tip). If you're lighting with your own lighting, cut some clear plastic (don't have the kit parts nearby so I can't spec the thickness) and file the ends to match the kit parts.


So, you form the warp engine grill PE part over the plastic kit part but then you don't use the plastic kit part in the finished model? Can't you see through the PE? And why form the PE end at all - why not just make the PE the right dimension?

As to your last paragraph, Paul, which part are you referring to here?


----------



## Paulbo

RossW said:


> So, you form the warp engine grill PE part over the plastic kit part but then you don't use the plastic kit part in the finished model?...


You can *try* to mount the PE directly to the warp engine, but being only 0.005" thick it will be very fragile. Using the kit supplied parts provides structure.



RossW said:


> ...Can't you see through the PE?...


Yes, you can see through the holes in the etch.



RossW said:


> ...And why form the PE end at all - why not just make the PE the right dimension?...


The etch parts ARE the right dimension. The ends of the actual ship parts are not flat. At the ends the ship grills are bent over.



RossW said:


> ...As to your last paragraph, Paul, which part are you referring to here?


I'm referring to the same kit grill part I've mentioned all along. The clear sheet would be to provide structure for the PE.


----------



## Captain April

woof359 said:


> what was missing from the 11 footer when the Smithsonian got it ?


The domes, both inner and outer, were missing from both nacelles, as was the deflector dish and possibly a few other odds and ends, like maybe the lower sensor dome. Probably recycled into other projects by the Paramount prop guys. That, or they got damaged and subsequently tossed out with the trash.


----------



## FyreTigger

Paulbo said:


> I've looked at the half-instructions posted on the Round 2 site (only page 2 of 2 pages) and it looks like the lighting kit comes with lights for the warp nacelles - they're optional, but the kit does include lights for them.
> 
> 
> I haven't seen the wiring diagram. My guess, though, is that it wouldn't be a problem to add some wire and switches of your own to do that. :wave:


Thanks! And sorry for the slow "Thank you". Got busy with a visiting friend.


----------



## seattleguy

Hello. I just received the window masks from CultTVman and have a question. From what I can tell in the fan mask section, there are 11 fan masks per nacelle for a total of 22 but there are 12 fan blades per nacelle for 24 total. Are there 2 more masks somewhere on the sheet that I just haven't found for am I counting the blades wrong?


----------



## BARRYZ28

seattleguy said:


> Hello. I just received the window masks from CultTVman and have a question. From what I can tell in the fan mask section, there are 11 fan masks per nacelle for a total of 22 but there are 12 fan blades per nacelle for 24 total. Are there 2 more masks somewhere on the sheet that I just haven't found for am I counting the blades wrong?


Extras that's all


----------



## seattleguy

No, there are not extras, there are not enough masks for the blades. There should be 2 more based on what I can see.


----------



## Lou Dalmaso

oops I miscounted. there are indeed 22 strips..uh

if you extend the side lines with an xacto, you can make the two additional pieces


----------



## seattleguy

That's the problem. I checked over and over and only count 22 in the fan blade section.


----------



## Lou Dalmaso

HEADS WILL ROLL! I intend to punish my designer for this!


----------



## seattleguy

No! Please, have mercy. It's not a big deal, I just wanted to make sure I'm not stupid and couldn't count.


----------



## seattleguy

Your fix will work. Thanks!


----------



## woof359

*part #133*

is this a window or a nav light ?:freak:


----------



## irishtrek

woof359 said:


> is this a window or a nav light ?:freak:


Every time I see that in a pic it's a red light so my guess is it's a nav or formation light.


----------



## Gary K

woof359 said:


> is this a window or a nav light ?:freak:


On the 11-footer it's a clear white bulb in a raised metal bezel. It flashes fairly quickly - a lot like a strobe on an airliner.

Gary


----------



## woof359

*nav light*

well. it's not a window then, good enough for me, thanks for the info. :thumbsup:


----------



## mbss1979

If one is not planning to light the kit, I think a clear thin coat of clear Orange would look good on the domes, would still let the painted/tinted bulbs from the kit show through.

Also, found that Kristal Klear works good for the windows. If you want to make some look lit, mix some Acryl gloss white in with the Klear, dries to a nice, white, lit looking port! And for the Dark windows, just use the Klear.


----------



## Paulbo

mbss1979 said:


> If one is not planning to light the kit, I think a clear thin coat of clear Orange would look good on the domes, would still let the painted/tinted bulbs from the kit show through.
> 
> Also, found that Kristal Klear works good for the windows. If you want to make some look lit, mix some Acryl gloss white in with the Klear, dries to a nice, white, lit looking port! And for the Dark windows, just use the Klear.


Great idea to fill the KK with acryl white, mbss1979. Do you have any trouble keeping the Krystal Klear up at the surface of the window?


----------



## mbss1979

Nope, it fills the window perfectly! I'll drop some Microscale gloss over the KK to set and seal it.


----------



## RICHjm

In regards to the lighting kits two PC boards.Do all the wire plug ins have to be present in order to still work? Like if you left off ,didnt use the two plug jacks marked (N) would this break the circuit?


----------



## woof359

engine nacelles took a little more TLC than I had originly thought, ran out of AS-2 again, I wish Tamiya made bigger rattle cans, but I probly couldn't afford them. off to the LHS .....


----------



## Paulbo

mbss1979 said:


> Nope, it fills the window perfectly! I'll drop some Microscale gloss over the KK to set and seal it.


Great! That's what I was planning on, but wasn't sure if I'd have to thin the walls around the windows to make the KK hug the outside of the hull - I've never used it with anything this thick.

Thanks for the gloss idea to seal them.

I'm thinking that even lit, adding a small amount of the white acryl might make them pick up the light a bit better. Hmmm - experiment time.


----------



## John P

woof359 said:


> engine nacelles took a little more TLC than I had originly thought, ran out of AS-2 again, I wish Tamiya made bigger rattle cans, but I probly couldn't afford them. off to the LHS .....


Yah! I used a while can just on the nacelles!


----------



## Trek Ace

John P said:


> Yah! I used a while can just on the nacelles!


A whole while can?


----------



## Nova Designs

"My God that's a big ship..."


----------



## dreadnaught726

Ended up using 3 cans for entire ship. I have one can left.


----------



## Nova Designs

So why did you guys choose to spray can rather than airbrush? Besides the obvious, you don't have an airbrush... because I know John P does.


----------



## Trekkriffic

Nova Designs said:


> So why did you guys choose to spray can rather than airbrush? Besides the obvious, you don't have an airbrush... because I know John P does.


Are they talkikng about spray cans of PRIMER? Or did they use spray cans for the final coats? I could see spray cans for primer but I'd want a little more control for final coats. Still, to each is own.


----------



## Nova Designs

AS-20 is the main gray hull color according to google...


----------



## irishtrek

I discovered last year that future floor polish will work as a prmer for acrylic paints and yesterday I air brushed the big E with future and today I did some touch up before I air brushed it with MM acrylic and after just a few minutes the paint had some thin streaks of exposed plastic in it where before, right after I'd painted, there were no streaks of exposed plastic. The only thing I can think of is the out side temperture is about 40-45 degrees. Any other ideas as to why this occured??? The problem can be fixed, I just need to sand and repaint but I don't want a repeat of the problem.


----------



## Skyking918

It's probably because the areas you touched up with Future weren't given enough time to thoroughly dry before you airbrushed the MM acrylic. I've never used Future as a primer, but when I have used it, I've always allowed 24 hours minimum for it to dry/cure.


----------



## dreadnaught726

Nova Designs said:


> So why did you guys choose to spray can rather than airbrush? Besides the obvious, you don't have an airbrush... because I know John P does.


Spray can covers a much greater area in less time. No thinning and best of all....no cleaning.


----------



## woof359

*the hassle*

sand, spray, clean, sand , spray, clean, sand, spray clean.................

it was just so much easier to use rattle cans, the color isnt what I wood have prefered but close, but next time i wont use tamiya @ $8.50 a can


----------



## woof359

*can size*

spray, where the ^^&^)*%$$# did that seem come from, fill, spray, another pit ? _(&$##@&&**...spray sand, spray , sand> i hate seems. I think this is the 3rd time I wet sanded the nacelles, 100 mL can, $8.50 ouch !


----------



## BolianAdmiral

One way to wipe out the wretched, wrong, and inaccurate gridlines:

http://resinilluminati.com/showthread.php?p=245145#post245145


----------



## RossW

BolianAdmiral said:


> One way to wipe out the wretched, wrong, and inaccurate gridlines:
> 
> http://resinilluminati.com/showthread.php?p=245145#post245145


I think that's doing a disservice to the people who've put so much time and effort into researching the 11' studio miniature and brought that knowledge to the production of this kit. You many disagree with them being there, and want to fill them in, but that kind of commentary isn't needed. In my humble opinion.


----------



## ClubTepes

BolianAdmiral said:


> One way to wipe out the wretched, wrong, and inaccurate gridlines:
> 
> http://resinilluminati.com/showthread.php?p=245145#post245145


Matter of opinion, not fact. That horse is beyond dead.

Its been ground thats been trodden over many times. That IMHO doesn't deserve any more explanation.

There are plenty of ways to remove the grid lines if you don't care for them.

I've recommended Tamiya's liquid brush-on primer more times than i care to count.
Simply brush it into the grid lines and sand flush. A lot less sanding than the link you posted suggests.


----------



## woof359

*engine rings*

I rear the 3 rings are suppose to be hull color and the lighting makes them look darker than that, But for me Im thinking a little darker shade than the hull well make them look better sitting on a shelf in room light. I went with as-2 navy grey for the hull and as-7 neutral grey for the rings, impulse engine and aft nacelles end.


----------



## Gary K

woof359 said:


> I rear the 3 rings are suppose to be hull color and the lighting makes them look darker than that, But for me Im thinking a little darker shade than the hull well make them look better sitting on a shelf in room light. I went with as-2 navy grey for the hull and as-7 neutral grey for the rings, impulse engine and aft nacelles end.


The rings were hull color, but they had darker weathering in the recesses between them to make them stand out on TV.. You might consider trying that first.

Gary


----------



## Prologic9

ClubTepes said:


> Matter of opinion, not fact. That horse is beyond dead.


Well let's be fair, it is a fact that engraved grid-lines are inaccurate. Not that we shouldn't be civil about it, but I do hope you guys will come to realize it was a mistake to include them.


----------



## irishtrek

Skyking918 said:


> It's probably because the areas you touched up with Future weren't given enough time to thoroughly dry before you airbrushed the MM acrylic. I've never used Future as a primer, but when I have used it, I've always allowed 24 hours minimum for it to dry/cure.


I'm thinking the same thing so I'll sand clean and redo the future tomorrow and the next day paint, although the streaks/cracks don't appear to be isolated to the areas that I touched up.


----------



## woof359

*rings*



Gary K said:


> The rings were hull color, but they had darker weathering in the recesses between them to make them stand out on TV.. You might consider trying that first.
> 
> Gary


got an idea for the rings using hull color, front side hull color, back side a little darker gray


----------



## onigiri

No, it wasnt a mistake it was a decision. It was also a decision not to include gaping holes in one side of the model and to have both nacelles fully detailed. Freakin' drop it. So tired of this and this constant BS of bringing it up is childish and inane. Fill them in or leave them on. Just stop bringing it up in any manner other than how to (politely) remove them if desired. I lurk more than post for precisely this sort of nonsense. You say to be civil then act as if the rest of us are uninformed newbs if we dont think it was a 'mistake'. Its also insulting to those who designed the model who made a PROFESSIONAL decision and every comment like yours and the previous one just aggravate the situation. MOVE ON, people! 
Gary next time please make a model that includes all the blemishes, holes, wonky engraved lines and and a very fine pencil because we all know that in the 23d Century panel lines will all be hand drawn in with graphite. 



Prologic9 said:


> Well let's be fair, it is a fact that engraved grid-lines are inaccurate. Not that we shouldn't be civil about it, but I do hope you guys will come to realize it was a mistake to include them.


----------



## ffejG

onigiri said:


> No, it wasnt a mistake it was a decision. It was also a decision not to include gaping holes in one side of the model and to have both nacelles fully detailed. Freakin' drop it. So tired of this and this constant BS of bringing it up is childish and inane. Fill them in or leave them on. Just stop bringing it up in any manner other than how to (politely) remove them if desired. I lurk more than post for precisely this sort of nonsense. You say to be civil then act as if the rest of us are uninformed newbs if we dont think it was a 'mistake'. Its also insulting to those who designed the model who made a PROFESSIONAL decision and every comment like yours and the previous one just aggravate the situation. MOVE ON, people!
> Gary next time please make a model that includes all the blemishes, holes, wonky engraved lines and and a very fine pencil because we all know that in the 23d Century panel lines will all be hand drawn in with graphite.


Thank you! Well said. Hear, hear.


----------



## Paulbo

BolianAdmiral said:


> One way to wipe out the wretched, wrong, and inaccurate gridlines:
> 
> http://resinilluminati.com/showthread.php?p=245145#post245145


:beatdeadhorse:


----------



## fire91bird

Prologic9 said:


> Well let's be fair, it is a fact that engraved grid-lines are inaccurate. Not that we shouldn't be civil about it, but I do hope you guys will come to realize it was a mistake to include them.


Well it depends on what your measure of accuracy is. If it's the 11' miniature, then no, they shouldn't be there. Nor should a detailed port side. The fact is, the 11' itself is a model of a "real" ship and as such, what those pencil lines represent is left up to interpretation. Since there is no "real" ship to compare it to, there is no definitive answer and it is only an opinion that to include them was a mistake.


----------



## John P

Trek Ace said:


> A whole while can?


While using a whole can...


----------



## Prologic9

onigiri said:


> No, it wasnt a mistake it was a decision. It was also a decision not to include gaping holes in one side of the model and to have both nacelles fully detailed. Freakin' drop it. So tired of this and this constant BS of bringing it up is childish and inane. Fill them in or leave them on. Just stop bringing it up in any manner other than how to (politely) remove them if desired. I lurk more than post for precisely this sort of nonsense. You say to be civil then act as if the rest of us are uninformed newbs if we dont think it was a 'mistake'. Its also insulting to those who designed the model who made a PROFESSIONAL decision and every comment like yours and the previous one just aggravate the situation. MOVE ON, people!
> Gary next time please make a model that includes all the blemishes, holes, wonky engraved lines and and a very fine pencil because we all know that in the 23d Century panel lines will all be hand drawn in with graphite.


I don't want Round 2 to pretend like the grid-lines were a rousing success, so I'm going to voice my opinion when I feel appropriate. I'm not going to harp on about it, I'm not going to be rude about it, and I'm not going to let my comments devolve into mindless accusatory drivel.

I doubt that we'll ever stop hearing about the lines, not as long as people are building this model (which I hope will be for a long time coming). But I'd like to think the real 'proof' of the models success & failures will come with the builds we see.


----------



## TrekFX

I supposed my biggest disappointment is the lack of a detailed interior for the Galileo shuttlecraft. :wave:

*
*
*
*
*
*
You know I'm joking. :hat:


----------



## charonjr

A rousing success? Gary specified the model was designed for all model builders, not the select few who wanted it to be only one way or the other. Such a decision rarely invites the expectation of a particular detail to be a rousing success. R2 is aiming for everyone in the market. The fixes are simple for any corrections anyone feels need to be made.


----------



## Skyking918

Someone wisely has said that the kit is "a model of the _Enterprise_, not a model of a model of the _Enterprise_." It is based on today's technology, not the relatively crude special effects technology that gave us the _Enterprise_ that we remember from the 1960s TV show. It is a representation of how the Enterprise was *supposed* to look, at least in my mind's eye and apparently that of others as well.

In the opinion of this 66-year-old, the Polar Lights 1/350 _Enterprise_ is one of the best-designed, best-engineered plastic model kits of any subject he has seen in the course of a modeling hobby that goes back 60 years to the "pre-shaped" Comet and Strombecker wood kits — maybe *the* best.


----------



## ClubTepes

Here is hoping that the Mods will place a perm-a-ban on an any posts that incite the 'grid-line debate'.

Tips about removing them is of course encouraged.

But in this persons opinion, slamming (grid lines specifically) as 'inaccurate' or a 'mistake' is only trolling for a heated, non-productive argument, that distracts from the topic at hand.


----------



## Skyking918

ClubTepes said:


> perm-a-ban


Love the term! :thumbsup: You should copyright it.


----------



## SteveR

ClubTepes said:


> Tips about removing them is of course encouraged.


Exactly. This is a how-to tips and tricks thread, about model building. Regarding gridlines, it's about how to a) fill gridlines, b) draw gridlines, c) paint gridlines, or d) scribe gridlines.


----------



## SFCOM1

Skyking918 said:


> Love the term! :thumbsup: You should copyright it.


Perm-a-ban Your wonder Hobbytalk product. Gar-n-teed to stop thse nasty "Heated Topics". Get yours today!

(Just $149.99 for shipping, handling, and taxes. Other fees may apply. Your millage may vary. Do not use with other Hobbytalk topics, as rash actions or other feverious arguments may occur! Consut your Moderator if such events happen. Discontune use if Perm-a Ban causes your account to be banned instead. Use only as directed.)


----------



## SFCOM1

Dup Post, dis-reguard and delete please!


----------



## John P

Nova Designs said:


> So why did you guys choose to spray can rather than airbrush? Besides the obvious, you don't have an airbrush... because I know John P does.


It's so freakin HUGE!!! I don't wanna sit there spraying 1 inch wide strips on something that big, it'll take forever!



Trekkriffic said:


> Are they talkikng about spray cans of PRIMER? Or did they use spray cans for the final coats? I could see spray cans for primer but I'd want a little more control for final coats. Still, to each is own.


It's... all one base color. What's to control? 



Nova Designs said:


> AS-20 is the main gray hull color according to google...


Gah! I used AS-2, which says "IJN Gray." Rats. I like the way it came out, though (just have the nacelles done so far).


----------



## SteveR

AS-20 is insignia white, which is too pale, I think.


----------



## irishtrek

Regarding this disagreement over grid lines, eveyone is entitled to their own opinion. Leave them be or remove them, it is up to each and every single builder what they want to do with them. Period. No ifs, ands or buts about it. Do what _you_ want and let every one else have their own opinon about grid lines.


----------



## santee

Come on guys! enough already, this is a "tips and tricks" thread. Lets please keep it On Topic so fellow modelers can actually find the "tips and tricks" without having to read and filter out pages of off topic non sense.

Here's my technique for adding the pencil grid lines back on after filling them.

Before you begin, pencil rub the original engraved grid lines, this will help you line things up later. As an alternative, measurement the spacing off the original. Either way, prepare in advance before everything is covered up!

Pencil Grid Lines:
-Drill a small hole in the center plastic waste area then insert a finishing nail. This will be the center pivot point. (see photo #1)
-Tie a sting loosely around the nail allowing it to pivot around the nail freely. 
-Tie the other end around a pencil, again loosely to allow it to pivot.
-Use the original rubbing as a template to draw the new lines onto the surface.

Intersecting Lines
-The intersecting lines can be drawn on with the aid of a piece of thin Styrene. The Styrene will follow the contour of the surface nicely. (see photo #2) 
-Using the original rubbing as a template, mark where the lines exit at the outer most point of the disk. 
-At the other end, make sure the edge of the Styrene is on center with the nail. File or cut a half circle notch into Styrene so that all converging lines will terminate (or begin) at the *center of the nail* and not on the side edge of the nail.

PS, Mods please clean up this thread.


----------



## RossW

Probably due to the influence of the AMT 18" kit, I had thought the 3 'restraining bolts' on the outer nacelle dome (kit part #139) were symmetrical (i.e. 120 deg positions) but on this kit they're not - the two upper bolts are closer to each other than with the bottom one.

So here's my question: if the whole outer/inner dome/light disk assembly slides into part #41, how do you orient the assembly so the two upper restraining bolts are centered?


----------



## Gary K

RossW said:


> Probably due to the influence of the AMT 18" kit, I had thought the 3 'restraining bolts' on the outer nacelle dome (kit part #139) were symmetrical (i.e. 120 deg positions) but on this kit they're not - the two upper bolts are closer to each other than with the bottom one.
> 
> So here's my question: if the whole outer/inner dome/light disk assembly slides into part #41, how do you orient the assembly so the two upper restraining bolts are centered?


The upper two restraining bolts are spaced at right angles to one another, when seen from the front. I suppose you could center the upper two bolts on the tiny formation light (Pt 138) on top of the fwd section of each nacelle (Pt 41).

Gary


----------



## Trekkriffic

Gary K said:


> The upper two restraining bolts are spaced at right angles to one another, when seen from the front. I suppose you could center the upper two bolts on the tiny formation light (Pt 138) on top of the fwd section of each nacelle (Pt 41).
> 
> Gary


I haven't gone over the kit parts that thoroughly yet but I'm pleased to hear that Round 2 included a part for those tiny formation lights at tghe tops of the bussard collars. That right there tells me they thought of everything.

One other question for you Gary, are the kit parts for the two lights on either side of the bridge, the little red lights opposite each other on the sides of Deck A, are they conical? I believe that's how they are on the 11 footer.


----------



## Gary K

Trekkriffic said:


> One other question for you Gary, are the kit parts for the two lights on either side of the bridge, the little red lights opposite each other on the sides of Deck A, are they conical? I believe that's how they are on the 11 footer.


They're *supposed* to be conical - 0.057" high and 0.061" in diameter. Basically, start wuth a traffic cone shape, lop off the top one-third, and round off the remaining two-thirds of the cone.

Gary


----------



## santee

Trekkriffic said:


> One other question for you Gary, are the kit parts for the two lights on either side of the bridge, the little red lights opposite each other on the sides of Deck A, are they conical? I believe that's how they are on the 11 footer.


I have a question too. Would it not benefit this thread to start another one for questions to Gary? It would be great to not have to find some of these wonderful answers buried here.


----------



## RossW

Gary K said:


> The upper two restraining bolts are spaced at right angles to one another, when seen from the front. I suppose you could center the upper two bolts on the tiny formation light (Pt 138) on top of the fwd section of each nacelle (Pt 41).
> 
> Gary


Thanks Gary. Maybe I'll mark the underside where the bottom restraining bolt will go and line it up that way.


----------



## irishtrek

santee said:


> I have a question too. Would it not benefit this thread to start another one for questions to Gary? It would be great to not have to find some of these wonderful answers buried here.


Good idea, gets my vote.:thumbsup:


----------



## Prologic9

santee said:


> I have a question too. Would it not benefit this thread to start another one for questions to Gary? It would be great to not have to find some of these wonderful answers buried here.


I feel a bit bad for Gary. He's answered a lot of questions and people just expect more answers because of it. It some cases they've practically demanded a response from Him, and He's taken it all in good stride. 

So, a thread like that would be welcome, but only if Gary wants to start it I would say. 

Alternatively we could create a new thread and copy/paste all the various questions/answers that He's addressed into it, so that they're all in one place.


----------



## BolianAdmiral

SteveR said:


> Exactly. This is a how-to tips and tricks thread, about model building. Regarding gridlines, it's about how to a) fill gridlines, b) draw gridlines, c) paint gridlines, or d) scribe gridlines.


Exactly. There ARE those among us who do not wish to have those inaccurate lines on our model, so I am sharing a link to a method for removing them. Granted, it's not my tip... someone else posted it, and I provided a link. The photos he posted of his end result seemed to look pretty good, too, so I figured some here would be interested in it.


----------



## santee

santee said:


> I have a question too. Would it not benefit this thread to start another one for questions to Gary? It would be great to not have to find some of these wonderful answers buried here.





Prologic9 said:


> I feel a bit bad for Gary. He's answered a lot of questions and people just expect more answers because of it. It some cases they've practically demanded a response from Him, and He's taken it all in good stride.
> 
> So, a thread like that would be welcome, but only if Gary wants to start it I would say.
> 
> Alternatively we could create a new thread and copy/paste all the various questions/answers that He's addressed into it, so that they're all in one place.


My point exactly. A specific questions thread would allow Gary to breath a bit. 

Project for the mods (or new owners of HT)  Combined all the questions to Gary and all the answers which he was kind enough to answer specific to TOS Enterprise model. 

I've stumbled across so many great questions and insightful answers buried in so many of these threads. 

Perhaps it's time to consolidate all this useful info, ultimately benefiting the modeler.:thumbsup:


----------



## RossW

BolianAdmiral said:


> Exactly. There ARE those among us who do not wish to have those inaccurate lines on our model, so I am sharing a link to a method for removing them. Granted, it's not my tip... someone else posted it, and I provided a link. The photos he posted of his end result seemed to look pretty good, too, so I figured some here would be interested in it.


That's whatayacall disingenuous. It's not the link to how someone else removed the gridlines that's the problem but rather your unnecessary and patently ridiculous editorial comment which preceded it. If you had just posted the link without the nonsense no one would have said anything.

There have been enough postings on how to remove them should a modeler choose. Plenty of good tips there. Let's move on to other tips & tricks. Here's one: if you're using the lighting kit + motor then make sure you point the amber bulb parts toward the centre enough that the inner dome doesn't rub against them. If you glue them in place you could be surprised afterwards - luckily, the clear parts are a snug enough fit that there's really no reason to glue them, which then allows you to play with the positioning once the assembly is test fitted.


----------



## woof359

well< i painted the rings hull color on the back side and dark gray on the front side, *while* it made them stand out better than just all hull color they didnt stand out enought so I added a touch of dark gray to the hull color, much better


----------



## Captain April

Prologic9 said:


> Well let's be fair, it is a fact that engraved grid-lines are inaccurate. Not that we shouldn't be civil about it, but I do hope you guys will come to realize it was a mistake to include them.


It's also inaccurate to have a finished port side, round saucer, parallel nacelles of the same length, etc.


----------



## starmanmm

*Reference shots*

just posting this site for reference shots that may help.....

http://www.flickr.com/photos/birdofthegalaxy/sets/72157619514479789/


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## Prowler901

Now that's awesome! Thanks for that link. :thumbsup:


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## starmanmm

giving my 2 cents.

After reading the last 20 pages (yeah, been behind on this) I guess I'll have to pop open my premier kits and see if they have any issues.

On another thread, was talk about the weathering decals.... one way I had done the rust ring was to use pastels. I liked the results. It was easy to do and to control the results.


----------



## FyreTigger

starmanmm said:


> giving my 2 cents.
> 
> After reading the last 20 pages (yeah, been behind on this) I guess I'll have to pop open my premier kits and see if they have any issues.
> 
> On another thread, was talk about the weathering decals.... one way I had done the rust ring was to use pastels. I liked the results. It was easy to do and to control the results.


I asked about the rust ring. Pastels occurred to me as well. But I haven't done that kind of weathering... okay... this century! So, could you elaborate a bit as to how you would go about that? Thanks!


----------



## robiwon

Using pastels is easy, but like any new technique it requires practise.

You can pick up a set of Earth tone pastels (they come in little sticks, like chalk) pretty much anywhere that sells art supplies. Stores like Walmart, Meijer, Hobby Lobby, Michaels, etc. Take a pastel stick and some sandpaper and rub the stick over a piece of paper or something to catch the dust that drops off. I use plastic coffee can lids. Pastels can be "mixed" like paint, just sand another color and mix the dust with a paintbrush. When you are happy with the color the fun begins. Mask off the rust ring area on the saucer so that just the ring is exposed. Take a brush and get some of your rust colored powder on it. Brush the powder onto the model. It may take a few applications to build up the color. Once your happy with the color you can remove the tape. Seal the powder with your favorite clear. If your not happy with the results, a wet paper towel can remove the chalk from the surface before sealing.

Take note that when you seal pastels they will be a slightly darker color. It would be better to make your rust color a little lighter by adding some white to it when your mixing it up at the beggining.

Here is an example of pastels. The red on the engines and yellow panel on the fuselage were done with brushing on pastel powder and then sealing. By masking the area off you get sharp seperation between the colors, just like paint. Click on the picture for a larger view.


----------



## Trekkriffic

robiwon said:


> Using pastels is easy, but like any new technique it requires practise.
> 
> You can pick up a set of Earth tone pastels (they come in little sticks, like chalk) pretty much anywhere that sells art supplies. Stores like Walmart, Meijer, Hobby Lobby, Michaels, etc. Take a pastel stick and some sandpaper and rub the stick over a piece of paper or something to catch the dust that drops off. I use plastic coffee can lids. Pastels can be "mixed" like paint, just sand another color and mix the dust with a paintbrush. When you are happy with the color the fun begins. Mask off the rust ring area on the saucer so that just the ring is exposed. Take a brush and get some of your rust colored powder on it. Brush the powder onto the model. It may take a few applications to build up the color. Once your happy with the color you can remove the tape. Seal the powder with your favorite clear. If your not happy with the results, a wet paper towel can remove the chalk from the surface before sealing.
> 
> Take note that when you seal pastels they will be a slightly darker color. It would be better to make your rust color a little lighter by adding some white to it when your mixing it up at the beggining.
> 
> Here is an example of pastels. The red on the engines and yellow panel on the fuselage were done with brushing on pastel powder and then sealing. By masking the area off you get sharp seperation between the colors, just like paint. Click on the picture for a larger view.


After sealing if it's still too dark you can also go back in and airbrush some of the basecolor over it to make it more subtle.


----------



## publiusr

O/T
Now I wonder if you could use vacuform/blow-molds with this substance--scotchlight
http://shop.novoworks.com/3M-Scotchlite-Reflective-Vinyl.html

Now this, perhaps mixed with paint and lit with mercury vapor lamps would yield the painfully bright blue-white look from the original series, although you would have to use zip-a-tone (screentone) for the decals to allow light to bleed through else the decals would look too dark:

Also, vacuform/blowmolds allow for better self-illumination via the raytheon effect as lit from beneath, seeing as internal support mechanisms on clear injection molds may allow for internal shadows. One day someone might find a way to vacuform LED strips or flexible screen displays. So Kerr-based yard dispalys might be something to play around with, to approach the warm NBC yellow? I don't think they allow for Radium paint for that anymore 

Very strong whites and blacks
http://phys.org/news95513144.html
http://www.sciencespacerobots.com/blog/130081
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/03/ultrablack/

Glow in the dark paint http://glonation.com/

I wonder if a multi-armed robot could remove material all in one go from a solid piece of acrylic with a rod at the base allowed for a light pipe. Paint all over and maybe you have a uniform glow from all parts.


----------



## Opus Penguin

Trekkriffic said:


> After sealing if it's still too dark you can also go back in and airbrush some of the basecolor over it to make it more subtle.


This is the route I plan to go. I have the decals (part of the combo pack) but had no plans to use them.

I should add ... I plan to airbrush the rust ring. The weathering I will use pastels then paint over it all to subdue the color a bit.


----------



## starmanmm

As what has been said... go light with the colors you choose to do the rust ring for when you dust it with dull coat, it will darken slightly.

How I had applied the pastel was with a sponge foam applicator, like what woman use to apply make up with. I went to one of those store that sell woman make up supplies and purchased a small foam applicator. The harder I pressed down on the pastel covered foam applicator the deep the color was left behind. So, start off by going lightly and expect to go over it again to get it to the color tone you are looking for.

That's about it.

I didn't mask off the area for I didn't want a defined edge. I basically free handed it.

I either used the sand paper method to collect the dust from the pastel stick or use the back of the exacto knive to collect it.


----------



## HabuHunter32

Thanks! I posted in another thread that I just bought the weathering decals and they should arrive next week. I have never used pastels or chalks before and will try a combo of the decals and pastels on my build. I do have one question though. Can you use any art supply chalks ? A long time ago I think that I read that some brands are better than others. Any recomendations of what to buy ? I have been building for over 45 years and still have never tried this. New territory for me...

Thanks in advance!

Mike


----------



## BARRYZ28

HabuHunter32 said:


> Thanks! I posted in another thread that I just bought the weathering decals and they should arrive next week. I have never used pastels or chalks before and will try a combo of the decals and pastels on my build. I do have one question though. Can you use any art supply chalks ? A long time ago I think that I read that some brands are better than others. Any recomendations of what to buy ? I have been building for over 45 years and still have never tried this. New territory for me...
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> 
> Mike


Try it, it gives great results.
here is a great write up that got me started.
http://www.starshipmodeler.com/tech/aw_wx.htm


----------



## Trekkriffic

HabuHunter32 said:


> Thanks! I posted in another thread that I just bought the weathering decals and they should arrive next week. I have never used pastels or chalks before and will try a combo of the decals and pastels on my build. I do have one question though. Can you use any art supply chalks ? A long time ago I think that I read that some brands are better than others. Any recomendations of what to buy ? I have been building for over 45 years and still have never tried this. New territory for me...
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> 
> Mike[/QUOTE)
> 
> Some pastels are chalky. What you want are oil pastels.


----------



## RossW

Got Lou's mask set in the mail from Cult this week so I thought I'd work on fixing the 3 lower saucer rim lights. I had already filled the 6 existing holes with sprue and filed/sanded down to the surface (and cut off the excess on the inside for the one nearest the radial grid line as the window part will overlap it).

It was hard to tell from looking at the vinyl whether there was a curve to one edge of the marking masks so as to align with the outermost concentric circle (and since one of the holes is closer to the edge than the other one and is used for lining it up against one of the radial grid lines, this really means that one should be used for the port side and the other for the starboard). I had placed one on but ended up peeling it off and moving it to the other side - I think there's a slight arc to one side of the vinyl but maybe that's an illusion caused by it being thin enough to be placed slightly askew. After marking the new holes I decided to break out my Staedler draftsman compass with an extension arm - that allowed me to line up the pencil with the 3 existing hole centres and draw an arc through the newly marked hole locations. Thought that might help with the drilling.

Since I have a drill press, I decided to use that instead of hand drilling a small pilot hole and then the final hole - this let me do it in one go:










I eyeballed the centre as best I could but in the end they needed some tweaking with a file to line them up with the window piece (I used the black one for testing my work - thanks PL for thinking of provided sets of black/white & clear for the windows!). Since I didn't have a 3mm drill (I think Gary said the actual hole is just over 3mm) I used a 7/64" bit and enlarged the holes with some fine round needle files.



















The holes aren't perfect so I'll need to putty around them after the windows are in place, but no big whup.


----------



## Gary K

Trekkriffic said:


> One other question for you Gary, are the kit parts for the two lights on either side of the bridge, the little red lights opposite each other on the sides of Deck A, are they conical? I believe that's how they are on the 11 footer.


In my previous answer to your question I forgot to mention that the parts should be inserted from the inside of the bridge with the pointy ends of the lights sticking outward. I've mentioned to Jamie that he might want to make this a bit clearer in future editions of the instruction sheet.

Gary


----------



## jaws62666

Gary K said:


> In my previous answer to your question I forgot to mention that the parts should be inserted from the inside of the bridge with the pointy ends of the lights sticking outward. I've mentioned to Jamie that he might want to make this a bit clearer in future editions of the instruction sheet.
> 
> Gary


Gary I just got the light kit. Question are the running lights on the bottom of the saucer red and green like the top or clear.


----------



## Gary K

jaws62666 said:


> Gary I just got the light kit. Question are the running lights on the bottom of the saucer red and green like the top or clear.


They're clear. A lot of paintings, CG recreations and restored screen caps get that wrong.

Gary


----------



## woof359

*lights*

but should they be green and red, an over site from the Prop people ?


----------



## HabuHunter32

Some pastels are chalky. What you want are oil pastels.[/QUOTE]

Thanks!
Mike


----------



## RossW

woof359 said:


> but should they be green and red, an over site from the Prop people ?


I doubt it was an oversight - Matt Jeffreys was too good for that. But the E in TMP had red & green running lights on the top and bottom (with white lights at the bow) so to each his own.


----------



## feek61

jaws62666 said:


> Gary I just got the light kit. Question are the running lights on the bottom of the saucer red and green like the top or clear.


Although through most of the series the bottom lights were white ;some of the early shots have the red and green on the bottom as well as on the top.

Interesting here because the red is on the wrong side. If you look closely this shot was filmed to be reversed as evidenced by the backwards decals - that's why the colors were reversed:









Here is the shot as it was originally intended with the lights on the proper side. You can also see that the decals are properly orientated now:


----------



## mach7

Green on top, clear on the bottom:



But I'm not sure they were not changed during one of the restorations.


----------



## woof359

*saucer question #2*

clear dome or white dome for production vertion ?


----------



## Gary K

feek61 said:


> Some of the early shots have the red and green on the bottom as well as on the top.
> 
> Interesting here because the red is on the wrong side. If you look closely this shot was filmed to be reversed as evidenced by the backwards decals - that's why the colors were reversed:


Actually, as you can see below, the elements in this film clip were printed slightly out of sync, giving the appearance that the white lower nav lights were changing from red to white to cyan as they blink. If you check out higher-res versions of this scene, which appears in 'The Immunity Syndrome' and other episodes, you can see that the 3 non-blinking bow lights & various windows on the fwd edge of the saucer appear to be slightly double-exposed because one or more of the layers of film were a fraction of a second out of sync when they were combined in the optical printer.

Gary


----------



## Gary K

woof359 said:


> clear dome or white dome for production vertion ?


If you want to duplicate the 11-footer exactly then use the clear dome, but frost it the same as the nacelle domes. Do the same for the 4 lighted rectangles & round bow light, too. The frosted bow light is original to the 11-footer, but the white rectangles we see in NASM shots are replacements for the originals, which were MIA when the model arrived at the museum. 

Gary


----------



## woof359

*owner ship*

who owned the 11 footer after the show was cancelled ? Paramount or Rodenbarry ?

I wonder where it was kept that so many parts are unaccounted for.:freak:


----------



## Gregatron

Gary K said:


> Actually, as you can see below, the elements in this film clip were printed slightly out of sync, giving the appearance that the white lower nav lights were changing from red to white to cyan as they blink. If you check out higher-res versions of this scene, which appears in 'The Immunity Syndrome' and other episodes, you can see that the 3 non-blinking bow lights & various windows on the fwd edge of the saucer appear to be slightly double-exposed because one or more of the layers of film were a fraction of a second out of sync when they were combined in the optical printer.
> 
> Gary




While I totally agree with the above, I still think that colored bulbs were used for those early first season shots. They're just too consistent-- always red (port) and green (starboard). 

In the "Immunity Syndrome" shot seen above, both lights flash white-then-red-then-cyan simultaneously.

I agree that the bulbs were definitely white/clear from the mid-first season-on, but I think that colored bulbs were used for the earliest production-era shots.


In that flopped decal shot feek61 posted, I get the impression that they switched the bulbs (red-starboard, green-port) to help with the flopping effect. Maybe the colored bulbs were lost or damaged during or after the filming of that shot, and were replaced with ordinary white bulbs.


By the way--are the teensy saucer rim formation lights at 3:00 and 9:00 (the 90-degree-oriented ones on the rim itself, not the faux lights on the upper saucer) supposed to flash in-sync with the big blinkers, or are they constantly on?


----------



## M_Jones

HabuHunter32 said:


> Thanks! I posted in another thread that I just bought the weathering decals and they should arrive next week. I have never used pastels or chalks before and will try a combo of the decals and pastels on my build. I do have one question though. Can you use any art supply chalks ? A long time ago I think that I read that some brands are better than others. Any recomendations of what to buy ? I have been building for over 45 years and still have never tried this. New territory for me...


I've always used the chalk pastels for weathering models. Any pre-ground weathering pastels I've purchased have always been the dry powder (chalk) kind too - the same powder you'd get if you sanded or scrapped a dry chalk pastel.

The cheap sets you can get at most big-box stores should work well if the powder is fine enough. Sanding them with an emery board works pretty well for me. Sand and mix colors as needed to get the effect you're looking for.


----------



## TrekFX

A couple quick questions for Gary K.

First is one on-topic: How would you characterize the remaining original weathering you've seen, on the saucer top and, if still present when you've seen it, the B/C deck and bridge dome, moreso the saucer. The streaking and modulation on the forward saucer top seems pretty "busy" and well-defined compared to the typical soft-edged airbrushing. Does the original work look like a worked-in pastel, a close-in freehand airbrush effect, airbrush with an edge mask (like a sheet of paper to give a more defined edge), all of the above, none of the above?

I'm trying to make sense of clues in pre-1990 pictures. Close-ups of the saucer bottom still show hints of the pencil lines and traces of weathering. I get the impression of the first restoration team "cleaning-up" the model more than repainting it. This starts me thinking about less-permanent weathering mediums like pastels.

Second is just curiosity. Photos taken at the early Smithsonian displays and just prior to the start of the latest restoration look like the original "12-rows-of-holes" grilles were present on the inboard portside nacelle trench. Yet replacements not quite accurate to the originals were installed. Would you know why?


----------



## Skyking918

*Copy of an article needed*

I need a copy/scan of the Enterprise article from SciFi & Fantasy Modeler vol. 26. This issue is apparently sold out everywhere. Thanks in advance. 

skyking(at)verizon(dot)net


----------



## Gary K

TrekFX said:


> A couple quick questions for Gary K.
> 
> First is one on-topic: How would you characterize the remaining original weathering you've seen, on the saucer top and, if still present when you've seen it, the B/C deck and bridge dome, moreso the saucer. The streaking and modulation on the forward saucer top seems pretty "busy" and well-defined compared to the typical soft-edged airbrushing. Does the original work look like a worked-in pastel, a close-in freehand airbrush effect, airbrush with an edge mask (like a sheet of paper to give a more defined edge), all of the above, none of the above?


It looks like they used a combination of airbrushing and chalks to achieve the weathering. Remember - the original saucer is 4 times the size of the one on your kit, which automatically makes any sprayed weathering look less soft-edged. In addition, they also emphasized the grid lines by masking off one side of the line and applying weathering to the other side. The "shadows" around the base of the B/C deck and the bridge were airbrushed freehand. I've read on this forum (TrekACE??) that chalks were applied like theatrical makeup to emphasize the lines of the ship on low-res TV sets, and this seems entirely reasonable - esp. in areas like the creases around the "red ring" on the sec hull (which wasn't actually red). 

One of the biggest mistakes I see in models of the TOS Enterprise (and in other models, too) is overly wide and soft sprayed-on weathering, so be sure to use the finest spray settings you can. Millennia ago, in my youth, I achieved excellent results by applying a satin-finish acrylic base coat to a model and then manually adding streaks of weathering with oil-based paint, a paper towel, and some lighter fluid. Simple, but effective. To get other suggestions for weathering I'd urge modelers to consult articles/books written for modelers of armor, ships, and other "dirty" vehicles.



TrekFX said:


> I'm trying to make sense of clues in pre-1990 pictures. Close-ups of the saucer bottom still show hints of the pencil lines and traces of weathering. I get the impression of the first restoration team "cleaning-up" the model more than repainting it. This starts me thinking about less-permanent weathering mediums like pastels.


I don't have the inside scoop on the first restoration, but to my eyes it looked like they'd sprayed the model with a thin coat of gray paint, and some of the graphite in the grid lines leaked through. There was some pretty extreme weathering on the sec hull & nacelles, and I wouldn't be surprised if they'd sanded it off first.



TrekFX said:


> Second is just curiosity. Photos taken at the early Smithsonian displays and just prior to the start of the latest restoration look like the original "12-rows-of-holes" grilles were present on the inboard portside nacelle trench. Yet replacements not quite accurate to the originals were installed. Would you know why?


What I've been told is that the NASM wanted Ed to fabricate grills for the starboard nacelle. Ed had a deadline that couldn't be extended, and he didn't have time to fabricate a duplicate of the original grills, so he removed the original grills, bought a grill at a local hardware store, and installed it on both nacelles so they'd match.

Gary


----------



## RossW

I'm not trying to eliminate the grid lines, but I thought I'd reduce their overall impact by filling them in with Tamiya Surface Primer and then spraying Mr Surfacer 500 (I've used the 1200 before with limited success, cutting with 99% alcohol). I picked up some thinner but the mixture went gooey and didn't spray at all (not to mention gumming up my Iwata in the process).










Any idea on what I'm doing wrong?


----------



## SteveR

Did you try using lacquer thinner?


----------



## RossW

I had tried regular lacquer thinner with the 1200 but found that 99% alcohol worked better (although you had to get the amount of thinner juuuusssstttt right).


----------



## spock62

How about trying Mr Surfacer 500 that comes in a spray can?


----------



## Skyking918

For Mr. Surfacer, the best thinner is Mr. Color _Leveling_ Thinner.


----------



## TrekFX

Gary K said:


> What I've been told is that the NASM wanted Ed to fabricate grills for the starboard nacelle. Ed had a deadline that couldn't be extended, and he didn't have time to fabricate a duplicate of the original grills, so he removed the original grills, bought a grill at a local hardware store, and installed it on both nacelles so they'd match.
> 
> Gary


Thanks for those details!

Are the nacelle pylon grilles the original pattern, or have they been replaced with more readily-available (but different pattern) material to get a match port/starboard as well?


----------



## jheilman

I thought both pylons still have their original grids? I think they were both fitted out originally, unlike the inboard starboard nacelle.


----------



## woof359

do the *long* tabs go into the nacells or secondary hull ?


----------



## Paulbo

woof359 said:


> do the *long* tabs go into the nacells or secondary hull ?


The ends with the curve to match the hull go into the hull, the ends that are straight go into the nacelles.


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## woof359

I well check that out, thanks, man, there a tight fit


----------



## woof359

I should have test fitted the 2 saucer halfs, there was a small gap with glued



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## irishtrek

woof359 said:


> I well check that out, thanks, man, there a tight fit


For a better fit sand the inserts very lightly.


----------



## John P

AAaaaand we find that Tamiya spray laquer doesn't stick to Testors gray primer nearly as well as it sticks to masking tape. :freak:

Luckily I only tried that on one nacelle. But now I have to strip to whole damn nacelle.


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## Prowler901

GAHHHH!!! :freak: That sucks John. But, thanks for sharing that with the rest of us.


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## dreadnaught726

I always use Testors white lacquer primer. It shows flaws clearly and you can use any type of paint over it with good adhesion. Unfortunately, this can only be found in their automotive line of paints.


----------



## BARRYZ28

dreadnaught726 said:


> I always use Testors white lacquer primer. It shows flaws clearly and you can use any type of paint over it with good adhesion. Unfortunately, this can only be found in their automotive line of paints.


Testors white lacquer automotive primer line?


----------



## Trekkriffic

BARRYZ28 said:


> Testors white lacquer automotive primer line?


I looked it up on Google and it does exist. Now that I think about it I think my LHS has some in a display rack for automotive colors. Never bought it before since I don't usually build cars. Wonder why it would work differently than Tamiya lacquer primer.


----------



## dreadnaught726

BARRYZ28 said:


> Testors white lacquer automotive primer line?


Testors Automotive colors (lacquer). Available from Megahobby and most shops


----------



## John P

NOW he tells me! :lol:


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## dreadnaught726

Trekkriffic said:


> I looked it up on Google and it does exist. Now that I think about it I think my LHS has some in a display rack for automotive colors. Never bought it before since I don't usually build cars. Wonder why it would work differently than Tamiya lacquer primer.


Probably works the same, I have used both. Since I use acrylics for the most part I find that it increases adhesion especially when masking. It is also cheaper than Tamiya


----------



## TrekFX

I often wondered about the color cast of the lit windows on the production-era 11-footer. It usually seems a lot more golden than typical yellow incandescent, and different from the red-orange color temp change from simply dropping voltage. Golden, pinkish, peach, I dunno, just not typical incandescent yellow.

As I was admiring how much the kit construction captures many aspects of the 11-footer build, I realized something as I stared at the in-process restoration photos revealing the interior.

It's mostly bare wood.


----------



## Lou Dalmaso

If you want to go all out, you could tint the windows in pinks and purples and greens to simulate the funky room colors they sometimes had.


----------



## Opus Penguin

Just finished Dullcoat on the outside Bussard domes (I used steel wool on the inside) and "Christmas lights". I tried it out and LOVE what I am seeing. It looks like it does in the show. The fan blade speed is also not as bad as I thought so I may or may not mess with the speed. Now I just need the replacement fan blade for the other engine. Still waiting on Round 2 to replace it.

Motors are very loud but I am not sure what can be done on that.


----------



## Hunch

Lou Dalmaso said:


> If you want to go all out, you could tint the windows in pinks and purples and greens to simulate the funky room colors they sometimes had.


Those pastels sure were groovy.:dude:


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## Trekkriffic

Hunch said:


> Those pastels sure were groovy.:dude:


*We reach brother!*


----------



## marc111

Opus Penguin said:


> Just finished Dullcoat on the outside Bussard domes (I used steel wool on the inside) and "Christmas lights". I tried it out and LOVE what I am seeing. It looks like it does in the show. The fan blade speed is also not as bad as I thought so I may or may not mess with the speed.


Opus, What did you mean by "Christmas lights"??? Did you do something different than what's in Round 2's lighting kit? (I haven't received mine yet)

Thanks,
Mark


----------



## Prowler901

The lights in the original 11' model nacelles were actual Christmas tree lights. The R2 kit supplies colored inserts that mimic the shape of those Christmas tree lights. Pretty cool attention to details huh?


----------



## nightspore

*voodoo grey*



Spidey7 said:


> Yeah, but it's listed on their site as "limited availability". I've been told by a few others that they couldn't get it from Testors.


I just ordered it from there web site.


----------



## Opus Penguin

marc111 said:


> Opus, What did you mean by "Christmas lights"??? Did you do something different than what's in Round 2's lighting kit? (I haven't received mine yet)
> 
> Thanks,
> Mark


The "Christmas lights" are the plastic parts in the model,covering the LED's, that simulate the 11' lights that were used which really were Christmas lights. They come with the light kit. Hope that makes sense.


----------



## Hunch

AND the test I did with just some crumpled (very) aluminum foil and a lot of steel wool diffusing on the inside of the outer domes gave a pretty wicked representation of the 11 footer. Keep in mind I had not even added the vinal fan blades yet and it looked great. 
I've read of a couple of people NOT satisfied with the results but I cant imagine how much closer you could get? I will be painting the "disc" that holds the fake bulbs chrome and polishing them 'till my hands hurt then adding some small pieces of silver mylar strategically positioned around the inside (to replace the aluminum foil) and maybe some strips of chrome muffler tape INSIDE the fan blades- right under the black vinal mask ones I got from Lou to see if it bounces the light around a bit more but its realy not necessary. Hope I did not already go over that in this thread but if I did oh well, cant go through every post all the time to check, ya know?

I've also heard a lot of people saying the motors are noisy but after getting some replacements for the bent fan pins (still need more for another kit I bought) that were nice and straight the motors sound is a lot less obvious. The bent pin enables the side of the fan hemisphere to scrape along the "disc" that holds the fake bulbs at a high rate of speed and does sound annoying. I'll admit my hearing is not the greatest so that helps, but its an obvious improvement over what I was hearing, especially when I hooked up one bent and one straight fan part and ran them together. Big difference.


----------



## JGG1701

^^^ Can we get a little video of what you have got accomplished so far by chance?
-Jim


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## Ronster

Has anyone heard of a replacement stand for the Enterprise kit? Due to its size and weight, I was thinking of something a bit more substantial from the one supplied in the kit. It would be nice to have something with room for sound effects and small speaker too.

Still waiting on my lighting set before diving in! Thanks, Ron


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## robiwon

I'll have a nice wooden base built for mine. A guy at work does a lot of wood working in his garage. He's done most of my big bases so far. I will probably keep the aluminum stand off but will have a nice, longer rectangular base, stained and glossed.


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## woof359

*base*



robiwon said:


> I'll have a nice wooden base built for mine. A guy at work does a lot of wood working in his garage. He's done most of my big bases so far. I will probably keep the aluminum stand off but will have a nice, longer rectangular base, stained and glossed.


 sounds good but where are you going to put the base, Im always afraid someone well walk by and snag a engine nacell


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## pagni

I, for one would really like for some enterprising individual to replicate the original AMT stand ! Scaled appropriately of course, the base could accommodate almost anything.


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## irishtrek

For a wooden stand just get a good sized piece of wood from Mihaels or even home depot. And the wood could also be cut to replicate the AMT stand for their old 18" kit, sounds simple enough.


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## RossW

Not sure if Jim Small is a member of HT, but I'd love to hear how he installed magnets to hold the front nacelle assembly in place with magnets. I bought some small rare earth magnets (1/4" dia x 1/10") but I'm worried the magnetic field will interfere with the motors and/or circuit board. Also, I don't want it to be held in place too strongly - did he use 2 magnets or just 1 and a piece of metal?


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## TrekFX

That's kinda funny, because I had the same concern about magnets.

Among other schemes, I've stuck a piece of bent styrene sheet under the assembly as it slips in and it acts like a leaf spring, holding it firmly against the upper flat. I haven't added a "catch" but it would be easy enough with a strip of plastic and groove.

I've thought about using a couple tiny screws through the back plate, providing the domes can be pulled off for later access. I've reworked the fit on mine so they can actually come off without danger of cracking them!


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## woof359

I finished the saucer section, I just didn't like the empty space between the lower clear dome and the upper plastic insert so I took a foggy semi clear marble and epoxied it to the plastic insert , you can tell there's something under the lower dome, you just can quiet make out what it is.


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## starmanmm

Not sure if this was discussed.... but over at SSM, they are selling an Aztek Dummy Mask set and in it they show a pic which looks like you have to fill in the three holes on the bottom of the saucer section for the lights and use their templete to re-drill the holes.

Now, maybe I missed that discussion, so could we re-visit that subject for I don't understand what happened.


----------



## RossW

starmanmm said:


> Not sure if this was discussed.... but over at SSM, they are selling an Aztek Dummy Mask set and in it they show a pic which looks like you have to fill in the three holes on the bottom of the saucer section for the lights and use their templete to re-drill the holes.
> 
> Now, maybe I missed that discussion, so could we re-visit that subject for I don't understand what happened.


That's covered here in this thread, somewhere around pg 11. I've used Lou's templates to mark the new holes but my only concern is that the holes do not appear to be in an arc and the vinyl mask does not make it easy to line them up (it would be better, for example, to have one edge match the arc of the outer grid line to make it easier to nail the exact locations).


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## Captain April

pagni said:


> I, for one would really like for some enterprising individual to replicate the original AMT stand ! Scaled appropriately of course, the base could accommodate almost anything.


Please tell me you're not talking about that craptacular cradle stand.


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## kenlee

Captain April said:


> Please tell me you're not talking about that craptacular cradle stand.


Hopefully it is this one:


----------



## Prowler901

RossW said:


> Not sure if Jim Small is a member of HT, but I'd love to hear how he installed magnets to hold the front nacelle assembly in place with magnets. I bought some small rare earth magnets (1/4" dia x 1/10") but I'm worried the magnetic field will interfere with the motors and/or circuit board. Also, I don't want it to be held in place too strongly - did he use 2 magnets or just 1 and a piece of metal?


I don't think you should worry about the magnets interfering with the electronics. We use a lot of magnets to hold things in RC Airplanes and there is never an issue with the electronics.

I would use a magnet with a metal piece. Two magnets will be hard to take apart.


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## irishtrek

kenlee said:


> Hopefully it is this one:


That is the one he's reffering to.


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## irishtrek

Just a few minutes ago I went to test fit the shuttle bay doors only to discover the hangar deck assembly has to be instaled before the doors can be glued in place!!! I was planning to build the hangar deck seperate from the secondary hull like with the 350 refit, and here I thought R2 had though of every thing.


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## woof359

no, on my kit you had to glue the hanger doors to the bay, otherwise it wont go into the hull


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## woof359

beware, have some rubber bands or clamps on hand, I had to bind it together to close a small gap and the front of the Sen hull, no biggie with them thoiugh


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## Gary K

irishtrek said:


> Just a few minutes ago I went to test fit the shuttle bay doors only to discover the hangar deck assembly has to be instaled before the doors can be glued in place!!! I was planning to build the hangar deck seperate from the secondary hull like with the 350 refit, and here I thought R2 had though of every thing.


Actually, we didn't think modelers would want to display the distorted hangar deck outside the model because it's only 3/4 the scale of the model, and it's been compressed lengthwise to fit into the too-small area behind the nacelle pylons.

Gary


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## Skyking918

I wonder how hard it would be to modify the closed hangar doors with magnets to make them easy to remove to see into the hangar?


----------



## cbear

I have a stupid question about the lighting set. Though I consider my self an experienced kit assembler, I am a complete noob to lighting. How can I test the components before they are installed, especially the bussards?

Chuck


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## starmanmm

I haven't seen the lighting set, but if they are already wired up.... I would say just hook up the correct battery to it.


----------



## pagni

irishtrek said:


> That is the one he's reffering to.


Of course this is the one I'm referring to...my god how could anyone wish for that cradle stand abomination


----------



## irishtrek

Gary K said:


> Actually, we didn't think modelers would want to display the distorted hangar deck outside the model because it's only 3/4 the scale of the model, and it's been compressed lengthwise to fit into the too-small area behind the nacelle pylons.
> 
> Gary


That's ok, I'll take a strip of styrene and flex it into a half loop and glue it into the hull right behinde where the door piece goes.


----------



## Captain April

Y'know, if you're gonna light it, the light kit comes with another hangar deck in clear, so you'd have a spare hangar right off the bat...


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## TrekFX

Gary K said:


> Actually, we didn't think modelers would want to display the distorted hangar deck outside the model because it's only 3/4 the scale of the model, and it's been compressed lengthwise to fit into the too-small area behind the nacelle pylons.
> 
> Gary


Never wash it in hot water and never dry it on the hangar...

Never mind.


----------



## irishtrek

Captain April said:


> Y'know, if you're gonna light it, the light kit comes with another hangar deck in clear, so you'd have a spare hangar right off the bat...


At a 150.00 bucks for a lighting kit, are you nuts??????? That is waayyyy too expensive for me seeing as I've never lit a model.


----------



## Skyking918

*Lighting the TOS 1/350 Enterprise*



irishtrek said:


> At a 150.00 bucks for a lighting kit, are you nuts??????? That is waayyyy too expensive for me seeing as I've never lit a model.


That kit may be expensive (you can find it for less at certain e-tailers), but it is plug-and-play so saves you the hassle of having to engineer your own. I think it's probably worth the money.


----------



## NathanJ72

Skyking918 said:


> That kit may be expensive (you can find it for less at certain e-tailers), but it is plug-and-play so saves you the hassle of having to engineer your own. I think it's probably worth the money.


I have had to ditch the quick connects with the light tape. They constantly loose connection. New guy/lurker here by the way.


----------



## irishtrek

New guy, huh?? Well then, Welcom, Welcome, Welcome to the wierd boards!!!!!!!!:wave::tongue::wave::tongue:


----------



## woof359

*leg work*

when I saw the electronics at the LHS I about fell over, then after I thought how much it wood cost me to get all the stuff to make it, not to mention the hassle of finding it all. putting it together and such. maybe its not that big a deal. after all, the kit aint cheep, but man is it nice :thumbsup:


----------



## mach7

I just got the lighting combo pack for Christmas, yup it's pricy but I don't think you could do it yourself for much less. 

I have only lit a few kits over the years, but the quality/detail of this kit just screams "LIGHT ME"

So I will.


----------



## irishtrek

every time I try to take a look at the online pdf instrucuions after a few seconds all I get is a little window that says the free pdf thing is not responding. So has any one else had the same problem???


----------



## Steve Mavronis

irishtrek said:


> every time I try to take a look at the online pdf instrucuions after a few seconds all I get is a little window that says the free pdf thing is not responding.


Try downloading/installing the newest free Adobe Acrobat PDF Reader?
http://www.adobe.com/go/EN_US-H-GET-READER

Note: Watch in case the installer tried to hit you with any 'extra' software via pre-selected checkboxes. Uncheck them if you see one. Some could interfere with your already installed Antivirus software.


----------



## Opus Penguin

I have a question some of you experts out there can help me with. I love the Bussard lighting, but I think the steady light are actually too bright. After dullcoating the outside dome, the amber (the plastic color I used) seems bright that it almost overshadows the smaller blinking lights. Any suggestions on how I can dull the brightness of the steady lights so the smaller ones stand out a little more?


----------



## TrekFX

The easiest way I can imagine is to stick a piece of foil in the "chimney" and poke a hole to create an iris-like aperture. Experiment with the hole size to get the brightness you prefer.

Hmmm easier and more easy to duplicate would be to stick a little disk of ND (neutral-density) gel in the chimneys. 

I figured you're more likely to have foil than a full selection of ND gels handy... but if you've got gels...:wave:


----------



## Opus Penguin

I was thinking of cotton or some other material in the chimneys to help dull the light. Also thought of some type of translucent paint to help coat the amber plastic. I do have a yellow translucent paint but not sure it will help.


----------



## SteveR

Opus Penguin said:


> Also thought of some type of translucent paint to help coat the amber plastic.


Tamiya smoke?


----------



## marc111

To dim the steady lights why not just up the resistance in series with the LED's. This will lower their individual currents and dim the LED changing the proportional light between the steady and blinking LED's

A thought,
Mark


----------



## irishtrek

Steve Mavronis said:


> Try downloading/installing the newest free Adobe Acrobat PDF Reader?
> http://www.adobe.com/go/EN_US-H-GET-READER
> 
> Note: Watch in case the installer tried to hit you with any 'extra' software via pre-selected checkboxes. Uncheck them if you see one. Some could interfere with your already installed Antivirus software.


It works just fine for the other PDF downloads so why should I need to download a new version???


----------



## Opus Penguin

SteveR said:


> Tamiya smoke?


I may try this if other means fail. I also got some foil tape to try and mimic the mirror effect inside and see if that makes any difference.


----------



## woof359

*forward domes*

I should have painted the 3 little nub's on the domes before frosting them, peeling the masks off scratches the dull coat.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us


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## [EAGLE]

irishtrek said:


> At a 150.00 bucks for a lighting kit, are you nuts??????? That is waayyyy too expensive for me seeing as I've never lit a model.


ROFL. Thats just too funny. If you find a way to do it cheaper, with no soldering and an accurate look, please let us know!!:freak:


----------



## ClubTepes

irishtrek said:


> Just a few minutes ago I went to test fit the shuttle bay doors only to discover the hangar deck assembly has to be instaled before the doors can be glued in place!!! I was planning to build the hangar deck seperate from the secondary hull like with the 350 refit, and here I thought R2 had though of every thing.


Actually, the shape of the ship is the issue, not that we didn't think of everything.

There is no 'hood' over the doors on the refit like there is on the TOS.


----------



## ClubTepes

NathanJ72 said:


> I have had to ditch the quick connects with the light tape. They constantly loose connection. New guy/lurker here by the way.


I'm wondering if your getting the connections on all the way. Or compressing them totally.

I actually have the opposite problem, the adhesive on the back of the ribbon holds the connection pretty securely.

If your still having issues, a trick we use with the ribbon in 'rough' situations at work, is to glob a little 'hot glue' over the connection and the ribbon.

The ribbon and connectors are pretty solid.
We rarely have trouble with them.


----------



## ClubTepes

Opus Penguin said:


> I have a question some of you experts out there can help me with. I love the Bussard lighting, but I think the steady light are actually too bright. After dullcoating the outside dome, the amber (the plastic color I used) seems bright that it almost overshadows the smaller blinking lights. Any suggestions on how I can dull the brightness of the steady lights so the smaller ones stand out a little more?


Did you use steel wool and dull-coat on the 'fake bulbs'.

This will spread the light out more.


----------



## Opus Penguin

ClubTepes said:


> Did you use steel wool and dull-coat on the 'fake bulbs'.
> 
> This will spread the light out more.


Yep, did both. They still seem a little too bright. I will try some of the suggestions here and see what worrks.


----------



## irishtrek

[EAGLE] said:


> ROFL. Thats just too funny. If you find a way to do it cheaper, with no soldering and an accurate look, please let us know!!:freak:


How about some glow in the dark paint or even some neon colors???:wave:


----------



## irishtrek

ClubTepes said:


> Actually, the shape of the ship is the issue, not that we didn't think of everything.
> 
> There is no 'hood' over the doors on the refit like there is on the TOS.


Yeah, I was thinking the same when I realized that TOS E has no gaps between the sides of the hull and the shuttle bay doors. and besides I didn't say anything about a hood.


----------



## starmanmm

any pics of this issue?


----------



## Neo-uk

*Enough already*

After reading quite a few posts on this kit I noticed that there are quite a few people with "niggles" and "why did they " or "why didn't they", I Think that those who have this kit should thank Polar for doing it and doing it as well as they have.They have tried to cover near enough every aspect of the gray lady in all the incarnations seen as accurately as possible for a good price, and yet still people moan. You'll never get a model released that's everything to everyone just like you cant please all the people all the time. A lot of these problems aren't even major ones. You might have to trim, carve, fill and re-scribe here and there but that's modelling, use your modelling skills if it get a bit much take up trainspotting.I expect I'm going to get loads of flak for this post but 

I'd just like to say before I go into hiding;
Thank you all at Polar for bringing this to us :thumbsup:


----------



## wjplenge

I agree with you Neo-uk, the kit is a beauty and the minor issues are just basic modeling issues. However (you knew there'd be a butt too) to some extent so are the niggles, when producing something to appeal to a large group you can't match the ideals of everyone of them and those people are entitled to build their model their way. That is a big part of why the hobby exists, otherwise instead of kits we'd be buying statues. It in no way distracts from Polar Lights accomplishment producing such a beautiful kit especially with a subject that has been the passion/obsession of sooooo many fans for so many decades. Even after production they've done an admirable job of replacing parts that were damaged while the production teams learned how to cast some parts properly that apparently were problematic, most notably #140.


----------



## mach7

Neo-uk said:


> After reading quite a few posts on this kit I noticed that there are quite a few people with "niggles" and "why did they " or "why didn't they", I Think that those who have this kit should thank Polar for doing it and doing it as well as they have.They have tried to cover near enough every aspect of the gray lady in all the incarnations seen as accurately as possible for a good price, and yet still people moan. You'll never get a model released that's everything to everyone just like you cant please all the people all the time. A lot of these problems aren't even major ones. You might have to trim, carve, fill and re-scribe here and there but that's modelling, use your modelling skills if it get a bit much take up trainspotting.I expect I'm going to get loads of flak for this post but
> 
> I'd just like to say before I go into hiding;
> Thank you all at Polar for bringing this to us :thumbsup:


I agree, There is a thread for it:

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=379476


----------



## NathanJ72

ClubTepes said:


> I'm wondering if your getting the connections on all the way. Or compressing them totally.
> 
> I actually have the opposite problem, the adhesive on the back of the ribbon holds the connection pretty securely.
> 
> If your still having issues, a trick we use with the ribbon in 'rough' situations at work, is to glob a little 'hot glue' over the connection and the ribbon.
> 
> The ribbon and connectors are pretty solid.
> We rarely have trouble with them.


I played with it forever. It would come on, try t test fit everything and some would go off. I ditched the connectors and soldered them. I've done electrical work for years and it's like "backstabbing" a receptacle. Eventually the wire will wiggle loose and if your lucky not cause a fire (in that receptacle). When compression only is holding them on to me that's not good.


----------



## woof359

*dvd cases*

I found DVD cases to be just about right to keep it level


Uploaded with ImageShack.us


----------



## Captain April

^ Now _that's_ inspired.


----------



## Trek Ace

irishtrek said:


> Yeah, I was thinking the same when I realized that TOS E has no gaps between the sides of the hull and the shuttle bay doors. and besides I didn't say anything about a hood.


It's really more of a shroud than a hood.


----------



## Steve Mavronis

irishtrek said:


> ...I went to test fit the shuttle bay doors only to discover the hangar deck assembly has to be instaled before the doors can be glued in place!!! I was planning to build the hangar deck seperate from the secondary hull...


I don't have the kit yet but couldn't you just make a sheet plastic half circle (or half ring) bulkhead and floor deck substitute for the closed shuttle bay doors to be glued or snapped into?


----------



## jaws62666

woof359 said:


> I found DVD cases to be just about right to keep it level
> 
> 
> Uploaded with ImageShack.us


Is that the raw plastic, or have you painted already?


----------



## irishtrek

Steve Mavronis said:


> I don't have the kit yet but couldn't you just make a sheet plastic half circle (or half ring) bulkhead and floor deck substitute for the closed shuttle bay doors to be glued or snapped into?


Since I have not got around to doing anything with it just yet I too was thinking of that myself.


----------



## actias

Here's a 3mm WATER CLEAR red blinking led pointed sideways over broken glass x-mas ornament shards. The picture doesnt do the effect justice. I shaved all the posts on the bussard disc will line it with the shards and LED's some will blink and some will be steady on.


----------



## woof359

*slant*

are the engines suppose to slant down just a bit at the rear ?


----------



## Russell morash

I found cutting the closed doors and fitting the piece into the open clamshell gives you option of displaying the bay then closing it .


----------



## cbear

Good idea!


----------



## woof359

*paint*



jaws62666 said:


> Is that the raw plastic, or have you painted already?


painted with tamiya AS-2, Japanese navy gray


----------



## woof359

Uploaded with ImageShack.us


----------



## Gregatron

Nice! And what's the story on that 1/1000 kit? Any photos? It also looks nice!


----------



## woof359

*pl 1000 kit*

built the pilot kit when it first came out, up close its awful, got 2 more in the box, I got plenty of paint left over now, so Im gonna redo it as the production ship, I noticed the decals were glazing bad after 5 years >? has it been longer ?:hat:


----------



## Carson Dyle

If a smooth, blemish-free finish matters to you I'd seriously recommend investing in a set of micro-mesh polishing abrasives. 

My biggest gripe with a lot of the Trek models I see is sloppy finishing work. This problem is compounded where decals are concerned. Polishing abrasives are an effective way to correct any number of commonly found surface glitches, and they're especially handy when it comes to effectively feathering and blending surface weathering.


----------



## charonjr

Excellent advice!


----------



## Russell morash

I used orange @ red markers on the inner fan dome and black on the blades it made for a nice effect 
With the outer dome frosted stained glass effect


----------



## Lou Dalmaso

*found a great paint color!*

I don't know if any of you have discovered this, but i thought i'd throw it out there.

I found this rattle can at Lowe's home improvement.
It's from the Valspar brand and the paint color is called "Gloss Smoke Infusion"

here is a picture against the bare plastic. You can see the original plastic color where the tape was. i think it is a very close match. The gloss, i don't care for, but that's easily dealt with.

I haven't tried it over primer, but at only 6 bucks a can, I thought it was worth mentioning.

cheers :wave:


----------



## Opus Penguin

Lou Dalmaso said:


> I don't know if any of you have discovered this, but i thought i'd throw it out there.
> 
> I found this rattle can at Lowe's home improvement.
> It's from the Valspar brand and the paint color is called "Gloss Smoke Infusion"
> 
> here is a picture against the bare plastic. You can see the original plastic color where the tape was. i think it is a very close match. The gloss, i don't care for, but that's easily dealt with.
> 
> I haven't tried it over primer, but at only 6 bucks a can, I thought it was worth mentioning.
> 
> cheers :wave:


Does this match the model color? I have been having a heck of a time finding the Shady Cove color.


----------



## Lou Dalmaso

take a look at the picture. if anything, it's a touch whiter than the color of the styrene. so if you like the color of the plastic in the kit, you should like this as well


----------



## SteveR

"Concrete" sounds more macho than "gloss smoke infusion." 

Pretty darn close, Lou. :thumbsup:


----------



## idman

I'm gonna stick with steve niell's color suggestions 2 part flat white 1 part light light ghost gray my local hobbytown only carries one bottle of xf12 and has been waiting for 4 months to get more...


----------



## asalaw

NathanJ72 said:


> I have had to ditch the quick connects with the light tape. They constantly loose connection. New guy/lurker here by the way.


I've had the same issue, but soldering them together goes very fast and easy. If you clip off the connectors close enough to preserve the little bits of solder that are already on those wires, you don't even need to use your own solder.


----------



## NathanJ72

asalaw said:


> I've had the same issue, but soldering them together goes very fast and easy. If you clip off the connectors close enough to preserve the little bits of solder that are already on those wires, you don't even need to use your own solder.


I pulled the tabs out of the connectors and clamped them on with a pair of needle nose then soldered them


----------



## jaws62666

NathanJ72 said:


> I pulled the tabs out of the connectors and clamped them on with a pair of needle nose then soldered them


I just hooked up the lights real quick to see how everything looked. I didn't have the connector problems at all. Check out my post

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?p=4407718#post4407718


----------



## woof359

*little rectangles*

I found out there is a differance for forward and back on the little warp engine rec's on the back of the nacells, big pins and smaller pins.


part #5 for the saucer hull, is thta suppose to be flush with the impulse engines ?


----------



## NathanJ72

jaws62666 said:


> I just hooked up the lights real quick to see how everything looked. I didn't have the connector problems at all. Check out my post
> 
> 
> I did all that. Eventually I even got to the point where I cleaned the contacts and they just couldn't hold a connection. No problems at all with the solder.


----------



## Gary7

Hi Guys. I'm new here. I picked up the 1:350 PL TOS a few weeks ago. Looks like there is a lot of info to absorb. I have built various models Of the Fair Lady Enterprise since the first 60's AMT release. The one I have been happiest with is the PL 1:1000 version. I plan to make mine as close to screen correct as I can. Here's to Roddenberry's vision ans LL&P.


----------



## Gary7

Sorry, Double posted.


----------



## woof359

*phaser banks*

Sooooooooooooooo, just where are the saucer located phaser banks :hat:


----------



## Captain April

Wherever you want them to be.


----------



## Volvox

*Hello!*

Just joined as I'm making the TOS with light kit. Hello fellow model builders!

I have both some initial comments as I'm about half way through the build and some questions!


*Questions:*

*Glue brands?*
ClubTepes above has a great starting thread, on #4 above, does anyone have a specific name / brand of glue one should use to best join the major parts together? (engines, saucer to lower deck, etc.) and a suggestion of where to get such a glue? I've only super glue and the basic testors model glue.

*Photo-etch kit:*
The Photo-Etch kit, is cool, but I've never done any photo-etch stuff before. Most of the kit is gold, do people paint these in general or just leave them gold? I could see where gold is super fancy, but doesn't match the look of the studio model. What do most do with the photo-etch kits?

*Are there Voltage schematics of lighting kit available anywhere?*
Most important to me as I burnt out an LED already! (NoOb mistake!) 
Is there any online skimatics that say what the light voltages are for the kit? I'd like to get a replacement bulb at say radio shack but don't know what the volts/amps for the paticular LED I killed are.


*Observations so far i've made:*
Like some other posters here, I was luky to find a paint that matches the production plastic almost perfictitly. This was nice, as I wanted to not paint the entire exterior heavily. 

*Hull Color:*
The hull color can be found at Lowes. Valspar spray paint # 85039 '_Gloss Smoke Infusion_'. the only problem is its gloss but I'm going to clear coat the thing with a Matt/satin coat at the very end so this is almost perfect. highly suggest.

*Light Strips to connectors not sticking?:*
To the one poster above, with the lights connecting to the strips- I realized after a few attempts to attach the strips they wouldnt stick but did 'connect'. (stayed in place but did not light) I was keeping the black towards the back but didn't realize it can bend both ways. If you look at the connectors, the white part is thick on one side and thin on the other. You want the front to always be the thick side then they will stay.

*Light Bleeding though plastic:*
Since I have not been painting the outside heavily, I have had to prime the inner surfaces with white to stop light bleeding though many pieces. This is basic I guess for light kits but new to me as this is my first kit. I've had plenty of issues with light bleeding. I actually painted the bussard thingys that hold the plastic 'chirstmas lights' with flat black which was a mistake as it really kills the light.

*Got an early build of the deluxe kit does have some issues:*
I luckily and unluckily got build #2 of 1701 from the deluxe kit limited edition. This is cool to have the certificate of authenticity read #2 but is a bummer as my kit does have quite a few errors, noticeable sink holes in the secondary hull, the bussard clear spinney thingies are both wobbly when attached and the two halves of my secondary hull are slightly warped and really don't want to fit together. (thus the glue question above!  )

*The bussard motors are indeed loud! *
I find the engine sound to be too distracting. Its louder then my Xbox360 even! So I think I'm going to omit the motors, and just leave the spinney things stationary. Anyone think this is a bad idea? IMO, id rather have it silent and on more than noisy and off! I was even thinking if I replaced the motors with a LED behind the spinney things instead, that might even light them up more and look cool. And my bussard lights are two dim anyway.


----------



## Volvox

Hello!
Just joined as I'm making the TOS with light kit. Hello fellow model builders!

I have both some initial comments as I'm about half way through the build and some questions!


*Questions:

Glue brands?*
ClubTepes above has a great starting thread, on #4 above, does anyone have a specific name / brand of glue one should use to best join the major parts together? (engines, saucer to lower deck, etc.) and a suggestion of where to get such a glue? I've only super glue and the basic testors model glue.

*Photo-etch kit:*
The Photo-Etch kit, is cool, but I've never done any photo-etch stuff before. Most of the kit is gold, do people paint these in general or just leave them gold? I could see where gold is super fancy, but doesn't match the look of the studio model. What do most do with the photo-etch kits?

*Are there Voltage schematics of lighting kit available anywhere?*
Most important to me as I burnt out an LED already! (NoOb mistake!) 
Is there any online skimatics that say what the light voltages are for the kit? I'd like to get a replacement bulb at say radio shack but don't know what the volts/amps for the paticular LED I killed are.


*Observations so far i've made:*
Like some other posters here, I was luky to find a paint that matches the production plastic almost perfictitly. This was nice, as I wanted to not paint the entire exterior heavily. 

*Hull Color:*
The hull color can be found at Lowes. Valspar spray paint # 85039 'Gloss Smoke Infusion'. the only problem is its gloss but I'm going to clear coat the thing with a Matt/satin coat at the very end so this is almost perfect. highly suggest.

*Light Strips to connectors not sticking?:*
To the one poster above, with the lights connecting to the strips- I realized after a few attempts to attach the strips they wouldnt stick but did 'connect'. (stayed in place but did not light) I was keeping the black towards the back but didn't realize it can bend both ways. If you look at the connectors, the white part is thick on one side and thin on the other. You want the front to always be the thick side then they will stay.

*Light Bleeding though plastic:*
Since I have not been painting the outside heavily, I have had to prime the inner surfaces with white to stop light bleeding though many pieces. This is basic I guess for light kits but new to me as this is my first kit. I've had plenty of issues with light bleeding. I actually painted the bussard thingys that hold the plastic 'chirstmas lights' with flat black which was a mistake as it really kills the light.

*Got an early build of the deluxe kit does have some issues:*
I luckily and unluckily got build #2 of 1701 from the deluxe kit limited edition. This is cool to have the certificate of authenticity read #2 but is a bummer as my kit does have quite a few errors, noticeable sink holes in the secondary hull, the bussard clear spinney thingies are both wobbly when attached and the two halves of my secondary hull are slightly warped and really don't want to fit together. (thus the glue question above!  )

*The bussard motors are indeed loud! *
I find the engine sound to be too distracting. Its louder then my Xbox360 even! So I think I'm going to omit the motors, and just leave the spinney things stationary. Anyone think this is a bad idea? IMO, id rather have it silent and on more than noisy and off! I was even thinking if I replaced the motors with a LED behind the spinney things instead, that might even light them up more and look cool. And my bussard lights are two dim anyway.


----------



## RossW

Weld-On or Tennax 7 are great liquid cements. I'm using a fresh tube of Testors cement for some of the structural stuff (and where I need more time to get them parts together and under their clamps/weight).
Photo-etch is made with gold-ish metal but it is meant to be painted.
I haven't yet seen a schematic for the circuit, but I think the supply voltage is 12V which I believe is used directly for the strips. For the other lights (the blinking running lights, for example) there could be a small voltage regulator on the board or they're actually connected in series (12V could power four 3V LEDs). Which light did you burn out?

For light blocking, I'd paint the inside first with flat black and then with flat white. Same for part #42 (Christmas tree light holder). Some people are painting it with a highly reflective material (I painted mine with Alclad Chrome and then glued small shards of broken craft mirror in place, but so far the mirrors aren't helping with the plastic 'bulbs'. I'm thinking of tossing those and moving my LEDs right up to the top of #42.


----------



## Rahn

RossW said:


> Some people are painting it with a highly reflective material (I painted mine with Alclad Chrome and then glued small shards of broken craft mirror in place, but so far the mirrors aren't helping with the plastic 'bulbs'. I'm thinking of tossing those and moving my LEDs right up to the top of #42.


I think the mirrors don't help much because the LEDs are primarily shining forward through narrow 'tubes'. The original FX Christmas tree lights were suspended in _front_ of the mirrors, radiating light that could be reflected.

Rather than moving the LEDs, perhaps cut off the 'tubes' and paint the LEDs with colored clears.


----------



## TrekFX

RossW said:


> For light blocking, I'd paint the inside first with flat black and then with flat white. Same for part #42 (Christmas tree light holder). Some people are painting it with a highly reflective material (I painted mine with Alclad Chrome and then glued small shards of broken craft mirror in place, but so far the mirrors aren't helping with the plastic 'bulbs'. I'm thinking of tossing those and moving my LEDs right up to the top of #42.


I concur with moving the LEDs. The kit configuration is well-engineered and is pretty straightforward to assemble for a good result.

There's always some room for refinement! The original miniature's light bulbs placed the filaments well inside the dome and made distinct point-source kicks, which can be seen in both head-on and side views. Sometimes I think I can just make out the ghostly outlines of the bulbs and sockets themselves which adds a cool "what is that?" element to the effect. Plus the mirror bits, nails and drive spindle... lots of little things layered into that clever gizmo. Still cool after all these years, and Round 2 did a great job of capturing the essence of it and making it kit-able.


----------



## taipan

I actually went with painting the xmas light holder chrome at first, combined with the amber "bulbs" that come with the light kit. Found that I really didn't like the overall effect as it wasn't as bright as I wanted....so I took some fiber optic, ran it from the top of the LED to the interior of a clear "bulb" (which I carefully drilled out and dipped in clear amber) and while it is a cool effect I kinda burred the inside where I drilled out the bulb. Will get back to all when i figure out how to polish the interior of the bulb.


----------



## SteveR

taipan said:


> Will get back to all when i figure out how to polish the interior of the bulb.


Dip it in Future?


----------



## taipan

double post


----------



## taipan

LOL, actually dipped the outside but not the inside, will try that when I get home tonight
thanks :thumbsup:

(slaps forehead while saying "doh!")


----------



## TrekFX

taipan said:


> I actually went with painting the xmas light holder chrome at first, combined with the amber "bulbs" that come with the light kit. Found that I really didn't like the overall effect as it wasn't as bright as I wanted....so I took some fiber optic, ran it from the top of the LED to the interior of a clear "bulb" (which I carefully drilled out and dipped in clear amber) and while it is a cool effect I kinda burred the inside where I drilled out the bulb. Will get back to all when i figure out how to polish the interior of the bulb.


That's cool! I tried that too! I wasn't sure if I liked it though.

Have you tried a little dab of clear epoxy? If you can get a small applicator like a syringe, you can fill the hole, then insert the fiber and dab away the displaced extra. It should optically couple everything together inside if you can keep air bubbles out.


----------



## taipan

while i like the idea of the effect it actually doesn't look like a lit bulb
maybe i will run the led out to the end or cut down the stalk on the kit part


----------



## SteveR

Did you "mushroom" the head of the fibre optic?


----------



## Trekkriffic

If one were to mount the LEDs to the tips of the clear stalks do they present any clearance issues with the inner dome spinning? Or do you just need to do a lot of test fitting with the heights of the "stalks" and the size of the LED. Would 3mm LEDs be too big?


----------



## Trekkriffic

double post!


----------



## RossW

Trekkriffic said:


> If one were to mount the LEDs to the tips of the clear stalks do they present any clearance issues with the inner dome spinning? Or do you just need to do a lot of test fitting with the heights of the "stalks" and the size of the LED. Would 3mm LEDs be too big?


I got 2mm LEDs of various colours for the round blinky ones, and will use 3mm amber LEDs for the C7 bulbs, angling them sideways to allow clearance.


----------



## TrekFX

How 'bout the insane approach? I have no idea who would do this...


----------



## asalaw

TrekFX said:


> How 'bout the insane approach? I have no idea who would do this...


Hmmm.... cool idea!


----------



## Trekkriffic

TrekFX said:


> How 'bout the insane approach? I have no idea who would do this...


Looks like the work of... 

The Rhinestone Cowboy!


----------



## Trekkriffic

RossW said:


> I got 2mm LEDs of various colours for the round blinky ones, and will use 3mm amber LEDs for the C7 bulbs, angling them sideways to allow clearance.


Sounds like a plan Sam.


----------



## mach7

TrekFX said:


> How 'bout the insane approach? I have no idea who would do this...


I posted this idea way back, it's what I'm going to do.


----------



## Gregatron

I ordered...*sigh*...a second R2 PE kit, so as to acquire the small bits of pylon grill that go behind the dorsal windows.

Yes, that might be a bit obessive, I admit.


But, hey, at least I'll have extra PE, in case there are any problems.


----------



## Opus Penguin

Gregatron said:


> I ordered...*sigh*...a second R2 PE kit, so as to acquire the small bits of pylon grill that go behind the dorsal windows.
> 
> Yes, that might be a bit obessive, I admit.
> 
> 
> But, hey, at least I'll have extra PE, in case there are any problems.


I have been trying to figure out what to use behind that window myself so I guess I am just as obsessive. I also plan to get transparent orange (or mix transparent red and yellow) to color the one window in the dorsal as well.


----------



## TrekFX

Depending on how clearly the kit plastic actually reveals fine interior detail, would a transparent film with opaque pattern work? Could save you a couple pennies.


----------



## Skyking918

*Dorsal windows*



Gregatron said:


> the small bits of pylon grill that go behind the dorsal windows.


Huh? First time I've heard of this; ditto for the orange window. Pix?


----------



## Opus Penguin

I believe Gary talks about this in one of the Sci-Fi Modeler magazines. There is wire mesh behind one window and another is colored orange. IIRC the wire mesh was the same material used on the impulse engines. I can scan a picture showing this, but I am not sure if that is allowed. Perhaps Gary can describe in more detail?

Here: http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=380407&page=2

Look at post #23, second and third picture down. You can see the orange window clearly (back of dorsal, top left lighted window is orange). I believe it is the window second from the right of the top 5 rectangular windows That has the wire mesh (which is why it isn't as bright).


----------



## Trekkriffic

Opus Penguin said:


> Here:
> http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=380407&page=2
> 
> Look at post #23, second and third picture down. You can see the orange window clearly (back of dorsal, top left lighted window is orange). I believe it is the window second from the right of the top 5 rectangular windows That has the wire mesh (which is why it isn't as bright).


Funny. In picture #5 the orange window appears to be blacked out. Along with a few others close to the spine.


----------



## Skyking918

> Look at post #23, second and third picture down. You can see the orange window clearly (back of dorsal, top left lighted window is orange).


Thanks for pointing that out; I had never noticed it. But I wonder if that might be a reflection of the lighted starboard bussard. That would explain why it sometimes appears to be unlit.


----------



## Opus Penguin

Skyking918 said:


> Thanks for pointing that out; I had never noticed it. But I wonder if that might be a reflection of the lighted starboard bussard. That would explain why it sometimes appears to be unlit.


I will go ahead and post this scan from Volume 27 of the Sci-Fi Modeler magazine that had the continuing article about the 1/350 E. If I am breaking any rule on posting this, hopefully Gary or the moderator will let me know and I will remove it. However, this is where my source comes from. Also from this I realized there are two windows with the metal screen behind them.


----------



## mbss1979

*Original Plastic color*

First off, just wanted to say I'm very impressed with the Original Enterprise! Very nice kit! Took a long time to save up for this kit. Not lighting mine, just using micro kristal klear for the windows, didn't like how the kit windows fit. Found adding a drop of MM gloss white Acryl to the kristal klear gives a nice impression of lit windows. Then just using plain klear for the unlit windows. 

Also, love the color of this ship, and don't want to ruin a perfect canvas. I'll leave the model in the raw plastic color. Will sand and fill the seams with super glue, zip kick them, and sand smooth, starting with 400 grit, working up to 2000 grit all over to smooth everything out. Then I'll use the #1 needle with my double action paache airbrush and airbrush a light coat of the color they recommend over the seams. Once decals are on, flat coat, weather with pastels, flat coat again, this blends out all imperfections!


----------



## woof359

*nav lights*

must have filed my Nav lights for the back of the secondary hull by mistake. went to Michea'ls and picked up some green and red beads, should look better any way, just have to see if I need to lay down the twin red stripes first


----------



## robn1

mbss1979 said:


> ...I'll leave the model in the raw plastic color. Will sand and fill the seams with super glue...


You may want to try using stretched sprue from the kit and glue to fill the seems. This would match the color. If you melt the sprue with glue, press it into the seem, and sand it down when dry the seems should be nearly invisible.


----------



## Proper2

Does anybody know how to go about commissioning an experienced (and talented) modeler to do a build of this—or any other ship, like the 1:350 Botany Bay maybe? Is there a list of people, maybe? Thanks, in advance.


----------



## Trek Ace

You could try this local guy:

http://www.sneillfx.com/index2.php

http://steveneill.wordpress.com/


----------



## Proper2

Trek Ace said:


> You could try this local guy:
> 
> http://www.sneillfx.com/index2.php
> 
> http://steveneill.wordpress.com/


Thank you! I've seen Steve's builds before. He's amazing! Talk about talented! Will contact him but he may be way out of my budget-league. Thanks again!


----------



## mbss1979

I worked for Mike Evans at Lunar Models for 14 years before he sold his business. I would be interested in the Botany Bay. You can contact me at [email protected].


----------



## Opus Penguin

Can anyone tell me where specifically the Canadian Voodoo Grey is required on the intercooler accents? At the risk of sounding like a Star Trek noob, I believe the parts on the back of the nacelle that stand up in "V" fashion are the intercoolers. So what part of it is hull color and what part Voodoo Grey?


----------



## John P

The voodoo gray was new information to me too!

I think it's just the "elbow" part of the intercoolers, the rest of it is hull color.

It points to it on the box paint instructions.


----------



## Gary K

Opus Penguin said:


> Can anyone tell me where specifically the Canadian Voodoo Grey is required on the intercooler accents? At the risk of sounding like a Star Trek noob, I believe the parts on the back of the nacelle that stand up in "V" fashion are the intercoolers. So what part of it is hull color and what part Voodoo Grey?


The non-ribbed ends of the intercooler tubes are Voodoo Gray. The ribbed center portions, the little tabs at the fronts of the intercoolers, and the filler for the loops are hull color. The control reactors, located in the inboard nacelle trenches, have a similar color scheme, except the wedge-shaped part in front are hull color.

Gary


----------



## Opus Penguin

Thanks Gary, this helps a lot!


----------



## Trekkriffic

I never would have guessed there were two colors used on the intercoolers and reactor control loops. Fascinating!


----------



## Opus Penguin

Trekkriffic said:


> I never would have guessed there were two colors used on the intercoolers and reactor control loops. Fascinating!


Neither did I. However, looking at the screen caps (posted elsewhere on this forum) I can now see the subtle difference.


----------



## Gary K

Trekkriffic said:


> I never would have guessed there were two colors used on the intercoolers and reactor control loops. Fascinating!


I first noticed the 2-tone colors years ago in some grainy b&w shots, but I didn't confirm them (plus the light gray Pilot version impulse deck) until relatively recently. Once you know that the colors are there, they're really obvious. The most surprising part is that more people didn't realize this sooner. I go into the oddball color scheme in more detail in Part 4 of my TOS E article in SF&FM, which will be published in a few months. A must-have magazine (hint, hint)! 

Gary


----------



## Opus Penguin

Oh I plan to get it! Already have part 3 on pre-order. I will probably wait on painting any of the details until I get #4 if you're going to have tips in there.


----------



## Captain April

I'm just waiting for that omnibus collection.

It's a stretch figuring out how to afford the model, never mind how to afford four magazines that'll wind up costing as much as the model itself.


----------



## Steve H

I will probably buy the collected edition (if they do one) in hopes of added content, but I'm already in for the first two (from Japan I got them. owwwww), I might as well try and keep going at this point. 

I wanted to say, very well done, Gary. Very well done. Did you do similar articles for the two Seaviews?


----------



## Gary K

Steve H said:


> I wanted to say, very well done, Gary. Very well done. Did you do similar articles for the two Seaviews?


I came in on the tail end of the 4-window Seaview project so there wasn't much to write about. I probably could have written a decent story about the 1/32 Flying Sub model, but the thought of writing for SF&FM never crossed my mind. My first article was a 3-parter on the Moebius Jupiter 2, and the 2nd article was on the 8-window Seaview. I must have been feeling especially verbose, since my 2-part article on the TOS Enterprise somehow doubled in size. If I have the energy, somewhere down the line I could chronicle the epic tale of the development of the LIS Robot model and the Galileo shuttlecraft - maybe the Mk 1 Viper from BSG, too.

Gary


----------



## Prologic9

Gary K said:


> The non-ribbed ends of the intercooler tubes are Voodoo Gray. The ribbed center portions, the little tabs at the fronts of the intercoolers, and the filler for the loops are hull color. The control reactors, located in the inboard nacelle trenches, have a similar color scheme, except the wedge-shaped part in front are hull color.
> 
> Gary


Once you described it I could kind of make it out on the box art, but I missed it before. 

I think this is the idea;


----------



## Gary K

Prologic9 said:


> Once you described it I could kind of make it out on the box art, but I missed it before.
> 
> I think this is the idea;


You got it - including the correct color scheme for the nacelle trench! On the box art Jamie Hood had to Photoshop the light-colored ends onto the intercoolers in Petri Blomqvist's color renderings since Petri hadn't yet had time to correct the newly-discovered color scheme on his Lightwave model.

FYI, if you are building a model of the Rollout version of the 11-footer, remove the ribs & the small tab from each intercooler and paint the entire thing light gray.

Gary


----------



## Opus Penguin

Fantastic! I was hoping for a picture to clarify better.


----------



## Gregatron

Gary K said:


> You got it - including the correct color scheme for the nacelle trench!



Wait...what _wouldn't_ be correct about the trench? Hasn't it usually been presumed to be the darker accent gray color?


----------



## Gary K

Gregatron said:


> Wait...what _wouldn't_ be correct about the trench? Hasn't it usually been presumed to be the darker accent gray color?


People used to assume that the entire trench was darker gray, while we now know that the slanted walls of the trench are hull-colored.

Gary


----------



## StarshipClass

Gregatron said:


> I ordered...*sigh*...a second R2 PE kit, so as to acquire the small bits of pylon grill that go behind the dorsal windows.
> 
> Yes, that might be a bit obessive, I admit.
> 
> 
> But, hey, at least I'll have extra PE, in case there are any problems.


What about using homemade decals to put this pattern on the window?

I was thinking about using decals on the nacelle strut vents (each replaced with a rectangle of clear plastic) on some of the smaller models to get the correct pattern mesh and reveal the piping underneath. It would also make sense to use decals on the window I would think.


----------



## Opus Penguin

Gary K said:


> You got it - including the correct color scheme for the nacelle trench! On the box art Jamie Hood had to Photoshop the light-colored ends onto the intercoolers in Petri Blomqvist's color renderings since Petri hadn't yet had time to correct the newly-discovered color scheme on his Lightwave model.
> 
> FYI, if you are building a model of the Rollout version of the 11-footer, remove the ribs & the small tab from each intercooler and paint the entire thing light gray.
> 
> Gary


Is the trench itself (the photo-etched area) supposed to be silver or more a dark grey?


----------



## Gary K

Opus Penguin said:


> Is the trench itself (the photo-etched area) supposed to be silver or more a dark grey?


The grills on the 11-footer were a silvery metal, but they sprayed an irregular pattern of darker-colored weathering on the metal to minimize glares - the opposite of what JJ Abrams would have done. 

Gary


----------



## Nova Designs

He would've had millions of blue LEDs and anamorphic flares in there.... ugh!


----------



## Gregatron

Gary K said:


> People used to assume that the entire trench was darker gray, while we now know that the slanted walls of the trench are hull-colored.
> 
> Gary



Man, you learn something everyday!

And that explains what I thought was a mistake (or molding limitation) on the kit!


----------



## woof359

*3 footer*

did they use the 3 footer in the episode "Requiem for Methuselah" ?


----------



## John P

Gary K said:


> People used to assume that the entire trench was darker gray, while we now know that the slanted walls of the trench are hull-colored.
> 
> Gary


Well, crap. :lol:


----------



## Captain April

woof359 said:


> did they use the 3 footer in the episode "Requiem for Methuselah" ?


For the tabletop scene, yes.


----------



## StarshipClass

John P said:


> Well, crap. :lol:


It's shading [_cough! cough!_]. Yes, that's it [_cough! cough!_] shading! :thumbsup:


----------



## RossW

Gary K said:


> People used to assume that the entire trench was darker gray, while we now know that the slanted walls of the trench are hull-colored.
> 
> Gary


Gary - if the slanted walls of the trench are hull-coloured, what about the slanted parts at either end of the trench?










http://flic.kr/p/dM8yAi


----------



## Gary K

RossW said:


> Gary - if the slanted walls of the trench are hull-coloured, what about the slanted parts at either end of the trench?


The slanted aft end of the trench is dark gray, too, but the front end is a little different. The front end of the trench is semi-circular, with lots of hull-colored filleting to blend the bottom of the trench with the outer edges. The fwd edge of the dark gray area is along the flat floor of the trench. It's semicircular, the same diameter as the width of the raised support frame for the metal grills, and there's a sharp demarcation line between the dark gray and hull-colored areas.

It'd be much to show you a picture of the fwd end than it is to describe it, but unfortunately I'm on my laptop & I don't have the appropriate jpegs on my hard drive.

Gary


----------



## ronwojnar

Folks,

What techniques and gluing medium are you all using to actually get the nacelle halves together?


----------



## Opus Penguin

I used Testors model glue, and once together, I rubber banded them together until dry. Afterwards I just used Bondo to putty the seams. They are now almost invisible. I am very happy with the look now.


----------



## StarshipClass

Gary K said:


> It'd be much to show you a picture of the fwd end than it is to describe it, but unfortunately I'm on my laptop & I don't have the appropriate jpegs on my hard drive.


I'd love to see the pic when you get a chance to post it.:thumbsup:


----------



## John P

ronwojnar said:


> Folks,
> 
> What techniques and gluing medium are you all using to actually get the nacelle halves together?


Copious amounts of good ol' Testors liquid cement on both halves, and rubber bands to squeeze them together. I used gap-filling superglue to get rid of the seams, but that dried too hard and required a lot more sanding than I wanted to do. I'll use Bondo next time.


----------



## Opus Penguin

PerfesserCoffee said:


> I'd love to see the pic when you get a chance to post it.:thumbsup:


A picture should clarify, but it looks like the model is already molded this way. If you look at the long middle piece that holds the photo-etched trench pieces, it is already molded in the color Gary describes and in the way he is describing. This allows for the upper and lower beveled edges to be hull color along with the front part of the trench, right after the semi-circle portion of the middle piece. I hope this makes sense.


----------



## StarshipClass

Opus Penguin said:


> A picture should clarify, but it looks like the model is already molded this way. If you look at the long middle piece that holds the photo-etched trench pieces, it is already molded in the color Gary describes and in the way he is describing. This allows for the upper and lower beveled edges to be hull color along with the front part of the trench, right after the semi-circle portion of the middle piece. I hope this makes sense.


Ah! That makes PERFECT sense, Opus! Thanks for clarifying!:thumbsup:


----------



## TrekFX

The attention to detail lavished upon this kit just continues to amaze!


----------



## RossW

Opus Penguin said:


> A picture should clarify, but it looks like the model is already molded this way. If you look at the long middle piece that holds the photo-etched trench pieces, it is already molded in the color Gary describes and in the way he is describing. This allows for the upper and lower beveled edges to be hull color along with the front part of the trench, right after the semi-circle portion of the middle piece. I hope this makes sense.


I've already installed and primered those parts, but do you mean the plastic inserts which gets covered by the PE (part #'s 45 & 46), or the bigger piece which meets up with the aft slanted piece which joins up to the hull (part #44)? Also, the inner nacelle pieces (part #'s 35 & 36) include the slanted part which looks to be the darker grey.

I've puttied the seam between #44 and the inner nacelle pieces so doing the semicircular demarcation that Gary mentioned will be tough


----------



## Opus Penguin

RossW said:


> I've already installed and primered those parts, but do you mean the plastic inserts which gets covered by the PE (part #'s 45 & 46), or the bigger piece which meets up with the aft slanted piece which joins up to the hull (part #44)? Also, the inner nacelle pieces (part #'s 35 & 36) include the slanted part which looks to be the darker grey.
> 
> I've puttied the seam between #44 and the inner nacelle pieces so doing the semicircular demarcation that Gary mentioned will be tough


Part #44 is what I am referring to. That would be the darker grey. The photo-etch is a dark silver color. From what I can tell from Gary's description, parts 35 and 36 would be all hull color (except for some grey accents but not in the nacelle trench). Make sense? Of course, if I am wrong, then please Gary step in here.


----------



## RossW

Thanks Opus. Still can't picture the fwd slanted side wall part but maybe Gary will find that photo he tantalized us with


----------



## RossW

I've spent the last week working on the grid lines (and let's not open up the debate on that, please. For the record I completely agree with PL for doing them, but in my mind's eye the E is mostly smooth. A personal preference and not a knock against this kit). 

The first attempt and completely filling the lines on the underside of the saucer was with multiple coats of Tamiya Surface Primer and Mr Surfacer 500 (hand brushed). Still visible. 

Multiple coats of automotive primer - still visible. 

Next up was a slurry of automotive putty mixed with Testors liquid cement - worked pretty good, but ended up covering more detail than I wanted (including the windows - and the addition of the liquid cement made the putty very 'hot' which melted the plastic between the windows somewhat).

After cleaning out all the windows and other obscured details, I remembered a detail from Paul M Newitt's review on Cult's site - use acrylic modelling paste instead. Well, I've tried the Liquitex brand (which he recommended way back when in SFAM 4) but it pulls off when wet sanding (which is the only way I know to get a smooth finish). But I grabbed another artist's modelling paste (flagged as 'sharp' which means it's thick enough and has enough strength to stay in the desired texture) and it's working beautifully - cleans up with water and wet sands very nice. Shouldn't be any problem to finish the bottom of the saucer.

For the topside, I wanted the grid lines to be visible but reduced in effect so again with the Tamiya Surface Primer + Mr Surfacer 500 + multiple coats of primer. Looks pretty good, although it's impossible to make all the grid lines completely even in depth.

All in all, unless you desperately want to have a smooth looking E and are willing to spend a lot of time & effort covering them up, maybe just leave the grid lines alone ...


----------



## Hunch

Bondo'd mine up nice and purdy. Seeing how nice it looks and how close it is to seeing it on TV, I think I'll eliminate the pencil lines all togther. Smooth as a babys butt!


----------



## Gary K

RossW said:


> Thanks Opus. Still can't picture the fwd slanted side wall part but maybe Gary will find that photo he tantalized us with


That's easier said than done. Unfortunately I've been spending almost all my time at the hospital (as a visitor, not as a patient), and I don't have the appropriate files on my laptop. Does this photo from Phil Broad's site help you?

http://cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/STEnterprise/ent73.jpg

Gary


----------



## mach7

I've painted the gridlines with Mr. Surfacer 500, sanded, primed with auto filler/primer, sanded and primed again. 

The lines are still very visible. I'm not looking for a smooth look either, I just want to knock them down a bit.



I still have at least 2 top coats to go. Hopefully they will end up very faint.

And yah, that screen name is, well, never mind...


----------



## DEST

Have not modeled in years

I'm building a revell tos enterprise as a dry run (for everything from paint selection/mixing to electronics set up) for picking up the 350 scale. 

Can i ask, how are you guys planning on approaching the rust ring on the saucer in terms of specific paint choices?


----------



## DEST

Additionally. 

Has anyone looked at the new minitaire line of pre thinned for airbrush paints. When i pull d6-105 (dusty ground) into scalemodeldb.com/paint the closest match is jn grey from tamiya. It is a fraction less saturated than the jn though which seems ideal given a little white is meant to be added to the jn grey before use on the tos. Since i am new to airbrushing i am probably going to use this as it means no colour mixing or having to match a mixed batch colour if i screw up later.

It almost looks like they had the tos enterprise in mind when they made it.


----------



## starmanmm

DEST asked


> Can i ask, how are you guys planning on approaching the rust ring on the saucer in terms of specific paint choices?


What I have used in the past, on the smaller scale ships which look good to me, was to use pastels.

You have all the control and mistakes are easy to fix.


----------



## woof359

*R and D*

so many things I wood do a differant way and I might yet buy another one of these to build a better one



Uploaded with ImageShack.us


----------



## Proper2

A good example of the importance of priming for light leaks: 











http://www.ebay.com/itm/Star-Trek-U...004&pid=100011&prg=1005&rk=1&sd=111000585749&


----------



## Captain April

Is it just me, or does that model look like it hasn't been painted *at all?*


----------



## Opus Penguin

Proper2 said:


> A good example of the importance of priming for light leaks:


Yep! I even primed mine and still have some light leaks. I suspect I will have to add more coats of black on the outside of the model as well. Yours still looks good regardless.


----------



## Paulbo

Proper2 said:


> A good example of the importance of priming for light leaks...


I think the Ebay definition of "pro-built" is different from the one I've been using all my life.


----------



## Proper2

Opus Penguin said:


> Yep! I even primed mine and still have some light leaks. I suspect I will have to add more coats of black on the outside of the model as well. Yours still looks good regardless.



Not mine. Just saw it on the Bay advertised as "pro-built."


----------



## retheridge

*Back to pastels...*

Question...I've seen both chalk and oil pastels mentioned here. In reguards to the oil pastels, will a final dullcoat spray work over oil pastels without the dullcoat geting all goofy? Is there a waiting period before you can do a final overcoat? I have not used these before and before I go out and buy a set, I was just wondering about this issue.

Thanks, Rick


----------



## starmanmm

You don't spray dull coat directly on the pastels.... you spray it the air and pass the model through it. I do that 2 or 3 times.

If you spray it directly... you turn it all to mud.

It needs a misting action.


----------



## beeblebrox

> This model features Frosted Buzzard Collectors ...


That must be what they call Cow Catchers up north.


----------



## DEST

Paulbo said:


> I think the Ebay definition of "pro-built" is different from the one I've been using all my life.


I am not sure which is lowering my jaw more at this point. 

That 300 dollars did not meet the reserve on this.

That 300 dollars was bid on this.


----------



## DEST

starmanmm said:


> DEST asked
> 
> 
> What I have used in the past, on the smaller scale ships which look good to me, was to use pastels.
> 
> You have all the control and mistakes are easy to fix.


Roger. Many thanks.


----------



## TrekFX

beeblebrox said:


> Quote:
> This model features Frosted Buzzard Collectors ...


There's a name for the band...:hat:


----------



## nightspore

Paulbo said:


> I think the Ebay definition of "pro-built" is different from the one I've been using all my life.


I've understood that the only difference between an amateur and a professional is that a professional gets paid.


----------



## beeblebrox

I don't like the idea of sealing this up forever, so I made this removeable.


----------



## Paulbo

Interesting idea using the screws. I've read several posts of people planning to use neodinium magnets.


----------



## Opus Penguin

Proper2 said:


> Not mine. Just saw it on the Bay advertised as "pro-built."


Ahhhhh. I missed that. It looks to be in the preliminary stages. If this is finished then I wouldn't consider it professional.


----------



## Arkons

*Some Pics*

Thought I'd show some pics of my build. Didn't do lights but really wanted to make a nice weathered version. Mostly the decal kit on the saucer with my own additions. The big streaks on the rest of the ship are decals and the rest pastels. The pics don't do it complete justice as the flash tends to bleed out the blending of the weathering. This kit is so well designed and made that even a so-so builder like myself can make a pretty respectable replica.


----------



## mbss1979

*Weathering*

Nice job! Natural plastic color, or painted?


----------



## mach7

Wow! nice build. The weathering decals look much better than I expected.

Thanks for sharing the photos.


----------



## Arkons

*Pics/Weathering*

Thank you for the kind words! I went ahead and just used the bare plastic as it was already molded in the actual color of the 11 footer. The dull coat makes it look painted anyhow. I was surprised at how good the weathering decals looked also. I thought I was going to not like it but it came out nicer than I thought. Because of how heavily weathered the saucer turned out made my decision to weather the whole thing heavily. I wish my camera's flash didn't bleed the coloring so bad. It makes my weathering look more "striped" in the pics than it actually is. I really tried to think of how the streaks would look such as, more heavy at the front of the engines, pylons and main sensor area. Added "heat" streaks behind the little rectangles near the bussards and rear of the engines. Even a little bit behind the red and green lights on the top of the saucer. Also added some black in areas where there's corners such as where the pylons connect to engines and secondary hull, neck connects to saucer/lower hull and around the bridge area. I'm glad this model was molded in color. The refit kit made me so angry with so much painting and having to handpaint the aztec panels (before the decals came out) and everything else. Plus all the issues with that kit's poorly fitting parts made me almost give up model building forever. Ha! Ha! This TOS kit renewed my faith once again! Really fun to build and it's fun to watch everyone's individual take on how to build it and their results.


----------



## John Duncan

Wow! Great build. :thumbsup:


----------



## modelmaker 2001

I just bought one of the kits and I was hoping to find a decal placement guide but I don't see any. I don't know where some of the very small decals (#'s 11 - 14, 27 - 31, & 38 - 56) are supposed to exactly go on the model.

I'd also like a paint guide, too.


----------



## Skyking918

modelmaker 2001 said:


> I just bought one of the kits and I was hoping to find a decal placement guide but I don't see any. I don't know where some of the very small decals (#'s 11 - 14, 27 - 31, & 38 - 56) are supposed to exactly go on the model.
> 
> I'd also like a paint guide, too.


Decal instructions are on a separate sheet. Paint guide is on the sides of the box.


----------



## SteveR

Skyking918 said:


> Paint guide is on the sides of the box.


... the _inside_ box, that is.


----------



## beeblebrox

Okay. The story so far. Interior light blocking has consisted so far of various combinations of Sharpie marker, foil tape and black craft paint depending on the part. After all that, I sealed up the saucer neck with LED lighting and of course, there's a few leaks around the pin connections of the two halves. 

NO PROBLEM..

I didn't want to spray the outside with black because that always shows through around the window masks once you pick them off. 

SOLUTION (I hope. LOL) in order:

1] mask windows
2] hook up lighting in a dark room and hit leaks with black Sharpie, power off
3] spray with Krylon White Plastic Primer
4] spray with Krylon Gray Primer
5] check for defects, sand, more gray primer
6] apply color coat
7] weathering, gloss coat, decals, flat coat
8] fly ship around room making warp noises

I should point out I'm only to step 5 and I'll be testing out the decals on B/C deck so stay tuned.


----------



## modelmaker 2001

I completely overlooked the paint and decal instructions printed around the outside of the lower/inner box. Thanks, guys!


----------



## beeblebrox

Front of neck with "steel gray".


----------



## John F

beeblebrox said:


> I don't like the idea of sealing this up forever, so I made this removeable.


mine stayed in place fine just by friction fit, so I left it removable for access


----------



## mbss1979

*Testors Gloss Lacquer*

Never have used Tamiya acrylic paint before. Going to airbrush the JN Grey on the new E. Can you use Testors Gloss Lacquer over that paint through an airbrush to gloss areas for the decals? Don't want to ruin the finish. Want to make sure they are going to work together.


----------



## Nektu

*Injection flaws/diimpling/sink marks*

Hey guys
I had some major flaws on my secondary hull, and inner nacelle halves. Major dimpling where the inner supports are molded. I sent for replacements, and after three weeks parts came, somewhat better... But plainly visible, an in need of major filing. Have you guys had the same issue? I don't mint a bit of filling, but these are deep and right across the windows on the secondary hull. Any thoughts or insights? K


----------



## Proper2

Nektu said:


> Hey guys
> I had some major flaws on my secondary hull, and inner nacelle halves. Major dimpling where the inner supports are molded. I sent for replacements, and after three weeks parts came, somewhat better... But plainly visible, an in need of major filing. Have you guys had the same issue? I don't mint a bit of filling, but these are deep and right across the windows on the secondary hull. Any thoughts or insights? K



Sorry to hear that. I know this isn't very helpful, but I would send for replacements of the replacements until you get parts that are not so flawed. I know, it's a long wait to get parts.  I don't know if anybody else has had these issues. (I haven't opened my kit yet.)


----------



## Nektu

Thanks. I was assuming others have had to have the same problem. Anyone we? I saw a build on YouTube an he was using Bondo glazing putty on his nacelles. The outside halves are fine, inside ones are bad. The top parts of my replacement parts on the secondary hull will need serious work.


----------



## Gary7

Nektu said:


> Hey guys
> I had some major flaws on my secondary hull, and inner nacelle halves. Major dimpling where the inner supports are molded. I sent for replacements, and after three weeks parts came, somewhat better... But plainly visible, an in need of major filing. Have you guys had the same issue? I don't mint a bit of filling, but these are deep and right across the windows on the secondary hull. Any thoughts or insights? K


Yes, my secondary has them, too. Same spots. I haven't opened the nacelles to check them yet. I had planed to start building next week end, maybe not.


----------



## woof359

a few dimples here and there, with parts this big I guess it isnt unusal


----------



## Proper2

Interestingly, Autoworld is now sold out of the kits, and Ebay only has 6 available from US sellers, with the cheapest one currently at $225. Only other place online I can locate one in stock is Al's Hobby store in IL, and as of now they only have 3 left.

I wonder if this is just a temporary outage between releases... they sure dried up suddenly.


----------



## John P

I had really bad sinkmarks on the lower hull around the mounting pole hole.


----------



## starmanmm

*Part 138*

part 138... in the past, there have been discussions that the nacells had running lights. This item maybe the running lights that have been talked about.

So, I guess that they did exist. 

Any thoughts on lighting it via fiber optics or turned down led?


----------



## jaws62666

Proper2 said:


> Interestingly, Autoworld is now sold out of the kits, and Ebay only has 6 available from US sellers, with the cheapest one currently at $225. Only other place online I can locate one in stock is Al's Hobby store in IL, and as of now they only have 3 left.
> 
> I wonder if this is just a temporary outage between releases... they sure dried up suddenly.


Cheap and in stock
http://culttvmanshop.com/Classic-US...-EDITION-from-Polar-LightsRound-2_p_2371.html


----------



## Proper2

jaws62666 said:


> Cheap and in stock
> http://culttvmanshop.com/Classic-US...-EDITION-from-Polar-LightsRound-2_p_2371.html


Thanks, but when I add one to my cart and then click proceed to checkout, I get a message telling me that I have nothing in my cart. I'm sure the item is in my shopping cart because it shows at the top: Shopping Cart -1item(s) / Total: $129.95. I will contact them to see what the deal is...


----------



## Opus Penguin

Got a quick question on the decals ... I was cutting away the decals for my shuttle and shuttlebay and found a drop of water accidentally dropped on one of the main registry decals. Will this hurt it at all or am I still good when I need to use it? If I need to get a replacement is there a way to get just the one sheet or do I need to invest in the decal accessory sheet from R2?


----------



## J_Indy

*Only minor problem with my kit*

Newbie here - joined just to see what people are doing in their builds. Lots of great stuff I hadn't thought of. 

The only problem I had with my kit was an off-center axle on one of my fan-blade pieces, but I will be able to correct it on my own after separating the malformed axle from the dome. Maybe these axles should be molded separately if there is a chance they will be released from the mold too soon and curve.

Otherwise, no indentations in the plastic parts. Great kit and kudos to everyone involved who made such a great model (finally!!)

I had once considered buying a MR TOS, but the one thing that I couldn't put up with was the two forward windows on the B/C deck being too high. It was a minor thing - and the model is still great - but for the price, I knew it would bother me.

Now I can build my own - with a shuttle bay and bridge if I want. Though that may take quite a while under the "measure twice, cut once" philosophy...


----------



## Opus Penguin

The "off-center axle" issue has been a heated issue here since the kit was released. If you don't want to go through the trouble of fixing it, you can contact Round 2 for a replacement which will be corrected. However, the wait in getting the replacement seems to be averaging about a month to a month and a half.


----------



## John P

Proper2 said:


> Thanks, but when I add one to my cart and then click proceed to checkout, I get a message telling me that I have nothing in my cart. I'm sure the item is in my shopping cart because it shows at the top: Shopping Cart -1item(s) / Total: $129.95. I will contact them to see what the deal is...


That keeps happening to me over there too.


----------



## Skyking918

If you are having problems with CulTVMan's shopping cart, turn off "Block Pop-Up Windows" in your browser. I was having the same problem and stumbled across that solution. Don't know why it works, but it did for me.


----------



## Proper2

Skyking918 said:


> If you are having problems with CulTVMan's shopping cart, turn off "Block Pop-Up Windows" in your browser. I was having the same problem and stumbled across that solution. Don't know why it works, but it did for me.


Thanks, just tried that but it didn't work for me. Awaiting a reply to the email I sent. Apparently they don't have a phone number to talk to someone.


----------



## J_Indy

Opus Penguin said:


> The "off-center axle" issue has been a heated issue here since the kit was released. If you don't want to go through the trouble of fixing it, you can contact Round 2 for a replacement which will be corrected. However, the wait in getting the replacement seems to be averaging about a month to a month and a half.


Thanks for the info. I was able to rock the axle back and forth while holding the dome firmly, cracking it off with only a trace of it left on the dome, which a bit of sanding will get rid of. Then I can affix a clear tube with some canopy glue and center it properly.

I'm guessing that somebody is going to eventually go all out and put some lasers into this kit so it can fire phasers. That would be beyond me.

The shuttle bay looks great - but I seem to recall 3 'conveyor belts' on the bay floor corresponding to the landing gear positions on the shuttle. The shuttle would land and the belts would roll it into position back onto the circular pad.

Will be simple enough to add those though.


----------



## Havok69

Proper2 said:


> Thanks, just tried that but it didn't work for me. Awaiting a reply to the email I sent. Apparently they don't have a phone number to talk to someone.


Probably is a cookies problem.

If you use Internet Explorer, then open Internet Explorer, click the Tools button, and then click Internet Options. click the Privacy tab, and then, under Settings, move the slider to the bottom to allow all cookies, and then click OK.

If you have Firefox, open Firefox and click the Firefox button in the top left. Click Options, then Privacy Settings. Set "Firefox will:" to "Remember history", click OK.


----------



## Opus Penguin

J_Indy said:


> Thanks for the info. I was able to rock the axle back and forth while holding the dome firmly, cracking it off with only a trace of it left on the dome, which a bit of sanding will get rid of. Then I can affix a clear tube with some canopy glue and center it properly.
> 
> I'm guessing that somebody is going to eventually go all out and put some lasers into this kit so it can fire phasers. That would be beyond me.
> 
> The shuttle bay looks great - but I seem to recall 3 'conveyor belts' on the bay floor corresponding to the landing gear positions on the shuttle. The shuttle would land and the belts would roll it into position back onto the circular pad.
> 
> Will be simple enough to add those though.


The belts are part of the decal that goes on the floor of the shuttlebay. Also if you plan to light the kit, be aware the shuttlebay is a very tight fit without the lights so even tighter with. I just completed the secondary hull on my model, and it was difficult. I had to putty a small gap on top which involved a fair amount of work, but now the seam is almost invisible. What is cool is how it looks now though.


----------



## J_Indy

Opus Penguin said:


> The belts are part of the decal that goes on the floor of the shuttlebay. Also if you plan to light the kit, be aware the shuttlebay is a very tight fit without the lights so even tighter with. I just completed the secondary hull on my model, and it was difficult. I had to putty a small gap on top which involved a fair amount of work, but now the seam is almost invisible. What is cool is how it looks now though.


Thanks - I saw some vids and yeah, that shuttle-bay looks like it has to be wedged-in there with a shoehorn.....

I am starting to have some nutty ideas. I have an old motor that is meant to turn a miniature carousel in a carnival diorama, and was thinking a belt-mechanism might be able to rotate the shuttle on it's circular pad after cutting the hole for the pad. It would probably have to be under-powered to rotate even slower though...

Of course, I haven't built a model in ages, so all this thinking is helping me postpone the day when I actually start working on it... :tongue:


----------



## jaws62666

J_Indy said:


> Thanks - I saw some vids and yeah, that shuttle-bay looks like it has to be wedged-in there with a shoehorn.....
> 
> I am starting to have some nutty ideas. I have an old motor that is meant to turn a miniature carousel in a carnival diorama, and was thinking a belt-mechanism might be able to rotate the shuttle on it's circular pad after cutting the hole for the pad. It would probably have to be under-powered to rotate even slower though...
> 
> Of course, I haven't built a model in ages, so all this thinking is helping me postpone the day when I actually start working on it... :tongue:


Im up to that point now myself. So leaving the gap open and puttying it doesnt affect the rest of the rear fantail fitting? What about the 3 lights that go on top on the stern? How did you mount those. This is the last part of my build, and I dont want to be frustrated. When I test fit the bay, it left a fairly big gap. I could squeeze it tighter but when i did, The lights went out. It looks like it is just my top that is tight. I might try to file down the inner top of the secondary hull to see if that works.


----------



## RossW

Has anyone applied the inner nacelle grill PE parts yet? If so, how did you bend the fore/aft edge over the plastic kit part? This is the first model I will have used PE and so far I've only done the impulse engines:










http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z301/RossAWaddell/TOS E 1_350 Project/DSC_0078_zpse6dd58a5.jpg

(I painted the front side of the PE dark grey, frosted the kit clear part with steel wool and glued it in around the rim of the PE with super glue. I then glued in a thin piece of white opaque plastic behind the PE in hopes of further diffusing the lights).

I've watched the first of Paulbo's YouTube videos on working with PE but I'm a bit hesitant to invest in tools if I don't have to.


----------



## J_Indy

jaws62666 said:


> Im up to that point now myself. So leaving the gap open and puttying it doesnt affect the rest of the rear fantail fitting? What about the 3 lights that go on top on the stern? How did you mount those. This is the last part of my build, and I dont want to be frustrated. When I test fit the bay, it left a fairly big gap. I could squeeze it tighter but when i did, The lights went out. It looks like it is just my top that is tight. I might try to file down the inner top of the secondary hull to see if that works.


Not sure if you meant to direct that at me, as I am at this point just taking inventory of all the pieces in the kit.

I do, however, intend to purchase the lighting kit that comes with clear pieces to light the shuttle-bay. Since there have been so many comments about how tight the fit is, I plan on experimenting with the opaque pieces in the standard kit - seeing if shaving certain edges can give me a satisfactory fit without marring the look of the overall piece - then doing the same to the clear pieces if I find a good adjustment.


----------



## jaws62666

J_Indy said:


> Not sure if you meant to direct that at me, as I am at this point just taking inventory of all the pieces in the kit.
> 
> I do, however, intend to purchase the lighting kit that comes with clear pieces to light the shuttle-bay. Since there have been so many comments about how tight the fit is, I plan on experimenting with the opaque pieces in the standard kit - seeing if shaving certain edges can give me a satisfactory fit without marring the look of the overall piece - then doing the same to the clear pieces if I find a good adjustment.


That was for Opus sorry:thumbsup:


----------



## jaws62666

Opus Penguin said:


> The belts are part of the decal that goes on the floor of the shuttlebay. Also if you plan to light the kit, be aware the shuttlebay is a very tight fit without the lights so even tighter with. I just completed the secondary hull on my model, and it was difficult. I had to putty a small gap on top which involved a fair amount of work, but now the seam is almost invisible. What is cool is how it looks now though.



Im up to that point now myself. So leaving the gap open and puttying it doesnt affect the rest of the rear fantail fitting? What about the 3 lights that go on top on the stern? How did you mount those. This is the last part of my build, and I dont want to be frustrated. When I test fit the bay, it left a fairly big gap. I could squeeze it tighter but when i did, The lights went out. It looks like it is just my top that is tight. I might try to file down the inner top of the secondary hull to see if that works.


----------



## Opus Penguin

jaws62666 said:


> Im up to that point now myself. So leaving the gap open and puttying it doesnt affect the rest of the rear fantail fitting? What about the 3 lights that go on top on the stern? How did you mount those. This is the last part of my build, and I dont want to be frustrated. When I test fit the bay, it left a fairly big gap. I could squeeze it tighter but when i did, The lights went out. It looks like it is just my top that is tight. I might try to file down the inner top of the secondary hull to see if that works.


I ran into a similar situation (lights would go out). I was worried I damaged a side LED. I have not had any further problems so believe I am good at this point. For the three small lights on top, before I glued the halves together, I glued the clear piece to one side of the hull knowing the other side would not be cemented so I had to be sure it was all secure first. After gluing the two halves together, I used a clamp to squeeze the sides of the secondary hull pieces as close together without doing any damage (this is basically a "press together as much as you feel comfortable doing" situation). I glued down the length of the top of the hull, inside the small gap to make sure it was well cemented. When glue dried and clamp removed, I used Bondo Putty to fill the gap at this point then sanded, puttied, sanded, puttied ... etc. until I was happy that the seam was gone. As for those 3 lights, I left the middle peg out for now until I got the gaps in between the lights filled. This was the hard part and I am still trying to get it where I am happy. It is coming along though. When I have it where I want I will post a picture.


----------



## Trek Ace

I would do whatever I could to ensure that there was no gap in the rear of the engineering section. Any gap (whether filled or not) will result in the engine nacelles no longer being properly aligned. They will splay outward toward the rear and dip down slightly, instead of being parallel to one another.


----------



## Opus Penguin

The gap was 1 maybe 2 millimeters so I don't see this seriously impacting the nacelle placement, but it was as close together as I could get it.


----------



## J_Indy

Wow - out of curiosity I pulled the hanger deck pieces off the sprues and taped it together to see how it fits. "Barely" comes to mind...

I might have to shave the slots in the floor and back wall that the wall tabs fit into to move the walls a fraction closer together, then sand down the left/right side of the ceiling to compensate for them being closer. If that'll even work...

No wonder people say that is the toughest part.


----------



## Opus Penguin

Ok ... decided to post some results here to show what I have done. Please keep in mind I am still working on this so flaws are still visible, but it gives you an idea what I am doing and how the top lights look. If you look closely, you can see the seam width that I puttied then sprayed primer over to see how invisible I could make it.The point here is to show what can be done, even with the tight room. First picture is a view of the top lights (and this is as bright as they get since its position makes it hard to get lighting to it), the second is the shuttle bay (I am blocking the observation window light with my finger so it doesn't wash out the picture). Looking at the first photo, you can barely make out the seam line.


----------



## J_Indy

Opus Penguin said:


> Ok ... decided to post some results here to show what I have done. Please keep in mind I am still working on this so flaws are still visible, but it gives you an idea what I am doing and how the top lights look. If you look closely, you can see the seam width that I puttied then sprayed primer over to see how invisible I could make it.The point here is to show what can be done, even with the tight room. First picture is a view of the top lights (and this is as bright as they get since its position makes it hard to get lighting to it), the second is the shuttle bay (I am blocking the observation window light with my finger so it doesn't wash out the picture). Looking at the first photo, you can barely make out the seam line.


Looks fantastic!! :thumbsup:

Are those Paragrafix silhouettes in the observation windows?

Edit: oops - those are lighting details. My mistake.


----------



## Opus Penguin

Yes they are. They come in very handy. Unfortunately my bay will not turn out as good as I hoped, but I figure unless someone gets up on it real close, they will not notice the flaws. So this is pretty close to the final look.


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## Proper2

Opus Penguin said:


> First picture is a view of the top lights (and this is as bright as they get since its position makes it hard to get lighting to it), the second is the shuttle bay (I am blocking the observation window light with my finger so it doesn't wash out the picture).



That bay looks very cool! How large a gap did you have to fill at the top of the hull, 1/16"?


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## Opus Penguin

Proper2 said:


> That bay looks very cool! How large a gap did you have to fill at the top of the hull, 1/16"?


Pretty close to that. I think slightly smaller, but it may be that at the widest point.


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## Rahn

No gap will be tolerated here.

I WILL make it fit!

Where's that hydraulic vise.


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## BruceDownunder

*Nacelle lighting*

Been working on the nacelles today and just test-installed the three LED strips that come with the PL accessory pack. I placed the lights where the kit suggests and got some serious hot spots when I covered the openings with the clear plastic and PL photo etch grills. So, I removed the light strips and placed them at the bottom edge of the nacelle, almost at the seam. As my nacelles are painted black, then grey and finally white on the interior, the light reflects evenly against the white and doesn't show up any of the hot spots that an outward facing LED does. Hope this helps.


----------



## Proper2

J_Indy said:


> I had once considered buying a MR TOS, but the one thing that I couldn't put up with was the two forward windows on the B/C deck being too high. It was a minor thing - and the model is still great - but for the price, I knew it would bother me.
> 
> Now I can build my own - with a shuttle bay and bridge if I want. Though that may take quite a while under the "measure twice, cut once" philosophy...



The high forward windows being so small as they are very minor for me. The main issue that I have with the MR Enterprise is that the nacelles (and even the saucer) typically show a slight droop or tilt of about 1º to 1.5º despite having a metal armature inside. And to a lesser degree, the inaccuracy of the fantail deck. Otherwise, the MR is tough to beat. I was fortunate to have bought a new signature edition for $1.7K. The price is steep but it's beautifully built, lighted and painted (no decals) and the flagship of my collection, and I could never do that kind of job on my own kit.

Still, someday when I retire maybe...


----------



## J_Indy

Proper2 said:


> The high forward windows being so small as they are very minor for me. The main issue that I have with the MR Enterprise is that the nacelles (and even the saucer) typically show a slight droop or tilt of about 1º to 1.5º despite having a metal armature inside. And to a lesser degree, the inaccuracy of the fantail deck. Otherwise, the MR is tough to beat. I was fortunate to have bought a new signature edition for $1.7K. The price is steep but it's beautifully built, lighted and painted (no decals) and the flagship of my collection, and I could never do that kind of job on my own kit.
> 
> Still, someday when I retire maybe...


I was a hair-trigger away from buying one. The MR is a great model, but it was a personal thing for me, because it was so obvious. For $1k+ I didn't want to look at it and see the B/C windows too high, because that was where my attention would be drawn immediately each time, giving me a feeling something wasn't right. I suppose I could have corrected it myself, but then sell it to me for $300....

Also, I was reading where it was pot-luck if you got one with the gridlines properly done (aligned properly). I really didn't want to be shipping the thing back if I was not satisfied. (Also, I didn't know the fantail had errors too. The sag is surprising given the metal internal support.)

I think the R2/PL solution is MUCH better (not to mention way cheaper, even when lit). It may take some time to build (I really only want to be anal-retentive about 1 of them - but may build more just for fun). Can get 3 for the price of 1 MR.  But again, it is just a personal preference.

The only issue I may look to augment is to maybe see if I can fit some small rectangular brass tubing in the pylons, and run wires through it. It would be nice to have some metal supports in there, but the fit is already so tight I'm not sure it is feasible....


----------



## J_Indy

Opus Penguin said:


> Ok ... decided to post some results here to show what I have done. Please keep in mind I am still working on this so flaws are still visible, but it gives you an idea what I am doing and how the top lights look. If you look closely, you can see the seam width that I puttied then sprayed primer over to see how invisible I could make it.The point here is to show what can be done, even with the tight room. First picture is a view of the top lights (and this is as bright as they get since its position makes it hard to get lighting to it), the second is the shuttle bay (I am blocking the observation window light with my finger so it doesn't wash out the picture). Looking at the first photo, you can barely make out the seam line.


The shuttle-bay looks 1st-rate. I think the only way it could be better is if there were actually tiny people walking around in there...

Question - it looks like you are using the clear pieces of the lighting kit. Are you allowing some light to come through the ceiling from the squares on the ceiling supports that face the outer walls?

I was looking at some pics of the bay online:

http://www.cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/STShuttlecraft/DVDimages/GalileoDVDimagesSht1.htm

and the outer edges of the 2 ceiling supports towards the wall are dark.

But if I build it and don't allow light to come through those squares, maybe the walls would be too dark because the space is so small - so maybe would have to skip on "accuracy" for that piece.


----------



## Opus Penguin

BruceDownunder said:


> Been working on the nacelles today and just test-installed the three LED strips that come with the PL accessory pack. I placed the lights where the kit suggests and got some serious hot spots when I covered the openings with the clear plastic and PL photo etch grills. So, I removed the light strips and placed them at the bottom edge of the nacelle, almost at the seam. As my nacelles are painted black, then grey and finally white on the interior, the light reflects evenly against the white and doesn't show up any of the hot spots that an outward facing LED does. Hope this helps.


Post picks!! Would love to see the result.


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## BruceDownunder

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/802/img0833fw.jpg/

The pic makes the image a lot brighter and yellowish - but you get the idea.


----------



## Opus Penguin

Nice diffusion! That looks good.


----------



## BruceDownunder

Thanks!
Another thing is that you can only see the LEDs if you peer into the nacelles from the very top of the ship.
http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/7526/img0833fw.jpg
EDIT: The LED strip is mounted in this location - facing toward the outside wall obviously.


----------



## Proper2

J_Indy said:


> I was a hair-trigger away from buying one. The MR is a great model, but it was a personal thing for me, because it was so obvious. For $1k+ I didn't want to look at it and see the B/C windows too high, because that was where my attention would be drawn immediately each time, giving me a feeling something wasn't right. I suppose I could have corrected it myself, but then sell it to me for $300....
> 
> Also, I was reading where it was pot-luck if you got one with the gridlines properly done (aligned properly). I really didn't want to be shipping the thing back if I was not satisfied. (Also, I didn't know the fantail had errors too. The sag is surprising given the metal internal support.)
> 
> I think the R2/PL solution is MUCH better (not to mention way cheaper, even when lit). It may take some time to build (I really only want to be anal-retentive about 1 of them - but may build more just for fun). Can get 3 for the price of 1 MR.  But again, it is just a personal preference.
> 
> The only issue I may look to augment is to maybe see if I can fit some small rectangular brass tubing in the pylons, and run wires through it. It would be nice to have some metal supports in there, but the fit is already so tight I'm not sure it is feasible....


To me, it's still hard to beat the overall quality build of the MR. Now, I know there are plenty of talented modelers out there building this PL beauty, and many will rival the MR and even be more accurate with a couple of things, even though the MR's spinning bussards, paint quality and no decals are a big plus. But in my case of lack of modeling experience, I would have to commission a build and that would end up probably being more expensive than a MR after all the after market parts and lighting kits and commission fees.


----------



## J_Indy

Proper2 said:


> To me, it's still hard to beat the overall quality build of the MR. Now, I know there are plenty of talented modelers out there building this PL beauty, and many will rival the MR and even be more accurate with a couple of things, even though the MR's spinning bussards, paint quality and no decals are a big plus. But in my case of lack of modeling experience, I would have to commission a build and that would be end up probably being more expensive than a MR after all the after market parts and lighting kits and commission fees.


The one thing about the MR that I cannot find any fault in is the bussards. They got that spot-on imo. Personally I have not seen anything to rival it.

Maybe at the time I was just a bit annoyed at MR because I had purchased the TOS phaser from them based on the picture they had, and it was the one where the P1 ended up shaped like a football - not at all as it was pictured.

I did keep it though, but what I thought would be one of the Holy Grails of TOS and a "Wow!" moment ended up being a "Wo.....WTF?" moment for me instead. :tongue:


----------



## Opus Penguin

I purchased the phaser, communicator, and tricorder from them. The phaser electronics crapped out on me after a year and when I tried to get them to fix it, or provide me a way to fix it they told me they were out of warranty and I was out of luck. I had only bad experiences with them so did not even think about buying an Enterprise from them. I ended up selling all three props.


----------



## Opus Penguin

Ok just found a mistake and it upset me pretty bad. I scuffed the upper dome of the saucer section (the one covering the bridge). Anyone got tips on how I can get it clear again or am I screwed and just need to order a new one from R2?


----------



## Fozzie

Try Future. It will often make scratches all but disappear.


----------



## Opus Penguin

Ok I will try this before resorting to ordering a new one. I have heard about Future but wasn't sure how to use it in these cases. Do I need to wet sand with really fine sand paper first? Thanks.


----------



## SteveR

Nope -- just dip the dome in Future. Aircraft modellers do it with canopies.


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## Opus Penguin

Cool, thanks. Fortunately the scuff mark does not look too bad, but enough to be distracting so I hope this removes it.


----------



## J_Indy

Just out of curiosity - has anyone posted anywhere that they will be doing their 1/350 TOS in the style of Ed Marecki?

Or is it true that everyone really does think that his 'interpretation' blows...? :tongue:


----------



## NathanJ72

J_Indy said:


> Just out of curiosity - has anyone posted anywhere that they will be doing their 1/350 TOS in the style of Ed Marecki?
> 
> Or is it true that everyone really does think that his 'interpretation' blows...? :tongue:


I'm not a big fan of it.


----------



## TrekFX

J_Indy said:


> Just out of curiosity - has anyone posted anywhere that they will be doing their 1/350 TOS in the style of Ed Marecki?
> 
> Or is it true that everyone really does think that his 'interpretation' blows...? :tongue:


Once upon I time I felt very strongly against the restoration. I’ve softened that opinion a lot in the past few years.

It’s pretty well-known that a filming model has two personalities. There’s the one it displays to the naked eye sitting on the stage (ready for its close-up, Mr. Hughes.) There’s the image flashing on the screen after filming, multiple stages of processing and the whims of broadcast television have contributed various degrees of image deterioration and distortion.

The first personality is pretty straightforward. It can be documented and it is essentially “static.” One can dig through the records and if fortunate find hard data. That is the archeology version.

The second personality is a free-for-all. The Enterprise on-screen rarely looked the same way twice! Even cross-cuts went from production to pilot version and sometimes back again. I had a fun time as a kid rationalizing that! The color changed. The look of the engine lighting effect changed. The flashing rate of the various lights and strobes changed. TV stations tweaked their signal differently. Few people cared about a “calibrated display” and adjusted color to where it “looked right” and used all the fancy auto-flesh-tone features and such that only ensured that no two TVs would ever look the same! It is like a recollected event passed down through the ages until it becomes a kernel of truth wrapped in a fantastic story. That is the myth version.

I think the restoration tried to capture to true nature of the filming model. The reservations I have about it are of the techniques used and some finesse issues.

Besides examining what photographic and anecdotal resources surface from time to time I’ve spent a lot of time analyzing DVD captures using more advanced methods of enhancement like image stacking. While only a few effects sequences lend themselves to this, those that do reveal a lot of weathering detail nearly lost on the typical TV. The most obvious case of this is the infamous saucer grid lines... many angry words have blessed the debates over this little detail. What I notice most is the very rough nature of the weathering in places. The first attached image illustrates this pretty well. This is a processed stack of frames taken from The Doomsday Machine on DVD. (If I could pump blu ray into my mac I’d be a much happier camper!)

The restoration effort seems to have used airbrushing almost exclusively. This lends a very smooth and even effect which doesn’t always match the character of the original application. The weathering on the bottom of the saucer reflects this quite well. Compare the look of the bottom to the original work on the top. The airbrushing is so smooth and the soft edges overlap what seem more like hard-edge transitions on the concentric rings of the original. It ends up looking a bit freehand-sloppy rather than precise and structured.

The strength of the weathering, contrast ratio or whatever we can call it is an interesting consideration. Again, the final image on a TV was really washed-out, grainy and unsaturated. I’ve seen flash photos of the restored version which look especially bad. After processing to simulate all the abuse a shot from the effects stage would bear (adding grain, reducing contrast, adding some blur, desaturating colors) it looks remarkably like any scene from an episode. See the second attached image. I also lit the nacelle grille for fun.

Long story short, I don’t hate the restoration. The team did research and collected references (best available over 20 years ago) and went forward from there. Not perfect, but I don’t consider it an abomination. I won’t do mine exactly like it, but I will draw some cues from it. I’ve cross-referenced some “conjectural” details they added and find corroborating evidence in documentation and analysis, so I don’t routinely dismiss anything.


----------



## gman223

Opus Penguin said:


> Ok just found a mistake and it upset me pretty bad. I scuffed the upper dome of the saucer section (the one covering the bridge). Anyone got tips on how I can get it clear again or am I screwed and just need to order a new one from R2?



I've had a few canopies with seams right down the middle, sanded them down then used Tamiya polishing compound, stuff works great.


----------



## J_Indy

TrekFX said:


> Once upon I time I felt very strongly against the restoration. I’ve softened that opinion a lot in the past few years.
> 
> It’s pretty well-known that a filming model has two personalities. There’s the one it displays to the naked eye sitting on the stage (ready for its close-up, Mr. Hughes.) There’s the image flashing on the screen after filming, multiple stages of processing and the whims of broadcast television have contributed various degrees of image deterioration and distortion.
> 
> The first personality is pretty straightforward. It can be documented and it is essentially “static.” One can dig through the records and if fortunate find hard data. That is the archeology version.
> 
> The second personality is a free-for-all. The Enterprise on-screen rarely looked the same way twice! Even cross-cuts went from production to pilot version and sometimes back again. I had a fun time as a kid rationalizing that! The color changed. The look of the engine lighting effect changed. The flashing rate of the various lights and strobes changed. TV stations tweaked their signal differently. Few people cared about a “calibrated display” and adjusted color to where it “looked right” and used all the fancy auto-flesh-tone features and such that only ensured that no two TVs would ever look the same! It is like a recollected event passed down through the ages until it becomes a kernel of truth wrapped in a fantastic story. That is the myth version.
> 
> I think the restoration tried to capture to true nature of the filming model. The reservations I have about it are of the techniques used and some finesse issues.
> 
> Besides examining what photographic and anecdotal resources surface from time to time I’ve spent a lot of time analyzing DVD captures using more advanced methods of enhancement like image stacking. While only a few effects sequences lend themselves to this, those that do reveal a lot of weathering detail nearly lost on the typical TV. The most obvious case of this is the infamous saucer grid lines... many angry words have blessed the debates over this little detail. What I notice most is the very rough nature of the weathering in places. The first attached image illustrates this pretty well. This is a processed stack of frames taken from The Doomsday Machine on DVD. (If I could pump blu ray into my mac I’d be a much happier camper!)
> 
> The restoration effort seems to have used airbrushing almost exclusively. This lends a very smooth and even effect which doesn’t always match the character of the original application. The weathering on the bottom of the saucer reflects this quite well. Compare the look of the bottom to the original work on the top. The airbrushing is so smooth and the soft edges overlap what seem more like hard-edge transitions on the concentric rings of the original. It ends up looking a bit freehand-sloppy rather than precise and structured.
> 
> The strength of the weathering, contrast ratio or whatever we can call it is an interesting consideration. Again, the final image on a TV was really washed-out, grainy and unsaturated. I’ve seen flash photos of the restored version which look especially bad. After processing to simulate all the abuse a shot from the effects stage would bear (adding grain, reducing contrast, adding some blur, desaturating colors) it looks remarkably like any scene from an episode. See the second attached image. I also lit the nacelle grille for fun.
> 
> Long story short, I don’t hate the restoration. The team did research and collected references (best available over 20 years ago) and went forward from there. Not perfect, but I don’t consider it an abomination. I won’t do mine exactly like it, but I will draw some cues from it. I’ve cross-referenced some “conjectural” details they added and find corroborating evidence in documentation and analysis, so I don’t routinely dismiss anything.


Well done with the enhancements on those images!

Personally, I won't be doing anything that is remotely reminiscent of the EM version.

The only issue I have with the analysis is that (fortunately) the top of the saucer was never altered (excluding the B/C deck and bridge). The extreme contrast to the rest of the ship after restoration makes it obvious (at least to me) that he was heavy-handed with the graffiti cans. Maybe the popularity of Star Wars and that kind of ship detailing influenced him at the time, I don't know.

The other thing is the well-known 'joke' text he used on some of the hatches (I think they are removed now). We have the real text on model decals now, so did he just do bad research, or did he just not care?

But who knows - maybe someone will chime in and say 'I'm building my model to look just like that!' and actually do it.

Until then, the silence speaks volumes.


----------



## Opus Penguin

gman223 said:


> I've had a few canopies with seams right down the middle, sanded them down then used Tamiya polishing compound, stuff works great.


I read different techniques on researching this that say to get really fine sandpaper (800 to 1200 grit) to wet sand it first, then add the Future or whatever polish, then buff it (I do have a dremmel with a buffing disk). I am nervous to do this since I have never done this before, but I figure I can always fall back on purchasing a new part from R2. Steve mentioned just coating it in Future but I don't know if this will be enough without the sanding. The mark on the bridge is a small scuff, like something dragged across it, not a scratch. I am not sure if this makes it more difficult or easier.


----------



## fire91bird

You might want to experiment on some spare clear parts to get a feel for it. If you can replicate the scuff mark on scrap pieces first, you can try different techniques until you're satisfied, then do it on the real piece.


----------



## TrekFX

Interesting thing is how lighting helps or hurts the appearance of the ship today. Some flash photos look atrocious, some look OK, some ambient-light pictures look pretty darn good.

The signage jokes certainly didn't help the credibility factor, unfortunately. I think they would have reconsidered had they known people would call them out on it! One of those "seemed like a good idea at the time" moments I imagine.

People are truly passionate about the Big E, and that carries strong opinions with it. Between what was "real" and what was eventually "seen" is so much a grey area. (is that JN grey or more of a duck-egg shade...?) :hat:

PS: on that Doomsday picture, note especially the weathering on the port nacelle, and where it meets the pylon. Rough, nasty, and implies more interesting detail than really exists when processed and finally seen on the screen. Very ILM-ish.


----------



## J_Indy

TrekFX said:


> Interesting thing is how lighting helps or hurts the appearance of the ship today. Some flash photos look atrocious, some look OK, some ambient-light pictures look pretty darn good.
> 
> The signage jokes certainly didn't help the credibility factor, unfortunately. I think they would have reconsidered had they known people would call them out on it! One of those "seemed like a good idea at the time" moments I imagine.
> 
> People are truly passionate about the Big E, and that carries strong opinions with it. Between what was "real" and what was eventually "seen" is so much a grey area. (is that JN grey or more of a duck-egg shade...?) :hat:


For me the signage issue was a problem in professionalism. You are being paid to do the best job possible, and that deliberate lapse (he could have just made up some sci-fi mumbo jumbo instead) was telling. Even if he didn't care a bit about the model as an icon, that choice was a reflection on him personally and his approach to the task. IMO.


----------



## TrekFX

I don't condone the signage, but I can understand how it can happen.

Ultimately, I think there is useful data to be gleaned from the restored miniature. One just needs to cross-check each aspect for validity/accuracy and against the desired intent of their replica.


----------



## J_Indy

Well, all I can say is that imo, the stark contrast to the folks at Round 2 who brought us this 3ft TOS is night and day.

Those guys are consummate professionals, and they don't even have to call themselves that - it shows in the work.

The tolerances on the hanger bay fit are amazing.

Yes, there are some minor errors - the 3 holes position on the bottom of the saucer and the size of the B/C hatch - but these are errors in manufacturing, not deliberate choices.

And as far as I can see, no jokes in the decal sheet...


----------



## Proper2

J_Indy said:


> The other thing is the well-known 'joke' text he used on some of the hatches (I think they are removed now). We have the real text on model decals now, so did he just do bad research, or did he just not care?


What exactly is the issue with the "hatches text"? I'm not sure I'm familiar with that. Did he replace the real text with jokes?

I have to agree with TrekFX on this issue. I don't hate the restoration. I appreciate the effort. There is evidence that it is based on research and may or may not be accurate, but at least it's debatable. But I do agree that it comes off as heavy-handed to most Trek fans who are used to seeing a washed out grey on TV. So, the question is, do you restore to look like the original studio prop or the image on TV? The bottom line is, I love the ship.


----------



## J_Indy

Proper2 said:


> What exactly is the issue with the "hatches text"? I'm not sure I'm familiar with that. Did he replace the real text with jokes?
> 
> I have to agree with TrekFX on this issue. I don't hate the restoration. I appreciate the effort. There is evidence that it is based on research and may or may not be accurate, but at least it's debatable. But I do agree that it comes off as heavy-handed to most Trek fans who are used to seeing a washed out grey on TV. So, the question is, do you restore to look like the original studio prop or the image on TV? The bottom line is, I love the ship.


Yes, he put stuff like 'Don't Read This Sign' and other such nonsense in as text on hatches.

There are probably people who like the look. There are people who like the JJ Enterprise. To each, their own.

But imagine if the guys at Round 2 said 'Not sure what these signages say. Let's just put some jokes in on the decals.'

That would not be professional. And if I was paying somebody money to do that job, I would fire his a-- pronto.

Whether someone likes it or not would be immaterial to me. Unless you're a high school kid with a can of Krylon, there's no excuse. IMO.

Still, since people have to pay money to buy the PL model, then buy whatever parts, paint, etc they want to put into it, then take the time(which is money) to build it, I think a good vote of how well liked the EM version is would show up in a count of who was building theirs to match it.


----------



## Proper2

J_Indy said:


> Yes, he put stuff like 'Don't Read This Sign' and other such nonsense in as text on hatches.
> 
> There are probably people who like the look. There are people who like the JJ Enterprise. To each, their own.
> 
> But imagine if the guys at Round 2 said 'Not sure what these signages say. Let's just put some jokes in on the decals.'
> 
> That would not be professional. And if I was paying somebody money to do that job, I would fire his a-- pronto.
> 
> Whether someone likes it or not would be immaterial to me. Unless you're a high school kid with a can of Krylon, there's no excuse. IMO.
> 
> Still, since people have to pay money to buy the PL model, then buy whatever parts, paint, etc they want to put into it, then take the time(which is money) to build it, I think a good vote of how well liked the EM version is would show up in a count of who was building theirs to match it.


I don't excuse the text thing. I don't understand why anyone would do that. But that doesn't make or break the restoration for me.

Take look at the pics of Arkons' build in post #918: http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showpost.php?p=4431551&postcount=918


----------



## J_Indy

Proper2 said:


> I don't excuse the text thing. I don't understand why anyone would do that. But that doesn't make or break the restoration for me.
> 
> Take look at the pics of Arkons' build in post #918: http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showpost.php?p=4431551&postcount=918


It looks nice. As his interpretation.

But he wasn't paid to do a restoration job on the original. So a bit of apples and oranges.

Again, for me to believe that the weathering on the EM version is correct, I would have to believe that the top of the saucer - untouched since the end of the series - is the part that is not correct.

Maybe the original prop guys were doing the heavy doses of paint until they got to the top of the saucer and then...ran out of money?....

:tongue:


----------



## Proper2

J_Indy said:


> It looks nice. As his interpretation.
> 
> But he wasn't paid to do a restoration job on the original. So a bit of apples and oranges.



I know, but you said: I think a good vote of how well liked the EM version is would show up in a count of who was building theirs to match it. So, I was just pointing out that Arkons' weathering looks somewhat like EM's, in my view. (By the way, I think he used the decals provided in the kit? I could be wrong.) This is not to say that Arkons necessarily likes EM's restoration—just that his weathering is similar—he would have to speak to that.


----------



## J_Indy

Proper2 said:


> I know, but you said: I think a good vote of how well liked the EM version is would show up in a count of who was building theirs to match it. So, I was just pointing out that Arkons' weathering looks somewhat like EM's, in my view. (By the way, I think he used the decals provided in the kit? I could be wrong.) This is not to say that Arkons necessarily likes EM's restoration—just that his weathering is similar—he would have to speak to that.


That's true.

And I'll say this for him - at least he didn't run out of money when he got to the top of the saucer.


----------



## Opus Penguin

My luck seems to be getting worse. Now one of the flasher LEDs for the saucer navigational lights stopped working. When it is plugged in, it not only does not work, but keeps the other one from working as well. Does not seem to matter which of the two "M" sockets I plug it into, it will not work and prevent the other from working. When I unplug it, the other one works fine. I suspect it is somehow causing a short preventing the other from working so I will now need to replace it. Too bad as it was working fine before. I have emailed R2 to see if I can get it replaced. I don't know enough about electronics to know if I can just splice off this one and put a different one on.

UPDATE: Well, I decided to just send in a replacement form and pay the shipping and handling to see if I can get a new one. Since I scratched my bridge dome, I ordered a replacement with the LED in case I screw up with the Future and buffing.


----------



## Arkons

I've been reading these posts about the way I did the weathering on my build. I've had the pleasure of seeing the 11 footer in person twice. Once before and after the restoration. While I feel it was a treat to see it in its original state, it was somewhat disappointing in that it was plain, wires exposed, cheap lighting in the bussards and in a "just hung there" state. The second time was more exciting. Bussards spinning, all the lights working, it was hanging so low, you could touch it. Yes the weathering was much more extreme but I actually liked it. The only part I didn't like was the darkened rings on the bottom of the saucer. When I began to weather my 1/350, the reason I went heavy on it was because after applying the Round 2 weathering decals to the saucer, they looked surpisingly heavy. Figuring that those decals are quite accurate to the original, I wanted to match that look for the rest of the ship. In looking back at my old photos of the post restoration of the 11 footer, I didn't realize I had made it look so similar. For me personally, I like the heavy weathering. It really gives it character, makes it look more realistic and highlights details that should be highlighted. Plus in my mind, after a 5 year mission, it's going to have some space wear on it. All in all, it comes down to personal taste. If I wanted an exact replica of the 11 footer, I'd have wires sticking out of it, ill fitting panels that were screwed on to hide the holes and have one side not detailed at all. While I agree the restoration was a bit heavy on the paint job, I have to say it looks better now than it did when it was hanging in a less than complimentary fashion from the roof years ago with a layer of dust on it, only showing the non detailed side at the Air and Space Museum.


----------



## Proper2

Arkons said:


> I've been reading these posts about the way I did the weathering on my build. I've had the pleasure of seeing the 11 footer in person twice. Once before and after the restoration. While I feel it was a treat to see it in its original state, it was somewhat disappointing in that it was plain, wires exposed, cheap lighting in the bussards and in a "just hung there" state. The second time was more exciting. Bussards spinning, all the lights working, it was hanging so low, you could touch it. Yes the weathering was much more extreme but I actually liked it. The only part I didn't like was the darkened rings on the bottom of the saucer. When I began to weather my 1/350, the reason I went heavy on it was because after applying the Round 2 weathering decals to the saucer, they looked surpisingly heavy. Figuring that those decals are quite accurate to the original, I wanted to match that look for the rest of the ship. In looking back at my old photos of the post restoration of the 11 footer, I didn't realize I had made it look so similar. For me personally, I like the heavy weathering. It really gives it character, makes it look more realistic and highlights details that should be highlighted. Plus in my mind, after a 5 year mission, it's going to have some space wear on it. All in all, it comes down to personal taste. If I wanted an exact replica of the 11 footer, I'd have wires sticking out of it, ill fitting panels that were screwed on to hide the holes and have one side not detailed at all. While I agree the restoration was a bit heavy on the paint job, I have to say it looks better now than it did when it was hanging in a less than complimentary fashion from the roof years ago with a layer of dust on it, only showing the non detailed side at the Air and Space Museum.


I agree with you, Arkons. The way the studio model is currently exhibited shows much more reverence and can be enjoyed closer up. While I haven't had the pleasure of seeing her in person, I can tell from photographs that the restoration was largely a labor of love—as your build was to you—and I'm glad for it.


----------



## Paulbo

Arkons said:


> ...I've had the pleasure of seeing the 11 footer in person twice. Once before and after the restoration...


That reminds me, I have to get around to getting a slide scanner and convert the photos I took way back when after the E was first brought to the Smithsonian. I'm sick to death of trying to view them on my little previewer (I 86'd my projector ages ago).


----------



## J_Indy

Arkons said:


> I've been reading these posts about the way I did the weathering on my build. I've had the pleasure of seeing the 11 footer in person twice. Once before and after the restoration. While I feel it was a treat to see it in its original state, it was somewhat disappointing in that it was plain, wires exposed, cheap lighting in the bussards and in a "just hung there" state. The second time was more exciting. Bussards spinning, all the lights working, it was hanging so low, you could touch it. Yes the weathering was much more extreme but I actually liked it. The only part I didn't like was the darkened rings on the bottom of the saucer. When I began to weather my 1/350, the reason I went heavy on it was because after applying the Round 2 weathering decals to the saucer, they looked surpisingly heavy. Figuring that those decals are quite accurate to the original, I wanted to match that look for the rest of the ship. In looking back at my old photos of the post restoration of the 11 footer, I didn't realize I had made it look so similar. For me personally, I like the heavy weathering. It really gives it character, makes it look more realistic and highlights details that should be highlighted. Plus in my mind, after a 5 year mission, it's going to have some space wear on it. All in all, it comes down to personal taste. If I wanted an exact replica of the 11 footer, I'd have wires sticking out of it, ill fitting panels that were screwed on to hide the holes and have one side not detailed at all. While I agree the restoration was a bit heavy on the paint job, I have to say it looks better now than it did when it was hanging in a less than complimentary fashion from the roof years ago with a layer of dust on it, only showing the non detailed side at the Air and Space Museum.



Well, as I said - to each, his own - at least when it comes to personal taste.

From a personal taste point of view, I could do a Jackson Pollock on it, but I wouldn't call it a restoration.

Actually it's not the weathering on it that is (to me) so garish on the current Smithsonian display. What I meant to say was the grid patterns and "seams", highlighted like he couldn't control the nozzle of his airbrush.

The "heavy paneling" look really started with Star Wars, but as TOS Star Trek preceded Star Wars, the original had a look all its own, not Star Wars-ified.

The good thing is that with this new R2 model, everyone can have their own personal preference.

Though to truly reproduce the EM version, a person would have to look in the after-market to obtain the joke hatch decals. 

I guess ultimately, my point is that it makes more sense to me that the model should have the style and intensity of the top of the saucer, which is undisturbed from the actual series, reproduced over the rest of the ship, if attempting to reproduce the model 'as it was'. Doing it the reverse would be 'illogical'. 

As for maybe the weathering decals for the R2 model looking dark, like any printing, the weathering decals may suffer from variations in intensity, so maybe some are printed darker and some more subtle.

As far as accuracy for the filming model being wires and an exposed section as it was during filming (a 'restoration') - that would be my preference actually if the look of the externals was maintained as during filming. The reason is that it would be a chance to see it exactly as it was used and the Hollywood magic that made it - even down to the blue chalked support it was mounted on. The 'idealized' version that we remember from the show can be built by the modeler, or bought in some fashion as pre-built.


----------



## J_Indy

Is anyone planning to try and mount some lasers into the hull?

The big problem if it could be done is that some ugly holes would have to be drilled into the saucer, and even if they could be covered with plugs when not using the lasers it might still be nasty.


----------



## SteveR

Could we please ease off on the Miarecki business? This is a "tips and tricks" thread, after all, and Ed's restoration has been discussed at length elsewhere.

Thanks.


----------



## J_Indy

SteveR said:


> Could we please ease off on the Miarecki business? This is a "tips and tricks" thread, after all, and Ed's restoration has been discussed at length elsewhere.
> 
> Thanks.


Good point.

I ordered some brass tubing to see if I can add a bit of strength into the pylons. Even though the plastic seems sturdy enough, I'd still like to see if I can get some metal in there.


----------



## shopper

J_Indy said:


> Is anyone planning to try and mount some lasers into the hull?
> 
> The big problem if it could be done is that some ugly holes would have to be drilled into the saucer, and even if they could be covered with plugs when not using the lasers it might still be nasty.



When I finally get started on my build, I am planning on using 2 blue lasers sequenced with a spare electronics circuit used in the AA/DST TOS Phaser toy for sound and to "pulse" the lasers. Issues to solve include heat disapation from the lasers and how to install in the lower saucer. I have looked closely at the installation done by Simon Mercs on his Refit a few years ago. The problem is the location on the TOS E-based on the classic shot of the Enterprise firing phasers, the beams were projecting from the planatary sensor ring and not the "Phaser Cannon" location. I may try to use fiberoptics to direct the beam to where I would like it. Any thoughts on how to do this out there?


----------



## woof359

J_Indy said:


> Good point.
> 
> I ordered some brass tubing to see if I can add a bit of strength into the pylons. Even though the plastic seems sturdy enough, I'd still like to see if I can get some metal in there.
> 
> I cut up a coat hanger and ran it in the channel for the wiring and glued it into place, I figured it couldn't hurt


----------



## J_Indy

woof359 said:


> J_Indy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good point.
> 
> I ordered some brass tubing to see if I can add a bit of strength into the pylons. Even though the plastic seems sturdy enough, I'd still like to see if I can get some metal in there.
> 
> I cut up a coat hanger and ran it in the channel for the wiring and glued it into place, I figured it couldn't hurt
> 
> 
> 
> I sent for some of this:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/5162-Solid-Br...qid=1359676461&sr=8-1&keywords=brass+rod+1/16
> 
> To keep the space for the wiring, I may have to dremel some channels through the plastic parallel to the wiring channel and run them up along both sides.
> 
> I was thinking, to make a brace between the two pylons, at the stage that solvent glue is used to join the 2 halves of the hull, laying in an arch of epoxy putty stuffed into the locking holes and merged at the top seam of the 2 halves when it is closed. That would basically make a bridge of stone connecting the two pylons and also make a hull seam split less likely.
> 
> Still thinking it through...
Click to expand...


----------



## J_Indy

shopper said:


> When I finally get started on my build, I am planning on using 2 blue lasers sequenced with a spare electronics circuit used in the AA/DST TOS Phaser toy for sound and to "pulse" the lasers. Issues to solve include heat disapation from the lasers and how to install in the lower saucer. I have looked closely at the installation done by Simon Mercs on his Refit a few years ago. The problem is the location on the TOS E-based on the classic shot of the Enterprise firing phasers, the beams were projecting from the planatary sensor ring and not the "Phaser Cannon" location. I may try to use fiberoptics to direct the beam to where I would like it. Any thoughts on how to do this out there?


Putting 2 of these suckers in there would be cool...(minus the BIC lighter container, of course)






But - the problem is marring the look of it with holes to shoot through. 

And then there's the angle. Down like firing on the Doomsday Machine, or forward (much harder I think) like fighting the Klingons?

Making the saucer buck-ugly with holes may not be worth it....


----------



## shopper

J_Indy said:


> Putting 2 of these suckers in there would be cool...(minus the BIC lighter container, of course)
> 
> Amazing Lasers! - Cheapy Lighter Laser Burner! - YouTube
> 
> But - the problem is marring the look of it with holes to shoot through.
> 
> And then there's the angle. Down like firing on the Doomsday Machine, or forward (much harder I think) like fighting the Klingons?
> 
> Making the saucer buck-ugly with holes may not be worth it....



The end result look is part of my struggle too. It's been done with the Refit before, but the phaser banks are located in a better location.


----------



## J_Indy

shopper said:


> The end result look is part of my struggle too. It's been done with the Refit before, but the phaser banks are located in a better location.


The only way around it that I can think of would be pretty complicated, and there's no way I can see how the phasers could fire from the sensor ring. It would have to come from higher up, like the very early episodes did once or twice.

Also I was wondering about the decals. Does something like Microsol help settle them flush? Because unless you sand off the grid lines, the clear parts of the decals will leave a little void along the grid channels underneath. Like a long air bubble. The straight lines may be fixable, but the curved lines look tough.


----------



## Prowler901

A judicious application of Micro-Sol should help the decals lay down into the grid lines.

Tiny mirrors could help in angling the laser to where you need it to exit.


----------



## Opus Penguin

Never used Micro-Sol. Is it pretty easy to use? Is it thick or more watery? Once applied does it dry clear and without residue?


----------



## Trekkriffic

Opus Penguin said:


> Never used Micro-Sol. Is it pretty easy to use? Is it thick or more watery? Once applied does it dry clear and without residue?


It's watery. No residue. You should have a bottle of Micro Set and Micro Sol in your decaling arsenal. The Set is weaker and goes on under and over your decal. Sometimes that's all you need. For decals that need a little extra urging to lay down use the Sol. Once you brush it on you can tamp it down with a Q-tip to get the decal tight; just be gentle or you can tear it. Once it dries the decal should be tight to the surface. I usually wait a day for all the moisture to evaporate before sealing with Glosscote.


----------



## J_Indy

Thanks for the info. Got to get some Micro-Sol.

This is starting to feel like planning a campaign for a battle.

Hope it doesn't turn into one...


----------



## Opus Penguin

Just ordered both the Micro-Sol and Micro-Set. Thanks for the info!


----------



## SteveR

Micro-sol is basically a solvent, rather than a coating. It evaporates. Hope that helps.


----------



## wjplenge

Now if you did want a coating they make that too, Microscle Liquid Decal Film. It's meant to coat decal paper decals made on a printer but it has other uses too.


----------



## Paulbo

A good, cheap alternative to decal solvent/set is distilled white vinegar.


----------



## BARRYZ28

Paulbo said:


> A good, cheap alternative to decal solvent/set is distilled white vinegar.


What he said, stinky but does the same thing.


----------



## J_Indy

*Is there such a thing as "correct" timing on the lights?*

I know in TOS they would speed up the same stock shot of the ship if they needed it to zoom by, but in scenes where the ship is stationary (I just looked at the original "Is There In Truth No Beauty" when the ship is floating in the space/time distortion) and it seems to me the red/green running lights flash about 2 seconds on/2 seconds off.

When I look at the MR vids on YouTube, it seems they chose something like 1 second on/2 seconds off (unless that is user-adjustable. I don't have one).

I don't have a PL light kit yet. Is it timed as the MR, or different?

Correction : In ITITNB it looks more like 2 seconds on/ .5 seconds off...


----------



## J_Indy

*Bussards*

Another interesting thing in those few seconds is that besides the flashing Christmas lights, the overall brightness of the bussards alternates - as though the main red/orange lights do not stay the same brightness (you can see the shadow of the fan blades more distinctly when the overall brightness in the domes dims). At times it appears the smaller colored lights all go out and the main red/orange lights grow brighter before dimming again.


----------



## Proper2

J_Indy said:


> When I look at the MR vids on YouTube, it seems they chose something like 1 second on/2 seconds off (unless that is user-adjustable. I don't have one).
> 
> I don't have a PL light kit yet. Is it timed as the MR, or different?
> 
> Correction : In ITITNB it looks more like 2 seconds on/ .5 seconds off...


MR lights are not user-adjustable. My MR is about 1 second or less on /about 3 seconds off.

I doubt there is a way to establish the the "real" flashing rate of the studio model lights, unless it's documented somewhere. Even when the Enterprise is "floating" the rate of film playback could be sped up or slowed down.


----------



## RossW

I've gone through clips from numerous shows and while there is variation (as others have noted, they'd speed up and/or slow down the shot, sometimes both in the same shot) these are the ones I have:

' The TOS E running lights flash at a base timing of 1-1/2 sec (36 frames) on, 
' 1/2 sec (12 frames) off

' In "The Corbomite Maneuver", the lights were on for 18 frames and off for 20

From what others have said about the MR model:

' 1/2 sec on, 1.5 sec off (reverse of above)

I'm programming my lighting circuit with the above modes and a button will let me toggle between them depending on my mood :hat:


----------



## J_Indy

RossW said:


> I've gone through clips from numerous shows and while there is variation (as others have noted, they'd speed up and/or slow down the shot, sometimes both in the same shot) these are the ones I have:
> 
> ' The TOS E running lights flash at a base timing of 1-1/2 sec (36 frames) on,
> ' 1/2 sec (12 frames) off
> 
> ' In "The Corbomite Maneuver", the lights were on for 18 frames and off for 20
> 
> From what others have said about the MR model:
> 
> ' 1/2 sec on, 1.5 sec off (reverse of above)
> 
> I'm programming my lighting circuit with the above modes and a button will let me toggle between them depending on my mood :hat:


That sounds cool.

Is that timing possible to do with just a 555/556 timer, or does the odd on/off timing require a programmable chip? (I have zero knowledge on that stuff).


----------



## TrekFX

If you used one 555 you'd have to switch between two sets of timing resistors and caps to simultaneously change the cycle rate/duration time.

With a 556 (or 2 555s) you would switch between the outputs of each stand-alone "module."

On paper it sounds comparable...!


----------



## TrekFX

RossW said:


> I've gone through clips from numerous shows and while there is variation (as others have noted, they'd speed up and/or slow down the shot, sometimes both in the same shot) these are the ones I have:
> 
> ' The TOS E running lights flash at a base timing of 1-1/2 sec (36 frames) on,
> ' 1/2 sec (12 frames) off
> 
> ' In "The Corbomite Maneuver", the lights were on for 18 frames and off for 20
> 
> From what others have said about the MR model:
> 
> ' 1/2 sec on, 1.5 sec off (reverse of above)
> 
> I'm programming my lighting circuit with the above modes and a button will let me toggle between them depending on my mood :hat:


Did you determine a good rate for those little flashers at the aft end of engineering?


----------



## mbss1979

*Using paint and Kristal Klear for windows*

:thumbsup:If you want to make the Enterprise look lit without lighting, just mix a little MM Gloss White Acryl to the Kristal Klear.


----------



## woof359

I tried the Krystal clear, worked great but I dont have the steady hand that you need for these small opening, I was glad I was able to do the front 3 port holes though


----------



## J_Indy

TrekFX said:


> If you used one 555 you'd have to switch between two sets of timing resistors and caps to simultaneously change the cycle rate/duration time.
> 
> With a 556 (or 2 555s) you would switch between the outputs of each stand-alone "module."
> 
> On paper it sounds comparable...!



Thx. I might get a mini breadboard or two that would fit inside the hull and try it.

I think I'd like the option to pulse the main bussard lights rather than have them stay at a fixed brightness all the time.

Also, the number of smaller colored lights look to be a lot more than in the lighting kit.


----------



## Proper2

mbss1979 said:


> :thumbsup:If you want to make the Enterprise look lit without lighting, just mix a little MM Gloss White Acryl to the Kristal Klear.


Wow, that's very effective! Nice!


----------



## TrekFX

J_Indy said:


> Thx. I might get a mini breadboard or two that would fit inside the hull and try it.
> 
> I think I'd like the option to pulse the main bussard lights rather than have them stay at a fixed brightness all the time.
> 
> Also, the number of smaller colored lights look to be a lot more than in the lighting kit.


Even though I'm pretty much anchored to a "studio model" approach for my E, the engine lighting is looking like something I'm applying a "hybrid" look to.

I agree that in a lot of shots the 5 "star pattern" amber lights don't appear to be a solid "on." Whether they were if you were standing there looking at it versus looking through the camera finder I couldn't say! But to me they have a non-static look.

The number of lights. I'm not an authority, but I've done a boatload of analysis and applied some logic to the "what would they have done" question.

My conclusion is that there appear to be 10 C7 lights in the dome, in a roughly circular distribution. I base this on:

1) light "flare" shape is typically teardrop shaped, consistant with C7 bulb shape.

2) 10 C7 bulbs will fit in the available space. I tested this with 10 C7 bulbs and a dome of the proper size. They all snuggle in there with spacing consistant with the flare pattern in (1).

3) Light output. C7's are brighter than other "mini" bulbs and photographers always bitch about nothing being bright enough!

4) ease of installation/maintainance. One string, with identical sockets, one-size bulbs for replacement.

5) C7s available in twinkle and always-on varieties.

6) anything else I forgot to mention!

I used 5mm LEDs lathed down to the C7 profile, and stuck simulated sockets on the bottom. I rigged up my prototype to get the LED die itself about where the bulb filament should be.

Note: the first pic has a to-scale C7 superimposed. I wish I could enhance frames to see that clearly inside!!! The third pic (my prototype) has just three LEDs installed at that point; the rhinestones I was testing are out in favor of bits of thin plastic mirror... much better.


----------



## J_Indy

TrekFX said:


> Even though I'm pretty much anchored to a "studio model" approach for my E, the engine lighting is looking like something I'm applying a "hybrid" look to.
> 
> I agree that in a lot of shots the 5 "star pattern" amber lights don't appear to be a solid "on." Whether they were if you were standing there looking at it versus looking through the camera finder I couldn't say! But to me they have a non-static look.
> 
> The number of lights. I'm not an authority, but I've done a boatload of analysis and applied some logic to the "what would they have done" question.
> 
> My conclusion is that there appear to be 10 C7 lights in the dome, in a roughly circular distribution. I base this on:
> 
> 1) light "flare" shape is typically teardrop shaped, consistant with C7 bulb shape.
> 
> 2) 10 C7 bulbs will fit in the available space. I tested this with 10 C7 bulbs and a dome of the proper size. They all snuggle in there with spacing consistant with the flare pattern in (1).
> 
> 3) Light output. C7's are brighter than other "mini" bulbs and photographers always bitch about nothing being bright enough!
> 
> 4) ease of installation/maintainance. One string, with identical sockets, one-size bulbs for replacement.
> 
> 5) C7s available in twinkle and always-on varieties.
> 
> 6) anything else I forgot to mention!
> 
> I used 5mm LEDs lathed down to the C7 profile, and stuck simulated sockets on the bottom. I rigged up my prototype to get the LED die itself about where the bulb filament should be.
> 
> Note: the first pic has a to-scale C7 superimposed. I wish I could enhance frames to see that clearly inside!!! The third pic (my prototype) has just three LEDs installed at that point; the rhinestones I was testing are out in favor of bits of thin plastic mirror... much better.



I would agree that it looks like 10 smaller colored lights on the "Christmas tree".

In the black and white picture of the open bussard after it arrived at the Smithsonian (the one with the broken pieces of mirror showing), there are sockets for the colored lights plainly visible at the 12 o'clock and 1 o'clock positions. Approximating roughly equal spacing, you can locate the next, accounting for the parallax effect of the angle the photo was taken at, counting at least 5 bulb sockets toward the 6 o'clock position.

The opposite side is harder to see, but if they were relatively symmetrical across both sides, that would make 10 (or at least 9) total.


----------



## RossW

TrekFX said:


> Did you determine a good rate for those little flashers at the aft end of engineering?


Twice a second. Since they're move like strobes than flashing running lights, they're only on for a few frames.


----------



## RossW

J_Indy said:


> That sounds cool.
> 
> Is that timing possible to do with just a 555/556 timer, or does the odd on/off timing require a programmable chip? (I have zero knowledge on that stuff).


I'm sure you could do it with 555/556's, but I use a programmable PIC micro controller. It lets me add PWM (pulse width modulation) which basically conrols the brightness of the LED via duty cycle. I 'fade in/out' the flashing to make the LEDs look more like incandescent bulbs.


----------



## Paulbo

RossW said:


> I've gone through clips from numerous shows and while there is variation (as others have noted, they'd speed up and/or slow down the shot, sometimes both in the same shot) these are the ones I have:
> 
> ' The TOS E running lights flash at a base timing of 1-1/2 sec (36 frames) on,
> ' 1/2 sec (12 frames) off
> 
> ' In "The Corbomite Maneuver", the lights were on for 18 frames and off for 20
> 
> From what others have said about the MR model:
> 
> ' 1/2 sec on, 1.5 sec off (reverse of above)
> 
> I'm programming my lighting circuit with the above modes and a button will let me toggle between them depending on my mood :hat:


Just a quick note: film is 24 frames per second, video is 30 (29.97 if you want to be exact, but don't ask me why) frames per second in the USA, Canada and a few other countries and 25 frames per second everywhere else. 

If were working from video then your timing's off.


----------



## Trek Ace

Not so.

Film-based material is "flagged" at 24 fps on DVDs. When you watch it in real time, it plays at 29.97 fps. But, when you "step" through it frame-by-frame, only the "flagged" film frames are shown, and a 24 fps frame count would be accurate.


----------



## RossW

Paulbo said:


> Just a quick note: film is 24 frames per second, video is 30 (29.97 if you want to be exact, but don't ask me why) frames per second in the USA, Canada and a few other countries and 25 frames per second everywhere else.
> 
> If were working from video then your timing's off.


To time both the shot from my ST DVD set and a video of my blinking lights, I'd count the number of 'frames'/steps until the player's timer rolled over to the next second (Using QuickTime or DVD Player on my iMac). Most often, it was 24 'frames'/steps per second but sometimes it was more. Either way, I factored that into the calculation when converting the number of 'frames'/steps the lights were on/off to seconds. For all the clips from the show I watched where I was pretty certain they hadn't sped up/slowed down the shot (like the opening of 'The Tholian Web') they were very close to the 1.5 sec on/0.5 sec off that TrekAce told me ages ago.


----------



## Proper2

Not sure where to post this request, so here goes: I know this is a long shot, but anybody out there who is planning on doing a closed shuttle bay in their build and not utilizing the Galileo inside the hangar, be willing to sell the 4 tiny shuttlecraft parts (and its decals)? Please PM me if interested. I know, I know... go fish...


----------



## mbss1979

*Shuttle Bay*

Not the best shot, but pleased with the result.


----------



## mbss1979

*Painting stages*

The saucer is painted, ready for gloss for decals. Found out you can airbrush testors gloss lacquer over the Tamiya. Secondary hull ready for it's coat. Connection glue joints masked off for max glue adhesion. Using JN Grey. The mix that is close to the plastic color is one part Grey, 1/2 part white. Do have a bridge under there, just used the white dome to protect it from paint spray.


----------



## mbss1979

*Saucer*

Couple more shots of the under side. Never used Tamiya paints before, I'm a MM Enamel guy, but was impressed! Paint airbrush on good!


----------



## Fozzie

mbss1979 said:


> Not the best shot, but pleased with the result.


Very, very nice!


----------



## J_Indy

mbss1979 said:


> Not the best shot, but pleased with the result.


Ha! Where'd you get the little Spock-dude?

Edit - I found some 1/400 and 1/350 figures. I think they said the bridge/shuttle is TARDIS, so maybe the 1/400's might look ok.


----------



## SteveR

mbss1979 said:


> Couple more shots of the under side. Never used Tamiya paints before, I'm a MM Enamel guy, but was impressed! Paint airbrush on good!


Yes, very nice!


----------



## J_Indy

Correction to an earlier post:

I should have said it looks like there are 10 total lights in the bussard INCLUDING the 5 main red/orange lights that make the pentagram when the other colored lights go off.

So....it looks like the kit is actually correct in number.

Dang - those guys are good.


----------



## mbss1979

J_Indy said:


> Ha! Where'd you get the little Spock-dude?
> 
> Edit - I found some 1/400 and 1/350 figures. I think they said the bridge/shuttle is TARDIS, so maybe the 1/400's might look ok.


350 scale figures from Tamiya. Have four in the shuttle bay, 2 blue shirts, one gold, one red. Also the bridge has Kirk, Spock and Scotty.


----------



## mbss1979

Fozzie said:


> Very, very nice!


Thanks


----------



## mbss1979

SteveR said:


> Yes, very nice!


Thanks.


----------



## J_Indy

mbss1979 said:


> 350 scale figures from Tamiya. Have four in the shuttle bay, 2 blue shirts, one gold, one red. Also the bridge has Kirk, Spock and Scotty.


Great - thx!


"...one red..."

Uh-oh. Somebody's falling out of the shuttlebay.... :tongue:


----------



## modelmaker 2001

Are there any aftermarket plans to sell just a shuttlecraft? A second shuttle mounted in the hanger bay or flying alongside Enterprise would be cool.


----------



## Robman007

Quick question.

My light set was missing ALL the wires labeled J on the light kit. Now, I'm putting together the paper work to send to Round 2, but I'd rather not lose 3-4 weeks having to go through the ancient and outdated process of sending in a mail order to get new parts, so I thought about trying to get the wiring myself.

I'm not a electrician (although my dad is competant with wiring), so here is my question...

Does anybody on this site off hand know the PCB connector size that I would need to pick up so that I can easily just replace my 2 missing wires?

Any help would be appriciated! Thanks!

Oh, and thanks for all the tips. I plan on posting some pics of my build as soon as I can. Anybody try using Chrome primer for the inside of the ship to help block and distribute light? I used a black primer followed by chrome, and it's sharp as can be when blocking out lights (able to test parts with my dad's kit. His lighting set came complete.)


----------



## BARRYZ28

Robman007 said:


> Quick question.
> 
> 
> Does anybody on this site off hand know the PCB connector size that I would need to pick up so that I can easily just replace my 2 missing wires?


Micro JST PH 2.0 2-Pin Connector plug Male and Female with Crimps x 50 Sets

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Micro-JST-P...racter_Radio_Control_Toys&hash=item19d882e90c


----------



## Rahn

Robman007 said:


> Does anybody on this site off hand know the PCB connector size that I would need to pick up so that I can easily just replace my 2 missing wires?


I also got some here...

http://www.micromark.com/mini-connector-kit-pkg-of-10,8839.html


----------



## modelmaker 2001

I'd also love to get clear domes to replace the kit domes on the aft ends of the nacelles. Is anyone planning on making such aftermarket parts?


----------



## Robman007

Nice. Thanks for the link.

Very frustrating to have a set of missing wires, especially when one of the wires is keeping me from testing the damn lights to begin with. Frustrating for a $150 product


----------



## SteveR

modelmaker 2001 said:


> I'd also love to get clear domes to replace the kit domes on the aft ends of the nacelles. Is anyone planning on making such aftermarket parts?


Plastruct might have clear hemispherical domes in the right size. http://www.plastruct.com/picat/TUBING_FITTINGS_9.pdf


----------



## modelmaker 2001

Thank you, Steve!


----------



## retheridge

Plastruct 1-inch clear hemispherical domes, half-inch tall, part number VHH-32 are 4.50 per pack of 5. Minimum order $20.00. According to the last price list I have.


----------



## J_Indy

modelmaker 2001 said:


> Are there any aftermarket plans to sell just a shuttlecraft? A second shuttle mounted in the hanger bay or flying alongside Enterprise would be cool.



I was thinking of that too - of maybe cutting out the large door at the back of the shuttlebay and having the Copernicus in profile sitting behind there.

I may try to just make my own.

Of course, I'd have to build a faux bay extension behind it....


----------



## John P

J_Indy said:


> I was thinking of that too - of maybe cutting out the large door at the back of the shuttlebay and having the Copernicus in profile sitting behind there.
> 
> I may try to just make my own.
> 
> Of course, I'd have to build a faux bay extension behind it....


IMHO, that would have the Copernicus sitting inside the glowy red engine space in engineering. I plan on eliminating that door, 'cause I think the conduits going to the nacelles and engineering is on the other side of that wall.


----------



## J_Indy

John P said:


> IMHO, that would have the Copernicus sitting inside the glowy red engine space in engineering. I plan on eliminating that door, 'cause I think the conduits going to the nacelles and engineering is on the other side of that wall.


Well, that depends on where you think Engineering is located. 

Even if it's not like in the Star Trek Writer & Director's Guide/Franz Joseph layout, the refit kit has a very deep shuttle bay/cargo area that looks like it goes into/past the pylons.


----------



## TrekFX

I heard a rumour (or is that I'm *going to* hear a rumour) that during disassembly at refit, they found that the TOS-era shuttlebay length was enabled by a set of VERY fat wires w/ alligator clips looped under it connecting the pylons...

Scotty was impressed. He took them home to use as speaker wires for his stereo.


----------



## J_Indy

TrekFX said:


> I heard a rumour (or is that I'm *going to* hear a rumour) that during disassembly at refit, they found that the TOS-era shuttlebay length was enabled by a set of VERY fat wires w/ alligator clips looped under it connecting the pylons...
> 
> Scotty was impressed. He took them home to use as speaker wires for his stereo.


No wonder he was always afraid the engines would blow apart!! :tongue:

They never did show the back wall of the shuttle bay, so I guess the guys at R2 made a creative decision. The middle door looks big enough to fit a shuttle through.

Also the "back room" wouldn't have to take the entire width of the hull, and just be wide enough to fit between the two pylons. (The 2 side doors are a bit more problematic. Maybe the room is shaped like a "T" with the 2 smaller doors at each end of the crossbar. It could also then double as the Transept of the ship's chapel!!  )

Hey, I'm making this up as I go....


----------



## Skyking918

J
Hey said:


> Just like the TV series!


----------



## J_Indy

Skyking918 said:


> Just like the TV series!


Well, more like "In The Spirit Of...."


----------



## Captain April

Well, if this helps, my version of the internal layout has the tube assembly (which I figure is the main power transfer manifold, sending energy to both the warp engines and the primary hull) well forward of the hangar deck, directly above the red-outlined yellow circle on the keel. That leaves plenty of room for stowing a shuttlecraft or two, although my preference is to have that facility one deck down, accessible via the turntable/elevator in the middle of the flight deck.


----------



## J_Indy

Captain April said:


> Well, if this helps, my version of the internal layout has the tube assembly (which I figure is the main power transfer manifold, sending energy to both the warp engines and the primary hull) well forward of the hangar deck, directly above the red-outlined yellow circle on the keel. That leaves plenty of room for stowing a shuttlecraft or two, although my preference is to have that facility one deck down, accessible via the turntable/elevator in the middle of the flight deck.


I just looked, and that area below the turntable was also where the old Franz Joseph blueprints had them.

Though, that was a "maintenance" area - sort of the "fix it" shop.

So the area behind the big door on the kit can still be the "garage" where they are usually stored when just idle but not broken!! 

In the FJ blueprints there is nothing on the back wall.

That would leave that wall kind of bland - unless I can maybe make some graffiti decals that say "Kirk wuz here! (and Spock too!) "


----------



## Captain April

FJ also had the hangar deck stretching well forward of the nacelle struts and a bowling alley in the fantail, along with all sorts of nonsense, so I put next to no weight on the FJ blueprints. I respect the work he put into them, and how he pretty much got the ball rolling on Star Trek technical stuff, but the usefulness of his material came to an end a long time ago.


----------



## John P

J_Indy said:


> Well, that depends on where you think Engineering is located.
> 
> Even if it's not like in the Star Trek Writer & Director's Guide/Franz Joseph layout, the refit kit has a very deep shuttle bay/cargo area that looks like it goes into/past the pylons.


Ah, but the whole engine/reactor system in the refit is completely different. The 2ndary hull was gutted and the new vertical intermix shaft system was installed on the front of the hull, behind the deflector, with its linear shaft running aft at the top of the hull to the pylons. That opened up the whole aft end of the hull for shuttle and cargo space.


----------



## J_Indy

John P said:


> Ah, but the whole engine/reactor system in the refit is completely different. The 2ndary hull was gutted and the new vertical intermix shaft system was installed on the front of the hull, behind the deflector, with its linear shaft running aft at the top of the hull to the pylons. That opened up the whole aft end of the hull for shuttle and cargo space.


I'm going with the 'T' shaped room.... 

The conduits from the pylons enter the hull, but then turn at a 90 degree angle and run up along the top of the hull toward the deflector dish, leaving space between for a narrower shuttle storage area.

The smaller doors have mostly environmental suits and repair equipment and a taco stand.

It came to me a in dream.......


----------



## Lou Dalmaso

Captain April said:


> FJ also had the hangar deck stretching well forward of the nacelle struts and a bowling alley in the fantail, along with all sorts of nonsense, so I put next to no weight on the FJ blueprints. I respect the work he put into them, and how he pretty much got the ball rolling on Star Trek technical stuff, but the usefulness of his material came to an end a long time ago.


Hey now, don't bag on the bowling alley, it's canon.

the grand presumption that everybody mistakenly makes is that the Enterprise is made of 21rst century materials and therefore subject to the same type of structural requirements. 

I could see a possibiliity that the pylons and warp nacelles simply don't need any more reinforcement than the skin of the ship itself, because the hull plating is just that strong. that and structural integrity fields do the rest. Plus, you know, no gravity pulling on it.

now the sad fact is that our models are made of 21rst century materials and are subject to gravity, hence the beefed up supports and dreaded engine droop.


----------



## J_Indy

Lou Dalmaso said:


> Hey now, don't bag on the bowling alley, it's canon.
> 
> the grand presumption that everybody mistakenly makes is that the Enterprise is made of 21rst century materials and therefore subject to the same type of structural requirements.
> 
> I could see a possibiliity that the pylons and warp nacelles simply don't need any more reinforcement than the skin of the ship itself, because the hull plating is just that strong. that and structural integrity fields do the rest. Plus, you know, no gravity pulling on it.
> 
> now the sad fact is that our models are made of 21rst century materials and are subject to gravity, hence the beefed up supports and dreaded engine droop.


True - the bowling alley was mentioned by Reilly....

To me, the original design of the ship always seemed that Jefferies was cleverly driving home the point that the ship is weightless, floating in space. That's why the pylons appear so slender and the engines offset so much to them - to visually reinforce that point, even subconsciously, every time you look at the ship. Any designs with support struts or flying buttresses holding pieces up would look ridiculous.

As far as 23rd century materials and processes being used - that's why I cringed at the commercial of the 2009 Star Trek movie with the welders welding plates onto the ship. We're not stitching seams together at the nano level by then? For God's sake man - at least use a phaser!!


----------



## Captain April

Since the holographic rec room was established with TAS' "The Practical Joker", I gave up on trying to find a good location for a bowling alley and decided that one of the programs in that early holodeck is a bowling alley, and that _that_ is what Reilly was referring to.


----------



## beeblebrox

A little tip. Decals 11 thru 14 are miss-labeled or the box directions are. Reference photo for correct placement: http://www.modelermagic.com/wordpre...03/kg_star-trek_tos_1701_studio_model-009.jpg

This is mine. Just guessing on the weathering, but it kind of matches the top of the saucer.


----------



## Arkons

That weathering looks really good! I like the way it's turning out. So what was wrong with those decals? I don't have the directions anymore. Were they upside down in the directions? Also according to the instructions when I was doing the decals, the little number markers on the lower hull go from larger to smaller from front to back, but when I've watched the show, they go from smaller to larger front to back. This is with the updated special effects. So which is correct?


----------



## Skyking918

My understanding is they are supposed to represent frame numbers, like those of a capital warship, and if so, should go from smaller at the front to larger at the back.


----------



## beeblebrox

Arkons said:


> That weathering looks really good! I like the way it's turning out. So what was wrong with those decals? ...


The "not yellow" one on the starboard side was switched with one of the forward ones. 



Arkons said:


> Also according to the instructions when I was doing the decals, the little number markers on the lower hull go from larger to smaller from front to back, but when I've watched the show, they go from smaller to larger front to back. This is with the updated special effects. So which is correct?


Several restoration photos show their placement on the starboard side. Lower numbers are forward. I assumed the port side mirrored them. 

http://www.modelermagic.com/?p=8672


----------



## scotpens

Captain April said:


> Since the holographic rec room was established with TAS' "The Practical Joker", I gave up on trying to find a good location for a bowling alley and decided that one of the programs in that early holodeck is a bowling alley, and that _that_ is what Reilly was referring to.


Reilly was hardly in his right mind when he announced "a formal dance in the bowling alley at nineteen hundred hours." I always figured the bowling alley was a figment of his disease-addled imagination.


----------



## TrekFX

scotpens said:


> Reilly was hardly in his right mind when he announced "a formal dance in the bowling alley at nineteen hundred hours." I always figured the bowling alley was a figment of his disease-addled imagination.


After I first tried it, I thought bowling was the product of... oh never mind!

What was the question again?


----------



## J_Indy

Finished these pieces yesterday (for the "garage" behind the big door at the back of the shuttlebay with the taco stands!)

They need some gap filling work (hit them with a mist of whatever was handy to look for major flaws) - but not too much, as they'll be mostly hidden in the background and partly obscured by the Galileo in front anyway.

Slow going. And now that I am over the flu, less boredom time to fill too.


----------



## Lou Dalmaso

scotpens said:


> Reilly was hardly in his right mind when he announced "a formal dance in the bowling alley at nineteen hundred hours." I always figured the bowling alley was a figment of his disease-addled imagination.


No Ice Cream for you


----------



## Prowler901

Nice shuttles Indy! What did you make them out of?


----------



## J_Indy

Prowler901 said:


> Nice shuttles Indy! What did you make them out of?


I'm not dodging your question, but first I need to ask people in general:

Is there a proper etiquette for answering folks asking questions/help?

I'm a (very, very very) casual model guy - I only started looking again after the 1/350 TOS E came out.

But there are some who are very helpful - but also sell things (vendors), and if I answer a question that potentially might take business away from them, is that considered a no-no?

There's helping somebody out - and there's taking food from somebody else's mouth (and as an ultra-casual model guy, I'm not selling anything) - so where do you draw the line?


----------



## J_Indy

Oops - nevermind.

I see that someone has already posted the method in another thread, so the point is moot.

They are cast in resin - you can get a mold putty (Alumilite/Easy Mold) to make the mold and then create the part in pieces. It was something I thought to try after considering opening the big hanger door at the back of the shuttlebay and having other shuttles back there.

The only thing is that the shuttle does not have a perfectly flat side to it, so you will have to cast it in parts like a cabochon and then clean it up. 

FYI - it's real easy. I never resin cast anything in my life before last weekend - still managed to make something decent.

Edit: Actually, I should say as a novice I did it one way - there may be other ways of casting it that are better. Will have to think on it a bit more....


----------



## Arkons

*Several restoration photos show their placement on the starboard side. Lower numbers*

Well, shoot. Guess I got them backwards on my model. I could swear the directions had them going the other way but who knows? Maybe I just read them wrong. Oh well, I'm not going to pick them off and redo it. Most people don't even know they're on there. In fact, I didn't even know they were on there until I watched the show with the updated special effects and they showed close ups of those areas. Sigh.


----------



## Prowler901

Thanks Indy. They look really good for your first time. I've never done any resin casting either. But, those look just about perfect. :thumbsup:


----------



## beeblebrox

Gluing the bits together one at a time. Saucer, neck, secondary hull connected. Going to wait till tomorrow and these have a strong bond before continuing.

I have to say, this beast could stay together without glue and no sag, but..hey, what am I, stupid?


----------



## J_Indy

Prowler901 said:


> Thanks Indy. They look really good for your first time. I've never done any resin casting either. But, those look just about perfect. :thumbsup:


Thx. As I said, imo it's pretty easy (though a bit messy for a first-timer  )

I know R2 made a creative decision to put those doors at the far end of the shuttlebay since we never got to see it on camera. And I know some people think the support of the pylons should be there blocking the area behind the shuttle.

BUT...since we get to make stuff up for that space, my take is - who says it has to be straight lines?:
The pylons don't have to be straight through the secondary hull. If the ship is in profile with the front pointed to the right, then I see no reason the pylons can't be formed like an "L", with the extension bonded to the upper inner surface of the hull (and it doesn't have to be uniform in width with the external part either).

That would make the support of the pylons strong (yes - even weightless in space) - fused to the mass of the secondary hull - leaving room for the storage area behind the shuttlebay...and the side-doors with the taco stands!!


----------



## Prowler901

Excellent. I like the way you think.


----------



## Gary7

J_Indy said:


> Thx. As I said, imo it's pretty easy (though a bit messy for a first-timer  )
> 
> I know R2 made a creative decision to put those doors at the far end of the shuttlebay since we never got to see it on camera. And I know some people think the support of the pylons should be there blocking the area behind the shuttle.
> 
> BUT...since we get to make stuff up for that space, my take is - who says it has to be straight lines?:
> The pylons don't have to be straight through the secondary hull. If the ship is in profile with the front pointed to the right, then I see no reason the pylons can't be formed like an "L", with the extension bonded to the upper inner surface of the hull (and it doesn't have to be uniform in width with the external part either).
> 
> That would make the support of the pylons strong (yes - even weightless in space) - fused to the mass of the secondary hull - leaving room for the storage area behind the shuttlebay...and the side-doors with the taco stands!!


I believe some one made mention that by the 23rd century, building something like this would not be the same as 20th technology. But they sure liked using 20th cent bulbs & buttons & switches. :tongue:


----------



## J_Indy

Gary7 said:


> I believe some one made mention that by the 23rd century, building something like this would not be the same as 20th technology. But they sure liked using 20th cent bulbs & buttons & switches. :tongue:


The 'Retro' look was 'in' in the 23rd century....


----------



## Proper2

J_Indy said:


> Finished these pieces yesterday (for the "garage" behind the big door at the back of the shuttlebay with the taco stands!)
> 
> They need some gap filling work (hit them with a mist of whatever was handy to look for major flaws) - but not too much, as they'll be mostly hidden in the background and partly obscured by the Galileo in front anyway.
> 
> Slow going. And now that I am over the flu, less boredom time to fill too.


Looks good! Where's my fly swatter? Kidding.


----------



## J_Indy

Proper2 said:


> Looks good! Where's my fly swatter? Kidding.


Just think what would have happened if Kirk sneezed on the ship in Requiem For Methuselah! :tongue:


----------



## Richard Baker

J_Indy said:


> Just think what would have happened if Kirk sneezed on the ship in Requiem For Methuselah! :tongue:


 Lots of crewmen scrubbing the hull in space suits after_ that_ mission...


----------



## J_Indy

Richard Baker said:


> Lots of crewmen scrubbing the hull in space suits after_ that_ mission...


Spock: (Leaning in closer to look at the ship) Interesting. What is that light green tinge on the hull?

Kirk: (Wiping his nose with his braided command sleeve) Uh...weathering. Yeah, um....weathering.

Has anybody thought of how to deal with lighting problems after the hull gets sealed up - like putting in a secondary set of lights and then yelling 

"I can give ya auxiliary powah Captain!!"


----------



## Spacecraftfilms

Finding that the lighting plan is really tight around the shuttlebay. Has anyone tried using EL panels for that area? I have some stuff on order to experiment, essentially wrapping one in an arc over the top/sides and one against the forward bulkhead, trimmed to shape. My concerns are: brightness and life-span.


----------



## SteveR

Spacecraftfilms said:


> Finding that the lighting plan is really tight around the shuttlebay.


One solution that works on the refit, is to take advantage of the narrow viewing angle through the bay doors and just use LEDs at the far end of the bay (one for each long clear ceiling light) aimed at the viewer. If the long clear parts are sanded to diffuse the light, we should see a fully-lit part. 

Now, since the TOS bay is shorter, the viewing angle is wider, and the technique might not work with the ceiling. It should be possible to test the effect before assembly, though.


----------



## J_Indy

Spacecraftfilms said:


> Finding that the lighting plan is really tight around the shuttlebay. Has anyone tried using EL panels for that area? I have some stuff on order to experiment, essentially wrapping one in an arc over the top/sides and one against the forward bulkhead, trimmed to shape. My concerns are: brightness and life-span.


You can use Surface Mounted LEDs (SMD).

They are small enough to fit in tight places.


----------



## Hunch

Finaly got done with soldering all of the connections (just cant trust those little strip connecter with THIS model) for the strip leds and some extra lighting I'm doing. Time to move onto glueing the windows in. Since there is not a very snug fit on some of the windows/portholes I'm
thinking of using Future to make up the difference. I figure filling in around the windows will give the model a better effect when lit. We'll see how it works.
Jim


----------



## Hunch

I also would like to add that there are connections on the pcb's that are not used in the kit lighting but you can use these for strip leds (you can get cheap rolls on the internet of different colors, just make sure they are 12 volts.) to add more lighting to your kit.
I'm using a seperate switch to turn on the nacell trench lighting along with the impulse lights, then I have another "main" switch to turn on the production version lighting.
Just check out the boards and you'll find unused connections that clearly state 12 volts on them.


----------



## J_Indy

Hunch said:


> I also would like to add that there are connections on the pcb's that are not used in the kit lighting but you can use these for strip leds (you can get cheap rolls on the internet of different colors, just make sure they are 12 volts.) to add more lighting to your kit.
> I'm using a seperate switch to turn on the nacell trench lighting along with the impulse lights, then I have another "main" switch to turn on the production version lighting.
> Just check out the boards and you'll find unused connections that clearly state 12 volts on them.


Good to know.

There has been a post or two about the lighting acting differently (bussard blinkies I think) after the model is sealed up vs pre-seal tests. That is a bit disquieting, because....who ya gonna call....Model-Busters?


----------



## Skyking918

There's an alternative to the Polar Lights lighting kit just announced:

http://culttvman.com/main/?p=26000

I have no connection with the vendor or the other web site; just passing on the info.


----------



## Spacecraftfilms

I'm interested, has anyone managed to get all the wiring of the polar lights lighting kit arranged among the shuttle bay? And still have the forward bulkhead clear for some light to get through? I'd love to hear how you did it.

I'm just about ready to post some shots of the EL experiment. I'm having to make some trade-offs, though. I'm not sure I'll get any good illumination of the outside windows near the shuttle bay. I'm shooting some LEDs up from the bottom, but it's so tight there, especially after placing the EL that I'm not sure anything will show through. We shall see.

I carved out a trench for the flat LED to go over the shuttle bay to illuminate the shuttle control station and the aft beacon. But there is really NO way to illuminate those three little "stick" lights near the aft end of the secondary hull. That's one of the trade-offs, I guess. They will be there, but not illuminated. The EL result in the shuttle bay is very nice, though.


----------



## Spacecraftfilms

I'm relatively new to the board and have been working on this EL experiment for the shuttle bay. I have photos for you, but can't quite post them yet because I'm new. So this post and the next are purely designed to get me to the point where I can post the photos and details. I hope you won't mind.


----------



## Spacecraftfilms

By the way, I am one of those that can't stand the gridlines. So... I'm not opening that can o' worms, but telling you how I got rid of them. I started with bondo, per suggestion of someone, I believe on this board. That worked ok, but was so fast-setting that I couldn't get the entire saucer done before the rest set up. So I then finished the job with Mr. Dissolved Putty. With several applications and a lot of sanding, the job was done on both sides of the saucer section. I then built a jig and penciled the gridlines back on, knocking it back with another coat of hull color, then added the rust belt with airbrushing Tamiya Desert Yellow, very lightly, with several masks. Once I can post photos I'll show the result. Still more weathering to do, but the surface is smooth and the gridlines are back to where I would like them.


----------



## Spacecraftfilms

So, the EL experiment. I ended up using three small panels, one for the forward bulkhead, and two over the arc. Unfortunately the panels were 2.5 inches square and the length over the entire arc is 3 inches. This is the way I think I'm going to go. All I need to work out is how to get some light to the side windows and how to run the wire to the flat LED for the aft beacon and the shuttle control room. 

Here's an overall straight on look:










A look at the overhead:










The starboard side:










And port:










I am using rosco cinegel material for the color. I drilled out the holes for the red lighting over the pocket doors. It contrasts well with the green lighting under the windows. I used ParaGrafix photo etch for light blocking and detailing. Nice set. The cinegels are cheap. Just get a swatchbook from B&H photo for $2.50 (shipping is more than the product). I also had to color correct the EL sheet so that it wasn't too blue. I did that with orange gels. Now if it will just all fit. I know this section will fit, the problem is to get the wire across the top for the flat LED for the aft beacon and get some light to the side windows, if possible. I'll be using the LEDs already in the light kit to throw some light up the side to see if we can make that happen.


----------



## J_Indy

Looks great! :thumbsup:

Hope you can get it all into the secondary hull without the dreaded "hull gap" problem.

The detail is terrific.


----------



## Ronster

I just broke down and ordered the Tenacontrols light set from CultTVman. I really liked the idea of not needing those noisy little motors. Sooooo, I should have most of a Polar Lights set available soon if anyone is interested...


----------



## Gary7

Spacecraftfilms said:


> By the way, I am one of those that can't stand the gridlines. So... I'm not opening that can o' worms, but telling you how I got rid of them. I started with bondo, per suggestion of someone, I believe on this board. That worked ok, but was so fast-setting that I couldn't get the entire saucer done before the rest set up. So I then finished the job with Mr. Dissolved Putty. With several applications and a lot of sanding, the job was done on both sides of the saucer section. I then built a jig and penciled the gridlines back on, knocking it back with another coat of hull color, then added the rust belt with airbrushing Tamiya Desert Yellow, very lightly, with several masks. Once I can post photos I'll show the result. Still more weathering to do, but the surface is smooth and the gridlines are back to where I would like them.


I have a similar plan. Are you going back with the grid lines just on top?


----------



## SteveR

Nice shots. Any chance you could re-submit them at, say, 800x600?


----------



## John P

Scrolling is fun!
NOT.


----------



## Spacecraftfilms

SteveR said:


> Nice shots. Any chance you could re-submit them at, say, 800x600?


Done. Won't happen again.


----------



## Spacecraftfilms

Smooth hull, with the gridlines penciled back in, then reduced with hull color. They are there, but barely visible - a bit more visible in real life than in photos. 










There is nothing simple about getting rid of the recessed lines, though. It took the bondo application, sanding, Mr. Dissolved Putty back over all the lines, sanding, another application, sanding, then Mr Surfacer, more sanding, a final, finer Mr Surfacer application, and then hull color (finally). Then the pencil lines (done in a simple jig with a compass with extender and a flexible metal ruler).

The next photo is a little out of focus, but gives a sense of the rust belt.










And yes, I am going with the gridlines just on the top.


----------



## Opus Penguin

Nice job!


----------



## J_Indy

Spacecraftfilms said:


> Smooth hull, with the gridlines penciled back in, then reduced with hull color. They are there, but barely visible - a bit more visible in real life than in photos.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is nothing simple about getting rid of the recessed lines, though. It took the bondo application, sanding, Mr. Dissolved Putty back over all the lines, sanding, another application, sanding, then Mr Surfacer, more sanding, a final, finer Mr Surfacer application, and then hull color (finally). Then the pencil lines (done in a simple jig with a compass with extender and a flexible metal ruler).
> 
> The next photo is a little out of focus, but gives a sense of the rust belt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And yes, I am going with the gridlines just on the top.


Thanks for the tips on getting rid of the gridlines! 

As somebody who hasn't built a model in 10 years or so, that is helpful.

Though - based on your description, if you did another, would you bother with the Bondo part at all, or just use the Mr. Dissolved Putty/Surfacer instead? (and do those shrink over time?)


----------



## Spacecraftfilms

When I did the bottom I skipped the bondo and just used Mr. Dissolved Putty. It does shrink a bit, which is why I had to apply twice. Eventually you get there.

I have another kit I'm thinking of doing as the Constellation. I'll just do those lines with Mr. Dissolved Putty. The bondo worked, but was messy and dried so fast. It's also fairly pricy in comparison to the putty.


----------



## Skyking918

Is the "rust ring" included on the weathering decal sheet?


----------



## Spacecraftfilms

I don't think so. I did this one with airbrush and masks.

I did see some rust ring decals available from acreation, though.

http://www.culttvmanshop.com/Classic-1350-Starship-Rust-Ring-decals-from-Acreatiion_p_2514.html

I'm not affiliated with them at all... just providing the link for information.


----------



## starmanmm

Like Ronster... I have also ordered the light kit from Cult put out by Tenacontrols.. wasn't interested in the motor noise was the reason why I ordered it.


----------



## Opus Penguin

Skyking918 said:


> Is the "rust ring" included on the weathering decal sheet?


I have the decals and the rust ring is included. If you want the decsls PM me. I'll let you have them. I don't plan to use them.


----------



## Spacecraftfilms

Oh, yes, the rust ring is on there. I hadn't even looked at them. If anyone needs them I have a set I'm not going to use as well. PM and I'll send them to you.

Looking at the weathering decals it is represented as a rather solid band.


----------



## neps

A question for those "in the know":

What color should the photoetch grilles for the warp engine pylons be painted? I'm talking about photoetch parts numbered 31, which correspond to kit parts numbered 31. I cannot seem to find a reference for this, and want to get it right. Thanks in advance for input!


----------



## beeblebrox

http://www.round2models.com/files/instructions/pol880_paintcorrection.PDF

"Exterior accents" is Testors Medium Gray 1721


----------



## kdaracal

beeblebrox said:


> http://www.round2models.com/files/instructions/pol880_paintcorrection.PDF
> 
> "Exterior accents" is Testors Medium Gray 1721


Are these Testor's colors available in rattle cans?


----------



## SteveR

In rattle cans? Hard to say. Check the site.
http://www.testors.com/category/573120/Spray_Paints

On a different note:

Gridline-filling pre-shading tip: Aves Apoxie sculpt comes in black. 
1. Fill the gridlines with black Aves.
2. Sand smooth. 
3. Spray the hull grey.
4. Stop spraying the grey when the gridlines are just barely visible.

It should work ... I'll probably prime first.


----------



## FyreTigger

SteveR said:


> On a different note:
> 
> Gridline-filling pre-shading tip: Aves Apoxie sculpt comes in black.
> 1. Fill the gridlines with black Aves.
> 2. Sand smooth.
> 3. Spray the hull grey.
> 4. Stop spraying the grey when the gridlines are just barely visible.
> 
> It should work ... I'll probably prime first.


So earlier, someone suggested using a Liquitex competitor as a filler. Does that actually work? Or does the acryllic medium cause any problems (adhering to the styrene, sanding, paint adhering to the acryllic... Whatever).

And if it does work, could one for fine detail like this use plain old acryllic artists paint? In which case, the black acryllic could be used to fill the grid lines, and the cleanup is super easy.

I'm also interested because it (the Liquitex moulding paste) would make an easy filler for things like the B/C deck to saucer seam, and all the pylon/dorsal to saucer/engineering/nacelle seams.


----------



## TrekFX

Solvent-based fillers (using petroleum-based solvents, alcohol, water etc) shrink as they dry. It's just the nature of how they work. Some shrink more than others, and longer it takes the interior of a larger mass to dry (ie the slower the solvent evaporates/outgasses) the more they will continue shrink after initial application and even after they are "dry to the touch" and sandable. The acrylic products are typically water-based. Used in the right context, they're convenient to use and easy to work.

Properly-prepared catalyzed products like epoxy and polyesters (Aves, Miliput, Bondo, Evercoat putties) don't depend on evaporation, so may exhibit some minimal initial shrinkage but usually are pretty dimensionally stable and robust once they achieve full cure (chemical polymerization.) More of a chore to prep and work, they offer their own unique advantages.

The small gaps at the pylon/dorsal joints might be great for an acrylic, since they often retain a bit of flexibility which could be a plus in those areas that might see some stress/flexing. But the paint would have to play along with that or *it* will crack. So an epoxy/polyester would make a great base for keeping your paint stable... but you'd need to make sure your joint doesn't flex enough to crack your filler. The joints on the 1/350 are well-engineered, so you're off to a good start there.

That's how that all works together/against itself!


----------



## RossW

I didn't use Liquitex brand but another one which had some kind of resin filler to make it 'sharp' (i.e. hold it's shape). This worked for me in filling the grid lines and it would work wonderfully with the B/C deck seam. The trick is not to aggressively sand it as you would with automotive/model putty, which means it can take a little longer to get it smooth.


----------



## FyreTigger

Thanks for the very detailed explanations of the benefits of the various fillers. It was very helpful. Now I just have to figure out if I have the guts to actually fill the grid lines.

I do like the idea of filling with black and then stopping painting with faint lines. But that does imply the ability to control paint very well. On the other hand, am I good enough with a compass jig to add the lines back in, in pencil?

Well... I've heard it said that anything that doesn't scare you a little, isn't worth doing.


----------



## Jhjorlando

*Bussard lighting effect*

Has anyone tried foil, or some other reflective surface, on the inside/back side of each fan blade strip (either the Paragraphics brass or other material) together with small bits of mirror (or foil) on the bussard "Christmas tree" lens holder? Seems like this might reflect color back into to the whole assembly as it spins creating a diffused/random effect.


----------



## RossW

Jhjorlando said:


> Has anyone tried foil, or some other reflective surface, on the inside/back side of each fan blade strip (either the Paragraphics brass or other material) together with small bits of mirror (or foil) on the bussard "Christmas tree" lens holder? Seems like this might reflect color back into to the whole assembly as it spins creating a diffused/random effect.


I broke up some small mirrors from Michael's and glued them around the LEDs (I've chopped off the 'towers' since I'm doing my own lighting and the plastic 'bulbs' were too dim for my liking). The problem I had is that the inner spinning dome sits just above the "Christmas tree" lens holder, so you can only really put the mirror bits inside of the lens holders (or where they were). The mirror bits still help, I think.






(The video isn't great because the camera is always trying to adjust focus/exposure, so it makes it look like the amber lights are blinking, when they're not)


----------



## publiusr

Has anyone tried glitter? Perhaps shavings?


----------



## Gary7

publiusr said:


> Has anyone tried glitter? Perhaps shavings?


I had that idea, too. I might try it if I ever get my lazy but up & build the thing.


----------



## Rahn

I had a metallic gift bag left from Christmas and cut a pieces from it.

I also scratch built new backplates to accommodate all large 'bulb' inserts.


----------



## SteveR

Looks great! Has anyone tried crinkling cellophane and gluing it to the inside of the rotating part? (Of course, there would have to be enough clearance in there...)


----------



## RMC

what about using bare metal foil ?


----------



## Prowler901

Rahn said:


> I had a metallic gift bag left from Christmas and cut a pieces from it.
> 
> I also scratch built new backplates to accommodate all large 'bulb' inserts


That looks very promising. Lot's of reflectivity at different angles. Plus you get the cool prismatic effect. Would love to see some video of it when you have the motor and fan dome installed.


----------



## Jhjorlando

That actually looks great. What/How are you doing you're own lighting for the bussards?


----------



## Jhjorlando

Can't wait to see the final effect. How did you make the "all large bulbs" holder?


----------



## Rahn

(This is an edited excerpt from my thread on another forum. I’ve been thinking about migrating it over here, as well)

I picked up some Evergreen styrene sheet and tube.

The original part disc is 1.9mm thick. I had a choice of Evergreen sheet at either 1.5mm or 2mm.

Even though the 2mm is closer, I went with the 1.5mm. I know the outer dome seats in against this part, so I figure thinner better than thicker. I could sand 0.1 off the 2mm, but why go through the extra effort.

I also got some 3/16” and 9/32” tube stock and cut the 3/16” into 20 9mm lengths for the lights and 2 of the 9/32” for the centers.










I drew out a pattern using CorelDraw and printed it out.

I taped three sheets of the Evergreen sheet together with the pattern on top.

I started with a pin vise and a large sewing needle to poke holes at the centering intersections of each hole to mark them on the styrene. Then I went to a small bit that I turned by hand to make the first pilot holes.










Next, I used my Dremel drill press and enlarged the holes to 1/8”.










The final holes need to be 9/32” for the center and 3/16 for the lights. These bits won’t fit my Dremel press.

So, I went ahead and drilled out the holes with my hand drill.










I put some scrap tube in a few holes to hold the layers together and give me something to hold on to.

I put a sanding drum on my Dremel press and worked the parts around and around until I got the right diameter.










I put in the tubes and ran some liquid glue around each tube. I had to open up the top of each tube with a 3.5mm bit to accept the plastic ‘bulbs’.










As for lighting the Bussards, it is with the PL light kit.

I am moding some of the lighting, but the Bussard lights are stock.


----------



## Prowler901

Nice work Rahn. :thumbsup: Thanks for sharing your work here. You approached this like a Machinist would. They look perfect.


----------



## Rahn

Prowler901 said:


> Nice work Rahn. :thumbsup: Thanks for sharing your work here. You approached this like a Machinist would. They look perfect.


Thanks. I'm just wingin' it.

I haven't built anything in over 20 years, and never much more than just 'out of the box' with a (hopefully) decent paint job.

Its being a learning experience to get it where I want it to be.


----------



## Jhjorlando

Rahn said:


> Thanks. I'm just wingin' it.
> 
> I haven't built anything in over 20 years, and never much more than just 'out of the box' with a (hopefully) decent paint job.
> 
> Its being a learning experience to get it where I want it to be.


That's an awesome job making those. This is my first kit in about 30 years, so I too am just getting back into the groove of modeling. I've never built a lighted kit before. Can't wait to see your final effect!


----------



## Robman007

I've tried to find in this thread if the shuttle hanger fit has any tips and was not successfull, but I'm wondering if anyone has any tips/tricks/pictures on the best way to get that Hanger into the secondary hull when the wires are attached. I'm having issues with the square light wire causing issues with sealing the two halves together.


----------



## kdaracal

I keep "starting" mine. I've basically got most of it washed. I left a few parts in too hot of water and warped some thinner pieces. Nothing a hairdryer can't remedy. 

I'm currently waiting on the Aztek Dummy paint mask set which should arrive today. It includes a "schematic" of the R2 Light Kit layout. It should make the light placement much easier. 

My big fantasy is to get the thing built, with lights. Painting the major sections as I go. My preference is painting after assembly.Hence the window masks. Lou's mask sets haven't let me down yet......... 

Once I _*really*_ start, I'll chronicle it on a new thread.


----------



## Opus Penguin

Wish I had thought of your idea Rahn. One thing I am still not quite happy about on mine is that the smaller "bulbs" are not as easily seen. Your method makes them more prominent.


----------



## FyreTigger

Rahn said:


>


I was looking at the kit plate last evening, along with the kit Bussard board. The LEDs are of a common size. The holes in the back of the plate are therefore of a common size.

It seems like an easy solution for us less skilled craftsmen is to just "lop off" the tops of the taller small light spires, and then if necessary drill the holes out to widen them.

Am I missing something?


----------



## Trekkriffic

Got me a tube of *Perfect Plastic Putty *at my LHS this week...










made by Deluxe Materials in the UK. It's a water based, very fine surface putty designed for plastic models with no shrinkage, good adhesion, and sandability (or so the instructions say). 

Went on Youtube and watched the video:






Read a few reviews and they gave it high marks. Sounds like the perfect thing to fill those gridlines.

Just curious if anyone here has tried the stuff.


----------



## Rahn

FyreTigger said:


> It seems like an easy solution for us less skilled craftsmen is to just "lop off" the tops of the taller small light spires, and then if necessary drill the holes out to widen them.
> 
> Am I missing something?


I had considered that. The problem was that by the time I took off enough of the taller, narrow ones to open them wide enough for the inserts, they would be so short that the LEDs would stick out and there was no space to insert the 'bulbs'.


----------



## FyreTigger

Rahn said:


> I had considered that. The problem was that by the time I took off enough of the taller, narrow ones to open them wide enough for the inserts, they would be so short that the LEDs would stick out and there was no space to insert the 'bulbs'.


Ah! I see! The pylon shape for the small bulbs is such that they become stubby if you do that. 

I did miss something!


----------



## John F

Robman007 said:


> I've tried to find in this thread if the shuttle hanger fit has any tips and was not successfull, but I'm wondering if anyone has any tips/tricks/pictures on the best way to get that Hanger into the secondary hull when the wires are attached. I'm having issues with the square light wire causing issues with sealing the two halves together.


 
I used a half round file to make the channel for the wires a little bigger.
also, if you haven't done it already, remove the center portion of clear part 27 the lighting kit instructions show you what to remove


----------



## Rahn

Robman007 said:


> I've tried to find in this thread if the shuttle hanger fit has any tips and was not successfull, but I'm wondering if anyone has any tips/tricks/pictures on the best way to get that Hanger into the secondary hull when the wires are attached. I'm having issues with the square light wire causing issues with sealing the two halves together.


I did the same. Used a small file to deepen an widen the trench.


----------



## ffejG

Rahn said:


> I had considered that. The problem was that by the time I took off enough of the taller, narrow ones to open them wide enough for the inserts, they would be so short that the LEDs would stick out and there was no space to insert the 'bulbs'.


OK, but why not completely lop off the smaller stand-offs and drill these out for the replacement tube material. That way you wouldn't need to make a complete replacement part and the original part also has the proper spacing already laid out for you. Would that work?

BTW, I really like your modification here and saved off your post as a nice how-to doc.


----------



## Rahn

ffejG said:


> OK, but why not completely lop off the smaller stand-offs and drill these out for the replacement tube material. That way you wouldn't need to make a complete replacement part and the original part also has the proper spacing already laid out for you. Would that work?


Yes (Doh!) In hindsight, that definitely would have worked.

But, for me, not yet knowing if the mod would give me what I wanted, I would not want to risk destroying the original part.

If I ever do it again, that will be the way to do it.

See... suggestions like that are why we come here.

Thank you.


----------



## FyreTigger

Rahn said:


> I had a metallic gift bag left from Christmas and cut a pieces from it.
> 
> I also scratch built new backplates to accommodate all large 'bulb' inserts.


Any chance of seeing video of this puppy in action?


----------



## Trekkriffic

FyreTigger said:


> Any chance of seeing video of this puppy in action?


Yeah. I might go this way myself if it looks good.


----------



## Proper2

Just curious, I haven't seen anybody "plug up" that "lighted porthole" on the top of the main hull near the front. Has anybody done that or is anybody planning on doing that?


----------



## Opus Penguin

Not me, since it is supposed to be there.


----------



## Proper2

Opus Penguin said:


> Not me, since it is supposed to be there.


Well actually no, I don't think it is supposed to be lit. This removable round "access hatch" was added on the 11-footer after the first season in order to access electrical wiring, but it was never lit. I don't know how or why this came to be lit. It may have to do with the fact that the Master Replicas model had it lit by mistake. But it's really an inaccuracy.


----------



## Opus Penguin

I'm going off of Gary Kerr's research. This has been discussed in depth before, and even discussed specifically in the article by Gary in Volume #28 of Sci-Fi Fantasy Modeler. Whether it was meant to be there or not, it was lit up, though not brightly. I guess it is a matter of preference on what you wish. I am having it since it was seen in the show and does exist in the studio model.


----------



## Proper2

Opus Penguin said:


> I'm going off of Gary Kerr's research. This has been discussed in depth before, and even discussed specifically in the article by Gary in Volume #28 of Sci-Fi Fantasy Modeler. Whether it was meant to be there or not, it was lit up, though not brightly. I guess it is a matter of preference on what you wish. I am having it since it was seen in the show and does exist in the studio model.


I don't have access to that article. But let me know if you find it showing lit anywhere, on the show or the studio model. I'd like to see pics or screen captures. I don't think it was, though.


----------



## Opus Penguin

Best I can show looking quickly is here:

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=380407&page=3

Post #38 shows a picture where you can see the bow light very slightly. Per Gary in his article: "Some fans denied the light ever existed because they couldn't see it on some grainy screen caps. A few continued to deny its existence even after they were shown photos of the light and despite the fact that Matt Jeffries' blueprints of the Enterprise include the bow light." He goes on to explain the reason for it by saying, "An access hole, just under an inch in diameter, was bored into the upper saucer above the three lighted circles, and the hole was covered with a 1" plastic disk that was made from the same frosted plastic as the three rectangular access openings" (Source: Kerr, Gary. (2013). The Enterprise and Me. Sci-Fi & Fantasy Modeller #28).

I know he also stated the light in there was meant to help light the three circles, and he believed the light moved during production making it look dimmer on top. Also, the weathering covered half the disk making it even dimmer. The question is whether this was meant to be lit or not. With it being a plastic disk, I would assume so.


----------



## Fozzie

Proper2 said:


> Just curious, I haven't seen anybody "plug up" that "lighted porthole" on the top of the main hull near the front. Has anybody done that or is anybody planning on doing that?


I am painting it hull color.


----------



## Proper2

Opus Penguin said:


> Best I can show looking quickly is here:
> 
> http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=380407&page=3
> 
> Post #38 shows a picture where you can barely see the bow light very slightly. Per Gary in his article: "Some fans denied the light ever existed because they couldn't see it on some grainy screen caps. A few continued to deny its existence even after they were shown photos of the light and despite the fact that Matt Jeffries' blueprints of the Enterprise include the bow light." He goes on to explain the reason for it by saying, "An access hole, just under an inch in diameter, was bored into the upper saucer above the three lighted circles, and the hole was covered with a 1" plastic disk that was made from the same frosted plastic as the three rectangular access openings" (Source: Kerr, Gary. (2013). The Enterprise and Me. Sci-Fi & Fantasy Modeller #28).
> 
> I know he also stated the light in there was meant to help light the three circles, and he believed the light moved during production making it look dimmer on top. Also, the weathering covered half the disk making it even dimmer. The question is whether this was meant to be lit or not. With it being a plastic disk, I would assume so.



I see a barely visible shape of a circle. In no other picture have I noticed this bow "light." In fact, the shadow created by the whole bridge assembly in this photo indicates that that same light source creates a shadow on the right side of the circle where the hatch appears to be slightly below the level of the saucer surface, thus enhancing the suggestion of the circle being a lighter color. Look how bright the rectangle to the left that is is shadow is. This is how bright the circle would be if it were lit because it too is in shadow. 

That the circle may have been made of the same plastic material as the lit hatches is quite possible, but it doesn't necessarily mean it was meant to be as brightly lit as the rectangles, or lit at all. That may have been the usable material at hand at that time and place to cover the hole. Many things were done on the fly during filming and right before filming. I think if this hatch was meant to be lit it would be much more evident in all the other pictures and TV scenes. But this is not the case! So, it's hard for me to believe that it's supposed to be a lit circle just like the rectangles. Even if part of this plug was covered by weathering that would be futher indication that it was never meant to be seen as a light. 

Nevertheless, I guess ultimately each individual will choose to see it how he/she wants to.


----------



## Captain April

If it was supposed to be lit, it would be lit. Since no extra effort was made to make it light up, especially since there was a light source *RIGHT THERE!* then the only logical conclusion is that it wasn't intended to be lit. Painting over it with weathering only adds to that conclusion.


----------



## Proper2

Captain April said:


> If it was supposed to be lit, it would be lit. Since no extra effort was made to make it light up, especially since there was a light source *RIGHT THERE!* then the only logical conclusion is that it wasn't intended to be lit. Painting over it with weathering only adds to that conclusion.


Well, yeah. I mean for heaven's sake, just look at the 2nd pic on post #31 here: http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=380407&page=3



Opus Penguin said:


> Gary in his article: "Some fans denied the light ever existed because they couldn't see it on some grainy screen caps. A few continued to deny its existence even after they were shown photos of the light and despite the fact that Matt Jeffries' blueprints of the Enterprise include the bow light."


C'mon, Gary! I know what I see, grainy photos or no grainy photos. I've seen plenty of both. Guess what, no light! And just because Jefferies' blueprints showed a bow light doesn't mean it was executed in the shop. 

So, I still don't get why both MR and PL have that as a lighted panel. Maybe just 'cause it looks cooler that way. Oh, wait, maybe it was because Kerr was hired as a consultant for the design? AND it still looks cooler?


----------



## beeblebrox

I say, if someone thinks it is lit, show me a screen cap. "I'm laughing at the superior intellect." No, seriously, I'll scrape paint off if it's really there.


----------



## SteveR

Proper2 said:


> So, I still don't get why both MR and PL have that as a lighted panel. Maybe just 'cause it looks cooler that way.


Well, they gave us the option to light up the nacelles, and some people are doing it. (shrug)


----------



## Proper2

beeblebrox said:


> I say, if someone thinks it is lit, show me a screen cap. "I'm laughing at the superior intellect." No, seriously, I'll scrape paint off if it's really there.


Exactly. 




SteveR said:


> Well, they gave us the option to light up the nacelles, and some people are doing it. (shrug)


Yeah, I'm sorry but I don't get that either. I suppose that was in Jefferies' schematics, too? Oh well, to each his own model. Me just likes true-to-studio-model, true-to-TOS. [shrug]


----------



## SteveR

You've come a little late to the discussion about those things.  Yes, to each his own, and I'm going to try for the studio look. As for that little thing on the dish, it never occurred to me that it existed, but then again, I never knew about the teal bit on the dorsal connector, and now I see it all the time. Hm. I'll look at the shots and decide.


----------



## Proper2

SteveR said:


> You've come a little late to the discussion about those things.  Yes, to each his own, and I'm going to try for the studio look. As for that little thing on the dish, it never occurred to me that it existed, but then again, I never knew about the teal bit on the dorsal connector, and now I see it all the time. Hm. I'll look at the shots and decide.


Yeah, I don't mind a little bit of to-each-his-own, but what I don't like is someone peeing on the studio upper saucer and telling me it's raining.


----------



## John P

Don't forget Gary has actually handled, measured, disassembled and closely examined the studio model, and none of us have.

I'll take his word for it over anybody who hasn't.

So it was a clear frosted disk made as a cover to access the bulbs for the three bow lights. There was SOME light spill that gave it a tiny bit of a glow that was difficult or impossible to see on screen. It was NOT painted hull color, but there WAS a streak of weathering over part of it.

I'd say that gives everyone leeway to interpret the intent against the result however they wish, and build the ship any way they think they should.


----------



## Gary7

*The hole is there*

This shot of the early restore of the 11' model clearly has the hole. But, was it lit is the question.


----------



## TrekFX

Seems pretty clear to me (phrase only used for pun purposes!)


----------



## TrekFX

Now that today's (first) pun is dispensed with...

That picture put together with the construction detail in the previous seems to tell a story. It allows a lot of apparently contradictory theories to all live happily together.

What did you see?



PS: that's a production-era photo of the 11-foot model, so let's not blame Ed for the weathering or other inaccuracies.


----------



## Opus Penguin

Proper2 said:


> Yeah, I don't mind a little bit of to-each-his-own, but what I don't like is someone peeing on the studio upper saucer and telling me it's raining.


Sorry if it seemed I came across that way. I was just trying to provide the proof you asked for, not dictate how your model should be. It comes down to whatever you want to do to your model is your choice. Me, I plan to have it lit since the references I read indicate it was, whether intentionally or not. There are many interpretations on this model which I think is great; that it leaves our imaginations open to create what we remember seeing in the show.


----------



## Opus Penguin

TrekFX said:


> Seems pretty clear to me (phrase only used for pun purposes!)


That was the picture I was looking for. Thanks TrekFX.


----------



## SteveR

TrekFX said:


> PS: that's a production-era photo of the 11-foot model, so let's not blame Ed for the weathering or other inaccuracies.


... but we can blame him for his overenthusiastic gridlines, since we only see tiny, thin lines in that shot. Remember, his paint job isn't over-weathered, it's over-_gridded_.


----------



## Proper2

Gary7 said:


> But, was it lit is the question.


Exactly. There is no denial that there was a "plug" there. But it doesn't look like it was lit in any pics I've seen.


----------



## TrekFX

*deleted*


----------



## J_Indy

I'm going to be filling the gridlines, and perhaps penciling the top saucer only with a light scribe.

The issue with the heavy-gridlines for me is not just what EM may have speculated, but on his approach as well.

I did not know he had altered the tip of the "linear accelerator" on the top of the saucer until reading the "therpf" page. This is perhaps a small thing, but I believe indicative of his mindset. (Of course, I then had to check the Round 2 kit, and it is the correct shape. Are those guys good, or what?  )

The bigger issue for me is with the signage. Jokes aside, the painting behind the transparent portions was visibly different than the surrounding paint from the previous "restoration". This would suggest to anyone with a cognitive thought that the prior "restorers" painted around the existing labels.

To arbitrarily decide that they were not original and replace them (with jokes, no less) makes his entire decision process highly suspect IMO, I wouldn't trust anything he did because his approach has been verifiably demonstrated to be highly flawed.

Just IMO. 

As a side note, I find it ironic that, as comical as the first "restoration" was, someone actually cared enough to not obliterate the text and chose what he/she thought was the lesser of two evils - painting around them.

If EM really cared, he could have stripped off some of the prior restoration paint to see if the underlying matched the color at the decals to confirm that they were original. How hard would that be?


----------



## Proper2

TrekFX said:


> That picture put together with the construction detail in the previous seems to tell a story. It allows a lot of apparently contradictory theories to all live happily together.


Can you please direct me to where you got that pic? Thanks.


----------



## Gary7

Proper2 said:


> Exactly. There is no denial that there was a "plug" there. But it doesn't look like it was lit in any pics I've seen.


The PL Light kit instructions say "To match filming miniature, cover part #107 with a thin coat of hull paint to partially block light." So, even they are not sure, either.


----------



## TrekFX

Proper2 said:


> Can you please direct me to where you got that pic? Thanks.


No idea at all!


----------



## starseeker

As far as I'm aware, there was never a top bow light on either pilot version. On the production version, there was at least some period of time when there was no bow light. By the time it reached the Smithsonian, there was a hole in that location. Possibly it was meant to be a new light and at some point a light was added. There is also the legend that it was a hole drilled into the hull to allow access to the three front rim lights. Note how they changed as the series progressed. According to legend, the plug was pushed or slipped deeply into the hull at some point, deeply enough that some light leaked onto it from the rim bulbs. That it was a plug also explains why it is painted and that also explains why it is lit. And then at some point before the Smithsonian, the plug was lost. Note: on the Smithsonian photos, the restorer was not allowed to alter the top surface of the saucer, so there are decent photos for painting reference, too. Given that for 2 versions of the E, and the 33", and at least some period of the production version's life, there was no light there, why it appears on Mr. Jeffrie's drawings is a real mystery.


----------



## starseeker

Here are a couple other shots, from Mr. McCuller's amazing, much-missed IDIC Page:


----------



## Proper2

starseeker said:


> As far as I'm aware, there was never a top bow light on either pilot version. On the production version, there was at least some period of time when there was no bow light. By the time it reached the Smithsonian, there was a hole in that location. Whether it was meant to be a new light and at some point a light was added, or whether the legend of a lost plug for an access hole is true (or the plug being pushed into the hole too deeply, allowing light to escape), we'll probably never know. Note on the Smithsonian photos, the restorer was not allowed to alter the top surface of the saucer, so there are decent photos for painting reference, too. Given that for 2 versions of the E, and the 33", and at least some period of the production version's life, there was no light there, why it appears on Mr. Jeffrie's drawings is a real mystery.



Thanks for the pics! If I ever proceed with a build of this I will opt to paint that man-hole cover the hull color, a la: http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/attachment.php?attachmentid=170645&d=1362237787


----------



## mach7

According to the Gary in Sci-Fi & Fantasy, The light IS there, just as it is depicted on the PL model. It was lit, but indirectly, from the lights used to light the 3 bow lights. A structural member blocked some of the light.

So the light WAS there, but lit dimly.

I am unaware of any shot that made on air that it is clearly visible.

I believe it had weathering painted over at least part of it.

Those are the facts.

It seems to me that you could build your kit with the light, with the light weathered, with the light dimmed, or with the light painted over with hull color and be accurate.

I look forward to seeing what everyone decides. As of now, I'm leaning towards dimming mine with some clear smoke on the backside.


----------



## Proper2

mach7 said:


> So the light WAS there, but lit dimly.
> 
> I am unaware of any shot that made on air that it is clearly visible.
> 
> I believe it had weathering painted over at least part of it.
> 
> Those are the facts.


I'm not aware of any film footage where the light is AT ALL visible. At any rate, it would be interesting to see what each modeler decided to do with this.


----------



## mach7

Proper2 said:


> I'm not aware of any film footage where the light is AT ALL visible. At any rate, it would be interesting to see what each modeler decided to do with this.



Same here, but with all the post production it is likely it was washed out.


----------



## ClubTepes

FyreTigger said:


> I was looking at the kit plate last evening, along with the kit Bussard board. The LEDs are of a common size. The holes in the back of the plate are therefore of a common size.
> 
> It seems like an easy solution for us less skilled craftsmen is to just "lop off" the tops of the taller small light spires, and then if necessary drill the holes out to widen them.
> 
> Am I missing something?


I would say just lop off the whole post, if thats the route you want to take.
Add the styrene tube. Done.
Pretty simple.


----------



## ClubTepes

Why are people arguing about wether the bow light was lit, not lit, intended to be lit etc.

Its a silly and pointless argument to speculate as to the 'intention' of the light in question.

This is supposed to be a tips and tricks thread, NOT a debate about what was 'Intended' on a particular detail and I don't want to see this thread shut down because some people feel that they have to prove that they are 'right'.

We know it is there, we know it was a translucent material.
We know it WASN'T painted over with hull color.

Based on that, the part was made clear, (NOT BECAUSE IT WAS COOL) giving the modeler the choice to do what they want.

Granted, perhaps the nacelle grills we did because it was 'cool', but it was done because of the evidence and information at hand. And may I point out that there are a number of modelers lighting up this feature of the kit.

JohnP's statement says it best "Its a model of the Enterprise, Not a model of the model of the Enterprise".

For those who feel the need to duplicate the studio model as closely as possible...... more power to you.

For those who want to build the Enterprise as YOU think it should look....... more power to you.

We tried to make a model for everyone, not just someone.


----------



## publiusr

And you did a fine job too.


With flexible screens in the near future, you may wish to wait. A domed screen may take the place of a nacelle cap...

Maybe fiber optics attached to a LED or a laser to bounce off glitter would cause the small dots of white light in the nacelle caps...


----------



## RedShirt36

Hi, first time poster here, and glad I found this thread! Lots of great advice here. I'm building the kit with the Polar Lights electronics and detail kits. A wonderful job creating these kits and my complements to them. Well worth every penny and I've been having a great time.

So far, my build is going very well, but as I get ready to close up the primary hull, I'm trying to figure out if there are any techniques to get the navigation lights on the top of the primary hull brighter. With the provided red and green lenses the lighting is barely visible from the top and not at all from the side. I thought about painting the clear parts with a light coat of clear red/green paint to see if they conduct the light any better, but even when clear they don't light up very well. I've got the LEDs placed with the light source directly under the holes, so they are getting as direct a light as possible, as far as I can tell. The white nav lights on the bottom light very well.

Any suggestions are welcomed and appreciated. Thanks in advance.


----------



## beeblebrox

Unfortunately, I didn't notice how dim they were until after it was sealed up and painted. I popped the red and green ones off and drilled an opening just a bit smaller than the domes. This lit them up a little more. Maybe the LED's are aimed more toward the lower white ones?


----------



## Proper2

ClubTepes said:


> JohnP's statement says it best "Its a model of the Enterprise, Not a model of the model of the Enterprise".


But that's not true. It's not even debatable because it depends on what kind of model you want.



ClubTepes said:


> For those who feel the need to duplicate the studio model as closely as possible...... more power to you.
> 
> For those who want to build the Enterprise as YOU think it should look....... more power to you.


That's exactly right. And I would be interested in duplicating the studio model as it was lit for filming primarily. Thus I posed the question because I would want to be accurate to the studio model and was surprised that most pics of completed models show a brightly lit circle where I thought none should be. Most people seem to be lighting it and wanted to know why and if anyone else thought it more accurate not to light it, whether it's a frosted piece of plastic left unpainted or whether it was painted the hull grey. I could have created a whole new thread to discuss this detail but I felt that that would not be necessary.


----------



## Rahn

FyreTigger said:


> Any chance of seeing video of this puppy in action?


I tried shooting some video (click the pic). All I have to work with is a cell phone and a small digital camera. Neither lend much in the area of exposure control.

The video has more hot spots and saturated color than in reality.


----------



## Paulbo

RedShirt36 said:


> ...With the provided red and green lenses the lighting is barely visible from the top and not at all from the side. I thought about painting the clear parts with a light coat of clear red/green paint to see if they conduct the light any better, but even when clear they don't light up very well...


I don't have my light kit yet (it's in the mail ... I hope), but I think this might work: hit the outside AND inside of the clear parts with dull coat. This will capture the light hitting the parts and scatter it so that it's more visible.


----------



## FyreTigger

ClubTepes said:


> I would say just lop off the whole post, if thats the route you want to take.
> Add the styrene tube. Done.
> Pretty simple.


That seems like the way to go. But I'm going to do a bunch of experimenting before I commit. I may just stick with the PL Design.

I'm also kind of thinking that the color bulbs sit too low. Fortunately, the model tolerances are so tight, it's easy to stick the bulbs just barely into the posts, so they ride higher.

The other thing I want try is using sheet styrene and pin-striping tape to make a square or pentagonal mirror assembly tube to attach to the fan upper part of the spindle of the fan blade dome. In theory, it should create moving kicks of light of from the bulbs. I'm not simply wrapping the spindle in the chrome as the light kick off a cylinder is vary narrow.


----------



## BARRYZ28

RedShirt36 said:


> So far, my build is going very well, but as I get ready to close up the primary hull, I'm trying to figure out if there are any techniques to get the navigation lights on the top of the primary hull brighter. With the provided red and green lenses the lighting is barely visible from the top and not at all from the side. I thought about painting the clear parts with a light coat of clear red/green paint to see if they conduct the light any better, but even when clear they don't light up very well. I've got the LEDs placed with the light source directly under the holes, so they are getting as direct a light as possible, as far as I can tell. The white nav lights on the bottom light very well.
> 
> Any suggestions are welcomed and appreciated. Thanks in advance.


I was unhappy with this feature as well and decided to try a few things.
First I soldered two flattop 3 mm led's together, one pointing down and one pointing up.
This worked ok for the bottom but not the top Nav light.
The top Nav part is good size round but the locator pin is quite small and doesn't lend itself to lighting very well.
I though, why not use a white 5 MM Led and drill the hull out to 5 MM, paint the Led and push through from the inside.
It worked well but didn't match lower colored clear Nav pieces.
So I ended up cutting the 5 mm piece down flat so it would be even with the hull and clip the locator pin off of the clear Nav part and lay it on top of the 5 mm led. 
It looked good but the clear kit parts have air bubbles cast into them.
Just my 2 cents.


----------



## SteveR

FyreTigger said:


> The other thing I want try is using sheet styrene and pin-striping tape to make a square or pentagonal mirror assembly tube to attach to the fan upper part of the spindle of the fan blade dome. In theory, it should create moving kicks of light of from the bulbs.


How about taking a cheap plastic crystal, drilling it, and attaching it to the spindle?


----------



## ClubTepes

RedShirt36 said:


> Hi, first time poster here, and glad I found this thread! Lots of great advice here. I'm building the kit with the Polar Lights electronics and detail kits. A wonderful job creating these kits and my complements to them. Well worth every penny and I've been having a great time.
> 
> So far, my build is going very well, but as I get ready to close up the primary hull, I'm trying to figure out if there are any techniques to get the navigation lights on the top of the primary hull brighter. With the provided red and green lenses the lighting is barely visible from the top and not at all from the side. I thought about painting the clear parts with a light coat of clear red/green paint to see if they conduct the light any better, but even when clear they don't light up very well. I've got the LEDs placed with the light source directly under the holes, so they are getting as direct a light as possible, as far as I can tell. The white nav lights on the bottom light very well.
> 
> Any suggestions are welcomed and appreciated. Thanks in advance.


Did you scuff up the parts with some steel wool and then some dull coat?
This might help.


----------



## Rahn

I like this builders solution to the nav lights. Starts about 10 min in.


----------



## Opus Penguin

Too late for me to try this (already glued the saucer together), but I may replace the green and red domes with clear ones and lightly color them with translucent green and red paint and see if that makes them brighter.


----------



## Trekkriffic

Rahn said:


> I like this builders solution to the nav lights. Starts about 10 min in.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgwvPHBFjS4


Nice video. If I understand correctly he ended up attaching the 2 LEDs on each side in parallel rather than serial with no resistors since the board is putting out about 3.2-3.5 volts to each side of the saucer. If he had run them in serial he'd be sharing that voltage between the two LEDs and they woudln't light.


----------



## publiusr

Pretty much everything so far concerns bulbs, rotating parts, and what have you. I wonder if thinkgeek or some other folks might be able to vaccuform simple dome screens, or dome displays:

Here we go OLED screens
http://www.oled-info.com/flexible-oled
http://www.economist.com/node/12971020
http://www.target.com/s/led+multicolor+dome+lights
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004XAEHHU...e=asn&creative=395105&creativeASIN=B004XAEHHU

Now this looks really interesting. I wonder if this could be shrunk down:
http://paulbourke.net/dome/faq.html
Maybe he could shrink something down and turn this inside out.


In my minds eye, I can see a thin film rotating image without all the guts normally needed...or a small projector...

O/T
Bridge effects
http://www.stewartfilmscreen.com/commercial/simulation/overview/overview_simulation.html
http://www.dynascanusa.com/ds360.html?gclid=CJjh4Kyr4bUCFQepnQod83EAAg
http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=388456


----------



## MartinHatfield

Rahn said:


> I like this builders solution to the nav lights. Starts about 10 min in.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgwvPHBFjS4


Can anybody direct me to the LEDs that he used in this video? I really liked his idea for the lights and want to use the same technique.


----------



## Rahn

MartinHatfield said:


> Can anybody direct me to the LEDs that he used in this video? I really liked his idea for the lights and want to use the same technique.


So far I have only found them through a UK dealer (which I'd have to find again).

I thought I read a comment to that video by Model Man Tom saying he may carry them through his Modelers Brand site.


----------



## wjplenge

I see ModelMan has a comment on the video from 2 weeks ago that he just got in a shipment of them and will be selling them through his website on the update "next month" so I'm assuming he'll have them on his site sometime in March.

http://modelersbrand.com/

I hope this helps.


Best,
Bill


----------



## FyreTigger

Rahn said:


> I tried shooting some video (click the pic). All I have to work with is a cell phone and a small digital camera. Neither lend much in the area of exposure control.
> 
> The video has more hot spots and saturated color than in reality.


Thank you for sharing this. Did you use any of the green or blue bulbs, or only the amber and red?

Also, did you by chance use glass frosting spray on the domes?

Thanks!


----------



## Rahn

FyreTigger said:


> Thank you for sharing this. Did you use any of the green or blue bulbs, or only the amber and red?
> 
> Also, did you by chance use glass frosting spray on the domes?
> 
> Thanks!


There are the 5 static ambers, 2 green, 2 blue, 1 red flashing.

Like I said, the video is a poor representation.

As for frosting...

on the left was my 'steel wool on the inside/dull coat on the outside' attempt, and on the right is Rust-Oleum's Frosted Glass Spray.


----------



## FyreTigger

FyreTigger said:


> The other thing I want try is using sheet styrene and pin-striping tape to make a square or pentagonal mirror assembly tube to attach to the fan upper part of the spindle of the fan blade dome. In theory, it should create moving kicks of light of from the bulbs. I'm not simply wrapping the spindle in the chrome as the light kick off a cylinder is vary narrow.


I tested this idea today. The effect was not dramatic. It did not produce a visible kick on the outer dome. I should have predicted this but there was very little effect from front or side. However, it did produce a nice effect in the upper dome when viewed from 3/4ths front.


----------



## SteveR

We need a tiny disco ball in there.


----------



## ClubTepes

FyreTigger said:


> I tested this idea today. The effect was not dramatic. It did not produce a visible kick on the outer dome. I should have predicted this but there was very little effect from front or side. However, it did produce a nice effect in the upper dome when viewed from 3/4ths front.


I would have loved to see how the Bussard effect looked in person back in the 60's.
Somehow, unless you go back to a filament type bulb, (which would have presented a whole set of new problems like heat and short bulb life) mirrors and such might not do much, simply because of the scaled down size.

Its like the way water looks in old Godzilla movies where the model is so small, that the water simply doesn't look 'right'.

Some things just don't function the same when you shrink them down.

Rahn - how do you feel about the Rust-Oleum's 'Frosted Glass' durability?


----------



## SteveR

ClubTepes said:


> Somehow, unless you go back to a filament type bulb, (which would have presented a whole set of new problems like heat and short bulb life) mirrors and such might not do much, simply because of the scaled down size.


Yep. Also, filaments are omnidirectional and LEDs are highly directional. If you fire one at a bulb-shaped piece of clear solid plastic, the plastic will give off a soft glow, imitating a coloured soft-white bulb, also not resembling a scaled-down tiny omnidirectional filament ... if the plastic is diffused, that is. If it is not, we might still have the unidirectional LED effect, seen best from one angle only.

So ... off the top of my head, if the original bulbs were clear glass around a tungsten filament, the only way to scale that down might be to flare a tiny fiber optic placed inside a scaled-down (glossy) clear bulb. Not ideal (over scale), but more "omni". Maybe flared FO could be cast inside replica bulbs. Thoughts?


----------



## Trekkriffic

SteveR said:


> Yep. Also, filaments are omnidirectional and LEDs are highly directional. If you fire one at a bulb-shaped piece of clear solid plastic, the plastic will give off a soft glow, imitating a coloured soft-white bulb, also not resembling a scaled-down tiny omnidirectional filament ... if the plastic is diffused, that is. If it is not, we might still have the unidirectional LED effect, seen best from one angle only.
> 
> So ... off the top of my head, if the original bulbs were clear glass around a tungsten filament, the only way to scale that down might be to flare a tiny fiber optic placed inside a scaled-down (glossy) clear bulb. Not ideal (over scale), but more "omni". Maybe flared FO could be cast inside replica bulbs. Thoughts?


Somehow I think flared fiber inside replica bulbs just wouldn't be bright enough. Cetainly not as bright as a tungsten filament. I read somewhere that the original Christmas tree bulbs were colored. When they burned out they'd replace them with whatever colored bulb was at hand. So the colors could change from scene to scene depending on when the original footage was shot and if there were any bulb changes in between.


----------



## RedShirt36

Thanks to everyone who replied to my question about the nav lights, there are some great ideas here. I'll have to decide which solution falls inside my skill set. 

Much appreciated!


----------



## SteveR

Trekkriffic said:


> Somehow I think flared fiber inside replica bulbs just wouldn't be bright enough. Cetainly not as bright as a tungsten filament.


I've seen some good kick off a flared FO if the LED is positioned _just right_ ... and if the FO is short enough ... though that may not matter. But yeah ... it has to be look right.


----------



## Rahn

ClubTepes said:


> Rahn - how do you feel about the Rust-Oleum's 'Frosted Glass' durability?


My 'test dome' has held up pretty well, better than the dull coat did. The dull coat started rubbing off after some handling (gloves would probably help). My intention is that the Bussard domes will be the very last thing I install so they won't have to be handled much


----------



## Rahn

My thoughts on the Bussard lighting...

With the light kit constructed as it is, I don't know how close we can ever get to the original effect.

The original lighting was made from Christmas tree lights strung in front of broken mirrors. With the lights suspended in front of the mirrors, the mirrors could reflect the full range of light from the bulbs... hot spots, ambient glow, etc. emitting in all directions.

Now we are using LEDs with their light restricted to emitting through a narrow tube directly forward. Any reflective material will only have the ability to reflect ambient glow, no strong hot spots.

To truly achieve the original effect, a different design is required.

I am much (MUCH) happier with my effect after going with all large 'bulbs'. I think it will be as close as I can get. It even looks pretty good without the spinner dome installed.


----------



## Trekkriffic

Has anybody who has the lighting kit considered swapping out the existing clear LEDs for colored LEDs with longer legs? I have the light kit and I'm going to be ordering a selection of ultra bright round and flat top diffused 3mm LEDs from Lighthouse LEDs. The LEDs on the light board have legs that extend about 1/8th inch above the board. Rather than try to desolder the legs from the backside of the board what about snipping the LEDs off from above the board leaving enough of the legs behind to solder to the legs of the new LEDs. Leave the legs long enough to cover with black shrink tubing so you could bend the LEDs over at an angle to clear the spinner. You'd need to trim away most if not all of the ten existing tubes but you really wouldn't need them anyway if you're not using the colored plastic candle shaped parts. Lighthouse has clear,amber,blue,green, and pink LEDs so you could have all the colors you need. I could even see cutting off the tips of the candle shaped plastic inserts and gluing them to the tops of flat topped diffuse LEDs to mimic the shape of the original Christmas tree lights. My main concern would be burning out the chip on the board but there may be a way to attach a metal heat sink clamp below the new solder joints. Aside from that does anybody think this might work so long as you were careful to get the polarity right with the new LEDs? I would really be ticked at myself if I clipped off the LEDs there now and the board no longer functioned considering what I paid for the light kit.


----------



## Rahn

I was under the impression that different colors of LEDs have different voltage requirements.

But, I could be wrong.


----------



## TrekFX

I decided to put LEDs right up in the dome to recreate the original layout. I reshaped them to imply C7 bulbs and slipped a piece of black shrink tube on the bottom as "sockets." It places the "filament" just about right. They still had some strong directional lensing so I applied some additional paint/pearl "caps" to the tips to subdue it. 

I wanted to get a glimpse back into history and see, approximately, what the whole business may have looked like, as well as determine if a scaled recreation would translate visually. These are just the prototype/proof-of-concept and need some tweaking. A few concessions made for injection-molding, like the inner dome shaft, need attention.

The naked warp:











The sad truth about warp drive:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/8464537799/


Bad video:


----------



## RMC

trekfx,...are you using the polar lights kit motors ?...if not where did you get these motors


----------



## Trekkriffic

Rahn said:


> I was under the impression that different colors of LEDs have different voltage requirements.
> 
> But, I could be wrong.


I checked my LED parallel array wizard and you're right. Blue and white LEDs have a fowarding voltage of 3.3V. For yellow, green, orange, and red it's 2-2.2V. I assume pink and amber would be 2-2.2V as well. So I figure the LEDs on the board being clear are 3.3V. Which means too much voltage for the pink, green, and amber LEDs. Guess my idea won't work then. Unless it's possible to add a second resistor in series with the resistor on the board? Hmmm. Sounds too complicated.


----------



## Trekkriffic

RMC said:


> trekfx,...are you using the polar lights kit motors ?...if not where did you get these motors


I think he's using his own motors. 

Trexfx, how many revolutions per minute is the spinning dome going in your video? Looks pretty fast.


----------



## kekker

What about cutting a few small nicks into the "bulbs"? Wouldn't that give some side reflections and random spots?

Haven't gotten my light kit yet, so can't test it myself.

Kev


----------



## Hed

Trekkriffic said:


> I checked my LED parallel array wizard and you're right. Blue and white LEDs have a fowarding voltage of 3.3V. For yellow, green, orange, and red it's 2-2.2V. I assume pink and amber would be 2-2.2V as well. So I figure the LEDs on the board being clear are 3.3V. Which means too much voltage for the pink, green, and amber LEDs. Guess my idea won't work then. Unless it's possible to add a second resistor in series with the resistor on the board? Hmmm. Sounds too complicated.


What about using all clear leds and then painting them with transparent colour.


----------



## Hed

I wonder if someone would do a sort of aftermarket enhancement light kit. It wouldn't have to replace the Round 2 system just replace the nav and nacelle lights in the ways suggested.


----------



## TrekFX

Trekkriffic said:


> I think he's using his own motors.
> 
> Trexfx, how many revolutions per minute is the spinning dome going in your video? Looks pretty fast.


I'm using Sanyo NA4S/SA489 motors similar to these:
http://www.kysanelectronics.com/Products/Detail.php?recordID=5991

The rectangular end plate fits into the kit's housing recess like they were made for each other. I just needed to make the inner dome shaft bore a little deeper.

I'm keeping the LEDs smooth to eliminate random kicks and prismatic effects since the mirrors do that already. I had rough-hewn LEDs with sort-of facets that just cluttered up the look. I want the LEDs to emulate the characteristics of traditional bulbs as much as possible (to a point!)

The whole thing runs off a single DC supply line. Nice and simple. I have no idea what the rotation rate is. Everything is getting around 3.25-3.5 volts now, I think.


----------



## Trekkriffic

Hed said:


> What about using all clear leds and then painting them with transparent colour.


Yes. That's another possibility.


----------



## SteveR

Hed said:


> What about using all clear leds and then painting them with transparent colour.


Exactly: that's the prevailing wisdom among us electronically-impaired types.


----------



## Trekkriffic

SteveR said:


> Exactly: that's the prevailing wisdom among us electronically-impaired types.


Just for ducks I sent Lighthouse LEDs an email asking for details on the forwarding voltages for their LEDs in the various colors.


----------



## Opus Penguin

I am painting my model using oil-based paint. It is going on great. However, after letting it dry for a week (and it is very dry), I used Scotch brand painters tape to mask parts of the model I plan to airbrush a different color. When the tape comes off, there are areas the oil paint comes up too and I see the primer color below. Any ideas why this is happening? It can be fixed, but is annoying and a pain. I also worry how durable the paint will be on the model going forward.


----------



## RossW

Hed said:


> I wonder if someone would do a sort of aftermarket enhancement light kit. It wouldn't have to replace the Round 2 system just replace the nav and nacelle lights in the ways suggested.


I'm working on a board that plugs into the saucer PCB (since there are a few unused headers) and has very accurate timings for the running lights, plus a button to allow picking your desired flash rate (1.5 sec on/0.5 sec off (typical flash rate I've observed over many episodes), or 0.5 sec on/1.5 sec off (as on the MR Enterprise), or 0.783 sec on/0.875 off (as observed on 'The Corbomite Maneuver'). I added slight fade in/out to try and replicate incandescent bulbs (as opposed to LEDs which are just on/off)


----------



## RMC

Tenacontrols.com already has a version for the 1/350 tos enterprise lighting system........I think culttvman has them


----------



## Jhjorlando

Can you describe, or show a picture of the jig you used to scribe the grid lines for the top saucer?


----------



## Jhjorlando

*Penciling grid lines*



Spacecraftfilms said:


> By the way, I am one of those that can't stand the gridlines. So... I'm not opening that can o' worms, but telling you how I got rid of them. I started with bondo, per suggestion of someone, I believe on this board. That worked ok, but was so fast-setting that I couldn't get the entire saucer done before the rest set up. So I then finished the job with Mr. Dissolved Putty. With several applications and a lot of sanding, the job was done on both sides of the saucer section. I then built a jig and penciled the gridlines back on, knocking it back with another coat of hull color, then added the rust belt with airbrushing Tamiya Desert Yellow, very lightly, with several masks. Once I can post photos I'll show the result. Still more weathering to do, but the surface is smooth and the gridlines are back to where I would like them.


Can you better describe, or show a picture of how you scribed the grid lines?


----------



## Gary7

The Nav LED's that were replaced in the video, what were the specs on them?


----------



## nautilusnut

> am painting my model using oil-based paint. It is going on great. However, after letting it dry for a week (and it is very dry), I used Scotch brand painters tape to mask parts of the model I plan to airbrush a different color. When the tape comes off, there are areas the oil paint comes up too and I see the primer color below. Any ideas why this is happening? It can be fixed, but is annoying and a pain. I also worry how durable the paint will be on the model going forward.
> Reply With Quote


Enamel paints are very durable- moreso than acrylics. I suspect the model surface still has mold release on it. Did you wash or wipe the model down with alcohol before painting? Did you use a primer? I always wash the parts before assembly to remove oils. After building wipe with either Polly S paint prep or alcohol, then prime the model with something like Rustoleum Sandable Primer. You should have no paint problems then- providing the paint is dry before masking over it.


----------



## Opus Penguin

nautilusnut said:


> Enamel paints are very durable- moreso than acrylics. I suspect the model surface still has mold release on it. Did you wash or wipe the model down with alcohol before painting? Did you. ouFar se a primer? I always wash the parts before assembly to remove oils. After building wipe with either Polly S paint prep or alcohol, then prime the model with something like Rustoleum Sandable Primer. You should have no paint problems then- providing the paint is dry before masking over it.


Thanks for responding. I washed all parts in warm soapy water and rinsed them well. I did prime the pieces ( which stuck very well to the plastic). If there is still mold release on the kit, I would be surprised. So far, it is only a couple of tiny spots, but I have not removed all masking yet so I am not sure if this will be a big problem yet. Also, only the oil based paint is coming up. The primer still sticks to the plastic below that.


----------



## John P

Different kinds of primer and final coat. I had the same thing happen - I used Testors enamel primer, and Tamiya laquer final coat. Masking tape was pulling off the laquer and leaving the enamel. It's because the two different formula paints don't stick to each other very well. I ended up stripping the parts back down to the plastic and painting with only the laquer final coat, with no primer.


----------



## Trekkriffic

Another thing to consider is ditching the blue tape, at least for masking large areas. I used it in small pieces for the paneling on my Leif Ericson and it worked well for the most part although there were one of two spots it pulled off some of the enamel. I had sprayed with Tamiya laquer primer so that was probably my fault-enamel over lacquer probably not a good idea like JP said. If you need to mask a large area consider cutting sheets of Saran wrap and attaching it to the edge of your masking area with Tamiya tape. Or you could use aluminum foil. Saran wrap will block any paint and it saves you from using a lot of the expensive Tamiya tape.


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## John P

^I tape pieces of paper or Post-It notes on for large areas. It's a bit more awkward than flexible stuff like saran or foil, but you don't get the crumbly paint flakes when removing it.


----------



## Hed

RMC said:


> Tenacontrols.com already has a version for the 1/350 tos enterprise lighting system........I think culttvman has them


Yes I've seen a video of it on youtube. I like the little sparkly flashes it produces but I'm not so keen on the chaser circuit method instead of the inner dome. Their system seems to give the impression of only two vanes spinning inside. Unless it can be adjusted to form more vanes.


----------



## Gary7

Hed said:


> Yes I've seen a video of it on youtube. I like the little sparkly flashes it produces but I'm not so keen on the chaser circuit method instead of the inner dome. Their system seems to give the impression of only two vanes spinning inside. Unless it can be adjusted to form more vanes.


Could there be a way to adapt it to use the motors & domes with the PL kit?


----------



## Hed

I think there's a led right in the middle so you can't drill a hole for the motor.


----------



## nautilusnut

> Their system seems to give the impression of only two vanes spinning inside. Unless it can be adjusted to form more vanes.
> Reply With Quote


This might help if you want to use that system and imply there are more blades spinning than two.

http://culttvman.com/main/?p=7703&u...n=building-the-ultimate-nacelle-by-ken-huegel


----------



## Spacecraftfilms

Hed said:


> Their system seems to give the impression of only two vanes spinning inside. Unless it can be adjusted to form more vanes.


I have these and am using them instead of the motors. While it is true there are only two "vanes" spinning, with diffusion I am really pleased with the effect, especially on certain speeds (which are controllable). I'll try and capture it this weekend, along with a shot of the jig requested for drawing the grid lines back on the saucer. I'm just about to start sealing everything up.

I took a chance on the nacelle lights, and am happy I did so. The trade off, to me, is small compared to the noise of the motors. I'm also worried that over time moving parts are much more likely to fail or have issues.


----------



## kdaracal

I've got a serious question: Does light pass through the white (opaque) windows? Can you use them with lights, instead of the clear? 

I see talk of folks sanding the clear windows to produce a subtler light effect, and some folks using the black windows for the "unlit" ones. 

For that matter, does light pass through the black ones? Or are they supposed to block errant (undesirable) lights? 

The bottom line: *what should I use for the "lit" windows? And what should I use for the "unlit" windows?*


----------



## SteveR

I would sand the clear windows for the lit ones. I would use the white for the panels on top of the saucer, because light does pass through them somewhat. I would use the smoky windows for the dark ones, but I would light block them with black paint from the inside.

Have you tested them with lights yet?


----------



## beeblebrox

^ Very happy with the sanded clear ones on mine.


----------



## beeblebrox

beeblebrox said:


> Unfortunately, I didn't notice how dim they were until after it was sealed up and painted. I popped the red and green ones off and drilled an opening just a bit smaller than the domes. This lit them up a little more. Maybe the LED's are aimed more toward the lower white ones?


Still wasn't satisfied with the brightness of the red and green saucer lights. Found some 1/4" acrylic rods and rounded the ends. Drilled 1/4" holes. Cut off the rods so they would bottom out in the holes with just the domes sticking up. When I rounded the ends in my pretend lathe(drill press), I sanded the sides to help transfer light. Clear red and green paint to top them off. Much better.


----------



## Hunch

Opus Penguin said:


> I am painting my model using oil-based paint. It is going on great. However, after letting it dry for a week (and it is very dry), I used Scotch brand painters tape to mask parts of the model I plan to airbrush a different color. When the tape comes off, there are areas the oil paint comes up too and I see the primer color below. Any ideas why this is happening? It can be fixed, but is annoying and a pain. I also worry how durable the paint will be on the model going forward.


Oil from your fingers may have been present, or maybe a bit of mold release did not get washed off prior to painting. This is the most common reason. Also the tape may be too sticky. I use the tamiya tape and cut it to the sizes I need. Expensive tape but has not pulled off my paint thus far (knocks on wood).


----------



## Hunch

Also, can someone confirm (for SURE) the voltage coming off of the PL Nav light board to be 3.2-3.5 volts?
Thanks,
JW


----------



## swhite228

Today is Ace Free Paint Day for those looking to get a quart of Shady Cove.
Tell them you want it in a flat and at you are using it for and they will mix it for you.


----------



## beeblebrox

swhite228 said:


> Today is Ace Free Paint Day for those looking to get a quart of Shady Cove.
> Tell them you want it in a flat and at you are using it for and they will mix it for you.


The free ones only come in flat. Been mixing them all morning. LOL


----------



## RossW

Hunch said:


> Also, can someone confirm (for SURE) the voltage coming off of the PL Nav light board to be 3.2-3.5 volts?
> Thanks,
> JW


If you mean the two headers that the nav lights ('M') connect to, then yes they're around 3.1V. There's a 220 ohm resistor which drops the 5v from the IC chip down to 3.1v.


----------



## swhite228

beeblebrox said:


> The free ones only come in flat. Been mixing them all morning. LOL


Todays color choice was "Crazy Apple" which is a very close match to the Green Chromakey paints made for studio use.


----------



## kdaracal

OK, gentlemen. I'll use sanded clear windows for the lit, black windows (painted black on the back) for the unlit, and white for the upper hull specialty windows.

Does everyone concur? :thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------



## beeblebrox

I didn't use the white ones anywhere. Thought the sanded clear ones on the saucer squares looked good.


----------



## starmanmm

The ACE paint... if you are AB it... how are you thinning it? I figure that it would be too thick to AB.


----------



## beeblebrox

Latex paint is very similar to craft paint, plus this stuff is a little on the thin side anyway, so thinning should be easy enough.


----------



## Trekkriffic

starmanmm said:


> The ACE paint... if you are AB it... how are you thinning it? I figure that it would be too thick to AB.


It's not Latex, at least not what I think of as Latex. It's an oil based enamel formulated for use on farm equipment so it's tough stuff. Thin with ordinary paint thinner/mineral spirits. Or, if you have it, Testors airbrush thinner. That's what I used when I did my 1/1000 Enterprise and it went on fine. It's thick so you probably want a 2-1 thinner to paint ratio or thin to the consistency of milk as they always say.


----------



## beeblebrox

This is water based latex. I sell the stuff. Only difference between this and regular wall paint is it has a built in primer. The brand is called Clark and Kensington. Look it up.


----------



## beeblebrox

The oil-based I sell is called ACE RustStop. The give away is to promote the new ACE brand. Not being an a$$ here, just trying to avoid any confusion.

EDIT: The product does say enamel and does not specify latex, but I promise it is water-based. There will be another chance to get this next saturday and again, I believe, in August.


----------



## Trekkriffic

Looking on Google and it appears you can get shady cove in water or oil based formulations. My can is Benjamin Moore and it is definitely oil based. It thins and cleans up with paint thinner.


----------



## beeblebrox

Yes, you can get Shady Cove in whatever paint your local ACE has chosen to carry. Just saying that the giveaway paint was flat water-based.


----------



## Opus Penguin

Hunch said:


> Oil from your fingers may have been present, or maybe a bit of mold release did not get washed off prior to painting. This is the most common reason. Also the tape may be too sticky. I use the tamiya tape and cut it to the sizes I need. Expensive tape but has not pulled off my paint thus far (knocks on wood).


Thanks for the info. I did peel off the rest of the masking and everything turned out ok. It was only the area around the Nacelle Trench that I had any paint come up, which is easily fixed. It turned out not to be as big of an issue as I was worried about, but it was still strange this happened. I was sure I thoroughly cleaned the model before I began, but I guess anything is possible. I will wipe down the area with alcohol to be sure it is clean before doing the touch-up.


----------



## Trekkriffic

beeblebrox said:


> Yes, you can get Shady Cove in whatever paint your local ACE has chosen to carry. Just saying that the giveaway paint was flat water-based.


OK. No problemos.


----------



## Opus Penguin

This is the paint I am using (oil-based though, but same color). I love the color.


----------



## beeblebrox

Trekkriffic said:


> OK. No problemos.


Macho Grande.


----------



## Trekkriffic

Opus Penguin said:


> This is the paint I am using (oil-based though, but same color). I love the color.


I love it too although I hate the long drying time. The gloss can take up to a week to fully cure. I have almost a full quart of it but I'm seriously considering going with Testors Imperial Japanese Navy Sky Grey like Polar Lights recommends. Already bought a couple of bottles. I may undercoat with the Shady Cover, pre-weather with the airbrush, then overcoat with the Testors. Lots to decide on.


----------



## Opus Penguin

Fortunately for me, I have a week in between times to be able to work on the model so the drying time was not an issue. I do have a lot left over though. Maybe I can save it for future Enterprise kits


----------



## Trekkriffic

Opus Penguin said:


> Fortunately for me, I have a week in between times to be able to work on the model so the drying time was not an issue. I do have a lot left over though. Maybe I can save it for future Enterprise kits


A quart should be enough to build several 1/350 kits.


----------



## JHauser

I'm new to this forum and have been following this particular thread and would like to make a few contributions. After reading several post on dealing with controlling the speed the bussard motors and with the noise and wobble also, I would like to show what I have done to address these issues. I actually posted part of this in a thread titled "TOS E Nacelle Rotation Rate", but then realized it would be better suited here. 

This what I posted earlier:

I was also planning on using some form of pulse width modulation and I wanted to operate the lighting and motors by RF remote control. What I am working with is a DC 12V 3x4A Mini RF Wireless Remote Controller Dimmer for LED RGB Strip Light. $8.99 shipped on eBay.

Not only is it cheap and wireless, but because it is for RGB LEDs it has basically three channels @ 4a each. The remote is designed to be able to change the colors of the LEDs by varying average value of the voltage (actually there is only a 12v supply, but with the PWM you're dropping the ground to vary the voltage -any one can step in hear and clarify this better if they like). What I found is that there's a 5 input selection range with the remote that I can maintain a 12v to feed the main board to power the IC chips and other LEDs and bussard LEDs while being able to select either a 4.4v (14 rpm), 8.5v (39 rpm), 10.8v (54 rpm) and 12.3v (63 rpm) to the motors. The last channel I'm using for the LEDs inside the nacelles. Those have two different voltage outputs in that same range. So what I can do is have a setting that I preferred and be able to turn it on or off with the remote or be able to turn on all the lighting effects, than add the bussard motors at their lowest speed and then I can advance the speed three more times. I modified the leads on the board so it's a plug-in add-on.

I found it to be a very simple, cheap and elegant way to do what I want. I thought I would pass it on.

Here are a couple of pictures of the before and after.


----------



## Skyking918

Can you post another photo showing what connections go where?


----------



## Trekkriffic

JHauser,

Just curious. If you didn't care about radio controlling the engine speed, and were happy just having a knob to twist, would a rheostat switch on a separate electrical circuit for the motors enable you to adjust the speed up and down? Or would that pretty much just be an off/off type of thing?


----------



## JHauser

As far as dealing with the noise and wobble, I replaced the original motors with Sayama 12SM-AT3 Precision Mini Gearhead Motors. They are quieter than the originals. To use them with the PWM controller, I added a diode across the terminals.

The first thing that I wanted to do was to de-couple them from the model. To do that I needed to mount the motors separately from bussard housing and use some type of drive connection to isolate them from the "rotating fan". I knew I was looking for an intermediate spindle/bearing set-up. What I finally came up with was a couple of bearings salvaged from some old hard drives that the outer sleeve had a set screw for mounting and could accept a shaft on both sides. The new spindle for the "rotating fan" was threaded screw turned down and the drive shaft on the other side was from 2-56 Threaded Ball Links kit from Great Planes (GPMQ3841). I mounted the bearing assembly in the bussard housing in place of the original motor and connected it to the motor with a coupling of silicone tubing (again left over from my days in RC planes). 

The motors rest in a cylinder of foam that I made, it is used for isolating RC electronics from vibration . The set-up is very quiet compared to the original and no noticeable wobble at all. For future serviceability, I am mounting the whole bussard collector with two small screws as shown in the photo.


----------



## Paulbo

beeblebrox said:


> Macho Grande.


No. I don't think I'll ever get over Macho Grande.


----------



## JHauser

Skyking918 said:


> Can you post another photo showing what connections go where?


The connector with the blue shrink tube is power in, it has a female Micro JST 2.0 PH 2-Pin Connector. As you can see, all of the 12v (red leads) connect to the 12v output. The lead with the tag (J) is for the 12v power to the main circuit board. The lead with the red shrink tube is for the motors. The last one I'm using to light the insides of the nacelles.


----------



## JHauser

Trekkriffic said:


> JHauser,
> 
> Just curious. If you didn't care about radio controlling the engine speed, and were happy just having a knob to twist, would a rheostat switch on a separate electrical circuit for the motors enable you to adjust the speed up and down? Or would that pretty much just be an off/off type of thing?


I would still use a PWM , they can be had cheap on ebay. There are a few posts on youtube using them for this purpose (controlling the PL bussards). That's where I got the original idea for what I did.


----------



## RossW

JHauser said:


> As far as dealing with the noise and wobble, I replaced the original motors with Sayama 12SM-AT3 Precision Mini Gearhead Motors. They are quieter than the originals. To use them with the PWM controller, I added a diode across the terminals.
> 
> The first thing that I wanted to do was to de-couple them from the model. To do that I needed to mount the motors separately from bussard housing and use some type of drive connection to isolate them from the "rotating fan". I knew I was looking for an intermediate spindle/bearing set-up. What I finally came up with was a couple of bearings salvaged from some old hard drives that the outer sleeve had a set screw for mounting and could accept a shaft on both sides. The new spindle for the "rotating fan" was threaded screw turned down and the drive shaft on the other side was from 2-56 Threaded Ball Links kit from Great Planes (GPMQ3841). I mounted the bearing assembly in the bussard housing in place of the original motor and connected it to the motor with a coupling of silicone tubing (again left over from my days in RC planes).
> 
> The motors rest in a cylinder of foam that I made, it is used for isolating RC electronics from vibration . The set-up is very quiet compared to the original and no noticeable wobble at all. For future serviceability, I am mounting the whole bussard collector with two small screws as shown in the photo.


This is what I've been wracking my brains trying to figure out - how to use the Sayama motors and at the same time drastically reduce the noise. I really like your solution here, but it doesn't seem like I could replicate it if I don't have spare HD ball bearings lying around.

Where did you get the brass collar that sits over the motor's shaft? I bought some 3mm outside diameter brass tubing but it wasn't snug, and I really don't want to introduce more wobble.

If the inner dome were to spin with it supported in the plastic kit part #41 (the disk with the cones), is there a friction-free product that could be applied to help with smooth spinning?

Do you have any photos which shows this part?


> I mounted the bearing assembly in the bussard housing in place of the original motor and connected it to the motor with a coupling of silicone tubing (again left over from my days in RC planes).


----------



## JHauser

If you Goggle "Great Planes Threaded Ball Link Set 2-56" you should be able to find them. I would post a link, but apparently I need at least 5 posts before I can do that. It's a tight friction fit on the shaft. The silicone fuel tubing can be had at most Hobby stores.

I was planning on using miniature bearings originally before I tried the ones I had. If you check at lily-bearing.com you'll find pretty much any size that you need. If you're looking to use part # 41 ( my instruction show it as #42 - the one that holds the bulb) as the support, you could use part # MF83 (3mm id x 8 mm od) and mount it to the center hole. I was going to put the flanged side down either CA glue it, shrink tube it or just use some aluminum tape to mount it. You would have to trim about a 1/2" the shaft on the inner dome to make that work.

If you where planning on mounting the Sayama motor in the normal housing, you could put the threaded brass coupler (15/16" long with 7/16" 2-56 thread) directly on the shaft of the motor and the inner dome will thread on to it. You will have to trim the length of either or both shafts to make it work.

The bearing I used has a small tap on the side for a screw. The second photo shows it mounted.


----------



## Prowler901

Very clever JHauser. I shall be researching this for my upcoming build. Any chance of you posting a video of it to hear the sound difference?


----------



## SteveR

See, now these are real-world hobby tips! :thumbsup:

(... over my head, but real-world nevertheless!)


----------



## JHauser

I hope that I'm not misrepresenting myself , but this is the scale that I'm working with. LOL (not my photo)


----------



## RossW

I really want to reduce the motor noise - do you think your mounting system makes a big difference from putting the motor into the housing?


----------



## JHauser

RossW said:


> I really want to reduce the motor noise - do you think your mounting system makes a big difference from putting the motor into the housing?



Yes I do.

Actually , I removed the motor from the housing (which does more to reducing noise than replacing motors). The vibrations are more from the gear box that the motor. By mounting the motor/gearbox assembly directly to the bussard housing, you are transmitting any vibrations to the rest of the nacelle assembly amplifying the noise. To reduce the noise you need to physically de-couple one from the other. Hence the motor is physically mounted in a vibration isolating foam and the drive is only connected by a silicone tube. At the lowest rpm I posted, there is barely a hum. Think of it as the warp drive in standby


----------



## RossW

JHauser said:


> Yes I do.
> 
> Actually , I removed the motor from the housing (which does more to reducing noise than replacing motors). The vibrations are more from the gear box that the motor. By mounting the motor/gearbox assembly directly to the bussard housing, you are transmitting any vibrations to the rest of the nacelle assembly amplifying the noise. To reduce the noise you need to physically de-couple one from the other. Hence the motor is physically mounted in a vibration isolating foam and the drive is only connected by a silicone tube. At the lowest rpm I posted, there is barely a hum. Think of it as the warp drive in standby


I can't quite picture where the silicone tube is placed - is it inside the nacelle assembly?


----------



## [email protected]

*Tube?*



RossW said:


> I can't quite picture where the silicone tube is placed - is it inside the nacelle assembly?


I think he's using it as a "universal joint" on the driveshaft for the fan blades.

Tom


----------



## RossW

[email protected] said:


> I think he's using it as a "universal joint" on the driveshaft for the fan blades.
> 
> Tom


Thanks Tom. It looks like from one of the photos that the brass shaft is snug inside the nacelle housing - does that mean that the silicone tube is actually inside it?


----------



## [email protected]

RossW said:


> Thanks Tom. It looks like from one of the photos that the brass shaft is snug inside the nacelle housing - does that mean that the silicone tube is actually inside it?


 
Looking at the second photo in post #1281, you can see the translucent silicone tubing between the motor and the bearings. I had to go look myself. 

Tom


----------



## JHauser

[email protected] said:


> I think he's using it as a "universal joint" on the driveshaft for the fan blades.
> 
> Tom


Sorry about the confusion, but that's exactly right. the first picture in post #1286 shows it a little better.


----------



## RossW

JHauser said:


> Sorry about the confusion, but that's exactly right. the first picture in post #1286 shows it a little better.


Not being a RC guy, are you referring to the silvery thing which connects to the shaft of the semi-hemispherical clear spinning dome?


----------



## JHauser

RossW said:


> Not being a RC guy, are you referring to the silvery thing which connects to the shaft of the semi-hemispherical clear spinning dome?


Maybe this might help. The silicone tube is the piece with the circle round it. It slips over the brass end on the motor and the brass end of the bearing assembly and acts as a drive shaft. The reason for it as opposed to a solid shaft is to de-couple the motor vibrations from the bearing assembly which is solidly mounted to the bussard collector.


----------



## JHauser

What's the glue of choice for the large assemblies that take time to glue up and clamp like the saucer ? I have Tamiya extra thin for the small parts. Is Testors liquid cement still the best choice? I've been out of this for a good 30-40 years. I'm planning on using Tamiya lacquer based grey surface primer with their acrylics for everything else.


----------



## beeblebrox

I used Testors in the squeeze tube. Gives plenty of time but a good weld...eventually.


----------



## Trekkriffic

beeblebrox said:


> I used Testors in the squeeze tube. Gives plenty of time but a good weld...eventually.


Yep. Make sure it's the red tube though. The blue (odorless) stuff is crap!


----------



## John P

I Used Testors liquid and slathered in onto both joining surfaces.


----------



## John F

testors liquid cement in the black bottle.


----------



## SteveR

John P said:


> I Used Testors liquid and slathered in onto both joining surfaces.


Yep ... making sure there's a good fit, good contact between mating surfaces, and not letting the brush touch the outer, visible surfaces of the part.

I use the side of the brush when I can.


----------



## RossW

JHauser said:


> Maybe this might help. The silicone tube is the piece with the circle round it. It slips over the brass end on the motor and the brass end of the bearing assembly and acts as a drive shaft. The reason for it as opposed to a solid shaft is to de-couple the motor vibrations from the bearing assembly which is solidly mounted to the bussard collector.


Thanks for that photo - it really helps! Does the silicone tube fit snugly over the brass shafts or is that where the silicone glue/putty come in?


----------



## JHauser

RossW said:


> Thanks for that photo - it really helps! Does the silicone tube fit snugly over the brass shafts or is that where the silicone glue/putty come in?


It's a snug fit. It's just glow fuel line that I had on hand. I'm sure there are other soft tubing that would work as well.


----------



## RossW

How flexible is that? I think you would want it fairly stiff, right? Also, did you glue it to the shafts?


----------



## JHauser

RossW said:


> How flexible is that? I think you would want it fairly stiff, right? Also, did you glue it to the shafts?


Silicone tubing is soft and flexible, but it very durable. You would want it that way so you don't transmit vibrations from the motor. The fact that it only spans a 1/16" to 1/8" gap between shafts is why I can get by using it as I am. No glue, you just push it on. 

http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/dub/dub222.htm


----------



## RossW

Excellent, thanks JHauser. So, the motor is connected to the Great Plains part via the silicone tube. This 'extended' drive shaft passes through the bearing and also connects to the plastic spinning dome.

Does that mean the bearing is there just to line everything up and hold the shaft securely? Please excuse my ignorance but this is an area of modelling I've never really explored before.


----------



## Roberius

I did not like the motor noise either. SO I decided not to use the motors. What I did was use Mirror Frost Paint on both the inner and outer Bussard Domes. I used the Orange Tear Drops and used the small red ones only. It turned out pretty good, I thought.


----------



## Proper2

I wonder how the noise of the motors compares with those of the Master Replicas model. I keep my MR E under an acrylic cover ( 1/4" thick) so the motor hum is not bothersome.


----------



## gregviggiano

*11 foot Enterprise at the Smithsonian*

I'm having some trouble figuring out some differences between the 11 foot Enterprise at the Smithsonian and the Round 2 painting instructions to build a production version.

Specifically, there are some areas on the 11 foot Enterprise that differ substantially. 

If anyone could shed some light, I would be grateful:

1. The paint color of the warp engines rings, front and rear should be darker than the hull color?
2. The paint color of the rear dome warp engine end cap is not specified.
3. The paint color of largest ring of the deflector array (see photo).
4. The deflector dish and center pin are all painted copper.
5. Existence of trailing edge paint accent on the saucer pylon (see photo).
6. Pointed silver stripes within the bussard collectors.
7. Three circular dots on the impulse engine housing.


----------



## gregviggiano

*Smithsonian Photos*

Photos
facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.2886742625075.1073741826.1755458417&type=1&l=139f531e57


----------



## gregviggiano

*11 foot Enterprise at the Smithsonian Questions*

I posted 68 high res (relatively speaking) photos of the 11-foot production model at the Smithsonian. The model lighting was atrocious so I apologize in advance.

facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.2886742625075.1073741826.1755458417&type=1&l=139f531e57

There a few shots that may generate some debate . . . 

I'm having some trouble figuring out some differences between the 11 foot Enterprise at the Smithsonian and the Round 2 instructions to build a production version.

Specifically, there are some areas on the 11 foot Enterprise that differ substantially. If anyone could shed some light, I would be grateful:

1. The paint color of the warp engines rings, front and rear should be darker than the hull color?
2. The paint color of the rear dome warp engine end cap is not specified.
3. The paint color of largest ring of the deflector array.
4. The deflector dish and center pin are all painted copper.
5. Existence of trailing edge paint accent on the saucer pylon.
6. Pointed silver stripes within the bussard collectors.
7. Three circular dots on the impulse engine housing.

I hope this photo work will allow us to build better models. 

We all waited so long for this fabulous kit. Thanks again Round 2!

Best,

Greg V


----------



## Proper2

gregviggiano said:


> I posted 68 high res (relatively speaking) photos of the 11-foot production model at the Smithsonian. The model lighting was atrocious so I apologize in advance.
> 
> facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.2886742625075.1073741826.1755458417&type=1&l=139f531e57
> 
> There a few shots that may generate some debate . . .
> 
> I'm having some trouble figuring out some differences between the 11 foot Enterprise at the Smithsonian and the Round 2 instructions to build a production version.
> 
> Specifically, there are some areas on the 11 foot Enterprise that differ substantially. If anyone could shed some light, I would be grateful:
> 
> 1. The paint color of the warp engines rings, front and rear should be darker than the hull color?
> 2. The paint color of the rear dome warp engine end cap is not specified.
> 3. The paint color of largest ring of the deflector array.
> 4. The deflector dish and center pin are all painted copper.
> 5. Existence of trailing edge paint accent on the saucer pylon.
> 6. Pointed silver stripes within the bussard collectors.
> 7. Three circular dots on the impulse engine housing.
> 
> I hope this photo work will allow us to build better models.
> 
> We all waited so long for this fabulous kit. Thanks again Round 2!
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg V


Very few folks will agree on the colors of the studio model as it was during filming. Fewer yet will agree that the Ed Miarecki restoration in the Smithsonian is anywhere near close to the original.


My 2 cents in regards to your specific questions:

The warp engines rings in front were black or nearly so. Not sure about the rear ones.

I believe the rear dome warp engine end caps to have been white.

The largest ring of the deflector array was copper like the dish, albeit it may have been a thinner, more faded application.

The deflector dish was copper but the mandrel was silver.

Not aware there was a trailing edge paint accent on the "back of the neck," nor silver stripes within the bussard collectors.


----------



## swhite228

gregviggiano said:


> I posted 68 high res (relatively speaking) photos of the 11-foot production model at the Smithsonian. The model lighting was atrocious so I apologize in advance.
> 
> facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.2886742625075.1073741826.1755458417&type=1&l=139f531e57
> 
> There a few shots that may generate some debate . . .
> 
> I'm having some trouble figuring out some differences between the 11 foot Enterprise at the Smithsonian and the Round 2 instructions to build a production version.
> 
> Specifically, there are some areas on the 11 foot Enterprise that differ substantially. If anyone could shed some light, I would be grateful:
> 
> 1. The paint color of the warp engines rings, front and rear should be darker than the hull color?
> 2. The paint color of the rear dome warp engine end cap is not specified.
> 3. The paint color of largest ring of the deflector array.
> 4. The deflector dish and center pin are all painted copper.
> 5. Existence of trailing edge paint accent on the saucer pylon.
> 6. Pointed silver stripes within the bussard collectors.
> 7. Three circular dots on the impulse engine housing.
> 
> I hope this photo work will allow us to build better models.
> 
> We all waited so long for this fabulous kit. Thanks again Round 2!
> 
> Best,
> 
> Greg V


First let's fix the link....
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.2886742625075.1073741826.1755458417&type=1& l=139f531e57


Ok now first think to remember is that your photos are of the ship AFTER it's final restoration and what many call a botched paint job, what you want to be looking at is the model before the restoration which you can see here...
http://www.modelermagic.com/?p=8672

Notice the difference in the way the rings look. Gary Karr has posted that the color of the rings is the same as the hull but with a dark weathering on the center. That along with the end caps shows up here: http://www.modelermagic.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/kg_star-trek_tos_1701_studio_model-081.jpg

The deflector rings are here :http://www.modelermagic.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/kg_star-trek_tos_1701_studio_model-043.jpg


The leading edge of the saucer pylon is here : http://www.modelermagic.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/kg_star-trek_tos_1701_studio_model-059.jpg

The impulse deck photo shows the 3 holes which if I remember were screw holes that got putty applied to them before shooting started. They didn't refill them during restoration. : http://www.modelermagic.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/kg_star-trek_tos_1701_studio_model-077.jpg


As for the deflector dish and the silver stripes in the bussard collectors, those parts are new. When the Smithsonian got the model the domes and dish were missing. The first restoration by Rogay saw them replaced with turkey red domes and a dish that didn't come close to the original. What you see now is the result of a 2nd restoration that allowed the model to be shown for a time with the lights and fans running.

I hope that helps, but remember even the restoration photos are not 100% as seen on tv. The model had undergone 2 other quick restorations when they were taken.


----------



## Proper2

Here's are some useful studio photos of 11-footer. Copy and paste this into your browser: 

_*Models, Sets, Props, Technicians from Star Trek TOS 35mm single frame film clip restorations*_


----------



## Paulbo

Or one could just add a link: http://www.flickr.com/photos/birdofthegalaxy/sets/72157619514479789/


----------



## Proper2

Paulbo said:


> Or one could just add a link: http://www.flickr.com/photos/birdofthegalaxy/sets/72157619514479789/



Yeah, thanks, I was trying to do that but I was clearly not doing it right because it wasn't working for me. Time for a peek at the tutorial.


----------



## Gary7

Wish there were more color vintage studio photos of the final production filming version.


----------



## gregviggiano

*Bussard fan stripes: Pointed, or not?*

I apologize if this question has already been discussed (I didn't see it in older posts).

Is there any consensus in this discussion about whether the Bussard Collector internal spinning fans should have pointed stripes (as on the 11 foot model in the Smithsonian) or squared off stripes?

I have no doubt Gary’s research is quite thorough. But my confusion is in part due to the option of buying pointed “fan blade masks”

My priority is to not duplicate the studio miniature, but to duplicate the miniature’s lighting effect.

Any comments would be appreciated.

To my eye the pointed option might better approximate the filmed effect. 

I guess I’ll try it with cutting foil duct tape strips to test the theory first.


----------



## Proper2

gregviggiano said:


> I apologize if this question has already been discussed (I didn't see it in older posts).
> 
> Is there any consensus in this discussion about whether the Bussard Collector internal spinning fans should have pointed stripes (as on the 11 foot model in the Smithsonian) or squared off stripes?
> 
> I have no doubt Gary’s research is quite thorough. But my confusion is in part due to the option of buying pointed “fan blade masks”
> 
> My priority is to not duplicate the studio miniature, but to duplicate the miniature’s lighting effect.
> 
> Any comments would be appreciated.
> 
> To my eye the pointed option might better approximate the filmed effect.
> 
> I guess I’ll try it with cutting foil duct tape strips to test the theory first.



Not sure what you mean exactly, but as far as I know the blades tapered narrower toward the center and stopped short of meeting as they ended onto a "ring" near the middle as in this illustration:


----------



## gregviggiano

Thank you. Beautiful image. I'll give it a try.


----------



## Trekkriffic

Proper2 said:


> Not sure what you mean exactly, but as far as I know the blades tapered narrower toward the center and stopped short of meeting as they ended onto a "ring" near the middle as in this illustration


Not to stray too far OT but that's what Polar Lights did with their 1/1000 kit. The clear plastic insert had raised ridges that tapered towards the center but never met in the middle.


----------



## KUROK

The ones at the Smithsonian as part of the display there are not the original fans, to my knowledge.


----------



## SteveR

Check post #54. 

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=379617&highlight=bussard&page=4


----------



## Paulbo

The Smithsonian fan blades are not the originals. The image posted by Proper2 is of the CG Enterprise. Neither can be used as reference materials for lighting the warp nacelles.


----------



## SteveR

Besides, it's the _Heracles_!


----------



## Proper2

Paulbo said:


> The Smithsonian fan blades are not the originals. The image posted by Proper2 is of the CG Enterprise. Neither can be used as reference materials for lighting the warp nacelles.


I dunno, from what I've seen of the E on-screen, this CG image looks right. (Except for the signature, the copper deflector mandrel and the brightly lit, bow nav light a the top of the saucer.) If the lighted, spinning bussard of your model looks like that, why can't that be useful to indicate that your bussard is being "constructed correctly." That's an interesting spinning test. But does that preclude tapered blades? Do we really know for sure whether the original ones were straight or tapering when not in motion if both straight and tapered appear to taper when spinning? :drunk:


----------



## SteveR

Proper2 said:


> Do we really know for sure whether the original ones were straight or tapering when not in motion if both straight and tapered appear to taper when spinning? :drunk:


Tapered ones would look wider, more tapered than in that test. The test was done with straight ribs at the spin rate generally agreed upon in that thread, at (if I recall), a standard shutter angle (affecting amount of motion blur), and they look about right to me, regarding rib taper.


----------



## JHauser

RossW said:


> Excellent, thanks JHauser. So, the motor is connected to the Great Plains part via the silicone tube. This 'extended' drive shaft passes through the bearing and also connects to the plastic spinning dome.
> 
> Does that mean the bearing is there just to line everything up and hold the shaft securely? Please excuse my ignorance but this is an area of modelling I've never really explored before.


Yes sir.


----------



## shadowwolf

Just got one of these kits last weekend and was just checking it out today,and noticed one of my clear spinner domes has the part that goes on the motor that is warped.I read about a solution on straightening them out but for the life of me I can`t seem to find it.Other than that everything else is great.Also didn`t really realize the size of this kit until seeing it in person.Thanks.


----------



## beeblebrox

Post #262:

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?p=4422476#post4422476


----------



## shadowwolf

Thanks for the help.


----------



## gregviggiano

*Top forward nav lights on warp nacelles*

I drilled out the opening for the tiny forward navigation lights on top of each of the nacelles. The hole lines up nicely with the internal warp LED lights.

I would like to run a quarter inch piece of plastic fiber optic line to illuminate the tiny navigation lights.

Can anyone recommend where to get a little plastic fiber optic line?

Thanks,

Greg V


----------



## Skyking918

*Another Source for "Lighthouse" LEDs*

I found this US source for those "lighthouse"-style LEDS:

http://www.led-switch.com/

Click on the "2mm LED" button in the top row.


----------



## FyreTigger

They also have TOS style lighted toggles:
http://www.led-switch.com/Lighted Toggle Switch.htm

Could be fun for the switches.


----------



## Rahn

Not sure where you would get JUST a small piece, but even long lengths are reasonably priced.

Plus, you can get just the thickness you need.

http://www.fiberopticproducts.com/


----------



## Skyking918

Is it just me, or are subscriptions to this thread not working?


----------



## Super 7

Greg,

How much do you need in what diameter? *************


----------



## gregviggiano

Hi Paul - 

Good to hear from you. Three inches by .070 would do it.

Greg


----------



## RossW

Skyking918 said:


> Is it just me, or are subscriptions to this thread not working?


Not just you - haven't had an email in days.


----------



## Trekkriffic

Rahn said:


> Not sure where you would get JUST a small piece, but even long lengths are reasonably priced.
> 
> Plus, you can get just the thickness you need.
> 
> http://www.fiberopticproducts.com/


These guys are reasonably priced on fiber too. 
I bought 50 foot rolls in three sizes from them:

http://www.thefiberopticstore.com/


----------



## Gary7

There have been several ideas bandied about how to make the Bussard collectors look more correct. I had an idea that came to me today. My main complaint is the larger amber bulbs did not pulse. I wondered if the inner dome after frosting was painted every other section with clear amber paint when installed would give a pulsing affect I might be looking for. Anyone have an opinion on this idea?


----------



## SteveR

Gary7 said:


> I wondered if the inner dome after frosting was painted every other section with clear amber paint when installed would give a pulsing affect I might be looking for.


It might look more random, harder to follow with the eye as the dome spins, if the inner domes were painted with transparent, cloudy, random clear amber paint ...
... or maybe a mostly amber Swirladelic finish?


----------



## TrekFX

I use "flickering" amber LEDs harvested from LED tealights I got at Hobby Lobby for cheaper than dirt. Well, a little more than dirt.


----------



## ClubTepes

Gary7 said:


> There have been several ideas bandied about how to make the Bussard collectors look more correct. I had an idea that came to me today. My main complaint is the larger amber bulbs did not pulse. I wondered if the inner dome after frosting was painted every other section with clear amber paint when installed would give a pulsing affect I might be looking for. Anyone have an opinion on this idea?


Thats an interesting idea Paul,

In one of the build ups of the test light kit I did, I scraped some of the dull coat back off from the inner dome, trying to get a little fluctuation in the ambers.

The result wasn't so great.
But perhaps either your idea, or perhaps using some Tamiya 'Smoke' to create a 'dip' in illumination might be cool.

I thought of the smoke because it might be less noticeable when the lights are off and the model is simply on display.


----------



## starmanmm

RossW and Skyking918... neither have I gotten a response on this threads for days also. I just poped over and noticed that there were more responses.


----------



## John F

I just got an email now, Sunday 6:55 am, for a post from last Thursday.


----------



## Gary7

*A/B deck lighting*

Those of you lighting the kit but using the white dome & not showing the bridge, How did you mount the leds in the housing?


----------



## John F

I used the bridge piece and attached the led's to that


----------



## Skyking918

*Thread subscription*



starmanmm said:


> RossW and Skyking918... neither have I gotten a response on this threads for days also. I just poped over and noticed that there were more responses.


I reported the problem through the "Contact Us" link at the bottom of each page, but i also unsubscribed and re-subscribed. i don't know which fix worked, but I'm receiving notices of new postings again.


----------



## seattleguy

I checked out the Krylon frosted glass spray and it says it's not safe for plastic. So, how are you using it on the domes? Are you applying Future before the glass spray to protect the plastic?


----------



## starmanmm

Skyking918: Now I am getting the notices... don't know if what you did alerted them to something or not.

seattleguy: if you go back a few pages... this was discussed. Some people are using dull coat; fine steel wool, etc.


----------



## Skyking918

*Thread subscriptions*



starmanmm said:


> Skyking918: Now I am getting the notices... don't know if what you did alerted them to something or not.


Perhaps it did. Glad to know things are working again for you as well.


----------



## Rahn

seattleguy said:


> I checked out the Krylon frosted glass spray and it says it's not safe for plastic. So, how are you using it on the domes? Are you applying Future before the glass spray to protect the plastic?


I used Rust-oleum's Frosted Glass Spray (the one on the right).

The one on the left was steel wool and dull coat.


----------



## Gary7

Rahn said:


> I used Rust-oleum's Frosted Glass Spray (the one on the right).
> 
> The one on the left was steel wool and dull coat./QUOTE]
> 
> Did you apply it on the inside or out?


----------



## seattleguy

Oh, I see. I'll check for Rust-oleum instead of Krylon. Thanks!


----------



## Rahn

Gary7 said:


> Did you apply it on the inside or out?


The left was steel wool inside, dull coat outside (inner dome was opposite).

The right was Frosted Glass inside and out, as was the inner dome


----------



## Tiberious

I have trouble finding some of the paints discussed here. I had to but a case of Krylon Fusion Pewter Gray, I'd like to avoid this with the Krylon or Rustolium Frosted Glass (whichever will work with plastic I suppose.). Where are you guys getting it?

Thanks, some great ideas. I wonder if the steel wool with frosting is a cumulative effect or if they would be incompatible.

Tib


----------



## Tiberious

Rahn said:


> The left was steel wool inside, dull coat outside (inner dome was opposite).
> 
> The right was Frosted Glass inside and out, as was the inner dome


I tend to prefer the right, I think it would enhance the effect to have somewhat heavier frosting. Which do you prefer from a first person perspective?


----------



## Gary7

Tiberious said:


> I have trouble finding some of the paints discussed here. I had to but a case of Krylon Fusion Pewter Gray, I'd like to avoid this with the Krylon or Rustolium Frosted Glass (whichever will work with plastic I suppose.). Where are you guys getting it?
> 
> Thanks, some great ideas. I wonder if the steel wool with frosting is a cumulative effect or if they would be incompatible.
> 
> Tib


 I can't find the Pewter, ether.


----------



## RedShirt36

I ended up using HDA's approach to fixing the primary hull nav lights; see post #1205 from Rahn (thanks!). I am very pleased with the results, and HDA's videos have been a great help in other ways too. I purchased the Lighthouse LEDs from Model Man Tom's Modeler's Brand online store and his service was excellent.

Attached is a "before and after" photo. On the left is the result using the kit LED (it doesn't look like the green light is lit but it is), and on the right is the result using two Lighthouse LEDs, one replacing the post on the green lens and the other mounted so that the rectangular part is over the lens for the bottom light. The difference is like night and day. I also like the contrast between the warm white window LEDs and these cool white LEDs, as others have mentioned. I may dull the outboard light a little bit because it almost drowns out the top and bottom lights.

Thanks to everyone for your help and suggestions, both to my question and to all the others. I have to say that the model building online community is one of the nicest I've found.


----------



## RonH

*spray on frosting*

Hi guys. While I like the effect of the spray frosted dome, does anyone know if it might yellow over time ?


----------



## Rahn

RonH said:


> Hi guys. While I like the effect of the spray frosted dome, does anyone know if it might yellow over time ?


Aw crap. 

I niether considered that, nor have any idea.

I hope I can sleep tonight.


----------



## RonH

I'm totally sorry for causing stress. It's just that I made a really nice Revell 1/72 Space Shuttle that a friend wanted to borrow to display at an Air Force function a few months after finished, but a light coat of Testor's Dullcoat had turned my nice white hull a urine yellow.


----------



## starmanmm

Hey Rahn, your pic of the two domes is gone.


----------



## Rahn

Well, don't know what was up with that.

That pic wouldn't view on Photobucket either. Just gray.

I reuploaded it and fixed the link.

Now I've got to remember anywhere else I've posted it.


----------



## Arkons

I used Testors dull coat on my 1/350 refit and there's no yellowing issues. I can't remember how long ago that kit first came out but it's the original dull coating and the ship's still nice and white. No yellowing at all. I put two coats on.


----------



## beeblebrox

I've heard UV exposure can be the cause.


----------



## RonH

Well my shuttle was never in sunlight. There used to be a thread on here about how finishing coats yellowed over time. I just thought it would be great to find a product that stayed clear.

Edit: here's one - http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=196137&highlight=dullcoat+yellowing+over+time&page=2

Looks like yellowing is a problem when coating white paint, so you have no worries. Sorry for your loss of sleep. Actually I'm glad to find that out b/c I was wondering what to do with the nacelle domes.


----------



## crowe-t

RonH said:


> I'm totally sorry for causing stress. It's just that I made a really nice Revell 1/72 Space Shuttle that a friend wanted to borrow to display at an Air Force function a few months after finished, but a light coat of Testor's Dullcoat had turned my nice white hull a urine yellow.


I'm sorry to hear about your shuttle turning yellow. I also build shuttles. 

I never used Testors Dullcoat, but a friend advised me he had used it on a model and it yellowed over time. 

I use only Testors MM Acryl clear and Polly Scale acrylic clear sprayed on with an airbrush. These don't yellow.


----------



## kdaracal

I sat in front of my deluxe Enterprise all day today and didn't get a darn thing done! But enough about that. I'm thinking about painting the inside surfaces with light blocking paint, perhaps shiny Tamiya Bare Metal silver. Then doing the standard gray primer/flat black for additional light blocking on the exterior.

I thought I could protect the inner window glue points by using the discarded opaque windows as a paint mask. Perfect shape, right? But then I thought, "That will just leave a bunch of bare plastic for light bleed-through"

*Question: *

How can I paint the inside surface, simultaneously keeping the edges and window glue points free for glue adhesion?

I've conquered this before with various methods-ie Liquid mask, very thin tape. But this one has me stumped.

Please give me some suggestions!

Thanks!

Kinley


----------



## beeblebrox

After using various combinations of paint and metal tape inside, I would test the lights and still find leaks. Sounds odd, but I hit those little spots with Sharpie marker just prior to Krylon (dark) gray primer. :thumbsup:


----------



## mach7

I've only glued in the windows on the B/C deck.

I light blocked with a coat of black primer and then with white.

I fit the windows in, and then carefully put a drop if extra thick CA in a few spots. then with a yellow micro brush I applied a tiny bit of accelerator.

No hazing and it seems a good bond.



I'm thinking I'm going to try this on the rest of the lights, but I'm making this up as I go.


----------



## yamato

I posted a solution on YouTube on my channel on how to correct it. My Channel is 16Feet .Saying that I fixed one of them but the 2nd one it still wobbles. I had contacted Round 2 about it and so far it's been a month and I haven't received my replacement spinners yet.


----------



## yamato

*Confusion regarding windows and when to install*

Hey everyone been following the threads and boy are there many. I am currently building my TOS 350 Enterprise. So far all the main and sub assemblies have been painted with Krylon primer grey. The saucer halves exterior, the secondary exterior , neck exterior, nacelles and pylon exteriors painted primer grey. The interior of these sections sprayed with couple of coats of Krylon primer white. Good news there are barely any light leaks . Yay. 
My Bussards are assembled and working but the housings their in need to be painted. The windows are not installed at this point. I don't want pain on them and I don't want to spend a lot of time trying to mask them off from over spray. 
Should I install the windows before assembly of the hull halves , then paint , or paint the hull first - unassembled, without the windows, then install the windows and wiring , assemble, putty and repaint with the windows installed. 

I am hesitant at this point to proceed untill I can get this cleared up. 

Thanks


----------



## Opus Penguin

I painted inside the model black, then white, installed windows, glued halves together, puttied, masked windows, primed, then painted. Though I did it this way, it is not the only way. It is all a matter of preference on how you want to do it. I believe there is no right or wrong answer.


----------



## beeblebrox

Agreed. No matter how you choose to do it, there will almost always be light leaks to fix. My final ones involved using black watercolor at both the saucer and secondary hull neck joints.


----------



## Robman007

yamato said:


> Should I install the windows before assembly of the hull halves , then paint , or paint the hull first - unassembled, without the windows, then install the windows and wiring , assemble, putty and repaint with the windows installed.
> 
> I am hesitant at this point to proceed untill I can get this cleared up.
> 
> Thanks


If I were to build another one of these, I'd probably primer the inside of the ship, install lighting, assemble in sub sections (Warp, Secondary Hull, Primary Hull, neck), putty, sand, putty, sand, putty sand, then paint. I could have saved alot of time doing my kit up in that order. I kinda did the primer on inside and out, then installed lighting, then assembled, then putty, then painted again and again to eliminate light leak caused by putty work. Too much time wasted.

Also, if you can, leave the bussard collectors off the warp engines until you are done with painting the entire kit. 

Finally, I'm not sure about others, but if and when I do another, I plan on leaving out the shuttlebay. The lighting was not stellar unless you use some of the left over LED or custom rig it, and it just causes a crap gap issue with the tail end of the secondary hull.


----------



## Robman007

My build is almost complete. One the weathering phase right now, which I plan to do using Taimiya Weathering Master Sets B & C. Those have orange rust and rust along with soot and they work REALLY well on model kits, especially when they have been painted with Taimiya paints. Will post pictures when completed.


----------



## yamato

Robman007 said:


> If I were to build another one of these, I'd probably primer the inside of the ship, install lighting, assemble in sub sections (Warp, Secondary Hull, Primary Hull, neck), putty, sand, putty, sand, putty sand, then paint. I could have saved alot of time doing my kit up in that order. I kinda did the primer on inside and out, then installed lighting, then assembled, then putty, then painted again and again to eliminate light leak caused by putty work. Too much time wasted.
> 
> Also, if you can, leave the bussard collectors off the warp engines until you are done with painting the entire kit.
> 
> Finally, I'm not sure about others, but if and when I do another, I plan on leaving out the shuttlebay. The lighting was not stellar unless you use some of the left over LED or custom rig it, and it just causes a crap gap issue with the tail end of the secondary hull.


Thanks for the tip. I seem to be on the course suggested if you were to build another one. I been working on the warp engines first,pylons, neck , secondary hull then saucer section. I can't believe I am second guessing what to do but I guess I want to do such a good job and not mess it up. I been building RC combat battleships for over 20 yrs now so the precision of paint and detail is not required . I used to build plastics but with minimal equipment. Now I have everything I need and I am nervous about screwing it up. This forum is helping out a lot.


----------



## kdaracal

Is it possible to light the rear colored rectangular fantail "landing lights", while leaving the shuttle bay closed? I'd like to display the little shuttle craft and bay as a separate model.


----------



## Opus Penguin

I would guess so, assuming you have the clear fantail piece. You could use the opaque, but will have to drill out the lights.


----------



## RossW

kdaracal said:


> Is it possible to light the rear colored rectangular fantail "landing lights", while leaving the shuttle bay closed? I'd like to display the little shuttle craft and bay as a separate model.


I'm going to do the same thing that TrekWorks did on his fantail as shown in his video:






(around 5:55)


----------



## Robman007

yamato said:


> Thanks for the tip. I seem to be on the course suggested if you were to build another one. I been working on the warp engines first,pylons, neck , secondary hull then saucer section. I can't believe I am second guessing what to do but I guess I want to do such a good job and not mess it up. I been building RC combat battleships for over 20 yrs now so the precision of paint and detail is not required . I used to build plastics but with minimal equipment. Now I have everything I need and I am nervous about screwing it up. This forum is helping out a lot.


Speaking of messing up, I was on the final phases of my model and realised that I glued the wrong struts on the wrong warp engines. Those suckers are in there tight, so alas, the screw up reared it's ugly head. Nothing that a little bit of putty work and games workshop green stuff could not fix. Those engines are in there solid and straight.


----------



## Trekkriffic

Robman007 said:


> Speaking of messing up, I was on the final phases of my model and realised that I glued the wrong struts on the wrong warp engines. Those suckers are in there tight, so alas, the screw up reared it's ugly head. Nothing that a little bit of putty work and games workshop green stuff could not fix. Those engines are in there solid and straight.


So you had the screens on the inside of the pylons facing out instead of in? Did you end up slicing them out and cutting an opening out on the inside of the struts and swapping out the cutout sections?


----------



## Robman007

Trekkriffic said:


> So you had the screens on the inside of the pylons facing out instead of in? Did you end up slicing them out and cutting an opening out on the inside of the struts and swapping out the cutout sections?


No, I had that part correctly. If you look at the outside of the pylon they have those 3 windows. The windows should be facing the bow of the ship. They were facing the stern of my ship...it was a dumb mistake that I shouldn't have made considering I test fit my engines a million times. Didn't even notice until final construction..urgh. Basically my Port Engine was glued onto the strut for the starboard side and vice versa. They plugged in nice after some sanding, but it required a bit of green stuff work for the gap it produced at the end.

Here is an example of what I had to do to fix it. Just about complete with the build. Have to paint over my green stuff, apply the final decals to the secondary hull and dull coat the model.


----------



## Robman007

Although you can't tell from this angle. Nobody will really notice the gaff unless they are die hard 1701 fans....the engines came out straight as can be, taking into account the small gap the dumb shuttlebay caused.

I do plan on posting better pictures once the kit is done. I did these with my iphone 4s. My warp engines grills light up blue, and it looks really nice.


----------



## Trekkriffic

Does anyone know what the current draw in milliamps is for the Polar Lights bussard motors? I understand the power supply provides 850 MA so just wondering how much gets sucked up when the mortors are operating.


----------



## Spidey7

Alright, for all of you electrical engineers out there. I want to add some additional lighting to my kit. I know that each additional LED draws another 20 milliamps, and I know that the wall plug/power source that comes with the kit puts out a little under 1 amp, but that already goes to power the 95 LEDs that come with the kit as well as the bussard motors. If I were just to throw another 30-40 LEDs into the kit, I'd be over-taxing the power source. Is it as simple as just stepping up from the 1 amp to a 2 amp/12V wall plug? That would certainly give me all the milliamps that I need. Could there be any problems with plugging the kit into a 2 amp wall plug? Or since I'd be sucking up the extra amp with additional lighting, would it be harmless? Anyone out there have any advice about this that they'd be willing to share?


----------



## wjplenge

Upping the PS to a 2 amp isn't a problem, the rating is what it's capable of supplying not what it has to supply. You could run the light kit as is with a 2 amp supply without ill effects. That is assuming that the 30-40 additional LEDs your adding are on their own circuit, the lighting kit may not be able to supply the voltage (very different from amperage) to light them.


----------



## Spidey7

wjplenge said:


> Upping the PS to a 2 amp isn't a problem, the rating is what it's capable of supplying not what it has to supply. You could run the light kit as is with a 2 amp supply without ill effects. That is assuming that the 30-40 additional LEDs your adding are on their own circuit, the lighting kit may not be able to supply the voltage (very different from amperage) to light them.


So what you're saying is that I could just run the lighting kit straight off of the 2 amp power supply, and then wire the extra lighting into the power supply below where the kit connects on its own lead that is not connected in any way to the lighting kit? So basically two separate lighting circuits running simultaneously, just that they're running off of the same power supply? Am I understanding it correctly?


----------



## Trekkriffic

Spidey7 said:


> So what you're saying is that I could just run the lighting kit straight off of the 2 amp power supply, and then wire the extra lighting into the power supply below where the kit connects on its own lead that is not connected in any way to the lighting kit? So basically two separate lighting circuits running simultaneously, just that they're running off of the same power supply? Am I understanding it correctly?


The power supply in the kit supplies 850 MA as I have been told. I've read where modellers have had issues with the lights taking a while before they all come on which makes me think the lights and motors being on the same circuit are overtaxing the power supply. So I'm thinking of getting a 2 A power supply as well but wiring the bussard motors on a separate circuit from the lights with it's own rocker switch in the base. I have a switch that is red and black and would look just like the ones used on the show. I figure a 2 A power supply ought to have more than enough juice to do the motors and lights.


----------



## wjplenge

Spidey7 said:


> So what you're saying is that I could just run the lighting kit straight off of the 2 amp power supply, and then wire the extra lighting into the power supply below where the kit connects on its own lead that is not connected in any way to the lighting kit? So basically two separate lighting circuits running simultaneously, just that they're running off of the same power supply? Am I understanding it correctly?


Correct mostly, the only addition is optional but recommended. You'll likely want to isolate your new circuit from the existing kit or you run the risk of looking like the Refit light and sound edition (All the ships lights dimmed when the nav lights blinked on) This can be done by adding resistance at the branch to limit flow or a voltage regulator (which would be over kill is all the circuit is doing is driving LEDs.)

The rough theory is you're preventing either branch from drawing too much power there by lowering the voltage to the entire assembly. You're accomplishing that by supplying more than needed and using the resistor to ensure neither circuit can draw more than it's mathematical requirements. As an added bonus, a short in either branch will only effect that branch making locating assembly issues easier.


----------



## Trekkriffic

*I took a page out of JHauser's book and set about seeing what I could do to quiet the Polar Lights supplied bussard motors using his method of isolating the motors from the kit parts using foam. I wanted to see what I could find at local stores without using the internet. Altogether I spent about 20 bucks on what you see here...*

From my LHS I bought the following...

Two packs of ball bearings (4 total) as each bussard gets two bearings:



One pack of large threaded couplers:



Some silicon tubing:



Evergreen round plastic tubing and square brass tubing:



From the craft store I bought some adhesive backed foam sheet:



From the hardware store I bought a bag of polyethylene pipe insulating tubing:



The ball bearings I found were the perfect size for slipping inside the tunnel in the bussard collar where the kit designed the motor to fit. To keep the bearings from sliding out of the front of the tunnel I glued in a rectangular piece of styrene into the rectangular recess with a hole in the center for the Evergreen sleeve of the coupler to pass thru:



The threaded coupler was a little undersized for the I.D.of the bearings so it needed to be inserted into a plastic sleeve for a nice snug fit with the bearings. 13/64" O.D. Evergreen tubing was perfect to slide the large barrel of the threaded coupler into but was just a tad oversized to fit inside the bearings so I sanded about 1/64" off the diameter. The brass coupler was a little short on the back end of the barrel too since I had to slide the threaded end of the coupler far enough forward to thread up into the clear bussard spinner so a short length of 1/16" square brass tube was jammed into the hole in the larger end of the barrel. It had to be filed just a little to get a tight friction fit. Then a short piece of 5/64" O.D. Evergreen tubing was forced over the 1/16" square tubing and sanded to the same O.D. as the diameter of the back end of the coupler; this extended the length of the axle out the back side just enough for the silicon tubing that connected the coupler axle to the motor shaft to slide onto. Here is the completed axle with it's bearings in place at each end:



(Cont'd)


----------



## Trekkriffic

The axle was pushed into the tunnel with the forward bearing butting up against the styrene barrier in the rectangular recess. Then the clear bussard spinner was threaded onto the brass coupler leaving enough clearance for the spinner to rotate without touching the surface of the bussard lighting disc inserted into the bussard collar:



The lighting kit motor was about 1/4" smaller in diameter than the inside of the polyethylene pipe insulation so I wrapped two layers of 1/16" thick adhesive backed foam around the motor. The motor shaft was a little small to fit inside the silicon tubing which was being used as a universal joint to attach the threaded coupler to the motor shaft so a short lengthh of 5/32" O.D. Evergreen tubing was pressed over the shaft for a tight friction fit:



The motor with it's layers of adhesive backed foam was slid inside the pipe insualting tube cut to length with a razor knife. It fit nice and snug:



The completed assembly fit perfectly inside the front of the nacelle:



The nacelle halves were fit together and held in my hobby vice for powering up the spinner:




Here's a short video of the motor running at 12V so you can all see for yourselves how it sounds. Isolating the motor in this way did a lot to eliminate vibration and reduce engine noise to a low whirr. I anticipate a further incremental drop in the noise level once the bussard housing has been more firmly attached and the nacelle is glued together with it's end cap in place:



Since taking the video I have gone back and inserted small discs of 1/4" thick foam (non adhesive backed I also bought at the craft store) into the ends of the motor tubing thus further reducing any noise emitting from the ends of the motor. I also fit the LED lighting disc from the lighting kit to the back of the bussard lighitng post disc and powered it up. It fit in nicely (with a little sanding around it's edges) and lit up with no trouble. There was enough play back and forth with the threaded coupler to allow for plenty of clearance for the spinner since nothing related to the motor in it's foam tube and the threaded coupler was really glued in place it allowed for easy adjustments of the spinner position within the housing. I may go back and insert more sections of foam inside the nacelles to see if that causes futher noise reduction. So this is an ongoing experiment at this time but I have to say up to this point the results have been encouraging. 

*I hope the members here find this posting to be helpful in our quest for a quiet bussard experience. Thank you JHauser for providing the inspiration for this approach. 
My next experiment will involve a hybrid approach to the bussard lighting question which I have not seen mentioned up to this point. 

Please feel free to make comments and suggestions!*


----------



## KUROK

Really cool way of doing that!


----------



## mach7

Trekkriffic, 

Nice job!.

Do you have any concerns about heat build up?


----------



## SteveR

Yes, great job! I'll use your techniques when the time comes.

If heat's a problem, maybe tubing could be inserted into the foam, parallel to the nacelles, to carry the heat away ... But their ends would have to be open, which might defeat the purpose of the noise reduction. Hmm ...


----------



## Prowler901

Fine bit of brainstorming and scratchwork there. :thumbsup:


----------



## Trekkriffic

SteveR said:


> Yes, great job! I'll use your techniques when the time comes.
> 
> If heat's a problem, maybe tubing could be inserted into the foam, parallel to the nacelles, to carry the heat away ... But their ends would have to be open, which might defeat the purpose of the noise reduction. Hmm ...


I have actually given some thought to this; however, and am considering removing the existing adhesive foam layers and replacing the first layer with four or more longitudinal strips leaving air gaps in between which should help with heat dissipation. The second layer would be continuous like before. I'd only do this if I thought the heat was significant. If it's just slightly warm I don't see the need unless someone disagrees. I would still want foam on the ends though.


----------



## Trekkriffic

mach7 said:


> Trekkriffic,
> 
> Nice job!.
> 
> Do you have any concerns about heat build up?


I haven't actually held one of the motors in it's "naked" state to feel how much heat they generate when running. I'll do so at lunch and let you know my findings.


----------



## Trekkriffic

I'm toying with the idea of replacing the short legged LEDs on the bussard lighting board and soldering longer-legged LEDs in their place so that the LEDs project above the light "towers" under the spinner. I've already confirmed that the innnermost lef of each LED on the board is the negative lead. I could use either white or colored LEDs for the replacements but the reisistance value required for the ultra-bright wide angle diffused red and orange/amber LEDs I have on the way to me from Lighthouse LEDs require 560 ohm resistors while the white, blue, green, and pink LEDs require 470 ohms. I am assuming the input voltage is 12V to each LED. Each appears to have it's own resistor on the backside of the board. 
Can anyone confirm that this is the case, that the input voltage is indeed 12V per LED? Or is it 12V to the non-blinking LEDs and 3V to the blinkers from the 555 chip? 
If it's the former, I plan to try adding a second 100 ohm resistor to the cathode leg of each red and orange/amber LED, assuming it would fit inside the light tower. 
My undertsanding is you can add resistors in series this way in lieu of removing an existing resistor and swapping it out for a higher impedance value. 
If this is not feasible my alternative plan would be to use all white LEDs and color them. Or I might just not color them if my other idea works which involves hollowing out the colored plastic teardrop shaped parts included with the light kit and inserting the LEDs directly inside of them. So I would replace the five taller, narrower towers with shorter wider ones that would allow the LEDs to pass thru and project out the top. For the exisitng shorter, wider towers I would either replace them or file them out to widen them. Then the teardrop shaped bits would slide on over the tops of the LEDs providing brighter illumination.


----------



## RossW

Trekkriffic said:


> I'm toying with the idea of replacing the short legged LEDs on the bussard lighting board and soldering longer-legged LEDs in their place so that the LEDs project above the light "towers" under the spinner. I've already confirmed that the innnermost lef of each LED on the board is the negative lead. I could use either white or colored LEDs for the replacements but the reisistance value required for the ultra-bright wide angle diffused red and orange/amber LEDs I have on the way to me from Lighthouse LEDs require 560ohm resistors while the white, blue, green, and pink LEDs require 470 ohms. I am assuming the input voltage is 12V to each LED. Each appears to have it's own resistor on the backside of the board.
> Can anyone confirm that this is the case, that the input voltage is indeed 12V per LED? Or is it 12V to the non-blinking LEDs and 3V to the blinkers from the 555 chip?
> If it's the former, I plan to try adding a second 100 ohm resistor to the cathode leg of each red and orange/amber LED, assuming it would fit inside the light tower.
> My undertsanding is you can add resistors in series this way in lieu of removing an existing resistor and swapping it out for a higher impedance value.
> If this is not feasible my alternative plan would be to use all white LEDs and color them. Or I might just not color them if my other idea works which involves hollowing out the colored plastic teardrop shaped parts included with the light kit and inserting the LEDs directly inside of them. So I would replace the five taller, narrower towers with shorter wider ones that would allow the LEDs to pass thru and project out the top. For the exisitng shorter, wider towers I would either replace them or file them out to widen them. Then the teardrop shaped bits would slide on over the tops of the LEDs providing brighter illumination.


I did some voltmeter measurements on the boards and the running lights/formation lights/sensor array lights are getting 3V (dropped down via a resistor from the 5V which powers the PIC IC chip). I think 12V is only used for the LED strip lighting.

As for the lights on the bussard board, I haven't measured those. Check to see if there is a zener diode on the board (copper with a black stripe, shaped like a diode) - if so, then it's using the same voltage divider as the other boards which drop the 12V down to 5V for the PIC IC which controls the blinking LEDs. Then, each LED will have a resistor to drop that 5V down to 3V.

BTW, I'm doing exactly what you're thinking - I felt the light was too dim coming through the plastic bulbs so I sawed off the posts and have my LEDs stick up a little higher through that piece (in the hope that with them being higher and the amber LEDs angled towards the centre slightly that I'll be able to get some reflections off of the prismatic mylar/mirror pieces).


----------



## RossW

... and I **love** your motor solution! I would love to see some more detailed photos of the motor/bearing/threaded rod with bits of tubes attached.


----------



## Trekkriffic

RossW said:


> I did some voltmeter measurements on the boards and the running lights/formation lights/sensor array lights are getting 3V (dropped down via a resistor from the 5V which powers the PIC IC chip). I think 12V is only used for the LED strip lighting.
> 
> As for the lights on the bussard board, I haven't measured those. Check to see if there is a zener diode on the board (copper with a black stripe, shaped like a diode) - if so, then it's using the same voltage divider as the other boards which drop the 12V down to 5V for the PIC IC which controls the blinking LEDs. Then, each LED will have a resistor to drop that 5V down to 3V.


I suppose it really doesn't matter since the voltage has already been reduced to 3V by the time it gets to the LEDs on the board. All I need for the red and orange/amber LEDs is to reduce the voltage from 3 to 2 volts which would require a 56 ohm resistor. I'll be cutting the existing LEDs off close to the LEDs leaving the existing legs projecting above the board. Then I plan to attach a heat sink clip to the legs close to the board leaving the tips of the legs to solder the new LEDs to. This should avoid any concerns of heat causing damage to the board although I plan to pre-tin the legs on the board and the new LEDs first which should make the re-soldeirg go pretty quick. And,of course, I'll have to be careful not to allow any stray static electricity to damage the chip during this whole process. This is all kind of jury-rigging I know but if it works I think it will be a real improvement. It will bring much brighter lights above the surface of the tower board with the use of ultra-bright wide angle LEDs which will alllow me to more easily employ a method for scatttering the light around within the dome. And I'm also thinking of something to do with mini-rhinestones.


----------



## RossW

I can't wait to see some photos/videos of this bit, too!


----------



## Trekkriffic

RossW said:


> ... and I **love** your motor solution! I would love to see some more detailed photos of the motor/bearing/threaded rod with bits of tubes attached.


Remember Ross... you asked for it!

The threaded coupler is not long enough so you need to add some length on the large end to allow for attaching the silicon sleeve that mates with the motor shaft. 

First, get some 1/16" x 1/16" brass tubing:



Cut it to about 13/16" long and file the edges on one end to fit just inside the hole in the large barrel of the coupler. No need to be pretty:



Force the brass tubing into the barrel of the threaded coupler. Use a hammer to get a tight crush fit:



Cut a 7/16" long piece of 5/64" O.D. Evergreen plastic tubing. Use a round needle file (or a 1/16" drill bit) to enlarge the inner diameter just enough to get the square brass tubing started then hammer the plastic tubing down onto the brass tubing until it's flush with the end of the coupler:



The threaded coupler with it's extension:



Next, cut a 5/8" long piece of 13/64" O.D. Evergreen tubing and slide it over the 5/64" tubing leaving about 3/16" of the smaller diameter tubing sticking out the end. You will need to sand the 5/64" tubing so it's the same diameter as the coupler barrel to get it to fit:

Insert the threaded end of the coupler into your dremel's chuck and tighten. Sand the 13/64" tubing as it spins until you reach the correct diameter to fit inside the bearings. You will have one bearing at each end. This will require sanding, test fitting, and more sanding to get a nice tight fit. Be careful not to take off too much plastic all at once: 



The completed axle is 1-11/16" long. I drew up a quick diagram with some of the important measurements:


----------



## Trekkriffic

Trekkriffic said:


> I haven't actually held one of the motors in it's "naked" state to feel how much heat they generate when running. I'll do so at lunch and let you know my findings.


I ran one of the motors for about 5 minutes and did not notice any appreciable heat being generated. Under load it may run a little warmer but I don't think heat is a major concern. 
Using the foam pipe sleeves and two layers of 1/16" foam sheet along with the straightness of threaded coupler axle spinning smoothly inside the bearing tunnel should make for a well aligned, low load assembly which should avoid any unwanted stress caused by misalignment of the motorshaft and axle. 
I observed no wobble in my test when the spinner is in motion and the bussard collar is centered securely relative to the axis of the nacelle. Of course, fortunately for me, my spinners arrived straight and true with no warpage or my test would not have gone so well.


----------



## RossW

For the nacelle boards, the PIC microcontroller chip is an SMD so they actually have 2 zener diode voltage splitters - one to drop the 12V in to 4V for driving the LEDs and then another zener diode splitter after that to drop a further 0.5V to 3.5V for the low-power SMD PIC.

For the LEDs, there is a 2.80V drop across the LEDs and 1.20V across each series resistor.


----------



## Trekkriffic

So, if I am understanding you, The red (flashing) and orange/amber (constant) LEDs, which require 2 volts would be getting 2.8V from the board which would require a 47 ohm resistor to step down to 2V ?


----------



## RossW

Trekkriffic said:


> So, if I am understanding you, The red (flashing) and orange/amber (constant) LEDs, which require 2 volts would be getting 2.8V from the board which would require a 47 ohm resistor to step down to 2V ?


That's exactly right. You need to solder in a 47 ohm resistor (use a 1/8W one - much smaller than the usual 1/4 or 1/2W ones) in series with one of the LED's leads (doesn't matter which one).


----------



## Trekkriffic

RossW said:


> That's exactly right. You need to solder in a 47 ohm resistor (use a 1/8W one - much smaller than the usual 1/4 or 1/2W ones) in series with one of the LED's leads (doesn't matter which one).


Thanks for the confirmation Ross. It will be a tight fit so 1/8W it is!


----------



## tony1tech

*ion pod flash rate*

Hi, everyone I was working on my enterprise today and I was wondering if ion pod leds should be flashing at a faster rate than the red /green/white navigational lights, seems I've seen a few videos of some builders model where ion pods are flashing at same rate as nav. lights & others that ion pods are flashing very quickly like a strobe if anyone knows which is correct it would be most appreciated thanks in advance. Tony


----------



## RossW

tony1tech said:


> Hi, everyone I was working on my enterprise today and I was wondering if ion pod leds should be flashing at a faster rate than the red /green/white navigational lights, seems I've seen a few videos of some builders model where ion pods are flashing at same rate as nav. lights & others that ion pods are flashing very quickly like a strobe if anyone knows which is correct it would be most appreciated thanks in advance. Tony


Yes, they should. I've looked at a lot of clips (limiting to those I'm fairly certain have not been sped up or slowed down) and the ion pod/formation light blinks twice in a second. This is one of the only real complaints about the PL lighting kit I have (I'm doing my own lighting circuit, though)


----------



## tony1tech

*ion pod flash rate*

Thanks alot Ross I had a feeling they were different rates I've built all my own flasher circuit with a 555 timer and actually built a timer with 2 flashes per second was getting ready to install and close model up when I noticed the difference in posted videos, obviously it was the polar light lighting kit I had seen w/incorrect flash rate.Thanks again. Tony


----------



## RossW

tony1tech said:


> Thanks alot Ross I had a feeling they were different rates I've built all my own flasher circuit with a 555 timer and actually built a timer with 2 flashes per second was getting ready to install and close model up when I noticed the difference in posted videos, obviously it was the polar light lighting kit I had seen w/incorrect flash rate.Thanks again. Tony


No worries. I'm using PIC microcontrollers for my circuit so I can easily adjust the on/off rates (for the running lights, I have a button which lets you select from the 3 rates I've observed: 1.5 sec on/0.5 sec off, 0.5 sec on/1.5 sec off (I think this is what the MR E used) and 0.787 sec on/0.833 sec off)


----------



## Trekkriffic

Got my shipment of LEDs and resistors from Lighthouse LEDs yesterday. 
I bought 4 of the 0805 SMD warm/soft white LEDs and 4 0603 SMD cool/clear white LEDs. I also got 5 ft of grey and 5 ft of white Kynar 30 AWG wire. 
I'm thinking the 4 warm white SMD LEDs would work well for lightig the roof of the shuttle bay. They are amazingly small and flat which is what you need as my understanding is there isn't a lot of clearance between the clear piece and the hull. I'd mount 2 on each side of the centerline. I'd attach the 30 AWG wires to the LEDs and splice them onto the wires coming from the board. No resistors needed as the current is already stepped down to 3V which is what the SMD's need. 
Has anyone else tried these for lighting the ceiling?


----------



## Trekkriffic

Trekkriffic said:


> Thanks for the confirmation Ross. It will be a tight fit so 1/8W it is!


Went to Fry's Electronics at lunch today and they were all out of the 47 ohm 1/8W resistors so I bought three 6-packs of 57 ohm 1/8W resistors. Hopefully these will work. They are plenty small. The LEDs are rated as Ultra-Bright so, even if the higher impedance dims them slightly, they should hopefully still be plenty bright. 
I also found an old style green lighted panel mount rocker switch rated for 12V. It looks very much like the rocker switches we are so familiar with from the old show. This will be the main power switch in the base. I already had a red one which I have to check and see if it's the same size. If it is I can use that to switch on the motors which will be on their own circuit. If it's a diffferent size I'll just go back and get another green one. 
I also found, after talking to 2 sales people, a 4-pin mini-DIN power plug (solder cup) and a 4-socket mini-DIN panel mount jack (solder cup) that the plug fits perfectly. I'll use that to connect 2 positive and 2 negative wires into the model so I can have 2 separate bcircuits for the lights and the motors wth the switches mounted in the base. 
All-in-all a very productive visit to Fry's.


----------



## Trekkriffic

I hope people don't think I'm trying to monopolize this thread. If so, I can always start my own.


----------



## mach7

Not me!
Great info!


----------



## Kevin Reilly

*Warp nacelle domes...*

Hi, "newbie' here...

Like many of you, I think I have been waiting a model like this one for my entire adult life!
I accidentally found the model on-line, wgich lead me to this site: Fantastic is all I can say!

I too am probably OCD when it comes to details, and like many of you, the question of the authentic look of the spinning domes has bothered me for years: The TV-shown 11-footer's domes are very diffused, and the colors seem to pulsate with an intended fluctuating and nebulous-look to them. 
The problem with all the attempts I've seen is that the bulbs and the blades of the inner "fan" domes are far too defined in appearance on the model's domes.
Frosting of the domes has helped somewhat, but more "blurring" is needed in my opinion.

I have a idea, and maybe someone here can run with it if it makes any sense:

The taillights of any automobile are typically assembled out of several layers of colored plastic, not just one smooth red lense.
The "inner" lense is almost always a very heavily-surfaced lense. Lots of square ridges and many reflective yet transparent surfaces at all angles. Not sure if this is called "fractal" or not.
This has the effect of obscuring the actual bulb when viewing the light from the outside. Instead it is just a smooth, evenly-lit appearance of the entire outside lense.
I think this may give us the look we are looking for on the warp domes.

If some kind of transparent surface like that could be attached to the inside of the outer dome, or maybe the inside spinning dome (or both), this may give us the diffuse look we are all seeking.

Thanks again, I' love this board! I'm glad to be here.


----------



## SteveR

Hmm ... Like coating the inside of the spinning inner dome with a thick clear goop, then imprinting a texture on that goop before it hardens completely?


----------



## JHauser

Kevin Reilly said:


> Hi, "newbie' here...
> 
> Like many of you, I think I have been waiting a model like this one for my entire adult life!
> I accidentally found the model on-line, wgich lead me to this site: Fantastic is all I can say!
> 
> I too am probably OCD when it comes to details, and like many of you, the question of the authentic look of the spinning domes has bothered me for years: The TV-shown 11-footer's domes are very diffused, and the colors seem to pulsate with an intended fluctuating and nebulous-look to them.
> The problem with all the attempts I've seen is that the bulbs and the blades of the inner "fan" domes are far too defined in appearance on the model's domes.
> Frosting of the domes has helped somewhat, but more "blurring" is needed in my opinion.
> 
> I have a idea, and maybe someone here can run with it if it makes any sense:
> 
> The taillights of any automobile are typically assembled out of several layers of colored plastic, not just one smooth red lense.
> The "inner" lense is almost always a very heavily-surfaced lense. Lots of square ridges and many reflective yet transparent surfaces at all angles. Not sure if this is called "fractal" or not.
> This has the effect of obscuring the actual bulb when viewing the light from the outside. Instead it is just a smooth, evenly-lit appearance of the entire outside lense.
> I think this may give us the look we are looking for on the warp domes.
> 
> If some kind of transparent surface like that could be attached to the inside of the outer dome, or maybe the inside spinning dome (or both), this may give us the diffuse look we are all seeking.
> 
> Thanks again, I' love this board! I'm glad to be here.


I've been trying to address this same problem. After watching several videos of the studio model, I've noticed that there is more white light and the colors are more diffused. If you frost the outer dome and the inner "fan" dome to much, the colored light are too dim, too little diffusion and you see the bulbs. My opinion is that the flashing LED's aren't bright enough to pass enough light through the dark colors of the smaller round bulbs provided in the kit. 

Through a lot of trail-and-error, I came up with something that I feel gets me closer to the original effect. To add the white light I drilled through the center of the 5 amber bulbs that are used with the always-on LED's and inserted the smaller clear round bulbs provided in the kit. This gives the overall amber color with 5 white "hot spots" projected on the outer dome. 

Next, I knew I had to get more of the flashing colored light projected wider on the outer dome. To do this I sanded down and drilled out the higher points that held the smaller round bulbs in place to be able to accept the larger "Christmas light" bulbs. I tried using the colored bulbs first. Even though they are larger then the bulbs they replace, their colors are to dark for the stock LED's to make that much of an improvement. The solution was to use the clear bulbs in the kit and use Tamiya translucent paint (red, blue and green). I kept coating them until I got the brightness/color saturation that I was most satisfied with. Now instead of seeing a defined small colored flash, it's now fills a much larger area and closer to the center. Also because the light output is greater, I could add more diffusion.

I wasn't happy with the stock inner "fan" domes either. The plastic shaft left too much of a dark area in the center and was not very concentric on the outer edge. I modified my original design so that I could mount a clear hemispherical dome with a small torx head screw. It leaves a smaller more precise foot print when the dome is lit. I remove the shaft from the stock inner "fan" domes to experiment with and to play with some tapered blade widths using foiled tape. I have these domes coming and plan on spraying the blades on with Tamiya smoke paint.

http://www.kitkraft.biz/product.php?productid=2568&cat=1263&page=2


----------



## JHauser

Also, if any one was interested in lighting the small navigational lights on the Bussards, I added a LED to the back of the circuit board to do it. It doesn't flash but it illuminates the navigational lights well.


----------



## Trekkriffic

JHauser said:


> Also, if any one was interested in lighting the small navigational lights on the Bussards, I added a LED to the back of the circuit board to do it. It doesn't flash but it illuminates the navigational lights well.


I'm not running the motors off the bussard board leads so I'm going to use those wires to power a white LED under each nacelle nav light to light up a little red or green dome. I'll just need to add a 470 ohm resistor since the wires are meant to provide 12 volts to the motors.


----------



## Trekkriffic

Kevin Reilly said:


> Hi, "newbie' here...
> 
> Like many of you, I think I have been waiting a model like this one for my entire adult life!
> I accidentally found the model on-line, wgich lead me to this site: Fantastic is all I can say!
> 
> I too am probably OCD when it comes to details, and like many of you, the question of the authentic look of the spinning domes has bothered me for years: The TV-shown 11-footer's domes are very diffused, and the colors seem to pulsate with an intended fluctuating and nebulous-look to them.
> The problem with all the attempts I've seen is that the bulbs and the blades of the inner "fan" domes are far too defined in appearance on the model's domes.
> Frosting of the domes has helped somewhat, but more "blurring" is needed in my opinion.
> 
> I have a idea, and maybe someone here can run with it if it makes any sense:
> 
> The taillights of any automobile are typically assembled out of several layers of colored plastic, not just one smooth red lense.
> The "inner" lense is almost always a very heavily-surfaced lense. Lots of square ridges and many reflective yet transparent surfaces at all angles. Not sure if this is called "fractal" or not.
> This has the effect of obscuring the actual bulb when viewing the light from the outside. Instead it is just a smooth, evenly-lit appearance of the entire outside lense.
> I think this may give us the look we are looking for on the warp domes.
> 
> If some kind of transparent surface like that could be attached to the inside of the outer dome, or maybe the inside spinning dome (or both), this may give us the diffuse look we are all seeking.
> 
> Thanks again, I' love this board! I'm glad to be here.


Michaels craft store sells clear or colored faceted rhinestones in all sizes some of them as small as 1/16" across. They are mirrored with some kind of silver material on the backside but if you could remove the silver to make them clear all the way thru you might be able to glue them to the inside of the dome. I used one of them on my Leif Ericson build for the bridge sensor dome and I think I just sanded the silver off. I would think they would send light everywhere as the domes spun. Talk about light dispersion!


----------



## Trekkriffic

JHauser said:


> To add the white light I drilled through the center of the 5 amber bulbs that are used with the always of LED's and inserted the smaller clear round bulbs provided in the kit. This gives the overall amber color with 5 white "hot spots" projected on the outer dome.
> 
> http://www.kitkraft.biz/product.php?productid=2568&cat=1263&page=2


*Now that is pretty clever I must say!*


----------



## davejames

Hi there. Sorry if this has already been addressed countless times, but I just had a question about those tiny, random little portholes on the bottom of the saucer. 

Like a lot of other windows on the 11-footer, they only appear on the starboard side. But while plenty of other windows have been mirrored over (in this model kit and others), those ones never seem to be. 

Is there some reason why not? Because to me it just makes the underside look seriously unbalanced. I'm tempted to at least drill a _couple _extra windows on the other side, at least towards the rear where they wouldn't be too obvious. Has anybody else done this? I mean we're already adding in extra windows that weren't on the model, so I'm wondering what the reluctance would be about it.


----------



## Jhjorlando

Do you have any video? I'd love to see this in action!


----------



## JHauser

Are you referring to me? If so, it will be a while. I need to play with the new inner domes first and then learn how to post a video. But I will when I can.


----------



## Jhjorlando

Yes, sorry. Still getting used to using this forum. But, yes, really looking forward to what it looks like when you're done. I haven't started my build yet, watching all the YouTube vids I can find and wanting to get it right the first time. At the risk of starting another thread, I think the lower saucer grid lines are too intense and I'm thinking about filling them. Have you (or any one else reading this), addressed this?


----------



## SteveR

Look for the "grid lines part 2" thread in this forum.


----------



## Kevin Reilly

*Bussard dome lights: continued...*

Some thoughts for the experts:

Is there some kind of transparent film available to photographers that might be applied to the inside of either the fan-domes or the outer domes that gives a diffused or some kind of altered look?

I'm thinking of thin flexible lense filter films...something that may be attached to the domes.

Maybe some polarizing film. I know you need to layers of polarizing film, and as one changes it orientation to the other, the appearance loking through them changes.
If one was attachd to the fan-dome, and another to the inside of the outer-dome, as the fan-dome spins there may be some kind of distortion effect?

I am also thinking of the polar-motion effect used on the spinning communicator dials and Spock's station on the bridge: Is that an effect that may give a more authentic look?


----------



## SteveR

How about the film you stick on bathroom windows for privacy?

As for sheets of diffusion for film/photography, Rosco and Lee make a few. But they may be too sturdy and thick, being designed to be clipped in front of a light source.

You could Google "polarizing film sheet" to find the stuff used in science labs.


----------



## Kevin Reilly

*Bussard thoughts...*

I have just now noticed a "flaw" on the 1/350 TOS Big E (maybe on _all _versions of the TOS...).

The Bussard outer domes on the 1/350 are a true hemisphere...exactly half of a sphere.
However, if you look closely at screen caps of the actual 11' miniature (before any restorations were completed), the domes are more than a hemisphere...once past the hemispherical "equator" the domes continue in a cylindrical shape for a noticeable distance.

Has anyone noticed this before?


----------



## TrekFX

I think it's an optical illusion. (see attached, and allow for some parallax for the near edge)


----------



## Moderbuilderzero

Trekkriffic said:


> Got me a tube of *Perfect Plastic Putty *at my LHS this week...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> made by Deluxe Materials in the UK. It's a water based, very fine surface putty designed for plastic models with no shrinkage, good adhesion, and sandability (or so the instructions say).
> 
> Went on Youtube and watched the video:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stLzShlnrEk
> 
> Read a few reviews and they gave it high marks. Sounds like the perfect thing to fill those gridlines.
> 
> Just curious if anyone here has tried the stuff.


Trek,
Where can you find this stuff? Looks perfect for filling in the seams around those pesky areas we all encounter. Thanks for the video, and any supplier info you can offer.

Oops! Never mind...I found it readily on Amazon and Evilbay. Gonna pick some up and try it out! Thanks again for the info!


----------



## Griffworks

Let's keep this thread On-Topic, please.


----------



## gimijimi

deleted.


----------



## gimijimi

*Stopping motor noise, increase light inside nacelles, and stop oscillation*

Wow about what you did.

I took another approach.

I just hollowed out the support area that would be housing the motor just enough to accept the motor wrapped in electrical tape. Just separating the plastic from the metal of the motor stopped the motor noise. The electrical tape is a great buffer. That took care of the problem.

The pros at Deslu installed broken mirrors inside their nacelles of the original studio Enterprise (the one on display at the Smithsonian). I tried to duplicate this effect with the super thin mirrors found at REI. 

I bought a couple of camping mirrors form REI. I made a drilling template off the light mount section. After drilling out the holes, I was able to overlay the mirror onto the light mount.

This accomplished two things.

1. It increased the light going on inside the buzzard collectors.

By painting the light mounts automotive chrome the added reflectivity was uniform.

2. The outside diameter of the mirror insert matched exactly the inside diameter of the rotating plastic dome. This cured the uneven turning of the dome and stopped the oscillation making for unform rotation along the axis.

I just dabbed a little silicone on the two surfaces coming in contact with each other to cut down on any friction.

I am still working on ways to get the right blend of texture and transparency in the domes. Don's Light and Magic had perfect nacelle domes that came with the accuratizing kit for the 22-inch cutaway Enterprise. Just perfect. I have a pair of those and am using them for a baseline. I have purchased some clear domes to practice with.


----------



## Trekkriffic

I'd be interested in knowing where I could get some clear domes to practice with as well.


----------



## kdaracal

I still gotta be convinced that using super-fine steel wool on the dome interior, and Testor's Clear Dull Coat on the exterior will produce an acceptable look. Someone in the earlier part of this thread mentioned attaching a ball of steel wool to your Dremel tool and spinning the steel wool against the inside dome surface to get a nice, even effect. Love to hear ideas on this.........


----------



## FyreTigger

kdaracal said:


> I still gotta be convinced that using super-fine steel wool on the dome interior, and Testor's Clear Dull Coat on the exterior will produce an acceptable look. Someone in the earlier part of this thread mentioned attaching a ball of steel wool to your Dremel tool and spinning the steel wool against the inside dome surface to get a nice, even effect. Love to hear ideas on this.........


I started with steel wool and didn't like the look. I could see detectable scratches. Then I found Scotch Brite brand synthetic steel wool at the hardware store. I used the gray which corresponds to 000 steel wool. It produced quite even results. I'm happy with it.


----------



## John P

Is there a good way to test the lighting of, say, one nacelle dome, before assembly? Can I just touch the leads to a 9V battery or something? I just wanna see how the lights look with the foil I used on one dome as I assemble it. But I'm electrically challenged and I don't want to burn the circuit board up or something.


----------



## Trekkriffic

John P said:


> Is there a good way to test the lighting of, say, one nacelle dome, before assembly? Can I just touch the leads to a 9V battery or something? I just wanna see how the lights look with the foil I used on one dome as I assemble it. But I'm electrically challenged and I don't want to burn the circuit board up or something.


Yep. That'll work. Just make sure you have an appropriately sized resistor on the short leg (negative cathode) of the LED.


----------



## RossW

John P said:


> Is there a good way to test the lighting of, say, one nacelle dome, before assembly? Can I just touch the leads to a 9V battery or something? I just wanna see how the lights look with the foil I used on one dome as I assemble it. But I'm electrically challenged and I don't want to burn the circuit board up or something.


Are you using PL's lighting kit? If so, the nacelle circuit board connects to the secondary hull's PCB via one of the 12V connectors; the nacelle board has the SMD resistors to drop the voltage for the chip to drive the blinking LEDs and also for the non-blinking LEDs. So, if you want to test if the lights come on and the motor spins you can indeed use a 9V battery but the motor probably won't spin as fast as it will with 12V.

No other external resistors are needed.


----------



## John P

Trekkriffic said:


> Yep. That'll work. Just make sure you have an appropriately sized resistor on the short leg (negative cathode) of the LED.


I don't even know what that means. 



RossW said:


> Are you using PL's lighting kit? If so, the nacelle circuit board connects to the secondary hull's PCB via one of the 12V connectors; the nacelle board has the SMD resistors to drop the voltage for the chip to drive the blinking LEDs and also for the non-blinking LEDs. So, if you want to test if the lights come on and the motor spins you can indeed use a 9V battery but the motor probably won't spin as fast as it will with 12V.
> 
> No other external resistors are needed.


Ah! Thanks. :wave:


----------



## John P

Okay, using a 9V battery, with only the bussard and motor wired together, the motor turned and the amber lights came on, but the blinkies didn't come on. Is that maybe controlled from the main board in the hull? Or did I screw something up?


----------



## JHauser

You need 12v for the lights to flash.


----------



## RossW

You could always use the 12V power supply from the kit and plug it into the wires labelled 'B' - then you can twist the bare wire ends of 'B' to the leads from the nacelle disks.


----------



## John P

Okay, that's a relief.


----------



## Hunch

RossW said:


> You could always use the 12V power supply from the kit and plug it into the wires labelled 'B' - then you can twist the bare wire ends of 'B' to the leads from the nacelle disks.


Are you saying straight from the 12V wall jack or jumping off of the PCB? I get confusticated easily!:freak::tongue:


----------



## John P

I tried it from the 12V power pack plugged into the wall, connected right to the nacelle lights, and it works fine that way. Tanks. guys.


----------



## RossW

Hunch said:


> Are you saying straight from the 12V wall jack or jumping off of the PCB? I get confusticated easily!:freak::tongue:


Either way. Each PCB (secondary hull, primary hull or the nacelle disks) runs off of 12V.


----------



## gregviggiano

*Nacelle lighting idea*

Another idea to light the nacelles is to use a disassembled Ikea product:

http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/50192073/ 

The LED light comes in 3 1-foot sections for $14.99 - each section has 7 LEDs and can be powered from the Polar Lights lighting kit transformer.


----------



## Kevin Reilly

*Perfect bussard/ warp dome effect?*

It appears that Ken Hiegel may have come up with the gestation of the perfect idea to solve the scaling problem with the LED domes. His diamond-shaped "suncatcher" inner lense made his LED-only set-up look great.

I'm thinking if someone could create an inner spinning diamond-shaped dome with fanblade markings on it, that may give the randomness to the light effects we are all looking for?

Anyone here able to produce such an item? (I know i'm not!)


----------



## vulcangodoffire

*motor noise*

hello all. this would be my very first post tho.. ive been a lurker for some times now. I've been reading the threads especially this one and have gone from page one to here. i notice a lot of discussion about reducing the motor noise.
id like to share my experience.
i just got finished building my buddy a 22" cutaway version. i did not have the luxury of a molded part to hold the motors. i therefor made my own solution. my own drive shafts etc..etc etc. i combined those with the wadelwarp boards.. which i have to say even though im building my 350 with the stock light kit the WWB's are a far superior effect(minus the center led)
i used 2 matching geared motors and like i said built my own drive shafts form a combination of aluminum tubing and bras tubing one hole dead center of the boards and there you have it.... all of that to get to the point of noise.
even thought the nacelles are much smaller on the 22" than on the 350 scale they still amplifies the sound .
i used to do cars as in rebuild classic cars and do sound systems. 
there is a special sound dampening material called dynamat even 1/16" thick will kill the sound to next to nothing. i wrapped one time around the motors each and precision cut a piece for the front and back of each motor accounting for the shaft and the contact leads at the other end. 
i have to have my ear ON the nacelle just to hear anything. and as far as heat goes none of these little motors can produce any amount of heat that could cause issues even at 12v
i haven't had the chance to get to setting up the motors for the 350 yet and i think im going to replace them anyway whit what i used in the 22" simply because the gear reduction on them is PLASTIC!!! plastic gear reductions make more noise than a quality machined mettle reduction with lube. 
anyway that's my 2c worth for the issue of sound if anybody is interested..


----------



## RossW

I'd asked Gary about the nacelle pylon screens as after I'd glued on the PE ones I realized they were siting just above the surface of the pylon, whereas Gary said they should be slightly recessed. Being the ridiculously anal guy about the Enterprise that I am, I redid the pylons but this time instead of flipping over the kit-supplied plastic inserts I bought some .040" styrene sheet and cut them to match the size of the inserts:



After gluing in the .040" bits and puttying in the cracks with my artist acrylic modelling paste:



You can't tell from the photo but the PE screen now sits **just** below the edge of the pylon surface.


----------



## vulcangodoffire

*warpage!!!!!!!!*

so ive been reading a LOT of the forms all over the place and there are a lot of reports of saucer warpage.. and major divots on nacelle halves... i have one divot eac per nacelle and my saucer halves are utterly perfect...
i have a MAJOR issue tho.
all 4 halves of my nacelle pylons are warped. both parts that have the 4 grills are so bowed im afraid ill break them if i try to force them together to glue and clamp. i mean the channel is plenty big enough to put a steel square tubing in but if i force these together well...
anybody have any suggestions?


----------



## Trekkriffic

vulcangodoffire said:


> so ive been reading a LOT of the forms all over the place and there are a lot of reports of saucer warpage.. and major divots on nacelle halves... i have one divot eac per nacelle and my saucer halves are utterly perfect...
> i have a MAJOR issue tho.
> all 4 halves of my nacelle pylons are warped. both parts that have the 4 grills are so bowed im afraid ill break them if i try to force them together to glue and clamp. i mean the channel is plenty big enough to put a steel square tubing in but if i force these together well...
> anybody have any suggestions?


You can try heating them with a hairdryer then placing heavy books on top of them to straighten them. My pylon halves had a very slight warpage which I had planned to fix this way but I found that, after having left them out on my worktable in the sun for a week or so, the warpage disappeared and they were nice and straight.


----------



## vulcangodoffire

*warppage......*

hmm i can try that. im afraid tho if i leave them in the sun they might melt. its easily over 100 here and objects left it the sun get a lot hotter .
does anybody know if round two replaces parts like they did for the refit versions that had issues?


----------



## Nektu

mine were terrible, and I got replacements. I also asked for replacements on the secondary hull.. divots/sink marks were crazy bad. The replacement parts were better, but still need a ton of work. It's the reinforcement braces inside the parts causing the sink marks. Get the spot putty, boys. K


----------



## John P

Okay, so I put the neck together with the strip LEDs inside, plugged them in the circuit board and applied power via the kit AC adapter, and... nothing.

I pried the neck apart and made sure the connections were correct, applied power and NOTHING.

I plugged the hangar deck LEDs into the circuit board and applied power and they light fine!

I cut two new 3-LED strips off the ribbon and replaced the ones in the neck, applied power and NOTHING!!!

Why not?


----------



## John P

All you have to do is read the instructions and put it together correctly, ya dern idjit!
(never mind, I got it  )


----------



## vulcangodoffire

*RC tos 350*

sooooo.. somewhere along the line somebody did the same or similar thing im doing with mine they used a rgb led remote to power everything up for their model.
i thought id share what im doing as i got the electronics up and running and somewhat impressed with myself..lol.
first this is what i got http://www.ebay.com/itm/8-Key-RGB-L...ote-Controller-Dimmer-12-24V-US-/171048360737

the reason for choosing this one, is 2 fold. 8 button control which is 433mhz rf there are TONS of relays that can be programed specific to the included remote. 
second if you notice the rgb controller itself has built in keys( nice if you lose the remote or what have you.)
got it last night and set it all up i tied the positive power connector to the main board to the positive common anode output and the negative to the power input end. this kept the power to the board on ALL the time. i get to my solution for that next .
i did try it connected to the output end of the controller but it ended up dimming when i didn't want it to.
solution to that? why a learning 433.92mhz relay of course http://www.canton-electronics.com/1...f-wireless-receiver-43392mhz-dc12v-p-469.html
this relay will get wired to the controller INPUT end and then programed to the on/off button of the remote. in turn when the rgb controller turns on the relay will turn on the main board for the internal lights and blinkers.
as for the motors and light effect. they will no longer be wired to the board but to the rgb... i chose to connect it to red. (took a bit to go through the programing to find the right setting but once i did) anyway. each output r g b are each 4 amps 12v. obviously you need a good power supply to supply this output the included polarlights psu just doesn't cut it. so you only need one connection to successfully run both nacelles including a 12" single color led strip( i chose uv purple)

as for functionality once i got to the right program setting a diode is NOT necessary across the contacts of the motors. ive tested both the stock motors and my replacement precision mini gearhead motors the simple voltage modulation( pulse width modulation PWM for short) is more than adequate to not only control the speed of the motors but completely stop power to them(you know power is gone when they quit vibrating) also the spinner disks flashers turn off after the first step but then continue to dim along with the 12" strips until they are so dim that inside the model you can not tell they are on. there is a very FAINT glow both form the sides and the end of the nacelles with the lights off but with the lights on in the room you can not tell they are on at the lowest setting. and with all of that still the internal lights are on and blinkies still blinking!!!. 
working on a couple other ideas one for a working blue laser coming out of the turret emitter and again controlled by one of the rf relays.
and IF i can convince kopin i may end up with a working honest to god full motion "with video clips" main viewer screen. kopin makes one that fits 100% exactly to the size of the production version PE view screen etch part. And as small as it is. with only minor removal of material it will fit just fine.
pics coming soon as i have a bit more work done and can figure out how to post here.


----------



## Trekkriffic

I'm getting dizzy. On the one hand you have John P who professes to know nothing about electronics and, on the other hand you have VGOF, who, apparently, knows everything about electronics! Such diversity here at HobbyTalk. It's so great!


----------



## vulcangodoffire

Trekkriffic said:


> I'm getting dizzy. On the one hand you have John P who professes to know nothing about electronics and, on the other hand you have VGOF, who, apparently, knows everything about electronics! Such diversity here at HobbyTalk. It's so great!


giggle...
i most certainly didnt say i knew everything about electronics whatsoever.
simply sharing my personal experience. and far form an expert.... infact i ask lots of questions. the only thing i put forth was the fact that the set im using simply doesnt need a diode at the contacts of the motors to work correctly. 
by the way copying ideas and sharing them is one of the things this is all about ... somebody wants to use an idea i have that works for them wonderful!! im happy for them because you better believe i directly ripped off quite a few myself! have a great night :~D


----------



## John P

IDIC, baby!


----------



## vulcangodoffire

is there a place to say i have extra of a product that others might be interested in? its something im using on both my tos 350 and my refit 350 and ive seen a bunch of people say they look for it. but cant find it reasonable. i don't know where to post it. 
if its cool to post it here ill do it other wise.....


----------



## Paulbo

David, I don't see any reason not to start a new thread offering it, especially if it could be used for the Refit as well as the TOS ship.


----------



## JHauser

vulcangodoffire said:


> sooooo.. somewhere along the line somebody did the same or similar thing im doing with mine they used a rgb led remote to power everything up for their model.
> i thought id share what im doing as i got the electronics up and running and somewhat impressed with myself..lol.
> first this is what i got http://www.ebay.com/itm/8-Key-RGB-L...ote-Controller-Dimmer-12-24V-US-/171048360737
> 
> the reason for choosing this one, is 2 fold. 8 button control which is 433mhz rf there are TONS of relays that can be programed specific to the included remote.
> second if you notice the rgb controller itself has built in keys( nice if you lose the remote or what have you.)
> got it last night and set it all up i tied the positive power connector to the main board to the positive common anode output and the negative to the power input end. this kept the power to the board on ALL the time. i get to my solution for that next .
> i did try it connected to the output end of the controller but it ended up dimming when i didn't want it to.
> solution to that? why a learning 433.92mhz relay of course http://www.canton-electronics.com/1...f-wireless-receiver-43392mhz-dc12v-p-469.html
> this relay will get wired to the controller INPUT end and then programed to the on/off button of the remote. in turn when the rgb controller turns on the relay will turn on the main board for the internal lights and blinkers.
> as for the motors and light effect. they will no longer be wired to the board but to the rgb... i chose to connect it to red. (took a bit to go through the programing to find the right setting but once i did) anyway. each output r g b are each 4 amps 12v. obviously you need a good power supply to supply this output the included polarlights psu just doesn't cut it. so you only need one connection to successfully run both nacelles including a 12" single color led strip( i chose uv purple)
> 
> as for functionality once i got to the right program setting a diode is NOT necessary across the contacts of the motors. ive tested both the stock motors and my replacement precision mini gearhead motors the simple voltage modulation( pulse width modulation PWM for short) is more than adequate to not only control the speed of the motors but completely stop power to them(you know power is gone when they quit vibrating) also the spinner disks flashers turn off after the first step but then continue to dim along with the 12" strips until they are so dim that inside the model you can not tell they are on. there is a very FAINT glow both form the sides and the end of the nacelles with the lights off but with the lights on in the room you can not tell they are on at the lowest setting. and with all of that still the internal lights are on and blinkies still blinking!!!.
> working on a couple other ideas one for a working blue laser coming out of the turret emitter and again controlled by one of the rf relays.
> and IF i can convince kopin i may end up with a working honest to god full motion "with video clips" main viewer screen. kopin makes one that fits 100% exactly to the size of the production version PE view screen etch part. And as small as it is. with only minor removal of material it will fit just fine.
> pics coming soon as i have a bit more work done and can figure out how to post here.


It seems like your adding complexities to a achieve some very basic functions. What are you gaining from what I posted (#1278 ), outside of some direct input selections? 

As far as using a diode or not on the motor, from what I understand, it's necessary to reroute inductive motor spikes (kick-back/fly-back spikes) when using PWM.


----------



## RossW

If you're PWM'ing a motor directly via a micro controller, then a diode is indeed a very good idea. If you're using a motor driver (e.g. TI SN754410), however, then it may not be necessary as it handles the reverse voltage condition internally.


----------



## JHauser

So with the device vulcangodoffire is using, do you suggest that he could benefit by using a diode?


----------



## RossW

I don't know but I doubt that the device was meant to control motors, just LEDs. I would put diodes in, yes.


----------



## vulcangodoffire

point taken. considering the investment spent.... better safe than sorry as the diode is like .50 vs burning out 25.00 worth of motors. thanks for the suggestions on that 
as for the complexity's.. the issue with the set up im using unfourtantly it doesn't work quite like yours. i already tried it direct to the positive output
if i understood your post correctly yours powers up the boards with out the fading effect and only fades your spinners and motors. there appears to be something different with that set up .i have 4 outputs just like yours one + and 3 - r g b . the only way i was able to control the motors and lights from the R and still have the boards not fade was to connect to the input, problem is that's always on, Even when i had it wired to - input + out and vice versa. only way around it and get it to come on with the spinners and nacelle lights with out having to throw a manual switch was to get a programmable remote relay. id be happy to hear any suggestions to make it simpler. one thing i know for sure will need a remote switch will be the laser diode. i don't want manual buttons except for back up and the relays im using can be programed to work as a momentary switch. the kopin lcd and video board can be run from one of the 5v outputs runs off 5v or less, less than 1 watt and i cant remember the milliamps but it was very low un 100 i believe. i could use suggestions of how to make it easy... i don't know enough about electronics to get much better than what ive done. and the diode bit was info from a buddy of mine. all i do is a lot of reading and find stuff that works like i want it to in my head.


----------



## JHauser

While I don't have direct input to any one setting, I can do this in the following sequence:

1) Turn on the all display lights (including bussard lights but not the nacelles lights) by RF remote control.
2) All of the above plus lighting the nacelles (dim).
3) All of the above plus turn on bussard motor (1st speed-14rpm). 
4) All of the above plus turn on bussard motor (2nd speed-39rpm).
5) All of the above plus turn on bussard motor (3rd speed- 54 rpm), plus nacelles lights bright.
6) All of the above plus turn on bussard motor (4th speed-63rpm).

All of that is achieved by a circuit board with remote for less than $9.00 shipped, and small enough (1-3/8"x 1/2"x 3/16") to use two-sided tape to attach it to the existing circuit board that goes in the secondary hull. I only need two wires supplying 12v from existing power supply to the model. Actually I'm going to use a male/female 2.5mm mono jack to make the power connection so I can either use a display stand or wall mounted powered support. 

My idea was that I can cycle through the lights/motor speed sequences and decide on what looks the best and just leave it there. Then just turn it on and off by the remote.


----------



## vulcangodoffire

yours certainty seams to be more simplistic i do like that you can put it all inside...
i suppose its a "tos" up.(unintentional pun but it worked i guess lol) the one main thing i don't want is to have the main lighting dim in any way. just on/ off.
if i read your post right your also lighting the sides of the nacelles?
i am too. uv purple. my entire point behind the remote for me, is to have the nacelles front lighting, motors, and side lighting all on the same circuit to dim and slow the motors to next to nothing and still have the other lighting on full. as if its just sitting in space.
if i could figure out a way to do it the way your doing yours and accomplish my goal id love to. that way i could at least eliminate one relay. however the pic of your rgb controller the electronics are very different.
i cracked mine open yesterday and its quite different. maybe if i post some pics you might be able to help me figure out a way to accomplish it all a little simpler? 
ps.. i like your idea of the audio jack for power. im using a ps2 6 pin connector and chassis mount receptacle to do something similar. 6 pins for 3 sets of +- i may get away with only the 2 but one extra for just incase. the laser module may need it own direct regulated supply who knows. it can run form 3.7-5.6v so we will see.


----------



## Skyking918

JHauser said:


> All of that is achieved by a circuit board with remote for less than $9.00 shipped, and small enough (1-3/8"x 1/2"x 3/16") to use two-sided tape to attach it to the existing circuit board that goes in the secondary hull.


Where does one obtain this circuit board and remote? How does it connect to the Polar Lights circuitry?

Sounds like a cool idea!


----------



## vulcangodoffire

oh there was also one other difference i thought id mention with this controller, the diming cycle there are 256 steps instead of 4 or 6 so this gives the effect of a smooth slowdown or speed up on the motors and lights.
if i hold the button is slows or speeds up over about 15 seconds
if i just press the button and keep clicking it it takes about 20-25 clicks to get it all the way down or back up.
im curious about yours. is it just four settings? or does it smoothly ramp up and back down if you hold the button down? mine was only 13 bux and im really starting to like the idea of all inside... 13 bux isn't much to skip to trade for a 9.00 item


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## vulcangodoffire

Skyking918 said:


> Where does one obtain this circuit board and remote? How does it connect to the Polar Lights circuitry?
> 
> Sounds like a cool idea!




EBAY
search for "RF rgb led" and youll get tons of listings
you don't want IR to many issues and then you have to have an exposed "EYE" and the distance sux. pulse its line of site.
with the rf up to 30 meters form any direction and none of the mess


----------



## JHauser

vulcangodoffire said:


> yours certainty seams to be more simplistic i do like that you can put it all inside...
> i suppose its a "tos" up.(unintentional pun but it worked i guess lol) the one main thing i don't want is to have the main lighting dim in any way. just on/ off.
> if i read your post right your also lighting the sides of the nacelles?
> i am too. uv purple. my entire point behind the remote for me, is to have the nacelles front lighting, motors, and side lighting all on the same circuit to dim and slow the motors to next to nothing and still have the other lighting on full. as if its just sitting in space.
> if i could figure out a way to do it the way your doing yours and accomplish my goal id love to. that way i could at least eliminate one relay. however the pic of your rgb controller the electronics are very different.
> i cracked mine open yesterday and its quite different. maybe if i post some pics you might be able to help me figure out a way to accomplish it all a little simpler?
> ps.. i like your idea of the audio jack for power. im using a ps2 6 pin connector and chassis mount receptacle to do something similar. 6 pins for 3 sets of +- i may get away with only the 2 but one extra for just incase. the laser module may need it own direct regulated supply who knows. it can run form 3.7-5.6v so we will see.


#1 of the sequence, and all the way through, the main lighting is always on, full 12v, bussard and nav. lights blinking.

Yes, I'm lighting up the nacelles with blue LED strips purchased here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B008U1AIOY/ref=pe_175190_21431760_3p_M3T1_ST1_dp_1

I stripped the heavy rubber waterproof outer covering and then slipped it into a large diameter clear drinking straw to make if ridged to mount inside the nacelle.


----------



## JHauser

Skyking918 said:


> Where does one obtain this circuit board and remote? How does it connect to the Polar Lights circuitry?
> 
> Sounds like a cool idea!


This is the one I purchased:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-Wirele...ing_Parts_and_Accessories&hash=item460cd454c1

I re-wire it with the mini connectors so it's just plugs in. See post #1278. The single lead on the right is 12v power in. On the top right, the lead with the silver tag is 12v power out to the main board. The lead with the red shrink tube near the connector is goes directly to the motors and the last lead is for the nacelle lights.


----------



## vulcangodoffire

man that sounds good about being able to get 12v power at all times. i wonder how that works with all the 12v power soldered to one spot its common um.. anode? which is what mine is but there is obviously a drastic difference. every program i tried for mine i could not get the main power to the boards constant.

well anyway im going to decide which way im going but the more i think about it i do think im going to keep the other electronics outside of the model in the base.
that way i can change up what ever needs to be when ever.
i do have a question about the diodes across the poles of the motors. 
first does it matter how its connected? a resistor doesn't mater but an led does .like i said i only know enough to be dangerous.
second my motors are exactly the same as yours so i probably want to use the same diode as you.. is there a part number?


----------



## vulcangodoffire

the leds im using are tape leds just like in the pl light kit except its on copper tape and 120 leds per 3 feet.
i have 4 extra feet im gona post for sale if i can figure out what a fair price is. bought 10 feet used 4 and keeping 2 more .


----------



## RossW

Woo hoo! We reached 100 pages!


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## vulcangodoffire

OH!! do i get a star for creating page 100?? lol


----------



## Trek Ace

I feel cheated. I only show 50 pages.


----------



## Carson Dyle

Although I don’t plan to light my 1/350 E (which will be a mash-up of the Pilot miniatures), I have been experimenting with different types of “window treatments.” Most builders will no doubt be happy with the styrene windows supplied with the kit, but I’ve found an alternative that affords a really clean and seamless look – very much like that found on the Production miniature.

Ding All is generally used to fix dings in surfboards, but it also works pretty well as a cheap, easy, and relatively quick window-making medium.

Just pour a little bit into a discarded water bottle cap, add a single drop of hardener, mix gently but thoroughly (to avoid bubbles) and dab it into the widow apertures from the inside. 8 hours later it’s ready to sand and buff-out (obviously you need to apply tape over the outside surface to prevent the resin from seeping through).

The stuff dries really hard (but not too hard), it can be tinted with food coloring, and, if desired, it can be buffed out to a super clear degree of opacity. I tried a couple different treatments; resin backed by black paint, resin backed by white paint, resin backed by clear amber and green, etc. 

I was working so fast and sloppy I didn't worry about resin bubbles, nor did I pause long enough to clean the bridge part of sanding dust before applying the resin (hence the bits of grit in some of the window corners), but I think you get the idea. 

Final 2 pix show the windows after masking and application of the hull finish (and yes, that’s the same color paint in both photos, a custom mix based on my Master Replicas model).


----------



## SteveR

The last image is the proof of the smoothness: the highlight is continuous across window and part. Great job! :thumbsup:


----------



## TrekFX

Does the label or documentation indicate what type of resin this is, ie polyester, epoxy, polyurethane...? "Specialty" items like this often have generic counterparts available from auto-body shops or home/hardware store.

EDIT:

Never mind! Polyester!

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=12489


----------



## SteveR

I like the mixing ratio for some reason.


----------



## jgoldsack

I really like that. I have never had good luck with clear resins.. the mix ratio always screws me up. This seems pretty simple.


----------



## RossW

The windows look terrific and solve my main (albeit not too important) beef with clear inserts in general - they don't end up looking as seamless as they should. I was hoping to over come this with adding Kristal Klear over top of the inserts to 'fill in the gaps' and then I could still paint the halves the final hull colour before gluing in the inserts and assembling the halves and touching up the seams, mainly to avoid masking the windows. But I don't know if that would work and this looks so good ...


----------



## Trekkriffic

That Ding All looks like great stuff and not too expensive either; certainly cheaper than the clear casting resin sold at _Michaels_. I used the white inserts for my lit windows though so the crystal clarity wouldn't work for me. Besides I've already glued the secondary hull together with the window inserts so it's too late for me even if I wanted to use this. Some of the windows are inset pretty deep into the hull using the insert so if I can find leftover window insert material that fits I may shave off and lay an extra piece on top of the existing insert to make it more level with the hull. In fact, I didn't use any of the clear inserts so it would be possible for me to slice off bits of clear window material and lay them on top of the white and dark windows from the outside using Krystal Klear to glue them in. That might look pretty cool; not as cool as using Ding All but better than having a ridiculously deep window frame. Or not.


----------



## TrekFX

You could probably add a little pigment like titanium dioxide powder to make it milky-translucent.


----------



## Carson Dyle

TrekFX said:


> You could probably add a little pigment like titanium dioxide powder to make it milky-translucent.


Depending on how aggressively you sand and buff the resin, you can achieve a milky look without adding anything to the resin (although I suspect your approach would work).

I want to emphasize that my main purpose with this little experiment was to test "Ding All," a product I'd never used before. Since neatness didn't really count, I made next to no effort to properly prep the part and buff-out the finish. Had I taken a little more care the end results would have looked considerably neater and sharper.

I love it when a really simple, easy, and inexpensive solution also happens to yield superior looking results. It doesn't happen very often, and I just wanted to share this little tip with those of you looking to recreate seamless windows.


----------



## Fozzie

Is this the right stuff? If so, it's pretty cheap.

http://www.amazon.com/Ding-All-pt-S...=UTF8&qid=1373935567&sr=8-3&keywords=ding+all


----------



## Carson Dyle

Yup. If your starship needs windows, look no further.


----------



## John P

Holy.... crap, these electrical connectors are finnicky. The one you attache the LED ribbon with. Wiggle the saucer and lights go out. I'm afraid to glue the saucer together now! Jeez.


----------



## [email protected]

John P said:


> Holy.... crap, these electrical connectors are finnicky. The one you attache the LED ribbon with. Wiggle the saucer and lights go out. I'm afraid to glue the saucer together now! Jeez.


John, I've read that folks are applying hot glue to the connectors once they are happy with how they're working. Maybe you could try that.

Tom


----------



## Trekkriffic

I gave up on those ribbon connectors and just soldered the wires to the contacts. I got pretty good at desoldering the connector strip, placing a drop of solder on the tape contacts, and resoldering the original wires to the tape. Takes less than a minute with practice.


----------



## John P

Doesn't hot glue melt the plastic?


----------



## Trekkriffic

John P said:


> Doesn't hot glue melt the plastic?


\

Naw. I used it on all the wiring harnesses as added strain relief for the solder joints. It cools quick and the plastic is so thick it doesn't harm it.


----------



## vulcangodoffire

super glue works pretty good to get them to stay. BUT you have to be careful if it goes inside the connector it can apparently ad resistance or cause it to lose some contact or SOMETHING... lol i waisted a strip of high-density UV purple because i was only getting half brightness after the superglue. on the bright side(pun intended lol) when i tacked down my second strip above the first. I found that that angle is much better for light distribution than the dead center position in the nacelles original positioning and because of this even though the other nacelle was perfect i went ahead and used a second strip at the same angle as the first.


----------



## Trekkriffic

vulcangodoffire said:


> super glue works pretty good to get them to stay. BUT you have to be careful if it goes inside the connector it can apparently ad resistance or cause it to lose some contact or SOMETHING... lol i waisted a strip of high-density UV purple because i was only getting half brightness after the superglue. on the bright side(pun intended lol) when i tacked down my second strip above the first. I found that that angle is much better for light distribution than the dead center position in the nacelles original positioning and because of this even though the other nacelle was perfect i went ahead and used a second strip at the same angle as the first.


Consternation turns to lucidation. Funny how, so often, a mistake leads to an improvement.


----------



## John P

Yeah, I figured superglue would seep between the contacts, so I didn't even try.


----------



## vulcangodoffire

indeed super glue has its downfalls.. im learning all kinds of new things with this build. and Trekkriffic your right.. i was a bit miffed... dismayed at the loss of some led tape. sometimes an unintended mistake becomes the mother of invention. im at a worse spot with the spinners in the nacelles than i was with the tape and super glue . ive got these things self tightening and then locking up. ive bent plastic and even chipped it here and there due to having to rip them apart several times. eventually it will work and turn out right but to do so im gona end up having to make them permanent fixtures using gorilla snot glue. i even had to resolder one of the always on led's on one of the round boards because of taking things apart and putting them back together. on the bright side of that i have them both perfectly aligned now and drive shafts perfectly centered.


----------



## Trekkriffic

With my rearrangement of the motors to isolate them in foam sleeves connected with tubing to threaded couplers I had the same issue with the spinners tightening or loosening on the threads depending on whether they were spinning clockwise or counter-clockwise. I ended up packing the insides of the clear spinner shafts with Tamiya epoxy putty before threading them onto the couplers. That means, like yours, my spinners are mounted permanently to the motorized coupler shafts. As far as the LEDs, I had to resolder all of mine as I was swapping them out to extend them and add different colored LEDs.


----------



## vulcangodoffire

putty might be better than the gorilla glue i do have some i had to rebuild one of the shafts to the spinners one shattered form working with it to much and it cracked. so silly me put superglue around the shaft to strengthen it up. well. it didn't get sanded enough and got jammed in the socket. so i had to rebuild it.
i rebuilt my drive shafts exactly like yours. same brass fittings same barring's etc. the shafts tho, i built slightly different im finding that i have to much drag still tho or rather friction so gona have to thin things out a touch at the socket to lessen the drag. though i think if i glue or use putty to set the shafts into the spinners that may eliminate most of it.i used fish tank tubing instead of fuel line because its a bit stiffer but even that ends up twisting until they just completely lock up.
one last thing for now. anybody reading this make sure to paint prime or what ever the Christmas tree light disk FIRST before you do anything. even if its really thick blue gray plastic it might as well not even be there with all the light it leaks.


----------



## vulcangodoffire

as for the leds i wanted to do that to mine but i apparently got a newer set of boards the were surface mounted instead of sticking up 1/16 to 1/8 inch. i had plenty of colored led's left after building the Waddell warp boards for my 22" but not gona happen at this point besides as for soldering im not that great at it because my hands shake. so its gona have to be as is.


----------



## Trekkriffic

One caution about using CA (Superglue) on clear parts; don't spray the part with an accelerant like Zip Kicker to speed up curing. It will cause the clear plastic to craze and crack. One of the reasons I went with epoxy putty on my spinner shafts; that, and not wanting to risk the glue migrating down the shaft and getting in places I didn't want it.


----------



## vulcangodoffire

good idea.. i don't use accelerants ive wanted to.. but for this build it drys to fast as it is. gona have to use something else to glue the two halves of the saucer together im thinking a mild pvc glue testers model glue just doesn't cut it.
you've convinced me to use my putty to permanently affix my spinners to the shafts that will happen this weekend along with other things


----------



## Trekkriffic

vulcangodoffire said:


> good idea.. i don't use accelerants ive wanted to.. but for this build it drys to fast as it is. gona have to use something else to glue the two halves of the saucer together im thinking a mild pvc glue testers model glue just doesn't cut it.
> you've convinced me to use my putty to permanently affix my spinners to the shafts that will happen this weekend along with other things


Testors works great for welding the seams together if you can get it on the parts and clamped before it sets up. If not, you can always inject Ambroid with a syringe into any gaps like I did.Any larger gaps like I ran into around the impulse engine deck can be filled with 2-part AVES Apoxy Sculpt or Tamiya Epoxy Putty.


----------



## vulcangodoffire

is that apoxy sculpt 2 part one white one kind of gray ...water soluble and very sand able? if so that's what im using or rather the generic version of it.
that what i used to rebuild one of the spinner shafts with along with a 3/16 pice of plastruct tube its not pretty but its straight and it works. i even got it threaded for the ball link shaft. tho with the locking up issue now that i think about it i should have left it smooth and just glued it one when i was ready.. oh well live and learn.

can you tell me what diode you used for the motors and if it has a specific polarity that it needs to be attached with?


----------



## Trekkriffic

vulcangodoffire said:


> is that apoxy sculpt 2 part one white one kind of gray ...water soluble and very sand able? if so that's what im using or rather the generic version of it.
> that what i used to rebuild one of the spinner shafts with along with a 3/16 pice of plastruct tube its not pretty but its straight and it works. i even got it threaded for the ball link shaft. tho with the locking up issue now that i think about it i should have left it smooth and just glued it one when i was ready.. oh well live and learn.
> 
> can you tell me what diode you used for the motors and if it has a specific polarity that it needs to be attached with?


Yes. It's water soluble and one part is dark gray in a jar with a dark gray cap and one part is sort of sand colored in a jar with a white cap. I didn't use a diode on my motors; just am wiring them up to 12V power direct from the stand. 60 RPM works for me without the desire to vary the speed.


----------



## vulcangodoffire

oh ya that's right ...lol. it gets confuseing who puts what suggestion up. i am doing variable speed and even though the controller seams to do the job just fine not worth the risk so im gona take ross's and um...the other guys suggestion and put a diode in for each. if i can get the right one and find out which polarity is correct if any. i really like the smooth ramp up and down of the motor speed this thing creates. and i just found out last night that with the spinners and dome attached with it at lowest power you can not see any light at all. so its in impulse mode


----------



## Trekkriffic

vulcangodoffire said:


> oh ya that's right ...lol. it gets confuseing who puts what suggestion up. i am doing variable speed and even though the controller seams to do the job just fine not worth the risk so im gona take ross's and um...the other guys suggestion and put a diode in for each. if i can get the right one and find out which polarity is correct if any. i really like the smooth ramp up and down of the motor speed this thing creates. and i just found out last night that with the spinners and dome attached with it at lowest power you can not see any light at all. so its in impulse mode


Yeah. I can do impulse mode too; if I want the warp engines off I flick the rocker switch on the base. They would still be lit up though just no spinning. And I can have the impulse engines dark or lit up with a pushbutton switch built into the impulse engine deck.


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## vulcangodoffire

sweet....
im kind of a freak about this thing. ive got it rf remote control. i have the main boards set on their own relay which works now and waiting on my 450nm blue laser to pipe through the emitter on the lower side of the dome that will be on its own momentary relay. but i haven't got my impulse engines to turn off and on i don't want any rocker switches. i may try to work a 3rd relay in for on off for the impulse. another fader box for those would be insane. don't know if im gona get a working lcd for the main viewer screen but im at least 2weeks out for that anyway. pulse im having issues with my jjenterprise and the coaxial fan blades im working on. on top of that my 22" cutaway is almost done and needs to get detailed before final assembly and paint. LOTS to do and not enough time to do it all. lol


----------



## Trekkriffic

vulcangodoffire said:


> sweet....
> im kind of a freak about this thing. ive got it rf remote control. i have the main boards set on their own relay which works now and waiting on my 450nm blue laser to pipe through the emitter on the lower side of the dome that will be on its own momentary relay. but i haven't got my impulse engines to turn off and on i don't want any rocker switches. i may try to work a 3rd relay in for on off for the impulse. another fader box for those would be insane. don't know if im gona get a working lcd for the main viewer screen but im at least 2weeks out for that anyway. pulse im having issues with my jjenterprise and the coaxial fan blades im working on. on top of that my 22" cutaway is almost done and needs to get detailed before final assembly and paint. LOTS to do and not enough time to do it all. lol


Yeah. You are a model freak... but in a good way! Seriously the things you have planned for this build are freaking... freaking awesome! I especially like the idea for the working viewscreen.


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## vulcangodoffire

yep..lol i admit im a freak about it. its convenient that paul created the tos view screen pe part to match the exact size of the kopin lcd , tho im sure that was just coincidence. im trying to get allen at kopin to sell it to me for a reasonable price. however even if i do get one the concern is first, will it even be visible? im betting if i can replace the top dome insert with a magnifying glass, or incorporate it somehow it would work. but i don't want to alter the exterior looks if at all possible. ive seen some pics of peoples builds and you can just barley see the decal soo the question i ask myself is is it wasted money ?
the laser is easy in comparison even a high powered one that can light a match. i certainty wont be lighting any matches with it tho. cant take the risk of melting the plastic or ruining the paint job. i just wish there was a reasonably prices 473 or 480nm blue laser which would more closely match the baby blue of the phasers in the show, however to get it to be even simi visible it would have to be over 200mw and laser heads in that range are way out of my price/budget range.
on top of that im not aware of a simple diode version like 405 and 445/450 diodes the 473 and 480's the smallest ive seen would be to big to fit inside the 350 scale. i suppose if i could find one for a reasonable price i could put the head in the base and then project it with a high-end test fiber it would fit that way but its a moot point at this point..lol


----------



## Trekkriffic

Lasers sound neat. I'd just be too worried about someone not being careful and getting blinded by it.


----------



## JHauser

vulcangodoffire said:


> can you tell me what diode you used for the motors and if it has a specific polarity that it needs to be attached with?


I used a N4004 only because I had it laying around. if you're buying new you should look for a N4001.

As far as "specific polarity" and seeing that you're using the same motor as I am, a picture is better that an explanation. Look close because one is set to run clockwise and the other CCW.

Here's a link describing markings and flow. http://www.wikihow.com/Tell-Which-Way-Round-a-Diode-Should-Be

When in doubt, Google is your best friend.


----------



## Trekkriffic

JHauser said:


> I used a N4004 only because I had it laying around. if you're buying new you should look for a N4001.
> 
> As far as "specific polarity" and seeing that you're using the same motor as I am, a picture is better that an explanation. Look close because one is set to run clockwise and the other CCW.
> 
> Here's a link describing markings and flow. http://www.wikihow.com/Tell-Which-Way-Round-a-Diode-Should-Be
> 
> When in doubt, Google is your best friend.


Lemme guess... the one on the right is counter-clockwise?


----------



## JHauser

I've read some concerns about serviceability of the motors, loose fan domes and/or bussard circuit boards, here's what I did. Using small torx screws to attach the bussard collectors to the nacelles and for mounting the fan domes to the motor shafts. Adding micro connectors to the boards and motors separately for easy disconnects.

If I have any problems, I can pop of the frosted dome, remove the torx screw from the fan dome, lift the circuit board out enough to have access to the two torx screws holding the bussard assembly in place, then just pull apart the micro connectors.


----------



## vulcangodoffire

Trekkriffic said:


> Lasers sound neat. I'd just be too worried about someone not being careful and getting blinded by it.




meh.. there is that but it will be in an adult home and if somebody is silly enough to look directly into the beam, well that's their issue.
im quite familiar with lasers i just finished building a 2.5watt "wicked" replica
i wouldn't be crazy enough to put something that powerful in..lol tho.. you are right even the 50mw pointer diode im putting in could instantly blind somebody. being that im the only person who knows what button it will be attached to its a non issue.:tongue:


----------



## JHauser

Trekkriffic said:


> Lemme guess... the one on the right is counter-clockwise?


Yes, the one that as CCW written on it with a Sharpie. And no, I'm not trying to be smart. I'm sure you didn't see it


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## vulcangodoffire

thank you very much JHauser. the info and the pics are EXTREMELY helpful.
i totally forgot i bought connectors that match the board connectors both male and females. ill make a stop to my local electronics store im sure they will have the part you listed or something suitable to replace it with.


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## vulcangodoffire

by the way a friend of mine was looking at my posts... hes known me for 22 years but he suggested that some of my posts sound arrogant. i assure you it is not my intent to offend anybody or to come off that way its just how i talk i guess. but i figured id post because if he noticed it im sure somebody else did to. my apologies if anything i say my come off offencive.


----------



## Paulbo

For parts that go together _quickly_ I like Ambroid. For pieces that take a while to apply glue and assemble I go to Testors - it doesn't evaporate nearly as quickly as Ambroid (or Tenax or the other, similar welding solvents) so it's got a longer working time.


----------



## vulcangodoffire

JHauser said:


> I've read some concerns about serviceability of the motors, loose fan domes and/or bussard circuit boards, here's what I did. Using small torx screws to attach the bussard collectors to the nacelles and for mounting the fan domes to the motor shafts. Adding micro connectors to the boards and motors separately for easy disconnects.
> 
> If I have any problems, I can pop of the frosted dome, remove the torx screw from the fan dome, lift the circuit board out enough to have access to the two torx screws holding the bussard assembly in place, then just pull apart the micro connectors.


i did see this post a while back... however.. as convenient as that would be i used the pe parts for rotor blades and spent a few days with my fav medium superglue sealing them in and smoothing and polishing and then dulling for a lack of a better word they came out perfect but once they are on ya.. its permanent.


----------



## vulcangodoffire

hey Paul i have a PE question. 2 of my pylon grid screens(or what ever they are called lol) are a little messy and got some glue in the mesh. any recommendation to clean it out? would a brass rotary brush on super slow speed clean it up or would that just rip it apart?


----------



## Carson Dyle

I find I use good, old-fashioned 5-minute epoxy more than just about any other glue these days. It creates a strong bond, it's easy to clean up, it's great with electronics, it allows a little (but not too much) working time, and it's both cheap and readily available.

Obviously all the bonding agents mentioned here have their uses, but never underestimate the strength and versatility of 5-min epoxy.


----------



## Carson Dyle

vulcangodoffire said:


> hey Paul i have a PE question. 2 of my pylon grid screens(or what ever they are called lol) are a little messy and got some glue in the mesh. any recommendation to clean it out?


Got any fine-grade steel wool?


----------



## vulcangodoffire

i do, already tried that. it polishes it up real nice but it wont get into the mesh. ive used a lot of pe parts before but this is the first time ive had mesh pieces to work with and i goofed...to be honest if i cant clean it up ill be removing them and do something else. i love how the clean ones look wonderful detail but i got carried away with the ca i guess on a couple of them. i suppose i could take the paint off them and just leave them polished brass then you couldn't tell but that certainly wont look like its supposed to then
i suppose i could try to see if a super quick flame flash will clean it out. dried ca has a flash point that's very fast like hair. however.....when i did that to a part that wasn't attached it burned all the glue away instantly. i don't want to to burn all the glue away then id just have to reattach them. the flame and flash should be fast enough not to melt the plastic. but that's a last resort only. not worth the risk.


----------



## Trekkriffic

vulcangodoffire said:


> i suppose i could try to see if a super quick flame flash will clean it out. dried ca has a flash point that's very fast like hair. however.....when i did that to a part that wasn't attached it burned all the glue away instantly. i don't want to to burn all the glue away then id just have to reattach them. the flame and flash should be fast enough not to melt the plastic. but that's a last resort only. not worth the risk.


I'd say play it safe and pop the etch off the plastic before doing anything with flame.


----------



## vulcangodoffire

lol. much easier said than done.. which is why im trying to come up with ideas. its pretty well attached to the pylon the edges are well glued and sealed. i can try to remove them and start over... that's for sure another good idea. even the microscopic pieces for the hanger bay are perfect... just this mesh behaves different is all. its a learning experience


----------



## mbss1979

*Window Treatment*

Due to my full time job, I'm not lighting the 350 E either. But painting it to give the illusion of light. 

For the windows, just using Kystal Klear placed on a paint pallet with a drop or two of gloss white acryl paint. See photo. Gives a very nice effect and windows can be done this way after the model is painted, decaled, weathered, flat coated. No need in masking windows. I've always had good luck with Kystal Klear. And when completed, just drop some gloss clear over them to seal them. 

The engine domes are painted per kit instructions, all the Xmas lights, etc. I Then coated the inner domes with clear orange. Not a bad effect.


----------



## vulcangodoffire

incase anybody needs the info, because some pe parts are a little harder to work with than others. mesh pe parts can indeed be rotary brushed. .
my pylon vent mesh covers are MUCH cleaner now. 
my recommendation for cleaning them if necessary. lowest speed on yr dremel 
stainless steel 01 polishing brush, not the brass, brass just falls apart. and the stroke should be away from yourself as you hold the dremel head in your left hand and its rotation is counter clockwise .slow, extremely light strokes move from one side to the other and back. 
somebody else figure out the stroke right handed.lol. but it does indeed work and makes them beautiful. in fact it actually pops the detail up ever so slightly. and makes it look that much better.
just for us noobs with these kinds of pe parts.


----------



## John P

Okay, so I got my first-ever hot glue gun to glue the wiring in.

one question:

Isn't the glue supposed to STOP coming out when you release the trigger?!!? Holy crap, it just keeps oozing and oozing and...


----------



## Trekkriffic

John P said:


> Okay, so I got my first-ever hot glue gun to glue the wiring in.
> 
> one question:
> 
> Isn't the glue supposed to STOP coming out when you release the trigger?!!? Holy crap, it just keeps oozing and oozing and...


It will ooze for a little while unless you pull back on the glue stick that you insert into the chuck in the backside of the head. It will pull back out.


----------



## vulcangodoffire

major issue im hoping somebody can assist with.
does anybody know the exact replacement part for the always on led's for the blinkie boards? i just found that outside the housing it works fine but pressure fit inside it no longer works so i took it apart again. and it worked so i checked it over and it appears that there are a few contacts not fully soldered. so of course i tried to fix the issue my self not only did i kill the led but the little c1 surface mount next to it came off. strange thing is other than that led it still works . second question. does anybody know the exact part for C1 or its equivalent? even if i replace the led and it works they wouldn't have put it there if it wasn't needed.
ive already sent an email to round2 to see if they will sell me just that part. but in the mean time i need to try to fix this just incase. 
im gona probably have to pay 20 bux to have somebody do it for me. my hands shake enough that there is no way on earth im gona get that c1 back on. 
also i have a request if anybody on the boards here has extra because they used different colors i qam gona need 5 amber large christmase tree bulbs for the houseing part.im happy to pay a reasonable price for them if anybody on a loing shot has 5 extra.


----------



## John P

So I get all the saucer lights working, and I hot glue over the connections and I unplug everything. Then (after that dries), I glue the saucer halves together and clamp them real good. Let it dry, take the clamps off, plug it in, and the last light in the windows light chain is NOT on. :freak:

So I rip the saucer apart, and that light come on! :drunk:

So I tear that light out and replace it, and it doesn't come on!  

So I figger it's the connection at the previous light, tear the wire out, replace it, and it all lights up!! :hat:

Then I put the saucer halves together again. And it goes out.

Then I find that as long as I don't put pressure on the connector from above (like when you put the saucer top on and squeeze), it stays on.

But I'm not going to glue the saucer back together tonight. No. Uh-uh. You can't make me.

:tongue:


----------



## tony1tech

*Finished Polar Lights 1/350 tos build finished*

Finally got err done!!!


----------



## tony1tech

Sorry, maybe I should have started a new thread, anyone knowif it can be moved?


----------



## Nova Mike

OMG! That's one fantastic build:thumbsup:well done and thanks for sharing the video


----------



## Prowler901

Holy Moly!!! Tony, that is incredible! I love what you've done. :thumbsup: Thanks so much for sharing that.


----------



## Trekkriffic

Holy Smokes! That's one of the best builds I've seen to date Tony! Love all the added effects with the nacelle trench lights, bussard speed control, and the faders on the impulse engines. Although I think you really should post this in your own build thread to do it justice I think.


----------



## vulcangodoffire

John P said:


> So I get all the saucer lights working, and I hot glue over the connections and I unplug everything. Then (after that dries), I glue the saucer halves together and clamp them real good. Let it dry, take the clamps off, plug it in, and the last light in the windows light chain is NOT on. :freak:
> 
> So I rip the saucer apart, and that light come on! :drunk:
> 
> So I tear that light out and replace it, and it doesn't come on!
> 
> So I figger it's the connection at the previous light, tear the wire out, replace it, and it all lights up!! :hat:
> 
> Then I put the saucer halves together again. And it goes out.
> 
> Then I find that as long as I don't put pressure on the connector from above (like when you put the saucer top on and squeeze), it stays on.
> 
> But I'm not going to glue the saucer back together tonight. No. Uh-uh. You can't make me.
> 
> :tongue:


i ran into a couple things like that too but with the main saucer board and the right spinner/blinki board. worked just fine outside the model but put any pressure on them and parts go out. ive since looked over all the connections and about 1/4 of the led and connector connections are not fully soldered on . me being who i am even when i don't know a whole lot about electronics, tried to fix it all myself. i completely killed one always on led and c1 on the spinner/blinkie board and hoping they will SELL me a replacement. i feel ya


----------



## Trekkriffic

That's why I soldered all my light strips.


----------



## Wattanasiri

Very innovative model tony1tech.


----------



## Proper2

tony1tech said:


> Finally got err done!!!Polar Lights 1/350 tos USS Enterprise build - YouTube


Very impressive work, Tony! The electronics are amazing! I'm jealous!


----------



## Arkons

*Amazing!!*

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!! Tony that is an incredible job you did on your Enterprise!! That's the best one I've seen and I've looked a ton of different builds. Really love the extra effects you put in and the weathering looked really good. Especially how you did the "rust ring". Absolutely love the fade out effect of the impulse engines. I made my shuttle doors removable too so I could display it closed and open. Great job on this!! You really went above and beyond!!!


----------



## tony1tech

Thanks to everyone for the kind words and encouragement I actually posted this video to encourage others in their own builds & to think outside the box. this is an excellent model kit, Iv'e been waiting for a kit like this for about 40 years and with all the new technologies available to us modelers I can't see limiting myself to only technologies that existed in the 1960's I really dont mind the aesthetics (my base looks like it's from the 60's or 70's) but as far as functionality the sky's the limit ,also with the bussard effects we are all using leds which are directional and incandescent bulbs are omnidirectional, Ive tried mirrors, I'm using one way mirror tints on rotor caps, & small diamond like stones on multicolor leds, I also apologize for not posting video in a new thread I may do that in the near future as I also have many photos to post if anyone has any question feel free to ask. good evening my fellow modelers peace out!!Tony


----------



## John P

I just had to crack the neck open a SECOND time to fix the lights. I'll never get this thing together!


----------



## SteveR

Thanks for keeping us up-to-date with your trials, John. So ... even though we might know how to attach the connectors properly, there are still issues. To _ensure_ connectivity, are there any options other than soldering? If we get a connector working, then seal it in epoxy, would that ensure connection?

(I for one, don't want to crack open the darn thing because of an intermittent connection!)


----------



## Paulbo

Soldering is really the best option. I find that tinning the wires and strips works best - get them tinned, then place the wire on the strip and heat 'til the solder melts and remove their iron.

There are different style strip connectors that pierce the metal tape, but they're too big to fit with the HD strips included in the lighting kit.


----------



## Trekkriffic

SteveR said:


> Thanks for keeping us up-to-date with your trials, John. So ... even though we might know how to attach the connectors properly, there are still issues. To _ensure_ connectivity, are there any options other than soldering? If we get a connector working, then seal it in epoxy, would that ensure connection?
> 
> (I for one, don't want to crack open the darn thing because of an intermittent connection!)


You can lead a horse to water...


----------



## JeffG

tony1tech said:


> Finally got err done!!!Polar Lights 1/350 tos USS Enterprise build - YouTube


Oh, man...you gotta stop! Awesome and inspiring work!:thumbsup:


----------



## swhite228

For those interested in paint Saturday Aug 3rd is free paint day at ACE Hardware.
Coupons for a quart can be found on Ace's Facebook page, their website or in the store.

Shady Cove is the color that is suggested for the enterprise body.
Sparkling Apple for those looking to build a green screen setup.

I've painted a couple of models with the paint and have had no problems...I did use a primer before painting as with anything your mileage may vary.


----------



## kdaracal

OK. Here is an important question that has me stumped:

I will be lighting my Enterprise with the Round 2 kit. But I wish to display my hanger bay closed, and still light the rear landing lights using clear part # 28, painted appropriately.


I figured I could just install part # 26A (closed hanger doors) and paint/install clear part # 28. This will bypass having to mess with the rest of the hanger walls/assembly. And I can build the shuttle hanger for a fun side display outside of the hull as a separate model.

Here's my question:
Can this be done? I tried to test-fit the two parts and it appears that the clam shell door part # 26A NEEDS the other interior hanger parts to have something to glue to! I know folks have done this similarly (closed doors-landing lights lit) but the instructions are no help! Any ideas?

Thanks!:wave:


----------



## kdaracal

Here are a couple pics for reference:





After many dry fits, I really can't think of how to spare the hanger walls/floor?


----------



## tony1tech

Tape the whole shuttle assembly together,on the shuttlebay parts 21,22,23,24 &25 the rear section where clamshell is connected to shuttlebay walls trace that pattern onto some styreen sheet from top to the floor of shuttlebay. then also do the same for part 22 the shuttlebay floor this will give you something to attach the clamshell together should also be very easy to light all windows near shuttlebay.


----------



## kdaracal

tony1tech said:


> Tape the whole shuttle assembly together,on the shuttlebay parts 21,22,23,24 &25 the rear section where clamshell is connected to shuttlebay walls trace that pattern onto some styreen sheet from top to the floor of shuttlebay. then also do the same for part 22 the shuttlebay floor this will give you something to attach the clamshell together should also be very easy to light all windows near shuttlebay.


Thanks! I worked on this very thing all day!:wave:

I actually taped the bay together and put it face down on my scanner to get a perfect shape, printed it on cardstock, then cut it out to use as a template to draw around on thick sheet styrene.


----------



## tony1tech

That looks really great,:thumbsup:I hope everything work out as planned,good luck on your project. Tony


----------



## vulcangodoffire

SteveR said:


> Thanks for keeping us up-to-date with your trials, John. So ... even though we might know how to attach the connectors properly, there are still issues. To _ensure_ connectivity, are there any options other than soldering? If we get a connector working, then seal it in epoxy, would that ensure connection?
> 
> (I for one, don't want to crack open the darn thing because of an intermittent connection!)




id have to agree with paul, solder. however....
i did mine without solder and it works and so far, even with all the rough handling not an issue one. ive even submerged parts with light strip and connectors permanently connected. obviously they were 100% dry before i even tested again.

the process i used i only lost 2 maybe 3 of the C connectors. the way i set mine up i ended up getting 3100k light strip and completely skipped the 3 leds at a time thing that came with the light kit. i ended up not only being able to do the 350 tos but my 22" cutaway with the extra connectors and still killed 3 connectors. the way i did mine was cut all my light strip(i had 16 feet to work with) to size i wanted i oriented all the light strip so that i could connect form one to another. in a chain. and in long strips . i did follow most of the wiring diagram so port and starboard secondary, each have one long strip and each plug to their own socket. one strip for the neck 5 for the bottom of the saucer and 3 for the top all connected as instructed, minus C connectors that were unnecessary due to lengths of light strip i used. each nacelle have one long strip of uv purple. .
once each strip was laid and measured out so that the connectors would work correctly i connected each one testing one at a time to make sure they worked. one small dot of super glue on the sides of the connectors to hold snug in place. once dry(do NOT use accelerant) i retested then carefully glued the connector to whatever part it was laying agenst, testing once again and then gluing the wire down as well.
i killed the 2 or 3 connectors by getting to carried away with the glue. a little goes a long way. the glue seeped inside the connector and killed the contact, even soaking in acetone did not correct the situation, no worries they were extras. if you use epoxy don't get it close to the tape/connector rather just under the connector and sides. or it will seep in and kill the connection. i noticed that the way they are constructed they have a natural...um suction effect i forget what that word is. but it sucks up the glue if it gets to close then your screwed. it even sucks up THICK glue.. ie epoxy


----------



## jgoldsack

I like to put a dab of hot glue on my connections.


----------



## Trekkriffic

OMG... why not just solder the connections and dab on some liquid electrical tape? Like this:


IMG_4410 by trekriffic, on Flickr

Good connections every time and no mucking about with glues on connectors. 
Hot molten metal and the stench of rosin vapors burning your eyes... smells like... VICTORY!


----------



## vulcangodoffire

much better solution for sure...
unfourtantly i went about it the hard way. Sigh.. next one will be done differently


----------



## RossW

Trekkriffic said:


> OMG... why not just solder the connections and dab on some liquid electrical tape? Like this:
> 
> 
> IMG_4410 by trekriffic, on Flickr
> 
> Good connections every time and no mucking about with glues on connectors.
> Hot molten metal and the stench of rosin vapors burning your eyes... smells like... VICTORY!


I found some white liquid electrical tape on Amazon. Helps to bounce the light around in tight areas like the saucer pylon (well, maybe only a little. But aesthetically it looks good.

Thanks to Trekmodeler, I'm using magnetic wire from Radio Shack for the LED tape. The wire is insulated but burns off with a solder iron - works great.


----------



## Trekkriffic

RossW said:


> Thanks to Trekmodeler, I'm using magnetic wire from Radio Shack for the LED tape. The wire is insulated but burns off with a solder iron - works great.


I've seen magnet wire at Radio Shack. The only issue I have whit it is that it's not insulated in colors so you have to remember which wire is positive and negative each time you solder it. I guess you could always dab a little black or white paint on the wires as you move along.


----------



## RossW

Trekkriffic said:


> I've seen magnet wire at Radio Shack. The only issue I have whit it is that it's not insulated in colors so you have to remember which wire is positive and negative each time you solder it. I guess you could always dab a little black or white paint on the wires as you move along.


The one I bought is a 3 pack. They're different gauges, but I use red for +ve and green for -ve. Keeps it simple.


----------



## wjplenge

I got the 3 pack from RS too, but prefer working with a larger spool of 38AWG I got off amazon. Once I solder it I mark the ground with a black sharpie or permanent marker. The mark may not last forever, but it stays until I'm ready to solder the lead to what I'm connecting to.


----------



## ironman150

Quick question. Are the boards for the PL light kit different for the saucer and the secondary hull? I have two that have identical markings.


----------



## Trekkriffic

ironman150 said:


> Quick question. Are the boards for the PL light kit different for the saucer and the secondary hull? I have two that have identical markings.


They look identical but the board for the saucer has a small hole in one corner for screwing it into the lower half of the saucer. The screw for that is in the plastic package containing the motors.


----------



## jgoldsack

Trekkriffic said:


> They look identical but the board for the saucer has a small hole in one corner for screwing it into the lower half of the saucer. The screw for that is in the plastic package containing the motors.


interesting. My sealed motor package has no screw in it. I can see the little "box" where the screw should be, but no screw...lol

I BEEN SCREWED!


----------



## Trekkriffic

jgoldsack said:


> interesting. My sealed motor package has no screw in it. I can see the little "box" where the screw should be, but no screw...lol
> 
> I BEEN SCREWED!


Or NOT!


----------



## vulcangodoffire

mine are diff besides the aforementioned hole.. the saucer one has two real resistors. the other has one resistor and one piece of wire soldered in.
that one is for the secondary hull. i assume the difference is because it has to carry more current the the secondary hull. i could be wrong ..


----------



## ironman150

Checked mine I have both the screw and the hole in the board to go with it.


----------



## Trekkriffic

vulcangodoffire said:


> mine are diff besides the aforementioned hole.. the saucer one has two real resistors. the other has one resistor and one piece of wire soldered in.
> that one is for the secondary hull. i assume the difference is because it has to carry more current the the secondary hull. i could be wrong ..


I didn't mean to suggest the boards were identical. They just may appear so at first glance is all I was saying.


----------



## kdaracal

Anyone know the various colors on the lower edge of the fantail landing lights? (Just below the hangar bay)


----------



## Trekkriffic

kdaracal said:


> Anyone know the various colors on the lower edge of the fantail landing lights? (Just below the hangar bay)


The long horizontal slot in the center is green. The horizontal slots flanking it are red. The two vertical slots are amber yellow.


----------



## kdaracal

Trekkriffic said:


> The long horizontal slot in the center is green. The horizontal slots flanking it are red. The two vertical slots are amber yellow.


Thanks!!


----------



## John P

They're landing signals, like traffic lights: If you're down the center you're in the green. If you're off a little to either side, you get yellow warning lights, if you're too far to either side, you get red lights.


----------



## Trekkriffic

John P said:


> They're landing signals, like traffic lights: If you're down the center you're in the green. If you're off a little to either side, you get yellow warning lights, if you're too far to either side, you get red lights.


If this is the case would it make sense that the lights would be off until a shuttle approached and then only the red, yellow, or green lights would activate as the craft adjusted it's flight path? Having all the lights on would just confuse the pilot-am I too far left or right? Who knows-all the lights are on!


----------



## Proper2

Trekkriffic said:


> If this is the case would it make sense that the lights would be off until a shuttle approached and then only the red, yellow, or green lights would activate as the craft adjusted it's flight path? Having all the lights on would just confuse the pilot-am I too far left or right? Who knows-all the lights are on!


I wouldn't doubt it that that's what Jefferies had intended... but... you know how that goes.


----------



## Paulbo

John P said:


> They're landing signals, like traffic lights: If you're down the center you're in the green. If you're off a little to either side, you get yellow warning lights, if you're too far to either side, you get red lights.


Just like standard descent path lights at the airport: red over white, fly all night (approaching too high); white over red, you're dead (approaching too low).

As to them being off most of the time, at an airport they leave them on all night (while the airport is open) rather than turn them on for each, individual plane.


----------



## TrekFX

Trekkriffic said:


> If this is the case would it make sense that the lights would be off until a shuttle approached and then only the red, yellow, or green lights would activate as the craft adjusted it's flight path? Having all the lights on would just confuse the pilot-am I too far left or right? Who knows-all the lights are on!


Well there you go! You have a way to make your model unique and more true-to-life if you set up those landing lights to be visible-as-intended for approach purposes.


----------



## SteveR

The coolest thing would be to have a proximity switch that changes the light pattern as you hold the little shuttlecraft and move it closer to the shuttle bay.


----------



## Proper2

SteveR said:


> The coolest thing would be to have a proximity switch that changes the light pattern as you hold the little shuttlecraft and move it closer to the shuttle bay.


It might be cool to have the Galileo mounted on a clear acryic rod with its own little base and positioned so that it appears to be preparing to enter the open bay. I think I saw a pic once of someone who had done that. Can't remember who or where.


----------



## John P

Maybe they're on all the time, but the shuttlecraft has a signal on the dashboard that cues the pilot off the light it's aligned with.


----------



## Trekkriffic

John P said:


> Maybe they're on all the time, but the shuttlecraft has a signal on the dashboard that cues the pilot off the light it's aligned with.


The lights are probably only meant to be used as an alignment guide at the early stages of a shuttle's approach. At some point the tractor beam in the bay would activate and pull the shuttle in automatically; the only thing left for the pilot to do would be to power down after landing.


----------



## John P

... with his feet up, having a smoke and a cuppa joe.


----------



## John P

On another note, I assembled the nacelles and neck to the secondary hull last night, and somehow, remarkably, all the lights and motors work!!

On to the saucer!


----------



## Trekkriffic

John P said:


> On another note, I assembled the nacelles and neck to the secondary hull last night, and somehow, remarkably, all the lights and motors work!!
> 
> On to the saucer!


WOOHOOQ Thank the Great Bird of the Galaxy! :thumbsup:


----------



## Trekkriffic

John P said:


> ... with his feet up, having a smoke and a cuppa joe.


LOL... very 60's!


----------



## vulcangodoffire

by the way Trekkriffic... i ran across your full set of pics on um.. flicker??? 
wow i commend you sir, fantastic build.

which ever one of you guys just handed out the idea for reed switches for controlling the rear landing lights. thanks im gona do that, or try.
i already have a rare earth magnet inside my shuttle for making it removable form the deck. but i think that would be absolutely cool to have a left right and center switch . obviously that would require 3 circuits but simple enough 3 led's controlled by the reed switches.
i just ordered 3 sizes 3 of each
7 mm tube switch's. 4mm sm switches and super micro ones about 1.5x.5mm. we will find out which works best with the 3 smd leds ill wire in back there not a lot of room so even though i ordered the 7mm i think they are out before they even leave the warehouse. lol. 

i have my laser/phasor cannons built but waiting to pick up some 450nm lasers. my 22" cut away got a red laser instead of blue because there isn't enough space to put a blue in. in order to focus and channel them through the pipe they have to be at least 50mw and there isn't enough space for a decent heat sink other wise they would either burn out or melt plastic. red on the other hand is much brighter at a far lower power and 10mw creates no heat. its not a visible line even in the dark with out smoke, but this particular model is going to a smokers home, so that parts automatically taken care of. im not willing to wait for 473nm lasers to come down in price like green lasers did. so rather than screen accurate 473 blue my 350 is getting double 450nm. i realize that there is only one emitter on the lower dome but i can only make the cannon tubes so small before i lose focus so it will have two very close together cannons/tubes in the place of the kit emitter part. the tubes are made form a combination of aluminum tube and brass tube and each have a color specific micro lenses at the tip to help with projection. id be happy to post a pic of that working if anybody wants to see it. i know the 22" isn't 350 specific but most of what im doing to my 350 is going into the 22" except for the rf remote system(he wants switches and dials...). let me know if its ok to post the pics of the emitter set up and ill post them here. if anybody's interested. if somebody wants to do the same thing ill be happy to describe it in more detail it sounds complicated but to be honest. its one of the more easy modifications ive done. im not ready to post pics of the 350 build yet. simply because at the stage im at its all been done before and nothing special until the final assembly which wont be for a few more weeks at least.


----------



## kdaracal

Anyone have an opinion on the color of this part # 19-fins near the front of the secondary hull? The instruction sheet seems to suggest just the same main body color....


----------



## vulcangodoffire

its is indeed the same color. in the show(unremastered) the shadowing of the raised detail makes it appear slightly darker. however stills both black and white and color for 66-69 show it to be the same and the restoration at the smith is the same color. if i can find my pics ill post one i know i took a pic of that detail.


----------



## Proper2

kdaracal said:


> Anyone have an opinion on the color of this part # 19-fins near the front of the secondary hull? The instruction sheet seems to suggest just the same main body color....


Looks darker than the hull color to me:


----------



## vulcangodoffire

repost...??? that pic didn't work...


----------



## Proper2

vulcangodoffire said:


> repost...??? that pic didn't work...


Looks the same color as the nacelle end caps... but impossible to know if it's due to the lighting.


----------



## vulcangodoffire

like i said that's the ribbing detail casting shadow. which was done on purpose hers a pic of before it was in the studio as pilot version.
the ribbing was added after this it was just placed on top but not painted a different color.


----------



## vulcangodoffire

here is a direct photo of the part removed for restoration i suppose its possible there may be a SLIGHT dry brush of a darker gray however the shape of it and the raised rib and their spacing make for some pretty extreme






shadowing. and if you stand next to it at the smith its the same color


----------



## Proper2

vulcangodoffire said:


> like i said that's the ribbing detail casting shadow. which was done on purpose hers a pic of before it was in the studio as pilot version.
> the ribbing was added after this it was just placed on top but not painted a different color.
> View attachment 178011


Well, you may be right, but just because the ribbing casts shadowing does not preclude that it was also painted a darker color. My understanding of studio lights is that they tend to wash out not darken, even grooves. Light source is multi-directional and there don't appear to be heavy shadows anywhere on the model. 

But I'm only speculating. I do not know for sure.

And the pre-production pic is not relevant, of course.


----------



## Trekkriffic

vulcangodoffire said:


> by the way Trekkriffic... i ran across your full set of pics on um.. flicker???
> wow i commend you sir, fantastic build..


Thank you sir.




vulcangodoffire said:


> its not a visible line even in the dark with out smoke, but this particular model is going to a smokers home, so that parts automatically taken care of.


:jest: For some reason I just find that statement very funny!


----------



## Proper2

vulcangodoffire said:


> here is a direct photo of the part removed for restoration i suppose its possible there may be a SLIGHT dry brush of a darker gray however the shape of it and the raised rib and their spacing make for some pretty extreme
> View attachment 178012
> shadowing. and if you stand next to it at the smith its the same color


The current color of her at the Smithsonian is not too relevant, I think. We are concerned with the original production model.


----------



## vulcangodoffire

one last pic high quality close up of the part. again its possible that's dry brushing but to be honest it looks just dirty.


----------



## vulcangodoffire

lol i am highly aware that what currently exists there is not correct. I think we all are. i should have been specific, my apology's for that confusion. the base coat is pretty much the only thing he did original.
he did get an exact match for the original color. however. the last pic i just posted is its original condition before he reassembled it and repainted it.


----------



## jgoldsack

Paint it how you think it looks. Light or dark... if it is how you interpret it to be "correct", that's all that matter.


----------



## vulcangodoffire

lol point taken! you are correct sir. what looks right to you is all that matters.
heck ive done things that most certainty are NOT correct or original. 
i was working off the basis of a specific question does anybody know? (rather i think the word opinion was used) i provided a fact nothing more. but ya i agree ... do what looks good


----------



## Proper2

The Master Replicas model, which I really like a lot and seems to be pretty accurate in terms of matching the color to the production model, shows this part pretty much the color of the hull. So, maybe that's how it was originally, after all. Personally I like to see a little darker color on it just to bring out more of the detail. But like jgoldsack suggests, paint it how you interpret it.


----------



## vulcangodoffire

hey Trekkriffic... i REALLY dig what you did with the power shaft on your build and the mini spots. i think that looks really amazing.
would you mind if i blatantly used some of your design?

i already am using a 9 pin chassis mount plug and power plug to match. but wow that looks amazing. and those little spots SWEET! theyed look awesome with my background on my base that is being built


----------



## kdaracal

Proper2 said:


> Looks darker than the hull color to me:


Agreed on the darker shadowing and the thin ring just behind the main dish looks copper too. but I think that is a shadow as well.. 

But thank you SO much for the awesome photo!!!

:wave:


----------



## kdaracal

vulcangodoffire said:


> its is indeed the same color. in the show(unremastered) the shadowing of the raised detail makes it appear slightly darker. however stills both black and white and color for 66-69 show it to be the same and the restoration at the smith is the same color. if i can find my pics ill post one i know i took a pic of that detail.


Agreed. I'll go with main body color....Thank you so much for the quick feed back. :wave:


----------



## kdaracal

kdaracal said:


> Agreed on the darker shadowing and the thin ring just behind the main dish looks copper too. but I think that is a shadow as well..
> 
> But thank you SO much for the awesome photo!!!
> 
> :wave:


I saw one build (Maybe Tim Nolan?) that painted that thin ring to match the main copper dish. It looks awesome.


----------



## Proper2

kdaracal said:


> Agreed on the darker shadowing and the thin ring just behind the main dish looks copper too. but I think that is a shadow as well..


I believe that in fact the copper ring WAS painted copper and not a shadow. Anything that looks copper in the pic near the deflector area I'm sure was copper.


----------



## kdaracal

Proper2 said:


> I believe that in fact the copper ring WAS painted copper and not a shadow. Anything that looks copper in the pic I'm sure was copper.


:thumbsup:

But I wouldn't know how to BEGIN masking that pup.....


----------



## vulcangodoffire

i was thinking of using a copper ring to. but it is not there at all


----------



## vulcangodoffire

having spent at least 10 years restoring cars masking that is easy. this is how you do it.
start with 1/16 or 1/8 masking tape vinyl masking tape much better. then piece by piece regular masking tape all the way around usually in about 1/2 pieces. 3rd layer is when you use your paper to mask off everything behind it.


----------



## Proper2

kdaracal said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> But I wouldn't know how to BEGIN masking that pup.....


Here's the MR for reference:


----------



## Trekkriffic

Proper2 said:


> Here's the MR for reference:


Personally I don't think it was copper... more like rust. A second rust ring?


----------



## vulcangodoffire

how interesting.
regardless tho wither it was there to begin with or not it IS a cool piece of detail. 
to be honest ill probably get shot for this but there are a couple cool details from a few of the cgi models from the remastered that i think would look amazing on the kit that deffenently were not on the original.


----------



## Proper2

Trekkriffic said:


> Personally I don't think it was copper... more like rust. A second rust ring?



I dunno, maybe... on my MR it appears to be of the same copper color as the deflector, just applied more thinly.


----------



## kdaracal

Proper2 said:


> Here's the MR for reference:


Man, that is a subtle effect! I love the copper/rust ring. Very sharp build.


----------



## Trekkriffic

Proper2 said:


> I dunno, maybe... on my MR it appears to be of the same copper color as the deflector, just applied more thinly.


When I built my 18 incher several years ago I used images taken of the E after her last "restoration". So I made the deflector ring copper colored using copper colored gel ink pens. I have to admit it looks good if you do it subtly.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/9473539577/


----------



## Gregatron

Personally, I'm quite sure that the ring is hull-colored, not copper. The copperish look is an optical illusion.


----------



## Proper2

Gregatron said:


> Personally, I'm quite sure that the ring is hull-colored, not copper. The copperish look is an optical illusion.


There was definitely a copper-colored ring painted on the studio model as can be seen in the pic in post #1615.


----------



## Gregatron

Proper2 said:


> There was definitely a copper-colored ring painted on the studio model as can be seen in the pic in post #1615.



I would not be inclined to fully trust a restored and color-corrected film frame.


----------



## John P

Me last night, examining the coat of paint on my saucer: "Great! Perfect! Let me just give it one more coat to make sure..." and glob my fingers in the wet paint on the rim as I set it down. :freak:


----------



## jgoldsack

John P said:


> Me last night, examining the coat of paint on my saucer: "Great! Perfect! Let me just give it one more coat to make sure..." and glob my fingers in the wet paint on the rim as I set it down. :freak:


Well, something had to go wrong... if it wasn't the electronics.. had to be SOMETHING!


----------



## harristotle

John P said:


> Me last night, examining the coat of paint on my saucer: "Great! Perfect! Let me just give it one more coat to make sure..." and glob my fingers in the wet paint on the rim as I set it down. :freak:


That's the worst!


----------



## Trekkriffic

John P said:


> Me last night, examining the coat of paint on my saucer: "Great! Perfect! Let me just give it one more coat to make sure..." and glob my fingers in the wet paint on the rim as I set it down. :freak:


Sounds par for the course for this build.


----------



## John P

Let it dry, sanded the boo boo, applied more paint. All is well now. :lol:


----------



## SteveR

Proper2 said:


> There was definitely a copper-colored ring painted on the studio model as can be seen in the pic in post #1615.


Behind the nav deflector housing? My eye sees a grey ring between brownish shadows fore and aft. The shadows may be enhanced by weathering, colour-correction and/or multiple-generation artifacts.


----------



## Gregatron

SteveR said:


> Behind the nav deflector housing? My eye sees a grey ring between brownish shadows fore and aft. The shadows may be enhanced by weathering, colour-correction and/or multiple-generation artifacts.


Exactly. The shadows give the illusion that the ring is darker.


----------



## J_Indy

kdaracal said:


> Agreed on the darker shadowing and the thin ring just behind the main dish looks copper too. but I think that is a shadow as well..
> 
> But thank you SO much for the awesome photo!!!
> 
> :wave:


Well, something is off in the coloring of that pic, since the BB looks almost the same color as the E when I think it is supposed to be more rust-colored...

http://images.wikia.com/memoryalpha/en/images/f/fd/SS_Botany_Bay_studio_model_at_the_Smithonian.jpg

If anyone can do a color correction on that pic and bring the BB closer to its true color, maybe that would clear up the color of the ring on the E.

Also interesting to note that the deflector dish is skewed slightly downward.

Gravity?


----------



## SteveR

J_Indy said:


> Well, something is off in the coloring of that pic, since the BB looks almost the same color as the E when I think it is supposed to be more rust-colored...


Well, if you click on my pic, you'll see that the middle band is the same colour as the hull sections on either side. Regardless of the overall balance of the shot, I'd think that this image establishes that the middle band is the same grey as the rest of the hull.

My assumption, of course, is that nobody went in and did secondary color correction on the thin band under discussion to make it match the hull sections on either side. That would be unlikely.


----------



## Carson Dyle

SteveR said:


> My assumption, of course, is that nobody went in and did secondary color correction on the thin band under discussion to make it match the hull sections on either side. That would be unlikely.


Yeah, the ring's base color appears to be same as the surrounding hull. The recessed areas do look as though they've been weathered to convey a greater sense of depth (probably the same reddish-brown tone(s) comprising the saucer's infamous "rust ring").


----------



## J_Indy

Just a nutty thought - but is it possible that the band is actually painted hull-color (when the ship is in side-view), but the 2 rings (starting at the main hull and then the 1st part of the forward "step") from the frontal view only have a slightly more copperish/rust color?

When the ship is viewed at 3/4, the visual blend (in shoddy photography of the time) might make for an optical illusion that appears/disappears depending on the lighting and angle...

Just wondering....


----------



## Trek Ace

The ring was never a solid red, rust, copper, or any other color than that of the hull. Weathering and shading made it look the way it did.


----------



## Proper2

Trek Ace said:


> The ring was never a solid red, rust, copper, or any other color than that of the hull. Weathering and shading made it look the way it did.


Well, if "weathering" is the correct term for adding a different color over a base hull color then I guess it was weathering... but technically it's changing the color. I remember hearing somewhere that a copper or copper-like color was added diffusely.


----------



## Trek Ace

Trek Ace said:


> The ring was *never* *a* *solid* red, rust, copper, or any other color than that of the hull. Weathering and shading made it look the way it did.



Just to emphasize what I stated earlier.


----------



## Proper2

J_Indy said:


> Well, something is off in the coloring of that pic, since the BB looks almost the same color as the E when I think it is supposed to be more rust-colored...


There was an extensive discussion on another thread about the color of the BB and why it looks white-grey as opposed to the tan color that it was painted. It has to do with the filming lights in the studio. That's also why it looked like that on screen. See: http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=390224&page=4 post #60.


----------



## kdaracal

Wonderful research, gentlemen!! Nice to follow this.....:wave:


----------



## John P

Okay, I don't believe I did this - when I was removing the masking from the port aft saucer windows, the clear part came loose and fell inside! I figured that was all she wrote. But I actually managed to jiggle it back in place by poking at it thru the skylight with a scribing tool!  ! Globs of superglue inside and drips of Tenax outside should keep that sucker where it's supposed to be now!


----------



## PixelMagic

John P said:


> Okay, I don't believe I did this - when I was removing the masking from the port aft saucer windows, the clear part came loose and fell inside! I figured that was all she wrote. But I actually managed to jiggle it back in place by poking at it thru the skylight with a scribing tool!  ! Globs of superglue inside and drips of Tenax outside should keep that sucker where it's supposed to be now!


That's quite incredible that you managed to salvage it.


----------



## vulcangodoffire

John P said:


> Okay, I don't believe I did this - when I was removing the masking from the port aft saucer windows, the clear part came loose and fell inside! I figured that was all she wrote. But I actually managed to jiggle it back in place by poking at it thru the skylight with a scribing tool!  ! Globs of superglue inside and drips of Tenax outside should keep that sucker where it's supposed to be now!


NICE save!!!!

as for the previous discussion . it seams to be the consensus of the band is hull color. the pics i posted of the disassembly is before ANY restoration the first time around. he didn't remove any specific paint or any detail at that time other than the sanding he started to get to screws to disassemble it. 
those are all untouched up pics. it is very clear that there is no weathered or other wise colored ring. however. i still agree that its a cool effect and paint how it looks good to you.
the MR unit was built form the same plans as the pl350 kit and also they used the SAME reference photos which included the one that was posted earlier that looks to have a copper tone ring at the place in question. its easy to make that kind of "mistake" if that what you want to call it form a retouched photo. they did not have the disassembly photos for reference nor did the person who created the original plans for the 350 scale that BOTH mr and pl used for the build , that i am aware of. it does look cool and quite frankly ill probably do it myself on at least one build. but it is not a real detail and never existed. that's my last 2 credits worth on that . provide facts and then im still gona do what looks good wither its cannon or not


----------



## jgoldsack

http://www.startrekhistory.com/models.html

Looks like the vast majority of the pictures here show it as hull color.


----------



## Proper2

jgoldsack said:


> http://www.startrekhistory.com/models.html
> 
> Looks like the vast majority of the pictures here show it as hull color.


This is a great website. There's no doubt that the original pre-production model shows no weathering on the rings. The changes made to the model in '66 are not visually conclusive but it does appear that there was no revision done to this area. So, I must concede that there was no coloring/weathering to the rings that I can see. 

However, I did read on that website that one of the changes done to the dorsal was that it was repainted with a darker color at the leading AND the receding edge. I was only aware of the leading edge as being darker on the production version.


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## vulcangodoffire

jgoldsack said:


> http://www.startrekhistory.com/models.html
> 
> Looks like the vast majority of the pictures here show it as hull color.


unfourtantly those are color corrected preproduction pilot pics. and for the most part unusable for the debate at hand...lol. tho i did post an uncorrected version of one of them and your right it wasn't there either but again pilot.


----------



## Proper2

vulcangodoffire said:


> unfourtantly those are color corrected preproduction pilot pics. and for the most part unusable for the debate at hand...lol. tho i did post an uncorrected version of one of them and your right it wasn't there either but again pilot.


Yeah, there's no debate that there was no added color on the rings on the pilot version.


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## vulcangodoffire

yep you are correct, the production version has a green/gray leading edge. as for the trailing edge. i was not aware of that and don't see it in my files of pics.. but to be honest. as far as i can tell there isn't one single clear trailing edge pic with a good head on or even up close from the side of that detail.( i have one color corrected pic.... and that is most certainty inconclusive.)
even the disassembly pics don't show it to well. the the color tone of the leading edge in those pics is hard to tell but tis there.


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## Proper2

vulcangodoffire said:


> yep you are correct, the production version has a green/gray leading edge. as for the trailing edge. i was not aware of that and don't see it in my files of pics...


Yeah, I'm referring to this page RE the dorsal areas:


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## vulcangodoffire

here is a pic of the dorsal during disassembly it actually does have a decent shot of the back not much in the way of color change in the trailing edge but you can see the subtle difference on the leading edge. 

http://www.modelermagic.com/wordpre...03/kg_star-trek_tos_1701_studio_model-059.jpg


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## vulcangodoffire

here is a slightly different angle of the trailing edge. its still some what unclear if there is a color difference.

http://www.modelermagic.com/wordpre...03/kg_star-trek_tos_1701_studio_model-060.jpg


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## Proper2

Hmm, I don't see any color difference on the back dorsal...


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## vulcangodoffire

right me either. like i said that was the first i heard of it(or at least that's what i eluded to ...lol) if tis there its extremely subtle.


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## vulcangodoffire

one last pic. previously i said that the disassembly pics didn't show it. well these last 3 were not in my folder and the posted web site has 10 more pics of the disassembly than i do. that's where all of these came form and not my collection.

this last pic may possibly show a slight color change but if it is indeed different, its a blended paint job instead of the straight line masking and paint job on the leading edge. perhaps its just lighting. 

http://www.modelermagic.com/wordpre...03/kg_star-trek_tos_1701_studio_model-094.jpg


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## Trekkriffic

vulcangodoffire said:


> one last pic. previously i said that the disassembly pics didn't show it. well these last 3 were not in my folder and the posted web site has 10 more pics of the disassembly than i do. that's where all of these came form and not my collection.
> 
> this last pic may possibly show a slight color change but if it is indeed different, its a blended paint job instead of the straight line masking and paint job on the leading edge. perhaps its just lighting.
> 
> http://www.modelermagic.com/wordpre...03/kg_star-trek_tos_1701_studio_model-094.jpg


It almost loloks like a lighter color was sprayed on and then overcoated with a thinned down layer of the main color. More of a subtle tonal variation than a whole other color.


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## vulcangodoffire

ya don't know..........
suppose its possible. its just not quite as cut and dry as other phantom details that may or may not have existed..


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## vulcangodoffire

hey trek was it you suggesting about a month ago to add a flyback diode 50volt to my motors since i as controlling them with a rf light strip controller?


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## Trekkriffic

vulcangodoffire said:


> hey trek was it you suggesting about a month ago to add a flyback diode 50volt to my motors since i as controlling them with a rf light strip controller?


No. That may have been JHauser.


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## vulcangodoffire

*Frustraited!!!!*

so i have been experimenting with fader circuits for my impulse engines..
i found a circuit that supposedly faded or ramped up and then back down using two 1100uf caps and a 1k 10k and 100k resistor 1000v diode and a b547 transistor.
NOT!!!!! if they call that fade im green blooded! lol

thankfully i bought a lot of parts but now im almost out(of required resistors and only 2 diodes left plenty of caps and transistors left) i have one that mostly works, the ramp up is a bit faster than the ramp down. i KNOW this can work i just don't have enough experience.

the current set up is 3 2200uf caps 2 1k resistors 1 10k 1 100k a 1000v diode and the b547 transistor.
i had it working perfectly about 1.5 seconds to ramp up and the same down when it was all twisted together..
i didn't change anything that im aware of when i cleaned up the wiring and soldered it all together but when it was done it was instant on and then about 1 second to go off.
i replaced the first resistor that was 370ohm going form the first cap + to the second cap + with a 1k. this fixed most of the issue but im only getting about .75seocnds ramp up and 1 second ramp down.

it worked before it was soldered.
so the issue at hand is, and this is for our electronic gurus here PLEASE HELP!!! i cant post a pic of the circuit because what i used was meant for 2 caps everything else i added myself through experimentation. i only have 2 1k ohm resistors left so i have to get it right this time.
can somebody draw a basic diagram and then explaine it step by step? i KNOW im missing something basic but i only know enough to be dangerous not proficient. also secondary question like i said im almost out of resistors specific to this project. can a 470 and 530 ohm resistor be wired in series to do the same job as a single 1k ohm resistor? Rossw or JHauser or any of the other electronics guys i could really use some assistance.


----------



## RossW

vulcangodoffire said:


> so i have been experimenting with fader circuits for my impulse engines..
> i found a circuit that supposedly faded or ramped up and then back down using two 1100uf caps and a 1k 10k and 100k resistor 1000v diode and a b547 transistor.
> NOT!!!!! if they call that fade im green blooded! lol
> 
> thankfully i bought a lot of parts but now im almost out(of required resistors and only 2 diodes left plenty of caps and transistors left) i have one that mostly works, the ramp up is a bit faster than the ramp down. i KNOW this can work i just don't have enough experience.
> 
> the current set up is 3 2200uf caps 2 1k resistors 1 10k 1 100k a 1000v diode and the b547 transistor.
> i had it working perfectly about 1.5 seconds to ramp up and the same down when it was all twisted together..
> i didn't change anything that im aware of when i cleaned up the wiring and soldered it all together but when it was done it was instant on and then about 1 second to go off.
> i replaced the first resistor that was 370ohm going form the first cap + to the second cap + with a 1k. this fixed most of the issue but im only getting about .75seocnds ramp up and 1 second ramp down.
> 
> it worked before it was soldered.
> so the issue at hand is, and this is for our electronic gurus here PLEASE HELP!!! i cant post a pic of the circuit because what i used was meant for 2 caps everything else i added myself through experimentation. i only have 2 1k ohm resistors left so i have to get it right this time.
> can somebody draw a basic diagram and then explaine it step by step? i KNOW im missing something basic but i only know enough to be dangerous not proficient. also secondary question like i said im almost out of resistors specific to this project. can a 470 and 530 ohm resistor be wired in series to do the same job as a single 1k ohm resistor? Rossw or JHauser or any of the other electronics guys i could really use some assistance.


I wish I could help here but I've been looking all over for a hardware fade in/out circuit and haven't found one that works for me (can't get the timings right, and never could find one which can do both fade in and out). I use PIC microcontrolers with PWM to do fades so that ended up being easier (for me).

Have a look here - second circuit down the page where the author says, "It works!". I found this by googling so maybe you'll have better luck. If you do find something, please post it here as I'm still interested to see if this can be made to work.


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## vulcangodoffire

apparently practice make perfect.
slower fade up than down. 3.5 second for full power. a touch over 2 second down.
exactly what i wanted. im using amber leds so the voltage is a bit diff than red or white but id be happy to post the circuit ir a description i dont know how to draw it.
fade out is a simple cut in power. but its all controlled by remote relays. so it work perfect.


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## vulcangodoffire

i looked at that posting. way more complicated than what i did. 
this is a description of what i have. b547 transistor attached to its base is a n4007 1000v diode. twisted in a way that isolates it at the end of the diode wire( i found the reason my circuits wernt working is because when i just twisted things together including the resistor that goes between the diode and transistor when its soldered the solder somehow bypasses every thing and just makes a straight connection. as bad as that sounds because its all connected together its the only thing i can come up with its the ONLY thing different i did this time)
anyway between the negative pole and base of the transistor is a resistor withe the code brown black orange gold 1k i think
at the the end of the diode is a 100k resistor brown black yellow gold.
that's that part i soldered together first. i attached it later.
next is assembly of the caps 3 side by side. i found that super gluing them together helped keep things straight.
starting with the negative side(all caps have the negative face aligned faceing out). the center poll sticks up with out alteration. both the left and right ones wrap around the center poll as close to the base as possible then solder.
turning the circuit over to the positive side the right cap is where power enters.it is not directly connected to the center one but rather i used a blue gray brown gold i believe 680 ohm resistor to connect the first positive terminal to the center one. the left positive is directly connected to the center and soldered in place at the same time the positive 680 ohm resistor is soldered.the rest of the center positive poll is used to solder the 100k diode transistor poll or whatever you want to call it. make sure that when soldering the lable of the transistor is facing you. i do not remember which is collector and whihc is emitter but it does indeed matter.(im a nube so this is for nubes lol)
on the left cap soldered to the farthest point possible of the positive terminal is the last resistor 1k i dont remember the bands they are now covered with shrink tube.
from there i work back to the brown black orange resistor at the negative poll of the diode and solder the other end to the center negative pole.
last step wire connections.
input is simply connected to the right cap as your looking at the positive side on that same cap for the negative front.
the center of the poll that is soldered over to the center poll wrap and solder a wire end then solder the other end to the left side of the transistor as your looking at the BACK side of the transistor( connecting the transistor correctly is detrimental to the operation of this circuit.)
positive output to the farthest point on the left terminal at the other end of the diode placed there.
negative power output/ground on the left terminal of the transistor while the label faces you.
this powers two amber leds at slightly under power of 1.95volts. the start out power is 12 volts i have not tested white led's but im testing red tomorrow on my 22" the amber's are for the 350


< update : there is a 10k resistor in here i think i will have to go through it all and find where ive mislabeled one. with out it this circuit will not work correctly as described. it is necessary for the functionality of the circuit to have 1 100k and one 10k in the circuit. the one at the beginning of the positive input and the one at the end for the output can be adjusted for application and timing but the 100k and 10k can not be adjusted or it just wont work right.> my apologies if some of this seams long winded and full of hot air. ive seen a lot of attempts at fader circuits and almost always it end up in an almost instant on and not a very good effect with the fade down.
somebody sent me a private message and confirmed what i came up with worked and said the only reason i got it to work was my lack of experience and knowledge. im ok with that. i know what i wanted and did a lot of experimenting. like ive said before if something i do can help somebody else out or be useful fantastic just glad it worked


----------



## vulcangodoffire

im sure that changing the resistor at the end of the circuit before the leds can change the required voltage to what ever leds are being used. this is connected to 2 leds at the same time and seams to be stable with out one being brighter than the other.


----------



## kdaracal

Here's a question: my lighted bussard dome assembly video instructions fron R2 said to not glue the subassembly but to pressure fit it for later service. But it is the loosest fitting place on the model. Anyone have a solution for snugging it up a bit?


----------



## [email protected]

kdaracal said:


> Here's a question: my lighted bussard dome assembly video instructions fron R2 said to not glue the subassembly but to pressure fit it for later service. But it is the loosest fitting place on the model. Anyone have a solution for snugging it up a bit?


Use white glue. You can always pull it apart if you need to.


----------



## kdaracal

[email protected] said:


> Use white glue. You can always pull it apart if you need to.


You're right. Best of both worlds. Thanks you sir!!


----------



## kdaracal

I keep picking your guy's brains but here is another perplexing problem. The nacelle supports will not fit inside the secondary hull holes. Here are some pics for reference:



Part # 54 glued in place:



Mount point on support: (all seems normal)



*Yea, I'm just trying to do some initial dry mounting for test fit, but it just won't fit...???*

Anyone have similar problems?


----------



## Wattanasiri

Just a suggestion to toss out there for consideration.

I purchased an Arduino Uno a couple of months ago. Many routines or "sketches" as they are called are available on several web sites including the Arduino web site (http://www.arduino.cc/) and Sparkfun, (https://www.sparkfun.com/) ... a place you can spend your money on Arduino related things as well. 

The Uno came as part of an $85 "inventor's kit" (https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11227) which provided all of the necessary parts (LEDs, a motor, a servo, sensors, shift register IC, small breadboard, jumper wires, resistors, diodes, transistors, etc.) plus a booklet with some simple tutorials to learn about what can be done with the Arduino; especially with LEDs.

So far, some of those tutorials have led to sketches for flashing LEDs at whatever ON and OFF rates I chose, double-flashing LEDs that could be used as strobe lights, randomly flashing OFF (I reversed the randomly flashing ON tutorial sketch) that may work inside engine nacelle domes of a certain starship model plus how to integrate shift register ICs in order to drive multiple LEDs. I am still at the "inventing" or to be more honest "playing" stage, but I see a great deal of promise using Arduinos for many models. The $10 Arduino Pro Mini is a little larger than a postage stamp but seems to have all of the functionality of the larger Arduinos. 

Being able to work with electronic circuits, some basic understanding of computer programming and soldering will help to make the Arduino experience enjoyable and it has been fun.


----------



## Fozzie

Wattanasiri said:


> I purchased an Arduino Uno a couple of months ago...
> 
> So far, some of those tutorials have led to sketches for flashing LEDs at whatever ON and OFF rates I chose, double-flashing LEDs that could be used as strobe lights, randomly flashing OFF (I reversed the randomly flashing ON tutorial sketch) that may work inside engine nacelle domes of a certain starship model...


I am using an Arduino to handle all the lighting control in my NX-01 1:350 build. It is a fantastic platform for this kind of thing. Since I will leave the USB port on the Arduino accessible, I will be able to tweak the function of the lights (particularly the 7 bussard lights) even after the model is built.

To keep this on topic, if I were to build another 1:350 TOS _Enterprise_, I would build my own bussard lighting using an Arduino. I think the Polar Lights solution is great, but I would do it slightly differently.


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## LGFugate

Kdaracal,

I had the same problem. I used a fine sanding stick to remove a VERY small amount of plastic on the part to be inserted until I could get a tight fit. From your experience, where is the fit too tight? (On the wide part of the stub or the narrow?)

Larry


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## Trekkriffic

LGFugate said:


> Kdaracal,
> 
> I had the same problem. I used a fine sanding stick to remove a VERY small amount of plastic on the part to be inserted until I could get a tight fit. From your experience, where is the fit too tight? (On the wide part of the stub or the narrow?)
> 
> Larry


Yep. I had the same trouble getting the nacelles to slide into the secondary hull. Had to do some sanding using a big sanding stick with some 80 grit.


----------



## John F

Same here, I had to knock all the corners off with a file to get the part to slide in.


----------



## kdaracal

Thanks, guys. I'll be doing some sanding tonight! As usual, I appreciate everyone's help!!


----------



## JHauser

kdaracal said:


> I keep picking your guy's brains but here is another perplexing problem. The nacelle supports will not fit inside the secondary hull holes. Here are some pics for reference:
> 
> 
> 
> Part # 54 glued in place:
> 
> 
> 
> Mount point on support: (all seems normal)
> 
> 
> 
> *Yea, I'm just trying to do some initial dry mounting for test fit, but it just won't fit...???*
> 
> Anyone have similar problems?


Are you sure you're holding your tongue right when you're fitting them up? I find if I switch side it helps.


----------



## kdaracal

JHauser said:


> Are you sure you're holding your tongue right when you're fitting them up? I find if I switch side it helps.


Actually, I tried it BOTH ways, although I think one assembly goes in one side and the other in the other, ONLY. :wave:


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## LGFugate

Hey all!

Stupid question to be sure, but here goes:

How do you paint the clear bridge and hangar deck pieces making sure the places the lights supposed to come thru are left clear? I've practiced on the opaque parts, but since I use acrylic craft paints, the plastic needs to be primed first. I did purchase the Paragraphics photo-etch set, and the question I have on that is do you anneal a part once it's separated, or do I anneal it while it's on the main etch? There are a LOT of small parts that need annealed, so that's why I'm asking.

Thanks for any help!

Larry


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## Paulbo

None of the parts NEED to be annealed. You can bend the bridge parts and form the hangar ceiling with finger pressure. Get them to shape, primer, paint, then attach.


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## vulcangodoffire

those photoetch parts are fantastic.
also you will find that the spaces between the celling lights what ever. basically the frame of the photoetch part.. 1.5mm masking or pin strip tape is a perfect fit. just cut to length and place. works great.


----------



## KimD

Hi all,

Just a tip for people doing the lit version I am using 732 RTV sealant to hold down the leds, wires and can be placed on pcbs. Its non conductive and acid free. Works on glass, metal and plastic (comes in clear and black).


----------



## tony1tech

Hi everyone I have a question about part #138 on this kit it is the 2 clear pieces which are suppose to be clear green & clear red on front top of nacelles directly behind bussard. on the studio model they are not lit at all but does anyone know what these actually are it always seemed logical to me that these are also nav. lights being their position and colors are they the same colors on studio model.


----------



## Opus Penguin

tony1tech said:


> Hi everyone I have a question about part #138 on this kit it is the 2 clear pieces which are suppose to be clear green & clear red on front top of nacelles directly behind bussard. on the studio model they are not lit at all but does anyone know what these actually are it always seemed logical to me that these are also nav. lights being their position and colors are they the same colors on studio model.


I believe it is assumed they are navigational lights, but were never lit on the show. I left mine unlit to match the studio model.


----------



## Trekkriffic

Opus Penguin said:


> I believe it is assumed they are navigational lights, but were never lit on the show. I left mine unlit to match the studio model.


Same here. And I noticed the lighting kit did not include colored versions of the clear bits included with the kit so I think they were meaant to be clear on the studio model if they'd ever been lit.


----------



## tony1tech

Just wondering I actually lit mine on my build and posted video of build on youtube just to have someone tell me they were not lit on studio model I already knew that and comment on me lighting internal nacelle grills because they weren't on the studio model, I knew that also, but I finally realized by looking at this persons post he does that to everyone tells them whats incorrect then says "nice job" I'm about to pull all my wiring out port side & expose it so it will be just like the studio model. why do people feel the need to tell you whats wrong, with this is suppose to be fun & creative, Amazingly he hasn't said anything about grid lines being visable I guess I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. P.S if You want to see my highly unimaginative,super inaccurate build,here you go.


----------



## kdaracal

tony1tech said:


> Just wondering I actually lit mine on my build and posted video of build on youtube just to have someone tell me they were not lit on studio model I already knew that and comment on me lighting internal nacelle grills because they weren't on the studio model, I knew that also, but I finally realized by looking at this persons post he does that to everyone tells them whats incorrect then says "nice job" I'm about to pull all my wiring out port side & expose it so it will be just like the studio model. why do people feel the need to tell you whats wrong, with this is suppose to be fun & creative, Amazingly he hasn't said anything about grid lines being visable I guess I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. P.S if You want to see my highly unimaginative,super inaccurate build,here you go.Polar Lights 1/350 tos USS Enterprise build - YouTube


Flawless, beautiful, amazing. I'll wait for any other shoe to drop as long as I get to see more of this build. THAT'S a freakishly good build.


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## kdaracal

Yea, I saw the grid lines, tony1tech. I'd just throw that piece of junk in the trash. Or just send it my way. I'll pack it with firecrackers or something. (Or enter it into a couple dozen contests)


----------



## tony1tech

Would you also like me to yank out all wiring so that it is exposed & viewable on port side first so you get a studio accurate model I'm sure I could trace all my wires & disable all the offensive incorrect lighting what was I thinking Using my brain to design a sophisticated lighting system,designing my own flashing circuits & speed control why did I ever become a model builder at all I wish I didn't have an original thought in my head & never became an Electronic Tech..Oh I remember because Its fun & I learn new skills on each build "But damn theres still the saucer gridlines" Your absolutelyly right it's an abomination & should be trashed!! whew I'm winded.:wave:


----------



## SteveR

Um ... Tony, did you read kdradacal's last line in brackets?


----------



## tony1tech

Yeah I did, I was not even upset in my rant only joking thats why i did :wave: at the end.


----------



## RossW

Beautiful build, Tony. I love the idea of lighting the base so it illuminates the model from underneath.

BTW, did you use PWM to fade in/out the impulse engines? Or some other method?


----------



## SteveR

tony1tech said:


> Yeah I did, I was not even upset in my rant only joking thats why i did :wave: at the end.


Ah. Carry on ...


----------



## tony1tech

Hi Ross I did all of this on the fly so I don't know actual values of resistors & capacitors I kind of experimented with different values I recall 1 resistor and 1 large capacitor. capacitor are in parallel with power supply so they charge when power is applied then a current limiting resistor goes to + anode lead of led & - cathode connected to ground and when power is disrupted capacitor take over and discharge into led's which cause a fade effect as capacitor discharges. I think I might have added a 2nd resistor for the slight power up delay that took some experimentation I'll try to find out when I get a chance.


----------



## StarshipClass

tony1tech said:


> .Polar Lights 1/350 tos USS Enterprise build - YouTube


WOW!  That's the way to do it! I like the fact that you can display the shuttlebay doors closed or opened with shuttlecraft inside! Great paint job and the lighting is to die for! :thumbsup:


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## kdaracal

Seriously, though. You should have that featured in Finescale or that British model magazine or something. I'd love some more pics and to read and interview of your escapades.


----------



## rkoenn

A question for the group? I am in the middle of my build and am using the PL lighting kit. My problem at the moment is with the shuttle bay. I have it assembled and noticed when test fitting it, sans lighting, that I cannot get the rear of the hull top seam to close completely over the bay. The bay is preventing it from closing by about 1/16". Has anyone had this problem with theirs and how did they resolve it? I don't even have the lights installed on it and those look to make the problem worse. So before I get the grinding tool out I thought I'd ask here. Thanks in advance.


----------



## Trekkriffic

rkoenn said:


> A question for the group? I am in the middle of my build and am using the PL lighting kit. My problem at the moment is with the shuttle bay. I have it assembled and noticed when test fitting it, sans lighting, that I cannot get the rear of the hull top seam to close completely over the bay. The bay is preventing it from closing by about 1/16". Has anyone had this problem with theirs and how did they resolve it? I don't even have the lights installed on it and those look to make the problem worse. So before I get the grinding tool out I thought I'd ask here. Thanks in advance.


I was able to get mine closed but it was a lot of work. One thing I had to do was grind down the back of the hull window inserts that flank the bay. I basically sliced off the back plates and glued the windows in with CA so the inner widow surface was flush with the hull. The other thing is, the wiring harnesses for the lighting kit that go over the top of the bay are too thick. I swapped the round LED's out for small, flatter warn white SMD LED's with 30 AWG wires soldered to them running in a parallel circuit along the sides of the trench in the middle of the ceiling with the wires running out the rear of the bay. The big rectangular LED that sits under the dome over the doors had to be ground down and thinned to about half it's original thickness too with the wires runnning over the center of the door arch, then sideways in two grooves I carved into the clear ceiling then backwards using the hollow trenches of the two support beams on either side of the ceiling which the lighting kit tells you to use for running the wiring harnesses of the two LEDs they use for the ceiling lights at the front of the bay which I didn't use. Even with all that done I still ran into clearance issues so I ended up thinning the base of the oblong three light insert (the one with the green lights and a hole in between for gluing in the middle raised oval red light) that fits above the bay. I also had to thin the hull plastic so the insert sits flush. The other major areas where I had to thin the hull were at the rear of the bay where the four LEDs mount to brackets on the sides of the rear bay wall. I probably removed about 1/16" of the inner hull on each side. I also had to grind the sides of the LED's down and shorten the bracket ears. After all that I was finally able to get the hul to close.


IMG_4393 by trekriffic, on Flickr


IMG_4390 by trekriffic, on Flickr


IMG_4400 by trekriffic, on Flickr



IMG_4401 by trekriffic, on Flickr


IMG_4389 by trekriffic, on Flickr


IMG_5058 by trekriffic, on Flickr


----------



## J_Indy

Does anyone know for sure what color the fan blades in the bussards are?

I've seen people do them from black to silver to a shade of gray, so it doesn't seem that there is a consensus.

I was wondering if the prop guys at the time would have kept some consistency and colored the fan blades the same dark red/maroon color of the 2nd pilot solid domes (with the spikes).

With them spinning and back-lighted by the Christmas lights, it's hard to tell what color they were...


----------



## RossW

I imagine they were metal, probably aluminum. I tried black at first but they were too dark. Even if they were darker at the 11' size, to my mind at least a mid-tone grey looks best. I did Tamiya smoke.


----------



## J_Indy

RossW said:


> I imagine they were metal, probably aluminum. I tried black at first but they were too dark. Even if they were darker at the 11' size, to my mind at least a mid-tone grey looks best. I did Tamiya smoke.
> 
> http://youtu.be/MtOKf2teAms


That looks really good.

I guess they would have to have been made of metal, but was wondering if anyone knew for sure if they had been colored.

The only color that came to mind to me was the color of the earlier solid domes, since it would be a logical carry-over if any color was used at all.

But - can't tell by looking at the old vids...


----------



## SteveR

RossW said:


> I imagine they were metal, probably aluminum. I tried black at first but they were too dark. Even if they were darker at the 11' size, to my mind at least a mid-tone grey looks best. I did Tamiya smoke.


I concur. Solid or black looks too dark to my eye, so Smoke is about right.


----------



## KimD

I can't seem to find a good reference photo of the thre lights on the top back of the secondary hull. I believe the center one is red but does anyone know what colour al three are?


----------



## RossW

Check out the box top - it's shown on one of the side panels. Red, Amber & Yellow are the colours (in order of height, I believe)


----------



## Trekkriffic

RossW said:


> Check out the box top - it's shown on one of the side panels. Red, Amber & Yellow are the colours (in order of height, I believe)


I think perhaps KimD is referring to the three lights all in a row on the spine midway between the nacelle pylons and the dome above the doors. 
Those are green, red, and green.


----------



## Trekkriffic

RossW said:


> Check out the box top - it's shown on one of the side panels. Red, Amber & Yellow are the colours (in order of height, I believe)


I think perhaps KimD is referringto the three lights all in a row on the spine midway between the nacelle pylons and the dome above the doors. 
Those are green, red, and green. 


IMG_5215 by trekriffic, on Flickr


----------



## KimD

Thanks Trekkrific,
yes I was reffering to the three lights on the spine. What was your source material.


----------



## KimD

:tongue:Thanks Trekkrific,
yes I was reffering to the three lights on the spine. What was your source material.


----------



## Trekkriffic

KimD said:


> :tongue:Thanks Trekkrific,
> yes I was reffering to the three lights on the spine. What was your source material.


There's a scene in The Lights of Zetar of the Enterprise from behind and slightly to starboard when it's being attacked by the alien "twinkling lights" off it's bow. You can see the lights- not very clearly but enough to see the red light in the middle, green light in front, and to be honest, either a greenish or yellowish light in the rear. The lighting kit from Polar Lights had a green insert with the two green lights molded on and an indent in the center for the oblong shaped red light to be inserted. The red light is taller than the other two and shaped differently. I went with green since that's what the insert had.


----------



## Wattanasiri

This scene seems to show those lights the best.


----------



## KimD

Thanks everyone, green red green it will be.


----------



## Mark2000

Hello there! Lurker and total noob here. Both to the forum and modelling. If any of you frequent trekbbs at all I go by the same handle there. I've worked on fan materials like the Klingon Propaganda film and the currently running web comic at trekcomic.com. I've read through this entire thread and still have a few questions about the 1/350 E and modelling in general if you don't mind my asking.

I'm on the fence about some parts of the building process. I know I'm going to light, but I'm not sure I want to do the tiny bridge insides. I prefer a lit frosted dome and there doesn't seem to be a way to have the bridge and light the dome the the same time. Am I wrong about that?

I do want to do the shuttle bay. What methods are people using to have a removable bay door?

As far as the windows and masking: Is masking necessary? I've heard of painting and scraping them which, in theory, sounds easier but also messier. Any thoughts?

I'd like to mask the pennants and text, probably with aztec's latex ones, instead of using decals. I've done some stencil work before with painting and quickly removing the stencil before the paint dries. Is that the best method or should you wait for paint the dry first? The first way I'm guessing could smudge, but the second could pull paint up at the edges.

That's all I can think of for now. Appreciate any help.


----------



## SteveR

Mark2000 said:


> I prefer a lit frosted dome and there doesn't seem to be a way to have the bridge and light the dome the the same time. Am I wrong about that?


Nope, you can place a tiny LED between the dome "roof" and a plastic "ceiling", then hinge the dome. 

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=393155&page=6


----------



## RossW

SteveR said:


> Nope, you can place a tiny LED between the dome "roof" and a plastic "ceiling", then hinge the dome.
> 
> http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=393155&page=6


Trekkrific used a SMD LED which he soldered himself. You can get pre-wired ones from HDAtx (HDAmodelworx.com) - I'm using them extensively in my 1/350 TOS E build (mainly for the sec hull spine lights/dome light and shuttle bay control room lights).

As to Mark2000's other questions:

- Trekkrific did a removable shuttle bay door. Watch his video here and his build here.
- Alternate window methods: (1) don't use the window inserts and fill in after painting with Microscale Krystal Klear or Canopy glue, or (2) paint all the part halves first, insert windows, glue together and then just touch up the seams.
- Orbital Drydock and Aztec Dummy make painting masks. Again, Trekkrific used them (Orbital Drydock's) and they seemed to have worked really well.


----------



## Trekkriffic

SteveR said:


> Nope, you can place a tiny LED between the dome "roof" and a plastic "ceiling", then hinge the dome.
> 
> http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=393155&page=6


One thing to note regarding my dome light referred to in the linked thread, if you are lighting the impulse engines you will have to use one of the unused ports on the lighting board if you buy the supplemental Round 2 lighting kit as the impulse LEDs will use both N ports. There are two undesignated ports on the board in the bottom row. I forget now whether they are wired up to supply 5 volts for a single LED or 12 volts for a lighting strip. If it's 12V, you'll need to solder a resistor to one leg of your LED or it will burn out. 

On my build I wasn't going to light the impulse engines originally so I tied my dome's SMD LED into one of the N ports providing 5V.
Later I decided to light the engines with two LEDs but having used one of the N ports for the dome light I only had one N port left so I wired two LEDs in parallel into the one port to split the current but not the voltage. This worked fine for the impulse engine LEDs but I should have done a test with them and the dome light on at the same time as I found (after I'd plugged everything into the board and seald up the saucer) that when I activated the impulse engines with two LEDs on one N port it caused the dome LED on the other N port to flicker and go out. When I shut the engines off the dome light comes back on. So I think the problem is both N ports share only so much amperage and there's not enough shared between the ports to feed 3 LEDs at once as they were only meant to power 2 LEDs. In retrospect I should have plugged the dome light into one of the two unused ports on the lighting board.


IMG_4846 by trekriffic, on Flickr


IMG_4915 by trekriffic, on Flickr

For the shuttle bay doors I cut out the center section of the closed door kit part so it fit snuggly into the open door kit part. The center door section needed a little shimming along the edges to get a tight fit and prevent light leaking thru from inside the shuttle bay. I did this by pressing the edge of the cut out center section against a piece of thin sheet styrene and tracing the arc along the edge in pencil before trimming with scissors to the thickness of the doors. I made two strips and glued them to the edge of the door on each side with CA. Then I puttied any gaps and sanded smooth before priming and paint. You need to be mindful of the angle of the door edges, they need to all be in the same plane so the cutout part mates up flush with the outer door panels of the open door part when inserting it. Insert the cutout doors so the top narrowest section slides in at an angle below and up under the control room housing that sits over the doors under the cowling. Then you can pivot and press the lower section of the doors in nice and tight against the outer door panels. I found that putting a tiny blob of "sticky wax" (like you find used on some of those small 3M clips) on the very top of the center section where it butts up against the underside of the control room works to keep it from falling off if you tilt the model. Others may try using magnets but that presents it's own challenges.

One other recommendation, if you buy the lighting kit and want to add impulse engine lights and light the troughs in the nacelles for a more remastered look without having to sacrifice lights in other parts of the model, as the instructions tell you to do, consider getting a beefier power supply. 
I added up all the current draw of the LEDs, motors, and the LEDs I planned to add to the base I was making and figured I needed more milli-amps. 
I ended up buying a 12V x 2 amp wall adapter from Modeller's Brand Hobby Supplies here:http://modelersbrand.com/html/item_pages/pwr_12v2a.html. It wasn't all that expensive and it gave me plenty of current to run everything at once without fear of starving any of the circuits.


----------



## RossW

Trekkriffic said:


> One thing to note regarding my dome light referred to in the linked thread, if you are lighting the impulse engines you will have to use one of the unused ports on the lighting board if you buy the supplemental Round 2 lighting kit as the impulse LEDs will use both N ports. There are two undesignated ports on the board in the bottom row. I forget now whether they are wired up to supply 5 volts for a single LED or 12 volts for a lighting strip. If it's 12V, you'll need to solder a resistor to one leg of your LED or it will burn out.


I'm pretty sure the 2 unused connectors supply 12V since for my *SE66 Supplemental Running Lights Kit* 



 I had to include a 5V voltage regulator for the PIC microcontroller.


----------



## Trekkriffic

RossW said:


> I'm pretty sure the 2 unused connectors supply 12V since for my *SE66 Supplemental Running Lights Kit* supplemental kit I had to include a 5V voltage regulator for the PIC microcontroller.


If that's the case you'd want to use a 470 ohm 1/8W resistor for your SMD LED.


----------



## Trekkriffic

Regarding paint masks for ship's registry and pennants I can't say enough good things about Orbital Drydock's mask set. The fit is perfect and his glue has just the right amount of adhesion, enough to prevent bleed and yet not pull up any paint. He even provides you with a Tamiya masking style tape sheet with masks for all the exterior hull windows and for the gallery windows in the shuttle bay. Really good stuff. 


IMG_5112 by trekriffic, on Flickr


IMG_5120 by trekriffic, on Flickr


IMG_5101 by trekriffic, on Flickr


IMG_5100 by trekriffic, on Flickr


IMG_5124 by trekriffic, on Flickr


IMG_5126 by trekriffic, on Flickr

Look! No silvering!


IMG_5128 by trekriffic, on Flickr

And if you really want to trick out the shuttle bay and bridge, definitely get ParaGrafix's photo-etch set. Paul even provides you with a tiny photo-etch Nomad probe which is easy to overlook if you don't look closely for it. I didn't find it until I'd finished the model unfortunately.


----------



## Mark2000

Trekriffic, thanks for the examples. That's one of the thing's I'm trying to figure out: what extras to buy. The secondary photoetch kit is pointless if I'm not doing the bridge. Same with the window masks if I can just scrape the paint out. $45 saved right there . I really like the weathering you've done. It's subtle and realistic looking, though I'll probably go with pastels instead of gel pen just because I'm used to it. I was planning to do the rust ring in pastels as well to give its a mottled appearance.

I had another question about the studio model. I kept reading that it was Roddenberry and Jefferies' intention to light the nacelle trenches, some say in blue. Is there any documentation backing that? If so I can't find it anywhere.


----------



## Gregatron

Trekkriffic said:


> And if you really want to trick out the shuttle bay and bridge, definitely get ParaGrafix's photo-etch set. Paul even provides you with a tiny photo-etch Nomad probe which is easy to overlook if you don't look closely for it. I didn't find it until I'd finished the model unfortunately.



That was my (half-joking) idea! I'm still tickled that he actually put it in!


----------



## Rocky1775

Trekkriffic said:


> Regarding paint masks for ship's registry and pennants I can't say enough good things about Orbital Drydock's mask set. The fit is perfect and his glue has just the right amount of adhesion, enough to prevent bleed and yet not pull up any paint. He even provides you with a Tamiya masking style tape sheet with masks for all the exterior hull windows and for the gallery windows in the shuttle bay. Really good stuff.
> 
> 
> IMG_5112 by trekriffic, on Flickr
> 
> 
> Look! No silvering!
> 
> 
> IMG_5128 by trekriffic, on Flickr
> 
> And if you really want to trick out the shuttle bay and bridge, definitely get ParaGrafix's photo-etch set. Paul even provides you with a tiny photo-etch Nomad probe which is easy to overlook if you don't look closely for it. I didn't find it until I'd finished the model unfortunately.


That looks awesome! Did you pencil on the grid lines? Or preshade with a dark putty? I was thinking of doing the latter, but I'd like to see what that looks like beforehand.

I just finished plowing through all 115 pages of posts here, to see if anyone has tried some of the things I have in mind. I have the PL lighting kit, but I want to be able to take the ship off of its stand. I think someone here mentioned something that I thought of doing: installing an audio jack at the top of the post. Has anyone done that? 

I was intimidated by this light kit before I started reading this thread, and I'm not feeling any less scared now. I just know I'll have the kit finished, and windows will fall in, LEDs will go dark, fly loose, or a connection will break inside and the whole thing will quit.


----------



## Trekkriffic

Rocky1775 said:


> That looks awesome! Did you pencil on the grid lines? Or preshade with a dark putty? I was thinking of doing the latter, but I'd like to see what that looks like beforehand.
> 
> I just finished plowing through all 115 pages of posts here, to see if anyone has tried some of the things I have in mind. I have the PL lighting kit, but I want to be able to take the ship off of its stand. I think someone here mentioned something that I thought of doing: installing an audio jack at the top of the post. Has anyone done that?
> 
> I was intimidated by this light kit before I started reading this thread, and I'm not feeling any less scared now. I just know I'll have the kit finished, and windows will fall in, LEDs will go dark, fly loose, or a connection will break inside and the whole thing will quit.


I penciled the gridlines on using a sharp 2H artist's pencil and a large protractor I bought at Harbor Freight:


IMG_4569 by trekriffic, on Flickr


IMG_4573 by trekriffic, on Flickr

I then oversprayed with more of the basecoat to mute the lines.

Here's how they looked on the lower saucer after overspraying:


IMG_4571 by trekriffic, on Flickr

I mounted my ship on a brass tube with a 4 pin mini-DIN plug:


IMG_4062 by trekriffic, on Flickr


IMG_4061 by trekriffic, on Flickr


IMG_4051 by trekriffic, on Flickr

I needed 4 contacts (2 negative and 2 positive) for running the bussard motors and lights on separate circuits hence the 4 pin plug. If you are only running one circuit you could use a phono (or RCA) style plug and jack. To hold the jack in place I packed epoxy putty in around the metal base inside the model. The plug was glued to the brass tube using 5-minute epoxy after the leads were soldered. 

One recommendation with the lighting kit- don't use the clips on the light strips, cut or desolder them off the ends of the wiring harnesses and solder the wires directly to the contacts on the strips. The clips have a way of working loose from what others have said so soldering the wires guarantees they will light up and stay lit. I also laid a piece of double-sided foam tape down under the strip for better adhesion to the hull. Once in place I squirted a dab of hot melt glue on top of the wire leads for added strain relief. For gluing the windows inserts into the hull openings I used Devcon 5-minute epoxy rather than CA or white glue. I wanted a strong bond that wouldn't harm paint; CA can break loose over time, will fog clear plastic, and can soften paint; white glue won't harm paint but is weaker and takes longer to dry. I had zero light leaks when I was done:


IMG_4387 by trekriffic, on Flickr


----------



## TonyT

Wow, what a thread...just got through this...great thread with a bunch of wonderful builds! I do have at least a couple of projects I want to complete before starting my premiere kit. I also bought the lighting kit, PE, weathering decals and the PG PE set. Lots of inspiration here!! Thanks to all for a great thread that I hope to contribute to at some point!


----------



## ronwojnar

*Photoetch advice*

I'm looking to install the nacelle vents from the PL sheet. I'm concerned about 2 things:

1. Should I simply install them over the pieces included with the model, or scratch-build something from sheet styrene?

2. How can I attach the PE to whatever method I use, and keep the adhesive from oozing up through the perforations in the PE?

PE n00b, so please be gentle with your responses!


----------



## Rocky1775

Trekkriffic said:


> I penciled the gridlines on using a sharp 2H artist's pencil and a large protractor I bought at Harbor Freight:
> 
> I then oversprayed with more of the basecoat to mute the lines.
> 
> I mounted my ship on a brass tube with a 4 pin mini-DIN plug.
> 
> I needed 4 contacts (2 negative and 2 positive) for running the bussard motors and lights on separate circuits hence the 4 pin plug. If you are only running one circuit you could use a phono (or RCA) style plug and jack. To hold the jack in place I packed epoxy putty in around the metal base inside the model. The plug was glued to the brass tube using 5-minute epoxy after the leads were soldered.
> 
> One recommendation with the lighting kit- don't use the clips on the light strips, cut or desolder them off the ends of the wiring harnesses and solder the wires directly to the contacts on the strips. The clips have a way of working loose from what others have said so soldering the wires guarantees they will light up and stay lit. I also laid a piece of double-sided foam tape down under the strip for better adhesion to the hull. Once in place I squirted a dab of hot melt glue on top of the wire leads for added strain relief. For gluing the windows inserts into the hull openings I used Devcon 5-minute epoxy rather than CA or white glue. I wanted a strong bond that wouldn't harm paint; CA can break loose over time, will fog clear plastic, and can soften paint; white glue won't harm paint but is weaker and takes longer to dry. I had zero light leaks when I was done:


That's great info, thanks! I haven't decided if I'm going to put the gridlines on (imagine trying to see panel lines on a 350th scale airplane), but if I do, what you did is the most accurate representation of the 11 foot model, even if you can't see the grid lines on tv. I like your idea of having two circuits.


----------



## RossW

ronwojnar said:


> I'm looking to install the nacelle vents from the PL sheet. I'm concerned about 2 things:
> 
> 1. Should I simply install them over the pieces included with the model, or scratch-build something from sheet styrene?
> 
> 2. How can I attach the PE to whatever method I use, and keep the adhesive from oozing up through the perforations in the PE?
> 
> PE n00b, so please be gentle with your responses!


The instructions for the PE says to glue them over the plastic nacelle pylon inserts (which are glued in upside down so their grid detail is on the bottom and the smooth side is on the top). I found that this made the PE sit higher than the nacelle pylon so I replaced the kit part for the insert with .040" plastic sheet cut to fit. This allowed the PE to sit **just** below the surface of the pylon, which I believe is what Gary Kerr said matched the 11' studio filming miniature.


----------



## Trekkriffic

RossW said:


> The instructions for the PE says to glue them over the plastic nacelle pylon inserts (which are glued in upside down so their grid detail is on the bottom and the smooth side is on the top). I found that this made the PE sit higher than the nacelle pylon so I replaced the kit part for the insert with .040" plastic sheet cut to fit. This allowed the PE to sit **just** below the surface of the pylon, which I believe is what Gary Kerr said matched the 11' studio filming miniature.


Regarding the other question about how best to attach the PE without the glue oozing thru the openings, you might try brushing a thin coat of CA onto the .040 styrene before pressing the PE down onto it. If the coat is thin enough it shouldn't ooze thru. If any does just take a microbrush dipped in .090 isopropyl alcohol and it will remove any excess in the openings. Don't use too much though or it will remove ALL the glue underneath too.


----------



## RossW

Trekkriffic said:


> Regarding the other question about how best to attach the PE without the glue oozing thru the openings, you might try brushing a thin coat of CA onto the .040 styrene before pressing the PE down onto it. If the coat is thin enough it shouldn't ooze thru. If any does just take a microbrush dipped in .090 isopropyl alcohol and it will remove any excess in the openings. Don't use too much though or it will remove ALL the glue underneath too.


(I forgot to add my 2 cents on this in my previous post)

I've heard other modellers use Canopy Glue. It's kinda like white glue and dries clear - you should be able to put a think coat on the back after painting it separately. Alternatively, others have suggested the Microscale Metal Foil Adhesive - I think Paul of Paragrafix fame was going to test this out but I can't remember if he did.


----------



## John P

Somebody on Starship Modeler just asked if there are any tips on building the TOS E. I said yes and linked him to page 1 here.


----------



## RossW

John P said:


> Somebody on Starship Modeler just asked if there are any tips on building the TOS E. I said yes and linked him to page 1 here.


:thumbsup:


----------



## kdaracal

RossW said:


> (I forgot to add my 2 cents on this in my previous post)
> 
> I've heard other modellers use Canopy Glue. It's kinda like white glue and dries clear - you should be able to put a think coat on the back after painting it separately. Alternatively, others have suggested the Microscale Metal Foil Adhesive - I think Paul of Paragrafix fame was going to test this out but I can't remember if he did.


Paul from Paragraphics said to use canopy glue. I followed his advice and it worked out very well.


----------



## ronwojnar

Thank for all the advice everyone! :thumbsup:


----------



## TonyT

Thanks for the tip to use canopy glue for PE...will be my first go with it on my TOS E!


----------



## kdaracal

TonyT said:


> Thanks for the tip to use canopy glue for PE...will be my first go with it on my TOS E!


I made a bad error, though. I placed the grilles on yellow Tamiya masking tape, just to keep them in place during painting, but allowed them to "hang over" the edges. This caused the paint to settle in and dry with a different finish where they hung off the tape. 

Lesson learned on how to be more careful with fine mesh PE.


----------



## Mark2000

For anyone interested I just did a survey of shots of the E when both nacelle domes are visible. I wanted to see which way they spin to get a definitive answer. I was especially curious after seeing the fans on the animated show turning the same direction. But Filmation is an iffy source at best.

So I used Trek Place's catalog of shots to find specific instances in episodes and was surprised at the results.

Image one has both nacelles spinning counter clockwise. Not hopeful as I don't like this look at all.

Image two and three both nacelles spin inward towards each other.

Image four and five both nacelles spin outward away from each other.

So, a total mix, with same direction happening the least often. Of course at DVD rez its possible I'm seeing them wrong, but I'm 90% sure.


----------



## RossW

They used DC motors to spin the fan blades, so my guess is they switched the +ve and -ve connections from time to time. Speed of rotation and frame rates (they often speeded up or slowed down the shots) may also be a factor. AFAIK, there is not 'definitive' rotation as a result, but I think the 'spinning towards the centre' (i.e. port nacelle spins counter-clockwise, starboard nacelle spins clockwise) is the most prevalent (and to me what looks best).


----------



## Guns Akimbo

I've been thinking of a TOS build before I tackle my 1/350 PL refit.


----------



## Mark2000

I have a few more questions:

Is there a definitive method of attaching the window sheets to the inside hull after it's been painted for light sealing and reflection? I'm planning on cutting up the clear and smokey ones for the patterns I want.

What is the process of putting the primary hull together? Mine, like others', is warped slightly and will need clamping. Should I glue a little and clamp, then glue more and clamp? It seems you could glue her askew if you aren't careful. I would hate an edge that isn't flush.

Lastly, what method, if any, can remove the seam line from the detail parts of the impulse engine? can you just scrape it off?


----------



## Dave621955

I have a pretty basic question for you folks and I would assume it's been talked about somewhere in here so please forgive my ignorance but what color is the ship? I've always wanted one of these kits in 1/350 to display next to my 1/350 CVN-65 and finally saved enough to get one but like the aircraft carrier I'd like to get it somewhat right before displaying it. Thanks much for the help.

Dave


----------



## crowe-t

Dave, The color of the TOS Enterprise has been debated for quite some time.

Below is a link to an in depth article that discusses the color of the TOS E studio model. 

http://culttvman.com/main/what-color-is-the-classic-enterprise-by-paul-m-newitt/

The color is described as a light gray with a hint of green. Tamiya XF-12 JN Grey lightened a bit with white(as described in the article) is a good place to start. I've used it but I feel it's still a bit too green, especially for small scale models. I'm currently working on an AMT 18" kit. I'm using a custom Tamiya mix( 3 parts XF-12 JN Grey, 1 part XF-19 Sky Grey & 4 parts XF-2 Flat White). The Sky Grey cuts down some of the green tint so the color looks neutral in daylight and has a green tint in indoor lighting. More or less white can be used to darken or lighten the mix. This is my take on the color. It may not be 100% correct but I like how it looks.

I hope this helps.

Mike.


----------



## SteveR

crowe-t said:


> The Sky Grey cuts down some of the green tint so the color looks neutral in daylight and has a green tint in indoor lighting.


I like that idea, Mike. It seems to be a good compromise. 

To each his own, of course … grey is hard to nail down, and looks different in different light … probably because any touch of hue stands out.

Thanks for the mix -- I'll make a note of it.


----------



## kdaracal

> _Is there a definitive method of attaching the window sheets to the inside hull after it's been painted for light sealing and reflection? I'm planning on cutting up the clear and smokey ones for the patterns I want?_


I ended up using the clear ones for my final version, now wishing I had used the white ones for the lighted windows. I used steel wool to mist them up. It looks great when lit, but when unlit, the clear windows appear dark. Nevertheless, I did paint my inside surfaces using Tamiya shiny silver. To keep good glue adhesion, I used the discarded window parts (white, in my case) as paint masks. Then I glued in the clear windows, light-blocking the dark windows with black electrical tape like this:


----------



## kdaracal

> _What is the process of putting the primary hull together? Mine, like others', is warped slightly and will need clamping. Should I glue a little and clamp, then glue more and clamp? It seems you could glue her askew if you aren't careful. I would hate an edge that isn't flush._


I used a combination of a thin ribbon of Testors liquid cement all the way around, with a few drops of slower-drying gel Super Glue. Then I used Irwin clamps all around:


----------



## kdaracal

> _Lastly, what method, if any, can remove the seam line from the detail parts of the impulse engine? can you just scrape it off?_


Not sure what you mean, maybe a sanding stick?


----------



## kdaracal

Mark2000 said:


> I have a few more questions:
> 
> Is there a definitive method of attaching the window sheets to the inside hull after it's been painted for light sealing and reflection? I'm planning on cutting up the clear and smokey ones for the patterns I want.
> 
> What is the process of putting the primary hull together? Mine, like others', is warped slightly and will need clamping. Should I glue a little and clamp, then glue more and clamp? It seems you could glue her askew if you aren't careful. I would hate an edge that isn't flush.
> 
> Lastly, what method, if any, can remove the seam line from the detail parts of the impulse engine? can you just scrape it off?


The best move I made, as a novice modeler, was to get the awesome AztekDummy paint masks for the windows. In this way, I was able to glue all sub-hull sections together, mask off the little windows, then paint them with Tamiya gray primer and Tamiya AS-02.

http://www.culttvmanshop.com/Classic-Starship-1350-windows-paint-masks-from-Aztek-Dummy_p_2393.html

Worth every penny and enough to do at least two Enterprises. Sorry to plug a product, but these are killer.


----------



## kdaracal

Mark2000 said:


> I have a few more questions:
> 
> Is there a definitive method of attaching the window sheets to the inside hull after it's been painted for light sealing and reflection? I'm planning on cutting up the clear and smokey ones for the patterns I want.
> 
> What is the process of putting the primary hull together? Mine, like others', is warped slightly and will need clamping. Should I glue a little and clamp, then glue more and clamp? It seems you could glue her askew if you aren't careful. I would hate an edge that isn't flush.
> 
> Lastly, what method, if any, can remove the seam line from the detail parts of the impulse engine? can you just scrape it off?


Just a side note: The smokey windows light up better than you might realize. Be sure to block them from the back if want them to be totally dark!


----------



## kdaracal

I learned so much from this build. I encourage folks to look at as many build-alongs as you can before starting. So much talent here as a resource. My build sucks compared to most, but I'm still so proud! I had great results. I tried my best to chronicle all my "learnings".

Feel free to see all my stolen ideas:

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=390887


----------



## stryker

Have a TOS decal problem guys - used the Microset products. After applying the Sol, I let dry for 24 hrs.
Hit the Hanger Deck with some clear and it turned to a shrinking mess. Made sure I wash and dried the deck before applying the clear.
Any thoughts? Seems I will need a new decal


----------



## RossW

kdaracal said:


> Not sure what you mean, maybe a sanding stick?


I think he means the seam on the left & right side of the impulse engine which has the crosshatch detail.

I tried to scrape the seam with the tip of a #11 X-Acto knife blade in the hope of making it disappear with all the crosshatching, but no luck. I ended up sanding off the raised detail (which I do think is slightly out of scale) and I will endeavour to replicate the crosshatching using a window screen as a paint mask.


----------



## RossW

kdaracal said:


> I ended up using the clear ones for my final version, now wishing I had used the white ones for the lighted windows. I used steel wool to mist them up. It looks great when lit, but when unlit, the clear windows appear dark. Nevertheless, I did paint my inside surfaces using Tamiya shiny silver. To keep good glue adhesion, I used the discarded window parts (white, in my case) as paint masks. Then I glued in the clear windows, light-blocking the dark windows with black electrical tape like this:


Man, I wished I seen this before starting on mine. Using the white or black window pieces as masks for the interior painting is such a good idea! I have a lot of scraping ahead of me now ...:drunk:


----------



## RossW

kdaracal said:


> I used a combination of a thin ribbon of Testors liquid cement all the way around, with a few drops of slower-drying gel Super Glue. Then I used Irwin clamps all around:


I haven't glued up my primary hull yet but I have done some test fitting and I see that there is some 'play' in the glue posts which could mean you end up with a bad seam somewhere. My plan is to use Testors tube glue which hopefully will give me some time to position it before clamping. I have 2 tubes so my wife or son will help with applying to all surfaces so I can do them all as quickly as possible.


----------



## SteveR

RossW said:


> Man, I wished I seen this before starting on mine. Using the white or black window pieces as masks for the interior painting is such a good idea! I have a lot of scraping ahead of me now ...:drunk:


One thing I just realized: although the blackening for light leaks needs to be uniform … the white/silvering inside doesn't. 

In other words, this should work:
1. glue on the windows from the inside, normally
2. _brush_ paint white/silver on the inner hull, just avoiding the windows
3. assemble the hull
4. mask the windows on the outside with Lou's Awesome Masks (as above)
5. spray the outside of the hull black, silver, or primer to light-block
6. spray the outside of the hull your choice of Enterprise-ilke grey.

Haven't tried it, but I think the idea (that the inside reflecting colour doesn't have to be uniform) is solid.


----------



## kdaracal

SteveR said:


> One thing I just realized: although the blackening for light leaks needs to be uniform … the white/silvering inside doesn't.
> 
> In other words, this should work:
> 1. glue on the windows from the inside, normally
> 2. _brush_ paint white/silver on the inner hull, just avoiding the windows
> 3. assemble the hull
> 4. mask the windows on the outside with Lou's Awesome Masks (as above)
> 5. spray the outside of the hull black, silver, or primer to light-block
> 6. spray the outside of the hull your choice of Enterprise-ilke grey.
> 
> Haven't tried it, but I think the idea (that the inside reflecting colour doesn't have to be uniform) is solid.


The window idea worked just OK. It actually masked too much surface area, so I had to go back and hand-paint some areas. I used Super Glue (carefully) to glue a few spots.

I was happy to freely build, then paint due to the paint mask set. I could really nail the problem light leak areas with extra coats before I removed the masks with the point of an Xacto knife. The masks just hang on like magic until you need them gone.


----------



## John P

What I did was
1: Spray the insides with silver to light-block.
2: Spray the insides with flat white as a light-bouncer/diffuser
3: Scrape away gluing areas and glue the windows on.
4: Paint silver, on the back of the window parts, to light block where I scraped away, carefully avoiding the windows themselves.
5: Assemble, mask windows, yadda yadda.


----------



## Trekkriffic

For my build I sprayed the interior with flat black, followed by silver, followed by white. I used 5 minute epoxy to attach the windows so didn't need to scrape any paint away.


----------



## nightspore

Trekkriffic said:


> For my build I sprayed the interior with flat black, followed by silver, followed by white. I used 5 minute epoxy to attach the windows so didn't need to scrape any paint away.


So, epoxy WILL glue to the paint.


----------



## Trekkriffic

nightspore said:


> So, epoxy WILL glue to the paint.


Yes. And unlike Superglue (CA) it won't eat away at the paint. I use Devcon 5-minute epoxy. It's also great for securing fiber optics; it won't dissolve the strands like CA will.


----------



## stryker

Goop or Shoe Goo works also...


----------



## nightspore

Trekkriffic said:


> Yes. And unlike Superglue (CA) it won't eat away at the paint. I use Devcon 5-minute epoxy. It's also great for securing fiber optics; it won't dissolve the strands like CA will.


Thanks Trekkriffic, very useful information!


----------



## spocks beard

I recently bought the big Enterprise model as a gift to myself this christmas along with the Polar Lights lighting kit.

After opening up the box and inspecting the parts included in the kit, I dry fitted the saucer and other hull parts.

Inclosed are a few of those dry fitted pics of the kit before i begin any major assembly work to it sometime in the upcoming new year.

So far, The only parts fit problem encountered is the saucer section.

Either the top or bottom may have some warpage, And the only way i will be able to seal it up properly is by using some tube glue and plenty of clamps, But the clamp method will definitely seal up all edges nice and tight.

I'm not sure if i will have any problems with the hanger deck/Engineering fit problem some of you guys have had with this model, Since this was just a quick dry fit.

I really love the color of the plastic that the kit is molded in.. And hope that i can get as close as i can to that particular gray, With whatever Tamiya spray i eventually will choose to paint it with.

One quick question for the people that lit their models. 
prior to wiring the lights in the secondary hull, Did anyone first glue in parts #'s 53 & 54?

Those are the two nacelle pylon braces that glue to the insides of the secondary hull to help against any eventuall 
Nacelle sag.

I want to get those two pieces glued in and allowed to dry good before applying any light blocking paint or wiring.


Other than the saucer fit issue, This is one big beautiful and accurate kit of my favorite starship! Thank you Polar Lights.:thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------



## kdaracal

> _Did anyone first glue in parts #'s 53 & 54?_


I was careful to "pre fish" the wires with some extra wire after installing those parts, but BEFORE I did the final gluing of the finished secondary hull halves. 

By the way, you may find the nacelle support end mounts too snug to fit inside # 53/54 without first doing some minor sanding on the inside of those parts and/or the male ends of the nacelle pylons. My pylons were both too fat on either end to fit the female nacelle mounts as well as the secondary hull pylon mounts.

I sanded a little at a time until they fit perfectly. You can always sand more, but it's impossible to put plastic back on!


----------



## spocks beard

kdaracal said:


> I was careful to "pre fish" the wires with some extra wire after installing those parts, but BEFORE I did the final gluing of the finished secondary hull halves.
> 
> By the way, you may find the nacelle support end mounts too snug to fit inside # 53/54 without first doing some minor sanding on the inside of those parts and/or the male ends of the nacelle pylons. My pylons were both too fat on either end to fit the female nacelle mounts as well as the secondary hull pylon mounts.
> 
> I sanded a little at a time until they fit perfectly. You can always sand more, but it's impossible to put plastic back on!


Thanks for the info kdaracal.
As far as the fit of the male nacelle pylon to female mounts of the secondary hull being to snug on my kit, I had no problems.(So, Hopefully no sanding required)

Both units fit perfect.
I did dry fit both parts 53 & 54 and secured with a bit of painters tape and both nacelle units still fit nice and snug without any issues.

While i still have some down time from work, I will tape that hanger deck together just to test for any fit problems in the back of the secondary hull section.

Is the hanger deck fit mainly with the installation of the lighting wires or the actual plastic of the hanger deck/secondary hull just not fitting properly?

As far as the window installation goes..
I was considering using bits of painters tape, And masking off small sections of plastic where the window sections meet.. Enough to get good plastic to plastic contact before spraying the white primer.

That should allow no glue contact with the paint, While allowing full glue adhesion while installing the window sections.

Since the plastic is soo thick i was hoping to just coat the insides of the ship with just the white primer ( No silver or black)

And when it comes time to paint the model after wiring and assembly, Spray a couple coats of Tamiya primer followed by the final top coat.

This should work pretty nicely, No?
Also, Here's wishing everyone a Happy & Healthy NEW YEAR!!


----------



## Manatee Dream

I got the refit model and am grappling with whether I want to light it using trekmodelers lighting kit. The problem is that I do not have the space in my one bedroom condo to show it off shelf wise, and need to hang it up on wires. Is it possible or adviseable to extend the wires that come with his kit and hang up the model with wires or chains? I do not know how much the finished lit model weighs and what would happen structurally with it.


----------



## spocks beard

Did anyone use Tamiya Insignia white spray as the final top coat of the Enterprise?
Any pics appreciated..I still haven't decided if i want to go that route or use something a little darker.

I already know that Tamiya doesn't make a spray that is an exact match for the original color, But would like to get as close as possable using their spray.


----------



## stryker

Spocks, are you talking about the TOS or refit Enterprise?
Do you want to use a spray can or airbrush?


----------



## spocks beard

stryker said:


> Spocks, are you talking about the TOS or refit Enterprise?
> Do you want to use a spray can or airbrush?


I was talking about TOS Enterprise, And will be using Tamiya spray from the rattle can.

I'm not sure about Testors version , But i believe Tamiy's Insignia white is actually a VERY light gray..Almost bordering on an off white.

I'm not to sure i want to go that light.
There are still other options.:thumbsup:


----------



## Trekkriffic

spocks beard said:


> I was talking about TOS Enterprise, And will be using Tamiya spray from the rattle can.
> 
> I'm not sure about Testors version , But i believe Tamiy's Insignia white is actually a VERY light gray..Almost bordering on an off white.
> 
> I'm not to sure i want to go that light.
> There are still other options.:thumbsup:


I have a can of Tamiya AS-18 Light Gray lacquer spray which is a very nice light grey. It's almost a dead ringer for ACE Shady Cove without the hint of olive. If it were me I'd use that for my main hull color. For the end caps, nacelle trenches, and impulse engines a darker grey like Tamiya AS-31 Ocean Gray 2 would be a nice choice. For lighter accents like the scalloped area underneath the bussard flux constrictors Tamiya AS-11 Medium Sea Grey would work well as a slightly darker grey than Light Gray. Insignia White is just too light for my taste but that's just my opinion.


----------



## SteveR

Insignia white?

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=292161


----------



## stryker

Testors Flat Light Aircraft Gray Enamel in the can might be a good match overall but sounds like Trekkriffic nailed it.


----------



## spocks beard

Thanks everyone for the suggestions.
I had a can of that AS-20 Tamiya Insignia white, So i tested it out on some scrap plastic.

Sure enough, While it is a VERY VERY light gray..To my eyes it was just too light.

By the time i had read Trekkriffic's suggestions i had gotten a can of Tamiya Light Ghost Gray.

It's actually just a bit darker than the primer i used, And may be what i am looking for the hull color.

Will test this later today and post my findings, And have the other paint suggestions on file if needed.

I believe John P used this paint-(Tamiya-Light Ghost Gray) For his excellent classic Enterprise build, And to me looked like he nailed the particular hull color i am looking for.:thumbsup:

Heck, I remember as a kid building the old AMT kits molded in white plastic thinking the Enterprise filming minuiture actually was white!

And that's how it looked to me while viewing the shows on my old pre-Cable television during the 1970's.:dude:


----------



## Trekkriffic

spocks beard said:


> Thanks everyone for the suggestions.
> I had a can of that AS-20 Tamiya Insignia white, So i tested it out on some scrap plastic.
> 
> Sure enough, While it is a VERY VERY light gray..To my eyes it was just too light.
> 
> By the time i had read Trekkriffic's suggestions i had gotten a can of Tamiya Light Ghost Gray.
> 
> It's actually just a bit darker than the primer i used, And may be what i am looking for the hull color.
> 
> Will test this later today and post my findings, And have the other paint suggestions on file if needed.
> 
> I believe John P used this paint-(Tamiya-Light Ghost Gray) For his excellent classic Enterprise build, And to me looked like he nailed the particular hull color i am looking for.:thumbsup:
> 
> Heck, I remember as a kid building the old AMT kits molded in white plastic thinking the Enterprise filming minuiture actually was white!
> 
> And that's how it looked to me while viewing the shows on my old pre-Cable television during the 1970's.:dude:


Tamiya Light Ghost Gray is a tad darker than Light Gray and more towards the blue end of the spectrum but it's not a bad choice at all for the hull color. I have both cans on my workbench and side by side, at least judging by the dots on the cap, Light Gray leans more towards a greenish tone with Light Ghost Gray appearing more neutral to blue. So if you like an olive tone (like me) go Light Gray, if you prefer something more neutral, and perhaps subtly bluish, go with Light Ghost Gray. I think that's what JP went with and his ship looks pretty awesome.


----------



## spocks beard

Trekkriffic, I have that can of AS-26, And will test it later today..And if it looks too blue in person,Will check out That light gray you suggested

As this is my own personal build, Am in no rush to finish it & Am enjoying working on it a little at a time.

As Tamiya sprays(As great as they are) Have increased in price recently, I just get one can at a time for testing purposes, But eventually, Will have uses for all of them in various kit builds in the future.

A lot of you guys have done jaw dropping work on your TOS Enterprise kit builds, Including John P, Yourself, & Captain Han Just to name a few.

And it looks like you all have used slightly differant hull color choices & painting methods, So if i can get something as close using paint from a spray can..Will be very happy with the results.

Will eventually post some semi finished pics when able:thumbsup:


----------



## brad4321

spocks beard said:


> I recently bought the big Enterprise model as a gift to myself this christmas along with the Polar Lights lighting kit.
> 
> After opening up the box and inspecting the parts included in the kit, I dry fitted the saucer and other hull parts.
> 
> Inclosed are a few of those dry fitted pics of the kit before i begin any major assembly work to it sometime in the upcoming new year.
> 
> So far, The only parts fit problem encountered is the saucer section.
> 
> Either the top or bottom may have some warpage, And the only way i will be able to seal it up properly is by using some tube glue and plenty of clamps, But the clamp method will definitely seal up all edges nice and tight.
> 
> I'm not sure if i will have any problems with the hanger deck/Engineering fit problem some of you guys have had with this model, Since this was just a quick dry fit.
> 
> I really love the color of the plastic that the kit is molded in.. And hope that i can get as close as i can to that particular gray, With whatever Tamiya spray i eventually will choose to paint it with.
> 
> One quick question for the people that lit their models.
> prior to wiring the lights in the secondary hull, Did anyone first glue in parts #'s 53 & 54?
> 
> Those are the two nacelle pylon braces that glue to the insides of the secondary hull to help against any eventuall
> Nacelle sag.
> 
> I want to get those two pieces glued in and allowed to dry good before applying any light blocking paint or wiring.
> 
> 
> Other than the saucer fit issue, This is one big beautiful and accurate kit of my favorite starship! Thank you Polar Lights.:thumbsup::thumbsup:


The only really difficult part of this kit is the saucer. I put this kit away for about 6 months because of it. But I drug it out and got it done 2 days ago. I put 5 min epoxy in each of the holes; taped the top to the bottom with about ten pieces of basic masking tape; then immediately attacked the seams with Tamiya thin cement. Turned out an easy job. BUT the hard part is removing the seam because the top isn't quite as big as the bottom and you're left with a lip pretty much all the way around. So lots of putty work and sanding to do. I think you asked about color. I airbrushed mine with the recommended Tamiya IJN gray. This color is also made in the spray can if that's your thing, but I cannot imagine trying to tackle this kit without an airbrush.


----------



## Cloudminder

How much of a lip is there? Would an application of strip styrene help?


----------



## Trekkriffic

Cloudminder said:


> How much of a lip is there? Would an application of strip styrene help?


I must have gotten lucky because my top and bottom saucers halves aligned pretty well. I just used some PPP along the seam line and sanded, primed, filled, and sanded a little more until the seam was gone. I didn't need to add any strip styrene or worry about building out the upper rim at all.


----------



## spocks beard

brad4321 said:


> The only really difficult part of this kit is the saucer. I put this kit away for about 6 months because of it. But I drug it out and got it done 2 days ago. I put 5 min epoxy in each of the holes; taped the top to the bottom with about ten pieces of basic masking tape; then immediately attacked the seams with Tamiya thin cement. Turned out an easy job. BUT the hard part is removing the seam because the top isn't quite as big as the bottom and you're left with a lip pretty much all the way around. So lots of putty work and sanding to do. I think you asked about color. I airbrushed mine with the recommended Tamiya IJN gray. This color is also made in the spray can if that's your thing, but I cannot imagine trying to tackle this kit without an airbrush.


I still wont be getting around to any where near sealing the saucer up until sometime next week.

But i plan on using a bunch of those Irwin Quick Grip clamps all the way around the saucer after carefully using Testors tube glue.

I dry fitted the clamps all the way around the saucer section and they look like they will hold both halves together nice and tight till the glue dries without any major gaps.(Well that's the plan anyway)

Hopefully the thicker tube glue will be a better choice than the thinner liquid glue i normally use.

As far as painting this model, I'm spraying all of the hull pieces seporitely before assemby and light installation, So shouldn't be as tedious as spray painting the kit as a whole, Let alone having to mask up all of those windows.

After the paint dries i'll install the windows, And begin the lighting installation.

Any seam work will be done after the parts of the kit are sealed and i'll touch up as needed after sanding and primer touch up.

Probably a lot more work involved..But that's fine.:thumbsup:

As far as the saucer peices not joining up to great, I've also read about the nacelle pylons not joining into the secondary hull section, And the fit problem of the two hull halves after the hanger deck was installed .

So one out of three fit problems with this kit isn't too bad i guess.


----------



## brad4321

Fixing the seam around the saucer isn't hard so much as it is hard work. I didn't add any styrene. I just sanded until I hated sanding, then sanded some more. Then several more series of putty and sanding. Many of the lines have to be rescribed, which is only difficult through the putty. 

My pylons would not fit into the secondary hull. That just required ten minutes of sanding. Be careful as I got stuck half in and I didn't think it was ever going to move either direction. 

My nacelle halves didn't line up exactly right. In hindsight I wish I had removed the locater tabs. Fixing the seams there was never ending work. 

I had no problem getting the two halves of the secondary hull together. But mine isn't being lit so less parts in there. 

All kits have their little issues. This kit is still a thousand times easier than the refit. That kit is a beast.


----------



## Mark2000

Ha! Brad. All your problems were mine as well. I thought I was totally screwed when my first pylon went half way in and stopped. I used an exacto to shave it down.


----------



## stryker

Seems we are all experiencing some of the same issues. Placing the Nacelles on the pylons was my Achilles Heel. I ended up with a large gap between the top of the post and the bottom of the Nacelle. The gap was too large for my canopy glue fix so I had to go the putty route. Still not happy with my seam work, area is hard to work / sand. My next go around, I will run magnet wire to power the Bussards and Nacelle lighting. Hopefully reducing the size of the wire will reduce the gap.


----------



## Manatee Dream

Getting ready for the refit. I decided not to light it, as if I were going to light it I would need to do the masking and painting aztec. I bought the guide from trekmodeler and it looks way, way too complicated cutting out the squares. So my question is, what is the best non lit advice you can give? I also plan on just using the aztec decals...I would kind of like to have it look like its windows are lit.


----------



## SteveR

Sorry - you might need to start a new thread. This is for the *TOS* Enterprise, not the Refit.


----------



## Scotty K

WOOHOO!!

On a trip to the LHS to get some paint and materials for the PL Deluxe Batmobile currently sitting on my bench, I was able to score of a bottle of the highly-sought-after *Model Master Canadian Voodoo Gray* today (they actually had 3 bottles!). I couldn't believe my luck!

Looks like my 1/350 E just moved up a few spots in my stash!


----------



## Manatee Dream

SteveR said:


> Sorry - you might need to start a new thread. This is for the *TOS* Enterprise, not the Refit.


Oh come on, really what is the difference :freak: I do kid. Maybe I will start a new one


----------



## SteveR

My wife couldn't see the difference between the TOS ship and the TNG ship. Much eye-rolling ensued … on both sides.


----------



## RossW

Carson Dyle said:


> Although I don’t plan to light my 1/350 E (which will be a mash-up of the Pilot miniatures), I have been experimenting with different types of “window treatments.” Most builders will no doubt be happy with the styrene windows supplied with the kit, but I’ve found an alternative that affords a really clean and seamless look – very much like that found on the Production miniature.
> 
> Ding All is generally used to fix dings in surfboards, but it also works pretty well as a cheap, easy, and relatively quick window-making medium.
> 
> Just pour a little bit into a discarded water bottle cap, add a single drop of hardener, mix gently but thoroughly (to avoid bubbles) and dab it into the widow apertures from the inside. 8 hours later it’s ready to sand and buff-out (obviously you need to apply tape over the outside surface to prevent the resin from seeping through).
> 
> The stuff dries really hard (but not too hard), it can be tinted with food coloring, and, if desired, it can be buffed out to a super clear degree of opacity. I tried a couple different treatments; resin backed by black paint, resin backed by white paint, resin backed by clear amber and green, etc.
> 
> I was working so fast and sloppy I didn't worry about resin bubbles, nor did I pause long enough to clean the bridge part of sanding dust before applying the resin (hence the bits of grit in some of the window corners), but I think you get the idea.
> 
> Final 2 pix show the windows after masking and application of the hull finish (and yes, that’s the same color paint in both photos, a custom mix based on my Master Replicas model).


I just tried this ratio and method on a spare piece of my PL 1:350 TOS E and the problem as always is bubbles. I stirred it with a toothpick in a small cup slowly, but I still got small bubbles. I got bigger ones when i poured it in to the window openings.

Anyone have some tips for getting the bubbles out?


----------



## J_Indy

RossW said:


> I just tried this ratio and method on a spare piece of my PL 1:350 TOS E and the problem as always is bubbles. I stirred it with a toothpick in a small cup slowly, but I still got small bubbles. I got bigger ones when i poured it in to the window openings.
> 
> Anyone have some tips for getting the bubbles out?



Bubbles are the bane of resin casting (as I learned when trying it for the 1st time making a few more little shuttles for the 1/350). The usual suggestions (minus vacuum and pressure, which are not applicable in this case) are:

1) Blow on the resin through a straw. The carbon dioxide in your breath helps to pop the bubbles. (Just "puff" - don't let moisture in your breath get on the resin).
2) Heat gun (obviously not too hot) - the heat causes the bubbles to rise/pop - or at least rise where you can pop them with a pin.

The problem is that a lot of resin casting is done (like cabochons) in a mold that lies flat - in an odd shape like the hull parts, it is even harder to do IMO.

The other thing is to maybe do it in thin layers rather than 1 bubble-creating blob, but that means several passes of resin over the same area - kind of time-consuming.

FYI - one of the things used for windows (though more expensive) is dental acrylic powder/hardener (clear or white-opaque). No bubbles and it has natural light diffusion. Steve Neill used it in his big TOS E.


----------



## RossW

J_Indy said:


> Bubbles are the bane of resin casting (as I learned when trying it for the 1st time making a few more little shuttles for the 1/350). The usual suggestions (minus vacuum and pressure, which are not applicable in this case) are:
> 
> 1) Blow on the resin through a straw. The carbon dioxide in your breath helps to pop the bubbles. (Just "puff" - don't let moisture in your breath get on the resin).
> 2) Heat gun (obviously not too hot) - the heat causes the bubbles to rise/pop - or at least rise where you can pop them with a pin.
> 
> The problem is that a lot of resin casting is done (like cabochons) in a mold that lies flat - in an odd shape like the hull parts, it is even harder to do IMO.
> 
> The other thing is to maybe do it in thin layers rather than 1 bubble-creating blob, but that means several passes of resin over the same area - kind of time-consuming.
> 
> FYI - one of the things used for windows (though more expensive) is dental acrylic powder/hardener (clear or white-opaque). No bubbles and it has natural light diffusion. Steve Neill used it in his big TOS E.


Thanks J_Indy. Do you know if Steve said which brand of dental acrylic he used? Was it from Lang Dental (Ortho Jet Crystal)?

I'll try your de-bubbling suggestions tonight.


----------



## J_Indy

RossW said:


> Thanks J_Indy. Do you know if Steve said which brand of dental acrylic he used? Was it from Lang Dental (Ortho Jet Crystal)?
> 
> I'll try your de-bubbling suggestions tonight.


Sorry, I'm not sure of the specific brand he used. Maybe someone else knows and can say. Or you might ask on his website - he usually seems willing to help out.

BTW - 2 things make resin bubble more than normal - temperature and age.
Approx 70 degrees F is ok I think. The colder the resin is, the more bubbles you will get. Also the older the resin is, the more you get. Resin has a shelf-life of maybe 2 months after you crack the seal. You can still use it for bulk pouring after that, but if you are looking for fine detail work, better buy new.


----------



## J_Indy

FYI - you can see in this vid where Neill uses a heatgun to de-gas some clear epoxy resin for the domes of a big TOS E.






Of course, they are in silicone molds, so he doesn't have to worry about melting them.


----------



## RossW

Thanks J_Indy! I have a heat gun but was afraid to wave that over the plastic kit parts, so I tried my hair dryer instead but that didn't have much effect. The Ding All I have was opened about 6 months ago so it's right at the point where I probably shouldn't use it, but I hate to waste it as I've only been experimenting.

My new approach is to use the clear inserts and use Ding All to seal around them from the outside (filling in the gaps around them as well as any that are recessed). I do like the look of the opaque white inserts when the lights aren't powered up, though, so I'm still torn. I was going to use the opaque white inserts for the upper and lower sensor arrays as well as the 4 rectangles on the upper saucer so it might look odd with a combination of clear & opaque white.


----------



## Trekkriffic

I used the opaque white inserts for all the wisnows on my Big E. Any gaps around the frame I filled in with AVES. The AVES was so close to the hull color I didn't even need to paint it.


----------



## MartyS

Uggg, typed all this up with links to my photos and can't post them, I'll try attachments......

I've been searching for ways to light the 3 round windows on each side of the bottom of the primary hull, not having found anything I like I did this:

Attachment 1

LEDs removed from an extra 12V strip, tied them in with the 3V lights for the impulse engines.

Another thing I did is use thin styrene sheet to cut down the light to the upper skylights, also added some to the inside of the clear windows (Added after the photo below was taken).

Pretty sure this is my final configuration before closing up the primary hull:
Attachment 2

Top side lit:
Attachment 3

Decided to put the PE impulse grills on the outside:

Attachment 4

Spent 2 days trying to paint the bridge, finally had to just say enough:

Attachment 5


That's as far as I've gotten, fairly concerned about working on the seam after closing up the 2 halves, those windows are so darn close to it...


----------



## MartyS

For a stand I'm going to use an old floor lamp, has a pretty heavy base and I'll only have to make a thin sleeve to make the rod from the model kit fit snugly into the threaded tube that used to hold the light.

Picture with main parts held together with scotch tape shortly after unboxing:


----------



## Nova Mike

Good idea, looking forward to your progress :thumbsup:


----------



## JHauser

I had an issue with the flashing circuit on the Primary Hull PCB, it didn't work. There was no visible problems so I assume it was in the IC chip. If it's a 555, it doesn't seem to be set up in a typical LED flashing circuit. Anyway, since it's not correct and instead of trying to fix it, I simply removed it and replaced it with a "Mini LED Dimmer Controller For 5050/3528 Single Color LED Strip". $4.29 shipped.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mini-LED-Di...ing_Parts_and_Accessories&hash=item35ca4a1835

Now I have a large variety of flash rates available and it fits cleanly on the original board mounted with two sided tape. I modify the controller leads and PCB so I could remove it easily if it needed replacing.

Photo descriptions in order:

1) The controller before removing the cover.

2) After removing cover and adding new leads.

3) The original PCB. I removed U2, Z1 and R1.

4) Finished product. The other part mounted is the receiver to turn on the system and to control the speeds of the Bussard motors and nacelle lights by remote (see post #1478). 

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?p=4569834&highlight=remote - post4569834


----------



## JHauser

It seems that there is some discussion on window fit. if anyone is interested, this is what I decided to do. I cut out every window and glued them in reverse, eliminating any gap. Yes it's time consuming, but this is a one-off project for me.


----------



## Trekkriffic

JHauser said:


> It seems that there is some discussion on window fit. if anyone is interested, this is what I decided to do. I cut out every window and glued them in reverse, eliminating any gap. Yes it's time consuming, but this is a one-off project for me.


What a clever idea! A simple and elegant solution.


----------



## Rahn

I like this idea.

I've been struggling with how I want to handle the windows.

I tried canopy glue, clear epoxy and clear dental acrylic.

All had shortcomings. Color, even clarity, hardness, etc.

This just may be the ticket.


----------



## JHauser

"A simple and elegant solution" Thanks for the comment Trekkriffic (great build by the way). It's what more engineers should strive for. And I thought that I was more clever with correcting the Ion Pod flashing rate suggestion. LOL

It is tedious because you need to cut out each window. If you look close, they're slightly tapered. So if you put them in from the outside you can wedge them in tight. Once wedged in, I used Tamiya Extra Thin Cement on the inside and outside to set them. After that, just sand them flush. The Secondary Hull you need to use the inserts from the opposite sides. I found that is's easier to make the round port inserts from using the spars from the molds. I just cut out a section and chucked it into the drill press and used a sharp X-ACTO knife to turn it down. I plan on fully assembling the model (less some trim pieces), mask the windows and paint. I have two set of window masks. One for priming that will be removed when wet sanding, and one for the finish coat


----------



## Trekkriffic

JHauser said:


> "A simple and elegant solution" Thanks for the comment Trekkriffic (great build by the way). It's what more engineers should strive for. And I thought that I was more clever with correcting the Ion Pod flashing rate suggestion. LOL
> 
> It is tedious because you need to cut out each window. If you look close, they're slightly tapered. So if you put them in from the outside you can wedge them in tight. Once wedged in, I used Tamiya Extra Thin Cement on the inside and outside to set them. After that, just sand them flush. The Secondary Hull you need to use the inserts from the opposite sides. I found that is's easier to make the round port inserts from using the spars from the molds. I just cut out a section and chucked it into the drill press and used a sharp X-ACTO knife to turn it down. I plan on fully assembling the model (less some trim pieces), mask the windows and paint. I have two set of window masks. One for priming that will be removed when wet sanding, and one for the finish coat


And Doctor Phil said...

"J, I'm going to tell you something. The work you are doing on these windows borders on insanity. Now...I have a team of professionals standing by ready to help you overcome these anal retentive tendencies. All you have to do is admit you have an addiction to styrene. Seriously... this could be a life changing moment in your life."


DrPhil_Alex-Wong by trekriffic, on Flickr


----------



## SteveR

Trekkriffic said:


> What a clever idea! A simple and elegant solution.


Agreed. :thumbsup:

Without going too far off-TOS-topic, I'd look into this technique for that _other_ big Trek ship.


----------



## RossW

For the windows, I think I've settled on using the clear inserts (cut up into smaller pieces so I can get them as far into the holes as possible) and then covering over the gaps with Ding All clear sandable resin. I've done this on the very small window on the saucer rim between the navigation lights and after sanding flush it looks pretty good. The trick will be to only put as little resin over the window as possible to cover the window make the sanding effort minimal.


----------



## JHauser

Trekkriffic said:


> And Doctor Phil said...
> 
> "J, I'm going to tell you something. The work you are doing on these windows borders on insanity. Now...I have a team of professionals standing by ready to help you overcome these anal retentive tendencies. All you have to do is admit you have an addiction to styrene. Seriously... this could be a life changing moment in your life."
> 
> 
> DrPhil_Alex-Wong by trekriffic, on Flickr


Screw styrene, it's to late. 

I have a compulsion to detail. If you don't believe me, check out this link:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/652191/whatever-happened-to-dcms-steve-eberbach/780
starting at post #784 and ending at post #1002.

It's an addiction, I like to "pat myself on my back for my ingenuity", it's that simple.

Thank you for your concern. LOL


----------



## Trekkriffic

We reach...










I suffer from the same addiction brother.


----------



## RMC

what the hell does "speakers" have to do with model kits ??????????????


----------



## JHauser

RMC said:


> what the hell does "speakers" have to do with model kits ??????????????


If your question was all in caps, I'd be more concerned and give you a detailed response.


----------



## RMC

I dunno,...it looks like SPAM to me !


----------



## JHauser

RMC said:


> I dunno,...it looks like SPAM to me !


Spam, really? I guess that you're serious then. 

If you didn't understand what was going on, a better way of asking would be something like "I don't get it, what does "speakers" have to do with model kits, could you please explain?" Notice how I left out "hell" and the ten extra question marks. While humor may be a difficult concept for some, I thought it was quite clear. At least Trekkriffic understood it. That's what LOL at the end of the post is for, if you're not familiar with the term, you should look it up.

So let me try and make it make sense to you. 

Trekkriffic and I were having fun with each other. He accused me (or was it Dr. Phil) of having anal retentive tendencies and that all I had to do was to admit that I have an addiction to styrene. My response was that my problem went much deeper than that. It wasn't an addiction to styrene, it was with a compulsion to detail. To show proof I provided a link to a more complex project that I did (not involving styrene). That fact that they were speakers is irrelative, and yes I may have been blatantly showing off too, sorry.

I joined this community, like others that I belong to, to discuss topics of interest with like minded people. I try to learn, contribute were I can, and to have some fun if possible. Certainly not to cause trouble. Just look at my other post in this thread.

I hope this clears things up.


----------



## SteveR

Since this is a "tips and tricks" thread, I (for one) am hoping for a higher signal-to-noise ratio here, when compared to regular threads. 

The window insertion is an excellent tip, JH. I tried Smooth-on for my AMT Smoothie, but now realize that I needed to do _all_ the windows in a short (for me) period of time to avoid letting the smooth-on expire: in other words, after testing out the technique, I had to finish the thing in about six months. Given my busy schedule, that was a problem.

However, your insertion technique looks like something I can do, go away from, and come back to, at least on the big TOS E. Thanks!

Carry on ...


----------



## KUROK

SteveR said:


> in a short (for me) period of time to avoid letting the smooth-on expire: in other words, after testing out the technique, I had to finish the thing in about six months.


I also had some resin go bad recently and that is frustrating given the cost of the stuff. Has anyone tried to put nitrogen in the bottles for long term storage?
I'm thinking of trying that. You can get cans at wine stores or even Micro Mark sells it.


----------



## RMC

:dude:


----------



## [email protected]

*Many Thanks to All For Your Help!*

I received the 1/350 TOS kit, Round 2 lighting kit and ParaGrafix photoetch pack for Christmas 2013, and have spent the past 9 weeks building the ship. After reading dozens and dozens of posts by all of you, I was able to complete the kit to my satisfaction, add a few extras and avoid many pitfalls! THANK YOU ALL. I'm far from a master modeler, and this huge kit was a challenge, but FUN!

Special thanks go out to Mr. John Payne -- I loved his version and used many of his tips on color (Tamiya Light Ghost Grey AS-26). I was very pleased with this shade -- a bluish/gray color -- and the Tamiya sprays go on better and smoother than most. I know there's another variant color with a greenish tint was also a good choice for those who lack the skill to custom mix paint. For the rest of the ship I used the recommended colors via an airbrush. I used Tamiya pastels for the light weathering and panel weathering on the nacelle tubes. I admit I avoided the rust ring as a bit too daunting.

Some advice for anyone just getting started:
- Do coat the insides of the saucer and secondary hull parts with primer + silver + white paint coats to block light. I had zero light leak issues.
- I was afraid to carve plastic from the inner rear hull areas to accommodate the lighted hangar bay, so I cheated by removing small slices of roof paneling. That worked and everything fit without massive seams to fill.
- The PG photoetch kit includes thin strips for the nacelle inner caps. These were too hard to affix after annealing etc., so I used the same width of silver adhesive RC car tape, and was very happy with the result. A LOT less agony.
- This kit is massive and wonderful, but has many puzzling fit problems beyond the fit for the nacelle pylons. I also had to carefully remove a significant amount of plastic from the saucer neck to get it to fit (and it still cracked open the secondary hull in the front, requiring filling and new paint). The little clear plastic dome doesn't fit into the smooth round hole at the top of the bridge, the metal tube for the base doesn't fit into the receiving part under the secondary hull -- I could go on. Be sure to test fit ALL parts where possible before assembling -- even the ones you wouldn't think would present an issue!
- Using a low-heat glue gun works great to seal and affix the light circuits. I also used to affix the clear window parts, with I cut into smaller sections and sanded interiors to diffuse light. I also dabbed a bit of thinned blue enamel paint on some of the saucer LEDs to give the edge porthole lights a slightly bluish hue.
- Some folks reported issues with bad circuit boards; thankfully mine worked fine. But I tested the lights during all sub assemblies and through to the end.
- I couldn't locate Canadian VooDoo color for the engine exhausts but I mixed my own using Model Master enamels. I think this color may have been discontinued.
- I also installed a rocker switch to the base to flip on power. If you're an electronics nube like me, you can find "how-to" videos on YouTube.

Thank you all!


----------



## [email protected]

*A few more shots*

A few more shots of my TOS kit, during construction.


----------



## Mark2000

Nice, clean build, simon/angela. Is that glossy red on the base straight out of the can, or is it a separate color and gloss?


----------



## [email protected]

Thanks! The base was a Tamiya gloss red straight out of the can, with a light gloss seal. -- Simon


----------



## John P

Excellent, Simon! She looks great!


----------



## [email protected]

John P said:


> Excellent, Simon! She looks great!


Thanks, John! Anyone who is considering building this beauty should check out John's page on his series production build for inspiration.

I also loved the stories of his father, a WWII P-47 Thunderbolt pilot. Amazing!


----------



## MartyS

Since I'm nearing the end of my build a few thoughts.

For the lighting kit, if you don't know how to solder, learn! It's not that hard a skill, and very useful.

I had one solder short on one of the boards on one of the 3V connectors, a bridge of solder between the pins easily fixed. While testing I found some of the connectors were not soldered in all that well, one even pulled out of the board.

After that I looked more closely at all the solder joints and found quite a few that I'm sure would have developed micro cracks over time. So I re-flowed every connection on each board. One of my jobs at work is fixing electronics and ring cracks around pins are way more common than they should be.

So don't trust those solder joints from the factory to hold up over time, re-flow them all before closing up the model.

Those push on connectors for the strip lights might be OK if you really work at them, they seem to work better if you leave the backing plastic for the glue on, but it's way better to solder the lights. I put dots of solder on each of the round copper openings before cutting the strip, for better heat dissipation while soldering, so the LEDs don't overheat. Once the dots are there it only takes a quick touch of the iron to get a tinned wire to connect.

I used some 3M heavy duty double sided tape for the lights, it's black with red plastic backing and has really strong glue. Pretty easy to find even at Target.

My kit didn't have any warped parts. And only minor sink marks that I only noticed looking closely after painting. The top part of the saucer section was a bit smaller in some areas around the outer seam, how close that seam is to some windows and the extra filling required made those areas a bit more work.

I didn't get the deluxe photo etch parts. Just the basic sheet for the impulse engine and nacelle pylon grills. Considering how much I've spent on this thing I kind of regret not spending the extra $30 or $40 to get the PE for the bridge and shuttle bay. Would have made those look better than I did attempting micro painting. The bridge I won't be looking at all that much because I'll have the white dome on, but the shuttle bay will be looked at more often...

Those are my main thoughts, probably all covered before...


----------



## RossW

If you're planning on using the clear window inserts, be careful when gluing them in place. In order to get some pieces to sit snug against the inside of the hull piece, I used some clothespins as clamps and I got some small cracks in front of windows. There's no way to get rid of these, and they are visible from the outside (even with trying to diffuse the light with steel wool/sandpaper). Ugh.

Also, filling the gaps between the insert and the hull cutout (including the depth discrepancy between the insert and the outer hull surface) with Ding All (as posted by Carson Dyle here) has not been entirely successful. Some filled completely and when sanded look good (although you can make out the thickness of the hull piece through the window, which looks out-of-scale to me) but others had small air bubbles and need to be re-filled. If that doesn't produce a clear window (i.e. no discernible 'line' between the first pour and the second) then I will have to scrape out all the resin and start again. Ultimately, I think I should have gone with the white window inserts and cutting them out individually so they could be inserted flush with the outer hull surface.


----------



## SteveR

On the spare hull, I'm going to try grinding down the inner hull to a more to-scale thickness, then use pour-on to fill the windows from the inside. If that doesn't work, I'll probably cut the white windows separately and attach them from the outside as you (and others) have suggested, Ross.


----------



## J_Indy

I ran across this blog (is this "Shaw" on HobbyTalk, who is building a scale of the E filming model?)

http://the-grey-ghost.com/big-e-posts-from-the-messageboards/

Anyway, about 1/5th down the page he points out that the impulse deck has a change in angle from the rear to where it flares out on either side.

As far as I can tell from pics of the MR E, it has this detail, but examining the PL kit, it does not (just goes at a constant angle from back to front).


You can see more easily how the sides do not run in a straight line front-to-back in this pic:
http://www.modelermagic.com/wordpre...03/kg_star-trek_tos_1701_studio_model-021.jpg

So what would be a good way to add this (if anally-retentive) - the piece has the pattern detail on it (although, it unfortunately also has a mold seam line too).

Sand the detail off and also sand-in the angle correction? How to add back the pattern detail afterward - scribe it? cover it with a pattern material mesh? (where to get it?)


EDIT: Ok - I could be wrong about this.
The PL kit impulse stack has a curvature, which I guess is made to represent the change in slope toward the back.
It seems more pronounced on the MR E (in pics) as an actual demarked transition, rather than a smoothly continuous curve.


----------



## RossW

My plan was to use the clear window inserts and then fill in any gaps in height or around the window with clear resin. I did some tests and they came out looking good, so I went and did the whole ship. What I should have remembered is that clear styrene is more brittle than opaque so when trying to get the insert to sit right down on the inside of the hull some cracked - and the cracks were right in front of the windows, plainly visible.

The clear resin didn't work perfectly either but that was probably my fault in not taking enough time with the application (you have to work it around the window to ensure you're not trapping any air bubbles. Even small ones are apparent) on some of them. The end result is that I'm digging out all the clear windows and replacing them with the white ones:





(for the upper saucer deck piece I actually needed to cut out the original piece and replace it with one from my 2nd kit).

This is going to be very time consuming but I really think the white opaque window inserts look best (especially for the top/bottom sensor arrays and the 4 upper saucer rectangles).


----------



## RossW

And while replacing the clear windows, i noticed that the ones on the rim stick up above the bottom saucer piece just a tad - that might be why some people have had trouble gluing the upper piece down (thinking instead that it was warped):



(not the best photo, I know)


----------



## Trekkriffic

RossW said:


> And while replacing the clear windows, i noticed that the ones on the rim stick up above the bottom saucer piece just a tad - that might be why some people have had trouble gluing the upper piece down (thinking instead that it was warped)


Weird. I didn't have that issue. I used the translucent white windows though.


----------



## MartyS

Trekkriffic said:


> Weird. I didn't have that issue. I used the translucent white windows though.


That might be the difference.

I remember shaving down the tops of the clear windows on mine also, but while painting and dry fitting I was using the black windows and don't remember having to do anything to the edges of those inserts.


----------



## J_Indy

I picked up a trial tube of ice resin. I want to see how clear it cures by casting some trial pieces because if it is really (really) clear I will probably use it in (some of) the windows.


----------



## J_Indy

Ice resin cures to be perfectly clear. Any artifacts on the cast were due to the surface of the silicone mold, but is fine for lighting purposes.

Not sure it would work for windows though because of the shape of the hull. Tape or plastic would have to be secured to the outside and the resin poured from the inside. If the outer surface wasn't perfect it would have to be sanded, and the sanding would make the resin opaque like the white window inserts rather than clear.


----------



## RossW

You could sand with finer and finer grit papers and then use polishing cloths.


----------



## SteveR

RossW said:


> You could sand with finer and finer grit papers and then use polishing cloths.


Then paint over the window with a bit of Future?


----------



## J_Indy

Spock with goatee: Captain Kirk - I shall consider it!


----------



## J_Indy

BTW - for the ultra-ultra a-retentive types...

The graphic for the Shuttle Pad looks to be a wee bit small.

I know they had to do a TARDIS to fit things, but the travel rails for the landing pads on the engines don't line up with the engines.

http://oi60.tinypic.com/douf4k.jpg

The pic has the extra test-shuttle I made slightly skewed to the left, but the center of the engines will align with the outer guide rails on the shuttle tracks of a test-resize I printed.

As you can see, the decal needs to be a bit bigger - though again it is all personal preference.


----------



## jfazar

Hey everyone! So I've already read through 70+ posts and i haven't seen any type of summary or index of all the great tips. Is there a consolidated thread somewhere? There have been so many in this thread that I'm sure I'll forget at least half so I'm thinking of going back through and documenting them if it hasn't been done already. 

Here's a small tip (for any model you want to light): Tape off the edges of the pieces before spraying down your light blocking color(s). I did three coats of black and one white and now I'm sanding off all the overspray which is taking longer than taping it. 

One last question: Did Gary's articles (I think there were 4?) ever get released as one uber article or do I have to buy 4 separate magazines? Thx!!


----------



## Paulbo

Summary / Index: No, there isn't one ... until you compile and post it 

Gary Kerr's Sci Fi and Fantasy Modeller Magazine Articles: No, there is no compendium of them. The 4 issues must be purchased to get all 4 articles.


----------



## Paulbo

Jamie at Polar Lights and I have received several emails asking how to fold the grills for the TOS Enterprise so I put together this video showing how to do it the quick and easy way.


----------



## Dave621955

Hey fellow styrene shaping folks. After re-reading this thread looking for advise on painting the TOS I ordered a set of the window masks from Orbital Drydock. The masks were in stock and there was the standard flat rate three day shipping. The account cleared two weeks ago and still nothing. Since there has been no response to any e-mails to them about delivery should I be concerned or is this normal? I see several posts indicate these masks are a good choice and have been used by many I'm just curious.
Thanks -- Dave


----------



## wjplenge

I've only dealt with Orbital Drydock once, when they closed their eBay store. I ordered the 350 TOS Enterprise Aztec masks. They were very prompt, I had it via Priority Mail in 3 days from ordering it. So in my experience anyway, no it's not normal.


----------



## Dave621955

masks came in a few days ago. I see why you use them, they are nice.


----------



## Trekkriffic

Dave621955 said:


> masks came in a few days ago. I see why you use them, they are nice.


You will be glad you got them. These are the vinyl masks for painting ship's registration and pennants right? My set included the window masks on a yellow adhesive backed sheet similar to Tamiya tape. I think the recommendation is to apply them on a glossy surface to promote good adhesion. When I used them I rubbed them down tight and then brushed a coat of Future along the edges as added insurance against paint bleed.


----------



## J_Indy

Kind of a weird thing I noticed.

I made a throw-away bridge to test ideas with (Re: "ruin" ) and noticed something odd about the decals.

Even though PL gives you the display panel decals that go around the bridge, they do not add the little blinky panels beneath them as part of the decal (which, to my simple mind, would make sense to do...)

So I thought to myself - "Self - maybe there isn't any room for them." :tongue: So I did a low-res mock-up on plain paper and added something into the blinky panel area, then cut the paper and Elmers-glued it to my "ruin-it-and-don't-care" bridge.

And whadda ya know - it fits (because it is scaled perfectly right to have room for it).

Maybe they figured it wouldn't be visible - but then they left out the Turbolift and side panels in the alcove too.

Just strikes me as odd to leave them out of the decal sheet. Oh well...

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=33c9pvr&s=8

(I replaced the pics at Spock's station with one of Talos IV and Murisaki 312 - Probably too small to be seen, but I figured while I was messing with it, what-the-heck... ))


----------



## J_Indy

Walkera Gear Removal Puller Kit - MacGyver!

So I purchased a motor gear puller kit to get the gears off some stepper motors I wanted to try for a Big E

http://www.amazon.com/NEEWER®-Walke...kmr0&keywords=Walkera+Gear+Removal+Puller+Kit

And before I can get the gear off the second motor - the push-pin shaft snaps!

This was using the 1mm pin. Turns out, the shaft/pin is made of aluminum, which was a "WTF were they thinking?" moment.

So...time to MacGyver!! No butt-sitting manager type. Nope. MacGyver!! 

I took a 1mm steel nail and cut off the head and point with a pair of pliers (making sure the remainder was long enough to fill the barrel of the push through screw piece and extend out to push out the gear). Then (fortunately) I had a piece of 3/32" round brass tube (about $3.50 for three 12" tubes), and cut a piece to exactly fill the barrel of the screw piece and slipped the steel nail bit into it. The brass tube is not a perfect fit, but it keeps the steel nail from bending completely out of whack when the pressure is applied by the screw.

When using the Gear Puller, I position the nail with the brass tube flush to the gear, then apply the screw pressure. Works fine. And I can always replace the steel nail if it gets too bent-out-of-shape.

I've seen YouTubes vids of heating the gear, but this works as well as the original Puller Kit, even if it is a bit more inconvenient. The cheap b----s should make those push-pins out of steel!


----------



## J_Indy

Just a thought for consideration...

One of the things I thought would be "nice to have" is the ability to play some sound with the model (after all, even el-cheapo toy 1701's have that )

In the last few weeks I have managed to 
1) Program my Arduino to distinguish button presses and cycle through multiple presses of a button
2) Made it read files from an SD reader
3) Figured out how to convert sound files to the proper format (which is very specific for the library I am using) for playback (not the best sound, but it works)
4) Play a particular sound file from a button press.

(Of course, all of this is in fragments of code and needs to be stitched together and still work )

Most people would probably think to place the speakers into the base of the model, but it may be that a drawback of the engines as echo chambers could be usable as amplifiers instead for the playback sounds if small speakers were placed inside.

The important thing is that the motors (if using motors) in the nacelles must then be almost silent to not detract - and it turns out that stepper motors are (again, I figured out how to control them with my Arduino).

Of course, sound is not necessary for a good model, and it can be there but remain optional through buttons. Still, something to consider - among a seeming endless series of other things... ;D


----------



## RossW

I know I would greatly appreciate more info on how you implemented the stepper motors, including both the hardware, connections to the Arduino and the code.


----------



## J_Indy

RossW said:


> I know I would greatly appreciate more info on how you implemented the stepper motors, including both the hardware, connections to the Arduino and the code.


I have no background in Arduino/electronics/circuits, so Google has been my best friend the last 2 months as I experiment. 

Hardware: 2 Easydriver Stepper motor boards (1 per stepper)
Arduino: 1 digital pin + 1 PWM pin per stepper + common ground with external power for steppers

This is 1 stepper

void setup() {
pinMode(8, OUTPUT);
pinMode(9, OUTPUT);
digitalWrite(8, LOW);
digitalWrite(9, LOW);
}
void loop() {
digitalWrite(9, HIGH);
delay(1);
digitalWrite(9, LOW);
delay(1);
}

I ran this on 1 motor. It is quiet.

Because the motors are running so slowly and simply, 1 Arduino may (may - haven't gotten to it yet. Still working on sound.) be able to drive 2 motors just using 2 more pins. Might have to look at a non-blocking replacement for the delay() using millis() as a substitute.

Personal gripe: this takes longer than it should, because I really don't know what I am doing and have to guess at what I might need, order the parts (slow boat from China ), experiment, discover "Crap! I need another part!", order parts... etc etc... rinse, repeat....

Radio Shack is worthless these days.


----------



## RossW

Is pin 9 the PWM? If so, then pin 8 is being used for the direction (so digitalWrite(8 HIGH) should make the motor spin in the opposite direction).

For the EasyDriver board, what jumpers are you using to set the micro step mode?


----------



## J_Indy

I think the board defaults to microstepping.


----------



## RossW

Could you show a photo of the jumper settings on the EasyDriver board and how it's hooked up to your Arduino?


----------



## J_Indy

RossW said:


> Could you show a photo of the jumper settings on the EasyDriver board and how it's hooked up to your Arduino?




Sir.

You have obviously confused me with someone who knows WTF he's doing.... 

I did not even solder any headers into those holes because:
1) Being new to this, my soldering is all cold-solder joins and look like CRAP!
2) The board already defaults to micro-stepping, and the MS1/MS2 pins are to alter it to full or 1/2 steps (I think) - by pulling them HIGH or LOW.

I want the 1/8 stepping becuz I am basically using the stepper as a slow/quiet substitute for the DC motor. So I want as fine a rotation as I can get so the motor doesn't appear to "cog" from step to step.

In the above code, the pin 9 is turning the rotor by cycling High/Low. The delay(#) is what sets the speed. To turn slower, increase the #. To turn faster, you can use delayMicroseconds(#). My # will be a variable cycled via button press.


----------



## J_Indy

This is the pic in the doc for the stepper wiring.

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2cy1c7m&s=8

When I saw the motor turning and that I could control the direction and speed, I disconnected everything and started to work on the SD reader and sound.

I only have 1 small breadboard (20 or 25 ties), some wires, solder too big to solder headers, and my faithful FireStarter soldering iron!

And if this stuff doesn't work out, that's all I'm ever going to have. 

Right now my SD reader and speaker have that real estate while I figure out how to raise the volume without a lot of distortion.


----------



## J_Indy

I picked up one of those little add-on boards and plugged my EasyDriver in - wanted to test the cheapo-route - can 1 board turn 2 motors?

Yup.

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=aeo8j7&s=8

Frankly, you can't tell squat from this pic, so the doc image on plugging it in is much clearer.

Also, it seems that while I can wire it so one turns cw and the other ccw at the same time, the command to have them change direction doesn't work any more. Can still change the speed tho.

Maybe I hosed it since it isn't meant to be used that way (tho it still works fine for my purposes). I already fried one Arduino trying to be "clever" with the pins.


----------



## J_Indy

*Arduino Nano MacGyver Save!!*

Thought I blew out one of my Nanos because the power LED was dim and it wouldn't accept any code through the USB connector.
Almost tossed it - but kept it as a reminder not to short the pins while being "clever". (This stuff is more complicated than I thought )

However, on a lark, I tried MacGyvering a cable to power it through external power (the VIN pin) - and it still works! 

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=rjf7v8&s=8

Takes code updates fine through the USB.
I don't have a voltimeter, but after messing around with it I figured out the Schottky diode that it needs to get power through the USB is fried.
So - I can just power it thru the VIN and use it, or I can try to replace that SMD Schottky diode to fully repair it. 

But....

While I wait for more parts (AGAIN!), I was thinking about something I haven't seen anyone else bring up yet. 

The Enterprise is part of StarFleet/Earth - which is a member of the United Federation of Planets.

But there is no marking on the ship anywhere to make that association - which is kind of odd.

Soooo...I looked at the big (relatively speaking ) blank space above the back shuttlebay wall and thought "Hmmm....."

Since we never saw what was back in that area in TOS - why not? (low-res paper mock-up to test size in a 'ruin-it-and-don't-care' shuttlebay)

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=1zchmrd&s=8

It would seem to make some sense too, since a dignitary could board the ship through the shuttlebay (like, maybe, Sarek of Vulcan) and he should, of course, see the symbol of the Federation to which his own planet is a signatory.

The only thing is - the "TOS official" UFP symbol is the nasty-looking pennant ("And The Children Shall Lead"). The Star-Cluster/Wreath looks nicer though - so I prefer that one, even though it is only retro-canon (in "Enterprise - Through a Mirror Darkly" when Archer looks himself up in his quarters).

Maybe I will stick some small UFP pennants off on either side of that wall too to salve some of the guilt...


----------



## J_Indy

The Captain's chair separated from the command console of my 'ruin-it-and-don't care' bridge.


Just to see "if".... 

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2yyqnmw&s=8


----------



## J_Indy

An interesting side note of this "what-if" of separating the Captain's chair is:

1) it isn't a solid block on the command module with no parting line. That bothers me visually for some reason....
2) with a piece of wire and a hole drilled into the chair, it can actually appear to swivel or be askew, rather than be locked face-forward, adding some realism. Maybe. I might be the first one nutty enough to have cut the chair off....

I guess anything that can add a bit of accuracy/authenticity can't be all bad... 

EDIT: Now I know why I don't like the look of the Captain's chair molded to the comm module - it was because of that "Enterprise" Mirror episode!

For some reason, they built the bridge, but they never built the swivel into the Captain's chair!

Each time Archer sat in it, it was like it was as solid and immovable as a rock - Fred Flintstone's chair chiseled out of stone! Kept noticing it thru the whole episode.

I don't like the Fred Flintstone Captain's chair...


----------



## J_Indy

Teeny-weeny Captain's chair on a stick... 

http://oi59.tinypic.com/1z146yb.jpg

Just needs a counter-sink hole in the command module and maybe a teeny donut as a standoff to hold it above the chair platform.

Post glued to it helps keep from losing it too - cuz if you drop it, it is gone/goodbye.... 

Now Kirk can turn his chair when Spock or Scotty speak to him and answer back.

And no Fred Flintstone Captain's chair...


----------



## Proper2

Looks like even the camera eye has trouble seeing that small. :tongue:


----------



## J_Indy

I would blame my photography skills, but I haven't got any. 

Tried again.

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=oq9mx0&s=8

Nope - ain't happenin....


----------



## J_Indy

Another idea!! (very dangerous habit )

Another experiment with the "ruin-it-and-don't care-bridge"

I thought - have I ever seen anybody do this thing with the Turbolift doors open, and maybe somebody coming/going in/out?

No - no I don't think I have....wonder what it would look like....hmmmm....

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=vq02ed&s=8

Blue painters tape holding it in place (kinda/sorta) so a bluish hue in there. Bits of crap in there from drilling the hole. Also, forgot to crease the test paper at the corner points first, so it doesn't lie in there right.

Could be done....but....

1) The plastic at the connection point for the elevator and bridge would have to be thinned-out from the inside to make a bit more room for the elevator.
2) The bridge would have to be installed with the offset, because it looks more obvious that the slope of the bridge wall doesn't leave enough room at the top of the elevator when the bridge is face-forward, so Dr. McCoy would be pretty busy treating crewman concussions every time someone walked into the bridge elevator. 

Personally I'm ok with an offset, since it is a viewscreen and not a window.

Still don't know if the look is worth it tho...


----------



## J_Indy

Tried light-blocking a shuttle yesterday just to see how bad it would be.

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=xpzck6&s=8

Needs significant cleanup, which at this scale I'm not sure I could do...

Also I may have tried this using the wrong kind of tape, so this may be an example of try, try again depending on how well it cleans up...


----------



## J_Indy

J_Indy said:


> Tried light-blocking a shuttle yesterday just to see how bad it would be.
> 
> http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=xpzck6&s=8
> 
> Needs significant cleanup, which at this scale I'm not sure I could do...
> 
> Also I may have tried this using the wrong kind of tape, so this may be an example of try, try again depending on how well it cleans up...



EDIT:

Shuttle trivia - miniature vs mock-up.

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=29mt6w3&s=8

Oops - that was supposed to be an Edit....


----------



## J_Indy

More circuit stuff on the slow boat. Gotta try something new...

In the meantime, that dang Captain's Chair is bothering me again. It needed another mod because it is supposed to have that black part that extends past the back of the console armrests.


http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=xdgyag&s=8

And it's still not accurate dangnabbit!! It's still not accurate!!!!!


And now the look of the helm is bothering me......


----------



## OzyMandias

*Primary hull fit (or lack thereof)*

Here's me, late to the party again...

Finally started some preliminary work on my TOS Enterprise this week. When I was checking parts and unbagged the primary hull top and bottom, I found that the two halves sit proud of each other causing a uniform 2.5 mm gap around the edge. 

It appears it may be part of the interior wall causing the problem. Before I go diving in with my dremel, has anybody else found this problem, and if so can you point me to the problem areas to put right? I'd hate to remove something I shouldn't. I'm going to have to remove quite a bit of the wall to get the halves to mate up correctly.


----------



## J_Indy

OzyMandias said:


> Here's me, late to the party again...
> 
> Finally started some preliminary work on my TOS Enterprise this week. When I was checking parts and unbagged the primary hull top and bottom, I found that the two halves sit proud of each other causing a uniform 2.5 mm gap around the edge.
> 
> It appears it may be part of the interior wall causing the problem. Before I go diving in with my dremel, has anybody else found this problem, and if so can you point me to the problem areas to put right? I'd hate to remove something I shouldn't. I'm going to have to remove quite a bit of the wall to get the halves to mate up correctly.



I don't have that problem with mine, but if yours is bad you can request a replacement for the warped parts.

http://www.round2models.com/replacement/

Check the inner bussard domes (that are supposed to attach to motors) because early on the shafts were warped in the kits. Maybe they fixed them later but it's better to check and be sure.


----------



## Trek Ace

I had the problem with two of mine. I didn't grind on the interior, since it appeared that it was the outer edge of the dish that had curled up slightly (probably was still hot when ejected from the mold), and so I clamped the outer edges while gluing the two halves together. Once the cement dried, the saucer looked true along the lines.


----------



## OzyMandias

@ J_Indy Thanks. I thought I'd check in here to see if anyone else had the same problem before I contacted Round2. I'm just testing lights now and haven't got to the bustards yet. I'll make sure I check that the inner domes are plumb. Thanks for the tip. 

Amazing work you are doing on your little bridge. I nearly went blind trying to paint mine! It looks ok no so long as you don't put it under a manifying glass... Hehe

@ Trek Ace I was wondering about that too but clamping the parts together for a dry fit seems to deform the upper hull, and the B/C deck starts to want to pop out of its proper location, which is a perfect fit without the clamps. I'll look at it further and I might contact Round2 as well.

* I tried to do a search through the thread but couldn't narrow the parameters to give me less than about 15 pages of results. I guess in a thread 125 pages long that's not so bad. It's still a lot to read though. I'm currently perusing through and am at page 52. There's a lot to digest...


----------



## MartyS

OzyMandias said:


> clamping the parts together for a dry fit seems to deform the upper hull, and the B/C deck starts to want to pop out of its proper location, which is a perfect fit without the clamps.


Is the top part flat around the edge or curled up? In other words does the top of the saucer look like it should, flat for about 2 inches and then you start to get the bump for the B/C decks?

If the top is not warped, with the B/C decks off you should be able to use an inspection mirror to look around inside that area and see if the top is sitting on that inner ring on the bottom half. It would be weird to have that ring too high. I guess anything can happen when parts are removed from the molds...


----------



## OzyMandias

Yeah Marty, the top looks as it should. Nice and flat until it heads into the centre then a gentle slope up to the B/C deck aperture. If I sit the parts together, the locating pins just connect, and if I feel inside, the wall is butted hard up against the inside of the upper hull all the way round. 
I'Ve shot an email off to Round2, so I'll see what they have to say. I checked my Bussard PCBs this afternoon and one of the flashing LEDs is blown on one board. I'll have to get that replaced too.


----------



## J_Indy

Good thing you are taking an inventory of fit and electronics - better to deal with R2 in one go than keep going back as you find new issues.

And now...the Bridge.... 

The problem with no undercut in the helm is that...there is no undercut...

It needs refinement, but it is getting closer to looking right. And I can still light it. 

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2jd1d82&s=8

Also, if you cut the Fred Flintstone Captain's chair off, the base platform for the chair needs to be shaved aft becuz it is too large - the rectangular platform didn't extend all the way to the back of the chair.

And it's still not accurate, dagnabbit!!!! It's still not accurate!!!


----------



## J_Indy

What's the heck is up with buttons??

For anyone who has added lights-n-stuff to your E, why the heck are buttons so dang expensive??

I finally figured out how to recognize a series of buttons - 10 buttons only sacrificing 2 pins on the Arduino (I know it can be done more elegantly with shift registers, but I don't have that chip and I really didn't want to wait for another slow boat to get one. I did, however, have enough resistors to create a voltage divider so that I can fit 5 buttons per 1 pin.)

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=33jk2ae&s=8

If I assign one button to be a toggle, I can have X times 9 buttons, though I think 2x9 (or 18) is more than enough.

I wrote the code so that I call tell which button on which pin was pressed. Fugly code, but it works fine.

But - then I started to look for buttons that would replace the el-cheapo breadboard ones used to test - and they are freaking EXPENSIVE. For BUTTONS!!

Granted, some are metal and look cool (the Angel-Eye ones are nice), but I'm not thrilled about shelling out $5 per button...

Anybody have a place to buy cheap/good momentary buttons?


----------



## Paulbo

Amazon? Here's just one example of "el cheapo" switches: http://www.amazon.com/Momentary-SPS...d=1423779742&sr=8-9&keywords=momentary+switch


----------



## J_Indy

Paulbo said:


> Amazon? Here's just one example of "el cheapo" switches: http://www.amazon.com/Momentary-SPS...d=1423779742&sr=8-9&keywords=momentary+switch


Thanks - I kind of went that route in the end, though I opted for the white buttons because they are a bit more reminiscent of the buttons on TOS control panels.

I was hoping to find some of the "nicer" ones that light up when pressed, but those are more like $5/per.

Though, I may be able to "dress up" a better look to the plain buttons with some electronics....


----------



## Steve Mavronis

I remember when this kit first came out there was an error in the location of the 3 underside saucer portholes on each side that was later corrected, I think. Can someone remind me from the kit box markings how to tell if it's the revised version or not? I can't find information on this kit revision identification. I'm itching to buy this kit finally and don't feel like making an unnecessary mod unless it can't be avoided.


----------



## Proper2

Steve Mavronis said:


> I remember when this kit first came out there was an error in the location of the 3 underside saucer portholes on each side that was later corrected, I think. Can someone remind me from the kit box markings how to tell if it's the revised version or not? I can't find information on this kit revision identification. I'm itching to buy this kit finally and don't feel like making an unnecessary mod unless it can't be avoided.



I may be wrong, but I don't think that this was something that was fixed as part of any re-issue.


----------



## Steve Mavronis

Thanks I'm mistaken then. It's been a while since I read all the posts about those underside portholes. Not a big deal to correct anyway.


----------



## retheridge

Yeah, I've got one I'm working on with a July 2014 date stamped on the inside of the lower saucer section and the three port holes are still in the wrong place.


----------



## Guimnon

*Build time estimate*

Hello all,
I'm brand new to this site, and finally have time to return to model building after 35 years. I'm doing a short film that will feature the Enterprise. I was a pretty advanced modeller in my day, but I get the feeling that this kit will take me weeks to complete.
Can anyone give me a rough idea of how long you've spent building this kit? That way I can give my crew a decent idea of the filming start date.
Thanks!


----------



## MartyS

Guimnon said:


> Hello all,
> Can anyone give me a rough idea of how long you've spent building this kit?


Are you going to do all the lighting? And the bridge and shuttle bay?

I spent around 300 hours on mine, probably 1/4 of that was spent on the bridge and shuttle bay. And I did extra lighting not in the light kit. Also if you don't remove the grid lines on the saucer section that would save a lot of hours.


----------



## WOI

Would you please be kind enough to post some more pics of your progress
on her?


----------



## WOI

Would you please be kind enough to post some more pics of your progress
on her?


----------



## J_Indy

Just no time to deal with the 'ol E...

Not finding a color for the bridge that I like either, so I keep stripping off test paint. Problem is that colors look darker on small scales, so something I thought would look ok ends up looking funky. Try, try again...

In the meantime I got another idea I haven't seen anywhere else. You saw it here First!!! (which could mean nobody else was dumb enuf yet)

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=119bjbd&s=8

Of course, gonna have to get around to doing it for the shuttlebay lights too.

You know - for accuracy... (dagnabbit!!)


----------



## enterprise_fanatic

I found this at my local Wally World automotive section. For those that want to light the nacelles they give off a blue light with no hot spots.They are 14 in. (35.6.cm)long. They are made of white silicon and very flexable. One thing the mounting instructions say "Do Not Cut LED Strip". 

Now I don't know if is compatible with the R2 lighting kit but the supplied wires should be long enough to go down to the base.


----------



## Trekkriffic

enterprise_fanatic said:


> I found this at my local Wally World automotive section. For those that want to light the nacelles they give off a blue light with no hot spots.They are 14 in. (35.6.cm)long. They are made of white silicon and very flexable. One thing the mounting instructions say "Do Not Cut LED Strip".
> 
> Now I don't know if is compatible with the R2 lighting kit but the supplied wires should be long enough to go down to the base.


Do they work off 12V?


----------



## Havok69

They do - they're made for a car after all...


----------



## J_Indy

For those interested - a comparison of the Sayama motor size with a small 4-wire stepper motor bought off eBay for like $1 each.
The steppers are very quiet, but the Sayama is pretty quiet too - compared to some YouTube vids I have seen/heard of the PL motors. However, the steppers require a driver chip/board (the red board in the background) and a micro-controller to give it step commands (the chip on the small red proto-board), but I have found that one board will drive both these particular steppers with no problem (YMMV) - they just need to be wired so one turns CW and one CCW. Even though the board is only 1/8 micro-step (default) the rotor turns smoothly. The steppers can get a bit hot (to be safe I would insulate them in their position retainer with silicone) and the driver chip can get hot too - but the board for the driver is poured with enough copper to dissipate heat.

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=21e6f4x&s=8

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2i09d8n&s=8

I have an old 22" cutaway kit still in pieces but joined to build whole (with some pieces modified for shape corrections) - but I may bequeath that to a friend who saw it sitting in a box in a table corner and asked "You ever gonna finish that thing?"  The small steppers may be just right for the 22" - the Sayama's would be too big/bulky.


----------



## RossW

So, which do you plan on using for your 1/350 TOS E? I've got the stepper motor driver boards but haven't figured out how to set the current limiting pot.


----------



## J_Indy

RossW said:


> So, which do you plan on using for your 1/350 TOS E? I've got the stepper motor driver boards but haven't figured out how to set the current limiting pot.


It depends. Right now I am waiting for another set of motors to test (another slow boat a-comin' )

I do like the steppers simply because any noise they do make (not much) tends to be a low, bass sound (reminds me of a softly purring kitten) rather than a higher pitched whine (that may be able to be eliminated completely with some buffer like silicone around it). Though I'm not saying the Sayama's whine - they are actually very quiet and could probably be made almost silent by keeping it from direct contact with the plastic housing.

The POT on the EasyDriver board (if that is what you have) I've found to be useless on the steppers. Earlier versions than 4.4 had the silkscreen backwards (Max/Min) but I found that the only thing that happens when i turn it is the chip gets hotter, but it does nothing for the stepper function. So I have left it on Min just to keep the chip as cool as possible.

I've found a delay(3) is about right for cycling the HIGH/LOW pulses to approximate 60 rpm. While the rotation of 1/8 micro-step is smooth at delay(3), I've found going to delay(5) will show the rotor cogging a bit at that slower speed. May or may not matter to me... At least there is enough torque to rotate the spinner with no problem.

An interesting thing I've found is that while the pulses are simple HIGH/LOW just like you would do to blink a LED, trying to transpose the Arduino sketch "Blink without delay" doesn't work with the stepper/driver (that's where you take the differences in time to calc the next pulse so the chip isn't blocked from doing other calcs while doing the delay()). Weird, but I can offload the process to a subordinate chip and call it when I need it, so there's always a work-around.


----------



## MartyS

J_Indy said:


> The POT on the EasyDriver board (if that is what you have) I've found to be useless on the steppers. Earlier versions than 4.4 had the silkscreen backwards (Max/Min) but I found that the only thing that happens when i turn it is the chip gets hotter, but it does nothing for the stepper function. So I have left it on Min just to keep the chip as cool as possible.


For this type of application setting the current limiter to minimum is the way to go. Since there is practically no load on the motor.

Normally you would put the maximum load you plan to move on the stepper and adjust the pot so the motor still runs (doesn't skip any steps).


----------



## J_Indy

One other thing I forgot to mention is that I like the fact these steppers run on 5v (the Sayama's run on 12v) because that means I can run a single 7.5v power line up the nacelle. The controller chip also runs at 5v (I plan to localize the intelligence by placing the chip behind the motor in the nacelle), so backing off the 7.5v to 5v (rather than 12v to 5v) with a linear regulator will not generate a lot of waste heat in the LM7805 that would require a heatsink added into the nacelle (or melt it's plastic). I need the higher 7.5 voltage initially going up because of the dropout voltage required of the driver chip.


----------



## RossW

I've been playing around with stepper motors and these Faulhaber DC motors and I think I've settled on the DC motor approach. While the steppers are certainly quieter they vibrate like crazy at the low RPM needed to simulate the fan blades - somehow I don't think that's a very good idea in a plastic model. The Faulhabers are expensive but incredibly quiet and produce the right maximum RPM with +5V, which makes the wiring easier (I already have +5V/GND lines going up into the nacelles to power the PCB for the LED flasher board). Also, the logic to control the motor speed is simpler with a DC motor, as is doing a power up routine where the motor spins up to the set speed.

I've connected the kit's spinning hemisphere to the motor using a bearing and some clear tubing, which works well, but it's only when I add the hemisphere that I hear any kind of noise; without it, it's perfectly quiet. I'm not sure if that's because of the added torque on the motor with the part on, or it's because my threaded hole in the plastic shaft may not be perfectly centred. For those of you that have actually finished your kit and did some modifications, did you encounter that?



By the way, I did figure out how to set the current limit on my A4988 Stepper Carrier Board with this YouTube tutorial.


----------



## J_Indy

Wow - that's a big motor..... 

Have to agree that DC motors seem to be the easiest way to go in the 1/350 E. Turns out that its cheap plastic gears that are the biggest culprit in making a racket. The DC motors will never be completely silent (steppers are quietest to my ears but display visual cogging at very low speeds). Fortunately I found some metal DC's that seem to do the trick almost perfectly. Maybe with some graphite powder the DC motors can be made even quieter - close to steppers. Also I happen to have a few Darlington chips from an earlier experiment so I don't even have to buy any flyback diodes.


----------



## RossW

They're big but they're much quieter than the Sayama's. More expensive, though. I have some RC lubricating oil to see if that makes any difference, but I think the biggest improvement is to move the motor out of the plastic housing and use a bearing connection.


----------



## J_Indy

RossW said:


> They're big but they're much quieter than the Sayama's. More expensive, though. I have some RC lubricating oil to see if that makes any difference, but I think the biggest improvement is to move the motor out of the plastic housing and use a bearing connection.


Sorry - 1st msg gave you wrong info on the motor (and a real late reply too...)


----------



## RossW

Here's a YT video of the heavy vibration experienced with my stepper motor at low RPM:

https://youtu.be/on9Eg1ENC0Q

At higher RPMs, the vibration disappears but that doesn't help me for this application.


----------



## J_Indy

I definitely get vibration, but because I was testing with very small steppers (their barrel diameter is about the width of my pinkie) it isn't horrible. I think it could be damped-down to negligible with a silicone sleeve that isolates it from the surrounding plastic.

But I think the DC motor is pretty quiet and doesn't cog at < 60rpm (that start-up sequence), so probably will go with that unless something else comes along. Likewise I think the noise from contact with the plastic would be worse than the actual motor noise, and that can probably be cushioned likewise. And even a paper sleeve around the gears would guard against dust - though I don't anticipate too much dust when it's enclosed in the nacelle parts.


----------



## Hunk A Junk

Question for lighting experts familiar with the R2 lighting kit: Is it possible to add a lights to the saucer circuit without screwing up the circuit entirely? I'd like to add an additional micro LED to better light the bridge and I'm wondering if it's possible to just splice it in to one of the kit LEDs or would I need to run it off a completely new and separate circuit?


----------



## RossW

Hunk A Junk said:


> Question for lighting experts familiar with the R2 lighting kit: Is it possible to add a lights to the saucer circuit without screwing up the circuit entirely? I'd like to add an additional micro LED to better light the bridge and I'm wondering if it's possible to just splice it in to one of the kit LEDs or would I need to run it off a completely new and separate circuit?


You could splice it in as long as you use an appropriate current-limiting resistor in series with you micro LED that is sized for 12V. I use this website to calculate the size of the resistor: http://led.linear1.org/1led.wiz. Also, make sure you wire the +ve lead from your micro LED to the +ve lead of one of the lighting strips, and the same for the -ves.


----------



## SteveR

RossW said:


> You could splice it in as long as you use an appropriate current-limiting resistor in series with you micro LED that is sized for 12V. I use this website to calculate the size of the resistor: http://led.linear1.org/1led.wiz. Also, make sure you wire the +ve lead from your micro LED to the +ve lead of one of the lighting strips, and the same for the -ves.


Thanks for the info, Ross. 

Would this hold true for a string of 12 LEDs spliced-in? Just use an online LED calculator for 12V and splice the string in parallel to the existing circuit?

(Sorry, I'm not an electronics guy -- hope I'm using the right terminology.)


----------



## Hunk A Junk

RossW said:


> You could splice it in as long as you use an appropriate current-limiting resistor in series with you micro LED that is sized for 12V. I use this website to calculate the size of the resistor: http://led.linear1.org/1led.wiz. Also, make sure you wire the +ve lead from your micro LED to the +ve lead of one of the lighting strips, and the same for the -ves.


So, for example, I have a "pico" size micro LED rated 6-12V DC with a built-in resistor I got from Evans Designs. http://www.modeltrainsoftware.com/smd-chip-leds.html Would I be able to just splice this in to the end of the LED strip lighting the window lights in the saucer? I'm also thinking about adding one of these pico chip LEDs to better illuminate the shuttle bay. BTW, thanks for the help, Ross!


----------



## Trekkriffic

SteveR said:


> Thanks for the info, Ross.
> 
> Would this hold true for a string of 12 LEDs spliced-in? Just use an online LED calculator for 12V and splice the string in parallel to the existing circuit?
> 
> (Sorry, I'm not an electronics guy -- hope I'm using the right terminology.)


You could splice in 12 in parallel each with its own 470 ohm resistor but you'd be using 20 mA of current for each LED. That's 240 mA total which, with the rest of the LEDs in the ship would put you way over the amperage rating of the 500 mA wall adapter Round2 includes with their lighting kit. A better way to do it would be to attach the 12 LEDs in series in groups of 3 or 4 so each group would only require 20 mA. So you'd solder negative and positive wire off the end of one of the lighting strips and terminate to a single LED with a 470 ohm resistor. You need an LED at the end of each backbone power bus to complete the ciruit. Then you'd solder the wires for each series of LEDs into this circuit between the lighting strip and the single LED. For example, if you wanted 12 LEDs wired in groups of 3 you'd have 4 wires soldered into the negative and 4 wires soldered into the positive wire. Then you'd solder each negative wire to a 150 ohm resistor attached to the cathode (short) leg of the first LED in the group. Then solder the anode (long) leg of the the first LED to the short leg of the second LED and the long leg of the second LED to the short leg of the third LED and the long leg of the third LED to the positive wire in your main circuit. Do this 4 times for 12 total LEDs in series. Total amperage required is 80 mA. The alternative if you want each of the 12 wires separately in parallel off the main bus would be to buy a higher milliamp rated power supply. For my own 1/350 I went with a 1000 mA power supply but eventually switched to a 2000 mA supply that Modeler's Brand Hobby Supply sells on his site. I needed the extra current as I added quite a few additional LEDs, such as the dome over the bridge, the running lights on the saucer rim (a pair of LEDs for each set of running lights top and bottom wired in series), the impulse engines (without removing any light strips from the saucer to do so), and several LEDs added to the shuttle bay.

You'd be wise to do a dry run before installing the additional LEDs into the saucer and shuttle bay. Make sure the port on the circuit board can handle the additional LEDs. This is assuming you are using the Round2 lighting kit of course.


----------



## Trekkriffic

Hunk A Junk said:


> So, for example, I have a "pico" size micro LED rated 6-12V DC with a built-in resistor I got from Evans Designs. http://www.modeltrainsoftware.com/smd-chip-leds.html Would I be able to just splice this in to the end of the LED strip lighting the window lights in the saucer? I'm also thinking about adding one of these pico chip LEDs to better illuminate the shuttle bay. BTW, thanks for the help, Ross!


If the LED has a resistor rated for up to 12V you should be fine splicing it into the end of one of the lighting strips without having to add an additional resistor.


----------



## SteveR

Thanks very much for the advice! 



Trekkriffic said:


> The alternative if you want each of the 12 wires separately in parallel off the main bus would be to buy a higher milliamp rated power supply.


I think I'll do that. Again, thanks, Trekkriffic! :thumbsup:


----------



## Hunk A Junk

Trekkriffic said:


> If the LED has a resistor rated for up to 12V you should be fine splicing it into the end of one of the lighting strips without having to add an additional resistor.


Great. I'll give that a test. Thanks for the advice!


----------



## shadowwolf

Did Polar Lights discontinue the lighting kit for this model.I`ve been looking for one and can`t find it.


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## JGG1701

Ouch!!!

http://www.autoworldstore.com/product_p/mka007.htm
http://freetimehobbies.com/polar-li...enterprise-lighting-kit-accessory-kit-mka007/
-Jim G.G.


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## Fozzie

JGG1701 said:


> Ouch!!!
> 
> http://www.autoworldstore.com/product_p/mka007.htm
> http://freetimehobbies.com/polar-li...enterprise-lighting-kit-accessory-kit-mka007/
> -Jim G.G.


Duh-amn, those got expensive.


----------



## wickball

*new member*

hi guys, just got one as a gift, here to learn.
wick


----------



## Prologic9

Fozzie said:


> Duh-amn, those got expensive.


The lighting kit has been $150 since it came out. It was always expensive.


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## JHauser

For those of you that where looking at the pilot version. A piece of history.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/STAR-TREK-T...dYuOfn7nP7kdxdN7gQWc0%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc


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## Proper2

JHauser said:


> For those of you that where looking at the pilot version. A piece of history.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/STAR-TREK-T...dYuOfn7nP7kdxdN7gQWc0%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc


Very nice piece of Trek history, indeed. I don't get the first pic, though, that looks almost like an entire sphere rather than a hemisphere...


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## RonH

It looks like the TOS lighting kit will be re-released in June, 2016. 


http://www.autoworldstore.com/product_p/mka007.htm


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## Trekkriffic

Wowza! $175.00! I think I paid around $140.00 but that was, what, about 3 years ago? Ouch! 
Cost me more than the model which I got at a pre-order price of $89.99 from CultTVMan. 
Such a deal!


----------



## RonH

I'm putting together my own lighting. I just asked Round2 if I could buy a tree of the amber Xmas tree bulbs and they said no. A pretty rotten trick since those clear parts should have been included with the TOS kit.


----------



## Trekkriffic

RonH said:


> I'm putting together my own lighting. I just asked Round2 if I could buy a tree of the amber Xmas tree bulbs and they said no. A pretty rotten trick since those clear parts should have been included with the TOS kit.


Yeah. That's pretty crappy. They want you to buy the whole lighting kit I guess.


----------



## BARRYZ28

RonH said:


> I'm putting together my own lighting. I just asked Round2 if I could buy a tree of the amber Xmas tree bulbs and they said no. A pretty rotten trick since those clear parts should have been included with the TOS kit.



buy a tree of the amber Xmas tree bulbs?


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## RonH

Yeah for the lights behind the clear dome. But I'm working on another approach.


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## jgoldsack

Can always tint some future in the color you want, and dip the clear parts in the tinted future.


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## Trekkriffic

You could also replace the white LEDs that came with the lighting kit with amber LEDs from Lighthouse LEDs. You would just need to cut off the existing LEDs close to the board and solder the amber LEDs to the remnant of the legs still attached to the circuit board. Doesn't replace the amber plastic "candles" provided with the kit but at least the color would be right.


----------



## modelmaker 2001

RonH, you could even more easily and cheaply use transparent paint to color the amber bulbs inside the nacelles and all around other areas of the ship. It would much faster and less expensive than ordering and buying them from Round 2.


----------



## JHauser

modelmaker 2001 said:


> RonH, you could even more easily and cheaply use transparent paint to color the amber bulbs inside the nacelles and all around other areas of the ship. It would much faster and less expensive than ordering and buying them from Round 2.


I would second that. 

I had both the clear and colored bulbs. While the amber bulbs worked fine, the blue, red and green would not pass enough light through for my liking. I ended up using Tamiya transparents for those colors. I added coats until I had the effect that I wanted.


----------



## Skyking918

JHauser said:


> I would second that.
> 
> I had both the clear and colored bulbs. While the amber bulbs worked fine, the blue, red and green would not pass enough light through for my liking. I ended up using Tamiya transparents for those colors. I added coats until I had the effect that I wanted.


Humbrol also makes transparent red, transparent orange, and transparent green enamels.


----------



## RossW

Anyone know where I can find 4/40 screws longer than 1.25"? I've looked in numerous places but that seems to be the maximum. If I use my own hemispheres for the spinning blade effect as Hauser did then I think I need longer screws to reach the bearing.


----------



## The_Engineer

RossW said:


> Anyone know where I can find 4/40 screws longer than 1.25"? I've looked in numerous places but that seems to be the maximum. If I use my own hemispheres for the spinning blade effect as Hauser did then I think I need longer screws to reach the bearing.


How long do you need? I googled ( 4/40 screws > 1.5" ) and on the first hit I found a pan head phillips stainless steel 4/40 screw 1-1/2" long.


----------



## RossW

2" or 2.25" would be ideal. But I haven't found a place that ships to Canada (BoltDepot.com had what I'm looking for, but they don't ship outside of the U.S.)


----------



## JGG1701

RossW said:


> 2" or 2.25" would be ideal. But I haven't found a place that ships to Canada (BoltDepot.com had what I'm looking for, but they don't ship outside of the U.S.)


Will this be of help?
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/4-40x2-Flat-...052776?hash=item2c9cf7e528:g:qNUAAOSwu4BVjU5s

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Stainless-St...611788?hash=item5d4bbca14c:g:F6wAAOSwiLdV~WED

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Brass-Slotte...264366?hash=item27ebd401ae:g:JwYAAOSwiLdV~WGN

-Jim G.G.


----------



## RossW

Thanks Jim!


----------



## JGG1701

RossW said:


> Thanks Jim!


Very happy to be of help.:thumbsup:
-Jim G.G.


----------



## jgoldsack

JHauser said:


> The first thing that I wanted to do was to de-couple them from the model. To do that I needed to mount the motors separately from bussard housing and use some type of drive connection to isolate them from the "rotating fan". I knew I was looking for an intermediate spindle/bearing set-up. What I finally came up with was a couple of bearings salvaged from some old hard drives that the outer sleeve had a set screw for mounting and could accept a shaft on both sides. The new spindle for the "rotating fan" was threaded screw turned down and the drive shaft on the other side was from 2-56 Threaded Ball Links kit from Great Planes (GPMQ3841). I mounted the bearing assembly in the bussard housing in place of the original motor and connected it to the motor with a coupling of silicone tubing (again left over from my days in RC planes).



I have a question about this setup. I have a fair number of bearings in my collection, and I think I might even have the same ones you used. I get the threaded coupler, it looks like you inserted it in one end, but cut off the threaded rod so it was shorter, and the coupler as well to make it stubby. I am unclear on what you did exactly for the other rod (that goes to the spinner). You said it was a screw turned down, but the only thing I can figure out is you also cut off the head, and used a bolt to hold it in place, with part of it screwed into the bearing....

is this about right on what you did?


----------



## The_Engineer

RossW said:


> 2" or 2.25" would be ideal. But I haven't found a place that ships to Canada (BoltDepot.com had what I'm looking for, but they don't ship outside of the U.S.)


Here's what I found:

2.0" 4/40 screw Phillips:

http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/ststma20in4t.html

2.5" 4/40 screw Phillips:

http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/ststma25in4t.html

If you need 2.25" length, you can get the 2.5" and file it down to the length you need.


----------



## RMC

get a long screw and cut it down !


----------



## RossW

RMC said:


> get a long screw and cut it down !


Cutting it down isn't the problem; I've done that already with some other 1.25" 4/40 screws to test with the kit spinners. It's finding any that are longer than 1.25" in 4/40.

The_Engineer - I will check out those screws. I found some on eBay but the shipping to Canada is quite high. Will also check to see if there's anything local in Toronto.


----------



## RMC

look for r/c linkage parts from DUBRO


----------



## JHauser

RossW said:


> Cutting it down isn't the problem; I've done that already with some other 1.25" 4/40 screws to test with the kit spinners. It's finding any that are longer than 1.25" in 4/40.
> 
> The_Engineer - I will check out those screws. I found some on eBay but the shipping to Canada is quite high. Will also check to see if there's anything local in Toronto.


RossW, check this post:

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showpost.php?p=5705906&postcount=384


----------



## RossW

Replied on the other post.


----------



## BARRYZ28

tony1tech said:


> Thanks to everyone for the kind words and encouragement I actually posted this video to encourage others in their own builds & to think outside the box. this is an excellent model kit, Iv'e been waiting for a kit like this for about 40 years and with all the new technologies available to us modelers I can't see limiting myself to only technologies that existed in the 1960's I really dont mind the aesthetics (my base looks like it's from the 60's or 70's) but as far as functionality the sky's the limit ,also with the bussard effects we are all using leds which are directional and incandescent bulbs are omnidirectional, Ive tried mirrors, I'm using one way mirror tints on rotor caps, & small diamond like stones on multicolor leds, I also apologize for not posting video in a new thread I may do that in the near future as I also have many photos to post if anyone has any question feel free to ask. good evening my fellow modelers peace out!!Tony


2 questions if you don't mind.
The RGB Led's you used in the bussard collectors, did you just replace the flashing Led's with the RGB Led's and nothing else?
Did you just add a capacitor and nothing else to the impulse engines?

Thanks, Barry.


----------



## RMC

can we move on Please....this talk of screws to the nth degree is killing me !.....lol
mine will use magnetic drive.......discuss....lol


----------



## Proper2

RMC said:


> can we move on Please....this talk of screws to the nth degree is killing me !.....lol
> mine will use magnetic drive.......discuss....lol



Yeah, pretty _screwy_.


----------



## Carson Dyle

Forgive me if I've overlooked something, but I've done some research online and from what I can tell there is no such thing as a set of aftermarket window decals (or dry transfers) for those wishing to recreate the 1st Pilot "painted on" look. Nor is there such a thing as a set of pre-cut vinyl masks designed to mask the surrounding hull while the windows are painted on via airbrush. Correct?

I know some folks have found decal work-arounds using other non-Enterprise specific decal sources (Phillip1's excellent build-up being a prime example), but before I explore those options I want to make sure I haven't overlooked something. I know there are masking sets designed to shield the window areas themselves during application of the priming and base coats, but I haven't been able to find anything designed to facilitate the painting of windows.

I suppose I could apply a black base coat, apply the individual window masks that are available, then apply the hull color base coat over the window masks to achieve the same effect... but ideally the windows should be applied OVER the hull.

Thanks in advance for any leads or tips re: effectively achieving the "painted on" look of the 1st Pilot miniature.


----------



## alensatemybuick

I had a question about the bussard lighting, or for those who don't like the "ret-con" use of that term, the "power ball nodules"...

I get some white-ish flashes visible around the edge of the domes on my build, and it appears that what I am seeing is bleed-through of the light back through the grey-ish plastic "stalks" for the blue, green and red lights around the perimeter. Is this a desired effect or would it be more appropriate to apply some paint to the stalks to make them more opaque? I'm thinking the flashes may also tend to wash / drown out the colored flashing lights a bit as well. Been trying to improve the appearance of the lighting effect of my build of late, and using transparent Tamiya clear orange on the inner domes and a set of more lightly frosted outer domes has really made an improvement, but the perimeter flashes look odd, esp. when filmed.

Any and all advise is appreciated (and apologies if this has been covered before). 

*ON EDIT*: here's a video...

View My Video


----------



## Captain Robert April

Captain April said:


> If it was supposed to be lit, it would be lit. Since no extra effort was made to make it light up, especially since there was a light source *RIGHT THERE!* then the only logical conclusion is that it wasn't intended to be lit. Painting over it with weathering only adds to that conclusion.


So, in light of all the new info, what's the verdict on the infamous bow light?

>


----------



## Lou Dalmaso

Carson Dyle said:


> Forgive me if I've overlooked something, but I've done some research online and from what I can tell there is no such thing as a set of aftermarket window decals (or dry transfers) for those wishing to recreate the 1st Pilot "painted on" look. Nor is there such a thing as a set of pre-cut vinyl masks designed to mask the surrounding hull while the windows are painted on via airbrush. Correct?
> 
> I know some folks have found decal work-arounds using other non-Enterprise specific decal sources (Phillip1's excellent build-up being a prime example), but before I explore those options I want to make sure I haven't overlooked something. I know there are masking sets designed to shield the window areas themselves during application of the priming and base coats, but I haven't been able to find anything designed to facilitate the painting of windows.
> 
> I suppose I could apply a black base coat, apply the individual window masks that are available, then apply the hull color base coat over the window masks to achieve the same effect... but ideally the windows should be applied OVER the hull.
> 
> Thanks in advance for any leads or tips re: effectively achieving the "painted on" look of the 1st Pilot miniature.


that's what I would recommend. Paint the area first and then block the specific area with the window masks.


----------



## Gary K

Captain Robert April said:


> So, in light of all the new info, what's the verdict on the infamous bow light?


Same old, same old. A 1" frosted plastic disk covers a hole through thick plywood, and incidental light from the 2 bulbs down below leaked up through the hole. When the lights were off, the bow light appeared dark, but when the lights were on, the light from below more-or-less offset the studio lighting enough to make the bow light appear about as light as (or slightly brighter) than the upper saucer.

Gary


----------



## Captain Robert April

So, it was barely lit.


----------



## Steve H

Captain Robert April said:


> So, it was barely lit.


I think I would say "it was not intentionally lit". 

That's a bugger of an effect to reproduce exactly, I think. Part of why it worked the way it was, was the omnidirectional nature of incandescent bulbs (a truth Gary K mentioned in passing in ref. several areas of lighting). recreating that effect with modern LEDs would probably call for some kind of scrim or partial blocking of the LED, or building a shadow box for the light to bounce around in.


----------



## Proper2

Steve H said:


> I think I would say "it was not intentionally lit".
> 
> That's a bugger of an effect to reproduce exactly, I think. Part of why it worked the way it was, was the omnidirectional nature of incandescent bulbs (a truth Gary K mentioned in passing in ref. several areas of lighting). recreating that effect with modern LEDs would probably call for some kind of scrim or partial blocking of the LED, or building a shadow box for the light to bounce around in.


Exactly. But once again, from the modeler standpoint, the amount that this disc is illuminated will depend on whether you want to be authentic to the model as it was seen on screen or as it was actually built and illuminated. As with any other aspect of the look of the ship these two realities present two very different looks.


----------



## Steve H

Proper2 said:


> Exactly. But once again, from the modeler standpoint, the amount that this disc is illuminated will depend on whether you want to be authentic to the model as it was seen on screen or as it was actually built and illuminated. As with any other aspect of the look of the ship these two realities present two very different looks.


Well, let me toss a little context out here for those that might want to follow one or the other logic point. 

First: Real world reality: That disc, that 'bow light' or whatever, exists (I'm pretty sure on this) as another access point for the incandescent light bulbs in that part of the saucer, same as the 3 'glowing rectangles' spaced around the upper part of the saucer. In the case of the rectangles they shine due to the number of bulbs in that area (aside, that saucer must have gotten really hot! I bet they held off on lighting it up until the last moment before the camera rolled), but the 'bow light', there's fewer bulbs, less light leaking to combat the massive lumens of the floods lighting the model for shooting. *

I would posit if it was intended to be an actual bow light, like an ocean-going vessel, they would have used whatever like they did on the port/starboard navigation lights. So, my belief, that 'light' is not meant to be lit or seen. It may well shouldn't properly exist as a surface detail. 

Now, fantasy world of science fiction modeling and stuff.  Given the faint nature of the light, maybe it can be thought of as some kind of sensor, something covered with a 'weather shield' that's transparent to the range of radiations the sensor reads. The glow is just a side effect of something, the scanning beam maybe, doing its reads. 

Conversely, if one wishes for a bow light I might suggest crafting a 'bulb' matching the P/S nav lights and put it there. It won't match the 11 foot filming miniature but it would be realistic. 

*I'm 50/50 on the glowing rectangles. That's a huge mess of discussion- should the 4th one be lit to match the others, should none of them be lit because, who knows. Clearly if the production didn't WANT them to be lit up they could have just painted the back of the plexi. I assume they felt the lit areas made the hull more interesting, visually.


----------



## alensatemybuick

Regardless of how much light was emitted and whether it could ever be seen onscreen, I would say the intention was that it was an upper bow light. If it were nothing more than an access port on the miniature, and not an intended as a feature of the Enterprise itself, it would not show up in Matt Jefferies plans of the Enterprise in TMOST (as it clearly does). Same logic applies to the saucer "skylights". They all may have been necessitated by adding lit windows to the saucer edges after the fact, but if ithey were really never meant as anything more than access ports, then the plugs should have been completely opaque. My own model does not have the bow light, but that was a personal choice I made *because* it did not show onscreen (whereas the 11 footer was restored to reflect its dual nature as a fictional starship and studio model). 

By the way, if anyone wanted to offer an opinion on my prev. question about the edge flashes on my model's bussards, I'd be grateful.


----------



## Steve H

alensatemybuick said:


> Regardless of how much light was emitted and whether it could ever be seen onscreen, I would say the intention was that it was an upper bow light. If it were nothing more than an access port on the miniature, and not an intended as a feature of the Enterprise itself, it would not show up in Matt Jefferies plans of the Enterprise in TMOST (as it clearly does). Same logic applies to the saucer "skylights". They all may have been necessitated by adding lit windows to the saucer edges after the fact, but if ithey were really never meant as anything more than access ports, then the plugs should have been completely opaque. My own model does not have the bow light, but that was a personal choice I made *because* it did not show onscreen.
> 
> By the way, if anyone wanted to offer an opinion on my prev. question about the edge flashes on my model's bussards, I'd be grateful.


This is the kind of thing that gives people headaches. Just how much credence can we give to those drawings published in Making of Star Trek? That Enterprise has grid lines, visible Phaser turrets (or emitters), and that bow light is as I suggested, a 'bump' exactly like the P/S nav lights. Also the lit rectangles are, oh no, symmetrical. 

Created by Jefferies, doesn't match the 11 foot filming miniature. Does not compute! Coordinate! Coordinate! Error! 

(my eternal answer. Build it the way that makes you happy. Use or discard whatever one wants to. Build YOUR Enterprise.)


----------



## Steve H

alensatemybuick said:


> By the way, if anyone wanted to offer an opinion on my prev. question about the edge flashes on my model's bussards, I'd be grateful.


Well, if you're willing to give a listen, I'll tackle it, put out some ideas.

I'm assuming you've carefully painted the posts that hold the faux Christmas bulbs and that's still not enough. I don't think there's enough thickness to the tube to allow the extra thickness of paint around the clear stem of the faux bulbs. I think the choice is either replace the tubes with brass tubing (a ton of fiddly work) or replace the clear faux bulbs with some fiber optic. I don't recall fiber optic having much bleed compared to the clear styrene plastic part.

another option, and this is WAY beyond my skill level, is use some of these fancy new super micro LEDs and wire them so they are actually sitting on top of the bulb support posts and in effect, replace the bulb parts. 

Now, none of that works if you MUST have fake Christmas tree bulbs inside your bussard collector. The only solution is that idea of completely replacing all the support posts with brass or aluminum tubing. That would prevent all side light leaks.

I hope some of that is worth trying! Good luck!


----------



## alensatemybuick

.....


----------



## alensatemybuick

Here's the result of more light blocking within the dome, accomplished with an additional coat of paint and some aluminum foil to try to mimic the "mirror shard" effect. I also added a couple more coats of clear orange to the inner domes, and used a ring of metal foil within the base of the inner dome to replicate what I think I am seeing in the newly restored 11 footer. It's far from the best effect I've seen, but it's much better than before. The video reverses the direction of the spinners and does not entirely capture the colored light flashes...but it does capture the NOISE quite well.


View My Video

View My Video


----------



## RossW

Looks great!


----------



## alensatemybuick

Thanks. The multiple coats of Tamiya clear orange (which someone had advised I use in another thread) on the domes also gave an appearance when unlit that is closer to those on the newly restored 11 footer.


----------



## RossW

alensatemybuick said:


> Thanks. The multiple coats of Tamiya clear orange (which someone had advised I use in another thread) on the domes also gave an appearance when unlit that is closer to those on the newly restored 11 footer.


Might've been me. I used Tamiya Clear Orange and was really happy with how it looked powered down.


----------



## engineermrscott

*Round 2 parts*

Hi All,
Just getting underway on this great kit. #95
Want to thank Douglas at Round 2 for shipping me some new fan domes to replace the warped ones and new motors.
Contacted him through their web site, (contact us), and used their replacement order page. 
He answered very quickly and was polite.
Great customer service.
Also to all that have contributed to this thread, thanks a lot for the priceless input. Got some great ideas.
Thanks,
John

PS
My LEDs in the PL light kit are all warm white, not cool white/blue, checked them w/ 3 different cameras to be sure.


----------



## alensatemybuick

Here's what I expect to be my final mods to the bussards; switched the inner domes out for a set with fewer coats of orange, and slowed the motors down a bit with resistors, so the camera's video mode picks up their true direction. This seemed to also result in more of the different colored winky-blinkys showing through (best captured with stills). Slowing the motors down also reduced the noise by a sh*t-ton. 

https://vid.me/z4HA

https://vid.me/yiM0


----------



## RossW

Wow! That looks fabulous!


----------



## JGG1701

alensatemybuick-

Could you tell me if this orange is:

https://www.amazon.com/Tamiya-TS-73-Clear-Orange-Lacquer/dp/B001Q12ZSC/ref=cm_wl_huc_item

And is this better than just plain frosting the domes with:

https://www.amazon.com/TAMIYA-TS-80...31824&sr=1-2&keywords=tamiya+flat+spray+paint
Many thanks,
-Jim G.G.


----------



## alensatemybuick

I did use the Tamiya clear orange on the inner domes only; I used Rustoleum "frosted glass" on the outer domes. Pretty much followed a combination of advice found on this site and elsewhere, so really could not say what may result in a better effect. I tried to emulate the result seen in the video below; my own contribution was to use a thin band of aluminum foil around the outside of the plastic LED "towers" to limit light flashes around the base of the domes.


----------



## asalaw

Started mine -- so glad I sprang for the smooth saucer. Back when I filled in my stock saucer top, it took days. Liquitex paste is lovely to work with, but there's just no getting around all that sanding. I puttied in the lower half, then put it aside indefinitely. This time around, it's just lacquer primer and a little sanding, with Mr. Surfacer 1200 for the tiny divots. Very light work! :smile2:


----------



## Trek Ace

You'll still have a _little_ filling to do. As far as the top saucer part, they filled in the grid lines only on the top surface of the saucer, not the edges. Not that I'm complaining. It's great not to have to fill in and sand those whole top and bottom parts. My sore arms are extremely grateful to have to just fill in and sand those little 'tick' marks along the outer edge! It can be accomplished right along with the top and bottom mating seam.


----------



## Captain Robert April

Captain April said:


> Forget transparent orange, that was a myth based on degraded copies of the episodes. Outer dome was frosted, inner dome was clear. Only color was from the lights.


Upon further review, the outer domes _were_ in fact tinted orange along with being frosted. Apologies for adding to the confusion.


----------



## asalaw

Trek Ace said:


> You'll still have a _little_ filling to do. As far as the top saucer part, they filled in the grid lines only on the top surface of the saucer, not the edges. Not that I'm complaining. It's great not to have to fill in and sand those whole top and bottom parts. My sore arms are extremely grateful to have to just fill in and sand those little 'tick' marks along the outer edge! It can be accomplished right along with the top and bottom mating seam.


I had not even noticed that! But that's why God made Mr. Surfacer 500.


----------



## asalaw

The Mr. Surfacer 500 has done a lovely job covering up those gridlines on the edge of the top saucer. Just have to sand it away now. Pix later.

I've done some obsessive paint comparison, because I enjoy it, but also because I lack the patience God gave a six-year-old on candy-coated crack, and I can't just sit and wait for Gary Kerr's guys to post their accurate hobby paint results. So take what I post here with a generous helping of rock salt, because it's probably a couple of layers removed from reality (and aren't we all?). But it does pass the time... :wink2:


*Turboshaft Green*: The Smithsonian article calls out FS 34159 as an _*approximate match*_, and that's directly available in a Testor's Model Master rattle can, #1993, SAC Bomber Green, an enamel. 
[EDIT] -- A FleaBay search also turns up Vallejo Model Air Green 71.329, which is their version of this FS color, Badger 1691 Modelflex Bomber Green, and Lifecolor UA-077, Fieldgray.[/EDIT]

The Testors closely matches my recent memory and photos of the model, which as you know are utterly, papally infallible. 

*Dorsal Section Aqua*: The Smithsonian article calls out FS 35275, again as an approximate match. On a lark, I searched the FS number on FleaBay and came up with Vallejo 70.808, Blue-Green (acrylic), which is also their match to RAL 5018 (for whatever that's worth).​
Final note -- going up to the model to compare colors is not the slam-dunk you'd think it is. The display cabinet is very dark, even in broad daylight, because it's in a very shady spot in the museum. This makes comparing colors on the dorsal and secondary hull _very_ difficult, if not impossible, because they're in deep shadow and 3-4 feet away. And the dorsal blue-green edge is so pale, so lightly washed on, that it's really hard to get a handle on the color. It's kind of greenish-bluish-timey-wimey.

OTOH, the leading edge and sides of the saucer and the starboard nacelle are right behind the glass, so you can see those colors rather well.


----------



## asalaw

Off to NASM (again) to see if it's possible to compare these color chips I've collected to the model. I've been ready to go for the last two days, but there was boring grown-up stuff going on at the mall and on Independence Ave. that made access rather a challenge. Most annoying. 

I'm only really expecting to get a result of some kind with the hull color, since they're the chips Gary mentioned as the least-worst matches (Sherwin Williams), and the one from the Smithsonian article (Benjamin Moore), and since those are the parts of the model I can get closest to with a chip. I've also painted different mixes of Tamiya XF-12 and flat white (XF-2) on them in the hopes of getting lucky. 

One way or the other, though, I'm at least coming away with a production hull color I can live with -- all my hull color parts are primed and sanded, several are being preened, and a few are ready for base coating. So it's time to find a color and get on with it. Never let the perfect be the enemy of the good!


----------



## asalaw

Back. Mickey Rourke showed up right behind me and got wanded (he was copiously blinged). Didn't bother to take a photo. Just wasn't interested, as I was focused on getting my color on. 

After much hemming and hawing, and swinging my LED light over the model and back over my chips, I decided that one of Gary's comparators, SW 7059 Unusual Gray, was a hair closer to the hull color than his other one, SW 6206 Oyster Bay. The Benjamin Moore Heather Gray looked way too green. 

So I'm going to mix my hull color actually a little closer to the Oyster Bay, just to keep my 3-foot model from looking too dark for my taste. One of my mixes of Tamiya JN Gray is pretty much where I want to be, so it looks like after all this, I'm going back to XF-12 plus XF-2. Ima go mix paint now. Yay! :grin2:


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## Trek Ace

Just a suggestion: you may want to mix your main color slightly lighter than you want the final appearance to be - just because when you put layers of clear coat on to seal in decals and such, it can make the final color slightly darker.


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## asalaw

Trek Ace said:


> Just a suggestion: you may want to mix your main color slightly lighter than you want the final appearance to be - just because when you put layers of clear coat on to seal in decals and such, it can make the final color slightly darker.


Thanks!! I'd forgotten all about that -- Mickey Rourke warped my fragile little mind.


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## Steve H

For the record, my thought is that a color named 'Unusual Gray' is pretty darn non-specific. I mean, Red would be an unusual gray, right?


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## asalaw

Hey guys, just passing along a fast tip -- I'm having _GORGEOUS_ results with Rustoleum Automotive primer, decanted and mixed with Mr. Color Leveler/Thinner, running it through my $20 Chinese eBay airbrush (double-action siphon feed, just barely pulling back on the trigger). You *MUST* use a retarder with this stuff, especially if you're spraying large areas from more than a couple of inches away, or it'll dry before it hits the surface and give you a grainy finish (but as always, that's why God makes wet 400 sandpaper), plus it'll start spattering and then clog your gun very quickly. Ask me how I know that. G'ahead. 

I'm using a pretty thin mix (somewhere between 4:3 and 50-50, I dunno, cuz I eyeball it) at low pressure (10-15-ish) up close, and I'm getting beautiful, thin, smooth coverage on my aft intercoolers. 

I've already custom-mixed my own base color for those, so that's up next. Big tip: Forget about Canadian Voodoo Grey. It's a great color for other parts of the model, but it's far too dark for the intercoolers. I used Tamiya XF-2, Flat White, with just a tiny bit of XF-20, Medium Grey, mixed by eye till it looked reasonably close to my reference photos. It's more like a dark eggshell. (Though the CVG would work nicely for the main shaft of the inboard intercoolers, which are just about that color gray.)

I'm going to mix something close to the Voodoo Grey with the Tamiyas (because Testors enamels are an abomination, the spew of Satan, and an offense to God), and use that for things like the hangar deck accents and such.

Word to the wise -- both the Rustoleum and the Leveler/Thinner are LACQUERS, so you *MUST* use a respirator and very good ventillation. Lacquer fumes are deadly. 

The Rustoleum primer is $3.98 a can at Squalmart. Also, decanting is a whole thing unto itself -- there are numerous YouTube videos on it, and you need to watch a few before you jump in. The propellant in spray paints is dissolved into the paint, and that has to fully outgas before you can even disturb the jar you decanted into. Otherwise... well, think Diet Coke and Mentos, only with lacquer paint. :wink2:


----------



## asalaw

Intercooler Robot:
"I just want to hug you! And then nibble on your liver just a little bit."


----------



## asalaw

I think I need to go a little more into the red, but the technique seems to work well and it's very easy. This is Artist's Loft colored pencils from Michael's and a wet cosmetic Q-tip (the pointy ones). I shot this with Tamiya Clear (X-22) after I took the photo. We'll see how this turns out. Also going to play with oil washes. I have an extra sprue of intercoolers, so I have ample room to experiment and screw up (apart from law, my chief field of expertise).


----------



## asalaw

Ready to mix up take 2 of my hull color. Why take 2? None of your business, that's why.

On a completely different and unrelated topic, DO NOT mix Gunze gloss paints with Tamiya flats. Bad things happen. _Bad_ things, man... :|


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## asalaw

Gotta sing the praises of both the Gunze Mr. Finishing Surfacer 1500 and Micro Krystal Klear. I can only describe the surface as creamy-smooth (cut 50-50 with the Leveling Thinner in my airbrush), and the MKK works as advertised.

And now that I'm finally ready to spray hull color on something, I just learned the rear hatches are the wrong size, so I have to putty them in, sand, and re-prime. OY!


----------



## asalaw

Three-day weekend, FINALLY got some work done! Of course, I scompletely screwed up part of it, but it's fixable.

So first, I got sick of trying to fix the round portholes, so I filled 'em and drilled 'em.






















I also filled in the hatches and got them pretty well gone. Then I finally got some hull color on this baby!! It's hard to see the green tone in the photo, but it's there. I was going for very subtle, and I think I succeeded.






















Then I screwed up the OD masks for the top hatch. Bummer -- gonna have to go with the decal there. My attempt to cut my own frisket by hand was... an... epic... fail... Also, the OD mask for the rear hatch appears to be cut wrong. It lacks a bottom side, and I didn't notice till after it was painted on and gloss-coated. Very bummed, as this will be a pain to fix. Failing that, I'll paint over it and use the decal there too. This is what I get for neglecting to review my source photos before painting! ZOIKS! 


But here's where it stands right now, with a coat of Future on it. Next step: fix the rear hatch, apply the top decal, and fill the windows, then weathering. Despite my screw-ups, a good time was had by all, and I'm happy with the finish. :grin2:


----------



## asalaw

Forgot to talk about the hull color -- I started with a jar of Tamiya Flat White (XF-1) and added XF-12 (JN Grey) and slightly less XF-23 (Light Blue) to taste. It was basically a case of dribble in some -12, then some -23, mix, brush onto my Sherwin-Williams paint chips, squint, cuss, repeat. When I find the paint chips again, I'll scan and post (I lose something every time I reorganize my bench. I have to stop doing that.)


----------



## asalaw

Found my paint chips! As you can see, I leaned heavily toward the Oyster Bay, but a wee bit lighter to account for the clear coats. The deflector shroud is just hull color, no Future yet; the B/C deck obviously has several coats of Future; and that's the jar of hull color in the middle. Doesn't look like much, but it goes on very thin, and I can cover the B/C deck with literally just a few drops.










Here's the B/C deck after fixing the rear hatch marking. The sloppy bit at the bottom will be hidden when I weather it.










And here it is after the decal went on and I started refilling the windows with Micro Krystal Klear. I'm not at all happy with the decal, so I'm going to touch it up a bit and then do some weathering on it. However, with Future under it and on top of it, and using Micro Sol and Micro Set (really just different strengths of the same vinegar-based stuff), there are no signs of silvering. Just a little bit of discoloration in one or two spots.

After this, I very much doubt I'll be using anything but the OD masks from here on out, except as backups. I absolutely prefer the results I can get mixing my own colors.


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## Steve H

It's looking good but, I dunno, it's coming across a little dark to my eyes. 

It might just be my mental preferences or something.


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## asalaw

Steve H said:


> It's looking good but, I dunno, it's coming across a little dark to my eyes.
> 
> It might just be my mental preferences or something.


That's probably the Future gloss coat. Clear coats can darken paint colors.

I can tell you though, to a 113.5% medical and legal certainty, that this is not an exact match to the 11-footer.


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## Milton Fox Racing

Steve H said:


> It's looking good but, I dunno, it's coming across a little dark to my eyes.
> 
> It might just be my mental preferences or something.


Turn the light level on your monitor up until it matches what you remember! >


----------



## Steve H

Milton Fox Racing said:


> Turn the light level on your monitor up until it matches what you remember! >


I've gots me a cheap-butt Dell monitor that's 6 years old hooked to a huge Mac tower. I don't think I can tune it enough to do that there thing.


----------



## asalaw

Yay!

Sunday's turning into my sole modeling day, since I'm typically exhausted Saturdays. But I made some progress! I touched up the B/C deck hatch decal, topped off the windows flush with the hull, painted the turbolift, and gave it a final coat of Future prior to weathering. I'm very happy with it! I just need to perfect my masking technique, since I got a teeny bit of bleed-under that I had to touch up/sand off. The turboshaft is probably a bit too dark, since I forgot to compensate for the gloss coat, but I'm leaving it. Progress, not perfection...





























I also got some pre-shading done on the saucer top, and a little sanding. Just a little more work on those annoying little gridline grooves on the edge, and a wee bit more priming and sanding (no biggie, since I'm using lacquers) and it'll be ready for hull color next weekend (I hope).



















The lovely thing about pre-shading is it doesn't have to be neat at all. And this definitely ain't.


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## asalaw

What ho! Got the first hull coat on my saucer last Sunday -- but I ran out of paint before I was done!!! YIKES!!! This is going to take WAY more paint than I thought, not to mention I didn't take notes when I mixed it!! EEK! 

So I procrastinated all week in trying to match it, partly because I fear failure, and partly because, well, I fear failure. 

Also I've been watching a lot of 1966 Batman on iTunes. 

But today I stayed home due to an oversupply of black ice on the roads, I finally dove in, and whaddaya know, I matched it in 20 minutes. And this time I took careful notes! So for anyone who's curious, and in case I lose the piece of cardboard I wrote it on, here's the formula:

*REVISED*

*20 parts Tamiya XF-2 (Flat White)
22 parts Tamiya XF-12 (JN Grey)
1 part Tamiya XF-23 (Light Blue)*

As always, YMMV.*


*Void in Utah. Void in all states except Utah. Past performance is no guarantee of past performance. Contains adjectives known to the State of California to cause cancer. Not void in Utah, except where void.


----------



## Steve H

I think the pre-shading is going to make all the difference, and end up looking more like the 11 foot miniature than other methods. I can't wait to see how it works out!

I was going to make a joke about the interesting choice to carve a waffle pattern into your saucer (your work lazy susan) but then I didn't. then I just did. huh.


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## asalaw

asalaw said:


> *10 parts Tamiya XF-2 (Flat White)
> 7 parts Tamiya XF-12 (JN Grey)
> 3 parts Tamiya XF-23 (Light Blue)*
> Stand by for a slight tweak to this -- it dried a little too dark and green to match what I've already got.


SEE REVISIONS POST 1983

*NOTE:* this is _way_ lighter and greener than the hull color matched to Gary's chips with Model Master enamels -- see here:

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/6192729-post1886.html


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## asalaw

Revised formula above for my version of the hull color. There was _way_ too much blue and not enough green, and I had to increase my resolution before I could finally really match it, hence the higher numbers. Now it's dried and it's nearly invisible against the old paint. Yay! (Now I can give myself permission to match those MM colors with Tamiya!)


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## bholcomb007

It is awesome I found this forum! I just got my 1/350 TOS E and am waiting on the lights...I am surely going to wait on the paint guide because the one in the box, although nice looking, just didn't feel quite right! 
Again thanks for the research and hard work to finding the correct mixes of paint to get the correct colors!
I wait with...antici...pation!!!!


Ben


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## asalaw

bholcomb007 said:


> It is awesome I found this forum! I just got my 1/350 TOS E and am waiting on the lights...I am surely going to wait on the paint guide because the one in the box, although nice looking, just didn't feel quite right!
> Again thanks for the research and hard work to finding the correct mixes of paint to get the correct colors!
> I wait with...antici...pation!!!!
> 
> 
> Ben


Best of luck -- you'll never be the same again, and that's a good thing! :smile2:


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## bholcomb007

asalaw said:


> Best of luck -- you'll never be the same again, and that's a good thing! :smile2:


Oh I know it!!!
This is the BIGGEST model I have ever attempted and the first with lighting. I have been following TrekWorks on YouTube and doing my homeowrk. Just got a new house and an setting up my modeling station in the new shop. I am totally stoked!!! Got to get my painting station setup for the airbrush and get my colors ordered, hence the hard search for the right colors because I want this model to be SPOT ON!!! I grew up on Star Trek TOS! And next I will be tackling the 1/350 Refit....exciting times ahead!

Ben


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## Milton Fox Racing

Welcome to the boards Ben! Been over to Ike's house a few time, but it has been awhile. Keep us updated on the build.


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## asalaw

Finally!!! B/C deck weathered and matt coated. Testors Dullcote was drying a bit satiny for some odd reason, but after 4 coats of that (?!) I hit it with the Testors Acryl flat coat and it went flat as a pancake. I also have Liquitex Matt Varnish as a reserve, but things didn't get that far.

The space dirt is an oil wash gone over with dry brushes. Cheap-ass Michael's stuff mixed in with some Windsor & Newton. The cheap stuff is much oilier, but you cure that by putting out your paint dabs on a piece of scrap cardboard. Thinned and cleaned up with odorless turpenoid.

Hit the top saucer with a coat of the new hull mix. Looking very good, but still needs some sanding and recoating in places. 

I stuck the Oyster Bay chip in there to show how the camera seems to be sucking the green right out of my paint. Trust me, this puppy's _green_.

I'm happy as a clam (or an Aldebaran shellmouth), but I'm pooped. Gonna curl up on the couch with some delivery and Rogue One. Ahhh.... :nerd:


----------



## bholcomb007

I sure will...been organizing the build table and had to start fitting the nacelles and the secondary hull...and start a bit of sanding...I can't wait to get my new paint in to start the priming...
Will take some time but it is going to be worth it all in the end!
Oh! The lights are coming in today!
Just have to get all of the ParaGraphic extras and I will be good...except for the paint mixes!

Ben


----------



## bholcomb007

Question...I have noticed on the TrekWorks the bridge was a clear part...mine is molded in the grey...is the grey bridge a new molding for the 50th anneversery edition?
No biggy because the lighting will show through I was just wondering...

Ben


----------



## John F

The clear bridge and other clear parts are included in the pl light kit


----------



## bholcomb007

OMG!!!
Just got the lighting kit and, YES, you are soooo right...the clear bridge was in there...


----------



## Steve H

THAT looks fantastic! If you can match that on the saucer I think you've got a winner!

And I think I can see how the pre-shading is really helping to define the curves on the saucer. 

I'll put this out here, I'm sure some will disagree.

Think like Jefferies. His style was to use paint like stage make-up. Shadows, highlights, define shapes. It was rather 'broad' on the 11 foot miniature because of the intensity of studio lighting and the knowledge that the image would be 'stepped on' a bit (sometimes 3 or 4 generations down thru the optical printer!) so you should be more subtle to the naked eye. I think what you've done with the B/C deck is the right direction. 

Looking goooood


----------



## asalaw

Steve H said:


> THAT looks fantastic! If you can match that on the saucer I think you've got a winner!
> 
> And I think I can see how the pre-shading is really helping to define the curves on the saucer.
> 
> I'll put this out here, I'm sure some will disagree.
> 
> Think like Jefferies. His style was to use paint like stage make-up. Shadows, highlights, define shapes. It was rather 'broad' on the 11 foot miniature because of the intensity of studio lighting and the knowledge that the image would be 'stepped on' a bit (sometimes 3 or 4 generations down thru the optical printer!) so you should be more subtle to the naked eye. I think what you've done with the B/C deck is the right direction.
> 
> Looking goooood


Thanks! Yup, the makeup principle seems to be what preshading is aiming at. And there's also the issue of size -- going full-dirty like the 11 footer would look really garish at 1/4 scale (ish). The great thing about oil washes over gloss coat is you can wipe it off if you go too far or mess up. What I did was put it on thin in small areas, then drybrush it to blend and remove excess paint. Worked pretty well once I got the hang ot it. But sure, there was some "oops -- gotta wipe this off" going on.

The really hard part was deciding when to stop!


----------



## Trek Ace

If your camera is set to ATW (auto-tracing white balance), then it will try to automatically color-correct the green saucer to gray, since it is filling the majority of the frame. That's probably what is going on.

The first photos show the teardrop module as gray-green.

By the way, it is nice to see that someone else bothered to actually paint the elevator the correct color! Most of the builds I see the elevator is just the hull color.


----------



## asalaw

Trek Ace said:


> If your camera is set to ATW (auto-tracing white balance), then it will try to automatically color-correct the green saucer to gray, since it is filling the majority of the frame. That's probably what is going on.
> 
> The first photos show the teardrop module as gray-green.
> 
> By the way, it is nice to see that someone else bothered to actually paint the elevator the correct color! Most of the builds I see the elevator is just the hull color.


Thanks! It was too dark at first because I matched the FS color (Testors SAC Bomber Green in the rattle can) but didn't lighten it enough, but yesterday I gave it a thin white oil wash while I was weathering, and it looks much better. 

The camera's my iPhone 7+, so I'm sure it's doing all kinds of undesirable processing and averaging. When it's done, I'll take a series of beauty shots in RAW format with my DSLR and do the post myself in Lightroom.


----------



## publiusr

Oyster Bay--I'll have to remember that.


----------



## Milton Fox Racing

asalaw said:


> Thanks! It was too dark at first because I matched the FS color (Testors SAC Bomber Green in the rattle can) but didn't lighten it enough, but yesterday I gave it a thin white oil wash while I was weathering, and it looks much better.
> 
> The camera's my iPhone 7+, so I'm sure it's doing all kinds of undesirable processing and averaging. When it's done, I'll take a series of beauty shots in RAW format with my DSLR and do the post myself in Lightroom.


That is a good plan, but remember everyone else's monitors are going to display it incorrectly anyway. :cheers2:


----------



## asalaw

publiusr said:


> Oyster Bay--I'll have to remember that.


Gary actually called out two Sherman-Williams colors, SW 7059 Unusual Gray and SW 6206 Oyster Bay, as "least terrible," I think he said. He said Unusual Gray was close when seen in daylight, Oyster Bay was close when seen in incandescent light, and suggested maybe a 50-50 mix of the two.

The Smithsonian mentions Benjamin Moore Heather Gray, but not as an exact match either.

I just sorta went between the two SW colors, but cheated more toward Oyster Bay because I didn't feel that Unusual Gray was light or green enough.

When I compared the SW colors to the actual model (at the museum, and I hasten to add where it's behind glass and dimly lit), I thought it was much closer to Unusual Gray. But I just don't want my model that dark. IMO, when it comes to your own build, color choice is highly subjective. You can match the exact hull colors that Gary and Clubtepes came up with in Testors Model Master Enamels, or you can go your own way.

Here's the exact paint mix I went with.


----------



## asalaw

Milton Fox Racing said:


> That is a good plan, but remember everyone else's monitors are going to display it incorrectly anyway. :cheers2:


You're preaching to the choir. Back in the day, when TV was still 525 lines of vertical resolution, I used to work on a lot of commercials. The product packaging, without exception, was always color-corrected. Sometimes I couldn't tell it apart from regular packaging, but most of the time the differences were noticeable. We'd shoot 35mm and light those product shots like they were Ingrid Bergman. And I'd hear (or say) the same thing on every single shoot: "Why are we doing this? It's gonna look different on every TV anyway."


----------



## asalaw

bholcomb007 said:


> OMG!!!
> Just got the lighting kit and, YES, you are soooo right...the clear bridge was in there...


Not to pick nits, but I think your regulator/moisture trap needs to be vertical so the water can collect at the bottom. Unless you live in a very dry environment, like Arizona or an English comedy, in which case you can use it as a shot glass.


----------



## John P

asalaw said:


> Not to pick nits, but I think your regulator/moisture trap needs to be vertical so the water can collect at the bottom. Unless you live in a very dry environment, like Arizona or an English comedy, in which case you can use it as a shot glass.


This am correct!


----------



## Skyking918

asalaw said:


> Not to pick nits, but I think your regulator/moisture trap needs to be vertical so the water can collect at the bottom. Unless you live in a very dry environment, like Arizona or an English comedy, in which case you can use it as a shot glass.


If he's in Denison, TX (not far from me), it can be VERY humid. Or not. :laugh:


----------



## asalaw

John P said:


> This am correct!


I are!


----------



## Steve H

asalaw said:


> Not to pick nits, but I think your regulator/moisture trap needs to be vertical so the water can collect at the bottom. Unless you live in a very dry environment, like Arizona or an English comedy, in which case you can use it as a shot glass.


Perspective can be tricky but it looks like the water trap may be a hair taller then the pump. I think if he adjusted it so it's down as far as he can make it, it'll do the job. Better than how it seems now at least.


----------



## asalaw

Should we move this discussion to the 1/350 build thread? Now that mach7 finished his F104, my E is lonely.


----------



## bholcomb007

Skyking918 said:


> If he's in Denison, TX (not far from me), it can be VERY humid. Or not. :laugh:


Yup, not far at all...and yes it can vary hour to hour!

lol

But if the summer is anything like normal it should not be a problem!!!

Note taken though...I think it is cranked as far as I can get it, will see if I can adjust it to a bit better orientation!

Thanks gentlemen.

Ben


----------



## Milton Fox Racing

asalaw said:


> Should we move this discussion to the 1/350 build thread? Now that mach7 finished his F104, my E is lonely.


Sounds like a plan to me...do you understand what we are talking about doing bholcomb007?

Another option would be to create a new thread for your build. Post up a title for it - if you would rather do that - and I can move these posts to that as a new thread with you as the OP.

LMK-MFR


----------



## KUROK

asalaw said:


> Should we move this discussion to the 1/350 build thread? Now that mach7 finished his F104, my E is lonely.


Did ya finish that JLong MM Phaser yet?


----------



## asalaw

KUROK said:


> Did ya finish that JLong MM Phaser yet?


Not even close. Too many expenses to pay for Techshop lately. :frown2:


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## bholcomb007

Yes it does Sir...What is the forum thread we will be going to?

Ben


----------



## Milton Fox Racing

I choose the sticky build thread on the 1/350 TOS...your posts should be in chronological order with any posts already there in sequence to those. 

Thanks for understanding the move. :thumbsup:

(If you would rather have/start your own build thread - just give me a title to go by.)


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## bholcomb007

Milton Fox Racing said:


> Sounds like a plan to me...do you understand what we are talking about doing bholcomb007?
> 
> Another option would be to create a new thread for your build. Post up a title for it - if you would rather do that - and I can move these posts to that as a new thread with you as the OP.
> 
> LMK-MFR


Nope this thread should be quite fine!

Waiting on my Primer to come in today so I can get started with the priming on the saucer, dorsal, nacelles and secondary hull!!!!

And I have the paint to mix for the hull color that Gary posted for with the Model masters Mixes....oh and any word from him on the other color mixes?

Ben


----------



## asalaw

bholcomb007 said:


> Nope this thread should be quite fine!
> 
> Waiting on my Primer to come in today so I can get started with the priming on the saucer, dorsal, nacelles and secondary hull!!!!
> 
> And I have the paint to mix for the hull color that Gary posted for with the Model masters Mixes....oh and any word from him on the other color mixes?
> 
> Ben


Light blocking tip: A coat of rattle-can automotive primer inside and out works very well for light blocking. Then flat white over the primer on the inside will diffuse the light very nicely. White is brighter than silver, scatters the light better, and doesn't alter the color temperature of your LEDs (which are warm like the lights on the original model).


----------



## bholcomb007

asalaw said:


> Light blocking tip: A coat of rattle-can automotive primer inside and out works very well for light blocking. Then flat white over the primer on the inside will diffuse the light very nicely. White is brighter than silver, scatters the light better, and doesn't alter the color temperature of your LEDs (which are warm like the lights on the original model).


Dang I missed your post before I started!
I got Model masters gray primer and started with 2 coats on the outside and inside. Then I have put 2 coats of black on the inside and will be coating it with flat white for the reflective properties....almost there on the light blocking.

Thanks for the tip I will keep it in mind for the future because this will not be the last one I do. Planning on the refit next in line!

Ben


----------



## asalaw

bholcomb007 said:


> Dang I missed your post before I started!
> I got Model masters gray primer and started with 2 coats on the outside and inside. Then I have put 2 coats of black on the inside and will be coating it with flat white for the reflective properties....almost there on the light blocking.
> 
> Thanks for the tip I will keep it in mind for the future because this will not be the last one I do. Planning on the refit next in line!
> 
> Ben


Well, it's not the end of the world. Just hold your parts up to a window or light bulb, and see if you have any light leaks. If you do, touch up those areas on the inside. 

Don't feel bad -- my first attempt was using aluminum tape, till I remembered the Steve Neill tip about using primer. That was on this very build I'm doing now! The tape works fine, but it's not worth all the work.


----------



## bholcomb007

Well, here is a few photos on the steps I have made over the weekend. I have primed the hull pieces and have got my flat black sprayed on the inside for light blocking...also, because I can't help my self, I have mixed up a bottle of the hull color with the ratios that Gary gave for the production model...I have taken a photo of the clear bottle with the mix and I went ahead and sprayed one coat on the struts to see the effect...enjoy, I know I am...by the way that is just one coat on the struts and I have not sanded them yet for the next coat...Just wanted to see the color effect on the plastic...under the right light it has the gray color...I figure in daylight you can see the green tint much more...


----------



## bholcomb007

Has anyone heard from Gary about the rest of the color mixes?


----------



## asalaw

Nope.


----------



## bholcomb007

Ok, finally got to go out into the shop and lay some more paint down!
Here is the struts with a fresh second coat of the color...A bit more greenish now...but again, in the right lighting turns out as gray like in the show. Also I have the bottom saucer now lightblocked and ready for some of that awesome green tint paint coming soon!


----------



## asalaw

Awesome!!


----------



## bholcomb007

Do you think Gary would leave the painting guide info on this thread or should we follow him like a hawk on another thread?
And BTW, I am putting the first couple coats on the lower saucer tonight....DUN DUN DUN!!!!

Thanks guys...you keep me going!

Ben


----------



## asalaw

So, finally got back to my saucer! The hull color is finished, and I've cut out the templates for the grid lines and rust ring. Couldn't do much more, since I got shanghied into Easter brunch. (I also got some Batman work done, but that's for another thread somewhere.)

Here's a tip: I can never bear to cut up my only copy of something, so I went to FedEx/Kinko's. They have this printer/plotter/copier that copied my template sheets lickety-split! Three copies and four bucks later, I have my original plus three backups!


----------



## asalaw

Also, just for giggles, I went back through my collection of reference photos from the 2015 Udvar-Hazy open house. A few are mine, most are Brian Mix's, and the ones showing the port side were shot by Malcolm Collum with Brian's camera. I upped the contrast to bring out the weathering patterns as much as possible. I'm going a lot more subtle than this, but with the same general appearance and color scheme. All of these are available for download in the One-Stop TOS E thread on the RPF.


----------



## asalaw




----------



## asalaw

Ok guys, so the other day, this came in from fleaBay:










This is the reference book for the three gray accent colors, and I went for it because the Smithsonian article says "No adjustments needed" for these three colors. So I figured I could match the grays to these swatches and get moving on my intercoolers and impulse deck and such, plus post the Tamiya recipes here, plus check the swatches against my Fedex/Kinkos printout.

Well, the printout I made doesn't compare very well:


























Fortunately, though, I'm having better luck matching the swatches with Tamiya paints. I've got the light gray matched, I'm 95% there on the medium gray, and I should be able to match the dark gray tonight. When I'm done I'll post them all together.

Thing about this experience, for me at least, is that I get about 95% to a match very quickly, but that last 5% is a mother. That's where the bulk of the time is spent. 

Anyway, I'll post the finished matches tonight or tomorrow.


----------



## Gary K

If you want to muddy the waters even further, consider this. In the 1966 b&w publicity shots (the ones with the black background), the weathering on the upper & lower saucer stands out dramatically, in stark contrast to the way it appears today. There are 3 possible explanations:

a. The weathering, which was created by applying multiple layers of tinted shellac (or similar product), may have faded over time. ILM's John Goodson said that he's noticed this on various models over the years.

b. The photographer used a colored filter over the lens to enhance the weathering. For example, if you shoot an outdoor scene with b&w film and a red lens over the camera lens, the sky will turn almost black.

c. A combination of a & b.

Good luck at figuring out the correct answer!

Gary


----------



## Steve H

Gary K said:


> If you want to muddy the waters even further, consider this. In the 1966 b&w publicity shots (the ones with the black background), the weathering on the upper & lower saucer stands out dramatically, in stark contrast to the way it appears today. There are 3 possible explanations:
> 
> a. The weathering, which was created by applying multiple layers of tinted shellac (or similar product), may have faded over time. ILM's John Goodson said that he's noticed this on various models over the years.
> 
> b. The photographer used a colored filter over the lens to enhance the weathering. For example, if you shoot an outdoor scene with b&w film and a red lens over the camera lens, the sky will turn almost black.
> 
> c. A combination of a & b.
> 
> Good luck at figuring out the correct answer!
> 
> Gary


I suspect there were filters involved. 

Regardless, is there not an option (d)? That is, the weathering is more obvious due to the miniature being photographed in conditions other than 'effects studio stage' lighting, and the image hasn't been degraded by unknown number of generations? In addition to a and b of course.


----------



## Gary K

Steve H said:


> I suspect there were filters involved.
> 
> Regardless, is there not an option (d)? That is, the weathering is more obvious due to the miniature being photographed in conditions other than 'effects studio stage' lighting, and the image hasn't been degraded by unknown number of generations? In addition to a and b of course.


Last April, we had the 11-footer set up near a 55" monitor. We could look back & forth at the 1966 pics and the actual saucer, and hardly any weathering was visible on the upper saucer. This is one of those questions we can't answer without a time machine.

Gary


----------



## asalaw

Gary K said:


> If you want to muddy the waters even further, consider this. In the 1966 b&w publicity shots (the ones with the black background), the weathering on the upper & lower saucer stands out dramatically, in stark contrast to the way it appears today. There are 3 possible explanations:
> 
> a. The weathering, which was created by applying multiple layers of tinted shellac (or similar product), may have faded over time. ILM's John Goodson said that he's noticed this on various models over the years.
> 
> b. The photographer used a colored filter over the lens to enhance the weathering. For example, if you shoot an outdoor scene with b&w film and a red lens over the camera lens, the sky will turn almost black.
> 
> c. A combination of a & b.
> 
> Good luck at figuring out the correct answer!
> 
> Gary


:laugh::laugh::laugh:

No kidding!!!

And in the same light, within millimeters of each other, it's incredibly hard to tell if you have a perfect match or not. Especially if you have zero training in color matching. They didn't cover that in law school. Wasn't on the bar exam. 

I've got the light and medium grays around 98% matched (IMO), and I'm trying to get there on the dark gray. It's like herding unicorns.


----------



## Steve H

Gary K said:


> Last April, we had the 11-footer set up near a 55" monitor. We could look back & forth at the 1966 pics and the actual saucer, and hardly any weathering was visible on the upper saucer. This is one of those questions we can't answer without a time machine.
> 
> Gary


OK, but lighting?


Bright industrial fluoros? Natural sunshine filtered by tinted windows? 

I would make an uneducated guess that the ambient light in that viewing is geared to even 'shadowless' coverage so as to illuminate objects being inspected or restored, whereas the photography was intense directed lighting.

And again, we don't know a thing about what the intent, what the direction to the photographer was. Make the pics really high contrast because when they hit newsprint reproduction most of the 'stage make-up' would vanish in the repro but the shapes would be maintained, just like on TV, just like Asalaw discovered in his images? Might that be the context that's being forgotten?

ETA: the answer that seems to confirm my speculation is right in the identifier. "Publicity Photos". They're generally not meant to be seen on their own, 'naked' if you will, they're meant to be stripped into a newspaper column, a page of a movie magazine, a i inch box on a page of TV Guide. processed for the expected print medium (glossy stock, newsprint, whatever).


----------



## Captain Robert April

I suspect that the deal with those b&w publicity pics has something to do with them not having gone through the optical printer a few times before being printed. Black and white film is also very good with regard to clarity compared to color film (a big part of why black & white movies look the way they do; there are some things Technicolor just can't do).


----------



## Trek Ace

Gary K said:


> If you want to muddy the waters even further, consider this. In the 1966 b&w publicity shots (the ones with the black background), the weathering on the upper & lower saucer stands out dramatically, in stark contrast to the way it appears today. There are 3 possible explanations:
> 
> a. The weathering, which was created by applying multiple layers of tinted shellac (or similar product), may have faded over time. ILM's John Goodson said that he's noticed this on various models over the years.
> 
> b. The photographer used a colored filter over the lens to enhance the weathering. For example, if you shoot an outdoor scene with b&w film and a red lens over the camera lens, the sky will turn almost black.
> 
> c. A combination of a & b.
> 
> Good luck at figuring out the correct answer!
> 
> Gary


C. For the most part.


----------



## Trek Ace

Captain Robert April said:


> I suspect that the deal with those b&w publicity pics has something to do with them not having gone through the optical printer a few times before being printed. Black and white film is also very good with regard to clarity compared to color film (a big part of why black & white movies look the way they do; there are some things Technicolor just can't do).


Technicolor is shot on B&W stock.

_Star Trek_ was shot on Eastman Color Negative stock.


----------



## Gary K

Trek Ace said:


> Technicolor is shot on B&W stock.
> 
> _Star Trek_ was shot on Eastman Color Negative stock.


Very true. 5251 stock, to be precise. "5251" is taped onto a film reel in at least one behind-the-scenes photos we saw. The tungsten-balanced film had an ASA of only 50, but it reproduced colors more realistically than earlier types of film.

Gary


----------



## asalaw

Gary K said:


> Very true. 5251 stock, to be precise. "5251" is taped onto a film reel in at least one behind-the-scenes photos we saw.
> 
> Gary


I'd pay real money for a stack of their lab reports, or the camera reports from set. Or even just a high-res photo of the back of the slate, where the camera reports were attached (ever noticed those binder clips on the slates in the BTS stills?).


----------



## asalaw

So...

Still haven't arrived at a match for the grays. I thought I had yesterday, but as soon as I saw it in a different light source, I discovered I was only 90% there. I've never lacked for respect for the skills of the conservation team, but their paint analysts get a tip of my hat, my hair, and scalp. Yes, that's as painful as it sounds.  To sum up, this is not easy. It doesn't help that I'm learning as I go.

On the plus side, I do finally have the light gray at 98.5-99% match. It's a tough little nugget, since it's so bloody pale that it's hard to decide if the tone is on the green side or the blue side. Turns out it's sort of in between. Plus I had to reformulate, since my LHS ran out of one of the base colors I was using. Dropped yet another $45 on Tamiya paints today...

This _definitely_ will be my last large project using expensive hobby paints. I've been testing 50¢ Apple Barrel craft acrylics from Squalmart with Liquitex mediums, and they're fantastic. So, let's see -- $2.50 for 1/3 oz. (or $3.50 for 3/4 oz.) of Tamiya, or 50¢ for 2 oz. of Apple Barrel... hmmmm.... 

[EDIT] -- And HEY!! Just discovered I'm 98% of the way... _to the wrong color_. I was matching to the wrong chip all day today. The one NEXT TO Nickel. On the bright side, I've obviously progressed from senior moments to whole days! That's gotta count for _something_....


----------



## Captain Robert April

Trek Ace said:


> Technicolor is shot on B&W stock.
> 
> _Star Trek_ was shot on Eastman Color Negative stock.


:|

Okay, riddle me this: What film and camera was used by the photographer that took those publicity pictures? Those ain't screencaps.


----------



## asalaw

Captain Robert April said:


> :|
> 
> Okay, riddle me this: What film and camera was used by the photographer that took those publicity pictures? Those ain't screencaps.


The camera is a lot less relevant than the film. Cameras get mixed all the time, but they're all shooting the same stock, so it doesn't matter. For instance, a stuntman falling onto an airbag might be shot with two production Panaflexes, a Panastar, a pair of Pan-Arri IIIs, and a spring-wound Eyemo in the guy's rectum to catch that all-important falling POV shot. But they're all shooting the same Kodak stock, so all the shots will match.

But the B&W stills were likely taken in 35mm, and most likely Kodak Tri-X. If they were done in large format, though, I don't know -- I've never even dabbled in anything bigger than 35.


----------



## JGG1701

I am glad to see you guys want to be as accurate as possible.
Unfortunately, for me "RATTLE CAN" guy.
I will have to stick with Tamiya Light Ghost Grey.?
Jim G.G.


----------



## alensatemybuick

The B &W stills used in TMOST and elsewhere (ie. on the top of Roddenberry's own stationery) are a bit of a red herring, as the weathering on the ship visible in those photos is not the same as that seen in the Golden West College photos, the famous photo of Linwood Dunn filming the Enterprise, or the current resto. It seems to represent a slightly earlier version of the weathering, esp. with regards to the "space mud" that is absent on the seco. hull just behind / beneath the deflector. Who is to say if some weathering (such as under the saucer) may even have been de-emphasized after these photos were taken. The photos clearly show a "penultimate" (or earlier ) version of the ship, as also evidenced by the under-saucer decals and the white appearance of the nacelle domes, which we now know match an earlier version of the spinner effect seen in the recently released Roddenberry Vault footage.

As for where those beauty shot images originated, I recall reading in Daniel Fiebiger's 1996 Cinefantastique article that they were provided by the Westheimer Company. There is a great deal of similarity between the B+W images and color test footage from the Roddenberry Vault release, suggesting that at the very least, they were taken from the same filming session. I plan to ask the Okudas and Mr. Drexler when I see them this June in Ticonderoga, NY if they have any insights to offer on the images.

As for my own 1/350 scale Enterprise, I like to think it represents the ship just prior to its getting "down and dirty in the mud bog".


----------



## MartyS

asalaw said:


> But the B&W stills were likely taken in 35mm, and most likely Kodak Tri-X. If they were done in large format, though, I don't know -- I've never even dabbled in anything bigger than 35.


Tri-X was available in pretty much every size in the 60s. 35 and 120 were always available.

120 size Tri-X was the first film I developed myself when I was a kid. Can't remember if it was a birthday or Christmas present but it was a kit that had a direct printing box with 120 size paper, little 120 size trays for developing the prints, and a can to develop 120 size film. Ah the memories...


----------



## Milton Fox Racing

There was also a Pan X B&W film available at that time which was a very fine grained film and would show extreme and fine detail more readily. Hard to tell without seeing the actual photos and no telling how many times those images above have been digitally processed.


----------



## asalaw

Milton Fox Racing said:


> There was also a Pan X B&W film available at that time which was a very fine grained film and would show extreme and fine detail more readily. Hard to tell without seeing the actual photos and no telling how many times those images above have been digitally processed.


Ha!! Forgot all about Pan-X. I was quite the junior shutterbug in the 70s.


----------



## Steve H

Might it not be helpful to look into what was considered 'standard' for publicity shoots back in that time? Given that the intended end use was generally print media (not many TV shows would get lobby cards, right?  ) I'm sure there was some consensus on which film gave the best results. 

Of course it could vary by studio. It could vary with the difference between a 'studio staff' photog and an independent brought in.

But keep context in mind. WHY the pictures were taken (for use in print, mostly newspapers) should help inform how/what was used.


----------



## asalaw

Steve H said:


> Might it not be helpful to look into what was considered 'standard' for publicity shoots back in that time? Given that the intended end use was generally print media (not many TV shows would get lobby cards, right?  ) I'm sure there was some consensus on which film gave the best results.
> 
> Of course it could vary by studio. It could vary with the difference between a 'studio staff' photog and an independent brought in.
> 
> But keep context in mind. WHY the pictures were taken (for use in print, mostly newspapers) should help inform how/what was used.


That would be guesswork at best, since every shooter would have his own gear and preferred methods. There's really no such thing as "standard" professional photography.


----------



## Steve H

asalaw said:


> That would be guesswork at best, since every shooter would have his own gear and preferred methods. There's really no such thing as "standard" professional photography.


Bit, again, if it's a staff or 'house' photographer at Desilu, maybe attached to promotions or publicity, they would be known due to the work done at other shows shot at Desilu and thus have some consistent elements. 

Of course it's possible that Roddenberry hired outside because he knew someone, or had someone suggested to him, or could get a deal or a 'kickback' by billing Desilu, well, unless the billing is in the Roddenberry archives with all the other memos, right, we'll never know. 

Just suggesting an avenue of investigation. I'm sure someone has done an exhaustive research of Lucille Ball and her studio and probably has names...


----------



## robn1

Those shots could have just as easily been snapped by someone on the Westheimer crew, there's just no telling where they originated.


----------



## asalaw

Whew!! One gray down, two to go!

I'm calling this a 98.5-99% match:










Here's the recipe with Tamiya paints:

*20 Parts (TWENTY) XF-2 Flat White
1 Part XF-20 Medium Gray
1 Part XF-25 Light Sea Gray
*
I think a 100% match would be just a smidge bluer, but I don't have enough of a variety of paints on hand to really nail it. I tried XF-23, but that's _way_ too green. 

Working long hours through Thursday, which will be the last day of my current gig, so I'll get back to this on Friday with plenty of time to finish both grays.


----------



## asalaw

asalaw said:


> ...so I'll get back to this on Friday with plenty of time to finish both grays.


Unless I wake up at 3am for no good freepin' reason, decide to use terrible judgment, and spend the next three hours chasing the medium gray. :laugh:

Roughly 98% match:










*Recipe in Tamiya Paints: 

18 Parts XF-2 Flat White
14 Parts XF-20 Medium Gray
1 Part XF-76 Gray Green (IJN)*


----------



## asalaw

Finally! I have a 98ish% match to the dark gray! And I have my wife to thank for it. I asked her to give it a look, and she immediately spotted the need not only for a 10:1 addition of white to green, but she picked the exact green it needed! If I ever cheated on her, she'd match the lipstick on my collar to the chick's face, no question. 

So here it is:










*Tamiya paints:

10 Parts XF-55 Deck Tan
10 Parts XF-2 Flat White
3 Parts XF-1 Flat Black
1 Part XF-14 J.A. Gray*



Sooooo....

Please bear in mind these matches are not as close as they look in these photos, but they are very, very close. If you want an EXACT match, I'd recommend getting the Pratt & Lambert Calibrated Colors IV book on fleaBay and having it computer matched somewhere. Maybe as an acrylic lacquer from an auto paints place. But this will do for my purposes, and I bet for many of yours. Enjoy!!


----------



## whereisanykey

Are you taking into account the difference in scales and how that reflects in matching colors.


----------



## Steve H

whereisanykey said:


> Are you taking into account the difference in scales and how that reflects in matching colors.


It's a constant argument, as is the "can we REALLY know the true colors as we're not sure how much they've altered due to age, including the interesting use of tinted clear lacquer overspray and has anyone considered there may have been 'anti-flair' (I think that's kinda sorta industrial Dulcoat) used to take some shine off from some parts at some specific shots" basically, the only way to REALLY know 100% would involve a time machine. 

As we all know, in the end one should paint the Enterprise the way it looks best to you, the builder. Right?


----------



## asalaw

whereisanykey said:


> Are you taking into account the difference in scales and how that reflects in matching colors.


No. Scaling is subjective. What I tried to do was match the colors to readily available hobby paints, since you can't scale correctly without starting with a match in the first place. If someone wants to scale their colors, they're the ones who need to decide how much scaling is appropriate.


----------



## Trek Ace

At one-quarter scale, there wouldn't be much of a perceptual difference in the paint colors.


----------



## asalaw

Trek Ace said:


> At one-quarter scale, there wouldn't be much of a perceptual difference in the paint colors.


That's interesting-- I often think of this kit as 1/4 Scale to the 11' model instead of 1/350 to the ship. ?


----------



## robn1

And there wouldn't be any aerial perspective in space to affect the colors anyway. I'd say match to the 11ft model and it'll be fine.


----------



## asalaw

robn1 said:


> And there wouldn't be any aerial perspective in space to affect the colors anyway. I'd say match to the 11ft model and it'll be fine.


I completely forgot about that. Unless you're doing the Tomorrow is Yesterday version...


----------



## robn1

asalaw said:


> I completely forgot about that. Unless you're doing the Tomorrow is Yesterday version...


Or the Requiem For Methuselah table top version. Which is interesting, if the 'real' ship were shrunk down to 33in size and viewed up close, what would the colors look like?


----------



## Gary K

robn1 said:


> And there wouldn't be any aerial perspective in space to affect the colors anyway. I'd say match to the 11ft model and it'll be fine.


Unless you've spent a fair amount of time living in outer space, your brain is wired to perceive objects through an atmosphere. Any "scale effect" would be negligible at 1:350 scale, but might be noticeable at 1:1000 scale and smaller.

Gary


----------



## asalaw

So, fascinating little side trip to NASM this morning. Took my Pratt & Lambert fan book and some other chips, and totally surprised myself!

I didn't quite match the penants, but came close enough to go with. What knocked my socks off was the PL matches. 

The NASM color guide is right on -- these are dead matches to those three accent grays. But what blew my mind was _where_ they matched. 

1. I thought for sure the medium gray went on the nacelle aft exhaust caps and aft vents. Nope. Dark gray. Exact match to the Gettysburg. 

2. I thought the nacelle trench was the same color as the vents. Nope. Looks like the medium gray. [Nope -- I'm wrong here.] Couldn't tell for sure owing to the distance and lack of lighting. Gary?

3. I _think_ the inboard intercoolers are medium gray in the middle. Looks like light gray elbows, medium gray center "towel rack," and hull color forward toothy bit. Gary?

4. The impulse rail and engine look medium gray, with dark gray for that outside vinyl wrapper. Again, hard because lighting. 

5. Pylon vents are definitely the dark gray. 

If I'm off anywhere, I certainly want to know. Partly because we should try to be factual vs. first, but mostly because I enjoy a little discipline now and then. 

EDIT

Here are the chips I matched up. In the first photo, the one in the center right with rounded corners is the Valspar color Cut Ruby, which NASM said was approximate. I think it's too dark and too red, but they had better lighting and said it's too red and too yellow. Second photo is the two chips I came close to nearly kind of exactly matching almost. No, I'm not going to explain what PCH stands for except to say it's an industry term (or was in my day when we were all sexist pigs) and is a noun phrase used as an adverb. It means "a tiny, tiny, tiny bit."


----------



## robn1

asalaw said:


> ...I came close to nearly kind of exactly matching almost.


As long as you're almost certainly iffy.


----------



## asalaw

robn1 said:


> As long as you're almost certainly iffy.


Well, I don't want to jump to conclusions before all the facts are in...


----------



## bholcomb007

Yes I am sooo waiting on the color mixes for the 11' model...


----------



## asalaw

bholcomb007 said:


> Yes I am sooo waiting on the color mixes for the 11' model...


You got Gary's post for the Testors Model Master hull colors, right? This post here.

Tell you what -- I painted a few accent pieces in the correct grays and laid them on the saucer. When you look at the Pratt book chips by themselves, you think these grays are crazy -- they're _brown_!! But then you place them against the greenish hull, and they're gorgeous. They just work. Pretty awesome!


----------



## Steve H

Would the 'PCH' happen to involve something generally seen to be short and curly? 

Seriously, colors be a funky thing. The more one looks into what color is and how it works, and you start to get into how the eye works and light frequencies and all that, you almost want to run screaming around the room and clawing at your eyes like the guy in 'X the man with the x-ray eyes'.


----------



## asalaw

Steve H said:


> Would the 'PCH' happen to involve something generally seen to be short and curly?


No comment. 



> Seriously, colors be a funky thing. The more one looks into what color is and how it works, and you start to get into how the eye works and light frequencies and all that, you almost want to run screaming around the room and clawing at your eyes like the guy in 'X the man with the x-ray eyes'.


No kidding -- and here I am fessing up to being wrong about the nacelle trench color -- it's the same dark gray as the end caps and pylon vents, not medium gray as I said before. I got it wrong looking at the model, and caught my mistake looking at my photos. Go figure.


----------



## Steve H

Hey Asalaw, here is a really dumb question, speaking of colors and nacelle trench.

Given there's two different things going on- a real physical trench and a faux illusion, are they the same colors? I mean, is there a bit more work with the faux trench to help the illusion, like additional shades? (of course this is meaningless in the context of the 1/350 kit as it, and all Enterprise model kits, have actual trenches in both nacelles)

I just wonder because, man, I don't know about in person but every pic you and others have posted, that illusion is rock solid. No matter the angle, casual or really focused, it takes an effort of will to say "that's not a trench, it's paint and some stuff".


----------



## Gary K

Steve H said:


> Hey Asalaw, here is a really dumb question, speaking of colors and nacelle trench.
> 
> Given there's two different things going on- a real physical trench and a faux illusion, are they the same colors? I mean, is there a bit more work with the faux trench to help the illusion, like additional shades? (of course this is meaningless in the context of the 1/350 kit as it, and all Enterprise model kits, have actual trenches in both nacelles)
> 
> I just wonder because, man, I don't know about in person but every pic you and others have posted, that illusion is rock solid. No matter the angle, casual or really focused, it takes an effort of will to say "that's not a trench, it's paint and some stuff".


The faux Production nacelle recess was made from the regular light, medium, and dark gray trim colors, plus an extra-dark gray.

Gary


----------



## robn1

Steve H said:


> ...I just wonder because, man, I don't know about in person but every pic you and others have posted, that illusion is rock solid. No matter the angle, casual or really focused, it takes an effort of will to say "that's not a trench, it's paint and some stuff".


The illusion is solid even when standing just a few feet away.


----------



## asalaw

Gary K said:


> The faux Production nacelle recess was made from the regular light, medium, and dark gray trim colors, plus an extra-dark gray.
> 
> Gary


Yep -- the extra-dark gray is the floor part of the trench. It's really interesting...



robn1 said:


> The illusion is solid even when standing just a few feet away.


...because that.


----------



## asalaw

So, filled in the dips in the backs of the endcaps...










Got them painted and glued...










... but had to go in for touch-ups. The white tape is Tamiya tape for curves, 3mm. The yellow is some cheap RC stuff from my LHS that works really, really well.










And here's a comparison I did midway through (the final look is actually the second photo here):


----------



## robn1

The shading on your balls is very nice.


----------



## Steve H

robn1 said:


> The shading on your balls is very nice.


PHRASING! 



Asalaw, I'm obviously not up to speed to the tweeks and fiddling regarding the kit. What, exactly, do you mean about 'filled in the dips' in the back of the endcaps? Is it a sinkhole issue? Is it the part isn't curved quite right (because it was designed pre-restoration and thus something appeared that was not known until this time, LIKE JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING  ) What's the 'gen', my good sir?


----------



## asalaw

Yeah, just a molding sinkhole on either side of the holes. Very shallow, no biggie to fill. I didn't even notice them till the first coat of paint. 

Rob -- BWAAAAAHAHAHA!!!!!!


----------



## asalaw

And for today's work (I gotta start looking for more work soon...):

Finished the impulse deck. The hard part was the edges of that vinyl wrapper on the 11', so here's what I did.

I decided it would be easiest to cut my masks starting with a circle for the elliptical edge, and some trial and error yielded 7/32" as the right(ish) size to use as a guide. The circle guide really needs to be metal for this kind of thing, or your blade will get stuck into it. Also, for mask cutting, _always start with a brand new blade_. This is not even remotely optional.










After cutting the circle, I cut two strips and placed them on either side. The resulting mask:










And now onto the brush: I used this Windsor & Newton Series 7 #000 detail brush, recommended by an article in _Sci-Fi & Fantasy Modeller_ (a moment of silence, please). For tiny work like this, or figure painting, you want a very good brush. The cheapo Artist's Loft ones from Michael's will not do a very good job for this kind of work. This was around $16.00, I think at Amazon. Worth every penny. A good brush is an investment, so you want to keep it in good shape when your done. The conditioner shown below was also recommended in the same SF&FM article as the brush.


















And finally, after much huffing, puffing, shaky hands, crying, and bloodletting (plus a couple of touchups), the result:


----------



## asalaw

:grin2:










_Don't worry, this will get a lot of touching up, and of course the weathering will cover a multitude of sins. _


----------



## Steve H

I dunno, man. I think you need another coat of paint on that, I can still see the lines.


----------



## asalaw

Steve H said:


> I dunno, man. I think you need another coat of paint on that, I can still see the lines.


:laugh:
Totally funny, yet true -- the grid is getting some very thin hull color in some spots to tone it down, especially the rings. I made the radii with a sharp HB pencil, but forgot my compass just had regular soft lead in it. You really want to do this with an HB lead.

Also, when erasing this stuff for touchups, an Eraser Mate eraser works great, but use multiple light passes. If you grind on it you'll start to rub off paint. :smile2:


----------



## Steve H

asalaw said:


> :laugh:
> Totally funny, yet true -- the grid is getting some very thin hull color in some spots to tone it down, especially the rings. I made the radii with a sharp HB pencil, but forgot my compass just had regular soft lead in it. You really want to do this with an HB lead.
> 
> Also, when erasing this stuff for touchups, an Eraser Mate eraser works great, but use multiple light passes. If you grind on it you'll start to rub off paint. :smile2:


*heh*

Allow me to re-state my take on the lines. I have the belief that originally, they were nothing more than alignment marks put in place to help ensure correct alignment of the name and numbers in case they used the reversed decals for filming. It would also help with other details. Just in case the lines might show on film more lines were drawn, creating a grid effect and thus, in old computer terms, if they WERE seen it was a 'feature' instead of a 'bug' or flaw. 

Mind, if they had left it as just a 'pie wedge' of fine lines for that decal alignment it could still have worked. And again, it may well be that Jefferies had re-thought his original 'smooth, seamless' idea as Roddenberry called for more and more detailing. We do have the lines appearing on the scaling 3-view of the ship generated for the AMT box art and the Enterprise/Klingon size comparison. And, oh crap, I have totally forgotten that the AMT kit had embossed grid lines! 

Well doo dee doo. I just don't really know anymore.


----------



## bholcomb007

asalaw said:


> You got Gary's post for the Testors Model Master hull colors, right? This post here.
> 
> Tell you what -- I painted a few accent pieces in the correct grays and laid them on the saucer. When you look at the Pratt book chips by themselves, you think these grays are crazy -- they're _brown_!! But then you place them against the greenish hull, and they're gorgeous. They just work. Pretty awesome!


Yes I did!
Remember I posted the color mix after I got the paint in?
I am waiting on the accent colors for my next steps...

I have been sooo busy with fixing up our old house I have not had much time to work on the model...on another note, I just got in the 1.350 Enterprise Refit this weekend!

Another long project awaiting!


----------



## asalaw

Well, frankly, I'm stunned -- I'm not finished with the touchups yet, but I'm already ecstatic with the results. When you airbrush light, thin hull color over pencil, it really does start to look like panel lines.

The very dark radius on the left is going to stay pretty dark, as a nod to the 11' model -- that particular line really sticks out. Anyway, not calling this done just yet, but I'm incredibly happy with it!


----------



## Steve H

I think the telling point will be what happens when you hit that with clear green overspray. Or do you plan to omit that part of the 'stage make-up' weathering job? 

Because while it may not be 'exactly like the filming miniature' at this point, my instincts are screaming "stop! STOP! It's perfect! Decal the beast and seal it!" ya know? 

I know you've got several stages more to go for that 'duplicate the miniature' look but man. That would have been a very credible and pleasing finish for a build 20 years ago. Before we knew and all that.


----------



## asalaw

And here's the rest of what I got done today. The exhaust caps got touchups, everything else is new paint and putty. Yay! 










Painted the dish with Testors copper. Just one word -- HOLYFRACK!!! (It's pretty good paint.)


----------



## asalaw

Steve H said:


> I think the telling point will be what happens when you hit that with clear green overspray. Or do you plan to omit that part of the 'stage make-up' weathering job?
> 
> Because while it may not be 'exactly like the filming miniature' at this point, my instincts are screaming "stop! STOP! It's perfect! Decal the beast and seal it!" ya know?
> 
> I know you've got several stages more to go for that 'duplicate the miniature' look but man. That would have been a very credible and pleasing finish for a build 20 years ago. Before we knew and all that.


Thanks!

Well, not exactly _duplicate_, since I don't think that's possible at my current skill level. But definitely get "the look," just more subtle to suit the scale.

For the "overspray," by which I think you mean the drybrushed clear green varnish (I think -- Gary?), I'm gonna try out Citadel Shade in Biel-Tan Green. I also have Agrax Earthshade and Seraphim Sepia shades for the lighter and darker streaking that I'm going to try. These are basically incredibly thin acrylic washes you can airbrush right out of the bottle. I'm going to try building up the tan arc with the Sepia and the Earthshade. I have another turquoise wash I'll try for the dorsal front edge.

No idea if they'll work, but it'll be fun!


----------



## Steve H

Asalaw, are you lighting this or building it 'static'? I suppose I could go back 20 or so pages and see if you mentioned it but I'm kinda lazy today


----------



## JediDad

asalaw said:


> And here's a comparison I did midway through (the final look is actually the second photo here):




VERY cool!! Love the shading.


----------



## asalaw

Steve H said:


> Asalaw, are you lighting this or building it 'static'? I suppose I could go back 20 or so pages and see if you mentioned it but I'm kinda lazy today


Yup! Lighting kit plus full PaulBo (both his PE sets). Working on getting the various parts sub-assembled and painted, then the electronics phase will start. I want to do all the wiring and the motor-silencing trick all at once, since I have to clear my bench for that. Soldering vs. painting. Well, more cheap folding Walmart table than bench. 

Gonna spend the weekend on the Moebius Batman, though -- Tuesday is the second anniversary of a friend's passing, and I want to post the finished model on his page. And somewhere in there I have to spam my agency list and troll for work... 



JediDad said:


> VERY cool!! Love the shading.


Thanks! Just got done touching those up.


----------



## Captain Robert April

This has been a running gag with me, but I'm of the opinion that any greenish tint to the model was done to better separate the miniature from the bluescreen (the fuzzy matte lines are proof enough that there were clearly problems photographing the big gray beast against the big blue background, so it makes sense they try whatever they could to differentiate it as much as possible without getting garish).


----------



## asalaw

Captain Robert April said:


> This has been a running gag with me, but I'm of the opinion that any greenish tint to the model was done to better separate the miniature from the bluescreen (the fuzzy matte lines are proof enough that there were clearly problems photographing the big gray beast against the big blue background, so it makes sense they try whatever they could to differentiate it as much as possible without getting garish).


Well, there was definitely blue spill in some shots, which show up as grainy holes in the saucer. It wouldn't surprise me if a greenish tint was requested for that reason after the second pilot. Gary would know more than I, all I can do is make the educated guess that it's a good reason to tint it green. Come to think of it, I've never paid attention to whether those matte holes occurred in production vs. pilot shots.:smile2:


----------



## Steve H

asalaw said:


> Well, there was definitely blue spill in some shots, which show up as grainy holes in the saucer. It wouldn't surprise me if a greenish tint was requested for that reason after the second pilot. Gary would know more than I, all I can do is make the educated guess that it's a good reason to tint it green. Come to think of it, I've never paid attention to whether those matte holes occurred in production vs. pilot shots.:smile2:


And remember, we've recently learned that they apparently routinely ran the effects thru a couple of generations, 'stepped on' the shot, to help hide things like mattes and bleed.

It would not surprise me if the green overspray was both additional 'stage make-up' to help keep shapes defined as the film was run thru several generations (and of course always remember that there was still PLENTY of B&W TVs in homes. Color TV hadn't made 100% penetration in homes. Heck, we didn't get a color set until 1972) and a way to help counter 'blue spill' light reflections on that huge, pale mostly flat disc of the saucer. 

Let's face it, as much as we all love the Enterprise, it's easy to see what a nightmare that had to be to shoot in 1966 on a comparatively low weekly TV show budget.


----------



## Trek Ace

Steve H said:


> And remember, we've recently learned that they apparently routinely ran the effects thru a couple of generations, 'stepped on' the shot, to help hide things like mattes and bleed.


That's one of the most ridiculous suppositions I've heard yet. Spending extra time/money to deliberately degrade the image? The budget and time were tight enough as it was without resorting to such nonsensical measures. Each shot went through only the necessary steps in order to make the comp. No more. Any holes in the mattes would have required time-consuming and expensive rotoscoping in order to fix. Something that was completely outside the allotted budget.

We are all spoiled with our digital tools of today, where cleaning up a problematic matte requires only a few clicks of a mouse and sliding of a control and can be done at a workstation in a few moments. Fifty years ago, those same steps required days or weeks of additional man hours and processes in order to complete. You did what you could with the tools you had and the budget and time available in order to meet the airdate. That's all you could do, whether the end result was perfect or not.


----------



## Skyking918

According to Paul Newitt, the original color was a bit greenish to begin with:

What Color Is The Classic Enterprise? by Paul M. Newitt ? CultTVman Fantastic Modeling


----------



## asalaw

Trek Ace said:


> That's one of the most ridiculous suppositions I've heard yet. Spending extra time/money to deliberately degrade the image? The budget and time were tight enough as it was without resorting to such nonsensical measures. Each shot went through only the necessary steps in order to make the comp. No more. Any holes in the mattes would have required time-consuming and expensive rotoscoping in order to fix. Something that was completely outside the allotted budget.
> 
> We are all spoiled with our digital tools of today, where cleaning up a problematic matte requires only a few clicks of a mouse and sliding of a control and can be done at a workstation in a few moments. Fifty years ago, those same steps required days or weeks of additional man hours and processes in order to complete. You did what you could with the tools you had and the budget and time available in order to meet the airdate. That's all you could do, whether the end result was perfect or not.


Any viewing of the original VFX in HD will dispel that idea immediately. In some shots the matte lines are thicker than the penants. I'd have to go back and review, but I'm fairly sure they were out of registration in some shots -- something they didn't have the time or money to fix. The mere fact that they had to split the FX work (between Anderson and Van Der Veer, IIRC) shows they were under constant schedule pressure to make their air dates, and hardly in a position to make extensive post-processing work.


----------



## scooke123

I'm sure they weren't highly concerned since viewing on the small grainy B&W screens of the day wouldn't show a lot a detail. Plus when you were a kid watching it you didn't really care anyway.


----------



## asalaw

scooke123 said:


> I'm sure they weren't highly concerned since viewing on the small grainy B&W screens of the day wouldn't show a lot a detail. Plus when you were a kid watching it you didn't really care anyway.


That certainly was my 7-year-old experience. 

In other news, I'm switching back and forth between the E and Batman, and it turns out it's a lot more fun dividing your time between two kits! Keeps things from getting boring, and keeps you productive during drying times.


----------



## alensatemybuick

Skyking918 said:


> According to Paul Newitt, the original color was a bit greenish to begin with:
> 
> What Color Is The Classic Enterprise? by Paul M. Newitt ? CultTVman Fantastic Modeling


Well problem with that article is it is rather old and the information within more than a bit subjective and arguably outdated too. Any overspray on Mr. Datin's plans would presumably have been the original paint used on the ship, not necessarily indicative of how it looked in the series. 

The Enterprise sure had a greenish tint in photos of it depicted alongside the Botany Bay on the cover of Gerrold's 1973 book "The World of Star Trek". But then lighting conditions, camera, film, and printing process would all have an impact on the perceived color, just as my own 1/350 scale model can look alternately slightly green, slightly blue, and various shades of grey from light to dark in photos I've taken of it.

Heck, the colors in the exact same image of my own model can look different when viewing it on my cellphone, my computer screen, printouts I've made using my own printer, the one at work, and even Shutterfly prints I've ordered. So trying to get the color "just right" compared to the current best educated guess as applied to the 11 footer smacks of whimsy to me.


----------



## asalaw

Not much progress today, spent most of the day on the Caped Crusader. Looks like I'll make my Tuesday goal to post it.

But I did get some starboard nacelle detailng done. I'm only lacking the aft brass vent, that'll go in tomorrow morning, then weathering the trench so I can install the inboard intercooler. In the picture it's just in place, not glued yet. Starting to look like a starship...



















The center "towel bar" of the inboard intercooler feels overweathered to me, even though the one on the 11-footer is heavily weathered. But that's why I started with the starboard nacelle. I'll be displaying the model starboard "hero" side toward the viewer, so any mistakes or bad choices on the port side won't matter as much.  So I may not weather the port inboard intercooler quite as much, and that'll be the one facing starboard.


----------



## bholcomb007

Nice work Asalaw...I personally am going for a "brand new" out of the drydock look...I want the pristine E for my display. I understand though going for the current filming model look!
Anyway, what mix did you use for the gray highlights? Like I said I am waiting to hear something from Gary, but I am all ears to what you have going because it looks super close to me!!!!

I also am going to be able to have some more time with my model in the coming weeks as I am going to put up some progress photos of my own!

Thanks for all the info, it is very helpful.

Ben


----------



## asalaw

bholcomb007 said:


> Nice work Asalaw...I personally am going for a "brand new" out of the drydock look...I want the pristine E for my display. I understand though going for the current filming model look!
> Anyway, what mix did you use for the gray highlights? Like I said I am waiting to hear something from Gary, but I am all ears to what you have going because it looks super close to me!!!!
> 
> I also am going to be able to have some more time with my model in the coming weeks as I am going to put up some progress photos of my own!
> 
> Thanks for all the info, it is very helpful.
> 
> Ben


Can't wait to see it!! :smile2:

I got the accent grays from the Pratt & Lambert color fan called out by the conservators in Revealing the colors of the Enterprise. 

Then I came as close as I could with Tamiya paints, and I think I got to about a 98(ish-kinda)% match. Anyway, close enough for me. 

Here's my first post for the light gray mix: http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/6223881-post2052.html

The second post for the medium gray: http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/6224065-post2053.html

The third post for the dark gray: http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/6227978-post2054.html

I was kinda surprised by how brown they seem to be, but I took the book to the model and compared, and they're a dead match, just as the conservators said (or more specifically, "No adjustment needed"). It's only when you see them in the context of the hull color that they make sense.


----------



## asalaw

"Scotty, the starboard nacelle trench is filthy! Send a redshirt out to clean it at once!"

"Aye, sir -- eh, should there be a crewman in it, or should I just jettison a shirt?"

"I trust your judgment, Scotty."


----------



## Steve H

I gotta do it. I gotta say it man. No fear, no shame, just putting it out there, here we go...

SPPPAAAAAAACCCCCEE MUDDDDDD!

I am not sorry.


----------



## asalaw

Steve H said:


> I gotta do it. I gotta say it man. No fear, no shame, just putting it out there, here we go...
> 
> SPPPAAAAAAACCCCCEE MUDDDDDD!
> 
> I am not sorry.


Plasma vents. They corrode the hull, and _then_ the space mud gets stuck to it.


----------



## asalaw

Yay!!! The photo makes the stripe look much greener than it is, but having said that, it's probably too green. Might wash it with a little clear blue tomorrow. 










Uh... or tonight... I guess...










I hope I can restrain myself from doing the light mist coat of hull color over it till tomorrow. Watch this space. 

EDIT -- 

Or not. Maybe one day I'll learn to control my impulses. But not today.


----------



## whereisanykey

I don't want to be too nit picky here but since you've went to such efforts in color I will go ahead and mention this. It is something I've noticed in many builds and there is a variety in how it has been done. 

The intersecting line of that dorsal color intersects the top window and splits it from the top right to bottom left. The next intersection in the middle window pretty much covers the entire window. 

The way I did it was use the top window intersection corners and extended the line down which gives the second window fully covered, if I explained it well enough.

Greg


----------



## Steve H

whereisanykey said:


> I don't want to be too nit picky here but since you've went to such efforts in color I will go ahead and mention this. It is something I've noticed in many builds and there is a variety in how it has been done.
> 
> The intersecting line of that dorsal color intersects the top window and splits it from the top right to bottom left. The next intersection in the middle window pretty much covers the entire window.
> 
> The way I did it was use the top window intersection corners and extended the line down which gives the second window fully covered, if I explained it well enough.
> 
> Greg


I think what you're saying here is that Asalaw doesn't need to make the blue/green wider so much as change the angle? That the angle of the paint doesn't quite follow the angle of the leading edge?

Because I can completely see Jefferies doing that.


----------



## whereisanykey

What I mean to say is the dorsal line needs to be shifted slightly to the left.

This shows the line the dorsal color intersects with. 

http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g404/dmon5/Dorsal_windows-leading_edge_zps632bbe7a.jpg


----------



## asalaw

whereisanykey said:


> I don't want to be too nit picky here but since you've went to such efforts in color I will go ahead and mention this. It is something I've noticed in many builds and there is a variety in how it has been done.
> 
> The intersecting line of that dorsal color intersects the top window and splits it from the top right to bottom left. The next intersection in the middle window pretty much covers the entire window.
> 
> The way I did it was use the top window intersection corners and extended the line down which gives the second window fully covered, if I explained it well enough.
> 
> Greg


Thanks so much for recognizing the color efforts-- that means a lot! 

I'm aware that the location of the line is off, and it was deliberate -- I have a very good, straight-on shot of the 11' model's dorsal. However, lining up the line that way causes it to tilt unacceptably (to my eye), whereas the line on the 11' model looks nearly parallel with the leading edge. So I split the difference. In other words, I was more concerned with the bird's-eye view than the exact location of the line relative to the windows.

I think the 1/350 windows may be a hair farther away from the leading edge than on the 11' model; in any event, it just doesn't look right to me when I use the windows as a line-up guide rather than the geometry of the leading edge. I suppose it could be a distortion issue with the photo...










EDIT --

You guys got me thinking, so I did this comparison. I corrected for the difference in lens and perspective as much as I could, and I see I'm much farther off than I thought I'd be. I may yet adjust the line, but it'll have to be another compromise, since, as I said above, I don't want the line to tilt too much away from the parallel so it looks wonky.


----------



## Steve H

whereisanykey said:


> What I mean to say is the dorsal line needs to be shifted slightly to the left.
> 
> This shows the line the dorsal color intersects with.
> 
> http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g404/dmon5/Dorsal_windows-leading_edge_zps632bbe7a.jpg


Yes, slightly shifted, slightly wider and per asalaw's photo compare a little change in angle.

Plus the concern that the windows on the model may be a bit 'off' compared to the 11 foot miniature. 

(some would go whole hog and fill them in and cut new ones, I don't think that's a thing asalaw plans on doing. yet.  )

But to go to something mentioned 'later' (actually above this post), I think that the slight angle difference (not perfectly parallel to the leading edge) actually matters, because it's all about proportion and balance and that 'stage make-up' nonsense I keep going on about. Tapering the blue/green line helps prevent the eye from creating 'droop' of the saucer. 

If the paint line stays parallel to the edge it'll make it look like the saucer isn't sitting right. I'm pretty sure about this.


----------



## whereisanykey

If I'm understanding correctly. It doesn't appear to me that the dorsal line is parallel to the edge but rather an angle. This is what I wanted to accomplish on my 66". 

I haven't seen it in person and only have pictures to go by, including some screen caps. I used as a guide the images of the scaled drawing identifying colors that apparently is on display with the model. It is the "Design History of the 11-foot studio model".

A far as I can tell by screen colors and photo printing that dorsal color is fairly close the "Duck Egg Blue" with some tinting.

Greg


----------



## asalaw

Steve H said:


> Yes, slightly shifted, slightly wider and per asalaw's photo compare a little change in angle.
> 
> Plus the concern that the windows on the model may be a bit 'off' compared to the 11 foot miniature.
> 
> (some would go whole hog and fill them in and cut new ones, I don't think that's a thing asalaw plans on doing. yet.  )
> 
> But to go to something mentioned 'later' (actually above this post), I think that the slight angle difference (not perfectly parallel to the leading edge) actually matters, because it's all about proportion and balance and that 'stage make-up' nonsense I keep going on about. Tapering the blue/green line helps prevent the eye from creating 'droop' of the saucer.
> 
> If the paint line stays parallel to the edge it'll make it look like the saucer isn't sitting right. I'm pretty sure about this.


I have actually sanded it back and reapplied the hull color, and I'm going to remask with the new line I figured out. It's a difference of roughly 2mm back at the top, and maybe 4mm back on the bottom -- I was fairly far off on the bottom and it affected my perception. It still won't be exact, but it'll be better. Nope, not cutting new windows. Not worth the candle. Besides, I can't be sure I'm right about that, nor which way to correct things anyway.



whereisanykey said:


> If I'm understanding correctly. It doesn't appear to me that the dorsal line is parallel to the edge but rather an angle. This is what I wanted to accomplish on my 66".
> 
> I haven't seen it in person and only have pictures to go by, including some screen caps. I used as a guide the images of the scaled drawing identifying colors that apparently is on display with the model. It is the "Design History of the 11-foot studio model".
> 
> A far as I can tell by screen colors and photo printing that dorsal color is fairly close the "Duck Egg Blue" with some tinting.
> 
> Greg


I wasn't 100% happy with my color, either, so I'm going to revisit my mix. I have seen the 11' model many, many times, and looked at the same stuff you have, and I'm still not sure what I'm looking at. The dorsal is under the saucer's shadow at NASM, so it's extremely difficult to figure out what you're looking at, even in person. And digital photos are the FIATs of color reference, so all I have is a very thorough and detailed collection of unreliable data. 

Nearest I've been able to figure out is to lean it bluish and tint over with hull color. I think. Maybe.


----------



## Steve H

I can't help but think that paint needs to tend more to the blue. 

Might I suggest a paint test before going to the parts? Hull color, then the more blue dorsal stripe color, and then see what green tint overspray does to it.

Darn it. Now I'm thinking about the bluescreen and maybe that stripe does need to be more green than blue. But the pilot version 'all blue' didn't seem to have...wait, no, we don't know because we never really saw the dorsal of the 11 foot miniature in the pilot...

nerts. all this stuff, the knowledge, gets so darn confusing in these discussions! So, solution. Paint it so it looks good to you. Use the 11 foot miniature restoration as a guide but change things that look better to you. It's your model. 

(I still think dorsal stripe should be more to the blue  )


----------



## asalaw

Steve H said:


> I can't help but think that paint needs to tend more to the blue.
> 
> Might I suggest a paint test before going to the parts? Hull color, then the more blue dorsal stripe color, and then see what green tint overspray does to it.


That's _exactly_ what I did yesterday -- but today I'm going to do it _off_ the model... 

EDIT

WOW!

That worked out nicely. This time I went back to my pre-mixed blue-green, which was based on Pantone 2218 C, which was the nearest the FS color called out by the Smithsonian translated to using online color engines. Mind you, they said it "requires thinning to a very transparent wash," which I did, and the results were what I was looking for:










And here we are:










So apart from weathering, I'm sticking a fork in this. Checking the gate... gate is clean... camera moves.


----------



## robn1

You got it that time. The window positions look fine to me, but the height of the windows is off. And how did that one bottom window get narrower than the others?


----------



## whereisanykey

Well, it looks perfect to me, Because it looks just the same as mine  . From every picture I've seen there Does seem to be somewhat of a taper to that dorsal. 

I don't know your mixture but I doubt there is much difference at all from what I came up with, starting from Duck Egg Blue. 

I think it somewhat resembles a turquoise shade type color. 

I Do think you have come so close any further attempts would be fruitless. 

I don't know if its the optics but that small window on the left panel Does seem a bit narrower. It would be easy enough with a straight edge to find out and using a file to widen it out a bit. It wouldn't interfere with the existing paint. On the other hand I understand the window inserts are premade so that makes any change moot.

Regarding the side by side images above and the color saturation. It depends on what clip a person looks at in the series since there are times when the dorsal looks much brighter than the current model reflects. 

Greg


----------



## asalaw

robn1 said:


> You got it that time. The window positions look fine to me, but the height of the windows is off. And how did that one bottom window get narrower than the others?


That's an issue in various places around the model, especially on the secondary hull. The windows have flashing in them (especially the round portholes). It's an outstanding kit, but not flawless. I use the ol' hobby knife trick -- shave away a little plastic, slice through a finger, scream, wipe it up, bandaid, cry, repeat. Eventually it all gets fixed. 



whereisanykey said:


> Well, it looks perfect to me, Because it looks just the same as mine . From every picture I've seen there Does seem to be somewhat of a taper to that dorsal.
> 
> I don't know your mixture but I doubt there is much difference at all from what I came up with, starting from Duck Egg Blue.
> 
> I think it somewhat resembles a turquoise shade type color.
> 
> I Do think you have come so close any further attempts would be fruitless.


Yup. Hence the fork I stuck in it -- even when it's not perfect, you get to diminishing returns on future attempts, so you stop.  



> I don't know if its the optics but that small window on the left panel Does seem a bit narrower. It would be easy enough with a straight edge to find out and using a file to widen it out a bit. It wouldn't interfere with the existing paint. On the other hand I understand the window inserts are premade so that makes any change moot.


I have tiny needle files I used successfully on the B/C deck, but occasionally I use the hobby blade/lethal weapon method described above.


----------



## asalaw

WOOHOO!! 

Both inboard nacelles finished, and I love 'em. Here's the hero side:










Wee bit less weathering this time around. Here's the paints I used for the drybrushing:










Also, got the nav deflector assembly painted, and it'll get glue today. I'm really starting to fall hard for these Testors metallics. They look incredible, and the shades are suspiciously close to what's on the 11' original...



















And finally, it has begun -- baby steps, in scale with the 1/350 kit so I can just use my calipers for exact measurements...










When it's done, I'll make a thread for it (that'll be a while, though).

I'm almost ready to hit all the remaining hull pieces with hull color, and sub-assemblies are nearly done. After hull color, it's (GULP!) OD masks and livery, and then...

HOIST THE MAINSAIL!! JIGGLE THE JIB!! POOP ON THE POOP DECK! 
I get to clear the decks for the electronics -- phase two! (Phase one was underpants. Phase two: ? Phase three is profit!!)


----------



## asalaw

Got the bottom saucer re-primed, and I'm painting it slowly -- my compressor keeps overheating, since I'm going slowly in small sections. Pix of that tomorrow.

Meanwhile -- YIKES! A window out of alignment!!










So I plugged with with some sprue and cement, and I'm giving the weld overnight to dry; tried drilling it too soon and it subsided, so I pushed it back in place and gave it some more cement, and left it alone like I should have in the first place. 










Meanwhile, I got almost all the livery on the saucer top, and the rust arc done. I'll probably do the registry tomorrow, since I'm letting the arc dry thoroughly before I put any tape over it. And also I'm chickens**t. 

Here's the pix, and the Citadel shades I used to do the arc. The arc will get a misting of hull color tonight or tomorrow, since I think it's too heavy right now.


----------



## asalaw

And I've had my first disaster! Yay! (Not really. But Yay!)

I ruined my NCC-1701 OD mask, and I've had to go with the decals for the top saucer registry. I'm bummed, but I (re-)learned an important lesson: When you start getting tired, TAKE A BREAK. My mistake happend entirely because I lost focus from fatigue. I put the mask on beautifully, but in the wrong place, and those things don't survive removal very well, even with the transfer film.

Good news, though, is the kit's decals are excellent. I have no idea why people are reporting their decals falling apart, unless they're bathing them in decal set before applying them, or dousing them in it afterwards. That stuff is meant to weaken decals so they hug the surface and then firm up again, but it's not meant to be on there _while you're still moving them around_, because guess what -- the set makes them _very fragile_!

So, tips (like the name of the thread says):

1. Cut them as closely as possible. This reduces the chances of silvering just by removing the border material that silvers. Do this or go mad trying to fix the silvering later.

2. Soak them in warm water, using self-closing tweezers to hold them. That way you won't go mad chasing them around the bowl when they fall off the paper.

3. Wet the surface of the model with _water_, not decal set (why are you paying for that? It's distilled white vinegar and water). Apply the decal, keep it wet, and scoot it around with a wet paintbrush, _not a toothpick_. That way you won't go mad from tearing your decal with a toothpick.

4. When the decal is finally in place, dab it gently with a paper towel, let it dry, then apply the decal set (or just steal a bottle of Summer's Eve from your wife).  Allow to dry thoroughly, and out of your view. Sometimes some formulations (like the old-school Testors) can wrinkle the decals, then make them flat again. Best not witness this, so you don't go mad.

5. This is tedious business, so you'll go mad anyway. Sorry.


----------



## asalaw

Wow. Okay, the saucer top is finished, but I've completely lost my objectivity. I am unable to say whether I'm happy with the weathering. I know it looks like the photos (more or less), but I can't decide whether that's good or bad. I'm gonna have to step away from this project for a few days and come back with fresh eyes. Hopefully fresher than other parts of me that haven't aged so well. 

This also happens in the editing room, BTW. We were warned about it in film school, and I've been through it on short films. Sooner or later, you work on something so long you just can't tell whether it's any good. Also, your eyes feel like they're floating in their sockets. I'm not sure if it's project fatigue or paint fumes... 










Oil washes, BTW.


----------



## Milton Fox Racing

My Mother taught me to turn things over to get a new perspective - mostly when proof reading, but it works with photos, too!


----------



## Steve H

You know, it's one of those fascinating things to speculate just what is implied with the weathering. What forces created what we see.


----------



## Skyking918

Steve H said:


> You know, it's one of those fascinating things to speculate just what is implied with the weathering. What forces created what we see.


Dried slime from that giant one-celled organism, perhaps?


----------



## asalaw

Flew through a space sewer. The green stuff is Klingon... cling-ons. 

Oh, I had an insight about decal silvering. I noticed that on the very tiny parts that were still silvering at the edges, there was air trapped under the decal. Wherever the decal was perfectly flat, there was no silvering. I'm thinking light from underneath is what we see when decals go silver.

Then again, my other theory is that Kubrick faked the moon landing but insisted on shooting the real location.


----------



## The_Engineer

I always had a bit of a problem with weathering on Star Trek. Ships always get a cleaning of their hulls to remove barnacles and other materials and sometimes a new paint job afterwards. I can see the same type of treatment done on spaceships when they need servicing. On Star Trek, we see ships pulling into spacedocks to undergo maintenance & repair (or upgrades), so why not the cleaning of space gunk off their hulls???


----------



## robn1

asalaw said:


> ...Oh, I had an insight about decal silvering. I noticed that on the very tiny parts that were still silvering at the edges, there was air trapped under the decal. Wherever the decal was perfectly flat, there was no silvering. I'm thinking light from underneath is what we see when decals go silver...


That's exactly what it is, spots where the film doesn't contact the surface. A smooth (gloss) finish and a good setting solution help.





The_Engineer said:


> I always had a bit of a problem with weathering on Star Trek. Ships always get a cleaning of their hulls to remove barnacles and other materials and sometimes a new paint job afterwards...


I've seen large planes and Navy ships up close, even watched the Nimitz pull into port, and they always looked fake to me. So clean and perfect, with nothing to give them scale other than knowing they were the real deal. The weathering and panel lines etc. may be fake, but they look fake without them.


----------



## Steve H

asalaw said:


> Flew through a space sewer. The green stuff is Klingon... cling-ons.
> 
> Oh, I had an insight about decal silvering. I noticed that on the very tiny parts that were still silvering at the edges, there was air trapped under the decal. Wherever the decal was perfectly flat, there was no silvering. I'm thinking light from underneath is what we see when decals go silver.
> 
> Then again, my other theory is that Kubrick faked the moon landing but insisted on shooting the real location.


Exactly right, about the silvering at least. 

That's why many people glosscoat, then decal, then lay on the flat finish, or semi-gloss. It's the little bumps and pits in the paint surface that creates the 'flat' appearance, and that's what can trap air.

It would be interesting to compare a kit painted with flats and untouched Vs. a kit painted in flats, glosscoated and then dulling applied. It makes me think there should be a difference. 

This was one of the reasons, I suspect, Micro Sol was invented. Not only to get decals to conform to bumps and curves, but to really snuggle it down on untreated flat paint. Back in my heyday of armor building (so much panzer gray and olive drab!) I don't recall anyone glosscoating their tank kits before decals. Other tricks-poking the decal with a needle, hand painting markings- were the rule of the day. I'm rather happy to say that kits I built 40 years ago (!!!!!) have no silvering. But man, I wish I hadn't been so lazy with using the same shade of OD Green. Never thought about it back then. Mark that up to another case of "If I knew then what I know now", huh? 

Actually, this is relevant to Asalaw's work. I was focused on matching the OD Green I saw on real tanks in my area (you know, park and VA and National Guard Armory vehicles on display) and so I wanted to match what I saw. But I didn't figure for scale (who did?), nor did I take hard use and exposure to weather and sun, all my weathering tended to 'use' such as road grime and mud, but no fading. My focus and knowledge was too narrow. Again, if I knew then what I know now.


----------



## Skyking918

Steve H said:


> Exactly right, about the silvering at least.
> 
> That's why many people glosscoat, then decal, then lay on the flat finish, or semi-gloss. It's the little bumps and pits in the paint surface that creates the 'flat' appearance, and that's what can trap air.
> 
> It would be interesting to compare a kit painted with flats and untouched Vs. a kit painted in flats, glosscoated and then dulling applied. It makes me think there should be a difference.


A gloss coat is unnecessary. The paint must be merely smooth, and not gloss. A microfiber cloth works well for smoothing paint prior to application of decals. Then apply MicroSet to the area, then the decal, and position it carefully with a wet paintbrush. Once the decal is in place, wick up the excess MicroSet with a paper towel, then apply MicroSol and watch it do its stuff. When the MicroSol is almost completely evaporated, PRESS down gently on the decal with a soft warm cloth. This contradicts the conventional wisdom, but it works.:surprise: Give the decals 24 hours to completely dry, then remove any residue with a moistened lint-free cotton swab, and apply your final clear coat of choice.

For a great decal tutorial, see here: 




And be sure to check out some of Paul's other videos.


----------



## Steve H

Excellent advice. I think, from all that I've read here, most people have gravitated to the 'shoot a coat of Future (acrylic floor 'wax') over the flat paint' method. I don't recall anyone buffing their build. That's an interesting process. Again, if I knew then.


----------



## nightspore

I was doing WWII armor and aircraft 50 years ago and couldn't live without MicroSol for decals, especially on German tanks with zimmerit. :smile2:




Steve H said:


> Exactly right, about the silvering at least.
> 
> That's why many people glosscoat, then decal, then lay on the flat finish, or semi-gloss. It's the little bumps and pits in the paint surface that creates the 'flat' appearance, and that's what can trap air.
> 
> It would be interesting to compare a kit painted with flats and untouched Vs. a kit painted in flats, glosscoated and then dulling applied. It makes me think there should be a difference.
> 
> This was one of the reasons, I suspect, Micro Sol was invented. Not only to get decals to conform to bumps and curves, but to really snuggle it down on untreated flat paint. Back in my heyday of armor building (so much panzer gray and olive drab!) I don't recall anyone glosscoating their tank kits before decals. Other tricks-poking the decal with a needle, hand painting markings- were the rule of the day. I'm rather happy to say that kits I built 40 years ago (!!!!!) have no silvering. But man, I wish I hadn't been so lazy with using the same shade of OD Green. Never thought about it back then. Mark that up to another case of "If I knew then what I know now", huh?
> 
> Actually, this is relevant to Asalaw's work. I was focused on matching the OD Green I saw on real tanks in my area (you know, park and VA and National Guard Armory vehicles on display) and so I wanted to match what I saw. But I didn't figure for scale (who did?), nor did I take hard use and exposure to weather and sun, all my weathering tended to 'use' such as road grime and mud, but no fading. My focus and knowledge was too narrow. Again, if I knew then what I know now.


----------



## Steve H

nightspore said:


> I was doing WWII armor and aircraft 50 years ago and couldn't live without MicroSol for decals, especially on German tanks with zimmerit. :smile2:


Exactly so! We NEVER considered glosscoating over the carefully applied flat paint! We did everything we could to get those decals to snuggle down AND WE LIKED IT! 

Kids today. 

Zimmerit: Squadron green putty scored by a X-Acto mini saw blade or did you use the broken popsicle stick method?


----------



## Milton Fox Racing

Putty! We made our own filler out of elmers glue and flour. Mom didnt mind us using her favorite butcher knife and someone always had some left over glidden house paint in the garage. :cheers2:


----------



## asalaw

Milton Fox Racing said:


> Putty! We made our own filler out of elmers glue and flour. Mom didnt mind us using her favorite butcher knife and someone always had some left over glidden house paint in the garage. :cheers2:


I love the Squadron puttys. You could've knocked me over with a feather when a demo video on their website said the green vs. white was just about subsequent painting -- green for darks, white for lights. Phenomenal stuff, dries fast and clings well like a proper lacquer based putty should. Of course, you can also use Bondo spot putty, though it's much less stiff, almost liquid. So I just use that on props and such -- fiberglass, etc. Probably also on my upcoming Galileo scratchbuild. Because fiberglass.


----------



## Trek Ace

I make my own putty for use with styrene plastic.

When dry, it can be sanded, filed, scribed, glued and painted just like the plastic that it is applied to.


----------



## Steve H

Trek Ace said:


> I make my own putty for use with styrene plastic.
> 
> When dry, it can be sanded, filed, scribed, glued and painted just like the plastic that it is applied to.


Have to be careful with it lest you accidentally melt the kit, but that's pretty obvious. 

Another old trick. Do you use the Testor's Liquid Cement (square bottle) or the more modern MEK based glues?

The Testor's worked well because of the bottle. maybe they don't make it that way anymore, with the square glass bottle. I'd be interested in trying to make some with Tamiya liquid but that stuff is too expensive and hard for me to get around here. 

I once tried the 'plastic chips in liquid cement' trick with Microweld but that stuff evaporated too quickly.


----------



## Steve H

asalaw said:


> I love the Squadron puttys. You could've knocked me over with a feather when a demo video on their website said the green vs. white was just about subsequent painting -- green for darks, white for lights. Phenomenal stuff, dries fast and clings well like a proper lacquer based putty should. Of course, you can also use Bondo spot putty, though it's much less stiff, almost liquid. So I just use that on props and such -- fiberglass, etc. Probably also on my upcoming Galileo scratchbuild. Because fiberglass.


Hey, has Squadron Green gotten better? I recall back in the old days it was common to thin it a little with Testor's Liquid cement. It tended to surface set pretty fast. Of course back then I probably applied it too thick for what I was doing. It did tend to dry out in the tube. So is it better?

I haven't played with the plastic putty too much other than to note that it helps to put a little water in the tube and massage it to keep it workable. The couple of times I used it it was really nice to be able to smooth the work with a damp paper towel, and remove any excess. So nice and clean!


----------



## Trek Ace

Steve H said:


> Do you use the Testor's Liquid Cement (square bottle) or the more modern MEK based glues?


Just plain old MEK + styrene sprue cut into 1/4" - 3/8" lengths.
Pour MEK into clean glass jar, add sprue bits to fill, place lid on and tighten.
Shake well. Let set overnight. Open and stir into putty. Add more glue or sprue to thin or thicken to desired consistency.

Disclaimer: For adults only. Use adequate ventilation and proper filtering apparatus when using MEK. Exposure may cause cancer in California. In other states, the probable outcomes may vary.

I've been using this successfully for many years. I will also use bondo, spot putty, Squadron putty, and epoxy putty depending upon material, size and subject matter. For styrene, this is my go-to source - and it's cheap.


----------



## asalaw

Steve H said:


> Hey, has Squadron Green gotten better? I recall back in the old days it was common to thin it a little with Testor's Liquid cement. It tended to surface set pretty fast. Of course back then I probably applied it too thick for what I was doing. It did tend to dry out in the tube. So is it better?


 Yeah, any lacquer-based putty needs to go on very thin, because lacquer.  I find it excellent. They're apparently both the same formula, just colored differently.



Trek Ace said:


> Just plain old MEK + styrene sprue cut into 1/4" - 3/8" lengths.
> Pour MEK into clean glass jar, add sprue bits to fill, place lid on and tighten.
> Shake well. Let set overnight. Open and stir into putty. Add more glue or sprue to thin or thicken to desired consistency.
> 
> Disclaimer: For adults only. Use adequate ventilation and proper filtering apparatus when using MEK. Exposure may cause cancer in California. In other states, the probable outcomes may vary.
> 
> I've been using this successfully for many years. I will also use bondo, spot putty, Squadron putty, and epoxy putty depending upon material, size and subject matter. For styrene, this is my go-to source - and it's cheap.


MEK -- methyl ethyl ketone? [yep -- just read up on it. when my current stocks run out, I'm going to be replacing a few things with cheaper same things.  ]

Okay, break's over. Back to the Enterprise, having taken a pause to paint Scotty's face and hands. Love the Archer eye decals! 


























Not sure why the highlighting in the hair isn't reading in the photos, but it's there.


----------



## asalaw

So on the bright side, the weathered saucer is growing on me. Really starting to like it. On the down side, my wife was hit in my car by a hit-and-run jerkwad and has a sprained ankle, and my car is totaled. So I had to take today off work and, you know, deal with stuff. But on the bright side, I got Scotty's torso nearly done. Future coated and ready for final touchups. Painting is getting easier. The hard part was chopping him up in the first place. Them Aberdeen pub crawlers put up quite a squawk! 

Back to the E this weekend -- finishing the hull coat on the lower saucer and hopefully other parts too.


----------



## Steve H

Geeze, sorry about your car but that's some 'watching over you' stuff if the car is totaled and all she got was a sprained ankle. 

Stuff can be replaced. Life can't.


----------



## asalaw

Steve H said:


> Geeze, sorry about your car but that's some 'watching over you' stuff if the car is totaled and all she got was a sprained ankle.
> 
> Stuff can be replaced. Life can't.


Thanks, Steve.  She was just entering a turn when they hit, so she wasn't going very fast. The airbag didn't deploy, so she was well below 40 mph. That said, you're absolutely right -- it's only a car. Still got my lady.


----------



## Milton Fox Racing

Glad to hear the Missus isnt injuried to badly! :cheers2:


----------



## Skyking918

asalaw said:


> On the down side, my wife was hit in my car by a hit-and-run jerkwad and has a sprained ankle, and my car is totaled. So I had to take today off work and, you know, deal with stuff.


You're an attorney. You know how to "deal with stuff." > Glad to hear the wife is okay.


----------



## asalaw

Well, finally some good news. I got the saucer bottom painted without melting my compressor! Yay! Gotta get me a tank.










And Scotty's torso is done -- time to move on to his arms!


----------



## asalaw

Next!

Back to the E in earnest now.


----------



## asalaw

Okay!! Mixed bag of quality this time, but the results are good and I learned something.

Started out putting down the OD mask, after several attempts to line it up properly.


















Masked it in all around and gave it the red stuff I mixed...










And here's where my problem began --

I remasked for the yellow arrowhead too soon, and went right ahead and shot it on...










But since I didn't let the red paint dry, the remask left gum behind.










Cleaned it up with mineral spirits, which got the gum without harming the acrylic paint (good reason to pick acrylics over enamels). Left behind some prodigious yuck.










First round of touchups. Gonna set this aside till next time, finish touching this up, and lay those frame member decals on there. Yay!










Now I can go do the hero side without screwing it up. At least not _this_ way.


----------



## whereisanykey

What I use for this purpose is Scraft Artise Washi Masking Tape. It's about as low tack as you can get. The only drawback I find is there isn't much selection for different widths.

Greg


----------



## asalaw

whereisanykey said:


> What I use for this purpose is Scraft Artise Washi Masking Tape. It's about as low tack as you can get. The only drawback I find is there isn't much selection for different widths.
> 
> Greg


It's not my tape, there's a secondary vinyl mask that you use to cover the red bits when you paint the yellow. I just didn't wait for the paint to fully dry first. The vinyl didn't leave behind any gum anywhere else and my tape never does. In fact, I covered the rear of the stripe with my tape for this, and nothing happened.

The tape I use is this yellow RC stuff I get from my LHS for $2.98 a roll, fantastic stuff, never lifts paint or leaves gum. Great edges. Love it. I'll post the name next time I go.


----------



## asalaw

I know, I know. I'm such a liar...


----------



## Skyking918

asalaw said:


> It's not my tape, there's a secondary vinyl mask that you use to cover the red bits when you paint the yellow. I just didn't wait for the paint to fully dry first. The vinyl didn't leave behind any gum anywhere else and my tape never does. In fact, I covered the rear of the stripe with my tape for this, and nothing happened.
> 
> The tape I use is this yellow RC stuff I get from my LHS for $2.98 a roll, fantastic stuff, never lifts paint or leaves gum. Great edges. Love it. I'll post the name next time I go.


Drafting tape is good, too, if you can still find it. What's "drafting tape," you ask? It's a low-tack tape that we used to secure paper or vellum to drawing boards when using T-squares and triangles and ruling pens in the pre-CAD days of yore.


----------



## asalaw

Skyking918 said:


> Drafting tape is good, too, if you can still find it. What's "drafting tape," you ask? It's a low-tack tape that we used to secure paper or vellum to drawing boards when using T-squares and triangles and ruling pens in the pre-CAD days of yore.


What's a pen? 

They carry drafting tape at Michael's, but it's expensive.


----------



## Skyking918

asalaw said:


> They carry drafting tape at Michael's, but it's expensive.


But it'll last nearly forever if stored properly. I had a roll of Scotch drafting tape I bought while in college some 45 years ago, and over the next 35 years it moved with me from Texas to Kentucky to Connecticut to Ohio to Oklahoma until I used it all, and at the end it was still almost as good as it was the day I bought it.


----------



## Trek Ace

asalaw said:


> What's a pen?


It's something that is rumored to be mightier than the sword.

Even so, I never once saw Errol Flynn fighting with one.


----------



## asalaw

Hey guys, update -- I'm slammed at work and slammed at home, not sure when I'm getting back to my E. It may be another month or so. Sucks.


----------



## JGG1701

Yes, life does get the way most times.
Don't feel alone in this. Many of us have the same issues. Priorities before hobbies.?
-Jim G.G.


----------



## bholcomb007

Asalaw, or anyone, I am looking to match the accents to a color (the dark gray accents) and since we have not heard from Gary about the color mixes to get the colors I was going to attempt to do so myself. For a base I got RAF Dark Sea Gray...that being said how close do you think that is and should I lighten it a bit or darken it? In addition, I was wondering what color combo you have used for the turbo lift green?

Thanks in advance gentlemen!

Ben


----------



## asalaw

bholcomb007 said:


> Asalaw, or anyone, I am looking to match the accents to a color (the dark gray accents) and since we have not heard from Gary about the color mixes to get the colors I was going to attempt to do so myself. For a base I got RAF Dark Sea Gray...that being said how close do you think that is and should I lighten it a bit or darken it? In addition, I was wondering what color combo you have used for the turbo lift green?
> 
> Thanks in advance gentlemen!
> 
> Ben


I don't know what to do with that RAF color, but here's the link to the Tamiya formulas I posted for the gray accents: http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/99-sc...ise-building-tips-tricks-137.html#post6227978 These are very close matches to the accent gray color chips called out by the Smithsonian, which are exact matches to the model (I kid you not -- I checked).

The turbolift color I matched to was Testors SAC Bomber Green, #1993, which I then lightened about 15% with flat white. That's just a guess based on the Smithsonian description. They call out the FS color that the Testors paint matches to, and then say the actual color is lighter and I think less green, IIRC.


----------



## bholcomb007

Cool, I will look into that mix. I normally use Model Masters enamel and I know you can get the Tamaya in enamel as well. I may try and do a mix with the RAF Dark Sea Gray and see how close I can come as well...I definitely will be checking out the green for the Turbo Lift Green. Here is one of the dark accent pieces in the plastic color against the RAF color below:


----------



## Milton Fox Racing

If you want to stay with testors and enamel try model masters engine grey. They also have an acrylic grimy black. They have never been good at consistent batch shades so you can probably get close with either. :cheers2:


----------



## bholcomb007

Thanks Milton! I looked it up and it is very close...I am sure I can work with that. I have never really done much mixing to try and get a specific color because I have never needed to try and get close to something like this, but I believe it is time to start learning that skill.


----------



## bholcomb007

Well after finally getting some time in the shop I have the saucer bottom done and curing so I can start on the electronics FINALLY! The top saucer needs sanding and one more coat. Excited to finally get some time to work on it. Will post another shot after I get the bottom saucer wired up. Waiting on some more paint to get the secondary hull finished and I will start wiring it up as well. Exciting times ahead!


----------



## bholcomb007

One more quick question to you experts! Do you think it a good idea to go ahead and do a clear coat on the saucer bottom before I start putting in the electronics to protect the paint coat from getting rubbed off? I figure I need to put one on anyway before applying the decals at some time so what are your thoughts?

Ben


----------



## RossW

Clear coat is always a good idea to protect your work thus far.


----------



## asalaw

RossW said:


> Clear coat is always a good idea to protect your work thus far.


I second that. I've had great results on my E doing that. And clear coat after they've properly set. Just FYI, I've had better results with the Testors acrylic flat clear (in the bottle) than with the Dullcote, in that the latter has been leaving a satiny finish after several coats. The former is dead flat first time. But I've also seen lots of posts claiming great results from Dullcote, so YMMV.


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## bholcomb007

Thanks, gentlemen!
That is what I will do!
Oh, and Aslaw, I have the Model Masters straight clear coat, not the dullcoat. So I am with you there!
Ok it is settled I will do a clear coat over it after it cures...

Thanks again!

Ben


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## bholcomb007

Finally got some time to work on it yesterday for the lower saucer lighting. Happy to say I have it done! Now after doing my Honey Do list for today I should have some time to start working on the upper saucer and the bridge. I do have one question, I need to know the color of the impulse engines so I can tint the clear part to get an accurate representation for them. Does anyone have, or can point me to, an image of the production impulse engine color so I can replicate it?

Thanks for all the help!

Ben


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## MartyS

bholcomb007 said:


> I do have one question, I need to know the color of the impulse engines so I can tint the clear part to get an accurate representation for them. Does anyone have, or can point me to, an image of the production impulse engine color so I can replicate it?


If you want the impulse engines accurate you would paint the rectangles black. They were never lit during the show. I think it was during the run of the animated series that they first showed the red glow of those engines.

I put the photo-etch grills on mine, flipped the clear part over to give some room between the grills and the clear plastic, sanded both sides to diffuse the light, oh and painted the white LEDs clear red. So it looks black when off, red when on.


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## bholcomb007

I was about to have to go to some footage to check on that! Hmmm...Makes me think now I need a separate switch to turn them on and off for each effect.

Thanks for the input...more to consider before the final wiring and closing up of the saucer!

Ben


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## bholcomb007

Well made a screw-up on the lower saucer! I put the colored starboard and port lights in on it and realized after looking again they are white! JOY! Had to take them out and get the clears coated to put them in. LOL I realized only the top lights are colored with the red and green.....well back to cleaning up my mess...again!

Ben


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## Milton Fox Racing

If at first you dont succeed...


...oh look its break time! :cheers2:


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## MartyS

I looked at your picture and didn't even notice the colors there, yup, those should be clear...


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## asalaw

Made a little progress -- the middle ring is too dark, but I'm leaving it like that. I'm trying to get this thing done already. I've also ditched the masks and I'm finishing with decals, which go on much faster and can be repositioned until they're right. So far so good. I did the red pennants with the masks, though -- I'll post shots later. I'm itching to get to the electronics!


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## bholcomb007

Sweet!
Looking good sir!


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## asalaw

Bad news, guys -- all of my Dropbox-hosted photos are going to vanish on Sept. 1 because they're changing their whole scheme. I don't know when or if I'll have time to repost more than a few of them, so if you want them, now's the time to download them. Sorry about the inconvenience, folks -- and thanks a lot for nothing, Dropbox.


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## asalaw

Ready for electronics at last!


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## Milton Fox Racing

asalaw said:


> Bad news, guys -- all of my Dropbox-hosted photos are going to vanish on Sept. 1 because they're changing their whole scheme. I don't know when or if I'll have time to repost more than a few of them, so if you want them, now's the time to download them. Sorry about the inconvenience, folks -- and thanks a lot for nothing, Dropbox.


Bummer, if you want you can download them into a member album here at HobbyTalk and then relink them into your posts as time allows. :cheers2:


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## asalaw

Plugging along...


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## Skyking918

Not seeing anything but a gray circle with a white horizontal bar through it.


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## asalaw

Skyking918 said:


> Not seeing anything but a gray circle with a white horizontal bar through it.


Looks like I can't rely on Google hosting, either...

I'll figure something out.


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## Milton Fox Racing

asalaw said:


> Looks like I can't rely on Google hosting, either...
> 
> I'll figure something out.


On the last two posts - you inserted the google _page_ image reference link and not the url _image_ link to the photo image file address. Not sure how you access that in Google, but you have it the right way in the previous post of 17 Aug.

:cheers2:


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## asalaw

I can't get this to work. I'll revisit after 9/1 and see what I can do with Dropbox then.


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## Milton Fox Racing

I understood that Dropbox was changing to the pay to play status in Sept as well....

...maybe it already started?


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## asalaw

Milton Fox Racing said:


> I understood that Dropbox was changing to the pay to play status in Sept as well....
> 
> ...maybe it already started?


I've always paid for dropbox, $9.99/mo for 1TB.

My build is at a halt anyway. My saucer PCB is defective. I've contacted R2 for a replacement. :frown2:


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## Skyking918

Have there really been NO posts in this thread since August 2017????!


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## bholcomb007

It appears so...


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## Hobby Dude

I think Polar Lights made the ncc-1701a in that large scale, good job bro!


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