# TOS nacelle



## jwrjr (Oct 31, 2003)

I've been working on an ACCURATE warp nacelle chaser for the TOS Enterprise. Got the software all written. It simulates perfectly. Then I discover that I've written it for a chip that my programmer does not support. AAARRRGGGHHH!!! I've ordered a new programmer, which will arrive ... eventually. They say that patience is good for you. Dear Lord give me patience ... RIGHT NOW.


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## KUROK (Feb 2, 2004)

Cool. Keep us posted and show pics when you have a prototype, please!


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## Steven Coffey (Jan 5, 2005)

Can't wait to buy a set !


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## jwrjr (Oct 31, 2003)

Thanks for the support. I don't see a way to make this for the PL Enterprise (how can I fit 10 leds in that nacelle?), but for AMT or some hypothetical 1/350 ship, no problem.


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## veedubb67 (Jul 11, 2003)

jwrjr said:


> I don't see a way to make this for the PL Enterprise (how can I fit 10 leds in that nacelle?), but for AMT or some hypothetical 1/350 ship, no problem.


How 'bout running fiber up to the nacelles instead? You could leave the LEDs in the body.


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## jwrjr (Oct 31, 2003)

Is there room to run 10 optical fibers up each of those struts without weakening them?


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## GLU Sniffah (Apr 15, 2005)

jwrjr said:


> Is there room to run 10 optical fibers up each of those struts without weakening them?


 Do you have a test mule?

I wonder if a person wouldn't be better off building entirely new struts just slightly thicker to accommodate FO arrayed ten flat.

FO comes in differen thicknesses, doesn't it, like wire guage? 

I imagine the struts would be the lesser of the two problems, the first being the pylon thickness, the second would be figuring out how to diffuse the light coming from the FO ends in order to simulate the chaser effect you designed to use direct LED lighting.

Interesting set of problems.


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## veedubb67 (Jul 11, 2003)

You can diffuse the light from a fiber optic strand by "mushrooming" the end a bit. Just heat it up and press it against something. If that doesn't work, maybe a piece of crazed clear sytrene.


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## Ignatz (Jun 20, 2000)

You might be able to fit 10 surface mounted LEDs in there. Tight fit on the circuitry though. Might be worth a shot. Get out the tweezers! I'd be interested in checking out a set for the venerable 18" kit. Any sort of idea on the pricing?


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## jwrjr (Oct 31, 2003)

I might be able to get the leds inside PL nacelles if I got printed circuit boards made. Not otherwise. My plans are for modules like the ones that I make for the NX (but a little larger). That is to say that the modules would be preassembled so that the modeler would only have to attach 2 power wires. There are definitely port and starboard units (not interchangeable). The price should be at or near $80 for the pair.


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

what about this idea: you could place the 10 led's down the length of each nacelle, then have optic fibers of correponding lengths running from them up to the dome in front. edit: the chip would have to be placed in the nacelle as well, otherwise you'd have a bunch of wires running up the strut. 

quick sketch below:

is this feasable?


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## portland182 (Jul 19, 2003)

Do all 10 LEDs need to be on simultaneously?
You could use less LEDs and more fibre optics!

Jim


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## jwrjr (Oct 31, 2003)

Razorwyre has an interesting idea, but there are two problems with it. 1. optical fiber has a minimum bend radius (sort of like a garden hose, and for the same reason). 2. I expect to have to make these so that a good modeler can install it.
Answer to portland182 - of the 10 leds, 4 of them fade on and off - all at different rates and the other 6 flash on and off at 5 different rates. The number of leds can't be reduced below 9 - not much help there.


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## spe130 (Apr 13, 2004)

Can't you heat optical fiber to get a tighter bend? Seems I remember reading something about that in discussions of starship windows.


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## TrekFX (Apr 15, 2004)

Since you're going where this man has boldly wanted to go, but hasn't for various reasons...

Are you making accomodations for simulating the more "rounded" waveform of the incandescent Christmas tree lights actually used, versus the ubiquitous "square wave" output used in just about every LED circuit offered?

If you're using a microprocessor, it will take some programming but will make a world of difference. Analog, maybe an R/C network to shape the output pulses going to the LEDs.

I agree with the surface-mount suggestion, but then you hit the problem of getting the lights to sit up *inside* the dome where they belong, as the original Christmas lights were apparently wrapped around nails to get them off the base plane of the hemispheres.

We should talk... !

As far as fiber-optics, I tried that trick with my TOS nacelle prototype, but it gets very labor-intensive.

http://members.aol.com/trekfx/LightSheet_Systems/1_1000_E.mov

It was getting there... but no cigar. The "fan" effect is the true test of nailing this simulation, and it's very hard to duplicate a mechanical effect without using... a mechanism! The multi-colored blinkies looked pretty good, but that FAN... ! Very hard to do in 1/1000 (or 1/12 if you're making a model of the model.) I've got decent motors that fit, but then there's almost no room for electronics for the lights. Catch-22.

There are some *really* nice gear motors out there with proper RPM. They're about the size of a cigarette butt, but they cost like $75-$100 each. :wave:


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

These are the some of the very things that I am still working on with one of my 1/12 scale dioramas of the effects stage. I have replaced the solid plastic struts with hollow metal ones that allow for internal wiring and mechanisms to be included. But, you practically need to be a Swiss watch maker to deal with the intricacy of this scale. Plus, I only have a few precious hours per month to dedicate to these projects, so that draws the time out even further. Even at my age, my eyesight is still sharp and my hands are steady - which helps a great deal!


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## jwrjr (Oct 31, 2003)

TrekFX - I hadn't thought of the 'soft' switching of the leds, but I can do that without much trouble. I will need to use a more expensive processor (i.e. with more program storage), but not by all that much. You illustrate why I started this thread with your idea. You thought of something that I hadn't. This helps me to make the project better.
TrekAce - I've done what you describe before in 2 ways. When I lighted the TOS from the old AMT 3 ship set, I made new struts using rectangular brass tubing. For almost all of the Enterprises I run brass tubing inside the struts to strengthen the joints. This wouldn't work for the 1701D, obviously.


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## TrekFX (Apr 15, 2004)

Do you have a plan to replicate the "spinning fan?"

May as well spill some secrets since I'm on hiatus for a while.

http://www.culttvman.com/mike_warshaw_s_lighted_enterpr.html

http://www.culttvman.com/assets/warshawenterprise.mov

For this AMT 18" E system. I used a stationary transparent Plastruct acrylic dome with spokes applied, mounted behind the outer Plastruct dome which was frosted inside and out. Rather than spin the dome with a mechanism, I had a second ring of LEDs that just sequenced rapidly in a circle, projecting shadows onto the outer dome that created the illusion of a moving fan. At the time, I didn't round off the pulses, but doing so would have improved the effect. I also didn't have the benefit of blue LEDs at the time to create a more varied pallette in the "blinkies."

While the LEDs create a bit of an oversized spot compared to the original's tree lights, I was able to get them up into the dome with spacers, and I think that helps sell the look. But combining the sequencer (just an analog 4017 setup... well, dual 4017s per nacelle sharing a common 557 clock) with a mechanism as used here

http://www.culttvman.com/kyu-woong_lee_s_lighted_22__en1.html

would have been pretty sweet!

A note about the fan spokes: they were not wedge-shaped vanes. They are straight spokes. Any appearance of a wedge shape was created by motion and camera blur. Trust me, I've stared at frame grabs and done enough image-stacking to make my eyeballs fall out. My guess is that they used strips of tape on a clear inner dome. They were, after all on a budget.

There were twelve spokes. They terminated towards the center at the point where they just about touched, creating a "clear" circle punctuated by the hub "dot" created by the motor shaft and dome mounting hardware.

I'm not completely sure about this next thing, but some of my stacked grabs almost look like there are finer spokes connecting the main spokes to the center hub. Trying to put myself in the mindset of the FX guys, could they have been thinking along the line of helicopter rotors?

There also appears to be at least two variations of the arrangement of the tree lights. One appears completely random, and one seems to have a group of 5 lights in a "star" pattern that pulses combined with a number of random lights.

Now I know why I put this away! :freak: :thumbsup:


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

The lights are 5 on steady and 5 flashers in each nacelle. There should be no spots.

There were mirror fragments located behind the lights, attached at random angles to effectively bounce the light around between the mirrors and the shiny backsides of the conical spinning metal "blades", therefore creating a rather spectacular effect of random, colored flashes of light and pulsating energy that changed with every degree of rotation. This resulted in the projected shadows of the spinning blades on the frosted domes sometimes appearing to "snake", or subtley twist and bend while they rotated, due to the many secondary reflections of light randomly catching them from various angles.

The closest approach I can compare this to is a police car "light bar" that uses spinning lights and a bank of angled, stationary mirrors to redirect the spinning lights in a spectacular, random multiple-flashing effect.


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## jwrjr (Oct 31, 2003)

TrekFX - since you are making my life difficult (not meant seriously), I'm going to ask you to help simplify things. 12 spokes - wide or narrow (or better yet, guesstimate as a proportion of spoke compared with clear area). What speed in RPM was the 'fan' moving? Were there blinking lights? Which ones? How fast?
The soft turn on/turn off will not be a problem.


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## jwrjr (Oct 31, 2003)

I've looked at the video that TrekFX mentions, and I have one last question. Do we have general agreement that this is the definitive effect for me to simulate electronically? The flasher pattern is no problem, even with the 'soft' turn-on and turn-off. Adding a 'spoke' effect can be done. But I don't want to have to replicate this and have somebody come along later saying 'no, you didn't do it right.'


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## Cloudwalker (Sep 25, 2004)

Isn't it funny? Out of all the special effects created for starships, the one we have the most trouble recreating, is the one made on a shoestring budget in the 1960s.

You two are doing some awesome work, though. Keep it up.


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## jwrjr (Oct 31, 2003)

I'm glad that you like what we build. Thhe biggest problem that I find for translating big-screen SFX (or even TV-screen size) to model size is, in effect, just that.They have (had?) a much bigger model to work with. But we have better technology.


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## Ignatz (Jun 20, 2000)

Hey, if you can simulate Mike's Warp effect, I'll be up for it! I'd be interested in fitting it into the 18" and the 22" Enterprise models.


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## jwrjr (Oct 31, 2003)

Where can I find a video of this Warp effect?


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## TrekFX (Apr 15, 2004)

Links are in post #18 above... :wave: This was a system I designed in about 1995/1996.

Here's another test from a couple years back for a 1/1000 (or 1/12 if you prefer!) system for the Polar Lights kit:

http://members.aol.com/trekfx/LightSheet_Systems/1_1000_E.mov

Nothing fancy, just fiddly. Still wasn't satisfied with the fan and the blinkies aren't 100% to the original, but it becomes a matter of diminishing returns at this size and it almost becomes more important to capture the "spirit" or intent of the effect than copy it exactly. :freak:


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## jwrjr (Oct 31, 2003)

Does anybody know where I can find a 5 - 10 second view of a warp nacelle from the front end? I have a couple of different simulations programmed and I need to determine which one looks the best. Thanks.


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

The one that comes immediately to mind would be in the second season episode titled _Metamorphosis_.

In it, there is a head-on shot of the _Enterprise_ where you can easily see the effects that I described in detail earlier. I believe it is in the second half of the show and is several seconds long.

Another good shot is the "over the shoulder" shot of the _Enterprise_ rear saucer/engine pods looking toward the wrecked _Constellation_ in _The Doomsday Machine._

There are also some shots in the late second and third seasons of a low angle of the ship looking up with the engine lights blinking but the "fans" are not spinning. Some of these shots are phaser fire, some are stationary and some are traveling.


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## RossW (Jan 12, 2000)

There's also the opening scene of 'The Tholian Web' that shows the engines in fairly good detail ...


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## jwrjr (Oct 31, 2003)

Thanks again. I'll check those episodes out.


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## jwrjr (Oct 31, 2003)

Turns out that neither one looks much like the video. Looks like I'll have to come up with a better one. (Sigh.) Well, better that I found out about it before releasing it.


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## Ignatz (Jun 20, 2000)

Looking forward to whatever you come up with. Was your effect even close? Could it be used for other federation ships? I'd love to see what it looks like!

I've got the VoodooFX nacelle light for PL's Enterprise. It doesn't duplicate the effect very closely either, but it's really nice having something going on in there other than a static red LED.


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## jwrjr (Oct 31, 2003)

In the past I've always just used a chaser running fast enough so that it looks like all of the lights are on while giving the effect of rotation. I am now trying to do better. The hard part now is that from the bow, the nacelle looks exactly like what is really is - lights with opaque spokes rotating in front of them. Simulating the spokes without using anything mechanical is proving to be a challenge.


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

My advice would be to just do the lights and not worry about the mechanics of the spinner. Leave that up to the modeler to solve. Just leave a clear center hole in the disc that holds the LED's and some space behind for a shaft and call it good.


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## Ignatz (Jun 20, 2000)

Here's a couple of random thoughts: I wonder if it would help to have the simulated rotation change speed over a short span of time, oscillating between a faster rotation and a slower one,say over a 5 second span. Would that help simulate the effect as seen on TV of the spinning vanes and the camera shutter? Maybe the vanes could be duplicated with a piece of wire or photo etch in the shape similar to wagon wheel spokes. Maybe a vacuformed plastic hemisphere with striping tape? or some kind of decal of the spokes?


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## Y3a (Jan 18, 2001)

The motors in the small RC airplane servos are perfect for rotating the spinning insides of the nacelle. You can get them wholesale. Same goes for the vibrator/motors used in pagers.


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## mactrek (Mar 30, 2004)

Y3a said:


> ... Same goes for the vibrator/motors used in pagers.


Just what exactly _are_ you planning to do with your Enterprise Model??? 

No ... On Second thought ... Don't tell me. I don't think I want to know. :freak:


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## jwrjr (Oct 31, 2003)

Sorry guys. If I can't do it all electronically, I will no do it at all. Having said that, I expect that the solution should lend itself to a smaller 'not exactly right but looks right' version. Say, something the right size for the 1/1000 PL version.


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## mactrek (Mar 30, 2004)

jwrjr said:


> Sorry guys. If I can't do it all electronically, I will no do it at all. Having said that, I expect that the solution should lend itself to a smaller 'not exactly right but looks right' version. Say, something the right size for the 1/1000 PL version.


My experience with your work suggests that your idea of 'not exactly right but looks right' is usually dead on the money for the rest of us. 

I have faith in you ... oh master of things that go blink on 12 volts DC! 
:thumbsup:


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## Heavens Eagle (Jun 30, 2003)

Hey jwrjr, if you can send me a layout of how your LEDs need to set, how they are wired and colors, I will find some parts and work up a layout for the 1/1000 E nacelle. I have done some very small layouts (can we say 132 pin quad flat pack micros with memory). I have the software to do this and generate up files that any good board manufacturing company could use. I have also built hand made (my hands) prototypes of surface mount boards. I just need some basic input to do so. Just send me a PM.


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## jwrjr (Oct 31, 2003)

mactrek: Knowing that you (all) expect accuracy from me is what keeps me honest (grin).
Heavens Eagle: Interesting idea. We are looking at either 10 leds (red, blue, green, orange, and yellow) or 12 leds (red, yellow, and green), all in either a 0805 or 0603 packages in a ring. The cpu, voltage regulator, and 10 (or 12) resistors are on a separate board. I should settle the number of leds within the next day or 2.


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## jwrjr (Oct 31, 2003)

Sorry to take so long to get back to this. I've had computer problems. Preliminary finding - to me it looks like a 10 light array behind a 12-spoke rotating 'wheel' rotating @ 0.5 rpm. The lights definitely look like they are in groups rather than all flashing individually. I'll keep looking until I can define the pattern.


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## Heavens Eagle (Jun 30, 2003)

Those chip sizes should be no problem. I think the 0805 package is what you will want to be using. The 0605 is really too small for most folks to handle. I am quite good with chip parts, and the 0805 is about as small as is realistic.

I think it will be possible to do twelve 0805 packages on the circuit board. I will be tight, but I think it is doable. The trick is to keep the lands as small as possible in addition to the parts. Just need a circuit and basic layout pattern. I have several of the tos E kit to work out size and mountings.

I should be able to work out a way to do a few prototypes as well. As these are hand made, it will only be a very few. I can then look into the tooling and board costs.

The initial tooling will probably be stiff. I can cut some of that cost since I have the software and experience to generate the files for manufacturing. The film and setup costs are usually what bites. The good thing is that the film cost should only be a one time fee. Since these boards are going to be quite small it also means that there will be a high number made per sheet of board material. It has been about 5 years since I messed with this stuff, but I still have the connections to deal with it, and get information.


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## Heavens Eagle (Jun 30, 2003)

Upon looking at the kit (it has been a while). The inner dome will either have to be left off, or thinned down from the inside as it is quite thick.

It might just require 0605 leds to do the job as the board useable area is only going to be about 7/16 of an inch in diameter or so with the outside edge being about 1/2 inch in diameter. I had thought that maybe it could be done on a single sided board, but am not real sure about that. In any case the wires are going to have to be extra thin for wiring this, even if the controller board is mounted in the nacelle. This amounts to a useable area of .150 sq inches for the parts and wiring pads. Each 0805 package is going to need about .007 or so Sq inches and the wiring pads will be dependant on the circuit. It will be tight but if it is done right folks will ask just how did you do that. :thumbsup:


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## jwrjr (Oct 31, 2003)

The leds have a common cathode connection, so the obvious choice would be to have that common connection in the middle. The cpu, voltage regulator, and 10 resistors are on a separate board that 'T's into the back of the display board. An 0.3" dip package fits into the 1/1000 nacelle ... barely. This I know as I've done it.The cpu board would be a bit long to accomodate the resistors. I'll look to see if I can find usable resistor networks to keep the size down. More later.


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