# Are Blades Quieter than Pins?



## Grandcheapskate

Hi Guys,
After putting together my new layout, I seem to notice that my Aurora AFX cars with a blade guide pin seem to make less noise (and be smoother) at each track joint than chassis with a thin pin guide.
Since I am using Mattel track (and before that, it was Aurora MM track), I have to shave down the blade since the full blade is too long for Tyco/Mattel or MM track. However, I also have some of the early blade pins which were already short and more squarish; these seem to be the most quiet and smooth.
A blade making less noise at a track joint than a pin would seem to make sense to me. Because the blade is longer (front to back), it probably has a lesser tendency to find the little nooks between pieces and more gracefully rides the inside or outside wall of the slot.
Add to that the fact that plastic probably makes less noise than steel.
Is this the experiance of others as well?

Thanks...Joe


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## ebmjo

I haven't looked at one of those blades in a long time, but aren't they tapered at the front? If so, that could explain why they're quieter. 
When you trim those long blades, if you round the leading edge, that may make them as quiet as the older short ones.


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## [email protected]

*slide guide*

Here is a link to a guy who makes guide flags for all kinds of HO cars and tracks!! I may try it sometime.
http://www.horacepro.com/guides.html


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## Bro-man44

*Blades*

Grand,

Another good observation topic!! :dude: I have AFX track and same happenings! I thought the blade pin side was the sissy way to run the cars!! So, I jumped on my bandwagon and got a bunch of G-plus pins to replace all those plastic pins from all the cars I had!! Well come to find out that those little metal pins do find the nooks and crannys and can be a pain in the arse on some running cars! Especially on a 4 laner where all the pieces don't fit inside each other well(ex. hairpin turn) and you have to stretch the pieces out so they butt up against each other better!! Its a give or take, either push the track pieces together and deal with the gap left over between pieces or stretch them out and deal with the gaps in the joint!! This is where the pin problems come in!! I thought the G-plus pins did drop the car down a wee bit more but, they also seem to make that "scrapity" sound also(not on all but some cars) and I also believe this contributed to the clickity-clack sound too!! I switched back to some of the plastic, blade side, and it did make a difference with not getting caught up in the nooks and a quieter ride!

Now, T-jets are different cause all they have are pin blades so, I 'm trying to figure out something to fill in the joint gaps to make it a smoothier ride!! The track is nailed down and I decided before hand to deal with the track joints, instead of the gaps between pieces. Nothing permanent and nothing to hinder the electric flow, something like modeling clay or very thin styrene sheet fitted in the gap(in the slot actually) to help smooth the joint out!!

Anywho, hope this helps and if not, at least get the brain cells churning to come up with something else!! That is what I like about this forum, IDEAS!! I/we may not use all the stuff we learn here on this forum but, its a great place to get IDEAS and use them to your advantage and help in the process of coming up with more and more GREAT IDEAS and passing them along!! :thumbsup: 

Oh, I ain't a sissy either!! :lol: 

Thanks,
Tom


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## Bill Hall

*It were about 19 hundred and junior high...sonny!*

Joe, If those squarish shorter guides dont have a pin topside, I believe those were from the Model A four gear series. Gulp! Unfortunately I'm old enough to remember. I always rekonned that they deleted the pin for asthetics cuz the unused pin sticking up really uglies up the front of the "A" bodies. As they wanted the cars to be compatible with shortslot tracks, their own included (re:MM) the "odd flag" came to be. Easy enough to spot their tops are smooth/flat with no belly button where the pin would be cut off. Strangely I often cant remember my age, or my birthday anymore, but I do remember when I got my first four gear and went "what the heck is this?"...then I quickly realized that they had shortened it enough to run in MM track and bobbed the pin for pretty. 

I do agree that the blades seem quiter and presume that this is so because they are not hard mounted to the chassis like the cram in metal versions. The primitive bearing or swivel lessens the direct transfer of guide shock through the chassis. Thus not directly transferring as much racket from the dinks and doinks of sectional track. Dunno much about harmonics or sound but bangin' plastic on plastic is usually quieter than bangin' plastic on metal. In contrast the swivel flag allows more of a glancing blow when irregularities are encountered. Bending like a reed in the wind for lack of a scientific term. 

As to the pin vs blade theory on racket; simply put and again MHO, as the blade surface is wider and convexed in profile; the side area it tends to glide right over the smaller crevices and diggies in sectional track. It's just too big to fall into the minute irregularities. Whereas the pins are more relative in size to sectional gaps and easily fall into these gaps on the load side. Snag, dink, doink, de-slot. In other words, "ya cant put a big round peg in a small rectangular crack". I believe the original engineers knew this! :thumbsup:

If you happen to have a real hot armed canopener magneted AFX car, replace the stock pin with a later Xtraction pin. Pound a few hot laps and take a look at the pin. Odds are it'll be wacked in one direction from joint snagging. Gives a good idea of the forces at play. 

Interestingly the old "Vibe" guide pins appear quieter on a T-jet. An accidental discovery. Under direct comparison the pin is a more tapered affair, especially the the top half of the shank. It is wider with more surface area than the later pin. When mounted on a T-jet they seem to run quieter and less twitchy in the rough spots. Again I presume this is because of the larger side area. 

Still a Neanderthal/purist (LOL) running on "Slop and Doink-ya" track. Thats lock and joiner for you younger guys. I'm not remiss to drag a file or some folded sandpaper in a troublesome joint. With this dislcaimer! In the bottom of the slot it's ok to go hog wild and smooth out the transitional steps that occur. However it should be noted that the sides or wall of the slot should be approach carefully. About all you can do is lightly dress out the transition from piece to piece. Sanding will NOT fill a sidewall gap. You'll just widen the slot eccessivly and the snag hole will remain just a little farther to the left or right of where you started. For those annoying lil bastages I use a 3/8" gouge blade on my Exacto handle. I run a short strip of masking on either side of the slot to protect the track surface. The gouge blade is then used like a mini spatula to carefully trowel in some filler. I use Testors "ooey gooey" in the orange and white tube. Only takes just a carefully placed flick of the wrist then walk away. Come back the next day and profile it with your weapon of choice. A perfect solution? Heck no! But it beats tearing things up, replacing track, pullin yer hair out and most importantly gets ya back in the slot!

On a last note, if you have a rattling, clattering swivel guide, we all do; dont be afraid to scrunch the 'lil fork that holds it in place. GENTLY of course! Just enough to take the slop out but retaining free swivel. I always put a touch of light assembly lube in the fork and this seems to help with some of the "tic toc" noise as well.

Sorry for the hijack guys, and now back to yer regularly scheduled programming.


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## vaBcHRog

Some of you might remember the swivel guides from AutoWorld for TJETS!

Roger Corrie


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## Bill Hall

vaBcHRog said:


> Some of you might remember the swivel guides from AutoWorld for TJETS!
> 
> Roger Corrie


LOL Roger! Nice catch.

Like me....yer old!

but some portions of our memory still remain


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## Grandcheapskate

The short AFX blade, for those who have not seen it, is shaped like a rectangle and seems just a little thicker than the more common AFX blade. As Bill mentioned, there is no pin on the other side. The short AFX blade will not bottom out on MM or Tyco track.

I had found the shorter blade to be a problem on MM track - it always seemed like it was a little too wide for the slot. However, on the Tyco/Mattel, it seems to work great.

It could be that the blade causes more friction and therefore might have a negative effect on a car's overall performance. However, if the noise/smoothness difference between a pin and a blade is as significant as it seems to be, I'll sacrifice a little speed for smoothness and quiet.

Which of course leads me to think - should a plastic blade pin be made for all chassis?

As to a filler for those track joints, I started a thread on the DL about this very issue and got a number of ideas. There was JB Weld, Bond-O, Plastic Wood and others. I am going to give sheetrock spackle a try; I figure it will fail, but it's worth a shot. I want to use something that allows me to seperate the track if necessary, so I don't want to use anything that will glue the pieces together.

Thanks...Joe


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## AfxToo

> oe, If those squarish shorter guides dont have a pin topside, I believe those were from the Model A four gear series.


The original AFX cars came with the shorter single sided guide blade. It wasn't until the AFX snap track came out that the reversible guide was stock issue on the cars, but as with anything Aurora they probably still had millions of the original blades in the supply channel so they continued to trickle out long after the changeover. Unfortunately, the stubby little plastic pin was really lousy on the old MM track but it was the only side that was usable. The MM track was better with a blade. We used to cut down the deep blade but I always preferred the shallow blade over these.

Anything but a pin makes marshaling harder. A self centering, spring loaded blade could be rather nice.


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## Grandcheapskate

Would a thicker pin, one with a larger outside diameter, be smoother than a thin pin? Would a larger pin be less likely to get hung up, or bang around, in the joint?

Joe


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## AfxToo

Joe, maybe do an experiment to find out? Maybe mount up a metal pin and add plastic tubing or tape to thicken it up? 

I think the original shallow AFX blade was better then the deeper blade on the later 2-sided guide because the shallow blade was flat on the sides. The taper on the deeper blade may help get it through the transitions at the joints but I believe that in a corner, and even in the straight if the car pulls to one side, the taper is going to cause the blade to rotate and rub on both sides of the slot, creating added drag. That's my unproven theory but I can visualize it in my head.


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## Hornet

I've ran a thicker pin on magnet cars Joe,didn't really notice much of an improvement from a stock pin,but it might be worth a try though on a t-jet,just make sure it doesn't bind up in the slot. :thumbsup:


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## Bill Hall

*Right on the nut*



AfxToo said:


> Joe, maybe do an experiment to find out? Maybe mount up a metal pin and add plastic tubing or tape to thicken it up?
> 
> I think the original shallow AFX blade was better then the deeper blade on the later 2-sided guide because the shallow blade was flat on the sides. The taper on the deeper blade may help get it through the transitions at the joints but I believe that in a corner, and even in the straight if the car pulls to one side, the taper is going to cause the blade to rotate and rub on both sides of the slot, creating added drag. That's my unproven theory but I can visualize it in my head.


Been there "Too"!

Used to run my t-jets on my big scale tracks 60's vintage Carrera and Marklin specifically. A piece of the harder, slick wall, wire insulation was slipped over the guide pin...worked great. I imagine one could use something similar with good results providing the prosthesis still slid over the pin and didnt exceed max OD. Perhaps the swizzle stick that comes on WD-40...?

Another one of my 'speriments goes like this. Run a bare AFX chassis blade side down. On the pin, now topside, fold a little snip of masking around the pin so the longer remains jut forward like a flag. I used bright blue tape and cut it so the flag had a pointed front... cuz I'm blind. Then troll yer car and watch the little flag. 

At slower speeds the flag wiggles like a compass needle as the blade drags one side of the slot or the other. As speed increases side loading will be more evident as the flag slams to one side or the other and is held by the forces of nature. 

The first venture actually was a dab of white out but it proved difficult to keep track of From the other side of the slot table.


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## AfxToo

> the flag wiggles like a compass needle as the blade drags one side of the slot or the other


My theory may be correct. Try it with a flat sided guide flag and see if the wiggle persists.

Bill, I'd bet we'd have one hell of a time if we could plug into some adjacent drivers stations...


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## Grandcheapskate

I will have to experiment some more to see if any of the theories work out in real life.

This is really the first time I have put in the time and effort necessary to get a track smooth. I used to just set up the MM track and hope for the best. This last time I set up the MM track, before tearing it down, I tried to smooth it out but just gave up. Restarting with Mattel seemed to put me further along on the path to smoothness.

However, the flares at the end of the slots are a real problem. If you ride your car around slowly, you can see how a guide pin will ride the wall of the slot. When it gets to a track joint, and therefore the flare, you can watch the car wiggle back and forth (and bang the slot wall on the next piece of track). If that flare was not there (like MM track), or very small (Aurora AFX), this would not be an issue; especially with a blade. But Tyco made the flare too large (and non-symetrical) and it does complicate matters a lot. I think the flare and the 90 degree bend at the end of rail is what causes most of the track joint issues. 

It may be that a blade pin overcomes the flare problem. A flat blade, like the early AFX blades, may have less of a tendency to follow the flare and therefore less likely to wiggle and bang around in the slot. It certainly seems less likely to end up bothered by little openings.

If true, maybe the next venture should be the manufacture of swival flat blades for different chassis, including T-Jets. Give me a choice of using a blade or filing every track joint on every track I put together, I choose the blade.

Joe


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## Grandcheapskate

I brought this topic back because I wanted to get opinions on the downside of using a plastic, rather than steel, guide pin (whether blade or pin).

In one of my other threads, I am documenting my attempt to fill in the flares on Mattel track, so I won't address that issue here. However, it does seem that the flares are a much smaller, if not non-existant, problem when replacing a pin with a plastic blade.

Clearly, a plastic guide pin makes much less noise than a steel pin on plastic track. I just replaced the steel pin on an Aurora AFX with a plastic blade. The decrease in noise level and the reduction of bouncing in the slot was dramatic. It was like I was running another chassis; it went from loud and bouncing to quiet and pretty smooth.

And this was with a filed down later version AFX blade, not the earlier rectangular blade which, in my opinion, is the smoothest.

So I am thinking that plastic blades are better on plastic track, and are good for those who value smoothness and quiet over ultimate speed. Personally, I would much rather have my cars be smooth and quiet even if I do lose just a bit of speed.

Joe


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## twolff

I share your prefrence for plastic blades on my AFX and Magnatraction/XTraction cars. I'm using Tomy track that should be (finally) screwed down in the next couple weeks.


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## wm_brant

Grandcheapskate said:


> Which of course leads me to think - should a plastic blade pin be made for all chassis?


Joe --

If plastic blades could be made to fit where an existing pin fits, and does not require any chassis modifications, I'd buy 'em for inline cars running on my own track. 

That would be an easy way of effectively making a sectional track smoother. 

I've also heard that the guide slot in routed tracks made of Sintra gets worn from the metal pins, so there might be interest from those people, too.

-- Bill


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## SwamperGene

In our experience racing on both Tomy track and MaxTrax, flags are noisier and slow the cars down. Every time a new racer throws a "flagged" car on the track, there are some of us who can instantly tell just by the noise (besides said racer wondering why his car sounds rough compared to the rest). As far as speed and especially cornering (actually, the track trying to push the pin into the center of a circle), common sense tells me more material = more drag. IMO the only advantage that a flag creates is reach, and with that it becomes more of a driving skill issue than anything.


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## Grandcheapskate

wm_brant said:


> Joe --
> 
> If plastic blades could be made to fit where an existing pin fits, and does not require any chassis modifications, I'd buy 'em for inline cars running on my own track.
> 
> That would be an easy way of effectively making a sectional track smoother.
> 
> -- Bill


Bill,
That would be the idea; make plastic blades which simply snap into existing chassis. It would be for those guys that run on plastic sectional track and want a smoother ride.

A question: Just how many different sizes would we be talking about if we restrict the discussion to Tyco, Tomy, Aurora and Lifelike? Would also be nice if a swival blade could be designed for T-Jets.

I noticed the other day that some HP-2 (or Curvehugger) chassis already have a bladed, swival pin.

There are a couple ways to make the pin:
(1) Blade on one side, pin on the other (like existing AFX guides)
(2) Blades on both sides
(3) Blade only on one side, topside empty

Thanks...Joe


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## Grandcheapskate

SwamperGene said:


> As far as speed and especially cornering (actually, the track trying to push the pin into the center of a circle), common sense tells me more material = more drag. IMO the only advantage that a flag creates is reach, and with that it becomes more of a driving skill issue than anything.


Gene,
As a car takes a curve, it gets thrown toward the outside slot wall; more so when using a non-mag car. When you get to a track joint, the car is still trying to go in a straight line and therefore away from the "center" of the circle. This is when the guide pin tries to (a) follow any flare molded into the slot and (b) fit into the small space between track pieces.

The blade, due to it's length (and possibly increased width) tends to be less affected by the flare and is too big to fit into the small space at the track joint and therefore glides over it. The result is a smoother ride.

Granted, the additional surface area should create more drag. Although, especially on a curve, there are only going to be two points (at most) on a blade which are contacting the slot wall at any one time - the extreme front corner and rear corner of the blade. So, is this a lot more surface area than a pin?

I also didn't understand what you meant by "reach". Could you explain that?

Thanks...Joe


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## SwamperGene

Grandcheapskate said:


> Gene,
> As a car takes a curve, it gets thrown toward the outside slot wall;


This is a common assumption that stems from the confusion between centrifugal and centripetal force. A slot car is only capable of going straight, the only thing that changes this is the side of the slot forcing the pin into a circle. As another example, when you take a corner in a car your body is not being thrown against the sides of the car, the sides of the car are being pushed towrds your body, which is still moving in a straight line. This is centripetal force.


As to drag, a flag has _much more_ than double the amount of a pin. Gotta head to work but I'll 'splain tonight if no one else does.


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## Grandcheapskate

SwamperGene said:


> Gotta head to work but I'll 'splain tonight if no one else does.


 Are you putting work ahead of slot cars? Tsk, Tsk....


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## SwamperGene

Grandcheapskate said:


> Are you putting work ahead of slot cars? Tsk, Tsk....










yes unfortunately



So...back to pins and blades. When a tapered pivoting blade is in a corner, theoretically it will "twist" itself to it's center point, in our case the wide portion of the blade. Problem is, the much stronger force of the car trying to go straight creates friction between the flag and the side of the slot, which will make the front edge of the pin pull towards the side of the slot with force. At best you'll have two thin points of drag...the leading edge of the flag and the center "bulge". The amount of surface area involved is directly proportional to the flag's radius vs the curve's radius. In a worse case scenario, you'd have the entire front half of the flag rubbing the side of the slot, actually not only rubbing but twisting against the slot wall...hence my statement that a flag could create way more drag than a pin.

As for the "reach" comment, I meant that the ability to keep a car in the slot substantially increases as the pin/flag extends deeper into the slot. Much like traction magnets, it can become a dependability that can make it difficult to handle a variety of cars under varying circumstances....and I believe that hampers one's ability to find their own unique driving style.


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## SwamperGene

Just to test the theory, I took a Sharpie to the sides of an AFX flag and did 2 very light laps around my track. That's all it took to wear most of the Sharpie ink off the front half of the flag. Hard to photograph, you can see the wear marks a little in the first pic that is "brightened", but the image editor picked up the wear marks as highlighted in the second pic. Except for a couple pinhead sized dots, the back half of the flag on either side remained virtually untouched. 



















Clearly a lot of rubbin' going on.


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## LeeRoy98

I believe the contention being made regarding the use of the flag vs. the pin is that while the flag may have a higher drag co-efficient per inch of travel, the pin has a much higher drag co-efficient at each joint. 
So hypothetically, the flag could have a drag co-efficient of +1 per inch of travel and a pin a +.5. But if the joint is a +2 for the flag and a +10 for the pin the results on a 12" curve is +14 for the flag and +16 for the pin. 
I'm not taking sides in this debate, just pointing out one of the issues I think would need to be measured. I run the flag on all AFX cars unless the track is marshalled and then I run the pin. 
On a tight track I feel that a flag makes for a smoother and faster car. But that may only be a reflection of the quieter sound of plastic on plastic. It sounds quieter... so it must be smoother... so it must be faster! Not always the truth.

Interesting discussion...

Gary
AKA LeeRoy98
www.marioncountyraceway.com


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## Grandcheapskate

There's actually two points I wanted to debate/discuss in this thread. One is the question of blades verses pins, and the other is plastic verses steel. We have touched a number of times on the blade-pin battle, but never really mention the steel-plastic issue.

Is there any benefit or drawback to either steel or plastic guides? What are the pros and cons of each in your experiance.

Now, back to the blade/pin discussion.

Gene,
I don't really disagree with anything you've posted. Have you ever tried using the rectangular blades found, I believe, on early AFX cars. These are one sided guides (there is no pin side) and are longer (though less deep) than the more common "bulge" blade you have in your picture. I have a few and picked up more in Aberdeen on Sunday. These blades should show a different wear pattern since they do not have a radius - they are flat. That's why I was thinking the contact points would only be in the front and rear. Being flat, they should have less surface area contacting the slot wall.

I was running some cars around today trying to get a feel for just how much smoother and quieter the blades are. (The best test case would be T-Jets, but that's just not possible unless someone makes a T-Jet blade). I think I can safely say that although blades don't get hung up in track joints (as easily), they still do get affected by the flares in the slots. You can see it in the regular AFX chassis as the car will wobble down the straights at each joint.

There is one spot in my track with 5 6" 1/8 curves in a row. These are prototypes pieces and therefore not as good as the eventual production piece. I had one car today that got rejected at each joint in that series of curves; the car actually jumped backwards at each joint. It really is surprising how some AFX chassis can go smoothly around those curves while others, whether with pins or blades, bang and jump around at each joint. There has to be a secret to getting a smooth guide pin, I just have to figure out the magic formula.

The other area where I believe a blade helps is when a car fishtails. When this happens, the car is at an angle to the slot and is either trying to go left or right. Getting a car "sideways" will cause a pin to more easily find the gap between pieces while a blade has a better chance to ride it out.

There is no doubt a better design for a blade than we have yet seen. Possibly rounded in the front and flat (like the old rectangular blade) behind. Someone with a background in physics would probably know the answer.

Joe


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## Grandcheapskate

Guys,
I want to throw this idea out for discussion. Would a triangle shaped guide pin/blade be able to ride out the slot flares and track joint gaps better than anything currently available?

Here's my thought and I'd like to hear from those guys who have a lot more knowledge of engineering and physics than I do. A triangle shaped pin, with the leading "edge" being the point of the triangle and the trailing "edge" being the wide base might be able to handle track joints better than either a pin or flat blade. The wide base (on the trailing edge) would prevent the front of the pin/blade from turning side to side; therefore the point of the pin/blade would always remain fairly centered in the slot. The leading edge, remaining somewhat centered, would not find the little crevices or follow the flares in the track joints, while the tapering of the pin (front to back) would allow the pin to gradually recenter itself as you pass from piece to piece.

This would have to be a blade style pin with a length about the same as an AFX blade. Whether the blade is designed to swival or not would also be a consideration.

Thoughts?

Thanks...Joe


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## AfxToo

I know some really good engineers and I know some really good slot car racers. They are very rarely one and the same person. 

Run some experiments. I would fabricate some sort of test fixture. You could for example set up a test track on a ramp and use a weighted, gravity powered test vehicle and one or more timers to collect data. You could also set up a test track and time the same vehicle over the same exact course at a fixed voltage. In any case I would remove the human element from the equation. I speculate that the ramp would be more repeatable and produce better data. The data from the powered test vehicle would be noisier due to the variations caused by things like motor break-in, motor temperature, dirty tires, etc.

You could use weights on the gravity test vehicle to simulate different types of real slot cars with and without magnetic downforce and vary the angle of the ramp to evaluate different velocity profiles. The test vehicle will likely be accelerating over the entire length of the ramp, so you may want to measure the time for more than one segment and replicate the track configuration for each segment. For example, if each segment had a left turn, a short straight, and a right turn and you repeated that pattern three times on the ramp you would collect times for each segment. This would give you an indication about the effect of each guide/pin configuration at different velocities. Some guides may affect performance at lower speeds more than at higher speeds. But even a series of aggregate timing measurements for the entire test track would be informative and potentially enlightening for your guide/pin investigation.


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## NTxSlotCars

How about a plastic blade that would slip over a metal pin? I. E. making a universal blade?

Rich


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## blubyu

Is it the pin/blade or the track joints?


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## Grandcheapskate

blubyu said:


> Is it the pin/blade or the track joints?


 My observations are that it is a combination of the two. Read through this thread from the beginning and there are postings where I describe what I believe to be the issue.

Thanks...Joe


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## NTxSlotCars

NTxSlotCars said:


> How about a plastic blade that would slip over a metal pin? I. E. making a universal blade?
> 
> Rich


Yeah, what about it?


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## Mike(^RacerX^)

Yeah the clickity clack of my track bothered me too........

From what I saw with my Tomy layout,is that the track is far from perfect.Meaning that when you butt two pieces of track together,the spot where the two slots on the track meet,is never a perfect transition from one piece to the next.

So I got a file out of my guitar tool box that I would normally use to cut the nut slots on a guitar.

The file is about the same width as a track slot.
I went around my whole track,and where the slots met,I ran the file through until it went freely through the slot.

Worked great,and I can race now without it sounding like Im playing with model trains.

Actually,when I built my track my goal was to do as many things as I need to do to get it as close to a routed track as I could.This was one thing that really helped.

Mike


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## NTxSlotCars

I did the same thing Mike. I used fingernail files. They're flexible and disposable.


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## slotnewbie69

gotta agree with the marshalling comment...the blades on my mt's are very quiet,but if i spin out in a corner,i have to center the blade again before i can reslot...so,i am for the steel pin,myself...


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## dlw

Lots of marshalls have that problem with MT/XT cars, but there's an easy way to put them on. Just remember how they came off and place the car in the same position, the nudge them straight so the take off.....


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## slotnewbie69

's true,i suppose...i just have the same problem with my 1/43 cars,that drift...always straightening the braids and guide flag when they spin out...


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## Grampa Ho

Hi all, new to site but 40 years exp. 
About your clickty clacking try a hard candle wax in the joint.
Easy to sand or smooth out and a blow dryer will help in seperation 
if you need to repair said piece. Been working for our group and specially lock and 
joiner track.


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## Grampa Ho

I'm sorry for that short responce to noise of pins/flags as I was limited on time.
Now, I should point out that you need to melt the wax into the slot or joint and then
sand/file/cut to smoothness. Wax, we have found is about the closest "feel" for the tires
to travel on without slipping or grabing to much. This process does not work so well between the rails as it may grab the shoes but some have had success if the seperation is not to far apart. I have also noted that manufacturers groove depth varies between pieces and that has posed a problem but for the most part the wax formula has virtually eliminated the clack and desloting. Looking forward to hearing all responses with this technic


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## NTxSlotCars

Welcome to the board Gramps. Waxing sounds like a heck of a deal. I'll give it a shot and let you know how it works on our track.

Rich
www.myspace.com/northtexasslotcars


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## slotnewbie69

good idea grampa!we have issues with a capital 'I' on our four lane...think my buddy has the best of intentions,just not as much patience maybe...its always tough,getting stuff to line up just right,then having a bunch of slotards come by and pick apart your hard work.he did a fine job,but all tracks can be improved,right?


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## Grandcheapskate

Grampa Ho said:


> Hi all, new to site but 40 years exp.
> About your clickty clacking try a hard candle wax in the joint.
> Easy to sand or smooth out and a blow dryer will help in seperation
> if you need to repair said piece. Been working for our group and specially lock and joiner track.


 Here's the companion thread to this one:

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=210466

I haven't been making much progress on finding the best method for smoothing out the track joints, but I do pick up the project now and then. Never thought of using wax, but now I will.

I also just want to point out that Aurora L&J track doesn't suffer the problem faced when dealing with Tyco/Mattel track. The ends of the slot on Aurora track is no wider than the rest of the slot, whereas on Tyco/Mattel (and Lifelike) the slot is flared at the ends. This makes the repair far more extensive.

There are two approaches to fixing the problem of track joints. One is to fix the track so that existing guide pins work better, and the other is to design a guide pin that can more smoothly ride through a track joint.

The first solution is time and work intensive, but your cars (and everyone else's cars) can remain unmodified.

The second requires a change to all your guide pins, but will work on all tracks.

Joe


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## twolff

I'm faced with tackling the track joint problems myself. I think I'm going to match the flare of ajoining Tomy track section by hand as I lay the track and fasten it down. It is setup "loose" at the moment and even blades are catching the narrower flares and the car hits an invisible wall when it happens.


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## NTxSlotCars

Hey guys,
I just put a radio in my garage, AND ALL MY TRACK NOISE JUST WENT AWAY!!!!!!


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## Grampa Ho

NT, Just remember you can change to AM for that realistic race sound too!


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## thunderjetgene

*Mattel Track?*



Grandcheapskate said:


> Hi Guys,
> After putting together my new layout, I seem to notice that my Aurora AFX cars with a blade guide pin seem to make less noise (and be smoother) at each track joint than chassis with a thin pin guide.
> Since I am using Mattel track (and before that, it was Aurora MM track), I have to shave down the blade since the full blade is too long for Tyco/Mattel or MM track. However, I also have some of the early blade pins which were already short and more squarish; these seem to be the most quiet and smooth.
> A blade making less noise at a track joint than a pin would seem to make sense to me. Because the blade is longer (front to back), it probably has a lesser tendency to find the little nooks between pieces and more gracefully rides the inside or outside wall of the slot.
> Add to that the fact that plastic probably makes less noise than steel.
> Is this the experiance of others as well?
> 
> Thanks...Joe



Hey Joe - Mattel? Why the hell would you run Tyco/Mattel track? :freak: 

Use Tomy track, it has a deeper slot anyway, so you can take advantage of the longer blade/pin! :woohoo:

You know, it just occured to me - you have all those set cars for sale, which probably means you are stuck with all that track!  Oh well, never mind....


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## Grandcheapskate

thunderjetgene said:


> Hey Joe - Mattel? Why the hell would you run Tyco/Mattel track? :freak:
> 
> Use Tomy track, it has a deeper slot anyway, so you can take advantage of the longer blade/pin! :woohoo:
> 
> You know, it just occured to me - you have all those set cars for sale, which probably means you are stuck with all that track!  Oh well, never mind....


 There are a couple reasons. One of course is that I have thousands of brand new pieces.

If, and it's a big if, the Mattel track did not have the flare at the end of the slot and Mattel did not mold the letter onto the track surface, I would have no complaints about Mattel track (issues with any plastic track aside).

I also like the even lane spacing, which is the one unalterable characteristic of any track.

Joe


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## Grandcheapskate

I discovered something interesting today which will cause me all sorts of grief until I figure it out.

I was running an Aurora AFX car yesterday. This chassis has a blade guide pin. Not the type you find on latter Magnatractions or on JL/AW XTs, but the earliest flat blades that came out when AFX's were first introduced. These blades are rectangular in shape and do not bulge in the middle like JL/AW blades. They are also shorter (depth wise), designed to run on Aurora L&J track. They do seem a little longer front to back than the latter AFX or JL/AW blades.

I have two types of these blades. While the shape is the same, one seems a little thicker than the other. I was running the car with the thicker blade.

The thicker blade tends to find every slot joint which is even slightly misaligned. It doesn't just make a "click" sound, the car actually either jumps backward out of the slot or stops at that joint as if there is a wall.

So I take this car and run it around all four lanes, filing all the track joints where there is a problem. Some time later, it is running around each lane without a problem. Great. If that pin makes it, every other pin type should be happy.

Well, today I put that same car on the track and it is finding all sorts of problem joints. I didn't understand what was happening. Then, for some reason I turned the blade so that the trailing side was now the leading side. And the car went around the track as if every joint was smooth. Humm?

So, I look at the blade. There has to be a difference in the two sides; or so you would think. Even under a magnifying glass, I can't really see any difference. There is the slightest dimple on one edge, but it is so small it's hard to believe it could make such a huge difference.

Well, tomorrow I will file the dimple down and see what happens. I just find it amazing that the blade could act so differently depending upon which side is facing forward.

Joe


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## slotcarman12078

It doesn't take much!!


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## Grandcheapskate

I am constantly thinking of some way to make cars run more smoothly through the slot joints. The other day a thought occurred to me --- what if the guide pin were a free spinning ball bearing?

The design would be a straight shaft through the center of the ball bearing. The ball bearing can spin on the shaft. The bottom of the shaft would have something akin to the head of a pin which would keep the ball bearing on the shaft. On the top it would attach to the chassis exactly like it is today. For example, on a T-Jet it would be like putting a ball bearing on the guide pin. Maybe something on the shaft to keep the ball bearing from riding up and down too much.

I'm thinking that a free spinning ball bearing that is slightly smaller than the slot (but wider than current pins) would have little friction on the sides of the slot, yet keep the car more centered. And because the car is more centered and the wider ball bearing prevents side to side motion, the transition from straight to straight would be smoother. When you get to a curve, the wider "pin" will be more centered, not see the little track gaps, and the round free spinning ball bearing will more easily bounce off any track misalignment.

I'd really like to try out this idea. However, the only ball bearing with a hole through it that I can think of is a link from a key chain. And they aren't very high quality.

Thoughts?


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## slotking

thought about that as well
both a spinning shaft or the bearing in the slot

but for racing I thought about a flag connected to a spring system that would limit the swing out of the car and keep the flag centered!

Then saw that Tony Porcelli of Slottech did it years ago


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## Hornet

edit.


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## Grandcheapskate

Hornet said:


> Joe try modifying a car to have a floating pin.
> I set up my cars so the pin can actually move back and forth in the chassis approximately 3/16 th's of an inch
> Even tried JB Welding a small steel ball onto the bottom of the guide-pin to ride in the bottom of the slot.
> The bearing idea riding under the chassis to act as runner,i think has been tried,seems to me somebody tried that trick awhile ago
> Rick


Rick,
What type of pin did you get to float - a T-Jet or inline? Did you see any advantage to the floating pin? How did you get it to float?

Thanks...Joe


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## Hornet

edit.


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## slotking

:thumbsup:


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## Grandcheapskate

Grandcheapskate said:


> I am constantly thinking of some way to make cars run more smoothly through the slot joints. The other day a thought occurred to me --- what if the guide pin were a free spinning ball bearing?
> 
> The design would be a straight shaft through the center of the ball bearing. The ball bearing can spin on the shaft. The bottom of the shaft would have something akin to the head of a pin which would keep the ball bearing on the shaft. On the top it would attach to the chassis exactly like it is today. For example, on a T-Jet it would be like putting a ball bearing on the guide pin. Maybe something on the shaft to keep the ball bearing from riding up and down too much.
> 
> I'm thinking that a free spinning ball bearing that is slightly smaller than the slot (but wider than current pins) would have little friction on the sides of the slot, yet keep the car more centered. And because the car is more centered and the wider ball bearing prevents side to side motion, the transition from straight to straight would be smoother. When you get to a curve, the wider "pin" will be more centered, not see the little track gaps, and the round free spinning ball bearing will more easily bounce off any track misalignment.
> 
> I'd really like to try out this idea. However, the only ball bearing with a hole through it that I can think of is a link from a key chain. And they aren't very high quality.
> 
> Thoughts?


I had some free time today so I went to the craft store. I know I've seen plastic beads with a hole through the center, so I was looking to see just how small a bead they sold. I know it's not a ball bearing, but it would be good for testing my theory.

I found a bag of these incredibly tiny beads for 59 cents. Surely they would have to be small enough to fit in the slot, right? Nope. Got them home and they are still too big to fit in a 1/16" slot.

I still think the idea of a spinning ball bearing would give a smoother ride through the slot of platic track, I just have to see if there are ball bearings small enough.

Life would have been much simplier if HO track used 1/8" slots from day 1.

Joe


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## Pat Dennis

Bro-man44 said:


> Grand,
> 
> Another good observation topic!! :dude: I have AFX track and same happenings! I thought the blade pin side was the sissy way to run the cars!! So, I jumped on my bandwagon and got a bunch of G-plus pins to replace all those plastic pins from all the cars I had!! Well come to find out that those little metal pins do find the nooks and crannys and can be a pain in the arse on some running cars! Especially on a 4 laner where all the pieces don't fit inside each other well(ex. hairpin turn) and you have to stretch the pieces out so they butt up against each other better!! Its a give or take, either push the track pieces together and deal with the gap left over between pieces or stretch them out and deal with the gaps in the joint!! This is where the pin problems come in!! I thought the G-plus pins did drop the car down a wee bit more but, they also seem to make that "scrapity" sound also(not on all but some cars) and I also believe this contributed to the clickity-clack sound too!! I switched back to some of the plastic, blade side, and it did make a difference with not getting caught up in the nooks and a quieter ride!
> 
> Now, T-jets are different cause all they have are pin blades so, I 'm trying to figure out something to fill in the joint gaps to make it a smoothier ride!! The track is nailed down and I decided before hand to deal with the track joints, instead of the gaps between pieces. Nothing permanent and nothing to hinder the electric flow, something like modeling clay or very thin styrene sheet fitted in the gap(in the slot actually) to help smooth the joint out!!
> 
> Anywho, hope this helps and if not, at least get the brain cells churning to come up with something else!! That is what I like about this forum, IDEAS!! I/we may not use all the stuff we learn here on this forum but, its a great place to get IDEAS and use them to your advantage and help in the process of coming up with more and more GREAT IDEAS and passing them along!! :thumbsup:
> 
> Oh, I ain't a sissy either!! :lol:
> 
> Thanks,
> Tom


This track jiont irregularity creates mre than noise. It actually causes chassis vibrations and slows the cars down. This is the reason we deisgned the original TycoPro with a guide flag - and hand scraped the slots (after solvent bonding all of the sections). This scraping and polishing accomplished two functions: smoothed the joints and reduced the draft angle of the slot walls.
Just an oldtimer -Pat Dennis


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## Grandcheapskate

Pat Dennis said:


> ...and hand scraped the slots (after solvent bonding all of the sections). This scraping and polishing accomplished two functions: smoothed the joints and reduced the draft angle of the slot walls.
> Just an oldtimer -Pat Dennis


Pat,

What do you mean by "reduced the draft angle of the slot walls"?

Thanks...Joe


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## Sir Slotsalot

Pat,

Excellent point. I looked it up. The draft angle is a technique in molding that allows the "part" to release easier from the mold.

http://www.dsm.com/en_US/html/dep/draftangle.htm

This angle formed in the slot wall during the molding process causes the car's pin to ride upwards out of the slot. If you were to view a cross-section of the slot under high magnification, you would see a slight "vee" shape. By re-cutting the slot you can reshape the original molded wall surface from slightly angled to straight. This will reduce the amount of upward thrust as the guide pin moves through the slot. It makes sense.


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## Pat Dennis

Sir Slotsalot said:


> Pat,
> 
> Excellent point. I looked it up. The draft angle is a technique in molding that allows the "part" to release easier from the mold.
> 
> http://www.dsm.com/en_US/html/dep/draftangle.htm
> 
> This angle formed in the slot wall during the molding process causes the car's pin to ride upwards out of the slot. If you were to view a cross-section of the slot under high magnification, you would see a slight "vee" shape. By re-cutting the slot you can reshape the original molded wall surface from slightly angled to straight. This will reduce the amount of upward thrust as the guide pin moves through the slot. It makes sense.


Re: Draft Angles.

In the early days of injection molding, they used 5 degrees (on each side of the slot). At Tyco, we managed to get the parts to release from the molds with only 1/2 degree. This made a noticable difference in cornering speeds. The new CNC routed tracks have 0 degrees,being cut by a tool, as opposed to molded, which makes them the as "good as it's going to get". You can improve molded track with the modifications that I previously suggested - these were tried and tested in the early '70s.
Pat Dennis


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## Sir Slotsalot

Pat,

Thanks again for sharing this great information. I used plastic track for years and never gave something like this a thought. It does make perfect sense. I wonder what the draft angle is on the latest version of Tomy track. I will ask Steve Russell.


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## Sir Slotsalot

For what it's worth. The current draft angle on Tomy track is 1-2 degrees.


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