# Lawnboy NO Start - Duraforce 6.5 Gold 10552



## andrewpogany (Aug 8, 2009)

Thank you very much for replying. I copied thread from DIY to Hobbytalk as you said you preferred. Here's where we left off....

Ok...
Yes 99-2911 is new part. And yes, I had erred in my re-engineering by grounding the module cable. I have spark now (which means I may not have needed new module) but still no start. Not even "trying" or hiccuping or nothing.

The spark is there but white/yellowish, not fat blue spark that is familiar to me when working on cars or motorcycles. Is that ok/normal?

My new theory is old/bad gas? Not sure how old but guessing over 6 months old. I always add Sta-bil when mixing gas and it's supposed to last a year it says. Not true? Never had/have a problem with Sta-bil-ized many months "old" gas with all my 50:1 2 stoke stuff (2 echoes, 1 ryobi).

ps My "plan" for the re-engineering is - and I have a switch already installed awaiting wires - "on" (circuit closed) would turn OFF engine and "off" (circuit open) to run. 


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#2 (permalink) Yesterday, 09:32 PM 
30yearTech 
Member Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 1,166 

First off, the electrical system that controls the electric starter and battery charging are completely separate from the ignition system. There may be some switches that were activated by the engine control bail to allow the electric starter to work, but they are directly connected to the ignition module.

What part did you replace? The ignition module for your engine shows to be a Toro/Lawnboy part number 99-2911. The wire that plugs into the module needs to be open in order for there to be spark. If it's grounded the module will not produce any ignition spark.

All the wires going to the rectifier are strictly for the alternator and are only used to keep the battery charged. 


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#1 (permalink) Yesterday, 07:55 PM 
andrewpogany 
Member Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: salinas, ca
Posts: 3 

Lawnboy NO Spark - Duraforce 6.5 Gold 10552 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Looking for clues on how to fix my beloved 10552 Gold no spark.

Help - this issue is driving me crazy. 

Details:
Def a no spark issue (new carb, etc, etc). Ran fine for a few weeks after new carb, then I started having this intermittent no spark issue while I was mowing (like RRRRRUNdiefor a secondRRRRRUNdeifor a second RRRRRUN...I hope you get the idea). It never totally died and needed to be restarted.

THEN, I was idiot, and against all mechanic's experience to isolate problems one-at-a-time, created either a new problem or exacerbated the old problem. I removed the stupid safety bar (that I always tied off during mowing anyway) and removed the brake. Not to fix the problem, but because I wanted it gone for long time and just figured I'd take care of that. Mower fired right up and ran the same - that is, intermittantly.

THEN (and this was after I discovered I could not shut the mower off w/o the brake without installing a switch - which I had not yet done - so I flooded it to shut it off), upon next try, it wouldn't start. Nothing I've done over the past few months has made any difference:

* Grounded the two wires attached to the brake (one looks like kill switch, other to rectifier?) since it looked like the brake assy grounded both once pulled. Interestingly, first time I started mower w/o brake it started and ran w/o these wires being grounded, but after that first time, starter wouldn't turn w/o grounding.

* Gave up and had it checked at local mower repair. confirmed no spark but wouldn't work on it (not LB service/"can't get parts" whatever).

* So I read 30yeartech's post to Chuck on this site (other thread on LB no start), and other posts on other sites, and concluded I needed a new Coil/ignition module, ordered and installed. Same deal. Nothing.

* Looks like a green wire coming out of the rectifier (white relay looking thing) and goes into the starter relay. What does it do? When I disconnect the wires going to rectifier the starter still turns fine (i say rectifier because acc to the online parts site says that's what that is, I'm not sure that is actually what the white thing next to the starter relay is).

* What else can be bad? What else can be wrong? Driving me freakin nuts! Help!


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## 30yearTech (Sep 14, 2006)

andrewpogany said:


> I had wire grounded. Not any more. Spark now. Looks weak tho. Not fat and blue like car/bike spark. Still no start, nor even "trying". Checked plug, getting gas. Gas is old but used Stabil. Will await reply from you and mix fresh batch of gas in case that's the next move. If so, I can drain gas tank, but will need guidance on whether needed / how to drain carb float bowls etc etc.


Definitely want to drain out the old fuel from the tank and replace with fresh. The easiest way to get the old fuel out of the carburetor is to just tilt the mower back slightly and pump the primer bulb about 50 times without the air filter in place. Place a rag under the air filter box to catch the fuel that runs out. You should have enough fresh fuel in the carburetor after this. Try manually priming the engine with a teaspoon of fresh mix and see if it will fire off. 

Also you cannot tell the intensity of the spark by the brightness or color of the spark, the hottest and strongest spark is ultraviolet in color and hardly visible to the eye. If you have visible spark, then you should be good to go, at least in this area.

I am going out and will not be back till late, so in the meantime I am sure others (geo) may offer some other suggestions as well.

Keep us posted.... and Best of Luck....:thumbsup:


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## andrewpogany (Aug 8, 2009)

thx again. Ok, will give that a shot and post results later. I assume the 50x prime bulb is WITH fresh gas already in tank so as to replace old gas with new in carb. i only have echo 2str oil on hand but i assume that should pose no problem as long as I mix it 32:1.


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## mikel m14 (Jul 27, 2009)

If I read this right, you have a spark and still not trying to crank up. Is the spark plug wet or dry?


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## andrewpogany (Aug 8, 2009)

Still no start / not even trying to fire. Yes, plug is wet.

Drained fuel tank, refilled with fresh gas (had to use Echo 2cycle oil which is all I had, should not be a problem I'm thinking). Did the 50x prime bulb / tilt w/o air filter thing about 5 or 6 times just to try to be sure. Nope. After first two 50x carb "purgings", I tried the prime with tsp of fresh gas as suggested. I may have did this wrong - I dumped tsp of gas straight into cylinder w plug removed (I hope that is what was meant...maybe not?).

Ok, the battery's back on the charger from all this useless cranking. What to try next?

Couple thoughts:
* Am I flooding the engine with the 50x prime technique? Should I NOT have the speed lever on choke then? I'm thinking not. Should it be on Fast? Slow? What?

* Quite sure that dumping a tsp of gas into cyl floods the thing so I tried cranking on Fast, Slow and then Choke (just in case). Nada.

* I triple checked for spark before puttin back on charger. Yes, it is getting spark.

* Does the intermittant running/dieing (in post, before this drama) point to some other problem besides the ignition module perhaps? In other words, my question is: is intermittant ignition ONLY caused by a module going bad?

Again, thanks for everyone's help. The madness continues (but I refuse to surrender!)

Andy


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## geogrubb (Jul 28, 2006)

30Year;
thanks but it's not my fault;
Ok, I have tried to follow the posts and some are too confusing for this old guy, so if it is an LB with compression(90+), fuel and spark(thru the plug) it should make smoke and noise, if not you have a sheared flywheel key. Have a good one. Geo


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## mikel m14 (Jul 27, 2009)

I agree with geogrubb, what is the compression at?


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## andrewpogany (Aug 8, 2009)

Old guys: (I'm getting there too , trust me....just married off daughter #2 of 2...first grandchild lottery is "ON"....)

Anyway....let's assume compression is ok since I don't have a compression tester and the thing ran GREAT a year ago before this whole intermittant spark miss thing started. 

Ok, assuming comp ok, and that igition/spark ok (i'm still not entirely convinced BTW), then what is this "SHEERED FLYWHEEL KEY" and how can I check it, test it?????

I am sorry for confusing nature of posts bouncing between two sites (it's 30yrtech's fault!!!). Here is what I think is a clear summary of situation below so you can skip all posts before this to try to clarify situation (I hope)....

------------------------------------------------------------

andrewpogany 
Member Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: salinas, ca
Posts: 5 

Ok, I tried your suggestion. Nothing. Did not even try to fire. Details of what I tried in case of error: disconnected gas hose at tank (too hard to get at carb side), flipped tank over and plugged hose to carb w golf tee (even tho wasn't leaking....but now I'm thinking the hose is full of gas isn't it?)

Anyway, removed plug, set lever to "Fast" and cranked way more than 10x....probably 50x. Dumped teespoon of fresh gas in, repl plug/wire, and cranked again. Nothing. Again cranked 4 or 5 times for 10 seconds at a time.

thought on this suggestion: carb atomizes fuel (i.e. vapor spray) going into cylinder, dumping raw fuel is not atomized. How can this work? Why can this work?

Next????

ps here's my last post to other site b4 i just tried your suggestion:

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Posts: 4 

Still no start / not even trying to fire. Yes, plug is wet....etc, etc...

andrewpogany 
Member Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: salinas, ca
Posts: 5 

marbobj,
thx for reply. 30yrtech replied to me as well on a diff site and also suggested to purge old gas, repl w/ fresh gas, remove filt and tilt mower and hit prime 50x to get old gas outta carb. 

Which I did to no avail....etc. etc.....

Also suggested the tsp of fresh gas to prime eng but no details (which I just asked about on other site) ....etc ...etc...

Spark still seems really weak. I was looking for blue too. Any tips to make SURE i have plug grounded well when checking?

Other:
Module is two bolts and a wire. How can I possibly screw up this install? i.e. your comment to make sure grounded well (how to check?) and installed correctly

On/off switch - got it, all over that. Once it starts, I'll just install new ground wire AND module wire to switch; switch "ON" = kill switch, switch "OFF" (i.e. No ground) = run. 


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#4 (permalink) Today, 03:22 PM 
marbobj 
Member Join Date: May 2006
Location: I-O-W-A !!!
Posts: 1,739 

Try shutting off your fuel to the carburetor, take out the plug and with full throttle/no choke, spin it off about ten times to purge all fuel from the cylinder. Then add a tablespoon of gas through the plug hole and try to start it with half throttle. If it tries, hook everything back up and see if it'll run for you.

Your spark should be bright blue, but you may have to work with what you have if you have installed a new module. Just make sure it's installed correctly and well grounded.

Your on/off switch should close to ground the ignition and kill the engine.


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## andrewpogany (Aug 8, 2009)

ps

I think an answer to this qq posted previously (but jumbled in a bunch of other stuff) is KEY:

Does the intermittant running/dieing (in post, before this drama) point to some other problem besides the ignition module perhaps? In other words, my question is: is intermittant ignition ONLY caused by a module going bad?

What is the answer??


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## mikel m14 (Jul 27, 2009)

I swear the more you put up there the more I get confused. Assuming that you have good compression, spark, and fuel. The only thing left is timing, if the flywheel key is sheared then the timing will be off. Remember the assuming part if those 3 are not correct the first 3 letters of assuming will be us.LOL


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## 30yearTech (Sep 14, 2006)

I agree, pasting all the other correspondence from the emails and posts from the other site take away from the flow and can cause some confusion.

There are a few other things to check that could cause a no start on an otherwise good engine. 

Plugged exhaust ports and or plugged muffler. 

Massive air leak into the crankcase. There are machine plugs in a Lawnboy crankcase that can fall out and create an air leak, and either the top or bottom seal as well.

Debris in the reed valve or a broken reed valve. 

Unlikely but a sheared flywheel key could also cause this. I say unlikely because the key is steel and I rarely see them break.

It is also possible to have a piston ring stick on a 2 cycle from sitting unused for a long period, so just because you had good compression a year ago, does not mean you have good compression today. You may be able to rent or borrow a compression tester from an automotive parts house and test your compression.


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## andrewpogany (Aug 8, 2009)

guys,
sorry for the confusion (but realize that this IS confusing to me - the guy trying to solve the prob as well...)

So, again I paste thoughts from other site after fruitless efforts on my part based on rec's.

B4 you read. If this is confusing then don't read thread below and here's the summary:

* thing won't start. won't ever TRY to fire
* plug new. carb freshly rebuilt and ran great a year ago prior to current problem. ignition module replaced/new. have spark. seems weak.
* purged carb. new gas. pulled plug / cranked to clear gas, etc. still not even hint of trying to fire.

I know that someone out there is smart enough to diagose. And I know that someone is not me.




#9 (permalink) Today, 07:45 PM 
andrewpogany 
Member Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: salinas, ca
Posts: 7 

Thx for wisdom. Makes sense. Flooded totally makes sense, assuming module was bad to begin with (gas, gas, gas, no spark), then with good module (if that is true) and BAD gas, again, tons of bad non-igniting gas and spark doesn't matter.

So now, presumeably, if spark is ok and gas is ok, with engine totally flooded, it won't start or even try to fire. I've run into flooded engines many many times over past 30 years with cars/bikes. Current condition is consistent EXCEPT that usually a flooded engine will at least be TRYING to start, esp is you mess with the choke. Which I did.

I will let sit overnight to allow fuel to evaporate which should and typically does cure flooded-ness and try again in the morning after battery is charged up again.

BUT...

Why the heck isn't this thing even TRYING to fire?? Esp if I have good spark, which I'm still not convinced I do have.

What "other components" can be "failing"? And how can I test them? 


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#8 (permalink) Today, 06:47 PM 
marbobj 
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## andrewpogany (Aug 8, 2009)

update oldest to newest. the drama is not quite done yet.
apologies for cornfusion and many thx for all the advice (and yes I did have mower tilted btw):

Ken's Mobile Services <[email protected]> to [email protected]ug 8
Andy,

Attached is a service manual for Dura-Force engines. Maybe it will shed some light on your particular issue.

Keep me updated either by email or on the forum and I will try to help you get it figured out.

- Show quoted text -

Ken


to_e_eng.pdf
2612 kb View Download 

ReplyForward


[email protected] to Ken's Mobile Services <[email protected]>Aug 9
Very helpful. Will study. Too embarrassed to post anything on either site today as it seems I have confused everyone. 

Quite convinced fuel now is good. Sat overnight so even if I massively flooded it, fuel should have evaportated. Still no start today, not even trying (no change). Only thought from motorcycle mech days is that if I fouled the plug, it needs replaced or cleaned? 

Anyway, thank you so much for all of your help! I'll let you know what's what tomorrow. 
Andy 

Kens Mobile Services <[email protected]> to [email protected]ug 9
Andy,

I can pretty much follow the posts, but unless you go to both sites it could be confusing to someone who has not been to the other site and put them all in logical order...[edit to shorten by pogany]...

I really don't think you have an ignition issue since you can see spark and we know that you have fresh fuel. I would concentrate on determining that you have decent compression, that the top and bottom crankshaft seals are in place, and that the exhaust is not restricted.

Feel free to post any questions or email me directly and hopefully we can get your engine figured out. 

- Show quoted text -

Ken

ReplyForward


[email protected] to Kens Mobile Services <[email protected]>11:31am Aug12
Ken, 
Eureka (sort of)! The answer to my question somewhere buried in the posts of "how could I possible screw up the CD install?" was in the PDF manual you sent me. Not gapped to .010 (I didn't even know it was adjustable). I only have a .008 feeler gauge and it's not curved but figured a looser than usual fit would do. Fired right up! So the spark WAS weak after all to my earlier hunch. So thank you VERY much for that. 

Now here's the problem (and I will post all this to both sites later today....I have to run out now for a few hours): Fired right up BUT it's back to RRRRRRquit for secRRRRRRquit for a secRRRRRRquit for a sec and then it died after about 30 seconds of this. Waited 10 min, tried again, fired right up, same thing except this time didn't die after 2 minutes of RRRRRRRquitRRRRRRquit etc so I went ahead shut it off. 

So I am right back to where I was b4 removing the brake. 

Thoughts?? 



Kens Mobile Services <[email protected]> to [email protected]11:39am
Sounds like the carburetor is either not feeding fuel, or the throttle is not opening far enough. Did you set the governor and attach the spring to the throttle control when the carburetor was installed?



[email protected] to Kens Mobile Services <[email protected]>6:14pm
I did not install the carb but I will say that when I got it home, the thing ran absolutely perfectly for several months before this condition. 

I was thinking that a lot of times a problem is the result of the last thing that was fixed/replaced/messed with. From the work order at the time: 
"brass jets and emulsion pipe were corroded also needle and seat [were corroded, I'm assuming. Carb was flooding fuel onto deck is why I took it in]" 
"carb overhaul kit, reassembled from parts a complete new body with all fixtures....etc...etc....(non carb stuff)". Carb kit part # 107-4607 

I have messed with a few car carbs a little but I am certainly no expert. I will thoroughly read the carb section of the manual you sent me. 

Meanwhile, how to test for govenor and (could either have come loose after the carb rebuild maybe?). 

Again, thanks SO much for your help. I will post all this onto both sites.


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## geogrubb (Jul 28, 2006)

Sorry too confusing for me, hope you get it fixed. Have a good one. Geo


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## andrewpogany (Aug 8, 2009)

Geogrubb,

Not confusing anymore. Ignore everything above but this (again, condensed) is where it's at:

"how could I possible screw up the CD install?" was in the PDF manual 30yrtech sent me. Not gapped to .010 (I didn't even know it was adjustable). I set it and it fired right up! So the spark WAS weak after all to my earlier hunch. 

Now here's the problem: Fired right up BUT it's back to RRRRRRquit for secRRRRRRquit for a secRRRRRRquit for a sec. After 2 minutes of RRRRRRRquitRRRRRRquit etc (it never died), I went ahead shut it off. 

So I am right back to where I was b4 removing the brake. 

Thoughts??


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## geogrubb (Jul 28, 2006)

andrewpogany said:


> Geogrubb,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The R-quit I assume is surging, if so while it is running spray carb/brake part cleaner along all mating surfaces behind the carb and along the crankcase, if the engine tempo changes you have an air leak if it doesn't you still have a fuel restriction(dirty carb). Have a good one. Geo


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## andrewpogany (Aug 8, 2009)

*GeniusGrubb*

Sprayed brakeclean at carb base/engine mount....HUGE improvement. To the point that by 3rd spraying in 5min low idle was almost rock solid ("fast" was still a little surge-y - much less than before however). So looks like "air leak" is the winner/problem.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

My theory is that when I had the carb rebuilt last year, the guy didn't get it tight or to seal quite right. I will take carb off this weekend and remount.

Hopefully cures it once and for all and then GeoGrubb/30yrtech and everyone else will thank God this whole confusing thing (apologies again) is finally over.


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## andrewpogany (Aug 8, 2009)

*Thanks to Geogrubb, 30yrtech, and all!*

Guys,
Just to close this out, airleak at base of carb was the cause of the surging. The mounting screw on one side was very loose. Tightened up the screws and the thing runs perfectly. Thanks again for everyone's help. All the best...
andy


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