# Updated: Chariot rubber and plastic melting.



## stevezodiak (Aug 27, 2008)

As we know, there was a problem with the Chariots rubber treads melting the plastic parts during shipping. This was acknowledged by Moebius Models who, to their credit, sent out replacement parts . The other issue seemed to be the rubber wheels when placed on the plastic rims. Moebius had recommended coating the rims with a clear nail polish prior to assembly to avoid this problem. I probably finished this new assembly about two months ago. Today I noticed a sort of seaping of clear droplets where the two parts meet. I really don't know what to do now to arrest this problem. It really seems like these two substances do not agree with each other. Has anyone else encountered this problem on theirs? Just curious before I contact Moebius again (?)....


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## teslabe (Oct 20, 2007)

stevezodiak said:


> As we know, there was a problem with the Chariots rubber treads melting the plastic parts during shipping. This was acknowledged by Moebius Models who, to their credit, sent out replacement parts . The other issue seemed to be the rubber wheels when placed on the plastic rims. Moebius had recommended coating the rims with a clear nail polish prior to assembly to avoid this problem. I probably finished this new assembly about two months ago. Today I noticed a sort of seaping of clear droplets where the two parts meet. I really don't know what to do now to arrest this problem. It really seems like these two substances do not agree with each other. Has anyone else encountered this problem on theirs? Just curious before I contact Moebius again (?)....


I coated my rims with silver enamel then a clear coat and just looked at them after reading your post and they look like they'er melting. I need to take some pictures and send them off to Moebius and see if they can help.:freak:

P.S. I built these about 4 months ago.


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## xsavoie (Jun 29, 1999)

I wonder if Future clear acrylic would react with these flexible plastic parts.Or perhaps acrylic paint could be a neutral medium.


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## RSN (Jul 29, 2008)

I am at the stage of my build where I need tio address this issue. My solution was, and will be, wraping the inner rims with a layer or two of masking tape followed by several layers of super glue. I hope this will put enough "distance" between the plastic and rubber. I will do the same to the tires so they don't eat through the new plastic treads I made.


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## teslabe (Oct 20, 2007)

RSN said:


> I am at the stage of my build where I need tio address this issue. My solution was, and will be, wraping the inner rims with a layer or two of masking tape followed by several layers of super glue. I hope this will put enough "distance" between the plastic and rubber. I will do the same to the tires so they don't eat through the new plastic treads I made.


That sounds like a great idea, let us know if you can get the tire on the rim without the tape getting pulled off. My tires were very hard to get on the rims..... I have a second Chariot to build and need to come up with a fix. I may try Teflon tape and see if that works, wish me luck.......


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## NTRPRZ (Feb 23, 1999)

*Chariot tiresres*

Could you conceivably put one tire/rim together and make resin castings?

Jeff


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## stevezodiak (Aug 27, 2008)

Or do you cast JUST the rim out of resin. Presumably as it wont react to the rubber in the tires? Regardless, this is an issue _*many*_ modelers are going to be dealing down the road and after MONTH"S of working on this model. I'm not sure what the solution is right now.


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## toyroy (Jul 17, 2005)

Metal plating or foil might help. Maybe the RC guys have suitable metal rims. If you know a jeweler, you could get the rims, or the rims & tires together, duplicated in lost wax brass castings.


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## falcondesigns (Oct 30, 2002)

I looked at my lower chassie which was finished a few months ago.I had sprayed my rims silver and the two drive wheels steel.I show no signs of what you discribe


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## GordonMitchell (Feb 12, 2009)

Hi Guys,many years ago I purchased the Airfix/Craftmaster James Bond Aston Martin kit,it has chrome plating on the wheels and like the problem with the chariot the tyres reacted with the plastic,I got some of the wifes clear nail varnish and painted the rims etc,and they have not deteriorated any more.I didnt trim the plastic from the wheel as it was to soft and it has now hardened over the years but I am not going to tacle tacking the wheels apart to sort it,the Toyota 2000 had the same problem only this time I had to repair the bonnet/hood and boot lids as the tyres were lying against these in the box,I will be taking precausions for the chariot just in case when I get round to her,
cheers,Gordon


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## Ductapeforever (Mar 6, 2008)

Oh the horror of it all! My Chariot has begun to eat itself as well. And yes my rims were painted as is the undercarriage. They were airbrushed, and apparently that wasn't enough of a barrier. Now WTF?


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## Ductapeforever (Mar 6, 2008)

WARNING Anyone with a COMPLETED CHARIOT, you need to check it now! After a very intense inspection, it is very apparent that even after painting the wheels and drive sprockets, over time the chemical reaction does NOT STOP! I completed my Chariot months ago, and after reading this thread checked my vehicle and found the wheels almost as soft as butter!
PAINT DOES NOT SERVE AS A BARRIER! Frank or Dave if you are reading this your attention and a different solution is needed. My Chariot is ruined!

Further Test: The problem is the rubber parts, you should see what happens when the parts are placed on bare styrene sheet, such as Evergreen. IT is NOT a REACTION WITH THE METALIC COLORED PLASTIC...IT'S ANY PLASTIC.


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## toyroy (Jul 17, 2005)

Ductapeforever said:


> ...The problem is the rubber parts, you should see what happens when the parts are placed on bare styrene sheet, such as Evergreen. IT is NOT a REACTION WITH THE METALIC COLORED PLASTIC...IT'S ANY PLASTIC.


Moebius indicated before that the problem is the _plasticizer_(the chemical that is added to the plastic that makes it pliable) which is the culprit. So, as you say, the problem parts are the tires and tracks.


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## Tim Nolan (Jul 9, 2008)

I'm assembling my Chariot as we speak, so tonight I will disassemble the drivetrain (which I just assembled last night!). I'm going to shoot my rims with House of Kolors kosmic klear. This automotive grade paint is hard as nails, and I hope it will provide enough of a barrier to prevent this! I wonder if it would help to wash or soak the treads in soapy water or something? Or is it just leaching out of the rubber over time? Also,is it the treads or the tires?!


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## stevezodiak (Aug 27, 2008)

For the record of my production on this,
I started by lightly sanding the tire rims to give them a slight "Tooth", washed the rims *AND* the tires in warm soapy (dawn) dish detergent. Rinsed everything off with clean water. Coated the rims with *two* coats of clear hard shell nail polish. Then air brushed a coating of silver paint onto them. That was all done a little over two months ago. And as stated, they are now melting.


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## toyroy (Jul 17, 2005)

Tim Nolan said:


> I'm assembling my Chariot as we speak, so tonight I will disassemble the drivetrain (which I just assembled last night!). I'm going to shoot my rims with House of Kolors kosmic klear. This automotive grade paint is hard as nails, and I hope it will provide enough of a barrier to prevent this! I wonder if it would help to wash or soak the treads in soapy water or something? Or is it just leaching out of the rubber over time? Also,is it the treads or the tires?!


Tim,
It's both the treads _and_ tires. And yes, the plasticizer is slowly leeching from both. 

Have you used that House of Kolors kosmic klear on model plastic before?


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## Moebius (Mar 15, 2007)

I'll have to do some checking. I have 3 built in the office, one was built approximately a year ago, and there is no damage. The other 2 are 6 months old, and show nothing as far as damage. We'll try to find out what is happening and let everyone know ASAP....


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## drmcoy (Nov 18, 2004)

I checked mine today -- it has been built for at least 4 months if not longer -- I didn't see any melting on the portion of the tires that touches tread, but I did notice that there were some marks/residue left behind on the BASE of the display case I have it in -- I am not sure what the base of the case if made out of -- it appears to be resin, but I don't know (got it from Hobby Town or Michaels -- it was made to hold a football) -- the residue it left on base was "tread" imprints, so it may be the rubber melting or simply having a chemical interaction with the paint and/or material the base is made from.

I will be watching this thread with interest -- I LOVE this model and invested a lot of time building it -- and while I don't expect it to last forever, I certainly want it to last at least 10 years.


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## xsavoie (Jun 29, 1999)

Is the final answer to be that Moebius finally offers two Chariot tracks made of styrene in 4 seperate parts each to be glued together in order to fit on the wheels.Of course if after market individual track links were to be offered,it would be be ideal,but that would cost a lot,I guess.


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## Tim Nolan (Jul 9, 2008)

Yeh, I've been using automotive grade enamels on styrene for years. It has to be primered good first. I'll strip the model paint off first in the purple pond, then a few coats of primer, then some HOK silver basecoat, and then a few coats of HOK klear. Hopefully it will seal it well enough.


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## gareee (Jan 1, 1970)

I wonder if coating the treads in spray silicone protectorant might help?

The painting of the canopy has daunted me enough to delay my build, and I'm knida glad now, as I'd much rather wait a bit, and not have the entire thing ruined in less then a year.

I've had two things with rubber decay on me.. one was a Disney Hercules toy with muscle "flex".. his skin was rubber, and it melted within a years time! He ended up being a gooey zombie Hercules after a pretty short time span.

The other were small rc tanks sold at walmart a few years back. After about 6 months, we anted to break them out and chase the cats with them, and the tread literally crumbled off of them.


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## Trekkriffic (Mar 20, 2007)

I'll be watching this thread with interest. One of the reasons I've delayed getting this kit myself is the tread issues I've read about on this and other sites.


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## Moebius (Mar 15, 2007)

If anyone has good, clear detailed pictures of this, I am in need to send to the factory. You can e-mail me direct at [email protected]. Thanks again, Frank.


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## hedorah59 (Nov 24, 2008)

NTRPRZ said:


> Could you conceivably put one tire/rim together and make resin castings?
> 
> Jeff


I guess it would depend if the resin reacts to the treads like the plastic does. It would be an easy job to cast up a resin set of wheels, but casting the treads would be a little more of a problem...


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## toyroy (Jul 17, 2005)

There were some pictures in the earlier thread, mainly showing the contact damage to the chassis surfaces right out of the box.


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## toyroy (Jul 17, 2005)

NTRPRZ said:


> Could you conceivably put one tire/rim together and make resin castings?


Another thought, at least for static models, are castings of hydrocal or plaster of paris.


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## teslabe (Oct 20, 2007)

Here is a picture of my tire rot, please help. I don't want to start a second kit until something can be done.....:drunk:


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## gareee (Jan 1, 1970)

Oh, wow.. that is bad! Makes ya wonder what the old 60's aurora kits would look like if they used this combo of materials?


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## toyroy (Jul 17, 2005)

gareee said:


> ...Makes ya wonder what the old 60's aurora kits would look like if they used this combo of materials?


A toxic waste superfund site. :devil:


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## teslabe (Oct 20, 2007)

It's worse then it looks, it's very soft and sticky. I don't know what to do, you can't go back and trying to fix it just makes it look worse.....:freak:


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## teslabe (Oct 20, 2007)

toyroy said:


> A toxic waste superfund site. :devil:


Growing up in the "Love Canal" in Niagara Falls, NY, all I can say is, been there,
done that.......


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## Dave Metzner (Jan 1, 1970)

Teslabe. are the wheels in your photos painted? 
If they are painted are they completely painted including the surfaces inside the tires? or only the visible surface???
The build-up of a production kit that I did has the wheels entirely painted and to date we've had no problem with it at all!
I painted the wheels on my build-ups with testors model master gloss white enamel sprayed thru my airbrush and all the surfaces that are in contact with the tires were painted!

Thanks for the pics they are helpful but I'm afraid that they raise as many questions as they answer..

Dave


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## teslabe (Oct 20, 2007)

Dave Metzner said:


> Teslabe. are the wheels in your photos painted?
> If they are painted are they completely painted including the surfaces inside the tires? or only the visible surface???
> The build-up of a production kit that I did has the wheels entirely painted and to date we've had no problem with it at all!
> I painted the wheels on my build-ups with testors model master gloss white enamel sprayed thru my airbrush and all the surfaces that are in contact with the tires were painted!
> ...


Hi Dave, I painted the whole rim like someone in the group had suggested. I used "Tamiya Color" Acrylic paint, #X-11, Chrome Silver. Is that of any help?

Kent.

P.S., I can only think that when pushing the tires onto the rims, paint got removed, they were very hard to get on the rims, even after soaking them in hot water for about 20 min. The paint on the rims had a week to dry before I did anything to them.


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## flyingfrets (Oct 19, 2001)

In my experience, the chemical used to keep the plastic/rubber soft and pliable leeches at a much accelerated rate in higher heat conditions.

I don't know of many folks who store their models in climate controlled vaults, but out of curiosity, under what conditions were these models stored?


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## teslabe (Oct 20, 2007)

I'm going to try Teflon tape on the rims for my next build, it should make the mounting easier and keep the two from reacting....:thumbsup:


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## teslabe (Oct 20, 2007)

flyingfrets said:


> In my experience, the chemical used to keep the plastic/rubber soft and pliable leeches at a much accelerated rate in higher heat conditions.
> 
> I don't know of many folks who store their models in climate controlled vaults, but out of curiosity, under what conditions were these models stored?


My apartment never got hotter then 80 deg F. I have air conditioning......


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## teslabe (Oct 20, 2007)

Dave, I'd be very happy to send these back for you to take a look at, I'd just need a replacement set.


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## Ductapeforever (Mar 6, 2008)

Mine look like Teslabe's, these were painted with Model Master Orange over primer grey. Paint is not a sufficient barrier.


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## gareee (Jan 1, 1970)

flyingfrets said:


> In my experience, the chemical used to keep the plastic/rubber soft and pliable leeches at a much accelerated rate in higher heat conditions.
> 
> I don't know of many folks who store their models in climate controlled vaults, but out of curiosity, under what conditions were these models stored?


Actually that Hercules toy that I mentioned was in a trailer I was in when I was in Florida, and it does get quite hot there during the day in summers.


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## Scorpitat (Oct 7, 2004)

Just to add my 2 cents,

I had problems with one of my treads disintegrating when I put it on my kit, but Moebius sent me replacements, and to date, they look fine.

As for my rims and tires, I assembled my rims, and painted them with Testors "rattle-can" flat white. Once dry, I assembled the tires and rims, and to date they show no signs of problems, so maybe it does make a diiference in paints used, and if you do total coverage of the rim. The rims are glued in place with normal testors model glue. My Chariot sits in a sealed diorama case, next to my Space Pod, so any paint odors, fumes, etc., are contained in there. ( The assembled kits did set and dry for a week before being put in place in the case. ) 

The case is like the one McCoy mentioned. It's an oblong plastic case from Michael's Craft Stores. The base is covered with a sand and white glue terrain, so the Chariot doesn't really touch the bottom of the case.

I'll keep an eye on it, and post if I have any future problems, but for now, it looks like when I built it. I hope these notes help the discussion, and add possible fixes to problems others are having.

Sincerely.
Scorp.

"Boldly GO!" :wave:


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## teslabe (Oct 20, 2007)

It could be just a batch of bad plastic or vinyl mix. I got both of my kits when
they first came out.

P.S., In no way am I ragging on Moebius, they make a great line of kits, I just think this could be an early bug.


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## teslabe (Oct 20, 2007)

Ductapeforever said:


> Mine lokk like Teslabe's, these were painted with Model Master Orange over primer grey. Paint is not a sufficient barrier.


Or it could be just luck.....


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## JohnGuard (Jan 13, 2008)

uh oh! i have a chariot kit. have not build it yet.
are all the treads bad?


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## AJ-1701 (May 10, 2008)

To date my treads are fine and the kit was stored on my shelf in the study through our summer which pulled up days of 39-41 deg celcius which equated to about 50+ degrees inside when were at work and the house was closed up. I have however noticed a bit of bubbling between a couple of the tyres and the rims though the tyres don't feel soft or spongey. All my rims were painted by airbrush with tamiyas flat white and sat for about a week before I got around to putting on the tyres. Though to be honest I could truly say I didn't knock off some paint as the tyres were a bit of a bugger to mount on the rims.


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## Tim Nolan (Jul 9, 2008)

Well, after reading this I went home and unmounted the tires from the rims last night on mine. I just assembled them four days ago, and the inside area around the rim is sticky. The paint has softened (I painted the entire rim surface) somewhat and is coming loose. I used Model Master flat gull grey on them, and it had sat for several days before mounting. I did knock off some paint in small spots mounting them on the tires, because they don't go on real easy! I had also had the entire built chassis sub-assembly sitting on the base of one of those plastic display cases, and when I picked it up the treads had stuck somewhat to it! Just overnight! I'm going to continue on with assembly and wait to see what you guys come up with. I'll strip the rims this weekend and prep them for paint as previously mentioned. As far as the treads, not sure what to do with them. I am going to soak them in some soapy water this weekend, maybe that will help!


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## Moebius (Mar 15, 2007)

To date we have replaced two sets of treads, and one was because it was mounted on the tires upside down and put a strain on the small rubber strips that the tires ride on. There is no problem with treads that we can find. As far as the tire/wheel problem, give us a few days to examine this. I have no problem with replacing anything, but lets wait until we get something that will solve the problem, not just make it last longer. Thanks.


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## Jafo (Apr 22, 2005)

glad i found this post. i bought the masks at WF and am now holding off on building until this issue gets resolved


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## Steve244 (Jul 22, 2001)

some sorta alien fungi no doubt.


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## gareee (Jan 1, 1970)

Steve244 said:


> some sorta alien fungi no doubt.


My excuse I think they should use?

Bloop poop!

(Or the bloop's been "marking" her territory on the wheels.. LOL!)


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

I'm afraid to put the vinyl tires or treads on my model now. 

I've had to deal with sticky/melting vinyl before and the problem will only get worse (with the one exception--so far--being the tires of my batmobile model kit that I forgot to mask and painted over with Testors' Gloss Cote. They were very sticky for a few months but, believe it or not, have now dried up. It could have been the cat hairs that made the difference  )

The chemical reaction just doesn't stop until it's mostly goo. 

Are there any tires and treads of other model kits with more stable vinyl tires that would match up fairly closely? I don't trust any coating of the rims to make a difference if the vinyl tires are that much of a solvent. Being from China, I hope they're not poisonous to the touch as well


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## JohnGuard (Jan 13, 2008)

Steve244 said:


> some sorta alien fungi no doubt.


will Tuff Actin Tanactin work??


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## teslabe (Oct 20, 2007)

Moebius said:


> To date we have replaced two sets of treads, and one was because it was mounted on the tires upside down and put a strain on the small rubber strips that the tires ride on. There is no problem with treads that we can find. As far as the tire/wheel problem, give us a few days to examine this. I have no problem with replacing anything, but lets wait until we get something that will solve the problem, not just make it last longer. Thanks.


I'm not in a hurry, I've been moving in a bigger place, so model building is on hold for a bit, til I get my hobby room set up. Plus I've been working on my FS. I only got as far as painting the rims and putting the tires on, they've been sitting for about 4 months...... It's a good thing I saw this before they
went on the model.......:wave:


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## toyroy (Jul 17, 2005)

I keep thinking of all the tank kits I built back in the 70's. Some of them had natural rubber tracks, which would split apart after a few years. Even some Tamiya kits had them. But their Tiger I had nicely detailed soft tracks, and the road wheels were molded in a tough, slippery plastic which rolled smoothly, yet could be painted.

Obviously, there are some serious chemical engineering considerations involved in making these kits. Don't any chemistry types build Moebius models?


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## SJF (Dec 3, 1999)

Tim Nolan said:


> I'll strip the rims this weekend and prep them for paint as previously mentioned. As far as the treads, not sure what to do with them. I am going to soak them in some soapy water this weekend, maybe that will help!


You know, I would think that this idea would work nicely. Just wash the parts in soapy water. I always do this before building a vinyl figure kit. Or is the chemical reaction within the plastic itself, and not something that can just be washed off?

Sean


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## Ductapeforever (Mar 6, 2008)

The reaction is caused by the formulation that make up the rubber components. It is not something that can be washed away.


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## MonsterModelMan (Dec 20, 2000)

Well, whatever the issue is...it doesn't seem to react to a baggie as I pulled all my rubber parts away from the plastic styrene parts back when the rubber was leaving a mark on the styrene parts. Since then...they have been separated and have not melted anything so a reaction of sorts is happening with some of the kits here when the rubber tires and tracts touch the styrene.

Not sure how to separate them or protect them once I assemble things...I will be watching this thread closely!

MMM


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## jbond (Aug 29, 2002)

Hmmm...I do seem to see a small amount of clear liquid building up between the inside of the tires and the plastic wheels...but nothing happening to the treads.


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## MonsterModelMan (Dec 20, 2000)

Well for all of you... whom like me... like to have one sealed and one built kit, you might want to crack open that sealed kit...

I just opened my second Chariot as the rubber is definately against the styrene parts and leaving tread and tire marks on the plastic styrene. I just separated those rubber parts in this kit and put them in a separate baggie then taped the box back up. I can imagine selling this kit years from now and someone buying it and the rubber has eaten through enough of the plastic to damage the kit. That is why I opened it anyway. 

I'm not sure how much they would be worth or how useful a MIB sealed kit will be if the parts inside are damaged.

MMM


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## xsavoie (Jun 29, 1999)

I wonder if the wheels of the Chariot had been made of ABS plastic,would the results have been different then.


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## Tim Nolan (Jul 9, 2008)

I don't know about all this. In my experience with models over the years, I have seen tires in some of the very old kits from the 60's do this meld thing to parts laying against it, but it seems to take years. Is it also possible that possibly mold release agents on these rubber parts could be the culprit? I just can't imagine that some chemical reaction that acidic is taking place here. Why wouldn't they eat thru the plastic bag if this was the case? I know it's reacting with plastic, but just particular types? I'm no chemist, but I know in the past dealing with resin products, mold release on the surfaces if not properly removed can cause major problems with paint and gluing! I will say, the plastic these kits are made of has a different "feel" to it than styrene in most model car kits I fool with. Is there different types of styrene or what? Painting seems to be an issue at times too, as some of the parts seem to almost "repel" paint in tiny spots. Again, could be mold release on the surface I guess....I do seem to remember having issues with the rubber treads on the old "Rupp Snow Dragster" kit. (recently reissued by the way-check your kit if you have one!) Of course, thats been 30 odd years ago, my memory ain't that great....:tongue:
One last note, I've been using "real" rubber tires on my model cars from MRC and the like for the past several years, which feel just like the tires in this kit, and no problems at all!


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## toyroy (Jul 17, 2005)

xsavoie said:


> I wonder if the wheels of the Chariot had been made of ABS plastic,would the results have been different then.


I don't know if that would spare the wheels or not, but it wouldn't stop the tracks from being a contact paint and varnish stripper.


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## Tim Nolan (Jul 9, 2008)

Hey, I just found this after a Google search:

NEWTON's HOME PAGE 

Plastic and Rubber Interaction 

Welcome Teachers and Students



Plastic and Rubber Interaction 

name John
status other
grade other
location VA

Question - I accidentally discovered an strange phenomena.
I had laid a plastic tape recorder touching a toy rubber mouse. The
plastic in contact with the rubber mouse melted. No distortion of
the rubber mouse at all. I tried a dozen other plastic objects in
contact with the rubber mouse and all but one melted (a plastic
highlighter did not melt). What could be in the rubber toy mouse
that could melt plastic like this without any damage to itself. It
only will take a day for the melting to be visible. The melting will
look like a hot soldering iron was placed on the plastic.
--------------------------------------
John,

I am intrigued by your observation and I wish I could replicate it. 
Could you send me some information of what this toy rubber mouse is 
or how I might get my own? Without knowing much more than what you 
said in your query I can only speculate that there must be some 
solvent, outgassing substance, organic substance, or pet slobber on 
the toy mouse that is causing this effect. Some plastics are indeed 
more soluble than others and it is entirely possible that the toy 
mouse can remain intact while causing other nearby plastics to dissolve.

Let me know,
Greg (Roberto Gregorius)
===================================================================
Wow. That rubber has a huge plasticizer percentage.
Plasticizer is a liquid that dissolves into a solid, helping it to be
rubbery instead of brittle.
Plasticizers for polystyrene tend to dissolve most plastics.
There are polystyene gels and ABS gels these days.
Or maybe it is a more rubber-like compound, such as isoprene.

Your highlighter tube is made of poly-ethylene, or at least poly-propylene,
which hardly dissolve in anything,
if they did it would be in a different liquid which dissolves
styrene.

Look up "solvent parameter".
Solvent-liquids range from "light" to "heavy",
meaning not density but their own internal self-cohesion energy.
Due to thermal mass-action laws, like dissolves like on this scale.

Energy is optimized when lightly-adhering molecules are mixed together in
one blob,
and all the heavily-adherent molecules are together in another.
Roughly speaking.
You will notice that melted wax is not really very sticky. (iffy point)
Wax and hydrocarbon oils are very light solvents and low-parameter
substances.

Acetone is a typical heavy solvent.
It gets most plastics, but cannot touch polyethylene (like your marker pen)
I guess that is why they make marker-pens out of it.
the ink is a solid dye and plastic,
dissolved in heavier solvents like alcohols and glycol ethers

Teflon and related liquids (Fomblin) are the ultimate low-parameter
substances.
Silicone comes close.

On the other end, DMSO and methyl-pyrolidone are heavier, higher-parameter,
than acetone.
Not sure what they dissolve or ignore.

I bet if you heated that mouse to 60C for a year,
it would be 30% smaller. Or ten years in cold running water.
All the plasticizer liquid would creep out and away, and it would shrink.
Get harder, too.

By the way, most plasticizers are reputed to be not too good for the body,
if ingested in significant amounts or exposed repeatedly.

Jim Swenson
====================================================================
Oh, by the way, the reason the mouse doesn't melt from all it's
plasticizer:
it is cross linked.
The molecules are chained together in long tangled polymer strings,
and the strings are occasionally glued to each other too.
The last is "cross-linking".
So the whole mess can get bloated with liquid molecules and be flimsy,
but it cannot ever really turn inside out or be scrambled,
no matter how dissolved it gets. It has a permanent large-scale shape,
until the day harsh chemical reactions break all those links between
strings,
or mechanical shredding occurs.

Jim


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## Cro-Magnon Man (Jun 11, 2001)

Tim Nolan said:


> I don't know about all this. I just can't imagine that some chemical reaction that acidic is taking place here. Why wouldn't they eat thru the plastic bag if this was the case? I know it's reacting with plastic, but just particular types?


Yes, the melting only affects particular types of plastic, Tim. The bag is made of polythene but the kit parts are polystyrene, and solvents or thinners do affect polystyrene, but not polythene. 
A similar situation exists with model glue (styene cement) - it melts and welds model kit parts, and can even eat them away completely, but it seems to have no effect whatsoever on plastic bags or anything else made of polythene, such as Airfix 1/72 figures from soldier sets.


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## Dave Metzner (Jan 1, 1970)

The tires and treads of the Chariot kit are not rubber they are PVC. 
PVC is Vinyl not Rubber
All the tires we used on model car kits at polar lights were also PVC, we never had this problem with tires in car lits @ PL.
All of those car kits were styrene plastic not ABS

The Chariot kits and Polar Lights car kits were produced in the same factory. 
We've been assured that the PVC used in the Chariot parts is the same as in the Polar Lights tires. 

The Difference that I see is that the Chariot kits were shot in silver - 
Silver is achieved by mixing a metalic powder in Clear Styrene - 
All the car kits we produced had wheels molded in General Purpose solid colored Styrene
I believe that the styrene difference could be the prroblem - 
I have a dozen Polar lights cars here that have had wheels and tires together for several years and thes is no sign of this problem on any of them..However if I sit them on top of a clear stryene display case the tires will leave impressions in that clear styrene!

My inclination is to blame the silver plastic that is basically a clear styrene with an additive..

We are trying to solve this problem with our supplier now. 
We will let you know what we find out as soon as we can.

Dave


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## Tim Nolan (Jul 9, 2008)

Sorry if I stepped on any toes Perfessor! As I said, I'm no chemist, just trying to help figure it out! I'm still gonna' try sealing them with HOK clear and see what happens!


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## teslabe (Oct 20, 2007)

Dave Metzner said:


> The tires and treads of the Chariot kit are not rubber they are PVC.
> PVC is Vinyl not Rubber
> All the tires we used on model car kits at polar lights were also PVC, we never had this problem with tires in car lits @ PL.
> All of those car kits were styrene plastic not ABS
> ...


Hi Dave,
I'd be happy to send my parts back for you to look at, just give an address.
If you could please just replace the parts that are melting, I'd be a happy camper.....:wave:


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## xsavoie (Jun 29, 1999)

So,what Moebius is telling us is that we can basically buy the Chariot with confidence but that we should omit putting the tracks on until they get back to us with a solution to this problem.


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## Tim Nolan (Jul 9, 2008)

I don't think thats what Dave is saying at all. These things take time to figure out, and you have to remember he's dealing with guys half way around the globe! Crappo happens. Obviously this was an unforseen problem. This kit is a dream come true, accurate and awesome on all accounts! I think he may be on to something with the coloring! Every notice how parts molded in black seem to be flimsier than most? How red styrene almost always bleeds thru when you spray it another color? Remember all those Revell kits molded with flaked styrene in the 60's and 70's? Those bodies were flimsy as hell, and the model glue would almost always cause warpage problems and bleed right thru them! It's just a freak thing, and I'm sure they will figure it out. In the meantime, I'm continuing my build! There HAS to be a way to seal the rims from the tire/tread compound. I'll let you guys know how I make out with the automotive enamels I use! thumbsup: I wouldn't worry about your parts either. They replaced my parts in record time that the tires melded to! I couldn't have gotten any better service and treatment! I sincerely hate they have had these problems! It's had to have cost them a chunk which really sucks!)


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## Dave Metzner (Jan 1, 1970)

What I can tell complete confidence is that I have a partially assembled 1st test shot sitting in a box here that was built in April of 2008 and that the styrene wheels have only a coat of gray automotive primer between them and the PVC tires and that there is no sign of any melting as seen in the photos from two members of the forum. I just drug that old test shot out to see if there was any sign ot the problem. Not the first hint of any problem! (there is an ubuilt 1st test shot that shows signs of tires / tracks marking / softening on unpainted styrene parts (I just got done bagging all the PVC parts in that one!

I can also tell you that Frank has two build-ups that I did one is over a year old (built in April of 2008) and the other (built for I-Hobby last year is 7 months old) and a third one from another source and non of those models is showing the problem....

My understanding of the probelm is that the PVC tires can cause softening of the styrene. Logic dictates that if it happens on one kit it will happen on all kits...unless the paint on my finished kits is preventing the problem...

What I don't understand is why we have four built up models - two of them over a year old and the third 7 months old (I can"t put an age on the fourth one) none of these four models shows the problem...
I know what kind of paint is on the three that I did - One has just gray primer the second test shot has gray primer and white testors enamel while the last one is built from a production kit and has just a coat of white paint

Why do none of these build-ups show signs of this problem...
I'd say that a good barrier between the styrene and the PVC would prevent the problem.
What makes a good barrier?? Super Glue?? lacquer based automotive primer?? (that's the primer I used on the two test shots) Testors model master enamels?? I don't know right now...

I want to see the bad parts in person and send them to the factory... 
I can't guarantee a fix until I understand why it hasn't happened to the buildups I've done... 

Who among you has a complete model of the Chriot that shows no sign of the dreaded wheel rot? surely there must be some of you that have year old build-ups that have heathy wheels - tell me - how did you paint your wheels ? Did you coat the wheels with super glue before putting the tires on??

I know of four models with out wheel rot, there must be more out there!

Dave


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

xsavoie said:


> So,what Moebius is telling us is that we can basically buy the Chariot with confidence but that we should omit putting the tracks on until they get back to us with a solution to this problem.


Yes. That is exactly what Moebius is telling you.


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## Dave Metzner (Jan 1, 1970)

What I'm asking is who has finished Chariot models that have been sitting on the shelf finished for 6-7 months without any sign of a problem and then I want to know how you painted / coated your wheels....

Dave


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## Steve H (Feb 8, 2009)

Well, why isn't anyone thinking that maybe the factory in China may have changed the specific 'blend' of PVC at some point in the production run, because maybe it was cheaper for the factory and increased their profit margin by a few percent?

Happens all the time it seems from the news, why not possible now?

Could some melty tracks be donated by willing fans for testing by Moebius? I mean serious chemical testing, not just "yep, that's melted, sure 'nuf"


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## Dave Metzner (Jan 1, 1970)

The Question regarding PVC formula has already been asked! 

As a matter of fact it's just been asked again because it seems that the problem is likely in the PVC parts

The factory has no reason to lie to us or to cut corners to "increase profit margins a couple of percentage points" They have produced die cast cars with PVC tires on plastic wheels and styrene car kits for several years so this is not their first experience with PVC tires on styrene wheels.
As with much of the rest of the world, our factory is trying very hard to keep customers happy in a competitive environment.

If they made an error it was not an attempt to "pull a fast one" as they know full well that we can take our business elsewhere very easily.

We're doing everything we can to find solutions to this. Unfortunately I can't just snap my fingers and have a solution - 
I don't even know for sure that every kit out there has this problem! What I really know for sure right now is that I have what appears to be two pretty obvious cases and two or three more probable cases of wheels being eaten by tires. I hope that I have two sets of bad wheels and tires on the way to me right now.
Until I have examples of the probelm in hand it's pretty difficult to analize the problem.

As both Frank and I have already explained the four build-ups we have are no help in this, as they don't show any signs of the problem!
From the evidence I have right now, It would seem to me that it is possible that a substantial number of kits have been sucessfully built and show no signs of this problem - since all three of the kits that I've personally assembled don't have it.

We have made every effort to assure everyone that we will find out what's wrong and we will provide a solution to the problem as soon as we can. 


Dave


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## Steve H (Feb 8, 2009)

I'm not suggesting that everything isn't being done to find an answer and develop a solution, but, look, just look at all the problems discovered with factories in China. Don't you think the company that made those 'aqua dot' craft toys felt just like you? "Oh, they don't want to lose our business" and all. Lead paint on Hot Wheel cars? YEESH! And how long was that factory making the cars for Mattel? It could be as simple as some mid level guy getting a kickback from a supplier on a run or even just a guy on the shop floor putting the wrong raw plastic box on the feed rack, these things DO happen!

The problem with melting exists. It is seemingly NOT consistent as in every single kit which says to me, from a purely logic point of view, that the main variable, the PVC used in the treads and road wheel tires, is the problem.


Believe you me, this is a constant issue in many toy discussions. GI Joe collectors have watched their vintage rubber scuba suits melt and destroy plastic accessories, and Japanese Toy collectors have horror stories of rubber treads melting wheels, PVC accessories melting to styrofoam 'packing' trays and all that.

I hope it works out. I know Moebius is trying hard to figure this out, I have faith in you guys, really I do.


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## toyroy (Jul 17, 2005)

If Tim's rubber mouse post did nothing else for me(aside from warning of the hazards of pet slobber :freak:,) it made it clear just how _complicated_ the chemistry of these products is. 

I think Moebius is on the right track, collecting examples of product failure. After getting enough such samples, and being convinced of a material incompatibility, I'd find a chemical engineering consultant who is highly experienced in this particular field, bite the bullet, and pay for an hour of his/her time. I know- it'll cost _SERIOUS_ money.

All the best, guys.


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## otto (Jan 1, 1970)

I used to collect Marx Johnny West figures. There were like three types of plastic used in those. A soft rubbery material for the hats and belts , saddles and bridles and vests. A harder plastic for the bodys and guns rifles ect. and polystyrene horses. The rubbery saddles and bridles did the same things to the plastic horses. Seems it took a few years with that material. But melt marks were very common. Doesnt really help with this situation, but its a fairly common occourance in the toy world.


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## Lou Dalmaso (Jul 13, 2004)

Dave,
The test shot I built has absolutely no signs of melt. But I recal that the test shot was done in Black not silver and I also believe you changed the tires ( the design, if not the materials) so I can say that my test shot is not a fair comparison to the current issue.

the second kit built was "off the shelf" so it is a fair comparison. The only thing I did to those rims was to give them a spray coat of Metallizer Magnesium. I didn't use any glue between the tires and the rims. I can only report that there is what looks like the very smallest amount of what you could possibly term "melt" I didn't even see it until I took a picture and blew it waaay up on my computer.

ps this picture is over sharpened to magnify detail


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## Gilusions (Apr 25, 2006)

Lou,
I like what you did!
I was hoping to show a set that I was working on to show at Wonderfest.
but got delayed on other projects 

But I will have an all resin tracks and wheels in about 2 weeks I will post pictures soon

Gil


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Tim Nolan said:


> > By the way, most plasticizers are reputed to be not too good for the body,
> > if ingested in significant amounts or exposed repeatedly.
> >
> > Jim Swenson



SEE THERE! I knew it! Another poisonous substance from China! :drunk:


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

On a serious note, it occurs to me that there may be a more slightly more complicated situation going on here than it first appears:

The PVC in these tires may be just a weeeeee bit more reactive than others manufactured by the company. There may be no problem if the tires come into contact with normal unpainted styrene. The formula of silver plastic may have been the primary factor in causing the melt reaction there after all.

It is possible  that the PVC tires might just be reacting to paint that has not been fully cured. If the rims are painted with oil-based paint and there's still some drying left to do, it could be that the tires wind up coming into contact with uncured oil paint. THAT may be causing the reaction. (Or perhaps it's just the leaching out of certain drying agents within the oil-based paint into the PVC that's the problem.) 

That problem would probably still be cured by changing the PVC formula since this doesn't happen on the other companies car models where--on at least a small percentage of the models being built--the rims are painted rather than using the chrome rims. 

BUT, there may no problem with this reaction occurring in those cases where the rims are painted AND have been more fully cured (several days).

OR there may be no problem if the paint itself is less reactive as is the case with some non-oil-based primers and paints (especially, I would assume, acrylic based substances) 

There are a LOT of other variables involved that might be looked in terms of paint formulae that have reacted with the PVC which would change according to brand and category of paint. 

HOWEVER, I would agree that the PVC formula is the first, most logical thing to look at considering the other factors and anecdotal evidence presented here where other model kits have had no such problem with PVC tires. 

EVEN IF the PVC is the culprit, there may be a cure for the problem without having to issue replacements for all the treads and tires out there. It may be something as simple as using fully dried acrylic paint on surfaces that come into contact with the PVC.


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## MonsterModelMan (Dec 20, 2000)

Dave Metzner said:


> The Question regarding PVC formula has already been asked!
> 
> As a matter of fact it's just been asked again because it seems that the problem is likely in the PVC parts
> 
> ...


Thanks Dave and I know that Frank, you and others are working to find a solution. My concern (which I have kind of addressed with a baggie for now) is that I am getting melting marks with the 2 kits not even being built yet. 

I think that if this kit is to get another run produced that those PVC parts need to be separated from the styrene parts in a separate bag. And then address what the root issue is...either the silver clear styrene being used or other...I guess that still needs to be determined.

MMM


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## Moebius (Mar 15, 2007)

All current production kits have the pvc/styrene parts seperated. I'm not sure why "tracks" keep being brought up, but so far I haven't seen a set of tracks that has been damaged by any sort of melt. There is no need for track replacements.

As mentioned earlier, we're working on this. China is on a different clock than us, so it's not easy to get an instant answer. We're aware of the problem. We're working on it. When we have an answer we'll post it and work with everyone to make their kit "melt free". Not sure there is much more that Dave or I can do at this point, so please be patient and let us get it solved. Thanks and sorry, Frank.


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## steve123 (Feb 9, 2009)

If anybody is worried about this. The solution is simple, paint or coat the plastic parts in future. This problem has come up a few times in the history of plastic models. Oh, wait the collectors are worried. seperate the parts.

Steve


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## Seaview (Feb 18, 2004)

Well, I just checked my February-built Chariot and everthing is A-OK. All I did was wash the mold release and directly spray the wheels with Testor's Classic White, heated the tires in hot water and popped them on.


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## Dave Metzner (Jan 1, 1970)

Thanks to everyone who has posted to this thread. 
Frank and Dave are working to solve the problem with the chariot kit and insure that there is no repeat of this same issue in future kits.
If you have a Chariot kit that is showing signs of melted plastic wheels where the PVC tires meet the plastic rim PLEASE PM / e mail Frank or Dave via Hobbytalk.
At this point there is no real reason to continue to discuss this issue here.
As Frank has promised Moebius Models will post an announcement regarding solutions to this problem just as soon as possible.
Thank you all for your patience. 
At this time I'm going to close this thread

PM Moderator


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