# Farewell to the Modeling Elitists



## Guest (Apr 9, 2011)

This is my last post here on Hobby Talk. What started out as a great experience turned sour when I became embroiled in an ideological dispute started by aggressively opinionated members who took the opportunity to spill their vitriol, obviously accumulated over years, on my threads accusing me of being a thief, immoral and warped, all for simply building a model.

When I joined Hobby Talk I had hopes that this forum would be a refuge from a world full of bigotry and bias and personal accusations and attacks. These forum crusaders, over some lost cause of the past, pilloried me as if I had single-handedly destroyed their favorite kit manufacturer because I bought a “recast” of a kit that hasn’t been in production for over 10 years from a company likewise defunct. Because others in the 90s bought these “recast” kits, supposedly a factor in causing the company to fail, I, in 2011, am to blame. They turned their decade-old, seething hatred of these foreign imitators on me with a vengeance, quoting me chapter and verse to show me that my purchase was somehow complicit in the demise of a company that expired over ten years ago.

Instead I was told that if I couldn’t afford to pay collector’s prices for what I wanted to build I was not to build a facsimile. In no way was I to attempt to emulate the enjoyment, now reserved for these elitists who can afford to work on “authentic” versions of, say, the Horizon Frankenstein, for example. No. If you can’t pay, you can’t play. Your efforts are wasted, they said, unless you can produce a rare, expensive and OOP kit for us to judge. And we will be the judge of whether your contribution is acceptable.

It made no difference to these rabid ideologues that ninety-nine percent of the kits I’ve purchased since I started this hobby two years ago have come from current producers: Polar Lights, Moebius, Round 2, etc. But that, apparently, is not good enough. Notwithstanding that show of support for today’s manufacturers, I am a thief. I suppose this is analogous to buying a modern print of a painting by Rembrandt to enjoy. Though he no longer paints, I should not support printers (some Asian – gasp!) who make inferior copies of his work. It somehow puts current “garage” painters out of business. I should either spend all my time trolling ebay in the hopes of finding an actual Rembrandt I can bid on (and doubtless lose) or else buy something I don’t really want painted by somebody else. I must not try to derive enjoyment from getting the closest thing I can afford in lieu of the real deal that is no longer being made.

Sorry, folks. That sort of elitist bigotry is not why I joined Hobby Talk. To the many folks who focused and commented on my build and finish work, I thank you. I’m sorry your forum is populated by some holier-than-thou “enthusiasts” with never-ending axes to grind but they won’t be grinding them on me. 

For those who still have the capacity for fairness you may find these excerpts from George T. Stephenson’s comprehensive article in issue 49 of Amazing Figure Modeler, entitled “The Vinyl Frontier”, enlightening in that it spells out _all _the factors that led to the demise of Horizon and others:

“In the mid-90’s, AMT/ERTL announced its plans to produce vinyl figure kits…like Horizon and GEOmetric…but at $19.99 promised to be considerably more affordable…. Shortly after…Revell/Monogram acquired licenses and announced their plans to also market vinyl figure kits…. Some thought…hobby giants entering the vinyl kit market would bring unwanted attention from copyright holders, would ratchet up the price of licenses…and would put…smaller manufactures out of business with retail prices much lower…while paying much more for licenses than [the smaller manufacturers] could afford…. The retail prices were…low enough to cool distributors off what…smaller vinyl kit companies had to offer. Kits made in America and Japan could not compete with the low production costs the big boys got from their Chinese manufacturers and…the studios and other copyright holders began insisting on more money for licenses…since the big boys like Revell and AMT could pay…. Between 1996 and ’97 sales of Screamin’, Horizon and GEOmetric vinyl kits had begun to slip. Hobby distributors expressed openly their dissatisfaction with the quality of the AMT kits…. Revell expressed its own disappointment with weaker than expected sales of their vinyl kits. After only a year or so, Revell signaled its plans to get out of vinyl kit production…. Then, to add insult to injury, Asia-based recasters took a huge bite out of overseas sales of vinyl kits and a leading comic distributor _knowingly _sold thousands of vinyl recasts all over Europe…. Screamin’, Horizon and GEOmetric stubbornly hung on, hoping for a hobby industry rebound…. Horizon learned the hard way that a successful film does not guarantee a profitable model kit. Coupled with the obligations arising from their expensive Marvel and DC licenses, Horizon’s defensive licensing strategy…spelled doom for the company…. Bootlegs, hobby industry contraction, other market forces and an ugly squabble between [Screamin’ and Kaiyodo] would eventually spell the end of [Screamin']…. GEOmetric…grew frustrated with Asian recasts and even more frustrated with apathetic licensors. Exasperated by increasingly expensive licenses and production costs, GEO began to struggle in a contracting hobby market…. Twentieth Century Fox and Paramount Pictures… ignored…concerns and complaints about the recasts…. As the millennium drew to a close, licensing and vinyl kit production by American companies had become too expensive…. Hobby distributors had trouble paying their bills…. Hobby sales were down in all categories. Personal computers and video games were what interested young folks. Why pay $50 or more for a figure you had to build and paint when you could buy an excellent action figure for $15….”

So what accounted for the vinyl kit makers’ demise? AMT/ERTL, Revell, higher license fees, crummy vinyl kits from AMT, cheaper production costs enjoyed by the “big boys”, weakening sales figures, Asian recasts and a leading comic distributor selling them, Fox and Paramount refusing to address license infringement issues, licensing speculation, personal computers, video games and action figures. (One factor the author failed to mention was me!) If you purists are going to go after me for buying a recast in 2011 of a decades old OOP kit, then logically and morally you should likewise object to the purchase of any AMT/ERTL kit or the posting of any them on this forum, and never buy anything made in China, and refuse to purchase any comics or other merchandise from the unnamed “leading distributor” or from Marvel or DC, and refuse to support Fox or Paramount by not buying their DVDs, attending their films or watching their TV shows, and refuse to buy or use a personal computer, and refuse to buy or play video games and never, ever buy an action figure. They all led to the demise of your beloved companies at least as much as recasters did. Not willing to do any of that, huh? Selective hypocrites. 

MODERATOR: You may discontinue my membership at your earliest convenience.


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## teslabe (Oct 20, 2007)

One thing I learned since joining HT is that the majority of members here are very nice people and willing to help a builder out. But there are a very very small number at are just bitter and sarcastic and in no mooed to be helpful, just interested in criticizing........ I just pass right over their posts and never dignify them with a response, to me it's just static. If you leave they won, if you stay you now become their irritant. Besides few of them actually build anything so why would their comments carry any weight what so ever. I just thicken my skin and move on....... Hope you reconsider and stick around.......:wave:


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## Todd P. (Apr 12, 2007)

I guess I'll count myself among the elitist bigot etc. crowd and offer no apologies. Buying or selling recasts is damaging to the hobby, and I know for a fact that George Stephenson agrees. There are much, much bigger issues in the world, no doubt. However, since we come here to discuss the hobby, the recast debate is going to come up.

I am familiar only with the vinyl Frankenstein thread, in which I found the most vitriolic comments were NOT from the people who opposed recasting. Perhaps I missed something elsewhere.


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## falcondesigns (Oct 30, 2002)

"Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone"


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## Desslock (Mar 5, 2011)

I'm new to this forum - can someone explain what "recasts" are so that I can better understand the self-indulgent, melodramatic first post?


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## Steve244 (Jul 22, 2001)

unlicensed copies cast from someone else's original work (which itself may be an unlicensed copy of copyrighted intellectual property). Great offense is taken over the former but not the latter for some strange reason.

(ducks and hides)


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## LGFugate (Sep 11, 2000)

Maybe it's best to let him go. After reading the entire thread a couple of times, I see MM being dreadfully rude to people asking valid questions about his model, then a lot of support for MM, trying to help him get a real Horizon Franky, then more vitriol from MM, and somewhere in there, a rather preachy post about the evils of recasting.

It's clear from his posts that MM has a problem with even constructive critiques, and his rabid reponses don't help his cause any.

So, Model Maker, from someone who would never even consider the title of "Modeling Elitist" for himself, farewell, good luck, live long and prosper. 

BTW, I thought your model was very well done, for the record.

Larry :wave:


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## rusty nail (Aug 9, 2008)

WOW, if *ONLY* recasters would go away this fast!:tongue: Good luck on the home front, may you model a little more smartly.:thumbsup:


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

I'm gonna go see if I have any recasts in my stash.
And build one.


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## g_xii (Mar 20, 2002)

John P said:


> I'm gonna go see if I have any recasts in my stash.
> And build one.


Now THAT was funny!!!!! I agree -- I'm gonna go do the same exact thing!

--Henry


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## mcdougall (Oct 28, 2007)

Mcdee:wave:


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## Auroranut (Jan 12, 2008)

....bye.....

Chris.


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## plasticmouse (Nov 21, 2008)

Model Maker, so long and hope you continue building those classics and doing them so well. I agree, the recasters say we are stealing from the owners so really all kits are the same. At least that is what they say. Good luck.


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## IanWilkinson (Apr 23, 2010)

I only have one small thing to add to this post, in the near future if you can get hold of an original Horizon kit that you have the re-cast of, then just compair the two items together.. as it's not only the original company who suffers - it's also yourself!.. i own all the Screamin Hellraider kits, and time and again people send me the recast crap from Asia to paint up!.. what utter crap they are!.. i allways send them back the way they came, this is usualy smaller than original size, lots of detail missing, half the kit extras also missing, pit holes in the vinyl... also has anybody thought all the recast stuff from Asia might just be paying for drugs and arms??.. heven knows whats going on over there!..


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## FalcignoArt.com (Dec 5, 2010)

So let me get this straight:

You posted your built-up of a Frankenstein kit.

A bunch of people said stuff like "great job"

A few other members said stuff like "Great Job" as well but asked you a few honest questions about the odd look of the SCULPTURE (not your paintjob mind you, but the sculpture!)

You played completely dumb about the questions being asked. You chose to do two things with your responses. 1. You got defensive and irate with the people asking questions, putting words in their mouths and claiming they were attacking your work...which they CLEARLY weren't.

2. The second thing you did was knowingly lie & treat everyone like we were stupid. Need the facts? OK, you LIED by stating the head was distorted because of your camera lens, then you LIED again and said it was because of the way you painted the hair. Then you LIED a third time...but I'm not gonna point that lie out, let's see if you can find it and own up to it yourself.

So you see dude, you knew ALL ALONG that you bought a recast, but instead of just stating that, you decided to attack the people who asked questions about where you got the kit. Then you go and start a new thread calling those people Elitists! Really? Read your initial post and listen to the melodrama you are trying to drum up. Using words like Bigotry is a gross exaggeration of the truth, like much of what you have written.

No one here is attempting to be the model police nor are we telling you what to do. The truth is, if you had more than one vertebrae in your spine, you would have just stated EARLY on that you like recasts and don't care if it upsets anyone. But no...you made up more excuses than the average presidential campaign and the moment you realized how silly it all sounded, you ( or was it your guilty conscience) flipped out and started being rude and obnoxious.

However, there IS a major difference between you and I, and it's not that I think I'm in any way "better" than you. The difference is that I take responsibility for the things I say & do. It's quite clear to anyone reading your rantings that you don't take an ounce of responsibility for your own actions, but in the end I must admit you have made one major point...unfortunately... it's located at the top of your skull.

Have a swell day. :thumbsup:


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## Facto2 (Nov 16, 2010)

I’ve never understood the melodramatic need for a grand exit speech. If you don’t like a board just don’t post to it anymore.


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## Facto2 (Nov 16, 2010)

FalcignoArt.com said:


> So let me get this straight:
> 
> You posted your built-up of a Frankenstein kit.
> 
> ...


What Mike said.


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## iamweasel (Aug 14, 2000)

Facto2 said:


> I’ve never understood the melodramatic need for a grand exit speech. If you don’t like a board just don’t post to it anymore.


Sometimes it helps some folks get stuff off their chests...pretty much clear in this case.


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## robiwon (Oct 20, 2006)

Well I have said this before in other threads of this nature and I will say it again here. For all of those who have a problem with anything being recast you all better get your pitchforks and head for every garage kit company here making unlicensed kits of star trek, star wars, BSG, horror classics, etc because none of them paid for the rights and are all thieves for stealing from the films/model makers/makeup artist/etc. I expect all of you to boycot these resin manufacturers in numerous threads and to thrash every person who builds a resin model of an X-Wing fighter, Galactica, etc............

It's all just a bit too silly to attack anyone like this, on either side. People criticise him for buying a recast, but turn their head toward all the resin manufacturers that are stealing from the movie companies.

If you open the door, you gotta walk all the way thru.....................


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## FalcignoArt.com (Dec 5, 2010)

Robiwon...

OK, so: Here's making a Garage Kit in a nutshell:

I spend 40+ hours sculpting a monster with my own hands based on a scene from a film I love, then I pay to have it molded and cast in a small run of resin, then sell it to a handful of collectors who also love that kit...in the end making enough money to possibly fund my next sculpture but also take the chance of coming out with less money than I started with.

Ok, so: Here's making a Recast Kit in a nutshell:

Hey, I'm an opportunist and that Predator sculpture is cool & looks like it'll sell well. Let me get one casting, then I'll make an inferior mold of it, since I don't care about the quality, I'll cast it in the cheapest crap I can find. Then, since I didn't pay a sculptor to do the work, I'll blow these things out for $14 dollars plus $30 shipping! Do I care if the sap buying it has a hard time fitting it all together? Hell no! Do I care if the original sculptor loses sales of his original rendition due to my cheap copies? Hell no! Since I bootleg anything I can get my hands on...it doesn't matter to me what happens to any of the original producers who put love and time into it! SHUT UP & GIVE ME YOUR $14.

My question to you is...how the hell is that the same thing?????

I swear, I refuse to argue about this, but seriously...how could you say it's the same thing???



Lastly, GK creators started out and continue to thrive because we are all fans. Fans produce the stuff and fans buy the stuff. That said, I know full well that we are infringing on Copyrights when we create certain kits. Many properties are public domain (Nosferatu etc), others are too obscure to track down the owner and others are too huge to ever consider granting little guys like us licenses. So, if we choose to make a GK of a film or comic character we all know it's a gamble. If we get a C&D from the rightful owner,that's PART OF THE RISK. When it happens, the producer/artist most always apologizes and ceases production immediately.
I know I've gotten them and retired the kit in question with a smile. I really hope at least some of what I've written has helped you to see the differences between original kits and recasts.

I'm not one to EVER tell people what to do, if you buy recasts, that's fine with me. Just have the balls to own up to it.


And just so we are clear on the reason this whole thing started: ...no one was criticizing MM for buying a recast! Several people wanted to point out that the Horizon kits had better detail & proportions, while also pointing out that recasts in general are poor quality & contributed to the demise of several major model companies. He twisted the entire thing into a trumped-up attack on his modeling skills.


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## apls (Dec 5, 2005)

Amen, A lot a of people bought a kit of Robert DeNiro from the movie "Taxi Driver", was he, Columbia Pictures or anyone else paid? Just because the kit was called, "Cabbie" or "Travis" (Bickel), doesn't make it legal. Mike Hill did a very good kit of Clint Eastwood from "A Fist Full Of Dollars", he called it "A Fist Full Of Resin", I didn't see that movie. I have both of these kits. The recast kits are terrible from asia, goes without saying. Aurora, the sainted Aurora, in the 70's would change the name of some kits so they wouldn't have to pay the studios, are they theives as well?


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## Facto2 (Nov 16, 2010)

Hey, Robiwan.

Did you look at the pictures and read the thread? Did you read Mike’s post which sums it all up? No one was attacking Model Maker until he became belligerent to others. 

Leaving all the other stuff you mentioned out, which is usually the recaster fan’s way of muddying the water, I don’t care that he bought a recast of the Horizon. The finished kit, despite the nice paint job, still looks like dog pooh. If that’s what he wants on his shelf, more power to him. I don’t give a rat’s butt. I’ve said it before, you get what you pay for. But, the lies (which Mike also pointed out) don’t go over very well with me and they shouldn’t go over very well with anyone else.

I have a very simple rule when it comes to guys who are supporters of recasts. I just won’t sell to them.


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## James Tiberius (Oct 23, 2007)

Dude, there is no reason you should leave. If people have a problem with your modeling subjects and where they came from, then its their problem. 

Anybody remember re-casts made of resin of lots of the old Aurora stuff? Anybody? If you did make one, you have to leave this board.

And if they really have that much of a beef with you then they can get a life.

I'd buy a recast if it was 1/3 the price off of ebay in a heartbeat, just like I am with R2. Which are re-casts of old AMT stuff. So even the big boys do it.


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## g_xii (Mar 20, 2002)

Guys --

I think this thread is getting a WHOLE lot more attention than it deserves. Obviously we have some folks with differing opinions. Those opinions are not going to be easily changed or reversed! 

Who cares who lied, cheated, bought the wrong thing, etc. It's all water under the bridge, so lets just move on. People are going to do what they want to, and people have opinions about that as well. At this point, we're really just rehashing and rehashing right now, and it's getting boring. Sharing buildups and techniques are much more interesting, don't you think?

--Henry


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## robiwon (Oct 20, 2006)

Boy, I'm glad we can edit posts now. I give up..........................


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## James Tiberius (Oct 23, 2007)

I'll just steer clear of facto2 and his cronies in my build ups and when I'm learning painting techniques. I thought MM's kit looked great knock off or not.


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## INVISIBLE MAN (Jul 9, 2010)

What he has is a recast. MM if you didnt know when you bought it no big deal but you know now. No one attacked you on your thread members were simply asking ? about the sculpt not your paint up.

You can clear this up by posting a photo of the bottom of his boots.


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## FalcignoArt.com (Dec 5, 2010)

James, I agree with you, recast or not, MM's Franky looked very cool. Which was what I posted in his original thread.

And since you wrote above that "I'd buy a recast if it was 1/3 the price off of ebay in a heartbeat, just like I am with R2."

I thought I'd give you an even cheaper way to get an R-2, just decorate a large vitamin bottle with a blue sharpie, glue on the ball from a roller ball deodorant as the head, and use some aluminum foil and paperclips to detail the metallic parts. I realize it won't look as good as the real thing, but it'll only cost you $3.50.

Now that I see where I stand, I'll move.


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## Facto2 (Nov 16, 2010)

James Tiberius said:


> I'll just steer clear of facto2 and his cronies...


I got no problem with that.  Boy, I didn't even know I had cronies. :wave: Is there an over the counter drug for that or do I need to get a prescription?


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## Auroranut (Jan 12, 2008)

James, NOBODY here has knocked MMs painting skills!!! There have only been compliments on his work! 
Can you imagine how much better his work would be if he was building and painting the ORIGINAL kits instead of cheap mismoulded and miscast crap?!?!?
John, Mike, Dan and others have tried to guide him and give him a helping hand and yet he sees it as a mindless attack on his skills?!? He obviously doesn't care about the kit producers or the sculptors so what's the point in trying to appease or guide him any more?
MM, you're a talented painter- it's a crying shame you can't be bothered to hone your skills on quality vinyl kits....

Chris.


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## robiwon (Oct 20, 2006)

James was refering to Round 2 not R2-D2. :wave:


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## wolfman66 (Feb 18, 2006)

g_xii said:


> Guys --
> 
> I think this thread is getting a WHOLE lot more attention than it deserves. Obviously we have some folks with differing opinions. Those opinions are not going to be easily changed or reversed!
> 
> ...


Henry,Its only going to be brought up again and again if certain members here keeping turning a blind eye to recasts and others who feel its ok to buy them without a care in the world of what its doing to the Hobby.So all ask is let this thread stay open as the people who make the Garage kits have a legit gripe with MM and I support these guys 100% and their stand against anyone who supports or buys a recasts and posts it on this or any other board!


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## FalcignoArt.com (Dec 5, 2010)

Fair enough Robiwon, but that still doesn't change his self protested stance of buying recasts on EBay in a heartbeat if they are 1/3 the price. He doesn't care about quality, he cares about getting it cheap. That's fine with me, because some people have high standards while others have low ones.

I'm sure most people would spend $3 to get a decent quality taco while a few other people would be happy spending 50 cents on one that just happened to have a few teaspoons of dirt & lint wrapped up with the meat.

Pardon me for being in the former category.


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## FalcignoArt.com (Dec 5, 2010)

Wolfman...I guess yer' one of the crazy cronies as well!

Thanks for speaking up about something I've always felt was such a simple thing to understand.


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## robiwon (Oct 20, 2006)

O.K, that guy in China making money off of a company without paying them is wrong. The copies are crap.


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## wolfman66 (Feb 18, 2006)

FalcignoArt.com said:


> Wolfman...I guess yer' one of the crazy cronies as well!
> 
> Thanks for speaking up about something I've always felt was such a simple thing to understand.


No problem and yap definitly one of those crazie cronies:lol:.


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## ClubTepes (Jul 31, 2002)

I read the complete Frankenstein thread in question and from my perspective, people came down way too hard on Model Maker.
I don't see anywhere where he intentionally lied about anything. He didn't offer information, but he never lied.
One accused 'lie' was about head distortion. Without seeing and original kit in person, the head does appear smaller than JohnP's head example.
HOWEVER, there is indeed some lens distortion in the close up shot.
If this was a cel-phone camera, then it traditionally has a wide angle to the lens and while my particular cel phone can shoot extremely close I'm going to assume others will as well and this distortion is totally expected.
His 'go crap on someone elses thread' was a little much. However I'd be a little PO'd myself from comments like those from Facto2.

I love the Garage kit industry, and Robiwon and Falcigno are both right.
Almost no GK kit carries a license so anyone who produces one is guilty of a certain amount infringement. Even a plastic company has been doing some stuff unlicensed. But I support it all. Mainly as rebelling against overly greedy entities like Lucasfilm.

I agree, recasting is bad and those kits have quality issues. But if a kit is out of production for a number of years along with the whole company, give the guy a break. Putting MM into the same catagory of those who buy recasts of currently available kits is totally unfair. 

There are a couple of OOP subjects that I'd like to have. Have I bought a recast of one yet - no. But I might, if there is no indication of the original producer making another run.

I have produced one resin kit. If someone recasted it next week, I'd be justifiably angry. However, years from now when my molds dried out and I really didn't feel like running another batch, I'm not sure how justified my feelings would be. I might be a little flattered that someone still liked it.

MM's thread was about his work, not the origin of the kit.


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## Facto2 (Nov 16, 2010)

ClubTepes said:


> However I'd be a little PO'd myself from comments like those from Facto2.


Okay, I’ll play. What exactly did I post that was offensive in the original thread? Specific quotes would be great.  Then I'll know how to respond.


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## deadmanincfan (Mar 11, 2008)

Wolfie, Mike, John...I guess you'd better put me on the cronies list too...although I did like MM's painting...


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## g_xii (Mar 20, 2002)

wolfman66 said:


> Henry,Its only going to be brought up again and again if certain members here keeping turning a blind eye to recasts and others who feel its ok to buy them without a care in the world of what its doing to the Hobby.So all ask is let this thread stay open as the people who make the Garage kits have a legit gripe with MM and I support these guys 100% and their stand against anyone who supports or buys a recasts and posts it on this or any other board!


Oh, don't get me wrong here -- I don't feel too kindly towards the recasters! I'm just a bit tired of the discussion here, which does not seem to be progressing further than "I agree with (NAME)", or "I don't agree with (NAME) and here's what I think" over and over and over again. 

However, I don't have control over this forum, so I'm of no threat at all!!!  Have at it as far as I'm concerned -- but it will get shut down if folks continue to get "personal" and snarky towards each other... I know the mods don't like that! Nothing wrong with a civil discussion, though, that can be interesting and educational, especially to those that don't know much about the recasting "debate" in the first place...

--Henry


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## deadmanincfan (Mar 11, 2008)

PM for you, Henry m'lad...


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## dreamer 2.0 (May 11, 2007)

'Fraid it's never _going_ to progress, as: a) most have their opinions formed and are unlikely to think otherwise - we all stress different points as salient to us personally; b) it's always gonna come up again as long as there's a BB and modelers, evident already as some have said they hadn't heard of recasting before (hell,_ I_ bought a recast before I knew what to watch out for - no aplogies, it's part of the learning process); c) human nature being what it is, someone's always gonna be contentious or cranky, or at least come across that way intended or not; and d), personal opinion from observation, it's a good thing for a dedicated community to hash over their response even if the OP has left the bulding, precisely because we should remain self-aware of how we conduct ourselves - it's part of how we want this forum to presnet itself and how we sish to be treated. 

For what it's worth, I read the Frankenstein thread and believe we acted well in huge measure. The responses to MM were with one exception (rescinded at that) fair and even attempted to be helpful, but for whatever reason - I won't castigate the guy or speculate in his absence - he took them as critical.


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## Facto2 (Nov 16, 2010)

Yes, but, we are all adults, so let’s just all keep it civil and see where it goes.


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## deadmanincfan (Mar 11, 2008)

PM for you, Sir John of Facto... :wave:


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## mcdougall (Oct 28, 2007)

Agreed John :thumbsup:
I've been very fortunate that I've never had a recast kit, I've only ever worked on Originals, and the cool thing is you get to meet the sculptors right here on the different forums we all (or some of us) frequent. Being able to ask questions first hand with the Artist behind the sculpt and the producers who see them through the casting procedure to me... is worth the money. (I dare say that I consider them my friends too) That's not to say that every kit I've bought cost me an arm and a leg, many have been in the $50.00 range. I've seen recast kits and frankly, when compared to the originals, there's a clear difference in quality, crispness and texture. So you really are saving nothing when you buy a recast, in my opinion.
Cheers guys:thumbsup:
Mcdee


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## Auroranut (Jan 12, 2008)

Well said Denis!:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Chris.


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## Scott J (Jun 21, 2000)

I'm having trouble deciding if I want to be an elitist, bigot, or cronie!! Can someone help?


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## Auroranut (Jan 12, 2008)

Spoil yourself Scott- be all 3!!

Chris.


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## Facto2 (Nov 16, 2010)

deadmanincfan said:


> Wolfie, Mike, John...I guess you'd better put me on the cronies list too...although I did like MM's painting...


In my best John McClane voice... "Welcome to the party, pal."


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## Facto2 (Nov 16, 2010)

deadmanincfan said:


> PM for you, Sir John of Facto... :wave:


 Received and replied to. Much appreciated, James.


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## Facto2 (Nov 16, 2010)

Scott J said:


> I'm having trouble deciding if I want to be an elitist, bigot, or cronie!! Can someone help?


 If you're a cronie, let me know, I found a cream that will clear that right up.  Geez, Scott, they let YOU on this board? What were they thinking?


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## IanWilkinson (Apr 23, 2010)

On the same subject as recasting, i had to recast parts on a monsters in motion kit!.. I posted images on here of what i did!.. The jars on the kit were solid resin and i cast them clear.. No body as far as i know complained?.. But no way would i entertain any one stealing peoples hard work to make a profit!


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## robiwon (Oct 20, 2006)

As long as kits are made, by a major company or a small one man outfit, there's going to be a time when somones work gets recast. It's part of the hobby, unfortunately. I don't agree with it, but it's going to happen. Nothing you can do about it. 

If someone recasts a currently available kit that's wrong. It takes sales away from the current producer. 

There have been numerous threads here about recasting parts, and doing small runs of OOP kits or parts over the years. It will never stop.

Kits from companies that have since long gone away are pretty much fair game, IMHO. There will always be people in the hobby that cant find an original kit, or don't want to pay inflated prices for an original. They will turn to a cheaper alternative. That also will never change.

The very reason this thread exists is that a thread that involved a recast kit went sour. Who is to blame or who said what is irrelevant at this point. People have strong opinions on the matter and those also will never change.

People who buy recasts of currently available kits will run the risk of being being called out and chastised. Garrage kit makers who make unlicensed kits of someone elses work will also be called out and chastised for it. Not by the model builders because we look the other way. We want those kits. No, they will be called out by the studios with a C&D. That too will never change.

When this thread gets locked or the interest dies off people will move on. MM may come back or he may not. If he does not, then that is a sad byproduct of what has happened here. It will happen again with another member here or on another forum. That too will never change.

The only way a kit will never run the risk of being recast is a kit that is never released. There have been many kit makers who have simply stopped selling kits. That trend to will continue.

And there will be other threads where people voice their opinions on the subject of recasting and stealing others work, whether it be from an individual, a major model company, or a movie studio. Tempers will flair.

That as well will never change................................................................

Now, I have to finish my morning coffee, smoke a ciggarette, and get to work on my Pegasus Mercury 9 if I am going to get it done for Wonderfest. Lots of wiring to do, soldering LEDs, scratchbuilding small bits and bobs.................that will never change either...........................................


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## Auroranut (Jan 12, 2008)

IanWilkinson said:


> On the same subject as recasting, i had to recast parts on a monsters in motion kit!.. I posted images on here of what i did!.. The jars on the kit were solid resin and i cast them clear.. No body as far as i know complained?.. But no way would i entertain any one stealing peoples hard work to make a profit!


There's no problem whatsoever with casting parts for your own projects Ian.
The problem with recasting comes from those parasites who, as you say, steal peoples hard work for their own profit.
I myself cast missing parts to rare Aurora kits for people on the forums. I NEVER charge any kind of fee- not even the postage and it can get quite expensive sometimes!! I do it for the love of the hobby and Aurora model kits. There's nothing worse than having a grail kit left unbuilt for the lack of a needed part. If I have the kit I'll cast the part providing the kit or any reissue isn't fairly easily found. I've often asked if this is regarded as stealing from Aurora, Monogram, or Revell but I've never been told it is. I've been asked in the past to cast up complete kits but I've always politely refused. That's something I couldn't bring myself to do.
I personally feel that the conversion kits for cars, aircraft, ships, etc. that use modified kit parts are OK too even if you sell them as it's mainly your work that goes in to them (usually extremely modified) and you're not ripping off the manufacturer in the process. You have to buy at least one kit to obtain the parts to modify, and whoever uses your detail parts has to buy a kit to fit them. There's also the fact that if your conversion, correction or detail parts were unavailable the producers of the kit might miss out on a sale to a customer who's only interested in the variant of subject that you've enabled them to model. That means you've helped the producer to sell more kits.
I hope that makes sense....:drunk:

Chris.


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## James Tiberius (Oct 23, 2007)

cronies was the most civil thing i could call you guys, don't be too proud.


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## Just Plain Al (Sep 7, 1999)

Come over to the Elitist side...we have cookies.


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## Tim Casey (Dec 4, 2004)

Too bad he didn't just say "It's a recast? What's a recast?" or "It's a recast? Damn! My bad." and move on. Instead, this guy started digging his hole deeper.

I'm a high school teacher. A reaction like his is what gets you sent to the principal's office instead of simply being told "Okay, let's sit down and get back to work."

So now he has a reputation as a jerk. He also has one messed-up looking Frankenstein recast (didn't want to say it at the time, but now, screw him).


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## kit-junkie (Apr 8, 2005)

Tim Casey said:


> So now he has a reputation as a jerk. He also has one messed-up looking Frankenstein recast (didn't want to say it at the time, but now, *screw him*).


that helps, SO much. :thumbsup:


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## robiwon (Oct 20, 2006)

Come over to the realistic side of life and learn to accept that there honest and dishonest people in the world. Life will be much easier. We have cookies too.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

James Tiberius said:


> I'd buy a recast if it was 1/3 the price off of ebay in a heartbeat, just like I am with R2. Which are re-casts of old AMT stuff. So even the big boys do it.


Um. _*WHAT!?*_ :freak:

R2 _pays _for the use of the AMT/Ertl _original molds_ and is _fully licensed_ to produce and sell Trek kits. It is in no conceivable way "recasting."


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

IanWilkinson said:


> On the same subject as recasting, i had to recast parts on a monsters in motion kit!.. I posted images on here of what i did!.. The jars on the kit were solid resin and i cast them clear.. No body as far as i know complained?.. But no way would i entertain any one stealing peoples hard work to make a profit!


As long as you made them for yourself and didn't sell them, you're only modifying your own kit to improve it for your own pleasure. That's not "recasting" in the way its being discussed here.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Ah! I found I have an Elfin figure kit, which I was told long ago was a recast company, and a crappy kit of Nausicaa which is so crappy it CAN'T be an original. That's two unknowing recasts out of a stockpile of ~1200 kits.

I shall build them forthwith.
Sometime.
Maybe later.


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## FLKitbuilder (Apr 10, 2011)

I just joined this forum but I've been a kitbuilder since 2000 and have won numerous awards at Wonderfest and Kitbuilders, including a bronze for Godzilla's Rampage in 2002, which was my first kit submitted for competition there, if anyone here remembers that particular diorama. I say that just to establish my pedigree, so to speak.
I read the original thread and I have to agree with the critics here, not about the OP's work which is outstanding, But it is very obvious that the kit is a recast, why do I know this? Because I have one..unbuilt, which I unknowingly bought way back when I started this hobby. And since I have been unable to acquire an original Horizon Frankie at a decent price, I've instead built the Geo version Son of Frankenstein. I also have the Son of F kit with Igor which is still unbuilt. I say this to point out that if you can't afford a Horizon, there are other alternatives. I'd rather not build it then to build a recast, but then that's my personal feelings and not important here. Not necessarily for moral reasons, since I personally feel that since Horizon, Screamin' and others are long gone, that recasts of those kits at this point are harmless, but the quality is just plain terrible. 
And there's just something about having an original. I have an original Billiken Creature from the Black Lagoon in my collection and may never build it, as well as many Horizon and Screamin' kits long out of production. 

That said, I'm not going to get into this controversy about recasting except to say that I have strong feelings about it also. The OP needs to understand that the figure kit building community is relatively small, and builders and creators often know each other quite well. So this recasting issue becomes personal. For example, I know George S. quite well from my many Wonderfest attendances. I remember when he told me he was getting out and I was really disappointed. I managed to get a bunch of Geo kits for practically nothing though. But when I see a Geo knock off, I get angry. I wasn't a builder when Horizon, Screamin', and BIlliken when down, but probably some of the posters here were, and to them, it's personal. However, if I ever saw anyone trying to recast one of Wayne the Dane's kits, I'd probably rip his head off. So, I guess you can stick ME in the elitism column also.

But, nobody, and I mean nobody attacked the OP in his original post, at least not until he started getting defensive and then attacked them for their "elitism." They merely pointed out that his kit MIGHT have been a recast and that they would have liked to have seen him do an original Horizon. Nobody called him a thief, ripoff artist or any of the other things he claimed to have been called. And frankly, to the OP I say without malice, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. Don't post your work for comment if you can't stand criticism, positive or otherwise. Artists of all kinds tend to be thin-skinned. We love praise and are devastated if we get criticism instead. It's a weakness of the species. But we need to listen patiently to what others have to say, even if it IS criticism. 
In this case, most of the comments were congratulatory, except that some pointed out the flaws of the kit itself, not the builder. But to my mind, the great majority of the comments were respectful and offered in a spirit of educating the OP about recasts, not castigating him for it. But his reactions were way over the top in my opinion. 
This isn't elitism, it's strictly people expressing strong feelings over an issue that has been wrought with strong feelings for many years.


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## mcdougall (Oct 28, 2007)

John P said:


> Um. _*WHAT!?*_ :freak:
> 
> R2 _pays _for the use of the AMT/Ertl _original molds_ and is _fully licensed_ to produce and sell Trek kits. It is in no conceivable way "recasting."


Right you are John...:thumbsup:
...Let's not confuse the issue of recasting... with re-issues and re-popping kits from original or newly modified molds....
Mcdee

(Welcome aboard FLKitbuilder)


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## ClubTepes (Jul 31, 2002)

Facto2 said:


> Okay, I’ll play. What exactly did I post that was offensive in the original thread? Specific quotes would be great.  Then I'll know how to respond.


Your initial post.
Its what started the whole demise of the thread.

The person was showing his work. Not asking if people could tell if it was a recast or not.

If you questioned my integrity of where I got something when I wasn't asking I'd be pretty P.O.'d and justifiably so.


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## wolfman66 (Feb 18, 2006)

ClubTepes said:


> Your initial post.
> Its what started the whole demise of the thread.
> 
> The person was showing his work. Not asking if people could tell if it was a recast or not.
> ...


Correction and one should read the thread over again.It was Not John Xofacto2 it was another member (Mcdougal)kindly asked MM if it was a Original or not and then Mrdean who post also way before John mentioned the head looked distorted which is common if its a recast which turned it was in fact it was a RECAST and be Thankful that there are members here and abroad that are willing to step up to the plate and point out hey thats a recast or not and saving a member from throwing his money out the window on a fake!


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## mcdougall (Oct 28, 2007)

wolfman66 said:


> Correction and one should read the thread over again.It was Not John Xofacto2 it was another member (Mcdougal)kindly asked MM if it was a Original or not and then Mrdean who post also way before John mentioned the head looked distorted which is common if its a recast which turned it was in fact it was a RECAST and be Thankful that there are members here and abroad that are willing to step up to the plate and point out hey thats a recast or not and saving a member from throwing his money out the window on a fake!


Yep ...Right you are Danny...
Here's the post that started it all...:
-------------------------------------------------------------------

"Creepy....I Love it :thumbsup:
Is it an Original Horizon kit?

Mcdee"
------------------------------------------------------------------
His painting skills are Great:thumbsup:
....just asked if was an original...that's all...
and my reasoning behind it is ...I'm now on the look out for this Horizon kit...
(An Original that is...)
Cheers
Denis


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## wolfman66 (Feb 18, 2006)

:jest:


mcdougall said:


> Yep ...Right you are Danny...
> Here's the post that started it all...:
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ...


Thanks Denis as was having a brain melt down here trying to copy and paste:freak: it


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## TAY666 (Jan 8, 2000)

dreamer 2.0 said:


> b) it's always gonna come up again as long as there's a BB and modelers, evident already as some have said they hadn't heard of recasting before (hell,_ I_ bought a recast before I knew what to watch out for - no aplogies, it's part of the learning process);


Yup.
Right there with ya.
I've got a couple of them in my stash too. One is even on my bench right now.
Got them long ago, before I knew what to look out for.
Thankfully I know what to watch for now, but even that is no guarantee that I won't get burned again. Just that the odds are better that I won't.


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## sauce (Dec 30, 2010)

I saw this thread popping up on the front page a lot so I had to drop in give it a read. WOW. I'm glad I'm here for the RC threads!


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## Buc (Jan 20, 1999)

Re: pg 1

Nice post, Mikey!!!

Bye, bye MM!

Buc


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## frankenstyrene (Oct 5, 2006)

Word of the day: _Perspective. _

Half of an Iowa town was ripped apart by a twister.

A certain group of people living in the Ivory Coast was recently burned alive by members of another group wanting to occupy and cleanse the same space.

Arkansas -- seat of the New Madrid fault -- has seen a slight uptick in seismic activity.

Country by country, the entire Middle East is starting to fall apart. Another global war will likely result, sooner or later, as the dominoes continue to fall.

An already inundated area of Japan was hit by a 2nd earthquake last week. Radioactivity still leaks unabated into the sea.

Upside: A two-year old boy wandered away from his home in 40 degree weather wearing nothing but diapers and could not be located by nightfall. Everyone feared the worst but the search had to be called off. The next morning he was found relatively safe, having been kept warm and alive by his loyal Labrador retriever, who'd wrapped himself around the boy all night.

_Perspective._ Just saying.

Now over to Jim with sports...


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

frankenstyrene said:


> _Perspective._ Just saying.
> 
> Now over to Jim with sports...


Life is to short to be concerned about this kind of drama.
Just saying....
-Jim


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## Ductapeforever (Mar 6, 2008)

WOW ! Not walking on this frozen pond. The ice is way too thin....just walk away.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Dang, this Elfin vinyl recast I have is really good quality!


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## plasticmouse (Nov 21, 2008)

John P said:


> Dang, this Elfin vinyl recast I have is really good quality!


The quality of Elfin is good. For the budget as MM says.


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## mcdougall (Oct 28, 2007)

Ductapeforever said:


> WOW ! Not walking on this frozen pond. The ice is way too thin....just walk away.











.....just saying...
Mcdee


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## Mark McGovern (Apr 25, 1999)

You can count me as an elitist as well. And yes, I have a recast of Billiken's Thing From Another World that I purchased before I knew what recasts are and have done to the hobby. Furthermore I was also of the "if-the-company-is-defunct-no-harm-done" school of thought - that is, until I learned on this forum that Billiken is alive and well in Japan. They're just not producing any more swell figure kits.

Beyond the recasting issue, I found Model Maker's reaction to what he considered negative input about his work pretty extreme. Anyone who posts photos of his or her work can't expect that all the responses they get will be positive. In the US, as of yet, free speech holds online and off; the poster should at least be aware of the possibility that there will be a wide variey of opinions concerning their work.

If MM's quitting the boards because he didn't like having it pointed out that he had a recast Horizon Frankenstein, one can only imagine how he'd have reacted if someone had panned his model. I didn't see that any of the respondents on his thread had violated the standard of civility that our moderators have tried to maintain. If MM is so very sensitive to criticism, real or perceived, then maybe he's doing the right thing by leaving these all-too-public forums.


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## scooke123 (Apr 11, 2008)

Well said Mark!!! I myself love having my work judged and welcome any suggestions as to how I could improve on it. Thats a great way to learn - you can try that different approach next time and it just may work for you. Its hard to understand why anyone would get upset if you put a model up for critique and can't handle both the good and bad. 
Only comment on recasts is that I guess i belong to the elitist group too. I have several friend who have sculpted various figures and I'd hate to see them ripped off because they definately neve got rich off their work.
Steve


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## Jimmy B (Apr 19, 2000)

falcondesigns said:


> "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone"


You sure that isn't "re-cast" the first stone?

Yuk, yuk, yuk...


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## Facto2 (Nov 16, 2010)

If anyone needs additional proof that Model Maker knew exactly what he was getting into check the old thread linked below. Plenty of people warned him about the quality of these recasts...

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=298199


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

People who live in stucco houses shouldn't throw quiche.
-- Sonny Crockett.


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## Auroranut (Jan 12, 2008)

Have you been sniffing your socks again John????:drunk:

Chris.


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## Facto2 (Nov 16, 2010)

Yeah, that one was way too esoteric for me. And usually I get jokes. It was supposed to be a joke, right?


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## BronzeGiant (Jun 8, 2007)

I'm probably going to get myself ostracized from this forum but I have to chime in my opinion of recasts. 

I have NO problem buying and building a recast of a kit that's 1) No longer in production by 2) a company that's no longer in business. 

I fail to see how buying a recast kit in, say, 2011 has any effect on a company that went out of business and stopped all production in, say, 1999. If I want to add a kit of a certain subject that's been out of production for over a decade then I should be able to if it's available from another source. Why should I be denied the pleasure of building such a kit simply because I got into the hobby too late.

No, I would not buy a recast of a kit that's still in production by a company that's still around. I do agree that's hurting that manufacturer's efforts, but one from a defunct manufacturer. No harm, No foul.

Steve Prange


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## machgo (Feb 10, 2010)

Well, I just read 11 pages of posts and my eyes are bleeding (my eyes don't handle LCD screens very well, probably why I need plus threes....)

Firstly, MM, if you are still reading these boards, I think your Frankenstein looks great. As many others have said, the colors and technique are excellent. The base is superb. Had I done the job, I would be proud to display it.

I didn't become aware of your work until after reading your "farewell" post. I looked hard at your pictures and, quite frankly, I don't see any misshapen head. It looks to me as if the head *appears* to be thinner, or caved in on Frankie's left side simply because the hair on that side is black and in shadow. Thusly, it blends in completely with the background, and gives the (mis)perception of being distorted. I mention that for what it's worth. Having said that, I have never seen the original Horizon piece so I am a poor judge in that particular regard.

There have been some very fine distinctions drawn here as to what is proper and improper. Having read all of the above posts, and MM's original kit submission, I wonder what, if any, differences in opinion there would be toward re-casts if the re-casts were identical or superior to the original. By all accounts, they are, at the very least, different. I realize that *that* is also a very fine distinction. 

Also, the general tenor of some posts seems to be that some behaviors are OK unless and until one gets caught. 

I think MM over-reacted, but his post did get thread-jacked after all.

Way back when I ignorantly purchased several Star Wars vinyl kits that ended up being poor re-casts. After the fact I realized exactly what I bought. They've been sitting in a box somewhere for years, untouched. I don't have a moral dilemma--I just don't know how to make anything decent out of the kits, they're so awful.

I also have several original Horizon kits, and an original vinyl Rancor (can't remember the manufacturer). The quality difference is night and day.

On a side note, the Horizon kits I have--all Mach 5s--have at least 2 and possibly three parts that are exact reproductions of IMAI Mach 5 kit parts. I'd be willing to bet that Horizon re-cast some of the other parts in their kit from existing automobile kit parts as well, although I have no proof of that. IMAI was still in existence at this time. I find this interesting in light of the current discussion. 

For the record, I have a number of re-cast resin kits in my possession. They are from Hong Kong. The quality is excellent. I know they are re-casts. I do not know what, if any, money was paid to the original creators, nor who the original creators are or were.

Lastly, to MM, I thought your exit speech was very well written. I appreciate good grammar and sentence structure. Good luck to you. :wave:


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## Jimmy B (Apr 19, 2000)

Wake me when the Ghost gets released


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## falcondesigns (Oct 30, 2002)

[/QUOTE]

On a side note, the Horizon kits I have--all Mach 5s--have at least 2 and possibly three parts that are exact reproductions of IMAI Mach 5 kit parts. I'd be willing to bet that Horizon re-cast some of the other parts in their kit from existing automobile kit parts as well, although I have no proof of that. IMAI was still in existence at this time. I find this interesting in light of the current discussion. 

[/QUOTE]


Not true,Horizon did not re cast any IMAI parts for it's Mach 5.I know,I worked there.


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## machgo (Feb 10, 2010)

I can provide photographic proof. A possibility I didn't mention earlier is tht IMAI lifted the parts from another company, possibly Fujisaki. The bottom line is, the Horizon kit contains parts with the exact same shapes that existed on other kits that preceeded Horizon's kit's creation date. I spoke with a Horizon representative regarding this years ago, although that was not the reason for my call.

Were you concerned with the creation of the Mach 5? Considering my love affair for the design, I sure would like to know more about your experience.


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## terryr (Feb 11, 2001)

Facto2 said:


> If anyone needs additional proof that Model Maker knew exactly what he was getting into check the old thread linked below. Plenty of people warned him about the quality of these recasts...
> 
> http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=298199


Ha!

Didn't read all this. It's too long. But I've got the gist of it and have read it all before.


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## wolfman66 (Feb 18, 2006)

machgo said:


> I looked hard at your pictures and, quite frankly, I don't see any misshapen head. It looks to me as if the head *appears* to be thinner, or caved in on Frankie's left side simply because the hair on that side is black and in shadow. Thusly, it blends in completely with the background, and gives the (mis)perception of being distorted. I mention that for what it's worth. Having said that, I have never seen the original Horizon piece so I am a poor judge in that particular regard.
> :


Here is the Original built and unbuilt.The recast is the one below that MM posted.See the big difference in the two kits?I do and so does alot of others on here.


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## mrmurph (Nov 21, 2007)

Great built-up, Dan. Do I detect a faint greenish tinge to the skin, or are my eyes. playing tricks? As always, your skin tones are impressive and - dare I say it - "dead on!"

As for the rest of this thread, I'm sorry feelings were hurt and statements misconstrued. I value the friendships I've made on the board and appreciate the constructive comments made about my (very few) built-up pics.


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## Facto2 (Nov 16, 2010)

Danny, I took the liberty of doing a side by side comparison of the two heads in Photoshop. Now someone tell me the one on the right looks as good as the one on the left. And tell me the head isn't warped or at the very least pinched. You do get what you pay for.










And by the way, Danny. If you did that builtup you did a fantastic job!!!


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## Auroranut (Jan 12, 2008)

The one on the right's definitely sucked in at the temples....

Chris.


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## James Tiberius (Oct 23, 2007)

MM I wish you well, and you are definately right about some of the people here.


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## machgo (Feb 10, 2010)

wolfman66 said:


> Here is the Original built and unbuilt.The recast is the one below that MM posted.See the big difference in the two kits?I do and so does alot of others on here.


I do see the differences. As far as the head is concerned, the original's head appears more uniform in width along its entire height, when viewed from the front. I can see that on the re-cast the area just above the brow ridge is more sunken, or the brow ridge is more pronounced, or both. 

The head as a whole appears V-shaped, and/or bulbous at the top, when compared to the original. Camera distortion may or may not be at play here. But for argument sake, I can accept that MMs photograph is accurate and there is no distortion due to camera or lens. The fact is MMs Frankenstein is different from the Horizon original. Not having knowingly seen, or at least closely scrutinized the original, I couldn't notice anything out of the ordinary. Neither have I seen a comparison of the two, side by side, so to speak. 

I'm sure many people here and elsewhere can spot the differences, and probably immediately so. Of course they have the benefit of having seen and scrutinized the original. That is something I haven't had the pleasure of doing, until now. Thanks!


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## wolfman66 (Feb 18, 2006)

machgo said:


> I do see the differences. As far as the head is concerned, the original's head appears more uniform in width along its entire height, when viewed from the front. I can see that on the re-cast the area just above the brow ridge is more sunken, or the brow ridge is more pronounced, or both.
> 
> The head as a whole appears V-shaped, and/or bulbous at the top, when compared to the original. Camera distortion may or may not be at play here. But for argument sake, I can accept that MMs photograph is accurate and there is no distortion due to camera or lens. The fact is MMs Frankenstein is different from the Horizon original. Not having knowingly seen, or at least closely scrutinized the original, I couldn't notice anything out of the ordinary. Neither have I seen a comparison of the two, side by side, so to speak.
> 
> I'm sure many people here and elsewhere can spot the differences, and probably immediately so. Of course they have the benefit of having seen and scrutinized the original. That is something I haven't had the pleasure of doing, until now. Thanks!


No problemo Amigo:dude:


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

Stuff like this is why I don't come here much, and stopped posting models here.


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## wolfman66 (Feb 18, 2006)

Facto2 said:


> Danny, I took the liberty of doing a side by side comparison of the two heads in Photoshop. Now someone tell me the one on the right looks as good as the one on the left. And tell me the head isn't warped or at the very least pinched. You do get what you pay for.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks John and yes thats my buildup(LOL).But as John pointed out here you can clearly see that the one on the right is a recast all the way and the head alone is a dead give away.


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## tr7nut (Apr 18, 1999)

*Forums: Toughen up.*

Unfortunately many who post on forums of any type will never get to meet each other face to face. Civility is lost sometimes when there is nothing but the printed word between us, not necessarily in the writing or interpretation...sometimes in between. If we were sitting around a table with each other most of these "heated debates" would be much kinder and gentler than they are here. Not much you can do but take everything that is written with a grain of salt, and understand that it may not be as harsh as you read in. Even if it is that harsh... who really cares? You don't know the person, they have no vested interest in you, your future, your family's future etc... You don't have to go, just need to toughen up the hide a bit and maybe lurk for a while. Lots of good people and good information on this board. It is one of the most genuine, AND genuinely helpful bunch you will find on the internet. THAT is why i have been coming here pretty much since the beginning and have never left. Best of luck!
Cliff Payne


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## robiwon (Oct 20, 2006)

tr7nut said:


> Unfortunately many who post on forums of any type will never get to meet each other face to face.


So true. So, anyone posting here going to Wonderfest next month? I'll be there. Would love to meet up with all of you. One thing I can say, modelers are a passionate bunch!


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## otto (Jan 1, 1970)

Auroranut said:


> Have you been sniffing your socks again John????:drunk:
> 
> Chris.


 Have you ever tried to clean quiche off of stucco? Its a pain! :tongue:


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## otto (Jan 1, 1970)

John P said:


> Dang, this Elfin vinyl recast I have is really good quality!


 Are you sure its an original recast? Could it be a recast of a recast?


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## Auroranut (Jan 12, 2008)

otto said:


> Have you ever tried to clean quiche off of stucco? Its a pain! :tongue:


I can imagine....

Chris.


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## g_xii (Mar 20, 2002)

Facto2 said:


> Danny, I took the liberty of doing a side by side comparison of the two heads in Photoshop. Now someone tell me the one on the right looks as good as the one on the left. And tell me the head isn't warped or at the very least pinched. You do get what you pay for.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You can't tell by these pictures -- different angles, and God knows what kind of lens or camera equipment he was using to take his photo. The shoulders look narrower as well, which leads me to suspect photography issues. However, I do see a tiny bit less detail in the recast. But, again, it could be the photo. The nose looks wider, the face looks thinner, and he may have just gotten too close with the camera.

There does appear to be a quality difference, though, and I never suspected that there would not be one -- I just don't consider this as "proof" in the meantime!

Me thinks some of you guys already have a noose around the guy's neck before all the evidence is in! 

--H


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## mcdougall (Oct 28, 2007)

To me it's clearly evident which is the Original and which is the recast...
and we've beaten this one pretty much to death :beatdeadhorse:...
We could debate this forever....or....
we can agree to disagree at this point and move on...
We probably all have kits to build....Hell, I know I'm backlogged...
With ORIGINALS...
Cheers everyone:wave:
Mcdee


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

g_xii said:


> You can't tell by these pictures
> Me thinks some of you guys already have a noose around the guy's neck before all the evidence is in!
> --H



-Jim


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## Auroranut (Jan 12, 2008)

Henry, it's painfully obvious by looking at those pics that they're different!! It almost looks like a different sculpt....
As far as us hanging the guy, he hung himself!
It was pointed out time and time again that it was a recast and he didn't give a damn. 
He knew about recasts at least as far back as August last year...

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=298199

Chris.


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## wolfman66 (Feb 18, 2006)

g_xii said:


> You can't tell by these pictures -- different angles, and God knows what kind of lens or camera equipment he was using to take his photo. The shoulders look narrower as well, which leads me to suspect photography issues. However, I do see a tiny bit less detail in the recast. But, again, it could be the photo. The nose looks wider, the face looks thinner, and he may have just gotten too close with the camera.
> 
> There does appear to be a quality difference, though, and I never suspected that there would not be one -- I just don't consider this as "proof" in the meantime!
> 
> ...


:freak:


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## Mitchellmania (Feb 14, 2002)

John P said:


> I'm gonna go see if I have any recasts in my stash.
> And build one.


 LOL! :thumbsup:
I don't own any models anymore- I just like to watch.


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## septimuspretori (Jan 26, 2011)

Jimmy B said:


> You sure that isn't "re-cast" the first stone?
> 
> Yuk, yuk, yuk...


Hahaha...I just peed meself.

Ben


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## Scott Hasty (Jul 10, 2003)

JC, Mary and Joseph I feel like I'm in junior high school again?


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## septimuspretori (Jan 26, 2011)

I started back into the model hobby in April of last year at the age of 46. I hadn't made a model since I was 12-13 years old. I started out with a Horizon Franky, Dracula, and Bride of Franky. As it turned out, the Franky and Dracula were recasts. I wondered why the bride was so much more expensive, but I just chalked it up to it being from a different seller and perhaps rarity. I didn't know what a recast was. I really didn't even realize there were model forums to learn from. I received all the models in the same week, although the bride was mailed from the U.S., the others from Thailand. As novice as I was, I noticed the difference in the thickness and opacity of the vinyl immediately. Shortly thereafter I joined some groups online and learned what I needed to know about recasts and so, didn't make the mistake again. That's not to say that I took the recasts I had completed and burned them with a welding torch. They are still on my shelf as a lesson learned. The Franky is deplorable..and my painting on it was terrible. The Dracula was just a little better, but I'm not crazy about it because even in the original casting the likeness is a bit generic...IMHO. Maybe not as bad as Horizon's Wolf Man, but still pretty bad. 
From there, I have only bought original kits. I have fallen in love with resin, which I hadn't worked with before until my Colin Clive model. I am paying 10 times more for kits than I was when I bought those two recasts. I have said all that to say this- I'm on a fixed income (disabled) and I actually quit smoking this year in January so that I could afford more kits. I had smoked 2 packs a day for 31 years. I can now afford approx. 1 really nice kit a month, which is faster than I work  so it works out. The excuse of buying recasts to save money just isn't going to fly with me...if I can afford them I figure anyone should be able to. 

Ben


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## kit-junkie (Apr 8, 2005)

septimuspretori said:


> the Franky and Dracula were recasts


We'll all forgive you for that. Being from Toledo, on the other hand...


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## septimuspretori (Jan 26, 2011)

kit-junkie said:


> We'll all forgive you for that. Being from Toledo, on the other hand...


Whoa....let's not get excited...I live in Toledo, but I'm not from Toledo...I grew up in a little Mayberry in Southern Indiana called Franklin. LOL

Ben


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## kit-junkie (Apr 8, 2005)

septimuspretori said:


> Whoa....let's not get excited...I live in Toledo, but I'm not from Toledo...I grew up in a little Mayberry in Southern Indiana called Franklin. LOL
> 
> Ben


That's even worse. You CHOSE to go there! 

I was born and raised in Toledo. Sad, but true. Moved to "The D" in '90.


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## MonsterModelMan (Dec 20, 2000)

WOW...what a long post but I guess I am in the pro original and not a recast supporter in the truest sense of the word...not the twisted meanings that so many try to come up with!

What I think would be constructive to this very very long post is to create a thread all about the differences between recasts and re-casters, re-issues or re-pops, and what the differences are and the good or bad it does to the hobby and why and make it a sticky at the top of the forum. 

As far as MM is concerned...I think you over-reacted to a group of modelers just trying to help point out something that obviously you knew about (from a previous thread) and chose to ignore and you took offense to them! They didn't hi-jack your thread...they were talking to you...that's it...nothing more.

I've been a member here for a very long time...if you are new to the hobby, you should at least listen to folks who are maybe enlighting you to an issue BEFORE you fall into it. Modelers helping modelers...hmmm what a concept!

And as others have said...it is an online forum where people say things and don't have the maturity to admit when they don't know something or can't appologize in public...best to close your browser and do something else instead of spitting at someone through your computer keyboard!

Once you see a recast in your hands...and compare it to an original...you will feel the same as many that the quality is really bad and you pretty much get what you pay for...a piece of junk!

MMM


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## harrier1961 (Jun 18, 2009)

kit-junkie said:


> That's even worse. You CHOSE to go there!
> 
> I was born and raised in Toledo. Sad, but true. Moved to "The D" in '90.


So, you were born in Toledo and MOVED to Detroit.
Yikes!!
lol
Andy
Born and bred Michigander


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## kit-junkie (Apr 8, 2005)

harrier1961 said:


> So, you were born in Toledo and MOVED to Detroit.


Yes (and ouch). I moved here, at a time when the area was thriving, to play music full time. I did so for about 6 years, then went into the auto industry (bad move, there).


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## Roy Kirchoff (Jan 1, 1970)

I just got caught up on this thread.  

I always get a real kick out of the farewell to modeling/modeling forum threads.  These rants make absolutly no sense to me. 
But I must say, that guys command of the written word is pretty impressive.

Too bad I missed all the fun!

~RK~


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

I'm leaving now, too.

Castle's coming on.

See y'all in the morning.


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## mcdougall (Oct 28, 2007)

I think I speak for everyone here when I say...
(sniff) Gonna miss ya John...(sniff)
Mcdee


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## wolfman66 (Feb 18, 2006)

MonsterModelMan said:


> WOW...what a long post but I guess I am in the pro original and not a recast supporter in the truest sense of the word...not the twisted meanings that so many try to come up with!
> 
> What I think would be constructive to this very very long post is to create a thread all about the differences between recasts and re-casters, re-issues or re-pops, and what the differences are and the good or bad it does to the hobby and why and make it a sticky at the top of the forum.
> 
> ...


Bob well spoken:thumbsup:


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## Scott J (Jun 21, 2000)

Mitchellmania said:


> LOL! :thumbsup:
> I don't own any models anymore- I just like to watch.


We've missed you Mitch :jest:


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

I'm back!


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

Thank you John for blessing us with your presence. 
-Jim


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## Auroranut (Jan 12, 2008)

Good morning John (it's nearly midnight here).
Did you miss us???
We missed you.....

Chris.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Aww! *blush*


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## Y3a (Jan 18, 2001)

Well............AMF!!! 



Can we close this thread now?


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## robiwon (Oct 20, 2006)

We can probably close this thread now since talk has now turned away from the subject and has now digressed into a "hello" thread.


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## kit-junkie (Apr 8, 2005)

this thread should have been closed, nine pages ago.


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## mcdougall (Oct 28, 2007)

....and....er....who'se forcing you to read?......Mcdee


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## kit-junkie (Apr 8, 2005)

mcdougall said:


> ....and....er....who'se forcing you to read?......Mcdee


Well, it's like passing a bad traffic accident. You just HAVE to look.


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## dreamer 2.0 (May 11, 2007)

"Hello"?
Hello!
Hello, hello.
I don' know why ya say goodbye, I say 'hello!'


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## Jimmy B (Apr 19, 2000)

kit-junkie said:


> Well, it's like passing a bad traffic accident. You just HAVE to look.


Or like acknowleging that canker sore inside your lip - you know that sucker hurts but you just have to lay your tongue on it....

Or seeing that carton of milk that's been in the fridge for 3 weeks.
You know its rank, but you just have to hold it up to your nose and smell...

Or when the fat old lady nextdoor neighbor wearing the too-short sundress bends over to weed her garden, you know you don't want to see but your eyes just......

Ah - you're right, just close the thread.


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## kit-junkie (Apr 8, 2005)

Jimmy B said:


> Or like acknowleging that canker sore inside your lip - you know that sucker hurts but you just have to lay your tongue on it....
> 
> Or seeing that carton of milk that's been in the fridge for 3 weeks.
> You know its rank, but you just have to hold it up to your nose and smell...
> ...


 lol! (I just had to look)


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## Facto2 (Nov 16, 2010)

Since it's turned into a Twitter thread they might as well lock it. Or, people could just stop posting and it will die it's natural death.


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

Maybe someone need to be







because of all of the







or at least be treated like a







.


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## GordonMitchell (Feb 12, 2009)

Just got to the last page and now your talking of closing the thread.I was just about to tell the story of what recasters in the UK or so called dealers in the UK did to help close my shop in 94.I wont mention names as some are still in business,I went to chiller at halloween in 92 made some friends and bought a pile of kits from Geo,Resin from the Grave,Dimensional Designs and a couple of kits from Kim Ito,a pile of mini monsters from Mad Lab etc,a couple of months later I am in London and I am offered recasts of Kim's Kato and Green Hornet not only recasts but at twice the price I had payed for an original from Kim,now at the time I was writing for a model mag also and I had a little column under another name lol:cant spell pseudonym) and I bring the problem to the fore....the mag has to pull my next column because over 80% of its advertisers have threatened to pull their business if my column continues so I have to stop my rant and continue only with my vinyl reviews of Screamin,Horizon and Geometric(all of which went on display in my shop at the time and they were eventually all sold and the money went to local charity's)I only have the pics left ,anyway I ordered a Dark Horse Predator from one of these so called dealers for a customer and the mess I got I imediately sent back,Brown box with a poorly photocopied picture on front and a pile of poorly cast pieces with more air bubbles than a leading bar of chocolate(Aero in the UK)and I'm still waiting for my refund so I know why folks get so heated,it didnt kill the hobby alone but it definately didnt help then and doesn't help now with the amount of mags and forums out there ignorance isn't an excuse

jees I only wanted to say can I be a crony?

all the best,Gordon M:thumbsup:

right you can close it now I said my bit:jest:


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## Zombie_61 (Apr 21, 2004)

^ Sorry, that photo just cracks me up.

At this point there's really no reason not to lock the thread. Drama Queen...er, I mean Model Maker hasn't posted since he started this thread, and it seems everyone's had their say on the matter (whatever the matter was at any given moment, that is).


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## jbond (Aug 29, 2002)

I do give Model Maker credit for not posting since the beginning of the thread.


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## USS Atlantis (Feb 23, 2008)

Mr, Bond - if you check his profile, he hasn't done ANYTHING on the boards since he made that post


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Hello, I must be goinnngg.


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## FalcignoArt.com (Dec 5, 2010)

Well, I've read all this stuff and I know some emotions got heated. BUT, I don't think that's a bad thing.

I thought a lot about how upsetting it is that anytime anyone tries to simply inform modelers (many of who are openly interested newbies who want to know what the deal is with recasts) about the various downsides of recasting, a slew of people jump in to muddy the waters with every possible smokescreen tactic at their disposal in an effort to veer the topic away from the basic facts.

First & foremost: I absolutely adore the world of Garage Kits. This includes the sculptors, producers, and MODELERS who share my dedication to creating & building the best quality product we can offer/build.

To answer the whole "unlicensed" debate, all I'll state is the truth:

Many Garage Kit producers HAVE made every possible attempt at licensing kits. From bigger boys like Geo, Screamin, and Horizon down to tiny companies like Action kits International, Janus, and Ray Santoleri.

The main reasons most do not seek licenses is because:
A: When GK companies DID get them, they still were not considered big enough players by the license holders to warrant being taken seriously. In other words, when RECASTERS started bootlegging Geo & other GK companies, no matter how much those companies begged and pleaded for the studios to enforce the license...the studios did NOTING to protect their clients. Instead, recasters had a field day and blew out thousands of poorly produced garbage for much less cost to produce than the original GK companies had spent. That's the TRUTH with no room to debate.

B: Garage Kits have always been a small run, fan produced hobby. Before Mcfarlane toys jumped on the band wagon (though in a mass produced manner), the only way ANY horror fan could own an 18" Leatherface figure was to buy it from Screamin'. Once the toy companies started putting out more obscure characters, the Gk hobby took a hit due to the mainstreaming of the subjects.

However, even in 2011, I can guarantee that the only way a horror fan can own a statue of Peter Lorre as Dr. Gogol from the classic flick Mad Love is if they buy one from me. I spent a lot of time designing and sculpting that piece as a tribute kit because I love the film and wanted one for my own shelf. To date, less than 12 of that bust has sold. MGM owns the rights to the film and when I contacted them to see if they were interested in possibly releasing a series of busts based on some of their old film catalog THEY DIDN'T EVEN RESPOND to my email. Even still, I'm thrilled I sculpted the piece and the small amount of sales I did make have at least paid for the silicone used to mold it. The best part for me though is that 11 other Mad Love fans have the tribute bust they always wanted.

The above paragraph details the situation of 90% of my fellow GK producers and sculptors.

So, if any of you think that someone buying a copy of my Mad Love bust, pouring a mold off it, and selling s*itty quality copies for $10 is the SAME THING as me spending hours on end crafting and releasing an unlicensed tribute bust...well...I honestly believe you are certifiably crazy.

If every Garage Kit company ONLY released kits they were able to obtain licenses for there simply WOULD NOT be a Garage Kit hobby. Is that so hard to understand?

As for this whole Franky recast situation & this thread itself, I wouldn't call it a "car accident you need to look at" as much as an embarrassment.

If you want an analogy, I look at this whole situation as a pot luck dinner party gone horribly wrong. Allow me to explain:

"A bunch of us are hanging out at a party at Model Makers house where everyone was supposed to bring some food. Model Maker offers up a big pepperoni pizza. Everyone is eating various food and having fun. Model Maker asks how we all like his pizza. A bunch of party goers say "it's great". 
A couple other party goers say it's also quite tasty but ask him were he got it. For some reason Model Maker avoids the question. One of the party goers asks if the pizza is from Domino's because it looks and tastes a lot like Domino's. Model Maker says no it isn't, it just LOOKS and TASTES like Domino's. OK...no big deal. But, a little later on, one of the guests notices a Domino's pizza box in the trash. Strange...the box says it contained a large pepperoni pizza. So, like any normal person, one of the guests mentions this to Model Maker. He gets snippy with the guest and states they should shut up and eat the damn pizza. Another guest notices a date on the box showing it was ordered earlier this evening. By now, all the guests at the party know Model maker didn't make the pizza or order it from any restaurant other than Dominos because it's plain as day. They talk amongst themselves trying to figure out why he didn't just say "Yes, it's from Domino's". They were confused because this was a grown adult making up stories.

One of the guests couldn't believe the oddness of the situation, so he stated to Model Maker, "This isn't the greatest quality pizza ever, but you were nice for offering it up to us at your party. You did a great job planning this, but why not just say it was from Domino's?"

Model Maker screamed he had a coupon and got it cheaply, then flipped out, and says that we are all idiots for noticing his pizza was from Domino's, that we are attacking him with bigotry & vitriol and that we should all leave immediately. 

Also, he's never going to talk to any of us again."

Now, I realize it's not the exact same situation (mainly because Dominos' pizza may suck, but they DO make it themselves... unlike recasters.) but really...it's pretty damn close to what happened.

Please remember that no one attacked him personally in anyway, we all complimented his work though you wouldn't think that if you only read the first post he made in this thread.

-Mike


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## Buc (Jan 20, 1999)

Mike... step away from the keyboard!!


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## Facto2 (Nov 16, 2010)

Well said Mike. And Buc, at least Mike's post was on topic unlike the twitter nonsense that's been posted.


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

Well on the internet people never really go away anyway (even if you want them to). They lurk around or come back with a new name. If someone really wanted to leave they wouldn't make a big production out of it. They would just leave.


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## Jimmy B (Apr 19, 2000)

Facto2 said:


> Well said Mike. And Buc, at least Mike's post was on topic unlike the twitter nonsense that's been posted.


Nonsense??! There's no nonsense here.....only serious business!
:roll::tongue::jest::tongue::roll: :roll::wave::roll: 

If anyone refers to my posts as nonsense, I'll leave.....For Good!!


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## dreamer 2.0 (May 11, 2007)

Facto2 said:


> Well said Mike. And Buc, at least Mike's post was on topic unlike the twitter nonsense that's been posted.


'Cuz we should never deal with things like this with a sense of humor. 

I'm afraid that's how we've always done things here. Some of the most entertaining threads these fora have ever seen started as arguments and turned into comedy routines.


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## FalcignoArt.com (Dec 5, 2010)

My Pizza story was an attempt to place the whole situation in a "real world" scenario outside of Garage Kits but with a lighter topic. Historically, humor has always been a very valid and strong way to get a real point across. Daily Show anyone?

I'm not against humor, as a matter of fact, I find the majority of my life to be ridiculous.


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## Facto2 (Nov 16, 2010)

dreamer 2.0 said:


> 'Cuz we should never deal with things like this with a sense of humor. I'm afraid that's how we've always done things here. Some of the most entertaining threads these fora have ever seen started as arguments and turned into comedy routines.


Hey, I’m all for humor... you know... when it’s actually funny. :wave:


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## rkoenn (Dec 18, 2007)

Jimmy B said:


> Nonsense??! There's no nonsense here.....only serious business!
> :roll::tongue::jest::tongue::roll: :roll::wave::roll:
> 
> If anyone refers to my posts as nonsense, I'll leave.....For Good!!


If you do leave we expect at least a 3000 word explanation written in good grammar and listing all your reasons for why you found us so obnoxious to be around! LOL

I just had to chime in after wasting a half hour or more reading through this thread. Hopefully my humor will add some levity to the general discussion.

Bob K.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Ask Capt Cardboard about licensing. IIRC, Scot did his best to get licensing for his 2001 models, but the studio told him it would cost them more in lawyers and paperwork than they'd ever make from sales.


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## GunTruck (Feb 27, 2004)

I just wanted to add that I think MM wanting to leave the Forum over this is a waste, and don't know how it blew up so fast.

I've been visiting HT for awhile because I like the "environment" and find some of the passionate discussions here both interesting and illuminating.

I've _never_ built a figure before. Until now, I had no idea of the passion behind sentiments surrounding recasting - and I learned a lot reading through the thread and seriously absorbing what's been written.

I know, not jovial or funny, but I appreciate all the food for thought.


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

Typical, this thread gets more post than most model threads. This is so wrong.


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## frankenstyrene (Oct 5, 2006)

There was pizza?


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## Auroranut (Jan 12, 2008)

Yup.... and strippers....

Chris.


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

were the strippers real or recasts?


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## Facto2 (Nov 16, 2010)

Let's just say there was a lot of silicone involved...


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## Auroranut (Jan 12, 2008)

Chris.


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## frankenstyrene (Oct 5, 2006)

Auroranut said:


> Yup.... and strippers....
> 
> Chris.


Dang it! I miss all the fun. Was it Purple Power or Pine-Sol?


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## USS Atlantis (Feb 23, 2008)

Considering the current crowd, I'd go for the "Easy-Off"


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## kit-junkie (Apr 8, 2005)

Nah! If they're too easy it's no fun.


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## MadCap Romanian (Oct 29, 2005)

WTF? 11 pages of posts on this whiney little thread? Why can't any of my posts ever advance beyond 5 comments? 

Maybe I should leave.


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## kit-junkie (Apr 8, 2005)

MadCap Romanian said:


> WTF? 11 pages of posts on this whiney little thread? Why can't any of my posts ever advance beyond 5 comments?
> 
> Maybe I should leave.


 :drunk: really? :freak:


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## Chinxy (May 23, 2003)

rkoenn said:


> If you do leave we expect at least a 3000 word explanation written in good grammar and listing all your reasons for why you found us so obnoxious to be around! LOL
> 
> I just had to chime in after wasting a half hour or more reading through this thread. Hopefully my humor will add some levity to the general discussion.
> 
> Bob K.


My wife and daughter tell me every day!


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## MadCap Romanian (Oct 29, 2005)

@ Kit Junkie - no...not really.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

MadCap Romanian said:


> WTF? 11 pages of posts on this whiney little thread? Why can't any of my posts ever advance beyond 5 comments?
> 
> Maybe I should leave.


If you do, don't forget to leave a huge, rambling post about it!


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## hankster (Jan 1, 1998)

Time to put this one to sleep.


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