# Do we need a new SLOWER Motor Class?



## John Foister (Nov 3, 2002)

*I think so.*


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## Ralf (Oct 19, 2001)

I am trying to get back in the goroove, was just in it for a few minutes it seems. Anyway, want to run brushless, keep it simple, work on chassis and driving, mostly the later. 13.5 is a bit fast to get started back in for me and a little too fast for the average newb, so YES a slower class IS needed. Let us slower guys stay out of your heats and mains until we improve a bit. IMO


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## JSJ Racing (May 18, 2004)

*I think so too*

Yes, I think we need a new slower "brushless" motor class.

First of all we race on a concrete oval track. We run 13.5, 4300, and two breakout classes. Our breakout pan car class is 6.0 seconds. Our 13.5 class is running at an average of 4.5 second laps. Since 6.0 is our "beginner" class it is a huge set up to 13.5. I think that we need a brushless motor that would run around 5.0 second laps.

We have a few racers who are going to get the new 17.5 motor, that Novak is releasing in limited numbers, and see what lap times this motor will turn. I am hoping this motor will be what we are looking for to bridge the gap from 6.0 to 13.5. Because some of our breakout guys are wanting to run with out a breakout.

Scott Johnson


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## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

Scott,

Make sure you guys get together and do a club bulk purchase on the 17.5's on SHOPATRON and save the extra $5.00 per motor...(Order 4 at a time)


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## John Foister (Nov 3, 2002)

To be sure everyone understands, I am talking alot slower. Let us look at a particular track (oval) where:

Mod lap times are 3 sec
4300 is 3.3
19 turn is 3.4
13.5 is 3.6
stock brushed 3.7 or 8
I am talking about 4 to 4.5 sec laps for this new motor class.

Onroad track
where lap times are aroud 10 seconds
Lets go to 15 seconds with a slower motor.

I am proposing alot slower. Slow enough where if a spectator comes up to you in practice you are not afraid to say *Here take a few laps.*

Are there enough current racers willing to drop back and go that slow? Alot more than most are willing to take a serious look at. Lets make another attempt at putting the fun back in rc cars for the causal rc enthusiest without taking anything away from the die hard gotta go fast guys(which I am also in that group but not exclusively).

This is so simple and easy to do we must give it a try. I am calling a motor winder tomorrow to get some motors wound to start my testing in Cincy. I think I might actually be able to drive road course and have fun at 15 second laps.


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## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

Here's an example of the one and only 17.5 test I've done so far with 4 cell against some of our sportsman stock guys.

TQ ran a 62 lapper in the previous run to mine.

I only ran the 17.5 car ONE heat w/ NO practice. The result was a 61/5:05

TQ driver lap times were 4.7's up front, settling into 4.5's and 4.6's once the car settled down...then tapering off to 4.8's 4.9's at the end.

My run with a 'recharged' battery that had just come off the track running a 10.5 heat ran 4.7's up front but fell early to 4.8's & 4.9's and appeared to dump the last 15 seconds. (I didn't get a full charge in the pack - but didn't figure I'd have an issue with it)

I was scheduled to also run the MAIN at this event - but the director ran the "A's" before the "B's" and I didn't catch that on the schedule and had the 10.5 back in the car for the "B" main...when the STOCK "A" lined up...and I didn't have time to swap it back w/o holding up the program.

In comparison - the EXPERT 10.5/4 cell guys were running laps in the 3.9's - 4.0 range, so Stock was about .75 seconds a lap slower. (10.5 is about 15 laps quicker than STOCK in 5 minutes)


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## John Foister (Nov 3, 2002)

I am looking forward to testing and hearing others results after running the 17.5 to see where it stacks up against brushed stock. This may be more of a true replacement for brushed stock in 4 cell and 6 cell road course. I am going to get a couple 17.5's also. I want some of our Cincy road course guys to test it. Lets give it some time so we have accurate data to move forward with. I want to thank Novak for listening and doing what they can to fill the need we have. Hopefully it will pay off for them in the long run.


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## shouw dungpow (Jun 23, 2007)

I dont think so . Another split in the same car type means to few racers in every class . In toyko when sedan went 5 cells to slow us down we added a lower turn mod class for us to not go faster just stay the same speed . But others that didnt switch to that motor caused class split so we went from 40+ racers in one class to 18 in some 20 in the other and some people just quit running . Divison of classes due to motors or battery is bad . It should be dermind by chassis and intry level 3 months to 2 years in sport or expert 2 years until senior age .Then go run snack bar LOL . Pan car race no diffrent I think . Good day .


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## DJ1978 (Sep 26, 2001)

John,
Why do you ask? 
Are you asking because you have a lot of Novice racers or are one yourself?
Are you having trouble controlling you car? 
You can gear a car to go slower. Run a spec motor to slow the cars down like a closed endbell Tamiya 540 motor. OR Tamiya closed endbell 540 sport motor.
Traxxas now sells a ESC with a 50% throttle setting. 
There are many ways to slow a car down. Some use a foam rubber block taped to the handle of the Radio to keep a vehicle slow for a child or new racer so they can't pull the trigger all the way.
Many ways to keep the speeds down.
Are you a NASCAR official??? LOL!! Just kidding!!


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## IndyRC_Racer (Oct 11, 2004)

DJ1978 said:


> John,
> Why do you ask?
> Are you asking because you have a lot of Novice racers or are one yourself?
> Are you having trouble controlling you car?


 - LOL!!! If Foister is a novice who is having trouble controlling his car, I hate to see how much faster he does go on the Indy Velodrome after he figures it out. (For the record John Foister is a very talented drive who is the man behind BSR tires)

Running a mod motor on a wide open parking lot touring car track is fun. Running the same motor indoors on a tight track is painful unless you are an expert driver.

We don't need 20 different types of motors, but a lot of racers could truly benefit from slower motors. I think it is easier to gear to the power of any motor than to ask a racer to throttle back/adjust the speed controller/run a smaller gear. Anyone who has raced in the TCS (Tamiya Championship Series) races can see that good racing doesn't require fast motors or $1000 cars. Just ask anyone who has raced a Mini Cooper at a TCS race if they had fun.

I don't know if going slower would attract more racers, but it might help racers on a budget break less parts. It would be less intimidating to novice racers as well.


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## BullFrog (Sep 24, 2002)

Well I can tell you the 13.5 in road course is equal. I've been running them against Brushed motors for a year. Now one class(masters) is 99% all brushless. Several of our masters ran with the normal brushed motors and made the A main main before.You can compair the lap times as the are all posted on the website.We're sticking with the 13.5 in stock brushless and next year it in the stock class it will be either motor in stock TC.I can't say anything about oval as I do not race in that class. The website(Florida series) is www.fseara.org you can see all the posted lap times.
I can say that the motor is better because it does not drop off at the end and is smoother in the corners.All of us using the motor- is now driving ablitiy.Gearing depends on the rotor used.


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## BullFrog (Sep 24, 2002)

I tested a 14.5 last year with a bonded rotor and was asked to get out of the way.Gave it to another A main driver and he wouldn't race it after his qualifier- to slow.A 17.5 should really be even slower.


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## brian0525 (Jan 17, 2005)

BullFrog said:


> Well I can tell you the 13.5 in road course is equal. I've been running them against Brushed motors for a year. Now one class(masters) is 99% all brushless. Several of our masters ran with the normal brushed motors and made the A main main before.You can compair the lap times as the are all posted on the website.We're sticking with the 13.5 in stock brushless and next year it in the stock class it will be either motor in stock TC.I can't say anything about oval as I do not race in that class. The website(Florida series) is www.fseara.org you can see all the posted lap times.
> I can say that the motor is better because it does not drop off at the end and is smoother in the corners.All of us using the motor- is now driving ablitiy.Gearing depends on the rotor used.


Is there anyone that runs oval and onroad sedans that can tell me why I keep seeing people say 13.5 and stock are equal in roadcoarse but not oval.

I only race oval and 13.5 is way faster than stock. Is 13.5 not any faster on the roadcoarse cause no one has geared it up where it needs to be or because there is so much more driver error that the differance is lost.

It would seem to me faster motor on the oval would be faster on the road coarse! Atleast when your talking about slower motors like these.


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## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

> Is 13.5 not any faster on the roadcoarse cause no one has geared it up where it needs to be or because there is so much more driver error that the differance is lost.


Brian,

Part of this may be in part due to OVAL running 4 cell vs Touring running 6, added to the driver error. Rarely, unless it's one of those big races (ie: SNOWBIRDS, REEDY, IIC) type of events when you read lap time results are TOURING guys running .01+/- each lap, like so many OVAL guys can do OVER and OVER and OVER.

Road course laps in general, especially at CLUB racing look more like

16.9
16.2
15.8
17.1
17.8
15.9
16.2
17.0

and so on, and if you were to look at the FASTEST lap times, vs. the AVERAGE laps times there is a huge difference. 

I do believe if you took the top 50 ONROAD racers (rubber tire, stock sedan) and put 25 in a 13.5 class and 25 in a STOCK Brushed motor class you would see a 1 - 1 1/2 lap difference.

(Some would say - ONLY ONE LAP is no big difference) but if a roadcourse track is a 17.5 second track layout - than a FULL lap would then be 17.5 seconds slower in the overall run, which I think would be about like a 6% difference.

Where on an OVAL track (especially CARPET) 17.5 seconds could be equal to 5 laps, or so.


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## Craig (Jan 1, 1970)

We tried to go slower with the SPEC motor and battery combo. Did quite well with it for years. But nothing stays the same. Racers get smarter and figure how to circumvent the limitations on anything youplace in front of them. Before long a SPEC motor couldbe made almost as fast as a Stock motor. So over the years the desire to slow things down to a drivable speed has all but vanished. 6-cell to 4-cell, Stock to Spec were supposed to accomplish this, but that has now become just another chapter in the RC history books.

The good old silver can Mabuchi 540 was always a cheap and simple solution. But it's hard to make the changes to racing palletable to racers. No one wants to go slow or be called a "novice". 

Race what's available and learn. RC Racing like every other form of motorsports is not for those who are timid of heart, impatient or lean of pocketbook.


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## gezer2u (Sep 25, 2001)

The difference in speed between Oval and Sedans is that the drive train has more moving parts and the huge weight difference.


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## gezer2u (Sep 25, 2001)

The difference in speed between Oval and Sedans is that the drive train has more moving parts and the huge weight difference in the sedan.


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## John Foister (Nov 3, 2002)

I got the 35 turn brushed arms ordered today. Should have them in a couple weeks. I think they will go over really well at our cincy road course track. Especially in 12th scale. I will be testing them all summer in all forms of on-road and oval. Got to get the 17.5's order tomorrow tho. This motor will not appeal to most experienced racers and should not. Not its intended purpose. But if we can slow done a small group of rc enthusiest we will have better place for the first timer to get his feet wet and get an appetite for some real speed.


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## katf1sh (Jan 17, 2002)

this sounds good!


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## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

> This motor will not appeal to most experienced racers and should not. Not its intended purpose. But if we can slow done a small group of rc enthusiest we will have better place for the first timer to get his feet wet and get an appetite for some real speed.


JOHN - hand a 17.5 to one of the experienced guys running 10.5/4300 motors....and hand him your LIPO for the day - and see how he LIKES YOU then~


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## FishRC (Sep 28, 2001)

Hard part is not splitting up your races into small classes that only last a little while because they are not something that a visitor or new driver can walk in and have those requirements with them. If they walk in and find out there setup is ROAR rules based and the track only runs classes that a car set up for ROAR classes can't meet, they won't stay. Also if that class of ROAR legal cars only is a small group, again you’re going to have long term trouble. Not all tracks have that issue but most do. Drivers want to go fast, as fast as possible, so slowing them down, just drives them to other classes. Around here the guys that want to go fast or have big time power are all into 1/8th gas. Look in the mags at what the current hot/fast growing class, its 1/8th gas. In the last few years its been sedan, truggies, and MT that were the hot thing. Each new class pulled in new drivers, but also pulled current drivers from other classes.

Would a new class help, maybe, but it might just make other classes that much smaller in the long run and in total, not really bring in new drivers.


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## John Foister (Nov 3, 2002)

FishRC said:


> Each new class pulled in new drivers, but also pulled current drivers from other classes.
> 
> Bringing in new people is what my goal is. We are always going to be loosing some for one reason or another, that is why it is so important to have a place to bring in new ones.


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## brian0525 (Jan 17, 2005)

How did we get from electric to nitro???


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## BullFrog (Sep 24, 2002)

Just take the current motor (13.5) and have a specific gear ratio which will slow the cars down. When they can handle that they could move up by just switching gears.No cost to the racers except two gears- it's cheaper than a motor.


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## davepull (Aug 6, 2002)

bill what about roll out? All I have to do is put on a bigger tire to go faster.


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## kevinm (Jan 16, 2002)

We used to have a fixed gear ratio rule in Legends class. It worked OK until the new track was larger. Then the guy with the newest (i.e. largest) rear tires won. And does anyone REALLY want to tech rollout?

We don't need more classes. I think the best answer is to make stock class slower by re-defining what a stock motor is (maybe 36 turn?), NOT by reducing the number of cells. All of the chargers, ESCs, radios, etc. are really designed for 6-cell voltage. And all of the Lithium based battery chemistries (except for A123's special ones) are 3.7 volts per cell, so you can't make 4.8V or 6V with them. Give the motor factory 30 minutes to load a new spool of wire in the machine and change a program variable, and they can produce whatever wind you want.

If stock class is slower, maybe then the experienced drivers will ALL finally move up to 19-turn/10.5 brushless class, which seems to be the right speed for good drivers.

As for modified, you'll have to get all the Nitro racers to agree to slow down and then pry the 2-cell LiPo from from my cold, dead fingers before I accept slowing this class down. :tongue: Race cars in the highest class are SUPPOSED to be fast and hard to drive. We're not worried about the safety of spectators or drivers here.


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## shouw dungpow (Jun 23, 2007)

I still dont like the idea of going slow . But if your going to do it go to 3cells at your track and run for 3 minutes . This will give enough time for the new racers to learn or people who dont want to wear out stuff or to run . I think racing is just that go as fast as you can and dont crash if you do rebuild it and do it again and dont crash . If you keep crashing go run snackbar .LOL


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## forgothowtowin (Aug 2, 2006)

3 cell racing work good for any class it slow and fun just like it should be


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## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

...I forget this thread is in the GENERAL R/C section and NOT the OVAL section so we are getting a lot of viewers we don't normally have in this discussion...

As far as all the different structures, it's one of my hopes to be able to tie different "SETUPS" or "GROUPS" of technology together, and with them all grouped together in a class or classes that run really close on speed....then the drivers/racers would be introduced to some things he/she may not otherwise be able to become familiar with. (ie: BRUSHED/NIMH vs. BL/NIMH vs. BL or BRUSHED w/ LIPO) with a little time and research and proper testing the right combinations could be put together...and it maybe needed to have a slightly different rule structure (ie: MORE weight, or something) to help equal the playing field. (AS I've said on this subject in other places..this would be aimed more toward CLUB type racing - NOT MAJOR EVENT type racing) 

SLOW classes are NOT for everybody - but they are NOT just for novices either...I know a LOT of old timers who have been racing since before dirt was dirty - that enjoy a good race - but don't have the "SPEED" thrill so much anymore...they just want to be competitive at a speed level they can handle.

(AS FOR Fixed Gear, Rollout, BreakOut, Maubuchi Motors, and just about all the others...some have worked GREAT, some have failed misrably...but in the long run they have all been figured out and guys who worked REALLY HARD found advantages...THAT WILL NEVER CHANGE - THIS IS RACING)


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## John Foister (Nov 3, 2002)

shouw dungpow said:


> I still dont like the idea of going slow . But if your going to do it go to 3cells at your track and run for 3 minutes . This will give enough time for the new racers to learn or people who dont want to wear out stuff or to run . I think racing is just that go as fast as you can and dont crash if you do rebuild it and do it again and dont crash . If you keep crashing go run snackbar .LOL[/QU
> 
> I am real curious if you would let us know where and what you race. I know most of the modified racers around and sounds like you are definately a modified racer since (I think racing is just that go as fast as you can). If you do not race modified, Why don't you?
> 
> This new *slow motor* class is for those that want to go slow *and *so that there is a class that a person that has never seen an rc car can get started and have fun. Then after that person get thier feet wet they can move up to the faster motor classes with the same car.


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## DJ1978 (Sep 26, 2001)

John Foister said:


> Bringing in new people is what my goal is. We are always going to be loosing some for one reason or another, that is why it is so important to have a place to bring in new ones.


The place I have for new ones is an open Novice class. Run what you brung. We recommend a stock motor in their cars or the motor that comes with the kit. 
My track is an Indoor Dirt Electric Off Road. In Novice there are every type of vehicle you can imagine except mini's. I have consistently averaged 25 to 30 novices for over 5 years by NOT putting any restrictions on them. The only restriction on the Novice class is that if you win the Novice A Main 3 times. You have to move up into your apppriate class. 
We also monitor the novice class to make recommendations at to set up and performance of their vehicles and help them out in any way we can. 
It has worked. We average over 200 entries a race all winter long at Washtenaw RC Racway in Ann Arbor, MI and it continues to grow. 

There is a difference between a spec class and requiring slower equipment for new racers. Many experienced racers may choose a spec class because they like the level playing field and the need for quality set up and consistent driving to be sucessful. But for a new racer, they will have the same problems they have with any other vehicle and set up. 
The way I feel to attract new racers is to give them track time. What are you going to tell a new racer who shows up with the new Traxxas brushless set up that Traxxas claims can go 70 MPH, and that racer has invested in the set up that Traxxas recommends? Sorry you can't race here. 
That is why we run the Novce class that is open to all vehicles. After you let them on the track, They see that insane MOD motor the hobby shop sold them is not practicle, they usually want to invest in somthing more to their skill level. But to FORCE a new racer to spend additional money just to race pushes them away from the track.
You make recommendations to new ones who want to race that have not purchased a set up yet. And you mentor those who have already purchased equipment and may be in over their heads.


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## DJ1978 (Sep 26, 2001)

kevinm said:


> We used to have a fixed gear ratio rule in Legends class.
> 
> We don't need more classes.
> 
> ...


I RARELY ever saw any novices running in the legends class when it was big here.
I agree with the MOD class. It is an OPEN class at my track. ANY MOTOR, ANY BATTERY, AND I design the track so that areas of the track near spectators is the slower area of the track.


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## JH Racing (Apr 22, 2005)

My take on mod is any motor with a battery cap.


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## shouw dungpow (Jun 23, 2007)

John Foister said:


> shouw dungpow said:
> 
> 
> > I still dont like the idea of going slow . But if your going to do it go to 3cells at your track and run for 3 minutes . This will give enough time for the new racers to learn or people who dont want to wear out stuff or to run . I think racing is just that go as fast as you can and dont crash if you do rebuild it and do it again and dont crash . If you keep crashing go run snackbar .LOL[/QU
> ...


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## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

shouw,

There is a VELODROME in Japan where they run oval - 

I have a friend who I use to race with who lives in Tokyo - he'd ride the train and walk a total of over an hour to the Yakota Air Base some years ago - to have them only have mains for the TOP 10 qualifiers - EVERYONE ELSE was finished after qualifying...


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