# Pan Am Space Clipper Orion Scratch-build



## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

Hey there. 
This is my first post here. Great site. Waaayyy too much information here. I really should be spending more time building models, not ogling other people's models.

I have been researching the Orion Space Clipper for a few months now, and was lucky enough to find a few really great and rare images. I even contacted Martin Bower about his model, and though he didn't really give me any details, he did encourage my own investigation into this ship's design. I have also read the Bizony book on 2001, and using that drawing as a starting point, I have come up with what I hope is a reasonably good representation of the Kubrick ship.

I have attached a few images of my work so far. 
The model started life as a piece of plexiglass, cut into a side profile, and 18 contours, for the main fuselage. 

The contours were filled with styrofoam, then filled with body filler, and sanded, filled, sanded, filled, sanded, filled, blah blah, etc. You get the picture.
I have made further progress than shown here, but I can only post five images at a time.
Depending on the interest, I may post more images.


Thanks for any comments
Robert.
View attachment 78016


View attachment 78017


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

Thanks for the kind words.
This is my first scratch built model. I tried making a Thunderbird 1 model earlier, but it's still standing in the corner of my room, unfinished, looking at me accusingly.
The last of these pictures shows the current status of the Orion.
I intend to make an rtv casting of the shape (master), then make a resin intermaster(?), then add the detailing, windows, etc. at that point.
We'll see.
Robert.


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

*More Orion Progress, and How do I scribe lines?*

I am finished the main fuselage, and am getting ready to make a mold to cast in resin. I intend to scribe panel lines in the body, and lay down some outside panels. This next step will also include laying in the windows.
Is anyone able to describe how to scribe lines in a nice controlled way? I figure that it's going to be fun, seeing as how NOTHING on this ship is straight, level, or parallel.
My next ship is going to be a euclidian dream.
Thanks, 
Robert.


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

*Scribing lines!*



Carson Dyle said:


> Looks great.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That thread took a long time to get through. Too much to drool over. Thanks!
I'll try the tape/primer method. Looks fairly controllable.


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

*Small progress update on Orion Scratchbuild*

Looks like I'll have to tackle the decal issue as I get there. I am thinking of using vinyl letters.
However, I have started carving the inset windows from styrene sheeting.
These will be cut into the bondo styrofoam body. I was going to cast the ship's fuselage from resin then cut that for the wings and the windows, but I can't see any real advantage in doing that, as opposed to using the master.
I have been experimenting with a technique recommended by Carson Dyle, :thumbsup:using strips of vinyl tape, then spraying primer, in several coats, and removing the tape to reveal inset lines. It seems to work, although I'm not sure if the depth of the lines will do. I will probably use this technique, along with some scribing of lines with a dental tool I have. After the inset lines are done, I will also be laying some panels on top of the body as raised detailing. The Bizony book also details some experimentation with paper and foils to create subtle variations on the hull, but I think I'll stick to some of the obvious raised details, and maybe some straightforward panel lines.
Till the next time..
Smoke me a Kipper, I'll be back for breakfast!:wave:


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

*More Orion Progress, wings are being fabricated*

Well, after a few weeks of building my wharf, I am back to my model. The wings are now cut, and since I couldn't find a place to sell me Plexiglass, whatever that really is, I got some acrylic sheets. I had to use fibreglass resin to seal the three layers together. I was worried that the acrylic sheets wouldn't be stiff enough, but after the layers have been stuck together, they are more than straight.
I have also been carving the small thrusters out of mdf, and casting them in flexible dental material. I then cast them in fibreglass resin. 
The only major difficulty left in the building of the master, is how to attach the wings so that they will not come off as the ship is handled. I might cast them separately, then attach them to the final resin casting, or I might do the whole thing at once. I fear a steep learning curve is just around the corner.
Robert.


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## SteveR (Aug 7, 2005)

Robert-el said:


> ... and since I couldn't find a place to sell me Plexiglass, whatever that really is, I got some acrylic sheets.


Here's some info on the difference between plexi and acrylic, for what it's worth:

http://www.reefland.com/forum/diy/10499-plexiglass-vs-acrylic.html


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

Wow! Exactly what I needed. Thanks, Steve!:thumbsup:
Here are a couple of shots of tonights work. Some of the small parts being cast in resin, and the wings are primed, to better evaluate what I need to do next!




SteveR said:


> Here's some info on the difference between plexi and acrylic, for what it's worth:
> 
> http://www.reefland.com/forum/diy/10499-plexiglass-vs-acrylic.html


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## Paulbo (Sep 16, 2004)

That's a very nice piece of work Robert! I can't wait to see more.


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## DX-SFX (Jan 24, 2004)

Plexiglas, Perspex, it's all acrylic. The amount of plasticiser in the mix may vary from manufacturer to manufacturer but it's still basically the same stuff. Acrylic comes in two types, cast and extruded. Cast acrylic is what you'll encounter most of the time, sold in sheets and typically used for things like illuminated shop signs. However it doesn't vac form particularly well except over the shallowest of shapes. When you heat it to forming temperatures, it just turns into something akin to a tough sheet of rubber. For vac forming you need extruded acrylic sheet. This looks identical to cast acrylic but will form much more readily. It still doesn't form as well as styrene for example but it's still formable. Both types of acrylic can be glued using the same adhesives (as each other). Technically, cast acrylic is the better optically, important when making display cases or glazing on a model but to be honest, if you mixed some bits of cast and extruded together, you'd be very hard pressed to tell them apart. Acrylics shouldn't be confused with co-polyester, lexane or similar toughened plastics often used to make riot shields and vandal proof bus shelters.


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

Thanks for the info!
That is a lot of technical information. Glad so many people here are so knowledgeable. 
I am not using the material for vaccuforming, but just to carve wings out of. I had to glue three pieces together, and I used Fibreglass resin. Seems to have worked fine!
Any information on types of tools to do inset parallel lines and or grinding curved shapes on the leading edges of plastic would always be helpful. I'm finding that hand sanding and filling don't always get the job done.
Your post does make me think about using the stuff for a model display case though!
At one point, somewhere on this forum, I did see someone talking about a tripod like stand, that could hold any model, or toy. Can't for the life of me, find that thing again! Anyone else seen this?
Robert.



DX-SFX said:


> Plexiglas, Perspex, it's all acrylic. The amount of plasticiser in the mix may vary from manufacturer to manufacturer but it's still basically the same stuff. Acrylic comes in two types, cast and extruded. Cast acrylic is what you'll encounter most of the time, sold in sheets and typically used for things like illuminated shop signs. However it doesn't vac form particularly well except over the shallowest of shapes. When you heat it to forming temperatures, it just turns into something akin to a tough sheet of rubber. For vac forming you need extruded acrylic sheet. This looks identical to cast acrylic but will form much more readily. It still doesn't form as well as styrene for example but it's still formable. Both types of acrylic can be glued using the same adhesives (as each other). Technically, cast acrylic is the better optically, important when making display cases or glazing on a model but to be honest, if you mixed some bits of cast and extruded together, you'd be very hard pressed to tell them apart. Acrylics shouldn't be confused with co-polyester, lexane or similar toughened plastics often used to make riot shields and vandal proof bus shelters.


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## DX-SFX (Jan 24, 2004)

Acrylic is quite hard to hand work but that's also what makes it durable for model work. Not sure if polyester (fibreglass) resin is quite the right stuff to glue it with but you might 'get away with it'. By rights, you should use a tensol cement or a solvent cement like EMA/Plastruct sell. You can also glue it with chloroform if you can source some. You might want to try gluying a few test pieces together with polyester resin and then try prying them apart before investing too much time finishing the wings just in case there's a problem with delamination. Car body filler, which is basically polyester resin with talcum powder mixed in, seems to stick OK so you might get away with neat polyester resin (but try not to make a habit of it  ). For models this sort of size, simple thin supeglue is as good as any especially if you lightly sand the surfaces first. Superglue bonds to acrylic VERY strongly as you'll find if you accidentally get it where you don't want it.

Perma-Grit blocks are good for hand sanding acrylic if you have a lot of material to remove. Course files work well too. Any kind of abrasive power tool will work but watch the speed as excessive heat will just melt the surface. A Dremel could be used for hollowing out the leading edge intakes although I wonder if making a separate leading edge out of something else and then sticking it on might be a better proposition. At least if things don't go to plan, the main wings won't be spoiled.


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

The same thing, making the leading edge from a separate piece occurred to me as well, but I'll try doing the sanding thing first. That way, if it doesn't work, I can still apply a new piece to the edge. Good point about melting the edge, I hadn't thought of that. Yikes! That would not have been a good day!
The resin has worked quite well, as far as using body filler, I think it would be too thick between the sheets. It's a done deal at this point anyways.
Thanks,
Robert.




DX-SFX said:


> Acrylic is quite hard to hand work but that's also what makes it durable for model work. Not sure if polyester (fibreglass) resin is quite the right stuff to glue it with but you might 'get away with it'. By rights, you should use a tensol cement or a solvent cement like EMA/Plastruct sell. You can also glue it with chloroform if you can source some. You might want to try gluying a few test pieces together with polyester resin and then try prying them apart before investing too much time finishing the wings just in case there's a problem with delamination. Car body filler, which is basically polyester resin with talcum powder mixed in, seems to stick OK so you might get away with neat polyester resin (but try not to make a habit of it  ). For models this sort of size, simple thin supeglue is as good as any especially if you lightly sand the surfaces first. Superglue bonds to acrylic VERY strongly as you'll find if you accidentally get it where you don't want it.
> 
> Perma-Grit blocks are good for hand sanding acrylic if you have a lot of material to remove. Course files work well too. Any kind of abrasive power tool will work but watch the speed as excessive heat will just melt the surface. A Dremel could be used for hollowing out the leading edge intakes although I wonder if making a separate leading edge out of something else and then sticking it on might be a better proposition. At least if things don't go to plan, the main wings won't be spoiled.


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## DX-SFX (Jan 24, 2004)

I wasn't actually suggesting you use filler to stick it all together so much as making the point that a polyester resin based product does stick to acylic quite well. The have a go and see how you get on approach seems to be the way forward. It's certainly shaping up quite nicely.


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

Thanks!
I found a website from the mfg of the acrylic sheeting I bought, and it's www.plaskolite.com. They have a pdf file describing the various methods of fabrication I need. 
http://plaskolite.com/pdf/Acrylic_Sheet_Fabrication_Guide.pdf
They do advise using an air or water stream to cool the tool during any routering.
It did give me a couple of ideas on how to router the edging. 
Back at it!
Robert.






DX-SFX said:


> I wasn't actually suggesting you use filler to stick it all together so much as making the point that a polyester resin based product does stick to acylic quite well. The have a go and see how you get on approach seems to be the way forward. It's certainly shaping up quite nicely.


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## DX-SFX (Jan 24, 2004)

Be cautious if thinking of using water to cool any tooling. H2O and electricity don't mix well.


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

DX-SFX said:


> Be cautious if thinking of using water to cool any tooling. H2O and electricity don't mix well.


You are correct sir!
Anyhow, I tried it without cooling, and it just melted the surface. So, back to hand sanding.
I have also added the small fences in the recessed area of the wings.
Someday, I'll finish this beastie.
Robert.


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## PetarB (Feb 5, 2007)

Robert, that's looking fantastic!


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

*More Orion "progress"*

Okay, it's been a while, but I've been busy with summer. Boo-fricken'-hoo, I know.
Anyways, upon reflection, the windows I'd created didn't have an inset line, as appears in a 3/4 view of the Orion, so, I pulled 'em out! Not quite as painful as pulling teeth, but close. After inserting a few new small styrene panels, I reinserted them back in. Haven't yet filled, but they are fitting. Looks much more like the proper windows now.

P.S. thanks, Petarb. I do appreciate the acknowledgment.
Someday this model will be finished.
Robert.


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## X15-A2 (Jan 21, 2004)

Your model looks really great so far but I also like the looks of your workshop! Wish I had one like that! Keep up the great work.

Phil


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

X15-A2 said:


> Your model looks really great so far but I also like the looks of your workshop! Wish I had one like that! Keep up the great work.
> 
> Phil


Well, it isn't so neat, I tend to spread out when I'm working. At least I do have room! 
Thanks,
Robert.


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## breid (May 8, 2008)

I hadn't noticed this post when I replied to your post about the Eagle. That looks neat to me. I mean I can SEE your work bench top, and the FLOOR, there's no bits of masking tape stuck to it, no bits of styrene or kit parts, no extension cords or air lines to trip over. I have to go and find my broom. Seriously though, I look forward to seeing the Orion finished.


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

*Wing progress*

Well, I have scribed some lines on the top of the starboard wing, and they look pretty good. I used a dental pick, with a fine point. I just pre drew the lines with a pencil, and used the pick, and a ruler, and presto. They don't look bad! However, the intake vents on the leading edge of the wings are another issue. I have used a dremel tool to form the openings, however, as with the rest of the acrylic discussion revealed, the plastic don't like high speed tools. The openings are fairly rough, and will take more sanding, with some as yet undiscovered technique.
The windows got ripped out, and now have a nice inset line, as the original image shows.


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

Looks great. 

For the benefit of those planning their own scratch-build of this subject please feel free to post as many WIP pix as humanly possible.


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

Carson Dyle said:


> Looks great.
> 
> For the benefit of those planning their own scratch-build of this subject please feel free to post as many WIP pix as humanly possible.


Okay, since you asked.
I cut the leading edge off the wing, and before I could get at the line to cut along, I had to (sob)cut off the outboard light panel.
So much for having to INSCRIBE panel lines. Mine will now all be real.

In addition to the wing work, I have also included an image showing my mdf carving of the side thrusters from the upper engine area. I used a knife, and a lot of sanding to get the shape, and then using some dental mold making material I got, (free, because it was outdated) I created the final thruster with fibreglass resin.

P.S. You can only refer to me as human at your own risk.


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## fluke (Feb 27, 2001)

Hey looking good! Very nice work :thumbsup:

Maybe you can make it down to the North Seattle area this Late Sept for 
our local Sci-Fi / fantasy contest.

My wife has family in Surrey.

Were all in this together & keep your stick on the ice!


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

Robert-el said:


> I used a knife, and a lot of sanding to get the shape, and then using some dental mold making material I got, (free, because it was outdated) I created the final thruster with fibreglass resin.


Cheaper than tracking down the kit parts (which would probably be the wrong scale anyway).


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

fluke said:


> Hey looking good! Very nice work :thumbsup:
> 
> Maybe you can make it down to the North Seattle area this Late Sept for
> our local Sci-Fi / fantasy contest.
> ...


Thanks, but between work, and life, I just don't have the time for any travelling this year. 
Funny, my sister lives in Maple Ridge, and is married to a gentleman from Seattle!


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

*Ongoing wing edge design*

Well, a few more weeks of summer, and a few more details. 
The leading edge of the wing was a bummer, as my cut from the wing disintegrated. I fought off tears, and took a cast from the leading edge of the uncut wing, and made a resin casting. I then used a simple half round file, and started filing out the shape until relatively satisfied. The casting isn't perfect yet, and I just used this one to check if this approach will work. With some more refinement, I think this is the way.
Yay!

P.S. I did get the Bowerhouse magazine, very nice, but it didn't really give me any more information that was crucial.

I also finally realized that the wings are not flat, but taper towards the outside edges. This of course led to more tears, then I tore the wings apart, and pulled the centre piece, reset, recut, and reglued all pieces together again. 
My favourite saying is "why do anything once, when you can do it three times?"


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## falcondesigns (Oct 30, 2002)

going along just nicely......great work.alex


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

*More wing updates*

I have molded the wing intake, and cast a second one, for the other wing. I have also glued the first one to the first wing, just to feel better. Not too bad if I say so myself. Maybe a bit more smoothing on the wing intakes. They are quite small, and I have to grind them out by hand, using a dremel tool. Next, I have to re install the outer wing light assembly. 
Robert-El.


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

*yet even more wing updates*

Okay, I have attached both front wing intakes and the outer light assemblies.
In the first image, you can see where I reattached the halves of the wings over a thinner piece of plastic on the outer edge, and the thicker acrylic on the inner edge. This was to achieve the tapering effect. 
The final images show yet another mock effect of the ship in it's final configuration. Some day...(sigh)


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## falcondesigns (Oct 30, 2002)

looks really nice...........I had the Luner Models solid resin of this,it was big,wrong, but big.alex


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

Coming along nicely.


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

*More and more wing madness*

I have now completed the first wing with detailing, and the leading edge slots, along with the just finished "strakes"(?).
As per Master Bower, after trying my own way, I cut the trailing edge of the wings, to allow the strakes to fit into the edge. Previously, I had tried to cut the strakes with a slot in them, but the slot would not cut straight, due to the inherent flexibility and size of the styrene sheets.
The panel lines are cut into the plastic wing with a small needle file.
Next, finish the second wing to the same specs, then start the detailing of the fuselage, and finally, I am going to try to cast the separate pieces in silicone, then make fibreglass resin castings. 
Heheheheh.............
We'll see.
Robert-El.


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## Tim Nolan (Jul 9, 2008)

Man, you've got a load of work in this thing, and it sure shows! Really coming along nicely so far. It will make an incredible addition to your collection I'm sure, and something to be very proud of. Keep us posted as you progress! Thanks for sharing!


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

What Tim said.

:thumbsup:


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

Tim Nolan said:


> Man, you've got a load of work in this thing, and it sure shows! Really coming along nicely so far. It will make an incredible addition to your collection I'm sure, and something to be very proud of. Keep us posted as you progress! Thanks for sharing!





Carson Dyle said:


> What Tim said.
> 
> :thumbsup:


thanks guys!
Been busy with trying to buy a car lately. Back at it soon!
Robert-El


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

*Attention Passengers! Section 14 appears to be without pressure!*

Okay, I finally went too far! I got a nice sharp ginsu type saw, and cut my baby in half! To facilitate the inscribing of the forward facing retro jets, I cut the fuselage in half, just in front of the rear engine cowling.

Then, I measured the retro placement at 18 degree increments around the outer edge, and then used my trusty dremel tool to grind the indentations.

The next step is to reattach the two halves, and make a mould for the retro cowling. 

It's coming along. Soon, I can start the detailing of the fuselage.

Robert-El


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

*Rear Engine area details*

Okay, I have added all the small retro rockets, and the side "ladder" detailing. I used a small part in my junk model box to make a cast for the small retros, and bought a small 1/100 ho scale abs ladder to make the detailing on the side. Attached are a couple of images of the raw castings for the retros, and the ladder detailing.
The next part is going to involve wrapping the lined detailed styrene sheets over the hull to form the panel detailing, along with some more scribing.
You may notice in the second pic, that there is a small delta shaped wing in the background. I actually found the model I had as a kid, of the same ship! It helped me come up with the angles of the wings, as the Bizony book was somewhat nebulous on that detail. 
Robert-El


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## spindrift (Apr 16, 2005)

What stunning- awesome work. i am humbled. Looks spot on accurate- beautiful!
Gary:wave:


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

spindrift said:


> What stunning- awesome work. i am humbled. Looks spot on accurate- beautiful!
> Gary:wave:


Thanks so much. I am starting to think it might actually work out well.
I also feel quite humbled at some of the work on this site. Quite a few real artists out there. And I do think of spaceships as an artform in their own right.
Robert-El.


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## Jericoeagle1 (Dec 28, 2008)

Wow, that's really beautiful I wish I had your talent.


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## AJ-1701 (May 10, 2008)

Outstanding... :thumbsup:

D.I.A.S... Dedication. Imagionation.Artistic talent. Skill That sir is what you have.

Cheers,

Alec.


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

Jericoeagle1 said:


> Wow, that's really beautiful I wish I had your talent.





AJ-1701 said:


> Outstanding... :thumbsup:
> 
> D.I.A.S... Dedication. Imagionation.Artistic talent. Skill That sir is what you have.
> 
> ...


I can't possibly live up to this!:freak:
Thanks,
Robert_el


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

Back at it. 
I'm just adding some of the detailing along the fuselage, with thin sheets of styrene. I have also cut into the fuselage with a dremel tool to form the intake behind the windows. Some of the finer details are just not up to the standards I have seen elsewhere on this forum. Thankfully this ship will be seen from a distance, being the size it is.
I have been drawing onto the hull with a pencil and then attaching the pieces of stripping with cyanoacrylate.
After reattaching the front and back sections of the hull, there has been a crack appearing around the top half of the hull. It hasn't changed in a couple of weeks, however, and I might try to reseam it before I try anything more radical. However, given my luck, it will need a compete rip open, and reattach.

Toodles for now
Robert-El


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## breid (May 8, 2008)

Don't sell yourself short. What I've seen in the past and now looks great. Every artist is their own worst critic. Relish in the accolades, and resist the urge to point every little problem. As far as the crack is concerned, it may be the result of the stresses from separating, then rejoining the hull. That's a good thing because that was a one time event and the crack has done what it's going to do. Fix it and that should be the end of it. However, if it was caused by the expansion and contraction of the hull due to changes in humidity and temperature then it might keep coming back. Everything moves, wood , metal, plastic. If this is the case, I don't know what you should do other than trying to keep the “weather” in your shop as consistent as possible and hope the crack stabilizes. Good luck and keep us posted.

Joe


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

breid said:


> As far as the crack is concerned, it may be the result of the stresses from separating, then rejoining the hull. That's a good thing because that was a one time event and the crack has done what it's going to do. Fix it and that should be the end of it. However, if it was caused by the expansion and contraction of the hull due to changes in humidity and temperature then it might keep coming back. Everything moves, wood , metal, plastic. If this is the case, I don't know what you should do other than trying to keep the “weather” in your shop as consistent as possible and hope the crack stabilizes. Good luck and keep us posted.
> 
> Joe


Roger Wilco!
Thanks. 
You're probably right.
Robert-El.


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## Fozzie (May 25, 2009)

Robert-el said:


> .
> And just to rub salt in it, here is my new car.
> Toodles for now
> Robert-El


You did a much better job of hiding the seams on your model than they did on the car. :tongue:

(Looks like a sweet ride!)


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

Fozzie said:


> You did a much better job of hiding the seams on your model than they did on the car. :tongue:
> 
> (Looks like a sweet ride!)


Hey, I got all this bondo sitting around!
I should get busy on it!
:jest:


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

More side detailing added. In these lighting tests, I can see a great deal of finishing left! 
The airlock went in fine, and I added the bolts to the door by using a sharp pointed dental pick, and used fibreglass resin to simply add small drops and let them dry. 
The cladding is looking good, however, and the wings can be added after I have cast everything in silicone rubber. 
Any advice on this subject is welcome. I am a complete novice!
Robert-El.


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## kdaracal (Jan 24, 2009)

Complete novice? If you are a complete novice, then I must be a baby still in the womb!! I check this thread everyday to see what you've posted new!! Great job, Sir! Stanley would have been lucky to have you on the team back in the day.:thumbsup:


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

kdaracal said:


> Complete novice? If you are a complete novice, then I must be a baby still in the womb!! I check this thread everyday to see what you've posted new!! Great job, Sir! Stanley would have been lucky to have you on the team back in the day.:thumbsup:


Thanks!:thumbsup:
The novice part is referring to the silicone mold process.
Everything else that works or looks good is from doing everything three times.
And lots of bondo!
Not to mention lots of helpful advice from this forum.:thumbsup:
Robert-El.


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## breid (May 8, 2008)

That look's beautiful. The harsh light technique is a great way to spot flaws: which I don't see by the way.

I have a lot of experience with making RTV molds, but only of small things. I've never attempted to pour anything that big. To tell the truth, I was hoping to learn a thing or two from you. I remember that you said that you wanted to make a fiberglass copy, I've only used urethane as a casting medium. I was sourcing mold making materials a few weeks ago, and I can tell you that it's going to be expensive to mold that hull. But on the bright side, you won't have that problem with the crack coming back to haunt you. As always, nice work, and good luck.

Joe


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

Thanks for the kind words. 
Still making changes. The oms pods engine retros were simply too big. I had to rip'em off!  I am now using an old Eagle Booster to cast a somewhat smaller shape in resin, to hollow out later. John Koenig would be aghast.
Still adding more styrene chips for panel detailing. After gluing the pieces to the hull, it seems to help if I sand, lightly, over the tops, to integrate them into the look of the hull. 
The wings are going to have be fitted to the body, temporarily, then I can cast the whole gosh darn thang.
Finally found a version of the straight on shot of the Orion, and it should help with the detailing along the fuselage in front of the cockpit windows, and some behind the cockpit.
The mark along the length of the fuselage is simply some of my pencil lines, to help line up detailing. 
I have filled the crack, and it seems to be holding. Hopefully it was just a one time movement.
Robert-El.


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## falcondesigns (Oct 30, 2002)

This model should be hollow cast in a sleeve mold,that is,an inner sleeve of silicone(saves money on rubber)with a plaster outer shell to make the mold rigid.There are articles on the web that will show you step by step how to do it.You can contact Scott Alexander,he is the master of sleeve molding,on his Atomic City site.You can also contact Michael Knott at Hobbysilicones.com for rubber and resins.He's a great guy and very helpful.For production, the body should be Roto-Cast to save weight and to light if wanted. stay well,alex


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## breid (May 8, 2008)

That just keeps looking better and better. I love the door detail. I have to ask, have you taped the wings on that thing yet and “flown” it around the room..............OH COME ON NOW! We've all done that. I tried it with my Eagle but it was too unwieldy. Great work, keep us posted.

Joe


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## Prowler901 (Jun 27, 2005)

Hangar flying... It's a modeling requirement 

Seriously, great work Robert. This is gonna be one beautiful piece. :thumbsup:


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

Well..., I HAVE noticed that the ship makes some deep rumbling jet type noises, accompanied by the Blue Danube!
Robert-el.


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

falcondesigns said:


> This model should be hollow cast in a sleeve mold,that is,an inner sleeve of silicone(saves money on rubber)with a plaster outer shell to make the mold rigid.There are articles on the web that will show you step by step how to do it.You can contact Scott Alexander,he is the master of sleeve molding,on his Atomic City site.You can also contact Michael Knott at Hobbysilicones.com for rubber and resins.He's a great guy and very helpful.For production, the body should be Roto-Cast to save weight and to light if wanted. stay well,alex


That is exactly what I was planning. I'm just a complete novice at ANY type of actual casting. I did see, on the atomic city site a rather in depth article on how to use clay to create the rubber silicone space, then to pour plaster over the clay, the pull the clay and pour in your silicone. 
The roto mold idea did occur to me, but I have never seen it done. My big question, is, should I cast the wings separate from the fuselage?
I'm going to check out the Hobbysilicones.com web site now.
Thanks for the helpful advice so far!:thumbsup:
Robert-el.:freak:


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## falcondesigns (Oct 30, 2002)

Yes,anything that will potrude from the body will be a hassle to get into one mold.The wings,antennas,windscreen,ect. should all be cast in seperate smaller molds.You must also consider shipping,it is easyer to wrap the other parts and ship in a box,than finding a box that would fit a one piece model,where chance of brakage increases.stay well,alex


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

falcondesigns said:


> Yes,anything that will potrude from the body will be a hassle to get into one mold.The wings,antennas,windscreen,ect. should all be cast in seperate smaller molds.You must also consider shipping,it is easyer to wrap the other parts and ship in a box,than finding a box that would fit a one piece model,where chance of brakage increases.stay well,alex


Well, as far as shipping is concerned, this thing ain't goin' anywhere.:dude:
However, the casting will be easier if the pieces are smaller.
There is a definite desirability for just pulling one piece ships out of a mold, however practicality must take precedence.
Thanks,
Robert-el.


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

Well, it's been a while. The thread keeps moving back into the pack as I leave it!
Anyways, I put new ears on the beast, and drilled out the nose. I used some of my dental silicone to cast the inside of the nose, then smoothed out the casting, and replugged it, with some more bondo, in the nose. It came out reasonably well, and then some more touch up, of course. There has been more detail added with the styrene sheeting as well. The tricky part is to follow what I do KNOW about the detailing, and using the photos I've been able to track down, along with some judicious use of Martin Bower's model, I think I have a reasonably accurate portrayal of this ship. The model parts used to create the small piping, and other details are of course, specific to a scale I'm not working in, nor do I have the budget or time to get the kits If I had. So, the details are a "sketch" of the original, hoping to infer, or remind of the original, not to pretend that this is THE original ship. Getting dangerously close to the part where I have to cast the ship. Not looking forwards to this!
Robert-el.


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## falcondesigns (Oct 30, 2002)

It looks like the Space Clipper so don't worry.....and if your doing a one-off why bother to cast it?Why give yourself a headache?Just finish this one and you'll be a happy man


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

falcondesigns said:


> It looks like the Space Clipper so don't worry.....and if your doing a one-off why bother to cast it?Why give yourself a headache?Just finish this one and you'll be a happy man


You're probably right, however, I promised myself that I would make a copy for an old friend of mine, who is also in the vfx industry. We grew up with 2001 and space:1999 influencing our minds. I haven't spoken with him for a few years, and this would make a really huge surprise, showing up in a package one day!:hat:

I am also concerned that the materials I'm using to make the master may not last very long, holding everything together. 
Thanks,
Robert-el.


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## GKvfx (May 30, 2008)

I would strongly encourage you to contact some of the guys here that have side businesses molding and casting kits. The work is outstanding and there is a market for this subject.

Gene


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## jockdeboer (Sep 9, 2009)

I would love one.


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

jockdeboer said:


> I would love one.



There is NO WAY my model is up to selling for MONEY! I know, you didn't say money, however, I am not a professional modeller, and what I have created is not up to professional standards. Not to be too self denigrating, but I couldn't in all honesty, ever sell one of these things. Seen up close, the craftmanship is okay, but obviously amateurish.
Very flattered, but I simply could not sell anything I have made.
To paraphrase someone famous, "Any model I made wouldn't be worth buying".:lol:
I do believe that Captain Cardboard is going to make one of these one day, and I can only think that it would be fantastic!
Robert-el.


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

Well, Happy New Years to all!
I haven't been too busy with the model lately, though I have cut a slot into the fuselage, to facilitate a metal bar, onto which the wings will be mounted, temporarily. 
Too horrible to post images.:freak:
Slightly off topic, I have some composite shots of a couple of my Alien models from my Deviant Art page.
http://greatbird.deviantart.com/art/Sulaco-in-Earth-Orbit-2-108582309
http://greatbird.deviantart.com/art/Dark-Rendevous-107943670
http://greatbird.deviantart.com/art/Sulaco-107767505
http://greatbird.deviantart.com/art/Sulaco-Near-Jupiter-107763771
Hope everyone has a great 2010!
Robert-el.


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## falcondesigns (Oct 30, 2002)

Hi Robert,I have a page on Deviantart.Look for falcon 49.alex


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## DX-SFX (Jan 24, 2004)

Robert-el said:


> :I am not a professional modeller, and what I have created is not up to professional standards.


Shhh! Don't tell anyone but neither are 90% of the garage kits out there. The pictures of your Orion suggest that it most certainly is in the other 10%.


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## terryr (Feb 11, 2001)

That's nice work. If Stanley Kubrick saw it he'd throw it in the dumpster.


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## flyingfrets (Oct 19, 2001)

Robert, as someone who built quite a few of the old Lunar kits, I believe you're selling yourself *WAY* too short.

The detail shots of your Clipper show few (if any) flaws, and if properly molded & cast, you'd have a VERY saleable kit.

There's certainly something to be said for ownership of a "one-of-a-kind" piece (especially one you made yourself), but trust me, there is *NOTHING* wrong with your workmanship. :thumbsup:


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## Fozzie (May 25, 2009)

terryr said:


> That's nice work. If Stanley Kubrick saw it he'd throw it in the dumpster.


Now THAT's a compliment.


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## SteveR (Aug 7, 2005)

Maybe you should send closeup photos to one of the resin vendors as mentioned by GKvfx? They could evaluate the Orion's patterning from an objective viewpoint.

... cause it sure looks niiiice to me.

But, if in all honesty, it would be too much of a headache for you, then I'd understand that. But "not up to professional standards"? Not from my perspective.


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## razorwyre1 (Jan 28, 2004)

Robert-el said:


> There is NO WAY my model is up to selling for MONEY! I know, you didn't say money, however, I am not a professional modeller, and what I have created is not up to professional standards. Not to be too self denigrating, but I couldn't in all honesty, ever sell one of these things.


may i add my voice to the chorus that says you are underestimating the piece. i think its magnificent.


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## falcondesigns (Oct 30, 2002)

I dont know why you would say that,I have been casting for fiftheen year and I can tell a good pattern when I see one.It is your choice,but I see a demand for this kit.Any help I can give,just ask.alex


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## spindrift (Apr 16, 2005)

Not only is your work "profesional", it is par excellence!! Your work is outstanding- looks perfect to me....once you paint it and put on the markings you will have a studio worthy model!
Yes i wish Moebius would use this aas a pattern for an all new tool Orion!
Gary:wave:


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

Wow! Don't know quite what to say here. Thanks!:wave:
I know that at this scale, the details just don't show the poor craftmanship. 
However, after it's finished, I'm sure the paint and decal detailing will go a long way to make it work!
I'm sticking to my story. 
Anyways,
I've not attached the top scoop, that sits half way back, on top of the fuselage, I'm thinking of using it as a plug to cover a mounting hole. 
I have also finished gouging out the wing mount slot. Pics attached.
The wings are just sitting on the steel mount. Still have to finish the engine pluggy thingy. Whatever that nurnie is in the back of the engines. Still no detailing on the bottom, had to wait to attach the engines to start there. I'm going to have to attach the wings, fill the space, finish the wing root light. Then, tear it off, to allow casting. Yuck.:freak:
Robert-el


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## breid (May 8, 2008)

I have to agree with all of the above compliments. Nothing I've seen so far as lead me to believe that your work is anything but excellent. We know it as flaws, you've made that fact very clear, but so does the work of everyone else who posts here. We're human after all. I'm sure that what's done well on your model far out weighs what's done poorly. But your modesty aside and start basking in all the praise and enjoy it while it last. 
I have to ask, why are going to attach the wings to fill the wing root, then take them apart. Wouldn't it be easier and safer to cast everything first, then fill the root during final assembly? It looks to me like you are just making more work for yourself. With your method, you are probably going to have to do some work on the joint anyway during assembly, why do it twice. Besides “tearing off the wing” sounds like a recipe for complete disaster. 

Joe


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

breid said:


> I have to agree with all of the above compliments. Nothing I've seen so far as lead me to believe that your work is anything but excellent. We know it as flaws, you've made that fact very clear, but so does the work of everyone else who posts here. We're human after all. I'm sure that what's done well on your model far out weighs what's done poorly. But your modesty aside and start basking in all the praise and enjoy it while it last.
> I have to ask, why are going to attach the wings to fill the wing root, then take them apart. Wouldn't it be easier and safer to cast everything first, then fill the root during final assembly? It looks to me like you are just making more work for yourself. With your method, you are probably going to have to do some work on the joint anyway during assembly, why do it twice. Besides “tearing off the wing” sounds like a recipe for complete disaster.
> 
> Joe


I have been looking at the model for about an hour, thinking exactly that.
As it stands, the pieces are just too rough for my liking, to cast as they are, but it would really suck to destroy it now! I am posting another couple of images in a slightly larger format, which shows some of the surface detailing which will need more smoothing. I am still going to have to engrave two more intakes on the top of the fuselage, just behind the cockpit, and smooth out a surface flaw between two of the detailed styrene sheets. The front of the wings also needs some more sanding. The lighting I've been working under, is soft flourescent lighting, and it just doesn't show the critical detailing I need.
Thanks for the advice:wave:, and I'll just get back at it.
Robert-el


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## flyingfrets (Oct 19, 2001)

Robert-el said:


> I am posting another couple of images in a slightly larger format.


Sorry. I still don't see anything wrong with it. 

The graceful compound curves seen in the film (and sadly lost on the Airfix and to a lesser degree, Aurora kits) are very much in evidence on your model.

I've always thought the Clipper was one of the most aesthetically pleasing ships in science fiction (the Orion and Moonbus had no atmosphere to contend with and consequently are much more..."utilitarian" looking).

I dunno. *I* think you'd have essentially a captive audience. If somebody wanted an accurate, large scale model of the Clipper,well, to coin a phrase..."Who you gonna call?"


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## terryr (Feb 11, 2001)

I can see the lumps and bumps. But any great car paint job is the end result of sanding and puttying many times. Same here. It's tedious but everybody has to do it.

Talk to some experts on how to best prep it for the mold.


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

The wings are being fitted more closely to the fuselage (my favourite word), using some bondo, and a plastic bag, to keep it from adhering to the side.
I have also carved in the small wing root light wells, or whatever those things are.
I have also started planning the bottom detailing. Some pieces have been attached. I was half way into planting some of the detailing, when I noticed that the apparent placement was very close to some of the upper ribbed pieces, and then I noticed that I had also cut them to the same width, purely coincidentally. Then I realized that because I had no picture directly relating the upper detailing, with the lower detailing, I had stumbled upon the probable arrangement. Not exactly rocket science in retrospect. (Okay, it IS rocket science!:freak
Vewwwy close now.

Robert-el


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

*Some final detailing*

I was in the progress of a final primer coat for the wings, and had just bought a new can of spray primer, exactly the same stuff, same brand, same label, same product code. Well, you guessed it, NOT THE SAME PAINT! It came out somewhat darker, and I thought, hey who cares? It's somewhat darker, it's only primer. Well, after it dried, it also had a texture! Not good. It was like a rubber texture for a floor, or something. Anyways, after much cussing, I bought some paint stripper, and tried it out on some of the leftover acrylic sheeting I had used making the wings, and lo and behold, it didn't vapourize! So, after a fruitless weekend, one step forwards, two steps back, I almost got back to a close approximation of where I was before. A bit more finishing on the tops of the wings, and the top intake is just sitting there. I think it should be raked back, from the front. No reliable images of that particular spot, that I have.
The bottom is coming along nicely, and soon, SOON, it shall be mastered!
Robert-el


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## Trekkriffic (Mar 20, 2007)

Wow ! You do nice work ! Looks accurate as hell !


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

Trekkriffic said:


> Wow ! You do nice work ! Looks accurate as hell !


Thanks for the encouragement! 
I'm still trying to get all the gunk off the wings, after the primer fiasco. Some more filing, and sanding to go yet. I'm also re scribing the panel lines, again!
The bottom detailing is coming along nicely. All in all, this beasty is about 90% ready!
Robert-el


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## jrice73 (Feb 27, 2005)

Terrific build. That could easily be kitted and turned into a masterpiece.


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

*Still kicking!*

Okay, I've been gone for months! I know, but I've been thinking. (my first mistake) I have been consumed with making a casting of my ship. So, after many months of agonizing, I went to a local plastic supplier, and got about $485 smackaroos of resin, silicons and other goodies. I put two small brass tubes in the base of the main fuselage, and then, wrapped the model in saran wrap, then half an inch of clay. With the two tubes sticking out of the clay, I then covered half of the ship in a cheap resin,( I'll detail this later) then allowed it to set. Then covered the other half in resin, with a trowel. After setting, I removed the resin, the clay and the saran wrap, and put the ship back into the resin casting, using the two brass tubes to register it's position. This is when it went south. You see, the better silicones require a pressure vessel to degass. The cheaper stuff doesn't require this, so, that's what I used. Too bad it has the consistency of soup. Thick soup. So, part of the casting worked, some didn't. However, I have the outer resin shell now, and all I have to do is make a pressure vessel to degass the silicone and try again!
Between some of the decasting processes, I scratched the hull, so it's back to drydock for the ship.

Two pics attached!
Robert-el


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## Lou Dalmaso (Jul 13, 2004)

Robert,
let me add my voice to the growing chorus of folks who would love for you to make this kit available.


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## Lee Staton (May 13, 2000)

I have made many molds without a pressure pot for degassing. First I would brush a thin layer of rubber on the model, and then use my airbrush without paint to just use air pressure to push the rubber into the details and force out bubbles.

Then I learned to pour the balance by pouring a thin stream from a couple of feet above the model. The liquid rubber being squeezed into this stream removes most of the bubbles.

The way you're doing things this might not work for you, but I thought I'd pass along tips that worked VERY successfully for me over the years.

Lee


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## cozmo (Nov 29, 2004)

Nice model.

A few pointers on the silicone mold, if I may?

I didn't see the length anywhere, but it looks to be about two feet. You are going to have a tough time casting the fuselage in one piece. A pressure pot for the mold when you are casting that is going to be a big expense. If the mold will not fit into a pressure pot, you will probably need to degauss the resin when casting, or have larger reservoirs for resin.

There are a lot of undercuts as well. Moving the mold split to the top and bottom will help with most of them. But those vents on the after part are going to be tough.

There are a few nice silicone's that don't need to be degaussed with the added benefit that they are softer than silicone's that do need to be. Vacuuming the silicone can be a real pain and doesn't get rid of the bubbles that form when pouring. I now use the silicone's that don't need degaussing and have been happy with them. Also, pressurizing the master while in the silicone can cause it to implode and only shrinks the bubbles in the mold. They can inflate like a balloon when the pressure is removed.

What Lee says is good advice, though I have never tried the airbrush trick.

Much more good advice can be found here:

Smooth-On


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## machgo (Feb 10, 2010)

I've not de-gassed silicone because I don't have a vacuum pump. But I have pressurized silicone, to 60 to 70 psi, when pouring molds. I have had no issues with bubbles re-inflating, and that's with fairly soft rubbers--25 to 30 shore hardness.

Still, even with pressurized molds, you want to observe the basics of pouring: pour from high up, in a THIN stream, into the lowest portion of the mold--not on the master itself. Let the rubber rise to desired level. You will still get air bubbles, but they will be minimized.

Of course, as mentioned above, if you have large masters, a pressure pot that will hold them will be a wallet buster.

If this has already been covered, my apologies, I skimmed the posts.


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

Yowza! Well, that's a lot of info. I've been reading from the smooth-on website, and that's the stuff I bought. I tried using OOMOO 25 for the silicone, but it had the consistency of thick soup! There was no way for it to be poured thin, I had to practically push it into the bottom layer. The top layer needed to be poured through a funnel, and it just sat there. I ended up with a nice bucket shaped silicone blob. It's fun to boot around the workshop.
I was not intending to pressurize the mold, when casting, just to degass the silicone before pouring, however, I agree, that the pouring process might just do the trick, if done right. I just need a thinner silicone. 
The undercuts *are *going to be a bugger! I have played with the idea of taking off the jets, and casting them separately, but the idea of deconstructing the model, makes me space sick. The windows would also be impossible to remove. I think a thinner silicone and maybe rolling the cast around while it's still setting might help, ala rotomolding.
Nobody said Life was easy.
Robert-el


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## cozmo (Nov 29, 2004)

Heh, if you ever find thin, easy to pour silicone, let me know.

I know you already have the mold form made, but that could be part of the problem with your air traps. There is no rule that you have to pour an entire mold half in one sitting. The silicone sticks to itself very well. The clay can be used to make temporary dams that will allow you to work on one section at a time and still not have a huge silicone mold.

On the bright side, you now have some experience and know how the silicone acts.


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## falcondesigns (Oct 30, 2002)

Was wondering where you went...........


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

cozmo said:


> Heh, if you ever find thin, easy to pour silicone, let me know.
> 
> I know you already have the mold form made, but that could be part of the problem with your air traps. There is no rule that you have to pour an entire mold half in one sitting. The silicone sticks to itself very well. The clay can be used to make temporary dams that will allow you to work on one section at a time and still not have a huge silicone mold.
> 
> On the bright side, you now have some experience and know how the silicone acts.


That could be helpful in making the mold more manageable. I'm not sure the top half could be done that way however.
And, Yes, I'm getting more experienced every day!:drunk:
Some of the silicones seem to have a longer pot life, and that may help.
If anyone can recommend a Smooth-on product that would be more appropriate, that would be helpful.
Thanks,
Robert-el


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## machgo (Feb 10, 2010)

I'm surprised you had trouble with OOMOO 25. I've used quite a bit of it with no issues. If you haven't already, try OOMOO 30.

What I usually do is put the master in the mold box on the floor and pour SLOWLY from waist high--about three feet in my case. 

I use a bamboo skewer over the opening of the "pot," a one quart all purpose mixing bucket, so the silicone runs down the stick in a thin stream. This gives 2 benefits: it lets bubbles break before getting to the mold box/master, and it lets you aim the silicone as it's pouring. I try to get a stream less than 1/8th thick flowing off the skewer. 

You will get air bubbles despite Smooth-On's claims it will de-air itself. Most of the bubbles though are air entrapment as it flows up on the master. But I've found this product to be quite good. You can work it carefully with a brush to pop bubbles, but this is easier said than done, as manipulating the stuff often introduces air bubbles.

If you are not going to pressure cast the resin, then air bubbles just under the surface of the silicone molds won't be an issue for you. They won't show up in your resin casts. What you need to be concerned with is air bubbles at the immediate surface of the master and silicone--they will affect your resin casts. 

You can try brushing on thin layers of silicone until you build up a thickness over which you can pour a "mother" mold of more silicone. As Cozmo said, silicone sticks to itself great. This should help eliminate air bubbles at the master/silicone interface.

Choose your resin pour opening location carefully, as getting the resin to de-air/release the air in the mold can be trickier than the rubber! Design sprues into your master to allow for air/resin to travel to area that would otherwise be cut off.

Mold making and resin casting is a lot of fun, but like anything else, it's a learning process. Keep a notebook handy and write down your observations for each success and "failure." I put failure in quotes because it's really only a failure if you don't learn something.


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## cozmo (Nov 29, 2004)

Don't worry about halves so much as undercuts and where a good place for splits, fill holes and vents will be located.

When pouring the silicone, the model does not need to be flat. With some dams and forethought, you can make many pours at different angles.

Looks like you used OOMOO25 with the shorter pot life and I see now that the master is closer to three' than two. That's a lot of silicone to pour in a short time.

The OOMOO's have a low viscosity for silicone and look to be your best bet. I use OOMOO 30, its bluish in color, stronger stuff and a little lower in viscosity than the 25. You also don't have to weigh the stuff, or add thinners.

I can't offer much more advice other than to make the mold in sections so you have time to work out all the bubbles. Or, start with something smaller.

Either have an extra mold box ready for the unused silicone, or use rice to determine the volume you will need for each pour.

I fully agree with what machgo wrote

Silicone is great stuff. You can reuse the stuff many times. Just cut it up and put the chunks around the edges of the new mold for filler. I cut apart one old mold that had a pink chunk inside of a green chunk inside of a purple chunk.


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## breid (May 8, 2008)

Robert, I've also been using Smooth On's OOMOO 25 RTV and Smooth Cast 310 resin without any problems for months now. I do not vacuum degas the RTV but do put the molds in a pressure pot charged to 40 psi. I do pour the RTV into the mold box from about a foot away to get a nice thin stream and let the rubber cover the master slowly. I'll gently tap the side of the box to release trapped air after it's full. I've never had an instant where the rubber trapped an air bubble or failed to cover the master completely. I like the 25 and 310 because they have longer pot life and allow me to get five, six or even more molds into the pot before it sets up. I've never attempted a mold as big as you are doing and if this is your first time doing something like this I would start with a smaller mold first. Since you can't pressure cast I would experiment on something little to see how both the RTV and resin behave. As far as your fuselage is concerned, I would change the parting line to run along the top and bottom. I think this would help the engine undercuts release easier from the rubber and also make venting the mold easier. I would also have the resin pour in from the tail. Have you thought about how you are going to register the mold halves and clamp them together while pouring the resin. For what it's worth I have dozens of pictures of molds I've been making for my moon bus, I would be happy to send some of them to you if you think they might help. 

Joe


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

breid said:


> Robert, I've also been using Smooth On's OOMOO 25 RTV and Smooth Cast 310 resin without any problems for months now. I do not vacuum degas the RTV but do put the molds in a pressure pot charged to 40 psi. I do pour the RTV into the mold box from about a foot away to get a nice thin stream and let the rubber cover the master slowly. I'll gently tap the side of the box to release trapped air after it's full. I've never had an instant where the rubber trapped an air bubble or failed to cover the master completely. I like the 25 and 310 because they have longer pot life and allow me to get five, six or even more molds into the pot before it sets up. I've never attempted a mold as big as you are doing and if this is your first time doing something like this I would start with a smaller mold first. Since you can't pressure cast I would experiment on something little to see how both the RTV and resin behave. As far as your fuselage is concerned, I would change the parting line to run along the top and bottom. I think this would help the engine undercuts release easier from the rubber and also make venting the mold easier. I would also have the resin pour in from the tail. Have you thought about how you are going to register the mold halves and clamp them together while pouring the resin. For what it's worth I have dozens of pictures of molds I've been making for my moon bus, I would be happy to send some of them to you if you think they might help.
> 
> Joe


You are probably right about running the parting line along the top and bottom. I can just reseal the two halves of the junk mold together, and recut them in a different plane. 
When I mixed the oomoo up, it really didn't seem as though it would pour at all. I don't know how I could have screwed it up, but it just wasn't going to pour, as much as glob.
Pouring from the tail is a good idea as well.
I think it's just a matter of playing with the stuff.

Robert-el


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

Well, after much more pain and suffering, and another OOMOO pour, I have come to the conclusion, that a previous suggestion that I try painting the OOMOO on, instead of the pour, I will try it. There is no way in Seven Hells that the OOMOO is going to take the shape and not bubble, while missing areas altogether.
I would post pics, but they are sad, and make me look stoopid.
Any suggestions on how to apply the silicone over a tubular and rounded shape, without wearing the stuff would be appreciated!
Thanks,
Robert-el


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## SteveR (Aug 7, 2005)

Mount the fuselage on a spit, hooked up to a motor with a really high gear ratio so it rotates reeeeeeally slowly, then brush the stuff on top?


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## Lou Dalmaso (Jul 13, 2004)

baste it every 10 minutes. cook until done


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## cozmo (Nov 29, 2004)

Just pick a spot and paint a section at a time. Great, tornado siren is going off. There is a tornado in Dallas, adios.

Never mind, it missed to the west...by about two miles The one to the east was about 12 miles away. Dang Hermine.

Looks like it went right over Love Field. Minimal Tornado, but the Frontiers of Flight museum was in its path. They have a nice T-33 parked outside, and a Jupiter rocket.

As I was writing, do a section at a time the silicone will stick to itself.


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

Lou Dalmaso said:


> baste it every 10 minutes. cook until done


.....yeah, thanks.
I think.
Will try the painting on method. 
Robert-el


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

*Pour over method attempt 1*

Well, I am now using a variant on the (unsuccessful) casting method I was using. I have taken many of the suggestions to heart, and am making smaller, sectioned pours, going over the top, instead of pouring into a rough mold.
The smaller rear and forward jets have all been removed. This will make the casting a lot easier, and the jets can be recast directly in smoothcast 310.
I am also using a vertical longitudinal parting line instead. 
I am feeling fairly positive about this method. 
The images are being posted on my deviantart page.
http://robby-robert.deviantart.com/gallery/#2001-Orion-Space-Clipper
As soon as the first pour is cured, I'll remove the first section, and set a second one, then pour a second section.
Robert-el


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

I finally got downtown and bought some more OOMOO 25 to finish up the first side of the Orion. After removing the clay dam, I have applied some hard shell fibreglass to the outside of the silicone. A small part of the applied silicone was removed because it was too thin, and upon examination, the detailing was perfect, along with virtually no bubbles. Hopefully, after applying the second half, and removal, it will be worth the effort. Otherwise, it's the crying game time.
Pics posted at Deviant art.
http://robby-robert.deviantart.com/gallery/#2001-Orion-Space-Clipper


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## johnF (Aug 31, 2010)

*MoonLiner*

Hi Robert, 
This is my first here on Hobby talk. I have been watching your build with great interest.
I worked professionally making silicon mold and was trying to figure out a way of explaining how we did at my work. I never took any photos as our stuff was for the gamming industry, and they get very weird about photos.
What I want to show you is great article from Atomic city on the making of molds for a Disney Moonliner. Being that its shape is similar your Orion I hope I am not too late in getting to you. Since this is my first post, I am not allowed to insert the link, so go to atomiccity.yuku.com and look up the article.
Hope this helps.

John


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## Carson Dyle (May 7, 2003)

Here ya go...

http://atomiccity.yuku.com/topic/516/t/Mastering-the-1955-Moonliner-how-we-did-it.html


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

johnF said:


> Hi Robert,
> This is my first here on Hobby talk. I have been watching your build with great interest.
> I worked professionally making silicon mold and was trying to figure out a way of explaining how we did at my work. I never took any photos as our stuff was for the gamming industry, and they get very weird about photos.
> What I want to show you is great article from Atomic city on the making of molds for a Disney Moonliner. Being that its shape is similar your Orion I hope I am not too late in getting to you. Since this is my first post, I am not allowed to insert the link, so go to atomiccity.yuku.com and look up the article.
> ...


Hi John! 
Thanks for the article. I had actually read that article several months ago! A very revealing one, and it did partially inspire my own approach. Being a novice at this, its simply going to take me a while to go through my own learning curve, although, the moonliner is helpful. My ship is different enough, that I needed a different approach for molding. I am hopeful I am on the right track at this point. It's still going to take me a while to get to the next step, but it's moving along!
Thanks to Carson dyle as well!
Robert-el


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## srspicer (Oct 14, 2007)

Been following your build for while, looking forward to seeing the finished model!

Regards,

Scott


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

srspicer said:


> Been following your build for while, looking forward to seeing the finished model!
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Scott


You and me both!
Soon, sooon.
I have an almost usable molding. The pour over method almost did it, but I am going to have to modify how I did it. Probably take off the side oms engine hoods, on the side of the rear engine cowlings. Everything else is tantalizingly close. Thanks!
Robert-el


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## LeonArtO3D (Oct 25, 2010)

*Greets and Invitation*

Robby, Thanks for all the wonderful work you've done on this glorious model. You've inspired and given us all new insight into the details of not only this model but creating models in general. I've mentioned your thread over in the Luxology Forums, where I'm working on a 3D version of Orion III.

http://forums.luxology.com/discussion/topic.aspx?id=50208&page=0

Hope you enjoy it, and you are welcome to chime in any time with comments and criticism. I'm pretty thick skinned, for an old geezer.

I'm not selling mine either. But I am giving it away to all the modelers, along with all the files and drawings, when I get it done. Maybe that will help repay all the help that others, like you, have been to me, fueling my own creativity.

Thanks again
Leon


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## Robert-el (Sep 6, 2008)

LeonArtO3D said:


> Robby, Thanks for all the wonderful work you've done on this glorious model. You've inspired and given us all new insight into the details of not only this model but creating models in general. I've mentioned your thread over in the Luxology Forums, where I'm working on a 3D version of Orion III.
> 
> http://forums.luxology.com/discussion/topic.aspx?id=50208&page=0
> 
> ...


Well, it looks like you've found all the same rare images I had. I only came upon a couple of the more rare ones, after much building. 
I'm afraid the leading edge of the wings seem to be indented on the upper part of the wing only, not evenly top and bottom. My wings are indented up and down. Oh well, that's one advantage to doing 3d models. Easier to update. I did notice on one of your renders, that the rear "ladder" like structure, below the rear oms engine pods, seem to be indented. I think you'll find they are outies, not insies!
*Otherwise, absolutely beautiful job sir!*
I am struggling with the molding process and just don't feel like playing with this thing right now. I've been at it for almost two years, and I just want it done. No more frickkin' around. I will probably get at it, around december.
Robert-el


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## LeonArtO3D (Oct 25, 2010)

Robert-el said:


> Well, it looks like you've found all the same rare images I had. I only came upon a couple of the more rare ones, after much building.
> I'm afraid the leading edge of the wings seem to be indented on the upper part of the wing only, not evenly top and bottom. My wings are indented up and down. Oh well, that's one advantage to doing 3d models. Easier to update. I did notice on one of your renders, that the rear "ladder" like structure, below the rear oms engine pods, seem to be indented. I think you'll find they are outies, not insies!
> *Otherwise, absolutely beautiful job sir!*
> I am struggling with the molding process and just don't feel like playing with this thing right now. I've been at it for almost two years, and I just want it done. No more frickkin' around. I will probably get at it, around december.
> Robert-el


I only want to clarify one point. The models you see in the thread that have textures of surface details are by B.J. West, not me. I have taken his model and rebuilt it a little at a time to get familiar with the structure and to test some of my own modeling techniques and experiment in various ways. None of those have any textures. That basic structure is unsuitable for my model which will be built from scratch. I have been making drawings of greater and greater accuracy and detail, and when I have that job done, I will make my final model. I will be making an intermediate model to test out my design and textures, and should have some of that model up fairly soon. I will be sure to announce that it is my own model when I do it.

I've only been at this for 4 months but I know how you feel, wanting to get it done and move on. I'd estimate that mine will take a year, simply because I know the final details will not be available for about 9 months, but even that is not written in stone. Then again, I'm only interested in doing it perfectly, or not at all.


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