# Brushless/LiPo Is On a Slippery Slope



## McLin (Dec 5, 2001)

When the subject of LiPo and Brushless first came up, it looked like it was going to be something that was too good to be true. From the new guy to the old farts; buy a couple of packs and a motor and go racing. No muss, no fuss. 

Unfortunately, it is going to end up no better than anything that we have right now because the manufacturers can’t or won’t leave it alone. I’ve heard people say that “I will not go LiPo racing until the matchers start matching the cells.” 

Translated that means; “I’ll race it as soon as I can get free batteries that will be better than anyone else can get.” 

Manufacturers have to have team drivers and I am all for that but PLEASE don’t insult my intelligence by telling me that because these cells are “so close” to start with, everyone will be able to buy what the team drivers get. If they are so darn close, why are the matchers messing with them in the first place?

As for the motors:

I can live with the sintered rotor when it came out because even though it seemed “new” to us, we were not in on the beginning of this deal. The brushless motor had been around over three years before it finally caught on in oval racing so it was time for an update. No big deal. But Novak WHY did we need the bigger rotor?

Now the biggie…speed controls.

You can put some controls on the battery, you can put some controls on the motors but there is NO WAY to put any controls that can be teched (at a race track) on the speed control and THIS is where the advantages are going to come from. 

The first thing people say at a big race is “this team driver had a better motor or better batteries” but no one has ever considered that “some” of them had “special” speed controls. I started seeing these YEARS ago at a race when “Brand X” team drivers were given hand out speed controls and put new ones in two or three times during the race day. I saw this with my own eyes. But it was not “that” big of a deal with brushed motors.

But now, with the speed control playing a MUCH bigger part in the equation, this type of thing will ruin brushless racing. I only have second hand information about this part but a “reliable source” told me that a “certain company” at a “certain big race” handed out speed controls to their brushless team drivers that you or I would have to write a check in the FOUR digits to own one. (And they took them back when the race was over.)

This is the direction that things are going to go unless we as racers don’t “insist” on using only ONE set of rules and also insist that the organization only allow ONE manufacturer’s motors and speed controls.

The BRL is the only organization now that has any rules for brushless motors and hopefully, they will soon adapt LiPo batteries. We don’t need any other organization to cloud the waters with “different” rules. I sincerely hope that Sonny stands his ground and will only allow ONE company to make his motors and speed controls.


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## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

...you know what they say McLin..and I don't think I need to repete it.

I can tell you, right NOW our racing is exciting, fun, and THE MOST competitive racing we've seen in YEARS... so I'm sure someone will try to SCREW it up.

I had a call just yesterday from a guy who just moved up into the 17.5/LIPO division. He's a guy who's been running mostly stock for years. He's also a guy who has said year after year that he felt he could drive with some of the big boys...but he was NOT willing to spend the $$$ to keep up, and he felt he could never BUY the same equipment as the SPONSORED Big Dogs.

Since he's gone 17.5/LIPO he's had a VERY competitive car, he is extatic and very excited about the NEW 21.5 motor coming too, so he can run 2 classes on race day...and NOT have to worry about rebuilding motors between runs.

The upside? The 17.5/LIPO class is taking off quickly and rapidly becoming our biggest class. Drivers have moved up from STOCK and down from MODIFIED...plus nearly ALL of the 10.5 drivers have switched over.

The downside? Our STOCK class has pretty much DIED in the last 2 months. Hopefully the racers who ran STOCK will adopt to the 21.5 and we'll see a resurgence.

...ps - Sonny allows LRP ECS's too I do believe.


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## AJS (Mar 21, 2002)

McLin, I hope you are wrong, but I doubt that you are. I'm sure that some mfg's. or racers will find way to screw up LIPO and BRUSHLESS, they alway seem to be able to. I don't understand why they can't just leave things alone, the racing with the brushless has been so close and competitive, some of the best racing I've ever seen, but now with meters and trick speed controls, I think we are headed down the slippery Slope. 

I did pose the question on RCTECH to SMC about any testing that has been done on a large group of Lipos just to see how close they are in performance and Mr. Rimers posted that they had randomly check serveral packs and that they were virtually the same.

I'm pretty sure that Sonny only allows the orginal and the 2nd version of the LRP in the BRL.


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## t4mania (Aug 30, 2007)

The rc mfrs have been controlling the market since it began. New stock motor every month, bigger, better, faster and everyone rushes out to buy it. Next month the same thing. Batteries have always been the same way too. Better runtime #'s, higher voltage, better IR and once again everyone rushes out to get them. Carbon fiber parts, aluminum, titanium you name it they got it for a hefty price tag. And they really don't add a thing to your car that better driving wouldn't do. Someone will find a way to start this cycle all over again with brushless/li-po and it won't be long at all and we'll all be right back in the same boat.


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## Hick (May 22, 2007)

Back in the day with Bob Hanna, Marty Smith, Gaylon Mosier and Roger Decosta were factory sponsored riders from Honda, Yamaha, Maico, and Sazuki, winning everything that came their way. 

Many MX Riders felt that the "factory riders" had an unfair advantage. To ensure that everyone at least had a shot at the latest and greatest they AMA came up with the "claiming rule". Sort of put the kybosh on "trick" equipment. The factorys didn't like have a $5000.00 research bike being taken away from them for $1500.00.

Many other forms of racing have a "claiming rule" to ... why not?


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## ToddFalkowski (Aug 31, 2006)

Hick said:


> Many other forms of racing have a "claiming rule" to ... why not?


For years, tracks had a claim rule. Stock motor was $20, think now around $40. Problem is, $250 claim rule? (Thinking for motor and speedo) How many guys (except the ones that'll buy their way through) will pull a few Benjamins out of his pocket on a race night?

McLin- I TOTALLY AGREE with you. Brushless, and LiPo _CAN_ be made good. It's up to manufacturers and organizations to keep it all in check. Chances of that happening, well, we'll see...


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## 420 Tech R/C (Sep 15, 2006)

You guys are right, it has always been the bigger better faster more story in r/c. It used to be the same way in real size racing until clubs and sanctioning bodies started ACTIVELY governing the specs people raced by.By actively I mean general specs,not by manufacturer, but by the specs of the equipment. The closest thing I have seen to that in r/c is the bolink legends class. The problem was the only people that manufactured the components that were legal to run were bolink and trinity.I personally dont like either novak or LRP electronics. They are far overpriced for what you are really getting, and I refuse to pay for a name. Tekin is no better. I think I have the answer for the speedo problem you guys are talking about. Look into the new Traxxass brushless set-up. I know , its made by what has become a glorified toy maker. But heres the deal, I own one. it's cheap, durable, will run sensored, sensorless, and brushed motors, it has profiles built into it that CANNOT be edited or tampered with, and is li-po compatible.It also auto detects which type of motor you are running.with 6-cell or 7.4 lipo there is no need to run a cooling fan even with a 3.5 sensored novak motor.Plus it comes with a VERY drivable 3500 Kv motor that is equal in performance to a novak 8.5. I ran one in my dirt car this season and loved it.Loved it so much I sold off my novak set-up. Ihate to say it but it would be one of the best options for the SPEC style racing you are talking about.so pick a speedo and make it a spec speed control.Not to mention for $170.00 you have a set-up that will run any motor on the market without having to pair wires to run a brushed motor. I do not usually like traxxass stuff, but this set-up is the whip for under 2 bills. and yes it is 4-cell compatible.As for the li-po's , they WILL screw that up if people buy into it. as long as the rules allow enough room for interpretation people will fingd a way to get the edge, so make the rules stringent and VERY defined for every class except for open mod classes.


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## LARCGuy (Apr 18, 2004)

Racers are always going to push for more speed. Bad or not, they do. I personally love the brushless/lipo combo and think it will be very successful in the series' I race in that have specific rules. A local track I race at has no battery limit, so I am sure the 3600 will be in cars as soon as it's shipped. Will it be faster? I'd say no in 17.5 or 21.5, but there will be racers who buy them because they will be convinced that is why they are being beat. It will never occur to them that when they hit the wall five times, it might have had something to do with their car being a little off the pace.

I'll give you another example of racers that will be convinced that if someone fast is doing something different, it must be better. At the last Velodrome race I attended, the 17.5/lipo - 10.5/4 cell classes were run together. We had never done any testing with the 17.5/lipo combo on this track before it was decided to allow it, so we didn't quite know what to expect. We had done testing with the 10.5 motor using the 3200, so we knew what to expect with that combo. Well as it turns out, the lipo's discharge curve really blew away the 4 cell 10.5 cars and everybody rushed to the *new* fast guys to see what they were doing. Well as it turns out, they were charging their lipo's at 10 amps. They didn't have a clue how a lipo battery pack functions, but because they were fast, it had to be the "fast" thing to do. Won't be long before some knucklehead roman candles his lipo on the pit table.

I think the majority of racers just want a fair and competitive class structure. Hopefully it stays sane.


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## NovakTwo (Feb 8, 2006)

Some of the comments above are really mixing apples and oranges, or in this instance modified and stock/spec concerns.

Modified racing will only get more complicated (and expensive) in the future as the rules are opened up to BL sensorless products, LiPo batteries and custom speed controls. That is just the way it will be--the wild, wild West---if you think it's bad now, just wait. 

Some Race Directors are already allowing un-approved (ROAR), "one-off" sensored BL motors to compete against off-the-shelf, available motors. There's a win at any cost mentality that has always plagued modified racing. Remember, those companies are not concerned with how much a custom esc/motor costs, because they have no intention of making it available to the paying customer.

It's even debatable whether or not Novak will continue to participate in future mod events as they continue to spiral out of control. We do not have the resources or the WAAC mentality to make increasingly complex, special custom products for top racers.

So, it's only spec-type racing that will be available to the average racer. These spec events will have to be tightly controlled to avoid the problems that infest mod events.

Novak already offers the XBR Sport controller, which has the same street price as the Traxxas esc. If spec race directors/racers wants an even more limited controller, Novak can certainly provide it. What features do you think we should leave out?

The issues outlined above need to be addressed from the bottom-up, by designing products with spec racing in mind. Despite the criticism, Novak believes that the items it currently offers are a huge step forward in building a base for spec racing.


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## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

NOVAKTWO

well said~


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## JB (Jan 1, 1970)

McLin and NovakTwo:

Both of your posts are right to the point. Now, would either or both of you like to use the rope I have been pushing for 12 years?? :woohoo:


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## NovakTwo (Feb 8, 2006)

JB said:


> McLin and NovakTwo:
> 
> Both of your posts are right to the point. Now, would either or both of you like to use the rope I have been pushing for 12 years?? :woohoo:


Got my own rope----been pushin' for 30 years.....


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## McLin (Dec 5, 2001)

Let me say up front that, as most of you know, I love racing. But I don’t race for the “fun” of it although it is more fun than anything I have ever done; I race to win. I love the competition but I don’t expect it to be even. As I have said before “fair” is something you pay to ride a bus. This is racing and every single one of us work and search for an edge. When a racing rule is made, it’s our “job” to bend it and twist it to make it work to our advantage. BUT you can’t bend and twist it until it breaks.

When manufacturers build “special” equipment for their drivers that will never see the over the counter market……that’s cheating.

As for charging the LiPo’s: if there are IDIOTS out there that are charging LiPo’s at 10 amps after ALL of the talk and discussion that has gone on about that, I can’t say that I can feel sorry for the when one of them lights up. This is one time when someone needs to step in and educate them before they really do get hurt. That is flat STUPID and has nothing to do with finding an “edge”! Personally, if that persisted, I would eject them from the track before they hurt someone.


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## billjacobs (Jul 26, 2004)

*lipo and brushless*

The problem I see is that very few people actually want to race based solely on their driving ability. Most racers want to have an edge regardless of what that mentality does to racing and turnout.

This need to have an edge is what fuels the ever growing cost of some classes (touring cars.) For brushless motors, the simple solution is to pick a specific brushless motor (can, rotor, etc.) and call it stock. If the brushed racers complain, too bad. Within a few months they will all be running the same brushless systems. The problem is that those in charge try to be fair to everyone, and you simply can't do that. In terms of speed controllers, pick a controller (GTB or LRP) and leave it at that. The same thing will happen that will happen with the motors, people will complain, then they will fall in line.

What I find interesting is that race organizers always try to cater to the whims of the local hot shoe, who are usually sponsored by a battery and motor company and have a vested interest in keeping nimh and brushed motors. The funny thing is that these local hot shoes usually spend the least at the hoby shop, because they ARE SPONSORED. Rules should be set to benefit the majority, not the minority, and in racing, all advantages clearly lie with brushless motors and Lipo batteries (once you revise the rules for LIPO chassis weight.) I have switched to lipo and brushless and will never go back. Not having to WASTE money and time to run my models (replace brushes, care for batteries, etc) after I buy the electronics is the best thing to come along in r/c in 10 years.

Again, the problem is that the people who are complaining the loudest are the people who have the most to lose if things change. It is not the hobbyists job to support battery matchers and motor tuners. The best thing that can happen to r/c in the next 10 years is if the playing field in terms of batteries and motors is leveled. And the only way to do that is to create and impose rules limiting what racers can use.

The big question I am asking is what value do the current rules of any electronics and any battery, and class specific motor type bring to racing model cars. If everyone ran one of 3 similar spec systems, instead of the current 100, how would the hobbyist be hurt? 

In terms of charging Lipo's, I have been using lipos for close to a year, and the simple fact is that aside from finishing the charge right before your race starts, there is no benefit to charging at a higher amperage, or doing anything else. If knuckleheads want to charge lipo's at 10 amps, they are a danger to everyone at the track.


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## McLin (Dec 5, 2001)

Bill, I don’t know you but you are an instant friend! LOL Everything you just said is right on the money.

Let the off road boys, TC boys and road course boys have all the motors, rotors, batteries and electronics they want. Oval racing is so small that it will not make or break any of the companies that make those things. WE NEED TO BRING OUR RACING BACK INTO CHECK. And the only way to do that is to only allow ONE battery company, ONE motor company and ONE speed control company in LiPo/Brushless racing. If there is no competition between these manufacturers there will be no need for upgrading every six weeks or making “special” equipment. 

And this is the very reason why we should not wait for ROAR to make rules and approve products for LiPo/Brushless racing. This is not a slam on ROAR by any means but they have rules for all types of RC racing and have to approve products from all the companies. For Brushless/LiPo racing we have all we need …. The BRL.

ARCOR understood this situation and was taking steps in that direction. If individual tracks go off in all kinds of different directions we will have a real mess. We have the opportunity here to almost start all over again with Oval rules………lets not blow it again.


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## katf1sh (Jan 17, 2002)

man i'm insulted along with the entire florida oval community!

we saw the hand wound 19 turn getting way out of control and put a stop to it with ultrabird motors only.

the focar series along with most other florida ovals only allow novak motors and LRP and novak speedos. as new speedos come out testing will need to be done to allow them. 

nothing and i mean nothing stops novak or lrp from installing custom parts in a current esc now..we would never know...

but i ask this....if my battery has 5 volts of power and my current esc passes along 5 volts to my motor now.....what would a one off esc do for my 5 volt battery pack in stock or 19 turn? 


think back to 1986 and all the esc,battery and motor technology we have seen...

do you realy think lipo and brushless will not evolve? maybe even faster?

your local club/track and series needs to police things..it is the only way to save ourselves from ourselves....floirda has been laughed at for years now because we went ultrabird motors only and capped the mah reading on the cells each and every year. 

i read every day how good lipo is and how it will save racing...LOL 

why would a battery matcher feel the need to match lipo cells? c'mon he either matches lipo cells or goes out of business.....

do we need 300.00 meters to race?
do we need 1,000 esc's to race
do we need matched batteries to race?

radios,chargers and cars are at a all time high as far as quality and availability...and prices have been kept down on them as well..

we are now being beat up by crappy cells and evolving brushless technology...we are paying a heavy price for things that were cheap a few years ago.....

stock motor 25.00
stock brushless motor 80.00 new rotors and gimmicks priceless
batteries gp3300 dead short and run it until it falls apart 35.00
IB cells go bad in the battery box they were shipped in! 


brushless should and can be way cheaper for us all if we slowed our roll on gimmicks.
batteries are a different story right now..we are at the manufacturers mercy.

lipos are dangerous...expensive up front but cost effective over time.they offer way to much voltage for 95% of us and would require guys to buy yet another new brushless motor along with a charger.

and mclin danny at smc has been telling us for months if not a year now that lipo's are not going to be better or cheaper..just different

oval could realy use a commitee to draw up some basic rules for racing...but who has that kind of time?


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## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

Wow...we got our local club back up and off the ground today (after fighting local red tape since mid July) 

California was hit today with 40-50 mph winds all up and down the state...and we got hit with them too (which sucked for our first revived club racing) but all of us who showed had a GREAT TIME.

In an effort to just get racing back up and running again we set up a combined Oval /Road Course track. We had 2 classess of OVAL vehicles running.

1)NASTRUCK BODIED Cars

2) STOCK CAR Bodied Cars.

In the NASTRUCK class we had one guy who ran a 4 cell STOCK motor/battery combo while I believe we had ONE 19t/4cell and a handful of 10.5 / 4cell trucks.

Speeds weren't too far off, except for the STOCK motored truck - he was about 1/2 second a lap slower.....but we did a LAP format similar to what we ran a couple weeks ago at our "Cruzin for Life" Car show race.

We did 30 lap qualifiers..and a 70 lap main. Lap times were in the 5.3 to 5.5 range for the fast trucks.

The 30 lap qualifiers took just under 3 minutes each..and the 70 lap main took like 6:45. The racing was a BLAST.

Our STOCK CAR BODIED Class run

10.5/4 cell, 17.5 LIPO, 2wd Pan Car, 4 wd Touring Car..one with 19t/6 cell, one with 10.5 LIPO....and ONE with just a STOCK motor.

This was all in effort to have FUN. It was strange at how close we were able to make the cars by working together on making them run close....yet be competitive... THEN IT was up to the DRIVERS to be able to our WHEEL each other. What a bunch of FUN we had in the ridiculous 40+ mph wind.


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## FishRC (Sep 28, 2001)

Having been in RC a long time now, LiPo and brushless are just the latest new development in racing. The time to adapt to the change might be a bit for some, but the change to LiPo and brushless as king of the track will happen. They both offer more for less and are proven to be a big step forward for racing. The effect on RC moving to LiPo and brushless is very much like when the RC10 originally was introduced. The effect is without moving to LiPo, nickel based cells just will not compete in the wider marketplace. What might force the hand is that RC is not a big enough market for building nickel based cells only as we have seen in the past. With the really big buyers of cells moving to LiPo, development of quality cells with greater capacitance is going to become unlikely. All your power tools, camera, handhelds moving to LiPo, it’s a matter of time before nickel based cells just are not profitable to build.
Brushless is the other half of this as motor builders who are structured to sell massive numbers of motors will fall to the limited market of niche brushed classes and far smaller numbers of motors they can sell. 
Oval will have very different needs than the other classes and will have to work out what they need and likely it will be very different than the other classes.
ROAR is stuck partly as they have to have classes that prepare racers for world level competition. So there rules have to follow that structure to a point. ARCOR and BRL are more able to adapt to specific needs and rules far quicker as they only have to work internally.


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## billjacobs (Jul 26, 2004)

*a rehash of points of arguments*

This debate about LIPO and brushless can be broken into 2 parts, what is best for the hobbyist, and what is best for the r/c industry. In this and most other cases, what is best is completely different depending on what side of the fence you are on.

About a year ago, when the battery matchers were first on the defensive about LIPO, Danny at SMC was saying how LIPO would be just like NIMH. That SMC would match lipo cells into a pack and that racers would have to buy new LIPO packs frequently.

Instead of matching LIPO's, SMC found a supplier to make a 5000 22c lipo pack and is simply distributing it. I think that if the LIPO packs from SMC, Orion, etc, are going to be a similar price anyway, it doesn't make any sense to allow whichever lipo you want, because that will result in the LIPO of the month. Mandate a specific pack and stick to it. Of course that will kill the battery matchers.

The R/C hobby has only itself to blame for the situation it is in with NIMH batteries. 2000 NiCD packs could be discharged to 0, abused beyond belief and still work fine. As NIMH batteries have grown in capacity and voltage, they have gotten more and more fragile. How in the world can you have batteries that are dead out of the box? Obviously the cells were good when they were matched. The self discharge rates and the inability of the newest NIMH batteries to survive below .9v a cell makes them no better than LIPO in terms of discharge warnings. 

LIPO itself is better for the hobbyist than NIMH in every way. I have been using Orion 3200 Lipo's for about 9 months (was using the 4800 Platinum before that- which I sold since it wouldn't fit into a stick pack space,) and the batteries are performing very close to their original output. I paid $80 for the 3200 pack. I want to see any NIMH pack that is 9 months old and has 60 cycles on it to even be good for practice. To those that say that LIPO is dangerous, I have yet to see 1 Orion LIPO ever flame up. I have personally seen 5 NIMH cells blow like a firecracker in the last 3 months.

The motor debate is similar in some ways to LIPO vs NIMH, but different in others. Most motor tuners do similar things to mass produced raw motors. Tuning motors involves changing the brushes and springs, truing the comm, and making sure everything is lined up correctly. The motor tuners use time to correct the imperfections in mass produced motors, and change user replacable components to optimize performance. Still, the issue is why r/c racers are using brushed motors, when no one denies that brushless is better in every way: consistency, performance, longevity, etc. The knock on brushless is the cost. OK -> a brushless motor costs $80, where a brushed stock motor is $27 (mail order for both.) A brushless motor doesn't need new brushes, new springs, doesn't have bushings that wear, and doesn't get internally dirty, plus sintered magnets have a long life. To maintain top performance, a brushed motor must be cut, and the brushes replaced every 3 runs. Top racers replace brushes and true comms after every run. Let's assume that the average competitive racer cuts the comm and replaces the brushes 1 time per race day. That is $5 for motor upkeep each race day. After a month, the $27 brushed motor is now $47, after 3 months, the motors have the same cost. Unfortunately, after the same 3 months, the brushed motor can't be trued anymore and it's magnets have faded, so it gets tossed. How is brushless more expensive? I suggest mandating a specific brushless motor and sticking to it.

My ultimate point is that r/c should do what is best for the hobby, and frankly helping some racers get an edge while losing many more racers is only killing the hobby. To all of the electrical engineers out there, how will a super brushed speed controller make you faster? At full throttle, the perfect speed controller will simply act as a wire between the battery and motor. Controllers add resistance because their fets transfer the power between the battery and motor. The resistance in modern speed controllers is very, very low. What actual difference will dropping it another .1% make to the club racer? The newest R/C car electronics including LIPO and brushless are at a closed system state. The racer cannot tinker with LIPO and they cannot tinker with brushless motors. If everyone is so afraid of a super speed controller, think about it this way -> the driver with the super speed controller can probably beat 99.9% of racers without it. 

To equalize racing, mandate batteries, mandate motor and speed controllers and be done with it.

We are trying to start a new spec racing league in the maryland, pa, va, dc area based on MARCar spec rules (we started an organization.) But we are going further and mandating tires also. After LIPO and brushless, the only thing left are the cost of the tires and the 3 run wonder tires. It will mandate the following:
1) tamiya black can motor (cheap, tinker proof and very close in performance between motors)
2) restricted gearing ratios (spur, pinion, and internal ratio)
3) any 4wd chassis allowed, but must stick to restricted gearing
4) minimum weight based on a stock tamiya ta05 with standard electronics and 4200 cells (with a 1-2 ounce lower weight limit for LIPO because LIPO is slower than nimh when weighed down to the same weight)
5) spec tire
6) only tamiya and HPI bodies allowed (and only realistic 4wd sedan bodies, no airfoils disguised as bodies.)

The idea is to promote cost effective, competitive, and fun racing. The switch to turn any 4wd chassis into a spec chassis will cost $70 ($20-motor + $30-tires + $20-body) at the most, and most racers already have at least one of these parts.


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## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

billjacobs for PRESIDENT~

That is a perfect statement Bill!!!


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## 420 Tech R/C (Sep 15, 2006)

Very well put Bill!!!! what is really disturbing to me is that the larger sanctioning bodies are letting this debate stay within the race community and not helping keep control of the situation.


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## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

INFO on the 3200 Batteries.

It's known now by most that ORION is releasing a NEW LIPO battery that will be another encased pack. The NEW 3600 should be hitting the market soon.

At this time, I personally feel we need to 'stay the course' with the 3200 ONLY pack and that there is no need for the NEW pack. Run time, Voltage, Product availability, issues are not a problem so there is no need to change directions at this time.

Here is a copy of the email I received from Cliff Black at Team Orion inquiring about the life of the 3200 battery now that there is a NEW battery on the market.

*Hello Joe,


No worries, we are going to continue to produce the 3200 and the 4800 for at least another year and most likely beyond as they are unique in case shape as the 3600 is a slightly different shaped case and is slightly larger. As if right now we have no plans to discontinue either battery at any time.


The only changes that may occur is the 4800 may increase in C rating.


Thank You,


Cliff C. Black - Creative Director
Team Orion / Avionics 
*


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## billjacobs (Jul 26, 2004)

*sanctioning bodies*

The sanctioning bodies (ROAR, etc,) cater to the manufacturers because the manufacturers are the ones that support the ROAR, etc races with advertising fees, door prizes, etc. You can't expect ROAR to cut off its own feet. Regardless, the sanctioning bodies rules are only in place at some national level events. The rest of the time, clubs follow roar rules because it is easier and less time consuming, and frankly less of a headache than creating their own rules. (And when the sponsored hot shoe drivers who have an interest in keeping the current rules in place want roar rules.) 

Also remember that NIMH is not just the batteries themselves, which you must continue to buy to stay competitive. What about discharge trays, warming trays, matchers, expensive chargers, single cell charging, etc. I purchased a $50 FMA Scorpian balancing LIPO charger that will outcharge virtually any charger made for LIPO. 

As for brushless, what about the brushes, springs, comm lathes, motor spray, motor tools, brush shapers, etc. If ROAR went to LIPO and brushless, it would put local r/c companies out of business, and would severly hurt the profitability of whichever r/c companies that cater to nimh and brushed motors are left. As it stands, every racer who has been racing for a while probably has $500 and up in obsolete equipment with no value if LIPO and brushless take over.

Hell, roar wanted to go to 4-cell in an effort to cater to the mod drivers who were blowing up their speed controllers in an effort to get their cars to lift off. The rational given was that current stock battery and motor technology are just too fast, forcing newbie's out of the sport, causing cars to break and tires to wear. I have a suggestion, lets go to lipo and novak 17.5. That way, your car will be 8 ounces lighter, reducing tire and parts wear, and will still have comparable speed, without all of the expenses associated with NIMH and brushed motors.

There is now either a class action lawsuit or a recall against IB for their junk 4200 cells that fail new out of the package. What I can't believe is that racers buy packs for $60 (when lipo is $80,) and then don't raise hell when some cells are either dead out of the box, or the pack dies within 10 or so runs. How is this acceptable? If your cell phone charged up 10 times and then died, their would be a riot at the sprint store.

The sad fact is that electric on-road racing (touring anyway) is dying all over the country and permanent tracks are dropping like flies, and the only thing we hear from the industry is more of the same. Unfortunately, the r/c hobby cannot support 100 motor tuners and battery matchers, and frankly, that part of the hobby is obsolete. ROAR has 2 paths they can take, embrace technology that helps the hobbyist and grow racing, or stifle the technology, keep embracing the current status quo and watch as they (ROAR) become less relevant.


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## AJS (Mar 21, 2002)

I second, billjacobs for president!!!!!!!!!


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## 420 Tech R/C (Sep 15, 2006)

Bill you got my vote on the 17.5/ lipo stock touring issue!!!!


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## trailranger (Feb 9, 2006)

I honestly feel that having only one supplier for brushless motors and esc's is a bad idea. I feel the community of r/c manufactures should get together to set standards and goals for brushless: Spec, stock, mod, pro-mod classes.

If Compact Disk and Video Cassette can be the result of collaboration of standards and goals, why not make apply this to the Brushless market? Keep the standards simple: size, sensor configuration and harness type, rebuildable, winding style and count, rotor type and size and most important POWER rating.

I feel POWER ratings should be how the brushless classes should be setup. These numbers are just to illustrate an example..
SPEC 100W
STOCK 150W (13.5)
PRO-STOCK 150W+ (Same motor, but with upgrades like larger rotors)
MOD 200W(10.5)
PRO-MOD 200W+


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## Hick (May 22, 2007)

I have read this thread with a great deal of interest. Though I agree with the spirit and intent of which these post are written. I strongly disagree with having one manufacturer as being the "it" when it comes to motors, ESC and batteries.

I have been waiting for someone to stand up and make a decision of what motor/ESC/battery is going to be the "it", for stock, super stock.... modified is open! 

I have an idea, but there is nothing I can "stick a fork in". If I read (as an example) the ARCOR, BRL, ROAR, Track Rules they are similar with some suttle differences.

I have been very fortunate in life to have retired early. Wifey wants to go visit her relatives up and down the Eastern Seaboard, some of whom I never met and she hasn't seen for 30 years! For some reason I would prefer to race... but with all these unresolved issues, I don't know what to pack!

There are many (for lack of better words) "up-start" sanctioning bodies that have their own rules (not to mention what the tracks allow), just adding to my confusion. With these "inconsistancies" I just want to stay home!

In my humble opinion ROAR is already "irrevalent" as are some of the sanctioning bodies. I believe there is away to "fix" these issues... ROAR is dragging its feet or won't. So it has to be up to US.

Start a forum where only the spokesman for the Sanctioning Bodies/Track Owners can talk. Have someone compile the rules, finalize them and then be done with it! Though it will be rough getting everybody to agree, once "united" and these confusing issues will take care of themselves, so to speak! 

All this fussing, wonderfully good points, are mute until someone takes the bull by the horns and get everybody on the same page.


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## billjacobs (Jul 26, 2004)

*many suppliers*

In terms of suppliers, right now in stock there is basically 1 supplier: co27 with many tuners doing basically the same thing. The problem with having many suppliers is that you start the motor or battery of the month. Having power ratings is great, but only using 1 motor brand and type is even better. If you want many suppliers because you want competition and lower prices, how has that been working out lately? Even though you have many matchers and tuners, prices have remained the same for years. If you want competition to make the cars go faster, you have to decide if you want faster cars, or equal racing. You can't have both unless you are willing to throw a lot of money into new equipment frequently.

The problem with 2 motors that have the same wattage is that 1 can have higher rpm and slightly lower torque, while the other is the opposite. You can equalize the 2 with gearing, but in a fixed gearing or limited gearing situation, the motor wars will begin. By having motors from the same manufacturer, like we do now in stock, and batteries from the same manufacturer, like we did until 6 or so months ago with IB, you had what I am advocating, but you also gave profits to matchers and tuners. LIPO and brushless takes the matchers and tuners out of the equation as they operate now. Is the best way to allow competition to have 5 13.5 motors from 5 manufacturers, all trying to one up each other? That helps them but kills the hobby, especially at $80 a motor.

R/C should be going to cost-controlled racing to bring in newbies, not applying the same formulas of splitting the pie 100 ways. I'm not against competition in r/c manufacturing, and I'm not against the matchers and tuners. We just have new technology that is better for the hobbyists, the hobby, and better for my wallet, and unfortunately, matchers and tuners don't fit in, as they operate now.

If someone can show me how having many motor and battery suppliers helps anyone other than the suppliers and the racers they sponsor, please point it out to me. All I see in this hobby is a lot of "guys" (and some ladies) spending a lot of money chasing those who will do and buy anything for an edge. The cycle is vicious and never ending. How will spending half of what you spend now on a hobby going to hurt you? Unless of course you are the r/c supplier that will be left out.


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## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

I do find it funny to read when people are against the idea of ONE Mfg. for Motors and Batteries, yet for MOST of the 22+ years I've raced...99% of the motors and batteries I've run came through the hands of TRINITY.

They had exclusive distribution on the SANYO batteries we used for YEARS, they had 99% of the market cornered on Motors...and while I can't say NOBODY complained...(because they did) it didn't slow things down at all.

NOVAK had one of THE FIRST ESC's I know of (My first one was a NOVAK 4 which I still have..and bought in I believe 1988 or 1989) and for many years they too pretty much WERE the only ESC I'd see at a track. I did also have one of the very early TEKINs (seems like it was called a 300 or something..it was PINK and I still have THAT one too) 

...something that too often gets lost is RACING. I'm a supporter of RACING, not of the COMMERCE of Racing. A group of racers WILL create a MARKET..and wise business people find a way to capitalize on that market.

When that market changes..those 'smart business types' adapt to the NEW market...others disappear.

My goal with R/C Racing is to create a FAIR and EQUAL playing field...then from that the RACERS can find their 'gray areas', they can hone their 'driving skills' and from within the rules they can RACE and put on entertaining racing the hopefully others will see and/or hear about..and want to JOIN in the FUN.


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## McLin (Dec 5, 2001)

Bill, I was in favor of the weight thing at first too but it was suggested to me (and it made since) to leave the weight the same. Yes it would mean adding a lot more lead but the lighter we make the chassis, the harder it will be for a new guy to tune it because less weight will be transferring. It may be able to be dropped some to get a little benefit from the LiPo deal but dropping all of it would be a mistake in my opinion.

Motors vs. Classes has been pretty much worked out between what ARCOR did and what Joe did as well with his series. The good thing about running the LiPo’s is for the first time in the 20 + years that I have been doing this stuff, we are now able to create classes by the “motor” and not the battery.

A simple selection of classes could be: (these class names are just names that we are familiar with. The actual names are not important.)

SPEC 4 Cell Spec battery 21.5 Brushless

STOCK 3200 LiPo 21.5 Brushless (easy move up from Spec to Stock)

Limited Mod – 3200 LiPo 17.5 Brushless (about the same as 4 cell 19 turn) and/or the 10.5 brushless (about the same as a 4 cell and 8 turn).

Open Mod 4800 LiPo / any brushless motor

All batteries (except Spec) Orion 3200 (4800 for open mod)



3200 vs. 3600



I think we may have to change the way we look at batteries. If any of the classes below open mod can’t “dump” a 3200 LiPo pack below what is safe for a LiPo, why do we need a 3600? We can’t look at run time in the same way as we do NiMH.

Bottom line; Only allow Orion batteries, Novak Motors and Speed Controls. As I said before, let them sell all they want to sell to Off Road, TC’s and the rest.

Of course all of this is about pan car oval racing.


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## 420 Tech R/C (Sep 15, 2006)

Trail ranger has one very good point, by only using 1 specific manufacturer you give that company a monopoly on the market.It will only be a matter of time before the bean counters in that company realize that once the other manufacturers go down in flames they can DEMAND what ever price they want out of their gear.I have seen it before in the mid 80's when novak had the only esc on the market. I remember giving over 200.00 for the first esc I ever owned. I wasnt happy about it, but You couldnt compete with esc equiped cars when you were still running a resistor based speed control.novak pretty much had the whole market by the short hairs for 2-3 years. then Tekin came into the picture and race grade speedos became MUCH more affordable.because there was competition in the market.


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## McLin (Dec 5, 2001)

One more point about more than one manufacturer. If we have (for simplicity) two manufacturers, one will have to build their product better than the other to stay in business. Once that is done, the other company will have to up their anty to keep up. And on and on and on. If they both are forced to stay exactly the same….then why do it?


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## kevinm (Jan 16, 2002)

swtour said:


> billjacobs for PRESIDENT~
> 
> That is a perfect statement Bill!!!


Are you talking ROAR president, or replacing George? (I'd probably agree to either  )

But seriously, I raced brushless/LiPo Touring Car all summer long, and it is definitely waaaay better/cheaper (long run) than NiMh/Brushed for "Joe Average" racer (or even Joe Above-average). Most of the other Joe Averages at our local tracks have reached the same conclusion. My 18th scale LiPos are still running strong after a year of racing. As for the demise of the motor tuners/battery matchers/lathe builders: Automobiles were bad for the horse-and-buggy industry, but civilization survived (I think).

There have always been sponsored drivers who had slightly better stuff, but it seems like lately all discussions of national/world rules are dominated by sponsored drivers who don't pay for much of anything and want to keep LiPo out of the picture (although they apparently decided brushless was OK as soon as they found they couldn't make runtime with brushed on 5 cells). I agree will Bill that rules need to be made for the masses, not for/by the top of the heap.

I don't really agree with the one brand concept. I think you need at least 2 so they can keep each other honest. Until Novak jumped into it, the only 1/10th scale brushless systems cost over $400. And what if an earthquake/flood/fire hits the only approved brand's plant? As long as the construction of the motor is VERY CLEARLY defined, let anyone build the motor. I think ROAR's current set of rules for brushless Mod motors is too open-ended. The rotor can be anywhere between 12.5 and 15mm in diameter. With apologies to LRP, Castle, Orion, etc., Novak was the one that got brushless into the mainstream, so measure their motor and write the rules to match it within whatever manufacturing tolerances are. (I think LRP's do.) I'm not worried that some other company will find a way to build an exact Novak clone and make it 10% better, but if they can R&D 16 different combinations of rotor size/length/construction (i.e. brushed stock armatures) then it won't be much of an improvement over brushed days.

I also just noticed (unless I missed it) that the ROAR rulebook doesn't seem to have ANY rules about speed controls. Seems like there ought to be a rule somewhere stating that the ESC cannot boost voltage above what the battery produces. (Is this what the mysterious $5000 speed controls were doing?)


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## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

One of the things that JB did w/ ARCOR was to focus on RC Oval Racing...but in creating a market for the 17.5 motor and the 3200 LIPO I've been pushing these items across the lines to several groups of Touring Car on-road racers as well.

A) This is an awesome combination...so I want others to try it

B) By creating a larger market for these items...it will help their sales..and in turn will also help create a USED market for those racers who like to buy USED equipment.

...there are other reasons as well...but I think those 2 are good starters.

Going back to the ONE MFG deal... I approached several MFG's over the last 2 years...the common response I get/got when asking about making somethng specific for OVAL racers was "OVAL RACING IS TOO SMALL OF A MARKET" and they showed NO interest.

I am now supporting those who DID show interest..and too initiative for OUR kind of racing


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## trailranger (Feb 9, 2006)

IMHO

I know that there is some what-if questions if using wattage based rating system.
First, for any racing class, SPEC, STOCK, PRO-STOCK, Limited MOD, OPEN MOD a series of rules and guidelines would have to be agreed upon by manufactures. What's Up is more than the wattage; each class will have more inclusive rules that will help keep the playing field equal.

These rules could be physical or performance measures: 

Performance measures could be an absolute maximum wattage produced and max RPM at a certain physical timing. Inductance!

Physical rules, can be case size, rotor size and type, standardize bearings, winding counts, winding styles, air gaps, wiring harness style and wire order, sensor position, rebuild able design. The end result should be every motor the same but the label. 

Once said and done, NOVAK should still be the top dog of the Brushless racing. They by far have had the best customer service I have ever used in and out of the R/C hobby. I am a proud owner of Six Novak ESC's. Three of my ESC's are brushless (GTB, XBR, 4-CELL DSM GTB) and I have six Novak brushless motors to go racing with. I enjoy using Novak products for my reasons, but I still believe in a free market with open competition.

Yes there are some archaic racing organizations that in all purposes should be ignored. Why ignore such sanctioning bodies, they failed the racers in keeping up with technology and the interest of racers. Properly introducing the new technologies such as LiPo and Brushless could have lead to manufactures already having standardized rules to follow. Having standardized rules would have prevented confusion and distress from racers who were early to adopt or still riding the fence waiting.


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## billjacobs (Jul 26, 2004)

*$5000 speed controller*

The first speed controller I had was a novak t1 (I think, it was 18 years ago). I got it used for $40 or $50. If the first electronic speed controllers were $200, the current brushless controllers are also $200. I know with inflation the original $200 is much higher, but the cost of r/c electronics really hasn't changed that much. (Motors were and are $30, matched batteries were and are $40, etc.)

A speed controller doesn't increase voltage, I suppose it could, but the electronics to do that and still pump out 60 amps of power would require more than a 1 inch square size. Generally voltage doublers can only supply a fraction of the original current. A one of a kind speed controller would use higher grade fets to reduce the resistance down to almost 0. Fets come in many grades and also many prices. Ultimately, the higher the price for the same power handling capability, the lower the resistance, the higher the speed, and the smoother the power delivered to the motor.

I currently use LRP sphere competition speed controllers. The only reason I chose the sphere is because going from brushed to brushless on a gtb is a nightmare. You have to join all 3 motor wires to the - and run an extra battery wire for the +. On the sphere you simply combine the yellow and blue wires to the - and run the red motor wire to the + of the motor.

So I am not for only having 1 speed controller. The problem is that each esc company also wants to have its own brushless motors, and that's how the motor of the month starts. If you mandate the exact wire thickness, exact sintered magnet strength and size, exact timing, etc, you would really have the exact same motor made by 2 companies. If that happened, I can guarantee you that 1 company would make the motor, and the other company would slap their label on it. As for speed controllers, if you can mandate a specific motor, it really wouldn't matter how many speed controller companies you had, because they would all drive the same motor in the same way. Racers can say whatever they want about speed controllers, but I would like to know if there is really a "performance" difference between high end controllers except for case size, shape, and weight. I race against a couple of the original novak cyclones who are just as fact as the gtx, lrp qc2, tekin, etc. The cyclone is a little bigger however.

This same argument of having many suppliers can be made about current touring car chassis. With a couple of exceptions, they are all the same car (original 2003 tamiya 415 design.) Companies sponsor drivers who win, then many racers buy the "car" of the month. Do you really think that the current world champ couldn't win with any of the 10 cars that have the same design? Racers switch from car to car in the search of the edge. Some racers make a circle going from car to car back to their original car. Many times, having too many choices is not a good thing.

I think the most important thing for racers to think about is who disseminates the information they take as gospel and what their rational is for their position.


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## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

> Physical rules, can be case size, rotor size and type, standardize bearings, winding counts, winding styles, air gaps, wiring harness style and wire order, sensor position, rebuild able design. The end result should be every motor the same but the label.


Hey I made that arguement YEARS ago for both STOCK rebuildable and MODIFIED motors.

My point with it was 

IF YOU create a set of 'standards' it shouldn't matter WHO's product you use if it fits the 'standards' set forth by those rules.

In that case it wouldn't matter WHO's armature, can, endbell you put together to make your motor.

It would allow a motor winder to buy BLANKS in bulk and use what ever CAN was popular at the time.

As a NON Motor builder, but a guy who has raced MODIFIED for almost 18 years...I have a collection of ARMS and CANS and ENDBELLS all thrown in a box.

ALL of these components can be bolted together and make a working motor...yet if I put the wrong endbell or arm in the can...that motor is considered a HYBRID motor..and ILLEGAL

MOST of them...I have NO clue which goes with WHICH. Some are abvious...because of matching colors. If they were allowed to be used because they ALL meet specs...I probably have enough stuff build 45-50 of this type of motor....maybe more.


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## kevinm (Jan 16, 2002)

I used to think a practical voltage booster was impossible. But then I saw A123 selling them with their batteries. Theirs are fairly large and somewhat power limited, but who knows what's possible if cost is of no concern? I'm not sure what type of race it was that had the incident that started this thread, but even 0.5 of a volt could make a huge difference in an oval race.

I am puzzled by the several posts saying that the biggest problem with prototype stuff is in modified touring car. Several of us ran mod touring all summer long, and nobody ever complained about not having enough speed. The combination of brushless and LiPo made driving & handling much more important than a couple extra watts reaching the wheels. Maybe with the top dogs at the BIG EVENT races it might mean a little, but a hardware advantage means much more in limited motor/battery classes. Guess that's why I prefer Mod.


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## billjacobs (Jul 26, 2004)

*dropping class weight requirements*

I race touring cars half seriously and minis for fun, and I use Orion 3200 LIPO's exclusively. If you use LIPO's in most touring cars, it is a royal PAIN to add 6.5 ounces of weight to a chassis (8 ounces if you use brushless), on the battery side to balance the car. Most don't realize how much weight 6.5 ounces is until you feel it in your hand. I use tungsten which I got cheap from ebay. If I had to use lead, I would use almost twice the amount in volume. 

If the weight limits were reduced, all of the brands (Associated, Corally, Xray, Tamiya, HPI, etc.) would immediately re-design cars with the batteries and motors down the middle (like the Losi JRXS,) because every competitive racer would switch to lipo. When both are at minimum roar weight, the NIMH car has the advantage, when weight limits are removed, the LIPO car has the advantage. Most current chassis designs are made to balance the battery against the motor and electronics, so by using the Tamiya 415 layout (from 2003) that is used in almost all touring cars, I have to add about 6.5 ounces around the battery.

BUT, instead of trying to weigh down the car, I bought a Losi JRXS-R. I now have a car that is 6 ounces under weight, has less tire wear, carries less momentum in a crash and thus breaks less, and accelerates faster.

This is what LIPO's and brushless should be in touring cars when you use the advantages that both offer. I know that if the weight rules are changed all of the current touring cars will be obsolete for the competitive racers, but it will help the newbies buying their first car, because they can enjoy the benefits of LIPO, and it will help someone with little money because the used market will be flooded with cars.

I checked out the hypersonic turbo boost from a123. I think that what it probably does is to use 2 voltage control devices and then put their outputs into series. The biggest problem with this is that you use a lot of current to increase the voltage. A 7.4v lipo pack puts out about 7.2-7.3 volts under load. The native voltage of the a123 pack is 6.6v. So to actually use the pack against a 7.2v nimh or a 7.4lipo, you must use the voltage booster.


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## FishRC (Sep 28, 2001)

The thing here is, someone will always look to build the next best or tweak this or that to get just that little more. Also someone will always have a bigger pocketbook than you do and be willing to spend it for that .0001 improvement. So even with a one manufacture system you would still see the haves and the have-nots. It just is a fact of racing. If this was not the case we all still would be running Tamiya cars with Sanyo 1200sc cells.

The other thing is if you do go to a single source, who would support the other things we count on. Who would sponsor drivers, by space in the Mags, sponsor races and the other benefits we see. Who do you pick to survive in business and then tell all the other producers, " Sorry, might as well close your doors." I'm sure Trinity would happily exit the market since they don't produce the top LiPo or brushless system because the cash cow products won't sell any more.

This is not to say the move to LiPo and brushless is a smooth one. Those that don't adapt to this market change will suffer, but that is the business side of things.


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## billjacobs (Jul 26, 2004)

*fishrc*

This is precisely why you mandate a specific motor and battery. It takes wallet racing out of the mix.

The beauty of brushless and lipo is that they are virtually the same from one to the other and they require no maintenance, so they will stay virtually the same. This is cost controlled racing at its best.

Who will support the sponsored drivers? This is one of the biggest problems in r/c. You have talented drivers who have the best things, pay very little for them, and then by virtue of win of sunday, sell on monday drive the entire one-up mentality of r/c. If the consensus of many in r/c is that the cars are too fast for the newbie (which they are for a 27t stock class,) how does continuously making the cars faster help anybody.

Does anybody really think that racing r/c cars should cost $60 + a day? (Tires for $35, brushes, and battery and motor wear, plus parts.) Of course someone will always have more money than you, but r/c is primarily a working man's hobby. Millionaires don't usually race r/c cars.

As for the magazines, when is the last time anyone learned something new from rc car action, rc driver, etc? I like to look at r/c car action, but my information comes from fellow racers on these internet forums. Besides, most advertising in the magazines is from the large manufacturers and focuses on new chassis, not small matchers and motor tuners.

I agree 100% with a prior point. Trinity ruled r/c for more than a decade with really the only stock motors and batteries anybody bought. How is this any different?

In terms of this is the business side of things, who is the consumer, and who controls what the consumer wants? As it stands now, the manufacturers do, and that should change.


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## DJ1978 (Sep 26, 2001)

*Very Interesting conversation*

As a track operator, I find this conversation very interesting. I know you are focusing on an Oval racing scenario. But it applies to all racing. 
I run a LARGE indoor dirt track during the winter. We averaged over 200 entries a race last season. 
At the start of every season we have the same "Issues" come up. What is legal, what will be allowed. What are the specs of the class.
I have thought long and hard on it... especially for this season that has seen the explosion of Brushless motors and Lipos available. There are so many to choose from.. and everyone saying this one is equal to a brushed this or that.
What I have decided for this season, Brushed with 6 cells Nicad or Nimh is stock.. If you want to run brushless and or Lipos you run in the open classes. I don't even have a MOD class any more. They are all open classes. Run what you brung. I don't care how many cells, what motors, the class is open. Come and race. Like was mentioned in an earlier post... The fast guys will usually with with what every they are driving. Case in point, We had a top driver in our area show up with a $50 used Duratrax Evader one race day. Ran it in stock truck and TQ'ed and won the A Main against some of the best drivers in Michigan. 
This will continue to be a point of controversy in all classes until this rush of technology starts to plane out some an we step back and go...OK this is what we have... now what are we going to do with it. 
Look at the Novak systems... 10.5 they claimed close to stock... but it wasn't then the 13.5.. this one is more like stock... and now 17.5? 21.5? Am I supposed to run a class for each of these motors? I might have to in the future... but for now.. 
Stock is the traditional stock... Open is for the new technology.


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## LARCGuy (Apr 18, 2004)

DJ1978 said:


> What I have decided for this season, Brushed with 6 cells Nicad or Nimh is stock.. If you want to run brushless and or Lipos you run in the open classes. I don't even have a MOD class any more. They are all open classes. Run what you brung. I don't care how many cells, what motors, the class is open. Come and race.


Wow, that would instantly kill all racing at my local tracks.


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## brian0525 (Jan 17, 2005)

LARCGuy said:


> Wow, that would instantly kill all racing at my local tracks.


Yeah, Really doesn't apply to oval other than dirt oval.


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## badassrevo (May 8, 2006)

We run the following classes:
Novice - any RTR or stock class vehicle
stock - any stock motor to include the 13.5 any battery to include up to 5000mah lipo
mod - any battery any motor

Novice
stock truck
mod truck
mod 2wd
mod 4wd

Most every one is running brushless and lipo, there are still some hold outs on the both but the racing is very competitive and there is no real advantage to either.


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## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

> Run what you brung. I don't care how many cells, what motors, the class is open. Come and race..


For local club racing...I think that is great. If enough guys show up wanting to run the same thing..then worry about what classes, etc.

We kind of did the same thing for our first club race last weekend...and it was kind of a HOOT. The + side was that everybody who showed up..just wanted to race. Everyone pretty much worked together on making the cars as close to the same speed as possible so we could race each other ON THE TRACK.

This was a parking lot/paved oval. We had Touring Cars running 6 cell w/ a 19t motor, one with a LIPO/10.5..we had 2 oval pan cars running LIPO w/ the 17.5 B/L motors, 2 running 10.5/4 cell and one running 4 cell STOCK. Of course the STOCK car was about 1/2 second a lap slow, but he was having fun, wasn't in the way and he was shaking down a NEW car for another upcoming event...

We also had our NASTRUCK class...which all ran 10.5/4 cell or 19t/4 cell.

We all were talking and laughing...on the drivers stand... we picked our little battles, and made a FUN race out of it...that's what LOCAL CLUB Racing should be!~


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## gezer2u (Sep 25, 2001)

420 Tech R/C said:


> Trail ranger has one very good point, by only using 1 specific manufacturer you give that company a monopoly on the market.It will only be a matter of time before the bean counters in that company realize that once the other manufacturers go down in flames they can DEMAND what ever price they want out of their gear.


If a manufacturer has a product that is or is perceived to be better, they can charge all most what they want and racers will pay it. But if you require one motor and battery, you only have to buy what's new when the 1 manufacturer comes out with a new product. IF it is allowed. But with allowing any manufacturer, you _must_ buy a new, faster product from ALL manufacturers since it is allowed. That, drives the cost up considerably. Basically, that is where we have been for decades.

I like the one motor, but not the one speedo. I see how the speedo thing will get out of hand and have to be controlled. We race a LRP speedo, but if it is mandated for a Novak, that is what we will buy. We will run the LRP in Sedans, because they are content to allow any brand of BL motor and Lipo battery. Wait until that gets going, you will see sedans shrink even more. 

Lipo and brushless has meant that we think in a completely different way. We need to think in a different way when it come to the rest of RC racing.


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## McLin (Dec 5, 2001)

VERY well put.


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## 420 Tech R/C (Sep 15, 2006)

People commonly forget that some people are brand specific, and will NOT run where their brand is not welcome. for example ; many people own and PREFER the new mamba max system opposed to the novak systems. I have personally seen people drop frrom a race series that they have run for DECADES to go run another series because they allow the use of their brushless system of choice. there fore turnout drops, interest drops, and the series dies.Sorry I dont care for novak. I ran tekin stuff that was old as dirt and did well with it when they werent even producing stuff for quite a while. That is my personal prefference, I dont care for the mamba system, so I run a traxxass system and love it, and I sure am not going to go dump 250.00 top go run 1 race circuit when every other place i run has no such rules.


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## ScottH (Nov 24, 2005)

I have a question.

If onle ONE manufacturer is allowed to make widgets, what is to keep them from charging whatever they want for the widget? Is there some sort of cost cap in the rules for BL racing?

I have seen the one manufacturer discussion hashed out but no clear answers. I do see why from a tech standpoint but just do not think this is the healthiest thing for the sport.

But hey what do I know, I race Nitro.


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## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

....if as many people actually raced...as there are those who are opposed to RULES...we'd have some awesome turnouts at events.

I've personally been involved in rules ALLOWING multiple products...RACERS Bitched about it... I've been involved with NOT ALLOWING multiple products...RACERS Bitched about it... There is NO winning with EVERYONE.

We controlled HOW LONG a battery was to be exclusive, we've dropped that and legalized batteries "BEFORE" they were made...speculating they WOULD be available...

We tried a ONE MOTOR deal, we've tried the "HANDWOUND 19t Deal", we've tried Break Out Racing, We've tried CLAIM RULES. NON of which made everyone happy.

I can tell you one thing. Those who are actually DOING the LIPO/BRUSHLESS racing..and NOT Sitting on the sidelines BITCHING...are having a BLAST. MORE FUN than most of them have had for a LONG TIME due to Not having to babysit crappy batteries, not having to rebuild their motor and dyno it or break it in after EVERY freakin run...etc.

IF YOU DON'T WANT TO RUN by the ONE MOTOR rule - GO FISHING! All others...SEE you at the Races~

<-- finding this debate over ONE brand of motor growing tiresome~

(SIDENOTE) How many legal motors are there in QSAC 1/4 scale racing? Or in NITRO Racing? (I have no idea...I don't run NITRO..and don't care)


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## ScottH (Nov 24, 2005)

Sorry if I P'ed you off SWT. I was only inquiring. Seeing as I spent ALL of my R/C racing, before getting out of it for about 7 years, running electric I can relate.

I was around when the whole 19t craze started. It was just what I needed, I could not get a handle on the open mod stuff except at a few tracks, so that made it easy to pick a motor. Come to think of it, only one motor was allowed in that series. It was Timmerman of EastCoast that supplied the motors and soon the local tracks around here adopted those rules.

Now what happened after I got out I have no idea, did not keep up with it. But I have been looking/lurking. I really enjoyed the electric racing. Tinkering with the motors, to me at least, was a blast. The whole battery changing by the week deal is not for me however.

From a "tinkering" standpoint, I do not like the BL motors. But overall, I think it is a much better avenue to go down. I can also see the reason for limiting one manufacturer, on paper, but like I said what is to keep them honest (pricing wise)?

As far as the BL/Lipo deal, now that is something I may just sink my teeth into. I love racing on the fuzz and running a Nitro on the carpet is just "right-out".

I do appluad those of you in the trenches fighting for some sort of uniformity, believe it or not you do have my respect.

Again, sorry if I offended you, that was not my intent.


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## McLin (Dec 5, 2001)

Scott, you are not the only one that has brought the “price fixing” question up and it’s certainly a good one that would need to be addressed.

This is pertaining to Oval only:

Oval is the smallest of all the different factions of RC and although we could mandate one company they still have to provide their product to the rest of the RC world and they couldn’t charge more for Oval than say TC’s. And they couldn’t jack up their prices across the board just because they are mandated to Oval because they would price themselves out of the market.


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## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

ScottH,

My comments were not directed at you, I appologize if they sounded like they were...other than the nitro comment...and that wasn't intended to be negative...I just DON'T run nitro...so I know nothing about it.

My main point is...too many people just want to ARGUE. As stated in my statement..I've been involved in virturally EVERY type of possible change...and no matter what is tried...we have bitchers and complainers...and usually they are the ones who Don't show up no matter what you do..

...oh, and on the issue of PRICING, we've always addressed that in the past with MAX pricing built into rules. NORRCA and ROAR has/had it with STOCK NORRCA/ARCOR and I believe ROAR had it with 19t. No reason the same thing can't be adopted with the B/L motors IF it becomes a problem (which so far it hasn't)

IF a company is used exclusively, they are FOOLISH if THEY do something to KILL the market that is supporting THEM. So GOUGING the racers who are bound to use their product wouldn't make a lot of sense...because easily the RULES can be changed.


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## McLin (Dec 5, 2001)

As for the arguing, I think this thread has gone quite well so far LOL (But I get your point.)

Something else has impressed me; if you scan back through this thread you will see that it is a little different than when we first started talking about brushless and LiPo’s earlier. People have actually tried it, raced it and are talking positive about it. This is a good thing.

BUT I would like to suggest something. I think it’s time to stop all the talking. I think it’s time that someone “stepped up” and put some things on paper and let’s get on with it. Or, we could all walk away from this feeling all warm and fuzzy because we have put our thoughts down on the internet and have saved planet from destruction once again………….but nothing really was accomplished.

I honestly don’t think that one set of brushless/LiPo rules will work. I think that Oval is too specific to try to follow “generic” rules that covers all forms of racing.

I would be happy to volunteer to work on this with a group of others and hammer something out.


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## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

Lin,

Since this is in the "GENERAL" section instead of the OVAL section we've had a lot of views and several comments from NON oval racers.

I personally know a lot of TC guys who are looking for similar answers to similar questions that OVAL guys are...I don't know about the Off-Road Guys...I haven't been around them much for a few years.

I think the TC guys can fight their own battles, IF they have a group wanting a ONE MOTOR/ONE BATTERY rule, they can fight that battle...but they've already opened the door to other stuff..and as you know...once that door is opened...it's NOT easy to close it.

I think it may be one of the things causing the FALL in numbers in the TC ranks though... TOO many choices...TOO much variance...and just as much (if not MORE) arguing.

This has been a very good thread, the comments have not been like most of the others...there have been some awesome points brought forth and it has brought several guys that are fairly new to the "Giving their opinion" side of HobbyTalk.


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## McLin (Dec 5, 2001)

I understand that, that's why I said we need two sets of rules. I couldn't begin to work out LiPo rules for anything but Oval.


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## billjacobs (Jul 26, 2004)

*price fixing*

Having racers say that one manufacturer for the motor or battery would result in price fixing in r/c works in the real world in larger industries, but not so much in r/c, because r/c is a very small, very niche, inelastic market. In r/c supplier competition doesn't really bring prices down because the r/c suppliers price their product very close or even a little higher than their competition, and racers are willing to spend whatever it takes to gain an edge. As an example:

racing touring cars used to be $200, then $300, then $400. As each manufacturer raised the price of the kits, every other manufacturer followed suite with their new models. 

Why, because if the new standard is $400, why would a manufacturer price their car cheaper, they would sell just as many cars (because of the brand loyalists and those looking for an edge,) but they would make less money. Many prices in r/c are inelastic, meaning that a price change has very little impact on demand. Since r/c racers are looking for an edge, and as long as that edge isn't too expensive (relative to each racer, but probably a few thousand dollars at the max,) the manufacturers can keep increasing the prices slowly and no one cares (since they keep buying.) 

Further, when you have rules restricting certain products in r/c so that multiple manufacturers can build products based on those rules, what you get are products that follow the letter of the rules, but try to find any and all loopholes. Many times, the rules don't make much sense (bushings in stock motors?) Plus after a while, everyone uses the same thing anyway because the loopholes are found and exploited. (Trinity and epic are the masters of this in stock motors.) Batteries are a little different because there are fewer rules aside from capacity and size. The problem is the battery rules are changed as soon as new batteries come out. 

The whole point in mandating a motor, batteries and possibly a speedo is to level the playing field and make sure that each racer is the same at least in their electronics. This would stop the battery and motor of the month because it would not only make them the same, but it also make the device that connects them the same (speedo.)

Everyone in everything in life complains and bitches. If a racer prefers a certain battery, but they can't race with that battery, guess what, they will buy the battery that is allowed. For most racers, the desire to race supercedes their brand loyalty. Take the tamiya tcs races. Do racers complain that you have to use tamiya products? Do they still race? Many people who show up at the tamiya race only run tamiya products once a year, at the race. 

Technology moves on whether you have a monopoly or many competitors. If a specific supplier is chosen, they will release new products periodically because they want to sell more. If they never change their products, they will sell less and less to existing racers (since they will already own the items.)

Just like in real racing, each type of r/c racing (off-road, oval, on-road, nitro, etc.) should have its own rules. It would make sense for many of the rules to be similar so that a racer could race in different racing types with the same equipment.

I agree 100% with the statement that lipo and brushless should be dealt with in a completely different manner than brushed and nimh. Why -> because in brushed and nimh, everyone basically ran the same thing (same raw motors and cells.) The differences in them were brought out by tweaking and the inherent differences in the manufacturering process. In LIPO and brushless, the inherent differences are much smaller, and are based much more on the design specs and chemistry of the items.

There is a potential with brushless and lipo to be on an even steeper slope than with nimh and brushed, and many of the suggestions in this thread are ways to stop the slide.


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## Ralf (Oct 19, 2001)

Keep an eye on the number of entries at BRL races this year....


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## ScottH (Nov 24, 2005)

Is the BRL allowing LiPo?


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## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

No they are staying 4 cell.


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## McLin (Dec 5, 2001)

For the racers in the South East:



IF two classes of Brushless/LiPo were added to the RC-Oval Series for '08, would you be interested in racing it. 7 races starting in the Daytona Motor Speedway! Also, races at Easley, C&W, Fox Mountain and other tracks.


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## trailranger (Feb 9, 2006)

I heard a racer say this "If you are afraid of getting beat by brushless then now is the time to get a system" 

I'll let you think about it, but in reality brushless is an easy way for everyone to put more time driving than wrenching a motor. This blessing of speed available to everyone almost nullifies any edge in motor performance. I can see several positive things for brushless racing, the downside is cost and agreement between manufactures. I for one will run brushless, for me the cost is about the same as brushed racing but with less fuss.

The outlaws are going to be the brushed guys that can tune a motor to the track and still smoke the brushless guys. Brushed racing will never go away, and in some events will draw large crowds just to run brushed motors.


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## 420 Tech R/C (Sep 15, 2006)

once again well put Trailranger.This is a little off subject, but the tuning issue is why I am so set on finding a 'stock' brushless motor and having it dubbed that for general use.1 reason I have heard to not have a stock brushless motor is that it would make stock class racing too expensive. I dont really see how people figure that because in order to compete in a stock class at anything other than a club race you HAVE to own a comm lathe, a whole selection of springs and brushes to tune with, and at least a spare arm in case you hang a brush in a qualifier and torch the comm. so the way I see it the cost of the comm lathe covers about half the cost of a decent BL set-up.That said, I ran my 1/12 at a club race sunday in what was supposed to be a 'stock class'. there were 4 of us running, I was running a brushed stock because I hadnt had time to put my BL in my 1/12, 1 guy was running a BL 13.5, 1 guy was running a 19t because thats all he had with him, and the 4th guy was running a 19t after the first qualifier because he couldnt hang with the others. After 3 rounds of qualifiying I qualified 2nd right behind the BL 13.5.(not only was he fast , but he could drive) The point is that some people are so worried about going fast that they forget that they need to work on their driving. All the speed in the world cant help if you cant hold a line and drive it.


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## NastyButler (Dec 27, 2005)

McLin said:


> As for charging the LiPo’s: if there are IDIOTS out there that are charging LiPo’s at 10 amps after ALL of the talk and discussion that has gone on about that, I can’t say that I can feel sorry for the when one of them lights up. This is one time when someone needs to step in and educate them before they really do get hurt. That is flat STUPID and has nothing to do with finding an “edge”! Personally, if that persisted, I would eject them from the track before they hurt someone.[/size][/font]


You're the one who needs educating. There are many packs that can handle a 10amp charge.

No reason to use a 10 amp charge? Well how about the reason that you can use only one pack and charge between races?

It's like at a local club that have enforced a hardcased lipo only rule without realising that it is the type of cell and many other variable that pose a much bigger saftey risk.

I believe that we need a world wide governing body to test and verify every lipo pack on the market a certify each on as safe to use in an indoor racing enviroment. Even if the cells are the best on the market then the way the pack is assembled can be hazzardous.

Brushless is already taking over in our area of the uk with both 13.5 and 10.5 classes. All the sceptics have come around and I think brushed will be very rare by the end of the year. You may see complete begginers turn up with them to try until they know for sure that they want to keep coming back and they invest in brushless.

I got the novak supersport when it first came out and race that against 19t for a few years. I sold my lathe after the first weekend with it. I then got the gtb when they first came out and still use it most weekends to this day. The only thing I have had to replace is the rotor in the original 8.5 and all the motors still go like new. I think this puts brushless into perpective.

There will always be advances in motorsport, but think of brushless as a time and money saving device. No one ever said you would end up with using the same motor for the rest of your life.


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## pennyliner (Aug 26, 2005)

In the context of which this thread was started, McLin is correct. The 3200 Carbon pack has a max charge rate of 6.4 amps, anything over that and you get what you deserve. 
In fairness to you, you may be able to use a higher mah lipo where you race, perhaps even as high as 8000. This pack could probably tolerate a 10 charge rate, but check with the manufacture of the pack for specifics.
The big deal/push for the Orion 3200 is for control, stability, and inpact resistance in oval racing. I'm not sure what you run, but if you have ever seen a car smack the wall of a velodrome at 60+ mph, you would see where we are coming from. If you read this post from start to finish, you would know this, if you only read the last page then you missed the point.
Education is the key to success in everything we do, why should toy cars be different?

Brad


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## NastyButler (Dec 27, 2005)

pennyliner said:


> In the context of which this thread was started, McLin is correct. The 3200 Carbon pack has a max charge rate of 6.4 amps, anything over that and you get what you deserve.
> In fairness to you, you may be able to use a higher mah lipo where you race, perhaps even as high as 8000. This pack could probably tolerate a 10 charge rate, but check with the manufacture of the pack for specifics.
> The big deal/push for the Orion 3200 is for control, stability, and inpact resistance in oval racing. I'm not sure what you run, but if you have ever seen a car smack the wall of a velodrome at 60+ mph, you would see where we are coming from. If you read this post from start to finish, you would know this, if you only read the last page then you missed the point.
> Education is the key to success in everything we do, why should toy cars be different?
> ...


My reply was to the quote I used. Don't use the old 'you haven't read the whole thread, so you cannot comment' chestnut to dis my post.

Orion themselves have confirmed a 2c charge rate is safe on the their pack. I have never seen I fire or puffing on a 20c or above pack caused by 2c + charge rates. Do you all know that charging a 3200 at 10 amps causes a dangerous condition? Maybe it does but maybe it just reduces the capacity and runtime of the pack faster. But what suprises me is that people with limited knownledge of these things is so conviced that it's a mega dangerous thing to do.

I guess you lot do not know about the scorpion charging system from fma. This used the same 3200 kokam cells as the orion, and charged at 9 amps..

We all still have a lot to learn about lipos, treat them with respect at they will return the favour 

PS. Don't be to sure that flimsy plastic case will hold up in 60 impact with a concrete wall . But kokam are very robust cells and that is more important.


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## McLin (Dec 5, 2001)

I've got a dog in this fight but I'm not going to play the game.


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## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

..I'm not 100% sure, but if I've read the stuff on the FMA Scorpion charger...it will only balance charge the battery in question.

If that is the case..and all I have read is correct, by using 9 amps, the charger is actually only putting 4.5 amps per cell into the batteries. (Thus why even though it's charging at a higher rate on the charger than my Orion Advantage charger ...that I'm charging at 6.4 amps with...the FMA takes longer.) 

All that being said...ORION has said you can safely charge at upto 3c, but that it will shorten the life of your packs.

The only reason I would charge that high is due to time constraints, trying to run just one pack per day...with a small turnout.

Weigh the cost

1 pack + high charge rate... battery life short
2 packs + lower charge rate...longer battery life, but double the battery expense.

Over all - cost about the same~

Either way - One heck of a LOT cheaper over 12 months than NIMH batteries.

JUST Be careful guys - pay attention to your batteries, regardless of the charge rate. KEEP yourselves and your friends and family safe.~


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## billjacobs (Jul 26, 2004)

*charging lipo's at 10amps*

The fma scorpian charger charges the batteries at the setting used +-10%. I bought the scorpian charger directly from fma in frederick, md (I live 20 minutes from there) and asked their main designer/engineer. So if you select 8 amps on the dial, it will charge each cell between about 7.5amps and 8.5amps. 

The fma is also a balance charger so that each cell is being monitored individually. For the fma scorpian charger, and any balance charger, if the cells are unbalanced, it doesn't matter. Compare that to using the duratrax ice at 10amps without a balancer. If the cells are very unbalanced, you will overcharge 1 and risk a fire. The higher the charge rate, the more risk you have. 

There is a guy on rctech.net that works in the medical device industry and tests lipo batteries all day, every day. He knows more about lipo than any racer or anyone at the distributors (orion, smc, trakpower, etc.) This is a quote from him:

"Technically, you get a tiny bit more cycle life at 0.5C vs 1C charge, but the difference is so small, that it's not worth it. The cycle life degredation seems to be exponential. For example, some of the cells I tested had fantastic cycle life up to about 1.4C and then you really start noticing a dip at 1.5C and the dip becomes huge at 2C. It's highly dependent on the battery and it chemistry on how high of a charge it can accept. Also, charging at a higher charge rate does not make it perform any better - it just takes away cycle life.."

Lipo's charge differently than nimh. The first 90% of the charge happens at whatever charge rate you set (the cc-constant current- part of the charge), the last 10% takes forever because you are now in the cv (constant voltage) part of the charge. The current slowly drops from your charge rate down to 100ma and then the charge process stops. The cv part of the charge can take an additional 20 minutes or more and really provides no benefit. Most lipo's last longer if they are not charged to 100%.

The ONLY reason to charge lipo's at 2c is to save time. BUT, it is much better to charge up to 1.4c and then stop the charge at 90 or 92%. The fma scorpian charger is great for the money ($55-$60) When it switches from cc to cv, the light starts blinking fast, so you know to pull it off.

As for the hard case debate, I am not going to argue that a cased lipo will survive going into a wall at 60mph, because I don't know if it will or won't, but the cased lipo will stand a higher chance or surviving a slower impact than a non-cased lipo.


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## McLin (Dec 5, 2001)

Thank you!


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## NastyButler (Dec 27, 2005)

Well if you have 2 packs that are identical apart from one having the plastic case then that's probably true.

The main thing I wanted to get across is that you should not just think a pack is safe because it is a plastic case. A pack could be in a plastic case and be much more dangerous for other reasons than impact damage.

One local club has said that we can use any pack as long as it's in a plastic case which is missing the bigger picture. It's what's inside the case that will be the biggest potential risk.

The Duratrax Ice only goes to 8amps. I charge my maxamps 6ah pack at 8A between races so that is 1.3C. If I had a charger that could do 10 amps and I wanted to it would be 1.6c. I know that there are people racing with 8000mah 20c packs. 10 amps? no problem.

The BRCA has legalised lipos for next years national 19t/10.5 touring car class


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## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

Nasty,

I think a lot of clubs are stating "Any Plastic Cased Lipo" because they think that is what we did when we approved for OVAL racing the 3200 lipo.

They don't know that things were actually researched and tested

a) for function
b) for saftey
c) for cost
d) for durability
e) for equality in performance

They are kind of just coming along after the fact, and w/o knowledge saying "We don't care which Plastic Cased battery you use...as long as it's in a case"

This is something I disagree with and don't feel is the direction to go.

Either Stick with what we're trying to accomplish by leveling the playing field with just ONE power source (Orion 3200 Carbon Edition) or why both limiting at all..and let ANYTHING run? The negative NET effect will be the same.

Some had talked about the A123 batteries...and when we started looking into lipos the A123s were a little hard to find info about. There was a lot of stuff about them I liked...even the lower voltage was ok, although it was still higher than the 4 cell NIMH packs we were already using so a slower motor would have still been i order.

Personally, my biggest complaints were the configuration, the price and the fact that you couldn't use a 'normal charger' or even a regular 'lipo' charger. Plus I couldn't find any data more than a year or so old...

The 3200 ORION had a lot of data, lots of actual use (it had been in the RC market for over a year) and a great track record.


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## trailranger (Feb 9, 2006)

Agreed with the A123 Systems, When I spotted them 3 years ago in Wired Magazine I sent an email saying that both hobby and the power tool industy would like sub-c sized cells to reduce cost of retooling and redesigning. The A123 Systems shot themselves in the foot for thinking the industires would convert to thier size and thier chargers. It is the other way around, provide a non protitary component that is better than what we use today and the industdries will adapt to the change. In this case A123 should have provided better batteries in the sizes used today: CR123, Sub-C, D, F(Automotive hybird).

There are other options for batteries that are much safer than LiPo or the maxed out NiMH: Each of these alternatives have proven history for being a safter batter and will have better power density than NiMH.
Ag-ZN batteries, Nomial votage is 2.0V to 2.4V (10 ~ 20C rating)
LiFePO4 batteris, Nomial votage is 3.0V to 3.2V (10 ~ 20C rating)

These batteries have their issues with performance since not as much research went into development once more powerfull and more dense power sources were found. They are also not is a form factor the hobby loves (Sub-C) but the LiFePO4 can be found in the CR123 or 2/3A size.


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## James35 (Oct 27, 2006)

McLin said:


> Now the biggie…speed controls.
> 
> You can put some controls on the battery, you can put some controls on the motors but there is NO WAY to put any controls that can be teched (at a race track) on the speed control and THIS is where the advantages are going to come from.
> 
> ...


You are forgetting that the electromagnetic coils can only produce a certain amount of field strength at a given voltage. You can advance or retard the timing in the motor or speed controller until you are blue in the face, but there is a certain point where you will never get more power of the motor. That's just the laws of physics at work. 



trailranger said:


> I feel POWER ratings should be how the brushless classes should be setup. These numbers are just to illustrate an example..
> SPEC 100W
> STOCK 150W (13.5)
> PRO-STOCK 150W+ (Same motor, but with upgrades like larger rotors)
> ...


Yes, this not only simplifies the rules greatly, but you can now mix and match different manufacturers, brushed and brushless, and technologies (like different types of windings, rotor sizes, etc..). 



trailranger said:


> These rules could be physical or performance measures:
> 
> Performance measures could be an absolute maximum wattage produced and max RPM at a certain physical timing. Inductance!
> 
> Physical rules, can be case size, rotor size and type, standardize bearings, winding counts, winding styles, air gaps, wiring harness style and wire order, sensor position, rebuild able design. The end result should be every motor the same but the label.


You got off track a little bit here, because it's even easier than you are suggesting. For starters, you don't need to have max RPM's or timings in the rules because they are covered when you test the motor for amount of power (Watts) it produces at 7.2V.

HP (Watts) = RPM x Torque
746 Watts = 1 electric horsepower
_"Horsepower is horsepower! Speed then, is just a matter of gearing." -Big Jim _

When classifying by power (Watts), you also do not need make special rules for bearings, winding styles, rotor size/type, air gap, etc.... it's all accounted for when you test the motor's power. Power classifications also covers all future technologies and improvements. 

Motor manufacturers could send in their motors to ROAR which would dyno and classify the motors. ROAR would also specify that approvals would be subject to random, off-the-shelf testing. If any tested motors exceed their class power rating, then a warning would be sent to the manufacturer, and more testing would be done. If the tested motor continued to be problem, ROAR would reclassify the motor by bumping it up to the next class. Manufacturers would not want this and would work hard to keep them all under the appropriate power levels. The good news is, the manufacturing process for brushless motors is better than brushed and the variance is much smaller, making it easier to obtain this goal.

I think the only thing needed for this to happen is an increased availability of dynos (or even a ROAR approved company to provide this service.) It would also be beneficial if local race tracks could get some dynos too. Maybe in the meantime, the motor buyout rule could be used at the local race tracks.


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## McLin (Dec 5, 2001)

James35, as for the speed controls; I was not speaking of “theory” or physics and all I can tell you is what happened, you can dismiss it any way you chose.

What you say about simple controls over products sounds good IF we were all interested in playing by the rules. (Read the speed control deal again.) If, say for instance, you have a motor company and I have a motor company and you have the “product of choice” right now. There would be no reason for me to build another one exactly like yours. Who would want it? My goal would be to build something a little better so people would have a reason to buy mine.

As for getting it ROAR or BRL or who ever approved, I wouldn’t get too upset about it because 90% of the races being run are not sanctioned events. But giving that to be a main concern, if I would build a “better mouse trap” the racers would scream and shout until the organizations approved it no matter what rules they would have to change to get it done. The hand wound 19t is one example of that.

I can only speak for what I am involved in and that’s Oval racing and we don’t need a dozen people building speed controls and another dozen building motors and so forth and we are not big enough in numbers for it to bother them much. And this is the way that I hope Freddie will approach rule making as he works with rebuilding ARCOR.

ROAR, on the other hand, has to enact rules to cover all venues of racing and has a whole different agenda to go by. However, it’s like the old saying goes….”once the barn door is opened…………”so I would hope that they too would take a very cautious approach to who and what they will allow in their rules when it comes to brushless and LiPo’s.

We, as RC’ers have the perfect opportunity to almost start all over again in the way things are done. We will never completely end the motor and battery wars but with brushless motors and LiPo batteries it is the closest thing we can get to a “do over”. “Rules” to govern what is sold to us will not do the job unless the rules limit the people that can make the products. If there is little or no competition for them there will be little or no reason to keep throwing new “stuff” at us.


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## AEman69 (Nov 21, 2007)

I'm not sure what you are all talking about but personally i do think that speed controls should have limits for certain classes. I do know a lot of people that race in slower classes cuz higher classes cost to much. I do think its right for top sponsored guys to be handed extremely high tech esc's that aren't open to the public.


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