# Phase II Enterprise Study Model



## Shaw

*News Flash:* _Shaw starts work on _another_ Enterprise model_

Quick show of hands... how many of you thought that my next model project would be _another_ Enterprise model? Yeah, that was what I thought, I'm pretty predictable in that way.

This project was originally supposed to be started six months to a year from now, but recent events (which I'm not at liberty to discuss) pushed this forward, and the fact that this would be a perfect model to test creating molds and casting parts pushed it right to the front of the line.

I'm sure that most people in these parts are familiar with the Phase II Enterprise, this study model will be my attempt to bring together elements of Matt Jefferies' Phase II plans with elements of Brick Price's miniature, fleshing out the geometry and details that would have made up a final studio model had it been finished. The end result will (hopefully) be an accurate representation of what the model might have looked like and all the details needed to put together a final set of plans of the model.

Some of you might have noted that I brought up geometry, and this is why I'm using both Jefferies and Price's work, and why building a study model is also important. One need look no further than one of the signature elements of the Phase II design to see where these types of problems pop up... I'm talking about the nacelles. Jefferies' drawing seem to miss some aspects of how the (complex) elements would come together, and I noticed that the areas that were bothering me seem to have been done as I might have dealt with them on Price's model.

Based on the _measure twice, cut once_ approach, I'm drawing up plans for the different elements making sure I address as many issues that might pop up in construction as I can on paper so that I won't be caught by surprise (too much) when the physical building starts. As noted above, this is where I'll be cutting my teeth on making molds and casting parts (though I did a little of that back in 1989 to 1991), an I'd like to concentrate on that aspect while building.

So, as I said, the nacelles are going to be a challenge, so I'm starting with them. Studying the design of the nacelles, I've tried to strip away any elements that define if the nacelle is port or starboard, and concentrate on building a symmetric foundation nacelle. This can then be used to make two copies and I'd add the unique elements to those to make them either port or starboard. This is my preliminary nacelle design...


_Click to enlarge_​
This sketch more closely resembles the geometry of the Price miniature than the Jefferies plans (even though they are mostly based on measurements from the Jefferies plans).


Some of the things I need to still reconcile...

*Decals and hull markings-* On Jefferies' plans he uses the same lettering style as was used on the pilot versions of the Enterprise, but an enlarged section of the secondary hull near the docking port has a "7" that is more like the series version. Plus, the plans don't include any of the other markings (besides the number and pendant on the side of the secondary hull), but the idea was that the secondary hull and primary hull were left unaltered... so I'm looking into if those elements (that weren't directly effected by the major changes) are carried over. I'm leaning towards _yes_ on most, because it looks like some of the panel lines on the secondary hull are actually placed about where the water mark numbers are on the original models.

*Windows and other features on the Primary Hull-* Jefferies included very few features on his drawings of the primary hull, which might reflect the idea that those would be taken directly from the original models unless specifically drawn out by him. Unfortunately, early test assemblies of the model show a primary hull that only includes the features Jefferies had drawn and nothing else. And studies of the Planet Hollywood models show that no additional features were added to the molds (as the windows on those models were roughly drilled into an otherwise smooth surface).

So I'm hoping that I'll be able to answer many of these mysteries in the coming months (specially before I have to address them in the building of this model).


Additional resources...
Cleaned-up Jefferies Plans (2007)
Raw source drawing and shots of the incomplete model (2007)​Sorry that these resources are pretty old, but I don't have any thing else that I can directly share at this time. But I'll try to be sure to include improved data in my sketches and (of course) the final plans when completed.


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## Gregatron

As always, Shaw, your research is fan-freakin'-tastic.


I've occasionally toyed with the idea of bashing together 1/1000 TOS and Refit kits into a PHASE II. It sort of baffles me that there's no aftermarket set out there to make to job easier!


Really, the basic shape of the Refit is correct for the PII. The only major replacement parts would be the hangar doors, Bridge/B/C decks, dorsal torp tube, impulse engines, and nacelles/pylons. 

The trickiest part would be rescribing the saucer grid to have the correct amount and spacing of gridlines.


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## Captain April

A while back, I bashed together a AMT refit and a Cutaway, and it came out pretty decent. Somewhere on photobucket, I'm pretty sure I've got pictures, which I can't seem to locate at the moment...


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## StarshipClass

Gregatron said:


> Really, the basic shape of the Refit is correct for the PII. The only major replacement parts would be the hangar doors, Bridge/B/C decks, dorsal torp tube, impulse engines, and nacelles/pylons.


You're exactly right. Except for heavily modifying the engines or scratchbuilding them, it's not much of a conversion job.



Gregatron said:


> The trickiest part would be rescribing the saucer grid to have the correct amount and spacing of gridlines.


I've thought of doing a PII but not going to the point of rescribing the saucer.

I've been planning on building up a _USS Lexington_ as if the saucer and secondary hull (converted from the old AMT refit kit) were built Phase II style to begin with and then adding the cutaway STOS style engines. Would make for an interesting variation of the _Constitution _class, I think.


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## StarshipClass

Shaw said:


> *News Flash:* _Shaw starts work on _another_ Enterprise model_ . . .
> 
> I'm sure that most people in these parts are familiar with the Phase II Enterprise, this study model will be my attempt to bring together elements of Matt Jefferies' Phase II plans with elements of Brick Price's miniature, fleshing out the geometry and details that would have made up a final studio model had it been finished. The end result will (hopefully) be an accurate representation of what the model might have looked like and all the details needed to put together a final set of plans of the model.


Excellent news! Looking forward to every bit of it! :thumbsup:

You and Gregatron are fonts of incredible knowledge and attention to detail! :thumbsup:


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## Shaw

Thanks for the encouragement guys! :thumbsup:



Well, the fact that the primary hull and secondary hull are nearly identical gives me a starting point... sort of.








I'll be building the primary hull and secondary hull from an AMT/ERTL refit, but I plan on removing all the surface features on both and filling in any holes left from the removal of those features.

Obviously, there is going to be a big hole on top of the primary hull after removing the B/C deck structure and a hole where the impulse engine housing was. When I'm to the stage where I'll be test fitting the new B/C deck and impulse engine spine, the upper primary hull should look like there were never any holes in those spots. Similarly, the base of the nacelle support struts need to be removed and the holes that remain modified to work with the new support struts. The hole where the refit dorsal attached to the secondary hull will also need modification to accept the new dorsal.

Additionally, the upper rim of the primary hull needs to be brought to a sharp edge (like the TOS Enterprise) and (as noted) the hangar area needs reworking. I'm not worried about the hangar modifications as I actually did everything I need to do here on my last two-thirds scale 33 inch replica (I cut off everything and started over on that one, including reshaping the undercut).

When it comes down to it, I honestly debated not using the AMT/ERTL refit as a starting point because so little of the model will actually be used (and even then heavily modified). I've made primary hulls from scratch before and the cool interlocking setup of the TOS cutaway model between the nacelle supports and the secondary hull doesn't exist here (that was the only reason I used any parts from the cutaway in my last Enterprise).

What tipped the scales in favor of the AMT/ERTL refit was that having the general shapes of the primary hull and secondary hull might cut down on the work on those parts (hopefully by half), and if it turns out to be a nice model maybe people would be willing to buy parts for their AMT/ERTL refit (most likely I'd only offer the nacelles and bridge/B/C deck structure). After all, the parts I scratch build aren't going to be the parts that end up on the model, so I should end up with masters and molds after I finish. Plus I'll be putting together decals for the windows and other hull markings that people might want (even if they don't change any parts on the AMT/ERTL refit). I've also been considering putting together decals that would match the hull markings of the refit as it was before the last minute reworking for TMP (as I have a number of good references for them now).

And using the AMT/ERTL refit primary hull and secondary hull might still involve additional work that I haven't planned for. For example, once I have those parts, I'll be scanning in the contours of them and doing a direct comparison with my plans. If they deviate by too much, I'll have to put extra effort into modifying them further. This being a study model, I'd be willing to accept a certain margin of deviation from the plans (like I had to on my last Enterprise model).

Because this model will be significantly smaller than the studio model (22 inches compared to 63 inches), I'm not going to worry about scribing either grid lines or panel lines on this model. I'll most likely do what I did on the Republic (draw all of them with white pencil, only a little more pronounced in this case).


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## Spidey7

I might have mentioned this before, but they have Brick Price's unused 6'-8' Phase II model hanging from the ceiling of the Planet Hollywood in NY, NY, (or at least they used to). I've still got a few photos of it from the last time I was there.


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## kenlee

There is always this version, it is being used by the online Star Trek Phase II series.


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## Shaw

I think a little back history on the subject might be helpful.

I started working on this in the summer of 2007 at about the same time as I started in on my plans for the 33 inch TOS Enterprise. In addition to cleaning up copies of Jefferies' plans, I had started in on making a complete set of plans of the Phase II Enterprise. What I found was that the holes in my data left me making too many "artistic" choices... and it is one of the main rules I set for myself to not inject myself into historical research (after all, I wasn't there).

This is as far as I had gotten when I put the whole project on ice...








There have been a lot of CGI attempts at making an accurate representation, I think Dennis Bailey and NBTrekie both made very nice CGI models from the available information. Daren Dochterman's version strays _way_ off into making massive artistic changes, and even the current version that the Phase II production has adopted (which is actually nice) basically takes elements of Dochterman's earlier model (the nacelles and supports) and puts them on a TOS Enterprise.

But in all these cases, we are talking about people filling in the gaps with their artistic ideas (or making complete changes), which was a line I didn't want to cross.

What changed was that I got an e-mail out of the blue from someone (who wishes to remain anonymous) that had information that could fill in a majority of the gaps in information that stopped the project 5 years ago. That is why, other than the modified primary hull and secondary hull, everything else on this model will be built from scratch.



So *Spidey7*, I noticed that you had some questions (here about the Planet Hollywood model. Here is the full story...

There were five of those models made. Brick Price was commissioned by Paramount to modify the Phase II Enterprise parts to build _replicas_ of the TMP Enterprise and the models were presented to Planet Hollywood by Paramount. Price still has the molds, but he doesn't have a license from CBS to make any additional models and has never provided models from those molds to anyone other than Paramount.

More over, the reason why the Phase II Enterprise was scrapped was so that Magicam (a newly formed effects wing of Paramount) could build the TMP model. There was nothing wrong with the size of the Phase II model, at 5 feet 4 inches, it is actually in scale with the Reliant (which is why parts from the original Phase II model delivered to Paramount ended up on the Reliant model in TNG). Parts of the original model did actually make it onto the big screen... as the destroyed Enterprise in Star Trek III.

As for the Planet Hollywood models, I know one of then was sold on ebay back in the spring of 2008 to a collector for about $15,000. That model underwent major modification by Ed Miarecki to more closely resemble the TMP Enterprise and now resides in Space Dock.


Hope that fills in a few gaps... sorry for the long winded post with no real progress.


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## WarpCore Breach

Shaw, your research is thorough and inspiring!

I have a Cutaway _Enterprise_ set aside aside for a Phase II -ish conversion, but only have Refit engines and pylons to go with it for now.

Really liked your engine analysis drawings; good sectional views.


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## Ductapeforever

Don't get me wrong, I love anything *Enterprise* ,but I think something like this done on the TOS version and presented here for the sake of detailing
and reference in preparation of the 350 kit would be quite valuable to builders less familiar with the minutia of Trekdom . A seperate thread perhaps.


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## Paulbo

Ductapeforever said:


> Don't get me wrong, I love anything *Enterprise* ,but I think something like this done on the TOS version and presented here for the sake of detailing
> and reference in preparation of the 350 kit would be quite valuable to builders less familiar with the minutia of Trekdom . A seperate thread perhaps.


Ummm, the name of this thread is "Phase II Enterprise Study Model". It has nothing to do with the 1/350 TOS Enterprise.


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## Ductapeforever

Paulbo said:


> Ummm, the name of this thread is "Phase II Enterprise Study Model". It has nothing to do with the 1/350 TOS Enterprise.


Precisely why I suggested another thread, Mr. Shaws work is amazing and I can only imagine what something like this on the 350 Enterprise might be like. Please continue the discussion at hand..


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## Steve H

I guess my question is just how 'finalized' was the Phase II Enterprise? All I had ever seen was pictures of an 'in progress' model but details such as the nacelles were still rough, as if they were struggling with what they actually wanted. 

Lighting didn't seem to be much of a consideration oddly enough. 

So, reading between the lines in the thread so far, it seems the Phase II was an ongoing collaboration between Brick Price and Matt Jefferies because it doesn't seem that Jefferies presented finished plans for a model to be built from. I do not discount the potential that Roddenberry had both Price and Jefferies working (unknowingly) at cross purposes which may well have resulted in lots and lots of 'start and stop and do it over' action.

Say, is Price still alive? Maybe someone needs to get his story down on paper about Phase II and TMP.

Anyway, my thought on the nacelles, with my built in assumption that they were not quite finalized as Jefferies struggled with the balance/proportion issue (as we all know, VERY important with the Enterprise and why many feel the JJPrise was just...off...) is: Think aircraft. Consider the original Enterprise as if it had big, giant rotary piston engines turning propellers. You can see the image if you think about it. Now, the Phase II Enterprise was to be the new hotness, and it was faster and streamlined and so on, so the nacelles may be more akin to either a turboprop, or of course a axle flow jet engine. 

Shaw, I think you're on the right track from what I see so far. I'm not sure that low on the hull docking hatch would have stayed, there's a clear 'interface issue' when someone would walk from the original design office unit/shuttlepod thing onto the ship. I kind of like the giant 'buzz numbers' on the engineering hull, sort of says the nacelles are so darn mighty they don't dare put stuff on them.


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## Gregatron

One of the things that's held me back from any sort of PII model would be the existence of those gray areas Shaw mentioned--those details that would require artistic license in order to complete the model.

We've only really had the unfinished model, the blueprints, and a few concept paintings to go by. A number of key areas (like the specifics of the deflector dish, engines, and markings) have been hard to pin down, as a result.



Looking forward to seeing what comes of this research!


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## Captain April

Found my pictures!


































I did it mainly as a proof-of-concept model, going by Matt Jefferies' stated intent for the saucer to remain "largely untouched" and the bulk of the changed taking place with the lower hull and the engines.


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## Shaw

I really do appreciate the confidence you guys have in me. There is a lot more to all this, but I'm not at liberty to discuss certain aspects, other aspects I'm not sure I should discuss, and still other aspects I'd like to cross reference before discussing. On the technical side of things, I haven't had the opportunity yet to see the resources that might be available (as I'm currently _geographically challenged_).

I'd point out that the photos we've all seen of _the model_ wasn't the actual model (or at least not all of it). The primary hull and one nacelle of the test assembly that was photographed were pulls from the molds. The dorsal, secondary hull, supports and the other nacelle were the (unfinished) masters. The model had progress much further before Paramount pulled the plug on the model (which is why I'm sure that I can fill in a lot of the gray areas that eluded me before).

As for how close Jefferies and Price had worked together, Price was working from Jefferies plans and the model followed those even closer than Datin's TOS Enterprise models had to Jefferies' plans. Jefferies knew from the outset that he was going to be a little out of the loop because he wasn't willing to give up his job on _Little House on the Prairie_. And Jefferies even took the time to note this on one of his drawings which reads...
_"DRAWING NOT UPDATED TO REFLECT CHANGES MADE ON MINIATURE"_​And even though this was 13 years after the original TOS models were designed and built, this was still primarily a hand drawn drafting era (though oversize copying machines were readily available by this point). So even though Jefferies could keep copies of his drawings (something he hadn't with the original TOS Enterprise plans), the curves of certain parts changed from version to version. Which is why Price's model is closer to the one-to-one scale plans than any of the other drawings done by Jefferies.

Will the full story of all this come out one day? Sure... but right now most everyone seems to want to talk _off the record_ because they still have cards in the game (so to speak). And while I like the history stuff, the technical stuff is what I'm really passionate about... and collecting together all the technical data into a complete set of plans (and a model... or two) doesn't seem to harm anyone (though I would love to give credit where credit is due).


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## StarshipClass

The major questions I have--and that have been open to artistic interpretations, so far--are the following:

1. What was the deflector supposed to look like? There is plenty of artwork showing a TOS style deflector dish but the original plans showed nothing there leaving it looking similar to the movie refit.

2. What was the paint job and detailing going to be like? We can get some ideas from the artwork but that's nothing as firm as written notes, etc. Light gray as on the TOS version or perhaps something much closer to white as appears in some of the artwork?

3. There was going to be engine lighting (blue-green, IIRC) coming from the engines inboard (and outboard?) grilles similar to the purple or blue coming from the movie refit inboard engines but, IIRC, Roddenberry supposedly wanted some extra lighting details--what were they going to be like?

I think the following are nailed down:

1. Structural details (with exception of deflector dish) that resemble the movie refit in general on the primary and secondary hulls are pretty much firm based on what's available with blueprints and artwork.

2. Location and style of font used on the Phase II is firm based on completed section of secondary hull used for close-up of shuttlepod docking and artwork.

It seems that there should be enough people still around who were involved in the project to answer some of these questions. I can't imagine that these are "industry secrets" or anything. It would be nice to fill in some of the details on the 1701P2 or perhaps the answers are already out there and I just haven't come across them yet.


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## Warped9

I'm curious to see how this will turn out even though I've never really cared for the Phase II design. I felt it looked awkward. The TMP refit was a huge improvement.


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## Paulbo

Ductapeforever said:


> Precisely why I suggested another thread, Mr. Shaws work is amazing and I can only imagine what something like this on the 350 Enterprise might be like. Please continue the discussion at hand..


Ah, misunderstood what you meant.


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## Steve H

I suspect part of the problem hinted at by Mr. Shaw is the usual concern some have that if they talk about (project) they'll never work in Hollywood again (tm) because studios and producers are insecure big babies that don't like people 'telling all' because it either (a)reflects a time when the current regime wasn't in charge and it may seem the 'old guard' was better than them and (b) information control is a religion out there.

There may be totally outdated and inactive NDAs that are thought still active. I know in my experience one can go ask about something and the first reaction is always "no, you can't do that/know that" because that's the default position, and then the negotiations and ego-massaging and all that has to begin. 

Anyway, I had a thought last night. An odd thought. 

What if the design intent was that the saucer was to NOT have any windows?

We're all puzzled by the drawings. We see on the mock-up they match the drawings, with the plain saucer and the engineering hull having plenty of cut in windows. Maybe, just maybe, this is the way it actually was going to be? 

Yes, I know, what's the logic? I don't know. Maybe there was concern about access or strength or a mis-understanding about what the tech of the time could handle, or Roddenberry wanted a smooth saucer because it was more protective or...I don't know. I'm trying to put my head in a 'making a TV show in the mid '70s' pattern and I keep hitting 'logic stops' caused by lack of info. We KNOW that the saucer could be lit, which means windows could be cut in, but I can't work around why window placement would be such a big deal that it hadn't been finalized and indicated on the plans. Only obvious thoughts are that either the windows would be a combo of paint/decal/reflective tape or, for whatever reason, would be smooth.

Boy, it's really kinda hard to close off the thinking of what was eventually done for the TMP model. I'm not sure why a solution for 'big movie model' wouldn't be the same as 'weekly TV series' model unless it involves the TV model needing to be more robust due to constant handling for new effects shots over years. I suspect the web of small mirrors and key lights for the hull illumination effect (TMP) would be a NIGHTMARE to deal with under the constraints of weekly TV production, as an example.


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## RSN

On an episode of "Hollywood Treasures", on the SyFy channel, they went to Brick Price's' storage area and were digging through it. They came upon original castings and molds for all his "Phase II" Enterprise work. They still exists and he can make a new one at anytime.


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## Shaw

PerfesserCoffee said:


> The major questions I have--
> ...


The geometry of the deflector seems pretty much the same as the TMP deflector. Jefferies incorporated the dish into the housing on the Phase II design, I'm guessing that this was because the original design was never utilized in TOS as it was intended (it was meant to move, changing direction as needed... but never did that). I don't think that it was supposed to light up (like in TMP), but that is on my list of things to check out. Similarly, I'd be curious how it was intended to be painted (would it have remained copper-ish like the TOS version?).

The plans for the nacelles are another area I'll be looking into (were they to be lit and how?).

And there isn't just people still around (and working, as I pointed out earlier), there is stuff still around that hasn't been seen in decades (including notes and plans from what I understand). But we'll see what comes of all this, it sorta popped up out of the blue and I'm still figuring out what I've been given access to. Right now I've had a couple e-mails and phone conversations, but based on past experiences in this type of thing I'm not going to push.

Plus this is all happening sorta backwards for me. I was planning on having everything I had on this subject laid out with every hole in my data well defined before contacting people about this. So having someone come to me way before I was ready has put me in an odd position... but I'm not complaining.

The thing is, even though it may seem like this stuff is ancient history and should be inconsequential, I found out in digging around for the 33 inch Enterprise that it can come back and bite you in very unpleasant ways. Star Trek is a billion dollar property and anything to do with it can blow up really fast and really messy. It is part of the reason that I stick to non-fiction historical aspects of Star Trek, because I have legal coverage under copyright law.


*Steve*, it is interesting to note that there weren't any windows drawn on the TOS plans for the primary hull either, which I think comes down to Jefferies not wanting to draw on them from an angle on the plans.




RSN said:


> On an episode of "Hollywood Treasures", on the SyFy channel, they went to Brick Price's' storage area and were digging through it. They came upon original castings and molds for all his "Phase II" Enterprise work. They still exists and he can make a new one at anytime.


Yes, he can. He won't, but could. Part of the reason for suggesting the mold's value at $100,000 was because of the headaches involved in even getting permission from Paramount/CBS to sell them.

So yeah, if he wanted to make a model for himself, he could do that at any time. But the moment there is any possibility of exchange of money, legal issues pop up.


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## Trekkriffic

Just read thru this thread and am looking forward to seeing how this all progresses. 
If it's up to the snuff of your TOS Enterprise builds it should be mahvelous!


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## RSN

Shaw said:


> Yes, he can. He won't, but could. Part of the reason for suggesting the mold's value at $100,000 was because of the headaches involved in even getting permission from Paramount/CBS to sell them.
> 
> So yeah, if he wanted to make a model for himself, he could do that at any time. But the moment there is any possibility of exchange of money, legal issues pop up.


My point was, why not try contacting Brick Price directly to determine the elusive details on the original design. He would know and there would be no speculation. :thumbsup:


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## Shaw

Well, I've pointed out that I can't discuss who I've had contact with (or haven't had contact with), but in the end there isn't going to be any _speculation_. I can assure you that I wouldn't have restarted this project if any measure of speculation was involved.


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## JGG1701

Hey Mr. Shaw.
Although not a phase II. 








Looking very much forward to see your progress.
-Jim


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## Captain April

If you have any tidbits that might be of interest for the new Concordance, feel free to PM me.

I should get back to work on that anyway...


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## StarshipClass

JGG1701 said:


> Hey Mr. Shaw.
> Although not a phase II.


That is supposed to be the Phase II Enterprise--subjected to heavy artistic interpretation. They apparently used whatever artwork they already had in the early days of promoting the movie.


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## JGG1701

PerfesserCoffee said:


> That is supposed to be the Phase II Enterprise--subjected to heavy artistic interpretation. They apparently used whatever artwork they already had in the early days of promoting the movie.


I knew that.........
-Jim


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## StarshipClass

JGG1701 said:


> I knew that.........
> -Jim





> Posts: 3,448


Oops! I should have checked your number of posts first! :wave:


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## Shaw

Another set of parts that will be scratch built are the nacelle supports. I'm thinking about approaching these the same way that I plan on dealing with the open areas on the sides toward the front of the nacelles. That is, build the part with a cavity, cut a piece of corrugated styrene that fits into the cavity but leaves an opening towards the front. On the studio model, this piece was part of the masters, but it would be easier for me to deal with it as a separate piece.

The same thing should work with the vents on the sides of the supports, except that Jefferies has the part further out towards the front and sinking in towards the back. And all of that is happening where the supports are narrowing. This might be more than what I could get a model of the size of the study model to show, so I might not worry about this aspect (specially as it doesn't seem like it was done that way on the studio model's supports).

Anyways, some early sketches of the support.


_Click to enlarge_​


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## Steve H

All things considered, I'm thinking you may want to give a thought of designing some other support for the nacelles and treating the pylons as skins around it. I just have this feeling this is going to be a problematical area, even moreso than the TMP version.


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## StarshipClass

Steve H said:


> All things considered, I'm thinking you may want to give a thought of designing some other support for the nacelles and treating the pylons as skins around it. I just have this feeling this is going to be a problematical area, even moreso than the TMP version.


My thoughts exactly! Especially if converting the 1/350th 1701 refit.:thumbsup:


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## Shaw

Well, right now the only thing that I'm working on is fleshing out the actual geometry of the parts. The engineering of them is quite a few steps removed from where we are at here.

That having been said, the last time I build the TMP Enterprise (back in 1991) I had a metal rod embedded in each support and anchored in the secondary hull. And I actually have more to work with here than my last three models which all went from essentially this…








to this…

​
Where I had to reengineer how the supports attached to the nacelles from how the models were originally designed. And the nacelles aren't going to be solid resin blocks (though considering how I generally over engineer things, it wouldn't matter if they were).

Nacelle alignment is a deal breaker in all models I build. Either they align perfectly, or… they align perfectly. I don't believe in the _sagging Enterprise model scenario_.

And the dorsal (which is another scratch built part) isn't that different from these supports, but will have to deal with even more weight. And on my last Enterprise model everything from the dorsal up was scratch built, and that model looks as good today as when I finished it two years ago.

​
I may not be the best at painting or applying decals, and my sculpting abilities may be questionable, but I know I can get all the parts on a starship to align perfectly. :thumbsup:


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## Shaw

I've been under the weather the last few days, so that is why I haven't made much progress. I did take some time to go back and look at some of the progress I made back in 2007 and merged it with some of what I've done recently.


_Click to enlarge_​
It isn't much, but it is something new to look at.


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## Shaw

I guess interest in this has dropped off a bit, so I'll post a truncated update touching mainly on the model building aspects.


So I finally had a chance to sit down and do some data collection from the AMT/ERTL Refit model. It was always my intension to bring that data into my drawings for the parts (as in the end they all have to work together). Plus this gave me a chance to see what I had as a starting point by doing comparisons with Phase II drawings by Jefferies.

When I compared the collected data on the AMT/ERTL Refit's primary hull with the one-to-one scale plans for the studio model, I became a little bewildered. These were pretty far removed from each other, and I'd be better off scratch building the primary hull if I wanted to match those plans. Fortunately Jefferies provided me with an out... the cross-section's curves are actually very close, and I could get away with making minimal modifications to the larger structure.


_Click to enlarge_​
Similarly, I thought I was going to have more to work with on the secondary hull in rebuilding the hangar deck. It'll be a little harder than when I did almost the same thing on my last two-thirds scale 33 inch Enterprise (there I had also replaced the hangar deck features and had to recreate the undercut below them), but it's not unreasonable.


_Click to enlarge_​
I've started in on the dorsal. I noticed that this is a spot where Jefferies and Price/Loos differed quite a bit. For this model I'll be using Jefferies' larger scale plans because I think it'll be easier when I have to build the torpedo assembly housing later on. This is what I'm planning on building...


_Click to enlarge_​
In the drawings above, because this is for the model, I used the primary and secondary hull contours from the AMT/ERTL Refit because that is what the part will be attaching to. I also included a comparison of the AMT/ERTL Refit dorsal because I know that some people think that because the side views are similar it would make a good starting point, but the cross-sections show why I'm opting to scratch build the part.


----------



## Hunch

I, for one, am very much enjoying your plans/study of this beautiful version of the ship. I never liked all the aztek painting done on TMP Enterprise and when I do build my 1/350 kit it will be painted more to match TOS enterprise than the overdone (in my opinion) incarnation that appears in the film proper.
I may also one day attempt to do the Phase 2 'prise and the info you are providing is invaluable to me.
Keep up the great work.:thumbsup:
Jim


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## StarshipClass

Hunch said:


> I, for one, am very much enjoying your plans/study of this beautiful version of the ship. I never liked all the aztek painting done on TMP Enterprise and when I do build my 1/350 kit it will be painted more to match TOS enterprise than the overdone (in my opinion) incarnation that appears in the film proper.
> I may also one day attempt to do the Phase 2 'prise and the info you are providing is invaluable to me.
> Keep up the great work.:thumbsup:
> Jim


I've planned all along to make the 1/350 ST:TMP model kit into a Phase II. Getting Shaw's attention to this subject is like going to school in preparation for the project.


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## Captain April

Thinking back on my version, with the Cutaway saucer and Refit everything else, how would it go using the Refit secondary hull with the hangar section of the Cutaway secondary hull, to get that undercut and hangar doors?


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## Shaw

Thanks guys!




Captain April said:


> Thinking back on my version, with the Cutaway saucer and Refit everything else, how would it go using the Refit secondary hull with the hangar section of the Cutaway secondary hull, to get that undercut and hangar doors?


Well, the doors are still going to be the wrong shape (though that can be fixed with the DLM doors) and the overall opening is too short (which was why I rebuilt all of it on my last Enterprise), but you can successfully graft many of the cutaway model's elements with the refit... including the hangar elements. This attempt showed how many parts of the two kits can be made to work together.




I didn't have much time today, but I was curious how what I've worked on so far was coming together, so I did a _quick-n-dirty_ test assembly to get a feel of where I'm at and how the AMT/ERTL Refit parts are going to do as stand-ins (with the currently planned modifications). This is what I came up with...


_Click to enlarge_​


----------



## charonjr

Does the Southbend Electronic Enterprise toy have more accurate saucer curves? I know the engines are movie style, as is the hanger bay.


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## Shaw

charonjr said:


> Does the Southbend Electronic Enterprise toy have more accurate saucer curves? I know the engines are movie style, as is the hanger bay.


Yes... if you don't take into account the thicker rim and the extra stuff added for the sound effects equipment and all.

More importantly, the bridge/B/C deck structure is dead on for the original TMP studio model build, which is pretty close to the Phase II structure. They built the toy based on Probert's original plans and the stickers based on the original decals. It is actually a nice reference source (I have a ton of photos... though I haven't had the toy since 1981).


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## StarshipClass

You know, I always knew the lower saucer hull would need some added decks to modify it and knew the AMT version was off on the curvature underneath but could live with that since it reflected some of the better artwork of the PII.










The upper hull presents more of a dilemma in my book. One of the drawings by MJ (the 3-view from the Phase II book) shows a much more TMP look to the upper hull--which is different from the up-close building plans as you've pointed out. 










Since it was being built with the straighter slope on the top of the primary saucer, that is pretty much the standard and is much more critical, IMHO, in getting the overall look of the ship correct.

I'm wondering if it might be better to go with a cutaway saucer and modify that.


----------



## Shaw

Well, the AMT/ERTL Cutaway's curves are further away than the AMT/ERTL Refit's, plus it is nearly an inch smaller in diameter.

I've got a little time to consider options. The curves on the studio model are so muted that we aren't talking a ton of extra work to scratch build the primary hull. I could even replace the top with a sheet of styrene reshaped with a heat gun.

The thing to keep in mind is that this isn't a model of either the studio model or Jefferies' design, it's sort of a tool to help in the visualizing of both. I realized early on that I should break up the plans into two sets, a Jefferies set and a Price/Loos set. And I need to examine both versions if I'm going to accurately document both.

That having been said… the goal is for this model to end up in storage (along side my two study models of the 33 inch Enterprise). What I'd like to have in the end is a studio scale representation of the Price/Loos model that reflects how it would have appeared onscreen in the pilot episode of Star Trek Phase II. And now that I believe that such a model could be built without third party interpretations being applied, that is the long term aim of this project (for myself).

But that brings us back to how this model got bumped to the front of the line. Before I attempt a 64 inch starship model, I wanted to build a 33 inch starship model. And before I attempted a 33 inch starship model, it would be nice to have something smaller (like 22 inches) to try things out on.

Might I consider a scratch built primary hull here? Right now there is a 50/50 chance because I was surprised at how heavy the kit primary hull is right out of the box. So I'm not 100% either way right now, it is mainly trying to find the path of least resistance (balance of best result for the least amount of invested time).


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## StarshipClass

Shaw said:


> Well, the AMT/ERTL Cutaway's curves are further away than the AMT/ERTL Refit's, plus it is nearly an inch smaller in diameter. . . .


I'm thinking of "grafting" the two hulls.


----------



## Shaw

Oh... okay. I see what you were going for. Well, for me I think that would cross the threshold of being enough work to warrant just scratch building the hull. It is easier for me to sculpt than to merge different parts along a line that I had to cut.

But that was what that one guy over at CultTVman's site did.

At any rate, here are the cross-sections of the two models' primary hulls with the studio model's cross-section for comparison.


_Click to enlarge_​


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## StarshipClass

Thanks! Great resource!


----------



## Steve H

wow, it's funny, I never thought the refit had THAT deep a 'scoop' in the saucer. There's hardly any room at all for (in a real ship) support structure or framing.


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## WarpCore Breach

Agreed. I could have sworn there was more internal space than that, but I'm not disputing the diagram as well.

I've got a Cutaway saucer and secondary hull as well as Refit engines and pylons to mate to it. Maybe a sort of "Phase IIa". 

This is fascinating research!


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## Captain April

I'm feeling rather inspired to take another run at this project.

Some day.


----------



## Trek Ace

Steve H said:


> wow, it's funny, I never thought the refit had THAT deep a 'scoop' in the saucer. There's hardly any room at all for (in a real ship) support structure or framing.


The studio model and PL kit don't, but the AMT refit kit _does_.


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## Shaw

So while I was considering what to do with the primary hull, it dawned on me that I had significantly more reference photos since the work I had done back in 2007. Since that time I had collected photos from the ebay auction and reconstruction of one of the Planet Hollywood models... which included some edge on shots of the primary hull. I had had plenty of shots of the underside, and I only needed to see how the dorsal intersected the lower surface to study that curve, but I didn't originally have any photosthat lent themselves to studying the upper curve.

So after going back and studying the model a little more, this is what I've come up with...


_Click to enlarge_​
Looking at the drawings a little closer, this makes some since. The original one-to-one scale plans were drawn in September of 1977, while the cross-section plans are from November of 1977. So the change in Jefferies' curve might actually be his attempt to better match the progress on the studio model.

I also took some time to gather information from the AMT/ERTL Cutaway Enterprise upper primary hull structure and compared it with Jefferies' plans for the same feature. I'm trying to decide if there is enough similarities to justify an attempt to modify the AMT/ERTL Cutaway part, or if starting from scratch is the best course of action.


_Click to enlarge_​


----------



## charonjr

Shaw said:


> Yes... if you don't take into account the thicker rim and the extra stuff added for the sound effects equipment and all.
> 
> More importantly, the bridge/B/C deck structure is dead on for the original TMP studio model build, which is pretty close to the Phase II structure. They built the toy based on Probert's original plans and the stickers based on the original decals. It is actually a nice reference source (I have a ton of photos... though I haven't had the toy since 1981).


Reason I was mentioning it, was I have two or three in storage that I was planning on bashing together into a Phase 2. That would mean getting rid of the battery compartment, correcting the impulse drives, building the neck, and removing and filling all six of the engine pylon ports.

But if the rim is too thick....


----------



## Captain April

Shaw said:


> I also took some time to gather information from the AMT/ERTL Cutaway Enterprise upper primary hull structure and compared it with Jefferies' plans for the same feature. I'm trying to decide if there is enough similarities to justify an attempt to modify the AMT/ERTL Cutaway part, or if starting from scratch is the best course of action.
> 
> 
> _Click to enlarge_​


Didn't someone make a replacement B/C deck for the Cutaway, for kitbashing into the various FJ variants?


----------



## StarshipClass

I'm thinking I'm going to resign myself to using the AMT/ERTL refit saucer for the basis of the P2 for the first model. I think I'll leave the severe curve, etc. though adjusting for the other more easily modified aspects.

How does the 1/350th PL refit compare to the P2 as partially built and the plans?


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## StarshipClass

Here are some comparisons I cobbled together from various sources a couple of years ago:


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## StarshipClass

And a couple more:










Click for larger image:

http://photos.hobbytalk.com/data/500/PhaseIIComp2.jpg












Click for larger image: 

http://photos.hobbytalk.com/data/500/PhaseIIComp3.jpg


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## Shaw

Sorry I've been busy with other projects...



PerfesserCoffee said:


> I'm thinking I'm going to resign myself to using the AMT/ERTL refit saucer for the basis of the P2 for the first model. I think I'll leave the severe curve, etc. though adjusting for the other more easily modified aspects.


Yeah, I think the _close enough_ aspects of these parts warrants leaving the large scale geometry alone. Removing the surface detail, narrowing/extending the bottom plateau and sharpening up the upper rim edge are going to be more than enough work.



> How does the 1/350th PL refit compare to the P2 as partially built and the plans?


Well, I don't have one of those kits to pull curves from, but if we assume that the kit and the original TMP plans match up nicely, it would be an even better starting point (as you can tell from your comparisons). Even though I knew about the flaws in the AMT/ERTL Refit kit, I started out working from the TMP plans hoping that the kit didn't stray too far. If I was going to use the Polar Lights kit, I could have most likely done a lot more of what I'm doing now without the actual kit on hand.

The other reason (beyond price) that I wanted to use this kit was that after taking into account the re-scaling that was done for TMP, what I should end up with is a model that is at about 1/515 scale. That is about 3% off from 1/500 scale which is the scale of my last TOS Enterprise model. So I'm looking forward to having the two model side by side.




I did start in on actual model building work. I cut the end of the secondary hull off (but left the undercut), and cut out a new section from sheet styrene. When testing everything together I found that the DLM hangar doors made for a nice fit with minimal modifications.

Looking at the deflector assembly, I'm debating scratch building another one. The sensor features molded into the part might be more of a pain to remove than the part is worth, specially as I'm looking at having to replace the bole (because the TMP one is much shallower than on the Phase II model). Plus it extends out a little further than the part from the AMT/ERTL Refit. 

I also cut the top structure off the primary hull and decided to take a look at the AMT/ERTL Cutaway structure just sitting in place.








I can flatten off the top of the bridge, it is getting the B/C deck into more of an egg shape that is the headache (and might be as much work as if I started from scratch).


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## publiusr

You might try these:
http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=217527268

Now they are teardrop shaped too--but easier and cheaper to cut up


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## StarshipClass

Shaw said:


> Sorry I've been busy with other projects...


No problem! Appreciate the input and the superimposing of the plans onto your model. Great work, so far!:thumbsup:


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## 67657

Trek Ace said:


> The studio model and PL kit don't, but the AMT refit kit _does_.


Actually, the rim on the AMT refit is too thick; if that is sanded down thickness-wise, with the bottom of the rim pared down a little and the curve going to the edge corrected for the sanding, then it comes into parity.

Hopefully, it helps with the construction of this project.


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## Shaw

PerfesserCoffee said:


> Great work, so far!:thumbsup:


Thanks!



wraithverge said:


> ...
> 
> Hopefully, it helps with the construction of this project.


Well, I'm not planning on going to that much effort to match the TMP model here, but now that I've had this kit in hand (first time since the mid 90's), I'd like to get another one and build it up as the TMP Enterprise. So yeah, I'm taking note for when I give that a try.

Thanks!




Here's a shot of the secondary hull. Because I haven't finished cleaning up the cut (because the parts aren't glued together yet), I used the paper template as a stand-in.








Because I was curious as to how my (small) progress was comparing to my plans, I arranged the photos I have so far next to my earlier test assembly.


_Click to enlarge_​
For what little I've done, at least the physical model seems to be matching up with the plans.


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## StarshipClass

That looks great!! :thumbsup:


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## Shaw

Thanks!

I've started patching the holes in the primary hull left when I cut away the TMP features and started in on extending the bottom down a bit to better match Jefferies' drawings. This is where it currently stands (again with overlaid Jefferies' drawing for comparison purposes)...








I'll most likely spend some time on the secondary hull today.


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## Shaw

So even though I've already started in on the modifications, I figured I needed to do a little more pre-planning of the aft end of the secondary hull. This is essentially what I'm aiming for...


_Click to enlarge_​
... which shouldn't require too much modification of the undercut. I'll need to shorten up the replacement section of the hull I made, but that shouldn't pose a problem. I'm hoping that I can basically finish this part of the hull without the doors in place because I don't want to lose the details on them while working out the rest of the secondary hull modifications.


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## Shaw

I've started in on working out the details on how I'll be building the master nacelle...


_Click to enlarge_​
Braking it down into two major components will let me concentrate on the unique geometry of each part without the risk of compromising the other. When I'm happy with each, I'll bring them together and make a mold from them as a whole. I think this will work out nicely... but I'll find out when I actually sit down to do the work.


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## Shaw

So between a lingering cold and work, progress has been slow. But I thought I'd at least throw together a shot of the parts being worked on right now...


_Click to enlarge_​
I included my model of the TOS Enterprise as a scale reference. One of the things that makes me a little excited about this model is that it'll be approximately 1/515 scale and my TOS Enterprise is 1/500 scale (which is why the Phase II secondary hull will be just slightly shorter than the TOS secondary hull when I finish), so they should make for an interesting pair sitting next to each other when I'm finished. While I could set the secondary hull near the TOS Enterprise for a comparison, it's easier to just give the measurements of the primary hulls of the models... the TOS Enterprise's primary hull has a 10 inch diameter while the Phase II Enterprise has about a 10.62 inch diameter.


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## StarshipClass

Shaw said:


> _Click to enlarge_​



All that work makes me feel guilty that I've got a broken up old smoothie to work from.

Seriously, it's looking great! :thumbsup: That's very cool that you'll have 2 ships very close to the same scale. Will make for interesting comparisons.


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## Shaw

PerfesserCoffee said:


> All that work makes me feel guilty that I've got a broken up old smoothie to work from.


Actually, I thought about holding out for a smoothie... but I think I would have had as hard a time using it for parts as I would have a 1/350 refit. While documenting and making alterations on the kit I'm currently using, I've started thinking about how I would have build this model as the original refit (including window shopping over at DLM and Federation Models).

So yeah, I think this was probably the best kit for doing this project (for me). :thumbsup:


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## StarshipClass

Shaw said:


> So yeah, I think this was probably the best kit for doing this project (for me). :thumbsup:


I understand completely. You're doing a great job with the bumpy one.

Are you going to scribe in the P2 paneling or draw it on?


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## Shaw

PerfesserCoffee said:


> I understand completely. You're doing a great job with the bumpy one.


Thanks!



PerfesserCoffee said:


> Are you going to scribe in the P2 paneling or draw it on?


Most of it (on the primary and secondary hulls) I'm considering doing the same way as on my Republic model with white pencil lines drawn on the surface (only more pronounced on this model than the Republic). The broader segment lines on the nacelles will need to be done as a physical surface detail, and I'll scribe the one ring on the underside of the primary hull (which coincides with the inner most ring of the three rings on the TOS Enterprise) that Jefferies included in one of his drawings. If I add additional rings to the underside, I'll most likely draw them in black pencil.

Other features, like the access panel on the back of the secondary hull, will be done as decals.

But yeah, the panel lines were so finely engraved on the five and a half foot model that penciling them in in a way that makes them difficult to spot seems like the best solution for a model that is basically one-third the size of the original.



I've taken the time this week to practice building shapes from foam using the hot wire foam cutter I got. The practice element is one half of the rear section of the Phase II nacelle. But this was done, essentially, free hand. I haven't printed out my plans yet (because I haven't finished getting them exactly the way I want them), so I drew up the elements I needed using drafting tools (ellipse templates and french curves) estimating the sizes and shapes. So in the image below I was mainly seeing if (starting with a number of 1 inch foam cubes) I could cut a number of pieces to the shapes I wanted, bring them together, and make a continuous smooth surface.


_Click to enlarge_​
As this was more of a sculpting practice, I wasn't going for a perfectly flawless surface. And I only painted them gray to get them a uniform color so I could see how I did (the parts weren't primered or anything like that, just hit with a quick coat of paint).


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## StarshipClass

Shaw said:


> _Click to enlarge_​
> As this was more of a sculpting practice, I wasn't going for a perfectly flawless surface. And I only painted them gray to get them a uniform color so I could see how I did (the parts weren't primered or anything like that, just hit with a quick coat of paint).


Very impressive! So the engines will be totally new sculpts?

I'm planning on reworking the originals though there won't be much left.


----------



## Shaw

PerfesserCoffee said:


> Very impressive!


Thanks! I knew there was going to be a bit of a learning curve to this type of model building, so I'm glad I'm getting the chance to try it out here before diving into my 33 inch Enterprise build.



PerfesserCoffee said:


> So the engines will be totally new sculpts?


The nacelles were always going to be scratch built. The whole point of the model (as a study tool) requires any element that Probert didn't directly use in the designing of the TMP Refit be scratch build to learn the true details of those elements. Which is why I was only willing to use the primary and secondary hulls as short cuts... I wouldn't be learning anything new by scratch building either like I had when scratch building the primary hulls for my two previous attempts at replicating the 33 inch Enterprise (where the primary hull was the signature element of that model).

I generally take the same approach to my Star Trek research that I took to my mathematics research... that being that there is more information/understanding lost by taking the easier path (I'm one of the few people I know who hand draws topological immersions of surfaces rather than just watching a computer do it). And the active process of breaking down Jefferies' plans into detailed plans for building a model has taught me more about the Phase II Enterprise in the last couple months than I had learnt passively looking at the plans in the past 5 years.

But yeah, not only that, when I looked at the AMT/ERTL Refit nacelles, I concluded that I would need to use all four halves cut up into small elements to get two-thirds of a single nacelle (mainly because the TMP nacelle's vents aim straight out to the sides where as the Phase II vents are angled downwards)... and even then what I would have had would still include some bad geometry compromises that were done to the original kit's parts. In fact, in doing that review, I determined that I would most likely scratch build the Refit nacelles if I were to build this kit as the TMP Enterprise because the parts weren't sculpted correctly to begin with.

Actually, the two component nacelle break down I did for my plans for scratch building the Phase II nacelles would work equally well for scratch building TMP nacelles (which I might do as an exercise when I'm further along with this project).



PerfesserCoffee said:


> I'm planning on reworking the originals though there won't be much left.


Actually, because you aren't alone in wanting to take that path, I'm drawing up plans (based on scans and data collected from the AMT/ERTL Refit nacelles) that could be used for doing that type of modification. I might even do them to the nacelles I have to create a replacement part for the front quarter of the nacelle.

I'm hoping that would be helpful for others trying to replicate the Phase II Enterprise... though, as you pointed out, it'd still take a lot of reworking of the nacelles to get them to where they'd look good.

Plus it'll provide drawings of the kits nacelles for anyone wanting to use that part of my research in their builds (direct comparisons with TMP plans should show what changes could be done without scrapping the whole nacelle if some one wanted to make some minor modifications).


----------



## Shaw

So family issues have had most of my attention recently, but I have been putting a little time towards this project.

After playing around with the bridge/B/C deck structure from the AMT/ERTL Cutaway kit, I decided it would be better to start from scratch. So yesterday afternoon, I started from scratch...








I also made a little more progress on the primary hull, and decided to add the engraved ring that Jefferies included on one of his drawings (which corresponds to the inner most ring on the underside of the original Enterprise).

I took some more time on the bridge/B/C deck structure today (after letting it sit most of the day), and continued to work on refining the shapes.








Last week I started in on the aft end of the nacelle, and the results (so far) are matching up nicely with all the available reference images I have of the studio model's nacelles.








I've also been continuing with the deconstruction of the secondary hull, and have removed quite a few features so far. Until I'm finished with these modifications, there isn't any point in resurfacing the secondary hull.








So that is where things stand currently. It is slow work in that I often have to wait for things to dry/cure, by which time I'm usually occupied with other things.


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## StarshipClass

Wow! Excellent work on the b/c module! I've been dealing with that shape vs. the refit shape and something is off. I'm going to have to revisit the matter on the blue prints and comparisons.


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## Sarvek

Amazing work. I really love the attention to detail that you are giving this project. :thumbsup:


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## Shaw

Thanks guys!

Hopefully it'll all pay off in the end.

I'm hoping to get back to the drawings in the next few days (including the drawings of the AMT/ERTL Refit's nacelles for reference). What I've been working on recently only really needed what I've already drawn.

So I spent a little more time on the bridge, B/C deck structure and primary hull...








I decided to widen the bridge to better fit with Jefferies' plans. I also have started in on removing/filling in the features of the rim of the primary hull, working towards getting the upper edge sharp while keeping the lower edge rounded. Once the rim is done I can start in on the impulse engine elements (including drawings of the elements).


----------



## StarshipClass

Shaw said:


> Thanks guys!
> 
> Hopefully it'll all pay off in the end.
> 
> I'm hoping to get back to the drawings in the next few days (including the drawings of the AMT/ERTL Refit's nacelles for reference). What I've been working on recently only really needed what I've already drawn.
> 
> So I spent a little more time on the bridge, B/C deck structure and primary hull...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I decided to widen the bridge to better fit with Jefferies' plans. I also have started in on removing/filling in the features of the rim of the primary hull, working towards getting the upper edge sharp while keeping the lower edge rounded. Once the rim is done I can start in on the impulse engine elements (including drawings of the elements).


The phase II was a different ship than the movie refit in terms of scale. That becomes very apparent when you start comparing the b/c modules and bridges. I think the saucer was supposed to be the same diameter as the STOS 1701 so that the phase II is overall shorter than the original ship. That makes sense in terms of upgraded technology being more compact but apparently wasn't something the grand scale of movie making could tolerate hence the embiggened movie refit. 

The P2 refit generally involves some restructuring (especially the engineering hull) of the ship (less if some of the structural lines of the P2 are really meant to be the same as the original ship which may have been MJ's intent) and swapping out of engines but there was not as much restructuring as the refit transition required.

For a modified 1/350th refit model kit project, I'm making it pretty much P2 (without altering the refit grid lines) but with STOS engines for a transition ship similar to what has been proposed by others in the past (gif updated to reflect better pylon placement in relation to shuttle bay):












I sculpted a STOS b/c module there but it just looked too large for the jaunty lines of the hull so I decided to cut off the tail and otherwise modify it so as to go with the P2 design b/c module which is fairly close to the foot print of the refit b/c module.

Here's a visualization of the complete transition to P2 using the proposed interim design in between (also updated):


----------



## MadCap Romanian

Excellent work! I was going to post a composit picture I made a few years ago of the Phase II Enterprise to help you with this study. ...I can't find it!

Perfesser Coffee...if you're going to make the above "Transitional Ship, please consider sloping back the original thin engine pylons as I've done here : 










Originally a Franz Joseph ship designation, I decided to upgrade some of the compoinents of the ship.


----------



## StarshipClass

MadCap Romanian said:


> Perfesser Coffee...if you're going to make the above "Transitional Ship, please consider sloping back the original thin engine pylons as I've done here :


Excellent design variation! :thumbsup:

I will consider it. I need to do something--I realized upon watching the gifs that I violated the modular shuttlebay section with the pylons as I have them on the transitional design. They'll need to come forward some which will bring the engines closer to the saucer--something that I don't think I mind in terms of looks and balance but I'll have to play around some with the components to see what works.

(Corrected gif images in my post above to reflect this.)


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## MadCap Romanian

Thanx! 

I started on one of these, but had to use VERY heavy strene strips to accomplish it. Actually, if memory serves me right, I cut through a solid piece of thick sheet at an angle four times and glued the two halves together, then plugged them into the two secondary hull pylon support holes. Actually, it was a very bizzar 45 degree "L" shape that had to veer off at another odd angle from the top. I should dig up the model and take a pic of it!

I found that Phase II Composite pic I made! 









A conglamoration of model kit photos from the proposed Star Trek : Phase II. This mid 1970's series that never aired on TV became the basis for Star Trek : The Motion Picture and the other stories and characters were later re-written and became Star Trek : The Next Generation.


Hope it helps!

Wow! Nov 21, 2002! That's 10 years ago!


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## Shaw

I like the idea of showing a number of transition steps, the design evolution has a ton of potential.




PerfesserCoffee said:


> The phase II was a different ship than the movie refit in terms of scale. That becomes very apparent when you start comparing the b/c modules and bridges. I think the saucer was supposed to be the same diameter as the STOS 1701 so that the phase II is overall shorter than the original ship.
> 
> ...


Jefferies actually provided pretty detailed measurements of the Phase II Enterprise as to it's real world (fictional) dimensions. Some of these include...

*Overall Length:* 945 feet (compared to 947 feet for the TOS version)
*Primary Hull Diameter:* 460 feet (compared to 417 feet for the TOS version)
*Secondary Hull Length:* 340 feet (exactly the same as the TOS without the dish)​
The deck heights remained the same from TOS to Phase II (generally about 10 feet), and I had used Jefferies' internal arrangements from the Phase II Enterprise in mapping out the arrangements within the TOS Enterprise a number of years ago (here overlaid on my early drawings of the 11 foot model)...


_Click to enlarge_​
But the fact that the secondary hulls are the same length for both the TOS and Phase II versions of the Enterprise is also partly why I wanted to do this model at this scale... it is almost perfectly to scale with my two-thirds scale 33 inch Enterprise (which is at 1/500 scale). This study model will be just about 3% smaller than 1/500 scale (or about 1/515 scale), but close enough that they should look really cool next to each other.

Of course the model's main purpose is to help study both Jefferies' plans and Price/Loos' studio model so I can finish the plans of the Phase II Enterprise as it would have been in the series pilot episode. And it is doing that job nicely as I've learnt more about the actual intended geometry of the Phase II Enterprise building this model than I had when I had started redrawing Jefferies' plans back in 2007.

... and ending up with a cool model will be sort of a bonus.


----------



## Gregatron

Man, this all really makes me want to do a 1/1000 PII model! Or should we just call this version the "Prefit"?


Keep up the excellent work, Shaw.


----------



## Shaw

Thanks!




Gregatron said:


> Or should we just call this version the "Prefit"?


That's a great name for it! :thumbsup:




As long as you guys are thinking about _interim designs_, one of my favorite alternative designs is Vektor's Enterprise. He has a ton of really nice elements and I love the colors (wish I could do something like that with a physical model).


----------



## StarshipClass

Shaw said:


> Jefferies actually provided pretty detailed measurements of the Phase II Enterprise as to it's real world (fictional) dimensions. Some of these include...
> 
> *Overall Length:* 945 feet (compared to 947 feet for the TOS version)
> *Primary Hull Diameter:* 460 feet (compared to 417 feet for the TOS version)
> *Secondary Hull Length:* 340 feet (exactly the same as the TOS without the dish)​


Thanks for the info! I missed that somehow :freak:

That size difference does help me somewhat with parts and it certainly helps on the saucer thickness on the P2 which is a little thin if not scaled up some. But it messes up the proportions on the b/c module and bridge which are both really big on the upscaled P2. Not a huge problem, though.

The nacelle is now relatively smaller on the interim design making it look a bit more balanced IMHO:












This info makes the transitions a little more interesting:

From the STOS version to the movie refit via P2:










From STOS straight to the movie refit:










And other transitions:

From STOS to interim design to P2:










From STOS to interim design:










From STOS straight to P2:










From P2 to movie refit:


----------



## StarshipClass

Shaw said:


> As long as you guys are thinking about _interim designs_, one of my favorite alternative designs is Vektor's Enterprise. He has a ton of really nice elements and I love the colors (wish I could do something like that with a physical model).


I've always admired Vektor's work--fantastic stuff! :thumbsup:


----------



## John Duncan

WOW! I read the entire thread and his version of the E is fantastic. I have a folder full of images from that.

Thanks!!


----------



## John Duncan

It's never been easy to go from the TOS ship to the Refit. Some say it was added on to (primary and secondary hulls had diameter, etc. added on) and some say it was a nearly new ship.


----------



## eagledocf15

*Fascinating*

Great work and very interesting. Always a good debate on the transition to the Refit Enterprise. Did the size grow to add more insulation, protection, or more shield generation capability to the the E. As in the ST:TMP - "the new screens held" Sulu. Did the new equipement cause an expansion of the hull line?


----------



## StarshipClass

John Duncan said:


> It's never been easy to go from the TOS ship to the Refit. Some say it was added on to (primary and secondary hulls had diameter, etc. added on) and some say it was a nearly new ship.


Yeah, I wish the refit had been designed so that it was essentially new engines added and maybe a few feet added around the saucer section (a relatively simple add on) a new bridge and b/c module. Even the P2 refit is hard to justify as a refit vs. a new ship/total rebuild.


----------



## MadCap Romanian

Hey Perfessorcoffee - Try my modified picture here in one of those transition gif's using the original E, then the version with the straight pillars, then my pic, then the one with the new sloped pylon supports and engine followed by the TMP Enterprise. 

I remember reading in the old Mr. Scott's guide to the Enterprise (TMP-ST5) that they mentioned that the sloped struts like what I imagined on mine were initally too weak at higher warp speeds, so they had to design it with the wider "Blade" style.


----------



## StarshipClass

MadCap Romanian said:


> Hey Perfessorcoffee - Try my modified picture here in one of those transition gif's using the original E, then the version with the straight pillars, then my pic, then the one with the new sloped pylon supports and engine followed by the TMP Enterprise.
> 
> I remember reading in the old Mr. Scott's guide to the Enterprise (TMP-ST5) that they mentioned that the sloped struts like what I imagined on mine were initally too weak at higher warp speeds, so they had to design it with the wider "Blade" style.


Okay,  here we go:


----------



## StarshipClass

These drastic refits kind of remind me of George Washington's ax: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus


----------



## kenlee

PerfesserCoffee said:


> These drastic refits kind of remind me of George Washington's ax: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus


Reminds me of how the repair shop "fixed" my cousin's wrecked 1968 VW Beetle, they drilled out the rivets on the serial number plate and put the serial number on the body of an identical car that had far less damage and then fixed that one. The only original part of his car left is the serial number plate.


----------



## Garbaron

PerfesserCoffee said:


> Okay,  here we go:


You are missing one evolution step between the Phase II and the TMP Refit. Essentially the one before the Refit but with a Refit torpedo bay and warp pylons and nacelles. 
That was the desing realized by Richard Taylor (aka The Taylor design) after Phase II was cancelled. Google him go to his website and lookt at the schematics for his Enterprise ... 

What you'll find is this ship that was to be the TMP Refit

http://www.imagebam.com/image/16ed9892166385

This is obviously before Olsen got her and did the Aztec paintjob. You notice the raised detail in front of the deflector sensor caps are missing. The torpedo launcher has a different configuration most notably the mid section. The lower sensor dome is TOS style. All the open hatches we see in TMP are already there, so are the new warp nacelles. 

This is a shot of the same ship after all paint and decal work was done and she was ready to be filmed for TMP. 

http://www.imagebam.com/image/ad735392166539 

You can make out Paul Olsens Aztec work very prominently on this yet the B/C deck and bridge are still different. The B/C deck has the TOS shapes and (not seen) two docking ports to the left and right. The bridge is TOS but with added Box structure containing the bridge docking port. 

THAT was the ship that was to be shot for TMP. This was the ship the lighting guys set up for three days and when they pulled the switch everyone was at a loss of words she was that beautiful. 

Then an accident happened. Due to a leak in the air conditioning water dripped on to the bridge section. Like for the original TOS model, the bridge and BC/Deck was made of wood. The wood soaked the water like s sponge swelling in the process ruining the paint job and structure. It had to be replaced. The replace was also a redesign and changed the B/C deck and bridge to the final TMP configuration. 

What is unknown is if at the time of the water leak, the lower planetary sensor was already changed to the final TMP look or was still in its TOS style configuration.


----------



## MadCap Romanian

That is some really awesome history! 

I bet this model would be an easy conversion using the cut-away Enterprise and the TMP Enterprise from AMT.


----------



## StarshipClass

^^Excellent info and suggestion, Gabaron! Thanks! :thumbsup:

And you're right, these are beautiful shots and, IMHO, would have been better than the final solution:


----------



## MadCap Romanian

Better than the final? I'm not too sure. 

Although I'm sad for the accident on this ship, I think that the final revision actually unified the entire design into a modern, sleek looking machine. 

Also, as we all know from doing the same job twice, you get better at your work. You become "Old Hat" and this is where the perfection comes into play.


----------



## RSN

Agree with the above. For me, the Enterprise as seen in ST:TMP is my definitive Enterprise. It is sleek with just enough surface detail to make it interestig for the eye instead of just one overall color.


----------



## RSN

That pre-ST:TMP model also made it into the gum card sets!


----------



## MadCap Romanian

...as did the rock hard gum that cuts your cheek!


----------



## Captain April

MadCap Romanian said:


> That is some really awesome history!
> 
> I bet this model would be an easy conversion using the cut-away Enterprise and the TMP Enterprise from AMT.


And you'd win that bet, assuming you could find someone to take it.

For examples, there are the pics I posted upthread of my quick-n-dirty Phase II conversion, or this poor ol' thing...


----------



## StarshipClass

Nope, sorry. That's not the same critter. The parts are all ST:TMP except for the bridge module and the lower sensor dome.


----------



## Captain April

Didn't say it was the same critter. I just addressing the feasibility of using a Cutaway and Ertl Refit.


----------



## Garbaron

PerfesserCoffee said:


> ^^Excellent info and suggestion, Gabaron! Thanks! :thumbsup:
> 
> And you're right, these are beautiful shots and, IMHO, would have been better than the final solution


Well I would not say a better solution, but more in line with the TOS ship we knew. Specifically the saucer was very much TOS.
But I very much prefer the TMP Refit as seen in the movie ... sleeker lines, more refined ... Refit wins for me ... always! 

In case anyone doubts the Taylor design and the Refit are the same ship, have a look at the exposed neon tubes of the Taylor Refit and the Ent-A at Christies ... 










It's definitely the same model.


----------



## Shaw

Not to contribute too much to pulling this thread off the subject, because the bridge (modified), B/C deck structure and lower sensor dome assembly are pretty much the same as the Phase II versions, and I'll be making my parts from molds (so what I've been working on are the masters).... I've also been laying out replacement decals for the Pre-TMP refit.

The cool thing about that version is that there was a ton of cool pin striping all over the model and I'm going to try to replicate all of it. This sorta gives you an idea of what I'm talking about (I'm currently doing a quick mapping of all of it)...


----------



## RSN

Garbaron said:


> Well I would not say a better solution, but more in line with the TOS ship we knew. Specifically the saucer was very much TOS.
> But I very much prefer the TMP Refit as seen in the movie ... sleeker lines, more refined ... Refit wins for me ... always!
> 
> In case anyone doubts the Taylor design and the Refit are the same ship, have a look at the exposed neon tubes of the Taylor Refit and the Ent-A at Christies ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's definitely the same model.


The neon for the Enterprise was done by Larry Albright. I visited his workshop once and he told all about the lighting work he did on it.


----------



## StarshipClass

Shaw said:


> The cool thing about that version is that there was a ton of cool pin striping all over the model and I'm going to try to replicate all of it. This sorta gives you an idea of what I'm talking about (I'm currently doing a quick mapping of all of it)...


Yeah, I always liked the pinstriping from the artwork--would have made for a very different look for the same model:


----------



## Shaw

So I had planned on working on the front third of the nacelle today, but I realized that I didn't have that much thick sheet styrene left. Because I want to make sure the front grill area is perfect, I didn't want to run the risk of not finding styrene of the same thickness (I bought this stuff 5 years ago) in case I run out. On both the front grills on the nacelles and on the grills on the pylons are going to be inset by cutting out the shape of the openings in one sheet and covering the back with another. And I want to make sure that those openings have a uniform depth for all of them and that they are deeper than the thickness of the corrugated styrene I plan on making the actual grill parts from.


What I did work on today was the dorsal. Because there wasn't any special features, I knew I would be able to work with what I had and that I wouldn't need backup styrene in case of mistakes. So here is my progress so far...








It is just sitting in place, I won't do any type of final attachment until I've finished getting the primary hull's surface perfect.


----------



## StarshipClass

Okay, Garbaron, this one's for you:


----------



## Garbaron

Thanks. Looks great!

I think this is the first time we actually see the evolution like this, so this is imo very valuable. It shows that the Refit we know was an evolution in design that began with the TOS and evolved to the Refit via various design iterations. Especially the last step before the Refit, the Taylor design and the jump to the Refit illustrates that the Refit indeed is the more refined variant. Everything starts to make sense and the lines and shapes fit perfectly.


----------



## MadCap Romanian

Agreed! Excellent work!


----------



## RSN

But in the "Star Trek" timeline, that was established by those involved with the production of the films and TV shows, it indicates that the Enterprise refit was done following the end of the 5 year mission of the TV series and it took a year and a half to complete. There were no "interim" design indicated in the series or the films. To me she just went from what we saw on the show to ST:TMP. Stripped down to the baisic internal "bones" and rebuilt out from there.


----------



## Shaw

The plan...

Yes, there is a plan. You'd think that this being another Enterprise once all the parts are made, the assembly, painting and decal application should follow the same process that I've done on my last three models. Well, this one is a little different in that, even though the secondary hull started as a kit part, there isn't a well defined plug-in for the support pylons to go into. Definitely nothing that will work as nicely as how my TOS models do (none of the supports on either the first Enterprise, second Enterprise or Republic are glued to their secondary hulls). 

This left me with a problem. I don't like handling these models whole while painting and applying decals to them because there is just too much of a chance of accidents happening. But at the same time I need to make sure that the alignment is correct before I start in on the finishing work in case adjustments are needed.

So the solution I am planning on in this case is the cradle at the top of the support pylons (which isn't part of the nacelle master). By laying out the model upside-down on a flat surface (with a hole cut out for the bulge on top of the primary hull), I need only get the upper edge of the primary hull and the cradles at the end of the supports to align correctly. Once that is done, I can permanently attach the supports to the secondary hull, and finish the model from there. The nacelles will be attached last, with their alignment coming from the cradles. It isn't as nice as not having anything to get in my way while painting, but it is way better than working with a whole model.

Another issue that needs addressing (in the next week or so) is the attachment point for the display stand. As most of you guys know from having worked with the AMT/ERTL Refit, there is a big hole in the bottom of the secondary hull. That is going to get filled no matter what. I was originally thinking of putting the attachment point where it is on the studio model, but considering how heavy the primary hull is and how light the nacelles are going to be, I've decided to put the attachment point in about the same place as my TOS models (pretty close to the front of the secondary hull).

One question I know is going to pop up is _where is the vertical edge at the front base of the dorsal?_ The answer is... it has to go on close to the end, and it won't be extending all the way down anyways.

In Jefferies' plans, if it extended all the way down, the part below the weapons assembly would be covered by a thicker wedge anyways, so the initial vertical part doesn't need to extend down that far. And, as it turns out, it can't extend down beyond the weapons assembly anyways. The plans for the weapons assembly has a funnel opening that extends back further than the forward edge of the vertical wedge. So I would have had to cut out a spot along the front anyways.

So I plan on only adding the top third of the wedge (which should look like part of the dorsal), and then the weapons assembly will fit under that and around the front base of the dorsal.

I'm not sure how they were going to deal with that issue on the studio model, unless they were planning on cutting out an opening in that part of their dorsal. Of course, this is the point of building this model, had I not had to deal with this, I wouldn't have known that this was something that was going to need addressing on the studio model. I'm racking up quite a list of questions thanks to this build. It is turning out to be a very helpful tool for doing research.

Oh, and I made a little more progress with the dorsal last night...








With a temporary plug to the front of the hole at the top of the secondary hull, I can put the primary hull, dorsal and secondary hull together and they align quite nicely. Unfortunately, the only way to do that is by holding it together with both hands, so no pictures of that. Once I start gluing parts of the secondary hull together, it should be able to sit assembled showing how well these elements work together.


----------



## StarshipClass

RSN said:


> But in the "Star Trek" timeline, that was established by those involved with the production of the films and TV shows, it indicates that the Enterprise refit was done following the end of the 5 year mission of the TV series and it took a year and a half to complete. There were no "interim" design indicated in the series or the films. To me she just went from what we saw on the show to ST:TMP. Stripped down to the baisic internal "bones" and rebuilt out from there.


You're right, of course. This .gif movie was just done as an exercise showing some possible interim designs that may have occurred as refits over the years to other vessels. It's a way of showing a possible _design_ evolution in the Trek universe that would not have occurred to any one ship but might have occurred to various others.


----------



## RSN

PerfesserCoffee said:


> You're right, of course. This .gif movie was just done as an exercise showing some possible interim designs that may have occurred as refits over the years to other vessels. It's a way of showing a possible _design_ evolution in the Trek universe that would not have occurred to any one ship but might have occurred to various others.


Got it! :thumbsup:


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## StarshipClass

Garbaron said:


> Thanks. Looks great!
> 
> I think this is the first time we actually see the evolution like this, so this is imo very valuable. It shows that the Refit we know was an evolution in design that began with the TOS and evolved to the Refit via various design iterations. Especially the last step before the Refit, the Taylor design and the jump to the Refit illustrates that the Refit indeed is the more refined variant. Everything starts to make sense and the lines and shapes fit perfectly.





MadCap Romanian said:


> Agreed! Excellent work!


Thanks! And thanks for the suggestions! It turned out better than I thought it would. I especially like the way the Taylor version morphs into the final version.


----------



## MadCap Romanian

Now you just need to slow it down a bit so we can enjoy it more!


----------



## StarshipClass

Slowed down:


----------



## MadCap Romanian

Nice! Now my brain can actually "Digest" what it's seeing!


----------



## StarshipClass

MadCap Romanian said:


> Nice! Now my brain can actually "Digest" what it's seeing!


Yeah, I began to understand what you were saying when I started slowing down the frames. I slowed down the first and final frames more than the rest to give an idea of the "evolution story" starting and ending a little better.


----------



## Steve H

Catching up on some of the amazing stuff, I've had a thought. The pinstriping. That WOULD be a neat look and an interesting thing to do. I can't help but wonder if that was considered as a way to 'break up' the otherwise plain features of the ship for the film, akin to the 'artificial shading' used on the TV model, and the Aztec paint scheme did away with those concerns? Didn't need the pinstripes all over because now the hull was visually more 'interesting' and 'complex', fit for a giant screen.

It's just a thought.


----------



## StarshipClass

Steve H said:


> Catching up on some of the amazing stuff, I've had a thought. The pinstriping. That WOULD be a neat look and an interesting thing to do. I can't help but wonder if that was considered as a way to 'break up' the otherwise plain features of the ship for the film, akin to the 'artificial shading' used on the TV model, and the Aztec paint scheme did away with those concerns? Didn't need the pinstripes all over because now the hull was visually more 'interesting' and 'complex', fit for a giant screen.
> 
> It's just a thought.


I'm not sure about the pinstriping and the Aztec pattern on the 1701 but I suspect they would have gone with both if they hadn't gone with the various other colors added to certain portions of the ship. (The 1701 really became quite colorful during the last revision. ) There is a picture of the interim version 1701 with Aztecking before the decals and pinstriping were added.

But you may be right in that the artists' impressions may have used the pinstriping to add something to the look. There was a lot of white otherwise.


Pinstriping, to a lesser degree, was used on other ships even with the self-lighting and Aztecking--most notably, the Reliant.


----------



## Garbaron

No, no. The red pinstripping was on the Tayloer design, which already had Paul Olsens Aztec work on it:










Oi noted the red pinstips some time ago.


----------



## StarshipClass

Garbaron said:


> No, no. The red pinstripping was on the Tayloer design, which already had Paul Olsens Aztec work on it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oi noted the red pinstips some time ago.


Dang, you're right! I didn't see that when looking for pinstriping in that photo before--_and _I didn't remember that the decals _were _on it. Duh! :freak: That will teach me--I hope!

Thanks for pointing that out! I am definitely _not _an expert on that interim version. :wave:

I really want to see someone do that version.


----------



## Captain April

Garage kit makers, you have your instructions!


----------



## Gregatron

I noticed a lot of this stuff many years ago! Note that, on the final version of the Refit, the pinstriping left around the saucer RCS areas doesn't fully surround/enclose the yellow areas, since the original pinstriping which circumnavigated the saucer rim (parallel to the sensor bands) and linked the RCS areas was removed:

http://www.modelermagic.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/KG_MD_1701A_STUDIO_MODEL-045.jpg


As with the Prefit/Phase II design, I've often wondered why there isn't a conversion kit for this variant. It would be so easy! 

A few parts, and a decal sheet. Maybe with alternate "U.S.S. Tikopai" markings, since the old SHIPS OF THE STAR FLEET book designated this variant as "Tikopai"-class, with an "NCC-1800" registry (a wink and nod to the early TMP designs).


http://www.tacticalstarshipcombat.com/FASA/sds/federation_tikopai.htm


----------



## GKvfx

Wanted to jump in here real quick and commend Shaw for his research and picking a version that isn't quite complete in its documentation and sticking with it. (I've always liked the teaser poster version myself and may dig out a 1/350 Refit and take the Dremel to it......)

Not to derail the post, but -


Garbaron said:


> You are missing one evolution step between the Phase II and the TMP Refit..........
> 
> .........Then an accident happened. Due to a leak in the air conditioning water dripped on to the bridge section. Like for the original TOS model, the bridge and BC/Deck was made of wood. The wood soaked the water like s sponge swelling in the process ruining the paint job and structure. It had to be replaced. The replace was also a redesign and changed the B/C deck and bridge to the final TMP configuration.
> 
> What is unknown is if at the time of the water leak, the lower planetary sensor was already changed to the final TMP look or was still in its TOS style configuration.


The timing isn't quite right on that tale. The Refit *was* pretty much done by the time RA&A and Paramount parted ways. It was built, lit, painted - pretty much everything save for the decals. The photos from the gum card set, as well as a host of early imagery used by Paramount all came from early lighting tests on the model. (The wedges Garbaron references were from earlier testing, but of the same model.) And the South Bend toy was based on this version.

Late in 1978, Doug Trumbull came in and revised the concept a little further, introducing the "self lit" version. His changes required revising the Bridge, planetary dome on the bottom of the saucer, and the addition of the spotlights. This work was started in January of 1979. I'm going to surmise that the changes wrecked a good portion of the paint and when it was repainted, the pinstriping was deleted. (I hadn't noticed that detail.....thanks.)

The airconditioner incident (which Mark Stetson still cringes about when he tells the tale) occurred later in the summer of '79 when they were filming the miniature after the new bridge and details had been added. It was hot, they left the A/C on, worked on V'ger in another part of the building while they waited for some film to come back......and presto - disaster. The reason he cringes is because the piece had to be fixed immediately since they were in the midst of filming the Enterprise and he wound up staying up for 36 hours straight to remake the Bridge with the rest of the crew.

So......yes the A/C thing happened. But it didn't prompt the change from the MJ/RT Bridge design.

I have some more wedges which I will dig up and post. I though I posted them a few years ago...... maybe someone saved them.

Gene


----------



## Garbaron

Ahhh ... thanks for clearing this up. My "timing" was based on the view/recollections of Paul Olsen, who told me this a mere two weeks ago. But he admitted he was not sure if the changes to the design where done while he was painting the ship or afterwards. At least from some of the new pictures on his site (not public anymore due to his book) you could see they where still painting her while the planetary sensor was changed from the TOS version to the TMP variant. HE vehemently said the ship was done and locked (with the TOS bridge) when he left to help with the V'Ger FX. 
So again. Thx for straightening out the kinks in my timeline.


----------



## StarshipClass

Captain April said:


> Garage kit makers, you have your instructions!


A new b/c deck and bridge module, decals, lower sensor dome--what else would be needed to make the transition?


----------



## Gregatron

PerfesserCoffee said:


> A new b/c deck and bridge module, decals, lower sensor dome--what else would be needed to make the transition?


New torpedo tubes, and a new set of the three sensor bits surrounding the deflector dish housing (or a new housing altogether).


----------



## Shaw

I'm getting the feeling that the actual build process is most likely too much information, so I'm skipping past internal aspects of the model that, when finished, no one is ever going to see again. I'll stick to progress shots that show how the model is shaping up and starting to look more and more like the TOS Enterprise rather than the TMP Enterprise.

I finished up on the dorsal as much as I could without having completed the secondary hull modifications.








And I've spent the last few days finishing the removal of TMP features from the secondary hull. I extended the channels that the original support pylons when into (because they were at the correct angle for the Phase II Enterprise) and started gluing the major pieces together (right now the two sides are whole). After a few more internal structural things are done, I'll glue the two sides together and work on the hangar deck and fan tail.

I also primered the primary hull so I could get a feel for where I was at in finishing it off.

Here are some of the major pieces set together (including a couple of the beginning pieces of the impulse engines)...








I've been working on the nacelle supports... mainly how to build them. While overall they will be done pretty much like the dorsal (which took a little more than a day to get where I'm at now), making sure that I correctly represent Jefferies' vents is what is slowing things down (plus I have to deal with similar vents on the nacelles). Part way through this design process I realized that I had better make sure that the major dimensions I am planning on using for the supports actually work. So I made foamcore board stand-ins to make sure that the final supports will be about where I need them (I can make small adjustments during the final assembly, but if they are too far off I'd have to rebuild them).

So here are some shots of the model assembled with the stand-in supports...


----------



## StarshipClass

I think you nailed the b/c and bridge module! Looking good everywhere else as well!


----------



## Garbaron

I must say I love seeing the PhaseII Refit coming to live! 
Keep it up.


----------



## Shaw

Thanks!

I'm having a lot of fun watching it take shape, which is why it has been easier for me to work on it even when my schedule is pretty full.

I started the impulse engines yesterday, and started filling and shaping them today...








I also cut out a lower sensor dome. I'll be shortening it and making a base for it, but even in it's current state it seems to fit pretty nicely...








I've also been doing some more sanding of the primary hull and should get around to hitting it with another coat of primer tomorrow night. I'm hoping to have the secondary hull interior finished enough to close it up by Saturday so I can finally get the hangar elements assembled. After that, filling and sanding of the secondary hull can start up.


----------



## Garbaron

I love how this is coming along, the first time someone truly tries to recreate the P2 Refit. 
Kudos to you.


----------



## Captain April




----------



## MadCap Romanian

Ok, so at first I didn't get what Captain April was talking about with that video, then I scrolled up and LOL'ed!


----------



## Shaw

Put some more time in on it this weekend... mostly on the interior of the secondary hull. I should be closing it up soon and then starting in on the hangar area (most of the parts I need for this are ready to go).

Reassembled the model to see how my progress was looking...


----------



## Shaw

Today I finally got everything I needed to get done on the inside of the secondary hull in place and closed it up. I then attached all the hangar/fantail elements.








I can now start to sculpt the secondary hull surface and finish shaping the lower edge of the dorsal to match.


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## 1701ALover

I know it was on the original design for the Phase II Enterprise, but I don't get the reasoning for the "notch" out of the aft upper end of the nacelle pylons. It just looks odd to me.


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## Shaw

The thing to keep in mind is that Jefferies designed the original Enterprise under strict time constraints. In fact, Roddenberry forcing him to redo the design at a larger scale let Jefferies go back and fix/change some additional elements, which lead to a sleeker design. When he was brought back to redesign the Enterprise for Phase II, one of the things he wanted to address was the nacelle support pylons. Looking at his designs, you can see that he wanted to echo the dorsal pylon's shape. When the dorsal was modified with the phaser assembly, that altered it's profile and Jefferies decided to modify the nacelle supports in a complimentary way.

Here are some illustrations emphasizing just the pylon elements of the design over time...








Probert later went back to the nacelle supports without the notch missing for the TMP design.


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## 1701ALover

Shaw said:


> The thing to keep in mind is that Jefferies designed the original Enterprise under strict time constraints. In fact, Roddenberry forcing him to redo the design at a larger scale let Jefferies go back and fix/change some additional elements, which lead to a sleeker design. When he was brought back to redesign the Enterprise for Phase II, one of the things he wanted to address was the nacelle support pylons. Looking at his designs, you can see that he wanted to echo the dorsal pylon's shape. When the dorsal was modified with the phaser assembly, that altered it's profile and Jefferies decided to modify the nacelle supports in a complimentary way.
> 
> Here are some illustrations emphasizing just the pylon elements of the design over time...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Probert later went back to the nacelle supports without the notch missing for the TMP design.


Okay...I can kinda see that. I guess - to my eye, anyway - it looks unfinished with the notch out...like someone forgot to attach the last piece of the puzzle, you know? Oh, well...proceed. I've been following this thread with great fascination to see the finished product!


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## StarshipClass

Shaw said:


> The thing to keep in mind is that Jefferies designed the original Enterprise under strict time constraints. In fact, Roddenberry forcing him to redo the design at a larger scale let Jefferies go back and fix/change some additional elements, which lead to a sleeker design. When he was brought back to redesign the Enterprise for Phase II, one of the things he wanted to address was the nacelle support pylons. Looking at his designs, you can see that he wanted to echo the dorsal pylon's shape. When the dorsal was modified with the phaser assembly, that altered it's profile and Jefferies decided to modify the nacelle supports in a complimentary way.
> 
> Here are some illustrations emphasizing just the pylon elements of the design over time...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Probert later went back to the nacelle supports without the notch missing for the TMP design.


I've always liked that notch being there but never understood whence it came. Thanks for pointing out and explaining that. :thumbsup:


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## RSN

Probert kept the notch look by placing a vent there on the final film. Against a space background, the impression of the notch is still there.


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## Shaw

RSN said:


> Probert kept the notch look by placing a vent there on the final film. Against a space background, the impression of the notch is still there.


Which was a good compromise.


I've put some more time in on both the primary and secondary hulls. On the primary hull I've mainly been working on sharpening up the upper edge. With the secondary hull, I'm in the beginning stages of removing the last of the smaller surface details from the kit parts, erasing the edges where the new parts were added and resculpting the fantail/undercut.








Because that involved a lot of puttying and waiting, most of the time that I've dedicated to this model over the last few days has been in cutting out the pieces for the nacelle support pylons, and working out how they'll go together. Because the openings for the grills are close to the back edge of the supports, I when out and bought some thin styrene for backing them. I also bought the corrugated styrene I'll be using for the grill work on the supports and forward grills on the nacelles. The center indentations on the nacelles will most likely be done using individual strips of styrene to make that grill pattern.

Right now the supports are a collection of pieces of styrene, but hopefully by Monday or Tuesday I'll have something worth photographing for you guys.


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## StarshipClass

^^Wow!  Great work--you're nailing those contours down really hard!


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## Shaw

Thanks!

Even though it has been slow going, the more work I put into the primary and secondary hulls, the more they are starting to feel _TOS_-like.




So this is a good example of why I'm building a study model before attempting a full set of plans of the Phase II Enterprise. Similar to how the Price/Loos model didn't follow Jefferies' plans on the dorsal pylon, the model doesn't seem to have followed the plans for the nacelle support pylons either. Oddly enough, the model's supports are more like the TMP studio model's in overall geometry.

I'll draw up some comparison diagrams of what Jefferies' had designed with what Price/Loos built (including some photos) when I get the chance in the next couple days. But what started out as a project to do one set of plans is definitely going to end up as two distinct sets of plans of the Phase II Enterprise.

I taped together the parts for one of the supports (with a quickly cut stand-in grill, the final grills most likely won't be made until I'm ready to paint the model) to see how they worked. I've ended up with the shapes I was going for, so I'm pretty confident that I'm on the right track with these. I won't finalize the top or bottom edges until after I have the primary hull, dorsal and secondary hull together as a single piece (so I can make adjustments in the overall alignment of the model).

Here is how the taped together support looks (and a comparison with the original kit's support)...


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## Captain April

If you ever meet Dave Merriman and he says you're still just a "kit assembler" and not a true model builder, feel free to punch him right in the mouth.


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## Chuck_P.R.

Captain April said:


> If you ever meet Dave Merriman and he says you're still just a "kit assembler" and not a true model builder, feel free to punch him right in the mouth.



I hear Dave is really a nice guy who just has all of you fooled.

He's just a sweet ole' cream puff of a guy who wants to retire comfortably. Who doesn't? 

His nefarious plot is to get enough of you riled up so that he can fund a comfortable retirement, solely by going from modeling contests and events and setting up dunking booths.

Think he's built up a big enough customer base yet? :tongue:


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## Captain April

Not quite, but he's getting there.

Maybe he could sell a few pinatas of himself at Wonderfest to boost that income stream.


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## Shaw

I doubt he'd be impressed by anything I do... I get the impression that he doesn't much care for the efforts of other people (or at least that is what he is attempting to make us believe about him at any rate).



I spent most of this week working on the front half of the nacelle master. I cut out the many pieces that make up the front third and glued them together. I've then cut some styrene tubing in half to make the lengthwise contours of the top and bottom of the nacelle. Before I cut those to their final length I tested their fit with the front third section and a stand-in section of cardboard tubing (covered in packing tape so I can sculpt the ends of the top and bottom sections later on without them sticking to the tubing) to make sure everything was coming together correctly.

Below is another shot of the test assembled nacelle pylon support (this time shown at the approximate angle you'd see it at from the side), the front third section of the nacelle by itself and a couple shots of the test assembly of the front half of the nacelle master.








I still need to get to the center section with the grill work. Once that is done, I need to graft it to the rear section of the nacelle I made earlier to complete the back half of the nacelle master. It is slow going, but I think what I'll end up with is a really nice looking nacelle which (hopefully) will yield two nice nacelles for the model.


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## Steve H

Shaw said:


> The thing to keep in mind is that Jefferies designed the original Enterprise under strict time constraints. In fact, Roddenberry forcing him to redo the design at a larger scale let Jefferies go back and fix/change some additional elements, which lead to a sleeker design. When he was brought back to redesign the Enterprise for Phase II, one of the things he wanted to address was the nacelle support pylons. Looking at his designs, you can see that he wanted to echo the dorsal pylon's shape. When the dorsal was modified with the phaser assembly, that altered it's profile and Jefferies decided to modify the nacelle supports in a complimentary way.
> 
> Here are some illustrations emphasizing just the pylon elements of the design over time...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Probert later went back to the nacelle supports without the notch missing for the TMP design.



THAT makes a ton of sense! Visual aids to the rescue! 

No, really, I can see the balance, it's almost like a visual diagonal load bearing beam. Probably a poor explanation but the best I can do. 

It's quite elegant.


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## Shaw

Yeah, it is cool to see how Jefferies worked this stuff out. even though he couldn't devote his full attention to the Phase II Enterprise, I think he was less rushed on this design than with the original Enterprise... and took things like this into account.





Started assembling the nacelle support pylons yesterday, and I did a test assembly to make sure that they are going to reach the (approximate) height that I'll need for everything to align correctly. This is most of the pieces just set together, so some things aren't in their exact positions... but it does let me know where the supports are relative to the primary hull.








And that is pretty much where I was hoping they would be.


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## Fozzie

Great stuff, Shaw. Really nice to see this design in 3D and not just as a drawing on a page.


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## Shaw

Thanks!

It has been fun watching the elements take form, and seeing the model get closer and closer to the stage where we got most of our photos of the studio model. I'm excited to see where it goes from there (as things like this are often better in real life than as imagined... which I hope is the case here).




I've made some more progress on the nacelles... mostly gluing the larger pieces together and then trimming them down to where I needed them. Here is a shot of the nacelle with the rear quarter taped into place (but without any center section), as it should be aligned with the rest of the model when finished (I bumped the model since the last shots, so the overall alignment got messed up a little), and a comparison progress shot from about 3 weeks ago.








It all seems to be coming together as planned... no major surprises or anything so far. Of course I still need to make molds of the bridge/B/C deck and nacelle master, which should be interesting.


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## StarshipClass

Shaw said:


>


Truly a thing of beauty! Coming together _very _nicely!


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## Shaw

Thanks!


Made a little more progress since yesterday, mainly sculpting some of the areas of the front sections of the nacelle.








Hopefully I'll have the nacelle done within the next week or two, which means I need to go back to the bridge/B/C deck part and finish it up (as these are the two areas I'll be making molds of when their done).

I still need to get the bridge to the shape I want, add the turbo lifts and then attach them to the B/C deck. I'll most likely not spend any more time on the bottom edge of the B/C deck because that area will need to be cleaned/shaped on the final part to smoothly match the primary hull's curves.

I've been slowly plugging away at the primary hull, and I'm pretty close to where I wanted it. Once I reach that point I'll attach the dorsal. The secondary hull is coming along nicely, but I still need to cut off the front ring (which isn't circular) and replace it (that part was actually made a few weeks ago). Once I'm happy with the secondary hull's surface, I'll attach it to the primary hull and dorsal. And with those three pieces together I should be able to make any final modification/adjustments to the nacelle support pylons.

So that is the overall plan going forward.

Now that I'm starting to get close to finishing the nacelle master, I've had to start deciding which details to include. I've ruled out any details that cross the center line because there will be a seam there I'll have to deal with. But one element, a small rectangular piece on the front section of the nacelle has been giving me trouble ever since I first started studying the Phase II Enterprise. It seemed like it was only on one side of the nacelle, and at first I figured that what ever side I picked (inboard or outboard) it would be reflected on the opposite nacelle. After studying every drawing I have of Jefferies and every reference photo I have of the Price/Loos models I've reached the conclusion that it is on the left (port) side of both nacelles (both port and starboard).

So I'll be adding it to the master...


_Click to enlarge_​

It is a very interesting element for Jefferies to use to break the symmetry of the design with. And for the longest time I was sure I was missing something that would show that it should be on either the inboard or outboard, or both. This definitely wasn't the conclusion I had expected to reach.

The next element I plan on starting in on will be the sensor platforms around the deflector assembly. While I'd like to have all the same detailing that was supposed to be there on the studio model, I may need to simplify the design a little for the scale I'm working at (approximately one-third scale to the studio model). This is what I plan on building...


_Click to enlarge_​
It should be interesting... specially since I need to make the part three times.


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## StarshipClass

Shaw said:


> Now that I'm starting to get close to finishing the nacelle master, I've had to start deciding which details to include. I've ruled out any details that cross the center line because there will be a seam there I'll have to deal with. But one element, a small rectangular piece on the front section of the nacelle has been giving me trouble ever since I first started studying the Phase II Enterprise. It seemed like it was only on one side of the nacelle, and at first I figured that what ever side I picked (inboard or outboard) it would be reflected on the opposite nacelle. After studying every drawing I have of Jefferies and every reference photo I have of the Price/Loos models I've reached the conclusion that it is on the left (port) side of both nacelles (both port and starboard).
> 
> So I'll be adding it to the master...
> 
> 
> _Click to enlarge_​
> 
> It is a very interesting element for Jefferies to use to break the symmetry of the design with. And for the longest time I was sure I was missing something that would show that it should be on either the inboard or outboard, or both. This definitely wasn't the conclusion I had expected to reach.


*Interesting detail from a few different perspectives:*

*1. Special effects shots where the detail is visible would give away which side it is being shot from.* If there were stock footage that needed to be flipped and no lettering were visible that would give it away, there would still be this detail on the engines. Maybe not a biggie, but still something they'd have to consider and a bit of a disadvantage from that viewpoint. Phase II would have had a huge reliance on using expensive special effects shots over and over as stock footage in order to keep costs down--much as the original series did. The more flexible the footage, the more costs could have been kept down.

*2. It makes a theoretical sense in the ST universe indicating that each engine, as opposed to the original engines from the TV series, is identical *whichever side of the ship they are placed--much more economical in terms of production/repair/replacement. Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your perspective, they went back to the left and right engine concept with the refit design for ST:TMP. I think the engines being identical is a very ingenious design ethos and the ST universe would have benefited from it.

*3. Was it a detail that was meant to be on both sides of the engines but hadn't yet been added to the other side? * Or perhaps, like some plans, there is a note to include it on the other side rather than drawing it on? Some of the plans for this and other MJ designs are not complete in every detail in addition to being preliminary plans in some cases that don't reflect the latest improvements. It's a small, simple detail so, if it were meant to be on the other side, why didn't he go ahead and draw it on? Also, surely MJ was consulted during the building of the Phase II ship and it was a detail he included on the same side of each engine. There were some notes from the period indicating that some changes might have been made to the model (lighting effect added and such) but unless documentation were to be discovered that explicitly states otherwise, _I agree that it needs to be on just the one side as indicated in the drawings. _If nothing else, it's an interesting little tidbit to be pointed out.


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## Captain April

The pictures showing the model with two port engines show the model only partially finished, with two identical nacelles only being a temporary condition, for the sake of test fitting on the stand and planning out setups with the spacedock model. The nacelles were always planned to be "mirrored."


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## Shaw

Yeah... and those photos did a great job of keeping me from seeing this over the past five and a half years. Here is the thing... I stopped using them as a reference for this aspect.

The model was essentially finished before being abandon, but those test assembly photos are from way earlier in the construction process. The long feature on the rear nacelle is always on the outboard side (mirrored) of both nacelles (even on the final model), but the feature on the front is only on one side of both nacelles, the left (port) side. Even after seeing that, I thought it might have been a mistake/oversight on the part of Price/Loos, but then I went back and looking at Jefferies drawings again...








It wasn't a mistake or an oversight on the final model, it was how Jefferies wanted it to be... and how the final version of the studio model was built.

The other thing to remember is that the final molds for the nacelles for the studio model were used to make the Planet Hollywood models (the alterations to make the nacelles sorta TMP-like were done after the parts were made). And sure enough, the feature on the front is echoed for both the port and starboard nacelles but the rear feature is mirrored. 

And the original molds are still like that today (two unique sets of molds, one for each nacelle).





So after making a little more progress today I decided to take some more test assembly shots (I can't help it, I'm curious as to how the model will eventually turn out)...


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## Garbaron

I really like where this is going. 
Superb job, keep it up!


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## charonjr

I have some of the Southgate toys. I think I'll use your build as a guide to,make a complete one.


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## Shaw

Garbaron said:


> I really like where this is going.
> Superb job, keep it up!


Thanks!



charonjr said:


> I have some of the Southgate toys. I think I'll use your build as a guide to,make a complete one.


Yeah, the Southbend toys are a great starting point because they include some nice elements from Probert's original design (which was more like Jefferies' design).



Quick update...

I made progress on the middle third of the nacelle today. If everything continues to work out nicely, I'll join it to the rear section I made towards the end of November. I've got some more puttying and sanding to do on the newer parts, then I'll give them all a primer pass to see where they stand before Monday.

I figured I'd show something a little different today... the Enterprise as she actually is right now, a collection of parts.


_Click to enlarge_​
So yeah, right now there is very little that is whole. All of the parts are being worked on until I'm happy with them, and the first two major parts to come together will be the primary hull and dorsal. The dorsal is in good shape, but I still have some things I want to address on the primary hull.


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## 1701ALover

I'm eternally impressed by those who have the gift for scratch-building things like this. I can't wait to see this finished!

I don't remember if you mentioned it before (and I'm too tired and lazy, right now, to go back through the whole thread again), but are you planning on creating kits from this?


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## publiusr

The underside of that saucer is as smooth as glass.


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## Shaw

1701ALover said:


> I'm eternally impressed by those who have the gift for scratch-building things like this. I can't wait to see this finished!


Thanks!



1701ALover said:


> I don't remember if you mentioned it before (and I'm too tired and lazy, right now, to go back through the whole thread again), but are you planning on creating kits from this?


I've thought about making the bridge/B/C deck and nacelles available because those are parts I'll be making molds of. The two key factors are how well the parts turn out and how well the molds of them work. If it seems like I have to do a lot of work to get the cast pieces to work correctly, then I think that might be too much to ask of someone buying them. I could see if someone who does this type of thing wants to do molds and castings (and maybe even selling) of the parts if there is that level of interest.

Plus I'm not sure if people will want this version of the nacelles. While there is a lot of the Price/Loos model filling in the blanks, the overall design of the nacelle follows Jefferies plans. I might go back and make a second nacelle master later on that fully reflects the look and feel of the studio model's nacelles.

Part of the reason I've gone with Jefferies designs over what was done on the studio model is that I hope to be able to examine the studio model's parts in the near future. With that information I could make very accurate plans (and parts).




publiusr said:


> The underside of that saucer is as smooth as glass.


Not quite yet... but I'm hoping to get there. :thumbsup:






To everyone... thank you so much for the encouragement! It really makes a big difference knowing that people are interested in this project.


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## Shaw

I had hoped to get more done over the last weekend, but I ran out of primer. Here is another set of test assembly images (mainly to check overall alignment)... 








And this set is with the model upside down so it isn't having to fight gravity (which better shows how the primary hull, dorsal and secondary hull fit together)...








Based on what I've gathered from these tests, I think everything should eventually come together without a significant amount of work. Beside being curious about how it'll look, I want to make sure that before I invest a ton of time finishing up any of the parts that they'll actually come together as planned. If I can catch assembly issues early, I can fix or rebuild problem parts before I've spent too much of my time on them.

I really wanted to see (and show) how the nacelle elements are coming along, but without primer it is hard to tell. At any rate, here is the major pieces of the nacelle sitting and waiting for me to get back to them...








And that is about where I'm currently at. I should have some more free time over the next few days, so I hope to make some more progress on the nacelle during that time.


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## Shaw

I was able to get primer and some styrene strips (for the indented side grills of the nacelle) yesterday and gave some of the nacelle parts their first primer pass to see where things stand. I'm about where I thought I'd be (which means I still have a long ways to go) but having everything a single color helps point out where I've actually gotten pretty close to what I wanted and what areas actually need more attention.

Because the rocket tubing that I'm using for the middle section of the nacelle isn't coated on the inside, I hit the indented sections with a Krylon clear coat. I'll most likely glue those parts in place later today and start in on sculpting the tapered part of the indent towards the rear. I've also made accommodations for the gaps/seams that Jefferies had drawn in his plans for this part of the nacelle.

Below is a test assembly of some of the nacelle elements, including a test forward grill I quickly cut out to see how the thickness of the corrugated styrene would work with what I had built.








Once I'm happy with the middle section of the nacelle, I'll cut down the rear section and graft them together. I don't want to do this too early because making the rear section was way harder than making the middle section.

I also spent some more time on the primary and secondary hulls, but the progress on those doesn't really show in photographs of the parts.


----------



## Shaw

So I've been working on a lot of little things that don't tend to be interesting enough for updates (and don't lend themselves to nice progress images). I did start attaching the rear nacelle to the middle section and I attached the bridge to the B/C deck. I'll most likely start in on the turbo lifts later today or tomorrow and then give the whole part a primer coat to see how it is turning out.








I've also been working on the platforms for the tops of the nacelle support pylons, trying to get their shape correct (I'm basing them off the Price/Loos model because Jefferies' plans were a little short on details for them). 

I'm hoping that I'm within a few days of finishing the work on the primary hull so I can finally attach the dorsal to it. The upper rim edge is almost where I want it, and I'm pretty close to being happy with the under side surface, and I've finished everything that needed to be done on the dorsal as a separate piece.

There is still a lot of work to be done on the secondary hull, just not anything really interesting in the immediate future.


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## Garbaron

I love those nacelles.
They are coming along really great!


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## StarshipClass

Garbaron said:


> I love those nacelles.
> They are coming along really great!


Yeah, Shaw, you've really broken those shapes down to their basic components. I never fully understood how they fit together until seeing your work. Great job!:thumbsup:


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## Hunch

Wonderfull (no hand clap emoticon, unfortunately). I was never very happy with the final TMP Enterprise design. I thought all the paint and grids and detail killed it. Dont get me wrong, I think they did an incredible job on the model, ESPECIALY the paint job, I just dont think it was needed (overkill) and to me it just wasn't the ENTERPRISE.
Now the Phase 2 version is a thing of beauty!:thumbsup: The job you are doing is just proving to me that they took the wrong direction when making so many changes in its initial design. I still have not built my 1/350 TMP model for the reasons I have stated. Now dont go jumping down my throat everybody, I realize I am in the minority here but I am allowed an opinion so everybody take a deep breath before you stone me (it will allow for a more accurate aim). 
Now when I do build my TMP Enterprise I will be painting her light grey with NO pearlesant paint AT ALL. I will be using most of the decals but will more than likely fill in most of the lines (more like trenches on this bird!) and will be much happier with the outcome.
After that I will be attempting the Phase 2 version using the 1/350 kit and Shaw, you, my friend, will have saved me a lot of heartache! I hope you make up plans for sale when you are done and any after market parts would be a big plus as well.
You are doing such an amazing job I can hardly believe it. You deserve every word of praise you are getting in this thread and then some. I (who happen to be VERY hard to impress) am just bown away, and want to thank you for starting this project and sharing it with all of us. With all of the bad things that have been happening to me in my everyday life I realy appreciate this kind of great pick me up.
Bravo sir and keep up the great work,:thumbsup:
Jim


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## StarshipClass

Hunch said:


> Wonderfull (no hand clap emoticon, unfortunately). I was never very happy with the final TMP Enterprise design. I thought all the paint and grids and detail killed it. Dont get me wrong, I think they did an incredible job on the model, ESPECIALY the paint job, I just dont think it was needed (overkill) and to me it just wasn't the ENTERPRISE.


I agree. I think they overdid it. The refit actually looks better in scenes where the details aren't quite as visible or where the sfx model has been painted over to subdue the details a bit.

I am torn a bit though. I like and appreciate the extra detailing for what it is, but to me, it was unneeded and distracting. I _prefer _the plainer, smoother, battleship looking surfaces vs. the aircraft like paneling they went with for the refit.


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## Shaw

Wow... thanks guys!

I'm honestly surprised that this has garnered as much interest as it has. I'm glad that this is something that I can share with others because when I first started it I sorta thought it would only be interesting to a handful of people.



I've been applying time to this when ever I can, but most of what I've been doing isn't all that interesting to see. Mainly puttying, sanding, priming, noting what needs more work, and repeat. I did close up most of the opening where the dorsal meets the primary hull, so I'm most likely days away from joining these parts together. I'm also nearly ready to cut the front off the secondary hull (which means I'll be putting more time into the deflector assembly soon) which I need to do before attaching the dorsal.

At any rate, here is another series of test assembly shots...
















Here is a quick inventory of what has been started and what needs more attention...- The impulse engines and linear accelerator assembly have been started, but are missing a few pieces. What has been made needs additional cleaning up.
- The bridge has been attached to the B/C deck structure. I still need to make the turbo lifts and smooth out the bridge base before I can consider making a mold of the part.
- Lower sensor dome assembly main pieces are started, but are still quite rough.
- I need to start adding seems to the hangar doors. The fantail edge needs to be smoothed and sharpened a bit still.
- The engine mounts are started, but need some reshaping towards the rear. These are based more on the studio model than the Jefferies plans, and they'll be attached to the support pylons at about the same time the supports are attached to the secondary hull. The plan is for them to be even with the upper rim of the primary hull. The nacelles will be attached to them after nearly all the painting is done and the decals applied.
- I started in on the weapons assembly, but because it intersects both the lead edge of the dorsal and the top of the secondary hull, getting the part to the shape needed will have to wait for that area of the model to be completed. Once in place, the upper and lower support edges can be made.​


----------



## WarpCore Breach

'Tis a thing of beauty.... AWESOME work! :thumbsup:


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## Prowler901

Shaw said:


> Wow... thanks guys!
> 
> I'm honestly surprised that this has garnered as much interest as it has. I'm glad that this is something that I can share with others because when I first started it I sorta thought it would only be interesting to a handful of people.


Well, it's kinda like you're researching and uncovering the missing link. Like the "missing" Enterprise.

Great work. It is exciting to watch. :thumbsup:

Todd


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## StarshipClass

Prowler901 said:


> Well, it's kinda like you're researching and uncovering the missing link.


Great way to put it! Very much describes the fascination, I think. :thumbsup:


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## Fozzie

This "lost" ship has ALWAYS been an interest of mine. I love what you're doing! Thanks for sharing.


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## Captain April

Another fun aspect is that since it was never properly finished (before being converted into the TMP version), there's a lot of room for interpretation.


----------



## StarshipClass

Captain April said:


> Another fun aspect is that since it was never properly finished (before being converted into the TMP version), there's a lot of room for interpretation.


On the one hand, I wish there were more completed details on the original model so we had more of a idea on how far they would have gone. On the other hand, like you said, you can push the design to a more logical conclusion if you're not happy with where they got with it. 

I like the simplicity of the original Jefferies design and will probably keep it simple:


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## JGG1701

Awesome work Mr. Shaw.:thumbsup::thumbsup:
-Jim


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## Dave in RI

JGG1701 said:


> Awesome work Mr. Shaw.:thumbsup::thumbsup:
> -Jim


+1!

Once the study model construction is completed, do you plan on painting and applying decals? Will you include the red pinstriping?


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## dehayes

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by 1701ALover
> I don't remember if you mentioned it before (and I'm too tired and lazy, right now, to go back through the whole thread again), but are you planning on creating kits from this?
> 
> I've thought about making the bridge/B/C deck and nacelles available because those are parts I'll be making molds of. The two key factors are how well the parts turn out and how well the molds of them work. If it seems like I have to do a lot of work to get the cast pieces to work correctly, then I think that might be too much to ask of someone buying them. I could see if someone who does this type of thing wants to do molds and castings (and maybe even selling) of the parts if there is that level of interest.
> 
> Plus I'm not sure if people will want this version of the nacelles. While there is a lot of the Price/Loos model filling in the blanks, the overall design of the nacelle follows Jefferies plans. I might go back and make a second nacelle master later on that fully reflects the look and feel of the studio model's nacelles.
> 
> Part of the reason I've gone with Jefferies designs over what was done on the studio model is that I hope to be able to examine the studio model's parts in the near future. With that information I could make very accurate plans (and parts).


I would be very interested in getting a set of nacelles and the bridge. Even if they need some touch-up or refinement. Maybe even willing to help you in the refinement process working towards putting them out there for sale.

Please keep me in mind if you want to pursue making add-on parts out of these.


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## Shaw

Wow... thanks guys!




Dave in RI said:


> Once the study model construction is completed, do you plan on painting and applying decals? Will you include the red pinstriping?


I've been working on some of the decals... mainly the windows at this point. As the contours of the model start to reach their final shapes, I'm lifting those to act as guides to how the windows will have to be placed on the decal sheet. I could (most likely) finish the window decals in a week or two.

The rest are still up in the air right now. I have a set of decal art work derived from the TOS Enterprise for this model which is mostly ready to go, but finding out what the actual decals were supposed to have looked like is part of the research goals.

Unfortunately, my time has been constrained by other (work) projects. I hope to build in time into my schedule soon that will make more time for research. It is a lot easier to find time (a few minutes here and there) to work on the model than it is to track down leads on details about the original model right now. Still, the model would also benefit from more (or larger blocks of) time.

I don't know about the pinstriping at this time because I'm not sure when that idea was first put forward (before or after December of 1977). It might have been a TMP artifact that was just not followed through on when the TMP model was altered. But it might have had it's origins in the Phase II Enterprise design (resembling some elements of Jefferies drawings), so it is one of the aspects that has warranted further investigation (specially because it is a detail that someone might not include unless directly asked/reminded about).

And I'm not discarding early TMP data that I come across. Good information is good information, even if it doesn't directly apply to the project at hand. So I will at some point put together all the information I can about the original TMP Enterprise design for those interested in replicating that version of the Enterprise (which also never made it to screen).


And *dehayes*, I'll keep your offer in mind. All of that is still a ways down the road.


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## Shaw

I feel really bad because most of the work I've been doing on this project lately really doesn't show up all that well in the photos, so it is hard to show my progress.

I'm nearly ready to attach the dorsal to the primary hull. I figure at some point I need to accept the part for how it is and keep moving forward with the build... plus this is a study model (even if it also serves as a display piece when finished).

Beyond attaching the dorsal, I need to start thinking about attaching the bridge/B/C deck piece... which in turn means I need to start thinking about getting the supplies for making that part. Originally I planned on doing the bridge/B/C deck and nacelles at the same time, but the nacelle master needs quite a bit more work, and it'd be easier to go through a number of _trial-n-error_ stages with the bridge/B/C deck part than the nacelles.

I'm still working on the deflector assembly... sanding, puttying, priming and repeat. I taped it to the secondary hull for these shots mainly so you guys could see the replacement disk I made. It might not have made that much of a difference in the overall look of the model, but it also wasn't that much additional work either.

I also was curious how the grills would look if they were something else other than white, and seeing as these aren't the final pieces anyways... I painted them steal. Jefferies noted that the larger grill bands on the nacelles were to be a reflective metal with blue/green internal lighting behind them, so I'm guessing (at this point) that the other grills would also be some type of metallic color as well.

Anyways, here are some more shots...


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## StarshipClass

Shaw said:


> I also was curious how the grills would look if they were something else other than white, and seeing as these aren't the final pieces anyways... I painted them steel. Jefferies noted that the larger grill bands on the nacelles were to be a reflective metal with blue/green internal lighting behind them, so I'm guessing (at this point) that the other grills would also be some type of metallic color as well.


I was wondering what your choice would be for the grills. The photos look as though they _may_ have used brass strips there but it would be a little too much in the way of backwards-looking retro-fitting to make them brass for the Phase 2, I think.

I think the reflective steel color is a good choice and in keeping with the subdued painting and detailing of the original ship. Steel looking foil http://www.bare-metal.com/bare-metal-foil.html may work well for a lighted version.


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## Shaw

That is an awesome find (... bookmarked). :thumbsup:

Yes, that would be perfect if I do a lit version, which I hope to do at some point. There is the possibility of getting parts from the original molds for a studio scale build, but if that falls through I might try a half studio scale version that would be lit.


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## Shaw

Here are some shots of the secondary hull on a mounting post (now that the internal structure for supporting the model is finished).


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## Garbaron

She sure is shaping up!


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## Captain April

Will you be adding a deflector dish, or going with the glowing TMP style of deflector?


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## Shaw

Actually, the geometry of the Phase II Enterprise's deflector assembly is essentially the same as the TMP Enterprise... but didn't light up. So those areas will be done in copper (like the TOS Enterprise), but the one change on mine will be that the bowl part won't be as deep as on the Phase II Enterprise (studio model).

Interestingly enough, Jefferies wasn't a fan of the dish. It was added at the same time the Enterprise was re-scaled and was intended to add life to the Enterprise by having a moving part (the dish was designed to be aimed). Jefferies original plans for the model (at the original scale) had a nose cone covering the instruments at the front of the secondary hull (the same way it is done on fighter planes). 

So when Jefferies was ask to revisit the design of the Enterprise, because the dish was never used as it was intended, Jefferies integrated the whole assembly into a single piece again.

But yeah, the lighting part seems to be a post-Phase II element. The idea that the dish would have remain was because Mike Minor was mainly using a modified AMT model as a reference for his art work. But the dish was never part of either Jefferies plans or the Price/Loos model.

Have I considered making the bowl on this model as deep as the studio model?

Yes... but I don't know if I would be able to make the shape exactly right, and there isn't anything terribly wrong with the shallower bowl of the model kit's part. So at this point I haven't (completely) ruled out further modification of that part.


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## StarshipClass

Shaw said:


> Actually, the geometry of the Phase II Enterprise's deflector assembly is essentially the same as the TMP Enterprise... but didn't light up. So those areas will be done in copper (like the TOS Enterprise), but the one change on mine will be that the bowl part won't be as deep as on the Phase II Enterprise (studio model).


I like that plan! The dark color of the dish in some scenes of the TMP is somewhat along those lines.



Shaw said:


> Interestingly enough, Jefferies wasn't a fan of the dish. It was added at the same time the Enterprise was re-scaled and was intended to add life to the Enterprise by having a moving part (the dish was designed to be aimed). Jefferies original plans for the model (at the original scale) had a nose cone covering the instruments at the front of the secondary hull (the same way it is done on fighter planes).
> 
> So when Jefferies was ask to revisit the design of the Enterprise, because the dish was never used as it was intended, Jefferies integrated the whole assembly into a single piece again.


Have you got additional documentation to this effect or is this your judgement based on the blueprints?

If the latter, it makes perfect sense. :thumbsup:



Shaw said:


> The idea that the dish would have remain was because Mike Minor was mainly using a modified AMT model as a reference for his art work. But the dish was never part of either Jefferies plans or the Price/Loos model.


The artwork always confused me. I thought perhaps that the dish was going to be placed in front of the depression but what you put forth makes much more sense.:thumbsup:


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## Captain April

I asked because some renderings show a TOS type dish that's been recessed into the housing.


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## Shaw

PerfesserCoffee said:


> Have you got additional documentation to this effect or is this your judgement based on the blueprints?
> 
> If the latter, it makes perfect sense. :thumbsup:


I'll have to look it up, but I seem to recall Jefferies using the deflector dish as an example of how he had to compromise the design of the Enterprise to make it more visually interesting for screen and how it ran counter to his idea that all the important equipment should be inside (or serviceable from inside) the ship.

So, while the dish is somewhat visually interesting, when you add in the fact that his final plans for the model didn't just include the dish, but also the hinge element that would allow it to move, you can see why it might have been even more visually interesting (had that aspect been used).

Here is the thing... from all my studies of Matt Jefferies it seems like after the end of TOS he stopped talking to people about specifics. He didn't refuse to talk, but he wouldn't provide any details. Often times fans would come to him with their ideas of how things worked (or asking why there was _this_ or _that_ contradiction with the writer's guide), and he would passively let them come to their own conclusions.

This isn't to say that he didn't think about or know the specifics of how he envisioned the Enterprise, only that he seem to find talking to people about them either tiresome or frustrating, and started avoiding getting into it. But from what I've seen of what he put down in his drawings and diagrams, this is a person who took the design of the Enterprise way more seriously than a TV show required and kept on thinking about it even when he didn't have to. I've gotten the feeling that Jefferies continued to refine the design of the Enterprise well after production of *The Cage* was finished and the pilot's rejection. In the two years between the first pilot and the series I think Jefferies had most of the Enterprise mapped out.

A perfect example of Jefferies avoiding going into details is this exchange with Doug Drexler..._Before I began placing Main Engineering in diagram where I did, I got Matt Jefferies approval. Basically I asked him where Engineering was, and he looked at me funny and said, “In the Engineering section.”_​Jefferies knew exactly where engineering was... and where every deck would be and much more. Did he supply Drexler with this information when he found out Drexler was doing a cross section diagram? No.

So based on that, I mainly figure out what Jefferies' intent was based on what he put to page. He may not have been willing to talk about the Enterprise, but the man couldn't stop himself from spilling out many of his ideas when he got to draw her. And the details that he got into with the Phase II Enterprise weren't required in any way for what he was asked to do... update the design and provide plans for building the studio model.

Part of my fascination with the Phase II Enterprise plans is that they are a sort of _Rosette Stone_ for understanding the smaller glimpses of what we have from Jefferies during the production of TOS. He had all these ideas bottled up for more than 7 years and when given the opportunity to put them down on paper (even though he wasn't attached to the production and it wasn't really needed any more than it would have been in 1966) he jumped at it. The amount of information in his Phase II materials that has nothing to do with building the studio model is amazing.

So yeah, I don't spend too much time reading anything that Jefferies said or that people say he said to them (which they think makes them an authority) because he didn't like talking about the subject.




Captain April said:


> I asked because some renderings show a TOS type dish that's been recessed into the housing.


I think the combination of the fact that some of the final aspects of the design seemed spotty, the need to fill in those gaps and the Mike Minor artwork all contributed to many people adding the dish to their versions. The thing is, there are enough drawings by Jefferies without a dish that it should have made that aspect clearer. And it wasn't as if he would have left it off to be drawn in or added sometime later, he had no problem drawing the dish in his original plans of the Enterprise...








And it isn't like the Minor paintings are a bad source for some details. You just have to make some educated guesses as to which elements should be included (like the dish and the dimples under the primary hull). And I don't think we've seen all his artwork as it should have been seen. In looking more closely at one painting I noticed that the bizarre/random windows were most likely added after the original painting was finish to "liven it up" a bit. This is what I think that painting most likely originally looked like...








But again we've seen people attempt to replicate the random windows on their CG models thinking that was how it would have been. But Minor's other painting attempting to match the windows of the TOS Enterprise follows Jefferies intent that there be few changes to the primary hull's configuration.

But in the end, because the Phase II Enterprise never made it to screen, it is hard to fault anyone's interpretations (many of which include TMP elements). The closest we got to seeing the Phase II Enterprise on screen was when it almost played the part of the Reliant in _Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan_. Unfortunately, even though the producers were attempting to do nearly anything to keep the production budget small for that movie, they were worried that general audiences wouldn't be able to tell the two ships apart on screen, so they wanted a new starship with a different design.






Along the same lines as how I've researched Jefferies' vision of the Enterprise, you guys would be surprised (or maybe not) at how much time I spend just looking at and studying the drawings that I've printed out. Of course I originally planned on putting everything I had together into a number of 18"x24" sheets and having them printed off... but that didn't happen. What did was that I'd throw together some elements I needed at the scale I needed into a page size document and printed them off as I needed them.

I've printed some 18 pages of drawings since starting this project. Here is a shot of some of them as I sometimes arrange them to get a better idea of the scale of the model they are helping me build.








There are times when it still would have been easier to have a couple large sheets to work with (like when I need to collect them all together so my wife doesn't trip over them).


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## StarshipClass

Shaw said:


> I think the combination of the fact that some of the final aspects of the design seemed spotty, the need to fill in those gaps and the Mike Minor artwork all contributed to many people adding the dish to their versions. The thing is, there are enough drawings by Jefferies without a dish that it should have made that aspect clearer. And it wasn't as if he would have left it off to be drawn in or added sometime later, he had no problem drawing the dish in his original plans of the Enterprise...


 Never underestimate the need to state the obvious. Your logic is flawless! :thumbsup:


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## SFCOM1

PerfesserCoffee said:


> Never underestimate the need to state the obvious. Your logic is flawless! :thumbsup:


To paraprase Spock in this matter..." Your logic was most impressive...We are all in great danger!"


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## StarshipClass

SFCOM1 said:


> To paraprase Spock in this matter..." Your logic was most impressive...We are all in great danger!"


Yeah, that's what I was trying to think of!


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## arr531

Hi guys, I just joined the forum becuase I have been followiing this thread and wanted to just say what awesome work you are doing here David. I always liked the Jefferies' design over TMP. I liked the TMP version but I also thought it was overdone. This is more of a logical upgrade. I too never thought it should have a dish since Jefferies's never had one on any blueprints I have ever seen online yet. I think it looks better without anyways! I do have some questions for you David, if you don't mind:

1. Have you discovered any evidence as to how the warp nacelles caps were suppose to look like. I know there is MIle Minor's artwork but I think he took some poetic license with the artwork. It is a liitle confusing to tell from Jefferies' blueprints what he meant there. I think there are several interpretations you can make.

2. Have you discovered any information about the docking ports yet? I have seen the photo of the model showing the one docking port as being labeled "Bay 4" on the port side. I wonder if the main shuttle bay was counted as "Bay 1" and then the starboard docking port as "Bay 2" and thus only 3 docking ports or do you think there were 4 distinct docking ports? This is fun stuff.


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## StarshipClass

arr531 said:


> I always liked the Jefferies' design over TMP. I liked the TMP version but I also thought it was overdone. This is more of a logical upgrade. . . .


My thoughts exactly!



arr531 said:


> 1. Have you discovered any evidence as to how the warp nacelles caps were suppose to look like. I know there is MIle Minor's artwork but I think he took some poetic license with the artwork. It is a liitle confusing to tell from Jefferies' blueprints what he meant there. I think there are several interpretations you can make.
> 
> 2. Have you discovered any information about the docking ports yet? I have seen the photo of the model showing the one docking port as being labeled "Bay 4" on the port side. I wonder if the main shuttle bay was counted as "Bay 1" and then the starboard docking port as "Bay 2" and thus only 3 docking ports or do you think there were 4 distinct docking ports? This is fun stuff.


Excellent questions!

I'm thinking the P2 model was being built with no lighting on the forward nacelle caps and that the lighting in the middle was to make up for the lack of an effect there. It's possible, according to some reports that the powers that be may have wanted to add some lighting there but I haven't come across anything specific. Maybe Shaw has.

I would think that the docking bays were distinct from the shuttlebay, myself. I've been confused over where the other two bays were. Presumably, bay 3 is opposite bay 4 which would be in keeping with the modern naval tradition of numbering port side even numbers and starboard side with odd numbers. But where are bays 1 & 2 located? If I had to make guess, I'd put them on the starboard and port sides of the saucer where the TMP version has them. 

BTW: Shaw, there is supposed to be a trench along the top from the front of the engines to about halfway back, isn't there?


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## arr531

I think it would look good if they were not lighted and solid. It does look like in the shots of the unfiniished model that they could have been going that direction and maybe just giving a different color like what was done in the TMP version. That would work. It looks like to me, and it could be just me, that when I look at the blueprints; there is pinstriping and navigational beacons on the edge of the saucer. It certainly looks like beacons to me from a side view and top view. I have looked at other posted blueprints online and those are there as well. I wonder if that is where Andrew Probert got the idea for the three stripes around the edge of the saucer from? Perhaps not. Did you mean having the ports on the primary saucer's edge? It doesn't look like they are large enough to accomodate there or did I misunderstand you? I was thinking maybe on the starboard and port side of the command deck. It's too bad I cannot find any other posted shots of the essentially finished model besides the "Bay 4" shot. I think it is going to be an awesome looking ship when it is done.


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## arr531

Actually another question I have is which of the two dorsals are you going to go with the, the one-to-one scale or the alternate dorsal design?

I thought that the TMP version had too many window clusters around the saucer but I also think the TOS version had too few windows. I would have for the P2 model, dropped the 3 round windows in front, kept the 4 window clusters where they were but added more windows to each cluster and made them all symmetrical - but that is just me. The only other things I would have added to the primary saucer would have been more phaser emiiters. Even though they are not in any of the blueprints, I think from a logistical standpoint they should ber there, but I guess becuase of the circumstances you pretty much have to go with what is in the blueprints and whatever photos and info you can find about the Price/Loos studio model. Everything else on the saucer I would have left alone.


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## Shaw

Well, first of all... Wow! Thanks for the interest in the project.

So when looking at this stuff (both where it was coming from as well as where it might have ended up) I often take into consideration not only Jefferies, but also the producers and builders input as well.

For example, the domes on the TOS Enterprise nacelles weren't intended to light up originally. That was done to satisfy the producers and the effect was put together by the model builders. Jefferies was out of the loop on that aspect of the TOS Enterprise. Similarly, the producers wanted the inboard grills (which weren't part of the original TOS Enterprise design) to be back lit with a blue-green light. Even though this would have meant modifying a single nacelle, that element (the inset where the grills were) was carved from wood and might be damaged while making the modification to the point of having to rebuild the nacelle almost from scratch (which was what killed that idea). Again, Jefferies wasn't part of that, but he did take it into account in his design of the Phase II Enterprise... which is important.

So when looking at both the (original) TOS Enterprise design and the Phase II Enterprise design, Jefferies appears to keep key pieces the same... but different. Jefferies (wisely) never attempts to define how the technology works, but wanted the evolution to show that the same technology was in play. So the front of the Phase II nacelles are analogous to the domes of the TOS nacelles, the inset grills of the Phase II nacelles are analogous to the inset grills of the TOS nacelles, and the additional details on the rear of the Phase II nacelles are analogous to the additional details on the rear of the first pilot nacelles. As elements on a physical model they would have worked similar to each other as well.

An interesting thought experiment is to remove everything between the Phase II Enterprise design and the original (first pilot) Enterprise design. If we (for this) assume that Star Trek wasn't picked up for a series after the 1964/65 pilot, but was reconsidered for a series in 1977, and Jefferies was asked to redesign the original Enterprise, how might an unlit Phase II Enterprise have been built/painted?

On the docking bay ports...

Here is the thing... this was a last minute element that was added to comply with a scene in the pilot script. It wasn't part of the original design and hadn't even been added to the model while under construction. The port was added onto the original plans (the one-to-one scale plans from September of 1977) but didn't appear on any of the later plans (all the other plans are from November of 1977). Magicam built (and finished) the enlarged section of the secondary hull with the "bay 4" label before Price/Loos were even made aware that the studio model was going to need that additional detail. All of this was rushed in at the last minute (effects filming was scheduled for January/February of 1978), and by this point Jefferies had had to bow out of the project.

The photos of the first test assembly of the Enterprise show the masters of the secondary hull while the photos of the Enterprise in the space dock show a final secondary hull. The masters (and molds) of the secondary hull do not include the docking port, which gives us an idea of how late in production this was added in.

The assessment of the effects miniatures for the switch to TMP was done in early December of 1977 (the assessment memo was dated December 6, 1977). When all this happen, there was essentially a game of _musical chairs_ occurring, with Magicam given the inside track (as they were part of Paramount). And in the end, they were able to get the Phase II Enterprise set aside for a new model that they would build for TMP.

So the fact that Magicam finished the enlarged section and labeled it "bay 4" was most likely to help with convincing the powers that be that they were better suited doing ALL of the models and pushing Price and company out. After all, if you show up to show your progress on a studio model that has to be in front of cameras in a few weeks to find that you have to add not one, but four elements that cut into the model, what would your reaction be?

And one shouldn't forget the reasoning behind these docking ports... to avoid building a new hangar bay miniature (because the original was long since gone by that point).

All of that political stuff aside... how might we deal with this issue today in the design and building of a Phase II Enterprise? I suggest we look at the two docking ports on the underside of the TMP Enterprise primary hull... which exist behind doors. That would cover bays 1 and 2, and if you have 3 and 4 on either side of the secondary hull, you're pretty much covered.

I am debating adding the docking ports... and if I do add them, they will be done as a build up of primer around a masked circle and the pentagon doors themselves would be a decal. If I do it, it has to be almost not visible because it really clutters up that area with the registry number.

On the dorsal... I'm going with the original one-to-one scale plans because it seems like a more realistic upgrade path from the TOS design (and why my dorsal is essentially just the TOS dorsal currently).

The problem, and it is something of a problem that I have a lot of questions about, is that the Price/Loos dorsal is a misreading of the plans. And throws everything else about that part of the design off if you attempt to go forward with their dorsal. Jefferies tried to be accommodating in his later drawings, but it is significant that in his November drawings we don't get a front view of the ship. Top, side, back, partial bottom and cross-section... but no front.

On the primary hull details... other than the impulse engine elements and overall geometry, it'll be done as the third season Enterprise (and will be symmetrical). But yes, the navigation lights that appear on the top and bottom of the TOS Enterprise will be replaced with ones on the side just like in Jefferies plans.

Here is the thing about the cluster of three windows on the front of the primary hull... they (whatever they are) are the same as the two set on the underside towards the back of the primary hull. In the second pilot, the center window of those clusters (all three) were turned into marker lights, and then back to just round windows for the series. So I'm still debating keeping them... but whatever I do, it'll be the same for all three clusters and not just the ones on the front.

Phasers... this is one of those things that I know is going to be controversial so I've tended not to bring it up much. Actually, I've been avoiding it. Everywhere I've said "weapons assembly" I've actually meant "phaser assembly".

Lets face it... the original Enterprise had no weapons. It wasn't really on anyones minds at the time it was being designed, so it was left off. Jefferies tried to amend this in his writers guide drawings by showing where they might be and the effects people (not always the same people or company from episode to episode) generally attempted to match this.

To fix this Jefferies added a clearly visible phaser bank at the base of the dorsal. This is also included in the Phase II writers guide which states..._... and our Optical Effect here is "blips or "squirts" of blue phaser fire, which are emitted from the vessel's main strut._​The definition of what "phasers" are covers both the standard beam version and the "Balance of Terror" version (which seemed like what was later called photon torpedos). I think this was an attempt to simplify weapons for the writers.

At any rate, the Enterprise was finally given a place where all that was to be seen coming from for Phase II.

The turrets all over the ship in TMP and the dedicated use for torpedos of the assembly at the base of the dorsal are all post-Phase II elements. In going from TOS to Phase II, the Enterprise went from no weapons to the weapons assembly at the base of the dorsal, but that was all. Jefferies didn't reference anything else (even his own TOS writers guide drawings) in doing this, where as I get the impression that the TMP design was influenced by the Franz Joseph plans.

I know most people see that assembly and assume it is for the photon torpedos because that was what it was for in TMP, but in Phase II it was for the phasers (and everything that was covered under the definition of "phasers").




So... yes, I've been working on the model this last week. Hopefully I'll put some new photos up soon. Most of the work has been to the secondary hull detail elements which I need to get finished off enough that I can start thinking about the major task of joining the primary hull to the dorsal and then the dorsal to the secondary hull. Some of this is just easier when working with the secondary hull by itself.


----------



## arr531

Thanks Shaw, some good insight there. I did read that the weapons assembly at the base of the dorsal was phasers and not torpedoes. Season 3 Enterprise eh? I will take a look at some photos.


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## StarshipClass

Wow! Excellent info, Shaw! Thanks! :thumbsup:


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## Prowler901

Wow, that was a whole lot of great history. Thanks Shaw. :thumbsup:


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## publiusr

I even remember a McDonalds happy meal commercial for STTMP with a phaser beam coming from the dorsal. There is a blueprinted 'back-up' phaser location, and the TNG Darmock goof. I actually have no problem with two different light based weapons coming from one port myself.


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## arr531

A blue/green backlit color on the nacelles huh? That would be interesting. I wonder about the "grilles" on the nacelle support struts and the ones toward the front of the nacelles? Same color as the rest of the hull? It's a kick watching this thing take shape.


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## Shaw

arr531 said:


> I wonder about the "grilles" on the nacelle support struts and the ones toward the front of the nacelles? Same color as the rest of the hull?


Most likely metallic of some sort. When looking at these grills, because they have a similar geometry, they most likely served a similar function and would have been made of a similar material... so would be a similar color. The grills on the supports are like the grills in the supports of the TOS Enterprise, so one could follow a similar logical progression from there.

What is interesting is that Jefferies finally got the nacelle support grills back where he originally wanted them... on the outboard side. Somewhere along the line (I think it was most likely Datin who changed this) the nacelle support grills ended up facing inwards even though Jefferies originally had them facing outwards (at least in the original plans for the smaller Enterprise).

And while on the subject (and I'm sure I've pointed this out before), the smaller Enterprise design wasn't the same as the final larger one. It had similar elements and a similar arrangement, but it wasn't as though they just said "and now it is bigger" and left it at that. When Roddenberry decided on this change, it sent Jefferies back to the drawing board and a lot of the ship changed. To give you guys an idea of how the original design sorta looked, here is one of Jefferies' sketches that best represents it...








If you take this data, plus the turbo lift diagram, pressure compartment diagram, and primary and secondary hull shapes of the 33 inch Enterprise studio model, you can get a pretty good idea of what the smaller scale Enterprise (that was within weeks of being *THE* Enterprise) might have been like.

You might also notice that Jefferies returned to the more fin like design for the linear accelerator part of the impulse engines in his Phase II Enterprise.




On my current study model, I got the silicon rubber this week, and so I'm hoping to mold the bridge/B/C deck soon. I've also been working on the secondary hull, which is about where I wanted it.

Below are some images of the secondary hull, including a couple from early on to show the progression of my modifications.


----------



## Shaw

So I did a test mold of the bridge/B/C deck. Actually, it might be _test_ in name only as the mold seems fine for what I need it for (I was mainly worried about bubbles in the mold). Here is the master and mold together...








So I'll most likely get some Alumilite White in the next day or so, cast the bridge/B/C deck part and then add the turbo lifts to it. I wasn't expecting to have this part this soon, so I'm debating adding it to the primary hull now or waiting until after the primary hull, dorsal and secondary hull are together. I'm mainly worried that it might get in the way while I'm working on finalizing the nacelle supports and working on their alignment (though having this part attached on my last TOS Enterprise didn't seem to give me too many issues).


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## RSN

This is a great build and is what the hobby is all about! Just wondering, how far along was the actual build was when it was test fitted in the original drydock miniature? It is hard to tell in the photo I have. Was it already wired for lights at that stage. 

Saw "Brick" Price on "Hollywood Treasures" a while back. He still has the molds, but he is not parting with them. I wouldn't!!!


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## Shaw

RSN said:


> This is a great build and is what the hobby is all about!


Thanks!



RSN said:


> Just wondering, how far along was the actual build was when it was test fitted in the original drydock miniature? It is hard to tell in the photo I have. Was it already wired for lights at that stage.
> 
> Saw "Brick" Price on "Hollywood Treasures" a while back. He still has the molds, but he is not parting with them. I wouldn't!!!


The drydock test fit shot was taken at Magicam (I believe in late November of 1977), so the parts that were brought over included the primary hull (bridge/B/C deck set in place and impulse engine taped on), dorsal, secondary hull (final pulls, the two halves already joined), the nacelle support and nacelle cradles (those are also final parts) and two test pulls of the left nacelle.

I'm guessing that there were some issues with the nacelles because of the method that Price/Loos used to make molds (they used hard fiberglass molds rather than silicon rubber... but that is also why the molds have survived to this day). The molds that I've seen (in more recent photos) don't include the grill ribs visible on the master and earlier molds, but those elements would have been hard to extract from a hard mold (though pretty easy from a rubber one). Plus casting them into the part itself doesn't really save any time. So I think they pulled those elements off the original master and made new molds for the nacelles.

I don't believe that the lighting elements had been started at the time of that photo (the primary hull is still solid, with no windows cut out yet), but they definitely wouldn't have been brought along to Magicam for this test fitting. The internal support rigging is further along by this point (at least enough of it to semi-support itself when assembled) compared to the earlier test assembly photos (where the secondary hull masters were used).

The interesting thing about the nacelles (specially visible in the drydock test shot) is that the concave grill areas are perpendicular to the nacelle center axis... not angled down slightly as Jefferies had designed them (and how I have them on my nacelle master). I'm not sure if this was an oversight or a compromise to make casting the part easier (there are quite a few elements throughout the studio model that differ from Jefferies' plans like this).


----------



## RSN

Shaw said:


> Thanks!
> 
> 
> The drydock test fit shot was taken at Magicam (I believe in late November of 1977), so the parts that were brought over included the primary hull (bridge/B/C deck set in place and impulse engine taped on), dorsal, secondary hull (final pulls, the two halves already joined), the nacelle support and nacelle cradles (those are also final parts) and two test pulls of the left nacelle.
> 
> I'm guessing that there were some issues with the nacelles because of the method that Price/Loos used to make molds (they used hard fiberglass molds rather than silicon rubber... but that is also why the molds have survived to this day). The molds that I've seen (in more recent photos) don't include the grill ribs visible on the master and earlier molds, but those elements would have been hard to extract from a hard mold (though pretty easy from a rubber one). Plus casting them into the part itself doesn't really save any time. So I think they pulled those elements off the original master and made new molds for the nacelles.
> 
> I don't believe that the lighting elements had been started at the time of that photo (the primary hull is still solid, with no windows cut out yet), but they definitely wouldn't have been brought along to Magicam for this test fitting. The internal support rigging is further along by this point (at least enough of it to semi-support itself when assembled) compared to the earlier test assembly photos (where the secondary hull masters were used).
> 
> The interesting thing about the nacelles (specially visible in the drydock test shot) is that the concave grill areas are perpendicular to the nacelle center axis... not angled down slightly as Jefferies had designed them (and how I have them on my nacelle master). I'm not sure if this was an oversight or a compromise to make casting the part easier (there are quite a few elements throughout the studio model that differ from Jefferies' plans like this).


Thank you sir! :thumbsup:


----------



## Shaw

Made a little more progress...

The biggest change is that I've attached the dorsal to the primary hull today. Even though I based the design of the dorsal off contours taken from my primary hull, I still need to go back and do some gap filling around the top edge. But for the most part, it fit quite nicely and everything seems to be working out as I had planned it.

Here are a few test assembly shots after the dorsal was attached...








The only other thing of note in those images is that the bridge/B/C deck is the final part, not the master. I'll most likely be adding the turbo lifts to it in the next couple days. And if that goes well, I'll attach it to the primary hull.


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## WarpCore Breach

Gorgeous, GORGEOUS build.... she's a thing of beauty....!


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## Garbaron

This looks so cool!
Cant wait to see here painted and decaled!


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## arr531

Looking awesome Shaw. I just have a simple question. This maybe a stupid question, are you going to put grid lines on the saucer? I noticed they re both in the blueprints and the photos of the unfinished model. I noticed you have already put some detail in the saucer above and looks like below too I noticed.


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## Shaw

Thanks guys!



arr531 said:


> I just have a simple question. This maybe a stupid question, are you going to put grid lines on the saucer? I noticed they re both in the blueprints and the photos of the unfinished model. I noticed you have already put some detail in the saucer above and looks like below too I noticed.


The short answer... yes.


The long answer...

I'll be adding the grid lines to both the primary and secondary hulls using white pencil (like I did with my model of the Republic, the secondary hull grid lines on that model are based on the Phase II plans). Because this model is one-third studio scale, any attempt to engrave them would make them far too noticeable. And actually, the elements you are seeing on the primary hull are elements I originally considered doing as decals, but decided they would work better (and be less noticeable) as outlines from the primer (so those are masks that will be removed later). I'm mainly going for an understated look, with some details only really showing up when viewed close up to the model. The white pencil grid lines give the best effect I've found so far for this.

The red areas of this diagram show what I'll be adding as grid lines...








And, as it turned out, many of the hull marker numbers on the secondary hull of the TOS Enterprise align with the grid lines on the Phase II Enterprise, so I'll be including some of those on the final model as well.


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## Trekkriffic

I love reading your posts. So well thought out and researched. Extraordinary! Just beautiful!


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## Shaw

Thanks!





Well, I think this is as good a time as any to address one of the biggest gaps in data on the Phase II Enterprise... the primary hull details. And to do this, let us set the _wayback machine_ to 1977...








Lets start out with Jefferies describing the circumstances under which he was designing the Phase II Enterprise...

*From Star Trek Phase II, The Lost Series:*_"Consequently, in updating the ship, I did the drawings at night in the Hiltonat Tucson, because Little House was shooting on location there."

"Basically what I did to it was change the power units, and make a slight change in the struts that supported them. I gave the main hull a taper, then went flat-sided and thin with the power units, rather than keeping the cylindrical shape."

"Trying to work out the logic of the refit, I knew a lot of equipment inside would change, but I didn't see that there would be any need to change the exterior of the saucer. Certainly, though, the engines would be the primary thing to change. Part of the theory of the ships design in the first place was that we didn't know what these powerful things were or how devastating it would be if anything went awry, so that's why we kept them away from the crew. And that meant they could easily change if you had to replace one."_​
*And from Redesigning the USS Enterprise NCC-1701:*_Jefferies says he wasn't keen to make drastic changes to the Enterprise, "As far as I was concerned, about the only thing we could update was the engines, so I changed the design of the pods and the struts. I still wanted an absolutely plain exterior. Anything that man makes is going to break down; why put him outside in the worst possible environment when you can put him on the inside?" Jefferies goes on to say that he had actually prepared drawings that showed the Enterprise with flat nacelles when he'd originally created the ship. He had planned to present them if Roddenberry didn't like the first version of the Enterprise he saw but since they hadn't been needed he'd file them away for future use. These drawings provided the basis for his redesign. "I did the new working drawings with my board on the bed of the Hilton hotel in Tucson," he recalls, "because we were on location with 'Little House.' I came back and had them printed. [Model maker] Don Loos had the engine pods finished, and was working on the struts, but around that time I had to quit. They'd call up and say, 'We're having a meeting; come down right away.' I had to say, 'Hold it - it's interfering too much.' Mike Landon was beginning to look out of the corner of his eye at me."_​
So from this we can conclude that Jefferies was away from home (and most likely away from most sources of information on the Enterprise) while drawing up his plans for the Phase II Enterprise. We can also see that he didn't plan on the details of the primary hull to change much in the refit.

What else do we know about this point in Star Trek history and Jefferies' place in it?

Well, when not on location for _Little House_, Jefferies had an office almost directly above Roddenberry's. Jefferies did have some drawings from TOS, but the original plans for the Enterprise were in Richard Datin's possession at this time. The 11 foot model had already been donated to the Smithsonian and the 33 inch model was sitting on Roddenberry's desk (it wasn't loaned out to Robert Abel & Associates yet because they didn't get involved in the production until early December of 1977).

So from this we can conclude that Jefferies had most likely planned on using a combination of his own drawings (like those used in the TOS Writers Guide) and the 33 inch model (which had been updated to reflect changes made to the 11 foot model to the production version). In fact, when looking at the Phase II Enterprise's secondary hull window placement, it somewhat reflects the arrangement of windows of the secondary hull of the 33 inch model (so he might have either taken notes from the model or had some photos of it to work with).

Given all that, I've decided (for finishing the plans of Jefferies' version of the Phase II Enterprise) to use a combination of the TOS Writers Guide diagrams and the 33 inch model's primary hull details to finish the unfinished areas of Jefferies' drawings. The primary difference being that while I'll use those as a placement guide, the geometry of the windows on the primary hull will reflect those of the windows on the secondary hull (slightly smaller rectangles with rounded corners).

Below is a _quick-n-dirty_ version of what I believe Jefferies intended the Phase II Enterprise's primary hull to look like (I left the grid lines off so they wouldn't obscure the other details)...


_Click to enlarge_​


----------



## arr531

I am not trying to get off topic here but:

Ah, Sherman, Mr. Peabody and the wayback machine. Some memories there. 
I noticed according to your quick sketch there that the windows on the outer edge of the saucer are different from the TOS saucer. Looks better.


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## Captain April

I like the direction this is headed...


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## Shaw

arr531 said:


> I noticed according to your quick sketch there that the windows on the outer edge of the saucer are different from the TOS saucer. Looks better.


I've been sick the last couple days and didn't feel like getting up to sit at my main computer (all that was drawn on my laptop), so I just grabbed a copy of my original 33 inch Enterprise plans (from 2007) off the net and used them as a reference source for the window placement (essentially just replacing the windows from those plans with a window based on the Phase II secondary hull windows). I can do a better job (and would have more energy) once my temperature drops down below 100.


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## arr531

Sorry you are not feeling well. I hope it is nothing serious.


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## StarshipClass

Yeah, get well soon! Take care of yourself!


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## publiusr

I bid you good health.

A little O/T, but I wonder if the following might help you in your original AMT model work
This drawing was based on Gabe K's re-imagined Enterprise.

Now notice the blocky projections at the base of the nacelle supports here:

http://www.scifi-meshes.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=101548&d=1358552875

I wonder if you could work with Modular Models and make a plug in adapter That snaps into the AMT secondary hull, and allows the AMT nacelles to sit taller and flush with the saucer, thus eliminating nacelle "droop." 
It's not that the nacelles droop, but that both the secondary hull and nacelles are cones, and the model producer assumed there were straight cylinders, which would have worked.


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## Shaw

Thanks for the well wishes guys... I'm feeling much better (though bummed about losing the last weekend I could have totally devoted to the model before I start up on a month and a half of course work).




publiusr said:


> A little O/T, but I wonder if the following might help you in your original AMT model work...


Well, the sag issue of the original AMT kit has two main culprits... the attachment points of the nacelle supports to the secondary hull and the attachment point of the dorsal to the primary hull. Both of these flaws were easily spotted when I was working on my AMT plans. In fact, the last test assembly the fact that the dorsal does meet the primary hull flush when the primary hull is level can be noted. What is harder to spot right off the bat is that the openings for the nacelles supports on the secondary hull are at a steeper angle than the upper edge of the secondary hull (the angle should be slightly shallower). Because there isn't any structure associated with supporting the nacelle supports built into the secondary hull (as is the case in the small box version... where this has been corrected), changing the geometry of the openings should fix that issue (I made a diagram of the change I believe is needed). The dorsal should be fixable with a spacer applied where the front of the dorsal meets the primary hull and then filling the remaining gap.

If anything, I'd think that ParaGrafix could make a cutting template for making the secondary hull modifications. And for those wanting to fill the dimples in the primary hull, maybe a template for bringing back the original rings (which the dimples intersect). I'd think that between those two elements and my restored decals, anyone wanting to make the perfect authentic long box build (including the later long box releases) would have what they need... and it seems like there have been quite a few of these builds recently, so there might be a market for these types of aids.





As for the study model... I'm finishing up the process of connecting the dorsal to the primary hull. I'll most likely putty, sand and primer that in the next few days. When that is done, I'm considering attaching the impulse engines next.

I still need to sit down and cut the holes for the turbo lifts into the bridge/B/C deck. Once the turbo lifts are out of the way, I'll attach the bridge/B/C deck to the primary hull. I may also attach the lower sensor platform's base (but not the dome) in the next few days as well. Both domes will be painted and attached after the rest of the model is pretty much finished.

I also spotted the fact that the wires I bent to make the nacelle supports extend into the secondary hull are too long (and are running into each other in the center). So I'm going to make replacements for them this week.


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## publiusr

I'd like to see your saucer: http://www.shawcomputing.net/racerx/trek_stuff/models/phase_ii/p2_study_sketch-024.jpg 

on the Franz Joseph Achernar secondary hull. I think it would be a better fit than his own saucer--it looks best on Coronado.


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## Shaw

Eventually, when I finish the final plans, I'll also release a version of the drawings without the hull markings if any one wanted to mix and match parts.



I've made some progress this week, though most of it in small areas that aren't all that visually interesting. But I also made quite a bit of progress on the turbo lifts. Below are some test assemblies of the bridge/B/C deck, the turbo lifts are in place but not glued in yet (they still need a little work).








Once the lifts are in and the whole of the bridge/B/C deck part primered (and not needing any additional work), I'll attach the part to the primary hull. Once the bridge/B/C deck, lower sensor platform base and impulse engines are attached and all the puttying is done and the whole assembly primered, I'll attach it to the secondary hull.

So it is coming along... slowly but surely.


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## Warped9

I know I'm probably in the minoriity, but I've never been a fan of the Phase II design. Still this is an interesting project. I've seen cgi models of the Phase II refit, but this is the first physical model of it I've seen.

I find this seems a mish-mash of TOS and TMP elements whereas the TOS and TMP designs each look more integrated respectively.

Keep it up. It is quite interesting to see it physically realized.


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## Spockr

Warped9 said:


> I know I'm probably in the minoriity, but I've never been a fan of the Phase II design. ....


Sacrilege! Sacrilege! Save us Landru! 

I know what you mean about the mishmashish aspects of the design but I think it was a cool interim design that made a lot of sense for the TV medium where it was intended to be used. Even still, it doesn't seem quite complete. Was this version of the design officially "in the can" or would they still have made changes before the series started filming?

Regards,
Matt


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## StarCruiser

Warped9 said:


> I know I'm probably in the minoriity, but I've never been a fan of the Phase II design. Still this is an interesting project. I've seen cgi models of the Phase II refit, but this is the first physical model of it I've seen.
> 
> I find this seems a mish-mash of TOS and TMP elements whereas the TOS and TMP designs each look more integrated respectively.
> 
> Keep it up. It is quite interesting to see it physically realized.


^ This!

I'm not a fan of the P2 Enterprise design either, it always looked incomplete. None the less, your work is exceptional!


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## Shaw

Well, to date I haven't seen a really good CG version of the Phase II Enterprise. Almost all of them look like, as was said, _"a mish-mash of TOS and TMP elements"_. I know (and understand) that for many people there have been holes in data about the final design and that they have used artistic license to come up with a final rendering, but what usually ends up happening is that they insert TMP elements that were never intended to be there.

Everything that one needs to complete the design can be found by starting in December of 1977 and working backwards to the original design of the TOS Enterprise. What you should end up with is something that looks (and feels) like the original Enterprise... with some upgraded technology. But even that technology should feel like it came from the TOS universe (for example, the details on the rear of the Phase II nacelles is analogous to the details on the rear of the first pilot nacelles).

Had things gone forward as scheduled, the Phase II Enterprise was to be going in front of cameras in January/February of 1978... so none of the artistic and design contributions of people like Andrew Probert, Richard Taylor, Douglas Trumbull and Harold Michelson should show up in any rendition. The design of the Phase II Enterprise was that of Jefferies alone, and the final studio model was that of Jefferies' designs and Brick Price and Don Loos' workmanship (and interpretations of those designs).

Have we seen the Phase II Enterprise yet? No.

And even my study model is going to fall short because it will be a static model (and too small to implement some of the details even if I had wanted to go that route). This isn't where this project ends, this is just the beginning (primarily data collection).

Could someone do a good CG Phase II Enterprise? Sure. But I don't expect anyone to do it anytime in the near future. After all, this seems to be what a lot of people considered a "good" CG version...








... and I wouldn't have even started this model if I thought for one minute it would turn out like that.

Most people can't seem to stop themselves from going _TMP_ in one way or another. This hasn't been an issue for me as I don't care for the TMP design, so not using TMP elements is pretty easy (I have a box full of TMP elements from the original kit that I either didn't use or had to physically cut off, and I spent weeks removing other TMP aspects from what remained). To me, I'm building another TOS Enterprise model... not that different from my two attempts at replicating the 33 inch model or my Republic practice build. And where this model differs from the TOS Enterprise, I'm sticking with how Jefferies wanted things (including really interesting design elements that never made it to the TMP version and weren't quite fully realized in the Price/Loos model).

But in the end, talking about this isn't the same as seeing. I now have a pretty complete picture of how this was supposed to have gone... I just need to bring it to life.

This study model is just _phase I_, _phase II_ of this project should be much better.


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## StarshipClass

Shaw said:


> This study model is just _phase I_, _phase II_ of this project should be much better.


I definitely like the route you're taking. Your philosophy is similar to mine and your studies have really opened my eyes as to the authentic details of what would or should have been. 

Thanks for your hard work! It is greatly appreciated!:thumbsup:


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## publiusr

Now in one of Jefferies sketches, he has what looks to be a small impulse drive about where the torpedo exhaust on the refit would be, with the dorsal built up there a bit. That might make for a good add on bit.

It is good that you are making the torpedo bay removable as well.

I can see your design--thermocoat and all--under warm lights at NBC picking up where Turnabout Intruder left off. Heck I used to be able to tell which station I was watching just by the hue. CBS was dark. Bond Films and Trek films loked best on ABC, and the Rock Hudson Martian Chronicles had Mars look nice under NBC's yellowish tint.


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## kenlee

Shaw said:


> Well, to date I haven't seen a really good CG version of the Phase II Enterprise. Almost all of them look like, as was said, _"a mish-mash of TOS and TMP elements"_. I know (and understand) that for many people there have been holes in data about the final design and that they have used artistic license to come up with a final rendering, but what usually ends up happening is that they insert TMP elements that were never intended to be there.
> 
> Everything that one needs to complete the design can be found by starting in December of 1977 and working backwards to the original design of the TOS Enterprise. What you should end up with is something that looks (and feels) like the original Enterprise... with some upgraded technology. But even that technology should feel like it came from the TOS universe (for example, the details on the rear of the Phase II nacelles is analogous to the details on the rear of the first pilot nacelles).
> 
> Had things gone forward as scheduled, the Phase II Enterprise was to be going in front of cameras in January/February of 1978... so none of the artistic and design contributions of people like Andrew Probert, Richard Taylor, Douglas Trumbull and Harold Michelson should show up in any rendition. The design of the Phase II Enterprise was that of Jefferies alone, and the final studio model was that of Jefferies' designs and Brick Price and Don Loos' workmanship (and interpretations of those designs).
> 
> Have we seen the Phase II Enterprise yet? No.
> 
> And even my study model is going to fall short because it will be a static model (and too small to implement some of the details even if I had wanted to go that route). This isn't where this project ends, this is just the beginning (primarily data collection).
> 
> Could someone do a good CG Phase II Enterprise? Sure. But I don't expect anyone to do it anytime in the near future. After all, this seems to be what a lot of people considered a "good" CG version...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... and I wouldn't have even started this model if I thought for one minute it would turn out like that.
> 
> Most people can't seem to stop themselves from going _TMP_ in one way or another. This hasn't been an issue for me as I don't care for the TMP design, so not using TMP elements is pretty easy (I have a box full of TMP elements from the original kit that I either didn't use or had to physically cut off, and I spent weeks removing other TMP aspects from what remained). To me, I'm building another TOS Enterprise model... not that different from my two attempts at replicating the 33 inch model or my Republic practice build. And where this model differs from the TOS Enterprise, I'm sticking with how Jefferies wanted things (including really interesting design elements that never made it to the TMP version and weren't quite fully realized in the Price/Loos model).
> 
> But in the end, talking about this isn't the same as seeing. I now have a pretty complete picture of how this was supposed to have gone... I just need to bring it to life.
> 
> This study model is just _phase I_, _phase II_ of this project should be much better.


Of course, that version was from a couple of years ago, what finally made to the screen is closer to what Jefferies designed.


----------



## Shaw

Okay, so I've been trying to figure out how to word this... esthetically, I like the direction that NV/P2 went with their Enterprise.

That having been said, the nacelles (other than the color change of the front end caps) and nacelle support pylons are directly from Dochterman's original CG model. The pylon vents are modeled after the TMP version, and are on both sides of the pylon, the nacelle grills are convex rather than concave, the rear quarter of the nacelles use the TMP fins (and are on both sides) and the end of the nacelles also reflect a TMP geometry and look nothing like Jefferies' design.

Honestly, the only reason to change any of these aspects is to inject one's own design contributions. And there again is the main problem I've seen with most of the CG models of the Phase II Enterprise. 

Actually, I'd go a step further and say that that is one of the problems with some of the people who currently are considered the _go-to_ people for TOS today. They weren't part of TOS, but many have decided that they can now extend TOS based on how they see things. What I worry about is that what we'll have is an "Embrace, extend, and extinguish" situation with TOS history (I know this isn't their intend, but it'll most likely be the ultimate outcome).

I'm interested in recording/presurving Trek's (real world) history, not writing myself into it. I'm not an artist, so I don't need or want my artistic choices clouding these things if at all possible. And even when I started having to make too many choices between Jefferies' design and Price/Loos' model, I felt it was better to divide the subject up into two distinct versions (though this study model will more closely reflect Jefferies' version).

So esthetically, yeah, I like the direction that NV/P2 went with their Enterprise. But it is hard to see Jefferies actual design through all of Dochterman's artistic changes.




I've been making some small amounts of progress, and I'm pretty sure I'm close to connecting the dorsal to the secondary hull.

Also I think I've hit on nearly all the aspects of the nacelle that I wanted in place before making molds, so I'm hoping to join most of the major nacelle elements together in the next week and get them ready. As with the bridge/B/C deck, some aspects of the nacelles will be easier to address on the final parts (in the final material) than the collection of materials that the master is made out of.

Anyways, here is another test assembly I threw together...


----------



## kenlee

Shaw said:


> Okay, so I've been trying to figure out how to word this... esthetically, I like the direction that NV/P2 went with their Enterprise.
> 
> That having been said, the nacelles (other than the color change of the front end caps) and nacelle support pylons are directly from Dochterman's original CG model. The pylon vents are modeled after the TMP version, and are on both sides of the pylon, the nacelle grills are convex rather than concave, the rear quarter of the nacelles use the TMP fins (and are on both sides) and the end of the nacelles also reflect a TMP geometry and look nothing like Jefferies' design.
> 
> Honestly, the only reason to change any of these aspects is to inject one's own design contributions. And there again is the main problem I've seen with most of the CG models of the Phase II Enterprise.
> 
> Actually, I'd go a step further and say that that is one of the problems with some of the people who currently are considered the _go-to_ people for TOS today. They weren't part of TOS, but many have decided that they can now extend TOS based on how they see things. What I worry about is that what we'll have is an "Embrace, extend, and extinguish" situation with TOS history (I know this isn't their intend, but it'll most likely be the ultimate outcome).
> 
> I'm interested in recording/presurving Trek's (real world) history, not writing myself into it. I'm not an artist, so I don't need or want my artistic choices clouding these things if at all possible. And even when I started having to make too many choices between Jefferies' design and Price/Loos' model, I felt it was better to divide the subject up into two distinct versions (though this study model will more closely reflect Jefferies' version).
> 
> So esthetically, yeah, I like the direction that NV/P2 went with their Enterprise. But it is hard to see Jefferies actual design through all of Dochterman's artistic changes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've been making some small amounts of progress, and I'm pretty sure I'm close to connecting the dorsal to the secondary hull.
> 
> Also I think I've hit on nearly all the aspects of the nacelle that I wanted in place before making molds, so I'm hoping to join most of the major nacelle elements together in the next week and get them ready. As with the bridge/B/C deck, some aspects of the nacelles will be easier to address on the final parts (in the final material) than the collection of materials that the master is made out of.
> 
> Anyways, here is another test assembly I threw together...


In no way did I intend to imply any criticism of what you are doing here, your devotion to bringing Jefferie's design to life is truly admirable. I have been saving bits of your research as reference material for a possible future build of this "lost" Enterprise myself.


----------



## Gregatron

Loving this, Shaw. And I share your passion for recording history and not rewriting it.


All of this just fuels my desire to bash together a 1/1000 TOS and 1/1000 Refit kit into a "Prefit"/P2 model.


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## Shaw

kenlee said:


> In no way did I intend to imply any criticism of what you are doing here...


Oh... no worries. I just didn't want a critical view of the NV/P2 Enterprise to be mistaken for what I think of it esthetically.




I've been making progress towards joining the dorsal to the secondary hull. As I get closer to that step, I've been looking harder at the deflector assembly (which will be attached to the secondary hull after the dorsal).

I've had reservations about this part since I first started this build, but with the amount of modifications needed to the primary and secondary hulls, I put off (and actually hoped I wouldn't have to) modifying the bowl of the deflector assembly. With the latest round of test assemblies it became very clear that the bowl part from the original kit was too shallow. The design of the Phase II deflector assembly really calls for the bowl to be deeper and leaving it shallow would have effected the over all look of the model.

Given that, I cut out the bowl part of the piece and have been working on replacing it for the last couple days. I'm hoping to have that modification done by Monday.


----------



## Hunch

Bang up job you've been doing on this Shaw. Very impressive work indeed.


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## Shaw

Thanks!


So I didn't get quite as far as I had hoped, but made good progress. Below are test assembly shots with the new bowl (I desaturated the reds so the putty didn't stand out as much)...








The increased depth of the new bowl closely matches the original design, which effects how the whole deflector assembly appears when shot from different angles. It wasn't that the shallow bowl of the original part didn't look good (which was why I was debating keeping it), it was that it would have compromised how the original design intended the deflector assembly to look from different angles.


----------



## Warped9

Assuming this works out (which it looks like it will) I can see Starfleet trying this less drastic upgrade on another heavy cruiser first and then opting for the more extensive refit for the _Enterprise_ when its turn came.


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## arr531

Looking smooth Shaw. I could easily see this being the refit for the Enterprise.


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## Garbaron

She will looke awesome once she got her paintjob done! 

Great work, keep it up!


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## Shaw

Thanks guys!



Warped9 said:


> Assuming this works out (which it looks like it will) I can see Starfleet trying this less drastic upgrade on another heavy cruiser first and then opting for the more extensive refit for the _Enterprise_ when its turn came.


That almost happened... originally the Reliant was to be an older Constitution class starship in TWoK (making use of pre-existing models and sets to save money), but the producers were worried that average movie goers wouldn't be able to tell the two ships apart. It would have been great to see the two go _head to head_ on the big screen... though I doubt the model would have retained it's more or less pure Jefferies design if it would have happened.



Small update...


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## jsimpson746

Really Cool


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## arr531

Hey Shaw I realize you have got a million other things going on in your life alongside doing this but I was wondering if you have given any attention to what I like to call the "dorsal-mounted short-double-barrelled phaser/torpedo shotgun"?


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## Shaw

Well, I had started work on the assembly a while back, but realized that it intersected both the dorsal and secondary hull, so I needed to wait for the parts to be joined before starting it.

That having been said, the actual part will look like it has an oval opening. Artists have all taken Jefferies' design to extremes, but functionally the assembly has a single funnel opening leading to the emitter. Centered at the front of the opening is a targeting lens (which I plan to make from clear plastic) which will be attached to the opening at the top and bottom (though it is supposed to look like it is suspended in the opening by some invisible force). I didn't know if there was ever a plan to zoom in all that closely on the opening during effects shots, but the weapons fire would seem to be intended to travel straight out from the emitter and then be deflected in the direction of the target when it reached the lens (which could have been a moveable piece on the studio scale model, but will be fixed on my study model).

I'll put together a set of drawings of the assembly later this week. Still, you can make out quite a bit of what was going on in these elements of Jefferies' plans...








Sadly, this is one of the features that is going to suffer quite a bit from the small scale of my study model.


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## arr531

Actually I have come across that blueprint before. I wasn't sure if hat was Jefferies latest design on that or not. Yeah some of the cg and art work I have seen have taken it to the extreme. Jefferies design looks better then having 2 round barrels that I have seen on some cg models. I have always wondered too about the different lines that make up the weapons assembly from the side view. I assume the darker ones are the newer ones. Interesting stuff.


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## charonjr

I can easily see four manipulative hydraulic struts attached to and extending back from the lens into the housing. This could give an impression of a suspended lens, while actually allowing it to be mechanically aimed.


----------



## Shaw

arr531 said:


> I have always wondered too about the different lines that make up the weapons assembly from the side view. I assume the darker ones are the newer ones. Interesting stuff.


The thing to keep in mind is that those drawings were intended for the model builders (Brick Price and Don Loos) and include a ton of layered information (so much information and so densely packed on the page that even the model builders missed stuff). The drawings weren't done as nice views, but one can extrapolate what (for example) a side view might have looked like…








There were other drawings of the Phase II Enterprise done as nice views (most of which are publicly available), but they weren't at the _one-to-one_ scale to the filming model. Those other drawings were intended to give both the model builders and others in the production a reference for what the redesigned Enterprise looked like.




charonjr said:


> I can easily see four manipulative hydraulic struts attached to and extending back from the lens into the housing. This could give an impression of a suspended lens, while actually allowing it to be mechanically aimed.


I could see that being the case… though looking at the size of the original model, my guess is that the lens would have been static and that they might have made a scaled up version of the section of the model with a working lens later in the production (similar to what was done for the torpedo assembly in TWoK).



Update… I spent this week working on finishing off the lower part of the nacelle support pylons.

Because the surface angle of the secondary hull and the sweeping back angle of the supports themselves made the point at which they came together somewhat complex, I had left that aspect unfinished on them. I finally glued into place the guide wires in the supports, and then arranged the model upside-down with the supports put in place (and their upper edges inline with the plane of the primary hull). I had applied painter's tape to the secondary hull around the openings for the supports and then filled in the gap between the supports and the secondary hull surface with AMACO Sculptamold (cellulose-based paper maché pulp). The material sets up super hard once it finally cures all the way, but is still easy to work with within the first few days. After it had set for a while, I took the model apart and sanded the ends down to match the contours of the supports. It was still a little rough, so I applied glazing putty to it and sanded that down.

I'll most likely do a couple stages of applying primer and sanding to get the parts to a nice state, but won't worry too much about perfecting the edge where they join to the secondary hull until after I have permanently attached them.

I'll put up some shots in the next couple days.

On a side note, I have been worried about my choice of where I put the mounting point on the model. Both the original opening on the kit and the mounting point on the studio model were much further back on the secondary hull. But in the case of my model, the primary hull is so heavy that even after the model is assembled with the nacelles (which will be hollow) the thing is going to pull down quite a bit at the front. Even at this stage (with just the primary hull, dorsal and secondary hull) the model weighs more than my last Enterprise model (though in the case of that model, the primary hull may have been solid, but it was mostly made up of foamcore board).


----------



## Shaw

Well, I didn't get as far over the weekend as I had hoped, but because I hadn't posted any images in the last few posts I figured I'd put most of the pieces together and take a few shots of her.








Some spots are obviously being worked on (filling in some seems) and some parts are being worked on so they weren't included in the test assembly. Even with only one (unfinished) nacelle I think one can get a feel for how the model should turn out.


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## Prowler901

Impressive Shaw. Most impressive. :thumbsup:


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## Garbaron

Very cool!

I think she might have made an impression in TMP too.


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## arr531

I think you could have made this work for TMP without changing any of Jefferies design at all. Just add more lights here and there and a little of the makeup and she would have been just fine. Not too much makeup though. This is really nice work Shaw.


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## Paulbo

Tweaking to make it fit into TMP defeats the purpose of what Shaw is doing ... an awesome piece of movie archeology.


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## Garbaron

What I meant to say was, that this version of the Enterprise would have worked for TMP!
As in: there was no real need to redesign this in to the Refit. 
And I am saying this as a person who loves the Refit.


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## Paulbo

Gotcha. I misunderstood. (Ditto on loving the Refit.)


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## arr531

Same here. I didn't say to take any of the TMP stuff either for making this work for the movie. Just some lights here and there and some makeup. I too like the TMP model, I just like this better and it would have been fine for the movie.


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## Shaw

Thanks guys!

It is interesting considering the areas where the Phase II Enterprise would have had more lighting (the nacelles) verses where the TMP Enterprise had more (the deflector assembly, self illumination elements). When looking at how the nacelles were finally done on the TMP Enterprise, it is noteworthy that the grill lighting effect only remained on the inboard grills (as blue-purple rather than blue-green) and was dropped for the outboard ones.

The fact that this is going to be a static model is the main aspect that makes me want to revisit this subject again in the future. It has been a great tool for researching the details of the design, but I'd love to be able to better represent the model as it would have looked onscreen with all the lighting effects (though I might be able to pull it off to some degree with Photoshop… I've had some success in the past doing it with other models).



Paulbo said:


> ... an awesome piece of movie archeology.


Thanks!

Yeah, that is really what motivates me. I enjoy doing the drafting and model building, but I get the most enjoyment from researching these subjects.


----------



## Shaw

I happened to notice a while after taking those previous photos that one was pretty close to one of the original model...








I attached the bridge/B/C deck to the primary hull and I'm nearly finished enough with the deflector assembly to attach it to the secondary hull.








I've also started in on the decals this last weekend. I took rubbings of all the places I'd need decals for so i could match the contours and scanned them in. I've gotten pretty far on the windows (the ones for the primary hull are now done) and once I've gotten all the graphic elements I'm going to need put together I'll send them off to JTGraphics.


----------



## publiusr

Looks as smooth as CGI...wow.


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## arr531

I think someone is having way to much fun modeling. it looks great and not even finished yet. 

1. This has not been brought up yet I don't think but have you turned up any info about the running lights around the shuttle bay hanger Shaw? I am guessing since Jefferies did not put anything in his drawings that he meant to leave that as is?

2. You know I always thought that the front end of the warp nacelles was a TMP/Probert design but after studying some of Jefferies blueprints and sketches I am not so sure.now. I wonder if Jefferies had actually come up with that basic design and Probert just tweaked it like a lot of the other things.


----------



## Shaw

Thanks guys!




arr531 said:


> 1. This has not been brought up yet I don't think but have you turned up any info about the running lights around the shuttle bay hanger Shaw? I am guessing since Jefferies did not put anything in his drawings that he meant to leave that as is?


So this has been one of those elements that has had an on going debate in my head while working all of these things out... and depending on the day I could be leaning either towards or away from including them.

If we look at what Jefferies would have been using as a primary reference source, the 33 inch TOS studio model, then the absence of those lights wouldn't be surprising. For some reason (and I don't know why), those lights were not included on the 33 inch model when it was modified to match the 11 foot model in the series configuration in 1966. And the window pattern on the Phase II secondary hull is a closer match to that of the window pattern on the 33 inch model, which supports the idea of its use as a reference (along with the model residing one floor down from Jefferies' office during this period).

Jefferies was putting some thought into running lights on the new design, as seen in the deletion of the upper and lower lights on the primary hull and being replaced by a single light on the side. So one would think that because this was being thought about, he would have noted any other spots, but on the general Phase II Enterprise plans there is nothing on the sides of the shuttle bay.

However, when looking at the model construction plans, there is a round window in approximately the spot where the running lights would have been. And it could represent the running lights.

Here is the problem... on both the 33 inch and 11 foot models there is a round window in that approximate spot (the window is actually next to the running light on the 11 foot model).








This is actually why I haven't finished the window decals on the secondary hull. Sure, it would seem pretty straight forward to just trace the windows on the construction plans... until you get to this window/running light issue. I'm thinking about including a window on the decals for now, but I'm holding off on putting a hole in the model where the running lights would be until I've decided fully one way or the other.



arr531 said:


> 2. You know I always thought that the front end of the warp nacelles was a TMP/Probert design but after studying some of Jefferies blueprints and sketches I am not so sure.now. I wonder if Jefferies had actually come up with that basic design and Probert just tweaked it like a lot of the other things.


There is a lot of shared geometry, but the interesting aspect is how Taylor/Probert moved away from the lit front ends for the movies only to have them return with the TNG designs.


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## arr531

Okay, so you are saying that the front ends of the warp nacelles were going to be lit? Okay that covers the question of the lights near the shuttle bay but what about the running lights directly above and below the shuttle bay doors? It's interesting to try and figure out the gaps here,


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## Garbaron

This looks so awesome. This ship sure wold have made a great TOS Movie Enterprise!


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## arr531

Yeah it is pretty cool. I am hoping soon that he will get both the warp nacelles far enough along so that he can post some pics with both the nacelles on. I am thinking about when he gets this finished of doing a cg version based on this study model. I have never done cg and this would probably be a good one to start with.


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## lizzybus

I know this is probably old news, but i saw a show called Hollywood Treasures....they visited Brick Price who had the original moulds and casts of this very phase 2 model, he said they were worth about $100,000.00, in his opinion... but they said it was worth 10-15,000......it was incredible seeing the actual nacelles, body and saucer being handled! They also offered up the body moulds which fit the model perfectly!

Again, sorry if this is yawn time!

BTW great, inspiring work!

Rich


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## 1701ALover

Shaw said:


> I happened to notice a while after taking those previous photos that one was pretty close to one of the original model...


I'm curious...what's with the little "nipple"-looking thing in the center of your deflector dish? I thought it was just supposed to be a smooth, concave dish, like on the TMP refit.


----------



## Shaw

Thanks guys! I'm glad it is turning out as well as it is (way better than I had expected it to).



arr531 said:


> Okay, so you are saying that the front ends of the warp nacelles were going to be lit?


Yep. Along with the side grills (both on the inboard and out board sides).



arr531 said:


> Okay that covers the question of the lights near the shuttle bay but what about the running lights directly above and below the shuttle bay doors?


The shuttle approach lights will be the same as on the TOS models, but the part that came down at the top of the doors won't be there (the 33 inch model didn't have it and had actually lost the doors completely by 1969). There is the possibility that the part coming down to the doors would have been there on the studio model because Price/Loos were using an AMT Enterprise model as a reference during the building (and that model has that element).



arr531 said:


> I am hoping soon that he will get both the warp nacelles far enough along so that he can post some pics with both the nacelles on.


Sorry about the slow down on the nacelles. I have most of what I need to make the molds, but not all of it. The more expensive stuff (the Alumilite and silicon rubber) I have, there is just a handful of little things left to get (that I don't have the time or money for just yet).

I'll most likely finish putting the nacelle master together and filling any gaps in the next week so that it'll be ready when I can put everything together. The front of the nacelles will be cast as separate pieces (though not in clear) so I don't have to worry about seams on them.




1701ALover said:


> I'm curious...what's with the little "nipple"-looking thing in the center of your deflector dish? I thought it was just supposed to be a smooth, concave dish, like on the TMP refit.


Wow… it took a month before anyone asked about that. Considering the number of times people have asked about including a TOS style deflector dish, I figured when people saw that piece there it would have been asked about right away.

The TMP deflector bowl was featureless because it was a backlit element. Jefferies' deflector is still a copper bowl integrated into the whole assembly (he didn't like the separate dish) and still included an emitter in the center.

I can't show you guys the original front view directly, but there has been a couple shots of it publicly available for quite some time that might help.








So yeah, the emitter element in the center was why I had to replace the shallow bowl with a deeper one. The shallowness of the original part was fine for a TMP model but with the emitter element of the Phase II Enterprise, I was forced to make the bowl the correct depth.

Also, the emitter element that is there is a stand-in. It would actually be a rounded disk supported over the bottom of the bowl… but you shouldn't be able to see how it is being supported (though it'll be a thin rod or wire on my model). The rounded top, diameter and height away from the bottom of the bowl are correct for the stand-in piece, but I still need to make the final piece.

This follows the design style of other elements of the Jefferies' Phase II plans. In a lot of cases Jefferies included openings with overhangs or lips that hinted towards something that was just out of sight to give the Enterprise more depth and visual interest. Off hand I can think of five places on the Phase II design where he used this... unfortunately I'm not going to be able to do all of them justice because of the size of this model. I will take the time to call all of them out on the plans I'll be drawing up (specially because some of them seem to have been missing from the studio model).


----------



## StarshipClass

Shaw said:


> I can't show you guys the original front view directly, but there has been a couple shots of it publicly available for quite some time that might help.


Wow! Never gave those graphics any credence as showing an actual design element--and never noticed that those were graphics showing the Phase II!

Fantastic catch!

Also, are you saying there *are *some photos or drawings out there showing that button in the middle of the P2 deflector dish?


----------



## arr531

Well I didn't ask about the deflector dish emitter because I figured with your research and thoroughness on this that there was a method to the madness. So the front grill cap design was a Taylor/Probert doing after all. I certainly see a resemblance in Jefferies' front view blueprint and some of his sketches. I assume then the caps were going to be lit with that same blue/green color as the grills or some other color?


----------



## Captain Han Solo

Shaw,

I really like and enjoy what you are doing here. I really like this version of the Enterprise.

Great Job and looking forward to more!:thumbsup:


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## arr531

Boy, it sure is a shame there were no photos of that almost finished studio model that survived. Jefferies had even more detail in drawings that they did not even include on the studio model. Wow, can't wait to see what kind of detail those plans are gong to have.


----------



## Shaw

Captain Han Solo said:


> I really like and enjoy what you are doing here. I really like this version of the Enterprise.
> 
> Great Job and looking forward to more!:thumbsup:


Thanks!



PerfesserCoffee said:


> Also, are you saying there *are *some photos or drawings out there showing that button in the middle of the P2 deflector dish?


Drawings… yes. Photos… if you mean of the finished model part, I don't know. Most of the final parts were cast, the internal armature was in place, and the decals were ready, but the lighting, painting and final assembly wasn't done. I hope there are photos from later in the build (that include more of the final parts), but I haven't been given anything along those lines yet.



arr531 said:


> I assume then the caps were going to be lit with that same blue/green color as the grills or some other color?


Well, the thing to keep in mind is that this was all supposed to be a logical progression from TOS technology. The fact that the grills were going to be lit blue/green came from a request during TOS to have the trench grills on the nacelles have a blue glow behind them (so this wasn't a new idea). In the same way, the front of the nacelles would have been lit in a way similar to the TOS nacelles… and I think that the New Voyages/Phase II nacelles from the trailer/short they did recently is pretty close to what Jefferies would have wanted to see.

But here is the thing… Jefferies was pulling himself out of the production more and more as the model went into the final stages of being built. Without Jefferies input, I wouldn't have been surprised to see the nacelle fronts end up the way many people pictured them (and as the Smithsonian had been displaying the 11 foot model) with a red effect.



arr531 said:


> Jefferies had even more detail in drawings that they did not even include on the studio model. Wow, can't wait to see what kind of detail those plans are gong to have.


To be fair, Jefferies piled a ton of information into a relatively small space. So I'm not surprised that Price/Loos missed some of the details on their build. They might have had more time than Datin did with the original models, but they were still under quite a bit of time pressure. Had Jefferies drawn out the plans on three or four times the number of sheets of paper, I think most of the details would have been seen and included in the model. And that will be the biggest difference between Jefferies' original drawings and the ones I'll be producing, I'll be spreading out this information over quite a few pages.





I'm going into the last week of an eight week course, so hopefully progress will be a little more steady after I finish up.


----------



## Bay7

heh, seems like a shame that this phase of the project is wrapping up, its been great following your voyage of discovery.

Assuming you go-ahead and build another based on this study model, would you do a same scale ship or something larger?

Steve


----------



## RSN

I hate the fact that EVERY other Enterprise had red engine domes and not the warm orange from the original series. It is like they just went with "Common Knowledge" of what they thought people precieved it to be.


----------



## arr531

To be honest, after reading through this thread and looking at Jefferies' blueprints - I am still a little confused about what that part of the nacelles was intended to be.


----------



## charonjr

Enterprise-B had blue lit nacelle caps.


----------



## RSN

charonjr said:


> Enterprise-B had blue lit nacelle caps.


I stand corrected, MOST of the incarnations of the Enterprise, the ones that appeared for more than just a few moments on screen, had red engine effects!


----------



## StarshipClass

Shaw said:


> Drawings… yes. Photos… if you mean of the finished model part, I don't know. Most of the final parts were cast, the internal armature was in place, and the decals were ready, but the lighting, painting and final assembly wasn't done. I hope there are photos from later in the build (that include more of the final parts), but I haven't been given anything along those lines yet.


Looking forward to this! :thumbsup:










Is this what you saying is close to what you think they'd have come up with? That is, the version closest to the original ship's Bussard collectors? (There's also a version they've done that has a blue lighting effect at the front of the nacelles.)


----------



## Shaw

Bay7 said:


> Assuming you go-ahead and build another based on this study model, would you do a same scale ship or something larger?


Larger... definitely larger. 

I'd like to do a studio scale version, but I wouldn't be able to do something like that for myself. I'm considering a two-thirds (43 inches) or one-half (32 inches) studio scale version. Something large enough that lighting wouldn't be too hard and it would be easier to include finer details.

A lot will depend on how this model and my 33 inch TOS Enterprise replica turns out. This model included some significantly more difficult elements than my two-thirds scale 33 inch Enterprise, and the one-to-one scale 33 inch TOS Enterprise will be even harder (being fully scratch built from masters to molds and finally cast to final parts). A one-half studio scale Phase II Enterprise would be about the same size as the 33 inch TOS Enterprise, only it would include lighting (the original 33 inch Enterprise didn't have any, so a replica wouldn't need any).



arr531 said:


> To be honest, after reading through this thread and looking at Jefferies' blueprints - I am still a little confused about what that part of the nacelles was intended to be.


It is analogous to the domes on the nacelles of the TOS Enterprise.

Jefferies avoided adding too many labels to any of the elements of his designs that dealt with fictional technology (after all, who knows what some future technology is intended to do). But he was a strong believer in consistency, so when moving from the TOS design to the Phase II design, he kept general features in place even if he changed the design of them (mainly to make them more visually interesting).



PerfesserCoffee said:


> Is this what you saying is close to what you think they'd have come up with? That is, the version closest to the original ship's Bussard collectors? (There's also a version they've done that has a blue lighting effect at the front of the nacelles.)


Yep, that is the one. :thumbsup:





I put a little more time into the model this week… mostly working on the decals. I'm about 95% done with them, just a few small details I need to cover. The lettering is based on the series version Enterprise letters (I traced each letter off the original decal sheet). The spacing of the smaller _NCC-1701_ is from Jefferies' plans (so they'll fit in nicely) and the _U.S.S. ENTERPRISE_ spacing is unchanged from the original decal sheet (which matched how it appeared on the 33 inch Enterprise model).


_Click to enlarge_​
I've been looking over my nacelle master and think I know how I want to proceed in finally putting it together. I'll take a series of images of it as it is right now (the parts together but not glued) before I take it apart and make the final adjustments.


----------



## Gregatron

Lovely work, as usual.

I'm positively chomping at the bit to shamelessly follow in your footsteps and do a 1/1000 kitbash. That decal art will be very helpful, as was your excellent recreation of the AMT kit's decal art.


I've been searching for a conversion kit to make such a build a bit easier, with no success. Looks like I might have to do it the hard way.


----------



## Shaw

I have a ton of respect and admiration for your work at that scale. Even at the scale I'm working at now I'm constantly faced with details that seem so small that they increase the difficulty of the build. That is why I'd go bigger with another attempt.

When I finished everything up (with the final plans) I'll also make sure that an EPS version of the decal sheet is available. It should work with conversions of either the 1/350 or 1/1000 refit with a little scaling.


Below is a series of images of the nacelle master. 








This one part (the nacelle master) really has been the biggest jump in difficulty of anything I've yet attempted. And the fact that so much detail has to wait for the final parts to be cast can be frustrating at times.


----------



## Gregatron

The nacelles are far and away the most challenging part, clearly. Most everything else can be bashed together with relative ease. You've done a phenomenal job on your nacelles. I've not seen a single PII kitbash that's gotten it right...until now.

As for the decals, I'd need to get the help of someone with an Alps printer, so as to print white versions of the windows.

Of course, the TOS model was not originally built with lighting. Eventually, after the lights were added, the ship had rooms with the lights "off" because the secondary hull's structure (under the pylons) would have been compromised if they'd dug out the interior for lighting. So, they left the painted gray windows on that section, and also in a few other spots so as to make it a little less obvious.


The PHASE II model, like the TMP model that came after it, would have been built for lighting from the very start, and so all of the windows would most likely have been lit. Alps-printed, white versions of the window decals would simulate that nicely.


----------



## arr531

Those nacelles certainly do look like a challenge. I must say they are coming along nicely though. Is that a depression that I can barely make out on top and to the front of the nacelle like in Jefferies blueprints or am I just imagining one. Did jefferies mean that to be a raised section with a depression in the center of it or just a depression. After looking at the blueprints it is hard to to tell. One view it looks like it would be just a "trough" but from the front blueprint it looks like a combination of both. Maybe it is just my imagination.

After looking at a photo of the unfinished model, it is hard to tell. Ah we'll, not a life or death matter.


----------



## arr531

Okay after looking at the blueprints I have again, it is just a trough on top.


----------



## Shaw

That trough detail isn't part of the master because it would have made making the final parts way harder. Plus I can make the trough for both nacelles from scratch as separate parts way easier than I could trying to build it into the master. It is the same reason why I didn't add the turbo lifts to the bridge/B/C deck master... it was easier to do it to the final part.

Here are the basic steps I've been planning on taking with the nacelles...








So yeah, the trough is missing for the same reason that I also didn't include any of the rear end nacelle details... they would have gotten in the way of making the molds and only made the process harder in the end.


----------



## arr531

Yeah must have been an optical illusion when looking at it from the top.


----------



## Bishop37

Any news on this build?


----------



## Shaw

I've made a lot of progress…  okay, I've made some progress.

Most of what I've been doing the last month has been gluing on parts that I had either set in place or taped in place for previous test assemblies, so images wouldn't really convey much in the way of interesting progress. That and the fact that I figured the most interesting aspects of the build would come after I have both nacelles cast is why I slowed down on posting progress. Once I have the nacelles I'll be rounding the corner for the home stretch on this build.

The nacelle master gave me some trouble and I wasn't sure where or how to fix it in the beginning. The nacelle was too long, but I originally thought it was in a really bad spot (where the nacelle tapers towards the end). Part of the reason for the confusion was that the nacelle plans didn't fit nicely on an 8.5" x 11" sheet. But when I printed off a set of 18" x 24" plans, I could put the nacelle master next to the full drawing and see what needed to be done. Then it was a matter of deciding if I wanted to risk attempting the fix on a part that might not survive that kind of surgery. In the end I took a chance and it all worked out.

I have a couple small details that still need attention, but for the most part, the nacelle master is ready and includes all the details I wanted built into the final parts. All the remaining details for the nacelles will be scratch built and added directly to the final nacelles.

So here is an image of about how the nacelle master looks now…








And no, the carriage part it is sitting on isn't part of the nacelle. I just wanted to see how they looked together.


----------



## eagledocf15

*Excellent Work*

Fantastic!


----------



## Fozzie

That nacelle looks the part alright!

This is one of the most interesting builds to me in a long while. I have always been interested in "what would have been" with _Star Trek: Phase II_.


----------



## Spockr

Fozzie said:


> ...
> 
> This is one of the most interesting builds to me in a long while. I have always been interested in "what would have been" with _Star Trek: Phase II_.


I'll second that. Alternate builds are fun to watch.

Regarding your Phase II "what would have been" comment; its similar to the feeling I get when I watch The Cage as a stand alone episode without all the Menagerie add-ons. The Phase II stuff is interesting to ponder especially since we don't have any Trek on TV at the moment...


----------



## Shaw

Thanks guys!




Spockr said:


> Regarding your Phase II "what would have been" comment; its similar to the feeling I get when I watch The Cage as a stand alone episode without all the Menagerie add-ons. The Phase II stuff is interesting to ponder especially since we don't have any Trek on TV at the moment...


I'll usually watch both "The Cage" and "Forbidden Planet" back to back because of their similarities (I've always felt like Star Trek was originally intended to bring the quality and feel of "Forbidden Planet" to series television).



Here is another series of test assembly shots… mostly to see if the model is looking like what I've imagined rather than to see if things are fitting together.








Even with the missing elements (mainly the weapons assembly and a second nacelle) it seems to be looking about how I envisioned it. I think the painting, weathering and decals will help keep it well grounded in TOS rather than pulling more towards TMP.


----------



## Garbaron

Looks great!
And btw, at first I thought I was looking at a CGI render


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## StarshipClass

Wow! This is history coming to life


----------



## Prowler901

Stunning! This is really amazing work, Shaw. :thumbsup:


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## arr531

There he goes with those 1-nacelle shots again. No seriously she is looking sharp.


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## publiusr

It all fits.


----------



## Gregatron

Looking forward to seeing this completed. Hope all is well!


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## DEST

This is cool beyond words.


----------



## Shaw

Thanks!



Gregatron said:


> Hope all is well!


Okay, non-model update...

I gambled on a number of certification courses which ate up a ton of time and way more money than we had. Consequently, some nonessentials (phone and internet) were allowed to be shut off. The gamble paid off, I got a promotion (and much larger raise than I had expected). While the new position is time consuming, it is no where near as time consuming as the one I had in 2011-12 where I did no personal projects at all.

Today we got internet back, in a week we should be back to a place financially that I can buy the remaining things I need to start molding the nacelles (and if I mess-up, buy more of the silicon rubber). I'll also finish off the EPS for the decals and send those off soon.

Besides the nacelles, the last major physical aspect to add is the weapons assembly to the base of the dorsal. I'm currently trying to figure out the best path to completing the model. If I get it too completed physically, I face a daunting task in applying paint and decals. But at the same time I designed some of the parts with a certain amount of play where they join to other parts (how the nacelle supports meet the nacelle carriages and the nacelles themselves) so I could make sure the overall alignment of the model was correct first.

So while the model has reached a surprising stage of completion (at least it still surprises me everytime I look over at it), there is still some challenging aspects to overcome. But hopefully outside factors won't play as much a part in the near future.

I don't really have anything new worth showing, but I figure I could give you guys a better look at the model so far with higher resolution images (cleaned up a little so I could look at the model without being distracted by the background)...


_Click to enlarge_​


----------



## Shaw

I finally got some time together to start in on the box I'll use for making the nacelle molds...








When I'm ready I'll fill the remaining gaps around the nacelle with clay and pour the rubber. When it sets I'll remove the center board (and clay) around the nacelle and pour the other side. Even though these are going to be used to make two different sides of each nacelle, I'd still like to get as straight a seam to rejoin the sides as possible.


----------



## Paulbo

Yeah! New progress shots (shot)!

Out of curiosity, are you going to add some alignment "nubbins" or just use the box to align the mold halves?


----------



## Shaw

Paulbo said:


> Out of curiosity, are you going to add some alignment "nubbins" or just use the box to align the mold halves?


For these molds I plan on each side sorta standing alone. I'm going to use the same sloshing method with the Alumilite that Steve Neill used to make many of the parts for his 66 inch Enterprise kit. I used that method to make the bridge/B/C part and was happy with the thickness of the plastic and the strength of the part. There is still a number of elements that are going to require some cutting into the nacelle parts, but the materials used to build the master make it impractical to attempt the modifications on it… but it should be very easy with the Alumilite parts.

These are the steps I plan on following for building each of the nacelle bodies…








I'll make another mold of just the front of the nacelle and cast it in clear plastic.

Considering the raw, unfinished state that the parts I'll be making are going to be in, it most likely looks like I'm over engineering the setup for making these molds, but I'm considering a lot of this practice for later.

Depending on how the model turns out, I might make a second set of four nacelle halves, finish detailing them as halves (making sure that they come back together nicely) and use those as masters if I want to make them available to others. And in that type of situation I'd want to make two part molds that align nicely… or I'd hand the finished parts off to someone who is already skilled at making these types of garage kit parts.


----------



## Shaw

I spent some time working on the weapon assembly this week. The parts are still quite rough, and the main thing I've been focusing on is getting them to fit the contours of the model. Right now it is made up of three parts... the assembly body, and the upper and lower supports. The lower support was the hardest part to build because it had to match the secondary hull.

Here is a few shots of the parts put in place, they aren't glued together yet, they are just set in place to make sure they all fit together.








I think I put off making the weapon assembly for as long as I have because I felt it takes away from the elegant lines of the design, but now that I have the parts in place it isn't as bad as I thought it was going to be.


----------



## Fozzie

Beautiful work...! :thumbsup:


----------



## publiusr

Brick Price would be proud.


----------



## Shaw

Thanks!

Yeah, he liked the progress pics I shared with him back in April. I'll have to put together another set of images for him soon, I just need to build the time into my schedule.



I made some more progress on the details around the front of the secondary hull. I'll take some images of those changes soon. I'm still debating attaching the three ramp features before or after I start the painting process. I'm leaning towards after because I want the inset areas they fit into to be darker than the hull color (almost black) to make them look more recessed.

Similarly, while I'm planning on attaching the spine/fin feature to the primary hull, I'll keep the flat part off until I finish painting and weathering. The flat feature rests off the surface of the primary hull, so the underside I was going to paint black and shadow/weather around the primary hull under it.

These features (including the openings at the front of the vents on the nacelle supports and the front sides of the nacelles) seem to be something that a lot of people haven't emphasized in their attempts to bring this design to life. I get the feeling that Jefferies added these features to create areas of visual interest. Openings that go somewhere to do something all just out of view.

I think Jefferies did the same thing with the TOS Enterprise when he was forced to change the design at the last minute. Jefferies originally wanted a pretty featureless surface and had the sensor equipment behind a nose cone at the front of the secondary hull. Roddenberry, along with wanting a larger sized ship, wanted more detail. So when the Enterprise was scaled up, the rings and dish were added. The rings produced a similar effect of providing openings to something just out of view. The dish was supposed to move so it would add some more life to the otherwise static model (we never got to see the dish move and the issue of the model being too static was resolved with formation lights and the lights and fan blades in the nacelle domes). I believe part of the reasoning behind the dish being merged into the whole deflector assembly was the fact that it never did what it was intended to onscreen and he wanted to get back towards his original design.

Another area like that (Jefferies attempting to revisit his earlier design elements) is the fin/spine at the rear of the primary hull. It was part of both the smaller and larger Enterprise designs back in 1964, but ended up being reduced to the low profile spine we got with on the TOS models. He brought back the more fin like profile for the Phase II design.


Okay, so I'm sure you guys have all noticed that there isn't a lot left to do for most of the model. The real hold up is the nacelles. So here is the plan going forward…

I'm enlisting the help of my wife to help keep me on task and plan on setting aside a two day period to make the molds.

Why is this important?

Well, even after I finish the last touch up to the nacelle master and put a good couple coats of Crystal Clear Krylon on it, I'll be filling some edges around the master with clay. I don't want the oils in the clay to damage the master, so once I start that I want to move to the next step as soon as possible. The next step would be pouring the rubber, and then removing the divider and clay after it sets. But before I pour the other side I'll be coating the rubber on the first side with Vaseline. While I plan on being very careful, odds are that I'll get some on the master.

So this is a number of elements that I really don't want to have in contact with my nacelle master any longer than I absolutely have to, and this means that once I start I need to move to each of the next steps as they come up and not get distracted by other things. What I plan on is mapping out a pretty strict timeline of when I need to move from one step to the next and then having my wife help me stay on task.

Once the molds are made, I'll be heading into the home stretch. I have a couple more decal elements to finish before having them made, I think I've decided on a final color for the model (the actual studio model was going to be the same color as the 33 inch TOS Enterprise model, which in turn was the same color as the 11 foot TOS Enterprise). Because I need to add grid lines (which I'll be doing in white pencil) I'll be using Light Sea Gray rather than Gull Gray (which is my favorite substitute TOS Enterprise color). Light Sea Gray is actually the same brightness as the TOS Enterprise color and the lines should show up a little better than they did when I tested this idea on my USS Republic model (which I liked, but I need the lines to standout more on the Phase II design).

I know I've been working on this model for almost a year, but there was a lot of research involved and the model was always intended to help with the broader goal… a complete set of plans of the Phase II Enterprise (in this case, as Jefferies had intended it in his designs). I guess we'll see how soon I'm able to put out those plans, though I'm pretty sure I have all the information I need at this point and that I have a good understanding of the the design.


----------



## barrydancer

Wow, great thread. The historian in me loves it. Keep up the good work.

Did I read correct that there was an almost fully complete studio scale Phase 2 model that was almost used as the Reliant in TWOK? If so, whatever happened to it?


----------



## Shaw

Thanks!



barrydancer said:


> Did I read correct that there was an almost fully complete studio scale Phase 2 model that was almost used as the Reliant in TWOK? If so, whatever happened to it?


It was repurposed into the destroyed Enterprise for Star Trek III. Well most of it… the primary hull and secondary hull are from the Phase II model, the warp nacelles appear to be from the Reliant model's molds (the Reliant and Phase II Enterprise are approximately the same relative scale).

Brick Price kept the original molds and was later commissioned by Paramount to make a number of "studio models" of the TMP Enterprise for Planet Hollywood locations. For those models he made a new dorsal that was attached to a secondary hull (with the original window holes filled in) and then made new molds of the combined parts.

One of those Planet Hollywood models was bought and further modified to look even more like the TMP Enterprise by Ed Miarecki. It now sits in the original TMP dry dock.

But yeah, the idea of using the model in it's original form for Star Trek II was dropped because producers worried that the audience wouldn't be able to tell it apart from the TMP Enterprise… which was most likely a valid assertion on their part (but would have been cool to see).


----------



## StarshipClass

Shaw said:


>


Fantastic work!


----------



## Shaw

Thanks!



Here are a few shots of the model resting upside-down on the plans...








The main thing added is the sensor ramps on the deflector assembly.

I finished the last spots on the nacelle master and I'll hit it with Crystal Clear Krylon at the end of the week. After that I'll most likely set the following Wednesday aside from any other commitments to make the molds.


----------



## 1701ALover

Shaw said:


> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> Here are a few shots of the model resting upside-down on the plans...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The main thing added is the sensor ramps on the deflector assembly.
> 
> I finished the last spots on the nacelle master and I'll hit it with Crystal Clear Krylon at the end of the week. After that I'll most likely set the following Wednesday aside from any other commitments to make the molds.


Other than (still) not liking the odd notch-out on the nacelle pylons (it just makes for a weird shape, IMO), I'm really loving how this is turning out! Awesome work, Shaw!! :thumbsup:


----------



## Shaw

Thanks!





Small update…

So remember how I was planning on making molds of the nacelle… and kept talking about it but it seemed like I was never going to get around to it?

Yeah, I got around to it!

Here they are…








I also decided to use this batch of rubber to make molds of some other parts as I didn't have any extra around currently.


----------



## Bay7

Shaw said:


> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Small update…
> 
> So remember how I was planning on making molds of the nacelle… and kept talking about it but it seemed like I was never going to get around to it?
> 
> Yeah, I got around to it!
> 
> Here they are…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I also decided to use this batch of rubber to make molds of some other parts as I didn't have any extra around currently.


Well that looks like a good candidate for the star trek aftermarket range ....!

Your build up shows that the design actually looks Okay - beautiful work 

Steve


----------



## StarshipClass

Shaw said:


>


Looking GREAT!!!:thumbsup:


----------



## Shaw

Thanks guys!



Another small update…

I did a quick test pull from one of the molds (I have enough Alumilite White to try out some ideas) to see how it worked. Here is a shot of the master, a pull from one of the molds and one side of one of the AMT/ERTL nacelles (for a size reference)…








I'm pretty happy with the results (though I don't think I'll use this pull in the final model).

The next step for the nacelles is to build the channel elements for the top of the nacelles. Once those are ready I'll be able to make the nacelle sides and cut openings along the tops to fit the channel parts. Then it should be pretty straight forward putting those three parts of each nacelles together.

I still haven't decided when to cut the front of the nacelles off. I'm thinking after I have them together, but it would be easier to do each of the side parts before assembly. I'll most likely try that out with my test pull to see how it turns out.


----------



## Shaw

Quick update…

I'm working on the parts that will make up the channels along the tops of the nacelles. Because I need to cut openings for those in the nacelles, it'll be a while before I make any more progress on getting the nacelles together.

But as long as I have two nacelles, I set the model together upside down on the plans to take a look at all the major parts in their (approximate) final arrangement.








My only issue with it right now is that if I spend too much time looking at it I get a headache from the blood rushing to my head.


----------



## Griffworks

I'm getting more and more excited to see the finished version!


----------



## Mark2000

This is really coming along nicely. I'm glad you're doing this as it's an over looked bit of history. When people say Probert designed the refit it makes me cringe. Jeffereis left all the parts there for him, he just added the details (and a warp core, which I hate). Not to detract, from Andy's abilities - the E-D is a work of art - but the refit just isn't his alone. Kind of wish I could make one of these myself.


----------



## StarshipClass

Coolness factor nearing infinity!


----------



## harristotle

This is such a cool project, I'm really enjoying watching this come together.


----------



## eagledocf15

*aNY UPDATE*

Any updatge to the work. So far it has been a great ride!


----------



## Shaw

Thanks a ton guys!

I've been plugging away at the nacelles getting them together, but nothing visually interesting enough to share at this point. Plus they weren't my focus recently, the rigging for the model has had most of my attention.

While it should have been a pretty straight forward item to build, I wanted to make sure that there wasn't any warping of the foamcore board and that it was extra rigid. Eventually I plan to build a box around this so I have a safe means of transporting the model places.

This is a shot of the model assembled (with the nacelle master standing in while I work on the other nacelle) with the major parts aligned as they should be.








I didn't go through this step on my last Enterprise model (which is the same size) because the nacelle support pylons weren't glued to the secondary hull. This meant that I could disassemble the model to take it places. This model will be whole when done, so a means of minimizing stress on the model while transporting it will be needed.


----------



## Shaw

A little more progress on the nacelles. I spent some time on the upper channels and sculpting part of the rear detailing. There is still a ways to go on them, but at least they are starting to look the part.


----------



## Sarvek

Totally awesome work! :thumbsup::thumbsup: Keep up the great work. It is totally amazing what you are doing. :thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------



## Shaw

Thanks!

I wanted to get a look at the model assembled outside the rigging box, so I set it up on it's own and took a couple shots. The top picture is from just after I pulled the nacelles from their molds, the bottom one was a couple days ago and the middle one is from this morning. I figured you guys might want to get a better view, so this image links to a larger version…


_Click to enlarge_​


----------



## Garbaron

Looks really great!
Have you shown this to Taylor / Probert?


----------



## Shaw

So far the only person I've actively shared this with is Price. Now that it looks like it might turn out okay, I was thinking about sharing it with Probert and Sternbach (I was originally going to share the plans with them to get feedback before making them publicly available).



Small update…

I added the weapons assembly to the dorsal. I'll be spending most of my time on finishing off the nacelle details in the near future and I need to add in the last small elements to the decal sheet and get that sent off. I'm still working out a painting strategy for this model, but I might start in on parts soon.

At any rate, here are another couple shots of the model assembled (upside down)…


_Click to enlarge_​


----------



## Chrisisall

SO ambitious! Great!


----------



## Shaw

Thanks!



Small update…

I've been wrapped up in work, so I haven't been able to devote as much attention to the model as I'd like. And it'll be another week or so before I can give it the time I'd like to.

One of the issues I felt like I needed to address was the painting of the model (which looks like it is approaching pretty soon). Because I've decided to attempt some stuff on this model that will be quite different from what I've done before, I realized that I couldn't easily use my Constellation model as a guinea pig. So I threw together a few spare parts I had laying around to do a color test.

Here are the results…








The parts are sitting on a color sample I was attempting to find a good match for. And for a _quick-n-dirty_ test run, I'm pretty happy with how it turned out.


----------



## Shaw

Small update... I'm still plugging away at this model.

I had always intended to replace the front of the nacelles with transparent amber parts. Originally I thought I'd just make a mold off the front of the master nacelle, but I'm not sure if the nacelles are an exact match to it. So I'm cleaning up the front of the nacelles to make molds from them, that way I know the parts from the molds will fit correctly.

I know that I tend to show images of the model assembled quite a bit, but I think it makes it seem like the model is further along than it really is. Here is how the model looks as a collection of parts (including the masters and molds I made)...


----------



## Chrisisall

You are REALLY dedicated!


----------



## StarshipClass

Lookin' GRRRRREAT!!!


----------



## colhero

Wow! Not a fan of this design but I recognize great work when I see it. :thumbsup: Have you done the Refit or A version?


----------



## Garbaron

colhero said:


> Wow! Not a fan of this design but I recognize great work when I see it. :thumbsup: Have you done the Refit or A version?


This is actually a version that is one step BEFORE the Refit!

It's the original design that was to be used for Star Treks 2nd run entitled "Star Trek: Phase II", that eventually evolved in the ST:TMP. As TMP was a "go" all the models that had already been build for Phase II where dropped and new larger and more detailed ones were build. The Phase II design went through two more iterations, the last one being the Refit as we know it.


----------



## Chuck_P.R.

Shaw said:


> Small update... I'm still plugging away at this model.
> 
> I had always intended to replace the front of the nacelles with transparent amber parts. Originally I thought I'd just make a mold off the front of the master nacelle, but I'm not sure if the nacelles are an exact match to it. So I'm cleaning up the front of the nacelles to make molds from them, that way I know the parts from the molds will fit correctly.
> 
> I know that I tend to show images of the model assembled quite a bit, but I think it makes it seem like the model is further along than it really is. Here is how the model looks as a collection of parts (including the masters and molds I made)...


So what scale will this be, Shaw?

Looks to be similar in size to the old smoothie models, from what I can tell . . .


----------



## Chuck_P.R.

One caveat, though you might already be planing for it:

Might want to make the nacelle supports in two pieces with room
for a couple of thin wires and a flat piece of steel so someone could
add an armature if they decided too. The nacelle supports always seem to
be a problem with the kits that have had a similar Refit style nacelle connections.

And that's not mentioning the UnObtainium(shouldn't the name have been a clue?)
TOS E drooperprizes!

Those "twisters" were a nightmare! And that's for those lucky enough to get anything for their money!

I thank God every week or so when I remember missing out on that one, when I think about how I almost spent good money on one of those I still shudder!


----------



## colhero

Garbaron said:


> This is actually a version that is one step BEFORE the Refit! QUOTE]
> 
> Yeh I've seen it before and it is definitely interesting to see the metamorphosis.. but I'm so glad they settled on the Refit/A design - to me the most elegant, beautiful ship design ever!


----------



## Trekkriffic

Chuck_P.R. said:


> And that's not mentioning the UnObtainium(shouldn't the name have been a clue?)
> TOS E drooperprizes!
> 
> Those "twisters" were a nightmare! And that's for those lucky enough to get anything for their money!
> 
> I thank God every week or so when I remember missing out on that one, when I think about how I almost spent good money on one of those I still shudder!


OT I know but I remember the first time I saw an add in a sci-fi magazine for the Unobtanium Enterprise. It sure looked nice in the ad. I was really frustrated that I didn't have the funds needed to get one. I'm glad I didn't now!


----------



## Chuck_P.R.

Trekkriffic said:


> OT I know but I remember the first time I saw an add in a sci-fi magazine for the Unobtanium Enterprise. It sure looked nice in the ad. I was really frustrated that I didn't have the funds needed to get one. I'm glad I didn't now!


You and me both, brother!


----------



## Shaw

Wow... lots of activity here.

Okay... the model is 1/500th scale (the same as my two-third studio scale 33 inch model and the one-sixth studio scale 11 foot model I just started) or approximately one-third studio scale.

The primary and secondary hulls started out as AMT/ERTL refit parts. In hindsight, not quite the shortcut I thought it was going to be. I found that the primary hull wasn't that good a match and ended up spending WAY too much time getting it to look right. The secondary hull was worse. Besides building a whole new aft third, I found out that the spots where the nacelle support attached didn't really extend into the hull. So when I removed the attachment bases, I had to construct a way for the nacelle support pylons to slot into. And then there is the area where the dorsal attaches. That was a massive hole that had to be filled and re-enforced. I thought I might get away with the deflector assembly, but the base where it attached to the secondary hull wasn't round (so I cut it off and made a new one) and the bowl was way too shallow. Had the deflector bowl been nearly featureless, this might not have been a problem, but there is an emitter part in it, so to make it look correct, I constructed a new deeper bowl.

So yeah, I could have built both in a fraction of the time I spent modifying them... but I didn't know that until I had already invested a ton of time into the model.

The nacelle support pylons are actually very heavy duty, mainly because I followed Jefferies' design. But yes, there is a long "U" shaped section of heavy gauge coat hanger wire in each that actually make up the lower attachment element. Getting that wire into the shape I needed wasn't easy, which is saying a lot as I can bench press more than I weigh. So between that and the fact that the nacelles are hollow (and weigh very little), I'm not worried about sagging (just making sure that alignment is correct on the first try).

One of the cool aspects about this design (that wasn't used in the studio model) is the wing-like cross section of the nacelle support pylons (which echos the cross section of the dorsal). It isn't a big deal that the studio model didn't go with that, and I doubt many people would notice, but it is cool that it was something Jefferies was giving a lot of thought to.

Jefferies had some great ideas on how to make this design more visually interesting which I think people will like, but I'll hold off on pointing them out until the model is done and you guys can see them as part of the overall look of the design. Short of lighting and my lack of model building experience (which I hope people take into account when viewing the final model), this should be a pretty good representation of how Jefferies envisioned the Phase II Enterprise would look.


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## StarshipClass

Shaw said:


> Wow... lots of activity here.
> 
> Okay... the model is 1/500th scale (the same as my two-third studio scale 33 inch model and the one-sixth studio scale 11 foot model I just started) or approximately one-third studio scale. . . .
> 
> Jefferies had some great ideas on how to make this design more visually interesting which I think people will like, but I'll hold off on pointing them out until the model is done and you guys can see them as part of the overall look of the design. Short of lighting and my lack of model building experience (which I hope people take into account when viewing the final model), this should be a pretty good representation of how Jefferies envisioned the Phase II Enterprise would look.


Fascinating info! Thanks!

Looking forward to seeing the model in all its accurate glory!:wave:


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## Chuck_P.R.

Shaw said:


> Wow... lots of activity here.
> 
> Okay... the model is 1/500th scale (the same as my two-third studio scale 33 inch model and the one-sixth studio scale 11 foot model I just started) or approximately one-third studio scale.
> 
> The primary and secondary hulls started out as AMT/ERTL refit parts. In hindsight, not quite the shortcut I thought it was going to be. I found that the primary hull wasn't that good a match and ended up spending WAY too much time getting it to look right. The secondary hull was worse. Besides building a whole new aft third, I found out that the spots where the nacelle support attached didn't really extend into the hull. So when I removed the attachment bases, I had to construct a way for the nacelle support pylons to slot into. And then there is the area where the dorsal attaches. That was a massive hole that had to be filled and re-enforced. I thought I might get away with the deflector assembly, but the base where it attached to the secondary hull wasn't round (so I cut it off and made a new one) and the bowl was way too shallow. Had the deflector bowl been nearly featureless, this might not have been a problem, but there is an emitter part in it, so to make it look correct, I constructed a new deeper bowl.
> 
> So yeah, I could have built both in a fraction of the time I spent modifying them... but I didn't know that until I had already invested a ton of time into the model.
> 
> The nacelle support pylons are actually very heavy duty, mainly because I followed Jefferies' design. But yes, there is a long "U" shaped section of heavy gauge coat hanger wire in each that actually make up the lower attachment element. Getting that wire into the shape I needed wasn't easy, which is saying a lot as I can bench press more than I weigh. So between that and the fact that the nacelles are hollow (and weigh very little), I'm not worried about sagging (just making sure that alignment is correct on the first try).
> 
> One of the cool aspects about this design (that wasn't used in the studio model) is the wing-like cross section of the nacelle support pylons (which echos the cross section of the dorsal). It isn't a big deal that the studio model didn't go with that, and I doubt many people would notice, but it is cool that it was something Jefferies was giving a lot of thought to.
> 
> Jefferies had some great ideas on how to make this design more visually interesting which I think people will like, but I'll hold off on pointing them out until the model is done and you guys can see them as part of the overall look of the design. Short of lighting and my lack of model building experience (which I hope people take into account when viewing the final model), this should be a pretty good representation of how Jefferies envisioned the Phase II Enterprise would look.



Forgive me if this has been covered, but 1/500th of what length?

I haven't seen any of the phase 2 plans so I don't know what the length was meant to be. Do you have any links to Phase 2 plans?

I'm assuming she was meant to be at least 947 feet, probably longer.
Enquiring minds wanna know!!!


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## Shaw

1/500th of 950 feet for the Phase II Enterprise. This is an ideal scale for the TOS Enterprise because the primary hull is 417 feet (5004 inches) in diameter, so a 1/500th scale model would have a 10 inch diameter primary hull. While the diameter of the primary hull changed for the Phase II Enterprise, the length of the secondary hull stayed almost the same (340 feet for TOS, 343 feet for Phase II). So this model should be 22.8 inches long when finished.

Which brings up an interesting aspect of the studio models... they don't always match the idealized over all length. My model of the 33 inch Enterprise is about 22.5 inches long, or at 1/500th scale that would be an overall length of 937 feet. Because the Enterprise is made up of four primary components, the final arrangement of them can effect the overall length. So I generally use the components dimensions as a gauge for scale rather than the overall length.

But yeah, Jefferies had a lot of this stuff worked out, including an internal coordinate system for identifying where things would be within the Enterprise.


_Click to enlarge_​
Are there plans? Not yet, at least not complete plans.

This model is a research tool for drawing up complete plans of Jefferies' version of the Phase II Enterprise (I'll go back later and draw up plans that reflect the changes that arose in the construction of the studio model by Brick Price and Don Loos). But there are elements available currently. I did a clean up of some Phase II Enterprise plans back in 2007 (which you can find a copy of here).

I had started on plans back in 2007, but then realized that I didn't have enough information to complete them. Because I didn't want to inject my ideas into the design, I shelved the project. Then in the summer of 2012 I was contacted by someone with a lot of information about the Phase II Enterprise and decided to give it another shot. Of course, to draw up plans of something, you need to know the subject, and I realized that I didn't really _know_ the Phase II Enterprise, so I decided to build it as a means for learning.

I'm a strong believer in active learning. Looking at plans and drawings is passive, constructing what is on the page is active. And building this model I saw things in Jefferies drawings that I hadn't when all I was doing was looking at them. So this process of building a study model is an important one for me. This was how I worked out the errors in my 33 inch Enterprise plans (for which I built two study models) and how I'll work out the arrangement of all the details in my plans of the 11 foot model (in the model I just started).

So there will be plans of the Jefferies' Phase II Enterprise released soon. But because I want to include some background history on the design and construction, I need to get approval first. I've been given a lot of information, but not all of it can be _on the record_, so I want to make sure that I haven't included anything I shouldn't have.


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## RossW

I'm really looking forward to reading whatever history you put out, Shaw. This period of Star Trek history fascinates me and I love the fact that Jeffries got to design a refit.


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## Chuck_P.R.

fantastic info, shaw! thanks!


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## arr531

A great basic diagram Shaw and good info. I can't wait to see what those "visually interesting" details are.. I will say it again, I still think this would have been great to see on the big screen.


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## Shaw

Thanks!

Yeah, the sad part is that I know that some of these features aren't going to be showcased the way they should on the scale of my model. And even taking the time to point them out and discuss them in the plans isn't going to be the same as having gotten to see those elements in action.

The key reoccurring theme in Jefferies' plans are openings that lead to _somewhere_, always just out of view (and in the shadows). One of the best examples is the grills towards the front of the nacelles and on the support pylons. Both have an open area towards the front... _why?_ Of course it doesn't really matter, but it draws the eye to the feature. Similarly, there are lips and overhangs that lead to _somewhere_ (dark and in the shadows). Around the deflector assembly the ramp features extend out from under such a lip around the end of the box features... _why?_ And the linear accelerator housing isn't flush against the top of the primary hull, it acts like an overhang hiding _something_ in the shadows. And even though I couldn't replicate it at this scale, the stair steps leading to the deflector bowl are actually nested rings that lead back into the shadows.

My impression is that Jefferies really took the idea that the Enterprise was _plane_ to heart and wanted to add elements that were visually interesting, but not violating his overall view of spacecraft in the Trek universe.

Lets take a scene from the TOS episode _The Corbomite Maneuver_ and put the Phase II Enterprise in that situation. The Enterprise is caught in a tractor beam and it is trying to break free. Normally when the Enterprise is running, you see the plasma at the front of the nacelles. When it engages warp, the large areas behind the grill work would glow blue (brighter as more power is applied). Similarly, the impulse engine openings glow orange/red as more power is applied to them. In that episode Kirk pushes the Enterprise to the very edge (we see this as a console indicator and Scotty being worried). On the outside you might start seeing a reddish glow from under the grills in the openings in front of them towards the front of the nacelles and on the support pylons, and you might start seeing a reddish glow from under the linear accelerator housing. Both of these indicating that the engines are being pushed to their very limits.

Lets take another scene from a TOS episode, _The Paradise Syndrome_. The Enterprise is trying to deflect an asteroid. Normally we have the copper deflector bowl with a silver emitter element hovering towards the base (assumed to be on some rod, but not visible). Under normal operation, these are passive features, but when the Enterprise is attempting to deflect the asteroid we start seeing a glowing behind the emitter reflected on the surface of the copper bowl. As the power increases we start to see a glow from the shadows of the rings around the bowl as well.

The thing is, you have a bunch of areas in shadows that are just out of sight. And during these extreme situations you can have glowing coming from those areas, again, from just out of sight.

To me this is a better idea than the unused one for the deflector dish on the TOS Enterprise of it being able to be pointed. Even on a massive model like the 11 foot Enterprise, that movement wouldn't have shown up well onscreen. But things that are normally dark starting to glow would show up nicely... specially by the late 1970's television standards.

I would loved to do a studio scale Phase II Enterprise just to be able to do these types of things justice. But I think (and I'm still looking at the plans for this) that I might be able to pull it off on a half studio scale replica. Odds are that my best option is to enlist a talented 3D artist to build a version that could be lit this way.


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## 1701ALover

Hey, Shaw...any news to report?


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## Shaw

Oddly enough, I started back in on the nacelles yesterday.

So I need to get the front end of them cleaned up and nice enough to make molds of them, but one of the things I need to address is the openings at the front end of each of the upper channels (which you can sorta see here). I left them open to let the nacelles breath (I wanted to make sure everything inside had cured well), but now I need them closed up because they are going to be submerged in silicon rubber when I make the molds. I was debating just filling them with clay because they are going to get cut off in the end… but the shape will be part of the molds (and part of the final clear parts that will be put back on), so I figure I need to take the time to do them nicely.

The other thing I was debating yesterday was putting the long grill elements on in the side channels. I'd like to do them now when it is easier to make sure that I get them aligned and spaced right, but then again they aren't going to be the same color as the rest of the nacelle… they need to be painted silver. And on top of that, on the studio model they would have been back lit blue… but I'm not lighting this model. I was thinking at one point of painting the channel blue, painting the ribs silver and then assembling the parts, but that seemed like it would be asking for problems. At this point I'm thinking about putting those elements together and going all silver for both the channel and ribs, then going back with light blue colored pencil and accenting between the ribs.

The main thing is that I'm looking at finishing the model whole before I get to do the overall painting. I don't usually deal with the whole model when I've done Enterprise models in the past. I generally have the nacelles and their supports as single pieces and the primary hull, dorsal and secondary hull as a single piece. But in the case of this model, the finished product is going to be a single solid model (all my other Enterprise models I can still remove the nacelles and supports because they aren't glued together).

Oh, and I'm going to get some EasyCast clear resin this week and I'll be doing a test with the transparent amber dye so that I'll get to see how that all works. I know that the nacelles were intended to use the visual language of TOS (amber front ends, blue glow in the grills), but the studio model didn't reach a state where those things had been applied. So in this case I'm trying to convey the approximate feel.

I have been doing some research on how I would light these elements on a future (larger) version. I'll most likely make the front ends either clear or very slightly amber and then frost them. And for lighting them I'd use flicker LEDs (because there wouldn't be any spinning cage like on the TOS nacelles) to give an active energy effect.

This design has so many possibilities for bringing it to life with lighting that there are times I wish this model wasn't going to be static. But at the same time, I needed to learn the design first and this size model restricts some of those possibilities.

I'll post some new photos of the nacelles later today.


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## eagledocf15

*Great work!*

I love this thread!


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## Shaw

Thanks!

I did make some progress on the nacelles, here are a few shots of them...








I was test fitting a piece for the upper channels, but it is too wide for how it is supposed to look. But I did patch the holes at the front of the channels and once I'm happy with the fronts I'll make molds.

Taking another look at the primary and secondary hulls, I think I'm pretty close to what I want from them. I figure one more primer pass and I'll start in on the base color. I'll mainly focus on the primary hull because I don't want to do much near where the nacelle support pylons attach.


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## Chrisisall

Niiiiice.


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## harristotle

Looking good!


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## arr531

Very nice work. I wonder did you ever come up with the color for the grills at the front? A metallic silver or a dark color like black?


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## Shaw

They'll be silver/steel (basically, silver weathered with steel) with the opening in front of them weathered to show a stronger shadow than the model would normally produce (so you get the idea that the opening leads to some place under the grills). This is the same effect that I'll also use on the grills on the nacelle support pylons (which have a similar opening along the front of them).

Now that you bring it up, I just realized that I still need to make those parts. I made one grill for the nacelle master and one for one of the pylons, but they were just stand-in pieces to see if I was going to get the look I wanted. I need to make the final pieces (that will fit better than the stand-in versions) still.




And while we're on the subject of the nacelles, I'm still working on learning to get the best results from using clear resin so I can have very nice front end caps for this model's nacelles. And I realized that what I needed was a vacuum chamber to help degas the resin to make sure it didn't have any bubbles in it.

Okay… how do we do this on a budget?

Then it hit me… I have these Wire Cube Shelving things and I can get these vacuum bags. If I build a completely enclosed cube (re-enforced with zip ties) and put it in one of these bags with whatever I'm casting inside the cube, I should be able to create a reasonable enough vacuum to degas the clear resin (which takes a long time to set up anyways).

So with that in mind, I thought I would like to experiment with this a bit to see what I could possibly pull off. But experiment with what?

The Enterprise of course!

But not just any _Enterprise_. I figured if I was going to encase something in clear resin, it should be something I've wanted for almost as long as I've wanted a replica of the 33 inch Enterprise… that being the 3 inch Enterprise.

This is, after all, a test. So I didn't want to go all out on building a replica (while I'm in the middle of going all out building other replicas), so I figured a reasonable facsimile would due for what might not work at all.

This is what I ended up with after a few days work (yes, it'll be painted silver later on)…








It is a modified 1/2500 scale Enterprise… which mainly entailed removing details that weren't on the original 3 inch models. The biggest problem with it is that, well, it is _big_. It is about 4.5 inches long, so about 50% longer than the ones built for the show.

*- begin edit -*​
Because I already had the measurements, here are some plans of the second 3 inch Enterprise for anyone wanting to make a replica.


_Click to enlarge_​
The main difference between the second model (in the lusite) from the first model (used in both _The Doomsday Machine_ and _Catspaw_) is that the nacelle support pylons are moved forward a bit. Otherwise, everything else is the same from what I can tell.

*- end edit -*​
Hopefully in the end it'll look cool. And hopefully it'll help produce the parts for this model that I've been envisioning.


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## arr531

Oh another question - were both sides of each nacelle going to have that backlit blue-green color or just one side of each nacelle?


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## Shaw

Both sides.

Actually, it is on my _to do_ list to research the evolution/redesign of the nacelles for TMP that resulted in only the inner grill work being lit (and having a different grill pattern). It doesn't strike me as an obvious choice for lighting the nacelles, even when looking at some of the early TMP drawings. The main place it makes sense would be as an aid to a visual effect planned on for connecting the nacelles (I seem to recall a TMP painting showing an energy effect between the nacelles).

If I was to take a stab in the dark, I'd guess that the Phase II Enterprise was intended to light up more because it was going to be on TV where as the TMP Enterprise was going for a more subtle effect because it was intended for the big screen. This might also be the reasoning behind the TNG Enterprise having nacelle effects more like what was intended for the Phase II Enterprise.


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## Opus Penguin

I purchased a metal Enterprise like this, in smaller scale like in TOS episode, from a fan on the RPF forum. I was hoping to get a second so I had one that was in Lucite and one out. Unfortunately he stopped making them. I am hoping someone decides to make them again so I can do the Lucite one.


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## harristotle

Shaw said:


> Both sides.
> 
> Actually, it is on my _to do_ list to research the evolution/redesign of the nacelles for TMP that resulted in only the inner grill work being lit (and having a different grill pattern). It doesn't strike me as an obvious choice for lighting the nacelles, even when looking at some of the early TMP drawings. The main place it makes sense would be as an aid to a visual effect planned on for connecting the nacelles (I seem to recall a TMP painting showing an energy effect between the nacelles).
> 
> If I was to take a stab in the dark, I'd guess that the Phase II Enterprise was intended to light up more because it was going to be on TV where as the TMP Enterprise was going for a more subtle effect because it was intended for the big screen. This might also be the reasoning behind the TNG Enterprise having nacelle effects more like what was intended for the Phase II Enterprise.


Very interesting insight!


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## 1701ALover

Hey, Shaw...don't mean to be a pest, but has there been any recent progress on this project?


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## Shaw

Well, I hit the nacelles with another coat of primer about a week and a half ago, but that is about it.

I have a bunch of excuses… work (which is the excuse for not working on any of the models recently), waiting for silicon rubber (which I now have), and waiting to send off the decals until I have the graphics for the one-sixth TOS Enterprise ready (which is a ways out). The thing is, the actual reason is fear. The more I work on these models, the more I have invested in them and the more I have to lose if I screw-up.

So yeah, the model looks really close to being done… which is why it is so much harder for me to work on it than models which are at much earlier stages.

I need to bite the bullet and push forward on this. I need to make molds of the front of the nacelles, cast clear versions, cut off the original fronts and add the clear replacements. It is the _cutting off_ of part of the nacelles which has slow the process to a crawl. And that is even with the knowledge that I can make replacement nacelles if I need to.

Don't worry about being a pest… I need to move forward on this and knowing that there are people interested in it helps motivate me.


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## 1701ALover

Cool! Definitely looking forward to seeing more progress, but totally understand other commitments...been there, done that. 

My modeling "Everest" is the 1:350 refit. I have an original-release that I bought when it first came out, and got as far as building and puttying before my living arrangements suddenly changed, and then I've moved around several times since, and haven't been able to get back to it for lack of space to work, time, and money. Someday....


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## harristotle

I went back and reread this whole thread and it's absolutely amazing the work you've done! I'm following this with keen interest. 

I'm building all the 1/2500 kits with lights and want to represent every Enterprise iteration to include the phase II. I've got a couple questions, but can only remember one right now. 

Can you elaborate more on the deflector or provide maybe a side profile sketch that's cutaway. I'm trying to visual what the emitter looks like that you mention, but don't think my vision is matching up with what it's supposed to be.


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## Allansfirebird

I'm immensely impressed with all the work you've done, Shaw, and I shall always be a fan of your schematics!

I had a quick question for you: I can't remember if it was earlier in this thread, but I remember you mentioning you were next going to work on drawings of the ST:TMP Enterprise as it was designed and built by Robert Abel's group, without the changes made by Doug Trumbull. Is this project still in the pipeline?


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## Shaw

Thanks guys!



harristotle said:


> Can you elaborate more on the deflector or provide maybe a side profile sketch that's cutaway. I'm trying to visual what the emitter looks like that you mention, but don't think my vision is matching up with what it's supposed to be.


Sure.

The sketch below shows the front of the secondary hull (without the dorsal or weapons platform). It shows one of the major design elements that Jefferies used on the Phase II Enterprise, overhangs which leave open area in shadow and out of the view of the camera. These areas add to the visual interest of the model as the viewer is left to wonder what is just out of sight.


_Click to enlarge_​
Sadly, at 1/500th scale (or about one-third scale to the filming model) I can't replicate all of these elements on my model. That is part of the reason I'd like to make another attempt at this model at studio scale to better show what Jefferies intended.




Allansfirebird said:


> I had a quick question for you: I can't remember if it was earlier in this thread, but I remember you mentioning you were next going to work on drawings of the ST:TMP Enterprise as it was designed and built by Robert Abel's group, without the changes made by Doug Trumbull. Is this project still in the pipeline?


Yes, mainly I'm still doing data collection on this. One of the main things that was changed was the removal of a ton of pin striping all over the model, and I want to make sure to document that aspect because people might want to replicate it as decals for their models.


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## StarshipClass

Shaw said:


> Yes, mainly I'm still doing data collection on this. One of the main things that was changed was the removal of a ton of pin striping all over the model, and I want to make sure to document that aspect because people might want to replicate it as decals for their models.


I'm really interested in that intermediate version, too. 

One question I've got about it and you probably know right off the top of your head: was the Aztec paint design going to be part of the first, red pinstriped, non-self-lit version of the ship as built? 

And maybe I'm conflating a couple of different versions of the ship. 

My impression so far is that there was an original red-pinstriped version as depicted in the original pre-production artwork that essentially upgraded the Phase II to the motion picture version of the ship.

Then, it seems, that there was a version of the ship with many elements of the first version that changed some finer details and perhaps did away with the pin striping (or at least some of it)?

Then there was the final, (exterior self-lit) production version of the ship that we saw in the movies (with some relatively small changes visible in each movie). 

The later non-self-lit version was obviously built and photographed to some extent so I realize that version was completed but was an earlier version ever completed? Did the version as built have the red pin-striping to the degree depicted in the various artwork? The few pics I've found make it difficult to tell if it's there or not.

I have been looking on the net but haven't found yet found anything definitive and completely describing each stage of development. And what are the most commonly accepted names for each version of the ship?

I've seen where you refer to the intermediate version as the Taylor/Probert version but does that cover more than one version of the in-between stages of development?


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## Gregatron

As I understand it, the process went like this:


* Jefferies designed the PHASE II ship. The model was built, then abandoned when the TV series mutated into the first movie.

* The design was reworked by Taylor/Probert/etc. into what was essentially the Refit we know (but with the pinstriping, different Bridge/planetary sensor, etc.).

* The Refit studio model was constructed. Many photos taken during lighting tests (which feature the mdodel without aztecs, livery, or any other marking or fine detailing) were eventually used on licensed and publicity materials.

* The Taylor/Probert configuration of the model WAS completed, with full aztecs and pinstriping.

* Eventually, the details were reworked--pinstriping removed, Bridge/planetary sensor replaced, etc.--thus turning the model into the final TMP ship that we know. (And, during that process, lighting test shots of the model--sitting in drydock--without any markings were again used for publicity and licensed materials).


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## StarshipClass

Gregatron said:


> As I understand it, the process went like this:
> 
> 
> * Jefferies designed the PHASE II ship. The model was built, then abandoned when the TV series mutated into the first movie.
> 
> * The design was reworked by Taylor/Probert/etc. into what was essentially the Refit we know (but with the pinstriping, different Bridge/planetary sensor, etc.).
> 
> * The Refit studio model was constructed. Many photos taken during lighting tests (which feature the mdodel without aztecs, livery, or any other marking or fine detailing) were eventually used on licensed and publicity materials.
> 
> * The Taylor/Probert configuration of the model WAS completed, with full aztecs and pinstriping.
> 
> * Eventually, the details were reworked--pinstriping removed, Bridge/planetary sensor replaced, etc.--thus turning the model into the final TMP ship that we know. (And, during that process, lighting test shots of the model--sitting in drydock--without any markings were again used for publicity and licensed materials).


Ah, great! Thanks for the info! :thumbsup::wave: That helps me get everything straight in my head.

As I stated, I had thought there were perhaps 2 different interim versions but apparently it was the artwork and design for the interim that I was thinking of _in addition to_ the model _as built_ progressing in small stages with Aztec design and other tweaks according to Taylor and Probert until finished complete with pin striping, etc. as shown in the Mike Minor painting. 

_After that _was the ST:TMP version as shown in the movies with external lighting and other significant structural detail changes after the air conditioning drip incident.

Excellent to know that we're talking about 3 different major revision models with only the Phase II not actually carried to physical completion (though, with information Shaw has found out about it, seems to have had most of the construction details nailed down in addition to the variances with the blueprints).

So, to my way of thinking, a great kitbash would be turning out a 1/350th of the Taylor/Probert design as built. It looks as though Shaw has already been digging up a lot of great details in addition to what is on the net.:thumbsup:


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## Allansfirebird

Thanks for confirming that, *Shaw*, I'm eager to see how the final plans turn out. For some reason, that intermediate version of the Big E has always been a favorite of mine.

From what I've read, *Gregatron's* history seems accurate. Robert Abel & Andrew Probert designed the Enterprise with the pinstriping and different hull details. The water damage that occurred to the model following the hiring of Trumbull was what inspired him to redesign and refinish it. IIRC, he also had the model makers redo the internal wiring. I might be confusing that with when ILM refurbished it at a later time, though.


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## Shaw

I'm not sure to what degree I'm going to document all the differences, because (for example) the aztec pattern on some areas (like the rear quarter of the nacelles) is different from the final version. I'm not sure that I'm up to documenting those types of changes, nor do I believe I have enough reference materials to be sure I could catch all the differences.

I know that people are going to be interested in converting a TMP Enterprise, so I'll most likely gear everything I do as far as plans and decal graphics towards altering the 1/350 kit. I think doing all the pinstriping on a smaller model would be significantly harder and not show as well.


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## publiusr

I have often wondered what Taylor would have wanted his idea of the Enterprise to be. He didn't like the empty space and wanted something more compact.

On the subject of the Phase II, I seem to remember that the docking port for the travel pods were pentagons.

I was taking apart a spent Sharpie Ultra Fine marker-pin the other day. I removed the nib, and just happened to look at the hole left behind--it was pentagonal!

Not only that, but it was about as wide as the circular indentations of the 1/537-ish refit.

It was quite narrow, and if you were to cut half the pens length, and install it inside the secondary hull, a thin metal pen out the side might just support the whole model, if you seat the pen side-ways inside the sec hull as a cross member.


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## Shaw

It is an interesting idea, but the secondary hull of this model has been closed up since March of 2013... plus I filled it to the point that it is actually a solid part.

The pentagon door on this model will be a decal inside an inset circle. It is another example of compromising details because of the small size of this model.




Update...

I was able to string together some time over the last few days and made the molds and cast the nacelle front caps.








I still need to trim them to the right size and shine them up a bit, but they turned out nice.


----------



## Chrisisall

Great work bro!


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## Maritain

Wow, looking very sharp and clean!


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## Garbaron

(will keep giving feedback here not at SFMA) 

This loosk so great. 
Thx for goint through the trouble to recreate this lost Enterprise.


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## Shaw

Thanks guys!

No worries, this is the _thread of record_ for this build. No other thread on this model has as complete a record of what I've been doing.


And in this case, what I've been doing is cutting down the nacelle fronts and I cut off the front of one of the nacelles. Here is how that test fitting went...








I had made way too much of the resin, so I put the extra into the dome molds for my TOS Enterprise. Included in the shot above is a dome I polished and hit with a gloss coat (so that is about what the finish of the nacelle fronts should look like).


----------



## RMC

will these nacelles be availible to the rest of us ?


----------



## Shaw

Here is a quick test assembly with the new nacelle fronts in place...








Just wanted to see it all together.






RMC said:


> will these nacelles be availible to the rest of us ?


I don't think I can make end user friendly versions of parts, but I've been considering making two final detail masters (one of each nacelle) to give to someone (like JT Graphics or DLM) to make parts from.


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## Chrisisall

YIKES! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
Looking VERY good!


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## Garbaron

Awesome!

Cant wait to see her with detail paintjob and decals applied.


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## RMC

Shaw said:


> Here is a quick test assembly with the new nacelle fronts in place...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just wanted to see it all together.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think I can make end user friendly versions of parts, but I've been considering making two final detail masters (one of each nacelle) to give to someone (like JT Graphics or DLM) to make parts from.


 there is always shapeways.....you could put them on there


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## Paulbo

He could ... if they were 3D computer models.


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## harristotle

Paulbo said:


> He could ... if they were 3D computer models.


3D Scanners solve that. 



Looking awesome! And thank you for answering my question earlier about the deflector dish. That was how I was envisioning it after all.


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## WOI

Matt Jefferies and Andrew Probert would be in awe by this.


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## arr531

Wow, it's keeps getting better Shaw. Even with that scale and having to fudge a little with some of the finer details it will still look great when it is done. I do hope you will get the oppurtunity to do a studio scale model.


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## Shaw

Thanks Guys!

Not quite an update, but I thought you guys might find this interesting. These shots include parts of my TOS (11 foot) Enterprise study model in them. The thing is, both models are at 1/500 scale. Part of the reason for building both at this scale was to be able to do _side-by-side_ comparisons (and both models should be just under 23 inches when finished).


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## Gregatron

Gorgeous.


I really need to start my 1/1000 kitbash version of this. I think I could splice together the Refit and Cheetah Productions nacelles. The nacelles are by far the hardest part to scratchbuild, as Shaw has demonstrated. 

If only someone would develop a 1/1000 conversion kit...


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## Trekkriffic

Those nacelles turned out awesome! Beautiful casting work!


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## Shaw

Thanks guys!

Any one wanting to build nacelles for converting the 1/1000 kit could use the same steps I followed... and the same plans too.


_Click to enlarge_​
The thing to keep in mind is that because the TMP Enterprise and Phase II Enterprise aren't the same size, you'd need to scale down the drawings to 53% their current size (at 150 dpi). This accounts for going from 1/500 scale to 1/1000 scale, and then sizing it up to match the TMP Enterprise's slightly larger dimensions (from when Probert rounded the ship's length up to 1000 feet during the TMP redesign).

I'd take a stab at it, but I'm having enough issues dealing with the smallness of a 1/500 scale model and trying to keep details I like. There are much better model makers out there at small detail work who could do a better job bringing this design to 1/1000 scale than I could hope to. My current plan for another attempt is at a larger size (at least double the length of this model).

And speaking of nacelles, I started cutting out parts for the additional details. Here are some shots of those parts in place (nothing glued in place yet)...


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## harristotle

I love it


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## Shaw

Thanks!


Well, at some point you have to let the model stand on it's own. After all, I can't be standing by to hold it up all the time, it'll have to deal with gravity on it's own if it is ever to be finished.

So here it is, held together with some tape (missing the nacelle support carriages at this point), but aligned pretty much on fit alone.








This is way better than I thought it would do at this point.


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## publiusr

There is an illusion of the nacelle supports being cranked a bit in the aft 3/4 view.

Nicely done.

Not phase II, but you could probably knock out a simple Planet Of The Titans Enterprise in the space of an afternoon--what with simpler shapes.


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## harristotle

You're mailing this to me after you're done right?


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## Shaw

Thanks guys!

There is a scary thought... it being in the hands of postage handlers.


----------



## 1701ALover

The Phase II design has definitely grown on me over the course of this thread. Design-wise, I'm still not sold on the weird "notch-outs" at the aft ends of the nacelle pylons, but overall, it looks like a really believable mid-way point between the original and the refit seen in "The Motion Picture". I can imagine there being a refit done somewhere along the way during the last 5-year mission (maybe in what would have been season 4?), to upgrade the nacelles, deflector dish and bridge module before the BIG refit at the end of the 5-year mission. Just a thought.  FANTASTIC work, sir!


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## Shaw

Thanks!

Yeah, it has grown on me too. I always _liked_ the design, specially for what it told us about how Jefferies saw the Enterprise. But as my research progressed and I found out aspects of the design I had missed originally, I've really fallen for it. I really need to build this model again (much larger) so I can include all the cool stuff that I can't do justice to with this small model.


Well, I was about to pull the model apart when I decided to add on a few more elements and borrowed the stand from my two-thirds scale 33 inch TOS Enterprise. I also decided to shoot it from the other side this time.








I included a shot of the original studio model under construction even though this model is more reflective of Jefferies' version of the design.


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## Chrisisall

Wow...


----------



## Shaw

Thanks!


Okay, question time...

Would you guys be interested in a model kit of the Phase II Enterprise?

I'm talking with Jim Key of Custom Replicas about the possibility of building a kit, at either 1/350 or (more likely) 1/500 (the size of this study model). The kits wouldn't be cheap (maybe in the $250 range if we go with a 1/500 scale version), but the quality of them would be nice.

Jim was talking about casting the hull elements in clear to make it easier to light the model, including doing the nacelles as part amber and part blue.

What do you guys think? Is this something you'd be interested in?





And while I'm here, a few more shots of the model assembled (I'll be getting back to work on it soon)...


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## harristotle

Looks beautiful! 

I'd love a model of it, however I stick to 1/2500. The larger scales take up too much space and the money you're talking, while absolutely justified, isn't practical for me right now. 

I imagine those interested would want to see it in 1/350 to display with the other kits available.


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## 1701ALover

Yeah, as much as I'd love a model of it, $250 is way out of my budget. And while the 1:350 is a great scale for higher detail, it's hard to display, especially in my situation, living with a roommate who doesn't share my interest. 1:500(ish) like the old AMT refit is a good scale...you can still get a decent amount of detail, and still display it in "close quarters".


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## Shaw

Oh well, I didn't think that there would really be enough interest but when Jim asked me I figured I'd see if those who had been asking for a kit really wanted one. Yeah, larger would be better, but also more expensive to produce. And the smaller the run of kits, the more expensive they need to be to break even.

Remaking this model at 1/500 scale for masters would have been a lot of work while not moving in the direction I wanted to go (which is bigger). Plus I don't have thousands of dollars to throw away on something where I might not make my money back (besides getting nothing for my time). The models I'm working on now cost a ton of money (I have more than $500 invested in the Phase II Enterprise alone, scratch building isn't cheap), so making an already expensive hobby more expensive to support other people's hobby isn't the best idea for someone who is poor to begin with.

At that price I'd need to sell 30 kits to not be throwing away my money, and 40+ to not be giving away my time for free. If there was interest enough to sell 50-70, the price would drop significantly.

Actually, if I wanted to make back what I've invested, the best thing to do is to sell each model I build as a unique _one-of-a-kind_ work of art.




I finally got around to finishing the decal graphics and sent them off to JT Graphics. Here is the final version...


_Click to enlarge_​


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## StarshipClass

Fantastic decal sheet! 

Thanks for being the pathfinder on the Phase II ship! There's not been any other research and work to this degree of accuracy and craftsmanship before so you've definitely accomplished something great in sci-fi modeling!


----------



## WOI

You really are better off making it into a 1/500 scale kit,please trust me
on this one!


----------



## Bdkmiller

I would be extremely interested. I'd prefer a 1:350 kit but I could live with a 1:500. Also I'd prefer that the nacelles be cast in clear so that I can use LED's to create the colors & lighting effects.


----------



## eagledocf15

*One or two for me*

I definitely would take one or two kits !!!!! It all depends on the size and cost.


----------



## SDF-3

Count me in for at least one!


----------



## charonjr

I'd have to sell some kits to get the money, but I would be interested. Phase 2 captured my imagination in 1976 with the anticipation of Star Trek returning. So if you do go with a limited run, let me know. I've got some kits on Ebay. And am tallying up a list of all my kits that, since I'm in an RV now, I won't be able to get to. LOL!


----------



## Shaw

Well, maybe getting to about 30 kits won't be as hard as I thought. I'll have to figure out what I can include as details on the major pieces and what will need to be separate pieces.

For example, on my nacelles I left off any details that ran along the center plane on the master because I didn't want to have to figure out how to save the detail work while bringing together the two sides. So things like the upper channel and rear nacelle details were put off until later (I actually worked on the rear nacelle details this last week).

I'll also have finished plans to work from rather than building, researching and drawing all at the same time. Considering this model's role as a research tool, I'm actually quite happy (and surprised) that it turned out as well as it has.

So here are some more test assembly shots showing the additional nacelle details. I realized the last time I put it together that I really didn't need as much tape as I had originally used, the model actually fits together pretty nicely. The nacelle carriages are still drying and I didn't want to play with them too much right now, so I didn't attempt to correct their alignment. I mainly wanted to see how the model looked with them in roughly the right positions.








And because I really wanted to see this model in action, even though it isn't finished yet, I threw together _an artistic interpretation_ of how it might eventually look...


_Click to enlarge_​


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## Chrisisall

The good work here is most impressive. No need for a phaser; I'm already stunned.


----------



## arr531

I like it - muy mucho!

I do have a question on your decal sheet. What is the ribbed black rectangular decal that you have placed to the left of the shuttlebay running lights and below the 4 circular decals? I hope I was clear enough on explaining that? I am pretty sure I know what the long thin black line decals below that are for.

I agree with you Shaw - I like Jefferies' design. He had some great ideas for the refit.


----------



## Shaw

Thanks guys!




arr531 said:


> I do have a question on your decal sheet. What is the ribbed black rectangular decal that you have placed to the left of the shuttlebay running lights and below the 4 circular decals? I hope I was clear enough on explaining that? I am pretty sure I know what the long thin black line decals below that are for.


It's for the impulse engines. I just didn't want to worry about getting the angles along the center opening right, so I figured I'd trim them to the grill part that goes there when I get to applying them.

The longer rectangles are for the fronts of the nacelle support pylons (I didn't want to have to deal with them as a physical feature on this build).

The reason for the two sets of circles is that I'm still debating which set to use for the underside of the nacelles. Because Jefferies was using the visual language of the original Enterprise to convey similar functionality in the upgraded technology, I'm leaning towards using the circles without the yellow centers because they sorta correspond to the red rectangles on the underside of the TOS nacelles.


On the subject of nacelles, I finally glued the large grill elements into place on the nacelles. In the past when they were included in images they were held in place by pieces of double sided tape. I also cut out the final grill elements for the nacelle support pylons. The part seen in some images (painted steel) was a test version, the new ones fit better.

Right now I'm trying to work out a painting strategy. I generally don't like painting the Enterprise as a whole model. And right now, thanks to the fact that the nacelle support pylons fit into the secondary hull and don't have any issues supporting the nacelles means I could address the primary hull, dorsal and secondary hull as a single part for painting (like I've done for most of my Enterprise models).


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## arr531

Impulse engines - ah I see. I was pretty sure that those long black line decals were for the front of the nacelles. Oh now that I am on the subject of the nacelle pylons - there is something I noticed on a aft view blueprint of Jefferies long ago but have never mentioned about. It appears to me as there is a short opening or something drawn on the very back side of the starboard nacelle support which seems to be the same length as the grill and in the same location but it is only on the starboard pylon. Did your research come up with anything on this? Perhaps an earlier drawing and an idea he had but than later abandoned?


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## Shaw

That is an awesome question!

Okay, back story...

Most of what Jefferies put into (or considered putting into) the Phase II Enterprise were ideas he had shortly after finishing the designing of the Enterprise for _The Cage_. The original design was rushed towards the end as Roddenberry kept changing his mind about different aspects of the Enterprise (like changing the overall scale just weeks before work on the models had to start).

In the end, _The Cage_ was made and not picked up by the networks, so for Jefferies it should have been _onto the next thing_. But he couldn't let this go. He continued to play with the idea of the Enterprise during the two years between the first pilot and the series finally going before the cameras. Some of this was thinking through how the interior of the Enterprise was arranged (which he had worked out to an amazing degree) and some was what he would change on the exterior if he could convince the producers to spend the money (which they weren't willing to, partly because they had already invested in a ton of stock footage during the filming of _Where No Man has Gone Before_).

So here was Jefferies sitting on a ton of cool ideas with no outlet for them... until the Summer of 1967. That was when he was asked to design the Klingon Battle Cruiser, and it got a lot of those design elements Jefferies originally wanted to apply to the Enterprise.

Fast forward to 1977... Jefferies is considering how to deal with the grills on the nacelle support pylons. The first thing he did was undo the change that the model builders had done... having the pylon vents face inwards (his designs called for them to face outwards). So the next question was should these grills be contained on the outward face of the pylon or extend past the rear edge like the grill on the Klingon pylons?








His early sketches didn't seem to be conclusive, and this one rear view shows what the rear pylon would have looked like with the grill area contained and with it extending past the rear edge.

In the end he decided on having the grill come close to, but not past the rear edge (it should actually be closer than I got on my study model). And that was what ended up in the final studio model plans and how it was placed on the studio model.

But yeah, most people never give that odd detail a second thought... so it is cool that you noticed it! :thumbsup:


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## arr531

This is just fascinating stuff. I have seen a lot of sketches and blueprints online but I have always wonder if there are more; that for whatever reason, were not posted online. Oh another thing I noticed about the schematic of the pII that was shown in Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan. What do you make of the vertical lines on the inside of both support pylons? Something just added bh the movie's production team? I have never seen any other drawings with this.


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## Shaw

That was a re-use of the damage control graphic and was part of the elements added to light up red in the diagram to illustrate issues. The original graphic for that part of the bridge was too small to show up well on-screen. This one better matched the Reliant graphic made for The Wrath of Khan.








It showed up the same way on the helm station graphics. Both graphics were from the original Phase II bridge, so it had been that way since late 1977.

But yeah, there was no feature there for either Jefferies' design or the Price/Loos studio model.

Interestingly enough, those features correspond to the openings at the front of the grills on the other side of the pylons though.


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## arr531

I didn't mention in my post but I also noticed it was in the same spot as the grill opening on the other side. Hmm, it would be interesting to take his plan and then composite all of his earlier ideas he had onto it just to see what it would look llike - just for kicks.


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## arr531

Maybe Jefferies stepped back, looked at those vertical lines and said, "Nah!"


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## Shaw

Well, one of the paths not taken was Jefferies' early idea of a extended spine along the secondary hull. I don't know if it would have worked, and I think it was too much of a departure from the TOS Enterprise to have been included, but it would have been interesting to see done as a study build.

The idea was dropped before the first Phase II study model (which I believe was a modified AMT Enterprise model) was done. The early study model included Mike Minor's bent nacelle supports.



Quick update...

This work on the model really didn't need a test assembly, the main change was that the ribs on the nacelle grills are now part of the nacelles. There are a few other small details that were worked on, but nothing much to show.

The reason for the test assembly was that I started work on the display base and wanted to see how the model and base looked together (the base still needs a lot of work and the support post needs adjusting).

Here are some more shots (at a higher resolution)...


_Click to enlarge_​
It seems to be coming together about the way I envisioned it, though there is still quite a bit of work to be done on the base before it is finished.


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## arr531

Looking pretty awesome. An extended spine - would you be referring to the sketch dated June 77 that he had of the weapons assembly running all the way to the back of the dorsal and extending beyond it with the man on a line floating outside the ship?


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## StarshipClass

Very cool! Love the amber tinted nacelle domes!


----------



## arr531

I have another question. The lighted deflector dish was a TMP addition and the TOS model did not have any lighting on the deflector assembly. Was there any indication that any navigational or beacon lights were going to be added anywhere on the deflector assembly? Was the nav beacons on the primary saucer the only change he made in that regards? Oh what about the beacon on the secondary hull behind the support pylons?


----------



## Shaw

Thanks guys!

I added a pearl/opalescent to the amber, it should look nice when I finish polishing them up and hit them with a clear coat.



arr531 said:


> An extended spine - would you be referring to the sketch dated June 77 that he had of the weapons assembly running all the way to the back of the dorsal and extending beyond it with the man on a line floating outside the ship?


Jefferies did some drawings that had a spine going down the back of the secondary hull with the nacelle support pylons attached to it. In the end I don't think it worked for him so he dropped the idea.



arr531 said:


> I have another question. The lighted deflector dish was a TMP addition and the TOS model did not have any lighting on the deflector assembly. Was there any indication that any navigational or beacon lights were going to be added anywhere on the deflector assembly?


There was no indication that it had been considered. I'd guess that it was Probert's idea to make the TMP version light up the way it did.

Personally (and strictly my take on the design), I'd make it so that there was a lighting element behind the silver emitter that would increase in intensity as the deflector increased in power. You'd see the glow reflected off the copper bowl, but not see what was creating the light directly.

When I draw up the final plans that won't be included in the description of the lighting of the model, it is just how I'd like to see it.



arr531 said:


> Was the nav beacons on the primary saucer the only change he made in that regards? Oh what about the beacon on the secondary hull behind the support pylons?


Yes, there was supposed to have been a navigational light/dome above the hangar doors like on the TOS Enterprise (Jefferies included it on some drawings, though smaller than it should have been). Odds are that it would have matched the size seen on either the 33 inch TOS Enterprise or the original AMT Enterprise.

The lights on the sided of the secondary hull weren't retained, but they only appeared on the 11 foot model (which wasn't used as a reference).

The change in location of the primary hull lights is interesting as the general rule was that if details were missing, then match the 33 inch model. In this case they weren't missing, they were moved deliberately. I'd guess that the marker lights on the sides of the bridge would have been retained.

I believe the phaser assembly would have lit up. The design has the emitter in the back of a cone shaped opening with a circular lens suspended over the opening. I'm guessing that the lens was intended to be the aiming mechanism, but I don't know if they planned on having it actually move or not. The main point of the assembly was to make it easier for the effects guys to line up the phaser beam with an actual location on the model.



For the fun of it I modified Jefferies' Phase II diagrams a bit to look like the TOS Writer's Guide diagrams and set them up for a comparison...


_Click to enlarge_​


----------



## arr531

A lighting element behind the emitter. That sounds like an interesting idea and reflecting off the bowl - it would be interesting to do a mock-up just to see what that would look like. I didn't choose very good wording with what I meant about the nav beacon on the secondary hull. I meant the red beacon between the pylons and the lighted dome - sorry for the confusion. Great stuff.


----------



## Chrisisall

Fascinating stuff.


----------



## Shaw

Thanks guys!



arr531 said:


> I meant the red beacon between the pylons and the lighted dome - sorry for the confusion.


That light was represented on the 33 inch model, so I'd think it would be on the Phase II Enterprise. On the 11 foot model it is part of a cluster of three lights, but only the red one was replicated on the 33 inch model during it's pre-series upgrade. Because the other two were flush to the surface, there is a good chance that they were painted over (as were a few windows) on the 11 foot model during the final stages of it's pre-series upgrade... which might be why they didn't appear on the 33 inch model.

As for my model, I'm not sure if I'll have it on there. I'd add it after I applied the decals (because of it's location) if I was going to... but I haven't made a final decision on that one or the two on the sides of the bridge as yet. But yes, they'll be on the final plans.


----------



## Shaw

Started in on painting the model and got a little more progress done on the display base.


----------



## arr531

Looks awesome.


----------



## Shaw

Thanks!

Painting is progressing. In the shots below I've gotten most of my first coat applied and have started sanding. I'll go back over it again with another coat (or two) and try to get the surface as smooth/even as possible. once I'm happy with the overall paint, I'll weather the model and apply the gloss coats, then add the decals, another gloss coat and finally a matte coat.

Included in the images is the color sample of Behr UL220-15 Frozen Pond (which is the closest match to the original TOS hull color I could get a physical sample of) for reference. The weathering is going to effect the final overall color, so I mainly wanted to be pretty close to begin with.


_Click to enlarge_​
The other thing of note in those images is the marker light on the side of the primary hull. That took a while to come up with something I was happy with, but was worth the effort.


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## arr531

Very nice. It is really coming together great. What about the sensor arrays? Last thing going on? Another observation about your decals. I noticed you have a curved version of the shuttle-bay hanger running lights.


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## StarshipClass

Looks great! Perfect color! :thumbsup:


----------



## Shaw

Thanks guys!



arr531 said:


> What about the sensor arrays? Last thing going on?


This was one of the limitations of the size of the model... I made the over hangs, but there is a back wall that shouldn't be there. The ramp features should appear to be coming out of some shadowed opening. To get this appearance I need to paint the back walls black before I install the ramps.



arr531 said:


> Another observation about your decals. I noticed you have a curved version of the shuttle-bay hanger running lights.


So the edge of the hangar deck is angled on the Phase II Enterprise... making a section of a cone shape. The curved decals should match that shape nicely. But I wanted to make sure I had options, so if it doesn't work out I'll hand place each of the elements to get the right effect.

This is also why I have two sets of nacelle circles. I still haven't decided which to use. If I follow Jefferies' intent to do everything in the _flavor_ of TOS technology, those circles would be similar to the rectangles on the underside of the TOS nacelles (which are just a red outline)... so I should use the red circles. But they are somewhat different, so maybe they are more like the circular hatch on the bottom of the TOS Enterprise... red outline and a yellow interior.

Which is also why I ordered three copies of the decal sheet from JT Graphics (which arrived last Friday). I wanted backup decals in case I mess up or want to do them differently.


I've done a little more painting, some weathering and started attaching the nacelles to the pylons.


_Click to enlarge_​
I'll give her a couple days to cure and then see how she does standing on her own.


----------



## Shaw

Okay, another _quick-n-dirty_ test assembly. Things are mostly set or taped in place... just with less tape now that the nacelles can sorta hold themselves up now.


_Click to enlarge_​
After I took those shots I put her back to rest upside-down. I'm pretty sure the attachments have cured, but we'll give it a awhile before having her stand on her own for any great length of time.


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## Bishop37

Lord, that looks so cool!


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## arr531

It looks awesome and not all the details are yet there. I do have one more follow-up question on the sensor arrays. What color were they supposed to be? Hull color or same as the main deflector dish?


----------



## Maritain

Wow,just wow! What a nice solid, clean build so far. Can't wait to see what's next.


----------



## Shaw

Thanks guys!

Now I just have to not screw it all up. 




arr531 said:


> I do have one more follow-up question on the sensor arrays. What color were they supposed to be? Hull color or same as the main deflector dish?


Originally I was going to go with the hull color, but after the "chin guard" features of the nacelles didn't show up that well as hull colored, I decided to go with Tamiya light ghost gray (AS-26), which is slightly darker than the hull color. The problem is that those parts didn't show that well when I included them in earlier shots.








So a slightly different color might help.



Update...

I did a little work on the upper surface of the primary hull, I'm still doing a bit of work on the model so I didn't put as many elements in place for this set of shots as before.


_Click to enlarge_​


----------



## RMC

cant wait to see decals on this build !


----------



## Shaw

Me too! :thumbsup:

I have three copies just in case I screw up while applying them.

Small update...

As of today, I've attached the carriages to the nacelles and started puttying them to fill in the openings for the support pylons (the openings were oversized so I wouldn't have to worry about how those parts came together. Here is how the model looks right now...


----------



## Gregatron

This is just a friggin' work of art, David. To use a cliche--you're truly going where none have gone before!

Really need to start gathering parts for my 1/1000 version, which will shamelessly copy your brilliant work, here. Love it!!!


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## Trekkriffic

Love the weathering. The color looks just right too. Just a slight olive tone, at least that's what I see with my eyes.


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## arr531

Is that a docking port I see snuck in there on that last photo?  Looking great.


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## Chrisisall

OMG. This is epic.


----------



## Shaw

Wow, thanks guys! 


Yeah, my wife calls the color green-gray and it really does seem to fit.

Yes, that is a docking port. It has been there for most of the build, but it is just a slightly recessed circle. I masked it off while weathering the secondary hull so it would stand out a bit more.


I finished sanding and painting, so here are a couple more shots (nothing too new).


_Click to enlarge_​
I tested out the decals, and they work great. I wanted to test if the marker numbers for the secondary hull would show up on the paint (as they are a very light gray), and they worked just as I thought they would.

I need to finish the weathering on the nacelles and support pylons, then start in on a gloss coat. After that... decals!


----------



## Gregatron

While there's a broad spectrum of interpretation (and lots of arguing!) in regards to the ship's hull color, I personally prefer the gray-green look, myself, so no arguments with the color choice!


The weathering is really nice, too, although I get the impression that, had it been completed, the effects miniature would have stayed pristine. Or, have you come across information indicated that weathering was intended? I was under the impression that the weathering was an artistic choice on your part.

Certainly, since the rust ring wasn't on the three-foot TOS model, it wouldn't have been applied to the PHASE II model, right? But, it looks great, here.


I also notice that you penciled in the two outermost concentric rings on the underside of the saucer. More artistic license?


----------



## arr531

I wonder if Jefferies had a reaction to what they did to his design when he saw The Motion Picture?


----------



## Shaw

Gregatron said:


> While there's a broad spectrum of interpretation (and lots of arguing!) in regards to the ship's hull color, I personally prefer the gray-green look, myself, so no arguments with the color choice!
> 
> 
> The weathering is really nice, too, although I get the impression that, had it been completed, the effects miniature would have stayed pristine. Or, have you come across information indicated that weathering was intended? I was under the impression that the weathering was an artistic choice on your part.
> 
> Certainly, since the rust ring wasn't on the three-foot TOS model, it wouldn't have been applied to the PHASE II model, right? But, it looks great, here.
> 
> 
> I also notice that you penciled in the two outermost concentric rings on the underside of the saucer. More artistic license?


There would have been weathering on the model, but yeah, for the pilot episode (and most likely movie, as I'm sure they would have copied _Battlestar Galactica_ and released the pilot in theaters to get the most out of their investment) the engines would have been pretty clean. Most of the Enterprise was to have looked the same as in TOS (even though Jefferies took some license with the actual shapes) and would have shown some weathering (and yes, it would have followed to some degree the weathering on the 33 inch model).

At one point I was going to make a dry dock for this model, but dropped the idea (as it would have been a pretty big endeavor on it's own). So I decided to show a version that would have been more mid first season (certainly after the _Kitumba_ episodes).

But you are right, the rust ring wouldn't have been there. The reason for adding it is that it let me hint towards something that was there that my model doesn't have... the upper grid pattern. The weathering on the upper surface outlines where the grid would have been, but adding it (the way it was on the studio model) would have been quite risky and harder to do right on a smaller model (this model is one-third studio scale). So you are right that the weathering pattern is an artistic choice on my part (and wouldn't be part of a larger version of the model where I wouldn't need to compromise as much).

On the lower rings, because Jefferies stated that the primary hull was to have been largely unchanged from TOS, those rings should have been there, but in Jefferies' plans only the inner most ring was ever included (and wasn't included very often at that). The inner ring helps define where the windows go, which is most likely why he emphasized it at all. Given that, I included the inner ring as an engraved feature (so that it shows more) and the additional rings as penciled in because they were part of the original design. On my final plans those outer rings will get the same line weight as the upper grid pattern (and panel lines on the secondary hull) and the inner ring will be far more distinctive.

As long as we are talking about the grid lines, rings and panel lines, when drawing up various versions of the Phase II Enterprise plans Jefferies had drawn an upper primary hull grid with the same number of radial lines as his writers guide diagram... which is fewer than were on the 11 foot model. But Price/Loos did have an AMT model on hand which had the correct grid pattern. I'm sure that before engraving the pattern on the primary hull they asked Jefferies and were told to go with the AMT pattern. So even though his drawings show a specific grid pattern, his intent was to match the one drawn on the 11 foot model. Given that, I'll be using the intended grid pattern on my final plans even though it is different than what Jefferies had drawn.

And from what I can tell, Price/Loos had the correct pattern on the upper primary hull of their model. One of the things I'll be asking Price about is how they were planning on dealing with the lower primary hull as it is featureless in all the images I have access to. Considering how hard it is to get those ring straight when engraving them (the 11 foot model's rings are pretty wavy) I wouldn't have been surprise to hear that they were going to add them by masking and then applying primer to build up an edge.




arr531 said:


> I wonder if Jefferies had a reaction to what they did to his design when he saw The Motion Picture?


Honestly, I think he might have enjoyed seeing it.

When you first see the Enterprise through the dock structure it doesn't look all that different from the Phase II design. And had it stayed like it was when originally built, a lot of people who had seen the Phase II model being built might have assumed that it was the same model.

Plus there was a good chance that Jefferies had seen the model as originally built before the release of TMP.

I hope he liked it, because it was still primarily his design... I thought it was so awesome to see on screen on opening day that when the movie was over I turned around and got back in line to see it again!


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## StarshipClass

Shaw said:


> As long as we are talking about the grid lines, rings and panel lines, when drawing up various versions of the Phase II Enterprise plans Jefferies had drawn an upper primary hull grid with the same number of radial lines as his writers guide diagram... which is fewer than were on the 11 foot model. But Price/Loos did have an AMT model on hand which had the correct grid pattern. I'm sure that before engraving the pattern on the primary hull they asked Jefferies and were told to go with the AMT pattern. So even though his drawings show a specific grid pattern, his intent was to match the one drawn on the 11 foot model. Given that, I'll be using the intended grid pattern on my final plans even though it is different than what Jefferies had drawn.
> 
> And from what I can tell, Price/Loos had the correct pattern on the upper primary hull of their model. One of the things I'll be asking Price about is how they were planning on dealing with the lower primary hull as it is featureless in all the images I have access to. Considering how hard it is to get those ring straight when engraving them (the 11 foot model's rings are pretty wavy) I wouldn't have been surprise to hear that they were going to add them by masking and then applying primer to build up an edge.


Wow! Thanks for bringing this up! I've been wondering about the various grid patterns on the different versions of the ship (and model vs. blueprints and others' CGI versions) and this answers those questions very well. :thumbsup:

SUPERLATIVE work so far! I've never seen a more accurate and aesthetically pleasing version of the Phase 2 refit! :thumbsup:


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## Shaw

Thanks!


So while I finish up on the decals, I thought it would be nice to roll back the clock to the fall of 1978 and imagine what it would have been like to sit in front of our TVs watching new Star Trek episodes.








I know I would have loved it! :thumbsup:


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## arr531

I liked what Robert Wise did with the opening credits in the Director's Cut edition from 2001. That does look nice what you have - nice and simple.


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## Shaw

Thanks. 

But I can only really take credit for the color of the text (and putting the elements together), the type style was what they had decided on for the show back in 1977.


Some progress shots... though the model is super glossy and doesn't photograph very well right now.

This was right after I finished most of the decals for the primary hull...








And this is with the rest of the decals in place...


_Click to enlarge_​
Now I just need to bring it back using some matte finish on it.


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## Chrisisall

*Replaces eyes that bugged out*


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## StarshipClass

Yeah! Too frakkin' cool!


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## Gregatron

Absolutely fantastic.


For the first time ever, to my eyes, the PHASE II design looks like a genuinely upgraded version of the TOS _Enterprise_. Which, of course, is exactly what Jefferies intended.

There have been many pieces of art, CG models, and physical models depicting the design, but most have taken major liberties (by adding TMP design elements, etc.).


It really does feel like I'm seeing the design for the first time, here. Aside from the subtle changes in shape and proportion that Jefferies applied to the existing/original saucer and secondary hull, this is absolutely believable as an upgrade of the original design.


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## Shaw

Wow, thanks guys! :thumbsup:

And to think, she isn't even done yet!

Well, I hit her with a coat of matte finish, and I also (finally) glued the hangar doors in place. I also realized I hadn't taken any shots from behind in a while, so here are a couple...


_Click to enlarge_​


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## Garbaron

Looks awesome! I think she might have made for a good TMP Ship too. 
Though I like the refined Refit we got a notch better.


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## starseeker

An absolutely gorgeous piece of model making, and an awesome effort of research. This needs a place in an Enterprise museum somewhere. 
The only thing I don't like about it is the "NCC1701" on the sides of the hull. I think once seen by Jeffries and all, the lettering would have been reduced considerably or removed. It's too big and too dark - makes the miniature look toy-like. 
But that's a reflection on their design and has nothing to do with your work. Quite astonishing, and I too feel like I'm seeing this "new" E for the first time, despite how familiar I thought I was with the design.
I learned from my dad that it's not the things that you see but the things that you don't see that tell you what kind of craftsman you're dealing with. You always look at the backs and bottom of furniture to know what you're really getting. I think the modelling corollary of that is how the model is displayed. So many times the base is a rickety after-thought that someone just sticks the poor thing on or is so overdone with lights and switches and tchotchke that you can't tell what it is you're supposed to be looking at. That is one of the nicest bases that I've ever seen. Perfect in size and subtleness and just plain class. 
A real craftsman.


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## Bishop37

I just love that ship, every time I see her.


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## 1701ALover

I agree with starseeker that the large registry number on the sides of the engineering hull seems out-of-place (even though I know Jefferies had placed it there in his designs), but otherwise, your work on this is extraordinary, and while I still prefer the refit as seen in TMP, this variant has definitely grown on me considerably through this project! Very, very nicely done, sir!


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## arr531

Looks fantastic Shaw so far. I don't think the registry number on the seondary hull looks odd or toyish at all. I liked TMP but I like this better and I still think Jefferies had some wonderful ideas for the refit. I sitll think this would have worked out just fine for The Motion Picture. I do have another question - were you going to attempt to add the compartment sitting under the lip above the hanger bay doors or is the scale of the model too small for that?


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## Gregatron

1701ALover said:


> I agree with starseeker that the large registry number on the sides of the engineering hull seems out-of-place (even though I know Jefferies had placed it there in his designs)



Question is, is this because it's a legitimately weird spot to place them, or because we're so used to seeing them on the nacelles that the repositioning looks "wrong"?


Certainly, having the numbers on the nacelles balances out the look by spacing out the hull graphics/numbers across the whole ship, and adds enough visual interest to draw the eye across the whole length of the ship when seen in profile.

At first glance, moving the numbers to the secondary hull makes things look a bit cluttered, and the nacelles less visually interesting. Or, does it?


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## Shaw

Thanks a ton for the kind comments guys! :thumbsup:

Even though this is pretty close to what I had originally visualized while working out aspects of the plans, it still seems better in person than it did on the page. Maybe I'm looking at this through a parent's eyes, but I really do like most aspects of the design.

Yes, the registry number on the secondary hull seems odd. And considering that when put back on the nacelle for TMP it was smaller, smaller might have worked better on the secondary hull too. And then to complicate things, the docking port was added at the last minute right beneath the registry number (Price/Loos hadn't added it to the studio model yet even though Magicam had already built an enlarged section of the secondary hull for the docking port).

I'm not sure what type of time pressure the production team believed they were under. Most TV series start at the end of summer, but it seemed like they wanted the pilot movie ready by late spring. I doubt that it would have taken very long to change the registry number if they ended up not liking it as it was.

But for how Jefferies had handed off the design to Price/Loos, I think this is pretty close to his intent. Once done with this I'll need to pick Price's brain to see where they believed they were going with the model's construction and finish (though considering what I've seen of their work, they really were trying to stay true to Jefferies' design).



starseeker said:


> ... That is one of the nicest bases that I've ever seen. Perfect in size and subtleness and just plain class.
> A real craftsman.


Thanks! It is my first attempt at wood burning/engraving, and it turned out better than I had thought it would.



arr531 said:


> I do have another question - were you going to attempt to add the compartment sitting under the lip above the hanger bay doors or is the scale of the model too small for that?


Well, it wasn't part of the original TOS design (and wasn't added to the 11 foot model until the series modifications), and I don't believe it was ever added to the 33 inch model (though that wouldn't have mattered here as the hangar doors for that model were lost between the second and third seasons of TOS). So I'm leaving it off this model, and because Jefferies didn't even include it on his Phase II cross section drawing, I won't be adding it to the Jefferies' plans either.

That having been said, it was part of the AMT kit, and it does help with lighting a model, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was going to be part of the studio model.



Small update...

Added on a few more small parts (including most of the marker lights). I still have some other things to work on, but it is getting to look pretty complete at this stage.


_Click to enlarge_​


----------



## arr531

Well I do agree that with the docking port there with the registry number, the logo and the windows; it does look crowded but not odd. I think I would have put it toward the end of the nacelles. It would have been more analogous to his original nacelle design - just in a different spot. I think I would have removed that back vertical line and put it there. I then would have moved the docking port up to where the dash was and put a red or black circle around that puppy to help identify it from a distance but that would be just my preference. It still is a cool design. Looking great.


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## Chrisisall

Shaw, I gotta say thanks so much for this build and documentation. It's SO fascinating. It really helps bridge the artistic jump from the TOS E & the Refit.:thumbsup:


----------



## Shaw

Thanks guys!



arr531 said:


> ... I think I would have removed that back vertical line and put it there.
> ...


It is funny that you say that as the nacelle seam lines were still there in the early TMP designs, just moved slightly forward.










Chrisisall said:


> It really helps bridge the artistic jump from the TOS E & the Refit.:thumbsup:


It does for me too. When looking at it on the page it is hard to see the TOS Enterprise in the design with some of the changes that Jefferies made (that were outside those dictated by the story), and I know part of that was the fact that he didn't really have the time to do really complete drawings. But seeing it in person with those elements in place, I could totally see people of the 70's buying this as a simple upgrade of the original (verses a more radical refit).

And I think that given how much people loved the Franz Joseph plans (which didn't closely follow the studio models), Jefferies most likely thought he had some room for the additional alterations (though for today's audience something more like the NV/P2 Enterprise would be needed).



Update...

Few more small additions, nothing too major.

I did finally add the sensor ramps. Part of the reason this took so long was that I had made those parts a long time ago... and then lost one. I looked everywhere for it, and finally decided that it would be easier to start over with three new parts (so they all matched). So I started in on them last night and finished them this morning.

Here are a few more shots...


_Click to enlarge_​


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## arr531

Looks fantastic. Was there only a docking port on the port side? Anything left? Oh have you got to the decal for the inpulse engine cover? I do recall you said had to do trimming on that.


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## Trekkriffic

Did you use any pastel chalks on the deflector dish or is the darker coloration just a product of it's concavity?


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## Shaw

arr531 said:


> Looks fantastic. Was there only a docking port on the port side? Anything left? Oh have you got to the decal for the inpulse engine cover? I do recall you said had to do trimming on that.


I used the vent part that is at the center of the impulse housing to trim the decals a couple days ago, but only glued it into place this morning. I'll be applying the impulse decals tonight or tomorrow (depending on when I get some time for it).

I only put the docking port on the port side because it was a very late addition to the design (and hadn't even been added to the studio model). It was most likely added to avoid the cost of building another hangar bay (though had the original miniature survived it could have been used as it was to have been unchanged).

The Magicam's close up section had a label "BAY 4" next to the docking port, so someone envisioned at least three others someplace.












Trekkriffic said:


> Did you use any pastel chalks on the deflector dish or is the darker coloration just a product of it's concavity?


I weathered the bowl with steal towards the rim, making the center (straight copper) somewhat darker. This was to break up the lack of features... which is a shortcoming of my model. Jefferies had included a ring (either raised or engraved, I'm not sure which) which I wasn't able to reproduce. So I weathered mostly to the outside of where the ring should have been.




Something I thought you guys might find interesting... a comparison between my model and one of the Planet Hollywood models.








On the Planet Hollywood model, the primary hull, secondary hull and nacelles are modified from Phase 2 parts. The dorsal and nacelle support pylons are unique to the Planet Hollywood models (and the nacelle support pylons are perpendicular to the secondary hull surface, bringing the nacelles closer together).


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## Chrisisall

Huh....


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## Trekkriffic

Chrisisall said:


> Huh....


Yeah. I think I know what your "huh" is referring to Chris.
That Planet Hollywood model looks like a modified Refit to me. 
Some nacelle details were modified to look more Phase 2'ish but it's basically the Refit.


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## Trekkriffic

Chrisisall said:


> Huh....


Yeah. I think I know what your "huh" is referring to Chris.
That Planet Hollywood model looks like a modified Refit to me. 
Some nacelle details were modified to look more Phase 2'ish but it's mostly the Refit.


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## Gregatron

I'm running out of glowing adjectives, here, Shaw!


Seriously, dude, just collate all of your data on the TOS and PHASE II models into a friggin' book, already. Or an e-book. Or a website. Something! You've been a fountain of amazing information, over the years, and that information needs to be collected in a handy, one-stop shop.


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## RossW

I'll second that. I love this version of the Refit and don't want to come looking for this info a few years from now only to discover HT has decided to delete older threads.


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## Chrisisall

Gregatron said:


> Seriously, dude, just collate all of your data on the TOS and PHASE II models into a friggin' book, already.


Yeah, Shaw is part of history for this effort.:thumbsup:


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## Opus Penguin

Excellent build! It is nice to see what this ship would have looked like if that series ever came to fruition.


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## Shaw

Thanks a ton guys!

Yes, I need to get around to putting all this data I've collected into a form that is easily accessible. Hopefully I can make some headway on that in the near future.

For today, test shots of the model... mainly to get a feel for what are some good angles to shoot her from. Click the images below to enlarge.

 

 

 

 ​


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## Paulbo

Super! Favorites (gut feeling) are 004 and 008. Sweet.


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## arr531

You know there is one angle I don't think I recall you ever shooting and that is from the straight front. I particulary like the top 3 in the left column and - ah heck they all look good.  Yeah I think add a straight shot from the front and aft to that montage and that would be good. You might try some typical "TMP" angles that you see posted on the Internet as well just for kicks.

There is only one thing I do not like. My preference would have been to have the red pin stripes go around and outline the hatch between the pylons instead of running straight through the hatch. I understand of course why you did this. Looks great.


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## Landru

Just WOW


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## Shaw

Thanks guys!

I've thrown together a few more...

 

 

 

 ​
And...


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## Shaw

...

 

​
Yeah, the last one I tweaked my Klingon model a bit for that image (just for the fun of it).


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## Gregatron

Seeing the TMP ship's shape and proportions "skinned" with pure TOS detailing messes with my head.

But, I love it. Magnificent job, David. One for the ages! 


Bring on the blueprints!


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## Shaw

Thanks!



Gregatron said:


> Seeing the TMP ship's shape and proportions "skinned" with pure TOS detailing messes with my head.


Actually, me too.



Gregatron said:


> Bring on the blueprints!


Hopefully I can get back to work on those in the next few days. :thumbsup:


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## Trekkriffic

Hot damn you're terrific!


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## Chrisisall

Trekkriffic said:


> Hot damn you're terrific!


Coming from you, that's high praise!
And I concur.


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## arr531

As Columbo was fond of saying, "Just one more thing sir!" What about the blue focus lense that you had in earlier shots when you were first making and testing the weapons assembly?


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## Shaw

Thanks guys! 




arr531 said:


> As Columbo was fond of saying, "Just one more thing sir!" What about the blue focus lense that you had in earlier shots when you were first making and testing the weapons assembly?


Well, before I had started work on that assembly, I had an idea for how it would go together. The idea hit a snag... the model is really small.

So there is the funnel shape at the end of the assembly, the emitter is at the center of that and across the opening is the targeting lens. I wanted the emitter to be blue, and for you to see it through a clear lens. The blue sphere I used during test assemblies was way too big, and you could hardly see a small emitter (even before there was a lens in place). I couldn't get it to work the way I wanted, so I opted for a gloss black lens that still showed the lens' features (silver ring and two vertical silver lines).








This is like having the windows and leading edge openings on the nacelle support pylons be decals on this build. The idea of the model is to get the design worked out, even if it doesn't include all the functionality at this stage. It would be awesome to have a clear lens with a blue emitter that lights up, but then again it would be cool if all the parts that were to light up lit up on this model.

In the end, this model's main goal was to learn the Phase II design, learning model building techniques was always secondary to that. The point of this model was always to nail down the design in a final set of plans and then try again with a larger scale version that doesn't require the _research-while-I-build_ method that is part of building a study model.

Hopefully I'll do better next time.


... which might be a long ways off. It has been two years since I finished my last model (the Republic) and four years since the model before that (my two-third scale 33 inch Enterprise). I'm really slow at model building (specially when I'm learning as I go).


----------



## Chrisisall

Patience in all things. -Logan Cale


----------



## Shaw

I get asked about the phaser assembly quite a bit (usually "isn't that the torpedo tubes?"), so I threw together a quick outline of how it was being approached in Phase II.


_Click to enlarge_​
Initially, all the weapons were going to fall under the umbrella term _phasers_ (as described in the writers guide), but the set designers (Joe Jennings and Lee Cole) had added in photon torpedo controls for the bridge. So my guess is that while it would have been nice to simplify the weapons, by the time scripts were being finalized beams would have been called _phasers_ and energy bolts _photon torpedoes_... but the effects would still all originate from the same spot on the model (which is why _weapons assembly_ may be a better term for it than _phaser assembly_).

The other reason for putting this together was to play around with some ideas I have about how to illustrate different aspects of the design in my final plans (I might utilize photos of my model for some of this) and what combination of type faces I'd like to use (when I laid out one of my clients' books, I had to break down how I was going to deal with these types of things to stay consistent throughout the book). And given the amount of writing I'll be including with the plans, it is starting to seem a little book-like (even if it is done as a series of large sheets).


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## Chrisisall

Lovin' it!:thumbsup:


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## Gregatron

Shaw said:


> And given the amount of writing I'll be including with the plans, it is starting to seem a little book-like (even if it is done as a series of large sheets).



That's it...just keep moving in that direction...


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## StarshipClass

Gregatron said:


> That's it...just keep moving in that direction...


Yes!!! :thumbsup::hat:


----------



## StarshipClass

Shaw said:


> I get asked about the phaser assembly quite a bit (usually "isn't that the torpedo tubes?"), so I threw together a quick outline of how it was being approached in Phase II.
> 
> 
> _Click to enlarge_​
> Initially, all the weapons were going to fall under the umbrella term _phasers_ (as described in the writers guide), but the set designers (Joe Jennings and Lee Cole) had added in photon torpedo controls for the bridge. So my guess is that while it would have been nice to simplify the weapons, by the time scripts were being finalized beams would have been called _phasers_ and energy bolts _photon torpedoes_... but the effects would still all originate from the same spot on the model (which is why _weapons assembly_ may be a better term for it than _phaser assembly_).
> 
> The other reason for putting this together was to play around with some ideas I have about how to illustrate different aspects of the design in my final plans (I might utilize photos of my model for some of this) and what combination of type faces I'd like to use (when I laid out one of my clients' books, I had to break down how I was going to deal with these types of things to stay consistent throughout the book). And given the amount of writing I'll be including with the plans, it is starting to seem a little book-like (even if it is done as a series of large sheets).


So, this would have been the ONLY source of weapons firing for the P2 version. Fascinating. I like the idea of not having a ship covered with phaser turrets and photon tubes. Since it was supposed to primarily be an exploration vessel, this would be keeping in with that philosophy.


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## Owen E Oulton

Been following this build from the beginning. All I have to say is *WOW!!*


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## starseeker

This is one of the coolest modelling projects ever! So much so that I just saved the whole thread as pdfs. I never want to lose this one. 
That's great news about the possibility of kitting this. I sure hope it happens. Jim Key does beautiful work but I suspect this sucker is going to be out of my price range. Another reason to save this thread.
Your generosity in sharing your progress, your generosity in sharing your research, your generosity in sharing this as a kit, and your craftsmanship... it's inspiring and humbling and challenging (it makes me want to be a better modeller) and has been a real privilege to watch. To steal a phrase, but it means something here: Insanely great! Thank you!


----------



## eagledocf15

*Pre-order*

Can we pre-order these? love it !!!


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## Shaw

Thanks a ton guys!

I'm still surprised (and overwhelmed) by the amount of interest this has had. I always thought that people would like Jefferies' design if given a chance to see it... I was just hoping that I was up to building a version that did it justice.

I've loved watching the work that you guys have done (I may not post much, but I read a lot of threads and take a ton of notes), so it means a lot to see that you guys like this build. I make so few models that I'm never quite sure how well they are going to turn out (I always figure I need more practice).



PerfesserCoffee said:


> So, this would have been the ONLY source of weapons firing for the P2 version. Fascinating. I like the idea of not having a ship covered with phaser turrets and photon tubes. Since it was supposed to primarily be an exploration vessel, this would be keeping in with that philosophy.


The really odd thing is that there wasn't any part of either _In Thy Image_ or TMP that required the ship to be covered with phaser turrets. This design change wasn't story driven, and yet the Enterprise was now a heavily armed vessel. 



eagledocf15 said:


> Can we pre-order these?


I haven't started in on building the masters yet... and even though it shouldn't take nearly as long as building this model (which was done while doing the research), it is most likely a ways off before we even have any idea what a kit will entail. I'm still trying to figure out how to approach building the masters for a kit (verses how I build them for my own builds... which are usually pretty raw).

I'm not much of a business person, so I'd let Jim handle most of that stuff. But any news on where we are at on releasing a kit would be posted at the Modelers Miniatures and Magic site.


----------



## StarshipClass

Shaw said:


> But any news on where we are at on releasing a kit would be posted at the Modelers Miniatures and Magic site.



ALERT!! POSSIBLE KIT!! 1:500 Star Trek PHASE II Enterprise 1701 Study Model

That is FANTASTIC news! :thumbsup:


----------



## Shaw

I know that some people have asked to see the model _in action_, and there were a couple of things I wanted to see, so here are a few shots I've thrown together...

 
_Click either to enlarge_


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## arr531

Looks cool Shaw particularly that last shot. It would have been nice if you could have lighted the impulse engines but hey - beggers can't be choosers.


----------



## Shaw

Thanks!

I spent a little more time playing around with some shots of the model in Photoshop to try to get a better feeling for how the design might have looked in action...

_Click images to enlarge_
 
 
​
It'd still be cool to have a larger model with all the lighting, but at least this sorta conveys the direction things were going (before the switch to TMP and shuffling/replacing of some people). The emphasis was going to be more on lighting effects for the engines for the small screen (again, much like was done for the Enterprise D in TNG), but I think they could have kept a bit more of some of these ideas than they did... though I think some got lost in the transition.


----------



## Chrisisall

I am lovin' this Shaw(tm) commentary too!


----------



## publiusr

Perfect..just perfect.


----------



## StarshipClass

Those photoshops of the PII version of the ship really drive home the point that the ship was supposed to receive an upgrade, primarily of engines and weaponry, and not a complete restyling of the entire ship--the exterior, at least. This ship, at first glance, looks overwhelmingly like the TOS Enterprise albeit with new engines. Mission accomplished, I'd say. The Matt Jefferies vision has been accurately brought to life, IMHO.


----------



## Shaw

Thanks a ton guys!

I wish Jefferies was around to share this with (and to ask questions of), and I hope he starts getting more credit for some of the key aspects of the TMP design that originated with his work. I think that because people had initially dismissed this design on the page, it was harder to show just how well it would have worked on screen... and for many of the same reasons that the TMP Enterprise also works well on screen.

I know that Jefferies taking the odd step of moving away from some of the original geometry makes it a hard sell when looking at the drawings, but when brought to life as intended it does feel like the TOS Enterprise. And I think it would have worked well with the audience back in 1978 as such. I just know that given today's audience (and the access to data we have) something more like the NV/P2 Enterprise would be needed, but I'm glad that people can still appreciate this version.

I know the opening credits wouldn't have followed the TOS credits very closely (any more than the TNG credits had), but I wanted to see this version of the model in that setting... so here she is.








Hopefully my next endeavor will be this successful!

Thanks again guys! :thumbsup:


----------



## eagledocf15

*Any more news on a Kit?*

Any more news on a Kit? I haven't heard anything in some time


----------



## Chrisisall

Shaw, you seriously ROCK!
Anyone ever tell you that? 
This thread should be sticky-d.


----------



## Shaw

Wow, thanks!




eagledocf15 said:


> Any more news on a Kit? I haven't heard anything in some time


Well, this type of building is an expensive venture (the other reason it took two years to build this model) and I don't make much money. I have a certain amount of supplies left over from my previous work and have shifted resources from my one-sixth scale TOS 11 foot study model to this... but that is still going to be slow going.

Add to that the fact that I usually build parts to meet my needs as a model builder and usually make molds or parts that are a bit on the raw side... and now I need to be considering how others are going to be putting these parts together. It has added an additional level of complexity to how to build these parts aside from just matching the basic design.

That having been said... I decided to start the secondary hull master at the same time as the secondary hull master of my 33 inch Enterprise...

















So unless I get a massive influx of funds, it has to wait it's turn for resources. The 33 inch Enterprise has been on hold for 2 years, and I'm not going to put it off any longer... specially as the original's 50th birthday is coming up in a couple months.

But if I had a few thousand dollars to dedicate to this, I could most likely knock out the master for the kit by the end of December (even while working on the 33 inch Enterprise). Right now I'm weighing my options for how to get those funds sooner rather than later.


----------



## StarshipClass

Where do we send our money? Say, twenty of us at $100 each?


----------



## Shaw

I appreciate the offer.

I've thought about doing something along the lines of a Kickstarter project. It is just that once I start getting money to build something, I tend to stress over every detail for the project (more than I do currently). It is easier for me to build something and sell it than to accept money and then build it.

Then again, there is a lot of stress trying to build something without any funds and having to wait for funds to become available to continue.

I'm still debating which is worse (though the project would go faster with funds) and how I want to approach all this.

On the plus side, I've been approaching my 33 inch Enterprise build with the idea of how it might work as a kit (even though I don't need it to be that nice)... which is why the attachment openings on the inner nacelle and secondary hull masters are made as nicely as they are. I want to see if I could even produce that type of thing, so I figured I'd try it out where it wouldn't matter if I screwed up.


----------



## Gregatron

Shaw said:


> On the plus side, I've been approaching my 33 inch Enterprise build with the idea of how it might work as a kit (even though I don't need it to be that nice)... which is why the attachment openings on the inner nacelle and secondary hull masters are made as nicely as they are. I want to see if I could even produce that type of thing, so I figured I'd try it out where it wouldn't matter if I screwed up.



Y'know, it would be interesting to sit an accurate 33-inch model next to the 1/350 Master Replicas and/or Round 2 models (both based on the 11-footer), just to compare and contrast them.


----------



## eagledocf15

*I'll contribute*



PerfesserCoffee said:


> Where do we send our money? Say, twenty of us at $100 each?


I will gladly contribute to the $100 fund. I will also do that for the 33 incher if she is a Refit/movie Enterprise!


----------



## Allansfirebird

eagledocf15 said:


> I will gladly contribute to the $100 fund. I will also do that for the 33 incher if she is a Refit/movie Enterprise!


I believe the 33-inch Enterprise Shaw is talking about is based off of the filming miniature from TOS, not the films.


----------



## Shaw

Gregatron said:


> Y'know, it would be interesting to sit an accurate 33-inch model next to the 1/350 Master Replicas and/or Round 2 models (both based on the 11-footer), just to compare and contrast them.


I had put together a number of shots comparing my second study model (even though it is flawed) with some replicas of the 11 foot model. I thought it might help people see some of the unique aspects of the 33 inch model (considering that there are now tons of models that are about that size out there now).

_Click images to enlarge_
 
 
 ​
But yeah, it'd be cool to see in person with actual models next to each other. :thumbsup:



Allansfirebird said:


> I believe the 33-inch Enterprise Shaw is talking about is based off of the filming miniature from TOS, not the films.


Yep, and in this case I'll only be making one copy (maybe two) of it. But I think most people really want something more like the Round 2 1/350 TOS model anyways.


----------



## Shaw

So I've been playing around in Photoshop with images of my model to get a feel for how the design might have looked if the series had gone to air... but also just for the fun of it. I put together a page with most of the images I've made (here), but this set of three images are my current favorites...

_Click images to enlarge_
 
​
There isn't really a story behind this series... I was just wanting to put the model in visually interesting situations and this popped into my head.


----------



## Shaw

I added in one more...


_Click to enlarge_​
Do you guys like any of these?


----------



## 1701ALover

Shaw...she looks amazing, and I love the "in-universe" renders...very cool! =)


----------



## Chrisisall

Pretty pretty.


----------



## arr531

I think those last 4 shots are great. She looks fantastic when fully lit. You think you could do a V'ger shot? Just for kicks.

Well actually almost fully lit but that's okay - close enough.


----------



## Opus Penguin

arr531 said:


> I think those last 4 shots are great. She looks fantastic when fully lit. You think you could do a V'ger shot? Just for kicks.


Yeah, considering the first episode, "In Thy Image" for the Phase II TV series was developed into "Star Trek The Motion Picture".


----------



## Shaw

arr531 said:


> You think you could do a V'ger shot? Just for kicks.


_-and-_​


Opus Penguin said:


> Yeah, considering the first episode, "In Thy Image" for the Phase II TV series was developed into "Star Trek The Motion Picture".


I'll try to put something together.

Of course what I'd love to do is have the winged version of V'ger exiting a cloud above Earth similar to how the saucer from ID4 did above New York or even the mother ship from Close Encounters (maybe rising up from behind the Moon). There was a lot of visual potential there that wasn't used in TMP. 


I realized I didn't have many shots from above the model, so here are a couple additional ones...

_Click images to enlarge_
 ​
And here are a few with the base (which is almost finished)...

_Click images to enlarge_
 
 
​
It is a nice model _as a model_ as well.


----------



## Chrisisall

It is a triumph.


----------



## robn1

And the internet rumors have begun.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=813416428719115&set=gm.739806489441090&type=1


----------



## Shaw

Chrisisall said:


> It is a triumph.


Thanks!



robn1 said:


> And the internet rumors have begun.
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=813416428719115&set=gm.739806489441090&type=1


Wow... you gotta love the internet!

In my defense, I just wanted to see what it would have looked like behind the scenes had the show gone forward.

















Maybe I should add some fine print saying that these are altered photos.

... naw.


----------



## eagledocf15

*Fantastic*

Really great model!!!
So by the line I am reading, there will not be a kit made?
If that is correct, I think there will be a lot of disappointed folks. 
Can we convince you to do a kit? I myself would love one!!!!!


----------



## Shaw

Thanks!

Well, a kit isn't out of the question... but there are a lot of factors to take into account.

Lets look at this model's history...

It took two years to make. Part of this was researching the design, part of it was researching how to build the thing, and part of it was coming up with funds to build it.

When designing and building the parts, I left myself _room for error_. While the top of the dorsal pylon fit nicely to the primary hull, the base didn't fit perfectly to the secondary hull. Similarly, neither the tops or bases of the nacelle support pylons fit nicely to the nacelles or secondary hull.


_Click to enlarge_​

But this was _by design_ because I figured if I got the parts together in correct alignment, I could go back and fill in the gaps between those parts later. After all, before the details are noticed, the overall alignment is what people will see first (think about all the models with beautiful detail work that are undercut by poor alignment of the main parts).

Consider that as late in the build as this...


_Click to enlarge_​
... I was still working out how to connect the nacelles to the support pylons.

For this to work as a kit, they need to go together and to some degree self align. Some of this I've worked out (I think), but there is still some testing that is needed.

Then there is the cost of building. This study model is the most expensive model I've ever built (about to be eclipsed by the 33 inch TOS Enterprise I'm working on). The kit might not be nearly as expensive, but will still cost a lot. What work I've done so far on it has been using extra materials from the 33 inch Enterprise project... but I've run out of those. So right now I have the start of the masters for the secondary hull and the nacelles.

And from my wife's point of view, this is a massive money pit. I haven't been paid to build a model since the 80's, I haven't made money on any of my drawings since the early 90's... so this is a hobby with almost no returns. So I'm thankful that she supports me in this stuff at all, and I'm not going to push my luck by putting us in more debt by spending money we don't have.

Finally, there is the motivation part of this. When I finished my two-thirds scale study model of the 33 inch TOS Enterprise back in 2010 I had all the information I needed to build a studio scale one. The problem was that I had a really good representation sitting right in front of me. That model was good enough to suck the passion I had to keep building right out of me. And this model has done much the same thing for building future Phase II Enterprise models.

The solution to that (and what I should have done with the other model back in 2010) is to get rid of it. So I've put this model up for sale. I'm in no hurry to see it go... but I know that as long as I can just look over at it and see what I'd been wanting to see for a long time, I'll have a hard time staying motivated to build essentially the same thing again.

So there are a lot of things at play here, but yes, I'd like to build a kit (and keep my wife while doing it  ).


----------



## Chrisisall

Good luck on both fronts, my friend!


----------



## arr531

Well it's not the Vger shot I was hoping for but the angle is about right. A great photo manip.


----------



## Shaw

arr531 said:


> Well it's not the Vger shot I was hoping for...


Actually I've been trying to put together a Phase II V'ger... the one with the wings, for some composites.

I also thought that having a massive cloud coming towards Earth, and then having this giant winged monster ship bursting out and hovering over the planet would have been an awesome sequence. Knowing what could have been, the same events in TMP are rather underwhelming.


----------



## Hunch

I love your model. I personally wish they had used THAT in the films as I prefer the shapes and the fact that it resembles the original series much closer.
I've been following closely and all I can say is Wonderful Job!
Jim


----------



## Shaw

Thanks a ton! :thumbsup:


----------



## johnF

Fascinating work as always Shaw. I haven’t seen any post on your One-Sixth Studio Scale TOS Enterprise for a while. Has it been put on the back burner?


----------



## arr531

I agree with Hunch, I think this would have been great for the movies. A little more detail perhaps for the big screen but not too much.


----------



## Shaw

johnF said:


> I haven’t seen any post on your One-Sixth Studio Scale TOS Enterprise for a while. Has it been put on the back burner?


I'll throw up a progress report on that model (and the research associated with it), but the build itself has been taking a back seat at this point.

One of the key reasons that the build got as much of my attention as it did was that I wanted to try out a number of ideas on building some of the masters/molds/parts on a slightly smaller scale before investing the time/resources on the larger scale 33 inch studio scale replica.

And one of the main reasons for shuffling it to the back of the line as far as projects (besides the fact that it can get confusing to work on replicas of both the 33 inch and 11 foot models) is that I hadn't really done _something else_ in the last 8 years. For the most part I've done...- an Enterprise (first two-thirds scale study of the 33 inch model),
- an Enterprise (second two-thirds scale study of the 33 inch model),
- a Klingon (the AMT/ERTL TOS kit),
- an Enterprise (practice build of the AMT/Round 2 kit done as the Republic)
- an Enterprise (a one-third scale Phase II study model), 
- started an Enterprise (a one-sixth scale study of the 11 foot model) and
- started another Enterprise (my studio scale replica of the 33 inch model)​Given my track record, I was starting to look like a one trick pony... so that was why I threw in my one-half scale study model of the shuttlecraft miniature, to show I _can_ do other things besides the Enterprise that aren't based on a pre-existing kit or someone else's research.

So yeah, when I finish the shuttlecraft, I'll put more time into the one-sixth scale study model... and eventually back to attempting a Phase II kit.


----------



## johnF

Shaw said:


> I'll throw up a progress report on that model (and the research associated with it), but the build itself has been taking a back seat at this point.
> 
> One of the key reasons that the build got as much of my attention as it did was that I wanted to try out a number of ideas on building some of the masters/molds/parts on a slightly smaller scale before investing the time/resources on the larger scale 33 inch studio scale replica.
> 
> And one of the main reasons for shuffling it to the back of the line as far as projects (besides the fact that it can get confusing to work on replicas of both the 33 inch and 11 foot models) is that I hadn't really done _something else_ in the last 8 years. For the most part I've done...- an Enterprise (first two-thirds scale study of the 33 inch model),
> - an Enterprise (second two-thirds scale study of the 33 inch model),
> - a Klingon (the AMT/ERTL TOS kit),
> - an Enterprise (practice build of the AMT/Round 2 kit done as the Republic)
> - an Enterprise (a one-third scale Phase II study model),
> - started an Enterprise (a one-sixth scale study of the 11 foot model) and
> - started another Enterprise (my studio scale replica of the 33 inch model)​Given my track record, I was starting to look like a one trick pony... so that was why I threw in my one-half scale study model of the shuttlecraft miniature, to show I _can_ do other things besides the Enterprise that aren't based on a pre-existing kit or someone else's research.
> 
> So yeah, when I finish the shuttlecraft, I'll put more time into the one-sixth scale study model... and eventually back to attempting a Phase II kit.


Well Shaw for one trick pony you do a pretty neat trick. I look forward to your research on that project.


----------



## spocks beard

Shaw said:


> _-and-_​
> I'll try to put something together.
> 
> Of course what I'd love to do is have the winged version of V'ger exiting a cloud above Earth similar to how the saucer from ID4 did above New York or even the mother ship from Close Encounters (maybe rising up from behind the Moon). There was a lot of visual potential there that wasn't used in TMP.
> 
> 
> I realized I didn't have many shots from above the model, so here are a couple additional ones...
> 
> _Click images to enlarge_
> ​
> And here are a few with the base (which is almost finished)...
> 
> _Click images to enlarge_
> 
> 
> ​
> It is a nice model _as a model_ as well.


That is so cool!

I wish a styrene kit of the phase 2 Enterprise would be commercially released.

As much as i love TMP Enterprise, The phase 2 Enterprise much more resembles what the original Enterprise would have looked like after a refit, While still retaining much of the original series look.
To me TMP ship is a totally new Enterprise.


----------



## Chrisisall

spocks beard said:


> To me TMP ship is a totally new Enterprise.


Heh, that's what Will said...


----------



## spocks beard

Chrisisall said:


> Heh, that's what Will said...


That's right, He did!

Don't get me wrong, TMP Enterprise is a beauty..But in no way would there have been anything original left of the poor old Enterprise we all knew and loved after that so called refit.

They should have just explained that TOS Enterprise was retired after 30 years of service, And a new Enterprise was christened to contact the V Ger cloud.

The phase 2 ship is far more believable.:thumbsup:


----------



## Chrisisall

spocks beard said:


> The phase 2 ship is far more believable.:thumbsup:


I cannot argue with this logic.


----------



## spocks beard

Chrisisall said:


> I cannot argue with this logic.


Sorry, I got a little carried away.
I have taken my meds and am much better.


----------



## Chrisisall

spocks beard said:


> Sorry, I got a little carried away.
> I have taken my meds and am much better.


Seriously though, the Phase II E is a better transition, no matter how much I love the movie refit (and I *do* love it in the context of a cinematic version).


----------



## spocks beard

Chrisisall said:


> Seriously though, the Phase II E is a better transition, no matter how much I love the movie refit (and I *do* love it in the context of a cinematic version).


I agree, Maby this was due to Matt Jeffries original but limited? involvment with the phase II project.

I read somewhere that Gene Roddenberry had asked him to do some sketches of an updated Enterprise, And he really did not want to update much more than the two warp engine's, And a new bridge module with the twin turbo shafts.

Aside from that, The ship still retained much of the original series Enterprise looks.

Which is why they probably scrapped the in progress phase II television filming model when they decided to go to the big screen and needed a model with more detailing.

We ended up with the motion picture Enterprise..And that isn't bad at all.:thumbsup:

At least we have an idea how cool that phase II miniuture would have been if completed and the series had gone to production.. Thanks to the op's model. (She is a BEAUTY!:thumbsup::thumbsup


----------



## Chrisisall

spocks beard said:


> At least we have an idea how cool that phase II miniuture would have been if completed and the series had gone to production.. Thanks to the op's model. (She is a BEAUTY!:thumbsup::thumbsup


Yes, Shaw is a genius AND an artist.:thumbsup:


----------



## Trekkriffic

Chrisisall said:


> Yes, Shaw is a genius AND an artist.:thumbsup:


It kills me when he refers to his "study" models, as if these are somehow of lesser quality than the final product will eventually be. This is just for practice then. Funny because I would gladly display on of his "study" models on my model shelf. And this when I could never approach his level of skill. Shaw is just that good!


----------



## spocks beard

Trekkriffic said:


> It kills me when he refers to his "study" models, as if these are somehow of lesser quality than the final product will eventually be. This is just for practice then. Funny because I would gladly display on of his "study" models on my model shelf. And this when I could never approach his level of skill. Shaw is just that good!


I agree 100 percent.
I would definatly be proud to display Shaw's Phase II Enterprise, Wether it is considered a study model or not.

He is a genious!!:thumbsup:


----------



## harristotle

First off, absolutely beautiful job! 

I've got a couple questions for you if you don't mind... 
On page 35, you've got those pictures of the model in mock space settings. I read most of the pages of this thread months back, but this was before you had finished it. Are the blue nacelle's (inboard & outboard) as well as the orangeish bussards accurate to what you believe they were envisioning? If I remember correctly green was mentioned way earlier back. 
Also, is the ring around the deflector lit or is that reflection? 
The center of the deflector has a backlight also corrrect? 

Thank you for all the time you put into this project!


----------



## Shaw

Thanks! :thumbsup:

Those are some great questions... and I'm going to give a much longer answer because this touches on a number of areas of Phase II which many people have also asked about.

Before jumping in, this is based on notes by Jefferies, drawings/plans by Jefferies, the intent of the production team in general and discussions I've had on the model with Price... with a lot of analysis of the data thrown in.

*Nacelle colors/lighting*
_Why amber for the fronts?_

The thing to keep in mind is that the _Star Trek II_ series was to be _TOS better_. To the average viewer, watching an episode of Phase II shouldn't have seemed all that different from watching an episode of TOS. The main thing that was at the heart of all this was maintaining the visual language of TOS in the new series. Things like the primary uniforms, hand phasers and communicators all looked like their TOS counter parts... only much better quality in their production. In fact one of the problems in the prop collection community has been to identify which uniforms and props were from TOS and which were made for Phase II.

This idea of visual language was applied to the Enterprise, even though it was to have undergone an upgrade. We (the audience) don't know how the warp engines work, but we've seen them in TOS. The new engines are different, but continue to use many of the same visual queues established for TOS.

The main reference for the Phase II Enterprise was the 33 inch Enterprise, which has amber nacelle domes. I am 90% sure that this is what was going to be used for the Phase II Enterprise studio model. As for the other 10%, they also might have ended up red. At this point in time the 11 foot model was on display in the Smithsonian with red domes... so this was how the public was seeing the original Enterprise. This is actually why the Enterprise D has red for it's front nacelles, because it would feel familiar to the audience.

And the Enterprise D nacelle lighting wasn't very different from what was planned for the Phase II Enterprise...








_Why blue for the side grills?_

This idea was first put forward for the upgrades to the 11 foot model after the second pilot. The grills (which were being added) were to have been backlit with a blue glow. Datin pointed out that while this was _possible_, there was some risk of damaging the port nacelle to the point that it would need to be rebuild completely. It was that risk that kept it from happening back then.

When redesigning the Enterprise for Phase II, Jefferies added this element back in. It was sorta included in the later TMP Enterprise, but really came back on the Enterprise D design.

In Jefferies notes he says that the lighting needs to be a blue-green to differentiate it from the blue screen background. This is very much like the Superman effects costume worn by Christopher Reeves, which was a blue-green. The idea was that after the compositing was done, the blue-green could be brought back to blue.

So if you saw the model lit up in person you'd see a blue-green glow, but the TV audience would see a blue glow in the effects shots during the series.

*Deflector color/lighting, shadow areas*
_How was the deflector to be lit?_

Jefferies original design for the Enterprise in 1964 had the deflector/sensor behind a nose cone similar to a radar dish on planes. This idea was changed to have the dish both exposed and moveable. The idea seems to have been that the dish would be shown changing directions, this movement would give the Enterprise more life on screen (this was before any of the lighting stuff was done).

Jefferies wasn't a fan of this change, he felt it left equipment too exposed (he felt everything important should be accessible from inside the ship). As the intended use of the exposed dish was never used in TOS, he pulled it back into the whole assembly making it a self-contained unit for the Phase II Enterprise.

The back lighting of the emitter would not be part of the standard lighting of the model (so it wasn't to be on all the time)... and it would have most likely been a yellowish color to match the effect used in _The Paradise Syndrome_ (where we saw the beam used against the asteroid).

As for the openings between the rings around the bowl... those were meant to be dark, kept in shadow (unlike how they are lit on the TMP Enterprise). This was to mimic the feel of the rings behind the dish of the TOS Enterprise.

Also, openings to areas kept in shadows was a major aspect of Jefferies new design. The idea being to see these openings and wonder what aren't we seeing in the shadows. This was intended to address the criticism that the Enterprise design was _too plain_.

Some of these areas might become active with a glowing element just out of sight. The emitter on the deflector is one example, the emitter for the phaser back behind the targeting lens is another. There is a hooded area above the impulse engines that is in shadow, which might glow red when the engines are at overload (a visual aid to a situation like in _The Corbomite Maneuver_). The vents on the nacelle supports and the vents towards the front of the nacelles all have an opening in front of them in shadow, which also might glow red when the warp engines are at overload (again, a visual aid to a situation like in _The Corbomite Maneuver_). And the openings on the top of the nacelles around the covers might also work like that.

Jefferies wanted the Phase II Enterprise to be very dynamic on screen, and even when not doing anything, many of these shadowed areas invite the audience to imagine what might be going on. The sensor ramps around the deflector assembly extend out from under a hood... is there more to them than we are seeing?

I (personally) think this method of adding visual interest to effects models is way better than adding tons of greeblies.

That having been said, one of the shortcomings of my model was that some of these things I couldn't replicate exactly how Jefferies designed them. In some cases (the rings around the deflector bowl, the targeting lens assembly for the phaser, and the openings along the fronts of the nacelle support pylons) I had to compromise. This is part of the reason I'd really like to do a bigger (maybe even studio scale) version of this model. I knew I was going to have to compromise some of it building it at one-third the scale Jefferies designed it at.








So yeah, that is just a reflection around the bowl.

The odd thing is that my deflector assembly actually matches the studio model's part as cast. I'm not sure if Loos mistook the staggered rings as a stair step, or if he planned on opening it up later. There are a number of places where the studio model and Jefferies design differed, and I think this was because Price/Loos didn't have full access to Jefferies during the construction of the model and the plans can be confusing (I originally miss read them in some areas and only realized it while building this model).

Jefferies had a full time job as Art Director of _Little House on the Prairie_ while redesigning the Enterprise. Part of the reasons for many of the shortcuts and omissions from his plans was that he was doing all the work in his spare time... with much of the designing of the Enterprise happening in his hotel room while on location. Jefferies was under pressure from Michael Landon to stay focused on _Little House_ by the time Price/Loos started building, so he wasn't always able to answer any questions that they might have had.


Sorry for the long winded answer.


----------



## harristotle

Shaw said:


> Sorry for the long winded answer.


You're a gentleman and a scholar, thank you! A long winded answer on a subject like this is something I very much appreciate.


----------



## Fozzie

harristotle said:


> You're a gentleman and a scholar, thank you! A long winded answer on a subject like this is something I very much appreciate.


Ditto! Fascinating stuff! Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Chrisisall

Fozzie said:


> Ditto! Fascinating stuff! Thanks for sharing.


Double ditto on you!:thumbsup:


----------



## Shaw

Thanks guys! :thumbsup:

I always worry that I might be rambling on.


----------



## StarshipClass

Wow! Excellent reading on your build process and VERY sound reasoning! :thumbsup:


----------



## Dave in RI

Shaw said:


> Thanks guys! :thumbsup:
> 
> I always worry that I might be rambling on.



Quite the contrary; I find it all endlessly fascinating. 

Have you ever considered writing an in-depth book strictly on the history of all the studio models? I have many books that detail the production of the show, but very little on the models themselves. Your posts have filled that void quite nicely. 
Now that the Smithsonian is finally doing something to fix the 11-footer, a book (or Kindle) on this subject might be worthwhile...I know I would buy it in a heartbeat.


----------



## Shaw

Thanks!

I've been considering what it would take to do a book and it always seems a bit daunting when considering the scope. As an alternative, I've been considering doing a series of articles which I could then collect together to make a book. This would give me the ability to share as I go and not get overwhelmed by the project as I went along.

Still working out the details on how to make it work, but that is the direction I'm looking at at this point.


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## Shaw

This is my "what if" set of images for the _Star Trek II_ series pilot, _"In Thy Image"_. I was wondering what some of the iconic scenes from TMP might have looked like using Phase II elements. This was just for the fun of it... enjoy!


_Click to enlarge_


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## StarshipClass

^^^Wow! Gorgeous shots! The last two really nail the overall look IMHO. Great job integrating the image into the TMP background.

Can't help but like your version of the deflector dish over the others. I think you've nailed what the original intent was based on your excellent research. :thumbsup:


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## WOI

You certainly have done that version of the Enterprise a true sense of
justice!!It's a far better sight than the one designed by Ryan Church
for JJ Abrahms.


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## Steve H

Considered as an actual refitting of the original Enterprise, that's some beautiful work. If I may suggest so, I think it shows Jefferies was really invested in the project.

Is it BETTER than the ST:TMP Enterprise? I don't think that's a fair question to ask, actually. Each ship was designed for the 'world' of their specific projects. 

Either way, I wish we lived in a world where it would be conceivable that Shaw's model and detective work could result in a mass-market plastic model. but who knows, the future is always unwritten.


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## JGG1701

Shaw said:


> This is my "what if" set of images for the _Star Trek II_ series pilot, _"In Thy Image"_. I was wondering what some of the iconic scenes from TMP might have looked like using Phase II elements. This was just for the fun of it... enjoy!
> 
> 
> _Click to enlarge_
> 
> 
> _Click to enlarge_
> 
> 
> _Click to enlarge_
> 
> 
> _Click to enlarge_
> 
> 
> _Click to enlarge_
> 
> 
> _Click to enlarge_​


Beautiful work Mr. Shaw!!!
Would you mind if I posted these pics. to MY Photobucket please?
-Jim G.G.


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## lunadude

Excellent! Loving these. Mind doing one in the John Berkey poster pose?


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## alensatemybuick

.....


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## Shaw

Thanks a ton guys!




lunadude said:


> Excellent! Loving these. Mind doing one in the John Berkey poster pose?


You mean something like this...


_Click to enlarge_​


alensatemybuick said:


> Love the Phase II spacedock shot, especially!


I had been wanting to do a better spacedock image since I did these a few years ago...

















Those just happened to be easier to do. I only did this one because I was stuck at a clients watching progress bars and needed something to kill the time. It was still a pain though.



JGG1701 said:


> Would you mind if I posted these pics. to MY Photobucket please?


Sure, be my guest.

These are here for anyone to use as they wish... have fun with them! :thumbsup:


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## Steve H

Only one thing I see missing on the Phase II build. Shouldn't there be a pentagonal-shaped docking port on the Engineering hull? Or do you consider that 'not actual' in the context of Phase II?


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## Shaw

Steve H said:


> Only one thing I see missing on the Phase II build. Shouldn't there be a pentagonal-shaped docking port on the Engineering hull? Or do you consider that 'not actual' in the context of Phase II?


Well, it didn't originally exist on the studio model, but that is because it was a last minute contrivance to avoid the cost of rebuilding the hangar deck so soon. Magicam did build an enlarged section of the secondary hull representing it and Jefferies added it to the plans for Price and Loos to add it to the studio model.

As for my model, I guess I should ask where you are looking for it...








... It wasn't meant to stand out all that much, but it is there.

Even though the model is only 23 inches long, I designed it so that additional details become visible as you get closer... for example, the station numbers are there on the secondary hull, but they don't show up from far away.


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## Steve H

I was only referencing the most recent pics and the angles didn't make the port obvious, so to use the phrase so popular with the kids today, "my bad". 

I recalled it was near the deco on the side of the Engineering hull but I couldn't recall the exact placement. Have to say, a shot of a pod docking between the huge NCC-1701 would be pretty dramatic. 

but how to address the problem of the angle caused by the placement on the hull? With artificial gravity there's no problem, if one wanted to acknowledge the hull curve they could put a ramp from the deck angled down to the docking port (so those leaving the pod would seem to be walking 'uphill' slightly until they were on the deck proper), or they could do the usual TV/movie thing of not even trying to address the issue by having the pod seem to dock 'flat and level' (same as what happened in ST:TMP) from the inside, while the exterior effect shot would show the pod docked at an angle...

Or the pod could have a flexible docking sleeve but...that doesn't actually solve the angle issue. 

I assume that the placement of the docking port was partially a function of not messing with (assumed) existing paint and detailing. Altho...it COULD have been placed astern of the mid-line pennant, or aft of the registry, so my thought assumes they WANTED that giant NCC-1701 to be visible when the pod docked to really hammer home it was the Enterprise.


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## alensatemybuick

.....


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## alensatemybuick

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## Steve H

alensatemybuick said:


> I wonder how many people will see those B&W shots and assume they are of the actual filming model in space dock in the studio circa late 70s. I can imagine 20 or 30 years from now, Steve H Jr. insisting that is the case and refusing to believe otherwise, so please document them well!


Oh ho, ho, ho! Sink me, a veritable Everest of wit! My world shattered! I may well swoon from this tiniest of pricks....to my ego! No, I am, I am, I swoon I say!


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## lunadude

Shaw said:


> ...You mean something like this...
> 
> 
> _Click to enlarge_​...


Very nice! Thanks for sharing! :thumbsup::thumbsup:
http://www.hobbytalk.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## Steve H

PerfesserCoffee said:


> And I found the response Shaw already gave on the docking port. Dawned on me that he had already answered that and that I just couldn't remember what he'd stated:
> 
> http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=376313&page=7


I had to drill down to page 14, my 'view' must somehow be different. 

OK, condensing his comments from 3 years back, he was of the opinion that docking ports 3 and 4 were mirrored (P/S) on the Engineering hull, and ports 1 and 2 were likely meant to be on the saucer, covered by opening panels same-as what was seen in ST:TMP. I had the impression he didn't like them back then. No question the docking ports were a last-minute addition in order to avoid building a new hanger bay (as, has been stated, the TOS shuttle hanger model was long gone).

That's kind of a surprising attitude (recall, back during TOS Roddenberry wrote a scene in Engineering in order to make sure they built an Engineering set right off the bat) but then again there was SO MUCH running in place and then lots of hurry up catch up during the Phase II period. I would guess that when they did build a shuttle hanger deck it would have been designed to be a 'magicam' set as well as an effects miniature. Well, I guess that may seem redundant.


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## JGG1701

Shaw said:


> Sure, be my guest.
> 
> These are here for anyone to use as they wish... have fun with them! :thumbsup:


Thank you sir!:thumbsup:
-Jim G.G.

P.S.

When & where do you find the time to do all of this , and most importantly.....where do you get the $$$ to do such a fantastic subject (mainly the *Enterprise*?):thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## alensatemybuick

I found this interesting lot of stationary and envelopes that depict the Phase II Enterprise, apparently sold through Lincoln Enterprises. Never saw before; pretty cool...


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## RMC

lincoln enterprises is owned by Majel Barret


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## Owen E Oulton

RMC said:


> lincoln enterprises is owned by Majel Barret


Well, it was, before her passing. I suspect it has now gone to Rod Roddenberry if it hasn't wrapped.


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## Trek Ace

It is now known as Roddenberry.com.

Roddenberry


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## Richard Baker

Steve H said:


> I had to drill down to page 14, my 'view' must somehow be different.
> 
> OK, condensing his comments from 3 years back, he was of the opinion that docking ports 3 and 4 were mirrored (P/S) on the Engineering hull, and ports 1 and 2 were likely meant to be on the saucer, covered by opening panels same-as what was seen in ST:TMP. I had the impression he didn't like them back then. No question the docking ports were a last-minute addition in order to avoid building a new hanger bay (as, has been stated, the TOS shuttle hanger model was long gone).
> 
> That's kind of a surprising attitude (recall, back during TOS Roddenberry wrote a scene in Engineering in order to make sure they built an Engineering set right off the bat) but then again there was SO MUCH running in place and then lots of hurry up catch up during the Phase II period. I would guess that when they did build a shuttle hanger deck it would have been designed to be a 'magicam' set as well as an effects miniature. Well, I guess that may seem redundant.


Roddenberry had the Engineering set built that way for TNG Encounter at Farpoint, not TOS ...


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