# Off topic: Goodbye Pontiac



## tjet princess (Oct 27, 2008)

As of today GM's deals with dealers that sell Pontiac's expires, essentially making all new Pontiac's used cars. What a sad statement made for poor management and design. I never owned a Pontiac, I did love the little 2 seater that was shared with Saturn, but other than that nearly their entire line was terrible. Even the G8 wasn't THAT great of a car. 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_goodbye_pontiac


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## Rolls (Jan 1, 2010)

Too little too late, I'm sad to say. 

Oh, but in their day...


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## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)

I've been Pontiac-less since January. I fixed that this weekend.


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## ParkRNDL (Mar 20, 2002)

Very nice. :thumbsup: 

--rick


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## DesertSlot (May 8, 2009)

Sweet!


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## bobwoodly (Aug 25, 2008)

*Had a couple of Pontiacs*

I had a pearl white 1974 Pontiac Firebird Formula 400, a little bogged down by smog controls and about 10 miles per gallon, but could really smoke the tires. Not mine but here is a picture of one









Currently have a 2008 G6 for my son, great value and a nice car to drive. However they also produced the Aztek, worst looking car ever


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

Still miss my trusty ole T1000.


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## Rolls (Jan 1, 2010)

Way to go, 'doba! Now that's what I call taking action. Nice acquisition!


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## RacerDave (Mar 28, 2006)

I loved my old 1974 Firebird. Pontiac rules with me. Dave.


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## Rolls (Jan 1, 2010)

Terminating agreements with Pontiac dealers is doubly sad when you stop to think about what an important role some of the more engaged, proactive dealers played in the success of Pontiac in their heydey. A dealership in Royal Oak, MI, about 30 mi from the factory comes to mind...


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## 440s-4ever (Feb 23, 2010)

Mismanaged into the grave. Seemed to have shifted from a performance brand to a blue-collar woman's brand.

Ten years ago I tried to order a black on black ram air formula bird thru the dealer network from 2 seperate pontiac dealers, none available nationally. Both dealers were really too busy pushing silver grand ams to want my business. However GM made sure there were plenty of camaros around that fit my standards. 

If the halo cars aren't available when somebody wants to step up, then you're not really a performance brand. You're a performance advertiser.


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## tjetsgrig (Nov 1, 2009)

tjet princess said:


> I never owned a Pontiac, I did love the little 2 seater that was shared with Saturn, but other than that nearly their entire line was terrible.
> 
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_goodbye_pontiac


So, you're speaking from experience I suppose??? My Mom's Pontiac has 400k plus miles on it......just put the first fuel pump in it, My Wife's Bonny has 285k on it, other than brakes & maint....I've done NOTHING to it, it still has the original exhaust on it. Love the GP and the GP GTP, awsome cars.........sad day for sure............. ( I do love my Buck though!! )


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## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)

Rolls said:


> Way to go, 'doba! Now that's what I call taking action. Nice acquisition!


Thanks, I am a man of action after all. :thumbsup:


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## resinmonger (Mar 5, 2008)

Wow, Doba, that is the most accurate HO slot cars I've ever seen...


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## Crimnick (May 28, 2006)




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## shocker36 (Jul 5, 2008)

I still wish I had my 89' Formula 350 with the WS6 package I had a 400 stroker motor in it pushing 500rwhp man it was a sleeper


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## slotcarman12078 (Oct 3, 2008)

Adios, Poncho!!! 

Of all the cars I went through, these two were my favorite, wish I still had either one..









Pretty much stock 326 powered. I did swap out the slip and slide with powerglide for a turbo 350 tranny. This picture was taken about 2 months after I bought her, and was still getting body work done. Of all the cars I've owned, this one never left me stranded, and was an absolute joy to drive. 



















My money pit... But it was fun playing with her, being a total sleeper. I never got this one totally finished, so I never was able to see the full potential of the 400 dual quads, rock crusher 4 speed and 12 bolt posi rear. I still needed to put frame connectors in, and I was afraid I'd twist it if I womped on it too much. :lol:


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## Rolls (Jan 1, 2010)

Beautiful old Poncho's, Crimnick & SCMan! 

Whitewalls and dual quads - if that doesn't say sleeper, I don't know what does! And I see you're a drop-top aficionado, too. Glad you have the pics! 

And Crim, glad you not only have the photo, but are still rockin' that '73 as a daily driver. Too cool.


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## Pete McKay (Dec 20, 2006)

At my high school in Texas the big thing was the 67 through 69 Camaro, which I had one of with my 1969 Z-28 with the R/S grill and sliding headlights. But this one guy, I think his name was Ricky, had a 1968 Firebird 400 with a 4 speed. While our cars labored under heavy cams and mufflers we knocked the innards out of his was a study in quiet power. When he would light it up you could actually hear the tires being spent. I can only remember him getting beaten once and that was by a 6.5 liter Grand Am. But styling, not dependability is what killed Pontiac in my opinion, and I have to agree with Sarah in that the recent line of cars was terrible in that regard. I think had there been another Firebird, even a concept, it could have saved if not delayed their demise. Cadillac had their Corvette based XLR, Pontiac could have definitely benefited from something along those lines for the new performance marque. But like Plymouth, I guess it spent too much time and energy in things that just wouldn't sell.


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

I always thought those lines took inspiration from the 40s. Can you see it?

Here's the 40 Ford...











And here's the 40 Pontiac...


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## Rolls (Jan 1, 2010)

Good call, NTx. I can definitely see it.


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## Slott V (Feb 3, 2005)

I've been a Chevy man most of my life and like working on GM's, but have had a few others over time. I bought a 2005 GTO new and it was a great car. I wasn't sold on the styling but 400 HP SFI aluminum LS2, 6 speed, 4 wheel disc, leather and 0-60 in 4.6 for $30k was a bargain in my book. I've had many muscle cars over the years and this car would probably stomp on 90% of them. I sold it last year with just under 40k miles on it. I drove it all year even in Chicago winters and it faired well. Towards the last year I started getting concerned when the "permanent lubed" tie rods wore out at 30k and cost me $95 each to replace. Another major concern was if you got hit you couldn't get 1/4 panels for the 04-06 any more since so many punks wrecked them. With Pontiac not replenishing it's dealer inventories I saw the writing on the wall. Goodbye Pontiac.


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## Rolls (Jan 1, 2010)

Beautiful, Slott_V. Like many, I'm not a fan of the underlying egg-shaped body shell styling theme that dates back to the Catera and Beretta cars. But the GTO is a very tasteful and compelling execution of it and is really quite handsome. Controversial styling aside, those are wonderful cars. Exceptionally capable. Arguably the best interior in any GM car at the time. Yours is a beauty.


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## 440s-4ever (Feb 23, 2010)

I think what killed the GTO's resurgence as much as the mild styling were the original 5.7 cars. 

When they were new I was running a mostly stock LT1 camaro with at my local dragstrip's street night and just killing new GTOs. Stock goats were running around 14.80 which is a half second slower than an LT1 camaro and .75 seconds slower than an LS1 camaro/firebird.

The later 6.0s finally stepped up, but those inital years of GTO just weren't as fast as the F bodies they were poised to replace. And so when the F body faded guys didn't step into GTOs. They'd been whupping em too long. The rest is history. Literally


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## Rolls (Jan 1, 2010)

Of course, the LS2 cars were quicker, but 14.8 is a a pretty bad time for a 2004.

For the 2004 LS1 GTO, C&D clocked 14.0 @102
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/03q4/2004_pontiac_gto-road_test/aussie_goat_page_2

and MotorTrend recorded 13.62 @ 104.78
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/112_0312_2004_pontiac_gto/specs_price.html

Both are 2004 LS1 6-speed cars.

They aren't the easiest cars to launch, I understand, and that can make a big difference in results at the local strip. 

Pontiac's marketing of the car was abysmal. Was it a BMW 5-series competitor? A Camaro replacement (if so, it's hard to explain the GTO's interior!)? A modern interpretation of the 69 Grand Prix? A GTO? A 3-series killer? They couldn't decide.


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

Indecision. Always a crowd pleaser.


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## Slott V (Feb 3, 2005)

I think the new GTO could easily have been badged as a Camaro and for all purposes it really was. The only thing that made it a Pontiac was the badges. It is a very heavy car though- I think mine weighed in @ 4,000 lbs with me in it. The 05-06 models were much improved over the 04 and were getting down to respectible numbers like 12.90's on the automatics. For the most part it was the newer head design and true dual exhaust that generated the 50 extra ponies. Beefier half shafts and some other improvements but the independent rear suspension gave lots of wheel hop. The thing was a torque monster though and I was always afraid I was going to tear the rear end right out of it with so much power. Even more amazing for the engineering was honest 25+ mpg on the highway. Very fun car.


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## ParkRNDL (Mar 20, 2002)

Gawd would I love to step into a used one of them that hadn't been flogged too hard...

--rick


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## 440s-4ever (Feb 23, 2010)

Rolls said:


> Of course, the LS2 cars were quicker, but 14.8 is a a pretty bad time for a 2004.


Yeah, I read those articles too. But must've raced thirty different 5.7 goats over the years. Hard to believe pontiac might put ringers in the hands of journalists, huh?


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## DesertSlot (May 8, 2009)

ParkRNDL said:


> Gawd would I love to step into a used one of them that hadn't been flogged too hard...
> 
> --rick



ME TOO!


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## Rolls (Jan 1, 2010)

Me 3. And I know they're out there!


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

Well, I would really like to get one of these...










Except I would want to do this to it...


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## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)

One test drive in a '93 LT1-equipped Firebird Formula and my 305 'bird was trade bait.

Likewise, one test drive in an '00 LS-1-equipped WS.6 TA turned my Formula into a trade-in.

The '01 & '02 TAs had the LS-6 intake which made the heads flow even better (hence why I finally picked an '01 TA for my latest 'bird). The final LS-1 F-bodies had probably an honest 350HP at the crank, and eye-catching style. The GTO, at 400HP, needed some style to go with that raw power. It sure didn't need to look like a Grand Am.

A few years on, and we have a 400HP, eye-catching new Camaro that is stomping the Mustang in sales. Lesson learned for GM, but a little too late for Pontiac, unfortunately.


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## pontiacfan1972 (Apr 25, 2008)

My most favorite brand of car. Been hooked on pontiacs all my life. Here's my 1:1's. Pontiac you will be missed!
































Had to borrow this pic of my 89.








And my huge project car 1971 gto


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## Rolls (Jan 1, 2010)

Tex - that 43 GP looks like an awesome idea. Very doable project, too. Love it.

PonchoFan - Cool tribe of Indians you got there. Thx for posting those excellent pics.


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## SplitPoster (May 16, 2006)

Boys and Girls.... you can love the best that wore the Pontiac badge and loathe the worst - you can't deny that they sold both. You can't argure that the arrogant, "save-a-penny-on-a-product-to-blow-billions-in-bad-deals" GM management was terrible for the brand. Even in their heyday, for every 4 speed they sold to some happy enthusiast they passed off a 2 speed automatic on some unsuspecting schmuck. 

The worst car I ever drove was a 1987 Pontiac T 6000 (= Chevy Citation? I don't remember) with the Iron Duke 4. The car did not have any redeeming qualities except that you could hear the engine clatter coming before you could see the car. The stripped down Fiero with that same engine they sold was an insult to the talented engineers that designed the car originally and had their (Fiero GT) design turned into a mid-engine Chevette. You might remember the Pontiac version of the Chevette - the T 1000 - as one of the last small cars to have a pushrod cast iron 4 and solid axle rear wheel drive when VW Rabbits set the mark for economy and performance. 

In more recent years the product line lost identity and was just brand managed into the ground. Why did every division need their own version of the Chevy Uplander?

R.I.P. for sure, as loyal dealers, fans and enthusiasts deserved better.


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## ParkRNDL (Mar 20, 2002)

SplitPoster said:


> (snip)
> 
> The worst car I ever drove was a 1987 Pontiac T 6000 (= Chevy Citation? I don't remember) with the Iron Duke 4.
> 
> (snip)


FWIW, IIRC:

T1000=Chevette
J2000=Cavalier
Phoenix=Citation
6000=Celebrity

--rick


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

*Exciting times.*

Well, I know they sold a TON of Grand Ams in the 80s, with mixed reviews.






Did you see that???? Did you see it TAKE OFF at the end??

Man, that thing was GONE!!!!!


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## 440s-4ever (Feb 23, 2010)

SplitPoster said:


> The stripped down Fiero with that same engine they sold was an insult to the talented engineers that designed the car originally and had their (Fiero GT) design turned into a mid-engine Chevette.



IMO the 2 best fieros were at extreme ends of the spectrum. The early stripped down 4 cylinder was an old school lightweight sports car of the purest kind. The late V6 GTs represented almost a completely different type of sports car. 

Kinda like comparing a porsche 924 to a 944 turbo. Ultimately the same cars, very good cars, yet very different cars. 

I'm still mystified how the fiero has not been ressurected. That car's got a RABID fan base.


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## ParkRNDL (Mar 20, 2002)

440s-4ever said:


> I'm still mystified how the fiero has not been ressurected. That car's got a RABID fan base.


for real. Who all saw this story not too long ago?

http://www.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=830086

--rick


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## win43 (Aug 28, 2006)

I drive an 2002 Grand Prix ........ and miss my 73 LeMans. I also like the Oldsmobiles ...... I can pick the winners huh??? ...i'm just saying


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## slotrod65 (Dec 4, 2005)

I agree that dropping Pontiac was a mistake.

I gotta say that I love my Solstice, but have always felt that pressure from the Corvette brass prevented it from being fully developed, or as fast as it should have been.


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## ParkRNDL (Mar 20, 2002)

slotrod65 said:


> I agree that dropping Pontiac was a mistake.
> 
> I gotta say that I love my Solstice, but have always felt that pressure from the Corvette brass prevented it from being fully developed, or as fast as it should have been.


Prevented GM from doing it. But not these guys...

http://www.mallettcars.com/solstice-conversion.htm

--rick


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## SplitPoster (May 16, 2006)

That Fiero story with the kid is fantastic. You're right about the fanbase, one of my customers has one with a Dino body kit on it that looks fantastic. He was putting some big power in it last time we talked. 

The GT (suspension especially) was how the car was designed, a really nice, fast, good handling car. On the other hand, we got our hands on one of the first ones for our SCCA regional autocross series back in the day. With mediocre all-season tires, little power and an automatic it was a stone. The boyfriend of the young lady that bought it had read the pre-release stuff - he with Mustang GT with quadra-shock rear end and all options - and was sorely disappointed. I remember hers caught fire riding down the road, like a lot of those early ones did, and I think it was totalled. 

Sorry I don't cut GM much slack, not the guys who pulled the strings anyway. They owned the U.S. market, could build absolutely anything they wanted to even up until comparatively recently, and they just blew it in the worst sort of way.


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## slotcarman12078 (Oct 3, 2008)

Yup... The catching on fire thing with the Fiero was a true problem. I've read that if you took the ratio of Fiero engine fires to number of Fieros produced, and ran it across the board with all cars produced, the number was so high that you'd average seeing about one car fire a day!!! The small oil pan with a small oil filter was the culprit, alongside of bad maintenance. The oil capacity was so low, that if you ran it 1 quart low, you risked a thrown rod. Due to the design, the majority of thrown rods went through the block just at the right spot to splash oil on the hot exhaust manifold.. Fiero flambe... Sadly, just when they got the issue fixed, they stopped production.. The GT was debugged of most the problems... just a bit too late..


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## ParkRNDL (Mar 20, 2002)

Didn't they also run radiator hoses waaaaaaaay up to the front of the car? Like under one of the rocker panels or something? I thought that was a contributing factor too...

--rick


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## slotcarman12078 (Oct 3, 2008)

Good possibility.. My younger brother had a regular Fiero, and I did borrow it once while visiting him... Getting out of a tractor trailer and into that car literally scared the crap out of me.. From being way up high to dragging my butt on the ground really messed with my head! :lol: I suddenly felt really vulnerable...


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## Slott V (Feb 3, 2005)

slotrod65 said:


> I agree that dropping Pontiac was a mistake.
> 
> I gotta say that I love my Solstice, but have always felt that pressure from the Corvette brass prevented it from being fully developed, or as fast as it should have been.


Send her over to Chuck Mallet and he will make it onto a rocket: 

http://mallettcars.com/solstice-conversion.htm


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## slotrod65 (Dec 4, 2005)

That sure is fast... but there is no reason why I should pay another 20K after buying the car for 27K.... That is just crazy. The puny 4 cylinder motor installed in these things is just another example of GM group-think in action. This car should have at least had a V6 w/225HP.

I love the car, I just wish it was a bit more powerful. It is a bit sad when my Mini Cooper S has a few more HP, but with a lot less weight, so it is a real road rocket.


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## Crimnick (May 28, 2006)

The hot set up for a fiero is a northstar V8 swap out...


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## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)

Crimnick said:


> The hot set up for a fiero is a northstar V8 swap out...


:thumbsup:


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## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)

My sister had an '84 Fiero 2M4 - handled like a go-kart, pretty neat actually.

I do remember one time getting stuck on literally an inch of snow. I went to park it in front of the garage, backed up to straighten it out, and then couldn't get enough grip to drive forward. Just sat there spinning the wheels. After about 10 minutes of trying, backing up more, sliding forward a little, backing up again etc., etc. I was finally able to get it back where it belonged. What a nightmare. :freak: The street had a crown like most roads, but that was just retarded how that car could not bite down.


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## 440s-4ever (Feb 23, 2010)

^tires

I lived in new england and had a fiero buddy who loved them because they got around so well in the winter. With the rear engine they had good weight % over the drive tires and lack of driveline results in a smoother, pan style floor that drags over deep snow without catching.

As much as I like frankensteins, no way I'm working on a northstar fiero! The small block chevy versions are even stuupider fast and harder to work on.


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## slotrod65 (Dec 4, 2005)

I had an 86 Fiero GT in the mod 1990's. Super fast, and it was great feeling that V6 purring in the small of your back.


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