# Why do we call our 1/64 slot cars HO / H0 ?



## 280A (Apr 2, 2013)

Hi all, 

As a (Marklin) model train hobbyist I'm of course familiar with the various scales.

Most of our slot cars are scale 1:64, so scale 'S'.

Why do we call them nonetheless 'H0' scale (because H0 is 1:87) ??

As far as I know, the German Heras Wiad slot cars from 1961 were the only true 1:87 scale slot cars. (see movie).

Further I have noticed that in the US 'H0' is spelled as 'HO'.
InEurope we spell it as 'H0', because the scale is half the size of scale 0 (Half Zero).

Kind regards from Holland, 
Marco


----------



## 280A (Apr 2, 2013)

Left 1:87 Heras Wiad - Right 1:64 Faller AMS
(2x Mercedes 220 and 2x Opel Kapitan)


----------



## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

hmmmmmm, so is "S" scale really supposed to be "5" scale?

seems to me that most of the scales/guages are letters representing a specific width of distance between rails not numbers. 
why would "O" be the number "0" instead?

according to my training in railway safety, GAUGE is the measurement of distance between parallel rails that carry rail cars.
so if numbers were to be used for scaled down trains in various sizes, wouldn't they all have a number designation?

I think this is the reason the letters were chosen by the industry to represent specific scales, for ease of use.
and many slot cars that are in the 1/64 scale range are not even GAUGED/SCALED in current packaging or complete track sets.

recognizing that 1/64 is indeed "S" scale is good to know and probably important, but in the world of slot car enthusiasts they are simply recognized as H.O. ( half O gauge ) out of convenience.

to go a step further, could you show a comparison picture, side by side, of any 1/87 scale vehicle produced strictly for use as a decoration on 1/87 scale train layout with the ' German Heras Wiad ' slot cars?
similar to your comparison of the ' German Heras Wiad ' slot cars to the ' 1:64 Faller AMS ' slot cars.

I am always open to being educated, but it is my current opinion that only TOMY in a Japanese issue only release of 4 cars and two track sets and for a very limited production run that are real 1/87 (H.O.) scale.
again, i am open to new data and gladly accept being educated, but when I compare static 1/87 scale vehicles for display with actual 1/87 locomotive trains, the vehicles are much tinier than any slot car (except the TOMY previously mentioned).

Aurora vibrators and t-jets seem to have been approximately 1/76 scale although on many track sets they were advertised as 1/87.
there is always a lively discussion as to which scale they were and why they weren't properly advertised.
I guess that having a larger scale intended as accessories for H.O. scale/gauge trains wouldn't sell well.

in closing, for now, I like the stimulation these conversations create among those with knowledge and those with hearsay and those who are simply using a term that is convenient and well recognized.

al


----------



## 280A (Apr 2, 2013)

See Wikipedia S scale here: > LINK <

Kind regards,
Marco


----------



## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

I do not question that "S" scale is the current application for most slot cars in that general size.
I even knew that before you posted here, I use "S" scale buildings with my slot cars and die casts.
they certainly are not 1/87 scale nor are they 1/43, 1/32, 1/24, 1/18, 1/12.
they, indeed, seem to be about 1/64 scale give or take for wheels base and attempted realism.

and thank you for attempting to answer my other questions.

al

http://www.slotforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=36474


----------



## Ralphthe3rd (Feb 24, 2011)

In the Model Train World (in the USA), we have, "G" ,"O", "S", "HO", "N" & "Z". And Europe I believe, also had "OO"" and "TT" .
My .02¢


----------



## slotcarman12078 (Oct 3, 2008)

S scale was available here in the states back in the mid 20th century. American Flyer trains used that scale. It just didn't catch on here like the O and HO. 

As far as the discrepancy between train HO and slot HO, in the pre Aurora Playcraft days, small slots were in their infancy, and I believe the British scale called OO which falls in the 1:76 scale area, the precursor to our T Jets was right in step scale wise. When Aurora took over Playcraft and they imported the whole small slotting idea, they felt the scale was close enough to just re-badge it as HO and run with it. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OO_gauge

Remember, it was simpler times. Most of us were kids with a good enough imagination to see things as right even if they weren't perfect. We didn't need computers, calculators, and video games to think or imagine for us. I used hotwheels and matchboxes on my train table and felt that true HO scale cars were too small. I was just happy to have what I did, and worked to get what I wanted. I just wish I knew about T Jets then as I would have been all over them!! It's sad that I didn't really get to understand and love T Jets until 2008!


----------



## 280A (Apr 2, 2013)

@Al, My apology, when I posted the Wiki link I had not seen you post.

But No, I can not make those pictures.
Heras Wiad slot cars are extremely super rare.
The production stopped in 1965, in the early 60s no more than 6000 cars were made. 
In the past there were two hobby websites with detailed information about the Heras Wiad slot cars but unfortunately they are all down. 

The pictures I showed in post #2 were taken in 2007 at the Faller AMS Club Sweden (I'm a proud member) and I don't own the cars.

Heras Wiad cars are never for sale. The couple of cars that are nowadays left belong to collectors who apparently never sell them. 

But the Heras Wiad slot cars are famous among (German) collectors for being true 1:87 scale. 

The Faller Go Karts (from 2006) are also true 1:87 scale, see pictures.
The chassis of the Faller kart is about the size of a 1:64 AMS block motor.

Kind regards,
Marco


----------



## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

I have seen references in my searches just now that "H 0(half 0 or half zero)" is supposed to be the correct term. therefore the 1/43 scale would have to be "0 (zero gauge)" and I am still wondering why the industry would name most scales with a LETTER reference and only the 1/43 (and there by the 1/87) scales with a NUMBER reference. there doesn't seem to be actual documentation of the many assertions that "H 0" is the proper terminology. maybe someone has a documentation via accredited train manufacturers as to the real proper usage?


----------



## slotcarman12078 (Oct 3, 2008)

The other scales have letters too, it's just easier to remember letters. G scale is garden scale which is if I recall correctly 1:24, O scale is 1:43. HO is 1:87, N is 1:160, and Z scale is really freakin' small at 1:220! :lol: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_modelling_scales

There's a bunch of other scales in there, with some pertaining to "narrow gauge" which is less distance between the rails. Even in the 1:1 world, there were discrepancies in standard sizes. The mining industry for one used a different rail spacing probably to reflect the rail they had going inside of the mines.


----------



## sethndaddy (Dec 4, 2004)

Now i'm on the hunt for those Karts, lol.


----------



## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

OK then. LOL
according to Wiki, there are 7(seven) Half Zero Gauges!
so, where does that leave us?
LOL, we are still 1/64, "S"!
but these cars will still be called H.O. by most people world round


----------



## Joe65SkylarkGS (Feb 15, 2010)

HO = Half O

In theory that's what "HO" means

Now, this is a debate that's been going on forever.


----------



## smalltime (Jun 3, 2006)

Joe65SkylarkGS said:


> HO = Half O
> 
> In theory that's what "HO" means
> 
> Now, this is a debate that's been going on forever.


:beatdeadhorse:


----------



## 280A (Apr 2, 2013)

Well, I'm a site editor and moderator on the international Marklin forum (Marklin-users.net) - not that that means something - but I'm dead sure that the correct names are H0 and 0 and not HO and O.

The Märklin catalogs for the US market were/are titled Gauge H0 or Gauge 0, even in 1936, (whereas the catalogs for the European market were titled Gauge 00 and later H0).

To prove this I post some scans of old vintage Marklin catalogs here.

Kind regards,
Marco









*Marklin US Catalog 1936*









*Marklin US catalog 1953*









*Marklin US Catalog 1953*


----------



## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)

The short answer is because that's how we roll in America.


----------



## Bubba 123 (Sep 10, 2010)

smalltime said:


> :beatdeadhorse:


in "Urban-ics"..."HO", ..has a totally "Different" meaning :drunk:

just some comedy 2 lighten the thread up..
yet the Information is FASINATING 2 me anyways..
TY 4 it's history, it from ALL sides :thumbsup:

Bubba 123 (who NOW knows 2 search 4 "S" scale 4 track/ slot & Diecast buildings) :thumbsup::wave:


----------



## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

*you are right*



280A said:


> Well, I'm a site editor and moderator on the international Marklin forum (Marklin-users.net) - not that that means something - but I'm dead sure that the correct names are H0 and 0 and not HO and O.
> 
> The Märklin catalogs for the US market were/are titled Gauge H0 or Gauge 0, even in 1936, (whereas the catalogs for the European market were titled Gauge 00 and later H0).
> 
> ...


......................................................................

so this appears to be a matter of you needing to be correct.
OK. you are right.
feel better?
:wave:


----------



## ruralradio (Mar 11, 2011)

Oh No! Does this now mean that HOPRA and hundreds, nay, thousands of slot racing and hobby groups around the world must change their names? Oh, the humanity!


----------



## 280A (Apr 2, 2013)

alpink said:


> so this appears to be a matter of you needing to be correct.
> OK. you are right.
> feel better?
> :wave:


@Al, no it is not and I don't feel better.
I'm only four months here on HobbyTalk, but you should know me better that that.

I wanted to show that back in the days H0 was H0 in the US too, but at some point in time 'H0' was apparently changed in 'HO'.

I post the scans to show "that it is not only hearsay."

My apology if I sounded to much as a smart ass or wise guy, that was not my intention at all. 

Kind regards from Holland,
Marco


----------



## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

Marco, no harm, no foul.

in this country, when speaking a telephone number to others. many people say "oh" for the number ZERO.
I, for one, do not. a zero is a zero.
I shall have to get into the habit of saying half zero now that I have been corrected, thank you.
and, as you pointed out, most of our toys race cars are "S"/1/64 anyway so I shant be saying half zero very often.
like wise for my 1/43 scale cars, I shall have to get into the habit of saying "Zero Gauge" and then spending quite some time explaining.
in any case, it is always good to learn and have an open mind. by the way, I did say that I had seen quite a few references in my recent searches indicating the half 0 was correct and I was trying with all my might to figure out how to say zero in a way that sounded friendly.
welcome to Hobby Talk and don't let this occasion frighten you away from continuing to contribute.
it was interesting learning about the 1961 cars that you cited and they do seem to have been authentic 1/87 ... half zero gauge.
so, now I know of two manufacturers that have made actual 1/87 scale cars with track.

al


----------



## slotcarman12078 (Oct 3, 2008)

I'll add one more thing to this thread, and then I'll shut up.  

There is a rather noticeable difference in scale between Aurora Vibes and T Jets, Lionel, Tyco S, Atlas and Bachman Slots of the 60's and what the slotting companies produced in the 70's and beyond. Because some dimensions were off simply to accommodate the chassis inside, and most are proportionally incorrect, the general scale of the 60's slot cars classified as H0 are in the 1:72-1:76 scale give 'er take. They were accurate for UK 00 scale, and deemed close enough for not only Aurora to continue hyping them as H0, but for most US train manufacturers to join in the slot car arena at about the same scale. 

Because racing became the majority of the slot car purchases through the mid to late 60's and beyond, the manufacturers focused more on faster, lower, better handling cars. The magnet era threw what was close to HO scale out the window, but kept the scale moniker H0. whether it was because it was always classified that way and they didn't want confusion involved with coming up with a new scale, or they just figured it was close enough to continue the designated name... Only they know.

One of my Mega millions thoughts was to take a stab at a true HO scale chassis. Something that the rivet counting H0 train guys might be interested in. Unfortunately, I don't think it would be nearly popular enough to be worthwhile. Even if these chassis could run at prototypical speeds and fit a multitude of accurate bodies, the rail and slots would be a turn off to most. Even if they cost a fraction of the Faller Road System, IMH0 Faller has a better chance of making a profit than a true H0 slot system.


----------



## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

*It never was H0*

The word is "idiom"... no! really! 

Dialect, expressions or syntax in language that are peculiar to themselves. Slang comes under this heading also.

The OP is actually two questions as I see it. (note that I used the word two and not the #2.)

I've delt with this my entire life. I spoke German as a toddler. I spoke American English as a child/youngster/adult; but I have also used German with my maternal family all along, albeit rusty. I used to laugh at my German relatives usage of proper English. They sounded like Captain Bligh when they spoke English.

Keep in mind that as an outlander even the worst grammatical slaughter still allows one to communicate at a base level. Idiom is the unique stuff that doesnt translate straight across, and leaves one going..."Huh?" in the middle of conversation. It generally involves an additional explanation of a cultural, historical or geographic nature to clarify and bring about a common understanding between the parties involved. 

For example: "I guess you had to be there." Which is "slam dunk" example of American idiom that also illustrates my point. Slam dunk also being idiom. It's a tangled web and most of us dont even recognize that we're doing it.

The fact that the HO slot car industry was gradually homogenized to 1/64 by slot car racing is also a story peculiar to America. The manufacturers didnt want consumers to balk at a new scale. It all happened during a competetive colorful high "zoop" marketing promotion. I blame Tyco for the jump to 1/64. The Tycopro cars were hugely appealing due to their superior speed and handling; but they had to "puff" the scale up to make all the nifty engineering innovations fit under a body. Aurora followed and steroided the 1/72 "pancake" into a 1/64 buckwheat cake (AFX). Pancake is accepted slot idiom. 

At a fundamental level, the idea that the Vibrators were even close to H0 scale is laughable to any rivet counting scale devote'. For a reality check take a look at Wiking's H0 offerings. Somewhat ironic when you consider that we contemplate losing something that never really was. Al hit the nail on the head. The term "H" oh is nothing more than American slang for lil' cars and trains.

"It is what it is." and "Thats how we roll." <more idiom...LOL!

It became "H Oh" because it's easier to say than "H" zero. The spoken language reflects like the people who speak it, and people are fundamentally lazy! The written language follows along begrudgingly somewhat later and then we ask, "What the hell happened?"


----------



## 280A (Apr 2, 2013)

alpink said:


> Marco, no harm, no foul.


Thanks Al, I appreciate your comment very much !!
I enjoyed and learned a lot from your contributions on HB , good to hear that I could contribute some knowledge on the Heras Wiad slot cars too. 

The Heras Wiad slot cars and track were first introduced at the 1961 Nurenberg Toy Fair in Germany. 
To the surprise of the visitors - including the brothers Hermann and Edwin Faller - small cars were 'self driving' on a model roadway, something that until then was never seen before in Europe. This whole spectacle was even more amazing, even for the Faller brothers, because up to that point no one ever heard from the Swabian German company 'Heras' ! 

My gosh, I'd would have love to see the faces of the Faller brothers when they saw the Heras Wiad slot cars. It took two more years before Faller hit the market in 1963 with the Faller AMS system.

To my knowledge this is the only movie that can be found of a running Heras Wiad slot car , made by Ryan Fox in Germany in 2012. 

Kind regards from Holland,
Marco


----------



## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

Well, I wasn't there, but there may be another explanation to why we call HO slot cars HO.

From what I've seen, it has nothing to do with finding the 'correct' scale, but more with the slang that Bill eluded to.
Slot car racers are a different breed from those train guys. Most racers in the 60s ran 24th scale.
Was there any other scale? When someone said slot cars, 24th scale was automatic.
The serious slot car racers raced 24th scale. 32nd scale might be raced, but was for toy tracks at home.
What would you call anything smaller? The larger scale guys named HO cars HO.
After all, they were about the size of those trains and it didn't matter because they weren't gonna race them little cars anyway.
It didn't mean a hill of beans to them that the scale was off a little bit, although the train guys might have been upset about it.
So the name HO stuck, even if they made them a little bigger as Bill pointed out.
Someone asked here one time, "What is HO scale?". The best answer came from Doba....
"About 3 inches. Whatever will fit on the chassis."
That's why you get a Mazda Miata, or a Peterbuilt semi with about the same wheelbase.

Kinda sucks but we live with it. And now is the best time ever for HO slot cars.


----------



## slotcarman12078 (Oct 3, 2008)

Dang it Bill!! :lol: I thought I was done!! One more thing to keep in mind. When Derek Brand started this whole little slot car thing, he was in the UK. The group he was trying to appeal to was the 00 (or is it O0 or OO? Oh oh!) guys. 










Funny it's packaged as 00/H0 and not just one or the other. I don't know if Playcraft had optional RR crossing tracks, or if that accessory was an Aurora add on once they started producing Vibrator cars. 

While I agree H0 slots and H0 trains are a distance apart scale-wise, I do think they were right about on the money where they originated from, seeing that 00 1:76 is primarily a UK scale.


----------



## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

***** Someone asked here one time, "What is HO scale?". The best answer came from Doba...."About 3 inches." 

Hahahahaha ...good one Rich! I'd forgotten Doba's earlier wisdom; but I do remember spraying coffee over my key board when I read it.


----------



## Bubba 123 (Sep 10, 2010)

Bill Hall said:


> ***** Someone asked here one time, "What is HO scale?". The best answer came from Doba...."About 3 inches."
> 
> Hahahahaha ...good one Rich! I'd forgotten Doba's earlier wisdom; but I do remember spraying coffee over my key board when I read it.


yup Bill, no truer words of wisdom spoken; "About...3inches"...LOL :thumbsup:

Bubba 123 :wave:


----------



## Ralphthe3rd (Feb 24, 2011)

Please note the script on this Playcraft Box








It spells out OO/HO....Not 00/H0
And THIS was the FIRST Small scale Slot cars....


----------



## FOSTBITTEN (Aug 1, 2013)

Did you know that the wheel spacing on a Roman Chariot is supposed to be the same as that of the rails of a train? I just saw this once on tv so I dunno if it is correct or not. So I just contradicted myself I think.


----------



## Illinislotfan (Mar 8, 2009)

A little off topic, but I believe you may be correct. And, I call it HO because H zero just doesn't sound right.

The U.S. Standard railroad gauge (distance between the rails) is 4 feet, 8.5 inches. That's an exceedingly odd Number. Why was that gauge used? Because that's the way they built them in England, and English expatriates designed the U.S. Railroads. Why did The English build them like that? Because The first rail lines were built by the same people who built the pre-railroad Tramways, and that's the gauge they used. Why did 'they' use that gauge then? Because The people who built the tramways used the same jig and tools that they had used For building wagons, which used that wheel spacing. Why Did the wagons have that particular Odd wheel spacing? Well, If they tried to use any other spacing, the wagon wheels would break on some of The old, long distance roads in England , because that's the spacing of the wheel Ruts. So, who built those old rutted roads? Imperial Rome built the first long distance roads in Europe (including England ) for Their legions. Those roads have been used ever since. And The ruts in the roads? Roman War chariots formed the initial ruts, which everyone else had to match for fear Of destroying their wagon wheels. Since the chariots were made for Imperial Rome , they were all Alike in the matter of wheel spacing. Therefore, the United States Standard railroad gauge of 4 feet, 8.5 inches is derived from the original Specifications for an Imperial Roman war chariot. In Other words, bureaucracies live forever. So the next time you are handed a Specification, procedure, Or Process, and wonder, 'What horse's ass came up with this?', you may be exactly Right. Imperial Roman army chariots were made just wide enough to accommodate the rear ends of Two war horses. Now, The twist to the story: When You see a Space Shuttle sitting on its launch pad, you will notice that there Are two big booster rockets attached to the sides of the main fuel tank. These Are solid rocket boosters, or SRBs. The SRBs are made by Thiokol at their Factory in Utah. The Engineers who designed the SRBs would have preferred to make them a bit larger, But the SRBs had to be shipped by train from the factory to the launch site. The Railroad line from the factory happens to run through a tunnel in the mountains, And the SRBs had to fit through that tunnel. The tunnel is slightly wider than The railroad track, and the railroad track, as you now know, is about as wide as Two horses' behinds. So, a major Space Shuttle design feature of what is arguably The world's most advanced transportation system was determined over two Thousand years ago by the width of a horse's ass. And you Thought being a horse's ass wasn't important! Now you Know, Horses' Asses control almost everything....... Explains A whole lot of stuff, doesn't it?


----------



## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

Great random bits of knowledge!! :thumbsup:
_...or was that golden nuggets?_


----------



## Dslot (Sep 2, 2007)

The *Okay, So What Scale are T-jets, Really?* thread from 2010 starts off measuring the lengths of various T-jets and vibes to determine what scale each is, lengthwise. Some of the answers are quite surprising, as in "close to or bigger than 1/64". By post 13, we're scaling various T-jet lengths, widths and heights (generally each dimension is a different "scale") and trying to measure why some look more 'wonky' than others.

-- D


----------



## Dslot (Sep 2, 2007)

*H0 vs. HO*

The H-zero (or H-ought) versus H-Oh issue - 

Starting in the 1890s, standardized toy train gauges (they didn't talk about "scales" back then) were numbered like wire sizes or buckshot pellets, and many other industrial commodities. By 1900, there was honking big No.5 gauge (about 4-3/4" between rails), then No. 4 and No.3 gauges, and then the hallowed No. 2 gauge (2-1/8" between rails), so common it was known as "Standard Gauge", and then a No. 1 gauge (now known as G), and shabby little No. 0 or "ought" for the poor relations (a mere 1-1/4" or so between rails). 

As increasing numbers of folks who did not own mansions were able to afford mechanical toys, trains for smaller rooms were needed, so Standard gauge began to fade away, replaced by 0 gauge which became the most common. By the 1940s, there was a "double-ought" or 00 gauge which became standard in Britain. For the rest of the world, there was a break from the industrial naming convention, H0, which stood for Half 0, which it wasn't, but never mind. Americans tended to say Oh instead of Ought for zero, and typographically, HO just looked better than the mismatched H0, so a new convention was born on this side of the Atlantic. Ought became O, numbers had changed to letters, and subsequent sizes of trains were called S (for Sixteenth which referred to 3/16" to the foot), TT (for Tabletop), and N (for Nine mm gauge) and Z. When No.1 gauge was reborn, it was called G. The British stayed the traditional course with Treble-Ought (000, a smidge larger than N scale) in the 1960s, but even its manufacturer used the term Treble-O, preferring the letter designation to the number. It was unsuccessful, and there probably will not be a 0000.

Anybody who is curious about the old numbered gauges can look *here*. Note that differences in standards (metric vs. english), measuring conventions (distance between rails vs. between rail centerlines), and manufacturers' preferences mean that there are often several versions of a single gauge.

-- D


----------



## slotcarman12078 (Oct 3, 2008)

Now that makes perfect sense to me! Thanks D!!


----------



## vaBcHRog (Feb 19, 2003)

Tomy made a true HO scale set a couple years ago






They are cool and truely H0 scale

Roger Corrie


----------

