# The Cold Hard Naked Truth...



## Ductapeforever (Mar 6, 2008)

Now, no reason for anyone to get their knickers in a knot! Go read the original post! (See Link Below.)


http://culttvman.com/main/?cat=47


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## Todd P. (Apr 12, 2007)

Did Steve give you permission to repost this here? If not, I'd ask you to take it down and post a link instead.


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## Ductapeforever (Mar 6, 2008)

I respect Steve's opinions and credited his comments, I see your point as well.

Link to original:
http://culttvman.com/main/?cat=47


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## Todd P. (Apr 12, 2007)

No offense intended, I knew you respected his work. I thought it was good as well. However, it's his content, meant in part to draw people to his website. His blog is a gateway to the rest of his content, which is how he makes his living as CultTVMan.

The only person who should post this here is Steve himself unless he gives someone else explicit permission to do so. Your own comments in reaction to it are fair game, though.

Not trying to be antagonistic but did think I should say something.


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## Ductapeforever (Mar 6, 2008)

I sent him an e-mail, (after the fact) informing him and extending an offer to remove anything offending. In retrospect, I should have asked first. No offense taken.


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## rkoenn (Dec 18, 2007)

Just a note that Steve does copyright his material which I first noted in the Retrotockets newsletter he sends out occasionally. He may not mind you posting it but it would definitely be a good idea to find out.


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## djnick66 (May 2, 2008)

Of course this comes from the same web site that said Lindberg was out of business...


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## Moonman27 (Aug 26, 2008)

So how can we participate in these polls? I went to Round 2s site and I think you have to download a file,print it out and send it in? Bummer,my printer died a few weeks ago,so is there a way to do it online?


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## AuroraFan1 (May 14, 2009)

Where there is smoke there is fire........
Lot of truth in this statement.
The Companies are going to manufacture stuff ( which we may not like or want ), and you either buy it or not. Period.
One thing going on is an article I read that stated how the Hobby Industry is doing so well in Japan, etc.
Fantastic News there, however bad news here.
When I had my shops in California in the nineties, Polar Lights came on the scene, and released the Bride of Frankenstein.
Ordered a case of them and I think I sold maybe 2 each.
Same thing happened with the Frankies Flivver , etc.
Sold a lot of Monogram Creature's though..............
Car kits were the biggest seller ( still seems to hold true ), however Die-Cast sold the most ( Cars ).
The kids at that time were building Low-Rider kits ( AMT 64 Impala ) customizing them, and there were so many great builds coming out of them.
You could never stock enough, and they made the most creative paint jobs and finishes that I had seen.
So, I would say there is hope for the future of our hobby, but it's going to take another creative wave like I stated to kick-start us up again.
My generation (building in the early sixties ) is a dying breed, and I do not expect a kid to get the same excitment on building a Aurora kit like I did ( and do ).
Hey if it happens, great, if not, lets hope that the kit mfg's out there create a " New Era " for the current generation and get them going..........


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## Ductapeforever (Mar 6, 2008)

Finescale Modeler Magazine does a poll at least once a year, and I know a large majority of manufacturers put a lot of weight in the results. May also do some polling on their website. As far as kids are concerned, you must be proactive in this. Our model club works closely with the school district and teaches classes. IPMS is heavily involved too. Dads, it's mostly up to you though. My fondest memories are of building with my dad when I was six or seven. Spend some quality time, teach 'em to build. Teach them the history of the subjects they build, you'll be surprised what becomes of that tiny seed!


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## Zombie_61 (Apr 21, 2004)

AuroraFan1 said:


> Lot of truth in this statement.


Absolutely. And I respect Steve for stating it so directly.

As much as we'd like to think companies like Moebius and Round 2, and even the larger companies like Revell and AMT have our best interests in mind, their first and foremost responsibility is to run a business and, in the process, make a profit. It's easy for those of us who aren't in that profession to whine about kits that don't meet our expectations or "could have been better" (and I realize I'm occasionally guilty of this myself), but the majority of us have only the slightest idea of what goes into the creation of any given kit. It's so easy for us "armchair quarterbacks" to attempt to dictate to these companies what a model kit should or shouldn't be when we have no real idea what it takes to get it from an idea to a product on a shelf.

I don't know for certain, but I'd like to think these people/companies appreciate and see the value in _constructive_ criticism since our opinions, being their potential customers, can often inform them whether or not their concepts and products will be well received. But I also realize the customer is _not_ always right, and I'm quite sure dealing with us lunatics is sometimes an ordeal at best.


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

*I know steve somewhat well, and met him a few times..and we are basically not too far away as we live in the same state..I like and respect him and there is much truth in what was posted as far as what goes in to producing a kit, and delay issues,however, I DO find that post somewhat "condescending"..I think we as adults are pretty aware that no company is engaged in a conspiracy to keep kits from us...all we are asking is for reasonable release dates...and if that cant be done...then simply state " to be released sometime this year or next..."

I also dont think that anyone is "armchair enjineering " any kits for any company..of course, if a "webstore Hobby company" had the chance, they would throw thier 2 cents in , and tell the kit manufacturer how they think a kit might sell, and what features it should have..I guess that could be also construed as "armchair enjineering"...I can only speak for myself when I say I don't frantically complain and sit with my tongue hanging out for any kit...great anticipation??sure...but thats it..I do have a life aside of a hobby first and foremost.

that said...
we are all adults ( as far as I know) ...I think any comments should be addressed to us as adults..I dont think we should be berated as " this is why we don't tell you anything"..my answer to that is:

without US: the purchasing public, the kit manufacturing companies and the webstores, would be out of business....

Give is a little credit, and a bit more respect..we put capital in your pockets...there my be a few "loonies " out there in the hobby , but that does not comprise the majority of us.

and I am well aware of what goes into producing a kit..as I have been involved in the production of a few myself.

Z
*


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## SUNGOD (Jan 20, 2006)

Zathros said:


> *I know steve somewhat well, and met him a few times..and we are basically not too far away as we live in the same state..I like and respect him and there is much truth in what was posted as far as what goes in to producing a kit, and delay issues,however, I DO find that post somewhat "condescending"..I think we as adults are pretty aware that no company is engaged in a conspiracy to keep kits from us...all we are asking is for reasonable release dates...and if that cant be done...then simply state " to be released sometime this year or next..."
> 
> I also dont think that anyone is "armchair enjineering " any kits for any company..of course, if a "webstore Hobby company" had the chance, they would throw thier 2 cents in , and tell the kit manufacturer how they think a kit might sell, and what features it should have..I guess that could be also construed as "armchair enjineering"...I can only speak for myself when I say I don't frantically complain and sit with my tongue hanging out for any kit...great anticipation??sure...but thats it..I do have a life aside of a hobby first and foremost.
> 
> ...



Have to agree with that. The tone is a bit condescending and I don't think I've seen anyone trying to armchair engineer kits. We just put forward suggestions and I don't think most of us expect them all to end up as model kits. They must remember that we're potential customers too.


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

SUNGOD said:


> Have to agree with that. The tone is a bit condescending and I don't think I've seen anyone trying to armchair engineer kits. We just put forward suggestions and I don't think most of us expect them all to end up as model kits. They must remember that we're potential customers too.


*good to see I am not alone in noticing the tone of that post.

Z
*


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

What self-respecting for-profit company would NOT want consumer demand for their products? I'm old, and I've NEVER been shy about telling any manufacturer exactly what I want from them (I do this with film and video production equipment manufacturers all the time), and am used to usually getting what I want.

Don't hesitate to tell any model manufacturer what kit you want from them at any opportunity. Of course, you should always be polite and friendly, while at the same time letting your passion be known to them, since you just may be one of a whole chorus of people demanding the same thing. 

I think it's downright silly to be told that it is not worthwhile or appreciated by manufacturers that you let them know what you want. A company's very survival is based on consumer demand for their products. They all want to make that magic product that sells like hotcakes upon release and net's them a healthy ROI and a tidy profit to boot.

Sadly, most of them will try to second-guess what the customer wants, or will try to market that "hot property" rather than what their customers truly want (can anyone say 1/350 NX-01?), and because the returns on that bad decision are below expectations, it then hurts the chances of later releasing the product that everyone really wants ("ahem", 1/350 1701 "cough") because they don't want to risk the money for a similar-sized kit, because the public's response to the first one was below expectations.

The only way around this problem is by letting the company know exactly what you want from them, whether it be by a poll, email, letter, phone call, model show, etc. But, you should always do so. Let your demands be known to them. They really do want to know, even if someone says that they don't. How will you ever get what you want if you don't ask?


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## Ductapeforever (Mar 6, 2008)

A case in point. The Moebius J-2 was 'arm chair engineered' before it ever got made. Right after the kit was announced and a test shot had been made, people started in...
'...what do you mean it's 18 inches, thats way too big' or some folks said 'it's way too small in 1/72 scale. I want opening doors, I want the pilot episode ship, I want the third season ship, I want photoetch, I want figures that look like the crew, I want working landing gear, I want a lower deck. "Why can't you get both decks in the hull?" I want the hull proportions to look like the third season profile, etc, etc, add nausium. "a hundred bucks is way too expensive." But I want lights and sound, and photoetch, and a robot...on,and on,and on it went. The Moebius folks were twisted every which way but loose. They couldn't seem to please anyone. So they decided not to say anything at all about new kits on the Moebius Forum until they were well underway in production. Now they don't sponsor the Forum, or help moderate it, and very rarely do they post any news at all. Folks couldn't be satisfied to get a decent sized Jupiter 2 kit after nearly Forty years, they almost badgered their way right out of one!


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## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

I really love the way Moebius handles their kit production. I have yet to be disappointed in one of their kits, even the ones that are not totally accurate in the representation of the subject (i.e. big _Seaview_), because there is certainly enough there to make the representation that _I_ want at that scale - through either my own modifications or by aftermarket parts and details.

By the time they announce a kit, it is already a done deal - well on the way in the production stage to where there is no question about IF it is going to be released, only WHEN.

I don't think it's the fault of the customers if they express their disappointment or frustration with another company that announces a kit, says that it is in development, gives an estimated delivery date, gets everyone crazy with anticipation that their "grail" kit is FINALLY on it's way to release, then.........

comes back months later, about the time the customers are expecting to see something tangible from the manufacturer in the way of a prototype mock up that shows that the kit is far along in it's progress and still on schedule - THEN puts out a questionnaire/poll asking whether or not this kit _should even be considered_ for production, or - whether they should release three or four previously unannounced, small-scale snap-toy kits for beginning modelers in lieu of the already-announced "grail" kit that apparently hasn't even entered the production pipeline yet - months after the customers assumed that it was well on it's way through that pipeline - then will complain when the customers are (quite understandably) upset that their expectations haven't been met.

Now, I certainly understand that things can change in a company as far as money and financing for developing and producing a product - especially in this economy. But, when the kit was announced that it was in development by the manufacturer and an estimated delivery date given, there was no mention that the kit's release was still contingent on financing or later approval by the powers-that-be. All we knew, was that it was announced, and naturally thought that all of those decisions had already taken place, and that it was a "done deal" - the model was progress and would be out in just over a year.

I have a nickel's worth of free advice for the model manufacturers: if you want to avoid this kind of situation with your customers, then do them a favor and don't announce a kit unless it is a done deal - it's in the pipeline, the money is there for production, and it is definitely on it's way to release. Other companies follow that practice - and it is working very successfully for them. Don't blame the customer if they get upset because _you've_ dropped the ball on a product that they really wanted and were anxiously awaiting.


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## derric1968 (Jun 13, 2003)

Moonman27 said:


> So how can we participate in these polls? I went to Round 2s site and I think you have to download a file,print it out and send it in? Bummer,my printer died a few weeks ago,so is there a way to do it online?


Yes, you can fill take Round 2's survey right online. Just go back to their Wonderfest page (HERE) and click on the big button that says, "CLICK FOR ONLINE QUESTIONAIRE." Don't waste any time, though. The survey gets taken down on July 1st.


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## Steve244 (Jul 22, 2001)

meh, it's plastic we glue together and paint. If the makers and sellers can't handle some childish anticipation they should be peddling cookware or something.


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## Steve CultTVman Iverson (Jan 1, 1970)

If I'd wanted the material posted at Hobbytalk, I would have put it here myself. I have a bigger problem with someone reposting and adding to it, putting words in my mouth. 

Best to you
Steve


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## Steve244 (Jul 22, 2001)

made me look. Give the article a read.


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## Steve CultTVman Iverson (Jan 1, 1970)

Cripes, there are whole paragraphs in that post that I didn't write.  And what I wrote is taken out of the context from the original post. It amounts to both fraud and plagiarism. And no one asked about reposting my blog, or told me they had done so. 

At the very least, read the original post before you respond. 

http://culttvman.com/main/?p=7397

Steve


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## GunTruck (Feb 27, 2004)

Steve CultTVman Iverson said:


> Cripes, there are whole paragraphs in that post that I didn't write. And what I wrote is taken out of the context from the original post. It amounts to both fraud and plagiarism. And no one asked about reposting my blog, or told me they had done so.
> 
> At the very least, read the original post before you respond.
> 
> ...


Well, I'm glad I read Steve's original comments before responding in the thread. There is a marked difference in the tone and information conveyed in the original versus the repost/annotation...

Thanks Steve.


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## Kit (Jul 9, 2009)

djnick66 said:


> Of course this comes from the same web site that said Lindberg was out of business...


Cult was very careful to lay out the background on this. I don't think this is a fair observation.


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

Steve CultTVman Iverson said:


> Cripes, there are whole paragraphs in that post that I didn't write. And what I wrote is taken out of the context from the original post. It amounts to both fraud and plagiarism. And no one asked about reposting my blog, or told me they had done so.
> 
> At the very least, read the original post before you respond.
> 
> ...


*I did read it before it was posted, Steve, and replied on your blog..and are "awaiting approval" of my post..and its true that alot was added by whomever, but the issue I have is that its ridiculous to think that anyone thinks a kit company is engaged in an "evil conspiracy " to keep us from getting our kits...**.as well as " pleasant suprises await , but I wont tell you".**kind of smacks of a low regard to adult modelers, with that comment, and a bit insulting....I would think you have a bit more regard for us at least as potential customers, if not adults as well..

I agree with the post that no kit should really be announced until its in the works..I think thats a good idea, so that those that solely dedicate themselves to the hobby , wont be chomping at the bit to get them asap..

As a dealer, I would also think you would appreciate that customers do have somewhat of an input as to what kit subjects we would like to see, as we are the ones purchasing them, and keeping your webstore financially successfull, as well as the kit companies.

I would certainly say its a good idea for the consumer that buys the kits of any genre, to have some verbal input as to the kinds of kits they would like to see..its not rocket science...No one is saying controlling creative control,or "armchair enjineering" as you like to call it, but some kind of input.that way, there is a better chance that you, as well as the kit companies will draw a profit, since it would be something that's in a reasonable demand in this niche field..

that said...its we, the customers that keep all the companies alive...and although sometimes it looks that way with a scant few..
we are not kids...we are adults...communications between us should be treated as such.

Z

*


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## Jimmy B (Apr 19, 2000)

Just my opinion. These forums do include private message features. Because someone isn't quite in tune with copyright boundaries and all that go with it, I find it completely unnecessary and uncalled for to blast that user on the open forum.


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## Kit (Jul 9, 2009)

Zathros said:


> *I did read it before it was posted, Steve, and replied on your blog..and are "awaiting approval" of my post..and its true that alot was added by whomever, but the issue I have is that its ridiculous to think that anyone thinks a kit company is engaged in an "evil conspiracy " to keep us from getting our kits...**.as well as " pleasant suprises await , but I wont tell you".**kind of smacks of a low regard to adult modelers, with that comment, and a bit insulting....
> *


Again, don't think that's fair, especially after the experience with the Giammarinos, and the promises that were being brought here even though some posters were warning that they were not to be trusted.

We're only a small piece of the customer base that a model business needs to attract, and although it feels like we're the hot, burning core of the hobby to some of us, it seems to me a fast way to go out of business to try and make choices based on the comments here.


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## ShadOAB (Apr 29, 2007)

Hey Steve! Exercise your legal rights. If you're going to place copyright on something you created...then you had a reason to protect yourself against this kind of copy & edit situation--with it still having your name on the creation.

Otherwise...what's the point of copyright?


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

Kit said:


> Again, don't think that's fair, especially after the experience with the Giammarinos, and the promises that were being brought here even though some posters were warning that they were not to be trusted.
> 
> We're only a small piece of the customer base that a model business needs to attract, and although it feels like we're the hot, burning core of the hobby to some of us, it seems to me a fast way to go out of business to try and make choices based on the comments here.


*I would say we are a "small customer base" of the general model business..however, we are a large base of the classic sci fi, figure , and aurora re-issue business, and that's whats being discussed here, not the general base..the vast majority of what moebius puts out, as well as a good portion of PL is geared towards our base, not the general one..

now lets get to the Giammarinos, to focus on that comment you made:

if you are discussing my time with them...
I did not own that business,and was briefly employed as a consultant.. I was 100% up front with all here..the main reason I got involved was to specifically find out how authentic that company was, and if you check the history of the subject here on this board, I came back with a full report..I myself made no specific promises..I came back with what I saw, and what was supposedly thier promises..not my own. I wont go into what I found, as its all available here..and some here thanked me for my efforts..I suggest you look it up, as steve suggested you read his post instead of the one here..before you make any uninformed comments about what happened there..in that, I find your comments unfair to me..

the bottom line is and I am not accusing steve here, that we all should be treated as potential adult customers, not adolescents, and I believe our input as to what we would like to see could be of help, as WE..( again at the risk of disgusting repetition) are the buyers of the product...seems PL has that interest, and I think moebius as well...

Z
*


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

Jimmy B said:


> Just my opinion. These forums do include private message features. Because someone isn't quite in tune with copyright boundaries and all that go with it, I find it completely unnecessary and uncalled for to blast that user on the open forum.


*replies and "blasts " are 2 different things.

Z
*


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## Kit (Jul 9, 2009)

Z, don't get me wrong. In no way was I suggesting you intended to deceive anybody, the way the Giammarinos clearly did. I was only suggesting that you were taken in by them. 

I remember it all quite clearly, although I had never posted then. If you recall, it took a long time after it was clear they weren't going to come through and there were many, many warnings for you to come on and tell the sad story, but you did in the end. And it hurt nobody more than you. You had put in a lot of time and effort for no reward other than a few Fokkers and a lot of I tolja so's.

But I believe you do overestimate the importance of the crowd here. How many really active posters here? Hundreds, 1,000? It's still a small portion of the audience even a science fiction or pop culture model company needs to capture, and so atypical, it might even be deceptive to listen to these folks. Besides, there's not much consistency when you really look at all the comments. 

Also, let's face it: The original kits that we love were chosen with no feedback from the kids that bought them, other than sales figures that came in much later (Frankenstein yes, Big Frankie no). Sometimes people don't know what they want until you show them what they can have. My guess is Atlantis chose the animal kits because there was no tricky license involved and they thought they're cool, not because the online community was screaming for them, unless I missed it.

My growing worry is that there are too many products coming for the money available to buy them.


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## TAY666 (Jan 8, 2000)

Zathros said:


> but the issue I have is that its ridiculous to think that anyone thinks a kit company is engaged in an "evil conspiracy " to keep us from getting our kits


Then you need to get around more.
Not all places on the internet are as civil or as well educated as this one is.
I have indeed heard people complain that there is a conspiracy to keep them from getting the 1:350 Enterprise.
I have seen entire discussions going on and on about said evil plot.
And how it is all just a cruel joke that a certain plastic model company owner enjoys playing on fans.
Seeing as how he has done it with 2 companies now.

Or they think it is some kind of marketing ploy to get people to buy the other kits.
To "support the company" so they can afford to make the kit.

You would not believe some of the ideas thrown out there that are actually discused as true possiblities.


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

TAY666 said:


> Then you need to get around more.
> Not all places on the internet are as civil or as well educated as this one is.
> I have indeed heard people complain that there is a conspiracy to keep them from getting the 1:350 Enterprise.
> I have seen entire discussions going on and on about said evil plot.
> ...


*wow...that is suprising..and its surprising to me, that anyone would actually be that ignorant as to think a kit company doesn't want to make money, and by not producing a kit*,* it serves them no purpose,
but a loss of a possible successful subject....I am actually more surprised that any company or dealer would take them seriously. as with every hobby, there are always a few loonies...but the point is don't treat us all as if we are loonies...

Z
*


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## Zathros (Dec 21, 2000)

Kit said:


> Z, don't get me wrong. In no way was I suggesting you intended to deceive anybody, the way the Giammarinos clearly did. I was only suggesting that you were taken in by them.
> 
> *Thanks for clarifying that, Kit*..*my apologies at the misunderstanding on my part*.
> 
> ...


*Thats why I always ** prepay **the moment a kit is confirmed to be released, from a company that is reliable in delivering...that way, I dont have to worry about it when it gets released..of course, it helps to have the funds on hand...*

*Z*


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