# Any info on Star Trek Phase II?



## ursulescu (Nov 17, 2002)

(1977) Paramount announces a fourth television network. Its flagship series is Star Trek Phase II. The as yet unwritten pilot is scheduled to air in February 1978. Walter Jefferies later designs a refitted Enterprise, and Brick Price is contracted to build the filming miniature. [Source: Star Trek Phase II: The Lost Series (Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens, Pocket Books, 1997)] 

Just wondered if there were any picture links to this ship.


----------



## Rattrap (Feb 23, 1999)

I'm afraid the Phase II book is your best reference to that Enterprise. Brick Price had (not sure if he still does) a picture on his site which he claims is of the filming model. Frankly, it looks more to me like a kitbashed TMP Enterprise, but I admit that just may be my perception.

Maybe Cory McDaniel will decide to do the Phase II ship as part of his line sometime in the future.

-The Rat


----------



## ursulescu (Nov 17, 2002)

What is Brick Price's website?


----------



## Joe Brown (Nov 16, 1999)

I don't know if Brick has a website of ship models; here is a nice collection of ships that are on other sites, though:

Click this


There are also designs at: http://www.shipschematics.net/


----------



## ssgt-cheese (May 31, 2000)

*Possible phase II Enterprise to be used on series II????????*

Welcome to the board ursulescu.

I believe that this link may show some rare pics of the phase II E. 

http://www.starshipbuilder.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000001.html

Click on the images to enlarge. Hope this helps.

Mike :wave:


----------



## SFCOM1 (Sep 3, 2002)

Mike,

These pictures look very much like the TMP model prior to it's refit for the theatrical movie. (hence the updated ID penents and Photon Torpedo design. Nearly the same as in TMP)

I remember seeing an article where the model was striped and detailed to a far greater scale for the big screen.

I think the Art of Star Trek might show the model in that condidtion as built by Abel and Associates.

John Nelson
Glendale, AZ


----------



## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

The model pictured IS the Phase II ship...or what is left of it. Brick Price decided years later to modify the original Phase II model to more closely resemble the Motion Picture Enterprise model as built by Magicam. 

Personally, I wish he had left it in the original design condition of the Phase II TV series design. The only major design influences that remain from the TV version are the details on the warp engine nacelle near the front on the left and right sides. 

Pity.


----------



## Arronax (Apr 6, 1999)

I remember seeing a drawing of a proposed Enterprise that had a wedge shaped saucer.

Then there's this one from the early TMP teaser poster.

Jim


----------



## ssgt-cheese (May 31, 2000)

*Hello fellow modellers.*

John, I agree with Trek Ace on this one. The series II was ready to go until they(the Big cheese at Paramount) decided to turn it into a motion picture. All the models(including the Klingon cruiser) were heavely modified for movie screen. 

Is there anybody on this board that has a copy of the Cinefex issue that talks about the special effects of STTMP? Maybe there's mention of the models used on phase II before they got upgraded it.

Do we consider the phase II E. canon? It maybe an interesting subject for a scratchbuilt.  

Mike :wave:


----------



## Ziz (Feb 22, 1999)

IDIC has these pics of the P2E, although even this one I think has been tweaked a bit to look more like the TMP version.

Also, the P2E and the actual TMP FX model are two different models. The P2E was about 6 feet, the TMP is a little over 8 feet.


----------



## Ziz (Feb 22, 1999)

P2E under construction


----------



## Ziz (Feb 22, 1999)

Another shot


----------



## Jay Chladek (Apr 17, 2001)

Gee, I'm surprised that Ziz hadn't mentioned my long running saga with trying to do a Phase 2 Enterprise kitbash. Maybe he's trying to not mention it in the hopes he will get his Ultimate Bridge done first (yet he already has a strong lead). 

Anyway, I've researched that beast quite a bit and the Phase 2 book from Pocket Books is your best reference for that ship. Most everything else I've found just supliments the images found in that book. The "Art of Star Trek" book also contains an additional painting of the P2E, and this was used as a basis for the Enterprise on the cover.

It looks like the line drawings in the book are as accurate as you can get, considering they look almost identical to the Enterprise bridge graphics seen in TMP, Trek 2 and Trek 3 (the destruct sequence image with the countdown number on it). Watch Okuda's text commentary on the DVD of Trek 2 as he calls out the graphic from the weapons console during shield activation. Except for a couple details on the pylons, this graphic is identical to what is in the book.

Near as I can tell, the Phase 2 Enterprise model was never 100% finished in its Phase 2 guise. Star Trek Phase 2 was actually cancelled early in its conception, but Paramount continued with development of the sets, models and stories as they didn't want to tip their hand that they were going to go with a motion picture and there was still a possiblity that a TV show might be planned for after the movie at that point. So, the model didn't really have a chance to be finished. 

Brick Price apparently had inherited the molds for that ship, but I haven't been able to get an email response from him on the Phase 2 ship during the several inquiries I made. Other sources (such as Rick Sternbach) say that the ship was actually built by Don Loos, so it depends on who you talk to as far as who the builder (or builders) was.

The details on the TMP like ship that Brick did indicate that it definately has Phase 2 origins. The warp engines are the dead giveaway and the TOS like shuttlebay is another clue. It makes no sense that this model would have been built with these key Phase 2 features if it wasn't indeed the Phase 2 miniature or casted from the original molds and modified. The Phase 2 model itself was never shot for TMP, but it is possible that certain elements of the TMP design might have been tried out on this model as it was almost completed and available as a study model. But this is just speculation on my part.

As for my continuing mission (a 5 year mission extended to 10 years at this rate) to do a Phase 2 model, I am using a movie Enterprise kit as the basis and some minor details are being donated by a Cutaway TOS E and some resin bits provided by DLM and Andy a.k.a. Stars for the impulse engine and the bridge dome (which is a Soyuz bridge, modified slightly). I have all the parts I need and I pull the model out once in awhile, work on it and then put it away when the project gets tiresome. Then a few months later I start the saga over again. I did mods to the saucer and the secondary hull, but I'm going to transfer the mods to a new model as I managed to acquire a built smoothie for dirt cheap (still not quite as cheap as Ziz's though) during the summer months and will work on that instead. This way, I can do the mods a little better and I won't have to worry about filling that really awful tile pattern. About the only assemblies that still need work from scratch are the saucer pylon and the warp engine pylons. Decals won't be a problem as I have the ALPS printer for that. And before anyone asks, no I don't have any plans to finish this model as a master for a resin kit. I might provide a couple bits that I had to resin cast to somebody for use as a basis for resin parts. But this model will be an only one.

Maybe I'll get the courage up to finish it for Wonderfest this year, but I've said that before and still have not met that goal. But keep asking me from time to time and maybe I'll get closer to finishing it.


----------



## ursulescu (Nov 17, 2002)

ThanX everyone for all the links and info on this ship. 

The reason why I was interested in this project to begin with is that I have had that same comic book advertisement for ST:TMP in my special ST picture file collection for many years now. This is the same ship that appears on the "Blooper" advertisement on one of the web pages. The only difference is that the comic poster was in colour.

I scanned it into the computer when I first bought a scanner, but because that comic was very old and very dammaged, (Actually all that was left was the front and back cover, totally crinkled too.) I spent the whole afternoon remastering the photo itself as well as removing the ship from the black space background and actor's photos and placing it into a blue nebula scene. With these other photos I downloaded, I might make a collage showing the completed photo in the middle with the unfinished model pics surrounding it, just for reference. I might even place it on the net too, if anyone is interested.

ThanX to everyone's help, I am able to see other angles, such as the top and warp engines. This is vital information and I reason that with some scratchbuilding, I could create some motors and struts to hold them on. I was also thinking of using the AMT old 18" Enterprise kit (6676) as a basis, even though the PII saucer looks considerably bigger. I am going to try and keep everything in proportion to make it look balanced. 

I also reasoned that there are 2 Phase II Enterprises, both of which were never shown. The first is the one in the comic poster, and the second is the one that resembles the TMP one with "Wacky" motors. I think you know what I mean, right?


----------



## Jay Chladek (Apr 17, 2001)

Well, the one on the teaser poster was drawn by a movie poster artist and isn't based on a model at all. If you look close at it, it has features that appear to have been introduced in the Phase 2 artworks and were planned for the studio model. But, the artist used it as a basis for this different design (with altered elements of the Phase 2 ship) which is only intended to draw a viewer's attention and not show anything from the film itself.


----------



## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

There were several renditions of the Enterprise in her journey from Original Series to Phase II, and finally to TMP release version.

The original plan was to have the exterior stay the same familiar Enterprise design from the original series, albeit with a remodeled interior. There are artist conceptions depicting this. 

Soon after, it was decided to remodel the exterior as well, resulting in nearly a dozen slightly different designs by artists Matt Jefferies, Mike Minor, Joe Jennings, Richard Taylor and, of course, Andy Probert. There was also a radical concept provided by Ralph McQuarrie, that retained the saucer and engine pods, but dispensed with the cigar-shaped secondary hull and replaced it with a triangular wedge-shaped version with a large, wide shuttlecraft hangar in the rear (I think someone mentioned that one earlier).

The first versions retained most of the features of the original TV version, with most changes being with the engine nacelles and struts, going from a cylindrical shape to the more aquamechanimorphic design as seen in the motion picture. The sensor dish and spike on the secondary hull were present through many of the first concepts, giving way to the recessed, glowing, spike-less dish of later versions.

Other features that were more hard-edged and squarish on the original ship were eventually rounded and made more streamlined. The Phase II model was slightly past the "half-way" point in it's depiction of what would become the final design. Even the 100-inch movie model, built by Magicam, went through several cosmetic changes before arriving at the final, Doug Trumbull-influenced self-illuminating version in it's final form.

ACE


----------



## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

What is your source for all this information you're always stating, "Trek Ace"? I'm curious to know as you often talk about stuff yet rarely give a reference. 

-------------

Jeffrey Griffin
Griffworks Shipyards
Last Updated 16 November, 2002!


----------



## Bay7 (Nov 8, 1999)

I've always believed that the PII is the refit filming miniature - or at least some of it.

There are lines that appear on the refit in it's TMP paint scheme that would look like panel lines, unless you're looking for seam lines where the parts have been extened or altered.

The joining part bettween the secondary and primary hulls is the same length of the PII up to the seperation lines at the top. There's also a diagonal(sp?) line that goes down the rear of that section that I think is the seam line where the section was extended. IMO, the torpedo side sections look like a slightly different shade compared to the rest, as though they have been added later.

The section of the hull near the shuttle bay has marks - that look like seam filling at the exact point where the PII would have been extended.

Also, ILM always complained that it was a monster of a miniature that took 7 people to lift, in my limited TV verses movie miniature construction experience, TV miniatures always seem to be built to bulky standards and the images in the PII book of the ship under construction seem to fit that bill.

I do have pictures to back up my claims, I just need to dig them out.

Anyway, just MHO.

Mike


----------



## sbaxter (Jan 8, 2002)

>aquamechanimorphic

I now live with the hope that, one day before I depart this life, I'll have a reason to use this word.  

Qapla'

SSB

"You are wrong, Zord! Your ray is no match for Lord Gorlock!"


----------



## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

The Phase II model and the TMP model are not one and the same. The PII model was built for the demands of the TV screen and used construction and detailing techniques to meet the requirements of that medium. Details that appear acceptable on a 20" TV screen are woefully inadequate when projected on a 40' movie screen. The PII model was too small and lacked the required detail for the extreme demands of motion picture photography.

A new, larger model was then commissioned, this time built by Magicam, supervised by Jim Dow. Many of the same design elements of the PII were retained, but they were refined and brought up in detail. This model was built with a heavier armature and weighed a lot more than it's PII predecessor, coming in at 85 pounds. As an example of how tough this model is built, the metal engine struts themselves are half-inch thick aluminum plate! The skin is plastic, the pylon shells being styrene backed with foam. The secondary hull is made of transparent butyrate and the saucer from 1/8-inch ABS. There was no fiberglass used in the construction of the movie model as there was in the PII ship. I know of ILM's complaint about the weight of the model, but it was built to last indefinitely, not just for one film. (Note: The original series model came in at 250 pounds, which makes the movie model is only 1/3 the weight of the original}.

The metal armature itself had to be designed and built to extremely high tolerences, allowing for absolute-zero repositioning in the event that if it needed to be reshot, it could be repositioned on the mount and shot in exactly the same position as before. The model itself had to move, so there could not be any chance it would ever quiver, wobble, etc., while moving or this would destroy the illusion of a large, thousand foot vessel easing out of drydock. It also had to be able to keep it's shape and never sag or bend, allowing it's participation in any future sequels down the road.

The model could be supported in five different locations:

1) Bottom of secondary hull.
2) Left side of secondary hull.
3) Right side of secondary hull.
4) Front of secondary hull, behind removable deflector dish.
5) Aft through the hangar bay doors.

Now, with all this, Doug Trumbull (who took over visual effects production from Robert Abel & Associates) complained that the movie model itself was too small, that it was only one-fourth the size that he felt was necessary to convey such an immense vessel believably on screen. But, with only eight months left to finish the required visual effects in time for release, building an even larger model was out of the question, so the existing model was rewired and (along with the Klingon ship model) superdetailed into the existing rendition of the model that we all know and love. 

Using scale lighting techniques and reproducing certain areas of the ship exterior in larger scales, the effect of a large ship was pulled off and appeared quite convincing.

ACE


----------



## Joe Brown (Nov 16, 1999)

Indeed -- many of those details were covered in Starlog #27, October 1979, pgs. 26 - 30.


----------



## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

I remember a rare shot of the Klingon ship miniature that still retained the D7 nacelle, before being redetailed for the movie screen. Is that the same article?


----------



## Bay7 (Nov 8, 1999)

Well, some people believe that man never walked on the moon and that Shatner's hair is his own and I still believe that elements of the PII ship were used in the refit miniature.

I had an image of the PII side profile taken from the PII book and had it printed on clear plastic. When I overlaid it on the same image of the refit from Scotts guide to the Enterprise, it appeared to be the same scale and elemnts started to look like they were once the PII but later altered to look like the refit - hence my connecting dorsal enlargement theory with matching paint scheme variation to hide join - or as I like to call it C.D.E.T.W.M.P.S.V.T.H.J. - for short.

Here's a picture to show what I mean (I hope!)

Mike


----------



## Joe Brown (Nov 16, 1999)

Trek Ace said:


> *I remember a rare shot of the Klingon ship miniature that still retained the D7 nacelle, before being redetailed for the movie screen. Is that the same article? *


Yes, that's the one.

Scroll down (way down) until you see 'TMP D-7.jpeg' after you click on this.


----------



## Tony Hardy (Oct 23, 2002)

For a number of years one of the finished Brick Price/Don Loos castings was on display at the Planet Hollywood in New York (it may still be there).

Currently one of these models is on display at the Planet Hollywood in Las Vegas and has been for some time. This model appears to be a couple of feet smaller that the final model built for the motion picture. 

A buddy of mine worked on the motion picture, and when I showed him photos of the Phase 2 version at Planet Hollywood he felt that the model was indeed smaller than the Magicam version. Although the only way to know for sure is to take a measuring tape to each of them.

Tony Hardy


----------



## ursulescu (Nov 17, 2002)

Here is a picture I compiled last night of all the different Phase II pictures that everyone posted plus the one I fixed rom my old magazine. Hope you like it.


----------



## ssgt-cheese (May 31, 2000)

*Hi fellow modellers. May I join the fun.*

I love these long debates. So how about some images to add fuel to the fire. 


http://www.stguardian.to/fed/constitutionrefit/pretmprare01.jpg

http://www.stguardian.to/fed/constitutionrefit/pretmprare.jpg

http://www.stguardian.to/fed/constitutionrefit/mattjeffriesconc.jpg

http://www.stguardian.to/fed/constitutionrefit/mattjeffriesconc02.jpg

http://www.stguardian.to/fed/constitutionrefit/mattjeffriesconc01.jpg

http://www.stguardian.to/fed/constitutionrefit/construnusual.jpg

http://www.stguardian.to/fed/constitutionrefit/phaseIIent.jpg

http://www.stguardian.to/fed/constitutionrefit/phaseIIent01.jpg

http://www.stguardian.to/fed/constitutionrefit/phaseIIent02.jpg

Enjoy 

Mike


----------



## ursulescu (Nov 17, 2002)

Pic was too big the first time around. Had to shrink the Jpeg. Hope you can all see it ok though.

Shrinking didn't help. It becomes too small to visually comprehend. Sorry all!


----------



## Bay7 (Nov 8, 1999)

See?

Here's a picture with the complete movie style warp engines but with the PII secondary hull (you can see it's the PII cos the shuttle bay looks wider because it's further into the fatter section than the refit).

http://www.stguardian.to/fed/constitutionrefit/pretmprare01.jpg

Mike

(thanks ssgt-cheese)


----------



## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

Joe Brown,

Thanks for confirming that article for me. I have an entire filing cabinet and most of a bookcase filled with model references, plans and such. I don't always remember where certain specifics can be found.

Bay7,

The photo you attached is of the Magicam model with the detailing as it was first built. There were some design similarities that were shared between this model and the Phase II, but they are not the same model. This represents the model as it was when at Abel's facility.

When production of the motion picture was begun, the contracted fx provider was Robert Abel & Associates. While I won't go into the political details, in early 1979 Abel was removed from responsibility by Paramount and replaced with Douglas Trumbull of Entertainment Effects Group (EEG).

As was stated earlier, when Doug Trumbull took posession of the model, he determined that it needed additional detailing and also went with a concept of the starship being self-illuminating. The model was then rewired and additional lighting fixtures and point sources were installed, which then transformed the model from resembling the Phase II model into the final version that was seen in the film.

Years later, Brick Price, who built the smaller Phase II model, then modified THAT model to more closely resemble the larger Magicam model.
The modified Phase II model is what is on display at Planet Hollywood.

The two models are of different scales, built for different venues by different companies.

ACE


----------



## ursulescu (Nov 17, 2002)

Here is that pic. Sorry it couldn't be bigger. Maybe someone can tell me how it's done with only a 30000 byte catche.


----------



## Bay7 (Nov 8, 1999)

So is the ship that I attached the same as the 'under construction' one show in the below link?

http://www.stguardian.to/fed/consti...effriesconc.jpg 


I suppose they could have altered the warp engines after the the construction pictures were take so that the inner blue bit would slant at the end rather than be a vertical cut ala the above image.

Or does it look like it slants in the above image - it's a good point cos I'm trying to build the PII and I don't want it to be wrong!

Cheers,

Mike


----------



## phase_pistol (Apr 13, 2002)

Some sketches by Mike Minor and Ralph McQuarrie, culled from period Starlog and Mediascene mags....


----------



## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

Kewel! Thanks for posting those, "phase_pistol". Much appreciated!

I had always wondered where they got the designs for the nacelles on the Endeavor class heavy cruisers as seen in "Ships of the StarFleet - Volume One/Revised". While this design lacks the antenna styled dish, the nacelles are definitely the same. And here I always thought it was a completely fan produced "upgrade"! 













Also, the bottom ship out of these three look familar to anyone else?  










Maybe the design isn't so "new" as we'd thought, only the details. If this has been mentioned as being the basis for the NX-01 version, I've never heard it, so forgive me. 

Thanks again for sharing those images! 


-------------
Jeffrey Griffin
Griffworks Shipyards
Last Updated 16 November, 2002


----------



## phase_pistol (Apr 13, 2002)

As to the Ken Adams E / NX-01 connection, I think it's just coincidence... in the top view, McQuarrie drew the wedge shape really big, and in the bottom view, really small.


----------



## Jay Chladek (Apr 17, 2001)

Bay, if the pic you show of the underconstruction model is the same one under the same title as the one in SSGt Cheese's post (I get a 404 error linking to yours) then no, that is the Phase 2 Enterprise under construction, NOT the TMP model. I can back up Trek Ace's research on the appearance of the ship as built to the specs of Robert Abel & Associates before the self illumination system was added since my research indicates the same conclusion. As for the shuttlebay in the other image, you are seeing a shadow giving the optical illusion that the doors are hemispherical like the Phase 2, and not triangular. Page 32 of the ST Mechanics 4 book has a pic of the TMP model in Abel guise with a similar shadow on the doors, but the hangar bay is clearly easier to see.

In the December 2001 issue of ST:The Magazine, there is a picture of the Magicam model under construction with the early-style lower sensor dome. Its on page 87. Somebody else will have to scan that one and link to it as I don't really have a free space to place the image at this time. Page 87 also has the original TMP exterior blueprints drawn by Richard Taylor printed in small scale (or at least line drawings based on the blueprints). And this I know as I have seen the original Taylor blueprints up close.

Cheese, I don't know why you had to add those screen caps from stguardian in your links. Those are just pictures of the AMT Enterprise kit that some wag built with the engines on sideways and the window parts not installed on the saucer. The silver model from season one TNG was originally in the Captain's Ready Room, when Stargazer almost became a Constitution class. When it was relocated to another room, some other wag decided to stick the engines on backwards (and the model is on the stand backwards), probably to have some fun with detail obsessed Trek fans.


----------



## ssgt-cheese (May 31, 2000)

*Sorry.*

Jay Chladek wrote:

"Cheese, I don't know why
you had to add those
screen caps from
stguardian in your links."

Sorry Jay it was not my intention to post these links, I was rushing posting the reply that I mistakenly cut and paste the wrong links at the begining of the post. Again sorry.

Mike


----------



## Jay Chladek (Apr 17, 2001)

Don't sweat it Mike, I've made mistakes like that before also.


----------



## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

Phase Pistol,

Thanks for posting all of those concept art images. I haven't seen some of those in over 25 years. I think I may still have a copy of the original line drawings of the "spider-web truss" spacedock represented in the artwork on the bottom with the original Enterprise exterior.

There are still more pieces of concept art that depict both alternate and in-between versions of the ship as shown in these renderings. There is one that I remember having lit matter sinks on the front of the engines (resembling the engines that are on what I've heard now referred to as the "Endeavor" class). Yet another that had solid, unlit fronts on the nacelles (ala the original Phase II design).

There were over a dozen different renderings by several artists that followed the gradual transformation of the Enterprise from the original series version to the one depicted in the motion picture.

When I get some free time during the holidays, I will dig and see what I can come up with.

If I ever had enough time, I would like to do a model representing each of the concepts from original to Phase II, and the different stages of revisions the physical (movie) model itself went through to reach it's final form.

ACE


----------



## phase_pistol (Apr 13, 2002)

*thanks*

Thanks ACE! 

Feel free to post up any dusty ol' things you find... 

- Karl


----------



## ursulescu (Nov 17, 2002)

I sure did pick a good topic, didn't I?


----------



## ursulescu (Nov 17, 2002)

Looking at the 18' AMT model of the Enterprise and compairing the underside of the primary hull with the underneath of the Phase II Enterprise, I notice that both kit and photo have the 3 sink holes which, for the longest time, were seen as an error in accuracy by AMT. Perhaps they were gearing up to do a Phase II version of this ship and were going to use the same Primary / Secondary hulls with the addition of new warp engines and support pylons. Therefore, an AMT inaccuracy can be an advantage for building the Phase II Enterprise.

What do you think?


----------



## phase_pistol (Apr 13, 2002)

*phase2*


----------



## Jay Chladek (Apr 17, 2001)

Well, the three dimples in the AMT kit have been on the TOS Enterprise model from day one (i.e. 1966). Its possible that the model builders of the Phase 2 ship might have been working to incorperate something similar into the studio model or the painters of the pre-production artwork only had the 18" kit to work with as a 3D reference for the ship and details on it, even though the AMT kit was inaccurate in several areas. Even in the pictures of the Phase 2 under construction, you can see an AMT TOS Enterprise on a cradle stand, sitting on the workbench. But we will never know for sure as the studio model was never finished as the Phase 2 ship. 

However, the Phase 2 is so different from the TOS ship that just grafting on new engines won't do it. If anything, it seems that AMT might have been starting early design work on the new Enterprise when Phase 2 became TMP as the lengths of the intercooler grills on the warp engines look to be about the same length as those for the P2 design when they should be longer on the TMP ship.

I have been considering adding the dimples to my Phase 2 effort and turning them into airlock hatches. An enlarged section of the secondary hull was built with a docking hatch for the planned docking pod sequence (what ultimately became the travel pod sequence in TMP), so I'm thinking that if the dimples ever wound up on the Phase 2 ship, that these would be docking hatches, since they would sit at about the same angle as the hatches on the secondary hull.

BTW, Phase pistol just posted pics of the TMP ship and at least one can be found in the ST Mechanics 4 book. The top two pics are shots of the TMP ship after Trumbull took over the effects work and are of the ship without its starfleet logos (probably for lighting tests). The bottom shot is of the same model built for Robert Abel and Associates by Magicam and it has the different bridge and lower saucer sensordome, without the sidelights.


----------



## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

Jay is absolutely correct about the photos.

The bottom one is of the TMP model while still in the posession of Abel. The lower dome, B-C decks and bridge were later replaced with the light-fixured versions when Trumbull took over the effects. The torpedo bays were changed from looking more like forward-facing impulse engines to the finely-detailed launchers as seen in the film.

While some of the test shots done at Abel's had looked promising, there was a problem with "scale" in the way the model was lit. The model would look just like that - a model, or, at worst, a plastic toy, the lighting often washing out the fine detail present in the model. Trumbull solved this problem by:

1) Determining that when the ship would travel away from the sun, the only available illumination would have to come from the ship itself, like an commercial jet or an oceanliner at night - therefore it should be self-illuminating, and

2) By "scaling" the light sources and lighting the ship with small pools and flecks of light, that this would create a sense of immense size - the light raking and shining over the very subtle, detailed pearlescent paint job representing minute plating and paneling on the surfaces with subtle differences in color, shading and specularity. He felt that these steps would help sell the ship's scale.

He was correct.


----------



## phase_pistol (Apr 13, 2002)

You guys are good!  That's right, those last pics are from Star Trek Mechanics 4.

I always wondered what the deal was on the "Blank" Enterprise, without ID and pennants but otherwise ready for TMP, which shows up sometimes in preproduction promotional pics, bubble gum cards, etc.

We also learn from the TMP DVD that those "pools of light" were provided by reflected light from DENTAL MIRRORS in a bunch , under the ship!










All these scale-making tricks were abandoned in later films (the pearlescent paint was redone as flat gray, and the pools of light reduced to simple shapes around the registration numbers... that's why the ship looks so toylike in Trek 5 and 6...


----------



## phase_pistol (Apr 13, 2002)




----------



## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

It was truly heartbreaking to see Paul Olsen's beautiful paint job dulled-over and forever lost by the folks at ILM. They complained that the varied specularity of the individual panels wreaked havoc with their bluescreen process and the only solution to the problem was to "dull" the surface so as to not reflect the bluescreen. The ship was also lit with yellow-gelled light to cancel any blue reflection that might yet spill onto the surface of the model (the yellow cast being optically removed later).

Doug Trumbull's crew had previously gotten around the problem by using a technique known as front-light, back-light matting. Whereas the model is first shot against solid black (the "beauty" pass) with full lighting on the model. Subsequent passes are shot for windows, running lights, deflector dish light, etc. For the matte pass, all front lighting is turned off and a white screen is lit behind the model, therefore silhouetting the ship against the solid, back-lit background. There was still a problem with "spill" light shining on the model surface, which caused "holes" in the matte, requiring later rotoscoping to "fill in" the holes to create a solid matte that would then be used to composite the ship together with the background element(s).

Sorry to bore everyone with these details. I know I tend to ramble on. That's the aging process for you. This thread is 
_supposed_ to be about the Phase II TV ship and the differences between it and the movie model. The problem with the subject is that the Phase II model was never fully realized in it's original form before it was abandoned in favor of building a newer, larger and more detailed model for the movies. We can only imagine how the final product would have been represented had it been completed as originally designed.

Since there really is no one "definitive" representaion of a finished Phase II ship, any model scratchbuilt to represent it would not necessarily be regarded as being either "right" or "wrong" in it's portrayal. With all of the different concepts shown, it would be better just to pick one and go with it. Seeing any of them in solid, three-dimensional form would be fun.  

ACE

PS Keep that artwork coming, Karl. You're on a roll!


----------



## phase_pistol (Apr 13, 2002)

Good points!

And I was WONDERING why all my behind-the-scenes pix of the E had this horrific yellow casts to them... :LOL

- Karl


----------



## phase_pistol (Apr 13, 2002)




----------



## phase_pistol (Apr 13, 2002)




----------



## Jay Chladek (Apr 17, 2001)

Yes, very good points. My particular rendition of the Phase 2 ship will be pretty close to what was seen on the cover of the Phase 2 book and will use the three view line drawings as a reference. But still I'll need to add a little bit of innovation for details that apparently weren't finalized. 

One thing that I am bothered about on the design is the lack of writing on the warp engines, with the side mounted "NCC-1701" markings being located on the secondary hull instead. So I think I might add markings to the top of the engines (which are essentially flat) that are similar to what has been seen in later Trek shows and on NASA rockets. I'll need to do a few tests of what I'll put up there though before I finalize such markings though.

And I see Phase Pistol has provided more rare photos of the Abel version of the TMP ship. Looks like the majority come from various merchandise tie-ins, probably his bubblgum cards. The top one I think I saw in an issue of Star Trek the Magazine though, clearly showing the photon bay that looks like an impulse engine. Interestingly enough, the blueprints for that ship originally showed something like hatch doors that covered the photon bays. I like the redesigns better presonally.


----------



## phase_pistol (Apr 13, 2002)

So Jay, when do we get to see pix of your Phase 2?


----------



## Jay Chladek (Apr 17, 2001)

Well, when I get far enough along to provide pics that look like more then just grainy sub-assemblies.  I think Steve might have reposted on his site a couple workbench pics I shot a few years back of the nacelle endcaps I made and the grafting I did of the Cutaway shuttlebay to a movie Enterprise secondary hull. But I need to redo that area now that I have a smoothie to work with.

BTW, anyone remember the TMP Electronic U.S.S. Enterprise toy from Southbend Electric? That toy essentially was made to the Abel specs and has the different saucer and bridge dome. Too bad I trashed my toy long ago as trying to get one for a decent price from eBay is like paying a king's ransom these days.


----------



## Steve CultTVman Iverson (Jan 1, 1970)

I'll see about reposting Jay's Phase II materials when I update the On The Bench section. The pics were mainly of the nacelles if I recall correctly.

Steve


----------



## Bay7 (Nov 8, 1999)

Jay Chladek said:


> *
> 
> BTW, anyone remember the TMP Electronic U.S.S. Enterprise toy from Southbend Electric? That toy essentially was made to the Abel specs and has the different saucer and bridge dome. Too bad I trashed my toy long ago as trying to get one for a decent price from eBay is like paying a king's ransom these days. *


I remember seeing one of those a while ago on eBay - funny looking thing, I left it too late and missed out on bidding on it - a shame really because it only went for about $30!

Would have been nice to add it to the collection - ah well.

Mike


----------



## phase_pistol (Apr 13, 2002)

Jay: sharp dude! Yes those shots are from my old b-gum cards. 

And I don't have a South Bend Enterprise but I can hijack somebody's pics! 

http://www.calormen.com/Star_Trek/SouthBend/


----------



## Nightingale (Jan 20, 2000)

I've got that Southbend Enterprise!! I had an original, then it somehow migrated to my nephew's were it met it's fate. I then reaquired one out of Toy Shop magazine before the eBay inflation hit 
(Exact same story can be said of my Mattel Eagle!). 

I want to get rid of most of my Star Trek toys, but that ain't one of them!
I like the thicker saucer section.


----------



## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

I've got one of those! It's DaBomb! Would kinda like to find a second, though. Have this idea to use the nacelles for a kitbash.... 


-------------
Jeffrey Griffin
Griffworks Shipyards
Last Updated 16 November, 2002!


----------



## phase_pistol (Apr 13, 2002)

Griffworks said:


> *I've got one of those! It's DaBomb! Would kinda like to find a second, though. Have this idea to use the nacelles for a kitbash....
> *


Or maybe a little resin recast action would provide the required nacelles... 

- Karl


----------



## ursulescu (Nov 17, 2002)

I was thinking that if you were to build a P2 ship, that it wouldn't be "Canon" no matter how close you built it to photos, whatever photos those would be. The fact is that for ST:TMP, they used the ship that they did, so that any ideas from before wouldn't be in the existing ST universe. 

However, since the original AMT Enterprise kit was so inaccurate, that it wouldn't be canon either, due to it's many flaws.What do you think?

for another idea.....These names appear on the instruction sheet of AMT / ERTL’s 18" plastic model kit #6676, FORM #099-0523, as being the names and numbers for the original Constitution class ships. In addition to the ship names in the instruction sheet are the original numbers of each of the ships. They are as follows: 

U.S.S. Constellation NCC - 1017 
U.S.S. Republic NCC - 1371 
U.S.S. Constitution NCC - 1700 
U.S.S. Enterprise NCC - 1701 
U.S.S. Farragut NCC - 1702 
U.S.S. Lexington NCC - 1703 
U.S.S. Yorktown NCC - 1704 
U.S.S. Excalibur NCC - 1705 
U.S.S. Exeter NCC - 1706 
U.S.S. Hood NCC - 1707 
U.S.S. Intrepid NCC - 1708 
U.S.S. Valiant NCC - 1709 
U.S.S. Kongo NCC - 1710 
U.S.S. Potemkin NCC - 1711 

These names are the Franz Joseph names and numbers. 

Now for the question part.....

If the original Constitution Class numbers were made in 2245 and put on ships that looked like the "Chris Pike" Enterprise, and that the Constitution class ships were upgraded as time went on so that at the last episode, they looked like the "Kirk" production Enterprise of 2269, then where would the Phase II Enterprise fit into this, and if the Phase II Enterprise was also built as other ships, what FJ numbers would be used? 

What I mean is that obviously, the original 14 ships MUST have been refit as the years went on, but Starfleet would also be forced to build newer Constitution class ships as the older ones were either lost or destroyed. 

So if Starfleet were to build a BRAND NEW Phase II style Constitution Class ship, how would that fit in?

I figure that I will use the FJ book and lable my model with the 1800 series names and numbers, showing that these ships were still Constitution class ships, but they were of a newer time, a time in between TOS and TMP.


----------



## ursulescu (Nov 17, 2002)

This is an exerpt from the original Technical manual.

Heavy Cruiser Class of the Mk-IXB (1800 series) Authorized by Star Fleet appropriation of stardate 5930 :

Alphabetical listing Numerical listing	

Acrux 1818 Tikopai 1800
Adhara 1827 K’ushui 1801
Agena 1816 K’hotan 1802
Aldebaran 1812 Altair 1803
Alioth 1828 Fomalhaut 1804
Alkaid 1829 Nakarat 1805
Alnilam 1830 Vega 1806
Altair 1803 Arcturus 1807
Anak 1821 Pollux 1808
Antares 1820 Capella 1809
Arcturus 1807 Darion 1810
Arided 1831 Sardar 1811
Bellatrix 1832 Aldebaran 1812
Betelgeuse 1822 Hor 1813
Binar 1819 Canopus 1814
Canopus 1814 Spica 1815
Capella 1809 Agena 1816
Castor 1833 Vena 1817
Darion 1810 Acrux 1818
Deneb 1826 Binar 1819
Dubhe 1834 Antares 1820
El Nath 1835 Anak 1821
Fomalhaut 1804 Betelgeuse 1822 
Helios 1825 Lux 1823
Hor 1813 Rigel 1824
K’hotan 1802 Helios 1825
K’ushui 1801 Deneb 1826
Lux 1823 Adhara 1827
Miaplacidas 1836 Alioth 1828
Mirfak 1837 Alkaid 1829
Murzim 1838 Alnilam 1830 
Nakarat 1805 Arided 1831	
Pollux 1808 Bellatrix 1832
Polaris 1839 Castor 1833
Regulus 1840 Dubhe 1834
Rigel 1824 El Nath 1835
Sardar 1811 Miaplacidas 1836
Shaula 1841 Mirfak 1837
Spica 1815 Murzim 1838
Tikopai 1800 Polaris 1839
Vega 1806 Regulus 1840
Vena 1817 Shaula 1841
Wezen 1842 Wezen 1842 

I was also thinking of using the AMT numbers, the narrower, more inaccurate ones, to show that they had changed the design a little too.

What do you think, for a hypathetical version, that is?

Any names leap out at anyone? I like "U.S.S.Polaris NCC-1839", but it makes me think of bottled water.


----------



## phase_pistol (Apr 13, 2002)

I don't consider Franz Josef to be "canon", although some of the Constitution Class deck plans and exterior diagrams were "forced into canon" by dint of appearing on monitors in the Movie era.

So in a way, FJ (and other peripheral stuff like Star Fleet Battles) and the "Phase2" designs are all about equally "non canon"! So let you mind roam and don't be afraid to do your own "custom" stuff that feels right to you.

- Karl


----------



## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

I noticed recently that McDaniel Models has out one of the Phase II design concepts (almost) as a vacuform kit: The Endeavor.

The original concept art was basically an Original Series saucer, secondary hull, and deflector dish with spike. The changes were tapered pylons (straight, not swept back) and flatter, oval-shaped warp engine nacelles. The McDaniel model is very close with the main difference being a TMP-style recessed, glowing deflector dish.

It wouldn't be difficult to modify this kit into a true Phase II concept ship. I may get one myself and give it a go.

As to the hull lettering, one could use a font called Microgamma Bold Extended, which is like the Starfleet Bold, only without the red outline. This is the font that was used in the Tech Manual. I used it for a model based on the Loknar class from the StarFleet Battles game of the late 70's to early 80's.

One could also speculate that the Defiant (NCC-1764) was one of the last of the original-design Constitution class that was constructed. After which any vessels of a similar class would incorporate features between what was seen in the series and the movies.

But, enough with all this conjecture and speculation. Build whatever you want, with whatever lettering style you want and have fun doing it!

ACE


----------



## phase_pistol (Apr 13, 2002)

McDaniels Models, and the "Ships of the Star Fleet" books, take a great approach to all this... it's ALL good!  They mix and match parts from TOS, Franz J, Phase 2, TMP...

The Endeavour for example has a Franz J saucer and "Phase 2" nacelles... 

- Karl


----------



## phase_pistol (Apr 13, 2002)

OK, here are Richard Taylor's drawings from Star Trek the Magazine, 12/01... apparently Probert and Taylor sat down to redo the 4-footer that was being built for the Phase 2 series, to prep it for the movie, and this is the first pass...


----------



## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

Well, that's a possible plan that was in my head for the Southbend toy, believe it or not. However, I need to modify the nacelles a bit, first. Don't want to take a chance on screwing something up that can't easily be reversed. 'Sides, that thing is kinda kewel to fly around the house.... 

-------------

Jeffrey Griffin
Griffworks Shipyards
Last Updated 16 November, 2002!


----------



## Barry Yoner (Mar 6, 1999)

The McDaniel Models kit of the Endeavor that I got was an interesting and challenging build! And I mean that in a GOOD way...!  

When I built mine earlier this year I ended up substituting the saucer for another (a 30-year old AMT one, no less!) when the original one proved unusable. However, I thought highly enough of it to order another when Cory had his sale running!


----------



## ursulescu (Nov 17, 2002)

I think the Endeavour engines would look better upside down on the pylons to what they are now.

That way the rear curve of the endines would match the rear curve of the hanger bay from side profile. 

I've seen this model semi complete (In primer) at one of our club meetings. a guy brought it in from Edmonton Alberta.

When I saw it, I thought of the old "Teaser poster" verson, but on a second look, I noticed that it wasn't quite "There".


----------



## ursulescu (Nov 17, 2002)

Does anyone know how to post images here? I press the img button and get something wierd and when I try and tell it to open a comp file, it doesn't dig it out. When I use the "Browse" button and load a file, it then tells me it is too large, exceeding the 30 000 bytes. So I have reduced photos to the point where you can't see what they are, converted them to gif, jpeg, bmp, etc, and it still rejects them. Yet when I check the porperties of the pics everyone else posted, they are way above the 30 000 size. 

Is there some kind of trick to this? Griff suggested that Ziz or Steve might know. Could you please help me out.

Trevor


----------



## phase_pistol (Apr 13, 2002)

Save your files as jpgs for the web... Gif is sometimes better for some images, and some browsers can read PNG, but don't use BMP or some other format.

I try to compress my pix to under 50K each... I think the per-post limit is actually about 300K. 

Then I upload 'em to my web space at .Mac.

Once the pic is available on the web somewhere - that is, it has an URL you can type into a browser and get it to display your picture - you can put the URL in your post with the IMG tags around it.

I noted you tried to post a pic earlier that was actually on your hard drive... do you have a web space to upload them to?

- Karl


----------



## Nightingale (Jan 20, 2000)

Trek Ace wrote: "2) By "scaling" the light sources and lighting the ship with small pools and flecks of light, that this would create a sense of immense size - the light raking and shining over the very subtle, detailed pearlescent paint job representing minute plating and paneling on the surfaces with subtle differences in color, shading and specularity. He felt that these steps would help sell the ship's scale. 
He was correct."

Imagine if Trumbull had been able to build the Enterprise to the larger scale he wanted? AND filmed in 70mm? Drool. Drool.

Phase Pistol wrote"

"....why the Enterprise looks so toy like in Trek's 5 & 6."

ESPECIALLY Trek 5! Ugh.


----------



## phase_pistol (Apr 13, 2002)

Here's a Jefferies sketch that was in the Profiles auction last year.... looks like the Phase 2 enterprise to me (note the nacelle "nipples", double bridge elevator bumps, hangar doors etc.)...

But look how far back the "photon torpedo" structure goes! The dorsal is awfully wide and far back too.

- Karl


----------



## Barry Yoner (Mar 6, 1999)

Hey Urulescu- you said... "I've seen this model semi complete (In primer) at one of our club meetings. a guy brought it in from Edmonton Alberta. "

That was me! It's still in primer stage. No place to paint here.

"When I saw it, I thought of the old "Teaser poster" verson, but on a second look, I noticed that it wasn't quite "There"."

No, it's not. It's not Phase 2 per se; but it is based on the concept. The Endeavor really is a TOS ship with different pylons and engines!

Ships of the Star Fleet Vol 1 is the place to look for the info on the Endeavor sub-class.


----------



## Jay Chladek (Apr 17, 2001)

Actually, the Phase 2 design has origins in Matt's original design sketches for the TOS Enterprise back in 1964. As I understand it, after he came up with the configuration that we know and love, he still went through a few additional sketching passes to see if something might be better (which most designers tend to do). A couple of his concepts wound up looking pretty close to the Phase 2 design and just a little refinement in the warp engine areas were all that was needed. A couple of these sketches can be found in the three part Matt Jefferies article from ST:The Magazine. At first I thought they were Phase 2 sketches, but somebody confirmed to me (perhaps Shane Johnson) that they were indeed from 1964.


----------



## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

Jay, 

Could you _(or perhaps someone else who has it and knows)_ give the issue number w/the Matt Jeffries article, please? I know I'd appreciate it as I don't have it but would like to back order it. Many thanks in advance! 

-------------
Jeffrey Griffin
Griffworks Shipyards
Last Updated 30 November, 2002!


----------



## ursulescu (Nov 17, 2002)

Hey Barry Yoner!  Small world, isn't it? The ship looked great. Where did you get it from andwhat else does he stock? Those warp engines look like something that the Klingons would use, don't you think? When are you going to come down to Calgary again and show off your stuff? You should try and complete it and see if you can't get it posted with Griffworks. He's a good guy.


----------



## ursulescu (Nov 17, 2002)

Pardon me for the attempt, but let me try and see if this image will work. 










This is a Phase II killer!


----------



## ursulescu (Nov 17, 2002)

How about this?


----------



## ursulescu (Nov 17, 2002)

U.S.S. Endeavour with motors upside-down and a sensor dish added.









The Phase II picture from the poster on a new background with some pictures from the actual model.


----------



## Barry Yoner (Mar 6, 1999)

Sorry, the pics on the last 2 messages aren't appearing.


----------



## ursulescu (Nov 17, 2002)

It worked! It worked! ThanX to Phase Pistol for the help. (Sorry for making the page appear so big though.)

You can see more photos at this link : http://www.geocities.com/ursulescu/startrekpage.html


----------



## Barry Yoner (Mar 6, 1999)

I got the Endeavor model from McDaniel Models. He doesn't actually "stock" all the kits he has, but makes them as they are ordered. I'm not sure if I can post the URL for MM here as Steve has some strict guidlines regarding the usage of such.. but you can contact me separately and I can give it to you then in order to not to run afoul of the rules....! 

I don't know when I will be making it down to Calgary next, but it's not often I can time it for one of the club meetings! I wish I had more "stuff" to show you... but as those who know can attest.. I have a hard time actually finishing a model! 

Yes, the engine design (at the time when it when published) received some criticsm about looking too "Klingon"! I still think it's a neat design, though.


----------



## ursulescu (Nov 17, 2002)

Every ship needs it's crew. Anyone seen Xon lately?


----------



## ursulescu (Nov 17, 2002)

Try looking at those photos again Barry. They may take a little longer to download on your computer, but I can see them in mine. They became a little too large for the regular page, so there might be a slight download / time problem.

If not, you could try the link I posted to the other pics on that site and try it out.:hat: 

Try to get the ship finished and bring it to the show in April (I think it is.) and let's see it then. It looked to me like all it needed was some paint and decals. 

Good luck!:thumbsup:


----------



## Barry Yoner (Mar 6, 1999)

They show now!! I posted that message when you were still getting them to work, and they were white boxes with red 'x's!

ANd I have a fast computer with a cable modem. Pictures load FAST!


----------



## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

Must be a Geocities thing, 'cause I don't see nuthin' but lil' white boxes w/"X's" in 'em. Your new website is taking forever to load the pics, too, Trevor. 

But, hey! It's FREE, right? You get what you pay for, I guess. 

-------------
Jeffrey Griffin
Griffworks Shipyards
Last Updated 30 November, 2002!


----------



## Jay Chladek (Apr 17, 2001)

Sure Griff, its February 2000, Volume 1 issue 10. There were also two other articles that appeared in the issues immediately following this one, but this one contains the sketches for the Enterprise design itself. Of the others, one deals with the internal sets and the other deals with secondary spacecraft, such as the Shuttle and the Klingon cruiser. Its well worth getting in my opinion and there are lots of nice design ideas for other ships.


----------



## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

Kewelness. Thanks, Jay! :thumbsup: Looking through my seriously limited collection of ST:TM issues, I find that I have Issue 12, so will only need to pick up the other two. Appreciate the help, good sir! 


I also see that they now actually list the contents of each issue towards the back of the magazine these days. Darn me for not seeing that sooner!  I also notice a few other back issues I might wish to pick up. Will check out their website later to see how much these things run. Prolly more than I can afford in one go! 

Thanks again. 

-------------
Jeffrey Griffin
Griffworks Shipyards
Last Updated 30 November, 2002!


----------



## ursulescu (Nov 17, 2002)

I think the internet is out to get me! Anyone know of a better picture posting site? It sux that I have so many pics and stuff that would be benificial for this conversation, but that they are getting screwed up and becoming useless. Unless one of you has a better idea, perhaps Geocities isn't stable enough.

ThanX for the help again.


----------



## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

Nah. I think it's just that Geocities doesn't like me...  

You might want to check in to your local ISP's policy. Most ISP's offer up webspace as part of your account. In fact, a lot of them offer up to 10Mb. Though AOL's kinda in that regard (standard is only 2Mb), they allow you up to 7 accounts for free! And then you can also increase your allocation by doing other things. Nothing bad, mind you... 

Anyhow, not trying to sell AOL, just pointing out that some ISP's offer up free webspace for their clients. 

HTH, 

-------------
Jeffrey Griffin
Griffworks Shipyards
Last Updated 30 November, 2002!


----------



## ursulescu (Nov 17, 2002)

Wierd!

If I "PERSONALLY" load up Geocities, I can see the pictures that I posted on this link. They appear where the white boxes are with the red squares. 

IF I don't do this, they just appear as white boxes without the pictures.

The internet can sure be stupid at times!


----------



## Barry Yoner (Mar 6, 1999)

For those of you with PC's (instead of Mac's -but only because I don't own/use of those) If you right click on the white-box-with-red-X, select Properties, highlight the web address, copy n'paste into the address bar, and it will take you to the hosting site with picture. When you go back, the picture will also show in the message!!

It did for me this morning...!!


----------



## ursulescu (Nov 17, 2002)

ThanX Barry.

Could you tell me the dimensions of those warp endines on your model of the Endeavour? The height, width, and length please?


----------



## ursulescu (Nov 17, 2002)

ThanX Barry.

Could you tell me the dimensions of those warp endines on your model of the Endeavour? The height, width, and length please?


----------



## Barry Yoner (Mar 6, 1999)

The Endeavor's engine dimensions at Cory's stated 1/650 scale of his kits are:

Length- 10 15/16" 25.3cm;
Width - 9/16" 1.4 cm;
height - 1 1/16" 2.7 cm

Please note that the height dimension is taken right from the front of the engine owing to it's wedge shape.

Hope that helps!!


----------



## ursulescu (Nov 17, 2002)

ThanX Barry. I was wondering how they compair to the original (Kit supplied) motors. Also curious about the support struts. What do they measure in at? Also, do they fit into the slots on the secondary hull without adaptation? I was thinking of scratchbuilding some up.


----------



## Barry Yoner (Mar 6, 1999)

The pylons are essentially the same as the original kit ones; same width and thickness at the base, and the top of the pylons (which are the same length) are twice the width of the bottom where the pylon meets the secondary hull.

Note that the "screen" on the inside surface is bascially a triangle with the point cut off. I accidentally wrecked the engraved detail on the McDaniel kit and ended up filling it in with putty. I will paint it on (or use an appropiate decal) afterwards!

Hope that helps, too!


----------



## ursulescu (Nov 17, 2002)

I was thinking of making the struts like a styrene sandwitch. The inner triangle being the Rail Road Box Car siding. Then it might resemble the look of the motion picture Enterprise supports, if you know what I mean.

ThanX for the help.


----------



## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

I thought I would give a booster shot to this great thread. Here is yet another artist's rendering of a Phase II concept. I haven't referenced this artwork in over 25 years, so please forgive the obvious creases as I have not cleaned it up. I may give this one another try in the near future and repost.

I'm now on vacation, so I have actually started work on a Phase II Enterprise model, due to the influence and revived interest that this thread has generated. I'll use a bash mix of parts from the Enterprise refit, cutaway and Reliant kits as well as a lot of scratchbuilding in order to realize it. The first step is in creating a set of plans, which are a combination of the Matt Jeffries plans and details included from photos of the unfinished model and concept art.

Happy(modeling)Holidays.

ACE


----------



## ursulescu (Nov 17, 2002)

Interesting picture. Looks like the ones posted on the previous page. I never thought my thread would be so big.


----------



## uss_columbia (Jul 15, 2003)

This subject came up in another thread, and I thought I'd take the opportunity to revive this one.
Could Phase_Pistol or someone who saved copies repost all the undoubtedly very interesting pictures Phase posted here that are now broken links? It would be much appreciated!


----------



## MGagen (Dec 18, 2001)

Jay Chladek said:


> Actually, the Phase 2 design has origins in Matt's original design sketches for the TOS Enterprise back in 1964. As I understand it, after he came up with the configuration that we know and love, he still went through a few additional sketching passes to see if something might be better (which most designers tend to do). A couple of his concepts wound up looking pretty close to the Phase 2 design and just a little refinement in the warp engine areas were all that was needed. A couple of these sketches can be found in the three part Matt Jefferies article from ST:The Magazine. At first I thought they were Phase 2 sketches, but somebody confirmed to me (perhaps Shane Johnson) that they were indeed from 1964.


I can't speak for the images in ST Magazine, but I know there is a drawing by Jefferies in either the ST Scrapbook or Art of Star Trek that is captioned as an original design from the 60s which looks very much like the Phase II Enterprise. Problem is, it is dated in Jefferies' own hand, right on the drawing, from sometime in the '70s (1977, I think). This makes me suspicious of any claims that he had come up with the refit design back in the 60s. 

Matt Jefferies is definitely responsible for the intial redesign that became the Movie Enterprise, but as far as I know, his work dates from later, when he was asked to update the design for Phase II.

If someone has hard evidence to the contrary I would be grateful for it.

Mark Gagen


----------



## uss_columbia (Jul 15, 2003)

The drawing MGagen refers to is in the ST Scrapbook (twice, actually), and is dated 6-77 on the drawing.


----------



## Joe Brown (Nov 16, 1999)

Here's my take on McQuarrie's design -- I used elements of both proposals.

Next to the Rapier fighter:
http://www.spacemodelmania.com/models/wfest2k3/veh1_008s.jpg
Solo:
http://www.spacemodelmania.com/models/wfest2k3/veh_2173.jpg

I've got to take some better pictures of that model.....


----------



## NJFNick (May 22, 2004)

I'm looking for some realy clear images of the "Abel" spec (pre Trumbull changes) TMP Enterprise. Particularly showing the yellow torpedo launchers and the Bridge are. This version was different enough to be worth doing in 1:350 along with the other 2 or 3 versions i can see myself doing! 

Iv' seen the usual shots but there must be some rare, quality shots in someone's collection.

 Anyone any ideas?


----------



## Bender23 (Nov 1, 2004)

Hello everyone -

I realize that I am coming to this party very late in the game and I apologize if this information has alread been posted. I searched the thread and did not see it. Check out this site:

http://www.cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/STMPEnterprise/Phase2Drawings.htm

It is too bad the quality is not sharper.


----------



## GLU Sniffah (Apr 15, 2005)

This is one old thread!


----------



## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

But, a great one!


----------



## NJFNick (May 22, 2004)

It only took just over eleven months to get a response......

Much appreciated Bender23! :thumbsup:


----------



## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

I thought we mentioned that one already!


----------



## Bender23 (Nov 1, 2004)

Here is another:

http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/enterprise-phase-2-refit-program.php

Again, apologies if it has been previously posted. I do not see it.

There is something about Phase 2 that has always fascinated me. I am constantly on the lookout for references to it, especially ship drawings, models, schamatics and even the original scripts that were written for it.

More links as I stumble across them...


----------



## geino (May 9, 2006)

About a year or so ago someone on Ebay sold one of the 2 original filming models from TOS. They had the full history on it, including the fact that this one had been modified for Phase 2, but had most of the modifications removed before being returned (I think to Matt Jeffries). One of the modifications that had remained was the neck had been lengthened. I am looking to see if I kept the text and or pictures.


----------



## uss_columbia (Jul 15, 2003)

^ Are you sure you aren't thinking of the Klingon Battle Cruiser miniature? I remember that one.


----------



## geino (May 9, 2006)

From what I remember the auction stated it was one of 2 filming models. Since one is in the Smithsonian, this was the second one. It stated that it was from the private collection (I think they specified Jeffries). The auction did list some of the changes that were made and then reversed for Phase 2. The auction stated that several changes were made, but the only one that was kept before the model was returned to its original owner was lengthening of the neck. So this ship is a little longer than the one in the Smithsonian. 

I havent been able to locate the files, but I am still looking.


----------



## Trek Ace (Jul 8, 2001)

Maybe this will help:

http://members.aol.com/IDICPage/AMTprototype.html


----------



## Bender23 (Nov 1, 2004)

Does anyone here have any of the scripts that were written specifically for Star Trek Phase 2 (beyond those few that are printed in the 1997 Reeves-Stevens' reference book) that they'd be willing to share or trade? I have some of them and am seeking to complete (as much as possible) my collection.


----------

