# Braid Laying Tips



## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

I am at the point with my three lane test routed track (2x4 oval on MDF) where I need to lay down one lane with magnetic braid and the other with non-magnetic braid; the third lane is already done with copper tape. This will allow me to test all three types.

I am having trouble with laying the braid. I have an old how-to video from Ed Bianchi where he shows how to do this using Elmer's Carpernter's Wood Glue. He puts glue in the braid slot, lays in the braid and presses it down - and it sticks. I tried it and mine starts coming up right away.

Although Ed does not do so, I think I may need to let the glue start to "set up" before I start laying in the braid. That's a little scary, especially if it doesn't work. Right now, once I fail, I can quickly clean up the braid and MDF and start again. If the glue gets too set, I may not be able to recover.

So if you have laid braid before, can you describe the method you used.

Thanks...Joe


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## partspig (Mar 12, 2003)

The "trick" to laying braid "The ED Bianchi Way" is to go get an iron. Yes, an iron that you press your shirts and pants with! The heat from the iron makes the glue "cure' fast, just like adding an accelerant to CA glue. Do it this way; lay a bead of glue where you are going to lay the braid, be careful to keep it out of the slot or you will have more work to do later cleaning out the slot, take your finger and smooth it out so that there are no gaps, and to ensure you get a nice even coat of glue, lay the braid on the part that has been glued, and take the iron that has been heating up, so it is ready to iron a shirt (you will know if the iron is hot enough if a drop of water sizzles when dropped on it) and hold the braid in place with one hand and "iron" the braid down with the iron. The heat in the iron drives out the moisture in the glue under the braid and VOILA!!! The braid is glued down. You will hear the glue "sizzle" as the hot iron passes over it, that means the iron is doing it's job and the braid is being glued down OK. I did about three feet at a time, before adding some more glue to the next three foot section. Do one side of a slot at a time. GO SLOWLY to ensure that the braid you are laying is straight! To repair braid that has come up use the same process, maybe cleaning out any turds of glue that would keep it from laying flat. For the first try at this, I suggest using a scrap piece of wood, some leftover bits of braid and doing a practice session before trying it on your track. Have a good day!


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## vickers83 (Mar 8, 2010)

I owned 2 1/24th scale routed tracks. We always used contact cement. One coat on the braid, And one coat on the track. Allow the glue to get tacky, and press into place. I had a home made brass roller to press the braid down. This method always worked for me.


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## Tsooko (Oct 15, 2009)

Hey Joe
Some guys use double sided sticky tape. Lay a strip
down on the mdf . peal off the protective covering , Then lay the braid over it, pressing it down with a rolling pin. Voila'.
No glue in the slot.
3M has the right stuff.

Cheers Ted


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

Tsooko said:


> Hey Joe
> Some guys use double sided sticky tape. Lay a strip
> down on the mdf . peal off the protective covering , Then lay the braid over it, pressing it down with a rolling pin. Voila'.
> No glue in the slot.
> ...


Hi Ted,
I saw that tape listed on a "how-to" track routing website. I'd like to find it locally if I could, but don't know of any stores that specialize in tape.

Probably the way to go; should be a lot easier than glue. As Partspig points out, I may need to iron the braid down if I do use the Elmer's glue.

Thanks...Joe


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## Tsooko (Oct 15, 2009)

If you Google 3m tapes the website has different tapes but you will also find a place that will find you a dealer in your area. you just put in your zip code. 
The iron thing sounds like it might work and you could try it right away.
Good luck. :wave:
Cheers Ted


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

Got a chance today to try the "Cooking with Glue" method. We had an old iron at home and it really did the trick. It was also very easy and very quick. I used the non-magnetic braid on this lane; the next lane I do will have the magnetic braid. 

I set the iron heat to about the 1/3 position. I then laid a bead of glue in the slot, smoothing it out with a popsicle stick. Then, as I started laying the braid into the recess, I immediatly pressed it down with the iron. This was a two person operation as I had my dad feeding me the braid as I worked with the iron.

The result was good. The braid stayed down in the recess for the most part. I probably did not put enough glue down to start, something I will correct on the next lane. The braid came out basically flush with the track surface (as far as I can tell). I was hoping for a slightly raised braid, but the flush braid seems to (somewhat) work with the couple cars I tried (Lifelike M, T-Jet and Tyco TCR with pin); more on this below.

Some observations.

I did not get too much glue on the track surface. This is an unpaited MDF board so I wasn't concerned about cooking the glue into a painted surface. But it was good to see that I didn't make a mess.

Being non-magnetic, there is no downforce on the magnet cars, therefore there is very little pressure between the braid and the pickup shoes; especially considering the braid is flush. This causes some occasional loss of contact. Also on the magnet cars, the front wheels will sometimes not contact the track surface.

The Lifelike M chassis bounced a lot. I attribute that to the design of the front axle which has a lot of play in it. When you take away the magnetic downforce, the front axle bounces all over.

The T-Jet chassis worked pretty good. The only problem here was the fact I used a 1/8" slot. This leaves a lot of side-to-side play for the guide pin and there is enough play so that the pickup shoe(s) can move off the braid in the turns and the car stalls. Also, a 1/8" slot allows skinny T-Jet tires to fall into the slot when you fishtail. While the idea of a 1/8" slot is appealing (so the track could also be used for 1/43rd), I do not think it is a good idea for HO cars.

I need to make the braid recess a little more shallow. I measured the braid and thought I got 1/32" thick, but when I looked at the specs, it said .025" which is 1/40" thick. I tried to cut the braid slots to 1/64", but getting that kind of tolerance is difficult.

The braid recesses are already cut for the third and final lane at the same depth. When I install the magnetic braid, I will see what effect that has on the magnet cars. At that time, I should be able to determine whether I need to raise the braid just a little.

So hopefully by this weekend, I will have a three lane track of copper tape, braid and magnetic braid.

Thanks...Joe


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## clydeomite (May 5, 2004)

Howdy: i know you solved your delimma but In the old days of 1/24th slot tracks we always used 3M weatherstrip glue. It is yellow in color and just lay it on the surface of the track and press it down. We laso used a braid iron to seal it quicker. It always worked for us. But that was 30 years ago. Gee how time flys.
Clyde-0-Mite


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## partspig (Mar 12, 2003)

A couple more things I might add,.... to your experiments; the braid should be raised about .008 above the track surface, ,and no the braid will not interfere with your cars. On most railed tracks, the rails are higher than that. The braids should also be spaced to the guides on a T-jet, not laid right next to the slot. Secondly, buy some plastic tubing to fit over the guide pin. I believe it is 1/16th or 3/32 OD. It will fit tight on the Aurora and most other pin type guides and give you a better fit in a 1/8th inch groove, i.e., less slop. On AFX cars just use the blade guides. When applying the glue smooth it out with your FINGER, you will see the difference the first time you do it. Just wipe the stuff that accumulates on your finger farther down in the braids slot. You want a nice EVEN COAT of glue, so you do not get lumps and bumps. I ran on a Bianchi track for several years and never had a problem with not maintaining contact with the braid due to slop in the groove. This track was magnetic braid. But then again we raced t-jets on it most of the time. JMHO


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## twolff (May 11, 2007)

Paying attention as I'd like to setup a magnetic raised braid routed track if I can find someone to rout the guide slots into a sheet of MDF.


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

partspig said:


> A couple more things I might add,.... to your experiments; the braid should be raised about .008 above the track surface, ,and no the braid will not interfere with your cars. On most railed tracks, the rails are higher than that. The braids should also be spaced to the guides on a T-jet, not laid right next to the slot. Secondly, buy some plastic tubing to fit over the guide pin. I believe it is 1/16th or 3/32 OD. It will fit tight on the Aurora and most other pin type guides and give you a better fit in a 1/8th inch groove, i.e., less slop. On AFX cars just use the blade guides. When applying the glue smooth it out with your FINGER, you will see the difference the first time you do it. Just wipe the stuff that accumulates on your finger farther down in the braids slot. You want a nice EVEN COAT of glue, so you do not get lumps and bumps. I ran on a Bianchi track for several years and never had a problem with not maintaining contact with the braid due to slop in the groove. This track was magnetic braid. But then again we raced t-jets on it most of the time. JMHO


 I thought I was going to get raised braid (about 1/64"), but I just didn't get everything set up right. It's tough to be as precise as you need to be when dealing with such small tolerances.

The popsicle stick worked very well in smoothing out the glue. I don't seem to have any lumps or bumps. I might need more glue than I used, although it seems to have stuck down quite well.

One problem I encountered with the braid is that I used 3/16" braid but cut the braid reliefs with a 1/4" bit. I don't have a 3/16" bit and just wanted to give this a try. This gives a 1/16" play in the braid relief and that may be enough to cause problems in the curves. The braid reliefs are not cut right next to the slot, but are centered on the pickup shoes for a T-Jet. I think the problem with losing contact is a combination of the slop in the 1/8" slot and the extra play in the braid relief. If the guide is all the way to one side of the slot (in a curve), and the braid is on the inside edge of the inside braid relief, there's enough play to cause the pickup shoe to lose contact with the braid. I want to check on the availablility of 1/8" wide braid instead of 3/16".

Joe


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

Got a chance today to finish the third lane with magnetic braid. So now I have the three test lanes available for testing. There were some mistakes made along the way, but all in all, not a bad result.

I made some new mistakes with the magnetic braid. On the first of the two braid loops, I laid down a little too much glue and compounded that error by not using the popsicle stick to spread out the glue. This made a real mess as the glue just started oozing out the sides as I pressed the braid in with the iron. So I now had cooked glue on the board as well as on top of the braid in places. On the second loop, I laid down less glue and used the popsicle stick and got a much cleaner result. I had to spend about 90 minutes cleaning up the glue mess with a chisle and some acetone; the acetone really needs to be rubbed into the braid to even have a chance of removing the glue.

As with the non-magnetic braid, I did not get the height I wanted. For the most part, it seems the braid is flush. It may even be recessed at certain points. Even at this low height, the magnetic attraction is AT LEAST as strong as Tyco track. I can turn the board upside down and a Tyco 440-X2 stays glued to the track. This is more magnetic downforce than I wanted, but more on that later.

Had the same problem with losing contact at certain points. On the straights, if the guide pin is centered in the slot, the shoes are centered over the braid. However, in the curves you have a lot of side to side play in a 1/8" slot and combinded with the fact my braid reliefs are 1/16" larger than the braid, the shoes can go off the braid depending upon how much (or not) the car fishtails. The combination of a smaller slot and a braid relief equal in size to the braid width should make this problem disappear.

The magnetic braid makes a huge difference with the magnet cars. Whereas they will be sporatic at best with the standard braid, and slide all over with no traction, they run well on the magnetic braid (it would no doubt be better if I hadn't gotten glue all over the braid on one side).

I ran Tyco 440-X2s, HP-7s, Tomy Turbo, Tomy Super G+, Lifelike, Marchon, Micro Scalectric and AFX.

AFX Magna Traction: Ran fine and there is really little difference running on standard or magnetic braid.

Tyco: 440-X2s ran good. A Tyco HP-7 with a short wheelbase ran much better than an HP-7 with a long wheelbase. Reason? I believe it to be the amount of pickup shoe which extends below the front tires. When in the long wheelbase position, the shoes do not hang much below the tires, therefore there is very little pressure on flush braid.

Tomy: Turbo ran good, like a Tyco 440. The Super G+ looked to have a problem similiar to the HP-7 in that there is not enough pressure on flush braid.

Lifelike M Chassis: Ran great

Marchon and MicroScalextric: Ran great.

So next up will be a little more running on the braid. There has to be more experimentation before I tackle a large track. The three major things I need to try are a 1/8" braid, a 1/16" (or 3/32") slot and a 1/8" braid relief. The fourth very important component is getting the braid relief depth correct. That will take a lot of trial and error.

I want to try to get a little less downforce if that's possible. Even with the braid flush, I am getting more than I want. With a thinner braid the magnetic attraction will be less. However, when you combine the thinner braid with a raised height, I may end up with about the same downforce. If so, I can live with it. The downforce on braid is not going to cause the same wear and tear as downforce on rail. 

Joe


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## Tsooko (Oct 15, 2009)

Joe 

Some guys who run HO cars on larger scale track put styrene tubes on the guide pin. This makes the pin thicker and eliminates the back and forth " slop" in the wider guide slots. This may help with the loss of contact around the corners. I have used very tiny hollow rivets that fit over the guide pin and they seem to work ok. Pm me, I can send you a few to try.
Also there are mini routers out there that have micro height adjustment capabilities which will make it easier to set your slot depth for the braid.

Sounds like you are "getting there"! :thumbsup:

Cheers Ted

Oh yeah, Pics please.


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

Hi Ted,
I've attached three pics. A general picture of the board (including the hole), a picture showing the shoes are centered over the braid when the guide pin is centered, and a picture showing what happens in the curve when the guide pin slides to the outside of the slot and the car does not fishtail.

The braid would be centered even better if I were to rout the braid slots the same width as the braid. As it is, because the braid slot is wider than the braid, the braid is not always centered.

I'll PM you about the rivets.

Thanks...Joe


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## Tsooko (Oct 15, 2009)

Grandcheapskate said:


> Hi Ted,
> I've attached three pics. A general picture of the board (including the hole), a picture showing the shoes are centered over the braid when the guide pin is centered, and a picture showing what happens in the curve when the guide pin slides to the outside of the slot and the car does not fishtail.
> 
> The braid would be centered even better if I were to rout the braid slots the same width as the braid. As it is, because the braid slot is wider than the braid, the braid is not always centered.
> ...


I see what you mean about the braid groove. Looks like if you could get it to the outside you'd be ok. I really like experimenting before I do the real deal. Will send you some of those rivets but I think they will be a little narrow. You really need a 1/16" slot like you said.
I watch with interest. :thumbsup:
Cheers Ted


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

I had always read that you needed raised braid if you were to run hard pickups. I could never understand why, since pickup shoes extend below the front tires. Now I think I know.

The chassis I found that runs the best on the magnet braid is the Aurora Super Magnatraction (and it's offshoots). Why? These chassis have the strongest pickup shoe springs of any chassis I have; this is probably one of the reasons the shoes wear out so quickly on rail. The springs force the shoes onto the braid and provide the best contact. The downforce provided by the magnetic attraction pulls the chassis down as well, compressing the springs.

MicroScalextric with braid pickups also works great. While these chassis also run very well on the standard braid, the braid pickups do not get compressed (no magnets to pull the chassis to the braid) and the front tires don't touch the track.

Other chassis are running, but the speed is simply not there. Some will run okay while others limp around fairly slowly. For example, even using a 22v Aurora power pack, I can pretty much keep a 440x2 at full throttle. T-Jets and Aurora/JL AFX seems pretty good on both braid types.

And lots of arcing. This is especially true on the braid I over-glued. This could be because of too little pressure and excess glue on the braid. It doesn't take long for one shoe to blacken. 

So for the next test, it will have to be narrower braid and raised. I'll see what this does to the magnetic downforce as well as the electrical pickup for all chassis.

Thanks...Joe


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

As you can see from the pictures I posted, one of the problems with a 1/8" slot and normal guide pin is the amount of side to side play in the slot. This can cause the shoes to slide off the braid.

A 1/16" slot may very well solve this problem. But, if I want to stay with a 1/8" slot, the issue becomes how to keep the shoes centered on the braid in the curves when the guide pin moves to the outermost side of the slot (as pictured). The solution would be to have the braid location "shift" in the curves so that the inside braid is closer to the slot and the outside braid is a little further away.

I believe this can be done by moving the pins in the jig farther apart or into different locations. On my jig, the two pins that ride in the guide slot are very close to each other, with one of them set exactly to the distance I need between the slot and the braid; the second pin is in a trailing position and slightly farther away from the router bit. This results in a braid relief which measures the same distance from the slot around the entire lane.

As you increase the distance between the pins, the geometry changes in the curves and the braid relief should move either closer or farther away from the slot. I need to experiment to see how I can get this to work the way I need. If I can get the braid to "shift" in the curves, the 1/8" slot will not be an issue.

If anyone know how to move the pins in the jig to achieve this goal, I'd like to hear about it.

Thanks...Joe


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

I think I may have answered my own question. In looking at my jig, I see that I put the leading pin slightly ahead of the router bit. This position compounds the problem with braid position. Let me explain.

You need two pins riding in an already established slot in order to use that as a guide to cut another slot, whether that be another guide slot, rail slot or braid relief. One pin is in the leading position, the other in the trailing position. It is the position of the leading pin that will allow the braid to "shift" in the curves. There are three possible positions for the leading pin:

1. Even with the router bit. This will keep the new slot the same distance from the established slot all the way around the layout.

2. Ahead of the router bit. The leading pin will start to take the curve before the router bit. This will result in the slot "shifting" to the inside on the curves.

3. Behind the router bit. The leading pin will start to take the curve after the router bit. This will result in the slot "shifting" to the outside on the curves.

All three positions will result in correct spacing in the straights. It is position 3 that is the key here. With the pin in the trailing position, the curve cutting starts later. Therefore, the slot gets shifted outward.

So I need to change my jig to place the leading pin slightly behind the router bit. We are not talking about big movements here, but in HO we are working wth such small tolerances that shifting the pin about 1/4" could make all the difference.

Joe


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Grandcheapskate said:


> ...combinded with the fact my braid reliefs are 1/16" larger than the braid...


Couldn't you do a simple test for any performance improvement by simply moving the braids around as needed in the wider recesses, simulating what you want to try to do with the jigs? If you only want to shift them over a 64th or so, it looks like you have plenty of room to do it?

Another consideration...while you are attempting a "positive" outcome for HO cars, could moving the braid over affect the 1/43 cars in any way? Just something to think about.

If some cars are having trouble in the corners or other areas, try running them without front tires to see if it's more along the lines of a pressure issue rather than a contact patch problem. 

One of the reasons so many HO guys avoid braided tracks is that they are just so darn finicky in general...you could just be dealing with problems that are the "nature of the beast". :freak:


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

Hi Gene,
I agree that using braid for standard unmodified HO hard pickups can be a bit of a challenge; but if you get it to work, it would be the second best racing surface (the first being an all steel track). I am pretty much convinced that the problem in the curves has to do with the shoes shifting off the top of the braid due to the 1/8" slot (see photos in an earlier post). I say this because when a car stops, all it takes is a little nudge to the side (basically centering the guide pin) to get it going again. If it was a pressure problem, it should also show up in the straights, yet the straights are fine.

Now, do I have enough leeway with my 1/4" braid channel to move the 3/16" braid to the outside edge of the braid channel in the curves? Maybe. But it is tough to get the braid exactly where you want it in the larger braid channel, especially when you are laying it down with an iron. Could a rout an even larger braid channel, say 3/8", and do as you suggest. Possibly.

As we discussed privately, I need to put a jig together with a pencil in the center rather than a router bit. Then I need to trace where the bit would rout using different pin locations. I do not need a lot of shift, but I do need some. I do not think the amount of shift would be noticeable by 1/43rd cars, but it is something I have considered.

Of course, two things would probably solve this problem without modifying the cars. One is using 1/4" braid and the other is to use a 1/16" slot. The 1/4" magnetic braid is about 20% higher in price than the 3/16" braid. And the 1/16" slot rules out using 1/43 cars.

The issue of pressure is not a minor one. The pressure exerted by the shoes on a thin rail is going to be greater than that same pressure applied to a wide, flat rail (or braid). That's just basic physics. Push your finger onto a flat piece of steel and nothing happens. Put that same finger on the point of a needle with the same pressure and OUCH!!! When using wide braid (or rail), you need more of the pickup shoe over the braid as compared to a thin rail. When a certain portion of the shoe moves off the braid, you lose too much contact to continue.

And then again, it could simply be a matter of getting the right shoe bend. If one car can make it around with no problem, other chassis of the same type should also have no problem.

Thanks...Joe


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

I had a chance to do a quick test of my "shifting braid" theory. I routed a fourth lane on my test track, which came out very badly by the way, but it did give me one good curve for testing. I put together a 5 minute pin jig with multiple locations for the pins and a pencil in place of the router bit. Although I need to create a (much) better jig, I believe the jig works as I thought. The braid channel does get shifted slightly to the outside when the leading pin trails the router bit.

While routing this last guide slot, I had a lot of trouble with the jig pins jamming in the slot. This caused me to wiggle the router a lot resulting in a really bad slot. Part of the problem may be that the curve I routed is only 4" in radius; maybe too small to do easily. While the in jig method does work, the problem of the pins jamming in the slot needs to be addressed.

How do you guys who use a pin jig get the pins to ride smoothly in the previous slot?

Thanks...Joe


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## slotcarman12078 (Oct 3, 2008)

I just had a thought Joe. I have no knowledge of routing stuff or jigs for that matter, but this thought just occurred to me.  

If you are basing this jig to off set the braid route for a curve.... won't each radii curve require a different pin location to offset each lane correctly? I don't know why this just hit me. I might be completely wrong as I still have a hard time grasping this jig thing.


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## Hilltop Raceway (Feb 12, 2006)

Grandcheapskate said:


> While routing this last guide slot, I had a lot of trouble with the jig pins jamming in the slot. This caused me to wiggle the router a lot resulting in a really bad slot. Part of the problem may be that the curve I routed is only 4" in radius; maybe too small to do easily. While the in jig method does work, the problem of the pins jamming in the slot needs to be addressed.
> 
> How do you guys who use a pin jig get the pins to ride smoothly in the previous slot?
> 
> Thanks...Joe


Try using cut off T-Jet/AFX axles for your pins. Wouldn't hurt to chuck the axle up in a drill and polish it a little. The smoother the pin the less hang up have. If there was a way you could use an AFX tapered front flag guide pin, that should work great. Also the further apart the pins, the further off the routed slots will be. Your original slot needs to be smooth also, as the the router will follow all the details of the orginal slot. Sand the slot smooth with a thin credit card wrapped with sand paper. "Feeling" the router is also part of it. Sometimes you will put too much pressure on the front pin, as your pushing along, if that makes sense. A little baby powder sprinkled on the MDF, might help the router float along also. No "expert" here, just things I've noticed and still learning about...RM


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## Tsooko (Oct 15, 2009)

Hey Joe
It seems you have found the diffinative anomaly of the two pin gig. That being it has a adversion to jamming. The further apart the pins or/and the tighter the radius of the curve, the more it does so. I wiggle my pin jig to free it and get it going again, also sanding the inside of the slot helps somewhat. It does just what your's did, create a bump in the slot that you are cutting.
Some times I smooth out the bump by carefully cutting the bump out with an exacto knife but that becomes tiresome if there are a lot of wiggles.
Pins smaller than the slot help also but you have to be careful that you don't bounce the pins back and forth in the slot creating more wiggles, the same as your car does.
I know this is not a solution Just an observation

Cheers Ted


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

Hi Guys,
Thanks for those three responses. Let me get to each one seperately.

Slotcarman: I don't believe the size of the curve will matter with the jig. The basic theory is that if the leading pin trails the router bit, the router bit will swing out slightly wider than the curve it is following. This would happen on both the inside and outside braid channel equally on any size curve. Once the curve is completed, the braid channels will be evenly spaced (from the slot) down the straights; the location of the pins does not effect the geometry on the straights.

Look at it this way. My slot is 1/8" and the guide pin is less than 1/16"; let's assume 1/32". With this setup, there is a 3/32" difference between the slot and the size of the pin. If we assume the pin is in the center of the slot, that means there is 3/64" on each side of the guide pin to the edge of the slot. When you get to a curve, the car will not take the curve immediatly, but will continue to go straight for an additional 3/64" until the pin hits the outside wall of the slot and starts to turn. This will move your pickups shoes 3/64" off center of the braid. Plus, if your car does not fishtail, it want to continue to go straight while the braid underneath the car is curving, possibly moving the shoes even further off center. A movement of 3/64" on a 3/16" (12/64") braid means 25% of the contact area is lost.

Randy: Some great tips. I will put them into practice as I continue to experiment. And yes, I do understand the reference to putting too much pressure on the front pin. For my quick testing, I was using cut down nails as my pins. Something smoother will help a lot.

Ted: Well at least I am not alone. I was just wondering if something long and flexible, like a credit card, could be used instead of pins. I can't quite see how you would do it, but maybe this will spur an idea from someone.

Thanks...Joe


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

I'm gonna concur with Randy in that you want smooooooth pins, but I'd suggest using drill blanks or even the dumb end of a couple sacrificial drill bits that are the same size as your slot, you do not need to go undersized as that only allows wiggle room. 

The more attention given to detail, the better it will work:

- The holes in the baseplate need to be as square with the plate as you can possibly get them.

- The pin holes in the baseplate need to be _tight_. If you can wiggle the pins at all..._even a couple thousandths_, you will have problems. Plastic tends to expand when drilled, wood "squelches"...with that in mind, if you attach a small wooden block to your baseplate and extend your pins through it, you will have tight pins and won't need to worry about glue (which can melt plastic).

- You only need just enough exposed pin to do the job, they don't need to go to the bottom of the slot. Less surface = less friction.

- Before using the jig, make a holding fixture for one of the pins and run it through the guide slot by hand until it moves smoothly.

- Make sure your workpiece doesn't move _at all_.

If you make a good, solid jig...and your "original" slot is clean..you should have no problem using a pin jig.


Joe I'm curious...if I were standing behind your router (as if I was going to push it forward) and looking down on top of it, what side are the pins on?


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## joegri (Feb 13, 2008)

gcs/ joe all of the above replies are correct. but i did notice that you have a 4 inch radius that is a very tight turn.that could be it. is a 4 inch radius kinda like a u turn ?when the trak is up and running it might be hard to navigate the turn. its just a thought maybe make the turn longer(unless its a running out of room issue)dont give in sounds like yer very close. good luck


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

SwamperGene said:


> Joe I'm curious...if I were standing behind your router (as if I was going to push it forward) and looking down on top of it, what side are the pins on?


Well, first off I am going to tell you that I did a very quick and dirty job on my jig. It is made from 1/2" MDF and as I said, I used a couple cutoff nails for pins. I have to create a much better jig if I expect to get much better, tighter results. No doubt one made from plastic.

Gene, I am moving the router counterclockwise around my oval. I routed the first (inside) slot using a template that the router base just rode against. The remaining three guide slots were done using a pin jig riding in the previous slot.

In this case, looking down at the router from behind, the pins would be on the left of the router bit since each subsequent lane, moving outward, is cut to the right of the previous lane.

Now, when working on the braid channels, you have two choices. Obviously, you are using a different jig since the pins are spaced differently. If you keep the pins on the left, you have to cut one channel going clockwise and the other counterclockwise. If you want to cut both channels going counterclockwise, you need one jig with the pins on the left and another with the pins on the right.

My understanding is that you should always use the router to cut in only one direction (counterclockwise) as per the instructions. However, I guess because of the minimal depth of the braid channels, you can get away with going in both directions for those.

Was that what you needed to know?

Joe


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Grandcheapskate said:


> Well, first off I am going to tell you that I did a very quick and dirty job on my jig. It is made from 1/2" MDF and as I said, I used a couple cutoff nails for pins. I have to create a much better jig if I expect to get much better, tighter results. No doubt one made from plastic.
> 
> Gene, I am moving the router counterclockwise around my oval. I routed the first (inside) slot using a template that the router base just rode against. The remaining three guide slots were done using a pin jig riding in the previous slot.
> 
> ...


Yes 

See, I think that this whole routing business gets a little tricky given what we're doing here.

In my opinion, the pins should be on the right. Lemme e'splain:

Technically, when routing a slot we are "edge routing", our pin jigs being nothing more than miniature edge guides. If you look at any store-bought edge guide it mounts so that the face of the guide, which equates to the faces of our pins, is to the right of the router bit. So even though you are "moving" the router in a counter-clockwise direction relative to the surface of your board, with the pins on the left you are routing in a clockwise direction relative to the actual work....and I think this might be part of what's causing your jamming issues as you are fighting the router's torque instead of letting it work for you. In other words, at any given point along you initial guide slot, only one side of the slot is your router guide, not "the slot" as a whole. 

This is also why you _don't_ need separate jigs to cut on opposite sides of a guide slot, you simply go around the guide slot in opposite directions to cut correctly on each side using the same jig.

:freak: :freak: :freak:


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

I'll even throw in a few quick diagrams to hopefully explain it better.

Here's you current setup, the red and blue lines represent the edges of the guide slot. The blue arrows suggest we are moving counter-clockwise....but are we?










If we take away the blue line, it should be easy to see that relative to the red line, the router is moving _clockwise_ to the work:










The torque of the router is _pushing_ the front pin against the opposite slot wall and _pulling_ the trailing pin towards the "working" wall. This is what I think is causing your jamming problem, or at the very least contributing to it.










With the pins on the left, the torque of the router holds the forward pin against the working edge just like a "real" edge guide does, you just need light pressure to hold the trailing pin against the same edge.


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

Hi Gene,
I'm not grasping everything you are describing. I think I understand what you are driving at, but I don't see how you are getting there.

I just took out the manual for my Craftsman router. It states the bit revolves in a clockwise direction. It shows a diagram on how to use the router depending upon whether you have an inside or outside guide. If the guide is to the inside, the router should be worked in a clockwise direction relative to the guide. If the guide is to the outside, work counterclockwise. It also states "Whenever you are routing a groove, your travel should be in a direction which places whatever guide you are using on the right-hand side". Just what you said. 

So, let's take my initial slot. I first created an oval template screwed down to the center of the board. I then simply ran the router around this oval to create my first (inside) lane. According to the manual, the template would be considered an inside guide and I should move the router around it in a clockwise direction (I did just the opposite).

This would, as you say, probably mean that the pins should be on the right hand side since they are becoming my guide. The only way to know is to try it.

Time for a new board and more testing.

I was using Ed Bianchi's video as my guide and when he did his track, he went in a counterclockwise direction around his template. My guess is that his router (a Ryobi) rotates in the opposite direction from mine. He mentions which direction his router is turning and I'll have to pay closer attention next time I watch it.

Thanks...Joe


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

I'm sure Ed's Ryobi rotates in the same direction as your Craftsman or my Ridgid...otherwise it would require "backwards" bits.

I've never seen his video, but if he is routing against a surface-mounted template yes he should go counterclockwise, which actually goes against the Craftsman quote...



> "Whenever you are routing a groove, your travel should be in a direction which places whatever guide you are using on the right-hand side".


...since he is routing a groove. Experience is telling me that quote is not 100% true.

A router will cut no matter how you push it. Think about cutting an "S" curve with a compass guide...one half will be counterclockwise, the other clockwise. On the other hand, if you did an "S" curve with a template, you could do the whole thing counterclockwise. Bottom line is either way will work as you would still be moving left to right through the entire "S" relative to each guide type.

The whole idea of going in a specific direction dictates how well the router/guide interface will work together which translates into cleaner and easier work. In our case, I think right-mounted pins provide a "more correct" interface in terms of router torque.


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

Gene,
Let me see if I've got this straight. If I have a board mounted template, let's say an oval screwed down to the middle of the board, you believe I should go around it in a counterclockwise direction (as Ed does), working left to right. This would put the guide (template) to the left of the router bit; opposite to the instructions in the manual.

Yet when I use the pins as my guide, they should be to the right of the bit?

If this is true, then there is a problem. Using the template above, the first slot cut is the innermost lane. Let's assume we did this by going counterclockwise (template to the left of the bit). Now, to do the next lane with the pin jig (pins on the right of the bit), I would need to go in a clockwise direction. This seems wrong.

I can understand keeping the pins to the right of the router bit as long as the statement in the Craftsman manual is true - keep the guide to the right of the router. This would mean keeping both the template and the jig pins to the right.

What am I missing?

P.S. Just an FYI, Ed cuts his guide slots not by using a pin jig, but by using different radius base plates on his router. He routs all the guide slots using the template as his guide, switching to a larger radius base plate for each lane, each base plate 1 3/4" larger than the previous plate. So for a four lane track, he has four base plates. He only uses a pig jig for the rail/braid channel. 

Thanks...Joe


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Joe maybe it would make it easier if you forget the concept of routing "counterclockwise" and instead think of it as routing "left to right" as you would the edge of a board.

So, with left-mounted pins we go around the oval in a counterclockwise direction like so:










Now hopefully this will clear up what I'm sayin'. Let's omit the oval and imagine you are cutting a slot in a board, using your pin jig as an edge guide. Are we still routing left to right?










Technically, since there are two edges, you could sort of correct the issue by using the opposite wall of the slot as "the guide":










This "should" work ok so long as you're paying attention to which side of the slot you are routing against. But...I think that with the third picture the torque on the trailing pin could be causing the wiggle and jamming problems, moreso than routing with the pins on the right.


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

SwamperGene said:


> Let's omit the oval and imagine you are cutting a slot in a board, using your pin jig as an edge guide. Are we still routing left to right?


Gene,
My manual makes no reference to routing left to right. It simply states that the guide should always be on the right hand side. So, according to my manual, the router in your diagram is going in the wrong direction.

The manual wants you to always be thrusting against the guide. Since the router will tend to kick counterclockwise with a clockwise motor, your thrust must be to the right (if standing behind the router). When standing behind and pushing the router, turning left is counterclockwise and turning right is clockwise.

The only way to know is to actually do it as the manual says.

On the positive side, I made another simple pencil jig using a 3/32" nail cut down to two short pins and polished up. I then made multiple possible locations for the pins. What I confirned (again) is that I was correct in that if the leading pin trails the router bit, I get a "braid shift" outward. This puts the outer braid further from the slot in the curves, and the inner braid closer to the slot.

I also discovered that the further apart the pins in the jig (within reason), the more stable the jig becomes. I made the multiple jig pin holes 1/4" apart. So I can put the pins as close as 1/4" apart, to about 1" apart (I only made a small jig). You don't want them too far apart because that will flatten out the curves. With the pins only 1/4" apart, the jig wobbles in the slot. If I go out to 1", the jig becomes more stable.

The jig is also sliding around the slot easier. I believe this is because I have a more polished pair of pins.

I just have to experiment some more next week.

Thanks...Joe


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Grandcheapskate said:


> Gene,
> My manual makes no reference to routing left to right. It simply states that the guide should always be on the right hand side. So, according to my manual, the router in your diagram is going in the wrong direction.


Yes it is, and that was my point...my diagram is demonstrating your jig with the pins on the left.

The reason I say to throw out the concept of "counterclockwise" routing and instead refer to it as left to right is this...what happens when you move away from an oval? 










You can't move through the whole _track_ "counterclockwise", but you can _route_ left to right along the entire layout, even if you are moving your arms right to left.

:freak:

Good to hear that the jig is working smoother. :thumbsup:


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

SwamperGene said:


> You can't move through the whole _track_ "counterclockwise", but you can _route_ left to right along the entire layout, even if you are moving your arms right to left.


 Very true.

In your track diagram, let's assume I do the innermost lane using a template as my guide. The template I design will be inside the innermost lane (on the front straight), therefore I would need to start by going right to left (according to my manual) keeping the template on my right hand side. Every turn that is clockwise would find the template on the inside of the curve while every turn that is counterclockwise would find the template on the outside of the curve. The template would always be on my right hand side.

So, bottom line is you are correct in that I need to have the pins to the right of the router bit. At least that is the working theory at the moment.

Thanks...Joe


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Grandcheapskate said:


> In your track diagram, let's assume I do the innermost lane using a template as my guide. The template I design will be inside the innermost lane (on the front straight), therefore I would need to start by going right to left (according to my manual) keeping the template on my right hand side. Every turn that is clockwise would find the template on the inside of the curve while every turn that is counterclockwise would find the template on the outside of the curve. The template would always be on my right hand side.


Nooooo that would be a mistake. For edge routing yes on the right for guide or template routing on the left. If I were to do this track with a template:










here's how it would go:










If it was a "negative" or "outside" template, everything would be reversed.

When cutting a groove your router wants to pull upwards:










You want to use your guide to your advantage, ie the router is naturally drawn towards the guide. _Use the right hand rule_...palm down, thumb and index finger extended. Finger is direction of travel, thumb points to edge of guide/template or workpiece if using an edge guide (or in our case a pin jig).


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

Hi Gene,

First of all, thanks for taking the time to help me with this.

Wow, am I getting confused.

The way you show it, and the way Ed Bianchi does it on his video, are the same; the template is on the left. (Remember, Ed uses the template to do all four lanes). Yet my manual shows the guide to always be on the right.

You mention "guide on the right", "template on the left". Aren't they the same? Isn't a template just an edge guide? Or is an edge guide an extension attached to the router base? As far as I can tell, my router has no provision for any attachments and no attachment is shown in the manual.

And I understand the right hand rule, yet that seems to go against the directions in my manual.

So if you were routing the above track using your template, you would keep the template on your left. That's clear to see.

Now, would you be routing the closest lane, or the furthest lane? If you used the template to rout the closest lane (the inside lane on the front straight), then when using the pin jig to do lanes 2-4, you would keep the pins on the right of the router bit which would mean using the router in the opposite direction (go right to left down the front straight). Do I have that right?

Thanks...Joe


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Glad to try to help Joe 




Grandcheapskate said:


> The way you show it, and the way Ed Bianchi does it on his video, are the same; the template is on the left. (Remember, Ed uses the template to do all four lanes). Yet my manual shows the guide to always be on the right.


So does mine, actually. 

A router is one of the most creative handheld woodworking tools made. Product manuals, unfortunately, generally offer only the most basic of instructions. In the manufacturers' defense though, to accurately cover the wide variety of techniques would require a dedicated and very large book.

For _our_ purposes, I don't agree at all with what the manual says. In fact my manual contradicts itself as it too tells you to route in a direction that pulls the router against the work, which my setup does...in contrast to what the manual states. In my illustration, the router pulls itself against the guide resulting in a "true" cut regardless of the thrust being applied against the guide. When routing according to the manual's illustration, you are literally inviting errors with every single step you take...as your stance and arm pressure varies you will tend to alter the pressure you are keeping against the guide. If you so much as sneeze you can _easily_ screw up a straight cut when routing with an above-surface guide or template positioned to the right of the router base.

If you Google videos on routing, you will find that pretty much every single time you see someone using an above-the-surface guide or template, they are routing with the left edge of the baseplate against the guide and moving from left to right. Again...backwards to what it seems most router manuals recommend. Obviously the manual writers are missing something that experienced woodworkers are doing. :freak:



> You mention "guide on the right", "template on the left". Aren't they the same? Isn't a template just an edge guide? Or is an edge guide an extension attached to the router base? As far as I can tell, my router has no provision for any attachments and no attachment is shown in the manual.


Guide/Template = Anything used above the work surface that you would "rub" the router's baseplate against.

Edge Guide = An extension or extrusion that attaches to the router and rides along any edge below the surface of the workpiece. A pin jig is an edge guide.



> And I understand the right hand rule, yet that seems to go against the directions in my manual.


Yup, but as hinted to above this is a rule devised by Crafts_men_, not Crafts_man_. 



> Now, would you be routing the closest lane, or the furthest lane? If you used the template to rout the closest lane (the inside lane on the front straight), then when using the pin jig to do lanes 2-4, you would keep the pins on the right of the router bit which would mean using the router in the opposite direction (go right to left down the front straight). Do I have that right?


Yes. Lemme 'splain. If I did the inside lane first, I'd use my pin jig and go right to left down the front straight. If I did the outside lane first, I'd go left to right using the same jig.

To sum it up, Joe, I glanced at my manual very briefly when I got my router. Then I used test pieces to learn what works for our application. I purposely tried routing with a guide to the right and got a terrible line. It was then that I realised how to make the router and guide(s) work together to my advantage. Since then, with only two very minor "glitches" in over 1000 linear feet, I'd say something was learned. Whether or not it's conventional or "proper" is irrelevent to me, it's the results that count.


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

SwamperGene said:


> For _our_ purposes, I don't agree at all with what the manual says. In fact my manual contradicts itself as it too tells you to route in a direction that pulls the router against the work, which my setup does...in contrast to what the manual states. In my illustration, the router pulls itself against the guide resulting in a "true" cut regardless of the thrust being applied against the guide. When routing according to the manual's illustration, you are literally inviting errors with every single step you take...as your stance and arm pressure varies you will tend to alter the pressure you are keeping against the guide. If you so much as sneeze you can _easily_ screw up a straight cut when routing with an above-surface guide or template positioned to the right of the router base.
> 
> If you Google videos on routing, you will find that pretty much every single time you see someone using an above-the-surface guide or template, they are routing with the left edge of the baseplate against the guide and moving from left to right. Again...backwards to what it seems most router manuals recommend. Obviously the manual writers are missing something that experienced woodworkers are doing.
> 
> ...



Hey Gene,
Look to the east. See that bright light over northern New Jersey? You finally got through to me and the light bulb just went off. In reading the manual, it did not make sense to me. My gut was telling me that I want the router to be thrusting against my template via it's "kickback" rather than me fighting the natural desire of the router to move away from a right hand template. Now the veil of confusion has been lifted.



SwamperGene said:


> Yes. Lemme 'splain. If I did the inside lane first, I'd use my pin jig and go right to left down the front straight. If I did the outside lane first, I'd go left to right using the same jig.
> 
> To sum it up, Joe, I glanced at my manual very briefly when I got my router. Then I used test pieces to learn what works for our application. I purposely tried routing with a guide to the right and got a terrible line. It was then that I realised how to make the router and guide(s) work together to my advantage. Since then, with only two very minor "glitches" in over 1000 linear feet, I'd say something was learned. Whether or not it's conventional or "proper" is irrelevent to me, it's the results that count.


Yes!!! We are now on the same page!

Okay...we are ready to try this again. Let the routing begin!!!!

Thanks...Joe


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Grandcheapskate said:


> Hey Gene,
> Look to the east. See that bright light over northern New Jersey? You finally got through to me and the light bulb just went off. In reading the manual, it did not make sense to me. My gut was telling me that I want the router to be thrusting against my template via it's "kickback" rather than me fighting the natural desire of the router to move away from a right hand template. Now the veil of confusion has been lifted.
> 
> 
> ...


lol keep it shining bright


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## Tsooko (Oct 15, 2009)

Here are some pics. The wandering router slots were caused by the bit pulling the router off the desired line by having the router on the wrong side of the template for the direction it was being moved then? so in the third pic with the base plate, the direction of the router movement must be upwards to keep the guide against the template, in this case , the white piece of styrene in the slot is the template, yes?

Ted


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Tsooko said:


> Here are some pics. The wandering router slots were caused by the bit pulling the router off the desired line by having the router on the wrong side of the template for the direction it was being moved then? so in the third pic with the base plate, the direction of the router movement must be upwards to keep the guide against the template, in this case , the white piece of styrene in the slot is the template, yes?
> 
> Ted


Yes Ted, in the direction of the arrow. It will keep your baseplate guide against the strip.











Also, make sure you do a test run on a straight, rotating the router around the guide "bushing" as you move along. Then check the spacing at various points along your cut when done...this will make sure your bit is centered in that little hole.


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## Tsooko (Oct 15, 2009)

Northern lights go off here too Gene! You 'da man!:dude:
Did some short pieces here and it works good, going in the right direction with the template on the correct side.
Hard to believe that would make such a difference.

That little base plate? Perfect!!!

Cheers Ted


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Tsooko said:


> Northern lights go off here too Gene! You 'da man!:dude:
> Did some short pieces here and it works good, going in the right direction with the template on the correct side.
> Hard to believe that would make such a difference.
> 
> ...


Cool!

It's all in the techniques, and right or wrong some things simply work better for our applications. Just always keep safety in mind...and plenty of scraps on hand to test anything "different" first.


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

Got a chance today to actually try the "shifting braid" pin jig. I modified my existing jig to (1) place the pins on the right hand side of the router and (2) create multiple locations for the pins.

Of course, I again did a very rough/quick test. I tried using the joiners from Aurora L&J track as my pins; they are too loose for a 1/8" slot and there was too much wiggle. While the pins did not jam, the resulting braid channels are not consistant. I need to use a slightly larger pin.

However, in testing out various locations for the leading pin, I confirmed once again that I can get the braid to shift outward in the curves (I could also get it to shift inward, but that is useless).

I put pin locations at 1/4" intervals along a line 5/16" from the router bit center line. The trailing pin was placed back about 2" from the router bit. The leading pin was tested at 1/2", 3/4" and 1" back from (trailing) the router bit. It was obvious that changing the leading pin location had an impact on the curves.

It turns out that the 3/4" and 1" locations moved the braid channel too far out on the curves. The 1/2" location seemed to work the best. I have not laid down any braid (I don't know if I have enough for another lane), but I should have enough to test the entry and exit from one curve.

If this works as well I believe it might, I will make a much better jig.

Joe


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Grandcheapskate said:


> Got a chance today to actually try the "shifting braid" pin jig. I modified my existing jig to (1) place the pins on the right hand side of the router and (2) create multiple locations for the pins.
> 
> Of course, I again did a very rough/quick test. I tried using the joiners from Aurora L&J track as my pins; they are too loose for a 1/8" slot and there was too much wiggle. While the pins did not jam, the resulting braid channels are not consistant. I need to use a slightly larger pin.
> 
> ...


Joe I'd think you could pick up a 2-pack of 1/8 drill bits pretty cheap and whack the dumb ends off with a dremel to use as perfectly sized pins.


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## Tsooko (Oct 15, 2009)

SwamperGene said:


> Joe I'd think you could pick up a 2-pack of 1/8 drill bits pretty cheap and whack the dumb ends off with a dremel to use as perfectly sized pins.


That's what I use. You beat me to it 

Ted


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Tsooko said:


> That's what I use. You beat me to it
> 
> Ted




Just adding Joe that contrary to what you'd think you do not want a loose fit, it only leaves room for error. With a third bit, make one of these handy little slot cleaning/honing tools and run it through the guide slot prior to using the pin jig. When it moves freely (not "loosely") all the way 'round, you're good to go.










This stupid little thing has been an invaluable tool in the arsenal.


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

SwamperGene said:


> Joe I'd think you could pick up a 2-pack of 1/8 drill bits pretty cheap and whack the dumb ends off with a dremel to use as perfectly sized pins.


Hi Gene,

"Cheap" you say? My ears just perked up!!!! LOL

I tried taking the dumb end of a 1/8" drill bit and placing it into the slot. It doesn't go in easily - I need to apply pressure to push it down. And once in the slot, I can't move it easily at all. The 7/64" bit went in easy, appears to have very little wiggle and moves freely around the slot. That 1/64" can't be that big a deal - could it???

There are a lot of drill bits here and I know Harbor Freight has 8-10 packs of small drills for something around $2-$3. Even a grandcheapskate can afford that.

Cleaning out the slot is a must. I will need to make a slot clearing tool like the one you show.

As I said, this was a quick and dirty test, which will greatly effect my results. I still have not purchased a 3/16" router bit to match the width of the braid (I used the 1/4" bit). I wanted to try this method and didn't want to wait to order the smaller bit(s). It's a shame the only way to find the smaller router bits appears to be online - unless I find a woodworking shop nearby.

Thanks...Joe


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Grandcheapskate said:


> Hi Gene,
> 
> "Cheap" you say? My ears just perked up!!!! LOL
> 
> ...


It's possible that the tops of the cuts are tight. In a test spot, try lightly sanding the top of the groove with the corner of a foam sanding block like so:










Then try the bit again. 

The difference could be the bit quality though. If you're using a $5 bit the tolerances could very well be off, my first bit was a $3 Vermont American and it wouldn't cut a true 1/16" slot. If you used a $15 Freud and had this problem, they'd take the bit back...a 1/8" cut should be 1/8" wide.

And unfortunately yes, in our little world 1/64 is a _lot_ of wiggle room, if your router shifted from one side of the slot to the other, it would create a visible bump in the slot.


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

SwamperGene said:


> It's possible that the tops of the cuts are tight. In a test spot, try lightly sanding the top of the groove with the corner of a foam sanding block like so:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Gene,

The drill end of the 1/8" drill will go in the slot - it's snug, but can be moved around the slot. It's possible that after all these years (these are my dad's drills and have been used since I was a kid) the drill end has worn down a bit. Or could it be that the dumb end of a drill bit is just a tad wider than the drill end? That actually makes sense to me. How often have you drilled a hole and found the dumb end to be a much tighter fit than the drill end?

The actual router bit, a Viper, does fit nicely in the slot and can be moved. The router bit will not fit in the hole for a 7/64" drill bit, so if it is "off", it is off by less than 1/64".

I gotta check this out with my dad. He worked in a machine shop his whole life.

Joe


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## Hilltop Raceway (Feb 12, 2006)

This thread has been worth following just for the pics and drawings, not to mention the valuable information!!! Thanks...RM


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## slotnewbie69 (Dec 3, 2008)

i second that.there sure is a wealth of info here.swamper,love the little diagrams you do!very helpful,as i am also playing around with the thought of doing a routed track.despite the pain of building it,the hassle free maintence later seems well worth it.i am growing very tired of having to spend half an hour checking and rechecking track connections and cleaning the rails all the time.i love to be a fly on the wall for these threads.


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Always glad to contribute, guys


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

I haven't forgotten about this project, but it's been a busy couple of months. Between family obligations and the oppresive heat this summer (I' not working outside unless I have to!), I haven't done any experimenting in the past two months or so.

However, in the last day or so, I have figured out my next move. Because my problems are in the curves, I need a way to be able to change the curves while leaving the straights intact. Therefore, I believe I will get two 2x4 pieces of MDF and cut one in half to make two 2x2 pieces. I will then rout straights into the 2x4 piece and 180 degree curves into each 2x2 piece. Then I will put the three pieces together to form a 2x8 oval (2x2, 2x4, 2x2).

I will braid the straights and curves seperately, connecting them under the board. Then, if I do not get the "shifting braid" correct on the curves, I can simply remove the curve sections (the two 2x2 pieces) and rout new curves, attaching them to the straights.

This should cut down on the expense of wasting braid as I would only have to rebraid the curves. Once I get the pin jig set up correctly, I can try a larger track.

I will probably go with this modular design even when I do a larger track. It's easy to picture how I could expand even the simple oval described above. By routing a second 2x4 piece with straights, I could increase the oval size to 2x12.

Thanks...Joe


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

Well, I have picked up a couple of the pieces of the puzzle. I bought the 3/16" router bit (2 of them) to cut the braid channel to the correct width. I also picked up two sheets of 2x4 1/4" MDF. I would have liked to have gotten 3/8" MDF but there was none in either Lowe's or Home Depot. In fact the Lowe's didn't have any 2x4 MDF. The 1/4" MDF is going to get real fragile once I rout a slot so I'll have to handle it carefully. I'll probably put another board under it for support.

In the meantime I have been testing my existing 2x4 oval. I am trying to learn all that I can from that first test track. Some of the conclusions I am coming to are very interesting.

There are cars of every type that run really good on the braid. That leads me to conclude that all types of chassis I have are capable of running very well on braid if the pickup shoe system (springs and shoes) are set up correctly.

The difference between two cars of the same chassis type can be dramatic; but what is more surprising is that there is very little difference between those same two chassis if you run them on rail. This makes sense as you do not need (or want?) as much downward shoe pressure on rail as opposed to braid. I believe those cars with strong pickup shoe pressure run much better on braid than those with less pressure. The other big factor is the amount of shoe surface that contacts the braid.

This gets back to basic physics; the amount of force is inversely proportional to the surface area. As the surface area decreases, the force increases. So on rail you can get away with less downward pressure, but on a wider surface such as braid, you need more pressure and/or more surface contact. Chassis that have shoes with a lot of surface contact on the braid are the cars that seem to run best.

Of course magnet cars supply enough downforce to pull the shoes down as much as necessary; it is the amount of surface area on the braid that determines how well the chassis performs. If you can get enough shoe surface on the braid, the car will fly. If you don't get enough, the car will crawl or not go at all.

So, I conclude that all the chassis types I run can be used on braid at the height I tried to achieve on my test track. Some will need to have the shoes tweaked to run good on braid, but that can be done. Right now, I want the braided track for use with magnet cars as I believe braid will dramatically lower the wear and tear on these types of chassis (pickups should last forever).

If T-jets and AFX are better on rail, I can live with that as shoes don't wear out nearly as quickly. And I've got plenty of plastic track.

But won't it be nice to run an Aurora Super Mag and not wear out the shoes in about 10 laps?

Thanks...Joe


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

I finally got to spend a little time on the next routing project. The plan is to create a simple oval by routing 4' straights across a 2'x4' board and then attach a 2'x1' board on each end which contains the 180 degree curves.

Got all the boards cut and routed the straights for one lane (which was two slots 8" apart). That was easy.

I then took each 2'x1' board and routed a 180 degree 4" radius (8" diameter) curve. I started the curves 2" into the 2'x1' boards so that the curves do not start right at the edge of the board. This 2" area is used to rout a straight connecting the 4' straights to the beginning/end of the curves. In this way, when the curve is not exactly as wide as the two 4' straights (there's no way to get this exactly spot on), I can use that 2" to make the connection. They'll only be off by 1/16" to 1/8" of an inch off, so it would not be noticable.

The only mistake I made was in doing the small 2" straights - up to then everything seems perfect. But the beautiful aspect of doing it this way is that I can simply redo just the curve sections if they are really bad. And since I only needed a 2'x1' board on each end, a 2'x4' board gives me four pieces; plus using the opposite side.

I did not yet do the braid channels. I can see a potential problem. Since the slots run to the end of the boards, there's no way to get two pins in the slot to get started (remember that the pins trail the router bit). So I believe that in order to rout the braid channels, I would have to assemble the boards and then rout the braid channels around the complete oval.

Joe


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

I was able to rout the braid channels the other day. I needed to assemble all three pieces, temporarily, by clamping them down to the table so I could have a continuous slot. The straights took about a minute.

I tried out my "shifting" braid theory on the curves and it worked as I expected. I placed the first pin 1/4" behind the router bit and the braid channel clearly swings outward on the curve. It may have shifted too much, but I won't know until I lay out the braid. If it did shift too much, I can maybe try putting the leading pin 1/8" behind the bit, although it is difficult to get that close to the router bit since you need to have a clearance hole in your base plate for the bit.

I am ordering a small amount of 1/8" braid to try. I currently have 3/16" braid. If the 1/8" braid works, it will provide a cost savings with no downside. However, as the braid gets narrower, you need more accurate measurements and the tolerances need to be tighter.

I routed the braid channels to 3/16" and it looks like the 3/16" braid is just a hair wider. I'll have to see what happens when I glue it down with the iron. Will one edge stick up out of the channel? We'll see.

Joe


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

So here's where I am as of today.

I picked up a 3' 1/8" steel rod at the hardware store. This will give me all the 1/8" pins I will ever need to ride in the slot for my jigs. I have 30' of 1/8" braid on the way.

My original jig cut the braid channels too far apart. I can see that even without laying in the braid. So I redid the jig and was able to get the pin 1/4" from the bit center. This gives me approximatly 1/2"-9/16" from center to center on the braid channels. My measurements show Tyco track as having the rails 9/16" apart. Trying to get any better than what I 've just achieved is nearly impossible.

First problem is one of the two pins needs to be near the router bit. Since my router uses 1/4" shanks, I need to have a clearance hole at least 1/4" in size (I think I used 5/16"). So you can see the problem - if the clearance hole is 5/16" (5/32" radius) and you have to center a 4/32" (2/32" radius) pin 8/32" away from the router bit, you only have 1/32" of material left (IF you are spot on with your measurements). I offset the pin a little (having it trail the router bit causes the curves to "shift" outward) which allowed me to insert the pin as close to the router bit as possible and still leave enough material between the pin and bit.

Obviously, a router using a 1/8" shank allows a little more wiggle room.

I used the new jig in the existing lane I created and it moved the braid channels in close enough so that they now have the proper spacing.

But I do have a question. How can I accurately measure the depth of my braid channel. The braid is .025" (1/40") thick. I figure if I make the channel .015" (1/64") deep, that leaves the braid raised about .010", which I'm assuming is a good height. But how do I measure such small amounts?

Thanks...Joe


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Joe you could try flat feeler gauges laying beside the braid,or carefully use the inside measurement capability of a set of dial calipers,i think that's generally how most guys do it:thumbsup:


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Rick I tried the caliper method til I realize how innacurated it is for such small measurements. If you tilt it back or forth even a hair between measurements, it will be way off when speaking in terms of .001". The best way is to use a "go/no-go" setup. Here's a simple one:

Go to any local music store and ask for .015 and .016 guitar strings. Cut them into short pieces a few inches long, there's your "feeler gauges". Then stand a thick flat feeler gauge on it's edge across the braid channel and try to slide the "string gauge" under it. If the .015 hits, you're not deep enough. If the .016 _fits_ under it, you're too deep. If the .016 _hits_ but the .015 _fits_, you're right on the money.

:thumbsup:


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Damn you amaze me Gene,that's a hell'va idea,i got lots of 0.015" piano wire laying around,have to get some geeetar strings in those sizes though


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Just had a thought.
Ted can you machine aluminium on your router.
I was thinking of building 2 small blocks of aluminium,with a drillblank set across the top of them.One block sits on one side of the rail,the other on the opposite side of the rail,with the drillblank across the top of them.Make it so that the drillblank is roughly 0.010 or more taller then the rail,then just slide the blocks along the rail top,and use a flat feeler gauge between it and the top of the rail to check rail height.
Run enough interest past Mark,and he might build something for the general masses:thumbsup:


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Damn you Gene,you got the wheels turning this morning:tongue: .
Hey Ted,you've been building depth stop gauges outta acrylic for our routers,how about doing a rail checking tool outta acrylic,using the idea above.
They'd be the same principal as your depth stop gauges,just a little taller and wider:wave:
If anybody has another idea,don't be scared to post it,i'm only kicking ideas around based off Gene's idea,so any and all imput is appreciated
Rick


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

Gene and Hornet,

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll see about getting some guitar strings.

I'm sure I get pretty close to the depth I want, but being off by even 1/128" is a high error percentage. It might not be so important if you were going to set up the router to do all the braid channels at once and never do it again. But if you ever wanted to make another track, or add onto the existing layout, getting the braid to be a consistant height becomes real important. Otherwise, each section done at different times would be very inconsistant.

Hornet - when I look at the braid, or even run my finger across it, it's hard to tell whether it's flush, inset or raised. I don't think putting a feeler gauge next to it would help.

One quick tool I saw for getting rail to be consistant (at least, not too high) was to glue two feeler gauges (of the desired rail height) onto a file, spaced far enough apart so that at least both rails of a lane are between them. Then run the file along the track surface. All the spots where the rail is too high will get filed down.

Thanks...Joe


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

First the winter lasted forever and I couldn't get outside to rout, then the temperature soared into the high 90s and it's too hot to stay outside. Whatever happened to temps in the 60s and 70s?

I did get a chance to experiment a little and made more mistakes. But I'm learning - I think.

I took a piece of wood and inserted a piece of the 1/8" rod. I use this to run through the slot to clean it up before using the jig (with the same size 1/8" pins) that rides in the slot to cut either the braid channels or the next lane. Doing this reduced the "jamming" of the pins in the slot when I used the jig. Leason learned. 

The first mistake made everything almost useless. In order to experiment and keep the cost down, I used 1/4" MDF. That in itself isn't the problem, although you might not want to use this for a real track. The problem was I routed it using two saw horses. The board is simply not sturdy enough to support itself across saw horses and therefore it must have bowed as I was routing, giving me very uneven depth in the slot and braid channels. No more saw horses from now on, I am using a folding table.

I went ahead anyway and glued in some 1/8" braid for one 4' straight and one curve. I made a little mess with the glue as I used too much and it oozed onto the top of the braid. Needed a hot iron to get it to stay put. Cleaned it up as best I could and the cars do actually work, but I'll have to start over again.

The other issue is the method I'm using. I rout a 4' straight into the 2x4 board. The problem is that if you rout from one end of the board to the other, you don't have both pins in the slot at the ends of the board. When you start, you only have one pin in the slot and don't get the second pin in the slot until you've routed a little (the distance between the pins). At the other end, one pin leaves the slot (hopefully) just as you're done routing. I think there are ways around this problem. 

The one good thing is it looked like I got the correct spacing for the braid channels in the straights and on the curves. So at least my jigs look to be set up correctly.

I think I have enough room to rout two more straights on the 2x4 board, and I have two extra 2x1 pieces to make two new 180 degree curves for each end. I just need more braid.

Joe


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## tjd241 (Jan 25, 2004)

No Pics?


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## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

OK, haven't read the entire or even most of this thread. and never routed a track. but have laid down miles of braid on many drag tracks and helped with them roundy tracks. all I ever used was contact cement/glue and followed the directions. never had any braid lift.


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

alpink said:


> OK, haven't read the entire or even most of this thread. and never routed a track. but have laid down miles of braid on many drag tracks and helped with them roundy tracks. all I ever used was contact cement/glue and followed the directions. never had any braid lift.


Al,
You didn't have to use an iron? Did you have to wait for the glue to get tacky before laying the braid? If I lay the braid down right after laying down the glue, the braid comes right up - nothing holds it in place.

Thanks...Joe


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## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

Joe, follow the directions on the can of contact cement. you apply a thin coating to each surface, the braid and the routed depression next to the slot. when the correct amount of time has passed, you firmly apply the braid to the track. it allows you a little time to make fine adjustments before it sets up, and NAPTHA or Colemen fuel or lighter fluid can be used to remove the glue if necessary. I buy the contact cement in bulk at Home Depot or Loews or similar stores to get a good price. someone makes a nice roller that is premade to the braid width and has a little center piece for the slot to keep it centered. I have never bought one, so i can not say where to get them, but they make smoothing the braid down and getting a good press easier. check 1/24 tracks and suppliers for that tool.


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

Thanks Al.....

Took a little time today and laid the braid onto one of the 2x1 curve sections as an experiment. This time I used a little less glue, spread it out evenly, and let it sit for a couple minutes to get tacky. I didn't put glue on the underside of the braid, although I will do this when I start over again. When I laid the braid onto the tacky glue, it kinda stayed put - at least enough for me to run a paint scrapper over the top to smooth it down. I then took the hot iron and went over it. It came out a lot better than before with no excess glue oozing out the side.

Unfortunately because of the uneven depth of the braid channel, the braid height is way off.

However, the space between the braid seems to be close enough that a car stays in contact with the braid through the curve. My jig seems to still be off by 1/8"; I measure the braid to braid distance as 1/2" and the distance between pickup shoes on a Lifelike as 5/8". I did not get a lot of "braid shift" on the curves, so I'll address this as well when I redo the jig.

Joe


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## neophytte (Sep 14, 2006)

Hi Joe,

I built my guide jig like this, using 2 1/8" nails as the guides:










http://routedtrack.hobby-site.com/

Cheers

Richard


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## Grandcheapskate (Jan 5, 2006)

Hi Richard,
I've visited your website a number of times and followed the threads you've had on here in the past. But thanks again for posting that picture of your jig.

I guess one question I have is how to make the rail/braid jig accurate. While the jig to do the lanes can be off a little from your desired width (no one will notice if you wanted 2" lane spacing and got 2 1/32" spacing), the jig for the rail/braid must be really accurate.

I've only made my test jigs out of MDF, although plastic seems a much better choice. One of the main problems I'm having is that once you make a clearance hole for the bit on your replacement base plate, there's not a lot of meat left on the base plate between the clearence hole and where you need to put the pin guides which ride in the slot.

If using router bits with a 1/4" shank, your clearance hole must be greater than 1/4", probably closer to 3/8" or 1/2". Now the math gets a little hard to follow.

If it's a 1/2" hole, that's a 1/4" radius. If using a 1/8" slot, you need to center a 1/8" pin at a distance of 5/16" away (half of the 5/8" center-to-center width of Lifelike pickup shoes, for example) from the center of the router bit. So, if the clearance hole radius is 4/16" (1/4") and the pin guide radius is 1/16", those two holes meet, making a kind of uneven figure 8 in your base plate.

Obviously a lot of guys have done this successfully. I've done it on my base plate by having the leading pin trail the router bit - hence, the braid shift. But I know I'm missing some important point.

Thanks...Joe


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