# Officially Kancelled Klingon?



## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

I was just at Hiway Hobby and scifiguy tells me he got an order form from RC2 that listed "1/350 Klingon - CANCELLED" and "New Seaview - CANCELLED."



And that's all I know about it.
Nice to know PL actually WAS considering a new, larger Seaview. Too bad RC2 screwed us out of it.


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## JamesDFarrow (Sep 18, 1999)

I guess that's the end of the Star Trek kits line. Well, except that they might re-pop some of the old Ertl ones.

To bad about the Seaview. Would have been nice.

So, looks like cars, more cars, and more cars..... Oh well.
I guess that's what sells.

James


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## Dr. Brad (Oct 5, 1999)

I've been wondering about these. Sort of thought the larger Seaview wasn't going to happen, and thought the Klingon was doubtful. Now we know. Too bad about both of these a larger Seaview would have been great. And I would have liked an accurate K'Tinga. That would've made a great display model.

Not that I care that much, but do we still get that 1/1000 NX-01? Any mention of that?

Brad.


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

D%[email protected] it all anyway !!!


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## Mike Warshaw (Feb 23, 1999)

John,

Yes, it's too bad that the work on the K'tinga took so long. We're lucky the refit was done just under the wire; who knows how much earlier it was planned to be out? Maybe they both would have been out long ago, or would never have seen the light of day, if Dave hadn't been pushing and pushing the work so hard and fast. It would be so interesting to hear from him sometime the story of how that all happened, if he wasn't so diplomatic (well, you are, Metz). There are so many rumors floating around, it's hard to know who to blame in the end. It just seems too convenient to lay it on the big company when there may have been so much avoidable delay before the decision even got into their hands. It's just too bad.


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## CaptFrank (Jan 29, 2005)

A 1/350th Klingon cancelled?!!  
NO!!!  

Well, since I didn't know about it in the first place, it's not such a great loss.
I would have loved it, though.

Just wait until the Refit gets cancelled! Then we'll see some agony.


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

There goes our chance to see a 1/350 TOS Enterprise. I guess I will have to be happy? with the cutaway 22 inch.


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## dreamer (Jan 1, 1970)

A company relies on it's reputation with it's customers as much as with it's product. RC2 has made public statements about wanting to keep the goodwill and patronage of PL's customer base as well as claming that they wanted the company for it's market niche. So far all we've seen is them canceling the very items/lines PL has built it's reputation on while offering nothing to replace them with.

I think it's understood by those in business that such a move is going to reflect directly on the company, and it's up to them how to deal with it. I don't think it's unfair in the least as an ardent supporter of Polar Lights to ask for some substantial sign from RC2 that our goodwill as customers is not taken for granted - much more so after their many public announcements stating that they bought PL because they valued the market PL catered to and would continue to serve it. Those public mission statements from RC2 run counter to their performance thus far. A statement on this BB - their BB - would be appreciated. A solid re-assurance of their commitment to new, better products such as we have come to rely on from PL would be better.

Cancelling the 1/350 K'Tinga and the improved Seaview takes a mighty huge bite out of that goodwill from this long-time customer, combined with the abandonment of the figure kits. Benefit of the doubt can take only so much stretching before it snaps completely.

Understand, I'm not insisting on specific kits...but I _am_ asking what we have to look forward to, if anything. _Is there a reason we should remain customers?_

RC2, please, would you like to comment? You made the public reassurances to us, the customer base you claimed to value, and we would like to believe it's not so much wind.


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## Edge (Sep 5, 2003)

If true, this is a sad day for our hobby. 

Guess I better hold on to my Buck Rogers star fighter. We won't be seeing 
any new kits (save Episode III), for a long time if ever.



Edge


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## Mike Warshaw (Feb 23, 1999)

Curt Stoelting, CEO of RC2, sits in his office in an industrial park in Oak Brook, Ill., a chicken salad sandwich and a diet Moxie on his vast, polished mahogany desk. In front of him sits a Bob the Builder retail display and a prototype of the coming 1/18 John Deere Batman Begins tractor.

In between a conference call with investment analysts from Goldman Sachs and a meeting with Product Manager Mary Stevens, he confirms a dinner engagement with Battoys. Oening a large packet of Paramount photo references of the K'tinga studio model his subcontractor kit designer has at long last returned, he noodles on the Internet, downloading the latest USS Exeter trailer. While he waits, he stops on the PL board and comes across this thread. "Wait!" he thinks. "To hell with the stockholders! I really owe it to these guys to issue the kits they want! These few hundred souls are my true customers! Damn the millions represented by the buyers at Wal-Mart and Tar-jay! It's the PL board to whom I belong."

At which point his reverie is interrupted by men in white Nehru jackets carrying butterfly nets. As they carry him out, he screams, "Ziz! I am not an animal! I am a human being!"

and, 

"Damn! Where does that John P get the time?"


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## Dave Hussey (Nov 20, 1998)

I just noticed that Dave Metzner posted this on the other thread:

"I'd suggest that some of us need to chill out. 
This is about a Hobby, Hobbies are supposed to be relaxing, seems to me that some folks here are getting worked over some pretty silly stuff!"

Well, if what has been reported here is true, its not silly. Its not relaxing. It sucks big time.

I feel like someone has been lying to us throught their teeth.

Huzz


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

Welcome to the real world! Before I came to Hobby Talk, I never knew about what was coming out. I always looked at the models in stores, and buy what they have that I want. That is the way I will be for now on.


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## Dr. Brad (Oct 5, 1999)

Lloyd Collins said:


> Welcome to the real world! Before I came to Hobby Talk, I never knew about what was coming out. I always looked at the models in stores, and buy what they have that I want. That is the way I will be for now on.


Those darn red pills!


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

So what'cher subtley saying is the K'Tinga was cancelled 'cause Thomas was taking too long developing it? That was the only reason?


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## lonfan (Feb 11, 2001)

John P said:


> I was just at Hiway Hobby and scifiguy tells me he got an order form from RC2 that listed "1/350 Klingon - CANCELLED" and "New Seaview - CANCELLED."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And Have you seen a "Refit" ANYWHERE yet? This is sounding Serious. I had the Hardest Time Gettin' use to the Enterprise of STTMP but by the Time "Search for Spock" came round' I was actually maybe just a Wee Bit more Upset by the Destruction of the Film "1701" than I was by the Death Of Spock! Okay Not that much lol It's just that with Spock,ya' knew they'ed Certinly bring him back,But the Ship? I was scared that perhaps our heroes were gonna come back in something Ugly! lol but what a relief when that ol' familar Design (well it had become so by ST4! right?) showed up Again. Well I digress All I'm sayin' is Here's to Hoping that This Refit gets in under the wire!
JOHN/LONFAN


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## ChrisDoll (Sep 2, 1999)

That was quite funny, Mike!


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

Mike Warshaw said:


> Curt Stoelting, CEO of RC2, sits in his office in an industrial park in Oak Brook, Ill., a chicken salad sandwich and a diet Moxie on his vast, polished mahogany desk. In front of him sits a Bob the Builder retail display and a prototype of the coming 1/18 John Deere Batman Begins tractor.
> 
> In between a conference call with investment analysts from Goldman Sachs and a meeting with Product Manager Mary Stevens, he confirms a dinner engagement with Battoys. Oening a large packet of Paramount photo references of the K'tinga studio model his subcontractor kit designer has at long last returned, he noodles on the Internet, downloading the latest USS Exeter trailer. While he waits, he stops on the PL board and comes across this thread. "Wait!" he thinks. "To hell with the stockholders! I really owe it to these guys to issue the kits they want! These few hundred souls are my true customers! Damn the millions represented by the buyers at Wal-Mart and Tar-jay! It's the PL board to whom I belong."
> 
> ...


Gawd....

Hey, Mike - Why don't you actually *show some balls* and just tell us _why_ it is that you think that the K'T'Inga was canceled? C'mon on now, don't be shy about it! You seem to revel in slinging poop every chance you get. Of course, I'm sure most of us who've been around since your recent return won't be surprised, what w/your obsession with trying to make the "subcontractor kit designer" look as bad as you can. You've got to spend endless hours thinking of new and exciting ways to bag on him and cast blame for all the woes of the world at his feet....  

Grow up, dude. All you're doing is someone elses dirty work and dragging the hobby down with it.... 

- - - - - - 

Jeffrey Griffin
Griffworks Shipyards
 
* * * * * *

Star Trek Scale Modeling WebRing


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## lonfan (Feb 11, 2001)

BTW JOHNP- Was there possibility Any illustrations with this order Form? Just curious JUST How far these Pieces had actually made it in the Manufacturing Order? perhaps never anything more than a Box Mockup OR perhaps even a Prototype? (remember the Jim Groman Godzilla US Version?) I believe there WAS the ONE Kit EVER produced! Anyhoo just wondering
JOHN/LONFAN


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## lonfan (Feb 11, 2001)

Oops Sorry


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

John P said:


> So what'cher subtley saying is the K'Tinga was cancelled 'cause Thomas was taking too long developing it? That was the only reason?


Which is a load of crap, considering how long ago the drawings were "in the can". More of that "let's make Thomas look as bad as we can" crap from the Stirrier of Poo.  

- - - - - - 

Jeffrey Griffin
Griffworks Shipyards
 
* * * * * *

Star Trek Scale Modeling WebRing


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## Edge (Sep 5, 2003)

Griffworks said:


> Which is a load of crap, considering how long ago the drawings were "in the can". More of that "let's make Thomas look as bad as we can" crap from the Stirrier of Poo.
> 
> - - - - - -
> 
> ...


I'd have to definitely agree with that. The 1/350 kits were
being built in series. They finished the NX, then worked on the
Refit, one would easily imagine that work on the K'Tinga *should* have 
started in *China* in December 2004. Remember Thomas did the plans, the 
prototypes and all other tooling was handled in China.

Signing off, before I say something... not nice.

Edge


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## dreamer (Jan 1, 1970)

Ummm...anyway... (Not up on that conflict, not getting involved in it no way!  )

Any minute now, someone will tell us to "Go build something". The problem is that we have yet to see whether RC2 intends to build anything. _Almost _all the signs are that they are tearing down instead. What is upsetting is that they did publicly declare a commitment to us that such was not their intent - many of us have given theim support based on their word.

I say 'almost' because of their willingness to support the PLBB and the Make-&Take at WonderFest. That deserves some trust, and indicates that at least someone at RC2 has a clue who the customer base has been that PL carefully nurtured. Surely you don't woo support from WonderFest if you think PL's customer base is inconsiderable or consists solely of tykes at Target buying Herbies?

Putting this diplomatically, *I hope I am correct in thinking these are positive signs from which RC2 can regain the trust of their customers.* But that goodwill has been sorely abused. So far, all we know of PL under RC2 ownership is what they _won't_ market - _including kits that a great many of us wanted_, and supporting the strong impression that we were lied to. The members of this BB do represent a share of their market - every member of the BB representing more consumers who do not post or have never come to this board.


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

So what are all of you talking about? Oh I see, now I need a shower! Next time I won't pass by the fan at the wrong time.


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## Prince of Styrene II (Feb 28, 2000)

John P said:


> I was just at Hiway Hobby and scifiguy tells me he got an order form from RC2 that listed "1/350 Klingon - CANCELLED" and "New Seaview - CANCELLED."


Well....





....hell.


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## Dave Metzner (Jan 1, 1970)

The Ktinga design was still incomplete and behind schedule while the 1:350th NCC-1701-A kit development was also well and truely behind schedule.
I can easily understand why RC-2 has pulled the plug.
If The big refit is a huge hit, who knows? Perhaps there will be a resumption of work on more Trek kits.
By the way, folks, the 1:350 STMP Klingon Battle Cruiser kit was never officially announced, neither was the Seaview.
How did anyone lie to us???
Too many times unsubstantiated rumors have become facts on this forum, leading to dissapointment and apparent anger among some members when these rumors don't come true.
Yes these kits were under development BUT they were never officially announced, NEVER promised to anyone. 
How can we get so upset about the cancellation of half started projects. While I was at Polar Lights, we cancelled a whole bunch of projects over the years, it comes with the territory!
This thread is the very reason that the big model kit companies do not engage in conversation with people like us. Please note that the ONLY model kit company that ever had a BB was PL. also please take note of the number of times we've been down this path in one way or another.

I'm sorry that some of you feel somehow betrayed, projects get cancelled or delayed or changed every day in this industry, we'll never hear about most of them because most of the producers in this business don't talk to us very much, until they've got something all done in a box and ready to sell to us.

Dave


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## alpha-8 (Oct 31, 1999)

Dave Metzner said:


> The Ktinga design was still incomplete and behind schedule while the 1:350th NCC-1701-A kit development was also well and truely behind schedule.
> I can easily understand why RC-2 has pulled the plug.
> If The big refit is a huge hit, who knows? Perhaps there will be a resumption of work on more Trek kits.
> By the way, folks, the 1:350 STMP Klingon Battle Cruiser kit was never officially announced, neither was the Seaview.
> ...


Dave, I can understand the frustration you must feel with some of the posts here. All of us can agree that you often times answer the same questions time and time again. I suppose that maybe we (the fans/consumers) were told too much for too long. Now that the flow info has dwindled, we thirst for more and more. Oh, and the rumors...yea, they get pretty bad here.

You were always willing to provide us with information on upcoming kits and the inner workings of the industry. You were open to most, if not all, comments/questions/criticisims. Maybe in hindsight, you gave us too much (not shaming you...shaming us-the fans/consumers). Hell, I remember when we were "snuck" pics of various pieces from the 1/350 1701 before the NX-01 was even released. You can't really blame us for wanting the same now.

I understand that no official announcement was made in regards to the K'Tinga, but I'm still disappointed. For some reason, I just believed that it would be produced. Oh well. Bigger things in life to loose sleep over...


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Well, I just started the thread looking for confirmation is all.


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

John P said:


> Well, I just started the thread looking for confirmation is all.


Now see whatcha went and done ?


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

I should'a knowed.


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## Prince of Styrene II (Feb 28, 2000)

alpha-8 said:


> I understand that no official announcement was made in regards to the K'Tinga, but I'm still disappointed. For some reason, I just believed that it would be produced. Oh well. Bigger things in life to loose sleep over...


I also guess it's just the _possability_ of what _might have_ been. You guys have produced such wonderful Trek kits, we were drooling at the thought of having one in our hands. A 350 K'Tinga would have been incredible! The anticipation, the occasional pictures, the excitement of nearing a release date...

Oooo, it's positively masochistic! :devil:


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## JGG1701 (Nov 9, 2004)

Are we 100% sure about this ?


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## Dave Metzner (Jan 1, 1970)

One more word here. I DO NOT want anyone to get the impression that somehow Thomas Sasser is in anyway at fault in any of this. Thom has always done his best for me.
The delays on the big Klingon started at the beginning of the project when reference materials needed for the projecte were late in arriving.
Thom did his best to deliver the design drawings, under difficult circumstances.

Sorry that some of you are dissapointed. I know that Thom sure is!

The 1:350 Enterprise is coming it is late but it does fit together well and does contain most of the features that were designed into Thom's original drawings. 
After that kit gets to the stores we'll see what develops.

Dave


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

My fingers are crossed (and getting achey from being crossed for, like, a year). 

I hope you're in there boosting the series, Dave .


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## Mike Warshaw (Feb 23, 1999)

Too, too ugly. 


Griff, I speak for myself and from ten years of history with Tom.

How about taking our little problem offline, the way you love, and let him speak for himself? He's right here and can do his own dirty work.

By the way, it's spelled "cool", without a 'k' or a 'w'. Just a tip from a friend.




edited to include Griff's poetry:

Gawd....

Hey, Mike - Why don't you actually *show some balls* and just tell us _why_ it is that you think that the K'T'Inga was canceled? C'mon on now, don't be shy about it! You seem to revel in slinging poop every chance you get. Of course, I'm sure most of us who've been around since your recent return won't be surprised, what w/your obsession with trying to make the "subcontractor kit designer" look as bad as you can. You've got to spend endless hours thinking of new and exciting ways to bag on him and cast blame for all the woes of the world at his feet....  

Grow up, dude. All you're doing is someone elses dirty work and dragging the hobby down with it.... 

- - - - - -


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

Cool is a temperature related word, oft-used to describe not only mean temperatures, but those of people's tempers, as well. 

Kewel is a slang term meaning "Gosh, that's just so very, very awesome!"

Thankee sai for the attempt at grammar correction. Wasn't needed, since slang terminology is a thoroughly acceptable form of communication on the 'Net. As long as it's legible and you have no problem understanding it, there's no need for any "help" from you, Mr. Warshaw. It is, of course, noted in the context it was attempted to be given. 
Buh-bye. :wave:


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

Dave Metzner said:


> One more word here. I DO NOT want anyone to get the impression that somehow Thomas Sasser is in anyway at fault in any of this. Thom has always done his best for me.
> The delays on the big Klingon started at the beginning of the project when reference materials needed for the projecte were late in arriving.
> Thom did his best to deliver the design drawings, under difficult circumstances.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the clarification on things, Dave. Sad that some folks have to cast blame and aspersions on individuals when it was simply a matter of snowballing bad circumstances. Been there, done that in the past, myself. 

Here's hoping that we get good sales on the 1/350 Refit, then! I was only going to buy one, but might now buy two if it'll help give RC2 some sort of indicator at how far they should take the 1/350 scale line. Worst case scenario, I put the second on eBay with a Buy-It-Now price of my cost. It might help someone out who otherwise wouldn't be able to get their hands on one. Anything to help further the hobby can't be bad, right?  

Thanks again, Dave. It's a real shame that PL/RC2 has lost you. Your posts here have gone a long way towards keeping a lot of folks satiated, even tho you've been the inadvertant subject of some flak. Please don't feel you've not been appreciated!


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## Mike Warshaw (Feb 23, 1999)

Dave Metzner







vbmenu_register("postmenu_1012954", true); 
Elder Statesman
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Mishawaka IN
Posts: 847 


The Ktinga design was still incomplete and behind schedule while the 1:350th NCC-1701-A kit development was also well and truely behind schedule.
I can easily understand why RC-2 has pulled the plug.
If The big refit is a huge hit, who knows? Perhaps there will be a resumption of work on more Trek kits.
By the way, folks, the 1:350 STMP Klingon Battle Cruiser kit was never officially announced, neither was the Seaview.
How did anyone lie to us???
Kewel


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## Dave Metzner (Jan 1, 1970)

The reasons that RC-2 has chosen not to proceed with this kit are theirs alone. 
Fault for the delays is mine as much as anyones. The tone of some posts here is not appropriate.
Please take the personal stuff off the board.
Thank you.
Dave


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## alpha-8 (Oct 31, 1999)

Hey Moderator, lock this baby up. No good will come out of anything further...let's move on or "go build something".

Dave


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## Rogue1 (Jan 3, 2000)

Dave's got it right. Keep the personal BS off the boards. If you want to trash eachother and point fingers, use e-mail, phone or write eachother letters. All the finger pointing is not going to make any one of you come out looking cleaner than the other. It just serves to make each of you look silly, and confuse the people here trying to get some real information. Grow up a bit.


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## Otto69 (Jan 2, 2004)

Unfortunately, if what various people have posted in various places in recent months is true, the revenue lost from those few of us who buy the fantasy/sci-fi PL kits is off the radar when compared to the revenue from the car-kit buying modeling public.


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## beeblebrox (Jul 30, 2003)

Someone should bury this thread under my azaleas. That'll make 'em bloom. :drunk: 


Lock please. :wave: B-bye now.


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## mb1k (May 6, 2002)

*Vernacular*

I've never met you personally Griff, but "kewel" is moronic and it's use belongs to pre-teens, tweenies, and insecure teenagers or those with "@aol.com" extenstions following their email IDs ;-)



Griffworks said:


> Cool is a temperature related word, oft-used to describe not only mean temperatures, but those of people's tempers, as well.
> 
> Kewel is a slang term meaning "Gosh, that's just so very, very awesome!"
> 
> ...


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## Dave Hussey (Nov 20, 1998)

Hi Dave,

First of all, when I said "I feel like someone has been lying to us throught their teeth" I did not mean to imply or suggest that you personally have been anything but forthright and honest with us. I sincerely apologize if my choice of words gave you that sense.

To clarify, since the sale of PL to RC2 we have been assured that PL would continue in some meaningful way and we would continue to see kits similar to what we had in the past from PL, albeit perhaps not in as great numbers per year as we are used to, but they would continue nonetheless. However, the information about the cancellation of those two kits gives rise to significant and I think a valid concern that this may not in fact be the case; people fear that "the jig is up" for Polar Lights. And I think that worry is behind 100% of the emotion here. People are not just big fans of Polar Lights, they are huge fans and I think they are hugely worried that the great stuff they have seen from PL will be no more.

In any case, I just returned from the local shop where, upon walking in the door with my young son, the guy behind the counter grinned and gestured to the PL NX-01 and Captain America kits waiting with my name on them. At which point my little fellow said "Spaceship Daddy!!" Well, more than one hundred dollars later we walked out the door. It was a great afternoon visit to buy models.

I really hope to have more of them.

Huzz


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Hey, gang! How about a contest to see who can scratchbuild the best 1/350th K'tinga model? :thumbsup:


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## Steve CultTVman Iverson (Jan 1, 1970)

Wow. You guys sure know how to get worked up.

Ktinga and the Seaview... wouldn't those be great kits? Along with a few other things that were in the works, planned, dreamed. Unfortunately, whenever a company is bought out, all projects are reviewed and most are killed. Its the nature of the business. If it wasn't a Ktinga or Seaview, it would have been something else. 

Delays are the curse of any business and Polar Lights had their share of delays. You can point all the fingers you like but it isn't going to do you any good. None of those projects were ever officially announced or even confirmed. You have no reason to be upset about them. They were never promised.

I've been an observer, following these projects and others for quite some time. I've got bits of information from a lot of people. Bits of information don't really mean a lot without context. Now you guys have given this some frame of context, so here is a little news for you. 

Dave Metzner has fought hard to get the Star Trek line produced and a large Seaview produced. I've known the designers involved with both projects and its pretty safe to say that a lot of the delays were their fault. Dave Metzner isn't going to come onto a public forum and publicly accuse anyone he may need to have a business relationship with. So he's not going to point a finger at Thomas Sasser or anyone else. Metzner worked very hard on the Seaview and the Trek kits, so I am sure he is just as frustrated that these did not happen as all of you. I know he fought very hard with is the people that ran oversaw operations at Playing Mantis and that it was an uphill battle all the way. We can be very thankful for Dave's efforts, or you may never have seen that large C57D, the big NX-01, or the soon to arrive refit Enterprise. Thanks Dave!

That said, if you want to cast blame beyond Racing Champions, look to the guys doing the design work. Thomas Sasser was as reliable at completing the plans for the kits as he was at filling his orders. Deadlines were regularly missed and there were plenty of excuses. I was regularly in contact with Sasser at the time he was developing the 1:1000 scale Enterprise and the large NX-01 and I heard an incredible amount of information about delays and even more excuses over many months directly from him. Sasser is not the most reliable guy in the world, and anyone that says differently is a liar.

The guy doing the Seaview design work was also way behind schedule. I'm not going to name names, as this guy has not gone out and told the world about his involvement in the project and he has not put his credibility on line.

Metzner had his hands full. He was busy working on plenty of other projects including many other Polar Lights kits and Johnny Lightning slot cars. He did a great job of rangling more projects than any one person could manage. He did all he could to get the design work on these kits completed as fast as he could.

Mike Warshaw has done his homework. He's got his details right. He's talked to the people involved and isn't hiding anything. He's been an insider on Polar Lights long before I ever was. 

Griffy, you have been an appologist for Sasser as long as I have known you. You known just as long as anyone that he can't deliver. You need to realize that he uses you to defend him. Why should he cover his ass when he has you to tell the world what a great guy he is.

There's a bunch of you that will say I have a chip on my shoulder against Sasser. Frankly, I moved to distance myself from him two years ago after multitudes of complaints and then tried to implicate me in his business dispute with Don's Light and Magic. I felt I had to distance myself from Sasser if I were to have any credibility. I wish him the best and hope that one day he gets his act together.

I will say this, Thomas Sasser is a great, talented designer. His Trek kits are fantastic and you can be gratefull he was involved in the design work. He translated the research of people like Gary Kerr, William McCullars and many others into fantastic models.

I'm hopeful for the eventual release of both a Ktinga and a Seaview and perhaps more models beyond this. Keep your fingers crossed and keep the faith. If the refit is a success, I have have the greatest of hope that the Trek kine will continue and and these kits will come about. That's just faith in the hobby....

For whatever it is worth

Steve


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## dreamer (Jan 1, 1970)

Dave Hussey said:


> Hi Dave,
> ...I did not mean to imply or suggest that you personally have been anything but forthright and honest with us. I sincerely apologize if my choice of words gave you that sense.
> 
> ...since the sale of PL to RC2 we have been assured that PL would continue in some meaningful way and we would continue to see kits similar to what we had in the past from PL, albeit perhaps not in as great numbers per year as we are used to, but they would continue nonetheless. However, the information about the cancellation of those two kits gives rise to significant and I think a valid concern that this may not in fact be the case...


What Huzz said, both sentiments. It will help when we have some word of new projects from PL that have originated under RC2 ownership. So far, the news has been what we _won't_ be getting under them as the last few kits that originate before the buyout trivckle forth or are canceled. I hope you understand how discouraging this is for some of us. We won't be getting figure kits. On the sci-fi vehicle front, the Seaview sunk and the K'Tinga mothballed - that hurts, yes, but worse it discourages hope for anyhting in a similar vein.

Dave, you personally I trust. What I have little hope left for at this point are the future plans for PL from on high.

On a side note, current fashion for 'kewel', 'kew-el', and other variations is that the word is used ironically or sarcastically, poking fun at the mentality that spawned it originally or indicating that the subject being referred to as "kewel" is anything but.


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## Otto69 (Jan 2, 2004)

*Finally I can understand the situation..*

I've been utterly baffled by all the he said/she said stuff going on. Finally someone just comes out and explains the plotline of this vignette. So what this all comes down to is that someone who's a highly skilled artist might not be a highly skilled business person. Well that wouldn't exactly be a first now would it? Certainly not worthy of ongoing arguments or finger pointing. Who cares?

As for Polar Lights, a whole bunch of the rumor and inuendo might be reduced if they'd simply come out and make a statement, rather than continually slipping dates of products, cancelling products, and demonstrating an inability to even accurately update their website or describe their products (such as the Nemesis Scorpion). I'm not even asking for proprietary product plans, just something like "We will have X number of new kits released this year, Y from movie blah blah blah, and Z from historical sci-fi/fantasy subjects."

Ah well, back to real life....


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

mb1k said:


> I've never met you personally Griff, but "kewel" is moronic and it's use belongs to pre-teens, tweenies, and insecure teenagers or those with "@aol.com" extenstions following their email IDs ;-)


Whatever, dude. Nice of you to attack my use of the word for no other reason than to denigrate me. Very "adult" of you. I know quite a few folks who use variations on "kewel/kewl" and I guess your generalization of us means we're all moron's. 

That gets you the old "Whatever" award.  

For those who think that "kewel", "kewl" or "kew-el" is juvenile in it's use, you can always just ignore it or whatever floats your boat. Dictionary.com has this to say about the word kewl, however: 


> *Main Entry:* kewl*Part of Speech:* _adjective_*Definition:* excellent, wonderful*Etymology:* humorous spelling of _cool_*Usage:* slang


So, "dreamer", "current use" is to use it as a ridiculing slang word to poke fun at folks who use it...?  

I've used the spelling of "kewel" for over 7 years of online life and never once have I used it to "indicate the subject being referred to as "kewel" is anything but." 

Not sure WTF the deal is with folks thinkin' they have to pick on my use of the slang word, but that's their problem, not mine.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

^^I just have a problem with your use of the word 'is'.


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## dreamer (Jan 1, 1970)

Griffworks said:


> So, "dreamer", "current use" is to use it as a ridiculing slang word to poke fun at folks who use it...?


Not picking on you. Just reporting the current fashion - that's how it's being used (also thought that's how you were using it - but I wouldn't have ridiculed you for it either way). Hey, I hate the whims of fashion too. Don't be so quick to take personal offense, we got enough o' that going around!


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

Steve CultTVman Iverson said:


> *>SNIP OF THE OTHER CRAP<*
> Griffy, you have been an appologist for Sasser as long as I have known you. You known just as long as anyone that he can't deliver. You need to realize that he uses you to defend him. Why should he cover his ass when he has you to tell the world what a great guy he is.


That's funny, Steve. At least he doesn't tend to go out of his way to take pot-shots at folks unless provoked by the likes of you and Warshaw. More than anything, _that_ is why I respond to tripe against him. 

Y'know, Steve, I think you're right to point out to everyone about that chip on your shoulder. It's there for all to see and you like to constantly bring up Thomas' _past_ failings, pointing your finger at that chunk of granite on your shoulder.

The times I've stepped forward to defend Thomas over the last couple of years have been whenever you and others start dredging up the past. Please point your finger at the last time I jumped out to defend Thomas' past business practices while you're waving it around. I learned that lesson during the delay problems w/the Ennex O'Won and New Orleans. And that was how many years ago, now...? Those business practices of his that you're so concerned with have turned around and improved considerably, yet you still bring them up...

Last time I checked, none of us are perfect and we all make mistakes - big and small. I've always lived by the thinking that we all need to move beyond the past. 

Some folks can't do that, however.  

I can recall a time when you used to be someone who built models and just enjoyed time w/the rest of the modelers. Back when everyone actually tried to get along and behave in a civil & respectful manner towards each other. When we used to have fun in the old AOL Chats. What happened to that, Steve? Why is it you have to resort to attempts at belitting me w/"Griffy"? 

What a world....


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## dreamer (Jan 1, 1970)

Don't get offended, guys, but...you've all been called out publicly by now, felt the need to defend your names publicly, and you've all taken the opportunity to make a response. Could we cut it off at that, please? Noboddy else on the BB is looking to have the place polluted with personal feuds.


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

PerfesserCoffee said:


> ^^I just have a problem with your use of the word 'is'.


I... I'm... 

I'm sooo sorry! Please forgive me! 

I'll seek counseling! 

I'll go to a Twelve Step Program! 

I promise to make better use of the word 'is' if you'll forgive me my past transgressions....  



dreamer said:


> Not picking on you. Just reporting the current fashion - that's how it's being used (also thought that's how you were using it - but I wouldn't have ridiculed you for it either way). Hey, I hate the whims of fashion too. Don't be so quick to take personal offense, we got enough o' that going around!


OK Sorry for jumping the gun, then. I've always used it that way and guess I don't go to "those places" where it's fallen out of fashion or into a different fashion use. I really do use it to me "really, really awesome!", promise. 

Of course, I have to admit to a slightly darker reason for my use of the word - I know it spools certain "celebraties" w/in the modeling community up whenever they see it used. And today's railing against it by people apparently much, much smarter than I make me want to continue using it even more. Heh....


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## beeblebrox (Jul 30, 2003)

PerfesserCoffee said:


> Hey, gang! How about a contest to see who can scratchbuild the best 1/350th K'tinga model? :thumbsup:


How did a model building comment sneak into this thread? :wave:


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

Ok. What's a K'tinga? Does it come with cannons? Do you paint it with one of them Inca pattern ten-plates?


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## dreamer (Jan 1, 1970)

K'Tinga was the bad guy in Live and Let Die. And I'm still really mad because Dave M PROMISED us a good Yaphet Kotto kit.


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## Zorro (Jun 22, 1999)

dreamer said:


> K'Tinga was the bad guy in Live and Let Die. And I'm still really mad because Dave M PROMISED us a good Yaphet Kotto kit.


..... _right!_


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## beeblebrox (Jul 30, 2003)

I've seen dem Kay Tangas on Star Track back when I use ta work fer Kay-Mark.


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## alpha-8 (Oct 31, 1999)

This is better than reality tv.

hmmm....

"coming this fall...Survivor: K'Tinga! Can Camp Cult win this weeks "immunity Chip" while Camp Sasser tries to get back on schedule and complete their camp site? Stay tuned...blink an eye and you'll miss action packed, emotion laced mud slinging! Only on the Racing Champion Network.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

dreamer said:


> K'Tinga was the bad guy in Live and Let Die. And I'm still really mad because Dave M PROMISED us a good Yaphet Kotto kit.


 Normal or inflated?

FWIW, I prefer the spelling "kewl" and I tend to use it sarcasticly.

And really, I only started the thread to let people know there really WAS going to be a K'Tinga and Seaview, just to share my sadness at their demise. Didn't mean for the snowball effect - or avalanche, as it were.


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## beeblebrox (Jul 30, 2003)

alpha-8 said:


> blink an eye and you'll miss action packed, emotion laced mud slinging!


I believe that's "mud packed,action laced emotion slinging". :freak:


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## Brent Gair (Jun 26, 1999)

Zorro said:


> Ok. What's a K'tinga?


Ironically (or perhaps as a product of superior thought processes ), you've actually hit on a very fundamental problem about model production in general and trek model production in particular.

Let me say with all honesty, I have NO idea what a K'tinga is. None at all...I really don't. It's apparently trek related...I gues I know that much.

Of course, for most people here, their reaction to that revelation would be, "Who the heck cares whether or not you know what a K'tinga is".

Therein lies a fundamental problem. A model aimed soley at hard core, knowledgable fans of one particular show is going to be fighting an uphill battle. I don't know what a K'tinga is and who cares. Fair enough. I would venture to say that 99.5% of the general public doesn't know either. Of course, the argument can be logically made that "the general public" aren't model builders. That's also fair enough. Nevertheless, any product that is expected to be widely available at a reasonable price should be expected to have a reasonably high recognition factor.

It's one thing for a garage kit maker to produce RTV molds for a 100 kits and quite another to tool up for an injection molded product. I can certainly understand the reluctance of a company to commit to the production of an item which has zero name recognition among 199 out of every 200 people!

People should be realistic about their passions. How many times over the years have I read that "XXXX kits are a license to print money" or "EVERYBODY loves XXXX, they'll sell a million kits". Those are probably the last words a company hears before it files for Chapter 11.


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## kahless72 (Jan 6, 2004)

Wow people's, 
Reading all this gave me a headache. I commend Dave, Thomas, and everybody else for bringing us the NX-01. To bad the show is ending for the Enterprise Crew. I am a patient person, so I cna wait for the Refit Enterprise to come out....... I still have Christmas to thing about. 

And now that I have just bought my first house, I will have all the room I need to get several of the Refit-E. It's great, right now I have NO money, so the delay is great for me. Something to look forward to in the coming parts of the year.

A 1/350 scale K'tang klingon ship, which is that, from Motion Picture or Undiscovered Country? I would REALLY like to see a 1/350th scale of the Klingon Bird of Prey. *Hint Hint**Poke**Stab*

Well I have said what I wanted to say. 

"General Kahless has Spoken*


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## origAurora buyer (Jan 12, 1999)

I just think it's kind of odd that...if it wasn't announced as up coming kits...then why announce that they're not coming....?

I had no idea that the bigger Seaview was anything more than a mild hint, Tom Lowe made, in an open PLBB chat a few years ago.

I would have been better off not knowing that it almost happened. 

Kind of an un-necessary sadness fills me now.

OAB


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## Admiral Nelson (Feb 28, 2002)

*Seaview*

This kit ( BIG Seaview) was the last hope of us who have waited 40 years for a decent one. They screwed the pooch on this one, IMHO. Let's wait for Paul Lubliners version and be happy, finally.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

John P said:


> . . . I only started the thread to let people know there really WAS going to be a K'Tinga and Seaview, just to share my sadness at their demise. Didn't mean for the snowball effect - or avalanche, as it were.


I appreciate the news. It let me know that there really were some good plans for models at PL. I'd rather know there were going to be those and they didn't happen than that PL never planned them at all. As someone mentioned, it's possible for the projects to be picked up again.


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## spe130 (Apr 13, 2004)

Ok, and the crabby Trek-basher shows back up.... FYI, for the one and a half people in this thread who don't know what a K'Tinga is, we can use a simpler name....Klingon ship (from ST I and ST VI). Who doesn't know what a Klingon is? From what I understand, the D-7 kit has sold well.

Considering how much money AMT/Ertl has to have made since 1966 (or '67) on Trek kits (and PL after them), we're not exactly talking about a niche market with no cash, but a rather lucrative segment of the hobby.

Anyone care to chime in with some semi-accurate figures of how many 1/1000 1701, 1/1000 D-7, and 1/350 NX-01 kits were sold by PL? We all know that AMT sold an insane number of the 18" Enterprise over the 30+ years they had the license.

Rationality aside, in keeping with the spirit of this thread....bite me! :wave:


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## Otto69 (Jan 2, 2004)

*Lmao!*

That parody of reality TV is hilarious. Particularly the part about getting the campsite completed


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Brent Gair said:


> Therein lies a fundamental problem. A model aimed soley at hard core, knowledgable fans of one particular show is going to be fighting an uphill battle. I don't know what a K'tinga is and who cares. Fair enough. I would venture to say that 99.5% of the general public doesn't know either. Of course, the argument can be logically made that "the general public" aren't model builders. That's also fair enough. Nevertheless, any product that is expected to be widely available at a reasonable price should be expected to have a reasonably high recognition factor.


 Ah, but the same can be said for other model genres too! 99% of the general public doesn't know the difference between a Tiger tank with a standard turret or one with a Porsche turret. But Dragon makes both. 99% of the public doesn't know the diff between a Bf-109 B,C,D,E,F,G or K. But there are tens of Messerschmitt models in _all _those marks. 99% of the public doesn't know the diff between different racers' NASCAR cars (at least I hope they don't). And yet...  There are FEWER Trek models than ANY mainstream subject, and probably the same amount of people who know what a K'Tinga is as know which mark of Sherman had the 75mm gun. How high a recognition factor does an Armstrong Whitworth Whitley have? Yet there's a stack of them at HiWay Hobby.


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

I take the day to go to a movie, and some shopping, and all hell breaks loose! 
Oh well. Glad someone called the fire department to but the fire out. 

I don't care about a Klingon ship. I have enought. What about a Klingon NASCAR Special Edition CAR?


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## TheYoshinator! (Apr 2, 2004)

First off I wanna say I don't care for all the drama queen crap. I have no interest in taking sides, save my own.

Stop counter answering someone's fired shot! If people are here or elsewhere long enough they will realise the truth. Which is that BOTH sides are to blame. It's non-stop "Pot calling the Kettle Black". It's very old and so very pointless.

Now to the matter at hand. All I have to say is that it's not over yet. RC2's gonna notice the sells of the Refit. That is.... IF it sells well. And if they don't recognise the opportunity to make money from us and TOS/TOS Movie era.... well they can pretty much forget about my money floating into RC2 via the Polar Light "LABEL" since I have no interest in anything beyond Trek SHIPs!

Oh well... life goes on!


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

Lloyd Collins said:


> I take the day to go to a movie, and some shopping, and all hell breaks loose!
> Oh well. Glad someone called the fire department to but the fire out.


Sorry, dude. Promise not to sling any more poo myself. Just t'ain't worth it, y'know? Life's too short and ignoring the poo slingers is the way to go. Lesson learned from listening to lots of other folks who are tired of it. I'm a part of that and promise to get back to the modeling part of this hobby. 


> I don't care about a Klingon ship. I have enought. What about a Klingon NASCAR Special Edition CAR?


Sorta like this one? Maybe the NASCAR Klingon can race the NX. Wonder who'd sponsor the Klingons...?


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## dreamer (Jan 1, 1970)

A tiger tank, is that like a fish tank? What a stupid idea. If I tried to keep my tiger in a tank it'd rip my damn head off.


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## Lloyd Collins (Sep 25, 2004)

When I watch NASCAR, I get bored and watch the dog chase it's tail. They both go round and round!

Maybe the Klingons can get VELCRO to sponsor.


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## alpha-8 (Oct 31, 1999)

Actually, it seems as though that a lot of this has been festering with some of the key participants for quite some time. Maybe it was good that we had this little outburst. Side A said this and side B said that. For the rest of us, it is kinda like watching a tennis match. I really don't think that there is anything else to say by either side. No apologies, no one last zinger. Like I said earlier when I thought it was going to get ugly (like it did), lock this puppy up and throw away the key.


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## iamweasel (Aug 14, 2000)

spe130 said:


> Who doesn't know what a Klingon is?


 
OOOOH I know..it involves Uranus and a ball of sh...errrr never mind.


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## grantf (Feb 2, 2004)

bla bla


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Lloyd Collins said:


> I don't care about a Klingon ship. I have enought. What about a Klingon NASCAR Special Edition CAR?


 Good lord, don't give 'em any ideas!! :lol:


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Lloyd Collins said:


> Maybe the Klingons can get VELCRO to sponsor.


Watch out! That's another sticky subject!


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## Mike Warshaw (Feb 23, 1999)

I swear this is true.

Last week, RC2 issued their financial news for last year and last quarter. The news was pretty bad. It said, "Net income for the year ended December 31, 2004 was $34.0 million or $1.72 per diluted share as compared with $38.4 million or $2.12 per diluted share for the year ended December 31, 2003." 

But it also said sales were in collectibles "have been negatively impacted by the continued softness in the automotive replica product lines including difficult comparisons with The Fast and The Furious product line sales last year and the *continuing decline in NASCAR product sales*."
No Klingon NASCAR.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

^^Sounds as though most of the NASCAR fans already have their favorite car(s).


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## Arronax (Apr 6, 1999)

Lloyd Collins said:


> I don't care about a Klingon ship. I have enought. What about a Klingon NASCAR Special Edition CAR?


Something in this vein?

Jim


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## sbaxter at home (Feb 15, 2004)

Why were the K'tinga and Seaview _really_ cancelled?

[Jon Lovitz off the deep end voice]Okay, I confess. I did it, and I'm _glad_! Glad, I say! I'd do it again, too; you all deserve what you're getting, which is _nothing_! You all laughed at me, but who's laughing _NOW?_ Ah, ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!![/Jon Lovitz off the deep end voice]

Qapla'

SSB


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## woozle (Oct 17, 2002)

I would just like to take the opertunity to thank Thomas Sasser, Dave Metzner, and Polar Lights for getting the Refit out. Polar Lights may be down for the count, but it made it's controbution to the betterment of Humanity and nothing else they do will illicit a bad word from me. 

Be thankful for what we got.. we might not.


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## beck (Oct 22, 2003)

so does this mean there's still hope for a BIG FRANKIE repop ??
hb


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## ChrisDoll (Sep 2, 1999)

*Businesses are taking it up the pipe.*



Mike Warshaw said:


> Last week, RC2 issued their financial news for last year and last quarter. The news was pretty bad. It said, "Net income for the year ended December 31, 2004 was $34.0 million or $1.72 per diluted share as compared with $38.4 million or $2.12 per diluted share for the year ended December 31, 2003."


Mike pointed out a telling story there. That's a sizeable drop for any company, and is pretty typical of what's going on with most companies. Not many of you pay close attention to the business world, which is fine, but things aren't exactly pretty.

This recession that we're still in is complicated and nothing like previous recessions. Don't be confused by all the talk of recovery, we're not recovering as much as we are "going downhill slower". Businesses are pulling out the stops to keep alive long enough for their respective funding to carry them into the next economic upturn.

What does that mean for us? That means that fringe projects are going to be delayed, suspended, or otherwise cancelled in favor of projects that will keep the company alive. It's not personal. You don't have to like it, but they're not doing it to you on purpose. Sci-Fi models are niche market within a niche market, and licensing fees are a killer. Clearly we're on their radar in some capacity, otherwise you wouldn't be getting new Star Wars kits.

You can bet they're keeping a close eye on the sales of the Star Wars re-issues, and the Refit.

Having a delayed (or downright late) project development cycle certainly didn't help matters either. Late projects get killed even when times are good! I'd be willing to bet these projects were killed for more reasons than just being late, but that certainly had a lot to do with it. 

As for that old topic, the Polar Lights sale to Rc2... holy crap what a good move on Tom's part. I'd be out of this game in a second given how the economy is today. Especially if it were my nest egg on the line.


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## Sparky (Feb 21, 2004)

ChrisDoll said:


> What does that mean for us? That means that fringe projects are going to be delayed, suspended, or otherwise cancelled in favor of projects that will keep the company alive. It's not personal. You don't have to like it, but they're not doing it to you on purpose. Sci-Fi models are niche market within a niche market, and licensing fees are a killer. Clearly we're on their radar in some capacity, otherwise you wouldn't be getting new Star Wars kits.
> 
> You can bet they're keeping a close eye on the sales of the Star Wars re-issues, and the Refit.


Totally agree. Expressing feelings of being lied to or finger pointing won't do much to keep the the Star Trek line of models coming. Voting with your checkbook sure will let RC2 know that there is a viable market here that should continue. I see the Refit and the Star Wars reissues as open doors to doing just that. Personally, I had not planned to buy the Star Wars reissues being primarily a Trek fan. But I have changed my mind and will buy them now if for no other reason then to do my part to keep these kits coming.


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## Griffworks (Jun 24, 2002)

That's my thinking, too, tho I don't know if I'll buy any of the Star Wars kits. Definitely considering a Star Destroyer, tho.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Well, I was GOING to buy a star destroyer, but my pal Frank cleaned out his attic this weekend and gave me one of each Enterprise kit, a Flying Sub and, yes, a star destroyer :freak:


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## Admiral Nelson (Feb 28, 2002)

*This is funny*

Funny how Steve won't let anyone air dirty laundry on his site but he comes here and does it. It would be ironic if *his* posts were deleated.


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## Dr. Brad (Oct 5, 1999)

John P said:


> Well, I was GOING to buy a star destroyer, but my pal Frank cleaned out his attic this weekend and gave me one of each Enterprise kit, a Flying Sub and, yes, a star destroyer :freak:


Hey that's cool. I'm still waiting for the FS reissue. If it ever comes...

Brad.


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## THRUSH Central (Feb 20, 2003)

Big Wonder Woman! Big Wonder Woman!:roll:


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## Dave Metzner (Jan 1, 1970)

This is the end of this thread too


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