# a stupid question....



## WesJY (Mar 4, 2004)

I am getting the hang of making my cars go faster (silicone tires - how to clean, cleaning tracks, color code on tracks, lapcounter software, how to sand and fix warped bare chassis, the list goes on... all that I learned from this post by great guys. thanks for that!) 

Now one stupid question.. OIL.... i did some research on web but i am not getting clear answer.. now for tyco 440x2, srt, lifelike and magnatraction chassis - i do know there are different ways to do it but which is which like on each chassis for tyco i would put oil on rear axle, armature the outer part front and rear not inside, for lifelike just axle? so on.. if anyone have info on web that i might have missed. what kind of oil is good for all or must be different oil on each? should i use some kind of grease? that i see on new magnatraction? i do have to admit i did burn some chassis by using oil on wrong place or i dont know.

any info would be appreciated on this. 

thanks
Wes


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

I use Champion Ultimax Racing Oil on all magnet cars. It comes in a needle bottle and a single bottle lasts for years if you don't over-oil your cars. This is what it looks like:

http://www.slotcar.org/sites/champion2/pic_pages/pic_082.htm

and it's sold at hobby shops and suppliers of 1:24 and 1:32 racing products. Time tested and works well. I also tried Mobil 1 synthetic and didn't like it, too messy and made everything look dirty. But it probably performs okay, especially if you clean your car after every race. I also tried lightweight RC racing oil with silicone and it just didn't hold up, arm bearings were squealing.

I apply oil sparingly to the arm shaft bearings. That's all there really is to oiling an inline car. The only trick is to make sure you really get the oil where you want it. On SG+/G3 and Wizzard cars you should remove the magnet clip to get a clear shot at the rear bearing. I put a little oil on the front side of the rear bearing too, but don't put too much there or allow oil to get on the motor windings. I also chamfer the arm bearings ever so slightly, if they are not this way already from the factory, so they retain the oil better. 

Never let oil get on the commutator. 

As far as the axle bearing are concerned, I occasionally use a little moly lube or even a little of the racing oil, but very little. High downforce magnet cars will scrub off most anything you put on the axle so it won't buy you much. But every little bit helps. Just make sure your axles are perfectly smooth where they contact the chassis. Don't over do it or your racing buddies will complain about the oil you are leaving on the track.

On SG+ cars make sure you have plenty of spare magnet clips. They sometimes break.


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## AMX (Nov 1, 2005)

You want an oil that WILL NOT be attracted to heat. If you use oils like Mobil 1 or some other synthetic polymer oil it will wick straight onto the hottest part of your motor - the brushes and com plate. Most synthetic oils do exactly that - run for heat.

The early 60s-70s _failed_ synthetics did NOT run for heat making them poor oils for engines, but good oils for things like slotcars.


Thomas H Oyl is formulated like the early Mobil 1 chemistry that ran AWAY from heat thus keeping it off your commutator plate and brushes.


There are other oils like this out there, but this is the easiest one to find so I would just use it.


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## WesJY (Mar 4, 2004)

I have this instrument oil (its for speedometer, little electronics stuff)? my dad said i should give it a try and it looks exactly same bottling as champion?

what about lifelike chassis? where do i oil them? and SRT too?

Thanks for the info.. 

Wes


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## bigun624 (May 11, 2005)

I use a little pinpoint oiler i got for model train engines works good.


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## Dragula (Jun 27, 2003)

For t-jets use Freejet,it's the best out there.
Chris


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## Manning (Mar 2, 2004)

I have used Mobil 1 for years for all kinds of stuff. Never noticed this "runs for heat" phenomenon. I use a needle oiler and teeny tiny drops, and there's never any oil on the comm. Hmmmmmmm. Maybe I could do an experiment with a drop of oil positioned between a popsicle and a KC strip and see where the oil runs..... :freak: 


Wes, use the smallest amount of oil to do the job. Use whatever oil you want to. Mobil 1 or some mystery concoction that some slot racer is making money from, doesn't much matter. Pancake cars will squeal when the bottom arm shaft needs oil. Never heard the squeal with inlines, but it may happen with those as well.


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## AMX (Nov 1, 2005)

It is a well known fact that newer synthetic oils run towards heat. 

Put some on the arm hole and run the car for 10 seconds then look at the brushes...they will be wet.


Better yet, put a puddle in a skillet and hold a lighter under the pan near the edge of the puddle and watch the oil migrate to the heat.

LD Thomas knew this when he was researching polymers for his H Oyl and actually spoke with early Mobil engineers about the problems they were having with oil running AWAY from heat.

For a slot car nothing you need to have lube on will ever be hot. The hottest thing will be the arm core and the brushes....two things you don't want to be lubricated.


If you never noticed the black fowling crud on your com plate and the wet brushes after even light oiling I guess you aren't taking the car apart and looking at these parts right after you oil the car and run it. If you are I don't know how you could miss it.


Ask LD Thomas for the rest of the story....I can see this turning into one of those threads otherwise.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

> Wes, use the smallest amount of oil to do the job.


Absolutely! I see far more over oiling than under oiling.

Life-Likes are just like any other magnet car, oil the front and rear armature bearings.

Slot car racers frequently get all pumped up about "miracle cures" that give them an unfair advantage over the competition, from wondrous snake oils, hilariously high timed arms, boiled, baked, sauteed, and barbecued chassis, silly sponge tires, underwater break-ins, magic incantations, you name it... but at the end of the race it's primarily the psychological effect that these things have on the racers that makes more of a difference than the magic beans that they put into their cars. Simple, sound, time proven techniques for setting up a car coupled with a dedication for testing, tuning, and practicing driving make the most difference. Setup skills can be learned, driving skills must be earned. Both are needed to win races.


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## Manning (Mar 2, 2004)

AMX said:


> It is a well known fact that newer synthetic oils run towards heat. .


I have read this before, but I have a difficult time beliving it. Will it run uphill? How far? How fast? Inquiring minds want to know. I googled this for a bit and found.....nothing. Got a link? I like to read stuff...



AMX said:


> Put some on the arm hole and run the car for 10 seconds then look at the brushes...they will be wet..


I have, and they aren't. 





AMX said:


> If you never noticed the black fowling crud on your com plate and the wet brushes after even light oiling I guess you aren't taking the car apart and looking at these parts right after you oil the car and run it. If you are I don't know how you could miss it...


Brushes contain carbon and graphite. Carbon and graphite are both black....... Coincidence?




AMX said:


> Ask LD Thomas for the rest of the story....I can see this turning into one of those threads otherwise.


Is LD Thomas a salesman? Or a ????


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## 1976Cordoba (Sep 20, 2000)

I've used the Champion oil -- it's fine.
I've also used 3-in-1 oil from any Walgreens or grocery store, applied with a toothpick -- it's fine too.

I think oil is best used minimally. If you have to gob up your car with lube you are just compensating for a bigger problem, perhaps.

'doba


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## Nightshade (Jan 15, 2006)

> I have read this before, but I have a difficult time beliving it


Manning, I leaned towards the soft side of Mechanical Engineering (e.g. heat transfer and thermal dynamics) back in the day and actually have had this discussion with a couple people deeply involved in NASCAR and NHRA a few years back. One at a local track in Batesville, AR. a year ago and another back in '96, of all places, at Sturgis SD (Prudhomme is a big Harley fan).

When we discussed the oil they use they both mentioned the same thing. One of the things about synthetics, they'll run towards heat. All oils will eventually do that, but the synthetics are a bit more efficient at it. The one thing for us to remember is that it will take a greater delta in temp to get it to do that.

Will it run up hill? Well, I've seen something similar happen in a physics lab study, but you also have to overcome coefficient of friction. That's not likley to happen in our situation though. :thumbsup: Good question though!

Mike/Nightshade :wave:


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## Manning (Mar 2, 2004)

I hate to keep beating a dead horse here.......

Are we confusing capillary action with "run towards heat"? Maybe that synthetics contain no paraffins, are more stable under various temps, or somthing.... I have a book "High Performance Fuels and Fluids" by Hartman (I think...) and it never mentions this magical ability of synthetic oil to "run" towards heat......

I'm a ME also, raced NHRA Stock Eliminator for several years before forced to sell everything. (won a divisional event). Never hung out with Prudomme though.... :thumbsup: 

I keep getting the scene from the movie "The Thing" where the blood on the floor is running away from the hot wire (or whatever that was).


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## Nightshade (Jan 15, 2006)

Hehe,

This horse isn't dead until AMX brings up chinese power supplies!  Sorry AMX, I had to say that.

Manning, I agree with you that it doesn't _run_ like the blood on Carpenter's The Thing (good movie, I thought). Bad choice of words on my part. 

And yes, I mean capillary action and the tension of the oil/surface pressure of the solid it is on. The lab study I mentioned was similar to that of Dupre's and Quincke.

Again, I don't think this could happen with slot cars.

Cool that you were in NHRA. Did you ever go to Topeka? Nothing like the taste of top fuel when you're walking around in the pits! :thumbsup: 

Mike


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## WesJY (Mar 4, 2004)

Thanks guys for the info. last friday i did use three in one oil and i dont use much just on specific areas and all the cars ran good. The reason why i asked cuz i was tired of wearing out so many chassis. so far i worn out at least 10 (but not sure cuz they are over 5 years old from racing hard) - even with oil but i must have overdid it. So this time i ll use my common sense and put little oil and run them. 

Everytime I race with friends i always lose and sometimes i lose on purpose to let them win unless they are getting better then i will compete with them. but for real i do lose most of the time!! LOL. its dont matter to me as long we all have fun. 

Now i noticed that all my friends and my family dont really care about lapcounters.. we have this make up rules that we have been using it - it goes like this we have 4 players and when you crash you are out til two cars left then go 5 laps whoever gets 5 laps first wins or your challenger crash first its kind of fun.. of course there is a loophole go real slow and you will always win LOL. anyone have a make up rules on racing? 

Wes


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## RacerDave (Mar 28, 2006)

I use Thunder Oil. Works fine for me. Its similar to the old red Aurora stuff. I have also used 3-in-1 oil and that was ok. I agree with the earlier posters about using oil sparingly. Dave.


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## AMX (Nov 1, 2005)

Early syntheic oils ran away from heat. They gained a very bad reputation for this fact alone and it took many years even after the polymers were reformulated and the problem was cured for the publics confidence to be won.

This is common knowledge. Most people, especially engineers, should know this. Like the fact that some oils polymers breakdown (or are actually crushed and broken) in gear mesh situations. Or like the fact that the hottest part of a slotcar is the brushes and the armature core.

So, now that we all believe that NEW synthetic oils actually do run towards heat, and the hottest part of a slotcar is the electrics, why would you want to use this stuff for this purpose? Cause someone recomended it on his website?

Also the fact that there are serveral aggressive additives in motor oil that will harm polyethylenes and other flexible plastics over time may be another good reason. Look at old plastic funnels- when new they twist all over the place...let them age and sit with oil contact and the become brittle.

LD Thomas has an oil called H:Oyl that has no additives, has the polymers like the early syns that didn't wick towards heat, has a really strong film strength in a very light oil and seems to be the only sensible choice for a slotcar.

It has been tested by loading the contact points and brushes with it and it doesn't seem to burn up electricals or slow the cars down even if it were to get on the com plate.

Regular oil will burn onto the hot brushes and blacken the area. Just like it would burn onto anything else that hot. And don't try and say the parts in slotcars don't get hot.

Nightshade:

Did you see my pictures of my AMERICAN lab grade power supplies in the other thread?

Wanna see my AMERICAN Lab Gauss meters and other electronic test equipment relative to slotcar work like digital heat probes and oil film strength testers?


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## Nightshade (Jan 15, 2006)

No thanks.  

Mike/Nightshade


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## AMX (Nov 1, 2005)

comeon...ya know ya do


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

I'll bet you could use olive oil for lubricating your armature bearings and 100% Grade A American butter for lubing your gears and these cheap little toys would be as happy as a clam. A talented driver will always toast, or should I say saute like a buttery little confection, a less talented driver regardless of who has the advanced engineering degree. 

If you try to apply too much engineering to slot car racing you're sort of missing the point of why we do it. Slot car racing is just plain and simple fun using 1930s state of the art technology. It's like drinking a beer, you don't have to think much about it, you just do it. I'd rather be at the track yucking it up and creating ozone instead of staying at home working through some especially challenging differential equations, you know, just for the sheer fun of it.


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## ParkRNDL (Mar 20, 2002)

nicely stated


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## AMX (Nov 1, 2005)

It just makes sense to do things right regardless of if you race or just run cars around a track. Why would you put an oil on a car that may be worth something in the future that may harm it?

Why would you use a far less appropriate oil for an application when the correct ones arout there? Especially in this day and age of easily sought out information.

If you were to use the oils discussed here in other electro mechanical applications like pinball machines, servos or robotics you would have a big loss on your hands. There are companies that do nothing but formulate the correct lubricants for the correct application. They don't do it because it is pointless.

By the same logic as posted above I guess you could open your car door by breaking the window with a hammer if you really wanted to.....


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

Nobody disputes using the right tool for the job or applying the right technology where it's most appropriate and cost effective. If something is truly mission critical then you have to raise the bar and demand parts and products that meet much higher standards. But slot cars are all about having fun. The only thing that's mission critical with slot cars is having fun and doing all you can to help your fellow racers have fun too. You shouldn't have to think too hard about it, and if you are, then maybe you're taking it too serious. 

Here's my philosophy on problem solving:

1) Simple solutions to simple problems should be expected. 

2) Complex solutions to complex problems should be grudgingly accepted as the cost of doing business.

3) Simple solutions to complex problems should be commended and rewarded.

4) Complex solutions to simple problems should get the problem solver's butt fired.


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## Manning (Mar 2, 2004)

I go on vacation for a few days, and this thread is still going.... :thumbsup: 

Oils..... AMX, do you have a link to any "white papers" on this subject? I'd really appreciate it. Everything I find when googling this subject sounds like a Mobil 1 or Castrol commercial. 



OT..... Nightshade....Heartland Park Topeka.... Yep, made many laps down that track. '94 Sportsman points series winner, Won the Super Chevy bracket race in '95, Won NHRA divisional in Stock '03, missed making the Stock final (by 0.002, argh!) at the NHRA National later that same month. Haven't raced since my twins were born...... Sold everything. Watching the crowd is fun when the Fuel dudes are warming up. Lots of 'tough guys' have hands in their pockets.....until the first good whap of the throttle... Then they nearly smash their heads getting hands to the ears... Pretty funny.


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## AMX (Nov 1, 2005)

Yes the problem with trying to do internet research on this is the keywords will trigger AMSOIL seller pages. :hat: 

You will need to dig deeper if you really want to know. How I came by this information is from a compilation of several sources. I myself just WANTED to just use Mobil 1 for slotcars both from my experience with it in racing and because Gregg Braun said he used it on his website. :drunk: 

Well after I did I wasn't very happy. I posted a few posts on some bulletin boards and people told me it was junk for the application so I stopped using it. They mentioned it would wick towards heat, which it does, and not to use it. I should have known this myself from being an engine builer, former CAFE and drag racer and all around fairly sharp person on all things mechanical, but at first I did not put it together. 

Then L.D. Thomas found the thread and chimed in. At that point I mentioned to him that it was strange that in the early days of Mobil 1 the engineers had a problem with it wanting to RUN AWAY FROM HEAT. I knew this because of my Chem E and ME father who worked for Mobil in the 60s.

He replied that it was funny that I should mention this because in his research for making the H:Oyl product he spoke with a lady who was instrumental in the early Mobil 1 research and that was all he was going to say on the subject.

Obviously there is something to this. It is not folklore, or wives tales or scuttlebut. I knew that early syns sucked and cost engines because the were chased away by heat AND I knew that new syns were the shit for their ability to eat heat alive and have a very high flash point. I own several 10,000 RPM V-8s and a few 15,000 RPM + bike motors. They live on nothing more than luck and the film strength of synthetic lubricants.

So.......aside from the fact that slotcar armature lubrication is a F'ed up screwy application for ANY oil, and that grease is probably a better substance for the task, the fact still remains that a light weight oil that won't run to the hot parts of the motor does exist and it is called H:Oyl. Grease would rob more RPMs, and would eventually break down into oils and run to the heat, but would work better all around if performance wasn't a concern. The light H:Oyl gives all the lubrication needed even when it is almost gone, won't burn on the com plate and seems to last longer than any other oil including RC oil and Model RR oil.

There is a listing of over 60 applications for electric motor oil on NYE Lubricants page. Each one is different. I am sure you could weed through them and find another suitable lubricant, and maybe this is what LD did.

But those 60 don't exist just for the hell of it. They are purpose specific.

Furtheremore, you can oil everything else on a slot car with whatever oil you want and it probably won't matter...I am talking about oiling points in close proximity to the motor heat (incase you thought that I meant that oils were going to rush from the axles to the motor, and if you did you are silly) :freak: 


SOOOOO...... If you just want to have fun with your cars, don't ever try and even work on them. Just open the box, plug in a wall wart and run them like you did when you were 7. It worked fine then, it will work fine now. When they stop just consider them broken.


But is seems like you guys want to perfect these cars enough to nit pick axel hole diameters, spring tensions, historical accuracy blah, blah, blah, but when someone mentions some solid facts about stuff, none of the nit picking matters, it is all back to it is just for fun again and the technical stuff is too much to think about. Then if that is the case delete 80% of the threads on these boards because they don't matter one bit either.


There ya go...just trying to help again.


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## AMX (Nov 1, 2005)

Oh and one more thing....most motor oils have a "cling" property that is actually cause by a polar attraction to metals believe it of not. It is formulated into the oils to allow them to stay on the metal friction surfaces longer to absorb heat and reduce friction.

There may be something to this when it comes to use near an electric motor...

This is stretching it a bit beyond the heat attraction of DINO oils compared to SYNS, but the fact still remains that it exists.

there is NO WRITTEN info on this RELATIVE to slotcars so don't ask for white papers on it. :wave:


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## AMX (Nov 1, 2005)

> Nobody disputes using the right tool for the job or applying the right technology where it's most appropriate and cost effective.


LD thomas' H:Oyl costs 10 bucks.

Cheap. and correct.


The Lab power supplies I mentioned before are within the price range of the crap ones....Hell CONTROLLERS cost is what you should be yelling about.


Point?


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## sethndaddy (Dec 4, 2004)

WOW, I use the little needle tip oilers they sell at every hobby shop, and a little toothpaste on the gears, never needed anything more, if I have a dog that can't make it on those two "creations" it becomes a shelf queen chassis.
But I am impressed with all the research you put into it.


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## Nightshade (Jan 15, 2006)

Manning, I was there in '95! I had to have seen you race!....cool.

AfxToo, would that be extra virgin olive oil?  

Last thing I'll say about this one...KY jelly. It runs towards heat too...nudge, nudge. Wink, wink. Say no more, say no more. :thumbsup:


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

I'm holding out for the oft rumored cheap Chinese knockoff of H:Oyl that is supposed to hit the streets sometime near the end of the Year of the Dog. Insider information from some guy that's a friend of a guy whose sister I used to know, but only as a friend because I didn't want to risk being seen in public with her or her mother, called the Korean distributor of the envelopes used to ship the raw material into Mexico and she or he has told me that it's a secret formulation of musk oil from a Chia Ram, bacon grease, and tequila. Supposedly, leading Korean scientist Hwang Woo-suk has confirmed that it's ... quote, "good for 2 tenths on a BuckTrax Bonzai," unquote. Very exciting stuff.

Next up, cold fusion mods to make your Fray cars faster. Good for 2 tenths, I hear.


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## Slott V (Feb 3, 2005)

...and to think the subject of this topic was "a stupid question"?


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## AMX (Nov 1, 2005)

> I'm holding out for the oft rumored cheap Chinese knockoff of H:Oyl that is supposed to hit the streets sometime near the end of the Year of the Dog..........



Weren't no stupid answers were there.....


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## Manning (Mar 2, 2004)

Holy cow does Nye have a ton of info on their site.....

Without trying at all, I found an article titled "Non-spreading oils, the phenomenon of oil creep"......... 

Thanks for the hint, AMX.....


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

What can I say, I just can help but make light of yet another very simple question that ends up getting blown up into self-aggrandizing grandstanding that's way beyond the scope of what 99% of the thread readers care about. Throwing in 
a few cuss words and oneupmanship just adds to the blatant inappropriateness of the dialog. We're talking about simple, inexpensive toys designed for 8+ year olds, not 15,000+ rpm bike motors or 1200 HP dragsters. What's it going to come to next, posting our resumes and the resumes and financial credentials of our closest living relatives? 

Slot cars are about having fun, and cheap fun at that. Nobody should ever feel intimidated by a toy car, it's a hobby that must be accessible to anyone, even those of us who don't have NHRA experience or Don Prudhomme on speed dial. Anyone can do well. Put all your fancy credentials up against some 15 year old kid who really knows how to drive a slot car, like some of the young guns currently in HOPRA, and see how many laps the parchment buys you out there on the track.


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## AMX (Nov 1, 2005)

Then let me ask you this....

Why in the hell do you think ANY brand of purpose specific oil exists if it isn't Trinity RC oil, or Thomas H:Oyl....

All these people are just wasting your time huh?



> Put all your fancy credentials up against some 15 year old kid who really knows how to drive a slot car, like some of the young guns currently in HOPRA, and see how many laps the parchment buys you out there on the track.


Hey, I bet they are all using H:Oyl anyway ! From what I hear all the experts are. Everything I read about big wins in big divisions mentions H;Oyl.

You are kinda proving my point for me.


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## AMX (Nov 1, 2005)

> Holy cow does Nye have a ton of info on their site.....


Yes NYE is just one company that makes aerospace grade through automotive grade through food grade lubricants. I am sure they have nothing for hobby purposes cause there is just no money in it (and the reasons for this should be obvious)

Other big oil companies have similar products. PetroLube is another one.

If you were to call one of these places up if an engineer had the time I am sure they could point you in the right direction if you care.

I know I have spent quite a bit of time speaking with the head of the lab at Royal Purple. They won't take the time to provide a full education on the topic, but if you can speak to them with a reasonable amount of background knowledge evident in your conversation they will take the time to answer your questions. BTW he is a big muscle car head and like to talk about them as well.


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## Nightshade (Jan 15, 2006)

AfxToo,

Hehe....I'm too scared to go up against those young guns you're talking about. I'd probably put my car on the track backwards!  

I agree, enjoy the hobby and don't sweat the other stuff. The only thing you need is a desire to have fun.

Btw, I don't have Prudhomme on speed dial. But I _DO_ have Pizza Hut on speed dial! 

Oh...and I did sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night. :wave:


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## vaBcHRog (Feb 19, 2003)

AfxToo said:
 

> I.
> 
> If you try to apply too much engineering to slot car racing you're sort of missing the point of why we do it. Slot car racing is just plain and simple fun using 1930s state of the art technology.


Agreed its fun. However what is fun is like the old saying different strokes for different folks. For some people enginnering is a blast. Myself I love to learn and anytime anyone can teach me why something works I am having fun. I spent over 20 years working on Navy Fighter Jets electronics and I always wanted to know why something happend and 99.9% of the time there was a very logical explanation but then that 1% was what we use to call FM  That why I love TJETS so. Yo normally know what what and why something works but then there is that 1% and they can be some of the sweetest TJETS. It must of been all the good carma when Aurora made it 

Roger Corrie


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

I know exactly where you're coming from Roger. But engineering demystifies and debunks FM/PFM folklore. If that 1% could not be explained with sound engineering principles those multi-million dollar avionics systems would be totally useless. There is no magic in engineering.

But I contend that there is magic in slot cars! It's the magic of being able to recreate the simple and intense pleasure of racing and competition on a tabletop sized raceway. That's magic, not engineering.


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## T-jetjim (Sep 12, 2005)

Not sure what I can add to this thread. I had over 20 years in food service and a lot of experience with oils, from deep fat fryers to AFX Too's Olive Oil. We did oil a 50 gallon mixer with vegetable oil when it squeaked back when I worked in a pizza joint, but it didn't hit very high RPM's.
I like good old MM red oil. My only negative is you can't get it to the arm/pinion shaft or the drive gear shaft without overoiling. I end up using it on the arm hole and the crown gear, everywhere else, I use a parma needle oiler.
Jim


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