# to go brushless or not to go brushless? that is the question



## DARKSCOPE001 (Jun 14, 2006)

Allright guys hear goes. I was at my local track today and I was talking to my hobby shop owner about making me a deal if I buy a bunch of stockers off him for the upcoming season. then someone said "just go brushless!" then about 5 different racers aggreed with that voice. so then I asked If I got the new novack brushless motor that Is the equivelent of a stock motor If I could race it with the stock guys. so my shop owner said that would be perfectly fine. and that he would allow me to do so. so now my question is does anyone know how long it will be (or if they ever do) till roar makes brushless legal? also does anyone think this is a good idea. cuz I love wrenching on brushed motors and building them up and making them go as fast as I can. but this would be great cuz I could practice with my race motor and have next to no drawback also I would basicly never have to rebuild motors (one less thing to wory about on race day!) but like I said I love tinkering with bruhed motors. I just dont know what to do! so any advice/oppinions would be much apreceated!


THANKS
Sean Scott


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## CDW35 (Jan 17, 2006)

Sean, funny how this came up, I was running at the world of hobbies today and The same subject came up. I myself love the fact of having to think about building a motor and making it fast, I belive that brushless really takes alot of the work out of it and really that doesnt seem fun TO ME, (now some people hate building motors) I seen a brushless 12th scale "stock" today at TWOH and the motor didnt impress me (maybe he had it geared wrong) but as of right now I do not see myself running brushless anytime soon
Just my 0.2 Cents,
CDW


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## DARKSCOPE001 (Jun 14, 2006)

lol cdw this is gona scare you. at my local race track platinum hobbies some guy was racing 12 scale stock with a brushless and It worked just fine! but the only reason I wanted to go brushess its im finding it harder and harder to find time to rebuild motors in between school and hanging out with freinds and family and trying to find a job! so I was thinking about getting one. also the other reason I wanted one is because it would save me money in the long run. I think in one year of racing I think It would have me saving money because of motors and brushess but I dont know because I havent done the math yet. 

THANKS
Sean Scott


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## mbeach2k (Sep 14, 2004)

it will save you a lot of time and money, and you can practice with your race motor.
the motor perfomance is always the same!!!!!!!!
i switched three years ago and i will never run brushed again


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## hankster (Jan 1, 1998)

Brushless is currently ROAR legal in OnRoad and OffRoad Mod classes. At this time there are no ROAR "stock" brushless classes.


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## DARKSCOPE001 (Jun 14, 2006)

hmmm well now I suppose i will be swtiching the topic of this thread to... What is the best brushless system I have looked at them boath and I like the look of the sphere and the gtb. then I know tekin is coming out with a 10th scale brushless system soon so I was just wondering what to get? I am so confused!


THANKS
Sean Scott


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## mbeach2k (Sep 14, 2004)

in my opinion, novak
1. novak customer support and warranty, second too none
2. novak gtb has a lot fewer problems than the lrp
3. gtb performance in the race world is better than the lrp


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## SuperXRAY (Jul 10, 2002)

Well, mbeach2k, do you even know what you are talking about?



> in my opinion, novak
> 1. novak customer support and warranty, second too none


You are completely and absolutely incorrect. LRP warrants their products for a lifetime. LRP's support is equal to Novak's IMHO. You can't provide proof of your opinion about their support, it's your opinion. However, their warranty is NOT lifetime, like LRP's, so you're just flat-out wrong.



> 2. novak gtb has a lot fewer problems than the lrp


Again, you provide no support. You could be skewed by things that you know nothing about from other users, like hooking a speedo up incorrectly, etc. In this area (geographically), LRP has far less problems than Novak, so go figure.



> 3. gtb performance in the race world greter than the lrp


Check your facts. Novak is an American marketed product, unlike the vastly larger base of racing that LRP and Keyence and others cater to overseas. Fact is, GTB is more difficult to setup and switch between modes (brushed/brushless), and LRP and Keyence far surpass wins overseas than Novak sees here. Your statements are very opinionated and misleading to people, please keep it factual and it will benefit everyone.


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## mbeach2k (Sep 14, 2004)

well mitch
yes i do, and if you knew how to read you would know that!
the first sentance is " in my opinion" and my opinon does not have to be proven to anyone!!!!!!!!!!
i am speaking of my experience and the experiences of those i race with and your personal attacks " flaming" is not constuctive to anyone!!!!!!!!!!


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## SuperXRAY (Jul 10, 2002)

mbeach2k,

I won't turn this into an argument, but two of your statements are not opinion, regardless of 'in my opinion'. You can't claim factual information, like you have, with it being wrong and unsupported. LRP's warranty is factually better than Novak's, there is no disputing that. Your third statement is also a factual-based statement. LRP has a better record in the 'race world' than Novak does, so your opinion cannot be that Novak has better performance in the 'race world' than LRP, it's really quite simple. If you'd like to see the results, follow the World's competitions and the bigger races overseas, instead of limiting it to just what happens here in the U.S.

It is true that your second statement is an opinion, so I simply pointed out that your opinion could be skewed for the reasons I posted. I'm not flaming anyone, especially you. If you took it that way, then perhaps rephrase your statements so they are not written as factual information that can be disproven.  Cheers!

Something like:

"in my opinion, novak"

1. Novak has shown myself and those I race with better customer support than LRP. (you can't say the warranty is better, because it simply IS NOT).

2. We've experienced a lot fewer problems with the GTB as compared to the LRP.

3. Were I race at, the GTB has a better track record than the LRP.

Even those statements can be disassembled and perhaps proven wrong, but they are more of an opinion than saying something is true, when in actuality it is not, regardless of how you see it. Nowhere in my post is a personal attack, as I never questioned or remarked on your character or otherwise. I simply do not know you, so I promise you I would never personally attack you on these forums. I NEVER called you an idiot, or stupid, or anything, just trying to keep this forum fact-based, helping everyone out that races.


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## Z-Main Loser (Nov 17, 2004)

I'd have to agree with Beach. Novak does only have a 120 day warranty but if anything goes bad in that time that is not the fault of the customer they will replace it for free and the turn around is only a week regardless if it is warranty work or not. I've never dealt with LRP but have had many who have say that it took months to get anything back from them. The GTB has proven itself to be a winning speedo worldwide. I do think the LRP is just as good performance wise but I think the GTB setup is easier and quicker. Many people with the LRP have had problems with getting the correct settings with it. I think before anyone starts flamming anyone, let them have their opinions based on their experience. By the way Sean, if you are at Platinum next saturday I might see you there with my GTB.


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## Kirk (Aug 10, 2006)

The Team Losi website says the Novak SS4300 brushless motor is ROAR approved but for what classes I don't know. Don't know if the ESC's are regulated and if so how the Novaks (and others) fit in. I am just a novice "basher" at best and I've always wanted to run gas for the power and run time. Basically, if you've got fuel you're runnin whereas it's not that way with electric. Given my situation though, electric is by far my best option. Thru reading and such though it is obvious that electric is the way of the future, not just in r/c but in technology in general (look at all the things these days that are cordless). Given that, why not get the best proven technology avaliable (provided it's affordable) in the forum of the future which seems to be electric? Brushless motors seem to be the newest advance and we are seeing battery ratings in the 4200's now. It may not happen in our r/c lifetimes but I bet in 20 yrs you'd be hard pressed to find a gas or nitro r/c vehicle. As far as tinkering, alot of guys like to tinker. They find it fun and interesting. I personaly enjoy it to a small extent but generally for me, less tinkering = more fun. I have been to organized races (both cars and boats) and unorganized get togethers of 'serious' r/c-ers and without exageration in a hour's time they spend 45 mins tinkerin' and maybe 15 actually driving. That's not to mention the hours they spend in their garage in the evenings messin' around! I perfer to run for 45, tinker for 15 and then pack up and go about my day! Sorry for being so long winded but the jist is this. If you're thinking of getting into r/c or you already run electric, go for the new technology. It's alot less maintenance and the performance is really improving. If you already run gas or nitro you probablly wont want to switch and that is very understandable. However, you might want to consider it for the future because I firmly believe that's where the sport is heading.


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## SuperXRAY (Jul 10, 2002)

There are two sides to the hobby and brushless question. Personally, I like building motors, as it is part of the hobby and should remain as such. However, brushless levels the playing field, eliminating the whole 'his motor is faster than mine' concept that plagues so many racers. Frankly, that's their right, to have a faster motor because they either have more experience or have the resources to get such. This is the same situation as ALL racing industries. There are teams in NASCAR that are far ahead of others because of financial backing and experience, and they deserve to be there. If NASCAR implemented a motor rule, where every team could only use this brand X of motor, that would put thousands of people out of a job.

Going brushless sure seems like an extreme. I see no reason to completely change everything to brushless. Most of the tracks cater to both classes now days, so why not just buy some brushless stuff and you can run it if you feel like it. Most things in life are not better because they are simpler to operate. 

As with Novak...my personal downfalls are the opposite of what people on this thread have posted. I've never had to even send an LRP back, but those that I have sent for people never took a month to get returned. The ones that I have sent back to Novak usually were followed by a nasty letter from Novak claiming things that never occurred caused damage to the speed control.

This question of going brushless or not is very loaded and has been repeated many times on this forum. Each brand has their own supporters and non-supporters, so you will never get a definitive answer. You should make a decision based on what you want, not what someone else tells you; that's just hearsay. As for ROAR approval, go to the http://www.roarracing.com website to find what is approved or not, as it is the only official ROAR information on the internet. Also, just because it says that the Novak SS4300 is ROAR approved doesn't mean you have to use a Novak speed control.


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## IndyRC_Racer (Oct 11, 2004)

As to the issue of brushless or not, everyone has an opinion. However, Team Losi is going to release a RTR version of the XXX-S that comes with a brushless system. This might make the jump into onroad for a beginner a bit easier. They already have a XXX-T version that comes with a brushless system.

If you talk to enough racers you are going to hear "horror stories" about poor support from Novak, LRP, Futaba, etc. My personal experience is that sometimes racers expect components to be fool-proof which just isn't the case. The problem is the disgruntled customers make the most noise - and tend to post their complaints. My experience with LRP & Novak is that when I followed the recommended usage instructions I've gotten great performance from both products. I have also sent units back to both with good customer support as well.

As far as which manufacturer to go with, I'd say you'd be okay with Novak or LRP. I like the Tekin G-11, but I would wait a bit before buying their 1st brushless 1/10 system. I would recommend going with a race level speed controls as they seem to have the best performance at this time. The main difference between the LRP & NOvak at this time is the size and positioning of the wires. How and where you are going to mount the speedo in the car may do more to determining which company has the best product. Price might make a difference as well, as cheaper is always better for the pocket book. One final deciding factor could also be what other people are running locally. It is always easier to get help when other people have the same equipment.


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## FishRC (Sep 28, 2001)

The real question is what is your budget and what do you want to run. If you’re running ROAR rules, brushless is a mod class only setup. Local rules can change that but you have to check with the local track to find out. As for the fast guys spending more and going faster, in 20 years of racing the true fast guys will run most drivers down with a box stock motor and maybe even a stock 27 turn. Driving is far more often the deciding factor than a hot motor. Very few drivers have the skill to use what brushed motors will do right out of the box effectively.

For myself brushless was a must. Cost and track time made it an easy call for me. This year I spent less on motors even when considering I had to buy the new system. I spent more time on the track in actual race condition then I ever have. I also was able to spend time on my setups for more than ever. Yet with all that, I had more time to gab and send with other racers than I ever did also. For myself, brushless was a great match to my racing. The extra track time alone for me was wonderful as that time helped my driving.

The natural question though is, what everyone else running at your track. Having others that can help out and compare setups is far easier than going it alone. The two big systems, Novak and LRP have there pluses and minuses. Ask a fellow racer to try there’s a lap or two and see what you think.


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## brian0525 (Jan 17, 2005)

I think if your track said you can run the 13.5 against everyone else running a brushed stock motor you wouldn't be doing it long cause after you kicked there but about 3 weeks the other racers would put a stop to that! lol


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## DARKSCOPE001 (Jun 14, 2006)

lol. thats funny. well I dont know how much back straight speed realy matters in road corse because I have seen many a time. a driver that absolutely rips down the back straight only to lose all that advantage he worked up off in a mater of seconds when entering into the in-field. so I realy dont think that top speed has anything to do with it. besides Im pretty shure that novak got it right and that the performance of the 13.5 is darn close to that of a stock motor. 


THANKS
Sean Scott


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## JSJ Racing (May 18, 2004)

After running the 13.5 this past weekend on a banked concrete oval. The 13.5 is faster than a stock motor. Track record for a stock motor is 49/4:02.45. I ran a 13.5 in 50/4:01.78. Should be able to run a fast 51 once the fast guys at the track start running them. The 21 Turn is a 52/4:02.70.

I am using a LRP speedo and have not had any problems. Knock on wood. A few at the track run NOVAK's. I would buy what you are comfortable with. I would buy either one.


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## DARKSCOPE001 (Jun 14, 2006)

so should I take the plunge? and go brushless? because in one year the system will be payed off. so I think it would be a good purchess. and even if roar doesent ok the system ill have it for later. when I move up into mod or just for a good fun around system. and even if roar never ok's it my track director still said I could run it in stock tc. and then I can just keep my current esc for another class. Im looking into 12th scale. so I realy dont see any drawbacks. but hey what do I know!


THANKS
Sean Scott


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## LittleR/CGuy (Apr 8, 2006)

like some of these other guys said. go with somthing people are runnig at your track. if you buy the novak and everyone at the track has LRP, its gonna suck wen you've got a problem at a big race and no one has that speed control so they dont know wat to do( im sure that wouldnt happen but who knows?). me personaly....i would go with brushless. right now i cant afford it but if i could i would get it like that! as long as you can aforrd it....i'd say go brushless!


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## DynoMoHum (Sep 25, 2001)

I loved tinkering with motors... however, the more I learned, the more I realized that just to keep brushed motor in top shape required alot of work, and money... From the first time I ran a BL motor I never looked back... 

In our area a couple people got BL motors... a couple more... and soon it was the biggest class of all in oval pan cars... The only guys that did not imediately switch over completely are guys that regularly race in ohter areas and/or at other events where bushed motors are the norm... 

I don't think I ever heard one person who went to brushless who didn't really like it ALOT...


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## jenzorace (Dec 23, 2005)

Brushless is the way to go. Ive been racing pancars with brushless. It gives you more time to BS. And work on your car. Running brushed motors, i didnt have time to pee in between races. As for speedos.. I ran dirt oval all summer, and ran the gtb speedo with all of there motors. Not 1 problem.


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## DARKSCOPE001 (Jun 14, 2006)

allright guys It looks like Im gona get a brushless system. but the problem is that I want a 13.5 and a gtb. whell as many of you know they dont offer the gtb with the 13.5 so I have two options. one: buy the gtb with a brushless motor combo and buy the 13.5 ontop of all that. resulting in a price of about 300 dolars. option 2: buy the gtb by its self and then get the 13.5 ontop of it. little cheaper but not by much only by about 50 bucks but alos I will pry be buying this thu tower and since its over 200 dolars I will get a 25 dolar discount. so realy if I get just the gtb and the 13.5 it will be the same price as if I got it somwhere else and dident know about the tower discount. who knows maby Ill get lucky and before x-mass novak will realease a 13.5 with the gtb. that should have been the first move I would have made if i was incharge. but I e-mailed them and they said it wasant in the works at this time. (kinda dumb hu???)


THANKS
Sean Scott


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## Kirk (Aug 10, 2006)

I hate to sound totally ignorant but what is a gtb?


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## brian0525 (Jan 17, 2005)

Speed Control


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## DARKSCOPE001 (Jun 14, 2006)

not only is it a speed controle but it is one heck of a speed controle. not only will it do brushless but it will also do brushed motors of any turn. but this does come at a price. the esc is larger than the gtx or the gt7 and it is heavyer because it is a larger esc and it has an extra 2 wires. (battery and sensor wires) 

HOPE THIS HELPS
Sean Scott


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## IndyRC_Racer (Oct 11, 2004)

The 2 major choices for brushless speed controls right now are LRP and Novak. 

Novak has a 3 options - the HV system for monster trucks (E-maxx) and the Super Sport (SS) and GTB for everything else. The SS & GTB with both do brushless/brushed motors. The (SS) has been know to have some thermaling issue when used with the faster brushless motors but should handle a 4300. The GTB is the best brushless Novak has to offer right now. The only negative with the GTB is the size of the heat sink/fan/and capacitor. Other than that is has a very similar foot print to the LRP Sphere.

As far as LRP, the only speedcontrol that I'm familiar with is the Sphere Competetion. It seems to be the choice of a lot of racers due to its size. It has a smaller heat sink and no cooling fan from the factory. The only issue that I'm aware of with the Sphere Competition is not setting the mode properly for 4-cell racing. By default the sphere is set for Lipo batteries. You just have to make sure you follow the instructions when setting up the LRP.

For more info on brushless check out these sites.
Novak: http://www.teamnovak.com
LRP/Associated: http://www.teamassociated.com or http://www.rc10.com
Tekin: http://www.teamtekin.com (1/10 brushless coming soon - 1/18 brushless available)
Castle Creations: http://www.castlecreations.com/ (makers of the Mamba line of brushless systems)

Remember, if you are going to race make sure to find out if the system you are going to buy is legal for the track/class you will be racing in.


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## Kirk (Aug 10, 2006)

Well ok, what I'm trying to find out is which SS is in the TeamLosi RTR 1:10 touring car? TH has two Novak SS's listed in their parts. The first is LXJXT0 (Novak #1705) which is labeled as "Novak Super Sport Plus Brushless/Brush Programmable ESC". The second is LXFPW2 (Novak #3205, which also says it's discontinued) which is labeled as "Novak Super Sport Brushless ESC". TeamLosi's page doesn't seem to specify which one it is. Does anyone know? I suppose it doesn't matter that much because both say they can handle 7 cells which is what I really wanted to know but it still would be nice to know.


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## hankster (Jan 1, 1998)

The brushless only SS from Novak has been discountined for quite some time so I would guess the newer brushless/brushed version is the one they are using.


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## LittleR/CGuy (Apr 8, 2006)

Kirk said:


> Well ok, what I'm trying to find out is which SS is in the TeamLosi RTR 1:10 touring car? TH has two Novak SS's listed in their parts. The first is LXJXT0 (Novak #1705) which is labeled as "Novak Super Sport Plus Brushless/Brush Programmable ESC". The second is LXFPW2 (Novak #3205, which also says it's discontinued) which is labeled as "Novak Super Sport Brushless ESC". TeamLosi's page doesn't seem to specify which one it is. Does anyone know? I suppose it doesn't matter that much because both say they can handle 7 cells which is what I really wanted to know but it still would be nice to know.


High-performance Novak SS4300 Sensored Brushless Motor
Novak Super Sport 10.5 Brushless Speed Control with reverse


according to teamlosi.com, this is wat is in the rtr.


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## RPM (Dec 20, 2004)

jenzorace said:


> Brushless is the way to go. Ive been racing pancars with brushless. It gives you more time to BS. And work on your car. Running brushed motors, i didnt have time to pee in between races. As for speedos.. I ran dirt oval all summer, and ran the gtb speedo with all of there motors. Not 1 problem.


You got the RIGHT!!

I have time to party!! :thumbsup:


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