# Decaling the refit with aztec???



## marc111 (Nov 10, 2005)

I really want to get my TMP Refit done right. I am especially trying to get the correct pearlesent aztec effect. Trying to learn from the experts, I have read every thread I can find and have concluded that I should do the aztec pattern one of two ways.
1) Base coat flat white
4 or 5 level masking
use 4 colors of the pearlescent paints from the taxidermy.com site.
or
2) Base coat of flat white
4 or 5 level masking
mix pearlescent powders into future 
spray on the translucent future layers with the masks.

*OK MY QUESTIONs:* Given this approach, how should I add the decals so that I do not get silvering and an obvious decaled look while keeping the pearlescent effects??

Will one of the above options work better than the other with regards to the decal question??

Thanks for the help,
Mark


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## davecfprez (Dec 21, 2005)

if you're looking to decal the whole thing just search feeBay... there you'll find a set -- from stripes to the aztec pattern...

i know this isn't paint help, but i just saw the auction after reading your post

dave


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## Cougar184 (Jan 8, 2002)

after you choose you method what you are going to want to do is give a nice gloss coat in between each color and after each gloss coat and before you start in on the next color wet sand the hull with some 2000+ G sandpaper. when you are done you should have a nice smooth glossy finish for those decals. just my 2 cents


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

Any ETA on your 5 part/color masking templates for the Refit, Thomas?

Heck, no need to make them high-tact vinyl, low-tact frisket might even be better as long as they stick.


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## m5multitronic (May 27, 2005)

Hey, Dave!

I searched on evil-bay for the 1/350 refit decals you spoke of, and didn't find them. Could you provide a little more info on where they are?

Thanks, man!


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## Cougar184 (Jan 8, 2002)

heres that website with the aztec decals
http://zodiac-miniatures.com/home.htm


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## mechinyun (Feb 23, 2004)

These are good questions he brings up. I am at the same stage, trying to decide between his exact two options on the aztec pearlization.

My "gut" feeling is to use the future with the pearl powders over a base flat coat. I am just wondering which powders are the most "fine". IE, when mixed into the future the texture of the powders doesnt show up, Im looking for the smallest size powder grains is the best way I can put it.



Experts Please step UP!


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## davecfprez (Dec 21, 2005)

m5multitronic said:


> Hey, Dave!
> 
> I searched on evil-bay for the 1/350 refit decals you spoke of, and didn't find them. Could you provide a little more info on where they are?
> 
> Thanks, man!


right here --

http://tinyurl.com/bmqam

dave


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## Trekfreak (Mar 26, 2005)

Cougar184 said:


> heres that website with the aztec decals
> http://zodiac-miniatures.com/home.htm


Could they make a grey version for the TMP Refit version?


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## Cougar184 (Jan 8, 2002)

grey?? how bout green. like this


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## marc111 (Nov 10, 2005)

Thanks for the feedback Cougar.

My worry is still what any clear coating before and after decaling may do to the pearlescent effect and whether there is a better way.

Hopefully,
Mark


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## Cougar184 (Jan 8, 2002)

gloss coating is fine with pearlescent paint. the more gloss the deeper the color. if you put a dull coat on however the pearlescent effect will become less appearent


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## marc111 (Nov 10, 2005)

Thanks Cougar. Time to try some experimental panels and make sure I have things down correctly.

Mark


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## frontline (May 4, 2005)

Cougar, those TMP green decals look fantastic. By chance you wouldnt have them in their orignal file size now would ya?


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## Cougar184 (Jan 8, 2002)

yeah if anyones interested in them shoot me an email [email protected]


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## Roguepink (Sep 18, 2003)

I had worked on some full Aztec DECALS, so far only scaled to the ERTL kit. The trick is that they were printed in silver ink, so they had that pearl/metallic sheen. When left in a high gloss finish, they really did the trick. I dullcoated the entire thing and, as expected, the pearlescent effect was highly diminished, but this worked very well for the look of the later movies. When you tilt the saucer to different angles to the light you can still see the Aztec reacting by fading in and out, but it it not nearly as dramatic as when it was a gloss finish.

To answer the original question, always apply decals to a gloss finish. The gloss will not effect the pearlescent paints, and would even enhance them. I STRONGLY SUGGEST that you use Testor's gloss laquer, 1/2 oz bottle, sprayed via a good airbrush. It goes down even, clean, and VERY THIN so you don't glop out any fine details. The laquer is not damaged by setting solutions and solvents for decals. If you are not looking for a showroom supercar finish, you may try topping off the whole thing with a semi-gloss laquer, just to tone it down a bit.

Be careful how many layers of paint you use. On this smaller model, the paint layering will become more apparent than on a studio size model. You may consider going over each paint layer with a 600+ grit paper, very gently, to smooth out any paint ridges left by the mask.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

Just looked at my TMP director's version. Parts of that version looks to be blueish in tint. Not green.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

davecfprez said:


> right here --
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/bmqam
> 
> dave


Seems worth it for $100 bucks(same decals as the ones in the Ebay link).

I spent 4 hours doing just the upper nacelles in Photoshop. The paneling looks a little dark though. 

The guy selling them on the website above says he hasn't tried any decal setting solutions on them. 

He suggest testing spare decals on a sheet of styrene(not for reaction to setting solution though). But he doesn't say there are any decals provided. 

Seems as if the guy is selling these for $100 a pop he could print out a spare sheet or two himself and do any necessary testing before selling them...


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## marc111 (Nov 10, 2005)

Thanks for the input Roguepink. Not having tried anything with this mainy potential layers and masks before I appreciate the advise.

Mark


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## frontline (May 4, 2005)

Cougar,
Thanks for the offer, email is sent.


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## Cougar184 (Jan 8, 2002)

Its Green!


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

My eyes might be playing tricks on me. But that capture seems to be blue-grey too, though much less intense then what's on the TMP dvd.

There's always a chance it was originally green and then changed to blue-grey later when they did the Director's version.

I'm sure Thomas, John P., Phil Broad, Trek Ace or someone else might be able to explain the green some people seem to bring up ocassionally.

There's always the chance I'm looking at something wrong - or more simply that I am just plain wrong! Wouldn't be the first time!


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## Trekfreak (Mar 26, 2005)

Cougar184 said:


> Its Green!


Green? I thougth it was grey. Who knew?


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## mechinyun (Feb 23, 2004)

Its green. But a very pastel green,which under the dark lighting and other effects makes it look to be a light grey. 

But for the TMP it was green, TWOK= green, Search for Spock = green. Once we get the A in part four, its blue from then on. Probert and Olsen (the original painter of the TMP E) has confirmed it.


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## Cougar184 (Jan 8, 2002)

By the way I will have some blue decals made up a little bit later im about 50% done with those and just need to sit down to finish the rest. ill let everyone know when they are ready.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

I've sent the guy emails from two different addresses asking about the setting solution issues.

Each with no response. 

Has anyone else ever contacted know this guy?
Maybe the unanswered emails are a snafu...


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## Cougar184 (Jan 8, 2002)

ive contacted the guy at zodiac and spoke with him a few times usally takes a couple day to hear something back but the people that have used the decals seam to be happy with. im think about using them on my next refit.... also with that one im going to make decals for the wrath of kahn damage  coming this summer with lights and sound!!


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

If you could call and email him and let him know that there are people trying to buy his product, to please check his email I'd greatly appreciate it.

I'm ready to put in an order tonight via Paypal as long as one or two questions I have can be answered.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

Cougar184 said:


> heres that website with the aztec decals
> http://zodiac-miniatures.com/home.htm[/QUOTE]
> 
> Anyone else have more contact info for this person?
> ...


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## Cougar184 (Jan 8, 2002)

I sent him an email sometimes i can take a week. contacting him is hit and miss I found. just be patient or you can maybe pick them up off of ebay. as for using setting solutions if you are concerned about that apply your own sealant over the decals and you should not have any problems. hope this helps


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## mactrek (Mar 30, 2004)

Cougar184 said:


> I sent him an email sometimes i can take a week. contacting him is hit and miss I found. just be patient or you can maybe pick them up off of eBay!


Patience may be a virtue ... but it's strictly reserved for free favors, friends and family.

Business is business!

Granted, he may be on vacation or in the hospital or some such thing ... which is completely understandable ... but if contact is "hit and miss" (especially initial contact) then one must ask what the actual transaction will be like.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

I had emailed him about five days ago originally.

Last night I sent a PayPal payment with shipping instructions.
Still no response.

It may be as simple as the Mactrek suggests. He could be on vacation, a job out of town. No telling.

I purchased Paypal insurance. If I don't hear from him by the end of this coming week I'll just request a refund.

I had wanted to ask if he includes extras of certain pages for testing purposes. He suggests that people test decal setting solutions on left over decals in the instructions.

But there is no guarantee he includes any extra decals. 

Oh well...

The more I look at them the more I think I might end up toning down the color strength a bit in certain areas. 

Question: is there any really thin translucent white paint available?

With the exception of the non-aztec decals and the strongback colored decals, I was thinking a coat of very thin translucent white paint might also be a way of setting the decals and making them blend with the model more closely. I wouldn't have to use a gloss coat that way either I think.

Just a thought...


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## Cougar184 (Jan 8, 2002)

I thought the aztec pattern was a bit strong myself. what I was thinking about doing was mixing up some gloss paint with a little bit of whit in it and misting it on the surface after I got the decals applied. this still needs to be tested but I think it should work. also with the decals I did find a way to apply them with out any settting solution. this I tried out with the decals I made up. what I did is put some future down ( I think thats spelled wrong ) and then applied the decal. I had a cotton swab which I got wet with the future and smoothed out the decal and then let it dry but coming back every so often to make sure there was no drips. a slow process but the decal laid down perfect, no silvering and the future sucked it down to the surface.


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## starseeker (Feb 1, 2006)

You might consider scanning his decals, altering the colors to anything you want, especially since the 1701 changed colors throughout its history, and printing them up on your own decal paper. That way you would be sure that the decals would work. You would also have a backup of the outrageously expensive originals, in case things don't work out as planned. And whatever his instructions say, don't attempt to put any decals down in those large pieces. Thin decals, homemade decals, esp, could be fragile, they could wrinkle, and they might not lie down over compound curves. Maybe 2" x 4" at most to start. Even the azteks. Once each piece is down and dry, each piece... etc, you could even overcoat his decals with pearlescent paints, the way Paul Olsen painted the E. The Aztec pattern was only the first layer on the TMP ship.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

I was thinking of using the translucent white paint not just to tone done some of the aztecs, as Cougar mentioned some of them look a bit strongly colored, but moreso to make sure they don't silver and to help them look like a more natural part of the surface.

I planned to and definitely will do them in small pieces.

Thanks for the advice!


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## Cougar184 (Jan 8, 2002)

im thinking about ordering a couple of the basic sets for my 41 inch excelsor model. im still messing around with how I can lay down the pattern to make it look okay. so that should be fun...


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

Okay!

Got the decals in the mail today!

The pages that came out okay look gorgeous!

Only problem is, 9 of the 15 came out with missing bands of print, were "double imaged" in an offset manner(looks as though printed on a page twice, but with one page being a few hairs' distance apart from the other), and a couple had dark colored blotches on them in key places. 

I sent an email and hopefully they will be replaced and in a decent amount of time.

So I'm encouraged and discouraged all at the same time.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

Got this very unsatisfactory response to my email about the screwed up NINE of FIFETEEN pages of decals:

*"Greetings,*

*The decals are transparent. The banding is from the printing process. They will be almost invisible when applied. The register of the colors will also be nearly imperceptible. *

*Try them. If, when you are done, you are still not happy with the result, I will buy the model from you for $150 and replace the kit. *

*Seriously, DZ *http://zodiac-miniatures.com/home.htm*"*

Apparently this vendor thinks that $150 is a lot to give someone for a kit that costs $50 plus the $100 I've already paid him for his defective decals. 

Am I the only one who finds this ridiculous?

Let's see, I've got a $100(by the time you include shipping) metal armature I'll be using, $50 bucks for the kit, $100 bucks wrapped up in defective decals, $40 + on a lighting control kit, as yet unspent money on LED's, LED tubes, paint, glue, yada yada yada...

add to that all the time I have spent preparing and will spend building the kit, 

however to make up for sending me poorly printed decals if it all ends up looking like crap after I go through all that, because he's too lazy to send me a non-defective replacement pages, he'll *THEN* kindly pay me a measely $150 bucks and a new set of decals! 

Then I can start building all over from square one with a clean set of decals that I should have been sent in the first place!

What a prince of a guy!!!

Am I crazy or is this more then a little ridiculous of a proposal?


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## frontline (May 4, 2005)

No you arent carzy and this guy is the one who needs his head examined. Sounds like he knows his product has a problem and is trying to cover his butt. Its a poor example of customer satisfaction. Either he can make the decal swith out the defects or he cant. If the latter, he ought ot just pull his product from the market.


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## SteveR (Aug 7, 2005)

I agree. He's trying to cover his butt in a strange sort of way. I'd try to send the decals back for a refund, but you might have to accept that you got hosed ... or at least complain to theBay.

Sorry it turned out this way.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

starseeker said:


> You might consider scanning his decals, altering the colors to anything you want, especially since the 1701 changed colors throughout its history, and printing them up on your own decal paper. That way you would be sure that the decals would work. You would also have a backup of the outrageously expensive originals, in case things don't work out as planned.


I have made very high resolution scans of the decals.

All because the ones he has sent me are defective and he doesn't seem likely to send me replacements.


I've done some corrections to a couple of pages. It's ridiculously tedious work!!!:drunk: 

Not to mention I'll have to buy a printer capable of printing decals plus the decal paper!

All because the guy is unwilling to send me the pages that he didn't print properly.

I would stay clear of buying decals from Zodiac Miniatures.


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## frontline (May 4, 2005)

Ok it gets even better. It seems that someone has bought these, then started a yahoo! group and is distributing them for free. The guy who did this sees no problem since he doesnt think that paramount gave him a license. :freak:


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## Krako (Jun 6, 2003)

Wow. That's insane.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

frontline said:


> Ok it gets even better. It seems that someone has bought these, then started a yahoo! group and is distributing them for free. The guy who did this sees no problem since he doesnt think that paramount gave him a license. :freak:


Sure it is the same decals? Have a link?
Interesting if they are the same. Perhaps karma does exist.

He would be right if it's unlicensed material.

Copyright is a term of legal protection.

If you are making an illegal product you can't have a copyright.

It would be like someone making drugs going to the police.

You can't go to the government to claim someone is giving away something you never had the rights to produce for sale to begin with.

Illegal acts cannot be butressed or enforced by the government.

It would be like having a "lady of the night"(outside of Nevada) trying to sue a "client" because his check bounced.

You can't copyright something(i.e. be afforded the protection of law) for a product that is illegally produced.

Technically it's even illegal to give away such info without a license(though you could produce a set for your own exclusive use), but if you are not making money off of it it makes little sense for Paramount or whomever to go after you.


By the way, did you happen to download a copy?


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## frontline (May 4, 2005)

Chuck_P.R. said:


> Sure it is the same decals? Have a link?


You ask, I deliever 



Chuck_P.R. said:


> Interesting if they are the same. Perhaps karma does exist.


From what you have gone through...one can hope



Chuck_P.R. said:


> He would be right if it's unlicensed material.
> 
> Copyright is a term of legal protection.
> 
> ...


Oh fine, be that way about it  So I should have let it at unethical.




Chuck_P.R. said:


> By the way, did you happen to download a copy?


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## starseeker (Feb 1, 2006)

Oh, man, there is just so much wrong with this decal sj that I don't know where to begin. If the person who is selling these in the first place isn't standing behind his product and just fobbing off extremely expensive and defective decals, that's one place to start, definitely. But from his pov, if he was sincere at the beginning, if someone has copied his work and is freely distributing something that took a lot of time to design, even if he isn't getting paid for it (and that seems to have started on Yahoo in mid-Feb?), you would have to feel pretty ripped off yourself and you might feel why should I even bother taking the time and trouble to stand behind what I've done. I don't care if there's no copyright on his decals, I'm pretty sure some hours went into making a decal set that fits the entire 1/350 E. That's like re-casting DLMs parts or scanning and putting up JTGraphics decals for free download somewhere. Once that starts happening, who in their right mind would ever produce aftermarket stuff? We'll be back to scratchbuilding everything and learning to use Photoshop ourselves. So that's another place I could start. Or another: do these decals actually fit and are they accurate? I have no idea what the originals looked like, but what's available for download (and I see that there are like 25 new members on that group checking out the downloads) looks like these at least have been scanned poorly enough that you'll have to do some serious color adjustment on each just to get the bg clear. And what will the leftover color be then? - a pale blue tint? The primary aztek was a white on white. What I think, if these decals actually fit (if they're not just blow-ups of the old Ertl aftermarket sets), the best use of them would be to copy them onto frisket paper and use them as painting templates for the base coats. Then use Pendragon's (?) frisket guides from the SS Modeller site to make a random pattern of finish pearl colors over that. If you're making the TMP E. If these decals do fit, and you just wanted a (non-white?) Aztek pattern on the E, they'd work best with a STII or later E. And preferably the Ertl kit. They are just not subtle enough to my eye for the 1/350. Lot's of PhotoShop before these free downloadable versions are ready for use. Again, have no idea what the originals are like. But if you want to see decals that are breathtaking, the work that Krako is doing on another thread - I'd pay $100 for that! Awesome work! And for the # of hours he's putting into it, he still wouldn't be making money.


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## enterprise_fan (May 23, 2004)

Hypothetical question.....If someone was to ask what size paper should the afore mentioned downloaded decals be printed on......What do you suppose the answer would be?


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

Been busy as heck for days and days. Sorry to take so long to respond to Frontline.

The link you posted is definitely to decals by the same guy.

To Starseeker, you posed the idea...

>>>
>>>
Oh, man, there is just so much wrong with this decal sj that I don't know where to begin. If the person who is selling these in the first place isn't standing behind his product and just fobbing off extremely expensive and defective decals, that's one place to start, definitely. But from his pov, if he was sincere at the beginning
>>>>>>
>>>>>>

I can assure that this guy is not sincere. I've been trying to get replacement sheets from him for weeks with only 2 ridiculous responses from the guy. I'm not talking about a second set - though almost two thirds of the set were defective - I just wanted the sheets that were bad replaced. There is no way I could get a usuable second set out of him replacing the bad pages. I would have sent him the defective ones back first if he said he doubted me or we had gotten that far with the discussion. So he knows I'm not trying to get over him.

But he knew instantly what I was talking about. He has admitted to the bands of missing print on the pages and other problems but his answer to this was that the print is translucent and almost invisible anyway!

I didn't buy his decals so I could squint and pretend screwed up pages worth of decals are really invisible after putting as much effort and time I will have to on this model!

The bad business practices did not come after that website either, Starseeker, that yahoo group was started last week.

I can't speak for anyone else but the guy screwed me over for weeks longer then that.

Based on the link it seems pissing off your customers is not good business practice.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

starseeker said:


> But if you want to see decals that are breathtaking, the work that Krako is doing on another thread - I'd pay $100 for that! Awesome work! And for the # of hours he's putting into it, he still wouldn't be making money.


Agreed!

Hope he does the whole ship!

I'd easily pay another $100 for a set done properly.
It would take me forever in Photoshop to do work as good as Krako's.
To do enough to do an entire ship would take an impossible amount of time, well worth $100 or maybe more - as long as they actually were printed properly.

Perhaps, if he doesn't have a decal-capable printer Krako could get together with some trustworthy person like John P. and come to an understanding.


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