# Is there really an advantage?!?!



## 440OnRoad (Sep 20, 2011)

After the Grand Slam race this past weekend in Grand Rapids, several of the drivers got together and were discussing the race weekend. What they were all talking about was the practice of holding these type series events and similar higher caliber events on track layouts that are brand new and not available to run on until the event starts. The other part of the discussion focused on trying to keep the event to a Sat/Sun schedule. 

Traditionally, everyone has been in favor of keeping the track closed until the event starts to theoretically keep the locals or those that live close from gaining an advantage. On the other hand, when the layout is up the weekend before or the track is available on the Friday of the event weekend...a lot of "out of towners" have historically felt they have to go the weekend before or at least be there early on Friday to stay competitive.

The first thing they all agreed with was they like the Sat/Sun format and not having to be there on Friday to minimize the travel costs and time away from work and families.

This past weekend, the track opened for the first time at 7:00am and qualifying was going to start at 1:00. The downside to this format was that the traction didn't really even start to come in until close to noon which left very little time to dial in. It wasn't until the third round of qualifying that the grip really got pretty good. 

This group of drivers included guys who traveled +6/8 hours to get there and local guys too. The overwhelming consensus was they like the Sat/Sun format and changing to allow the local club to put the track up early and run a club race the weekend before and/or Friday practice. That way you can come in Sat morning and hit the track and it will be in a race ready condition which will allow two things. You'll be able to get dialed in better/sooner and all the qualifiers will be run on a track that should be consistent throughout the event.

Just thought I'd throw it out to a broader group of racers to see what others thought. For what's worth, I drove 4 hours to get there and was in the parking lot at 6:30am. The doors opened at 7:00 sharp and I was set up and ready to go by 7:20. But after watching others try to run I didn't hit the track to practice until 9:30 and it was still wayyyyy loose. Didn't go out again for another hour. Not much better.

My vote is let'm set it up and run on it in advance. That way we could have been on the track and working on set up by 7:30.....

Chime in if you run these type of events and have an opinion! :thumbsup:


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## Miller Time (Sep 24, 2006)

As the organizer of aforementioned event......I'm listening, speak up, perhaps there is compromise.


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## johnny lee (Sep 24, 2010)

i like the format that was.


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## Miller Time (Sep 24, 2006)

J.Lee said:


> i like the format that was.


that was this weekend or was for the Classic and last 3 years?


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## CarbonJoe (Jun 29, 2006)

Regardless of the intent, most of the out of towners still have to travel on Friday, and stay Friday night, unless they like driving all night to get there when the track opens. Thus, not having practice on Friday hasn't really saved us anything.

Did you guys spray the track to aid in establishing the groove quicker?


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## Chaz955i (May 19, 2009)

I'd prefer to show up with traction even if the locals get a few extra laps. IMO, there's still plenty of time to learn the track and get up to speed.


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## Barry Z (Mar 28, 2002)

Chaz955i said:


> I'd prefer to show up with traction even if the locals get a few extra laps. IMO, there's still plenty of time to learn the track and get up to speed.


 


+ one


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## crashmaster (Nov 22, 2002)

i know im not the best racer out there or have the newest car but i had the opposite problem then everybody else. i was trying to lose traction all weekend until the main. as for racing are the snowbirds/cleveland open the weekend before or the weekend of. midwest i know is not as big as them but are they open the weekend before. this is my thoughts of traction/practice for racing just my 2 cents


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## Kevin Cole (Nov 13, 2008)

As a track owner that hosts a leg of this event as well as several other national level Oval & On-Road events, I like the two day format...and even the one day format.

It does cut cost for the traveling racers and allows for a much more smooth running program for the weekend.

As far as traction...I have sprayed in the past and still do so at times...even for club racing.
I would prefer to not spray and let the traction build, when you spray the carpet will hit a plateau way too soon in the event.
Letting the traction naturally build is part of the race experience and makes the racer make more decisions about car control, set-up, and adjustments moving further into the event...which is & should be a part of any racing event...big or small.

I say leave the events to one or two days, and let the racers figure out the changes their cars need as the groove changes through-out the event...racing on fly paper takes too much from what the racer should have to do to prepare his/her car.


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## Lessen (Jan 13, 2009)

Kevin Cole said:


> Letting the traction naturally build is part of the race experience and makes the racer make more decisions about car control, set-up, and adjustments moving further into the event...which is & should be a part of any racing event...big or small.


Agree 120%


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## mrbighead (Dec 17, 2008)

J.Lee said:


> i like the format that was.


I agree, with Mr. Lee.. its hard for some people to get that extra day off work just to race..


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## PDK RACING (Mar 11, 2009)

Its all for fun and it is always fun. Let the tracks have open options.


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## Chaz955i (May 19, 2009)

Kevin Cole said:


> As a track owner that hosts a leg of this event as well as several other national level Oval & On-Road events, I like the two day format...and even the one day format.
> 
> It does cut cost for the traveling racers and allows for a much more smooth running program for the weekend.
> 
> ...


I tend to agree about spraying a track. I like the feel of a track where the line and grip level come up from actual run time, not spraying the track down. The feel is much more consistant. That said for a two day event which may have a large group of entries I think it is a good idea to have some semblance of a groove down before 14 guys running rubber tc are on the stand skating their cars around the track before their five minutes are up and the next group gets called for practice. With no line to start the first rounds of practice are just throwaways until the traction reaches a workable level.


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## Adam B (Nov 27, 2010)

I like the 2 day thing. Like Willie said, it is too hard for some people to take Friday off to travel, or go practice. Mr. Miller, keep things the way they are now and in the future. Of course, going to a track where grip is up would be great, but it probably isn't worth the costs of work time lost, and extra expense to the track owner for payroll, etc. From a business stand point, the only good thing for a track owner would be extra parts possibly sold. Usually they don't charge for practice on Friday if you are registered for these events. But, they have the costs of utilities, payroll, etc. I would leave it up to the track owner. Maybe open practice up late the day before, and allow them to charge for practice time. Maybe a few hours of people playing on the track will help grip, but not really give anybody a big advantage.


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## dragrace (Aug 1, 2003)

Please keep as a 2 day race and no practice on friday or on the layout used for the race.

It is hard to travel to all the regional and national races a it is and adding more days doesn't help.

Steve Dunn


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## Goetz Chris D. (Jul 25, 2004)

No different than any issue, you'll get every opinion out there. Some will be based on voting for what works best specifically for themselves, while others will take into account the 'bigger picture' so to speak. Here is mine:

*Duration?

*2 days is good, provided the track is usable from the minute it's open. It's not just about setup, it's about track time. I simply like driving my car around the track (most days ).

*Is there really an advantage?!?! 
*
In years past, I thought so. Since then, I've realized that the advantage of running a layout ahead of time is much, much less than what it is perceived to be. I can list the littany of reasons that I believe this to be true, but suffice it to say that it's mostly perceived. And while, we're not going to change people's perceptions with mere sentences posted on the internet, those who will stay home over something like this tend to be the same ones who _"can't get the fast batteries and motors" _that the other guys have. (Get it?) 

So, with the above said, for club-size races (<100 entries) I think running the track in ahead of time makes for a better experience for the race/racers. I understand that the changing track conditions are the same for everyone and theoretically it forces the element of adaptation. However, in practice, all it does is limit track time. The only guys running on a garbage track are those with 'issues' in one form or another. The guys who do this the best will simply sit out until qualifying because they are experienced enough to know that you're shooting at a moving target ... a target that slows to a near halt as the weekend moves on. So, all this does is translate into even less track time for the investment. 

I honestly don't get too bothered over this stuff anymore. Even if something about a race seems short-sighted, ill-conceived, or all together ridiculous, it just becomes another element to tackle in trying to come out of the weekend a success. But I guess I wanted to give some insight on these things so that the overall enjoyment for the racers stays high.

- Tom


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## Miller Time (Sep 24, 2006)

First off for those that don't know me well, I took on the series operation as my predecessoor became too busy personally to do it. With Klebau missing this weekend I think I am the only one to make all 14 stops so far including the 2 years I had nothing directly to do with the series. I also work most Saturday's and have nearly always had to burn 2 vacation days per event. The idea of going to 2 days was to help you all, as I will still be at each race as much as I can on Friday's to tie up loose ends and help the track as needed. If the track is open on Friday I personally would likely hardly run on it aside for checking the flow and perhaps tweaking the corners as needed for a safe fun layout. So all that said, I'm am in the same boat as most of you, and I also take nothing monetarily from the event, anything the series gets (which is minimal) goes toward trophies and minor expenses. Above all else I want a fun event filled with comradarie and minimal investment and inconvience for all......

So the gist i'm getting is:
Like 2 day format 
BUT 
1st few hours of pratice are worthless
any local advantage is minumum
still travel Friday to prevent a super early departure and long day Saturday.

My opinion:
On average the series sees about 100 entries, at 10 on stand at a time for 6 to 8 minutes, figures to only about 30 minutes or 4 or 5 runs, if the first 2 hours are throw away then it reduces that drastically. I feel the majority will travel after work to set up pits and get a decent night sleep anyway, but would prefer not to take a vacation day. Also with the Grandslam being a little more tightly packed selection of tracks most are not making 8+ hour drives as with Gaithersburg, New York, and Canada tracks. 

How about this

Track open for just a few hours late Firday Night, perhaps even 'not included' in race entry so it will be tracks discretion to charge a minimum fee (we did drop the entry $5 this year) Those that want the track time will get some but perhaps not the high quality time as when the track is grooved up, there will then be some groove to start with on Saturday morning. Perhaps even some form of late arrival only after open practice and before Qualifiers start

THIS IS NOT THE FINAL DESICION AND I APPRECIATE THE OPEN CONVERSATION TO THIS POINT


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## Adam B (Nov 27, 2010)

There is also only two legs left at this point. I wouldn't change anything this year. But next year, keep these ideas in the back of your head. Ken, the people that follow this series would still show up if it was a single day event. You run a smooth show, and I enjoyed the classic. I wish I could have made it this past weekend to GR, but I will be in Indy for sure, and MSI. You already have to worry about things the way they are now, I wouldn't stress about this now and cause more headache. IMO


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## Lessen (Jan 13, 2009)

Even though I'm a rookie I do agree that track time on a new layout is not that much of an advantage. I've only been doing this racing thing since the spring. At first I was all about getting as much track time as possible but being brand new the reasons are different. With one summer and one fall under my belt (and one car that's finally tuned to my liking) I don't fret over getting to the track as soon as the door opens. We ran a new layout this weekend at The Gate and it only felt new for the first 10 minutes of tracktime. Now by no means did I have my lines perfected, but I was comfortable enought it to run good laps.


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## Chaz955i (May 19, 2009)

Adam B said:


> There is also only two legs left at this point. I wouldn't change anything this year. But next year, keep these ideas in the back of your head. Ken, the people that follow this series would still show up if it was a single day event. You run a smooth show, and I enjoyed the classic. I wish I could have made it this past weekend to GR, but I will be in Indy for sure, and MSI. You already have to worry about things the way they are now, I wouldn't stress about this now and cause more headache. IMO


+1 It is a good show. Anyone who lives near one of these races and doesn't go is missing out on a great time.


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## RustyS (Feb 16, 2003)

I dont travel to go to big races so my opinion might not be as important as others but my local track does host 2 big races and I do participate. I like the friday night practice because I can run on a less busier track. I feel like I can get better lap times without dodging and swerving around the slower classes. I also think if they start off with controlled practices on 1 day events would be helpfull and could eliminate the need for the night before practice.


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## jbrracer (Jul 28, 2011)

everyone runs on the same track part of winning is guessing whats next on and off the track he who guesses best wins. 

dont chase the track let the track come to you.


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## reilly (Feb 17, 2004)

J.Lee said:


> i like the format that was.


I agree with Johnny.

It makes it the most fair for everyone and is a test of everyones skill at not just driving but at setup as well. 

The best racers move to the top. 

My 2 cents


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## 440OnRoad (Sep 20, 2011)

Lots of good discussion on this topic!! I would like to comment on one aspect that has been mentioned and that is that adjusting to track conditions is part of any type of racing. I totally agree with this in general when you are racing your competitors. The problem is that the format we qualify with has us racing the clock. If you've figured the track out better than anyone else in round one and TQ with a 35 8:05 thats awesome. Unfortunately when you hit the track in round two the grip will be better and the whole field will likely be faster and TQ could go up by a lap or more simply because of the track conditions. That totally writes off round one as nothing more than a controlled practice.

Just my 2 cents!!!


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## Adam B (Nov 27, 2010)

people offer a penny for a thought, and then people give their 2 cents. Somebody is making money at this.


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## CypressMidWest (Apr 30, 2002)

I think the simple answer to this conundrum is to spray the track. In the 17.5 classes this really isn't a big deal, but in a superstock or Mod class, grip is very important. If the track is sprayed, grip comes up much more quickly, and really doesn't require that anyone run on Friday to groove the track in. 

Spraying seems to be the best compromise, since nobody gets any extra track time, but the track grooves up quicker. The only other option I could offer would be to run more practice on day one, and one less qualifier, but that's not really an idea that I like.........


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