# News from iHobby - Orion Space Clipper



## derric1968

From Cult TV Man. A sneak peek at Moebius' Orion Space Clipper.

http://culttvman.com/main/?p=14051


----------



## Dr. Brad

Yes!!!!!


----------



## miniature sun

Great stuff....from the stand this looks like an Aurora re-pop which is fine as the Aurora kit was pretty good as I recall. I'd still like to see a larger scale one though.
Be nice to see them do an Aries 1B too.


----------



## sg-99

Fantastic! another model I must own!:thumbsup:


----------



## Paulbo

SWEET! Heard a rumor of its possibility, but awesome to see it!

(Moebius has been using the old Aurora stand for a few years now, but the front end definitely has the old Aurora look to it.)


----------



## miniature sun

Paulbo said:


> SWEET! Heard a rumor of its possibility, but awesome to see it!


Hmmmm....I feel another etched set coming on....:thumbsup:


----------



## Paulbo

Hmmmm ... one of my favorite designs from my favorite movie? Possibly, possibly 

I haven't held an Aurora in my hands since it met the same fate as my moon bus way back when (i.e. blown to bits with M-80s). Had plenty of Airfix ones, though. 

I've got a couple of ideas.

(Though it's totally bogus, I hope they include the engine room from the old Aurora kit.)


----------



## jaws62666

Any other cool sci fi coming out from anyone?


----------



## RMC

.........is That Moonbus "larger" Then The One Moebius Already Puts Out ?????


----------



## Paulbo

Same kit as is already out.


----------



## Carson Dyle

Although I'm sorry to hear that tooling costs prohibited this from being released in a larger scale, I'm THRILLED that Moebius has remastered the subject with the care and attention we've come to expect (please correct me if I'm wrong Frank, but my understanding is that the Moebius Orion features new, more accurate detailing, and is not simply another "re-pop").


----------



## SUNGOD

I had a feeling we'd get this eventually from Moebius but I'm still surprised.....and surprised in a great way. Nice one Moebius!:thumbsup:


----------



## Moonman27

So is this a reissue,or a new tool? I still have a 70s issue built-up that I want to restore someday,but I need a good set of Pan Am decals. I bought some off ebay a while back,but they kinda suck. I would love a bigger scale too,but am more than happy to get a reissue. I hope they use the 70s boxart painting,not the original issue photo box. Moebius is just showing off now!:thumbsup:


----------



## John P

Love it. I have an original Aurora, and even the bigger Stargazer kits, but this is a must-have-several item. It'd be cool if it's true that Moebius will be accurizing it.


----------



## SUNGOD

I hope it's accurized too with a few new detail parts, engraved panel lines etc (even more engraved panel lines added would be great as the filming miniatures had a lot) but if it isn't then it'll still be great to have it reissued.


----------



## Moebius

New tool. Not the Aurora kit, not the Airfix kit. More accurate version than anything that has been out there.


----------



## Zathros

*I'd have been more than happy with a straight repop, but this looks fine..

Z
*


----------



## xsavoie

What is it's lenght.Will it have an interior section with seats.


----------



## Carson Dyle

Thanks for the update, Frank.

As I just posted on the sci-fi forum, I was 99.9% sure the Moebius version would feature new tooling. Alas, my memory isn't what it used to be.

:hat:


----------



## getter weevil

Moebius said:


> New tool. Not the Aurora kit, not the Airfix kit. More accurate version than anything that has been out there.


<cartman> SWEEEEET! </cartman>

This is a cool announcement the first new styrene 2001 kit subject since the original Aurora stuff.

I guess if folks keep buying the 2001 kits someone will make them.

Did Moebius wrangle some special licensing deal or did they get by that like Airfix did with their Orion clipper re-issue? Could other subject's be in the pipe as well?


----------



## SUNGOD

Wow.......new tool eh! Sounds good to me!:thumbsup:


----------



## fluke

From what I understand...the Studios and Kubrick estate do not own the 'image' of the ships any more...only the correct 'names' ....that is how the Moon Bus has been re-released and why the GK guys have not been 100% busted.


----------



## John P

Moebius said:


> New tool. Not the Aurora kit, not the Airfix kit. More accurate version than anything that has been out there.


I love you!!!





What's the scale? It's long beer known that the Aurora kit was too small to be 1/144.


----------



## rkoenn

Frank's going to make me spend a huge portion of my hobby money at the Moebius store! I still have a built Aurora in my workshop that was never quite finished. That was back in the days of my cartoon panel type model painting. I think I will pull it out and take a look at it tonight. This new one with new tooling will be another kit to add to my buy list. 2001 is still my favorite scifi film for treating space so realistically and for being so cerebral. I have read almost all Clarke's books and first saw 2001 when it was released in 1968 and I was 14/15 at a CinemaScope theater in Tampa. I talked my dad into taking us over for it and what a spectacle in Cinerama. The seating in the theater was quite small and the 3 screens were huge. It was like being in space.

Bob K.


----------



## Dr. Brad

Wow - a new tool! That's even better news!


----------



## Steve H

Please be 1/144 scale please be 1/144 scale please be 1/144 scale

I really want this lined up with some airliners. altho...is 1/200 the current fad for commercial aircraft? I lose track.

Also, Pan Am decals, or do we have to do the 'made up airline' dance and let the aftermarket pop out the real deal?


----------



## SUNGOD

I hope Moebius goes to town on the engraved panel line detailing. Lots of panels on the Orion as in this photo......


http://home.comcast.net/~photonlasertag/2001/2001-space-clipper-large.jpg


----------



## Moonman27

I'm likin' the new tool,sounds awesome. I love all the spacecraft from this movie,but would love to see a kit done of the spacesuited astronauts like on the album cover. I think Robert McCall painted it. It shows an astronaut and some surveying equipment(?) beside him. That would be a sweet kit.


----------



## Dave Metzner

Same size as Aurora - No bogus atomic engines - no interior - More accurate wings - corrected engine exhaust shapes - overall better details - basically an all new kit based on the Aurora...


----------



## HabuHunter32

Another must have ! :thumbsup:


----------



## woof359

did any one mention when this well be for sale ?


----------



## John P

NOT tomorrow.


----------



## DarthForge

Frank, Dave you guys are Gods! I bow to you sirs. :dude:


----------



## Lee Staton

SUNGOD said:


> I hope Moebius goes to town on the engraved panel line detailing. Lots of panels on the Orion as in this photo......


I could be wrong, but I think much of that detail is just airbrushed tones and not engraved. All the 2001 models seem to have had lots of airbrush panel toning to create the illusion of larger scale.

I am so thrilled that Moebius is releasing this kit!

Lee


----------



## JeffG

'Daddy's traveling!'


----------



## SUNGOD

Lee Staton said:


> I could be wrong, but I think much of that detail is just airbrushed tones and not engraved. All the 2001 models seem to have had lots of airbrush panel toning to create the illusion of larger scale.
> 
> I am so thrilled that Moebius is releasing this kit!
> 
> Lee





Possibly but it's different panels they're supposed to be representing. Lots of Gerry Anderson models had the panel lines drawn on in pen but when they were translated into model form they were engraved.


----------



## Dave Metzner

Lee, 
You're correct - the real shooting miniatures for the movie were mostly smooth with much of the surface detail portrayed by paint not engraved details - the plan is for the final Moebius model to be faithful to the shooting models and it will not have engraved panel lines that were never on the actual shooting models-Only the engraved lines that were present on the shooting model are planned for out kit..
Plan for now is to have the kit available 1st qtr 2011


----------



## Paulbo

Dave Metzner said:


> ...Plan for now is to have the kit available 1st qtr 2011


Whoo hoo! :thumbsup:


----------



## B-9

In case anyone has never seen the "real" Orion, check it out here:
http://www.scifiairshow.com/index.html


----------



## xsavoie

Great news.Let's hope in the not such distant future,a 12 inches diameter Space Station,with option of building the completed one or under construction like in the movie.The Discovery,as well as 2001 Astronaut.


----------



## flyingfrets

Discovery would be an absolute "must have." But I'm thankful for what Moebius has already brought to the table, so I'll just shut up now.


----------



## Dr. Brad

This is easily the most excited I've been about a new kit announcement, since, well, the Moonbus! I'm so, so looking forward to getting this!


----------



## Lee Staton

Dave Metzner said:


> The plan is for the final Moebius model to be faithful to the shooting models...
> Plan for now is to have the kit available 1st qtr 2011


Even better news! Faithful to the filming models makes me happy! Thanks to Douglas Trumbull's website, many of us have downloaded incredible shots of the original models for reference.

Maybe Lou will make some masks to help with the extensive paint masking in the after-market.

Thanks for the clarification, Dave. While I'd have liked it a little bigger than the old Aurora, I am delighted beyond words that it will be much more accurate. And a bit relieved that it's not a huge kit that I can't adequately display.

Moebius is getting me back to building again this winter! Can't wait to get this kit!

Lee


----------



## Dave Metzner

If Discovery is a "must Have" for you let me suggest that you start exploring resin kits as I don't see it anywhere on our future projects list.


----------



## John P

Stargazer's 1/144 Discovery (available at the Starship Modeler store) is an awesome kit. A bit pricier than a plastic kit, of course.

I hope you guys do consider it in plastic some day, Dave and Frank. But I can see the complexity being an issue.


----------



## miniature sun

Dave Metzner said:


> Same size as Aurora - No bogus atomic engines - no interior


Time for Paulbo to fire up the etching fluid.....Heywood Floyd complete with floating pen.....


----------



## Dr. Brad

What? No atomic engines?!!! Just kidding. I actually don't even know what you guys are talking about. Was this some sort under the hood detail?


----------



## miniature sun

I think someone on here has a scan of the original instructions...possibly Carson Dyle...which show what we're on about.


----------



## Captain_April

Great news guys, the Aries and the space pod(with Frank Poole figure) would be a dream come true.


----------



## flyingfrets

Dave Metzner said:


> If Discovery is a "must Have" for you let me suggest that you start exploring resin kits as I don't see it anywhere on our future projects list.


Ah, but there's the catch. It would only be a "must have" *IF* Moebius were to do it.

As John pointed out, the resin kits are expensive, and after my experience with the Lunar Models version, I'm not inclined to take another chance on a resin Discovery.

But thanks for the info, and more importantly, thanks for the incredible kits you *ARE* doing.


----------



## scotpens

miniature sun said:


> Dr. Brad said:
> 
> 
> 
> What? No atomic engines?!!! Just kidding. I actually don't even know what you guys are talking about. Was this some sort under the hood detail?
> 
> 
> 
> I think someone on here has a scan of the original instructions...possibly Carson Dyle...which show what we're on about.
Click to expand...


----------



## Dave Metzner

Aires and Frank Poole kits are somewhere below the Discovery on our list of future projects....I know that there is at least one Aires resin kit out there - as for Frank Poole - that's just not in any future plans for us at this time...


----------



## JeffG

I gotta start building quicker, because as Luke said "They're coming in too fast!". Fantastic news about the Orion. For what it's worth to mention it, I as I'm sure legions of others, would be completely blown away by a Moebius Discovery. After all it is THE ship from 2001 and if anybody could do it justice...well, you know the rest. I realize there's licensing issues and costs and such, but I can't help but think that it would do very well. I'm just sayin'! Anyway, keep pumpin' em out...we'll keep buying them!


----------



## Dr. Brad

Ahh, that explains it. Actually, it's kind of cool. Kind of pointless, since the extra detail would be sealed up, but still, kind of cool (I can't believe I just used "kind of" three times in one sentence).



scotpens said:


>


----------



## John P

^It wasn't sealed up, the whole tail assembly popped right off to show the engine. I've got all the parts - I left the engine out when I built mine, but I still have the box with the parts.


----------



## mcdougall

John P said:


> ^It wasn't sealed up, the whole tail assembly popped right off to show the engine. I've got all the parts - I left the engine out when I built mine, but I still have the box with the parts.


...er...I always thought that was the coolest part of the kit 
...just saying...
Mcdee


----------



## Paulbo

miniature sun said:


> Time for Paulbo to fire up the etching fluid.....Heywood Floyd complete with floating pen.....


Hmmm... hadn't thought of the pen ... though a quick calculation shows that it'd be about, oh, 2 or 3 thousandths of an inch wide 

There are some plans for this puppy, though! I've already pulled out my Airfix to start making preliminary measurements. (My old Aurora was the victem of a "launch failure" involving firecrackers, M-80s, and lighter fluid back in the early 70s. )


----------



## Captain_April

Dave Metzner said:


> Aires and Frank Poole kits are somewhere below the Discovery on our list of future projects....I know that there is at least one Aires resin kit out there - as for Frank Poole - that's just not in any future plans for us at this time...


Is the space pod on the list, 1/6 scale? what is on the List?


----------



## Paulbo

I'm looking at the Atomic City 1/6 scale space pod and it's flipping huge - 13" diameter. *IF* Moebius were to look into doing a space pod, I can only imagine that they'd go for something a bit more wallet friendly, like 1/12 scale.

But if you want a pod now, the AC 1/12 kit is fantastic.


----------



## Dr. Brad

John P said:


> ^It wasn't sealed up, the whole tail assembly popped right off to show the engine. I've got all the parts - I left the engine out when I built mine, but I still have the box with the parts.


Oh, that would have been cool. Still, I can see why Moebius would leave it out....


----------



## SUNGOD

Nice to see the estimate is for the 1st qtr 2011. How big is the Aurora one compared to the Airfix one b.t.w.? I've only got the Airfix one.


----------



## Gemini1999

SUNGOD said:


> Nice to see the estimate is for the 1st qtr 2011. How big is the Aurora one compared to the Airfix one b.t.w.? I've only got the Airfix one.


Same size as the Aurora kit:

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showpost.php?p=3530988&postcount=29

Bryan


----------



## SUNGOD

Dr. Brad said:


> Oh, that would have been cool. Still, I can see why Moebius would leave it out....



I'm glad Moebius aren't doing the engine. Hopefully it will cut down tooling costs and it's totally unecessary and inaccurate anyway.


----------



## SUNGOD

Gemini1999 said:


> Same size as the Aurora kit:
> 
> http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showpost.php?p=3530988&postcount=29
> 
> Bryan




I don't think I've ever seen a comparison shot with them next to each other but I thought they were around the same size. Might have read it somewhere.


----------



## xsavoie

Since Moebius does not intend to add a passenger interior for the Orion,I guess an aftermarket interior will be available soon after the kit will be issued.Nevertheless,I am very happy about Moebius issuing this kit.:thumbsup:


----------



## Moonman27

I imagine if a Discovery was done in styrene the "backbone" or "spine" parts would be kinda prone to sagging. I love the ship,but a shorter "sport" model would be more stucturally sound in 1G not 0G of space. Have you guys seen the concept prototype of the Discovery? It is shorter and meaner looking. I like the Orion tho' and will get this kit for sure!:thumbsup:


----------



## Astrocat

fluke said:


> From what I understand...the Studios and Kubrick estate do not own the 'image' of the ships any more...only the correct 'names' ....that is how the Moon Bus has been re-released and why the GK guys have not been 100% busted.


I'm afraid the supposed confusion over the ownership is actually just an urban myth... Warner Bros own all the rights - images, names, everything to do with the movie. No ambiguity there at all (lawyers don't like to see that sort of thing).....
I only know this because a friend of mine has been exploring 2001's copyright issues at length recently.

As far as I can tell, the main reason the GK guys haven't been pressed so far is because they're making so little $ from the kits the cost of action isn't worth the paperwork. If they were producing kits on a large scale that might be a different matter. It seems to be the same rule of thumb with most of the studios, where they turn a blind eye to the smaller guy.
The fact remains that Warners DO hold all the rights...


----------



## phicks

Dave Metzner said:


> If Discovery is a "must Have" for you let me suggest that you start exploring resin kits as I don't see it anywhere on our future projects list.


Dave - May I ask if that's a licensing issue, a perceived interest issue, or a structural issue of how a thin styrene rod would support the command pod and the engines at the far ends?

I'll keep buying any ships Moebius puts out for 2001! My personal order of interest would be:
1. Discovery
2. Aires
3. Pod


----------



## Dave Metzner

Right now we see to much cost and too little return on investment in Discovery, Aires or the Pod... @ this date Orion will be the end of the line for us. 
As we see it, there are too many ways to spend the same tooling and development money to produce much better results for us today.
This could change at some point in the future but I wouldn't count on that.


----------



## John P

Dude, don't kill my hopes and dreams!


----------



## xsavoie

A way to stop sagging of the spine of discovery would be to leave a hole in the middle of the spine and put a steel wire.Just like Lunar Models did,I believe.If Moebius won't make the other 2001 kits,either Atlantis,Pegasus or even Monarch might do it.Perhaps even Glencoe or Lindberg.After all,Moebius has taken it's share of the burden with the Moonbus and Orion.


----------



## JeffG

Though it is discouraging to hear that Moebius wont be making a kit of the Discovery, this seems the best alternative that I've found so far.
http://www.starshipmodeler.biz/shop/index.cfm/product/1651_207/1144-2001-discovery.cfm

http://www.planet3earth.co.uk/USS DISCOVERY.htm


----------



## Dave Metzner

Take it anyway you like, some times it gets a pretty damned agravating to sit where I do... because whenever we announce new product there are always several of you that can't be satisfied and always want more and bigger regardless of how we try to explain what does and does not make good dollars and cents for us...It's always "yeah but what if you did this or that".......
That's how I came to take a sabatical from this board in the not too distant past and will probably be the cause of another departure for me sooner rather than later!


----------



## ajamodels

Dave Metzner said:


> Take it anyway you like, some times it gets a pretty damned agravating to sit where I do... because whenever we announce new product there are always several of you that can't be satisfied and always want more and bigger regardless of how we try to explain what does and does not make good dollars and cents for us...It's always "yeah but what if you did this or that".......
> That's how I came to take a sabatical from this board in the not too distant past and will probably be the cause of another departure for me sooner rather than later!


Reading the past 5 pages (from an outsiders POV), i would have to agree with Dave. Stick to the subject of this thread and show some appreciation for the thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours these guys have done to recreate this model.


----------



## Dave P

Take heart Dave, and pour yourself a stiff drink. It is IHobby season after all, and the armchair quarterbacks are in bloom.

Between this, the Spindrift, the Big E and most of the wish list threads, it reminds me of my 7-year-old daughter. I tell her no. For the next hour she continues to ask the same question. I say "I already gave you your answer. Why are you still asking?"

She says "I'll keep asking until I get the answer I want."




AJA - By the time it's said and done and on the shelf, you're looking manufacturing costs of 5 if not into 6 figures easy depending on the kit. Scott Alexander mentioned in an R2 thread that it ended up costing $68K to get his Mercury Capsule done, and that was a number of years ago.


----------



## Dr. Brad

Well, sure, it's a bit disappointing that Moebius won't be doing the other subjects we'd like to see in the near future, but I'm still thrilled about this kit! And hey, Frank and Dave know the business and what's going on with their numbers.The fact that the Orion is a new tool is very cool and I can't wait!


----------



## miniature sun

It's odd how some folks seem to be constantly disappointed at what isn't coming out instead of happy at what is.
Even ten years ago, the thought that we might see so many of these great kits available again, either as re-pops or re-tools, seemed impossible. 
Not only have Moebius gone way beyond what many could have hoped for, they have been incredibly generous in sharing ideas and info on new kits, as well as listening to the modellers through forums like this one.
A lot of this seems to have rubbed off on other companies such as Pegasus...I mean who would have put money on seeing a Space Ark or WOTW Martian in styrene?
Lets just be glad for what's coming our way and leave the business end to the guys who obviously know what they're doing or else every thread on here will just become another wish list.


----------



## SteveR

Dave, I just have to say THANK YOU to you and Moebius for this announcement. I am entirely satisfied.

... in a modeling sense, of course.


----------



## JeffG

These are indeed good times to be a sci-fi modeler. Everybody has their own personal subjects that stand out more than others but the fact is that everything simply can't be made. Any kits that Moebius makes will be near perfection, and if someone has a favorite that's not in the pipeline, that is where the disappointment comes from; knowing that it wont be made by the best in the business. In a strange sense, it's kind of a compliment I guess. That being said however, I don't think anyone is ungrateful for what is being offered. Not so long ago, kits of this quality and range of subject matter was unheard of. Therefore, carry on guys. I think I speak for us all when I say you're doing great work and your efforts are very much appreciated. 'So say we all!'


----------



## mach7

All I can say is great!

First the Moonbus, now a new Orion. I could not be happier with Moebius!

Great times.

Mark

Edit:

Oh yah, I don't build figures, but I'm going to give Elvira a go! Oh wait that does not sound right. Hmm, I try and build her. Yah thats better.


----------



## Carson Dyle

JeffG said:


> I don't think anyone is ungrateful for what is being offered.


Reading through this thread "ungrateful" is not the impression one is left with.

No one has a higher regard for Moebius than I do, but this is a modeling forum. Like it or not there are going to be a few posters who dare to raise questions about which kits are produced, how kits are produced, why certain kits are not produced, etc. It goes with the territory; there will always be a couple malcontents along with the scores and scores of grateful sycophants (I include myself in the latter group). A company like Moebius ought to be secure enough in its success to take the good with the bad – especially when the “bad” generally amounts to no more than some cheeky pest like me raising the specter of a large scale Spindrift model, or the like.

I have the utmost respect for Dave and Frank, and I hope they’ll take my comments in the spirit intended. I’m not trying to stir up a hornet’s nest, but I can’t help but question whether this is the right place for representatives of Moebius to vent their frustrations re: potential customers. God knows we can be an annoying lot, but a company that betrays a resentment toward its customer base – for whatever the reason -- runs the risk of alienating the very people they’re trying to attract.

And for what? Sure, some of those who post here may be nit-picky ingrates, but where is the upside in publically calling them on it? As a public-relations strategy it leaves something to be desired IMO. 

Forums like this, by their very nature, invite discussion, debate, and yes, even the occasional criticism. Lord knows neither Frank nor Dave have solicited my opinion in this matter, but I’m going to give it anyway: If the comments posted here annoy you, keep it to yourself. To do otherwise makes you look thin-skinned and needlessly defensive.

And I say that as one who’s purchased just about every Moebius kit released to date (those stupid Flying Sub wheels notwithstanding).


----------



## ajamodels

Hmmmm. Good points from everyone here in the last page or so. Truly different points of view but definately correct. 
My personal opinion is to stay _on topic _("The Space Clipper") - thats all!


----------



## Carson Dyle

ajamodels said:


> My personal opinion is to stay _on topic _("The Space Clipper") - thats all!


And on that note, I'm going to toot ajamodels' horn for him, since he appears too modest to do so himself.

As I mentioned on another Orion thread, AJA produced what I consider to be the best and most accurate 2001 garage kit ever with his 1/48 Aries. 

So what does that have to do with the Moebius Orion you may ask? Well, AJA is also serving as a consultant/ prototype designer on the re-tooled Orion. 

Having met and spoken to AJA at length about this subject I know just how significant his contribution is likely to be. With one or two possible exceptions, there is NOBODY more knowledgable when it comes to the finer points of the filming miniature. 

So when Moebius boasts that this will be the most accurate Orion model to ever hit the market you can pretty much bank on it.


----------



## JeffG

Not sure if it's been asked before, but will it have the Pan Am decals as seen in the film?


----------



## Moebius

Carson Dyle said:


> Reading through this thread "ungrateful" is not the impression one is left with.
> 
> No one has a higher regard for Moebius than I do, but this is a modeling forum. Like it or not there are going to be a few posters who dare to raise questions about which kits are produced, how kits are produced, why certain kits are not produced, etc. It goes with the territory; there will always be a couple malcontents along with the scores and scores of grateful sycophants (I include myself in the latter group). A company like Moebius ought to be secure enough in its success to take the good with the bad – especially when the “bad” generally amounts to no more than some cheeky pest like me raising the specter of a large scale Spindrift model, or the like.
> 
> I have the utmost respect for Dave and Frank, and I hope they’ll take my comments in the spirit intended. I’m not trying to stir up a hornet’s nest, but I can’t help but question whether this is the right place for representatives of Moebius to vent their frustrations re: potential customers. God knows we can be an annoying lot, but a company that betrays a resentment toward its customer base – for whatever the reason -- runs the risk of alienating the very people they’re trying to attract.
> 
> And for what? Sure, some of those who post here may be nit-picky ingrates, but where is the upside in publically calling them on it? As a public-relations strategy it leaves something to be desired IMO.
> 
> Forums like this, by their very nature, invite discussion, debate, and yes, even the occasional criticism. Lord knows neither Frank nor Dave have solicited my opinion in this matter, but I’m going to give it anyway: If the comments posted here annoy you, keep it to yourself. To do otherwise makes you look thin-skinned and needlessly defensive.
> 
> And I say that as one who’s purchased just about every Moebius kit released to date (those stupid Flying Sub wheels notwithstanding).


Y'know, I just deleted a huge response to this whole thing. All I can say is this. Dave has been here a long time, starting with the PL board way back when. Dave is the New Product Manager here, not a PR guy. Do I have to explain why Dave is not in PR at Moebius? I didn't think so. As it was so nicely mentioned, the board is here to invite discussion, debate and criticism. Dave joined the discussion. Not as a Moebius PR representative. If you don't want Dave to discuss this with you, I can ask him not to answer anything else on the board and we can find someone that will pipe sunshine up your rearends. I think Dave has always told it like it is, for good or bad (where did I read "take the good with the bad" recently), and I'll apologize if it hurt anyone's feelings.

I'm more than happy to answer anyone's questions here, as long as they make sense. If you follow any other boards, you'll see I post more here than all others combined, multiplied a few times. It's because things are discussed here. Nothing is censored, nothing is deleted like we have been accused of having had done in the past. If you want a straight answer, here it is on Discovery and Spindrift. Can't afford to take the chance on two kits we never announced. Spindrift has been kicked around for well over a year here, and we cannot do it in the scale most requested. Way too much tooling cost, not enough potential sales. Discovery? Well I think it's been on the wish list. We're not doing it. Too much on the schedule and we're just not sure it would work for us. I think we're being as honest and forthcoming as any company can be. We never announced either just to never schedule or pull off the schedule. We have no plans for either at this time, end of story until it's revisited in the future.


----------



## Moebius

Carson Dyle said:


> And on that note, I'm going to toot ajamodels' horn for him, since he appears too modest to do so himself.
> 
> As I mentioned on another Orion thread, AJA produced what I consider to be the best and most accurate 2001 garage kit ever with his 1/48 Aries.
> 
> So what does that have to do with the Moebius Orion you may ask? Well, AJA is also serving as a consultant/ prototype designer on the re-tooled Orion.
> 
> Having met and spoken to AJA at length about this subject I know just how significant his contribution is likely to be. With one or two possible exceptions, there is NOBODY more knowledgable when it comes to the finer points of the filming miniature.
> 
> So when Moebius boasts that this will be the most accurate Orion model to ever hit the market you can pretty much bank on it.


You've got it right on that Rob, he is by far more knowledgable on the subject than most would suspect!


----------



## Moebius

JeffG said:


> Not sure if it's been asked before, but will it have the Pan Am decals as seen in the film?


Pan Am is owned by another transportation company now, so it looks unlikely. We have been kicking around some ideas, we'll just have to wait and see!


----------



## JeffG

Thanks. Kinda figured I'd have to learn Illustrator eventually!


----------



## Moebius

I would almost guarantee someone will do it if what comes in the box doesn't work for most of you. We'll post what we're doing as soon as we have a decal sheet ready...


----------



## JeffG

Thanks again. Still may learn Illustrator anyway. I think a red and white 'Virgin Airways' version might be pretty cool as well!


----------



## Carson Dyle

Moebius said:


> If you don't want Dave to discuss this with you, I can ask him not to answer anything else on the board and we can find someone that will pipe sunshine up your rearends.


I think you know that was not my point.

I for one have no need for you, Dave, or anyone else to "pipe sunshine" up my rear. Fact is, I appreciate Dave's straight, no-nonsense answers.

It's just that Dave wasn't answering a question in his last post. He was venting. And while I fully empathize with his frustration, I nevertheless question whether it's a good idea for a company representative to trade pot-shots with visitors to a company sponsored forum. Heck, if any sci-fi model kit manufacturer can afford to be magnanimous in the face of dumb questions, comments, or criticisms it's Moebius.

But, like I said, I'm not looking to stir up trouble. No one appreciates the job you guys have done more than I do, and if my comments are out of line I apologize.


----------



## Trek Ace

I have no doubt that there will be a variety of decals available about the same time, or soon after the kit is released.

Really looking forward to this one, Frank. Of course, I really look forward to _all _of your kits!


----------



## JeffG

Since the kit will feature largely on getting the overall dimensions and shapes correct and not necessarily include every panel line, what would be of great help would be if the illustrations included where those panels were so that we could either attempt to scribe them in, paint them or use a mechanical pencil to represent them.


----------



## John P

Dave Metzner said:


> Take it anyway you like, some times it gets a pretty damned agravating to sit where I do... because whenever we announce new product there are always several of you that can't be satisfied and always want more and bigger regardless of how we try to explain what does and does not make good dollars and cents for us...It's always "yeah but what if you did this or that".......
> That's how I came to take a sabatical from this board in the not too distant past and will probably be the cause of another departure for me sooner rather than later!


We love ya, Dave, don't go away.  We're just enthusiastic know-it-alls. Moebius makes us feel like kids again, complete with associated teenage whining.


----------



## Aurora-brat

Moebius said:


> Pan Am is owned by another transportation company now, so it looks unlikely. We have been kicking around some ideas, we'll just have to wait and see!


Maybe follow what Glencoe did with their release of the TWA Moonliner and the name "FASTWAY" where the modeler can cut the decal sheet to have the Pan AM name? "Pandora-American Airlines" could work.

I always thought that was very clevor of them!


----------



## Moebius

Carson Dyle said:


> I nevertheless question whether it's a good idea for a company representative to trade pot-shots with visitors to a company sponsored forum.


We actually stopped sponsoring the board some time ago, and have tried to get the name changed. We were told it's too popular to close/change, and a new sponsor was found.



Carson Dyle said:


> But, like I said, I'm not looking to stir up trouble. No one appreciates the job you guys have done more than I do, and if my comments are out of line I apologize.


No need for any apologies on your part. If Dave raised some hackles, there's not much I can say. I guess he felt the need to vent, and at some point he does get frustrated. I think at times he looks at it like kids at Christmas. They give you the list, drop hints, and most likely know what will be coming. Christmas comes, they get a great stack of stuff, but that Ferrari isn't there... You've tried to make them happy, but they still ask for something they know just isn't coming because it can't be afforded. Hope that makes some sort of sense. But hey, today's Dave's birthday! 

But seriously, thanks Rob, this is a spot for discussion, and we're not going to shy away from the ugly things that need to be answered. I just hope we can answer everything of relevance that comes up here in a timely manner and you don't have to hunt us down. Not looking to start a fight, but we do answer e-mail, phone calls, and try to stay on top of the boards. We can't be in two places at once in terms of trade show appearances, so if there are people upset about this last weekend (I know there are a few) I hope they know where to find us those other 363 days of the year outside of Chicago.


----------



## phicks

I meant no disrespect to Moebius, or Dave personally, with my question about Discovery. I bought the Moonbus, will buy the Orion, and would buy any other ships from 2001 that Moebius will produce. But if the Orion is the last in the line, so be it, and I thank you for making it. I'm sure Moebius has many other irons in the fire to produce great new kits.


----------



## Carson Dyle

Moebius said:


> But hey, today's Dave's birthday!


HAPPY BIRTHDAY, DAVE!

:hat:
:woohoo:
:hat:


----------



## John P

I still want a hoooola-hooop!!


----------



## BlackbirdCD

Just caught up on the news from iHobby. Looks like a really cool year for models!


----------



## Trekkriffic

Oh Boy! This is gonna be GREAT!!!


----------



## scotpens

Aurora-brat said:


> Maybe follow what Glencoe did with their release of the TWA Moonliner and the name "FASTWAY" where the modeler can cut the decal sheet to have the Pan AM name? "Pandora-American Airlines" could work.


That sounds like a box full of troubles if you ask me. 

Seriously, I don't see how you could do that with the Pan-Am globe logo. If a license to use the logo isn't feasible, then it looks like homemade, spare or aftermarket airline decals are the only solution.


John P said:


> I still want a hoooola-hooop!!


I'm still waiting for a pony.

But I'll settle for Rhona Mitra in a bikini.


----------



## Moebius

scotpens said:


> But I'll settle for Rhona Mitra in a bikini.


Yes, one for me too!


----------



## Carson Dyle

scotpens said:


> If a license to use the logo isn't feasible, then it looks like homemade, spare or aftermarket airline decals are the only solution.


Yeah, JT Graphics should be all over this -- and with multiple livery options.

PanAm... TWA... United... American... 

I seldom buy multiple copies of the same model, but in this case I'd be tempted to do so if I knew I had the option of varying the hull markings.

And someone should definitely look into making after-market landing gear -- and maybe a boarding ramp. Oh, and don't forget the launch vehicle...


----------



## Steve H

JeffG said:


> Thanks again. Still may learn Illustrator anyway. I think a red and white 'Virgin Airways' version might be pretty cool as well!


Say, now! I said that some time back!

It's cool, glad we got the answer.


----------



## Steve H

Carson Dyle said:


> Yeah, JT Graphics should be all over this -- and with multiple livery options.
> 
> PanAm... TWA... United... American...
> 
> I seldom buy multiple copies of the same model, but in this case I'd be tempted to do so if I knew I had the option of varying the hull markings.
> 
> And someone should definitely look into making after-market landing gear -- and maybe a boarding ramp. Oh, and don't forget the launch vehicle...


That's part of the thing I was thinking of bringing up in other places. Trying to puzzle out the complete operational cycle of the spaceplane, ya know?

Would the airline logo need to be re-applied after each landing? Or is the location specifically chosen because it's fairly 'dead' air?

and WOULD other airlines have 'gate rights' at that station? We know the Soviets had a slot, but how much traffic travels to the station? Might Pan-Am have had exclusive rights?

Blah blah blah. I wonder if the Orion III was also operated as a Hypersonic suborbital airliner...


----------



## scotpens

^^ It's been a long time since I read Arthur Clarke's novelization, but IIRC, he described the spaceplane a two-stage ship, with a winged, piloted booster vehicle that carried the payload vehicle to the threshold of space. The passenger-carrying vehicle, which we saw in the movie, would then launch itself into orbit.



> Would the airline logo need to be re-applied after each landing? Or is the location specifically chosen because it's fairly 'dead' air?


I don't know. Do the markings on the U.S. space shuttle have to be re-painted after each mission? Do they burn off during re-entry?


----------



## Dr. Brad

I read this thread, and I STILL can't believe this kit is being made! The Moonbus and the Orion space clipper within such a short period of time! Hard to believe! Even my wife can understand my enthusiasm about these! (she appreciates 2001).


----------



## Paulbo

Dr. Brad said:


> ...Even my wife can understand my enthusiasm about these! (she appreciates 2001).


My wife says "huh?" when I mention most things SF. (The closest she comes to get excited by SF is Harry Potter - and that's fantasy.)

I got a BluRay drive a month ago (thanks WG!) and she asked "why do you need a 5th copy of 2001 - you've already got 2 VHS tapes (pan-and-scan and widescreen) and 2 DVDs (original and remastered)?" She just doesn't get it.


----------



## Tim H.

Keen news, thanks Moebius :thumbsup:


----------



## Marco Scheloske

scotpens said:


> I don't know. Do the markings on the U.S. space shuttle have to be re-painted after each mission? Do they burn off during re-entry?


Well, the Space Shuttle is only "re-usable" on paper. After each mission it is completele (!) taken apart, checked, and build up again. So all the markings has to be done new for each launch.


----------



## John P

Paulbo said:


> My wife says "huh?" when I mention most things SF. (The closest she comes to get excited by SF is Harry Potter - and that's fantasy.)
> 
> I got a BluRay drive a month ago (thanks WG!) and she asked "why do you need a 5th copy of 2001 - you've already got 2 VHS tapes (pan-and-scan and widescreen) and 2 DVDs (original and remastered)?" She just doesn't get it.


What, no LaserDisc?


----------



## Trek Ace

Or LaserDisc_s_, in my case.


----------



## mach7

For aftermarket decals how about Alaska Airlines! The eskimo will fit real nice on the Orion!


----------



## rkoenn

scotpens said:


> I don't know. Do the markings on the U.S. space shuttle have to be re-painted after each mission? Do they burn off during re-entry?


I work for NASA on the shuttle at KSC and for the orbiter the markings are not repainted each flight. The name and NASA logo are in rather benign areas for thermal loads during reentry and are not damaged. On the orbiter there are actually very few items replaced due to flight damage, mainly tiles that have been dinged or damaged.

Bob K.


----------



## SteveR

Speaking of livery, how about Kulula Airlines?










Here are some more planes from Kulula.


----------



## Marco Scheloske

rkoenn said:


> On the orbiter there are actually very few items replaced due to flight damage, mainly tiles that have been dinged or damaged.


Another NASA technician, a friend of mine, told me that the main problem of the "reusable" shuttle is that it actually _isn`t_ reusable. He told me that the orbiters were always completely stripped, part for part, checked, and build up again, exchanging parts that are damaged. I also read an article once stating that it would have in fact been less expensive to simply build NEW orbiters for each flight instead of taking care of the flown ones. That is what made the Shuttle project so expensive.


----------



## rkoenn

Marco Scheloske said:


> Another NASA technician, a friend of mine, told me that the main problem of the "reusable" shuttle is that it actually _isn`t_ reusable. He told me that the orbiters were always completely stripped, part for part, checked, and build up again, exchanging parts that are damaged. I also read an article once stating that it would have in fact been less expensive to simply build NEW orbiters for each flight instead of taking care of the flown ones. That is what made the Shuttle project so expensive.


That is basically not true. They are very much labor intensive between flights but there really isn't much that is completely replaced. Systems that have failed hardware and a few items specified for replacement would be replaced each flight. We frequently also repair these failed items to reuse later. The main tires are only flown once but could likely be flown at least a couple of flights. The nose tires fly twice. The engines are removed and given in-depth inspections in the engine shop. Tiles that have damage are replaced. The payload bay has significant between flight configuration changes because each payload is unique. APUs, ECLSS systems, hydraulic systems, electrical systems, etc. are all serviced and functionally tested and consumables are serviced. It is a huge time consuming job but I doubt even 10% of the orbiter is "replaced" each mission. And if we weren't so paranoid about every little detail, somewhat justifiably so, we could do a lot less work each flight. I believe it is time for the shuttle to end and we move on to new systems capable of leaving LEO. But building a new orbiter each flight is absurd, they cost over $2B (billion) each and take years. So that story you have heard is ridiculous.

Bob K.


----------



## scotpens

rkoenn said:


> . . . But building a new orbiter each flight is absurd, they cost over $2B each and take years.


Twenty-eight dollars? That's a pretty good price for a well-detailed Shuttle Orbiter model kit! I figure you must have left off a few zeros. :tongue:


----------



## ajamodels

rkoenn said:


> That is basically not true. They are very much labor intensive between flights but there really isn't much that is completely replaced. Systems that have failed hardware and a few items specified for replacement would be replaced each flight. We frequently also repair these failed items to reuse later. The main tires are only flown once but could likely be flown at least a couple of flights. The nose tires fly twice. The engines are removed and given in-depth inspections in the engine shop. Tiles that have damage are replaced. The payload bay has significant between flight configuration changes because each payload is unique. APUs, ECLSS systems, hydraulic systems, electrical systems, etc. are all serviced and functionally tested and consumables are serviced. It is a huge time consuming job but I doubt even 10% of the orbiter is "replaced" each mission. And if we weren't so paranoid about every little detail, somewhat justifiably so, we could do a lot less work each flight. I believe it is time for the shuttle to end and we move on to new systems capable of leaving LEO. But building a new orbiter each flight is absurd, they cost over $2B each and take years. So that story you have heard is ridiculous.
> 
> Bob K.


I too work near the cape (Lockheed-Martin) and Bob K. is 100% correct. Its actually amazing how much of the shuttle comes back unharmed! The only area _really damaged _is the area underneath the front nose where heat builds up. :thumbsup: After personally attending a landing, i'm in awe at the durability of these shuttles. 
But, alas they are outdated, and maintenence is too much $$ now. 

RE: Different airlines. Please keep in mind gentlemen, that ALL airlines have copyrighted names and Trademarked logos. It would be a nightmare to license any of them.  

www.ajamodels.webs.com


----------



## Gemini1999

scotpens said:


> Twenty-eight dollars? That's a pretty good price for a well-detailed Shuttle Orbiter model kit! I figure you must have left off a few zeros. :tongue:


He didn't type 2-8 as in twenty eight, he typed 2-B as in two billion dollars. I think that you might want to give that number a closer look....:freak:


----------



## scotpens

^^ That's the last time I post on this board without my contact lenses in.


----------



## Hunch

I'm really looking forward to this release! Very nice indeed.


----------



## OzyMandias

I picked up a nice set of aftermarket decals for the Airfix kit from J-Bot. They took a while to get here, but the livery is very cool. Pan-Am, TWA, NASA the the US AirForce!


----------



## Dave Hussey

I suppose that if one included decals for the mythical aerospace partnership between Honda and Boeing (AKA, "JAPAN AMERICA"), some creative builders may find a way for that to work.

Huzz


----------



## Tiberious

So, with all these 2001 re-releases I'm wondering if there's any point in being optimistic for a Space Pod or (GASP) the Discovery being produced?

Oooooh, I'd so buy one!

Tib


----------



## OzyMandias

Dave mentioned elsewhere on the board that there were no plans at this stage for any other vehicles from 2001. He specifically mentioned the Space Pod and the Discovery.


----------



## stargazer

OzyMandias said:


> Dave mentioned elsewhere on the board that there were no plans at this stage for any other vehicles from 2001. He specifically mentioned the Space Pod and the Discovery.


 
Well there is always mine 
http://www.planet3earth.co.uk/stargazer models for sale.htm

I did offer Mobius my Discovery masters as a basis for a kit but alas to no avail


----------



## Richard Baker

stargazer said:


> Well there is always mine
> http://www.planet3earth.co.uk/stargazer models for sale.htm
> 
> I did offer Mobius my Discovery masters as a basis for a kit but alas to no avail


Things can possibly change- I remember the clamouring for a Spindrift kit- it corrupted numerous threads and now we have one in the mix. Not the big kit, but an accurate one and hopefully the beginnings of a small scale kit line of subjects from IA's world. 2001 was a classic movie not relatively unknown to most. It is a serious film with epic scope, but not the action-adventure style that is popular these days. It would not have a big market set in place like other subjects- I wonder how many people have watched the film for the first time since the Moonbus was re-released out of curiousity.
Moebius has a excellent business model and well thought out plans. I have confidence in them based on what they had done so far. They are in business to make models to sell, not satisify every dream out there, but if there is a demand for something Moebius does not ignore it. While it may take years for some things to be produced, not everything can be produced due to limited resources devoted to products which are in higher demand. I do know whatever Moebius decides to do in the future, years down the road, will be well thought out and a delight to build.


----------



## Dr. Brad

Well, I'd love a Discovery kit, but it's Frank's company and I can also see that it might not be the biggest seller for them. If it happens, I'd buy one. But for now, I'm very much looking forward to the space plane! Can't wait to see it!


----------



## OzyMandias

I just had a thought, how long would a 1/128 scale Discovery be?


----------



## Paulbo

OzyMandias said:


> I just had a thought, how long would a 1/128 scale Discovery be?


Assuming the quick number I found is right (140m), then a 1/128 scale kit would be 43 inches long. A bit on the big size.


----------



## OzyMandias

Thanks for that. I was just wondering if a range of 1/128 scale Sci-Fi (not just IA) vehicles would be of interest. 

Even at that scale, the Discovery would be a thumping big kit. I imagine tooling would be very expensive.


----------



## Marco Scheloske

OzyMandias said:


> Thanks for that. I was just wondering if a range of 1/128 scale Sci-Fi (not just IA) vehicles would be of interest.


Why this odd scale?


----------



## John P

Only because it's what they chose for the Seaview, I guess.


----------



## Trek Ace

It's not really an oddball scale at all, just not a 'common' scale for most plastic kits. 1/128 scale is 3/32" = 1'. Half the size of 1/64 scale, and one-fourth the size of 1/32. Also, a 43" _Discovery_ model would certainly not be a big kit, just a long one. Most of what makes up the length is that thin, delicate spine, with the front sphere and rear engine section being the most substantial parts. We're not talking a lot of plastic, here.


----------



## xsavoie

A between 20 to 30 inches long discovery wouldn't be too big due to it's long thin mid section.


----------



## CaptCBoard

Discovery at 1:128 scale would be 31 inches long. The CM would be 3.375 inches in diameter. An EVA Pod would be .633 inches tall.

Scott


----------



## OzyMandias

The Seaview, the small Flying Sub, Mini Sub, Apple One, and the new Spindrift that Frank and Dave announced at iHobby are all 1/128 scale. 

I just wondered how much interest there would be in a range of vehicles all the same scale. Not that this is the wishlist...


----------



## Tiberious

I have an old resin Discovery model that I got somewhere ages ago. Still unbuilt. Supposed to buy a dowel to firm it up but frankly I don't trust it enough to bother putting the effort into building it. A styrene kit however would be a lot lighter and I'd jump on that in a heartbeat. It's a gorgeous ship. And both the Discovery and the EVA Pod are icons to Sci Fi.....it's just plain wrong that there's no kits available for them!

IMO

Tib


----------



## SUNGOD

Well Moebius have said they aren't doing a Discovery so not much point in discussing it further in this thread. I know Moebius aren't doing an interior for this (I don't suppose you'd see much anyway) but I hope there's a lot more detail on the actual ship than the Aurora and Airfix ones.


----------



## flyingfrets

SUNGOD said:


> Well Moebius have said they aren't doing a Discovery so not much point in discussing it further in this thread. I know Moebius aren't doing an interior for this (I don't suppose you'd see much anyway) but I hope there's a lot more detail on the actual ship than the Aurora and Airfix ones.


Detailing an interior to the Nth degree would be pointless because as you correctly point out there wouldnt be much visible anyway, but it should be easy enough to build a basic, but fairly accurate passenger cabin with some simple styrene strips if we're so inclined.


----------



## John P

Stargazer's Orion comes with an interior. But you're right, it's hard to see. You 'd have to light the interior to see it through those tiny windows.


----------



## Old_McDonald

Does anyone know if this kit will include a display stand?


----------



## Paulbo

I don't know for sure, but I'd be willing to bet that it'll include the standard Moebius copy of the old Aurora stand.


----------



## Philster68

*Orion Space Clipper*

You might enjoy the attached photo of the Aurora Clipper..... From an old ~8x10 still of mine. Appears to be the same model used for the original box art. It's also used twice in the original instructions (model 148-130), but not shown in the instructions of the re-release.

I once purchased a sealed version of the Re-release: the laugh was on me.... The entire nose was a "short shot", making the kit useless; Now holding it keeping it for spares.

Philster68


----------



## OzyMandias

For an easy interior, one of our more talented after market providers might be able to turn up a simple cardstock colour sheet that could be folded up and set in place. As everyone has mentioned, the windows are so small, you won't see much, but the illusion of an interior might set it off nicely.


----------



## Steve H

Were I a better builder, I might be more inclined to sand all the clear parts on the inside to 'frost' them, then put a couple white LEDs in the passenger cabin and a red LED in the cockpit.

altho....

could decals be printed that would be slightly translucent, and applied to the inside of the clear parts? THEN put LEDs in? That might be a very effective look, given the scale.


----------



## Philster68

*Orion Space Clipper*

Thinking of creating an Orion launch vehicle out of my defective kit for the new Moebius release (see thumbnail). Just needs a nose-job.

Philster68


----------



## fortress

Carson Dyle said:


> Reading through this thread "ungrateful" is not the impression one is left with.
> 
> No one has a higher regard for Moebius than I do, but this is a modeling forum. Like it or not there are going to be a few posters who dare to raise questions about which kits are produced, how kits are produced, why certain kits are not produced, etc. It goes with the territory; there will always be a couple malcontents along with the scores and scores of grateful sycophants (I include myself in the latter group). A company like Moebius ought to be secure enough in its success to take the good with the bad – especially when the “bad” generally amounts to no more than some cheeky pest like me raising the specter of a large scale Spindrift model, or the like.
> 
> I have the utmost respect for Dave and Frank, and I hope they’ll take my comments in the spirit intended. I’m not trying to stir up a hornet’s nest, but I can’t help but question whether this is the right place for representatives of Moebius to vent their frustrations re: potential customers. God knows we can be an annoying lot, but a company that betrays a resentment toward its customer base – for whatever the reason -- runs the risk of alienating the very people they’re trying to attract.
> 
> And for what? Sure, some of those who post here may be nit-picky ingrates, but where is the upside in publically calling them on it? As a public-relations strategy it leaves something to be desired IMO.
> 
> Forums like this, by their very nature, invite discussion, debate, and yes, even the occasional criticism. Lord knows neither Frank nor Dave have solicited my opinion in this matter, but I’m going to give it anyway: If the comments posted here annoy you, keep it to yourself. To do otherwise makes you look thin-skinned and needlessly defensive.
> 
> And I say that as one who’s purchased just about every Moebius kit released to date (those stupid Flying Sub wheels notwithstanding).


Thank you Carson and JeffG for making valid points on what I fell is a 
somewhat difficult subject in the modeling world, This board has many
facets to it, i don't really think that any of them were designed to 
harm anybody. With that being said Since many of us are modelers
either by profession or hobby on this forum one thing we all share 
is a great love for modeling. 

To Moebius Models, since it is clear that your company dose rather
exceptional work choosing and producing model kits what you may
get sometimes from folks may sound like a complaint or an insult,
rather it is a form of respect for the work you do NOT the lack of
it. That's why they want to see more from you. that's all.

By the way I own most of Mobieus Models Sci-Fi kits and I too 
would like to see more, respectfully of course.


Thanks 

fortress


----------



## John O

I am completely stoked for this kit. I had one as a kid (can I hear an "amen, brother"?) that I lost or destoryed and the Airfix kits which seem to be falling from the trees by comparison, never lived up to the Aurora kit's ...um, sensuality. I am doubly stoked that it will be rendered with a high degree of accuracy. Keep 'em coming and I'll keep buying!!!

John O.


----------



## LeonArtO3D

*Moebius Orion errors*

Hi all,

Forgive it that I have not read this whole thread, or even most of it. Thanks to Adam K. Johnson's complaints to Luxology and me personally, I removed all the images from my thread on my Orion Project, images from the movie, the original models and any blueprints done by the studio. Then the next day I discovered that he is the modeler of the Moebius model, that it is soon to be released, and so I examined it. I see now why he was anxious for me to remove all those big closeup images of Orion, so that no one could make comparisons between the original model and this 13" kit of his.

Well, since then, I have started putting my images back up, and also have written to the principles, the actual copyright holders, with links to my thread so they can make any complains directly, if they have any. I have also detailed what I have so far found wanting with what I see of this model kit. He claimed it to be the most accurate Orion yet, but the errors I've seen are glaringly obvious to anyone familiar with this ship.

The last page of my thread is here:
http://forums.luxology.com/discussion/topic.aspx?id=50208&page=5


----------



## Moebius

LeonArtO3D said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Forgive it that I have not read this whole thread, or even most of it. Thanks to Adam K. Johnson's complaints to Luxology and me personally, I removed all the images from my thread on my Orion Project, images from the movie, the original models and any blueprints done by the studio. Then the next day I discovered that he is the modeler of the Moebius model, that it is soon to be released, and so I examined it. I see now why he was anxious for me to remove all those big closeup images of Orion, so that no one could make comparisons between the original model and this 13" kit of his.
> 
> Well, since then, I have started putting my images back up, and also have written to the principles, the actual copyright holders, with links to my thread so they can make any complains directly, if they have any. I have also detailed what I have so far found wanting with what I see of this model kit. He claimed it to be the most accurate Orion yet, but the errors I've seen are glaringly obvious to anyone familiar with this ship.
> 
> The last page of my thread is here:
> http://forums.luxology.com/discussion/topic.aspx?id=50208&page=5


As you state, this is a 13" kit, there's no amount of huge detail that can be included in something like this. As far as I know, there are no images of the actual kit out there. It hasn't been released yet. This isn't "Adam's" kit, he is not the modeler. He provided research and suggested changes to what we had. As with any reasonably priced styrene kit, compromises have to be made. I'm not interested in copyright claims, as this is a modeling board. If you have problems with Adam, I would suggest solving it off the boards with him. It doesn't really concern the Moebius kit in any manner.


----------



## LeonArtO3D

Moebius said:


> As you state, this is a 13" kit, there's no amount of huge detail that can be included in something like this. As far as I know, there are no images of the actual kit out there. It hasn't been released yet. This isn't "Adam's" kit, he is not the modeler. He provided research and suggested changes to what we had. As with any reasonably priced styrene kit, compromises have to be made. I'm not interested in copyright claims, as this is a modeling board. If you have problems with Adam, I would suggest solving it off the boards with him. It doesn't really concern the Moebius kit in any manner.


My apologies for drawing unwarranted conclusions from this:

http://www.modelermagic.com/?p=27548

Are those not the parts of this kit? I'll be buying the model in any case. It is unfortunate that he took the approach he did, posing as a principle in the matter. He will note that even in the area where he asked that I keep a particular issue a secret, that I have not published this information, as I consider it his right. Warner Bros are not concerned with my little thread. Thanks for the clarification. Best of luck with your project.


----------



## John P

:freak:


----------



## Moebius

LeonArtO3D said:


> My apologies for drawing unwarranted conclusions from this:
> 
> http://www.modelermagic.com/?p=27548
> 
> Are those not the parts of this kit? I'll be buying the model in any case. It is unfortunate that he took the approach he did, posing as a principle in the matter. He will note that even in the area where he asked that I keep a particular issue a secret, that I have not published this information, as I consider it his right. Warner Bros are not concerned with my little thread. Thanks for the clarification. Best of luck with your project.


Not final pieces. As I said, the kit hasn't been released yet. These appear to be one of the test shot sets. Changes were made everywhere along the way. A certain amount of the kit is based on his research. I know where his research came from. I'm not at liberty to say where his info comes from, but it's a pretty unimpeachable source. I honestly didn't look at what you had posted, and honestly there's only so much time in the day to run things down after a piece is done. I hope everyone is happy with it, but as I say every day - You just can't make everyone happy! But I hope we're close....


----------



## Dr. Brad

I am really looking forward to this kit! For me, "close," will certainly be good enough...


----------



## SUNGOD

It's great that Moebius is attempting 2001 kits but my enthusiasm for this has gone down after seeing those photo's. I knew there wouldn't be many engraved panel lines from the previous discussion but I'm shocked at how little detail there is..especially on the wings for instance. No panel lines at all. It looks like someone's got the Aurora one and just sanded them off.


----------



## Matthew Green

Blechh! More spaceship junk? I hope someone is buying because I sure ain't...

Give me monster figures and ghoulish goodies etc. 

The whole model world is going PG! Fancy spaceships and Atlantis' Bears etc. What's next? Brady Bunch kits? Flower kits? Kids playing in playground kits?


----------



## woof359

let's see.... a Space Pod, A chariot, a great Jupiter 2. and now 2001 kits I dont have to spend Ebay House payment prices on. Bravo to Moebius for there fine kits.


----------



## deadmanincfan

Not my cup of tea, but major kudos to Frank and Moebius for putting out another much-requested kit! :thumbsup:


----------



## Ductapeforever

To those of you with decal issues, take a look here. This site offers decals for nearly EVERY airline both past and present in several scales, includeing local small puddle jumpers. 

http://www.airline-hobby.com/shop/index.cfm?action=ViewCategory&Category=119

I for one look forward to everything Frank and Dave are involved in producing. As for your wish lists, your concerns are VERY well known. In this economy new tooling for marginaly poular kits are too big a risk. It's business, folks. Plane and simple. The biggest problem is Licensing, the costs are far too high to produce reasonably priced kits on obscure subjects.


----------



## g_xii

OzyMandias said:


> For an easy interior, one of our more talented after market providers might be able to turn up a simple cardstock colour sheet that could be folded up and set in place. As everyone has mentioned, the windows are so small, you won't see much, but the illusion of an interior might set it off nicely.


Already did it! I have the cockpit done, and a passenger cabin. And yes, they are VERY tiny! Should add a nice little bonus to the kit! They'll be on my website by the time the model comes out.

--Henry


----------



## deadmanincfan

g_xii said:


> Already did it! I have the cockpit done, and a passenger cabin. And yes, they are VERY tiny! Should add a nice little bonus to the kit! They'll be on my website by the time the model comes out.
> 
> --Henry


Speedy little rascal, aren't you, Henry? Kudos to you too! :thumbsup:


----------



## g_xii

Hi James --

Gimme a break! I only _got_ the kit to work from last week, and that is one TINY interior!!!

It's looking cool, though. And looking very inexpensive! Throw in a tiny decal set with Pan Am markings, and we should be good to go!

--Henry


----------



## deadmanincfan

Break, Henry? You're going to have a cool addition to a cool new kit on your site at basically the same time the kit comes out instead of several weeks or months down the road...take a bow, sir! THEN take a break!


----------



## falcondesigns

Matthew Green said:


> Blechh! More spaceship junk? I hope someone is buying because I sure ain't...
> 
> Give me monster figures and ghoulish goodies etc.
> 
> The whole model world is going PG! Fancy spaceships and Atlantis' Bears etc. What's next? Brady Bunch kits? Flower kits? Kids playing in playground kits?


Why bother posting if you don't like the subject.....


----------



## mach7

I don't know what all the controversy is, all I know is I want one and now I want the interior set also. 

And Matthew, I don't build monster figures or ghoulish goodies. Do I post in those threads? I think Moebius is providing for both of us just fine.


----------



## John P

Spaceship _JUNK_!? :freak:
And here I am, excited for my fellow modelers about _every _Moebius release, even the friggin trucks and stupid figure kits. 

And btw, you can't sand the panel lines off the Aurora kit - they were recessed.

Frank, I'll be getting a bunch of these to sit next to my Aurora original in various liveries. Please continue.


----------



## SUNGOD

John P said:


> Spaceship _JUNK_!? :freak:
> And here I am, excited for my fellow modelers about _every _Moebius release, even the friggin trucks and stupid figure kits.
> 
> And btw, you can't sand the panel lines off the Aurora kit - they were recessed.
> 
> Frank, I'll be getting a bunch of these to sit next to my Aurora original in various liveries. Please continue.



I haven't seen the Aurora kit in the flesh so I assumed that they were raised like the Airfix kit.


----------



## Solium

My only question is why make a brand new mold the same size as the Aurora original? Would have liked to see this new one a bit bigger. Its a cool ship! 
I imagine its the economy, plus production costs= smaller size kits. Will be purchasing this new kit all the same.


----------



## SteveR

I'm currently accurizing a Wilco Orion, but will definitely buy at least one of these. Looking forward to it!


----------



## Richard Baker

Solium said:


> My only question is why make a brand new mold the same size as the Aurora original? Would have liked to see this new one a bit bigger. Its a cool ship!
> I imagine its the economy, plus production costs= smaller size kits. Will be purchasing this new kit all the same.


IIRC technically it is a repop like the Moon Bus but reverse engineered with some improvements. Any drastic changes like doubling it's size could be considered a new kit. I am not sure, but to me it seems the ability to produce these at all is as a re-release of an originally produced kit, not a license to create whole new kits based on 'that movie'.


----------



## falcondesigns

Frank has stated that this is from new reference material,not Aurora or Airfix.


----------



## Ductapeforever

Frank, any other kit announcements for 2011 - Early 2012 we're not privy too yet?
Inquireing minds want to know.


----------



## LeonArtO3D

*Moebius Orion errors...maybe*

By now, I have read every word written here in this thread, and followed each link...we have a great community here. I do want to thank Moebius for the honesty and clarification. You can understand my confusion by what Adam had to say to me himself:

"Hi Leon, 
Your powers of research are impressive! Yes it is i who is AJAModels. I'm sure you noticed that i (also) only put pictures of my own work on the website! 
And, yes, i designed the kit for Moebius as well as the boxart. 
I'll get back to you on your question about the ring of explosive bolts on your rendering. 
Please alow me a couple of days. i'm really really, busy right now. 

Regards, 

Adam"

As far as Adam is concerned, he is an aeronautical engineer, if not an aerospace engineer, and according to my research, has spent a lot of time in Huntsville, Alabama, studying Fred Ordway's blueprints. Those blueprints are from very early in the construction of the original model, and like the Moebius kit, the filmed model has gone through many changes since that time. I'd say that any firm who took his advice could be expected to produce an accurate model to that extent, that is, as far as Adam was able to discern from all the images of Orion. Those explosive bolt configurations, for instance, would be shaped correctly. Any compromises with his design advice is a death knell.

If it were my firm, there would be no "compromises" with the model, nor the description, "the most accurate Space Clipper ever made in kit form. If it were larger, it could be considered to be called “Replica”." Every time I encounter the word compromise, and reduce it to essentials, it translates out with the same result of compromising between good and evil, food and poison, life and death. Only evil, poison, and death can result from such a compromise. 

So, maybe the flaws I spotted in the "test runs" of the kit, will have been repaired in the final version. If not, I'll be right here with my magnifying glass, my calipers, and my uncompromising philosophy. I hope my dashed hopes are proven premature.


----------



## falcondesigns

Last time I looked it was a plastic model kit..........not the next space shuttle.


----------



## iamweasel

falcondesigns said:


> Why bother posting if you don't like the subject.....


He doesn't even build them himself either.


----------



## LeonArtO3D

Adam K. Johnson is a very cool guy, and an accomplished professional, as most of you know. My earlier differences with him were due to a misunderstanding. I have verified through my extensive contacts that he is the genuine article. Even when I was pissed off at him, I liked him very much. We have repaired our differences, and all is well that ends well.


----------



## ClubTepes

Looking forward to this one as well.

Frank, hopefully this won't have the same grainy texture that the Viper Mk.II had on a lot of the surfaces.

I'm not sure where this texture comes from. As I don't see the reason to ADD it, so is it a case of them not polishing or finishing the tool, to such a degree as its not there?


----------



## Carson Dyle

LeonArtO3D said:


> (Adam) has spent a lot of time in Huntsville, Alabama, studying Fred Ordway's blueprints. Those blueprints are from very early in the construction of the original model, and like the Moebius kit, the filmed model has gone through many changes since that time.


I know Adam. Suffice to say his reference data includes, but is not limited to, the Ordway materials.

Based on Moebius' track record, and given the working realities of their business / manufacturing model, I'd say these guys know a thing or two about delivering the best possible spaceship kit for the buck, 

Furthermore, given Adam's resources, I wouldn't expect any replication discrepancies to be the result of inaccurate or incomplete Orion-related reference material(s). Rather, such "compromises" will most likely result from the tricky business of trying to faithfully recreate the studio FX miniature in significantly reduced scale. 

Will some detail be lost in translation? Of course. Will the Moebius Orion be "the most accurate Orion ever released in kit form?" Certainly it will be the most accurate injection-molded Orion we've seen. Does that mean it will flawlessly recreate the FX miniature. No, but given the scale, I expect it will come pretty close.


----------



## Dr. Brad

Matthew Green said:


> Blechh! More spaceship junk? I hope someone is buying because I sure ain't...
> 
> Give me monster figures and ghoulish goodies etc.
> 
> The whole model world is going PG! Fancy spaceships and Atlantis' Bears etc. What's next? Brady Bunch kits? Flower kits? Kids playing in playground kits?


And I hope you get the kits you desire. But when there's a great deal of excitement about an upcoming kit like this, which many thought would never see the light of day, why not be happy for them? I haven't bought all the Moebius kits (such as the LIS kits) because they don't appeal to me, or aren't in the budget, but I enjoy seeing others get excited about kits they look forward to....


----------



## g_xii

falcondesigns said:


> Last time I looked it was a plastic model kit..........not the next space shuttle.


You know, I quite like that attitude! A good point indeed! Let's all try to remember: IT'S A PLASTIC MODEL KIT!

A nice looking one, though.... 

--Henry


----------



## Gemini1999

What I don't get about some of the discussion in this thread is all the complaints about the tooling, size, accuracy, etc. of a model that hasn't been available in first run release for years. Compare it to the discussion thread of the small scale Spindrift that's basically only tinier version of the original release (sans the interior), but people are going nuts over it...

Anyone see the disconnect between the two conversation that I see? I don't get it.

Bryan


----------



## Moebius

I give up, time for me to keep off the boards for a while. Some of this has gotten so silly it's almost hard to believe. It's a plastic kit, in a very small scale. It will never be perfect, but it's the best styrene Orion that's been out. I'm not going to argue the point when everyone is an "expert" on it. Have fun with it all!


----------



## spindrift

I don't blame Frank- put out a superior product, better than anything released so far and the grumbling begins. Don't buy it. Many of us will buy and appreciate the kit. 
Gary:thumbsup:


----------



## iamweasel

There will always be a pompous donkey or two around. It does seem true that some are never happy unless they are bitc...you get it.


----------



## Carson Dyle

Embrace the positive, consider the constructive, ignore the negative.

Easy for me to say, I realize.


----------



## g_xii

Why am I hearing in my head, the haunting childhood chant of:

"You've done it now! You're in TRA-BUUUUULLLL!"


----------



## Paulbo

Argghh!!! It's shocking that Frank shares anything with what some people post.

The Orion looks flipping sweet - and most people know I'm a stickler for accurate 2001 models. (Not quite up to Adam's or Scott's level, but ...)

It's unfortunate that the few dissenting voices are always louder than the people who see something for what it is.


----------



## Zathros

*I think our "friend" matthew is simply doing what he always has done so far:

He"s the resident "dissenter"...hes done it with the Big Frankie, the Monster scenes kits, and now...the orion shuttle...I think we simply need to either ignore his comments ( so as not to magnify them")
and just take what this guy says as nothing of any import...nothing that 
gets put out that we may like, is going to please him..it would be better
if he opened his own model kit company..and based on his preferrences..I doubt it would last long...


Z
*


----------



## Paulbo

Zathros said:


> ...it would be better if he opened his own model kit company...


Funny! I *almost* wrote the same thing.

OK, I am now officially removing myself from this part of the discussion and returning to ...

We're getting an awesome Orion model!!!


----------



## woof359

*landing gear*

this is way off base, but all the chatter got me interested in watching the movie again, and watching the Clipper approach the rotating station I was wondering how Kubrick thought this ship might land, slow way down and use thruster and soft land, wheels or shids down ? I gotta dig out my Aurora and even see if there hatches molded into it for gear.


----------



## jbond

I think this stuff always comes off as much more caustic on a message board where you can't read expressions or tone of voice--criticisms tend to sound more vicious than they really are. I have gotten into numerous email arguments with my best friend of 35 years because of things we've written that sound mortally insulting as text but would come off as good-natured ribbing in person. I recommend the use of numerous smiley-faces. It's pretty sad, but they are sometimes crucial to preventing murder.

In this case, when you've put months and months of work into a product and basically as a treat for fans put out some developmental images, it has to sting to have someone say "Meh, I would have done better." Of course many people can do better when they don't have to incur the costs of manufacturing a product as opposed to spending all your free time in your basement making everything absolutely perfect on one solitary replica. The fact is by the time we are treated to these developmental images the product is probably very near to being shipped to stores, so it's kind of a waste of time to take down notes on a laundry list of complaints on the subject. My guess is this kit was done as nicely as it possibly could be without taking an unlimited amount of time and money (and without tracking down every human being who might possibly contribute ideas about it) to complete it as a product.

Ultimately if Frank produced, say, a two foot long model with complete interior details and every microscopic detail accounted for, and charged $100 for it, he would lose money. I'm assuming what we will receive will be an affordable and improved version of the Aurora kit--which wasn't all that bad to begin with.


----------



## Solium

Ive been meaning to say this for a very long time. Model kit companies produce "model kits", not "replicas". So I never really understood all this demand for a plastic kit to be "Studio" accurate. 

Sure you want it as close as possible to a studio model, but as long as it "looks like" what I saw on screen I'm happy with it. If I wanted a studio accurate kit then I guess I need to learn the skills to build one myself or pay someone else to do so.


----------



## iamweasel

Solium said:


> Ive been meaning to say this for a very long time. Model kit companies produce "model kits", not "replicas". So I never really understood all this demand for a plastic kit to be "Studio" accurate.
> 
> Sure you want it as close as possible to a studio model, but as long as it "looks like" what I saw on screen I'm happy with it. If I wanted a studio accurate kit then I guess I need to learn the skills to build one myself or pay someone else to do so.


Yup, everytime you think you've read it all, someone just has to take anal to a new level.


----------



## g_xii

Ok everybody -- Play nice -- or I'm gonna take your calipers away! 

--Henry


----------



## g_xii

jbond said:


> I think this stuff always comes off as much more caustic on a message board where you can't read expressions or tone of voice--criticisms tend to sound more vicious than they really are. I have gotten into numerous email arguments with my best friend of 35 years because of things we've written that sound mortally insulting as text but would come off as good-natured ribbing in person. I recommend the use of numerous smiley-faces. It's pretty sad, but they are sometimes crucial to preventing murder.
> 
> In this case, when you've put months and months of work into a product and basically as a treat for fans put out some developmental images, it has to sting to have someone say "Meh, I would have done better." Of course many people can do better when they don't have to incur the costs of manufacturing a product as opposed to spending all your free time in your basement making everything absolutely perfect on one solitary replica. The fact is by the time we are treated to these developmental images the product is probably very near to being shipped to stores, so it's kind of a waste of time to take down notes on a laundry list of complaints on the subject. My guess is this kit was done as nicely as it possibly could be without taking an unlimited amount of time and money (and without tracking down every human being who might possibly contribute ideas about it) to complete it as a product.
> 
> Ultimately if Frank produced, say, a two foot long model with complete interior details and every microscopic detail accounted for, and charged $100 for it, he would lose money. I'm assuming what we will receive will be an affordable and improved version of the Aurora kit--which wasn't all that bad to begin with.


 
A very good point -- it can sometimes be very hard for the casual reader to distinguish between legitimate criticism and harsh complaints. The smilies, while making older men feel like twelve year old girls, do have their place at times, and can go a long way to lending some "facial expression" to a text message. You can't be looking at someones face when you are reading their words here. Consequently, I'm often taken as being overly harsh myself when telling someone to toone it down. I try to remember to use the smilies, but sometimes we can forget.

Another good point scored for about how easy it is to offer advice and demands when it's not really your money or business at stake!

---Henry


----------



## Dr. Brad

Have I mentioned I'm really looking forward to this kit?


----------



## LeonArtO3D

woof359 said:


> this is way off base, but all the chatter got me interested in watching the movie again, and watching the Clipper approach the rotating station I was wondering how Kubrick thought this ship might land, slow way down and use thruster and soft land, wheels or shids down ? I gotta dig out my Aurora and even see if there hatches molded into it for gear.


I can't speak to the Aurora, but the studio model did not have landing gear. It did have landing gear doors. I plan to first build a duplicate of the studio model, and then one with the landing gear, the antenna (which is on the roof, not the tail, and pops up through its own little door) and other odds and ends which were left out because there was no scene in which that was called for. I've been looking at the Shuttles landing gear which can be modified to work on Orion, by extending the nose gear....I can't see this beauty bowing its nose upon landing the way the shuttle does, but that's just my opinion for my model. I'd be interesting to hear what other think about the angle of rest for Orion. There is no official version.


----------



## LeonArtO3D

Carson Dyle said:


> I know Adam. Suffice to say his reference data includes, but is not limited to, the Ordway materials.
> 
> Based on Moebius' track record, and given the working realities of their business / manufacturing model, I'd say these guys know a thing or two about delivering the best possible spaceship kit for the buck,
> 
> Furthermore, given Adam's resources, I wouldn't expect any replication discrepancies to be the result of inaccurate or incomplete Orion-related reference material(s). Rather, such "compromises" will most likely result from the tricky business of trying to faithfully recreate the studio FX miniature in significantly reduced scale.
> 
> Will some detail be lost in translation? Of course. Will the Moebius Orion be "the most accurate Orion ever released in kit form?" Certainly it will be the most accurate injection-molded Orion we've seen. Does that mean it will flawlessly recreate the FX miniature. No, but given the scale, I expect it will come pretty close.


That is most encouraging, Carson. You bring my hopes up again.


----------



## John P

Solium said:


> Ive been meaning to say this for a very long time. Model kit companies produce "model kits", not "replicas". So I never really understood all this demand for a plastic kit to be "Studio" accurate.
> 
> Sure you want it as close as possible to a studio model, but as long as it "looks like" what I saw on screen I'm happy with it. If I wanted a studio accurate kit then I guess I need to learn the skills to build one myself or pay someone else to do so.


Well, a model kit IS a replica, in the end, and I do want mine as accurate as possible. But I agree with your second paragraph.

Frank: please don't go!


----------



## Aurora-brat

It seems to me this hyper need for accuracy is an inherent part of the model building hobby itself. I must say I'm surprised that it rears its ugly head here in the sci-fi modeling world too, especially since it is after all "fiction".

If a manufacturer messes up on say a Sherman tank that is pretty inexcusable because the "real" thing exists. It is a matter of recreating the 1:1 item only smaller and within the limitations of an injection molded kit. So if a shape is wrong or detail is missing due to carelessness on the company's part, I can fully understand the need to critique.

But these are science fiction vehicles. They don't exist in real life. They are represented on the screen using models and full size props, which often don't match each other (for example the Spindrift and the Jupiter II). So the best a manufacturer can do is provide the model builder with a best guess as to what the actual vehicle would be. And still deliver it at a decent price point and hopefully make some money in the process.

Lets face it, for the majority of us, even if they did a repop of the Aurora Orion, we would be delighted to not have to pay collector prices for it to have the opportunity to build one. So what if it doesn't match the filming miniature exactly, its not like you aren't going to recognize it as the Orion right? And for those few who need perfection, knock yourselves out by spending hours adding and correcting all the miniscule details you feel must be there to satisfy your taste.

I still scratch my head when folks complain about the Aurora Spindrift. I just finished building it and so far nobody that is even remotely aware of the TV series has not recognized it. It is close enough for 99% of us out here in modeling land. 

As I suspect Moebius' Orion will be. And I for one am delighted that Frank has seen fit to do it.

Its a "hobby" folks, try to enjoy it.

Tory


----------



## Richard Baker

falcondesigns said:


> Frank has stated that this is from new reference material,not Aurora or Airfix.


I know that- same thing with the Moon Bus. It is however a reworking of an originally licensed kit. Same basic size and subject, enhanced with corrected details.
2001 is a legal nightmare of multiple parties, none of which seem to be interested in becoming involved with having officially licensed products released. The original model kits were however, and I think this is how Moebius is able to make them available again. The kits are improved, but I think any drastic changes like having the Orion become 24" long would fall outside that window.


----------



## John P

Aurora-brat said:


> *snip*


Let's just say that I disagree, though not vehemently. I build all sorts of models, and I enjoy the maximum accuracy in all genres.

People keep saying movie and TV ships are "fictional" and therefore don't exist. I say, sure they do. They exist in the form of filming miniatures, and those are what we need to be accurate to. If there was more than one miniature and there are differences between them, we either choose the favorite, best-looking of the lot, or some idealized conglomeration of the best features of all. 

The 11-foot Enterprise with series features; the 4-foot Jupiter II, the 5-foot Falcon, the 6-foot 1701-D; the 17-foot Seaview...

Maybe the issue clouds a bit with CGI models, but once they've been finalized for production, they "exist" in their own way too.


----------



## StarshipClass

John P said:


> Maybe the issue clouds a bit with CGI models, but once they've been finalized for production, they "exist" in their own way too.


And when they arbitrarily "tweak" the CGI model between movies or episodes, it really, really bugs me!


----------



## jbond

Nobody's saying "who cares about accuracy, make these sci fi models look like whatever you want because they don't really exist." What I'm saying is this is ultimately a product that has to be manufactured at a cost so that it is affordable. At some point you have to deliver the product. We have numerous examples on all these boards of people who've been working on their "ultimate" replicas of some of these subjects for years trying to get every microscopic detail right. At some point you have to deliver the product. Scale and the limitations of molds will always mean some degree of innacuracy--but there's a huge difference between something like, say, Monogram's original Galactica kit or some of Lindberg's products and what's being done now. I remember when we truly did have to "take what we could get" because there were only a couple of major styrene kit manufacturers and they didn't have a lot of interest in sci fi subjects. When you look at the range of kits we're getting now, both from styrene manufacturers and very high quality garage kit makers, this is the Golden Age of modeling. We're spoiled.


----------



## Carson Dyle

jbond said:


> I remember when we truly did have to "take what we could get" because there were only a couple of major styrene kit manufacturers and they didn't have a lot of interest in sci fi subjects.


Yeah, I seem to recall one or two accuracy issues myself...










We've come a long way, baby.


----------



## Solium

@ jbond: I think you said it better than me. Bottom line is a model kit is a "toy" you build. Its pieces of plastic you glue together. Used to be targeted at kids, now more seasoned adults. But the medium and process has its limitations. There are high priced pre-assembled replicas if that is what one is looking for.


----------



## SUNGOD

Well accuracy to the filming miniature's not the issue for me in this case as I'm sure it will be fairly accurate to the filming model from what's been said, but seeing as filming models are only usually made to look good on screen and not so much close up, I'd personally prefer what it's supposed to represent on screen. Filming models are often very crude close up with drawn on detail etc. I'd prefer more realism instead of a direct "warts and all" copy of the filming miniature that's why I prefer physical 3D panel lines and not just decals. Decals to me aren't proper detail. They're flat and one dimensional pieces of paper. Great for numbers and letters but poor for other detail.

Again, I knew there wouldn't be many engraved panel lines on this but I was *at least hoping there was as many as the original Aurora kit not less on the wings.* I also like the way the light falls on real panel lines and you don't get that with decals.

Also, with physical panel lines you can paint them in the various shades of matt light grey and matt white and there's no need to mess around with decals, there's no need to lacquer them to stay on and there's no need for a matt varnish. 

Seeing as it's a mainly white matt ship varnishing the model with matt varnish could be a problem as I've yet to see a matt varnish that doesn't yellow over time, even acrylics. The fuselage looks pretty good but again it's mainly the wings I have an issue with. 

Anyway, it's just my personal preference and I'm usually one of the first to stick up for Moebius, even when some people were moaning about Iron Mans pose. I still think it's great that Moebius are even attempting to do 2001 models, even if this one isn't quite what I was hoping for.


----------



## B-9

Carson Dyle said:


> Yeah, I seem to recall one or two accuracy issues myself...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We've come a long way, baby.


Oh man, I forgot about that one and how bad it was. The communicator was about 2 inches long. Things have definitely gotten better.


----------



## g_xii

Carson Dyle said:


> Yeah, I seem to recall one or two accuracy issues myself...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We've come a long way, baby.


Well, you hit THAT nail on the head! I remember getting this when I was a kid. I liked pretty much everything I got into my hands, but I could not believe this packaged crap! It's got to be right up there as one of the worst abuses of licensing ever in the model industry! Honestly -- I can't think of anything worse off hand!

I wish I still had it, though, as it sure would be worth a laugh!

--Henry


----------



## g_xii

SUNGOD said:


> ... Well accuracy to the filming miniature's not the issue for me in this case as I'm sure it will be fairly accurate to the filming model from what's been said, but seeing as filming models are only usually made to look good on screen and not so much close up, I'd personally prefer what it's supposed to represent on screen. Filming models are often very crude close up with drawn on detail etc. I'd prefer more realism instead of a direct "warts and all" copy of the filming miniature ...


Well, I agree with that -- after all, how many of us would be happy with crew figures for our Jupiter 2's that looked like the original figures in the 4' hero model? These things look like they were whittled in about 2 minutes out of balsa wood and crudely painted! 

However, they looked fine when you could see them on screen!

--Henry


----------



## Lee Staton

Moebius said:


> I give up, time for me to keep off the boards for a while. Some of this has gotten so silly it's almost hard to believe.


There are no perfect models...just as there are no perfect modelers!

I, for one, cannot wait to get my hands on this model! Cannot thank you, Dave, Adam, and any others involved enough!

To paraphrase the MasterCard spots: For the modeler who builds for fun, there's Moebius. For everyone else, there's AfterMarket.

Lee
Who is awaiting the insane critique of the accuracy of Elvira's boobs.


----------



## John P

jbond said:


> Nobody's saying "who cares about accuracy, make these sci fi models look like whatever you want because they don't really exist."


Nobody?
Ahem:


Aurora-brat said:


> It seems to me this hyper need for accuracy is an inherent part of the model building hobby itself. I must say I'm surprised that it rears its ugly head here in the sci-fi modeling world too, especially since it is after all "fiction"...
> ...But these are science fiction vehicles. They don't exist in real life.


That's what I was responding to.


----------



## Zathros

*when I was a "wee lad"..and came upon the aurora sci fi vehicle kits..
I thought they were great.. built them up vintage style, unpainted and simply glued together, displayed them, and even sometimes played with them, as I am sure some of you did as well..I sometimes wondered about some "innacuracies"..but for the most part, they looked reasonably close to what was being shown on my console TV screen..and even today..I still revere them for what they were intended to be .."scale models"..nothing more than that..I dont myself even mind ,( as an example) about the massive issue some have about the "teardrop shape" of the top dome on the spindrift..it may be incorrect, but its no major issue to me..to some its a big deal...and thier choice to fret over...

I can almost imagine how the execs at aurora would have reacted, if 
in thier day, they would have been deluged with all sorts of "opinions" in regards to accuracy..and if they would have done anything about it, even...my bet would be they would produce a kit in whichever way they designed it..and be done with it..

If a miniature in a movie or TV show, never landed on a planet surface, to me, then whats the big deal about "landing gear" details...? I cant see it myself..

these kinds of models, in my humble opinion,were made in thier day for KIDS..its still amazing and to thier credit, that companies like moebius PL, or pegasus even attempt to produce any kits on such old subjects...there cant be all that much money that can be made...its still a gamble no matter what..remember in auroras day , thier production runs were 60,000 pieces to start..thats a TINY fraction of production runs today..if todays companies would go so far as to put every single detail in these kits as some want..the orion would probably have a retail cost of 125.00..and there would be no point 
in even bothering to produce it..wouldnt be enough sold to make a profit..overpricing it out of the profitable market..

in the end its a question of taste...if one wants a model kit to be as accurate as possible...the model is a great start to build upon...Other than that, I dont think its productive, to keep waxing over "what could have been done to make this kit as I would like"...just "DO IT YOURSELF!!'lol..we aint kids anymore...many here have the skills 
to make whatever they wish as screen accurate as possible..

Z





*


----------



## Aurora-brat

Well said "Z". I'm certainly not saying that folks that want things super accurate are wrong, but to criticize a kit before its released because it is perceived as not meeting one's standards is a bit harsh, in my opinion. And for Frank to comment that he needs to stay off these boards is proof that the critiques have been a bit on the harsh side. Why not wait until the kit is finished and then review it. 

Unless I missed something, so far all that has been seen are some parts that were output on what I can only guess is some sort of rapid prototyping machine. These are probably pretty crude as compared to what will come out of the injection molds. So be patient and lets see what it looks like in its final form.

As far as I'm concerned, Moebius has done a HELL of a good job with everything its released prior, so my bet is that the Orion, while it may not be perfect, will surely blow the doors off of anything that came before it, Aurora or Airfix!


----------



## Ductapeforever

The 'Forrest for the trees'.


----------



## Seaview

Ditto "Forest for the Trees".


----------



## Buc

...and I thought the IPMS crowd were scary!


----------



## Richard Baker

No matter how perfect a kit may be- there is always a 'Correction Set' and a thread started about fixing the inaccuracies. I find it amazing how many kits I am happy with that I should find terrible because of poor or inaccurate detail. This is one nice thing about the internet- it lets me know how unhappy I should be with something.
Basic proportion issues are the only thing I really care about- everything else I can either adjust or ignore.


----------



## Aurora-brat

Richard Baker said:


> No matter how perfect a kit may be- there is always a 'Correction Set' and a thread started about fixing the inaccuracies. I find it amazing how many kits I am happy with that I should find terrible because of poor or inaccurate detail. This is one nice thing about the internet- it lets me know how unhappy I should be with something.
> Basic proportion issues are the only thing I really care about- everything else I can either adjust or ignore.


Thank you Richard, that was the point I was attempting to make!:thumbsup:


----------



## StarshipClass

Richard Baker said:


> This is one nice thing about the internet- it lets me know how unhappy I should be with something.


:roll:



Richard Baker said:


> Basic proportion issues are the only thing I really care about- everything else I can either adjust or ignore.


Amen, brother!



g_xii said:


> Well, you hit THAT nail on the head! I remember getting this when I was a kid. I liked pretty much everything I got into my hands, but I could not believe this packaged crap!  It's got to be right up there as one of the worst abuses of licensing ever in the model industry! Honestly -- I can't think of anything worse off hand!


But the great thing about that kit when I was a kid was that due to my lack of attention to detail and the scarcity of references at the time, I accepted the models in that kit as the standard and had fun with them--until later when I found out how bad they were.


----------



## Ductapeforever

Many of us here have been building since Moses led the folks out of Egypt, and as such have hopefully developed the skill set to 'fix' whatever problems you've discovered in your favorite kit. Personally I find little challenge building a kit from the box anymore, I look forward to cutting up a model kit like a jigsaw puzzle and adding my own little 'touches'. I've been told at many an IPMS show, "that's what makes you a world class Master Modeler." I'm quite proud of the name...after 35 years in the Industry, I've earned it, I have the awards to show for it! Now go build something....


----------



## SUNGOD

g_xii said:


> Well, I agree with that -- after all, how many of us would be happy with crew figures for our Jupiter 2's that looked like the original figures in the 4' hero model? These things look like they were whittled in about 2 minutes out of balsa wood and crudely painted!
> 
> However, they looked fine when you could see them on screen!
> 
> --Henry




That's the thing! Another miniature that I've seen close up which looked quite crude was the original Viper from Battlestar Galactica (original series). 

It had pencilled on panel lines (half of which were rubbed off) and the cockpit window looked like it had been made of that flimsy plastic that food comes wrapped in, all warped and discoloured. The pilot wasn't much better than those figures you've posted either.


----------



## SUNGOD

Richard Baker said:


> No matter how perfect a kit may be- there is always a 'Correction Set' and a thread started about fixing the inaccuracies. I find it amazing how many kits I am happy with that I should find terrible because of poor or inaccurate detail. This is one nice thing about the internet- it lets me know how unhappy I should be with something.
> Basic proportion issues are the only thing I really care about- everything else I can either adjust or ignore.




I'm sure the basic proportions on this will be accurate looking at those photo's.


----------



## Carson Dyle

SUNGOD said:


> Another miniature that I've seen close up which looked quite crude was the original Viper from Battlestar Galactica (original series).


Yeah, those things were downright embarrassing.

There's some fine model-making craftsmanship on display in BS:G (TOS), but you'd never know it from looking at the Viper miniatures. The painting/ weathering/ finishing is as crude as anything I've ever seen from a pro shop.


----------



## scotpens

Richard Baker said:


> falcondesigns said:
> 
> 
> 
> Frank has stated that this is from new reference material,not Aurora or Airfix.
> 
> 
> 
> I know that- same thing with the Moon Bus. It is however a reworking of an originally licensed kit. Same basic size and subject, enhanced with corrected details.
Click to expand...

No, the Moonbus was reverse-engineered from the parts of an existing Aurora kit (the Aurora molds no longer exist), with improvements like accurized windows and the addition of some locator pins and tabs that weren't on the original kit. The new Orion, as I understand it, is a completely new tooling from new patterns, not a re-released or back-engineered Aurora kit.



g_xii said:


> I remember getting this when I was a kid. I liked pretty much everything I got into my hands, but I could not believe this packaged crap! It's got to be right up there as one of the worst abuses of licensing ever in the model industry! Honestly -- I can't think of anything worse off hand!


How about the AMT Galileo kit?


----------



## Solium

Carson Dyle said:


> Yeah, those things were downright embarrassing.
> 
> There's some fine model-making craftsmanship on display in BS:G (TOS), but you'd never know it from looking at the Viper miniatures. The painting/ weathering/ finishing is as crude as anything I've ever seen from a pro shop.


It was not crude work. They purposely "over weathered" and "slopped up" the models so detail would show up on small television screens. I remember reading this in some magazine at the time of the series.


----------



## SUNGOD

Solium said:


> It was not crude work. They purposely "over weathered" and "slopped up" the models so detail would show up on small television screens. I remember reading this in some magazine at the time of the series.



Both you and Carson are correct. The miniature work was brilliant in the show and yes the vipers were purposely weathered but some of them were very crudely done but they looked great on screen.


----------



## Carson Dyle

There's good weathering for TV and bad weathering for TV, and the weathering found on the Vipers falls squarely into the latter category.

Hell, I know some former Apogee model makers who worked on that show, and even _they_ admit the Vipers looked like crap (not that they'd ever go on the record).


----------



## g_xii

scotpens said:


> How about the AMT Galileo kit?


Ahhh.... another goodie! But, still no where near as bad as the Exploration kit! The Galileo kit, while highly innacurate, was still an easy and fun build for a kid, and from across the room, if you did not look to closely, it resembled the prop pretty well!

--Henry


----------



## Richard Baker

scotpens said:


> No, the Moonbus was reverse-engineered from the parts of an existing Aurora kit (the Aurora molds no longer exist), with improvements like accurized windows and the addition of some locator pins and tabs that weren't on the original kit. The new Orion, as I understand it, is a completely new tooling from new patterns, not a re-released or back-engineered Aurora kit.


My point was not about the _process_ on how the Moebius kits are created but the results. Both kits are reflections of the original licensed kits, not rescaled and uber-detailed as with the large Flying Sub.


----------



## falcondesigns

.....


----------



## SteveR

I'm in the "engraved panel lines" camp, but I understand how it might be difficult to make them fine enough for this scale yet stay within budget for tooling. The existing kits' lines are overscale, IMO, but that's the way it goes.

Moebius made a choice, and I support it. After all, we can always scribe them in using the decals as a guide, as suggested.


----------



## Carson Dyle

Moebius' decision will have saved me the time and effort required to putty in panel lines that, as far as I'm concerned, shouldn't have been there in the first place (given the scale).

There are all kinds of ways to achieve a paneled effect without actually resorting to engraved lines in the tooling (although if you _want_ engraved lines the reverse edge of a broken Xacto blade will certainly do the trick).

Thanks again Moebius for making what I consider to be a very good call.


----------



## Hunch

Carson Dyle said:


> Moebius' decision will have saved me the time and effort required to putty in panel lines that, as far as I'm concerned, shouldn't have been there in the first place (given the scale).
> 
> Thanks again Moebius for making what I consider to be a very good call.


Took the words right out of my mouth:thumbsup:.


----------



## John P

I actually like the look of the engraved line on the Aurora kit, but it
s not gonna kill me to paint various shades and pencil this one. Probably even be fun.


----------



## Lee Staton

Right there with ya, John P. I think the fun will be in the customizing. (But I always think that.)

Much as I love the big mega-kits (Seaview, Flying Sub, Jupiter 2) I can sure respect Moebius for releasing more different kits in smaller sizes. The Space Clipper and the Spindrift look wonderful; so do the smaller Space Pod and Chariot.

I'm excited about the size, cost, and accuracy of the Orion/Space Clipper. Makes it affordable to customize and take some chances. I'm eager to see someone design the lifting body for it.

Really nice bookshelf models are extremely welcome!

Lee


----------



## miniature sun

I agree with Lee....I've only got limited space for large scale kits, especially as I like to build them into dioramas...I'm already planning one for the Orion and if it was any larger than it is I'd have to contemplate moving house!


----------



## Carson Dyle

Lee Staton said:


> RI'm eager to see someone design the lifting body for it.


Me too!

I know of at least one knowledgable and reputable source that's planning an aftermarket customizing kit with which to convert the Moebius clipper into the accompanying "piggyback" vehicle (based upon the sketch found on Doug Trumbull's site).

I assume an official announcement will be made sometime after the release of the Moebius kit. Stay tuned!


----------



## John P

Carson Dyle said:


> Me too!
> 
> I know of at least one knowledgable and reputable source that's planning an aftermarket customizing kit with which to convert the Moebius clipper into the accompanying payload vehicle (based upon the sketch found on Doug Trumbull's site).


This one?
(ths is Stargazer's 1/144 kit)
http://www.inpayne.com/models/stargazer-orion2a.html


----------



## Carson Dyle

No, the kit I'm thinking of is the "piggy back" vehicle for the Orion.


----------



## Philster68

*Orion Piggyback*

A sketch from Mr. Trumbull's site of the Piggybacked Orion is posted on page 10 of this thread.


----------



## LeonArtO3D

Now, _that_ is some very good news indeed! As obscure as some aspects of Orion has been over the years of slow discovery, the launch vehicle has been only this very rough sketch. If there are other drawings that have not been made public, and there must have been, then details could be gleaned. I can't help but think of Adam Johnson in this context, though that is without any evidence, beyond the fact of his work with Ordway's blueprints. Who ever you are, thanks!

I, myself, have thought to do something with this, after I complete my Orion III project, but what, I have no idea. I did notice that in that sketch, the boarding tube is located in the wrong side of the craft, where there is no door. This made me think it was a very hurried sketch, which was only thought about clearly after it went to press. But again, I know nothing of the history surrounding this idea, other than its mention in the book by Clark. We do know there was a split at some point in the formulation of this launch concept, and this concept was dropped and the vehicle separation was conceived, as illustrated in Filming the Future. That got dropped also, for the filming. I suspect we will have to wait until David Larson's historical masterpiece is published to find out more details.

Just one final comment...I've just acquired the second edition of 2001: filming the Future, by Piers Bizony from Aurum Press. I am thrilled with it of course, but I can't hide my disappointment at the low resolution imagery they used to print those images, and the small number of pages (164). I have it on high authority, that the Larson book will not be so chinchy. with image resolution. Also, it will be much bigger in all dimensions, 11' X 17" X 500+ pages. Now those are some impressive stats! It will do justice to the film of the century.


----------



## John P

Philster68 said:


> A sketch from Mr. Trumbull's site of the Piggybacked Orion is posted on page 10 of this thread.


We're only on page 9 on my browser.
Waht's the post number?


----------



## Bruce Bishop

John P -

This should be a link to the picture you are asking about, I got the url from page 10.

http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/attachment.php?attachmentid=120543&d=1289612919


----------



## John P

Thanks!


----------



## fortress

Carson Dyle said:


> Reading through this thread "ungrateful" is not the impression one is left with.
> 
> No one has a higher regard for Moebius than I do, but this is a modeling forum. Like it or not there are going to be a few posters who dare to raise questions about which kits are produced, how kits are produced, why certain kits are not produced, etc. It goes with the territory; there will always be a couple malcontents along with the scores and scores of grateful sycophants (I include myself in the latter group). A company like Moebius ought to be secure enough in its success to take the good with the bad – especially when the “bad” generally amounts to no more than some cheeky pest like me raising the specter of a large scale Spindrift model, or the like.
> 
> I have the utmost respect for Dave and Frank, and I hope they’ll take my comments in the spirit intended. I’m not trying to stir up a hornet’s nest, but I can’t help but question whether this is the right place for representatives of Moebius to vent their frustrations re: potential customers. God knows we can be an annoying lot, but a company that betrays a resentment toward its customer base – for whatever the reason -- runs the risk of alienating the very people they’re trying to attract.
> 
> And for what? Sure, some of those who post here may be nit-picky ingrates, but where is the upside in publically calling them on it? As a public-relations strategy it leaves something to be desired IMO.
> 
> Forums like this, by their very nature, invite discussion, debate, and yes, even the occasional criticism. Lord knows neither Frank nor Dave have solicited my opinion in this matter, but I’m going to give it anyway: If the comments posted here annoy you, keep it to yourself. To do otherwise makes you look thin-skinned and needlessly defensive.
> 
> And I say that as one who’s purchased just about every Moebius kit released to date (those stupid Flying Sub wheels notwithstanding).


Well stated and well thought out, now the question is will they listen when it is in thier best interests as well is ours?


fortress:dude:


----------



## Buc

"If the comments posted here annoy you, keep it to yourself."

let me get this straight... you can post your comments, but Moebius
(and us, I quess) have to keep ours to ourselves?!

hmmmm..


----------



## Hunch

I'm running low on shelf space and the wife cringes when I bring home a new kit, but since she met Frank and thought he was a cool guy I just say "This is one of Franks new kits honey" and she has no problem with it! Win/win situation over here so I'm looking forward to the Orion with bells on! The test shot I saw looks out of this world, and heres to hoping (i can hope, cant I?) he can squeeze a couple more kits from the film in sometime in the future. Great job Frank/Dave and co.!


----------



## John P

Now I have to build an Orion with bells on it.


----------



## SteveR

John P said:


> Now I have to build an Orion with bells on it.


John, you sleigh me!


----------



## Carson Dyle

Buc said:


> "If the comments posted here annoy you, keep it to yourself."
> 
> let me get this straight... you can post your comments, but Moebius
> (and us, I quess) have to keep ours to ourselves?!


My remarks, now several weeks old, were respectfully intended for Frank and Dave, who appear to have taken them in the spirit intended. At any rate, my post speaks for itself, and I stand by my comments.

As for your comments, I honestly couldn't care less. So long as you're not in violation of the forum guidelines you should feel free to post whatever you want as far as I'm concerned (Frank and Dave may feel differently, of course). 

The freedom to voice an _informed and reasonable_ opinion, even a critical one, is one of the things I was trying to make a case for. I just hate to see Frank and Dave get all hot and bothered over something they have no control over, i.e. the "fan" reaction to their kits. Better to focus on the positive, do the best work they can, and hopefully have some fun making cool stuff which the vast majority here appear to really appreciate. 

And, you know, if the guys can pocket a few bucks in the process, all the better.


----------



## Tim H.

Imma just happy the Orion is coming out again, thanks :thumbsup:


----------



## John O

Tim H. said:


> Imma just happy the Orion is coming out again, thanks :thumbsup:


Double ditto!!!

John O.


----------



## Carson Dyle

Carson Dyle said:


> I know of at least one knowledgable and reputable source that's planning an aftermarket customizing kit with which to convert the Moebius clipper into the accompanying "piggyback" vehicle (based upon the sketch found on Doug Trumbull's site).
> 
> I assume an official announcement will be made sometime after the release of the Moebius kit. Stay tuned!


As promised...

http://ajamodels.webs.com/apps/webstore/products/show/2157893

I spoke to Adam this AM, who confirmed that this will be a highly detailed resin add-on kit with which to "retro-fit" the Moebius Orion into the aforementioned piggyback vehicle.

Having purchased a couple of Adam's other "2001" kits I can vouch for the detail, crispness, accuracy, and value of his products.

He also mentioned having created a decal sheet containing a variety of complete livery markings (PanAm, etc.), and that these will be available soon via the CulTVman site.

COOL STUFF!!!


----------



## =bg=

Wow, where have I been---didn't know this was coming. When will it be in stores and what is the cost?


----------



## Richard Baker

That booster is an interesting design. While it may not be canon to that sketch
http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/attachment.php?attachmentid=120543&d=1289612919
I think I will modify a second Orion to mount 'belly to belly' underneath the orbitor. To me having an almost flat underside with some greebly calls for a flat mounting on the booster as opposed to a stacked piggyback with two upright ships.


----------



## John P

I'm remembering some kind of wraparound fuel tank for the dern thing from some publication many years ago. Or am I?


----------



## StarshipClass

John P said:


> I'm remembering some kind of wraparound fuel tank for the dern thing from some publication many years ago. Or am I?


I'm thinking a space shuttle fuel tank would look good, too.


----------

