# New timing software prog in progress



## Montoya1 (May 14, 2004)

along with several others, I have been assisting a chap in the USA on a new
piece of freeware timing software. Up to version 6 now, but lots of development still to come.

What the guy needs though is as many people as possible trying it out and
suggesting ideas. Where he is now pretty much any idea will be considered. The prog already has features that no other can boast, and sophisticated rotations,heats, finals etc will be added. 

Early evidence is that this could well end up being the dogs do-dahs. There _is_ a demo mode, so you can do as I am and try it on the home computer.

PM me for details.


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

Is this LapTimer2010?


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## Montoya1 (May 14, 2004)

Nope. An all new prog already rich in both features and potential.

Where can one learn more about LapTimer2010 then?


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

Is this a windows based system? If so, what version of Windows?


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

Currently needs XP minimum to run, that may change in the future.

Deane I don't mean this to sound nasty but unless you were specifically told to spread this news, or especially to be redistributing the betas, I don't know that I'd be causing a ruckus here and about, the programmer wants some assistance not pressure.


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

No pressure, I just need it as soon as possible. 

Like, yesterday.


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## sjracer (May 25, 2008)

I'd love it if it could also be used for drag racing perhaps reaction time, win, et.


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## Montoya1 (May 14, 2004)

Dave specifically said to spread the word. What possible rukus could I be causing anyway?

Now is the time to get features added that other progs don't do, to suggest ideas, and to help test - so the more the merrier.

If anyone tries to give Dave pressure I think I know him well enough from our emails to say he will give them a polite but firm cyber thick ear.


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

Then I would say drag racing timing would be a plus, along with the sound effects that go with it.


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## daufderh (Jul 30, 2010)

Hey I just got wind of this posting. Spreading the word is a great thing, but I don't have time to bounce between several sites and forums. If you're interested in this software I suggest following the thread on SCI. Sadly I'm too new to this site to post the link so somebody else will have to (assuming it's allowed).

Any postings I make will be done there including new release announcements, feature changes, etc... It's the only place that I will be monitoring regularly. If you're not posting over there, please don't assume I have a clue what's going on over here.

-Dave


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## Montoya1 (May 14, 2004)

Dave,

So as not to offend HT by posting a link , I placed a request in the opening post that people PM me for more details of the software, and have done the same on some other forums. Plenty of nibbles so far....

Regds - Deane


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

Yes, TrackMate is long in the tooth when it comes to its UI paradigm because it is barely even using Windows 95 styles. It's all straight Win32 GDI code because it was written when quad core 2.8 GHz processors were only a dream and clock cycles still mattered. It could use a UI refresh and no doubt that throwing some newer technology like WPF or even Winforms at it would easily pump it up in the eye candy department. But for single race management and race support, Trackmate is still among the best because the business logic that it is based on came from racers who actually use the product. Yes, you have to pay for TrackMate because the people who develop, maintain, and support its HW and SW for a living have families to feed and mortgages to pay. In return we get dedicated support and attention for what is at best a niche product in a nice hobby. In terms of symbiosis in our little ecosystem, TrackMate delivers and we are mutually benefitting from its availability and stability.

If you are talking about the future of total race management software as opposed to simply lap counting and timing, now I would be very interested if you were talking about real USB driver support (not USB-to-serial kludges), a web based client or platform independent smart/thin client using a popular RIA technology like Silverlight or Flash, and cloud based race data and season stats management now that would be a game changer. If we're talking about yet another fat/thick client based on the massive .NET or Java J2SE framework and requiring a specific host OS, or worse yet dragging in legacy ports like serial, parallel, or game port - then I see little compelling reason to switch away from TrackMate to something else for fancier graphics. It's not a game changer if it doesn't change how we play the game. 

As I mentioned four or five years ago, we should be keeping an eye on the smart RFID tags that Wal-Mart is planning to put on every article they sell. They start deploying these next month. These are small and cheap enough to afford placing one one on every car. With a suitable proximity reader detector this technology could change the way we track the cars. Coupled with a low cost vision system, who knows what can be done.

I think any halfway decent modern programmer can come up with a TrackMate replacer. Great working model and functional specification to start from. The tools are all there and the CPU grunt means you don't even have to be clever. I've thought of doing it too. But why? If you have excess cycles to spare and are excited by programming in this domain, why not look at something that extends the state of the art and provides some stimulus for moving the hobby in a new direction or attracts new fans? I think there are evolving trends in our culture that would weave nicely into both the hobby and the technology. Counting and timing laps and running races is a small part of the puzzle and there are bigger opportunities to explore with technology tools providing the stimulation.


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

To me, other than sound effects, the Windows based programs haven't offered anything better than the DOS programs.
New technology would be a breath of fresh air.

AFXtoo, you get my vote to program the next great slot car program.
Why don't ya?

You could make the RFID tags in lane colors, and use them instead of colored dots.
With that technology, could you put the sensors under the track?
Would the cars magnetic fields interfere with the RFID signal?

Hmmm.... ideas. Tippecanoe and AFXtoo!
Rich
www.northtexasslotcars.com


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## slotcarman12078 (Oct 3, 2008)

Hey, I just had a wacky idea, and this is the place to throw it out here..... What if......

2, 4, 6 or maybe even 8 guys set up identical tracks in different locations, and were all linked by the same racing program. The racing could be monitored at all locations via web cam, and recorded and shown on split screens on their computer monitors. Each driver would be timed running at their own track, but racing with all the other guys at the same time. They would all have to have the same track set up, and sectional track would make the most sense. I know it's a goofy idea, but it sounds fun anyway.


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

Wow, and International Race Station!


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

> AFXtoo, you get my vote to program the next great slot car program.
> Why don't ya?


This is somewhat of a complex issue for me. First of all if I had more free time I would participating in more racing, tuning on my cars, building a new track, and helping my local race group and hobby shop get more racers out to the track and excited about the upcoming season and the weekly racing programs. Developing software is real work, something that pays the bills and then some, but for my current recreational needs, the current offerings are more than adequate. I truly appreciate what it takes to develop and support something like TrackMate and I gladly hand over the small amount that they charge in return for a very reliable and highly functional product that I can just use straight out of the box. Our hobby is very small and we need to support the vendors who are delivering good value at a fair price. 

Second, I have no desire to take away business from any of the commercial vendors by giving away something for free that they are counting on to make a living. If I was trying to make money on the product, if I was paying for the development tools needed to build it, and if I was putting it all on the line to compete head to head, then maybe I'd look at this completely differently. 

The current crop of racing software packages are very much standalone, hardwired, bolted to the track, dependent on obsolete PC systems, and designed for managing the proceedings of one race session. If I had the time and inclination to develop software for the hobby in my spare time and at my own expense then I would be much more inclined to satisfy unfulfilled needs, head in new directions, and not replicate a feature that is already available. What are some of the things that the current commercial vendors do not provide? What are the characteristics of the current products that are clumsy or maybe even scare new people away? What are some of the emerging technologies, say mobile platforms and interactive social media sites, that could provide benefits to race groups and basement racers if tied to the race management system?


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## Montoya1 (May 14, 2004)

Whilst I make a point of never disagreeing with the bones of what Too says when he posts, so on the money is he always, all I can say is I have been playing around with this new prog a fair bit and now have it so that it can run all the heats with the sophisticated EAHORC rotation in use, add part laps as I go, and display a leaderboard which drops worst score on the fly...


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

Montoya1, it's perfectly fine to disagree when there is mutual respect. I also value your opinion and have a high regard for your contributions to the hobby. We're cool. We also have a different perspective and we've all kind of gotten to know each other over the years on the boards and that goes a long way and carries a lot of weight. 

I know there is a certain tension in the hobby between innovation and basic survival and preservation of what we already have. We see it played out in every aspect of the hobby from cars to magnets to tracks and to software tools. I don't know what the magic formula is, but I do want to see a reward system for those who have contributed for a long time. 

I also want to see us come up with ways to spread the word and make it easier for new people to get interested in the hobby. I don't think, but I could be wrong, that it is all about "build it and they will come." I think we have to go looking for them, and if we can use technology to help make our hobby more appealing and inclusive, I am all for it. That's the main reason that I want to see innovation directed in new directions instead of incremental change.


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## Montoya1 (May 14, 2004)

For sure there is a lot more stuff I would like to see.

Sensors in the cars, realtime data fed to websites and social sites, screens for the pits area and seperate screens for the drivers (how about audio of lap times and gaps fed to headphones), sector times, lap charts created in real time, season stats, you name it.

How about tiny overhead lights that shine the lane colour onto the track whenever the sofware detects a car has de-slotted, so the track does not have to be painted, or of course the big one, digital HO.

Bring it on, but in the meantime I will tweak what we already have.

Somebody please tell me more about those RFID tags...


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## Montoya1 (May 14, 2004)

Race Coordinator now has a dedicated website where future versions will be available for download.

http://rc.h0slot.ch/


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## Cenobyte (Mar 15, 2009)

It's always nice to see another player in the field :thumbsup:

Since I have a 10 year experience with writing timing software for slot racing (Slot Race Manager freeware), there is one thing I always kept in mind and hopefully the developer of this software will put it high on his list too: how accurate is your timing? It's not hard (heck, it's very easy) to write timing software that gives you the feeling that you are actually timing in an accurate manner, but you might want to test this, since I do have very bad experience with lots of timing software, especially the ones running on a graphical user interface (GUI) like Windows.

You can test the accuracy of your timing software very easily: take a battery clock that has a hand indicating seconds and add something to the hand so it can trigger a (light) sensor on your track (stick a piece of paper to it that blocks your sensor once every 60 seconds). The hand will travel around in 60 seconds so your laptimes should indicate 60.000 seconds if your software is 100% accurate. However, this is not how you can measure your software's accuracy. For this you will need to let it run a race for 30 minutes, so you will have around 30 laps each 60 seconds long. Now check how far apart your laptimes are? With my DOS version of Slot Race Manager, I manage to have a 0,005 second gap between the longest and the shortest lap. I tested a well known Windows slot race timing program and that had a couple of laps that were 0,070 seconds off!! Probably due to all kinds of stuff running in the background, which is IMHO the biggest drawback of running timing software on a GUI: it can really mess up your timing!

Believe me: if I hadn't run into this problem, there would already be a SRM3 for Mac and Windows by now (I started development long ago, but inaccurate timing stalled it).


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## demether (Aug 26, 2008)

In my opinion, it's great to create new timing software, for all people needs. 

I also started with windows softwares. I thought it should be easier to manage. I was wrong 

Then I installed SRM : using the software with just a keyboard make the things faster and easier. not need to install a desk for the computer. I hided it under the track, and use a long cable keyboard. I switch the PC on, after a few seconds (yeah, dos is very fast) SRM appears, I push 2-3 keys, I race. Simply as that. 

the database ? Once again, on the windows programs I tried, it always was too complicated for me. Ingeneer stuff I guess  On SRM, it's simple and fun. And almost everything is made automatically once you entered the cars and track specs. 


the graphics ? On windows programs I tried, the "fancy" graphics weren't so readable, when you were racing. On SRM, simple big numbers, same colors as the track lanes, on a black backgroung. "serious" Club racing feeling, but at home. You can read the race infos in a second during the race, no fancy stuff will catch your attention. 


the last thing I love, is the accuracy. With experience, you can feel it. Sometimes I take my favorite magnet car, and do time attack. You know how it is, you're fully concentrate and after a few laps you're almost hypnotized. If you know well the car and track, you rapidly make scratchs times, in the same 1/10 second each lap. 
And sometimes, you feel that you've been really fast on the last lap. Wow, SRM says that you gained 0.080seconds. And you felt it. Difficult to explain. But on a "short" track (10-12 meters) with fast h0 cars, you feel it. 


the only issue on SRM (as I said before to the author) is the lack of sound indicator for single time attack. 



But it's a very personal opinion, I believe another guy will certainly say exactly the opposite...it's why it's cool to see timing softwares on other plateforms, with diferent ways to manage it, to answer all the community needs. :thumbsup:


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## Rolls (Jan 1, 2010)

My experience in lap timing counting sw is limited to LT2000, and is generally positive, but I have spent hours scouring the forum and all kinds of people have all kinds of problems getting set up, verified and working. You can't use software if you can't get it to work and you shouldn't need to be an expert to get started with it. 

So I'd suggest that any counter/timing software have a well thought out and robust test and setup (and debug) mode, so any Joe could easily follow each step and verify it as they get their sensors, alignment/sensitivity, ports, connections and configuration switches dialed in. 

I think it would help adoption and then after a system is in regular use, it could rigorously validate and demonstrate that the system is working correctly at race time. Or any time a gantry gets bumped or a wire gets tugged somehow by kids/pets/adults over the years. Or when a new/different type of chassis/body is introduced to the track.

Basically, take all the stuff that should function invisibly during normal use of the system and make it exceptionally visible for initial setup as well as periodic validation. Seems like it would help, at least that's my barely informed sense of things.


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## Wizard Of Iz (Sep 8, 2006)

slotcarman12078 said:


> Hey, I just had a wacky idea, and this is the place to throw it out here..... What if......
> 
> 2, 4, 6 or maybe even 8 guys set up identical tracks in different locations, and were all linked by the same racing program. The racing could be monitored at all locations via web cam, and recorded and shown on split screens on their computer monitors. Each driver would be timed running at their own track, but racing with all the other guys at the same time. They would all have to have the same track set up, and sectional track would make the most sense. I know it's a goofy idea, but it sounds fun anyway.



This is already available through Carsten's LapMaster software. And, in his system the tracks don't have to be the same setup. You can hold an event on everyone's home raceway where you're all competing against the Track Record for that track. The scoreboard then reflects everyone's performance on a common scoreboard.

LapMaster already has a website where you use a UStream feed (free) to show the race (with a chat room) and the leader-board appears on the right half of the screen.

The system was just used very successfully at Dallas Slots . Just click on the Live Timing & Video link on the left side of the screen.

And, you can use modern computers with XP, Vista, or Windows 7. Here's a link to the manual. LapMaster Manual . Lots of features like the ability to print a certificate for the Podium finishers and the ability to be notified any time a new track record is set for a particular lane.


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## Cenobyte (Mar 15, 2009)

I don't like to see these kind of screens:










You can see multiple lanes with similar times here. With real 0,001 second timing resolution that's impossible to realise, unless timing is very inaccurate.


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## Montoya1 (May 14, 2004)

How did you generate that screen?


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

It's a screencap from the LapMaster site.


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## Cenobyte (Mar 15, 2009)

Since I was investigating this stuff anyway, I built myself a test setup, also to test my own written Windows timing routine's accuracy (the one I wanted to use in SRM3 for Windows).

I used a analogue clock to test. The hand that shows the seconds passes the sensor every 60 seconds for accurate laptimes. The goal is not to approach 60 seconds as close as possible, because I don't know how accurate the clock is, but to see what the difference is between all the recorded laps. This illustrates how accurately the software measures the laps.

This is what I got with *Laptimer 2000*:










As you can see, the difference between the fastest and the slowest times is:
59,998 - 59,973 = 0,025 seconds.

I repeated the same test with SRM2 for DOS:










As you can see the difference between fastest and slowest lap is:
59,988 - 59,975 = 0,013 seconds.

So SRM2 is almost twice as accurate as Laptimer 2000!

Here is the result of my own Windows timing routine:










As you can see the difference between fastest and slowest lap is:
60,007 - 59,979 = 0,028 seconds.

As you can see: my own results are just as bad as those of Laptimer 2000, leaving me to conclude that this is definately a problem having to do with the graphical user interface called Windows.

I also wanted to test several other programs, but this soon triggered my Windows-hate again...

*Ultimate Racer 3.0* looked nice, but crashed as soon as a car passed the sensor. I tried everything including repeated reinstalls, but probably there is some external DLL file missing as I couldn't get it to work.  

The same trouble with *Cockpit V2*: I installled the demo version and after some German gibberish (annoying) it reported that the program couldn't start up and that a reinstall was the way to go. Three reinstalls later I decided to quit.  

*TURM* also greeted me with a Windows error that revealed nothing about the source of the problems. Only that I needed to quit the program.


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## Montoya1 (May 14, 2004)

SwamperGene said:


> It's a screencap from the LapMaster site.


Yes, but is that an actual race being timed, or is the prog just in demo mode?


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

Good points C. Thanks for the research.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

Any timing application that is built on a general purpose computing platform is going to have some weakness (expressed as randomness in processing and/or measurement) that can be exploited by the right evaluation criteria. Whether it's hardware, firmware, or software, at some level you will find that there is some process or function that places a hard limit on your ability to obtain both *accuracy and precision* for recurring multiple lane timing measurements performed using just the facilities the general purpose computing platform provides. If you really need millisecond accuracy for the recurring timed event then you need the complete timing system to be accurate and precise in the tens of microseconds range (worst case) to ensure that the randomness related to the detection and measurement of the events is acceptable noise in the overall timing function.

By accuracy I mean how close to the actual timing of the event, the car arriving at the sensor and a time stamp being applied to the event can the overall system support? If you have random latencies in the detection processing, latencies in obtaining the time stamp, etc., then the accuracy will be impaired. By precision I mean what is the resolution between the measurement and repeatability of subsequent timed events? Again, the random latencies affect you here, but precision is also affected by the frequency, resolution, and accuracy of the clock or time reference. As an aside, on Windows there are a couple of clocks available to the programmer. The high resolution one is very precise but getting at it involves more processing latencies, so using it involves tradeoffs.

The timing program should never display more digits (implied precision) than the accuracy and precision of the measurement can justify. It's obvious from some of the screen shots that this practice is not always followed. Likewise, timing program developers should probably do a better job of disclosing the accuracy and precision of their product if they are making claims about the performance of their offerings. The caveat here is that no general purpose computer is a great timing device if you have very demanding requirements. You can play more games with some of the more primitive systems to tweak the onboard timer reference (more precision) but the random latencies and other limitations like the ability to detect coincident events is still a limitation. But does this mean you should not use a general purpose computer for timing slot car races? Absolutely not. Just don't go thinking that you are going to transform a PC into some sort of magic piece of precision instrumentation. A purpose built piece of timing hardware will blow the doors off of any PC based system. 

Now that we know that any timing system based on a general purpose computing platform has inherent limitations, which for the most part we are willing to live with, let's look at the other aspects of a full featured racing program. After all, if it was only about the timing and counting we'd all be using TrixTrax units. This is where the general purpose computer really shines. Whether we're talking race management with rotations and sit-outs, data collection involving tabulation, statistics, and data historians, rich graphical interfaces for setup, race progress, and live updates, the general purpose computer can really deliver with the right designers and programmers behind it. Whether you prefer the blocky lego like graphics of antique DOS function key driven applications or the mouse clicky menu and window based new graphical user interfaces there is something for everyone. 

Whether you are on DOS, Windows, MacOS, or Linux if you are still using only what the general purpose platform provides, you will have to make compromises. It's a total package, timing and race management, so it usually comes down to personal preferences and what you are willing to sacrifice to get what you want. 

Personally, I would prefer to see a race system that has all of the timing and race data management functions embedded in a dedicated and configurable pod that has no onboard user interface. The pod would have a high speed network interface, a few discrete inputs for the sensors, track call, etc., data storage, and an onboard web server. All user interface functions from configuration of the unit itself to live race updates would be done through a web browser. This would allow you to run your races from any computer or device that has a web browser. Since all the the timing is done on the pod the performance of the machine running the user interface would be a non-issue. You could even run your race from a wireless device like a smart phone or iPad like device. Until such a dedicated pod is designed, a small form factor headless PC could serve in this role quite nicely when properly equipped - with all the aforementioned limitations recognized. In any case, this is the direction I would like to see race systems headed.


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## demether (Aug 26, 2008)

Concerning Linux, I know that some debian kernels are programmed with 0 latency feature, especially for musicians (Ubuntu Studio, for example). I don't know if it can be used for slot racing timing software. 

Imagine a complete minimal linux OS with 0 latency + timing software package. Just put the CD, install and transform your computer in a 100% dedicated timing machine. 

last but not least, you can choose the graphical interface, since in linux, it's separated from the rest of the system. And it's compatible with most hardware around, new or old. 

Perhaps it could be a way to achieve something new and improved ?


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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

There are so many unknown and/or undisclosed variables in this testing method that really both results are meaningless.

:freak:


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## Cenobyte (Mar 15, 2009)

Today I built a new setup for testing. I now use a PC to switch a lightsource on ("no car") and off ("passing car"), which in turn is above the light sensors of the timing computer I want to test. I can program the computer to control the light source with a very accurate switching sequence that I can repeat over and over.

Using this setup I can repeat my tests more accurate. I have now used a faster machine for the Windows software (1,6Ghz and 512KB of RAM) and my old 100Mhz machine for SRM on DOS and I used two sensors to test (simulating a 2 lane track). The difference now is much smaller than before (but that is with using the faster machine for Windows and the slower machine for DOS), but there is still a small advantage for the DOS timing. I haven't used the faster machine for SRM since there is no DOS on that machine.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

The zero latency kernel would be the perfect runtime engine for the perpetual motion machine that is powering the frictionless cooling system in my Unicorn stable - or so says the honest politician who sold it to me.


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## resinmonger (Mar 5, 2008)

:freak: I sold my Unicorn Stable so I could buy a Manticore Stable... :freak:


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## demether (Aug 26, 2008)




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## SwamperGene (Dec 1, 2003)

demether said:


> Concerning Linux, I know that some debian kernels are programmed with 0 latency feature, especially for musicians (Ubuntu Studio, for example). I don't know if it can be used for slot racing timing software.
> 
> Imagine a complete minimal linux OS with 0 latency + timing software package. Just put the CD, install and transform your computer in a 100% dedicated timing machine.
> 
> ...


 
Just reading through some old posts here, and this one stuck out. While not exactly what you're refering to here, by using the .net framework and WPF Race Coordinator is taking a step in that direction. The UI windows ("Race Screens") in RC are simply xaml forms which interact with the core "program", as such the end user is able to configure pretty much every visual aspect of the race screen to the point of creating an altogether unique "version" of the program. After investigating xaml and WPF a bit, I think there are going to be opportunities to do a lot of cool stuff with this program. This is a fine example of someone using modern tools to prove that our racing applications can be taken much further than what we've been used to for so many years. 

If you haven't tried it yet...have a look at RC. It has advanced rapidly in it's capabilities and in my testing is very stable. It's currently at version .20b, and I think within the next couple weeks will be taken out of beta numbering.

:thumbsup:


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

It's important to separate GUI rendering and race management portions of the application from the data acquisition processing portions of the application. As long as the data acquisition part, i.e., sensor/detector input processing, is done in a real time manner and decoupled from the GUI and race management portions, just about any GUI technology can be used depending on your choice of platform, operating system, and programming languages. 

The .NET framework and WPF is a pretty good choice for a thick client approach for Windows only systems, although no race management program that I have seen to date comes close to exploiting the capabilities that WPF was designed to provide. You could obtain comparable (and more portable and platform independent) functionality using Microsoft's own Silverlight 4, Adobe AIR, JavaFX, and what could be the beginning of the end for WPF (and many other technologies) ... HTML5. 

RC uses some of the capabilities of the markup plus code-behind model provided by WPF to add some degree of UI customization, but it is still another fat client application built on top of the build-in legacy comm drivers provide by Windows and it's tied to Windows. You may be able to run it on the Linux/OSX version of .NET which is called Mono. The WPF features in Mono trail behind what is provided by Microsoft, but they eventually catch up. Is RC a step in the right direction? Probably, but it is a small step. This is not to discount the effort put forth by the RC developer to replicate many of the features provided by TrackMate with more modern GUI, but architecturally it is a small step. TrackMate has been in need of a GUI refresh for quite some time, bit the functionality of TM is still very solid so we forgive it for having a dated look and feel and user interaction model. 

What's really next for slot car racing programs? I would be very interested, and would actively contribute to, a next generation modular racing system. It would provide a clear separation of the functional aspects of the system, from data acquisition via modern interfaces like USB, wireless, and bluetooth, to a user customizable UI, and a race management component that handles all of the raceday needs and allows data publishing and aggregation across the cloud to race stats can be consumed at a global scale. But would the investment be worth it? When I see people using primitive DOS programs I cringe. But these DOS programs are still very functional and serve a need. The requirements for a race management system have not really changed in decades: count laps, time laps, manage lane rotation, handle track calls, compile heat totals, compile race totals, provide audible cues, generate race reports, etc. These functions can clearly be done by a low end computer - or no computer with the right hardware tools. So what's the incentive to design and build something radically new? 

In my mind there are still many opportunities in this realm that go beyond the standalone computer banging out lap counts and beeping. But until these requirements are clearly articulated or understood by someone or a development group willing to cut some new ground, we'll have to make do with one offs and knock offs that slowly and incrementally move beyond what is already in place.


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## slotcarsten (Nov 19, 2011)

Oh my.
I wish I had seen this website and thread a year ago, but if anybody still cares, allow me to put in my two cents.

I am the designer of the LapMaster race management software.
Someone started a very good discoution about the precision of Laptiming software.
Let me say, you are barking up the right tree, but you might be supprices what falls from it.

As it happends it is next to impossible to make 1/1000 second timing on a windows software only platform, which is why LapMaster uses hardware that performs all the timing, and windows then does the fancy stuff of displaying the result, playing the sound files, updating the internet etc.

Let me explain a bit more. All computers have at it heart a crystal clock with an enourmous high frequency (GHz), and is as such by birth a good basis for a very precise watch. Most operating systems also allows the programs to read from this clock with a very high precision. BUT. The basic clock commands might seem like they have 1/1000 (milliSecond) resolution, but actual not. Windows only updates it clock 16.2 times a second, so even though expressed in milli seconds, if you examine it it, it is jerky and only updates 16.2 times a second, not every 1/1000 as you might expect. Still Windows gives you access to the high resolution clock, and with that you can time down to micro seconds (1/1000000), that it if you watch the counter without blinking. And here is the greater problem. Windows beeing a multitasking system performs a ton of stuff behind your back, literally hundrests of programs are running in the background. Checking for emails, virus scanners, network protocols, managing you printers, updating graphics etc. This is the problem. From time to time, the processor is taken away from you, and assigned to perform other tasks. You cannot keep your attention on the otherwise very fine watch in the computer, and you never know when or for how long the processor is distracted. For this reason, even though you might give a precise signal for when the car passes the deadstrip or breaks the light beam, you never know when you will watch the clock again. This causes a lot of uncertainty on the timing, and yes, it causes these unbelivable events where many cars seems to hit exactly the same time (Because they all seem to cross at the same time when the computer gets time to look at the clock again.) Even worse, it causes phantom times when the prevous round was delayed in reporting the time, and the next lap isn't. Thrust me phantom times does not exist. Nobody suddently goes .2 second faster than everybody else himself included.

My (LapMaster's) solution to this is a hardware box that runs a single-chip computer, that dosn't do multitasking. I have control of every computing instruction of the thing. I know that a special rutine in the program is actvated every 1/1000 of a second, controlled by a high precission clock crystal. I know that the devise will time acurately to the specified +/- 1/1000, and that it will handle all 8 timing channels in parallel, and as offend as needed, without failing. 
And yes, the sample screens was generated from the buildin simulator that runs the demo mode of LapMaster. They where not samples of real racing. 

Best regards,
Carsten Groennemann.


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## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

Carsten, so any timing system that isn't built on a platform specifically designed for only that application is subject to these limitations? 
where does one find your LapMaster system and how much does it cost?

I have used a system called Trik Trax which is a stand alone computer that only times and records laps.
and it's cousin the Drag Trax for drag racing. alas, John has long ago lost interest and no longer produces or maintains these wonderful specialty computers.


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## SpiderRPM (Nov 2, 2011)

sjracer said:


> I'd love it if it could also be used for drag racing perhaps reaction time, win, et.


Reaction time on the tree would be SWEEEEET.


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## TGM2054 (May 14, 2011)

If somebody could just figure out how to tie it together with the Auto World set up I'd be in heaven!


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## slotcarsten (Nov 19, 2011)

Alpink:
You can find general information on LapMaster from my website www.lapmaster.dk. If you have specifik questions you are always welcome to ask, either in this thread, or directly e.g. using [email protected].

To see the system in action on the internet, try e.g. http://www.dallasslotcars.com/LiveTiming/ they race wingcars on a blue king almost every weekend.

For a 1 to 4 lane LapMaster system I charge 400 USD + shipping, for an 1 to 8 lane system 500 USD.

To iterate, yes any software running on a multitasking platform like windows will suffer from this problem. If you have ever played a computer game and suffered from "Lacking" or jerking, you will have notised this effect. To the best of my knowledge, only LapMaster and Spytech uses external (USB connected) hardware for timing.

Best regards,
Carsten.


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## AfxToo (Aug 29, 2003)

Carsten, it sounds like you know what you are talking about and understand what it takes to build an accurate race timing and management solution through proper functional layering and partitioning. Plus you obviously understand the determinism issues around multiprocessing systems, i.e., multitasking and multithreaded shared-resource systems. 

I actually did some fairly detailed research and prototyping more than a decade ago around using Windows NT (which is still the architectural basis for Windows 2000 through Windows 7) for real time process control applications. I know all about the inherent randomness in Windows because I have seen it firsthand. It's simply not a hard real time OS no matter how you look at it. Sure you can say it's "soft" real time or bounded real time but that's kind of like saying someone is a "little" pregnant. Being a suitable real time OS is a binary thing in my mind, it either is or it isn't. Windows most definitely isn't and neither are most general purpose operating systems.

With all that being said I would still say that there is absolutely a place in our hobby for a "low accuracy" race timing and management system, especially if it is very low cost or free, because this class of application in general adds an enormous amount of fun to the total hobby experience. Even though the accuracy is known to be questionable at times and even though there are some wild outliers the overall benefit very often outweighs the downsides when absolute accuracy is not required. Would I use a Windows based software-only solution for a national championship slot car race? Heck no. I personally wouldn't use it for anything where accuracy down to the tens of milliseconds (or less) level was being used to decide a winner or loser (i.e., drag racing, 1:24 scale cars) unless everyone involved agreed to accept the inherent randomness and live with the consequences. 

Good luck with your system, it sounds like a winner to me and the cost reflects the engineering that went into building it properly.


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## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

would Carsten be interested in developing a drag system?


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## slotcarsten (Nov 19, 2011)

Alpink:
No not really, I am not into drags...
Seriously it could be interesting, but I do not know anything about drag racing procedures at all, and secondly I have enough on my plate as it is. However you are not the first to ask, and especially drag racing needs the precise timing, so it would be prudent.

AfxToo:
I totally agree, software only solutions do have their merrit. I am confident that most of them can accurately count laps and run races. That is miles better than nothing. It is only when it goes to someone reading out timing with 7 decimals that you shake your head and says; "They know nothing, they do not understand what the h... they are doing."

Unfortunatly, many national champinonships *are* run on systems that are a little shaky to say the least. Not to say claim for "World Record" lap times. But it is an uphill battle to educate everybody, you are obviously the one exception.

Carsten.


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## Cenobyte (Mar 15, 2009)

A little late reply, but better late then never 



> Windows only updates it clock 16.2 times a second, so even though expressed in milli seconds, if you examine it it, it is jerky and only updates 16.2 times a second, not every 1/1000 as you might expect.


Almost correct. This is not only the case for multitasking operating systems, but this is the case for ALL operating systems when the PC is running on a standard clock setting, even MS DOS. The 16,2 times per second timing is caused by the clock speed of every PC.

Normally there's little you can do about this, because Windows prohibits the change of this clock speed multiplier. MS DOS, however, has no problems with the software manipulating the internal clock. Slot Race Manager uses this to speed up the timing frequency so that timing of 1/1000s of a second can be reached. This does have a few side effects: during the timing no sound effects can be played, because the sound system also uses the internal clock. When the timing routine finishes, SRM needs to correct the system's time and date, because during the race the system's clock is running much faster.

All in all both Slot Race Manager and Lapmaster have their strong points:

*Slot Race Manager*
PRO: a system that is completely free and uses an old PC that often also can be found for free. So: all free with good accuracy!
CON: no fancy graphics or sounds

*Lapmaster*
PRO: fancy graphics and sounds with good accuracy.
CON: expensive due to the extra hardware that is needed.


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

Great to see you on here Cyno...

I have loved using SRM on my track. 
Works great, even though my light sensors could be considered "back woods".
Now, if I could only get some racers over here again...


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