# Roar outlaws the uber fast team trinity d3.5 17.5 line of motors!!!!



## godofcable (Nov 3, 2010)

Read all about it!!!!

ROAR OUTLAWS THE UBER FAST TEAM TRINITY D3.5 17.5 LINE OF MOTORS!!!!


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## dr voodoo (Mar 13, 2009)

Dear Partners and Customers:


At roughly 10pm last evening I received an email from Steve Pond who I believe now is the Secretary of ROAR saying that the D3.5 (17.5 spec motor) is being removed from the ROAR list effective immediately. Please see press release shown on the ROAR website below (it is a little confusing because it implies that the entire D3.5 is in question but upon reading further it is only the 17.5 spec motor)


Approval status of Trinity D3.5 and D3.5-based OEM motors

After a great deal of consideration the ROAR Executive Committee has determined that the Trinity D3.5 motor and others based on the D3.5, do not comply with the organization’s required specifications for motors in the 17.5 stock class. The determination is based on the fact that motors being sold are built with wire that’s larger than maximum specification permitted. All of the random samples of the D3.5 based motors during the announced compliance checks tested with wire that’s larger than the maximum dimension. Rule 8.8.4.3.1 states clearly that “The three slotted stator must be wound with 17.5 turns of 2 strands of a maximum diameter of 20AWG or 0.813 mm per slot. A diameter of .813mm is the nominal measurement of 20AWG wire, and that it is the stated maximum wire diameter permitted. It’s on this basis that the Executive Committee made its determination.
This entry was posted on Thursday, January 17th, 2013 at 11:20 pm and is filed under Approval News,


Trinity's position on this is as follows:


1) We built a brushless motor to the specifications and rules R.O.A.R. gives us and every other motor builder. The rules are not perfect like most any rule made. But Trinity followed the "letter of the law",


2) We have several issues here:


A) The rule reads 17.5 turns of 2 strands of a maximum diameter of 20AWG or 0.813mm per slot. A diameter of .813mm is the nominal measurement of 20AWG wire, and that it is the stated maximum wire diameter permitted. It’s on this basis that the Executive Committee made its determination.


Problem 1: There is no tolerance mentioned anywhere in this rule. It is literally impossible to manufacture any product today, especially in China with a zero tolerance. We have supplied letters from our motor company to ROAR saying that the 20AWG that we use is compliant with their rule and every copper wire that is manufactured throughout the world "has some tolerance". ROAR says wire companies do not use any tolerance and make everything EXACT. Are we to be lead to believe that a Chinese or American wire company that has produced wire slightly larger or smaller in size "in this present world economy" is then "melting it down or throwing it away" This is not practical. It is also not practical to have any rule with zero tolerance!


Problem 2: The above rule is confusing and can be misinterpreted because it was not written correctly. You choose either .813mm or 20AWG....


We chose 20AWG wire which are motor company in China ordered and supplied ROAR with the necessary amount of samples, in the same manner Trinity and every other motor manufacturer operates. We paid for the sample motors and paid the ROAR approval fees (in excess of a thousand dollars). We then wait (like every other motor company for either an approval or an issue). If we receive the approval, we then start the production of motors, just like every other motor manufacturer.


Problem 3: We were issued an approval for the D3.5 (17.5) in April of 2012 and released the first batch of D3.5 spec motors in the R.O.A.R. pipeline and have been selling these motors for over TEN (10) months.......


Problem 4: ROAR has confirmed that they have tested recent motors, through spot-checks as well as the "original samples" that are archived at ROAR (like every other motor manufacturer) and they have concluded that the motors have never been changed by Trinity since the initial approval


Problem 5: ROAR faced a number of competing motor manufacturer's with complaints about the motor and ROAR then purchased what they say...."more sophisticated measuring equipment to test motors" than what was available when they tested Trinity and every other motor submitted for the past several years. 


Problem 6: They are now determining that they feel our motor (17.5) does not meet their specification and have pulled this "ONE MOTOR" 17.5 Spec off the list with no warning, no grace period and no discussion with the manufacturer.


Our position here is "WE HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG" and this obviously can "ARBITRARILY HAPPEN AGAIN" to any one of you if your competitors yell loud enough. WE DID NOTHING WRONG. WE COMPLIED TO THEIR SPEC, PAID THEIR FEES, WENT THROUGH THEIR APPROVAL PROCESS, MADE THE D3.5 MORE AVAILABLE TO MORE SOURCES THAN ALL THE OTHER MOTOR MANUFACTURER'S COMBINED!


How do we go forward and our concerns:


A) Our main concern is that this is an "ARBITRARY DECISION" ROAR made due to increased pressure from outside manufacturer's (who should have nothing to do with running the organization). This is a MAJOR CONFLICT OF INTEREST


B) ROAR is assuming NO RESPONSIBILITY for APPROVING THIS MOTOR AND ALLOWING PEOPLE TO BUY THIS FOR OVER 10 MONTHS WHEN WE CHANGED ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FROM THE ORIGINAL APPROVAL


C) ROAR has shown no responsibility for clubs and organizers, distributors, dealers and consumers who purchased this motor "BASED ON THEIE APPROVAL" since they run their establishments on ROAR rules.


D) ROAR has offered NO SOLUTION TO THE MATTER other than they are possibly working a new spec for a motor but have no details or information about this.


In closing I am hoping to speak with the new ROAR President at some point today to go over these points and to see what if anything can be resolved. This press release is just to inform you of what is happening and my promise to you that we will not allow our company, our partners (OEM'S) and our customers suffer without a fight if a "realistic solution can be reached". We are seeking relief from this ruling for the following indisputable reasons:


1) We were granted ROAR approval by Bob Ingersol, The ROAR technical director and the ROAR Executive and ROAR has confirmed we have not changed the motor since it was approved 10 Months AGO!
2) ROAR saying they have purchased new equipment which obviously changes the way they approve motors is no concern of ours....it is just a confirmation that they feel their approval process was not up to the task. This is not the fault of any motor manufacturer who complied to ROAR's approval rules
3) This is an arbitrary decision with no solution given due to increased pressure from competing manufactures (WHICH IS A MAJOR CONFLICT OF INTEREST) if several parties can exert this type of pressure over a volunteer organization.


Again I am hoping some peaceful and realistic resolution for all parties can be reached quickly. Trinity does not want to seek an immediate injunction or relief from this 'ruling" and force it to be decided in the courts system.


I thank-you for listening and for your continued support for Trinity.


Thanks..Ernie




Ernest N. Provetti
Chief Executive Officer
Trincorp, LLC, Team Trinity / Epic
P.O. Box 520747
Longwood FLORIDA 32752-0747
United States
Phone 386-668-7771
Email: [email protected]
www.teamtrinity.com
Exclusive Importer for Trinity, Revtech, Team Epic Inc. and TRC


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## ta_man (Apr 10, 2005)

All the above may be true but it could also be that Trinity deliberately sought out wire that was on the plus side of the specification. Otherwise, why would *all* the samples that ROAR tested be oversize and not some on spec and some undersize.

Also, why would you think there should be a grace period to continue allowing something found to be illegal?


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## wwddww34 (Dec 27, 2012)




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## dr voodoo (Mar 13, 2009)

To whom it may concern:

This morning I started my daily business with some very unsettling news. It started with a phone call from a customer, followed by my email inbox being filled with numerous inquiries. By 9:00am this morning, I already had one dealer of ours ask who is going to be responsible for reimbursing them. Just this one request alone could end up costing us several thousand dollars. In the 2 hours it has taken to write this email, my phone and email has been receiving inquiries literally every 5 to 10 minutes.

As you know, I am referring to the announcement that "ROAR" made regarding the ban of the D3.5 17.5 motor. Cutting to the chase, did the ROAR Executive Committee actually give any thought to the trickle down affect this will have on our industry? Did you consider the harm this would do to not only one of the pioneering companies that played a big part in the shape of this industry as we know it today (Trinity), to the dozens of OEM customers that purchase this product, to the distributors and hundreds of hobby shops, to the thousands of customers who have already purchased this product? Speaking as just one of dozens of OEM customers of Trinity, this is how I have been making my living since 1995. I have a mortgage, a wife and 4 year old to feed and many bills like everyone else. I'm self-employed...I can't just go down to the unemployment office and file for unemployment benefits now and I don't have the resources to go on my own to have "ROAR legal" motor produced before my income dissolves. The 17.5 motor is by far the main product that puts food on my table. I am just one of hundreds, if not thousands, that this is affecting. These are people's lives and families that you are messing with, just because the wire on Trinity's 17.5 motor is .005" over your spec, which isn't even a correct spec in the first place (more on this following this paragraph). To say the least, this is appalling and extremely irresponsible.

As mentioned above, the wire specs that ROAR listed are simply not correct. First, the rules state that the wire size can be a maximum diameter of 20AWG or 0.813mm. This in itself is a conflicting statement. Obviously, the person who wrote this rule had no experience with AWG (American Wire Gauge) wire sizes, because if they did, they would know that all AWG wire has indisputable allowable tolerances. Furthermore, all magnet wire conforms to one universal specification, the NEMA MW1000 spec, which allows for these tolerances. Simply put, you cannot list in the rules that the wire can be 20AWG or 0.813mm in the same sentence, because it's absolutely not correct according to AWG standards. 

As many of you know, my company has been hand winding motors for many years, from 1980 when the original owner started and then taken over by me in 1995. Please find attached a wire chart that was passed on to me from the original owner of Fantom. This is a chart that I have followed whenever a question or concern has came up regarding wire sizes. As you can see, 20AWG wire is listed as three different sizes, i.e. Minimum 0.317" (.80518mm), Nominal 0.032" (.8128mm), and Maximum .0322" (.81788mm). As you can see, tolerances are allowed by AWG standards, so it is wrong for you to list in the rules that the wire can be 20AWG and at the same time be a maximum of 0.813mm in the same sentence. There is no wire manufacturer in the world that can produce wire to the nominal size of .8128mm without an allowable tolerance. It is impossible. 

In light of this situation, I also contacted the wire company that I have been purchasing wire from for many years. The company is MWS Wire Industries and my contact is Kevin McClure. His email address is: [email protected] Upon asking Kevin what the industry specifications are for 20AWG wire, here is what he replied to me: 

With any wire there is always going to be a tolerance, in the case of 20 AWG, the bare copper tolerance is .0317-.0323". You won't find any wire company that can guarantee exactly .032" Bare. FYI: The overall diameter of a 20 STAI wire w/enamel is .0329-.0339". 

If you would like the complete email, to confirm that I am not making this up, I will be happy to forward the entire conversation upon your request, and/or you can email Kevin direct. Please read the above reply carefully and notice that he says that "you won't find any wire company that can guarantee exactly .032" bare wire". Also notice that the tolerances he listed are exactly as the attached chart lists them at (appears he rounded up the maximum to .0323 from .0322 if we are splitting hairs here).

I further investigated AWG wire by reviewing Wikipedia's encyclopedia definition found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge The first sentence reveals the following: American wire gauge (AWG), also known as the Brown & Sharpe wire gauge, is a standardized wire gauge system used since 1857 predominantly in the United States and Canada for the diameters of round, solid, nonferrous, electrically conducting wire.[1]

As you can see, AWG has been a standardized system since 1857. There is simply no arguing that AWG wire has a tolerance and this tolerance should be allowed by ROAR if you are going to put "20AWG" and the "maximum size" in the same sentence of your rules. There is nothing in this world that is produced without a tolerance...even multi-million dollar F14 fighter jets were built with tolerances. In fact, my brother-in-law is a machinist who worked on airplane parts and the tolerances were in the millionths of an inch, but they still allowed tolerances.

As a ROAR Affiliate, at this time I would also like to voice my concerns about Ron Schuur. This is nothing personal, as I do not even know him. My concerns are on a business level only. My concern is that ROAR is allowing a motor company owner (Schuur Speed) to be in charge of motor and battery approvals. If this is not a conflict of interest, I don't know what is. This would not be tolerated in any other industry and should not be tolerated in this industry. It is not right and is irresponsible for all of the other committee members to allow it.

In conclusion, it is my opinion that the Executive Committee should reinstate the D3.5 17.5 approval and publicly apologize to all of the people who's lives were dramatically affected by this irresponsible action. If ROAR wants to make the future rule state that the wire can only be a maximum of .813mm, then the rule should be rewritten grammatically correct and should eliminate any AWG wire sizes in the same sentence. Also, if a new rule is written, it should not affect current approvals, including the D3.5 17.5. As written, the current rule make absolutely no sense and should not affect the original approval of the D3.5 17.5 motor. As mentioned above, this action has affected mine and my family's life and countless other's lives. This matter needs immediate attention and needs to be resolved quickly. If it is not resolved quickly, I will join with Trinity and do everything I can to help them legally resolve this matter. I would hope as professionals, that we can all come together and resolve this situation without involving litigation. It simply comes down to that one sentence, published by ROAR, that is indisputably incorrect: "Rule 8.8.4.3.1...a maximum diameter of 20AWG or 0.813 mm per slot". This rule will not hold up under litigation.

Thank you for your time.

Regards,
Jeff Schroeder
Owner: Fantom Racing


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## reggie's dad (Sep 14, 2006)

*Interesting*

Nice timing, What 2 weeks before the birds? This won't pass the smell test very well...................:dude:


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## OvalmanPA (Mar 21, 2000)

This is going to draw a LOT of criticism but I look at it as some of Trinities "innovation" finally bit them in the butt.


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## JeffSchroeder (Jan 18, 2013)

ta_man said:


> All the above may be true but it could also be that Trinity deliberately sought out wire that was on the plus side of the specification. Otherwise, why would *all* the samples that ROAR tested be oversize and not some on spec and some undersize.
> 
> Also, why would you think there should be a grace period to continue allowing something found to be illegal?


It would be nearly impossible for Trinity to seek out wire as you mentioned, because all magnetic wire manufacturers go by strict standards for purity and size. They couldn't choose 20.5 gauge, because it would be too small and they couldn't choose 19.5 gauge because it would be too large. I'm confident that Trinity is using 20AWG wire, but ROAR is ignorant as to what the actual 20AWG tolerances are and/or they are not measuring the wire correctly. There's always a chance that the motor manufacturer in China could have received a batch of wire on the high side, but this would be by chance, not deliberate intention by Trinity. Keep in mind, the manufacturer in China goes through thousands of pounds of wire and from batch to batch the tolerance may vary slightly.

Jeff
Fantom Racing


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## KLEIN-12 (May 28, 2006)

JeffSchroeder said:


> It would be nearly impossible for Trinity to seek out wire as you mentioned, because all magnetic wire manufacturers go by strict standards for purity and size. They couldn't choose 20.5 gauge, because it would be too small and they couldn't choose 19.5 gauge because it would be too large. I'm confident that Trinity is using 20AWG wire, but ROAR is ignorant as to what the actual 20AWG tolerances are and/or they are not measuring the wire correctly. There's always a chance that the motor manufacturer in China could have received a batch of wire on the high side, but this would be by chance, not deliberate intention by Trinity. Keep in mind, the manufacturer in China goes through thousands of pounds of wire and from batch to batch the tolerance may vary slightly.
> 
> Jeff
> Fantom Racing


Exactly, coming from mfg side , we have a + - tolerance on every material we use, and ROAR is not allowing for those tolerances for a true 20awg wire... Trust me the wire mfg dont care who "ROAR" is and are producing wire to the standards set in the real world Industry... they are not going to make a wire that is 20.5awg for a RC mfg to cheat the rules..


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## jgullo53 (Jun 26, 2008)

Hopefully they can resolve the issue, it seems pretty stupid of ROAR to do this...


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## dr voodoo (Mar 13, 2009)

So far we have emailed many times and called but have received ZERO RESPONSE FROM ROAR....


Here are a few emails sent to them:


Email 1:


To: Dawn Sanchez <[email protected]>, [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]>, Ruben Benitez <[email protected]>and 3 more…
Trinity's Response to recent ROAR ruling of the D3.5 (17.5)

Dear Partners and Customers:


At roughly 10pm last evening I received an email from Steve Pond who I believe now is the Secretary of ROAR saying that the D3.5 (17.5 spec motor) is being removed from the ROAR list effective immediately. Please see press release shown on the ROAR website below (it is a little confusing because it implies that the entire D3.5 is in question but upon reading further it is only the 17.5 spec motor)


Approval status of Trinity D3.5 and D3.5-based OEM motors


After a great deal of consideration the ROAR Executive Committee has determined that the Trinity D3.5 motor and others based on the D3.5, do not comply with the organization’s required specifications for motors in the 17.5 stock class. The determination is based on the fact that motors being sold are built with wire that’s larger than maximum specification permitted. All of the random samples of the D3.5 based motors during the announced compliance checks tested with wire that’s larger than the maximum dimension. Rule 8.8.4.3.1 states clearly that “The three slotted stator must be wound with 17.5 turns of 2 strands of a maximum diameter of 20AWG or 0.813 mm per slot. A diameter of .813mm is the nominal measurement of 20AWG wire, and that it is the stated maximum wire diameter permitted. It’s on this basis that the Executive Committee made its determination.
This entry was posted on Thursday, January 17th, 2013 at 11:20 pm and is filed under Approval News,


Trinity's position on this is as follows:


1) We built a brushless motor to the specifications and rules R.O.A.R. gives us and every other motor builder. The rules are not perfect like most any rule made. But Trinity followed the "letter of the law",


2) We have several issues here:


A) The rule reads 17.5 turns of 2 strands of a maximum diameter of 20AWG or 0.813mm per slot. A diameter of .813mm is the nominal measurement of 20AWG wire, and that it is the stated maximum wire diameter permitted. It’s on this basis that the Executive Committee made its determination.


Problem 1: There is no tolerance mentioned anywhere in this rule. It is literally impossible to manufacture any product today, especially in China with a zero tolerance. We have supplied letters from our motor company to ROAR saying that the 20AWG that we use is compliant with their rule and every copper wire that is manufactured throughout the world "has some tolerance". ROAR says wire companies do not use any tolerance and make everything EXACT. Are we to be lead to believe that a Chinese or American wire company that has produced wire slightly larger or smaller in size "in this present world economy" is then "melting it down or throwing it away" This is not practical. It is also not practical to have any rule with zero tolerance!


Problem 2: The above rule is confusing and can be misinterpreted because it was not written correctly. You choose either .813mm or 20AWG....


We chose 20AWG wire which are motor company in China ordered and supplied ROAR with the necessary amount of samples, in the same manner Trinity and every other motor manufacturer operates. We paid for the sample motors and paid the ROAR approval fees (in excess of a thousand dollars). We then wait (like every other motor company for either an approval or an issue). If we receive the approval, we then start the production of motors, just like every other motor manufacturer.


Problem 3: We were issued an approval for the D3.5 (17.5) in April of 2012 and released the first batch of D3.5 spec motors in the R.O.A.R. pipeline and have been selling these motors for over TEN (10) months.......


Problem 4: ROAR has confirmed that they have tested recent motors, through spot-checks as well as the "original samples" that are archived at ROAR (like every other motor manufacturer) and they have concluded that the motors have never been changed by Trinity since the initial approval


Problem 5: ROAR faced a number of competing motor manufacturer's with complaints about the motor and ROAR then purchased what they say...."more sophisticated measuring equipment to test motors" than what was available when they tested Trinity and every other motor submitted for the past several years. 


Problem 6: They are now determining that they feel our motor (17.5) does not meet their specification and have pulled this "ONE MOTOR" 17.5 Spec off the list with no warning, no grace period and no discussion with the manufacturer.


Our position here is "WE HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG" and this obviously can "ARBITRARILY HAPPEN AGAIN" to any one of you if your competitors yell loud enough. WE DID NOTHING WRONG. WE COMPLIED TO THEIR SPEC, PAID THEIR FEES, WENT THROUGH THEIR APPROVAL PROCESS, MADE THE D3.5 MORE AVAILABLE TO MORE SOURCES THAN ALL THE OTHER MOTOR MANUFACTURER'S COMBINED!


How do we go forward and our concerns:


A) Our main concern is that this is an "ARBITRARY DECISION" ROAR made due to increased pressure from outside manufacturer's (who should have nothing to do with running the organization). This is a MAJOR CONFLICT OF INTEREST


B) ROAR is assuming NO RESPONSIBILITY for APPROVING THIS MOTOR AND ALLOWING PEOPLE TO BUY THIS FOR OVER 10 MONTHS WHEN WE CHANGED ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FROM THE ORIGINAL APPROVAL


C) ROAR has shown no responsibility for clubs and organizers, distributors, dealers and consumers who purchased this motor "BASED ON THEIE APPROVAL" since they run their establishments on ROAR rules.


D) ROAR has offered NO SOLUTION TO THE MATTER other than they are possibly working a new spec for a motor but have no details or information about this.


In closing I am hoping to speak with the new ROAR President at some point today to go over these points and to see what if anything can be resolved. This press release is just to inform you of what is happening and my promise to you that we will not allow our company, our partners (OEM'S) and our customers suffer without a fight if a "realistic solution can be reached". We are seeking relief from this ruling for the following indisputable reasons:


1) We were granted ROAR approval by Bob Ingersol, The ROAR technical director and the ROAR Executive and ROAR has confirmed we have not changed the motor since it was approved 10 Months AGO!
2) ROAR saying they have purchased new equipment which obviously changes the way they approve motors is no concern of ours....it is just a confirmation that they feel their approval process was not up to the task. This is not the fault of any motor manufacturer who complied to ROAR's approval rules
3) This is an arbitrary decision with no solution given due to increased pressure from competing manufactures (WHICH IS A MAJOR CONFLICT OF INTEREST) if several parties can exert this type of pressure over a volunteer organization.


Again I am hoping some peaceful and realistic resolution for all parties can be reached quickly. Trinity does not want to seek an immediate injunction or relief from this 'ruling" and force it to be decided in the courts system.


I thank-you for listening and for your continued support for Trinity.


Thanks..Ernie




Ernest N. Provetti
Chief Executive Officer
Trincorp, LLC, Team Trinity / Epic


Email: 2:


On Jan 18, 2013, at 2:57 PM, Jeff Schroeder <[email protected]> wrote:


To whom it may concern:

This morning I started my daily business with some very unsettling news. It started with a phone call from a customer, followed by my email inbox being filled with numerous inquiries. By 9:00am this morning, I already had one dealer of ours ask who is going to be responsible for reimbursing them. Just this one request alone could end up costing us several thousand dollars. In the 2 hours it has taken to write this email, my phone and email has been receiving inquiries literally every 5 to 10 minutes.

As you know, I am referring to the announcement that "ROAR" made regarding the ban of the D3.5 17.5 motor. Cutting to the chase, did the ROAR Executive Committee actually give any thought to the trickle down affect this will have on our industry? Did you consider the harm this would do to not only one of the pioneering companies that played a big part in the shaping of this industry as we know it today (Trinity), to the dozens of OEM customers that purchase this product, to the distributors and hundreds of hobby shops, to the thousands of customers who have already purchased this product? Speaking as just one of dozens of OEM customers of Trinity, this is how I have been making my living since 1995. I have a mortgage, a wife and 4 year old to feed and many bills like everyone else. I'm self-employed...If I have to close down and can't find another job, I can't just go down to the unemployment office and file for unemployment benefits and I don't have the resources to go on my own to have "ROAR legal" motor produced before my income dissolves. The 17.5 motor is by far the main product that puts food on my table. I am just one of hundreds, if not thousands, that this is affecting. These are people's lives and families that you are messing with, just because the wire on Trinity's 17.5 motor is .005" over your spec, which isn't even a correct spec in the first place (more on this in the following paragraphs). To say the least, this is appalling and extremely irresponsible.

As mentioned above, the wire specs that ROAR listed are simply not correct. First, the rules state that the wire size can be a maximum diameter of 20AWG or 0.813mm. This in itself is a conflicting statement. Obviously, the person who wrote this rule had no experience with AWG (American Wire Gauge) wire sizes, because if they did, they would know that all AWG wire has indisputable allowable tolerances. Furthermore, all magnet wire conforms to one universal specification, the NEMA MW1000 spec, which allows for these tolerances. Simply put, you cannot list in the rules that the wire can be 20AWG or 0.813mm in the same sentence, because it's absolutely not correct according to AWG standards and is also not grammatically correct. 

As many of you know, my company has been hand winding motors for many years, from 1980 when the original owner started and then taken over by me in 1995. Please find attached a wire chart that was passed on to me from the original owner of Fantom. This is a chart that I have followed whenever a question or concern has came up regarding wire sizes. As you can see, 20AWG wire is listed as three different sizes, i.e. Minimum 0.317" (.80518mm), Nominal 0.032" (.8128mm), and Maximum .0322" (.81788mm). As you can see, tolerances are allowed by AWG standards, so it is wrong for you to list in the rules that the wire can be 20AWG and at the same time be a maximum of 0.813mm in the same sentence. There is no wire manufacturer in the world that can produce wire to the nominal size of .8128mm without an allowable tolerance. It is impossible. 

In light of this situation, I also contacted the wire company that I have been purchasing wire from for many years. The company is MWS Wire Industries and my contact is Kevin McClure. His email address is: [email protected] Upon asking Kevin what the industry specifications are for 20AWG wire, here is what he replied to me: 

With any wire there is always going to be a tolerance, in the case of 20 AWG, the bare copper tolerance is .0317-.0323". You won't find any wire company that can guarantee exactly .032" Bare. FYI: The overall diameter of a 20 STAI wire w/enamel is .0329-.0339". 

If you would like the complete email, to confirm that I am not making this up, I will be happy to forward the entire conversation upon your request, and/or you can email Kevin direct. Please read the above reply carefully and notice that he says that "you won't find any wire company that can guarantee exactly .032" bare wire". Also notice that the tolerances he listed are exactly as the attached chart lists them at (appears he rounded up the maximum to .0323 from .0322 if we are splitting hairs here).

I further investigated AWG wire by reviewing Wikipedia's encyclopedia definition found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge The first sentence reveals the following: American wire gauge (AWG), also known as the Brown & Sharpe wire gauge, is a standardized wire gauge system used since 1857 predominantly in the United States and Canada for the diameters of round, solid, nonferrous, electrically conducting wire.[1]

As you can see, AWG has been a standardized system since 1857. There is simply no arguing that AWG wire has a tolerance and this tolerance should be allowed by ROAR if you are going to put "20AWG" and the "maximum size" in the same sentence of your rules. There is nothing in this world that is produced without a tolerance...even multi-million dollar F14 fighter jets were built with tolerances. In fact, my brother-in-law is a machinist who worked on airplane parts and the tolerances were in the millionths of an inch, but they still allowed tolerances.

As a ROAR Affiliate, at this time I would also like to voice my concerns about Ron Schuur. This is nothing personal, as I do not even know him. My concerns are on a business level only. My concern is that ROAR is allowing a motor company owner (Schuur Speed) to be in charge of motor and battery approvals. If this is not a conflict of interest, I don't know what is. This would not be tolerated in any other industry and should not be tolerated in this industry. It is not right and is irresponsible for all of the other committee members to allow it.

I'm sure some of you may be interested in one of probably dozens of similar forums that I found on the Internet showing the support, or lack of support, to your decision. Here's the link: www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=384615

In conclusion, it is my opinion that the Executive Committee should reinstate the D3.5 17.5 approval and publicly apologize to all of the people who's lives were dramatically affected by this irresponsible action. If ROAR wants to make the future rule state that the wire can only be a maximum of .813mm, then the rule should be rewritten grammatically correct and should eliminate any AWG wire sizes in the same sentence. Also, if a new rule is written, it should not affect current approvals, including the D3.5 17.5. As written, the current rule makes absolutely no sense and should not affect the original approval of the D3.5 17.5 motor. As mentioned above, this action has affected mine and my family's life and countless others lives. This matter needs immediate attention and needs to be resolved quickly. If it is not resolved quickly, I will join with Trinity and do everything I can to help them legally resolve this matter. I would hope as professionals, that we can all come together and resolve this situation without involving litigation. It simply comes down to that one sentence, published by ROAR, that is indisputably incorrect: "Rule 8.8.4.3.1...a maximum diameter of 20AWG or 0.813 mm per slot". This rule will not hold up under litigation.

Please note that I will be posting this on our Facebook page as well as to our mailing list consisting of about 1200 members.

Thank you for your time.

Regards,
Jeff Schroeder
Owner: Fantom Racing 




Email 3:


To: [email protected], Ron Schuur <[email protected]>, Steve Pond <[email protected]>, Jim Dieter <[email protected]>, anthony przybylowicz <[email protected]>and 7 more…
Cc: Bob Stormer <[email protected]>, Frank Calandra <[email protected]>, Brian Wynn <[email protected]>, Mike Boylan <[email protected]>, ALLAN Arrington <[email protected]>, Erich Reichert <[email protected]>and 5 more…
Fwd: stator pic

The more we get into this......it is clear ROAR has acted irresponsible in this abrupt decision....


1) All AWG wire has a tolerance....proven by Jeff at Fantom and Jim Dieter (ROAR's information on tolerance levels were inaccurate)


2) I do not know what laser or robotic machine you purchased that you felt you needed. We used the same method ROAR has used for the past 30 years....a caliper. It meets the specs


You owe Trinity, it's partners, customers and racers everywhere an apology. You also owe Bob Ingersol, the ROAR Technical Director an apology....he was "thrown under the bus" for no apparent reason, Bob like Trinity did nothing wrong.....


3) We received your approval in April 2012 and have sold the motors for 10 months yet you DQ this motor in one day with no grace period or any regard for anyone and have taken no responsibility for your actions! This is ROAR's mistake


I am calling for an immediate repeal for your judgment (which is not based on facts) immediately!


Please see concrete proof below.....




Begin forwarded message:


From: Jeff Schroeder <[email protected]>
Date: January 18, 2013, 6:20:40 PM EST
To: Ernest Provetti <[email protected]>
Subject: stator pic


Ernie,

Here's a pic I just took of a random stator that I just destroyed to measure the wire. This came from the shipment I just received a couple days ago. As you can see, it measures exactly at the nominal size that 20AWG wire is supposed to be, which is .032" (0.8128mm).

Jeff



Ernest N. Provetti
Chief Executive Officer
TRINCORP, LLC
Team Trinity, Revtech, TRC, EPIC
P.O. Box 520747
Longwood FLORIDA 32752-0747
United States
Phone 386-668-7771
www.teamtrinity.com
[email protected]
Exclusive Importer for Trinity, Revtech, Team Epic Inc., TRC




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So far we have emailed many times and called but have received ZERO RESPONSE FROM ROAR....
Here are a few emails sent to them:
Email 1:
To: Dawn Sanchez <[email protected]>, [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected]>, Ruben Benitez <[email protected]>and 3 more…Trinity's Response to recent ROAR ruling of the D3.5 (17.5) 
Dear Partners and Customers:
At roughly 10pm last evening I received an email from Steve Pond who I believe now is the Secretary of ROAR saying that the D3.5 (17.5 spec motor) is being removed from the ROAR list effective immediately. Please see press release shown on the ROAR website below (it is a little confusing because it implies that the entire D3.5 is in question but upon reading further it is only the 17.5 spec motor)
Approval status of Trinity D3.5 and D3.5-based OEM motors
After a great deal of consideration the ROAR Executive Committee has determined that the Trinity D3.5 motor and others based on the D3.5, do not comply with the organization’s required specifications for motors in the 17.5 stock class. The determination is based on the fact that motors being sold are built with wire that’s larger than maximum specification permitted. All of the random samples of the D3.5 based motors during the announced compliance checks tested with wire that’s larger than the maximum dimension. Rule 8.8.4.3.1 states clearly that “The three slotted stator must be wound with 17.5 turns of 2 strands of a maximum diameter of 20AWG or 0.813 mm per slot. A diameter of .813mm is the nominal measurement of 20AWG wire, and that it is the stated maximum wire diameter permitted. It’s on this basis that the Executive Committee made its determination.This entry was posted on Thursday, January 17th, 2013 at 11:20 pm and is filed under Approval News,
Trinity's position on this is as follows:
1) We built a brushless motor to the specifications and rules R.O.A.R. gives us and every other motor builder. The rules are not perfect like most any rule made. But Trinity followed the "letter of the law",
2) We have several issues here:
A) The rule reads 17.5 turns of 2 strands of a maximum diameter of 20AWG or 0.813mm per slot. A diameter of .813mm is the nominal measurement of 20AWG wire, and that it is the stated maximum wire diameter permitted. It’s on this basis that the Executive Committee made its determination.
Problem 1: There is no tolerance mentioned anywhere in this rule. It is literally impossible to manufacture any product today, especially in China with a zero tolerance. We have supplied letters from our motor company to ROAR saying that the 20AWG that we use is compliant with their rule and every copper wire that is manufactured throughout the world "has some tolerance". ROAR says wire companies do not use any tolerance and make everything EXACT. Are we to be lead to believe that a Chinese or American wire company that has produced wire slightly larger or smaller in size "in this present world economy" is then "melting it down or throwing it away" This is not practical. It is also not practical to have any rule with zero tolerance!
Problem 2: The above rule is confusing and can be misinterpreted because it was not written correctly. You choose either .813mm or 20AWG....
We chose 20AWG wire which are motor company in China ordered and supplied ROAR with the necessary amount of samples, in the same manner Trinity and every other motor manufacturer operates. We paid for the sample motors and paid the ROAR approval fees (in excess of a thousand dollars). We then wait (like every other motor company for either an approval or an issue). If we receive the approval, we then start the production of motors, just like every other motor manufacturer.
Problem 3: We were issued an approval for the D3.5 (17.5) in April of 2012 and released the first batch of D3.5 spec motors in the R.O.A.R. pipeline and have been selling these motors for over TEN (10) months.......
Problem 4: ROAR has confirmed that they have tested recent motors, through spot-checks as well as the "original samples" that are archived at ROAR (like every other motor manufacturer) and they have concluded that the motors have never been changed by Trinity since the initial approval
Problem 5: ROAR faced a number of competing motor manufacturer's with complaints about the motor and ROAR then purchased what they say...."more sophisticated measuring equipment to test motors" than what was available when they tested Trinity and every other motor submitted for the past several years. 
Problem 6: They are now determining that they feel our motor (17.5) does not meet their specification and have pulled this "ONE MOTOR" 17.5 Spec off the list with no warning, no grace period and no discussion with the manufacturer.
Our position here is "WE HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG" and this obviously can "ARBITRARILY HAPPEN AGAIN" to any one of you if your competitors yell loud enough. WE DID NOTHING WRONG. WE COMPLIED TO THEIR SPEC, PAID THEIR FEES, WENT THROUGH THEIR APPROVAL PROCESS, MADE THE D3.5 MORE AVAILABLE TO MORE SOURCES THAN ALL THE OTHER MOTOR MANUFACTURER'S COMBINED!
How do we go forward and our concerns:
A) Our main concern is that this is an "ARBITRARY DECISION" ROAR made due to increased pressure from outside manufacturer's (who should have nothing to do with running the organization). This is a MAJOR CONFLICT OF INTEREST
B) ROAR is assuming NO RESPONSIBILITY for APPROVING THIS MOTOR AND ALLOWING PEOPLE TO BUY THIS FOR OVER 10 MONTHS WHEN WE CHANGED ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FROM THE ORIGINAL APPROVAL
C) ROAR has shown no responsibility for clubs and organizers, distributors, dealers and consumers who purchased this motor "BASED ON THEIE APPROVAL" since they run their establishments on ROAR rules.
D) ROAR has offered NO SOLUTION TO THE MATTER other than they are possibly working a new spec for a motor but have no details or information about this.
In closing I am hoping to speak with the new ROAR President at some point today to go over these points and to see what if anything can be resolved. This press release is just to inform you of what is happening and my promise to you that we will not allow our company, our partners (OEM'S) and our customers suffer without a fight if a "realistic solution can be reached". We are seeking relief from this ruling for the following indisputable reasons:
1) We were granted ROAR approval by Bob Ingersol, The ROAR technical director and the ROAR Executive and ROAR has confirmed we have not changed the motor since it was approved 10 Months AGO!2) ROAR saying they have purchased new equipment which obviously changes the way they approve motors is no concern of ours....it is just a confirmation that they feel their approval process was not up to the task. This is not the fault of any motor manufacturer who complied to ROAR's approval rules3) This is an arbitrary decision with no solution given due to increased pressure from competing manufactures (WHICH IS A MAJOR CONFLICT OF INTEREST) if several parties can exert this type of pressure over a volunteer organization.
Again I am hoping some peaceful and realistic resolution for all parties can be reached quickly. Trinity does not want to seek an immediate injunction or relief from this 'ruling" and force it to be decided in the courts system.
I thank-you for listening and for your continued support for Trinity.
Thanks..Ernie

Ernest N. ProvettiChief Executive OfficerTrincorp, LLC, Team Trinity / Epic
Email: 2:
On Jan 18, 2013, at 2:57 PM, Jeff Schroeder <[email protected]> wrote:
To whom it may concern:

This morning I started my daily business with some very unsettling news. It started with a phone call from a customer, followed by my email inbox being filled with numerous inquiries. By 9:00am this morning, I already had one dealer of ours ask who is going to be responsible for reimbursing them. Just this one request alone could end up costing us several thousand dollars. In the 2 hours it has taken to write this email, my phone and email has been receiving inquiries literally every 5 to 10 minutes.

As you know, I am referring to the announcement that "ROAR" made regarding the ban of the D3.5 17.5 motor. Cutting to the chase, did the ROAR Executive Committee actually give any thought to the trickle down affect this will have on our industry? Did you consider the harm this would do to not only one of the pioneering companies that played a big part in the shaping of this industry as we know it today (Trinity), to the dozens of OEM customers that purchase this product, to the distributors and hundreds of hobby shops, to the thousands of customers who have already purchased this product? Speaking as just one of dozens of OEM customers of Trinity, this is how I have been making my living since 1995. I have a mortgage, a wife and 4 year old to feed and many bills like everyone else. I'm self-employed...If I have to close down and can't find another job, I can't just go down to the unemployment office and file for unemployment benefits and I don't have the resources to go on my own to have "ROAR legal" motor produced before my income dissolves. The 17.5 motor is by far the main product that puts food on my table. I am just one of hundreds, if not thousands, that this is affecting. These are people's lives and families that you are messing with, just because the wire on Trinity's 17.5 motor is .005" over your spec, which isn't even a correct spec in the first place (more on this in the following paragraphs). To say the least, this is appalling and extremely irresponsible.

As mentioned above, the wire specs that ROAR listed are simply not correct. First, the rules state that the wire size can be a maximum diameter of 20AWG or 0.813mm. This in itself is a conflicting statement. Obviously, the person who wrote this rule had no experience with AWG (American Wire Gauge) wire sizes, because if they did, they would know that all AWG wire has indisputable allowable tolerances. Furthermore, all magnet wire conforms to one universal specification, the NEMA MW1000 spec, which allows for these tolerances. Simply put, you cannot list in the rules that the wire can be 20AWG or 0.813mm in the same sentence, because it's absolutely not correct according to AWG standards and is also not grammatically correct. 

As many of you know, my company has been hand winding motors for many years, from 1980 when the original owner started and then taken over by me in 1995. Please find attached a wire chart that was passed on to me from the original owner of Fantom. This is a chart that I have followed whenever a question or concern has came up regarding wire sizes. As you can see, 20AWG wire is listed as three different sizes, i.e. Minimum 0.317" (.80518mm), Nominal 0.032" (.8128mm), and Maximum .0322" (.81788mm). As you can see, tolerances are allowed by AWG standards, so it is wrong for you to list in the rules that the wire can be 20AWG and at the same time be a maximum of 0.813mm in the same sentence. There is no wire manufacturer in the world that can produce wire to the nominal size of .8128mm without an allowable tolerance. It is impossible. 

In light of this situation, I also contacted the wire company that I have been purchasing wire from for many years. The company is MWS Wire Industries and my contact is Kevin McClure. His email address is: [email protected] Upon asking Kevin what the industry specifications are for 20AWG wire, here is what he replied to me: 

With any wire there is always going to be a tolerance, in the case of 20 AWG, the bare copper tolerance is .0317-.0323". You won't find any wire company that can guarantee exactly .032" Bare. FYI: The overall diameter of a 20 STAI wire w/enamel is .0329-.0339". 

If you would like the complete email, to confirm that I am not making this up, I will be happy to forward the entire conversation upon your request, and/or you can email Kevin direct. Please read the above reply carefully and notice that he says that "you won't find any wire company that can guarantee exactly .032" bare wire". Also notice that the tolerances he listed are exactly as the attached chart lists them at (appears he rounded up the maximum to .0323 from .0322 if we are splitting hairs here).

I further investigated AWG wire by reviewing Wikipedia's encyclopedia definition found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge The first sentence reveals the following: American wire gauge (AWG), also known as the Brown & Sharpe wire gauge, is a standardized wire gauge system used since 1857 predominantly in the United States and Canada for the diameters of round, solid, nonferrous, electrically conducting wire.[1]

As you can see, AWG has been a standardized system since 1857. There is simply no arguing that AWG wire has a tolerance and this tolerance should be allowed by ROAR if you are going to put "20AWG" and the "maximum size" in the same sentence of your rules. There is nothing in this world that is produced without a tolerance...even multi-million dollar F14 fighter jets were built with tolerances. In fact, my brother-in-law is a machinist who worked on airplane parts and the tolerances were in the millionths of an inch, but they still allowed tolerances.

As a ROAR Affiliate, at this time I would also like to voice my concerns about Ron Schuur. This is nothing personal, as I do not even know him. My concerns are on a business level only. My concern is that ROAR is allowing a motor company owner (Schuur Speed) to be in charge of motor and battery approvals. If this is not a conflict of interest, I don't know what is. This would not be tolerated in any other industry and should not be tolerated in this industry. It is not right and is irresponsible for all of the other committee members to allow it.

I'm sure some of you may be interested in one of probably dozens of similar forums that I found on the Internet showing the support, or lack of support, to your decision. Here's the link: www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=384615

In conclusion, it is my opinion that the Executive Committee should reinstate the D3.5 17.5 approval and publicly apologize to all of the people who's lives were dramatically affected by this irresponsible action. If ROAR wants to make the future rule state that the wire can only be a maximum of .813mm, then the rule should be rewritten grammatically correct and should eliminate any AWG wire sizes in the same sentence. Also, if a new rule is written, it should not affect current approvals, including the D3.5 17.5. As written, the current rule makes absolutely no sense and should not affect the original approval of the D3.5 17.5 motor. As mentioned above, this action has affected mine and my family's life and countless others lives. This matter needs immediate attention and needs to be resolved quickly. If it is not resolved quickly, I will join with Trinity and do everything I can to help them legally resolve this matter. I would hope as professionals, that we can all come together and resolve this situation without involving litigation. It simply comes down to that one sentence, published by ROAR, that is indisputably incorrect: "Rule 8.8.4.3.1...a maximum diameter of 20AWG or 0.813 mm per slot". This rule will not hold up under litigation.

Please note that I will be posting this on our Facebook page as well as to our mailing list consisting of about 1200 members.

Thank you for your time.

Regards,
Jeff Schroeder
Owner: Fantom Racing 

Email 3:
To: [email protected], Ron Schuur <[email protected]>, Steve Pond <[email protected]>, Jim Dieter <[email protected]>, anthony przybylowicz <[email protected]>and 7 more…Cc: Bob Stormer <[email protected]>, Frank Calandra <[email protected]>, Brian Wynn <[email protected]>, Mike Boylan <[email protected]>, ALLAN Arrington <[email protected]>, Erich Reichert <[email protected]>and 5 more…Fwd: stator pic 
The more we get into this......it is clear ROAR has acted irresponsible in this abrupt decision....
1) All AWG wire has a tolerance....proven by Jeff at Fantom and Jim Dieter (ROAR's information on tolerance levels were inaccurate)
2) I do not know what laser or robotic machine you purchased that you felt you needed. We used the same method ROAR has used for the past 30 years....a caliper. It meets the specs
You owe Trinity, it's partners, customers and racers everywhere an apology. You also owe Bob Ingersol, the ROAR Technical Director an apology....he was "thrown under the bus" for no apparent reason, Bob like Trinity did nothing wrong.....
3) We received your approval in April 2012 and have sold the motors for 10 months yet you DQ this motor in one day with no grace period or any regard for anyone and have taken no responsibility for your actions! This is ROAR's mistake
I am calling for an immediate repeal for your judgment (which is not based on facts) immediately!
Please see concrete proof below.....


Begin forwarded message:

From: Jeff Schroeder <[email protected]>
Date: January 18, 2013, 6:20:40 PM EST
To: Ernest Provetti <[email protected]>
Subject: stator pic

Ernie,

Here's a pic I just took of a random stator that I just destroyed to measure the wire. This came from the shipment I just received a couple days ago. As you can see, it measures exactly at the nominal size that 20AWG wire is supposed to be, which is .032" (0.8128mm).

Jeff

Ernest N. ProvettiChief Executive OfficerTRINCORP, LLCTeam Trinity, Revtech, TRC, EPICP.O. Box 520747
Longwood FLORIDA 32752-0747
United StatesPhone [email protected]lusive Importer for Trinity, Revtech, Team Epic Inc., TRC


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## dr voodoo (Mar 13, 2009)

Thanks for time


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## ThrottleKing (Feb 13, 2008)

Does all the other 17.5 motors and stators out there that are approved pass the same test?

I read on their site that back in October they were suspending new motor approvals while they redo the approval requirements and standards so that they can level the playing field and attempt to make things equal and fair for competitors.

Jeremiah Ward


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## Winditout (Jan 12, 2011)

Boy did my d3.5 run fast today. We had 8 cars in the main for 17.5 blinky 12th scale and we all had the d3.5's. Mine is a Cerified and it really ran strong. We say in out club were not running a cheater motor because we all have them and we compair roll outs and timing with everybody. 
Also the battery to run are the Sting. I am sure glase we have Trinity for a supplier, makes Blinky a bunch more fun to run.


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## cobra22431 (Aug 27, 2006)

Changing the way or tools u measure wire with, is like changing the rule. You cant issue approval and let tons of motors be sold for almost a year and then go back and measure it with different tools and and now say its illegal. This shows no respect for the racers who own these motors, the hobby shops and distributors who have them in stock and the MFG. Roar, did you not even think for one minute about the struggling track owner who sold his racers this motor and now you want him to tell them they cant use them? The question here is who is going to pay for this decision? Maybe Roar should pay for new stators for all the motors made so far if they want to change the way they measure wire and the approval. Then it wont be so easy to make the decision they did.


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## buckeye dan (Aug 31, 2010)

*hmmmmm*

To me sounds like roar is little kid that is losing a game and decides to change rules in middle of game.I dont really have a dog in the fight but it seems like trintity motors had advantage and other manufacturers didnt like it so changed the rules. Seems wrong to me to tell a budget racer hey that motor you paid for is no longer legal. If you think about it 17.5 motor is a mild stock type motor and ussaly budget racers tend to race this class . So i guess i will side with trinity on this. 
Reminds me of being a kid playing monopoly and my brother getting mad and throwing board on floor. lol
Its toy car racing quit changing the rules....


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## dr voodoo (Mar 13, 2009)

January 21, 2013

Dear Partners and Customers:

Here is a timeline of what we believe is one of the worst decisions R.O.A.R. has made in it’s history of governing R/C cars. I hope you will read “this side of the story” and then form your opinion.

On Thursday evening January 17, 2013 at 11:08PM I received an email from Steve Pond. Steve called this a “courtesy email” to inform me that ROAR has removed Trinity’s D3.5 (17.5) motor from the approved list. If you look below, 12 minutes later this was posted on the R.O.A.R. website....Nice courtesy. This was the discussion ROAR had with the manufacture involved with one of the biggest decisions, impacting thousands of racers, manufacturer’s and hobby shops alike? 






After a great deal of consideration the ROAR Executive Committee has determined that the Trinity D3.5 motor and others based on the D3.5, do not comply with the organization’s required specifications for motors in the 17.5 stock class. The determination is based on the fact that motors being sold are built with wire that’s larger than maximum specification permitted. All of the random samples of the D3.5 based motors during the announced compliance checks tested with wire that’s larger than the maximum dimension. Rule 8.8.4.3.1 states clearly that “The three slotted stator must be wound with 17.5 turns of 2 strands of a maximum diameter of 20AWG or 0.813 mm per slot. A diameter of .813mm is the nominal measurement of 20AWG wire, and that it is the stated maximum wire diameter permitted. It’s on this basis that the Executive Committee made its determination.
This entry was posted on Thursday, January 17th, 2013 at 11:20 pm and is filed under Approval News,
Steve also said in his email the following:
“I believe, based on what you’ve told me, that you intended the D3.5 motors to be in compliance, which I’m certain is the reason it was submitted for approval to Bob Ingersoll (RHI). The same methodology used to approve all previous motors was used. The difference being the wire used in your motors was larger than the permitted specification (BUT IT WAS NOT AS PROVED LATER IN THIS DOCUMENT), but by a small enough increment that it was initially undetected using measuring equipment with a standard level of precision.”


Trinity’s Position: (FACTS):

The Trinity D3.5 (17.5):

Was submitted to Bob Ingersol, The ROAR technical director and was approved by Bob Ingersol and the ROAR Executive Committee and has been on the ROAR approved list for over 10 months! We believe Bob Ingersol who is not only the Technical Inspector for ROAR but for IFMAR as well “is an expert” in this field and NO ONE in our industry in the past 10 years have torn apart and tested more brushed and brushless motors in the R/C industry.

Steve Pond told me by phone that evening that he was doing the testing on our motor due to a large amount of complaints from “competing motor manufacturer’s. He also confirmed that he tested random motors that he purchased throughout the industry on his own as well as ‘the archived motors” that Bob Ingersol and ROAR keep after every submittal. The motor specifications “WERE THE SAME”....meaning Trinity had not changed “ANYTHING” since these motors were submitted to ROAR over 10 months ago!

Why is Bob Ingersol not testing these motors? Why is the “then ROAR President” testing and re-testing a motor that has been ROAR approved for 10 months. Does anyone think it is “odd” that Steve Pond with “very little electric motor experience” testing these motors? 


If ROAR feels the need for ‘whatever reason’ to purchase new equipment should older motors that already were approved by ROAR be subjected to now new equipment (that sill remains nameless) and different protocols for legality? Does anyone else find this strange? If ROAR wants to install new testing equipment it is their right but shouldn’t they have launched a date for new approvals for motors that have not already passed inspection to try and enforce new protocol for new specifications?

It is now rumored that one of the “competing motor manufacturer’s” who complained the loudest about our motors actually purchased the new equipment for ROAR? Does anyone see this a “possible conflict of interest”. This would almost be as bad as ROAR having a ‘competing’ motor manufacturer (Ron Schurr of Schurr Speed) sitting on the ROAR Executive Board in charge of submissions and legality of new products?

*This decision seems to be one a “lawyer dreams about”......

Steve Pond has repeatedly said that US copper wire manufacturer’s produce copper wire with “ZERO TOLERANCE”. When I first heard this my initial response to him was there is “nothing manufactured in the world” which has ZERO TOLERANCE. Jim Dieter, the designer of the Trinity motor confirmed this and tried to give examples to Steve Pond on how this statement was false. We had a letter signed by the company owner who produced this motor in China that the motor was wound with 20AWG wire (as ROAR rules state) and complied to ROAR’s specifications.

*We received no return comment from Steve Pond.

Jeff Schroeder, the owner of Fantom Motors who has more expertise in winding electric armatures with “copper wire” has supplied the ROAR Executive Committee with “hard facts and contact people to call in this country” showing that all copper wire is sold with tolerances which means “Steve’s initial thinking that the 20AWG has no variance due to tolerances” was a “COMPLETE FABRICATION” of the truth.

Here are excerpts from Jeff Schroeder’s very factual letter to ROAR:

As mentioned above, the wire specs that ROAR listed are simply not correct. First, the rules state that the wire size can be a maximum diameter of 20AWG or 0.813mm. This in itself is a conflicting statement. Obviously, the person who wrote this rule had no experience with AWG (American Wire Gauge) wire sizes, because if they did, they would know that all AWG wire has indisputable allowable tolerances. Furthermore, all magnet wire conforms to one universal specification, the NEMA MW1000 spec, which allows for these tolerances. Simply put, you cannot list in the rules that the wire can be 20AWG or 0.813mm in the same sentence, because it's absolutely not correct according to AWG standards. 

B) In light of this situation, I also contacted the wire company that I have been purchasing wire from for many years. The company is MWS Wire Industries and my contact is Kevin McClure. His email address is: [email protected] Upon asking Kevin what the industry specifications are for 20AWG wire, here is what he replied to me: 

With any wire there is always going to be a tolerance, in the case of 20 AWG, the bare copper tolerance is .0317-.0323". You won't find any wire company that can guarantee exactly .032" Bare. FYI: The overall diameter of a 20 STAI wire w/enamel is .0329-.0339". 

If you would like the complete email, to confirm that I am not making this up, I will be happy to forward the entire conversation upon your request, and/or you can email 

Note: Jeff at Fantom has received “NO RESPONSE” from Steve Pond or the ROAR EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE

There is simply no arguing that AWG wire has a tolerance and this tolerance should be allowed by ROAR if you are going to put "20AWG" and the "maximum size" in the same sentence of your rules. There is nothing in this world that is produced without a tolerance...even multi-million dollar F14 fighter jets were built with tolerances. In fact, my brother-in-law is a machinist who worked on airplane parts and the tolerances were in the millionths of an inch, but they still allowed tolerances.

Jeff has also posted photos of stators that he has measured himself with calipers....the same method that ROAR has used for the past 30 years!

Here's a pic I just took of a random stator that I just destroyed to measure the wire. This came from the shipment I just received a couple days ago. As you can see, it measures exactly at the nominal size that 20AWG wire is supposed to be, which is .032" (0.8128mm).


Jeff Schroeder, Fantom Racing


We can all keep going on and on about how accurate our tools are, but for all intensive purposes, let's just say that all of our tools are accurate to within .0001" (= .00254mm), which is realistic for a good quality set of calipers.

Now let's say that Ron Schurr or Steve Pond’s super duper measuring equipment is correct. The photo floating around the Internet shows the measurement he obtained to be 0.84mm (= .033"). Now check this measurement against AWG (American Wire Gauge) standards for 19.5AWG wire, which would be the next size bigger wire to 20AWG, that Trinity could have chosen for their motors. AWG standards show that 19.5AWG wire tolerances are as follows: Minimum .0336" (.85344mm), Nominal .0339" (= .86106mm), Maximum .0341" (= .86614mm). As you can see, even the minimum size allowed by AWG standards is .85344mm, which is a difference of .01344mm larger than what Ron obtained for Trinity's wire size. In my opinion, this proves that Trinity is using 20AWG wire, which is legal according to ROAR, and that there is a discrepancy in how Ron obtained his measurement. Any competition motor company in their right mind is going to use the maximum wire size they can, which is 20AWG...19.5AWG is simply too big to try and get away with. 

Regarding my first paragraph, the point I was trying to make is that no matter how fancy or how accurate your measuring tools are, it comes down to how well the user knows how to use it. If the tool isn't being used correctly, there will be discrepancies. I would like to know what machine they have, when did they buy it, who purchased it and how much time or experience they have on it? It was paid for with “membership money...right? If so, I and every other member and affiliate deserve to know this. They cannot keep it secret....

One final point... Just for the heck of it, I measured the wire on a 17.5 stator again, where the enamel coating was not removed. Where I measured the wire without enamel, I get .032" (= .8128mm) and where I measured it with enamel I get .84mm (.033"). Is Ron measuring Trinity's wire with the enamel coating left on? Makes you wonder. My testing shows that Trinity is using just plain Jane 20AWG...


You have now finished reading a “FACTUAL ACCOUNT OF WHAT HAS OCCURRED”

How do we go forward and our concerns:

A) Our main concern is that this is an "ARBITRARY DECISION" ROAR made due to increased pressure from outside manufacturer's (who should have nothing to do with running the organization). This is a MAJOR CONFLICT OF INTEREST and ROAR has made an irresponsible decision here without any time or thought process of how it affects the entire industry. Forget the fact that they are “WRONG” in all of their technical decisions as shown above!

B) ROAR is assuming NO RESPONSIBILITY for APPROVING THIS MOTOR AND ALLOWING PEOPLE TO BUY THIS FOR OVER 10 MONTHS WHEN WE CHANGED ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FROM THE ORIGINAL APPROVAL (confirmed by Steve Pond)

C) ROAR has shown no responsibility for clubs and organizers, distributors, dealers, oem manufacturer’s and consumers who purchased this motor "BASED ON R.O.A.R.‘s APPROVAL" since they run their establishments based on ROAR rules.

ROAR has offered NO SOLUTION OR RESOLVE TO THE MATTER.

It is our opinion that if a court heard this case, an immediate injunction would be granted to keep selling the motor until a court decided on the outcome. I think ROAR should immediately RESCIND this decision and put the Trinity D3.5 (17.5) back on the approved list and take some responsibility for these actions...their information and protocol for what they have done here is not only wrong but completely inexcusable.

ROAR has not considered (obviously) enough how this decision impacts the entire industry at large and the growth of our industry in a very troubled economy where our industry is trying to compete. They are not only impacting Trinity

ROAR, Steve Pond and Ron Schurr have labelled Trinity and all of our oem partners who sell this motor “cheaters”. Remember the ‘competing manufacturer’s do not sell any of their motors on an “oem basis”...they only sell these units themselves (something which used to be illegal when people like Mike Reedy and others were running ROAR.....a motor had to be sold to everyone so there was no edge)
ROAR has not considered the amount of 17.5’s that have been sold to distributors, dealers, consumers and the like and have made a decision “based on the wrong information” which have impacted all of their business and their ability to feed their families and exist in a terrible US economy. People do not have the money to go and buy all new motors with this decision based down by ROAR
If R.O.A.R. wants to go forward with a new specification and use new Testing equipment protocols they should do this in the next calendar year and consult with all “ROAR affiliated manufacturer’s” and ROAR members for feedback, not have a Kangaroo court of a few people making the decisions of many with an impractical starting date for the entire industry.
For the better of racing and our entire industry, ROAR needs to accept responsibility and right this wrong.......
ROAR should also move forward with the new ROAR President and eliminate all conflicts of interest “within the Executive Committee” so something like this never happens again.
We understand that ROAR is based on the “effort and good will” of volunteers but those volunteers must understand that they have the “responsibility to do what is best for the membership and they hold the livelihood of the ROAR affiliate manufacturer’s whom they look to for support in their hands! Example: shutting down R.O.A.R. submissions of new motors since October of 2012 and still not giving a new date for submissions impacts every motor company in the R/C industry. ROAR needs to be a better job here and understand it cannot penalize or hurt the affiliate manufacturer’s with decisions based on pure ‘emotions’ with no regard for the business decision and economic well being of companies that depend on this to make their “living”




How would you feel if you purchased a home and moved your family into the home with your life-savings. You received your Certificate of Occupancy from the building inspector, your family, kids in school etc etc. Then 10 months later, the Building Inspector knocks on your door and says he has pulled your Certificate of Occupancy Certificate because they are now “approving these in a different way” and you will either have to comply or leave your house? How would you feel? Even people who are this impossible to deal with (Building Inspectors) would not do this...and would “grand-father” your house under the old approvals if the town had decided to do something new or the town called for new testing for the betterment of the town. Think about it ROAR...you are WRONG!


In closing, Trinity and it’s oem partners hope ROAR and their new leadership can understand our frustration and correct this situation now so this does not have to be turned over to the court system where everyone loses. But we cannot accept a decision based on the facts we have presented above. I am hoping the new leadership in ROAR can see the problems and the injustice and will “right” the “wrong” that has been done very soon.

Sincerely,
Ernest N. Provetti
Trincorp, LLC, Managing Partner







Ernest N. Provetti
Chief Executive Officer
TRINCORP, LLC
Team Trinity, Revtech, TRC, EPIC
P.O. Box 520747
Longwood FLORIDA 32752-0747
United States
Phone 386-668-7771
www.teamtrinity.com
[email protected]
Exclusive Importer for Trinity, Revtech, Team Epic Inc., TRC


Ernest N. Provetti
Chief Executive Officer
TRINCORP, LLC
Team Trinity, Revtech, TRC, EPIC
P.O. Box 520747
Longwood FLORIDA 32752-0747
United States
Phone 386-668-7771
www.teamtrinity.com
[email protected]
Exclusive Importer for Trinity, Revtech, Team Epic Inc., TRC


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## ta_man (Apr 10, 2005)

dr voodoo said:


> January 21, 2013
> 
> Dear Partners and Customers:
> 
> ...


After the 10th or 20th or 30th time of posting these humongous emails saying the same thing over and over, do you think anyone cares enough actually read them any more?


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## dr voodoo (Mar 13, 2009)

Waite a few hrs I have a new one lol


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## caalvord (Mar 12, 2010)

buckeye dan said:


> To me sounds like roar is little kid that is losing a game and decides to change rules in middle of game.I dont really have a dog in the fight but it seems like trintity motors had advantage and other manufacturers didnt like it so changed the rules. Seems wrong to me to tell a budget racer hey that motor you paid for is no longer legal. If you think about it 17.5 motor is a mild stock type motor and ussaly budget racers tend to race this class . So i guess i will side with trinity on this.
> Reminds me of being a kid playing monopoly and my brother getting mad and throwing board on floor. lol
> Its toy car racing quit changing the rules....


its like racing spec sc with the buckeye 5.....lol how you guys doing


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## dr voodoo (Mar 13, 2009)

This is a letter used by permision from a racer in ny trying too get a answer from roar this instead is what he got !,

Hey guys i argued my point with steve for a while on rctech he told me in a private message he was banning me from roar for being a dick so i told him that kind of talk can get you sued so he immediately responded by saying sorry this has been a very tough thing to deal with i stopped posting cause it was really getting to me and consuming my time so aggravating,th en i was told by a thunder power driver that they bought the new equipment that they test the motors with which isn't even made to test the diameter of the wire its for testing material that is machined for tolerances,wh at i think is funny i used to do mil spec work the only correct way to test wire diameter correctly by military spec is a simple gauge which has holes drilled through it to measure the wire if it fits its good if it doesn't its not good,all it is is a piece of round stainless steel with exact wire diameter holes in it.I remembered the issue roar gave us at the nats with the apex not allowed which was funny cause thunder power was the ones causing the issue,steve pond has no engineering background or any in electronics he used to race with us at rc madness in ct and always thought he was better than anyone else cause he worked for rc car action so some things don't change,well if you need anything from me let me know if i can help out in anyway. hope you have a better week talk to you soon 

Warren 

J


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## C-TRAIN (Dec 8, 2009)

:thumbsup:


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## dr voodoo (Mar 13, 2009)

Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2013 11:24 PM
To: 'Steve Merk' ; 'Hill Ed' ; 'Ron Schuur' ; 'Jason Mackanick' ; 'Clarke Denise'
Cc: 'administrator'

Hello Steve and the rest of the executive committee,
After a discussion with Ron this evening, I'm starting to question whether or not this action with Trinity is worth any more of our time, and spending any more of the members money. Ron had a discussion with Jim from Tekin, and many of us have had ongoing discussions with Bob at Novak, Jim at Thunder Power, and various other motor manufacturers. What's become abundantly clear is that ROAR is being left to stand alone in this dispute with Trinity. Despite all the lofty rhetoric from most of the manufacturers when it was discovered that the Trinity motor was simply too fast and was probably illegal, every one of them offered whatever help was necessary should we decide to reverse the approval of the Trinity D3.5 motor due to the oversize wire. Well, now that we are on the verge of engaging in legal action with Trinity, we've been left to stand alone by all the aforementioned. Tekin has even gone so far as to insult ROAR by suggesting "it's no good." Needless to say there are a lot of raw nerves on the part of many involved in this process, but the complete lack of support from the other motor manufacturers in the industry, and especially those that were most vocal about the fact that the D3.5 was improperly approved, has significantly diminished my motivation to defend our actions on their behalf.
Our decision to remove the D3.5 from the approval list is a principled and correct decision. The wire is too big, verified by his own attorney. On that basis alone I feel that ROAR has a very strong case against Trinity and would more than likely prevail. It appears now that we're fighting a potentially costly and time-consuming battle on behalf of people that will not stand in our corner.
It's therefore my recommendation that we reconsider this action against Trinity, restore the motor to the approved list, and work with Trinity on a schedule to phase out the motor on the basis that it still remains illegal. The affiliated manufacturers have a right for their complaints to be heard, and to expect us to act upon those complaints. But, if we are not going to have their support, then I don't see the need to pursue any further action. It's taking up a lot of the time and could potentially drain many of our resources that can be used for much more positive purposes. I'm interested in everyone's thoughts on the subject. If there is a consensus for this course correction, then I think we need to act upon it quickly. Steve M, the decision of how we go forward is ultimately up to you and if you decide you want to continue with this action, I will invest as much time and energy is needed to defend ourselves. But at this point I don't see any need to continue to waste our time and resources to defend manufacturers that will not support us.
Best regards,
Steve Pond
NOTE: Our attorney has never said in writing or verbally that our wire gauge is too big. It simply is not. We are dealing with a supposed overage of .001 (less than a


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