# Ebay Blue McLaren Elva Flamethrower??



## adiaz (Nov 26, 2012)

C'mon People wake up smell the coffee!

A blue Mclaren Elva sells on eBay for $1116.66???

This is insane! Why you ask? Because THEY WERE NEVER MADE!
In the 35+ years I have been collecting I have never seen a MIB "sealed" from the Aurora Factory a Blue McLaren Elva Flamethrower. But they do show up loose now and again.
Show me a factory sealed boxed one, then I will believe.
I guess a fool and his money are quickly departed as the saying goes! take a look at this auction:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/AURORA-T-JET-1431-McLAREN-ELVA-FLAMETHROWER-in-RARE-BLUE-/281054325422?pt=Slot_Cars&hash=item417024aaae&nma=true&si=SemK7%252Ft4e1e%252BHQ%252BfcxVOTuHwGfk%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
Notice the car sold with No Provenance, No Letter Authentivcation. Hmmm wonder why?
Look at photo's closely. especially under the chassis. Light bars look cloudy? probably as a result of removal (happens all the time) and appears like this on most loose ones I have seen. Look at piles of glue. Ever see MEK glue like that? Compare it to you other Elva's. It' not quite the same is it? I wonder why?

How can anyone spend that kind of money with no proof it is what seller says it is.
I contacted seller and he said he had no authentication. He also said he's been collecting tjets for 5 years and this is the fourth one he had seen. Oddly all loose.
I guess we now know where these are comming from.

Please prove me wrong. Show me a factory sealed Aurora Plastics Corp. example.


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## JordanZ870 (Nov 25, 2004)

I can do amazing things with micro files too.
It is not that hard to open up a body, just 
time consuming. Too bad he didn't go the extra
yardage on the glue mess.


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## bobwoodly (Aug 25, 2008)

I am far from expert. I've seen a few thousands of cars and no blue Elva Flamethrowers. 

He has sold 3 Ford J Butterscotch cars in the last few months for big money - easy enough to strip a white car and do a repaint. What are the odds of one person having several Ford J Butterscotch cars? You can bet he has more blue Flamethrowers on their way now that he has seen the big money.


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## sethndaddy (Dec 4, 2004)

Damn I tell ya, it does look good, but not worth that much.


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

"I guess we now know where these are comming from."

No, where?

I'd watch his purchases. The light bars have to come from the only cheap and plentiful source....black ones.


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## Gerome (Sep 25, 2011)

Page 27 of John Clark's HO slot car identification and price guide shows 1431 flamethrower McLaren Elva and states colors as black, blue, green and red. 

Page 90 of Greenberg's guide to Aurora slot cars by Thomas Graham verifies those colors.


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## adiaz (Nov 26, 2012)

Greenburgs guide is based off Bob Beers collection.

Here is a post on this subject from Bob Beers emailed to me.

"The Greenberg book had my collection for the photos. They brought a crew to my house. The list of cars in the back was a compilation of my knowledge and johansens guide at the time. A few cars were rumored but never saw like a blue Indy and a tan dune buggy. In 2003 the book was edited mainly to adjust prices that are never on target anyway. Bob beers. "

So because it is in a book doesn't make it so


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## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

" I read it on the internet ! "


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## slotcarman12078 (Oct 3, 2008)

Where's Darrell at?? Being a French model from the internet, he should know these things!! :lol:


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

I may have to make a special run of Elva Lamethrowers...one of every color.


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## wyatt641 (Jan 14, 2012)

i want one of each..willing to pay top$$$$$$$....does monopoly money spend well???


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## swamibob (Jan 20, 2009)

Hello Gents:

I have seen both the blue and green Elva flamethrower cars. I own a red one. They are real. Now that particular one on Ebay, I don't know if it's real or not. I haven't see either color in several years, last time was probably 3 or 4 years ago at the Midwest Slot Show.

Tom


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

*Legal Tender*



wyatt641 said:


> i want one of each..willing to pay top$$$$$$$....does monopoly money spend well???


....only on Boardwalk or Park avenue. Unfortunately I live on "H" street.


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## warnergt (Feb 9, 2000)

I believe the blue McLaren Elva Flamethrowers are real but very rare. I have seen them several times before on ebay and from reputable sellers. Blue McLaren Elvas have fetched from $800 to $1225.

Green and red McLaren Elva Flamethrowers are somewhat rare fetching between $100 and $200.

Black McLaren Elva Flamethrowers are very common and fetch about $35.

Here is a picture of another one:


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## Gerome (Sep 25, 2011)

Interesting the light bars are glued in like the one in question. I checked my black one and the bars are spot melted in.


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## warnergt (Feb 9, 2000)

You got me curious so I checked my McLaren Elva Flamethrowers. 
I have two black ones. They are both glued similarly to the blue one in the picture.


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## wyatt641 (Jan 14, 2012)

okay..now i gotta go find my black one to check the light bars.....melted or glued???


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## NTxSlotCars (May 27, 2008)

I have a white one. It's more rare than the blue one...


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## adiaz (Nov 26, 2012)

I can't believe how much attention this topic is getting.

I thank everyone for the input.

Warnergt, those are some pretty persuasive photographs of a Blue McLaren Elva Flamethrower.

I am leaning toward their legitimate existance but not totally convinced. It is not a factory sealed box.
Thanks!


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## Gerome (Sep 25, 2011)

So I checked the one and a half black bodies and one is glued and it appears the half, used half to make goop, is melted at the windshield peg. Could be an aftermarket modification.


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

The glue schlobber isnt something I consider to be an authenticating point. A vintage reglue, OR a sloppy friday at the factory glue job have little to do with authenticity. What we (I) need to see are good macro comparisons of the light bucket cut outs front and rear; and their immediate vacinities, to a known common model issue.

If there are any "tells" to be had they will be there. The fake is a fairly straightforward process in this case. However most hackers arent willing to go the extra effort to completely wipe their tracks. The technique to execute an imperceptible fake is quite advanced, but the actual area requiring correction is a very small, very narrow, edge around the cutouts.


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## SCJ (Jul 15, 1999)

There are indeed at least four colors (recently heard rumor of a tan one?) of the flamethrower McLaren, with Green and Blue being the most rare.

Is the car/auction in question a legit Aurora produced car....no real way of telling without putting it under a microscope. It does look as though the lite bars have been reglued at a minimum.


--------------------------
www.SlotCarJohnnies.com


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## adiaz (Nov 26, 2012)

*warnergt your blue McLaren Elva May be a fake*

I did a bit more scrutinizing of this subject. Took out the Aurora Flamethrower McLaren Elva's and the Tjet McLaren Elva's.

What I found is that the Flamethrowers all had light wells molded into the plastic of the bodies. They are rectangular in shape and are the full length of the headlight. They are located to the left of the left headlamp and to the right of the right headlamp, when looking at the car head on. There is also a raised bead of plastic from the mold that goes around the opening of the healamp. 

See Photo:










This lightwell is not present in Tjet version:

See photo:










If you go to the ebay auction the light well is not there. Now warnergt's Elva in this thread looks like it may have sort of a well but it isn't the same. It looks like the remnant of the uncut headlamp of a Tjet Elva.
I hope I am wrong!
Warnergt, would it be possible for you to post a better photo of the front headlamp area of your Blue McLaren Elva Flamethrower. I would like to scrutinize this area of your car.
Thanks!


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## Dslot (Sep 2, 2007)

adiaz said:


> I did a bit more scrutinizing of this subject. Took out the Aurora Flamethrower McLaren Elva's and the Tjet McLaren Elva's.
> 
> What I found is that the Flamethrowers all had light wells molded into the plastic of the bodies. They are rectangular in shape and are the full length of the headlight. They are located to the left of the left headlamp and to the right of the right headlamp, when looking at the car head on. There is also a raised bead of plastic from the mold that goes around the opening of the healamp. ...
> 
> ...


I wish I could agree, *Adiaz* but after looking at mine under high magnification, I can't. I think what you're calling the lightwell is just the remnants of the depression which represents the headlight, and it's cast into the original version too, but it's disguised by the silver paint added into it.










But using your method to look at the back panel, I think we might be able to find telltale differences. 

Note that in the original, there are rectangular depressions representing vent openings around the exhaust, and that they go all the way up to the base of the spoiler. These are absent in the Flamethrower. If you examine an alleged Flamethrower body, and it has the remnants of these depressions above or below the long taillight, it probably started life as a pre-Flamethrower body. 

Also note that the original body has the round brakelight bezel very close to the vertical die mark. If there is any remnant of the bezel outboard of the long Flamethrower brakelight, then the body is probably a modified original.

A possible third giveaway is the roughness on my black Flamethrower, just below the taillights. I'm guessing this is where the diemaker ground down the projection in the die which created the original square depression around the exhaust. He would have to have done this on the upper part too, under the spoiler. However, since the part under the taillight is not very visible, he didn't bother to carefully polish and even up the ground-down part, as he did above the taillight. He just ran a rough toolhead across the projection and onto the surface of the die beside it. So the plastic filled the rough tooling and became slight ridges and lumps. However - this roughness could be from other causes, perhaps glue from the taillight, or later work by the customer before the car got to me.

Can anybody else verify these observations and guesses?

-- D


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## Ralphthe3rd (Feb 24, 2011)

DSlot- very good observations around the tail light and exhaust area :thumbsup:


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

*D-slot Nails It!*

Ding ding ding! Winner! You must have known I've been studying on EXACTLY how to execute a flawless copy. 

The front light buckets cutouts are easily duplicated. Much to do about nutten'. A careful inspection of Warner's blue model reveals the correct molded depression anyway. Whether it is original or not remains to be seen. 

Ultimately the factory really made a mess of it. The front body cutouts were awkwardly done to suit the shape of the light bar; rather than excising the entire surface of the light bucket and designing the light bar to fit the actual bucket shape as they corrected in the AFX versions. Take a gander at their other hapless T-jet lamethrower victims....giggle. Notably that ineptitude was one of the motivating factors when Joe D began "Creative Light and Motion"....just for the record. 

The correct look will be skewed upward and to the right with the top edge of the cutout just overlapping the original lightbucket ...so up and away for a ball on the driver side and right on the top edge on the passenger side for an American league strike. Regardless the lenses are well shy and inboard of the mark width wise on both sides; so there will be a cosmetically dubious remnant edge. Duplicating this feature might prove difficult because it's a sloppy mess and the natural human tendency is to make correction. You'll have to intentionally screw it up to get it right! :tongue: 

As you have beautifully illustrated, her back side is the money maker. Your analysis of the exhaust cut outs is dead nuts on. As an experienced modeler of styrene, I could easily tight-rope the outer edge of the tail lamps while creating the outside edge for the tail lamp cutout. The detail of the original lamp is proud of the surface, so it's a removal with no filler. Nick it off, profile it, cut and rub....next victim please. A matter of minutes here.

The crux of the biscuit IS the exhaust cutouts and how far they rise up the backside. Obviously the factory drew a straight line across the bottom of the cutouts for the first incision. It's the most expedient line. AGAIN easily duplicated in minutes. The connective tissue in between them remains unchanged. 

The upper line is the ONLY place that ametuer couldnt fumble their way through. Now scrutinized thanx to your pix, the factory retrofit filler piece looks lumpy and clumsily done by model murdering standards. Most good modelers could extract a light bar without killing it; then cut, file and polish their way through a flamethrower Elva replica. Then all but a very small minority would surely crash and burn when actually having to add material and cut it back to clean the upper line. 

Grafting a filler chunk in her behind, shaping the cutouts and buffing it off is simple enough as grafts go. However, great caution would have to be excercised while tippy toeing along the external vertical mold lines on either side of the valence so's not to clobber them; AND serious attention to detail would have to be observed along the inside edge of the rear portion of the valence to ensure good clean square lines. In the end the entire rear panel would require a color blend to finish it off properly...so....uhh..... it's definately NOT something you walk up and do the first time. 

As you have demonstrated, a good macro shot inside and out of the booty of Warner's Blue Elva should end the matter conclusively. Your $64,000 check is in the mail.


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## billcj (Jun 19, 2012)

hmmmm...where's my Dremel ????










:devil:


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## Ralphthe3rd (Feb 24, 2011)

So now ! Ahem, with all this newly found FRAUD detection info, can you glean the Truth about the OP Ebay Blue Elva from THIS Pic ....


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## Hilltop Raceway (Feb 12, 2006)

Looks like it's missing the parachute and wheelie bars, I could be wrong...RM


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## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

send all those fake McLarens to me for proper disposal!


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

Close Ralph, 

The pic needs to be more dead on so we can see where the valence meets deck at the duck tail, preferrably a hair left or right so the the details or lack of them is highlighted. Note the angles used by D-slot.

At a glance I'm, not seeing the mold lines, again that could be the angle.


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## warnergt (Feb 9, 2000)

adiaz said:


> Warnergt, would it be possible for you to post a better photo of the front headlamp area of your Blue McLaren Elva Flamethrower. I would like to scrutinize this area of your car.
> Thanks!


Sorry, I don't have a blue McLaren Elva Flame thrower. 
That is an old picture from ebay that I happened to save.
I've never seen a blue McLaren Elva firsthand. 
Now that you have my curiosity piqued, I will be taking a closer look at 
the McLaren Elvas that I do have.


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## Dslot (Sep 2, 2007)

*Morose Late-Night Reflections on the McL-E*

Sleuthing out hobby-industry history is always interesting, but some models make me wonder 'why bother?' 

Take a look at the 1:1 McLaren Elva M1A








Nice, '60s graceful-mean, like the girlfriend you could never quite make it work with, but thirty years later you still want one more shot at it. Makes the pulse pound a bit quicker; you get a faint smell of exhaust and hot oil, right here in your old-guy recliner. What would it be like to drive - behind those sleek, muscular fender-bulges with your butt three inches above the flowing 120-mph pavement? 

And now Aurora's version








Aww, Mama Mia! What were they thinking? Oh, I hope Derek Brand didn't do the sculpting on this one. 

Every time I look at it, I wonder why I'm not in 1:32.









Sigh. 

But hey, wait a minute - the upper surface isn't too bad. If I can manage one of those Lo-Profile slam-mods to the chassis, then I could file the sides up, so they're not so deep, and round them off. Then put bigger wheels on it and grind the wheelwells upward, closer to the fender-tops, sacrificing the fender flares (or developing my Zen sense and learning the ways of goop). And then ... and then ...

Sigh.

-- D


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## Ralphthe3rd (Feb 24, 2011)

Yep- D, that car body is one of the reasons I DON'T WANT to collect ALL T-Jet bodies. Coz there are some renditions(like the Elva),that just wanna make me blow Chunks !


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

Yeah...the ugly on the T-jet Elva is never gonna buff out!










Been studying on this model for years. It may be time to try again. I over bid the back tires on my first attempt and had to down size. The nose will have to get pulled waaaaaay out. The rear has to get pushed up a mile and the rockers and valences have to get hiked. Even with my drop axle treatment, shortened screw posts, and scooped out inner body; a hair over 3/16th's is about the best you can do....and thats not gonna get ya even close.






















My Ferrosa Testerrari demonstrates a rhinoplasty with fender pod resculpt; and importantly, the limit of how far one can sink the cockpit onto the gear plate and the relationship of the axle centers. If one draws a horizontal line through the axle centers and another parallel line across the cockpit one can see that the distance between will NEVER approximate the Elva's lines.












My XKE roadster is the absolute bottom of dumpsville for the T-jet. I had to trim the shoe hooks and file the chassis rivet heads. Unfortunately it also clearly illustrates that even at the ragged edge you'll NEVER get waistline down on the Elva if ya cant get it down on the XKE. Unless you want to expose the chassis skirt, and thats just a no-no!












Never noticed the greazy thumbprint and dust on this dumped GT 40...LOL...Again, right at the limit, and the upper door sill of the GT-40 is not even close to where you're going to need to be to get the McClaren right. Unlike the GT-40 which is a coupe the Elva is a Spyder. The upper deck work is all WELL below grade as it nestles down in between the four fender pods.

The T-jet chassis will never work. Hmmmmmmmmm....perhaps some other chassis might fit?


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## plymouth71 (Dec 14, 2009)

Scratch build with can motor???


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## Ralphthe3rd (Feb 24, 2011)

Yeah Bill, I think the Elva is a Hopeless cause. 
But, your Ferrari , XKE, and GT40 look GREAT ! :thumbsup:
But unfortunately, some sow's ears will just have to REMAIN Sow's ears


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## pshoe64 (Jun 10, 2008)

Thinking along the lines of Plymouth71's can motor idea, how bout a lower profile chassis, like an original G+ or Super Magnatraction? I went that route with the C&R Lotus 30/40 resin cast. I still have room in the front to drop it some more, or raise taller tires in the front wheel wells. So the top of the front wheel arch could come up a bit more. Maybe a McLaren Elva could be massaged into an inline chassis in order to get it lower/more scale/proportional? Now I need to look for a donor McLaren, you guys got me thinking too much (which is a good thing!).

-Paul
Here's the C&R Lotus


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

*Breathing room!*

Cool Paul! Your Lotus serves to inspire me with some hope.

Naturally the inline platform will immediately swing things in our favor. The coachwork will have to puff out towards 1/64 ish like the Ferossa. 

Notably we saw the bloated "forced designs" go away when the stylists got a reality check and the scale was increased. Length, height, and width came into proportion again and the severely compromised fun house mirror stylings became history. For me it was what gave the AFX's such great appeal from a styling perspective.

Naturally Dan is up inside my head. I'll select a motor that will allow the deck to drop in low and roll off down the doors. So a vertical compression stem to stern (the tricky part). Stretch the nose a bit. Let the fenders hang out a bit wider. (not so hard) Reductions are harder than additions.

In the end it's all geometry and proportion. Rise over run. The original designers fixed the run to keep the scale close and then had to bloat the rise in order to wrap it around a brick. (the T-jet chassis)


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## plymouth71 (Dec 14, 2009)

Bill Hall said:


> Naturally Dan is up inside my head.


And just to show those pretentious collectors.... Do it in Blue !  Lighted....


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## Ralphthe3rd (Feb 24, 2011)

Hey Paul, your Lotus looks pretty cool :thumbsup: But, I agree with you, it could stand taller front tires and a larger wheel well radius to accompany the tires, and then drop that puppy down a little more, if possible?


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