# Painting frustration...



## Flatlander54 (Feb 24, 2010)

Well, I got some paint for the Jupiter 2 today. None of the Hobby Shops in my area have the Flat Sand and Armour Sand in rattle cans, and I dont have an airbrush...so I got the Model Master 1 1/2 oz. bottles. I figured...Ok, just thin the paint a little and take your time to keep from having brush strokes in the paint. Yeah right...lol! I started with one side of a support beam and after stripping it 5 times I finally got halfway decent results, but it still has brush strokes in the paint. 
Ok so here comes the really amateur level question...would Primer help with this problem when using brush on paint?


----------



## machgo (Feb 10, 2010)

I think to avoid brush strokes, the paint has to flow a little, so it can even itself out. Brush strokes are really just high and low spots in the surface of the paint "pool."

Primer, I would think, would "grab" the paint, not letting it flow. That's really just a guess/theory.

Short answer--try it out on some scrap.

Long answer--get yourself an airbrush. Even a cheap set-up will give you results you like. If you are familiar with Harbor Freight tools, they have an airbrush set that's inexpensive. The quality isn't the highest, but should be OK for basic work. And they always have sales and coupons out there.

You will not be disappointed using an airbrush!


----------



## Dracula (Jun 5, 2005)

machgo said:


> I think to avoid brush strokes, the paint has to flow a little, so it can even itself out. Brush strokes are really just high and low spots in the surface of the paint "pool."
> 
> Primer, I would think, would "grab" the paint, not letting it flow. That's really just a guess/theory.
> 
> ...


----------



## Model Man (Oct 1, 2007)

You can get a solid quality dual action airbrush off ebay for as little as $25 shipped. I chose a $40 option and love it! However, the side costs are a matching hose ($10), compressor ($70+), regulator and moisture trap ($20). You could put a solid setup together for well under $200 shipped. 

While this seems like a huge chunk of change (it is), the gear will last you many years if you treat it right. Look at the cost this way: If you airbrush 10 kits in one year, then a $200 setup is $20 overhead each. 20 kits over 2 years it's $10 a kit. The cost works great when viewed in this way. 

Most importantly, the quality of your models will boost by many factors!


----------



## Paulbo (Sep 16, 2004)

machgo said:


> If you are familiar with Harbor Freight tools, they have an airbrush set that's inexpensive. The quality isn't the highest, but should be OK for basic work. And they always have sales and coupons out there.


My wife picked up one of their $19 dual action airbrushes to use for cake decorating. It works quite well and Harbor Freight has compressors and such on the cheap. (Or even cheaper, you can get an air tank there and fill it up for a couple of bucks at the gas station.)


----------



## bizzarobrian (Oct 4, 2009)

Flatlander54 said:


> Well, I got some paint for the Jupiter 2 today. None of the Hobby Shops in my area have the Flat Sand and Armour Sand in rattle cans, and I dont have an airbrush...so I got the Model Master 1 1/2 oz. bottles. I figured...Ok, just thin the paint a little and take your time to keep from having brush strokes in the paint. Yeah right...lol! I started with one side of a support beam and after stripping it 5 times I finally got halfway decent results, but it still has brush strokes in the paint.
> Ok so here comes the really amateur level question...would Primer help with this problem when using brush on paint?


The key to brush painting is to work fast because the second you apply it,it begins to dry.That sucks you could find those colours in a spray.


----------



## Flatlander54 (Feb 24, 2010)

Definately gonna have to go with rattle cans for now and an airbrush later on. This whole evening has been paint, strip, paint strip...I really thought I could get decent results with a little patience, but its just not happening. 

Thanks for the heads up about Harbor Frieght guys.


----------



## Flatlander54 (Feb 24, 2010)

bizzarobrian said:


> The key to brush painting is to work fast because the second you apply it,it begins to dry.That sucks you could find those colours in a spray.



Yep...learned that real quick...but with the flat paints they just dry too quick to avoid the brushstrokes.


----------



## Seaview (Feb 18, 2004)

Ask the owner or manager of your local hobby shop to special order spray cans for you. Mine does, as long as I get 2 of them.
And while at it, get a can of Tamiya "mica Silver" for the hull; it's BEAUTIFUL!


----------



## Magesblood (May 12, 2008)

I like the way Acryl brushes on. Sure it takes a few coats but it's nearly brush-stroke free. The gloss coats might give you a headache but the flats and semi-gloss are nice and forgiving.


----------



## Flatlander54 (Feb 24, 2010)

Exactly what I should have done today when I picked up the bottle paints, Seaview. I will give him a call Monday and have him order the rattle cans I need. I can use the bottled paint for touch-ups if needed.


----------



## xsavoie (Jun 29, 1999)

I do believe that in the old days paint used to take more time to cure,therefore they would remain liquid for a longer time on the kit's surface.Ths means that the fast curing started after a little while.The stage between full liquid to gripping paste was delayed.This is why brush painting was more applicable.But again,I think that most paint was mostly available in gloss only I believe.Of course,we always picture in our minds the good old days as perhaps being better than they really were.But it would be interesting to find out if some manufacturer would be willing to manufacture on an experimental basis only at first,a small batch of slower curing paints in both gloss and flat and let a few modelers try it out and report back to them.This would settle this question once and for all.I have heard of paint retardants which slows the curing speed down,but after experimenting with the Gunze Sanyo one I believe,it left the gloss paint soft and prone to damage when something made contact with the supposed cured paint.Plus it had limited effects in slowing the curing down.While on the other hand,slower curing paint should fully cure within a full day or less,depending if it's glossy or flat into a hard shell so to speak.Even slow curing paints should cure faster with a little thinner mixed with them during brush painting.A paint accelerator could be sold seperately and added to the paint to be used in the proportions we want in order to make that same paint cure faster.A proportion guide to be used would be indicated on the accelerator bottle,of course.This type of paint could be popular if it would work as well as I think it would,of course.I suggested this to Testors a few years ago,but they didn't do anything about it.Paint manufacturers still think that model kit building is for kids only that want fast results with so so paint job quality is the way to go.Not a very professional attitude if you ask me.We would also need a slower curing glue for big model pieces being assembled together.More time to position the pieces and better adhesion power this way.


----------



## TAY666 (Jan 8, 2000)

First, yes, primer will help.
Yes, it will 'grip' the paint, but this works to your advantage.
Right now, you are pushing the paint around on bare plastic. This leads to bare spots and thick spots.
Primer will help the paint 'stick' so you can actually get better coverage faster.

Second, not sure what MM are, but your best bet for smooth painting over large areas with a brush are enamels. Acrylics dry way too fast to self-level. Enamels take longer to cure, so they will level out. So if you can get a good coat on, it will smooth itself out a little before it sets up.


----------



## Flatlander54 (Feb 24, 2010)

Thinning actually made it worse, dried faster. Primer didnt help the paint lay down any better or quicker either. Gave up on it until I can get some rattle cans. Thanks to everyone for the opinions and help.


----------



## bert model maker (Feb 19, 2002)

Try Model master modern desert sand 1963/ FS33722 i used it on my polar lights jupiter 2 several years ago and it is a perfect color, try radom tan as well. i used that for the walls .


----------



## Flatlander54 (Feb 24, 2010)

Thanks bert, I will keep those in mind. :thumbsup:


----------



## Flatlander54 (Feb 24, 2010)

Ive decided to purchase an airbrush and compressor, just need to figure out which one I want, so far Im thinking along the lines of a Paasche VSR90#1.
I figure if Im going to get one I may as well get a decent one with a little versatility to it. 
If anyone has any other suggestions for a beginning airbrush please let me know. I would prefer to go with a dual-action gravity feed model. Thanks for any help guys.


----------



## Model Man (Oct 1, 2007)

This is where I got mine a few weeks ago. I'm quite happy. $38 shipped for a dual action. It'sa side fee and I should have gotten a center gravity feed, but for $38, I'm not complaining.

http://stores.ebay.com/tcpglobalautobodydepot


----------



## modelgeek (Jul 14, 2005)

What kind of brush are you using? I painted my Green Goblin with Model Masters it went on awesome..Jeff


----------



## machgo (Feb 10, 2010)

I have a couple double actions and a single action as well. I do prefer the double action.

Paasche is a good product. I have one of theirs, double action. Personally, I don't care for gravity feed. I only have siphon types and they've worked well for me. But that's just me.

I would recommend getting a tank, down the road. With a line dryer and a pressure regulator. Of course you could get a compressor that comes with a tank, and pressure regulator, and possibly a drier too.

Good idea to start out with something more upscale--you can grow into it, it will continue to serve you well after your skills progress, and it's not a piece of junk that will fail right away. Just my $.02.

Airbrushing is really neat. You will enjoy it!


----------



## Flatlander54 (Feb 24, 2010)

modelgeek said:


> What kind of brush are you using? I painted my Green Goblin with Model Masters it went on awesome..Jeff


 I dont remember the brand name of them, but they are quality brushes.


----------



## Flatlander54 (Feb 24, 2010)

Model Man said:


> This is where I got mine a few weeks ago. I'm quite happy. $38 shipped for a dual action. It'sa side fee and I should have gotten a center gravity feed, but for $38, I'm not complaining.
> 
> http://stores.ebay.com/tcpglobalautobodydepot


Thanks Model Man, I will keep this one in mind.


----------



## Dr. Brad (Oct 5, 1999)

Just do not buy an Aztek airbrush! I've had several replaced, and I don't like the fact that I can't take them apart to clean them. I finally got a Badger Spirit which I quite like!


----------



## Flatlander54 (Feb 24, 2010)

Yeah, I have read and heard also that the Aztek isnt that good. Im gonna do a little more research on it before I buy one. Paasche airbrushes are readily available in the local shops around here as well as parts for them, but Model Man has me curious about the ones on Ebay as well. 
I would like to just go for the gold and get one of the Badger Sotar 20/20's and know Im covered for everything...but thats alot of bux to shell out for an airbrush.


----------



## Flatlander54 (Feb 24, 2010)

I think this is the combo I will go with, G23 Master Airbrush with TC-20T Compressor/Tank. Looks like a nice set-up and I found some reviews on a couple airbrush forums saying the Master airbrushes are very good and dependable airbrushes.

$189.98 for the combo.

http://www.tcpglobal.com/airbrushdepot/abdkitg23.aspx


----------



## Dave in RI (Jun 28, 2009)

All I can add is Practice, Practice, Practice. Junk models or even plastic milk jugs are great to practice on. For me, the trickiest part is getting the right paint consistancy along with the proper air pressure. This is especially true when painting fine lines. And keep the nozzle clean!


----------



## skinnyonce (Dec 17, 2009)

Dave in RI said:


> All I can add is Practice, Practice, Practice. Junk models or even plastic milk jugs are great to practice on. For me, the trickiest part is getting the right paint consistancy along with the proper air pressure. This is especially true when painting fine lines. And keep the nozzle clean!


you-tubed, airbrushing and found one guy who said to buy coloring books to practice on, as far as staying in the lines,, skim milk for consistancy,, air pressure sounds like practice and taking notes to remember what setings till you get perfected,,


----------



## skinnyonce (Dec 17, 2009)

Dave in RI said:


> All I can add is Practice, Practice, Practice. Junk models or even plastic milk jugs are great to practice on. For me, the trickiest part is getting the right paint consistancy along with the proper air pressure. This is especially true when painting fine lines. And keep the nozzle clean!


you-tubed, airbrushing and found one guy who said to buy coloring books to practice on, as far as staying in the lines,, skim milk for consistancy,, air pressure sounds like practice and taking notes to remember what setings till you get perfected,,

good luck, I'll need it


----------



## Flatlander54 (Feb 24, 2010)

Well I took the plunge today and ordered the airbrush and compressor/tank combo from the tpcglobal.com link that Model Man graciously provided. I will let you all know what I think of it when I get it and start playing around with it. I read some reviews on a couple different airbrush forums and all of them had nothing but good to say about the Master airbrushes, so I figured that would be a good starter set.


----------



## skinnyonce (Dec 17, 2009)

Flatlander54 said:


> Well I took the plunge today and ordered the airbrush and compressor/tank combo from the tpcglobal.com link that Model Man graciously provided. I will let you all know what I think of it when I get it and start playing around with it. I read some reviews on a couple different airbrush forums and all of them had nothing but good to say about the Master airbrushes, so I figured that would be a good starter set.


who knows, your little dude's might make some money with it, ( is it pimping or punking the ride) skate boards and such for the other kids at school LOL!!


----------



## Flatlander54 (Feb 24, 2010)

Now theres an idea! :thumbsup:


----------



## Flatlander54 (Feb 24, 2010)

Well I got the airbrush and compressor/tank today and I really like this setup.
Ive been playing around with it this evening and Im impressed! Already learning from experimenting with different psi settings and paint thickness'.
Im not real airbrush savvy since Im a beginner, but I cant imagine a better setup for the beginner for the money. I was able to paint lines ranging from 1/16" and up, very encouraging just starting out. I used some testors Acryl thinned with water to experiment with and had no problems with clogging or the tip drying up. 
If anyone has been thinking of taking the airbrush plunge heres the link to where I got it. http://www.tcpglobal.com/airbrushdepot/abdkitg23.aspx
Thanks again to Model Man for the original post to the link.


----------



## teslabe (Oct 20, 2007)

Flatlander54 said:


> Well I got the airbrush and compressor/tank today and I really like this setup.
> Ive been playing around with it this evening and Im impressed! Already learning from experimenting with different psi settings and paint thickness'.
> Im not real airbrush savvy since Im a beginner, but I cant imagine a better setup for the beginner for the money. I was able to paint lines ranging from 1/16" and up, very encouraging just starting out. I used some testors Acryl thinned with water to experiment with and had no problems with clogging or the tip drying up.
> If anyone has been thinking of taking the airbrush plunge heres the link to where I got it. http://www.tcpglobal.com/airbrushdepot/abdkitg23.aspx
> Thanks again to Model Man for the original post to the link.


What system?


----------



## Flatlander54 (Feb 24, 2010)

G23 Master Airbrush with the TC-20T compressor/tank. The G23 is a dual acton gravity feed brush. The compressor comes with hose and water trap air filter.


----------



## teslabe (Oct 20, 2007)

Flatlander54 said:


> G23 Master Airbrush with the TC-20T compressor/tank. The G23 is a dual acton gravity feed brush. The compressor comes with hose and water trap air filter.


Thank you Flatlander......:wave:, That's the one that made the most sense,
great choices.....:thumbsup:


----------



## Flatlander54 (Feb 24, 2010)

Welcome!


----------



## Tim Nolan (Jul 9, 2008)

I'm glad you got an airbrush! I have been airbrushing (or at least hacking at it!) for almost 40 years, and to me, it's the only way to go! I have to admit, since I started doing some sci-fi kits and such, I've used more rattle cans than I have in 20 years, for flat finishes, I really like the Tamiya spray paints and some of the Model Master stuff too. Of course, it all gets enhanced with the airbrush! Good luck, and practice-practice-practice!


----------



## Flatlander54 (Feb 24, 2010)

Tim, awesome job on that Star Destroyer. Im looking foward to learning more skill with the airbrushing, I agree its the way to go and makes things so much easier.


----------



## Chinxy (May 23, 2003)

Flatlander - many years ago (like 10) I used brushes but now I airbrush. My first airbrush was the Aztek and I hated it. Didn't get good results, but then in 2004 I got the Iwata Eclipse CS and it's GREAT! Flat even layers. No brush strokes. And the kits look great. You really should try an airbrush. Are you affraid of a airbrush. Most people are at first and I was. But I had a very good friend teach me. I even took Dave Fishers class on airbrushing. Tom Grossman tought me ( the good friend) and sold me the Iwata. You should go to your local IPMS club and ask. I teach airbrushing at my club. Believe me - try it and I bet you would love it. Plus - after striping all those times on a kit should make you consider an airbrush. Look on ebay - their really not that bad! This was what I did last night for an hour. I Love my Iwata and I have a lot of fun with it. And that's the way it should be!



Happy Aurora Trails!
Chinxy!:dude:


----------



## Chinxy (May 23, 2003)

Flatlander - you actually used water for thinning? Just read the other posts. Hey - Congrates on you new airbrush! I know you'll love it. Here's a tip for you that I show when I teach airbrushing at my IPMS. Try using rubbing alcohol 70% with your achrylic paint in a glass jar. Pick up the glass jars at Bed and Bath for .99c and mix it to where is flows through the airbrush. Almost like milk. Look on line cause Badger sales a hand held paint mixer for $5. Then practice making lines on paper towls. Do you have a airbrush both? I built mine years ago. Look into getting one or making one if you can. And wear a breather mask. I get headaches when I don't. So on the paper towls draws curvy lines and then practice with your airbrush. Then when airbrushing a kit paint a small area and then use a hairdryer on it to dry it for about 5 seconds or so. It works great! No lines. That's what I teach (Tom taught me) and also there are lots of airbrush lessons on YouTube. Just goole it. And remember - Have FUN! I bet your kits improve 50% or more!:thumbsup:

Chinxy!:dude:


----------



## Flatlander54 (Feb 24, 2010)

Chinxy...yes I used water to thin the Acryls...seem to work well although it took a few layers to get a good coat. I will try the 70% alcohol this evening if I get a chance. I figured water would work just fine since thats what I used to clean the Acryl from the brushes? 
Thanks for the tips guys, its very much appreciated!


----------



## Trekkriffic (Mar 20, 2007)

Hey Chinxy,

That detail in the hangar bay of your Leif Ericson is fantastic ! Is that all scratched ?

Steve


----------



## Bruce Bishop (Jan 17, 1999)

I don't think I will ever bother with an airbrush, although I did want to, many years ago. By now I have nowhere to put it or use it. 

But the main reason is that I cannot stand the thought of _30 seconds_ of painting requiring _30 minutes of cleaning_ the airbrush between different colors, then cleaning it again after I am done, as well. 

The time to clean an airbrush after use is what really puts me off. I'd rather be doing anything else rather than spending the inordinate amount of time needed to clean one.


----------



## skinnyonce (Dec 17, 2009)

Bruce Bishop said:


> I don't think I will ever bother with an airbrush, although I did want to, many years ago. By now I have nowhere to put it or use it.
> 
> But the main reason is that I cannot stand the thought of _30 seconds_ of painting requiring _30 minutes of cleaning_ the airbrush between different colors, then cleaning it again after I am done, as well.
> 
> The time to clean an airbrush after use is what really puts me off. I'd rather be doing anything else rather than spending the inordinate amount of time needed to clean one.


From what i've read there easy to clean between colors and only need taken apart now and then for a GOOD CLEANING.. 
I just bought a dbl action gun and took it apart for the first time last night and I'll admit putting back together the first time was a bear, but now I know how to do it the next time.. and will look forward to cleaning the brush at the end of a beautiful spray session,, once I get this spray booth thing figured out... cant wait to spray something..

skinny.................


----------



## hedorah59 (Nov 24, 2008)

Great looking star ship, Tim!


----------



## Chinxy (May 23, 2003)

But the main reason is that I cannot stand the thought of 30 seconds of painting requiring 30 minutes of cleaning the airbrush between different colors, then cleaning it again after I am done, as well. 



Bruce, I don't mean any insult but why does it take you 30 minutes of cleaning? It takes me 30 seconds with my Iwata to change colors. I just shot brake fluid through it and a qutip to wip. That's it. My Iwata is the best! And the real cool thing about my Iwata is that it doesn't take much to clean it good. It only takes a minute to take apart. Wip it down with acitone or I spray it with brake fluid and take a minute to put it back together. That's all it takes. No problems. I'm looking at 5 minutes to clean total. I change colors all the time. Did it last night and it was one quike spray of brake fluid and then ready to go! Sometimes I get in a hurry like last night when the wife calls me and I forget or just don't take the time to clean the airbrush. No problem. I'll go back the next night and use acitone to clean it. It really cleans easy.  I've had this airbrush since 2004 and it's never failed me yet!

And how long does it take to clean your brushes? Now that's where I'm really VERY BAD!:drunk: 

Chinxy!:dude:


----------



## skinnyonce (Dec 17, 2009)

Chinxy said:


> Bruce, I don't mean any insult but why does it take you 30 minutes of cleaning? It takes me 30 seconds with my Iwata to change colors. I just shot brake fluid through it and a qutip to wip. That's it. My Iwata is the best! And the real cool thing about my Iwata is that it doesn't take much to clean it good. It only takes a minute to take apart. Wip it down with acitone or I spray it with brake fluid and take a minute to put it back together. That's all it takes. No problems. I'm looking at 5 minutes to clean total. I change colors all the time.
> 
> Hey!
> does that work on all paints or certain kinds, I like the idea but how not to ruin the next color paint, brake fluid and paint dont get along. dont want to ruin paint job with brake fluid,, sounds good though.......
> ...


----------



## Chinxy (May 23, 2003)

skinny - I use liquitex acrylics. Never had any problems with the brake fluid. It cleans it out nice and fast. The can has a long straw that fits real nice in the airbrush. And fit very easy in the head of the airbrush when I need to take it apart.

Chinxy!:dude:


----------



## Tim Nolan (Jul 9, 2008)

I blow lacquer thinner thru my guns for oil based stuff and I use specific cleaners when I use the water base stuff like Autoaire. I do have seperate airbrushes for the two different media's. I tear my guns down about every 10 uses and soak them really well if there is any residue remaining in the body or tips. I saw an art professors guns and bottles one time years ago, you couldn't even find the gun body for the accumulation of paint! He admitted he had NEVER cleaned them and maybe had one of his teachers aids clean them up a bit maybe once a year! He even left paint in the airbursh bottles and put a little piece of tin foil over the tips to seal them! LOL! I couldn't live like that!!!!


----------



## Bruce Bishop (Jan 17, 1999)

I was just exaggerating for effect with my comment about 30 seconds of painting and 30 minutes of cleaning. 


I had a cheap airbrush I planned to use for models once (that long time ago I mentioned) and used it to touch up some paint on my car. By the time I got it out, got paint to come out, and cleaned it afterwards, I think the total time involved was about 30 minutes to cover a 2 inch by 1 inch surface area.

Maybe because it was actual automotive paint instead of acrylics, but whatever the reason, between thinning, spraying, thinning some more, spraying, thinning some more, and spraying, and then spraying just the thinner through at the end to clean it out, I was pretty fed up with the whole process. By the time I got it to actually paint I was so irritated I never wanted to touch one again, although I did go ahead and clean it anyway after I was done. And by then the paint had dried up somewhere inside and it took another interminable length of time before it blew out clear thinner fluid.

Plus, I understand that very fine details still have to be painted by hand with a fine brush, so I really don't want to bother. Between cans and brushes I get the results I am happy with, so for now I don't think I will try one out again.

I think airbrushes are great, based on results I have seen others get, but they just aren't for me.


----------

