# R2 TOS Enterprise grid lines



## santee (Nov 15, 2012)

Hey guys,

I'd like to apologize.

I've been one of those that has been apposed to the grid lines from the very beginning. I just received my model and to be honest I'll bow out and say R2 has come to a nice compromise. 

When it's actually in your hands and see it in person, well I can live with them. :thumbsup:

Thanks guys!


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## Rahn (Jun 2, 2009)

Where I found the lines were indeed better than I had expected, I still want to fill them.

I've been waiting to see how a few of the pro's approach this so I can get some tips. My last model was over 20 years ago (89 Batmobile). Back then, I was using green putty cut with Testors liquid cement. I would like to know what's best available today that will last over the years.

So, c'mon guys, fill those grids.


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## FyreTigger (May 31, 2005)

Years ago I painted an accent wall in my living room a deep blue-gray. The wall has an unlit alcove in it. I didn't want the alcove to turn into a complete cave, so I painted it a significantly lighter tone of the same color. I expected it to apear lighter in the end, but unless you walk right up to a seam, in any light, it looks like it is all one color. When I'm complimented on my accidental perfect result, I sagely smile and say "Thank you."

So, imagine shooting the grid lines with stark white, masking them, then painting the saucer as normal. The appearance of the shadows should be markedly reduced. Running a coarse (not sharp, stubby rounded end), hard pencil across the top of the grid line trough might add the "fuzziness" seen in the original series.


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## SteveR (Aug 7, 2005)

Rahn said:


> I've been waiting to see how a few of the pro's approach this so I can get some tips.


This thread may be useful: http://www.hobbytalk.com/bbs1/showthread.php?t=379718


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## Warped9 (Sep 12, 2003)

I, too, find the lines less obtrusive than they appeared in some photos. I'm thinking a light sanding and then a primer and then painting should make them seem even fainter. I think the lines seem more apparent on the underside of the saucer rather than then upper side.

I think I can live with them that way, and I'm not crazy about trying to fill and sand all that line work either.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

Buy some Mr. Surfacer 500 in a bottle and spray can.

Based on the images I've seen from dozens of people who have posted pictures you may not even need to do more then spray a coat of Mr. Surfacer from a can.

If not you can brush on the bottle Mr. Surfacer 500 and then spray again.

If you truly want to fill the lines because you want a near perfect production version,
I'm assuming you will be drawing them back with a mechanical pencil before sealing the paint job.

In that case I would suggest NOT making the lines disappear completely.


Perhaps you are not among them,

but I expect that a lot of people are going to fill the seams completely and then later try to redraw them for no other reason then to say they did it.

I think many who fill the lines completely are going to find that drawing perfect circles and rays across a complexly contoured surface is not as easy as they thought. 


I would try using the Mr. Surfacer 500 in bottle and spray can and not to the point where the lines completely disappear.

When you later go over the grooves with a mechanical pencil and then spray the overcoat you probably won't even notice that there is any engraving.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

Also, it just occurred to me that you can probably find a properly colored charcoal, or one of those colored fine powders that Smooth-On.com sells for tinting resin, turn it into a powder and work that into the grooves right after the final paint job and right before the sealing coat.

Then VERY carefully and VERY thoroughly wipe off any excess from outside the grooves and then seal it. 

You would have make sure to use enough sealant to make sure the charcoal or powder is thoroughly saturated and bonded to the model.


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## Trekkriffic (Mar 20, 2007)

I'm probably one of those who's going to fill the lines in and redraw them with a pencil. Before I fill them in though I'll dry fit the upper and lower saucers together and run a piece of Tamiya masking tape around the top of the rim. Then I'll take a permanent fine tipped marker and make tick marks on the tape where the grid lines terminate so once I'm done filling and sanding and have glued trhe top to the bottom saucer I can reapply the tape and use it as a guide for drawing the gridlines. I'll do the same thing around the perimeter of C deck with tape and tick marks. As far as drawing the concentric circles I'll take some measurements beforehand so I know where to set the compass; I'll probably have to make some sort of collar with a hole in the center to fit over the top of A deck for the needle to fit into. I'll know more about how feasible this all is when I get my kit which is out for delivery to me today!


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## Rahn (Jun 2, 2009)

I had though I could use the top and bottom domes from one of the colored trees that I'm not using. Put a divot or hole in the center of each for your compass, draw the circles, then insert your domes of choice when you're done. This is all theory. I have not tried it, yet.


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## Nektu (Aug 15, 2001)

okay, is it just me... but doesn't filling the damn grid lines to redraw them with a pencil seem a bit nutty? they are not that deep on the upper saucer, and if you use the Mr. Surface 500 the will be faint to gone, which is what the pencil was supposed to imply 46 years ago on the model... 
It's the 'art' of compromise Everyone is over thinking this part of the model! 
The drawn lines on over half the MR Enterprises looked terrible, and they were good craftsmen doing them. Use the grids that are there if you're going have grids!


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## SteveR (Aug 7, 2005)

Nektu said:


> okay, is it just me... but doesn't filling the damn grid lines to redraw them with a pencil seem a bit nutty?


But in a fun kinda way! :thumbsup:

I'm going to try a pre-shading method, similar to Chuck's suggestions: fill the lines with blackish material (TBD) and get them as close to flush as possible, then paint the grey. It's the best of both worlds: use the existing grids, but get flushness. We'll see what happens!


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## Warped9 (Sep 12, 2003)

If I fill the lines in I'm sure as hell not going to try drawing them on afterward. Seems pointless to me. No, I'll go with the primer and bit of sanding and leave them be as is.


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## SUNGOD (Jan 20, 2006)

Nektu said:


> okay, is it just me... but doesn't filling the damn grid lines to redraw them with a pencil seem a bit nutty? they are not that deep on the upper saucer, and if you use the Mr. Surface 500 the will be faint to gone, which is what the pencil was supposed to imply 46 years ago on the model...
> It's the 'art' of compromise Everyone is over thinking this part of the model!
> The drawn lines on over half the MR Enterprises looked terrible, and they were good craftsmen doing them. Use the grids that are there if you're going have grids!







It's nice to see most people either like or don't mind the lines but I have to agree there. Why anyone would want to fill in the lines and then draw them on again in pencil does seem a bit nutty.

I'm one of those people that prefers a model of what I see on screen to an exact replica of the studio model (complete with all the crudely done bits) and if the Enterprise was real.......it wouldn't have drawn on panel lines.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

Rahn said:


> I had though I could use the top and bottom domes from one of the colored trees that I'm not using. Put a divot or hole in the center of each for your compass, draw the circles, then insert your domes of choice when you're done. This is all theory. I have not tried it, yet.


Seems like it would work. 

In theory . . .

But by filling the engraved lines with some dark material of the right shade and then sealing them you would avoid all of that. . .


Also, I feel it's important to point out that although there may be a few issues with the hatch lines near the saucer grid engravings

it seems that the concentric circles and rays were positioned *precisely* right and the engravings *extremely thin*.

Close enough won't get it.

If you don't get the lines you draw on exactly right the first time and everywhere the intersect you're going to screw the pooch.

Also, I use mechanical pencils all the time, even the best of them are not going to give you the exact same thickness and darkness because the human hand is not a machine.

Even using compasses and flexible straight line drawing edges you are going to vary the amount of pressure and angle of the pen to some degree.

All of that to cover try and precisely find and cover tiny lines that are already there at a consistent width and depth.

In theory it's possible, yes. 

But how likely is it that all of those factors will be executed properly by even the best of human hands?


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## Warped9 (Sep 12, 2003)

The only place I want to fill the lines are where they cross what look like hatches as well as the two triangles on the underside of the saucer.


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## Trekkriffic (Mar 20, 2007)

After getting my kit today I am reconsidering my penciled gridlines idea. The lines on the upper saucer are fine enough to leave as is. I'll be spraying on a coat or two of Tamiya grey surface primer anyway which will probably make them all but disappear. If I want them to be darker I may just go over them with black gel pen ink. It's water based so I can clean up any smudges easily with a moist q-tip before sealing with a clearcoat. Then I'll overspray them with the basecoat so they should be very subtle when I'm done.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Warped9 said:


> The only place I want to fill the lines are where they cross what look like hatches as well as the two triangles on the underside of the saucer.


Same here--also on the "L" shaped panels in front of the impulse engines.


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## Warped9 (Sep 12, 2003)

^^ Right, that's what I was thinking as well.


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## RossW (Jan 12, 2000)

Me too. I'm going to hit the two hull pieces with some Mr Surfacer first to try and bury the lines as much as possible without making them disappear altogether.


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## Hunch (Apr 6, 2003)

I bondo'd the heck out of the lines and...Viola! All gone.

:thumbsup:
:dude:


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## Warped9 (Sep 12, 2003)

There are such different ways to build this kit and choices to be made. This kit is supposed to represent the "real" starship as opposed to simply the filming miniature. To that end it leaves room for interpretation as to what should be included or left of the final model. It could be argued that even the pilot versions are incomplete as they were modified along the way.


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## SteveR (Aug 7, 2005)

Yes, we have a number of options: 
- leave the gridlines as is
- use them as a guide for pencilling
- fill them in part-way
- fill them in completely
- fill them in then pencil them in

R2 made the optimal choice here, giving us the most options.


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## Warped9 (Sep 12, 2003)

SteveR said:


> Yes, we have a number of options:
> - leave the gridlines as is
> - use them as a guide for pencilling
> - fill them in part-way
> ...


And there are other options besides the gridlines issue.


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## santee (Nov 15, 2012)

SteveR said:


> Yes, we have a number of options:
> - fill them in part-way


I'd like to see that. :drunk:


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## santee (Nov 15, 2012)

Rahn said:


> Where I found the lines were indeed better than I had expected, I still want to fill them.


I think they've achieved the best of both worlds. The lines are not too exaggerated yet they are easy enough to fill.

Like you, I'll be filling mine.


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## SteveR (Aug 7, 2005)

santee said:


> I'd like to see that. :drunk:


Not so odd ... a liquid might do the trick: Mr. Surfacer 1000, maybe ... or using a putty that shrinks: fill it flush, then let it shrink.


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## feek61 (Aug 26, 2006)

They were relatively easy to fill with red bondo putty. Is it just me or are the grid lines bigger on the bottom of the saucer? Anyway, my 2nd pilot version is now underway!! 

Here she is all sanded down:


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## wjplenge (Apr 14, 2011)

I always rather liked the grid lines, but seeing SG-99's build of the kit as the Constellation I may have fill them in and try one of my kits that way.


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## SteveR (Aug 7, 2005)

Can you mix black paint with bondo putty?


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## KUROK (Feb 2, 2004)

Chuck_P.R. said:


> But how likely is it that all of those factors will be executed properly by even the best of human hands?


If they could do it in '67 it can be done now!


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

KUROK said:


> If they could do it in '67 it can be done now!


You should consider that the gridlines were penciled on an 11 foot model back then.

But I am not denying that it is possible.

Just questioning the point of it all.




SUNGOD said:


> I'm one of those people that prefers a model of what I see on screen to an exact replica of the studio model . . . and if the Enterprise was real.......it wouldn't have drawn on panel lines.


Exactly!!!

I'd love to see the size of the pencil they used in the Starfleet shipyards to draw on those pencil lines! :freak:


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## Ductapeforever (Mar 6, 2008)

Yeah Well, ask a woman why she plucks out her eyebrows , then moments later DRAWS them back on with a pencil. Psssst......don't tell her I told you it makes them all look like circus sideshow freaks! (....and everyone marvels at why I'm not remarried.) LOL !


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

Ductapeforever said:


> Yeah Well, ask a woman why she plucks out her eyebrows , then moments later DRAWS them back on with a pencil. Psssst......don't tell her I told you it makes them all look like circus sideshow freaks! (....and everyone marvels at why I'm not remarried.) LOL !


They not only do that, but the really clueless ones draw the darn things way away from where their original eyebrows were.

As if they are going to fool anybody into thinking their eyebrows extend up and across half their forehead!

Hopefully though anybody penciling in gridlines they've just filled will be able to pull it off a little better then that.


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## Captain April (May 1, 2004)

Who knew Vampira was a fashion icon?


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Chuck_P.R. said:


> They not only do that, but the really clueless ones draw the darn things way away from where their original eyebrows were.
> 
> As if they are going to fool anybody into thinking their eyebrows extend up and across half their forehead!


As long as they look like hot Vulcan women when they do that, I don't mind.


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## John P (Sep 1, 1999)

Ya know, since I'm doing the 2nd pilot version, I WAS going to fill in the grid lines. Then I started wondering how the heck I was going to align the decals without them. Then I decided I was too lazy to do it anyway. So never mind. They're staying.

:lol:


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## Hunch (Apr 6, 2003)

John, A simple measurement will tell you where the decal goes if you should choose to get rid of the lines. 
To me, the lines are too much. If somehow they could have been made finer, thinner and half as deep, they may have been able to remain, but as is they just dont look right. If I put any penciled lines back on you will not be able to see them unless you are about an inch from the model and even then they would not be complete lines. Just the "ghosts" of where thye lines would be. Taping off the rust ring and getting that right should give the impression of panels of some sort. I think thats what the tv fx guys had in mind. Keep'em small and simple.
The bottom of the saucer may suffer the most from the engraved panel lines. It looks totaly wrong (to my eyes) and I would have never been able to live with it after paying for all the lights, PE and the big bad girl herself.
Some will choose to keep'em 'cause to them they dont look bad.
Some will go for the "half filled in" look. That is simple enough to do. Just fill the lines with bondo, sand, prime and you are done. Half filled lines. After the bondo shrinks you need to fill again, and again to get rid of them. I was still seeing them after the third sanding in some spots! I was determined to get rid of any indication of them and went the full nine yards!
Now I'm done. I've moved the three holes on the bottom of the saucer to they're correct designation and am awaiting final prime on the bottom saucer. It was a lot of work and certainly not for the faint of heart but the end result looks VERY pleasing!
Jim


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## KUROK (Feb 2, 2004)

feek61 said:


> Is it just me or are the grid lines bigger on the bottom of the saucer?


No, it's not just you...
The grid on the saucer bottom is deeper and wider, at least that's what I think I see.


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## SteveR (Aug 7, 2005)

I thought it was the optical illusion, where we can see the gridlines closer together near the center of the saucer bottom. Hmm ...


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## jgoldsack (Apr 26, 2004)

I plan to leave the lines on my model the way they are on the kit. I don't see a reason for me to fill them in and redraw them, because the only people other than me are people who would not know the difference anyway, and I don't care either way about grid lines.


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## Larva (Jun 8, 2005)

My only issue with the saucer grid is that there is no such similar artifact on the rest of the ship. I would be interested in very light gridline decals for the dorsal, secondary hull, and nacelles.


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## Warped9 (Sep 12, 2003)

Larva said:


> My only issue with the saucer grid is that there is no such similar artifact on the rest of the ship.


That was my issue as well. That and seeing so many builds with horribly exaggerated gridlines, likely following the terrible repaint job on the 11 footer.


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## Rahn (Jun 2, 2009)

Same here. I would have considered the engraved grid much more if there had also been lines on the other areas.
I know I could never scribe them, so my option is to fill the existing grid and then (should I choose) render all the lines in some other fashion.


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## woof359 (Apr 27, 2003)

grid lines dont bother me, except where they cross over the landing gear covers, need to fill in the lines


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## Prowler901 (Jun 27, 2005)

woof359 said:


> grid lines dont bother me, except where they cross over the landing gear covers, need to fill in the lines


Agreed. Those will be the only grid lines I'll be filling. It is just odd that the original design would have them in an area that obviously shouldn't have them (at least in my own opinion).


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## BolianAdmiral (Feb 24, 2009)

Nektu said:


> okay, is it just me... but doesn't filling the damn grid lines to redraw them with a pencil seem a bit nutty?


No more nutty than including them on the model when they never should have been there to begin with.


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## Warped9 (Sep 12, 2003)

^^ Except according to Gary Kerr that's how they were drawn on the 11 footer.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

BolianAdmiral said:


> No more nutty than including them on the model when they never should have been there to begin with.


^^^^^^

[Square Dance music playing in background . . . ]

_And back to the begining Doh See Doh ... 

Back to the begining here we go . . . _


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## Gary K (Aug 26, 2002)

Prowler901 said:


> Agreed. Those will be the only grid lines I'll be filling. It is just odd that they would leave those in an area that obviously shouldn't have them.


Okay, one more time: during the run of the original series the grid lines most assuredly DID cross the triangular landing gear covers, as well as the L-shaped hatches over the impulse engines, and the 1:350 model accurately reflects that. If you have a beef with that, then you need to address the guys who built & detailed the 11-footer. They obviously didn't know much about proper starship engineering.

Gary


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## Prowler901 (Jun 27, 2005)

Gary K said:


> Okay, one more time: during the run of the original series the grid lines most assuredly DID cross the triangular landing gear covers, as well as the L-shaped hatches over the impulse engines, and the 1:350 model accurately reflects that. If you have a beef with that, then you need to address the guys who built & detailed the 11-footer. They obviously didn't know much about proper starship engineering.
> 
> Gary


Sorry Gary. I must have missed where you mentioned that before.  I love the kit. You guys did a great job with it. It really exceeds any expectations I had. I really do appreciate the great care you put into the detail accuracy. So, I retract my previous inaccurate statement.  (original post will be edited.)

I will be filling the lines over the triangles just for my own satisfaction.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Prowler901 said:


> Sorry Gary. I must have missed where you mentioned that before.  I love the kit. You guys did a great job with it. It really exceeds any expectations I had. I really do appreciate the great care you put into the detail accuracy. So, I retract my previous inaccurate statement.  (original post will be edited.)
> 
> I will be filling the lines over the triangles just for my own satisfaction.


:thumbsup: As I will also be doing--along with smoothing the L-shaped hatches in front of the impulse engines. Doing so has more to do with individual perception of the "idealized" version of the ship vs. technical accuracy. There's quite a bit of flexibility there, IMHO.


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## Gary K (Aug 26, 2002)

Prowler901 said:


> Sorry Gary. I must have missed where you mentioned that before.  I love the kit. You guys did a great job with it. It really exceeds any expectations I had. I really do appreciate the great care you put into the detail accuracy. So, I retract my previous inaccurate statement.  (original post will be edited.)
> 
> I will be filling the lines over the triangles just for my own satisfaction.


Modifying a model to suit your own preferences is certainly a legitimate effort. After all, in the real world both civilian & naval vessels almost never maintain the exact same appearance over the years. They're constantly being overhauled, repainted, and upgraded. I suspect that Kirk would have taken the Enterprise through the starship wash at least once in a while, and sometime during the 5-year mission I'm pretty sure that somebody would have flipped a light switch in one of the outer rooms and thereby changed the pattern of lighted windows.

The PL kit simply reflects how the lines were applied to the 11-footer. Nobody has a clue as to how deflector grids would actually function, so there's no right or wrong way of doing it. The practice of routing grid lines around hatches & other external features on the hull began with ST-TMP, and you could always rationalize that your model represents a modification from the (unseen) 4th or 5th season of TOS. Btw, I have it on good authority that the grid lines on the TOS ship have snap connectors at the edges of hatches, and the grids are wired in parallel so they don't all go out when the hatch is opened. 

What ruffles my feathers is when a self-proclaimed "expert" (present company excluded) spouts "facts" that I know to be patently untrue and bashes PL for putting certain features on the kit. I've read way too many of those postings over the past year or two. So the short story is, feel free to modify the model to your heart's content. In fact, feel free to buy 5 or 6 (or more) of TOS E kits and modify them even more! 

Gary


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## Warped9 (Sep 12, 2003)

Prowler901 said:


> I will be filling the lines over the triangles just for my own satisfaction.


Me, too.



PerfesserCoffee said:


> ...along with smoothing the L-shaped hatches in front of the impulse engines..


Those, too.


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## Ductapeforever (Mar 6, 2008)

I'll be adding handlebars and training wheels to mine for that newby captain J.J. Abrams has put in charge !


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## Prowler901 (Jun 27, 2005)

Gary K said:


> What ruffles my feathers is when a self-proclaimed "expert" (present company excluded) spouts "facts" that I know to be patently untrue and bashes PL for putting certain features on the kit. I've read way too many of those postings over the past year or two. So the short story is, feel free to modify the model to your heart's content. In fact, feel free to buy 5 or 6 (or more) of TOS E kits and modify them even more!
> 
> Gary


Understood. I don't want to come off as a self-proclaimed 'expert'. I'm certainly not in any way, especially as I have not even seen the original in person. So please accept my apologies if that is how the comment sounded.

I hope to buy several more of these models to model other registries. Specifically the Yorktown. Much legendary Naval history with that ship name.


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## Chuck_P.R. (Jun 8, 2003)

Ductapeforever said:


> I'll be adding handlebars and training wheels to mine for that newby captain J.J. Abrams has put in charge !


Handlebars?

What kind of grips are you going to use?


Now I won't feel so silly when I stick Red, White & Blue streamers on the back of the warp pylons.


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## StarshipClass (Aug 13, 2003)

Gary K said:


> So the short story is, feel free to modify the model to your heart's content. In fact, feel free to buy 5 or 6 (or more) of TOS E kits and modify them even more!


I'm sure folks will. I hope to purchase at least one more, myself.

The R2 team was so exacting on this model that I'm just glad they stopped short of including the duct-taped wiring on the starboard nacelle strut and large hole on the port side of the engineering hull. I like what idealization was done in the creation of the model. Some of us are just going to idealize it a wee bit further. :thumbsup:


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## Maritain (Jan 16, 2008)

BolianAdmiral said:


> No more nutty than including them on the model when they never should have been there to begin with.



As a modeler who has drawn them in on 3 22 inch AMT Enterprises, I am so glad those grid lines are there! Just my 2 cents.


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## Zombie_61 (Apr 21, 2004)

Chuck_P.R. said:


> Handlebars?
> 
> What kind of grips are you going to use?
> 
> Now I won't feel so silly when I stick Red, White & Blue streamers on the back of the warp pylons.


Don't forget the playing cards in the Bussard Collector fan blades.


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## SUNGOD (Jan 20, 2006)

Chuck_P.R. said:


> You should consider that the gridlines were penciled on an 11 foot model back then.
> 
> But I am not denying that it is possible.
> 
> ...





Oh that would be one big mother of a pencil.


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## woof359 (Apr 27, 2003)

I removed the grid lines that passed thru the landing gear hatches, looks much better now (-:


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## Prowler901 (Jun 27, 2005)

Excellent. I'll be doing the same. I may also fill the lines that cross the L shaped panels above the Impulse decks.


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