# brass handling pan attempt #1



## joegri (Feb 13, 2008)

cuz i am kinda board. i thought i,d try my hand at a brass pan tjet style. first i had to get some burnt out chassis... thanx al pink for yer donation!! the only thing i had to go by is some photos on the riggen site. well i deflowered the donor of its electrics and started smoothing out the bottom to get it to 1 plane. i had read that the pans have terrable brakes so the pan was made a lil smaller than the types i,d seen in the pics.so cut,file n shape to fit done. i had some brush cups lookin for something to do so i got to work enlarging the original brush hole to fit in the new cups. i did solder the leads before i fit the cups in and i made a vein/channel to run the wire through,done now all i did was mix some epoxy glue and mated the brass pan to the chassis done. it,s in a moch-up state but i,m wanting to use some afx rims that will be painted white. and just for a glimps into the future as to what i want it to look like i just fitted the body... donated to the cause from... al pink! it was cracked across the front fender pretty good but with some epoxy it was saved. to make the body a lil more racey lookin i mixed some epox n added just a bit of acetone and painted that on the body what it does is smooth out all the detail and creates a smmoth surface... real racey right. at this time i,m dead in the water till i figure out how to connect the braids to the brass. sidejobjon has a way and i,m hoping maybe he or others can direct me in this next stage. thanx for checkin out the z car build and any and all ideas will be a big help!! anybody?


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## tjd241 (Jan 25, 2004)

*JoeG...*

.. yer a tinkerer's tinkerer. :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## sidejobjon (Jun 3, 2010)

*TCP pans*

Joe,
Look up Doug Morris, Or TCP pan chassis. On Harden creek web site. His look like jewlery he his the man. Send me email i will send pictures
Thanks John F


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## Boosted-Z71 (Nov 26, 2007)

Oh I like this a lot, good work Joe, That is going to be one fun t-jet, an AW arm, and magnets & that will be a screamer.

Doug's cars are Jewlery, I have talked with him several times, He also has a mailing list that he puts out about once every other month via e-mail. Nice guy and has some really cool cars.

Boosted


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## joegri (Feb 13, 2008)

*thanx for adding fellas*

yes nuther d i just luvs tinkerin i think it keeps me from gettin in trouble away from the house! thats why our slotcaves are so important to all of us!!sidejob i,ll be getting intouch with you sometime today thanx for the doug morris info i did just checkout hardin creek site.thinks i,ll drop mr morris a line too. and boosted i forgot that you had advanced the timing in the winning drag car. that will be in the future builds.i,ll be tapping you for the how to part. if i,m reading the info correctly seems ya gotta put some tape on the bottom pan and some heavy hot glue on the top to stop any shorting? i just hope the this will go around the trak. this first 1 will have tuffy mags and a stock arm but.. i do have the dash and some superII mags waiting and yes a few of the yellowjacket arms.as you guys can plainely see these aren,t pretty seems i have to find better skills and tools to make ,em really show quality. i,m still feeling my way around. to my surprise i cant believe how long it takes to get this going. seems i spend alot of time holding pieces up to the chassis and thinkin yes this works or no this wont work. but that is where the fun is for me! i may change my mind on the wheel selection maybe some brass jw,s front n rear.


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

If that's the whole pan you're gonna run,i'd split the pan at the front,just in front of the guide-pin,then you won't have to insulate/isolate it from the rails.
The pan can run right on the rails if there's no continuty between both rails
Looks good:thumbsup:


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## bobhch (Apr 22, 2007)

Hey Joe...keep holding pieces up to see if they work or not. 

This is very neat stuff!

Bob...I'm a stock class factory racer...zilla


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

Like Hornet, I'd electrically isolate the two halves of the plate by removing that bit of connective tissue. Yer basically running separate pontoons anyway.

By doing so you can wrap the braids around the chassis front in the conventional manner. By integrating an upper retainer plate with the guide pin screw, you can capture the braids against the chassis. One could also use a drop through technique for the braids via guide slits through the brass plates if ya dont like the wrap around idea. 

One way or another, the guide screw will make it easy to clamp things together. The main thing is to keep the pin/flag and the braids in good working proximty to one another so that you dont electrically disconnect in a hard slide. Generally not an issue, but it bears mentioning as it is a fundamental build concern.

It should be noted that some type of insular material be used on the brass plate, should you inadvertently bridge the rails together in a slide or wreck. Ideally the ONLY exposed conductor on the chassis bottom should be the braids; so ya dont let any smoke out. Based on most all the really lowboy cricket scrapen' examples of the era; it's pretty clear that "ship happens", and they took care to prevent it. 

I've seen all sorts of things, mylar tape, resin, paint, thin plastic....whatever your ride height affords.

Great build Joe! Cant wait to see what you come up with :thumbsup:


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Bill:Think of Dynamic brakes,what's the principle behind them:thumbsup:
In laymans terms Dynamic brakes are nothing more then shorted out rails,if you lay a bar of steel across your rails,you've got Dynamic brakes
Shorting out the rails won't let smoke out of the arm,might blow your track fuse if you pin the throttle.
But as long as you don't pin the throttle with the car sitting sideways across the rails,it shouldn't even blow your track fuse:thumbsup:


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

Well Rick,

Dynamic "Breaking" sounds like a Northern thing. :tongue:

Never said nutten' bout smoken' no armacatures. I cant keep the lil' bastages lit and I always burn my mustache.


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Ideally the ONLY exposed conductor on the chassis bottom should be the braids; so ya dont let any smoke out.

Hmm wonder who printed this then :wave:

Shorting out the rails will not hurt the armature,as electricity takes the path of least resistance,and unless you somehow manage to actually get the windings themselves onto the rails,the electrical path will be between the rails and what's shorting them out,electricity won't travel through the arm at all.
I'd run it first and see if it has any electrical issues before i started trying to isolate the pan from the car or rails,just saying
Rick


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## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

not again?


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## Boosted-Z71 (Nov 26, 2007)

I am not smart enough to participate in a conversation of this intelligence level regarding dynamic braking, I barely understand how the cars go much less on stopping them, but I sure do enjoy reading the posts, carry on.

Joe I will try to dig up some info on advancing the brush timing for you, I can tell you the GN, was too far for any extended running. I burnt one arm "testing / playing" As I recall, 5 full throttle runs back to back with some mid / low speed during the return loop on my track fried the first arm, it smoked for dang near a minute. 

Boosted


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

Hornet said:


> Ideally the ONLY exposed conductor on the chassis bottom should be the braids; so ya dont let any smoke out.
> 
> Hmm wonder who printed this then :wave:
> 
> ...


I never said it would hurt the armature..AND WHERE...ANYWHERE...DO I EVER USE THE WORD ARMATURE in what you've quoted, or my entire post...yer the one going on about armature dis and armature dat. :wave: 

Re-read my post in context, dont cherry pick it....then leave out the word armature....just like I did. :thumbsup:

Then you'll see we're both on the same side of the schematic and clearly talking about the same thing....you just dont think it matters and I'm willing to accept that it does.


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Not much to dynamic braking,the basic principle is a bar of steel layed across the rails,you put a variable control device inline with it,like a pot or rheostat to give you adjustability to the amount of electrical short you're applying to the motor.
Just clearing things up is all Al,no worries:thumbsup:


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Missed the post you just put up Bill.
Okay then,just what did you mean by "letting the smoke out".
You letting smoke outta the rails or something
Maybe i'm on a differant planet then you,but usually that means you've hurt the armature Bill,but then again,i'm a relative newbee,so maybe you should clear that up for me.
Bill i ain't gonna argue with you,but i think you better learn some of the common terms a little better if you're gonna use them
We all hate being corrected,but i was only trying to correct your mis-information Bill
Think i've had enough,but chew on that for awhile if you will 
Rick


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

*Wow*

Really?

It's been my observation that you can let the smoke out of anything that wont carry as much current as your putting into it. 

Hmmmmm....lessee here....

Did the smoke get let out of that 50 amp breaker when Gary accidentally went phase to phase with 208? Gee, I guess he crapped his pants fer nuthen.

Did the smoke not come out of that chunk of MC cable when April hooked the black wire to the pretty green one? 

Did the smoke come out of the loose element wire when the contactor in the booster heater closed?

Did the smoke come out of the main control board for the Ice cream machine for no apparent reason?

Did the smoke come out of every failed magenetic lighting ballast at our facility? 

What was that funny swirly stuff that was boiling out of that over loaded J-box?

Smells like....

....uh....

SMOKE!

....and there wasnt an armature in a single one of those circuits. Thankfully still I got paid for putting all the smoke back where it belongs even though it never happened. I've heard the term used for decades on nearly a daily basis....and there was never a slot car within miles.

Put that in yer terminolgy pipe and let the smoke out of it.

I'm waaaay dun here. :wave:


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## JordanZ870 (Nov 25, 2004)

nosmoke.exe


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

LMAO,you're sure scratching bottom,aren't you Bill.
If you asked the majority of guys here what they thought you meant by letting the smoke out,i bet armature is the first thing that comes to mind.

Give up,you fubar'd,and now you're trying to cover your rear.
Have a great day Bill,see you later.:thumbsup:
Rick


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## joegri (Feb 13, 2008)

*just pluggin along*

didnt have much time or energy to wrench on this pan but i did end up hookin up the braids to the pan. after lookin at some more pics and seeing what others did before me i opted for some tape against the pan then layed the braids in the wade of epoxy n let that dry. i see there has been a discussion bout splitting the pan to stop any shorting. i did,nt see 1 picture anywhere of a pan like that so, i,m going with this style first. if you notice i mentioned that this is the first attempt so i,ll be open to different ways in the future. as for smokin an armature i,m gonna use a not so good 1 at first just to see if it runs. besides they are hard to keep lit! my big brother did say " you cant put the smoke back in the wires" that i believe is true! now i have bigger fish to fry so this is going on hold for a few days. i have to replace the headgasket in my van !!! that should take quite a bit of time considering the subject. looks like i have to install some brushes and some mags n look for smoke!


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## tjd241 (Jan 25, 2004)

joegri said:


> ... my big brother did say " you cant put the smoke back in the wires"


I tend to agree with this too Joe. 






The resistor pack in the Heat/AC circuitry in my Heep Wrangler recently had the smoke let out of it. Poorly designed (or well designed *to fail* LOL) by Chrysler and not up to the task of handling the current applied to it (for very long). Didn't see it, but I smelled it ... then the selector switch stopped blowing air on all but high speed... and off to the shop she went to have somebody smarter than me put the smoke back in.

Good luck with the 1:1 install. That's a big job I couldn't dream of entertaining fixing myself. I salute you sir and please don't forget to keep us updated on this latest panfried HO recipe of yours ! !


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## CJ53 (Oct 30, 2007)

I've used the Smoke method to find shorts in wiring on semi trailers.. most of the upper light harness is hidden inside a vertical rail or a horizontal , depending on what type of trailer it is.
Had some the lights would flicker and blow the fuses or circuit breakers, We had to bypass the fuse box, and voila, let the smoke out and found the short. Fixed it, took less time than pulling all the wiring and looking for the bare wire. 
I use the Smoke out method. 

Learned it from Smoking the arms on my old tjets, afx's and later my Tyco's that I relentlessly run laps with. Once the smoke come out they were dead horses.
Don't burn your fingers!

CJ


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## slotking (May 27, 2008)

looks good!
you can iso the pan, or keep it solid as long as it sits up the way it does in the pic, you should have no issues.

not t-jets, but afx cars we used race here: http://ho-tips.net/showthread.php?tid=350

but we had to use stock/stock replacement shoes


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

LOL,don't worry the pan ain't gonna hurt your arm.
Do you run track fuses,the 1 piece pan could cause static with them if it touches both rails at once,that's the only reason you need to isolate anything:thumbsup:


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

*Now he gets it?*

Yeah Joe, you set yer controller down and run go get a fuse every time yer metal chassis clatters across the rails and lets the smoke out of the fuse or whatever the next weakest link upstream is should it not be fuse protected.

Ya see Joe, Rick thinks I'm stupid enough to imply that the armature is even invloved in the "rail/pan/braid" dead short scenario when it clearly isnt, nor was it ever even in the conversation....well until he ASSUMED so and put it there. If I meant armature, I would have said armature. Period! 

Please ignore the armature Joe. That was just Rick spoiling for a fight trying to put words in my mouth by trying to use some weird imaginary Canadian slotcar guy copyright on terminology that was actually coined well before the invention of slotcars. Given all the negative attention he's showering me with, I secretly think he's gonna ask me to the prom.

I may say yes, but first he'll have produce his proctologist's license, AND get his microscope outta my arse. He can then refocus it in the mirror and explain to you and the rest of the class why Tyco insulated ALL their metal panned chassis with some type of tough nonconductive coating? I'm DYING to hear his answer.

Ya see Joe it's not an absolute.... it never was ....simply a recommendation to hedge your bets based on my personal experience with brass chassis'd contraptions as well as the conventional wisdom the ancients. If yer nit picking with yer nose is pressed right up against the glass, one would certainly miss the subtle intent of my post. 

The whole idea is to get them brass hacks right down to the ragged edge of the rail, a fundamental CG concept that is clearly lost on the those recommending the hurdy gurdy retodd stance like yer grandma used to run. It's supposed to be skimming the darn rails and thats why you insulate in the first place. The secondary concern is a perpendicular to the rail spinout/accident where the rails might be bridged by the pan/braids and the trigger is still depressed if only for a second. Not because it's GONNA short, only because if its set up right it MAY short under the right set of circumstances. Why the hell would you advise a builder to not insulate against the possibility of a dead short?

Rick advises changing fuses, I advise simply re-slotting your car...duh


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## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

*two cents sense*

well, even on an armature, it is the wire that the smoke lets out of. LOL
see ya in the funny papers!

:wave:


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Man there's sure alot of rear covering going on.
Bill you yourself thought the arm would be hurt,till somebody set you straight:thumbsup:.
And you sure as heck had everybody else convinced of that too.
Not once in your post did you say anything about the track letting smoke out,you left it implied by the way you worded your post that the arm would be hurt,and that's reading your post from everybodies view,not just your scewed view of how you thought you said it:thumbsup:
Get somebody else to read your post,and give you their idea of what you meant.
I like how,the pan has to be isolated,but you're leaving the braids exposed,they must be non-conductive in your world too.
BTW: Love the Canuck comments,they seem to always come out,when you can't bamboozle you're way out of your fubar.
Have a good day Bill,and go do some reading on the electrical end of a slotcar and track:wave:


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## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

hornet, are YOU assuming to speak for everybody now? 

" ....And you sure as heck had everybody else convinced of that too ... you left it implied by the way you worded your post that the arm would be hurt,and that's reading your post from everybodies view ..... "

or have you been getting all those emails again from folks who will only tell YOU how they feel and not post their feelings here?

do NOT presume to speak for ME!

got it?

.


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## ajd350 (Sep 18, 2005)

Count me in with Alpink. As a 35+ year Ford tech, 'letting the smoke out' is a very familiar term to me. Anything that can produce smoke can have it 'let out'. Nothing I read in Bill's text pointed me in the direction of the armature. Since it was non-specific, I re-read it to see if it even hinted at that. No way. If anything, Bill made the error of assuming that more of us here would be more familiar with the 'letting the smoke out' term. 

The two of you are clearly knowledgeable and talented. A simple clarification would have sufficed. Dragging the rest of us into it as your backers is out of line and incorrect. Let the smoke clear and move on.


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## slotcarman12078 (Oct 3, 2008)

*G*ee, I don't recall Bill mentioning anything about an armature when he said "letting the smoke out". Even a simpleton like myself knew he was referring to something else. 

*M* y understanding is set transformer is a fairly low amp device, and even with those TYCO took precautions by protecting the underside of their cars from causing shorts by insulating the brass. Bump that set transformer up to a 5, 8 or 10 amp power source and something's gonna smoke with a spin out.

*C*orrect me if I'm wrong please. A dead short across the rails is going to make something smoke, whether it be the circuit breaker or the power supply. If the arm were vulnerable, then "brakes" wouldn't be much of an option, would it?


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## JordanZ870 (Nov 25, 2004)

nosmoke.exe


why doesn't this ever work!:tongue:


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## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

*moving on*



ajd350 said:


> Let the smoke clear and move on.



thank you


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## sidejobjon (Jun 3, 2010)

Some people like a good argument. HT is for slot cars. Bill Hall is one of my reasons i am on HT. We could have had some more great posting from him if other people would not like to argue. He knows who he is, he has argued with others.
SJJ


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## bobhch (Apr 22, 2007)

*Smoke on the ARMATURE...Fire in the sky...dun,dun,dun...dun, dun ta dun*

I stopped Smoking 4-11-2011 

Bob...almost 1 year now!!...zilla

P.S. as a kid I smoked Armatures on purpose by putting windex on my track. The rear tires would spin all the way down the staight away. Eventualy after doing this for a long enough time SMOKE would apear.

At $1.29 each for Non-Magnatraction cars when the Magnatraction cars came out this was just some cheap fun...BURN BABY BURN!!!! LOL:freak:

Bob...Deep Purple Rocks...zilla


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## joegri (Feb 13, 2008)

*was there a monte python bit?*

i came here for an arguement... no you did,nt ... yes i did.. no you did,nt and so on lol. so proud of you zilla a year is a long time for no smokes. i,m down to 6 or so aday for a month now jst gonna keep cutting back. sorry fellas no progress this weekend had to remove the head on the van and get it to the machineshop this a.m. thought i,d post a few pics of this job!! man i gotta be crazy to do this stuff.


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## tjd241 (Jan 25, 2004)

*Why there's yer problem right there mister...*

.. ya got 4 gopher holes in yer motor. :dude:


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

LOL,yes lets move on.
TJD,dynamic brakes short the positive and negative terminals of your DC slotcar motor together,and throw the motor into a dead short,just so you know:thumbsup:
You can accomplish the same thing by laying a screwdriver across your track rails,and shorting the rails together.
The principle has been around for decades,with no smoke.
Any track wired for brakes has a built in "Dead Short"

ALpink,for a guy i had to draw several pic's for about positive and negative polarity wiring before you got the concept,i think i might be quite.

I'm hoping some guys are starting to grasp the concept and principle behind slotcar brakes,especially some of the newer members,the older guys probably already know the concept,except maybe one or 2 that took the time to post here,but there's lots of newer members that don't

Teaching Rick,i'll get you guys taught yet,lol:wave:


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## ruralradio (Mar 11, 2011)

*adding to the confusion.....*

Hi, guys. Since you're on the topic of vintage style pancake pan cars, thought I'd add a few of mine to the mix. I used to race this style car in Michigan HOPRA in the early '70's. The forementioned Doug Morris was a partner in crime. All the cars have "mean green" arms, except the pick-up car that runs an sgrig quad-lam that clyde-o-mite turned me on to. The angle winder is a "Landshark". BTW, the wiper holders are attached to the pan with JB Weld (acts as an insulator, too.), the bottom of the pan is covered with Scotch transparent tape.


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

*He'll have the number 2*

Whoopsie! Move on? 

Not so fast there "teach". Best step away from that jetpack and put down them dynamic brake crayons. You havent finished that plate of crow you ordered. Now conveniently being served at the "Rural Radio" restaurant. Comes on a delicious bed of...

insulator tape with a side of epoxy .

You want a cup of hemlock with that; or are ya just gonna man up and fall on yer cutlery? 

Yes, please; y'all move ahead now. I'll be along shortly, unfortunately I've soiled myself LMAO.


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## slotcarman12078 (Oct 3, 2008)

I think there's a rather important point that's being missed here. Dynamic brakes through the controller are vastly different than a short caused by a brass pan spin out, or poor engineering. Brakes are a controlled short with no power being applied to the rail. A spin out can bridge the rail with the controller still supplying juice to the rails. One makes the car slow down quicker. The latter potentially makes a fuse or breaker pop, or worse if you're not running some sort of protection.


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## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

*Quiet*



Hornet said:


> LOL,yes lets move on.
> TJD,dynamic brakes short the positive and negative terminals of your DC slotcar motor together,and throw the motor into a dead short,just so you know:thumbsup:
> You can accomplish the same thing by laying a screwdriver across your track rails,and shorting the rails together.
> The principle has been around for decades,with no smoke.
> ...


yes you probably should remain quiet once you learn how to spell it.

perhaps using the correct terminology regarding polarities would have been a better tack.

let me make it clear that I never thought anything about an armature in the post Bill mentioned "letting the smoke out".
and other than the illustrious hornet, i didn't see anyone else mention it either.

I am trying to be on my best behavior here regarding your misinterpretation of Bills post and you insistence to be speaking for all the other member of Hobby Talk.

I am considering taking an online poll to determine who would like your advocacy in lieu of their own stated opinion.

as slotcarman pointed out, there is a vast difference between shorting powered rails and the brake configuration of a controller which is designed to negate the power to the rails from the power supply immediately previous to the actual brake being applied.
in fact the brake merely shunts the left over electrons that would have continued powering the motor upon release of the controller from a power condition to a neutral condition.
having used DYNAMIC braking with a shunt in the shut down area of various scaled drag strips I have built and operated and even experimented with REVERSE polarity at low voltages in the said shut down area, I think i have an idea of what brakes and shunts and reversal of polarity provide on slot car tracks for cars of various scales, values and top end speeds.

having said all that, i will thank you, hornet, for not presuming to speak for me.

al :wave:


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## tjd241 (Jan 25, 2004)

*Now it's my turn eh?...*



Hornet said:


> TJD,dynamic brakes short the positive and negative terminals of your DC slotcar motor together,and throw the motor into a dead short,just so you know:thumbsup:


Uh, sorry to burst yer bubble here Professor, but I don't remember raising my hand to ask this question. Your attempts at one-upsmanship and argument for argument's sake sound even hollower to me. I guess I wasn't paying attention to myself in class either. Did I say armature or imply something I didn't know too? I'm sorry, it must've been because I'm still working on my "list of slot car accomplishments". 

Now where was I ???... oh yeah my list... #1... hmmm.


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## joegri (Feb 13, 2008)

*nice pans rural!!*

rural thanx for posting the pics of of the chassis. they are just what i was lookin to reproduce. they all look smooth n fast.. are they? jst got a lil inspireation to work on my pan but i gotta finish the van first. nice job on the pans rural!


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## bobhch (Apr 22, 2007)

joegri 6 or so smokes is great...soon you won't even be able to stand the smell of smoke from a Cigarette.

My Sister -in- Law and Brother -in- Law were outside on Easter smoking.

I walked into the smoke air and almost PUKED....that's how much your brain changes after a year with no smokes. 

Plus I get to live long enough to see my kids have kids someday! 

Bob...what is an armature?...zilla


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## ruralradio (Mar 11, 2011)

Thanks, joegri. This style car is my favorite to drive, of course not as blindingly fast as a modern magnet car, but lots of fun when they're over-motored (no such thing as too much horsepower! Well, almost....). They slide around in fast, controllable drifts, and you can often catch them before a de-slot when you overcook a corner. Plus, I just like to actually build a car, rather then just bashing a bunch of parts together. I've been back into this just a couple years, and it seemed to me the art of scratch-building HO race cars was nearly lost (except for the extreme unlimited magnet cars), but is now being resurrected with the Midwest Gravity Unlimited series (which Doug Morris recently won), and the possibility of a Western States BRASCAR/G.U. series in the works. Check around on the Planet.Of.Speed. and Slotblog BBS's, more cars posted there. Wish I could get back and race with those guys (sorry Bill, I kinda have a racer's mentality). As mentioned in an earlier post, check out Doug's newsletters, very informative on builds and parts. I'll try to get some topside pics posted for you detailing the wiper/pick-up holders, etc.


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

*Purely a matter of taste*

No apologies required. 

I agree... 

...and I'll add that the definition of building has changed considerably since I was a young dinosaur slotting about in the golden age. I love scratch building, especially vintage brass or modified, the myriad of variations, studying the heritage, and the tail full out driving style it affords. 

While I do appreciate the whole boxed magna-plastic genre for what it is; I love that vintage big scale car feel in HO. I fergot what I was missing til I resurrected a vintage "barn find" a coupla years back.


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## ruralradio (Mar 11, 2011)

Joegri, when you set that car up, go low, but keep the pan off the rails. Not because of shorts.... a dragging pan will make you lose any traction afforded by your tires, metal to metal won't stick as well as silicone! Remember, magnetic downforce does not figure into the equation here, chassis dynamics and tires do. Soft silly/sponge tires work best, clean tires, clean track. In the day, we ran spongies with glue, can't do that now and also run modern tires and magnet cars as it gunks up your track. I also have a couple HT-50 can cars in the works, they were the bomb until Aurora released the original A/FX that most of us took to back then.

Other big partners in crime in the day were Al Thurman, builder of the "Landshark" angle winders (inline kits, too, check his stuff out), and Keith Van Atta, whom I blame for dragging me back to this addiction. Need to poke KVA in the tail to finish the tutorials he started last year before he got busy with school and a new job.


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## partspig (Mar 12, 2003)

I have a question for all the "dinosaurs" here frequenting this post, but mind you, that this question comes from the same! Why do you need brakes on a t-jet track anyways?? Back in the day, assume the age of dinosaurs here, we didn't wire our tracks for brakes. We built the brakes into the car. Most t-jet tracks I have had the pleasure of racing on, were not wired for brakes. All brakes ever did was slow me down! Ask Fred Flintstone!! Beat feet!!  :freak: pig


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## ruralradio (Mar 11, 2011)

*slot cars drift, so do threads.....*

Good question, pig, maybe just a matter of driver preference. I didn't run many T-Jets, got into serious HO during the Riggen/scratch built can car daze right before the A/FX took over. All the HOPRA tracks in the '70's were wired for brakes, as now. I've always liked big brakes racing 1/24 cars, and on A/FX pan cars as posted here earlier. On my can motored gravity cars, little or no brakes. Magnet cars, who needs brakes?


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Right from you Al:in fact the brake merely shunts the left over electrons that would have continued powering the motor upon release of the controller from a power condition to a neutral condition.

Al:right from my Merriam-Webster Dictionary 

Neutral:1 one that is neutral.2:a neutral color .3:the position of Machine gears,in which the motor imparts no motion.4 not electrically charged

Al why don't you go into detail of how dynamic brakes work,i'd like to hear how you're applying a brake circuit in which the motor is imparting no motion,as in no power or braking,while it's not electrically charged.
I gotta hear how that principle works


Al: i suppose you're the first guy who's hooked a 1.5 volt D battery to his dragstrip and used it as reverse power,is that kinda like you're highly guarded helper springs in an endbell,we're still laughing over that one:thumbsup:

Al,i'm not the guy who couldn't wrap his head around where a simple switch goes in a simple electrical circuit,i explained it the best i could,pretty well everybody else got it except you.
But hey lets blame the guy explaining things as patiently as he could.
Correct me if i'm wrong,but i was the only guy who'd put up with you long enough to get it through your head


Slotcar dude,read my earlier posts,think i told JOE J that he could have problems with his track fuses,i think you must of missed that post.

Hokay,you guys are too smart for me,so i'm gonna sit back and wait to hear your guys explanations of how Dynamic Brakes work,so do your homework boys.
Lets hear the principles involved in a DC motors braking circuits,and why the motor goes into a lock-up mode.

I want to hear how Al's left over electrons apply a brake circuit.


.


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## alpink (Aug 22, 2010)

I can't argue unless you've paid.


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## Hornet (Dec 1, 2005)

Well that's new,you not arguing:wave:

One other question if the pans clearing the rails going straight-ahead,how does a flat pan short out the rails on a spin-out,the tires get shorter or something.
If the pan clears going straight ahead,it also clears when it's spun out,unless your running a notched pan,and i haven't seen anybody running such a pan yet:wave:


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## ajd350 (Sep 18, 2005)




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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

Uh.....duh.....the contact is never lost....and thats kind of the point. It's one of the operative symptoms of a short...THE POWER IS STILL CONNECTED! 

Just because the "work" (motor) is disconnected from the rail because the contacts are re-indexed in a slide, doesnt mean they're not still touching the rail (s)...another one of your grandiose broad stroked assumptions based on blind eyed bluster.

It's become pretty clear that you've never seen rumpled braids or foils under an extremely low metal chassied gravity racer and the obvious potential for trouble. Other wise you would recognize the ease with which the contacts, rails, and chassis could bridge in less than optimum conditions.

Now lemmee see here...do we 

A. go with the obvious slot dogma that was laid down decades ago

...or

B. Let Hornet to put his money where his mouth is and encourage him to ACTUALLY build an operational vintage brass scratch car and hang a big ole slab of brass right over the rails with some wriggling and jiggling foils er braids in the scant thousanths between.

C. just go with what Hornet sez cuz he sez so. 

Like others, I'm still patiently waiting for your reply/rebuttal/blarney as to why Tyco insulated the bottom of all their metal panned racers? Tick Tock! Yer refusal to answer this simple question calls yer argument into question.


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## Boosted-Z71 (Nov 26, 2007)

Ruralradio, those pan cars are sweet, I am working on a pan car myself at this time but have not been able to put the time into it I want to. I have never seen a 4 gear with a pan as well, but yours looks great. Mine is going to be a shaker style in the middle, with a fixed brass nose, still lots of things to figure out, thanks for posting the pics, Very nice chassis.

Boosted


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## Mexkilbee (Apr 17, 2008)

*Dynamic Brakes*

I was taught, or came to understand that when power is supplied to a DC Armature it is a "Motor" when power is cut and said armature is "Freewheeling (or spun from outside source)" it becomes a "generator". Grounding of the currant from the armature (which is now acting as a Generator) is the Dynamic Brake. in large applications this produces heat, enough heat to warrant massive heat sinks and cooling fans (diesel locomotives). Our punie 16ohm arms do not require such items. 
A short is a short, and shorting out 20v w/an amp behind it is much more...spark-tacular than giving .3millivolts nowhere to go. 
speaking of trains mind just derailed. forgot where i was going with this. other than shorting out the track... not good. Not the same as Dynamic Brakes. 
i'll shut up and go stand in corner.


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## ruralradio (Mar 11, 2011)

*more thread clutter....*

Hello again. Here's a few top side pics of for Joegri or whoever else cares. I tend to set the "wipers" back into the front of the pan a bit to protect them from getting tweaked in a frontal impact. The epoxy that attaches/insulates the holders is also pulled down the front edge of the pan and filed smooth. I use JB Weld, it sets up harder than normal epoxy. Sorry, they're not as pretty as some of the gravity cars you'll find....


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## ruralradio (Mar 11, 2011)

*more....*

more...


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

*Most refreshing!*

NOT CLUTTER! 

At HT, that is called QUALITY CONTENT. Very cool indeed!

We have a brass thread some where's :freak:. If ya wouldnt mind perhaps we can add these pix to it and help flesh it out. 

Some of us here dabble in brass, be it full on brass pans or hybrids. Your contributions are much needed and welcome. They absolutely help to inspire others.

Thanx for taking the time! :thumbsup:


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## ruralradio (Mar 11, 2011)

Thanks, Bill. I was going to ask if there was an HO scratch build thread here somewhere, as on some of the other boards. I've never been much into polishing my builds, and there's a good amount of track grime on the cars. Oh, yeah, I've finally found that missing body pin..... can you? :tongue:


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## sidejobjon (Jun 3, 2010)

Rural,
Some nice Collection you have there are some vintage? They look great to me, i love & can`t get enough brass HO. There is topic Brass HO scratch also under custom on third page.
Thanks SJJ:thumbsup:


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## ruralradio (Mar 11, 2011)

John, they're all recent builds, using some vintage parts, such as the NOS TCP pans and A/FX non-mag chassis. Brush tubes are from Doug Morris. You've probably seen the same cars over on the Slotblog and POS boards. Working on a couple hand-cut pans now for future use. All my cars from the '70's went away many years ago.


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

ruralradio said:


> ...... Oh, yeah, I've finally found that missing body pin..... can you? :tongue:


Passenger side, pulled up against the front magnet, laying horizontal head facing forward.


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## ruralradio (Mar 11, 2011)

:thumbsup: Yep, and I've no idea how long that puppy's been there....


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

Schtuck to der magnut! :thumbsup:

I thought thats where y'all store them safely.


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## joegri (Feb 13, 2008)

thank you for posting some pics of yer chassis rural! thats what i needed to see. after the body is mounted ya cant see if a chassis is clean or dirty! the only thing that really matters is... it gets around the trak with good speed n handling! and it,s something that yer hands have put together. i see here that boosted has 1 in the works. so boosted if you have time post some pics of where you are with yer build.as for my build i hav,nt touched it cuz i,ve been putting my van back together n have a good size job that has a time frame on it. although i did pic it up last nite and looked at it.i,ll be getting a permisson slip/hallpass this weekend. the tm is going to visit her mother for a week and there is some rain in the forcast for a few days so that spells slotcave time for me!! maybe i can make some headway. also thanx bill hall for posting the video of the tyco/hybred chassis !! that is a major influence why i like to fumble around with this stuff.keep,em comming fellas this is good stuff.


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## SouthLyonBen (Mar 14, 2012)

Anyone try building one out of a Tyco? I've been eyeing some of my $3 Mattel chassis with sharp steel in my hands


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## Bill Hall (Jan 6, 2007)

*Rock solid*



SouthLyonBen said:


> Anyone try building one out of a Tyco? I've been eyeing some of my $3 Mattel chassis with sharp steel in my hands


Sure Ben,

I've been doing it for a while now.

The Tyco 440 /Mattel stuff is a great upgraded reload for tired Mabuchi cans. Magnets Armature and brushes all interchange easily. I use the pinion and crown too. Great for full brass pans and hybrids. 

Pull the brush tubes and dont lose the stuff.
Pry the end tabs away and remove the comm block.
Remove old arm.
Identify/mark, then pry the sacked magnets out and remove any duff.
Install the 440 magnets using super glue gel.
Clean the comm and install the 440 arm into the can. 
Set the end play using the appropriate stock shims, err to the loose side, I only refold two of the four comm block retainer tabs during set up and testing. 
Clean the brush tubes and carefully install good springs and brushes.
Prelube and break in

It's that easy :thumbsup:


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## SouthLyonBen (Mar 14, 2012)

I was more thinking of adding a pan to an inline that was liberated of it's traction mags. So the 440 motor mags go right in the can? I tried putting some in a US-1 can and it didn't seem like they wanted to go but I got some new brushes into the old thing so it wasn't a total loss. But I never tried prying apart any of my other cans, well unless you count as a kid when they never went back together


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## ruralradio (Mar 11, 2011)

Some of the racers in the Midwest Gravity Unlimited series have been installing pans on BSRT/G-Jet chassis, shouldn't be to tough a job on a Tyco. PM me your e-mail, I may have some pics I could send you. The series was won by an A/FX pan car with stock pick-ups, one of the cars I posted was modeled after that car. If you're interested, the "lift-pin" tech device used for checking for magnetic downforce in that series is available from Scale Engineering or Lucky Bob's. BTW, I grew up in Milford, just up north of you. Raced all over the Midwest. Left in late '75


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## ruralradio (Mar 11, 2011)

Didn't have time to dig for photos, but here's a link to the POS site that shows a number of cars from the Midwest Gravity Unlimited series.

http://www.planetofspeed.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6100


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## joegri (Feb 13, 2008)

*done...for now*

well now i finally finished this build...for now.i can tell ya that it goes real smooth n steady/predictable.much to my surprise the arm that is in there turned out to be a goer! green wire/gray tips.i put some tuffy mags in as an experiment too.and i never use a 9 tooth gear but this 1 used it fine for my trak.i hav,nt had alot of time in the last month or so for slots but i really wanted to semi finish this 1. iwas really pleased that you could turn maybe 20 laps or so and it just kept getting better then you,d have to stop n clean the braids off(fuzz balls).so it,s done for now. tink i,ll fool around with a magna trak chassis next only cuz i dont have any that i use. i have some in a box somewhere? but best of all. the smoke is still in the wires!!! this thing was built with stuff i had laying around the bench and a gift of beater chassis and a body from al pink. thanx al. goahead n try 1 you,ll be pleasntly surprised what you end up with! oopps ! looks like i,m having a problem with the pics . i,ll post them soon as i figure it out.


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## joegri (Feb 13, 2008)

*think i got it*

hope the pics come out this time!


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## ruralradio (Mar 11, 2011)

Looks good, Joe, have fun with those TCP pans!


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## Ralphthe3rd (Feb 24, 2011)

Good build you got there, glad it all fell together nicely :thumbsup:. And FWIW, I really like the Wild Ones Arms, both the Green Wire w/Grey tip and the Green w/red tips..... most of mine run as fast (when used with Wiz Brushes and Dash Mags) as Tuffy Mean Green Arms !


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## WesJY (Mar 4, 2004)

SO COOL!!! :thumbsup:

Wes


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## SouthLyonBen (Mar 14, 2012)

ruralradio said:


> Some of the racers in the Midwest Gravity Unlimited series have been installing pans on BSRT/G-Jet chassis, shouldn't be to tough a job on a Tyco. PM me your e-mail, I may have some pics I could send you. The series was won by an A/FX pan car with stock pick-ups, one of the cars I posted was modeled after that car. If you're interested, the "lift-pin" tech device used for checking for magnetic downforce in that series is available from Scale Engineering or Lucky Bob's. BTW, I grew up in Milford, just up north of you. Raced all over the Midwest. Left in late '75


Oops I missed that you posted this. Milford must have been "the sticks" back then. I was born in '76  I wanted to use a Lexan body on my attempt but the ones I ordered from a vendor I won't name are apparently never coming.


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## ruralradio (Mar 11, 2011)

SouthLyonBen said:


> Oops I missed that you posted this. Milford must have been "the sticks" back then. I was born in '76  I wanted to use a Lexan body on my attempt but the ones I ordered from a vendor I won't name are apparently never coming.


Milford was the "sticks", so was South Lyon! Drove thru when I worked in Ann Arbor. BTW, my kids are older than you!!


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## SouthLyonBen (Mar 14, 2012)

Yeah those new fangled inline cars were already the norm when I got my first slot car set. I was always interested in the older slot stuff since living in small towns the libraries still had books leftover from the slot heyday of a the 60s it all seemed so cool :dude:


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