# Battery Advancement



## NCFRC (Aug 4, 2005)

Basically I just wanted to voice my opinion on the continual battery
advancement and I'm sure this Thread will really do NO good.

IF WE AS RACERS WOULD STOP BUSTING OUR TRACKS WE RACE AT TO ALLOW US TO RUN BIGGER, FASTER BATTERIES THEN I'M QUITE SURE 
THIS SPORT WOULD BE STRONGER , THERE HAS TO BE AN END TO THE
CONTINUOUS SPENDING OR BEFORE WE KNOW IT THERE WON'T BE ANY 
RC RACERS OR TRACKS AND WE'LL BE LOOKING AT OUR PILE OF STUFF 
LIKE ALL THE SLOT CAR DRIVERS DID AND STILL DO.

STAND UP AT YOUR LOCAL TRACK AND JUST SAY NO, WE'RE GOING TO
STAY WITH THE MAH LIMIT WE HAVE NOW.

I SHOULDN'T SAY THIS BUT IT DIDN'T HELP THAT ROAR '' WHO IS SUPPOSED 
TO HELP THIS SPORT " PASSED THE 4600'S ??????
COME ON , THINK ABOUT IT


----------



## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

....same old thing...if you don't allow them...you'll have guys who can't get NEW stuff within the rules. (matchers quit matching OLD stuff...and only match NEW stuff)

I legalized 4600's for our series back in December of last year...cause we KNEW they were coming.


----------



## NCFRC (Aug 4, 2005)

I'm sure different parts of the country has many different thoughts about this , just some area's it deters racing more than others.

And yes ,,,, This is the same old story we had last year when 4200's appeared.

The sad part is " racers will buy them if they can afford it or not "


----------



## NCFRC (Aug 4, 2005)

4200's will be around for quite some time so availability should be no problem


----------



## Anytime72 (Feb 20, 2003)

Sounds good but when there are no more 4200's around to be had what will you do then? I think less guys will go race if they know there batteries aren't as good as the guy next to them. You can't stop technology and battery technology will continue to progress and new limits will try to be reached as time goes on regardless of it being good to us or bad to our sport.


----------



## NCFRC (Aug 4, 2005)

Anytime72 said:


> Sounds good but when there are no more 4200's around to be had what will you do then? I think less guys will go race if they know there batteries aren't as good as the guy next to them. You can't stop technology and battery technology will continue to progress and new limits will try to be reached as time goes on regardless of it being good to us or bad to our sport.



I do realize that's the sad truth to all this and 10 years from now we'll all look back and realize what killed the sport.
Many other sports are wise enough to anylize and project where we'll be a few years down the road , but RC is too dictated from the manufacturers.


----------



## Junk 1 (Nov 1, 2005)

4200s .....around for a long time ? Is that why we cannot get any new packs allready , early in the carpet season :woohoo:  :woohoo: I have raced only 5 yrs. , and we have went from 3300s to 4600s now. I do not mind spending money for good packs, but the availability has been absolutely pathetic this year.......My 2 cents !


----------



## JeffPatch29 (Jan 21, 2002)

it's not the racers or the organizations that are driving the change. If a MFG decides they are no longer going to procuce a cell, and implement a new and improved one in it's place, what else can we do but adopt the new cell? Run packs for years? it just won't work. As a racer, I don't see the big deal people make over new cells in the first place. Bottom line is unless you are running open modified, are you going to notice a difference between a 4200 and a 4600 on the track? No, your not. With a perfect run, the difference might be a few tenths faster, tops. It's much easier to get that about of improvement out of chassis set-up than it is with motors or batteries. As racers, we need to blame our (not being fast enough) on something, and the motors and batteries are the easiest place to blame. The fast guys are fast no matter what equipment they use, simply because they know the speed is in the set-up, not the components. We convince ourselves that newer bigger batteries and motors will make us faster, but without the set-up underneath it nothing will make a difference. People feel that new packs are a necessity when they are released. Truth is, a new 4200 or a new 4600 won't show much difference on a track, because packs always preform better when they are new, period. If you don't want to spend the money on new 4600's that's fine, for me I don't care. I buy 1-2 packs a month, so it's not a big deal for me if I am buying 4200's or 4600's. Just my opinion, from my experience over the past 13 years.


----------



## NCFRC (Aug 4, 2005)

Junk 1 said:


> 4200s .....around for a long time ? Is that why we cannot get any new packs allready , early in the carpet season :woohoo:  :woohoo: I have raced only 5 yrs. , and we have went from 3300s to 4600s now. I do not mind spending money for good packs, but the availability has been absolutely pathetic this year.......My 2 cents !



5 years ? your just starting out in this sport .

The only reason 4200's are short at this time is because one manufacturer
has quality issues and the other has been hit with such a huge demand.

Its basically a budget issue on which side your thoughts are on.
Only time will tell the story , it's going to end somehow.
With the state of this country , the average racer can't buy a pack or two
every month.


----------



## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

...Personally, I haven't bought any more battery packs the past two years on average than I have the previous 22 years I've been racing.

The 3800's were awesome packs, but they went through too many changes, the 3300 GP's were some of the best batteries I've ever used...but they too went through too many changes (meaning you could not really compare the original GP3300's in the light green generic shrink to the later 3300's) 

4200's went the same way...the first group were pretty durable, then they came with the HIGH VOLTAGE stuff. That seemed to bring FAST CARS and SHORT BATTERY life. Those guys who are willing to spend an ungodly amount of money on batteries to have that extra GO FAST don't seem to mind this stuff...but the rest of us HATE IT.

The later 4200's from IP and EP seemed pretty durable..but WHO CARES if you are getting your butt handed to you by IB's with higher voltage.

Don't care about MODIFIED - in Most of this country NOBODY really runs MOD anyway.

In the classes like STOCK, 19t, 10.5 VOLTAGE is very important (Moreso than runtime..cause nobody is really DUMPING these things)

Personally for Sub "C" type battery matching, I'd like to see the numbers calculated a little different.

I'd like to see stickers showing the voltage at 15 seconds into the discharge, 150 seconds into the discharge and again at the 300 second mark.

I think 30 amps would be fine..but 35 amps is ok too.

To see us batteries using an AVERAGE Voltage number that goes to .9 volts per cell with todays run time...I think is silly for most classes of racing.

Either calculate how many amps it takes to DUMP the battery in 240 seconds (or 300 for those of us who race 5 minute races) and use that as the Discharge amperage...or else just discharge them for the 240 or 300 seconds and give numbers based on that time.


----------



## Fred B (Sep 26, 2001)

Junk 1 said:


> 4200s .....around for a long time ? Is that why we cannot get any new packs allready , early in the carpet season :woohoo:  :woohoo: I have raced only 5 yrs. , and we have went from 3300s to 4600s now. I do not mind spending money for good packs, but the availability has been absolutely pathetic this year.......My 2 cents !


From what I hear (thru the grape vine) a large part of the IB shortage is because a certain company is not bringing any cells into the states. I'm hearing that they told IB to fix their cells (durability and exploding cells).

For several of the last big races, there have been cells exploding. I can't emagine what that would do in a TM8. Not good.


----------



## shouw dungpow (Jun 23, 2007)

Newer is always better faster . So for a racer its always about going faster and pushing it to the limits. Why go slow ? If people dont want to keep up . They need to go run the snack bar. LOL good day .


----------



## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

> Newer is always better faster . So for a racer its always about going faster and pushing it to the limits. Why go slow ? If people dont want to keep up . They need to go run the snack bar. LOL good day .


 Now there's a dumb attitude...and very little truth...and maybe something that causes racers to leave the hobby.

1st - NEWER doesn't always mean FASTER - the newer IP and EP 4200's I don't think proved they were faster than a good IB4200. I don't believe the 4300's were faster either.

2nd - FASTER isn't always BETTER. Sometimes we get to the point where FASTER is just destructive, and causes people to LEAVE the hobby. This is why things need to be re-evaluated every so often and put back into check.

3rd - NOBODY should ever been singled out and told "If you can't handle the speed...go run the snack bar" There is a place for EVERYONE who enjoys RACING RC Cars...to actually race. 

4th - THERE is No room for people who feel otherwise.


----------



## NCFRC (Aug 4, 2005)

swtour said:


> Now there's a dumb attitude...and very little truth...and maybe something that causes racers to leave the hobby.
> 
> 1st - NEWER doesn't always mean FASTER - the newer IP and EP 4200's I don't think proved they were faster than a good IB4200. I don't believe the 4300's were faster either.
> 
> ...




THANKYOU , I COULDN'T HAVE SAID IT BETTER MYSELF .

ANYONE WHO COMMENTS TO ANOTHER RC RACER THAT IF HE CAN'T AFFORD IT DOESN'T BELONG IN THIS SPORT !

GO GET INVOLVED IN SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T USE YOUR POCKETBOOK AND LETS SEE HOW YOU DO.

I REALLY CAN'T BELIEVE THAT WAS STATED , BUT ON THE OTHER HAND AND LOW DRIVER COUNTS ACROSS THE COUNTRY , I CAN.


----------



## Tommygun43 (Nov 17, 2002)

Fred B said:


> From what I hear (thru the grape vine) a large part of the IB shortage is because a certain company is not bringing any cells into the states. I'm hearing that they told IB to fix their cells (durability and exploding cells).


That's right, SMC imports the IB cells, they are the only place matchers can get the cells from.

p.s. I like proving batteries don't mean that much by running 3800's and beating people running 4200's. There reaction is funny.


----------



## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

> p.s. I like proving batteries don't mean that much by running 3800's and beating people running 4200's. There reaction is funny.


Stuff like that happens plenty depending on the type of track and the level of your competition...BUT, not very often will you find guys willing to show up at a HORSE POWER race with a tiny pony.

I admit most of the time - LOWER POWER probably helps me. (To prove it I quite often run a 13.5 motor in the 10.5 class) and usually end up faster. I'm also known for driving my car for 2-3 laps before the start of a race..to take the TOP CHARGE off the pack. That way when I come out of the hole...I know what the car will do lap after lap.

However, the 150-200 second voltage is VERY important to me. By then I'm usually somewhat settled into my groove and actually racing people...and it's frustrating as heck to have a pack drop off in the middle of a good door to door run.


----------



## NCFRC (Aug 4, 2005)

If you take a close look at the tech sheets on a 4200 cell vs. a 4500 or 4600 
what you'll see is a cell with slightly longer run time but the IR is about the same and alot of the time the average voltage will be slightly lower .

Unless your running mod. and need that extra 15-20 sec's , there's absolutely NO need for a higher number cell.

The biggest reason that 4500 /4600's are selling is that the average racer
thinks that they have to be better and if the matchers are pushing them,
they'll sell.

Most of these are tweeked 4200's with a slightly different configuration to
extend the mah slightly , but again only by 15 sec's or so and how much do
you really need for a 4-5 min race ?

Look at the EP home page , they still produce 3800's , 4000's ,4200's and
have no thought of cancelling them soon.


----------



## Impdog (May 23, 2003)

Today I cycled our first pack of ep4200 6 cells a pack we won at a race a few weeks ago, this is on a CE gfx, chg 6.5 02 PD 30AMP dis.heres is the numbers 902-72-10.6-474-743-747-3950-29364....voltage at 180sec into dis 7.54 AT240- 7.48 AT 300-7.41 it is somewhat better than previous ib 4200s but not by that much,but the durability issue is the question?


----------



## DARKSCOPE001 (Jun 14, 2006)

I second what tommy gun said, why go with cells that have a reputation of exploding. I used 3800 because its more than enough power for a race. and most of those drivers talking about how that extra voltage is going to give them the edge are hacks anyways. I remember I used to race oval and every weekend guys would come up to me and say man your car is crap, or man your batterys are week or crappy. and I would put my car on the track. and show them just how crappy they were. funny, I thought it was more about driver and experience . but apparently im wrong its car and equipment :freak:


----------



## 420 Tech R/C (Sep 15, 2006)

I run 3300's in my dirt cars AND my 1/12 scale. Placed 2nd last week with 3 year old 3300's in a 1/12 scale car running a 13.5 and had more than enough battery to run an 8 minute race, so I agree completely. good driving WILL make up for mediocre gear any day. Not to call 3300's mediocre cuz I love how durable they are. I dont run matched packs anymore either. With the run time you get with today's electronics the only thing I care about is average voltage in relation to Mah.and 3300's delver the power needed for the duration I need them to.


----------



## KenBajdek (Oct 7, 2001)

We have plenty of NEW SMC IB4200's 4 and 6 cells ready to ship. I don't know of what shortage you are talking about. EP4200 are scarce now due to the 4600's being released.


----------



## Razoo (Jan 15, 2004)

Ken-
Have you or any of your customers had any problems with these batteries either venting or blowing up while charging? I could use a couple of packs but right now I'm just too scared to purchase any. I'm still using last years batteries, I may go slower but I don't need to keep a constant eye on them either. And I'm not too concerned when my wife and kids come to watch me race and sit with me in my pit area. Maybe I should be.


----------



## KenBajdek (Oct 7, 2001)

We have had a few who had issues but didn't have peak settings set right or reflex charged them. Most complaints have been the 1 cell that is causing the pack to not charge correctly. Zapping the cells and/or dead shorting has fixed many of the issues. 


I know the IB 4200 has been unstable for all of us. I know that if you watch the pack as it charges and it doesn't overheat you should not have any issues. I have been very diligent in charging and discharging. I have heard stories of batteries exploding after a discharge but I'm thinking something else is going on that is causing that. Making sure that you don't have dead cell(one that won't take a charge) or cell is heating up more than the others.


I have been dead shorting them between weekly racing and have had great luck in keeping them going. Constantly checking temp during the charge cycle is very important. 

Dead shorting has been used a lot of guys running the IB batteries. It isn't that hard to do. Discharge the pack to .9 volt per cell then equalize on a tray that can drop to about .7 to .8 for a pack then dead short and hold it until next week. Watch your charger for false peaking and keep an eye on your temp as they charge.


----------



## 420 Tech R/C (Sep 15, 2006)

sorry, but I will wait it out before I buy any IB cells. What good is a battery that MIGHT work the way you need it to. I will keep runnin my old 3300's and beatin guys that spend WAY too much money on these junk cells on the market right now.And in the mean time if my 3300's finally give out, I will go to cheap battery packs .com and buy some of the ELITE 4000 or 3600 cells. I have been running their 1500 2/3A cells in my minis this year and I am very impressed with them.they make the ib 1400's look like the trash they are for 2/3 the price.Bottom line is the manufacturers are rushing these cells to the market without doing the proper testing.they are just worried about making a buck while their brand is the hot item on the market.I mean come on, for the high dollar being paid for these things you shouldnt have to worry about zapping, or dead shorting, or even rematching to find dead cells after 5-10 cycles.


----------



## KenBajdek (Oct 7, 2001)

The IB thing has been over hyped. You should always watch your batteries when you charge them. Dead shorting maks the cells better than if you don't dead short. I don't know how a GP3300 cell will out run any newer cell IB or EP cell. Unless you are running novice. Run time isn't usually the issue its the volts and IR that make the cells perfrom better, other than mod. 

If the elite cells were any good I would think you would see them everywhere. I wouldn't from cheapbatterypacks.com any way. Support your local hobby shop 
and/or track where you race. 

Battery maintenance has always been very important to great life and performance no matter what cells we are using.


----------



## 420 Tech R/C (Sep 15, 2006)

yeah...... you keep buying those trash 4200's and I will stick with what has been working for me, besides people that can drive dont need the flavor of the week to go have fun and do well.sorry , but we dont have a local hobby shop, or track, so i have to buy things in advance and be ready when I drive for 2 hours to go race. Novice??? maybe in 1986 when I started doing this.... for the first 2 times I raced.You are right in 1 respect ken, maintenance is critical in maintaining battery performance , That's why the 3300,s I am running are getting over 3400 mah per charge and an av. voltage of 5.6 v with a peak voltage of 6.3v on a 4 cell pack @ a 4.5a charge rate.but if the cells are garbage to begin with it doesnt matter how much maintenace you do. let me pose you a question, if an auto manufacturer has to recall a certain model car will you still go buy one even though you know it may be problematic??If you do your a damn fool, and you are asking for any trouble you get out of it.As for me keeping upwith my 3300's in NOVICE class thats why I have a 6th place A-main series trophy on my shelf from this season, and those junk ELITE cells took my Mini-inferno to a 3rd place series finish for the season. Hmm , I guess your right, as long as I run the same battery that every one else runs driving doesnt matter...Oh yeah thats right you have a stake in this being a battery guy, so if you admit that the product has a problem it will effect your wallet, yeah that sounds about right, say are you by chance related to ollie north???


----------



## brian0525 (Jan 17, 2005)

420 Tech R/C said:


> yeah...... you keep buying those trash 4200's and I will stick with what has been working for me, besides people that can drive dont need the flavor of the week to go have fun and do well.sorry , but we dont have a local hobby shop, or track, so i have to buy things in advance and be ready when I drive for 2 hours to go race. Novice??? maybe in 1986 when I started doing this.... for the first 2 times I raced.You are right in 1 respect ken, maintenance is critical in maintaining battery performance , but if the cells are garbage to begin with it doesnt matter how much maintenace you do. let me pose you a question, if an auto manufacturer has to recall a certain model car will you still go buy one even though you know it may be problematic??If you do your a damn fool, and you are asking for any trouble you get out of it.As for me keeping upwith my 3300's in NOVICE class thats why I have a 6th place A-main series trophy on my shelf from this season, and those junk ELITE cells took my Mini-inferno to a 3rd place series finish for the season. Hmm , I guess your right, as long as I run the same battery that every one else runs driving doesnt matter...Oh yeah thats right you have a stake in this being a battery guy, so if you admit that the product has a problem it will effect your wallet, yeah that sounds about right, say are you by chance related to ollie north???


what series?

you must race offroad or something cuase I promise you if you bring those 3300's to a big carpet onroad race or oval race you won't sniff the A with 3300's


----------



## 420 Tech R/C (Sep 15, 2006)

Man have you guys forgotten that they found the DEFECT in the IB cells??? The internal insulator is breaking down causing them to dead short internally. Read the other thread on this board.Yes i do run off road and 1/12 carpet, and they work for both.


----------



## NCFRC (Aug 4, 2005)

KenBajdek said:


> We have plenty of NEW SMC IB4200's 4 and 6 cells ready to ship. I don't know of what shortage you are talking about. EP4200 are scarce now due to the 4600's being released.


 
There's No shortage of EP-4200's and as I said earlier , EP is still currently making 3600's , 3800's , 4000's and the extremely reliable 4200.

I personnally don't like to use the blue cells and hear them hiss and crackle
while charging or discharging ,,, Dead shorting is a bandaid , if they were
problem free you wouldn't have to.

No matter how you slice it , EP's are king as of now. :thumbsup: 

I Don't even sell these things  

The people who do are the only ones that say their good now , IB has claimed
many times " we have the problems worked out "

JUST MY OPINION , HAVE FUN AT THE RACES


----------



## 420 Tech R/C (Sep 15, 2006)

Oh hey and also the ELITE cells i spoke of are not known to most racers because they are not on the ROAR approved list....YET.they meet all the requirements , just the only distributor in the U.S. is CBP.com and a few of us are trying to get him to submit a batch to rOAR for approval for next season.


----------



## NCFRC (Aug 4, 2005)

Just have a reasonable mah limit on the battery's your track allows and don't worry if their Roar approved or not,,,,,Their strictly a guide line , not the 
ruler of this sport.


----------



## 420 Tech R/C (Sep 15, 2006)

Yeah the problem is We dont have a local track here any more, so I run series' that do follow roar rules so until we can get them to be submitted for OK we really cant waste the money picking them up. I could run them in my track in the backyard, but that would still leave me running the 3300's in the dirt series'. Plus my 11 year old races with me so that means double EVERY THING.(and my wallet cries OUCH!) CBP. com carries the sub c sizes in 3600, 4000, and 4500. So I do think I will pick up some of the 4000's to runin my 1/12 to see how they do. This is my boy's first year out on carpet so I think I will let him keep running the 3300's. He's still trying to get over not having any high speed push like you do on dirt, so he's turning in a little early in the corners, but he's getting it.


----------



## BullFrog (Sep 24, 2002)

Simple answer for those using the ROAR rules at your track. As long as it is a ROAR santioned track/series it is simple to add a deviation to your rules or guidelines. Just send a copy to your region director.They get okayed and it's that simple.As long as it is written somewhere and posted so if someone new comes to your track they know what to expect.We've added deviations to the longest running ROAR series in the country for years.Many of the rules we've had turn into ROAR rules within a year or two.
If we followed and never lead the way many things would never have gotten done.
(1) The first to incorperate the 1/10th pan cars into a class.We used stock motors and 7 cells(1200's) and ran them 5 minutes. ROAR went 6 cells and 4 minutes. That was good since we burnt up many a stock motor.
(2) With better batteries (1700's)we went to 5 minute racing.
(3) Tourning cars
Now we have Brushless motors and Lipos. I started our series running Touring Cars with Brushless stock motors. This next year we are going to Lipos with Brushless motors. You can stick your heads in the sand but Lipos and Brushless are here to stay.You diehards can cut comms-change brushes and springs, have a dyno and use nimh batteries but I've gone Brushless and lipos.Now I've got more time to do things that I want to do in the pits- BS and enjoy myself with my friends.


----------

