# To heat or not the heal, that is the?



## RCThunder (Dec 19, 2001)

Just curious what guys think and what guys are doing... (on heating lipos).


----------



## katf1sh (Jan 17, 2002)

no to heating lipos!

this will be the start of the downfall of a good thing in my oppinion.

we do not allow overcharging why allow heating tricks.

mike blackstock himself screwed up and walked away from his heating pad and his lipo swelled up like a balloon. these gimmiks will one day cause a fire and shut down a local track!

nip this pooh pooh in the bud now!


----------



## brian0525 (Jan 17, 2005)

warm is a good thing!!!!!


----------



## brian0525 (Jan 17, 2005)

katf1sh said:


> no to heating lipos!
> 
> this will be the start of the downfall of a good thing in my oppinion.
> 
> ...


Never have I seen a heating pad that got hot enough to do this must be half of the real story.


----------



## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

> Never have I seen a heating pad that got hot enough to do this must be half of the real story.


Kinda what I was thinking...

We allow HEAT

Some are using REPTILE heaters, so regular heating pads..and a few guys have built a box w/ a lightbulb (like a susiebake oven) and a air vent to regulate the temps.

MOST don't - because they don't want to hassle with it...and I personally would prefer that nobody did..cause then it wouldn't be an issue.

I just encourage everyone to use their head, and think about SAFETY of others when you do what you do... and if everyone plays nicely... there should be very little actual NEED for a LIPO SACK - hiding your batteries where you can't visibly monitor them.


----------



## katf1sh (Jan 17, 2002)

it's a damn shame no one will listen or comprehend what they read.

here is mike blackstocks report word for word!!!!

For your info.. I did heat my lipo with a normal heating pad for back aches etc.. I would charge the lipo put them in the heating pad about 20 mins before i ran and the temp would be close to 110 when i took them out for my heat.. They would cool down on the outside quick but you could still tell when it was heated vs not heated.. 

On a side note i did on accident almost have a major problem, This happend during practice. I charged my lipo and then threw it in the heater and then i decided to go get something to eat and forgot i threw it in the heater.. So it was in there approx over a hour... BAD mistake.. I realized it and when i went to take it out the thing had swelled up like she was going to blow... So i put it in the lipo sack and waited and waited.. It shrank back down to normal size within about 20 minutes. But i have not run it or did anything with it at this time.. The pack was still fully charged when I checked the voltage.. So let this be a warning and not let the packs sit over 30 minutes in there... It is obvious that the warming is causing chemical reaction of some sort for it to swell like this..


----------



## AJS (Mar 21, 2002)

NO HEATING, I'm sure that if allowed there will be accidents because everyone like to chit chat during the day and get something to eat, and Oh I forgot my battery is on the heating pad.

Again if no one does it then there is no advantage.

The BRL doesn't allow it.

Thanks Sonny.


----------



## Fl Flash (May 1, 2003)

katf1sh said:


> no to heating lipos!
> 
> this will be the start of the downfall of a good thing in my oppinion.
> 
> ...


Yeah KatFish!!! :woohoo:


----------



## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

katf1sh said:


> mike blackstock himself screwed up and walked away from his heating pad and his lipo swelled up like a balloon. these gimmiks will one day cause a fire and shut down a local track!


I haven't seen one that the swelling went back down on...that's kind of interesting.

AND I agree w/ the FIRE posibility -- cause we have CLOSE issues to fires with ALL of our electronics these days... ESC's, MOTOR's, BATTS...


----------



## josh1_420 (Mar 23, 2008)

all the lipo manufacturers tell you to pre warm lipo to between 75 and 80 degrees for 2 hours before charging.


----------



## katf1sh (Jan 17, 2002)

75 deg is room temp. if charging in alaska than yes warming than up to 75 is ok in my book. but over 100 deg and i have issues.


----------



## ScottH (Nov 24, 2005)

What is the heating supposed to accomplish?


----------



## Metal (Mar 6, 2004)

One more fricken thing to worry about. I swelled a $90 dollar pack this past weekend too get that extra .1 volts because I was forced to. Why can't we just go Racing and forget the Mr. Wizard crap.

Plain Stupid!

P.S.- A $13 dollar heating pad from Wall-mart will get hot enough to swell a lipo pack!

Deel


----------



## katf1sh (Jan 17, 2002)

scott let's say you have a 7.38 avg volt lipo pack when charged at room temp..

take the same pack and heat it up right before you hit the track...you now have a 7.48 avg volt pack and you lowered the IR..and i'm sorry but even "if" it doesn't help you on the track..in oval it's monkey see monkey do and we all want to do what the fast guys are doing.


deel sorry there was no rule in place for this at the masters.....i feel your pain


----------



## MikeM (Oct 1, 2001)

No advantage if no one does it. NO TO HEATING!


----------



## Jamie Hanson (Dec 3, 2002)

I like Metal, had the same thing happen this weekend. The heating pad on low got the pack to 110degrees. Having them on heat even without charging causes some to swell. One of mine did and one did not. Heating does make a BIG difference. Some cycle #s for you.. An SMC 3200 pack. It was 334 runtime, 7.28 voltage and 8.2 internal. After heating to 108 it then became a 341 runtime, 7.42voltage and 5.7 internal. That is a big difference on the track. If a track does not put a rule in effect for a no heating policy, people will do it. If one guy does it for an advantage, then the second guy will want to do the same thing. 
I think there should be a no heating rule for Lipos. If no one is allowed to do it, then things are fair for everyone and semi-safe again.


----------



## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

I'd like to see a few post some 20 amp numbers, only run down to 300 seconds, since that's probably still more than anyone running 21.5 or 17.5 will actually use.

(I Know everyone likes to see 35 amp numbers...but I like to see what the packs are doing under closer to race conditions)


----------



## Lazer Guy (Sep 12, 2005)

Now back to the real world>>>>>>> :freak:
Round cells have been exploding everywhere for more then 4 years and people are and have been hurt...... 140* is just fine for them... right ???? 
Now some lipo's puffs up and you guys go overboard about it. 
You round cell guys have needed a temp and amp limit for a long long time !! But you get more out of them when they are in a molten state so you just keep doing it .... right ????


----------



## Racin'Jason 8 (Nov 19, 2002)

swtour said:


> Kinda what I was thinking...
> 
> We allow HEAT
> 
> ...


Now we know who is starting the wildfires in California - outdoor Velodrome racers throwing their heated Lipos into the woods.:freak:

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the 8.44V rule fully address this issue?


----------



## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

Jason,

The 8.44v has NOTHING to do with HEAT


The 8.44 deal (we do 8.45) is simply a place to STOP the max input voltage (Lipo's don't PEAK the way a round cell does, they'll just keep TAKING VOLTAGE until they POP, where a ROUND CELL the voltage reaches a peak, then starts going the other way.)

A lipo pack can be charged to 8.44 (or 8.45v) and discharged, we'll say with a 7.05 average discharge voltage at ROOM TEMP

Charge the pack the SAME WAY - and apply HEAT after, or during either way...and the DISCHARGE VOLTAGE will be higher.

I see some guys heating the packs before they charge, then heating them again before they run them, others keeping them warm all the time...and some of us just don't bother...but there IS most certainly an ADVANTAGE to it. (But like ANY advantage...it only exists if NOT EVERYBODY does it)


----------



## katf1sh (Jan 17, 2002)

you understand that the nimh cells were popping during a charge..sometimes well after a charge and sometimes on your way home. there realy wasn't one thing that made thempop..well except the fact that they were realy unsafe for awhile.

I went lipo because nimh cells were junk and i was buying alot of 40.00 packs to compete on a club level each month.

I WENT LIPO SO BUYING 3 PACKS EVERY COUPLE MONTHS WOULD STOP!

IF "WE" START TO ALLOW GAMES WITH LIPO'S I'M BACK BUYING 130.00 LIPO PACKS EVERY COUPLE MONTHS TO RACE AGAIN! SIGH

the moral of this story is.......when do we put our foot down and stop all the games with batteries? or do we just turn the cheek and hope for the best?


----------



## nutz4rc (Oct 14, 2003)

At our tech at local track, we now check voltage and temp. Not over 8.4 or 8 degrees over room temp batt. 

Someone got cute a couple of weeks ago and now we are checking. 

Lipos are one of the best things to come to RC racing lately, why let a few create problems for the many.


----------



## Racin'Jason 8 (Nov 19, 2002)

swtour said:


> Jason,
> 
> The 8.44v has NOTHING to do with HEAT
> 
> ...


O.K., thanks - I thought the heat raised the nominal Voltage.

So, the heat only lowers the IR then allowing more performance?


----------



## Lazer Guy (Sep 12, 2005)

From what I understand charging lipo's when they are cold (under 60*) will shorten the life of lipo's. It is recommended buy the manufacture to keep them at 70 to 80* for you race day and THEY WILL LAST LONGER. 
Have you read what SMC had to say about heating lipo's ???? or MaxAmps, Flight Power ???


----------



## "Frank Ulbrik" (Oct 21, 2004)

Im for heating.. people are going to be warming them up to whatever tech allows anyways! if the rule is 80deg peeps will have them at 80deg.. might as well leave it open then you dont have to worry about someone figure'n out how to heat the cells but keep the case at 80deg!


----------



## Porksalot4L (Nov 4, 2002)

heating is just stupid. why risk the safety. like most people are saying already, if no one is doing it then its not an advantage. hopefully for the Snowbirds (i cant make it there this year) the rule is no heating


----------



## "Frank Ulbrik" (Oct 21, 2004)

either way is fine with me, but if the max temp is 80deg my stick will be at 79.99deg...


----------



## katf1sh (Jan 17, 2002)

again i understand the lipo cell need to be at or around 75 deg all the time in order to maintain shelf life.

THE LIPO CELL DOES NOT "NEED" TO BE 150 DEG OR MORE FROM WHAT I'M HEARING FROM THE OVAL MASTERS!

i'm just as concerned with safety as i am lipo life on this issue.

frank i agree whatever rule a track or event has that is what most "racers" will hit the tech table at...but 80 deg is inside my pants pocket.....110 in my fruit of the looms and anything above is xxx rated!lol


smc and others know that heating a lipo cell is an advantage on the track no doubt...danny at smc is not saying heating the lipo is a "must" nor is he saying it should be allowed...he is just stating a fact that a heated lipo runs better..i know this....i say no heat allowed ..pack should come to tech below 100 deg and i'm good with that...

we race outdoors in florida so yes on some days 100 deg may be close,lol.


----------



## "Frank Ulbrik" (Oct 21, 2004)

from what i have found out the packs perform the same at 110 as they do at 135... there should be a limit to how hot you should be able to get them for saftey reasons. 100 or 110 would be a realistic tech rule!


----------



## Mullins21 (Jan 11, 2007)

Heat'em Up. Can You Imagine How Many People Will Actually Sneak Through Tech Somehow At Snowbirds. Then Somebody Will Get Caught And The Cats Out Of The Bag On The Whole Deal. Same Story Every Year. Its One Less Rule To Worry About Or Try To Get Around For Some.


----------



## Outlaw 44 (May 27, 2003)

Here we go again.

We go to lipos cause they're supposedly more even. Then we have to start messing with those things to get an edge, to the detriment of our safety.

Leave the ****ers alone, no heating pads.


----------



## Outlaw 44 (May 27, 2003)

Imagine for a minute that you're standing outside in your local track's parking lot on a cold winter night as it burns down. Then ask yourself if that extra .05 second per lap you were trying to gain by heating your lipo pack was worth it.

NIMH's popped. They didn't light up everything around them.

If I were a track owner and I saw you with a heating pad you would not race at my track anymore.


----------



## Team T2C (Oct 14, 2008)

Well, just let one LHS get hit with a suit over someone getting hurt and the LHS burning down. 

Then the LHS owner is not getting insurance money because he didnt declare this hazard to the insurance companies. Remember that are already getting bailed out, just give them a reason to raise commercial insurance for every single hobby shop.......

I guess we will all be bashing around cones in the parking lot soon....


Just to sell motor oil it cost me 20K a year in insurance. I cant imagine what insurance will be for extremely hot fire explosions in a enclosed area where we would hope our wives and children are.


Leave it alone make a rule no more than 10 degree -+ from the air temp.


----------



## "Frank Ulbrik" (Oct 21, 2004)

lol, how many of you guys have actually caught a pack on fire? keep an eye on your pack and you will be fine! for a big race like the birds i 100% agree with Caleb!!! Leave the rule open & thats the only way its fair!! No heating for club races is great idea tho!!

since mike started this post im guessing he's try'n to decide weather or not to let heating batts be allowed at the birds this year.. big races YES!!! club races NO!!


----------



## branhap (May 26, 2006)

For those of you against heating, how do you control people putting it outside in the sun to get it heated up?

Fixed temps of 110 won't work, especially here when our summer temps are in the 100s and track temp for paved racing is in the 130-140 range.

Heating should be allowed, up to a maximum of 120 degrees for indoor racing. This is what they used at IIC this past fall and it worked great. They didn't have any issues. [email protected] has stated that heating packs to this temp doesn't really affect battery life, so it's not going to make you go broke.

In either case, set a rule, and make sure your track makes that rule clear.
Paul


----------



## brian0525 (Jan 17, 2005)

Mullins21 said:


> Heat'em Up. Can You Imagine How Many People Will Actually Sneak Through Tech Somehow At Snowbirds. Then Somebody Will Get Caught And The Cats Out Of The Bag On The Whole Deal. Same Story Every Year. Its One Less Rule To Worry About Or Try To Get Around For Some.



bingo!!!

People will heat them wether you catch them or not is the question. All the guys that follow rules will be off the pace and the guys that figure out how to beat the tech table will be a faster, save us all the drama and pitch the temp rule for the birds like Frank and Caleb said but make your local rules whatever you like to suit the track owner.

What happens when you heat the pack while discharging and charging shoot it with a little freeze spray right before going to tech. just the case is cooled and away you go. Bash all you want but you have your heads in the sand if you think this isn't going to happen.

What ever the rules are I will follow but don't just be blind to reality!


----------



## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

The thing I find funny is all the attention and focus on HEATING the packs and safety, yet I would have to say 99.9% of the issues I've seen at our Series and Club races in the past 15 months had NOTHING to do with heating...

Most, but not all of the 'over charging' VOLTAGE issues have come from GFX chargers

Most of the CHARGING related pack swelling came from charger 'USER ERROR' with improper settings, usually on NiCad settings...and luckily they were SEEN all swollen up and pulled from the charger before they were a safety issue, or any kind of fire started. (HAD THESE been hidden in a LIPO SACK - they most likely WOULD have caught fire, cause nobody would have seen them starting to swell.

Chargers I've seen used that have caused the swelling (again, w/ user error)

ORION Flight Charger
Duratrax ICE Charger

Chargers I've seen taking batteries over 8.44 volts

C.E. GFX
FMA Scorpion
DuraTrax ICE
Orion Flight Charger

But I believe virtually EVERY charger out there w/ multi battery type charging capability can/will OVER CHARGE if set in the wrong charging mode.

ARE heated LIPOS less safe than ROUND Cells? We never had much of an issue w/ the ROUND cells TRACKSIDE - other than a FEW exploding cells... and one box of batteries catching FIRE. We had a lot more issue with those just GOING dead for no apparent reason.

The biggest thing - regardless of what you and/or your track does...is PAY ATTENTION to your packs.


----------



## katf1sh (Jan 17, 2002)

ok so throw safety concerns out with the bath water...

i'm still concerned that heating the lipo to 170 degs will shorten the life of the pack?

i'll throw danny an email and see what he thinks. i do not want to buy new lipos every 2 months.


----------



## katf1sh (Jan 17, 2002)

ok i got a reply from danny and the news is grim!

Most racers have been heating them up to 100-110 that being said that seems to improve the chances of the pack/cells to swell up and may hurt the cycle life. 

I reccomend that racers talk to the track owner/race director and mention that heating Lipos shouldn't be allowed. If they are going to check for overcharge it would be very easy to put a temp gun on the pack. This is what the BRL does.

Danny


so joe i got a truce with you and mean this is the nicest way possible...

by allowing the racers in your series to heat the lipos you are allowing them to shorten the cycle life of the lipo packs...you aren't doing them any favors..this is not cost effective racing at it's best...think about it...


----------



## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

> so joe i got a truce with you and mean this is the nicest way possible...
> 
> by allowing the racers in your series to heat the lipos you are allowing them to shorten the cycle life of the lipo packs...you aren't doing them any favors..this is not cost effective racing at it's best...think about it...


Kat

I agree, but they have that choice....if you talk to them about their savings in battery cost in '08 vs ALL the previous years...most still have perfectly fine working batteries after a full year of racing with them...some, the more 'competition minded' still used several packs, and ran them just a couple months, sold them for approx 1/2 of their purchase price, and bought new. Most only had one or two packs at any given time..and the used packs were sold to other racers who are more budget minded...and they were quite happy to get their packs at roughly 1/2 the NEW price.

Battery life was great
Competition was great
Racers are HAPPY, and in turn - that makes me happy.


----------



## Mullins21 (Jan 11, 2007)

Check The Temp On The Pack After You Discharge The Pack After You Run It. Its Well Over 110 Degrees. How Is It Ok To Discharge The Pack In Your Pit After Running It And Not Ok To Heat It Up Before You Run It? If Some Dumbazz Is Heating A Pack To 170 Degrees They Deserve To Have One Catch Flames. Put The Heat Pad In The Lipo Sack And Keep A Check On The Temp Ever So Often. Theres Always That Little Switch That Cuts The Pad Off If It Starts To Get Over 120 And Oh Yeah Its In A Fire Proof Sack. 
On The Local Level One Pack Will Do Just Fine With No Heating Or Overcharging And Last The Owner That Doesnt Want To Buy Another Pack A Very Long Time. But The Other 25% Of Racers Will Continue To Show Up At Big Events With New Packs And Treat Them Like Crap To Get The Very Best Out Of Them No Matter What It Costs Or How Long They Last.


----------



## brian0525 (Jan 17, 2005)

all of the sudden heating turned into 170 deg. what a bunch of bull! 

Fire Proof sack is the only rules you need it is the racers choice if they want the pack to last longer. Guy pitting in his room at a hotel will charge how he wants surface of the pack will cool and advantage is already in the pack.

No way to tech affectively.


----------



## Metal (Mar 6, 2004)

Mullins21 said:


> If Some Dumbazz Is Heating A Pack To 170 Degrees They Deserve To Have One Catch Flames.


I agree with you 100%. But my $1000 I spent to go to the Snowbirds could be ended by this same Dumbazz. How many want to be sent packin after round 2 because some idiot set the sprinkler system off in room 203 and soaked the track. 

I will be this first to admit that we are all adding a little drama to Lipo fires. I have yet to see one.


----------



## Mullins21 (Jan 11, 2007)

Either Way My Cells Will Be 120 And I Can Make The Case 70-80 No Problem, Like I Said People Already Have The Gears Spinning In Their Heads Just Because This Question Was Asked. I Think Mike Likes To See Who Can Come Up With The Most Innovative Ideas For The Snowbirds.


----------



## brian0525 (Jan 17, 2005)

I bet just cause you have a rule that would make no one heating a sure thing and no fires a sure thing to.

Drama!

Got news for folks, eventually this is going to happen and properly heating a pack won't be the cause. The cause will be bumping the voltage to 8.44 with a GFX in nimh mode and the person forgeting they started it and walking away.

You can't make a rule for every dumb mistake possible or we would never have an event.

A rule like this will only cause some people to be off the pace cause they don't stretch the rules and that is it.


----------



## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

Well, since it WAS Mike who asked the question...I'll assume the main focus is FOR the BIRDS

This is the WORLDS Largest R/C Race - This is THE race where EVERYBODY is trying to WIN at ALL cost - My estimation for the 2008 SNOWBIRDS was that WELL Over ONE MILLION Dollars was spent by the participants who atteneded this race.

If it means getting to say "I'm A Snowbirds Champion" there are guys who will do VIRTUALLY Anything to try to gain some slight advantage, because you all know what the competition level is like at that race.

If it were shown that a LIPO PACK would only work for 6 minutes if charged at 230 degrees, but gave you another .2v output, GUYS would ruin a pack EVERY RUN to try to win THAT race...and so would the COMPANIES who sponsor them.

(NOTE: This is MY OPINION, I'm not saying it's RIGHT or WRONG...just the way guys approach THIS Hobby/Sport)


----------



## "Frank Ulbrik" (Oct 21, 2004)

big race= HEAT
club race= NO HEAT


----------



## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

Hey, there are alternatives for BIG races..but some wouldn't like them...

ALL PACKS are SPEC Hand Out Packs - Randomly drawn from a BOX of charged packs.

30-50 packs should be able to handle a race for a couple hundred people.

RUN THEM - REMOVE THEM FROM CAR - RECHARGE THEM - PUT THEM IN THE BOX

You get YOUR pack when you come to tech. No MESSING, No HEATING, No Re-Peaking, STRAP IT IN - PLUG IT IN - RACE! 

Since LIPOS don't loose their performance in rerunning them, if you are running 6-8 car heats, and only using 1500 - 1800 mAh, they would only take 3-4 heats to re-charge. So the 30-50 packs should be able to cover EVERYONE.

(This was how the LIPO Batteries were done at a STRYKER R/C Flying event I went to Last THANKSGIVING.) 

Guys did NOT use their OWN batteries, only the batteries from TECH, there was a IN BOX and a OUT BOX, and tech people then recharged the packs in the IN box...and put them in the OUT BOX when charged.


----------



## "Frank Ulbrik" (Oct 21, 2004)

ok lets come back to reality... Mike will make a decision for the birds and it will be a great race like always!! Heat or no heat isnt gonna make or break the event!


----------



## katf1sh (Jan 17, 2002)

i think mike will be forced to allow heating..

i think club races should stop it now. 

i think it's a damn shame guys are taking winds off motors...messing with the timming rings and heating lipos up to just about a one run pack..and that doesn't include dead shorting the lipos..another thing i was told is happening.

i'm thinking i canno't aford to race "big" races and will be happy running at my local tracks and hope the guys i race with don't feel the need to do all the tricks of the trade to win a club race.

in the end "big" races anything goes..you spent 1000.00 to race the birds and another 500.00 in one run equipment in order to make the show of a toy car race. 

let's pat ourselves on the back now for screwing the pooch yet one more time.

i promise to be the first person on the scene of a lipo fire to piss it out!


----------



## "Frank Ulbrik" (Oct 21, 2004)

personally i dont care what desicion is made but like caleb already stated, him and others will heat these packs reguardless. so its only fair to leave the rule open at the birds... 

Kat, water & gatoraide will be on PRO-Built. lol :thumbsup:


----------



## katf1sh (Jan 17, 2002)

now frank i wouldn't pee on your rides..i might use my stealth ability and steal one from your pit table..(it's true a 350lb phat guy can do it) he he 

i don't hold it against caleb becuase the guy is honest...he will do it and 50 others would as well..and maybe they are better at it than him,lol..it just stinks like a week old shrimp


----------



## "Frank Ulbrik" (Oct 21, 2004)

lol, lets just hope for no fires or wet cars!.. I dont hold that against caleb either, if i know everyone else will be doing it i'll be right there doing it along with caleb! .... If Mike does allow heating the packs i think the majority will be responsible and keep them around 110deg. from everything i have seen firsthand theres not a performance advantage to get them any hotter than that.


----------



## Flipper13 (Jan 13, 2007)

I would be more worried about a lipo pack shorting out in a car after a wreck on the track catching fire--and destroying the track=== than a fire in a room. I would have in place a large metal shovel and a bucket of sand track side for this purpose. flipper


----------



## Lazer Guy (Sep 12, 2005)




----------



## davepull (Aug 6, 2002)

no heating and make a rule right now for the birds. anybody caught heating will be dqued from the race and banned from next years race.

also make a voltage rule 8.40 volts with a .04 allowence so 8.44 that is it period end of story your over you miss your race. 

this crap needs to stop with the lipos. Someone is going to screw up and cause a fire


----------



## cheatr71 (Dec 1, 2006)

i agree, whats wrong with all these drivers for the big races? you have to cheat to win in a toy car. Wasn't this suppose to be a hobby, not some gimmick like nascar. Why allow heating just for the big races?, aren't those places usually expensive to rent to hold a big show? What would happen if a Lipo did catch fire at a big event like Birds, do you think its worth ruining everybodys vacation for .2v? And why not allow at local clubs, we're not good enough to act like the big boy cheaters at big races. well anyway that my opinion and sorry if you big time racers get affended but this sucks we finally have something good for racers and there are people who just can't wait to find a gray area in this hobby. Wouldn't it be more fun to race hot shots door to door for 4min. or are we just looking to lap an entire field and have no competition. Jason


----------



## smokey (Sep 16, 2002)

heating lipo just plain causes more variance.......did i heat it enough or ohhh i guess idid it to much.....i need a new pack


----------



## ScottH (Nov 24, 2005)

cheatr71 said:


> ...there are people who just can't wait to find a gray area in this hobby... Jason


Hobby or not, this is RACING. There are ALWAYS going to be those that push the envelope. If it were not for some of those guys we would not have the ESC's we do, the tires, springs, shocks or car developments that we enjoy today.

It really is simple, if it is a life-safety issue, ban it. If it is only that when it is abused, find that line and make a rule to not cross it. Much like the 8.44v rule. I have seen cars have to set out for .01volt. It is simple be 8.44v or below or do not race. Come up with the temp and stick to it.


----------



## cheatr71 (Dec 1, 2006)

you can not compare manufacturing testing new devices with team drivers to cheating like heating of the lipo batteries, to gain an unfair advantage against some local club racers or newby trying to compete at one of the "BIG SHOWS". Manufactures are not looking to better devices and keeping them for themselves and the unfair advantage. Just make the rule no heating of any kind to the batteries and lets have better closer racing.


----------



## ScottH (Nov 24, 2005)

If there is NO RULE against it, it is not cheating. It is, like you said, grey area or pushing the envelope.


----------



## Jesse Bean (Sep 26, 2004)

couldn't find the exact article on the spur but i recently read manufacturers recomendations to warm the pack to about 100 deg before charging to prevent shock to the pack which can lead to swelling, fire, and reduced life. they also said anything over 120 deg was null effect and over 140 was damaging. 
I think a rule of 110 limit is sufficient but to make a rule without actually educating yourself could be just as bad. A limit will keep it safe and prevent the people who think if a little is good then a lot is better from causing a fire. btw Mike Blackstock is entitled to a few human moments too,lol.


----------



## Madball (Mar 22, 2003)

swtour said:


> Jason,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I got one for you. If all Lipo chargers stop at 8.40 +/- .01 why would you have a rule to force everyone to figure out how to get the pack up to 8.44-5.?


----------



## ScottH (Nov 24, 2005)

Because someone would figure out how to circumvent the auto shut-off. You stop checking for that max voltage and there will be a lot of racers pushing it way up.

We are RACERS, we want to go as fast as we possibly can, sometimes at no matter the cost. It is what makes us tick. If there is no boundry, well it is just a mess.


----------



## SJacquez (Sep 28, 2001)

Madball said:


> I got one for you. If all Lipo chargers stop at 8.40 +/- .01 why would you have a rule to force everyone to figure out how to get the pack up to 8.44-5.?


It also depends on the calibration of the charger and meter.


----------



## Jesse Bean (Sep 26, 2004)

you know what's nice is the snowbirds add on every page. nothin like a little t n a on your favorite forums,lol. Thanks Boylan!


----------



## Promatchracer (Sep 28, 2001)

Some one posted earlier that Lipos don't like being cold 
I have mine in my race trailer and Live in Lovely cold Mi 
Do I need to take them out of the trailer every race and bring them inside 
I have 8+ lipos so I don't want to ruin them and be out over grand $$
LMK


----------



## CClay1282 (Jan 5, 2006)

I have heard not to leave them in the cold. again, that is just what i heard.


----------



## Lazer Guy (Sep 12, 2005)

Promatchracer said:


> Some one posted earlier that Lipos don't like being cold
> I have mine in my race trailer and Live in Lovely cold Mi
> Do I need to take them out of the trailer every race and bring them inside
> I have 8+ lipos so I don't want to ruin them and be out over grand $$
> LMK


I would suggest you contact the manufacturer of your lipo's as I did, It can take time to get an answer from them. 
I bring mine inside in the winter.


----------



## brian0525 (Jan 17, 2005)

puting a full charge in a lipo that is cold is the thing that hurts the life of the battery and to be safe not leaving them in a cold enviroment would be a smart move.


----------



## josh1_420 (Mar 23, 2008)

Promatchracer said:


> Some one posted earlier that Lipos don't like being cold
> I have mine in my race trailer and Live in Lovely cold Mi
> Do I need to take them out of the trailer every race and bring them inside
> I have 8+ lipos so I don't want to ruin them and be out over grand $$
> LMK


lithium batteries of any kind do not like the cold I would not leave them in your race trailer at all even during the summer it might get to hot I transport my lipo's to and from the track in the inside pocket of my jacket.The cold is not something that may damage your battery it is something that will kill your battery every time.


----------



## 69mkitmine (May 31, 2007)

The whole purpose of any rule is either safety, expense, or to keep the competition tight. If a matcher says that it will shorten the life of the pack, I'm gonna bet my money that it will. 

It looks like from the previous posts that heating goes against two of the three... safety, and expense. Some people will be deterred if either of these are not addressed. Some will be deterred if not allowed to squeeze every ounce of voltage (average), by any, and every means. The guys that want to keep heating are betting on common sense to keep everyone safe. Hey guys, the sad fact is, that common sense isn't all that common. That being said, no heat.

If someone can heat a pack then cool the case and keep it at a consistent temp through tech needs to be able to run it. The Lipo cells are denser than the air around it so as soon as the case is cooled, the hot cells inside are warming it up. If they're going to do that Mike needs to hold this thing in Vegas. Gambling is legal there. LOL


----------



## katf1sh (Jan 17, 2002)

perfect post 69

do not leave lipo packs outside in weather below 65 deg...those instructions came on my lipo pack.


----------



## Tommygun43 (Nov 17, 2002)

I let my single cell sit out in my car for a couple hours last night. It was about 25 degrees out.







I'll call it testing.

Dang it's barely above 65 in my house!


----------



## Lazer Guy (Sep 12, 2005)

So it looks like we all think summer time lipo temp's are OK in the winter.

This is what I found with my lipo's
Small heating pad on low____110* to 115*
My pocket on the way to the track ____ 85*
6" X 8" Repti Therm UTH Item# RH-4, 8W ___ 95*
Two 12+hours Mega(hand) Warmers(one on top one on bottom)___ 110*


----------



## katf1sh (Jan 17, 2002)

not needing to buy any warmers...priceless

not needing to buy a lipo pack sooner than I need to ... priceless

i know i run for smc and i'm a bias a hole 99.9% of the time when it comes to smc products


BUT...take this for what it's worth

i went lipo the end of september 08

i have been racing alot (for me anyways) and have been racing indoors and outdoors in weather from 95 deg to 65 deg and i have yet to balance charge my lipo and until a few nights ago i have yet to use more than 1700 mah ..i would practice and come back and hit charge...

i heard rumors thata lipo pack drops in performance like a nimh cell in a months time of racing...


soooo i took out my gfx and cycled my lipo pack at 35 amps without heating it...

pack when new

540 RT

7.39 v

6.5 IR

pack after 50 cycles on the track

500 rt

7.38 v

6.5 IR

it has never been heated or charged over 12 amps, it has never hit 6 volts until i cycled it.


i can tell you i have not had a 4 cell pack in the last 3 years after 50 cycles even come close to holding up like that!

yes lipo "CAN" be awesome!


----------



## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

Katf1sh, and others...

I can tell you that over 75% of the people I know have had the same results or better w/ the ORION lipos, and we've been using then for about a YEAR longer...and they are still running strong, and several will be continuing to use the same packs for their 2nd FULL season in February.

MY Personal LIPO Budget (And NO I don't get FREE or even DISCOUNTED products from ORION, as ORION has sponsored our SERIES, not ME personally.) for 2007/2008 for both myself and my son was

2 NEW - Orion 3200s @ 79.95 + TAX local hobby shop = $179.29 w/ tax
2 USED - Orion 3200s @ $55.00ea shipped = $110
2 USED - Orion 3200s @ $45.00ea shipped = $90
1 USED - Orion 3200 @ $25.00 (from local racer) $25
2 USED - Orion 2400s @ $25.00ea shipped $50

9 LIPO Packs - TOTAL = $454.29 to power upto 6 cars on a race day, multiple race days those batteries were loaned out during the original class testing in late '07. 

These batteries have been used approx. 28 race weekends in 2008 alone, plus any non-race testing days.

3 of them are now DEAD
All 3 of the DEAD ones were due to USER error - one over discharged, in testing and one over discharged (by my son - doing INSANE SPEED RUN testing)and still takes a charge...but has very low voltage output , the third one suffered from a MAJOR crash, and broke an internal connection.

The other (6) packs are still going strong, and at least 5 of them will be in use tomorrow for our local club racing...and the 3200s will be used the following weekend on the VELO.

*It's been SWEET!* and that's about 1/3rd of my normal battery budget for a 12 month period.


----------



## 69mkitmine (May 31, 2007)

Good post for the merits of running Lipo in General. I hoped long ago that they would be all that was promised. Turns out they were that and more.

Looks like if you treat them right that they will return the favor, safely as well.
I have one of those vintage 3200 Orion Packs that you speak of with about 7 race days on it. If you need another shoot me a PM.


----------



## swtour (Oct 8, 2001)

69,

since we're running the Orion packs exclusively (3400's in '09) we do have a few guys looking for either 3400's or 3200's (there's no performance difference)

Shoot me a email w/ a price, I have at least one driver looking for some right now...


----------



## doormanron (Jan 14, 2003)

I have a portable KILN I use to heat my packs


----------



## 69mkitmine (May 31, 2007)

LOL...a KILN..haha:thumbsup:


----------



## ScottH (Nov 24, 2005)

Yeah he can heat up batteries and fire his pottery at the same time. WIN-WIN.


----------

